Have you seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uVzsfRJGlk&feature=player_embedded#
These are the kind of ideas i started off with in 7th grade. This looks good, like it does stay off balance and the drop bounce helps. The square panels at the end of the arms maybe to keep the bounce from bouncing too much. I had thoughts that the square plates could be blown by air and that is why they were there, but I dont really see any evidence of it.
Nice show. ;]
Mags
Have you had any success building one?
Omni
Funny how the path the action takes,looks like the Abeling Logo?
I agree with Mags ,Looks like it should work!
Chet
Quote from: ramset on February 04, 2011, 01:03:46 PM
Omni
Funny how the path the action takes,looks like the Abeling Logo?
I agree with Mags ,Looks like it should work!
Chet
One thing different, though, is that it doesn't have a ramp. Also, seems much easier to make than Abeling's.
Omni
I want it to be that simple! Please let it be that simple!
;D
do you have a number we can call?
Chet
Quote from: ramset on February 04, 2011, 02:44:36 PM
Omni
I want it to be that simple! Please let it be that simple!
;D
do you have a number we can call?
Chet
I guess you'll get the number to call from here: http://www.zungedesign.ru/projects/?item=133 . Let us all know what happens after you call them.
I've seen this design before somewhere and thought it certainly looked like it could work. I almost built something similar one time but never got around to finishing it. I think the black end pieces are to keep the arms from falling too fast which would likely cause damage eventually to the hinges or attachment points. My one concern though is that since weight is equally balanced on each side will gravity act on the open arm in such a way as to leverage that weight because it is further from the fulcrum point? Or does this simply work because of the increased speed and inertia that occurs when an arm flops down?
Did you write that tongue in cheek?
Ð'Ð¸Ð·ÑƒÐ°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð°Ñ Ð±Ð¸Ð¶ÑƒÑ,ериÑ, леденцы Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð³Ð»Ð°Ð· / Ð'лог / Kindisch / СÑ,ÑƒÐ´Ð¸Ñ / ÐÐ´Ñ€ÐµÑ / (+7 495) 799-3470
Ð'Ñе проекÑ,Ñ‹ / PDF-Ðльбом / Ð"раÑ,,. концепции / Ð"екорации / Журналы / ИллюÑÑ,рации / ИнÑ,ерьеры / Книги и буклеÑ,Ñ‹ / КомпакÑ,-диÑки / ЛогоÑ,ипы и ÑÑ,или / ПлакаÑ,Ñ‹ / ПриглаÑиÑ,ельные / СÑ,енды / ШриÑ,,Ñ,Ñ‹
Сцена Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð²ÐµÑ‡ÐµÑ€Ð¸Ð½ÐºÐ¸ на заброшенном заводе
----------------------
How do I dial that + in the phone #?
Chet
BTW does anyone think this would spin faster with less arms on it?
@ Ramset , I believe that + is dialled as 0 .
Quote from: ramset on February 04, 2011, 03:45:24 PM
Did you write that tongue in cheek?
Ð'Ð¸Ð·ÑƒÐ°Ð»ÑŒÐ½Ð°Ñ Ð±Ð¸Ð¶ÑƒÑ,ериÑ, леденцы Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð³Ð»Ð°Ð· / Ð'лог / Kindisch / СÑ,ÑƒÐ´Ð¸Ñ / ÐÐ´Ñ€ÐµÑ / (+7 495) 799-3470
Ð'Ñе проекÑ,Ñ‹ / PDF-Ðльбом / Ð"раÑ,,. концепции / Ð"екорации / Журналы / ИллюÑÑ,рации / ИнÑ,ерьеры / Книги и буклеÑ,Ñ‹ / КомпакÑ,-диÑки / ЛогоÑ,ипы и ÑÑ,или / ПлакаÑ,Ñ‹ / ПриглаÑиÑ,ельные / СÑ,енды / ШриÑ,,Ñ,Ñ‹
Сцена Ð´Ð»Ñ Ð²ÐµÑ‡ÐµÑ€Ð¸Ð½ÐºÐ¸ на заброшенном заводе
----------------------
How do I dial that + in the phone #?
Chet
I know, but get this: http://zungedesign.livejournal.com/25085.html#cutid1 . This is their blog with a little discussion forum underneath. It's in Russian but there's nothing of substance in it.
Some on that forum are saying it is being run by a vacuum cleaner blowing on it. But you hear no sounds of anything running yet can hear faint sounds in the background of people talking. Also the person filming it stands directly in the way of the point for several seconds where air would need to be blowing from it if it was involved.
Hey Omni
No, no runners. I was into Radio Shack color computer back then also. Started off at a huge 4k of ram, :o Later upgraded it to 64k ram. ::) anyway, I got real good at basic programming and also into assembler. I did some simulations of a device that i designed, that for 7th grade was pretty good, I thought. ;] It was a sliding rod device, a wheel with 6 outward and inward sliders connected to a cam in the center to push the rods on the down side of the wheel out and the up side in, thus forcing a continuous weight difference. What I had figured out in the sims was the cam made the angle of the rods different than they would be if they were connected to the center. This caused more of the rods at anytime to be leaning on the wheel in the direction I didnt want it to go. I did the calculations at different angles and it always was in pure balance.
Then I thought of having the rods only slide straight out from the wheel with a cam. after studying that for a bit you can see how the weight of the sliding rods applied pressure to the cam, still caused the same issue, balance. =]
Im 45 now and just got back into it seriously back with the whipmag, and im stuck here. lol its a good kind of stuck.
Hey E2
I think more wheels of the same in parallel would increase torque, having them offset so the hammer action happened more often per rotation. And those square plates on the arms need to go.
I said above that I thought that maybe a fan might be blowing on the floor, using those plates to catch the breeze.
I just watched the vid again and I see an inkling of possible air pushing on the arms at the bottom. At times it looks like the arm is just hanging, but then you see some lean upwards toward the direction they are moving, like something is making it be in a position it should not be in at the time. Me thinks. ;]
Mags
Mags,
I suppose the big fan blades do make it suspect?
Maybe someone who's played with this close on the way up Out on the way down technique can give their opinion?
The SNAP is intrigueing,and makes me hope that the blade design has something to do with Snap damping?
Wishful thinking!
Chet
Ramsey
Yea, the blades, if the thing works, are slowing things down. Why would we want that? It looks like a lot of wind resistance.
Maybe it is used as a damper so the arm doesnt bounce too hard, Why would we want that? Let them puppies breathe! Band Bang like dc impulse. But no, this device is softened up. Why?
I think it might be a sham. Have a looky. Particularly the arms hanging at the bottom, after they are past the point where the arm is not being held out by the rotor any longer. Ill look again and point out some frames that I suspect a breazy. =]
Mags
Ok in the first 10 seconds, it seems like damning evidence. Watch the arms after they pass the base stand. The wheel has already let go of holding the arm out and the arms look to be blown lightly by air pressure coming from the left of the machine.
I vote sham. I could be wrong but it is what it is. what is it? =]
Kind of convenient that the camera does not show the area that I presume the fan is. ;]
Magsy
One more ting dats right ting. =]
If these machines, at least that we know of ;] ,always end in balance, it may only take a breeze to tip it over and spin.
Yup, its a windmill. lol
Mags
Maybe in the sham, they knew everyone would be more watching the action happening at the top of the machine, and looking everywhere for the motor or fishing lines, not noticing the invisible air that causes a slight tilt on those loose haging bottom arms.. After the Mylow experience, Ive learned to look at the details. Just think of all the slight of hand he performed to trick us. This could be what we see here. again, maybe not. I would love for it to work. But I had a lot of experience with this stuff.
Mags
GEEEZE
Your sucha party pooper!
BUT It does look like a weee Hurricane at the bottom.
:(
Chet
When the camera guy is facing the edge of the wheel, some arms fall as if there being blown to the left. Ceiling fan?
Mags
lol Sorry Chets lol hurricane. laughing my ass of.
But this is who we are buddy. seek the real and bring out the fakes.
Mags
And classically, even though the arm extended weight looks to offset the wheel balance, take a good look at the back side and count how many weights on that side compared to the extended side. Classic.
Mags
Then again, maybe it is just artwork, considering the source of the source.
;]
Mags
This design throughly works! ;D
i think we have to make a giant of this so we can make power using sprocket ;D
momentum + gravity = energy hmmmmmm. ;D
Its an illusion Teets it is art work. There is a fan or fans causing the motive force.
Mags
Every time we meet with such claims it becomes obvious that such devices cannot work without a ramp (the motivation to post vids of fake devices aside, if that's indeed a fake as hinted by the suspicious delay of the bottom arms to retract). A ramp adds to the friction, unfortunately. Therefore, designs have to be established whereby the ramp would ingeniously act at minimal friction and the OU is produced in the direction of motion. Steorn's Orbo is a good candidate in this respect where efforts should be applied to increase the amount of OU (excess energy). That would simplify the design.
We see, in every such idea (say, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ02MjqBk7s&feature=youtube_gdata_player) the need for a ramp is the crux of the matter. All these ideas for gravity motors gravitata around the same thing -- maintaining persistent violation of the lever rule -- and that can only be accomplished by a proper ramp. So, friction, friction is the culprit.
Quote from: Magluvin on February 04, 2011, 08:47:16 PM
Ok in the first 10 seconds, it seems like damning evidence. Watch the arms after they pass the base stand. The wheel has already let go of holding the arm out and the arms look to be blown lightly by air pressure coming from the left of the machine.
I vote sham. I could be wrong but it is what it is. what is it? =]
Kind of convenient that the camera does not show the area that I presume the fan is. ;]
I'm not convinced yet this is a scam. It is made in a flimsy way probably with thin wood or plastic pieces bolted together. It appears to me that what you mention could be simply some of the bolts being too tight at the joint. Some appear to hold on a bit near the bottom as they are starting back up the circle while others move smoothly on as they should.
Magsy
I've never seen in any of these cases actual proof through actual demonstrating it how the fake demo was made. Some speak of fishing line in Mylow's video but no one demonstrated how this is actually done. @alsetalokin's whipmag was a fake but no one showed how he actually did it. Same appies to @xpenzif as well as to @Roobert33 and many many others. Getting to the bottom of the manipilation, if that's really a manipulation, is important in many ways not the least of which is gaining experience towards the building of the inevitably possible to build perpetuum mobile. In this case, someone who has the equipment may be willing to replicate this rig and see first hand where the problems are. It would be educational if he can show how this can be faked with a vacuum cleaner (must be very silent, though) or a fan. Negative experience also teaches, sometimes even more efficiently.
E2
Almost didnt see what you wrote as it was embedded in my quote. =]
Well if you look at the cam angle where I see the arms kinda fly leftward as the fall and extend out, this doesnt look like a tight noogie. ;] And I see where you are seeing the arms that I claim being blown at the bottom just drop to a hang after being what you see as tight. I think that we see that drop due to the arm in front of it finally blocking the wind.
Ive really looked at this pretty good. When we see these machines in motion, sure they look as if, wow, there it is folks, and everything seems to make sense. But just as in mylows vid, and he admitted doing wrong in the end, look how long it took to see the fishing lines and the motor set up on the couch, and him stepping over the lines that were discovered while filming.
I think there may be a ceiling fan also. cant say cant see. I said above a couple times that I may be wrong. And you all can make up your own minds. =]
Mags
Oops, I see my post got lost in your quote but for some odd reason I don't seem to be able to 'modify' my post now. Thanks for catching it. It's really hard to say on this. I don't think a ceiling fan would do anything though. It seems the only direction an air flow would help would be from the side the movie taker walked around and near the bottom to be of any assistance in turning it. I've got enough of a start on a build similar that when it warms up a bit I'll get into my shop and try this as I don't think it will take more than an hour or two to finish a build I started years ago and turn it into this style setup. I anticipate I can put it together without even buying anything additional.
Very cool E2. Look forward to seeing what you have come up with.
Back when I started with the gravity wheels, my first was the rolling marbles, then a couple like we see here. My last was the sliding rods, where I spent a lot of time on.
But who knows, Im definitely not Einstein. =]
good luck.
Mags
Here's an excerpt of Mikhail Dmitriyev's video focusing on the important part of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENrMwPNt9Cc&feature=player_embedded#
Thermodynamics never takes into account the energy put in to build a machine. The energy balance in thermodynamics is always done from the moment there is a machine available on. In this case the work of the machine starts from standstill. At that standstill the machine has certain gravitational potential energy, as a, say, ball has when sitting on a table with respect to the floor. In the case of a ball on a table, once it's let go towards the floor it can never recover the initial potential energy due to losses and never reaches the height of the table on its own. In this case the construction more than recovers the initially put in energy thus producing excess energy ("energy out of nothing", as it were).
What we see in the video is that when the lever with weight (the pendulum), attached to a one-way clutch bearing reaches the 12 o'clock position the second time it is already in a retracted state. The problem now is, as in every case of a magnetic or gravity motor, to construct a proper negative feedback mechanism which would use the obtained excess energy to restore the initial state of the lever (the state the lever had at the beginning of the experiment).
Probably using some kind of low-friction ramp would be the solutions here too (aside from the brute force approach Dmitriyev applies by using a swastika-like retractor driven by an externally powered motor; that solution isn't acceptable for convincing society let alone that we already have Paul Sprain's solution). I've tried using a magnet, positioned right where the restoration of lever arm position should occur (12 o'clock) but now one needs to have the one-way clutch to suddenly turn into two-way clutch and then revert back to one-way clutch. Otherwise, the attraction continues and the lever overshoots the needed position. As is easily understood, converting a one-way clutch into two-way and back is a mechanical problem of exactly the same type we've had in all these cases whereby rotational energy has to be converted into translational.
So, in this case, as in each one of the cases studied so far, we have to focus on ways to accomplish this negative feedback as frictionless as possible. Also, one doesn't need to add more and more weights or to come up with another 2000 ideas having the same problem. One working solution is enough.
So, yes, there are attempts to fake a gravity machine but the truth is, in principle, it is possible to build one, as this and many other experiments prove.
Groan.
Draw the thing out on a piece of paper and then do a moment-arm analysis. You will see that the wheel is actually always IN BALANCE. Gravity cannot be doing anything here. The device is likely powered by air flow in the environment, and it doesn't take much of that. There is considerable "flywheel effect", that is, energy is stored in the rotational inertia of the device, so standing in front of the airflow for a few moments won't hurt much. Plus, considering the design of the device, the air could be hitting it from any direction within the plane of the wheel, and it would turn. Top, bottom, side, it matters not. A ceiling fan could indeed be making it turn.
I can hear plenty of noise in the background that could indeed indicate fans or a vacuum cleaner blowing on the thing. Note that the device is a product of a "design studio"... meaning artists.
Nice puppy dog, though.
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 07, 2011, 11:35:17 AM
Groan.
Draw the thing out on a piece of paper and then do a moment-arm analysis. You will see that the wheel is actually always IN BALANCE. Gravity cannot be doing anything here. The device is likely powered by air flow in the environment, and it doesn't take much of that. There is considerable "flywheel effect", that is, energy is stored in the rotational inertia of the device, so standing in front of the airflow for a few moments won't hurt much. Plus, considering the design of the device, the air could be hitting it from any direction within the plane of the wheel, and it would turn. Top, bottom, side, it matters not. A ceiling fan could indeed be making it turn.
I can hear plenty of noise in the background that could indeed indicate fans or a vacuum cleaner blowing on the thing. Note that the device is a product of a "design studio"... meaning artists.
Nice puppy dog, though.
Well, you may be right in your speculation about a device such as Glotov's having no ramp. However, the "moment-arm analysis" of a wheel with a ramp (Abeling's, for instance) shows persistent negative torque at every position of the wheel. You may also use WM2D to observe that at every position of the wheel Abeling's wheel persistently violates the lever rule. I've shown that a number of times in this forum. The latest link I gave of an exerpt from Mikhail Dmitriyev's experiment also proves unequivocally violation of CoE. The goal now is to physically make a self-sustaining device. This is a societal requirement and not a requirement of science and its scientific method. Unfortunately, like I said it has been foisted on society to think that only continuous violation of CoE constitutes violation of CoE. Therefore, if violation of CoE is to be adopted by the governing mainstream science (which is the ultimate goal of a sensible OU pursuit because no private money can compare with the money and infrastructure of the mainstream) demonstrating a self-sustaining device is a must.
What motivates people to make a scam video anyway?
After looking at this a few times, you see at the bottom that the hinging arms are staying straight longer than they should. Those arm should start bending after 180 degrees (six o-clock). It is clear you can see many of the arms staying straight. Some type of air nozzle (or fan) is blowing there. >:(