Here is an idea based on the work of J L Naudin et al .Take a simple parallel tuned circuit [tank circuit] consisting of a coil and a variable capacitor . I understand that it can be made to oscillate by varying either the inductance or capacitance in a rhythmic manner at twice the frequency of the tank circuit . So we are altering a parameter of the oscillator in the same manner that a child maintains oscillation of a swing by rhythmically altering the center of gravity . One way to do this is to have a center tap on the coil,and provide a switch that will short circuit half the windings . Then we open and close this switch at twice the resonant frequency of the tank circuit . In an initial trial , the resonant frequency of the tank could be kept low ,say 50 Hz .Thus the switching could be done mechanically by a variable speed motor driven cam or commutator . I believe that the amplitude of the oscillation is dependent on the magnitude of change in the inductor and possibly the Q of the tank . I think the amount of energy that could be extracted from the tank could exceed the energy needed to do the switching .I favour mechanical switching initially , it saves argument as to where any excess energy comes from . Is it possible for someone to simulate this please?
I am a bit surprised no one has commented on this .It is so simple . Any thoughts , positive or negative?
http://www.energeticforum.com/97660-post196.html
@Master Plaster . Thanks for taking an interest ,and the link to that interesting post . I am not a brilliant mathematician , to say the least . But I get the feeling that the chances of success would be higher if the coil tap was arranged so that the two switched resonant frequencies were harmonically related .My gut feeling is that the resultant sinewave would be much less distorted .
This is an old research area.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraconv.htm
I was looking at parametric converters a few days ago.
Then I fell in to the area of multi-filar windings.
Varying the inductance is what the tpu, ismael, magnacoaster, Kunel, bearden MEG, DUAL PULSE PROTOCOL, T-Kapanadze, shorting coil at peaks, and joule thief do. There is also the action of utilizing bemf looped back.
There are numerous examples. Alot of my youtube vids are comprised of using this process. I am not claiming ownership, just validating any other efforts.
Always look at the time frame of variance of inductance to identify the device configuration.
Loopback is the other parameter. Some happen in the core, wiring or external circuit. The gk4 by Otto's configuration looped the controls into the collectors. The collector bias can be shut off or squeezed( by Steven Mark's terms).
There is nothing magical about this. Obfuscation, confusion or made up terms to get this across should have never been used. It is this simple. The proof is all over the place.
Safety has always been primary concern. The cataclismic events can be easily attained. The control is the primary goal.
May we all go down in history...
Shorting the inductor would change its resistance, thereby altering the current. Naudin's writes that the parametric-effect is a result of the change in inductance (dL/dt), not current (di/dt) and where the magic lies - at least that's my reading of it! What pisses me off about Naudin is that his website is full of mouth-watering stuff like this, followed by a "more to come..." statement, but it never does - that parametric posting is from '97 and was never followed up!
One of those magnetic-amplifier chokes in place of the inductor might be a better way to go.
Dollard - Chris Carson and more information:
Parametric electric machine Ferdinand Cap - Patent number: 4622510
http://www.google.com/patents?id=cuc0AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&rview=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
OK let me crack you head open!
Oscillations in systems with non-linear reactance By R. V. L. Hartley
http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol15-1936/articles/bstj15-3-424.pdf
Also: How about some power Amplification:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7808124.pdf
Lets kick this up a notch.
I see your 1 and raise 100.
Got this off the factory floor.
Broli post :
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5811-parametric-excitation.html#post98702
A couple of questions here . Does anybody know if the oscillation amplitude in a parametric oscillator would depend on frequency? I want to keep the resonant frequency low so that I can use mechanical switching . Also , can anyone offer a wild guess as to the inductance in Henrys of a microwave oven transformer . This transformer is 220 volt to 2000 volt step up transformer and is quite large . Please estimate both the primary and secondary windings .
Quote from: neptune on April 19, 2011, 01:17:29 PM
A couple of questions here . Does anybody know if the oscillation amplitude in a parametric oscillator would depend on frequency? I want to keep the resonant frequency low so that I can use mechanical switching . Also , can anyone offer a wild guess as to the inductance in Henrys of a microwave oven transformer . This transformer is 220 volt to 2000 volt step up transformer and is quite large . Please estimate both the primary and secondary windings .
hi Nep
how's the knee? recovering nicely after that impact with the poynt gonads?
AC signals across effectively 'unloaded' LC pairs will vary in amplitude with 'f', having a maxima or minima at the res. freq. depending on the LC pair being parallel or series respec.
i seem to remember from seeing one of woopys recent vids that he wrote the Iy / IIy inductances on the MOT which was featured
hope this helps - good aim, btw, obviously touched a nerve or two
np
http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
Quote from: neptune on April 19, 2011, 01:17:29 PM
A couple of questions here . Does anybody know if the oscillation amplitude in a parametric oscillator would depend on frequency? I want to keep the resonant frequency low so that I can use mechanical switching . Also , can anyone offer a wild guess as to the inductance in Henrys of a microwave oven transformer . This transformer is 220 volt to 2000 volt step up transformer and is quite large . Please estimate both the primary and secondary windings .
I just did a quick check with 2 220V MOT's I have;
700W Primary 180mH. Secondary 12.8H.
800W Primary 195mH. Secondary 18.1H.
@Sprocket . Re the knee ,LOL .Many thanks for those values of inductance.Re my question regarding Frequency . What I meant was , assuming this oscillator idea works , would it give more power out if the frequency was say 1Mhz as opposed to 50 Hz . There would be advantages in 50Hz , One could use a standard transformer and not have issues with the core materials .Also , if mechanical switching was used , a switching rate of 100Hz is feasible ,whereas this is not true at 1Mhz .My idea was to use the primaries of 2 transformers across a capacitor . then use a switch to short out one transformer at the right frequency .A meter or scope across one of the secondaries would detect oscillation .
You would to match the tank frequency to a harmonic of the resonate freq of the transformer core. Its like the opera singer breaking a glass with their voice.
Well, I gave it a go. Both primaries = 350mH. Tried it with 1, 2 and 4.7uF caps. Used a relay to short one of the primaries, energised by my old pulse generator. The relay probably manages ok up to about 150HZ. No lovely sine-waves I'm afraid but it does produce a amplitude modulated rough 200HZ sine on one of the secondaries, up to a max of about 100mV. I'm assuming the 200HZ is just a harmonic of the 50HZ mains. I expected to see nothing at all so it wasn't a total loss...
hi Neptune & Sprocket
could you guys either post schematics or links to such of the circuits you're experimenting with?
if you're using AC excitation of the LC elements then the L & C components need to be resonant at the drive freq(s)
eg at 50Hz, with 350mH (combined) primary, then C should be approx 29uF for resonance
thanks
np
http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
I just tried what neptune suggested, namely 2 MOT primaries in series, and in parallel with a capacitor, then short one of the primaries with a relay and monitor either of the secondaries. No AC excitation involved, just a plain-vanilla parallel LC circuit whose resonant frequency I calculated at about 269Hz, so as per neptune's theory, shorting it at half that might produce interesting results. It didn't, but at least something was happening which surprised me especially as there was no attempt to inject any waveform into the transformers. With the 50Hz 'hum' everywhere, I would have expected to see this (if anything) on the secondary, instead I see a 200Hz AM-signal which varies in both amplitude and frequency - the modulation, not the 200Hz - as I adjust the rate the relay is being switched at.
Quote from: Sprocket on April 21, 2011, 07:35:38 AM
No AC excitation involved
...
a parallel LC circuit whose resonant frequency I calculated at about 269Hz, so as per neptune's theory, shorting it at half that
ok, thanks Sprocket
my reading of the JLN Parametric Osc experiments (eg. v4, say, courtesy of Fred Apps),
link:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/params40.htm (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/params40.htm)is that both an input signal plus a switching signal is used
also, note that the suggested switching freq is 2x the LC res freq. - not half, as in your latest test
hope this helps
np
http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
@Sprocket . Thanks for trying that experiment . My idea of the 2 microwave transformers is at best a crude lash-up , but it is interesting to note that you got some energy out of it with no input except switching .As nul-points says , the switching frequency needs to be twice the resonant freq of the tank circuit .Ultimately , a better set up would be a custom wound inductor on a core with various taps , so the percentage of the coil that gets shorted can be varied . It seems to me you already have energy from nowhere .Now optimisation is the name of the game .I suggested using the secondaries as a test point , but with a custom inductor , a low value resistor could be used for current measurement.Note aso , on Naudins site , the circuit by Fred Apps sing a bifilar coil . One could also look at varying the capacitance instead of the inductance , by having 2 caps in series , and shorting one of them .
Sorry about that, I thought you said half the frequency! That said, I was checking doubling as well when I tried the 2 (maybe) and 4.7uF (definitely) capacitors. All produced more or less the same output. The output itself I had presumed was simply induced from the copious amounts of mains-tied wiring in the average house, though why I see 200Hz rather than 50Hz is a mystery.
I have a feeling that the change in inductance or capacitance would need to be 'dynamic' as opposed to a step-function you'd get from shorting. Of course I bow to Naudin if he says differently. Someone posted a pic of that large spinning aluminium capacitor earlier - this I could see working! I used to have several of those vintage aluminium 500-1000pF tuning capacitors from radios at one time - lost now though - but they would be interesting to play with, even though quite a lot of engineering would probably have to be done to get it to spin freely.
@Sprocket .I feel that if this is going to work , it is going to be very critical on tuning . Ideally the switching rate needs to be exactly twice the resonant frequency , and correctly phased .So the points of transients of the square wave need to coincide with the peaks and crossover points of the output sine wave . Once the principle is proved to work , some kind of feedback mechanism could do the job .Re your theory of dynamic change as opposed to step change . Your theory is as likely to be valid as Naudins or anyone elses .This could be done by varing the capacitance [see my last post] and substituting a load of varicap diodes for one of the fixed caps .Now apply a driving signal to the varicaps which is like a sine wave superimposed on a DC voltage so the signal never goes negative . Frequency of said sinewave to be twice resonant frequency of tank .
hi guys
my brain has obviously been in 'park' whilst you've been discussing using two inductors in series - you're right Sprocket, the L & C have to be the same single component whose parameter gets changed - you can't switch another L or C in or out because the stored field has to exist within the component to be modified
so the sequence is something like:
- apply signal to store field in component value X
- alter value X to value Y
- recover new signal from stored field in component value Y
i think that its going to be easier for you to use L as the parametric component because varicaps have such a low capacitance that your frequency would need to be 10s of MHz, or more likely at least 100MHz
variable rotor capacitors would enable a lower frequency, but still probably in the range units-10s of MHz
as you say, you'll need to tap the coil at a suitable point (or mount two coils on the same core)
hope this helps
np
http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
@giantkiller
Where did you get the picture from Magnacoasters?
@nul-points . Thanks for that interesting post . A useful experiment would be to use a center tapped transformer as a starting point . Then , if that looks promising we could build a custom inductor with multiple taps .
I hesitate to post but for completeness, yesterday I actually checked the switching speed of the relay I was using - about 40Hz was the best it could do, everything above that was hit-and-miss! So I went rummaging and found a physically much smaller relay which managed a much more respectable 250-260Hz. With the same setup & capacitors, I was getting nothing like I posted earlier. There is still an output but nowhere as well defined and definitely no AM.
Perhaps check this out:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=26.msg13781#new
Read the thread from the start, not the last post.
Operating the cores at saturation knee can cause parametric pumping effect.
Vortex1
Sir the link you posted appears to require membership to View?
Or am I doing something wrong?
Thanks
Chet
Chet:
It is my bench on OUR.com. Thought you were a member. Did you login?
Hi ION [Vortex1]
Yes I see that Your link takes Peeps to a "Can't view this Page with out Logging in" Page!
Thanks
Good to see you around!
Chet
PS
Will most definately have a look!
Quote from: Vortex1 on May 13, 2011, 09:57:45 AM
Chet:
It is my bench on OUR.com. Thought you were a member. Did you login?
try :
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php
Quote from: wings on April 17, 2011, 03:40:01 PM
Dollard - Chris Carson and more information:
Parametric electric machine Ferdinand Cap - Patent number: 4622510
http://www.google.com/patents?id=cuc0AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&rview=1#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://is.gd/explainpe
http://is.gd/electricparadigm
Energy parametric circuits of the second kind - http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/pc2?lang=en (http://gorchilin.com/articles/energy/pc2?lang=en)