Hey Guys,
Long time lurker first time poster, been interested in these things for a while now.
Ive come up with a potential idea for a simple magnetic motor that's been around for ages, see attachment so you know what idea im talking about.
instead of using a superconductor for the purple shield i was thinking of using thin mumetal with and outside coating of something diamagnetic such as pyrolytic carbon or bismuth.
If you get the right ratio on the shield will it will cancel the rotor magnets attraction to the mumetal while shielding it from the opposite rotor magnet until it repels when it moves away from the shield.
no need for a superconductor.. am i on the right track???? or am i missing something.
Rich
Quote from: V-Spec on January 26, 2011, 03:31:33 AM
Hey Guys,
Long time lurker first time poster, been interested in these things for a while now.
Ive come up with a potential idea for a simple magnetic motor that's been around for ages, see attachment so you know what idea im talking about.
instead of using a superconductor for the purple shield i was thinking of using thin mumetal with and outside coating of something diamagnetic such as pyrolytic carbon or bismuth.
If you get the right ratio on the shield will it will cancel the rotor magnets attraction to the mumetal while shielding it from the opposite rotor magnet until it repels when it moves away from the shield.
no need for a superconductor.. am i on the right track???? or am i missing something.
Rich
In that configuration, the mumetal won't shield it from the opposite rotor magnet due to the same poles on both rotors. These two videos will show you the correct configurations in order to shield or divert the flux properly, http://www.youtube.com/user/gravityblock#p/u/24/_81SxByRNR8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFgMB5ezsE
GB
Quote from: gravityblock on January 26, 2011, 04:50:43 AM
In that configuration, the mumetal won't shield it from the opposite rotor magnet due to the same poles on both rotors. These two videos will show you the correct configurations in order to shield or divert the flux properly, http://www.youtube.com/user/gravityblock#p/u/24/_81SxByRNR8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFgMB5ezsE
GB
that's a very interesting effect!!! i just tested it out now!
so if you're saying to alternate the polarity for every second rotor magnet to promote the shielding effect of the mu? sounds like it would help and not effect why it works
bismuth is probly easier to work with and cheaper than pyrolytic graphite, im not sure of the densities required to have a strong enough diamagnetic effect.
anyone done this or tryed something like this before?
Quote from: gravityblock on January 26, 2011, 04:50:43 AM
In that configuration, the mumetal won't shield it from the opposite rotor magnet due to the same poles on both rotors. These two videos will show you the correct configurations in order to shield or divert the flux properly, http://www.youtube.com/user/gravityblock#p/u/24/_81SxByRNR8 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJFgMB5ezsE
GB
The effect you show in the video seems to work just as well on regular metal as well as mumetal.
Hi Rich,
The problem with bismuth is that it has a magnetic permeability very very near to that of the air, this means that its 'shielding' effect can only come from its thickness or volume in space: this means you could equally use air gap as well, no need for bismuth.... unfortunately. Though pyrolytic graphite is even more diamagnetic than bismuth but still not enough for meaningful shielding effect, this is my opinion of course.
Would like to show you an old thread here with an interesting idea from a ex-member, m668004: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=309.0
The drawing he showed is an animated one, if you download and watch in a normal picture viewer, the inner two magnets are rotated together to make the lower end of the soft iron bar magnetic or nonmagnetic. The input energy for the rotation seems to be only to defeat axle friction and air resistance, once the two magnets are speeded up.
Gyula
i have attached a rough design.... very rough, been trying to visualize all of the forces in 3d which are present.
it shows a top down view of the 2 wheels with magnets, the gears to keep them aligned. The mumetal plate shield could be soft iron as well and the 2 half cone like diamagnetic materials, could also be pyrolitic carbon.
There is also a side drawing of the plate with the 2 half cones.
The point of this all being to totally cancel the repelling effect of the magnets on opposite sides of the rotors up until the critical point so they fly away creating motion.
The forces i see at work here are (and help me if im missing anything)
- The attraction of the magnets to the mumetal or iron plate (depends on the material and force and distance of the magnets)
- The diamagnetic repeling effect on the magnets countering the attraction and hopefully canceling it (depends on the thickness and type of material)
The magnets force on each rotor is negated because they're fixed to the rotor
The magnets force on the opposite magnet rotor is negated because of the size of the permeable shield.
i have set the rotor magnets to alternating poles but always repelling to promote the effect noted earlier in this thread.
ive seen youtube videos of neo magnets suspended between diamagnetic materials so im hoping the thickness of the diamagnetic material can make this idea feasible.
There is maths involved in all of the forces mentioned and i cant see why this will not spin if all forces leading up to the critical point are canceled / neutralised
Im looking for someone to seriously assist me with the mathematics part of it put some numbers together for me and will provide a modest monetary donation in advance.
Thickness of permeable metal, strength and distance of magnets and most importantly thickness of diamagnetic semi cones.
i know its a long shot because in fields like this the math usually doesn't fit. But all effects are hopefully known and can be calculated. I want to make this happen.
Rich
Remember trying various shields a few years back on this idea.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/cmps_index.php?pageid=cogs
Never did update the page, but remember trying different shields, static and on the rotor.
Quote from: e2matrix on January 26, 2011, 01:38:23 PM
The effect you show in the video seems to work just as well on regular metal as well as mumetal.
Yes, it's a property of ferromagnetic materials and isn't limited to mumetal. The important thing to remember is the metal must be thick enough or have a high enough permeability to hold the flux. Also, if the metal is too thin to divert all the flux, then you can try weaker magnets or possibly increasing the distance. If the metal is over-saturated, then the shielding effect will decrease due to flux leakage.
GB
im worried that the diamagnetic material will have to be too thick for this to work
anyone with experience melting and using bismuth and pyrolitic graphite in shielding / canceling application.
any mathematicians, i suspect most i talk to will automatically dismiss what im doing. to hell with them, just do my maths!
Rich
Quote from: V-Spec on January 26, 2011, 03:31:33 AM
...
If you get the right ratio on the shield will it will cancel the rotor magnets attraction to the mumetal while shielding it from the opposite rotor magnet until it repels when it moves away from the shield.
...
The magnetic flux is conservative. Whatever the environment (mu-metal or air) the field lines loop and there is always the same number of lines i.e the same flux which is thus balanced when the magnets are approaching or when they move away.
A magnetic field is never "shielded". It is deflected. The field lines are never broken, they follow the so-called "shield", for example a piece of mu-metal.
In other words the field gradient in which a magnet "falls" is the same as the field gradient from which the magnet have to escape. As the work done to move in a potential gradient from A to B is path independent, it is the same, sign except, as to move from B to A. The energy is balanced, there is no gain. I guess that in your particular setup, the equilibrium position in which your motor will hang up, is when two opposing magnets are near and a bit beyond the end of the mu-metal "shield": at this position, the back force of attraction by the mu-metal will be dominant and will cancel the repulsive force of the magnets ahead and the forward attracting force of the magnets behind.
We always see the same error of reasoning again and again in each pmm. There is not one differing from another. To use paramagnetic materials doesn't change any thing.
CLaNZeR - i have seen your many replications, any of them made and tried with diamagetic materials?
exnihiloest - this seems to be the force im missing, the magnets on the rotor attracting to the corner / edge of the ferromagnetic material, i didnt think that unless the magnet was touching the ferromagnetic material that the attraction forces would be any more at end of where the mu-metal stops.
Will the mu-metal become magnetised even if the magnets are not touching the metal and therefore the magnets attract more to where the mu-metal stops and the diamagnetic material continues? I thought the magnets would attract and it would contain the flux on either side. Is this correct or will the flux lines be focused and attracted more to the corner of the ferromagnetic material on the edge, i think this is what exnihiloest is saying? any one else care to explain and help me understand.
i know the field of each magnet will always loop but extended the thickest gradient part of the diamagnetic material past the mu-metal to cancel the forces.
maybee i need to upload a picture of this critical point to further understand whats going on
or use a high permiable material shield with different hysteresis, coersive and magnetostriction properties.
any thoughts?
jus thinking out loud, learning with expierence
any materials that are highly permiable but non ferromagnetic?
any way to naturally or electrically augment the flux of a permanent magnet?
Rich
stefan?? im just a guy trying to make a magnet motor, can mods please delete?
translation:
Hi Stefan,
so slowly you make a fool of yourself in your own forum!
Also you have already postulated a lot, even with video, but nothing
stayed away because the evidence used for OU.
What struck me in recent years with you, you begeisterst
up again and again for something else, sometimes there are levers, sometimes it has
to do magnets, in between there was time HHO, it was just
Capacitors, and now it's the water ....
When dealing with so many things, nothing can with rum
come, it is better if you work hard on a project
convinced of the one is.
How many things have been posted here already, without evidence, why have
not you deleted?
I just saw that again entries were deleted, but listen
finally with the manure, thereby destroying the forum and the
Truth!
You even post but 3x the same crap, and delete the image!
Your forum lives of OU or PM discus ion, was glad that a lot
The discussion has, for a real PM sobalt the world sees is
your forum dead
Of course, one comes to expect more, you can calculate everything,
but if you do not know what you like to calculate, because
not understand the connections, it can not.
You may like to delete this post also lock me out of me,
let me not prohibit the mouth and such nonsense as
@ Pp posting I can not cover.
In contrast to Wunderlich (pp) I do not need your forum to
To advertise because I have studied what this "stupid" person.
If you and makes pp @ common cause, there are 15,000, - from
Forum, 40000, - by Wunderpiss, so you have 7500, - OU, reflects
a nice holiday with the World Cup.
Instead of the video link on the home page I would write in bold type:
Here's Wunderlich law, I obey only him!
PS: You just can not shut up, you've blocked me
because I wrote the truth that you do not want to read,
I sign up faster than you can block me and
will always post the text so that everyone sees as
coward you are!
Quote from: V-Spec on January 30, 2011, 09:48:09 PM
anyone with experience melting and using bismuth and pyrolitic graphite in shielding / canceling application.
Rich
CLaNZeR making some Bismuth Toroid Cores, http://www.youtube.com/user/Seacrhing2008#p/u/45/NZF1FYaEdqc
GB
I don't know anything about mu metal but when I asked a mu metal company if shielding one pole of a magnet would increase the pulling power of the other pole (in effect make a magnet stronger) they said no and sent me this pdf paper on the subject.