Here is my attempt at simulating Romero's output wave form.
Currently using simple linear coupling, so the "Bias" magnets are not useable. The output across both generator coils connected as shown (series-canceling) is zero volts, i.e. perfect cancellation.
I've also tried a basic test with the core marked in the top left; with similar results so far.
The simulation is based on a motor (VROTOR) driving the rotor in a sine wave mode. L1 and L4 are the top and bottom poles respectively of the rotor magnet, and the top and bottom generator coils are self-evident. The output is +/-5Vp if either L2 or L5 connection is inverted, i.e. in series-adding.
L3 and L6 may be used later (with a magnetic core) to emulate the bias magnets placed on the generator cores.
This is a starting point only. Any suggestions how this circuit may be modified to achieve that output wave form?
Regards,
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on June 25, 2011, 08:59:55 PM
Here is my attempt at simulating Romero's output wave form.
Currently using simple linear coupling, so the "Bias" magnets are not useable. The output across both generator coils connected as shown (series-canceling) is zero volts, i.e. perfect cancellation.
I've also tried a basic test with the core marked in the top left; with similar results so far.
The simulation is based on a motor (VROTOR) driving the rotor in a sine wave mode. L1 and L4 are the top and bottom poles respectively of the rotor magnet, and the top and bottom generator coils are self-evident. The output is +/-5Vp if either L2 or L5 connection is inverted, i.e. in series-adding.
L3 and L6 may be used later (with a magnetic core) to emulate the bias magnets placed on the generator cores.
This is a starting point only. Any suggestions how this circuit may be modified to achieve that output wave form?
Regards,
.99
i tell you it is not worth the effort to try and get this to work and give anything that resembles a muller o/p. I only did it because i totally frigged the setup just to produce a similar looking wave and not because it resembles anything in real life. ALL these SIMS are MATH programs and they assume everything is > 0 is a loss as far as the source supply is concerned So the losses stack up and it tells you where the losses are as pure linear regression. Now what happens is if you try and force loss <0 you get a divide by 0 error and the program crashes or it just says you cannot have that loop. Usually capacitor loops with no resistance are illegal.
So for the Muller the inductance has all been cancelled out and the phase is shifted 90 degrees into VARS to give a tensor pressure vector on the ambient. Well the SIM knows NOTHING about this stuff so it assumes there is nothing to be gained or give a 0 o/p as everything is null on the conventional current flows.
So SIMS are out you cannot model something it knows nothing about unless you teach it everything about Zero Point Energy and how electron static field tensor allow energy to be pumped from the thermal region and aether density transform. The response under transform is magnetic flux derived from electron space dimension array back into the coils and the polarity is complimentary to EMF. So when you figured out how a SIM is supposed to achieve this then yes you can model it but as far as i know no one has come up with an accurate formulae yet to "plug in" . Perhaps in 2015 we might have ZPE SIMS:)
@Poyt,
You'll find that skepticism about sims here everywhere.
I can tell you it's worth doing these sims, but don't expect a reward from most members here.
I stopped posting due to lack of interest, but I have a huge amount of insights gained from the Ansys sims I performed.
Once you have a bit of confidence in you model, try those serial capacitors with the coils and compare the results with those without capacitors.
You'll find some interesting conclusions.
Members here should ask themselves why do (big) companies and universities invest in big simulation efforts en costly programs.
Best example is the car industry. They mainly design by simulations these days.
Please continue, while you enjoy it!
Quote from: teslaalset on June 26, 2011, 03:21:39 AM
@Poyt,
You'll find that skepticism about sims here everywhere.
I can tell you it's worth doing these sims, but don't expect a reward from most members here.
I stopped posting due to lack of interest, but I have a huge amount of insights gained from the Ansys sims I performed.
Once you have a bit of confidence in you model, try those serial capacitors with the coils and compare the results with those without capacitors.
You'll find some interesting conclusions.
Members here should ask themselves why do (big) companies and universities invest in big simulation efforts en costly programs.
Best example is the car industry. They mainly design by simulations these days.
Please continue, while you enjoy it!
Thanks teslaalset.
Actually, I'm well aware of the sim aversion prominent in these forums, I've been receiving criticism for using them for years. I know their usefulness however, glad you do as well. ;)
Regards,
.99
@bolt, seems to me you're making an awful lot of assumptions. I was rather hoping you'd have some constructive input on the sim now that I have the basic layout.
Quote from: poynt99 on June 26, 2011, 09:06:10 AM
Thanks teslaalset.
Actually, I'm well aware of the sim aversion prominent in these forums, I've been receiving criticism for using them for years. I know their usefulness however, glad you do as well. ;)
Regards,
.99
@bolt, seems to me you're making an awful lot of assumptions. I was rather hoping you'd have some constructive input on the sim now that I have the basic layout.
Poynt,
I think your model looks very usable.
It has some nice similarities with the magnetic amplifier techniques.
What kind of PSpice cores are you using?
I guess you're using non-liniar ones, otherwise the bias wouldn't make sence.
I use 3C90 Ferrite ones.
teslaalset,
Up in the top left corner of the diagram is the core part number I tried so far, but am NOT using at the moment (note the K-Linear);
3C85 material.
cheers,
.99
Lets be very clear i use SIMs a lot! They are extremely useful to model conventional parts of the circuit where you believe conventional tuning applies for example they will help you find the value of tuning caps and inductors for filtering networks AFTER the capture of ZPE. But they have limitations to which you must understand a conventional approach to electronics doesn't know anything about ZPE so how could it possibly know how to provide an accurate schematic model?
Hi .99
I wonder if you had considered the similarity of penno's drawing to this patent? I think this has more potential (no pun intended) than coils in anti phase.
Does this sim?
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 26, 2011, 06:44:25 PM
Hi .99
I wonder if you had considered the similarity of penno's drawing to this patent? I think this has more potential (no pun intended) than coils in anti phase.
Does this sim?
Ron
Ron,
This should sim ok. What type of core is used?
Also, where would we be looking for some kind of output?
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on June 26, 2011, 08:29:25 PM
Ron,
This should sim ok. What type of core is used?
Also, where would we be looking for some kind of output?
.99
Well the patent is in German so the core is a good guess.
This is drawn from the patent, where it is sourced from the ~ symbol... but as a generator that symbol would be the load, right?
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 26, 2011, 08:53:38 PM
Well the patent is in German so the core is a good guess.
This is drawn from the patent, where it is sourced from the ~ symbol... but as a generator that symbol would be the load, right?
Ron
Of course, right you are.
Any idea what the purpose of that configuration is in the patent?
.99
EDIT: It's OK, I found an abstract.
WO 2010003394 (A2)
CAPACITIVE WINDING FOR ELECTRIC MOTORS, TRANSFORMERS, AND SOLENOIDS
The invention relates to a capacitive winding which is made of copper wire, has an inductive reactance of zero, is composed of two parallel conductors (1, 2), and is wound like a coil on the soft magnetic core [8]. Both conductors (1, 2) are electrically connected at the beginning of the coil by means of a capacitor (3) and are also electrically connected to a capacitor (4) at the end of the coil. The first conductor (1) is connected to a pole of an oscillating power generator (5) at the beginning of the coil, while the second conductor (2) is connected to the second pole of the oscillating power generator at the end of the coil. The capacitive winding is arranged in the stator and rotor grooves of an electric motor, and the capacitors (3, 4) are mounted outside the motor structure.; Capacitive current that flows through the windings of an electric motor generates a magnetic field in the gap between the stator and the rotor such that the apparent electric power is converted into effective mechanical power.
:o
Quote from: poynt99 on June 26, 2011, 09:32:56 PM
WO 2010003394 (A2)
CAPACITIVE WINDING FOR ELECTRIC MOTORS, TRANSFORMERS, AND SOLENOIDS
The invention relates to a capacitive winding which is made of copper wire, has an inductive reactance of zero, is composed of two parallel conductors (1, 2), and is wound like a coil on the soft magnetic core [8]. Both conductors (1, 2) are electrically connected at the beginning of the coil by means of a capacitor (3) and are also electrically connected to a capacitor (4) at the end of the coil. The first conductor (1) is connected to a pole of an oscillating power generator (5) at the beginning of the coil, while the second conductor (2) is connected to the second pole of the oscillating power generator at the end of the coil. The capacitive winding is arranged in the stator and rotor grooves of an electric motor, and the capacitors (3, 4) are mounted outside the motor structure.; Capacitive current that flows through the windings of an electric motor generates a magnetic field in the gap between the stator and the rotor such that the apparent electric power is converted into effective mechanical power.
:o
Good find! So the question is does it work as a generator?
This was sent to me by a friend but I couldn't help noticing the similarity with penno's wiring connections...
This was around just last year... but it fits the pattern of the patent owners not wanting R to publicize it. lol, one doesn't have to be paranoid...
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 26, 2011, 11:30:11 PM
Good find! So the question is does it work as a generator?
This was sent to me by a friend but I couldn't help noticing the similarity with penno's wiring connections...
This was around just last year... but it fits the pattern of the patent owners not wanting R to publicize it. lol, one doesn't have to be paranoid...
Ron
Interesting Indeed
Cheers
Quote from: poynt99 on June 26, 2011, 09:32:56 PM
WO 2010003394 (A2)
CAPACITIVE WINDING FOR ELECTRIC MOTORS, TRANSFORMERS, AND SOLENOIDS
The invention relates to a capacitive winding which is made of copper wire, has an inductive reactance of zero, is composed of two parallel conductors (1, 2), and is wound like a coil on the soft magnetic core [8]. Both conductors (1, 2) are electrically connected at the beginning of the coil by means of a capacitor (3) and are also electrically connected to a capacitor (4) at the end of the coil. The first conductor (1) is connected to a pole of an oscillating power generator (5) at the beginning of the coil, while the second conductor (2) is connected to the second pole of the oscillating power generator at the end of the coil. The capacitive winding is arranged in the stator and rotor grooves of an electric motor, and the capacitors (3, 4) are mounted outside the motor structure.; Capacitive current that flows through the windings of an electric motor generates a magnetic field in the gap between the stator and the rotor such that the apparent electric power is converted into effective mechanical power.
:o
see Cravens Wanlass:
http://www.linux-host.org/energy/awan.html
patents:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&tbo=1&hl=en&q=%2B%22Cravens+L.+Wanlass%22&btnG=Search+Patents
Quote from: wings on June 27, 2011, 03:31:35 AM
see Cravens Wanlass:
http://www.linux-host.org/energy/awan.html
patents:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&tbo=1&hl=en&q=%2B%22Cravens+L.+Wanlass%22&btnG=Search+Patents
Right on! The first patent posted is probably the easiest to implement, but the Wanlas 1980's patent shows you can take this as far as you want...
"SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
The present invention overcomes or reduces the foregoing disadvantages of electric machines by providing a capacitor in series with a stator winding thereby defining a series circuit. Connected with the main winding is switching means which operates in response to signals from an external trigger source, together with the capacitor and main winding to permit sequentially current flow in opposite directions. The switching means, capacitor and windings are fed by a source of D.C. voltage and this is converted by the series circuit, and switching means into a clipped A.C. square wave across the main winding. Frequency variation of the A.C. square wave is obtained by varying the frequency of the signal from the external trigger source, the signal preferably being discreet pulses.
The electric machines of the invention provides a system in which the magnetic flux density in the stator is maintained at optimum level for requisite load conditions. In addition, the system permits the current in the rotor also to be maintained at an optimum magnitude for requisite load conditions relative to those permitted in convention electric motors of the induction type, and the torque and horsepower of a motor for a given amount of magnetic material to be optimized."
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on June 26, 2011, 11:30:11 PM
Good find! So the question is does it work as a generator?
I'll sim it up and we'll see. Someone might build one and try as well.
.99
@poynt,
From what pspice library did you select the transformer you used?
The only one I can find is 'breakout.lib', but that one does not have 2 secondaries that do not have a common connection.
Quote from: poynt99 on June 27, 2011, 12:46:38 PM
I'll sim it up and we'll see. Someone might build one and try as well.
.99
Did a test on the world patent today and it is a good producer... but reflects back to Prime mover
27 1/2 watts out but at a cost of 32 1/2 watts extra on PM
Middle coil...20 + 20mfd
Ron
Quote from: teslaalset on June 28, 2011, 05:32:24 PM
@poynt,
From what pspice library did you select the transformer you used?
The only one I can find is 'breakout.lib', but that one does not have 2 secondaries that do not have a common connection.
I always use separate inductors. Then you choose a "K" (core) part to couple them. You can couple up to about 6 separate inductors to the same core. In the "ANALOG" library, there is a K-Linear part. I use that and also the non-linear Ferroxcube cores supplied in the full version.
HTH,
.99
Quote from: i_ron on June 28, 2011, 06:37:52 PM
Did a test on the world patent today and it is a good producer... but reflects back to Prime mover
27 1/2 watts out but at a cost of 32 1/2 watts extra on PM
Middle coil...20 + 20mfd
Ron
Good stuff Ron.
Will be interesting to see how it sims out.
.99
If you are looking for some numbers on what it would do as a
generator then d/l the pdf I have. google esl-ie-84-04-137.pdf and
it should be the first entry. Address is at tamu.repository.
thay
Quote from: Thaelin on July 03, 2011, 07:17:08 PM
If you are looking for some numbers on what it would do as a
generator then d/l the pdf I have. google esl-ie-84-04-137.pdf and
it should be the first entry. Address is at tamu.repository.
thay
Thanks Thay,
Have you done any work with this? I can tell you that a concentric wound bifilar doesn't work. In the tables at the end of the PDF there is a column for "control degrees" is this the offset between the windings do you think?
In the one tiny sketch it shows the 'control winding' in a different slot but here again there is a lack of clarity and detail necessary to replicate.
Ron
Ron:
None at all. Just read someone ask if it had been used as a gen. Just happen to be reading the file at the time and passed it on.
thay
Quote from: Thaelin on July 05, 2011, 12:46:06 PM
Ron:
None at all. Just read someone ask if it had been used as a gen. Just happen to be reading the file at the time and passed it on.
thay
OK, thanks
Ron
Here's a sim of that circuit Ron - in generator mode.
Let me know if you'd be interested in seeing anything in particular.
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on July 05, 2011, 07:18:54 PM
Here's a sim of that circuit Ron - in generator mode.
Let me know if you'd be interested in seeing anything in particular.
.99
Thanks! looks good, how does the output compare with the input, not sure how to read the sim... does the output behave in a resonance manner when you vary the caps?
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on July 08, 2011, 09:58:35 PM
Thanks! looks good, how does the output compare with the input, not sure how to read the sim... does the output behave in a resonance manner when you vary the caps?
Ron
Ron,
I went back to a linear core with 100% coupling just to simplify things a bit.
I tried a C value of 50uF, and the 60Hz resonant L value of 140.7239mH for each of L7, L8, and L9, and the result was just a 1:1 output ratio of voltage.
Being that the L's and C's are in quasi-series and/or parallel, perhaps the values are not correct for resonance?
What do you think, and what values would you suggest?
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on July 09, 2011, 02:22:03 PM
Ron,
I went back to a linear core with 100% coupling just to simplify things a bit.
I tried a C value of 50uF, and the 60Hz resonant L value of 140.7239mH for each of L7, L8, and L9, and the result was just a 1:1 output ratio of voltage.
Being that the L's and C's are in quasi-series and/or parallel, perhaps the values are not correct for resonance?
What do you think, and what values would you suggest?
.99
.99, I have seen (I think) where you can make C1 and C2 variable caps in a sim, either that or sweep the frequency?
Dunno, you're the doctor
Ron
Ron,
I'm now looking at this thing and wondering "what is the big deal?". What I see is no matter which operating mode (generator or transformer), after a certain high frequency (determined by XC), aren't the two windings just simply in parallel?
It doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing?
.99
Quote from: i_ron on July 09, 2011, 04:43:08 PM
.99, I have seen (I think) where you can make C1 and C2 variable caps in a sim, either that or sweep the frequency?
Dunno, you're the doctor
Ron
Just to further my comment above, I'm questioning this because a frequency sweep of this patent circuit from 15Hz to 100kHz yields nothing but a 1:1 high-pass response on the output.
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on July 09, 2011, 07:58:18 PM
Ron,
I'm now looking at this thing and wondering "what is the big deal?". What I see is no matter which operating mode (generator or transformer), after a certain high frequency (determined by XC), aren't the two windings just simply in parallel?
It doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing?
.99
Yes, without more information as to what the guy figured was happening it is just another head scratcher... thanks for confirming what I suspected
Ron
Well, in case there is something to this patent and we've missed it, I have translated it and saved it as a pdf, along with the original patent and better patent drawings.
He claims the coil pair is non-inductive.
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on July 10, 2011, 02:10:00 PM
Well, in case there is something to this patent and we've missed it, I have translated it and saved it as a pdf, along with the original patent and better patent drawings.
He claims the coil pair is non-inductive.
.99
Thanks, excellent translation makes for a fascinating read! It would seem then that a better thought out experiment would show some advantages?
Exactly what is implied, non-inductive is anti Lenz?
Ron
Quote from: i_ron on July 11, 2011, 11:21:17 AM
Thanks, excellent translation makes for a fascinating read! It would seem then that a better thought out experiment would show some advantages?
Exactly what is implied, non-inductive is anti Lenz?
Ron
I haven't poured over the entire patent yet, only a few bits. I'll have to print it out and read it before bed (hopefully it won't put me to sleep).
.99
Had a chance to read the patent translation last night.
I still don't see how the inductor can be non-inductive. But, he seems to claim that the effect is at least partially due to the capacitive winding, which of course can not be easily simulated in SPICE. So I think I'll leave this one alone unless/until someone comes up with a brilliant idea.
I would think the best start would be to build the inductor and see if while driving it with an oscillator, it indeed is non-inductive. Ron, have you not already done that with your coil posted on the first page?
.99
Same old, same old! Several related coil windings to create a 90 degree phase shift so they are 180 degrees out of phase to cancel any inductance. They call it capacitive current. This is the same thing its reactive. So this creates VARS and with VARS there is no in phase current and no lugging. There is however massive amount of kinetic energy and standing waves. Result is large increase in magnetic flux which comes from ambient electron from vector tensor. This information pre-dates the patent by several decades it can be challenged! (if you got too much money to waste in court)
Effect on Ambient is non linear can not be seen in SIM's. So as i said on page one you go full circle and can not use a SIM to show OU on simple math program that has no understand of ZPE.
RLC @ PF 0 = OU using applied RF principle.
PS i do like the patent though. Backs up what i have been saying for years :)
I had no intention of looking for, nor expecting to find ZPE with a simulation of that patent. Where did you get that impression from?
While the subject is fresh, please point to any example of someone on any forum that is or has been exploiting ZPE with their Muller-type work. Then please explain the exact physical mechanism being employed to do so.
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on July 12, 2011, 11:38:34 PM
I had no intention of looking for, nor expecting to find ZPE with a simulation of that patent. Where did you get that impression from?
While the subject is fresh, please point to any example of someone on any forum that is or has been exploiting ZPE with their Muller-type work. Then please explain the exact physical mechanism being employed to do so.
.99
Then i don't know what you are trying to model? If you think Muller is conventional electronics and can be modelled using SPICE it can not so im not sure what your objective is especially as the title of this thread is Simulation of the Muller.
"While the subject is fresh, please point to any example of someone on any forum that is or has been exploiting ZPE with their Muller-type work. "
RomeroUK and he is the only one so far that has fully exploited ZPE. Did you not see it powering a lamp and spinning on its own? Its not powered by pixie dust either.
Quote from: bolt on July 13, 2011, 09:37:54 AM
If you think Muller is conventional electronics and can be modelled using SPICE it can not so im not sure what your objective is especially as the title of this thread is Simulation of the Muller.
There are very clear simulation examples that show ZPE is feasible.
I'll give one example: http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=233
Quote from: teslaalset on July 13, 2011, 10:13:45 AM
There are very clear simulation examples that show ZPE is feasible.
http://philica.com/display_article.php?article_id=233
Yes i know all about that i read all his papers. But his model although allows for ZPE unlike SPICE is tad too optimistic on gains. He is out by a factor of about 10. His 1000w device is better 100 watts best theoretical and in practice more like 60-80 watts and requires EXCITATION. See my posts on this.
Quote from: bolt on July 13, 2011, 10:18:08 AM
Yes i know all about that i read all his papers. But his model although allows for ZPE unlike SPICE is tad too optimistic on gains. He is out by a factor of about 10. His 1000w device is better 100 watts best theoretical and in practice more like 60-80 watts and requires EXCITATION. See my posts on this.
If you compare Turtur's simulations to what RomeroUK has done, I am not sure the comparison can be made w.r.t. the efficiency.
In quite some aspects RomeroUK's implementation differ from Turtur's approach.
The directions RomoroUK left us contain aspects that leave much room for efficiency improvements.
If one interpretes Turtur's model well, you'll see that some assumptions are incorrect, but those can be easily corrected.
To conclude Turtur's model is too optimistic is too early to say in my view.
B.t.w. Turtur's model only requires exitation to startup. After that exitation can be left out.
Quote from: poynt99 on July 12, 2011, 06:48:44 PM
Had a chance to read the patent translation last night.
I still don't see how the inductor can be non-inductive. But, he seems to claim that the effect is at least partially due to the capacitive winding, which of course can not be easily simulated in SPICE. So I think I'll leave this one alone unless/until someone comes up with a brilliant idea.
I would think the best start would be to build the inductor and see if while driving it with an oscillator, it indeed is non-inductive. Ron, have you not already done that with your coil posted on the first page?
.99
Thank you all for your input here, it helps with my understanding.
I was mainly concerned with the generator aspect of this patented coil. However I see no real advantage as it does reflect back to the prime mover.
In this setup, as per the patent I have a 24 NSNS magnet rotor at 1740 RPM.Best output is with 2 X 25 Mfd for about 18 watts output. But cost 21 watts extra on the PM. (88%)
12 Mfd brought a drop in output and lower efficiency, (87%)
30 Mfd was the best run at 17 watts output for a cost of 16.8 watts
45 Mfd and it started to drop off again (96%)
Not tried is the supposed increase in magnet field as a motor coil...
Ron
Edit: rectified to DC...20 ohm load
Quote from: poynt99 on June 26, 2011, 09:32:56 PM
WO 2010003394 (A2)
CAPACITIVE WINDING FOR ELECTRIC MOTORS, TRANSFORMERS, AND SOLENOIDS
The invention relates to a capacitive winding which is made of copper wire, has an inductive reactance of zero, is composed of two parallel conductors (1, 2), and is wound like a coil on the soft magnetic core [8]. Both conductors (1, 2) are electrically connected at the beginning of the coil by means of a capacitor (3) and are also electrically connected to a capacitor (4) at the end of the coil. The first conductor (1) is connected to a pole of an oscillating power generator (5) at the beginning of the coil, while the second conductor (2) is connected to the second pole of the oscillating power generator at the end of the coil. The capacitive winding is arranged in the stator and rotor grooves of an electric motor, and the capacitors (3, 4) are mounted outside the motor structure.; Capacitive current that flows through the windings of an electric motor generates a magnetic field in the gap between the stator and the rotor such that the apparent electric power is converted into effective mechanical power.
:o
VIEV...
http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/igor_pavlovic_kuldosin_/