Hello all!
I'm new here, and this is my 1st post.
I am actually an electronics tech, but it has been many years since I have worked in my field, and I have forgotten ALOT since back in the day when I was even designing my own circuits, making my own PCB's, and "inventing" new things...LOL.
What I'm wanting to do is to create my own wind generator, nothing huge, just to generate some watts to charge the few Deep Cycle Marine cells that I have, which are currently connected to an el-cheapo Chinese solar regulator, and only two 15 watt solar cells to charge them.
I'm hoping that I can build a cheap and dirty wind generator to add a bit more charge to the system, and eventually, when I get more serious (and have more MONEY) I'll actually expand on the system, and make something worthwhiloe, that actually WILL save me a bit of money on the monthly power bill.
Until then, I just want to start off small, get a firm grip on what I'm doing, and build it up as I can.
I have a fairly good idea how things work, but have forgotten many things, so I'm hoping someone here can set me on the right path and get me building something that is not too complex, and will just generate some power.
I actually have a very small permanent magnet motor, it's a Baldor 90VDC 1725RPM .04TE HP .25AMP permanent magnet brush motor, that when I simply connect an LED and a current limiting resistor to the power supply leads to the motor, and spin it with my fingers, the LED glows brightly, so I know it will generate a fair amount of current, and I'm hoping I can for not utilize this small motor for a generator, even though it is really small, just until I can afford to buy a proper motor to make some real current with.
I know the "proper" way to do things is to start off with the "right" things first, but in the way I'm going to attach the motor to a bearing and shaft driven prop, i can easily just replace the motor later with a better one.
what I want to know is "how" to connect it to the charge controller? Do I need to put a diode in line with the output of the motor? If so, where?
I notice that the LED only lights up if I turn the motor in one direction, indicating that the polarity will change depending on which way the shaft turns, so which way "should" it turn, clockwise, or counter-clockwise??
Do I need to worry about the motor spinning too fast and burning something out, or is that not a concern?
I've just never used a motor to generate electricity before, so I am wondering what the basic circuit is to connect it to the charge controller, and to ensure it not only is protected properly, but also to ensure that I don't either damage the motor or that charge controller, or whatever else I don't even know that I don't even know!
I'm sure that there is something written "somewhere" in this forum, I "did" look first before asking, so please forgive me if I'm asking the same redundant question that everyone keeps asking over and over!
Thanks!
Chris ;)
I assume that the motor terminals are marked poitive and negative . Connect it to a battery and note which way it turns . Arrange if possible for it to turn in that direction when wind driven . I f you want to charge a battery you need a diode in line , and also an amp meter . In order to charge , the generator voltage needs to exceed the battery voltage . Connect the positive motor terminal via the diode to the battery positive . connect the motor negative to the battery negative .Break the circuit at any point and connect the amp meter accross the gap . Hope this helps .
Quote from: neptune on January 28, 2011, 08:11:52 AM
I assume that the motor terminals are marked poitive and negative . Connect it to a battery and note which way it turns . Arrange if possible for it to turn in that direction when wind driven . I f you want to charge a battery you need a diode in line , and also an amp meter . In order to charge , the generator voltage needs to exceed the battery voltage . Connect the positive motor terminal via the diode to the battery positive . connect the motor negative to the battery negative .Break the circuit at any point and connect the amp meter accross the gap . Hope this helps .
Thanks for your reply.
Can you be a bit more "specific about what I need to do please?
The diode, what kind of diode should I use, what voltage and current rating? Also, I have a few multimeter laying around, if I connect one inline to monitor current, "why" am I doing that? What am I looking for?
Which lead should the diode be on, the positive, or negative, or both??
Is there a specific current I'm supposed to be watching for, meaning to ensure it does not fall below "X" number, or rise above a certain number also?
I thought I needed a charge controller to be between the batteries and the wind generator (which I have), do I still need a meter inline if I have the charge controller?
Thanks!
Chris ;)
The diode needs to be cabable of carrying the max charge current which is dependent on wind speed , state of battery and max output of generator .With home built system , you will need to experiment a bit . Fit the diode [ start with a 5 amp diode ] in the positive lead . To check that the diode is connected right way round , connect your generator to a lamp or led with diode in positive lead . If it is right way round , the lamp will light when generator is spun . In a low power system , a charge controller is not important . I have no experience of these , but it may be that if you use a charge controller you don't need a diode . You would use an ampmeter or multimeter to monitor the charge current to see if it works , and how well . The purpose of a charge cotroller is to prevent overcharge of the batteries .I would guess that at this stage that will be the least of your problems . The purpose of the diode is so that if the wind stops , your batteries can not discharge by "motoring" the generator .
Thanks Neptune for that info, it's all basic stuff, stuff that I SHOULD know myself, being involved with electronics for so long. The truth is, I'm disabled due to a brain injury, and my memory is severely effected, so it's very difficult for me to remember certain things. Oddly, I could calculate the wavelength of a helical wound antenna at any given frequency, but I can't seem to add 2+2...LOL
I get the diode things, about ensuring battery drain does not occur, but I was wondering if it needed to be on BOTH leads, or just one lead, and if there was a certain "standard" about which direction the turbine spun in. Obviously, which ever direction that it spins dictates the polarity of the voltage generated, and I would connect the proper leads accordingly based on that polarity, but what I also was wondering was what if the prop spun tremendously fast, and ALOT of current was generated?
Is there a chance that the motor would over heat or anything, or that "too much" current could be created for this system?
I like a charge controller, because it STOPS the amount of current from entering the batteris if the batteries are full, thus preventing over charging. I actually DO have those other two 15 watt solar panels currently connected to the batteries via that charge controller, and just wanted to add this wind power to that power input.
I'm really just wondering what measures need to be taken to ensure that this system is built properly, and won't be a fire hazard, and want to ensure nothing blows up, over heats, or otherwise destroys itself if the wind gets to be too much, as it is REALLY windy here in Nova Scotia Canada right now!
Also, eventually, I'll be pulling this tiny motor, and replacing it with a larger unit eventually, and wanted to have a system already set up to accommodate that when the time comes.
I didn't want to confuse things by asking too many questions at once, as my questions don't "all" seem to get answered that way, but additionally, I was wondering which is the better way to go, once I get serious about this later, should I wind my own generator type device using high powered magnets, or, should I purchase a permanent DC motor on ebay or something?
Which will yield the best power, a motor, or a home would generator with magnets? Which is the best route to go?
Chris ;)
If you have the tools and skills , I would say a home made permanent magnet generator , home built, is the way to go . Brush motors are not designed to run 24-7 and brushes wear out . For any rotor larger than 2 feet diameter you are going to need a governor[ furling tail mechanism ] There are some excellent designs at Otherpower.com ., To connect your generator up use the heaviest wire you can find , remember cable losses =I2R . If you live in area of high average wind , you WILL need a charge controller . My experience is limited to small home built systems bback in the 1970s . but am happy to help if I can .
While a basic DC electric motor might work to generate some current it
would need to be a DC motor that has a internal mechanical commutator -
semiconductor controllers not designed for that function (and most aren't)
will not work.
Blades spin only one direction, DC generate in only one direction with unidirectional
shaft rotation so only one (high power Schottky) or Germanium diode is required.
There are number of different solutions for a wind generator. In general energy
will need to be buffered in a battery bank because average wind speed is low
and highly variable. In general I would stick to a design already proven for
wind energy application;
BTW really large windturbines have automatic transmissions.
a) vehicle like alternator - regulated by modulatable field strength regulator.
- easy but not optimised. Speciality regulators are available for alt. energy apps.
b) vehicle alternator with rotor field replaced by permanent magnets -
(only regulation then has to throw away excess energy as heat)
Raw unloaded voltages can exceed 1KVDC from a twelve volt alternator!
c) a synchronous alternator from a low RPM multipole AC motor. AC grid
interactive only. Power only switched on above certain rpm's - runs meter
backwards.
d) a specially designed multipole DC wind generator. There are a couple
of these designs available out there.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Thanks everyone for your help. Basically, what I'm getting out of this is to NOT use my DC motor for this application, and build something that is "proper" and recognized as a standard design.
but can't I just use this motor until it eventually burns out it's bearings or useful "mechanical" life, or the brushes wear out ect?
I really hate it when I have some components for something that "could" be put to use, and are better than nothing, but people all say that it's a waste of time and effort. Isn't SOME free electricity with ZERO money invested better than NO free electricity, or having to invest money you don't really have right now?
i say YES, it is.
Bit that's not to say that I WON'T invest later, but only when I can afford to.
I just want to make use of the things around the house, even if they aren't optimal, just because I already "own" them, and THEN I'm gonna get serious about building something!!
So, when I DO build a generator, which you've given me GREAT info about (thank you very much!), where is the CHEAPEST place to buy the magnets, and what would be considered a GOOD price for them?
Also, what "size" magnets do I need, what "N" number rating should I use, and which "N" number is the "lowest" I can get away with using, and also, how many coils of wire, turns of wire, and gauge of wire should I use?
Basically, I guess I'm looking for a cheap and easy design to build a magnet generator where you would mount the magnets on a spinning circle of wood or something, and have the coils mounted on a non-spinning platform.
I don't want to build anything too big or expensive, just something that will charge batteries and give at least as much, or maybe a bit more than the flimsy 30 watts of solar cells I currently have connected to the batteries!
thanks again I really appreciate your guidance!
Chris ;)
As I said earlier , you need to experiment a bit . By all means have a play with what you have . Remember batteries can bbe dangerous . Have a fuse in the generator circuit . Otherpower.com have several permanent magnet designs with recomended magnets . Shop around . Above all stay safe and have fun!
The equipment you need to make and store electricity will always cost more than buying electricity from the local utility.
Quote from: brian334 on January 28, 2011, 03:46:39 PM
The equipment you need to make and store electricity will always cost more than buying electricity from the local utility.
Then what's the point to all this then if it costs more??
Quote from: neptune on January 28, 2011, 03:45:51 PM
As I said earlier , you need to experiment a bit . By all means have a play with what you have . Remember batteries can bbe dangerous . Have a fuse in the generator circuit . Otherpower.com have several permanent magnet designs with recomended magnets . Shop around . Above all stay safe and have fun!
Thanks Neptune! I appreciate your help!!
hi,
have a look at this website....
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/
he even has a few kits for sale too. mostly, for you, it's good reading.
tom
Does it matter what size the magnets are, what shape they are, either round or rectangular? What about the "N" rating, what is the minimum "N" rating that is suitable for making a generator?
And wire, how many turns in what gauge?
I've been looking at many plans online, but none of them really tell you this info, they just "show" wire being wrapped around a jig, but don't say exactly how many turns, or any of that stuff.
Thanks
Chris ;)
Here is a video tutorial
Look for flux generators
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bseit46ezOo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bseit46ezOo&feature=related)
Good to see knowledgeable kind people offering you advice . Brian334 probably has a point that grid electricity costs less than home brew . However ,the experience you gain outweighs the monetary cost , but you already have the batteries , and how do you put a price on fun? You already have 30 watts of solar panels . In a high wind area you should easily be able to build a 50 to `100 watt generator from junk , or what you own . I know nothing about grades of magnets , seek advice elsewhere . How many turns of what gauge of wire? First decide what output voltage . Depends on your batteries . Build your generator , and wind and fit one coil , using what wire you have .Measure output volts . Thus work out volts per turn , and this will tell you how many turns you need . I f you have a twelve volt system , with say 6 coils in single phase , you will need about 2 volts per coil with the generator turning at the rpm expected in a 8 to 10 mph wind . What rpm is that> depends on the rotor .
Remember that the energy in the wind is proportional to the cube of the wind speed . What that means is that every time the windspeed doubles ,the power available increases by a factor of 8 .You are going to need a governor
If the legendary Patrick K has written on a subject, it is usually
worth a good read first:
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapter14.pdf
page 14 onwards.
Quote from: neptune on January 29, 2011, 09:46:34 AM
Good to see knowledgeable kind people offering you advice . Brian334 probably has a point that grid electricity costs less than home brew . However ,the experience you gain outweighs the monetary cost , but you already have the batteries , and how do you put a price on fun? You already have 30 watts of solar panels . In a high wind area you should easily be able to build a 50 to `100 watt generator from junk , or what you own . I know nothing about grades of magnets , seek advice elsewhere . How many turns of what gauge of wire? First decide what output voltage . Depends on your batteries . Build your generator , and wind and fit one coil , using what wire you have .Measure output volts . Thus work out volts per turn , and this will tell you how many turns you need . I f you have a twelve volt system , with say 6 coils in single phase , you will need about 2 volts per coil with the generator turning at the rpm expected in a 8 to 10 mph wind . What rpm is that> depends on the rotor .
Remember that the energy in the wind is proportional to the cube of the wind speed . What that means is that every time the windspeed doubles ,the power available increases by a factor of 8 .You are going to need a governor
Thanks again Neptune for your info, I REALLY appreciate it. i know your doing your best to advise me, I am actually actually just VERY disappointed and frustrated with myself, as years ago, it was ME who people came to for this kind of advice, but since my brain injury, and memory loss issues, i cannot remember most things, and on top of that, I have issues actually "reading" things, and getting them to "stick" upstairs, it's embarrassing, but I have to be truthful about my situation, otherwise, you'll think I'm just being a jerk or something asking the same repetitive questions, and trying to get YOU do do all the work for me, as it will look like I'm just being LAZY when you give me the tools I need to figure something out, and then i turn around and ask YOU to do that for me! LOL
Sorry about that, it's a struggle, but I try not to let it get to me, or give up, and i have a wife and child to look after, and part of being a good provider in my opinion, is having a backup plan in case the lights go out, and who knows, the lights "may" go out permanently in the VERY near future, if all that 2012 stuff they are saying has anything to it.
Scientifically, (none of that new age crap) we are heading towards a direct path towards the gigantic black hole in the center of our galaxy, and when that happens, the scientists "think" it may cause a tremendously large electromagnetic pulse, MANY THOUSANDS OF TIMES that of what our sun is capable of, which in itself, is powerful enough to FRY all electronics on the planet.
So it may be that the ONLY people who have ANY electricity at all anymore after an event like that are the people who "know" how to make their own, and that is just "one" of many many different scenarios that may lead to the lights permanently going out. Another is a VERY REAL possibility, which is the use of EM weapons against our cities. It's real folks, I've worked on the systems MYSELF, back when I "could" effectively do my job, and design antennas and calculate their radiation patterns. One EM pulse blast from an E-Bomb would totally take out ALL electronics for good within a 150 mile range. That is why I have a Geiger counter, a ham radio, CB radio, and other useful electronics devices in a box lined with 3 inches of lead. I also have my solar batteries in lead lined boxes. You can get the lead sheets for flashing around chimneys from back in the old days, or at scrap metal yards, trust me, you might not regret shielding your electronics that you value!
Anyhow, back to the wind power thing.
I can salvage the wire needed from an old washing machine motor, and maybe even convert it to a generator by attaching magnets to its stator, or internal rotor, whatever it's called, and then inserting new windings of wire around that mounted permanently inside that don't spin, who knows, but I can at least get the wire there.
The magnets are another story, I've been looking, and they are EXPENSIVE!!
So, IF I could find the magnets CHEAPLY, and IF I could figure out how this all works in one easy plan, THEN I might be able to build something, but there are SO many plans that call for "specific" items that they built it with that I could never get, I would have to understand the concepts myself, in order to make my own design fro what I "do" have laying around.
for example,I noticed that in one design, the guy mounted the coils of wire to a piece of circular plywood, but under the could, he cut a large groove in the plywood, and inserted long thin pieces of metal, that were coated on one side, and mentioned something about "eddy currents". Am I to understand that in addition to just the coils, you need to have some kind of metal under it, around it, or have the coils wrapped around a ferrous material in order to help store the induced electricity?
I understand transformer action, but am still trying to understand the concept of what we are trying to do.
It's obvious that when a conductor like a wire coil cut the flux field of a magnet at a certain angle, it induces an electrical current flow in that conductor, but is more than just the couls of wire needed?
also, i'm confused about the "phases", and how they are connected, and WHY they are needed, and in addition to that, I've read in some designs that one magnet is mounted south down, then the next with north down, then south, then north, ect, alternating them, why?
I've noticed the same thing with the coils, some are mounting them all in one direction, while others are going clockwise, then counter-clockwise and alternating them all.
So what are we trying to accomplish here and why? It's obvious that alternating the directions result in a negative swing, then positive swing voltage, but WHY are they doing that?
What is the RIGHT way to orient the magnets and coils to one another, and what about the metal behind the coils?
After reading all of that, i became MORE confused than when i "thought" I understood it all!
I "thought" the coils all went in one direction, all equal to one another, and the magnets all were mounted with the same pole facing towards the coils, is that not correct?
A little direction here would be GREAT at this point...LOL
thanks!
Chris ;)
Chris,
you must have missed this from the other link i sent...
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm
have a read through it (short). it will answer a lot of your earlier questions.
i realize we are just scraping the top of the subject, but you need to get a few things understood before going futher. this will help.
tom
Quote from: tbird on January 29, 2011, 04:05:48 PM
Chris,
you must have missed this from the other link i sent...
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm
have a read through it (short). it will answer a lot of your earlier questions.
i realize we are just scraping the top of the subject, but you need to get a few things understood before going futher. this will help.
tom
Ooopps, I DID miss that, sorry, i don't think it refreshed properly in my browser, it seems to keep doing that on this forum I've noticed for some reason!
Thanks, I'll read it!
Chris ;)
This is a tough venture you will not do it without a home workshop that I promise.
If you want something that is small scale to start your project learning go for a motor type design but I suggest you go big or go home if you are serious enough to jump in jump all in ...
I have tried wind blue power and ended up as a failure now there design is better hand has a stainless steel shaft may be worth the cash now but I'd shy away from it due to the bearings in your alternator being ferrous still seems to provide a lot of drag on this unit.
Anyhow I think the best possible solution shared with the general public was the axial flux generator able to crank out some noticeable power. I still have not built my turbine but the materials for doing so can all be purchased online. www.magnet4less.com for magnets and coil wire fiberglass and resin dunno what site I used maybe ebay but everything you have been searching so hard for can be found here::::::::: http://www.otherpower.com/turbineplans.shtml ::::::::
Enjoy
The Synchronous AC Alternator;
You know how that AC power is measured by the phase difference
Between AC voltage and AC current sinewaves. If you begin
Overdriving a syncronous AC motor in terms of torque, any amount
you overrun it will cause the current and voltage waveforms to
switch in terms of lead vs lag in phase (the phase is referenced to
each to the other). So the simplest generator is actually just a large
AC motor being overdriven. This cannot supply backup power but
only power to an operating grid. If the grid is not available then your
stuck. The wind turbine might overspeed but the generator will not
put any power out to the now down grid so it isn’t dangerous as a
self excited generator.
The thing is this is a very inexpensive and easy solution. How do you do
it is…lets say you have a relatively constant source of power like A
water turbine. You put something in the middle between the turbine
and the motor called a mechanical CVT continuously variable transmission.
They have these for machines with a ratio crank on top. Once things are
turned on You simply adjust the CVT crank so that it causes the motor to
overspeed and the water turbine will pump power though the motor out to
the grid, causing the utility turbine and generator to slow down slightly and
utility to burn less fuel. You can substitute any engine that pumps out
constant torque for the water turbine. Unfortunately the windturbine is
not generally one of them because of the very variable output of wind
power.
:S:MarkCoffman
OK, I've gotta ask, what is this "Magnets4Energy" advertising that is popping up here claiming to solve all my electricity problems for under $100??
If that was the case, all of you guys would be talking about buying THAT Magnets4Energy thing, instead of discussing how to build wind turbines!
Is it a scam or what?
Chris ;)
Quote from: Northern-Lights on January 29, 2011, 10:31:57 PM
OK, I've gotta ask, what is this "Magnets4Energy" advertising that is popping up here claiming to solve all my electricity problems for under $100??
If that was the case, all of you guys would be talking about buying THAT Magnets4Energy thing, instead of discussing how to build wind turbines!
Is it a scam or what?
Chris ;)
Ummm........no reply on that question??
@ Northern lights . ask yourself . If you had the answer to the worlds energy problems , would you sell it at a mere $100 a pop ? The trouble with buying such plans is that when it does not work they will say its all your fault , you built it wrong . That is my opinion .
OK, so I'm stupid, thanks for reminding me.
OK, another "stupid" question.
I would like to "build" some kind of cheap and easily built wind turbine that is just small, and will deliver a bit of current to my batteries to keep them well charged, and I'm wondering what the best way to go is.
Should I rebuild an old furnace motor by removing the core, and modifying it with magnets to generate power, OR, should I build the type where the magnets are mounted to a spinning wooden (or other material) disc that is in close proximity to another disk that does not spin, with the many small coils of wire attached to it?
I"m not sure which is easier, and which will deliver the best results for the efforts spent in making it, and additionally, I do not have any special machine shop tools, just basic hand tools ect, so I am wondering if it IS possible for me to change the core of a furnace motor to allow the addition of magnets anyhow, so I'm torn as to which one I should "attempt" to tackle first.
Also, I'm confused about the magnets, where to find them cheapest, which ones you can get away with using, what the minimum "N" value would be (N38 as compared to N42 for example) that you can use and still have good power output. I know you get what you pay for, but is there a basic "set price range" for these magnets on a scale that you can compare to assure your getting a good deal?
Thanks!
Chris ;)
This one is i think one of the easiest.
A 30 minutes tutorial to modify a Ac motor to DC, a little different from the ceiling fan types.
The guy talks a lot, but its useful info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRnhFvu9PXo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRnhFvu9PXo)
Edit:
There is no "easy" way if you want it cheap but usable and durable. It is all related:
- Power needs
- Fan blade configuration efficiency
- Avarage windspeed at location height
- Seize / type of generator
- Noise level
Claculate all that, add 20%