Poll
Question:
The new poll starting 2-4-2012: LENR technology
Option 1: a) will soon lead to the end of the fossil fuel era and become the new standard.
Option 2: b) will compete with fossil fuels for decades to come eventually replacing them.
Option 3: c) will not only phase out fossil fuels but will also lead to the trials of the current corrupt powers in charge.
Option 4: d) will lead to all of the above.
My heart goes out to all those who were very close to making it to the market place first. It appears that all future FREE ENERGY devices will be a hard sell in light of this MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH :)
Our energy independence is finally here!!!
LINKS:
http://pesn.com/2011/09/16/9501915_The_Ultimate_Ni-H_Cold_Fusion_E-Cat_Test/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX0vcU4iedQ
Yes and we will all have flying cars and no Global debt in october too! LOL ...dream on
Quote from: highvoltage on September 16, 2011, 07:34:43 PM
Yes and we will all have flying cars and no Global debt in october too! LOL ...dream on
Yes Sir,
I understand...denial is the first symptom. You are perfectly normal ;)
These are the first four stages involved in any new revolutionary development:
1. It’s nonsense. Don’t waste my time.
2. Oh, it’s interesting but it isn’t important.
3. I always said it was a good idea.
4. I thought of it first.
The video was funny. Its going to have to be dirt cheap for me to buy it from a utility company..
Quote from: IotaYodi on September 16, 2011, 08:28:02 PM
The video was funny. Its going to have to be dirt cheap for me to buy it from a utility company..
Yes, I found the video I posted in the opening of the thread extremely hilarious too. It may not be very far from the actual reaction the greedy oil cartels are experiencing presently. The Nazi theme was a clever choice.
I’m sure the device will be quite expensive even when they roll out a consumer version of the technology. My first VCR cost me $2000.00 when the technology was new and now I can buy one for under $25 dollars.
The commercial entity which sells the power generated by the first power plant will probably not sell the energy at a discount when they can sell it at a premium until the other electrical utility companies purchase the same technology (catch up).
The fact that it will be in the marketplace will be a great boost to the “FREE ENERGY†community’s credibility which will once and for all bury the conventional scientists in their erroneous “laws†of physics.
Chess
I wonder if and when the device will reach public market. I somehow doubt that it will be in the next couple of years (probably never). As always when it's not opensource and companies involved...
What one can find on the net about this device does not sound very encouraging: broken agreements, money problems, legal fights. Something should be ready for testing in October 2011. We will have to wait for the result of these tests to know more, if something conclusive is ever published:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264361.ece (video showing a container with 51 units)
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264362.ece (inconclusive test, possibly 4 to 8 KW)
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3228376.ece
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3228357.ece/BINARY/Defkalion+EFA+breach+press+release+%28pdf%29
http://pesn.com/2011/09/16/9501915_The_Ultimate_Ni-H_Cold_Fusion_E-Cat_Test/ (A test in Upsala is promised)
Hope is good, but does not deliver many calories, for sure not 1 Mega Watt. Andrea Rossi has repeatedly promised many things, but never delivered. He might be onto something, but it seems the technique is far from being understood. I wish mainstream science would do more work on this technique to clarify its true potential. So far it is left to strange money makers.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on September 18, 2011, 11:46:59 AM
What one can find on the net about this device does not sound very encouraging: broken agreements, money problems, legal fights. Something should be ready for testing in October 2011. We will have to wait for the result of these tests to know more, if something conclusive is ever published:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264361.ece (video showing a container with 51 units)
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264362.ece (inconclusive test, possibly 4 to 8 KW)
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3228376.ece
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3228357.ece/BINARY/Defkalion+EFA+breach+press+release+%28pdf%29
http://pesn.com/2011/09/16/9501915_The_Ultimate_Ni-H_Cold_Fusion_E-Cat_Test/ (A test in Upsala is promised)
Hope is good, but does not deliver many calories, for sure not 1 Mega Watt. Andrea Rossi has repeatedly promised many things, but never delivered. He might be onto something, but it seems the technique is far from being understood. I wish mainstream science would do more work on this technique to clarify its true potential. So far it is left to strange money makers.
Greetings, Conrad
The news media didn’t even cover the first flight of the Wright Brothers because they were so far outside the received conventional wisdom.
Modern scientists said that the rings of Saturn were perfectly concentric until the modern day photographic evidence proved they were not thus debunking the science we were taught in school not so long ago.
Hope is a good thing and no good thing ever really dies.
The implications surrounding this exciting announcement are astronomical. I believe this technology will be revolutionary and change the entire balance of the powers that be.
The Saudis currently export oil to countries around the globe but what will they sell us once their oil is not so valuable as it used to be? We already have lots of sand. Their eggs are all in one basket. Devalue this basket and you have wiped out their entire economy. Poverty will rapidly consume them.
I understand why so many people are upset at this announcement as they may be getting ready for the release of their own free energy device and they are unable to beat Rossi to the market place. It is really sad to be a day late and a dollar short but such is life.
Chess
Hi chess, you said,
"The Saudis currently export oil to countries around the globe but what will they sell us once their oil is not so valuable as it used to be? We already have lots of sand. Their eggs are all in one basket. Devalue this basket and you have wiped out their entire economy. Poverty will rapidly consume them."
This would probably be true if they used the same model for human living systems as is currently used in most places.
A new model, as if anything is really new, would be required and that is sharing freely.
The only reason money systems exist is to dominate and control, especially the form it is in now.
Think about it folks, if farmers did not pay extortion, oh i mean rent, taxes, energy, etc., etc.. and I know most farmers do not have the lust for power and greed like the money changers, the farmers could and would share all the food they could with all peoples.
So you see, it is just a matter of perspective. Though this world is a school of remembering (learning).
We are all one big family and the sooner people remember this, the sooner we can all have our flying saucers and all the good technology withheld from us and no more paying to live on the planet.
After all folks, when our parents raised us, they were not asking us for money everyday for food and rent, as if they did we all would not be here, we would have starved by age 2 or less.
Do you see folks. If not, someday you will.
peace love light
tyson
Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on September 18, 2011, 07:40:25 PM
The only reason money systems exist is to dominate and control...
The monetary system setup here in the U.S. is obviously designed to work to the advantage of the bankers. Notice how they got bailed out and not the people who paid the taxes which were used to bail them out. If they got bailed out and we didn’t (which was the case), then at least our debts should be paid in full (as was the failed financial institutions’) and we should all have a clean slate, right? Wrong. Any debt we owed prior to the banker’s bail out is stilled owed to the banks which had their debts already paid. So essentially, the lenders were repaid the debt that they never have to pay back but their bad loans that they were covered for still have to be paid back by the original borrowers. So they will get paid twice; once for their bad debts from the government and then a second time by the people who are in debt to them.
The system is designed to enslave people in the form of debt. But it not only indebts, but it does so perpetually. It’s perpetual debt that can never end which is what our national deficit is about. We borrow money to pay our debt and we’re charged interest for the money we borrow which leads to further debt.
Here’s one video which explains this is greater detail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBRZYrblZ24
The previous point I was trying to make was that Free Energy will virtually bankrupt the current energy vendors of the world thus stripping them of their power and influence over us. We will no longer be energy dependent on the major energy vendors such as the world’s wealthy oil cartels. This is a major, major change.
Chess
Quote from: gauschor on September 18, 2011, 03:40:13 AM
I wonder if and when the device will reach public market. I somehow doubt that it will be in the next couple of years (probably never). As always when it's not opensource and companies involved...
I agree with you 100% mate =) Couldn't of put it better my self. (although, I do generally add something along the lines of no one has ever been successful patenting their COP >1 invention EVER! and that there's a 100% failure rate when it comes to wide spread COP >1 device that every one has potential access to)
So its funny that people like us are seen as "sceptics" .... I would rather use the word "realism".
God Vs. Atheist argument. The onus is on the God argument to prove God exists, NOT Atheists to disprove it. Think about it =)
Hi chess, thanks for that reply and well said, though don't forget that they create the money out of thin air.
Also, while having the excess energy devices will be a good thing for humanity, the money systems and all that goes with it, is the root cause, it is the main tool used to consolidate power and control into a few hands and will be dismantled.
Yes of course, our fake debt should be forgiven, though it's fake, so doesn't make much sense hey.
What makes more sense, is that common law and the true constitution at least in America for starters, need to be followed and all the police, etc. etc. need to be reeducated or put in their place.
And if these people just cannot control themselves from either knowingly or unknowingly harming others on behalf of their so called masters, then they shall be placed somewhere where they can do no harm.
So as you see, actually there is no debt and never was, just an illusion.
WE are the change, where the rubber meets the road as they say, we need to stop self policing ourselves and oppressing and stealing for fear of a paycheck.
That's what all these police, etc. are doing, fearing for a paycheck, how sad it all is. This video is good also, 'Money As Debt'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU&feature=related)
peace love light
tyson
Quote from: chessnyt on September 16, 2011, 06:57:24 PM
My heart goes out to all those who were very close to making it to the market place first. It appears that all future FREE ENERGY devices will be a hard sell in light of this MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH :)
Our energy independence is finally here!!!
LINKS:
http://pesn.com/2011/09/16/9501915_The_Ultimate_Ni-H_Cold_Fusion_E-Cat_Test/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX0vcU4iedQ
Isn't Schizophrenia wonderful! It created God, Perpetual Motion and the belief in invisible friends, can't get better than that.
Nickel is a Hydrogen getter, do you even understand the real process, did you take chemistry at all? Palladium works better than Nickel, when the metal becomes completely Hydrogen saturated the reaction dies, it will require the same amount of energy to desaturated the Nickel of the Hydrogen it captured.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 19, 2011, 10:22:43 AM
Isn't Schizophrenia wonderful! It created God, Perpetual Motion and the belief in invisible friends, can't get better than that.
Nickel is a Hydrogen getter, do you even understand the real process, did you take chemistry at all? Palladium works better than Nickel, when the metal becomes completely Hydrogen saturated the reaction dies, it will require the same amount of energy to desaturated the Nickel of the Hydrogen it captured.
“Did I take chemistry at all?â€. Okay. I have to obviously say yes because it’s true but do you not feel foolish for making the assumption that I had not taken chemistry? When you assume, you make an “ass†out of “uâ€, not me.
Now that we have that out of the way, there is more energy out than was put in at the start. Can you follow my chemistry or is your brain so completely saturated that it can’t absorb such deep concepts?
Now I have a question for you, pompous ass. What is the catalyst Mr. Rossi is using in his process? (and don’t say Nickel) Impress me Mr. assumption...
Quote from: chessnyt on September 19, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
“Did I take chemistry at all?â€. Okay. I have to obviously say yes because it’s true but do you not feel foolish for making the assumption that I had not taken chemistry? When you assume, you make an “ass†out of “uâ€, not me.
Now that we have that out of the way, there is more energy out than was put in at the start. Can you follow my chemistry or is your brain so completely saturated that it can’t absorb such deep concepts?
Now I have a question for you, pompous ass. What is the catalyst Mr. Rossi is using in his process? (and don’t say Nickel) Impress me Mr. assumption...
first of all, there is no cold fusion taking place, it is a simple Hydrogen getting process, this is why fleshmen and Pons did not succeed in their so called cold fusion device, I seen the experiment and the copper sensor did not detect any neutron radiation, there is no cold fusion taking place, it is a simple hydrogen getter catalyst reaction but the nickel since it doesn't have the required heat to desaturated the nickel from Hydrogen it will remain saturated until the required energy is available to do so.
if you actually took chemistry you would already know what reaction is truly taking place, you do not.
cold fusion has been known for 2 decades and every attempt has failed to bring it to light. it's a pipe dream. it is no different here.
I am all for a system that has no moving parts to generate electrical needs, it is just that this technique is incomplete and the formula needs to be greatly enhanced not with nickel, palladium, Platinum(Nickel Group), there is more elements that are needed to complete the process. these elements are a member of the hydrogen getter family.
Here's a tissue, you'll need it.
Jerry 8)
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 19, 2011, 10:22:10 PM
first of all, there is no cold fusion taking place, it is a simple Hydrogen getting process, this is why fleshmen and Pons did not succeed in their so called cold fusion device, I seen the experiment and the copper sensor did not detect any neutron radiation, there is no cold fusion taking place, it is a simple hydrogen getter catalyst reaction but the nickel since it doesn't have the required heat to desaturated the nickel from Hydrogen it will remain saturated until the required energy is available to do so.
Here's a tissue, you'll need it.
Jerry 8)
Well Jerry. I never said it was cold fusion but of course you would have noticed that IF YOU WOULD HAVE BOTHERED TO READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD before making another bonehead assumption.
And just like I thought, you can’t answer my question regarding the catalyst.
What exactly are you “on the cutting edge†of? Another fart? Hmmmmmm….. the only thing you’re on the cutting edge of is making a bigger fool of yourself making all these blind assumptions. You better save the tissue for yourself because you’re on the cutting edge of more gas.
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on September 19, 2011, 10:36:10 PM
Well Jerry. I never said it was cold fusion but of course you would have noticed that IF YOU WOULD HAVE BOTHERED TO READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD before making another bonehead assumption.
And just like I thought, you can’t answer my question regarding the catalyst.
What exactly are you “on the cutting edge†of? Another fart? Hmmmmmm….. the only thing you’re on the cutting edge of is making a bigger fool of yourself making all these blind assumptions. You better save the tissue for yourself because you’re on the cutting edge of more gas.
Chess
what is it that you can not learn from I than the internet itself? I am a hard core researcher of the internet, I do have college level chemistry under my belt, I can tell with out a doubt that you didn't complete very much chemistry if at all. if you did you would not be arguing with what I said to you. a chemist understands the process of Nickel and water experiments, I did this experiment in High school.
here is a sixth grade experiment.
1. take 5 nickels.
2. 2 bowls
3. bowl A. as we will call it will contain 500mL of water and five nickels not touching each other.
4. Bowl B. will contain 500mL of water and no Nickels.
place both bowls in a cool dry dark place.
results. see what bowl (A. or B.) loses their water first.
also, your result of being hurt by my words means you are weak minded, try absorbing it and actually throwing out some useful information that applies to the topic.
I have been following the topic of cold fusion for 20 years now, It is dead in the water as we speak.
Jerry 8)
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 19, 2011, 10:49:24 PM
what is it that you can not learn from I than the internet itself? I am a hard core researcher of the internet, I do have college level chemistry under my belt, I can tell with out a doubt that you didn't complete very much chemistry if at all. if you did you would not be arguing with what I said to you. a chemist understands the process of Nickel and water experiments, I did this experiment in High school.
here is a sixth grade experiment.
1. take 5 nickels.
2. 2 bowls
3. bowl A. as we will call it will contain 500mL of water and five nickels not touching each other.
4. Bowl B. will contain 500mL of water and no Nickels.
place both bowls in a cool dry dark place.
results. see what bowl (A. or B.) loses their water first.
also, your result of being hurt by my words means you are weak minded, try absorbing it and actually throwing out some useful information that applies to the topic.
I have been following the topic of cold fusion for 20 years now, It is dead in the water as we speak.
Jerry 8)
What’s the matter, Jerry? Do you really think people here are too stupid to realize that you are dodging my question? Your last two replies are both poor attempts to avoid my question. Very clumsy, Jerry. Try a third reply?
Quote from: chessnyt on September 19, 2011, 11:00:45 PM
What’s the matter, Jerry? Do you really think people here are too stupid to realize that you are dodging my question? Your last two replies are both poor attempts to avoid my question. Very clumsy, Jerry. Try a third reply?
'
you have no question honorable enough or worth answering, you are following a dead end road, period. enough said.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 19, 2011, 11:08:35 PM
'
you have no question honorable enough or worth answering, you are following a dead end road, period. enough said.
Just like I thought. You don’t have a clue so you think you’ll save some face by making up an excuse not to answer.
And by the way…there is nothing honorable in assuming your way into a thread. Remember that ;)
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on September 19, 2011, 11:15:01 PM
Just like I thought. You don’t have a clue so you think you’ll save some face by making up an excuse not to answer.
And by the way…there is nothing honorable in assuming your way into a thread. Remember that ;)
Chess
what question do you think is honorable in answering? please repeat your question if you think you actually have an honorable question.
let's narrow this down for you.
fighting with me is a lost cause.
I do not cave and I am a scientific pit bull.
Jerry 8)
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 19, 2011, 11:19:49 PM
what question do you think is honorable in answering? please repeat your question if you think you actually have an honorable question.
let's narrow this down for you.
fighting with me is a lost cause.
I do not cave and I am a scientific pit bull.
Jerry 8)
Don’t even try to play that game with me. Nobody here has erased any of my prior postings in this thread. You can read.
Quote from: chessnyt on September 19, 2011, 11:30:05 PM
Don’t even try to play that game with me. Nobody here has erased any of my prior postings in this thread. You can read.
I gave you the opportunity to pose your question (against me), why have you avoided it? you are not making any sense what so ever. give me your question that you are so fond of.
I have argued over a thousand times with true science against scientific dogma, what do you know that I will not destroy.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 19, 2011, 11:38:17 PM
I gave you the opportunity to pose your question (against me), why have you avoided it? you are not making any sense what so ever. give me your question that you are so fond of.
...and yet a sixth reply and you now pathetically pretend you can not read.
Quote from: chessnyt on September 19, 2011, 11:47:15 PM
...and yet a sixth reply and you now pathetically pretend you can not read.
and yet, you avoid your own question.
pose the damn question and be done with it. or do I need to hold your hand?
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 19, 2011, 11:48:56 PM
and yet, you avoid your own question.
pose the damn question and be done with it. or do I need to hold your hand?
You may be someone in your home or a legend in your own mind, but you picked the wrong thread this time, didn't you Jerry? Don’t make me take you to school and show you how to go back and read through this thread. It’s not that long.
Quote from: chessnyt on September 19, 2011, 11:57:55 PM
You may be someone in your home or a legend in your own mind, but you picked the wrong thread this time, didn't you Jerry? Don’t make me take you to school and show you how to go back and read through this thread. It’s not that long.
I am sorry, I am not picking through your assorted questions to find thee question you posed to me, give me thee damn question. if you do not then you are just avoiding a good thrashing.
you can't can you?
sorry, I out school you.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 20, 2011, 12:04:57 AM
I am sorry, I am not picking through your assorted questions to find thee question you posed to me, give me thee damn question. if you do not then you are just avoiding a good thrashing.
you can't can you?
sorry, I out school you.
The problem with you, Jerry, is that you are lazy and you want me to do your homework for you. I will absolutely not repeat the question. If you weren’t so lazy in the first place, you would have read through the thread in the first place and avoided your false assumptions. Repeating the question is also redundant and not fair to those who are actually paying attention.
Also, don’t flatter yourself by calling yourself a pit bull. A pit bull is far more intelligent and knows when he’s been beat.
Chess
@chess
If what your anounsing is not cold fusion, then what do you call it?
I want to know what kind of verification it has??
Thankx
Well,
When you two are done chewin on each other heres someone who has a stake in this game
William R. Lyne
Quote:
THE LYNE ATOMIC HYDROGEN FURNACE IS THE ROSSI-FOCARDI LENR DEVICE
In answer to your wonderings, the Lyne Atomic Hydrogen Furnace is the basis for the Rossi-Focardi LENR device, though the two Italian university professors created an ingenious version of my reaction chamber by packing a stainless steel cylinder completely with the "catalytic metal", nickel. They are not admitting where they got the idea. In 2003, I was made an honorary member of a Rome group of researchers Altra Scienza which can be verified by referring to http://asse.altervista.org/lahg.pdf and Swedish Researchers confirm Rossi and Focardi Energy Catalyzer as a Nuclear Process . I granted the Italian group permission to make copies of my Chapter VI from my1997 book Occult Ether Physics (1998 second ed.). That is apparently how the two university professors in Bologna obtained access to my plans (particularly page 103, "...the reactor surfaces which receive and catalyze the recombining gas atoms.") and page 104, "Activation energy" device (spark plug, catalytic metal, etc.).
I invented the Lyne Atomic Hydrogen Furnace in the embodiment contained in my book. Irving Langmuir discovered the atomic hydrogen reaction and invented the atomic hydrogen blowtorch, but he failed to realize that the process was over-unity because he was a relativist so he calculated (not measured) the input energy as being equal to the output as measured by him. I also invented the idea of the circuitous use of hydrogen over and over so no additional hydrogen is required, and is not "used up" but recycled.
The lack of hydrogen consumption in the Rossi-Focardi LENR and the failure to lose mass even in the long tests providing massive amounts of free energy prove that the process is not "cold fusion" and also disproves Einstein's equation, E=MC squared.
It is my belief that this invention and its energy can only be explained by ether physics, although certain physical processes can be explained by traditional means.
The transmutation of the nickel to copper is a surprise to me but may be explained by k-capture in which an electron is captured by a nickel proton producing a new neutron which would make it copper. I explain the reaction as follows: hydrogen is a light element. All light elements transmute in UV light. Transmutation is a "nuclear" process though it may produce no external harmful radiation. Tesla's theory of radioactivity is that radioactivity is the product of an element or compound with what he called Primary Solar Rays, which in effect can be captured by so-called radioactive elements (and therefore by artificially radioactive elements). So the excess energy is the product of the conversion of the energy of the ubiquitous Primary Solar Ray particles (produced by stars) into IR radiation (heat).
The plans in my 1997 (first ed.) and 1998 (second ed.) are fourteen years old. Since that time I have radically redesigned the furnace in such a way that anything anyone has achieved so far with my information is only scratching the surface.
From here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4298-atomic-hydrogen-furnace-cop-21-a-4.html#post158374
Chet
Thank you Chet. I had been trying to tell Jerry that it is NOT cold fusion and I even stated to Jerry that I NEVER used the term “cold fusion†to describe Rossi’s invention anywhere in this thread. He went on to bash Ponds and Fleishman when their experiments were not the same as Rossi’s. He assumed (without researching) Rossi was using cold fusion.
The technology is awesome and the potential is limitless. I am currently in the process of finishing my own experiments in a different energy from water technology. My lab has been taken over by it. I try to finish what I start.
I think that Rossi’s technology holds the most promise as it is able to recycle the same hydrogen over and over again.
Nice article Chet ;D
Chess
In all fairness, Rossi’s E-Cat technology can be considered a variation of cold fusion. The only reasons I don’t consider it cold fusion per Pons and Fleischmann is because:
a. Rossi uses a different catalyst in his process.
b. Cold fusion per Fleischmann and Pons does not yield a successful result (energy gain) in every experiment thus it lacks consistency and reliability. In fact, to say that the success rate is less than 50% is being generous. Rossi’s E-cat technology yields a successful result (measurable energy gains) in every experiment making it the reliable and viable alternative to cold fusion per Pons and Fleischmann.
c. Pons and Fleischmann used a palladium electrode while Rossi uses nickel.
In order for statement “b†to be true, something must in fact be different between the two technologies and so they can not be considered the same when the results are not consistent with one another.
Rossi has recently announced that he has sold his house in order to raise the capital to ensure the on time completion of the megawatt power plant in October. If he is a fraud, he is now a homeless one. This is certainly not consistent with the M.O. of a con artist.
Chess
Hello everyone,
A specific test date in October has been set and will give scientists from around the world a chance to examine Rossi’s E-Cat up close and see for themselves how the E-Cat performs under testing which is biased against it (as the heat exchanger being used for the testing is NOT 100% efficient) yet Rossi is still claiming it will show measureable energy gains despite the deck being stacked against it.
The date of the testing is October 6, 2011. The following is a list of what we know so far about
the upcoming test:
• It will be a test of the new model of E-Cat module that will be used in the one megawatt plant.
• The module will be opened so the scientists present can measure the weight and volume of all components.
• It will be an extended test of at least 12 hours, but maybe longer.
• The ability of the system to run in a self sustaining mode of operation will be tested.
• There will be two circuits of water, and a heat exchanger that will transfer heat between the two circuits. The first circuit will be closed, and the water in it will be continually recycled. This eliminates the issue of steam dryness.
• The test will be biased against the E-Cat, because some of the heat produced by the reactor will be lost. This is because the efficiency of the heat exchanger will be less than 100%.
• Scientists from around the world have been invited to attend this test.
• Radiation measurements will be taken to show that no radiation is escaping from the reactor.
Here’s a link to the story:
http://pesn.com/2011/09/26/9501920_NobelPrize_Laureate_to_Test_Cold_Fusion_E-Cat/
P.S. If you are sure this technology will be a failure on the big testing date, buy up all the oil futures and other energy related stocks one day before the October 6, 2011 test date. You will be SO rich if you’re right!!! On the other hand, if you believe the Eâ€"Cat will pass these rigorous tests set forth on the 6th, you might want to UNLOAD all your energy related stocks before the test date. If you're right, your energy related stocks will start to plummet before your eyes like never before ;)
It’s a beautiful day!!!!!!!
Chess
I just added a poll to this thread to see where you, the alternative energy buffs, stand on the E-Cat technology and its claims of over unity.
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on September 27, 2011, 08:14:17 PM
It’s a beautiful day!!!!!!!
Chess
You're absolutely right if it turns out to be true for the 6 Million people that are dying every year waiting for the release of such a device to help them.
Lets hope it helps them more than all the investors and Wall Street or worse the gooberment that help to put it in the "Not ready for humans" shelve.
With kind regards,
Paul
Quote from: Goat on September 27, 2011, 11:56:05 PM
You're absolutely right if it turns out to be true for the 6 Million people that are dying every year waiting for the release of such a device to help them.
Lets hope it helps them more than all the investors and Wall Street or worse the gooberment that help to put it in the "Not ready for humans" shelve.
With kind regards,
Paul
@Paul:
A while back, scores of people died in a small town in Mexico due to freezing weather. I remember telling myself “...what assholes we are for letting people die like that in this day and age.†Cheap and abundant energy would have saved these people. It’s not as though they had something incurable like terminal cancer or something like that. But affordable energy, no matter when it comes, will arrive much too late for these people. So I hear you. I think I get it.
Now I would like to know, Paul, just what it is you would contemplate doing with this new energy breakthrough on a small or large scale (providing it passes the upcoming scientific scrutiny) and in what country would you begin installing free energy projects?
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on September 28, 2011, 08:55:36 PM
Now I would like to know, Paul, just what it is you would contemplate doing with this new energy breakthrough on a small or large scale (providing it passes the upcoming scientific scrutiny) and in what country would you begin installing free energy projects?
Hi Chess;
To answer your question above, I myself wouldn't be able to do anything as this invention isn't open sourced and I'm not in a position to start a company that could make/sell this product.
But if it passes the upcoming scientific scrutiny and makes it out to manufacturers through licensing then it could become a reality, anywhere in the world should have access to this technology.
I'd definitely start with the U.S as these wars for oil really have to stop! But as a manufacturer I wouldn't stop there if other countries couldn't make it cheaper.
There's a lot of possibilities in this technology to make the world a better place, obviously it would help the world tremendously, and I'm all for it, but how long would it take to get to the people that really need it urgently is the question. Let's just hope it can get there quickly, too many people are dying for lack of food and water and depend on such a tech to save their lives.
With kind regards,
Paul
Steorn + Mylow + an electric water heater = E-Cat.
Jeeezzz happyfunball, are you serious?
That's an awful negative comment with regards to your avatar name isn't it?
The device hasn't had a "true" scientific scrutiny test yet but it seems to be at least worth one before being called a hoax wouldn't you think?
Regards,
Paul
I think the SEC just stated they will be "re-adjusting the triggers" to prevent large market swings. So if you wait to sell your oil stock, you just may be SOL if this thing hits the media.
:o :o :o
regardless of the outcome of Oct 6th, I will place an open wager to anyone willing to accept of $10,000 that in 1 years time this device will not be available to the average person (definition of average is anyone that has the money to either purchase or make the device) and of course the "device" has to be COP > 1
any takers?
Doesn't matter what I say, there will always be people saying that I am a sceptic etc etc blah blah blah....... truth is, I would love this to be real and in reach of the every day person... but if history is anything to go by, then this will most definitely not happen. I would love to be wrong... you have no idea how much I would like to be wrong....... but like I said, doesn't matter what I say, people will read/hear what they like and hate me for what I say... so what ever... shoot!
Pete
Quote from: Goat on September 29, 2011, 08:40:08 PM
Jeeezzz happyfunball, are you serious?
That's an awful negative comment with regards to your avatar name isn't it?
The device hasn't had a "true" scientific scrutiny test yet but it seems to be at least worth one before being called a hoax wouldn't you think?
Regards,
Paul
Yes, I'm serious. Rossi is following the same pattern as every other con artist.
@Poit .I can not afford to match your wager , even if it was just for 5 dollars . The time is near now when we shall see the truth . Let us be patient . Usually the past is a good guide to the future but not always . Man had probably tried to fly for thousands of years before the Wright Brothers .
@All,
While I *will* say that Rossi's behavior does seem
con-artist like, I give you that, I'd be willing to
bet that in one year (from now) Rossi's process
will be generally accepted as being operational
by average technical people. And several
commercial systems will have been sold.
In other words the shoe will be on the other
foot and his critics will need to scientifically
prove that Rossi's process doesn't work rather
then its supporters proving that it does.
Once science get a hold of it though, I hesitate to think
about what will happen. (probably - new weapons
systems all around :-) ) But hey hopefully without
nickel smog.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: Goat on September 29, 2011, 07:28:10 PM
I'd definitely start with the U.S as these wars for oil really have to stop! But as a manufacturer I wouldn't stop there if other countries couldn't make it cheaper.
There's a lot of possibilities in this technology to make the world a better place, obviously it would help the world tremendously, and I'm all for it, but how long would it take to get to the people that really need it urgently is the question. Let's just hope it can get there quickly, too many people are dying for lack of food and water and depend on such a tech to save their lives.
With kind regards,
Paul
@Paul:
Yes, I agree that the U.S. would be the best country to start implemented the technology and as it stands currently, the U.S. is the location of the E-Cat’s first debut in October with a 1 megawatt power plant.
As far as stopping all of the wars over oil, I’d take that a step further and suggest we stop all the wars period. The Afghanistan war is now a 10 year war with no end in sight. It’s another damn Vietnam. The Russian’s even pulled out of Afghanistan after their invasion and they were 75 times more ruthless than our military is even if you include our new policy which mandates torture. Just by sheer luck, the U.S. government is now bankrupt and will have no choice but to end its frivolous spending habits.
Besides the unnecessary wars we wage on false pretenses, we also still have troops stationed in Germany! And how many years has that war been over now? We still pay for troops that are still stationed in Japan and Korea! I can’t even name all of the places we NEEDLESSLY still try to justify the occupation of our military which drains our tax dollars even further.
Then there’s the Department of Defense and their savvy book keepers. They STILL to this day can NOT even account for over $2.3 T R I L L I O N (with a “Tâ€) dollars they spent. They even admit that it could take years to account for this money they were given even if they brought in outside auditors to help!!! If we can not trust the Department of Defense with large sums of money, then how can we trust them with our war machines and military service men’s lives?
Chess
@Everyone:
The E-Cat testing is only 4 days away now. I would like to thank everyone who participated in the poll attached to this thread. The results are very interesting.
If Rossi succeeds, he will be the first person who has ever had his over unity device both confirmed by the scientific community and brought to market.
I would have to agree with those of you who believe Rossi’s actions are con-artist like behavior if it were not for his most recent activities. He recently had a falling out with one of his backers which left him short the capital to complete his October debut of the technology. Now most con-artists would have used this circumstance to solicit donations and/or investors to further their scam and then made a convenient excuse (e.g. The funds raised fell short of his needs to complete/demonstrate his device) to avoid debuting the technology in order to continue the scam and avoid being exposed. This was not the case.
Instead, Rossi sells his own home and uses the proceeds to ensure the timely release of his technology. Then, he invites respected scientists from all over the world to come to the demonstration and scientifically analyze his device including permission to open up the device to inspect, weigh and take measurements before, during and after the demonstration. Then, he allows the testing to be biased against his device which raises the bar considerably. Now these most recent moves on Rossi’s part are very poor con-artist procedure. They will surely ban him for life from all the upcoming con-artist conventions for this. He will be sued by every fraudulent organization that ever existed. The nerve of this guy! He's leaving con-artists everywhere extremely disappointed.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on October 02, 2011, 11:38:51 AM
@Everyone:
The E-Cat testing is only 4 days away now. I would like to thank everyone who participated in the poll attached to this thread. The results are very interesting.
If Rossi succeeds, he will be the first person who has ever had his over unity device both confirmed by the scientific community and brought to market.
I would have to agree with those of you who believe Rossi’s actions are con-artist like behavior if it were not for his most recent activities. He recently had a falling out with one of his backers which left him short the capital to complete his October debut of the technology. Now most con-artists would have used this circumstance to solicit donations and/or investors to further their scam and then made a convenient excuse (e.g. The funds raised fell short of his needs to complete/demonstrate his device) to avoid debuting the technology in order to continue the scam and avoid being exposed. This was not the case.
Instead, Rossi sells his own home and uses the proceeds to ensure the timely release of his technology. Then, he invites respected scientists from all over the world to come to the demonstration and scientifically analyze his device including permission to open up the device to inspect, weigh and take measurements before, during and after the demonstration. Then, he allows the testing to be biased against his device which raises the bar considerably. Now these most recent moves on Rossi’s part are very poor con-artist procedure. They will surely ban him for life from all the upcoming con-artist conventions for this. He will be sued by every fraudulent organization that ever existed. The nerve of this guy! He's leaving con-artists everywhere extremely disappointed.
Regards,
Chess
The problem is he's already had plenty of chances to have it tested properly but refused to allow it. The home selling drama is farcical. This is what is known as stringing people along.
Quote from: happyfunball on October 02, 2011, 12:46:14 PM
The problem is he's already had plenty of chances to have it tested properly but refused to allow it. The home selling drama is farcical. This is what is known as stringing people along.
plenty of chances? like when specifically? and what were the 'tests' to be performed (specifically) that he (rossi) refused? furthermore, it is not a "problem"... it is his (rossi's) prerogative.
Sounds to me more like this is an inventor that is willing to do anything to get this out to the world and has avoided last ditch efforts by investors to do the usual screw job leaving the inventor with little or nothing. A big Cheers for Rossi and prayers for him and the world that this succeeds as claimed.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 02, 2011, 01:47:35 PM
plenty of chances? like when specifically? and what were the 'tests' to be performed (specifically) that he (rossi) refused? furthermore, it is not a "problem"... it is his (rossi's) prerogative.
Go read the articles on Peswiki like everyone else. Volume of steam output claim keeps going down, etc ad nauseum.
Quote from: happyfunball on October 02, 2011, 01:52:42 PM
Go read the articles on Peswiki like everyone else. Volume of steam output claim keeps going down, etc ad nauseum.
you talk of farcical and then you direct me to peswiki? LMFAO!!! that's rich man, thanks for the laugh!
so... you really have nothing to base your argument upon then do you?
Because of the unique way Rossi has chosen to do this
I think his problem may be that he doesn't understand
"computer process instrumentation and control" very well
if at all. Stuff like "observables, Lagrangian" and other
the neat stuff used to collect data to support a process model.
Of course there is no law against doing things this way.
If he knew at least the basics then he would be able to
apply "self intelligent process controllers" which are able
to find the stability control laws for a system without human
technical intervention.
For example, I would never try to operate his reactor without
a microcontroller to at least collect data. This may be why Rossi
is tied to generating steam with his reactor. In this scenario he uses
the thermal parameters of generating water vapor as a process control
setpoint. He may not know how to derive process stability models for
operating the reactor at a selectable temperature without completely
redesigning it each time.
Always needing steam has made his life difficult because calorimetry
works with water, even though there are probably specialized
instrumentsthat can do calorimetry with steam. His solution
is this dual calorimeter loop that uses a heat exchanger to
let him have his steam but do calorimetry with water.
This might also be why the hoped for Defkalion deal
(which he badly needed for technical reasons) fell through,
they would have wanted not only the process but stability
control logic mechanism other then steam. 100Deg C steam
is a limitation for upgraded energy.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: mscoffman on October 02, 2011, 02:03:37 PM
Because of the unique way Rossi has chosen to do this
I think his problem may be that he doesn't understand
"computer process instrumentation and control" very well
if at all. Stuff like "observables, Lagrangian" and other
the neat stuff used to collect data to support a process model.
Of course there is no law against doing things this way.
If he knew at least the basics then he would be able to
apply "self intelligent process controllers" which are able
to find the stability control laws for a system without human
technical intervention.
For example, I would never try to operate his reactor without
a microcontroller to at least collect data. This may be why Rossi
is tied to generating steam with his reactor. In this scenario he uses
the thermal parameters of generating water vapor as a process control
setpoint. He may not know how to derive process stability models for
operating the reactor at a selectable temperature without completely
redesigning it each time.
Always needing steam has made his life difficult because calorimetry
works with water, even though there are probably specialized
instrumentsthat can do calorimetry with steam. His solution
is this dual calorimeter loop that uses a heat exchanger to
let him have his steam but do calorimetry with water.
This might also be why the hoped for Defkalion deal
(which he badly needed for technical reasons) fell through,
they would have wanted not only the process but stability
control logic mechanism other then steam. 100Deg C steam
is a limitation for upgraded energy.
:S:MarkSCoffman
generating steam for power isn't really "unique"... it's more like the de facto standard
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 02, 2011, 01:55:26 PM
you talk of farcical and then you direct me to peswiki? LMFAO!!! that's rich man, thanks for the laugh!
so... you really have nothing to base your argument upon then do you?
Peswiki is an easy source for all the links to the testing of the 'E-Cat,' much as you are an easy source for endless juvenile flaming.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 02, 2011, 02:13:49 PM
generating steam for power isn't really "unique"... it's more like the de facto standard
I don't expect steam calorimeters for the energy levels
and non-superheated steam levels he was using are that
common, but if they are, why wouldn't he have had
one? My feeling was that title of video seemed to be he
was showing folks around his laboratory, we technical
people on the other hand were starving for additional
process data (which is indeed his fault), and he has been
caught in a demo lie. Most likely he was preconditioning
the units that were on the bench because I suspect his
reactor requires it. This is why one really would like to
have one successful demo that shows all aspects of
all in one place with the demo unit doing it's own
thing for a timeframe that excludes a chemistry
result. The presenter slicing and dicing demo's
indeed raises doubts.
I am ambivalent but I expect, that we shall see.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: happyfunball on October 02, 2011, 02:58:30 PM
Peswiki is an easy source for all the links to the testing of the 'E-Cat,' much as you are an easy source for endless juvenile flaming.
and nowhere there does it say he "refused"... in point of fact this new trial is to address some of the "issues" that were noted in previous trials... ::)
try a cogent response next time... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 02, 2011, 03:25:02 PM
and nowhere there does it say he "refused"... in point of fact this new test is to address some of the "issues" that were noted in previous trials... ::)
try a cogent response next time... ::)
Guess you didn't read the reports about which tests were allowed. I know you're in love with semantics and flaming, so knock yourself out you won't get another response from me.
Quote from: happyfunball on October 02, 2011, 03:28:22 PM
Guess you didn't read the reports about which tests were allowed. I know you're in love with semantics and flaming, so knock yourself out you won't get another response from me.
you're the one claiming he "refused"... i am asking you to back up your claim... specifically. i know you're in love with logical fallacies, assumption, speculation and conjecture, so knock yourself out... back up your claim.
doesn't matter what any of you (and me for that matter) say... actions speak louder than words... its Oct 3 here... 3 more days right? till the device "reaches market" what ever the hell that actually means? what? can i get it on amazon . com on the 6th? is it going to be at Costco on the 6th? is it at the local "markets" what exactly does that mean
I thought I heard God speaking to me the other day, He said, 'YOU SHALL HAVE NO FREE LUNCH!' you know what, I believe him, well, it, well she okay she, it's easier to swallow.
you don't understand a single damn thing your peers taught you, do you? This is very ignorant on your part.
there is no free energy, it comes at price! a heavy price then what it took to get it then there is the other variables attached to it.
unless you want to praise Nuclear energy, 30,000 times more energy than what it took to make it. you are drawing up the wrong cord here. this is a fact.
Anti-matter to matter reaction is the only way to get a 1 to 1 reaction percentage on 99.999% unless you can tame neutrino's from the reaction.
if you can't tame neutrino's then O.U is dead completely.
what else is there?
Quote from: Poit on October 02, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
doesn't matter what any of you (and me for that matter) say... actions speak louder than words... its Oct 3 here... 3 more days right? till the device "reaches market" what ever the hell that actually means? what? can i get it on amazon . com on the 6th? is it going to be at Costco on the 6th? is it at the local "markets" what exactly does that mean
@Poit:
Okay, here we go Poit. Here’s your answer. “…reaches market†are two words. We first must decipher the first word (reaches) in order to make sense of the two words (reaches market) used together.
Now “reach†in this context means to arrive at or get to (a place, person etc.) so then “reaches†in this case means arrives at or gets to. A “market†in this case is a geographical region considered as a place for sales. So then “reaches market†in this context means “arrives at a geographical region considered as a place for sales†(which just so happens to be the United States).
Now for the “in October†part of the thread title; something that arrives in October can arrive on any day of October and still arrive within this month. October 6, 2011 is when it’s going to be tested by scientists from around the world. The 1 megawatt plant is said to go into operation towards the end of October (that would be after the 6th of October 2011 just in case this is confusing for you, Poit). So the commercial deal (transaction) is contractually finalized towards the end of October, 2011. He will not be able to finish the sale until the product is completely installed thus technically, the technology (ready to operate) will reach the market towards the end of October.
I’m sorry for using such complicated English (big words) to title this thread. I would have geared the wording down to the level of a first grader had I known prior to the posting of this thread that you possessed an inadequate vocabulary. My apologies, Poit. I’ll try harder next time. I'm sorry I let you down.
Regards,
Chess
you, chessnut are a moron.
you have absolutely no idea about your peers or if you even care. you'll be the fool to ignore them. sorry, I have spoken.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 02, 2011, 11:29:25 PM
you, chessnut are a moron.
Don't be angry just because you couldn't answer my question (that you ducked several times). Don't tell me...you're on the edge of cutting another fart, right?
Quote from: chessnyt on October 02, 2011, 11:33:08 PM
Don't be angry just because you couldn't answer my question (that you ducked several times). Don't tell me...you're on the edge of cutting another fart, right?
you only have your ancestors to deal with. let them bull whack you.
i don't want to punish you the way they do.
don't steer away from peer review.
peer review will kill you. every time. it is fact.
Quote from: chessnyt on October 02, 2011, 11:18:39 PM
@Poit:
Okay, here we go Poit. Here’s your answer. “…reaches market†are two words. We first must decipher the first word (reaches) in order to make sense of the two words (reaches market) used together.
Now “reach†in this context means to arrive at or get to (a place, person etc.) so then “reaches†in this case means arrives at or gets to. A “market†in this case is a geographical region considered as a place for sales. So then “reaches market†in this context means “arrives at a geographical region considered as a place for sales†(which just so happens to be the United States).
Now for the “in October†part of the thread title; something that arrives in October can arrive on any day of October and still arrive within this month. October 6, 2011 is when it’s going to be tested by scientists from around the world. The 1 megawatt plant is said to go into operation towards the end of October (that would be after the 6th of October 2011 just in case this is confusing for you, Poit). So the commercial deal (transaction) is contractually finalized towards the end of October, 2011. He will not be able to finish the sale until the product is completely installed thus technically, the technology (ready to operate) will reach the market towards the end of October.
I’m sorry for using such complicated English (big words) to title this thread. I would have geared the wording down to the level of a first grader had I known prior to the posting of this thread that you possessed an inadequate vocabulary. My apologies, Poit. I’ll try harder next time. I'm sorry I let you down.
Regards,
Chess
Thank you for the time spent replying to my post. I will ignore the antagonistic remarks at the end. Lets try and keep this civil? Truce?
Peter
Quote from: Poit on October 03, 2011, 12:01:06 AM
Thank you for the time spent replying to my post. I will ignore the antagonistic remarks at the end. Lets try and keep this civil? Truce?
Peter
@Poit:
Very well, Peter. Truce it is.
Regards,
Chess
From what I understand: October 6,2011
is the "scientific" test of one 10KW module
of Rossi's 52 module 1MW reactor. This
features the dual steam/water loop
calorimeter, plus other scientist's tests.
Near the end of the month of October will
be the full up 1MW reactor demonstration
test probably with less outside scientific
interaction and more of a product inauguration.
The demo of the first deliverable 1MW hot water
reactor. I suspect it will be somewhat easier
to determine the energy gain of it, but it will still need
to be done accurately to establish what are
reported to be 3.x times module gains. Of what
is still a rather hefty input feed energy.
---
And you know...he could possibly get competition!
A 150 module household heat pump "reactor"
(with a little more environmental air interaction
over Rossi's; nickel metal mining) could probably
do the same thing as his 1MW e-cat reactor. But I
estimate the price at only $750K and a physical
volume of three times Rossi's and maybe equal or
even better energy gain. So he may have to limit
the price of his magic and lean a little more on his
absolute cost savings, more then one might first
expect.
So, I guess there really is no free lunch.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: e2matrix on October 02, 2011, 01:49:45 PM
Sounds to me more like this is an inventor that is willing to do anything to get this out to the world and has avoided last ditch efforts by investors to do the usual screw job leaving the inventor with little or nothing. A big Cheers for Rossi and prayers for him and the world that this succeeds as claimed.
@e2matrix:
Well put e2matrix. I completely concur. In addition to forcefully maintaining control of the technology, do you think that there were behind the scenes sellout offers he had to resist as well?
Quote from: OscarMeyer on September 20, 2011, 11:51:34 PM
@chess
If what your anounsing is not cold fusion, then what do you call it?
I want to know what kind of verification it has??
Thankx
@Oscar:
This is a good question Oscar because it has changed titles since the arrival of Ponds and Fleischman onto the scene. The technology is now referred to as “Low Energy Nuclear Reactions†or LENR for short. Rossi’s E-Cat technology is essentially a variation of LENR.
As far as the technology (Rossi’s E-Cat) having official “verificationâ€; it does not. During recent testing of the E-Cat, independent scientists pointed out “flaws†in the testing procedures and parameters. This is what Rossi is intending to address on the new October 6th testing date.
I hope this answers your questions.
Best Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
The poll results as of 12:01am, 10/06/2011, are as follows:
64.3% of you said that the E-Cat is nonsense and 35.7% said that it is over unity.
At first I was a little surprised, as the name of this site is “overunity.com†and if you didn’t believe in over unity, you wouldn’t be here in the first place. But then I realized that most of you (if not all) have seen so many over unity scams posted here over the years that I believe a majority of people here have acquired “Pike Syndromeâ€. This would at least account for the high percentage of skepticism.
Well, today is the day!!! The testing will take place today and the results will be posted (in as close to real-time as possible) on the following link:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/News:Real-Time_Updates_on_the_October_6%2C_2011_E-Cat_Test
Here’s the Peswiki article below:
by Hank Mills
Pure Energy Systems News
Page commenced October 5, 2011
On October 6th of 2011, a very important test of Andrea Rossi's E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) will take place in the city of Bologna, Italy. Attending the test will be invited scientists from around the world, including staff from the University of Bologna.
This test may be the most important so far, due to the fact many of the issues that remain unresolved in previous tests, will potentially be resolved. For example, one issue that remained unresolved in tests earlier this year was the issue of steam quality. In this test, the quality of steam will not be an issue. This is because the output of the E-Cat will be a closed circuit, in that the water will be turned into steam, allowed to heat a second flow of water through a heat exchanger, be recycled, and then used again. By removing this issue, the most controversial subject of debate will be eliminated.
Additional issues are also expected to be resolved by this test.
- The E-Cat module will be taken apart (except for the reactor core) so the components can be measured and weighed.
- The test will last for 12 hours or longer.
- The E-Cat module will be allowed to operate in self sustain mode -- with no input power -- for an extended period of time.
- Better measurement and data acquisition techniques will be utilized.
For the next few days, all news and information about the test will be posted below, in as close to real time as possible. Please share and spread the link to this webpage, as we plan to be providing top notch coverage of this pivotal test of the E-Cat.
(BTW, I will be around to answer questions in the comment section.)
Enjoy,
Chess
At present, it looks like the skeptics are in the middle of this big pond that smells kinda bad. I wonder if they have a paddle!
@lumen:
Not just a paddle but how about an entirely new creek as well? (not to mention some physics books that need rewriting)
@Everybody:
The E-Cat performed without any problems at all! Also, it produced energy for 4 hours (in self sustain mode) after ALL of the input power was removed. It was said that it could have kept on running but they intentionally shut down the reactor prematurely in order to give the E-Cat enough time to cool down so scientists and engineers would have ample time to inspect the device opened up. Incredible on cue performance.
Most (if not all) of the data recorded from the testing today should be available tomorrow for the official numbers. Many skeptics that attended the testing have already conceded that it is clearly evident that over unity was achieved. NICE WORK MR. ROSSI!
Any over unity is good over unity and there was plenty of it displayed during today’s testing which appears to be irrefutable evidence that current physic books will have to be rewritten.
If you were with me in the polls on this one, congratulations! You are correct.
Best regards,
Chess
P.S. Time for a little toast in celebration of the dawning of yet a new era!!!!!!!!!
Good News:
"The results of the two tests showed a developed net power of between 2.3 and 2.6 kilowatts â€" of the order of a large stove plate. Input electric power was in the order of 300 watts."
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece
Bad News:
"Andrea Rossi, inventor of the ‘E-cat’, has terminated his agreement with the Greek pilot customer Defkalion. The planned launch of a one megawatt heat plant in October is now supposed to take place in the United States."
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3228376.ece
.
so far so good, keep the good news rolling in.
@ All
Since we haven't heard any mention of this in the mainstream media I just sent a story suggestion to our national broadcast station:
Hello CBC;
Could you please report a news article on this latest ground breaking test of cold fusion. This test has been witnessed by scientists and engineers from around the world, yet we have not heard of it yet in the mainstream media.
This is a very important cold fusion test of Andrea Rossi's E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) which took place in the city of Bologna, Italy yesterday and successfully self sustained for hours with no input! Once all the data has been analyzed it could prove cold fusion as being on the horizon to a very bright and clean energy future for mankind.
I would suggest that people on this forum do the same to their respective national news networks in order to give this some exposure.
It would be nice for the sheeple to watch the truth about LENR unfold before their eyes ;)
Respectfully yours,
Paul Gauthier
Why was the 'self run' test reduced from 12 hours to 4
They cut the self sustaining test off at four hours to give it time to cool down so it could be taken apart so everyone could see the inside, or was it to allow skeptics that are bad at math to maintain a last glimmer of hope to hold onto.
Not really sure now, it was so long ago!
;D
Quote from: Goat on October 07, 2011, 11:38:18 AM
@ All
Since we haven't heard any mention of this in the mainstream media I just sent a story suggestion to our national broadcast station:
Hello CBC;
Could you please report a news article on this latest ground breaking test of cold fusion. This test has been witnessed by scientists and engineers from around the world, yet we have not heard of it yet in the mainstream media.
This is a very important cold fusion test of Andrea Rossi's E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) which took place in the city of Bologna, Italy yesterday and successfully self sustained for hours with no input! Once all the data has been analyzed it could prove cold fusion as being on the horizon to a very bright and clean energy future for mankind.
I would suggest that people on this forum do the same to their respective national news networks in order to give this some exposure.
It would be nice for the sheeple to watch the truth about LENR unfold before their eyes ;)
Respectfully yours,
Paul Gauthier
@Goat:
A very good suggestion Paul and a very good letter to CBC.
I haven’t checked the Dow Index today but I am curious to see what effect this latest development in energy has had on energy related stocks. Specifically, Exxon/Mobile and British Petroleum.
Again, nice work Paul.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: lumen on October 07, 2011, 03:06:21 PM
They cut the self sustaining test off at four hours to give it time to cool down so it could be taken apart so everyone could see the inside, or was it to allow skeptics that are bad at math to maintain a last glimmer of hope to hold onto.
Not really sure now, it was so long ago!
;D
If you say so.
@Everybody:
I just checked the Dow Jones Industrial Average and found out the following:
(Stocks)
• Chevron was down.
• Exxon Mobil was down.
(Commodities)
• Natural gas was down.
• Heating oil was down.
• Unleaded gas was down.
• Oil was down.
There isn’t any hint of an energy technology breakthrough as far as news reported from the Dow but it appears through the numbers that the inside traders are heading for the exits first. They are the only ones that know that energy stocks and commodities are currently at their peak as they will continue to fall dramatically once a mainstream media story is released. Smart move on behalf of the insiders ;)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on October 07, 2011, 05:17:21 PM
@Goat:
A very good suggestion Paul and a very good letter to CBC.
I haven’t checked the Dow Index today but I am curious to see what effect this latest development in energy has had on energy related stocks. Specifically, Exxon/Mobile and British Petroleum.
Again, nice work Paul.
Best regards,
Chess
Thanks for the kind remarks Chess :)
It seems very odd (based on the amount of activity on this thread) that no one on this forum is more interested in the progress of this cold fusion test than there is on any other threads!!!
I know it might be a long ways from us having one of these units to heat or supply electricity in our homes and it's a far cry from the Ponds and Fleishman cold fusion discovery of a few degrees so many years ago.
I can't believe my eyes at how many people would flood other threads on unproven half baked ideas and other anomalies while this story is unfolding before everyone with a promise of clean sustainable energy that would DWARF ANY OTHER DISCOVERIES IN THIS LAST AND NEXT CENTURY!!!
How often have anyone alive can say that they were there when COLD FUSION was finally proven to be a REALITY!!!
Here's to a happy ending as far as I'm concerned.
Please everyone, take some time to expose this truth by writing to your national broadcast channel(s).
Respectfully yours,
Paul
My opinion for what its worth. People feel that they can get in on the action (with the "other" threads you talk of), where as, this thread they feel they are left out. They (my self included) feel like a pure observer, no schematics, no replications (with other members, diagrams, pictures etc).
As positive as all of this sounds, what will this technology eventuate to? Power stations at everyone's house? or maybe just a replacement power station to replace coal, nuclear, etc power plants.
So far things are looking pretty good for Rossi and the tests. I look forward to seeing the test data. Does anyone know exactly when that will be happening?
Poit
Quote from: Poit on October 07, 2011, 10:11:51 PM
My opinion for what its worth. People feel that they can get in on the action (with the "other" threads you talk of), where as, this thread they feel they are left out. They (my self included) feel like a pure observer, no schematics, no replications (with other members, diagrams, pictures etc).
As positive as all of this sounds, what will this technology eventuate to? Power stations at everyone's house? or maybe just a replacement power station to replace coal, nuclear, etc power plants.
So far things are looking pretty good for Rossi and the tests. I look forward to seeing the test data. Does anyone know exactly when that will be happening?
Poit
Hi Poit;
You're quite right when you mentioned that "People feel that they can get in on the action (with the "other" threads you talk of)" and I did not mean to downgrade anyone's endeavors into the unknown truths about OU in any form.
I'm just surprised that not many people or even the OU ADMIN has replied to this thread as it's been progressing.
My comments weren't meant to put down any ongoing research but more as a lack of enthusiasm for the progress that's being made on this history making front as opposed to other threads that are commanding attention without proven tests that prove OU as this one.
Kind Regards,
Paul
Quote from: Goat on October 07, 2011, 10:00:54 PM
Thanks for the kind remarks Chess :)
It seems very odd (based on the amount of activity on this thread) that no one on this forum is more interested in the progress of this cold fusion test than there is on any other threads!!!
I know it might be a long ways from us having one of these units to heat or supply electricity in our homes and it's a far cry from the Ponds and Fleishman cold fusion discovery of a few degrees so many years ago.
I can't believe my eyes at how many people would flood other threads on unproven half baked ideas and other anomalies while this story is unfolding before everyone with a promise of clean sustainable energy that would DWARF ANY OTHER DISCOVERIES IN THIS LAST AND NEXT CENTURY!!!
How often have anyone alive can say that they were there when COLD FUSION was finally proven to be a REALITY!!!
Here's to a happy ending as far as I'm concerned.
Please everyone, take some time to expose this truth by writing to your national broadcast channel(s).
Respectfully yours,
Paul
@Goat:
I agree wholeheartedly with you, Paul, about the lack of interest on this site for clean sustainable OVER UNITY!!! The romeroUK motor thread received more attention and participation and it doesn’t even work!!!!!! Go figure…
I just finished submitting an “Idea for a Story†with a major news carrier.
Rossi has announced that there will be one more test of the E-Cat technology. I’ll let Rossi tell it in his own words as he stated to Ny Teknik yesterday:
“Within a few months the product will be on the market, and the best test is done by the customers who will come back with the product if it doesn’t work†â€" Andrea Rossi
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: Poit on October 07, 2011, 10:11:51 PM
My opinion for what its worth. People feel that they can get in on the action (with the "other" threads you talk of), where as, this thread they feel they are left out. They (my self included) feel like a pure observer, no schematics, no replications (with other members, diagrams, pictures etc).
As positive as all of this sounds, what will this technology eventuate to? Power stations at everyone's house? or maybe just a replacement power station to replace coal, nuclear, etc power plants.
So far things are looking pretty good for Rossi and the tests. I look forward to seeing the test data. Does anyone know exactly when that will be happening?
Poit
@Poit:
I never thought of it from that perspective Peter. It does not have schematics that you can build or experiment with. It’s not open source so the rights to the technology will be reserved. All the exact details of the device have not been disclosed and are considered “confidential†by the inventor so your point is well taken.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Poit on October 07, 2011, 10:11:51 PM
So far things are looking pretty good for Rossi and the tests. I look forward to seeing the test data. Does anyone know exactly when that will be happening?
Poit
@Poit:
The site to download the results of the testing (as recorded by a computer monitoring the device) are at the following link:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece
Half way down the article there are two links for a “detailed report†and “temperature dataâ€. I downloaded both files and one is in PDF format and the other is in Excel format. They are too large for me to post here at OU.com.
The link referenced above may require using the translate feature from your browser. The link appeared in Italian on my screen and I had to use my translate option in my browser menu to display it in English.
Chess
Groundloop reported at O.U.R. forum it seems to be 300 watts in 2.3kw to 2.6 KW out!
Chet
-----------
GroundLoop
Quote:
Good News:
"The results of the two tests showed a developed net power of between 2.3 and 2.6 kilowatts â€" of the order of a large stove plate. Input electric power was in the order of 300 watts."
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece
Bad News:
"Andrea Rossi, inventor of the ‘E-cat’, has terminated his agreement with the Greek pilot customer Defkalion. The planned launch of a one megawatt heat plant in October is now supposed to take place in the United States."
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3228376.ece
@All,
Here is more information.
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264361.ece
GL.
-------------------------------
NEWS
It appears to me that Mr. Rossi is spending considerable time (understandably) protecting his reaction cell from being tampered with/ reverse engineered.
From his actions it seems that his intentions are to never let anyone else build an e-cat module, leaving the production of these to his own company. In the big picture this seems quite limiting in regards to widespread use of the technology.
If/when we get to the point where we move past the questions concerning the validity of the product, the next subject is the philosophy of the inventor. Does anyone here have insight about Mr. Rossi in this regard?
Quote from: ramset on October 08, 2011, 09:04:02 AM
Groundloop reported at O.U.R. forum it seems to be 300 watts in 2.3kw to 2.6 KW out!
Chet
-----------
GroundLoop
Quote:
Good News:
"The results of the two tests showed a developed net power of between 2.3 and 2.6 kilowatts â€" of the order of a large stove plate. Input electric power was in the order of 300 watts."
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece
Bad News:
"Andrea Rossi, inventor of the ‘E-cat’, has terminated his agreement with the Greek pilot customer Defkalion. The planned launch of a one megawatt heat plant in October is now supposed to take place in the United States."
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3228376.ece
@All,
Here is more information.
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264361.ece
GL.
-------------------------------
NEWS
@Chet:
As you stated in your posting, the over unity demonstrated by this technology is undeniable. This is what the people around the world have been waiting for all these centuries yet it’s ironic that other threads (some even off topic from the subject of energy altogether) on this forum are more popular and active irregardless of the fact that no over unity is present.
@Everyone:
What you must all understand is that it was not Andrea Rossi’s idea or desire to install the self destruct mechanism in his reactor chambers’ designs. Rossi was forced to do this by the patent office before they would issue him a patent. The following link will better explain this in detail:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2732080/posts
Now it is important that everyone get behind this technology and help to ensure it reaches the masses. This is not only about your future. This is about your children’s futures and their children’s futures along with all the future generations to come. We can’t let this opportunity die. It may be centuries before another breakthrough such as this comes along if ever.
Best regards,
Chess
Sounds like the "Eye of Horus" project we have as a thread here. I must work today, would one of you please research that thread and post links, thank you. BFN If it works like the thread then we call can make our own (insure you have shielding before you heat it up please).
Quote from: Hope on October 08, 2011, 02:45:38 PM
Sounds like the "Eye of Horus" project we have as a thread here. I must work today, would one of you please research that thread and post links, thank you. BFN If it works like the thread then we call can make our own (insure you have shielding before you heat it up please).
I found a link that gives a pretty accurate overview of the technology and its byproducts, Hope.
The link below has also opened my eyes to the possible explanation for the mainstream media’s eclipse of this wonderful new revolutionary discovery:
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2011/04/10661/media-ignores-energy-breakthrough-worry-free-nuclear-power?page=4
“Most of the news about the E-Cat has been reported in blogs operated by people and organizations interested in energy issues, and in the general press and media in Italy, Sweden, Greece and throughout Europe. By contrast, the Energy Catalyzer has received virtually no coverage in the U.S. mainstream media. The American media seems either unwilling or unable to grasp the potential significance of the Energy Catalyzer, or is omitting discussion of it for other reasons. The absence of news about the Energy Catalyzer, one could postulate, might be because it poses a threat to powerful American corporations that both control big media outlets and are vested in the energy production status quo. (Think General Electric, which both owns NBC and manufactures traditional nuclear fission reactors.) There would also appear to be motive enough to continue this news block as climate change pushes more policymakers to reconsider the more dangerous traditional nuclear power, and as corporations that benefit from recent huge price hikes in fossil fuels continue to rake in fabulous wealth with no end in sight.â€I had no idea that General Electric owns the powerful news media outlet NBC or that it also manufactures traditional nuclear fission reactors. No wonder NBC has blacked out ALL coverage of this important new discovery.
I was so pissed off and outraged about the unscrupulous practices I discovered through the above article that I am going to make a personal mission on my own behalf to boycott ANY products that are produced by General Electric in the future by patronizing its competitors EVEN if I have to pay more for the product. And by the way, GE stock is down so poetic justice isn’t far behind.
Chess
Concerning the Oct 6 Rossi LENR Demo,
Rossi for the first time showed his reactor's self powered continuous
mode. For about 100Watts of AC input power that was supplied by an
"oscillatory device", which I take to mean a square wave frequency
generator, he can keep his reactor running continuously at about the
4KW level once the reactor has reached the 100deg. C set-point, boiling
water. Rossi does not say how he injects the AC power into the reaction
chamber nor does he say the frequency used. It could be higher then
the utility line frequency or below it, as he has yet to disclose this
information.
The reason for observer's delay in reporting results is, I think, technical
people there were taken aback by the above being demonstrated for the first
time, and Rossi's tendency to use scientific and instrumentation
methods that are about 30 to 40 years obsolete. These two things create
unexpected implications for the observers who then have to go back and
rethink them. So the demo could *not* be called a clear-cut high resolution
demonstration of Rossi's reactor for this reason. In Rossi's favor one may
guess that a lack of financial resources are precipitating him to use outdated
methodologies.
Here are some of these Rossi's instrumentation drawbacks;
a) lack of a multipoint input multiplexer so that all instrumentation data
can be entered into a one computer. A number of data channels had to be
discarded simply because of his recording method wouldn't allow them.
This included excising instantaneous flow rate data from the calorimeter.
This would have allowed one computer to sample things at it's own rate
and create timestamps for the data. So for the most part data was taken
by hand. Also more channels would have allowed verification using outside
observers instrumentation tools for comparison by offering them use of a
spare data channel during the experiment.
b) Many of his instruments were not computer interfaced.
c) He has no variable flow rate calorimeter. He has to set the flow
rate manually ahead to the maximum flow rate he is going to need
all during high energy conditions. This cause the calorimetry flow
to act as a heat sink when devices should be warming up and created
low accuracy useless data at the beginning of the experiment. If Rossi's
calorimetry is state of the art then, I am getting into this field.
d) By in large, operations were done by hand and not by any programmable
controller. This caused readings to be taken only once and not receive
any repeat verification. He had to make settings ahead of the time that
the actual observations were to be taking place.
You can see the actual observation data at the Nysec web link.
Because some of us expected Rossi methods to not be first class, I
think, it helped us in evaluating the results. I have done a miniature spreadsheet
below that lists very approximate values to try to show what is gong on during
the demonstration and that we can expect to see during the 1MW demonstration.
Rossi' could make the actual 1MW demonstration "hotter" by boosting
hydrogen gas pressures. These should be eventually controlled by a
bellows type automatic transducer so they can be used as an input
control variable eventually IMHO.
Approximate Figures
Stage1 - Warm Up Stage2 - Stable Stage3 - Continuous Self Power
2KW 2KW 100W ; Module input power (watts)
0+KW 6KW 4KW ; Module output power (heat eqv. watts) inclds inpt.
first 3 hours next hour next 3 hours ; Demonstration times
COP 0.0 COP 3.0 COP 40.0 ; Module Gain
--- Estimated will be observed in a 1MW reactor test ; Below this point -- calculated 1MW not observed
104KW 104KW 5.2KW ; 1MWr 1 chamber per module active Input power
0+KW 312KW 208KW ; 1MWr 1 chamber per module active Output
COP 0.0 COP 3.0 COP 40.0 ; 1MWr 1 chamber per module reactor Gain
312KW 312KW 15.6KW ; 1MWr 3 chambers per module active Input
0+KW 936KW* 624KW ; 1MWr 3 chambers per module active Output
COP 0.0 COP 3.0 COP 40.0 ; 1MWr 3 chambers per module reactor Gain
Notes: The output power drops with input power during self sustain because input power adds to output.
Output power needs to be supported by adequate flow rate.
*~~1MW if all three chambers in 52 modules are used
624KW are output in high efficiency self sustain mode which is lower due to lack of input power
208KW are output in single chamber mode with existing hardware.
- low output cost and infrastructure issues operating in self sustain mode.
@Mr. Coffman:
It’s over Mr. Coffman, unless you possess credentials that supersede the credentials of two Swedish scientists who carefully examined the demo setup and declared it a nuclear reaction and that the output energy was considerably greater than the input energy. These two Swedish scientists were the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society and the chairman of the Energy Committee of the Swedish Royal Academy of Science. (The one that nominates people for the Nobel Prize! ::)). So if you don’t possess some expertise above even one of these individuals, then you’re in no position to override their conclusions as they were there, Mr. Coffman. Kindly refrain from trying to discredit a technology in which you were NOT even present to make a valid determination of.
It’s over! It’s not a matter of “if†anymore, Mr. Coffman. It’s a matter of when and where.
Sincerely,
Chess Knight
Quote from: chessnyt on October 08, 2011, 03:50:34 PM
@Mr. Coffman:
It’s over Mr. Coffman, unless you possess credentials that supersede the credentials of two Swedish scientists who carefully examined the demo setup and declared it a nuclear reaction and that the output energy was considerably greater than the input energy. These two Swedish scientists were the chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society and the chairman of the Energy Committee of the Swedish Royal Academy of Science. (The one that nominates people for the Nobel Prize!). So if you don’t possess some expertise above even one of these individuals, then you’re in no position to override there conclusions as they were there, Mr. Coffman. Kindly refrain from trying to discredit a technology in which you were NOT even present to make a valid determination of.
It’s over! It’s not a matter of “if†anymore, Mr. Coffman. It’s a matter of when and where.
Sincerely,
Chess Knight
Mr Chess Knight,
You really need to read my post for carefully before
you inaccurately characterize it as being negative!
Nowhere in it do I say that the results of the
test were negative in fact it indicates the results
were quite sufficiently positive.
I am critical of the man Rossi and his methods and
this is simply a summary of those criticisms most
which are most likely held by others attending the demonstration.
You see, nothing is really black and white. Rossi's
demonstration was horrible but not a failure and
I was attempting to explain why. Also, there are cost issues
associated with running 1MW reactor hardware
below full power output that needs to be considered
in the future. The reaction may be success but the product
can still fail in the marketplace - A Rossi selection,
I might add. This real lack of having a high resolution demonstration may also be a factor in US press refusing to report it.
So please next time, read first before you post.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: mscoffman on October 08, 2011, 04:10:41 PM
Mr Chess Knight,
You really need to read my post for carefully before
you inaccurately characterize it as being negative!
Nowhere in it do I say that the results of the
test were negative in fact it indicates the results
were quite sufficiently positive.
I am critical of the man Rossi and his methods and
this is simply a summary of those criticisms most
which are most likely held by others attending the demonstration.
You see, nothing is really black and white. Rossi's
demonstration was horrible but not a failure and
I was attempting to explain why. Also, there are cost issues
associated with running 1MW reactor hardware
below full power output that needs to be considered
in the future. The reaction may be success but the product
can still fail in the marketplace - A Rossi selection,
I might add. This real lack of having a high resolution demonstration may also be a factor in US press refusing to report it.
So please next time, read first before you post.
:S:MarkSCoffman
@Mr. Coffman:
In an earlier posting of yours, you tried to compare Rossi’s device with a heat pump. This is absolutely preposterous! Heat pumps have been around for quite some time and if they could equal the performance of the E-Cat in self-sustain mode, then they would be used by the public right now to power their homes. Now if a heat pump is running your house, right now, then I will apologize for taking your last post in a negative way.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on September 16, 2011, 08:02:39 PM
These are the first four stages involved in any new revolutionary development:
1. It’s nonsense. Don’t waste my time.
2. Oh, it’s interesting but it isn’t important.
3. I always said it was a good idea.
4. I thought of it first.
Spot on Chess
I reckon Rossi has got it.I have seen replication attempts at cold fusion years ago at universities ,these replications were not true replications more attempt to discredit cold fusion.
I like This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu_iwdjf1gI
Regards Dave High energy particle physics retired
Chess,
I run a small website (http://www.stuffundertherug.com/) designed to keep alive information that the government would rather suppress. I added a few articles in regards to Rossi. If you think I should add more, by all means, send me links :)
Poit
Quote from: Poit on October 08, 2011, 09:58:28 PM
Chess,
I run a small website (http://www.stuffundertherug.com/) designed to keep alive information that the government would rather suppress. I added a few articles in regards to Rossi. If you think I should add more, by all means, send me links :)
Poit
@Poit:
I visited your site which was full of interesting stories that ranged in subject matter from the FBI to Apple, who is suing Samsung over patent infringement.
This following link is to a respected UK technology media outlet which did a feature article on the E-Cat. The rest are an assortment of miscellaneous sites.
http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-10/06/e-cat-cold-fusion
http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3322
http://www.midasoracle.org/2011/10/07/scientific-review-of-andrea-rossis-e-cat-report/
http://coldfusion3.com/blog/bologna-e-cat-test-a-success
This last link is a video made on the day the E-Cat was tested of the test itself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8raJiIZWInY&feature=player_embedded
Best regards,
Chess
I look at it this way. Chances of two neuclei fusing in an atomic lattice are way better than fusing in a heated plasma magnetically confined or whatever. Hot fusion is like trying to have two bullets collide and become one bullet and the two guns they are shot from are miles apart. Now if the two guns share a common barrel then the odds are significantly increased that the bullets will fuse especially if the common barrel is slightly longer than the diameter of the bullet. Not sure if Rossi is claiming fusion but a simple test for helium production would be a place to start.
So... as of today, there is still no confirmed radiation within the chamber and this thing is still being called LENR? Is that right?
Quote from: happyfunball on October 09, 2011, 11:19:16 AM
So... as of today, there is still no confirmed radiation within the chamber and this thing is still being called LENR? Is that right?
@Happyfunball:
No, there were no measurements taken of radiation levels from within the reactor. There were also no measurements taken for tritium levels or helium as well.
There were two main issues Rossi was trying to address in his most recent testing. One was that the device was able to produce energy well after ALL EXTERNAL POWER was removed from the unit. The second issue (that was argued about extensively by top scientists in the test prior to the most recent one) was the quality of steam issue. This was addressed by incorporating a heat exchanger which was NOT 100% efficient thus leading to heat measurements much lower than they should have been. But even despite the deck stacked against it from the start, the device was able to easily demonstrate over unity performance which qualified independent scientists concluded could only have come from a nuclear reaction (ruling out other types of reactions such as chemical ones, etc.).
As far as radiation goes, even Paul Pantone’s GEET reactor was proven by a third party to emit enormous amounts of radiation (because he used no lead shielding at all), however, later it was determined that the radiation was not Gamma or any other harmful type of radiation being emitted from his reactor.
So radiation can be produced by lower temperature (lower than hot fission temperatures) reactions and comes as not such a surprise when you consider other low energy reactions can produce radiation.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on October 09, 2011, 12:20:06 PM
@Happyfunball:
No, there were no measurements taken of radiation levels from within the reactor. There were also no measurements taken for tritium levels or helium as well.
There were two main issues Rossi was trying to address in his most recent testing. One was that the device was able to produce energy well after ALL EXTERNAL POWER was removed from the unit. The second issue (that was argued about extensively by top scientists in the test prior to the most recent one) was the quality of steam issue. This was addressed by incorporating a heat exchanger which was NOT 100% efficient thus leading to heat measurements much lower than they should have been. But even despite the deck stacked against it from the start, the device was able to easily demonstrate over unity performance which qualified independent scientists concluded could only have come from a nuclear reaction (ruling out other types of reactions such as chemical ones, etc.).
As far as radiation goes, even Paul Pantone’s GEET reactor was proven by a third party to emit enormous amounts of radiation (because he used no lead shielding at all), however, later it was determined that the radiation was not Gamma or any other harmful type of radiation being emitted from his reactor.
So radiation can be produced by lower temperature (lower than hot fission temperatures) reactions and comes as not such a surprise when you consider other low energy reactions can produce radiation.
Regards,
Chess
I find this user comment from Peswiki quite interesting. I suspect it is at the core of this scam:
"After consulting with various people and reading data reports it is unfortunate that the following has to be concluded.
1. Rossi specifically disallowed anyone to know the location of the output thermocouple. This is the same mistake Levi made in February. The thermocouple is not measuring the water flow temperature. It is measuring the temperature of the metal block in contact with the heater.
2. The rise of the temperature after turning off the power is clear evidence that the thermocouple is in the wrong position for taking data. It will never pass real scrutiny.
3. http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Rossi6Oct2011Review.pdf"
Quote from: happyfunball on October 09, 2011, 04:39:07 PM
I find this user comment from Peswiki quite interesting. I suspect it is at the core of this scam:
"After consulting with various people and reading data reports it is unfortunate that the following has to be concluded.
1. Rossi specifically disallowed anyone to know the location of the output thermocouple. This is the same mistake Levi made in February. The thermocouple is not measuring the water flow temperature. It is measuring the temperature of the metal block in contact with the heater.
2. The rise of the temperature after turning off the power is clear evidence that the thermocouple is in the wrong position for taking data. It will never pass real scrutiny.
3. http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Rossi6Oct2011Review.pdf"
@Happyfunball:
I’ll let Rossi address your question. Pay close attention to the statements in
bold print. The following is a direct quote from Rossi himself earlier today:
Andrea Rossi
October 9th, 2011 at 2:26 AM
David Roberson,
Good question, and opportune indeed.
“NOT ONLY I CONFIRM THAT I VERIFIED THAT THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN THE EXHAUST STREAM UNDER OPERATING CONDITIONS HAS BEEN MEASURED AND MATCHES THE READING SEEN ON THE TEST THERMOCOUPLES, BUT EVERYBODY CAN EASILY CHECK IT EVERYWHERE WITH FEW DOLLARS , WITHOUT ANY RISK:
IN THE REPORT MADE BY NYTEKNIK THERE ARE THE PHOTOS OF THE CONNECTORS WHERE WE PUT THE THERMOCOUPLE; JUST GO IN ANY SHOP FOR PLUMBERS AND BUY THE SAME ARTICLE ( IT COSTS LESS THAN 10 $). ONCE YOU GOT IT, GO IN YOUR BATHROOM , CONNECT THE TOY WITH RUBBER HOSES ( ANY RUBBER HOSE) AND MAKE HOT WATER FLOW IN ONE ROW, AND COLD WATER FLOW IN THE OTHER, PUT AT THE OPPOSITE SIDE. ONCE YOU DID THIS, TAKE A THERMOMETER AND MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE IN THE EXACT PLACE WHERE WE PUT THE THERMOCOUPLE, THEN MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE AT A DISTANCE OF A COUPLE OF INCHES AFTER SUCH POSITION, ALONG THE WATER FLOW. IF YOU FIND ANY DIFFERENCE, LET ME KNOW: I NEVER DID . OF COURSE, THE MORE DISTANT YOU GO, THE MORE THE TEMPERATURE DECREASES, SO IT IS LOGIC THAT TO MEASURE THE POWER WE HAVE TO STAY IN PROXIMITY OF THE WATER FLOW EXIT.
I WANT TO ADD THAT, TO ANSWER TO THE FRAUDOLENT STATEMENTS MADE FROM THE SNAKES PAID BY THE USUAL WELL KNOWN TO DISCREDIT AND BLACKMAIL US (YES, I REPEAT: BLACKMAIL US):
1- THE CALCULATION OF ENERGY MADE BY THE SNAKES ARE EMBARASSINGLY WRONG, JUST ANALYZE THE RATIO BETWEEN THE ENERGY INPUT AND THE ENERGY OUTPUT IN THE PUBLISHED REPORTS. BY HTE WAY: TO BE HONEST, THE REAL EFFICIENCY SHOULD BE CALCULATED AFTER 3 P.M., WHEN THE E-CAT WAS STABILIZED, BUT, NEVERTHELESS, ALSO BEFORE IT THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY PRODUCED HAS BEEN MORE THAN THE CONSUMED…READ CAREFULLY THE PERIODS OF RESISTANCE SWITCH ON/SWITCH OFF DURING THE FIRST HOURS, BEFORE 3 P.M.: THE RESISTANCE HAS A POWER OF 2.5 Kw AT FULL LOAD, SO IF YOU MAKE IT GO 10 MINUTES YES AND 10 MINUTES NO YOU CONSUME 1.25 kWh/h, WHILE THE PRODUCTION WAS WELL ABOVE…AND WE WERE IN THE START UP UNSTABILIZED PHASE !!! AFTER THAT, WE WORKED WITH THE RESISTANCE FOR FEW MINUTES AND 3 AND A HALF HOURS WITHOUT RESISISTANCE TURNED ON. EVERYBODY CAN READ IT VERY CLEARLY IN THE NYTEKNIK REPORT.
2- IT HAS BEEN FRAUDOLENTLY WRITTEN IN THE BLOGS OF THE SNAKES THAT THE DEVICE HAS BEEN NOT WEIGHTED: FALSE, THE E-CAT AND ALSO THE CALORIMETRIC ASSEMBLY HAVE BEEN WEIGHTED BEFORE AND AFTER THE TEST, AND THIS IS CLEARLY WRITTEN IN THE SAME REPORT OF NYTEKNIK: CLEARLY, THE SNAKES THINK THAT THEIR READERS ARE SO STUPID NOT TO BE ABLE TO READ THE REPORT, BUT, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THEM, IT IS NOT SO. I WANT TO UNDERLINE THAT NOT ONLY ALL HAS BEEN WEIGHTED, BUT ALSO THAT AT THE END OF THE TEST I HAVE DISASSEMBLED IN FRONT OF ALL THE ATTENDANTS ALL THE PIECES, AND TAKEN OFF THE INSUILATION TO MAKE WELL CLEAR THAT EVERY COMPONENT WAS CLEAN, THAT THERE WERE NOT BATTERIES, OR ANY KIND OF POTENTIAL ENERGY SUPPLY INSIDE THE E-CAT AND INSIDE ALL THE OTHER COMPONENTS; FOR THIS REASON WE HAD TO STOP THE E-CAT, (WE FINISHED AROUND MIDNIGHT) OTHERWISE IT WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO WORK ALONG THE SAME EFFICIENCY REACHED AFTER THE STABILIZATION.
ALL THESE OPERATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE IN FRONT OF HIGH LEVEL SCIENTISTS ARRIVED FROM: UNIVERSITY OF UPPSALA, UNIVERSITY OF PARIS, UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA, US NAVY, RESEARCH CENTER OG CHINA, HIGH LEVEL INDUSTRIAL CONCERNS, UNIVERSITY OF ATHENS, AND I AM SURE I AM FORGETTING SOME: I ALLOWED ALL THIS PEOPLE TO BE PRESENT AN LOOK AT ALL THE OPERATIONS MADE DURING THE TEST: WEIGHTING, DISASSEMBLING, OPERATION, EVERYTHING! BESIDES: WEIGHTING ETC HAS NOT BEEN MADE BY US, TEMPERATURES HAVE NOT BEEN CONTROLLED BY US, BUT BY THE ATTENDANTS.A SNAKE HAS WRITTEN THAT INSEDE THE E-CAT THERE WAS DIESEL OIL TO BE BURNT………JUST LOOK AT THE WEIGHTS: AT THE END OF THE OPERATION THE E-CAT WEIGHTED SOME GRAM MORE THAT BEFORE THE OPERATION….
Thank you for your question, very useful.
Warm Regards,
A.R.â€
SOURCE:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=300479616635504
Quote from: chessnyt on October 09, 2011, 05:12:44 PM
@Happyfunball:
I’ll let Rossi address your question. Pay close attention to the statements in bold print. The following is a direct quote from Rossi himself earlier today:
Andrea Rossi
October 9th, 2011 at 2:26 AM
David Roberson,
Good question, and opportune indeed.
“NOT ONLY I CONFIRM THAT I VERIFIED THAT THE WATER TEMPERATURE IN THE EXHAUST STREAM UNDER OPERATING CONDITIONS HAS BEEN MEASURED AND MATCHES THE READING SEEN ON THE TEST THERMOCOUPLES, BUT EVERYBODY CAN EASILY CHECK IT EVERYWHERE WITH FEW DOLLARS , WITHOUT ANY RISK: IN THE REPORT MADE BY NYTEKNIK THERE ARE THE PHOTOS OF THE CONNECTORS WHERE WE PUT THE THERMOCOUPLE; JUST GO IN ANY SHOP FOR PLUMBERS AND BUY THE SAME ARTICLE ( IT COSTS LESS THAN 10 $). ONCE YOU GOT IT, GO IN YOUR BATHROOM , CONNECT THE TOY WITH RUBBER HOSES ( ANY RUBBER HOSE) AND MAKE HOT WATER FLOW IN ONE ROW, AND COLD WATER FLOW IN THE OTHER, PUT AT THE OPPOSITE SIDE. ONCE YOU DID THIS, TAKE A THERMOMETER AND MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE IN THE EXACT PLACE WHERE WE PUT THE THERMOCOUPLE, THEN MEASURE THE TEMPERATURE AT A DISTANCE OF A COUPLE OF INCHES AFTER SUCH POSITION, ALONG THE WATER FLOW. IF YOU FIND ANY DIFFERENCE, LET ME KNOW: I NEVER DID . OF COURSE, THE MORE DISTANT YOU GO, THE MORE THE TEMPERATURE DECREASES, SO IT IS LOGIC THAT TO MEASURE THE POWER WE HAVE TO STAY IN PROXIMITY OF THE WATER FLOW EXIT.
I WANT TO ADD THAT, TO ANSWER TO THE FRAUDOLENT STATEMENTS MADE FROM THE SNAKES PAID BY THE USUAL WELL KNOWN TO DISCREDIT AND BLACKMAIL US (YES, I REPEAT: BLACKMAIL US):
1- THE CALCULATION OF ENERGY MADE BY THE SNAKES ARE EMBARASSINGLY WRONG, JUST ANALYZE THE RATIO BETWEEN THE ENERGY INPUT AND THE ENERGY OUTPUT IN THE PUBLISHED REPORTS. BY HTE WAY: TO BE HONEST, THE REAL EFFICIENCY SHOULD BE CALCULATED AFTER 3 P.M., WHEN THE E-CAT WAS STABILIZED, BUT, NEVERTHELESS, ALSO BEFORE IT THE AMOUNT OF ENERGY PRODUCED HAS BEEN MORE THAN THE CONSUMED…READ CAREFULLY THE PERIODS OF RESISTANCE SWITCH ON/SWITCH OFF DURING THE FIRST HOURS, BEFORE 3 P.M.: THE RESISTANCE HAS A POWER OF 2.5 Kw AT FULL LOAD, SO IF YOU MAKE IT GO 10 MINUTES YES AND 10 MINUTES NO YOU CONSUME 1.25 kWh/h, WHILE THE PRODUCTION WAS WELL ABOVE…AND WE WERE IN THE START UP UNSTABILIZED PHASE !!! AFTER THAT, WE WORKED WITH THE RESISTANCE FOR FEW MINUTES AND 3 AND A HALF HOURS WITHOUT RESISISTANCE TURNED ON. EVERYBODY CAN READ IT VERY CLEARLY IN THE NYTEKNIK REPORT.
2- IT HAS BEEN FRAUDOLENTLY WRITTEN IN THE BLOGS OF THE SNAKES THAT THE DEVICE HAS BEEN NOT WEIGHTED: FALSE, THE E-CAT AND ALSO THE CALORIMETRIC ASSEMBLY HAVE BEEN WEIGHTED BEFORE AND AFTER THE TEST, AND THIS IS CLEARLY WRITTEN IN THE SAME REPORT OF NYTEKNIK: CLEARLY, THE SNAKES THINK THAT THEIR READERS ARE SO STUPID NOT TO BE ABLE TO READ THE REPORT, BUT, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THEM, IT IS NOT SO. I WANT TO UNDERLINE THAT NOT ONLY ALL HAS BEEN WEIGHTED, BUT ALSO THAT AT THE END OF THE TEST I HAVE DISASSEMBLED IN FRONT OF ALL THE ATTENDANTS ALL THE PIECES, AND TAKEN OFF THE INSUILATION TO MAKE WELL CLEAR THAT EVERY COMPONENT WAS CLEAN, THAT THERE WERE NOT BATTERIES, OR ANY KIND OF POTENTIAL ENERGY SUPPLY INSIDE THE E-CAT AND INSIDE ALL THE OTHER COMPONENTS; FOR THIS REASON WE HAD TO STOP THE E-CAT, (WE FINISHED AROUND MIDNIGHT) OTHERWISE IT WOULD HAVE CONTINUED TO WORK ALONG THE SAME EFFICIENCY REACHED AFTER THE STABILIZATION. ALL THESE OPERATIONS HAVE BEEN MADE IN FRONT OF HIGH LEVEL SCIENTISTS ARRIVED FROM: UNIVERSITY OF UPPSALA, UNIVERSITY OF PARIS, UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA, US NAVY, RESEARCH CENTER OG CHINA, HIGH LEVEL INDUSTRIAL CONCERNS, UNIVERSITY OF ATHENS, AND I AM SURE I AM FORGETTING SOME: I ALLOWED ALL THIS PEOPLE TO BE PRESENT AN LOOK AT ALL THE OPERATIONS MADE DURING THE TEST: WEIGHTING, DISASSEMBLING, OPERATION, EVERYTHING! BESIDES: WEIGHTING ETC HAS NOT BEEN MADE BY US, TEMPERATURES HAVE NOT BEEN CONTROLLED BY US, BUT BY THE ATTENDANTS.
A SNAKE HAS WRITTEN THAT INSEDE THE E-CAT THERE WAS DIESEL OIL TO BE BURNT………JUST LOOK AT THE WEIGHTS: AT THE END OF THE OPERATION THE E-CAT WEIGHTED SOME GRAM MORE THAT BEFORE THE OPERATION….
Thank you for your question, very useful.
Warm Regards,
A.R.â€
SOURCE:
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=300479616635504
Ok. We'll eventually see who's telling the truth I guess.
Quote from: happyfunball on October 09, 2011, 06:30:22 PM
Ok. We'll eventually see who's telling the truth I guess.
@Happyfunball:
“IN THE REPORT MADE BY NYTEKNIK THERE ARE THE PHOTOS OF THE CONNECTORS WHERE WE PUT THE THERMOCOUPLE†â€" Andrea Rossi (10-9-2011)
The photos are pretty good hard evidence regarding the thermocouple “scam†accusation. Also, since the attendees were taking the measurements and examining everything, I think they would be able to easily expose Rossi if he were lying in his last statement as they were there.
“I think this will go forward fairly rapidly now. If it does, this is capable of, by itself, completely changing geo-economics, geo-politics, and solving climate issues.†â€" Dennis Bushnell (Chief Scientist of NASA Langley)
Of course, Dennis could be in on the scam with all the other scientists who all signed a secret pact with KAOS ::)
Regards,
Chess
This one line out of the NYTechnic report worries me a hell of a lot
Quote* Digital bathroom scale used for weighing the E-cat. It was calibrated by
two persons knowing their weight.
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3284962.ece/BINARY/Test+of+E-cat+October+6+%28pdf%29
If calibration of the scales is that shoddy how can one take any claims seriously.
Rossi is letting everyone down by such poor methodology.
CC
I find it sad that if one person comes up with a device that could solve the energy problem,there are some not very happy people who will always claim
it is a Scam.They should turn there attention to the Real scam which no one
mentions."Hot Fusion"Promises Promises Promises "Since The 1950`s.We were told we would have unlimited energy,Taxpayers money Billions of it have been spent on the biggest Scam of all.
So how many people here have spent a penny on The E-Cat?
Now the guys at Culham are now trying Lasers to see if that will work bully for them,more money to play the game.Those who have worked in that area will know what I am talking about.
I shall ring the Tax office and tell them to give my remittance to Rossi instead.
Any that's my rant for today .
Cheers Dave
Quote from: firlight on October 10, 2011, 07:14:55 AM
I find it sad that if one person comes up with a device that could solve the energy problem,there are some not very happy people who will always claim
it is a Scam.They should turn there attention to the Real scam which no one
mentions."Hot Fusion"Promises Promises Promises "Since The 1950`s.We were told we would have unlimited energy,Taxpayers money Billions of it have been spent on the biggest Scam of all.
So how many people here have spent a penny on The E-Cat?
Now the guys at Culham are now trying Lasers to see if that will work bully for them,more money to play the game.Those who have worked in that area will know what I am talking about.
I shall ring the Tax office and tell them to give my remittance to Rossi instead.
Any that's my rant for today .
Cheers Dave
I agree with 100%. But we can not allow false accusers to rob us of this new energy breakthrough. The stakes are much too high. They're not going to rob my children of a technology which will solve our energy problems and help to deal with climate change. I will fight them tooth and nail until dirt is pushed over my grave. And I do not apologize for this. Not now AND NOT EVER!!!!!
Chess
That reaction chamber looks a lot like a Geet device chamber. I wonder if he gets the temperature to an exchange temperature using compression caused by physical restriction. It would be a easy way to boil water. The only expansion path of least restriction would be the enlargment opening at the output. The steam would naturally pull the next input water thru the restriction creating more boiled water. The reaction rod in the Geet has shown similar reactions, it goes from +400 C and on exit -100C just passing through the constriction rod area. Couple that output thru a "water" version of an air vortex tube (that separates hot and cold air) and reflux the heated part over the heat sink on the reaction chamber to cause it to happen again and again. Someone comment on this please!
no device reaches market anytime soon this century :P
Quote from: firlight on October 10, 2011, 07:14:55 AM
"Hot Fusion"Promises Promises Promises "Since The 1950`s.We were told we would have unlimited energy,Taxpayers money Billions of it have been spent on the biggest Scam of all.
So how many people here have spent a penny on The E-Cat?
AnD that's my rant for today .
Cheers Dave
DEAR DAVE,
HOT FUSION OR COLD FUSION... BOTH ARE USED TO DRIVE A GENERATOR AND ARE ALREADY OBSOLETE SINCE A GENERATOR WHICH DRIVES ITSELF HAS ALREADY BEEN CREATED: ;)
Detroit OEM Ottawa Demo PART 2http://www.youtube.com/user/ThaneCHeins?feature=mhee
DUTCH REGENERATIVE ACCELERATION GENERATOR (ReGenX) REPLICATION:
http://www.youtube.com/user/overunityguide#p/a/u/0/kzxc3Ai4T3A
CHEERS
Thane
Regenerative Acceleration Generator Technology represents major breakthrough in EV and HEV design which will now allows all EVs to CONTINUALLY RECHARGE THEIR BATTERIES and may provide UNLIMITED RANGE. Below is a video demonstration PDI provided for a Michigan based OEM which explains how the technology can be integrated into any EV, HEV or ICE vehicle.
Industry comments; CHRYSLER ELECTRIFIED POWERTRAINS
- The technology looks really interesting and is revolutionary. I would like to learn more about the technology. Is it possible to organize a demo or a lecture in the USA?"
GENERAL MOTORS
- "This sounds interesting. I'd like you to connect with our Fuel Economy Learning Program manager, to schedule a time for you to come in
and share the technology with us. We need to know more about the Physics behind it".
"I have talked with my colleagues in GM US about your solution for vehicles. So, we would like more details about fuel economy and emissions regarding it
Do you have any company that use this approach in vehicles? I am open for discussion".
MERCEDES-BENZ
- "It would be fitting for the inventor of the automobile to be first with your revolutionary technology and for me to play a role in that would be awesome!"
NISSAN Japan
- "Thanks for providing technical information. If the effect of your invention is really true, I am sure there will be strong needs in the market.
How can you prove this on an actual electric vehicle, for example by making a prototype using our Nissan Leaf?
I would like to discuss your business model and financial requirements, investment needs, business plan."
NEIL YOUNG
- "We would like to find a way to use your technology in our LincVolt Project".
EV WORLD
Mike Brace, EV World Tech Editor
- "When we finally understand what Thane Heins has discovered, we likely will have to rewrite the laws of electromagnetism." http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1890
NASA
Erik Clark NASA-Goddard Space Flight Center
- "The magnetics lab here at Goddard expressed some interest in having you come down to do a colloquium"
US AIR FORCE
Omar Mendoza, Program Manager Energy & Environmental Quality Air Force Research Laboratory Wright Patterson
- "We really are more interested in developing its use and application for military power requirements"
CANADIAN SPACE AGENCY
Gilles Leclerc, Canadian Space Agency Space Technologies
- "I have asked Mr. Gilles Brassard, A/Director, Spacecraft Payload here at the Canadian Space Agency to look at your technologies and to visit your laboratory"
ELECTRIC MOBILITY CANADA
Mike Elwood, Chairman Electric Mobility Canada and Vice President of Azure Dynamics
"This is a freakin game changer!"
ELECTRIC MOBILITY CANADA
Al Cormier, Executive Director Electric Mobility Canada
- "I am writing to ask you to submit what you feel would be an appropriate document to describe your regenerative acceleration technology for circulation to our Committee members"
OTTAWA UNIVERSITY
Dr. Habash, University of Ottawa
- "Of course it accelerates... this represents several new chapters in physics, that is why we are consulting MIT"
UNIVERSITY OF TORONTO
Dr. Stanley Townsend, University of Toronto & Former Managing Editor of the Canadian Journal of Physics
- "Thane, Your Press Release was most interesting to me as a physicist & an engineer.
The level of technical detail was adequate to tell me that you probably have made a very significant advance
in applied physics & in safely & successfully handling a new source of electric power.
Congratulations!"
MIT
Dr. Marcus Zahn
- "It works and it is not something I would have expected, now I am just trying to figure it out"
RUSSIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCE
Dr. Evstigneev N.M., Institute for System Analysis, Russian Academy of Science
- " A number of your experiments are not lying in the field of Maxwellian electrodynamics"
UNIVERSITY OF CONCORDIA
Professor Joseph Shin, Concordia University
- "This is absolutely fascinating stuff you are doing"
ROCKY MOUNTAIN INSTITUTE
Mike Simpson, Transportation Analyst Rocky Mountain Institute
- "You seem to have made an interesting discovery. Our internal physics experts review this information and have determined that it is very interesting work"
PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS OF ONTARIO
Donald Wallace, Executive Director Ontario Centre for Engineering and Public Policy
- "Would you be willing to contribute an article on this technology to the Journal for Engineering and Public Policy?"
CANADIAN ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF SCIENCE
David Mann, Canadian Association for the Advancement of Science
- "If possible would like to meet with you to discuss your approach to the Association and of course to get a better feel about the physics behind your invention. I would still like to see what you are doing and perhaps we can include some of your material on our website newsletter?"
PDI Media Press
http://www.oneradionetwork.com/new-technologies/thane-heins-inventor-of-the-infinity-generator-just-imagine-no-more-energy-exploitation-september-1-2011/ http://pesn.com/2011/08/28/9501905_Thane_Heins_Regenerative_Acceleration_Generator/
http://www.mevio.com/episode/293349/fen-110824
http://www.cbc.ca/outoftheirminds/2011/07/26/episode-5---thane-heins/
http://www.cbc.ca/outoftheirminds/2011/08/29/episode-10---what-makes-them-tick/
http://thetechjournal.com/tech-news/major-breakthrough-in-ev-technology-to-recharge-batteries-conitually-with-infinite-range.xhtml
http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1890
http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/300042
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/article/17096--the-next-great-canadian-idea-peripiteia-generator
http://thefulcrum-research.blogspot.com/2011/01/truly-unbelievable.html
http://keyrecords.com/designers/thanes.html
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=31887883-be00-4d3c-8763-d96564794cae
"How do we make the world work for 100% of humanity in the shortest possible time
-through spontaneous cooperation without ecological damage or disadvantage to anyone?"
-- Dr. R. Buckminster Fuller
CONGRATULATIONS THANE! That is Awesome! It looks like things are moving along very well. I do think there may still be applications where Rossi's technology may be useful if it pans out. I'll be thrilled to see any and all better energy technologies put into use.
Quote from: CRANKYpants on October 10, 2011, 10:51:41 AM
DEAR DAVE,
HOT FUSION OR COLD FUSION... BOTH ARE USED TO DRIVE A GENERATOR AND ARE ALREADY OBSOLETE SINCE A GENERATOR WHICH DRIVES ITSELF HAS ALREADY BEEN CREATED: ;)
Detroit OEM Ottawa Demo PART 2
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThaneCHeins?feature=mhee
DUTCH REGENERATIVE ACCELERATION GENERATOR (ReGenX) REPLICATION:
http://www.youtube.com/user/overunityguide#p/a/u/0/kzxc3Ai4T3A
CHEERS
Thane
Thanks Thane
Will check your inventions out ,mabe do some tests.
Regards Dave
@Thane:
I reviewed your technology and your videos and I must say, it is quite impressive work. I can’t wait to see your technology out on the market. I would love to see a self running generator make everything else obsolete. I hope you beat out your competition.
Speaking of the market; whoever arrives first makes out the best. You know what they say about second place. How much money will people have left once they own their first over unity device? Even if the new over unity device is better, any over unity is good over unity and so the impact will be smaller.
"Andrea Rossi, the inventor of the E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) has asked for the help of the alternative energy community, in designing the case for his home heating product. He has asked for the community to submit concepts, so he can purchase the best idea from the individual who submitted it!"
Here’s the link:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Cold_Fusion_E-Cat_Case_Design_Competition
I sound like an E-Cat representative. I could get paid for this :) Honest to God, or the devil, or atheism, or whoever and whatever you believe in, I am not working for Andrea Rossi and I’m not making a dime off of his technology. Honestly Stefan. Not a penny.
THE BAD NEWS:
Anyways, here’s the bad news on the E-Cat. As some of you predicted, it WILL NOT BE ON THE MARKET IN OCTOBER. The deal with the U.S. company fell through and that is why he hasn’t shipped the 1 megawatt unit. It’s still on Rossi’s premises.
THE GOOD NEWS:
Rossi is now going to focus on smaller commercial units. He intends to have them ready for sale within a few months. This is the unit you and I can own.
These units will NOT produce electricity. They will be for heating water in your house and replace your hot water heater. I’m just glad that the technology will at least be out in the world. Then, should something bad happen to Rossi, at least his secrets will be in our homes which will make this technology much harder to suppress.
Best regards to all,
Chess
you are forgetting to do the experiment I told you chestnut, about placing nickels in a bowl of water and using a controlled bowl of water along side it in a cool dark place. The nickel is an absorber of Hydrogen, when it gets full of hydrogen it stops reacting, the temperature is not hot enough to purge this Hydrogen from its atomic matrix. the reaction will die when it is full.
If you don't test it you will just be a fool of yourself. Test It! I have seen this done in Elementary school. it's a 6th grade experiment!
the first over unity device.
http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinventions/a/atomic_bomb.htm
it produces 30,000 times more energy than what it took to produce it.
the Hydrogen bomb is another story.
The Anti-matter bomb is a future story and nothing can beat it as far as a matter to matter reaction.
a dimensional space rip is the only other contender.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 10, 2011, 11:53:37 PM
you are forgetting to do the experiment I told you chestnut, about placing nickels in a bowl of water and using a controlled bowl of water along side it in a cool dark place. The nickel is an absorber of Hydrogen, when it gets full of hydrogen it stops reacting, the temperature is not hot enough to purge this Hydrogen from its atomic matrix. the reaction will die when it is full.
If you don't test it you will just be a fool of yourself. Test It! I have seen this done in Elementary school. it's a 6th grade experiment!
@Jerry:
I would do the experiment, but this isn’t what Rossi is doing. He is using nickel and he is also using hydrogen but he is also using a “trade secret†third element. Right out of the starting gate, the experiment would not even include all of the same ingredients thus I could not get his results.
Also, his reactor is under pressure and he is using what looks to me to be a variable transformer (for the power supply) in conjunction with a PWM (I could be wrong…just guessing from the photos) when he is beginning to get the reaction started. Also, he may be using deuterium oxide (commonly known as heavy water) in his reactor. There are too many unknowns.
I believe you about the experiment with nickels. If you were to see pictures of my 240 square foot lab and some of its equipment, I think you might find that I am just a wee bit beyond grade school science experiments. I may decide to do a YouTube video from my lab in the very near future so everyone can see exactly what I am experimenting with currently. It will be a little surprise for you Jerry, as I have never made a video of my lab research ever before.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 11, 2011, 12:04:30 AM
the first over unity device.
http://inventors.about.com/od/astartinventions/a/atomic_bomb.htm
it produces 30,000 times more energy than what it took to produce it.
the Hydrogen bomb is another story.
The Anti-matter bomb is a future story and nothing can beat it as far as a matter to matter reaction.
a dimensional space rip is the only other contender.
@Jerry:
I hope you are not implying that I can power my house with an atomic bomb. It has to be practical over unity with no radioactive waste to dispose of.
Chess
then I look forward to it.
Quote from: chessnyt on October 11, 2011, 12:51:28 AM
@Jerry:
I hope you are not implying that I can power my house with an atomic bomb. It has to be practical over unity with no radioactive waste to dispose of.
Chess
well, actually, if you are on that special power grid, a controlled nuclear reaction could be powering your house.
not to say it is or that you'd approve.
in all applicable energy conversion theories there is a waste, like in Anti-matter to matter reaction, there are Gamma -Rays and Neutrinos.
but to be a Godly race, you have to increase that factor trillions fold. this is where a rip in space time and dimension make make it possible to own the power of a Universe and control it.
just a theory but some of the greatest minds support this idea.
If Rossi's home type unit can produce hot enough water then I'll be some inventive types like us can get it to produce electricity. ;) If it can be turned up enough to produce steam the rest is fairly easy. Add steam turbine plus generator = Electricity :D
Quote from: e2matrix on October 11, 2011, 01:10:26 AM
If Rossi's home type unit can produce hot enough water then I'll be some inventive types like us can get it to produce electricity. ;) If it can be turned up enough to produce steam the rest is fairly easy. Add steam turbine plus generator = Electricity :D
Also, his home unit could be used in conjunction with a radiator to heat an entire home ;)
Quote from: chessnyt on October 11, 2011, 01:33:33 AM
Also, his home unit could be used in conjunction with a radiator to heat an entire home ;)
someone with a greater mind will overcome you, don't think penny Anni energy, think big. Rossi's idea is going to plop not pop. in fact, more like a fizzle.
third element? what would this be? I only have 2 years of college chemistry, I'd be interested into this further or do you have any methodology behind Rossi's third element?
i can verify rossi's third element if I knew what that element was? if it is verifiable then I will support this group.
until then, I wish you luck, you'll need it.
and don't mind the gaping hole in your side if you are are wrong. I know you will be prompt on being wrong, again.
Quote from: chessnyt on October 08, 2011, 04:32:23 PM
@Mr. Coffman:
In an earlier posting of yours, you tried to compare Rossi’s device with a heat pump. This is absolutely preposterous! Heat pumps have been around for quite some time and if they could equal the performance of the E-Cat in self-sustain mode, then they would be used by the public right now to power their homes. Now if a heat pump is running your house, right now, then I will apologize for taking your last post in a negative way.
Regards,
Chess
Rossi self sustained mode was more of a rumor
until it was first demonstrated on Oct 6. My
calculations on competitiveness with the heat
pumps were done prior to that with figures from
prior demonstrations.
If subtracting input power from a low COP 2-4
gain device decreases it's output power the
way models say, then one would need to derate
the reactor output which would affect it's
net production value downward in self-sustain
mode.
Secondly, we don't know what Rossi wants
to charge for the 1MW reactor but I saw
something about $40M, which is about $1M
per module.
I was simply pointing out that he doesn't
necessarily have the flexiblity that he thinks
he has and I question whether now is the
right time for Rossi to "bet the house" as
it were. If he runs out of money one
possibility is that he sells out and puts
this technology firmly on-the-self.
No question, Rossi can keep changing things
until it does what no heat pump can do.
But self sustained mode should decrease
total output by the amount of input if no
power is stored in the device This would
limit its net value again.
These low high-temp-reservoir temperature
devices like both heatpumps and the current
Rossi reactor (ie. non-superheated steam) don't
suit well for an upgraded electrical power
generator. I'd much rather see Rossi working
on increasing the reactor's high temperature
head while he leaves an organization to specify
and build his products.
And yes, the place where I reside use heatpumps
for heating, as they seem particularly popular around
here.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 11, 2011, 01:46:54 AM
someone with a greater mind will overcome you, don't think penny Anni energy, think big. Rossi's idea is going to plop not pop. in fact, more like a fizzle.
third element? what would this be? I only have 2 years of college chemistry, I'd be interested into this further or do you have any methodology behind Rossi's third element?
i can verify rossi's third element if I knew what that element was? if it is verifiable then I will support this group.
until then, I wish you luck, you'll need it.
and don't mind the gaping hole in your side if you are are wrong. I know you will be prompt on being wrong, again.
for a guy who is talking about not liking morons and retards over in the economic disaster thread and only liking smart people, you must hate looking in the mirror every morning...
it's penny
ante... as in the ante for a game of cards... tu stultus es.
edit: where are all the skeptics(believers) like happyfunball? must have a mouth full of crow or something.... ;)
Quote from: mscoffman on October 11, 2011, 03:38:07 PM
...These low high-temp-reservoir temperature
devices like both heatpumps and the current
Rossi reactor (ie. non-superheated steam) don't
suit well for an upgraded electrical power
generator. I'd much rather see Rossi working
on increasing the reactor's high temperature
head while he leaves an organization to specify
and build his products.
And yes, the place where I reside use heatpumps
for heating, as they seem particularly popular around
here.
:S:MarkSCoffman
@Mr. Coffman:
I never said heat pumps weren’t used to change the air temperature in a home. I just guessed that you were not running your home on one (and off the grid).
I would much rather see something even more enticing. Yes, I too would like to see the home unit put out superheated steam complete with a unit to dry the steam so it can be used to drive a steam turbine (they are destroyed when exposed to wet steam) which in turn drives an electric generator. But that’s not going to happen. In a perfect world, maybe.
So I am going to settle for the model he is willing to put on the market (providing I can afford it). This is still history in the making. BIG HISTORY.
Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
It appears that the deal with Rossi's first customer is being worked out after all. The following quote is from an article appearing yesterday at PESN.COM.
http://pesn.com/2011/10/15/9501934_Cheap_power--An_overnight_revolution--commentary/
"Hopefully this will be the beginning (after the Oct. 28 private test by the first 1 MW customer, which I will be attending) of a favorable barrage, long overdue coverage by the mainstream press and blogs."
Also, here's an excellent article on the E-Cat and its possible impact on the world:
http://www.networkworld.com/columnists/2011/101411-backspin.html
I find one statement from the article very interesting. The following quote from the article is an explanation in detail as to why Rossi's deal with his first customer (here in the U.S.) almost fell through:
"One thing that will slow down the adoption of cold fusion technology is its "nuclear" component that governments and bureaucrats are likely to resist, blocking shipments of components and finished units over unwarranted fears of anything "nuclear". Already, this has impeded this technology that was supposed to have been demonstrated in the United States, were it not for regulation issues in shipping it here."
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on October 16, 2011, 08:28:04 PM
@Everyone:
It appears that the deal with Rossi's first customer is being worked out after all. The following quote is from an article appearing yesterday at PESN.COM.
http://pesn.com/2011/10/15/9501934_Cheap_power--An_overnight_revolution--commentary/
"Hopefully this will be the beginning (after the Oct. 28 private test by the first 1 MW customer, which I will be attending) of a favorable barrage, long overdue coverage by the mainstream press and blogs."
Also, here's an excellent article on the E-Cat and its possible impact on the world:
http://www.networkworld.com/columnists/2011/101411-backspin.html
I find one statement from the article very interesting. The following quote from the article is an explanation in detail as to why Rossi's deal with his first customer (here in the U.S.) almost fell through:
"One thing that will slow down the adoption of cold fusion technology is its "nuclear" component that governments and bureaucrats are likely to resist, blocking shipments of components and finished units over unwarranted fears of anything "nuclear". Already, this has impeded this technology that was supposed to have been demonstrated in the United States, were it not for regulation issues in shipping it here."
Regards,
Chess
I hope it will seriously impact on the Big Energy Companies,It seems to me that
A Energy Revolution is going Hand In Hand with The Global Revolution World Wide.
Regards Dave
Quote from: firlight on October 17, 2011, 08:45:13 AM
I hope it will seriously impact on the Big Energy Companies,It seems to me that
A Energy Revolution is going Hand In Hand with The Global Revolution World Wide.
Regards Dave
@Dave:
I hope so too because we have been held hostage ever since the Bush administration illegally and secretively allowed the major American oil companies to merge back together creating a huge monopoly. That is why gasoline prices have skyrocketed from $1.50 a gallon when Bush Jr. first took office to over $5.00 a gallon as he was on his way out. They gouged the HELL out of Americans. They still are gouging the HELL out of us all today. That is what monopolies do.
The Sherman Act is what is supposed to protect us from monopolists like the giant oil cartels. It was the Sherman Act which forced the breakup of John D. Rockefeller’s oil monopoly in his day with his company named Standard Oil. The Sherman Act also allowed us to break up other corporate monopolies too, such as the telecommunications monopoly called AT&T.
This is what happens when the corporate interests get their hands on the political machine. They install political leaders which do their bidding for them and to hell with the rest of us. That’s why the economy tanked on us in the first place. While millions of Americans were losing their homes to foreclosure after getting laid off, the oil companies were turning in record profits. Billions upon billions of dollars every three months (business cycle quarter).
People had no idea why Bush picked Condoleezza Rice for his cabinet but I did. It wasn’t because of her political experience. It was because of her oil expertise as she sat on the board of directors for a company called Chevron for 10 years prior to going to the White House. Chevron was so pleased with her agenda, they even named a super tanker after her. That is until the media got wind of the story and Chevron quitely renamed the supertanker.
So it is also my hope, Dave, that Rossi’s technology will completely and unmercifully destroy the entire oil industry for starters and replace the other energy empires simultaneously.
Best Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Loner on October 17, 2011, 09:15:44 PM
Chess, I don't want to sound like a Moron, but....
Such a concept, as in destroying the greatest economical power on the planet, is the perfect recipe for war. Please accept that, as that is the truth.
Such a change, if it is to be, must be spread out over a decade or two to prevent collapse of the existing worldwide economy/infrastructure. This would be the desired outcome of the "Oil economy controllers". I don't feel comfortable in explaining it better, or using names to identify specific players.
I hate to say the above things, but reality does, sometimes slap us in the face. Let us "Hope" that the tech is real, but too expensive initially, so that it can take over slowly. (Even if it isn't, if you understand my meaning...)
Just a thought to ponder, for those involved in the reality of changing the worlds power base. (Political or energy, as they ARE related...)
@Loner:
Although I respect you as an extreemely talented alternative energy researcher and your opinion as well, I disagree with you here, Loner.
I think the recipe for war (like the war the oil cartels want to wage in Iran) is basically an overwhelming desire for a resource that leads greedy men to murder the rightful owners in order to have it all. Only they don't do the fighting. My kids and your kids get to do the dieing while the cowardly oil cartels get to make all the profits. They don't even have to pay either financially or personally for the wars they get our military to wage. That's where you and I come in. The wealthy 1% gets the 99% to throw their kids in the dog fight to be maimed and killed while they count our money they have collected from us by gouging us and avoiding paying their fair share of the taxes.
And if this continues to be the case, this recipe will end up fully cooked by the angry 99%.
Respectfully,
Chess
Hi folks, I'll put it as simply as is possible.
What you focus on, you empower to create.
peace love light
Quote from: chessnyt on October 17, 2011, 08:41:13 PM
@Dave:
I hope so too because we have been held hostage ever since the Bush administration illegally and secretively allowed the major American oil companies to merge back together creating a huge monopoly. That is why gasoline prices have skyrocketed from $1.50 a gallon when Bush Jr. first took office to over $5.00 a gallon as he was on his way out. They gouged the HELL out of Americans. They still are gouging the HELL out of us all today. That is what monopolies do.
The Sherman Act is what is supposed to protect us from monopolists like the giant oil cartels. It was the Sherman Act which forced the breakup of John D. Rockefeller’s oil monopoly in his day with his company named Standard Oil. The Sherman Act also allowed us to break up other corporate monopolies too, such as the telecommunications monopoly called AT&T.
This is what happens when the corporate interests get their hands on the political machine. They install political leaders which do their bidding for them and to hell with the rest of us. That’s why the economy tanked on us in the first place. While millions of Americans were losing their homes to foreclosure after getting laid off, the oil companies were turning in record profits. Billions upon billions of dollars every three months (business cycle quarter).
People had no idea why Bush picked Condoleezza Rice for his cabinet but I did. It wasn’t because of her political experience. It was because of her oil expertise as she sat on the board of directors for a company called Chevron for 10 years prior to going to the White House. Chevron was so pleased with her agenda, they even named a super tanker after her. That is until the media got wind of the story and Chevron quitely renamed the supertanker.
So it is also my hope, Dave, that Rossi’s technology will completely and unmercifully destroy the entire oil industry for starters and replace the other energy empires simultaneously.
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess,
I am totally with you on this one!
The Rossi device will create a huge boom in the job market as his device takes over EVERYTHING except for plastics , fertilizer and lubrication.
So they can still make a good living, they just need to sell a few of those extra homes on the lake they own.
Quote from: Loner on October 17, 2011, 09:15:44 PM
...destroying the greatest economical power on the planet, is the perfect recipe for war. Please accept that, as that is the truth.
Leaving this bully to dominate our political system and its constituents is even a greater recipe for perpetual war against additional foreign countries containing vast amounts of crude oil. This is also a recipe for the never ending deaths of our nation’s youth who end up fighting and dieing over this corporate black gold.
“
Do you think that someone who has the ability to stay in power would not use EVERY possible means necessary to stay that way, including mass genocide?†-- Loner
The threat of retaliation is always a possibility when one stands up against a bully. Allowing a bully to reign only gives him the ability to do more damage and injure additional victims.
It’s what our forefathers had to grapple with as they dumped all that tea into the Boston harbor.
It’s what every judge has to contemplate every time he sentences a powerful mafia member to prison.
It’s what every law enforcement officer has to wrestle with (at one time or another) when he arrests any ruthless and violent criminal.
It’s what the people of Egypt had to deal with when they rose up against their own military and government.
Freedom is a very dangerous thing (holding on to it, that is). There are many evil people who are willing to try to take it away from us. And not all of them attempt to remove our freedom in obvious ways. Some attempt to accomplish this very subtlely and slowly over time in order to avoid detection.
Freedom’s enemies are not only confined to foreign terrorists and communist dictators. Our enemy is anyone or entity that attempts to eliminate it from our nation. This would also include all domestic enemies such as organized criminals, corrupt politicians and unethical corporate interests whether they be oil company owners or central bankers. Freedom is not free. It comes with a price attached. Maintaining our freedom is no exception.
Chess
Sadly, long before oil, or even coal, had any major economic implications (beneficial or otherwise) for the
human race, wars have been waged.
Even sadder, is the fact that they always will.
Megalomaniacs will always find a way to dupe the masses for the advancement of their own agendas.
And the masses will always find a way to rationalize their own complicity. God is on our side, the bible or koran
(or any other book) told us this is what we should do, you're ruining this, our way is the right way,
your ways are evil, we're good patriots, our freedom is true freedom while yours is not, etc... etc...
People don't kill for a concept or formula, because these can be checked or tested!
People don't kill for a theory, because theory's can be proven right or wrong!
But now a belief can neither be tested to be right or proven to be correct, so the only way to make sure your are right is kill everyone that does not believe what you do!
Of course, everyone believes they are right!
? :o
the only way you will ever be truly free is if you are the last living thing on earth. 8)
http://www.energeticforum.com/agriculture/9506-healing-fukushima-problem.html
Please folks, don't exagerate things, as even nobody in above interested really is.
So friends, to this E-cat: don't expect any "nuclear", not saying CNF device, cos it is simple not.
???
You should trust "theoncuttingedge".
The E-cat is nothing of "nuclear" proprieties.
Whats even more, such devices even if working properly, should be as "LEAR" described to be. "Nuclear" reactions for light particles reserved are, such devices as supposed E-cat, atomic energy can only yield.
I'm really astounded that, even "Nobel" scientists from all the world don't distinquish between.
Maybe of this, they know that only succesfull "LEAR"s reactors (dynamic atomic reactors, exactly saying) were built after I War in Germany.
Later they were used as engines in this silly saying, UFO's or antigravity crafts,
cos of an enormous tachyonen (neutrino, free gravitons) power.
I can You only say in great secrecy that, 1 engine of such Vril, Haunebu generation, had tachyonen power of millions of LHC's.
When don't trust me, please ask "mscoffman". He is very good in math and can easily to calculate it. To make it properly, You only take a mass of 50T for such vechicle, and to take in advance, that to operate properly, only 1 main engine was enough.
But till this ressearch will be done, i say only, that our small DRJ200 can also in true "LEAR" mode to be used. But in this fall, this will be much more dangerous, even more than forgotten "Fukushima" already was.
So we use them (the DRJ reactors) in limited power, water driven, fully ecology, low cost, nuclear mode.
You don't need to trust me but, You should spend time on Aviso work.
It is more ingenious and precious and far beyond XXI Century.
(Although we have also this technology on military level prepared).
But first we show You true, full power "LENR" rather, not as this childisch DRJ's. ;D ;D
Quote from: lumen on October 19, 2011, 09:25:36 AM
Chess,
I am totally with you on this one!
The Rossi device will create a huge boom in the job market as his device takes over EVERYTHING except for plastics , fertilizer and lubrication.
So they can still make a good living, they just need to sell a few of those extra homes on the lake they own.
Yes, there are many things made from crude oil that will make it still worth something. If they ever try to gouge us for the lubricants, we can always switch to synthetics as they last longer and do a much better job.
Regards,
Chess
The Universe will recycle itself down to nothing but light and neutrinos again and again, it will take trillions of years maybe even a google number of ages.
the Universe favors recycling, this is what you have to work with. no magical over unity, nothing left there specifically for you by your so called god, just recycling, that's it.
no over unity, just recycling.
just as the Universe, you will be recycled too. soul mind and body if you wish but you will be recycled. this is evident.
@Everybody:
We’re just 4 days away from the BIG test of the 1 megawatt unit. With the 28TH approaching, I can’t help but wonder who the secret U.S. partner is.
I would also like to know what Rossi meant when he said this:
“ I WANT TO ADD THAT, TO ANSWER TO THE FRAUDULENT STATEMENTS MADE FROM THE SNAKES PAID BY THE USUAL WELL KNOWN TO DISCREDIT AND BLACKMAIL US (YES, I REPEAT: BLACKMAIL US):†-- Andrea Rossi (October 9th, 2011 at 2:26 AM)
The part of the quote I highlighted in BOLD PRINT especially. I wonder what they were trying to blackmail him with.
Regards,
Chess
I thought I read somewhere that the US company was AmpEnergo.
http://ampenergo.com/
Anyone else hear this?
Quote from: chessnyt on October 24, 2011, 08:20:57 PM
@Everybody:
We’re just 4 days away from the BIG test of the 1 megawatt unit. With the 28TH approaching, I can’t help but wonder who the secret U.S. partner is.
I would also like to know what Rossi meant when he said this:
“ I WANT TO ADD THAT, TO ANSWER TO THE FRAUDULENT STATEMENTS MADE FROM THE SNAKES PAID BY THE USUAL WELL KNOWN TO DISCREDIT AND BLACKMAIL US (YES, I REPEAT: BLACKMAIL US):†-- Andrea Rossi (October 9th, 2011 at 2:26 AM)
The part of the quote I highlighted in BOLD PRINT especially. I wonder what they were trying to blackmail him with.
Regards,
Chess
you tell me what? I won't stand for this shit. you don't believe me , I have family in the CIA.
what is it you're afraid of?
you want truth then open your shit, what is it you want to know.
@Everybody:
The big test is tomorrow!!!! The test will either be validated by the secret U.S. customer (who will bring their own scientific experts to the test site to validate it) or it will not work and the customer will back out of the deal.
The system being offered by Andrea Rossi is capable of producing 1 mega watt of power. Just to give you an idea of how much power this is; it is enough to power over 800 residential houses and the LENR system is small enough to easily fit inside of any standard shipping container!
History in the making.
Regards,
Chess
The chances of this being sold in single 27kw modules is slim to to none.
Quote from: IotaYodi on October 27, 2011, 08:58:00 PM
The chances of this being sold in single 27kw modules is slim to to none.
@IotaYodi:
It's funny you should say that because he is gathering input from the public on designing his home version unit's external case. He is going to pay whoever comes up with the design he chooses. All his home version units are lacking is an external case.
His first unit is a 5kw home heating system. Just buy six of his home units and you'll have 30kw in your hands. The chances of buying as many units as you desire (20, 30, 60, 100) are really pretty good!
Here's a link to the article:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Cold_Fusion_E-Cat_Case_Design_Competition
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on October 27, 2011, 10:45:41 PM
What for somebody 6 units, please, when only one 5 Kw should 120 KwH of heat per day to give. And it is good enough 480 sqm daily to heat, 3-4 homes also.
Such as it is with our single DRJ200 7.5 Kw possible (close) already is.
@Arius:
So Rossi has competition already? This is GREAT news!!!! Competition removes the possibility of price gouging. If one of you sets your price too high, the other power unit manufacturer will get most of the business.
I'm not attached to Rossi in any manner at all so you have just made my day. So what does your 7.5kw unit sell for? How long might I use it before I have to have it serviced? Can I service it myself or do I have to use an authorized technician to do all of the service/maintenance? Where can I purchase the 7.5kw unit? Has your technology been verified by well respected independent scientists? If so, can you post all the data involved in the testing? Does your unit make steam/hot water or does it produce electricity? What are the dimensions of your units?
I'm sorry for the barrage of questions but I'm sure all of the people following this thread would be interested to know the answers to these questions. This sounds like very good news for consumers.
Best Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on October 28, 2011, 07:09:21 AM
Ok., i see You, as well others like "green people" from other planet thinking are.
So more clearly Friend.
True FE devices of any kind, will be to obtain not in K-mart, Leroy Merlin, Castorama or others of this kind (rather small, XIX century like iron shops).
They are not intended for brain washed, silly, cattle like (sorry cattle) "people".
Only for choosen ones first.
They will have to choose others and so on.
But copy of our device, You can freely obtain here: www.ooo-vtg.ru .
Although it is not fully OU (total EFF >100%), they certainly posses mechanical OU.
It means that, effective power of engine is smaller of heat power produced.
F.e.: our 11 Kw device really "consumes" 8.25 Kw mechanical input power,
but produces 17 Kw of heat.
In this fall it is 206%.
But the mechanical power produced through electricity is.
So of internal effectivity of electrical engine, total effectivity of reactor high is.
For older, IE1 Siemens engines with own 55% eff., You could get 116% total.
With modern IE3, IE4 class engines, You can get 130-140% correspondly.
But this new range of engines is 5-6 x higher in orice than older.
This makes 2 fold increase in reactor price.
Or even more for small power units.
And when You trust in Rossi claim, back off during the test, 500 m for security reasons.
Otherwise, You will be all green soon.
As Martian.
:P
Uh huh. And of course you power your home with this device and have a $0.00 electric bill, right? No? Didn't think so. Maybe if we buy your device and find out it does nothing we won't be cattle, eh?
@Arius:
In your reply, you referred me to another thread so I will use a legend to clearly identify who I am quoting below:
ARIUS = BOLD CAPITALIZED PRINT
DOCTOR NO = bold lowercase print
“ARE YOU SLEEPING OR DREAMING OF BLUE BALOU, FRIEND?â€
So I went to the thread you made reference to and I found it written in the same gibberish English (badly butchered English, that is) that you speak. I am deeply sorry, but I don’t speak gibberish. If you’re going to attempt to participate in an English written thread and reply in English, get some decent lessons first.
While trying to read through the opening thread posting you referred me to, I came upon “we invite for show, only peoples really interested in new technologies, no idiots, nor jews.â€
So the Jews are not allowed to go to your product demonstration? What kind of racists are you people?
“WE DON'T SELL ANYTHING, IN AMERICANS HAND ESPECIALLY, ONLY SELECTED, NS THINKING
PEOPLE EVENTUALLY.â€
I agree with you here. It would be extremely difficult for you to sell anything while standing in the hand of an American. He would have to be one strong man in order to be able to hold you up with one hand while you stand there selling things to people.
I don’t know what you were trying to say here with “ONLY SELECTED, NS THINKING PEOPLE EVENTUALLY.†NS? Does that stand for non-smoking? Need salsa? Never schooled? Nit-witted suckers?
“THEY ARE NOT INTENDED FOR BRAIN WASHED, SILLY, CATTLE LIKE (SORRY CATTLE) "PEOPLE".
ONLY FOR CHOOSEN ONES FIRST.â€
So you are chosen? Who chose you? What did they/it choose you for? Are you really claiming to be a member of a master race of people? What race would that be? Show me where you get your pedigree.
“ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT FULLY OU…â€
If it is NOT over unity, why are you even wasting my time?
So let me see...hmmmm. You have referred me to a product that is not over unity. It is being sold by supremacists (racists) who openly hate Jews and refuse to sell to anyone who lives on the entire American continent (every person living on the American continent is technically an American). What a marketing strategy (lmfao). ::)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on October 28, 2011, 08:58:34 PM
1. It's not my fault, that You had no time to read topic which is here for 3 years already, whats more, in 4 various threads.
2. To english: next year, it will be given more proper answer in polish lanquage, as we are used to give for thousend years already.
3. When is this times You don't understand that Jews are not welcome here,
i can only wish You to sleep. (The excuse can be only for Jews of NS thinking from Israel to be given, but only this, with friendly view to other nations).
4. NS means: national-sot view of matters, also clear prospects for own soil and nation.
5. Americans for me such scundrels as catholics are.
I prefer Jews against them.
6. Choosen: only this which understand clearly todays whats-going-on-the-world,
also, people from point 4.
You can say so, that i've been choosen, cos i was given this knowledge with birth.
Even well known Victor Schauberger needed more than half a life to precise it.
7. How low thinking You are is clearly to see, when i write that OOO firm VHG's
are not fully OU and You refer this to our too.
8. Marketing strategy? Money only? In this times more important things are, not only such as money or even human lifes, but it comes all our civilization in question.
9. Summary: You are completely dumb, and not only this.
You don't recognize simple facts, ignores them and whats more, against
facts trying to go.
It is simple stupidity.
That's why i prefer to discuss with Big-M, which as each Jew, eager for true knowledge is.
Jews how they are, epecially this bankers cliche, are, but nobody can say that
they are dumb or primitives like You or others as mentioned earlier.
And please stop showing me Your silness, cos it is under limits of law. :P
Ban this creep. Hate speech.
@Everyone:
1 MW E-Cat Cold Fusion Device Test Successful
On October 28, 2011, Andrea Rossi demonstrated his 1 megawatt E-Cat system to his first customer, who had engineers/scientists on hand to test/validate its performance. Due to a glitch, it provided 470 kW of continuous power for 5.5 hours during the self-sustained mode.
...and that's the game!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Here’s a link to the article:
http://pesn.com/2011/10/28/9501940_1_MW_E-Cat_Test_Successful/
Regards,
Chess
Slashdot.org gave this some coverage
http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/11/10/28/030244/1-mw-cold-fusion-plant-supposedly-to-come-online
@Chess, I immortalised the website you posted on my website http://www.stuffundertherug.com/
@Arius:
For a person who hates Jews, Americans and all Catholics, you sure do spend a lot of time trying to save us and “wake†us up. I for one do not listen to anyone who tries to resurrect the doctrine of Hitler. Hitler was exterminated for his mad views and obsessive hatred of the Jews. Anyone who tries to take his place will meet with the same fate.
@Everyone:
Rossi has made it to market just before the close of October. The customer is now satisfied that Rossi’s technology is for real and they validated it with their own scientific and engineering staff. His first customer has just completed their purchase of his first device sold to the AMERICANS ;D
Rossi is now unstoppable!!!!! Five hours in SELF SUSTAIN MODE BABYYYY!!!!! History has just been made as this is the most important discovery since the discovery of electricity! GET EXCITED PEOPLE!!!!!!
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on October 29, 2011, 10:58:39 AM
1. Adolf Hitler eventually comitted suicide, but i don't trust it really.
Same said my Grandpa, which was a prisoner of KL Buchenwald.
They had a technical possibility to fly arround the World, so why not?
2. Please let us know, how much of this miraculuos fuel of Nickel nano powder
had to be refilled after this happy 5.5 H?
Todays ordinary coal ovens can burn longer after 1 loading of coal, even to 72 H,
so Freund, go to circus better than. ;D
@Arius:
Hitler is gone and is no longer in power. Deny this if you wish but this is fact. You need to show more tolerance for people of different ethnic backgrounds. Hatred will ALWAYS lead to murder. That is why it is important to learn to live peaceably with others so that you will not waste your life trying to destroy the world but rather help make it a better place working beside others who may be different from you.
Coal pollutes the air we breath and will not burn for 6 months before more has to be introduced. Nickel is also more abundant in supply than coal as well. It is I who wishes you would awake from your slumber as climate change is for real.
Regards,
Chess
@Chessynt . To be honest , Rossi has given us little to be exited about at this stage . He claims to have sold the device to a customer who wishes to remain secret . In a vital test his device only outputs 50% of the claimed power . He may or may not have a working device , but yesterday seems to be the non-event of the year . I just hope he is a better engineer than he is a salesman . Somehow this did not feel like a world changing
event . Even if he is genuine , the whole scene seems to have been designed to give his critics a field day .
Quote from: neptune on October 29, 2011, 11:21:45 AM
@Chessynt . To be honest , Rossi has given us little to be exited about at this stage . He claims to have sold the device to a customer who wishes to remain secret . In a vital test his device only outputs 50% of the claimed power . He may or may not have a working device , but yesterday seems to be the non-event of the year . I just hope he is a better engineer than he is a salesman . Somehow this did not feel like a world changing
event . Even if he is genuine , the whole scene seems to have been designed to give his critics a field day .
@Neptune:
Well, his critics said they would have been satisfied that his technology was for real if he would have let it run longer in self sustain mode at his last testing event. He let it run longer and he even produced more significant energy output IN SELF-SUSTAIN MODE! 470kw is a serious and viable display of energy output by any scientific standards.
The customer is secret? They have a right to be. Maybe they don't want to risk retribution (economically blackballed or otherwise) for bringing something that easily has the potential to make the richest people in this country broke!
Regards,
Chess
greetings chessnyt & neptune (long time no see!)
this is a situation like the 'particle/wave' duality of light - there is truth in both your points of view, however incompatible they may appear!
a) if you follow the implications from criticisms of Rossi's claims for a new technology, then the only logical conclusion is that this has to be a scam
but there is no 'scam' logic here - this is not being played out in 'secluded' venues where a scammer can fool a sucker into parting with their money and move on without attracting too much attention and killing the market
neither is it the often-seen 'YOUTOOB' mentality of showing-off some 'impossible' achievement, either for glory or kicks, where there is no possibility for checking the validity of the presentation and/or insufficient data to enable people to replicate (obviously in this case Rossi is keeping some info as 'trade secret' from general release - but he is co-operating with some research facilities)
b) equally, from the other point of view, Rossi appears to be trying to 'run before he can walk' in that he's attempting to sell something which is not yet fully-reliable (for whatever reason) and before the science behind the new technology has been generally recognised and validated
now it may be that, due to the controversial nature of the claims for this new technology, research facilities are unable to get funding to investigate it by using the established channels of grant sources - and so it's possible that Rossi is having to provide some funding himself, hence needing to sell some product (& his house?) first
in all these demos, whilst i'm sure Rossi is pleased to get all the general publicity he can, his priority will be to convince any potential customers & scientists present at the demos of the veracity of his claims
the onus is on those people present to satisfy themselves that there is no 'trickery' - the alternative science 'journalism' representatives present will do the best they can to capture & disseminate solid information, but ultimately they are not the main focus of Rossi's efforts in these demos
Rossi's patents do not give sufficient info to enable a full working replication - so, if the technology is valid, then he is obviously keeping some details back as trade secrets
Therefore, Rossi's patents cannot prevent other companies from releasing a similar product if they can 'guess' the missing critical info themselves and make sufficient changes to the patented areas
there may not have been much 'mainstream' acknowledgement, in public, of Rossi's work - but you can bet that there will be a lot of very interested 'serious' players out there, trying to reverse-engineer what has been revealed so far, to prove for themselves if this is a valid technology and if so, to enable them to 'jump the gun'
interesting times - at the moment my money is still on Rossi !
np
http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
Quote from: nul-points on October 30, 2011, 06:55:17 AM
greetings chessnyt & neptune (long time no see!)
this is a situation like the 'particle/wave' duality of light - there is truth in both your points of view, however incompatible they may appear!
a) if you follow the implications from criticisms of Rossi's claims for a new technology, then the only logical conclusion is that this has to be a scam
but there is no 'scam' logic here - this is not being played out in 'secluded' venues where a scammer can fool a sucker into parting with their money and move on without attracting too much attention and killing the market
neither is it the often-seen 'YOUTOOB' mentality of showing-off some 'impossible' achievement, either for glory or kicks, where there is no possibility for checking the validity of the presentation and/or insufficient data to enable people to replicate (obviously in this case Rossi is keeping some info as 'trade secret' from general release - but he is co-operating with some research facilities)
b) equally, from the other point of view, Rossi appears to be trying to 'run before he can walk' in that he's attempting to sell something which is not yet fully-reliable (for whatever reason) and before the science behind the new technology has been generally recognised and validated
now it may be that, due to the controversial nature of the claims for this new technology, research facilities are unable to get funding to investigate it by using the established channels of grant sources - and so it's possible that Rossi is having to provide some funding himself, hence needing to sell some product (& his house?) first
in all these demos, whilst i'm sure Rossi is pleased to get all the general publicity he can, his priority will be to convince any potential customers & scientists present at the demos of the veracity of his claims
the onus is on those people present to satisfy themselves that there is no 'trickery' - the alternative science 'journalism' representatives present will do the best they can to capture & disseminate solid information, but ultimately they are not the main focus of Rossi's efforts in these demos
Rossi's patents do not give sufficient info to enable a full working replication - so, if the technology is valid, then he is obviously keeping some details back as trade secrets
Therefore, Rossi's patents cannot prevent other companies from releasing a similar product if they can 'guess' the missing critical info themselves and make sufficient changes to the patented areas
there may not have been much 'mainstream' acknowledgement, in public, of Rossi's work - but you can bet that there will be a lot of very interested 'serious' players out there, trying to reverse-engineer what has been revealed so far, to prove for themselves if this is a valid technology and if so, to enable them to 'jump the gun'
interesting times - at the moment my money is still on Rossi !
np
http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com (http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com)
Where is the Nobel prize?
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 30, 2011, 08:13:16 AM
Where is the Nobel prize?
LOL
Nobel Prizes are awarded for physics, chemistry, physiology or medicine, literature, peace and economic sciences
no mention of "new technology"
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 30, 2011, 08:13:16 AM
Where is the Nobel prize?
Wait for it.
He is still fighting the kingdom of giants.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on October 29, 2011, 07:13:10 AM
And i'm always asking myself, what for people are trying to do mess in heads of anothers?
Please see: only for living, fly cost and minimum personel, Rossi had to spent this year well >100.000 EUR.
This are clear datas for each surveillance service.
So he can not doing such shows for nothing.
And minimum time to have as self sustain mode proper to verify are weeks not hours needed.
Folks, sleep well with Your dreams.
;)
The demands of the skeptics never end as they continually try to keep Rossi jumping through their hoops. At one point the skeptics complained about the steam quality so he did a demonstration with a heat exchanger in which much of the energy would be lost due to efficiency losses (as no heat exchanger is 100% efficient). With the heat exchanger, he silenced the steam complainers and still proved energy gains despite having the deck stacked against him. Then there were the skeptics who wanted to see it run in self-sustain mode and so he demonstrated this as well. Then the skeptics claimed it didn't run in self-sustain mode long enough so he allowed it to run in self-sustain mode for 5.5 hours. Then the skeptics said it would have to run for months in self-sustain mode for them to be satisfied.
And so Rossi realizes that it will never end. The skeptics are going to keep adding to their demands on Rossi until 2020. Rossi now understands that they are only trying to stall the release of the technology by keeping him busy jumping through all of their hoops. That is why he finally gave up trying to satisfy all of the skeptics (if they are "genuine" skeptics in the first place without hidden agendas). So Rossi is now focused on delivering the goods to the public in which he has made a giant stride as of the 28th. He will not play their "perpetual demand" game with them any longer and this must really piss them off.
Regards,
Chess
If the device is real, Rossi is doing the right thing.
If he simply exposed a device that would make all fossil fuels obsolete, together with all home heating and automoblies, in addition to creating the downfall of various governments, he might very well end up with a bullet thru his head. Instead, he leaves enough 'meat' for the skeptics while working quietly with industrial customers - who can offer big $, unlike academics who offer nothing but more expensive demands.
If you think the above is implausible, I ask you to consider that the US is now executing various of its citizens as terrorists, without trial. They defend their secrets at Area 51 with signs that say 'deadly force may be authorized'. A highly placed whistleblower who exposed manipulation of silver markets met with a violent auto "accident", not too long ago. Eliot Spitzer just happened to get caught as "Client #9" before he attacked banks as AG in NY for subprime fraud.
And you can also read "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" and consider his stories about plane crashes that occured just after somebody turned down a usurious loan for their nation.
I just read an article at Forbes about the OCT 28 event and it seemed a bit biased by leaving out some critical information.
But then I suppose it's a good way to control and discredit.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2011/10/30/believing-in-cold-fusion-and-the-e-cat/
Rossi has given out a bit more information:
1) Fuel embodied energy = ~200 Wh/MWh (amount of energy needed to make enough fuel to produce 1 MWh of steam output). This is VERY low.
2) Fuel cost = 1EU (~1.40USD) / MWh of steam output.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=516&cpage=6#comment-106665
Burning 1 tonne of good coal will produce ~5 MWhs of steam plus ~2 tonne of CO2. Cost USD50 - 100 / tonne of coal = USD10 - 20 per MWh of steam plus carbon cost (at USD30 / tonne of CO2) of USD12 / MWh (tonne) of CO2 = USD22 - 32 / MWh of steam.
E-Cat fuel costs are ~USD1.40 / MWh of steam compared to coal fuel cost of USD22 - 32 / MWh of steam.
Coal, gas and conventional nuclear powered power stations are now relics of our industrial fire and brimstone based past. The Fat Lady has sung and Elvis has left the room.
I happen to know John Michell personally. He has written a book on the e-cat. He is a brilliant chemist and speaks many languages fluently. I trust his assesment of the e-cat. He says it works. PERIOD!
Quote from: a.king21 on October 30, 2011, 11:32:30 PM
I happen to know John Michell personally. He has written a book on the e-cat. He is a brilliant chemist and speaks many languages fluently. I trust his assesment of the e-cat. He says it works. PERIOD!
As a engineer, I have no doubt it worked. 479 kWs of heat per hour would be like putting 479 x 1 kW electric heaters in a room and leaving them on for 5.5 hours. It would get hot in there. Rossi had 2 heat exchangers with big fans connected to the steam output of the ECat to get rid of the heat and return the water to a liquid state with 2 circulating pumps to return the now cooled water back into the holding tank and then back to the reaction chambers.
During the 5.5 hours of sustained operation, the heaters of the reaction chambers were not powered by the onsite gen set. They were initially powered by the gen set for about 90 minutes to get the reaction chambers up to operational temperature. After that the gen set continued to run but only to supply power to the circulating pumps and the fans of the heat exchangers.
479 kWs per hour of steam / heat for 5.5 hours, with no input power to the reaction chambers is an amazing result. Here is a link to the published test results: http://db.tt/wu4OLbgk
Rossi has also revealed the customer has taken away the 20ft container with the ECat, has orders for more and is building more.
Here is a 1 hour video of the test in which you can see the 2 heat exchangers that turned the steam back into liquid water: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcQ82zmRJHY
This might be a good time to go short on coal, gas and nuclear stocks? The price of Nickel may well be going up.
I read where Deuterium, also called heavy hydrogen, may have been used instead of normal light hydrogen in the Rossi set-up. Deuterium is very expensive and requires considerable energy to produce.
Any thoughts on how much this would affect the cost of E-cat power generation if Deuterium was in fact Rossi's secret ingredient? I read where a canister of Deuterium was spotted at Rossi's lab during one of the tests and was quickly dismissed by Rossi as a back-up to quench any runaway problems which made no sense as a reason to have it there.
So what if Deuterium was the secret ingredient? Any on know how much hydrogen Rossi used for his 5.5 hours run?
Quote from: maw2432 on October 31, 2011, 06:29:47 AM
I read where Deuterium, also called heavy hydrogen, may have been used instead of normal light hydrogen in the Rossi set-up. Deuterium is very expensive and requires considerable energy to produce.
Any thoughts on how much this would affect the cost of E-cat power generation if Deuterium was in fact Rossi's secret ingredient? I read where a canister of Deuterium was spotted at Rossi's lab during one of the tests and was quickly dismissed by Rossi as a back-up to quench any runaway problems which made no sense as a reason to have it there.
So what if Deuterium was the secret ingredient? Any on know how much hydrogen Rossi used for his 5.5 hours run?
The amount of H used is stated in the report I linked.
http://db.tt/wu4OLbgk
The H tank's mass was:
13,604.5 g before the test started
13,602.8 g after the test.
--------
1.7 g of H was used to produce 2,635 kWhs of thermal energy.
Stated COP was 2,635:0.
Energy drawn from the gen set, during the 5.5 hours of the self sustaining run, was 66 kWh. The reactor's pre heat heaters were switched off during this time. The 66 kWhs of energy was used by the 2 circulating pumps and the 2 heat exchanger fans.
Why did the run stop at 18:00? Probably because the purchaser was satisfied with the ECat's performance and it was time for a beer?
Rossi has also stated the reactor's "Fuel" needs to be changed after 4,320 hours (6 months at 24 hours per day of operation). At a fuel cost of USD1.40 / MWh of heat, that would be a cost of 4,320 MWhs * USD1.40 = USD6,048 or USD12,096 to produce 8,640 MWhs of steam / heat per year (assuming a 1 MW reactor running 24/7/365). With a Sterling Engine 50% heat to electricity conversion efficiency that is 4,320 MWhs of electricity per year for a fuel cost of USD12,096 = USD0.0028 / AckWh as per fuel cost.
That price is a electricity generation game changer world wide, no matter how the Rossi ECat blue box works.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on October 31, 2011, 11:08:02 AM
I state only that, soon here will be a new star of physics born.
It will be The-Big-M, which after reading my century old papers will tell
You not only why this "E-cat" nuclear fake is, but also only our device true
CNF (HR) is.
;D
The energy gain is indeed from some nuclear interaction since there is no chemical reaction that would produce the energy without much more fuel.
There are also radioactive emissions produced that are mostly contained by using the correct shielding and absorbing elements for the type of radiation emitted.
To continually insist that this is not cold fusion is to show you do not understand and also reduces the possibly that you could have a working device. So unless you have something better to show working, you should more wisely use your time building something that works and can be shown working because the time for talk is over!
How much Nickle is consumed per MWh? And how much Copper is produced? This will only effect prices (by natural demand/supply if such existed in metals) when the quantities were really large.
Nickle is used for circulation coins I believe. Silver's price was long locked due to it being used in decent grades in coins. If the price would rise, people would bring coin money and get more paper money in return. With Nickle, unless thousands of tons are needed, I expect this to limit Nickle prices until national banks fase out such coins.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 01, 2011, 11:24:32 AM
Simply say, it is even more dangerous as atomic power station are.
Someone has really much silly to be, to try to put this device in someones hands.
Trust me. 8)
First you say it don't work, now you say it is very dangerous because it works!
Well, scare tactics no longer work in the US. People are wise to this crap and now say "bring it".
So you should probably go hide someplace else.
Thanks for the warning.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 01, 2011, 02:07:23 PM
Please read once more all my writings about.
I'm not stating that it is not working at all, but:
1. It is nothing of nuclear origin, only this as well even by coal burning, small power, nuclear reactions take place on eV level.
2. Absolutely it is nothing of CNF reaction, cos You all can not even dream about.
3. It is no fall for true selfpropelling, only till fuel change time eventually.
4. The Foccardi-Rossi team has no knowledge, as well swedish "Nobel" scientists, about anything bound with "nuke".
4. It is only plausible to use it under plausible, industrial conditions, same as by dynamite production.
5. It is extremely dangerous, cos real probability of serious accident is even higher than in fall of Space Shuttle (already abandoned).
6. Something forgotten? :P
What is the chemical reaction that you suggest that can produce over 1000/1 energy output over any known chemical and also produce serious radiation that must be shielded. All that recent energy 470,000 watt/hours generated per hour for 5.5 hours using just 1.7 grams of hydrogen.
Still the reaction was able to continue for months at this rate. Chemical? Not even close! Pleas give a SINGLE example of chemical reaction that could produce similar results! Or even 1/100 the energy!
It cannot exist! Move on!
Quote from: Cloxxki on November 01, 2011, 10:11:42 AM
How much Nickle is consumed per MWh? And how much Copper is produced? This will only effect prices (by natural demand/supply if such existed in metals) when the quantities were really large.
Rossi has not yet disclosed that but he has said the "fuel" for a 1 MW E-Cat costs EUR1 (USD1.40) and will last for 6 months of 24 hour a day operation. This would suggest the mass of the "Fuel" used is VERY low.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 01, 2011, 04:20:37 PM
The real energy source is the deuterium. It is why this proces goes so rapidly.
But even childs in Poland in early 70-ies knew that, lead is of no usefulness against
G radiation.
Only graphite can acumulate it properly.
But maybe in Italy or America it is today another catched?
Through empty minds, maybe? ;D
I believe you could be correct except for two points.
1: No one said that deuterium was used in the process.
2: I believe in America, Boron is used as the element to convert low speed neutrons into lower energy radiation and heat.
But it could be true that empty minds are used also, just not in America.
There is no detectable radiation when the E-Cat is running.
USD70 of fuel will power the E-Cat reactors for 12 months and produce 8,322 MWhs of heat at a plant load factor of 95%. Assuming a 40% heat to Ac kW conversion efficiency that is ~3,328,000 Ac kWhs of energy deliver per year for a fuel cost of USD70.
At 10,000 Ac kWhs per year for a average home, that is enough electricity to power around 330 homes. Fuel cost per home is then ~USD0.21 per year. If you divided the capital cost of say USD2 million across the 330 homes, the capital cost to each home would be ~USD6,000. Adding that to the cost of a new home is just pocket change.
Here are more information about the 1 MW E-Cat test.
http://pesn.com/2011/11/02/9501943_Rossis_E-Cat_Victory_on_Cold_Fusion_Emergence_Day--E-Day/
It seems the customer's test engineer was a Nato Colonel, very experienced in thermal and steam systems, the E-Cat plant will be used to provide heat for camps in the field and this apparently was why self sustained operation with no power input was important to this customer.
Rossi has also stated the tested and accepted E-Cat has "left the building" and was taken away by the satisfied customer. He also has stated the next E-Cat is being built, the customer is US and will not operate in "Quite" mode.
This is very real. There is no scam. We are witnesses to history in the making, due to one burnt finger tip.
Quote from: Cloxxki on November 01, 2011, 10:11:42 AM
How much Nickle is consumed per MWh? And how much Copper is produced? This will only effect prices (by natural demand/supply if such existed in metals) when the quantities were really large.
Nickle is used for circulation coins I believe. Silver's price was long locked due to it being used in decent grades in coins. If the price would rise, people would bring coin money and get more paper money in return. With Nickle, unless thousands of tons are needed, I expect this to limit Nickle prices until national banks fase out such coins.
Interesting, Nickel theft is now happening.
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/tag/nickel-theft/
Spend 15 minutes watching the 3 lead off videos on this web site.
http://www.buildecat.com/
The people talking are scientists. They have measured nuclear radiation coming from their test of an earlier E-Cat reactor. Note the scientists who says he secretly tested the area and the not working E-Cat reactor for radiation BEFORE it was switched on. He found nothing. But once it was working background Gamma radiation increased about 50%. Other scientists have detected other nuclear radiation from working E-Cat reactors as well.
More and more info is coming to light. Like these guys measured 24 kW output from 1 E-Cat reactor. The 1 MW E-Cat has over a hundred reactors. That means the self sustaining demo only resulted in each reactor running at about 4 kWs output each. So is the potential output of the 1 MW reactor really more like 2.5 MWs?
What si does mean is that a domestic home would only need 1 of the E-Cat reactors to generate all the energy needed. Here is a video of the testing of 1 of the reactors used in the large 1 MW E-Cat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUQXETK3iqc&feature=player_embedded
Enjoy watching the future.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 02, 2011, 07:33:26 AM
50% over background is nothing by that power.
Please see, our CNFHR DRJ200 which has much less heat energy output, produces
200% over normal niveau.
And only thanks this, that most energy produced is through tachyons dispersed,
not neutrons.
When Rossi device was nuclear type, it should be 1.000 times (millions%) over background.
Capisci tutto signore? ::)
Is it absolutely required for a previously unknown nuclear related technology, with unknown catalysts, to product huge amounts of radiation, PER SE?
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 02, 2011, 08:36:57 AM
Of course, You can not hide it anywhere as proposed through Foccardi/Rossi team.
Such tales even kids in Poland in early 70's were not supposed to believe.
The only way to avoid this (tales as well radiation) is, to expel energy produced through means of tachyons.
They are bio-friendly.
But this water only can.I
So it is biological nuclear fusion, cos really, this goes in our body cells.
Ask Victor Schauberger about.
He knew this 90 y. ago. :o
So a totally new device discovered 90 years ago has been operating and fully refined and on the market for 90 years? Why have I not heard anything about this?
It obviously must be working very well by now!
No?
Everyone must have seen the article on FOX NEWS by now!
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/11/02/andrea-rossi-italian-cold-fusion-plant/
Now there is another new batch of idiots starting all over again with the same remarks.
Quote from: lumen on November 02, 2011, 05:00:14 PM
Everyone must have seen the article on FOX NEWS by now!
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/11/02/andrea-rossi-italian-cold-fusion-plant/
Now there is another new batch of idiots starting all over again with the same remarks.
The E-Cat is just about to turn the world on its end!!! It's very close to reaching critical mass.
It also appears that the United States Navy is the secret customer of Rossi's first power plant. This would make sense due to the E-Cat's military viability and technological superiority over all Naval capabilities of any military to date. This would also allow the Navy to dock their ships (bring them into ports) even if the port is not capable of containing or responding to a conventional nuclear emergency (e.g. North Coronado Island).
This would also explain all of the secrecy before and after the purchase. The world as we know is about to change.
Regards,
Chess
P.S. Pay no attention to the disinformation individual. He is outgunned by our Navy both technologically and militarily ;)
Quote from: chessnyt on November 02, 2011, 07:42:11 PM
The E-Cat is just about to turn the world on its end!!! It's very close to reaching critical mass.
It also appears that the United States Navy is the secret customer of Rossi's first power plant. This would make sense due to the E-Cat's military viability and technological superiority over all Naval capabilities of any military to date. This would also allow the Navy to dock their ships (bring them into ports) even if the port is not capable of containing or responding to a conventional nuclear emergency (e.g. North Coronado Island).
This would also explain all of the secrecy before and after the purchase. The world as we know is about to change.
Regards,
Chess
P.S. Pay no attention to the disinformation individual. He is outgunned by our Navy both technologically and militarily ;)
My step father was telling me today that he just bought 20k into a company that mines coal...... i replied "so... now wouldn't be a good time to tell you that they have just proven cold fusion?" haha... he was so pissed off at me... needless to say he didn't believe anything i had to say, to which I replied "I don't expect you to believe me, but I do get to have "I told you so" rights"
Quote from: chessnyt on November 02, 2011, 07:42:11 PM
[...]
It also appears that the United States Navy is the secret customer
[...]
Regards,
Chess
let's hope that their ships aren't as leaky as their 'secrets' !! ;)
Quote from: Poit on November 03, 2011, 12:16:08 AM
My step father was telling me today that he just bought 20k into a company that mines coal...... i replied "so... now wouldn't be a good time to tell you that they have just proven cold fusion?" haha... he was so pissed off at me... needless to say he didn't believe anything i had to say, to which I replied "I don't expect you to believe me, but I do get to have "I told you so" rights"
@Poit:
Great story ;D Scenarios such as yours are going to repeat themselves over and over again as people start to realize the implications of such a breakthrough.
I dumped any stocks in my portfolio that was even remotely related to energy. Others will not be so fortunate as they will end up stuck with plunging shares costing them a fortune (e.g. your stepfather). The good news is, losing lots of money tends to wake people up ;)
Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
Rossi just sold his second 1Megawatt power plant to another customer and is now taking orders from other commercial interests :o The Genie is out of its bottle. Good luck trying to get it back in.
What excellent news. This will put paid to the empty blatherings of our trolls. They've held centre stage for way too long. Nothing defeats the classical argument better than this kind of proof. Good news indeed.
Rosemary
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 03, 2011, 10:49:32 PM
Do You think Rose, that AEC and CIA will have time to check the Rossi "reactor"? >:(
lol. Truth be known they've probably got their own artifact hidden in their vaults lest the public learn of this technology.
The simple fact is - I think - that we've all got rather tired of waiting for academic recognition. But how wonderful is all this news. It's just such an eloquent way of defeating those tedious arguments that are richly funded by our grid and energy monopolists.
Just wonderful. It's tempted me back here to these forums. I see I'm a latecomer to this news.
Kindest regards Arius. I think we've got some very good reason to remain hopeful.
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 03, 2011, 10:15:52 PM
What excellent news.
Rosemary
Couldn't agree more :)
Time to start production and prove that it works by practice than fail by non practical blah blah....Go man Go...Get those production lines going!!!
Regards,
Paul
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 03, 2011, 11:09:58 PM
I would rather advise You, to relay on own inventions, than on Rossi's reactor. ???
@Arius A. Nowak
What is your purpose on this thread?
I see a lot of negative comments regarding this energy device, is it your opinion or fact based experience that device has no purpose in this world compared to the existing infrastructure of oil and nuclear electricity?
If Rossi is actually selling his technology based on merit then where is your credentials?
Regards,
Paul
Quote from: Goat on November 03, 2011, 11:17:29 PM
@Arius A. Nowak
What is your purpose on this thread?
I see a lot of negative comments regarding this energy device, is it your opinion or fact based experience that device has no purpose in this world compared to the existing infrastructure of oil and nuclear electricity?
If Rossi is actually selling his technology based on merit then where is your credentials?
Regards,
Paul
Clearly I'm missing something. As I understand it - and as you well explain it Paul, the fact is that these devices are being sold as workable units. I'm reasonably certain that Arius knows that one cannot actually sell a device that does not work. The buying public are surely protected under the consumer acts - all over the place. Therefore, if and when Arius commends the fact that it's being purchased as a working unit - my assumption is also that he knows that it works. So to deny the fact in the full knowledge of the evidence would be somewhat asinine. I'm sure Arius is not that stupid. Therefore I see no reason to think that he's actually being sarcastic. But my history of sussing out the motives of our forum contributors has not been all that it should be. lol
Kindest again,
R
;D
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 03, 2011, 11:32:57 PM
The only protection against this device is an underground shelter, or to stay
away 500 m. The consumer rights and acts will be not very helpful after disorder.
I seem to remember getting similar advice about our own technology. Where the results could not be denied there was a rather feeble attempt to warn the public against it's potential hazards. Surely you could do better? That argument is rather old.
Bear in mind that all conventional applications of simple electric energy - can always be life threatening. We're supposed to exercise a certain amount of caution. And, I think, we already manage that. Fairly well. Frankly I think it's more hazardous to use a pedestrian crossing to cross a road in busy traffic than to apply these technologies. And I'm reasonably certain that our statisticians would endorse that fact.
Anyway. I personally, am delighted. Always a pleasure to learn of these courageous efforts to shake off the yoke of those mainstream assumptions.
Kindest again,
Rosemary
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 03, 2011, 11:22:42 PM
I write this of warning.
This what he makes can not even compared to dynamite be.
It is even worse, as this pre-dynamite era, nitro, unstable source.
It is live bomb. :o
Oh Please...
Have you seen and tested the device as other scientists have?
How are you basing your facts?
Not very scientific of you.
Unless you were there to see it I would suggest toning down your rhetoric.
Regards,
Paul
where is the proof of radiation from E-Cat, I want to see proof, not hear say.
Your status on this topic is about to die and prune up. you know nothing about Nickel nor was your belief in Nickel any reason to be concerned.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 03, 2011, 09:08:25 PM
Disguesting. ::)
And what says AEC about? (AEC: Atomic Energy Comission) :-X
Why would you bring up the Atomic Energy Commission? I thought you said it wasn't an atomic reaction?
You stated it was only a chemical reaction here:
"
But it is in no fall for atomic or nuclear energy. It is chemical reaction and needs only more ecological fuel without burning." -- Arius A. Nowak (10-30-2011)
Let me get this straight... I get censored for being a healthy sceptic and this clown "Arius A. Nowak" is still ranting and raving?
The hypocrisy is too much to handle!
Quote from: Poit on November 05, 2011, 11:15:12 AM
Let me get this straight... I get censored for being a healthy sceptic and this clown "Arius A. Nowak" is still ranting and raving?
The hypocrisy is too much to handle!
I’ve never seen anyone get away with making anti-Semitic remarks against Jews and simply be allowed to continue spewing his hatred towards other religious groups such as Catholics. Here’s the proof:
“
3. When is this times You don't understand that Jews are not welcome here,
i can only wish You to sleep. (The excuse can be only for Jews of NS thinking from Israel to be given, but only this, with friendly view to other nations).
4. NS means: national-sot view of matters, also clear prospects for own soil and nation.
5. Americans for me such scundrels as catholics are.
I prefer Jews against them.
6. Choosen: only this which understand clearly todays whats-going-on-the-world,
also, people from point 4.
You can say so, that i've been choosen, cos i was given this knowledge with birth.
Even well known Victor Schauberger needed more than half a life to precise it.†-- Arius Nowak (October 29, 2011, 02:58:34 AM)
There is an obvious supremacist overtone as he really believes he is a member of a master race of people (lol).
Then when I use his own words against him, he calls me crazy yet they are his lies that he is caught in. He is obviously a disinformation agent and my guess is his motive stems from his own panic deriving from his own so called “cold fusion†research. He claims that his device is 4-5 years away from completion and Rossi’s device has already entered the market. He is obviously upset and distraught over these facts as Rossi has beat him by at least 4 years and he doesn't enjoy entertaining the notion that he might have competition (that's assuming he even has ANYTHING in reality. This is a very huge assumption.)
“
But there are some 4-5 years ahead, till all such new achievements find they way
between people. †â€" Arius Nowak (October 30, 2011, 02:04:09 PM)
Why is Arius getting away with the content in his postings? Could it be that staff here shares his views?
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 05, 2011, 01:54:03 PM
I’ve never seen anyone get away with making anti-Semitic remarks against Jews and simply be allowed to continue spewing his hatred towards other religious groups such as Catholics. Here’s the proof:
“3. When is this times You don't understand that Jews are not welcome here,
i can only wish You to sleep. (The excuse can be only for Jews of NS thinking from Israel to be given, but only this, with friendly view to other nations).
4. NS means: national-sot view of matters, also clear prospects for own soil and nation.
5. Americans for me such scundrels as catholics are.
I prefer Jews against them.
6. Choosen: only this which understand clearly todays whats-going-on-the-world,
also, people from point 4.
You can say so, that i've been choosen, cos i was given this knowledge with birth.
Even well known Victor Schauberger needed more than half a life to precise it.†-- Arius Nowak (October 29, 2011, 02:58:34 AM)
There is an obvious supremacist overtone as he really believes he is a member of a master race of people (lol).
Then when I use his own words against him, he calls me crazy yet they are his lies that he is caught in. He is obviously a disinformation agent and my guess is his motive stems from his own panic deriving from his own so called “cold fusion†research. He claims that his device is 4-5 years away from completion and Rossi’s device has already entered the market. He is obviously upset and distraught over these facts as Rossi has beat him by at least 4 years and he doesn't enjoy entertaining the notion that he might have competition (that's assuming he even has ANYTHING in reality. This is a very huge assumption.)
“But there are some 4-5 years ahead, till all such new achievements find they way
between people. †â€" Arius Nowak (October 30, 2011, 02:04:09 PM)
Why is Arius getting away with the content in his postings? Could it be that staff here shares his views?
Regards,
Chess
What is equally interesting is the complete silence (lack of any participation in this thread) by this forum's moderator(s). I wonder why this is so? After all, this is obviously over unity achieved and being sold. You would think it would become a top "news" item. Go figure; over unity on a site devoted to over unity which is also named overunity.com ::)
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 05, 2011, 03:09:42 PM
And please don't forget that, that were German Aryans which put Your fat,
dumb-o-mericans assets on the Moon, with a help of Jewish money. ???
I am just curious, Arius. Do you have blonde hair and blue eyes?
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 05, 2011, 03:17:59 PM
YES! :P
If we Americans are so dumb, then why is it that we have an American military base in your country but you don’t have a German military base in the United States?
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 05, 2011, 03:23:45 PM
Not for long... ???
Oh really? It's been over...say...65 years now since we've had an AMERICAN base there with NO German base in the United States. When do you plan on removing our base?
I assume in March "when the riots start" :P (his answer from other thread). Still it's interesting, but I have the feeling you'll need to pull out each piece of information with pincers out of his nose. Maybe only a trick to sell his drj200 invention I suppose?
@Arius: you seem to have an idea of the future. Why not write a small article or start a new topic about it in this forum, so all the information is put together? Currently your apocalypse-hints are spread over lots of posts and some readers will not understand what it has to do with the current situation. Therefore it would be nice if you could add more detail and context to it.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 05, 2011, 03:49:15 PM
As ayou see, i know Your questions before You state them, so i can answer them in real time. :'(
Who is the leader of the new Nazi movement you are involved in?
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 05, 2011, 03:54:38 PM
Isn't this clear by my nick? ::)
Like I stated earlier; I'm sorry. I don't speak gibberish. Kindly post the name of your leader unless you are ashamed to say so.
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 05, 2011, 04:28:45 PM
www.google.com/m?hl=pl&gl=pl&client=ms-android-zte&source=android-launcher-widget&q=arius+adolf+nowak
"A" stays for Adolf.
Maybe "B" for Benito was better as original italian "fascio"-batch, and this
more proper, of country internal affairs bound.
But Adolf is word the Jews hate most. :o
Adolf Hitler is dead. So are you saying that you are the new leader of the fallen Nazi Party?
Quote from: Arius A. Nowak on November 05, 2011, 04:52:22 PM
You are dull and boring already. >:(
Why? Is it because I am not afraid of Nazis? (and I did notice your LONG silence before you answered my question as to who your new leader is. You are ashamed to state his name as you should be.)
@Chess, I don't know if he has been deleting his own posts or an admin has, but either way, I would suggest to not argue with him.. you are giving him exactly what he wants.... just ignore him.
Quote from: Poit on November 05, 2011, 06:58:39 PM
@Chess, I don't know if he has been deleting his own posts or an admin has, but either way, I would suggest to not argue with him.. you are giving him exactly what he wants.... just ignore him.
@Poit:
You're right. I should have ignored him.
@Everybody:
Andrea Rossi and his E-Cat technology appear to be gaining traction in the mainstream media. In addition to FOX, there are others starting to pick up the ball…
“The number of media organisations dipping toes into the eCat story continues to grow. From Fox to MSNBC and the UK’s Daily Mail to Wired UK, Forbes and more.†â€" LINK http://ecatnews.com/
Regards,
Chess
What Rossi has demonstrated is not new, Ni-H LENR reactions have been known about since the early 90's.
Cold Fusion â€" The history of research in Italy:
http://www.sede.enea.it/com/ingl/New_ingl/publications/pdf/Cold_Fusion_Italy.pdf
1994 peer reviewed Ni-H paper showing the reaction produced 3 times more energy than could be explained by a chemical reaction:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Focardi-AnomalousHeatNi-H-NuovoCimento.pdf
1998 paper which also showed Ni-H LENR heat generation for 289 days:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf
In Cold fusion â€" The history of research in Italy, the researchers add that they observed events of nuclear origins:
QuoteDuring the experiments, which altogether lasted for about 15 years, many phenomena witnessing nuclear reactions inside Ni samples in H atmosphere were observed. While it was producing energy, the cell which produced 900 MJ emitted neutrons for some days ... equal to 1000 times the neutron flux due to cosmic radiation. ... Other events, whose existence can only be due to nuclear reactions, were observed at the end of the experiments ... We observed in remarkable quantity Cu and Zn (with atomic number greater than Ni), F, Na, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Cl, K, Ca, Mn, Cr, Fe (Fig. 3).
All that Rossi has done is to raise the public visibility of the already known Ni-H LENR reaction and to make a commercial device that produces enough heat energy to be very useful.
There is however a fraud and / or scam going on here here, that has and is being created by those who attempt to discredit Rossi for their own reasons but in trying to do so they also need to discredit all the other Ni-H researchers and their published results.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 06, 2011, 08:15:12 PM
What Rossi has demonstrated is not new, Ni-H LENR reactions have been known about since the early 90's.
Cold Fusion â€" The history of research in Italy:
http://www.sede.enea.it/com/ingl/New_ingl/publications/pdf/Cold_Fusion_Italy.pdf
1994 peer reviewed Ni-H paper showing the reaction produced 3 times more energy than could be explained by a chemical reaction:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Focardi-AnomalousHeatNi-H-NuovoCimento.pdf
1998 paper which also showed Ni-H LENR heat generation for 289 days:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf
In Cold fusion â€" The history of research in Italy, the researchers add that they observed events of nuclear origins:
All that Rossi has done is to raise the public visibility of the already known Ni-H LENR reaction and to make a commercial device that produces enough heat energy to be very useful.
There is however a fraud and / or scam going on here here, that has and is being created by those who attempt to discredit Rossi for their own reasons but in trying to do so they also need to discredit all the other Ni-H researchers and their published results.
YES! Very true! As you stated, LENR has been around for quite some time now and is nothing new. Right again you are about Rossi selling a device that uses the technology (LENR) to clearly show what others have known all along.
The only thing you left out was the fact that ALL prior published results of LENR (that showed excess heat) admittedly stated that researchers could not do so consistently (4 out of 10 experiments, some even less). This would explain why no other scientist(s) are anywhere near the stage of releasing their findings via a commercially marketed product.
So what is different between Rossi's LENR process and his predecessors' LENR process is that Rossi is able to get a positive result (excess heat) every time (100% of the time).
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 06, 2011, 08:30:08 PM
The only thing you left out was the fact that ALL prior published results of LENR (that showed excess heat) admittedly stated that researchers could not do so consistently (4 out of 10 experiments, some even less). This would explain why no other scientist(s) are anywhere near the stage of releasing their findings via a commercially marketed product.
The 1998 paper showed they had a sustained long term Ni-H reaction that lasted for 289 days. Ni-H seems to be much more reliable than other LENR reactions and from my research of the available data was always reliable. Probably why Rossi decided to build his E-Cat based on Ni-H LENR reactions.
Miley is also reporting a Ni-H LENR system with 300 watts sustained output. Results to be published soon.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 06, 2011, 08:42:15 PM
The 1998 paper showed they had a sustained long term Ni-H reaction that lasted for 289 days. Ni-H seems to be much more reliable than other LENR reactions and from my research of the available data was always reliable. Probably why Rossi decided to build his E-Cat based on Ni-H LENR reactions.
Miley is also reporting a Ni-H LENR system with 300 watts sustained output. Results to be published soon.
Now I wouldn’t go so far as to say that he (Rossi) has perfected the technology but I would definitely go on the record to state that he has significantly improved upon it.
If the researcher you have highlighted for a reaction that has lasted 289 days is for real, I can not help but wonder why he has not either:
A. Developed a marketable device based on his experiment's protocol.
or
B. Invited independent renowned scientists to confirm/verify his results.
Whatever the case may be, it appears that he still has time to compete commercially with Rossi if he indeed has achieved what is claimed. I would love to see competition arise out of this technology in the market place. I will keep an eye out for other devices that are commercially available that rival that of Rossi's.
Regards,
Chess
Rossi's patent application:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=84vwAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=rossi%20nickel%20hydrogen&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quote from: chessnyt on November 06, 2011, 09:01:02 PMWhatever the case may be, it appears that he still has time to compete commercially with Rossi if he indeed has achieved what is claimed.
The lead author in the 1998 paper, FOCARDI, has worked with Rossi for quite some time now.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 06, 2011, 10:01:21 PM
The lead author in the 1998 paper, FOCARDI, has worked with Rossi for quite some time now.
I was not aware of the 1998 paper but I do recall reading where Focardi worked extensively with Rossi in the past. I believe you about the '98 paper.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 06, 2011, 10:33:35 PM
I was not aware of the 1998 paper but I do recall reading where Focardi worked extensively with Rossi in the past. I believe you about the '98 paper.
1994 peer review paper here (Forcardi lead author):
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Focardi-AnomalousHeatNi-H-NuovoCimento.pdf
1998 paper here (Forcardi lead author):
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf
2008 History of Cold Fusion in Italy report here:
http://www.sede.enea.it/com/ingl/New_ingl/publications/pdf/Cold_Fusion_Italy.pdf
This ties it all together:
http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=61
Dr. Focardi opened the door and Dr. Rossi made it a commercial product. They are a team.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 06, 2011, 10:49:38 PM
1994 peer review paper here (Forcardi lead author):
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Focardi-AnomalousHeatNi-H-NuovoCimento.pdf
1998 paper here (Forcardi lead author):
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf
2008 History of Cold Fusion in Italy report here:
http://www.sede.enea.it/com/ingl/New_ingl/publications/pdf/Cold_Fusion_Italy.pdf
This ties it all together:
http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=61
Dr. Focardi opened the door and Dr. Rossi made it a commercial product. They are a team.
Thank you for presenting this information in this thread for everyone to review. I am currently (in between replies to you) still reading the .PDF November 1998 paper you brought to my attention (which is a 10 page paper).
Best Regards,
Chess
In the 1998 paper I liked how they increased the applied power, once the cell was shut down after 289 days of continuous operation, so as to match the same output temperature they measured with the cell in operation.
QuoteBefore the shut-down, this cell was working with an input power of 94.3 W and the
sample temperature TPt of 429.7 K above T0. Moreover as a further proof of an extra
power in the nickel rod we performed the following measurement: after the shut-down
the same working temperature was obtained by supplying 166.3W.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 06, 2011, 11:06:18 PM
In the 1998 paper I liked how they increased the applied power, once the cell was shut down after 289 days of continuous operation, so as to match the same output temperature they measured with the cell in operation.
They documented energy gains of 600 and 900mj (respectively) which is quite impressive (as this was a two cell test).
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 06, 2011, 11:45:35 PM
They documented energy gains of 600 and 900mj (respectively) which is quite impressive (as this was a two cell test)
This was what Focardi achieved in 1998. Now 13 years later and after working with Rossi since 2004, I think I read, together they have delivered commercial ready LENR and LENR that can run with NO applied power for a infinite COP.
I'm so very glad to be alive to see this happen as now I know my children and their children's children will live in a much better world than I did. They will look back and thank Focardi and Rossi for what they did in the early years of the 21st century.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 06, 2011, 11:55:06 PM
This was what Focardi achieved in 1998. Now 13 years later and after working with Rossi since 2004, I think I read, together they have delivered commercial ready LENR and LENR that can run with NO applied power for a infinite COP.
I'm so very glad to be alive to see this happen as now I know my children and their children's children will live in a much better world than I did. They will look back and thank Focardi and Rossi for what they did in the early years of the 21st century.
Indeed, energy technology has just turned a corner and we are witnessing a discovery which rivals that of the discovery of electricity. This is what we have all been waiting for.
Another remarkable feat is how Rossi decided not to sell the technology so it could be shelved by the energy cartels.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 07, 2011, 12:07:25 AM
Indeed, energy technology has just turned a corner and we are witnesses a discovery which rivals that of the discovery of electricity. This is what we have all been waiting for.
Another remarkable feat is how Rossi decided not to sell the technology so it could be shelved by the energy cartels
Indeed. Rossi is very smart and played the fool and scammer so as to keep below the radar, while his friend Focardi kept quite. I sure Rossi learned a lot from the abuse that Focardi probably got hit with when he released his findings in 1998. The E-Cat much be sweet justice for Focardi. What is that old Italian saying? Oh yes. "Revenge is a dish best served Cold".
Here is a nice photo of Focardi and Rossi. From the look on their faces, well a photo tells a million words, especially this one: http://www.foianoinpiazza.it/news/rossofocardi.jpg
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 07, 2011, 12:24:52 AM
Indeed. Rossi is very smart and played the fool and scammer so as to keep below the radar, while his friend Focardi kept quite. I sure Rossi learned a lot from the abuse that Focardi probably got hit with when he released his findings in 1998. The E-Cat much be sweet justice for Focardi. What is that old Italian saying? Oh yes. "Revenge is a dish best served Cold".
Here is a nice photo of Focardi and Rossi. From the look on their faces, well a photo tells a million words, especially this one: http://www.foianoinpiazza.it/news/rossofocardi.jpg
They both pulled this off after being completely underestimated by the energy cartels. How could the energy monopolists have known that Rossi would enter the market place so prematurely? They couldn't have foreseen that Rossi would sell his own house in order to keep his first contractual agreement/deal with his first customer. And now with the sale of two separate 1mw units to his credit, he can afford to expand his production with each new sale. He doesn't even need the help of a bank (in which the monopolists have control over).
I also buy into the idea that Rossi and his colleagues outsmarted the monopolists.
Regards,
Chess
Hi Chess,
Click on this link and see where it takes you:
http://www.e-cat.com :o
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 07, 2011, 12:58:56 AM
Hi Chess,
Click on this link and see where it takes you:
http://www.e-cat.com :o
It takes you to Google? That's very strange...
Quote from: chessnyt on November 07, 2011, 01:07:39 AM
It takes you to Google? That's very strange...
Goes to Google Green Energy to be more precise. The Whois registerer has gone to some lengths to hide their identity.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 07, 2011, 01:09:46 AM
Goes to Google Green Energy to be more precise. The Whois registerer has gone to some lengths to hide their identity.
Incredible! What a very suspicious redirect to Google Green Energy. How did you stumble upon this?
Quote from: chessnyt on November 07, 2011, 01:12:11 AM
Incredible! What a very suspicious redirect to Google green. How did you stumble upon this?
Hi Chess,
I made a typo when entering a url. Then checked the Whois and found a cold trail. So either this is Google or someone who will get a call from the Google lawyers. But the www.e-cat.com rego should be worth a lot of bucks if it is not Google and just someone stirring the pot.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 07, 2011, 01:19:19 AM
Hi Chess,
I made a typo when entering a url. Then checked the Whois and found a cold trail. So either this is Google or someone who will get a call from the Google lawyers. But the www.e-cat.com rego should be worth a lot of bucks if it is not Google and just someone stirring the pot.
Do you think it is likely the real owner of Google is flexing some muscle? I know that many powerful energy interests own major media outlets. Google could simply be part of their portfolio collection.
Quote from: chessnyt on November 07, 2011, 01:23:33 AM
Do you think it is likely the real owner of Google is flexing some muscle? I know that many powerful energy interests own major media outlets. Google could simply be part of their portfolio collection.
I do know big green / renewable energy money, will not sit tidily by and let the E-Cat roll out around the without getting a big slice of the pie. There is way too much hard data that the Rossi black box E-Cat does produce a COP well over one. Big green energy money can't gamble that is not real as the losses from it not delivering to it delivering are massive.
I suspect there is a really big shite fight over who gets the E-Cat rights and unless Rossi has limited the licensees from onselling their rights, this rebidding process is going on right now.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 07, 2011, 01:36:52 AM
I do know big green / renewable energy money, will not sit tidily by and let the E-Cat roll out around the without getting a big slice of the pie. There is way too much hard data that the Rossi black box E-Cat does produce a COP well over one. Big green energy money can't gamble that is not real as the losses from it not delivering to it delivering are massive.
I suspect there is a really big shite fight over who gets the E-Cat rights and unless Rossi has limited the licensees from onselling their rights, this rebidding process is going on right now.
What is really hard to understand is any licensing of Rossi's device and technology period. According to the U.S. Patent Office (USPTO), Cold Fusion devices are NOT even patentable. How will Rossi be able to protect his intellectual property in light of patent limitations? It sure makes sense now why he doesn't let people know all of the details as of yet. He has no real other protection.
Quote from: chessnyt on November 07, 2011, 01:51:51 AM
What is really hard to understand is any licensing of Rossi's device and technology period. According to the U.S. Patent Office (USPTO), Cold Fusion devices are NOT even patentable. How will Rossi be able to protect his intellectual property in light of patent limitations? It sure makes sense now why he doesn't let people know all of the details as of yet. He has no real other protection.
Patent application is here:
http://ecatnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/USeCatPatentApplication.pdf
Note the name: METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR CARRYING OUT NICKEL AND HYDROGEN EXOTHERMAL REACTION
Interesting statement in the Rossi patent application:
Quote[0060] A practical embodiment of the inventive apparatus, installed on Oct. 16, 2007,
is at present perfectly operating 24 hours per day, and provides an amount of heat sufficient to
heat the factory of the Company
EON of via Carlo Ragazzi
18, at Bondeno (Province of Ferrara).
EON details in Italian:
http://www.elenchitelefonici.it/home/mappe.asp?visrisorsa=ON&comune=BONDENO&indirizzo=18,%20V.%20RAGAZZI%20CARLO&cap=44012&nome=EON%20S.R.L.&tel=%3CB%3ETel.%3C/B%3E%200532897038&prov=FE&categmappa=GENERATORI%20ELETTRICI%20ED%20ELETTRONICI
In Google translated English:
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.elenchitelefonici.it/home/mappe.asp%3Fvisrisorsa%3DON%26comune%3DBONDENO%26indirizzo%3D18,%2520V.%2520RAGAZZI%2520CARLO%26cap%3D44012%26nome%3DEON%2520S.R.L.%26tel%3D%253CB%253ETel.%253C/B%253E%25200532897038%26prov%3DFE%26categmappa%3DGENERATORI%2520ELETTRICI%2520ED%2520ELETTRONICI&ei=tou3ToHWCMGdiAekypiVAg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=14&ved=0CH4Q7gEwDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DEON,%2BCarlo%2BRagazzi%2B18%2BBondeno,%2BFerrara%26num%3D50%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D4Wf%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvnso
Phone number:
0532897038
I'm not sure what to make of the fact that this thread isn't blowing up this week. Only 2 or 3 people actively participating on this site of all places?
I need input!
The page count actually shrunk after you-know-who's posts were deleted.
Professor Focardi does a TED talk (15 Oct) on the E-Cat reactor. So far the video is in Italian but there are interesting shots of very early reactors, including one in a bucket and another that wraps around a table.
http://tedxtalks.ted.com/video/TEDxBologna-Sergio-Focardi-LE-c
Bloomberg's EnergyNow features Rossi's E-Cat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz9bukWbCCU
Focardi and Rossi paper on the E-Cat
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf
@Everyone:
The story about this incredible technology brought to market is exploding before our eyes. I'm still haven't been able to finish reading all of the new mainstream articles recently published.
This is a very good day for overunity and an even greater day for mankind ;D
Cheers,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 07, 2011, 08:50:30 PM
@Everyone:
The story about this incredible technology brought to market is exploding before our eyes. I'm still haven't been able to finish reading all of the new mainstream articles recently published.
This is a very good day for overunity and an even greater day for mankind ;D
I agree with you. However for this forum it may not be seen as such a good day or event. With Rossi promising to have home heat and electricity E-Cat on the market in 1 - 2 years, well that is the end of solar, wind and any other LENR / OU system unless they can get to market before Rossi.
Once the Chinese throw 50,000 engineers and a few billion dollars at this and they will, well you don't need to be a genius to know what will happen next. At this monent it time, it would not be that hard for a determined organization to steal a Rossi reactor and the fuel. I doubt it would matter much if it was a few years old.
I also have no doubt the Focardi cell, as used in his 1998 paper, is being duplicated in labs ALL around the world. It did work and can be examined to determine why this LENR reaction is occurring. Rossi has failed to be able to get patent protection and to close all the doors. The Focardi paper and results is a wide open door for anyone who wishes enter and to learn the secret of why a Ni-H reaction works, produces excess heat and almost no radiation.
The E-Cat may become a flash in the pan, but that flash, and whatever happens afterward, points the way forward via the Focardi 1998 paper and positive LENR results. No matter how much Rossi may wish or not that the 1998 Focardi paper was never published, it is there and in the public knowledge.
Guys all you need is already in the public domain. In 1998 Focardi published a paper showing 289 days of excess heat production from a Ni-H reaction. This is pre Rossi. It should be simple to duplicate Focardi's cell and learn all the secrets of Ni-H LENR reactions:
1994 peer reviewed:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1994/1994Focardi-AnomalousHeatNi-H-NuovoCimento.pdf
1998:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf
2010 with Rossi:
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf
How much more do you need to duplicate these experiments and move forward to understanding how the reaction works. If you don't do it, well I can assure you others will.
Amazing what a bit of digging turns up.
PROF. PIANTELLI, PROF. FOCARDI and others - PUBLICATIONS AND PRESENTATIONs re Ni-H syatems.
In chronological order
[1]. F. Piantelli, Atti Accad. Fis., Serie XV, Tomo XII, pag. 89-96 (1993)
[2] S. Focardi, R. Habel and F. Piantelli, “Anomalous Heat Production in Ni-H Systemsâ€, Nuovo Cim. Vol. 107 A, pp163-167, 1994
[3] Focardi S., Gabbani V., Habel R., Montalbano V., Piantelli F. and Veronesi S.,
"Status of Cold Fusion in Italy," Siena Workshop, Siena, 24-25 (March 1995
[4] S. Focardi, R.Habel and F.Piantelli: “Evidenza di reazioni nucleari in sistemi nichel-idrogeno a 400 gradi Celsiusâ€, Congresso Nazionale della Società Italiana di fisica, Perugia. 2-7 ottobre 1995.
[5] S. Focardi, V.Gabbani. R. Habel. V. Montalbano, . F. Piantelli, G. Solvetti, A. Tombari, S. Veronese:: “Evidence of Heat Production and Nuclear reactions in Hydrogen Loaded Nickel Rods in Siena Experimentsâ€. Convegno “Stato della fusione fredda in Italia†â€" Siena (1995)
[6[ Focardi S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F., and Veronesi, S., : "Analisi Superficiale Con Mocrosonda X Delle Barrette Metalliche Utilizzate Per La Produzione Anomala Di Energia Negli Esperimenti Di Siena â€Atti Acc. Fisiocritici Siena, Serie 15, Tomo 15, p. 109-115, (1996)
[7] S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F/Piantelli, C. Stanghini, S. Veronesi: â€New Esperimental Evidance of Nuclear Reactions in Ni-H Systems†â€" LXXXI Congresso nazionale S.I.F. â€" Verona (1996)
[8] S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli and S. Veronesi, “On the Ni-H Systemâ€, Asti Workshop in Hydrogen/Deuterium loaded Metals, pp 35-47, 1997.
[9] E. Campari, S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, R. Habel, V. Montalbano, F.Piantelli,, S. Veronesi, E.I. Usai â€" “Studio di sistemi Ni-H nella regione 600- 800 K,†Congresso Nazionale della Società Italiana di fisica, Como 27-31 ottobre 1997
[10] Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F. and Veronesi, S.,:"Large Excess Heat Production in Ni-H Systems,"Nuovo Cimento, Vol. 111A, p. 1233-1242, (1998
http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1998/1998FocardiS-LargeExcessHeatProductionNiH.pdf
[11] E.Campari, S.Focardi, V. Gabbani, V/ Momtalbano, F. Piantelli,E. S. Veronesi: “ Emissione di raggi gamma da sistemi Ni-Hâ€,Congresso Nazionale della Società Italiana di fisica, Salerno 28 settembre-2 ottobre 1998
[12] E.Campari, S.Focardi, V. Gabbani, V/ Momtalbano, F. Piantelli,E. S. Veronesi: “-Comportamento dei sistemi Ni-H†Congresso Nazionale della Società Italiana di fisica,Pavia 20-24 settembre 1999
[13] A. Battaglia, L. Daddi, S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V.Montalbano, F. Piantelli, P. G. Sona and S. Veronesi,
“Neutron emission in Ni.H systemsâ€, Nuovo Cim. Vol. 112A, pp 921-9311, 1999
http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/1999/1999BattagliaA-NeutronEmissionNiH.pdf
[14] S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, S. Veronesi, “On the Ni-H Systemâ€. Conference Proceedings vol 64, “Asti Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen/Deuterium loaded metalsâ€, 1999, W.J.M.F.Collis Editor
[15] S. Focardi, V. Gabbani,V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, S. Veronesi:“ Gamma emission from Ni-H Systems at 420-750 Kâ€Atti Accad. Fisiocritici, Serie XV, Tomo XVIII, (1999) pags 109-118
[16] E. G. Campari, S. Focardi, V. Gabbiani, V. Montalbano. F. Piantelli, E. Porcu, E. Tosti, S. Veronesi: “Ni--H systemsâ€, Proceedings of the 8th International Conference on Cold Fusion, Lerici (La Spezia), Italy 21-26 May 2000, pp 69-74
[17] Focardi, S. and Piantelli, F."Produzione Di Energia E Reazioni Nucleari In Sistemi Ni-H A 400 C" XIX Congresso Nazionale UIT, 2000+?
[18] E. Campari, S.Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, E. Sali, C. Stanghini, E.S. Veronesi: “Alcuni aspetti delle interazioni Ni-Hâ€,Congresso Nazionale della Società Italiana di fisica,Palermo 6-11 ottobre 2000.
[19] E. G. Campari, S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, S. Veronesi,â€Thermal Surface effects in Hydrogen and metalsâ€TESMI Workshop, Lecce, december 6-7 2002, A. Lorusso and V. Nassisi editors, 35-42 (2004).
[20] Campari, E., Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F.,Veronesi,S> "Overview of H-Ni Systems: Old Experiments and New Setup," 5th Asti Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen- / Deuterium-Loaded Metals, Asti,Italy, (2004)
http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2004/2004CampariEGoverviewOfH-NiSystems.pdf
[21] Campari, E.G., Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli,F., and Veronesi, F.,"Surface Analysis of Hydrogen-Loaded Nickel Alloys," Proceedings of the Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, Marseille, France, (2004)
[22] Focardi, S., Gabbani, V., Montalbano, V., Piantelli, F. and Veronesi, S., Focardi, S., et al."Evidence of Electromagnetic Radiation From Ni-H Systems," Proceedings of the Eleventh International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, Marseille, France, (2004)
[23] G. Campari, G. Fasano, S. Focardi, S; Lorusso, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, C. Stanghini, S. Veronesi: “Photon and particle emission, heat production and surface transformation in Ni-H systemâ€, The 11th International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science, October-5 November,, Marseiile Frtance 2004.
[24] G. Campari, G. Fasano, S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, C. Stanghini, S, Veronesi,: “Interazioni H-superfici metalliche: effetto FASEC, analisi comparata dei risultati sperimentali†Congresso Nazionale della Società Italiana di fisica, Brescia 20-25 settembre 2004.
[25] Focardi, F. Piantelli. "Produzione di energia e reazioni nucleari in sistemi Ni-H a 400 C".Università di Bologna,Conferenza nazionale sulla politica energetica in Italia, Bologna (18-19 aprile 2005). http://www.tecnosophia.org/documenti/Articoli/SessioneI/Focardi.pdf
[26] E.G. Campari, S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F/ Piantelli. S. Veronesi: “Overview of H-Ni Systems: evidence di H adsorption, Heat production, Photon and particle emission and surface transmutationsâ€. - The 6 International Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen/Deuterium loaded Metals, Siena 13-16 May 2005
[27] E.G. Campari, S.Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, S. Veronesi: “New experiments on Ni-H Systems†â€" Atti Accademia dei Fisiocritici (2005) (in print).
[28] E.G. Campari, S. Focardi, V. Gabbani, V. Montalbano, F. Piantelli, S. Veronesi:: “Energy production and nuclear reaction in Ni-H Systems†- The 7 International Workshop on Anomalies in Hydrogen/Deuterium loaded Metals, Asti 23-27 September 2006
[29] F. Piantelli:â€Energy Generation Process by Means of the Interaction among Hydrogen H- Ion and Transition Metals Atom in Crysla Nanostructures†Atti Accad Fisiocrit. Oct. 2008 in press (!?)
[30] F. Piantelliâ€: “Proton Reactor†Poster for the 9th Workshop ISCMNS, Sept 2010, Pontignano (Siena)
Who will step up and call all these scientists and professors frauds? Because it is on their shoulders that Rossi, Focardi and others created the E-Cat.
Quote from: Adolf on November 08, 2011, 04:54:38 AM
The awakening after this game will be very harsh.
But i have warned.
Please, don't forget it later.
Go away. Your warnings are unneeded, and your postings are a waste of time and space.
Don't worry, it will be a true bombshell soon! ::)
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 07, 2011, 10:04:27 PM
I agree with you. However for this forum it may not be seen as such a good day or event. With Rossi promising to have home heat and electricity E-Cat on the market in 1 - 2 years, well that is the end of solar, wind and any other LENR / OU system unless they can get to market before Rossi.
I don't know of any devices here that are ready to go to market yet. Rossi looks like the only one with a viable energy technology to rival that of fossil fuels.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 07, 2011, 10:04:27 PM
Once the Chinese throw 50,000 engineers and a few billion dollars at this and they will, well you don't need to be a genius to know what will happen next. At this monent it time, it would not be that hard for a determined organization to steal a Rossi reactor and the fuel. I doubt it would matter much if it was a few years old.
I also have no doubt the Focardi cell, as used in his 1998 paper, is being duplicated in labs ALL around the world. It did work and can be examined to determine why this LENR reaction is occurring. Rossi has failed to be able to get patent protection and to close all the doors. The Focardi paper and results is a wide open door for anyone who wishes enter and to learn the secret of why a Ni-H reaction works, produces excess heat and almost no radiation.
The E-Cat may become a flash in the pan, but that flash, and whatever happens afterward, points the way forward via the Focardi 1998 paper and positive LENR results. No matter how much Rossi may wish or not that the 1998 Focardi paper was never published, it is there and in the public knowledge.
The good that will come from this is not just the clean, cheap and abundant energy that this technology is capable of. The other benefit will be the road that Rossi will have paved for future energy technologies that will be met with far less resistance from the scientific community as well as the mainstream media of today. This will lead to further innovations that were deemed impossible before this revolutionary breakthrough.
Best Regards,
Chessss
Quote from: bullsnbears1 on November 07, 2011, 06:35:07 PM
I'm not sure what to make of the fact that this thread isn't blowing up this week. Only 2 or 3 people actively participating on this site of all places?
I need input!
The page count actually shrunk after you-know-who's posts were deleted.
I’m soooooo with you on this one. It’s as if some wish it would simply go away. They are not happy at all. There are some that may be jealous. And then there are the skeptics (around 40% of those polled) that reside here that still don’t believe it actually works or is for real on an “over unity†web site ::) They won’t even comment in this thread.
It also may just be that some people here may feel either threatened or robbed of the spotlight. I won’t mention any specific names but I have actually seen people from this site trying to shoot down the technology and Rossi at another alternative energy site. It’s simply incredible.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 09, 2011, 09:23:37 PM
I don't know of any devices here that are ready to go to market yet. Rossi looks like the only one
with a viable energy technology to rival that of fossil fuels.
The good that will come from this is not just the clean, cheap and abundant energy that this
technology is capable of. The other benefit will be the road that Rossi will have paved for future
energy technologies that will be met with far less resistance from the scientific community as well as
the mainstream media of today. This will lead to further innovations that were deemed impossible
before this revolutionary breakthrough.
Best Regards,
Chessss
Yes indeed. I think it's like the 'berlin wall'. Resistance to this evolving art will simply collapse -
overnight. And this is the best possible way of eroding it. Just make the technology available.
Frankly I think we've spent way too much time trying to convince our academics.
Anyway. Thanks for alerting us to this. It is VERY SIGNIFICANT. And really good news for those of us who care about the future.
Kindest and best regards
Rosemary
Quote from: chessnyt on November 09, 2011, 09:38:52 PM
I’m soooooo with you on this one. It’s as if some wish it would simply go away. They are not happy at all. There are some that may be jealous. And then there are the skeptics (around 40% of those polled) that reside here that still don’t believe it actually works or is for real on an “over unity†web site ::) They won’t even comment in this thread.
It also may just be that some people here may feel either threatened or robbed of the spotlight. I won’t mention any specific names but I have actually seen people from this site trying to shoot down the technology and Rossi at another alternative energy site. It’s simply incredible.
Regards,
Chess
Chess
I'm not sure if your poll is still accurate because if any of the skeptics have since changed their minds, they still cannot change their vote.
I wonder how many of the initial skeptics still have doubt in view of all the recent events.
Quote from: lumen on November 10, 2011, 10:42:29 AM
Chess
I'm not sure if your poll is still accurate because if any of the skeptics have since changed their minds, they still cannot change their vote.
I wonder how many of the initial skeptics still have doubt in view of all the recent events.
Great point, I'd be very interested to see a new poll based on the latest info.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 10, 2011, 01:31:09 AM
Yes indeed. I think it's like the 'berlin wall'. Resistance to this evolving art will simply collapse -
overnight. And this is the best possible way of eroding it. Just make the technology available.
Frankly I think we've spent way too much time trying to convince our academics.
Anyway. Thanks for alerting us to this. It is VERY SIGNIFICANT. And really good news for those of us who care about the future.
Kindest and best regards
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
You are very welcome, Rosemary. I was very happy to share it with everyone here. Even those who initially attacked me for supporting it.
You are 100% correct regarding how much time we've spent trying to convince academics. The market place is the perfect place to demonstrate that a technology works. If the product doesn't work, it will die in the business world. If it works and performs well, it will thrive. I'm just so relieved that Rossi's E-Cat has made it to market and continues to sell. Rossi's priorities are right on target. Instead of trying to win over skeptics, he focuses his efforts on proving his technology to paying customers. After all, you run a successful business by satisfying your customers ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE. Rossi really knows what he is doing.
Nice to hear from you, Rosemary.
Best Regards,
Chess
National Instruments signs to do E-Cat controls
http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_National_Instruments_signs_to_do_E-Cat_controls/
Note the statement has been verified by NI as at the bottom of the page.
Quote from: lumen on November 10, 2011, 10:42:29 AM
Chess
I'm not sure if your poll is still accurate because if any of the skeptics have since changed their minds, they still cannot change their vote.
I wonder how many of the initial skeptics still have doubt in view of all the recent events.
You have a valid point. I have started a new poll today so that we can get a more accurate view of how people here stand on Rossi's E-Cat technology currently. Thank you for bringing up this point.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 10, 2011, 07:53:42 PM
National Instruments signs to do E-Cat controls
http://pesn.com/2011/11/10/9601953_National_Instruments_signs_to_do_E-Cat_controls/
Note the statement has been verified by NI as at the bottom of the page.
@IronShell3d:
I just finished reading the entire article and this is a very positive step for Rossi's device (and the future of his company). Please keep us abreast of any future developments involving the E-Cat. GO ROSSI GO!!!
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 10, 2011, 07:51:21 PM
@Rosemary:
You are very welcome, Rosemary. I was very happy to share it with everyone here. Even those who initially attacked me for supporting it.
You are 100% correct regarding how much time we've spent trying to convince academics. The market place is the perfect place to demonstrate that a technology works. If the product doesn't work, it will die in the business world. If it works and performs well, it will thrive. I'm just so relieved that Rossi's E-Cat has made it to market and continues to sell. Rossi's priorities are right on target. Instead of trying to win over skeptics, he focuses his efforts on proving his technology to paying customers. After all, you run a successful business by satisfying your customers ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE. Rossi really knows what he is doing.
Nice to hear from you, Rosemary.
Best Regards,
Chess
Thanks Chess. Frankly it was precisely this news that tempted me back to these forums. For the record one of the guys working with us has designed a little LED number - as a display - worked off a little battery. Charming display and easy to see a battery either recharges or stays charged. It's difficult to tell. The same principle though. Just not the same level of impact as Rossi's device. Hopefully he'll get this to market soon. I don't think he'd be tempted to make this public on these forums though. But it's all good.
Golly. Things are moving fast. That's a good thing - but I fondly predict it will eventually entirely outpace our abilities to keep track of them. lol. What a delicious dilemma.
Well done for sticking at this news. It think that persistence eventually pays off. And you had the courage to stand by the evidence. Very nice indeed.
Kindest as ever
Rosemary
It looks like there is another device to consider. 350 COP?
"Steorn has announced an overunity technology that produces massive gains of energy in the form of heat. The name that has been given to the technology is, "Hepha Heat."
May involve a coil wrapped around a nickel core (that is both magnetic and conductive) acting as an inductor.
http://pesn.com/2011/11/08/9601951_Steorn_Announces_HephaHeat_Oveurnity_Technology/
(added)
Also see http://www.steorn.com/heating/
and http://pesn.com/2011/10/05/9501927_Steorn_CEO_Posts_Overunity_Heater_Video/
Bill
Perhaps we're entering another period in time similar to the early 1900's, when ways were being found to make use of and get that scary new electricity stuff to the masses.
If that's so, who will be the new Tesla, Edison, Marconi, General Electric, Westinghouse etc etc.? And will the best man win? And what variations of the new technologies will fall by the wayside? What deals are being struck right now, that we may never find out about, but whose consequences we will end up dealing with for the next few decades or centuries?
Interesting times.
I personally am of the belief and opinion that one way or another at least one of these new energy technologies will become widely available. Even the most hard-bitten and cynical and power-hungry of human animals can see there are some things about the current power/energy setup that need changing. But I hold no real hope that such people will be interested in or willing to welcome some of the changes that a new energy system could help bring about. They will just be doing their utmost to maintain their supposed power and control over others, not really caring about the medium of exchange being used.
It's also my belief that these new technologies, when fully tested, proven, developed, implemented, and then taken for granted, won't change any of the basic problems people have been trying to come to terms with since the dawn of time. So it will just be business as usual, but with the new-fangled deck-chairs re-arranged a bit.
Not that I don't have hope for a genuinely better future for all humanity. Despite what I've just said, I believe most deeply in my fellow beings' ability to rise above and improve their lot. The future will be amazing. But the new technologies will just be an expression of our inherent greatness, not a cause of it.
And if you're reading this and thinking I'm just talking a lot of airy-fairy, unscientific, belief-driven nonsense, you're right. But that ties in with one of the reasons this thread isn't exploding with reactions to all this exciting news we've been getting. And that is because, as stated earlier on in the thread, it's all high-end technology. Low Energy Nuclear Reaction technology is a bit beyond most of the tinkerers who frequent websites like this. So what is there to say, besides "Great, I hope they let us have access to it, even if they can't put a meter on it."
There could be more discussion about the science behind the technology, but that would be beyond most of us too, even if the key secret ingredients of the reactors were actually known.
Another reason for the lack of input to the thread is that once the habitually, unreasonably skeptical among us are presented with unavoidable facts and test results, the only recourse is to either have a hissy-fit and engage in personal attacks, as if that will somehow discredit the technology, or disengage from the subject altogether, moving on to some other subject that can be used as a vehicle for expressing what just adds up to low self-esteem.
And similarly, as was mentioned earlier, there is an element of being addicted to the chase as well. So that actual results which threaten to end ones favourite past-time of fruitless searching for free-energy, are resented. Some people just about make a living out of that endless searching, and so are actually allied with their supposed enemies in maintaining a kind of circular tail-chasing status-quo.
Anyway, that's enough from me. All I really wanted to say was, thanks for keeping us up to date, some of us are actually interested in these developments, but just don't have anything productive/constructive to add to the subject.
Rossi's E-Cat web site is up:
http://www.leonardo-ecat.com
I find this very interesting. Where is there a scam here?
http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/1MW_Plant/index.html
*Purchase Terms*
* Price: 2,000 Euros per kilowatt.
* 1 MW plant. Only under approved circumstances will smaller sizes be
considered, but no less than 100 kW.
* Full payment into escrow account.
* License contract written up specific to customer.
* Escrow funds released to Leonardo Corp upon satisfactory completion
of plant test per customer-Leonardo agreement. Escrow funds return
to customer if test results are not satisfactory.
For more details and information, please send an email to info@leonardocorp1996.com
@Iwh:
Your post was very well written and thought out. I commend you for making such an effort. Welcome to the thread :)
Quote from: lwh on November 11, 2011, 05:24:00 PM
It's also my belief that these new technologies, when fully tested, proven, developed, implemented, and then taken for granted, won't change any of the basic problems people have been trying to come to terms with since the dawn of time. So it will just be business as usual, but with the new-fangled deck-chairs re-arranged a bit.
I don't believe things will return to the way they were and it will just be "
...business as usual" if the coming energy revolution reaches its full fruition. Most of us are currently energy dependent. We depend on a variety of different energy vendors (e.g. Cal. Edison, Texaco, etc.) to light our houses, run our cars and even fuel our barbeques. Once the new energy systems/generators saturate the market, most of us will for the first time in our lives, have a legitimate opportunity to become completely energy independent. This is a major, major change. It's similar to the saying "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Keep in mind that 5 of the top 10 wealthiest companies (according to Fortune 500) are oil companies (energy venders). This will finally NOT be the case any longer and we will have a chance to see this "undoing" in our lifetime. So becoming energy independent is not exactly business as usual.
Quote from: lwh on November 11, 2011, 05:24:00 PM
And similarly, as was mentioned earlier, there is an element of being addicted to the chase as well. So that actual results which threaten to end ones favourite past-time of fruitless searching for free-energy, are resented. Some people just about make a living out of that endless searching, and so are actually allied with their supposed enemies in maintaining a kind of circular tail-chasing status-quo.
So true. The "
...being addicted to the chase" factor. I believe that all of the factors you have mentioned previously as well as this one are spot on (some I hadn't even considered in such detail). The reasons that this thread isn't exploding is multifaceted. The "
...circular tail-chasing status-quo." facet to me is likened to cancer research. If someone discovered a cure for cancer outside the prominent cancer research industry, think of how all of the doctors, technicians and scientists (belonging to the prominent cancer research community) would feel. It would mean the end of their research, grants, donations and their very jobs! (not to mention a huge gash in their pride coming from an outsider) This would NOT be very welcome at all just as Rossi is not being welcomed as he should be.
And here's the clincher. Take a look around and you'll notice that some of the MOST POPULAR threads on this site have NOTHING to do with over unity WHATSOEVER. Think about that for a minute. Let that sink in...
Regards,
Chess
I was also rather 'blown away' with your post there - Iwh.
It's a fascinating subject. I know that there are those who sort of confront the 'green eyed monster'. But I also know that there's a huge number of the readers here who are rather afraid to invest in too much 'hope' for all this good news. Understandably. We've either become hopelessly pessimistic or absurdly optimistic. Or - for those like me - we vacillate between both those extremes.
In future, when and if I see anyone posting on the fact that there's no evidence of OU then I'll post that link. It's a work of art. What a pleasure. I've been feeling so motivated since I read up on all of this. But I must say it's difficult to understand why it hasn't riveted more interest. At least one expects the predictable round of 'denial' from our trolls. The difference here - presumably - is that they're not looking for accreditation. lol I must say this. It's an eloquent piece of experimental evidence when it's packaged so beautifully. And what enormous promise. Unlike you - I confidently predict we'll be able to shake off the yoke of out grid and energy monopolists. Perhaps we'll need to go to steam engines to power our cars. But with all that excess energy we can also recycle sea water. Golly. The options boggle the mind.
What fun.
Golly.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: chessnyt on November 11, 2011, 11:15:14 PM
@Iwh:
Your post was very well written and thought out. I commend you for making such an effort. Welcome to the thread :)
I don't believe things will return to the way they were and it will just be "...business as usual" if the coming energy revolution reaches its full fruition. Most of us are currently energy dependent. We depend on a variety of different energy vendors (e.g. Cal. Edison, Texaco, etc.) to light our houses, run our cars and even fuel our barbeques. Once the new energy systems/generators saturate the market, most of us will for the first time in our lives, have a legitimate opportunity to become completely energy independent. This is a major, major change. It's similar to the saying "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." Keep in mind that 5 of the top 10 wealthiest companies (according to Fortune 500) are oil companies (energy venders). This will finally NOT be the case any longer and we will have a chance to see this "undoing" in our lifetime. So becoming energy independent is not exactly business as usual.
So true. The "...being addicted to the chase" factor. I believe that all of the factors you have mentioned previously as well as this one are spot on (some I hadn't even considered in such detail). The reasons that this thread isn't exploding is multifaceted. The "...circular tail-chasing status-quo." facet to me is likened to cancer research. If someone discovered a cure for cancer outside the prominent cancer research industry, think of how all of the doctors, technicians and scientists (belonging to the prominent cancer research community) would feel. It would mean the end of their research, grants, donations and their very jobs! (not to mention a huge gash in their pride coming from an outsider) This would NOT be very welcome at all just as Rossi is not being welcomed as he should be.
And here's the clincher. Take a look around and you'll notice that some of the MOST POPULAR threads on this site have NOTHING to do with over unity WHATSOEVER. Think about that for a minute. Let that sink in...
Regards,
Chess
There are more than 200 different types of cancer. You can develop cancer in any body organ. There are over 60 different organs in the body where a cancer can develop.
it's more like, a cure for cancers not cancer.
@Rosemary:
Things are finally starting to "click" for Rossi as IronShell3d announced yesterday. There was one die hard critic to which Rossi replied (just paraphrasing here) that he could always purchase one of his units to test his technology privately or otherwise.
Then there's the deal he cut with National Instruments (thanks again, IronShell) which will be doing the controls for the E-Cat.
And finally, there's the new website Rossi has setup for his business and a way for future customers to contact his company.
It's nice to see some more newcomers to the thread as I really liked to hear what was on Iwh's mind. There's a guy who can write and write well. WOW! After all this time, it's nice to hear from some of the previously silent members of the gallery.
Energy independence is another form of freedom (or degree of) and we were all intended to live that way.
Best regards,
Chess
Hello Chess,
Where are you getting all this info? Ironshell? I can't find it.
I might tell you that there's one aspect of all this that's missing. WHERE ARE OUR ACADEMIC COMMENTS.? WHERE ARE OUR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTERS? If anyone ever doubted the reality of our troll's 'agenda' just know that it's frighteningly effective. By rights there should be banner headlines that Fleischman and Pons have been vindicated. That was widely reported in the early 90's and discredited as quickly as it emerged. It left everyone feeling that their candy had been snatched away. And the undercurrents of suspicion against 'agendas' was the only after taste.
Well. What gives? It's the silence that's scarey. Just look at our 'free energy' forums and see who's commenting on this. No-one. That's the part that scares me. I assure you - all readers here - that the method of 'discrediting' either the personalities or the technology of any free energy device is absolutely BRILLIANTLY effective. It should be. It's well funded.
Best regards Chess. I might tell you that I've been emailing everyone on this news. And I have a really extensive email list. lol
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 12, 2011, 08:14:17 PM
Hello Chess,
Where are you getting all this info? Ironshell? I can't find it.
I might tell you that there's one aspect of all this that's missing. WHERE ARE OUR ACADEMIC COMMENTS.? WHERE ARE OUR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTERS? If anyone ever doubted the reality of our troll's 'agenda' just know that it's frighteningly effective. By rights there should be banner headlines that Fleischman and Pons have been vindicated. That was widely reported in the early 90's and discredited as quickly as it emerged. It left everyone feeling that their candy had been snatched away. And the undercurrents of suspicion against 'agendas' was the only after taste.
Well. What gives? It's the silence that's scarey. Just look at our 'free energy' forums and see who's commenting on this. No-one. That's the part that scares me. I assure you - all readers here - that the method of 'discrediting' either the personalities or the technology of any free energy device is absolutely BRILLIANTLY effective. It should be. It's well funded.
Best regards Chess. I might tell you that I've been emailing everyone on this news. And I have a really extensive email list. lol
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
IronShell3d has posted the most recent updates in reply#258 and reply#264.
I have also been writing every mainstream media outlet I can think of. I have contacted most of them through their "idea for a future story" sections of their websites. Some have replied but only with general form letters confirming they have received the messages.
I can't imagine what is taking the mainstream media so long to break this story. The only sensible explanation I can come up with is the current (possibly new) owners of the major media networks may be the same owners of other energy interests.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 12, 2011, 08:44:58 PM
@Rosemary:
IronShell3d has posted the most recent updates in reply#258 and reply#264.
I have also been writing every mainstream media outlet I can think of. I have contacted most of them through their "idea for a future story" sections of their websites. Some have replied but only with general form letters confirming they have received the messages.
I can't imagine what is taking the mainstream media so long to break this story. The only sensible explanation I can come up with is the current (possibly new) owners of the major media networks may be the same owners of other energy interests.
Best regards,
Chess
Thanks Chess. I've just seen those posts. I have some frightening knowledge of how our journal publications are edited. I'll give a link for anyone who may be interested - but I'll do it on my thread. This needs to stay focused on this technology.
I think the truth is that our media are led by the nose by our academics. And the really sad thing too is that our academic research into any energy is funded by our rich oil cartels and grid monopolists. So. There's small hope of funding for energy that is NOT going to first benefit them. Right now they're invested heavily in solar and wind energies. And there's really big money expended here. Our own grid suppliers are ESKOM. I was allowed to 'talk' about our own problem related to an emergent technology on a radio show here in SA - provided ONLY that I did not mention ESKOM. ESKOM are in the process of installing a nuclear expansion program - here in our Beautiful Cape - barely 30 kilometers from Table Mountain - which is a World Heritage Site and one of the 7 geographical 'wonders of the world' - as was awarded the day before yesterday. And it's also to be situated barely 7 kilometers from the ONLY fault line in all of a South Africa. Needless to say - I was ENTIRELY unable to reference the complaint without being able to also reference the
source of that complaint. And in the light of this progress into Cold Fusion - any need for nuclear expansion will be obviated.
I'm afraid this thread topic is possibly regressing to a discussion on these conspiracies. But I do think it's very relevant. We all really need to start making a stand. Right now the evidence is everywhere that our Thermodynamic Laws need to be entirely revised. They belong to the dark ages - together with all that blather about the impossibility of the breach of unity.
I just get angry when I think of all this. It's an insult to our intelligence. I would love Iwh to give us more of his insights. He has the very real merit of remaining objective.
Kindest again
R
edited
Apologies for consecutive posts - but here's what I've written to our local newspapers. ;D
TO THE EDITOR
Dear Sir,
It seems that our Government are forging ahead with their nuclear expansion programs â€" in defiance of any open discussion about this with the public.
This link is to a cold fusion technology that is now available to the market. It will put paid to any need for expansion and will allow each and every citizen to choose whether or not he uses a grid supply or his own. Is there some reason that this technology is not being investigated? Could it be that you are co-operating with Eskom and, possibly, with our Government to keep a lid on this news?
Until now we, the public, have assumed that our media editorial staff are impartial and report on the news fairly and openly. What gives?
Kind regards
Rosemary Ainslie
http://www.leonardoecat.com/fp/Products/1MW_Plant/index.html
Hi Rosie, Glad your taking part in this topic. Things have gotten better on so many energy processes, it seems big oily will be big losers soon. But we will still need lubricants unless big oily wants to much for them also. Jojoba oil can be made into fuel, diesel, oil. So nature wins hands down. Jojoba is also non-toxic and is wonderful for antibiotic properties to use on the body. It even cures mange on animals. My pup likes it better than mineral oil for her ears.
We are having a lot of success on the Wesley Groups efforts for the topic on Kapanadze 5Kwatt device. A few successful replications and theories are solidifying. Busy night and I must get some work out now so "Wishing you the best life has to offer and God's grace".
Richard
Quote from: Hope on November 12, 2011, 09:33:40 PM
Hi Rosie, Glad your taking part in this topic. Things have gotten better on so many energy processes, it seems big oily will be big losers soon. But we will still need lubricants unless big oily wants to much for them also. Jojoba oil can be made into fuel, diesel, oil. So nature wins hands down. Jojoba is also non-toxic and is wonderful for antibiotic properties to use on the body. It even cures mange on animals. My pup likes it better than mineral oil for her ears.
We are having a lot of success on the Wesley Groups efforts for the topic on Kapanadze 5Kwatt device. A few successful replications and theories are solidifying. Busy night and I must get some work out now so "Wishing you the best life has to offer and God's grace".
Richard
Dear Richard,
Hello indeed. Always a pleasure. I'll try out that jojoba oil. Sounds good and I've got a beautiful Alsatian that could do with it. This new topic on cold fusion has ENTIRELY engrossed me. I've been reading up on the physics. It's FASCINATING.
Take care Hope. And very nice to see how busy you've been. Keep up the good work.
Rosie
Face your death's with courage, the government is only trying to keep up with the Gods, Nuclear energy.
Shepard's are so very smart, I like um too. We rescued a Peke at 5 months and she is now 7 months and is sooo much better now she is a good companion.
This cold fusion device looks simple to build but a turbo mole vac pump is costly so I am going to keep an eye open for a rebuild-able one. The rest we can fabricate or off the shelf. It is strangely reminding me of a geet reactor with a bit of loop back thermo to stabilize the reaction. Ceramic of possibly the cermet type will be a bit more difficult to come by altho not impossible. H2 will create a 1:1,8XX implode if ignited in a void without oxygen so perhaps a vac pump of a less complicated nature will be sufficient just to make a partial void at first. I am lucky (blessed)to have a friend with a machine shop who is a real expert at his trade to help.
Quote from: Hope on November 13, 2011, 02:08:39 AM
Shepard's are so very smart, I like um too. We rescued a Peke at 5 months and she is now 7 months and is sooo much better now she is a good companion.
This cold fusion device looks simple to build but a turbo mole vac pump is costly so I am going to keep an eye open for a rebuild-able one. The rest we can fabricate or off the shelf. It is strangely reminding me of a geet reactor with a bit of loop back thermo to stabilize the reaction. Ceramic of possibly the cermet type will be a bit more difficult to come by altho not impossible. H2 will create a 1:1,8XX implode if ignited in a void without oxygen so perhaps a vac pump of a less complicated nature will be sufficient just to make a partial void at first. I am lucky (blessed)to have a friend with a machine shop who is a real expert at his trade to help.
Hello Hope
I'm not sure of the patent status. But I've just read through a study on the replication of all this. The cost of this is 2 million dollars per unit. That's steep. I'm not sure that it's justifiable. So. Any reverse engineering may be a good thing Richard. They've tried it with alternate materials but it seems that the magic mix is with hydrogen and nickle. Cheap and plentiful - but if it's patented then we'll all need to build our own. And this is not 'tinkering' material - as Iwh has pointed out. But I intend doing some research here as well. It's too compelling to ignore. This is yet another example of how much I wish I had some formal training - and right now I wish it was in chemistry.
Meanwhile - it seems that there are those technologies that could very well compete and do much the same thing. The attraction of this - to me personally - is that it absolutely does not require a robust switching system which is the only real restriction to getting heavy duty wattages from those technologies that the most of us work with.
So Guys. That's the downside. It's probably patented - else they wouldn't be asking so much for a unit. Meanwhile - just in case this has been missed - here's a study report on the efficacy of the device. Mixed results - included some controls - and anomalous heating effects related to the 'absorption' of that gas. Interestingly it does work with deuterium and ? helium ? - I think they mentioned. May be a way around any patent restrictions.
Kindest regards,
R
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Flenr-canr.org%2Facrobat%2FCerronZebainvestigat.pdf&ei=goi_Tt3MBMiGhQfDhpmxBA&usg=AFQjCNFQ8QGhsY6HZUFUzoHdCtnH0q1w-A
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 13, 2011, 08:37:09 AM
So Guys. That's the downside. It's probably patented - else they wouldn't be asking so much for a unit. Meanwhile - just in case this has been missed - here's a study report on the efficacy of the device. Mixed results - included some controls - and anomalous heating effects related to the 'absorption' of that gas. Interestingly it does work with deuterium and ? helium ? - I think they mentioned. May be a way around any patent restrictions.
@Rosemary:
Here's a link that covers the patent issue concerning Rossi's E-Cat in pretty good detail:
http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/new-us-patent-law-would-affect-cold-fusion-and-help-andrea-rossi
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 13, 2011, 01:47:01 PM
@Rosemary:
Here's a link that covers the patent issue concerning Rossi's E-Cat in pretty good detail:
http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/new-us-patent-law-would-affect-cold-fusion-and-help-andrea-rossi
Best regards,
Thanks Chess. As a rule, when commodities move into competitive production then they get ever cheaper. And with something as desirable as this then I think that there should be some serious competition.
One of the editors at our local paper has never even heard of cold fusion. I think that speaks to his age more than anything else. He couldn't have been that active in journalism during the 90's else he would surely have noticed something. It was headline news there - for a while. I am constantly amazed at how few people out there are even interested in energy. It's weird.
kindest regards,
Rosemary
Hi all. I've been doing my bit to spread the news. It's detailed in the following links. ;D
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/
I must be on a good path, it seems that I am good friends with just the right (retired) gases plant engineer. He was tops at Union Carbide and lives close here on the island, he can put together one of these test units "with ease". He is putting together a costings sheet and soon we will have our own proof. Reheating the element core to self run is not difficult, he understands these diagrams far better than I do. WOW! I feel like I am just where I am suppose to be. When we have a proto and results I will post them. Of course we can't sell them commerically, but like you said we CAN make our own for private use. GREEN POWER! I can't see how E-Cat can ever obtain a pat. unless he makes arrangments with the inventors of the process. He can however look into his self run process, but from what my friend says it is used for other proceedures in gases plant already commonly.
Quote from: Hope on November 14, 2011, 01:22:06 AM
I must be on a good path, it seems that I am good friends with just the right (retired) gases plant engineer. He was tops at Union Carbide and lives close here on the island, he can put together one of these test units "with ease". He is putting together a costings sheet and soon we will have our own proof. Reheating the element core to self run is not difficult, he understands these diagrams far better than I do. WOW! I feel like I am just where I am suppose to be. When we have a proto and results I will post them. Of course we can't sell them commerically, but like you said we CAN make our own for private use. GREEN POWER! I can't see how E-Cat can ever obtain a pat. unless he makes arrangments with the inventors of the process. He can however look into his self run process, but from what my friend says it is used for other proceedures in gases plant already commonly.
Good gracious Hope. You are really amazing. 'Hope' to the hopeful. This is just WONDERFUL news. Very well done indeed.
Rosie
;D
Yeah, that's great news Hope. Looking forward to seeing what you make of it.
I said in my previous post the science behind this technology is beyond most of us, but so what if it is? Most people don't know, in scientific terms, how solar panels work either, and a lot of people would even struggle to explain how an internal combustion engine works, but they'll still use them. In the same way, people don't need to understand the science behind the Rossi type device in order to use one, or even make one. To make the thing work you only need to know how it does what it does, not why it does it.
The original inventors might have had to have understood the technology from a theoretical science point of view, but those of us who follow don't have to, all we have to do is effectively reverse-engineer the things. And if people can do that, by figuring out what arrangement of which materials is required to replicate the Rossi device, then why shouldn't they? Especially at this early experimental stage of the development, before the things get totally commercialized (and regulated).
With clear instructions, along with a clear explanation of the potential dangers involved, why couldn't a person with the required tools and equipment and expertise be able to replicate the Rossi device? If there are no prohibited or prohibitively expensive elements involved, and if the construction doesn't require using highly trained skills, or having highly specialized parts machined, then why couldn't people experiment with this technology at home?
I'm not saying it's something anyone could or should do, and I may be misunderstanding the complexities and over-simplifying things too much, but on the face of it, it doesn't seem any more dangerous than dealing with any device that produces high temperature water and steam.
P.S
Thanks for the responses to my previous post, but don't be offended if I don't contribute much to the thread, my opinions are just opinions and (despite voicing yet more of them in what I just wrote) I'd rather stay silent and so help keep the thread focussed more on actual information and facts relating to the Rossi device and it's replications.
Despite the fact that I am very optimistic Rossi and his partner(s) have found an increadible technology, replication will be quite hard in my view.
The main reason is Rossi is using a catalyst that is not known, nor has it been published or has it been described in his patent application (I've just read the original Italian PA).
The funny thing is that he actually does not need to keep the catalyst secret. If I read his claims correctly he is claiming the principle rather than detailing the physical/chemical process, mentioning the use of any catalyst. This not only means that his upcoming patent includes the use of his own discovered catalyst, but also any catalyst that is already existing or will be found in the future.
In my view he is holding the details of his catalyst to stay ahead of any competition in the market, while he in principle doesn't need to remain the patent holder of the basic patent.
Once he's selling commercial products, the catalyst he is applying will be easily revealed, so replication will be more easy. But by then his PA will be granted and production can't be done without a license.
Or, in the case his PA will not be granted (e.g. because of prior art), he just can't license the basics but by then (if he's smart enough) will have patented the control technology that is required to keep the process controlled.
Another practical problem that is not mentioned anywhere is the particilar storage of liquid hydrogen.
Liquid hydrogen can't just be stored in presurized containers. It needs to have an overpresure valve which will have to leak hydrogen to allow a constant presure in the container or at least prevent the container to self destroy.
This means liquid hydrogen can only be stored for a few weeks having an acceptable size container in mind.
So, for use in private homes this is a major issue yet to be resolved IMHO.
Rossi probably needs to talk to Honda.
Honda has developed a hydrogen production unit for private homes to allow local generation of (liquid) hydrogen.
If such an installation is required, the whole setup will not be very affordable at all.
Lot's of remaining challenges ahead.....
Quote from: teslaalset on November 14, 2011, 10:32:05 AM
Another practical problem that is not mentioned anywhere is the particilar storage of liquid hydrogen.
Liquid hydrogen can't just be stored in presurized containers. It needs to have an overpresure valve which will have to leak hydrogen to allow a constant presure in the container or at least prevent the container to self destroy.
This means liquid hydrogen can only be stored for a few weeks having an acceptable size container in mind.
So, for use in private homes this is a major issue yet to be resolved IMHO.
Rossi probably needs to talk to Honda.
Honda has developed a hydrogen production unit for private homes to allow local generation of (liquid) hydrogen.
If such an installation is required, the whole setup will not be very affordable at all.
Lot's of remaining challenges ahead.....
I don't see any reason why liquid hydrogen would be required. In fact it was stated that the pressure in the bottle was 50 bar and the testing did not change the pressure because little hydrogen was used (1.7g). From this I believe the bottle only contains pressurized hydrogen and is not necessary to maintain in liquid form or vent the bottle.
The catalyst he claims are a wait and see item, several experiments by others showed large energy gains over 36 days before stopping the experiment by using nothing but nickel rod.
I was also thinking of building something but decided to first wait and see what comes out in the wash. Hopefully, the lacking information will all be cleared up over the next few months.
Quote from: lumen on November 14, 2011, 12:25:01 PM
I don't see any reason why liquid hydrogen would be required. In fact it was stated that the pressure in the bottle was 50 bar and the testing did not change the pressure because little hydrogen was used (1.7g). From this I believe the bottle only contains pressurized hydrogen and is not necessary to maintain in liquid form or vent the bottle.
You might be right.
It's a long time ago since I practiced some calculations on pressurized gassed so let my try in this case:
Weight of one liter Hydrogen at 1 Bar is roughly 0.09 grams
The 5 KW unit that will be developed has an hydrogen bottle with an estimated volume of 5 liters at most
According to the 'formal' website hosted by PesWiki, it consumes 1 gram each 6 month on average before requiring a refill.
A container of 5 liter pressurized at 50 Bar could contain 5 x 0.09 x 50 = 22.5 grams of hydrogen.
So, I think we can safely assume you are right about using pressurized hydrogen with that kind of consumption
Quote
The catalyst he claims are a wait and see item, several experiments by others showed large energy gains over 36 days before stopping the experiment by using nothing but nickel rod.
I was also thinking of building something but decided to first wait and see what comes out in the wash. Hopefully, the lacking information will all be cleared up over the next few months.
Any useful reference(s) on such results with only pure nickel and hydrogen?
any idea about how much it could cost the home edition?
Quote from: teslaalset on November 14, 2011, 04:50:57 PM
You might be right.
It's a long time ago since I practiced some calculations on pressurized gassed so let my try in this case:
Weight of one liter Hydrogen at 1 Bar is roughly 0.09 grams
The 5 KW unit that will be developed has an hydrogen bottle with an estimated volume of 5 liters at most
According to the 'formal' website hosted by PesWiki, it consumes 1 gram each 6 month on average before requiring a refill.
A container of 5 liter pressurized at 50 Bar could contain 5 x 0.09 x 50 = 22.5 grams of hydrogen.
So, I think we can safely assume you are right about using pressurized hydrogen with that kind of consumption
Any useful reference(s) on such results with only pure nickel and hydrogen?
@ teslaalset & All
Chemalloy I believe it's called could be used indefinitely to provide Hydrogen to the system, never running out of a supply of Hydrogen to supply the reactor isn't a big problem, no need to get complicated. But the most remarkable discovery was when the metal was ground down to a fine powder. When powdered ChemAlloy was placed in water, it immediately began producing hydrogen and oxygen bubbles. Check this....
From: http://www.free-energy.ws/samuel-freedman.html
"This process continued until all of the water was gone! But like before, the metal itself remained inert and chemically unchanged."
So if you could provide Hydrogen to the system using water and Chemalloy the only thing left to resolve is the reactor ..
Regards,
Paul
@ All
Found another forum discussing ChemAlloy...
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1055061/pg2
I couldn't copy the thread link but here's the information...
"This is very old news
Chemalloy powderized to about 1,000,000 particles per pound exhibits the same elecritical properties (Fig. 2) as the solid rod. Here it generates slightly more than .5 volt, and in addition decomposes the water, liberating hydrogen.
Chemalloy splits H2O into HHO at ambient temperature, this alloy was made in the 1950's, a cell of powdered chemalloy was used to produce HHO non stop for 7 years with no visible oxidation of the alloy before the test was halted.
Here's more info from Keely.net
Chemaloy Smelting Process from Patent # 2,796,345 of June 18, 1957
In preparing the alloy of the present invention, the following metals and metal alloys are melted together in a crucible in the following proportions to provide the metallic ingredients:
Pounds
Yellow brass (30% zinc and 70% copper)---------------- 8
Aluminum -------------------------------------------- 8
40-60 solder (40% tin 60% lead) --------------------- 1.5
Silver (.1%) or -------------------------------------- .1
Nickel (.1%) --------------------------------------- .1
Zinc, to make up a 100 pound batch or -------------- 82.3
-----------
100.0
The chemical ingredients are next prepared in approximately the following proportions, for a 100 pound batch of the above metal ingredients:
Powdered copper slag ---------------pounds--------- 3.0
Yellow sulphur ----------------------do------------ 1.25
Willow charcoal ---------------------do------------ 0.75
Commercial muriatic acid ----------gallons--------- 0.50
The chemical ingredients are mixed together thoroughly and the acid added and stirred into the dry ingredients until a thin or watery paste-like mass is produced.
Meanwhile, the metal ingredients in the crucible have been heated until they reach the temperature of approximately 1450º F. and a layer of fine grain powdered charcoal of approximately a half-inch thickness is deposited on top of the molten metal to form an insulating blanket. When this charcoal layer has become red in color, the wet mass of chemical ingredients is deposited entirely over the top of the charcoal blanket in a thick layer. Using a suitable pushing device, such as a metal rod, the chemical mass is forced down through the charcoal blanket into the molten metal mixture, a small area at a time. The charcoal blanket shields the remainder of the mass from explosion or excessive reaction.
As the chemical mass is pushed into the molten metal mixture in the crucible, a multitude of tiny reactions occurs throughout it, instead of a single large explosion, due to the fact that the chemical particles are separated from one another by the porous inert slag and by the particles of charcoal.
As each portion which has been pushed down into the molten mixture is absorbed into the latter, another portion is pushed down and so on, until each portion of the chemical mass or layer has been pushed through the insulating charcoal blanket, a small area at a time.
After all of the wet chemical mass has been pushed downward into the molten metal mixture in the crucible, the entire mixture is stirred thoroughly to release all of the chemicals from the pores of the copper slag and to cause the tiny reactions and the explosions to be completed. When this has been done, and the slag has lost its chemical impregnations by these reactions and minute explosions, the slag floats to the surface of the molten metal mixture, along with other impurities or superfluous materials, these being skimmed from the surface of the molten mixture, leaving the latter in its finished state. The chemically-impregnated alloy thus formed is then poured out and formed into suitable shapes such as rods, bars or ingots.
During the period in which the chemical ingredients are being pushed downward through the charcoal blanket into the molten metal mixture, corrosive fumes are emitted which must be carefully disposed of or they will discolor paint, corrode ferrous metals, and cause annoyance to persons in the vicinity. After the alloy has been made in the above manner, however, it may be subsequently remelted without the formation of such fumes. The chemically-impregnated alloy remaining after the process has been completed is a finely homogenized, high quality alloy which is easily machined, plated or painted, as desired.
The present process also enables the combining of zinc and lead in an alloy, even though these metals are normally incompatible. For example, only one-half of one percent of lead in a zinc based die, such as is used in aircraft production, causes the die to crack during use, because lead will not ordinarily mix with zinc satisfactorily.
The copper slag mentioned in the foregoing process is the waste slag produced in copper smelting plants, and is useful because of its porosity and inert characteristics. It will be obvious that other porous materials which are similarly inert may also be employed to subdivide the chemical ingredients in the above manner and thereby convert an otherwise dangerous single explosion into a multitude of tiny harmless explosions and reactions.
The chemical ingredients thus incorporated into the metal alloy impart to the alloy the capability of flowing naturally and easily by capillary attraction when the alloy is applied to the junction of metal parts, such as aluminum to be united, without the previous use of a flux. Hitherto, it has been necessary to apply a flux in order to form a flux path at the junction of the metal parts to be united, or otherwise the welding metal does not flow well, and does not easily enter the junction between the metal parts to be united.
The proportions, and indeed, the components of the metallic mixture are not critical and many variations may be used. In place of the brass, pure copper or even bronze can be employed, more copper giving greater strength. The nickel and silver components are mere traces which produce better uniting of the metal components with one another. The chemical components of the alloy enable the alloy to penetrate the oxide film on aluminum without wire brushing or other previous preparation and to penetrate the crack or other junction between the parts to be united and to emerge on the opposite side thereof.
Proof that the chemical ingredients remain in the alloy is found in the fact that shavings of the alloy placed in a glass of ordinary tap water cause the flow of an electric current which may be detected by a voltmeter, milliampmeter or cathode ray oscilloscope when leads or electrodes connected thereto are inserted in the water. Moreover when the alloy particles or shavings have been permitted to remain in the water for several hours, gas bubbles will emerge from the water and form on the surface. Each of these bubbles explodes upon the application of a match, showing that chemicals in the alloy shavings produce hydrogen and other gases when placed in water. A still more powerful effect is obtained when salt water is used. Moreover, if the alloy is prepared in the form of a powder, this powder tends to come to the surface of the water and float thereon even though its specific gravity or weight is nearly seven times that of water."
Regards,
Paul
@ All
That's interesting.
A few years ago a Google search would've shown a supplier for ChemAlloy,
I just tried and didn't see any company who supplies this material!
Anyone know of a supplier of this material?
Regards,
Paul
Quote from: teslaalset on November 14, 2011, 04:50:57 PM
Any useful reference(s) on such results with only pure nickel and hydrogen?
From several links on page 17
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf
Quote from: Goat on November 14, 2011, 07:00:52 PM
Chemalloy I believe it's called could be used indefinitely to provide Hydrogen to the system, never running out of a supply of Hydrogen to supply the reactor isn't a big problem, no need to get complicated. But the most remarkable discovery was when the metal was ground down to a fine powder. When powdered ChemAlloy was placed in water, it immediately began producing hydrogen and oxygen bubbles.
Paul,
It's interesting stuff, but Rossi's method needs quite high presurized hydrogen (50 bar was mentioned).
From what I derive is that the reactor works with an optimized pressure/temperature combination, which seems essential.
I am not sure ChemAlloy is able to build up such pressure.
Quote from: lumen on November 14, 2011, 11:54:15 PM
From several links on page 17
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf
Thanks for the link Lumen.
Focardi, as research member of the research project is also part of Rossi's development team.
That makes the paper a bit biased in my view.
But it's better than nothing comparable.
Quote from: Rafa12 on November 14, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
any idea about how much it could cost the home edition?
good question...
@Chess, you seem the most knowledgeable on the topic... do you know when/if a home edition will be made?
Quote from: Rafa12 on November 14, 2011, 06:33:43 PM
any idea about how much it could cost the home edition?
Here's a first indication of a home version:
http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/5kW_Heater/index.html
Rossi indicated that once mass production has been reached, cost price could be around $500 / KW.
(source: http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Technology/FAQ/index.html )
Hi All,
Can anyone tell me if they're having difficulties with this post box falling off the page? I have to use
the computer screen as a guide to the margin as the box seems to be plus minus a mile wide.
I've been trying to alert the media but it seems that they're not prepared to publish. Frankly I don't
think its a news embargo as much as a lack of confidence in reporting on things scientific.
It seems that Rossi has asked Peswiki to remove their link. Not sure why.
He surely must have realised the level of interest that would result from that launch. But the good thing
is that there is this level of interest.
Here's a link to the video on this early launch with apologies if this has already been posted here.
Kindest regards
Rosemary
http://www.ecat.com/
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 15, 2011, 10:08:10 AM
Hi All,
Can anyone tell me if they're having difficulties with this post box falling off the page? I have to use
the computer screen as a guide to the margin as the box seems to be plus minus a mile wide.
I've been trying to alert the media but it seems that they're not prepared to publish. Frankly I don't
think its a news embargo as much as a lack of confidence in reporting on things scientific.
It seems that Rossi has asked Peswiki to remove their link. Not sure why.
He surely must have realised the level of interest that would result from that launch. But the good thing
is that there is this level of interest.
Here's a link to the video on this early launch with apologies if this has already been posted here.
Kindest regards
Rosemary
http://www.ecat.com/ (http://www.ecat.com/)
@Rosemary:
I am not having any problems with screen width but I'm sorry to hear you are. Maybe you could post some feedback on Stefan's thread where he announced his new software upgrade. He said to post any problems there.
I am so happy to see all of the traffic here. Now this is more like it. The thread is starting to come alive. I thank all the newcomers for participating in this topic about Rossi and his E-Cat.
A big thanks to everyone who suggested starting a new poll to reflect the current take on this HUGE energy breakthrough. So far, it appears the believers have an overwhelming lead over the skeptics. This is a very positive change.
It's going to be great to see the replications unfold as the story begins to breach the mainstream media.
Kind regards,
Chess
Competition from Defkalion. Announcement within 2 weeks: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/news (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/news)
Quote from: tomd000 on November 15, 2011, 09:42:11 PM
Competition from Defkalion. Announcement within 2 weeks: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/news (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/news)
True competition is a wonderful thing because it leads to more reasonable pricing and most importantly it prevents monopolies.
Rossi had said in an earlier press release that Defkalion never had his complete working technology so this news gives Defkalion a chance to respond with a third party test/demonstration of their own.
I just finished reading the press release (in .PDF format) myself and saw a picture of the product they have developed. Very interesting news.
Thanks Tom.
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 15, 2011, 11:01:51 PM
True competition is a wonderful thing because it leads to more reasonable pricing and most importantly it prevents monopolies.
Rossi had said in an earlier press release that Defkalion never had his complete working technology so this news gives Defkalion a chance to respond with a third party test/demonstration of their own.
I just finished reading the press release (in .PDF format) myself and saw a picture of the product they have developed. Very interesting news.
Thanks Tom.
Chess
Hello Chess,
You may want to check out that link you gave. It seems to be for a car ad. Was that intended?
I hope this wont offend anyone - but I'm plugging my own blogspot link to explain why I'm this interested in cold fusion. And I'm not trying to piggy back a ride on all this interest. The fact is that we do NOT claim to have found anything new. It's just that we propose that cold fusion may be all that 'dark energy' which has already been proven and is part of mainstream thinking - albeit on the outskirts. ;D
In any event - it's our own poor efforts at explaining what otherwise has no explanation.
Kindest regards
Rosemary
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 15, 2011, 11:39:00 PM
Hello Chess,
You may want to check out that link you gave. It seems to be for a car ad. Was that intended?
I hope this wont offend anyone - but I'm plugging my own blogspot link to explain why I'm this interested in cold fusion. And I'm not trying to piggy back a ride on all this interest. The fact is that we do NOT claim to have found anything new. It's just that we propose that cold fusion may be all that 'dark energy' which has already been proven and is part of mainstream thinking - albeit on the outskirts. ;D
In any event - it's our own poor efforts at explaining what otherwise has no explanation.
Kindest regards
Rosemary
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/ (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/)
Hi Rosemary,
The link from my previous post was encased in a quote from Tomd000. Now that link leads me to the press release from Defkalion. From that link, you can download the latest press release in .PDF format. I've had no problems with the link. If anyone also has problems with that link, please let me know.
Nice article, by the way Rosemary.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 16, 2011, 12:29:00 AM
Hi Rosemary,
The link from my previous post was encased in a quote from Tomd000. Now that link leads me to the press release from Defkalion. From that link, you can download the latest press release in .PDF format. I've had no problems with the link. If anyone also has problems with that link, please let me know.
Nice article, by the way Rosemary.
Best regards,
Chess
Thanks Chess. All comes up as it should. And take good care there Chess. Your efforts in this project are much appreciated by us all.
Kindest and best
R
Thank you for this update Chess, we are all eyes here. Great news on the front yet again. So many ideas are producing now it is hard to find time for them all (but I will force myself a bit to keep up, lol). Any links that sell ChemAlloy found, please post them. Thank you
Richard
Quote from: Hope on November 16, 2011, 01:19:43 PM
... Any links that sell ChemAlloy found, please post them. Thank you...
Did a quick search and found this thread -
http://oupower.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=290 (http://oupower.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=290)
Which contains references to this company -
http://www.durafix.com/ (http://www.durafix.com/)
They sell welding rods that are a kind of chemalloy.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 15, 2011, 10:08:10 AM
It seems that Rossi has asked Peswiki to remove their link. Not sure why.
He surely must have realised the level of interest that would result from that launch. But the good thing
is that there is this level of interest.
@Rosemary:
Sterling Allan goes into detail for the first time since the launch and subsequent request to remove the "Official Rossi E-cat Website". It's a good sized story so I just posted a link to it below.
link:
http://pesn.com/2011/11/15/9601957_Sterling_Allan_on_the_up_and_down_of_Rossis_approval_of_Leonardo-ECat.com/ (http://pesn.com/2011/11/15/9601957_Sterling_Allan_on_the_up_and_down_of_Rossis_approval_of_Leonardo-ECat.com/)
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 16, 2011, 10:47:32 PM
@Rosemary:
Sterling Allan goes into detail for the first time since the launch and subsequent request to remove the "Official Rossi E-cat Website". It's a good sized story so I just posted a link to it below.
link:
http://pesn.com/2011/11/15/9601957_Sterling_Allan_on_the_up_and_down_of_Rossis_approval_of_Leonardo-ECat.com/ (http://pesn.com/2011/11/15/9601957_Sterling_Allan_on_the_up_and_down_of_Rossis_approval_of_Leonardo-ECat.com/)
Best regards,
Chess
Hello Chess,
Thanks very much for that link. It explains a lot - but my concerns remain. Do you think that Rossi wants any publicity at all - until his first unit is up and running and finally contracted? I get the distinct impression that publicity is the least of his interests. Which is a good thing. God knows how Peswiki subscribers' interest in this is likely to plague him with distractions.
There's a golden rule to all these claims. If you can show experimental evidence of a gain - then the claim is in the bag. And what Rossi has is a gain at absurdly heavy duty deliveries. Which information, courtesy the hard efforts of Sterling - is now available to us all. However. Rossi is likely to be hounded with interest - on both sides of the argument - and I suspect that this will probably take up too much of his valuable time and it will possibly also be time wasted.
Also, bear in mind that even on this forum - there are the early detractors and murmurers. I don't even have the appetite to give the link. I am well aware of the efficacy of our trolls. I've had the unhappy first hand experience of their skills. It's toxic but effective. The trick is to snarl the argument in allegations that will attack anything they can get hold of. Right now it's an attack against his integrity which is hardly of any interest at all - in any context. As is typical it is all managed with a liberal reference to unsubstantiated allegations delivered with simulated sense of moral outrage. These people could earn themselves Oscars.
It's a bumpy road ahead. I see it so clearly. But here's the good news and we need to keep focused on it. There is an workable prototype - which has been demonstrated publicly. And regardless of the evidence or not of any emissions - that's actually all that matters. Regarding the existence or otherwise of emissions - this is not proof that the technology does not work. Just that our academics will need to eat humble pie while the work out HOW it works. Good heavens. There are surely still some academics who feel shy when they flaunt their opinions irrespective of experimental evidence. What has happened to the integrity of our scientists? It's floundering.
It will be a miracle of some considerable dimension - that will allow all this an easy passage.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
And at the risk of boring you all to death - I've got more about this on my blogsite. Please do read there - especially if you're among those that voted 'against' the truth of this technology. You may yet change your minds. I'm afraid I'm plugging this somewhat shamelessly. But there's lots needs saying and I'm doing my best here.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/
"The home heating unit will require a connection to a source of input power" - http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/5kW_Heater/index.html
Why is this just a heating device? and not an actual power source? :(
Ok, cool, I can get very very cheap hot showers.... but.. really.. i would prefer very very cheap (free?) electricity...
am i missing something?
Quote from: Poit on November 17, 2011, 05:13:18 AM
"The home heating unit will require a connection to a source of input power" - http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/5kW_Heater/index.html (http://www.leonardo-ecat.com/fp/Products/5kW_Heater/index.html)
Why is this just a heating device? and not an actual power source? :(
Ok, cool, I can get very very cheap hot showers.... but.. really.. i would prefer very very cheap (free?) electricity...
am i missing something?
You probably have a common OU shop around the corner.
Others don't.
Here's a marvelous opportunity for you......
Quote from: teslaalset on November 17, 2011, 06:38:02 AM
You probably have a common OU shop around the corner.
Other don't.
Here's a marvelous opportunity for you......
what does that mean? I don't think you understand my question. Let me rephrase it.
Wouldn't it be better to have a unit that generates electricity than just heated water? i.e integrate a steam turbine or something of the likes into the system. That way you can have electricity for the house, which is far more useful than just hot water.
Quote from: Poit on November 17, 2011, 07:50:16 AM
what does that mean? I don't think you understand my question. Let me rephrase it.
Wouldn't it be better to have a unit that generates electricity than just heated water? i.e integrate a steam turbine or something of the likes into the system. That way you can have electricity for the house, which is far more useful than just hot water.
Let me put your desire in another perspective.
25 years ago the first steps of the internet were happening.
Did you see anybody nag about the fact that nobody was yet able to buy shoes from e-bay at that time?
These things require time and money to develop.
Rossi has invested all of his private capital (even sold his house).
At some moment of time he needs to earn some money to proceed with next generation products.
This is obviously the reason why he's offering first generation units at this stage.
Once that ball is rolling other features will be added, like producing electricity e.g. by adding a stirling engine.
This will take at least a few years and several tens of millions of Euros/Dollars.
Rossi will require serious investers and/or serious licensees to be able to realize any next steps.
Here's where your oportunities are....
Quote from: teslaalset on November 17, 2011, 08:37:41 AM
Let me put your desire in another perspective.
25 years ago the first steps of the internet were happening.
Did you see anybody nag about the fact that nobody was yet able to buy shoes from e-bay at that time?
These things require time and money to develop.
Rossi has invested all of his private capital (even sold his house).
At some moment of time he needs to earn some money to proceed with next generation products.
This is obviously the reason why he's offering first generation units at this stage.
Once that ball is rolling other features will be added, like producing electricity e.g. by adding a stirling engine.
This will take at least a few years and several tens of millions of Euros/Dollars.
Rossi will require serious investers and/or serious licensees to be able to realize any next steps.
Here's where your oportunities are....
fair enough. I just figured that stirling engines and the sort were the least of his worries, since there has been a world wide effort of 'trial and error' when it comes to the technology of it, so I would think that adding a stirling engine to his "heater" (for lack of better words) wouldn't be an issue. It probably is not an issue, but like you said, he needs to get phase one going first. I understand.
@Rosemary:
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 17, 2011, 12:19:51 AM
Thanks very much for that link. It explains a lot - but my concerns remain. Do you think that Rossi wants any publicity at all - until his first unit is up and running and finally contracted? I get the distinct impression that publicity is the least of his interests. Which is a good thing. God knows how Peswiki subscribers' interest in this is likely to plague him with distractions.
I believe he wanted all the publicity he could get in the beginning, which he might have believed would lead to a long line of customers for his devices. At this point, I do not believe he really cares about publicity one way or the other because the word is already getting around about his discovery without him spending any more of his own money towards it.
I think his focus now is geared almost entirely on creating a business model and taking orders from additional customers. He is simply setting up and running his business now. He realizes that the only people he is absolutely going to have to convince and prove his technology to is paying customers. Every time he demonstrates his technology to a potential customer (in a private setting or not) and sells a unit, he gets paid and that's what gives his company growth and momentum (as well enabling him to pay his bills).
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 17, 2011, 12:19:51 AM
Also, bear in mind that even on this forum - there are the early detractors and murmurers. I don't even have the appetite to give the link. I am well aware of the efficacy of our trolls. I've had the unhappy first hand experience of their skills. It's toxic but effective. The trick is to snarl the argument in allegations that will attack anything they can get hold of. Right now it's an attack against his integrity which is hardly of any interest at all - in any context. As is typical it is all managed with a liberal reference to unsubstantiated allegations delivered with simulated sense of moral outrage. These people could earn themselves Oscars.
I agree. Very well put. Whenever we suspect troll activity on this thread, we could always refer them to reply #263, paragraph 9 ;D
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 17, 2011, 12:19:51 AM
It's a bumpy road ahead. I see it so clearly. But here's the good news and we need to keep focused on it. There is an workable prototype - which has been demonstrated publicly. And regardless of the evidence or not of any emissions - that's actually all that matters. Regarding the existence or otherwise of emissions - this is not proof that the technology does not work. Just that our academics will need to eat humble pie while the work out HOW it works. Good heavens. There are surely still some academics who feel shy when they flaunt their opinions irrespective of experimental evidence. What has happened to the integrity of our scientists? It's floundering.
I suspect that the so-called "laws" that are cemented into the heads of scientists and engineers while they are obtaining their degrees prohibits them from even attempting to think outside the box. One reply that comes to mind was made by BEP from this site. He once said, "
As I sit this early morning, with my first cup of java, I can only compare your thoughts [he's replying to a skeptic]
to one thing: In the kitchen we have a squawking cock-a-til. The same song every morning - the same useless rant and repetition of the song yesterday and before. He sets in his cage, squawks, eats, defecates... Nothing will ever happen for him unless he gets out. I'm sure for him almost nothing exists outside of his cage. Question what you've been taught. Question the obvious. You might find a way out of that cage someday." -- BEP
Best regards,
Chess
Hello Chess,
I took the trouble to find that post. Very well put - indeed.
Quote from: lwh on November 11, 2011, 05:24:00 PM
Another reason for the lack of input to the thread is that once the habitually, unreasonably skeptical among us are presented with unavoidable facts and test results, the only recourse is to either have a hissy-fit and engage in personal attacks, as if that will somehow discredit the technology, or disengage from the subject altogether, moving on to some other subject that can be used as a vehicle for expressing what just adds up to low self-esteem.
.....
Anyway, that's enough from me. All I really wanted to say was, thanks for keeping us up to date, some of us are actually interested in these developments, but just don't have anything productive/constructive to add to the subject.
Thanks Chess - for everything
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
ECAT Home products will be available in 2013.
http://ecat.com/ecat-questions/when-will-the-ecat-be-available
.
Quote from: Groundloop on November 18, 2011, 09:45:11 AM
ECAT Home products will be available in 2013.
http://ecat.com/ecat-questions/when-will-the-ecat-be-available (http://ecat.com/ecat-questions/when-will-the-ecat-be-available)
.
@Groundloop:
Great news just keeps pouring in. Rossi's original estimated release date for the home unit was 2015 so this is definitely a pleasant surprise.
At this same link you posted, it also gave the lead time for the 1 megawatt unit. The estimated DELIVERY time is 3 months!
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 18, 2011, 11:12:01 PM
@Groundloop:
Great news just keeps pouring in. Rossi's original estimated release date for the home unit was 2015 so this is definitely a pleasant surprise.
At this same link you posted, it also gave the lead time for the 1 megawatt unit. The estimated DELIVERY time is 3 months!
Regards,
Chess
Hello Chess,
I've also got a small contribution. Mainly thanks to a link from Groundloop's link. I'm now a subscriber and listed myself as a potential investor. lol. I fell into the <$100 000.00. Fortunately they don't specify how much less. ;D
Here's that link.
http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi (http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi)
If it's already been referenced - apologies. But it's a fascinating read - and at the conclusion - a 'must see' video. Such impeccable impartiality. And nice to see that Rossi's strong enough to tackle both sides of the argument as well as confront all the prejudice. What a courageous man.
All the best to you and to everyone. Life seems well worth living at the moment.
Rosemary
Not edited. I'm just adding this.
Here, again is my blog update. Apologies for this apparent 'self promotion' but the news is all good.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/11/194-dark-energy-story-thats-still.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/11/194-dark-energy-story-thats-still.html)
More news regarding Defkalion:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tovima.gr%2Fscience%2Farticle%2F%3Faid%3D430840 (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tovima.gr%2Fscience%2Farticle%2F%3Faid%3D430840)
The Takeaways:
"We not only continue our program and we are almost ready, with technology that precedes that of Rossi during a year."
"However, the main and big difference in our device than that of Rossi is that our system is stable in performance, while that of Rossi or the last test failed to yield stable for more than five and a half hours. "
"The technology will present a few days the world will be entirely Greek and appreciate its contribution to the overthrow of what exists in the energy market. "
If they are 12 months ahead of Rossi and they also mention overthrowing the energy market, then they are probably able to generate electricity. Now that's going to make a lot of people sit up and take notice.
Quote from: tomd000 on November 20, 2011, 08:56:25 AM
More news regarding Defkalion:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tovima.gr%2Fscience%2Farticle%2F%3Faid%3D430840 (http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=el&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tovima.gr%2Fscience%2Farticle%2F%3Faid%3D430840)
The Takeaways:
"We not only continue our program and we are almost ready, with technology that precedes that of Rossi during a year."
"However, the main and big difference in our device than that of Rossi is that our system is stable in performance, while that of Rossi or the last test failed to yield stable for more than five and a half hours. "
"The technology will present a few days the world will be entirely Greek and appreciate its contribution to the overthrow of what exists in the energy market. "
If they are 12 months ahead of Rossi and they also mention overthrowing the energy market, then they are probably able to generate electricity. Now that's going to make a lot of people sit up and take notice.
Hello Tom,
I could not make sense of that article. Not a good translation and I'm too much of a literalist to get what's being said. Is there any more about this? I get it that they're claiming Rossi stole their own technology? I wonder if we're seeing the start of some healthy competition. I do hope so.
Actually - here a question for chess. What happens when two parties claim a discovery of something and then both try to patent it? I suppose Italy will favour Italian patents and Greece - Greek patents. But what about those international rights/ Golly.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 20, 2011, 11:52:49 PM
Hello Tom,
I could not make sense of that article. Not a good translation and I'm too much of a literalist to get what's being said. Is there any more about this? I get it that they're claiming Rossi stole their own technology? I wonder if we're seeing the start of some healthy competition. I do hope so.
Actually - here a question for chess. What happens when two parties claim a discovery of something and then both try to patent it? I suppose Italy will favour Italian patents and Greece - Greek patents. But what about those international rights/ Golly.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
I just skimmed through it and picked out a few pertinent paragraphs relating to Defkalion.
However here is a copy of parts of the article with comments:- http://ecatnews.com/?p=1368 (http://ecatnews.com/?p=1368)s
It appears that Piantelli may also be involved:- http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=508 (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=508)
Guys,
I've been hounding one of our editors of our local rag to make this news public. We engaged in a welter of correspondence and the conclusion? The sweet guy has now given me permission to tell this story and - hopefully - he'll then edit and publish it.
So. Here's hoping. When I've finished the article I'll post it here. Then I'll send it on. Who knows. Our public may yet be informed.
;D
I'll need to try and write it with some pretense at impartiality. LOL.
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 21, 2011, 10:24:08 AM
Guys,
I've been hounding one of our editors of our local rag to make this news public. We engaged in a welter of correspondence and the conclusion? The sweet guy has now given me permission to tell this story and - hopefully - he'll then edit and publish it.
So. Here's hoping. When I've finished the article I'll post it here. Then I'll send it on. Who knows. Our public may yet be informed.
;D
I'll need to try and write it with some pretense at impartiality. LOL.
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
We would all love to see the article you are having published for a newspaper. We’ll be looking forward to it. Hopefully the mainstream media will pick up the story soon but the big networks won’t touch it as of yet. My realistic hopes are that 60 minutes will run with it and do a full length expose on it. They’ve aired shows on cold fusion and other exotic energy technologies before so it’s definitely their forte.
Most of the people I work with get their news from non-mainstream sources such as democracynow.org and pesn.com. It seems as though the public is now starting to distrust the mainstream press in general because of their selective and limited coverage of what they consider newsworthy. People also enjoy online sources for other reasons as well such as the ability to choose which stories they want to hear, not have to pay a fee (like a newspaper charges) and watch without having to sit through ANY commercials.
Concerning the patent issues; I’m not 100% certain but I believe the first to file is the one awarded the patent. At least here in the U.S. Rossi could lose out in his U.S. patent application filing to Defkalion. The reason for this is because Rossi refused to disclose his “secret†catalyst which actually weakens his protection. By not disclosing key pieces of his technology, it leaves room for others (say Defkalion) to waltz right in and disclose this in their patent application which could turn Rossi into the infringer of their patent. This was a tremendous blunder on Rossi’s part.
Best regards,
Chess
Thanks Chess.
Here's my first draft. Please correct - amend - whatever. I'd be sorry to send this on with wrong statements. And I'd welcome your input.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
COLD FUSION â€" OR A NEW FORCE UNFOLDING?
On the 8th of August, an Italian company headed by a Mr Andrea Rossi, held a demonstration of a technology that, if it works as claimed, will produce more heat than the fuel that is used to generate that heat. In effect Rossi is able to generate robust levels of energy measured in the 10’s and even 100’s of Kilowatts â€" at the cost of a small initialising input measured at a little over 1 Kilowatt. What was shown is that heat was applied to the reactor for about half an hour to reach a temperature of about 170 degrees centigrade. Thereafter some operating process ‘kicked in’ and the system ran itself.
This extraordinary claim flies in the face of Thermodynamic Laws unless it can somehow be attributed to the nuclear force. For those of us who remember the event â€" it is similar to the claims of Cold Fusion that were advanced by Fleischmann and Pons. They too repeatedly demonstrated experiments that measured this same extraordinary heat signature in an interaction of heavy water (a water molecule comprising deuterium) and palladium. Rossi uses the more accessible materials of nickel and hydrogen and some catalyst that has not yet been disclosed. The only way, within our standard model, that this amount of energy surplus can be explained is in terms of nuclear processes. But to prove that some kind of fusion was occurring there was also the required proof of ‘emissions’ â€" those radioactive waste materials that are the signature proof of a nuclear interaction. This was sorely lacking and it was precisely this lack that buried both the claims of Cold Fusion and the good names of both Professor Fleischmann and Dr Pons. Ironically, it is also precisely this lack of a toxic waste product that makes this energy technology so desirable.
The difference between Fleishmann and Pons and Andrea Rossi is that Rossi has taken this to the level of a working, saleable and patented product in units that can be ‘containerised’ and shipped anywhere in the world. And these units are designed to deliver 10’s and even 100’s of Kilowatts. The other glaring difference is that Rossi took the precaution of inviting only that public that was qualified to evaluate the measured energy surplus. It included Professors Sergio Focardi, Emilio Del Giudice, Francesco Celeni, Christos Stremmenos and Dr Guiliano Preparata, all of whom are experts in the field. They have all publicly accredited these results that support the claims of efficiency but none of them are able to explain the process, as the measured emissions do not fall in line with what is expected in a nuclear process. It is interesting to see that some highly reputable scientists, including Nobel Laureate Emeritus Professor Brian Josephsson, are speaking out in support of the ‘cold fusion’ results â€" regardless of the theoretical constructs required for this.
All of which means that, yet again, our theory may lag the experimental evidence. Perhaps there are new forces that are emerging â€" a new science in the making. But whatever the explanation, this certainly promises a potential and welcome freedom to all energy users from the gridlocked relationship with our utility monopolists. Nor are there the toxic waste products associated with nuclear energy production. And most significantly, it will also resolve the escalating problems associated with global pollution resulting from our use of fossil fuels. As it’s described in the official link to Rossi’s work - this may be a revolution in the making.
http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi (http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi)
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 21, 2011, 10:03:34 PM
Thanks Chess.
Here's my first draft. Please correct - amend - whatever. I'd be sorry to send this on with wrong statements. And I'd welcome your input.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
COLD FUSION â€" OR A NEW FORCE UNFOLDING?
On the 8th of August, an Italian company headed by a Mr Andrea Rossi, held a demonstration of a technology that, if it works as claimed, will produce more heat than the fuel that is used to generate that heat. In effect Rossi is able to generate robust levels of energy measured in the 10’s and even 100’s of Kilowatts â€" at the cost of a small initialising input measured at a little over 1 Kilowatt. What was shown is that heat was applied to the reactor for about half an hour to reach a temperature of about 170 degrees centigrade. Thereafter some operating process ‘kicked in’ and the system ran itself.
This extraordinary claim flies in the face of Thermodynamic Laws unless it can somehow be attributed to the nuclear force. For those of us who remember the event â€" it is similar to the claims of Cold Fusion that were advanced by Fleischmann and Pons. They too repeatedly demonstrated experiments that measured this same extraordinary heat signature in an interaction of heavy water (a water molecule comprising deuterium) and palladium. Rossi uses the more accessible materials of nickel and hydrogen and some catalyst that has not yet been disclosed. The only way, within our standard model, that this amount of energy surplus can be explained is in terms of nuclear processes. But to prove that some kind of fusion was occurring there was also the required proof of ‘emissions’ â€" those radioactive waste materials that are the signature proof of a nuclear interaction. This was sorely lacking and it was precisely this lack that buried both the claims of Cold Fusion and the good names of both Professor Fleischmann and Dr Pons. Ironically, it is also precisely this lack of a toxic waste product that makes this energy technology so desirable.
The difference between Fleishmann and Pons and Andrea Rossi is that Rossi has taken this to the level of a working, saleable and patented product in units that can be ‘containerised’ and shipped anywhere in the world. And these units are designed to deliver 10’s and even 100’s of Kilowatts. The other glaring difference is that Rossi took the precaution of inviting only that public that was qualified to evaluate the measured energy surplus. It included Professors Sergio Focardi, Emilio Del Giudice, Francesco Celeni, Christos Stremmenos and Dr Guiliano Preparata, all of whom are experts in the field. They have all publicly accredited these results that support the claims of efficiency but none of them are able to explain the process, as the measured emissions do not fall in line with what is expected in a nuclear process. It is interesting to see that some highly reputable scientists, including Nobel Laureate Emeritus Professor Brian Josephsson, are speaking out in support of the ‘cold fusion’ results â€" regardless of the theoretical constructs required for this.
All of which means that, yet again, our theory may lag the experimental evidence. Perhaps there are new forces that are emerging â€" a new science in the making. But whatever the explanation, this certainly promises a potential and welcome freedom to all energy users from the gridlocked relationship with our utility monopolists. Nor are there the toxic waste products associated with nuclear energy production. And most significantly, it will also resolve the escalating problems associated with global pollution resulting from our use of fossil fuels. As it’s described in the official link to Rossi’s work - this may be a revolution in the making.
http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi (http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi)
Splendid article, Rosemary. Your journalistic talents really shine through on this one. That is what we need headlined across every major newspaper around the globe. Kudos, Chess
Thanks Chess. But Guys, everyone - if there are incorrect facts that you see - PLEASE ADVISE.
If I don't hear anything I'll send this along - in about five hours from now. Fingers crossed that our editor doesn't 'edit' this out of mind.
What fun.
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 21, 2011, 10:38:39 PM
Thanks Chess. But Guys, everyone - if there are incorrect facts that you see - PLEASE ADVISE.
If I don't hear anything I'll send this along - in about five hours from now. Fingers crossed that our editor doesn't 'edit' this out of mind.
What fun.
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
The only thing I saw that I could not confirm was the August 8th testing date. I remember test dates in October but not all the way back to August.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 21, 2011, 10:42:01 PM
@Rosemary:
The only thing I saw that I could not confirm was the August 8th testing date. I remember test dates in October but not all the way back to August.
Regards,
Chess
Was it November the 8th? I can't access that link at the moment.
Thanks Chess
R
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 21, 2011, 10:44:57 PM
Was it November the 8th? I can't access that link at the moment.
Thanks Chess
R
@Rosemary:
The first public demonstration of the technology was on January 14th, 2011, according to PESN.COM. The following is a partial quote from their website followed by the link to their page:
"Last Friday, January 14, we reported (http://pesn.com/2011/01/14/9501743_10_kW_nickel_hydrogen_cold_fusion_demo_coming_January_15_in_Italy/) about a press conference held in Bologna, Italy in which Professor Sergio Focardi and Eng. Andrea A. Rossi, both of the University of Bologna, announced to the world that they have a cold fusion device capable of producing more than 10 kilowatts of heat power, while only consuming a fraction of that. This is the first public demonstration of a nickel-hydrogen fusion reactor capable of producing a few kilowatts of thermal energy. At its peak, it is capable (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360&cpage=1#comment-19118) of generating 15,000 watts with just 400 watts input required. On Saturday, a forum (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360) was opened allowing for questions online from around the world." -- http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_Focardi-Rossi_10_kW_cold_fusion_prepping_for_market/ (http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_Focardi-Rossi_10_kW_cold_fusion_prepping_for_market/)
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 21, 2011, 10:59:08 PM
@Rosemary:
The first public demonstration of the technology was on January 14th, 2011, according to PESN.COM. The following is a partial quote from their website followed by the link to their page:
"Last Friday, January 14, we reported (http://pesn.com/2011/01/14/9501743_10_kW_nickel_hydrogen_cold_fusion_demo_coming_January_15_in_Italy/) about a press conference held in Bologna, Italy in which Professor Sergio Focardi and Eng. Andrea A. Rossi, both of the University of Bologna, announced to the world that they have a cold fusion device capable of producing more than 10 kilowatts of heat power, while only consuming a fraction of that. This is the first public demonstration of a nickel-hydrogen fusion reactor capable of producing a few kilowatts of thermal energy. At its peak, it is capable (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360&cpage=1#comment-19118) of generating 15,000 watts with just 400 watts input required. On Saturday, a forum (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=360) was opened allowing for questions online from around the world." -- http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_Focardi-Rossi_10_kW_cold_fusion_prepping_for_market/ (http://pesn.com/2011/01/17/9501746_Focardi-Rossi_10_kW_cold_fusion_prepping_for_market/)
Best regards,
Chess
Thanks Chess. I'll just amend the article without an actual date reference. Then I'll repost it here. Hopefully that'll answer the problem. I've already changed the opening para to edit out some repetitious statements related to wattage.
many thanks again, and take care of yourself.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Ok Chess, Guys, - here's the final effort. Cross fingers it's published.
Kindest as ever,
R
COLD FUSION â€" OR A NEW FORCE UNFOLDING?
This year heralds the possibility of a solution to our global energy requirements and pollution concerns. An Italian company headed by a Mr Andrea Rossi, has held a series of demonstrations of a technology that, if it works as claimed, will produce more heat than the fuel that is used to generate that heat. In effect Rossi is able to generate robust levels of energy measured in the Kilowatt range â€" at the cost of a small initialising electrical input. What was shown is that a current was applied to the reactor for about half an hour until it reached a temperature of about 170 degrees centigrade. Thereafter some operating process ‘kicked in’ and the system ran itself.
This extraordinary claim flies in the face of Thermodynamic Laws unless it can somehow be attributed to the nuclear force. For those of us who remember the event â€" it is similar to the claims of Cold Fusion that were advanced by Fleischmann and Pons. They too repeatedly demonstrated experiments that measured this same extraordinary heat signature in an interaction of heavy water (a water molecule comprising deuterium) and palladium. Rossi uses the more accessible materials of nickel and hydrogen and possibly some catalyst that has not yet been disclosed. The only way, within our standard model, that this amount of energy surplus can be explained is in terms of nuclear processes. But to prove that some kind of fusion was occurring there is also the required proof of ‘emissions’ â€" those radioactive waste materials that are the signature proof of a nuclear interaction. This was sorely lacking and it was precisely this lack that buried both the claims of Cold Fusion and the good names of both Professor Fleischmann and Dr Pons. Ironically, it is also precisely this lack of a toxic waste product that makes this energy technology so desirable.
The difference between Fleishmann and Pons and Andrea Rossi is that Rossi has taken this to the level of a working, saleable and patented product in units that can be ‘containerised’ and shipped anywhere in the world. And these units are designed to deliver 10’s and even 100’s of Kilowatts. The other glaring difference is that Rossi took the precaution of inviting only that public that was qualified to evaluate the measured energy surplus. It included Professors Sergio Focardi, Emilio Del Giudice, Francesco Celeni, Christos Stremmenos and Dr Guiliano Preparata, all of whom are experts in the field. They have all publicly accredited these results that support the claims of efficiency. But none of them are able to explain the process, as the measured emissions do not fall in line with what is expected in a nuclear process. It is interesting to see that some highly reputable scientists, including Nobel Laureate Emeritus Professor Brian Josephsson, are speaking out in support of the ‘cold fusion’ results â€" regardless of the theoretical constructs required for this.
All of which means that, yet again, our theory may lag the experimental evidence. Perhaps there are new forces that are emerging â€" a new science in the making. But whatever the explanation, this certainly promises a potential and welcome freedom to all energy users from the gridlocked relationship with our utility monopolists. Nor are there the toxic waste products associated with nuclear energy production. And most significantly, it will also resolve the escalating problems associated with global pollution resulting from our prodigal over use of fossil fuels. As it’s described in the official link to Rossi’s work - this may be a revolution in the making.
http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi (http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi)
Rosemary, you may want to mention the name of the process, "E-CAT" and explain the unfortunate "Cold Fusion" name being given to his as well as Pons and Fleischmann's device. It is a "L.E.N.R" Low Energy Nuclear Reaction.
Quote from: TEKTRON on November 21, 2011, 11:21:01 PM
Rosemary, you may want to mention the name of the process, "E-CAT" and explain the unfortunate "Cold Fusion" name being given to his as well as Pons and Fleischmann's device. It is a "L.E.N.R" Low Energy Nuclear Reaction.
Thanks TEKTRON. I'll try and fit it in. You're right I need to mention that it's called the E-CAT. But that LENR thing is just as debatable as cold fusion. If you check out the video and the comments - I think by Prof Stremmenos - any 'title' is a misnomer. They've yet to work out the physics. But I'll fit in that term as well.
It is my opinion that it's better to keep the explanation as ambiguous as it actually is. If you remember it was precisely this that killed off the respectability required for that Fleischmann Pons number. If it's acknowledged as 'anomalous' then that leaves the attention on the results. I can understand why Rossi is insisting on 'cold fusion' as he can't patent or publish without this. But, quite frankly - there is NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that it's a nuclear reaction. I don't care. I'm sure none of us do. We just want that technology up and running. And there's nothing ambiguous about those results. And whatever doubts about it's safety - these must have been ironed out or he would simply NOT be allowed to sell those units.
Just out of interest - and to share a concern - it may have been that he prevented that detailed analysis of the catalytic material precisely because there is no early or indeed, ANY evidence of copper. As has been mentioned - this may be a contaminant rather than a transmuted by product.
The proof of the pudding - in this case - will be in it's saleability. Hopefully it'll sell like hot cakes. But it's fairly important to us to get this to the media. Our own
utility monopolist - ESKOM - are negotiating behind closed doors to build 2 new nuclear plants just few 20 kilometers from where I live. I've got vested interests in promoting this knowledge. And I don't want it snarled in debates about the cause when they clearly do not yet have that 'cause'. Quite apart from which we're contending that he's actually using dark energy. It's a far more respectable argument - if and when they get around to it.
Kindest as ever
R
Edited. Quite funny actually. I wrote untility. It must be that subconscious thing where I was struggling to find the appropriate term. In our case - because our supplies are that fragile it's better described as 'atility'. ;D
;D I'm possibly taxing everyone's patience here in reprinting the entire thing. Bear with me. It's important. This - hopefully - answers TEKTRON's concerns. Here it is again. lol.
COLD FUSION â€" OR A NEW FORCE UNFOLDING?
This year heralds the possibility of a solution to our global energy requirements and pollution concerns. An Italian company headed by a Mr Andrea Rossi, has held a series of demonstrations of the E-CAT technology that, if it works as claimed, will produce more heat than the fuel that is used to generate that heat. In effect Rossi is able to generate robust levels of energy measured in the Kilowatt range â€" at the cost of a small initialising electrical input. What was shown is that a current was applied to the reactor for about half an hour until it reached a temperature of about 170 degrees centigrade. Thereafter some operating process ‘kicked in’ and the system ran itself.
This extraordinary claim flies in the face of Thermodynamic Laws unless it can somehow be attributed to the nuclear force. For those of us who remember the event â€" it is similar to the claims of Cold Fusion, now more widely referred to as low energy nuclear reactions (LENR) that were advanced by Fleischmann and Pons. They too repeatedly demonstrated experiments that measured this same extraordinary heat signature in an interaction of heavy water (a water molecule comprising deuterium) and palladium. Rossi uses the more accessible materials of nickel and hydrogen and possibly some catalyst that has not yet been disclosed. The only way, within our standard model, that this amount of energy surplus can be explained is in terms of nuclear processes. But to prove that some kind of fusion was occurring there is also the required proof of ‘emissions’ â€" those radioactive waste materials that are the signature proof of a nuclear interaction. This was sorely lacking and it was precisely this lack that buried both the claims of Cold Fusion and the good names of both Professor Fleischmann and Dr Pons. Ironically, it is also precisely this lack of a toxic waste product that makes this energy technology so desirable.
The difference between Fleishmann and Pons and Andrea Rossi is that Rossi has taken this to the level of a working, salable and patented product in units that can be ‘containerised’ and shipped anywhere in the world. And these units are designed to deliver 10’s and even 100’s of Kilowatts. The other glaring difference is that Rossi took the precaution of inviting only that public that was qualified to evaluate the measured energy surplus. It included Professors Sergio Focardi, Emilio Del Giudice, Francesco Celeni, Christos Stremmenos and Dr Guiliano Preparata, all of whom are experts in the field. They have all publicly accredited these results that support the claims of efficiency. But none of them are able to explain the process, as the measured emissions do not fall in line with what is expected in a nuclear process. It is interesting to see that some highly reputable scientists, including Nobel Laureate Emeritus Professor Brian Josephsson, are speaking out in support of the ‘cold fusion’ results â€" regardless of the theoretical constructs required for this.
All of which means that, yet again, our theory may lag the experimental evidence. Perhaps there are new forces that are emerging â€" a new science in the making. But whatever the explanation, this certainly promises a potential and welcome freedom to all energy users from the gridlocked relationship with our utility monopolists. Nor are there the toxic waste products associated with nuclear energy production. And most significantly, it will also resolve the escalating problems associated with global pollution resulting from our prodigal over use of fossil fuels. As it’s described in the official link to Rossi’s work - this may be a revolution in the making.
http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi (http://ecat.com/inventor-andrea-rossi)
Sorry. I just edited a typo - reachtions to reactions.
Nice article, make sure you get paid !!! ;D
Quote from: TEKTRON on November 22, 2011, 12:15:10 AM
Nice article, make sur
e you get paid !!! ;D
lol. I'll just be happy if it's published. Golly. It'll be a first - on just so many levels - both personally and topically.
Thanks TEKTRON.
R
;)
Guys - there's been a major spam attack by Dami on the 'news' section. Can someone please alert Harti. I would do so gladly but I'm not sure that he reads my emails.
Thanks,
Rosemary
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=34#comment-126867
November 21st, 2011 at 11:25 PM
WE COLLECT FROM NOW THE NAMES OF ALL THE PERSONS OR ENITITES INTERESTED TO BUY AN E-CAT OF 10 KW. IF WE WILL REACH 10,000 NAMES IN THE LIST, THE PERSONS IN THE WAITING LIST WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONFIRM OR NOT THEIR ORDER AT 400 EURO/THERMAL KW. DO NOT SEND MONEY, WE WILL ACCEPT THE ORDERS ONLY IF WE WILL REACH 10,000 NAMES IN THE WAITING LIST, COMBINING OUR LIST WITH THE WAITING LIST ORGANIZED BY OUR BROTHERS OF HYDROFUSION.
WARM REGARDS,
ANDREA ROSSI, LEONARDO CORP. (PRESIDENT)
Just placed my order for 10 x 10 kW plants. Will install them, at no cost in my, by children and by friends homes. Rossi said in the radio interview that they had cleared the certification issues and they expected the 10 kW plants to be available in less than 12 months. With a price of $5,400 for a 10 kW thermal plant, this will really upset the market. That is $0.54 / Watt of heat. Assuming the 20 year life Rossi claimed in the interview, the simple LCOE is so small as to make the heat energy almost free at $0.003 / kWh. At 30% efficiency heat kW to Ac kW with 3 Ac kW output, the electricity price rises to $0.01 / kWh. Good bye grid. It all changes.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 22, 2011, 04:24:57 AM
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=34#comment-126867 (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510&cpage=34#comment-126867)
November 21st, 2011 at 11:25 PM
WE COLLECT FROM NOW THE NAMES OF ALL THE PERSONS OR ENITITES INTERESTED TO BUY AN E-CAT OF 10 KW. IF WE WILL REACH 10,000 NAMES IN THE LIST, THE PERSONS IN THE WAITING LIST WILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONFIRM OR NOT THEIR ORDER AT 400 EURO/THERMAL KW. DO NOT SEND MONEY, WE WILL ACCEPT THE ORDERS ONLY IF WE WILL REACH 10,000 NAMES IN THE WAITING LIST, COMBINING OUR LIST WITH THE WAITING LIST ORGANIZED BY OUR BROTHERS OF HYDROFUSION.
WARM REGARDS,
ANDREA ROSSI, LEONARDO CORP. (PRESIDENT)
Just placed my order for 10 x 10 kW plants. Will install them, at no cost in my, by children and by friends homes. Rossi said in the radio interview that they had cleared the certification issues and they expected the 10 kW plants to be available in less than 12 months. With a price of $5,400 for a 10 kW thermal plant, this will really upset the market. That is $0.54 / Watt of heat. Assuming the 20 year life Rossi claimed in the interview, the simple LCOE is so small as to make the heat energy almost free at $0.003 / kWh. At 30% efficiency heat kW to Ac kW with 3 Ac kW output, the electricity price rises to $0.01 / kWh. Good bye grid. It all changes.
Ironshell - where did you find that link. It's not in the link you gave us. I also have a couple of orders that I'd like to place. Let us know.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Email address to place intent to order:
"Andrea Rossi - Leonardo Corp." <info@leonardocorp1996.com>
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 22, 2011, 04:55:20 AM
Email address to place intent to order:
"Andrea Rossi - Leonardo Corp." <info@leonardocorp1996.com>
I'm not unusually cautious but I, personally, would not sign any such intent to order unless I also knew what other costs were involved and what maintenance costs come with this. I think there must be some way of signing an intent to order that offers the required - else there could be a legal snarl up in the offing that could commit us without the reciprocal contractual undertakings by the supplier. As it is written here this 'intent to order' is rather one sided in it's benefits. I would prefer to see this come from Rossi's official site with the required consumer protections.
If Rossi is simply trying to gauge market demand - then that's different. But why speculate on it. At these costs he'll get interest from just about everyone in the world. And that number is somewhat larger than the 10 000 orders he's looking for.
Not sure that I like this news. As mentioned, I'd prefer to see this sanctioned by Rossi on his official website as an official announcement.
Rosemary
It is an expression of interest and not a order as he has not opened up his order book. When he does so, I expect you will get the sales contract and will be able to opt out of you do not like what you read. I also expect the cooling and electricity generation to be options which will increase the price.
The offer was on his official JONP site.
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 22, 2011, 05:39:26 AM
It is an expression of interest and not a order as he has not opened up his order book. When he does so, I expect you will get the sales contract and will be able to opt out of you do not like what you read. I also expect the cooling and electricity generation to be options which will increase the price.
The offer was on his official JONP site.
Ok IronShell. I get it. Sorry about that.
Kindest as ever
Rosemary
Rossi is meeting with the Massachusetts USA state government and MIT to explore setting up large scale manufacturing there: http://www.tarrtalk.com/2011/11/cold-fusion-inventor-comes-to-boston.html
Quote from: IronShell3d on November 22, 2011, 07:06:24 PM
Rossi is meeting with the Massachusetts USA state government and MIT to explore setting up large scale manufacturing there: http://www.tarrtalk.com/2011/11/cold-fusion-inventor-comes-to-boston.html (http://www.tarrtalk.com/2011/11/cold-fusion-inventor-comes-to-boston.html)
@IronShell3d:
Thank you for this additionally encouraging news concerning the E-Cat technology. L.E.N.R. as a whole is finally gaining tremendous momentum and notice. Please don't interpret the previous sentence as an excuse for us to relax and coast or become complacent. We're not out of the woods quite yet.
Find clever ways to weave the new breakthrough into typical conversations at work and with friends and family. Word of mouth is WAY underrated. Professional advertisers know that it is the single most powerful tool for selling ANYTHING including an unheard of revolutionary technology called the E-Cat. I'm serious. If you don't do anything else to further over unity, please at least do this.
For extra credit, please visit the thread that contains information about the petition you can sign (electronically) online at the government's own White House website (http://www.overunity.com/11709/rossi-cold-fusion-device-investigate-from-white-house-signe-it/ (http://www.overunity.com/11709/rossi-cold-fusion-device-investigate-from-white-house-signe-it/)).
And lastly, if you find time during your Thanksgiving Holiday vacation from work, treat yourself to this brand new grade "A" documentary which not only covers free energy technology and the status quo, but it also lends perspective to the "big picture" and how wealthy corporations, private central banks and the government all successfully control the masses through manipulation. It's a must see. It's titled "Thrive" and here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Vv9QOJv0E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Vv9QOJv0E)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 23, 2011, 12:03:11 AM
@IronShell3d:
Thank you for this additionally encouraging news concerning the E-Cat technology. L.E.N.R. as a whole is finally gaining tremendous momentum and notice. Please don't interpret the previous sentence as an excuse for us to relax and coast or become complacent. We're not out of the woods quite yet.
Find clever ways to weave the new breakthrough into typical conversations at work and with friends and family. Word of mouth is WAY underrated. Professional advertisers know that it is the single most powerful tool for selling ANYTHING including an unheard of revolutionary technology called the E-Cat. I'm serious. If you don't do anything else to further over unity, please at least do this.
For extra credit, please visit the thread that contains information about the petition you can sign (electronically) online at the government's own White House website (http://www.overunity.com/11709/rossi-cold-fusion-device-investigate-from-white-house-signe-it/ (http://www.overunity.com/11709/rossi-cold-fusion-device-investigate-from-white-house-signe-it/)).
And lastly, if you find time during your Thanksgiving Holiday vacation from work, treat yourself to this brand new grade "A" documentary which not only covers free energy technology and the status quo, but it also lends perspective to the "big picture" and how wealthy corporations, private central banks and the government all successfully control the masses through manipulation. It's a must see. It's titled "Thrive" and here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Vv9QOJv0E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-Vv9QOJv0E)
Regards,
Chess
Dear Chess
Those links of yours are pure gold. Very interesting indeed. It resonates.
I believe that, soon now, that little article I wrote is going to be published. I was in contact with the editor. We'll see. lol. Also I've been promised - time to be determined - a broadcast about all this - with an American chat show host. May even come here to Cape Town. All's moving as it should.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
by the by - yet again, another link to the blog - for those who have not grown tired of all this good news.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/11/198-breakthroughs-all-over-place.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/11/198-breakthroughs-all-over-place.html)
ADDED - for those of us who are NOT US citizens - it seems to allow us ALL to vote. I sent them an email (there's an option there that I somehow managed to find) where I explained that the issue was that important that it effected everyone world wide - just in case they need it.I think it may be desirable for more of us internationally to add or voice. There may be a reluctance on the part of the US citizens to give that much information. They can't duck into different identities and there may be those who prefer not to be on record. Just a thought. And I know that these politicians enjoy it when they're internationally conspicuous - so to speak. And they need many more signatures. Incidentally I DID NOT SEE that vote count go up after I'd signed it. Not sure that it's a valid statistic.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 23, 2011, 07:36:25 PM
Dear Chess
Those links of yours are pure gold. Very interesting indeed. It resonates.
I believe that, soon now, that little article I wrote is going to be published. I was in contact with the editor. We'll see. lol. Also I've been promised - time to be determined - a broadcast about all this - with an American chat show host. May even come here to Cape Town. All's moving as it should.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
by the by - yet again, another link to the blog - for those who have not grown tired of all this good news.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/11/198-breakthroughs-all-over-place.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/11/198-breakthroughs-all-over-place.html)
ADDED - for those of us who are NOT US citizens - it seems to allow us ALL to vote. I sent them an email (there's an option there that I somehow managed to find) where I explained that the issue was that important that it effected everyone world wide - just in case they need it.I think it may be desirable for more of us internationally to add or voice. There may be a reluctance on the part of the US citizens to give that much information. They can't duck into different identities and there may be those who prefer not to be on record. Just a thought. And I know that these politicians enjoy it when they're internationally conspicuous - so to speak. And they need many more signatures. Incidentally I DID NOT SEE that vote count go up after I'd signed it. Not sure that it's a valid statistic.
@Rosemary:
You sure are making a sensational effort to get very effective information into the public's hands. When your article is published, it will add another needed brick and mortar to an already growing awareness in the public arena. GREAT JOB :)
And there's no such thing as too much good news so keep it coming (I loved the article, by the way). When you do your broadcast, please let us know if there is any way we might be able to hear it live. If not, then just post a link to either the transcript or program recording for download.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 23, 2011, 09:05:06 PM
@Rosemary:
You sure are making a sensational effort to get very effective information into the public's hands. When your article is published, it will add another needed brick and mortar to an already growing awareness in the public arena. GREAT JOB :)
And there's no such thing as too much good news so keep it coming (I loved the article, by the way). When you do your broadcast, please let us know if there is any way we might be able to hear it live. If not, then just post a link to either the transcript or program recording for download.
Best regards,
Chess
Thanks Chess. The broadcast will be sometime AFTER 5th of December only. But I'll let you know. It may be that it'll be an interview held here in SA. Otherwise it'll be a live broadcast through a SKYPE conference. But I'll certainly let you know.
:D
I'm just so happy at the moment. God's up there and all's well.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
Nobel prize winner Brian Josephson just recently asked Andrea Rossi to host another test demonstration to verify his E-Cat technology.
Here's an excerpt from Rossi's reply:
"Dear Professor Josephson, I do understand your concerns, but as I already explained, I am not going to give any other demonstration of the E-Cat because at this point it wouldn't make any sense: we already got industrial manufacturing underway and the E-Cat is a ready product for the market. Our customers will buy a working device; if it didn't work, they wouldn't buy it. Besides, I'm in such a busy and demanding stage that, even if I wanted, I wouldn't have the time to arrange any test." -- Andrea Rossi
Rossi's reply goes on to also state:
"In summary, I don't intend to give any other dimostrative test: the last one has been the one of Oct, 6th. We are selling plants to customers who run their own tests and decide whether to buy the E-Cat or not relying on their results: they don't mind what's inside the reactor. Meanwhile, the university of Bologna will take scrupulous care of the scientific work..." -- Andrea Rossi
Here's a link to the full story:
http://www.focus.it/scienza/ecat-cold-fusion-andrea-rossi-replies-to-nobel-prize-winner-brian-josephson-956_C12.aspx (http://www.focus.it/scienza/ecat-cold-fusion-andrea-rossi-replies-to-nobel-prize-winner-brian-josephson-956_C12.aspx)
I absolutely agree with Rossi's stance in regards to future testing by the academic world. Rossi has no time to be playing games and jumping through any more hoops as is the case in any dog and pony show. I love the way he responded to the world renown scientific community (specifically Mr. Josephson). The Nobel Prize winner could always purchase one of Rossi's units and do 40 years worth of testing on it and then let us all know how it went.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 23, 2011, 10:00:36 PM
Nobel prize winner Brian Josephson just recently asked Andrea Rossi to host another test demonstration to verify his E-Cat technology.
Here's an excerpt from Rossi's reply:
"Dear Professor Josephson, I do understand your concerns, but as I already explained, I am not going to give any other demonstration of the E-Cat because at this point it wouldn't make any sense: we already got industrial manufacturing underway and the E-Cat is a ready product for the market. Our customers will buy a working device; if it didn't work, they wouldn't buy it. Besides, I'm in such a busy and demanding stage that, even if I wanted, I wouldn't have the time to arrange any test." -- Andrea Rossi
Rossi's reply goes on to also state:
"In summary, I don't intend to give any other dimostrative test: the last one has been the one of Oct, 6th. We are selling plants to customers who run their own tests and decide whether to buy the E-Cat or not relying on their results: they don't mind what's inside the reactor. Meanwhile, the university of Bologna will take scrupulous care of the scientific work..." -- Andrea Rossi
Here's a link to the full story:
http://www.focus.it/scienza/ecat-cold-fusion-andrea-rossi-replies-to-nobel-prize-winner-brian-josephson-956_C12.aspx (http://www.focus.it/scienza/ecat-cold-fusion-andrea-rossi-replies-to-nobel-prize-winner-brian-josephson-956_C12.aspx)
I absolutely agree with Rossi's stance in regards to future testing by the academic world. Rossi has no time to be playing games and jumping through any more hoops as is the case in any dog and pony show. I love the way he responded to the world renown scientific community (specifically Mr. Josephson). The Nobel Prize winner could always purchase one of Rossi's units and do 40 years worth of testing on it and then let us all know how it went.
Regards,
Chess
Good to better to BEST. What a pleasure to read all this. BUT, regarding Josephesson, he was one of those rare few who vociferously supported 'cold fusion' during those rather dark 2 decades where it went underground - so to speak. And, surprisingly - it did nothing to diminish his academic stature. Would that others would follow suit.
But Rossi is right. IF one is to get this assessed without any bias then it most assuredly needs to be put in the capable hands of more than just one person. Lest there be competing interests. That's the object of publishing which - may I remind you all - WAS DENIED TO ROSSI. Here were his problems. To secure production rights on an entire new technology requires prior academic publication. He WAS UNABLE TO PUBLISH - which is something that I also know something about. But listen how brilliant. He simply published his very own JOURNAL OF PHYSICS (I think it's called) - then published his and a few related papers - had them duly reviewed - then closed that journal down. I'm not sure that they take any more papers as I looked for an option there. Which, in my book is ALL kudos. And that was all that was required to qualify for that patent and the subsequent selling rights of that technology. WHAT A STAR.
Finally we've got a solution to our energy crisis that will exceed the hard work of those HORRIBLE trolls. It strikes me that this is probably the most important news that has ever hit this forum. Why is it not gaining traction? It's strange. I think that goes back to the comments made by Iwh? I think is his name?
It's all very good.
Rosemary
Guys,
apologies for consecutive posts - yet again. But here's a letter that we've just sent off to our publisher. It - hopefully - will earn some kind of reply.
Dear Professor,
It seems that these delays in publishing our paper have allowed the news of Rossi's E-CAT to advance our own news. Not that I mind - one little bit - as it's all grist to the mill.
I wonder if I can impose on you to please read that second part of that 2-part paper. You will see that it argues that so called 'over unity' is the inevitable consequence when one uses 'dark energy', which, we argue is simply 'magnetic energy' from the primary Magnetic Force. This has the very real merit of reconciling some diverse branches of physics without a required revision to the standard model.
I am reasonably satisfied that the argument is well articulated as I have comments on record, about this, from some very prestigious academics to whom I've shown that paper. I also understand that I've made an error - in the nature of a 'typo' where I reference Power = vi dt - where I should have written Energy. It's correctly referenced elsewhere in both papers. And that error is correctable. Apart from that I've only had favorable comments - in those few instances where the recipients commented at all.
I wonder if I could impose on you to please advise us of the status of that paper. We have not managed to solicit a response to our earlier request on this.
And, in conclusion, dear Professor *****, I wonder if it would not be as well to at least put those questions out there. We are not being pedantic in our proposed solutions to this. And it may initiate the required dialogue amongst those academics that they evaluate this energy as coming from an alternate force to those proposed in the standard model. And it may help to advance Rossi's technology which is so urgently required. Certainly the debate needs initiation and then our learned academics can better argue the need for those emissions that are sorely lacking in the LENR technology. If this is, indeed, determined as 'dark energy' which is what we propose - then there is an immediate explanation and the standard model is entirely secured - notwithstanding.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary.
It's also published in my blogspot. :D Personally I'm not averse to repetition.
Rossi's hurry to get to the market as rapid as possible is all quite understandable if his patent situation is understood.
If I look into this situation, most of his essential claims are rejected (as indicated in the Italian PA process flow).
Also, the fact that he has no details of the catalyst, he claims to use, in his current patent makes the patent basically useless.
Question, as raised before by other members here as well, is whether the use of any catalyst is essential in this technology.
So, it looks that his patent situation is very weak.
The only way for him to make significant money is to very quickly serve the market.
I would not be very suprised if the details of this technology will be public and free to use within one year from now.
Quote from: teslaalset on November 24, 2011, 04:54:41 AM
Rossi's hurry to get to the market as rapid as possible is all quite understandable if his patent situation is understood.
If I look into this situation, most of his essential claims are rejected (as indicated in the Italian PA process flow).
Also, the fact that he has no details of the catalyst, he claims to use, in his current patent makes the patent basically useless.
Question, as raised before by other members here as well, is whether the use of any catalyst is essential in this technology.
So, it looks that his patent situation is very weak.
The only way for him to make significant money is to very quickly serve the market.
I would not be very suprised if the details of this technology will be public and free to use within one year from now.
@Teslaalset:
You're correct in your assessment of Rossi's situation. Rossi knows his window of opportunity to profit is running out. He doesn't want the selling of his home and all the hard work he's put into this technology to be for not. I would much rather him try to profit from the technology by bringing it to market than by selling out to the oil cartels where it would surely be buried forever.
As far as the patent being worthless; this is what I was thinking when I posted reply #322. I also believe his patent is worthless due to his willfully choosing to leave out his "secret" catalyst. At least here in the U.S. for sure.
It's just my opinion (of course) but I believe the "secret" catalyst does actually exist. What its specific role in the reaction is, I do not know.
Regards,
Chess
There are a few more things to mention about the claimed catalyst.
1) Rossi might have a separate PA that recently has been initiated. Normally it takes about a year before PA's are published. So there might be something in the making here.
2) The definition of a catalyst is that it's material that accelerates a chemical reaction without taking part of the reaction itself. Since this phenomenon is likely not a chemical reaction, anything that influences the efficiency of the process is actually not a catalyst. There is a new definition required to cover this effect in a patent. If Rossi is mentioning 'catalyst' without that new definition in a pending PA it maybe worthless as well.
We will see how this proceeds....
@Everyone:
More good news being released today!
"Andrea Rossi may have his doubters, detractors and skeptics, but the client for whom he demonstrated his 1MW e-Cat energy system apparently isn't one of them. Not only did the mysterious client take delivery of Rossi's first 1MW heat energy production system, but ordered a dozen more for use in cold, remote locations. That's an order worth $24 million." -- EV World
The full article can be found at:
http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=2035 (http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=2035)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 24, 2011, 11:55:33 AM
@Everyone:
More good news being released today!
"Andrea Rossi may have his doubters, detractors and skeptics, but the client for whom he demonstrated his 1MW e-Cat energy system apparently isn't one of them. Not only did the mysterious client take delivery of Rossi's first 1MW heat energy production system, but ordered a dozen more for use in cold, remote locations. That's an order worth $24 million." -- EV World
The full article can be found at:
http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=2035 (http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=2035)
Regards,
Chess
I tend to be on the side of the E-cat believers.
But it sure would be nice to be able to confirm the existence of this "customer" beyond the words out of Rossi's mouth. Can anyone provide more information that would help the average guy feel comfortable that this customer does in fact exist?
Hello Guys,
Rossi's definitely trapped between a rock and a hard place. If he has that catalytic number then effectively he sells it's secret at the cost of $2M every time he delivers a unit. Which is cheap at the price. Here's the thing. It will be absolutely impossible for him to depend on patent protections because everyone who can, will be varying what ever's required to patent their own. And - consider that Celani was working on this prior to his knowledge of Rossi's effective technology. Professor Celani could only generate small wattage. There's something that Rossi has that makes nickle and hydrogen work at a heavy duty level. That's the only thing he can patent - because - obviously - cold fusion can't be patented - and nor can the nickle and hydrogen ingredients be patented. Else we'd not know of them. It's public knowledge - so to speak.
So. My take is that Rossi will do just about everything needed short of actually delivering a working unit until he's got orders under his belt. Then he'll have the contracts required to lock in some streamlined production of those units and that way he can stay ahead of the pack. I'm not sure that he is that concerned about the patenting side of things. It simply will NOT get protected. It would be impossible to control. Think of it. Someone takes over his unit and adds - let's say - traces of nitrogen - or something small and something exotic. Then they CLAIM that this is required for a slightly varied improvement which also justifies their own patents to produce their own reactors. And so it goes. It only needs a small variation to qualify as 'intellectual property'. And there's no known science to qualify for this surplus energy. And then too. Being outside conventional science and conventional explanations then anyone at all can claim precisely what they want. Who's to gainsay them?
Then consider this. For some reason heavy water was immediately replaced with nickle and hydrogen. That's way different to Fleishmann and Pons with their deuterium and palladium mix. In any event - it seems that Professor Francesco Celani went that route in his own trials. Who's to say that there aren't dozens or more alternate options that may yet work even more effectively?
My take is that Rossi's got the tiger by the tail. Which possibly means that he's going about this the right way. He shows that it works. He gets a welter of contracts to build sundry units. Then he sells off those contracts under some kind of production licensing agreement. But just about as soon as he starts delivering his units I'll put money on it that he'll confront some pretty hefty competition. Which can only be a good thing.
What's not such a good thing is if those units are then sold to the public under license rather than ownership. Otherwise guys - we may as well stay with our monopolists. It'll be subject to abuse. Hopefully this will never happen.
Regards,
Rosemary
ADDED
JUST LEARNED THAT MY ARTICLE IS NOT GOING TO BE PUBLISHED - THE REASON, APPARENTLY, IS THAT THERE IS NO CREDIBILITY.
WHAT'S NEW?
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 24, 2011, 08:54:01 PM
JUST LEARNED THAT MY ARTICLE IS NOT GOING TO BE PUBLISHED - THE REASON, APPARENTLY, IS THAT THERE IS NO CREDIBILITY.
WHAT'S NEW?
@Rosemary:
I'm sorry to learn that your article was rejected for publication. The original Cold Fusion story that headlined all the major newspapers lacked ANY credibility as it was making claims far outside the received scientific paradigm yet it was published around the world. This is precisely why the mainstream media can not be trusted.
This breakthrough in L.E.N.R. technology is the biggest discovery in modern science since the discovery of electricity but if you watch the entire new documentary "Thrive", you may soon start to understand why the major networks have eclipsed this story. It is also time for mainstream America to eclipse the entire major networks altogether as they do not have our best interests at heart.
You have to follow the money. Who sponsors the major networks (buys commercial air time for thousands of dollars per second) that dominate our news outlets? It is corporate America that sponsors and owns them just as they own (have already purchased) the U.S. government.
Warm regards,
Chess
Quote from: bullsnbears1 on November 24, 2011, 12:47:47 PM
I tend to be on the side of the E-cat believers.
But it sure would be nice to be able to confirm the existence of this "customer" beyond the words out of Rossi's mouth. Can anyone provide more information that would help the average guy feel comfortable that this customer does in fact exist?
@bullsnbears1:
If Rossi revealed the name of his mystery customer, he would probably lose this customer as this customer does not want to be named. It has to be a contractual agreement in which Rossi has agreed to keep this customer's identity concealed, otherwise it would have obviously been released. Yes, it would obviously benefit Rossi's company to showcase this customer's identity and even develop a promotional video of his 1 megawatt power plants in operation in the field, but Rossi must respect his client's wishes first and foremost.
Would I want to be showcased as the first commercial E-Cat owner and operator in the United States? A technology that undermines a multi-trillion dollar energy industry such as Big Oil? A technology which basically will cause the very richest individuals in the U.S. to go broke? After watching what they did to Stanley Meyer, absolutely NOT. So I can't say that I blame his client for their decision to remain confidential.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 25, 2011, 05:42:39 PM
@Rosemary:
I'm sorry to learn that your article was rejected for publication. The original Cold Fusion story that headlined all the major newspapers lacked ANY credibility as it was making claims far outside the received scientific paradigm yet it was published around the world. This is precisely why the mainstream media can not be trusted.
This breakthrough in L.E.N.R. technology is the biggest discovery in modern science since the discovery of electricity but if you watch the entire new documentary "Thrive", you may soon start to understand why the major networks have eclipsed this story. It is also time for mainstream America to eclipse the entire major networks altogether as they do not have our best interests at heart.
You have to follow the money. Who sponsors the major networks (buys commercial air time for thousands of dollars per second) that dominate our news outlets? It is corporate America that sponsors and owns them just as they own (have already purchased) the U.S. government.
Warm regards,
Chess
Quite right Chess. I did watch that video more than once. It's brilliantly produced. And it's a compelling argument. I'm finding more and more of these things being really well explained. Ancient aliens is another series that's captivated me. Not sure if it's on the internet but it's been fielded by our History channel. Also very brilliant. And frankly before I saw either of these I was rather sceptical as I'd heard of both theories before. Clearly one is never too old to learn.
I believe that Rossi may yet get to read my thesis. It's being forwarded by a mutual friend. If so, then there may be something there that he could use. I very much doubt that the weak nuclear interaction explains it. But - who knows? If he does use it then the beauty is that there is no major confrontation with mainstream and the standard model. That's the problem - as I see it. Contradict our Learned and Revered and you're likely to become a pariah. I'm holding my breath here.
Take care Chess.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 26, 2011, 10:39:58 AM
Quite right Chess. I did watch that video more than once. It's brilliantly produced. And it's a compelling argument. I'm finding more and more of these things being really well explained. Ancient aliens is another series that's captivated me. Not sure if it's on the internet but it's been fielded by our History channel. Also very brilliant. And frankly before I saw either of these I was rather sceptical as I'd heard of both theories before. Clearly one is never too old to learn.
I believe that Rossi may yet get to read my thesis. It's being forwarded by a mutual friend. If so, then there may be something there that he could use. I very much doubt that the weak nuclear interaction explains it. But - who knows? If he does use it then the beauty is that there is no major confrontation with mainstream and the standard model. That's the problem - as I see it. Contradict our Learned and Revered and you're likely to become a pariah. I'm holding my breath here.
Take care Chess.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
The success of the E-Cat, having made it to market on schedule, is a huge milestone in and of itself. I seriously doubt this would be the case if the inventor were a U.S. citizen. Causing harm to befall upon Rossi would certainly spark an international incident so it is of great advantage to Rossi to be out of the reach of such forces that stand to lose their monopoly and thus their strangle hold on us all.
The hidden benefit of the E-Cat's success is the future avenue it paves for various other types of technologies that otherwise could not emerge into unhampered commercialization.
My expertise is in another technology that I would like to bring forth in due time but because I lack the expertise, experience and am unable to facilitate the experimentation in the field of LENRs, I will leave it to those who are able to do so. I will come back to the field I am currently involved in at a latter date once I perfect it to the point of being ready for public usage. This is Rossi's moment and he has beaten everyone here to market (please correct me if I am mistaken) and we should be very grateful for his contribution to mankind on so many different levels besides the obvious ones.
Take care,
Chess
Dear Chess
You must have read what was written about Rossi even on this forum? The writer is otherwise understood to be a supporter of over unity. He catalogued a series of allegations that included, among others, the insinuation that Rossi was imprisoned for perpetrating a con related to Petroldragon? He took the trouble to keep that post OFF this, your thread, being the appropriate forum. And he somehow managed to get that exact same post into the dialogue of a second thread that he had started - and the SAME thing into another forum entirely - also with some clumsy relevance worked into that dialogue to pretend a topicality with what was being discussed. Following on from those allegations was also a tedious debate where the writer pretended to be some kind of ultimate authority on the question of emissions and even to be in a position - HIMSELF - to independently evaluate the 'truth' about the toxicity of those emissions. I haven't even touched on the full reach of that little exercise in psyops propagandising - where amongst other things he insinuated that he was in direct correspondence with Rossi. But. Nota bene. He went to some pains to stress this much. Either there are emissions - in which case it's a valid nuclear interaction - OR there not - in which case the CLAIM is spurious and, in the light of all those innuendos - LIKELY TO BE A CON. Which puts the value of Rossi's device somewhere between a rock and a hard place - which was the intended 'lose lose' condition of those alternatives. Gamma rays - or bust.
The truth of the matter was that Rossi was INDEED imprisoned, on a trumped up charge of 'pollution'. One does not need to dig too far to find a motive for this. He was subsequently released - due to an entire lack of evidence which, as a rule, is not a critical condition for imprisonment in Italy. As in France, the general rule there is that a person is guilty until proved innocent. Some six years later, I believe, he was entirely EXONERATED from any such charges and his NAME WAS CLEARED. And there's proof of innocence. Because criminals, as a rule, cannot emigrate to America. And Rossi is an American citizien. But that imprisonment and that ALLEGATION OF POLLUTION was enough to sink a well funded project which then collapsed like a pack of cards. And many investors lost their money together with Rossi's good name.
Now. Onto another point. We all know that Nobel Laureate, Professor Brian Josephsson - has been speaking out 'openly' in support of cold fusion. I believe Brian Josephsson is a supporter of the work of Professor Celani who was working, independently on LENR. Josephsson's motto is to the let the facts speak for themselves. Let the evidence be the argument. Or - to the point. 'Fag the explanation. Just deal with the results'. He's on record. And whatever the intentions of either of those two esteemed academics - the fact is that Celani did not manage to get this to heavy duty wattage - or, if he did, he did NOT advise the public of this. THEN was that surprise move - where Josephsson wrote an OPEN letter to Rossi to ask him to allow Celani to do all the independent verifications required for Rossi's technology. What was he thinking? It is absolutely against all acceptable protocols to EVER confine accreditation of anything at all - to one person. The whole purpose of any accreditation is to first allow academic publication to secure a wide range of talents to replicate an effect. In the absence of being able to publish - for whatever reason, then the accreditation must be handled by more than one person. And Rossi's intelligent solution is to let an entire university do this. That's a very good thing. Because it only needs one replication to secure a claim - regardless of how many try and fail. And if there is only one nominated representative to do that accreditation - then it is likely to be corrupted by anything at all, including lack of talent or even, God forbid, a required agenda to disclaim benefit. Not a solution. AT all. Not even our academics would support it - let alone Rossi. One must therefore ask why someone with the acknowledged genius of Josephsson, would propose that a competitor to Rossi's claim - ever be called on to endorse Rossi's claim - when he would be so much better served to propose a variation which will advance his own interests and deny Rossi's. And what part then - in all this - does Josephsson play? I have no idea. It seems to be an extraordinary abuse of influence somehow. Fortunately Rossi's refusal was utterly reasonable. He has already nominated those who can study this with the required impartiality and, more to the point when they're under contracted NDA's.
Which brings me back to Rossi's dilemma. In order to secure patents on his technology the technology must first be published - or the results must be explicable in terms of known physics. This much is impossible - precisely because, whatever else everyone is measuring - toxic emissions appropriate to nuclear processes - are ENTIRELY ABSENT. I have no doubt that there is that pesky evidence of copper and, according to the evidence - it is not in an isotopic form which is required for a nuclear process. Which means that he has to argue this as a weak nuclear interaction. And, as far as we know, weak nuclear interactions do NOT allow for the entire transmutation of elements. Which is where, I hope, that our own 'solution' is considered as the explanation. Because, you see this I hope. Our own solution DOES NOT deviate from the standard model. Indeed, in terms of that very same STANDARD MODEL - it can be argued that these over unity results are actually REQUIRED. Certainly it argues for the existence of all that copper in the aftermath of that reaction.
And this, in turn brings me back to that 'agenda' thing which is always the 'background' theme of these forums. I am reasonably satisfied that anyone reading here will be able to discount whatever it is that I communicate based on the almost hysterical need of sundry trolls to assure all and sundry that - not only am I something of an idiot - but also a CON and - I believe as it's claimed - A FRAUD. Now. Let me plain about this. Whatever results we have managed are ENTIRELY ECLIPSED by Rossi's findings. To the extent that I've effectively closed my own thread on this matter. And nor will I be doing any further experimentation unless and as it's required. I cannot, for the life of me, see any point in advancing a technology based on the availability of batteries when all that is needed is a teaspoon full of nickle and a small injection of hydrogen. The ONLY way I may be compelled to continue with this work is in the unlikely event that something happens that Rossi's work is effectively discounted and denied. And I say 'UNLIKELY' advisedly. Because his results speak for themselves.
But, by the same token, I would be sorry to find that they also ignore the fact that there's an entire explanation in the standard model. It has eluded detection simply because it has NEVER been argued that a magnetic field may be a primary force as the foundational construct of all the forces. When this is seen, then I am entirely satisfied that our learned academics will be able to argue the need for over unity - for themselves. And THAT is my entire 'raison d'etre'. Because I also know that therein lies - not only the location of all this energy - but the key to unlocking it's potential. We have found NOTHING new. We have NOTHING to add to the standard model. And that would be more than enough justification - not only for Rossi's patent - but for the work that so many of us are progressing.
So Chess. This is not an attempt at self promotion. On the contrary. I am most anxious to suggest that Rossi 'blow' all that theoretical requirement and simply lean on the obvious explanations that are already there. That's what I'm trying to point him to. And it most assuredly falls well within our existing paradigms. If anything - it also endorses our dark force enthusiasts who, thus far, have unfortunately been on the outskirts of popular theories. Not sure that I'll ever be forgiven for the prosaic nature of this solution. But I also have the uncomfortable realisation that these explanations are bang on target. It's unfortunate that they've been so widely discredited - is all. I certainly DO NOT want to detract from Rossi's moment - if that's what you're advising me. Very, VERY far from it.
Kindest,
Rosemary
Added. Guys, Here's a reference to that paper and our attempts at getting this published. If you're not in the habit of reading between the lines - the fact is that we are not getting ANY response from the editor - AT ALL. Extraordinary.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/11/199-heres-hoping-our-reviewers-will-put.html
Quote from: chessnyt on November 26, 2011, 09:19:21 AM
@bullsnbears1:
If Rossi revealed the name of his mystery customer, he would probably lose this customer as this customer does not want to be named. It has to be a contractual agreement in which Rossi has agreed to keep this customer's identity concealed, otherwise it would have obviously been released. Yes, it would obviously benefit Rossi's company to showcase this customer's identity and even develop a promotional video of his 1 megawatt power plants in operation in the field, but Rossi must respect his client's wishes first and foremost.
Would I want to be showcased as the first commercial E-Cat owner and operator in the United States? A technology that undermines a multi-trillion dollar energy industry such as Big Oil? A technology which basically will cause the very richest individuals in the U.S. to go broke? After watching what they did to Stanley Meyer, absolutely NOT. So I can't say that I blame his client for their decision to remain confidential.
Regards,
Chess
Of course! I fully understand and empathize with their position.
Personally, I was disappointed on the date of the 1MW plant because leading up to the test we were told that we would know who the customer was, and I believe we were told the underlying theory of the technology would be explained.
Now that that hasn't happened, I was hoping someone could clarify what facts we could use to assure ourselves that this customer actually exists.
@Rosemary:
Thank you for such a detailed response as I was especially impressed with your background research into Rossi's prior entanglement(s) with opposing forces. This may have been what Rossi was referring to when he called his enemies "blackmailers" and the like.
I had not read the thread in which Rossi was attacked with "psyops" propaganda but it certainly comes as no surprise to me just as the spam attack you reported earlier did in fact also occur as I checked into it myself. Stanley Meyer was also attacked in a similar fashion on the heels of a civil suit in which he was found guilty of fraud and was ordered to repay two investors who brought about the suit. To this day, enemies of his research still try to dismiss his technology with the fraud suit which was a setup from the get go. In fact, there's a thread here at overunity.com which covers the details surrounding this case in great detail. A similar attack used against Rossi is the Pons and Fleishman announcement which is what many academics try to use to destroy Rossi's claims despite the clear and distinct differences in the reactors (as well as other key parameters).
Now as far as the "self promotion" and "detraction" issues are concerned; I wasn't insinuating that either was the case on your part. What I meant by "This is Rossi's moment..." is that I was refusing to go into greater detail concerning my own field of research as I could always do that in another thread at another time when my own results warranted such an effort. I was also attempting to clear up why I was NOT in an authoritive position to thoroughly explain Rossi's technology as my own personal area of expertise is completely unrelated.
On the contrary, I deeply appreciate your efforts to spread the word about the E-Cat as well as your very insightful articles (one of which was more than justified in being published) in which you chronicle Rossi's efforts.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: bullsnbears1 on November 27, 2011, 08:14:08 AM
Of course! I fully understand and empathize with their position.
Personally, I was disappointed on the date of the 1MW plant because leading up to the test we were told that we would know who the customer was, and I believe we were told the underlying theory of the technology would be explained.
Now that that hasn't happened, I was hoping someone could clarify what facts we could use to assure ourselves that this customer actually exists.
@bullsnbears1:
I too was disappointed with an assortment of shortcomings on the 1 megawatt plant debut. The customer was in fact supposed to be announced on the 28th of October, however, I believe this was a misunderstanding on the part of the author of the article who may have simply assumed it would be obvious or evident as the customer would in deed be present on the day of testing.
One of the other shortcomings I was disappointed with was the output of the power plant which was only about half of what is was supposed to be. This turned out to be a minor engineering glitch due to faulty gaskets (which have since been replaced) which were not capable of sealing the joints/flanges due to the amount of heat and pressure of the steam produced by the reactors at maximum output.
I hope the customer is revealed in the not too distant future as well when the technology has had ample time to further proliferate.
Regards,
Chess
Good stuff Chess.
In any event, here's the thing. Where I am decidedly unpopular with free energy enthusiasts as well as with our academics is that both have been flirting with 'new theory' to explain either their own over unity results or their arguments for all this energy - respectively. Only our academics have a coherent argument which is managed in the exotic thinking of our string theorists. And then it's an even smaller subdivision of these theorists who actually have the entire answer which they can prove mathematically. But that answer is impossibly obtuse and outside the reach even of our standard theorists. But the physics experimentalists have not identified the 'carrier particle' despite some hefty research funding.
Which means, that it's highly unlikely that Rossi's work will become 'respectable' until they've managed the explanation. And we most assuredly have that explanation. And its beauty is that it's OBVIOUS. Which makes it extremely unpopular. Everyone can understand why certain facts have eluded detection when they're that subtle that they require extraordinary genius to be found. One does not expect a ham fisted elderly woman from the back end of Africa - to point to some obvious oversights in physics that then renders the explanation for all this into terms that are EASILY understood. The more so when she's a self-confessed ignoramus on matters scientific. Which, is the unfortunate part that we played with our evidence and the thesis that predicted that evidence.
Now. You say you're now familiar with that 'attack' which I've had. Know this. Since we've submitted those papers for publication and since that second part of the two part paper can now be referenced on a blogsite that cannot be 'attacked' by that little band of well fed 'dogs' - that attack has STOPPED. It's extraordinary. And I know why. If they continued to attack either me or that little thesis of ours then they'll draw attention to it. And that will serve to PROMOTE it. They're hell bent on hiding the solution. Not advancing it.
But that's neither here nor there. The point is this. If indeed, Rossi is accessing 'dark energy' which we can argue with very real competence - then he does not need to explain anything at all. Dark energy has already been proved. They're trying to locate it. We propose that it's in magnetic fields. And magnetic fields are EVERYWHERE. God knows. We live in a bath of it right here on the surface of planet Earth. Then. You see this I hope. There will be NOTHING to stop that technology from not only being installed - but being progressed - YET FURTHER. There are many, many ways to skin this (e) CAT.
;D
And - at the risk of going on and on - just also know that we have very carefully not published that 1st part of our paper anywhere on the internet. That's because it would run the risk of letting those dogs do what Josephsson proposed that Celani do - which is to broadcast that the results are 'FALLACIOUS'. I have an abiding respect for the amazing skills of our TROLLS. They are extremely effective. And that 1st part of that two part paper details the evidence of a test that dissipates in excess of 130 watts - while the batttery RECHARGES. That's the kind of efficiency that Rossi has shown us. Obviously on a smaller scale. But it warrants a certain amount of pause. Certainly it's substantial proof of the thesis. But. Having said that. We have only got that heat signature with the use of batteries. And they're clumsy at best. Rossi's solution is IMPECCABLE.
But where the entire cause could be much better served is if more of you could wrap your minds around some very simple facts that are included in that paper. When those principles are better understood then the question will no longer be 'how is this done' but 'how could one NOT approve Rossi's technology?'. That's the point we need to reach. I think.
Can't wait. Where I LOVE our academics, is that they actually will NEVER settle for a partial solution. I know that once they've thrashed out the answer it will, indeed, be the answer. And I also know that the evidence is in this modest but elusive magnetic field which is a primary rather than a secondary force.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
Quote from: chessnyt on November 27, 2011, 11:46:54 PM
@bullsnbears1:
I too was disappointed with an assortment of shortcomings on the 1 megawatt plant debut. The customer was in fact supposed to be announced on the 28th of October, however, I believe this was a misunderstanding on the part of the author of the article who may have simply assumed it would be obvious or evident as the customer would in deed be present on the day of testing.
One of the other shortcomings I was disappointed with was the output of the power plant which was only about half of what is was supposed to be. This turned out to be a minor engineering glitch due to faulty gaskets (which have since been replaced) which were not capable of sealing the joints/flanges due to the amount of heat and pressure of the steam produced by the reactors at maximum output.
I hope the customer is revealed in the not too distant future as well when the technology has had ample time to further proliferate.
Regards,
Chess
Chess, and bullsnbears - that test was NOT a fail. It was showing a self running system at 450 KW. THAT'S HUGE. It just did not reach the targeted and full potential. But that's the vagaries of all demonstrations. One does not expect duplication 'ON DEMAND'. Of course shit happens. And who knows this better than an experimentalist. But I am at an entire loss to understand how 450 MW greater than unity can represent anything other than a resounding success. Personally I'd have popped the odd bottle - at 1 KW.
And as for that buyer remaining anonymous. I have every sympathy. On the whole it's required. Your average company is owned by a variety of shareholders. When it's a public company that holding can influence company policy. It has the potential for investors that could easily bend the majority shareholders' opinion in any way required. On the whole it's shows a salutary caution. I'm sure that the 'secrecy' will not be required once the e-cat's installed.
But, on another point, I also think that Rossi's cause would be better served if he started out with smaller units. We, the public have absolutely no interest in anything other than to install it and get us off grid. And we are NOT at the mercy of shareholders and their opinions. Hopefully he'll get around to this sooner rather than later.
Kindest again,
Rosemary
EDITED.Guys, I've amended this post to read K Watts and not Megawatts. Is this right? I thought Rossi generated 450 mega watts? Please advise, or give that link again. I can't find it.
;D
the Install was 1 megawatt. test ran to 480 kilowatt.
Quote from: TEKTRON on November 28, 2011, 01:13:55 AM
the Install was 1 megawatt. test ran to 480 kilowatt.
;D Thanks TEKTRON.
GOLLY. Well I rest my case. I'd have settled for anything at all if it's usable. It's still good news.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
I agree with you and I see the October 28th test of the 1MW plant as a success since over unity was achieved. After all, any over unity is good over unity in my book too.
The reason I was disappointed with the 470Kw output (according to PESN.com.) on the day of testing (which will slightly vary from one article to the next) is because I knew it would give skeptics something to try and dismiss the whole technology with. And like I predicted, that was one of the very first things they starting crying foul about when the results were announced.
It would have been nice if the device had been properly pretested so that this glitch could have been worked out before the whole world was watching. Then the skeptics would not have had any room to criticize the output at least.
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 28, 2011, 01:32:20 AM
@Rosemary:
I agree with you and I see the October 28th test of the 1MW plant as a success since over unity was achieved. After all, any over unity is good over unity in my book too.
The reason I was disappointed with the 470Kw output (according to PESN.com.) on the day of testing (which will slightly vary from one article to the next) is because I knew it would give skeptics something to try and dismiss the whole technology with. And like I predicted, that was one of the very first things they starting crying foul about when the results were announced.
It would have been nice if the device had been properly pretested so that this glitch could have been worked out before the whole world was watching. Then the skeptics would not have had any room to criticize the output at least.
Chess
Hi Chess. Still there? I normally wait for our time difference adjustments to get your replies. So nice.
INDEED. Any result is a good result provided its COP>1. Golly. ;D And the truth is that even our ruddy detractors have to acknowledge that this result is extraordinary. It would be unreasonable to quibble. But again. You're right. They'll use anything to hand.
I suspect that Rossi's device is still brittle. That's understandable. How long did it take to get our standard generators to a reliable level of performance? I'm not sure of the answer. But I'm reasonably certain it took more than two publicly demonstrated tests. I'd have thought.
;D
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-new-sale-of-1-mw-e-cat-plant-made-to-normal-customer/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/11/rossi-new-sale-of-1-mw-e-cat-plant-made-to-normal-customer/)
@bullsnbears1:
I read this article and this is great news indeed. I also read a separate article that explains where Rossi has most recently been. He has recently been to the state of Massachusetts where he met with Senate minority leader, Bruce Tarr. “My thought process was pretty simple: If it works, I want this technology to be developed and manufactured in Massachusetts,’’ Tarr said.
After the meeting, Rossi, who paid his own way to Massachusetts, was enthusiastic about a possible partnership with the state. “Massachusetts has the density of technology and the customers we need,’’ he said. “Also, it does not have the bureaucracy that we have in Italy.’’
Rossi said he would also like to develop smaller household cold fusion power generators in Massachusetts. “I’m already planning to come back soon,’’ he said. “We are all hoping to get something started in a matter of weeks, not months.’’
Here's a link to the full article by The Boston Globe:
http://bostonglobe.com/business/2011/11/28/hope-skepticism-for-cold-fusion/w7FgGyI9Zx432chxuD5BEL/story.html
Chess
WOW
I KEEP READING THAT BOSTON GLOBE ARTICLE AND THEN READ IT AGAIN.
I'LL GET BACK HERE.
WELL DONE FOR THAT UPDATE CHESS. WHAT A PLEASURE TO WAKE UP TO THIS. A GLIMMER OF STANDARD MEDIA COVERAGE. It's the spark that will light the fire.
So. Nice.
Rosemry
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 28, 2011, 11:50:34 PM
WOW
I KEEP READING THAT BOSTON GLOBE ARTICLE AND THEN READ IT AGAIN.
I'LL GET BACK HERE.
WELL DONE FOR THAT UPDATE CHESS. WHAT A PLEASURE TO WAKE UP TO THIS. A GLIMMER OF STANDARD MEDIA COVERAGE. It's the spark that will light the fire.
So. Nice.
Rosemry
@Rosemary:
Yes, the E-Cat technology is finally starting to materialize. Also, a significant member of the U.S. government is getting involved which should aid to fast track the whole process of introducing this revolutionary new technology to the American public. Gaining traction in the mainstream media doesn't hurt either ;D
This is a major step in the awakening of the whole world towards OVER UNITY :o
Best regards,
Chess
Hello Guys,
I've deleted a letter here. It's OTT and is hardly likely to engender the good will that one requires from our media. In fact I've even gone to the lengths of apologising to the editor. I think I allowed myself a little to much license.
Sorry about that. I'll rework it and hopefully a tamer version can get published. One hopes. Because interest is required in the promotion of this new field then a certain amount of respect would probably help.
Ever older guys. And hopefully a tad wiser.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Guys,
I've just spoken to the editor of the ***** where I sent that letter. A Mr ***** - the night editor. He advises me that they are NOT going to publish ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT COLD FUSION.
I asked 'why is that *****?'
For some reason he put the phone down on me. ::) What ever next?
Poor lad. I suspect his under instructions. And I may even know the reason. I strongly suspect that our Government is anxious to keep this knowledge out of the public eye. At least until they've signed those contracts for our two brand new nuclear power plants. But why is ***** or anyone outside of Eskom or the Government - then co-operating with the Government? Puzzling.
Golly. I don't think I'm a popular lady at the moment. Who'd have thought?
Rosemary
JUST A QUICK UPDATE. The day editor is not averse to publishing that letter. ;D It'll be interesting. I'll let you all know.
;D
Another edit. I've taken out the man's name and the newspaper's name. But I'll leave the balance here for the record. It's a salutary reminder about the license to 'rudeness' that our media assume when they also ASSUME that they're dealing with 'crackpot ideas' about 'crackpot science'. Good heavens. Those disinformants have done an exceptionally good job in slurring the science related to these 'cold fusion' claims. 'cold fusion' was an unfortunate misnomer. And no-one understands the science - let alone the lay public. It's just amazing that our media feel so free to comment on matters scientific and what is acceptable and what is not. I would have thought that's better left to the expert. And they've come out solidly in support of the evidence.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Everyone:
Defkalion is claiming to have exact knowledge of Rossi's reactor's secret ingredients. Defkalion:
“I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (...) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,â€
This ought to be interesting:
"Tomorrow on Wednesday November 30th, Defkalion has planned a presentation of its products, and has announced that the the technology will be certified and tested by an independent party."
Here's a link to the full article:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece (http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece)
They even claimed in the article to have improved on Rossi's technology. Maybe some early serious competition for Rossi after all? We'll see tomorrow...
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on November 29, 2011, 08:04:33 PM
@Everyone:
Defkalion is claiming to have exact knowledge of Rossi's reactor's secret ingredients. Defkalion:
“I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (...) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,â€
This ought to be interesting:
"Tomorrow on Wednesday November 30th, Defkalion has planned a presentation of its products, and has announced that the the technology will be certified and tested by an independent party."
Here's a link to the full article:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece (http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece)
They even claimed in the article to have improved on Rossi's technology. Maybe some early serious competition for Rossi after all? We'll see tomorrow...
Regards,
Chess
Hi Chess,
I read that article. I can sympathise with Rossi's reluctance to do further business there. lol It's not the first time that the guys at Defkalion have claimed to 'know everything'. He was also going to show us a working device some days back. I wouldn't hold your breath. And regarding that spectroscopy thing - I think it was Professor Del Giudice, in any event it was the guy who took all those instruments to that test. He tried to get a spectroscopy reading and Rossi interrupted the tests until this was sorted. It was reported that Rossi was 'upset'. I got the distinct impression that Rossi 'lost it'. In any event. If they or even Defkalion actually KNOW the secret ingredients - then they'd be fools to 'tell all' - especially if they're setting up in competition. Otherwise they can't 'tell all'. So. My guess it's just bluff and blunder. But how WONDERFUL if I'm wrong. Then? Just about anyone can get into competition - which is exactly your point.
What intrigues me is this. The minute any of those units go for sale then - at that moment Rossi releases his 'patent secrets' assuming there are any. Surely? One can contract with a buyer that he NEVER reveals the 'secret' - but that buyer can exercise his rights of purchase to resell should he wish to. I'd have thought. At which point he's exonerated from that obligation? I have no idea if this is even half way right. In any event. Hopefully that means we'll get some healthy competition. My ONLY interest is in buying a unit. Hopefully it will be within my pocket range. I've put my name down, in any event.
Best as ever,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 29, 2011, 09:10:39 PM
What intrigues me is this. The minute any of those units go for sale then - at that moment Rossi releases his 'patent secrets' assuming there are any. Surely? One can contract with a buyer that he NEVER reveals the 'secret' - but that buyer can exercise his rights of purchase to resell should he wish to.
Two options:
1) There is no secret other than a common recipe (e.g. a pressure/temperature range)
2) A contract that prohibits reverse enginering and resale.
PRAXEN - DEFKALION GREEN TECHNOLOGIES GLOBAL
PRESS RELEASE
Wednesday 30th November, 2011
Today, and through our company website, Praxen - Defkalion Green Technologies Global has disclosed its current work on Nickel and Hydrogen exothermic reaction using Chemically Assisted Low Energy Nuclear Reactions.
The provided Technical Specifications Sheet is a first preparation of our pre-industrial Hyperion product. This data has been tested with progress made towards the design of a final product ready for market entry in 2012.
Hyperion products will be introduced into the global market with applications for buildings, agriculture and industrial energy needs.
Beyond the completion of the final product with all necessary certificates, our company has three key objectives for 2012:
1. Agreements with companies for exclusive licenses according to country / territory
We have received interest in our license agreements from 850 companies from 60 countries. They have already received an invitation for testing our products on the basis of a license for their country. We expect to sign contracts in 2012 and have already started talks.
2. Third party independent tests for scientific purposes and advancement of theory
Praxen - Defkalion Green Technologies is a strong supporter of LENR technologies globally. Greece can become the global centre for R&D on LENR technologies. We have already received numerous requests from leading scientific authorities, academic institutions and national laboratories from key countries to conduct tests on our products. Our policy is to accept their requests, under agreed protocol, and to allow publication of their findings. The process of agreeing to dates for such tests depends on the availability of our staff and labs, keeping in mind that we run a business, not a technology show room.
3. R&D-based joint venture partnerships with companies in niche market applications
There are many applications that stand alone Hyperion products cannot service. In these cases, we will enter into joint venture agreements with companies that have specialized know-how and technologies in their field, but who will be able to utilize and capitalize on our technology to create entirely new products with ours. Examples of such partnerships have come from interested companies in the fields of marine propulsion, water desalination, off-shore drilling, trains, telecom towers, heavy vehicles, and micro energy sources. These agreements will be consistent with Praxen - Defkalion Green Technologies Global product development and R&D efforts.
[source: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/Press_Release_30Nov2011_Praxen_Defkalion_Green_Technologies.pdf (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/Press_Release_30Nov2011_Praxen_Defkalion_Green_Technologies.pdf) ]
Product leaflet : see attached pdf
(pretty impressive!! )
[source: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/HyperionSpecsSheetNovember2011.pdf (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/HyperionSpecsSheetNovember2011.pdf) ]
Quote from: teslaalset on November 30, 2011, 10:07:50 AM
PRAXEN - DEFKALION GREEN TECHNOLOGIES GLOBAL
PRESS RELEASE
Wednesday 30th November, 2011
Today, and through our company website, Praxen - Defkalion Green Technologies Global has disclosed its current work on Nickel and Hydrogen exothermic reaction using Chemically Assisted Low Energy Nuclear Reactions.
The provided Technical Specifications Sheet is a first preparation of our pre-industrial Hyperion product. This data has been tested with progress made towards the design of a final product ready for market entry in 2012.
Hyperion products will be introduced into the global market with applications for buildings, agriculture and industrial energy needs.
Beyond the completion of the final product with all necessary certificates, our company has three key objectives for 2012:
1. Agreements with companies for exclusive licenses according to country / territory
We have received interest in our license agreements from 850 companies from 60 countries. They have already received an invitation for testing our products on the basis of a license for their country. We expect to sign contracts in 2012 and have already started talks.
2. Third party independent tests for scientific purposes and advancement of theory
Praxen - Defkalion Green Technologies is a strong supporter of LENR technologies globally. Greece can become the global centre for R&D on LENR technologies. We have already received numerous requests from leading scientific authorities, academic institutions and national laboratories from key countries to conduct tests on our products. Our policy is to accept their requests, under agreed protocol, and to allow publication of their findings. The process of agreeing to dates for such tests depends on the availability of our staff and labs, keeping in mind that we run a business, not a technology show room.
3. R&D-based joint venture partnerships with companies in niche market applications
There are many applications that stand alone Hyperion products cannot service. In these cases, we will enter into joint venture agreements with companies that have specialized know-how and technologies in their field, but who will be able to utilize and capitalize on our technology to create entirely new products with ours. Examples of such partnerships have come from interested companies in the fields of marine propulsion, water desalination, off-shore drilling, trains, telecom towers, heavy vehicles, and micro energy sources. These agreements will be consistent with Praxen - Defkalion Green Technologies Global product development and R&D efforts.
[source: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/Press_Release_30Nov2011_Praxen_Defkalion_Green_Technologies.pdf (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/Press_Release_30Nov2011_Praxen_Defkalion_Green_Technologies.pdf) ]
Product leaflet : see attached pdf
(pretty impressive!! )
[source: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/HyperionSpecsSheetNovember2011.pdf (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/HyperionSpecsSheetNovember2011.pdf) ]
Golly Teslaalset
Not sure what to make of all this. I went into their spec sheets and couldn't then copy the info to paste it here unless I was a member? I went straight to the 'raw materials' where they published - from memory - sulphur - oxygen - nitrogen - iron and cobalt. Are all those ingredients necessary? And in precisely that ratio? And I was rather perturbed at the fact that they had not yet shown a device in operation.
In any event. I really don't care that much. Frankly - if I had my 'druthers' I'd sooner back Rossi. Only because, unlike Defkalion, he didn't first steal the technology from anyone at all. But I think Chess is spot on. This is just the first outright attempt at thieving the technology. I know something about this. And I don't think the Chinese are inclined to hold back when it comes to either applying or copying anything at all. Which means that it's going to be ridiculous to try and patent any part of this. I do hope so.
I must say I sympathise with Rossi for breaking ties with these guys. They're rather blatantly unscrupulous and proud of it. And as for those hundreds of companies from 60 odd countries - that are apparently 'beating a path to their door'? It would have been nice to disclose which companies exactly. That, after all, was demanded of Rossi. One hopes they're not setting this up to discredit the technology.
Anyway. It'll be interesting. But I'm only going to follow this progress when they show us that working demonstration. Until then I'll just see where Rossi's going with all this.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on November 30, 2011, 10:13:46 PM
Golly Teslaalset
Not sure what to make of all this. I went into their spec sheets and couldn't then copy the info to paste it here unless I was a member? I went straight to the 'raw materials' where they published - from memory - sulphur - oxygen - nitrogen - iron and cobalt. Are all those ingredients necessary? And in precisely that ratio? And I was rather perturbed at the fact that they had not yet shown a device in operation.
In any event. I really don't care that much. Frankly - if I had my 'druthers' I'd sooner back Rossi. Only because, unlike Defkalion, he didn't first steal the technology from anyone at all. But I think Chess is spot on. This is just the first outright attempt at thieving the technology. I know something about this. And I don't think the Chinese are inclined to hold back when it comes to either applying or copying anything at all. Which means that it's going to be ridiculous to try and patent any part of this. I do hope so.
I must say I sympathise with Rossi for breaking ties with these guys. They're rather blatantly unscrupulous and proud of it. And as for those hundreds of companies from 60 odd countries - that are apparently 'beating a path to their door'? It would have been nice to disclose which companies exactly. That, after all, was demanded of Rossi. One hopes they're not setting this up to discredit the technology.
Anyway. It'll be interesting. But I'm only going to follow this progress when they show us that working demonstration. Until then I'll just see where Rossi's going with all this.
Regards,
Rosemary
@All:
I'm with Rosemary. Without a demonstration of a working device, it's not really worth following. It appears to me to be just a press release to keep investors from losing faith and possibly attract new ones. It reminds me of the Orbo minus the working device.
The Orbo technology would appear to hold more promise but as of yet, they have not offered a product for sale. Just years of "It works...". And if they really do have a legitimate technology, then it would be very silly for them to continue to sit on it indefinitely.
I'm not very picky when it comes to over unity. I am willing to purchase any over unity device so long as it works and the manufacturer is willing to allow me to verify a working device in person (which is what Rossi is allowing).
Regards,
Chess
Don't shoot the messenger, I am only forwarding the latest news.
Frankly, I don't care about this commercial fight, I rather like to look at the bigger picture here.
It's clear that something very relevant is boiling here. Literally.
The fact that there is already a serous competitor shows that it's even more proove Rossi is not a one off scammer.
There will be much more public fights on this soon.
That's always the case when it involves big amounts of money.
But that's only minor news.
The main thing is that something will change the global energy landscape in a very rapid paste.
And even that may be the beginning of other area's of new developments.
Once this process is understood, more spectacular things will happen.
Quote from: teslaalset on December 01, 2011, 03:35:34 AM
Don't shoot the messenger, I am only forwarding the latest news.
Frankly, I don't care about this commercial fight, I rather like to look at the bigger picture here.
It's clear that something very relevant is boiling here. Literally.
The fact that there is already a serous competitor shows that it's even more proove Rossi is not a one off scammer.
There will be much more public fights on this soon.
That's always the case when it involves big amounts of money.
But that's only minor news.
The main thing is that something will change the global energy landscape in a very rapid paste.
And even that may be the beginning of other area's of new developments.
Once this process is understood, more spectacular things will happen.
I agree with you. It's all good. I actually answered this and lost the post. Is there something wrong with the connectivity here with OU.com. It's been rather brittle - all day. Off and on.
Anyway - as you say Teslaalset - everything's moving in the right direction and AT PACE. What could be better. Surprisingly little attention from our forum members though.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on December 01, 2011, 08:58:42 AM
I agree with you. It's all good. I actually answered this and lost the post. Is there something wrong with the connectivity here with OU.com. It's been rather brittle - all day. Off and on.
Anyway - as you say Teslaalset - everything's moving in the right direction and AT PACE. What could be better. Surprisingly little attention from our forum members though.
Regards,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
I find this way too obvious to ignore or dismiss as well. The little attention this revolutionary technology is getting is very ironic for an "over unity" forum but it may help to separate those who are genuinely here for the cause of over unity and those who are here for other purposes.
Rossi put out a statement today regarding his old crooked business partners. Here's the link to that:
http://ecatnews.com/?p=1526 (http://ecatnews.com/?p=1526)
In my opinion, Andrea Rossi is taking all the right steps in order to advance LENR. You have to bring it to market with protection so wealthy interests can not buy it out from underneath of you and punish anyone who replicates it because this has been the case up until Rossi. And then there's the scams. People who will not let you test it yourself even if you are a serious paying customer. The previous scams have revolved around such schemes as:
· We have to wait until we have 10,000 buyers paid up in full before we can ship the product.
· We will ship the product in two years (and then when 2 years go by with still no delivery of the product, the shipping date get pushed back even further).
· Then there’s the Orbo approach. What a wax job that is.
· Then there's the disappearing company where the owner leaves the country with all the money and hides.
I like Rossi's business model (the test drive part especially) and his rapid advance into the commercialization stage. At last an over unity inventor with an equally impressive business approach.
Regards,
Chess
Hi Guys,
Here's what occurs to me. I buy an E-Cat unit. I then dismantle the system and learn how it works. I then re-assemble the unit and go into production. Then I make boat loads of money. Rossi sues me. I defend the action - but a Court Order determines that I must pay Rossi what? The patent protects 'not' the knowledge 'but' the right to enrichment from that knowledge. The most patent holders earn is 3% or thereby of net profits - or, where it can be pre-negotiated - gross profits. If a court rules that this is owing then I'd pay it gladly. ALSO. Even if it didn't go to court I'd gladly pay Rossi - in advance - lest it go to Court.
As I understand it - right now there is no law that prevents the 'duplication' of any technology. But I also know that provisional patents carry something like a year's absolute INTERNATIONAL protection to ensure that there's time to 'cover' the technology adequately and to let everyone argue their prior knowledge claims. The weakness of this technology is that there's no 'reasonable' explanation within the standard model. Their 'best shot' is to argue a weak nuclear reaction. But that does not allow for the transmutation of elements without some emissions. Bottom line they're going to argue the 'theory' in support of the evidence. The question is does that negate the force of the patent? I doubt it. Because the Law MUST protect the working technology regardless. Isn't there a lawyer reading here who could comment?
Think about it. The Wright brothers - to the best of my knowledge - did not patent their planes. But they were flown well in advance of the 'theory' in support of it. The atom bomb was developed when the question related to the feasibility of 'splitting the atom' was still raging in and out of academic circles. The assumption had been that the transmutation of elements first needed the improbable access to a power source equal to the force of a super nova. And then there's the final problem. Which is this. The only thing, to the best of my knowledge - that CANNOT be patented - is a natural force. In other words - technically NO-ONE will be able to patent LENR - or call it what you like - technology. All that can be patented is the idiosyncratic use of catalytic materials - or those materials that can sustain this process. We also know that there have been results - albeit not that dramatic - with the use of palladium and deuterium. Rossi is using nickle and hydrogen. Who is to say that someone wont find other and better 'mixes'. And there is NO way that Rossi can patent the full 'gamut'. Nor can he patent LENR.
To my way of thinking - there is going to a harvest of variations to this. And hopefully each one will come with a different producer. And each one will, quite possibly, carry it's own rights to patent. What we all need to keep in mind is this. Rossi has made his technology PUBLIC. That's really big. I know the poor guy has been the victim of jealous self-interests in his previous business ventures with Petroldragon. That was a public humiliation. And his subsequent exoneration from guilt was - for reasons best known to our media - made considerably LESS public. This new venture of his is 'in the face' of those detractors. Retrospectively - it is highly likely to all become the absolute FINAL VINDICATION. I'm sure that for this reason alone - Rossi would be out of reach of anyone who bribes him to 'bury' his technology.
But more the point. Rossi would know that this technology comes with some considerable risk of competition. And I'm absolutely satisfied that he does not care. There's obviously more than enough money to go around. He's got a head start. And it's very likely that his own 'personal mix' is cheap enough and abundant enough to ensure its continued use. Quite apart from which, the guy is very obviously COURAGEOUS and INVENTIVE. That's big in my book. So. Give me a choice between an E-Cat or anything else on the market, then I'll go E-cat. The guy is already a legend in my book. Golly. He's come up with the FINAL SOLUTION to our rather heavy dependencies on energy. WHAT A STAR.
Sorry to go on and on. But it's SUCH a WONDERFUL SUBJECT.
Kindest
Rosemary
Quote from: chessnyt on December 01, 2011, 08:31:34 PM
@Rosemary:
I find this way too obvious to ignore or dismiss as well. The little attention this revolutionary technology is getting is very ironic for an "over unity" forum but it may help to separate those who are genuinely here for the cause of over unity and those who are here for other purposes.
Rossi put out a statement today regarding his old crooked business partners. Here's the link to that:
http://ecatnews.com/?p=1526 (http://ecatnews.com/?p=1526)
In my opinion, Andrea Rossi is taking all the right steps in order to advance LENR. You have to bring it to market with protection so wealthy interests can not buy it out from underneath of you and punish anyone who replicates it because this has been the case up until Rossi. And then there's the scams. People who will not let you test it yourself even if you are a serious paying customer. The previous scams have revolved around such schemes as:
· We have to wait until we have 10,000 buyers paid up in full before we can ship the product.
· We will ship the product in two years (and then when 2 years go by with still no delivery of the product, the shipping date get pushed back even further).
· Then there’s the Orbo approach. What a wax job that is.
· Then there's the disappearing company where the owner leaves the country with all the money and hides.
I like Rossi's business model (the test drive part especially) and his rapid advance into the commercialization stage. At last an over unity inventor with an equally impressive business approach.
Regards,
Chess
Quite right Chess. I absolutely agree with this. Regarding the 'lack of interest'. Actually your thread is well read. Just not that well subscribed. But what is absolutely BEWILDERING is that there's NOTHING on our other 'energy'.com type forums. What gives? I think the real problem is that everyone here was rather hoping to 'lead' with the evidence. And
their hopes - for reasons better understood by themselves - are not quite 'dead'. ;D They should be. The IDEAL technology seems to be to hand.
Either that or they're actually more interested in testing and discussing than in finding a solution. OR - God forbid - they're in that number who simply debate the evidence. No intended progression EVER. OR. A combination of the above. I must say. This rather puts paid to developing anything at all beyond what Rossi has got. I know that's my take on all this. The man's clearly an experimental GENIUS. But it does rather put our own efforts into the shade somewhat. And by that I mean the work of just about everyone on these forums. Not that they're not of value. I think that this over unity drive of ours - has certainly played its part in the development of awareness. And I know that, deep down, we were all compelled to add our bit to that pool of knowledge. But I also think we've now got a solution worthy of our very best reach here.
What I do expect now though is that someone will put together that perpetual motion motor that's eluded us all thus far. Wouldn't that be grand? Then we've tackled the energy problem from every possible angle. That would be the most elegant solution yet. A magnet that keeps spinning - and keeps generating an electric current. NO INPUT REQUIRED. LOL. And better yet - how about anti gravity machines? LENR technology isn't going to advance that. Plenty work still needed.
;D
So. The challenges keep coming.
As ever,
Rosemary
edited
Rosemary,
Most of us are fully aware of this technology. It's just that we can do nothing about it. It contains secrets never to be disclosed in the form of a catalyst. Also it's not available. There are 7 billion people in the world. I'd probably be dead by the time he gets round to me. Rossi is going the way of the globalist wether he likes it or not. Does he produce a 6 KW unit first? No he does not. He goes for megawatts. What's next? Gigawatts? Tesla went the same way even though he was a genius. However, there's a real possibility on other forums of inventors open sourcing now they know the game is up. The most interesting so far is the Kapanadze forum. Things appear to be happening with replicators realising the game is up. They either open source and become folk heroes or disappear into obscurity. I think you should carry on developing your heater! There's room for variety in the world.
BTW if Rossi carries on with megawatts, it'll go the way of all big business. Water is free. Is your water bill fee? Niagara is a source of "free energy". Do the subscribers get cheap electricity? Once the big boys and the banks move in, they benefit and we lose. Generating your own power and getting rid of big brother is the aim of most of us. I hope this makes the apparent apathy clearer.
:)
Quote from: a.king21 on December 02, 2011, 06:44:16 AM
Rosemary,
Most of us are fully aware of this technology. It's just that we can do nothing about it. It contains secrets never to be disclosed in the form of a catalyst. Also it's not available. There are 7 billion people in the world. I'd probably be dead by the time he gets round to me.
Golly a.king. That's a tad defeatist. I don't think, as I've said, that you can keep the catalyst secret once the technology is sold. And if chess is half way right - which I'm sure he is - there's going to some pretty robust competition. I wouldn't be quite so down beat here.
And once we've got competition then there'll be no stopping it.
Plenty to look forward to - I'm sure.
;) :D
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Hello guys, Chess, everyone,
I've managed to reach Rossi. Have forwarded the papers and have followed up with a synopsis.
The link's here.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/12/204-at-last.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/12/204-at-last.html)
Now I just pray I'll hear more from him.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on December 04, 2011, 12:02:14 AM
Hello guys, Chess, everyone,
I've managed to reach Rossi. Have forwarded the papers and have followed up with a synopsis.
The link's here.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/12/204-at-last.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/12/204-at-last.html)
Now I just pray I'll hear more from him.
@Rosemary:
Good going! I know he's a very busy man right now (changing the world and all) but he does take time out to respond and make statements.
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on December 04, 2011, 12:26:58 AM
@Rosemary:
Good going! I know he's a very busy man right now (changing the world and all) but he does take time out to respond and make statements.
Chess
Indeed he's busy. Apparently does 18 hour a day. Am over the moon that he's responded. I'll let you know what gives.
It's all good Chess.
;D
Nasa LENR slides:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Bushnell-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Nelson-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Zawodny-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf
Quote from: IronShell3d on December 04, 2011, 08:01:05 PM
Nasa LENR slides:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Bushnell-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Bushnell-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf)
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Nelson-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Nelson-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf)
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Zawodny-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/government/NASA/20110922NASA-Zawodny-GRC-LENR-Workshop.pdf)
Great info!
Thanks for sharing.
Sure make you wonder why Nasa waited until Rossi had started to make demonstrations of massive amounts of excess heat before they chose to back LENR reactions as really happening? ???
Now Nasa's chief scientist in effect says, Oops sorry we skipped over LENR reactions. We should take a step back and utilize them to totally change the way we generate and use energy.
About time. Only 22 years late. BTW Pons and Fleischmann are due a BIG apology and a Nobel.
A bit strange in the Nelson powerpoint:
"Catalyst is consumed in about 6 months time"
Catalists don't take part of any reactions by definition.
I mentioned it earlier, there is something peculiar on this so-called 'catalist'.
After 6 months in the Rossi device, 60% of the the Nickel power is reported to have been transmutated into Copper and must be replaced.
Quote from: IronShell3d on December 05, 2011, 05:09:07 AM
Sure make you wonder why Nasa waited until Rossi had started to make demonstrations of massive amounts of excess heat before they chose to back LENR reactions as really happening? ???
Now Nasa's chief scientist in effect says, Oops sorry we skipped over LENR reactions. We should take a step back and utilize them to totally change the way we generate and use energy.
About time. Only 22 years late. BTW Pons and Fleischmann are due a BIG apology and a Nobel.
Could not agree with you more. Here's that 'skip' you referred to.
"We went directly from Chemical to
strong force Nuc
and in the process
bought huge energetics improvements
and radiation protection/ safety issues
that precluded fission nuc application,
We leapt over the weak
interaction energetics landscape
except for radiologics.
It is time to backâ€track……."
I believe that some of those LENR experimentalists actually got their system running for upwards of 100 days. Where Rossi pipped them all was in getting the application to substantial wattage - and under conditions where he could also replicate the effect reliably. AND HE WENT PUBLIC with his demonstrations. Where the others were discussing the evidence behind closed doors, Rossi was trying to publish the results. To no avail I might add.
But that link is an eye opener. Needless to say I plan to forward this to my favourite Editor in Chief. It may help to 'chip away' at all that prejudice.Guys. The reason that none of the other forums are discussing all this is simply because it's pulled the rug from under their feet. Most of these forums get their members and readership from fairly eccentric experimentalists and let's face it. Rossi's made our best efforts look somewhat ham fisted. It's rendered 'respectable' what used to be entirely 'fanciful'. I think they're all going through an identity crisis. ;D
But NOTA BENE. Fleishman and Pons were treated to the brutal effects of 'popular opinion'. And to our credit - there's no-one here who's ever subscribed to popular opinion. Here's where we can all be proud. This should be a salutary reminder to our academics that they can, indeed, be WRONG - on just so many issues. Unfortunately it's a lesson that will be ENTIRELY forgotten in no time at all. And there's that shameful facility of that 'academic public' who will deny EVER supporting that attack. Just so typical.Anyway. Let them rewrite their history as they will. I think you're right. Fleishmann and Pons should get a NOBEL or that entire award system will become a joke. It'll represent NOT actual discovery and genius - but simply popular opinion.
Thank you for that link IronShell. I'm constantly amazed at you all in finding these links. One day I hope to learn your tricks and see how to find things out for myself. And it's an ENORMOUS comfort to see our NASA scientists leading the advancement of all this. Long overdue.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
I suspect NASA is playing catch up. Those documents were not openly released by NASA. They were obtained under a Freedom of Information request. Expect to see a lot of people who have slammed LENR in the past, now ducking for cover.
Quote from: IronShell3d on December 05, 2011, 11:35:56 PM
... Expect to see a lot of people who have slammed LENR in the past, now ducking for cover.
;D
Indeed.
Quote from: teslaalset on December 05, 2011, 06:21:25 AM
snip..
Catalists don't take part of any reactions by definition.
snip..
That would be a narrow definition. Consumable catalysts such as a source of heat to start a reaction, but not required to maintain the reaction were among my favourite childhood resources.
Picture this.
In my left hand I'm holding a fireworks cracker, and in my right hand I'm holding a lit match : - the source of heat catalyst which I apply to the fireworks cracker wick, before throwing it and running ! :P
Cheers
Guys - I have now been in correspondence with Rossi. He's generously proposed to publish our papers in his Journal and we're honoured to take him up on this. We've now 'officially' withdrawn our papers from the IEEE and have resubmitted them.
It's fortunate that he's an independent thinker. Our trolls will, no doubt, rush to prevent this publication. But I'm reasonably satisfied that the paper is sound. It's been vetted by some very prestigious academics and, apart from an error in one of our definitions - it's only solicited favourable comment.
I also took the trouble to delete the appendix to the first part of that paper which referenced Poynt.99's open sourced work on the sims. This because Poynt will INEVITABLY object to any reference of his work. So. Hopefully before Christmas we'll have something available for our academics to argue about. Our own contribution is small. And, bear in mind, has absolutely no competitive advantage to Rossi's technology. Nowhere near. The best we can do is offer some 'weighty' and clumsy batteries, where he uses a spoonful of nickle and a whisper of hydrogen. That's entirely outclassed our best efforts.
So all. Am delighted with this exposure and - with luck - the debate can progress to the forum where it belongs. Which is not with me but with our academic experts.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Lewis Larsen is interviewed on the WL theory of LENR reactions. It's well worth the time (about 1 hour) to listen to it all, especially the historic references to what he believes are past LENR occurrences that have been brushed aside and forgotten. He starts talking at 3:20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRLcC21F14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRLcC21F14)
Quote from: IronShell3d on December 06, 2011, 10:24:25 PM
Lewis Larsen is interviewed on the WL theory of LENR reactions. It's well worth the time (about 1 hour) to listen to it all, especially the historic references to what he believes are past LENR occurrences that have been brushed aside and forgotten. He starts talking at 3:20: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRLcC21F14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRLcC21F14)
I've been over and over that clip IronShell. Very intrigued by some of the statements. On the whole though Larson seems to be suggesting that LENR can be used directly as a battery source to generate electric currents rather than heat? Is that right? It will be interesting and I wish him well. That would certainly be an improvement. But frankly I think that the he will not be able to side step the 'heat signature' and - sensibly - that's what Rossi has managed and USED - to amazing effect.
If indeed, LENR is a unifying theory - then that's a very good thing. And if he can get it to a battery operated number - then that's better yet. There's one thing that I know - with absolute certainty. IF indeed LENR is a complete explanation for energy abundance - then our theoreticians will endorse it. That's a given. It is a constant source of comfort that - whatever else one says against our academics - they do NOT argue when the logic stacks. It's only in the absence of logic that they 'attack'. That was, as he mentioned, the Achilles heel of Fleishman and Pons. The sad part here is that neither Fleishman nor Pons suggested that Cold Fusion was the explanation. Only that it was the 'effect'. The attack that they generated from our academics was disproportionate and undeserved. And I'm of the opinion that this 'contempt' was widely broadcasted by our media by the timeous intervention of our trolls with their competing interests. They broadcasted an alleged claim which was never fact, and then capitalised on it. Which brings me back to that conspiracy thing and the unwitting part our media play in this.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Actually guys - I'm irritated. I went to great lengths to be tactful in my previous post. Here's what makes me want to climb walls. Larson states, unequivocally - that Fleishman and Pons deserved that flaunted disrespect because they 'claimed' a non-existent 'fusion' effect when there was no evidence of transmutations. Yet Larson is claiming transmutations and that he's effecting this with ease. He says that the 'key' to finding this is in nano technology. But he has not, apparently, even got the funding for his research into this - yet.
I would suggest that it is as important to vindicate Fleishman and Pons as it is to study the EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE of Rossi. And then, when LENR is EVER accepted as a COMPLETE THEORY - then we can all be grateful to Larson. Frankly NASA have NOT endorsed their theory. Nor has anyone. Not publicly. It will certainly be incontestable when, and if, they manage those 'batteries' that generate NOT HEAT - but electric current flow. Then I would strongly recommend endorsement. As he mentioned it's still 5 or so years away. And until we have that evidence - I'd suggest we simply concentrate on using all that efficiency that Rossi has made available to us. At lest we won't have to wait.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Everybody:
Great discussions are happening here and it is wonderful to see this technology get its well deserved attention. Kudos to everyone who is contributing. And if there are people on the sidelines that are a little nervous or intimidated to feel like posting here; please don't be because the science behind this technology is not fully understood as of yet and therefore there are no wrong answers. At least that anyone can prove.
And if there are those who find "LENR" to be out of their area of expertise; then at least feel free to share your thoughts and opinions (e.g. maybe about how this will effect the world and in what specific way). It is certainly out of my area of expertise so you would be joining my own category.
I just thought I would post some of the latest comments/statements from Andrea Rossi himself. These statement were quoted from PESN.com Enjoy:
Latest from Rossi Andrea Rossi December 8th, 2011 at 4:23 PM (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563&cpage=4#comment-142311) Dear Steve:
We are working very hard to make our plants. Today, for example, we have finally selected the primary liquid that will run through the primary circuit to make electric power, a very important achievement along the path of the evolution of out plants, working with our Customer.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
* * * *
Andrea Rossi December 8th, 2011 at 10:06 AM (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563&cpage=3#comment-142093) Dear Franco Morici:
[...]
2- The amount of hydrogen we charge is enormously redundant: only picograms of H react, so that when we charge the reactors most of the H goes away with the purge
3- how we get the pressure inside the reactor is a confidential information
[...]
Warm Regards,
A.R.
* * * *
Andrea Rossi December 8th, 2011 at 9:56 AM (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563&cpage=3#comment-142086) Dear Felize:
1- no. We are not yet ready to produce electric power, even if we are very close. I want also to say that an agreement we reached yesterday will accelerate this development.
[...]
Warm Regards,
A.R.
* * * *
Andrea Rossi December 6th, 2011 at 3:55 PM (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563&cpage=3#comment-140329) Dear A.Casali:
1- At the price we apply now the 1 MW plant pays back itself in 3 years. The expected life is 30 years. Anyway, we foresee to lower the price with the increase of the orders, to allow more economy scale. Our target is to arrive within the year to 1000 Euro/kW.
2- We are working on this issue, see point 1.
3- yes [the industrialization process going to lower the price considerably in the short term]
4- As soon as possible, when the Customer will allow it. Consider that when the name of a Customer of us is published, he is buried under thousands of inquiries, emails, insults, together with good considerations. It is not an issue as easy as you can think. We all need to work in peace, and we have an army of enemies who want to forbid this. Among them the wannabe “third parties who have to make a real test†( which turned out to be all competitors or consultants of them, what a strange coincidence!)
5- I am holding nothing, we are already making our R&D with all our Consultants, and our Customers are accepting our technology already. They don’t care too much who is testing our plants, they care the plants work properly, that’s all they want.
Thank you for your direct and useful questions,
Warm Regards,
A.R.
* * * *
Andrea Rossi December 4th, 2011 at 9:01 AM (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=563&cpage=3#comment-137940) Dear Italo:
I cannot open a camera on our test room, because we make also confidential operations. Only a plant in regular operation in our Customers’ concerns is possible.
Warm Regards,
A.R
Chess
Rosemary: I had the same reaction to Larson and his disrespect for P & F. Good post thanks.
Quote from: Bernie7 on December 09, 2011, 11:23:52 AM
Rosemary: I had the same reaction to Larson and his disrespect for P & F. Good post thanks.
Thanks Bernie,
And welcome to the discussion.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Another point of view:
QuoteEditor, the Tribune: I would like to comment on the Dec. 3 story “MU research chief wants ‘cold fusion’ puzzle solved.†I agree with Professor Robert Duncan on the importance of the scientific method and, furthermore, scientific protocol. Duncan’s suggestion that Andrea Rossi has “empirical results,†however, concerns me. Nobody has seen or tested any Rossi device outside of Rossi’s garage, let alone done so independently. No visiting scientists have been allowed to properly measure and inspect Rossi’s device.
I interviewed Andrea Rossi in Bologna, Italy, on June 15. I had to explain to him the term “control experiment.†Rossi is fluent in English. Once he understood, he said he used “many metals†for a control. Rossi and his colleague Sergio Focardi said they had submitted their paper to multiple scientific journals but that all had rejected the paper unfairly. In fact, they did not submit their paper to any journal, only to arXiv. Rossi published the paper on his blog instead. On camera, Rossi demonstrated to me how his machine worked, a video of which can be found online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E).
By all accounts, the visual evidence was grossly inconsistent with his claim. The list goes on. “Professor Rossi,†as Duncan calls him, has no affiliation with any university. He has a degree in philosophy and a degree in chemical engineering from what CBS calls a “diploma mill.†Anybody involved in the LENR field who condones or, worse, promotes Rossi’s unscientific behavior and claim does himself and the LENR field a tremendous disservice.
Steven B. Krivit, senior editor,
New Energy Times executive director,
New Energy Institute Inc.
369-B Third St., Suite 556
San Rafael, Calif., 94901
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011/dec/09/professor-rossi-cant-back-up-his-claims/ (http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011/dec/09/professor-rossi-cant-back-up-his-claims/)
and this one:
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-11-rossi-e-cat-customers.html
Hello Poynty Point,
Golly. Have you taken over from JouleSeeker here? I have been watching your own forum closely and it occurred to me that you were all trying very hard not to notice the 'elephant in the armchair' - squatting slap bang in the middle of your sitting room. ;D
But I must commend you on your 'due dilligence'. You need to follow the allegations of Steven Krivit very closely. He's an entire authority on matters scientific and chemical - and both Rossi and Professor Sergio Focardi (that 'colleague' that Krivit referred to) need to have the principle of a 'control' experiment - explained in words of not more than one syllable. Thank heavens that Krivit was qualified enough to alert them to this need.
Also. It does, indeed, seem only fair and reasonable to not only protect the buying public from the error of their ways - but that there are those such as you, that take the trouble to warn us all. We would all probably benefit from your own genius which is to apply that trick of denying the evidence in the face of the evidence. Scientifically it's not only profound - but judicious. And while it may not advance new science - then, what the hell. Who needs new science? Certainly not our energy monopolists.
So. Again. All I can say, in conclusion is.... Actually the truth is that I'm lost for words. A rare condition for me.
Here's one.
Golly.
Kindest regards.
Rosie Posie
HEAVILY EDITED.
;D :D :)
And here's another addition and yet more on the subject for anyone who's interested.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/12/208-elephant-in-arm-chair.html
Apologies for a consecutive post. But I missed this.
It seems that Professor Robert Duncan referrred to Rossi's 'empirical results'. Krivit on the other hand insinuates that there are none. On the whole I suppose one should support Krivit over Professor Robert Duncan. Perhaps the accreditation and careful measurements by a mere handful of experts is absolutely NOT to be believed under any circumstances at all. We all know that Krivit is not following an agenda. Nothing could be fairer than that article he published.
Here's that extract.
Again, kindest
Rosemary
I would like to comment on the Dec. 3 story “MU research chief wants ‘cold fusion’ puzzle solved.†I agree with Professor Robert Duncan on the importance of the scientific method and, furthermore, scientific protocol. Duncan’s suggestion that Andrea Rossi has “empirical results,†however, concerns me. Nobody has seen or tested any Rossi device outside of Rossi’s garage, let alone done so independently. No visiting scientists have been allowed to properly measure and inspect Rossi’s device.
Here's the actual article referred to. Slightly less partial - I might add. And nota bene. There's an acknowledgement that these claims are going to keep 'popping up'. That's a euphemism for 'explode into public awareness'
Regards,
Rosemary
Sorry. I published a copy of the entire article. I think I should just have put in the link. Here it is.
http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011/dec/03/mu-research-chief-wants-cold-fusion-puzzle-solved/
Steven B. Krivit is not qualified to hold Rossi's hat. Here is his bio.
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bio/CV-KrivitStevenB.pdf
Quote from: Bernie7 on December 10, 2011, 01:33:57 AM
Steven B. Krivit is not qualified to hold Rossi's hat. Here is his bio.
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bio/CV-KrivitStevenB.pdf (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bio/CV-KrivitStevenB.pdf)
What are "qualifications" based on Bernie? In other words, what would qualify Krivit to comment on or publish in this field?
Sorry about this guys. There's something wrong with that Bold editing function. It does away with paragraphing. I've had to delete that whole post.
I've reposted it hereunder.
Apologies.
R
And yet more apologies. It took me so long to edit that ruddy post that I didn't see you there Bernie. sorry.
TPU-Elite: What qualifications are necessary for Mr. Krivit to report on LENR? Science 101 and losing his huge ego.
Hello again Poynty
As Bernie is nowhere around, may I presume to show you exactly where Krivit loses all credibility in his 'presumption of comment'.
In his letter to the editor he writes...
"I would like to comment on the Dec. 3 story “MU research chief wants ‘cold fusion’ puzzle solved.â€
His first comment is that Professor Duncan erred in his reference to Rossi's 'empirical results. As he states
"I agree with Professor Robert Duncan on the importance of the scientific method and, furthermore, scientific protocol. Duncan’s suggestion that Andrea Rossi has “empirical results,†however, concerns me. Nobody has seen or tested any Rossi device outside of Rossi’s garage, let alone done so independently. No visiting scientists have been allowed to properly measure and inspect Rossi’s device."
His concern that no-one has tested any Rossi Device outside of Rossi's 'garage' as he puts it not only fallacious - but Krivit himself has referenced other work - extensively - as evident in his own article on the 'paper' if such it is, on this, published as early as 2008. If he is specifically referencing Rossi's work - then he's omitted the very PUBLIC accreditation of Focardi, Celani, Stremmenos - Preperata and others all of whom witnessed the demonstration and approved the results demonstrated by ROSSI.A wide number of the public were invited to at least two demonstrations. And they ALL concurred that the results were - as predicted by Rossi.
And why did Krivit need to refer to Rossi's research laboratories as a 'garage'? If that's a garage it's the size of a house. Clearly he's trying to diminish Rossi's work by implying that he's an amateur garage enthusiast. That's where the likes of you and I come into play Poynty. Not Rossi.
Then there's this little gem of innuendo and implication.
"I interviewed Andrea Rossi in Bologna, Italy, on June 15. I had to explain to him the term “control experiment.â€
How's that for a damning piece of utter nonsense. Krivit - with his one year's course of design engineering under his belt and a questionable qualification in business? - implies that he had to teach the likes of Rossi and Focardi - the finer distinctions of required control experiments? And we, the reading public must take this as an accurate account of the facts? Not even I am that naive. And it doesn't stop there. Then there's this.
"Rossi and his colleague Sergio Focardi ....."
Notice how he forgets to mention Sergio's credentials. That's PROFESSOR Sergio Focardi. Anyway - ever onwards. Then he says...
"...(they) said they had submitted their paper to multiple scientific journals but that all had rejected the paper unfairly. In fact, they did not submit their paper to any journal, only to arXiv."
Where is the evidence of this 'allegation'. Because that's a damning statement. In effect he is saying that Focardi and Rossi are LIARS and - for some reason best understood by Krivit - they're also lying to him. If you are going to accuse anyone at all of being LIARS - then show the evidence. Else omit the reference. What a cheek. And if Krivit assumes that anyone at all will believe his allegations over statements made by Rossi and Focardi - then he needs to re-evaluate his own credibility. Thus far, in this very short exercise - his own credibility has been sorely taxed. If Rossi and Focardi reference the fact that they've tried to publish but to no avail then I, for one, am entirely inclined to believe them. Then more.
"On camera, Rossi demonstrated to me how his machine worked, a video of which can be found online at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-8QdVwY98E)
By all accounts, the visual evidence was grossly inconsistent with his claim."
Where - exactly does the visual evidence 'grossly' contradict the claim? What is particularly disgusting in this reach of Krivit is this. Krivit was doing the filming. What has Krivit shown us that is inconsistent with the E-cat cell operating? What he DID show us was a fully operational cell. With the measurements on display. What EXACTLY was inconsistent? Then.
"The list goes on. “Professor Rossi,†as Duncan calls him, has no affiliation with any university. He has a degree in philosophy and a degree in chemical engineering from what CBS calls a “diploma mill.†Anybody involved in the LENR field who condones or, worse, promotes Rossi’s unscientific behavior and claim does himself and the LENR field a tremendous disservice.Steven B. Krivit, senior editor,"
lol. And then this concluding nonsense. Rossi does NOT refer to himself as 'Professor'. Someone called 'Duncan' called him Professor. Unlike Krivit who has ABSOLUTELY NO CHEMISTRY ACCREDITATION - Rossi has a degree in Chemical Engineering AND a degree in philosophy. And WHAT 'UNSCIENTIFIC' behaviour' is Krivit referring to? Rossi behaved the perfect gentleman in front of Krivit and gave him far more time that he deserved. I saw nothing that was UNSCIENTIFIC except the obvious inability of KRIVIT to understand the implications of that demonstration.
So Poynty point. To answer your question. Whatever Krivit's qualifications or otherwise, I'd suggest that his ONLY qualification to comment is as an opportunistic detractor who extends his license to free speech to include the right to malign the good work and good name of anyone he chooses. In which case he's abused his editorial privileges and falls foul of any further credibility. And ass for that 'Steven B Krivit Senior editor' bit. That's an utter insult on the the entire editorial field. After this sample article as a measure of his editorial skills - then I'd earnestly recommend that he change his profession. Not even those who want to detract from cold fusion or LENR - or call it what you will - would want to side with that much partiality. Unless, of course, you do? Then indeed. I rest my case.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
poynt99: I copied your name wrong, sorry, I am a newbe, did not mean to be disrespectful.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AM
I have to throw this in, and I am NOT putting down Rossi, nor am I trying to prove anything, just stating a couple facts.
1) The name of this forum IS Overunity.com, which, I assume, is what we are all looking for here. By that I mean "Overunity" devices. Once the "Source" of the power is ascertained, the device is no longer overunity. (Shoot, Heat Pumps could be said to have COP > 4 for junk units....)
I think over unity is defined as more energy dissipated than delivered. That's definitely NOT within the standard model - not anywhere. Not even in heat pumps.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AM2) This setup, called a "Free Energy Device" in the title, while VERY economical, if the claims are to be believed, it seems that I would have to describe it as a Standard LENR or Fusion Device. (I'm not going to get into a discussion on what it is or isn't, just the basic concept...)
Not sure about this Loner. There's NOTHING standard about LENR or Cold Fusion. In fact they've not yet managed the explanation.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AMEITHER way, it is a "Standard" device, just very efficient and a fantastic thing. The simple fact that it could change the world has no application here.
Again. Nothing 'STANDARD' about this device at all. The least standard quality being that it would INDEED change the world. I'm not sure you can diminish this as readily as you're proposing. Unless you can - perhaps, give us an explanation of LENR. It's eluded the experts - thus far.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AM3) If you have read 1 and 2, you already know what I am about to say. It is not an overunity device, just a fantastic application of some form of nuclear reaction, which puts it into classical devices, and not overunity devices.
Again. If it's some form of nuclear reaction then it needs to be defined.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AMI am assuming that is the reason that more haven't commented on it, as I could make 100's of remarks, some very technical, but that type of thing is not why I am here.
This is a pity Loner. I think even our boffins would be glad of your 'hundreds' of remarks. They're busy scratching their heads. Perhaps you could help them out.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AM
So, not to sound like a complete moron, while I really appreciate the information here, and am a little surprised by the Poynt99 post, I cannot offer anything of value, including opinion, on nuke reactions in an Overunity Forum. Having said that, PLEASE keep posting the info as I enjoy keeping up with the news here, and cross referencing to other news. Just reading the NASA FOIA pdfs, and seeing Rossi acknowledged there, certainly allowed me to give a little more credence to the fantastic work that he has done.
Indeed. It's all good.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AMAll in All, very interesting, and I hope very successful, but still not overunity. (Nasty, aren't I?)
No. Not nasty. Just misinformed.
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AM(Just for Perspective, Matter to energy conversion would not be overunity to me either.....)
Nor is it. You'd be right on the money here Loner.
Regards,
Rosemary
Article about Rossi in a German newspaper:
http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/technik/0,1518,801836,00.html
Quote from: Loner on December 10, 2011, 02:29:13 AM
I have to throw this in, and I am NOT putting down Rossi, nor am I trying to prove anything, just stating a couple facts.
1) The name of this forum IS Overunity.com, which, I assume, is what we are all looking for here. By that I mean "Overunity" devices. Once the "Source" of the power is ascertained, the device is no longer overunity. (Shoot, Heat Pumps could be said to have COP > 4 for junk units....)
2) This setup, called a "Free Energy Device" in the title, while VERY economical, if the claims are to be believed, it seems that I would have to describe it as a Standard LENR or Fusion Device. (I'm not going to get into a discussion on what it is or isn't, just the basic concept...) EITHER way, it is a "Standard" device, just very efficient and a fantastic thing. The simple fact that it could change the world has no application here.
3) If you have read 1 and 2, you already know what I am about to say. It is not an overunity device, just a fantastic application of some form of nuclear reaction, which puts it into classical devices, and not overunity devices. I am assuming that is the reason that more haven't commented on it, as I could make 100's of remarks, some very technical, but that type of thing is not why I am here. This does NOT mean I don't think it's GREAT. I also admit freely that I read EVERY post on it, as well as quite a few other sources of information. (OK, I happen to live near the "Customer", but whatever.... Again, this is NOT why I am here, at this forum.)
So, not to sound like a complete moron, while I really appreciate the information here, and am a little surprised by the Poynt99 post, I cannot offer anything of value, including opinion, on nuke reactions in an Overunity Forum. Having said that, PLEASE keep posting the info as I enjoy keeping up with the news here, and cross referencing to other news. Just reading the NASA FOIA pdfs, and seeing Rossi acknowledged there, certainly allowed me to give a little more credence to the fantastic work that he has done.
All in All, very interesting, and I hope very successful, but still not overunity. (Nasty, aren't I?)
(Just for Perspective, Matter to energy conversion would not be overunity to me either.....)
@Loner:
I appreciate your candor and frankness in your well thought out post and if it was not well thought out in advance, then you are a greater mental giant than I had originally thought (because I have always believed you to be extremely intelligent).
Having said that, I do feel that I have to interject some of my own opinions in response to it as I beg to differ on certain parts of your post.
You state that
“This setup, called a "Free Energy Device" in the title, while VERY economical, if the claims are to be believed, it seems that I would have to describe it as a Standard LENR or Fusion Device. (I'm not going to get into a discussion on what it is or isn't, just the basic concept...) EITHER way, it is a "Standard" device, just very efficient and a fantastic thing. The simple fact that it could change the world has no application here.†Based on your overall assessment, it is NOT a free energy device in spite of the fact that it produces many times over the amount of energy that was put in at the start. Now based on your own criteria, then Stanley Meyer’s water fuel cell is NOT a free energy device either because it requires a fuel (water) that must be replenished (just as Rossi’s requires more Nickel over time) and so based on your own standards set forth, Stanley Meyer’s work
“… has no application here.†(As you put it regarding Rossi’s technology).
Then there are all of the other motors and so forth that require metal or plastic in their construction which needs to be purchased. These are not "FREE" energy devices either because you have to pay money for the device before you can get any energy from them. Also, semiconductors wear out, bearings wear out and other moving parts as well and so although they may be very economical, they produce energy at a cost.
And finally, after having stated all of this, there are other threads, such as “I See an Economic Disaster Coming†that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with over unity whatsoever, however, it is here and it is more popular than most “over unity†threads here including mine. So if that thread is justified, then I think that this thread has just a teeny tiny bit of relevance on an “over unity†forum.
Respectfully,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on December 10, 2011, 08:07:26 PM
...
And finally, after having stated all of this, there are other threads, such as “I See an Economic Disaster Coming†that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with over unity whatsoever, however, it is here and it is more popular than most “over unity†threads here including mine. So if that thread is justified, then I think that this thread has just a teeny tiny bit of relevance on an “over unity†forum.
Respectfully,
Chess
Very well said Chess. ;D
@Loner:
Wow! What a couple of VERY insightful posts (back to back, I might add). Now I see where and why you make the certain distinctions that you make in regards to categorizing different kinds of energy producing devices which I have now adopted as well (because you did such a great job in defining and expanding on your reasons for making such distinctions).
Rossi’s technology is NOT my forte’ as I am actually into (have been for the last 15 plus years) Stanley Meyer’s technology, which to me is simply the voltage disassociation of the water molecule (as it certainly can not be considered merely conventional electrolysis). I am in the middle of my latest build and expect to release a video by February or March of next year of my results.
Now it was NOT really in my best interest financially to start this thread on Rossi and help to promote his technology as I hope to become one of his competitors in the not too distant future. I simply felt compelled to do so in the best interest of humanity as the implications of his work are much needed at this moment in time even at the expense of eclipsing other possible close seconds.
I do believe that there is still plenty of room for competition in the long run as Rossi’s technology will take years if not decades to fully proliferate. I believe his technology to be a great first step in paving the way (as well as educating the masses) for other exotic energy producing technologies that will soon become part of our commercial energy generating landscape.
Now getting to the poll question attached to this thread; I was so blown away by your well worded posts that I have decided to reword the poll’s question to reference “Free Energy†as opposed to over unity as I now agree with you on the two separate distinctions you have made based on your own criteria. I also see the clear difference between Meyer’s work and Rossi’s work as Meyer’s work does not lead to transmutations and Rossi’s does which means that the fuel/catalyst can not be recycled and reused by the device.
Thank you for your participation in this thread as I have learned some new things of great importance to me.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on December 11, 2011, 11:55:54 PM
Now getting to the poll question attached to this thread; I was so blown away by your well worded posts that I have decided to reword the poll’s question to reference “Free Energy†as opposed to over unity as I now agree with you on the two separate distinctions you have made based on your own criteria. I also see the clear difference between Meyer’s work and Rossi’s work as Meyer’s work does not lead to transmutations and Rossi’s does which means that the fuel/catalyst can not be recycled and reused by the device.
Well Chess. I'm afraid I don't get that distinction. And nor can I subscribe to 'free energy' with or without a catalyst. There's no such thing.
But the fact that you're developing something there? Well done. I'm sure, as you say, that there will be many that follow suit. Provided only that it's cheaper and yet as efficient - then I'm sure it'll sell.
Meanwhile I think we should try not to trivialise the issue. The fact is that Rossi has found a way to generate heavy duty wattage at a sustainable cost. Which is EXACTLY what's needed. The more who follow suit - the merrier. I'd be interested to see what comes out in the wash - regarding his 'catalyst'. I suspect it's considerably more mundane than expected.
And my personal concern is that these cells are yet to be replaced by that 'perpetual motion' number that Loner is hooked on. In any event. It's all for the good. In my book we cannot get enough experimental evidence. And the sooner we resolve the physics the better - because that will ensure that the technology can be widely applied.
It's a bright day dawning.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on December 12, 2011, 12:15:30 AM
Well Chess. I'm afraid I don't get that distinction. And nor can I subscribe to 'free energy' with or without a catalyst. There's no such thing.
But the fact that you're developing something there? Well done. I'm sure, as you say, that there will be many that follow suit. Provided only that it's cheaper and yet as efficient - then I'm sure it'll sell.
Meanwhile I think we should try not to trivialise the issue. The fact is that Rossi has found a way to generate heavy duty wattage at a sustainable cost. Which is EXACTLY what's needed. The more who follow suit - the merrier. I'd be interested to see what comes out in the wash - regarding his 'catalyst'. I suspect it's considerably more mundane than expected.
And my personal concern is that these cells are yet to be replaced by that 'perpetual motion' number that Loner is hooked on. In any event. It's all for the good. In my book we cannot get enough experimental evidence. And the sooner we resolve the physics the better - because that will ensure that the technology can be widely applied.
It's a bright day dawning.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
I understand your statement about the existence of "Free Energy" as you could only technically call any and all devices to date "economically feasible" or highly efficient at best. If you removed the cost of the device (construction materials/components) itself (and none of the components were consumed in a chemical reaction, for example), then you could have a "Free Energy" device per say, otherwise the aforementioned strict criteria would mean that a "Free Energy" device could never exist. So your point is valid and well taken.
Now for "over unity" to apply, the device must produce more energy than is introduced at the start while requiring no fuel or catalyst where either transmutation occurs or the fuel can not be recycled and thus can not be reintroduced. I may be misinterpreting Loner here, but I hope that he will correct me if I have in fact done so.
Now as far as my own research is concerned; thanks for the kind words of encouragement. If this latest build of mine is a success, it will be cheaper by far to build and operate than the E-Cat but the results will be the ultimate decider. No matter how the results end up though (successful or not), I will release them in a separate thread to keep this thread on topic which is of course Mr. Rossi and his contribution to our crisis ridden planet.
You have the floor, Rosemary, when it comes to the theory and science behind the E-Cat as my knowledge is very basic in LENR at best.
Warmest regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on December 12, 2011, 02:06:38 AM
@Rosemary:
I understand your statement about the existence of "Free Energy" as you could only technically call any and all devices to date "economically feasible" or highly efficient at best. If you removed the cost of the device (construction materials/components) itself (and none of the components were consumed in a chemical reaction, for example), then you could have a "Free Energy" device per say, otherwise the aforementioned strict criteria would mean that a "Free Energy" device could never exist. So your point is valid and well taken.
Actually I wasn't referring to the cost of production or purchase. I really WAS talking physics - or trying to. My point is this. There's nothing wrong with the standard model. Our own experimental results rely on the fact. Where the standard model errs is in it's assumption that Kirchhoff's rules are the entire measure of what is generated and transferred in an electric circuit. We rather depend on energy being made available from the circuit material itself. In our case we use the inductive and conductive materials to re-generate an electric current from CEMF. Mainstream assumption has been that the amount of energy available from CEMF is constrained to the sum of the amount of energy delivered less the amount of energy dissipated. We propose, and prove, that the amount of energy that is returned to recharge a battery actually is greater than the amount of energy first delivered. That's COP infinity. Which also proves then, that energy must have been 'regenerated' in the material itself. It's possibly not that clear from our paper. But that's the whole point of those tests and the thesis in support of it.
Why I say there's no such thing as free energy is because it's the simple fact. Energy is always some value related to the to the initial transfer. And it's always wholly conserved. The trick is to find a way to regenerate that energy in order to sustain a continuous transfer. I'm not sure how Rossi does it with his cell. But I suspect it's in the initial transfer of heat to the cell itself. That imposes an imbalance in the material structure of the cell. Anyway. I'm speculating. I'll give a link again to the 2nd part of that 2-part paper which points to the thesis. You may like to read it again. But pay attention to the appendix.
Just bear in mind that it is generally accepted that the weak interaction has never been fully defined. Ever. There have been stabs at it. I'll add a link to that as well. It links to my own overly critical analysis of conventional thinking. Chess, there's something that we all need to get our minds around. The simple fact is that no-one has established the actual material property of current flow. Mainstream have made an assumption that the carrier particle for the weak interaction is the electron. It's absolutely not possible. And we've been flailing around in partial theories for far too long. What we're trying to do here is to alert our academics to the possibility that there may be a particle in the magnetic field. Put that in and you can resolve just about every outstanding paradox (a modern euphemism for 'mystery') if one does this. And there's lots of those paradoxes - or paradoxi? lol
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Anyway - here are those links.
This is to the paper. Read the APPENDIX
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/08/140-heres-second-paper.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/08/140-heres-second-paper.html)
This is to that 'over view' of the contradictions in mainstream thinking
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/04/101-repost-of-8-inconvenient-truth.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2011/04/101-repost-of-8-inconvenient-truth.html)
Loner,
I was not intending to be disparaging in referring to you being 'hooked' on perpetual motion. In fact I thought you drew a distinction here.
Quote from: Loner on December 11, 2011, 02:27:28 PM
.....lets use the RV. This motor, if operating the way described, would be an "Overunity" device, as the output power is greater than the input power. The only grey area might be if someone were to prove that parts of the motor were being consumed in a conversion process, but I haven't heard that theory in a long time so I am letting that part slide. Either way, this could NEVER be described as perpetual motion until there were no moving parts. Wear IS a consideration, but not to the overunity part of the equation. (Nit-Picking, I know, but this is important to me. Where in the process the "OU" effect occurs, that is what I am focused on.) The "Fact" of overunity is not in question, as that has been proven. ( I know most here has read the paper on using a voltage field to spin a rotor, with no current required. Might have been super small, and of no practical use, but the effect WAS there.) SO, this is my last point. There IS a major difference between a "Free" energy device, and "Overunity". This is out of my league as, truly, economics comes into play, where cost of construction, distribution, and all the accounting paperwork becomes important. If it takes 100 Years for a proper ROI, then how free was it, really? I've never been good at that part. I can say for sure that most around here would have a better handle on that situation. On that note, Rossi definately falls into that class, as cost of the unit, plus recharging costs, plus maintenance, plus any other fuel costs, etc., should end up being MUCH less than the actual value of the energy produced. Is that a free energy device? IMHO, YES! Is that an "Overunity" device, or is there an overunity process going on in the unit? My current opinion is "no", but I must reserve making a "Final" decision till the science is fully vetted. It's still great work, no matter what.
Here's what you say. 'Either way, this could NEVER be described as perpetual motion until there were no moving parts.' Actually we have no moving parts. Nor do we have perpetual motion. What I thought you were pointing out was that perpetual motion was an impossibility. I simply agreed. Golly. It just shows how one's posts can be misconstrued.
Actually, having said that, I actually think there is a way to generate a perpetual spin. But that still needs to be tested. And I suppose the rule in physics is never to say 'never'.
In any event. It is my opinion that you're entirely wrong in your definitions of over unity. I'm not sure that the weak interaction has been fully defined let alone the strong interaction. But I'm actually not qualified to comment.
Regards,
Rosemary
@Everyone:
A news article from PESN.com is heavily speculating that Rossi's first customer is none other than the U.S. Military. If this is true, then my earlier posted guess that the U.S. Navy is the actual 1st customer is right on target.
I posted some of the key excerpts from the article below:
"As usual, during the next few months politicians will make promises they do not intend to keep, flip flop on policy issues, attack each other, and do whatever it takes to get elected. Meanwhile, the ultra wealthy, elite power barons who control the mainstream media will do their best to blackout certain candidates (like Ron Paul (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Ron_Paul)). At the same time, they will promote other candidates that they know will abide by their wishes, and maintain the status quo -- of big government, constant warfare, fear mongering, and the printing of money from thin air by the Federal Reserve."
"What is going to be so uniquely interesting about this election cycle is that a truly exotic source of clean, cheap, safe, and pollution free energy has been discovered. In fact, this game changing breakthrough is already entering the market place, with the US military being the first customer (http://pesn.com/2011/11/29/9601965_A_Week_of_E-Cat_News_Flurry/#USMilitary). The technology is Andrea Rossi's E-Cat (http://leonardo-ecat.com/) (Energy Catalyzer). Already, almost a year before the first votes are cast, E-Cat modules have been purchased by the US military, and are being further researched and developed. "
"We ought to push for a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to divulge definitively who the US Military customer is [which branch] so that we can escalate the dialogue and pressure on US politicians. If it can be proven that the US Military did indeed purchase 13 E-Cats, that would really put pressure on the politicians and on the media to bring this dialogue to the front."
"During the next several months as the 2012 election cycle meets cold fusion, the public needs to demand that politicians promote the rapid adoption of the technology. I think most politicians will support the technology. In my opinion they will be forced to, because they will not want to look like the candidate who wants to keep the economy in a slump, and keep energy prices high. But there is a possibility some candidates (especially those who like the status quo as it is right now) will announce totally made up "problems" with cold fusion. Any politician who claims there needs to be excessive safety testing, a slow and dragged out implementation, or continued subsidies to oil companies needs to be opposed, and voted out of office. In contrast, those politicians who support the fast implementation of the technology along with a freedom agenda that supports small government should be supported."
"Although there are other important issues that need to be addressed such as cutting spending, ending the FED, ending the drug war, lowering taxes, and restoring the Bill of Rights, supporting a transition from fossil fuels to cold fusion should be at the top of the priority list. There is too much at stake for our civilization to stay dependent on oil any longer."
"In addition to being powerful, the technology is completely safe. It uses no radioactive materials, produces no nuclear waste, emits no radioactivity into the environment, and releases no pollution. Unlike conventional nuclear reactors, E-Cat reactor cores cannot melt down. If the temperature of the core grows too high, the nickel powder melts and all of the reaction sites are destroyed, and the core becomes "dead" until new fuel is added."
SOURCE: http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2011/12/11/9601982_Cold_Fusion_Meets_Election_2012/ (http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2011/12/11/9601982_Cold_Fusion_Meets_Election_2012/)
It has suddenly ocurred to me just how disgusted I am at the Government here in the UK . In these difficult times , money is being wasted on a scale that beggars belief . Right here on my own doorstep , 4 million pounds is being spent on "refurbishing " the market place . Totally unnecessary , it was only done four years ago .And dont even get me started on the cost of the Olympics , or the fighting of unnecessary wars . Compared to that , what is the odd 2 million to buy an E-cat ? The really sick thing , is that we do not have to pay a penny until we have satisfied ourselves that it does what it says on the tin . Britain was once the workshop of the world . What hope for the furure ?
Hello neptune,
Indeed, there is absolutely no reason why this technology of Rossi's is not IMMEDIATELY applied EVERYWHERE. Except that we're up against more than 200 years of history which has 'outlawed' precisely the results that Rossi is getting. And there's no theoretical basis to allow for these results.
It's as contentious as Galileo telling the entire world that they're wrong about the Earth being the pivotal axis of all that matters. It's likely to generate a certain amount of disbelief and it's equally likely to upset everyone who made good money out of that 'belief'. In effect, Rossi is about to wrest the authority of our monopolists away from those monopolists. And they're RICH. They can still throw good money into hampering this development. But. Fortunately. 'Excommunication' is no longer a problem. Thank God for the internet.
There's a new world waiting guys and dolls. We just need to walk through that 'opening door'.
Nice to see you there Neptune. All support much required. This is a vulnerable technology. They last thing it needs is anyone at all diminishing it's value.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on December 15, 2011, 12:36:10 AM
Hello neptune,
Indeed, there is absolutely no reason why this technology of Rossi's is not IMMEDIATELY applied EVERYWHERE. Except that we're up against more than 200 years of history which has 'outlawed' precisely the results that Rossi is getting. And there's no theoretical basis to allow for these results.
It's as contentious as Galileo telling the entire world that they're wrong about the Earth being the pivotal axis of all that matters. It's likely to generate a certain amount of disbelief and it's equally likely to upset everyone who made good money out of that 'belief'. In effect, Rossi is about to wrest the authority of our monopolists away from those monopolists. And they're RICH. They can still throw good money into hampering this development. But. Fortunately. 'Excommunication' is no longer a problem. Thank God for the internet.
There's a new world waiting guys and dolls. We just need to walk through that 'opening door'.
Nice to see you there Neptune. All support much required. This is a vulnerable technology. They last thing it needs is anyone at all diminishing it's value.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Everybody:
I agree with Rosemary and her take on the powers that be concerning ANY technology that threatens the deeply entrenched and powerful energy monopolists.
I watched how the huge oil companies showed the same kind of strategy with the independent oil refineries. They managed to drive them ALL out of business which made their monopolies even stronger while making gasoline even scarcer to drive up the prices (as if they were not high enough before). They now have been turning (reporting) in RECORD profits for last 10 years in a row! Even through this entire recession! They obviously do not want to be replaced and they will not go quietly.
They also have the strongest lobby in congress (just look at John McCain for one easy example) which keeps that door closed as well.
When we landed on the moon, the media was all over the story and it rode the headlines for several months after the fact. This is even bigger than landing on the moon and it still isn't getting even a fraction of the coverage that the space story received.
This is simply a nail we will have to just keep pounding away on until it does become mainstream reality.
Regards,
Chess
Read this to understand what is happening how with wind and solar plants: http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/why-big-energy-wants-kill-lret (http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/why-big-energy-wants-kill-lret) With LENR you get a lower LCOE (Levelized Cost Of Energy) than coal and the ability to deliver base load power 24 / 7. It is ALL about LCOE and nothing else.
Hi everyone,
There is much talk here but very little substance, don’t you think?!
Anyone on the subject (besides a couple of distinguished members who know what they are talking about)? I’m sick and tired of so much philosophical reasoning and associated bs.
So, if someone has a chunk of Ni, I’d be gladly throwing a couple of protons at it . ;)
Seriously, it can hardly be imagined a simpler experiment, so simple that it can almost be done in a garage yet in 30 pages we have zip & nada experiments... Hmmm
Besides experiments, I’d be also interested in discussing the technical part of the dark side of the story. No criticism but just to know where things went wrong. Specifically, let me start with a question about the following document (Piantelli) - “WO 9520816
ENERGY GENERATION AND GENERATOR BY MEANS OF ANHARMONIC STIMULATED FUSIONâ€:
http://www.rexresearch.com/piantelli/piantelli.htm#WO2010058288 (http://www.rexresearch.com/piantelli/piantelli.htm#WO2010058288)
Never heard of it until now (1997-09-30) and to me it sounds almost too good to be true.
Can anyone provide more information? Replication/confirmation/refutation?
It is claimed that examples 1-4 provided an average of 1.29-4.9MJ per day for several days which, although not much, is a respectable 15-56W! (he, he â€" enough to take the prize and money from Harti ;) )
Is the above real?
Then, how did it get largely un-noticed?
Respectfully,
Tinu
Hello Tinu,
Interesting post. I'm sure that you could do some trend setting if you actually started some replication efforts. But what do you throw at this? That 'document' of Piantelli reads like a patent from hell. He's covered all the bases and just about all the effects. If he knows that much why is he not sorting out the production of it like Rossi?
Here's a sample
"In Fig. 4 in the periodic table of the chemical elements the position is indicated of the transition metals that are adapted for the process. They are in detail, Sc, Ti, V, Cr, Mn, Fe, Co, Ni, Zn, Y, Zr, Nb, Pd, Mo, Tc, Ru, Rh, Ag, Cd, Lu, Hf, Ta, W, Re, Os, Ir1 Pt, Au, lanthanoids, actinoids, an alloy of two or more than two of the above listed metals. They belong to one of the four transition metals groups, i.e.: metals that have a partially filled 3d-shell, e.g. Nickel; metals that have a partially filled 4d-shell, e.g. Rhodium; metals that have a partially filled 5d-shell, i.e. the "rare earths" or lanthanoids, e.g. Cerium; metals that have a partially filled 5d-shell, i.e. the actinonoids, e.g.Thorium."
So. The question is this. What material are you going to use? Not only that but Rossi claims to have a catalyst that's responsible for his extraordinary results. And he's not telling. But that's a really interesting document. Most certainly it's worded as a patent. Which also means that any patent that Rossi's applied for may be contested. This definitely has all the hallmarks of a prior art claim. Very intriguing indeed.
The only reason that I'm not inclined to experiment in this is because - in my humble opinion - there's no need. Rossi's selling his units - and therefore, whether or not it's patented - every single aspect of this device technology is likely to be very well known in very short order. Not even that catalyst can be kept secret for long. I think Rossi is simply sorting out the race to production by securing himself a substantial and deserved pole position. The guy's a giant among experimentalists.
But I also know that Hope is trying to get something together. And Chess is keen on putting up his own variant. It would certainly improve this thread. I only 'lurk' here because I'm determined to prevent the kind of catastrophic trollmanship that deflects from a technology. I'm well aware of their efficacy.
So Tinu. I for one would be DELIGHTED to see this thread move to replications. I know that Chess has already suggested it. And I agree with you. We need to get away from all these fatuous pleasantries and get our hands dirty. I won't myself experiment. It's true that I'm not qualified. But I've never actually let that lack hamper any of my presumptions. The point is that my time is heavily constrained. I mention that because Poynty seems to think I have too much of it on my hands.
;D
Very welcome Tinu. Hopefully you and Chess can launch into something here.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
By the by - Tinu,
Regarding the 'dark side' as you put it. I think you've actually hit the nail on the head. If Piantelli actually documented all this - cold fusion - LENR - whatever - then? It also means that one of the reasons that Rossi is NOT publishing - is precisely because this document preceded his own efforts. It's covered ALL bases. Not sure of the implications. But I assume it would mean that his catalyst needs must represent the ENTIRE answer to secure his own better efficiencies. In which case? Surely the trick is to publish everything about this - ASAP. Otherwise he runs the risk of not being able to patent anything at all.
I don't know. Wish I did. Isn't there someone here who knows about the finer points of intellectual property? I can't help wondering why Rossi isn't telling EVERYONE how to do it. He must know that it's going to known - sooner or later. And its benefits - whatever - can NEVER be claimed until it's first been published in a patent. It most certainly IS NOT patented. Nor can I find Rossi's paper on this. Only continual reference to the existence of a paper. It's confusing. He doesn't want to patent because the catalyst will then be widely known? And he doesn't want to publish for the same reasons? Frankly I'm inclined to think he won't publish until he's got the production schedule established. That would make very good sense.
Anyway. Perhaps someone who knows these things could comment. It would be most welcome.
Again, regards,
Rosemary
sorry Guys - I'm on a bit of a roll.
Here's how I see it. I've got a technology that is widely published - which means it's all in the public domain. Therefore it cannot be patented. BUT. Unlike everyone else I can get this to megawatt levels of production and EASILY. Now. The difference between my technology and the sad efforts of everyone else is this. I use a catalyst that is then responsible for the required improvement in performance.
Now. Patent rules are very generous. I can claim the benefits of precisely that catalyst or associated 'types' of materials - so that no-one else can pip me to the use of catalysts. Then. I publish this in a patent. I know for a fact that international patents do not need anything more than publishing. They have no restrictions on 'what may or may not be allowed by our boffins in the academic world. It's now published and the whole world is invited to lodge 'prior art claims'. To the best of my knowledge that's the ONLY thing that restricts the approval of a patent. Because no-one self- evidently has used a catalyst to this 'cold fusion' number - then there can be no prior art claims. Therefore my patent will be granted.
UNLESS - of course - it does NOT require a catalyst. In which case? It means that there is no variation to my technology and everything in the world that has already been published on the subject. Which means that there's ample prior art in the public domain and therefore no patent protection. So then? Do I pretend to the existence of a catalysts in order to keep a head run on the race?
You see this I trust? It means that there can be absolutely NO justifiable reason to NOT disclose the catalyst. And that disclosure should be in patent application lodged in Geneva - post haste. Patents are immediately opened to public inspection in order to let the public contest their own prior art claims. Which means that the catalyst that is used and/or any optional catalyst should be fully disclosed. There is nothing in the public domain about a required catalyst - to the best of my knowledge. Therefore there CANNOT be any prior art claims. It's worrisome. Because all this means that Rossi has NO PROTECTION unless he applies for the patent which is when he also publishes his 'preferred' catalyst. So. Back to the question. Why is he reluctant to apply for a patent?
Kindest as ever,
R
I seriously believe it is something worth looking at...
There have been several claims of this as a working material for power generation I cannot site them all cause my memory unfortunately is not photographic but a more recent one was blacklight power.
In closing some food for thought NiCad batteries are used for energy storage wonder if generation of power uses a similar mixture.
And furthermore if Nickle causes such a reaction what about lithium or other energy storage materials could they have similar reactions. Materials for energy storage may also be good materials of energy generation now this is going out on a limb here having no strong understanding of the principal but just in case it has not been thought of I figured I would share this with people knowledgeable in this field of study.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf
On page 4 we can read:
"It is remarkable that similar results have been obained in the factory of EON
in Bondeno (Ferrara, Italy) in a test performed with ENEL (spa) on June, 25th
2009 and in another sery of tests made in Bedford, New Hampshire (USA) in a
lab of LTI with the assistance of the DOE (November 19 2009) and of the the
DOD (November 20 2009)."
Perhaps if some of you has US citizenship could use Freedom of Information Law to get more information. I would be very interested in this.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf
On page 4 of this document we can read:
"It is remarkable that similar results have been obained in the factory of EON
in Bondeno (Ferrara, Italy) in a test performed with ENEL (spa) on June, 25th
2009 and in another sery of tests made in Bedford, New Hampshire (USA) in a
lab of LTI with the assistance of the DOE (November 19 2009) and of the the
DOD (November 20 2009)."
Perhaps if some of you has US citizenship could use Freedom of Information Law to get more information. I would be very interested in this. Even if this would not be a final evidence that Rossi assertions are true (because LTI is his own firm), we could obtain another piece of puzzle.
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf
On page 4 of this document we can read:
"It is remarkable that similar results have been obained in the factory of EON
in Bondeno (Ferrara, Italy) in a test performed with ENEL (spa) on June, 25th
2009 and in another sery of tests made in Bedford, New Hampshire (USA) in a
lab of LTI with the assistance of the DOE (November 19 2009) and of the the
DOD (November 20 2009)."
Perhaps if some of you has US citizenship could use Freedom of Information Law to get more information. I would be very interested in this. Even if this would not be a final evidence that Rossi assertions are true (because LTI is his own firm), we could obtain another piece of puzzle.
Quote from: jan.kolar on December 16, 2011, 12:35:31 PM
http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/files/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf)
On page 4 we can read:
"It is remarkable that similar results have been obained in the factory of EON
in Bondeno (Ferrara, Italy) in a test performed with ENEL (spa) on June, 25th
2009 and in another sery of tests made in Bedford, New Hampshire (USA) in a
lab of LTI with the assistance of the DOE (November 19 2009) and of the the
DOD (November 20 2009)."
Perhaps if some of you has US citizenship could use Freedom of Information Law to get more information. I would be very interested in this.
HOW DID YOU OPEN THIS? It tells me I've no permission to see this this file? Is there a way of registering to get into this?
R
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf
Quote from: Groundloop on December 16, 2011, 02:51:07 PM
http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf (http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3080659.ece/BINARY/Rossi-Focardi_paper.pdf)
THANK YOU GROUNDLOOP.
R
Ok Guys,
Here's a direct copy from that paper. Could some kind soul please give a link to that patent? Or - if you know this - does that patent publication specify the required catalyst? If the patent is published then it's - presumably - waiting for prior art claims. And if it were registered then - presumably it would have been mentioned.
Also. What date was it published. I'd love to see how that date compares to Piantelli's publication.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
A process (international patent publication N. WO 2009/125444 A1)
capable of producing large amounts of energy by a nuclear fusion process
between nickel and hydrogen, occurring below 1000 K, is described. Ex-
perimental values of the ratios between output and input energies obtained
in a certain number of experiments are reported. The occurrence of the
e§ect is justiÖed on the basis of existing experimental and theoretical re-
sults. Measurements performed during the experiments allow to exclude
neutron and gamma rays emissions.
Ok Guys, Off the cuff - here's my take.
Rossi DOES HAVE A CATALYST. It's mentioned in his paper and, presumably it's mentioned in the patent. That catalyst is simply the required pre heating of the cell to get to an optimised level to initiate the process. Maybe? I see ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION of any pre-heating requirement in Piantelli's paper. I have no idea if Cellani used this. But Cellani never published - to the best of my knowledge. He was working behind closed doors using - as Rossi pointed out to us all - the tax payers money for his research.
If this is indeed covered in Rossi's patent - then he's absolutely SAFE. Provided only that it's ALWAYS required. My take that is that it IS required to ensure the levels of wattage that he manages. So. If this is right - then why is he so reluctant to point this out? Why the secrecy related to his catalyst? I'm reasonably certain that he cannot claim any novelty in his patent simply by using hydrogen and nickel. We all know that Focardi and others were working on precisely this mix - from some years back. And Tumi's link shows us that there were some pretty comprehensive options covered in that document of Piantelli's. Hard to find any element outside the range of options that he included in that list. lol Frankly I think that any attempt at patenting LENR is pretty well prevented from that publication.
All very puzzling. Frankly I think that Rossi would do himself a great favour in letting us all know what that secret is. It's painful going through this guessing game. And what the hell. No-one's likely to be able to patent it outside of Rossi. It's very evident that he found the 'catalyst' first. Perhaps the delays are simply to ensure that we don't start our own 'home grown' versions of this. Maybe - like Tumi suggested - it really is that easy.
So guys. We've got a hotbed of some really good talent here. Let's see if we can do some replications. It will only add to the general knowledge. And who knows? Maybe there are other ways of skinning this 'e-cat'? Always a good thing to have a bit of competition.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Sorry I've been monopolising posts here. I'll lay off after this one.
;D
.
Groundloop - you're an angel. Thank you very, very much. Just think - you'll be able to replace all those wood-burning stoves! You need an E-cat in your basement.
;D
Well guys. Here's the thing. There's a plethora of TRANSMUTED ELEMENTS at the end of that process! None of them apparently in an unstable isotopic form. Lighter elements include but are not limited to COPPER, ZINC, CHLORINE, POTASSIUM, CALCIUM?? And that - MOST CERTAINLY - is COLD FUSION. The ONLY THING that is DIFFERENT that is mentioned in that patent, that I can see - is that the hydrogen is injected under varying pressures 'pulsed' or 'continuous' - presumably, to generate varying levels of reaction - and that the nickel powder is of a specific size and that it also comprises the required unstable 62 isotope. That last bit is the surprise.
All of which means this.
The catalyst is, indeed, the heating of the material in the core
The preferred hydride needs to be in an unstable isotopic form
Not sure how necessary is the use of Nickel-62. He mentions that it's used, simply because it's readily available
The hydrogen requires a pulsed and/or continuous injection
Required shielding is nominal and mostly lead (Not sure of boron? Can anyone advise? Presumably just an efficient shield?)
Emissions - if any - are contained by those materials and containment is required for the efficacy of the process
Points at which this is novel include all of the above - together with the level of efficiency claimed. And that CANNOT BE ARGUED as NO-ONE HAS EVEN GOT CLOSE TO ROSSI'S NUMBERS. Which, in my book, means that that his patent should SURELY be granted?
So. If there are ANY other required catalysts and IF they're not included in this patent - then they're up for grabs. Rossi would know this. Therefore I'll put money on it that there are none. That whole catalyst thing is a red herring. I'm going to try and fish out where it was first mentioned. I can't believe that Rossi would have perpetrated a 'lie'. It's actually ENTIRELY out of character. Unless, of course, he was simply referring to that heat. Which means that he has been telling us about it all along.
All of which means that nickel is likely to be our NEW GOLD. I'd recommend a buy. lol
Please let me know if I've missed anything salient.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
edited the spelling ;D
Quote from: Loner on December 17, 2011, 05:19:32 AM
Might this be important? Direct Quote from the Paper....
Nevertheless we have an experimental evidence of a large energy
that can only arise from nuclear reactions between Nickel and Hydrogen, the
only two elements existing in our apparatus.
If "The only two elements" is a literal fact, I see not what the question is? No Catalyst?
Sorry Rose, I go away now.
Hi Loner..
Why are you apologising? And why are you going away?
Anyway - yes indeed. I agree. The only catalyst is the applied heat to the core to initiate the reaction. If there's anything that he's not mentioned then that will weaken and not strengthen his patent. I would have thought.
What I can't stop thinking about is the number of elements that are transmuted from that reaction. If you think about it - our classical assumptions are that these elements are somehow 'cooked' in exploding stars - super novas. Needs enormous energy. So. I think these results are likely to confront that assumption. It seems that we can transmute elements at very manageable energy levels. My guess is that this is going to explode into a new science. Fag the energy that can be accessed. It's all those elements. Maybe we'll be back to the search for the holy grail - turning mercury - something? into gold? That would be nice.
Take care Loner. Your point is well taken.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Loner on December 17, 2011, 05:19:32 AM
Might this be important? Direct Quote from the Paper....
Nevertheless we have an experimental evidence of a large energy
that can only arise from nuclear reactions between Nickel and Hydrogen, the
only two elements existing in our apparatus.
If "The only two elements" is a literal fact, I see not what the question is? No Catalyst?
Sorry Rose, I go away now.
Yes but could a catalyst not be used in the preparation of the nickel powder before it's insertion into the apparatus? I've always assumed that the nickel powder's physical attributes are key, and why when it overheats, it melts the nickel stopping the reaction.
But I would be the first to admit that this is certainly an uneducated guess.
Edit: Also, clearly the nickel doesn't wear out, nor is all of the nickel spent. It seems to me that whatever physical shape, attribute, or whatever property the nickel has from being prepared, is used up & must be "re-prepared", perhaps by a catalyst.
So where can we get Ni62 10um powder?
Nickle and hydrogen
Nickle metal hydride batteries. These batteries really get hot when charging, or even discharging heavily.
"The active material for the negative electrode in the NiMH battery is actually hydrogen"
So, when charging, is the heat that is created, all wasted energy beyond the amount that the battery holds once fully charged? Or is there some heat for free? ;]
If no freebe, then we are paying probably quite a bit more to fill the batteries due to a lot of heat creation. And the same for output. If the batteries get really hot during use, that heat is not free either. If we add up the losses, we may only be getting in the area of 50 to 70% of what we took from the wall to charge, to the output device. Maybe less considering charger heat and losses.
So, it could be tested, to see if any of the heat in these batteries is free, no?
Just silly mumbling
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on December 17, 2011, 11:39:27 PM
Nickle and hydrogen
Nickle metal hydride batteries. These batteries really get hot when charging, or even discharging heavily.
"The active material for the negative electrode in the NiMH battery is actually hydrogen"
So, when charging, is the heat that is created, all wasted energy beyond the amount that the battery holds once fully charged? Or is there some heat for free? ;]
If no freebe, then we are paying probably quite a bit more to fill the batteries due to a lot of heat creation. And the same for output. If the batteries get really hot during use, that heat is not free either. If we add up the losses, we may only be getting in the area of 50 to 70% of what we took from the wall to charge, to the output device. Maybe less considering charger heat and losses.
So, it could be tested, to see if any of the heat in these batteries is free, no?
Just silly mumbling
Mags
Hi Mags,
So nice to see you there. And I think you're bang on here. I've just been reading up about that NiMH number. The M part of that commonly comprises a wide mix of materials that may also be the source of those trace elements in Rossi's 'mix'. What's needed is to find out where he gets his material. If not now, I suspect that in the past it may have been from the Greek company that are setting up in opposition to Rossi. Can't remember their name and I'm too lazy to look it up. But I think they were originally intended as the material suppliers as they had a handle on the sourcing of the nickel in Greece. I recall that their boast was that Greece was to become the center of all things LENR precisely because of this availability. They've also had a fallout with Rossi which means they may be prepared to 'tell all'. Could be worth looking up.
But frankly I don't think that those trace elements matter. I really do think that you only need that nickle hydride with the application of that electric current to generate heat. I also remember Hope telling us that he spoke to a chemist who seemed to think that the materials were easily accessed. I agree with Mflynn4 that it may need to come in a specific size. 10um? Whatever that is and however one gets it to the required. I'm sure you guys can sort it out. And by the by - Rossi can justify his numbers with Nickel - 62. But I'm not sure that this is the actual source of all that gain. I'd put money on it that there's a strong reaction with just stable Nickel - what is it? 56? Something like that.
Also worrisome is how to get the cell properly enclosed. I personally don't think there are ANY emissions - but that apparatus still needs to be shielded - in the very likely event that I'm absolutely wrong. lol. And then you need a continual supply of water which is not, usually available in most garages. It's going to be an expensive exercise I imagine. And way outside my own competence or budget. But I will MOST CERTAINLY see if I can follow in your footsteps if those steps are clearly shown. I want to learn much, much more about chemistry.
But it's an interesting point that our NiMH batteries may, indeed, be using a similar process when they're over charged. I read up about them in Wiki and over charging is, apparently, a sure fire method of compromising that material.
Anyway. It's all very interesting. I'm looking forward to what the new year will bring us. Hopefully, sooner rather than later, that first buyer will own up and/or there are other buyers who are prepared to acknowledge their use of this technology. That'll be when we'll know more about the whole process. I hope.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Hi , all !
look at this
http://pesn.com/2011/12/17/9601986_Luxury-Sea_Boat_Generates_Electricity_from_Ocean_Water/ (http://pesn.com/2011/12/17/9601986_Luxury-Sea_Boat_Generates_Electricity_from_Ocean_Water/)
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php&ei=h8PsTqy0BJPMtgeA5IDTCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DmCy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php&ei=h8PsTqy0BJPMtgeA5IDTCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DmCy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns)
did you bought one of them ?
Quote from: tagor on December 18, 2011, 01:53:04 AM
Hi , all !
look at this
http://pesn.com/2011/12/17/9601986_Luxury-Sea_Boat_Generates_Electricity_from_Ocean_Water/ (http://pesn.com/2011/12/17/9601986_Luxury-Sea_Boat_Generates_Electricity_from_Ocean_Water/)
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php&ei=h8PsTqy0BJPMtgeA5IDTCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DmCy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php&ei=h8PsTqy0BJPMtgeA5IDTCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.letelegramme.com/local/finistere-sud/quimperle-concarneau/quimperle/luxury-un-bateau-rapide-et-ecolo-construit-a-quimperle-12-03-2011-1233149.php%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DmCy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns)
did you bought one of them ?
WOW. This is wonderful news. Hopefully it's true. Golly. One wonders where all this will stop? Now we just need ANTI GRAVITY and the stars themselves will be within reach. I think it's safe to say that salt water is probably more readily accessible than nickel. ;D
Hope Tinu will forgive all this enthusiasm. But WOW. Again.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Loner on December 18, 2011, 03:06:27 AM
Tagor, that's a wonderful find.
I am curious. Are not all aware that Japan has two vehicles (Cars) on sale to the general public that run on water? I believe there have even been public ads on US TV. They are NOT sold outside of Japan and I wouldn't have a clue as to why. (Well, maybe...)
As to NiMH, anyone think of just inserting the battery into a "High Pressure" container so as to place the "H" at the same pressure as Rossi's? Might that not be possible for a quick test? Just throwing it out there as it's all beyond me.
ok , I read it , months ago on the french site quanthomme
but it is PESN who get my attention on it this morning
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/sensors/PhySen/research.htm (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/sensors/PhySen/research.htm)
"Tests conducted at NASA Glenn Research Center in 1989 and elsewhere consistently show evidence of anomalous heat during gaseous loading and unloading of deuterium into and out of bulk palladium. At one time called “cold fusion,†now called “low-energy nuclear reactions†(LENR), such effects are now published in peer-reviewed journals and are gaining attention and mainstream respectability. The instrumentation expertise of NASA GRC is applied to improve the diagnostics for investigating the anomalous heat in LENR."
New slide show:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/sensors/PhySen/docs/LENR_at_GRC_2011.pdf (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/sensors/PhySen/docs/LENR_at_GRC_2011.pdf)
We've seen those links Ironshell - or similar. But what wasn't apparent is that retrospective and much belated acknowledgement of Fleishman and Pons' work on hard water and deuterium. AND the FACT that NASA themselves had replicated it. Frankly I think it's shameful that they volunteer this information this long after the event. NASA used tax payers money. If they'd made a study of this - then one assumes that they also owe it to the American citizens and, for that matter - the ENTIRE WORLD - to alert us to these benefits. SO. This is just more of that evidence that this knowledge has been UNDULY suppressed.
Guys - I've been in converse with one of our collaborators - who is also really well accredited - but not in electrical engineering. He tells me that cold fusion is in exactly the same 'bracket' as belief in UFO's and such like. And that's very much an ECCENTRIC FRINGE of mainstream science. It's gradually gaining credibility because more and more reputable scientists are giving 'qualified' support to the evidence. But that's on UFO's. Cold fusion is even somewhat LESS respectable - if that's possible - and here's why. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT THE NUMBERS CAN BE JUSTIFIED AS A LOW ENERGY NUCLEAR REACTION. Not apparently, with the best will in the world. The papers that are written on it apparently contradict each other on every significant level - and the explanation for it is wildly improbable - as a result. It seems that Rossi's own publication was done to ensure that the patent is not 'rejected' on the basis of 'no prior publication of the science to justify the experimental evidence'. And his journal is designed to address this lack. Which is why there are so many diverse explanations. The theory is therefore 'up for grabs' and it seems that everyone is making a stab at it. Which is a good thing. But that is very much in the best interests of anyone at all who wants to progress this science. Because REGARDLESS of the explanation - the experimental evidence is IRREFUTABLE.
My own concern related to Rossi's work - is that his numbers, as shown in the patent, require the transmutation of neutrons ONLY. Yet he claims to change nickel-62 to COPPER - in rather large quantities (up to third of the material) and that copper is NOT in an unstable form. Which also means that there has to be a reduction in the proton count and that, apprently, is what's lacking. I think it was Steven E Jones, or JouleSeeker who first pointed this out. And apparently he's right. But. Here's the point. If Rossi states that all is PRECISELY as proposed in his paper - then his entire patent could be negated - unless he somehow acknowledges that the results are NOT contestable - while the explanation MAY be. In which case he could rescue that patent from a possible threat of rejection. Not sure. Anyway, possibly it's not that important. I Just don't know.
I also don't understand why his own paper is NOT freely published in that journal. It seems strangely contradictory - somehow. Unless it's to try and keep the 'full force' of those 'tricks' of production out of the public eye. But in today's world? It's clearly not going to be possible. Not for long. Look how quickly Groundloop found the paper AND the patent. And while Rossi is rushing to production - so are those Greeks. I really need to look up that name again. Then there's more than likely a whole host of others who are taking this seriously - starting with our energy suppliers. Nickel may be plentiful. But according to Piantelli - one just needs to use a metal. For goodness sake. That would also put this technology up for grabs. But here's the real danger to our markets - based as it is on the supply of combustible fuel. As this technology progresses - then there's going to be ever less material required for ever greater efficiencies obtained. Which means that we'll be looking to supply a market that will easily reach saturation. And 'long term' that's not a good thing. Traditionally our entire free market principle pivots on the 'disposable' nature of just about everything. All goods are designed with an in built obsolescence. And nothing fits this bill as COMPLETELY as 'spent fuel' either from our petrol tanks or from our nuclear power stations. There's very little 'spent' in this cold fusion number. And I presume that all can be doctored to replace the required neutrons to re-establish the required isotopes. Which means that there's little long term benefit to our energy suppliers who've waxed fat on all that bottomless need. Which is likely to bring a PROFOUND change to our economic structures.
I do hope so.
Any way. That's my ramble for the day.
Regards,
Rosemary
@ Tagor,
Please start an new thread if you want to discuss new subjects. This doesn't belong in this thread.
Also, please don't post same thing in multiple threads.
Quote from: teslaalset on December 19, 2011, 04:15:39 AM
@ Tagor,
Please start an new thread if you want to discuss new subjects. This doesn't belong in this thread.
Also, please don't post same thing in multiple threads.
sorry but the subject is " FIRST FREE ENERGY DEVICE REACHES MARKET IN OCTOBER -- The Game Changer is Here"
but the first device on the market was utopia and jean marc moreau the inventor !
year 2005
if it is for rossi's device only , you have to change the name of this thread
in anycase I put info in the french forum
http://www.overunity.com/2542/moteur-a-eau/new/#new (http://www.overunity.com/2542/moteur-a-eau/new/#new)
( mais de mon point de vue on est en plein dans le meme sujet )
The Japanese company, Genepax, has closed down.
Quote from: Loner on December 18, 2011, 03:06:27 AM
Tagor, that's a wonderful find.
I am curious. Are not all aware that Japan has two vehicles (Cars) on sale to the general public that run on water? I believe there have even been public ads on US TV. They are NOT sold outside of Japan and I wouldn't have a clue as to why. (Well, maybe...)
As to NiMH, anyone think of just inserting the battery into a "High Pressure" container so as to place the "H" at the same pressure as Rossi's? Might that not be possible for a quick test? Just throwing it out there as it's all beyond me.
Hi all,
Just a very belated merry Christmas. I've been away. Sorry to see this thread has fallen off the front page. I'll get back here tomorrow. Meanwhile, Chess? Where are you? It's been a while since you've posted.
I hope you all had a wonderful Christmas.
Very best for the season and for the new year coming.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Hi Rosemary . Hope you enjoyed Christmass . Surely 2012 will be the year when Rossi will make more information available to the world , and hopefully will have a customer who does not fear publicity .
Click on this link to see a SUPER GOOD news article on the current status of Free Energy:
http://rense.com/general95/worldfre.htm (http://rense.com/general95/worldfre.htm)
.
Many thanks for the good wishes Neptune. And Fatbird. That article link you posted was good. Very heavy.
My concerns about it relate to the following paragraph where the author states that 'free energy' will spark national confrontations. This is not correct. Free energy and national ownership of it are mutually exclusive terms. Contradictory is perhaps a better description. It's actually NOT POSSIBLE. Once free energy is also freely applied - then there is absolutely NOTHING to sustain our national boundaries. THAT'S THE REAL ISSUE. It will dissolve our differences in our new quest for resolution to our many, many economic imbalances. And this is only the first step. Because hot on the heels of this are the intellectual implications of free energy. Theoretically IF free energy is doable - then there are no further restrictions to any of the forces - including time travel - anti gravity devices - and on and on.
There's one big problem though. If the explanation for Rossi's device is hidden behind a welter of confusing scientific explanation - then we, the public - will again be duped into believing in there is a need for the EXPERT before we can apply that knowledge. THAT'S the real danger. We'll be obliged to 'buy into' his technology rather than understand it and build it ourselves. Hopefully that won't happen.
"Free energy technology is a national government's worst nightmare! Openly acknowledged, free energy technology sparks an unlimited arms race by all governments in a final attempt to gain absolute advantage and domination. Think about it. Do you think Japan will not feel intimidated if China gets free energy? Do you think Israel will sit by quietly as Iraq acquires free energy? Do you think India will allow Pakistan to develop free energy? Do you think the USA would not try to stop Osama bin Laden from getting free energy?"
...is all a lot of nonsense.
Nice to see this thread back. WHERE ARE YOU CHESS? Guys. I'm a bit concerned that we're not hearing from him.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Hi Rosemary: RE: Rossi and patents
I can assure you Rossi is not stupid, he has made all the filings necessary to protect his intellectual property.
As far as I can see he is acting like a logical, smart entrepreneur. The powers to be will not issue patents for LENR, “because it is impossibleâ€. Until they wake up there is only one avenue open to him, build and sell e-Cats. He needs money and cannot wait for the bureaucracy to catch up to him. If his company has the only LENR reactor that is producing 1mW of energy and he has built and sold say 100, there is no doubt that he will get his patent or a big part of any compromise between patent holders that is based on LENR. Why should he reveal his “secret†and let a GE out produce him and then with their 1001 lawyers fight him for patent rights because GE engineers added three bolts to a Rossi’s reactor. Be patient Rossi is on the right track.
Quote from: Bernie7 on December 28, 2011, 01:57:31 AM
Hi Rosemary: RE: Rossi and patents
I can assure you Rossi is not stupid, he has made all the filings necessary to protect his intellectual property.
As far as I can see he is acting like a logical, smart entrepreneur. The powers to be will not issue patents for LENR, “because it is impossibleâ€. Until they wake up there is only one avenue open to him, build and sell e-Cats. He needs money and cannot wait for the bureaucracy to catch up to him. If his company has the only LENR reactor that is producing 1mW of energy and he has built and sold say 100, there is no doubt that he will get his patent or a big part of any compromise between patent holders that is based on LENR. Why should he reveal his “secret†and let a GE out produce him and then with their 1001 lawyers fight him for patent rights because GE engineers added three bolts to a Rossi’s reactor. Be patient Rossi is on the right track.
I agree Bernie. Absolutely. Personally I don't think he's hiding anything at all. I've argued that this would jeopardise his patent rights? Not sure if that's right. But either way - INDEED - he deserves everything that he's worked for - and more. He's made all of this technologically feasible which is more than any of us managed. And therein lies our hopes for a solution to all this global mess that we're dealing with.
What I'm pointing to is the need for us all to understand the principles behind the technology. I would be really sorry if our Governments manage to trump up legislation that prevents our own 'hands on' applications - based on any suggestion that the technology is too dangerous. That would be disastrous if we're to research the principles more thoroughly and widely. I suppose what I would really prefer is that we can manage to construct our own 'home grown' versions of the same thing. That is the only way to prevent any monopolistic reach. God forbid that Rossi nominate the manufacturers and that they work with the implicit or explicit co-operation of sundry governmental agencies. Because then we'll be as trapped as we are at present with our utility suppliers. And this can be done - if we don't wrap our minds around the physical principles behind the technology. Right now it's argued as LENR. I'm not qualified to comment. But one of our collaborators who is well qualified - assures me that the explanation in terms of anything at all - is grossly flawed. I've tried to follow the arguments myself. From what I see Rossi is claiming that it's the -62 version that allows for these results. In any event. Whatever the explanation - I'm reasonably certain that other materials can be used as a substitute. And I personally think we need to find alternatives - precisely to ensure that there is a wide scope of options leading to the same result.
But first things first. Let's get those E-cats up and running with buyers who'll also admit ownership. That will be the start. And Rossi deserves everything owing in terms of intellectual property ownership. But I trust there will be NOTHING to prevent a wide number of manufacturers of the E-cat. Or. To put it another way. God forbid that Rossi also garner a monopoly on production. Because then we're screwed.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
Guys, do any of you know how to reach Chess? I've had some considerable email correspondence with him. But not since mid December. And I'm wondering if all is well there.
Can any of you check? Or is there any way of finding out what gives? Please advise. I'm more than a little concerned. And would be glad of advice here. Last I heard was he was going to do his own version of the E-cat. Since then - NOTHING
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
I think this could be clue to Andrea Rossi invention. Successfully proven overunity already a few years ago:
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm)
It all began on the beginning of twentieth century by brilliant scientist Irving Langmuir. He was working in General Electric company in years 1909 - 1927. Trying to improve ordinary light bulb he tested many types of gases in bulb with tungsten filament. He noticed anomalous heat produced in hydrogen atmosphere in temperatures above 2100 K. Excerpt from his original article can be found here:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50210a009 (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50210a009)
Unfortunately only first page of his review is available for free. But his discoveries are summarized in following article of Nicholas Moller, president of non-profit organization GIFNET:
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/article.htm (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/article.htm)
From this article its not obvious that increased amount of heat can be greater than electrical power source (so we are dealing with overunity system). But measurement done by Nicholas Moller & Alexander Frolov (Faraday Lab, Petrohrad, Russia) and additional experiments by Jean Louis Naudin indicate that vacuum tube with hydrogen atmosphere could be overunity system.
@jan Excellent find !!!
So it looks as if Irving Langmuir was the original discoverer of LENR almost 100 years ago!
What I find quite disturbing is that the scientific community has been arguing against the second law of conservation of energy for this long when the evidence was proven way back then??? What kind of drugs are these guys on? Or is it just that the energy cartels are making sure that they control the Science community so that discoveries like these never see the light of day.
Incredible!
Regards,
Paul
To add weight to what I said, I remind that Irving Langmuir was high respected in his time by fellow-scientists. His accomplishments in science were appreciated by Nobel Prize in chemistry in year 1932. His life and work is described in article of Nicholas Moller. Very interesting reading although sometimes too many technical details about technical processes. I find very interesting practical application of his work, namely atomic hydrogen welding. Even when not used today at large-scale its fascinating topic when you realize, that you can heat materials with this method to 4000 K which is more than melting point of tungsten! Classical burning which is oxidative process gives you maximum 3000 K (this is true only if we consider pure oxygen atmosphere!). There are some videos on youtube presenting this technology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ceOL83PM24)
Nicholas Moller was inspired (beside Irving Langmuir) by another man namely William Lyne who wrote a book about application of atomic hydrogen technology:
http://www.amazon.com/Occult-Ether-Physics-Propulsion-Conspiracy/dp/0963746766 (http://www.amazon.com/Occult-Ether-Physics-Propulsion-Conspiracy/dp/0963746766)
William Lyne knew atomic hydrogen welding. From his own experience he come to conclusion that this process may be overunity. His reflections are described in more detail here:
http://www.overunity.com/647/lyne-atomic-hydrogen-furnace/ (http://www.overunity.com/647/lyne-atomic-hydrogen-furnace/)
Here are some pictures from previous UN Secretary General Kofi Annan visit to GIFNET:
http://www.gifnet.org/kofi.htm (http://www.gifnet.org/kofi.htm)
@Goat
There always will be dark forces trying to stop developments but I think that there are many smart men among energy cartels. They could gain money from cold fusion technology just as they are profiting from current technology. But its obvious that cold fusion could weaken their power by promoting decentralizing energy production and distribution. It all depends on quality of particular man, what kind of values are important for him. Secondly many things can be put forward by personal initiatives of ordinary people. Unfortunately current era is not so favourable for revolutional ideas like period 1917 - 1989. Something in collective unconsciousness has changed. Even when previous era brought many suffering and wars, people had more enthusiasm for technical development.
@Jan I hear what you're saying and I agree with you...
Given that Irving Langmuir discovered the process of liberating EXTRA energy out of Hydrogen in his experiments ties in with this thread perfectly as far as a catalyst used to get the process going....But way before Rossi!!!???
William Nyle's experience with using the Atomic Hydrogen Arc Welding and Nicholas Moller's recognition of the current use of an old technology is the reason why Jean-Louis Naudin tried the experiment in the first place, then proved that it was a long time before Rossi found the process to be viable using a different catalyst...Mainly Nickel + ??? ...So what does this say about patent viability if the process has been found to be viable since 1917? With the science community still arguing it can't exist...
Something has to give here wouldn't you agree? Either the science community does some serious investigating and conclude what we have seen here as fact or prove it wrong with hard evidence to refute it as it should have been done almost 100 years ago!
Unreal.
Regards,
Paul
Hi All,
I was just looking through a list of sites before going to bed and this popped up:
LENR / eCat Supplies
http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=95
It just got setup so there is not much, but may open the door to some home experimenting.
This may be of use. If found useful be sure to send some money to the publisher...
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on December 29, 2011, 12:14:45 AM
Guys, do any of you know how to reach Chess? I've had some considerable email correspondence with him. But not since mid December. And I'm wondering if all is well there.
Can any of you check? Or is there any way of finding out what gives? Please advise. I'm more than a little concerned. And would be glad of advice here. Last I heard was he was going to do his own version of the E-cat. Since then - NOTHING
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
I've just returned to the U.S. yesterday evening and I had very little internet access while I was away. I did send you an email but it must have not gotten through.
It's good to see the thread is still alive ;D
Rossi has just made another smart move on his part. He is in negotiations with a store called "Home Depot" (for those of you who live in countries where they do not exist) and he is working out a deal where they would carry his line of home use heating products/systems. The price range would be around $1500 to $2000 if I remember correctly.
This is where his technology will spread like wildfire. Imagine all of the people who do not Google, belong to energy related sites or who only get their information through mainstream sources. Home Depot is an excellent choice as it's about to hit critical mass (or masses...lol).
Best wishes,
Chess
I noticed Sterlinga at PesWiKi is stilling mentioning the e-cat solution as category 'free energy'.
This maybe quite misleading:
- Unit price indeed is estimated to be $1000 - 1500 (apart from installation costs)
- refill, each 6 months, estimated at $100 each.
- Lifetime of an e-cat unit is unknown. Rossi uses stainless steel, meaning that there might be some 'nickel rot' occuring to the housing (nickel from the stainless steel is also consumed in the process).
All very understandable at this stage, but we should put things in perspective.
I hope Defkalion really has something cooking as well.
Competition at this stage will strongly help to keep the marketprice and market introduction under pressure.
One thing I don't understand... if the "refills" are only going to be about $100, and the units $1000 - $1500, why not engineer the unit to hold a 3 or 4 "refills".
One thing that is concerning is if you need a technician to come to your home and install a refill, most of the cost of the "energy" would be in the form of the service charge of the technician.
Incorporate a few refills in the design. The first refill runs out, pull a lever, twist a knob, or whatever and the second refill is engaged, etc. Theoretically the unit could then run for about 2 years without a visit from the technician.
Also for those of you wondering Rossi said the unit will run via a steam driven heat pump to provide heating and cooling (perhaps this was obvious?)
Quote from: teslaalset on January 06, 2012, 06:59:22 AM
I noticed Sterlinga at PesWiKi is stilling mentioning the e-cat solution as category 'free energy'.
This maybe quite misleading:
- Unit price indeed is estimated to be $1000 - 1500 (apart from installation costs)
- refill, each 6 months, estimated at $100 each.
- Lifetime of an e-cat unit is unknown. Rossi uses stainless steel, meaning that there might be some 'nickel rot' occuring to the housing (nickel from the stainless steel is also consumed in the process).
All very understandable at this stage, but we should put things in perspective.
I hope Defkalion really has something cooking as well.
Competition at this stage will strongly help to keep the marketprice and market introduction under pressure.
One thing to keep in mind is that the 'nickel rot' would occur inside the cartridge that would be changed out.
As far as the unit, Rossi is estimating lifetime at 30 years. 10 years would certainly be acceptable at that price range.
@Everyone:
NASA has finally admitted the reality and legitemacy of LENRs. Below is a link to NASA's latest video in which they not only acknowledge LENR but they endorse it. This is a very bold thing for NASA to officially announce and it's in the form of a video no less.
The scientific world is beginning to notice this obvious and new game changing technology as it is for real.
I'm very disappointed with all those who doubted the reality of LENR technology as is self evident by the poll attached to this thread. I suspect many were just imposters trying to peddle their fake O.U. technology here and the E-Cat simply was bad for their scam. Anyway, NASA's announcement is very surprising and exciting indeed.
Regards,
Chess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxeKeuh_2Bw&feature=player_embedded
Is the home unit just for heating and cooling? does anyone have a link to specs of it? cheers
*EDIT* never mind, I found the link... looks great... so, from what i've read, you give this external power (be it, fossil or electrical) for a short period of time until the reaction is stable, then turn off the external power and it runs for a while.
The possibilities are so vast for this... straight off the bat, these are my thoughts.
- Electric car, have a starter battery, steam turbine.
- Have indefinite living arrangement in the most extreme places on earth (north and south pole). Imagine it, you have virtually unlimited power, you can have heat, electricity, hydroponics for food.
- Obviously, power your home
- GOLD GOLD GOLD, it is known that the oceans of the world is full of gold, "he worlds oceans contain nearly 20 million tons of gold" The problem is, it is too "expensive" to extract.... well, not if you have "free energy", The down side to this, is that, once done, gold would be worthless :( lol
@Poit . Gold is already worthless . Apart from its use in a few electrical contacts , it is of no practical use whatever . We just use it by pretending it has value , like savages using pretty shiny pebbles as money .
Chess - WELCOME BACK.
For some reason I didn't get email notification? Not sure why not. But I've seen this FINALLY. Delighted to see that all's well with you Chess. I am very pleased to learn that Rossi's going the route of smaller units. Please give us a link if there is one. And the best yet is NASA's video. That's the PUBLIC DECLARATION. HOW WONDERFUL. And there are no ambiguities in that presentation. It bodes well.
Delighted to see so much under discussion. Had no idea. I'm going to finish up here and then go and pour over all those posts that I've missed.
Kindest and best
Rosemary
Quote from: Poit on January 12, 2012, 09:47:35 PM
Is the home unit just for heating and cooling? does anyone have a link to specs of it? cheers
*EDIT* never mind, I found the link... looks great... so, from what i've read, you give this external power (be it, fossil or electrical) for a short period of time until the reaction is stable, then turn off the external power and it runs for a while.
The possibilities are so vast for this... straight off the bat, these are my thoughts.
- Electric car, have a starter battery, steam turbine.
- Have indefinite living arrangement in the most extreme places on earth (north and south pole). Imagine it, you have virtually unlimited power, you can have heat, electricity, hydroponics for food.
- Obviously, power your home
- GOLD GOLD GOLD, it is known that the oceans of the world is full of gold, "he worlds oceans contain nearly 20 million tons of gold" The problem is, it is too "expensive" to extract.... well, not if you have "free energy", The down side to this, is that, once done, gold would be worthless :( lol
I agree with this. We would not be gridlocked. The only requirement that I can think of is schooling for our children/grandchildren. But I'm sure that this can be graduated to a 'computer class'. The thing that excites me is the thought of desalinating our sea water and 'letting the deserts bloom'. Much needed in the North of Africa. And elsewhere. I also suspect that they'll find that holy grail to the transmutation of elements into gold and goodness knows what else.
Very exciting. And wonderful to share that excitement here. Chess you mentioned something about doing some experiments in the field. Let us know how this goes. It would be a very good thing.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: neptune on January 13, 2012, 11:10:51 AM
@Poit . Gold is already worthless . Apart from its use in a few electrical contacts , it is of no practical use whatever . We just use it by pretending it has value , like savages using pretty shiny pebbles as money .
Golly Neptune.
I'm not sure that I can be indifferent to the value of gold. But I'm sure you're right. I'm just not used to thinking of it as a usable commodity. This technology will definitely impact on its value. Especially as it is now theoretically feasible to transmute elements at energies that do not require super novas.
Take care Neptune. And nice to see you around.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
:D
Quote from: chessnyt on January 12, 2012, 08:00:57 PM
@Everyone:
NASA has finally admitted the reality and legitemacy of LENRs. Below is a link to NASA's latest video in which they not only acknowledge LENR but they endorse it. This is a very bold thing for NASA to officially announce and it's in the form of a video no less.
The scientific world is beginning to notice this obvious and new game changing technology as it is for real.
I'm very disappointed with all those who doubted the reality of LENR technology as is self evident by the poll attached to this thread. I suspect many were just imposters trying to peddle their fake O.U. technology here and the E-Cat simply was bad for their scam. Anyway, NASA's announcement is very surprising and exciting indeed.
Regards,
Chess
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxeKeuh_2Bw&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxeKeuh_2Bw&feature=player_embedded)
Phantastic news thanks Chess! There is an article about this in NyTeknik magazine:
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3384163.ece
with another suprisings.
Rossi stated at the end of December 2011 that he had passed 10,000 pre-orders for a consumer version of his E-cat and that he is now aiming for production of one million units to be sold so cheaply that it will kill all competition â€" 50 USD per kilowatt power, or 500 USD for a 10 kW home unit.
Quote from: neptune on January 13, 2012, 11:10:51 AM
@Poit . Gold is already worthless . Apart from its use in a few electrical contacts , it is of no practical use whatever . We just use it by pretending it has value , like savages using pretty shiny pebbles as money .
something doesn't need to be of "practical use" to be valuable... take art for instance, can it make you a coffee? can it drive you to work? can it allow you to watch your favoirite movies? no, of course no, no practical use what so ever, and yet, some art paintings can be worth 10s if not 100s of millions of dollars....
Gold has ALWAYS retained a good trading value... and I feel with the inception and implementation of virtually limitless power (electrical) will actually devalue gold to the point of it being no more common than copper, probably less in value than copper............ THIS will truly be the first time in human history that gold would be nearly worthless......... but only temporaily... for about 100 years or so, till the oceans have been swept clean of the stuff, then and only then will the value start to rise again (as people hoard it etc)
The basic (and nearly universal) formula to give anything value is rarity........... it really is that simple..... do you think that if Picaso painted billions of paintings, would they be worth much? of course not.
When, and I mean WHEN, a star trek replicator like device is made, it would truly redefine the entire human culture, laws, ethics, morals and everyday life. Everything that HAD value, would no longer have value. If everyone can have everything then nothing can be rare, so nothing can be of value (to the extreme that is, like millions of dollars for a painting, just wouldn't happen, because everyone can have an exact 1 to 1 copy of it so it would be rendered valueless)
Call me crazy, I don't give two hoots......... but it WILL happen, might not happen in our life times, or the next, but assuming humanity doesn't destroy it self or put it self back in the stone ages, it WILL happen.
Poit
1.6 hour Rossi interview: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5cG-36Bag
Ironshell,
Thanks for the link to the interview.
Many things explained and many on going changes.
Production of home water/heater units will be in Florida. Goal to have units cost $500. Target for fall product release.
I am confused about implimentation. Rossi said units would attach to existing home units. I wonder if such modifications would break warranty on exisiting units. No clear implimenation explained for those with electric water heater vs. gas heater. (It may be better to just install a whole new unit with warranty for entire unit.)
Problems still exist for units to produce electricity. Only stable to 120 degrees C.
Hydrogen tanks no longer needed for small home units.
It would be great to have a transcript of the interview.
Bill
Hi Rosemary and all . I got the impression that the Ecat would be installed in parallel with your existing heater . The only reason to do this would be if you had a 10 Kw Ecat , and it would not quite manage to heat your home in the coldest weather . If we used the Ecat to boil seawater to remove the salt and recover gold and other substances , the most valuable product could well turn out to be the resultant fresh water .
I saw an old film once , where two guys robbed a bank . They stole about 20 ingots of gold . They then set off across the desert to escape . Their car broke down , and they decided to continue on foot . Each guy was carrying a back pack containing 10 gold bars , and two bottles of water . By day two , one of the guys ran out of water . The other guy sold him a bottle for five gold bars , which of course he had to then carry . I can not remember how it went after that , but in the final scene we see two skeletons glinting in the setting desert sun ... Gold only has value whilst we have civilisation , and that is not guaranteed .
"Oz skeptic offers prize if Rossi’s E-cat works"
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/12/smith_offers_ecat_prize/
I wont say I am convinced that Rossi is not a scammer. But I am 90% there.
In fact I would have placed money on him being a scammer until I read and watched the videos at the following link. Please continue reading and return to the link to make your own mind up.
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Failure-of-Rossis-Energy-Catalyzer-Caught-on-Video.shtml
I came away from it thinking his calculations were wrong, something didn't add up. After meticulously checking his figures, I am happy to report in my opinion the figures are correct. I got slightly different figures but only slightly because I used a different heat of vaporisation (sourced from wikipedia).
After watching the video's twice AND doing the calculations twice using two different methods I came away thinking the following...
A/ The article is unfair, Rossi repeatedly stated most of the steam was too hot to be visible (unlike that rising from a kettle and condensing in the cool air around it) He also stated it was quite warm in the room, >30 degrees c (86f).
B/ his figures add up and unless he is deliberately scamming as I don't believe he is unwittingly making a mistake, then he has successfully solved LENR (Incredible :D)
Now his business practices may be odd but this Doubting Thomas is changing his spots.
I wish Dick Smith the best of luck. As an Australian who is very familiar with Dick Smith I can assure you he will HAPPILY write the cheque. He is probably Australia's most well known philanthropist and to prove a viable low cost alternative energy source would give him immense pleasure.
CC
P.S. Of course if Rossi is proven correct and all energy woes are solved for the next century at least the search for OU will continue. but I must say I for one will consider it a luxury rather than an imperative :)
Quote from: CuriousChris on January 16, 2012, 07:20:32 AM
I wont say I am convinced that Rossi is not a scammer. But I am 90% there.
...
After watching the video's twice AND doing the calculations twice using two different methods I came away thinking the following...
A/ The article is unfair, Rossi repeatedly stated most of the steam was too hot to be visible (unlike that rising from a kettle and condensing in the cool air around it) He also stated it was quite warm in the room, >30 degrees c (86f).
B/ his figures add up and unless he is deliberately scamming as I don't believe he is unwittingly making a mistake, then he has successfully solved LENR (Incredible :D )
...
Now that’s disturbing indeed!!!
I could not see a clear measurement of 7kg/h for the water but that’s something I can live with. If Rossi said that, so be it. However, that amount of water turned into dry steam would be over 3 liters per second and that’s a lot! Follow the calculation of steam speed for the following cases:
Hose (internal diameter) Area (square cm) Volume Steam speed
1 inch (2.54cm) 5.1cm2 3000cm3/s 588cm/s =
21km/h 3/4 inch (1.91cm) 2.9cm2 3000cm3/s 1034cm/s=
37km/h 1/2 inch (1.27cm) 1.3cm2 3000cm3/s 2307cm/s=
83km/h To me, that hose looks like a 1/2 inch one but even 21km/h (1 inch hose) is a respectable speed that should be felt/heard etc . I may be wrong and maybe I’ve made some mistakes in the above calculations.
Any thoughts?
Best regards,
Tinu
Quote from: tinu on January 16, 2012, 09:26:38 AM
Now that’s disturbing indeed!!!
I could not see a clear measurement of 7kg/h for the water but that’s something I can live with. If Rossi said that, so be it. However, that amount of water turned into dry steam would be over 3 liters per second and that’s a lot! Follow the calculation of steam speed for the following cases:
Hose (internal diameter) Area (square cm) Volume Steam speed
1 inch (2.54cm) 5.1cm2 3000cm3/s 588cm/s = 21km/h
3/4 inch (1.91cm) 2.9cm2 3000cm3/s 1034cm/s= 37km/h
1/2 inch (1.27cm) 1.3cm2 3000cm3/s 2307cm/s= 83km/h
To me, that hose looks like a 1/2 inch one but even 21km/h (1 inch hose) is a respectable speed that should be felt/heard etc . I may be wrong and maybe I’ve made some mistakes in the above calculations.
Any thoughts?
Best regards,
Tinu
Tinu,
7kg/hr is 7 liters water per hour. Steam would depend on pressure. Not sure if you can measure steam in liters per second like you did. However, the pressure did look rather low coming from the hose in the video.
I am not sure I could boil away 7 liters of water in one hour on my stove.
Bill
Quote from: maw2432 on January 16, 2012, 11:09:48 AM
Tinu,
I think you made a mistake. 7kg/hr is 7 liters per hour not 3 liters per second. One Kg water = 1 liter.
Bill
Thanks Bill. I make many mistakes but usually they are not that straightforward ;)
7 l/h of water expands, when boiling, into 7 x 1600 = 11200 l/h of steam (gas) at atmospheric pressure
11200 liters of steam divided by 3600 seconds = 3.1 liters of steam per second
By some, the expansion factor is not 1600 but 1700! In any case, my figures are down-rounded.
Best regards,
Tinu
Edit after your edit: That's exactly the point: there is not enough steam coming out from Rossi's device, for a heater presumed to have 5kW thermal power. It seems much more close to a 500-1kW boiler. If you have a gas stove, you shall be able to boil that 7l/h. If your stove is electric, it's even better; although it may not have 5kW it might be relevant to check the large amount of steam at its rated power and to compare with amount seen in the movie.
Quote from: tinu on January 16, 2012, 11:20:24 AM
Thanks Bill. I make many mistakes but usually they are not that straightforward ;)
7 l/h of water expands, when boiling, into 7 x 1600 = 11200 l/h of steam (gas)
11200 liters of steam divided by 3600 seconds = 3.1 liters of steam per second
By some, the expansion factor is not 1600 but 1700! In any case, my figures are down-rounded.
Best regards,
Tinu
Tinu,
You caught my post before I completed my edit. I realized after I hit the key you were talking about the amount of steam in liters. In any case, you have a valid point. That is a lot of steam and I agree you should hear some of the pressure sound.
It looks to me there is not much surface area in the e-cat. To heat that much water to steam in one hour would require a huge amount of heat made from the e-cat. I can not boil away 7 liters of water on my stove in a large kettle with large surface area of heat on high in that amount of time. But that may not be a fair comparison.
Bill
Quote from: tinu on January 16, 2012, 11:20:24 AM
Thanks Bill. I make many mistakes but usually they are not that straightforward ;)
7 l/h of water expands, when boiling, into 7 x 1600 = 11200 l/h of steam (gas) at atmospheric pressure
11200 liters of steam divided by 3600 seconds = 3.1 liters of steam per second
By some, the expansion factor is not 1600 but 1700! In any case, my figures are down-rounded.
Best regards,
Tinu
Edit after your edit: That's exactly the point: there is not enough steam coming out from Rossi's device, for a heater presumed to have 5kW thermal power. It seems much more close to a 500-1kW boiler. If you have a gas stove, you shall be able to boil that 7l/h. If your stove is electric, it's even better; although it may not have 5kW it might be relevant to check the large amount of steam at its rated power and to compare with amount seen in the movie.
Tinu,
I just did a test on my electric stove. Used large kettle on 8 inch dia. heating eliment. Measured 1 liter water. Brought water to full boil high heat and turned on timer for 10 minutes. Took kettle off the stove after 10 minutes and measured 620 ml of water left. Boiled away 380 ml water times 6 for 60 minutes is about 2.28 liters per hour. Not sure if this means anything or not. Larger surface area for the heat than e-cat. Also I noticed with kettle spout open not as much steam pressure as I expected.
Bill
Hi Bill,
If your stove boils 2.28 l/h, it should have around 1500W:
Heat of vaporization for water is (according to Wikipedia) 2.27MJ/kg
2.27 MJ/kg * 2.28kg = 5.18 MJ = 5180kJ of energy
5180 kJ / 3600s = 1.439kW
Large surface area does not matter much. It helps a bit because it avoids condensation falling back into the kettle. But condensation only takes place as long as the walls are bellow 100 Celsius (at atmospheric pressure). If you put enough heat in the water, the kettle will quickly become hot (will reach 100 Celsius so from that point forward there will be no condensation or very little condensation) and the steam will get out anyway (or the vessel will explode, if sealed).
Anyone who has a pressure cooker or a whistle tea maker can easily check the large volume of steam generated from relatively low power. My better half usually sets the gas stove at minimum when using the pressure cooker (I estimate the power at less than 500W â€" it can be easily measured though but I didn’t bothered) but the whistle sound is quite powerful and the steam flow is also very visible, I’d say quite comparable with that seen in the above-mentioned movie.
I apologize for my divagation about steam…
Best regards,
Tinu
1. Zawodny has explained that he didn't mean what is being claimed he meant in his video. Why hasn't anyone quoted or linked to his explanation?
2. The steam shown to rise from Rossi's ecats has been shown to be ...er... inadequate to his claims, several times, for several videos. The Krivit video is only the most damning because it's had the most analysis. I even addressed the issue in a couple of light-hearted but serious videos, SIX months ago. Just put "ekitty tinselkoala" into the YT search window.
3. Anyone seeking to calculate needs to understand the characteristics of the water pump Rossi uses. The manual for this line of pumps is available on-line. It's being called a peristaltic pump but it isn't really. It may produce different flow rates with and without backpressure, regardless of its dial setting, but its maximum flow rate is determined by two settings: stroke volume and stroke frequency. You can hear the stroke frequency in the video and you can get the range of stroke volume from the pump specs. Rossi's pump is NOT pumping 7 liters per hour in the demos, regardless of what it may have pumped before into a bucket.
4. Is it October yet? No free energy device is on any market that I can find. If anyone can confirm that Rossi has actually completed a sale to a customer, please post your confirming information here.
Now... carry on.
Transcription of Rossi's interview on January 14th:
http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/transcription.htm (http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/transcription.htm)
@Tinselkoala: good to see some good old fashioned criticism.
Maybe the positive news was becoming too dominant.
B.t.w Rossi makes good progress with his EU Patent Application EP2259998, while Piantelli has paid for renewal of his patent (EP2368252) on Nov 23rd 2011.
(source: European Patent Register)
I wonder why....(not:)
@Tinu
Wow man how to bring someone down. I should have noted the big problem was not the visibility of the steam but the quantity.
The flow rate seems far far too low.
In which case it appears. that I jumped the gun giving support. In my opinion you do not 'fake it' Not even once. it brings everything you do into doubt. he should have stopped the interview at that time and said something is wrong. rectified the issue and then pressed on with the interview.
Thanks Tinu for pointing out the now obvious blunder I made and better than that being able to show the expected flow rates.
An excerpt of Zawodny's explanation for the NASA video which has been widely misrepresented as support of the ecat and LENR in general
http://ecatnews.com/?p=1868 (http://ecatnews.com/?p=1868)
CC
Don't even get on this issue of steam. I was boiling sweet corn in the Turkey cooker this summer as I usually do, but this time it was right after I read about the Rossi steam issue. So I can tell you that inside the kettle the water was rapidly boiling and the propane burner sounded like a rocket engine possibly 30-40 times more gas than a stove, and with the cover sitting on top, you could barely see any steam. Sometimes none at all and sometimes small puffs, but removing the lid, you would almost burn your arm and the steam was gushing out.
You cannot evaluate anything from looking at the steam!
@Everyone:
I will be posting highlights from Andrea Ross's most recent interview on 1-15-2012. The following is Rossi's basic overview of the operation of his smaller home units in operation:
"In any case, the kind of module of an E-Cat is made by a small emp... a small box as big as a box of cigarettes to give an idea. Inside which there is a powder of nickel, and is compressed hydrogen. Inside this.. and there are also the catalyzers from which the name E-Cat, which is a shortcut for Energy Catalyzer, the differentials of pressure and temperature properly handled produce an effect that emits a low energy gamma rays. The gamma rays then hit the wall of lead, and the lead turns the gamma rays, the low energy gamma rays, into heat. The heat then heats the water that flows outside the reactor, and this is why heating is produced."
Rossi commenting on the theory behind the E-Cat:
"To produce a megawatt power of energy, we employ a very, very very tiny amount of hydrogen and nickel. And this effect has now been understood very well. And the theory will be presented soon. And this way, we can produce energy without emission of any kind of gas, without as you correctly said production of any kind of waste, without of course using radioactive materials, without leaving radioactive materials. Without emission of CO2, or noise, or anything else. So it is environmentally friendly."
Rossi explains what happens in the case of a meltdown in the reactor:
"Since the materials that we use are nickel and hydrogen, should the temperature go too high, at that point the nickel which is just nickel, like the nickel of the five cent, five cents of dollar, that is a nickel too. And the nickel when it melts is no more powder. Then the E-Cat cannot work if the nickel is not powder. So automatically intrinsically we say, if the temperature goes too high, the E-Cat turns out. It is switched off, because has no more proper nickel in powder form to operate."
There's much more to come and I will be posting this information in bite size segments as to not overwhelm the readers.
There's a lot of crow for the naysayers to eat and I fully intend to bring this into their threads when the time is right. It just wouldn't be fair to let them get away with carelessly trashing Rossi (and his reputation) just because they have nothing to offer.
It's a great day dawning! Any more naysayers to add to the list? Bring it babies!!! I'll be happy to add you to the list ;D
Chess
The poll is incomplete in choices. This is not a free process, but yes the process works. To generate power for the world would be something like 6.1metric tons of the 143,000 metrics tons of nickel produced a year; and a likewise similar amount of hydrogen consumed.
I'm really glad that Rossi has gotten all this wonderful press, but there are others (blacklight power) who have been working in this area who have a very similar process, but instead have found that there are 137 (173?) fractional levels below the standard n=1 orbit of hydrogen, and just before the hydrogen proton/electron become close enough to look like a neutron and are able to interact with the core of the nickel thereby allowing an extra proton to be inserted and upgrade it to copper (kicking out the extra electron), you can just extract the partial energy and get left with a 'hydrino' which has chemical properties all its own. This process doesn't consume the nickel, and the hydrogen is able to be returned to a natrual state by applying heat. A method of direct electric generation is also available.
A short history, when Intel Atom came out a few years ago, I was searching for atom information, and it turned up at that time that there was this blacklight power company that kept coming up. They also have university third party verification of their process. And while it's not 100% the same, when you look at what they are using (nickel, hydrogen, and in blacklight's case a named catalyst potassium, in rossi's an unnamed catalyst). Now also rossi claims that it is the lead absorbing the gamma radiation from the exothermic process of adding a proton to nickel to produce copper, rather than just that it'd be an exothermic process to fuse nickel with a proton to make copper. Where as Dr Randell Mills has software to model these fractional behaviors and has a long depth of scientific investiation as opposed to a backyard inventor philosophy.
Unfortunatly, every few months as more Rossi News comes out, I make sure that i forward such information to blacklight but I hvae no received even 'thanx for the info' nor any indication that it was even received. But I'll still put out the info for others to see... and if NASA really thinks that Rossi's works, they should start looking at the 'hometown players' also.
Edit: I might also add it seems to be potassium that's required to make crystal batteries work; if you have epson salts, you can use alum(which has amongst its many incrediants potassium, err no maybe that's wrong, maybe alum is used instead of magnesium sulfate if you're using aluminum instead of magnesium [an/cath]ode), or potassium cloride(salt substittue) or rochelle (potassium sodium tartate)
Quote from: d3x0r on January 21, 2012, 06:21:59 PM
The poll is incomplete in choices. This is not a free process, but yes the process works. To generate power for the world would be something like 6.1metric tons of the 143,000 metrics tons of nickel produced a year; and a likewise similar amount of hydrogen consumed.
@d3x0r:
This was discussed earlier in this thread and while it is true that in the context of "totally free" that there will never be an energy source that is truly free (as even solar panels cost money, as do windmills, etc.). The context of "free" in the title of this thread is simply the gain of extra energy (more than was introduced at the start) that you don't have to pay for.
Sure you are billed for the energy used to start the reaction, but not for subsequent energy produced long after (6 months worth) the input power source is removed. So then, if you take the total energy produced and subtract the total amount of energy you payed for that was used to get the process going, you are left with nearly 6 months of energy (energy that the utility companies didn't bill you for) off the meter.
Now you have to determine the exact amount of this excess energy (e.g. kilowatt hours) and find the cost that your utility company would have charged you for this amount of energy (not "free" yet). Now take this dollar amount and subtract the cost of maintenance (the 10$ refill cartridge of Ni powder) and you are left with your actual "free" energy afterwards (energy that is worth some clear amount that you didn't actually get billed for).
I am going to change the poll soon but for different reasons. The poll is simply going to ask whether or not you believe Andrea Rossi is:
a. A scam artist selling a bogus product that does not produce excess energy.
b. An honest inventor selling a revolutionary technology that produces excess energy.
Regards,
Chess
(highlights from Andrea Rossi's most recent interview on 1-15-2012 continued)
Rossi uses his own system in his current home:
"The facility that used the very first generation of E-Cat for a couple of years to heat, the room etc, is the facility that I sold to finance this production. And that particular facility has been closed, but E-Cats are right now working in rooms and houses of ours. Just to test them in continuous. So we have E-Cats that are working in continuous right now, just to test them."
When asked about the possibility of nickel shortages:
"Absolutely not. The amount of nickel that we consume is very, very tiny respect to the amount of nickel that is produced. To understand well this I can use numbers. You must consider that one gram of matter of mass of matter, of nickel or anything in this world is equal... can produce if turned into heat, can produce twenty three thousand megawatt hours of energy. Again, one gram of mass, of nickel, can produce twenty three thousand megawatts of energy. If you think this, you can imagine that even if this kind of technology will be well used in our planet, the amount of nickel consumed in one year will be less than 1% of the nickel that today is produced in the world. And so the answer to your question, is that no. It is impossible that there can be shortages of nickel because it is absolutely. It is irrelevant the amount that is consumed. That's it."
Rossi addresses the possibility of selling units that produce electricity:
"It will take between one and two years to be able to make E-Cats that make also electricity, besides heat. For now we are just heating with our E-Cats."
The locale of his mass production factories are addressed:
"Well, we have made, yes, many public tests. But you must consider that we make tests everyday in our laboratory with our consultants, with our apparatus. Now the technology is very solid, the E-Cats now are very stable. We have manufacturing right now, one megawatt plants why for the domestic small E-Cats, we, first of all, we have started the certification process with underwriter laboratories, which will be necessary to sell the E-Cats. And at the same time, we are engineering, right now, we are preparing a totally robotized manufacturing factory, which will be able to produce one million pieces per year. This will be in the United States. And I am honored to say this, because I reside in the USA. I love the United States, and I wanted for many reasons that now I cannot explain, to develop in the United States this technology. And I want that this technology is American."
Regards,
Chess
P.S. I have started a new poll attached to this thread (it's the third or fourth time) today to avoid the play/debate on semantics.
In his last interview Rossi mentioned issue of stability. Specifically he said that device is absolutely stable up to temperatures around 120 celsius degress. I speculate what would happen if some electric grid was turned off by blackout. There would be no energy to drive circulation pump to sufficiently cool the device. He only mentioned that there is no way to explode like atomic bomb because liquid nicked would stop the whole reaction.
Quote from: CuriousChris on January 17, 2012, 05:42:00 AM
An excerpt of Zawodny's explanation for the NASA video which has been widely misrepresented as support of the ecat and LENR in general
http://ecatnews.com/?p=1868 (http://ecatnews.com/?p=1868)
Well, when reading the article "Zawodny Clarifies NASA Video" published January 16, 2012, one starts to wonder who suddenly made him
change his basic attitude towards LENR, especially when he himself have filed a LENR patent.
The response to the article by "Jack" January 17 nails it down:
Quote:
If extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, then how the hell could Joe Zawodny try to get a patent on such a claim,
as it would be a contradiction of this philosophy. One can only draw two conclusions.
(a) He has got extraordinary evidence to support his patent, or
(b) he does not believe in the philosophy of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I think they took out generalized patent on LENR so as to lay claim on any future discoveries in this field.
The contradiction here is if NASA say there is little evidence supporting LENR which is an extraordinary claim
and lacks extraordinary evidence then why would they be filing for patents in this area.
/end of quote
Gwandau
Quote from: jan.kolar on January 22, 2012, 02:29:49 PM
In his last interview Rossi mentioned issue of stability. Specifically he said that device is absolutely stable up to temperatures around 120 celsius degress. I speculate what would happen if some electric grid was turned off by blackout. There would be no energy to drive circulation pump to sufficiently cool the device. He only mentioned that there is no way to explode like atomic bomb because liquid nicked would stop the whole reaction.
@jan.kolar:
There have been steam driven devices and systems long before the arrival of the grid. There are safety relief valves (even your water heater in your home has to have one) which open up automatically when a safe pressure has been exceeded. They do NOT require any electricity to function as they are mechanical devices activated by pressure alone (overpressure) so a blackout would have no affect at all on their safe operation.
I do not know for sure if the E-Cat is equipped with these overpressure valves or one of many other types of devices used in steam systems (like rupture discs) but they would have to have one of these aforementioned devices or they would not be granted a U.L. certification that they have already applied for.
Chess
@Everyone:
In this huge excerpt, Rossi gives the state in the U.S. where his production plants are going to operate in and his reasoning for keeping the price as low as possible:
"In Florida. And at this point, the very important issue now for many reasons is to push the price of an E-Cat very, very down. Because this technology must be for all. And I want that a ten kilowatt E-Cat costs around $500 dollars. To make this we must absolutely robotize and engineer very well the manufacturing lines, because you know, to compete... because once we will have defused our devices, our E-Cats, in the market, we will be subject to copies, intentional copies and competition. And to compete against, also because yes, we have patents pending, but to be sure that the reverse engineering will not put in jeopardy our production, we had to make it the best way to fight against the competition is to have a very low price. This is the effort that now we are making, because I foresee that we will have to compete against production made in China, and we have China or other countries where, of course the work... We cannot compete against that kind of system, social system that makes the work have costs that are unsustainable for us. So we have to fight against them with best, better engineering in the production lines. Now our efforts are passed from the technology of the E-Cat which is mature and stable right now, to the engineering system. Because if not, we have won the battle of the technology, we risk to go to lose the war of the competition. Which is why now we have to work very hard on the engineering. And we are doing it. There is so we will be able to put in the market in a very cheap way, and you will be surprised from the very high level of easiness of use of the E-Cat. We are making it a very.. a very good... engineering. Sorry, maybe I have been too long, but you know, I got, I have, been got from, the floor of what we are doing."
Here Rossi goes into additional detail on his plans to deal with reverse engineering (cheap clones/copies):
"We must foresee reverse engineer and to put knock out the reverse engineering that will come from, from countries that do not respect the standards of welfare of workers that we respect in the USA. We have to be prepared so that it will be impossible to beat us under the economic point of view. If not, we will make the end of the companies like Solyndra or the other one, that you know started making solar panels, but then arrived the Chinese and they have been put out of business. And you know, we have to study very well those cases in history, because we must foresee what they will do. And we must anticipate this war, because this is a war, and we want to win it."
Rossi addresses a question about the mysterious catalyst:
"The importance is substantial because without them the E-Cat does not work. You know, many other technologies based on nickel and hydrogen tried to work, but they did not work. And this is why we have to cover them. Of course once we will have millions of pieces in the market it will not be very very difficult for a laboratory to understand which are these catalysts, but at that point, as I said before, we will be so well engineered with a production system that the reverse engineering will not be enough to compete with us. Because after that there will be the necessity to compete with us. And so, I hope we will take an advantage."
Rossi fields a question asked about the electrical input:
"I am very sorry. I am very sorry, but this is a confidential issue. Yes, we use... I can say you this... That we use a system that is similar to what happens in the martial arts, oriental martial arts. Sorry, my pronunciation is a bit shaky. The effect is based on the fact the forces that theoretically should fight against us, and I mean the Coulomb forces, are used to help us. This is the principle. And this is the issue. This effect is an effect where we have turned to our advantage what theoretically has to be to our disadvantage. That is all I can tell you my friend." -- Andrea Rossi
Chess
Chess, if Rossi has all these ECats running in his rooms, or wherever, why is he always WEARING A HEAVY COAT when he's showing his lab and his ECats?
In every source EXCEPT "Rossi says", all the output from his ECats is dumped down the drain. Nothing is ever done with the heat generated, not even running it through a simple steam radiator to heat up the room so that the journalists and scientists can take off their HEAVY COATS.
And please... get your calculator and tell me, using Rossi's numbers, how much 1 MW worth of domestic 10 kW ECats will cost me. Then tell me why anyone would buy a single 1MW unit at its reported price.
Next... tell me why he's not getting instantly rich on the isotope enrichment process he claims to have.
Then.... a bit more complicated.... figure out how he can sell a replacement cartridge with enriched nickel isotopes in it for ten dollars. You can't even buy a bag of dog food for that... and a dogfood bag doesn't have to contain hydrogen or toxic nano-nickel powder in a non-reverse-engineerable form.
I'll be checking here periodically... in the FIRST FREE ENERGY DEVICE REACHES MARKET IN OCTOBER thread.... even though it's way past October and nothing has reached any market yet. The only unit Rossi even CLAIMS to have sold is sitting in his... COLD... laboratory, as can be seen in the latest video.
Quote from: TinselKoala on January 22, 2012, 07:51:58 PM
Chess, if Rossi has all these ECats running in his rooms, or wherever, why is he always WEARING A HEAVY COAT when he's showing his lab and his ECats?
In every source EXCEPT "Rossi says", all the output from his ECats is dumped down the drain. Nothing is ever done with the heat generated, not even running it through a simple steam radiator to heat up the room so that the journalists and scientists can take off their HEAVY COATS.
@TinselKoala:
Here's one of the quotes from Rossi concerning continuous testing of the E-Cat to heat rooms:
"The facility that used the very first generation of E-Cat for a couple of years to heat, the room etc, is the facility that I sold to finance this production. And that particular facility has been closed, but E-Cats are right now working in rooms and houses of ours. Just to test them in continuous. So we have E-Cats that are working in continuous right now, just to test them." -- Andrea Rossi
As far as his facilities are concerned; he could have been using the devices to heat the private offices for all anyone knows.
I must have missed the videos made inside Rossi's private residence. Could you send me a copy of this video or post a link to it here? I personally have never been inside any of Rossi's homes or seen a video from inside them either. Since you are sure he is lying about using his own product inside his own home, then I'm sure you must have been inside to gather your conclusive evidence. I did not know this before your last posting. Sorry.
I will be checking back to settle every question put forth after you have had a chance to respond to my replies one at a time.
Regards,
Chess
John Michell has written a book on the e-cat. I know him personally. If he says it works - it works.
@Chessynt. Thanks for the trouble you have gone to in order to give us this information .In the end we will all have to wait and see what happens . Personally , I believe Rossi is on the level . I am not a young man , but hope to live long enough to enjoy the low cost heat from an E-cat .
Quote from: jan.kolar on January 22, 2012, 02:29:49 PM
In his last interview Rossi mentioned issue of stability. Specifically he said that device is absolutely stable up to temperatures around 120 celsius degress. I speculate what would happen if some electric grid was turned off by blackout. There would be no energy to drive circulation pump to sufficiently cool the device. He only mentioned that there is no way to explode like atomic bomb because liquid nicked would stop the whole reaction.
Jan, I tend to disagree with you.
If Rossi's technology is real, this will just be the beginning of a new era.
Once LENR is understood, starting the heat production will be done much more efficient.
A small backup battery could in that case be sufficient.
B.t.w. my central gas heater is controlled by microcontrollers etc.
That unit is also powered by the grid.
No power from the grid, no heat by gas.
Quote from: a.king21 on January 23, 2012, 08:00:03 AM
John Michell has written a book on the e-cat. I know him personally. If he says it works - it works.
Just by writing down it works doesn't prove it.
The guy is just trying to already profit from the hype.
This is not a religion.
Quote from: teslaalset on January 23, 2012, 01:17:06 PM
Jan, I tend to disagree with you.
If Rossi's technology is real, this will just be the beginning of a new era.
Once LENR is understood, starting the heat production will be done much more efficient.
A small backup battery could in that case be sufficient.
B.t.w. my central gas heater is controlled by microcontrollers etc.
That unit is also powered by the grid.
No power from the grid, no heat by gas.
I disagree with you. Its not the same situation as with gas heater, at least at contemporary level of knowledge. You are mixing to things that should be hold apart. Burning of gas is chemical reaction (oxydation), E-Cat is based on nuclear reaction which is something totally different. You cant regulate nuclear reaction at the same easiness as burning process. Rossi mentioned that there is some degree of flexibility, but not the same as regular heating systems. I think you need minimum heat power to keep nuclear processes running on (to have sufficiently high temperature to keep hydrogen in atomic state H1 as opposed to molecular state H2).
Quote from: jan.kolar on January 23, 2012, 03:30:35 PM
I disagree with you. Its not the same situation as with gas heater, at least at contemporary level of knowledge. You are mixing to things that should be hold apart. Burning of gas is chemical reaction (oxydation), E-Cat is based on nuclear reaction which is something totally different. You cant regulate nuclear reaction at the same easiness as burning process. Rossi mentioned that there is some degree of flexibility, but not the same as regular heating systems. I think you need minimum heat power to keep nuclear processes running on (to have sufficiently high temperature to keep hydrogen in atomic state H1 as opposed to molecular state H2).
Jan, didn't Rossi do a demo having a selfsustaining setup?
I recall from his interviews that he mentions only in the initial startup phase e-cats need electrical power to start the process.
Once started, the units keep themselves running as long as heat is distracted in a sufficient amounts.
Too much heat distracted and the process will turn off, too small amount of heat distracted and the nickel powder will melt and the process also shuts down.
Ultimately, power for the pump can be generated by thermo-electric components, e.g. peltier elements, that converts heat into electricity once the units are up and running.
Quote from: a.king21 on January 23, 2012, 08:00:03 AM
John Michell has written a book on the e-cat. I know him personally. If he says it works - it works.
@a.king21:
Yes, much to the surprise of our (soon to be stripped of all credibility) negative audience, the E-Cat's technology hit the market (on schedule) last October and the home version of this product is scheduled for release before the end of this year.
This next upcoming event (the home version release) will help researchers here as well as at other sites (such as YouTube) avoid giving any credence to those who slammed the science that the E-Cat technology is based on (as well as those who defamed Mr. Rossi himself). Whether the reason is incompetency, jealousy or being secret disinformation agents from another industry; it simply will not matter in the end. Their stained and tainted reputations will precede them and stick to them like glue (even when they might actually be right about something in the future).
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on January 23, 2012, 06:43:37 PM
@a.king21:
Yes, much to the surprise of our (soon to be stripped of all credibility) negative audience, the E-Cat's technology hit the market (on schedule) last October and the home version of this product is scheduled for release before the end of this year.
This next upcoming event (the home version release) will help researchers here as well as at other sites (such as YouTube) avoid giving any credence to those who slammed the science that the E-Cat technology is based on (as well as those who defamed Mr. Rossi himself). Whether the reason is incompetency, jealousy or being secret disinformation agents from another industry; it simply will not matter in the end. Their stained and tainted reputations will precede them and stick to them like glue (even when they might actually be right about something in the future).
Best regards,
Chess
Very well put Chess. That DISINFORMATION PROGRAM. It's EXTRAORDINARY. Still alive and kicking in the face of the evidence. SO nice to see this thread up again. Well done. Let us know more about your own tests here Chess - if you get around to it.
My only regret is that this is not heralded by the media attention that those early Cold Fusion claims made. IF indeed those early claims had not been drummed out by competing interests - then by today we'd all be off grid. There would have been a more equitable distribution of access to electric supplies - globally. AND our chances of surviving our gross pollutions would be GREATLY diminished. Frankly I think that Rossi has - single handedly - salvaged our future. We'll need all the energy that we can access if we're actually precipitating a COLD snap that typically follows hot on the heels of global warming. And the best news yet. If this global warming is going to raise sea levels - then at it's least. We could desalinate some of that excess and use it to 'flower the deserts' - I think was our biblical promise.
It's all good.
Kindest and best Chess, and delighted to see you AND this thread back up.
Rosemary
Quote from: neptune on January 23, 2012, 10:26:53 AM
@Chessynt. Thanks for the trouble you have gone to in order to give us this information .In the end we will all have to wait and see what happens . Personally , I believe Rossi is on the level . I am not a young man , but hope to live long enough to enjoy the low cost heat from an E-cat .
@Neptune:
You are very welcome, Neptune. I was very happy to share the news of this great technological breakthrough from the onset. Despite being rough around my edges, I possess an almost instinctual love and concern for my fellow man. I don't like to see anyone suffer and right now people are freezing in third world countries while I sit here typing out this reply in my warm two story cozy home on my laptop. I would be so thrilled to see EVERYONE warm at night no matter how much (or little) silver they have in their pockets.
I am working very hard in another field of research (although energy related) to help bring about the same kind of change that Mr. Rossi is making possible right now. My hat is off to Mr. Rossi as the clear winner to the market place and soon, the whole world.
Warm regards,
Chess
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on January 23, 2012, 07:36:07 PM
Very well put Chess. That DISINFORMATION PROGRAM. It's EXTRAORDINARY. Still alive and kicking in the face of the evidence. SO nice to see this thread up again. Well done. Let us know more about your own tests here Chess - if you get around to it.
My only regret is that this is not heralded by the media attention that those early Cold Fusion claims made. IF indeed those early claims had not been drummed out by competing interests - then by today we'd all be off grid. There would have been a more equitable distribution of access to electric supplies - globally. AND our chances of surviving our gross pollutions would be GREATLY diminished. Frankly I think that Rossi has - single handedly - salvaged our future. We'll need all the energy that we can access if we're actually precipitating a COLD snap that typically follows hot on the heels of global warming. And the best news yet. If this global warming is going to raise sea levels - then at it's least. We could desalinate some of that excess and use it to 'flower the deserts' - I think was our biblical promise.
It's all good.
Kindest and best Chess, and delighted to see you AND this thread back up.
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
Back in the day, it used to be called "propaganda" and was mainly used to sell wars and dishearten enemy forces. Now its label has changed but the intent is still the same.
Now it's even being used to suppress technologies and cover secrets of the state.
It's the same tactic being used by our current military and sold out political whores to sell us the new war against Iran. Iran is our friend. It is our military that has violated their country by illegally entering their airspace with our spy (unmanned drone) aircraft. And although Korea has a nuclear weapon (of mass destruction), we are not talking about invading North Korea despite the fact that these people are bragging about the fact that they indeed possess one.
It wasn't too long ago that the American public was sold a war against Iraq on false pretenses (disinformation). And even when the lie was uncovered, that crooked administration chose to "...stay the course." rather than right the wrong and get the hell out of there.
Disinformation is alive and well in so many different aspects of our culture that I can't list them all in one sitting. But no matter what you call it, the objective remains the same.
Best regards,
Chess
P.S. Thanks for the welcome back from my vacation. Also, I love the idea of turning deserts into forests and using man's advances for a good cause. Good to see you again my dear ;)
Quote from: teslaalset on January 23, 2012, 04:52:45 PM
Too much heat distracted and the process will turn off, too small amount of heat distracted and the nickel powder will melt and the process also shuts down.
You are right but i remember that rossi said that even when reaction automatically stop, device would need repair (at leas to change the fuel because nickel needs to be in powder form).
News on Defkalion
January 23, 2012:
Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. (PDGT) is ready to further allow
third parties to evaluate its core technology: a multi stage LENR reaction between
Nickel and Hydrogen:
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-01-23_Independent_Testing_on_Hyperion_Reactors.pdf (http://www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edefkalion-energy%2Ecom%2Ffiles%2F2012-01-23_Independent_Testing_on_Hyperion_Reactors%2Epdf&urlhash=zKDz&_t=tracking_anet)
We are extremely lucky to have Defkalion as a backup if something goes awry with the efforts of Andrea Rossi.
What I am going to expand here is not negativity or pessimism, even if it looks like it at first sight.
But we have to be aware of the fact that Andrea Rossi is a direct threat to those who are in control of the grid.
First of all I am worried about the naivity of Andrea Rossi regarding the location of the production plans to the US.
If there is any country with a vile and unscrupulous tradition to supress new technologies that threatens the energy cartel, it is the US.
What really worries me is the US MegaWatt customer that has presently secured all production into one single direction, away from any other customer.
This customer keeps a total anonymity, but much points to the US military. Why are they ordering every MW unit producable from Andrea Rossi?
I really don't want to, but I keep seing a pattern here.
If you really want to supress the discovery of Andrea Rossi, you simply keep all domestic units out of sight from anyone else. Then you arrange so that all
promises of delivery are repeatedly postphoned until the delays are extended enough in time to start spreading a distrust. We all know that the
worst attack on our trust would be a product that never seems to show up.
So who are the guys behind the facility in Florida that have promised to create a robot line for mass production?
I have ordered four units myself, will I ever get them?
Anyone who have read about the fate of Victor Schauberger after being persuaded by a company to come to the US to mass produce his implosion engine.
These guys pretended to run a big company, but there was no company, it was all set up to supress the invention of Victor Schauberger.
In my opinion Andrea Rossi is additionally making a huge mistake by succumbing to the temptation of personal wealth when it concerns a discovery of this magnitude.
A discovery of this magnitude should be open source, and nobody would be able to stop it, and Andrea Rossi would get his Nobel Price and become
the most welcome guest on the whole planet. He wouldn't need any money.
Gwandau
As I have said I believe the Ecat technology is real . I live in the UK . The thing that worries me is that my country , That once lead the world in many technologies , will be left behind . If it was down to me , our government would be all over Rossi trying to get a manufacturing license . We desperately need the money , jobs , and benefits of this . This would turn around our failing economy . We could benefit from 10 factories spread around the country in the poorest areas , and training facilities for staff for manufacture and installation . But our so called leaders do nothing whilst the ship sinks .
@Gwandau :
What you are worried about is a legitimate concern and one I also considered when the additional order for 12 one megawatt units was placed by the same anonymous customer. If they did manage to bamboozle Rossi into a trap, we would never know who to go after for answers if the E-Cat simply disappeared.
I do not know what Rossi's security protocols entail so I don't know what he has done to prepare. It may be best if he leaves his contingency plans (if he actually has any) unreleased so as to not warn his enemies what to be prepared for.
I am so with you on this one as I am sure that energy cartels turning in billion dollar earnings each quarter are not going to stand by and watch someone come along and steal their customers causing them to become all but obsolete without fighting back. I too hope that Rossi is cautious with his new plant opening up in Florida for production. I have no idea what and who is behind that whole deal Rossi is currently involved in.
Chess
@ CC,
I didn’t want to put Rossi down although I surely did not expect to find evidences that he faked his own demo.
The fact that reactor was not working in that movie is now a certainty to me. It surely is a certainty to other very respectable members (TK for instance).
Did Rossi know that his reactor was not working? Surely he did.
Could he make the reactor work? Most probably yes. Even if not, there were other devices available that could be used as replacement.
So, the big question is: why did he actually fake his own proof?!!!
There are two alternatives:
1. He is a con.
2. There is something there he could not afford to reveal.
I don’t believe in 1, at least not yet.
Speaking about 2, we may get a meaningful hint out of it. I don’t know if a catalyst in the form of a chemical element is employed or not inside the reactor but nevertheless, imho it seems to me that Rossi uses a kind of ‘something’ for exciting the reaction chamber and that ‘something’ is noticeable (sound, ultrasound, HV?!) for a human being.
Opinions?
Best regards,
Tinu
Quote from: neptune on January 24, 2012, 04:29:44 PM
As I have said I believe the Ecat technology is real . I live in the UK . The thing that worries me is that my country , That once lead the world in many technologies , will be left behind . If it was down to me , our government would be all over Rossi trying to get a manufacturing license . We desperately need the money , jobs , and benefits of this . This would turn around our failing economy . We could benefit from 10 factories spread around the country in the poorest areas , and training facilities for staff for manufacture and installation . But our so called leaders do nothing whilst the ship sinks .
I'm with you there Hope. Boots line and sinker. I've got the same problem here. I've actually gone to some considerable trouble to put it on RECORD at our Ministry of Energy - that no-one claim that they were not aware of this. But they're so SLOW. It kills me.
Take care there. So nice to see that this thread is bubbling. I'm a bit hamstrung as I'm fighting my corner a bit. But it's always a pleasure to dip in here.
Kindest and best,
Rosie
Quote from: chessnyt on January 24, 2012, 10:43:21 PM
@Gwandau :
What you are worried about is a legitimate concern and one I also considered when the additional order for 12 one megawatt units was placed by the same anonymous customer. If they did manage to bamboozle Rossi into a trap, we would never know who to go after for answers if the E-Cat simply disappeared.
I do not know what Rossi's security protocols entail so I don't know what he has done to prepare. It may be best if he leaves his contingency plans (if he actually has any) unreleased so as to not warn his enemies what to be prepared for.
I am so with you on this one as I am sure that energy cartels turning in billion dollar earnings each quarter are not going to stand by and watch someone come along and steal their customers causing them to become all but obsolete without fighting back. I too hope that Rossi is cautious with his new plant opening up in Florida for production. I have no idea what and who is behind that whole deal Rossi is currently involved in.
Chess
A very nice point here Chess. He does indeed, need to be careful. But I suspect he knows. From that earlier history of his would have been a salutary lesson. The guy is really strong.
Kindest and best,
Rosie
This E-cat thingie changes matter, now from nickel to copper. See the possibilities ? Put in some lead powder (thats close to gold in periodic table right?), then you get heat and some gold powder from reaction. Wonder if Rossi has already tested that ? Possibly. If it has worked then it is wise of him to keep it quiet. Once those home units are out, then he smashes to flies at the same blow. Oil dependency and gold dependency.
Hmm, now I wonder if it is possible to get gold plating on my car, E-cat would provide enough gold for me, lol. There was some oil sheik from Saudi arabia who ordered car made of silver from Mercedes. Poor guy, its gotta be gold to impress the chicks !
But seriously, all experimenters out there, if you get E-cat you should do some tinkering with it.
Quote from: neptune on January 24, 2012, 04:29:44 PM
As I have said I believe the Ecat technology is real . I live in the UK . The thing that worries me is that my country , That once lead the world in many technologies , will be left behind . If it was down to me , our government would be all over Rossi trying to get a manufacturing license . We desperately need the money , jobs , and benefits of this . This would turn around our failing economy . We could benefit from 10 factories spread around the country in the poorest areas , and training facilities for staff for manufacture and installation . But our so called leaders do nothing whilst the ship sinks .
@Neptune:
This technology will help out your country's economy providing its allowed to be sold in your country. Even if E-Cats are not manufactured there, the cost of doing business (due to the cheap energy source) will decline which will in turn lower each industry's overhead which will lead to the lowering of prices of goods and services. This will definitely stimulate every economy the E-Cat is allowed to enter.
Chess
@Everyone:
Rossi comments on National Instruments which is helping with the controllers of the E-Cat:
"Yes, we are working very well with NI, and we are learning a lot from them. And surely their technology is helping us in the stability issue, and this will be very useful, mainly in the path to arrive at the production of electricity. Because you could ask me why are you able to produce heat, and are you not yet able to make electricity. While it will be very easy turn heat into electricity, it is not a big issue to turn heat into electricity. Yes, theoretically the effect is that to make electricity with acceptable efficiency, you must have temperatures of at least 400 Celsius degrees. And which means kind of around 1,000 degrees. And this factor makes unstable the reactor. Now we have a very good stability now, and the E-Cat up to 120C degrees is very stable and works properly with no problems at all, without peaks. One year ago we had problems of peaks, that made unstable the reactor. Now, after one year we have reached a very good stability until 120C. So to make heat is not a problem. To go higher than that, because you know, theoretically should be easy to raise the temperature. Because you put in series instead of in parallel the E-Cats, and put them in series you should raise the temperature. Yes, this is true, but unfortunately when we arrived to high temperatures we had problems. And, but we are resolving these problems. And we are resolving this problem with the help of the customer that had bought the one megawatt plant. By the way, you have assisted to the test of that plant. Because I invited you. And with the help of National Instruments which is a wonderful, a wonderful supplier, because their philosophy is to teach to their customer to fish. They said to me in one of the first meetings I had with their managers and their scientists, they said we want to teach to your company to.. We want not just to sell to you a fish. But we want to, we... we want they said, you to learn to fish, because if you learn to fish, we can go fishing together. And upgrade together the technology. And this philosophy of theirs is a philosophy that will give very good results."
Rossi explains why he doesn't do testing anymore (except with customers for verification of the technology purposes) and rarely does anymore press conferences:
"Thank you. Thank you. I can assure you that the time we do not spend in conferences is spent in doing things. I am maybe rightly, I want to say many people complain that we never go to conferences. You know, and such kind of things etc etc. The problem is that I do not have the time, because to make all this it is necessary to work 15 or 16 hours a day. If you go around the world to make tests, conferences, etc, you cannot work. The problem is that we have a road map that is scheduled in very fast times, and we have absolutely not time to lose. And about NI, national instruments, what I want to say is also this... They are exactly, they are very fast. You know, they are very fast in everything, and this is a good thing."
Here, Rossi describes the look and the ease of changing out the used up Ni cartridges/refills of the E-Cat home units:
"It will look like a small portable computer. It will have close the dimensions of a small portable computer, and it will be possible to apply heat to any existing heater. So you will just heat up.. You know the model for me has been the software of Microsoft. The software of Microsoft is a processor that you insert into any computer of the world. And the concept is the same. The E-Cat will be a processor able to make heat that you can.. in any kind of heater existing in the world in a very simple way, and every contractor or installer will be able to plug it in. And to refill it which is neccsary every six months, or every 180 days of operation, it will be very easy, because it will be like to refill a pen, and this will be the E-Cat. "
Enjoy,
Chess
I like his style Chess. Thanks for those extracts. I see the logic. They're making a one size fits all. BRILLIANT.
I'm amused at the lilt of his dialogue. Intriguing.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on January 27, 2012, 01:13:33 AM
I like his style Chess. Thanks for those extracts. I see the logic. They're making a one size fits all. BRILLIANT.
I'm amused at the lilt of his dialogue. Intriguing.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
The excerpts I have been quoting are from his most recent interview which I believe may be his longest thus far. I am about 2/3rds of the way through this interview quoting only the highlights (in chronological order) as this is over an hour and a half long interview.
This is such a significant interview because Rossi is revealing the current status of his technology and never before mentioned details on its operation.
@Everyone:
Rossi explains how long the E-Cat will operate before it needs refueling and also different operating scenarios:
"...when I say that a charge lasts one hundred and eighty days, I mean one hundred and eighty operational days. So if you use it in.... if you use it for one month of the year, one charge will last six years, not six months. The charge is consumed only if you need the operation. If you do not need the operation you turn the E-Cat off, and after thirty minutes or one hour maximum, the E-Cat is turned off and consumes nothing." Here, Rossi gives the estimated cost of the home unit's refill cartridge and the difficulty level of changing it out:
"The re-fill cost, if you change the re-fill yourself, it is basically nothing. Just the cost of the cartridge. A cartridge can cost ten dollars, and to change it yourself, it's over. You have to spend nothing more. If not, you have to pay the installer, the trip that, the return trip he has to make to come to your house and change it." Rossi announces for the first time that his home units do not require a hydrogen canister and thus never needs to be replaced with the Ni cartridges:
"Here we have a big surprise. This is a big surprise. It is very likely that the E-Cats we are working with now, work without canisters of hydrogen, because we have resolved the problem with a substance that inside the reactor stores and recycles the hydrogen. Consuming it, but you know we consume a picogram of hydrogen, and so a charge of ten grams lasts six months of operation. So basically, we have resolved the problem of the canister. The problem of the canister was very big for the domestic E-Cats. Because to get a safety certifications for an apparatus that has a tank of hydrogen, was very difficult. And so we have resolved the problem. This is a tremendous improvement of our technology that we made in these last times." -- Andrea Rossi Enjoy,
Chess
@Chessnyt . Thanks for your reply about my country`s economy . Hopefully , some day we will be able to manufacture E-cats under license . I had another thought about E-cats . In winter , people will run them 24/7 because that will be easier and cheaper than starting and stopping them . Large cities will have millions of them .I worry that this may have a negative influence on climate change , just due to the ambient heat floating about .
Quote from: neptune on January 28, 2012, 01:15:44 PM
@Chessnyt . Thanks for your reply about my country`s economy . Hopefully , some day we will be able to manufacture E-cats under license . I had another thought about E-cats . In winter , people will run them 24/7 because that will be easier and cheaper than starting and stopping them . Large cities will have millions of them .I worry that this may have a negative influence on climate change , just due to the ambient heat floating about .
I've heard that concern before. The good news is that with all that spare energy - we'd be able to more or less 'organise' our climate - as required. In any event. I'd LOVE to have that problem. Right now - our toxic misuse of our energy supplies are life threatening. Certainly to the health of our poor abused planet. I'd have thought?
It's all problematic Neptune. But there's also - at it's least - some considerable hope now. And I'll put money on it that the E-cat won't be the final solution. It's that door just opening - thing. We're at the dawn of a new era. And it's got to be more hopeful that our current plight. Which is pitiable - indeed.
Take heart Neptune. It's a good thing. And better still. It's just the start.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Hi Rosemary , and thanks for your reply . Having thought about it , a large percentage of wasted heat is there already , except it is created from fossil fuels . also , in time , better controls will be introduced so people can turn down the heat instead of opening the windows . In the longer term , these better controls will be essential for road transport applications ; you don`t want the car giving off 10 Kilowatts of excess heat in the garage overnight .
Quote from: neptune on January 28, 2012, 03:51:17 PM
Hi Rosemary , and thanks for your reply . Having thought about it , a large percentage of wasted heat is there already , except it is created from fossil fuels . also , in time , better controls will be introduced so people can turn down the heat instead of opening the windows . In the longer term , these better controls will be essential for road transport applications ; you don`t want the car giving off 10 Kilowatts of excess heat in the garage overnight .
There you go. It's still got a silver lining. Frankly I have not found better news anywhere - in all my life - than this breakthrough. It keeps me on a permanent high.
And Chess - many, many thanks for giving us those detailed transcripts. They're GOLD
Kindest to you all, and best wishes - as ever. This year is likely to ROCK.
Rosie
@Everyone:
Rossi's plans to make his products more affordable and speed up delivery time:
"It is basically automation. Automation. Basically, it is that. Basically, it is.. we are engineering a factory where we can automatize everything at the maximum level. To cut the times, to cut the costs of assembling, and that's it."
More on Rossi's marketing and installation strategies:
"We are organizing the network. With licenses and with agencies. We will end, we will also sell the E-Cats in the internet. And again, to organize the assistance network, we will ask to the customers to put us in contact with their usual trusted contractor or plumber or installer... So that we will have the experience there. He will have the usual assistance, and we will extend this way in an assistance network close to where have real customers."
When asked if the home unit will run in self-looped mode:
"Yes, sure. Automatically, the E-Cat will go into self-sustain mode when control system will decide. The 10 kilowatt E-Cat will work exactly as the one megawatt E-Cat under this point of view. This will be a completely automatically done. It is not something like in an electric car. Like in today's electric car, is the control system that decides when it goes by gas or goes by the battery. The driver has just to drive. The E-Cat will go into self-sustain mode or in drive mode, automatically. This will not be a choice of the owner."
Chess
Hi All;
I was just looking at Rossi's nemesis/competitor's site at http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ and this week they announced a proposal for "Independent Testing on Hyperion Reactors" which is good news because it should lead to further independent tests and expose this Cold Fusion/LENR process as a reality once it's validated and published.
Here's the link to the pdf and the testing protocols http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-01-23_Independent_Testing_on_Hyperion_Reactors.pdf
@ Rosie "It's that door just opening - thing." LOL
Regards,
Paul
Quote from: Goat on January 28, 2012, 11:03:48 PM
Hi All;
I was just looking at Rossi's nemesis/competitor's site at http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/) and this week they announced a proposal for "Independent Testing on Hyperion Reactors" which is good news because it should lead to further independent tests and expose this Cold Fusion/LENR process as a reality once it's validated and published.
Here's the link to the pdf and the testing protocols http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-01-23_Independent_Testing_on_Hyperion_Reactors.pdf (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-01-23_Independent_Testing_on_Hyperion_Reactors.pdf)
@ Rosie "It's that door just opening - thing." LOL
Regards,
Paul
@Goat:
Very nice work, Paul! In addition to revealing the mysteries surrounding this ground breaking technology, there is also another benefit. This premature publishing of the secrets behind the technology will minimize Rossi's head start taking it to market which will lead to an abundance of new competition thus preventing a monopoly.
And they're off!!!
Best Regards,
Chess
@Chess...I find it interesting that Defkalion claims in their pdf file that "PDGT has successfully completed its scientific, technological and engineering steps necessary to sustain such a reaction with results exceeding a COP of 20 and with temperatures capable to exceed 650 degrees Celsius." Where in the above quote from Rossi's "Yes, theoretically the effect is that to make electricity with acceptable efficiency, you must have temperatures of at least 400 Celsius degrees. And which means kind of around 1,000 degrees. And this factor makes unstable the reactor."
It seems that Defkalion has overcome the temperature and stability of their reactor so as to be able to make electricity from their units given the amount of heat required as compared to Rossi's statement of the E-Cat not being there yet.
Makes one wonder what improvements can be made once independent tests are done and found out to be viable in electricity generation.
Lets hope the forthcoming tests prove this technology to be viable.
Regards,
Paul
Defkalion claim to know how Rossi's Ecat works but claim that they use different technology. Perhaps thats the reason why they can achieve high temps, yet Rossi can't. Rossi states the reason his system is safe is because at higher temperatures the nickel powder melts into a lump. As its not a powder anymore the reaction fails. That sounds entirely reasonable. So perhaps Defkalion are use some form of nanotech, perhaps nano capsules that release the nickel powder as required and allows for higher temperature?
Just guesswork of course.
What is more interesting about Defkalions announcement is that it places huge pressure on Rossi to 'come clean' so to speak. Rossi spends much of his time beating around the bush. He either believes he has an unbeatable position and can afford to play games or is totally out of touch with reality. He seems to fail to understand people are not going to trust him until his claims are proven without a doubt.
So now that Defkalion have upped the anti (Which came as a surprise to me, they seemed to be all words no action until that announcement). Rossi will have to respond or be left behind. It also seems to prove that once the basic mechanism is understood that there are many ways to skin the LENR cat and that is fantastic. it means there will be lots of companies creating the tech and competition is a good thing.
If you haven't watched this series of clips I really suggest you do its a great primer on cold fusion and the state of play up until October.
Parts 1 .. 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtweR_qGHEc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtweR_qGHEc)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeikEgjC1qg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeikEgjC1qg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqeA8n37XFg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqeA8n37XFg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_XN52jXl78 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_XN52jXl78)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYZfgvSFYDM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYZfgvSFYDM)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3N3dWlIPUQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3N3dWlIPUQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QhIWrA4pGI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QhIWrA4pGI)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWkVyg_iul4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWkVyg_iul4)
What is most fascinating is that with deuterium and palladium (original Pons & Fliechsman method) the chance of success was low but with the hydrogen nickel combination there was almost a 100% success rate in anomalous energy production.
One thing that troubles me about Defkalions announcement is they havent said they have invited companies/institutes to come and do testing. Surely they would have a shortlist of those they trust to do the testing properly SRI international (from the vids above) seem to be a good choice. Of course NASA, University of Bolgna are other good choices I wouldnt invite MIT I don't know if they can be trusted, it was them that sank Pons and Fleischman.
Perhaps if they sent out particular invites they have kept that list to themselves.
CC
Quote from: CuriousChris on January 29, 2012, 03:36:12 AM
Defkalion claim to know how Rossi's Ecat works but claim that they use different technology. Perhaps thats the reason why they can achieve high temps, yet Rossi can't. Rossi states the reason his system is safe is because at higher temperatures the nickel powder melts into a lump. As its not a powder anymore the reaction fails. That sounds entirely reasonable. So perhaps Defkalion are use some form of nanotech, perhaps nano capsules that release the nickel powder as required and allows for higher temperature?
Just guesswork of course.
Chris, reading your reply, it seems you are not completely on par with the latest situations. I'll comment through your posting here.
Regarding the temperature, it all depends on where the actual temperature was measured.
In the case of Rossi, the water temperature that comes out of the e-cat is maximized to 120 degrees (depending on the water pressure). The actual Nickel core temperature will be significantly higher. It all depends on the efficiency of the heat exchanger.
It may well be that Defkalion is measuring their core temperature.
Quote
What is more interesting about Defkalions announcement is that it places huge pressure on Rossi to 'come clean' so to speak. Rossi spends much of his time beating around the bush. He either believes he has an unbeatable position and can afford to play games or is totally out of touch with reality. He seems to fail to understand people are not going to trust him until his claims are proven without a doubt.
Meanwhile Rossi has received more than 50 000 pre-orders, while his price is rapidly going down (40-50 $/KW for the home units).
He's very aware of his competitors. It seems there are even more companies at the verge of announcing products.
You should really look at Rossi's recent interview : http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/transcription.htm (http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/transcription.htm)
Here, he mentions his strategy towards his potential competitors.
Potential third party: Piantelli (www.nichenergy.com (http://www.nichenergy.com)). Nothing really concrete, but Piantelli's patent has been extended in Nov. 2011 and reveals similar methodologies. Piantelli's patent position is more solid than Rossi's. Mind the first 4 characters of his company: Ni - C - H, suggesting Nickel, Carbon and Hydrogen, similar to the elements mentioned in the NASA publication by Zawodny (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiQdl61c7O0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiQdl61c7O0)).
Defkalion mentions patent applications but they were filed quite recent, so not published and approved yet.
There are several others that claim to have found reproducable 'e-cat' methods, but their claims and background are such that I won't mention them here. This will only clutter focus on the real candidates.
The interesting thing is that replication seems quite easy.
This makes short term breakthroughs even more likely.
Quote
So now that Defkalion have upped the anti (Which came as a surprise to me, they seemed to be all words no action until that announcement). Rossi will have to respond or be left behind. It also seems to prove that once the basic mechanism is understood that there are many ways to skin the LENR cat and that is fantastic. it means there will be lots of companies creating the tech and competition is a good thing.
Rossi spend years working together with Focardi and Piantelli at the university of Bologna on this, while Defkalion basically reverse engineered the e-cat while working out a prototype for Rossi. I am not sure Defkalion is really ahead. The coming months some prove will appear (see my comments below).
Quote
What is most fascinating is that with deuterium and palladium (original Pons & Fliechsman method) the chance of success was low but with the hydrogen nickel combination there was almost a 100% success rate in anomalous energy production.
Mainly due to Focardi, who was first in publishing results on Ni + H2 already years ago. Seems the Italian were already on the right track years ago. If you want a nice overview of what has been achieved over the last 23 years since Pons and Fleischmann, I recommend reading "The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions [cold fusion] - E. Storms (World, 2007)".
Quote
One thing that troubles me about Defkalions announcement is they havent said they have invited companies/institutes to come and do testing. Surely they would have a shortlist of those they trust to do the testing properly SRI international (from the vids above) seem to be a good choice. Of course NASA, University of Bolgna are other good choices I wouldnt invite MIT I don't know if they can be trusted, it was them that sank Pons and Fleischman.
Perhaps if they sent out particular invites they have kept that list to themselves.
See http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-01-23_Independent_Testing_on_Hyperion_Reactors.pdf (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-01-23_Independent_Testing_on_Hyperion_Reactors.pdf)
Defkalion invites knowledgable institutes and companies for evaluation of their Hyperion product the upcoming 2 months.
This will prove Defkalions present status.
@teslaalset
I don't disagree with anything you have said. I did read the transcript as well. I even contacted Underwriter Laboratories that Rossi mentions. They said they have "no device from Leonardo corporation in their list of devices certified". That of course does not mean its not in the process of certification.
I have read Dekalions notice also. it wasn't the notice that concerned me it was the lack of specific invites. I would have been public about it by saying we invited NASA, SRI and others to test our device. Apart from that I have no issues with the notice.
As for the Rossi transcript. It's just words. with no concrete third party and reliable proof it is meaningless. There may be 50,000 pre orders but that is also meaningless. Anybody with as much press as he has had recently can easilly get 50,000 preorders when no money needs to be put on the table, I even considered preordering. That part definately reeks of a scam. "See Mr X we have 50K pre ordered if you give us $10M you can be our agent".
50,000 or 5,000,000 means nothing if no device is ever produced. or takes another 10 years to produce.
Why I am impressed with Defkalion is they have said it works, we are happy and to prove it you can test it with YOUR EQUIPMENT and PUBLISH the results. Rossi was never that open. At least now the pressure is on him. and it appears to be working I have heard he has entered into another agreement with the bologna university and this time its less restrictive.
This is all good news!
I havent read E. storms book, but there was an interview I have been meaning to watch but haven't yet.
CC
Quote from: CuriousChris on January 29, 2012, 03:36:12 AM
What is more interesting about Defkalions announcement is that it places huge pressure on Rossi to 'come clean' so to speak. Rossi spends much of his time beating around the bush. He either believes he has an unbeatable position and can afford to play games or is totally out of touch with reality. He seems to fail to understand people are not going to trust him until his claims are proven without a doubt.
@CuriousChris :
I agree with most of what you say here but I don't believe Rossi thinks he has an unbeatable position or is out of touch with reality. Rossi is very aware that his position is extremely beatable as evidenced by his statements concerning reverse engineering of his products which you can find in my previous postings quoting his most recent interview's transcript.
I believe that Rossi wants to delay the inevitable (because he sees this in the foreseeable future reality) by refusing to allow competent scientists inside of the heart of his technology as he realizes that an NDA cannot keep someone from talking in secret meetings. How would you prove that? It would be very difficult to prove.
He hopes that the cloning of his technology occurs after his first batch of home E-Cats roll out which affords him a very healthy head start against the competition and maximizes his initial profits. He is very in touch with reality as his strategy demonstrates this, however, he has not factored in the Defkalion disclosure.
Chess
Hi CC,
Excellent info from the clips ‘Cafe Scientifique Silicon Valley.’ I was hungry for more but it’s much better now. ;)
Hi all,
During last month I’ve ordered the necessary chemicals to take the Ni route. I’ve conducted several Ni electro-depositions and that was an easy part. In the last week I’ve started electrochemically loading of H into Ni cathodes but that’s a field I have no training and nada experience. If there is someone knowledgeable and/or experienced around, preferably a chemist/electrochemist I’d appreciate very much any info /advices he/she could provide on the subject. Anyway, after listening carefully to Mr. McKubre, I’m not sure Ni electrochemical loading is the route to go. If Pd diffusion times is relatively short and initiation still requires many days (typically weeks), I’m afraid for Ni it can take ...ages?!
On the other hand, after an initial&quick assessment of the available alternatives, I was very skeptical about Les Case but currently I’m reconsidering. I still think it’s almost too good to be true: atmospheric pressure, powder Ni (which I have it too), relatively small temperatures and carbon catalyst (ha! I would’ve never guessed that!). The only difficulty is with D2 gas but I hope that can be solved and maybe it works with a D2/H2 mixture. I’d also like to discuss Les Case route and, if someone interested, to explore it together.
Best regards,
Tinu
Some vague photo and video shots from the lab of Defkalion on core testing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuRGpRZ1t5E&feature=g-u-u&context=G20f77cdFUAAAAAAACAA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuRGpRZ1t5E&feature=g-u-u&context=G20f77cdFUAAAAAAACAA)
@Everyone:
When asked about evidence of the type of reaction inside the reactor:
"The transmutation of nickel to copper is a side effect of the working of the E-Cat. The main effect that happens inside is an effect that needs low energy gamma rays. The transmutation to copper is a side effect. Yes, we have got evidence of 511, 180 degree couples... I mean 511 kevs gammas, at 180 degrees. We got them which come from the reaction between the matter of the electrons and the anti-matter of the positrons. But this is just a side effect, but you know... To explain exactly the theory of what happens inside, until we decide to disclose the technology, it is basically not possible. But again, yes we got evidence, we got evidence and we will publish the documents about this of the 511 kevs, but I am afraid that this language is a bit too difficult for the audience that we have tonight."
When Rossi was asked yet once again about the confidential customer:
"No. I cannot comment at all, because maybe that I gave this information about this because the issue is that the customer is a kind of customer that absolutely wants not to be disclosed. I am bound to an NDA, and I cannot absolutely add anything to this."
I find the principle from the last quote to be very admirable. From a businessman's perspective, keeping the customer's wishes (as well as honoring a legal binding contract) is truly professional. Sure, Rossi could divulge the customer's name, but then he could jeopardize losing his best (and biggest so far) customer which has afforded him the capital to further and expand his business enabling him to take his operation to the next level. From the standpoint of a customer, this obviously instills trust and good faith.
When asked if there have been additional one megawatt units sold besides the first 13 that we knew about:
"Yes. We have sold another one and we have many, many in discussion."
Go Rossi go!
Chess
Do you know this man's history? Sheesh!
Quote from: happyfunball on January 30, 2012, 11:01:00 PM
This ridiculous scam is still being treated as if it's legit? Do you know this man's history? Sheesh!
I know your history. You will not be effective here anymore once the home units enter customer's homes.
@Happyfunball:
Now tell everybody here how NASA is just a bunch of scam artists too because they not only acknowledge LENR (the technology the E-Cat is based on) but they also endorse it. But you know science better than the head scientists over at NASA, don't you? Well of course your credentials outweigh the entire scientific staff so maybe you should singlehandedly take the place of NASA yourself? After all, you are quite a legend in your own mind.
Regarding the history of Andrea Rossi, he was freed of all charges on all points. You really don't have to be a bad guy to get into trouble with authorities,
especially if you got enemies that don't like what you are doing. The business being the cause of his former legal troubles is by the way the very business
that he has been able to sell and thus finance the e-cat project. Remember, he has financed the whole project himself and has been researching cold fusion for 18 years,
in spite of all sceptics and naysayers that have beem trying to discredit cold fusion all the way back to the time of the Fleischman and Pons discovery,
which was the very starting point for Andrea Rossis interest in cold fusion.
Sceptisism has nothing to do with science. A truly scientific standpoint is to be a both open minded and critical observer.
A sceptic mind reeks of preconceptions which is the obvious sign of rigidity, which in turn is the very signature of an uninventive mind.
And we have a lot of uninventive scientists today, who all keep a firm grip on the old school way of things, and if threatend those guys will attack you.
Fleischmann and Pons was intensely ridiculed at the time and it is not until now that the story behind the deliberate degradation of their validity as scientists has surfaced.
Today it is well known that there was a certain group of high ranked scientists at MIT that deliberately falsified mathematical proof against the validity of their calculations,
thus securing the continuance of billion dollar grants to the hot fusion project.
Andrea Rossi have stumbled upon something directly threatening status quo. I am fairly sure that if his enemies succeed in discrediting him, most of you guys here at the forum
will take the bait and move over to the sceptic side.
Don't forget that Andrea Rossi is threatening the biggest business in the world, the energy business. Do you really believe that they will let one single little man
topple their multi billion dollar business just like that. If he succeeds, he will take out the whole global oil business in a couple of years. Nobody want to buy petrol
anymore if the LENR does the job for free. And he will also take out the whole nuclear power industry just like that. Not to mention any other way to make electricity.
He will take them all out of business.
Also, he will threaten the very fundament of society, the monetary systems, when the major cogwheels of the infrastructure are forced to stop.
It's a game changer allright, but a much bigger one than we maybe understand.
Do you really think this little man will be allowed to put all the big ones on earth out of business?
Is there no one here that wonder were his enemies are? Because Andrea Rossi has by now stirred the wasp nest thoroghly. So were are they? Why this calm?
There is only one answer to this. They have already gone into action. They have already gone into active positions. And I have a hunch were to look.
First of all, the secrecy of the MW customer stinks. This is not a good start. It should have been a big wellknown company where we could follow the progress of the
installation, with all the plublicity needed for the propagation of the catalyze concept.
If Andrea Rossi is forced to postpone his deliveries of the domestic unit again and again due to unforseen problems with the manufacturer, we will start loosing confidence,
and I am sure you all will take the bait. Nothing hurts like a continued postponing of what is promised. Make him postpone his e-cat to 2014, and see what happens.
How many of you will loose your faith in Andrea Rossi if he never seems to deliver? He has already done his first postponing, changing delivery from 12 to 18 months.
Andrea Rossi should have let go of personal greed and made this open source from the beginning. Now the little man plays the game with the very guys who set the rules.
To me the outcome is inevitable. We are so easily manipulated, just play on the right strings....
And suddenly the ones that will turn their backs on him will be you.
Gwandau
http://pesn.com/2011/12/30/9601995_One_Full_Year_of_Andrea_Rossis_E-Cat/ (http://pesn.com/2011/12/30/9601995_One_Full_Year_of_Andrea_Rossis_E-Cat/)
Does Rossi power/ heat his home with an 'E-Cat?'
Of course not.
Does Sean McCarthy power his home with an 'Orbo?'
Of course not.
The list does on forever, peeps.
Quote from: happyfunball on January 31, 2012, 08:41:26 PM
Does Rossi power/ heat his home with an 'E-Cat?'
Of course not.
Does Sean McCarthy power his home with an 'Orbo?'
Of course not.
The list does on forever, peeps.
@Happyfunball:
NASA is NOT endorsing the science behind the Orbo. Just the LENR technology. Still waiting for your explanation of NASA's acknowledgement of the science that the E-Cat is based on...I think everybody noticed how you obviously ducked this question previously :o
Quote from: happyfunball on January 31, 2012, 08:41:26 PM
Does Rossi power/ heat his home with an 'E-Cat?'
Of course not.
are you sure ?
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/01/rossi-in-talks-with-home-depot-for-e-cat-distribution-interview-with-james-martinez-on-cah-flow-radio/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/01/rossi-in-talks-with-home-depot-for-e-cat-distribution-interview-with-james-martinez-on-cah-flow-radio/)
Quote
Rossi explains that Leonardo Corporation will communicate with local contractors to provide instructions on how to install E-Cat plants, and those contractors who wish to will be able to sign up to be certified technicians for installing E-Cats. Rossi also says that he is running test E-Cat units in his own home and in the homes of members of his team.
Oh, sorry, a radio interview with Rossi and NASA vaguely referring to LENR without showing any working devices clears it all up. Lol....
Troll alert.....
Why even bother about trolls? Just ignore them and they will dissolve in the air like a wisp of bad smell.
Anyone who have read the summary made by the two Swedish scientists who attended the 6 hour test at the Leonardocorp in Bologna will understand that there is no traditional
scientific way to describe what happens within the 50cc reactor during these six hours:
Below is an attached PDF file of a paper covering the experimental 6 hour test of a mini-Rossi device at the Leonardocorp, Bologna 29 March 2011, published by the two attending scientists from the Swedish University of Uppsala:
I have also attached The Rossi-Focardi paper published at the Bologna University as aPDF below.
And finally the application for the patent:
http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2009125444&recNum=1&maxRec=1&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=FP%3A%28WO%2F2009%2F125444%29&tab=PCT+Biblio (http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2009125444&recNum=1&maxRec=1&office=&prevFilter=&sortOption=&queryString=FP%3A%28WO%2F2009%2F125444%29&tab=PCT+Biblio)
Gwandau
Mainly in response to Gwandau's long post above...
I'm inclined to believe Rossi and others have done what they claim to have done. But until there's more wide-spread access to and testing of the devices, to the point where it's conclusive there haven't been any honest mistakes and the technology is viable in real world practical terms, I think it's natural to reserve at least some degree of doubt. However, my doubt will take the form of encouraging Rossi or anyone else to just get on with it and, basically, get the stuff out there. I see no point whatsoever in heaping on the skepticism or knee-jerk dismissals and presumptions and throwing up obstacles to hinder them in reaching their end-game. If they're all faking it, I just say, here, have more rope, get on with it and hang yourselves or use it to hurry up and help us all benefit from what you've achieved. It costs me nothing to assume the best and expect the worst. Some obviously take another approach though.
I'm also of the opinion though, that until these devices Rossi and others are working on are more widely checked out and tested, the whole LENR thing could still be knocked on the head and swept under the carpet even if all the claims being made about it are in fact entirely true. The limited media attention Rossi has gained so far won't mean a thing and could easily be turned against him with just a few falsified reports and 'official' announcements, leaving the committed skeptics to claim another 'victory', while those with entrenched interests in maintaining the so-called status-quo breathe a sigh of relief, as the 'believers' are left again to try and figure out if there really was or could actually be something to the technology they were so sure was legit.
As to who Rossi's big 'customer' is, Chessnyt suggested earlier it was/is the US Navy, and I think that'd be a pretty good guess. Of course it is just a guess, but if I had to make one that would be it. Unless someone can tell me who else is capable of spending that sort of money, for use in remote and inhospitable regions, while keeping it (and having the motivation to keep it) secret.
People might think that would be the last kind of organization to invest in this sort of technology, but in recent months the US Navy has made several public statements about their commitment to using more alternative sources of energy. They recently ran one of their ships on bio-fuel, and have stated they have throughout their history always been at the fore-front of using new technologies, going from sail to steam to diesel to nuclear power. They've even stated percentage goals they intend to achieve in regards to becoming less reliant on current fuels.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there.
In regards to the possible effects of this technology on society and the whole world, I agree it could be disruptive to the extreme. But people can adapt. :) And if one wants to consider all the possibilities, one must also consider the possibility that some form of this LENR stuff could be introduced in a limited, heavily regulated (albeit still wide-spread) way, so that nothing really changes except some shares in a bunch of companies change hands and all the oil being drilled stops getting burned up and gets re-directed into manufacturing uses. No big deal, lol.
Some people (myself included) seem to like to load up all sorts of other dreams and wants onto the free-energy horse. And imo there's nothing wrong with those dreams and hopes and wants, but surely they don't have to be mutually inclusive. I personally would like a bit of restructuring to go with my free-energy, and wouldn't like to see the opportunity for that to happen be squandered, but I'd consider settling for just a more efficient and environmentally friendly way of generating power. The power-deranged individuals running the show will come unstuck one way or another, and if it's going to happen later rather than sooner, then lets at least clean up our energy-producing act in the meantime, no-one has to lose out if it's done right.
Quote from: teslaalset on February 01, 2012, 07:46:55 AM
Troll alert.....
@teslaalset:
Thank you to everyone who recognizes the trolls when they briefly appear from time to time. They really think that they are fooling somebody (or peeps) but the truth is that everybody here knows a troll when one tries to spread disinformation and defamation around in a pretty educated forum.
And by the way; these trolls get paid pretty good money to post propaganda on this site as well as all of the other popular alternative energy sites. You have to understand that they are just here to make money. They can't defame NASA's scientists and they know that so the only place for them left to go is for Rossi. They are simply trying now to run a smear campaign against Rossi in hopes that this will win over the majorities opinions. It's an obvious ploy (because NASA is a tall order) to attack the messenger as such was the case with Pons and Fleishman 20 years ago.
I just thought I'd post the link again to the NASA video as I don't know for sure if all of our trolls have seen it yet. I know I should really ignore them but I guess I just get such a kick out of re-handing them their asses ;)
Now get with the NASA program, trolls...did you get the NASA memo yet?
Here's a link to NASA's acknowledgement of LENR technology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zgmdo4C1VQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zgmdo4C1VQ)
Enjoy trolls,
Chess
P.S. Oh yeah...did I remember to mention NASA's endorsement of LENR? I did mention NASA, right? ;D
For those who missed this news:
http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/successful-cold-fusionlanr-demonstration-at-mit-again/ (http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/successful-cold-fusionlanr-demonstration-at-mit-again/)
January 30-31, 2012 - Cambridge, MA. - As part of the IAP Course on COLD FUSION at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Mitchell Swartz, JET Energy, and Prof. Peter Hagelstein demonstrated cold fusion openly for scientists and engineers. The demonstration was a two day part of the detailed, yet overview, seven day course run by Prof. Hagelstein and Dr. Swartz, and followed the first open demonstrations of cold fusion at MIT in 2003. This JET Energy NANOR(TM) demonstrated a significant energy gain greater than 10, much larger than the previous open demonstration.
MIT is picking up short LERN courses (likely as a first step)
That makes the formal list of academic institutes paying attention to the recent progress of Rossi:
- MIT (US)
- Univ. Upsala (Sweden)
- Univ. Bolognia (Italy)
- NASA (US)
I would like to say how happy I am that the top academic institutes here in the UK are taking an interest in this . I would like to , but of course I can not because they are not interested .
Quote from: neptune on February 02, 2012, 06:07:38 AM
I would like to say how happy I am that the top academic institutes here in the UK are taking an interest in this . I would like to , but of course I can not because they are not interested .
Cheer up Neptune, everyone will benifit when this hits mainstream.
The Internet did not happen over night as well but it created a huge amounts of new jobs everywhere, including UK ;)
Cold Fusion experiments at MIT, the very symbol of cold fusion suppression! Wow! Seems like it is here to stay this time.
Anybody who knows where Fleischmann and Pons are these days? They should step back into the light. It´s payback time.
Gwandau
Quote from: happyfunball on January 31, 2012, 08:41:26 PM
Does Rossi power/ heat his home with an 'E-Cat?'
Of course not.
Does Sean McCarthy power his home with an 'Orbo?'
Of course not.
The list does on forever, peeps.
Hello Happy,
I'm relieved to see that you're still around - spreading 'sweetness and light' as PG Wodehouse puts it. Your input on these forums is as valued as are Poynty's and his 'friends'. Without your interest - and without your guidance, we none of us would know what to think about Rossi and his miracle breakthroughs.
I do have a small concern though. I believe that Rossi has powered his plant/laboratory 'exclusively' with this technology of his, for a full winters' season. In fact it was this evidence that he used as early proof of concept - for his colleague from Milan university. But there again. It may be that he - and they - were simply fabricating this. And frankly I'm not sure that it matters. Far better to simply ASSUME that he did nothing of the sort. Since when have the facts of history served any argument at all unless they can be varied as required. I'm with you on that. History is for the pragmatist and for the propagandist. Otherwise it's to be ignored.
And as a general rule I think we would all be well served to follow your lead - so to speak. We are all of us as trusting as children when it comes to these somewhat outlandish claims. Next thing we'll be expecting to find that our future's are likely to be grid free. And what would that help our monopolists? I ask you? Golly.
I think you need to follow Chess' advice here and contact NASA urgently. It seems that they are, indeed, infected with this same rather reckless reliance on experimental evidence. Whatever next? If all this nonsense keeps popping up - all over the place - then we'll all be inclined to believe that there's no real value in listening to you or in believing in you. And then? Where would you earn your livelihood? We can't have that happen.
Kindest as ever,
Rosie
According to the latest Peswiki article, Rossi can't manage to heat his factory. Amazing.
Quote from: teslaalset on February 02, 2012, 04:30:58 AM
For those who missed this news:
http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/successful-cold-fusionlanr-demonstration-at-mit-again/ (http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2012/02/01/successful-cold-fusionlanr-demonstration-at-mit-again/)
January 30-31, 2012 - Cambridge, MA. - As part of the IAP Course on COLD FUSION at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Mitchell Swartz, JET Energy, and Prof. Peter Hagelstein demonstrated cold fusion openly for scientists and engineers. The demonstration was a two day part of the detailed, yet overview, seven day course run by Prof. Hagelstein and Dr. Swartz, and followed the first open demonstrations of cold fusion at MIT in 2003. This JET Energy NANOR(TM) demonstrated a significant energy gain greater than 10, much larger than the previous open demonstration.
MIT is picking up short LERN courses (likely as a first step)
That makes the formal list of academic institutes paying attention to the recent progress of Rossi:
- MIT (US)
- Univ. Upsala (Sweden)
- Univ. Bolognia (Italy)
- NASA (US)
Great stuff. I believe you can also include the University of Athens and the University of Milan. It's spreading FAST.
Rosemary
Quote from: happyfunball on February 03, 2012, 07:23:58 AM
According to the latest Peswiki article, Rossi can't manage to heat his factory. Amazing.
And according to my own reading on this matter - and unrelated to Peswiki - he DID. So. There you have it. Two versions of the same story. Just shows what two people can do with one lonely FACT. But it's largely immaterial. There's a crisis afoot. You'd do far better by alerting NASA to the folly of further experimentation and more of those claims of theirs. Just concentrate on putting them right Happy. They really DO need your input. Otherwise they'll be carried away with all kinds of successful LENR experimentation - all OVER the place and then? God knows if you could ever stop it? If you could ever put out that 'new kind of fire'? as Rossi calls it.
And if I were you - I'd move fast. :o Don't worry so much about us. We'll just follow your lead - in a manner of speaking.
Again,
Rosemary
By the way (BTW) 8) Let us know what your communique says. I think we'd all like to read it. 8)
Dear Chess,
I deleted this post because I was worried it wouldn't be read as sarcastic. And that was certainly the intention. Apologies guys,
Kindest regards,
Rpsemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 03, 2012, 07:43:52 AM
Dear Chess,
I deleted this post because I was worried it wouldn't be read as sarcastic. And that was certainly the intention. Apologies guys,
Kindest regards,
Rpsemary
@Rosemary:
Yes, the trolls are fighting an uphill battle. The majority here are able to see through the attempted character assassination of Andrea Rossi. If you can not refute the science/technology, then make desperate attempts to discredit Rossi personally.
Unfortunately for the disinformation agents, even if they ever do manage to discredit Rossi, the science/technology remains completely unscathed. LENR is now endorsed and taught by mainstream academia so their efforts are futile and for not in the end. I've also noticed the increase of participation in this thread as another negative consequence of their attacks. They are doing a magnificent job of keeping this thread alive and at the top. For this I owe them a great deal of thanks ;)
It's great to hear from you as always, Rosemary. You certainly add (along with Teslaalset and all of the other voices of reason here) a strong rebuttal to the powers that were and then are no more. :-X
Thanks for the input,
Chess
I'll check back in a year or two when Rossi is still promising the eminent release of household 'E-Cats' and issuing Searl-esque reasons why it hasn't happened yet. As Andre wound say, Ciao.
@Everyone:
I am about 3/4 of the way through this interview. Here's some additional highlights.
Sterling Allen: Ok. Moving on. We want to talk about some challenges. We talked about certification and National Instruments. Ok, a while back you mentioned that with the help of the customer, you had been able to produce a steady output steam of 400 degrees C. And obtaining such high temperature steam helps make the process of electrical production more efficient. Have you made any additional progress on this front?
Andrea Rossi: Yes. We are learning a lot from the customer under this point of view. Because the same guy that you have seen of them which was a Colonel-Engineer has a very big experience in power plants and thermal dynamics. And we are learning very much. So, I think electricity from our E-Cats will come sooner than expected. Yes.
Sterling Allen: Thank you. Back to the home E-Cat size, could you give us an idea of how much energy is pulled when the unit is in start up mode, turning... lets say you turn the thermistat on. You have been away, and you turn on the thermostat. The house needs to heat up. What would be the amount of energy in kilowatts the device would pull when it is first starting.
Andrea Rossi: Yes. You consider that every 10 kilowatts of power draw about 2 point, during the start-up, the activation period, we draw about 2.7 or 2.9 kilowatts of power. Basically during the activation, you consume 2.7 to 2.9 kilowatt hours per hour. And this goes on for up to, depends on... in a small E-Cat it takes one hour. In a one megawatt plant it takes a couple of hours, because there we have more complex problems. But in any case, yes, the activation energy is 2.7 kilowatt hours per hour, every 10 kilowatts of power of the plant.
Sterling Allen: Also, the one megawatt size was made of about 100 modules with three reactors in each. Where the home unit would only have one module or one reactor unit per system?
Andrea Rossi: Yes.
Enjoy,
Chess
Great stuff Chess. And thank's for the transcription. MUCH appreciated.
KIndest as ever,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 04, 2012, 09:59:27 AM
Great stuff Chess. And thank's for the transcription. MUCH appreciated.
KIndest as ever,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
You're very welcome, Rosemary. I especially wanted to make sure these highlights made it into the thread as there is one quote in particular that I found extremely interesting. Did you notice the slip of the tongue (Freudian slip) made by Andrea Rossi? He makes a specific reference to his customer (the purchaser of the one megawatt unit) as "Colonel-Engineer"!??!@!! :o
I don't know very many "Colonel-Engineer" s except those in the military and since we already have the admission of the customer being from the U.S., it strongly suggests the customer is a branch of the U.S. Military ;)
As far as the trolls go; Just ask yourself, what would Batman be without the Joker? ;D
I also started another BRAND NEW poll so please vote on it when you get a chance.
Best regards,
Chess
Golly I missed that 'engineer-colonel' thing. You're right. But I think the most of us thought as much? Certainly I sort of hoped that's where it's gone.
And that new poll of yours Chess. It's great. But I'd rather prefer to vote yes on EVERY SINGLE proposal there. I ended up with the 3rd choice with the caveat that the trolls on our forums be made to be accountable as well. That would very nearly satisfy ALL my concerns. LOL
Take good care Chess, and THANKS AGAIN for all your hard work.
Kindest and best,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 04, 2012, 10:34:23 AM
Golly I missed that 'engineer-colonel' thing. You're right. But I think the most of us thought as much? Certainly I sort of hoped that's where it's gone.
And that new poll of yours Chess. It's great. But I'd rather prefer to vote yes on EVERY SINGLE proposal there. I ended up with the 3rd choice with the caveat that the trolls on our forums be made to be accountable as well. That would very nearly satisfy ALL my concerns. LOL
Take good care Chess, and THANKS AGAIN for all your hard work.
Kindest and best,
Rosie
@Rosemary:
I added an all of the above option on the new poll. I also reset the votes to give everybody a second chance to vote 8)
Warmest regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on February 04, 2012, 10:42:07 AM
@Rosemary:
I added an all of the above option on the new poll. I also reset the votes to give everybody a second chance to vote 8)
Warmest regards,
Chess
WELL. I've now cast my vote. Always a pleasure.
Kindest as ever,
Rosie
Quote from: chessnyt on February 04, 2012, 10:27:01 AM
He makes a specific reference to his customer (the purchaser of the one megawatt unit) as "Colonel-Engineer"!??!@!! :o
I don't know very many "Colonel-Engineer" s except those in the military and since we already have the admission of the customer being from the U.S., it strongly suggests the customer is a branch of the U.S. Military ;)
Not very likely Chess.
The most likely candidate for "Colonel-Engineer" in this area of research is
Col. Tom Bearden (retired).
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on February 04, 2012, 10:52:50 AM
Not very likely Chess.
The most likely candidate for "Colonel-Engineer" in this area of research is Col. Tom Bearden (retired).
.99
Col. Tom Bearden (retired) could not afford 1 unit let alone the 13 odd that's been ordered. You need to think again Poynty Point. As ever, you're hoping against hope that this will all come to nothing. A curious reach for an ardent supporter of over unity research. I'd have thought? Golly. If this goes on we'll all have to assume that you're rather determined to DENY ALL EVIDENCE. Not very scientific Poynty. Not a good thing AT ALL.
Regards,
Rosie Pose
By the way (BTW) :o Poynty Point. I've left you some rather personal messages on my thread. 8) You need to dip in there and answer some outstanding questions. Especially as they relate to your prize offer.
Quote from: poynt99 on February 04, 2012, 10:52:50 AM
Not very likely Chess.
The most likely candidate for "Colonel-Engineer" in this area of research is Col. Tom Bearden (retired).
.99
@.99
Wouldn't a retired Colonel be enjoying his FAT military pension and not be working for (an employee of) a cutomer of Rossi's?
"We shall see" said the Zen Master... :o
Keep clutching at straws so we can continue to be entertained ;D
Chess
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 04, 2012, 10:59:17 AM
Col. Tom Bearden (retired) could not afford 1 unit let alone the 13 odd that's been ordered. You need to think again Poynty Point. As ever, you're hoping against hope that this will all come to nothing. A curious reach for an ardent supporter of over unity research. I'd have thought? Golly. If this goes on we'll all have to assume that you're rather determined to DENY ALL EVIDENCE. Not very scientific Poynty. Not a good thing AT ALL.
Regards,
Rosie Pose
By the way (BTW) :o Poynty Point. I've left you some rather personal messages on my thread. 8) You need to dip in there and answer some outstanding questions. Especially as they relate to your prize offer.
@Rosemary:
It's amazing how many so called "legitimate" over unity researchers turn out to be propagandists, isn't it? My list of Jokers just keep on growing. And this is the best our enemies have to offer? The enemy is getting so screwed. They should have hired more lawyers of the best caliber. The current list of trolls simply won't do.
Next?
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on February 04, 2012, 11:28:11 AM
@Rosemary:
It's amazing how many so called "legitimate" over unity researchers turn out to be propagandists, isn't it? My list of Jokers just keep on growing. And this is the best our enemies have to offer? The enemy is getting so screwed. They should have hired more lawyers of the best caliber. The current list of trolls simply won't do.
Next?
Chess
LOL NEVER underestimate the 'enemy' Chess. It's the FIRST rule of insurgency warfare. These people LURK. The interesting thing is how it all becomes way too transparent when you see the tactics. You're right. They'll need to come in at a new angle. That would have the real merit of novelty. They're becoming rather stale.
Take care Chess. And WATCH YOUR BACK. :o 8)
Rosie
Hi chess, Rosie
This is old news story from 60 minutes about cold fusion but it is just more ammo against the trolls that don't believe in the truth. I feel sorry for those scientists that started all the cold fusion or lenr experiments and the way they were treated by the powers that be.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4967330n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox
Quote from: energy1234hope on February 05, 2012, 08:38:52 AM
Hi chess, Rosie
This is old news story from 60 minutes about cold fusion but it is just more ammo against the trolls that don't believe in the truth. I feel sorry for those scientists that started all the cold fusion or lenr experiments and the way they were treated by the powers that be.
Hope - it's all good news. And there's no question that it's upset the status quo. Thank God.
And take care, Hope. We're gaining ground here - slowly but surely. Who knows, the day may yet come that our trolls will need to argue science - instead of relying on all that heavy handed propaganda flaunted as higher knowledge. What a pleasure that will be.
Kindest as ever,
Rosie
Quote from: energy1234hope on February 05, 2012, 08:38:52 AM
Hi chess, Rosie
This is old news story from 60 minutes about cold fusion but it is just more ammo against the trolls that don't believe in the truth. I feel sorry for those scientists that started all the cold fusion or lenr experiments and the way they were treated by the powers that be.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4967330n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox (http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4967330n&tag=contentBody;storyMediaBox)
@energy1234hope:
I had seen this video some time ago and it is pretty convincing but can you imagine an updated version of this 60 Minutes episode with Andrea Rossi and his E-Cat at center stage?
@Everyone:
(highlights from Andrea Rossi's most recent interview on 1-15-2012 continued)
Sterling Allen: Ok. Moving to a different area, what is the status of the US patent application.
Andrea Rossi: The patent is still pending. We have our patent has been granted in Italy. So the process of authorization and study of the patent has been two years long in Italy. Then we had the patent granted. While the international and the US are still pending. Sterling Allen: Any prognosis of when those might be granted, if so?
Andrea Rossi: It is absolutely impossible because this is an issue that absolutely does not depend on us. Our patent attorney's are working on it. I cannot say anymore, because this is an issue that does not depend on us. That is it. Sterling Allen: I should comment that really the open source question is moot, because after a certain period of time, once the period of time is available, and you have acknowledge this, reverse engineering will take place. And your strategy it to make the device so cheap through advanced engineering and production technology that you will have an advantage in the market place you can maintain to be able to recoup the investment that has been made. And so once the reverse engineering takes place, another word for that will be open source. It will get out there, and others will begin working on it. And you are fully aware of that, and your solution to that is to provide a product that is so cheap and well engineered, that they cannot compete. Because you have the advantage of time.
Andrea Rossi: You are absolutely correct. Sterling Allen: Yeah. That will satisfy a lot of people. Speaking of the E-Cat sales, you are talking about one million units. It is not clear in my mind if you start production in the fall or if the units are available in the fall.
Andrea Rossi: We will start production in the fall. In the fall we will have ready all the engineering to start the production. And the sales will start in the winter. The production will be one million pieces per year. But from now to the fall, the work will be to prepare the factories. Enjoy,
Chess
Hi everyone.
Been lurking here for a while now, anxiously following the news on the e-cat. Good luck to Mr Rossi with that, and to all the other people in their overunity endeavours.
I wasnt quite sure where to post this, but hopefully it could be useful information. It could equally not be useful, but thought it might well be worth putting past a few minds on here. If you feel it is of some use, then feel free to cross post this link to any other areas of the forum that you think may benefit.
The link relates to the work of Maurice Cotterell. I dont know if any of you are familiar with any of his work, or in particular his latest piece ? I will say no more, and simply give you a very quick overview in his own words of what he is attempting to explain followed by a link to his site. and to a recent interview he gave.
Im sure that you can understand why this information might be useful if you find his conclusions worthy of further study.
overview for a theory of gravity ;
The Hydrogen atom and helium atom generate helically polarised electromagnetic radiation from polar regions, that bombards neighbouring atoms, drawing them towards the source of the radiation. Gravity radiation then causes the nucleus of the neighbouring atom to spin axially ( the motor effect), and at the same time synchronises the spin of the electrons in both atoms. The neighbouring atom in turn generates helically polarised electromagnetic energy ( the generator effect ). Both atoms spin axially in the same direction. Hence the Gravitational forces from both atoms pull in the same direction and the forces are additive. The gravitational constant G is shown to be the instantaneous alternating magnetic force between any two electron magnets in neighbouring atoms , and hence the gravitation force (F) is proportional to G x m x M ( where m and M represent the electron count of neighbouring atoms)
Link to quote followed by diagrammatic clarification ;
http://mauricecotterell.com/gravity1a.html
Secondly the interview ;
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrSuperpotatotomato#p/c/CFC5AD2718F6C853/0/8sUINeUETwM
Good luck to you all.
@Everyone:
This is the conclusion of the highlights from Andrea Rossi's January interview with Sterling Allen @pesn.com.
Enjoy,
Chess
Sterling Allen: Totally different question. I get inquiries from time to time about investment. I know there are people out there interested in investing in your company. What ranges of dollar amounts will you consider for investment? Anything above "X" dollars, for example.
Andrea Rossi: You know the issue is of a philosophic kind, because we are not yet... Our company before we will have millions of E-Cat units in operation, our company will be a sort of a warship. And as I usually say, I want not to play football with the bones of the others. So we cannot, we want not to accept money from people that have saved money working, and they want to invest their money to give, how can I say, safety to their family. We want not that. We do not want the savings of families in our enterprise now. Our enterprise is still risky, for many reasons. So we can accept investments from big organizations, that can invest a small amount... Some hedge funds of their finances, and can risk it, in a way that if something goes wrong, no body is going to cry. And no body is going to be damaged, really. Do you understand?
Sterling Allen: We have asked a lot of questions. This one question comes up a lot, and I think it is.. You have thousands of supporters who want to assist you in anyway they can. Could you maybe people an idea of some things they could do to help now, or maybe in the future? Give us a few bullet points of ways that people can help move this technology forward, and get involved, and when they could get involved.
Andrea Rossi: Well, we are walking deeply and profoundly to make the E-Cats at a very, very low price to allow people to pay back the E-Cat in a few months. The best help is to consider that getting an E-Cat, they save money for thirty years which is the expected life of an E-Cat. To pre-order an E-Cat is the thing that gives us a good way, is not risky, because it cost nothing. And when the E-Cats will be ready to be for sale, we will send to everybody who makes a pre-order a specific offer. And everybody will be free to cancel their order, or confirm it. And this is a good way to help us. And, do not send money, but just say, well, when the E-Cat will be out I will be ready to buy it. The price anyway will be between $400 and $500 dollars for a ten kilowatt system. This is a win-win proposal. And stay in touch with us, for now we have just to work.
Sterling Allen: Are you still taking inquiries for licensing?
Andrea Rossi: Yes. I am taking inquiries for licensing and....
Gary: And someone who is interested should they address you through your website? Is there some kind of a form they can fill out there?
Andrea Rossi: Yes, exactly. Just it is enough to send an email and anything. They can also send an email to Sterling Allan, to his website. Or to info@leonardocorp1996.com (info@leonardocorp1996.com) or yes to ecat.com.
Sterling Allen: My email address is sterlingda@pureenergysystems.com
Andrea Rossi: I really love you all, because you gave me the courage to go ahead. And that is all I have to say. I thank you very much. I feel your sustain and it is extremely important. Thank you very much for your attention.
Sterling Allen: In response I want to commend you for your courage and tenacity to do what few people, if any, have dared do. You are not afraid of what is quote and quote "impossible" or has never been done before. Or is seen as quote "ridiculous" by others. You are very unorthodox, and even though it may be difficult for people to understand you and to work with that kind of an operation, you are tireless. And you are courageous, and we salute you.
Andrea Rossi: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Thanks again Chessnyt for relaying this information. I think it's interesting how Rossi points out how risky his enterprise still is. I'd like to hear him elaborate on that in a future interview, whether he's talking more about dealing with opposition, technical challenges related to the devices themselves, or just the many difficulties involved with trying to set up any sort of large scale manufacturing process.
Even if you don't believe in suppression conspiracies, the amount of hurdles and obstacles that must be overcome to get a product like this to market add up to a form of suppression in themselves. All the deals and arrangements and organizing that has to take place. One example I was wondering about was the export/distribution issue. If these things are being made in the US, how much would it cost to send them all over the rest of the world, and what sort of import/export regulations or restrictions would apply? Is there even and import/export product category that a portable LENR generator would fit into?
Not trying to sound negative about it all, but it does make me think again how important it is for as many different people and groups as possible to try and make something of this technology. It would be good if there were some very simple small-scale proof of concept experiment/s people could do to at least verify the reactions are as they are claimed to be. Something that can be performed by any school or institution or individual who has the ability to do so safely. Just to help spread the awareness of the technology and make it common knowledge at a grass-roots level, totally unconnected to any of the various ways the knowledge can be commercialized.
Anyway, who knows how it will play out, and how long it will take before the human race stops burning stuff to release energy. We can just go on refining the methods and means of combustion, but in doing so we'll just go on acting like more refined and methodical Neanderthals. Fire, electricity, then...what they were leading to, and which, funnily enough, will allow us to gain a better understanding and appreciation of the former as well.
Sorry for polluting the thread with my ramblings, I guess I'm just venting my impatience with the whole process. Get the stuff out there already :)
Iwh,
I totally agree. This is too big to try to fit into the present monetary system.
This is free energy, changing the whole situation on earth.
Trying to keep such a breakthrough locked into the old economic system is utterly wrong.
By giving every single person on earth access to abundant free energy, there will be no need for any economic system whatsoever.
Things will quickly change into a decentralized society, were local knowledge will replace the big organizations that presently tap our freedom.
By doing it the old fashion way for personal gain, like Andrea Rossi, will only lead to a centralization of this new technology, making all of us again
dependent upon the big supplyers of energy. How would you guys feel if the big energy companies decided to take over the distribution of future
electricity produced by free energy devices like the AR Catalyzer?
Would you accept that? Paying for free energy?
Andrea Rossi is playing a high game. If he loses, we all lose. All but the guys already fat by controlling us as always.
We need a global change on this planet of a magnitude that once and for all gives us back our freedom.
Free energy for every single person is that very freedom. Anything else will be slavery, just like the present money slavery of the modern man.
OPEN SOURCE is the only alternative.
Gwandau
@Iwh:
First, let me start off by saying WOW! Very good stuff posted here by both you and Gwandau!
You are very welcome for the information that I have gratefully been able to post here. I personally believe with all my heart that knowledge is power and so I want each and every one of you to be extremely powerful because it is very difficult to enslave (or take advantage of) powerful people.
I've said this before but I'll say it once again because it deserves such emphasis. Freedom is a very expensive and dangerous thing to obtain and sustain. The very founders of the U.S. found this out and some had to pay with their very lives so that you and I could be free. I think about this all the time because I believe these great men deserve such respect as some never got the chance to enjoy the fruits of their own labor.
The fact of the matter is that this technology (or any that threatens the status quo) will make it extremely difficult (if not impossible) for the "powers that be" to maintain their stranglehold on the human race. The energy vendors were the first to create the largest monopolies ever known to the world which brought about the need for legislation such as The Sherman Act (the same piece of legislation that was later used to break up AT&T's monopoly).
The biggest energy vendors (the oil cartels) were permitted to re-merge back together again (under the Bush Jr. Administration) and not one media outlet even printed this fact as it was happening. It was all done very hush hush and under the radar. It led me to believe that the media is probably owned and thus controlled by these same elite entities.
It's very obvious to me that my country (the U.S.) has been highjacked by these very same people decades ago and they have been controlling things very nicely up until now.
Most people don't even know about the compressed air powered car made by Tata Motors in India. They make vehicles that are able to travel over 120 miles on a single charge of compressed air. A complete charge only costs $2.50 in electricity and is the equivalent to filling your current car with a full tank of gasoline minus $58.00 a pop.
These vehicles were fought by the oil cartels and were kept out of the U.S. market and they don't even run on any "exotic" technology. This was over a decade or so ago.
I hope Rossi does not suffer the same fate as Tata Motors did in the U.S. I'm hoping that this knowledge will spread like wildfire and thus an empowered world of people will come together to ensure that this time, freedom reigns.
Best regards,
Chess
Dear Chess and Gwandau, and indeed, all who post here,
That analysis you gave us is very sobering Gwandau. It's salutary to think how profoundly this energy is likely to impact on our current social structures. But what a pleasure. For once we're likely to see the cost of production DECREASE. It'll be the first time in many, many decades. Just calling a halt to that unstoppable destruction to any monetary values will give us some kind of stability again. One hopes so anyway. And I agree. The only way we can EVER hope to benefit from the E-cat is by somehow ensuring that the technology can be easily reverse engineered.
Frankly I rather hope that we can use various hydrides - which will, no doubt, be tested over time. But we can none of us lose sight of Andrea's contribution. He's cracked the code - somehow. Possibly in the 'preheating'. Can't comment because I just don't know enough about it. But I'm also inclined to suspect that this is absolutely just the first opening of that door. And it'll be exciting to see where our ingenuity takes us when we're freed from our wage slave conditions. And this technology is certainly the FIRST hope that's been offered.
What I enjoy about those transcripts that you give us Chess - is that one can hear the humanity in the guy. He's not a boaster. He's cautious and clearly troubled about the implications of all this. And yet he keeps up that required optimism. And so BRAVE. I'm absolutely IN LOVE. I have most certainly ordered my E-cat and so have my children. I'm yet to alert my neighbours - but they none of them have computers. Perhaps I can do that ordering for them? I'll give it a go. And my friends and collaborators have, I believe - all placed their orders. This is an important requirement guys. Because that way Rossi will know the scale that's needed - and he'll have a nice carrot to dangle for those franchised manufacturers.
And Chess, again. Many, many thanks for these tireless efforts. Interesting to see your focus from such an early period. My own involvement in all this was way too late in life. I LOVE THIS THREAD. It's where I come when I want some relief from sundry pressures.
Kindest and best,
Rosie
@Chessnyt . Regarding Tata motors . I find it very ironic , that in some areas of the UK , Ta ta is a slang expression meaning Goodbye !
I made an interesting calculation to answer the following question:
Assuming that the ecat will replace the natural gas heating in my house, will a COP of 6 be sufficient to be attractive?
In my country natural gas costs 0.6 euro / M3, while electricity is 0,25 euro / KWh
Each M3 of gas produces roughly 10 KWh of energy.
Since the ecat requires electrical input (to keep the core at an high enough temperature), 10KW of heat will require 1.67 KW of electrical energy.
My overall natural gas consumption per year is on average 1000 M3, which produces 10.000 KWh in total / year and costs 600 euro.
Using an ecat, this means that for 10.000 KWh 1667 KWh of electricity is consumed @ a COP of 6.
This additional 1667 KWh will cost me 416.75 euro in total.
I save 600 euro on gas, so my actual saving per year is 183,25 euro, keeping the costs of a NiH cartridge out of the calculation.
So, my conclusion is that in my personal situation this can not be called 'free energy' in the sense of costs. I will make me independent from my gas supplier though.
So, in fact there are two COP's:
COPenergy= 6
COPcost= 1.44
This means that the COPenergy needs to be much higher than 6, preferably self sustaining, to be really economical attractive for private households, at least in my country.
I am sure this is feasible, but it will require some more time and development.
@teslaalset
I'm sorry to inform you that your calculations are all wrong as far as the ecat using electricity. The electricity used by the ecat is only to get the reaction going inside the reactor and after that it is SELF SUSTAINING without the use of electricity.
No offence but please go back and read all you can about the ecat before posting such calculations.
Regards,
Paul
Hi teslaalset,
I think you're miscalculating. I understood that the electrical input is only required for initialising the that interaction. In effect it's the catalyst. But I'm open to correction.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: teslaalset on February 10, 2012, 10:13:18 AM
I made an interesting calculation to answer the following question:
Assuming that the ecat will replace the natural gas heating in my house, will a COP of 6 be sufficient to be attractive?
In my country natural gas costs 0.6 euro / M3, while electricity is 0,25 euro / KWh
Each M3 of gas produces roughly 10 KWh of energy.
Since the ecat requires electrical input (to keep the core at an high enough temperature), 10KW of heat will require 1.67 KW of electrical energy.
My overall natural gas consumption per year is on average 1000 M3, which produces 10.000 KWh in total / year and costs 600 euro.
Using an ecat, this means that for 10.000 KWh 1667 KWh of electricity is consumed @ a COP of 6.
This additional 1667 KWh will cost me 416.75 euro in total.
I save 600 euro on gas, so my actual saving per year is 183,25 euro, keeping the costs of a NiH cartridge out of the calculation.
So, my conclusion is that in my personal situation this can not be called 'free energy' in the sense of costs. I will make me independent from my gas supplier though.
So, in fact there are two COP's:
COPenergy= 6
COPcost= 1.44
This means that the COPenergy needs to be much higher than 6, preferably self sustaining, to be really economical attractive for private households, at least in my country.
I am sure this is feasible, but it will require some more time and development.
Just seen Goat's post. So. It seems this is correct. Which is yet more good news.
Best as ever,
Rosie
Quote from: Goat on February 10, 2012, 11:15:38 AM
@teslaalset
I'm sorry to inform you that your calculations are all wrong as far as the ecat using electricity. The electricity used by the ecat is only to get the reaction going inside the reactor and after that it is SELF SUSTAINING without the use of electricity.
No offence but please go back and read all you can about the ecat before posting such calculations.
Regards,
Paul
See http://ecat.com/energy-calculator (http://ecat.com/energy-calculator)
Also study http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Failure-of-Rossis-Energy-Catalyzer-Caught-on-Video.shtml (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Failure-of-Rossis-Energy-Catalyzer-Caught-on-Video.shtml) , where Rossi calculates COP for continuous operation.
teslaalset,
I believe there is really no need to plug into the grid to drive the e-cat.
As I have understood, Andrea Rossi has managed to control the heat production in the catalyzer in a very simple way,
namely by repeatedly triggering the system into LENR mode, and letting it cool off in between. This way the nickel powder
will stay OK and keep the e-cat going into LENR mode.
I don't think there is a known method today to harness LENR in a literally continous mode. Neither Andrea Rossi or anybody else
know enough about the nuclear reactions working behind the LENR phenomenon. This has to wait until the nuclear physicists get access
to one of the e-cats.
So if the control units of the e-cats are repeatedly triggering the reactor into LENR mode in short heat pulses, then it should be no problem
to use a serially connected unit of two e-cats to run a steam powered generator that will keep a powerful battery system like those of an
industrial truck lift charged with enough KwH to be able to run the heating sequences of themselves and two additional e-cats.
The energy needed for the continous repeated triggering into LENR mode is only around 17 percent of the generated energy, so it seems to me
quite feasable to turn the e-cats into self sustain mode and get off the grid.
The only reasons Andrea Rossi is incorporating the existing electricity grid into the e-cats is because it combines an attractive price with
a reliable energy source to the control unit. If the control unit fail the nickel powder in the reactor self destruct and ruin the e-cat.
Two e-cats produce 20 KW which is more than enough to make a steam powered engine drive a 12 or 24 volt truck generator, charging a battery system
with enough power to keep four e-cats running.
(When we talk about a minimum of 600 degrees needed to create electricity, we are talking about a continous generation of 110 or 220 Volt AC for direct
domestic use. As you understand, this is not what I am talking about.)
I really can't see why this would not function, but I am open for any wellfounded objections to this idea.
The ball is rolling...
Gwandau
Dear Rosemary Ainslie and Chessnyt,
your positive energy really saturates this thread and makes it a pleasure to visit.
You both belong to those that have made the choice to call the glass of water for half full instead of half empty.
The difference may seem minor but is paramount when it comes to the delicate introduction of new grounds and paradigms.
I personally believe there is some value in the ideas of the British biochemist Robert Sheldrake, who has devoted his entire career
into the exploration of a new science he calls "Morpho-Genesis".
He has found through statistical research that any new innovation takes a certain time to gain momentum in its function.
For example, a never before done chemical experiment is performing very different results in the beginning, but the more times the experiment
is performed, and the more people that has witnessed it, the more stable the chemical reaction becomes.
This is totally opposing the conventional view of our universe being rock solid in its dependence on never changing scientific fundamental laws.
But maybe there is more than meets the eye, maybe our universe is not as physical as we think.
The glass of water is not yet full.
But half full is a lot.
Gwandau
First i have to admit that i've been always impressed through a complete lack of simple knowledge by any discussion, by any counterparts.
2-nd, "Teslaalset" is wrong with gas power and thus heat unit price from it.
The mentioned 10-11 kWh power is only potential energy of chemical bounds in gas.
The maximum You can draw from it 30% maximum is by the best conditions, in practice it lies between 2.3-2.7 kWh of heat.
So price for real unit (1 kWh) of heat from gas rises 3.3 to >4 times, trust me folks.
It is always easy to prove in home with cheap <50 cent experiment cost conditions.
3-rd, nobody needs to drive e-Cat 24/24 on 0.25 EUR electricity, but 10/24 run only.
As stated "LancaIV" here: http://overunity.com/10213/drj200-100-cnf-reactor-for-home-use/80/ it costs 0.12 EUR (mit Mwst Herr Lanca?).
So it drops instantly 2x low.
In this summary You have difference cost 8:1 in favor of e-Cat.
Only what You need is, to use sufficient water tanks volume as by simple heaters or heat pumps.
4-th, by only 10/24 H e-Cat run it produces 100 kWh of heat (when dates true supposed are).
By new Euronorm Heat Norm 30 kWh/sqm/year in EU it means that by constant
(-)15 winter conditions 100 kWh is enough for >800 sqm/day to heat.
By old brick houses with no insulation (110-120 kWh/sqm yearly) it is for 200 sqm good.
5-th, for proper control of process the Rossi device needs under constant or with small short pauses to be driven only.
Otherwise it is not possible to have it propperly under control.
(I had first it on my mind as my first "nuclear" device >40 y. ago, but all family laughed this as bomb simply).
6-th, it is nothing of CNF, ordinary chemical reaction only.
I will be not teaching such simple definitions which should be known even for semi serious people only.
:-\
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 10, 2012, 02:36:26 AM
What I enjoy about those transcripts that you give us Chess - is that one can hear the humanity in the guy. He's not a boaster. He's cautious and clearly troubled about the implications of all this. And yet he keeps up that required optimism. And so BRAVE. I'm absolutely IN LOVE. I have most certainly ordered my E-cat and so have my children. I'm yet to alert my neighbours - but they none of them have computers. Perhaps I can do that ordering for them? I'll give it a go. And my friends and collaborators have, I believe - all placed their orders. This is an important requirement guys. Because that way Rossi will know the scale that's needed - and he'll have a nice carrot to dangle for those franchised manufacturers.
And Chess, again. Many, many thanks for these tireless efforts. Interesting to see your focus from such an early period. My own involvement in all this was way too late in life. I LOVE THIS THREAD. It's where I come when I want some relief from sundry pressures.
Kindest and best,
Rosie
@Rosemary:
I have to agree with you on your statement regarding Rossi's humanity. Yes, his character shines through as he humbly makes the time to do lengthy interviews with a tiny media outlet such as PESN.com despite putting in 16 hours a day on his business enterprize. I mean no disrespect but they (PESN)are not exactly the equivalent (in audience or resources) to ABC or CNN by any stretch.
Then there are some here who have pointed out that Rossi is in this to make a profit and he should instead be making this an open source technology. To these I must say; this is true. He is definitely looking to make a profit, however, if Rossi had no other motives than to make lots of money, he could have easily sold out to the oil cartels a long time ago without having to put up one cent of his own money.
He wouldn't even have to be concerned about who will be contracted to design the controls or where he can set up manufacturing plants to mass produce the E-Cats. Surely, if Rossi were in this for the money alone, he would have joined the likes of Steve Ryan and simply sold out and said the hell with all of the hard work and red tape (and having to sell his own home). I always keep in mind that Stanley Meyer was even offered over $1 billion dollars cash by the Arabs alone just to sit on his technology and do nothing with it.
I'm with you about wanting the technology to become an open source effort but at least we have hope of ever having access to this breakthrough science as opposed to having it buried by the greedy energy vendors who could only salivate over the thought of having it permanently shelved.
These are just some of my thoughts concerning Rossi's humanity. I also understand why you are "in love", Rosemary. He is certainly very brave, noble and persevering ;) I'm so jealous :P
I am very delighted to hear that you find solace here and the feeling is mutual. Thank you for the nice compliments.
Warmest regards,
Chess
Quote from: Gwandau on February 10, 2012, 03:16:52 PM
teslaalset,
I believe there is really no need to plug into the grid to drive the e-cat.
As I have understood, Andrea Rossi has managed to control the heat production in the catalyzer in a very simple way,
namely by repeatedly triggering the system into LENR mode, and letting it cool off in between. This way the nickel powder
will stay OK and keep the e-cat going into LENR mode.
I don't think there is a known method today to harness LENR in a literally continous mode. Neither Andrea Rossi or anybody else
know enough about the nuclear reactions working behind the LENR phenomenon. This has to wait until the nuclear physicists get access
to one of the e-cats.
So if the control units of the e-cats are repeatedly triggering the reactor into LENR mode in short heat pulses, then it should be no problem
to use a serially connected unit of two e-cats to run a steam powered generator that will keep a powerful battery system like those of an
industrial truck lift charged with enough KwH to be able to run the heating sequences of themselves and two additional e-cats.
The energy needed for the continous repeated triggering into LENR mode is only around 17 percent of the generated energy, so it seems to me
quite feasable to turn the e-cats into self sustain mode and get off the grid.
The only reasons Andrea Rossi is incorporating the existing electricity grid into the e-cats is because it combines an attractive price with
a reliable energy source to the control unit. If the control unit fail the nickel powder in the reactor self destruct and ruin the e-cat.
Two e-cats produce 20 KW which is more than enough to make a steam powered engine drive a 12 or 24 volt truck generator, charging a battery system
with enough power to keep four e-cats running.
(When we talk about a minimum of 600 degrees needed to create electricity, we are talking about a continous generation of 110 or 220 Volt AC for direct
domestic use. As you understand, this is not what I am talking about.)
I really can't see why this would not function, but I am open for any wellfounded objections to this idea.
The ball is rolling...
Gwandau
@Gwandau,
We have to separate facts and fiction.
As I have indicated earlier, I believe all the methods (and others) you mention to increase COP are possible
over time, but with the present e-cat, the one that Rossi announced, COP is < 10 in continuous mode in my opinion.
If he's controlling the e-cats in his present implementation in self sustaining mode or 'pulsed mode' the guaranteed COP would be much higher.
But let's see what will be delivered.
I've pre-ordered 4 units a while ago, so who knows, maybe by the end of this year we know more.
Quote from: teslaalset on February 11, 2012, 02:45:12 AM
@Gwandau,
We have to separate facts and fiction.
As I have indicated earlier, I believe all the methods (and others) you mention to increase COP are possible over time, but with the present e-cat, the one that Rossi announced, COP is < 10 in continuous mode in my opinion.
If he's controlling the e-cats in his present implementation in self sustaining mode or 'pulsed mode' the guaranteed COP would be much higher.
But let's see what will be delivered.
I've pre-ordered 4 units a while ago, so who knows, maybe by the end of this year we know more.
@teslaalset,
no fiction here.
A 10KW e-cat will convert 7 liters of water into 120 degrees Celsius of steam in one single hour - according to Andrea Rossi this is no fiction.
As I earlier mentioned, this is enough steam power to make a simple steam powered engine drive a 2KW truck generator thus keeping a set of truck lift batteries charged.
Now, According to AR the energy needed to heat the e-cat into functional mode is 17 percent of 10KW, which is 1,7 KW.
So tapping the 1,7 KW from the e-cat for powering the control unit seems quite feasable.
Are you with me, or is this fiction for you?
I did myself pre-order 4 e-cats early this year, which when delivered will be put to tests like this.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on February 11, 2012, 02:50:16 PM
@teslaalset,
no fiction here.
A 10KW e-cat will convert 7 liters of water into 120 degrees Celsius of steam in one single hour - according to Andrea Rossi this is no fiction.
As I earlier mentioned, this is enough steam power to make a simple steam powered engine drive a 2KW truck generator thus keeping a set of truck lift batteries charged.
Now, According to AR the energy needed to heat the e-cat into functional mode is 17 percent of 10KW, which is 1,7 KW.
The numbers are correct, but your assumption this is only required to crank up the process are not confirmed by Rossi.
Maybe you can point me to a link to a quote from Rossi himself where he states this. If you have no such reference, this is only your interpretation against mine. Why would Rossi mention a COP of 6 if there is only 1.7 KWh required for startup if the process after startup can be run for 180 day continuously without additional electricity input? The total heat potential of the NiH cartridge is 45000 KWh.
B.t.w. 10/1.7 = roughly 6.
COP calculation for only the startup is useless and incorrect because the 10 KW heat will only produced right after the startup, so during startup the COP will vary from zero to roughly 6.
Quote
So tapping the 1,7 KW from the e-cat for powering the control unit seems quite feasable.
Are you with me, or is this fiction for you?
Rossi mentioned in almost all his open interviews that electricity generation is not included in present ecats.
If you want 1.7 KW from 10KW, you will need a stirling generator. Solid state conversion from heat to electricity can only be done by using Peltier/Seebeck elements. Those have an efficiency of max 5%, which is insufficient for the numbers you mentioned.
Can I humbly remind you that methods of converting heat to electricity have a low efficiency . This means that much of the energy that you tried to convert , is wasted as heat . However , this waste heat is not wasted if you make use of it . So you just operate the conversion inside a building , and you get a small amount of electricity and heat the building at the same time . A combined heat and power system . It only becomes a problem in hot weather .
THE ROSSI COP SAGA
Rossi changed the design of the e-cat between his last demonstration
before and the 1MW demonstration in last part of October.
Before October he used the input electrical energy to guarantee
that the reaction would not continue i.e. it would die out if the
input energy was terminated. - A fail safe method. The exact COP
between this input energy and output heat energy was a matter
of his design and was not fixed to any particular value. But the
value was important to those trying to decide how it worked and
if it worked.
Rossi apparently knew his stuff (be it real or fake) because in the
middle of this development cycle he changed his design so that input
energy was only required to start the reaction. And other stuff
(like this RF oscillator thingy) would be use to propagate the
reaction. Very little electrical power would be used in this
oscillator. So Measured COP integrated over a long time could
then become extremely large. So large as to exclude Chemical
Mechanical storage etc.
I liked none of it. He changed his design in midstream so that something
that was fairly important before became unimportant. And something
like "stopping the reaction" at will, became problematic.
These where poor choices for me, and for others studying the reaction
but not for him. With power gain it was almost impossible for the
reaction to continue unwanted. Now we could only believe *what he
said* about the stability of shutdown. Just like believing *what he said*
about nearly everything else concerning the e-cat reaction.
So why didn't COP concerns go away?
Rossi brought these back himself because of his ever so short experimental
demonstration test times. Rather then let the test run for a while and
the COP build up to become unimportantly large. He cut the test off
where the total COP was still in the reasonable range when compared to
the integrated startup time energy! So now people started comparing
these two again!
Rossi never really showed unequivocally large COP at any time
when he should have been able to do that at any time given that
he had something that worked.
Rossi demonstrations are fortunately over. All we have to do
now is keep others like Defkalion from repeating this same
unacceptable cr*p simply because we accepted it from Rossi.
Rossi has now moved on proof based in production and sales
...and so the proof saga continues.
:S:MarkSCoffman
Hello S. Mark Coffman,
How interesting that you should be around to debunk Rossi's evidence. I fondly recall your efforts in this regard related to a circuit that I'm rather more familiar with. I seem to recall your promotion of your interests in the light of a potential investor? Is that your interest here? In which case I wouldn't bother. I'm satisfied that Rossi has all the investment he needs to take this technology further. With added benefit, I might add, from significant and real investment interests and funding. So I'm not sure that he'll be unduly concerned if you prefer to withhold the promise of this. And, with or without respect, it is my considered opinion his technology would be best served without any involvement from you - at all. 8)
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMTHE ROSSI COP SAGARossi changed the design of the e-cat between his last demonstration before and the 1MW demonstration in last part of October.
A circuit variation has never discounted proof of anything at all. Merely what it is. A variation. Thank God for this. What would we all have done without some variation to Faraday's applications compared to Tesla's promotion of AC supplies? For instance?
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMBefore October he used the input electrical energy to guarantee that the reaction would not continue i.e. it would die out if the input energy was terminated. - A fail safe method. The exact COP between this input energy and output heat energy was a matter of his design and was not fixed to any particular value. But the value was important to those trying to decide how it worked and if it worked.
Nope. There's absolutely no logical sequence or sense to anything you've written here. :o I've given it my best shot. It lacks clarity - sense - and reason. On the whole it reads like a shoddy piece of propagandising - rendered ineffective as it leaves the reader confused. You need to do better.
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMRossi apparently knew his stuff (be it real or fake) because in the middle of this development cycle he changed his design so that input energy was only required to start the reaction. And other stuff (like this RF oscillator thingy) would be use to propagate the reaction. Very little electrical power would be used in this oscillator. So. Measured COP integrated over a long time could then become extremely large. So large as to exclude Chemical Mechanical storage etc.
More of the same. Just a confused mishmash of illogical nonsense. No idea what you're referring to. No idea what your complaint is. No idea what you're on about. Try using sense when you use the English language. It's meant to be a tool to advance understanding. Not to diminish it.
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMI liked none of it. He changed his design in midstream so that something that was fairly important before became unimportant. And something like "stopping the reaction" at will, became problematic. These where poor choices for me, and for others studying the reaction but not for him. With power gain it was almost impossible for thereaction to continue unwanted. Now we could only believe *what he said* about the stability of shutdown. Just like believing *what he said* about nearly everything else concerning the e-cat reaction.
And yet more strange allusions to bad explanations that have no intrinsic sense. Except for one thing - which, conversely - I do approve of. Which is that you 'liked none of it'. Else I'd certainly be less inclined to 'like it' as much as I do. In the same way that I'd like Democracy all the more - in the face of Idi Amin. Or I'd like science all the more - in the face of the Spanish Inquisition.
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMSo why didn't COP concerns go away?
You ask? I'm not sure that coefficient of performance ever 'goes away'. It's a REQUIRED benchmark. Can you think of an alternate measurement parameter? I'm reasonably sure that the entire scientific community relate to COP as this is the most significant concern related to any energy efficiency evaluations. You need to brush up on science S. Mark Coffman. It's an interesting study.
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMRossi brought these back himself because of his ever so short experimental demonstration test times. Rather then let the test run for a while and the COP build up to become unimportantly large. He cut the test off where the total COP was still in the reasonable range when compared to the integrated startup time energy! So now people started comparing these two again!
Golly. What we're witnessing here is the brutal annihilation of all good sense. Rossi did not himself 'bring back' considerations of COP. Without this there would be NOTHING to consider. And what in heaven's name is 'integrated startup time energy'? Or are you lapsing into these pretentious terms in the hopes of pretending to understand anything at all?
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMRossi never really showed unequivocally large COP at any time when he should have been able to do that at any time given that he had something that worked. Rossi demonstrations are fortunately over. All we have to do now is keep others like Defkalion from repeating this same unacceptable cr*p simply because we accepted it from Rossi.
Lol. FINALLY - I've seen the comic value of your protests. If this is the measure of the prejudice that we're dealing with - then Rossi has no real problems ahead. Thank you God. If Rossi's demonstrations are 'OVER' as you put it - it's because the technology is NOW going into production. Wake up Mr Coffman. Or not. Actually ignore my advice. Better you keep on those blinkers. Stay as far away as you possibly can from this technology. Better that you simply continue with these extraordinary protests. They're richly amusing.
Quote from: mscoffman on February 11, 2012, 04:23:53 PMRossi has now moved on proof based in production and sales ...and so the proof saga continues.
He has indeed. LOL. Again. Thank you God.
Regards,
A Rosemary A. Ainslie
ESQUIRESS. ;D
7-th:
You should really to start learning math (as bankers only do good).
"A 10KW e-cat will convert 7 liters of water into 120 degrees Celsius of steam in
one single hour - according to Andrea Rossi this is no fiction."
This is only 0.9 kWh of heat power- this is no fiction too.
7 L x 110 (dT) x 4.200=3.234.000 : 3.600.000=0.898333 kWh
(i think i don't need to clear what dT, 4.200, 3.600.000 values are, em i right folks?)
So when we compare 0.9:1.7 it is 53% effectivity only.
Whats more, it needs working 11 hours to achieve 10 kW of heat power,
by 24/24 run it is 24 kWh only.
Our devices make 16-28/1 H.
So even for new standard 30 kWh home, You will heat only 200 sqm.
By old brick houses it is only 50 sqm to heat daily.
So You need min. 3 such devices for winter conditions, and by this 50-55% effectivity it is better with gas further to heat.
And this is why our DRJ.200 costs now 12-14.000 EUR.
ALL CLEAR GEANTELMEN?
Dr. Adolf Nowak
NSPAP
http://nspap.livejournal.com
Concerning low efficiency of transformation of heat in electricity please check nitinol engines.
@Rosemary:
It's an old strategy reintroduced for a second time. I noticed this earlier in the thread and it was originally used on Andrea Rossi himself. This is an old lawyer's trick where you make a demand from the opposing counsel to turn over an ungodly amount of data, evidence or specific records. It's really a stall tactic usually employed in the discovery phase of a trial in which the side demanding the documentation has no actual interest in the documents requested. They do this in order to bog down the opposing counsel and use their noncompliance to the request as valid grounds to postpone (or be granted a continuance) a trial.
But Rossi was much smarter than they originally thought as he saw right through this transparent ploy. This is why Rossi only verifies the 1 MW units with the actual customers and not the media or demanding outside scientists anymore. He realizes that they will NEVER be satisfied no matter what he does because they are not genuinely looking for the answers. They just want him to be so busy jumping through their hoops that he does not have time left over to further his enterprises and thus never puts out a product.
My stance to this ingenious part of the crowd is for them to just purchase one of Rossi's units when they become publically available and test them for only 94 years. Then stop the testing and get back to me. I really am interested in seeing their results after 94 years of their own independent study of Rossi's work just to make sure. Meanwhile, I'll just be using Rossi's E-Cats in my office and my residence with my sights set on using this technology to power a motor vehicle. I'll have the motor vehicle waiting for them to study upon completion of their original study. They can take even longer to study the vehicle if they would prefer.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on February 13, 2012, 01:03:07 AM
But Rossi was much smarter than they originally thought as he saw right through this transparent ploy. This is why Rossi only verifies the 1 MW units with the actual customers and not the media or demanding outside scientists anymore. He realizes that they will NEVER be satisfied no matter what he does because they are not genuinely looking for the answers. They just want him to be so busy jumping through their hoops that he does not have time left over to further his enterprises and thus never puts out a product.
Rossi also has a degree in psychology, so he doesn't follow the expected paths to introduce this breakthrough.
It's pretty rare that somebody has a degree in technology and psychology.
Another example: Mark Zuckerberg (degree in IT and psychology).
Quote from: Doctor No on February 10, 2012, 07:31:02 PM
...
6-th, it is nothing of CNF, ordinary chemical reaction only.
...
Hi Doctor No,
I’m not sure I understand you correctly. Please be more specific.
Many thanks,
Tinu
Quote from: Goat on February 10, 2012, 11:15:38 AM
@teslaalset
I'm sorry to inform you that your calculations are all wrong as far as the ecat using electricity. The electricity used by the ecat is only to get the reaction going inside the reactor and after that it is SELF SUSTAINING without the use of electricity.
No offence but please go back and read all you can about the ecat before posting such calculations.
Regards,
Paul
@teslaalset
I'm sorry all to hell for my comments on your calculations, what can I say, after reading your reply post I went and further educated myself with the links you posted and I was totally wrong in my presumptuous remarks, once again please forgive me :P
Regards,
Paul
Quote from: chessnyt on February 13, 2012, 01:03:07 AM
@Rosemary:
It's an old strategy reintroduced for a second time. I noticed this earlier in the thread and it was originally used on Andrea Rossi himself. This is an old lawyer's trick where you make a demand from the opposing counsel to turn over an ungodly amount of data, evidence or specific records. It's really a stall tactic usually employed in the discovery phase of a trial in which the side demanding the documentation has no actual interest in the documents requested. They do this in order to bog down the opposing counsel and use their noncompliance to the request as valid grounds to postpone (or be granted a continuance) a trial.
But Rossi was much smarter than they originally thought as he saw right through this transparent ploy. This is why Rossi only verifies the 1 MW units with the actual customers and not the media or demanding outside scientists anymore. He realizes that they will NEVER be satisfied no matter what he does because they are not genuinely looking for the answers. They just want him to be so busy jumping through their hoops that he does not have time left over to further his enterprises and thus never puts out a product.
My stance to this ingenious part of the crowd is for them to just purchase one of Rossi's units when they become publically available and test them for only 94 years. Then stop the testing and get back to me. I really am interested in seeing their results after 94 years of their own independent study of Rossi's work just to make sure. Meanwhile, I'll just be using Rossi's E-Cats in my office and my residence with my sights set on using this technology to power a motor vehicle. I'll have the motor vehicle waiting for them to study upon completion of their original study. They can take even longer to study the vehicle if they would prefer.
Best regards,
Chess
This is choice Chess. Especially that last para. I've finally found cause to laugh.
Kindest as always,
Rosie
Quote from: Goat on February 13, 2012, 10:08:44 PM
@teslaalset
I'm sorry all to hell for my comments on your calculations, what can I say, after reading your reply post I went and further educated myself with the links you posted and I was totally wrong in my presumptuous remarks, once again please forgive me :P
Regards,
Paul
No problem Paul, it's free to exchange opinions here ;)
I expressed my view on 'self sustaining' operation also here: http://www.overunity.com/12008/lenr-roundup/msg312708/#new (http://www.overunity.com/12008/lenr-roundup/msg312708/#new)
It's just my view, people may disagree of course.
The point I am trying to make is that Rossi's numbers need to be interpreted carefully.
I am looking into Rossi's proove of COP by his calculations a bit more.
There are some weak points in the semi open demo's he performed in 2011 which I am trying to understand.
One thing that is still bugging me is the demo (Bologna on June 14, 2011) where Rossi shows steam production where he stated the water usages is 7 liter/hour, while the shown steam generation is only very mild.
If you calculate what the actual speed of steam flow should be in such case, with the diameter of the hose he used in mind, something is clearly not correct. In that demo the steam should come out of the hose with much more violance.
It's just one demo, I know, but there are no other demo results that we can study.
Hopefully, some more formal evaluations will be published.
Rossi is presently working with two universities to get this done.
In parallel Defkalion is having the Hyperion evaluatied more openly by several knowledgable institutes.
I guess we need to be patient for a few weeks;)
@Everyone:
For those who predicted that Andrea Rossi was indeed in for some real and close competition; it looks to be in the works.
Here is a quote from PESN.com:
"Defkalion's 5-45 kilowatt modular heat reactor is not yet a product you can go out and purchase, but it is getting close to the market. It will provide competitively-priced thermal energy, but with very low fuel costs for the nickel and hydrogen used in the reaction chambers that will last for six months of continuous output without refuelling.
In the coming few weeks, they will be having at least seven different groups come in to test their device, beginning with the Greek government next week. The results from each group will be published. Each group will have 48 hours to test the device and a control to which they can compare it.
They showed me the experimental set-up -- running, producing heat. It includes a control chamber and an active reaction chamber. After the two are run simultaneously -- one with the low energy nuclear reaction (aka cold fusion), and one without -- showing that the low energy nuclear reaction (LENR) system produces at least 20 times more heat; they will then switch the reaction chambers, removing the nickel and hydrogen from one (cleaning it out to make sure there are no residual elements), and adding these ingredients to the other chamber, which previously was the 'control' or 'blank' chamber; to prove that the data remain the same. They will also show that some gamma radiation comes from the reaction chamber of the LENR system, as evidence that a low level nuclear reaction of some kind is indeed taking place (though not on a dangerous level to those operating the test). The final product will be fully shielded to prevent emission of stray radiation."
The full story can be found at the following link:
http://pesn.com/2012/02/13/9602039_Hope_from_Athens_found_in_Cold_Fusion/ (http://pesn.com/2012/02/13/9602039_Hope_from_Athens_found_in_Cold_Fusion/)
Notice who Defkalion is allowing to test and validate their product. Very interesting move for them IF they follow through with their latest claims.
Regards,
Chess
Hello Chess,
Very interesting indeed. Nice to see that Rossi's got competition - but I'm not altogether sure that I like the competition. That bit about 'self-destructing' - is somewhat OTT. I'll leave my order with Rossi - is my choice. We need as many competitors as possible. But some radical variation to the choice of hydrides would be way more preferable - is my take. Our only long term security to be shot of monopolists is to be able to do this ourselves. That way - we can buy from whoever. But if the strangleholds start setting in - then - blow them. We'll be able to build our own. Only then will we be entirely protected. So I see open sourcing and separate testing as highly desirable. Good reason for forums and threads to continue.
I'm not sure that I like Sterling's change of loyalty either. It's rather brutal. If Rossi's a bit prickly - then God knows. He had a high mountain to climb. I'm sure I don't give two hoots if he's not a 'people's person'. LOL. I know a little about this. I'm definitely in the 'grumpy' age and class. And I'm not sure that popularity matters too much. Unless of course, you're a film star. ::) Or a politician. 8)
Thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to hearing more about that SA number. Another interesting development. Golly. Is there no upper limit to all this good news? What a DELICIOUS complaint.
Kindest and best, as ever
Rosemary
While Mark is a phenominal debator,. its very rare that i find me and him seeing eye to eye on most issues..
But i have to agree with him here, he makes a very valid point....
Why does the energy equivalency of this system seem to persist, regardless of the arrangement?
to put it quite simply, ... regardless of energy input, or output of the system, the mass to energy equivalency of the internal system, is conserved.
YES, this type of system allows us to perform reactions, at energy levels much lower than those used in other types of systems.. However, this equivalency remains unchanged. You can analyze this system from either perspective, with the square of c, or the square of T, and there will always be a proportional ratio between energy and mass. (ths is because of the relativity between the speed of light and "time" )
The bottom line is, altering either the input, or the output of the system, alters the relative reaction rate of the internal system. Thus making this system, completely "conservative", meaning it does not violate any laws of physics.
As far as the C.O.P. is concerned,.. This value is always going to be obscured by an external analysis, and until the scientists involved fully understand the processes they are toying around with, there will always be a line in the sand, between those who 'observe' anomalous C.O.P. values, and those who are ingenuitive enough to resolve them from a 'Black-Box' analysis.
The fact of the matter remains unchanged.. It is halfway through Feb. and we still see no "game changer"
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2012, 12:04:35 PM
While Mark is a phenominal debator,. its very rare that i find me and him seeing eye to eye on most issues..
But i have to agree with him here, he makes a very valid point....
Why does the energy equivalency of this system seem to persist, regardless of the arrangement?
to put it quite simply, ... regardless of energy input, or output of the system, the mass to energy equivalency of the internal system, is conserved.
YES, this type of system allows us to perform reactions, at energy levels much lower than those used in other types of systems.. However, this equivalency remains unchanged. You can analyze this system from either perspective, with the square of c, or the square of T, and there will always be a proportional ratio between energy and mass. (ths is because of the relativity between the speed of light and "time" )
The bottom line is, altering either the input, or the output of the system, alters the relative reaction rate of the internal system. Thus making this system, completely "conservative", meaning it does not violate any laws of physics.
As far as the C.O.P. is concerned,.. This value is always going to be obscured by an external analysis, and until the scientists involved fully understand the processes they are toying around with, there will always be a line in the sand, between those who 'observe' anomalous C.O.P. values, and those who are ingenuitive enough to resolve them from a 'Black-Box' analysis.
The fact of the matter remains unchanged.. It is halfway through Feb. and we still see no "game changer"
The total energy of a system is conserved, but mass is not. Conservation of energy applies to systems, not to individual bodies. For a detailed explanation, please see this post (reply #132) (http://www.overunity.com/10039/ground-breaking-work-of-frank-znidarsic-cold-fusion-anti-gravity-explained/msg312690/#msg312690) in reference to Frank Wilczek's book, titled "The Lightness of Being: Mass, Ether, and Unification of the Forces".
Please, no comments on this until you have actually read the post.
Thanks,
Gravock
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2012, 12:04:35 PM
But i have to agree with him here, he makes a very valid point....Why does the energy equivalency of this system seem to persist, regardless of the arrangement? to put it quite simply, ... regardless of energy input, or output of the system, the mass to energy equivalency of the internal system, is conserved.
WHAT are you saying Smoky? WHERE is there a conservation of the mass to energy - thingy? If there was the required conservation then there would be absolutely no way Rossi could manage a COP>6. Which is the nominal guaranteed return. It is PRECISELY because there's no apparent conservation that this result is attributed to a nuclear interaction.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2012, 12:04:35 PMYES, this type of system allows us to perform reactions, at energy levels much lower than those used in other types of systems.. However, this equivalency remains unchanged. You can analyze this system from either perspective, with the square of c, or the square of T, and there will always be a proportional ratio between energy and mass. (ths is because of the relativity between the speed of light and "time" )
The relationship between energy and mass is absolutely NOT applicable to nuclear reactions. Which is precisely why this result is attributed to a nuclear interaction. At the nuclear level there is ONLY the conservation of charge. The outstanding question relates to the fact that the known nuclear interactions result in gamma ray emissions. They're toxic. In this LENR - for reasons that are NOT explicable - there are no TOXIC emissions at all. But our standard paradigms are not yet developed to explain this. Not conclusively. There have been proposals - but nothing yet definitive.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2012, 12:04:35 PMThe bottom line is, altering either the input, or the output of the system, alters the relative reaction rate of the internal system. Thus making this system, completely "conservative", meaning it does not violate any laws of physics.
Actually no. Not at all. This system is NOT conservative - in the sense that you're applying it. There are some really weighty intellects that are trying to explain this. But there has been no definitive resolution. Apparently Rossi will publish his own thesis on this when his patent is finally granted.
But Smokey - disabuse yourself of any thoughts that there's anything standard in this LENR or Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. It's NOT standard. Until Rossi showed its potential in purely pragmatic terms - then the entire field of study has been rather outlawed by our academics. There is no classical nor quantum resolution of the results that the E-cat give us.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2012, 12:04:35 PMAs far as the C.O.P. is concerned,.. This value is always going to be obscured by an external analysis, and until the scientists involved fully understand the processes they are toying around with, there will always be a line in the sand, between those who 'observe' anomalous C.O.P. values, and those who are ingenuitive enough to resolve them from a 'Black-Box' analysis.
I like your term 'ingenuitive'. It's a composite of ingenious and intuitive. Very nice. But there's no 'line in the sand' - here. And those COP values are not, as yet, resolved.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2012, 12:04:35 PMThe fact of the matter remains unchanged.. It is halfway through Feb. and we still see no "game changer"
Actually no. Again. We're not only seeing Rossi's technology moving to production - aimed for November of this year - but we're also seeing some rather robust competition from Greece - aimed at a launch I believe even sooner. The 'game changer' is most certainly here. It's not even OPEN for debate. And no matter how skilled you propose that S Mark Coffman is - in this art - it won't change this reality. Many millions, have already been invested in this production. No further need for proof of concept. It's IN THE BAG. Which is a really good thing for us all. I'm sure you appreciate this.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: gravityblock on February 15, 2012, 07:11:17 PM
The total energy of a system is conserved, but mass is not. Conservation of energy applies to systems, not to individual bodies. For a detailed explanation, please see this post (reply #132) (http://www.overunity.com/10039/ground-breaking-work-of-frank-znidarsic-cold-fusion-anti-gravity-explained/msg312690/#msg312690) in reference to Frank Wilczek's book, titled "The Lightness of Being: Mass, Ether, and Unification of the Forces".
Please, no comments on this until you have actually read the post.
Thanks,
Gravock
Gravock, with the utmost respect, I would propose that not even Frank Wilczek has resolved LENR. If you yourself have managed this - then I think we'd all be very interested in seeing your proposals.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 15, 2012, 08:52:59 PM
Gravock, with the utmost respect, I would propose that not even Frank Wilczek has resolved LENR. If you yourself have managed this - then I think we'd all be very interested in seeing your proposals.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Where did I ever claim that Frank Wilczek has resolved LENR? I never did! In addition to this, you never read the post which I referenced. If you did, then you didn't understand it. The post I referenced has nothing to do with Frank Wilczek being able to resolve LENR, but has everything to do with how to
correctly apply and understand the mass-energy equation. I will repeat and make it in bold.
The total energy of a system is conserved, but mass is not. Conservation of energy applies to systems, not to individual bodies. Conservation of energy does not apply to individual bodies. Read and try to comprehend the reference link I previously posted, so you may better understand the portions in bold, which is relevant to the claims made by Rossi or any other person claiming COP > 1.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 15, 2012, 09:35:41 PM
Where did I ever claim that Frank Wilczek has resolved LENR? I never did! In addition to this, you never read the post which I referenced. If you did, then you didn't understand it. The post I referenced has nothing to do with Frank Wilczek being able to resolve LENR, but has everything to do with how to correctly apply and understand the mass-energy equation. I will repeat and make it in bold.
The total energy of a system is conserved, but mass is not. Conservation of energy applies to systems, not to individual bodies. Conservation of energy does not apply to individual bodies. Read and try to comprehend the reference link I previously posted, so you may better understand the portions in bold, which relates to the claims made by Rossi or any other person claiming COP > 1.
Gravock
My dear Gravock,
I most certainly DID read that link. But I am not even referring to that - in my reply. What I'm asking is this? Do you have a way to resolve the lack of emissions?...is all. THAT would really be of interest. Because LENR is the topic under discussion. Smokey and Mark S Coffman seem to think that there's a required 'conservation of energy' . Which is not appropriate to LENR. You point out Wilczek's proposal that mass is related to 'velocity' - which I am not sure I buy into - but nonetheless. The fact is that whatever Wilczek's proposals - there is no compliance to the conservation of mass to energy in the Third Law of Thermodynamics. Nuclear interactions ONLY require the conservation of CHARGE.
I most certainly did NOT intend to be confrontational Gravock. I was simply asking.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
:)
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 15, 2012, 09:49:27 PM
My dear Gravock,
I most certainly DID read that link. But I am not even referring to that - in my reply. What I'm asking is this? Do you have a way to resolve the lack of emissions?...is all. THAT would really be of interest. Because LENR is the topic under discussion. Smokey and Mark S Coffman seem to think that there's a required 'conservation of energy' . Which is not appropriate to LENR. You point out Wilczek's proposal that mass is related to 'velocity' - which I am not sure I buy into - but nonetheless. The fact is that whatever Wilczek's proposals - there is no compliance to the conservation of mass to energy in the Third Law of Thermodynamics. Nuclear interactions ONLY require the conservation of CHARGE.
I most certainly did NOT intend to be confrontational Gravock. I was simply asking.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
:)
Rosemary
Where did you get that Wilczek proposed mass is related to velocity? You're confusing mass with energy. When the velocity increases, then the energy increases, while it's mass remains the same. Energy and mass are not proportional to each other for moving bodies.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 15, 2012, 09:55:40 PM
Rosemary
Where did you get that Wilczek proposed mass is related to velocity? You're confusing mass with energy. When the velocity increases, then the energy increases, while it's mass remains the same.
Gravock
Thanks for the clarification Gravock. Now. Do you have something to tell us related to LENR? We're all trying to find out if there is anything on offer that resolves this. That would really be interesting.
Thanks,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 15, 2012, 09:59:10 PM
Thanks for the clarification Gravock. Now. Do you have something to tell us related to LENR. We're all trying to find out if there is anything on offer that resolves this. That would really be interesting.
Thanks,
Rosemary
Do I have something to tell which is related to LENR? Yes, I do. If those 2 girls in the below picture can do it, then we can too. They built a working LENR device. Test results of their experiment can be found at this link (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/html/cfrmhmc.htm). Naudin's LENR test results are very impressive and can be found here (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/html/cfrdatas.htm). My advice would be to start building. There is no need to wait on Rossi, for there are more than one way to skin a cat (e-Cat that is).
Gravock
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 15, 2012, 12:04:35 PM
While Mark is a phenominal debator,. its very rare that i find me and him seeing eye to eye on most issues..
But i have to agree with him here, he makes a very valid point....
Why does the energy equivalency of this system seem to persist, regardless of the arrangement?
to put it quite simply, ... regardless of energy input, or output of the system, the mass to energy equivalency of the internal system, is conserved.
YES, this type of system allows us to perform reactions, at energy levels much lower than those used in other types of systems.. However, this equivalency remains unchanged. You can analyze this system from either perspective, with the square of c, or the square of T, and there will always be a proportional ratio between energy and mass. (ths is because of the relativity between the speed of light and "time" )
The bottom line is, altering either the input, or the output of the system, alters the relative reaction rate of the internal system. Thus making this system, completely "conservative", meaning it does not violate any laws of physics.
As far as the C.O.P. is concerned,.. This value is always going to be obscured by an external analysis, and until the scientists involved fully understand the processes they are toying around with, there will always be a line in the sand, between those who 'observe' anomalous C.O.P. values, and those who are ingenuitive enough to resolve them from a 'Black-Box' analysis.
The fact of the matter remains unchanged.. It is halfway through Feb. and we still see no "game changer"
@Smokey:
Well, when are you going to break the news to NASA? I Know! I'll pick you and Mark up and take you both over to NASA! Then you can straighten those clowns out. The nerve of credentialed scientists telling nobodies like you and Mark that LENR is for real.
After you get those head scientists over at NASA straightened out, I'll drive you both over to MIT next and you can get started on these guys. The nerve of those guys!!! Maybe you and Mark can take over both MIT and NASA? Meanwhile, I'll see if I can make you guys up some badges to get past security.
Now be sure to let us know MIT's and NASA's response. I think you guys got 'em...
Chess
Quote from: gravityblock on February 15, 2012, 10:20:00 PM
Do I have something to tell which is related to LENR? Yes, I do. If those 2 girls in the below picture can do it, then we can too. They built a working LENR device. Test results of their experiment can be found at this link (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/html/cfrmhmc.htm). Naudin's LENR test results are very impressive and can be found here (http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/html/cfrdatas.htm). My advice would be to start building. There is no need to wait on Rossi, for there are more than one way to skin a cat (e-Cat that is).
Gravock
Very nice indeed Gravock. However not exactly what I asked. But nonetheless very interesting indeed. It seems that our high school students could manage this relatively easily. And that's really important - that we don't get too dependent on our generator suppliers. It'll keep their costs realistic too. Which is a good thing. I'm always concerned that we'll end up relying on another set of expertise that makes it difficult to simply apply this energy as required. Then we'll become overly dependent on what could also become another kind of monopoly. What will our poor energy suppliers do - in the face of all this? If I was a broker - then about now I'd be advising my clients to start off loading standard energy stocks. LOL
Kindest as ever
Rosemary
Quote from: chessnyt on February 15, 2012, 10:36:44 PM
@Smokey:
Well, when are you going to break the news to NASA? I Know! I'll pick you and Mark up and take you both over to NASA! Then you can straighten those clowns out. The nerve of credentialed scientists telling nobodies like you and Mark that LENR is for real.
After you get those head scientists over at NASA straightened out, I'll drive you both over to MIT next and you can get started on these guys. The nerve of those guys!!! Maybe you and Mark can take over both MIT and NASA? Meanwhile, I'll see if I can make you guys up some badges to get past security.
Now be sure to let us know MIT's and NASA's response. I think you guys got 'em...
Chess
;D Indeed. Our members can yet make a positive contribution before this nonsense gets out of hand. Critical. LOL
Kindest, as ever,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 15, 2012, 10:44:48 PM
Very nice indeed Gravock. However not exactly what I asked. But nonetheless very interesting indeed. It seems that our high school students could manage this relatively easily. And that's really important - that we don't get too dependent on our generator suppliers. It'll keep their costs realistic too. Which is a good thing. I'm always concerned that we'll end up relying on another set of expertise that makes it difficult to simply apply this energy as required. Then we'll become overly dependent on what could also become another kind of monopoly. What will our poor energy suppliers do - in the face of all this? If I was a broker - then about now I'd be advising my clients to start off loading standard energy stocks. LOL
Kindest as ever
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
If you view the video attached to the opening post of this thread, there is actually someone in the video advising another to do just this saying something like, "If you hurry, there's still time for you to sell your Mobil/Exxon shares" (I'm paraphrasing here).
Yes, this is almost going to look so much like mass insider trader. Exxon/Mobil has got to be thinking "SUCKERS!" to everyone who buys a share at this point. No wonder they have to keep the majority of the media away from this story. It's a good thing they own them and even were able to buy them on the cheap ;)
Talk about a fiery stock crash :o
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on February 15, 2012, 10:56:36 PM
@Rosemary:
If you view the video attached to the opening post of this thread, there is actually someone in the video advising another to do just this saying something like, "If you hurry, there's still time for you to sell your Mobil/Exxon shares" (I'm paraphrasing here).
Yes, this is almost going to look so much like mass insider trader. Exxon/Mobil has got to be thinking "SUCKERS!" to everyone who buys a share at this point. No wonder they have to keep the majority of the media away from this story. It's a good thing they own them and even were able to buy them on the cheap ;)
Talk about a fiery stock crash :o
Chess
Joking aside Chess. I've got a small investment lined up for a permanent 'sell'. I'm just waiting for our petrol prices to start dropping a tad - or, to stop peaking. That may be the death knell. Because from there the price will plummet. At the moment it's artificially inflated and I think they may want to try and make it a viable alternative - and that AT PACE.
Guys, all, I REALLY cannot find a way out of this for our standard energy producers. Not even our 'green energies' - solar, wind, wave anything at all - are going to get into this picture. The worst of it is that - if it is this easy to transmute our elements - then the holy grail related to 'gold' from anything at all - is well within reach. ALCHEMY - with a vengeance. And what, in God's name - will that do for market stability? I think we'll all be like Little Chicken Licken - and complain that the Sky has fallen. Except that it'll be the Market has CRASHED. It's scarey. But it's exciting. Hopefully someone out there is preparing some kind of reasonable transition - from NOTHING to EVERYTHING. It's potential has no UPWARD LIMIT.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 15, 2012, 10:44:48 PM
Very nice indeed Gravock. However not exactly what I asked. But nonetheless very interesting indeed. It seems that our high school students could manage this relatively easily. And that's really important - that we don't get too dependent on our generator suppliers. It'll keep their costs realistic too. Which is a good thing. I'm always concerned that we'll end up relying on another set of expertise that makes it difficult to simply apply this energy as required. Then we'll become overly dependent on what could also become another kind of monopoly. What will our poor energy suppliers do - in the face of all this? If I was a broker - then about now I'd be advising my clients to start off loading standard energy stocks. LOL
Kindest as ever
Rosemary
The answer I gave was exactly what you asked. Maybe you were looking for a different answer. If this was the case, then you didn't ask the right question. Now, I hope you're not confusing Frank Wilczek with Frank Znidarsic. Frank Wilczek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Wilczek) is a Nobel Prize Winner and he is considered one of the world’s most eminent theoretical physicists. He is known, among other things, for the discovery of asymptotic freedom and the development of quantum chromodynamics (QCD) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_chromodynamics). QCD is an important part of the Standard Model of particle physics. He's also an official advisor to CERN and to Daedalus. According to Wilczek and the standard model, photons inside superconductors are slowed-down and behave as particles with real mass.
This may come as a shocker to some, but Wilczek supports the idea of an Aether.
According to Rossi, LENR exploits the weak nuclear force. The below quote by Rossi can be found in the New Energy Times magazine (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/36/3626-energycatalyzer.shtml).
Quote from: Rossi
ROSSI. Exactly. In fact, mine is not "cold fusion" but weak [force] nuclear reactions. Pons and Fleischmann did heavy-water electrolysis with a palladium cathode and a platinum anode. I don't do electrolysis, I don't use either platinum or palladium and I use temperatures that manage to melt nickel.
Now, what does this have to do with Frank Wilczek, Frank Znidarsic, and the work of Ioannis Xydous? It has everything to do with it. Pay close attention Rosemary. According to Xydous, there is a reduction in the E/M wave's velocity when it enters into an Electrostatic Field. This is in agreement with Wilczek's claims with photons being slowed-down inside a superconductor, and is also in agreement with Znidarsic's work when the speed of light is slowed down in the electronic structure of the atom to match the speed of mechanical waves in the nucleus. All three are saying light slows down in the presence of an Electric Field. Let's see what Wilczek has to say about the weak nuclear force, since Rossi is claiming this force as being responsible for the nuclear reactions in his device.
Quote from: Wilczek
The model Nature gives us for making force-carrying particles heavy is superconductivity. For inside superconductors, photons become heavy! Here’s the essential idea. Photons are moving disturbances in electric and magnetic fields. In a superconductor, electrons respond vigorously to electric and magnetic fields. The electrons’ attempt to restore equilibrium is so vigorous that they exert a kind of drag on the fields’ motion. Instead of moving at the usual speed of light, therefore, inside a superconductor photons move more slowly. It’s as if they’ve acquired inertia. When you study the equations, you find that the slowed-down photons inside a superconductor obey the same equations of motion as would particles with real mass.
......
............
................
Cosmic Superconductivity: Electroweak Layer
The weak interaction is a short-range force. The fields responsible for this force, the W and Z, are similar in many ways to the electromagnetic field. The particles that arise as disturbances in these fields (the W and Z particles) resemble photons. Like photons, they are bosons. Like photons, they respond to chargesâ€"not electric charges to be sure, but what we’ve called green and purple charges, with similar physical properties. Their most obvious difference from photons is that W and Z are heavy particles. (Each weighs about as much as one hundred protons.)
Short-range force. Heavy particles. Sound familiar? It should. Those are exactly the properties of electromagnetic forces and photons inside superconductors. The modern theory of electroweak interactions is heavily invested in the analogy between what happens to photons inside superconductors and the observed properties of W and Z bosons in the cosmos. According to this part of the Core theory, the entity we perceive as empty spaceâ€"the Gridâ€"is a super conductor. Even though the conceptual and mathematical parallels run very deep, Grid superconductivity differs from conventional superconductivity in four main ways:
Occurrence: Conventional superconductivity requires special materials and low temperatures. Even the new “high temperature†superconductors max out at less than 200 Kelvin (room temperature is about 300 Kelvin). Grid superconductivity is everywhere, and has never been observed to break down. Theoretically, it should persist up to about 1016 Kelvin.
Scale: The photon mass inside a conventional superconductor is 10â€"11 proton masses, or less. The W and Z masses are about 102 proton masses.
What Flows: The super-currents of conventional superconductivity are flows of electric charge. They cause electromagnetic fields to become short range, and photons to acquire mass. The super-currents of Grid superconductivity are correlated flows of much less familiar types of charge: purple weak charge and hypercharge. W and Z fields can be generated by those flows, so the forces that W and Z generate become short-range, and the W and Z particles acquire mass.
....
........
Rosemary, How in the world are you going to absorb all of this without getting it mostly wrong? Did I answer your question? Yes, both here and in my previous post. This post is definitely more in line with the type of answer you were looking for. Space (Aether) is a multilayered, multicolored superconductor which can be exploited through the weak nuclear force. Znidarsic's quantum transitional velocity is 1094000 m/s, which is 3.139... times the Aether's linear velocity of 348422.9 m/s. This is so very close to pi = 3.14... The Aether's linear velocity is computed by Ioannis Xydous in his publication titled, "
The secret of the Electron-Positron pair v2.0". E/M waves slow down to 1094000 m/s in the electronic structure of the atom to match the speed of mechanical waves (sound) in the nucleus. Would you say a strong electrostatic field is a good place to start? What about a strong oscillating electrostatic field which varies in strength and/or distance to generate a broadband of frequencies. And wouldn't all of the different frequencies generated have a different momentum which would correspond to different energy levels? In addition to this,
wouldn't all of the different energy levels deliver excess energy continuously instead of in short bursts? And if you can swallow this post, then I'll bring something else to your attention which is related to Xydous's work, which is more related to the catalyst. On second thought, maybe you should seek this information on your own.
Do you have anything to tell or share which is related to LENR, other than running the page count of this thread up to an extremely high level where people won't bother or take the time out to actually read the entire thread? Any arguments or misunderstandings you may have about this post will be ignored. I see at least 50 additional pages to clear up any misunderstandings you may encounter while trying to absorb this information.
Gravock
Quote from: Doctor No on February 12, 2012, 08:25:08 AM
7-th:
You should really to start learning math (as bankers only do good).
"A 10KW e-cat will convert 7 liters of water into 120 degrees Celsius of steam in
one single hour - according to Andrea Rossi this is no fiction."
This is only 0.9 kWh of heat power- this is no fiction too.
7 L x 110 (dT) x 4.200=3.234.000 : 3.600.000=0.898333 kWh
(i think i don't need to clear what dT, 4.200, 3.600.000 values are, em i right folks?)
...
ALL CLEAR GEANTELMEN?
Dr. Adolf Nowak
NSPAP
http://nspap.livejournal.com (http://nspap.livejournal.com)
I'm sorry but the above is plain wrong. Water is boiling. Please add some heat of vaporization and correct the math, Dr.
I'm still waiting for your reply on the chemical reaction (6th point in http://www.overunity.com/11404/first-free-energy-device-reaches-market-in-october-the-game-changer-is-here/msg312398/#msg312398) that you implied it might generate such energies.
Do I waste my time or I'm simply not enough of a "semi serious" member here by your standards?
Cheers,
Tinu
Hello again Gravock,
Reading between the lines,... and so many of them. Golly. Anyway. I get the distinct impression that you're not talking about LENR at all - but something about some theory related to ... I have no idea what? Bores me to tears. Bear in mind Gravock. I'm rather OLD and rather slow of thought. It's a kind of arthritis of the mind. And, if you don't mind my saying so publicly, I get the distinct impression that you're little irritated? With me? Am I right? Perhaps, in the fullness of time, you'll explain this. Hopefully not on this thread. Use your own. Because I rather suspect you're drifting off topic. :o
No idea what to make of the following comments...
Quote from: gravityblock on February 16, 2012, 03:14:36 AM
...Rosemary, How in the world are you going to absorb all of this without getting it mostly wrong?
Why should you suppose that I'd get it wrong? I don't care enough to get any of it at all.
Quote from: gravityblock on February 16, 2012, 03:14:36 AM...Did I answer your question? Yes, both here and in my previous post.
No actually. Not in either. I was interested to see if you yourself knew anything at all about LENR. It seems not. You're only going on about someone else? Never head of him, her? Them?
Quote from: gravityblock on February 16, 2012, 03:14:36 AMAnd if you can swallow this post, then I'll bring something else to your attention which is related to Xydous's work, which is more related to the catalyst.
Why should I swallow your post? I'd rather not. Thank you anyway. And I'm not sure I want to know about Xydous either. Whoever he is.
Quote from: gravityblock on February 16, 2012, 03:14:36 AMOn second thought, maybe you should seek this information on your own.
No thanks. I'll pass, if you don't mind. I only wanted to learn more about LENR. Golly. I had no idea you'd take it so PERSONALLY? It's probably best to ignore my first question. I really shouldn't have asked? Reckless of me. I see that now. 8) LOL
Quote from: gravityblock on February 16, 2012, 03:14:36 AMDo you have anything to tell or share which is related to LENR, other than running the page count of this thread up to an extremely high level where people won't bother or take the time out to actually read the entire thread?
I'm not sure that I'm guilty of this. Not at all. Actually, I wonder if it's you who's rather moving a little bit off topic - all over the place. Not sure. As I explained - I'm rather old. I just don't have the mental agility to jump around among a whole lot of obscure references. Better just ignore my first question. It was JUST SO INNOCENT. :o And I get all this? :o Golly. ;D
Quote from: gravityblock on February 16, 2012, 03:14:36 AMAny arguments or misunderstandings you may have about this post will be ignored.
On the contrary. I'm paying close attention. I just CANNOT understand any of this. Unless you're saying that you'll my ignore arguments and misunderstandings. Just as well. I have no argument. But I have NO understanding either.
Quote from: gravityblock on February 16, 2012, 03:14:36 AMI see at least 50 additional pages to clear up any misunderstandings you may encounter while trying to absorb this information.
Not unless you want to write those pages. Again. I'll pass. Actually trust me on this. I'll never ask you a question again. In future I'll confine myself to STATEMENT. Golly. And to think that I only wanted to learn more about LENR. Who'd have thought?
;D
Kindest regards Gravock, and thanks for the laugh. I'm always amused at an inappropriate reaction.
Rosie
[/quote]
@Gravock: Looks like you were exactly right. ;)
@tinu: It's true that the _output_ water from a Rossi device is or was boiling. But surely you know that to get water to 120 degrees (actually Rossi reported 130 degrees inside the Ottoman ECat) it must be held in a pressurized vessel, and doesn't necessarily need to boil.
At the end of the Rossi demo a tap is opened and a large quantity of water flashing to steam is emitted... for a long time... since there's 30 liters or more of water at 130 degrees acting as a heat reservoir in there. Think of popping the radiator cap on a hot car engine...... All that phase change energy is stored in the hot water, and it's only the release of pressure that allows it to actually change the phase.
But it's available to boil small quantities of feedwater that's being fed through an internal heat exchanger submerged inside the 30 liters of 130 degree liquid, non-boiling pressurized water.
All that's needed to simulate FULLY the phenomena shown by Rossi in the Ottoman ECat demonstration is a ball float valve, a T-connection, an internal heat exchanger, and a vessel capable of holding the 130 degree water.
The empty device is weighed. Then it's hooked up to the pump and the heater power. As the pump squirts in its 2 cc per second, the empty space fills, because the floating ball valve is below the seal, and so the water flows into the container, not out the outlet leg of the T. The water heats up too since the heaters are on. The "demo" hasn't started yet, remember... this is the "warm-up" period, nothing comes out of the ECat's outlet. Then, after however long it takes, the ball valve is up at the top and seals off the pressure vessel, which is hot enough now so that the pressure continues to rise and the ball seals ever tighter. The input water is now passively diverted down the other end of the T and flows into the internal heat exchanger.... which is now at 120-130 C from the electrical input. There's a "lot" of energy stored in that reservoir of 130 degree non-boiling water: nearly all of the "warm-up" energy is there and available to boil the small flow through the heat exchanger. The steam from this boiling is the visible and measured output of the ECat.... but there is still that big reservoir of hot, pressurised non-boiling water inside. For safety, there's probably also a pressure relief valve, venting From the pressure vessel INTO the output line.
Heat after death? No problem. 30 liters of water at 130 degrees, and the metal mass containing it, also at 130 degrees, store enough energy to continue boiling the input water coming from the pump at 2 ml/sec for a long time. I don't know how long..... but I'm trying to talk somebody into calculating it based on my assumptions above.
I think this model accounts for all the features of the Ottoman Ecat demonstration: the before and after weighings, the 130 degree internal temperature, the "quiescence" requiring re-heating of the reservoir water, the "heat after death", and most importantly the gushing of steam/water at the end of the video..... an event whose significance seems to have escaped many observers.
Now open it up, look inside... you see a big empty box with some pipes and a much smaller "reactor" box that looks like a pretty efficient heat exchanger, that you can't look inside.
Hi TK,
I was not familiar with the Ottoman ECat but with the smaller version that can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m-8QdVwY98E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m-8QdVwY98E)
I suppose Ottoman is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNhQIufkdL4&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNhQIufkdL4&feature=related)
And yes, I do believe your explanation makes perfect sense.
I’ll try to check it from the movie if I can. Let’s see…
At 22:30 the electrical heat is switched off (4:55 in the movie). Power in goes to about 24-26W. (5:10 in the movie). Temperature is 133.5C (5:52 in the movie) at 22:38. Temperature of cold water is 28.9C .
I believe the flow is stated to be 15l/h or about 4cc/s. (It’s a different pump).
End time is being stated as 10:10pm (6:08 in the movie), which I suppose is a mistake because it is immediately said that “we’ve been going half an hour without electrical energyâ€. I’ll assume that real time was 23:10. Temperature is 121.9C (6:12 in the movie) at 23:10. Temperature of cold water is 29.3C.
Searching for additional data…
Volume of water inside the ECat is indeed stated to be 30l (2:40 in the movie).
“Pump is consuming about 15 l/h†(03:02 in the movie).
So delta(t) for the hot reservoir is 11.6C, volume is 30l so Q = 30 * 4187 * 11.6 = 1457076J
Q electric = 25W * 1800 s = 45000J
Q container I approximate to be 5% of that of water inside, which is 1457076*5%= 72854J
Q total = 1574930J
If cold water in is 28.9C and hot water out is 100C, delta(t) is 71.1C
At Q total above, the quantity of water that can be heated by 71.1C is
m= 1574930J/(71.1C*4187J/kgC)= 5,29kg
m= 5.29kg imho pretty much sums up that you were right. It corresponds to a flow of 2.93cc/s (or 10.6l/h).
Considering the pump was stopped at a given but unknown moment and the large number of variables (like the exact inside volume of ECat, precise flow rate etc), I conclude there is no heat after death. If it was heat after death, I would simply let the Ecat to go back again from 111C to 133.5C with the pump stopped and from that I would compute its power output without much doubts. ;)
Best regards TK
And sorry for the bad news, folks.
Tinu
@Everyone:
The deal is going down people and LENR is going to grab a lot of exposure (and free press).
Here's the recent skinny on things related to the technology that is going to change not only the game, but the players as well!!!
The infamous Dick Smith (Australian businessman and skeptic) himself offered $1 million dollars to Andrea Rossi for another demonstration of his E-cat where judges of the demo would decide if it does in fact perform as advertised. Not surprisingly, Rossi turned down the offer stating that he was busy getting ready for mass production of his device(s).
Rossi declining this offer didn't suprise me in the least.
Then, Dick Smith extended the exact same offer to Defkalion and THEY HAVE ACCEPTED HIS OFFER!!
Very EXCITING NEWS!
Regards,
Chess
@tinu: thanks for running the numbers... and for watching that video again. I can't do either one, it makes my eyeballs cross.
As far as I can tell, there has been no need for Rossi to do any fancy tricks with gimmicked wiring or water diversions. All his output seems to be pretty well accounted for by his known electrical input, every time that we actually have data for.
I can hardly wait to see what Defkalion is going to do. It would be funny either way: Smith keeps his million but Hyperion turns out to be real, or Smith loses his million to a successful demo, and then Hyperion later turns out to be fake..... It will be a great show however it ends.
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 17, 2012, 01:03:55 AM
@tinu: thanks for running the numbers... and for watching that video again. I can't do either one, it makes my eyeballs cross.
As far as I can tell, there has been no need for Rossi to do any fancy tricks with gimmicked wiring or water diversions. All his output seems to be pretty well accounted for by his known electrical input, every time that we actually have data for.
I can hardly wait to see what Defkalion is going to do. It would be funny either way: Smith keeps his million but Hyperion turns out to be real, or Smith loses his million to a successful demo, and then Hyperion later turns out to be fake..... It will be a great show however it ends.
You've omitted another optional outcome. Defkalion earn the prize - get huge publicity - up their sales and it's NOT FAKE? I think that the most of us reading here would be delighted to approve those numbers and observations that you and tinu managed. The trouble is that none of them relates to anything official. And if all that steam was simply held under pressure - the amount of water finally discharged was far greater in volume than the size of the container - from 'whence it came' let alone the amount of water vapour that escaped as steam. LOL.
If you guys really need to 'cast doubt' you need to make your evidence more convincing. Otherwise the most of us are simply inclined to suppose that you're doing that 'thing' that you do best. You follow the three rules of 'trollmanship'. Which is to deny, and deny and deny.
Anyway. Well done for the effort.
Kindest regards,
Rosie Pose
You poor thing. You continue to show your willful ignorance in every post you make. I genuinely feel sorry for you, Rosie Posie.
Quote from: TinselKoala on February 17, 2012, 01:16:57 AM
You poor thing. You continue to show your willful ignorance in every post you make. I genuinely feel sorry for you, Rosie Posie.
TK - Thanks for the sympathy. Much needed. However, you need to hold some back for yourselves. I think we're witnessing the final 'challenge' so to speak. It is my humble but considered opinion that our monopolists have had their day. I'm actually increasingly concerned that there will be no stopping all this ABUNDANT energy. And I also wonder if this doesn't rather confront the best interests of our poor energy producers. If so, then we're looking to replace them with something that's likely to advance the greater good for the greater number. A rare historical event. And again, in my humble opinion, likely to be a very good thing.
But as I say. It's probably as well that you try and inject a note of scepticism. Else we'll be prematurely 'giddy' with all this good news. And then what will we manage when we start buying those E-cat units? Better to portion out that happiness. Over an extended time. Sort of makes sense to me.
And thanks, as ever, for your references. They're gold.
Kindest regards,
Rosie Posie
On Feb. 24th people from the Greece government will start, as the first party in a row of 7, evaluating the Hyperion of Defkalion.
(source: Defkalion's forum)
Each party gets a timeslot of 48 hours, so we probably will get some new data in a week or so.
Would be interesting to see how much these 7 evaluations correlate.
Below is a quote on PESN, titled, "Momentous Breakthroughs Announced During Anniversary E-Cat Interview (http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/)".
Quote from: PESN
RADIO FREQUENCY GENERATORS -- In addition to the catalysts, a question was asked about the radio frequency generator that somehow interacts with the reactions inside of the core. Rossi stated this information is very proprietary, but gave a few clues. First, he compared the use of the radio frequencies to martial arts. He claims that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the fusion process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you. The full theory of how the system works will be revealed, "soon," he said.
There is no need for us to design this RF generator. Dr. Stiffler has already designed a RF generator which produces a broadband of frequencies in multiples of 1094000 hertz, which is related to Znidarsic's quantum transitional velocity of 1094000 m/s, which is equal to the aether's linear velocity * Pi.
Just a thought,
Gravock
The time draws ever nearer when speculation will be replaced by facts , on e way or the other . I believe Cold Fusion to be real , if for no other reason that it has been verified in many places at different times . In the meantime , it would be nice if we could treat each other with love and respect .
Below is another quote on PESN, titled, "Momentous Breakthroughs Announced During Anniversary E-Cat Interview (http://"http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/")".
Quote from: PESN
GAMMA RADIATION AND ANTI-MATTER -- The E-Cat technology produces low energy gamma radiation that is converted into heat inside of the reactor. The signature of the gamma radiation that has been detected is said to be 511 keV at 180 degrees. These gamma rays are thought to be produced when electrons impact positrons and annihilate each other. So, if we understand correctly, Rossi theorizes that inside of the E-Cat there are anti-matter/matter annihilation taking place, releasing energy. However, he stated this is just a side effect of what really takes place, which he has previously indicated is nuclear fusion.
Electrons colliding with positrons is also explained in Xydous's publication titled, "
The secret of the Electron-Positron pair v2.0".
Gravock
Quote from: PESN
GAMMA RADIATION AND ANTI-MATTER -- The E-Cat technology produces low energy gamma radiation that is converted into heat inside of the reactor. The signature of the gamma radiation that has been detected is said to be 511 keV at 180 degrees. These gamma rays are thought to be produced when electrons impact positrons and annihilate each other. So, if we understand correctly, Rossi theorizes that inside of the E-Cat there are anti-matter/matter annihilation taking place, releasing energy. However, he stated this is just a side effect of what really takes place, which he has previously indicated is nuclear fusion.
Rosemary,
I'll almost bet the excess heat which is generated from your circuit is the signature of the gamma radiation produced when electrons impact positrons and annihilate each other. Why do you think I repeatedly made the below statement in your thread? Because we need to distinguish if there are both positive charges (positrons) and negative charges (electrons) flowing which could annihilate each other producing excess heat.
Harti, please unlock Rosemary's thread.Gravock
Quote from: GravockUsing the right hand and pointing the thumb in the direction of the moving positive charge or positive current and the fingers in the direction of the magnetic field the resulting force on the charge points outwards from the palm. The force on a negatively charged particle is in the opposite direction. If both the speed and the charge are reversed then the direction of the force remains the same. For that reason a magnetic field measurement (by itself) cannot distinguish whether there is a positive charge moving to the right or a negative charge moving to the left. (Both of these cases produce the same current.) On the other hand, a magnetic field combined with an electric field can distinguish between these, such as the Hall effect.
Hi all,
I've finally listened right through that interview with Sterling. Thanks for the link Gravock. What struck me was that the for electrical generation they need a higher temperature output. By about 4 times. Although doable, even then they'll be hide bound by licensing requirements from Hell. 'Authorisations' as Rossi put's it. Which, from where I sit, means that our grid suppliers have got the edge - and they'll probably just buy Rossi's technology to supplement either the fossil fuels or the nuclear energies that they use at present. That's sort of good news. But not entirely. Because we'll still end up paying our grid suppliers - and I'm not sure they'll be under the same pressure to reduce their costs. However. This, perhaps, is where our own experimental genius's can come into their own. So guys. Here's the challenge. Find a way of running a motor on electrical applications that are generated from just 120 degrees - the standard E-cat. I'll put money on it that you lot could do this. On your ears. If there were dedicated E-cats for lights - then another for say, the stove... and another for 'fans' and on and on. Four E-cats per household - and it's still cheaper than our utility suppliers. Or it would be in South Africa. By a long shot. In fact, if those E-cats are priced at say $450.00 per unit - x 4 = $1800 x plus/minus 7 to convert to rands, R 12 700.00. The average 3 bedroomed house-hold here costs in the region of R 800.00 per month. Therefore capital outlay would be paid back within a 1.5 years. Which is nothing. If those numbers sort of correlate to our American households - then the sky's the limit. And if it's open sourced? Even better.
Just a thought. I'm possibly a tad too optimistic. But it's certainly a workable target. I just don't actually understand why that conversion to electricity needs so much more heat? Surely it depends on each application? I can see that the stove would eat up energy. But by the same token our lights - subject to moving to those energy efficiency numbers - take up virtually nothing any more. And all that's left then is our computers and televisions. I don't mind paying that much to our monopolists. It's the cheapest possible use of their supplies.
Can't wait to see those first units. He's designed this to come on stream when you Americans will be staring at winter - on the horizon. Good timing.
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 17, 2012, 02:36:02 PM
Hi all,
I've finally listened right through that interview with Sterling. Thanks for the link Gravock. What struck me was that the for electrical generation they need a higher temperature output. By about 4 times.
The Power Density of the Energy is proportional to the fourth power of the Temperature as explained in Xydous's publication. Below is a snapshot showing this.
Gravock
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 17, 2012, 02:36:02 PM
Can't wait to see those first units. He's designed this to come on stream when you Americans will be staring at winter - on the horizon. Good timing.
Rosemary
I highly doubt the 'Market' will include the general public. This technology will more than likely be under the same control as nuclear power plants. Don't you guys see what is happening. TPTB appears to have possibly stolen technology developed by the open-source community while patenting it in order to keep it out of our hands. The open-source community is being Bamboozled and Hoodwinked. Start building!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 17, 2012, 03:36:19 PM
I highly doubt the 'Market' will include the general public. This technology will more than likely be under the same control as nuclear power plants. Don't you guys see what is happening. TPTB appears to have possibly stolen technology developed by the open-source community while patenting it in order to keep it out of our hands. The open-source community is being Bamboozled and Hoodwinked. Start building!
Gravock
Gravock,
I share your worries. The nuclear plants are nothing but steam powered generators. It would be a piece of cake to replace with e-cat systems.
And it would certainly not change the present electricity prices, it would just make the fat ones even fatter.
My only hope is that AR will get his production and sale of domestic units started before the big guys stop him.
Because they will stop him, one way or the other, sooner or later. That´s the way it works, no matter what we think.
Thinking otherwise is utterly childish, since this world has gotten into the hands of heartless people with twisted minds.
Andrea Rossi have turned a big slab of rock, now they are forced to crawl forth and act in the dark.
Being aware of this is our only upper hand.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 17, 2012, 02:36:02 PM
Hi all,
I've finally listened right through that interview with Sterling. Thanks for the link Gravock. What struck me was that the for electrical generation they need a higher temperature output. By about 4 times. Although doable, even then they'll be hide bound by licensing requirements from Hell. 'Authorisations' as Rossi put's it. Which, from where I sit, means that our grid suppliers have got the edge - and they'll probably just buy Rossi's technology to supplement either the fossil fuels or the nuclear energies that they use at present. That's sort of good news. But not entirely. Because we'll still end up paying our grid suppliers - and I'm not sure they'll be under the same pressure to reduce their costs. However. This, perhaps, is where our own experimental genius's can come into their own. So guys. Here's the challenge. Find a way of running a motor on electrical applications that are generated from just 120 degrees - the standard E-cat. I'll put money on it that you lot could do this. On your ears. If there were dedicated E-cats for lights - then another for say, the stove... and another for 'fans' and on and on. Four E-cats per household - and it's still cheaper than our utility suppliers. Or it would be in South Africa. By a long shot. In fact, if those E-cats are priced at say $450.00 per unit - x 4 = $1800 x plus/minus 7 to convert to rands, R 12 700.00. The average 3 bedroomed house-hold here costs in the region of R 800.00 per month. Therefore capital outlay would be paid back within a 1.5 years. Which is nothing. If those numbers sort of correlate to our American households - then the sky's the limit. And if it's open sourced? Even better.
Just a thought. I'm possibly a tad too optimistic. But it's certainly a workable target. I just don't actually understand why that conversion to electricity needs so much more heat? Surely it depends on each application? I can see that the stove would eat up energy. But by the same token our lights - subject to moving to those energy efficiency numbers - take up virtually nothing any more. And all that's left then is our computers and televisions. I don't mind paying that much to our monopolists. It's the cheapest possible use of their supplies.
Can't wait to see those first units. He's designed this to come on stream when you Americans will be staring at winter - on the horizon. Good timing.
Rosemary
Rosemary,
I am sure there will be a whole lot of experimentation going on when or if the e-cats gets out into the market.
As I have mentioned in earlier posts, the same day I get my four pre-ordered e-cats, I will start dismantle the cooling system of three of the units
and rebuild them to function as a serially connected heater incorporated into a traditional steam engine, capable of producing the 5 KW needed to keep the e-cats going.
The excess heat will be conducted into heating steam radiators, and the condensed water circulated back to the e-cats.
The forth e-cat I will dismantle all the way and back engineer.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on February 17, 2012, 03:46:23 PM
Gravock,
I share your worries. The nuclear plants are nothing but steam powered generators. It would be a piece of cake to replace with e-cat systems.
And it would certainly not change the present electricity prices, it would just make the fat ones even fatter.
Rosemary,
I am sure there will be a whole lot of experimentation going on after e-cats gets out into the market.
As I have mentioned in earlier posts, the same day I get my four pre-ordered e-cats, I will start dismantle the cooling system of three of the units
and rebuild them to function as a serially connected heater incorporated into a traditional steam engine, capable of producing the 5 KW needed to keep the e-cats going.
The excess heat will be conducted into heating steam radiators, and the condensed water circulated back to the e-cats.
The forth e-cat I will dismantle all the way and back engineer.
Gwandau
IMO, whatever that may be worth, the "bringing this to the market" may be a little deceitful and nothing more than a stall tactic. Will the pre-orders be funding their own agenda either now or in the future? And then, after the technology is on-line and in their full control, you'll be reimbursed with no e-Cats to back engineer.
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on February 17, 2012, 03:46:23 PM
Rosemary,
I am sure there will be a whole lot of experimentation going on when or if the e-cats gets out into the market.
As I have mentioned in earlier posts, the same day I get my four pre-ordered e-cats, I will start dismantle the cooling system of three of the units
and rebuild them to function as a serially connected heater incorporated into a traditional steam engine, capable of producing the 5 KW needed to keep the e-cats going.
The excess heat will be conducted into heating steam radiators, and the condensed water circulated back to the e-cats.
The forth e-cat I will dismantle all the way and back engineer.
Gwandau
;D How nice is this? Good thinking Gwandau. If it's this easy then I'll relax. I'm more than a little anxious to see the last of NUCLEAR energy - they're planning expansions here. Dear God. And they're trying their damnedest to keep this E-cat news away from our local papers. I keep writing letters about it - but it makes not an ounce of difference. I don't think ANYONE can stop this now. But it's probably best to not underestimate the enemy. And between now and September our Government will bury our children in debts for this ruddy expansion program that'll be obsolete before they even start building.
Anyway. At least there's this thread. That's something. Hopefully it wont also be locked.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
If I'm wrong, and this technology does reach the general public, then we can purchase the e-Cats at that time. This way, we can ensure we do not participate or risk the chance of perpetuating a great and potential fraud.
Gravock
Quote from: neptune on February 17, 2012, 11:49:41 AM
The time draws ever nearer when speculation will be replaced by facts , on e way or the other . I believe Cold Fusion to be real , if for no other reason that it has been verified in many places at different times . In the meantime , it would be nice if we could treat each other with love and respect .
Master, how much heat do You want achieve from "The
signature of the gamma radiation that has been detected is said to be 511 keV"???
Our DRJ 200 and 600 series were 2006 built and hidden in secrecy till 2010 year, only to see effects of its impact on crank mentality of jew-o-catholics.
Its energy of free tachyons , known also as free gravitons (antigravity), and also neutrino, is on level of 10^24 eV (Yottaelectronovolts).
Please compare this figure with LHC makes 10^14.
How You Master want to heat anything with 511 keV???
@Everyone:
Will Dick keep his $1 million dollars? I'm still a little puzzled why Dick Smith didn't just purchase one of the 1 MW units from Rossi. Then he would not only be in possession of solid proof (one way or the other), but he would also be able to pick any experts of his choosing for testing as Rossi assures that all prospective customers of the 1 MW units can have their own personnel verify the technology before taking delivery (as was done for the U.S. Navy - I mean - first customer).
Rossi has the right to run his business any way that he sees fit, however, if he has
early "serious" competition (which Defkalion certainly is) that is able to convince the
masses in a more friendly and open way, then he could lose in the market place big time.
Defkalion may be further away from a delivery date than Rossi but I'd be willing to wait for
one of their units if they are more convincing with their demonstrations as this will
instill greater confidence in their product(s).
So Rossi has a right to be rigid and play loosely with his slight lead time but the customer
is ALWAYS supposed to be king or they will be stolen from you. Even the people at McDonald's know this elementary principle. Rossi's fate lies in his own hands.
I still haven't seen ANYONE here attack NASA's assessment of LENR technology yet thus NASA goes on unrefuted. (BTW - Smart move there TK on your behalf. You are not willing to embarrass yourself to that extent, yet ;) ) I guess everyone here DID get the NASA memo afterall ;D
Regards,
Chess
Hi again, Chess - all,
My own money is still on Rossi. If he's trying to enrich himself - then so will anyone who goes into production. It's true. It's the ONLY real incentive to manufacturing anything - ever. And we're relying on a 'fast track' delivery system. And if he's looking to financial advantage from the sale of this. Then bully for him. I'll happily contribute. And I'd be glad if Defkalion also manage to sell. Because that may help to chase down prices. And I'm glad that they're quarreling. Else they'd be colluding and that would promote monopolies. Again. So. As far as I'm concerned the more that manufacture - the merrier. But just remember. We can learn from Rossi's E-cat. We certainly can't from Defkalion's. And I'm only really interested in learning something about a technology and then? Hopefully taking it further
I've just seen the length of this post. I'll be accused of 'writing too much'. I've therefore transposed the most of this to my blog. For those who don't mind my writing then here's the link.
http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2012/02/258-between-rock-and-hard-place.html (http://newlightondarkenergy.blogspot.com/2012/02/258-between-rock-and-hard-place.html).
By the way (BTW)? Did anyone pick up on the fact that Rossi want's his little 'package' returned after use? LOL. I'll put money on it that he's likely to recycle some nickel AND sell some copper and sundry trace elements. Maybe this is a good thing. Nothing wrong with recycling. Very much in the spirit of clean green.
And for those who are concerned about being at risk on an early order of the E-cat. Apparently its not a problem. It's not so much an 'order' as it is an 'intention to buy' which, contractually is not binding. I think he uses this to as a kind of required statistical market evaluation to do his production planning. Which is fair.
As ever. For those of us who want to keep our dependencies to a minimum - I think the best thing we can do is follow in Gwandau's footsteps. From where I sit, our best target reach is a complete DECOUPLING from that supply grid.
Kindest regards
Rosemary
added
Below is a quote by dajubester, which can be found in the comments on the PESN site I previously referenced.
Quote from: dajubester
....
........
Secondly: A factory to manufacture a million units "a year". What on earth is that? There are two hundred million houses and offices in the US alone who "would embrace this technology". When asked what does he project to manufacture in three or five years, he says that he can not put a number to that question. Instead he replies that it would be dictated by the market.
Well let me tell you that if you are selling a computer-sized gizmo for $400. or $500, that produces ten Kw power, with a ten-dollar price to recharge a cartridge that gives you six months service, that is eco friendly, etc, you'd better get you butt in gear to produce fifty million a year......'cause I want at least three of them. Something's not adding up.
Also, what's this comment at the end of the interview about all the risk, the uncertainty and the concern from whence come the investment money? He does not want to accept investment from a private family savings. He will only accept money from investment entities such as hedge funds, so as to, I quote: "If things go wrong and money is lost, no one will cry." This tells me that Rossi has no more confidence in this project than many including myself.
Lastly, where is the discussion on how Rossi is to keep the globalist PTB at bay when he risks to upset the status quo. No mention of concern for his safety. Many have disappeared taking on BP, ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell,and Monsanto. Where are the international bankers, the Rothschilds, G H W Bush, and Rockefellers in this equation? Is Allan hired to field these topics to assure that it is not brought up? The real tough questions have not been asked. Why is that? ??? ???
The military establishment will be first in line. Next in line will be federal, state, county, and local governments. Then the power companies. Big corporations will more than likely come before the general public. This is assuming of course the governments don't decide to heavily regulate this technology. Rossi has no control over this. It also must be UL approved. Then there will be groups slowing this process down in the courts while they claim these nuclear reactions could never be safe. So much red-tape in trying to get this into the hands of the general public. Also, why bother to integrate this technology into Power Plants if the general public will have access to the e-Cats. This is redundant and would never be profitable for the Power Plants. In addition to this, the government will want to pass laws on how to tax this technology based on the amount of power it delivered to you.
On top of that, a production of 1 million units per year is miniscule compared to the general public. There are two hundred million houses and offices in the US alone who "would embrace this technology". At this rate, It would take 200 years just supply the U.S. Sure, there may be other production lines added down the road, but it takes time to get these facilities built, money raised, obtaining the necessary licenses, contracts negotiated, bottle-necks in the production lines worked out, employees trained and up to speed, etc.
Rossi is even concerned about all the risk, the uncertainty and the concern from whence come the investment money? He does not want to accept investment from a private family savings. He will only accept money from investment entities such as hedge funds, so as to, I quote:
"If things go wrong and money is lost, no one will cry."Dick Smith can't just purchase one of the 1 MW units from Rossi, if Rossi won't sell one to him. Why would Rossi sell him a device which he could back engineer and give to the general public before he has the opportunity to fulfill the orders for the first in line customers?
I suggest to start building now instead of waiting for this to come to you, because it could be 10+ years before the first e-Cat is sold to the general public, assuming of course it's allowed to become available to us. And then, an additional 20+ years before the ecat's even begin to make a dent in the world's total population. Then we must ask ourselves why this isn't making it into the mainstream media outlets. This appears to be a big red flag.
Gravock
I agree with you Gravock. But I'm not sure how far we can take this without the 'secret sauce'. There's the impression that there's an active catalyst that is REQUIRED. Else the system does not work. Which means that we'd need to uncover this ingredient - or wait for this to come out. Which will absolutely be not later than the sale of that first unit.
I do not think that there's any expected 'hold up' to the production of those heater systems. Rossi's done his homework. But they're not going to make us grid free. It'll only reduce the cost of heating your houses during winter. So. Again. I absolutely agree with you. The ideal is to press on with the systematic unfolding - if possible - of Rossi's recipe. And I also think that this is related to the pre-heating of that 'mix'. He keeps hinting at this. In fact he specifically referenced Coulomb's Law. Which is intriguing. Because, that, in turn is related to our electromagnetic interaction which IS a weak interaction. No expected toxic emissions. The surprise is that this is more than enough to transmute elements. The assumption has always been that this transmutation requires the kind of 'hot' that's the exclusive property of exploding stars. So. What does he mean by this reference? I'd say that perhaps he's got some iron in that mix to allow for an inductive process to initialise the interaction? Something like that? Not sure. Nor have I any way of proving this. I'm not even an electrical engineer - let alone a chemist. But nor am I that sure that the 'resonance' comes into this - except possibly in that initialisation process. We're dealing with what is described, in Rossi's registered name for the E-Cat - 'A NEW KIND OF FIRE'. Which certainly DOES intrigue me. Because that sort of has echoes of something that I'm rather obsessed with.
In any event. I absolutely, entirely, without qualification - agree. We really do need to work on that rather elusive 'flavour' that Rossi gets from his own application of so called 'cold fusion'. But I, personally, would not know where to begin. My best bet is that we wait to see when those units are manufactured. I respect the fact that he won't allow individual investment. Quite apart from everything else - his detractors could use just this as an excuse to ENTIRELY close down his operation. And that he's building the first factory - looking for a site to the second - is proof that there's plenty of money behind this. And investors - even hedge fund investors - don't part with their money idly. In fact - that there is that much investment, is proof positive that the E-cat works.
But back to your point. We really, really need to find out how this works. Because then I'm absolutely satisfied that our purchase of the E-cat and the building of our own - will be our option to choose. And that's where we need to be if we want to be rid of monopolistic control. Actually - I'll go further. I am reasonably satisfied that the dynamic participation of all of us in this forums - is a reflection of that need. I think we want to be shot of the apron strings that are still tying us to our nanny states. And we sure as hell are well able to decide our own destinies. Long over due that we get that chance. Apart form obvious advantages it'll put us all in a position to control the price of living. Which thus far has NOT been something we could even think of controlling. That's been the right of Governments and monopolists. And we've all had to pick up the tab. Like a whole bunch of mindless worker ants.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
added
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 18, 2012, 03:27:01 AM
I agree with your Gravock. But I'm not sure how far we can take this without the 'secret sauce'. There's the impression that there's an active catalyst that is REQUIRED. Else the system does not work. Which means that we'd need to uncover this ingredient - or wait for this to come out. Which will absolutely be not later than the sale of that first unit.
I assure you, we can take this all the way in a relatively short period of time if we start experimenting and building now. I challenge anyone to take me up on this. I know Rossi's catalyst or 'secret sauce' relates to elements and not to certain processes, but this 'secret sauce' isn't as critical as the very propitiatory RF Generator he refers to. Rossi's claims that it won't work without the catalyst is just a smoke screen to steer people away from the RF Generator. I am almost nearly 100% certain Rossi's RF Generator is based around Dr. Stiffler's Spatial Energy Coherence device, which is a very propitiatory RF Generator related to Znidarsic's quantum transitional speed. The main ingredients for the catalysts are already known. We know there's at least nickel and hydrogen. Lead, aluminum, copper, and water would be a good place to start. I would definitely throw some bucky balls into the sauce. I believe the ingredients for the 'secret sauce' can be found relatively easy through a
little experimentation and research. This technology isn't that far from our reach. Trust me on this
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 18, 2012, 03:47:48 AM
I assure you, we can take this all the way in a relatively short period of time if we start experimenting and building now. I challenge anyone to take me up on this. I know Rossi's catalyst or 'secret sauce' relates to elements and not to certain processes, but this 'secret sauce' isn't as critical as the very propitiatory RF Generator he refers to. I am almost nearly 100% certain Rossi's RF Generator is based around Dr. Stiffler's Spatial Energy Coherence device, which is a very propitiatory RF Generator related to Znidarsic's quantum transitional speed. The main ingredients for the catalysts are already known. We know there's at least nickel and hydrogen. Lead, aluminum, and water I strongly suspect also. I would definitely throw some bucky balls into the sauce. I believe the ingredients for the 'secret sauce' can be found relatively easy through a little experimentation and research. This technology isn't that far from our reach. Trust me on this
Gravock
Then count me in. And I think that Chess would also be more than interested. Nor is he a beginner at this. Where does one start? A new thread? Or is it still appropriate here? And fortunately I am enough of a beginner to need the MOST SIMPLE of INSTRUCTIONS. That way there will be no preclusions - based on - prior lack of knowledge of any of our members.
So. How about it? Gravock - Chess - all?
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 18, 2012, 03:52:51 AM
Then count me in. And I think that Chess would also be more than interested. Nor is he a beginner at this. Where does one start? A new thread? Or is it still appropriate here? And fortunately I am enough of a beginner to need the MOST SIMPLE of INSTRUCTIONS. That way there will be no preclusions - based on - prior lack of knowledge of any of our members.
So. How about it? Gravock - Chess - all?
Rosemary
@All,
I'm all in. The more people involved, the better. There's power in numbers. I've already contacted Znidarsic with critical information regarding LENR. Let's see if he responds. Either way, we can do this, with or without Znidarsic. Dr. Stiffler is now aware of the high probability that Rossi's RF Generator is based around his SEC. We already know an aluminum mass amplifies the effect in the SEC. I can't share everything in a single post. I'll start a new thread, but I'm not sure which forum I would like it hosted on. I'll let everyone know what I decide. In the mean time, I would highly recommend anyone who is serious about this to study Dr. Stiffler's SEC device along with studying the work of Frank Znidarsic and to
diligently study the publication titled, "The secret of the Electron-Positron pair v2.0 (http://www.ioannisxydous.gr/SEPPv2.pdf)", by Ioannis Xydous. And don't let the math equations scare you away. Xydous does an excellent job in explaining the equations. IMO, his paper is a true masterpiece. Rossi definitely read the paper by Xydous. This may take a little time and effort, but it would be extremely helpful if everyone is on the same page. This will be helpful, but not absolutely necessary. I'll be working on getting all of this together. And Rosemary, thanks for having a little faith in what I'm saying.
Thanks,
Gravock
Gravock,
It's absolutely NOT required that I participate. But I assure you that is is the ONLY forum where I am not YET banned. And if TK manages his usual - then that's en route.
But for now, IF I'm to be included - then there are no other options. No other forums. This is the only place that I can still 'talk' other than on my blog. For some reason - that ENTIRELY eludes me - it seems that forum owners are anxious to both discredit me and to LOCK MY THREADS. One would think that I'm combative? Confrontational? LOL. I'm only a REALLY OLD WOMAN with very little knowledge and even less 'wherewithall' to 'think' with. Who could think that I could polarise all that opinion. Golly.
And for the record - I do not subscribe to anyone's 'solution'. Not even my own. If I have a theoretical preference it's for our string theorists. But I'm hoping that you'll allow the evidence to speak to the theory. That way we'll not be IMPOSING anything at all on our experiments. It's my considered opinion that we allow all options - while we actually determine what gives. I'm ONLY anxious to do all that I can to PROMOTE our decoupling from our grid suppliers. That's my SOLE purpose in engaging. Bit scarey guys. I've got a HUGE learning curve to cross. And no youth to give me the required energy. I'll have to find that in my stubborn nature. LOL.
:o 8)
Regards,
Rosemary
ADDED
Rosemary,
Wherever it may be hosted, I'll do my best to make sure you're not left out or anyone else who may be serious about this. I want the discussion itself to be heavily moderated, but not to the point where it could be suppressive in a negative way. However, I won't make any guarantees to you or anyone else about not being banned in the main discussion thread. Personal theories may not even be allowed unless it's based on experimental evidence, observations, or other research papers with experimental evidence which may be relevant. Don't worry.
Gravock
"The secret of the Electron-Positron pair", by Ioannis Xydous - A paper in which reveals the mechanism of the pair creation, the discovery of the Complete Coulomb Force, Complete Casimir Force, Strong Nuclear Force, Aether, Unified Field Force and ultimately, the topology of the Universe (Expanding Stellated Octahedron). A part of this work is inspired by Rhythmodynamics of Dr. Y.N.Ivanov, in particular what is written about the Aether and its properties (which made possible the work of Ioannis Xydous to be completed). The website of Xydous can be found here (http://www.ioannisxydous.gr/). I'll also try to have Xydous join us.
Rossi claims that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the nuclear process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you. The RF generator is the key and we already have it, thanks to Dr. Stiffler!
I'm going to try and link the entire open-source community together in a way which has never been done before. I have an idea on how to achieve this in a reasonably short period of time. Ok, I won't be posting much more in this thread.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 18, 2012, 01:20:20 PM
I'm going to try and link the entire open-source community together in a way which has never been done before. I have an idea on how to achieve this in a reasonably short period of time.
Gravock
This may not be the best course of action. I'll be withdrawing from any further participation. Please don't read too much into my quick decision to withdraw. The information on how to successfully build a working LENR device is already in the forums. With a little research, it can all be brought together. My sincerest apologies to all.
Good Luck,
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 18, 2012, 02:11:45 PM
This may not be the best course of action. I'll be withdrawing from any further participation. Please don't read too much into my decision to withdraw. The information on how to successfully build a working LENR device is already in the forums. With a little research, it can all be brought together. My sincerest apologies to all.
Good Luck,
Gravock
My dear Gravock,
Why are you apologising? It was an excellent idea. I'm rather sorry that we won't be seeing this through as I'm sure we'd all have learned much. And on my part it's a much required learning curve. Hopefully it won't stop the experimenting.
And really well done. It is always a pleasure to show the actual potential of these forums. Certainly with your kind of vision and energy. Absolutely nothing to apologise for. In fact I get the distinct impression that we've all rather let you down. Which means that the wrong person is shouldering the 'blame' if such it is. It has certainly enhanced my own growing respect for your aptitudes, abilities and strength of purpose. And indeed - for your reach. We need more of you. Clones might cut it.
The very kindest regards,
Rosie
Piantelli's LENR patent includes pulse generation as part of the process.
Rossi's patent however does not.
[edit]
Piantelli's device operates at sub bar pressure, while Rossi's process requires 20-30 Bar pressure.
Attached both patent (applications)
Your insights may be very valuable, Gravock
Quote from: teslaalset on February 18, 2012, 03:10:15 PM
If I'am not mistaken, Piantelli's LENR patent includes pulse generation as part of the process.
Rossi's patent however does not.
A photon which is oscillating in and out of an electric field will be continuously decreasing in frequency and momentum until the moment of entropy is reached. In each successive decrement in the frequency of the photon, then the charges (electrons and/or positrons) will gain acceleration and momentum. Once both charges obtain the necessary acceleration and momentum they will overcome the coulomb forces, collide and annihilate each other generating excess heat. It's a self-feeding process which requires no additional input once the process is initiated. This isn't pulse generation.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 18, 2012, 02:50:39 AM
Dick Smith can't just purchase one of the 1 MW units from Rossi, if Rossi won't sell one to him. Why would Rossi sell him a device which he could back engineer and give to the general public before he has the opportunity to fulfill the orders for the first in line customers?
Yes, Dick could purchase a 1 mw E-Cat but he would have to qualify first as this notice appears on Rossi's site
"Orders are accepted from all over the world and require a routine due-diligence process. Customers must comply with several criteria set by Leonardo Corporation in order to qualify for a purchase of a ECAT 1MW plant." If Dick qualified, you could see Dick buy one at a cost of currently, $1.5 million dollars per unit, out the door. Delivery time from date of purchase is 3 months (sooner than the home version crowd). It does come with a money back guarantee in which taking delivery hinges on a successful demonstration in which your own experts (not Rossi's) are satisfied.
So I would like to see Dick run, see Dick buy and see Dick make Rossi demonstrate his purchased 1 mw plant using only Dick's own people (personnel).
Now Dick is not the only one with millions of dollars willing to play with this technology. There is a billionaire who has donated $5.5 million dollars to cold fusion research. And he doesn't even need any proof that it works, first. This is a well informed man. Here is the link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/billionaire-sidney-kimmel-to-donate-5-5-to-fund-university-of-missouri-cold-fusion-research/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/billionaire-sidney-kimmel-to-donate-5-5-to-fund-university-of-missouri-cold-fusion-research/)
I'm a builder myself and I'm already deeply entrenched in the biggest build (over $25 thousand dollars along in this build which is nothing to some people) of my entire life. I must finish what I start first.
Now you suggested starting a thread on building the reactors but later cancelled the idea when you found out there were threads already doing this. So why not point people to the best thread so the builders among us can start experimenting and report back to the rest of us here?
Chess
Here's a video showing the dual charges in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGtPKBXkVQ&feature=plcp&context=C3e6f0bbUDOEgsToPDskLDYRU-THhmlfe1RrBxFobx). Notice there are two streams. One stream is made of negative charges (electrons) while the other stream is made of positive charges (positrons). The dual charges generate the same current, since they are of opposite charges and moving in opposite directions. In this video, the two streams appear to combine into one stream in some instances. They actually remain separated from each other at an extremely small distance by the repulsive coulomb force. There are both attractive and repulsive coulomb forces at play. If both charges gain enough acceleration and momentum they will overcome the repulsive coulomb force, collide and annihilate each other while generating excess heat.
Gravock
Quote from: chessnyt on February 18, 2012, 07:46:11 PM
Now you suggested starting a thread on building the reactors but later cancelled the idea when you found out there were threads already doing this. So why not point people to the best thread so the builders among us can start experimenting and report back to the rest of us here?
Chess
You're 100% wrong in why I cancelled the idea. I owe you no explanation in my decision. All of the information required to successfully build a working LENR is contained in this thread. Additional details can be found elsewhere. It's up to you and everyone else to decide what you will do with this information. You can ignore it, you can say it's wrong, you can say it's incomplete, or you can apply the information in your experiments. The ball is in your court now. What you decide to do is on you, and not me. All comments, either for or against what I have presented will be ignored. This is my last and final post in regards to LENR & SEC.
Take care,
Gravock
There is a lot of chit chat about Rossi and the E-Cat and everything inbetween.... All I am interested in is when the home version will be for sale (a date would be nice), how much exactly (including shipping to Australia)
We can all talk till the cows come home (not sure if anyone else uses this expression, might be Australian?)..... but who really cares? the real point is, when can I have one!!?!!
Quote from: gravityblock on February 18, 2012, 07:55:23 PM
Here's a video showing the dual charges in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGtPKBXkVQ&feature=plcp&context=C3e6f0bbUDOEgsToPDskLDYRU-THhmlfe1RrBxFobx). Notice there are two streams. One stream is made of negative charges (electrons) while the other stream is made of positive charges (positrons). The dual charges generate the same current, since they are of opposite charges and moving in opposite directions. In this video, the two streams appear to combine into one stream in some instances. They actually remain separated from each other at an extremely small distance by the repulsive coulomb force. There are both attractive and repulsive coulomb forces at play. If both charges gain enough acceleration and momentum they will overcome the repulsive coulomb force, collide and annihilate each other while generating excess heat.
Gravock
Dear Gravock,
This is exactly the sort of nonsense that mitigates against these forums as a platform for teaching anything at all. I'll reserve my opinion on those so called unification heroes of yours - now that I've had a chance to read them. Because I really don't want to be pulled into another public argument - euphemistically referred to as a 'debate'. But I will say this. I was sincerely impressed with the argument proposed by Frank Zdidarsic. However it's also inconclusive and partial. But nice.
Here's the link
http://www.scribd.com/doc/25456609/Frank-Znidarsic-Control-of-Natural-Forces-leading-to-Cold-Fusion-and-Anti-Gravity (http://www.scribd.com/doc/25456609/Frank-Znidarsic-Control-of-Natural-Forces-leading-to-Cold-Fusion-and-Anti-Gravity)
But really. Are you proposing that we can easily generate positrons? And are you then proposing that the bulb simply contains a 'mix' of electrons and positrons? And that the flux then somehow organises itself that the two flux fields adjust to each other? That they somehow comfortably flow past each other? Are you aware of how impossibly difficult it is to even hold positrons in any stable condition at all? They can barely be contained even when they're locked in an imposed magnetic field. LOL. If antimatter was that easily organised - we'd have been powering space shuttles with this from way back. Antimatter is considerably less manageable than you seem to think.
I think that what the video is showing us is that flux has magnetic properties. I've seen many such examples. That example most certainly DOES NOT contain positrons.
Gravock. I am constantly in awe of young minds and high energy. It's a heady mix. And I'm inclined to forgive a great deal of excessive zeal - even when it's compounded with an equally excessive arrogance and an entire want of diplomacy. But I assure you. You cannot seriously be proposing that the video sample shown here has anything at all to do with positrons? That's about as absurd as Poynty deciding that a battery can generate a negative current flow. This isn't a simple error in math. It's a profound departure from the standard model, and from fact.
You need to rethink your argument if this represents its foundations.
Golly :o
Regards,
Rosemary
EDITED.
Sorry guys. I wrote Wilczek. God knows why? He's arguments are ridiculous. But I like this one by Zdidarsic (spelling? something like that.)
And for perfect clarity - here's the link that Gravock gave us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGtPKBXkVQ&feature=plcp&context=C3e6f0bbUDOEgsToPDskLDYRU-THhmlfe1RrBxFobx
Quote from: Poit on February 19, 2012, 06:26:23 AM
There is a lot of chit chat about Rossi and the E-Cat and everything inbetween.... All I am interested in is when the home version will be for sale (a date would be nice), how much exactly (including shipping to Australia)
We can all talk till the cows come home (not sure if anyone else uses this expression, might be Australian?)..... but who really cares? the real point is, when can I have one!!?!!
Hi Poit. I agree. We all want to get our hands on a device. But one CERTAIN way of getting this to the market is to ensure that it's existence is known in the first instance. Because our conventional media channels are IGNORING this event with the kind of dedication that speaks to some kind of 'agenda' - conspiratorial or otherwise. And then we need to watch our backs. Because we don't also want to buy into another monopolistic stranglehold. I think we've all learned to be relatively 'circumspect' when it comes to anyone at all claiming to protect the best interests of the buyers over the sellers. And our best safeguard is to speak about this openly. Better yet - on the internet. And best of all on this kind of thread that Chess had the courage to initiate. Whatever we talk about - related to this - is a good thing. Because then - at least - the knowledge is OUT THERE. Otherwise it would have been a relatively easy exercise for competing interests to have silenced this and shut Rossi down - on whatever grounds they chose. That's what they managed with Fleishman and Pons. And sure as hell the conventional media channels would have co-operated. This is PRECISELY when the internet comes into its own.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: chessnyt on February 18, 2012, 07:46:11 PM
Now you suggested starting a thread on building the reactors but later cancelled the idea when you found out there were threads already doing this. So why not point people to the best thread so the builders among us can start experimenting and report back to the rest of us here?
Chess
Hi Chess,
I must admit I'd quite like to see some links. Since Gravock isn't likely to provide this - would you oblige us?
I had a shrewd idea you were doing your own thing here. Great stuff.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 19, 2012, 08:07:05 AM
Hi Chess,
I must admit I'd quite like to see some links. Since Gravock isn't likely to provide this - would you oblige us?
I had a shrewd idea you were doing your own thing here. Great stuff.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
@Rosemary:
I love all the great ideas coming forth from our discussion here. Grav made an enormous contribution by suggesting a thread dedicated to the builders as this forum is #1 when it comes to builders.
Because Grav chose to drop out (for whatever reasons I really don't know and he certainly owes no explanation for) I will pick up the ball and take 2 weeks to attempt to locate at least 3 threads in which forum builders are making the most progress. I can't promise anything except that I will give it my best shot.
My build is a very promising one and the Russians have just recently had their breakthrough as well in this exact same technology. I'm trying to keep this subject of mine limited to very few comments as this thread's subject matter is closer to market and thus serves EVERYONE who needs energy to get to work, power their houses and do their jobs. As you well know, the monopolists have raised their prices once again in an attempt to ruin the economy for a second time and then buy up all the failed businesses and properties on the cheap. It's a very well orchestrated scheme.
Warmest regards,
Chess
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 19, 2012, 07:41:52 AM
Dear Gravock,
This is exactly the sort of nonsense that mitigates against these forums as a platform for teaching anything at all. I'll reserve my opinion on those so called unification heroes of yours - now that I've had a chance to read them. Because I really don't want to be pulled into another public argument - euphemistically referred to as a 'debate'. But I will say this. I was sincerely impressed with the argument proposed by Frank Zdidarsic. However it's also inconclusive and partial. But nice.
Here's the link
http://www.scribd.com/doc/25456609/Frank-Znidarsic-Control-of-Natural-Forces-leading-to-Cold-Fusion-and-Anti-Gravity (http://www.scribd.com/doc/25456609/Frank-Znidarsic-Control-of-Natural-Forces-leading-to-Cold-Fusion-and-Anti-Gravity)
But really. Are you proposing that we can easily generate positrons? And are you then proposing that the bulb simply contains a 'mix' of electrons and positrons? And that the flux then somehow organises itself that the two flux fields adjust to each other? That they somehow comfortably flow past each other? Are you aware of how impossibly difficult it is to even hold positrons in any stable condition at all? They can barely be contained even when they're locked in an imposed magnetic field. LOL. If antimatter was that easily organised - we'd have been powering space shuttles with this from way back. Antimatter is considerably less manageable than you seem to think.
I think that what the video is showing us is that flux has magnetic properties. I've seen many such examples. That example most certainly DOES NOT contain positrons.
Gravock. I am constantly in awe of young minds and high energy. It's a heady mix. And I'm inclined to forgive a great deal of excessive zeal - even when it's compounded with an equally excessive arrogance and an entire want of diplomacy. But I assure you. You cannot seriously be proposing that the video sample shown here has anything at all to do with positrons? That's about as absurd as Poynty deciding that a battery can generate a negative current flow. This isn't a simple error in math. It's a profound departure from the standard model, and from fact.
You need to rethink your argument if this represents its foundations.
Golly :o
Regards,
Rosemary
EDITED.
Sorry guys. I wrote Wilczek. God knows why? He's arguments are ridiculous. But I like this one by Zdidarsic (spelling? something like that.)
And for perfect clarity - here's the link that Gravock gave us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGtPKBXkVQ&feature=plcp&context=C3e6f0bbUDOEgsToPDskLDYRU-THhmlfe1RrBxFobx (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGtPKBXkVQ&feature=plcp&context=C3e6f0bbUDOEgsToPDskLDYRU-THhmlfe1RrBxFobx)
Rosemary,
I agree with you, it does sound absurd. You're actually arguing against yourself without realizing it. You say there are dual charges making up current flow. You call them "raw" charges instead of electrons. Call them whatever you may like, but it won't change what it is. We need to look at the electron and positron as being the same particle, a particle which has both a negative and a positive charge. Physics has separated the two, when they are actually one.
Now an electron/positron, as a wave form, is moved in an (anti)clockwise circle. In this spiraloid movement it has a discontinuous wave surface rather like a spiral spring. The movement itself is not discontinuous, but only appears so by virtue of its spiraling movement. It also shows a magnetic phenomenon
cancelling out the charge on one side which gives an observer the impression that the energy moves in jumps. Further, it is subject to the outcome of the difference of charge due to this magnetic effect,
as well as the result of its rotation. We can see this helical spiraloid movement of the particles in a cloud chamber.
If this particle has a clockwise movement, then the magnetic phenomenon cancels out the positive charge and we call it an electron. However, if the particle has a counter clockwise movement, then the negative charge is cancelled and it becomes what we know as a positron. If an electron moves to the left in a magnetic field, then a positron will move to the right in the same magnetic field. The two currents are running against each other. This is in agreement with Ed Leedskalnin (I'm not sure if this is the correct spelling, but I'm not taking the time to look it up). Since they're of opposite charges and moving in opposite directions, then they will produce the same current. If the opposite charges moved in the same direction in a magnetic field, then the current would be canceled.
Today Physics claims that the Electron-Positron pair may annihilate at any Kinetic Energy. The Electron as also the Positron must have an initial velocity of 0.62c and below this value, the pair cannot be annihilated, as can be seen in the below graph. In the video, the magnet helps to further separate the two streams at distances greater than the repulsive coulomb forces. When the magnet is positioned properly, then the stream of negative charges will be deflected towards the magnet (attraction), while the other stream of positive charges will be deflected away from the magnet (repulsion). This helps us to see how the two streams are separated. If the opposite pole of the magnet is used, then it will be vice-versa.
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
The egg has the form of a chicken. The chicken is in the egg. The two are one. One did not come before the other,
as the question wrongly implies. They came together, as one, and not separately. It's a bad question, because the question itself has separated the two when they actually came together and were one. This chicken and egg analogy also applies to the electron-positron pairs. They are one, and not separate. We need to ask the right questions in order to get the right answers. If not, then we are led down a path of paradoxes based on wrong assumptions. Questions based on wrong assumptions can create wrong answers which lead to paradoxes.
Where did most of the anti-matter in the universe go? According to Xydous, most of the anti-matter is either at the center of the universe as a white hole (anti-black hole) or it's at the outer edges of the universe. The rest of the anti-matter in the universe was captured by the aether. In the end, I know what I'm saying will be proven correct.
Gravock
Quote from: chessnyt on February 19, 2012, 10:49:22 AM
Because Grav chose to drop out (for whatever reasons I really don't know and he certainly owes no explanation for) I will pick up the ball and take 2 weeks to attempt to locate at least 3 threads in which forum builders are making the most progress. I can't promise anything except that I will give it my best shot.
Show me one thread where somebody is using Dr. Stiffler's SEC as a Radio Frequency generator for LENR's. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone is doing this. This, along with other critical and crucial information just isn't being applied by anyone as far as I am aware of. The most they will be able to achieve in the direction they are currently moving in, is pulse generation.
Gravock
gravock,
I read the "The secret of the Electron-Positron pair" by Ioannis Xydous, and found it very interesting.
His theory fits very nicely into my own view of the universe, were every known phenomenon, be it matter, light, electromagnetism or gravity,
is a wave interference response to an all encompassing single underlying field, or Aether if we want to use that old term.
If this is correct, there is nothing but the Aether, everything else is just a dynamic respons to the condition of this field.
Matter regarded as an inert piece of driftwood, being here just by its own means, is a stone-age point of view that we all have to discard if we are going to succeed.
As Ioannis Xydous puts it: "Space-Time is filled with the Aether and the Mass and Energy which appear in the material world are manifestations of Aether compression".
And if matter is merely standing waves, or as Ioannis Xydous prefer to call it, "manifestations of Aether compression", which is just different words
for the same phenomenon, then we will be able to access and influence any level of physical manifestation, given the right wave tool.
And we need a wave tool to overcome the Coloumb forces, since the key to everything in universe is wave oriented.
But since there is no RF-generator capable of producing wave lengths far down in the Planck scale, or a frequency high enough to come close to the values of
Aether compression, we are left with the secondary road, which is the one I am sure that Andrea Rossi has taken, namely The Road of Resonances.
Resonace is the very tool that will reach all the way down to the area of interest in calling forth the positrons to act upon the nickel electrons.
Resonance is the only known link between different energy levels, and its there we should look.
So as far as I am concerned, by pressurizing a stainless steel tube with 50 ATM of Hydrogen, containing the nano-nickel powder, heating it to 400 degrees Celsius,
and exposing it to a wide range of RF parameters, changing wavelength in small steps and scanning each with the whole frequency range available, we are bound to succeed
sooner or later.
The RF generator would have to be integrated with the heater surrounding the reactor, and be able to generate up to 300 MHz frequencies.
These experiments will be extremely dangerous to perform without proper safety precautions, and the preparations of the steel tube has to be made in a hydrogen atmosphere.
Another ingredient, that NASA have mentioned, is catalytic carbon. Maybe this is one of the parameters Andrea Rossi is hiding.
Just the fact that 58 g nickel, theoretically will generate the same amount of energy obtained by burning about 30,000 tons of oil makes one inspired to
experiment with this reaction.
A local friend of me has already started to construct a safe hydrogen work box with gloves,so I don't seem to have any choice but participate in the experiment.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on February 19, 2012, 01:12:54 PM
gravock,
The RF generator would have to be integrated with the heater surrounding the reactor, and be able to generate up to 300 MHz frequencies.
Dr. Stiffler's SEC generates a broadband of frequencies from 500 - 1 Mhz in decrements of 1.094 Mhz when properly tuned. The 1094000 hertz (1.094 Mhz) is related to Znidarsics quantum transitional velocity of 1094000 m/s.
How does the SEC achieve this? A photon oscillating in/out or inside of an electric field will be continuously decreasing in frequency and momentum until the moment of entropy is reached (In the SEC, the frequencies will decrement from 500 Mhz down to 1 Mhz in multiples of 1.094 Mhz). We don't need it to go all the way to entropy. We just need to decrease the frequency of the photons enough so the electrons-positrons will gain enough acceleration and momentum to overcome the repulsive coulomb forces. A broadband of frequencies from 500 Mhz - 1 Mhz is more than efficient for our purposes. In each successive decrement in the frequency of the photon, then the charges (electrons and/or positrons) will gain acceleration and momentum. When the Electron as also the Positron accelerate to an initial velocity of 0.62c the pair will be annihilated generating excess heat. The E/M wave's velocity decreases in jumps of 1,094,000 m/s while it's frequency will also decrement in jumps of 1,094,000 hertz. Once the electrons-positrons obtain the necessary acceleration and momentum they will overcome the coulomb forces, collide and annihilate each other generating excess heat. It's a self-feeding process which requires no additional input once the process is initiated.
Gravock.
@ Gwandau and Loner, and anyone else who is studying the paper by Xydous.
I truly appreciate you taking the time to read and properly understand this publication with an open-mind. You'll be the first ones to grasp what I'm trying to relate to everyone. It's not even necessary to grasp everything in his paper. Understanding a few key things is all that is required. You're very close Gwandau.
Gravock
Gravock, I 'm not qualified to comment. Nor am I about to try and change your opinion. Our own thesis assumes that the electron - in fact all stable particles - are composites of this fundamental 'charged' magnetic dipole. We are able to prove this as we can then also reconcile the mass/size ratio of the proton to the electron. And that through nothing more than pure dialectic reasoning. Not an equation in sight. Nothing more than applied logic. And that ratio - that 1836 x > than the electron? That's yet another question that has been shelved by our learned and revered - for want of any reasonable or foundational argument.
Clearly you have never read our paper. Which is extraordinary considering that you're so ready to claim that we're wrong. Or even that you're right. Quite apart from which, being right or wrong is, in any event, entirely irrelevant. Science matters WAY too much to be the victim of such absurd conceits and pretensions. The thought of it. That anyone at all could claim any personal or ultimate 'justification'. Newton was NOT right. Einstein was NOT right. They were all only on a quest to get nearer to some HIDDEN truth in nature. And no-one can claim to have discovered the forces. We've no idea what causes them. All we know, is how to quantify them. And that only partially. The argument in support of Quantum electrodynamics is based on a kind of statistical 'fudging' qualified by Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. And guess what? It's as uncertain today as it was then. General Relativity is mostly and only used by our Astrophysicists. It has no relevance to Nuclear Physics. And General Relatively falls on its knees when it tries to reconcile Gravity. And our nuclear physicists face a parade of anomalies that are centered precisely in those particle accelerators where matter appears to manifest in a boundless variety. And, I might add, in absolute defiance of rule that energy cannot be created but only 'transferred'. There is ample and BEWILDERING evidence that matter can multiply - out of mind. Our world of science has very little in it that's absolute.
The ONLY thing that matters is that we keep asking questions. It's positively ABSURD to try and say which branch is right and which branch is wrong. They're all part of the whole. Branches of a tree of knowledge. And we're still clinging to that trunk, We can barely see the branches - for want of some light. It is an unfortunate truth that our modern day scientists assume that there is some kind of 'glory' associated with a what they all hope will be their discovery. I'm particularly pleased to report that we've discovered nothing. Certainly nothing that deviates from the standard model. And we can say that with impunity. Frankly I'm not sure that there is such a thing as standard model. Except - as is here shown - as a conglomerate of partial theory.
What I do know is that LENR has not been resolved. And if the required catalyst also required RF frequencies - then we'll learn about this in due course. But that's NOT the whole of the answer. We still have to argue the fact that elements can transmute without the heat associated with super novas. My own view is that it's possibly better to ask. To keep asking questions. Not to keep proposing that you or indeed anyone - has all the answers. Because not you nor anybody DOES have all the answers. Else - we'll actually never get to the point where we can actually learn anything at all. We'll spend our lives picking out what we think may be the best answer and taking sides. And history has taught us NOTHING if not that there are no ready made answers. And I modestly propose that we should be applying our own logic to our own questions. Else how will be learn anything at all? We'll only learn what others think. Then we may as well throw away our brains and let some select few do all our thinking for us.
Anyway. That's my tuppence worth.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 01:29:36 PM
Dr. Stiffler's SEC generates a broadband of frequencies from 500 - 1 Mhz in decrements of 1.094 Mhz when properly tuned. The 1094000 hertz (1.094 Mhz) is related to Znidarsics quantum transitional velocity of 1094000 m/s.
How does the SEC achieve this? A photon oscillating in/out or inside of an electric field will be continuously decreasing in frequency and momentum until the moment of entropy is reached (In the SEC, the frequencies will decrement from 500 Mhz down to 1 Mhz in multiples of 1.094 Mhz). We don't need it to go all the way to entropy. We just need to decrease the frequency of the photons enough so the electrons-positrons will gain enough acceleration and momentum to overcome the repulsive coulomb forces. A broadband of frequencies from 500 Mhz - 1 Mhz is more than efficient for our purposes. In each successive decrement in the frequency of the photon, then the charges (electrons and/or positrons) will gain acceleration and momentum. When the Electron as also the Positron accelerate to an initial velocity of 0.62c the pair will be annihilated generating excess heat. The E/M wave's velocity decreases in jumps of 1,094,000 m/s while it's frequency will also decrement in jumps of 1,094,000 hertz. Once the electrons-positrons obtain the necessary acceleration and momentum they will overcome the coulomb forces, collide and annihilate each other generating excess heat. It's a self-feeding process which requires no additional input once the process is initiated.
Gravock.
Gravock - this is getting a little bit absurd. IF the electrons and positrons - as you put - continually annihilate then we would be left with a residue of highly unstable matter. What in heaven's name are you trying to say here? That the particles in the atoms are somehow depleting and we're thereby accessing this heat? And this is done by an injection of photons? The thing about LENR - the PUZZLE - is that the protons themselves - the actual nucleus of the atom is reorganised into different elements. There is an evident variation to the the neutron number. There is absolutely NO variation to the electron nor the proton number. Are you even aware of this? One of the proposals made is that the neutron - that particle that somehow binds the protons and overcomes their repulsive force - is also somehow imposed from outside the atom. But you most certainly do not have a variation between the electron - proton count. We're left with stable elements. That's the surprise. To the best of my knowledge - the only thing that - historically - has managed to explain this 'changing' of the elements from one thing to another - is the application of heat that is even stronger than our sun's CORE. THAT 'hot' - at the very center of our sun - can only manage to take hydrogen to helium. Rossi is claiming a variety of elements including copper and sundry trace numbers - as a result of an applied heat that is barely above what's required to take water to boil.
WHAT are you thinking?
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 19, 2012, 03:01:39 PM
Gravock - this is getting a little bit absurd. IF the electrons and positrons - as you put - continually annihilate then we would be left with a residue of highly unstable matter. What in heaven's name are you trying to say here? That the particles in the atoms are somehow depleting and we're thereby accessing this heat? And this is done by an injection of photons? The thing about LENR - the PUZZLE - is that the protons themselves - the actual nucleus of the atom is reorganised into different elements. There is an evident variation to the the neutron number. There is absolutely NO variation to the electron nor the proton number. Are you even aware of this? One of the proposals made is that the neutron - that particle that somehow binds the protons and overcomes their repulsive force - is also somehow imposed from outside the atom. But you most certainly do not have a variation between the electron - proton count. We're left with stable elements. That's the surprise. To the best of my knowledge - the only thing that - historically - has managed to explain this 'changing' of the elements from one thing to another - is the application of heat that is even stronger than our sun's CORE. THAT 'hot' - at the very center of our sun - can only manage to take hydrogen to helium. Rossi is claiming a variety of elements including copper and sundry trace numbers - as a result of an applied heat that is barely above what's required to take water to boil.
WHAT are you thinking?
Rosemary
Even Rossi himself has stated there is matter/anti-matter annihilation in his e-Cat. Shut the F... Up if you don't care to understand it! You don't know what your saying. And I don't care if this gets me banned. This is too important to let you or anyone else try to throw a monkey wrench into the elementary truths of the universe. What applies to the photons and electron-positrons with the electromagnetic force, is also very similar and applies to the neutrons and W-Z particles with the weak nuclear force. Neutrons have a negative and positive charge, just like the electron-positron particle. Neutrons are only stable inside of atoms. Neutrons in a stable atom don't have the sprialoid movement as the electron-positron which cancels out the charge on one side as the result of it's rotation and movement through the aether, thus the neutrons net charge is neutral or 0. However, this weak nuclear interaction can change a neutron into a proton, etc. changing it into a different element by cancelling out one of the neutron's charges. The W and Z particles when decrementing in frequency, just like the photon when decrementing in frequency will impart acceleration and momentum to the electron-positron, will also impart acceleration and momentum to the neutron-proton. This gives it movement through the aether allowing the charge on one side to be cancelled. If the negative charge of a neutron is cancelled, then it becomes a proton. Vice-versa if it has the opposite rotation of movement. There is no unstable matter produced if the neutrons-protons don't escape from the atom during this process.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 03:17:48 PM
Even Rossi himself has stated there is matter/anti-matter annihilation in his e-Cat. Shut the F... Up if you don't care to understand it! You don't know what your saying. And I don't care if this gets me banned. This is too important to let you or anyone else try to throw a monkey wrench into the elementary truths of the universe.
My dear Gravock. If this is the result of the creation and then the annihilation of matter and anti-matter then we have not get the required level of heat in that interaction. I had no idea that Rossi is claiming this. If he is - then I'm wrong. Because he certainly knows knows what he's doing. He's not a amateur. And nor are his colleagues. But I think I'd like to see this claim in writing - somewhere.
Here's what we know. Again. When that interaction is exhausted there's evidence of new elements and varying isotopes. And that means that the only thing that has changed is the atom's neutron count. If there was not this consistent relationship between the electron and the proton then we would also NOT not have an identifiable element. If there's a marginal variation to the electron count then it would be evident in the valence condition of the atom. And I've not heard that this is evident. Anywhere. But nor do I know everything. I'm only telling you within the limits of what I've read about this.
I agree. The subject is too important to get it wrong. And Gravock. Again. One does not win an argument by denial. That way we none of us learn anything.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 19, 2012, 03:55:52 PM
My dear Gravock. If this is the result of the creation and then the annihilation of matter and anti-matter then we have not get the required level of heat in that interaction. I had no idea that Rossi is claiming this. If he is - then I'm wrong. Because he certainly knows knows what he's doing. He's not a amateur. And nor are his colleagues. But I think I'd like to see this claim in writing - somewhere.
Unbelievable. You want to see Rossi's claim in writing somewhere? I've already provided you with this in an article found on PESN titled, "Momentous Breakthroughs Announced During Anniversary E-Cat Interview (http://pesn.com/2012/01/14/9602012_Momentous_Breakthroughs_Announced_During_Anniversary_E-Cat_Interview/)". Maybe you should re-read the article. If not, then you can look at the below quote as found on PESN. Are you even paying attention?
Quote from: PESN
GAMMA RADIATION AND ANTI-MATTER -- The E-Cat technology produces low energy gamma radiation that is converted into heat inside of the reactor. The signature of the gamma radiation that has been detected is said to be 511 keV at 180 degrees. These gamma rays are thought to be produced when electrons impact positrons and annihilate each other. So, if we understand correctly, Rossi theorizes that inside of the E-Cat there are anti-matter/matter annihilation taking place, releasing energy. However, he stated this is just a side effect of what really takes place, which he has previously indicated is nuclear fusion.
Gravock, I need quite a bit more time to digest the essentials you are highlighting here (with many thanks for doing that!).
To bypass my delayed understanding, do you think direct conversion into electrical current instead of heat is feasible with similar processes like using Ni+H2?
Quote from: PESNGAMMA RADIATION AND ANTI-MATTER -- The E-Cat technology produces low energy gamma radiation that is converted into heat inside of the reactor. The signature of the gamma radiation that has been detected is said to be 511 keV at 180 degrees. These gamma rays are thought to be produced when electrons impact positrons and annihilate each other. So, if we understand correctly, Rossi theorizes that inside of the E-Cat there are anti-matter/matter annihilation taking place, releasing energy. However, he stated this is just a side effect of what really takes place, which he has previously indicated is nuclear fusion.
That's also what I read. I see nothing here that states that we are relying on an electron/positron interaction to account for LENR. There is only the proposal that it may partially account for this interaction IF this is happening. And IF this is to be advanced as an explanation of heat signatures of the LENR interaction - then it would also need to correspond to the post interaction waste. And we have been assured that there are no unstable elements. Which implies that those elements have a consistent ratio between their proton and electron count.
What you are advancing is the notion that there is an entire reliance on the manufacture of positrons - that then interact with electrons - to account for the whole of the anomalous heat signatures related to LENR. Not only is this still speculative electron/positron proposal simply theorised - but nor does it account for the indisputable evidence of the transmutation of elements that can only be attributed to a nuclear interaction. And that there are these resulting elements requires a 'conservation' of the electrons and the protons from the original elements.
Gravock, I'm telling you what I think. Or as I understand this. And I'm only saying this in the first instance - because you're trying to advance a theory on LENR. And I think it's much more important that we look at the whole picture. Otherwise we'll be inclined to force the facts to fit the theory. And I think we've had enough of that to date - to know better to do it again.
Just my opinion.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: teslaalset on February 19, 2012, 04:27:45 PM
Gravock, I need quite a bit more time to digest the essentials you are highlighting here (with many thanks for doing that!).
To bypass my delayed understanding, do you think direct conversion into electrical current instead of heat is feasible with similar processes like using Ni+H2?
I believe LENR isn't needed to accomplish this. Dr. Stiffler's SEC is doing this by itself at lower energies to light many LED's. An aluminum mass amplifies the effect. However, it would be extremely dangerous to operate the SEC at higher energy levels. Operating at higher energy levels in the SEC will more than likely generate high level gamma radiation instead of the low level gamma radiation generated in the e-Cat, which is mostly confined inside the atoms and the rest (an extremely small amount) is contained inside the reactor. Also, an e-Cat operating at higher energies, will need more shielding. Nuclear Power Plants have more shielding, so they could operate at the higher energy levels without the dangers. I believe the e-Cats will stay small, while chaining many small e-Cats together for higher energy output. The SEC can also operate at lower energies with many SEC's chained together for higher energy output without the dangers of high level gamma radiation if the necessary precautions are taken.
Gravock
Tomorrow, I'll be going out of town for personal reasons. I'm not sure when I'll be back. Hopefully I'll only be gone for a few days.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 04:50:06 PM
I believe LENR isn't needed to accomplish this. Dr. Stiffler's SEC is doing this by itself at lower energies to light many LED's. An aluminum mass amplifies the effect. However, it would be extremely dangerous to operate the SEC at higher energy levels. Operating at higher energy levels in the SEC will more than likely generate high level gamma radiation instead of the low level gamma radiation generated in the e-Cat, which is mostly confined inside the atoms and the rest (an extremely small amount) is contained inside the reactor. Also, an e-Cat operating at higher energies, will need more shielding. Nuclear Power Plants have more shielding, so they could operate at the higher energy levels without the dangers. I believe the e-Cats will stay small, while chaining many small e-Cats together for higher energy output. The SEC can also operate at lower energies with many SEC's chained together for higher energy output without the dangers of high level gamma radiation if the necessary precautions are taken.
Gravock
If I may again put in my tuppence worth. The heat that results from your nuclear reactors is applied to water to generate steam which then turns the turbines - those motors that then generate the power for our grid supplies. In the same way the heat applied to Rossi's E-Cat generates steam that can, optionally, be applied to motors or generators to generate electricity to run our appliances directly in our houses. There are two things preventing this. The one is to get enough 'oomph' to power all our electrical appliances through a single E-cat. It would need to be more substantial than the one proposed to simply heat our homes. The other is that when he gets to this 'scale' of application he competes with our utility suppliers. And he'll be drowned out in bureaucratic licenses and 'authorizations' - as Rossi puts it - that he'll be tied up in years of paper work before he even starts to manufacture.
Which is why Chess and Gwandau proposed that they first find out EXACTLY how to apply these smaller versions to their own motors - that they can circumvent all that 'control'. Because in the final analysis - no legislation will wash - if the entire population simply apply their own solutions - as best they can and just make better use of all that steam. And it seems that 4 E-cat units would, possibly, then supply all their needs. And I'm reasonably certain that Rossi's well aware of this.
The trick is to either buy more than 1 E-cat. Or hopefully, before this gets on stream - that the likes of Chess and all our other ace experimentalists - learn to substitute the E-cat in the first instance. Either option is a really good option. LOL. Just as long as it takes us away from our grid suppliers. They're as toxic as their nuclear energy.
And I hope it's clear that IF Rossi's technolgy were to replace our nuclear power stations - which is entirely feasible - that it would also manage this without any nuclear waste at all. In other words LENR applications have NO TOXIC WASTE MATERIAL. It's entirely green - at whatever scale. It most certainly would be cheaper than the material that is typically used in these reactors. And it would not require any expensive shielding. And it would never represent a risk should there be some kind of natural catastrophe.
Again, regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: teslaalset on February 19, 2012, 04:27:45 PM
To bypass my delayed understanding, do you think direct conversion into electrical current instead of heat is feasible with similar processes like using Ni+H2?
Yes, Here's Dr. Stiffler's Youtube Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/StifflerDr/videos).
Gravock
Let me make this clear.
The SEC isn't LENR. The SEC is using the photon's momentum to impart acceleration to the electron-positron. If the electron-positron accelerates to the minimal velocity of .62C, then there will be excess heat generated. If the electron-positron's velocity is maintained below .62C, which I believe it is in the SEC, then no excess heat is generated. As the electron-positron's are being accelerated to a higher velocity they will also be emitting photons at higher frequencies, thus the process repeats and is self-feeding for the electromagnetic force with the correct configuration, such as the SEC.
Now, the SEC or a similar Radio Frequency Generator is used to initiate the LENR's by accelerating the electron-positrons at or above the critical value of .62C which generates excess heat. Rossi's e-Cat is pre-heated first, which helps to overcome the critical value of .62C at lower RF energies so it can be done in a safe manner without the higher frequency electromagnetic radiation normally required. This excess heat generated will need to be stored to maintain the weak nuclear reactions. This is where the catalyst comes into play. One of the catalyst's main role is to maintain and store this excess heat. Once this occurs, then the weak nuclear force comes into play. A similar process will occur with the W-Z particles and weak nuclear force as it did with the electron-positron particles and electromagnetic force.
When the W-Z particles (similar to photons, but much heavier) decrement in frequency, then this imparts acceleration and momentum to the neutrons-protons. The movement of the neutrons-protons will be a helical motion which cancels the charge on one side according to it's rotation direction. If a neutron is changed into a proton, then it will be displaced by the coulomb forces and change it's configuration to a proton. If a proton is changed into a neutron, then it will be displaced by the coulomb forces and change it's configuration to that of a neutron . This causes a transmutation in the elements (the second main role for the catalyst is a neutron-proton source, and without it the weak nuclear reactions won't occur and repeat itself). I would seriously take a look at lead and/or other heavy elements which are safe along with aluminum. I'm using this analogy because the weak nuclear force is similar to the electromagnetic force in many ways, but in reality an up quark will be flipped to a down quark, or vice-versa, changing it from a neutron to a proton or a proton into a neutron. The neutrons-protons aren't actually accelerated, but one of the 3 quarks which make up the neutrons-protons are flipped when enough momentum is imparted to it. Also, when a neutron or proton changes into the other, it will emit W or Z particles to repeat the process. As long as the heat is stored and maintained, then the process is self-feeding for the weak nuclear reactions also. Then we could take this a step further and apply it to the strong nuclear force, which I believe would be anti-gravity. Gravity is the mismatch in frequencies.
Gravock
I added additional information in regards to the other main role of the catalyst, lol. I've been editing my previous post for quite some time for better clarity. I think the final revision has been made to it.
Thanks,
Gravock
And let me make this clear...
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PM
Let me make this clear. The SEC isn't LENR. The SEC is using the photon's momentum to impart acceleration to the electron-positron. If the electron-positron accelerates to the minimal velocity of .62C, then there will be excess heat generated. If the electron-positron's velocity is maintained below .62C, which I believe it is in the SEC, then no excess heat is generated. As the electron-positron's are being accelerated to a higher velocity they will also be emitting photons at higher frequencies, thus the process repeats and is self-feeding for the electromagnetic force with the correct configuration, such as the SEC.
In support of an electron-positron interaction there must be the required decay or annihilation of both particles. IF there is this decay then that, in turn, must result in the generation of heat AND an emission of photons. The resulting radiation would - at it's least - be measurable. What's more. It would also result in the required alteration to the valence condition of the elements in that core material. It would do NOTHING to alter it's nuclear properties.
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMNow, the SEC or a similar Radio Frequency Generator is used to initiate the LENR's by accelerating the electron-positrons at or above the critical value of .62C which generates excess heat.
This is purely SPECULATIVE. THE existence of any electron-positron's is PURELY SPECULATIVE. Certainly at this stage.
While I'm delighted to see some editing here, it's still not enough...
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMRossi's e-Cat is pre-heated first, which helps to overcome the critical value of .62C at lower RF energies so it can be done in a safe manner without the higher frequency electromagnetic radiation normally required.
Good to see that you've dropped that earlier RF requirement. Not so good is this that follows...
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMThis excess heat generated will need to be stored to maintain the weak nuclear reactions.
An applied electric current is all that's required to sustain a weak nuclear reaction. And a weak nuclear reaction IS an electromagnetic interaction - such as we depend on every time we run an electric appliance.
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMThis is where the catalyst comes into play. One of the catalyst's main role is to maintain and store this excess heat.
IF it is required to maintain and store extra heat then it would NOT be described as a catalyst. By definition a catalyst is required to INITIATE a process. Not to continue it. Else it would be described as a hydrogen - nickel - 'catalyst' (whatever that is) process.
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMOnce this occurs, then the weak nuclear force comes into play.
The 'weak nuclear force' is associated with the electrical input. It has NOTHING to do with the nuclear process.
R.
more of the same/...
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMA similar process will occur with the W-Z particles and weak nuclear force as it did with the electron-positron particles and electromagnetic force. When the W-Z particles (similar to photons, but much heavier) decrement in frequency, then this imparts acceleration and momentum to the neutrons-protons. The movement of the neutrons-protons will be a helical motion which cancels the charge on one side according to it's rotation direction.
This is psychobabble. Utterly pretentious nonsense. It's meaningless.
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMIf a neutron is changed into a proton, then it will be displaced by the coulomb forces and change it's configuration to a proton. If a proton is changed into a neutron, then it will be displaced by the coulomb forces and change it's configuration to that of a neutron.
WHEN in the history of science generally - and particle physics SPECIFICALLY has there ever been any evidence of a proton 'changed' as you put it - to a neutron? Are you even aware of the reason that this CANNOT HAPPEN? Are you even aware of the absurdity of this proposal? And why?
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMThis causes a transmutation in the elements (the second main role for the catalyst is a neutron-proton source, and without it the weak nuclear reactions won't occur and repeat itself).
More unadulterated nonsense
Quote from: gravityblock on February 19, 2012, 06:16:42 PMI would seriously take a look at lead and/or other heavy elements which are safe along with aluminum. I'm using this analogy because the weak nuclear force is similar to the electromagnetic force in many ways, but in reality an up quark will be flipped to a down quark, or vice-versa, changing it from a neutron to a proton or a proton into a neutron. The neutrons-protons aren't actually accelerated, but one of the 3 quarks which make up the neutrons-protons are flipped when enough momentum is imparted to it. Also, when a neutron or proton changes into the other, it will emit W or Z particles to repeat the process. As long as the heat is stored and maintained, then the process is self-feeding for the weak nuclear reactions also. Then we could take this a step further and apply it to the strong nuclear force, which I believe would be anti-gravity. Gravity is the mismatch in frequencies.
and yet more nonsense.
Gravock - I earnestly suggest that you take the trouble to apply a little contraint in this your recipe for LENR. It is a young and emerging science that has been utterly discredited until Rossi's remarkable achievement. If we are to advance this rather than detract from it - which is the object of this thread - then I would propose that we restrict ourselves to known nuclear interactions and work from there. Not this pseudo intellectual pretentious meaningless nonsense. God knows. It'll be more than enough to justify further public rejection of any LENR claims when it's associated with this level of pseudo science. The problem with all over unity claims to date is precisely to get them credibly presented. And to try and present LENR in this context will most certainly have our entire science community rolling with laughter and reading here to get their daily comic relief.
I'm sorry to be this brutal. But as you said yourself. This subject is way too important. Golly. I honestly thought I could take your proposals seriously. If this level of nonsense continues - then I'm out of here.
Regards,Rosemary
Harti,
You either ban me or you ban Rosemary. I don't have time for this nonsense. I'm going to bed. Good night all. Hope to be back in the next few days and I hope Harti makes the right decision. Look who made reply# 666. It was Rosemary of course. This should tell you something. In my book, this means she's against the truth.
Gravock
@ rosemary
as crazy as he is,... G.B. is one of the few people on the planet that comprehend the true nature of physical matter. There is no mass, there is only point charges of energy, in a configuration so that they interact as a capacitor, slowly draining back from whence they came.
If you change the value of their charge and quantity, they will transition into all the states of matter and anti-matter.
All of the forces - electric, magnetic, gravitational, the visual and physical aspects of the atom, are the result of the interactions of these charges. Change them, you change the atom itself.
The frequency of the radiant event, is our perceptable indicator of the state of matter. Each element, each isotope, each ionic nuclei, each electron/positron, all radiate at a distinct frequency. By altering the frequency, with the help of constructive / destructive interference of harmonic wavelengths - we also alter the magnitude of the charge, and the amplitude of the wave proportionately.
This occurs at non-harmonic wavelengths, as well, but in a much less predictable manner.
conversly, by altering the magnitude of the charge, and the amplitude of the wave, you also change the frequency.
i have formulas for this, but i need to have some people double check/ proofread them before i go posting them around the world..
Hello Smokey,
There is not an energy enthusiast anywhere who does not subscribe to the concept of boundless energy being released through the application of resonating frequencies. There is nothing wrong in the concept. But that concept is just another complicated way of saying what our string and dark energy enthusiasts have been saying since 1925 or thereby. The difference is that these theorists have the decency to propose that they do not have the full picture. Yet here we have someone with a tenuous grasp of particle physics - advising us all not only on what to believe but who to believe. And why? And that 'why' is a mishmash of the most extraordinary nonsense that I've ever yet read - dressed up as 'science'. And where he points us to is more of those pretentious and unproven theories that - with the only exception of Zdidarsic - are entirely unpublished. The theories are all much of a muchness - again Zdidarsic excepted. Those spirals and vortices and sundry exchanges of bosons and phonons and God knows what else - that are proposed to take place in a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second - thereby accounting for something that may or may not be attributed to the strong or weak nuclear interaction - alternately, variously, or optionally. Thereby changing the protons to neutrons and back to protons - with all the vigour of an Olympic athlete and none of his elegance and even less of his intelligence? It's unadulterated confusion - dressed up as intellectual pretension. Exactly the nonsense that our detractors rely on.
It is my opinion that we would do MUCH BETTER to confine ourselves to experimental progress of this with an aim to finding some catalysts that may advance the process. And just leave the theory to to unfold from that evidence. That way we're not confronting or affronting any of our experts. Otherwise this thread will regress to that parade of nonsense that so many of these theoretical threads revert to. And they're always just a parade of our general arrogance as well as a parade of our lack of knowledge. And frankly, our forums need to do better - if we're to make any real contribution to this unfolding. And we need to. Because I think that if we're to benefit from abundant energy then we need to know as much as possible about it. Otherwise the knowledge and its applications will again be usurped by the expert. And we know how they abuse that position of expertise.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 20, 2012, 12:44:05 AM
This is psychobabble. Utterly pretentious nonsense. It's meaningless.
Quote
More unadulterated nonsense
and yet more nonsense.
@Rosemary,
Can you be a bit less offensive and show a bit more respect to the opinion of others?
You're derailing a very important discussion by your style of debating.
Teslaalset - I'm out of here. If you want all that pseudoscience - then go for it. I'm not about to engage. And I've really only touched on the criticism of his science. I haven't even got close to the harm it does our forums. And the very real pleasure this kind of nonsense gives our detractors.
I most certainly WAS NOT critical of the man. I was rather too complimentary. Gravock on the other hand has been profoundly insulting - especially as he sees me as Beelzebub incarnate. How old is he? And you didn't seem to mind that so much? Why IS that teslaalset?
Anyway guys. Everyone has the right to believe what they want. And this is certainly NOT my thread - that I can recommend some kind of standard. Out of line. Certainly.
I wish you well. I'm de-registering from this thread. I'll dip in from time to time. And Chess - I"ll stay in touch.
Regards,
Rosemary
It is end of February.
Where is that "game changer"? :D
Rossi has nothing more than improved Blacklightpower and Piantelli invention.Please look for Thermacore patent from 1991.
The only "invention" from clever ( I would rather say a smart ass) Rossi is use of Nickel nanopowders instead of Nickel rods. Reaction area is in order of magnitude larger-thus bigger thermal output.
Just multiply Piantelli's or Thermacore experiments thermal output by increased reaction area factor- and you will have Rossi.
Of course Nickel powder before going into cell needs to be properly treated- just annealed and purged in the deep vacuum for enough time to remove all moist and gases.
Mix this with one of openly disclosed Mill's catalysts, for example K2CO3 and that's it.
Big deal.
Regards,
pix
Good morning All,
Like the electron-positron being the same particle with opposite rotation direction, the neutron-proton are the same particle with different configurations of the quarks with different fractional charges. (one has 2 up quarks and 1 down quark, while the other has 2 down quarks and 1 up quark). I don't want to hear how they have a very slight difference in mass. This is due to other reasons which I don't care to get into, and is really outside the scope of this discussion. I'll be on the road soon.
Take care,
Gravock
Interesting info.
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/18/national-instruments-denies-relationship-with-rossi/ (http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/18/national-instruments-denies-relationship-with-rossi/)
added this link..
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi-confirms-leonardo-corp-no-longer-working-with-national-instruments-new-supplier-involved/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi-confirms-leonardo-corp-no-longer-working-with-national-instruments-new-supplier-involved/)
I'd like to suggest people take their theorizing about how these devices might work to another thread, and leave this one to serve its original purpose as a venue for relaying news about the bringing of these devices to market.
No disrespect intended towards any of the proponents of any of the conflicting theories, but when you start arguing and insulting each other that itself is showing disrespect to everyone else who has to witness it. If it's that important to you, take it outside as it were and start another thread that others don't have to see if they don't want to.
I don't think there's any harm in posting links here to theoretical information on other threads or websites that others can follow if they're interested, but this thread in the news section isn't the place for debating or arguing or trying to educate others about the theoretical science behind how the subject of this news thread works.
Thanks for your consideration.
@maw2432 (http://www.overunity.com/profile/maw2432.3582/)
As far as I am concerned, the editor of New Energy Times, Steven B. Krivit is a man not to be taken too seriously,
since his actions against the validity of Andrea Rossi's invention has gone very personal and resulted in several unfounded and
deceitful accusations created in the sole intention to discredit Andrea Rossi at all costs.
In this case Krivit is trying to defame Andrea Rossi once again by using this information in a negative way.
The second link of yours clears that up.
But the fact that this change from National Instruments into other suppliers was demanded by the secret 1MW buyer makes me worried.
It looks more and more like the worst case scenario I have expressed earlier, namely that Mr Rossi is slowly and delicately hoodwinked away from
his course. Just like they once did with Victor Schauberger, they may right now steal away all his dreams, leaving him a distrusted and lonely man,
accused by many as being a fraud. Signs like the NI suddenly not admitting that they have been working with Andrea Rossi points in that direction.
I really hope not, but there seems to be powers at work now, acting out in the interests of so called national security.
Gwandau
Dear Rosemary,
I am really not on anyones side here, but it comes to my mind that string theory is just as theoretical as any other theory presented here at the forum.
String theory has actually been criticized in the scientific community for not providing novel experimental predictions at accessible energy scales,
and seem to have evolved within a closed mathematical system, creating new paradoxes for every step taken, going from clarity to complexity instead of the other way around.
I am not really sure that contemporary science is on the right track. This may be big words coming out of a nobody like me, but all the big questions are
still unanswered, and what Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, Max Born, Wolfgang Pauli and Niels Borh and the other guys started to theorize in the twenties
really has not gotten any clearer today. To the contrary, every new empirical finding creates even more paradoxes.
To me it looks like our scientists are very skilled in making accurate observations, but if the very outlook from where we do these observations
is situated on an inefficient level of view, everything we observe becomes a puzzling maze.
Just like the time before Copernicus, when all the Astronomers were extremely accurately observing the movements of the celestial bodies.
But since they all based their observations upon the fact that our world was rigidly poised as the center of the universe, all the orbits of
the surrounding planets was depicted as strangely spiralling trajectories that due to unknown causes sometimes even mysteriously changed direction.
But suddenly, when we started to view things from a higher perspective, everything fell into place, and the movements of the celestial bodies became harmonic.
What I am trying to say is, the world as we know it is right now going through a change.
Andrea Rossi and the Cold Fusion Movement is but one of the signs.
And it may come as a total surprise to many people, but the LENR effect is a portal to a completely new understanding of our reality.
Our greatest contemporary scientists will not be able to solve this riddle, just as the people before Copernicus was unable to do.
Our new Paradigm Shifters will come forth from the unorthodox thinkers, just like the uneducated Albert Einstein once did and changed our world.
Of course a theory has to be validated to gain momentum.
Of course none of us proposing to have the answer has managed to do this.
But likewise the String theory still has to be validated, in all its impressive mathemathical complexity.
So my advise to everyone here at the OU forum and elsewhere:
Stay open minded and never invite the ego to the party.
We are all here for the same reason
Gwandau
Quote from: lwh on February 20, 2012, 02:53:48 PM
I'd like to suggest people take their theorizing about how these devices might work to another thread, and leave this one to serve its original purpose as a venue for relaying news about the bringing of these devices to market.
No disrespect intended towards any of the proponents of any of the conflicting theories, but when you start arguing and insulting each other that itself is showing disrespect to everyone else who has to witness it. If it's that important to you, take it outside as it were and start another thread that others don't have to see if they don't want to.
I don't think there's any harm in posting links here to theoretical information on other threads or websites that others can follow if they're interested, but this thread in the news section isn't the place for debating or arguing or trying to educate others about the theoretical science behind how the subject of this news thread works.
Thanks for your consideration.
IWH - contrary to your claim here - THERE IS NO DEBATE OR ARGUMENT RELATED TO EDUCATING ANYONE AT ALL. What has occurred is the CONTINUAL attempt by Gravock to degenerate this thread into a discussion on LENR. And this in the face of my REPEATED requests that he desist. May I remind you.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 20, 2012, 03:25:15 AM
...It is my opinion that we would do MUCH BETTER to confine ourselves to experimental progress of this with an aim to finding some catalysts that may advance the process. And just leave the theory to to unfold from that evidence. That way we're not confronting or affronting any of our experts. Otherwise this thread will regress to that parade of nonsense that so many of these theoretical threads revert to. And they're always just a parade of our general arrogance as well as a parade of our lack of knowledge. And frankly, our forums need to do better - if we're to make any real contribution to this unfolding. And we need to. Because I think that if we're to benefit from abundant energy then we need to know as much as possible about it. Otherwise the knowledge and its applications will again be usurped by the expert. And we know how they abuse that position of expertise.
Regards,
Rosemary
That is all that I've been saying with varying levels of 'tact' from the inception of my dialogue with Gravock. HAD I attempted to advance any particular thesis at all - then I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AMBIGUOUS. Feel free to give me advice. But I'm not sure that it's appropriate when it is PRECISELY what I, myself, was ADVISING.
Regards,
Rosemary.
I actually de-registered from this thread. For some reason it hasn't taken.
Steven B. Krivit is mainly zooming into the negative sides of Rossi for some reason.
Krivit is right about having doubts on Rosi's demo + calculations of last summer where Krivit was present. The actual steam production shown did not represent Rossi's claim of having 7 liters of water converted into steam in one hour.
But that is only one aspect of quite a number of facts that Rossi's has shown. If Krivit wants to deny Rossi's big progress on LENR, he must be blind. Soon Defkalion will show results and I am pretty confident that is the necessary next step in convincing people what is happening.
The fact that Rossi's company Leornardo Corp. changed it's control supplier does not mean it's negative news.
There's more going on with Leordando Corp. I noticed that the applicant of Rossi's patent EP2259998 has been changed recently from his wife's name to Leonardo Corp (source: European Patent Register), meaning the owner of the patent is now Leonardo Corp.
There is clearly a new investment construction created related to Leornardo Corp, which makes a lot of sense looking to Rossi's ambitions.
Teslaalset,
I really hope you are right concerning the reason for AR to change supplier.
As long as his invention is still unknown to the majority, he is an easy target if measures are decided to be taken aginst him.
It all depends on the outcome of the decisions taken by the people responsible for the national security the moment they see the gravity of the situation.
Is his invention possible to incorporate seamlessly into the present monetary and social strucure, or is it a potential threat to stability?
If the latter alternative becomes obvious, he is out of business one way or the other, alive or dead.
That's why it is extremely important for anyone that succeeds in replicating this technique to get his/her findings out as open source.
This is a to big thing to mess around with for personal gain, and Andrea Rossi is playing a game with players far more resourceful than him.
Why even bother about money, this invention will in the long run make money completely useless!
Gwandau
I believe it's already too late to control the introduction of LENR products in the market soon by politics.
There are already too much details known.
Besides, Rossi hinted already of his technology being available open source on medium term (his interview on Jan 14th this year).
In general US citizens are paranoid thinking that the government and military can control all of this.
If Rossi will be too much hindered in the US he will move to Europe or worst case to Africa where regulations and control are a bit less tight.
In my view this can't be controlled worldwide, regulations will always be slow, while Rossi will launch within this year or early next year.
It's kind of lucky Rossi is producing in the US and Defkalion in Europe. That makes the chance that all of this will be suppressed or too much controlled slim.
Once a few products are in the market, it will be very soon replicated and the essence will be openly available.
Times are changed, one publication on the internet and secrets are out.
I agree that if LENR product will be rolled out soon and with large quantities this could cause some political instability.
But a huge transition will not happen within one year, it will happen over 15 - 20 years.
@Teslaalset:
I agree with almost everything you just posted. A view that further encapsulates mine is found at the following link:
http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/the-emergence-of-lenr-and-its-predictable-effect-on-the-economy/ (http://coldfusionnow.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/the-emergence-of-lenr-and-its-predictable-effect-on-the-economy/)
Here's an excerpt from the above mentioned link:
"To summarize, in my opinion the best way to estimate how the emergence of LENR onto the market place will effect our economy is to look at the know effects of higher oil prices. Take for instance the current spike in oil prices: just when companies have finally stepped up hiring, rising oil prices are threatening to halt the U.S. economy’s gains. On the other hand, LENR will predictably lower energy prices, amplifying U.S. economic gains.
Cheaper products, more jobs, more money to spend â€" WOW! The positive feedback effects could mean geometric economic expansion. The future will be so bright, we’ll have to wear shades!"
Cheers,
Chess
Earlier I indicated that I expect a similar boost to global economies will happen compared to what internet brought us.
There is one exeption in the comparison however: In Europe in particular a huge amount of tax is raised on fossile fuels (e.g. in my country the tax percentage on petrol is approx. 85%).
In general this means governments will get less tax income from taxed energy sources if LENR becomes main stream.
And taxing LENR based energy sources can not be justified, since there is no harmfull waste like CO2.
This means that other (existing) tax rates will be raised to compensate losses in tax income of governments.
In Europe discussions are onging to change the tax system such that in particular an increased tax will be raised on goods.
Resources are becoming more scarce, or get hijacked (look at what e.g. China is doing).
But in general, people will benifit until the LENR roll-out has matured.
More jobs, cheaper products (in the early phase of the LENR age), more areas to build houses in colder climates because of more affordable heating, larger areas of agriculture (greenhouses) etc.
Lot's of new R&D efforts and eager investors.
First economic analysis on the effect of LENR are appearing on the internet:
http://coldfusionnow.org/?p=14094 (http://coldfusionnow.org/?p=14094)
(too optimistic in my view)
Quote from: lwh on February 20, 2012, 02:53:48 PM
I'd like to suggest people take their theorizing about how these devices might work to another thread, and leave this one to serve its original purpose as a venue for relaying news about the bringing of these devices to market.
No disrespect intended towards any of the proponents of any of the conflicting theories, but when you start arguing and insulting each other that itself is showing disrespect to everyone else who has to witness it. If it's that important to you, take it outside as it were and start another thread that others don't have to see if they don't want to.
I don't think there's any harm in posting links here to theoretical information on other threads or websites that others can follow if they're interested, but this thread in the news section isn't the place for debating or arguing or trying to educate others about the theoretical science behind how the subject of this news thread works.
Thanks for your consideration.
As you wish. I'll keep quite then, but I would like to add, what I proposed isn't based on a theory. What I'm saying is an inarguable fact. You'll all see soon enough. Also, I won't be starting a dedicated thread to discuss how to successfully build a LENR. Why? Because it will fall on deaf ears like it did in this thread. I won't be wasting any more of your time or my time.
Take care,
Gravock
@teslaalset and chessnyt
"Cold Fusion Now" depicts a wonderful future of smooth transition and altruistic behaviour from the energy cartel.
In my opinion this is utterly childish. Much lesser threats to the energy cartel have resulted in a sad story for the opponent.
I don´t think LENR is on safe ground yet. They are actually far from safety, and by succumbing to greed and keeping it all secret
they are actually making it quite easy for the guys that they are threatening.
Nobody besides AR and Defkalion has been able to create LENR with same energy efficiency.
NOBODY.
And it took Andrea Rossi 18 years of research to get to the point he is today.
What the rest of us besides Defkalion know today about the e-cat is just about as much as they knew about the Nickel-hydrogen phenomenon in the 90's.
The whole LENR movement is still only known by a very limited number of people, far from the main stream media, and most of us I believe will be easily misled if AR and D-K are effectively discredited.
It's a piece of cake for the energy cartel to put an end to it all. There is an abundance of means to put an end to the progress.
It's not about being positive or negative, it's just how the world is.
Do you really believe we are living in a fair world with a fair chance for everyone to succeed?
Not until it is all open source we are a little more on the safe side.
I don't really understand how anyone can miss the following alarm signals:
1. Andrea Rossis only MW buyer is a shady Anonymous who has ordered every unit available, thus securing all production into
one single direction.
2. The choice to change supplier from National Instruments to a Anonymous supplier was not the choice of Andrea Rossi.
It was the choise of the buyer.
Don't you see what I see?
3. As a result of this move by the Anonymous buyer also the electronic supplier to the domestic e-cats has been put behind the
curtain.
4. And even worse is the conclusion: Everything seems to become deliberately associated with the Anonymous buyer.
Andrea Rossi is slowly loosing his footing. Quoting the "E-cat World" February 19 :
From what Rossi says here it appears that he no longer is the sole decision maker in the development and commercialization
of the E-Cat - the ‘Trust to which Leonardo Corporation now belongs’ is making decisions which possibly may be overriding
Rossi's own ideas. /end of quote
There ARE two alternatives here, nobody can deny that:
1. Andrea Rossi is in good hands, the Anonymous buyer is a reliable group of people, charing the revolutionary path of LENR.
2. Andrea Rossi is unknowingly subjected to an organization created with one goal, to stop public access to this technology.
Hope I am wrong and you are right
Gwandau
Gwandau,
I understand your concerns, but I have a bit of a different view on them.
There are two parties you mentioned:
- The first 1MW unit buyer
- The investors in Leonardo Corperation
The fact that the first 1MW buyer wants to remain anonymous is understandable in my view.
He's investing 1M$ in something that was (and maybe still is) highly speculative.
- His reputation maybe at stake as an investor in case Rossi's claims are far from the real situation.
- There maybe opponents that want to frustrate his willingness to stick out his neck to invest in LERN.
These are two quite understandable reasons to remain anonymous at this stage.
With respect to Leonardo Corp, Rossi is in a nasty situation:
Severe competition is around (Defkalion) and Rossi needs to keep the paste to enter the market with large volumes to get some money back that he personally invested.
If he wants to do this on his own, he's simply not able to ramp up that paste, because setting up a factory requires serious amounts of money.
So, its either choose to do this all with small money and have a slow market introduction, or do this the way he's planning it, with some investors and loose some control of it all.
I am sure Rossi has a legal advisor and made sure he's still having > 50% of the ownership of Leonardo Corp.
There must be hundreds of investors willing to invest, so Rossi can just pick the ones that are willing to work with him under minority share.
It's good to see some difference in optimism and opinions.
Some more on NI<>Leonardo Corp.:
http://e-catsite.com/2012/02/21/ni-corroborates-rossi-statements/ (http://e-catsite.com/2012/02/21/ni-corroborates-rossi-statements/)
My personal view is that Defkalion seems to perfectly cope without the help of NI.
Rossi obtained the help of NI in the initial phase of defining a good control mechanism for his LENR process.
For the mass production obviously cheeper solutions are available.
So, I see the cooperation with NI as a one off consultancy deal that has been completed.
It was never stated anywhere that NI components would be used in the final products.
An interesting view on the scenario of introducing LENR to the world by Dave Cline:
https://plus.google.com/113163888439328035664/posts/8fYj9X1qW88 (https://plus.google.com/113163888439328035664/posts/8fYj9X1qW88)
Good articles teslaalset. Nice to see National Instruments validated their work with Rossi and that they expressed interest in the value of his technology. Cline's article was fun to read too - rather hilarious at times but possibly the way a lot of things could happen.
An excellent analysis of measurements on steam, related to the COP calculations on the e-cat experiments:
http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_steam_frames_v410H.php (http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_steam_frames_v410H.php)
It's hard to conclude whether the public e-cat steam analysis are correct or not, but in my view enough room for Rossi to be correct.
teslaalset,
thanks for the steam analysis link, very valuable, and thanks for respecting my worried opinions.
I soo want to jump onto the shiny optimistic wagon and I hate being the negative nagging old crone here,
but the impact of history won't leave me at rest.
I agree on every point about the good reasons for Andrea Rossi's choice to go along with the changes demanded by the Anonymous buyer.
At the same time this may be exactly what a potential opponent want us to think.
In any case, I have vented my worries, and now I want to join the happy guys. :) :D ;D
No more nagging from me from now on.
Gwandau
@Everyone:
Can you imagine what the people with other alternative energy breakthroughs (outside of LENR technology) are going through right now? Try to imagine those who thought they were going to peddle their wares to the oil cartels in exchange for a huge payout. Now, more than ever before, we just may have a chance to see a host of other alternative or free energy technologies that otherwise would never have seen the light of day thanks to LENR. After all, what good would it do the oil cartels to buy up any more threatening energy technologies when LENR is enough to topple their entire kingdom (industry).
I agree with everyone who believes that Rossi is trying to get paid. Of course he is and rightfully so. Everyone should recall an inventor of Rossi's caliber (actually, I think he was beyond Rossi's calibre as he not only gave us A/C electricity, but he also gave us the the A/C motor, wireless transmissions or radio and many more breakthrough inventions/discoveries we still use to this day). I just thank God he didn't rush to the oil cartels with it to be bought out and suppressed for another 20 years.
Now certainly Tesla died a multi-billionaire, right? Of course not. He died a broke lonely old man living in a run down hotel for a home. Such a pitiful demise for a man who was responsible for bringing multiple world changing technological discoveries to mankind. Certainly, Rossi does not want to suffer a similar fate.
Concerning Rossi's competition; Defkalion needs to make up for Rossi's lead in making it to the market first. Rossi's corporation already made its first commercial sale as of October of last year. Now that Rossi is preparing to mass produce his products, Defkalion is yet to even offer one product for even a commercial interest/buyer. This shows how obviously behind they are compared to Rossi (their #1 competitor).
Defkalion's latest move to allow their product to be tested publicly (and thoroughly) will lend them some inexpensive exposure and free advertising. Live demonstrations of any product beats a picture in a news article hands down every time.
Also, Defkalion's willingness to allow the experts to verify their technology may give their company the lions share (pun intended) of real in-depth mainstream news coverage and not just the scraps that Rossi has been afforded by them.
Rossi may be closer to the store shelf but Defkalion could end up being more widely known and trusted. If they delay their scheduled upcoming testing, on the other hand, they will be finished and not in a good way.
Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
Rossi gave another rare interview this afternoon with a Mr. Frank Acland. A host of various topics were discussed clearing up some of the concerns poorly addressed until now. In this interview (on 2/25/2012), the topics covered were as follows:
o The Investor’s Trust
o 1 MW E-Cat Plant
o Electrical Production (from steam temperature of 251 degrees C)
o National Instruments
o Domestic E-Cats
o Competition
o U.L. Certification
o Patents
o Rossi’s Health
Here are just a few excerpts from the article arising out of today's interview:
"The final size of these units will be 12 x 12 x 4 inches, and the weight will be 20 lb. A special synthetic insulating material surrounds each reactor to ensure maximum efficiency. There will not be any pictures of the unit released until the fall when he starts accepting orders.
Rossi emphasized that the 10 kW units are designed to be added on to existing heating systems, not to replace them. It will be an appendage that can be used to provide heat to whatever system already exists in homes, allowing users to save on their current sources of fuel. The heat output of these units will be between 40 and 80 degrees C. They will be able to provide home heat and hot water. These units will have fully automatic controls â€" the customer is not able to modify its operations; Rossi said a COP of 6 is guaranteed.
The units will cost between $600 and $900 per unit, a price that he feels will discourage anyone from going into competition with similar units that are based on reverse engineering of his products. Production is not planned outside the US because the small size of these units makes it fairly efficient to ship all over the world. Customs and shipping costs could make these units up to 20 percent more expensive outside the US."
The full article can be found at the following link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi-siemens-ag-helping-with-leonardo-corp-with-efficient-electricity-generation/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi-siemens-ag-helping-with-leonardo-corp-with-efficient-electricity-generation/)
It appears that Rossi is starting to realize that you must be a "people person" if you intend to do well in a position as CEO in any corporation. Apparently to me, it looks as though Defkalion may have lit a new fire under Rossi's temperament and public relations.
To an exciting and bright new future,
Chess
why would you have it as an addon unit to your exisiting hot water to save on fuel when its cop 6? i would think that instead of saving a bit of a money people would be more interested in saving a lot of money and having the e-cat as the primary (not secondary) source of hot water
I don't recall the exact numbers but it was something like the power spent in heating your house was around 40-60kw.
So the 10kw can only be a secondary unit.
So if a 10kw costs 600-900â,¬ a 50kw would be much more expensive.
When this product is heavily sold the price will come down and it will be the only source of heat and it will also produce electricity somehow so there will be no need for the grid.
My worry is that this Rossy could be killed maybe with a lab explosion or something.
If this technology matures it will change the world destroying many mafias.
Quote from: bugler on February 26, 2012, 06:29:20 AM
I don't recall the exact numbers but it was something like the power spent in heating your house was around 40-60kw.
So the 10kw can only be a secondary unit.
Yes, I would also subscribe to this reasoning.
Quote from: bugler on February 26, 2012, 06:29:20 AM
When this product is heavily sold the price will come down and it will be the only source of heat and it will also produce electricity somehow so there will be no need for the grid.
Rossi seems very intent on solving the electrical production issues which is why he brought in Siemens AG. It appears that Rossi has almost solved this challenge ahead of schedule thanks to the engineers at Siemens.
And it's not just Siemens that is showering the Leonardo Corp. with so much attention. Many other leaders in industry want to get involved as well revealing their faith in the reality of this new technology as one that will take over (become the new standard) the energy industry of the future. It's very difficult to ride a wave if you are on the wrong side of it (e.g. it has passed you by). Early participation is much more profitable.
Here's the excerpt concerning electrical production and increased interest in the Leonardo Corp. from yesterday's article:
"Rossi reported on what he considered a significant breakthrough in the area of electrical production. He said that just a few days ago Siemens AG (http://www.siemens.com/entry/cc/en/)
(German engineering firm) were with him in his Bologna factory and they demonstrated a turbine that could produce electricity at 30 per cent efficiency from a steam temperature of 251 C. This is much lower than the 550 C steam temperatures that are required in conventional electrical generation. Rossi said that the E-Cat becomes unstable when working at high temperatures. He said that because of this breakthrough he feels like electrical production from the 1 MW plants could take place sooner than expected. Electricity production from the small E-Cats will still take some time according to Rossi. Siemens is one of the largest engineering companies in the world, and Rossi mentioned that Leonardo corporation is getting more attention from people in the industrial sector." Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on February 25, 2012, 11:10:01 PM
@Everyone:
Rossi gave another rare interview this afternoon with a Mr. Frank Acland. A host of various topics were discussed clearing up some of the concerns poorly addressed until now. In this interview (on 2/25/2012), the topics covered were as follows:
o The Investor’s Trust
o 1 MW E-Cat Plant
o Electrical Production (from steam temperature of 251 degrees C)
o National Instruments
o Domestic E-Cats
o Competition
o U.L. Certification
o Patents
o Rossi’s Health
...
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi-siemens-ag-helping-with-leonardo-corp-with-efficient-electricity-generation/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/02/rossi-siemens-ag-helping-with-leonardo-corp-with-efficient-electricity-generation/)
It appears that Rossi is starting to realize that you must be a "people person" if you intend to do well in a position as CEO in any corporation. Apparently to me, it looks as though Defkalion may have lit a new fire under Rossi's temperament and public relations.
To an exciting and bright new future,
Chess
Hi Chess,
This is an excellent sample of your ability to marshal the facts. Very well reported. And well done for keeping all this in focus. It all helps to dispel the doubters. Not that it's not a reasonable reaction. But all transitions will be quicker when there's a stronger belief in this new reality... confronting us all. ;D What fun.
And thank you. Clearly your efforts here are tireless.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on February 26, 2012, 12:49:46 PM
Hi Chess,
This is an excellent sample of your ability to marshal the facts. Very well reported. And well done for keeping all this in focus. It all helps to dispel the doubters. Not that it's not a reasonable reaction. But all transitions will be quicker when there's a stronger belief in this new reality... confronting us all. ;D What fun.
And thank you. Clearly your efforts here are tireless.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
@Rosemary:
Thank you very much for the kind compliments.
The technology is becoming more and more difficult for the trolls to dismiss. Especially in light of the fact that they are now having to falsely discredit the technology (LENR) contrary to the efforts of significant members of mainstream science which are already pubicly endorsing it.
As far as the transition goes; I think that the transition will occur much sooner than was previously expected. With gasoline prices approaching $5 dollars a gallon (which is predicted to rise above $9 dollars a gallon), there is a stronger incentive for people to switch to an energy source which will be much more economically feasable than petroleum based fuels. So the sooner people make the switch, the sooner they will be able to save money and finally put the oil cartels out of business for the most part. At least out of the energy business. You see, I predict that burning petroleum based fuels will become outlawed with the next decade due to the new alternative choices at hand and our unhealhy air quality trends in the big cities.
So Rossi owes a great deal of gratitude to the oil cartels for their current price gouging tactics. They are making LENR technology more and more attractive every time people spot a gas station sign.
Best regards,
Chess
chessnyt,
you think 5 dollars a gallon is much?
Prices in Sweden and most of Europe is around 8.64 dollars a gallon...
Wonder what the big guys behind the oil cartels are planning.
Let's just hope Andrea Rossi has a high level security set around him,
it would be unbearable to hear about him die in some mysterious car accident.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on February 28, 2012, 02:44:13 PM
chessnyt,
you think 5 dollars a gallon is much?
Prices in Sweden and most of Europe is around 8.64 dollars a gallon...
Wonder what the big guys behind the oil cartels are planning.
@Gwandau
yes, $5 dollars a gallon is a lot to pay here in the U.S. but $8 dollars a gallon would pretty much collapse our economy within 2 months.
The global economic crisis continues to be perpetuated by the oil cartels as they point their fingers at the housing market, Wall Street and the banks (sub-prime lenders).
The bottom line is that artificially inflated gasoline prices are the root of all the economic avalanches the world is experiencing now.
When gasoline prices rise dramatically, then EVERY industry must react by raising their prices because it causes a dramatic increase to their overhead. It's an adjustment that must be made in order to maintain a healthy profit margin in order to stay in business.
So a store, for example, must spend more money because all of their goods are shipped using transportation that requires petroleum based fuels. This additional overhead has to be passed on to the consumer. That translates into increases in product pricing regardless of the product.
Now apply this effect to companies offering services and you will see this causes their pricing to increase as well. So the chain reaction starts with gasoline price gouging. Just like dominoes in a row.
So the master plan of the oil cartels is to completely collapse the world economy and buy up business and properties for pennies on the dollar with the RECORD profits that they are currently reporting (by law they still have to report them) to the government. In other words, to increase in power in ALL industries and not just their own in order to build monopolies in other industries unrelated to oil (energy).
The Leonardo Corp. and Defkalion are about to release their stranglehold on the world. The oil cartel's monopoly is completely useless at that point so they are making as much money as they can before their industry is completely bankrupted (and it will be, trust me). You can only rob the bank while you're the only one holding a gun.
Regards,
Chess
Thinking of how the new E-cat cartridge can contain both Ni and Hydrogen, I stumbled upon an interesting website on "Material for Hydrogen Storage" : http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=16375039 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=16375039)
With these materials mixed with the Ni powder, hydrogen can be stored at relative low pressure, something that will help to obtain sufficient hydrogen storage capacity over at least 180 days.
Storing hydrogen under large pressure will require special materials for the E-cat cartridge which on top also need to able to withstand high temperatures.
Quote from: teslaalset on February 29, 2012, 02:41:22 PM
Thinking of how the new E-cat cartridge can contain both Ni and Hydrogen, I stumbled upon an interesting website on "Material for Hydrogen Storage" : http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=16375039 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=16375039)
With these materials mixed with the Ni powder, hydrogen can be stored at relative low pressure, something that will help to obtain sufficient hydrogen storage capacity over at least 180 days.
Storing hydrogen under large pressure will require special materials for the E-cat cartridge which on top also need to able to withstand high temperatures.
@teslaalset:
Apparently, Rossi had problems getting the safety permits (or certification) to ship hydrogen thus he has eliminated the canister of hydrogen altogether. (The canister is still required for the 1MW commercial units)
Rossi offers the following explanation:
(excerpt taken from interview with Sterling Allan on 1/15/2012)
"Sterling Allan: Alright. Also, we were talking about the logistics of re-fill. What about the hydrogen canister? Andrea Rossi: Here we have a big surprise. This is a big surprise. It is very likely that the E-Cats we are working with now, work without canisters of hydrogen, because we have resolved the problem with a substance that inside the reactor stores and recycles the hydrogen. Consuming it, but you know we consume a picogram of hydrogen, and so a charge of ten grams lasts six months of operation. So basically, we have resolved the problem of the canister. The problem of the canister was very big for the domestic E-Cats. Because to get a safety certifications for an apparatus that has a tank of hydrogen, was very difficult. And so we have resolved the problem. This is a tremendous improvement of our technology that we made in these last times. Sterling Allan: So if I understand what you just said, there is no hydrogen canister required? Andrea Rossi: No." Regards,
Chess
Chess,
I was one of the guys attending the live interview, so I am aware of what Rossi announced back then.
There may be two arguments for leaving the hydrogen canister out:
- safety
- cost
If I look to the latest Hyperion photo's, Defkalion is still having the canister construction, while they claim to fullfull safety regulations (I think they refer to only Greece regulations, maybe European as well). So, it's not sure they are confident in fullfilling US regulations (mainly UL), but they seem to have no worries about having a canister as part of the construction.
Cost consequences may be severe, since using a canister also requires some mechnism to load and regulate pressure and additional electronic control. So its seems Rossi's price difference compared to the latest indications, also by Defkalion's, clearly shows that a much simpler construction is possible by having the Hydrogen included in the Ni powder cartridge.
So, I think Rossi has a headstart regarding costprice and maintainance costs.
However, the Hyperion is specified of having a COP > 20, so operational costs of the initial announced Hyperion seems more economical compared to the E-cat for heavy users.
the hydrogen could be produced during reaction,
so that there is no need for external cylinder
Peter
It has been a week now since Defkalion was to start a series of tests of their technology . So far the silence is deafening . Anyone heard any news ?
Check this:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/07/greek-government-agencies-involved-in-testing-of-defkalions-hyperion-products/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2011/07/greek-government-agencies-involved-in-testing-of-defkalions-hyperion-products/)
Its really suspicious that greek government should test Hyperion products more than half a year ago. Were are the results of these tests?
Defkalion is closing their forum website.
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1278
This is not a good sign.
@jan.kolar
Don't know, but we may expect the test results of the tests made Febraury 24 quite soon,
since the Greek government tests of the Defkalion reactor showed positive results.
here is a quote from the article in the Swedish "Ny Teknik" (February 29):
Representatives of the Greek government on February 24 assisted at a test of Defkalion's energy technology â€"
a potentially fierce competitor of Andrea Rossi's 'E-cat.' Meanwhile, Rossi continues to develop his technology.
Defkalion announced on its web forum today that high-level representatives of the Greek government were present at a test of Defkalion's technology and that "opinions and results were very positive".
In an interview with Ny Teknik, Alexandros Xanthoulis, representative of the investors, said that the test was conducted on 24 February and that it was not focused on safety, as the product is not yet ready for such tests. The focus was instead to show that there was excess heat energy released from a 'Low Energy Nuclear Reaction' and not from a chemical source. The test lasted for 24 hours and included both an empty and an active reactor, which were switched after 12 hours. Xanthoulis also said that two of the seven international groups have already carried out their tests and that the last of those tests is scheduled for late March. He did not say when or if the test results will be published. /end of quote
Gwandau
@ everyone
Quote from article posted in "E-cat World"
Rossi Answers Detailed Questions About Domestic E-Cat, March 1, 2012
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-answers-detailed-questions-about-domestic-e-cat/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-answers-detailed-questions-about-domestic-e-cat/)
Here we learn that the e-cat will cost about 28,8 KW per 24 hours continous use, the start up consumption
and the self-sustain periods taken into account. This makes me cool off quite a bit,
since this is quite a cost to keep the e-cat running as an addition to the regular heating system of a house.
It will certainly not be interesting for me, who are heating my house with free wood and who primarily
just want to get off the grid.
No, only if I solve the electricity part, the whole thing becomes attractive.
If my wild plans to create electricity out of modified e-cats fail, maybe the
South African electrical generator combined with e-cats will be the solution.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on March 01, 2012, 03:46:23 PM
Quote from article posted in "E-cat World"
Rossi Answers Detailed Questions About Domestic E-Cat, March 1, 2012
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-answers-detailed-questions-about-domestic-e-cat/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-answers-detailed-questions-about-domestic-e-cat/)
Here we learn that the e-cat will cost about 28,8 KW per 24 hours continous use, the start up consumption
and the self-sustain periods taken into account. This makes me cool off quite a bit,
since this is quite a cost to keep the e-cat running as an addition to the regular heating system of a house.
It will certainly not be interesting for me, who are heating my house with free wood and who primarily
just want to get off the grid.
I am glad Rossi made that more clear recently.
As for me, this is old news, see my reply #603 on page 41 of this thread.
B.t.w. the real source of this info comes from: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=580&cpage=6#comment-192569 (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=580&cpage=6#comment-192569)
Here Rossi very loyally answers all questions to the public.
@Everyone:
The latest news I could find is similar to the last few posts. Here's part I.:
"Tests with the presence of high level Government officials have been concluded. Opinions and results were very positive.
Announcements will be made upon mutual agreements, at a time yet to be defined.
Tests continue with international Authorities in the coming weeks." -- Defkalion Site Admin.
This is the link:
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1237 (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1237)
Here's part II.:
"Defkalion is planning to go public and issue stock. He said Defkalion executives had told him that they are planning an initial public offering which means they will be public. He didn’t state what exchange they will be traded on.There is no date for this or the release of the Hyperion device to the public, although Defkalion has apparently completed all of the required safety testing on the device.
Some basic facts about Hyperion include:
o The device has 9 reactors in it.
o The reaction chambers can produce temperatures of up to 900 degrees Celsius that is more than enough temperature to produce steam to run a steam engine.
o The reaction begins at 450 degrees Celsius.
o The device uses oil to transfer heat to make it useful.
Hyperion CEO Alexandros Xanthoulis told [Sterling] Allan that the Nickel Age is about to begin. Kudos to Mr. Allan for having an open mind and having the courage to go to Greece and investigate this important story that the so called journalists in the mainstream media refuse to have anything to do with!!"
Here's the link:
http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/defkalion-reveales-lenr-device-licensing-stock-plans (http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/defkalion-reveales-lenr-device-licensing-stock-plans)
Rossi's E-cat may be cheaper but Defkalion's device can heat steam to around 900 degrees Celsius!!!!! Also, using oil in the heat exchanger primary is also a very smart design feature. This thing could get you off of the grid providing you can come up with a steam turbine and a steam dryer system (as wet steam would eat up a conventional steam turbine).
I would be happy with a two piston steam engine and lose some efficiency but still enable the system to remain relatively uncomplicated enough to make the repairs myself. I have the access to skilled machinists who could build most of the parts for me. I would love to put out a video of how to assemble the system and safely operate it on YouTube.
So it appears that both companies developing these LENR products have their own unique advantages to offer.
Cheers,
Chess
List of LENR startups is growing:
Two leading:
Leonardo corporation (http://leonardocorp1996.com/)
Defkalion (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/)
New kids on the block:
AmpEnergo (http://ampenergo.com/)
Seldon Technologies (http://www.seldontech.com/)
Lattice Energy (http://lattice-energy.blogspot.com/)
Brillouin Energy Corporation (http://www.brillouinenergy.com/)
Energetics Technology (http://www.energeticstech.com/)
Star Scientific (http://www.starscientific.com.au/)
SynergetX HP B.V. (http://www.synergetx-hp.nl/SynergetX-HP/Main.html)
Marwan Chemie (http://www.marwan-chemie.de/html_research/lenr_energy.html)
Any more?
Quote from: teslaalset on March 02, 2012, 05:56:30 AM
List of LENR startups is growing:
Two leading:
Leonardo corporation (http://leonardocorp1996.com/)
Defkalion (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/)
New kids on the block:
AmpEnergo (http://ampenergo.com/)
Seldon Technologies (http://www.seldontech.com/)
Lattice Energy (http://lattice-energy.blogspot.com/)
Brillouin Energy Corporation (http://www.brillouinenergy.com/)
Energetics Technology (http://www.energeticstech.com/)
Star Scientific (http://www.starscientific.com.au/)
SynergetX HP B.V. (http://www.synergetx-hp.nl/SynergetX-HP/Main.html)
Marwan Chemie (http://www.marwan-chemie.de/html_research/lenr_energy.html)
Any more?
Nice list -- but can you tell us IN WHAT WAY these companies are "LENR startups" -- are they competing with Rossi and Dekfalion, or subsidiaries to them? Also, any links to show that these companies are "startups"?
Thanks!
@JouleSeeker
I can only discern one single possible LENR startup, the Brillouin Energy Corporation.
AmpEnergo Inc. is the E-cat marketer in the North American region.
Seldon Technologies specializes in water filtration products.
Lattice Energy LLC, founded 2003, still presented to be in the process
of developing their technology, but no signs of any results so far.
Energetics Technology do not seem to have any own genuine LENR technology,
they are mainly propagating the LENR concept.
Star Scientific are still researching in how to massproduce the hard to get pions
to be used in their so called Muon Catalysed Fusion process. Nice idea but no break
through so far.
SynergetX HP B.V. same as Energetics Technology.
That leaves only the Brillouin Energy Corporation with their LENR concept using
helium and hydrogen. They are similarily to the BlackLight Power Inc.
( http://www.blacklightpower.com (http://www.blacklightpower.com/) ) utilizing different energy states of hydrogen
in combination with helium.
What is escpecially interesting here is that they are disclosing electromagnetic
pulses as being the primary catalyzer.
High frequency EMP is the only road into the nucleus of an atom, if you don't want
to do it the hard way by hot fusion force.
And resonance is the key.
Gwandau
Quote from: JouleSeeker on March 02, 2012, 11:51:36 AM
Nice list -- but can you tell us IN WHAT WAY these companies are "LENR startups" -- are they competing with Rossi and Dekfalion, or subsidiaries to them? Also, any links to show that these companies are "startups"?
Thanks!
Joulseeker, just move over the names of the companies and click your mouse.
The names are hyperlinks to the same companies.
Anyone will have different opinion on how far these companies are.
Quote from: Gwandau on February 28, 2012, 02:44:13 PM
Let's just hope Andrea Rossi has a high level security set around him,
it would be unbearable to hear about him die in some mysterious car accident.
Gwandau
@Gwandau
Yes, murder would not be beneath the oil cartels as we have seen this before (at least those who believe that Stan Meyer was poisoned to death and that JFK was shot in the head from the front) when someone comes close to threatening the almighty profits of their corporations.
On top of the over-polution problem and false flag wars waged in the name of black gold, it's the greed factor that is at the pinnacle (the kissing cousin of selfishness). Because most people know that greed is a weakness and a major character flaw that can never serve the common good and always leads to the selfdestruction of its owners.
It's the same disease that Hitler suffered from which proved to be terminal, as it has been in every case in the entire history of humanity. Greed is a master that can never be satisfied.
This disease drives all evil men to such things as murder and human suffering and must be eradicated by mankind in every instance.
Rossi is very familiar with the tactices of the oil cartels and the Arabs. They have attacked him before through blackmail and slander. They fought very hard to discredit Rossi in the beginning and tried to portray him and his technology as a fraud.
Next, they will not try to stop him through smear campaigns. They will get nasty. But I believe Rossi must be prepared for such things as he does use in house security at his demonstrations and Rossi is not naive about his enemy (at the expense of past examples with other inventors and presidents).
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 02, 2012, 06:20:47 PM
@Gwandau
Yes, murder would not be beneath the oil cartels as we have seen this before (at least those who believe that Stan Meyer was poisoned to death and that JFK was shot in the head from the front) when someone comes close to threatening the almighty profits of their corporations.
I don't think the oil industry is that much of a threat. The oil industry does invest in alternative energies, such as wind, solar, etc., so it wouldn't surprise me if they also invest in LENR. The governments are the real threat. The U.S. dollar is the world's reserve currency for oil. This means oil is traded
only in U.S. dollars, regardless of the countries involved. For example, Japan has to purchase oil in U.S. dollars. The U.S. is the only country who can legally print U.S. dollars. The U.S. purchases oil with the money they freely print, then the U.S. citizens pay again at the gas pump, which is given back to the oil producing countries. For example, the U.S purchases x amount of barrels from Saudi Arabia at the current market value with the money they freely print. Then the U.S. citizens pay Saudi Arabia again for x amount of barrels at the gas pump.
This means the oil producing countries of the world is being paid twice for the same purchase of oil in the U.S. This is the reason why gas is nearly twice as much in Sweden as it is in the U.S. All oil producing countries, except for Iraq and Iran, has agreed to pay the U.S. national debt if the U.S. makes a certain percentage of oil purchases from them, instead of using their own locally produced oil. The U.S. national debt is being paid at the gas pump. There is enough oil on the Northern slopes of Alaska to supply the U.S. with oil for more that 400 years. Not one drop of this oil is making it's way into the U.S. market. LENR and similar technologies making it's way into the market will guarantee the U.S national debt is not paid at the gas pump, which will devalue the U.S. dollar to a worthless level and the price of gas will rise to levels never seen in the U.S., and the oil producing countries of the world will be left to shoulder this burden. This will collapse the world economies, including the U.S. If this technology is allowed to make it to the market, then it's because they have a hidden agenda. There's been talk of de-listing the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency for oil, so something is definitely going on. Hopefully they can come to an agreement which is beneficial to all without a global economic collapse.
Gravock
gravock,
you are certainly depicting a scaring scenario, and no doubt a scenario that would be absolutely valid,
if it was not for the unpredictable new parameters we today have to take into consideration living in a world of change.
The energy situation today will strongly aid the swiftness of adaption to new alternative energy technologies,
and we may be standing at the brink of a completely new type of world economy, based upon completely new values.
We cannot exclude the possibility that Andrea Rossi actually got connections in the US government, backing him up.
It is well known that one of the chief executives in the Ampenergo board of directors,
Robert Gentile, was the former head at the office for fossile energy at the US Department
of Energy in the early 90s. Maybe there is a lot more positive things in action than meets the eye.
Andrea Rossi has several times emphasized the importance of doing the startup of his energy revolution in the US
without giving us any direct hardware clues to why this decision was made, more than just saying he wants to support the US.
Maybe his move is a planned scheme together with the US government to get the US economy back on its feet again,
contrary to the scenario depicted by gravock.
If the LENR revolution is introduced to the world market through the US only, this will give US an upper hand.
I am quite sure the E-cat trust has a team of lawyers working right now with law suits to be put at the Defkalion
or anyone else trying to copy the catalytic reaction patent which was filed several years before anyone else.
Andrea Rossi will fight them when the time comes, be sure of that. They stole his idea right in front of his eyes,
and we all know about his feelings for the Defkalion group.
If such a scenario is the case, the future LENR technology in its developed stage will once again make the US the world leading economy.
Everything will be run by this cheap and clean energy source, cars, homes, trains, ocean liners, electricity plants, space exploration, you name it.
I really hope this is the case, but it is really hard to be sure in any direction, there are so many unknown parameters at work here.
Interesting times it is for sure.
Gwandau
I'm with you on this summation Gwandau. There's no question that Defkalion are going to have to answer to their use of whatever catalyst Rossi's using. And I'm impressed by the fact that Rossi doesn't argue this. He plays his cards close. Which is as it should be. But the facts are too that if Defkalion are challenged - then in terms of international patent requirements - they can't be stopped from using the technology. They can only be called on to pay a royalty. And I very much doubt that they can get past their non disclosure agreements by simply making their units implode - if they're opened or inspected. That's ridiculous.
But I don't think that the USA are going to be able to keep a monopoly on this device. In fact - it's just NEVER going to happen. There's the moral need for underdeveloped countries to have reasonable and quick access to this - and that need is more than enough justification to not only produce their own generators - but to do so at a pace and at a level as required. Quite apart from which - I'm reasonably sure that there will indeed to multiple players here. No legislation can stop it. Precisely because the alternatives will be that we all will be able to build our own - should the purchase of it become fraught. For whatever reason.
Which means that the USA will need to 'rethink' it's debt obligations. But I also think that the changes will be that profound that debt considerations will become somewhat irrelevant. Is it a reasonable proposal to state that IF Rossi is transmuting elements with such ease - that we could thereby use the same processes to change 'whatever' into gold? Or Plantinum? And what will that do to the value of the USA's gold reserves? Or to any concept of a monetary exchange? When the metal market itself is depreciated because of this new potential for the cheap manufacture of just about anything at all? And that's still only touching on the fringes of what I suspect will become an archaic reference to the 'concept' of private property. If all property is thereby devalued - by sheer and easy access - then? What value does anything at all hold? Think of artificially manufactured diamonds. It will cost next to NOTHING to produce them.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Gwandau on March 02, 2012, 08:23:51 PM
Andrea Rossi has several times emphasized the importance of doing the startup of his energy revolution in the US
without giving us any direct hardware clues to why this decision was made, more than just saying he wants to support the US.
Maybe his move is a planned scheme together with the US government to get the US economy back on its feet again,
contrary to the scenario depicted by gravock.
This is not contrary to the scenario I depicted. Read my last sentence in my previous post. I said, "Hopefully they can come to an agreement which is beneficial to all without a global economic collapse." My previous post describes how things have been since Henry Kissenger and it is still true to this day. If our governments come together with the right intentions, then all may be well. If not, then things don't look good if LENR makes it to the market. I'm giving it to you straight up. I'm not going to sugar coat it. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. All we can do is hope for the best. The main intentions of my previous post was to show how the oil industry isn't as much of a threat as our governments are. And I gave reasons for this, which are accurate.
If changes aren't made to our current system of things and LENR makes it to the market, then it doesn't look good. It appears you can't handle the truth.
Gravock
Deleted.
Gravock
Gwandau,
The frequency range needed is 861 Mhz - 0.3484 MHz. The total wire-length must be an odd number of 1/4 waves along the wire-length to maximize the signal in the other end. The wire-length needed to achieve this is only 10 times greater than what is currently being used in the SEC, according to my calculations.
Gravock
@Everyone:
The U.S. national debt is a joke because every sane person knows it will never be paid under the current system. It has nothing to do with oil. It has to do with the Federal Reserve Central Bank (a private bank and not federal at all) which is obviously a perpetual debt based system. It is legalised fraud that one idiot (President Wilson) signed into law in 1913.
Here's the admission:
"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A
great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit. We are
no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by
conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion
and duress of a small group of dominant men." -- President Woodrow Wilson
John F. Kennedy was trying to get our currency backed by gold (trying to bring back the gold standard) once again as it used to be. He had also announced his plans to abolish the oil depletion allowance (an exclusive tax loop hole for only the oil cartels to enjoy), which threatened to cost the oil cartels over $300 million dollars per year (which was more like $30 billion dollars by today's standards). He was assassinated before he could accomplish either.
I find it ironic that our last economic crash involved both of the entities just mentioned above that JFK stood up against. The bubble was created by the banking industry and it was popped by the oil industry. It's like a spike setup in volleyball coordinated and carried out by two members of the same team that is extremely difficult to return (is very effective).
The bottom line is that the less money you have to pay for gasoline, the more you have to spend on other things. Period. This is when our economy flourishes. The oil cartels set the price. And just to test this out, the price of gasoline was over $5 a gallon at the time of our economic crash. Overnight, at the end of 2008, gasoline went from over $5 dollars a gallon to $1.87 a gallon (OVERNIGHT) where I live proving that the price of gasoline is controlled by the oil cartels.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 02, 2012, 08:44:35 PM
But I don't think that the USA are going to be able to keep a monopoly on this device. In fact - it's just NEVER going to happen.
@Rosemary:
I also agree with you. It would be like trying to keep the patent on automobiles so that there could only be one car manufacturing company. It's ridiculous.
Best Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 03, 2012, 12:48:43 AM
@Everyone:
The U.S. national debt is a joke because every sane person knows it will never be paid under the current system. It has nothing to do with oil. It has to do with the Federal Reserve Central Bank (a private bank and not federal at all) which is obviously a perpetual debt based system. It is legalised fraud that one idiot (President Wilson) signed into law in 1913.
You're absolutely right, the cause of our national debt has nothing to do with oil. But oil does have everything to do with paying this national debt under our current system of things. Not being able to pay the national debt will devalue the U.S. dollar to the point where it's not worth the paper it's printed on. One way or another, it's going to be a huge hit on our economy. One of the only ways out, is to have our national debt to be forgiven. I don't think this will occur under the current system of the Federal Reserve Central Bank. Abolishing the Federal Reserve will more than likely usher in the Amero. The U.S. will also more than likely be forced into accepting the Amero in return for a clean slate on it's national debt. This is where things are headed and it's in no way an accident. This is a good example in how a bad thing (the federal reserve bank) could lead to a greater bad thing (the Amero). Ask yourselves, who is really in control of the U.S? It's definetly not it's people nor it's own government.
Gravock
Hopefully you guys can see the larger picture now. The technology of LENR possibly appearing on the market could be a signal to the end of the sovereignty of the the U.S along with the end of the sovereignty of other countries. All of this has been in the works for quite some time now. It's been done by design. But look, in this scenario, we avoided a global economic collapse. But it's not beneficial to all is it? I hope there is another way out, but we need to realize this is being forced upon us. The only other option which I see is WWIII. But this isn't beneficial to all either, is it? Sorry for the doom and gloom, but maybe it's time to WAKE UP!
Gravock
Proposed flag for the North American Union. This makes me sick, and you guys sit back and think everything is fine.
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 02:42:50 AM
Proposed flag for the North American Union. This makes me sick, and you guys sit back and think everything is fine.
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 02:00:15 AM
snip...
LENR possibly appearing on the market could be a signal to the end of the sovereignty of the the U.S along with the end of the sovereignty of other countries.
...snip...
Sorry for the doom and gloom
...snip...
Gravock
Cheer up Gravock, there are two sides to every coin, and every half empty glass is half full.
Loss of sovereignty can be a good or bad thing, but only ever judged in hindsight. The USA is a great historical example of the loss of sovereignty of independent states. Those losses led to a greater national good under federal sovereignty for the new citizens of the emerging USA.
But, more than a century ago, members of Texas, New Mexico, etc, would have been lamenting just as you are, about the loss of their own sovereignty.
It is sad that the USA was forged through the pain and suffering of numerous wars before it became the USA that we have mostly known for the last century. The indian native wars, the war of independence, the spanish american wars, the civil war, etc, have all ultimately led to the current sovereignty you seem so afraid of losing.
As an Aussie, I look at a globe of the world, and, having met so many Canadians and Americans over the years, I just tend to think of the continent of North America, and jokingly call them all Camericans. And they all hate it ! LOL.
Australia isn't without it's history of war with the resident aborigines, but thank goodness, our emergence from a number of independent soveriegn states to international recognition as a federated sovereignty, was by a vote rather than a war.
And the rewards that our federation has provided us are many and great.
Cheers ... KneeDeep
Quote from: Gwandau on March 02, 2012, 03:47:16 PM
Star Scientific are still researching in how to mass produce the hard to get pions
to be used in their so called Muon Catalysed Fusion process. Nice idea but no break
through so far.
.....
..........
That leaves only the Brillouin Energy Corporation with their LENR concept using
helium and hydrogen. They are similarily to the BlackLight Power Inc.
( http://www.blacklightpower.com (http://www.blacklightpower.com/) ) utilizing different energy states of hydrogen in combination with helium.
Gwandau
I'm posting this for the record. The below text was posted by me back in September of 2010 in this thread (http://www.overunity.com/7144/how-the-major-systems-on-a-pleiadian-saucer-work/msg258708/topicseen/#msg258708), describing the processes mentioned above. There are many ways to do LENR, but recently I've been more focused on the process which Rossi is utilizing, since this is the process which most people appear to be more interested in.
LENR's can be obtained by turning hydrogen into helium at low temperature and bombarding deuterium with heavier mesons (pions), releasing a fabulous amount of energy, or by using ultra rays in an acid solution saturated with helium nuclei. The latter process is the most usual.
Here's how the transformation of ultra rays into usable energy takes place. If you allow radioactivity to pass through a magnetic field you will get alpha, beta and gamma rays. The first are helium nuclei, the second are electrons and the third are gamma rays, which are similar to ultra rays in their electromagnetic content. These three components of radioactivity are related.
The ultra rays, or gamma rays, on passing close to helium nuclei, bring about a deformation of space and give birth to electrons until their wave energy is expended. Thus, when gamma rays pass through an acid solution saturated with helium nuclei, the newly created electrons gyrate around the nuclei, but the acid prevents them from joining up with the nuclei, and they are collected on plates at the bottom of the apparatus. This provides an inexhaustible supply of energy which requires nothing more than a little acid solution and some helium nuclei.
Gravock
Quote from: hoptoad on March 03, 2012, 04:27:20 AM
Cheer up Gravock, there are two sides to every coin, and every half empty glass is half full.
Why does everyone want to separate one into two, such as the egg-chicken, electron-positron (matter-antimatter), heads-tails of a coin, etc. They are one and the same. People like to cause division. A house which is divided will fall and won't stand. If water is added to a glass, then it's half full. If water is being taken away from the glass, then it's half empty. So, if I say the glass is half empty, then we know someone is drinking or taking from the glass. If I say the glass is half full, then we know someone is adding water to the glass. Half full or half empty is the same measurement, so they are one, but they can be separated into two for an easier explanation, which people like to do, but we must remember that they are one or we are led down a path of wrong assumptions which lead to paradoxes. I'm not the one who needs cheering up. The ones who will need cheering up will be the ones who are in denial when this comes unexpectedly to them, because they were looking at the wrong side of the coin when they should have been looking at the coin itself.
Gravock
If LENR is a game changer, then how does it effect oil? It appears to me to only effect possible cost of electricity for home heating and such. Could LENR it in fact hurt the US economy since most of the US electricity is made using coal and natural gas? How many jobs would be lost?
As gasoline prices are going up and up, General Motors has just announced it temporarily suspended production of its Volt electric car, until demand catches up with supply. While battery problems impacted the sales somewhat, it really is the price of the electric cars that are holding back sales.
Even if the electricity were almost free to run automobiles, it would take years before there was any real impact on oil.
@maw2432,
If the LENR effect is what we think it is, we are just looking at the tip of the iceberg.
LENR is a portal to understanding and utilizing matter in a way not yet known to mankind.
LENR is our first real effective attempt to tamper with the very fundaments of matter and energy, and what lies ahead of us
is a revolution in the history of mankind into a social, economic and scientific situation never before existing on earth.
Anybody that think the LENR effect is but a small nuclear freak side effect to create heat have missed the whole point or lack vision.
Below is one of the alternatives that may lie ahead of us, if we take the opportunity to develop and harness this new knowledge in an altruistic way:
This may actually be our first chance in modern history to free ourselves from the grip of anybody taking advantage of a limited energy resource.
If we manage to do it the right way, in just a few generations everybody on earth will be "millionaires" regarding personal freedom.
Suddenly anybody born on earth will have the full opportunity to do whatever they would like to do with their lives.
A result of such a freedom will be the change our whole social and economical structure, leaving almost nothing as before.
Nobody want to toil, which is the very reason for any intelligent race in universe to spontaneously develop technology.
Technology is natural, it is part of the genetic code, and is the inevitable result of a developed consciousness.
The very nature of technology is service, and one day, if everything go allright, the full implementation of technology
will be at our service without even being visible. If any service system in your house brakes down, it gets repaired or replaced
without any human even being aware of it. If you need something, your house will create or get it for you.
That day it is all up to the individual how the Story of His/Her Life will be written.
The big chock about what we have found is yet to come.
It will start to show even in our own lifetime.
Just wait and see.
Gwandau
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 01:09:40 AM
Not being able to pay the national debt will devalue the U.S. dollar to the point where it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
Like I said before, the national debt will never be paid back under the current system and the dollar is already in essence not worth the paper it was printed on because it is not backed by anything tangible (such as gold) anymore. It's being printed up out of thin air at will by the Federal Reserve. Then the Federal Reserve is lending this "paper" to the U.S. government with interest attached. It only costs the Federal Reserve (a private bank) the labor of bank employees to issue the currency and manage the portfolio (keep track).
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 01:09:40 AM
One of the only ways out, is to have our national debt to be forgiven. I don't think this will occur under the current system of the Federal Reserve Central Bank.
I am with you on this point. The national debt can not be forgiven because the U.S. government owes this debt (money) to a private banking system which is not controlled by our government. Take a look at all of the internet stories related to just allowing our government to simply audit the Federal Reserve. It took an act of congress and the best that they could do was to obtain a partial audit (not even a full audit) of the Federal Reserve. That's what it took just to get a partial audit! An act of congress. Can you imagine how silly it would sound to ask that our debt be forgiven?
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 01:09:40 AM
Abolishing the Federal Reserve will more than likely usher in the Amero.
I don't agree with you here. I see the stronger possibility being returning to the gold standard which we were on before the Federal Reserve was swindled into its place.
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 01:09:40 AM
Ask yourselves, who is really in control of the U.S? It's definitely not it's people nor it's own government.
It's obviously been out of our (we the people) control for a long, long time. When American Presidential elections are decided by bullets (as was the case with JFK) instead of ballots, it (control) has obviously been circumvented.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 03, 2012, 06:27:00 PM
Like I said before, the national debt will never be paid back under the current system and the dollar is already in essence not worth the paper it was printed on because it is not backed by anything tangible (such as gold) anymore. It's being printed up out of thin air at will by the Federal Reserve. Then the Federal Reserve is lending this "paper" to the U.S. government with interest attached. It only costs the Federal Reserve (a private bank) the labor of bank employees to issue the currency and manage the portfolio (keep track).
The dollar currently has value even though it's not backed by gold or silver because other countries will accept the dollar at the foreign exchange currency rate. And even if it was backed by gold or silver, then LENR will eventually devalue the precious metals market. When you can trans-mutate abundant elements into precious metals, then what is there to back a currency with? Nothing, it will only be worth as much as a person is willing to receive for it. This means we can do away with the foreign exchange rate and go to a global currency, the Euro and the Amero while both currencies will have the same monetary value. LENR's will push us
more in this direction. Joe Champion has been claiming to be able to trans-mutate copper into gold for quite sometime now. He has facilities in operation at this very moment.
When and if the day comes when other countries no longer accept the dollar for trade or the foreign exchange rate for the dollar is extremely low will be the day it's not worth the paper it's printed on. Actually this is already happening around the world. American tourists are now finding more and more businesses no longer accepting the dollar when they travel. If we don't pay our debt, then other countries will no longer trade with us, demand more dollars for the same product, or refuse to accept our currency. They will then demand a new currency that is issued from a central bank outside the U.S. This is how I see it at the moment. It doesn't mean this is going to happen. It just means the conditions are right and there is a high probability for this to happen. I truly hope this doesn't happen. This is one thing I would love to be wrong on. However, I do feel it's important for people to at least be aware and understand our problems. I've heard many people say, "If we don't pay our debt, then they are just screwed, to bad for the people we owe." This is the mindset of society. What they don't realize is it may be too bad for us in failing to pay our debt.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 07:59:11 PM
When you can trans-mutate abundant elements into precious metals, then what is there to back a currency with? Nothing, it will only be worth as much as a person is willing to receive for it. This means we can do away with the foreign exchange rate and go to a global currency, the Euro and the Amero while both currencies will have the same monetary value. LENR's will push us more in this direction. Joe Champion has been claiming to be able to trans-mutate copper into gold for quite sometime now. He has facilities in operation at this very moment.
The transmutation of say, lead or copper into gold is a very interesting concept. The point is well taken regarding LENR's ability to (so far) transmutate nickel into copper.
There are companies right now that are able to "manufacture" diamonds but I believe they are as (if not more) expensive as naturally mined diamonds.
When the day comes that companies find the secret to manufacturing gold, the only currency that would make sense would be an electronic one with no coins or paper bills connected to it at all. This will make the currency more secure because nobody would ever be caught carrying cash and bank robbers could only steal bank account numbers and passwords from banks. Accounts that could be instantly flagged and frozen.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 03, 2012, 08:56:37 PM
There are companies right now that are able to "manufacture" diamonds but I believe they are as (if not more) expensive as naturally mined diamonds.
... I´ve heard that the problem with these diamonds was their perfection - which made them easy to identify as artifical.
But they even managed to manufacture diamonds with almost "natural" parameters ;-)))
Finally there was an arrangement with De´Beers.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_diamond
rgds.
Quote from: gravityblock on March 03, 2012, 09:47:13 AM
snip...
looking at the wrong side of the coin when they should have been looking at the coin itself.
snip...
Gravock
Gravock, do yourself a favour and don't ever gamble in a game of "two up". (Australians favourite form of gambling). While your busy looking at the coin itself, instead of taking a chance and nominating heads or tails, (either side of the coin) you'll always end up losing to the banker. :P
Quote from: hoptoad on March 04, 2012, 07:02:30 AM
Gravock, do yourself a favour and don't ever gamble in a game of "two up". (Australians favourite form of gambling). While your busy looking at the coin itself, instead of taking a chance and nominating heads or tails, (either side of the coin) you'll always end up losing to the banker. :P
This is why you study the coin itself (or the cards) and the game, so you will increase your chances of winning. If you're only betting on heads or tails at random with no strategy, then you're not decreasing your risks. If there's no technique or strategy for the game to be in my favor, then I wouldn't play. I would find another game. Personally I like black jack or craps, so I'll take your advice and not gamble in a game of 'two up'. Black jack and craps are slightly in the players favor if the player uses the right techniques. Remember, the banker doesn't want to lose, right? I've seen how they have shut-down black jack tables many times when the majority of the players are winning big. Somebody will spill their drink on the table or whatever. They do this when there is a black jack team playing at the table. The other tables will be crowded and full, and it will take the team a long time before they're all sitting together at another table where the cards are in there favor. This will force the team to leave with their earnings, and the house will minimize their losses. Another method is for them to change the decks.
Before you even sit down at a black jack table, you should study the cards to see if they're in the players favor or not. You don't just blindly sit down at any table and start playing, lol. And if you're always winning, then they'll tell you not to come back. If you want to win, then you better study the game. This way you will know if the coins, cards, or the game is in your favor or not. But, if you don't know how the game is being played, then you'll be a sure loser. The same applies to what is happening in the real world. Most of society has no idea on how the game is being played. One thing is for sure, LENR will be a game changer.
An interesting fact regarding casinos. Two-thirds of the people in the casinos at one time or another at least double their money, but they end up losing it back plus the money they went in with because they don't know when to leave.
Gravock
Good article on LENR.
Notice the affects on jobs near the end of the article.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/406981-cold-fusion-a-cure-for-high-gas-prices (http://seekingalpha.com/article/406981-cold-fusion-a-cure-for-high-gas-prices)
Also see these documents
http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2006/2006Widom-UltraLowMomentumNeutronCatalyzed.pdf (http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2006/2006Widom-UltraLowMomentumNeutronCatalyzed.pdf)
http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v75/p617/fulltext.pdf (http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v75/p617/fulltext.pdf)
Quote from: maw2432 on March 04, 2012, 05:11:19 PM
Good article on LENR.
Notice the affects on jobs near the end of the article.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/406981-cold-fusion-a-cure-for-high-gas-prices (http://seekingalpha.com/article/406981-cold-fusion-a-cure-for-high-gas-prices)
Also see these documents
http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2006/2006Widom-UltraLowMomentumNeutronCatalyzed.pdf (http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2006/2006Widom-UltraLowMomentumNeutronCatalyzed.pdf)
http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v75/p617/fulltext.pdf (http://www.ias.ac.in/pramana/v75/p617/fulltext.pdf)
@maw2432
I must agree as I found it to be very informative to anyone that hasn't received the news about this revolutionary new technology. It's a lengthy article but the author covered a significant amount of ground for one "article".
I did notice the predictions concerning jobs in the energy sector/industry and I would have to agree with them. New technology always carries the potential to wipe out an existing industry that quickly becomes obsolete (or unnecessary) due to advances in science. Take the introduction of the telegraph, for example. Think of all those people that lost their jobs with the Pony Express. Their jobs were wiped out by a cheaper and better (faster) form of communication.
The only thing I disagree with is the prediction regarding a negative impact on our economy. Like I have said all along; the more money the consumer has left after paying his energy bills, the more money he can spend on goods and services which stimulates our economy. It also means that businesses will be able to save massive amounts of money allowing them to hire additional employees (creating even more jobs) and expand.
Another huge boost to our economy will be the stabilization of energy prices. The oil cartels and the energy sector as a whole will never again be in a position to destabilize the entire economy and send negative shock waves through our financial system again.
Would saying goodbye to all of the nuclear power plants bother me greatly? Not in the least. They are all accidents waiting to happen (such as fukushima) and we are running out of room to hide (safely dispose of) all of the radioactive waste.
Regards,
Chess
Hello Chess,
Your post here, as ever, is spot on. And I also read that link that Maw gave us. EXCELLENT coverage. Intrigues me that misdirection needs so little effort. And a certain Dr Vest - had a 'vested' interest. LOL. Couldn't resist the pun.
Quote from: chessnyt on March 04, 2012, 11:17:11 PM
@maw2432
I must agree as I found it to be very informative to anyone that hasn't received the news about this revolutionary new technology. It's a lengthy article but the author covered a significant amount of ground for one "article".
I did notice the predictions concerning jobs in the energy sector/industry and I would have to agree with them. New technology always carries the potential to wipe out an existing industry that quickly becomes obsolete (or unnecessary) due to advances in science. Take the introduction of the telegraph, for example. Think of all those people that lost their jobs with the Pony Express. Their jobs were wiped out by a cheaper and better (faster) form of communication.
The only thing I disagree with is the prediction regarding a negative impact on our economy. Like I have said all along; the more money the consumer has left after paying his energy bills, the more money he can spend on goods and services which stimulates our economy. It also means that businesses will be able to save massive amounts of money allowing them to hire additional employees (creating even more jobs) and expand.
Another huge boost to our economy will be the stabilization of energy prices. The oil cartels and the energy sector as a whole will never again be in a position to destabilize the entire economy and send negative shock waves through our financial system again.
Would saying goodbye to all of the nuclear power plants bother me greatly? Not in the least. They are all accidents waiting to happen (such as fukushima) and we are running out of room to hide (safely dispose of) all of the radioactive waste.
Regards,
Chess
I love the fact that this news is spreading - AND FAST. And I love it that it shows the EFFORT that's required to try and discredit a new technology. And MORE TO THE POINT. I love it that these technologies get revived. ;D NOTWITHSTANDING. ;D It speaks well of our natural inquisitive natures to find out the truth for ourselves.
And I still LOVE THIS THREAD. Thanks for initiating Chess. Cold Fusion is the best thing that's happened in the history of science - BAR NONE. We just need to see where all this will take us. And I'm certainly up for the ride.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
March 23: another presentation on LENR results:
University of Illinois: "A Game-Changing Power Source Based on Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (LENRs)"
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/3051.pdf (http://www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Elpi%2Eusra%2Eedu%2Fmeetings%2Fnets2012%2Fpdf%2F3051%2Epdf&urlhash=IqO4&_t=tracking_anet)
To be presented March 23, at The Woodslands, TX at NETS (Nuclear and Emerging Technologies for Space meeting)
http://anstd.ans.org/NETS2012/NETS2012Home.html (http://www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fanstd%2Eans%2Eorg%2FNETS2012%2FNETS2012Home%2Ehtml&urlhash=yNAJ&_t=tracking_anet)
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/nets2012/pdf/sess301.pdf (http://www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Elpi%2Eusra%2Eedu%2Fmeetings%2Fnets2012%2Fpdf%2Fsess301%2Epdf&urlhash=eo6S&_t=tracking_anet)
Some more background of the LENR work by the University of Illinois, particular by George Miley, can be found here:
http://e-catsite.com/2011/11/08/report-on-a-conversation-with-george-miley/ (http://www.linkedin.com/redirect?url=http%3A%2F%2Fe-catsite%2Ecom%2F2011%2F11%2F08%2Freport-on-a-conversation-with-george-miley%2F&urlhash=lO4-&_t=tracking_disc)
This last update from e-cat.com is really nothing new, but it at least confirms
the present stage of the Andrea Rossi project.
http://ecat.com/news/andrea-rossi-ecat-march-update (http://ecat.com/news/andrea-rossi-ecat-march-update)
The link below is for anyone that hasn't watched this absolutely hilarious clip about the e-cat revolution,
posted early in this thread by chessnyt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX0vcU4iedQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX0vcU4iedQ)
Gwandau
And of course, no one can put their hands on one or show anyone using an 'E-Cat' to power anything in the real world. Just like Steorn and 10,000 others. Rossi is really over the top though, with the constant updates on how he is refining his BS 'technology' and churning them out at the rate of 1,000,000 units per year in a fictional factory which, of course, no one has seen in action. Amazing.
happyfunball,
If you fail to understand why Andrea Rossi is forced to enter the market this way,
you really have a lot to learn about the difficulties to apply controversial inventions.
He is fighting a war not only against prejudices, but the organized opposition to changes as well.
He knows this is the only way to do it without going open source.
This is for real. LENR and LANR is confirmed worldwide by a lot of independent instituitions, including MIT.
You are standing at a fork in the road. Update your information a bit more before you choose which road to take.
Otherwise your comments will risk being regarded as troll behaviour.
Gwandau
Quote from: happyfunball on March 10, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
And of course, no one can put their hands on one...
Yes, you can put your hands on one for $1.5 million dollars.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 10, 2012, 03:42:13 PM
Rossi is really over the top though, with the constant updates on how he is refining his BS 'technology'...
This technology (which you refer to as "BS technology") is already being endorsed by NASA so are you a credentialed scientist whose credentials are above that of the scientists at NASA?
Now, this is what REAL CREDENTIALED scientists are saying about LENR technology (I knew you would forever treasure these direct quotes so you're quite welcome in advance):
“Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…†â€"-Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center
“Energy density many orders of magnitude over chemical.†--Michael A. Nelson, NASA
“Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything but synthetic organic chemistry.†â€"-Dr. Joseph M. Zawodny, NASA
LENR has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf)
Can we see your PUBLISHED results, happyfunball? I'm sure you have them with you somewhere...we'll be waiting ::)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 10, 2012, 06:13:07 PM
Yes, you can put your hands on one for $1.5 million dollars.
This technology (which you refer to as "BS technology") is already being endorsed by NASA so are you a credentialed scientist whose credentials are above that of the scientists at NASA?
Now, this is what REAL CREDENTIALED scientists are saying about LENR technology (I knew you would forever treasure these direct quotes so you're quite welcome in advance):
“Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…†â€"-Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center
“Energy density many orders of magnitude over chemical.†--Michael A. Nelson, NASA
“Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything but synthetic organic chemistry.†â€"-Dr. Joseph M. Zawodny, NASA
LENR has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf)
Can we see your PUBLISHED results, happyfunball? I'm sure you have them with you somewhere...we'll be waiting ::)
Regards,
Chess
Brilliantly answered Chess. I looked at Happy's post and thought about replying - but didn't have the energy - nor anywhere near the skill with which you've managed this. But Happy has always been somewhat pessimistic. His name is a misnomer. LOL. You need to cheer up Happy. Live up to your name. There's all kinds of hopeful happenings - all over the place. And Rossi's E-cat is most certainly my own preference. The best reminder that I can find that there's a hope for our futures.
Well done Chess and nice to see Happy around even if he's still as morbid as ever.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Quote from: chessnyt on March 10, 2012, 06:13:07 PM
Yes, you can put your hands on one for $1.5 million dollars.
This technology (which you refer to as "BS technology") is already being endorsed by NASA so are you a credentialed scientist whose credentials are above that of the scientists at NASA?
Now, this is what REAL CREDENTIALED scientists are saying about LENR technology (I knew you would forever treasure these direct quotes so you're quite welcome in advance):
“Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…†â€"-Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center
“Energy density many orders of magnitude over chemical.†--Michael A. Nelson, NASA
“Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything but synthetic organic chemistry.†â€"-Dr. Joseph M. Zawodny, NASA
LENR has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf)
Can we see your PUBLISHED results, happyfunball? I'm sure you have them with you somewhere...we'll be waiting ::)
Regards,
Chess
LOL $1,500,000.00 and no trace of one powering anything anywhere, but hey we have a bunch of meaningless quotes and worthless testing which might be worth $150.00 if you're selling jokes. Pure comedy.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 10, 2012, 07:11:14 PM
LOL $1,500,000.00 and no trace of one powering anything anywhere, but hey we have a bunch of meaningless quotes and worthless testing which might be worth $150.00 if you're selling jokes. Pure comedy.
@happyfunball:
Just as I thought. Not one peer reviewed published result to the contrary in response. Just more unsubstantiated dribble from an uncredentialed amateur.
When you dismiss meaningful quotes and announcements from an organization such as NASA, how can you seriously expect people to listen to you? Do you really believe that people are going to believe your own personal meaningless quotes over those from NASA scientists? Are you even reading your own opinions before you click on the post button?
I'll even bet that you didn't read even one published peer reviewed paper that I posted a link to.
Ignoring the experts among the scientific community and saying it just isn't so will not make LENR technology go away no matter how much you would like it to. There's just an avalanche of evidence (very well documented peer reviewed published papers) behind this new technology that can not be stopped or discredited by amateur opinion. This is why I backed my statements up with factual quotes and scientific published documentation. Obviously, you have no factual evidence to discredit the legitimately credentialed scientists from NASA that I quoted (or you would have done so).
In my last posting, I neglected to also mention the recently released video from NASA. Here's a link to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ZEmsw9pPw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ZEmsw9pPw)
I hoped you watched the video, happyfunball. Did I mention NASA?
The joke, happyfunball, is thinking that people who read your posts will take your word over the words of many NASA scientists.
I did mention the NASA video didn't I? Did I remember to mention the 1000's of positive (PUBLISHED) results in peer reviewed scientific journals around the world concerning LENR technology?
Oh, and when can we expect your PUBLISHED results from your lab, happyfunball?
Regards,
Chess
P.S. Did I mention NASA...as in the rocket scientists?
Quote from: chessnyt on March 10, 2012, 09:04:20 PM
@happyfunball:
Just as I thought. Not one peer reviewed published result to the contrary in response. Just more unsubstantiated dribble from an uncredentialed amateur.
When you dismiss meaningful quotes and announcements from an organization such as NASA, how can you seriously expect people to listen to you? Do you really believe that people are going to believe your own personal meaningless quotes over those from NASA scientists? Are you even reading your own opinions before you click on the post button?
I'll even bet that you didn't read even one published peer reviewed paper that I posted a link to.
Ignoring the experts among the scientific community and saying it just isn't so will not make LENR technology go away no matter how much you would like it to. There's just an avalanche of evidence (very well documented peer reviewed published papers) behind this new technology that can not be stopped or discredited by amateur opinion. This is why I backed my statements up with factual quotes and scientific published documentation. Obviously, you have no factual evidence to discredit the legitimately credentialed scientists from NASA that I quoted (or you would have done so).
In my last posting, I neglected to also mention the recently released video from NASA. Here's a link to it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ZEmsw9pPw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ZEmsw9pPw)
I hoped you watched the video, happyfunball. Did I mention NASA?
The joke, happyfunball, is thinking that people who read your posts will take your word over the words of many NASA scientists.
I did mention the NASA video didn't I? Did I remember to mention the 1000's of positive (PUBLISHED) results in peer reviewed scientific journals around the world concerning LENR technology?
Oh, and when can we expect your PUBLISHED results from your lab, happyfunball?
Regards,
Chess
P.S. Did I mention NASA...as in the rocket scientists?
None of the NASA quotes lend a scintilla of credence to Rossi's claims. They're just quotes, no tangible working device. It's all just hopes and dreams, while Rossi (With Sterling's help) is busy setting up the illusion of legitimacy in hopes of luring some poor sucker in, which I fear has already happened.
@happyfunball:
You obviously have no idea how science works concerning peer review published papers. You obviously have no idea why they are so significant.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 10, 2012, 11:16:43 PM
"None of the NASA quotes lend a scintilla of credence to Rossi's claims."
You would be absolutely correct if Rossi's devices were based on gravity/leverage or some other technology not being endorsed by NASA and MIT (just to name a few). Since Rossi's devices are based on LENR (and it is clearly accepted by major mainstream science), there is nothing really suprising about them at all. You simply CAN NOT attack Rossi without attacking NASA at the same time as this is the same technology (LENR) that Rossi's devices are based on. He's not claiming to have a selfrunning magnet motor here.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 10, 2012, 11:16:43 PM
"It's all just hopes and dreams..."
The following quotes are NOT hopes and dreams, happyfunball. They are a matter of fact. There is overwhelming amounts (below, Bushnell states "hundreds") of experimental evidence
to confirm LENR as a real and legitimate technology. There is no evidence to the contrary that you possess.
“Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…†â€"-Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center (
note the term used here is "real". Might want note that one)
“Energy density many orders of magnitude over chemical.†--Michael A. Nelson, NASA
“Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything but synthetic organic chemistry.†â€"-Dr. Joseph M. Zawodny, NASA (
remember...you can not replace fossil fuels with dreams)
LENR has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf)
You are certainly not going to win this argument as the deck is hopelessly stacked against you. First you state that NASA's official public statements are "meaningless" and now you have switched to state that they lend no credence to Rossi's device. Now which is it, happyfunball?
(This is the part, however, that has my laughing myself to tears when reading your replies) And finally, do you really (I mean seriously) think you are better qualified than NASA scientists to debunk LENR technology that the E-cat is based on?
Cheers,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 11, 2012, 12:18:14 AM
@happyfunball:
You obviously have no idea how science works concerning peer review published papers. You obviously have no idea why they are so significant.
You would be absolutely correct if Rossi's devices were based on gravity/leverage or some other technology not being endorsed by NASA and MIT (just to name a few). Since Rossi's devices are based on LENR (and it is clearly accepted by major mainstream science), there is nothing really suprising about them at all. You simply CAN NOT attack Rossi without attacking NASA at the same time as this is the same technology (LENR) that Rossi's devices are based on. He's not claiming to have a selfrunning magnet motor here.
The following quotes are NOT hopes and dreams, happyfunball. They are a matter of fact. There is overwhelming amounts (below, Bushnell states "hundreds") of experimental evidence
to confirm LENR as a real and legitimate technology. There is no evidence to the contrary that you possess.
“Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…†â€"-Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center (note the term used here is "real". Might want note that one)
“Energy density many orders of magnitude over chemical.†--Michael A. Nelson, NASA
“Total replacement of fossil fuels for everything but synthetic organic chemistry.†â€"-Dr. Joseph M. Zawodny, NASA (remember...you can not replace fossil fuels with dreams)
LENR has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers:
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJtallyofcol.pdf)
You are certainly not going to win this argument as the deck is hopelessly stacked against you. First you state that NASA's official public statements are "meaningless" and now you have switched to state that they lend no credence to Rossi's device. Now which is it, happyfunball?
(This is the part, however, that has my laughing myself to tears when reading your replies) And finally, do you really (I mean seriously) think you are better qualified than NASA scientists to debunk LENR technology that the E-cat is based on?
Cheers,
Chess
Lol meanwhile LENR power is nowhere to be found, and Rossi has the goofball crowd frothing at the mouth over random unrelated quotes. Pure comedy.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 11, 2012, 12:53:19 AM
Lol meanwhile LENR power is nowhere to be found, and Rossi has the goofball crowd frothing at the mouth over random unrelated quotes. Pure comedy.
Just one question. Have you read at least one peer-reviewed report about cold fusion (option A) or are you just talking about your fantasies (option B)?
Quote from: jan.kolar on March 11, 2012, 07:05:18 AM
Just one question. Have you read at least one peer-reviewed report about cold fusion (option A) or are you just talking about your fantasies (option B)?
Sure I've read a few, but am not an expert. Please explain how they are at all related to Rossi's scam.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 10, 2012, 06:18:50 PM
Brilliantly answered Chess. I looked at Happy's post and thought about replying - but didn't have the energy - nor anywhere near the skill with which you've managed this. But Happy has always been somewhat pessimistic. His name is a misnomer. LOL. You need to cheer up Happy. Live up to your name. There's all kinds of hopeful happenings - all over the place. And Rossi's E-cat is most certainly my own preference. The best reminder that I can find that there's a hope for our futures.
Well done Chess and nice to see Happy around even if he's still as morbid as ever.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
@Rosemary:
Nothing dispels the lies people try to plant here like the truth. Just as darkness can only prevail in the absence of light, so a lie can only survive in the absence of the truth.
I love killing bad seeds before they have a place to grow.
Nice to see you, as always Rosemary
Warmest Regards,
Chess
Looks like Sterling has had it with Rossi over at PesWiki.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 04, 2012, 11:25:44 PM
Hello Chess,
Your post here, as ever, is spot on. And I also read that link that Maw gave us. EXCELLENT coverage. Intrigues me that misdirection needs so little effort. And a certain Dr Vest - had a 'vested' interest. LOL. Couldn't resist the pun.
I love the fact that this news is spreading - AND FAST. And I love it that it shows the EFFORT that's required to try and discredit a new technology. And MORE TO THE POINT. I love it that these technologies get revived. ;D NOTWITHSTANDING. ;D It speaks well of our natural inquisitive natures to find out the truth for ourselves.
And I still LOVE THIS THREAD. Thanks for initiating Chess. Cold Fusion is the best thing that's happened in the history of science - BAR NONE. We just need to see where all this will take us. And I'm certainly up for the ride.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
@Rosemary:
I'm glad you're enjoying it here ;D This technology will be able to transition us to prosperity once again where we haven't been for quite some time now. That is where I believe this is heading.
"We shall see..." said the Zen Master.
Best Regards,
Chess
Cold Fusion Now shot a 30-minute video interview with Andrea Rossi Friday March 2, while chatting with the inventor in his Miami Beach, Florida office.
http://coldfusionnow.org/?p=15088
I honestly hope to see this come through - to see it on the shelves. But after viewing the list of allegations, fines, and court proceedings, there's a bit more doubt involved. I think that there could have been other forces at work against Rossi, both political and economical. Not to mention the nature of things not quite going right. But all of this really clouds the issue. Videos and reports and the like can all be, adjusted - EITHER way.
Today I read the Army Report on TEG, where Rossi demonstrated an efficeincy of 20%, shortly after, his building caught on fire. Definately shadey work going on. But who? Once we know who, we should know why.
The real question is, will Rossi's LENR make it to the market, and how effective will it be for individuals? That I believe will shatter all doubt.
Bad news and good news.
Let's take the bad news first:
As WindsorFarmer indicates, now we see the first signs of actions taken to deliberately delay the e-cat project.
A complaint has been filed with the FBR (Bureau of Radiation Control) at the Florida Department of Health by a party from Las Vegas, Nevada,
alleging that Mr. Rossi may be building nuclear reactors in a Miami condominium complex.
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2012/03/12/trouble-for-andrea-rossi-and-his-e-cat/ (http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2012/03/12/trouble-for-andrea-rossi-and-his-e-cat/)
If the FBR draw the conclusion that there actually is a nuclear reaction going on in Andrea Rossi's reactors, they will shut him down,
since building nuclear reactors withing the city limits of Miami or any other US city is violating the federal law.
Here's the good news, a little old, but I havent seen it posted on this thread:
Rossi plans for a self sustained heat plant creating its own electricity:
March 4, 2012 - "As Andrea Rossi discusses the commercialization of E-Cat Technology one thing seems to becoming clearer by the day:
he is focusing much more now on the production of electricity. Two thermal energy producing E-Cats have been designed,
the 1 MW plant now on the market, and the 10 kW units that Leonardo Corp is gearing up to mass produce. ....
Now Rossi is talking about making something fifty times as large (he says 15 MW of electric power which at 30 per cent efficiency would require
50 MW of thermal power) with the intention of making a closed-loop self sustaining plant which will create enough excess electricity to drive itself."
OK, if he says that 15 MW of electric power with 30 percent efficiency would require 50 MW of thermal power, this would equally mean
that you are able to generate 5 KW of electric power out of two modified 10KW e-cats, given that we have an effective enough heat to electricity generator.
Here the circular motion air pressure engines or other high efficience steam turbine engines come into the picture.
By connecting e-cats serially we won't lose the function of the electrical control units that keeps the e-cats running, we just prolong
the self sustain mode, and since the temperature of the reactors need to be kept at around 450 degrees Celius to work properly, the idea
of dismantling the heat exchanger and replacing it with the boiler of the steam engine seems an interesting option.
As far as I am concerned, this is the only option, since I never will succumb to paying the electricity supplier for 24KW a day just for some extra heat.
Gwandau
Quote from: WindsorFarmer on March 14, 2012, 04:56:10 PM
Today I read the Army Report on TEG, where Rossi demonstrated an efficiency of 20%, shortly after, his building caught on fire. Definitely shadey work going on. But who? Once we know who, we should know why.
@WindsorFarmer:
Whenever things get hazy, it's then time to follow the money.
o Who gains by eliminating (or delaying the release of the E-Cat) Rossi?
o Who loses the most money if Rossi's products get into the world economy?
o Which country has almost all of its eggs (number one export) in one single basket?
o Which country would be bankrupt after the E-Cat makes their number one export nearly worthless?
o Who has the largest energy monopoly (could be a corp. like Enron or oil cartel) in the world?
o Who has TRILLIONS of dollars invested in equipment alone used to harvest energy?
These are some of the preliminary questions one must ask when beginning to follow the money because the love of money was not labeled "the root of all evil" for absolutely no reason at all ;)
Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
Here's some interesting news concerning LENR being taught currently at MIT. Sterling Allan from PESN.com was informed yesterday that Dr. Mitch Swartz's demo is STILL RUNNING!
"I talked with Dr. Mitch Swartz of MIT yesterday, and he said that his demo that he did for the "Cold Fusion 101" class is still running, and has been doing so continuously for two months, at 7-times overunity." --Sterling D. Allan; March 20, 2012
7 times OVERUNITY is some pretty impressive results! I wonder if they offer an on-line Cold Fusion 101 course?!?
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: nfeijo on February 12, 2012, 08:38:56 AM
Concerning low efficiency of transformation of heat in electricity please check nitinol engines.
nfeijo posted earlier about nitinol engines, which is the today OU startpage video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoAFc_DeWVQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoAFc_DeWVQ)
This is as far as I am concerned the perfect way to create electricity enough to drive the e-cat.
Sorry nfeijo, that I missed your valuable input.
Gwandau
Always a pleasure to get back here for some much needed R&R guys. And always a pleasure to read these thoughtful posts Chess, Gwandau - all. I've also been greatly heartened by the news about nitinol. Always the last to hear the news. But delighted to know of this. It occurs to me that perhaps Rossi could exploit these nitinol properties to let all his heat run those motors. To me it would be a marriage in heaven. Apparently it is easily managed as there's a direct transfer of heat to motion.
I also see Gwandau's complaint as valid. Just to heat one's house helps - but it will never satisfy our need to decouple from our energy monopolists. But it's certainly all good news. I'm reasonably certain that no-one can prevent licensing for the manufacture of these generators while there's no evidence of gamma ray emissions. It just puts Rossi in the embarrassing position of having to deny any nuclear reaction based on the lack of this. But who cares? It's the technology we need. And rather critically.
Anyway all, just to let you know. It's a real comfort to see those of you who are working so hard to keep this positive news in focus. Much appreciated, and by the looks of your stats, by many more than just me.
Kindest and best to you all, and again, many thanks for this hard work.
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 22, 2012, 11:02:18 PM
Always a pleasure to get back here for some much needed R&R guys. And always a pleasure to read these thoughtful posts Chess, Gwandau - all. I've also been greatly heartened by the news about nitinol. Always the last to hear the news. But delighted to know of this. It occurs to me that perhaps Rossi could exploit these nitinol properties to let all his heat run those motors. To me it would be a marriage in heaven. Apparently it is easily managed as there's a direct transfer of heat to motion.
Yes, the nitinol engines appear to be one splendid way to harness the heat produced by the home E-Cat (as only a 20 degree temperature differential is required) versions and convert this heat directly and efficiently into mechanical force (to propel an electric generator). Yes, there are always losses during any energy conversion but the nitinol engines may prove to be the most efficient route for the E-Cat.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 22, 2012, 11:02:18 PM
I also see Gwandau's complaint as valid. Just to heat one's house helps - but it will never satisfy our need to decouple from our energy monopolists. But it's certainly all good news. I'm reasonably certain that no-one can prevent licensing for the manufacture of these generators while there's no evidence of gamma ray emissions. It just puts Rossi in the embarrassing position of having to deny any nuclear reaction based on the lack of this. But who cares? It's the technology we need. And rather critically.
I'm almost sure that the Wright Brothers had initially hoped to be able to offer international flights carrying hundreds of passengers at a time in less than 8 hours as soon as the Kittyhawk flight proved successful, however, this was not very realistic. Try to keep in mind that even airplanes took decades just to go from propeller driven to jet engine driven aircraft.
The E-Cat is no different. It's new technology that must still undergo years of development and adaptation before arriving at the home generator stage. Even in its infant stage (home heating of water and air), it is important that it gets out into the mainstream to insure that its suppression will become increasingly difficult if not impossible thus insuring its further development and implementation.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 22, 2012, 11:02:18 PM
Anyway all, just to let you know. It's a real comfort to see those of you who are working so hard to keep this positive news in focus. Much appreciated, and by the looks of your stats, by many more than just me.
I must agree. There has been overwhelming participation by the readers of this thread to keep the E-Cat and the technology that it is based on from being dismissed and swept under the carpet.
I am about to start a new round of postings based on highlights from Mr. Rossi's most recent interview which occurred earlier this month.
Until then, Cheers,
Chess
@Everyone:
Andrea Rossi's most recent interview was conducted by staff from ColdFusionNow.org at his Florida office and lasted about 30 minutes.
The following excerpt is one highlight from this interview:
Interviewer: "Can I ask you why does the powder work so well to create the large amounts of energy?"
Rossi: "Well, the powder is better than the bars for a very simple reason. The surface of contact is enormously superior. If you don't use the powder but you use the bar, the only contact surface with the atom of hydrogen is just the surface, the few fractions of square inch, that are in contact with hydrogen. If you have the powder, you have a universe within which every star is a particle of nickel with all it universe inside...therefore its contact surface is infinite."
So here, Rossi makes it very clear why nickel powder is superior to nickel in the solid bar form. It's all about having the maximum contact surface area to facilitate a healthy reaction.
This preceding line of logic makes perfect sense to me because I am involved with hydrogen production from electrolysis cells where maximum surface area is advantageous to me when it comes to my hydrogen fuel cell plates.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 24, 2012, 10:48:03 PM
Yes, the nitinol engines appear to be one splendid way to harness the heat produced by the home E-Cat (as only a 20 degree temperature differential is required) versions and convert this heat directly and efficiently into mechanical force (to propel an electric generator). Yes, there are always losses during any energy conversion but the nitinol engines may prove to be the most efficient route for the E-Cat.
Chess
Chess,
Tell me again, why can't one simply use the 'steam' that the E-cat's going to provide - to drive any engine? Surely we're not precluded from using that benefit to drive a steam generator? It only needs to ouput 220 volts at plus/minus 60 Hertz. In fact, I can't think what's to stop us from applying that benefit to any uses at all - at the buyer's choosing. Is this right? I know we discussed this. I just can't remember the conclusion.
I'm awfully glad to see how Rossi fielded that 'inquiry' into the toxicity of his E-cat. Seems to have done the trick - because, indeed, he is NOT manufacturing anything...YET. But it concerns me that this may yet happen again when he opens up for production and business. What would he do then? Because he's likely then to get the full force of an attack. And I also see that he's going to establish his plants in America. Perhaps the Government will rally. Otherwise I suspect they'll lose the initiative of some valuable potential exports. I do hope so. I do hope that there's enough potential income there to justify protection - of some sort.
And it's a thorn in the side to think that he's co-operating with existing utility suppliers to simply supplement their nuclear technologies with cold fusion technologies. I know it's probably in the interests of enabling a 'smooth transition'. But I'd hate to see those suppliers muscle in on the game and maybe ensure that we're forever gridlocked. Please God. Then we'd all need to rally really quickly. I've got the dreaded feeling that we'll all be able to buy ONE E-cat per household - and more will be taxed. And then some ghastly legislation ensuring that inspectors can 'inspect' to ensure that there's no 'misapplication' and on and on. One's worst nightmare. Big Brother growing ever bigger.
Anyway. Our real hopes lie with the likes of you and others here who would be able to reverse engineer as required. That way we - hopefully - wont even be dependent on buying that E-cat. We can just make our own. And that means - DON'T BY DEFKALION. Their Hyperion is designed to 'self destruct' if you dare look inside. What a cheek.
Kindest as ever
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 26, 2012, 03:15:05 AM
Chess,
Tell me again, why can't one simply use the 'steam' that the E-cat's going to provide - to drive any engine? Surely we're not precluded from using that benefit to drive a steam generator? It only needs to ouput 220 volts at plus/minus 60 Hertz. In fact, I can't think what's to stop us from applying that benefit to any uses at all - at the buyer's choosing. Is this right? I know we discussed this. I just can't remember the conclusion.
There are a couple of issues with steam based electricity generation. One is the temperature (which is actually lower in the home based units) and the other would be "wet" steam. The latter will utterly ruin any steam turbine (as dry steam is needed to drive them). The other will limit you, pretty much by default, to a piston type steam engine which requires lubrication and usually a water/oil separator system on the back end.
Also, the piston type steam engines are less efficient than the steam turbines are and they run at lower RPMs. Will they work? Sure, but you also need a boiler in order to build steam pressure which is VERY DANGEROUS to incorporate if you do not know what you are doing. I've seen these things explode and take out reinforced concrete walls. Also, they must be certified by the city which means you need a permit to even operate one legally. Believe me, this is a good thing!
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 26, 2012, 03:15:05 AM
I'm awfully glad to see how Rossi fielded that 'inquiry' into the toxicity of his E-cat. Seems to have done the trick - because, indeed, he is NOT manufacturing anything...YET. But it concerns me that this may yet happen again when he opens up for production and business. What would he do then? Because he's likely then to get the full force of an attack. And I also see that he's going to establish his plants in America. Perhaps the Government will rally. Otherwise I suspect they'll lose the initiative of some valuable potential exports. I do hope so. I do hope that there's enough potential income there to justify protection - of some sort.
Once he gets the U.L. approval, he's pretty much home free. I'm sure he is waiting for this approval before operating here in the U.S.
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 26, 2012, 03:15:05 AM
And it's a thorn in the side to think that he's cooperating with existing utility suppliers to simply supplement their nuclear technologies with cold fusion technologies. I know it's probably in the interests of enabling a 'smooth transition'. But I'd hate to see those suppliers muscle in on the game and maybe ensure that we're forever gridlocked. Please God. Then we'd all need to rally really quickly. I've got the dreaded feeling that we'll all be able to buy ONE E-cat per household - and more will be taxed. And then some ghastly legislation ensuring that inspectors can 'inspect' to ensure that there's no 'misapplication' and on and on. One's worst nightmare. Big Brother growing ever bigger.
Anyway. Our real hopes lie with the likes of you and others here who would be able to reverse engineer as required. That way we - hopefully - wont even be dependent on buying that E-cat. We can just make our own. And that means - DON'T BY DEFKALION. Their Hyperion is designed to 'self destruct' if you dare look inside. What a cheek.
If any or all of the aforementioned "Big Brother" predictions come to pass, I am absolutely sure that this whole technology will go underground just as alcohol production did during prohibition. If MIT can do this with ease (and without Rossi's secret catalyst) in a classroom, then so can our gear heads and teach the rest of us how to do this in our garages.
Best Regards,
Chess
New to cold fusion. Does the overunity community have enough understanding of Rossy or other cold fusion device to replicate it in case the technology is blocked ? I am asking because i would be surprized this will replace oil or other current form of energy in the short to middle term, there are too many interest and cartels affected. It will be kept mute for an other 25 years or at least as long as oil brings hundred of billions to companies or countries and d uring those 25 years only renegates will generate cold fusion in their garage for their home supply. Just my opinion
Also. Are we 100 per cent sure this is real and that all people or companies promising cold fusion are not genious con artists ,
Quote from: parisd on March 27, 2012, 11:40:00 AMAre we 100 per cent sure this is real and that all people or companies promising cold fusion are not genious con artists ,
Rossi is obviously a con man and has behaved like one from the beginning. Incomplete worthless tests, bs claims of anonymous buyers, bs claims of factory production. The rose colored glasses crew has been reduced to random quotes by NASA scientists and others about the viability of LENR. No working device anyone can put their hands on. 100% scam.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 28, 2012, 12:52:50 PM
Rossi is obviously a con man and has behaved like one from the beginning. Incomplete worthless tests, bs claims of anonymous buyers, bs claims of factory production. The rose colored glasses crew has been reduced to random quotes by NASA scientists and others about the viability of LENR. No working device anyone can put their hands on. 100% scam.
And replications done in universities, also BS vehiculated through the net or real ?
Quote from: parisd on March 28, 2012, 02:13:25 PM
And replications done in universities, also BS vehiculated through the net or real ?
There aren't any University replications of the E-Cat The University testing they did is worthless.
I suppose if people can't cope cold fusion coming out in a year, may be they will fall for the old HOT Fusion scam because it does work out on paper you know. Even though they have bilked many countries out of hundreds of millions of dollars and still offer the same lame excuse after over 50 years trying, that it will only be another 10 years. Even though even if it did work out it still produces dangerous radioactive waste and has no way to contain the high speed neutrons which simply destroy any shield over time.
For cold fusion to be a scam, it needs at least a few hundred million thrown at it by at least one country, and needs to be given at least 10 years before they could say "were close, just ten years away", then possibly another hundred million and another ten years so we can hear " were close, just another ten years" then....... and then.......... and then.......and....
Just remember that those that want absolute proof of cold fusion, only want to know so THEY can make MONEY on someone elses idea like a true parasite does.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 28, 2012, 06:59:04 PM
There aren't any University replications of the E-Cat The University testing they did is worthless.
Yes, you are quite right that there are no university replication of E-Cat. But there are hundreds and hundreds of successfull cold fusion experiments on universities and research facilities around the world. The amount of evidence is sufficient to conclusively say, we have a new physical phenomenon in action. This is most important message. See for example this paper:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ApplebyAJanomalousc.pdf
In this experiment made by Texas A&M university researchers led by John Appleby anomalous heat production in typical Fleischman-Pons experiment was proved by world top most apparatus. Micro-calorimeter used in experiment is so accurate that it can register even heat released by steel oxidation!
Quote from: lumen on March 28, 2012, 10:58:29 PM
I suppose if people can't cope cold fusion coming out in a year, may be they will fall for the old HOT Fusion scam because it does work out on paper you know. Even though they have bilked many countries out of hundreds of millions of dollars and still offer the same lame excuse after over 50 years trying, that it will only be another 10 years. Even though even if it did work out it still produces dangerous radioactive waste and has no way to contain the high speed neutrons which simply destroy any shield over time.
For cold fusion to be a scam, it needs at least a few hundred million thrown at it by at least one country, and needs to be given at least 10 years before they could say "were close, just ten years away", then possibly another hundred million and another ten years so we can hear " were close, just another ten years" then....... and then.......... and then.......and....
Just remember that those that want absolute proof of cold fusion, only want to know so THEY can make MONEY on someone elses idea like a true parasite does.
Great post, Lumen,
your way of sweeping nagging old crones like "happyfunball" off the feet is a perfect way to show the rest of all pessimistic imbecils how
transparent their unfounded negativism looks to any one interested in the documented progress of LENR and cold fusion related experiments
reported from scientific institutions all over the world.
We need guys with your retoric sharpness in this thread in our continous efforts to keep those trolls out of the scene in order to support a fair picture of the LENR movement.
I don't know if they are paid to do so, or if they only are plain stupid low life, but they seem to surface here again and again
with the only purpose to pollute the wellfounded optimism growing here.
Gwandau
Chess, many thanks for the explanation re motors. And guys, here's a little reminder to you all. While Rossi is the champion of this movement the heroes are actually Fleischmann and Pons. And nota bene. Poor Professor Fleischmann was a HIGHLY respected academic prior to that 'debunk'. MIT went to some considerable trouble to disprove those results and also - as far as I can see - the debunk relied on the lack of the required emissions to qualify as a nuclear reaction - of any sort. Which should have been precisely the point that their experiment was ever more closely researched. What stuck like tar to the Tar Baby - was the applied term 'pathological science' subsequently coined by Dr Vest and grossly misapplied. This did considerably more harm than than just the attendant disgrace to these highly proficient chemists - as the term has become widely applied to all research into alternative energy supplies. It is an attitude that has dogged any such field of endeavor - and has mitigated against it being properly investigated. Which is where Rossi has managed a most excellent argument against these 'debunk' exercises. He simply relies on the experimental evidence for proof - and in his case mega watts worth of this. What a star.
We must remember that - to date - there is yet no explanation for cold fusion within standard theoretical paradigms. It calls for the acknowledgement of a new source of energy that has not, heretofore, been considered. Else resolution needs yet another kind of explanation. But also remember a point that was raised - in a related thread - suggested that if elements can be transmuted at such low energies - then the standard model needs must be revised. Because it also points to the fact that atoms can actually transmute into varying levels of complexity with little more than the energy required to run our household appliances.
This all makes the advent of this technology doubly embarrassing to our mainstream science. Not only proof of energy in excess of classical prediction - but the promise of an easy means to manufacture a variety of metals with nothing more complex than an applied electrical current. A double whammy. The utility suppliers rendered obsolete and our metals markets undermined - in one fell swoop. Which makes it highly unlikely that our Rossi or anyone developing cold fusion - will become the champions of the old order of things. Thank you God. I think we're all going to need to revise the value of all that gold at Fort Knox and we'll certainly learn how utterly obsolete are our energy monopolists. God alone knows what that will do to our bankers who rely on the value of gold and the financial strength of our more pollutant energy supplies. Very likely both will be degraded. :)
It's good news guys. On every possible front.
Rosemary
Quote from: parisd on March 28, 2012, 02:13:25 PM
And replications done in universities, also BS vehiculated through the net or real ?
Hello parisd,
You might take the trouble to look at happyfunball's posts. You'll see they're all rather committed to denying any kind of evidence of over unity. Which makes it rather intriguing why he spends so much time on these forums. If he's not actually supporting the evidence of unity breaches that are mushrooming just about EVERYWHERE - then he's at the wrong address. Unless of course he has a vested interest in suppressing this knowledge. God forbid. I'm of the opinion that those energy cartels would have strong reason to try and suppress this knowledge. And they'd have the funds to finance that suppression. And just remember. Since Dr Vest managed to relegate the study of alternate energy to the rather damning category of a 'pathological' science - then he's also managed the only argument available to deny any scientific opinion that is not also based on evidence. It's the new standard of scientific assessment - based on allegation, hearsay and majority opinion - and failed replications. Nothing to do with science.
Thankfully that propagandising technique is no longer forceful. It's been that abused that it induces an entirely opposite reaction. Fortunately these 'debunkers' 'disclaimers' call them what you will, have not yet caught up with this new reaction. And thankfully they discredit themselves precisely and in direct proportion to their lack of concern for the wider public good.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
added
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 30, 2012, 07:31:56 PM
Hello parisd,
You might take the trouble to look at happyfunball's posts. You'll see they're all rather committed to denying any kind of evidence of over unity. Which makes it rather intriguing why he spends so much time on these forums. If he's not actually supporting the evidence of unity breaches that are mushrooming just about EVERYWHERE - then he's at the wrong address. Unless of course he has a vested interest in suppressing this knowledge. God forbid. I'm of the opinion that those energy cartels would have strong reason to try and suppress this knowledge. And they'd have the funds to finance that suppression. And just remember. Since Dr Vest managed to relegate the study of alternate energy to the rather damning category of a 'pathological' science - then he's also managed the only argument available to deny any scientific opinion that is not also based on evidence. It's the new standard of scientific assessment - based on allegation, hearsay and majority opinion - and failed replications. Nothing to do with science.
Thankfully that propagandising technique is no longer forceful. It's been that abused that it induces an entirely opposite reaction. Fortunately these 'debunkers' 'disclaimers' call them what you will, have not yet caught up with this new reaction. And thankfully they discredit themselves precisely and in direct proportion to their lack of concern for the wider public good.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
added
Funny how those mushrooms are consigned to random quotes and nothing tangible.
Quote from: happyfunball on March 31, 2012, 12:13:12 AM
Funny how those mushrooms are consigned to random quotes and nothing tangible.
I think we could all agree that there's no emergent technology related to cold fusion. But then we'd need to adopt your own selective interpretation of scientific evidence which is based on your extraordinary aptitudes to deny the evidence. It's effective. But I'm not sure that it's scientific.
But if it puts the 'happiness' into your 'happy fun ball' - feel free. Thankfully no-one really cares about your opinion.
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 31, 2012, 11:14:40 AM
I think we could all agree that there's no emergent technology related to cold fusion. But then we'd need to adopt your own selective interpretation of scientific evidence which is based on your extraordinary aptitudes to deny the evidence. It's effective. But I'm not sure that it's scientific.
But if it puts the 'happiness' into your 'happy fun ball' - feel free. Thankfully no-one really cares about your opinion.
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
I've been busy in the lab but I am taking a little break to relax with some R&R in this thread again :)
As you rightfully pointed out already Rosemary, the trolls have already discredited themselves trying to undermine not only this emerging technology, but also the authoritive scientists who endorse LENR.
Quotes from sources such as top scientists EMPLOYED by NASA are not random quotes. They're authoritive quotes that blabberball can not refute. If he could prove LENR to be a fraud, he would have already successfully been instrumental in the firings of these "random quote" (who are not random in name) scientists at NASA and as of yet, they ALL still work there.
You have to consider the source of the troll. He probably is not very proud of his career choice or he would have used his position or title to try and outweigh or impeach the experts quoted in this thread. More than likely, he could be the janitor at NASA and knows his opinion is even worth less than it is currently (which is less than a tennis ball) should this information come to light.
His fight is clearly not with us. It is with NASA, MIT and all of the other sources mentioned in this thread that he is unable to discredit.
@Everyone:
I have already started releasing quotes from Rossi's interview with Cold Fusion Now but I have decided to combine quotes from an interview he gave on March 29, 2012 with Oilprice.com as well. This seems to displease the trolls the most so I am going to strike back knowing their greatest displeasure; MORE random quotes ;)
Best Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on March 31, 2012, 09:36:26 PM
@Everyone:
I have already started releasing quotes from Rossi's interview with Cold Fusion Now but I have decided to combine quotes from an interview he gave on March 29, 2012 with Oilprice.com as well. This seems to displease the trolls the most so I am going to strike back knowing their greatest displeasure; MORE random quotes ;)
Best Regards,
Chess
Grand Chess. Can't wait. And thank goodness the 'disclaimers' are also limited to 'denial' - which we all know has never constituted an argument let alone the proof of an argument. I agree. It's usually related to all kinds of inadequacies. LOL
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on March 31, 2012, 09:43:39 PM
Grand Chess. Can't wait. And thank goodness the 'disclaimers' are also limited to 'denial' - which we all know has never constituted an argument let alone the proof of an argument. I agree. It's usually related to all kinds of inadequacies. LOL
@Everyone:
Here are some quotes from an interview Rossi granted to Oilprice.com on March 29, 2012:
Oilprice.com: What exactly is the E-Cat and how does it work? Andrea Rossi: The E-Cat machine is basically a heater. It uses a secret catalyser to fuse hydrogen and nickel together to form copper. Copper has a lower energy state than Nickel, and the excess energy is released in the form of a gamma ray. The gamma ray hits a wall of lead where it is absorbed and transformed into heat. The whole process is incredibly efficient and can heat any fluid that passes through the machine. Oilprice.com: Your E-Cat defies popular physics. Did you always expect the fierce resistance and criticism that you are facing? Andrea Rossi: Yes, I always expected some form of resistance from people who are unwilling to accept change, but that is the case in all areas of life, not just in physics. Oilprice.com: This could be the biggest news story of our lifetimes - yet the media coverage on this has been muted to say the least. Why do you think this is? Andrea Rossi: A normal resistance against revolutions. Enjoy,
Chess ;)
@Everyone: Here's a few more miscellaneous random quotes from another source: March 24, 2012 Andrea Rossi today made a couple of comments on his site that indicate a level of confidence regarding the receipt of safety authorizations for his domestic E-Cat units:
“We are under a process of certification made by authorized entities: I am pretty sure they are making the certification respecting all the specific laws existing in the matter.â€
“We already got the green light from all the competent Authorities, so far the certifications are in course.â€
The safety certifications are going to be crucial in terms of getting the domestic E-Cats to market. Until the certifications are granted Rossi has said there will be no mass production of anything. He also mentioned that work on the production line continues, but there will likely be modifications made to it in response to any adjustments that the ‘authorities’ require: “the robotized line to produce the E-Cats is already in production . . . the programs of the robots will be adjusted as soon as we will have the requirements from the certificatorsâ€
A final comment from Rossi today in response to an admitted skeptic: “Conserve this comment of mine: if within 16 months we will not have in operation this factory, I will pay you pizza and beer.†That’s not much of a gamble, but at least there is a rough deadline we can look forward to.
Source:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-on-certification-process/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-on-certification-process/)
Have a ball,
Chess ;D
Are gamma absorb by lead then heated lead is used by contact to heat water or water is heated by generated gamma before they reach the protective lead ? Are Gamma a good way to heat water directly? Lead will hardly stop 100% of the gamma, there should be some passing through, then location, operation, maintenance and disposal of this reactor will not be easily authorized and the e-cat will have a hard time to be certified in the US especially if it is to be use in everyone homes, and possibly the home operator may need an operating license to operate this small "reactor", nothing simple for the next 16 months.
Quote from: parisd on April 01, 2012, 06:40:45 AM
Are gamma absorb by lead then heated lead is used by contact to heat water or water is heated by generated gamma before they reach the protective lead ? Are Gamma a good way to heat water directly? Lead will hardly stop 100% of the gamma, there should be some passing through, then location, operation, maintenance and disposal of this reactor will not be easily authorized and the e-cat will have a hard time to be certified in the US especially if it is to be use in everyone homes, and possibly the home operator may need an operating license to operate this small "reactor", nothing simple for the next 16 months.
There are no radioactive waste byproduct(s) generated by the E-Cat, period. Only copper that has transmutated from nickel remains.
The reactor is double shielded (has two lead barriers for safety) and the water is heated from the outside wall of the reactor and not directly by gamma rays.
Nuclear waste is a byproduct of hot fission and NOT cold fusion.
As far as the safety issues are concerned, please allow me to reiterate:
“We are under a process of certification made by authorized entities: I am pretty sure they are making the certification respecting all the specific laws existing in the matter. We already got the green light from all the competent Authorities, so far the certifications are in course.†-- Andrea Rossi
Regards,
Chess
Hi Chess,
I was not thinking about waste, I was thinking about radiations during operation even if double shielded, I find it difficult to imagine that even if totally safe the units can be placed in every homes in a near future. Anyone aware of that certification process other than what Rossi can claim today, certification where? in the US or in every countries where the unit will be sold.
Quote from: chessnyt on April 01, 2012, 11:37:14 AM
There are no radioactive waste byproduct(s) generated by the E-Cat, period. Only copper that has transmutated from nickel remains.
The reactor is double shielded (has two lead barriers for safety) and the water is heated from the outside wall of the reactor and not directly by gamma rays.
Nuclear waste is a byproduct of hot fission and NOT cold fusion.
As far as the safety issues are concerned, please allow me to reiterate:
“We are under a process of certification made by authorized entities: I am pretty sure they are making the certification respecting all the specific laws existing in the matter. We already got the green light from all the competent Authorities, so far the certifications are in course.†-- Andrea Rossi
Regards,
Chess
Thanks for the update chessnyt. Sounds like a win-win deal. It's either free energy or pizza and beer. :D
Quote from: parisd on April 01, 2012, 06:40:45 AM
Are gamma absorb by lead then heated lead is used by contact to heat water or water is heated by generated gamma before they reach the protective lead ? Are Gamma a good way to heat water directly? Lead will hardly stop 100% of the gamma, there should be some passing through, then location, operation, maintenance and disposal of this reactor will not be easily authorized and the e-cat will have a hard time to be certified in the US especially if it is to be use in everyone homes, and possibly the home operator may need an operating license to operate this small "reactor", nothing simple for the next 16 months.
This is not the case with the e-Cat, since the gamma rays released are made of heavy particles, which do not acquire a high enough velocity and momentum to pass through lead. The gamma rays released are low level, thus they do not have the momentum to penetrate the lead. It's like a bowling ball hitting a wall at 1 mph (low level) as compared to a marble hitting a wall at 1000 mph (high level). The marble will penetrate the wall, while the bowling ball will not (even if the bowling ball and the marble was given the exact same impulse). For example, you can compare how fast two cannonballs start to fly after you launch them out of the same cannon. According to Newton’s laws of motion, a given impulse will give rise to a velocity inversely proportional to the mass. So if one cannonball comes out twice as fast as the other, it has half the mass, whether you do the experiment at the surface of Earth or in space.
High level gamma rays which make up the electromagnetic spectrum will acquire a high velocity and momentum to easily penetrate through lead. Low level gamma rays are made of heavier particles, which do not acquire a high velocity due to a given impulse and their mass. As you can see, the total mass-energy of a high level gamma ray and the total mass-energy of a low level gamma ray can be equal, but the high level gamma ray will have more momentum to penetrate a lead shield.
Gravock
Gamma rays are not "heavy particles." They are photons of EM radiation, like radio, microwave, IR, visible light, UV, X-rays and gammas, in increasing order of energy per photon. They do carry momentum, they move at the speed of light whatever their energies, and they are massless except for their energy equivalent mass.
The gammas released by electron-positron annihilation are 511 kEv gammas. These are just about the lowest energy gammas that you can have.... lower and you are starting to get into X-ray levels. The alleged transmutation reactions claimed by Rossi release these 511 kEv gammas.... and they are energetic enough to require more than a few millimeters of lead to shield them completely.
I copied some interesting comments from this link: http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-on-certification-process/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/rossi-on-certification-process/)
I have always tried to use my critical thinking skills when it comes to evaluating free energy propositions, or in this case, an LENR proposition. You read and take in information from all angles. One thing that has always set off alarm bells in my head is when the person promoting the proposition says something like, "We will start producing a million units per year starting next year."
Does anybody remember this PESN headline, "Aviso Envisions 1 Million Self-Charging EV Retrofit Stations by 2011 End." Not that I didn't already know that Ismael Aviso was full of crap, but that laughable statement just hammered home the point and showed how stupid and naive this man really is. He is just a small guy running a garage or something with a few employees. You would need a medium-sized army to accomplish what he claimed.
Rossi is making a similar claim. Putting all of the testing issues aside, when Rossi claims that he is going to produce a million units per year, that should set off some alarm bells in your head. Because if any of that is true, we should know were the factory is, we should be aware that they are hiring staff, they should be purchasing equipment, and so on and so on. It's impossible to set up a factory producing a million units of a device like he is claiming without everyone following this story not being aware of the "footprint."
I don't follow this story too closely, but from what I understand, if you believe 100% in Rossi then you believe that there is a "secret factory" being set up but nobody is allowed to know where it is and nobody is allowed to know any details about it. Am I roughly correct?
If I am correct in my assumptions then I am telling you this doesn't smell right at all. I thought by the end of 2011 we were all supposed to be informed and have conclusive proof. Are we now waiting for the end of 2012?
I will post the copied postings from a product/production development engineer below. (They might be two separate people.)
MileHigh
Product Development Engineer on March 25, 2012 at 9:54 am Nothing about Rossi’s story of the 1 mill. factory stacks up.
For starters, it is an “automated production lineâ€, not “robotised†… at least, in all my time I have never heard any practicing prod. eng. refer to “robotised factoriesâ€. It is automation that makes these lines flow, robots are a bit part, sometimes … I wonder which prod. eng.s Rossi is working with who are talking abot “robotised factoriesâ€â€¦.
The rest of the story about “tweaking robots†for design changes is far-fetched or unbelievably naive. Setting up for runs of 1 mill is not trivial, small changes can create warehouses full of bad product in short times as the line is ramped up to speed during commissioning … it’s a high-pressure, high-risk activity ramping up a factory outputting 3k appliance units every 24 hrs. You can’t stop and you can’t change mid-flight. You need to test run 24/7 for weeks at full capacity to prove/debug the line at the design throughput and tinkering with product design changes is a major production undertaking … not to mention the possible impact on product quality.
Either Rossi has no clue or the people he’s working with have no clue and he’s ill-advised … just my professional opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Production Development Engineer on March 26, 2012 at 4:40 am I’m also glad he has nailed his colours to the mast because I can now definitively view it as him being full of BS or wildly optimistic on the manufacturing… in some ways, for me, his claims of ramping up 1 mill. unit factory by the end of the year is more incredible than the claims of excess heat. Here’s a thought experiment to demonstrate.
First, imagine how you could make 30 E-cats a day, i.e. think about sourcing/casting/maching/folding all necessary large parts, source/manufacture temp. sensors, press. sensors, wires, electronic controller boards, plastic knobs, assemble, test, package, etc. That is more than 1 per hour (24/7). Now you have to do that 100 times faster … think carefully about what that means …
… you need to source and assemble 3000 temp. sensors, press. sensors, machined bodies, electronics, plastic bits, etc PER DAY. The die moulding, component design and production engineering (how to assemble in such quanties) for such large throughput factory takes at minimum 2 years (probably closer to 4) in my experience in the appliance industry, involving co-ordination of about 200-300 prod./design engineers (and at some point more engineers makes the project go slower, not faster so throwing more bodies at it does not help).
Most people cannot comprehend the scale of such a factory … they just blithely say “a million a year†without thinking the logistics of such a statement through. The engineering needed to achieve such a feat is not trivial, but I repeat myself. E.g. think of the space a stack of 3000 microwave ovens in their packaged factory boxes occupies and you get some idea of what he is claiming since an E-cat will be very similar in size and component complexity … now that stack is meant to be produced 24/7/365 …
Good luck to him, but everything I’ve seen him say suggests he has no clue what a 1 mill. per day plant would actually look like or how it needs to function. And I have personal experience with them, so draw your own conclusions ….
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 01, 2012, 06:13:27 PM
Gamma rays are not "heavy particles." They are photons of EM radiation, like radio, microwave, IR, visible light, UV, X-rays and gammas, in increasing order of energy per photon. They do carry momentum, they move at the speed of light whatever their energies, and they are massless except for their energy equivalent mass.
The gammas released by electron-positron annihilation are 511 kEv gammas. These are just about the lowest energy gammas that you can have.... lower and you are starting to get into X-ray levels. The alleged transmutation reactions claimed by Rossi release these 511 kEv gammas.... and they are energetic enough to require more than a few millimeters of lead to shield them completely.
I am reasonably certain that there's nothing on these forums to mitigate against free expression of uninformed opinion. In fact I get the distinct impression that this practice is rather encouraged. But I'm not sure there's any value in it. Other than to indulge in a compulsive need to parade one's ignorance.
My dear Tinsel Koala - the most of our mainstream scientists know perfectly well the distinction between alpha, beta and gamma emissions. Alpha, typically refers to photons and the kind of emissions that are produced by our sun. And any attendant dangers here can be obviated by nothing more complex than 'sun block' or by the application of membranes that need be no thicker than the chitinous cover over your average sugar ant. Beta emissions are atomic and, in as much as they're associated with electrons - they relate to the changes in the outer boundaries of our atoms. These emissions, in turn, can be blocked by by lead, foil and even paper (if it's thick enough). No real dangers. Gamma rays, on the other hand, ONLY refer to the particles that comprise the atom's nucleus, being the protons and the neutrons. And these are somewhat hazardous - in whatever form - highly penetrative - and typically with a frightening and long lasting toxicity. And also, typically these are proposed to be 'contained' by the strong concrete shielding around our nuclear reactors. Sadly, there is no known and effective means to dispose of this waste. Which is an insuperable concern that encourages a great many people to rather dislike the continued and reckless practice of building ever more nuclear power plants to address our energy concerns.
Regarding your 'redefinition' of these emissions. If you are seriously proposing this then I would suggest you write to our academics - all over the world - and advise them that your opinion here not only matters - but that you prefer it that they all apply this. Else it is likely to be ignored. And I doubt that any of our readers here will ever bother to inform them for you - being as it is an eccentric and somewhat inadequate definition - in any context at all.
Your choice
Rosie Pose.
edited. changed 'reactions' to 'reactors'
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 01, 2012, 06:13:27 PM
Gamma rays are not "heavy particles." They are photons of EM radiation, like radio, microwave, IR, visible light, UV, X-rays and gammas, in increasing order of energy per photon. They do carry momentum, they move at the speed of light whatever their energies, and they are massless except for their energy equivalent mass.
The gammas released by electron-positron annihilation are 511 kEv gammas. These are just about the lowest energy gammas that you can have.... lower and you are starting to get into X-ray levels. The alleged transmutation reactions claimed by Rossi release these 511 kEv gammas.... and they are energetic enough to require more than a few millimeters of lead to shield them completely.
I agree somewhat, but your argument isn't valid in this case, because we're not dealing with the electromagnetic force (photons, electrons, ect.), but are dealing with the weak nuclear force which is an interaction with the W & Z particles which are more massive, but with an identical Kev to those interactions which are found for the electromagnetic force. Add up the total mass-energy of the W & Z particles and they will be at or higher than the 511 Kev gammas, which would be similar to the equivalent Kev of the electromagnetic force. The difference would be between their velocity and momentum (mass and velocity difference). In other-words, you're trying to wrongly apply the proper force to the correct particles which are responsible for these gamma rays.
Gravock.
Hello MileHigh,
Congratulations. It seems that you are now taking up the cudgels against cold fusion - or LENR - as it's also known. This is comforting as I was beginning to think that you'd overlooked this in your endless denials of efficient alternative energy supply sources.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 01, 2012, 09:17:49 PM
I have always tried to use my critical thinking skills when it comes to evaluating free energy propositions, or in this case, an LENR proposition. You read and take in information from all angles. One thing that has always set off alarm bells in my head is when the person promoting the proposition says something like, "We will start producing a million units per year starting next year.
Does anybody remember this PESN headline, "Aviso Envisions 1 Million Self-Charging EV Retrofit Stations by 2011 End." Not that I didn't already know that Ismael Aviso was full of crap, but that laughable statement just hammered home the point and showed how stupid and naive this man really is. He is just a small guy running a garage or something with a few employees. You would need a medium-sized army to accomplish what he claimed.
Delighted to read that you try and apply your 'thinking' skills. Sorry to learn that this sets of loud 'bell' noises in your brain. I'm afraid there's no solution here. A hollow cavity is known to exaggerate sound. And your need to read 'Rossi' or 'Defkalion' or 'NASA' or 'MIT' when you actually read 'Aviso' - is something that is utterly incurable. Certainly not until you manage to damp down that 'bell ringing' thing you suffer from. Regarding the need for a medium sized army to produce a million units of anything at all - then rest assured. This number of employees is exactly what most of our energy supply users rely on - either directly or indirectly. And the end users - the beneficiaries - of this 'army', so to speak - is that big that it's global. Sadly - the rampant toxicity that they produce is also global.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 01, 2012, 09:17:49 PMRossi is making a similar claim. Putting all of the testing issues aside, when Rossi claims that he is going to produce a million units per year, that should set off some alarm bells in your head. Because if any of that is true, we should know were the factory is, we should be aware that they are hiring staff, they should be purchasing equipment, and so on and so on. It's impossible to set up a factory producing a million units of a device like he is claiming without everyone following this story not being aware of the "footprint."
If there were any standard media coverage of any part of this development - then indeed, I suspect we'd all be hearing about this. Fortunately our media are ignoring this - as they're of the opinion that LENR is a pathological science. Which also means that both Defkalion and Rossi can continue 'under the radar' - so to speak.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 01, 2012, 09:17:49 PMAm I roughly correct? If I am correct in my assumptions then I am telling you this doesn't smell right at all. I thought by the end of 2011 we were all supposed to be informed and have conclusive proof. Are we now waiting for the end of 2012?
Clearly you don't follow this too closely. And you're not correct in your assumptions. And it seems that it's not only your brain that is effected by that bell ringing but also your sense of smell.
Take care MileHigh,
Rose Pose
Well, I don't get it because for all of my life I understood gamma rays to be high-frequency electromagnetic radiation.
From Wiki:
QuoteGamma radiation, also known as gamma rays or hyphenated as gamma-rays and denoted as γ (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Gamma), is electromagnetic radiation (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation) of high frequency and therefore energy. Gamma rays are ionizing radiation (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Ionizing_radiation) and are thus biologically hazardous. Gamma rays are classically produced by the decay from high energy states of atomic (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Atom) nuclei (gamma decay (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Gamma_decay)), but also in many other ways. Natural sources of gamma rays on Earth include gamma decay from naturally-occurring radioisotopes (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Radioisotope) such as potassium-40 (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Potassium-40), and also as a secondary radiation from various atmospheric interactions with cosmic ray (http://www.overunity.com/wiki/Cosmic_ray) particles.
Gravityblock, I have never heard of what you are talking about but I did some searching:
QuoteThe W and Z bosons (together known as the weak bosons) are the elementary particles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle) that mediate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_carrier) the weak interaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_interaction); their symbols are W[size=85%]+
[/size]
, W[size=85%]âˆ'
[/size]
and Z. The W bosons have a positive and negative electric charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge) of 1 elementary charge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_charge) respectively and are each other's antiparticle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiparticle). The Z boson is electrically neutral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_particle) and its own antiparticle. All three of these particles are very short-lived with a half-life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life) of about 3×10âˆ'25 s. Their discovery was a major success for what is now called the Standard Model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model) of particle physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics).
QuoteWeak interaction (often called the weak force or sometimes the weak nuclear force) is one of the four fundamental forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction) of nature, alongside the strong nuclear force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_interaction), electromagnetism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism), and gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation). It is responsible for the radioactive decay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay) of subatomic particles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subatomic_particles) and initiates the process known as hydrogen fusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion) in stars. Weak interactions affect all known fermions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermions); that is, particles whose spin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_%28physics%29) (a property of all particles) is a half-integer.
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay
I looked around for 10 minutes and I don't see any references to gamma radiation being anything else but electromagnetic radiation. Are you sure of your information? Are you sure you are not getting your information from a junk science web site?
It's quite important to not redefine terms that have precise definitions. I am no expert here, just stating what I believe to be true.
MileHigh
Rosie Posie:
QuoteDelighted to read that you try and apply your 'thinking' skills. Sorry to learn that this sets of loud 'bell' noises in your brain.
So all that you have is an ad-hominem attack?
All of you that are following the Rossi narrative please keep what I said in mind about the claimed "big factory." You read the quote from the production engineer, it takes somewhere between 200 and 300 engineers to do this. For the sake of argument, assume about the same number of support and production people when the factory is close to starting production.
So we are talking a couple of years to set up a factory like this and 200 to 300 people working on the project. Then when you are close to production the head count has to be somewhere between 400 and 600 people. This is REALITY.
So when you listen to Rossi talk about going into production you know that there has to be real substance. If by the end of the year he is still a very small operation and he is talking about producing one million units per year starting in 2013 then chances are it's all just bluff and bluster. If he still hasn't demonstrated valid data verified by independent third parties at the end of this year, then that's two strikes against him.
Just use your common sense.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 01, 2012, 11:12:36 PM
Well, I don't get it because for all of my life I understood gamma rays to be high-frequency electromagnetic radiation.
Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay)
I looked around for 10 minutes and I don't see any references to gamma radiation being anything else but electromagnetic radiation. Are you sure of your information? Are you sure you are not getting your information from a junk science web site? It's quite important to not redefine terms that have precise definitions. I am no expert here, just stating what I believe to be true.
Perhaps you should spend more than 10 minutes on that link. It EXPLAINS that gamma ray emissions relate to the changes in the atomic NUCLEUS. And the only known particles in the atomic nucleus are protons and neutrons. NO ELECTRONS MileHigh. Perhaps the reader of 'junk science' is not Gravock but you.
Rosie
Quote from: gravityblock on April 01, 2012, 10:57:57 PM
In other-words, you're trying to wrongly apply the proper force to the correct particles which are responsible for these gamma rays.
Gravock.
@milehigh:
The equations are the same, but the values are not. Since we're dealing with a different force along with the heavier W & Z particles, we must take this into account when choosing values for our equation. If not, then we will be applying the wrong force with the correct particle.
Gravock
Rosemary:
QuoteIt EXPLAINS that gamma ray emissions relate to the changes in the atomic NUCLEUS. And the only known particles in the atomic nucleus are protons and neutrons.
Often I think that you are a victim of your own wishful thinking.
Is this your thinking?:
changes in the atomic NUCLEUS and
particles in the atomic nucleus are protons and neutrons therefore
gamma rays must be particles.
It sure as hell looks like it is. It's the old, "
Joe is an Old Salt. Salt dissolves in water. Therefore Joe dissolves in water."
You need to expand your horizons Rosemary if you want to play in the science sandbox.
QuoteRadioactive decay (gamma decay) Gamma rays from radioactive gamma decay are produced alongside other forms of radiation such as alpha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_decay) or beta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_decay), and are produced after the other types of decay occur. The mechanism is that when a nucleus emits an α or β particle, the daughter nucleus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter_nucleus) is usually left in an excited state. It can then move to a lower energy state by emitting a gamma ray, in much the same way that an atomic electron can jump to a lower energy state by emitting a photon. Emission of a gamma ray from an excited nuclear state typically requires only 10âˆ'12 seconds, and is thus nearly instantaneous. Gamma decay from excited states may also follow nuclear reactions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reaction) such as neutron capture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_capture), nuclear fission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission), or nuclear fusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion).
In certain cases, the excited nuclear state following the emission of a beta particle may be more stable than average, and is termed a metastable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metastable) excited state, if its decay is 100 to 1000 times longer than the average 10âˆ'12 seconds. Such nuclei have half-lives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life) that are easily measurable, and are termed nuclear isomers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_isomer). Some nuclear isomers are able to stay in their excited state for minutes, hours, days, or occasionally far longer, before emitting a gamma ray. Isomeric transition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isomeric_transition) is the name given to a gamma decay from such a state. The process of isomeric transition is therefore similar to any gamma emission, but differs in that it involves the intermediate metastable excited states of the nuclei.
MileHigh
Gavityblock:
All that I know is that from what I have always learned is that gamma rays are rays - they are electromagnetic radiation. But I acknowledge that I am not an expert - but at the same time I had science education.
I will leave it at that. Let's hope that Rossi saves the world, you never know.
MileHigh
MileHigh, I got the distinct impression that you'd come across the subject of Rossi and the advent of the E-cat - before today. Which means that you probably knew of Rossi's and Defkalion's intentions to automate. You even made reference to this when you explained that Rossi's use of the term 'roboticise' instead 'automate' - set up a loud ringing in your head. Both terms are perfectly acceptable - and roboticise is probably more appropriate in as much as it's intended to explain how it is that he'll do away with that 'army' of people you keep telling us he'll need. So I wonder if I could perhaps impose on YOU to apply some common sense. It's no good arguing the need for an army of people when - self evidently - he's thereby done away with this need.
Rosie Pose.
Hi all,
Here is a image of .....
"The Electromagnetic Spectrum"
Westinghouse Research Laboratories
Chart - MB 1957 28" high x 41" long
Westinghouse Electrical Corporation
Printing Division Trafford, Pa
Copyright 1961 by
Westinghouse Electric Corporation
FTC
;)
No Rosemary when it comes to setting up and running a factory you are completely dreaming. I know how factories work because I worked in one and I have visited dozens and dozens of them. I can give Rossi some latitude with respect to the terminology because English is not his native language. But the fact remains that you will need an army of people to produce one million E-Cats per year. These things are massive undertakings and that's the way it is. There are indeed Rossi supporters that have glazed eyes with rose-coloured glasses on and they will be dismissive of all facts and reason that detract from the idea that in 2012 or 2013 or 2014 that a million E-Cats are going to be coming off the assembly line per year. If that was really true then there should already be a large organization working on that project full time.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 01, 2012, 11:51:31 PM
Gavityblock:
All that I know is that from what I have always learned is that gamma rays are rays - they are electromagnetic radiation. But I acknowledge that I am not an expert - but at the same time I had science education.
I will leave it at that. Let's hope that Rossi saves the world, you never know.
MileHigh
Golly MileHigh. That's nice to read. A genuinely 'open' mind as opposed to an empty mind. What a pleasure. And indeed. Let's hope that he'll 'change the world'. I see it as being very much on the cards.
Kindest regards to you MileHigh. I might add that this is the first contribution that I know of where you've allowed experimental evidence to guide your opinion. Very nice it is too.
Rosie Pose
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 12:02:32 AM
No Rosemary when it comes to setting up and running a factory you are completely dreaming. I know how factories work because I worked in one and I have visited dozens and dozens of them. I can give Rossi some latitude with respect to the terminology because English is not his native language. But the fact remains that you will need an army of people to produce one million E-Cats per year. These things are massive undertakings and that's the way it is. There are indeed Rossi supporters that have glazed eyes with rose-coloured glasses on and they will be dismissive of all facts and reason that detract from the idea that in 2012 or 2013 or 2014 that a million E-Cats are going to be coming off the assembly line per year. If that was really true then there should already be a large organization working on that project full time.
MileHigh
Just read up more about this MileHigh. There are indeed many, many many people - who are actively engaged in the planning of this from quoted companies - no less. Fortunately - they are not referenced in our media and nor are they looking for that attention. Thank God.
Rosemary
AND AS FOR THIS? :D
Quote from: MileHigh on April 01, 2012, 11:44:39 PM
Often I think that you are a victim of your own wishful thinking.
Is this your thinking?: changes in the atomic NUCLEUS and particles in the atomic nucleus are protons and neutrons therefore gamma rays must be particles.
INDEED. Well done. That's EXACTLY WHAT I'M PROPOSING. If this is 'wishful thinking' then I share this with the entire body of nuclear physicists and with anyone with a working or even passing knowledge of nuclear physics and the standard model. What's really amusing is that you seem to deny this. What are you thinking? :o Actually don't tell us. We've got a shrewd idea what it is that you're thinking. And it's NOT RIGHT. Or read another way - IT'S WRONG. Or better put - it's NONSENSE. Let us know what distinction it is that you draw between alpha, beta and gamma emissions PLEASE. If you err on the side of the standard model then INDEED. Gamma ray emission relates to changes in the NUCLEUS of the atom. And the nucleus of the atom is KNOWN to comprise ONLY PROTONS AND NEUTRONS. Therefore are the resulting emissions related to the interaction of PROTONS AND NEUTRONS.
This brings to mind that dissertation of yours where you argue that particles are controlled by gravitational fields. Which means that most atoms should be subject to complete and continual degradation and end up as a pool of disassociated particles - resting on the floor of the some kind of tenuous structure - in layers that are differentiated by size in relation to their weight mass. LOL.
And then you PRESUME to teach us particle physics. I'd strongly propose that you're somewhat under qualified. With or without respect.
Rosie Pose.
And MileHigh, physics is NOT my sandbox. It's my alter.
Again and ever,
Rosie [/quote]
Steorn's website is still up and running, they're probably even selling a few magnetic bearings and useless 'Orbo kits.' Moral of the story: There are no repercussions for OU con artists. Rossi is obviously quite aware of this fact. It's really pretty amazing.
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 01, 2012, 11:56:29 PM
Hi all,
Here is a image of .....
"The Electromagnetic Spectrum"
Westinghouse Research Laboratories
Chart - MB 1957 28" high x 41" long
Westinghouse Electrical Corporation
Printing Division Trafford, Pa
Copyright 1961 by
Westinghouse Electric Corporation
FTC
;)
This spectrum is of the electromagnetic force. Now, extend the concept of the electromagnetic spectrum to include the weak nuclear force. The electromagnetic force is infinite in range, however the weak nuclear force is a very strong force over a tiny range interacting with the heavier W & Z bosons. This is what mainstream science is missing. What I'm saying easily explains why these gamma rays are incapable of penetrating a thin lead shield, however your ideas are based around a science which says these gamma rays should easily penetrate a thin layer of lead. What does the experimental evidence support? It supports that these gamma rays do not have the ability to penetrate through a thin layer of lead, which is opposite to what is expected in the currently accepted theory. It's called Low Level Nuclear Reactions for a reason. It's occurring at much lower energy levels than what was predicted by mainstream physics.
Gravock
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 01, 2012, 11:56:29 PM
Hi all,
Here is a image of .....
"The Electromagnetic Spectrum"
Westinghouse Research Laboratories
Chart - MB 1957 28" high x 41" long
Westinghouse Electrical Corporation
Printing Division Trafford, Pa
Copyright 1961 by
Westinghouse Electric Corporation
FTC
This spectrum is of the electromagnetic force. Now, extend the concept of the electromagnetic spectrum to include the weak nuclear force. The electromagnetic force is infinite in range, however the weak nuclear force is a very strong force over a tiny range interacting with the heavier W & Z bosons. This is what mainstream science is missing. What I'm saying easily explains why these gamma rays are incapable of penetrating a thin lead shield, however your ideas are based around a science which says these gamma rays should easily penetrate a thin layer of lead. What does the experimental evidence support? It supports that these gamma rays do not have the ability to penetrate through a thin layer of lead, which is opposite to what is expected in the currently accepted theory. It's called Low Level Nuclear Reactions for a reason. It's occurring at much lower energy levels than what was predicted by mainstream physics.
Gravock
Rosemary:
Please find references to support two of your statements and one implicit statement:
1. Gamma rays are particles.
2. Gravity does not affect small particles
3. The mass cutoff-for small particles when they transition from gravity affecting them to not affecting them.
Just our of curiosity and without looking it up, can you explain the process that results in the aurora borealis?
QuoteWhich means that most atoms should be subject to complete and continual degradation and end up as a pool of disassociated particles - resting on the floor of the some kind of tenuous structure - in layers that are differentiated by size in relation to their weight mass. LOL.
I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you could explain that in more detail.
MileHigh
Hello again MilesUpInTheSky
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 03:22:33 AM
Rosemary:
Please find references to support two of your statements and one implicit statement:
1. Gamma rays are particles.
2. Gravity does not affect small particles
3. The mass cutoff-for small particles when they transition from gravity affecting them to not affecting them.
Just our of curiosity and without looking it up, can you explain the process that results in the aurora borealis?
I haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about. Perhaps you could explain that in more detail.
MileHigh
You ask me to support MY claims?
1. Gamma rays are particles. NOT MY CLAIM
2. Gravity does not affect small particles NOT MY CLAIM
3. The mass cutoff-for small particles when they transition from gravity affecting them to not affecting them. NOT ONLY NOT MY CLAIM BUT NOT ON TOPIC
aurora borealis - NOT ON TOPIC and I'm not about to give you a science lesson.
Could I impose on you to open a thread related to any extraneous subjects than this thread topic. It would be an interesting engagement. Especially as it relates to particles that respond to a gravitational field.
lol OR AS YOU PUT IT
LOLOLOLOLOL
:) :D ;D :o 8)
Ever rosier
Rosie Pose
Rosemary:
QuoteLet us know what distinction it is that you draw between alpha, beta and gamma emissions PLEASE.
Alpha particles (named after and denoted by the first letter in the Greek alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet), α (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha)) consist of two protons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton) and two neutrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron) bound together into a particle identical to a helium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium) nucleus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_nucleus), but stripped of electrons.
Beta particles are high-energy, high-speed electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron) or positrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron) emitted by certain types of radioactive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive) nuclei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_nucleus) such as potassium-40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium-40). The beta particles emitted are a form of ionizing radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation) also known as beta rays.
Gamma radiation is one of the three types of natural radioactivity. Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation, like X-rays. The other two types of natural radioactivity are alpha and beta radiation, which are in the form of particles. Gamma rays are the most energetic form of electromagnetic radiation, with a very short wavelength of less than one-tenth of a nanometer.
I just did some copy/pasting, it's all standard stuff.
Good luck on your quest Rosie Posie.
MileHigh
Pozzie Rozzie:
Quote1. Gamma rays are particles. NOT MY CLAIM
QuoteIs this your thinking?: changes in the atomic NUCLEUS and particles in the atomic nucleus are protons and neutrons therefore gamma rays must be particles.
INDEED. Well done. That's EXACTLY WHAT I'M PROPOSING.
I get it, you are a phreaking physics zsycho.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 03:31:50 AM
Rosemary:
Alpha particles (named after and denoted by the first letter in the Greek alphabet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet), α (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha)) consist of two protons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton) and two neutrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron) bound together into a particle identical to a helium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium) nucleus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_nucleus), but stripped of electrons.
NOT according to the links provided and NOT according to the standard model.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 03:31:50 AMBeta particles are high-energy, high-speed electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron) or positrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positron) emitted by certain types of radioactive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive) nuclei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_nucleus) such as potassium-40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium-40). The beta particles emitted are a form of ionizing radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation) also known as beta rays.
You omitted reference to the fact that BETA DECAY is easily shielded. Was that deliberate?
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 03:31:50 AMGamma radiation is one of the three types of natural radioactivity. Gamma rays are electromagnetic radiation, like X-rays. The other two types of natural radioactivity are alpha and beta radiation, which are in the form of particles. Gamma rays are the most energetic form of electromagnetic radiation, with a very short wavelength of less than one-tenth of a nanometer.
More muddles? MileHigh? Are you proposing that there are no particles in alpha, beta or gamma emissions? That would indeed be a miracle of some extraordinary dimension
Rosie Pose
[/quote]
QuoteThis brings to mind that dissertation of yours where you argue that particles are controlled by gravitational fields.
QuoteGravity does not affect small particles NOT MY CLAIM
My brain is hurting!
QuoteAre you proposing that there are no particles in alpha, beta or gamma emissions? That would indeed be a miracle of some extraordinary dimension.
Your brain is really hurting!
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 03:41:32 AM
My brain is hurting!
It's because you can't draw the distinction between 'MY' claims and the claims proposed by standard physics. To the best of my knowledge mine and standard physics are very much in SYNCH.
Again and ever,
Rosie
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 03:43:26 AM
Your brain is really hurting!
I think the psychological term is 'projection'. LOL. My brain is fine. But I can't answer for yours.
And yet again,
and always
Rosie Posie
edited
It's a sandbox on acid.
Gravityblock:
QuoteThis spectrum is of the electromagnetic force. Now, extend the concept of the electromagnetic spectrum to include the weak nuclear force. The electromagnetic force is infinite in range, however the weak nuclear force is a very strong force over a tiny range interacting with the heavier W & Z bosons. This is what mainstream science is missing. What I'm saying easily explains why these gamma rays are incapable of penetrating a thin lead shield, however your ideas are based around a science which says these gamma rays should easily penetrate a thin layer of lead. What does the experimental evidence support? It supports that these gamma rays do not have the ability to penetrate through a thin layer of lead, which is opposite to what is expected in the currently accepted theory. It's called Low Level Nuclear Reactions for a reason. It's occurring at much lower energy levels than what was predicted by mainstream physics.
Are you saying that this whole business about gamma rays being particles is your own personal theory?
Rosemary:
QuoteIt's because you can't draw the distinction between 'MY' claims and the claims proposed by standard physics. To the best of my knowledge mine and standard physics are very much in SYNCH.
Same question for you. Are you saying that this whole business about gamma rays being particles is your own personal theory?
MileHigh
This is hilarious.
Everybody in the world who knows anything at all about the Standard Model, to which RA so casually refers, understands that:
ALPHA radiation consists of relatively heavy PARTICLES which are helium nuclei (two protons and two neutrons, bound together) stripped of their electrons. They aren't very energetic and can be stopped with minimal shielding. If you have a tremendous amount of them they can be dangerous but usually aren't.
BETA radiation consists of ELECTRONS, accelerated and ejected by various processes among which is Beta Decay of a nucleon, which is mediated by the Weak nuclear force. But that has nothing to do with the fact that an accelerated electron coming at you is a BETA "particle", is charged and therefore can be ionising, and can also be stopped with minimal shielding. Again, in massive quantities and with large energies they can be damaging.
And finally,
GAMMA radiation is electromagnetic, consists of photons/waves just like light, only much much more energetic. They are energetic enough to punch though a lot of shielding and can knock electrons out of atoms (hence "ionizing" them and destroying the molecules they are in).
These are accepted definitions, available in literally thousands of resources on the internet. The only place you will find mention of gamma rays as "particles" though... is right here.
But the real issue is this: Why are you trying to argue with someone who re-defines words on the fly, doesn't even remember her own outrageous claims, and will tell you that hundreds of years of experiment and knowledge are just wrong because she says so? You are talking to the Red Queen here and you cannot win any argument, because she's speaking her own special language.
ETA: Perhaps, being as charitable as possible here, RA is confusing "gamma rays" which can come from cosmic sources, with "cosmic rays" which are indeed highly energetic particles, according to the American Heritage dictionary:
QuoteCosmic Ray:
n.
A stream of ionizing radiation of extraterrestrial origin, consisting chiefly of protons, alpha particles, and other atomic nuclei but including some high-energy electrons, that enters the atmosphere, collides with atomic nuclei, and produces secondary radiation, principally pions, muons, electrons, and gamma rays.
You might also find this link useful. It gives a good explanation of the history of discovery, and the description and processes that produce alpha and beta particles. Gamma rays get a mention-- as ELECTROMAGNETIC radiation-- in the very last paragraph.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/nuclear-physics-in-a-nutshell.html (http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/nuclear-physics-in-a-nutshell.html)
TK:
I dropped acid after I posted the following just so I could cope:
QuoteTo Pozzie Rozzie from MileHigh:
You stated the following: Gamma rays are particles.
Pozzie Rozzio response: NOT MY CLAIM
To Pozzie Rozzie from MileHigh: Is this your thinking?: changes in the atomic NUCLEUS and particles in the atomic nucleus are protons and neutrons therefore gamma rays must be particles.
Pozzie Rozzio response: INDEED. Well done. That's EXACTLY WHAT I'M PROPOSING.
MileHigh conclusion: I get it, you are a phreaking physics zsycho.
Coming down now and ready to leave the Bizarro Universe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro_World
QuoteIn the Bizarro world of "Htrae" ("Earth" spelled backwards), society is ruled by the Bizarro Code which states "Us do opposite of all Earthly things! Us hate beauty! Us love ugliness! Is big crime to make anything perfect on Bizarro World!" In one episode, for example, a salesman is doing a brisk trade selling Bizarro bonds: "Guaranteed to lose money for you". Later, the mayor appoints Bizarro No. 1 to investigate a crime, "Because you are stupider than the entire Bizarro police force put together". This is intended and taken as a great compliment
MileHigh
Guys, Chess all,
Abject apologies for this thread tending off topic. I'm afraid I've been followed by those who are applying a gratuitous attack against my work and the good names of my colleagues. I'll withdraw until some appropriate moderation is applied. I think it's the only decent thing I can do as this subject is way more important than my contributions here.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Guys,
The word "Gammas" started a war... Those who do not know what are Gammas or Alphas should learn that outside of this thread going back to their physics books even if those books are 50 years old.
Rossi having a facility ready for 1 million units ready without having any certification yet, can't be himself claiming that, I don't even know if Apple has the facility for the nex 1 million Ipad !
I am new to LENR and trying to catch-up but quite a hard task. I recall reading (outside of this forum) that scientists were puzzled because there was no gammas associated with the Rossi E-cat, now there are Gammas.
I am puzzled by the way water is heated outside of the lead barrier, I would have expected the heat to come mainly from the fuel temperature itself, i.e the nickel, less from the gammas but I can get it all wrong so I apologize in advance for writing possible non sense but please don't elaborate on that unless the answer is known and publicly available.
My 2 questions remain:
1) If the E-cat never see life, is there enough knowledge / data to replicate it ?
2) Anyone informed through official and verifiable sources of any certification in progress anywhere in the world ?
Kids! Kids!
Please stop throwing sand at each other!
It´s embarrasing. I´m flushing.
Now, our present standpoint is to either believe what Andrea Rossi claims to have stumbled upon, or not.
First of all, there is no way to prove or disprove anything yet.
Secondly, it's utterly useless to incorporate so called basic facts from the physics books, since this, if true, is something completely outside the box.
What do we know?
We know is that LENR is a worldwide phenomenon that just recently got momentum in several institutions.
We also know that Andrea Rossi (and his copying antagonist Defkalion) is the only one so far that claims to have found
a practical way to harness this confirmed LENR phenomenon as a heater.
We can all agree on this:
AR claims to have discovered a way to create heat by means that in no way is possible to explain by contemporary scientific concepts.
If he is a reliable guy, this invention will change or thoroughly update our view of nucear physics.
If he is not, he will go to the history of being one of the greatest scammers ever known, being able to fool several universities
through complete many hour test runs closely monitored by high academic physiscists and nuclear scientists.
But the greatest mystery of all will in that case be why on earth he did it, since he will never earn a penny from it until the trust in charge of the whole
production project starts getting money returned from the sales.
Regarding I million units per year:
Andrea Rossi says the e-cat is very simple construct and consists of just a few components, and if it wasn't for the bulky heat exchanger making
the whole e-cat just a little bigger than a DVD player, it would actually be much smaller, due to it's simplicity.
Three thousand packaged units, consisting of some copper tubes and lead shielding together with a simple printed circuit card, in the size of packaged DVD-players
would probably not take many minutes to assemble or take up very much of volume in a six story warehouse, so personally I really do not think that there are
such monumental production issues as mentioned by MileHigh.
It all boils down to: Do you want to take a step out to the open minded ones and believe Andrea Rossi or do you prefer to take the old and safe standpoint?
The rest of any argumental standpoints in either direction just tells us that you either believe or not.
Gwandau
Notice that she doesn't say "It was wrong to insist that gammas were heavy particles, sorry, I stand corrected", nor does she even fall back on the easy excuse I gave her: "Oh, I was confusing Gamma Rays with Cosmic Rays, sorry, language barrier, mistranslation, gammas are in fact EM radiation just as TK says, I looked it up in several places and I'm convinced."
No. Instead she screams for moderation and runs away, secure in her ignorance.
Now... Rossi.
Rossi has gammas when they are convenient, like when he has to explain heating, where he says that the gammas (from inside) are absorbed in the lead shielding (outside) where they are converted to heat. He doesn't explain how, if lead melts at a certain temperature, he is able to heat steam to above that temperature, without having a lot of liquid lead running out all over his shoes--- except that lately, now that the temperature problem has been pointed out, he says he's using some other secret material to shield and thermalize the gammas that either are or aren't there.
Because Rossi doesn't have gammas when they are inconvenient, like when the Florida nuclear regulatory official visited him and asked about his device, his factory, and whether it contained any hazardous material or produced any harmful radiation. "No" says Rossi, ignoring the toxicity of finely-divided nickel, the hazard of hydrogen, and the gammas that are supposed to produce his heat.
Not only that, but his million-unit-per year factory moves around a lot.... first it's in Florida, then it's not in the USA at all.
So a domestic ECat is simple and compact. About the size of a toaster oven, maybe a bit heavier. For a factory to make a million of these per year, yes, that is over 2700 units per day. Let's say the boxed unit occupies 0.25 cubic meters. Doing the math, we find that the volume output of this plant will be 675 cubic meters. That is a layer 100 meters by 6.75 meters by one meter deep, or, since a typical 18-wheeler trailer carries about 115 cubic meters, around six full tractor-trailer truckloads EVERY DAY of the year.
From a brand-new factory, making a product that's not yet been tested in quantity in public, that is undergoing design changes every day, it seems.
I am sorry, but this simply isn't plausible.
ETA: Is Rossi going to ship his cold fusion reactor units, with nickel and hydrogen cartridges .... UNTESTED? And the local plumber, unlicenced as a fusion mechanic, is just going to hook it up and turn it on, and there won't be any problems. Just like when you bring home your home theater system, or your new car, or your new computer system, or your.....
Oh, never mind.
this is hilarious.
everybody in the world who knows anything at all about the standard model, to which tk/al so casually refers, understands that:
the standard model is nothing more than a theory.
furthermore, theories are never 'proven'...
and finally the whole THEORY of the standard model DEPENDS upon the discovery of the higgs boson. without it, the whole model breaks and crashes to the ground.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 01, 2012, 11:28:23 PM
Rosie Posie:
So all that you have is an ad-hominem attack?
LOLLING all over the floor...
MH... stfu. you don't even know what constitutes an 'ad hominem attack'. ::)
Gwandau:
I think that you are dreaming when you compare a low energy fusion nuclear reactor to a DVD player. I quoted a factory production engineer about the complexities and size of the undertaking to manufacture a million units per year and based on my own personal experience he is 100% correct.
The more I think about it, the less it makes sense for a "home E-Cat." For what, to heat water for your morning shower and to wash your dishes? Do you really think people will buy a nuclear reactor to do that?
The real "low hanging fruit" application would be for the industrial requirement for massive amounts of cheap heat. There is a potentially huge market for this. Any possible home market would be years and years away. So why is Rossi talking about the home market? It doesn't make sense to me.
Wilby: You stfu yourself you rude underground code monkey!!!
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco,
This ain't no fooling around
No time for dancing, or lovey dovey,
You ain't got time for that now
MileHigh
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 02, 2012, 04:29:29 PM
So a domestic ECat is simple and compact. About the size of a toaster oven, maybe a bit heavier. For a factory to make a million of these per year, yes, that is over 2700 units per day. Let's say the boxed unit occupies 0.25 cubic meters. Doing the math, we find that the volume output of this plant will be 675 cubic meters. That is a layer 100 meters by 6.75 meters by one meter deep, or, since a typical 18-wheeler trailer carries about 115 cubic meters, around six full tractor-trailer truckloads EVERY DAY of the year.
From a brand-new factory, making a product that's not yet been tested in quantity in public, that is undergoing design changes every day, it seems.
I am sorry, but this simply isn't plausible.
TinselKoala,
where on earth did you get 0,25 kubic meters from??
An e-cat is said to have about the size of a laptop. The momentum of your scepticism is falling flat by deviating from reported information.
So the size of an e-cat is according to Andrea Rossi about the size of a laptop. Just a couple of centimeters thicker.
This makes the probable size of the e-cat package about 80mm thick, 0,35 meters wide and 0,45 meters long.
Three thousand e-cats, each in a 80 mm thick package of 0,35 m times 0,45 m width makes them 0,0126 cubic meters each,
makes eighty (79) units in each cubic meter, in turn making one days' production of three thousand units occupying about
38 cubic meters which would easily fit into any trailer.
Please guys, try to keep to the few facts given, otherwise you risk being regarded as trolls.
Gwandau
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 06:54:39 PM
Wilby: You stfu yourself you rude underground code monkey!!!
MileHigh
then please be good enough to explain yourself... how, EXACTLY, was rose's comment to you (the one you accused of being ad hominem) ad hominen? see if you can do it without looking up what actually constitutes ad hominem... LOL
'you sir, are an idiot.' see? that's not ad hominem... i can call you any name i desire and it's not 'ad hominem' as long as i don't attempt to disqualify your claim by use of said name calling. there. now you are a little wiser.
although i don't really expect the 'litmus test' guy to comprehend logical fallacies. ::)
Guys it seems that there's some evidence of moderation, - in the form of a caution. Hopefully this will indeed, be applied. Meanwhile, just a small reminder about the many misdirections that are heavily relied on - please note. I have never even THOUGHT let alone proposed that Gamma emissions comprised heavy particles. So. TK. Could you kindly show us all precisely where I claimed this?
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 02, 2012, 04:29:29 PMNotice that she doesn't say "It was wrong to insist that gammas were heavy particles, sorry, I stand corrected", nor does she even fall back on the easy excuse I gave her: "Oh, I was confusing Gamma Rays with Cosmic Rays, sorry, language barrier, mistranslation, gammas are in fact EM radiation just as TK says, I looked it up in several places and I'm convinced."
Which means that I most certainly will NOT be applying that ridiculous excuse that you seem to require. What's more to the point as it's pertinent to this topic - is that you fail to point out that there are NO GAMMA RAY EMISSIONS from Rossi's E-cat. I can't think why this eluded you?
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 02, 2012, 04:29:29 PMRossi has gammas when they are convenient, like when he has to explain heating, where he says that the gammas (from inside) are absorbed in the lead shielding (outside) where they are converted to heat. He doesn't explain how, if lead melts at a certain temperature, he is able to heat steam to above that temperature, without having a lot of liquid lead running out all over his shoes--- except that lately, now that the temperature problem has been pointed out, he says he's using some other secret material to shield and thermalize the gammas that either are or aren't there.
It really doesn't matter to any of us what is happening in that reactor. Other than there are NO GAMMA EMISSIONS. There may be BETA emissions. And they're easily shielded.
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 02, 2012, 04:29:29 PMBecause Rossi doesn't have gammas when they are inconvenient, like when the Florida nuclear regulatory official visited him and asked about his device, his factory, and whether it contained any hazardous material or produced any harmful radiation. "No" says Rossi, ignoring the toxicity of finely-divided nickel, the hazard of hydrogen, and the gammas that are supposed to produce his heat. Not only that, but his million-unit-per year factory moves around a lot.... first it's in Florida, then it's not in the USA at all.
There is no toxicity in 'finely-divided nickel'. The quantities of hydrogen in the mix is NOT hazardous.
The calculations requiring 1 million units per year are claimed by both Defkalion and Rossi - and are based on the known output of a plant that will be entirely mechanised.
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 02, 2012, 04:29:29 PMI am sorry, but this simply isn't plausible.
Which, I would have thought, would make his predicted output rather plausible.
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 02, 2012, 04:29:29 PMIs Rossi going to ship his cold fusion reactor units, with nickel and hydrogen cartridges .... UNTESTED? And the local plumber, unlicenced as a fusion mechanic, is just going to hook it up and turn it on, and there won't be any problems. Just like when you bring home your home theater system, or your new car, or your new computer system, or your.....
I am sure that he's enough of an industrialist to know that standards would need to be checked. And I suspect that he would know how to apply this. And there is no reason for him to propose that he'll do more or less than what he says. It's not as if he's looking for investment funds from anyone. Why should he lie?
Hopefully you'll uncover more plausible explanations for your concerns related to the potential successful launch of the E-Cat which may, indeed, be as early as September this year.
Rosemary
Wilby:
Go find another hotspot you have been connected for too long already. Perhaps next to the smelly dumpster behind the Denny's across town?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 07:32:09 PM
Wilby:
Go find another hotspot you have been connected for too long already. Perhaps next to the smelly dumpster behind the Denny's across town?
MileHigh
how does your response address my question at all? in point of fact it does not. thus, it is a logical fallacy known as a 'red herring'... which is your usual fare milehigh, why am i not surprised? so then, i'll take your tacit refusal to answer and your last 'red herring' as evidence that you have no idea what constitutes a logical fallacy... ad hominem or otherwise.
And guys, what really concerns me is that MileHigh and TK will manage to get this thread locked as well. Sadly it's what they intend. And they've got a history of managing this very ably. Perhaps it would be best to let their posts just go unanswered. Not sure what the best approach is.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 06:54:39 PM
Gwandau:
I think that you are dreaming when you compare a low energy fusion nuclear reactor to a DVD player. I quoted a factory production engineer about the complexities and size of the undertaking to manufacture a million units per year and based on my own personal experience he is 100% correct.
MileHigh,
you seem to miss the point, this is not a complicated high tech product, it is actually an utterly simple combination of perfectly calibrated
parameters never earlier combined this way. And the inventor himself has admitted that he really do not know what happens on the atomic level.
He is just a simple engineer that finally hit the correct parameters after 18 years of continuing the old trail started by Fleishaman and Pons.
The simplicity of the e-cat is no secret. Andrea Rossi himself has given indication about the incredible simplicity of the e-cat.
The secret behind its function is due to the correct combination of catalyzers within a sealed compartment.
It's probably just a stainless steel tube surrounded by water within a copper case with an outlet. The presence of nickel powder in combination
with hydrogen and the induction of some heat and correct electromagnetic frequency may be the only thing needed.
Once the first e-cat reaches the market, anybody with some basic engineer skills will be able to copy it.
So it is obviously nothing complex, just the right configuration and the right triggering mechanism.
Regarding the reason for producing those dirt cheap domestic units, I am not too sure that the only reason for the course of actions
taken by Andrea Rossi is money.
He wants to change things, and by producing home units he will start an avalanche of energy grid related changes.
I regard Andrea Rossi as a revolutionary of the modern times, speeding up the transition into the grid free society.
Gwandau
Rosemary:
No way on your previous posting questioning my motivations. I made a legitimate posting questioning the validity of Rossi's claims about a factory producing a million units per year and your reply to my posting was in the gutter. You are a very very black pot.
Here is your quote from earlier in the thread where you state that gamma rays are particles.:
QuoteGamma rays, on the other hand, ONLY refer to the particles that comprise the atom's nucleus, being the protons and the neutrons. And these are somewhat hazardous - in whatever form - highly penetrative - and typically with a frightening and long lasting toxicity. And also, typically these are proposed to be 'contained' by the strong concrete shielding around our nuclear reactors. Sadly, there is no known and effective means to dispose of this waste.
You then went on to argue the point that gamma rays were particles, and then you did an about-face and contradicted yourself.
Another quote from you:
QuotePerhaps you should spend more than 10 minutes on that link. It EXPLAINS that gamma ray emissions relate to the changes in the atomic NUCLEUS. And the only known particles in the atomic nucleus are protons and neutrons.
It's mind-boggling.
It would appear to me that you can't fathom that a nucleus consisting of protons and neutrons could emit a gamma ray since the only building blocks in the nucleus that are available are particles - hence gamma rays must consist of particles.
A quote from me followed by response a quote from you:
Me:
Quotetherefore gamma rays must be particles
You:
QuoteINDEED. Well done. That's EXACTLY WHAT I'M PROPOSING.
MileHigh
Gwandau:
Quoteyou seem to miss the point, this is not a complicated high tech product, it is actually an utterly simple combination of perfectly calibrated
parameters never earlier combined this way. And the inventor himself has admitted that he really do not know what happens on the atomic level.
I can see that I am not going to get through to you so we will leave it at that. The thing is a NUCLEAR REACTOR. Think about that some more and perhaps do some reading.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 07:54:03 PM
No way on your previous posting questioning my motivations. I made a legitimate posting questioning the validity of Rossi's claims about a factory producing a million units per year and your reply to my posting was in the gutter. You are a very very black pot.
that's funny being your last response in this very thread to my legitimate posting refuting the validity of your 'ad hominem' claim was:
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 07:32:09 PM
Wilby:
Go find another hotspot you have been connected for too long already. Perhaps next to the smelly dumpster behind the Denny's across town?
MileHigh
hypocrite much? you're still trying to figure out that whole 'integrity' thing i see. and still failing. LOLLING all over the floor...
MileHigh - let me just cut to the chase. Gamma Rays, any rays - any emissions - comprise particles. At their basic levels everything that can be measured relates to a particulate foundational base. These emissions can be photons, or electrons, or neutrons or - in some cases I believe even ions. They use neutron bombardment for some cancer therapies. And I believe protons. That bombardment is in the form of a 'ray' of particles. Always they comprise particles. Why would you assume otherwise? Heisenberg's wave particle duality relies on this. And experimental evidence has also and always confirmed this. Of COURSE gamma rays are particles. But Gamma ray emissions are specific to the changes in an atomic nucleus and are known to be highly penetrative and highly toxic.
So again. When you say this...
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 07:54:03 PM
It would appear to me that you can't fathom that a nucleus consisting of protons and neutrons could emit a gamma ray since the only building blocks in the nucleus that are available are particles - hence gamma rays must consist of particles.
you're also 'spot on'. That's indeed my understanding. I know that a neutron has a 20 minute life span. I know that a proton has an infinite life span. I know that both particles can decay into a variety of smaller particles. I also know that an electron is considered to be a fundamental particle and is not known to decay. As is a photon. And they're both considered to have infinite life spans. But I also know that ALL emissions comprise particles. There can be no emissions if what is being emitted is not fundamentally and profoundly a particle - of some sort. What do you propose is emitted in these emissions be they alpha, beta or gamma? If not particles? I cannot understand your objection.
Kindest regards MileHigh
Rosemary
Rosemary:
So it's a big contentious argument about nothing. It would appear that you are not aware of what the usual standard baseline of understanding is so that people can communicate about this stuff with some measure of implicit understanding. Otherwise we would go nuts.
The baseline of understanding is to separate the decay products into real tangible products and electromagnetic radiation. Everybody knows about wave-particle duality, but that is not normally considered for this type of discussion. It's always been understood that when discussing these matters, that the concept of tangible physical decay particles and EM radiation is the basic frame of reference for the discussion.
This concept is so universally accepted that I didn't think that you would be arguing that photons are particles. More hot air for nothing.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 07:58:00 PM
Gwandau:
I can see that I am not going to get through to you so we will leave it at that. The thing is a NUCLEAR REACTOR. Think about that some more and perhaps do some reading.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
You know just as well as me or anyone here that the processes within the e-cat are totally unknown to contemporary science.
It is nothing near to our old concepts of nuclear reactors. You know that.
To call it a nuclear reaction within the concept of our contemporary nuclear knowledge is uncorrect.
Yes, there seems to be some kind of nuclear reaction, since there is gamma rays and the conversion of nickel to copper,
but that is about all that fits into the old school concept of a nuclear reaction.
What is really strange here is the low amount of gamma ray expressed, contradicting any nuclear physics math.
Also the low energy input in regard to the energy output is freaky to any nuclear scientist of today.
So to throw at me the assumtion that this just a nuclear reaction, easily explained by old school knowledge
indicates that you actually totally have missed the point.
If Andrea Rossi is genuin, his findings will soon change not only the contemporary definition and
understanding of the processes within the atoms and our very definition of a nuclear process,
but as well the scientific outlook on reality, opening a vista of possibilities far beyond our wildest dreams.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
In the early days of cold fusion the argument was that they did not understand how the fusion was initiated, but once it was indeed initiated, the cold fusion process did exactly what the hot fusion process did.
In other words, the 'trick' was to figure out an alternative way to fuse two nuclei, and then after that there were no tricks, the fusion reaction did exactly what it was supposed to do.
You seem to be implying that "everything is new" and even the nuclear reactions that take place after fusion is initiated are all new. I personally don't believe that for one second. If you agree that "everything is new," than you are trying to imply that there are two different types of fusion reaction once the nuclei are fused, "normal" and "LENR." There is just no way that is true, it's impossible as far as I am concerned.
Let's look at an example of how this could apply to Rossi. They analyzed the copper reactant from his device. In theory this was supposed to be copper produced as a result of nuclear fusion. If that was true, they know what the ratio of the isotopes in that copper should be. What they found however, was that the isotope ratios were identical to naturally occurring copper.
So, does that mean Rossi was cheating and he put regular copper into his device? Or does it mean that a new second type of "LENR" fusion just magically produces copper in exactly the same isotope ratios as naturally occurring copper?
In fact, the copper isotope example is indicating that Rossi is actually a con artist and cheating.
We have time to wait and see what the results are. However, if Rossi doesn't produce anything in five years, then as far as I am concerned he is a con artist. Some of these people can go on for years and years and still have believers. I believe that Blacklight Power has gone through $400 million dollars worth of investor money over 15-20 years and they have never produced anything.
I can accept the idea that somehow there is a way to fuse two nuclei together with less than expected energy - if you can prove it and show the production of significant amounts of power. But I can't accept that something "new" happens once fusion actually takes place.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 08:40:25 PM
Rosemary:
So it's a big contentious argument about nothing. It would appear that you are not aware of what the usual standard baseline of understanding is so that people can communicate about this stuff with some measure of implicit understanding. Otherwise we would go nuts.
The baseline of understanding is to separate the decay products into real tangible products and electromagnetic radiation. Everybody knows about wave-particle duality, but that is not normally considered for this type of discussion. It's always been understood that when discussing these matters, that the concept of tangible physical decay particles and EM radiation is the basic frame of reference for the discussion.
This concept is so universally accepted that I didn't think that you would be arguing that photons are particles. More hot air for nothing.
Then what were you objecting to MileHigh? You complained that I insisted that gamma rays were particulate in essence. You denied this. Now you agree? Is it because you assume that electromagnetic radiation is NOT particulate? Somehow? Otherwise I cannot understand why you charged through so many posts demanding to be told why I CLAIMED so ECCENTRICALLY - that gamma rays were essentially particles? Please be good enough to explain this. I would have thought that my reminder about Heisenberg's principles was rather apt. I get the distinct impression that you lost sight of the fact that when a particle is in motion the only thing that can be determined with any degree of certainty is it's velocity. And when a particle is in a state of rest its properties may be entirely unrelated it's state of motion. That's the paradox MileHigh. And as Wilby has pointed out. The only possible resolution or even justification for any description relies on the postulated Higgs Boson. And that's still not been proved. We were promised proof in 2010. Now they're hoping for this year. But there's nothing tangible. So far. Which also means that there's nothing that's entirely known. Other than the fact that indeed - behind every emission is a particle - of some sort.
Kindest regards again,
Rosemary
Photons are normally considered massless particles Rosemary, that's the point. No surprise that you won't even acknowledge my points about the normal, standard, universally understood frame of reference for these discussions. No concessions from you.
But a big concession is looming on another thread.
MileHigh
MileHigh, This post of yours is alarming.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 09:12:37 PMIn the early days of cold fusion the argument was that they did not understand how the fusion was initiated, but once it was indeed initiated, the cold fusion process did exactly what the hot fusion process did.In other words, the 'trick' was to figure out an alternative way to fuse two nuclei, and then after that there were no tricks, the fusion reaction did exactly what it was supposed to do.
Not exactly. In the early days cold fusion was discredited as there were no required gamma ray emissions. This was courtesy the famous - to become infamous - debunk under the auspices of Dr Vest.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 09:12:37 PMYou seem to be implying that "everything is new" and even the nuclear reactions that take place after fusion is initiated are all new. I personally don't believe that for one second. If you agree that "everything is new," than you are trying to imply that there are two different types of fusion reaction once the nuclei are fused, "normal" and "LENR." There is just no way that is true, it's impossible as far as I am concerned.
Whether or not this is a new study or an old study depends on your view point related to the 25 years that have transpired since it was discovered - by Dr Pons. Prior to this the assumption was that the transmutation of elements required the hot blast of a SUPER NOVA to cook the simple hydrogen atom into the complexities of our periodic table. And subsequent to that there is no known explanation of this transmutation of elements without that required heat.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 09:12:37 PMLet's look at an example of how this could apply to Rossi. They analyzed the copper reactant from his device. In theory this was supposed to be copper produced as a result of nuclear fusion. If that was true, they know what the ratio of the isotopes in that copper should be. What they found however, was that the isotope ratios were identical to naturally occurring copper.
There is clear and unequivocal evidence of copper and sundry trace elements that were absolutely not part of the initial mix. Therefore their existence requires analysis. I know for a FACT that Rossi has made no claims regarding this evidence. He has asked for expert comment.
So. When you put this spin of the story ...
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 09:12:37 PMSo, does that mean Rossi was cheating and he put regular copper into his device? Or does it mean that a new second type of "LENR" fusion just magically produces copper in exactly the same isotope ratios as naturally occurring copper? In fact, the copper isotope example is indicating that Rossi is actually a con artist and cheating.
then not only is is libelous but it is entirely inappropriate to the known claim related to this evidence. Let me remind you MileHigh. Rossi has made NO public explanation for the over unity results nor the evidence of the transmutation of the elements. He only offers the experimental evidence. And as Gwandau has pointed out - he is not asking the public for their money. So why would you assume that he's conning anyone at all?
Rosemary
changed 30 years to 25 years - which I think is right.
MileHigh,
thanks for a descent response to my earlier post in this overheated topic.
To give Andrea Rossi a five year term to prove he's walking his talk is quite generous, but then again we may have to
take into consideration the counteracting efforts made by those not approving this possible change in energy source.
Regarding the LENR process, I would be very thankful to get hold of any scientifically approved report on the precise
nuclear process present in LENR. As far as I know, no such approved report exists.
To the contrary, any credited nuclear scientist tells us it is impossible to create a fusion reaction of the e-cat magnitude without a lot more gamma radiation
expressed in a fusion process. The few centimeters of lead is far from enough to shield the e-cat, if seen from old school nuclear science.
This is where things get strange, since if the ratio of isotopes in the copper would have been according to old school knowledge, the fusion process needed for
the transition to the expected isotope ratio would have been bound to incorporate a massive production of gamma radiation, far above the levels detected.
It may be that the isotope ratios identical to naturally occurring copper is the very sign that the nuclear process in LENR is something quite different to regular fusion.
So the scenario is that if you are observing LENR from the orthodox standpoint, everything points to that Andrea Rossi is a con artist.
But if you take a step outside the box and observe this strange isotope deviation as a sign of entrance into uncharted areas of nuclear knowledge,
things become intriguing and inspiring.
As I said earlier, it's all about chosing side this far into the story.
Gwandau
What a lovely forum page. I’ll undoubtedly be back again. Please maintain writing!
So... Rossi's domestic ECat is supposed to be the size of a laptop computer. And, all packaged up and ready for shipping to the customer or the Big Box Store, it is supposed to come to much less than 0.25 cubic meter. OK, I guess nobody has actually bought a laptop lately and had to deal with the packaging and so on.
The size of a laptop computer. And it has a COP of 6, and produces 10 kW of heat. The COP of six means that it must be SUPPLIED, constantly, and for at least an hour before and an hour after heat producing operation, an electrical INPUT of 10 kW/6, or over 1600 Watts. The most powerful portable electric heaters and toaster ovens available for domestic use in the USA are rated at 1500 Watts maximum. They are somewhat larger than a laptop, especially when you include the packaging and accessories. And if you set one on your kitchen table and turn it on.... your kitchen will warm up fairly quickly. And these are devices that contain nothing more complex than a length of nichrome wire and a simple bimetal thermostat.
What is the output capacity of the plant in China that makes these electric heaters and toaster ovens? Do they do a million units a year? How long did it take the Chinese to get such a plant into operation? Have you ever had a problem of any kind with a device that came from a Chinese high-volume factory? Would you want a fusion reactor from a high-volume Chinese factory sitting in your basement?
Is there an Italian espresso machine factory that makes a million espresso machines a year?
They are just questions, Leon.
Some further links on the toxicity of nickel and nickel powder:
From the Wiki:
Quote
Toxicity In the US, the minimal risk level of nickel and its compounds is set to 0.2 µg/m3 for inhalation during 15â€"364 days.[55] Nickel sulfide fume and dust are believed to be carcinogenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen), and various other nickel compounds may be as well.[56][57] Nickel carbonyl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_carbonyl), [Ni(CO)4], is an extremely toxic gas. The toxicity of metal carbonyls is a function of both the toxicity of the metal as well as the carbonyl's ability to give off highly toxic carbon monoxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide) gas, and this one is no exception; nickel carbonyl is also explosive in air.[58][59] Sensitized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensitization) individuals may show an allergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergy) to nickel, affecting their skin, also known as dermatitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatitis). Sensitivity to nickel may also be present in patients with pompholyx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyshidrosis). Nickel is an important cause of contact allergy, partly due to its use in jewellery intended for pierced ears (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierced_ear).[60] Nickel allergies affecting pierced ears are often marked by itchy, red skin. Many earrings are now made nickel-free due to this problem. The amount of nickel allowed in products that come into contact with human skin is regulated by the European Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union). In 2002, researchers found amounts of nickel being emitted by 1 and 2 Euro coins far in excess of those standards. This is believed to be due to a galvanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanization) reaction.[61]
Nickel was voted Allergen of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergen_of_the_Year) in 2008 by the American Contact Dermatitis Society.[62]
Reports also showed that both the nickel-induced activation of hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF-1) and the up-regulation of hypoxia-inducible genes are due to depleted intracellular ascorbate levels. The addition of ascorbate to the culture medium increased the intracellular ascorbate level and reversed both the metal-induced stabilization of HIF-1- and HIF-1α-dependent gene expression.[63][64]
A MDS data sheet on nickel powder:
http://nickel.vale.com/products/_pdf/msds/Nickel_Powder_Type_255-EU.pdf (http://nickel.vale.com/products/_pdf/msds/Nickel_Powder_Type_255-EU.pdf)
A 'herbal remedies' site with links on nickel toxicity:
http://www.herbalremedies.com/nickel-toxicity-information.html (http://www.herbalremedies.com/nickel-toxicity-information.html)
A good scholarly article on nickel toxicity:
http://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profiles/nickel_and_nickel_compounds_f_V1.html (http://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profiles/nickel_and_nickel_compounds_f_V1.html)
Note that nickel powder is often prepared from nickel carbonyl, an extremely toxic fluid, liquid or gaseous. This fluid is also used in isotopic enrichment of nickel.
@ TinselKoala
I agree with you on that Gamma emissions are simply more energetic X-rays. Rossi does say his device emits Gamma rays that are low energy which is to say X-rays is it not? In fact X-rays are low energy Gamma rays and are considered Gamma rays when they are above some energy level.
I'm not sure who is offering their experience on the ability to manufacture a million units a year, but this task is not as difficult as it's being made out to be. Surly no idiot would just build a single line and expect it to output a million units a year! The idea is to build a simple line to produce a few hundred units a week, perfect it to produce good units, improve the throughput, then duplicate the lines as the last step. Are these idiots actually in charge of ANY production in the US? No wonder the US is going to crap! we have dumb asses in charge.
Loner:
Your characterization is not true and you are just spinning the facts to argue your own extreme point of view. Who wouldn't want it to turn out that nickel and hydrogen could become a nearly unlimited source of power?
The problem is, how come the very first time Rossi was supposed to make a definitive and clear presentation of his system that could be easily verified by unbiased third-party testers this WASN'T DONE? Why? Why does that always happen?
How come when he was going to demonstrate the one-megawatt system he only demonstrated allegedly 400 kilowatts and and there STILL wasn't clear and unambiguous measurements made by independent third-party testers? How come while he was allegedly demonstrating 400 kilowatts output there was a big honking 500 kilowatt generator running at the SAME TIME?
Do you ever ask yourself these types of questions?
Look, what's the easiest and simplest and least ambiguous way to demonstrate heat production?
The answer is to run cold water in at a measurable flow rate and then run the same water out at an elevated temperature at the identical flow rate. That is the GIANT NO-BRAINER way to measure heat production and everybody knows that.
What does Rossi do? Claim steam production, all very ambiguous, not easy to measure at all, all sorts of arguments about wet steam vs. dry stream..... A bloody mess!
Myself and thousands and thousands of other people were anticipating the no-brainer test and I was shocked when it wasn't done.
So what you need to to is open your mind. So far, Rossi is following the "con by numbers" book all the way.... Seriously, open your mind.
I would be thrilled if this were all true... But as it stands now, it looks like Rossi will be promising the "real demo this time" in 2020. That's a shame.
MileHigh
P.S.: You and others are dreaming in technicolour if you think this device will be "non-complicated." If this thing is real and it malfunctions while you are standing next to it it could emit enough gamma radiation to kill you in two hours. It's bloody nuclear reactor, think about that. Some of you make it sound like they are building a cheese cutter.
@Everyone:
Here are some additional quotes from the interview Rossi granted to Oilprice.com on March 29, 2012:
Oilprice.com: Would you be able to tell us about the early days just before the E-Cat and what you were working on?
Andrea Rossi: I was working on energy plants powered by biomasses. Mainly waste biomasses, which didn’t compete with food.
Oilprice.com: Darwin fretted for a long time about whether or not he should tell the world about his Theory of Evolution, He knew that it would turn science on its head and therefore many would not believe him. Your E-Cat machine is similar. Many scientists don’t want to believe it because it defies their original beliefs. Did you ever question yourself when you first made the discovery? Did you refuse to believe at first?
Andrea Rossi: Yes, of course I questioned my discovery. It was hard to believe that I had finally produced a working example of LENR. I paid Sergio Focardi, the physicist and emeritus professor at the University of Bologna, to try and convince me that I was wrong, and relieve me of my obsession with LENR. In the end I ended up convincing him, and he decided to work with me in developing the E-Cat machine.
Oilprice.com: Could you tell us a little more about your discussions with Sergio Focardi?
Andrea Rossi: There weren’t really any discussions. Like myself, Focardi is a man of few words. I just told him I would pay â,¬10,000 to teach me why my technology was wrong which he accepted. But he didn’t earn the â,¬10,000 because he has not been able to do so. This then led to him becoming my partner.
Enjoy ;D
Chess
You guys should check this out
http://esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer
esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer
copy, paste,didn't work for some reason
Doesn't seem to work,seems to be blocked,heres the web page in a text file,copy, paste
Toaster oven. Laptop computer. Just take it out of the box and anyone with a couple of pipe wrenches can hook it up for you. Gammas, pajammas, never mind all that, the Widow Larson has explained what makes us hot, and the mere 1600 Watts of continuous electrical grid power that you have to provide-- and pay for--- to get some warm water and hot air out the other end.... don't worry about that at all.
Quote from: cheappower2012 on April 03, 2012, 11:46:28 PM
domain_not_allowed.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer
copy, paste,didn't work for some reason
http://domain_not_allowed.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer (http://domain_not_allowed.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer)
Hmmm.... methinks censorship is active. I entered the text from your text file as a link... and the forum changed it to the above. Isn't that interesting.
I think it's interesting how people read things the way they want to hear them. Like the COP>6 claimed by Rossi. Some read the same results as I read but came up with the idea that the COP is always 6.
The fact is, this statement indicates that this would be an average most people would get because of the way they will be using the unit. Connected to some hot water storage container that holds about 50 gallons like a typical hot water tank or house boiler. Once the water is up to temperature, the unit turns off and will take another hour of power to start again.
The most efficient use would be to connect it to a swimming pool where the unit could never produce enough energy to heat such a huge mass of water, then after the first hour to start the unit, it will run without further input for SIX MONTHS. This would increase the COP to something much higher than 6.
Just an example!
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 01, 2012, 11:56:29 PM
Hi all,
Here is a image of .....
"The Electromagnetic Spectrum"
Westinghouse Research Laboratories
Chart - MB 1957 28" high x 41" long
Westinghouse Electrical Corporation
Printing Division Trafford, Pa
Copyright 1961 by
Westinghouse Electric Corporation
FTC
;)
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 01, 2012, 11:56:29 PM
Hi all,
Here is a image of .....
"The Electromagnetic Spectrum"
Westinghouse Research Laboratories
Chart - MB 1957 28" high x 41" long
Westinghouse Electrical Corporation
Printing Division Trafford, Pa
Copyright 1961 by
Westinghouse Electric Corporation
FTC
This spectrum is of the electromagnetic force. Now, extend the concept of the electromagnetic spectrum to include the weak nuclear force. The electromagnetic force is infinite in range, however the weak nuclear force is a very strong force over a tiny range interacting with the heavier W & Z bosons. This is what mainstream science is missing. What I'm saying easily explains why these gamma rays are incapable of penetrating a thin lead shield, however your ideas are based around a science which says these gamma rays should easily penetrate a thin layer of lead. What does the experimental evidence support? It supports that these gamma rays do not have the ability to penetrate through a thin layer of lead, which is opposite to what is expected in the currently accepted theory. It's called Low Level Nuclear Reactions for a reason. It's occurring at much lower energy levels than what was predicted possible by mainstream physics.
Gravock
Gravityblock:
QuoteThis spectrum is of the electromagnetic force. Now, extend the concept of the electromagnetic spectrum to include the weak nuclear force. The electromagnetic force is infinite in range, however the weak nuclear force is a very strong force over a tiny range interacting with the heavier W & Z bosons. This is what mainstream science is missing. What I'm saying easily explains why these gamma rays are incapable of penetrating a thin lead shield, however your ideas are based around a science which says these gamma rays should easily penetrate a thin layer of lead. What does the experimental evidence support? It supports that these gamma rays do not have the ability to penetrate through a thin layer of lead, which is opposite to what is expected in the currently accepted theory. It's called Low Level Nuclear Reactions for a reason. It's occurring at much lower energy levels than what was predicted possible by mainstream physics.
The problem is that these are your personal theories and I am going to assume that you don't have anything to back them up. You cannot extend the concept of electromagnetic radiation to the weak nuclear force. From what I understand the strong force and the weak force can be compared to gravitational force, but only acting at very short distances, and they are not comparable to electromagnetic radiation. There is no "wavelength" or "intensity" or propagation through a medium associated with the weak force to make the weak force analogous to EM radiation. Your comparison is not valid in my opinion.
You talk about gamma rays and their ability or inability to penetrate a lead shield. However, you are not talking about the intensity of the gamma rays, their wavelength, and the thickness of the lead shield. Without discussing these parameters you can't make an argument one way or the other.
QuoteIt's called Low Level Nuclear Reactions for a reason. It's occurring at much lower energy levels than what was predicted possible by mainstream physics.
You are implying that everything is at a lower level. In my opinion you are missing the point. "Low level" refers to the amount of energy required to get one nucleus to smash into another nucleus with enough force to create fusion. It has nothing to do the resulting reaction after the fusion takes place. Seriously, anybody reading this that thought "everything is different" is making a big mistake.
You can assume for example that the rate that fusion is allegedly occurring in LENR is much lower a rate than the attempts at "hot" fusion would normally run at, but after fusion happens, the process is 100% the same.
So the "special" thing that is allegedly happening is that LENR can somehow create fusion, firing one nucleus at another nucleus with enough energy to create fusion, by somehow bouncing hydrogen atoms around inside a crystal lattice of nickel atoms. But to repeat, once fusion happens it's an identical reaction to hot fusion.
If somebody disagrees with me I would like to know why they disagree with me and just saying "it's different" is not going to convince me. Also, I am no expert here, just a lay person with a science background.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 03, 2012, 08:06:13 PM
P.S.: You and others are dreaming in technicolour if you think this device will be "non-complicated." If this thing is real and it malfunctions while you are standing next to it it could emit enough gamma radiation to kill you in two hours. It's bloody nuclear reactor, think about that. Some of you make it sound like they are building a cheese cutter.
I agree with Milehigh, cannot have a "reactor" at home so easely, the reactor will need to be licensed even if 100% safe and produce no wastes, this means Rossi team will have to provide tons of safety analyses in all situations, fire, flooding, earthquake, simple malfunctions, loss of control, loss of water inventory,... the nuclear regulatory body of the countries will allow or not installation on his ground, in addition the home owner i.e the operator of the "reactor" will possibly need a license to operate this thing. Nothing simple, would have been better if Rossi had discovered a chemical reaction. In addition each country which does not yet have a nuclear regulatory body will probably need one before to license the new reactor on their ground. I still beleive not feasable in 16 months.
parisd, milehigh, and all other sceptical pessimists,
The fear behind the word nuclear reactor is totally unfounded in this case, and does not fit into any LENR based fusion reactor.
Just as Andrea Rossi has indicated, to provide a satisfactory safety analysis is easy, since any malfunction just stops the reaction.
1. The reactor does not produce any wastes besides copper.
2. The e-cat cannot overheat since any heat excess destroys the nickel powder and immediately stops the reaction.
3. The nuclear reaction is of LENR type and cannot create any high energy Gamma emissions.
The e-cat will just become one of these simple installments in the basement that enhances your heat economy if you
are heating your house with electricity , and the only thing to worry about is that the reactor keeps adding heat to your house.
But as far as I am concerned, the electrical input needed to keep these things going cools me off quite a bit.
Only if getting one of them stripped of its heat exchanger and used as a nitinol driven electrical generator,
thus feeding generated electricity into itself and additionally into another e-cat would be interesting.
One e-cat of heat out of two e-cats, or even better, two e-cats of heat out of three e-cats would be great.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on April 04, 2012, 08:44:27 PM
parisd, milehigh, and all other sceptical pessimists,
The fear behind the word nuclear reactor is totally unfounded in this case, and does not fit into any LENR based fusion reactor.
Just as Andrea Rossi has indicated, to provide a satisfactory safety analysis is easy, since any malfunction just stops the reaction.
1. The reactor does not produce any wastes besides copper.
2. The e-cat cannot overheat since any heat excess destroys the nickel powder and immediately stops the reaction.
3. The nuclear reaction is of LENR type and cannot create any high energy Gamma emissions.
The e-cat will just become one of these simple installments in the basement that enhances you heat economy, and the only thing to
worry about is that the reactor keeps adding heat to your house. But as far as I am concerned, the electrical input needed to keep these
things going cools me of quite a bit.
Only if getting one of them stripped of its heat exchanger and used as a nitinol driven electrical generator,
thus feeding generated electricity into itself and into another e-cat would be interesting.
Gwandau
Notice how they do not attack the NASA scientists either by name or in general yet they would have this forum believe that they know better than NASA's top scientists as well as MIT!!! Do they really think people are going to overlook or forget the fact that they do not even try to refute credentialed scientists who ACKNOWLEDGE and ENDORSE LENR technology and have publicly gone on the record to convey this fact? It's so hillarious!!!
Then some are publicly (and liably) accusing Rossi of running a scam with the E-Cat yet not ONE SHRED OF PROOF has been presented! Because you can not have a scam without one single victim who has been cheated out of money, period. Where are these victims? Okay, then where is JUST ONE??? Where are the lawsuits claiming fraud even? Where is JUST ONE lawsuit filed against Rossi even alleging fraud over the E-Cat? (ROTFLMAO)
Really,
Chess
Gwandau:
Quote2. The e-cat cannot overheat since any heat excess destroys the nickel powder and immediately stops the reaction.
That statement doesn't make sense. Nickel can't be "destroyed." It can melt though.
Quote3. The nuclear reaction is of LENR type and cannot create any high energy Gamma emissions.
That is a known contradiction in that Rossi says that it emits gamma radiation but when he met with the government representatives he claimed it didn't emit gamma radiation.
The issue about gamma radiation is probably related to the alleged rate of fusion. Low rates will equal low amounts of gamma radiation. But I want to emphasize again that the fusion reaction itself, whether "regular" or LENR, will emit exactly the same amount of gamma radiation at exactly the same energy level when the fusion takes place. I am not so sure that you understand that.
I can sense that you want to believe that the E-Cat is a nearly perfect, benign and absolutely safe producer of heat. You are making it sound too good to be true and that simply doesn't smell right.
Sorry to repeat myself, but I simply can't envision that the first commercial implementation of the E-Cat will be the "home" version. It just doesn't make sense, and by extension Rossi is not making sense. The pieces of the puzzle are not fitting together in my opinion.
MileHigh
Chessnyt:
QuoteNotice how they do not attack the NASA scientists either by name or in general yet they would have this forum believe that they know better than NASA's top scientists as well as MIT!!! Do they really think people are going to overlook or forget the fact that they do not even try to refute credentialed scientists who ACKNOWLEDGE and ENDORSE LENR technology and have publicly gone on the record to convey this fact? It's so hillarious!!!
If you can provide some links I will have a look. I would be interested in reading and seeing what's up and then I will share my thoughts on what the articles have to say.
QuoteThen some are publicly (and liably) accusing Rossi of running a scam with the E-Cat yet not ONE SHRED OF PROOF has been presented!
This is the same old exercise in logic that has to be brought up over and over. It's about the burden of proof. The skeptics don't have to prove that Rossi is wrong. It's Rossi that has to prove that he is right, the burden of proof falls on his shoulders.
If you don't accept that, then prove to me that giant pink elephants don't materialize in the sky over the center of Greenland every second Tuesday.
Now, since I am willing to look at the NASA scientist stuff, would you be willing to tackle a related issue: Whenever Rossi has done a demo he never presented credible evidence that could be verified by independent third-party testers. Please have a look at my posting #891. Would you care to comment?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 04, 2012, 10:13:41 PM
Chessnyt:
...This is the same old exercise in logic that has to be brought up over and over. It's about the burden of proof. The skeptics don't have to prove that Rossi is wrong. It's Rossi that has to prove that he is right, the burden of proof falls on his shoulders.
If you don't accept that, then prove to me that giant pink elephants don't materialize in the sky over the center of Greenland every second Tuesday.
MileHigh
@MileHigh:
People in this thread have been accusing Rossi of running a scam. This is defamation of character my friend. This is clearly slanderous and malicious conduct.
My dictionary defines "scam" as:
To scam means to victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" I'm not asking you to locate pink elephants or find the white unicorn. There is no such thing as a victimless scam. It's a contradiction in terms. Back to the definition again;
"To scam means to victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change".
So where is just one (not a pink spotted elephant or green horned unicorn) victim who was scammed by Rossi concerning the E-Cat? Can you simply just name one victim who has been cheated out of money by Rossi concerning the E-Cat?
Waiting,
Chess Knight
QuoteGwandau:
That statement doesn't make sense. Nickel can't be "destroyed." It can melt though.
MileHigh,
You know exactly what I meant when saying that the Nickel pulver was "destroyed".
QuoteThe issue about gamma radiation is probably related to the alleged rate of fusion. Low rates will equal low amounts of gamma radiation.
But I want to emphasize again that the fusion reaction itself, whether "regular" or LENR, will emit exactly the same amount of gamma radiation at exactly the same energy level when the fusion takes place. I am not so sure that you understand that.
I am not so sure that you understand how little the nuclear physiscists really understand about what's going on in the Atomic nucleus.
Their model is halting severely, and their reason behind their search for the Higgs particle shows their lack of understanding.
Without finding their Higgs particle, there is no fundament for the theory of a physical particle, which somehow confuses
and worries the contemporary science.
But everything indicates that there exist no real physical particles in universe.
Everything seem to be standing waves interacting and creating the appearence of physicality.
So what really goes on within the Atom are pure guesses incorporated to a halting model that soon will be revised.
Quote
Sorry to repeat myself, but I simply can't envision that the first commercial implementation of the E-Cat will be the "home" version. It just doesn't make sense, and by extension Rossi is not making sense. The pieces of the puzzle are not fitting together in my opinion.
MileHigh
Wrong,
The first commercial implementation of the E-Cat is the 1MW units, one delivered and several on order.
If you want one, you can order one today, and get the 1MW unit within three months.
The reason you don't understand why Andrea Rossi is involved in the dirt cheap e-cat for domestic use,
is because you only think in terms of money.
As I have said before, Andrea Rossi want an energy revolution just as much as getting rich.
Give me one single reason for Andrea Rossi being a con artist. The whole e-cat project is economically beyond his control.
He won't earn a single penny until the product have returned interest to the trust now owning the e-cat.
Quote
I can sense that you want to believe that the E-Cat is a nearly perfect, benign and absolutely safe producer of heat. You are making it sound too good to be true and that simply doesn't smell right.
Would it be so terrible if he was a good and honest man without doing everything your way?
Maybe the smell you feel is your own reeking suspiciousness to all and everything opposing the familiar.
Be open until Andrea Rossi is proven true or false.
Why are you in such a hurry to disprove him, even before this is possible?
Open your heart, you got nothing to lose but your ego. ;)
Gwandau
Quote from: MileHigh on April 04, 2012, 11:52:45 AM
You are implying that everything is at a lower level. In my opinion you are missing the point. "Low level" refers to the amount of energy required to get one nucleus to smash into another nucleus with enough force to create fusion. It has nothing to do the resulting reaction after the fusion takes place. Seriously, anybody reading this that thought "everything is different" is making a big mistake.
You can assume for example that the rate that fusion is allegedly occurring in LENR is much lower a rate than the attempts at "hot" fusion would normally run at, but after fusion happens, the process is 100% the same.
So the "special" thing that is allegedly happening is that LENR can somehow create fusion, firing one nucleus at another nucleus with enough energy to create fusion, by somehow bouncing hydrogen atoms around inside a crystal lattice of nickel atoms. But to repeat, once fusion happens it's an identical reaction to hot fusion.
If somebody disagrees with me I would like to know why they disagree with me and just saying "it's different" is not going to convince me. Also, I am no expert here, just a lay person with a science background.
MileHigh
I,m thinking the reaction with LENR and that of hot fusion would indeed be very different. Based on a simple reaction of an ionized gas dropping an energy level, a photon is emitted with a wavelength based on the change of the electron shell distance, so given that LENR is taking place within a confined lattice that has pushed the atoms so tightly together that fusion takes place, then one might assume also that the energy released may also be restricted with tighter spacing and may produce Gamma rays with longer wavelengths or different than those of hot fusion. Additionally, LENR appears to not produce any free Neutrons or at least free Neutrons of high energy, again unlike hot fusion.
So if the initial reaction is different than that of hot fusion, why would anyone assume the results would be the same as hot fusion? There is no basis to assume the results would be the same.
The process is NOT the same, only the results are the same.
Just my opinion of course.
I still dont see how low energy gammas that will be fully absorbed by a lead shielding will be able to heat water outside of this shield unless the shield itself becomes very hot on its external surface, not sure lead shield become that hot under low energy gammas and if the case I imagine the nickel being even hotter (read unstable at high temperature), I need to search outside of this forum for some design elements or ideas if they are available which is not sure.
Also Google search keyword "NASA LENR COLD FUSION" gave lots of results from douzain of e-cats, coldfusion or LENR websites but none are official, they are just relaying internet euphoria or rumors about cold fusion. I finally found the official NASA site which said "experiences on LENR has shown to be useless". Please, someone, find me the real thing from NASA about replication of Cold fusion from an official NASA website, I could not by myself.
Not yet Googled MIT LENR.
@Parisd. In my understanding, the Nickle hydrogen reaction takes place in a copper vessel. That is placed inside a larger copper vessel , and water is circulated between the two vessels. The lead shielding is outside the outer copper vessel. I know next to nothing about Nuclear physics. But as I understand it, water can not be made radioactive by gamma rays. Nasa released a video on cold fusion in the last two months . You will find it on Peswiki Energy news.
@Chess, it is not being septical or trusting Rossi blindly, I (we) dont even know if the claims I (we) read are from Rossi himself or from internet rumors. For example where is located the existing 1MWe unit that have already been sold, does it produce hot water or electricity ? we need to get confirmation for the information we get as anything can be said so easily on the net. Nasa video on a OU website, why not on a recognized scientific website like www.sciencedaily.com, why not on CNN ?
If cold fusion do exist, we may not soon get easy access to it (no need to remind me it is a simple device without risk, I got it), this is just my opinion, you guys can have a completely different one, this is fine and expected. We should try to collect design details or operating details, just like neptune did in previous post, we never know the project may not see its birth as expected, petrol at 120$ brings a lot of money not only to oil cartels. Outside of OU forums, the LENR or E-cat is not known, it did not spread the world as cold fusion did in 1989.
Rossi not a scammer as nobody was or will be catched, true but he can also be an illuminated mind who wants to be heard or seen by as many people as he can in the world with false demonstrations, would he be the first ? Hope to be wrong, I would love to see cold fusion in my garage.
Happy Easter
I was excited when I heard about Rossi and then I was incredibly disappointed when he did his first public demo where he promised that there would be clear verifiable data proving that the reaction was happening. Then his second demo was another huge disappointment. Doesn't this kind of stuff register with you supporters out there?
I told you that if he cooled his alleged reactor with an easily measurable flow of cold-water-in - hot-water-out and ran it for an extended period of time it would have been amazing. Instead Rossi showed vague bullshit when thousands of people were thinking just like me.
Chessnyt: You are talking the talk but you are not walking the walk. I asked you to comment on Rossi's junk demos where no conclusive data was shown that was verified by third party testers and you have ignored the question.
About the scamming issue: You don't have see it in action in public. None of us know what Rossi's private dealings are. What we do know though is about human nature. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that excited, rich, and gullible people are practically throwing money at him for systems or a piece of the action. This happens all the time and we should not be naive when it comes to human nature. It's a distinct possibility that Rossi is scamming people in private.
Gwandau:
QuoteThe first commercial implementation of the E-Cat is the 1MW units, one delivered and several on order.
Wrong, I have read a couple of times already that the shipping container is still in the same place in Italy, it's hasn't moved an inch. Rossi's excuse is that some of the fluid couplings are leaking. That was a month ago. I am willing to bet you that if you did the searching right now and found fresh information not more than a few days old, you will discover that the shipping container has not been shipped!
QuoteIf you want one, you can order one today, and get the 1MW unit within three months.
In my opinion you are dreaming. Any movement about the production of a second 1 MW unit would be known in my opinion, and as far as I know there is no second unit being built for anybody. I must state that I am not an expert in all of the details, I don't follow this every week. But my guts are telling me the shipping container has not moved and there is nothing to indicate a second one is being built.
The whole implication behind what I am stating above is that Rossi is not "quoting 12 weeks delivery" for anybody right now.
It would be so fantastic if this were true. It's not 'free energy,' it's allegedly a new form of atomic energy. The problem is that Rossi has had every opportunity to do things right, and he always does them wrong. It's a major problem and it does not feel like it is going away. And we can't forget the fact that he has a criminal history. It's relevant to mention that in the context of the narrative about Rossi that we have seen up to this point in time.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
What really did convinced me that Andrea Rossi actually have stumbled onto something unique
are the test runs observed by the two Swedish scientists on several occasions, both in Italy
and in Sweden.
I have read their reports and I know who these guys are, and they both know beyond doubt that
the e-cat produces more heat than is possible through the mere electric input.
Their scientific methods of securing these facts are fully reliable, so if you don't believe
that these guys did their job, you only lose your own credibility.
Regarding your assertion that he has a criminal past, you have to do your homework better.
He was freed on all charges, and his enemies never got him out of business.
He says himself that this bitter experience have taught him a lot how to handle enemies,
which comes in handy in the e-cat project, where his enemies are much more sinister.
When it comes to the 1MW-unit, maybe you are right, maybe it's still in Italy, I really don't know.
I never liked the whole thing with this secret military customer.
To me it looked like the perfect way to get in control of a major part
of the e-cat production, and if the 1MW business was executed by his enemies,
this would be the perfect way to stall him.
Just imagine the scenario that Andrea Rossi is genuin but get stalled again ang again
by those who experience him as a threat to their own business, like the oil cartels.
Then guys like you would do the rest of the job to kill him off by spreading the word
that he is a scammer that never will deliver anything, thus discouraging people who
would otherwise be interested.
The fact that LENR is mushrooming in institutions all over the world today is of course
just false rumors for you, I guess.
I wouldn't react so strongly to your scepticism if it was founded on a healthy critical outlook.
But you are really not close to that mindset, even if your self image tells you so.
You are just a plain poor pessimist, focusing upon all the bad signs, giving negativity the most possible momentum
and rigoursly avoiding the good signs, or degrading them to nothing.
To me the whole thing still is completely open, and I enjoy every minute of it.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
I freely admit that I haven't read any reports by reputable scientists. If you have some links and don't mind posting them that would be appreciated.
I still am focused on the demos and the complete and total failure to provide any convincing evidence that was verified by independent third party testers. We have to assume that Rossi has some scientific background and understands these issues. It's just too big a problem for me to ignore.
Note the title of this thread: "FREE ENERGY (sic) DEVICE REACHES MARKET IN OCTOBER (2011). It's now April 2012.
Rossi is talking now about the first units rolling off of the production line in Q3 of 2013..... What is going on here?
The answer is that this is the same pattern that we have all seen before. I bet you before the end of this year, the words "Two-thousand and fourteen" will be stated by Rossi.
I simply can't stand the pattern that always happens for alleged free energy devices also happening for an alleged LENR device. Plus the factory story is not realistic...
Sometimes in life you simply have to use your background, education, research, and pure gut feel to make a decision even through you don't have all of the information.
So right now we are in a holding pattern. Some people that think like me are saying, "Fake, I refuse to accept the silly non-demo demos, Mr. Rossi you are busted!" Some people that thing like you are saying, "You can't deny the good news and just give Rossi some time!"
Ultimately, it's a waiting game.
However, if what Rossi states makes no sense in my opinion, I will state it. It's a good exercise for people to express their opinions. I have said it before, a "home E-Cat" makes no sense. Rossi needs larger industrial customers that want cheap heat. It's the most obvious way to move forward in my opinion.
Time to wait....
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 05, 2012, 06:45:46 PM
Chessnyt: You are talking the talk but you are not walking the walk. I asked you to comment on Rossi's junk demos where no conclusive data was shown that was verified by third party testers and you have ignored the question.
About the scamming issue: You don't have see it in action in public. None of us know what Rossi's private dealings are. What we do know though is about human nature. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that excited, rich, and gullible people are practically throwing money at him for systems or a piece of the action. This happens all the time and we should not be naive when it comes to human nature. It's a distinct possibility that Rossi is scamming people in private.
@MileHigh:
You can not accuse Rossi (or anyone for that matter) of scamming people concerning the E-Cat just because you think he could be doing this to people in private.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 05, 2012, 06:45:46 PM
It's a distinct possibility that Rossi is scamming people in private.
It's possible that you could be manufacturing methamphetamine in your garage and selling it to little children but I can not publicly accuse you of doing so because "possibilities" do NOT constitute proof. How would you feel if someone wrongly accused you of something without any proof?
Most people are capable of just about anything but this does not make them guilty of what they possibly could be doing. Just because you think, have a hunch, feel in your gut or believe it's possible that something MIGHT be happening STILL does NOT constitute proof and therefore should never ever be even remotely considered as evidence of illegal activity.
How about the possibility that he is innocent until proven guilty?
This is why I have not even considered commenting about Rossi's videos to you yet because it would be a complete waste of my time at this point trying to answer someone who has maliciously slandered another having no proof whatsoever with the mentality that "distinct possibilities" add up to proof that justifies such conduct. It does not, sir, nor will it ever justify defamation of character.
Sincerely,
Chess
Chess:
Sure you can comment on his junk non-demo demos if you want to. The list of backtracking and changing storylines and junk demos by Rossi suggests a pattern that anybody that has followed free energy has seen hundreds of times before. You can willfully ignore that if you want to but I won't.
If Rossi did a legitimate and credible set of demos I would be quite excited to see more evidence. But that did not happen at all.
MileHigh
As long as Rossi can keep people believing it is not real then he can make progress! As soon as it is shown to be real beyond any doubt, then his progress will quickly end.
Lumen:
QuoteAs long as Rossi can keep people believing it is not real then he can make progress! As soon as it is shown to be real beyond any doubt, then his progress will quickly end.
That's arguably the oldest cliche in the book. Let's suppose that energy production represents 5% of the economy and 95% of the economy is represented by energy consumers.
Supposing you invent a free energy machine that results in the production of electricity at 1/100th of what electricity costs today.
One of the industries that consumes more electricity than any other industry is the aluminum industry. I think I read that they consume 20% of the entire production of electrical power in the USA.
So, if you go to the multi-billion dollar aluminum industry and offer to sell them electricity at 1/100th their current cost, do you think they are going to be interested?
Let me put it another way, if you can offer 95% of the economy that consumes energy drastically reduced energy costs, and that is in competition with the 5% of the economy that actually produces energy, what do you think is a possible outcome?
The MIB fantasies are simply too simplistic and don't make sense. Any corporation would want to purchase energy at a cheaper price so they could make more profits and be more competitive in the marketplace by lowering their prices. The MIB story is a boogeyman that is mostly the creation of free energy con artists.
MileHigh
Milehigh,
You might be a bit short sighted on your view of energy so I will sum it up in a phrase.
He who controls the energy, controls the country! Nothing left out, just fact.
Lets suppose you invent something like a cell phone, better than the land line phone and soon it makes the land line phone obsolete. No problem unless you are the owner of the land line service.
Oil, over a million barrels a day at $100. a barrel in the US alone, x 365 days a year! Forget about industry, industry only exists because of the masses of people wanting some product.
So in the end, which product do you want,
The car that needs gas and must stop every 400 miles to fill with expensive fuel OR the car you drive for six months and refill with inexpensive fuel.
The lawn mower that runs all summer automatically to cut the grass and costs $10 to run, or the one you must drive yourself and costs $20. every few days.
The furnace that heats you house all winter for $10, OR the current furnace that costs $200-$300 a MONTH.
In the end you not dealing with anyone in industry or the energy sector, your making them OBSOLETE!
AND instead of several energy companies for industry to deal with for the best prices, it will all be controlled by a single person BECAUSE you know it's the american way right? I mean, everyone has the right to invent something and market it, especially in the US, where we don't need to care about what impact your invention has on anyone else, only as long as you can make money on it RIGHT! It's the business model, make everyone else obsolete while you maintain control, and next thing you know you can hold the country hostage, just like is now.
If you have a better product you don't need to sell it, they will come to you!
Lumen:
The car, lawnmower, and furnace that are talking about are just hypothetical, they don't exist. Energy works in a free market environment, just like most commodities. You can heat your house with oil, gas, electricity, wood, or solar. You can make that choice yourself, no one is stopping you.
I am not convinced by your arguments. There are many times more powerful corporations that want cheap energy compared to powerful corporations that supply energy.
Cell phones are replacing land line phones. Computers replaced typewriters, and there are no more corporations manufacturing typewriters. There are no more CRT TVs.
Change is good and you are being too simplistic. The real problem is demonstrating that you have a true functioning way of producing energy. It's almost a no-brainer. You have a device that produces heat energy at reduced cost? Fine, give me a demo that heats water, cold-water-in, hot-water-out. I can measure the temperature difference between the input and output, I can measure the rate of flow of the water, and I know the specific heat of water. With that information I can calculate the energy output with a hand-held calculator and it will take me 20 seconds. Show me that heat producing system independently verified by outside third-party testers and I will be very interested. Show me the same test on multiple occasions verified by a series of different third party testers and I will be extremely interested. Rossi gets a FAIL. He hasn't done that. So we are left with a waiting game.
MileHigh
MileHigh
I understand your point of view that there is no proof from Rossi, but I just look at it like this, Cold fusion in general is real and has been proven to exist, Hot fusion is real and has been proven to exist. Hot fusion has been in the works for over 50 years and no one has ever claimed to be going into production building a useful hot fusion reactor. Cold fusion is new and already there are a few companies claiming to be building a useful cold fusion reactor to market.
I put my name on the list early on because I knew that if this works it will soon catch on quickly and with production of a million a year, the waiting list will be several years long even before it is fully verified as working. So while you wait for proof of the magic, I am standing in line already.
I have read all the info I could find, I have weighed the skeptics, I have weighed the merits, and because it costs me nothing to stand in line I'm there.
You can continue to wait for proof, but you can bet when the proof comes out your time to get in line will be past. Everyone makes choices based on what they know and if you read things you will know also. Transmutation of elements thought to be impossible? Something I read several years ago even before the E-Cat. You know that old LPS yard light you have running and may have replaced the bulb in a few times? Well it was discovered that after those things ran for several years, they have found small traces of gold in them that was never there when they were new!
The magic is there and I'll report back to you on how well it works. :)
Lumen,
your point of view is shared by many of us and expresses well the logic behind our choice to give Andrea Rossi our trust.
There are actually some fully valid scientific test runs performed by several independent particle physiscists, which I hope
will give our friend MileHigh some increase in his halting optimism.
MileHigh,
I have in addition to the links from the Swedish magazine Ny Teknik (English version)
added three reports as pdf-files below for you to read and evaluate.
Since all of them emphazises the anomalous heat production observed for hours in self sustain mode,
which in itself is enough proof that something strange is happening here, I consider the reports as highly
interesting, but these evident signs of unexplained heat production wasn't all that puzzled the scientists,
there was also reported sharp increases in heat production a couple of hours efter unplugging all power sources.
I doubt that your scrutiny will exceed these particle physiscists in rigorusness and proffessional competence,
but I am unfortunately still quite sure that your sceptical mindset wont let you move over to us that easy.
But to be expressing criticism the way you do is absolutely welcome, and is expressing intelligens in contrast
to those who seem to have only one mission on this thread and that is to discredit Andrea Rossi unconditionally.
Below are links to articles of interest. (contains various links to test reports)
Here´s for example an excert from the third link below by Jed Rothwell, who has followed the area LENR for many years :
“The test produced irrefutable proof of anomalous energy production, in several different ways.
After input power was turned off, not only did it remain hot for 4 hours, it twice sharply increased in temperature.
This is first-principle proof that large amounts of energy were being generated inside the reactor.â€
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece (http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece)
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3108242.ece (http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3108242.ece)
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3295411.ece (http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3295411.ece)
Gwandau
I have added the spread sheet relating to the Test of the E-cat October 6 2011.
It is attached as a pdf, since the original xlsx-file was not allowed here.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 06, 2012, 01:05:10 PM
The car, lawnmower, and furnace that are talking about are just hypothetical, they don't exist.
@MileHigh:
The scam you accuse Andrea Rossi of running is completely hypothetical too so why is it okay for you to use hypotheticals without ANY proof whatsoever and others are held to a higher standard?
Chess
@Everyone:
Here are some additional quotes from the interview Rossi granted to Oilprice.com on March 29, 2012:
Oilprice.com: As of yet you have not let anyone study the intricate mechanisms inside of your machine stating the fact that the patents have still not been approved. This lack of transparency has resulted in a great deal of criticism. Once you have received the patent will you reveal more detailed information on the E-Cat?
Andrea Rossi: Yes
Oilprice.com: It almost seems as if you’re downplaying the role that LENR could play in providing cheap abundant energy for the world, by only developing relatively small units. Do you not believe that your LENR machine could truly solve a lot of the world’s energy problems? Do you plan to build much larger units of 10s-100s of megawatts, or is that not possible?
Andrea Rossi: We are already developing 1 MW plants, and it will be easy to link these plants together to make larger power plants. Due to the compact scale, and efficient energy production process, an E-Cat power plant will be much smaller than its fossil fuel or nuclear equivalent.
Oilprice.com: You mentioned linking 1MW plants together to make larger power plants. How would this work? What would the cost be?
Andrea Rossi: The 1MW units can be assembled at a reduced size of 10ft x 8ft x 8ft, and can then be stacked in series or parallel to produce the necessary power. It will cost 1,000 $/KW.
Oilprice.com: Have there been any recent developments you are able to share with us?
Andrea Rossi: We are very close to completing a 1MW plant in the US which will soon be opened to the public.
Oilprice.com: How many 1 MW plants have you currently made and sold?
Andrea Rossi: One 1 MW plant has been made and 13 are under construction. We would like to consolidate the first 14 before expanding. The oak must grow proportionally to the roots, otherwise hostile winds will sweep everything away.
Oilprice.com: Where did you receive the initial financing from to test and develop the E-Cat?
Andrea Rossi: I financed the development myself.
Enjoy ;D
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on April 07, 2012, 12:24:48 AM
@Everyone:
Here are some additional quotes from the interview Rossi granted to Oilprice.com on March 29, 2012:
Oilprice.com: As of yet you have not let anyone study the intricate mechanisms inside of your machine stating the fact that the patents have still not been approved. This lack of transparency has resulted in a great deal of criticism. Once you have received the patent will you reveal more detailed information on the E-Cat?
Andrea Rossi: Yes
Oilprice.com: It almost seems as if you’re downplaying the role that LENR could play in providing cheap abundant energy for the world, by only developing relatively small units. Do you not believe that your LENR machine could truly solve a lot of the world’s energy problems? Do you plan to build much larger units of 10s-100s of megawatts, or is that not possible?
Andrea Rossi: We are already developing 1 MW plants, and it will be easy to link these plants together to make larger power plants. Due to the compact scale, and efficient energy production process, an E-Cat power plant will be much smaller than its fossil fuel or nuclear equivalent.
Oilprice.com: You mentioned linking 1MW plants together to make larger power plants. How would this work? What would the cost be?
Andrea Rossi: The 1MW units can be assembled at a reduced size of 10ft x 8ft x 8ft, and can then be stacked in series or parallel to produce the necessary power. It will cost 1,000 $/KW.
Oilprice.com: Have there been any recent developments you are able to share with us?
Andrea Rossi: We are very close to completing a 1MW plant in the US which will soon be opened to the public.
Oilprice.com: How many 1 MW plants have you currently made and sold?
Andrea Rossi: One 1 MW plant has been made and 13 are under construction. We would like to consolidate the first 14 before expanding. The oak must grow proportionally to the roots, otherwise hostile winds will sweep everything away.
Oilprice.com: Where did you receive the initial financing from to test and develop the E-Cat?
Andrea Rossi: I financed the development myself.
Enjoy ;D
Chess
Hi Chess,
Many thanks for the update. It's getting better and better. A new plant - soon to be opened? It's all good. Really really good. And I love Rossi's analogy to the 'old oak' needing the support of good rooting. I also love the idea that we can series those generators to get whatever output required. It'll be interesting if he EVER manages to keep pace with market demand once he gets going. I think we're looking to the certain demise of nuclear power plants. There is NOTHING more welcome than that - that I know of.
Kindest regards, and thanks also to Gwandau too for his excellent and extremely patient and persuasive posts.
Rosemary
Andrea Rossi: We are very close to completing a 1MW plant in the US which will soon be opened to the public.
I found the interview very poor in details, would anyone imagine that a 1MWe cold fusion plant in close to completion in the US without knowing the location, especially with no patent and no certification ready.
Same for the 1 Mwe unit stucked in an harbor in Italy.
So please one of you give me location of the US plant and location of the Italian harbor.
If such a thing was true then all the US and Italian medias would be around waiting to see the beast and delay in chipping the beast would have made the breaking news of the day in Italian channel. We are talking about something that is going to change the world.Not trusting Rossi for the moment.
Septical about the individual, not about LENR but still searching something relevant from official universities websites.
(cant remove the bold!)
Quote from: parisd on April 07, 2012, 05:05:41 AM
Andrea Rossi: We are very close to completing a 1MW plant in the US which will soon be opened to the public.
I found the interview very poor in details, would anyone imagine that a 1MWe cold fusion plant in close to completion in the US without knowing the location, especially with no patent and no certification ready.
Same for the 1 Mwe unit stucked in an harbor in Italy.
So please one of you give me location of the US plant and location of the Italian harbor.
If such a thing was true then all the US and Italian medias would be around waiting to see the beast and delay in chipping the beast would have made the breaking news of the day in Italian channel. We are talking about something that is going to change the world.Not trusting Rossi for the moment.
Septical about the individual, not about LENR but still searching something relevant from official universities websites.
(cant remove the bold!)
@parisd:
The 1MW plant under construction and close to completion in the United States is for real. It's location is being kept a secret for VERY GOOD reasons. If you can not figure out or imagine why this is, then you are being very naive.
If you are waiting for someone to convince you that all is well and that Rossi, along with his technology, is for real, you will be very disappointed because the main purpose of this thread is to provide news updates (which is why I started this thread in the news section) to those who already know that a revolution has begun. Please reference reply number 715 of this thread as member Iwh has done an excellent job in explaining this venue very nicely already.
The only thing I would like to add to what Iwh stated in his posting (reply #715) is that the current scientific theories do not yet address the phenomenon that is taking place inside the core of Rossi's reactor so any arguments related to this "reaction" are essentially baseless until the scientific community as a whole catches up.
Regards,
Chess
P.S. To remove the BOLD, simply highlight the text that is bold and click bold and it will revert back to plain text.
Rossi lyier! 8)
Quote from: Maciej41 on April 07, 2012, 05:14:53 PM
Rossi lyier! 8)
Wow, this GARY WRONG guy must have a lot invested someplace that is sure to be destroyed by the ecat. What a low life loo0ooo00ooser he is. I hope he loses it all.
What a low life pile of dung scum he is, trying to get someone else to do his dirty work at tax payer expense. I would suggest some other things but I'm sure he hasn't any to cut off.
Ok, Im done.
I wonder that his testimony is known for a month, all others are so dumb or are working together for him? ;D
Quote from: lumen on April 07, 2012, 06:18:14 PM
Wow, this GARY WRONG guy must have a lot invested someplace that is sure to be destroyed by the ecat. What a low life loo0ooo00ooser he is. I hope he loses it all.
What a low life pile of dung scum he is, trying to get someone else to do his dirty work at tax payer expense. I would suggest some other things but I'm sure he hasn't any to cut off.
Ok, Im done.
I think it is very clear that this is not just a normal complaint from an average citizen. He has put a LOT of work into this complaint and if he were to be successful, he could cause problems for Rossi but Rossi is not in jail or fined as a result. It was a professional effort to accomplish this though ;D
And then there is the poster of the PDF file who is a "newbie" (his first post) so it comes from someone trying to hide their real identity (normal username) :o Notice they can't even spell liar correctly so it's not very hard to determine the source ;D ;D ;D
It's not a lawsuit or successful complaint. Try just a little harder next time to uproot the tree 8)
This is just another UNsuccessful smear tactic that didn't work ;)
Regards,
Chess
Rossi explained clearly that his device is nothing of nuclear type, he has no production plant in America and of this he can not be accused of anything.
California just put their big San Onofre nuclear power plant on indefinite shutdown status. That's what provides power to
roughly 5 million people (1.4 million homes) in Los Angeles. Maybe Rossi needs to get hold of Gerry Brown (Governor) to see if they can help each other out. Thanks for all the updates Chess.
Quote from: Maciej41 on April 07, 2012, 07:59:06 PM
Rossi explained clearly that his device is nothing of nuclear type, he has no production plant in America and of this he can not be accused of anything.
Exactly and this is old news. He is waiting for the certification to produce the home units and this is in the public record. Yes, he has stated publicly that he intends to manufacture and distribute E-Cats here in the U.S. but only AFTER proper certifications have been granted.
The reactor is the last part that will be made as this is the part that needs the special certifications. He would not make anything that he does not have the certifications for which is a very smart move. The professional "interests" have jumped the gun and made themselves look not only foolish, but obvious of their intentions. But then look how much money is at stake. Were not talking about billions of dollars here but trillions of dollars in lost revenue and worthless energy harvesting equipment (e.g. offshore and onshore drilling rigs and platforms)
Chess
All Your explanation are always the same, no exact datas, no show device for anybody eager to prove it.
It is in manner as politicians do.
Sleep well. :-*
Quote from: Maciej41 on April 07, 2012, 08:20:04 PM
All Your explanation are always the same, no exact datas, no show device for anybody eager to prove it.
It is in manner as politicians do.
Sleep well. :-*
The truth is on my side as a lie can only survive in the absence of it just as darkness can only prevail in the absence of light. Trying to slant the truth is always a risky endeavor that the facts will always dispel.
Don't worry. You still have time to sell your Chevron stocks before the media has no choice but mention this revolutionary new energy reality.
I know what you're trying to do here and you are outgunned my friend. You are no match for the truth. Better luck next time 8)
Chess
Nearly the same speaches as this here: http://nspap.livejournal.com/39398.html
Stop thinking about anything as only to collect food and wood.
In a few months this will be most important thing for all proud yet Americans.
Bread and butter will be for most a dream.l only.
www.apgp.salon24.pl
I read through the document and I was pretty familiar with the material. What it clearly does is catch Rossi in a big lie. He makes many claims about a factory in the USA and when he is visited by a person from the Department of Radiological Health in Miami he then says that there is no factory in the USA.
This is an absolute fact, Rossi's own words. I can't understand how you guys that are supporters can simply brush this off. The key guy was caught in a huge lie. If he can lie about something as big as a factory that is supposed to be stress testing 300 E-Cats then he can lie about anything. He is clearly tarnished in that report by his own words, not by anybody else's words.
Plus there were references to concerns about radiation issues in Italy and when he visited by a federal agent in Florida he claims there is no radiation. That could bite him in the ass in the long run. You don't lie to the Feds.
From experience, I am not really surprised how dismissive some of you are about this stuff.
I am willing to bet you there are not another 13 one-megawatt plants being built either. I have no facts one way or the other, it's just my gut feel.
QuoteCalifornia just put their big San Onofre nuclear power plant on indefinite shutdown status. That's what provides power to
roughly 5 million people (1.4 million homes) in Los Angeles. Maybe Rossi needs to get hold of Gerry Brown (Governor) to see if they can help each other out.
Even if Rossi is legitimate, we are a long way off from a seeing a major power plant being built using this technology. It would sure be nice if it all was true.
Right now my best guess is that the only business footprint that Rossi has in Florida is the condo that he lives in. That means that the "American operation" is a room with a desk, a computer, some filing cabinets, and a fax machine.
MileHigh
Gwandau:
Thanks for the links and the documents. I will try to look at them.
Chess:
QuoteThe scam you accuse Andrea Rossi of running is completely hypothetical too so why is it okay for you to use hypotheticals without ANY proof whatsoever and others are held to a higher standard?
I suppose because I find it really distasteful to see a person or corporation commit fraud and steal money from good people. You notice that sentence is generic, I am not talking about any specific person. If you have followed the story of free energy you will know that there are scammers that have been convicted and been sent to jail. Then there are people that have followings that are simply pedaling snake oil.
In that context and in the spirit of healthy debate we should all be able to express our opinions. I don't have absolute proof that Rossi is a scammer, but by the same token I don't have any independently verified third-party proof that he has what he claims he has. At the same time I am fully aware, as all of you should be aware, that if Rossi wanted to facilitate independent third-party testing he has had ample opportunity to do so but he hasn't. That makes me highly suspicions, just like the lying about a factory in Florida makes me highly suspicious.
If you are going to go public with the "next big thing" you are going to be subject to scrutiny. It's actually healthy and good to let this happen. If the guy is real then that fact will percolate to the top.
MileHigh
It's interesting how people put words in Rossi's mouth that he never said. So let me correct the "no plant in the US lie" for those who were not listening!
Rossi said "there is CURRENTLY yes that's CURRENTLY no PRODUCTION yes that's PRODUCTION in the US. He did not say there was no plant being built, He did not say they are not running samples for testing, He did not say! what he said was CURRENTLY all production is overseas.
Very simple for those who wish to believe Rossi is a fraud (and cannot read) to interpret to something negative.
Rossi picks his words carefully and you can see why he must.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 07, 2012, 09:22:00 PM
Gwandau:
Thanks for the links and the documents. I will try to look at them.
I suppose because I find it really distasteful to see a person or corporation commit fraud and steal money from good people. You notice that sentence is generic, I am not talking about any specific person. If you have followed the story of free energy you will know that there are scammers that have been convicted and been sent to jail. Then there are people that have followings that are simply pedaling snake oil.
MileHigh
I suppose you are then at this very moment looking for someone to report those HOT FUSION people to over at CERN. They have STOLEN hundreds of millions from several countries and continue to steal without end knowing very well that hot fusion can NEVER work. They cannot even solve the first step of more energy out than in and even if they do (in another ten years of course) that is only ONE hurdle. The second hurdle of how to contain the high speed neutrons has been ignored because everyone knows there is no solution.
So go for it MileHigh, get them thieves! They are stealing money from us good people!
But this is only same change, such is change as between presidents of U.S. after which all goes same path, or ruling parties in Poland, dumb change thieves and vice versa, and so on.
And dumb catholics vote for them too.
The same thing is with this device:
www.overunity.com/10213/drj200-100-cnf-reactor-for-home-use/75/
Even if it is real, 110% or 170% effectivity compared to 85% as for simple electric heater is not much worth.
Once poorer it is when we compare price for heater 25 EUR to 14.000 EUR price for this device.
Even if this can heat some 3-5.500 sqm, even 4x cheaper over gas.
http://nspap.livejournal.com/35567.html
Quote from: Maciej41 on April 07, 2012, 05:14:53 PM
Rossi lyier! 8)
Yes, Rossi building secretly a 1 MW in the US without having his patent in hand and without license nor certification, if he was really building a secret unit in the US (why the US ?) he would not be saying that during any internet interview he would be working VERY secretly probably with the US army or eventually NASA and nobody on the net would know about it.
So Rossi is building 13 secret units and we will not know their location nor if they produce hot water, we just have to trust him blindly through internet interviews or rumors. May be all this is real or may be one day after he build up a list of let say 10 000 custumers for the 10Kw unit he will ask a 100$ advance fee from each of them to prepare licensing documentation or just to buy the components like do our dentists, and he will make his first million.
I still hope Cold fusion (and may be Rossi himself) is genuine, some universities have seen unexplained milliwatts of energy and the NASA on his side declared it useless (this is what I found on their website).
Please bring us relevant and verified information on this thread not ridiculous interviews unverifiable like the oilprice one. there should be somewhere after so many months of Rossi media presence.
Quote from: parisd on April 08, 2012, 05:09:39 AM
Yes, Rossi building secretly a 1 MW in the US without having his patent in hand and without license nor certification, if he was really building a secret unit in the US (why the US ?) he would not be saying that during any internet interview he would be working VERY secretly probably with the US army or eventually NASA and nobody on the net would know about it.
So Rossi is building 13 secret units and we will not know their location nor if they produce hot water, we just have to trust him blindly through internet interviews or rumors. May be all this is real or may be one day after he build up a list of let say 10 000 custumers for the 10Kw unit he will ask a 100$ advance fee from each of them to prepare licensing documentation or just to buy the components like do our dentists, and he will make his first million.
I still hope Cold fusion (and may be Rossi himself) is genuine, some universities have seen unexplained milliwatts of energy and the NASA on his side declared it useless (this is what I found on their website).
Please bring us relevant and verified information on this thread not ridiculous interviews unverifiable like the oilprice one. there should be somewhere after so many months of Rossi media presence.
Absolutely! Yes Rossi can build ANYTHING HE WANTS in the US without a Patent, without Certification AND without telling anyone! THEN he can ship the parts overseas to have them assembled and even sold!
No one cares except for a few jealous people who think they should have some rights to his ideas.
If you think Rossi is going to take any money from anyone without a product, I'm sure you are mistaken. This would surly be a death sentence to his product and likely prison for him. Do you really think he would even try that?
The efficiency issue is another problem people have in comprehension, Rossi states a COP > 6, but that is not a set value. The actual COP is dependent on the use and anyone who understands Rossi's claim. In an application where the demand for heat never stopped, a COP > 1000 would be likely.
Used in a typical hot water heater of 50 gallons where the unit must turn off every few hours is where you would get a COP >6 or less.
So did the remark for NASA that "cold fusion is useless" come before or after the remark from NASA that "cold fusion is the new future energy source"?
If there is cold fusion i.e heat produced by a fusion reaction at low temperature there is no need to supply heat to maintain it (except during start-up), so not relevant to talk about COP.
My NASA search was done 5 days ago, also search about MIT found nothing.
In www.sciencedaily.com my seach using LENR or Rossi gave nothing despite every news about science come to that site hour after hour from all over the world.
Whas enthusiastic about cold fusion 1 month ago when I arrived in this forum and did not even know cold fusion was back, now am septical due to lack of rigor in all the recent posts I read in this thread, not going to read old posts nor to post anymore, cant get any relevant information today in this thread. Will search information in other places. Agree with you guys that there is something real about cold fusion, not trusting this character of Rossi, he does nothing to be trustable. Good continuation, dont absorb blindly internet interviews or rumors, be critical, don't accept secrecy as justification, anything secret should not be mentioned in any interview unless he wants to keep his followers waiting. I hope to be totally wrong about Rossi.
"If there is cold fusion i.e heat produced by a fusion reaction at low temperature
there is no need to supply heat to maintain it (except during start-up), so not
relevant to talk about COP."
It is not so.
Real cold fusion goes without heat build up.
But this is possible in military devices, such as was in fall of Schauberger.
They can also Megatons of TNT to yield, but this depends on purpose only.
Normal work temperature for cold fusion is 10.000.000 degree, but this all depends on scale of process only.
Reactors built for civilian purposes don't have such unlimited range between "0" and "10 mlns" so this have COP 1 to 5 only.
Here You see please:
-civilian category: http://nspap.livejournal.com/25641.html
which can without special conditions to be used,
and
-national (or peaceful as they call it for masking the real purpose).
http://nspap.livejournal.com/25598.html
http://nspap.livejournal.com/16631.html
I know that Russians-Potapov, which were earlier than polish devices, have this second category working too, but for military strategic reasons don't say a world against.
And speaches about CNF going on other things as water a completely nonsence are.
The main remark for CNF is real this, that fuel don't deteriorates, even slightly.
It rebuilts (renews) from itself, from its own universe which lays behind it, beyond our sence and possibility to understand it.
(Out of bomb purpose of course).
Maybe of this, the Germans called his first plane workung upon it nearly 100 years ago, nothing other as: "Jenseits Flugmaschine".
I think that Harti as of German origin could better decipher this name. >:(
I advise You all to search more for work of Victor Schauberger and to try to understand his thoughs about Nature.
I had done it personally and i'm very impressed about.
It is really worth to waste weeks on it.
Try by yourself. 8)
@parisd:
You want to be rich, but you're not willing to work. "Get up off of that thing" and dig if you want to strike gold. The world is NOT going to just hand you a Lear jet and a Mercedes while you wait comfortably by the pool. This thread does not come with room service. If you don't want to read back through the thread for MIT links, NASA quotes and video, then I can not help you.
Quote from: parisd on April 08, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
...be critical, don't accept secrecy as justification, anything secret should not be mentioned in any interview unless he wants to keep his followers waiting. I hope to be totally wrong about Rossi.
Protecting a patent before it is granted is a very common practice and therefore does not constitute fraud.
Even Pepsi keeps their secret recipe for their soft drink locked up in a safe despite the fact that they have already been granted a patent for their soft drink many decades ago.
Oilprice.com: As of yet you have not let anyone study the intricate mechanisms inside of your machine stating the fact that the patents have still not been approved. This lack of transparency has resulted in a great deal of criticism. Once you have received the patent will you reveal more detailed information on the E-Cat?
Andrea Rossi: Yes At least Rossi (unlike Pepsi) is willing to give more details of his invention AFTER his patent(s) have been granted.
Regards,
Chess
Lumen:
QuoteIt's interesting how people put words in Rossi's mouth that he never said. So let me correct the "no plant in the US lie" for those who were not listening!
Rossi said "there is CURRENTLY yes that's CURRENTLY no PRODUCTION yes that's PRODUCTION in the US. He did not say there was no plant being built, He did not say they are not running samples for testing, He did not say! what he said was CURRENTLY all production is overseas.
Very simple for those who wish to believe Rossi is a fraud (and cannot read) to interpret to something negative.
Rossi picks his words carefully and you can see why he must.
In modern parlance, this is pure "fanboy" talk. You want to believe that Rossi can do no wrong and you will look for every possible angle to keep him "pure."
From what I recall from reading that attachment Rossi claimed that there there were 300 functioning units undergoing stress testing in the alleged American production facility. Then he meets an agent of Bureau of Radiological Heath that wants to check out the factory for radiation levels, and he says there is no factory. So I completely disagree with you. The Federal agent had a perfectly legitimate reason to go check out the factory, if it actually existed. Rossi simply lying and manipulative, and he is manipulating you.
I checked the report, the line is "Currently all production, distribution, and use of these devices is overseas." Stress testing 300 units is definitely "using" them. It stinks. You should use your instincts and common sense and not try to "massage" the truth.
My assumption right now in early April 2012 is that there is nothing in Florida except for Rossi's condo, which is where he lives. There is no business address in Florida for any of his companies.
QuoteI suppose you are then at this very moment looking for someone to report those HOT FUSION people to over at CERN. They have STOLEN hundreds of millions from several countries and continue to steal without end knowing very well that hot fusion can NEVER work. They cannot even solve the first step of more energy out than in and even if they do (in another ten years of course) that is only ONE hurdle. The second hurdle of how to contain the high speed neutrons has been ignored because everyone knows there is no solution.
So go for it MileHigh, get them thieves! They are stealing money from us good people!
Actually I would qualify this as legitimate government-sponsored research. I would guess that they produce massive volumes of data per year and every year they have to request funding for their budget. You talk is just sour grapes talk. They may fail, it's a real possibility. But certainly the project is real and the people are real. They haven't stolen anything, it's all by the book.
A little reminder for you about Pons and Fleishman. After 1989, for about the next 10 years they were courted by various countries. I think they ended up in Japan where they were provided with the best labs with the best state-of-the-art equipment. They ended up producing nothing. Somehow that fact is overlooked and LENR fans talk about the fact that we are "23 years late" in getting this technology to market, bla bla bla.
Time will tell if Rossi delivers but in my opinion it's not looking good at all.
MileHigh
I have found recently this in other topic:
"News / Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« on: October 22, 2011, 03:29:15 AM »
Rather as to waste time for all this silness, i advise all US citizens to write to Los
Alamos to obtain copy of Potapov's VHG's test.
You have only right to do it after: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Freedom_of_Information_Act_(United_States )
Have a time with it, and please don't forget to show us."
What i have searched in net, the fully succesfull cold fusion devices of Potapov (which are sold by hundreds in Russia for >15 years) were proved in Los Alamos and later awarded through B. Clinton.
Why for Gods sake, nobody written yet to obtain all free copy of this sensational research?
I think after all this reading, as well as here in Poland, nobody really wants change and water engines first.
@Everyone:
Here are some additional quotes from the interview Rossi granted to Oilprice.com on March 29, 2012:
Oilprice.com: Complete transition to nuclear fusion would likely take decades to accomplish. High costs for fossil fuels would be a major incentive, but simply re-provisioning 7 or 8 billion people would be a major job. Once you have the patents in place what are your goals for manufacturing and distribution?
Andrea Rossi: Rome wasn’t built in a day. I try to follow the same philosophy, and show the same patience. The development will progress exponentially along the way to levels that we can’t imagine today, but right now we focusing on building out a production line capable of producing 1 million E-Cats per year.
Oilprice.com: Do you think your past conviction in relation to Petroldragon, has hindered the acceptance of your E-Cat machine? Even though you were acquitted of all charges, do you think people are still expecting you to be discovered as a fraud?
Andrea Rossi: I have not actually had time to think about this. For me it is irrelevant, all that counts is my work, and that is what I will be judged upon.
Oilprice.com: With so many scientists writing off LENR as impossible, what made you continue to study it? Why did you think they were wrong?
Andrea Rossi: I don’t listen to anyone who tells me that I should stop. I have no time.
Oilprice.com: Do you believe the E-cat is the answer to the impending energy crisis?
Andrea Rossi: Yes, I believe it will help. We are still very far away from powering transportation. It will be more than 20 years before we are ready to power transportation, but with the help of God nothing is impossible to working men.
Oilprice.com: What is your goal with the E-Cat machine? Are you hoping to change the world with a new, almost limitless energy source, or is your primary motivation financial?
Andrea Rossi: My goal is to develop a new source of very cheap, clean energy; it is the meaning of my life.
Enjoy ;D
Chess
Quote from: e2matrix on April 07, 2012, 08:11:12 PM
California just put their big San Onofre nuclear power plant on indefinite shutdown status. That's what provides power to
roughly 5 million people (1.4 million homes) in Los Angeles. Maybe Rossi needs to get hold of Gerry Brown (Governor) to see if they can help each other out. Thanks for all the updates Chess.
As a resident of California, I would love to see the San Onofre nuclear power plant retrofitted with Rossi's industrial version of the E-Cat technology. Conventional nuclear reactors are very unsafe and potential catastrophes just waiting to happen (citing Japan's nuclear disaster).
You are welcome for the updates. It's for people like you who read and or participate in this revolutionary new energy source movement that I enjoy relaying the latest information.
Best Regards,
Chess
Quote from: MileHigh on April 08, 2012, 02:31:56 PM
From what I recall from reading that attachment Rossi claimed that there there were 300 functioning units undergoing stress testing in the alleged American production facility. Then he meets an agent of Bureau of Radiological Heath that wants to check out the factory for radiation levels, and he says there is no factory. So I completely disagree with you. The Federal agent had a perfectly legitimate reason to go check out the factory, if it actually existed. Rossi simply lying and manipulative, and he is manipulating you.
I checked the report, the line is "Currently all production, distribution, and use of these devices is overseas." Stress testing 300 units is definitely "using" them. It stinks. You should use your instincts and common sense and not try to "massage" the truth.
My assumption right now in early April 2012 is that there is nothing in Florida except for Rossi's condo, which is where he lives. There is no business address in Florida for any of his companies.
Actually I would qualify this as legitimate government-sponsored research. I would guess that they produce massive volumes of data per year and every year they have to request funding for their budget. You talk is just sour grapes talk. They may fail, it's a real possibility. But certainly the project is real and the people are real. They haven't stolen anything, it's all by the book.
A little reminder for you about Pons and Fleishman. After 1989, for about the next 10 years they were courted by various countries. I think they ended up in Japan where they were provided with the best labs with the best state-of-the-art equipment. They ended up producing nothing. Somehow that fact is overlooked and LENR fans talk about the fact that we are "23 years late" in getting this technology to market, bla bla bla.
Time will tell if Rossi delivers but in my opinion it's not looking good at all.
MileHigh
Gee, I just read the reply again and you are still wrong! The reply still has not changed, Hmmmm I wonder where you are reading this?
Stress testing is use? Well the agent should have ask where he was doing the stress testing then right? I'm sure Rossi could have divulged all the information that was never ask about, but why would he?
You still put words in his mouth that he never said, go back and read it again! When asked about the factory he said ________ (please fill in the blank)
You still think Hot fusion can work? It's not feasible and never CAN be and they know it but still suck up tax dollars to fill their bellies after 50 years of failure on only the FIRST step of getting it to work and the second step is HARDER to get to work because it's impossible!
But that's OK with you? and Rossi has taken $0.00 from anyone and he's the fraud? :0
That's a brave fight you're putting up there Lumen. Not sure that it's worth it because you're not about to convince MileHigh about anything at all. He's reached an age and stage - that his mind is losing its flexibility. But your points are good.
MileHigh - I think you're now grossly misrepresenting the history of poor Fleischmann and Pons. Both scientists were utterly disgraced. Their science was branded 'pathological' and they found themselves out of work - in short order. Then - to boot - the patent laws were amended to ensure that NO-ONE ever again referenced Cold Fusion. If that doesn't strike you as rather extreme - then nothing will. Added to which the 'emissions' - for once and for all - ARE NOT TOXIC. At best they're 'BETA EMISSIONS'. This has been widely referenced by EXPERTS. Then. Bear in mind that the nature of the scientist is 'inquisitive'. By and large there was enough interest in this for at least some chemists to check that rather obvious 'debunk' for it's validity. They found that it was bogus. They then reapplied their terminologies to call in Low Energy Nuclear Reactions. And right now there are endorsements of this from NOBEL LAUREATES - and highly esteemed academics. That the public and the most of the academics have not caught up is TYPICAL. It took some many years for our nuclear bombs and the principles of fission to reach mainstream. And they then had to RETROSPECTIVELY adjust their Thermodynamic Laws to accommodate all that energy. So. All we're looking at here is your rather 'slow' uptake on new science. You need to try and invigorate that mind of yours. It's possibly getting a bit old. I know something about this.
Regards
Rosemary
Quote from: Maciej41 on April 09, 2012, 05:10:09 AM
Please Rose, see this:
"Re: I see a NUCLEAR TEST coming...
« Reply #2523 on: Today at 10:27:03 AM »
Thanks for link, it is very interesting.
But it is very pity that for yesterday planned ful scale cold nuclear test (0.1 kT) in
Poland http://nspap.livejournal.com/39568.html (http://nspap.livejournal.com/39568.html) was abandoned.
Do You think Jed Rothwell should be near by when this occurs?"
Do You Rose?
(Although it will be well heard in Capetown too). 8)
Chess - I didn't open it but that link leads to a 'warning' about 'adult content'. My understanding is that when this warning comes up then it references pornography. Is that right? In which case I wonder if you could check up on this and then report it to Stefan. I'm not sure that he wants his forum polluted - as it will most certainly discourage investment from his advertisers.
I've posted the entire post so that MacieJ41 can't retrospectively delete anything. If I'm wrong - and if there is a legitimate reference there - then let me know and I'll apologise.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on April 09, 2012, 05:17:52 AM
Chess - I didn't open it but that link leads to a 'warning' about 'adult content'. My understanding is that when this warning comes up then it references pornography. Is that right? In which case I wonder if you could check up on this and then report it to Stefan. I'm not sure that he wants his forum polluted - as it will most certainly discourage investment from his advertisers.
I've posted the entire post so that MacieJ41 can't retrospectively delete anything. If I'm wrong - and if there is a legitimate reference there - then let me know and I'll apologise.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
"The content that you are about to view
could contain adult concepts which may not be suitable for minors. To continue, you must confirm that you are at least 14 years of age. "
Why would you automaticly assume this is pornography? on an over unity forum. "adult concepts" a concept is just that, a concept, no images, no videos. it even tells you in black and white that there is no images, just concepts.
con·cept/ˈkänseptNoun:An abstract idea; a general notion.
I am a male and have seen my fair share of pornograhy.. but i have NEVER see a "abstract idea" section, that would be new.
Also, the age limit should of given it away that it had nothing to do with pornography I don't know any country that allows 14 year olds to legally view pornography
Quote from: Maciej41 on April 09, 2012, 05:10:09 AM
Please Rose, see this:
"Re: I see a NUCLEAR TEST coming...
« Reply #2523 on: Today at 10:27:03 AM »
Thanks for link, it is very interesting.
But it is very pity that for yesterday planned ful scale cold nuclear test (0.1 kT) in
Poland http://nspap.livejournal.com/39568.html (http://nspap.livejournal.com/39568.html) was abandoned.
Do You think Jed Rothwell should be near by when this occurs?"
Do You Rose?
(Although it will be well heard in Capetown too). 8)
Maciej41:
Just relax and enjoy life, It's already too short we don't need to look for ways to make it shorter!
The best thing might be to find a way to extend one's life for thousands of years and simply wait for everyone else to die off!
Lumen and Rosemary:
My perception is that Rossi in emails in 2010, 2011, possibly early 2012 was bluffing that he had a factory in Florida. This a common thing for unethical people to do in business. Then when the federal investigator spoke to him in Florida he spoke the truth because he had no choice. So I don't buy your spin doctoring, I am giving you my impression of what transpired, and this is backed up by Rossi's email and the federal reports.
For Fleischmann and Pons, here are two quotes from Wikipedia:
QuoteBetween 1992 and 1997, Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_International_Trade_and_Industry) sponsored a "New Hydrogen Energy (NHE)" program of US$20 million to research cold fusion.[68] Announcing the end of the program in 1997, the director and one-time proponent of cold fusion research Hideo Ikegami stated "We couldn't achieve what was first claimed in terms of cold fusion. (...) We can't find any reason to propose more money for the coming year or for the future."
QuoteIn 1 January 1991, Pons left his tenure, and both he and Fleischmann quietly left the United States.[62][63] In 1992 they resumed research with Toyota Motor Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Corporation)'s IMRA lab in France.[62] Fleischmann left for England in 1995, and the contract with Pons was not renewed in 1998 after spending $40 million with no tangible results.[64] The IMRA laboratory was closed in 1998 after spending £12 million on cold fusion work.
So the point that I am making is that they both spent years on this project and got no results and overall hundreds of millions of dollars has been spent on this type of research over the past 23 years.
So maybe Rossi has built a better mousetrap, who knows. But right now as we speak he looks, walks, and talks like a manipulative con artist that's got nothing. This is notwithstanding all of the news and buzz LENR has right now.
For a first step, let's see if he shows anything that is independently verified before the end of the year. Stop cutting him so much slack and demand that he prove his proposition. Go against the grain and stop being fanboys and fangirls and demand concrete evidence.
MileHigh
hello. ..
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Quote from: MileHigh on April 09, 2012, 07:07:43 PM
Go against the grain and stop being fanboys and fangirls...
You should be saving this speech for the mainstream news media whose boycott of this story
(for the most part an eclipse of the majority) is almost deafening!!!
Quote from: MileHigh on April 09, 2012, 07:07:43 PM
For Fleischmann and Pons, here are two quotes from Wikipedia:
"Between 1992 and 1997, Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry sponsored a "New Hydrogen Energy (NHE)" program of US$20 million to research cold fusion.[68] Announcing the end of the program in 1997, the director and one-time proponent of cold fusion research Hideo Ikegami stated "We couldn't achieve what was first claimed in terms of cold fusion. (...) We can't find any reason to propose more money for the coming year or for the future."
"In 1 January 1991, Pons left his tenure, and both he and Fleischmann quietly left the United States.[62][63] In 1992 they resumed research with Toyota Motor Corporation's IMRA lab in France.[62] Fleischmann left for England in 1995, and the contract with Pons was not renewed in 1998 after spending $40 million with no tangible results.[64] The IMRA laboratory was closed in 1998 after spending £12 million on cold fusion work."
So the point that I am making is that they both spent years on this project and got no results and overall hundreds of millions of dollars has been spent on this type of research over the past 23 years.
“Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…†â€"-Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center
(you forgot to check the NASA figures AGAIN) 8)
Enjoy,
Chess
Quote from: parisd on April 08, 2012, 05:09:39 AM
Yes, Rossi building secretly a 1 MW in the US without having his patent in hand and without license nor certification, if he was really building a secret unit in the US (why the US ?) he would not be saying that during any internet interview he would be working VERY secretly probably with the US army or eventually NASA and nobody on the net would know about it.
So Rossi is building 13 secret units and we will not know their location nor if they produce hot water, we just have to trust him blindly through internet interviews or rumors. May be all this is real or may be one day after he build up a list of let say 10 000 custumers for the 10Kw unit he will ask a 100$ advance fee from each of them to prepare licensing documentation or just to buy the components like do our dentists, and he will make his first million.
I still hope Cold fusion (and may be Rossi himself) is genuine, some universities have seen unexplained milliwatts of energy and the NASA on his side declared it useless (this is what I found on their website).
Please bring us relevant and verified information on this thread not ridiculous interviews unverifiable like the oilprice one. there should be somewhere after so many months of Rossi media presence.
Parisd - I'm not sure that anyone's under any obligation to provide you with any information at all. And you're certainly under no obligation to read it when that news is brought forward. In fact, those updates are a source of real comfort to those of us who are interested. But. If you're not convinced then I'm not sure that it really matters. Time will tell. That we're discussing it helps. The more so as every bit of attention of this news makes it more likely to survive the scepticism that will otherwise most certainly kill off the technology. There is not likely to be any production at all - if there is no-one who accredits the technology. That's where polarised opinion is still better than no opinion at all.
And Masie - it seems I owe you an apology. There's nothing wrong with that link. So sorry. I've been bitten before - by that kind of 'warning for adults only' and was not sure that I wanted to risk it again. I'm also sorry you're so disheartened. But I'm sure that things will get considerably better and considerably sooner than you think. Right now there's a bit of a tussle between an emerging technology and competing interests. I think we should all try and plumb for the new and emerging. Unless, of course, you've invested in oil or nuclear energy stocks.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
And Chess - as ever, I have much to learn from you. Well done indeed. You make really good points with all the artistry of economy of expression. Really nice.
Moving to "Cold fusion times"
http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html
not a forum but daily LENR news
Parisd,
nice site, I use to scan it now and then.
Among other things I found this information about the effectiveness of the Defkalion unit.
The Defkalion unit seems to be able to keep a self sustain mode much more continously than Rossis e-cat.
Quote from an article in "Cild FusionTimes": http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/report-from-visitor-to-defkalion/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/03/report-from-visitor-to-defkalion/)
"It will cost only 30 Euros/year to operate each LENR deviceâ€
That's a significantly lesser cost to run a unit, compared to the E-cat, which takes more than 28KW of average electricity input per 24 hours to run.
If this is true, and you are living within the European Union, Defkalion may be the best choice, since they claim to have
all cerificates needed for selling their product in Europe.
Gwandau
Quote from: parisd on April 10, 2012, 11:44:17 AM
Moving to "Cold fusion times"
http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html (http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html)
not a forum but daily LENR news
@parisd:
A very nice site for news on cold fusion. Today was the first time I've visited this site and it even had the latest on Piantelli. Excellent coverage.
@Everyone:
The recent "citizen's" complaint lodged against Rossi was by a Mr. Gary Wright. I was wondering if anybody could tell me if the following Gary Wright is the right Gary?
Gary K. Wright
Director
Penn Virginia Corporation
Radnor , PA
Sector: BASIC MATERIALS / Independent Oil & Gas
66 Years Old
Mr. Wright has acted as an independent consultant since 2004. From 2003 to 2004, he served as President of LNB Energy Advisors, a provider of bank credit facilities and strategic advice to small to mid-sized oil and gas producers. From 2001 to 2003, Mr. Wright was an independent consultant to the energy industry. From 1992 to 2001, Mr. Wright served in various capacities with the Global Oil and Gas Group of Chase Manhattan Bank, including as North American Credit Deputy from 1998 to 2001 and as Managing Director and Senior Client Manager in the Southwest from 1992 to 1998. Prior to joining Chase Manhattan Bank, Mr. Wright served as Manager of the Chemical Bank Worldwide Energy Group (1990 to 1992), as Manager of Corporate Banking with Texas Commerce Bank (1987 to 1990) and as Manager of the Energy Group of Texas Commerce Bank (1982 to 1990). In the last five years, Mr. Wright has served on the board of directors of Maritrans Inc. (April 2006 to January 2007). If this is the right Gary, his background would surely answer a lot of questions.
He's publicly listed at this link:
http://people.forbes.com/profile/gary-k-wright/62562 (http://people.forbes.com/profile/gary-k-wright/62562)
Cheers,
Chess
LENR workshop?
http://e-catsite.com/2012/04/09/italian-lenr-workshop-april-10-14/
Chess:
I have cited information that says that millions of dollars were spent on LENR with no results. You have cited people that state that it's real from credible institutions. Certainly that can go on for a long time. Also, I am assuming the stuff that I am citing may not have been pertaining to an alleged nickel-hydrogen reaction. Perhaps some of the links you have cited are the same.
So there is no point in a battle of the links and research papers. The real focus has to be on Rossi's claim of a functioning nickel-hydrogen LENR fusion reactor that is COP 6 or better and can be used in practical commercial applications. In other words, forget the test tube type of alleged fusion reaction where they measure microjoules of energy.
So, my stance is that Rossi has proved nothing and his words are suspect and he has lied in the past.
Where do we go from here? I suppose that we can watch and see what Rossi's next public demonstration will be. Will is be 'real' or will is be more smoke an mirrors with unverifiable claims and no clear and unambiguous independent third party measurements?
Like I said before, if you are the most ardent Rossi fans, then you should have the loudest voices demanding proper measurements and clear unambiguous data verified by independent third party testers. If it is real then let it be real.
It can very frustrating to see bogus presentations and just as frustrating to see a cheering section of fanboys and fangirls that never questions anything. Demand results!
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 11, 2012, 07:21:42 PM
I have cited information that says that millions of dollars were spent on LENR with no results.
You focused only on the negative results and left out the positive results altogether! Do
you think that anybody reading these posts will not notice you have done this? Really?
(lol)
Quote from: MileHigh on April 11, 2012, 07:21:42 PM
The real focus has to be on Rossi's claim of a functioning nickel-hydrogen LENR fusion
reactor that is COP 6 or better and can be used in practical commercial applications. In
other words, forget the test tube type of alleged fusion reaction where they measure
microjoules of energy.
I understand why you would like to isolate the discussion to only Rossi because you can not
debunk LENR technology and this is the technology that Rossi has based his claims on. It's
the common distraction tactic (hey, look over here and NOT over there) designed to take the
focus away from that which ruins your illusion (magicians use this tactic also).
Quote from: MileHigh on April 11, 2012, 07:21:42 PM
So, my stance is that Rossi has proved nothing and his words are suspect and he has lied in
the past.
First of all, I think that most people following this thread know your stance so why you
feel the need to keep repeating it simply raises suspicion regarding your TRUE agenda here.
Secondly, you have lied to us in the past when you stated Rossi was running a scam because
you can't have a scam without ANY victims and you have not given us even ONE SOLITARY VICTIM who has been cheated out of money regarding the E-Cat to date. I find this lie very
disturbing and discrediting towards you.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 11, 2012, 07:21:42 PM
It can very frustrating to see bogus presentations and just as frustrating to see a cheering
section of fanboys and fangirls that never questions anything.
I question you all the time. In fact, I question most of what you post as well as your agenda. How's that for questioning things?
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
I clearly stated that I would be thrilled if this was true. And in fact I was just trying to bring the discussion back to what the title of the thread states - it's about Rossi allegedly being the first to turn this concept into something real and practical. The problem is that he hasn't delivered anything solid and concrete so far. And that's a real problem. Look at the date in the name for the thread.
QuoteSecondly, you have lied to us in the past when you stated Rossi was running a scam because
you can't have a scam without ANY victims and you have not given us even ONE SOLITARY VICTIM who has been cheated out of money regarding the E-Cat to date.
I have alleged that he could be running a scam. In the same vein, you don't have the slightest idea if there are any people that either are financial victims or will be financial victims if this all turns sour. What we do know is that this in fact often happen in cases like this.
QuoteI question you all the time. In fact, I question most of what you post as well as your agenda. How's that for questioning things?
You don't need to play word games. The issue is about questioning Rossi, not questioning me. I am not the issue and you should be questioning Rossi. My agenda is to find the truth. The truth shold have already been revealed by Rossi as of last October. He could have done a five-day demo with a single E-Cat unit where the electrical energy in and the thremal energy out could have been easily verified with absolute rock-solid proof that the device functioned like his claims.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 11, 2012, 10:22:35 PM
Chess:
I clearly stated that I would be thrilled if this was true. And in fact I was just trying to bring the discussion back to what the title of the thread states - it's about Rossi allegedly being the first to turn this concept into something real and practical. The problem is that he hasn't delivered anything solid and concrete so far. And that's a real problem. Look at the date in the name for the thread.
Rossi did indeed meet his deadline as of last October by successfully demonstrating and closing the sale of his first device to his customer who signed off on the deal AFTER a group of his (the customer's) own staff verified the results. The customer is still satisfied and in fact has ordered more units. Just because you were not satisfied does not mean that the customer was not and it is THE CUSTOMER (who above everyone else) who has to be convinced and walk away happy (which is what occurred wether you like it or not).
So the title of this thread DID (past tense) already happen (came to pass as advertised).
Also, it's impossible to judge Rossi's device without looking at the validity of the technology
it's based on. This technology is LENR and you once again sidestepped the validity of this
technology.
Once again I will repeat the question following your quote:
Quote from: MileHigh
I have cited information that says that millions of dollars were spent on LENR with no results.
You focused only on the negative results and left out the positive results altogether! Do
you think that anybody reading these posts will not notice you have done this? Really?
Quote from: MileHigh on April 11, 2012, 10:22:35 PM
I have alleged that he could be running a scam.
Okay, let us return to my dictionary's definition of "scam". My dictionary defines "scam" as:
To scam means to victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change" So then a victimless scam is a contridiction in terms. A scam devoid of a victim is not a scam.
Now you claim justification for the alegations merely because it is possible.
Using this qualification, imagine being pulled over by the police and given a ticket. When you ask the officer why he gave you a speeding ticket, he says it's because it is possible that you were speeding yesterday. He also includes running two stop signs on the same ticket. He states that it is possible that two weeks ago you ran two stop signs and so you are guilty of these violations as well and he is justified.
Imagine walking into a court room and a judge sentences a room full of people to the death penalty for murder. In his sentencing speech, he declares that although there is no proof whatsoever, it is possible all these people murdered someone somewhere and therefore must be guilty.
Can you see a problem with this mentality or is this just perfectly normal to you?
Regards,
Chess
MileHigh,
unfortunately the present stage of the Rossi story does not allow for any conclusions whatsoever.
It's still all up to your own personality, do you want to believe this is actually happening or not?
Perhaps you are the type of person that choses to call the glass of water "half empty", indicating a change towards decrease in the volume.
This type of personality believe that a negative outlook is favorable, since a negative outcome in cases like this is more usual.
The other type of personality calls it "half full", indicating a change towards increase in volume, not because the positive outcome is more frequent,
but due to the descision to be open to a positive outcome until proven wrong.
It's similar to the choice done by those that prefer to give the well known entrophy the universal lead role versus the less known syntrophy.
Actually, are there any cases like this, going this far, involving this much highly academic interest as well as trusts and cooperations involved
in the development?
One big question remains for the pessimist:
Since Rossi won't get any money from any sold e-cats until interests are returned to the Trust in charge, why on earth would he lie???
Everything boils down to this right now:
As long as no obvious proof exists in any direction, nobody is smarter or more realistic,
the optimist is just bravehearted and the pessimist is nothing but a coward.
Gwandau
MileHigh,
I notice you have once again accused Andrea Rossi for being a liar with a criminal past.
This proves your total abscence of knowledge about the Andrea Rossi history.
He was a well known man with high national reputation and all his inventions worked exactly as they should.
There was no way for him to foresee the sudden changes leading to the series of lawsuits following, and he had
to use all his resources to get through all the legal processes set against him.
It seems quite obvious that there was an deliberate agenda against his company, involving the Italian Finance Police Department
as well as those parts of the Italian oil industry threatend by Andrea Rossi's invention.
Since you don't seem to do you homework, I hereby ask you to read the following story about Andrea Rossi.
For your own educational sake, read every word of this interesting story about a man that actually is a honest man with
a high integrity who always has been trying to make a change towards a more healthy environment.
Please do not post anything until you have read this, otherwise I am forced to regard you as a man with shady reasons for being here.
Gwandau
1. The Beginning
Andrea Rossi was born in 1950 on the 3d of June, in Milan.
During his school holidays, from 1957 to 1968, he worked in his father Luigi’s workshop, which specialized in metal carpentry. He learned how to use all the major carpentry tools (welding machines, lathes, hydraulic benders, shears, etc…). He learned to design and build many kinds of machines and how to organize factory work.
During this period nothing special happened. Rossi spent at least 8 hours a day studying, and played sports (athletics: he was Italian road-running champion in 1970, and in 1969 held the Junior World Record for the 24-hour run).
In school he had a special talent for Physics and Chemistry; he enrolled in the University of Milan in order to improve his knowledge of science and its origin from a mathematical-philosophical point of view; he attended prof. Ludovico Geymonat’s special course in the Philosophy of Science.
In 1973, Rossi graduated in Philosophy at the University of Milan with a dissertation on Albert Einstein’s Theory of Relativity and its interrelationship with Husserl’s Phenomenology (Honors Degree: 110/110).
In 1979, Rossi was awarded a degree in Chemical Engineering from Kensington University, California (USA), thanks to the numerous professional credits earned there for the many registered patents he acquired since the first years of his professional career.
From the beginning of his career Rossi continued his research into systems for recovering energy from waste.
In 1974, he registered a patent for an incineration system with a post-combustion turbine.
He studied river purification (see: The Incineration of Waste and Smoke Purification [L’incenerimento dei rifiuti e la depurazione dei fumi], a book published in 1978 by Tecniche Nuove, Milan); in 1977, registered a patent for a new high-temperature filter cleaner â€" in defense of the intellectual property thereof â€" a lawsuit for patent infringement was filed and won against Bayer Leverkusen.
In order to produce patented equipment within the family-owned plant “La Metallotecnicaâ€, Rossi created the “Dragon†division, which specialized in the production of waste incinerators with energy recovery, and of smoke purification plants.
In order to compete with worldwide competitors and to achieve even better results, Rossi continued his rigorous study on the use and development of chemical and physical processes related to these technologies. The relevant results have been widely discussed in his book The Incineration of Waste and River Purification, published in Milan by Tecniche Nuove in 1978; this publication has also been adopted as an auxiliary text in the Chemical Plants course held at the Polytechnic Institute of Milan.
Worldwide, in the years between 1971 and 1996, Dragon built some 1500 waste incineration plants with energy recovery. Between 1975 and 1996 it set up approximately 200 purification plants.
2. Fuel from Waste â€" The Birth of Petroldragon
Rossi’s passion for research and innovation endured: in 1978 â€" in a social and historical context where the problem of energy sources had become quite topical â€" he focused on the possibility of turning organic waste in a liquid very similar to that oil which is extracted every day from the deepest layers of the earth’s crust.
It is common knowledge that plant and animal organic wastes are processed over time into oil by the extremely high pressure exerted by the force of gravity, as well as by the temperature gradients stemming from the ever-molten core in the center of the Earth. Much in the same manner, Rossi contemplated the possibility of creating the necessary environmental conditions for this process artificially, by speeding up those chemical and physical transformations occurring in nature over a time span of whole geological eras. In a manner of speaking, he wanted to simulate a job that takes our planet several million years to complete.
There were countless difficulties and technical obstacles to be faced in order to turn this insight to a practical, repeatable, and inexpensive procedure. Lengthy studies and repeated attempts led to the development of a technology which was able to simulate the phenomenon that occurs in the heart of the earth, by subjecting waste to repeated pressures and changes of temperature in a reducing atmosphere until a mixture of fuel oil, coal and gas was obtained (the latter being used to power the process itself).
This innovative technology was patented by the Cicogna Patent Office [Ufficio Brevetti Cicogna] of Milan in 1978.
People interested in an in-depth knowledge of the events concerning these difficult beginnings and in a more complete view of the process, may read the following books:
Oil from Waste , [Petrolio dai rifiuti], Sugarco Editrice, Milan 1980.
In the Name of Oil [In nome del petrolio], GEI-Rizzoli, Milan 1983; reprint: Mondadori, Milan 1985.
The revolutionary potential of this project was clear from the very first; in a few months, Petroldragon â€" this being the name of the company which was established to develop and implement the technology â€" was able to produce, albeit by means of a yet rather makeshift and primitive apparatus, two tons of oil from ten tons of organic wastes â€" that is to say, that fraction of municipal waste consisting of paper, wood, plastic, food, and the like.
In 1978, with Rossi’s investment already on the level of several hundred million Lire, the technology for the production of oil from waste was finalized, and the transforming apparatus was, for all intents and purposes, in working order.
3. The Refluopetrolio Media Boom
News about the product quickly reached the media, which praised its potential right from the beginning.
On television, the national news, such as TG1 [Telegiornale 1], talked about it; on paper, it got written up by the Corriere della Sera, La Repubblica, Il Sole 24 Ore, Il Giorno, Il Giornale and almost all the local newspapers, as well as by magazines such as L’Espresso, Panorama, Oggi, Gente , and others. News of the Rossi procedure were reported by nearly all the major Italian newspapers.
Soon, the product manufactured by Petroldragon came to be known as Refluopetrolio.
Not long thereafter the news arrived overseas, where U.S. President Jimmy Carter showed his interest in the technology, and right away offered Rossi a permanent entry visa to the United States, in the hopes of convincing him to move to the U.S. to further develop his work. Rossi accepted the invitation to come to the U.S., but he stayed in Washington D.C. for for only a few weeks, as he was still convinced he could refine his invention in his mother country.
In 1983 Rossi, whose success was by now well established, looked to further development of his idea, and, after ten months’ work and a financial investment of half a billion Lire, set up a facility that produced twenty tons of fuel oil a day, transforming one hundred tons of organic waste.
4. The Qualitative Leap and the Acquisition of Omar Refinery
From the very start, Rossi’s invention allowed the transformation of organic waste into oil, which was subsequently sold to companies specialized in refining in order to make commonly used products such as fuel oils and solvents. Thus, refineries have always been Petroldragon’s typical client.
In 1990 Rossi began to realize the importance of his invention, as well as how its possible applications, once widely distributed, might gain world-wide recognition. He decided to work directly on the manufacture of the end product, and, with a financial investment of more than 4 billion Lire backed by a line of credit with various banks, he bought Omar Refinery.
Omar was ideally suited to treat Petroldragon products, as it had originally been a refinery specialized in lubricating oils. It had a very expensive vacuum distillation column made entirely of stainless steel, an instrument of great importance for processing the product.
By transforming oil coming from Petroldragon, in a short time Omar became an independent producer of finished products such as fuel, oil and solvents, which had previously been manufactured by other companies.
5. Petroldragon Associate Companies
To ensure a continuous supply of such indispensable raw material (waste), Petroldragon set up a complex supply network, stipulating contracts with many large Italian companies. These were selected among those companies producing, as part of their normal activities, large amounts of waste that best suited, in type and quality, the transformation processes created by Rossi.
The type of collected waste essentially consisted of refuse matter from industrial organic materials such as plastics, rubber, spent solvents as well as food processing waste, etc.
Among the many Petroldragon customers we find Unicem, Cementificio di Merone, Lombardi Solventi (solvents), Cartiera di Sora (paper mill), etc.
These companies used the Petroldragon product, refined by Omar, as fuel or as raw material for the production of solvents.
Petroldragon sold its products for about 30% less compared to similar fossil-derived products on the market.
The Petroldragon process benefited from continued support and advice by Milan Polytechnic University, with which Petroldragon had a research cooperation agreement.
In particular, Prof. Paolo Centola, expert in chemical plants, was the main contact on the Polytechnic side for this collaboration.
6. Plans for the Future
Building on the results of Petroldragon and Omar, Rossi began to think of ways to realize a dream: the creation of a fuel product targeting cars and trucks, whose importance was so prominent among energy sources for the Italian economy.
In Rossi’s plants, the idea of moving cars and transportation in general using the proven reprocess of waste from human society began to take shape. The new type of fuel would complement or replace fossil petroleum derivatives. A public information campaign was launched.
On the refinery premises, a small race track about one kilometer long was built on an experimental basis. There, several Fiat 131 cars without license plates began to make laps powered by a diesel oil â€" like fuel made from food processing waste.
In 1993, the Petroldragon Formula 3 racing team featuring Alfa Romeo single-seat cars was born.
The Petroldragon car maintained an respectful track record, consistently finishing the races with a mid-field placement. Without overly serious ambitions in racing, this car powered by waste-derived fuel was able to compete with cars powered by the most common petroleum products. This was a proof, asserting the product of Rossi as a real alternative to fossil fuels.
Rossi, Petroldragon and Omar are the pioneers of research in this field, which many years later led to the production of today’s biodiesel, now regularly used in diesel fuels.
At that time, the Omar-Petroldragon group of companies was valuated at around 50 billion lire by expert economists.
7. The U-Turn
Until 1987 the raw materials used by Petroldragon for the production of fuel oil was considered secondary refuse matter, meaning waste from processing of raw materials, or other materials resulting from the recovery and recycling of waste. At that time, products derived from these materials were exempted from requiring any permission for waste disposal.
Without any warning and any explanation, suddenly all secondary materials similar to those obtained and used by Petroldragon were considered toxic waste. Consequently, all products derived therefrom were considered toxic waste as well. The activities of acquisition, storage, handling of such materials and products suddenly required government permits and government concessions. Since before that date, this never had been a requirement, Petroldragon obviously did not have permits or licenses for waste treatment.
Up to then, Petroldragon activities were always in conformance from a public authorities point of view. They were now suddenly considered illegal and unauthorized. By legislative decree, in a very short time, all equipment was sequestered. The government then determined that tanks used for storing incoming raw materials were illegal dumps of toxic waste.
From this moment on, and for many years to follow, Rossi was subjected to an endless number of arrests and prosecutions.
It is interesting to note that right from the start of business, all incoming raw materials and all outgoing final products of the Petroldragon and Omar plants had always been subject to rigorous monitoring by the “Guardia di Finanzaâ€, since the final products are subject to a production tax. This means that all incoming and outgoing waste products had been steadily and continuously sampled and analyzed by the Ministry of Finance.
During its period of activity, Petroldragon-Omar paid the state more than 2 billion Lire in production taxes, because their end product had always been considered a fuel, subject to a specific production tax on fuels.
It is quite paradoxical that on one hand, the Italian state has collected billions of Lire from Rossi companies in taxes for years, thereby confirming that indeed, the products belonged in the fuel category, subjected to fuel tax. On the other hand, the state then outlawed the same activities by fiat, even retroactively, activities which had been generating such large amounts of tax revenue.
In this way the Italian state seems to be an accomplice in a “criminal association†conspiracy, fully aware of the modus operandi from the beginning: more precisely still, acting as its regulating and controlling authority.
8. An annoying invention
The sudden policy reversal of regulatory authorities, forbidding a previously explicitly accepted and even taxed activity, brought both the Omar and the Petroldragon plants to confront â€" at same time and by strange coincidence â€" an unexpected opposition. A politically organized public opinion campaign developed, singling out Rossi as an environment polluter and tax evader.
Environmental organizations rose up against "the polluter" Rossi and a smear campaign was initiated in order to destroy the man, the companies and all the work done so far.
By now, Rossi was a major player in the field of petroleum products, thanks to his work and research conducted in the Omar and Petroldragon plants. Thinking about it in hindsight, one cannot avoid noticing the time coincidence between the war against Rossi and the clear decision on the part of leading crime organizations to enter the business of waste management in order to gain a monopoly.
The purpose of “waste treatment process†on the part by crime organizations is actually the unregulated and illegal burial of waste in landfill (in Campania) with subsequent polluting of agricultural land and groundwater. This modus operandi and its timeline, as many famous writers and journalists have unveiled [reference to Saviano’s Gomorra], is by now well documented and sheds new truth on the mysteries and cover-ups of the past.
In the same time period, the Petroldragon and Omar factories waste processing methods were starting to compete with actual petroleum-based producers and as well as with organizations that were making money exploiting unregulated waste management.
Rossi’s successes suddenly became a major cause of lower earnings on the part of his competitors, and he was targeted as an enemy for people who were seeking to control the waste management business in the North of Italy.
9. The persecution
Suddenly the materials processed at Petroldragon for the production of fuel oil became subjected to waste management regulations: the company, of course did not have the related permits and clearances, and the activities were deemed illegal. The same administrative action happened to the the final products: they were previously considered as petroleum fuel for refinery processes, but now they were to be considered as waste. But even the Omar plants lacked the necessary permits.
Even more, the Omar plant products, previously accepted and taxed as industry grade fuel, became classified as waste and all the customers already storing them in warehouses and factories found themselves without the required authorizations, and therefore outlawed.
The Petroldragon, Omar and customer plants were all seized by authorities and eventually released only if they commited to stop acquisition and processing of Omar/Petroldragon products.
All the credit lines were revoked by the same banks Rossi had always done business with.
The credit conditions and sales disruption brought the abrupt shutdown of all company operations and income sources.
The group's situation was critical. What followed was Rossi's arrest and imprisonment, without any possibility to save the companies. The massive media smear campaign was successful in suddenly wiping out companies whose brand value was estimated at 50 billion lire (around 30-35 million USD in 1987) and which employed 150 people.
There is no need to describe the psychological state of Rossi, sued and imprisoned, watching every day as his reputation and the long years of his efforts were attacked. The smear campaign was carried on public TV broadcasting and showed organized rallies against his plants where large deposits of materials, previously ready to become oil fuel, were now turning in toxic waste graveyards.
The media did not give Rossi a fair chance to express his own views; his operations involving waste transformation were not an unregulated activity intended to evade disposal costs or violate environmental regulations.
This confirmed the interest of the market for Rossi's efforts and, above all, demonstrated that customers had already managed to overcome the prejudice tied to this “magical product,†thanks to Rossi's years of work, injuries, humiliations, fights.
Needless to say: any refinery that is seized and closed would not appear to be a repository of industrial materials but instead a repository of toxic waste - which they are if not transformed.
Even a car tank, if abandoned, would become a toxic waste deposit just because the gasoline would no longer be usable for an automotive fuel and therefore considered a waste, toxic and dangerous because of the very same chemical features of gasoline.
10. The Surrender - End of a dream
After the companies were closed or seized, it is easy to understand that the banks not only refused any loan requests, but also demanded immediate return of all previously granted money, the credit allowance that helped to fund the research and development and machinery building and equipment purchase.
It’s easy to estimate the large amount of money needed fund the exponential growth of the cleanup operations that were taking place.
Rossi gave to the banks, as collateral for the loans, personal and family assets worth 50 billion lire (30-35 millions USD in 1987). These were seized and managed by the bankruptcy receivers. A finance nightmare hit all of Rossi's companies one by one and caused his bankruptcy.
Rossi found himself completely stripped of any property and lost all his money.
Government authorities enforced the assessment and remediation of any possible environmental damage and some third-party companies were charged with the task of disposal of the already-refined products and raw materials that Petroldragon and Omar would have profited from, but were instead forced to be disposed as toxic waste.
The government-enforced disposal was contracted in only a few days and this was very strange because such awards normal take a long time to be contracted. Also, the cost of this disposal procedure was extremely suspicious: in the 1990s, Petroldragon and Omar payed about 400 lire per kilogram for waste that was to be transformed in their facilities. The government-enforced disposal costs reached, for the same kind of treatment, the absurd level of 1500 lire per kilogram, clearly beyond any market bound.
Everybody can draw their own conclusion about this abnormal difference in price.
Even the time to allocate the funds for the expensive environmental remediation was somehow strange and very short -- usually years are needed -- even in case of similar “environmental emergencies.†It is clear that the funding was already planned and prepared long before the unfolding of the events that led Rossi to prison. Also, for this circumstance everyone can draw his own deductions.
Again it should be noted the strange coincidence of timing between these events and the beginning of the Camorra crime organization entry in the waste management business.
All of the above have been widely documented and demonstrated during Rossi's court trials.
In the past 17 years, Rossi has been in 56 trials, forcing him into deep debt because of the financial disaster, and it is still not completely paid off.
Of all 56 prosecutions, the ones which led to imprisonment ended with acquittals; only 5 of the prosecutions for tax crime ended with convictions (with some custody imprisonments). All of the other prosecutions ended with acquittal or for statute of limitation. The same Petroldragon and Omar customers, even those who suffered factory seizures or prosecutions because of involvement with Rossi's companies, testified as witnesses in favor of the defendant.
Despite the acquittals and despite having fulfilled the promises about the production processes, the industrial activity was inexorably compromised and nothing could be done to recover the situation.
11. Rebirth
In December of 1996 Rossi, without a penny, emigrated to the USA and took employment in a company specializing in systems for energy production from biomass: the Bio Development Corporation in Bedford, New Hampshire.
He let the company use his previous patents and after a few months he was appointed Chief Scientist.
Bio Development had professional relationship with the U.S. Department of Energy to research renewable energy sources and from this basis, Rossi's collaboration started.
Rossi’s contribution was relevant: many new patent applications were filed, in his name, about energy production from non-fossil sources.
The methods developed during his work at Petroldragon and Omar plants led to very important contributions to bio-fuel production technologies and even today many biomass plants are based on those processes.
In 2000 Rossi realized an important plant for production of charcoal from wood waste in Chicago but, while starting the construction, he had to face another trouble caused by the Italian government. During a journey back to Italy from the U.S., when he landing at Rome airport, he was served an arrest warrant for bankruptcy of Omar company and immediately imprisoned.
Rossi was released only after a long judicial procedural battle. During this time of forced residence in Italy, Rossi developed the technology of electricity production from biomass, then elaborated in the US.
In the meanwhile he kept professional relationships with people in the U.S. and started working with LTI (Leonardo Technology Incorporated) a company providing technology and equipment to DOE and DOD for the production of energy from renewable sources.
In 2009 Rossi went back to the U.S. permanently and he directed the development of a new energy source, patented by himself, to which the U.S. institutions assigned the priority status.
Chess:
QuoteRossi did indeed meet his deadline as of last October by successfully demonstrating and closing the sale of his first device to his customer who signed off on the deal AFTER a group of his (the customer's) own staff verified the results. The customer is still satisfied and in fact has ordered more units.
That's just a case of "Rossi says." I won't believe it until I hear confirmation from other sources. You have no idea who the alleged customer is.
QuoteSo then a victimless scam is a contridiction in terms. A scam devoid of a victim is not a scam.
You cannot make that statement because you are not all-knowing. What I know is that there is a consistent pattern of scamming in the free energy cottage industry. Just look at Magnacoaster as an example. In my opinion Rossi's behaviour is similar to the behaviour of other known scammers. Therefore I am suggesting that there is a distinct possibility that he is a scammer but I don't have any proof, just like Rossi has not presented any proof that he has a working device.
Gwandau:
QuoteAs long as no obvious proof exists in any direction, the optimist is bravehearted and the pessimist is a coward.
I think that statement would leave a bitter taste in the mouths of the thousands and thousands of people that have lost millions and millions of dollars in investments like we are talking about. I believe than in the past 20 years Blacklight Power has burned through 400 million dollars. In the past 10 years, Steorn has burned though about 14 million dollars. Both companies have produced nothing - nada - zero.
I am going to quote myself, because this is all that really counts:
QuoteHe could have done a five-day demo with a single E-Cat unit where the electrical energy in and the thremal energy out could have been easily verified with absolute rock-solid proof that the device functioned like his claims.
And both of you know that was not done. Why not? Something for you to ponder....
MileHigh
MileHigh,
do your homework, read the AR story and get to know Andrea Rossi just a little better. He's a good guy with good intentions.
The scentists doing close monitoring of many hour tests are all agreeing that the e-cat beyond any doubt produces an unexplained
excess of heat.
THEY ALL AGREE IT'S BEYOND DOUBT, AND THEIR TESTS ARE SCIENTIFICALLY VALID, AND ANDREA ROSSI DON'T
HAVE ANY REASON WHATSOEVER TO WASTE ANY MORE TIME ON INCURABLE SCEPTICS LIKE YOU.
HELLO! ANYBODY HOME!?
Gwandau
Added: By throwing out things about Black Light Power being crooks just because they still are in development is soo childish, MileHigh,
and it greatly discredits you, in this light making you exposed as the sorrowful one you really are. The Black Light guys are no crooks,
they are just pioneers, struggling to get hold onto a new paradigm. Your sceptiscism is pathetic and maybe pathological in source,
since you are so cunningly trying to look like a serious and honest guy with a healthy critical mind, which you just proved not to be.
I doubt you are interested in anything positive, but Black Light have got interesting responses from the Harvard Smithsonian
Center for Astrophysics as well as the Rowan University:
GEN3 Partners and Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA) Scientists have confirmed the light signature of hydrino formation, high-energy radiation emitted as the electron of the hydrogen atom undergoes a transition below what was previously considered the lowest energy state. Read the results in the GEN3 and CfA Report "Validation of the Observation of Soft X-ray Continuum Radiation from Low-Energy Pinch Discharges in the Presence of Molecular Hydrogen." Click here for layman PowerPoint presentation. - 11/29/10
Rowan University scientists have issued their third report on the independent validation of solid fuels that on demand generated energy up to 6.5 times the maximum energy potential of these materials from known chemical reactions and thermally regenerated the reactants demonstrating their capability of a maintaining a continuous fuel cycle for power production. A new form of hydrogen was again confirmed to have formed as a result of the heat release. Read the results in the Rowan University Report "Anomalous Heat Gains from Regenerative Chemical Mixtures: Characterization of BLP Chemistries Used for Energy Generation and Regeneration Reactions" - 11/29/10
HELLO! ANYBODY HOME?! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
@Gwand:
Why have you left out the story of Rossi's superefficient ThermoElectric modules? You know... the ones he developed and tried to sell to the US DoD (military) but which failed to live up to his promises when a unit was finally delivered for testing..... and then his factory burned down..... and then he was never able to make thermoelectric modules that worked again. Or perhaps you don't know this story... since you have omitted to mention it.
Now... if he had that superefficient technology THEN...... and he needs to be able to convert lowgrade heat into electricity NOW......... well, I'm sure you can "do the math". Rossi doesn't seem to like it when this little episode from his past is mentioned. Maybe.... is it possible, do you think..... that perhaps.... just perhaps.... he did NOT have what he claimed to have, then, and conveniently suffered a case of "Italian Lightning" to close that chapter permanently?
A report on Rossi's ThermoElectric Modules that was as detailed as that PetrolDragon advert.... now that would be an interesting read.
Gwandau:
You know that you have to "go to the Dark Side" to get some balance and not just gobble up all of the "good news" and blindly believe all of it.
Try doing a Google search on "Blacklight Power fraud" and "Blacklight Power scam" or "Blacklight Power hoax" or "Blacklight Power failure" and see what comes up.
You are a thinking man, don't you want to look at both sides of the story? Aren't we talking about a company that has been promising unlimited free energy from "hydrinos" for the last 21 years, says QEM is all wrong, and has never delivered a real, working, functioning system? Considering all that, don't you think it's worth it to invest an hour of your time doing some "Dark Side" searches?
Here is just a taste picked randomly...
QuoteAll this is the work of inventor and scientist Randell Mills (http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2006/03/voodoo-science.html) (pictured), who has for many years been developing his theory of 'Classical Quantum Mechanics (http://www.blacklightpower.com/theory/theory.shtml)' (see Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randell_Mills) for more details and links). The theory has been widely discredited by many conventional physicists for being, among other things, quite clearly wrong. Dr Mills is not to be dissuaded, however, and continues in his valiant efforts to convince the world that a new energy breakthrough is just around the corner thanks to his new 'hydrino' energy source. Blacklight, which appears to be a commercial vehicle for Dr Mills' ideas, has even been able to obtain investment money to pursue these ideas and attempt to get some patent protection. So far, it seems that Blacklight is not doing particularly well. Even the USPTO realised (eventually (http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/federal/judicial/fed/opinions/00opinions/00-1530.html)) that some of their claims were a bit too outlandish to justify granting a patent on.
MileHigh
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on April 10, 2012, 02:30:44 AM
And Chess - as ever, I have much to learn from you. Well done indeed. You make really good points with all the artistry of economy of expression. Really nice.
@Rosemary:
Thank you but these points could not be made without the obvious smear campaign that the main opponents have waged here. It is clear that they are not even allowed to concede that LENR technology has positive results that are well documented and published. Even NASA now endorses LENR technology so it's simply an exercise in futility to keep on denying the reality of positive results achieved (LOL).
One opponent has sidestepped my validity question (concerning LENR) now for the second time in a row and thinks he's fooling someone here. It's like I stated earlier; They would like to isolate the discussion to only Rossi because they can not debunk LENR technology and this is the technology that Rossi has based his claims on. It's the common distraction tactic (hey, look over here and NOT over there) designed to take the focus away from that which ruins their illusion (magicians use this tactic also).
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess:
In a way I don't have to debunk LENR. You know the fundamental 'problem,' perhaps there in a more appropriate word, with nuclear fusion is that you have to overcome the electrostatic repulsion between the two nuclei and then they have to his hard enough into each other to overcome the strong force and fuse together to create a new nucleus. I am no expert, just a lay person here, but I just can't fathom how a hydrogen atom bouncing around inside a lattice of nickel atoms can possibly do that. I don't know how many mega or giga electron volts of energy it takes to do nickel-hydrogen fusion but I suppose I could look it up. There is such a huge energy potential barrier to overcome that I just can't fathom it. I really can't. And quasi 'sleight of hand' explanations by the fanboys don't work for me. "It's a new way of doing it." A new way WHAT? It just doesn't work for me.
Like I already said, I am not interested in a "battle of the test tubes." There is no end to that argument. I agree, some legitimate researchers have endorsed LENR, some legitimate researchers haven't endorsed it. What's a boy to do?
The proof in the pudding is real tangible results. So I am waiting for them. I have already discounted anything that Rossi might say. The only thing that Rossi can do to convince me is deliver the goods. You try to portray me as evil, and all that I am asking him to do is deliver the goods.
So bringing it all back home, I don't have to debunk LENR. Rather, LENR has to prove it is real in a practical working application like Rossi claims. That is the issue, it's the burden of proof and where it truly applies.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 12:38:49 AM
Chess:
In a way I don't have to debunk LENR.
You can't so why would you even try?
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 12:38:49 AM
Like I already said, I am not interested in a "battle of the test tubes."
Well of course not. It ruins your whole illusion of this evil baseless Rossi monster you are trying to project. You are obviously not interested in the truth. The truth illuminates you.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 12:38:49 AM
I agree, some legitimate researchers have endorsed LENR, some legitimate researchers haven't endorsed it. What's a boy to do?
...and still, no admission of positive results published per peer review concerning LENR technology. Just more sidestepping of the validity issue ::)
And to answer your question; Stop acting like a boy.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 12:38:49 AM
I have already discounted anything that Rossi might say.
This goes without saying. A closed mind finally admits itself with a Freudian slip ;)
@Everyone:
Here's the latest news release:
Dear Mark Saker:You are right: very much is going on behind the scenes, because in this matter is best first do things, then talk of them.We will give due information of all the facts we will have made, while during the making of them we prefer to work in silence, to work better.The 1 MW plant is for military purpose, it cannot be seen, but when we will have (soon) a plant in operation that will be visitable, People like you, who have helped us, will be invited to visit it.Very important things are in the making, but, again, I prefer making before talking. Warm Regards, A.R. Here's the link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/rossi-prefers-making-before-talking-what-would-you-do-in-his-shoes/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/rossi-prefers-making-before-talking-what-would-you-do-in-his-shoes/)
So the first customer IS a military branch! My guess was correct ;D
Enjoy,
Chess
MileHigh,
nuclear science is in its infant stage, more groping in the dark than knowing very much.
Hot fusion is doing it the violent way, by brutal force, like blasting the door instead of opening it with the key.
Of course there is an abundance of yet not discovered ways to execute changes within the nucleus.
What makes you think we know everything needed to know about fusion. How utterly ignorant!
Don't you see that we still are more close to a bunch of chimpansees playing with lighters, than truly understanding what's going on?
You repeatedly refer to the "layman", but these "bright" guys of today are all mimicking the almost hundred years old theoretical math and
concepts of Werner Heisenberg, Max Born and Niels Borh, and the halting efforts to camoflage the paradoxes and contradictions with things
such as the wave-particle duality of energy and matter and the uncertainty principle just makes things worse, and even worse it gets when the
string theory is presented.
Can't you smell the bad breath of bad theory, or are you just like the rest in the "Emperors new clothes", duped by the mere authority of the
so called legitimate nuclear scientist. Are you one of those impressed by the Cern LHC, mankinds chimpaneese tool to explore physical reality
by means of pure violence?
Smash heavy particles together and see what happens. Maybe we find the "God Particle" and thus will be able to nail God to the floor,
saying AHA! there we got you! As far as I am concerned, this is the uttermost sign of mankinds stupidity, and her self imposed
degradation of understanding the Universe.
Just wait and see, and meanwhile keep on degrading any sign of non legitimate scientific report to nothing but the products of scammers and crooks,
which seems to be the only thing you are good at, poor fellow.
Since this thread only seems to be occupied by your posts and our futile efforts to inject hope into your miserable negativity,
I will from now on avoid any further communication with you.
Gwandau
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 12:38:49 AM
Chess:
In a way I don't have to debunk LENR. You know the fundamental 'problem,' perhaps there in a more appropriate word, with nuclear fusion is that you have to overcome the electrostatic repulsion between the two nuclei and then they have to his hard enough into each other to overcome the strong force and fuse together to create a new nucleus. I am no expert, just a lay person here, but I just can't fathom how a hydrogen atom bouncing around inside a lattice of nickel atoms can possibly do that. I don't know how many mega or giga electron volts of energy it takes to do nickel-hydrogen fusion but I suppose I could look it up. There is such a huge energy potential barrier to overcome that I just can't fathom it. I really can't. And quasi 'sleight of hand' explanations by the fanboys don't work for me. "It's a new way of doing it." A new way WHAT? It just doesn't work for me.
Like I already said, I am not interested in a "battle of the test tubes." There is no end to that argument. I agree, some legitimate researchers have endorsed LENR, some legitimate researchers haven't endorsed it. What's a boy to do?
The proof in the pudding is real tangible results. So I am waiting for them. I have already discounted anything that Rossi might say. The only thing that Rossi can do to convince me is deliver the goods. You try to portray me as evil, and all that I am asking him to do is deliver the goods.
So bringing it all back home, I don't have to debunk LENR. Rather, LENR has to prove it is real in a practical working application like Rossi claims. That is the issue, it's the burden of proof and where it truly applies.
MileHigh
I agree, but only to a degree. I have no doubt, there are plenty of things discovered or invented which are of
no practical use whatsoever. LOLI also understand the conundrum that LENR presents with our current knowledge and theory on nuclear reactions. But as is the way of science, the best response thereafter, is always, "more information please!".
Cheers
Right.
And the information about Rossi and the US DoD (Army) and the ThermoElectric modules is important information that seems to be missing from the Rossi history given above. I don't know about the militaries of other countries.... nor do I know anything about Italian law wrt selling Italian technology to the militaries of other countries.... but I do know this much: there is no way, after the ThermoElectric Modules, that US DoD will have anything to do with Rossi or his "reactors".
NASA were also not impressed with Rossi at the recent failed demonstration, nor at the private meetings that were conducted.
It's nice to see that Rossi has changed his mind about military customers, though. Last year he explicitly ruled out military uses and customers for his products.
Do you think the "military" has actually finally removed that blue shipping container from Rossi's rooms, or did he build them another different unit?
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 13, 2012, 07:29:55 AM
Right.
And the information about Rossi and the US DoD (Army) and the ThermoElectric modules is important information that seems to be missing from the Rossi history given above. I don't know about the militaries of other countries.... nor do I know anything about Italian law wrt selling Italian technology to the militaries of other countries.... but I do know this much: there is no way, after the ThermoElectric Modules, that US DoD will have anything to do with Rossi or his "reactors".
You keep referring to this. Where is this information TK? I am reasonably certain that the the USA DoD - or a branch of it - are most CERTAINLY doing business with Rossi. And how do you KNOW all this? Are you implying 'insider information' or is there something on public record? And what relevance is there to this - regardless? We're discussing the E-cat. And even the Hyperion. Are you proposing that this is all an elaborate hoax? And if so - to what end? It can't be to defraud the public. So. If there's no requirement for cash - if these hoaxes are NOT being perpetrated in order to solicit some substantial public investment without any need to deliver - then WHY are they bothering? Surely it would be a rather reckless adventure otherwise? With no goal in sight other than to entertain and divert us all with the orchestrated hoax of a profitless scam? Which in itself is a contradiction in terms. And why does this merit your URGENT need to deny any benefit. Wouldn't the sensible thing be to sit back and see what happens. Defkalion promise us delivery by July this year. I believe Rossi is on track for delivery by September. And on heavy duty numbers - Rossi's already delivered.
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 13, 2012, 07:29:55 AMNASA were also not impressed with Rossi at the recent failed demonstration, nor at the private meetings that were conducted.
Where is there anything at all stating that 'NASA consider Rossi's demonstration to have 'failed'? And what exactly was publicly reported about a private meeting?
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 13, 2012, 07:29:55 AMIt's nice to see that Rossi has changed his mind about military customers, though. Last year he explicitly ruled out military uses and customers for his products.
Again. In what context?
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 13, 2012, 07:29:55 AMDo you think the "military" has actually finally removed that blue shipping container from Rossi's rooms, or did he build them another different unit?
You tell US TK. I'm rather tired of your endless insinuations.
Rosie Pose
Chess, Gwandau - all
There is a rather sad legacy that we all face. It's the damning emphases made by early claims of cold fusion - that we're still confronting. It was branded a 'pathological science'. And that branding has stuck. I suspect that the intention of our detractors is to perpetuate that branding. Because while they DENY the evidence - then they can also continue to cast doubts on the technology.
But what I don't understand is this. Why are they still bothering to deny this? Surely that's rather fatuous? What earthly merit is there in denying anything at all? Is it an effort to maintain that 'branding'? Because, if so, it's not going to work. The interest is already mushrooming - exponentially. And when their products come on line it's only going to get stronger. So? What do MileHigh and TK hope to achieve? It's not as if their denials are effective? I just don't get it. Why do they bother?
Regards,
Rosemary
Why bother? Why not exchange ideas and try to find out what the real truth is?
QuoteThe interest is already mushrooming - exponentially.
That would be true if Rossi was discussed in the lay press. But in fact he isn't at all. There is no "exponential mushrooming" going on anywhere with respect to Rossi. But who knows how many people want to invest in his schemes behind the scenes? The answer to that is nobody knows except for Rossi's inner circle.
Here is a follow-up to the thermoelectric generator story from Wikipedia:
QuoteElectricity from waste heat In the US Rossi started the consulting firm Leonardo Technologies, Inc. (LTI). He secured a defense contract to evaluate the potential of generating electricity from waste heat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_heat) by using thermoelectric generators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_generator). Such devices are normally only used for refrigeration (Peltier effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier_effect)), because the efficiency for generating electrical power is only a few percent. Rossi suggested that his devices could attain 20 % efficiency. A demonstration that he conducted at the University of New Hampshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_New_Hampshire) produced 100 volt at 1 ampere (100 watt) during a week. Larger modules would be manufactured in Italy. Rossi sent 27 thermoelectric devices for evaluation to the Engineer Research and Development Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer_Research_and_Development_Center); 19 of these did not produce any electricity at all. The remaining units produced less than 1 watt each, instead of the expected 800â€"1000 watt.[10]
Anybody that works in technology would find that story laughable. Assuming that the 'factory' burned down like TK said, then as a result the DoD quality auditors had nowhere to go. How about them apples?
I wonder how much the DoD paid for the 27 thermoelectric devices...
Who said that the testing at the University of New Hampshire produced 100 watts continuously for one week? I don't know the answer to that but I would not be surprised if "Rossi said."
MileHigh
Same Wikipedia article:
QuoteIn January 2011 Andrea Rossi and Professor Sergio Focardi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Focardi) claimed to have successfully demonstrated commercially viable cold fusion in a device called an Energy Catalyzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer), although in an interview Rossi claimed that his Energy Catalyzer is not working on the basis of cold fusion, but weak [force] nuclear reactions.[11] The international patent application received an unfavorable international preliminary report on patentability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_Cooperation_Treaty#Optional_examination) because it seemed to "offend against the generally accepted laws of physics and established theories" and to overcome this problem the application should have contained either experimental evidence or a firm theoretical basis in current scientific theories.[12] Journalists were not allowed to examine the core of the reactor, and there is still uncertainty about the viability of the invention.[13]
Attached please find the report on Rossi's thermoelectric module testing from DoD.
http://dodfuelcell.cecer.army.mil/library_items/Thermo(2004).pdf (http://dodfuelcell.cecer.army.mil/library_items/Thermo(2004).pdf)
@Everyone:
Well since his first customer turns out to be a branch of the military, the secrecy request doesn't surprise me. What military is not secretive?
If there is one type of customer you would NEVER want to even dream of pulling a scam on, it would be a military one. There goes the idea of Rossi running a scam crowd ;D
Cheers,
Chess
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 04:46:48 PM
Why bother? Why not exchange ideas and try to find out what the real truth is?
I am intrigued with this phrase 'real truth'. It's a phrase that is heavily relied on by so many of you 'disclaimers'. Reality and truth are one and the same thing. You cannot have reality without knowing the truth. And you cannot have the truth without knowing the reality. The one term cannot qualify the other. They are one and the same. Tautological. Yet the 'implication' is that there are some forms of truth that are true and there are some forms of truth that are not quite so true. Which is an entire misapplication of the meaning of either term. It is either a truth or it is NOT. No other options. Since so much of these disclaimers depend the implication that there has been some 'sleight of hand' or some 'disguised result' - then there is also the need to promote the concept of a 'lie'. Which is implicit in that rather abusive distinction between truth and reality. And thereby they manage their actual target. Guys - I'm entirely satisfied that there is no-one here who is 'suckered'. I am constantly angered at this insulting level of insinuation that is promoted with all the subtlety of a meteorite in free fall.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 04:46:48 PMThat would be true if Rossi was discussed in the lay press. But in fact he isn't at all. There is no "exponential mushrooming" going on anywhere with respect to Rossi. But who knows how many people want to invest in his schemes behind the scenes? The answer to that is nobody knows except for Rossi's inner circle.
And here it is again. While it is true that the knowledge of this technology will indeed 'mushroom' at an even greater pace than it's managing at the moment - when our media take hold of these TRUTHS - the fact is that talk of LENR and COLD FUSION - is spreading through the internet at the velocity of light speed. And thanks to that light - it is also showing us that our standard model is far from complete. Both of which 'truths' may rather confront the concerns of our monopolistic and exploitive energy suppliers. And regarding the 'who knows how many people want to invest in his schemes?' We've got a shrewd idea how many. I think it's numbered in those that have ordered their E-Cats. And those stats are public knowledge.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 04:46:48 PMHere is a follow-up to the thermoelectric generator story from Wikipedia:Anybody that works in technology would find that story laughable. Assuming that the 'factory' burned down like TK said, then as a result the DoD quality auditors had nowhere to go. How about them apples?
TK is yet to give us evidence of that factory that 'burned down' that also resulted in Rossi's inability to deliver anything at all to that DoD as TK politely refers to it. Therefore any 'assumption' related to this claim - is void. But don't let this lack of evidence spoil your argument MileHigh. Rather let TK provide some evidence to back this 'truth'. And then. In line with good argument which would counter any ham fisted efforts at propagandising - we'd be able to establish the 'real' truth as you refer to it. And how about 'them apples'? I'm not sure I understand this question - in any context at all. But that's probably because I'm not as young as I once was.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 04:46:48 PMI wonder how much the DoD paid for the 27 thermoelectric devices...
Indeed. And in the same way I wonder what it is that motivates this rather inappropriate slew of allegations based on nothing at all - let alone 'hearsay'.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 13, 2012, 04:46:48 PMWho said that the testing at the University of New Hampshire produced 100 watts continuously for one week? I don't know the answer to that but I would not be surprised if "Rossi said."
And I, on the other hand, wouldn't be surprised if the good people who actually engaged in that test were, in fact the one's that 'said' - as you put it. Because if Rossi alleged that the university had conducted a successful replication of results - while the 'real truth' was that the good people at the University of New Hampshire had NOT conducted a successful replication of results - then it would be more than probable that the authorities at the University of New Hampshire would have instituted an interdict against our Mr Rossi and demanded a public retraction. And guys. Please DO study that DoDdocument. There's a multiplicity of reasons why they failed. Starting with bad packaging - from the get go. Fortunately for those excellent experimentalists at New Hampshire - they had the good sense and proper motivation to ensure that their apparatus arrived unbroken. And IF they too found communication with Rossi difficult - they also and nonetheless, managed their tests notwithstanding.
Which is not intended to imply or allege that the personnel at the DoD were less competent or even less committed to the results - because that would both actionable and slanderous.
Regards,
Rosemary
And MileHigh - regarding this wiki account...
In January 2011 Andrea Rossi and Professor Sergio Focardi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Focardi) claimed to have successfully demonstrated commercially viable cold fusion in a device called an Energy Catalyzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer), although in an interview Rossi claimed that his Energy Catalyzer is not working on the basis of cold fusion, but weak [force] nuclear reactions.[11] The international patent application received an unfavorable international preliminary report on patentability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_Cooperation_Treaty#Optional_examination) because it seemed to "offend against the generally accepted laws of physics and established theories" and to overcome this problem the application should have contained either experimental evidence or a firm theoretical basis in current scientific theories.[12] Journalists were not allowed to examine the core of the reactor, and there is still uncertainty about the viability of the invention.[13]
This is yet another example of the 'downsides' to wiki - that are not equal to absolutely adequately reporting issues, in the same way that they are not equal to absolutely defining alpha emissions. Rossi did not claim that 'his energy' catalyst was NOT working on the basis of cold fusion. On the contrary. He both claimed - and is claiming - that it DOES. He drew the distinction that cold fusion required nothing more dramatic than the 'weak force'. The weak force is NOT generally associated with nuclear reactions. And that international patent that seemed to 'offend against the generally accepted laws of physics and established theories' was actually branded by Dr Vest - a 'pathological science'. Which thereby precluded ANY patents submitted under this term. Hence the birth of the new term Low Energy Nuclear Reaction. LOL. And IF there is still 'uncertainty about the viability of the invention' it is not shared by an escalating number of highly esteemed academics - headed by a Nobel Laureate.
So. On the whole I'd say that wiki 'errors' somewhat. In fact it errs all over the place.
Regards,
Rosemary
edited. A singular amendment. LOL 8)
@Everyone:
More good news on the radar! Defkalion is beginning to release details of their third party testing by reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America.
Here is an excerpt:
DGT plans to have a full working prototype ready by July 2012
One license per country will be available to potential licensees
40.5 million Euros is the license fee for a factory capable of producing 300,000 Hyperion units annually.
DGT states, “Defkalion has conducted third party tests on its core technology by internationally recognized and reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America. Today, there is solid, unambiguous evidence confirming our technology. We are at the dawn of a new era of clean, inexpensive, limitless renewable energy.â€
The article can be found at the following link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/)
When it rains good news, IT POURS!!!
GET EXCITED!!!
Chess 8)
Quote from: chessnyt on April 14, 2012, 01:03:14 AM
@Everyone:
More good news on the radar! Defkalion is beginning to release details of their third party testing by reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America.
Here is an excerpt:
DGT plans to have a full working prototype ready by July 2012
One license per country will be available to potential licensees
40.5 million Euros is the license fee for a factory capable of producing 300,000 Hyperion units annually.
DGT states, “Defkalion has conducted third party tests on its core technology by internationally recognized and reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America. Today, there is solid, unambiguous evidence confirming our technology. We are at the dawn of a new era of clean, inexpensive, limitless renewable energy.â€
The article can be found at the following link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/)
When it rains good news, IT POURS!!!
GET EXCITED!!!
Chess 8)
Chess that's indeed really, really good news. WOW. My concern - not sure that it's valid - is that this also sounds a bit 'monopolistic'. Why only 'one' producer per country. Isn't that somewhat 'agin' our monopolist concerns? In any event. The 'real truth' as MileHigh puts it - is that this is something less than 75 days from fruition. And as bad as my math is - that's the countdown to FINALLY attesting to the reality of over unity.
I'm sure that those of us who are anxious to decouple from our grid suppliers - will indeed look forward to this. And those of us who are not anxious to decouple will be excited for different reasons. Take cover guys. I think MileHigh and TK will need to post again. But there's also the thin hope that they've exhausted their arguments.
Well done Chess. As ever, you're our harbinger and angel. The bearer of glad tidings - to put a biblical 'spin' on things. LOL
kindest as ever,
Rosie
Quote from: chessnyt on April 14, 2012, 01:03:14 AM
@Everyone:
More good news on the radar! Defkalion is beginning to release details of their third party testing by reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America.
Here is an excerpt:
DGT plans to have a full working prototype ready by July 2012
One license per country will be available to potential licensees
40.5 million Euros is the license fee for a factory capable of producing 300,000 Hyperion units annually.
DGT states, “Defkalion has conducted third party tests on its core technology by internationally recognized and reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America. Today, there is solid, unambiguous evidence confirming our technology. We are at the dawn of a new era of clean, inexpensive, limitless renewable energy.â€
The article can be found at the following link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/)
When it rains good news, IT POURS!!!
GET EXCITED!!!
Chess 8)
Howdy all,
Chess just as a reminder of sorts, that lead paint can't be sold or used anymore .... that being said.
I doubt that the process of getting a UL listing ( Underwriters Laboratory ) http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/ and/or a CSA ( Canadian Standards Association ) http://www.csa.ca/cm/ca/en/home from the testing and evaluation of the device prior to any sales or installations in the United States and Canada possibly world wide.
This usually takes fourteen units of the item or device getting a listing and the money for the for the approved testing agency to give the listing for the product, this is a requirement through all insurance companies whom give coverage for anywhere the item or product can be installed like a home, business or industry without exception.
This process can take years all it takes is one failure in any area of testing for a life safety issue and it goes back to the place of manufacture for corrections and resubmitting the item again until approval, this can go on over and over again. If my memory is correct the microwave oven took over a year for the first one. The military use if any is somewhat different they can do what they want as the general public is not involved and insurance claims not usually a issue maybe some cover ups are.
A device or item not having a UL or CSA listing and is not 100% safe in all respects will never be sold or be installed without some type of testing agency certification, this is a US State and Federal law insurance company driven.
Cheers,
FuzzyTomCat
;)
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 14, 2012, 02:03:23 AM
Howdy all,
Chess just as a reminder of sorts, that lead paint can't be sold or used anymore .... that being said.
I doubt that the process of getting a UL listing ( Underwriters Laboratory ) http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/ (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/) and/or a CSA ( Canadian Standards Association ) http://www.csa.ca/cm/ca/en/home (http://www.csa.ca/cm/ca/en/home) from the testing and evaluation of the device prior to any sales or installations in the United States and Canada possibly world wide.
This usually takes fourteen units of the item or device getting a listing and the money for the for the approved testing agency to give the listing for the product, this is a requirement through all insurance companies whom give coverage for anywhere the item or product can be installed like a home, business or industry without exception.
This process can take years all it takes is one failure in any area of testing for a life safety issue and it goes back to the place of manufacture for corrections and resubmitting the item again until approval, this can go on over and over again. If my memory is correct the microwave oven took over a year for the first one. The military use if any is somewhat different they can do what they want as the general public is not involved and insurance claims not usually a issue maybe some cover ups are.
A device or item not having a UL or CSA listing and is not 100% safe in all respects will never be sold or be installed without some type of testing agency certification, this is a US State and Federal law insurance company driven.
Cheers,
FuzzyTomCat
;)
Howdy fellow experimentalist and members and readers here whom are may be interested.
With the utmost respect to this post - there is nothing in the whole wide world to stop me or you or anyone at all from designing a new generator and selling it - that boasts a greater efficiency than is available on the market. In the unlikely event that the generator is shown to emit gamma rays then it would need considerable safety requirements. Failing which, it would need to be built in line with existing acceptable safety standards. And the Defkalion group and Rossi et al - would need to be considerably less than competent if they were promoting something that emits gamma rays without the required safety. Fortunately they don't have those toxic emissions. Therefore there are no undue licensing procedures anywhere - globally - or locally.
Rosie Pose
added
;) :) 8) :o
Howdy members and guests,
From what I understand this device is a "Fuel Cell" there is testing in the United States for a certification of compliance required for a permitted or licensed installation.
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/ ( Fuel Cells )
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/requirements/ ( Sample and Information Requirements )
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/tests/ ( Tests conducted )
This is why I said that a device or item not having a UL or CSA listing and is not 100% safe in all respects will never be sold or be installed without some type of testing agency certification, this is a US State and Federal law insurance company driven.
The only option is to do it your self, without any installation permits or certifications and if something happens like a fire, toxic fluid spill, electrocution or death .... your insurance coverage you have will not cover the damages because of no installation permits or certification of compliance of the device or item that caused the type of problematic failure or death. This is in your insurance policy and believe me insurance companies do not want to pay out claims and will find any reason not to .... including their fine print you don't read.
I did my legal requirement to inform the required .... from this point, do what you want it's not my problem now. ???
Cheers,
FuzzyTomCat
;)
Howdy indeed. And howdy howdy howdy to all.
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 14, 2012, 03:22:40 AM
Howdy members and guests,
From what I understand this device is a "Fuel Cell" there is testing in the United States for a certification of compliance required for a permitted or licensed installation.
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/ (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/) ( Fuel Cells )
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/requirements/ (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/requirements/) ( Sample and Information Requirements )
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/tests/ (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/alternative/fuelcells/tests/) ( Tests conducted )
This is why I said that a device or item not having a UL or CSA listing and is not 100% safe in all respects will never be sold or be installed without some type of testing agency certification, this is a US State and Federal law insurance company driven.
The only option is to do it your self, without any installation permits or certifications and if something happens like a fire, toxic fluid spill, electrocution or death .... your insurance coverage you have will not cover the damages because of no installation permits or certification of compliance of the device or item that caused the type of problematic failure or death. This is in your insurance policy and believe me insurance companies do not want to pay out claims and will find any reason not to .... including their fine print you don't read.
I did my legal requirement to inform the required .... from this point, do what you want it's not my problem now. ???
Cheers,
FuzzyTomCat
;)
Again. With the utmost respect to this poster - it is clear from the links provided that the safety requirements related to fuel cells are clearly defined. And indeed, it is NOT your problem - with respect. The onus is on those producing that cell to comply to the required specifications. And I'd put my money on it that they've done that much. But if you DO have any residual concerns - perhaps you'd like to write to Rossi and to those at Defkalion and advise them to comply. In the unlikely event that they've overlooked such an elementary requirement.
Kindest regards,
Rosie Pose
Again. With utmost respect to the poster.
Ainslie said,
QuoteTK is yet to give us evidence of that factory that 'burned down' that also resulted in Rossi's inability to deliver anything at all to that DoD as TK politely refers to it. Therefore any 'assumption' related to this claim - is void. But don't let this lack of evidence spoil your argument MileHigh. Rather let TK provide some evidence to back this 'truth'. And then. In line with good argument which would counter any ham fisted efforts at propagandising - we'd be able to establish the 'real' truth as you refer to it. And how about 'them apples'? I'm not sure I understand this question - in any context at all. But that's probably because I'm not as young as I once was.
And Ainslie said,
QuotePlease DO study the DoD document.
The fire and the reason that Rossi couldn't deliver anything at all to the DoD..... is mentioned at the top of Page 6 in the DoD report. How about them apples?
Isn't it interesting that RA questions the competency of the Army research team that did this work, but accepts without question the "tests" that Rossi has so far performed on the ECat?
It doesn't matter who you are, what government agencies are funding your work, how competently you report it, or how good your laboratory is.... if you disagree with RA about anything, you are wrong, and the DoD let slip through their fingers a revolutionary new power converter. QED.
(Which Ross still hasn't been able to build again, to this day--- or he would most certainly be using it in conjunction with the copious hot air and steam flowing from his ECats.)
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 14, 2012, 02:03:23 AM
Howdy all,
Chess just as a reminder of sorts, that lead paint can't be sold or used anymore .... that being said.
I doubt that the process of getting a UL listing ( Underwriters Laboratory ) http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/ (http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/) and/or a CSA ( Canadian Standards Association ) http://www.csa.ca/cm/ca/en/home (http://www.csa.ca/cm/ca/en/home) from the testing and evaluation of the device prior to any sales or installations in the United States and Canada possibly world wide.
This usually takes fourteen units of the item or device getting a listing and the money for the for the approved testing agency to give the listing for the product, this is a requirement through all insurance companies whom give coverage for anywhere the item or product can be installed like a home, business or industry without exception.
This process can take years all it takes is one failure in any area of testing for a life safety issue and it goes back to the place of manufacture for corrections and resubmitting the item again until approval, this can go on over and over again. If my memory is correct the microwave oven took over a year for the first one. The military use if any is somewhat different they can do what they want as the general public is not involved and insurance claims not usually a issue maybe some cover ups are.
A device or item not having a UL or CSA listing and is not 100% safe in all respects will never be sold or be installed without some type of testing agency certification, this is a US State and Federal law insurance company driven.
Cheers,
FuzzyTomCat
;)
@fuzzytomcat:
I appreciate and thank you for your constructive input into this discussion. The certification process is one area Andrea Rossi has been diligently working on personally to expedite (if possible) the UL's timely approval. If you care to read back through the thread, you will learn that this topic was originally addressed by Andrea Rossi some time ago. This having been said, you can understand that Rossi has not overlooked this obstacle from the onset.
This is what Andrea Rossi has to say about the UL certification status today:
"The certification process is going on. By the way, yesterday I spent all the day with the certification engineers and we made substantial progress. In this very moment I am working at my desk to make the paper work they asked me yesterday. It will take all today (Saturday) and tomorrow (Sunday), just to give you an idea of our endeavours on this issue." --Andrea Rossi
Regards,
Chess
Rosemary:
QuoteChess that's indeed really, really good news. WOW. My concern - not sure that it's valid - is that this also sounds a bit 'monopolistic'. Why only 'one' producer per country. Isn't that somewhat 'agin' our monopolist concerns? In any event. The 'real truth' as MileHigh puts it - is that this is something less than 75 days from fruition. And as bad as my math is - that's the countdown to FINALLY attesting to the reality of over unity.
So what am I implying by the term "real truth?" The implication is that what one perceives to be the truth is not necessarily the truth. You perceive through the window of your own preconceptions, ignorance, and prejudice. Who is anyone to say what the "truth" is if they are not fully informed? That problem runs rampant on the free energy forums.
You say, "FINALLY attesting to the reality of over unity" because you think that's a true statement. But the "real truth" is that this stuff has never ever been pitched as over unity. This is supposed to be a system that runs on nuclear power, and that by definition is not over unity. So what you are counting down to is something that is supposed to be attesting to the reality of low energy nuclear reactions that are burning nuclear fuel. Mass is being converted into energy, E = Mc^2.
From what I gather, one day Rossi talks about it being an LENR fusion process, and on another day he says it's related to the weak force. But I think he says the output is basically copper and gamma rays and that's nuclear fusion by definition.
It is not over unity or free energy."One producer per country" also sounds overly simplistic and suspicious. It just doesn't make any business sense. And like I have said before, the whole concept of a "home" E-Cat doesn't even make any sense. How can you actually use an E-Cat in your home? If you live in a warm climate - then what? You have a nuclear reactor in your home to take your hot showers in the morning and provide hot water for your sink and dishwasher? That's it??? If you live in a more temperate climate then you can use it to heat your house in winter time I suppose.
It just doesn't jive when there are thousands of industrial customers that would love to have a cheap source of heat for industrial applications running 24/7. Is Rossi talking about this? Apparently not so I don't know what gives. It all just doesn't smell right.
What are you expecting to happen in 75 days Rosemary? I am asking you this question seriously. Do you think you will be able to go to a web site and look at E-Cats that you can install into your basement to replace the water heater and furnace? What? What do you think will be launched in 75 days? Same questions for all of you.
More importantly, what would you say if nothing is launched in 75 days? No web sites, no products, no nothing. It may be a hypothetical question, but in my personal opinion that's were we will be 75 days from now. We will have more quotes from Rossi and not much more than that.
I would be thrilled if I was wrong about this whole Rossi deal, but I am trying to be as realistic as possible.
Here is a thought experiment for all of you: How do you think a young couple with three very young children is going to react if you ask them if they want to put a nuclear reactor in their basement for their hot water? I have a feeling that you are going to get some push back no matter how many times you try to reassure them that it is safe.
This thread should be interesting 75 days from now for sure.
MileHigh
Chess:
Quote"The certification process is going on. By the way, yesterday I spent all the day with the certification engineers and we made substantial progress. In this very moment I am working at my desk to make the paper work they asked me yesterday. It will take all today (Saturday) and tomorrow (Sunday), just to give you an idea of our endeavours on this issue." --Andrea Rossi
I am going to assume that Rossi is talking about the certification process for a "home" E-Cat to be produced on a production line in high volume. If that is indeed the case then there are some things to ponder.
It would seem to imply that he has real working samples from a pilot run of E-Cats that were built on a production line and submitted to UL. But the problem is that there is no apparent footprint in the news media about a factory or about a team of design and production engineers that have built prototypes and then built pilot units on the production line. I would love to see the FMEA analysis report that he submitted to UL for those babies!
If Rossi was saying this after 1 1/2 years of ongoing work at a real bricks and mortar production plant and we saw pictures of him over the months with his engineering staff in online magazines and if we read about the purchases of production line robots in press releases from the various suppliers of robotic technology, etc, etc, - then it would all sound
REAL.
But without all of that happening ahead of time, then the quote from Rossi is just more "Rossi says." It doesn't smell right at all.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PM
"One producer per country" also sounds overly simplistic and suspicious. It just doesn't make any business sense. And like I have said before, the whole concept of a "home" E-Cat doesn't even make any sense. How can you actually use an E-Cat in your home? If you live in a warm climate - then what? You have a nuclear reactor in your home to take your hot showers in the morning and provide hot water for your sink and dishwasher? That's it??? If you live in a more temperate climate then you can use it to heat your house in winter time I suppose.
That was a Defkalion statement regarding licensing of THEIR products which they have not specified as of yet. In any event, this would only apply to Defkalion's products and not Rossi's necessarily. So this is Defkalion's statement and NOT Rossi's.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PM
It just doesn't jive when there are thousands of industrial customers that would love to have a cheap source of heat for industrial applications running 24/7. Is Rossi talking about this? Apparently not so I don't know what gives. It all just doesn't smell right.
Rossi IS CERTAINLY talking about this. Here's what Rossi has stated:
"I want to add that we are setting up a division to produce and sell thermal energy, in future electric energy. We are in contact with Companies selling thermal energy to put our plants adjacent to their network to produce energy, inject it in their grid." --Andrea Rossi
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on April 14, 2012, 06:03:14 PM
@fuzzytomcat:
I appreciate and thank you for your constructive input into this discussion. The certification process is one area Andrea Rossi has been diligently working on personally to expedite (if possible) the UL's timely approval. If you care to read back through the thread, you will learn that this topic was originally addressed by Andrea Rossi some time ago. This having been said, you can understand that Rossi has not overlooked this obstacle from the onset.
This is what Andrea Rossi has to say about the UL certification status today:
"The certification process is going on. By the way, yesterday I spent all the day with the certification engineers and we made substantial progress. In this very moment I am working at my desk to make the paper work they asked me yesterday. It will take all today (Saturday) and tomorrow (Sunday), just to give you an idea of our endeavours on this issue." --Andrea Rossi
Regards,
Chess
@ Chess
The news of the start of the Certification process is interesting as you know the device or item wanting a Certification from a testing agency is looking not if the product works but looks at the "as advertized" item or device for its complete safety during operation in this instance "full load" of the device under test. This would mean if the Certification process is being done that there is functional product that could be tested and the inventor is documenting the devices full operation disclosure to UL ( Underwriters Laboratory ) so they know what to expect or scope the of device for the proper type of testing and evaluation for the model or each model that will be sold to get its UL Certification Listing.
This is a long and expensive process to only guarantee the item or device is "safe" for use for the consumer the last step to Walmart !! ;)
Cheers,
Fuzzy
:)
Chess:
Thanks for correcting my mix-up between Defkalion and Rossi for the licensing issue. Glad to hear Rossi is stating that he is looking at industrial heating applications. I think that is the killer application. There are still issues with credibility there again though, because his choice of words there don't sound right at all to me. If you read between the lines I believe that it's telling you that he knows very little about the industrial heating market and what it's looking for. For example, this line, "put our plants adjacent to their network to produce (thermal) energy, inject it in their (thermal) grid." I have never heard of a "heat grid" or a "thermal grid" in my life. Of course I am not versed in this stuff myself. All the same, this time I am not going to give Rossi the benefit of the doubt because English is not his native tongue in this case. I am going to assume that he was just winging it and came up with that obtuse terminology on the spot.
Think about this: Suppose you run an asphalt plant that produces asphalt in a near-continuous process. In three steps in the process you need massive amounts of heat to create the asphalt and then keep the asphalt warm. So, you could perhaps use electric heaters or natural gas heaters, or you could use an industrial E-Cat. Each of the three systems will require a certain type of heat exchanger to provide the proper type of heat to the three steps in the asphalt manufacturing process. Can an industrial E-Cat do that for less dollars per year than electricity or natural gas? That's the real issue.
MileHigh
P.S.: Sorry there is an invisible control character making the text bold.
Ok guys,
I'm still concerned. Here's why. If Rossi supplements our grid suppliers then we'll still be doing business with our grid monopolists. And they, traditionally, have not been known to keep a trim pencil. And if Defkalion nominate one supplier per country - then we'll not be shot of our monopolists. The nightmare scenario is this. They replace our nuclear reactors with cold fusion and maintain their monopolistic interests and supplies via traditional and existing infrastructures. Which leaves us precisely where we are - but without any excuse to complain about the continued abuses to our poor Mother Earth's requirement for less carbon dioxide.
Then I see the cover up. Nickel becomes less readily available. The understandings related to cold fusion are lost in the explanations that are related to sundry patents and they remain obtuse - less than explicit. Cold fusion is classified 'dangerous' and the public are precluded from implementing their own 'home grown' versions. Proof of gamma ray toxicity will be leaked out - and we, the public, will be warned against 'playing' with this. Warned against researching it in any way at all. Then Rossi will be further discredited - his reputation so easily associated as it is with insinuations of prior criminal convictions (already hinted at here) and his patents systematically 'taken over' by our Governments - under the banner of the best interests of the public good. Then we'll be left PRECISELY where we are. Which is the second most exploitable commodity after cold fusion. Because we'll not be able to rid ourselves of all that VESTED INTEREST and we'll be dancing to their tune at a fee structuring that is less than palatable.
And those of us who can still afford it will buy our generators to heat our homes - or fill our baths - at a price that is only fractionally more competitive than our grid supplier - who does nothing to adjust his costs downwards - notwithstanding the gross reduction to his costs of production. And all this enabled through the artifice of insinuation and through the naive hopes that someone - somewhere - will take care of our best interests. Frankly - as things are trending - I already see the confusions that results from the lack of understanding even as it relates to the science behind this. Look at MileHigh's concerns related to the definition of emissions. Look at TK's concerns related to the Rossi's character and integrity. Look at other posters' concerns related to the licensing. It is setting the stage for compliance and dependance on the opinions and allegations. And that's not how science works. The more so - when the actual challenge is that we all need to become our own experts that we can make use of this energy either through our own home grown versions - or through the more creative application of all that steam that the E-cat can give us to power our own generators. Because that is the only way that we can get rid of any further monopolistic control. And for me personally, anything short of that is absolutely NOT enough.
Guys. I believe, sincerely, that the only way to protect our own bests interests is to ensure - that as a body - we are able to orchestrate some kind of effective voice to insist that the technology is NOT dangerous when there are implications made that they are CHALLENGED. And that we are able to exercise our full rights to apply what we buy as we require it. Which means that we can modify applications to run those generators which should be feasible.
Which is my tuppence worth.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 09:10:07 PM
Chess:
Think about this: Suppose you run an asphalt plant that produces asphalt in a near-continuous process. In three steps in the process you need massive amounts of heat to create the asphalt and then keep the asphalt warm. So, you could perhaps use electric heaters or natural gas heaters, or you could use an industrial E-Cat. Each of the three systems will require a certain type of heat exchanger to provide the proper type of heat to the three steps in the asphalt manufacturing process. Can an industrial E-Cat do that for less dollars per year than electricity or natural gas? That's the real issue.
MileHigh
P.S.: Sorry there is an invisible control character making the text bold.
MileHigh. According to the evidence it should be possible to asphalt our roads at about 6 times less the cost of current production fees. Which I think is significant.
Regards,
Rosemary
- I think we all know something about that 'BOLD' control. Someone should tell Harti.
QuoteThink about this: Suppose you run an asphalt plant that produces asphalt in a near-continuous process. In three steps in the process you need massive amounts of heat to create the asphalt and then keep the asphalt warm. So, you could perhaps use electric heaters or natural gas heaters, or you could use an industrial E-Cat. Each of the three systems will require a certain type of heat exchanger to provide the proper type of heat to the three steps in the asphalt manufacturing process. Can an industrial E-Cat do that for less dollars per year than electricity or natural gas? That's the real issue.
MileHigh
P.S.: Sorry there is an invisible control character making the text bold.
All you have to do is highlight the text you want "unbolded" and press the button second from the right, just above the smileys.
TK:
Yes I tried the "remove formatting" button in the previous posting with no success. I had problems trying to highlight characters within the quoted text below so I deselected the bold formatting for everything. It seems to only work outside of quoted text.
Rosemary:
QuoteGuys. I believe, sincerely, that the only way to protect our own bests interests is to ensure - that as a body - we are able to orchestrate some kind of effective voice to insist that the technology is NOT dangerous when there are implications made that they are CHALLENGED.
The simple truth is that we are in a holding pattern about the relative danger of the final product. We just don't have enough information to state one way or the other. This is a situation where you want to err on the side of caution and the good news is that you can expect that the UL processes in place will work. (If that really is being done.)
This is a quote from a document posted about two weeks ago:
QuoteThe E-cat was then put in self sustained mode for almost four hours,
showing no measurable signs of weakening.
After three hours and a half, output temperature inside the E-cat was
stable about 114 degrees centigrade, and water could be felt boiling
putting a hand on top of it. The external temperature was between 60 and
85 degrees centigrade.
At the end of the test, the heat production was slowed down by
eliminating hydrogen pressure and increasing the water flow from the
peristaltic pump through the E-cat.
What I was trying to highlight was "
and water could be felt boiling putting a hand on top of it." Alarm bells went off in my head the first time I read that. That means that the water flow rate through the reactor was not high enough and/or the reaction was "spikey" in heat production such that spontaneous boiling was happening where the heat was being produced. The author of the text is in totally ignorant bliss but there was nothing to be blissful about in this situation.
What does it mean if there is some spontaneous boiling of water inside the reactor? It means that where there is supposed to be a continuous flow of water drawing away the excess heat from the reactor, there was steam. And that means that all of a sudden you lose the ability to draw away the excess heat production because the steam is acting like an insulating layer. That could be
EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and the reactor could fail and have an internal meltdown.
I also read statements somewhere about Rossi having problems controlling the reaction.
So all of you Rossi supporters need to take off your rose-coloured glasses and realize that if this technology is real, like any other technology there will be advantages and disadvantages associated with it. This is not a hippie romp in a field collecting flowers where everything is benign and all is bliss and nobody can do any wrong. This business about copying the reactor design and making your own "home-brew fusion reactor" is completely ridiculous talk considering the amount of information that you have at your disposal.
MileHigh
Rosemary:
QuoteMileHigh. According to the evidence it should be possible to asphalt our roads at about 6 times less the cost of current production fees. Which I think is significant.
I think what you really mean is that the energy costs for producing the heat for those parts of the process that require bulk heat will decrease. We still haven't factored in the capital costs of the reactor and installation and which might be amortized over 25 years. Then there will be ongoing maintenance and fuel costs also. These things all typically boil down to a return on investment (ROI) calculation.
I notice that you didn't acknowledge that this whole concept is not free energy, it's atomic energy (allegedly). You have to start learning to acknowledge your mistakes Rosemary because that should be part and parcel of your upcoming thread as the debate progresses. If you don't do that, just like anyone in the debate should do the same if they are wrong, then you will start to inject toxicity into the debate. That could easily blow up and you don't want that to happen.
MileHigh
Quote from: chessnyt on April 14, 2012, 01:03:14 AM
@Everyone:
More good news on the radar! Defkalion is beginning to release details of their third party testing by reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America.
Here is an excerpt:
DGT plans to have a full working prototype ready by July 2012
One license per country will be available to potential licensees
40.5 million Euros is the license fee for a factory capable of producing 300,000 Hyperion units annually.
DGT states, “Defkalion has conducted third party tests on its core technology by internationally recognized and reputable private and public organizations from Europe and America. Today, there is solid, unambiguous evidence confirming our technology. We are at the dawn of a new era of clean, inexpensive, limitless renewable energy.â€
The article can be found at the following link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/defkalion-green-technologies-communicates-with-interested-parties/)
When it rains good news, IT POURS!!!
GET EXCITED!!!
Chess 8)
Hi chess some more good news.
Regards Dave :D
http://www.e-catworld.com/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/)
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 11:35:37 AM
What I was trying to highlight was "and water could be felt boiling putting a hand on top of it." Alarm bells went off in my head the first time I read that. That means that the water flow rate through the reactor was not high enough and/or the reaction was "spikey" in heat production such that spontaneous boiling was happening where the heat was being produced. The author of the text is in totally ignorant bliss but there was nothing to be blissful about in this situation.
What does it mean if there is some spontaneous boiling of water inside the reactor? It means that where there is supposed to be a continuous flow of water drawing away the excess heat from the reactor, there was steam. And that means that all of a sudden you lose the ability to draw away the excess heat production because the steam is acting like an insulating layer. That could be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and the reactor could fail and have an internal meltdown.
I also read statements somewhere about Rossi having problems controlling the reaction.
So all of you Rossi supporters need to take off your rose-coloured glasses and realize that if this technology is real, like any other technology there will be advantages and disadvantages associated with it. This is not a hippie romp in a field collecting flowers where everything is benign and all is bliss and nobody can do any wrong. This business about copying the reactor design and making your own "home-brew fusion reactor" is completely ridiculous talk considering the amount of information that you have at your disposal.
MileHigh
MileHigh:
Your statement only tells me that you do not fully understand the operation of the reactions requirements! It is indeed necessary to have some area inside the reactor at very high temperatures to maintain the reaction because if you cool the core too well the reaction will stop.
The process requires the temperature of the nickel to be within a window to maintain the reaction where if it's too cold the reaction slows and stops and if too hot the nickel melts and the reaction stops.
If you could think more along the lines of a red hot steel bar with a flame heating one end and the other end in water to try to keep it cool. If the hot end gets too hot it would start to melt but you could prevent this by submersing more of the bar, and if the hot end gets too cool you could raise more of the bar out of the water.
The words "EXTREMELY DANGEROUS" is your fear of the unknown! Possibly the worst condition is if the water flow stops and the core overheats and before it melts down and stops the water pressure increases and the unit explodes! This is about the same danger as your current HOT WATER HEATER with the pop-off valve to prevent this problem.
So if you were to take off your dark shades of fear, I suppose you could see the real danger/process for what it is.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMSo what am I implying by the term "real truth?" The implication is that what one perceives to be the truth is not necessarily the truth. You perceive through the window of your own preconceptions, ignorance, and prejudice. Who is anyone to say what the "truth" is if they are not fully informed? That problem runs rampant on the free energy forums.
Are you talking about preconceptions, ignorance and prejudice generally or to your own - specifically? It is courtesy the hard efforts of our members here who keep up as fully informed on the E-Cat development as far as is humanly possible - that we do not comment from a position of ignorance. And since the reports are factual then comments are not based on ignorance. And any prejudice would only be reflected in one's reluctance to accept the facts of those reports.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMYou say, "FINALLY attesting to the reality of over unity" because you think that's a true statement. But the "real truth" is that this stuff has never ever been pitched as over unity. This is supposed to be a system that runs on nuclear power, and that by definition is not over unity. So what you are counting down to is something that is supposed to be attesting to the reality of low energy nuclear reactions that are burning nuclear fuel. Mass is being converted into energy, E = Mc^2.
MileHigh - according to mainstream - there is no such thing as a nuclear reaction that can take place with the input or output of 'low energy'. If mainstream are wrong then the implications that are related to this cold fusion reaction are far, far more significant than the simple application of this energy as it relates to exploiting its heat signatures. It would defy the 1st, 2nd and 3rd laws of Thermodynamics. For starters. And, while no-one in their right mind would doubt that E=Mc^2, the actual question is what is that 'E'? That Energy? If it is not, in fact, nuclear? So. There is no ignorance that is related to this question that is not shared by the entire body of mainstream physics as none of us have the answer. And any prejudice or preconceptions can only be related to 'belief' in the claims related to this science where the facts or the evidence or the 'real truth' as you put it - are discounted on the basis of probability or preconception. Which, as I keep saying - is not science. Science first deals with the evidence. And I'm not sure that those of us who have accepted the reality of cold fusion or LENR are therefore guilty. We would only be guilty if we denied the evidence in the first place.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMFrom what I gather, one day Rossi talks about it being an LENR fusion process, and on another day he says it's related to the weak force. But I think he says the output is basically copper and gamma rays and that's nuclear fusion by definition. It is not over unity or free energy.
Indeed it IS over unity. Until there's some viable explanation in terms of standard physics. Or unless standard physics itself needs revising.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PM"One producer per country" also sounds overly simplistic and suspicious. It just doesn't make any business sense.
Then what kind of a business man are you? If I wanted to get the maximum value for the franchise right to produce a highly salable commodity - then I'd promise national exclusivity. Because without competition that franchisee will be able to gear his price to the highest possible threshold without any risks of needing to compete against anything at all. Which is most desirable position to find oneself - if one were a businessman as you put it. Which is precisely how our monopolists are able to exploit their best advantage. And - historically - the evidence is that they do. To an alarming extent. In fact. They do it to the point where the most of us users are put in a stranglehold of perpetual and comparative impoverishment. Simply to use a product which is essential to their lives. In fact their production and expansion costs are that onerous that they fall beholden to our children and our children's children. In SA it will take up to two generations to recover the costs of their proposed nuclear expansion. Energy is not something we can do without - be it nuclear or electric or anything at all. And the rampant greed of those energy producers has been promoted with a level of self interest at the expense of the wider public good.
Regards,
Rosemary
edited
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMAnd like I have said before, the whole concept of a "home" E-Cat doesn't even make any sense. How can you actually use an E-Cat in your home? If you live in a warm climate - then what? You have a nuclear reactor in your home to take your hot showers in the morning and provide hot water for your sink and dishwasher? That's it??? If you live in a more temperate climate then you can use it to heat your house in winter time I suppose.
That depends on the licensing that Rossi gets. What we're questioning is the inviolate right of ownership over any commodity that we, the public, buy. Because there are those bright contributors here who see it as more than feasible to extend the 'use' of those generators beyond the simple need to heat bath water or to heat a few radiators around the house.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMIt does not jive when there are thousands of industrial customers that would love to have a cheap source of heat for industrial applications running 24/7. Is Rossi talking about this? Apparently not so I don't know what gives. It all just doesn't smell right.
Which brings me back to that question that you asked. Who is operating from a position of ignorance, prejudice or preconception? Rossi is most certainly talking about running industrial application 24/7. He's talking to our grid suppliers for starters. And he's already built the first heavy duty example of this. That's certainly NOT confined to the limited household usage that you're proposing.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMWhat are you expecting to happen in 75 days Rosemary? I am asking you this question seriously. Do you think you will be able to go to a web site and look at E-Cats that you can install into your basement to replace the water heater and furnace? What? What do you think will be launched in 75 days? Same questions for all of you.
Yes. And yes. And yes.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMMore importantly, what would you say if nothing is launched in 75 days? No web sites, no products, no nothing. It may be a hypothetical question, but in my personal opinion that's were we will be 75 days from now. We will have more quotes from Rossi and not much more than that.
Actually it's NOT Rossi who's undertaking delivery in 75 days. That's Defkalion.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 14, 2012, 06:52:49 PMI would be thrilled if I was wrong about this whole Rossi deal, but I am trying to be as realistic as possible.Here is a thought experiment for all of you: How do you think a young couple with three very young children is going to react if you ask them if they want to put a nuclear reactor in their basement for their hot water? I have a feeling that you are going to get some push back no matter how many times you try to reassure them that it is safe.
I hope that there's no-one that ignorant or that prejudiced that they also preconceive that Rossi or Defkalion are offering a nuclear reactor. God forbid.
Rosemary
Lumen:
QuoteThe words "EXTREMELY DANGEROUS" is your fear of the unknown!
My impression is that you are simply overly optimistic. I have a reasonable grasp of control systems. The fact that that demo unit had steam bubbles in it shows that it was was pretty amateurish demo and the unit was not working properly. I don't get a sense that you are very technical or are on top of all of the technical aspects of these systems. Or perhaps that would be better stated as being on top of what Rossi and Defkalion have claimed about the technical aspects of these systems.
It's not that I have "danger shades of fear" on, the problem is that you have glazed eyes looking though rose-coloured glasses on, and that is very dangerous indeed. I don't believe for one second that you are qualified to pass judgement on if these systems are dangerous or not. All that I think you are doing is parroting all of the optimistic stuff that you have read online on all of the Rossi/Defkalon fan web sites.
Sorry, that's not good enough for me. You know the original argument for hot fusion being safe is that if you have a problem then you by definition remove the conditions for hot fusion and the reaction stops. It sounds to me like the cold fusion proponents have borrowed that idea and adopted it for themselves. However, there is a problem. The whole concept behind cold fusion is that you have "lowered the bar" and now fusion can take place at much lower temperatures. Therefore the implication is that there is now risk associated with cold fusion because the reaction doesn't necessarily just stop by definition like it does for hot fusion.
If you are standing by a gasoline engine and steam bubbles start forming in the water jacket around the cylinders then it is extremely dangerous for the engine. Without proper heat removal within a certain amount of time the engine will overheat and fail. Same thing for the demo unit, it was operating on the edge of a failure as far as I am concerned. That was totally unacceptable. I don't know if it would have been dangerous or not, and neither do you. Hypothetically, you can imagine the lead lining designed to absorb the gamma rays melting and a person standing next to the unit could get a lethal dose of gamma rays. I have no idea if that is plausible, nor do you.
No matter how many times you want to pretend that "everything is cool and it's impossible for there to be any danger" you are still talking about a device that is supposed to produce high-level gamma radiation. As far as I am concerned at this point in time, nobody knows anything about the dangers. All that we have are "Rossi says" and "Defkalion says" and that's not good enough for me.
MileHigh
Rosemary:
Quotethat we do not comment from a position of ignorance
Right now everyone is commenting from a position of ignorance. And there is still no independently verified proof that Rossi or Defkalion has something that actually works. Supposedly the July demo system that will be shown by Defkalion will change that and we will get independent verification. I'm not holding my breath.
QuoteIt would defy the 1st, 2nd and 3rd laws of Thermodynamics.
You are totally wrong Rosemary. The premise is that hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber will somehow fuse at a certain fusion rate to produce copper and gamma rays. The people that are promoting these systems are not denying that the ultimate source of the energy is E=Mc^2 nuclear fusion. However, what they are saying is how that they are getting there is the interesting part that they can't fully explain. Somehow they can put hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber and produce nuclear fusion.
So the source of the energy is conventional nuclear fusion energy, but the path to arrive at the fusion itself is unconventional and not fully understood. So you are off in La-La Land. No laws of thermodynamics are being defied. One more time you are perceiving this through the window of your own preconceptions, ignorance, and prejudice.
That is the whole reason that cold fusion or LENR is a subject that has attracted interest, there is at least a plausible source of energy to tap into. There is no "new magic source of energy from nowhere where all rules are off the table" like you are implying. Science knows that if you have fusion then energy will be released.
So this is NOT FREE ENERGY and you have to get with the program. The title of this thread is wrong.
QuoteThen what kind of a business man are you?
I would recognize that the United States has such a huge GDP that I would slice it up into separate territories.
The "buy in" of 40.5 million Euros also sounds ridiculous. It sounds like buying a "distributorship" from Dennis Lee. Licensing doesn't normally work like that. You normally pay your licensing fee per unit to the holder of the license as you sell product. It is highly suspicious.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:15:26 PM
If you are standing by a gasoline engine and steam bubbles start forming in the water jacket around the cylinders then it is extremely dangerous for the engine. Without proper heat removal within a certain amount of time the engine will overheat and fail. Same thing for the demo unit, it was operating on the edge of a failure as far as I am concerned. That was totally unacceptable. I don't know if it would have been dangerous or not, and neither do you. Hypothetically, you can imagine the lead lining designed to absorb the gamma rays melting and a person standing next to the unit could get a lethal dose of gamma rays. I have no idea if that is plausible, nor do you.
No matter how many times you want to pretend that "everything is cool and it's impossible for there to be any danger" you are still talking about a device that is supposed to produce high-level gamma radiation. As far as I am concerned at this point in time, nobody knows anything about the dangers. All that we have are "Rossi says" and "Defkalion says" and that's not good enough for me.
MileHigh
MileHigh you are wrong. The device DOES NOT produce 'high-level gamma radiation'. There is NO gamma emission. Your argument is therefore void. Entirely so.
Rosemary
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PM
Right now everyone is commenting from a position of ignorance. And there is still no independently verified proof that Rossi or Defkalion has something that actually works.
This is true...provided only we ignore the accreditation of highly skilled academics and expert authorities.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMYou are totally wrong Rosemary. The premise is that hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber will somehow fuse at a certain fusion rate to produce copper and gamma rays. The people that are promoting these systems are not denying that the ultimate source of the energy is E=Mc^2 nuclear fusion. However, what they are saying is how that they are getting there is the interesting part that they can't fully explain. Somehow they can put hydrogen and nickel in a heated chamber and produce nuclear fusion.
This is true...provided that we pretend that there are any gamma ray emissions AT ALL.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMSo the source of the energy is conventional nuclear fusion energy,
This is true...provided that we pretend that a nuclear reaction can result in no gamma ray emissions.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMbut the path to arrive at the fusion itself is unconventional and not fully understood. So you are off in La-La Land. No laws of thermodynamics are being defied. One more time you are perceiving this through the window of your own preconceptions, ignorance, and prejudice.
This is true...provided that there is anything at all that's conventional about cold fusion.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMThat is the whole reason that cold fusion or LENR is a subject that has attracted interest, there is at least a plausible source of energy to tap into. There is no "new magic source of energy from nowhere where all rules are off the table" like you are implying. Science knows that if you have fusion then energy will be released.
This is true...in as much as a double negative makes a positive. Therefore There is a new magic source of energy.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMSo this is NOT FREE ENERGY and you have to get with the program. The title of this thread is wrong.
This is true if the thread promoter was not allowed license to use hyperbole.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 06:53:27 PMThe "buy in" of 40.5 million Euros also sounds ridiculous. It sounds like buying a "distributorship" from Dennis Lee. Licensing doesn't normally work like that. You normally pay your licensing fee per unit to the holder of the license as you sell product. It is highly suspicious.
True or not...I agree with you. It's way too expensive.
Rosemary
Rosemary:
QuoteMileHigh you are wrong. The device DOES NOT produce 'high-level gamma radiation'. There is NO gamma emission. Your argument is therefore void. Entirely so.
You are un-farking-believable sometimes Rosemary.
http://oilprice.com/Interviews/The-Limitless-Potential-of-the-E-Cat-An-Interview-with-Andrea-Rossi.html
Thu, 29 March 2012 13:54QuoteOilprice.com: What exactly is the E-Cat and how does it work?
Andrea Rossi: The E-Cat machine is basically a heater. It uses a secret catalyser to fuse hydrogen and nickel together to form copper. Copper has a lower energy state than Nickel, and the excess energy is released in the form of a gamma ray. The gamma ray hits a wall of lead where it is absorbed and transformed into heat. The whole process is incredibly efficient and can heat any fluid that passes through the machine.
By your own logic, everything that you have said is void. Entirely so.
So Rosemary,
are you going to come back and post here and admit that you were wrong?MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 07:11:00 PM
Rosemary:
You are un-farking-believable sometimes Rosemary.
http://oilprice.com/Interviews/The-Limitless-Potential-of-the-E-Cat-An-Interview-with-Andrea-Rossi.html (http://oilprice.com/Interviews/The-Limitless-Potential-of-the-E-Cat-An-Interview-with-Andrea-Rossi.html)
Thu, 29 March 2012 13:54
By your own logic, everything that you have said is void. Entirely so.
So Rosemary, are you going to come back and post here and admit that you were wrong?
MileHigh
Gamma ray emissions cannot - by definition - by absorbed by such thin protections. Therefore it cannot be gamma rays. But what is true is that gamma ray emission is associated with a nuclear reaction. The question is what exactly is being emitted. And that has most certainly NOT been resolved. Unless gamma rays are now associated with energies that have heretofore be entirely unpredicted.
I'm well aware of Rossi's reference to gamma ray emission. But no-one has found any. Therefore the question is still moot.
Regards MileHigh,
Rosemary
Andrea Rossi: The E-Cat machine is basically a heater. It uses a secret catalyser to fuse hydrogen and nickel together to form copper. Copper has a lower energy state than Nickel, and the excess energy is released in the form of a gamma ray. The gamma ray hits a wall of lead where it is absorbed and transformed into heat. The whole process is incredibly efficient and can heat any fluid that passes through the machine.
MileHigh
Here's a link
http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/preparedness/radiation/facts.aspx (http://www.kingcounty.gov/healthservices/health/preparedness/radiation/facts.aspx)
and here's what it says
Gamma rays are the most penetrating of these three types of radiation. Gamma rays will penetrate paper, skin, wood, and other substances. Like alpha and beta particles, they are also harmful if inhaled, ingested or absorbed. To protect yourself from gamma rays, you need a shield at least as thick as a concrete wall. This type of radiation causes severe damage to your internal organs. (X-rays fall into this category, but they are less penetrating than gamma rays.)
So. In as much as it's a nuclear reaction then the assumption is that there are gamma ray emissions. But the facts belie this. Therefore are there many questions still MileHigh. And gamma ray emissions have most certainly NOT been detected. This is the unresolved anomaly where cold fusion has still not been explained.
again,
Rosemary
added
Effectively 'low level gamma ray emission' is a contradiction in terms. If it is 'low energy' then it cannot be gamma rays. It's unfortunate that Rossi uses the term gamma ray at all. But in a way it's correct. Because that is what is required in terms of conventional physics. The point is that there's nothing conventional in low energy nuclear reactions in the first place. It's all still to be explained. It is, therefore a 'new' type of energy - or as Rossi calls it - 'a new kind of fire'.
Rosemary:
For right now I am taking Rossi at his word because I want to err on the side of caution.
I also note that you are exposing the 'rot' associated with Rossi. Is it fusion or not? Not when you talk to a federal agent in Florida it isn't. Is it fusion or the weak force in action? Who the fark knows, the man acts like a con artist. And to paraphrase TK, you are willfully ignoring the words of the person you apparently have also been idolizing because his words don't suit you. Force that square peg into a round hole Rosie Posie, nobody is going to notice.
Your link sucks because it makes reference to "inhaling" gamma rays. More dumbing down compliments of the Internet.
Here is something a bit better:
>>>>>
What is the effect of gamma rays on the human body?
Answer:
This section of the Wikipedia entry for Gamma Rays gives some information, you may like to read the whole entry, and look at the references. The following website may also be of interest:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf05.html
Gamma rays are the most dangerous form of radiation emitted by a nuclear explosion because of the difficulty in shielding them. This is because gamma rays have the shortest wavelength of all waves in the electromagnetic spectrum, and therefore have the greatest ability to penetrate through any gap, even a subatomic one, in what might otherwise be an effective shield.
Gamma-rays are not stopped by the skin. They can induce DNA alteration by interfering with the genetic material of the cell. DNA double-strand breaks are generally accepted to be the most biologically significant lesion by which ionizing radiation causes cancer and hereditary disease. A study done on Russian nuclear workers exposed to external whole-body gamma radiation at high cumulative doses shows the link between radiation exposure and death from leukemia, lung, liver, skeletal and other solid cancers. Alongside radiation, gamma-rays also produce thermal burn injuries and induce an immunosuppressive effect.
After gamma-irradiation, and the breaking of DNA double-strands, a cell can repair the damaged genetic material to the limit of its capability[citation needed]. However, a study of Rothkamm and Lobrich has shown that the repairing process works well after high-dose exposure but is much slower in the case of a low-dose exposure. This could mean that a chronic low-dose exposure cannot be fought by the body[citation needed]. The probability of detecting small alterations or of a detectable defect occurring is most likely small enough that the cell would replicate before initiating a full repair[citation needed]. Some cells can not detect their own genetic defects
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sounds like a really benign technology that every young couple would like to have in their basement, doesn't it?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 07:44:28 PM
For right now I am taking Rossi at his word because I want to err on the side of caution.
I also note that you are exposing the 'rot' associated with Rossi. Is it fusion or not? Not when you talk to a federal agent in Florida it isn't. Is it fusion or the weak force in action? Who the fark knows, the man acts like a con artist. And to paraphrase TK, you are willfully ignoring the words of the person you apparently have also been idolizing because his words don't suit you. Force that square peg into a round hole Rosie Posie, nobody is going to notice.
MileHigh - I'm not ignoring his words. Frankly I think that Rossi is over reliant on cold fusion depending on anything short of the weak interaction. But IF I idolise him - it's because I recognise his extraordinary courage. And I'm glad that you're that open that you'll wait for the facts to unfold. That's HUGE. And much appreciated.
And MileHigh - you CANNOT overestimate the potential toxicity of gamma ray emission. But that's the point. It's REQUIRED for a nuclear interaction. And here we have evidence of the perfect transmutation from one element to another - with absolutely NO gamma ray emissions at all. Which begs the question. If they can transmute nickel to copper - then why not mercury to gold? And on and on. In effect, it turns our conventional understanding on its ear. I have a son with a very young family and I know that they're in line for those E-Cats. Had there been any evidence EVER of associated toxicities - then I would certainly NOT have promoted this.
Anyway MilesHigherThanMost - I'm delighted to see that you're still game to consider this. I agree that Rossi seems to be a 'con artist' - but that's courtesy some rather toxic press. I think he's done BRILLIANTLY. And I think we all owe him a debt of gratitude for giving us a certain solution to some real problems related to global warming. At least. The question is still out there whether we can benefit financially. And that depends on how well we keep abreast of the facts and how well we can orchestrate any kind of protest if this technology also falls to a new kind of exploitive monopolist.
Kindest regards
Rosie
Rosemary:
QuoteEffectively 'low level gamma ray emission' is a contradiction in terms. If it is 'low energy' then it cannot be gamma rays.
You are completely wrong yet again. Gamma rays are simply high frequency electromagnetic radiation. So they still have the properties of frequency/wavelength and intensity. No contradiction in terms.
Go foof with your "entirely new energy" business.
However, it's easy to do a simple thought experiment, this is purely hypothetical for illustrative purposes.
It's a cold winter night and you are in your basement workshop. You are happy because for 500 watts worth of electricity, your E-Cat is purring and outputting 3000 watts worth of heat and keeping your house warm.
What that means of course is that your 3000 watts worth of heat are coming from 3000 watts worth of gamma ray production from the fusion nuclear reactor inside your home E-Cat. The lead gamma ray absorber is effectively the first stage in the heat exchanger that keeps your house warm.
While you are working at your work bench, the E-Cat purrs away in the adjacent room. However, you are entirely unaware that some of the lead lining failed for some unknown reason. And while you worked away, you were being bathed in a flux of about 400 watts worth of gamma radiation.
After an hour on you bench, you felt a headache coming on so you went upstairs to go to bed. When you woke up the next morning you were very sick. You wife called an ambulance but you died on the way to the hospital.
Is this possible? Who knows because the two magic LENR devices being promoted by Rossi and Defkalion are complete mysteries and there is not a single shred of independent test data that says that they even work.
Can a high dosage of gamma rays kill you? Absolutely.
MileHigh
Anybody that thinks that there can be no possible danger in having a fusion nuclear reactor in their basement that runs at low temperatures (no instant halt to the reaction like there is with hot fusion) and outputs thousands of watts worth of deadly gamma radiation is living in a fantasy land.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 07:59:12 PM
Rosemary:
You are completely wrong yet again. Gamma rays are simply high frequency electromagnetic radiation. So they still have the properties of frequency/wavelength and intensity. No contradiction in terms.
Go foof with your "entirely new energy" business.
However, it's simple to do a simple thought experiment, this is purely hypothetical for illustrative purposes.
It's a cold winter night and you are in your basement workshop. You are happy because for 500 watts worth of electricity, your E-Cat is purring and outputting 3000 watts worth of heat and keeping your house warm.
What that means of course is that your 3000 watts worth of heat are coming from 3000 watts worth of gamma ray production from the fusion nuclear reactor inside your home E-Cat. The lead gamma ray absorber is effectively the first stage in the heat exchanger that keeps your house warm.
While you are working at your work bench, the E-Cat purrs away in the adjacent room. However, you are entirely unaware that some of the lead lining failed for some unknown reason. And while you worked away, you were being bathed in a flux of about 400 watts worth of gamma radiation.
After an hour on you bench, you felt a headache coming on so you went upstairs to go to bed. When you woke up the next morning you were very sick. You wife called an ambulance but you died on the way to the hospital.
Is this possible? Who knows because the two magic LENR devices being promoted by Rossi and Defkalion are complete mysteries and there is not a single shred of independent test data that says that they even work.
Can a high dosage of gamma rays kill you? Absolutely.
MileHigh
LOL MileHigh. I've got another thought experiment. My E-cat purrs and purrs in that basement. The lead lining fails and makes no difference. As that cat is INCAPABLE of outputting gamma radiation. I go to bed with my head clear of any kind of headache. I wake up fresh - and I have no need of any hospitalisation at all. And when I die - I die from old age and an excess of nicotine and caffeine some many years after installation of that E-cat.
;D 8)
Rosemary:
QuoteThe lead lining fails and makes no difference. as that cat is INCAPABLE of outputting gamma radiation.
You are not a technical person so anything that you state about this stuff has no credibility. Believe me, the "guys" are aware of this also.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:04:07 PM
Anybody that thinks that there can be no possible danger in having a fusion nuclear reactor in their basement that runs at low temperatures (no instant halt to the reaction like there is with hot fusion) and outputs thousands of watts worth of deadly gamma radiation is living in a fantasy land.
No question. If we were talking about the fission process of the average nuclear reactor that our monopolists are excessively fond of building. The E-cat is NOT in the same bracket. Thank you God.
Rosemary
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:08:14 PM
Rosemary:
You are not a technical person so anything that you state about this stuff has no credibility. Believe me, the "guys" are aware of this also.
MileHigh
What guys? You, TK and some others? I would be rather insulted if you/they afforded me any credibility at all.
Rosie Pose.
This is from the Wikipedia entry on the Energy Catalyzer:
QuoteTheoretical astrophysicist Ethan Siegel and nuclear physicist Peter Thieberger argue that the claims for the E-Cat are incompatible with the fundamentals of nuclear physics.[24] In particular, the Coulomb barrier for the claimed fusion reaction is so high that it is unsurpassable anywhere in the known universe, including the interior of stars. The reaction also would create gamma radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_radiation) that would penetrate the few inches of shielding apparently provided by the E-Cat, leading to acute radiation syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome) in persons involved in the demonstrations.[24] Given numerous other scientific inconsistencies â€" such as the ratio of isotopes in the supposed copper "fusion product" being identical to that in natural copper[25] â€" the authors argue that it is now time "for the e-Cat's proponents to provide the provable, testable, reproducible science that can answer these straightforward physics objections."[24]
That Coulomb barrier is what I referred to a few days ago where I said that the hydrogen nucleus and the nickel nucleus have to heading towards each other with unbelievably high speed to overcome the electrostatic repulsion.
Note what they state: "
In particular, the Coulomb barrier for the claimed fusion reaction is so high that it is unsurpassable anywhere in the known universe, including the interior of stars."
Myself as a lay person, and many other nuclear scientists, don't believe that there is some "other way" to work around this fundamental problem. If the whole thing "blows up" and two years from now Rossi and Defkalion are disgraced names that are no better than Mylow, it will be because of the Coulomb barrier.
This one just for Rosie Posie: "
The reaction also would create gamma radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_radiation) that would penetrate the few inches of shielding apparently provided by the E-Cat, leading to acute radiation syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome) in persons involved in the demonstrations."
So it seems to me we are left with an unexplainable mess. So it should be pretty exciting to see what happens in the future. It's not nearly a neat and clean a "slam-dunk" that some of the posters around here would like you to believe.
It's the old cliche, it will either be a bunch of disgraced con artists or the Dawn of the Age of Aquarius.
MileHigh
from wiki
Theoretical astrophysicist Ethan Siegel and nuclear physicist Peter Thieberger argue that the claims for the E-Cat are incompatible with the fundamentals of nuclear physics.
[24] In particular, the Coulomb barrier for the claimed fusion reaction is so high that it is unsurpassable anywhere in the known universe, including the interior of stars. The reaction also would create gamma radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_radiation) that would penetrate the few inches of shielding apparently provided by the E-Cat, leading to acute radiation syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome) in persons involved in the demonstrations.
[24] Given numerous other scientific inconsistencies â€" such as the ratio of isotopes in the supposed copper "fusion product" being identical to that in natural copper
[25] â€" the authors argue that it is now time "for the e-Cat's proponents to provide the provable, testable, reproducible science that can answer these straightforward physics objections."
[24]It is clear that Messrs Siegel and Thieberger's arguments depend on there being any need at all for the cold fusion effect to surpass the Coulomb barrier. Clearly Nature sees no such dependency and nor is She about to to comply with their arguments. Which can only mean that the Coulomb barrier is most certainly surpassable or that Siegel and Thieberger are wrong.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:33:52 PMThat Coulomb barrier is what I referred to a few days ago where I said that the hydrogen nucleus and the nickel nucleus have to heading towards each other with unbelievably high speed to overcome the electrostatic repulsion.
I'm not sure that velocity comes into it. The energy catalyst used here is something that we've still to be told - and this process is initiated with nothing more complicated than the electromagnetic interaction applied in an electric current.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:33:52 PMNote what they state: "In particular, the Coulomb barrier for the claimed fusion reaction is so high that it is unsurpassable anywhere in the known universe, including the interior of stars."
IF this is what they're claiming then they are wrong. Because in the process of creating our manifold elements in the periodic table - then some energy must have been available from the known universe - or we would not have that variety and number of atoms.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:33:52 PMMyself as a lay person, and many other nuclear scientists, don't believe that there is some "other way" to work around this fundamental problem. If the whole thing "blows up" and two years from now Rossi and Defkalion are disgraced names that are no better than Mylow, it will be because of the Coulomb barrier.
Actually - if either party are disgraced then it won't be so much do to the Coulomb barrier but will, more probably be thanks to the hard work of those such as you and TK who both go to inordinate lengths to deny evidence and disgrace claimants.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:33:52 PMThis one just for Rosie Posie: "The reaction also would create gamma radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_radiation) that would penetrate the few inches of shielding apparently provided by the E-Cat, leading to acute radiation syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome) in persons involved in the demonstrations."
So it seems to me we are left with an unexplainable mess. So it should be pretty exciting to see what happens in the future. It's not nearly a neat and clean a "slam-dunk" that some of the posters around here would like you to believe.
It's the old cliche, it will either be a bunch of disgraced con artists or the Dawn of the Age of Aquarius.
I think we're looking at the Age of Aquarius in full flood. It's dawn was some time back in the 60's.
Regards again
Rosie Pose
Quote from: firlight on April 15, 2012, 03:27:37 PM
Hi chess some more good news.
Regards Dave :D
http://www.e-catworld.com/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/)
@firlight:
Yes, this is very good news and it lays out Rossi's business and production plans very nicely.
Personally, I predict the E-Cat home unit will make it to market first followed by Defkalion and then finally, Brillouin Energy. There is no chance of a monopoly by ANY of the three (and others in the wings) competitors with the exception of Rossi's company which will be the sole provider of LENR products to the public until the others enter the market shortly thereafter.
Thanks for the update, Dave.
Cheers,
Chess
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:33:52 PM
This is from the Wikipedia entry on the Energy Catalyzer:
That Coulomb barrier is what I referred to a few days ago where I said that the hydrogen nucleus and the nickel nucleus have to heading towards each other with unbelievably high speed to overcome the electrostatic repulsion.
Note what they state: "In particular, the Coulomb barrier for the claimed fusion reaction is so high that it is unsurpassable anywhere in the known universe, including the interior of stars."
Myself as a lay person, and many other nuclear scientists, don't believe that there is some "other way" to work around this fundamental problem. If the whole thing "blows up" and two years from now Rossi and Defkalion are disgraced names that are no better than Mylow, it will be because of the Coulomb barrier.
This one just for Rosie Posie: "The reaction also would create gamma radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_radiation) that would penetrate the few inches of shielding apparently provided by the E-Cat, leading to acute radiation syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acute_radiation_syndrome) in persons involved in the demonstrations."
So it seems to me we are left with an unexplainable mess. So it should be pretty exciting to see what happens in the future. It's not nearly a neat and clean a "slam-dunk" that some of the posters around here would like you to believe.
It's the old cliche, it will either be a bunch of disgraced con artists or the Dawn of the Age of Aquarius.
MileHigh
MileHigh:
The known mathematics do prove a cold fusion reaction is impossible and I fully understand this, but in light of several other known facts, only a fool would throw away the possibility that some other interactions may achieve this at some lower energy level.
There is even a bacteria that achieves this impossible action and I don't believe it uses a particle accelerator either, also the additional heat emitted from the earth being more than that received indicates some other process is involved and some of the same scientists believe it is nickle fusion in the earths mantel causing additional heat, and also the transmutation of other elements in plasma conditions has been known for many years.
Don't make me tell you that I am also possibly more than qualified to do a safety inspection of a cold fusion device merely on my own ability. I have been a machinist for over 15 years so I know metal working, I have been a mechanical engineer for almost 20 years so I know design, I do digital electronic design and radio transmitter building for a hobby along with CNC servo building and software programming in C and 80386 assembler and have always repair everything myself that fails, furnace, refrigerator, air conditioner, autos, even my kids toys! (I have my own CNC machines)
I am telling you this not to impress you because I'm not into that, but to show how far off you are on your hunches or gut feeling. Know the facts and you will have some better insight. I am waiting for Rossi to get this on the market soon, so I don't have to build one myself! Reading the latest that there is no catalyst used, that it is only a matter of the hydrogen loading process, only makes it harder for me to resist building my own!
Sorry Rose, I do agree with MileHigh on the gamma ray discussion, they are simply X-rays of higher energy. When Rossi says Gamma rays of <500kev, he is thinking high energy x-rays that can be easily stopped by a few MM of lead and not those with energies of a several mev.
Quote from: chessnyt on April 16, 2012, 12:02:34 AM
@firlight:
Yes, this is very good news and it lays out Rossi's business and production plans very nicely.
Personally, I predict the E-Cat home unit will make it to market first followed by Defkalion and then finally, Brillouin Energy. There is no chance of a monopoly by ANY of the three (and others in the wings) competitors with the exception of Rossi's company which will be the sole provider of LENR products to the public until the others enter the market shortly thereafter.
Thanks for the update, Dave.
Cheers,
Chess
I hope so Chess. And more to the point - there would be no need for Rossi to monopolise anything at all - provided that he gets his patents approved. Which hopefully will eventually come to pass. That's more critical - in my book - than the licensing. Which I trust is just standard procedure? Again. I hope so.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Quote from: lumen on April 16, 2012, 12:20:22 AM
MileHigh:
The known mathematics do prove a cold fusion reaction is impossible and I fully understand this, but in light of several other known facts, only a fool would throw away the possibility that some other interactions may achieve this at some lower energy level.
There is even a bacteria that achieves this impossible action and I don't believe it uses a particle accelerator either, also the additional heat emitted from the earth being more than that received indicates some other process is involved and some of the same scientists believe it is nickle fusion in the earths mantel causing additional heat, and also the transmutation of other elements in plasma conditions has been known for many years.
Don't make me tell you that I am also possibly more than qualified to do a safety inspection of a cold fusion device merely on my own ability. I have been a machinist for over 15 years so I know metal working, I have been a mechanical engineer for almost 20 years so I know design, I do digital electronic design and radio transmitter building for a hobby along with CNC servo building and software programming in C and 80386 assembler and have always repair everything myself that fails, furnace, refrigerator, air conditioner, autos, even my kids toys! (I have my own CNC machines)
I am telling you this not to impress you because I'm not into that, but to show how far off you are on your hunches or gut feeling. Know the facts and you will have some better insight. I am waiting for Rossi to get this on the market soon, so I don't have to build one myself! Reading the latest that there is no catalyst used, that it is only a matter of the hydrogen loading process, only makes it harder for me to resist building my own!
Sorry Rose, I do agree with MileHigh on the gamma ray discussion, they are simply X-rays of higher energy. When Rossi says Gamma rays of <500kev, he is thinking high energy x-rays that can be easily stopped by a few MM of lead and not those with energies of a several mev.
Hi Lumen,
I hope you do build your own E-cat. That's much more important than whether you or I are right or wrong about gamma ray emissions. But I'm not pretending to authority about this. I am referring to the explicit results that came from his first demonstration of this device. And the level of emission was absolutely less than gamma emission.
In any event. Very nice to see the level of engagement - and very nice to see that you as well as Chess and others can build this. Because I've got a hunch that we'll be relying on this more than you realise. It's the fall back - if anyone actually manages to halt Rossi or if Defkalion become the sole players. But as Chess has shown - there are likely to be many more than just the two or three that are showing up at the moment. I do hope so. Because that's really our only security blanket. We need market competition. And lots of it. Then - as TK puts it 'bring it on'. Because that way we'll have all the protection we need.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
added
And Lumen, BTW - I'm not sure about what 'secret sauce' Rossi uses. I also wondered if there was anything that was undisclosed. I hope you're right and that there's nothing hidden. Because then it will be more easily replicable. But we're still left with some explaining to do related to cold fusion itself. And no matter how big those sums or how complicated - there's unequivocal evidence of the transmutation of elements. And that is not happening at high energies - and it is not emitting gamma radiation. Which is a good thing - in my book.
Rosemary:
QuoteIF this is what they're claiming then they are wrong. Because in the process of creating our manifold elements in the periodic table - then some energy must have been available from the known universe - or we would not have that variety and number of atoms.
Nickel is created in exploding stars. That's the only place that packs enough of a wallop to create nickel.
Lumen:
I seriously doubt that you would be qualified to build your own E-Cat. You are just in reality disconnect mode. It would probably take at least 20 man-years of engineering work to make a "home E-Cat." I don't know how you can't see that based on your qualifications.
Anyway, I an prepared to wait now. The bulk of what I wanted to say has been stated. As far as I am concerned both of you are fantasizing in technicolour if you think that some "trick" can give you a work-around for the Coulomb law energy barrier that has to be overcome. And yes Rosemary, it has everything to do with velocity. You can imagine a stationary nickel nucleus and a hydrogen nucleus is fired out of an imaginary gun at high velocity and hits the nickel nucleus at high speed. The insurmountable problem is the giant electrostatic springs of repulsion that have to overcome. The springs are so strong that normally it takes the pressures and velocities inside an exploding star to overcome them. But perhaps this all just fog for you and you can't visualize it.
It will be a miracle if this stuff actually works. So we just have a few months to wait.... But you guys know the prediction. It is so predictable that it's almost not even worth mentioning. The release will be delayed. Oooooh. Then it will get delayed again. Ooooh.
Let's see what happens!
MileHigh
Quote from: lumen on April 16, 2012, 12:20:22 AM
MileHigh:
The known mathematics do prove a cold fusion reaction is impossible and I fully understand this, but in light of several other known facts, only a fool would throw away the possibility that some other interactions may achieve this at some lower energy level.
There is even a bacteria that achieves this impossible action and I don't believe it uses a particle accelerator either, also the additional heat emitted from the earth being more than that received indicates some other process is involved and some of the same scientists believe it is nickle fusion in the earths mantel causing additional heat, and also the transmutation of other elements in plasma conditions has been known for many years.
Don't make me tell you that I am also possibly more than qualified to do a safety inspection of a cold fusion device merely on my own ability. I have been a machinist for over 15 years so I know metal working, I have been a mechanical engineer for almost 20 years so I know design, I do digital electronic design and radio transmitter building for a hobby along with CNC servo building and software programming in C and 80386 assembler and have always repair everything myself that fails, furnace, refrigerator, air conditioner, autos, even my kids toys! (I have my own CNC machines)
I am telling you this not to impress you because I'm not into that, but to show how far off you are on your hunches or gut feeling. Know the facts and you will have some better insight. I am waiting for Rossi to get this on the market soon, so I don't have to build one myself! Reading the latest that there is no catalyst used, that it is only a matter of the hydrogen loading process, only makes it harder for me to resist building my own!
Sorry Rose, I do agree with MileHigh on the gamma ray discussion, they are simply X-rays of higher energy. When Rossi says Gamma rays of <500kev, he is thinking high energy x-rays that can be easily stopped by a few MM of lead and not those with energies of a several mev.
Hi Lumen
You seem qualified to build a E-cat ,dont`t think MileHigh could, not taken enough Acid
he is just on a Ego Trip.Am getting a bit long in the tooth myself being a OAP but still think I could
knock one together its pretty simple stuff compared with what I use to work on.
If you do go ahead maybe we could exchange info.
Regards Dave :D
Quote from: firlight on April 16, 2012, 10:11:46 AM
Hi Lumen
You seem qualified to build a E-cat ,dont`t think MileHigh could, not taken enough Acid
he is just on a Ego Trip.Am getting a bit long in the tooth myself being a OAP but still think I could
knock one together its pretty simple stuff compared with what I use to work on.
If you do go ahead maybe we could exchange info.
Regards Dave :D
This post like Lumen's is gold. firlight - I think we all take comfort in the fact that you guys have got the skills to put this together. It's our 'fall back'. Much needed. And thank heavens you're all motivated. The day may yet come that we'll be fighting for the right to install our own 'solutions'. Which will be when we finally get rid of that 'nanny control' that most of our Governments insult us with. Then we can be some kind of 'master' of our own destinies. Right now our free will is heavily constrained by our Governments taxation policies coupled with our energy suppliers unconstrained reach for profit. I think we've all had enough.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Rosemary,
Yes, governments are a problem,but I know there is a resurgence of a new Counter culture of which I was involved with in 1960`s.Mike Lessor who worked at the Rutherford Lab as I did myself doing experiments with Nimrod the Proton synchrotron,dodging Gamma rays crawling underneath the Beam Lines while it was running.Gamma from a E-Cat what`s that! ;) There is a strong new energy movement and it is getting stronger.For those of a Artistic bent Mike setup our counterculture newspaper online you can also look at the archives going back to the 1960`s Here is the link http://internationaltimes.it/ (http://internationaltimes.it/)
Best Regards Dave 8)
This thread might be entering a more or less holding pattern until the big reveal by Defkalion in July. Unless there is a delay...
Anyway were are at a suitably confusing precipice and I suppose it is symbolic of the whole cold fusion - LENR enigma.
Rosemary is accusing Rossi of lying outright but she still believes in him.
Lumen claims he can do 20 man-years of worth of multidisciplinary work all by himself no problem, it's just a bit more complicated than erecting a gazebo. That software control system code linking the sensors and the reactor core and controlling the water pump should be a piece of cake!
Rossi says it's fusion on Tuesdays and Thursdays and weak force on Mondays and Wednesdays.
This is Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applied on a macro scale. It should be fun to see what comes out in the wash.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 16, 2012, 05:58:32 PM
This is Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applied on a macro scale. It should be fun to see what comes out in the wash.
MileHigh
heisenberg's uncertainty principle??? LMFAO LOLLING all over the floor. either you are engaging in your usual gratuituos hyperbole or you haven't a clue as to what the heisenberg uncertainty principle actually is... i'm going to go with all of the above.
you milehigh, much like tinselkoala/alsetalokin, are the perfect blend of sophistry and moronic that gives us the word sophomore... the pretender to wisdom.
Wilby... on the prowl. *splat* *splat* Time for you to scavenge for some restaurant napkins, hopefully unused.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 16, 2012, 09:30:30 PM
Wilby... on the prowl. *splat* *splat* Time for you to scavenge for some restaurant napkins, hopefully unused.
more logical fallacy from the milehigh... ::) imagine that...
i notice, as usual, you didn't address the substance of my post whatsoever.
you are wrong. you haven't a clue as to what constitutes heisenberg's uncertainty principle... and when called out on it you respond with nothing... except logical fallacy. as i said, and as you evidenced, you're the perfect blend.
Hey Fapby:
QuoteTransmit the message, to the receiver
hope for an answer some day
I got three passports, couple of visas
don't even know my real name
High on a hillside, trucks are loading
everything's ready to roll
I sleep in the daytime, I work in the nightime
I might not ever get home
Watch out, the bots scouring the web might track your connection! Time to disconnect!
Quote from: MileHigh on April 16, 2012, 09:45:10 PM
Hey Fapby:
Watch out, the bots scouring the web might track your connection! Time to disconnect!
how appropriate that milehigh quotes the talking heads... ::)
as evidenced once again. milehigh, the perfect blend of sophistry and moronic that give us the word sophomore; the pretender to wisdom...
did you have a cogent explanation of EXACTLY how "This is Heisenberg's uncertainty principle applied on a macro scale"? or are you just going to respond with logical fallacy all day? just man up and admit you were wrong... like you ask of rosemary.
MileHigh can now return to his job in SALES, now that he has shown no useful talent but talk!
Hey everyone some interesting info about lenr have a read milehigh you might learn something.
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/piantelli-presents-nickel-hydrogen-lenr-research-data-in-siena-italy/
Quote from: firlight on April 16, 2012, 12:10:10 PM
Rosemary,
Yes, governments are a problem,but I know there is a resurgence of a new Counter culture of which I was involved with in 1960`s.Mike Lessor who worked at the Rutherford Lab as I did myself doing experiments with Nimrod the Proton synchrotron,dodging Gamma rays crawling underneath the Beam Lines while it was running.Gamma from a E-Cat what`s that! ;) There is a strong new energy movement and it is getting stronger.For those of a Artistic bent Mike setup our counterculture newspaper online you can also look at the archives going back to the 1960`s Here is the link http://internationaltimes.it/ (http://internationaltimes.it/)
Best Regards Dave 8)
Golly Dave,
How interesting that you worked at such a famous laboratory. That and Cavendish. It's an exclusive address. I'm most impressed. I'm going to follow up on that link. And I agree. We're definitely into a new counter culture. Exciting times indeed. My own take is that we're uncovering and actually locating 'dark energy'. And it's nothing more complex than a particle that structures our magnetic field forces. But that explanation is so prosaic the most of our boffins simply get offended. Anyway. Who knows. The best news of all is that Rossi's experimental genius has shown us how to use that energy. And God knows. We need it. Or our poor planet is simply going to die from asphyxiation.
Nice to see you on board. You're in skilled company here with Lumen, Chess, Gwandau and others.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@ everybody,
With the risk of getting polluted by trolls I want to share some thoughts about what may be going on in a greater perspective.
Piantelli, Rossi, Widom, Larsen, Srivastava, Mizuno and all the others are just part of something much greater happening to mankind.
Their findings will lead to doorways into areas of knowledge never before shown to humanity, far beyond our wildest dreams.
Every new piece of the puzzle that surfaces in contemporary particle research indicates that there is no such thing as so called physical matter.
The dream of finding the Higgs particle, also called he God particle due to its ability to give physicality to the rest of the particles,
particles who all due to the todays insights in quantum physics have lost this mandate, seems more distant than ever.
Instead matter seems to be made of interacting standing wave configurations seemingly vibrated into existence by a center oriented source
not yet understood or possible to detect with our present technology.
It may well be that the very existence of so called matter is but a mere projection of sorts, thus making our contemporary view of the universe
as made by solid matter, like drift wood being here by its own means, as a quite halting and primitive interpretation.
Mankind is still in its infant stage of understanding universe, quite newly getting familiar with the parts of matter not directly seen by the eye,
and therefore it is fully understandable that our first stumbling attempts to grasp whats going on around us may be wrongly interpreted.
These past first two hundred years into the light may have been loaded with misconceptions and phases in our conceptual growth were we
again and again have mistaken the effect for the cause and thus have made halting assumptions based upon those very misconceptions.
The novel persons taking steps into uncharted areas of knowledge always are met with resistance. This is a fully natural reaction,
and the degree of resistance defines the ability of humanity at that time to be available to regeneration of knowledge.
Paradigm changes always topples the former worldview, and even if 2012 and the next few years to come won't be immediately recognized as the first signs
of such changes, the changes are here, mushrooming globally not only in the scientific region, but in many other levels as well.
It is much deeper than mere pure luck by an inventor. A well known fact that is repeatedly observed is the pattern of a discovery surfacing simultaneously
on several different locations without these people knowing about the others.
Pesonally I believe the evolution of knowledge into our present technological phase would happen to any animal given the boost of a half a kilo extra brain
and a useful pair of limbs.
Evolution goes in pulses, which also applies for the introduction of new knowledge for the benefit of the human race, and soon it will be visible not only for
the open minds already sensing the changes but as well for those who did not dare to believe such a wonderful scenario.
It is not about Piantelli, Rossi, Widom, Larsen, Srivastava, Mizuno and all the others all over the world succeeding in repeatable results.
It is about the sudden increase in human consciousness globally, detected not only within science, but socially, economically and politically worldwide,
and not only reflected in the growing global critizism of the monetary system or the arabian spring, but as well by the growing awarness
of the average human being concerning the need for a better and more healthy environment.
The change has started and nothing can stop it.
Gwandau
Lumen:
Over about 1 1/2 pages I pointed out potential down sides and inconsistencies in the whole shebang. That includes your claim that you can just whip up your own "home brew" E-Cat once it is available to copy. And you have nothing as a come-back at all, just a childish taunt.
Gwandau:
Yes, it's fun to gaze at the stars and contemplate the number 42.
All:
Let's just see if these two entities actually deliver something, shall we? Let's see if what is delivered is actually verified by independent and credible third-party testers. For the next reveal, how about all of us switch off the blind faith and hope and actually demand results.
MileHigh
Energyhope:
I don't have an answer and I acknowledge that a lot of research is going on and both positive and negative results have been reported. It's interesting to note that the concept of nickel-hydrogen fusion only exists in LENR research. You won't find it anywhere else. I am assuming that the original cold fusion research in he late eighties and early nineties was focused on more "conventional" LENR reactions with both elements way down on the periodic table.
Because this technology is controversial, Rossi or Defkalion need to do a killer demo that erases all doubt. Let's the see the thing run for one month continuously.
Still in a holding pattern.
MileHigh
Quote from: Gwandau on April 17, 2012, 07:03:23 PM
@ everybody,
With the risk of getting polluted by trolls I want to share some thoughts about what may be going on in a greater perspective.
Piantelli, Rossi, Widom, Larsen, Srivastava, Mizuno and all the others are just part of something much greater happening to mankind.
Their findings will lead to doorways into areas of knowledge never before shown to humanity, far beyond our wildest dreams.
Every new piece of the puzzle that surfaces in contemporary particle research indicates that there is no such thing as so called physical matter.
The dream of finding the Higgs particle, also called he God particle due to its ability to give physicality to the rest of the particles,
particles who all due to the todays insights in quantum physics have lost this mandate, seems more distant than ever.
Instead matter seems to be made of interacting standing wave configurations seemingly vibrated into existence by a center oriented source
not yet understood or possible to detect with our present technology.
It may well be that the very existence of so called matter is but a mere projection of sorts, thus making our contemporary view of the universe
as made by solid matter, like drift wood being here by its own means, as a quite halting and primitive interpretation.
Mankind is still in its infant stage of understanding universe, quite newly getting familiar with the parts of matter not directly seen by the eye,
and therefore it is fully understandable that our first stumbling attempts to grasp whats going on around us may be wrongly interpreted.
These past first two hundred years into the light may have been loaded with misconceptions and phases in our conceptual growth were we
again and again have mistaken the effect for the cause and thus have made halting assumptions based upon those very misconceptions.
The novel persons taking steps into uncharted areas of knowledge always are met with resistance. This is a fully natural reaction,
and the degree of resistance defines the ability of humanity at that time to be available to regeneration of knowledge.
Paradigm changes always topples the former worldview, and even if 2012 and the next few years to come won't be immediately recognized as the first signs
of such changes, the changes are here, mushrooming globally not only in the scientific region, but in many other levels as well.
It is much deeper than mere pure luck by an inventor. A well known fact that is repeatedly observed is the pattern of a discovery surfacing simultaneously
on several different locations without these people knowing about the others.
Pesonally I believe the evolution of knowledge into our present technological phase would happen to any animal given the boost of a half a kilo extra brain
and a useful pair of limbs.
Evolution goes in pulses, which also applies for the introduction of new knowledge for the benefit of the human race, and soon it will be visible not only for
the open minds already sensing the changes but as well for those who did not dare to believe such a wonderful scenario.
It is not about Piantelli, Rossi, Widom, Larsen, Srivastava, Mizuno and all the others all over the world succeeding in repeatable results.
It is about the sudden increase in human consciousness globally, detected not only within science, but socially, economically and politically worldwide,
and not only reflected in the growing global critizism of the monetary system or the arabian spring, but as well by the growing awarness
of the average human being concerning the need for a better and more healthy environment.
The change has started and nothing can stop it.
Gwandau
Gwandau, this post of yours is so thoughtful and so well written that I'm simply posting it again that it can stay in focus. Very, very well put indeed. And thank you.
kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Gwandau on April 17, 2012, 07:03:23 PM
It is not about Piantelli, Rossi, Widom, Larsen, Srivastava, Mizuno and all the others all over the world succeeding in repeatable results.
It is about the sudden increase in human consciousness globally, detected not only within science, but socially, economically and politically worldwide, and not only reflected in the growing global critizism of the monetary system or the arabian spring, but as well by the growing awarness of the average human being concerning the need for a better and more healthy environment.
The change has started and nothing can stop it.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
The text in bold above is my favorite part of your post. A post that was well thought out, well constructed and beautifully written!
Cheers,
Chess
@Everyone:
I've been keeping an eye on this individual (Piantelli) for quite some time and his new company is just another "...in the wings." LENR developer quite capable of rivaling Rossi.
Here's an excerpt from a recent article:
"The recent presentation from Francesco Piantelli of his data from nickel hydrogen LENR experiments seems to be another confirmation that when heated to a certain temperature, and under certain other conditions, excess energy can be obtained by combining nickel and hydrogen. At least four companies now â€" Leonardo, Defkalion, Brillouin and Nichenergy â€" have been formed to try exploit this phenomenon and bring it into the commercial realm."
The full article can be found here:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/the-emergence-of-lenr/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/the-emergence-of-lenr/)
Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
The following is a recent poll that I wanted to share with everyone in which over 4000 people participated in:
a) Rossi has discovered a new way to make useful energy...................(49%, 2,287 Votes)
b) Don't Know.........................................................................................(21%, 1,001 Votes)
c) Rossi has nothing and is perpetrating a hoax/scam............................(19%, 885 Votes)
d) Rossi honestly thinks he has achieved cold fusion but is mistaken.....(8%, 367 Votes)
e) Rossi has discovered a form of energy but it is insignificantly small....(3%, 121 Votes)
I found the results interesting as the overwhelming majority are convinced that Rossi's E-Cat is for real. All of the trolls were found in the lower percentile thus being squelched out by the majority ;D
Better luck next time, trolls ;)
Regards,
Chess
Chessnyt:
Don't you know that there is always a disclaimer associated with those polls where they say that they are not scientific? <rim shot>
The other flaw is that the poll means nothing. It can't possibly be conclusive of anything. It's like asking people if they think it is going to rain 25 days from today.
The people that really need luck are Rossi and his fiends. Let's hope that he can do a convincing demo that's verified by independent parties. How about we see one run for a full month non-stop?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 19, 2012, 11:57:17 PM
Chessnyt:
Don't you know that there is always a disclaimer associated with those polls where they say that they are not scientific? <rim shot>
The other flaw is that the poll means nothing. It can't possibly be conclusive of anything. It's like asking people if they think it is going to rain 25 days from today.
The people that really need luck are Rossi and his fiends. Let's hope that he can do a convincing demo that's verified by independent parties. How about we see one run for a full month non-stop?
MileHigh
@MileHigh:
Quite to the contrary, the poll means a great deal.
It means that the paid disinformation agents are losing their war against the truth and are no longer effective in dissuading people from accepting Rossi's E-Cat along with the technology it's based on (LENR).
I am sure you would like to downplay and discount the significance of public opinion as it grossly exposes your ineffectiveness.
It means you will have to work even harder to try to turn more people against Rossi or you'll soon find yourself out of a job.
Fight harder ;)
Chess
You are double-glazed-eyed for two reasons; 1) you actually think that I might be getting paid, and 2) you are apparently ignoring the fact that the poll is not truly reflective of your alleged "war" because it's preaching to the choir.
Quote from: MileHigh on April 20, 2012, 01:14:58 AM
...you actually think that I might be getting paid?
@MileHigh:
Yeah, I believe you are. I'm using your own qualification method so I can't be wrong. You know, the same one you are using to allege that Rossi is running a scam? Remember that one? I'm using your "...it's possible therefore it's true" methodology/rule.
Now why is it that the "...it's possible and therefore it's true" rule is only ordained for you to recklessly use against others to publicly destroy their reputations through defamation of character, however, you don't enjoy it when it's applied to you? Why is that? Why do you not like the taste of your own medicine?
Now you think about that before you go to bed tonight...
Really,
Chess
MileHigh:
Why do you come here? You already know this cannot be real, you were told that years ago.
You know this is so impossible I'm sure it's not worth your time to come here.
All of us here are so delusional there is no point in trying to save us. Just save yourself and forget about all this.
I just went through all 71! pages of this thread and had to sign up for an account so I could post.
Chess, you (and others) go on and on about how Rossi can't be a scam artist because no one has been harmed by his claim.
Pardon my swearing, but I beg to F###ING differ. I certainly have been harmed by reading through 71 pages of you and others saying essentially "I believe Rossi because the world really needs this technology, and because Rossi said..." Then there is the other (smaller) camp repeatedly saying "I want to believe, but I need a credible independent third-party to test and verify over a reasonable (say a month) period that it works."
One camp is rational, the other camp, not so much. If you're actually wondering which is which, as yourself "is it rational to want independent, robust verification?" If you said no, you're in the Not So Much camp. I mean, this really isn't difficult to think through.
As to the argument, that Rossi isn't trying to get money out of people, therefore he must be legit, I suggest everyone see the movie "A Beautiful Mind". Rossi could easily, with pure intentions, be fully delusional, or maybe just wrong. Although I do like the suggestion that he will be asking for donations to help get the UL testing completed.
I will make you this promise. If in the next six months Rossi gets a UL approval (hell, if it can be proven that they are even testing units) I'll eat my mouse. OK, I wont eat my mouse, but I seriously will swallow my mouse wheel.
@MileHigh - Stop...just stop. You're bound to give yourself an ulcer. You could easily take a few months break, come back, and start again. I expect that there will be another 20 pages and still nothing truly real or really true.
For the record, I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and Rossi has got This Sh#T in the Bag! That would be really cool! It still wouldn't change the fact that at this point, there is a distinct smell of trout in the air.
Mark:
I am content to wait. It's often a waiting game. Hey, I am still waiting for Steorn to deliver. lol Not listening to the thought control wannabees though. We can all wait together and see what transpires.
It looks like the next move will come from Defkalion and after that Rossi. Thee are some other players also. If this is real you are looking at the next Edison.
A quick check on Nickel:
<<<<
In 2007 world primary production stood at 1.416 million tonnes. However, the economic crisis led to lower worldwide nickel production in the period 2008 to 2009 and production of primary metal declined to 1.32 million tonnes in the latter year. Production rapidly recovered in 2010 to 1.446 million tonnes and increased further to 1.589 million tonnes in 2011. On an annual average the growth in production between 2001 and 2011 was 3.7%.
...
Ongoing exploration continues to add to both bases. According to some sources, nickel resources on the sea-bed are many times those located on land. The land resource base is thought to be in excess of 100 years at the present mining rate.
>>>>>
So we are drowning in nickel. This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius! The Age of Aquarius! lol
MileHigh
Quote from: Mark_Eric on April 20, 2012, 11:06:50 AM
I just went through all 71! pages of this thread and had to sign up for an account so I could post.
Chess, you (and others) go on and on about how Rossi can't be a scam artist because no one has been harmed by his claim.
Pardon my swearing, but I beg to F###ING differ. I certainly have been harmed by reading through 71 pages of you and others saying essentially "I believe Rossi because the world really needs this technology, and because Rossi said..." Then there is the other (smaller) camp repeatedly saying "I want to believe, but I need a credible independent third-party to test and verify over a reasonable (say a month) period that it works."
One camp is rational, the other camp, not so much. If you're actually wondering which is which, as yourself "is it rational to want independent, robust verification?" If you said no, you're in the Not So Much camp. I mean, this really isn't difficult to think through.
As to the argument, that Rossi isn't trying to get money out of people, therefore he must be legit, I suggest everyone see the movie "A Beautiful Mind". Rossi could easily, with pure intentions, be fully delusional, or maybe just wrong. Although I do like the suggestion that he will be asking for donations to help get the UL testing completed.
I will make you this promise. If in the next six months Rossi gets a UL approval (hell, if it can be proven that they are even testing units) I'll eat my mouse. OK, I wont eat my mouse, but I seriously will swallow my mouse wheel.
@MileHigh - Stop...just stop. You're bound to give yourself an ulcer. You could easily take a few months break, come back, and start again. I expect that there will be another 20 pages and still nothing truly real or really true.
For the record, I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and Rossi has got This Sh#T in the Bag! That would be really cool! It still wouldn't change the fact that at this point, there is a distinct smell of trout in the air.
Rossi is the easiest to blame only because he was the first to make some big claims. Now there are others and people still go after Rossi?
I think before anyone else goes after Rossi, it might be wise to watch the two YouTube videos from Brillouin corp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7pInnbzhG0&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B63_I616khU&feature=related
Here's a good E-Cat article from an ex-military guy that appears to be taken seriously. He posted it on April 13, 2012 and he got 760 responses so far.
http://ecatnews.com/?p=2184
A 45MW eCat Delusion? April 13, 2012Fifteen months ago, I believed that come October 2011 we would know the reality or otherwise of Andrea Rossi’s eCat. The 1MW demo was interesting but left gaps you could drive a ship through. Importantly, the meta data was not as solid as we had hoped, prime among the disappointments being the ‘need’ to keep the customer secret. Never mind, we were told, the next customer is happy to sing â€" be assured; the first 1MW plant is gone, accepted by the secret shopper.
We know the story that followed and so I will not repeat the constant promises and disappointments surrounding imminent news on the Rossi or Defkalion front. The latest pronouncements from AR include plans for a 45MW plant and ‘confirmation’ that the 1MW secret customer is military. As a former serving member of the RAF (21 yrs) I cannot wrap my head around the idea that a device destined to change the nature of warfare is left with the manufacturer for over six months to fix a few gaskets or for any other reason at all. Furthermore, we now hear that Defkalion’s next milestone will be the launch of a prototype Hyperion in July. Is that the next milestone after the announcement of the names of the independent testers and the details of their results?
I believe in proof before guilt and I therefore cannot put my hand on my heart and call anyone a fraud. It seems inconceivable to me that so many qualified and experienced people close to Rossi and DGT could have been hoodwinked by a nuclear-driven boiler if it was a lie. After over a year of intimate exposure to the technology, surely one at least would cry foul when the back story did not match the public one? To me, this is the single factor remaining which offers hope and we should keep that front and centre when tempted to assume fraud. Ironically, as the eCat story stretches credulity, optimism for LENR appears to be strengthened. In turn, LENR’s increasing credibility props AR’s claims â€" just a little.
The problem here is not certainty of fraud or the death of hope but that the behaviour of the two main organisations is indistinguishable from those with con men at the helm. As I said above and elsewhere, the supporting strut in this affair that remains somewhat intact is the credibility of the company the eCat keeps. For me, however, that is no longer enough.
I constantly worry about steering people towards imprudent investment which is why I normally add a caveat (such as ‘assuming it is true’) to my posts. This was a compromise I could live with until clarity came our way. After all, no-one would be crazy enough to invest without private proof. Would they?
Recent evidence says otherwise. No-one is responsible for placing such a high-risk bet but the person who makes it. To do so without due diligence seems crazy. Even so, I feel increasingly uncomfortable about offering hope even as I hold the belief that it is still there in modest measure.
Continued. (just follow the link.)
Hi All,
The one thing I've been concerned about is this fuel cell type device getting a UL ( Underwriter Laboratory ) certification for industrial, commercial or residential consumer usage. There seems to be a slight lack of disclosure on the catalysis or electrolyte elements used in the making which is "Palladium" (Pd). This element can be bought as a metal or as coin currency at around $650.00 (USD) oz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium
Quote
Palladium plays a key role in the technology used for fuel cells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell), which combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity, heat, and water.
Here is a good MSDS ( Material Safety Data Sheet ) for Palladium (Pd)
http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/msds/227-palladium
Quote
Extinguishing Media: Flammable in powdered form. Do not use water, CO2 or halogenated extinguishers. Use dry powder extinguishing agents, dry sand or dry ground dolomite.
Special Fire Fighting Procedures: Firefighters must wear full face, self-contained breathing apparatus with full protective clothing to prevent contacts with skin and eyes. Fumes from fire are hazardous. Isolate runoff to prevent environmental pollution.
Unusual Fire & Explosion Hazard: May have an explosive reaction with hydrogen + hydrogen peroxide. May have a reaction with formic acid or sodium tetrahydroborate, releasing flammable and explosive hydrogen gas. May have a violent reaction with isopropyl alcohol and OF2S. Under the proper conditions it undergoes hazardous reactions with aluminum, arsenic, carbon, methanol, ozonides and sulfur. Highly flammable as a finely divided powder.
For those that frequent United States airports and had your carry on liquid looked at ever wonder why? Has anyone ever heard of Hydrogen Peroxide a 40% regent grade like what a hair dresser uses or even a higher grade used as rocket fuel? Has anyone mixed baking soda and vinegar together in a sealed bottle? ???
This type of a fuel cell energy process is not for those faint of heart and is dangerous if not done exactly right without any of it's device control components failing when running at full capacity. This will be a hard sell for residential usage the best one could hope for is a industrial application that can be monitored by trained personnel to get a UL certification.
I'm not saying it's impossible .... but this isn't a modified OxyHydrogen (HHO) cell experimenters want to reverse build and place one in their basement to heat the home, even that is kind of nutty on it's own if you ever seen one explode. :o
Cheers,
FuzzyTomCat
;)
Lumen,
thanks for the Brillouin links earlier, that's about the best theory behind the LENR effect I have come across so far,
so I would like to highlight those links to anyone really interested in what may go within the lattice in a so called LENR.
We all know that the scientific community of today agrees that there is no way to overcome the coloumbic repulsion of hydrogen
within a metallic lattice. What the scientific community have missed is that LENR really does not threaten this fact.
All this fuzz over the years between hot fusion and the LENR would end the moment LENR became acknowledged as as nuclear process
not related to the traditional concept of fusion.
It would really just need a little more open minded outlook from todays nuclear scientists,
and maybe a bit less Cern type high speed collision dependence of their theories.
Both links by Lumen are great, the first one giving a simple and excellent visualization about the lattice compression effect
on the energy level of the hydrogen involved and the resulting endotherm reaction converting energy to mass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7pInnbzhG0&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7pInnbzhG0&feature=player_embedded)
The second video link initially posted by Lumen is an detailed description why it is not neccessary to overcome coloumbic repulsion,
since it is not fusion as currently defined.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B63_I616khU&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B63_I616khU&feature=related)
It sure will be interesting to follow the developement of insights in nuclear science when the proos finally get their hands on an e-cat.
Will they get to same conclusions as above, or will they find something even more amazing?
Gwandau
@Everyone:
A U.S. Senator is finally interested enough to check into the legitimacy of cold fusion personally. He traveled to MIT to have a first hand look at a successful cold fusion experiment in progress. In fact, it has been in progress (and producing anomalous excess heat) for over two months now!
Here's an excerpt from the article:
"Cold Fusion Times is reporting that Massachusetts Senate Minority Leader Bruce Tarr was hosted at MIT by Professor Peter Hagelstein and Dr. Mitchell Swartz who demonstrated their JET Energy cold fusion paladium-zirconium based NANOR system which has reportedly been able to show a continuous production of excess heat for over two months."
The full article can be found here:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/mits-hagelstein-demos-jet-energy-cold-fusion-to-mass-state-senator-tarr/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/mits-hagelstein-demos-jet-energy-cold-fusion-to-mass-state-senator-tarr/)
Enjoy,
Chess
@Gwandau & Lumen:
We now know that public opinion is rapidly changing concerning LENR and Rossi's E-Cat to a supportive one. It appears that "the sudden increase in human consciousness globally" is taking shape around us with unstoppable momentum.
As the poll I recently posted (with over 4000-plus participants) clearly indicates, disinformation and suppression of the emerging technology is failing miserably.
There are those who would like to dismiss the poll results I posted as merely "preaching to the choir", however, 19% of the participants of that 4000-plus poll voted in favor of the idea that Rossi was a fraud and the E-Cat is just part of his elaborate scam. Now could the 19% be considered the baratone section of the choir? If so, I think that their membership in the choir might just be revoked.
Now beyond public opinion is the increasing support of Nobel Prize winning and top NASA scientists. It is clear that this is no longer a "Rossi says so..." energy revolution anymore :o
I checked out the Brillouin videos and I was also impressed by their presentations. It is key to note that they NOW HAVE independent 3rd party confirmation of their process which the skeptics are demanding so the following quote is dedicated to them:
"Brillouin’s process has been independently tested and confirmed by the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and Dr. Michael McKubre SRI or the Stanford Research Institute. Note neither George, Godez or Allen has been able to provide confirmation of these claims which have been floating around for months."
Here's the link:
http://coldfusion3.com/ (http://coldfusion3.com/)
What is unfolding is an undeniable discovery in modern science that is capable of altering the entire world at every level.
Best Regards,
Chess
Well, It seems to me it's all over now. That silence everyone was hearing was indeed the wooshing of all the scrambling behind the sceens of major companies.
Now Mitsubishi?
http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?resId=5&materialId=slides&confId=177379 (http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?resId=5&materialId=slides&confId=177379)
Just as everyone here thought! Except of course the sceptics who were wrong.
I wonder what CROW taste like, MileHIgh?
I noticed the date at the bottom of first slide is 2002. The last slide date is 2011. It seems they have been working on this for some time?
Lumen:
QuoteJust as everyone here thought! Except of course the sceptics who were wrong.
I wonder what CROW taste like, MileHIgh?
It's all very fascinating and the thought that the dream of alchemy - the transmutation of elements - seems to be being reported in many places without using hot nukes makes one stop and wonder.
However, for the Mitsubishi report, it looks by one graph they are working on the order of 10^14 atoms/cm^2. If you remember your high school chemistry, a Mole is 6.02 x 10^23 atoms. So they are nine orders of magnitude off from something more practical in terms of transmuting elements or producing power. At the same time, I realize that all of this is still in it's infancy.
Based on your stance, I will assume that you are 100% certain that before the end of this year Rossi or Defkalion or one of the other players will offer 100% undisputed and absolutely credible and convincing proof that a home/commercial LENR reactor is real and available. Correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.
If I am correct in my assumption then you yourself might worry about eating CROW on December 31, 2012. (If we are still here.)
MileHigh
MileHigh:
I am saying that I am 100% convinced that LENR is real and capable of replacing current energy sources. To get a LENR device into your home by the end of the year is a hopeful leap! I am sure the entire politics of the event may in itself take more than a year.
If you build it, they will come! But who is it that will be knocking? Already a single nobody "Gary W." tried to cause delays in progress for Rossi and he is nobody.
What's going to happen with patent wars, politics, buyouts, burnouts, bailouts or whatever else is about to happen in the cut throat US, will for sure take a toll on progress.
In any case, I have my name on the list of the first to try one out whenever they arrive!
Lumen:
Were we hopefully have common ground is this: You saw how there are millions of tonnes of nickel produced each year. And of course we know that hydrogen is readily available. So if this is all real, it will indeed be exciting, very exciting.
I don't buy all of the "Big Oil MIB" cliches. In simple terms if the energy sector represents say 5% of the economy, that means that 95% of the economy consists of energy consumers. There is just no way that this can be stopped if it is real. If you run a multi billion dollar corporation producing aluminum, and your energy costs represent 80% of your production costs (the aluminum industry consumes more electrical energy than any other entity in the US economy) and there is a way for you to get those energy costs reduced by 75%, you better believe it that it will happen. The free market will ensure that it happens.
So if it's real the real solution is LENR reactors replacing nukes. So no changes to the electrical distribution infrastructure, just new power plants. This concept of small home-based power plants would just be an intermediate step. The read deal will be power production on an industrial scale.
It would become the age of the Jetson's. It would be amazing if the cost of energy dropped by a factor of 10. You could turn the desert green and feed the world.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 02, 2012, 09:30:30 PM
Photons are normally considered massless particles Rosemary, that's the point. No surprise that you won't even acknowledge my points about the normal, standard, universally understood frame of reference for these discussions. No concessions from you.
But a big concession is looming on another thread.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 04, 2012, 11:52:45 AM
Gravityblock:
The problem is that these are your personal theories and I am going to assume that you don't have anything to back them up. You cannot extend the concept of electromagnetic radiation to the weak nuclear force. From what I understand the strong force and the weak force can be compared to gravitational force, but only acting at very short distances, and they are not comparable to electromagnetic radiation. There is no "wavelength" or "intensity" or propagation through a medium associated with the weak force to make the weak force analogous to EM radiation. Your comparison is not valid in my opinion.
MileHigh
Photons are not massless inside superconductors. Photons are slowed down inside superconductors and behave as if they have real mass. My comparison to the weak nuclear force with the electromagnetic force is valid according to a Nobel Prize Winner and the modern theory on electroweak interactions. The weak nuclear force is compared to the electromagnetic forces and photons inside superconductors. Short-range force. Heavy particles. Sound familiar? It should. Those are exactly the properties of electromagnetic forces and photons inside superconductors.
The modern theory of electroweak interactions is heavily invested in the analogy between what happens to photons inside superconductors and the observed properties of W and Z bosons in the cosmos. According to this part of the Core theory,
the entity we perceive as empty space (the Grid) is a super conductor. This is not my own personal theory and you shouldn't be assuming something which you know nothing of.
Frank Wilczek is a Nobel Prize Winner and he is considered one of the world’s most eminent theoretical physicists. He is known, among other things, for the discovery of asymptotic freedom and the development of quantum chromodynamics (QCD). He's also an official advisor to CERN and to Daedalus.
According to Wilczek and the standard model, photons inside superconductors are slowed-down and behave as particles with real mass.Below is a quote from Frank Wilczek in his book titled, "The Lightness of Being: Mass, Ether, and Unification of the Forces". Also, Since photons acquire real mass inside superconductors and the W & Z bosons are heavy particles with similar properties, then they will have a much lower velocity and momentum without having the full penetrating force, thus the term 'low level gamma radiation'.
Quote from: Frank Wilczek
The model Nature gives us for making force-carrying particles heavy is superconductivity. For inside superconductors, photons become heavy! Here’s the essential idea. Photons are moving disturbances in electric and magnetic fields. In a superconductor, electrons respond vigorously to electric and magnetic fields. The electrons’ attempt to restore equilibrium is so vigorous that they exert a kind of drag on the fields’ motion. Instead of moving at the usual speed of light, therefore, inside a superconductor photons move more slowly. It’s as if they’ve acquired inertia. When you study the equations, you find that the slowed-down photons inside a superconductor obey the same equations of motion as would particles with real mass.
......
............
................
Cosmic Superconductivity: Electroweak Layer
The weak interaction is a short-range force. The fields responsible for this force, the W and Z, are similar in many ways to the electromagnetic field. The particles that arise as disturbances in these fields (the W and Z particles) resemble photons. Like photons, they are bosons. Like photons, they respond to chargesâ€"not electric charges to be sure, but what we’ve called green and purple charges, with similar physical properties. Their most obvious difference from photons is that W and Z are heavy particles. (Each weighs about as much as one hundred protons.)
Short-range force. Heavy particles. Sound familiar? It should. Those are exactly the properties of electromagnetic forces and photons inside superconductors. The modern theory of electroweak interactions is heavily invested in the analogy between what happens to photons inside superconductors and the observed properties of W and Z bosons in the cosmos. According to this part of the Core theory, the entity we perceive as empty spaceâ€"the Gridâ€"is a super conductor. Even though the conceptual and mathematical parallels run very deep, Grid superconductivity differs from conventional superconductivity in four main ways:
Occurrence: Conventional superconductivity requires special materials and low temperatures. Even the new “high temperature†superconductors max out at less than 200 Kelvin (room temperature is about 300 Kelvin). Grid superconductivity is everywhere, and has never been observed to break down. Theoretically, it should persist up to about 1016 Kelvin.
Scale: The photon mass inside a conventional superconductor is 10â€"11 proton masses, or less. The W and Z masses are about 102 proton masses.
What Flows: The super-currents of conventional superconductivity are flows of electric charge. They cause electromagnetic fields to become short range, and photons to acquire mass. The super-currents of Grid superconductivity are correlated flows of much less familiar types of charge: purple weak charge and hypercharge. W and Z fields can be generated by those flows, so the forces that W and Z generate become short-range, and the W and Z particles acquire mass.
....
........
Quote from: MileHigh on April 15, 2012, 08:33:52 PM
This is from the Wikipedia entry on the Energy Catalyzer:
That Coulomb barrier is what I referred to a few days ago where I said that the hydrogen nucleus and the nickel nucleus have to heading towards each other with unbelievably high speed to overcome the electrostatic repulsion.
Note what they state: "In particular, the Coulomb barrier for the claimed fusion reaction is so high that it is unsurpassable anywhere in the known universe, including the interior of stars."
Myself as a lay person, and many other nuclear scientists, don't believe that there is some "other way" to work around this fundamental problem. If the whole thing "blows up" and two years from now Rossi and Defkalion are disgraced names that are no better than Mylow, it will be because of the Coulomb barrier.
MileHigh
The work around is by using the weak nuclear force to exploit the superconductivity of space along with the
unknown Coulomb forces. The known repulsive Coulomb force between like charges operates over a long-range like the electromagnetic force, while the unknown attractive Coulomb force between like charges operates over a short-range like the weak nuclear force. Between opposite charges, then there is an unknown repulsive Coulomb force operating over a short-range.
BCS theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCS_theory), proposed by Bardeen, Cooper, and Schrieffer (BCS) in 1957, is the first microscopic theory of superconductivity since its discovery in 1911. The theory describes superconductivity as a microscopic effect caused by a condensation of pairs of electrons into a boson-like state. The theory is also used in nuclear physics to describe the pairing interaction between nucleons in an atomic nucleus. BCS theory starts from the assumption that there is some attraction between electrons,
which can overcome the Coulomb repulsion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCS_theory#More_details).
There are both attractive and repulsive coulomb forces between charges as suggested by the BCS Theory on superconductivity and the works of Ioannis Xydous in his publication titled "The secret of the Electron-Positron pair (http://www.ioannisxydous.gr/SEPPv3.pdf)".
Gravock
Quote from: MileHigh on April 22, 2012, 11:41:54 PM
You could turn the desert green and feed the world.
MileHigh
we can do this now... instead we choose to allow our leaders to spend
trillions building instruments of warfare and destruction. the future we have to look forward to is limited and partially ruinous warfare... with or without LENR.
Rossi claims that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the nuclear process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you.
Gravock
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on April 20, 2012, 02:00:36 PM
Hi All,
The one thing I've been concerned about is this fuel cell type device getting a UL ( Underwriter Laboratory ) certification for industrial, commercial or residential consumer usage. There seems to be a slight lack of disclosure on the catalysis or electrolyte elements used in the making which is "Palladium" (Pd). This element can be bought as a metal or as coin currency at around $650.00 (USD) oz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium)
QuotePalladium plays a key role in the technology used for fuel cells, which combine hydrogen and oxygen to produce electricity, heat, and water.
Cheers,
FuzzyTomCat
;)
Palladium can also be salvaged at a low cost in catalytic converters and other components. Atomic hydrogen is extremely important in LENR's. According to the literature, the evidence points to the LENR's occurring at the surface of the materials and not in the bulk of the materials. This reaction is found only in small pockets of superconductivity in Palladium.
Atomic hydrogen can externally bond to the cage of the fullerenes. This external bond to the surface of the fullerenes is where the LENR's are occuring which is due to trace amounts of fullerenes being present at the surface of the materials. The materials can be etched or other processes used to create large amounts of fullerenes at the surface in order to have larger pockets of superconductivity.
Below is a few quotes I found in a publication titled, "Hydrogen-induced disintegration of fullerenes and nanotubes (http://www.pa.msu.edu/cmp/csc/eprint/DT200.pdf)".
Quote from: Page 2Calculations at higher coverages suggest that after the first two atoms are adsorbed, additional hydrogens should preferentially adsorb along straight lines on the substrate. We believe that formation of this energetically preferred adsorption pattern can be achieved by surface diffusion of hydrogen atoms at temperatures found during many hydrogenation reactions since the activation barrier for sigmatropic rearrangement of chemisorbed hydrogen atoms is only ~1 eV. Even though there are no preferential adsorption sites on a carbon nanotube, atomic hydrogen is believed to adsorb preferentially along lines parallel to the axis of the outermost tube to release stress.
Quote from: Page 2Molecular hydrogen does not dissociate on planar graphene, but does so with an energy gain on fullerenes, with the dissociated hydrogen pair preferentially binding on top of adjacent carbon atoms.
Quote from: Page 3We found that the energy needed to break one bond is larger than the energy to break two adjacent bonds, shown in a dark color in the left panel of Fig. 2(c). Continuing this concerted bond breaking mechanism should cleave the edge, causing the structure to disintegrate
Quote from: Page 3Consequently, the calculated transition paths for the disintegration of hydrogenated fullerenes and nanotubes represent the optimum cleavage path in unconstrained systems. Following an initial energy investment of 1.7 eV, the bonds break abruptly, leading to the final structure depicted in the right panel of Fig. 2(c). There is a net energy gainof ~2 eV associated with the bond breaking , caused by releasing the accumulated stress.
Quote from: Page 3-4Our results indicate that the energy barrier to propagate the fracture decreases at successive steps. As a matter of fact, it may be reasonable to assume that the energy released following the initial step may activate the zipperlike cleavage at the crease without further energy investment. Once cleavage is initiated, the unzipping process transforms the stressed crease into two overlapping graphene edges in an exothermic reaction.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on April 23, 2012, 12:18:04 PM
The Palladium can be etched or other processes used to create large amounts of fullerenes at the surface of the metal in order to have larger pockets of superconductivity.
Gravock
A common method used to produce fullerenes is to send a large current between two nearby graphite electrodes in an inert atmosphere. The resulting carbon plasma arc between the electrodes cools into sooty residue from which
many fullerenes can be isolated. A cheap source would be from candle soot, then we could coat the metals with the fullerenes where the dissociated hydrogen pair can bind to the carbon atoms
during the hydrogenation process.
Here's a patent on isolating fullerenes. It mentions that fullerenes in soot (contained in a quartz vessel) can be evaporated by microwaves in seconds. The fullerenes gas (brown stuff) then condenses on the walls of the vessel (United States Patent 5458742) (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5458742.html)
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on April 23, 2012, 04:39:00 AM
...
There are both attractive and repulsive coulomb forces between charges as suggested by the BCS Theory on superconductivity and the works of Ioannis Xydous in his publication titled "The secret of the Electron-Positron pair (http://www.ioannisxydous.gr/SEPPv3.pdf)".
Gravock
Although I frankly admit Mr Ioannis Xydous is presenting a theory somewhat more educated than myself, since we've come to discuss basic blocks like light speed in electrostatic fields, please note that experiments for testing it were proposed (and probably conducted) long time ago. Here is one link: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0703/0703271.pdf (http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0703/0703271.pdf)
I've never heard of any experimental confirmation... Do you?
Keep up the good work here,
Tinu
Quote from: gravityblock on April 23, 2012, 11:36:42 AM
Rossi claims that the radio frequency generator allows the forces that would normally prevent the nuclear process from taking place (Coulomb forces) to work for you, and not against you.
Gravock
Indeed Rossi claimed that but some honorable observers (I can't recall exactly who did that but it's written down) reported that inside the control box were only passive electronic components (like capacitors etc) and rectifiers.
IMHO:
1. It's quite a trick to generate radio frequencies with passive components alone, don't you think?!
2. Why rectifiers when the only clear purpose is to resistively heat the core?!
Therefore, I'd take that claim of Mr Rossi with a grain of salt...
Best regards,
Tinu
Take pure nickel powder, hydrogen, high temperatur and high pressure, ... it's not so easy:
This has already been done during production of the nickel powder! There must be further tricks.
http://www.sulzermetco.com/en/DesktopDefault.aspx/tabid-4034/7686_read-17387/ (http://www.sulzermetco.com/en/DesktopDefault.aspx/tabid-4034/7686_read-17387/)
Sulzer Metco has been manufacturing consistently high quality nickel powders for over 35 years and is a leading supplier of very pure (> 99.8%) specialty nickel powders.We are also a supplier of nickel clad composite powders with metallic and non-metallic cores and other metal clad composite powders ranging in size from 20 to over 300 micrometers. Given our long experience in manufacturing nickel powders and metal clad composite materials, you can feel confident in our ability to surpass your needs with every lot.
Our pure nickel powders are produced by pressure hydrometallurgy. The nickel powders are precipitated from a solution of nickel by the introduction of hydrogen gas at high pressure and temperature. The high purity product is free of contaminants at levels usually found in pyrometallurgy. The nickel powders produced are spheroidal with a pebbly surface. By changing the process conditions, it is possible to modify and control the shape of the particle and surface morphology.
E-Fillâ,,¢ 1231 is a fine grade (95% -44 µm or -325 ASTM mesh) pure nickel powder that has a closely controlled particle size distribution. E-Fillâ,,¢ 2726 is a low density alternative to pure nickel powders.
@cubalibre:
Yours is a very fortunate type of business to be in as I predict the value of your product will rise with the significant increase in demand this new technology (LENR) will trend towards. I have made a note of your website for future reference as your product is of such high quality.
Quote from: cubalibre on April 23, 2012, 03:53:57 PM
Take pure nickel powder, hydrogen, high temperatur and high pressure, ... it's not so easy:
This has already been done during production of the nickel powder! There must be further tricks.
Yes, there are at least two other "tricks". One is the introduction of an electrical frequency (at least it is my opinion that it is electrical and not radio frequency) which may not actually be the case. The second is a secret catalyst which is being purposely withheld as a trade secret of the inventor.
Best Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
Another article that echos sentiment of the new LENR revolution is hot off the press today. The following is a selected excerpt:
"Even the most hardened sceptic who has been witnessing the events in the world of LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reactions) recently could not have failed to notice that things are getting serious. It is no longer reasonable to question whether or not excess heat is produced - if you have half a braincell, then you already know it simply is.The debate now centers on how much excess energy, and how quickly can it be commercialized."
LINK:
http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2012/04/race-is-on-lenr-now-allowed-to-prosper.html (http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2012/04/race-is-on-lenr-now-allowed-to-prosper.html)
Enjoy,
Chess
P.S. I find the last paragraph of this article very interesting concerning "the trillion dollar energy industry". Reeling this in just seems a bit too easy. It's as if the shark has gone under the boat.
@Everyone:
This is by far my favorite article as of yet! This was just released today by oilprice.com and I must say, I am blown away by the additional details released by Brillouin in an interview with its (oilprice.com) staff. Some of the information is just a repeat.
Like I said before, when it rains good news, it pours!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Here's some selected excerpts:
"The new leader is Brillouin Energy with a new process named the Hot Tube Boiler. Sterling Allen at PESN interviewed Brillouin’s Robert W. George II, CEO; and the inventor, Robert Godes, the Chief Technology Officer. Mr. Allen learned Brillouin has had two significant independent validations of their scientific model and claims. One of those was by Los Alamos National Laboratories. The other was by Dr. Michael McKubre of Stanford Research International (SRI), who subsequently joined their board of advisors."
So it's clear that Dr. McKubre is no longer an independent validator. He has actually joined the company. 8)
"What puts Brillion out in front first is the temperature output. Brillouin expects the test of the new Hot Tube model at SRI will be capable of delivering steam at temperatures from 400ºC to 500ºC (750-932ºF). These kinds of temperatures are called superheated or deliver “dry steamâ€, a steam form that does not contain water mechanically suspended. Dry steam is what’s needed for generating power and moving heat because it saves a great deal of water and is more efficient. Pressures, especially for turbine drives can be much higher."
This puts them years ahead of Rossi and his E-Cat as Brillouin is able to produce steam temperatures capable of driving current modern steam turbines making power plant retrofits possible using existing equipment. The others don't even plan to offer a boiler as of yet and this company has already incorporated one into the design!
"The second Brillouin advantage is control and predictable output. The Brillouin team noted Dr. McKubre has joined the Brillouin Board of Directors because of the consistency of the results. So far as we know, Brillouin is the first cold fusion or LENR process that is able to repeat tasks every time, without exception."
"Godes noted that 1.024 ml, a volume about the size of a #2 pencil eraser, of water provides as much energy as two 48-gallon drums of gasoline. “That is 355,000 times the amount of energy per volume â€" five orders of magnitude.â€
Now that is IMPRESSIVE!!!! :o ??? :o
"The Brillouin CEO is Robert W. George II, who was a Managing Director at Grosvenor Financial Partners. Mr. George has honest, real and practical experience in bringing startups to market. It’s very likely that George can find a way to get the technology into customer’s hands at a price that’s attractive enough to attract even more customers."
They also have the past experience of Robert George II who knows how to bring startups to market (expediently too).
"The electro-stimulation is more complex than what is presumed to be going on at the E-Cat or Defkalion efforts."
No "radio frequency" discussion here either. Just like I believe, it's electric current pulses at correct frequencies.
"These are high current pulses through the lattice of our CECR reactor. The Q pulses cause electromigration, which means the nickel atoms and the hydrogen ions get moved by passing electrons."
link:
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html (http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/New-LENR-Machine-is-the-Best-Yet.html)
Enjoy,
Chess
Chessnyt:
Here is the key quote:
QuoteFor documentation the suggestion is in the firm’s business summary, “Evidence suggests this reaction involves the synthesis of neutrons, which accumulate on hydrogen dissolved in a matrix (lattice), which progresses to deuterium, then tritium and on to quadrium that decays to helium. In a Brillouin reaction the process is promoted and catalyzed in a highly energized nickel matrix. The process releases thermal energy far in excess of what is possible from chemical reactions. The important feature is that neutrons are generated and accumulate in a comparatively low-energy environment, and this accumulation generates heat.â€
Simply stated, hydrogen in a nickel lattice exposed to Brillouin’s proprietary electro-stimulation will yield heat and at the end, helium.
I have never heard of quadrium, have you? So they are arguing that in a multi-step process you can do "classical" nuclear fusion, from hydrogen to helium. You bypass the coulomb barrier by firing neutrons at hydrogen to get "quadrium" and then one of the four neutrons decays into an electron and a positron and voila! - helium.
It sounds too good to be true and I note that Robert Godes bashes all of the competing LENR technologies.
Time will tell but this one is too fantastical sounding to me. Therefore, the only thing that will convince me is a convincing demo verified by independent third party testers. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 24, 2012, 12:24:35 AM
Chessnyt:
Here is the key quote:
For documentation the suggestion is in the firm’s business summary, “Evidence suggests this reaction involves the synthesis of neutrons, which accumulate on hydrogen dissolved in a matrix (lattice), which progresses to deuterium, then tritium and on to quadrium that decays to helium. In a Brillouin reaction the process is promoted and catalyzed in a highly energized nickel matrix. The process releases thermal energy far in excess of what is possible from chemical reactions. The important feature is that neutrons are generated and accumulate in a comparatively low-energy environment, and this accumulation generates heat.â€
I have never heard of quadrium, have you? So they are arguing that in a multi-step process you can do "classical" nuclear fusion, from hydrogen to helium. You bypass the coulomb barrier by firing neutrons at hydrogen to get "quadrium" and then one of the four neutrons decays into an electron and a positron and voila! - helium.
It sounds too good to be true and I note that Robert Godes bashes all of the competing LENR technologies.
Time will tell but this one is too fantastical sounding to me. Therefore, the only thing that will convince me is a convincing demo verified by independent third party testers. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
MileHigh
@MileHigh:
It's normally referred to as hydrogen-4 and you seriously didn't know this? Even I knew that and this is not even my field of expertise.
"Hydrogen-4 (also less commonly referred to as quadrium) is a highly unstable isotope of hydrogen. The nucleus consists of a proton and three neutrons. It has been synthesised in the laboratory by bombarding tritium with fast-moving deuterium nuclei.[3] In this experiment, the tritium nuclei captured neutrons from the fast-moving deuterium nucleus." link:
http://www.enotes.com/topic/Hydrogen-4 (http://www.enotes.com/topic/Hydrogen-4)
Just because you don't know something doesn't make it false. Be fair now as I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here.
Regards,
Chess
P.S. The key quote you missed was actually this:
"...Brillouin has had two significant independent validations of their scientific model and claims. One of those was by Los Alamos National Laboratories. The other was by Dr. Michael McKubre of Stanford Research International (SRI), who subsequently joined their board of advisors."
Chessnyt:
I am talking about going through an entire life taking chemistry and science courses and reading science literature and watching science programs. In that sense I have never heard about quadrium.
And now I know why I have never heard of quadrium:
Quote4H contains one proton and three neutrons in its nucleus. It is a highly unstable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstable_isotope) isotope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isotope) of hydrogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen). It has been synthesised in the laboratory by bombarding tritium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritium) with fast-moving deuterium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium) nuclei.[4] In this experiment, the tritium nuclei captured neutrons from the fast-moving deuterium nucleus. The presence of the hydrogen-4 was deduced by detecting the emitted protons. Its atomic mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_mass) is 4.02781 ± 0.00011.[5] It decays through neutron emission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_emission) with a half-life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-life) of (1.39 ± 0.10) × 10âˆ'22 seconds.[6]
The reason I have never heard about it is because it has never been worth talking about. It only lasts 10^-22 seconds. How far can a photon travel in 10^-22 seconds? Something like 3 x 10^-14 meters! That's only three ten-thousandths of an angstrom!
What is neutron emission?
QuoteNeutron emission is a type of radioactive decay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay) of atoms containing excess neutrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron), in which a neutron is simply ejected from the nucleus.
Oops! Robert Godes says that a neutron isn't ejected from the nucleus, but instead (like magic perhaps?) it decays into a proton and a beta particle to give you helium and lots of energy. All this happens in 10^-22 seconds!
So it sounds too good to be true.
Quote"...Brillouin has had two significant independent validations of their scientific model and claims. One of those was by Los Alamos National Laboratories. The other was by Dr. Michael McKubre of Stanford Research International (SRI), who subsequently joined their board of advisors."
Even though the name dropping sounds impressive, I still have to call bullshit. You know exactly what I mean. I mean a real, physical demo of the reactor for one month with continuous monitoring by third party independent testers. Nothing else will do.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on April 24, 2012, 01:34:35 AM
Chessnyt:
I am talking about going through an entire life taking chemistry and science courses and reading science literature and watching science programs. In that sense I have never heard about quadrium.
Even though the name dropping sounds impressive, I still have to call bullshit. You know exactly what I mean. I mean a real, physical demo of the reactor for one month with continuous monitoring by third party independent testers. Nothing else will do.
MileHigh
@MileHigh:
Well you march right down to Los Alamos National Laboratories in New Mexico and the Stanford Research International (SRI) and flash them your library card and a note from your mother proving you passed a basic chemistry class and set them straight. Go get 'em tiger! Tell these respected credentialed institutions that you're calling bullshit, which is a very scientific term in farming communities by-the-way ;)
The nerve of those bastards doing INDEPENDANT verifications of science you know MUCH BETTER than they EVER could! Why the nerve of those credentialed scientists! Thank you for enlightening us all. I can now rest better at night knowing you're the top authority in science (much higher than Los Alamos National Laboratories and Stanford Research International (SRI)) who has never even heard of quadrium. At least you have heard of the scientific phrase of "calling bullshit". As you have once again proven that ignorance IS bliss.
Chess
Chessnyt:
Quotehe nerve of those bastards doing INDEPENDANT verifications of science
You have to look at these claims with a critical eye and take a conservative approach:
Quotesignificant independent validations of their scientific model and claims
What does that really say? Does it say they reproduced an experiment and got results? The answer is no it doesn't. For all you know they did phone interviews with those two people and spinned an acknowledgement that there may have been something interesting going on into the above. You will recall that Rossi spinned the fact that he was going to purchase some products from National Instrument into claiming that "he and National Instrument were collaborating together on the project" which was bullshit.
So what I said holds true - independently verifiable testing, nothing less. How could you possibly be against that because if the claim is true it will advance the cause?
And what I now know is that the only H-4 that has existed on Earth is in atom smashers and it lasts for 10^-22 seconds. And that's why I have never heard of it, presumably along with a lot of other science-minded people. I also just did the Google search on quadrium and basically nothing comes up.
You have to start using your critical thinking skills and stop just blindly believing stuff that you want to believe. Use your wits and your computer to make good decisions.
MileHigh
Chess,
thanks for all your efforts in getting us updated on the LENR movement, and I admire your seemingly endless tolerans
when replying to the poor pessimist MileHigh, who seems unable to get onto the accelerating train of revolutionary events
due to his incapacity to take in what's actually happening all around him.
The sorrowful chap will unfortunately have to wait until his long awaited demand of a third party evaluation gets published,
but then he will have missed all the great moments in these early stages that the rest of us here enjoys.
I don't envy him, you know, for every new report published about new actors on the global scene of successful LENR progress,
poor MileHigh will have to add another scammer to his record, and another scammer, and so on, until almost everybody
are ugly scammers out to fool him and rip him off.
As for myself, I have as for the time being terminated all further communication with him.
Now to some really exciting stuff, namely LENT.
The most intriguing research initiated in the wake of the global LENR progress is LENT.
LENT (Low Energy Nuclear Transmutations) will probably develope into a completely new outlook on nuclear physics.
Among many other actors going into LENT research is Mitsubishi who are looking far beyond palladium, platinum and nickel.
Quoting Mitsubishi from the LENR colloqium at Cern:
“D2 gas permeation through nano-structured Pd multilayer film makes it possible to induce nuclear transmutation
under low pressure and low temperature condition.â€
Mitsubishi indicates that there may well be Low Energy Nuclear Transmutations or “LENT†across a much larger part of
the element table that any of us have been thinking so far.
Can you guys imagine what this will mean to mankind?
LENT may be the biggest discovery since the wheel, suddenly giving us the full power to transmute any element
into anything needed, like Mitsubishis suggestion of the transmutation of radioactive materials into harmless elements.
What Enrico Fermi once famously said, “Give me enough neutrons and I shall give you the Entire Periodic Table.†,
may soon become reality.
Most of this material is found in the article "CERN Has A LENR Colloquium" found at :
http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2012/03/26/cern-has-a-lenr-colloquium/ (http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2012/03/26/cern-has-a-lenr-colloquium/)
Below is an interesting 40-page PDF presentation by Yogendra Srivastava from the University of Perugia.
http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?resId=1&materialId=slides&confId=177379 (http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?resId=1&materialId=slides&confId=177379)
And here is more PDF:s from the Cern conference:
http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.py?materialId=slides&confId=177379&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (http://indico.cern.ch/materialDisplay.py?materialId=slides&confId=177379&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)
We are just experiencing the tip of the iceberg in this early stage of the LENR movement.
When the avalanche starts, everybody will know.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
This "sorrowful chap" believes in doing proper due diligence for things that sound too good to be true.
You have also shown your true colours. First of all I believe that you linked to that "Freeenergytruth" blog, and many people consider that to be a blog that has no credibility. The guy who runs it was a rabid believer in Steorn and many other suspect "technologies" that were just good old fashioned cons.
In the brand new thread, "MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH BY PHILLIPS - HIGHLY EFFICIENT HYDROGEN PRODUCTION! (http://www.overunity.com/../../../../../../11985/major-breakthrough-by-phillips-highly-efficient-hydrogen-production/msg320202/#new)" people have already debunked it. Your comments to Tinu include "Are you a troll, or just having not read the Phillips papers?" and "Which side are you on?"
However, the valid technical argument has been made. The system uses aluminum powder and the fact of the matter is that it takes massive amounts of electrical energy to produce aluminum. So aluminum itself represents stored chemical energy. I know that's a hard thing for some people to visualize but it's true. So there is no breakthrough associated with that hydrogen production system, none. You apparently don't want to believe that. That's very telling.
I stand by everything that i have said so far and I am certainly not in ignorant bliss. Any controversial energy production system has to prove itself in real life and be proved in the field with independent testing.
MileHigh
@Gwandau:
Thank you for your insightful input into the discussion here. I am still pouring over some of the papers (the .PDF files) on Widom and to me this is most fascinating. Very good material!
Quote from: Gwandau on April 24, 2012, 07:50:07 PM
thanks for all your efforts in getting us updated on the LENR movement, and I admire your seemingly endless tolerans when replying to the poor pessimist MileHigh, who seems unable to get onto the accelerating train of revolutionary events due to his incapacity to take in what's actually happening all around him.
I absolutely agree with you here. At one point, MileHigh finally conceded to the fact that there are positive results being reported from LENR experiments, however, this is just not good enough for me. I thought I saw hope in the man. I thought I saw something good but I am sorry to say that I was terribly wrong. And when I'm wrong, I will admit it openly.
I have likewise decided to no longer engage MileHigh as this is simply a waste of my time as was intended from the beginning. I am human after all and I will not contest with any person indefinitely.
I appreciate your contributions to this revolutionary cause. I look forward to further intelligent exchanges with you.
Best Regards,
Chess
Boys:
That whole bit where you say, "I am not going to talk to you, I am going to ignore you" is gross. It smacks of the debasement and dehumanization of others that don't share our opinion or are different from us and we all know where that can lead. It's a "Moonie" kind of thing and I view it as a cop-out. It's intellectual dishonesty and both of you should think about that seriously.
Stick your heads in the sand if you want to but that's going to get you nowhere and it's not going to change anything. I simply want to see real proof and there are many scientists that know a lot more about this subject matter than me that share my opinion.
You are both trapped in your own logical contradiction. You believe it's real therefore you believe that any unbiased testing by independent third-party testers will prove that the technology is valid yet you both object to someone questioning the technology and asking for independent third-party testing.
MileHigh
Anyone aware of a claim of an Italian Highschool to have obtained LENR with Tungsten powder and a quite simple setup?
They mentioned COP of > 4.
It's in italian, so please use Google translate to read it in English or other language:
http://22passi.blogspot.com/2012/04/lathanor-delliis-pirelli-di-roma-1.html (http://22passi.blogspot.com/2012/04/lathanor-delliis-pirelli-di-roma-1.html)
I use Google Chrome to have an easy build-in translation option.
The English translated building instructions can be found here:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/english-translation-of-build-instructions-for-pirelli-athanor-cell/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/04/english-translation-of-build-instructions-for-pirelli-athanor-cell/)
I have attached the pdf file of it here.
I sure hope they did not make any mistakes in their calorie calculations.
This reminds me of an earlier experiment shown at Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLUeGX3hNpU
Thanks teslaalset. I wasn't aware you had done this one. I did a couple translations on this and put them in PDF over here also:
http://www.overunity.com/12281/open-source-cold-fusion-replication-plans-now-available/msg320275/#new
Like I said in that thread: it's great to see a wave like this. I can feel the walls crumbling. Between Rossi, Defalion, and several other big companies chessnyt has mentioned here this is going to be an unstoppable wave. Getting students involved like this will help keep the wave building.
Dear Teslaalset and e2matrix ,
please illuminate me on this interesting Pirelli Athanor Cell and its relation to LENR.
What makes this electrolysis cell with a plasma arc equivalent to a LENR device?
I'm sorry, but I seem to be ignorant of any nuclear reaction happening here.
Gwandau
Quote from: tinu on April 23, 2012, 03:07:05 PM
Although I frankly admit Mr Ioannis Xydous is presenting a theory somewhat more educated than myself, since we've come to discuss basic blocks like light speed in electrostatic fields, please note that experiments for testing it were proposed (and probably conducted) long time ago. Here is one link: http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0703/0703271.pdf (http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0703/0703271.pdf)
I've never heard of any experimental confirmation... Do you?
Keep up the good work here,
Tinu
I believe there is experimental confirmation at this time based on overwhelming experimental observations.
1.) Photons are slowed down inside superconductors.
2.) The speed of light is slowed down in the electronic structure of the atom to a velocity of 1,094,000 m/s (the quantum transitional speed) which has been observed in LENR's, anti-gravity, and other experiments which can be found by researching Frank Znidarsic's work (http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html).
3.) IBM has created a chip that can slow down light (http://news.cnet.com/IBM-slows-light,-readies-it-for-networking/2100-1008_3-5928541.html), the latest advance in an industry wide effort to develop computers that will use only a fraction of the energy of today's machines. The chip, called a photonic silicon waveguide, is a piece of silicon dotted with arrays of tiny holes. Scattered systematically by the holes, light shown on the chip slows down to 1/300th of its ordinary speed of 186,000 miles per second. In a computer system, slower light pulses could carry data rapidly, but in an orderly fashion.
The light can be further slowed by applying an electric field to the waveguide. 3.) At the microscale, an electromagnetic wave's phase speed is slowed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refractive_index#Microscopic_explanation) in a material
because the electric field creates a disturbance in the charges of each atom (primarily the electrons) proportional to the
electric susceptibility of the medium. This isn't the best example, but how can we have an electric field without having a medium which is made of matter (http://www.howeverythingworks.org/page1.php?QNum=1563)?
4.) IMO, Dr. Stiffler's SEC experiments
may suggest light is slowed down in an electrostatic field, which can produce a broadband of frequencies in multiples of 1,094,000 Mhz. This is my own interpretations of what is being observed and I will agree it doesn't qualify as confirmation, but it is a possibility.
There's overwhelming experimental evidence of light varying in speed inside an electrostatic field. It's in the literature everywhere. But, is this confirmation or not? You could always argue it's not 100% confirmation, but I will accept at this time that light does vary inside an electrostatic field until an experiment proves it wrong.
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on April 25, 2012, 07:57:11 PM
Dear Teslaalset and e2matrix ,
please illuminate me on this interesting Pirelli Athanor Cell and its relation to LENR.
What makes this electrolysis cell with a plasma arc equivalent to a LENR device?
I'm sorry, but I seem to be ignorant of any nuclear reaction happening here.
Gwandau
I am not an expert and just posting some news that may be related.
My personal view:
At the cathode of such setup hydrogen is formed at the surface of Tungsten particles.
This allows diffusion of hydrogen ions into the Tungsten lattice.
Increasing the voltage between cathode and anode such that sparks occur could bring the hydrogen ions within the Tungsten lattice into a more instable situation which could trigger fusion.
Quote from: tinu on April 23, 2012, 03:18:15 PM
Indeed Rossi claimed that but some honorable observers (I can't recall exactly who did that but it's written down) reported that inside the control box were only passive electronic components (like capacitors etc) and rectifiers.
IMHO:
1. It's quite a trick to generate radio frequencies with passive components alone, don't you think?!
2. Why rectifiers when the only clear purpose is to resistively heat the core?!
Therefore, I'd take that claim of Mr Rossi with a grain of salt...
Best regards,
Tinu
Yes, it's quite a trick to generate RF with passive components alone, but it's possible with Dr. Stiffler's "
Passive Spacial Energy Coherence" (PSEC) device when it's tuned to a natural frequency (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0-pPtb-GBM&feature=plcp) and is in a coherence mode. Here's a Ring of Fire Quad Coil (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT6lO6mdvGQ&feature=relmfu) generating an ultra-bandwidth of frequencies over a 400 Mhz range. That is even more impressive. By using three coils, a diode, and small capacitor a circuit is constructed that will oscillate and build to a point of powering LED(s) with no battery and no transistor (http://www.overunity.com/Driving%20LED,%20No%20Battery%20and%20No%20Transistor%20). Is this passive enough for you?
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on April 23, 2012, 12:42:26 PM
A common method used to produce fullerenes is to send a large current between two nearby graphite electrodes in an inert atmosphere. The resulting carbon plasma arc between the electrodes cools into sooty residue from which many fullerenes can be isolated. A cheap source would be from candle soot, then we could coat the metals with the fullerenes where the dissociated hydrogen pair can bind to the carbon atoms during the hydrogenation process.
Here's a patent on isolating fullerenes. It mentions that fullerenes in soot (contained in a quartz vessel) can be evaporated by microwaves in seconds. The fullerenes gas (brown stuff) then condenses on the walls of the vessel (United States Patent 5458742) (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5458742.html)
Gravock
Here's a website with videos of a Nano-dust fusion reactor (http://greentechinfo.eu/?p=15) using a quartz vessel with microwaves and fullerenes. Nano-dust fusion publication (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=nano-dust+fusion+reactor&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgreentechinfo.eu%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F01%2FGeorge_Egely_-_Nano_Dust_Fusion_v7.pdf&ei=czSZT6CKH_KI6AHY7JXiBg&usg=AFQjCNGfYKdWLXvZ9z2kJ6DIVRGp7Xrv7A&cad=rja). Nasa has filed for a patent using Nickel and Carbon. The carbon is more than likely C
60 or fullerenes.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on April 26, 2012, 07:21:11 AM
By using three coils, a diode, and small capacitor a circuit is constructed that will oscillate and build to a point of powering LED(s) with no battery and no transistor (http://www.overunity.com/Driving%20LED,%20No%20Battery%20and%20No%20Transistor%20). Is this passive enough for you?
Gravock
The above link isn't correct. Obviously nobody gives a f**** or somebody would have noticed a bad link. Here's the corrected link even though nobody is clicking it, Powering LED(s) with no battery and no transistor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIIhgHTEoM0&list=UUxQ_yn555DrtjUpngG9SeRQ&index=81&feature=plcp). This forum is a waste of time.
Gravock
There are those of us that tried that link,
and didn't want to bother you about it,
and moved on to your other links...
Congratulations!
You've invented the Crystal Radio !!
Quote from: TinselKoala on April 27, 2012, 09:03:26 AM
Congratulations!
You've invented the Crystal Radio !!
It's a little more than that, but there really is nothing new under the sun is there, including your own ignorance? Maybe you can explain this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG6OlJ1D4GY&list=UUxQ_yn555DrtjUpngG9SeRQ&index=21&feature=plcp). Does this fit into either transverse or longitudinal?
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on April 27, 2012, 12:15:25 PM
Maybe you can explain this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG6OlJ1D4GY&list=UUxQ_yn555DrtjUpngG9SeRQ&index=21&feature=plcp). Does this fit into either transverse or longitudinal?
Gravock
I'll give you a hint. The strength and range of both the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces have been modified and has converged with each other. The proof of this is the Z series which is generated when the exciter is in coherence mode. The Z series is based on multiples of the quantum transitional speed of 1,094,000 m/s. This convergence is how the coulomb forces can be made to work for you and not against you.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on April 27, 2012, 12:15:25 PM
It's a little more than that, but there really is nothing new under the sun is there, including your own ignorance? Maybe you can explain this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG6OlJ1D4GY&list=UUxQ_yn555DrtjUpngG9SeRQ&index=21&feature=plcp). Does this fit into either transverse or longitudinal?
Gravock
he won't touch it... he is scared to. i've been trying for over two years to get him to do something worthy instead of toying with people he considers 'losers':
Quote from: tinselkoala/alsetalokinMeanwhile, I'm concentrating on the easy stuff: gravity wheels, magnet motors, and buoyancy drives (and you can see how hard it is even with these obvious losers). So go pick on somebody else, because I'm not interested in arguing with you about "Dr." Stiffler.
Gravityblock:
Quote
I'll give you a hint. The strength and range of both the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces have been modified and has converged with each other. The proof of this is the Z series which is generated when the exciter is in coherence mode. The Z series is based on multiples of the quantum transitional speed of 1,094,000 m/s. This convergence is how the coulomb forces can be made to work for you and not against you.
Not a chance. Everything you see in that clip is just conventional EM energy in action. What is the "Z series?" What is "coherence mode?"
There is no such thing as making coulomb forces work for you. This is not Judo. Electrostatic potential is real and there is no "back door" or "work around" to make the energy barrier go away.
MileHigh
MOST RECENT INTERVIEW WITH ROSSI:
The interview is very recent (the most recent at this moment) and there is no transcript
available as of yet so I decided to simply summarize the interview the best I could. The
link to the full 1 hour 30 minute radio interview is given at the bottom of my summary.
In this interview, Andrea Rossi gives a short summary of his career both before and after
inventing the E-Cat.
Rossi says it (bad things, falsely accused and prosecuted and the loss of 3 generations of
family wealth) may have been that God had allowed this to happen to lead him to the E-Cat
and a new career move. If he were still in his old business, he would have no reason to start a new venture let alone discover the secrets that led him to his commercial E-Cat products.
The technical part of the interview starts with Andrea addressing two of the laws of thermodynamics and how LENR does not violate them. Then he goes into technical (I would say of medium difficulty level to understand) specifics concerning the reaction that occurs inside the E-Cat's reaction chamber.
In the course of this technical discussion, Rossi makes it clear that he is not using
deuterium (or heavy water) or palladium at all (both of which were used in early cold fusion
experimentation).
I found it interesting that Rossi uses tablets to produce the hydrogen used in his reaction
which is why the bottled hydrogen has been eliminated from the system completely. Before
this explanation, the method for producing the necessary hydrogen absent of bottled
hydrogen was very vague. If he did mention the tablets in an earlier interview, then I must
have overlooked this detail.
A time estimate of 1 years time (minimum) was given with regards to when the E-Cat
technology will be ready to generate electricity, still citing difficulty in reaching high
enough steam temperatures in order to drive a standard steam turbine.
The humanitarian heart (concern) for the poor and the destitute is revealed at one point in
this interview which I was very pleased to hear from a man of science.
HERE'S THE LINK TO THE AUDIO OF THE FULL INTERVIEW:
http://www.westcoasttruth.com/ (http://www.westcoasttruth.com/)
Enjoy,
Chess
Quote from: e2matrix on April 25, 2012, 12:56:08 PM
Thanks teslaalset. I wasn't aware you had done this one. I did a couple translations on this and put them in PDF over here also:
http://www.overunity.com/12281/open-source-cold-fusion-replication-plans-now-available/msg320275/#new (http://www.overunity.com/12281/open-source-cold-fusion-replication-plans-now-available/msg320275/#new)
Like I said in that thread: it's great to see a wave like this. I can feel the walls crumbling. Between Rossi, Defalion, and several other big companies chessnyt has mentioned here this is going to be an unstoppable wave. Getting students involved like this will help keep the wave building.
@e2matrix & teslaalset:
Thank you both for the information regarding the open sourced LENR replication plans. I briefly looked at the thread and this looks very promising. This is how technology is perfected and made available to the builders out there. GREAT STUFF!
I am going to keep on eye on this thread to see if our members are able to get positive results from their replications. It is very exciting to see this technology begin to move to this level (the hands-on level).
Warm Regards,
Chess
Quote from: MileHigh on April 27, 2012, 07:09:04 PM
Gravityblock:
There is no such thing as making coulomb forces work for you. This is not Judo. Electrostatic potential is real and there is no "back door" or "work around" to make the energy barrier go away.
MileHigh
Wiedemann-Franz Law: Physicists Break 150-Year-Old Empirical Laws of Physics (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110720103517.htm)Scientists at the University of Bristol have observed a strong violation of one of the oldest empirical laws of physics which overcomes the repulsive Coulomb force between electrons with no energy to do so. The electrons modify their behavior and split into two distinct components or excitations, one carrying spin
but not charge (the spinon), the other carrying charge but not spin (the holon). They can then move past each other in an extremely crowded environment because there is no energy barrier to overcome due to the Coulomb force. This is the real deal, and I consider this to be one of several 'back doors' or 'work arounds' to make the energy barrier go away. The Coulomb forces can easily be overcome with little to no energy under the right conditions. This is what is real and already proven. It's not what you may think is possible or impossible due to your very narrow and limited thinking. Please stop drinking the bong water. We're no longer stuck in the stone age in case you haven't recognized this yet. Oh, and the earth isn't flat, airplanes can fly, the atomic bomb did go off, and the Coulomb forces can easily be overcome, etc. <------ A few of the many things of the past which were considered impossible actually becoming possible.
Gravock
Quote from: MileHigh on April 27, 2012, 07:09:04 PM
Gravityblock:
What is the "Z series?" What is "coherence mode?"
MileHigh
The Z series is based on Frank Znidarsic's quantum transitional speed of 1,094,000 m/s. The speed of light decreases to 1,094,000 m/s inside the electronic structure of an atom to match the speed of the mechanical waves in the nucleus during a quantum transition. There's a reduction in the EM wave's velocity when it enters an Electrostatic Field. When the photon leaves the Electrostatic Field it can travel at normal constant speed equal to c in a vacuum, but with decreased momentum which
corresponds to the decrement of its frequency. An EM wave oscillating in and out of an electrostatic field will decrease in frequency and momentum until the moment of entropy is reached. This is how Dr. Stiffler's exciter generates the UWB of frequencies in increments of 1,094,000 hertz or in multiples of 1,094,000 hertz, thus the term 'Z series'.
Coherence mode is when the 'Spatial Resonance Frequency' is twice the excitation frequency and the exciter is properly tuned, similar to a parametric oscillator. If it's not in coherence mode, then there are no Z series of frequencies generated.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on April 29, 2012, 04:05:51 AM
Wiedemann-Franz Law: Physicists Break 150-Year-Old Empirical Laws of Physics (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110720103517.htm)
Scientists at the University of Bristol have observed a strong violation of one of the oldest empirical laws of physics which overcomes the repulsive Coulomb force between electrons with no energy to do so. The electrons modify their behavior and split into two distinct components or excitations, one carrying spin but not charge (the spinon), the other carrying charge but not spin (the holon). They can then move past each other in an extremely crowded environment because there is no energy barrier to overcome due to the Coulomb force. This is the real deal, and I consider this to be one of several 'back doors' or 'work arounds' to make the energy barrier go away. The Coulomb forces can easily be overcome with little to no energy under the right conditions. This is what is real and already proven. It's not what you may think is possible or impossible due to your very narrow and limited thinking. Please stop drinking the bong water. We're no longer stuck in the stone age in case you haven't recognized this yet. Oh, and the earth isn't flat, airplanes can fly, the atomic bomb did go off, and the Coulomb forces can easily be overcome, etc. <------ A few of the many things of the past which were considered impossible actually becoming possible.
Gravock
Nice one Gravock,I love it.H.H. Wills Physics Lab Bristol is were I was employed as a electronics engineer in particle Physics and then with Peter Aplin on gravity wave detectors.
Its a good Lab we did some exciting research there.
Milehigh`s Statements are Static they gather Dust.
Dave 8)
Gravityblock:
So we have a mixed bag here and I will cover the issues.
First of all, the frame of reference for the discussion was "Dr." Stiffler's video clip. What does that have to do with some quantum-level behaviour of electrons in highly engineered materials that have certain one-dimensional properties?
The answer to that question is zero, they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Mr. Stiffler is just playing with high frequency oscillators and near-field EM effects. This is all 100% conventional.
That's a classic move that you see all the time around here. Someone does a simple experiment clip, and they or someone else points to some exotic piece of research and tries to make a connection between the two when there is no connection. Why? It makes no sense and it becomes disinformation. Instead of enlightening the readers you end up confusing them.
So I stand by what I said about your comments about Mr. Stiffler's clip: "Not a chance. Everything you see in that clip is just conventional EM energy in action."
Moving on, I am not a quantum physicist. I don't know if splitting an electron into a spinon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinon)
, orbiton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbiton) and the
chargon (or its antiparticle, the
holon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_%28physics%29)) is really a way to create a 'back door' or 'work around' to make the energy barrier go away. It apears to be a special condensed-matter quantum state for the electron when it is in a one-dimensional string of matter. Does that really mean you have overcome the energy barrier or is it completely different and not directly applicable to conventional electrostatic electricity effects?
I don't know the answer to that question because I am not a quantum physicist. I admit that I had never heard about this quantum-level property of an electron.
So what about you Gravityblock, are
you a quantum physicist? How much education have you had in electronics, physics, electromagnetics, and quantum physics? I would really like to know the answer to that question. Or do you just enjoy reading articles about this stuff and are you just an lay person with no special education related to these matters?
QuoteThe Z series is based on Frank Znidarsic's quantum transitional speed of 1,094,000 m/s. The speed of light decreases to 1,094,000 m/s inside the electronic structure of an atom to match the speed of the mechanical waves in the nucleus during a quantum transition.
When I did some searching on this stuff, all of the search results were pseudoscience links from places like alienscientist.com. So my assumption is that this stuff is junk science. I did not see a single link that looked legitimate. You are trying to connect Mr. Stiffler's simple experiments with all of this junk science and it's nonsense as far as I am concerned.
Quoteoherence mode is when the 'Spatial Resonance Frequency' is twice the excitation frequency and the exciter is properly tuned, similar to a parametric oscillator. If it's not in coherence mode, then there are no Z series of frequencies generated.
I think that you are the one that is smoking the bong and then drinking the bong water. Also, for what it's worth, it was the enlightened scientific-minded people in the 19th century that knew that man would be able to fly as soon as they could find an engine that was powerful enough and had a good enough power-to-weight ratio. Many scientific researchers had already done thousands of test flights in big gliders before the Wright brothers flew. That whole "airplanes can fly and bumblebees can fly so look how closed-minded you are" business is misdirected.
MileHigh
don't feed the troll people... he's stuck in his 1970's textbooks and thinks nothing has changed since then. never heard of quadrium... so it doesn't exist. LMFAO it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic. ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfggccwQrcY
@Everyone:
The following are excerpts from a very interesting article:
"In recent months numerous respected scientists have been reporting at scientific gatherings that they are seeing increasing amounts of heat, which can only be coming from nuclear reactions, during experiments with hydrogen loaded into nickel and palladium under the proper conditions.
There have been so many of these reports by reliable and respected scientists that it has become absurd to claim that the phenomenon is fraudulent or that all these scientists are mistaken in their observations. Currently there are at least six different organizations around the world saying they have a commercially useful heat-producing device under development which they will be demonstrating soon."
Once again, there's the mention of quadrium:
"What seems to be happening in this new kind of fusion is that when hydrogen is "loaded" into nickel or palladium and subjected to the proper kind of an electromagnetic pulse, the hydrogen nucleus which is a positively charged proton acquires and electron which turns it into a low energy free neutron. Now a low energy free neutron is something very nice to have for it quickly combines with other protons to form deuterium, tritium and finally quadrium."
The full article can be found here:
http://www.fcnp.com/commentary/national/11682-the-peak-oil-crisis-the-quantum-fusion-hypothesis.html (http://www.fcnp.com/commentary/national/11682-the-peak-oil-crisis-the-quantum-fusion-hypothesis.html)
I decided to post some more links on quadrium in my next post to dispel the false notion that information on quadrium can not be found on the internet.
Enjoy,
Chess
@Everyone:
The following quote is from the same article I posted highlights from yesterday. One highlight that I also wanted to emphasize is the following:
"...Godes says that if the reaction is done properly, the nickel or palladium which are only used as a matrix to hold the hydrogen in one place, are not consumed in the reaction."
Notice that Godes is claiming that NO NICKEL IS CONSUMED in the reaction! This is another feature of his system (besides the better control and boiler built in) that clearly puts him miles in front of the competition as far as performance and versatility are concerned (not to mention the ability to produce high temperature dry steam for the purpose of driving a modern steam turbine).
Here's the links to quadrium I promised:
"Hydrogen - 3
Hydrogen - 3 is also known as tritium that contains 1 proton and 2 neutrons in the nucleus. It is also written as 3H and sometimes symbolically referred as 'T'. This is one of the radioactive isotopes of hydrogen that decays into helium -3 through βâˆ' decay and has a half-life of 12.32 years. It was commonly used as a radiolabel in chemical and biological experiments. It is also used as a thermonuclear fusion weapon and a tracer in isotope geochemistry.
Hydrogen - 4
Hydrogen 4 or 4H is one of the most unstable isotopes of hydrogen. It contains 1 proton and 3 neutrons in the nucleus. It does not occur naturally and is synthesized by bombardment of tritium and fast-moving deuterium nuclei. It is also called quadrium."
link:
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/isotopes-of-hydrogen.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/isotopes-of-hydrogen.html)
"There have also been other isotopes of hydrogen created in the laboratory. These are extremely unstable and have a half life of less than a zeptosecond. These are known as 4H (quadrium), 4.1H (muonic helium), 5H, 6H, 7H. 7H was the last isotope of hydrogen to be discovered and was first synthesized by a group of international students at RIKEN’s RI Beam Science Laboratory in 2003."
link:
http://wanttoknowit.com/how-many-isotopes-does-hydrogen-have/ (http://wanttoknowit.com/how-many-isotopes-does-hydrogen-have/)
"The atom with more neutrons we call- Isotopes. Example.
Hydrogen-1 (protium) Hydrogen-2 (deuterium) Hydrogen-3 (tritium)
Hydrogen-4 (quadrium) Hydrogen-4.1 (Muonic Helium) Hydrogen-5
Hydrogen-6 Hydrogen-7"
link:
http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/Book7/NeutronCreation.htm (http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/Book7/NeutronCreation.htm)
Regards,
Chess
Chessnyt:
QuoteNotice that Godes is claiming that NO NICKEL IS CONSUMED in the reaction!
It sounds too good to be true. So no cold fusion is taking place? Are we back to the tired old argument of energy from nothingness? At least when you argue cold fusion you have an energy source - atomic energy.
QuoteIt does not occur naturally and is synthesized by bombardment of tritium and fast-moving deuterium nuclei.
So one wonders how they make the leap from producing quadrium in a particle accelerator that lasts for a zeptosceond, (One of the Marx Brothers?) to apparently producing it a cylindrical chamber where it stays around long enough to react and do something useful?
It also sounds too good to be true.
Like I said before, you have to take a step back when you hear of these fantastical propositions. Let's see a demo running 30 days straight producing dry steam that powers a generator that powers a 20-kilowatt dummy load consisting of a bunch of oven heating elements cordoned off in a cage.
The bottom line about quadrium is that it's too short-lived to be of any consequence in modern nuclear research. This is my best guess, I am not an expert. It is an isotope that is so obscure that it's is nothing more than a curiosity and they can't do anything useful with it. The only thing that they can do is infer that it exists by looking at the decay products. That's why I have never heard of it.
It's going to be fun to see how this ends up. "World saved" or a bunch of red faces.
MileHigh
@Everyone:
Those who have not been able to read or are purposely trying to mislead the public (take your pick) have been stating that Brillouin's technology is cold fusion or LENR. It is neither and this was specifically cited in a previously article which I posted a link to previously.
Now to set the record straight, here is an excerpt to the previous information released by Brillouin:
"Robert says that "cold fusion" definitely is not an accurate name for it, and neither is LENR. It does not involved conventional nuclear fission or hot nuclear fusion processes. He has renamed the process Controlled Electron Capture Reactions or CECR, or "phonon-moderated hydrogen reactions.""
Here's a link:
http://pesn.com/2012/04/19/9602078_Brillouin--Understanding_How_LENR_Works_Will_Enable_Us_to_Be_First/ (http://pesn.com/2012/04/19/9602078_Brillouin--Understanding_How_LENR_Works_Will_Enable_Us_to_Be_First/)
It seems that disinformation has been designed to dishearten and dissuade the public but this has been a VERY transparent and clumsy attempt. But then again, this comes from a source that has already tried to slight well known scientific terms in the past (qaudrium for example) so this latest disinformation attempt should come as no suprise.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive" --Sir Walter Scott
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
Stop making a fool of yourself by trying to pretend that I don't exist while still responding to the issues that I am raising. Don't you dare try to imply that I am a "disinformation agent" and stop playing out your Spy vs. Spy fantasies. Stop making yourself look like a "free energy Moonie" and just be a real person. Can you handle that or is that just too real for you?
I would not give the Pesn web site any credibility for anything. That's just the nature of the beast and in case you haven't noticed that has been and is the general consensus for a long time now. Do you remember what Sterling's bahaviour was like during the Mylow fiasco?
When any alleged new technology comes along it has to prove itself in the real world. That's my central point and there isn't a single argument that you can throw at me that will detract from that point.
Scientists have been studying nuclear reactions in earnest for 70 years and when some unknown company comes along and says this:
Quote"A tiny amount of hydrogen protons are converted into neutrons. These newly produced neutrons are soon captured by hydrogen ions or other atoms in a metallic (e.g. nickel) lattice near to where the hydrogen ions were converted to neutrons. The captured neutrons generate heat because the new atoms that are one neutron heavier shed excess binding energy as heat to the lattice, resulting in a dramatically clean, low-cost, hi-quality heat output."
Then you have to put your brain in gear and say, "That is really different and I am suspicious of it. I know that Blacklight Power has burned through 400 million dollars over the past 20 years and they have produced nothing. It's possible that Blacklight is an elaborate con or are there are a bunch of PhD's burning through cash and doing research that is headed nowhere just to justify their paychecks? Is it possible that this radically new proposition is just another Blacklight Power type of operation or are they possibly real? I don't know the answer to that so I am going to hold judgement until they really deliver something."
That's the read deal, it's called doing your due diligence and there is nothing wrong with that. How many times have people been burned in the free energy field? How is your Romero replication coming along? How much time and how much money did you spend on it? Did you ever see definitive proof that it works? The answer to that question is "no," you didn't ever see definitive proof that it works.
Just stop trying to make a sales pitch to the readers here that I am trying to push an agenda of disinformation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Show some real character and show that you can think.
QuoteBut then again, this comes from a source that has already tried to slight well known scientific terms in the past (qaudrium for example) so this latest disinformation attempt should come as no suprise.
That's a joke and you look like a clown when you state that.
MileHigh
@Everyone:
It appears that Rossi realizes how important it is for him to refine his technology in order
to produce high temperature steam. After all, it is only with high temperature steam that
his units will be able to produce efficient generation of electricity.
Here is the latest article on Rossi's latest breakthrough:
"Two recent posts by Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics speak of a considerable breakthrough that he seems very excited about. We know that Rossi has been in search of high temperature steam in order to create efficient electricity. He has said for a while now that instability in his reactor has prevented him from achieving this goal, although he has mentioned progress has been made.
Now he is speaking of a breakthrough in this area. Here are his posts:
May 4th
Dear Fabio:
Thank you for your kind attention.
You are right: some puppett is trying to stop our work saying we cannot go on selling a producte that is not well known. Note: first they said my product was bullshit, now they have to change channel and try to raise the safety problem. But , as we always said, our product will hit the non military market only after due certification; besides, we know very well our product and how it works, so it is wrong to say we do not know how the E-Cat works.
About the market: you are right again, People will vote with their money and decide if the E-Cat works or not.
By the way: we are working very hard on the temperatures, and we have reached a tremendous goal in the last week. We are making a test which endures since a week, that could make a revolution in the revolution. It will go ahead for a month. For now, just working.
May 5th
Dear Dr Joseph Fine:
I agree. It’s Saturday, but today and tomorrow we will work 24 hours a day on the reactor we have made here in the USA: we have stabilized it at very high temperatures…and when I say very high I mean it. We understood the reason of the instability, so now the work is going on hard.
link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-talks-of-breakthrough-stability-at-very-high-temperatures/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-talks-of-breakthrough-stability-at-very-high-temperatures/)
It is interesting to note the change in tactics his adversaries have switched to. Their
first tactic was to try to discredit Rossi and call his technology fraudulent and phony.
Now they are acknowledging that his products IN FACT do work, however, they are now trying to portray them as unsafe. I guess when the fraud smear campaign failed miserably and didn't stick, their only tactic left was to attempt to raise safety issues.
With UL approval, he will overcome this latest attempt to block his products from entering
the public market place (as he's already reached the market in the military sector) and
begin to compete against petroleum based fuels.
Once this occurs, the road will already be paved for other exotic technologies to also enter
the market place to compete with the oil cartels. This will definitely ruin their plans to
build their pipeline from Canada to the U.S. as it will no longer be necessary with cheaper
and cleaner energy available.
Regards,
Chess
P.S. ...and to the trolls; Just keep digging your holes. It's entertaining to watch a self-burial.
Chess,
thanks for keeping this thread interesting and alive.
What is really pathetic about the recurrent sceptic posting vigorously in this thread for some time now,
is not only the transparent act of disguising his negative vibes behind old schoolbook rigidity or his unability to realize that he actually is far from
being objective and neutral, but the actual act of openly ignoring the reports regarding the progress made worldwide in this area of research.
Is this deliberate or is it only ignorance? If the latter, it needs a certain amount of stupor to make such ignorance possible.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
You too stop making yourself look like a "free energy Moonie" and just be a real person. Can you handle that or is that just too real for you?
I fully understand that there are some interesting reports out there but I'm not going to be reading all of them. There are decent checks and balances in the overall science reporting system and certainly companies like Brillouin or Rossi's companies have not made the breakout into mainstream science. They still fly under the RADAR and it's still to be determined if these propositions will get acceptance with peer review and more importantly, if they will pass multiple tests of independent third party validation.
So I am not jumping on the bandwagon right now because I am leery due to the history of systems like this and how corrupted and misleading they can be.
Take a look at this, dudes:
QuoteRonald Richter (1909â€"1991) was an Austrian, later Argentine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina), scientist who became famous in connection with the Huemul Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huemul_Project) and the National Atomic Energy Commission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Atomic_Energy_Commission). This was intended to generate energy from nuclear fusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion) in the 1950s in Argentina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentina), during the presidency of Juan Perón (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Per%C3%B3n). Richter's project would deliver â€" according to Perón's 1951 announcements â€" cheap energy in containers of two sizes: half liter and one liter, not unlike the milk bottles then in use.
In 1951 Richter announced that he had achieved controlled nuclear fusion under laboratory conditions; a claim that was later proven false, it transpiring that Richer had simply exploded hydrogen in an electric arc.[7]
After it became evident that Richter's project was spurious, Perón appointed a technical committee which included José Balseiro, a former faculty member at the La Plata Institute of Physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=La_Plata_Institute_of_Physics&action=edit&redlink=1), which was to report directly to him whether Richter's project should be discontinued. The committee analyzed Richter's work and concluded that the actual temperature reached in his experiments was far too low to produce a true thermonuclear reaction. They reported their findings to Perón in September 1952 and soon after that project was terminated.
And this:
QuoteThis German “scientist†had succeeded in convincing Perón that he was capable of producing atomic energy. Perón had an atomic plant built for him . . . The country lacked cement to build homes, yet tons of mortar were shuttled to Huemul. With his raincoat and his tousled hair, Richter looked like a mad scientist, and he made everyone laugh â€" except Perón, who for once was very serious. Evita would say, “The General is very naive.†Needless to say, nothing came of this endeavor.
â€" Dujovne Ortiz, 1996
Back to you:
QuoteIs this deliberate or is it only ignorance? If the latter, it needs a certain amount of stupor to make such ignorance possible.
Bullshit, it's using my common sense. Just like when I laugh when some people around here claimed that they would be reproducing a supposed Rossi LENR reactor as soon as they could reverse-engineer one. They make it sound like it's as complicated as going to your workbench and making a wooden book rack. It's ridiculous.
The ignorance is on your side when you blindly believe that this alleged technology is real when it is controversial and has not been demonstrated and verified by independent third-party testers. Whether you like it or not, this whole realm of energy propositions has been tainted by fraudulent players in the past - it stinks - and because of that the bar is set very high. The bar is set very high because it has to be set high for historical reasons.
You guys are too much. I am just saying that we need real proof to back up the claims and you guys start wanking off to your MIB fantasies.
MileHigh
Going back to Rossi, of course people should be concerned about safety issues. If you guys can't envision the optics in this day and age with respect to having a nuclear reactor in your home then get your heads out of the sand. Some pregnant women won't even go near a microwave oven, imagine how they would react to a gamma-ray-producing (??) nuclear reactor in their basement.
QuoteBy the way: we are working very hard on the temperatures, and we have reached a tremendous goal in the last week. We are making a test which endures since a week, that could make a revolution in the revolution. It will go ahead for a month. For now, just working.
May 5th
Dear Dr Joseph Fine:
I agree. It’s Saturday, but today and tomorrow we will work 24 hours a day on the reactor we have made here in the USA: we have stabilized it at very high temperatures…and when I say very high I mean it. We understood the reason of the instability, so now the work is going on hard.
So, it's May 5th 2012 and Rossi is still working on a project that was supposed to "reach the market in October 2011." That's food for thought right there.
However, what I really wanted to mention is this whole notion of "stabilization at high temperature" sounds fishy to me. Of course I don't know the details but what I do know is this:
If you assume that you are drawing heat off of a reactor core with water, then you can in theory generate any temperature you want, it just depends on your water/steam flow rate. Higher flow equals lower temperature and lower flow equals higher temperature.
Let's assume normal steam is 100C and superheated steam (what you need for power generation with steam turbines) is 250 C (a guess). Relative to a reactor based on a metallic nickel power core, I find it hard to see that higher temperature making much of a difference to the nickel metal powder core. Nickel melts at 1453C so what's the problem???
It all sounds fishy. Even the fact that Rossi is now "catching up to the competition" sounds fishy. How could he not know that the production of dry superheated steam is the obvious desired heat output method since driving steam turbine generators for the production of electricity is the 'killer app' for his E-Cat?
One more time, this latest twist to the Rossi tale where he is only now talking about the ability to output higher temperatures to produce superheated steam makes the whole thing look highly suspicious.
Plus "going for superheated steam production" translates into "wait two more years before you have a hope of seeing something concrete from us."
Personally I don't believe that there is an E-Cat doing useful work anywhere in the world right now. Where are the industrial chicken farmers that need cheap low-grade heat to keep their chicken coops warm and Rossi's E-Cat?
MileHigh
MIT is one of the most prestigious technology and research universities in the United States. The presence of a cold fusion research course there is exciting because it indicates growing mainstream scientific acceptance (http://energycatalyzer3.com/?s=duncan) of LENR. MIT is a bastion of the US scientific establishment. It also has close connections to the US military industrial complex and much of the work there is financed by the Pentagon. This could mean that official cold fusion research (http://coldfusion3.com/blog/nasa-publicly-reveals-lenr-research) is about to begin at the school which would be a welcome development.
http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/cold-fusion-being-studied-at-mit
Look Mile High, MIT is full of "Free Energy Moonies" Maybe you should get in contact with MIT to tell them they are making a grave mistake in providing classes on cold fusion.
Im sure you can insult them enough to follow your leader. 8)
Like Wilby said, your stuck in the 70's. You resort to insulting the couple people of this thread because you "I fully understand that there are some interesting reports out there but I'm not going to be reading all of them. " of course you will not be reading all of them, like these guys do in this thread. Yet you claim to be the ONE with all the info needed to insult and condemn the thoughts and sayings of the people of this thread as if they know nothing at all.
Lol, you think insults are a way to get people to understand you. Thats how all people with abusive tendencies think. Sick in the head, the place where the brain is, just in case you have never bothered to read up on this. ;)
And you tell these guys to get real? Freak
Mags n The Moonies
Magluvin:
I am not saying that various variations LENR are all a con job. However nor am I convinced that various variations on LENR are all legitimate either. It's also possible that effects seen in a test tube cannot be reproduced or scaled up to a working reactor that can produce power on an industrial scale. There is also the possibility that for some of the papers submitted that pathological science is at play:
QuotePathological science is the process by which "people are tricked into false results ... by subjective effects, wishful thinking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking) or threshold interactions"
If you know chemistry and you are not familiar with electrical measurements or beaming EM waves into a metal sample then you could be thrown off in your measurements.
All that I am counseling is to hold back on judgement until a real demo is done with credible verifiable third-party testing. That's what these companies are promising after all. It's a joke that this point is causing consternation.
And you still want to be a belligerent asshole with respect to me because I stated your one-magnet no-bearing spinning magnet thingie would never work. I said that it is based on a clip that is an outright lie and I think the author of that clip is a friend of yours so you got rabid. So tell me, how is that project going? How about the other project with the spinning pair of magnets and the magic inductor that reverses the current flow? Can you explain that one and how is that project coming along?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 06, 2012, 01:40:55 PM
And you still want to be a belligerent asshole with respect to me because I stated your one-magnet no-bearing spinning magnet thingie would never work. I said that it is based on a clip that is an outright lie and I think the author of that clip is a friend of yours so you got rabid. So tell me, how is that project going? How about the other project with the spinning pair of magnets and the magic inductor that reverses the current flow? Can you explain that one and how is that project coming along?
MileHigh
There we go, choice words from a quality guy. Cant stop baby pop. ;]
Yeah M, thats why Im here posting what I posted.
It is funny that the guys here get the same picture of you as I have again and again. And then you are yippin and yappin, "Im not an MIB!" Etc. Etc.
If it looks like Shucky Ducky, then Quack Quack.
Maybe if you were not the way you are, the others and I might not be saying the same things in reference to your posts. You seem to be the common denominator. But in your "mind" 8) we are all people that need to be put in your re-education camp.
As for my projects, Ill take the time needed to convince myself one way or the other. Whether you like it or not. In fact your post inspire me to keep going, and searching and testing and learning hands on, and to research to no end to come to conclusions.
But here is you "I fully understand that there are some interesting reports out there but I'm not going to be reading all of them. " Well maybe you should before calling people names and making fun of their post in this research subject. Because it is clear that your diaper is unfastened and you are spreading it all over the place.
Mags n The Moonies
Hey Moonie Magsie,
You are the big man that worked in car audio and you know how to install an amp and supercapacitors. Way cool, big time electronics street cred.
So here is a little circuit for you: You connect an ideal voltage source of three volts to an ideal inductor of two henrys. That's it, that's the entire circuit, a voltage source and a single component. Please tell us what happens when you connect the voltage source to the coil.
Thanks,
MileHigh
Ahh The M n M Show!! All in the thread it shouldnt be in. 8)
Ideal is key. In fact it doesnt exist. But if it did......
When we connect the Ideal 3v source to the Ideal 2h inductor, using Ideal connections of course, What we will see electrically is that the voltage across the inductor(and the battery ::) ) will be 3v indefinitely. The current will begin to rise indefinitely. In about 1 min after connection, the amperage flow through the circuit would be near 75amps and climbing.
All of this while a magnetic fields continuously grows as the current flow increases, never ending, infinity.
That is, in an ideal world. ;)
Maybe you want to make the M n M Show thread? :o ;)
Mags
Good for you Moonie Magsy, except for the fact that you got the current at one minute wrong and you are not very articulate with describing what happens but you are definitely on the right track. However, if you really knew your stuff you would have been able to be more articulate and you would not have gotten the number wrong. So perhaps you scrambled and got the answer from somewhere else and your friend was wrong and it got a bit lost in translation?
For sure three months ago you wouldn't have been able to answer that question at all, but you paid attention to myself and others on OUR, didn't you? I suspect that one of the main reasons you can show understanding is because of me, not that you ever could show enough character to thank me though.
So, can you give the real, proper answer to the question?
Bonus question: Precisely what happens if the ideal voltage source switches to negative four volts after 90 seconds? It's an ideal instantaneous switch in polarity. Explain what happens. Use your command of English to explain exactly what happens.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 06, 2012, 03:26:45 PM
Good for you Moonie Magsy, except for the fact that you got the current at one minute wrong and you are not very articulate with describing what happens but you are definitely on the right track. However, if you really knew your stuff you would have been able to be more articulate and you would not have gotten the number wrong. So perhaps you scrambled and got the answer from somewhere else and your friend was wrong and it got a bit lost in translation?
For sure three months ago you wouldn't have been able to answer that question at all, but you paid attention to myself and others on OUR, didn't you? I suspect that one of the main reasons you can show understanding is because of me, not that you ever could show enough character to thank me though.
So, can you give the real, proper answer to the question?
Bonus question: Precisely what happens if the ideal voltage source switches to negative four volts after 90 seconds? It's an ideal instantaneous switch in polarity. Explain what happens. Use your command of English to explain exactly what happens.
MileHigh
Actually, I was trying to give a very short answer, and trying to end this , IN THIS THREAD. But you would fill these pages with this off topic here and for what? 8) Your just all banged out from my first post earlier and throwing some spin. Spin till they are dizzy. This is what you claim Rose does. But here you are, spinny spin spin. 8) Your a Spinner. 8) Is it clear that we see this in you? 8) Crystal. ;)
Ya need to get your act straight.
And you know what you can do with yer bonus. Just more insults
And he says my answer, err maybe mistake, of the amp flow is wrong but never gives the real answer to back it up. Why is that? Maybe I gave the wrong answer to see if you would put up the correct one. But ya never do. Like your red led's that turn on at 1v. Now that red led was some basic shizzy my nizzy. 1v my pinky toe So You get real.
Mags n The Moonies
The answer is 90 amps at 60 seconds. I was giving you a chance to correct yourself. So why did you say 75 amps? Why is the answer 90 amps? Try for the bonus question.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 06, 2012, 04:27:50 PM
The answer is 90 amps at 60 seconds. I was giving you a chance to correct yourself. So why did you say 75 amps? Why is the answer 90 amps? Try for the bonus question.
::) See folks. This will go on and on. With purpose. Ill let you have your thread back. ;]
Mags
@Everyone:
As the disinformation war is continuing, the latest false information release has stated that the high temperature breakthrough will delay the timely release of the home E-Cat units. This is completely and utterly FALSE!
The source of the false information? I'll give you a hint. It's coming from the same source that has never heard of quadrium and therefore it doesn't exist ;) And recently; It exists but it is not found all over the internet (LOL).
Now the truth is that the higher temperature steam is ONLY for use in the commercial version (which has already made it to market last October to a military customer) of the E-Cat and is not going to even be available for the home version E-Cat. So the home version of the E-Cat will NOT BE DELAYED as a result of the latest breakthrough by Rossi.
Below, Rossi states this clearly and why this is:
Hergen
May 5th, 2012 at 11:47 AM
Dear Mr Rossi,
I follow your blog nearly daily since January 2011. Congrats to your new success. My question: Will it be possible to run the household e-cat with a higher temperature, too, in order to produce electricity?
Thank you for your answer in advance.
Andrea Rossi
May 5th, 2012 at 5:44 PM
Dear Hergen:
No, for the domestic the safety issues are still prohibitive, but for the industrial applications we made a gigantic step forward.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Now as far as disinformation agents go; If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, eats like a duck, swims like a duck and acts like a duck...it's a duck ;)
Regards,
Chess
Shucky Ducky 8) ;D Quack Quack ;)
Mags n The Moonies ;)
Chess:
This is not a "disinformation war" and you are not some kind of "angel resistance fighter" out to protect the interests of LENR against the powers that be. You are not getting any armor or health points by arguing against me. I am just an ordinary person and so are you. Can you stop the fake Orwellian pseudo freedom fighter bullshit? It's becoming a comical farce to read your ridiculous prose.
QuoteIt's coming from the same source that has never heard of quadrium and therefore it doesn't exist
What I said was that I never heard of it. I never said that it doesn't exist so stop putting words in my mouth.
QuoteNow as far as disinformation agents go; If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, eats like a duck, swims like a duck and acts like a duck...it's a duck
It's not that I am a duck, it's that you are a quack. Come back to your normal human self.
So far based on what I have read and seen, I am not expecting any definitive proof that any of these proposed systems will have been verified to be real by independent third-party testers by December 31st of this year. That's simply my opinion.
MileHigh
@Everyone:
Quite to the contrary, it is indeed a war. It's a war of words. A war of ideas and a war of propaganda designed to control minds and public opinion whenever this is possible. Every war has propaganda. Propaganda was even used in recent wars to win public opinion ensuring an administration would fraudulently receive their license to kill other human beings all based on false information (propaganda) in order to murder others legally. The Iraq war was sold to the American public based on false information (propaganda) and even continued after the public was made aware of the truth unless the duck wants to tell us there really were weapons of mass destruction ::)
A true spin doctor will always attack the messenger whenever his attempts at spreading false information fail. It's the oldest trick in the book. The duck is through here. I don't know if he's noticed or not but his credibility is shot as well as his cover. Nobody is buying his so called objective opinion here. I think he termed it "calling bullshit" but I call it checkmate ;)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on May 06, 2012, 11:35:58 PM
@Everyone:
Quite to the contrary, it is indeed a war. It's a war of words. A war of ideas and a war of propaganda designed to control minds and public opinion whenever this is possible. Every war has propaganda. Propaganda was even used in recent wars to win public opinion ensuring an administration would fraudulently receive their license to kill other human beings all based on false information (propaganda) in order to murder others legally. The Iraq war was sold to the American public based on false information (propaganda) and even continued after the public was made aware of the truth unless the duck wants to tell us their really were weapons of mass destruction ::)
A true spin doctor will always attack the messenger whenever his attempts at spreading false information fail. It's the oldest trick in the book. The duck is through here. I don't know if he's noticed or not but his credibility is shot as well as his cover. Nobody is buying his so called objective opinion here. I think he termed it "calling bullshit" but I call it checkmate ;)
Regards,
Chess
Amen ;D
Mags n The Moonies
Chess:
Well this is a real small scale "war" I can tell you. You might have a few hundred unique people at most reading this thread in a given week. Then the following week there is probably a 98% overlap with the people from the previous week.
So you are a big "freedom fighter" in the "propaganda wars" over LENR. Who is going to play you in the movie? lol
My credibility is absolutely rock solid because I have no reason whatsoever to lie. I am just in a waiting pattern like everybody else and I am expressing caution about the whole thing because of what I have seen so far.
And if we are still in a waiting pattern three years from now your bombast and ego and "freedom fighter status" will be severely diminished and I will be in a position to say "I told you so."
On the other hand, if this alleged technology is verified to be true, then we all win because the cost of energy will start to fall and it really could usher in an new age.
MileHigh
In May now, Back in September 2011 I said nothing will happen in a year.. not long now to be vindicated. What I define as nothing? simple, can I or can I not buy (and get it delivered!) a OU device from rossi? to date, the answer is no.
Quote from: Poit on May 06, 2012, 11:55:38 PM
In May now, Back in September 2011 I said nothing will happen in a year.. not long now to be vindicated. What I define as nothing? simple, can I or can I not buy (and get it delivered!) a OU device from rossi? to date, the answer is no.
@Poit:
FALSE. The answer to your question is yes. The truth is that you can order and have delivered an over unity device from Rossi and it will be delivered to you before September.
You had better order your unit now if you expect to get it delivered before September. Chop chop or you'll miss your own deadline ;)
Rossi has set the release date for the home E-Cat units to some time before the end of 2013.
"The ECAT 1 MW Plant is available for pre-ordering now with an estimated delivery time of 3 months. The first generation of ECAT Home products will be available in 2013."
link:
http://ecat.com/ecat-questions/when-will-the-ecat-be-available (http://ecat.com/ecat-questions/when-will-the-ecat-be-available)
Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
Once again, Rossi makes it clear that the high temperature reactors (steam) will only be for the industrial version of the E-Cat.
The results from the new series of testing being conducted (high temperature) on the industrial E-Cat will be released as soon as they are completed.
Andrea Rossi
May 8th, 2012 at 3:56 PM
"Dear Mario P.:
http://www.ecat.com (http://www.ecat.com/) is the right site, as long as this blog, to get our news. About the new high temperature reactors ( which will be only for industrial use) we will give adjournments after the test campaign we are making.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Steven N. Karels
May 9th, 2012 at 8:41 AM
"Dear Andrea Rossi,
I know you have demonstrated eCat before and the critics have found fault with the demonstration, disputed the interpretation of the results, etc.With the upcoming residential eCat models, with a much lower output, I would suggest a public test with the following criteria/conditions.
a. The test be conducted in the US at a place of your choice.
b. The independent observer provide the “extension cord†from the wall outlet to your system for all consumed electrical power. This “extension cord†would have a separation in the wires to permit Ampmeter monitoring of electrical input power during the test. If possible, it should be a computer monitored, periodic read-out. Part of the pre-test should include the independent observer measuring the current against a known load (e.g., a lamp with known load)
c. Increase the water flow so that boiling is not achieved. Measure the water flow both by a calibrated flowmeter and the weight over time method.
d. Monitor the input and output temperature continuously with computer logging.
e. Conduct the test with continuous monitoring for a sufficient length of time to eliminate chemical energy as a means of explaining the results. Say a month long test?
f. The independent observer should conduct both pre-test and post-test calibrations of all test equipment to verify their accuracy and that they have not changed.
Do that and the nay-sayers will be silent or converted."
Andrea Rossi
May 9th, 2012 at 9:26 AM
"Dear Steven N. Karels:
"...there will be no problems at all to do what you say when the Ecats will be on the market. Everybody will be free to buy an E-Cat and make all the test he wants. We made all the tests we had to make and we have absolutely not time to lose with naysayers who will debunk anyway whatever we will make. We have to work, not to chatter. We have a production to make for our Customers. Naysayers are the last of our problem.
Warm Regards,
A.R."
Like I stated before, I absolutely agree with Rossi concerning future demonstrations.
Naysayers will always say that there are hidden wires, power supply or rigged test equipment should another demonstration be arranged. A good case and point would be the demonstration of Larskro's magnet motor in which he now admits that it is a fake.
If you are completely skeptical, then I would suggest that you NOT invest any money in Rossi's Corporation (I believe he says it is only accepting investments from hedge funds anyways).
WAIT for the product to arrive on a store shelf and buy one. Then take it home and have it properly installed. Now take out EVERY piece of test equipment you have and test the living hell out of the device. Then simply make some videos and post your results (upload your videos) on YouTube. Rossi will not be present at your own private residence to rig any of your tests so you can be sure that none of the results can be faked. If the device doesn't work and you end up with a giant paperweight, ask other E-Cat owners to join you in a class action lawsuit and if you do, a judge will most likely force Rossi to pay your legal fees as well as damages (providing Rossi has defrauded you). You will still come out ahead ;)
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
Your response to Poit is illogical. The stated delivery for home units is now 2013. Poit is asking if he can get a home unit by September 2012. He means a physical device delivered to his door. So the answer to Poit's question is "no."
Rossi's real response to Steven Karel's question is an evasive non-answer. He should have simply stated that no devices will be tested publicly before he launches his product. He will have to give or sell samples to trade journals, etc, before or at the same time he officially starts selling them to customers. It's the way products are launched. People want to read product reviews online and in magazines. So at some point whether Rossi likes it or not, somebody will test his units and review them. Assuming that awareness is much higher by then, you can assume that millions of people will be flocking to the web sites that have reviews.
So we will see what happens.
I looked at the ecat.com web site and there is no home unit shown yet, just a CAD model. 2013 is not that far away!
MileHigh
Quote from: chessnyt on May 07, 2012, 07:17:32 PM
@Poit:
FALSE. The answer to your question is yes. The truth is that you can order and have delivered an over unity device from Rossi and it will be delivered to you before September.
You had better order your unit now if you expect to get it delivered before September. Chop chop or you'll miss your own deadline ;)
Rossi has set the release date for the home E-Cat units to some time before the end of 2013.
"The ECAT 1 MW Plant is available for pre-ordering now with an estimated delivery time of 3 months. The first generation of ECAT Home products will be available in 2013."
link:
http://ecat.com/ecat-questions/when-will-the-ecat-be-available (http://ecat.com/ecat-questions/when-will-the-ecat-be-available)
Regards,
Chess
Poit:
"What I define as nothing? simple, can I or can I not buy (and get it delivered!) a OU device from rossi? to date, the answer is no. "
Like I said:
The truth is that you can order and have delivered an over unity device from Rossi and it will be delivered to you before September. Notice I didn't say HOME UNIT! I said OVER UNITY DEVICE 8) If Poit orders now, he can purchase an "OU device from Rossi". The turnaround time on the 1MW E-Cats is 3 months. That's how he could get it before September. Of course Poit would have to qualify before Rossi would sell a 1MW unit to him but it is possible he could meet the requirements and take delivery 3 months from now.
Of course some people could not figure out what I just posted without me explaining it in great detail as I just have here. But then again, some people want you to just listen to them over NASA scientists and Nobel Prize winning scientists even though they have never heard of quadrium :o You see, being ignorant in science makes some people a greater authority than NASA or Nobel Prize winning scientists ;D
As far as ratings and trade journals go; Rossi can do what he wants. If it were rated, then just what in the world would you compare it with or rate it against? It's the first of its kind in its class!!! You can't really be serious ;D ;D ;D
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on May 10, 2012, 01:02:50 AM
Poit:
"What I define as nothing? simple, can I or can I not buy (and get it delivered!) a OU device from rossi? to date, the answer is no. "
Like I said:
The truth is that you can order and have delivered an over unity device from Rossi and it will be delivered to you before September. Notice I didn't say HOME UNIT! I said OVER UNITY DEVICE 8) If Poit orders now, he can purchase an "OU device from Rossi". The turnaround time on the 1MW E-Cats is 3 months. That's how he could get it before September. Of course Poit would have to qualify before Rossi would sell a 1MW unit to him but it is possible he could meet the requirements and take delivery 3 months from now.
Of course some people could not figure out what I just posted without me explaining it in great detail as I just have here. But then again, some people want you to just listen to them over NASA scientists and Nobel Prize winning scientists even though they have never heard of quadrium :o You see, being ignorant in science makes some people a greater authority than NASA or Nobel Prize winning scientists ;D
As far as ratings and trade journals go; Rossi can do what he wants. If it were rated, then just what in the world would you compare it with or rate it against? It's the first of its kind in its class!!! You can't really be serious ;D ;D ;D
Chess
@Chess, Ok, I will submit to your reasoning. I accept that I could order a 1MW over unity device and have it at my place before September (which probably wouldn't happen, Australia is so backwards, I am not even allowed to order an electric motor cycle!! let alone a nuclear device (I know, I know, but thats WHAT the government would see it as). Besides all of that, thats just delivery issues, the point is, yes, OU @ my door. BUT! at what cost? like, literally, what cost?$$? assuming I have a spare mil laying around (which I don't!) then your statement would be true and feasible. But like someone already pointed out, the home unit is really what I am after. Albeit that wasn't what I originally said, but that IS what I meant.
Chess, what is all this talk about the home unit not being able to make steam? I hardly see the point in such a unit (apart from the obvious = heating your house).... why would Rossi not make the home unit produce steam? and if that really is the case, can it be modded TO produce steam? (I guess the last question would be impossible to know till 2013 right?)
Quote from: Poit on May 10, 2012, 05:30:31 AM
@Chess, Ok, I will submit to your reasoning. I accept that I could order a 1MW over unity device and have it at my place before September (which probably wouldn't happen, Australia is so backwards, I am not even allowed to order an electric motor cycle!! let alone a nuclear device (I know, I know, but thats WHAT the government would see it as). Besides all of that, thats just delivery issues, the point is, yes, OU @ my door. BUT! at what cost? like, literally, what cost?$$? assuming I have a spare mil laying around (which I don't!) then your statement would be true and feasible. But like someone already pointed out, the home unit is really what I am after. Albeit that wasn't what I originally said, but that IS what I meant.
Chess, what is all this talk about the home unit not being able to make steam? I hardly see the point in such a unit (apart from the obvious = heating your house).... why would Rossi not make the home unit produce steam? and if that really is the case, can it be modded TO produce steam? (I guess the last question would be impossible to know till 2013 right?)
@Poit:
I predict that electric utility providers and large industrial factories will be the ones to purchase the 1MW E-Cats for the most part, but only when it's fully ready to produce high temperature steam (which is in the near future due to Rossi's advancements as of late).
If the home units were able to make high temperature steam, then you would need a boiler in order to accumulate the proper/necessary steam pressure to run an efficient steam turbine.
The problem is in obtaining the proper permits (at least in the U.S.) to purchase and operate the boiler. It doesn't matter where the boiler comes from. It would still need to be inspected and permitted by local government. It may even require proper zoning as well. This would make it difficult to obtain permits in residentially zoned areas/properties.
Besides the boiler issues, Rossi would have safety restrictions to overcome with UL that would far exceed the issues he faces presently with his low temperature system as is. This would futher delay the release of the home E-Cat for public use.
Now just addressing Rossi's system (the home E-Cat); if it produces high temperature steam, then even a leak anywhere in the output lines can cause serious damage to life and property as high pressure leaks are almost invisible to the naked eye yet they can be sufficient to sever human limbs. This is the other safety risks involved in such a system besides the potential for the boiler to explode (which could also cause great bodily harm and take out walls in close proximity).
My plan is to purchase one of his home E-Cats and use it to drive a "wet" steam engine with a lower temperature boiler in series which in turn would drive an inefficient electric generator. My whole idea is not to produce enough power to run my entire house. Rather, I would simply be running a small generator in which I could charge a bank of batteries with while I'm sleeping (for 8 hours) and while I'm at work (for 10 hours more).
My house would actually be powered by a bank of batteries (DC) which would be converted to alternating current via an inverter. Think of it as a solar type of system minus the solar cells with a steam engine and generator in their place.
I would still probably have to obtain a permit for the boiler but I would need to check with the city to find out if this would be allowed.
If the system is allowed by the city (and that's a BIG IF) then I would build the system and make plans for others to copy my system.
You have stated the most popular use of the home E-Cat which is indeed home heating. More specifically, homes located in cold regions where electric heaters are cost prohibitive. These are homes that are usually equipted with heating systems that require heating oil. Rossi can save these people a small fortune relatively quickly.
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
QuoteI predict that electric utility providers and large industrial factories will be the ones to purchase the 1MW E-Cats for the most part, but only when it's fully ready to produce high temperature steam
Really?! Sounds like a plan! ;D
QuoteIf the home units were able to make high temperature steam, then you would need a boiler in order to accumulate the proper/necessary steam pressure to run an efficient steam turbine.
I am not a thermodynamics guy but that doesn't sound or smell right to me.
QuoteNow just addressing Rossi's system (the home E-Cat); if it produces high temperature steam, then even a leak anywhere in the output lines can cause serious damage to life and property as high pressure leaks are almost invisible to the naked eye yet they can be sufficient to sever human limbs.
Night of the Living Steam Pipe. It was an amazing movie.
QuoteThis is the other safety risks involved in such a system besides the potential for the boiler to explode (which could also cause great bodily harm and take out walls in close proximity).
Jesus Christ somebody should invent something to prevent that from happening.
QuoteMy plan is to purchase one of his home E-Cats and use it to drive a "wet" steam engine with a lower temperature boiler in series which in turn would drive an inefficient electric generator. My whole idea is not to produce enough power to run my entire house. Rather, I would simply be running a small generator in which I could charge a bank of batteries with while I'm sleeping (for 8 hours) and while I'm at work (for 10 hours more).
It sounds to me like a direct connection to the utility grid will be cheaper and lower in maintenance.
QuoteRossi can save these people a small fortune relatively quickly.
Cool! We would love to see the ROI spreadsheet.
MileHigh
It may well be that the system proposed by Chess would initially not be cost effective. If you live in a cold climate, and the system is within your house, there is no such thing as waste heat, because it heats your home. Also the system is a tool for research and development, so you can not expect perfection from day one. These sort of experiments demand a degree of self sacrifice for the long term benefit of everybody. The future has got to start somewhere. A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.
High pressure steam can remove limbs.
I know people that worked at Johns Hopkins maintenance facilities more than twenty years ago. They used to search for steam leaks using a wooden pole or the opposite end of broom in front of them to protect themselves. When the pole snapped in half they found the leak.
Just thought I'd add that since MileHigh seems to think the notion is high fantasy.
Tenbatsu:
No I am fully aware that high pressure steam can do very nasty things. Imagine what high pressure water can do - cut through steel.
What's high fantasy is to imagine an E-Cat approved for home use that would have exposed high-pressure steam lines that would normally run at such elevated pressures, and that they could put the occupants of the house in that kind of danger. I think they call it "FMEA analysis." 8)
MileHigh
regarding milehigh:
That's actually about you Wilby, the Chet-monster of the forum. Here is the clip that makes us think of you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfggccwQrcY
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on May 11, 2012, 08:45:49 PM
regarding milehigh:
@Wilby:
Very well put. It's like reading a law enforcement psychological profile and a public service message all rolled into one!
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess:
It's more like this. In your posting #1147 it has become clear that you are mostly Rossi fanboy as compared to someone with real-word experience on the tech side of things. So you got some tongue-in-cheek comments and questions. That's just some quid pro quo in the overall scheme of things.
You will never have to worry about exploding steam boilers and getting your limbs sliced off. One megawatt is a drop in the bucket for an electrical utility. The more you transform and move energy around, the more you lose and you get to the point were all of your gain is lost. And so on. You revealed some things about yourself in that posting.
We are still waiting on the Defkalion July milestone and some vague milestone for Rossie and home E-Cats in 2013. "The game changer is here." My gut feel is telling me that Rossi has not shipped a second container to anybody. I don't think you can take delivery of one in September either.
MileHigh
Quote from: Loner on May 12, 2012, 05:05:55 PM
I have to throw this out there, as I have a small amount of experience with certain aspects of high pressure operations. The concept of the "Steam Boiler" exploding is a slight misnomer. The E-Cat IS the steam boiler if it is producing the steam. Let's not let things get into unneeded complexity. Most steam boiler explosions are caused by lack of water, for those with no research or experience. I need not get more detailed as steam tech is quite well vetted and easy to handle in this day and age. As to getting things chopped off from small leaks, well, I must admit this is something I have not witnessed myself, but I have seen the results of simple pressure injection from hydraulic systems and the results are not pretty. For consumer products this can easily be handled with double pipework and pressure sensors on the outer pipes. Not a major area of concern in this day and age either. (Of course, getting UL approval IS quite another story, which I am certainly not qualified to even make a guess.)
Part of my expertise is in the automation of industrial processes and equipment but I don't expect everyone else to be PLC (and relay ladder logic) proficient enough to build their own system with the necessary modern safeties in place (e.g. pressure switches, transducers, temperature switches, encoders, proximity sensors, etc.) thus I am trying to warn the layman of some of the common dangers that exist before they find out on their own through error (which could be fatal).
It's not the people who are steam experts that I posted those precautions for. I posted the dangers of high pressure steam for amateurs so they would hopefully seek some professional assistance before attempting to make a DIY project and end up in harms way. I honestly care for the safety of everyone (as I'm sure you do too) and I would not like to see ANYONE get hurt because they went in blind and didn't know any better. Safety is paramount.
As far as the troll situation; I call them as I see them.
First of all, open minded people do not accuse others of running a scam without ANY proof whatsoever. Instead, he makes unsubstantiated scam accusations without ANY facts to back it up because you can't have a scam without victims by virtue of definition. To date, MileHigh has not offered ANY proof that Rossi has cheated ANYBODY out of one single penny concerning the E-Cat. This is fact.
Secondly, if you take a close look around this forum, you will discover that MileHigh is involved in similar behavior in other threads as well. There's a clear pattern that emerges.
And lastly, he has made more than one false statement which I have had to set the record straight on (and will continue to do so).
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess:
I am not a troll. I express my opinions and original thoughts and I am real. You have to deal with the fact that there a people that are going to disagree with you.
I made a posting a while back illustrating how your "you're a troll" attitude is not much different than totalitarian ideology and that is something to worry about.
No lay person is going to be able to build a home-brew E-Cat. The logic boards and the microcontroller code will be proprietary and without that nobody could possibly build their own setup. Your talk is in the realm of fantasy. On top of that, almost no purchasers of a home E-Cat would ever have any intention of building their own. You have to think outside of the free energy forum box.
For the false statements if I made a mistake I will admit it. Whatever you are thinking about, from my perspective they may have been inconsequential because I can't remember any specifics. Don't mention the quadrium because I'll laugh.
The only other thread that I am really involved in is the TK Tar Baby thread. I have followed that drama for three years and I stand by what I say there. I express my opinion with conviction and it's 100% real, just like here.
You don't need to be a Rossi fanboy and bend over ass-backwards to shoehorn everything into a positive portrayal of this project. There are both positives and negatives associated with the Rossi drama and a wise man looks at both sides of the argument. Have you ever read the feature stories about "cutting-edge free energy technologies" on PESN.com? Almost all of them are ridiculous con jobs, fake companies with fake websites and non-existent products. That unfortunately is the back-drop to the Rossi saga, whether you like it or not.
One thing for sure, neither of us knows much about Rossi's finances. So one can only speculate based on the track record of similar schemes in past.
MileHigh
Hi again,
This post is only directed to those of you that have chosen to acknowledge the AR technology as one of the many successful LENR technologies mushrooming on our planet these days.
(To the sceptical ones, we already know about your doubts, and any repetition of your sceptical attitudes is totally unneccessary, we are as said well informed about your standpoint.)
To those of you not subscribing to any news from the ECAT.com, I just wanted to share an update I got today, presenting info about the present progress:
Quote
Leonardo Corp and Andrea Rossi is currently working on a new reactor type with
specifications far better than the previous versions of E-Cat.
The canonical improvement is that the new E-Cat is now working stably at much higher
temperatures than previously achieved.
These temperatures allows for a vast number of electricity solutions at 40%+ gross heat-to-power
efficiencies and 25%+ net efficiencies taking into account the power used by the process.
The design allows for merely any heat transferring media including water/steam, heat-transferring-oils,
molten salts but also hot air.
The high temperature E-Cat reactor currently in test also opens up for applications with Sterling Engines.
The new reactor is smaller in size and has a charge of 1.5 grams and more shielding than the original reactor.
The new progress also gives the possibility to increase the COP for industrial applications.
Currently a one month long E-Cat test is in progress as part of the new development process.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
I exist and I can speak! Freedom at last!
QuoteThe design allows for merely any heat transferring media including water/steam, heat-transferring-oils, molten salts but also hot air.
Yeah... I am not comfortable with that statement, it's too all-encompassing. What specifically are they going to do because you can't do all of them in one shot.
QuoteThe new reactor is smaller in size and has a charge of 1.5 grams and more shielding than the original reactor.
Yeah again.... We all remember when Riossi was interviewed buy the guy from the Nuclear Regulatory Agency, (I think?) that Rossi claimed that there were no forms of radioactivity emitted by the device. So that remains an unresolved problem.
What we need is a preliminary spec sheet for a home E-Cat.
MileHigh
Quote from: Gwandau on May 14, 2012, 05:40:40 PM
Hi again,
This post is only directed to those of you that have chosen to acknowledge the AR technology as one of the many successful LENR technologies mushrooming on our planet these days.
(To the sceptical ones, we already know about your doubts, and any repetition of your sceptical attitudes is totally unneccessary, we are as said well informed about your standpoint.)
To those of you not subscribing to any news from the ECAT.com, I just wanted to share an update I got today, presenting info about the present progress:
"Leonardo Corp and Andrea Rossi is currently working on a new reactor type with
specifications far better than the previous versions of E-Cat.
The canonical improvement is that the new E-Cat is now working stably at much higher temperatures than previously achieved.
These temperatures allows for a vast number of electricity solutions at 40% gross heat-to-power efficiencies and 25% net efficiencies taking into account the power used by the process. The design allows for merely any heat transferring media including water/steam, heat- transferring-oils, molten salts but also hot air.
The high temperature E-Cat reactor currently in test also opens up for applications with Sterling Engines.
The new reactor is smaller in size and has a charge of 1.5 grams and more shielding than the original reactor.
The new progress also gives the possibility to increase the COP for industrial applications.
Currently a one month long E-Cat test is in progress as part of the new development process. " Gwandau
@Gwandau:
Great news report, my friend ;D ;D ;D
Thank you for your persistence and also your words of wisdom you left for the "skeptical ones" ;) I highlighted them when I quoted your posting as to add emphasis on your straightforward and enlightening message.
And to those who are tempted; PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS. THAT WILL JUST PROLONG THEIR STAY HERE (PLEASE REFER TO REPLY #1152).
Best Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
Contrary to false rumors (propaganda) started here in this thread, the 1MW plants/units are still being sold and built to this day:
Andrea Rossi
May 10th, 2012 at 9:37 AM
Dear Avi:
The 1 MW plants are already for sale and in construction. As for the domestic E-Cats we must wait for the certificator’s requirements.
The timing does not depend on us, but we have already committed the production lines.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
News about the 1MW unit sold to the military customer:
Andrea Rossi
May 13th, 2012 at 8:03 AM
Dear Pietro F.:
I have been authorized to give the following information.
The 1 MW plant has been delivered and is working in a military concern.
...and concerning the home E-Cats:
We are working very much and very hard to be as fast as possible. For the domestic E-Cats we have the necessity of the certification made. The industrial plants will get the necessary certification within weeks.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Here Rossi announces the plans by the Trust that owns Leonardo Corp. on where they will be producing their products initially:
Andrea Rossi
May 13th, 2012 at 8:36 PM
Dear Frank Acland:
Thank you for the information: your inteeview has been very useful.
I have just an adjournment: the production will be focused on the USA alone, for the first years. This has been decided in a meeting of today of the Trust that owns Leonardo Corp with me, as the CEO of Leonardo.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
It appears this thread is not the only source of false information being spread in order to try and stop Mr. Rossi and notice how their choice of subject matter and spin is ALMOST IDENTICLE:
Andrea Rossi
May 14th, 2012 at 8:59 AM
Dear Antonella, Dear Giovanni Guerrini:
The false statements contained in the answer that the Italian Government guy ( a deputy minister !!!) has given are a clear signal. If you analyse the language and compare the evident lack of specific information of this guy with the arrogance of his conclusions ( for example: “the patent will not be granted in Europeâ€, and he knows nothing of the pending patents, or †Rossi in some occasion said his apparatus emits radiations, in other occasions said the contraryâ€, which is false because I always said that no radiations are emitted to the external of the apparatuses from the E-Cats, and I always said that the low level gamma rays inside the E-Cat are turned into heat) and compare the arrogance of the statements with the evident lack of information,as I was saying, the signal is clear: lobbies bound to the government have acted. Add the fact that a person, financed by the taxpayer, is blowing on the fire to try to stop us to promote more public funding to state owned compamies that produced only chatters in 20 years of work, shake the all and the resulting cocktail is: better we stay away from there, if I want not to get stuck in the mud. We will sell in Italy our production, but will work safe in the USA and, probably, in Sweden, where we are organizing a strong organization.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
...and finally, the work ethic without government funding (like the BILLIONS hot fusion receives):
Andrea Rossi
May 15th, 2012 at 9:24 AM
Dear Giovanni Guerrini,
We work hard on it, not less than 16 hours per day. The work is going well, without money from any taxpayer…
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
It's comical how you seemingly are playing Spy vs. Spy with me like you are right out of Mad Magazine.
Meanwhile, a link:
http://ecat.com/news/news-update-from-andrea-rossi-and-ecat-com-in-may (http://ecat.com/news/news-update-from-andrea-rossi-and-ecat-com-in-may)
QuoteECAT 1 MW Updates One ECAT 1 MW plant (http://ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-1-mw) has been delivered and is working in a military facility. Andrea Rossi recently made the following statement:
“The 1 MW plant has been delivered and is working in a military concern.
It has been made in the USA, after the October test of the prototype made in Italy; such prototype will be delivered, with the modifications which we will complete based on what we learnt from the model at work, to a European Customer in July. â€
The ECAT 1 MW plant in USA is now stable at very high temperatures.
The industrial plants will get the necessary certification within weeks.
The price for an E-Cat 1 MW plant is still $1.5M (http://ecat.com/ecat-products); orders can be made from the inquiry form on the right side at this website.
I remember distinctly how everyone was excited and waiting for news that the 1MW E-Cat container in Italy was going to ship to an unknown military customer in the US.
But apparently now we have a mysterious factory in the USA that made it! Astonishing! Remember the report of the interview with the agent from the Nuclear Regulatory Agency in Florida. Didn't Rossi tell the agent that there was no factory in the US and there were no emissions?
So what do you have? The 1MW E-Cat is probably still sitting on the ground in Italy and we have to "work hard to imagine" that an imaginary factory in the USA that nobody knows anything about built a 1MW E-Cat and shipped it to the US military just because "Rossi says."
It still doesn't smell right.
MileHigh
MileHigh:
Your such a dumb ass!
Rossi did not say there is no factory in the US. That is what you THOUGHT YOU READ ( again Dumb ass for the second time!) He said "CURRENTLY ALL PRODUCTION IS OVER SEAS!"
For the last time get it right or get out!
Jesus christ you go on and on with the same old misinformation day after day trying to convince someone you are man that knew better and each day you look more like a court jester.
And YES there are no emissions out side of the e-cat. (only on the inside) slap / slap / slap ---- wake up man! Your dreaming in the past.
Lumen:
I don't remember the specifics in the report and if you are right then I stand corrected - within limits. Within limits in the sense that you have to ask yourself why someone would lie to a federal agent if he asked you if you had a factory in the US. Do you really think in the real world you can get off because of "technicalities" in your choice of words? If the federal dude asks you if you have a factory in the US and the fatory is allegedly just a few months away from manufacturing a 1MW E-Cat you can't tell the federal agent that "CURRENTLY ALL PRODUCTION IS OVER SEAS!" It's just insane.
QuoteAnd YES there are no emissions out side of the e-cat. (only on the inside) slap / slap / slap ---- wake up man! Your dreaming in the past.
That to me sounds like bend-over-ass-backwards Rossi fanboy talk.
The government asks you if your device produces radiation and you say no because of a "technicality?" Oh jeez, the device produces radiation but we shield it therefore we can tell the government that the device does not produce radiation. You must be out of your mind. You are the one that needs the bitch-slapping, maybe you will wake up.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 16, 2012, 12:41:36 AM
Lumen:
I don't remember the specifics in the report and if you are right then I stand corrected - within limits. Within limits in the sense that you have to ask yourself why someone would lie to a federal agent if he asked you if you had a factory in the US. Do you really think in the real world you can get off because of "technicalities" in your choice of words? If the federal dude asks you if you have a factory in the US and the fatory is allegedly just a few months away from manufacturing a 1MW E-Cat you can't tell the federal agent that "CURRENTLY ALL PRODUCTION IS OVER SEAS!" It's just insane.
That to me sounds like bend-over-ass-backwards Rossi fanboy talk.
The government asks you if your device produces radiation and you say no because of a "technicality?" Oh jeez, the device produces radiation but we shield it therefore we can tell the government that the device does not produce radiation. You must be out of your mind. You are the one that needs the bitch-slapping, maybe you will wake up.
MileHigh
You dont remember specifics? Then why are you posting as if you really know what you are talking about, when all you remember are Maybe the basics. That being that you dont remember the specifics. And that meaning that you are stating you did know at one point but dont know. So how the heck would you even entertain the thought that we must believe that you have even remembered the basics, upon which you draw conclusions and assumptions without detailed knowledge of any specifics, when you clearly admit to not remembering any specifics at all?
Selective memory serves you well when need be in these situations. ;)
So why is your memory so keen on the basics but completely flawed all the way on the specifics? Yet you argue with these guys that DO read and remember the specifics, and tell them they need bitch slapping? Like Lumen says, you must be a Dumb Ass. ;)
Just like when you tried to describe Larskros circuit to me, you claimed that the red led would bias on at 1v and that the battery was powering the led directly. You change common values and data just to suit your side of the story in argument.
You admitted then that you didnt remember for sure on the 1v red led as it was 30 some years ago. More selective memory? When need be? Or maybe you fully knew that the red led could not possibly be biased on with a 1.2v batt and.... na couldnt be. 8)
Well, now we will pay a bit more attn to when you say you dont remember somethings, and we will be able to judge whether you have selective memory or not because we will pay more attn to the specifics from now on. :o ;)
And you tell these guys they are out of their minds? And "That to me sounds like bend-over-ass-backwards Rossi fanboy talk." Thats pretty bold from someone who doesnt remember the specifics, to the ones that do know the specifics.
And as for the radiation, why does it sound so impossible to get the ecat approved, when its ok for children to heat up a hot pocket in the microwave, in the kitchen, of the home?
Idiot
Mags
Mags:
You are getting proficient at word salads also. I owned up to my mistake, what more do you want? I don't retain everything I read about Rossi because I am not 'mentally engaged' with the whole deal.
My main points questioning Rossi's integrity and his veracity come from Rosssi's actions himself, and I haven't heard any cogent arguments to defend him. Instead all I hear is spoiled-sport complaining abut me. This has happened in the past also.
QuoteIdiot
Remember I discussed a circuit with a power supply and a single component - just one lousy component? You couldn't answer my question about that circuit. Instead, it started to sound like you were parroting all the things I tried to teach you and others on OUR. So perhaps it never sunk in but you can parrot a few sentences? So you knock 'em dead with all of your experimentation Mags. It will be our little secret that you don't really know what you are doing.
MileHigh
Hi guys, I see this thread is getting its own share of 'dampening'. And correspondingly I see that Harti's readership levels are falling from that earlier all time high. I'm not sure that any opinions matter quite frankly. What Chess is giving us is a regular FACTUAL update. And what MileHigh is trying to do is throw cold water on all that good news. Since that water is not going to make a blind bit of difference to the strong interest we all have in the E-cat and any similar - then perhaps one should just ignore that water - or better still - enjoy it.
Chess - your efforts and commitment - as ever. LAUDABLE AND MUCH APPRECIATED. This is still my 'retreat' when the going gets tough. So. THANK YOU. All of you who actually contribute to this. I am entirely satisfied that LENR or COLD FUSION - or call it what you will - this technology will launch us into a new age of physics. And more to the point it will salvage us from those excesses that we've indulged in the use of fossil and nuclear energy. So. It's about as worthwhile a cause as is possible.
I STILL do not understand why the nay sayers bother? Is it really likely to make a difference? I just can't see it. With undeveloped technology they can still do damage. But SURELY not when it's at the stage of development that Rossi's taken it. Chess? Is there some explanation for this? Could it be an agenda? Or is it just sheer bloody minded determination to DEPRESS every one who engages here?
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
Quote from: MileHigh on May 16, 2012, 03:03:18 AM
Mags:
You are getting proficient at word salads also. I owned up to my mistake, what more do you want? I don't retain everything I read about Rossi because I am not 'mentally engaged' with the whole deal.
My main points questioning Rossi's integrity and his veracity come from Rosssi's actions himself, and I haven't heard any cogent arguments to defend him. Instead all I hear is spoiled-sport complaining abut me. This has happened in the past also.
Remember I discussed a circuit with a power supply and a single component - just one lousy component? You couldn't answer my question about that circuit. Instead, it started to sound like you were parroting all the things I tried to teach you and others on OUR. So perhaps it never sunk in but you can parrot a few sentences? So you knock 'em dead with all of your experimentation Mags. It will be our little secret that you don't really know what you are doing.
MileHigh
Word salad? Its only you here that would try discredit what I say without any detail at all as to why, except word salad. This has been your phrase lately with Rose also. Well its pretty worn out now dont ya think? Parrot? Inane? Tk used "inane" a couple times and look who the parrot really is here. :o ;) So how do ya like dem apples Polly? ;)
And as for your so called discussion with me on inductors, that is what you are speaking of I believe, I dont think your way of teaching works very well. As you have admitted to in that discussion.
I can post it here, just in case you dont "remember" that "specifically" :o ;)
Theres some salad fer ya. ;D
Mags
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 16, 2012, 03:21:42 AM
Hi guys, I see this thread is getting its own share of 'dampening'. And correspondingly I see that Harti's readership levels are falling from that earlier all time high. I'm not sure that any opinions matter quite frankly. What Chess is giving us is a regular FACTUAL update. And what MileHigh is trying to do is throw cold water on all that good news. Since that water is not going to make a blind bit of difference to the strong interest we all have in the E-cat and any similar - then perhaps one should just ignore that water - or better still - enjoy it.
Chess - your efforts and commitment - as ever. LAUDABLE AND MUCH APPRECIATED. This is still my 'retreat' when the going gets tough. So. THANK YOU. All of you who actually contribute to this. I am entirely satisfied that LENR or COLD FUSION - or call it what you will - this technology will launch us into a new age of physics. And more to the point it will salvage us from those excesses that we've indulged in the use of fossil and nuclear energy. So. It's about as worthwhile a cause as is possible.
I STILL do not understand why the nay sayers bother? Is it really likely to make a difference? I just can't see it. With undeveloped technology they can still do damage. But SURELY not when it's at the stage of development that Rossi's taken it. Chess? Is there some explanation for this? Could it be an agenda? Or is it just sheer bloody minded determination to DEPRESS every one who engages here?
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
@Rosemary:
I am convinced that it is indeed an agenda. We are all sitting here discussing how this
revolutionary technology is going to change the world and lead to economic stability and
environmental preservation. Not everybody wants the world to change. Some like it just the way it is. Some have become quite accustomed and addicted to power and dominance and having the ability to make the majority of the world's population go broke while they make record profits and are able to buy up corporations and properties for pennies on the dollar. This is not good news for everybody.
Then there's the hot fusion freeloaders on the government meal ticket. Rossi's technology is just as bad as solving the problems associated with hot fusion. It puts an end to what some would hope to be an endless gravy train. It robs them of grants, investments and other sources of financial support. In addition, why will we need to have ANY conventional nuclear power plants when Rossi delivers with not only monetary savings, but also with superior environmental and public safety as well?
The foregoing is only a couple of those who LOSE THEIR ASSES in this deal. I'm sure you can come up with several more on your own.
And they are not even waiting for Rossi's home units to hit the market. They know that it's
all over for them once this happens. They are already getting their flunkies to make safety
complaints to government agencies in hopes of causing the government to do what they can not do legally. Just look closer at the recent complaint by Gary Wright and you'll notice how
much the complaintant is willing to help the government build a case against Rossi. I mean
he "bends over ass backwards" to give legal advice and sources of various other kinds of
information with the hopes that something will stick. In fact, the closer you look at the
complaint, the more you start to wonder if this was not the work of a team of lawyers
working together behind the scenes and then trying to pass it off as simply a routine LONE
citizen's complaint through one man.
Look how much mainstream press attention Rossi has received. Very little. In fact, recently
there was an actress who received a bad hair cut that got more mainstream news coverage than Rossi has.
Don't be surprised if the disinformation agents start to admit and acknowledge that LENR
technology is in fact for real. This is how they portray themselves as openminded observers
to avoid detection. Even a pool hustler will purposely throw a couple of games in order to
rope in a sucker.
A shop lifter doesn't just walk into a store and say, "I'm a shoplifter so be sure to alert
security so they can keep their cameras trained on me". This would destroy their effectiveness. No, instead the shoplifter tries to blend in with the crowd of shoppers and act like he/she is legitimately there to buy something like everybody else.
The false information being sown into the discussion is designed to undermine the legitimacy
of Rossi's (and his LENR competition) products in hopes to persuade potential E-Cat owners
that Rossi's products are too good to be true. Like I said before, it's even how
presidential administrations sell the public on wars which are really waged on false
pretenses. And this stuff can really work. Just as sure as the public backed Bush Jr. as
he started the war of his fantasies...the Iraq War.
Thank you, Rosemary, for your valued input into this extremely important topic of discussion. My thanks also goes out to all of those of you out there that are spreading this good news and standing up to the sold out bullies.
My very best regards,
Chess
Chess:
I can't tell you how many times I have read suspicions that there is an 'agenda' out there. Like let's say someone on this site has no background in electronics or motors and barely knows how to use a multimeter. This hypothetical person builds a pulse motor in some unique and different configuration and makes a few clips. Then suppose that he or she gets bored of the whole thing and then stops.
You know that many people will speculate that the "MIB" got to the guy. They sent out a Special Forces team to confiscate his motor and threaten him into silence.
Do you realize how ridiculous that is? The notion that someone can stumble upon a "magic" configuration and that person then has to be suppressed. The person never even presented any evidence that something unusual was taking place.
So your thinking is along those lines. Just go to any LENR web site and start reading the comments. A juicy Rossi-related posted article can spawn several hundred comments. In those comments you will find lots of people that share my point of view - they want to see concrete proof. I know that you have seen what I am talking about.
Why did Rossi refuse the one million dollar offer to prove that his system is real? You must realize that it would have made the cover of Time and Newsweek - if it were true. You realize that that hypothetical event would have been worth $50 million in free publicity. With that one test literally billions of people would have been made aware of the E-Cat - if it actually worked.
So you think that Rossi is "too busy" from his schedule to pass on one million dollars cash for his company and $50 million worth of free publicity?
Why didn't he take up the offer?
Whether you like it or not, Rossi is basically a poster boy for "how to make it look like your company is a scam."
So we can wait, not much else that we can do.
MileHigh
Hi Chess,
Thanks for the reply. It's indeed worrisome and a tribute to the efficacy of our trolls - that this LENR or Cold Fusion technology is STILL not hitting mainstream. That IS perturbing. I think we should all do our level best to 'spread the news'. I'm certainly doing my bit here. But probably not enough as it's not the full focus of my efforts at the moment. Which is why your own efforts - and all you guys here - is so REQUIRED. And I pray for Rossi. He's certainly going to need some Devine intervention if he's going to navigate the full force of objections - which as you've hinted at - is still coming on stream. One dedicated mainstream article on LENR - and I think the entire world would wake up. It's got to happen. Sooner or later.
For some reason I get NO NOTIFICATION of posts from this thread. And I only occasionally get notification on other threads to which I subscribe. Most annoying. If I didn't know better I'd say it's part of that 'editorial bias' to which I'm subject. LOL
Not my best day here Chessnyt. I sent you an email BTW. Let me know your thoughts.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Hello MileHigh
Regarding this post of yours...
Quote from: MileHigh on May 16, 2012, 11:35:26 PM
I can't tell you how many times I have read suspicions that there is an 'agenda' out there. Like let's say someone on this site has no background in electronics or motors and barely knows how to use a multimeter. This hypothetical person builds a pulse motor in some unique and different configuration and makes a few clips. Then suppose that he or she gets bored of the whole thing and then stops.
You know that many people will speculate that the "MIB" got to the guy. They sent out a Special Forces team to confiscate his motor and threaten him into silence.
Do you realize how ridiculous that is? The notion that someone can stumble upon a "magic" configuration and that person then has to be suppressed. The person never even presented any evidence that something unusual was taking place.
If I didn't know better I'd say that you're inferring and implying and insinuating your way to a circuitous point here. You need to learn the art of 'direct reference'. But then your spin would be readily contradicted and you well know this. You really are that dedicated propagandist. If you ever dealt with the 'real truth' as you put it - then I would have admired your persistence. I'm sure we all would. As it is we see that heavy handed hand waving - with all the finesse of charging hippopotamus - and with considerably less grace and force. LOL Unlike you, when I wave my hand I start off by looking at my clenched fist. Then I point at the sky, repeatedly. But I use my middle finger as I find it's way more 'explicit'.
Rosie Pose
Rosemary:
QuoteOne dedicated mainstream article on LENR - and I think the entire world would wake up.
Wrong, one serious demo where the device is verified by independent third-party testers and the entire world will wake up. Rossi claims that this will happen "when he goes into production" because he is "too busy" to prove the merits of his technology in the real world.
What you are doing is just whining and complaining. It just like you have accused people of preventing certain experimentalists from succeeding with their test units because of postings on a free energy forum chat board. How can that possibly ruin somebody's actual physical experiment sitting on their bench? It's just more whining.
QuoteYou really are that dedicated propagandist.
You are the dedicated propagandist. You try to allege that highly skilled and intelligent people with decades of experience in the realm of electronics and measurement are basically morons. You do this the moment you think that they are a threat to your free energy proposition. When you do that you are a low-life lying propagandist and I have made it abundantly clear to you that
it has to stop. You demean and degrade yourself when you do that and it's ghetto gutter bahaviour that that is not fooling anybody.
So no more nonsensical and ugly and untrue propaganda from you Rosemary.
If I wanted to I could cite 50 instances of this horrible behaviour from you to back up my claim so it's time for you to stop.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 17, 2012, 12:40:08 PM
Wrong, one serious demo where the device is verified by independent third-party testers and the entire world will wake up. Rossi claims that this will happen "when he goes into production" because he is "too busy" to prove the merits of his technology in the real world.
Wrong. Rossi has done more than ONE such demonstration independently verified and that by EXPERTS. He does NOT claim that verification will only happen when he goes into production... Is the first point.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 17, 2012, 12:40:08 PMWhat you are doing is just whining and complaining. It just like you have accused people of preventing certain experimentalists from succeeding with their test units because of postings on a free energy forum chat board. How can that possibly ruin somebody's actual physical experiment sitting on their bench? It's just more whining.
Wrong. I've specifically stated in my penultimate post that I very much doubt that our opinions are likely to make a blind bit of difference. And that includes your own.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 17, 2012, 12:40:08 PMYou are the dedicated propagandist. You try to allege that highly skilled and intelligent people with decades of experience in the realm of electronics and measurement are basically morons. You do this the moment you think that they are a threat to your free energy proposition.
Wrong. I only object to slander. I have NO objection to any sincere and skilled analysis related to any technology at all.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 17, 2012, 12:40:08 PMWhen you do that you are a low-life lying propagandist and I have made it abundantly clear to you that it has to stop.
You are - yet again - indulging in a criminal and unacceptable level of slander. And decent upright citizens do NOT, as a rule, indulge this.
Rosie Posie
Rosemary:
I have told you that you are the one indulging in slander when you demean and degrade highly skilled and experienced people, and when you demean and degrade their technical discussion.
You are the one that has to act like a decent upright citizen and get yourself out of the gutter.
QuoteWrong. Rossi has done more than ONE such demonstration independently verified and that by EXPERTS.
No he has absolutely not done that at all. This is fact and it can be verified easily. Only people like you that have glazed eyes for free energy schemes operate on faith that the the incomplete presentations you see are factual proof. The free energy con artists out there in the world, and I am not stating that Rossi is one of them, rely on this gullible naivete to make money. That's why the "perendev motor" guy was rich and driving around in a sports car - until he got busted and thrown in jail.
MileHigh
MileHigh:
The problem with verifying Rossi's e-cat is that no test will prove to everyone that it works. Look at yourself, even in the face of increasing information and even others claiming similar devices, you still believe it's some type of scam.
Even if you saw the e-cat working and did your own testing until you were fully satisfied, it would only be a day until someone could say to you "that thing doesn't work, did you see the ..... it's a scam for sure." Then as time went by you would again believe it to be scam. This is the nature of your thinking along with many others, and cannot be changed.
Rossi already knows this to be true and that further proof that it works will only require further proof that it works. Surely in your own mind you can see this as a perpetual waste of time!
I mean, how can you know for sure you can trust the results from third party testing? Maybe he knows those doing the testing and are helping him in his scam!
The ONLY way to prove it works is build and sell them so anyone can purchase it and test it without slowing progress for those of us that already understand it works.
Perendev! Now you see what happens to scammers. So why worry about them?
"I've found this awesome video guide on youtube on how to build your own DTG printer for less than $50"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP1wZ3feyzQ
@Everyone:
Here are some more recent quotes from Rossi:
Andrea Rossi
May 15th, 2012 at 10:39 PM
Dear Alex 2E:
In this moment your question is very important, even if I have already answered to it many times in the past, but it is opportune to remember that:
1- We made thousands of hours of measurements with specialists from the University of Bologna (Prof. Sergio Focardi, Dr David Bianchini, Prof. Pierluigi Rossi et al.) to detect the radiations out of the E-Cats and around: never have been found values significantly above the background
2- microwaves ovens, cell phones, television sets have values not inferior than the E-Cats, and the laws regarding such appliances are the same valid for the E-Cats
3- I spend not less than an average of 10 hours per day in proximity of operating E-Cats from the year 2008.
Thank you very much for your important question.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Andrea Rossi
May 16th, 2012 at 9:58 AM
Dear Antonella:
We must put a clear distinction between competitors, acting as “neutral validators†and true scientists: we are working very well with many of the best scientists who are helping us very much. I am referring, among the others, to the military scientists working on our plant.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Pekka Janhunen
May 17th, 2012 at 10:48 AM
The claimed ‘conflicting statements’ about nuclear/non-nuclear in the De Vincenti text possibly has its origin in an Internet misquotation of a Florida radiation official’s written statement which I here assume is authentic (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/docs/20120309BRC-Report.pdf (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/docs/20120309BRC-Report.pdf), page 31):
“He acknowledged that no nuclear reactions occur during the process and that only low energy photons in the energy range of 50-100 keV occur within the device. There are no radiation readings above background when the device is in operation. Since the device is not a reactor, the NRC does not have jurisdiction. Since there is no radioactive materials used in the construction and no radioactive waste is generated by it, the State of Florida. Bureau of Radiation Control has no jurisdiction.â€
Almost nothing could be clearer than this. Still, some people managed to mix it up, because “he acknowledged that no nuclear reactions occur during the process†was echoed on some websites as a ‘proof’ that Rossi had been double-tongued about radiation. They dropped the continuation of the sentence which makes it purposeful.
It seems that in the radiation authority’s language, the word “nuclear†has a specific meaning which covers fissionable and radioactive isotopes, but does not include photon sources such as x-ray machines or E-cats.
One can claim on the Net anything. In this case it seems that a Net misquotation found its way to the undersecretary’s statement.
Andrea Rossi
May 17th, 2012 at 5:16 PM
Dear Pekka Janhunen:
You are right, but the persons that misrepresented the statement are experts who made it on purpose, to damage us.
The USA Authority has been absolutely perfect and right.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
So it is very important for everyone here to associate false statements and misleading spin with propaganda and trolls. There is no reason to make false statements unless the truth is not on their side.
The truth is that I not only have "real-world experience on the tech side of things", but I have been working with high tech equipment and systems for over 20 years. It's how I make my living and if I didn't know my business, I'd be out of a job by now.
It's funny how the ones stating I have "no real-world experience on the tech side of things" are the ones that have never heard of quadrium until I taught them about it ;) That is also fact 8)
Enjoy,
Chess
Quote from: MileHigh on April 04, 2012, 11:52:45 AM
Gravityblock:
The problem is that these are your personal theories and I am going to assume that you don't have anything to back them up. You cannot extend the concept of electromagnetic radiation to the weak nuclear force. From what I understand the strong force and the weak force can be compared to gravitational force, but only acting at very short distances, and they are not comparable to electromagnetic radiation. There is no "wavelength" or "intensity" or propagation through a medium associated with the weak force to make the weak force analogous to EM radiation. Your comparison is not valid in my opinion.
...
......
You are implying that everything is at a lower level. In my opinion you are missing the point. "Low level" refers to the amount of energy required to get one nucleus to smash into another nucleus with enough force to create fusion. It has nothing to do the resulting reaction after the fusion takes place. Seriously, anybody reading this that thought "everything is different" is making a big mistake.
MileHigh
I'm going to answer this dumbass post of yours for the second time. You say I can't extend the concept of the electromagnetic radiation to the weak nuclear force. This is exactly what the standard model does, which I've already shown via reply #1074 (http://www.overunity.com/11404/first-free-energy-device-reaches-market-in-october-the-game-changer-is-here/msg319956/#msg319956), which includes references to Frank Wilczek, a Nobel Prize Winner. You say this is my own personal theory and you will assume I have nothing to back it up. I have the standard model which has combined the weak and electromagnetic interactions into an unified electroweak theory (http://particleadventure.org/electroweak.html). You say my comparison isn't valid in your opinion. Well, I personally don't think your opinion against my comparison holds much weight, especially against a nobel prize winner and the standard model.
Low level gamma rays refers to low velocity and momentum, which is due to the huge difference in mass between the W and Z particles as compared to conventional photons with no mass. The weak and electromagnetic forces have essentially equal strengths. This is because the strength of the interaction depends strongly on both the mass of the force carrier and the distance of the interaction. If Rossi was referring to highly energetic x-rays, then he would have used the term "soft" gamma rays or "hard" x-rays instead of using "low level" gamma rays.
Low level Nuclear Reactions occur when the force carrying particles (photons, and W &Z particles) of the electroweak force converge where their mass are equal, thus the strength and range of the force becomes the same for the force carrying bosons (photons and W-Z particles). In other words, LENR's is the result where the strength and range of the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces converge with each other. It's proven that Radio Frequencies increase the LENR's considerably. The RF can be considered a source of mass for the electroweak or LENR interactions (electromagnetic and weak nuclear interactions). This RF mass is then converted into pure energy during the electroweak interactions. This is where the excess heat is generated.
Gravock
Lumen:
I have read that comment many times for various propositions, "no test will satisfy bla bla." I don't buy it. I have read several proposals for tests that sounded 100% legitimate. Any scientist worth his or her salt will be able to present credible data - run a single unit for two weeks continuously with water temp in and water temp out and water flow constantly monitored and the electrical power being provided to the device constantly monitored. It's doable.
Chess:
Quotehe truth is that I not only have "real-world experience on the tech side of things", but I have been working with high tech equipment and systems for over 20 years. It's how I make my living and if I didn't know my business, I'd be out of a job by now.
Did you say that you program relay ladder logic systems and PLC controllers? Technology is a pretty wide field. When you made reference to the danger of the "boiler" blowing up I made the assumption that you had no clue what an automatic pressure release valve was. There were half a dozen clues that you are out of your realm.
Quotet's funny how the ones stating I have "no real-world experience on the tech side of things" are the ones that have never heard of quadrium until I taught them about it (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fwink.gif&hash=0d9aacf9391b7fda4adbf7cd091f687bfd283341) That is also fact (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fcool.gif&hash=55307402a10df1e2ad83f381fa1f5c857069935d)
Ha ha ha, that's really funny. I have been watching science shows for 40+ years and took a few physics and chemistry courses and try to keep my mind active and I can't recall ever hearing mention of quadrium. I make no apologies. 8)
Gravityblock:
The web site you linked to looked 100% legit. The Electroweak theory seems interesting. I am not qualified to converse about quantum theory and nuclear physics. The problem I have is that what may be "so obvious" to you might not be with other LENR researchers or maintream nuclear physicists. We can wait and see if the three main proponents in this drama actually produce a working industrial or commercial system.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 18, 2012, 01:10:15 AM
I have read that comment many times for various propositions, "no test will satisfy bla bla." I don't buy it. I have read several proposals for tests that sounded 100% legitimate. Any scientist worth his or her salt will be able to present credible data - run a single unit for two weeks continuously with water temp in and water temp out and water flow constantly monitored and the electrical power being provided to the device constantly monitored. It's doable.
MileHigh
Yes you are right!
You could then simply read the results and believe they are true!
@MileOff:
Quote from: MileHigh on May 18, 2012, 01:10:15 AM
Chess:
Did you say that you program relay ladder logic systems and PLC controllers? Technology is a pretty wide field.
No, what I actually said was "Part of my expertise is in the automation of industrial processes and equipment...". Notice the first word? Notice I didn't say "all"? Now pay attention so I don't have to keep taking you to school. This is getting old having to take you by the hand.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 18, 2012, 01:10:15 AM
When you made reference to the danger of the "boiler" blowing up I made the assumption that you had no clue what an automatic pressure release valve was.
I have worked on high pressure steam systems before and I sure as hell already knew about
automatic pressure release valves before you jumped to conclusions (a bad habit of yours) and ASSUMED that I did not.
Now if anyone wants to see (once again ;D ;D ;D ) that MileHigh is a mile off, just go to Reply #515 of this thread. Here's a quote from that reply (back in January ::) ) where I had mentioned such a safety device:
"There have been steam driven devices and systems long before the arrival of the grid. There are safety relief valves (even your water heater in your home has to have one) which open up automatically when a safe pressure has been exceeded." Once again, you have put your foot in your mouth trying to spread disinformation and you have made a COMPLETE fool out of yourself in the process. You hang yourself every time.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 18, 2012, 01:10:15 AM
Ha ha ha, that's really funny. I have been watching science shows for 40 years and took a few physics and chemistry courses and try to keep my mind active and I can't recall ever hearing mention of quadrium. I make no apologies. 8)
And no, you should not apologise for your own ignorance. I realize that you can not help it that you are inadequate.
Now before you start another pissing contest with me, you just may want to ask yourself just one little question. Do you feel lucky? Well do you?
Chess
Okay big man, I will take the bait...
QuoteI predict that electric utility providers and large industrial factories will be the ones to purchase the 1MW E-Cats for the most part, but only when it's fully ready to produce high temperature steam (which is in the near future due to Rossi's advancements as of late).
1MW is a negligible amount of power for an electric utility so you are not making any sense.
QuoteIf the home units were able to make high temperature steam, then you would need a boiler in order to accumulate the proper/necessary steam pressure to run an efficient steam turbine.
The whole notion of homes having their own steam turbine power generation systems doesn't make sense to me. I really doubt that you could even find a 10 KW steam turbine or a steam turbine generator. It sounds way too small so I doubt they exist as mainstream off-the-shelf products. There is also the problem of the varying load for a single home and one would think that a steam turbine system would not be a good fit for that. Then there is another problem for an E-Cat/turbine/generator for home electricity. If your house is not drawing a load but your E-Cat is on, then the E-Cat is drawing power from the grid - more wasted grid power and money.
So feel free to go ahead and prove me wrong. Show where you can get something to meet your needs and how much it costs.
QuoteNow just addressing Rossi's system (the home E-Cat); if it produces high temperature steam, then even a leak anywhere in the output lines can cause serious damage to life and property as high pressure leaks are almost invisible to the naked eye yet they can be sufficient to sever human limbs.
Indeed high-pressure steam, air, or water can be extremely dangerous. But for a hypothetical home unit the danger would be designed out of the device. Somebody else posted that any steam pipes would have an outer protective pipe to prevent little Johnny's arm from being sliced off. More likely the steam pipes would be inside the unit and not readily accessible by the home users. Where is your common sense?
QuoteThis is the other safety risks involved in such a system besides the potential for the boiler to explode (which could also cause great bodily harm and take out walls in close proximity).
No reference to automatic pressure release valves here - nor do I have an intimate knowledge of every single posting you have ever made on this forum. With that in mind your comment about exploding E-Cat boilers taking out walls in a house sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?
QuoteMy plan is to purchase one of his home E-Cats and use it to drive a "wet" steam engine with a lower temperature boiler in series which in turn would drive an inefficient electric generator. My whole idea is not to produce enough power to run my entire house. Rather, I would simply be running a small generator in which I could charge a bank of batteries with while I'm sleeping (for 8 hours) and while I'm at work (for 10 hours more).
Not much common sense at all in that comment, you are on a forum devoted to energy research so what gives? I count at least five stages in your hypothetical system and at each stage you will lose energy. You will wipe out all of the alleged gains that your E-Cat is supposed to give you (can't forget that it draws power from the grid.) So you will end up underwater with your grandiose plan to use an E-Cat to keep a bank of batteries charged to then drive an inverter. I wasn't joking when I said that you would be better off simply bypassing your whole system and connecting straight to the grid.
QuoteYou have stated the most popular use of the home E-Cat which is indeed home heating. More specifically, homes located in cold regions where electric heaters are cost prohibitive. These are homes that are usually equipted with heating systems that require heating oil. Rossi can save these people a small fortune relatively quickly.
My question was serious about the ROI calculation. You really think a Rossi system can save people a small fortune for home heating in cold regions? Doesn't an E-Cat supposedly take one full hour to start up? So that's one hour's worth of electrical energy that you pay for but get no return on. It's a real dilemma isn't it? Do you keep your E-Cat on all the time and constantly draw power from the grid or do you shut it down one or more times a day and incur the electricity costs for the one-hour start up? Some people prefer to simply turn off the heat overnight. I don't think anyone at this point has enough data to say that an E-Cat for home heating will save people a "small fortune." If you are confident that what you are saying is true then how about showing us the numbers?
QuoteNotice I didn't say "all"? Now pay attention so I don't have to keep taking you to school. This is getting old having to take you by the hand.
Keep stroking yourself like that and something is going to pop.
QuoteOnce again, you have put your foot in your mouth trying to spread disinformation and you have made a COMPLETE fool out of yourself in the process. You hang yourself every time.
Still stroking.
QuoteAnd no, you should not apologise for your own ignorance. I realize that you can not help it that you are inadequate.
Heavy breathing now....
QuoteNow before you start another pissing contest with me, you just may want to ask yourself just one little question. Do you feel lucky?
Do you feel sticky?
MileHigh
@all: regarding the troll's notion that "1MW is a negligible amount of power for an electric utility"
please see this page:
http://www.earthera.com/Media/EarthEraConnections/NewsletterView/tabid/247/ArticleID/159/smid/957/reftab/245/Default.aspx
note that this is 196.5-megawatt project, consisting of 131 wind turbines, capable of generating enough electricity to power more than 50,000 homes.
rhetorical question for the troll... 196.5/131 = how many MW's ? obviously, electric utilities most certainly are interested in 1MW units, as evidenced by REALITY.
but give him some credit folks... it's pretty hard to put your foot in your mouth like that when you've got your head so far up your arse.
Oh grotesque oozing farting Chet-monster Wil-beast, you are back again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfggccwQrcY
I looked up the annual electrical energy consumption of the State of New York, and in 2005 it was 150,000 million kWh.
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/states/electricity.cfm/state=ny#total
So if you do the math that's about 17,000 megawatts of power. And a typical medium-sized energy production facility is about 2000 megawatts.
When you play dumb to make a stupid point to get your wank material you just look stupid. I am sure that you have heard of the term "economies of scale." That's why turbine generators in power plants are really really big. Duh!! Wil-beast Duh!!
MileHigh
@all
"New York City is home to several clean energy projects. Two attempts to provide electricity to Roosevelt Island by installing underwater turbines in the East River failed when the turbine blades were torn off by currents. An improved turbine design proved to be successful and on 23 January 2012 FERC issed a 10-year pilot commercial license to Verdant Power’s RITE Project â€" the first commercial license for tidal power in the US. Under the license, Verdant Power expects to generate up to 1 megawatt after a staged installation of up to 30 turbines. Planning is also underway to construct windmills on a hill in the former Fresh Kills Landfill. The wind energy project would power 5,000 homes on Staten Island."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_issues_in_New_York_City
more proof that milehigh is full of shyte...
The grotesque Chet-monster Wil-beast speaks again...
Quoteneg·li·gi·ble adj. Not significant or important enough to be worth considering; trifling.
Now if the Wil-beast has to consume 2000 calories worth of food per day in the form of flies and insects to remain the miserable sap that he is... How will the Wil-beast react if his sticky tongue only manages to capture one fly per day that has only one calorie worth of food value? He would whine and fart and ooze and complain that one calorie is negligible and he will have to go down into the sewers and look for dead maggots.
More proof that "Bad vibes all the time - Bad vibes get me off and I need some Kleenex" grotesque Wil-beast is full of puss and bile.
Who hates you baby?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQTV2FVL8jw
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 19, 2012, 02:26:30 AM
No reference to automatic pressure release valves here - nor do I have an intimate knowledge of every single posting you have ever made on this forum. With that in mind your comment about exploding E-Cat boilers taking out walls in a house sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?
Quote from: MileHigh on May 19, 2012, 02:26:30 AM
Okay big man, I will take the bait...
You didn't just take the bait, you swallowed the hook line and sinker!! I had to pry the tip of my pole out of your mouth ;D ;D I still have an impression of your nose on the bottom of my boot.
There was a reason I didn't mention the pressure relief valve in the previous context, jackass. It's because a boiler can explode EVEN with a pressure relief valve in place and in propper working order! (and not because I didn't know about pressure relief valves obviously, because I mentioned these devices in this very thread back in JANUARY of this year in reply #515)
Embrittlement of boiler metal is normally referred to as caustic embrittlement or intercrystalline cracking. Failure of a boiler due to caustic embrittlement is normally undetectable during operating conditions; it generally occurs suddenly, with catastrophic results.
But then again, ignorance is bliss, right MileOff?
Chess
MH has proven that his level of maturity is far beyond our comprehension.
He is the one in the panties and bra. The one that tries to make Chet into the blob, all because Mr panties has done wrong and the more responsible Chet is not happy with how his parents house got nearly destroyed by Mr Panties antics and tricks.
Ive seen the movie many times. Mr Panties is a fake. And the Chet as a blob is just an illusion that Mr Panties would like all to believe.
Again, M has dirtied his panties and tries to provide distractions in hopes that others might not notice the bad smell.
M, you dirty girl
Mags
Chess:
It sounds like you did a lot of Google searching. Good for you it makes you smarter. You have a very selective memory through, don't you? Not a single peep about your "big project" to charge batteries with an E-Cat turbine generating system. No peeps about a host of other issues either.
Without doing any Google searching at all I would say that UL would not permit E-Cats with boilers to go onto the market if there was a very small chance of the catastrophic failure that you are talking about. They would insist that the boiler have an external boiler jacket or call it a "double hull" if you will. If the main boiler fails then the outer boiler hull will not fail because it is not subjected to repeated pressure stress like the boiler main hull is. The outer boiler hull will not be sealed, instead it will route the escaping steam out of the house via an exhaust outlet.
Sounds pretty reasonable, doesn't it? See what thinking outside the box can do for you?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh
When you made reference to the danger of the "boiler" blowing up I made the assumption that you had no clue what an automatic pressure release valve was.
You actually made two consecutive mistakes.
First, you assumed I didn't know what a pressure relief valve was (which was false):
Quote from: chessnyt Reply #515
There have been steam driven devices and systems long before the arrival of the grid. There are safety relief valves (even your water heater in your home has to have one) which open up automatically when a safe pressure has been exceeded.
And then you showed your ignorance by not being aware that a boiler can fail even when a pressure relief valve is in place and working properly:
Quote from: MileHigh
No reference to automatic pressure release valves here - nor do I have an intimate knowledge of every single posting you have ever made on this forum. With that in mind your comment about exploding E-Cat boilers taking out walls in a house sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?
...so I took you to school:
Quote from: chessnyt Reply #1191
Embrittlement of boiler metal is normally referred to as caustic embrittlement or intercrystalline cracking. Failure of a boiler due to caustic embrittlement is normally undetectable during operating conditions; it generally occurs suddenly, with catastrophic results.
Just because you can check on the internet to see I am correct (and I hoped you checked) does not mean I didn't know these things. You'd be surprised what I could teach you.
Now don't make me take to school again, young man ;)
Chess
Well Chess...
It looks like you have a brain fry going on. You can't even deal with what I am saying.
Are you by chance that crazy guy that runs the "Free Energy Truth" web site? I suppose that you wouldn't hurt a fly.
Let's see if Defkalion does something because they are next at bat for a milestone. They have promised to deliver in July, correct?
OMG I looked them up on Google to double-check the spelling and something seems amis:
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/
QuoteThis account has been suspended.
Either the domain has been overused, or the reseller ran out of resources.
I realize that they could have already run out of monthly bandwidth or it could be a glitch. Or this is foreshadowing something bad.
By the way, I have indeed heard of metal fatigue. The "school" comment is laughable and you make yourself look ridiculous.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 19, 2012, 10:04:47 PM
Well Chess...
It looks like you have a brain fry going on. You can't even deal with what I am saying.
Are you by chance that crazy guy that runs the "Free Energy Truth" web site? I suppose that you wouldn't hurt a fly.
Let's see if Defkalion does something because they are next at bat for a milestone. They have promised to deliver in July, correct?
OMG I looked them up on Google to double-check the spelling and something seems amis:
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/ (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/)
I realize that they could have already run out of monthly bandwidth or it could be a glitch. Or this is foreshadowing something bad.
By the way, I have indeed heard of metal fatigue. The "school" comment is laughable and you make yourself look ridiculous.
MileHigh
There's no way to save face here, Milow, as the cat is already out of the bag. We all know what a moron you are and you can't redirect our attention somewhere else to make any of us forget what you are.
Do you really think that you are the first person who tried to change the subject to cover something up?
ROTFLMFAO,
Chess
Keep trying dude. In your previous posting all that you could do was regurgitate what you had already said. I am not trying to deflect anything.
Can you tell us some more about the E-Cat-based battery charging and inverter system that you want to build?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 19, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
Keep trying dude. In your previous posting all that you could do was regurgitate what you had already said. I am not trying to deflect anything.
Can you tell us some more about the E-Cat-based battery charging and inverter system that you want to build?
MileHigh
Guys, it's one thing to let MileHigh dominate this thread - but it would be catastrophic if he were to bring it to 'lock down' which is what he's trying to do. I really think it may be as well to ignore him. Just a thought. What's nice though is to see the commitment to LENR from the rest of you. That's always the spin off from these 'contentions'. But it's my opinion that Harti would close up this topic in a heartbeat if and when he could get an excuse. And MileHigh's giving him that - by the wagon load.
And bear in mind. They're getting REALLY frantic. First barrier to fall is courtesy LENR. Who knows what's next. And as it's said 'if winter's here - can spring be far behind?'
Kindest regards
Rosemary
added
Quote from: MileHigh on May 19, 2012, 10:31:30 PM
Keep trying dude. In your previous posting all that you could do was regurgitate what you had already said. I am not trying to deflect anything.
Can you tell us some more about the E-Cat-based battery charging and inverter system that you want to build?
MileHigh
I would love to go there. In fact, I have even redesigned the complete package with a modification that removes the battery bank and inverter for starters. But first, why don't you acknowledge your mistakes like a man and admit that you were wrong?
We all know you were wrong as I caught you "red handed" spreading disinformation. Trying to change the subject just makes you look even sillier (if that's even possible) and increasingly pathetic. LOL
Regards,
Chess
P.S. Is your chair a little warm, Milow, or is your red face warming it up?
Quote from: chessnyt on May 19, 2012, 10:52:57 PM
Trying to change the subject just makes you look even sillier (if that's even possible) and increasingly pathetic. LOL
MH said,
Can you tell us some more about the E-Cat-based battery charging and inverter system that you want to build?
Yep, distraction.
Mags
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 19, 2012, 10:52:13 PM
Guys, it's one thing to let MileHigh dominate this thread - but it would be catastrophic if he were to bring it to 'lock down' which is what he's trying to do. I really think it may be as well to ignore him. Just a thought. What's nice though is to see the commitment to LENR from the rest of you. That's always the spin off from these 'contentions'. But it's my opinion that Harti would close up this topic in a heartbeat if and when he could get an excuse. And MileHigh's giving him that - by the wagon load.
And bear in mind. They're getting REALLY frantic. First barrier to fall is courtesy LENR. Who knows what's next. And as it's said 'if winter's here - can spring be far behind?'
Kindest regards
Rosemary
added
Very wise advice, Rosemary. I'm all done setting the record straight at least.
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess:
It's unbelievable how people will compromise themselves sometimes.
QuoteYou actually made two consecutive mistakes.
First, you assumed I didn't know what a pressure relief valve was (which was false):
You call that a "mistake?" The fact that I made an assumption based on what you posted is a "mistake?" You should be embarrassed by stooping so low.
QuoteAnd then you showed your ignorance by not being aware that a boiler can fail even when a pressure relief valve is in place and working properly:
Really? Did you you ask me if 100% of all boilers manufactured are guaranteed not to fail before the pressure release valve kicks in? The fact is that you did not ask me that question. Are 100% of condoms manufactured guaranteed to work properly? You are just making a loaded accusation at me. It's bullshit, you are stooping low again.
So your whole premise that "I made two mistakes and you taught me" is total bullshit.
Then I asked you about your plans to do an E-Cat based battery charging system just to make you squirm again. You still haven't had the character or courage to acknowledge my comments stating that it likely won't even work. Reading between the lines my conclusion is that you never even considered the efficiency losses for each step - which puts you in newbie territory. You will likely be better off just connecting straight to the grid.
Can you even post a link to an industrial-grade 10 kilowatt turbine? It's going to have to run closed loop with a condenser and last at least 30 years. You will need an industrial-grade transmission to bring the turbine speed down to mains frequency. That sounds like something really damn expensive to me. The ROI might be 75 years for all I know.
The feeling that I am getting from you is that your "project" is just a pie-in-the-sky fantasy for now and I would not be surprised if it would cost a fortune. Plus the high-temperature-steam producing E-Cat is pure vapourware as we speak.
QuoteTrying to change the subject just makes you look even sillier (if that's even possible) and increasingly pathetic.
Take a look in the mirror.
Rosemary:
Don't give me your paranoid rantings crap.
MileHigh
Quote from: Magluvin on May 19, 2012, 11:02:08 PM
MH said,
Can you tell us some more about the E-Cat-based battery charging and inverter system that you want to build?
Yep, distraction.
Mags
Yes, it is quite obvious, isn't it? It's even more pathetic than it is obvious. Especially now that he has sealed his fate and denied ANY wrong doing. But Reply #1194 says it all IN HIS OWN WORDS DIRECTLY QUOTED FROM THE SOURCE ;D It's not hard for people to see the obvious truth.
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess:
Try to keep a stiff upper lip and try to ignore the elephant in the room.
Good luck.
MileHigh
The following quote is from Rossi today:
"Andrea Rossi
May 19th, 2012 at 5:10 PM
Dear Franco:
We are working with good stability at 600 Celsius degrees. This, if confirmed by the next tests, clearly opens all the possible doors.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
p.s. Today, Saturday May 19th,right now, 6.10 p.m. in Miami, I am working at 600 Celsius with the new E-Cat"
It's exciting to watch history in the making ;D ;D ;D
Get excited people,
Chess
Hello Chess,
Quote from: chessnyt on May 20, 2012, 01:33:49 AM
The following quote is from Rossi today:
"Andrea Rossi
May 19th, 2012 at 5:10 PM
Dear Franco:
We are working with good stability at 600 Celsius degrees. This, if confirmed by the next tests, clearly opens all the possible doors.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
p.s. Today, Saturday May 19th,right now, 6.10 p.m. in Miami, I am working at 600 Celsius with the new E-Cat"
It's exciting to watch history in the making ;D ;D ;D
Get excited people,
Chess
INDEED it's good news. And THANK YOU CHESS. And WOW. I think that elephant in his armchair has lost his trumpet. How good is THAT?
As ever Chessnyt - Your work here is BRILLIANT.
Kindest as ever,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 20, 2012, 03:10:51 PM
Hello Chess,
INDEED it's good news. And THANK YOU CHESS. And WOW. I think that elephant in his armchair has lost his trumpet. How good is THAT?
As ever Chessnyt - Your work here is BRILLIANT.
Kindest as ever,
Rosie
@Rosemary:
Yes, it appears we are witnessing one of the most important advances in technology since the discovery of electricity.
Due to the stability achieved at 600 degrees C, Rossi is now in a position to deal with EVERY electrical power plant in the world no matter how large or how small. He can even retrofit ALL of the existing nuclear power plants with E-Cats as well. Rossi turned a HUGE CORNER yesterday.
Best Regards,
Chess
@EVERYONE:
I read an article today by Hank Mills that beautifully chronicles the E-Cat at every significant mile-stone. Here are some of my favorite excerpts:
"Basically, the E-Cat technology now has everything cold fusion researchers have been dreaming about for the last 20 or so years since Pons and Fleischmann made their press conference. The E-Cat……
â€" Utilizes no precious metals or expensive materials. The fuel is nickel and hydrogen. The catalyst is said to be 1/10th the cost of the nickel.
â€" Utilizes no radioactive materials.
â€" Produces no nuclear waste. Copper and small amounts of other stable elements are produced.
â€" Produces little radiation. The little that is produced can be easily shielded.
â€" Produces a high COP.
â€" Produces a huge amount of output â€" kilowatts instead of watts like other cold fusion systems.
â€" Produces high temperature steam up to 600C."
...and just as I predicted, now Hank Mills is sharing my views of this revolutionary new energy technology as well:
"This technology is going to change the world. If this technology is widely adopted, it will bring an end to the fossil fuel age. All other forms of conventional energy will be obsolete. Oil, natural gas, coal, wind, hydro-electric, and solar will all be phased out.
The COP will probably increase as well. A COP of six is already very high (hot fusion technology with billions of dollars in funding has never produced a COP of even 1.1), but in time it will go even higher.
The E-Cat revolution is about to be upon us. It is only a matter of time now until the first products are launched, they start being utilized by businesses and homes, and the next scientific revolution begins. The existence of a “cold fusion†technology that the mainstream scientific community claimed was impossible will prove to the world that nothing is impossible. Due to the E-Cat, the world 20 years from now will be nothing like the world today." --Hank Mills
Here's the link to the full article:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/the-quiet-evolution-of-a-more-puurfect-e-cat/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/the-quiet-evolution-of-a-more-puurfect-e-cat/)
Hot Regards 8) ,
Chess
My dear Chess
I personally think that our evolution always needs some kind of austerity to catapult it into higher achievement. I also think that the gross abuses of our energy monopolists was that catalyst for this new discovery. So. In a rather roundabout way - we've got those monopolists to thank as well as Rossi et al.
But Rossi - personally - is the hero of this story. He has clearly made it his quest to explore alternate energy sources. First with the manufacture of fuel from our vast waste resources. And then with the full force of his experimental genius - to show us the miracles of cold fusion. In both instances he stood up and is standing up against conventional and intellectual prejudice. No easy task. He needed to be the giant that he is. And that's the real miracle. Cometh the moment, cometh the man. He is ABSOLUTELY my hero.
I think, inside us all, there was acknowledgement of potential energy abundance. But to make it this readily accessible - also takes the argument away. Now we can all rest easy. Rossi has certainly given us all that potential freedom from that master/slave relationship that is the object of those monopolists. And the good news is that they'll be as relevant to our future as are dinosaurs relevant to our past. Its ALL GOOD.
Roll on tomorrow. Because therein lies substantial cause for CELEBRATION.
Kindest as ever,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 22, 2012, 12:06:36 AM
I think, inside us all, there was acknowledgement of potential energy abundance. But to make it this readily accessible - also takes the argument away. Now we can all rest easy. Rossi has certainly given us all that potential freedom from that master/slave relationship that is the object of those monopolists. And the good news is that they'll be as relevant to our future as are dinosaurs relevant to our past. Its ALL GOOD.
@Rosemary:
It's not only the petroleum industry that faces complete extinction but all mainstream media outlets as well, because there are those of us who also fully intend to use this mainstream media eclipse or blackout of LENR technology to overturn the public's trust in mainstream media sources altogether.
The silver lining in this cloud is the amount of time (the total duration) that the mainstream media has ignored or refused to inform the public of this amazing new revolutionary energy technological advance. Now to some this is seen as a terrible injustice and horrific deed, however, to others this presents an opportunity to completely undermine the entire mainstream media (news outlets or otherwise) industry to remove their dominance in mainstream society as a whole. The longer the story remains blacked out, the bigger tool this becomes later on to convince the masses that their trust has long been misplaced. If the mainstream media is missing epic news such as this, what else are they withholding from the public in general?
This is a very huge mistake on the part of the major networks (obviously it was not foreseen) and as you can imagine, one that grows daily until it inevitably becomes fatal.
Think about it. Once mainstream society discovers how long they have been kept in the dark concerning modern advances in cheaper and cleaner energy technology, the obvious reaction is to switch to the only sources that fought hard to inform them in the interim. These would be all of the alternative news sites on the internet that are not dictated to by mainstream media powerhouses. More advertising dollars will follow this switch and lead to even more powerful internet dynasties. The advertisers follow the crowd of potential buyers.
So there are those of us out here that predict how this public betrayal will play out in the end which is not to the benefit of BIG OIL or the major media networks.
Warmest of Regards,
Chess
Chess:
Sounds like a manifesto! lol You and Che, eh?
I can't see it panning out like you do assuming the miracle of getting energy from nickel and hydrogen comes true.
The oil industry will shrink considerably and we will have cheap gas for our cars and we won't have to worry about "destroying the world" when we go for a Sunday drive. But the industry will definitely not become extinct. There are many niches where it fits.
Mainstream media will not go away. You have to remember that not everybody thinks like you!
The fantasy really does promise for a bright future, we have unlimited amounts of hydrogen and nickel at our disposal. You just have to try to read between the lines. Let's cross our fingers, we desperately need a "shift to the real" if any of this is in fact true.
Chances are that the same power companies that supply electricity to the grid will be the ones that supply electricity to the grid using LENR technology. They are not simply going to roll over and play dead.
Almost nobody is going to want to have some kind of "reactor," nuclear or otherwise, in their basement. Try to take yourself out of your bubble for a second. The infrastructure to deliver power to their household is already in place, it's just a question of retrofitting new technology into the existing power plant infrastructure.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
and we won't have to worry about "destroying the world" when we go for a Sunday drive.
so you worry about "destroying the world" yet you go for sunday drives anyhow. ::) you really are a little chet-monster...
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
You have to remember that not everybody thinks like you!
as do you, troll.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
we have unlimited amounts of hydrogen and nickel at our disposal.
really? unlimited? are you certain of that? what proof do you have? are you suggesting the universe is infinite? what evidence do you have of that? liar.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
Almost nobody is going to want to have some kind of "reactor," nuclear or otherwise, in their basement. The infrastructure to deliver power to their household is already in place, it's just a question of retrofitting new technology into the existing power plant infrastructure.
MileHigh
what evidences do you have of this claim? none. try to take yourself out of your bubble for a second... ::) furthermore, the grid is inefficient and simply a means to control the public. it needs to go.
Wil-beast:
You are flailing your short stubby little arms.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:52:49 PM
Wil-beast:
You are flailing your short stubby little arms.
MileHigh
milelow, i am simply rebutting your misleading, lying, and malicious comments and you post another logical fallacy (red herring)... imagine that! tell me chet-monster, why is it that you cannot address the substance of my posts and continue with your juvenile responses?
try to stay on topic troll... i know it's hard for your immature mind, but give it your best shot.
@all: let's see if he has the character or courage to respond to my questions from my previous posting. don't hold your breath...
At high temperatures the nano nickel powder will form into big clusters, which is the opposite of what we need to maintain. However, Al
2O
3 powder can be used as a
catalyst support and the strong metalâ€support interaction can
prevent the aggregation of nanoâ€sized nickel into bigger clusters at high reaction temperature. All nanoâ€sized nickel particles which clings to the Al
2O
3 powder increases the reaction surface and thus
improves the catalyst efficiency. In addition to the Al
2O
3, fullerenes is the second part of the catalyst. Rossi's e-Cat uses the catalyst to dissociate molecular hydrogen into atomic hydrogen. Molecular hydrogen will dissociate into atomic hydrogen on fullerenes
with an energy gain. There is
an additional energy gain with the disintegration of the hydrogenated fullerenes. Below is a few quotes I found in a publication titled, "Hydrogen-induced disintegration of fullerenes and nanotubes (http://www.pa.msu.edu/cmp/csc/eprint/DT200.pdf)", which I previously posted in this thread in reply #1078 (http://www.overunity.com/11404/first-free-energy-device-reaches-market-in-october-the-game-changer-is-here/msg320004/#msg320004). Also, I'm attaching a schematic for the hydrogenation of fullerenes with a RF Generator using Ni/Al
2O
3.
Gravock
Quote from: Page 2Calculations at higher coverages suggest that after the first two atoms are adsorbed, additional hydrogens should preferentially adsorb along straight lines on the substrate. We believe that formation of this energetically preferred adsorption pattern can be achieved by surface diffusion of hydrogen atoms at temperatures found during many hydrogenation reactions since the activation barrier for sigmatropic rearrangement of chemisorbed hydrogen atoms is only ~1 eV. Even though there are no preferential adsorption sites on a carbon nanotube, atomic hydrogen is believed to adsorb preferentially along lines parallel to the axis of the outermost tube to release stress.
Quote from: Page 2Molecular hydrogen does not dissociate on planar graphene, but does so with an energy gain on fullerenes, with the dissociated hydrogen pair preferentially binding on top of adjacent carbon atoms.
Quote from: Page 3We found that the energy needed to break one bond is larger than the energy to break two adjacent bonds, shown in a dark color in the left panel of Fig. 2(c). Continuing this concerted bond breaking mechanism should cleave the edge, causing the structure to disintegrate
Quote from: Page 3Consequently, the calculated transition paths for the disintegration of hydrogenated fullerenes and nanotubes represent the optimum cleavage path in unconstrained systems. Following an initial energy investment of 1.7 eV, the bonds break abruptly, leading to the final structure depicted in the right panel of Fig. 2(c). There is a net energy gainof ~2 eV associated with the bond breaking , caused by releasing the accumulated stress.
Quote from: Page 3-4Our results indicate that the energy barrier to propagate the fracture decreases at successive steps. As a matter of fact, it may be reasonable to assume that the energy released following the initial step may activate the zipperlike cleavage at the crease without further energy investment. Once cleavage is initiated, the unzipping process transforms the stressed crease into two overlapping graphene edges in an exothermic reaction.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
Sounds like a manifesto! lol You and Che, eh?
I can't see it panning out like you do assuming the miracle of getting energy from nickel and hydrogen comes true.
The oil industry will shrink considerably and we will have cheap gas for our cars and we won't have to worry about "destroying the world" when we go for a Sunday drive. But the industry will definitely not become extinct. There are many niches where it fits.
Mainstream media will not go away. You have to remember that not everybody thinks like you!
The fantasy really does promise for a bright future, we have unlimited amounts of hydrogen and nickel at our disposal. You just have to try to read between the lines. Let's cross our fingers, we desperately need a "shift to the real" if any of this is in fact true.
Chances are that the same power companies that supply electricity to the grid will be the ones that supply electricity to the grid using LENR technology. They are not simply going to roll over and play dead.
Almost nobody is going to want to have some kind of "reactor," nuclear or otherwise, in their basement. Try to take yourself out of your bubble for a second. The infrastructure to deliver power to their household is already in place, it's just a question of retrofitting new technology into the existing power plant infrastructure.
MileHigh
MileHigh:
It looks like your thinking a bit about the real possibility of a changing world!
I think in the end, gas vehicles will not be competitive with fusion powered vehicles running for six months on $10 worth of fuel. I was thinking that with a heat source of 1100F, one could even build sterling engines or even jet turbines for modern aircraft that will be able to fly around the world several times without refueling.
The E-CAT is simply the proof of operation and once all doubt is extinguished after it's public release, everyone will jump on all the budding opportunities to design something that improves on the old hydrocarbon fuel devices along with devices never seen before.
You are probably right thinking that almost no one will want a "reactor" in their basement in thinking that the reactor would be unreliable or dangerous, but soon, technology will add heat to electrical conversion devices "Peltier" or even run the reaction as a battery in itself to directly produce electrical current and have a very safe device that one could set outside like the air conditioner and power your home.
Then if this is not enough, in a very short time "like right now" when they realize that is transmutation of elements, someone is going to read the same article I read on how to convert Mercury to Gold and soon Gold will be worthless! cool huh?
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
Sounds like a manifesto!
No, that would be the Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. I advocate peace, not explosive mail.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
The oil industry will shrink considerably and we will have cheap gas for our cars and we won't have to worry about "destroying the world" when we go for a Sunday drive. But the industry will definitely not become extinct. There are many niches where it fits.
Initially the oil industry will shrink. After all, plastics, rubbers, lubricants, etc. all come from the petroleum industry thus many products (other than fuel) are made of crude oil and are used by various industries.
But with new technology also comes new standards. Exxon/Mobil will be praying that they will still be able to meet the new stricter pollution standards 10 or so years from now. Otherwise, all their refineries will need to be shut down like the old steel mills were.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
Mainstream media will not go away. You have to remember that not everybody thinks like you!
I do believe that the tables will be turned. They will become less powerful and dominant until the internet media news sites become home to the majority of mainstream society. We shall see said the zen master.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
Chances are that the same power companies that supply electricity to the grid will be the ones that supply electricity to the grid using LENR technology. They are not simply going to roll over and play dead.
Oh this goes without saying. But how long can they survive until people finally get to the best LENR devices (5 years from now) which are able to run Stirling engines safely? The more people that unplug from the grid, the less need for a grid there will be. This technology runs circles around solar and wind power giving humans their first REAL shot at energy independence off the grid.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 22, 2012, 11:01:45 PM
The fantasy really does promise for a bright future, we have unlimited amounts of hydrogen and nickel at our disposal. You just have to try to read between the lines. Let's cross our fingers, we desperately need a "shift to the real" if any of this is in fact true.
Now on a personal note; what in the hell gives? I detect a slightly more optimistic tone from you here.
Regards,
Chess
I wonder how Blacklight Power announcments will effect E-cat.
http://www.american-reporter.com/4,468/1.html (http://www.american-reporter.com/4,468/1.html)
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/electricity-generated-from-water-blacklight-power-announces-validation-of-its-scientific-breakthrough-in-energy-production-2012-05-22 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/electricity-generated-from-water-blacklight-power-announces-validation-of-its-scientific-breakthrough-in-energy-production-2012-05-22)
http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/ (http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/)
There are of course many businesses working on bringing a LENR to market. Also a number of other technologies that hopefully will see the light of day soon. The great thing is that it does not matter who is first because there will be room for everyone. The potential market is larger than any previous market in world history. Competition is wonderful, because it will bring down prices , and concentrate the minds of those who think that there is no hurry. A win-win situation. Also the wider range of OU technologies available, the less overwhelming demand for specific raw materials.
maw2432,
I totally agree with neptune, diversity will just speed up the adjustment into the new global situation,
helping us to get rid off the annoying grip of the conservative powers that control the market.
We are today standing at the threshold of a renaissance era of a magnitude unparallelled in known human history.
The changes ahead are going to be far more groundbraking than a mere elevation of energy efficiency and its related changes in society.
Our very basic concepts of matter,time and energy will be revised to an extent that will change our very outlook on reality.
2012 actually seems to be the very starting point of new times that the Mayan Calender indicated.
But everything will take time, especially in a world with an conservative over weight like ours.
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light,
but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
Max Planck
Let's hope the imminent need for a global change will quicken the transition a bit.
Gwandau
Quote from: neptune on May 24, 2012, 08:15:21 AM
There are of course many businesses working on bringing a LENR to market. Also a number of other technologies that hopefully will see the light of day soon. The great thing is that it does not matter who is first because there will be room for everyone. The potential market is larger than any previous market in world history. Competition is wonderful, because it will bring down prices , and concentrate the minds of those who think that there is no hurry. A win-win situation. Also the wider range of OU technologies available, the less overwhelming demand for specific raw materials.
@neptune:
I also agree with you as this new technology changes everything.
Quote from: Gwandau
Let's hope the imminent need for a global change will quicken the transition a bit.
@Gwandau:
Yes, change is a much needed thing at this juncture. Part of this change needs to be in the form of a credible media that will not withhold information pertinent to the good of all humanity. And not just what they are withholding, but also topics that they refuse to address or even discuss.
Best Regards,
Chess
Hi Chess,
Quote from: chessnyt on May 24, 2012, 11:54:47 PM
Gwandau:
Yes, change is a much needed thing at this juncture. Part of this change needs to be in the form of a credible media that will not withhold information pertinent to the good of all humanity. And not just what they are withholding, but also topics that they refuse to address or even discuss
I saw your comments on the media blockade - in an earlier post. It's an exceptionally good point. They'll CERTAINLY be left with a mouth full of teeth when they're asked why this wasn't covered before. And IF this improves the general reliance on our internet news coverage then so much the better.
And Gwandau - as ever, you are most eloquent in your vision. I am ENTIRELY seduced by it. And I absolutely agree that this heralds a major social, intellectual, scientific and even evolutionary paradigm shift. We will NEVER be the same. It's a really good thing. It strikes me that the promise is now tangible. We will NOT have to slave for monopolists - whatever their brand. And without that obligation we'll also have some more leisure time. It's in our use of leisure time that our science and our arts are progressed. And we most certainly need to progress.
Kindest regards guys. It seems that I now get email notification on this thread which has been stopped on another thread. Presumably this is more of that editorial bias. Most amusing. But delighted at this new concession. And surprised that I've not been entirely locked out... YET. Until then I'm always pleased to read the contributions here. It keeps one feeling upbeat about our future.
Rosemary
Quote from: maw2432 on May 24, 2012, 05:56:06 AM
I wonder how Blacklight Power announcments will effect E-cat.
http://www.american-reporter.com/4,468/1.html (http://www.american-reporter.com/4,468/1.html)
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/electricity-generated-from-water-blacklight-power-announces-validation-of-its-scientific-breakthrough-in-energy-production-2012-05-22 (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/electricity-generated-from-water-blacklight-power-announces-validation-of-its-scientific-breakthrough-in-energy-production-2012-05-22)
http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/ (http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/)
@maw2432:
As has already been mentioned, competition can only lead to reduced pricing and a non-monopolized energy industry which prevents us (the world's general public) from EVER being gouged again.
I have the feeling that we are only beginning to see the start of new energy companies jockeying for position due to the recent aggressive advances in the market place. Everybody wants a piece of the action. It'll soon develop into a frenzy. Cutting edge technology companies that thought they had all the time in the world to make their move all realize now that this is no longer true.
Cheers,
Chess
More about LENR from NASA:
http://futureinnovation.larc.nasa.gov/view/articles/futurism/bushnell/low-energy-nuclear-reactions.html (http://futureinnovation.larc.nasa.gov/view/articles/futurism/bushnell/low-energy-nuclear-reactions.html)
Omega_0 brought this to my attention in the The BlackLight thread:
http://www.overunity.com/12383/blacklight-power-hydrino-tech-validated-by-6-independent-and-reputed-entities/msg324040/#msg324040 (http://www.overunity.com/12383/blacklight-power-hydrino-tech-validated-by-6-independent-and-reputed-entities/msg324040/#msg324040)
Gwandau
@Everyone:
More details are emerging in which Rossi is revealing more than just the new 600°C milestone. Below he states some interesting new improvements in response to a random question he was asked:
Carlo Salvi
May 21st, 2012 at 12:59 PM
Dear Mr Rossi
About the new 600° celsius e-cat:
1)Does it start with the same time of the the “first†ecat or is it more faster to began to work ?
2)Does it uses the same quantity of Ni/H ?
3)Do you think it still can work for 6 month with one recharge or the new version “burns†NI/H faster ?
4)Are the “ashes†still composed with 30% copper or something’s changed ?
5)Do you think this new product will require a different certification from the “old†version ?
6) when the new product will be released, this will replace the first version or do you think you’ll sell both products ?
Thank you very much, and good luck Mr Rossi.
Carlo Salvi
Andrea Rossi
May 22nd, 2012 at 2:22 AM
Dear Carlo Salvi:
1- faster
2- less
3- yes
4- changed
5- yes
6- no: they have different purposes.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Enjoy,
Chess
@Everyone:
Some additional bad news to report for the scam propagandists here. Rossi states today that he does not want to become a government funded parasite. Again he reafirms that he will not be excepting government or public funding as he states "My opinion is that a technology that works can find funding from the market, while a technology that does not work is a waste of public money if it is funded."
Here's the full quotation:
Andrea Rossi
May 26th, 2012 at 5:53 AM
Dear Piero:
We do not need any funding from political institutions, and we want not to have any public funding. My opinion is that a technology that works can find funding from the market, while a technology that does not work is a waste of public money if it is funded. All I need from the political environment is to be allowed to work in peace. We are able to make by ourselves the money necessary to our development: the People votes with the money for the products that are useful.
In any case I want to thank publicly the Sen. Scilipoti, whom I do not know personally, because he repeatedly tried to help us, and this is important for me to understand that part of the Sovereign People wants to help us working. This is important in order to decide where to work now and in future. I want not money to make work: I want to work to make the money necessary to develope this technology making real, useful and safe products, not theoretical chatters. This is all I ask.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
QuoteI want to work to make the money necessary to develope this technology making real, useful and safe products
Rossi is basically stating that he is taking private investment money to advance his project. I seem to recall you vehemently denying this.
Here is my request: Instead of quotes from Rossi that are non-technical and mostly anecdotal, can you find a spec sheet for any flavour of E-Cat? It can be a preliminary spec sheet.
For example, how about some details on the 600C steam? How much are they producing? Is it with an industrial E-Cat prototype? What are the specs? Have they crunched the numbers to indicate how much electrical power it can output? Have they selected a turbine and a generator? To produce 10 kW of electricity I believe they need to produce about 20 kW of superheated steam. You also have to get rid of 10 kW of excess heat.
I realize that this data might not be available right now, but it seems to me it should be available soon.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 26, 2012, 05:07:47 PM
Chess:
Rossi is basically stating that he is taking private investment money to advance his project. I seem to recall you vehemently denying this.
Here is my request: Instead of quotes from Rossi that are non-technical and mostly anecdotal, can you find a spec sheet for any flavour of E-Cat? It can be a preliminary spec sheet.
...
.....
I realize that this data might not be available right now, but it seems to me it should be available soon.
MileHigh
Hyperion Specs Sheet, November 2011 (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/HyperionSpecsSheetNovember2011.pdf)
Gravock
Gravityblock:
Thanks for the link. That makes the Defkalion system look much more tangible. You can see how it heats up oil and it's up to the customer to run the oil through a heat exchanger and then do what they want with the heat. Like keep chickens warm in chicken factories.
My impression is that's a multi-reactor paper design right now, which is not an issue assuming that they have a single reactor working.
I wonder if Rossi has something similar.
Looking forward to the July demo!
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 26, 2012, 05:07:47 PM
Chess:
Rossi is basically stating that he is taking private investment money to advance his project. I seem to recall you vehemently denying this.
@MileHigh:
Once again, your recollections are misleading and dis-informative at best. To set the record straight, below is the direct quote from Rossi that I posted in this thread back on February 9, 2012, 02:10:29 AM (Reply #597 on Page 40):
Sterling Allen: Totally different question. I get inquiries from time to time about investment. I know there are people out there interested in investing in your company. What ranges of dollar amounts will you consider for investment? Anything above "X" dollars, for example.
Andrea Rossi: You know the issue is of a philosophic kind, because we are not yet... Our company before we will have millions of E-Cat units in operation, our company will be a sort of a warship. And as I usually say, I want not to play football with the bones of the others. So we cannot, we want not to accept money from people that have saved money working, and they want to invest their money to give, how can I say, safety to their family. We want not that. We do not want the savings of families in our enterprise now. Our enterprise is still risky, for many reasons. So we can accept investments from big organizations, that can invest a small amount... Some hedge funds of their finances, and can risk it, in a way that if something goes wrong, no body is going to cry. And no body is going to be damaged, really. Do you understand?While we're on the subject of setting the record straight, let us clear up a little more disinformation, shall we?
Quote from: MileHigh
1MW is a negligible amount of power for an electric utility so you are not making any sense.
...and
Quote from: MileHigh
One megawatt is a drop in the bucket for an electrical utility.
Regarding size limitations of E-Cat power plants I posted the following (Reply #925 on April 7, 2012, 06:24:48 AM):
Oilprice.com: It almost seems as if you’re downplaying the role that LENR could play in providing cheap abundant energy for the world, by only developing relatively small units. Do you not believe that your LENR machine could truly solve a lot of the world’s energy problems? Do you plan to build much larger units of 10s-100s of megawatts, or is that not possible?
Andrea Rossi: We are already developing 1 MW plants, and it will be easy to link these plants together to make larger power plants. Due to the compact scale, and efficient energy production process, an E-Cat power plant will be much smaller than its fossil fuel or nuclear equivalent.
Oilprice.com: You mentioned linking 1MW plants together to make larger power plants. How would this work? What would the cost be?
Andrea Rossi: The 1MW units can be assembled at a reduced size of 10ft x 8ft x 8ft, and can then be stacked in series or parallel to produce the necessary power. It will cost 1,000 $/KW.Setting the record straight again ::)
Chess
Chess:
My interpretation of the Rossi quote is that he has private investment. So you can feel free to agree or disagree with me. He is not a wealthy man from what we are led to believe, so he has to be getting money from somewhere, don't you think?
For the whole power plant issue, as far as I am concerned Rossi is the one that is not credible, or if you want to ratchet up the rhetoric, he is spreading disinformation.
QuoteAndrea Rossi: We are already developing 1 MW plants, and it will be easy to link these plants together to make larger power plants. Due to the compact scale, and efficient energy production process, an E-Cat power plant will be much smaller than its fossil fuel or nuclear equivalent.
That sounds like a person that is just winging it and making up an answer on the spot. He thinks he needs to have an answer for everything because his perception is that will bolster his credibility.
QuoteAndrea Rossi: The 1MW units can be assembled at a reduced size of 10ft x 8ft x 8ft, and can then be stacked in series or parallel to produce the necessary power. It will cost 1,000 $/KW.
So what are we looking at here? 2000 10ft x 8ft x 8 ft power cubes and all of the wiring and piping to support it. 2000 pumps to maintain, 2000 circuit breakers, blah blah blah.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
What makes sense is if the LENR technology is proven to work is to make commercial-sized reactors just like you have giant boilers or giant turbines to produce commercial power. The power companies can license the technology from Rossi and then invest the massive amounts of money needed to develop power plants in the 2000 MW and larger class.
Stop playing your "disinformation" card all the time. One megawatt is a drop in the bucket with respect to commercial power production and "throwing 2000 Rossi boxes at the problem" does not sound like a viable solution to me in any way, shape, or form.
Rossi is only human and his words can be debated.
MileHigh
Title of this thread was made for a reason- OCTOBER, but no year mentioned.....
Regards,
pix
MileHigh,
allow me to adress you again, since you seem to have regained a reasonable attitude towards your fellow OU-members in this thread.
I don't know if I'm right, but I have a feeling your reason for suspicion is due to the very specific situation Andrea Rossi have placed himself in.
First of all, we have to keep in mind that Rossi is just a simple engineer who finally hit gold in his many years of experimenting in the wake of Fleischman and Pons.
He has a history of being subjected to great injustice effected by his former enemies, some of them at that time even part of the Italian government,
which makes him extremely cautious, especially after being "run over" once again, this time by Defkalion, who he believed to be thrustworthy companions.
Thus he won't give away any clues whatsoever that might disclose his E-cat concept, which still today probably makes him the only person in the Leonardo Corp. who know the whole secret behind the E-cat.
Because of this choice of his, he does not have the scientific effectiveness of any real advanced physiscists to aid him on the product development, which makes any progress quite impossible of the scale and magnitude you are suggesting as being the only feasable alternative for a innovation like this.
This is a deliberate choice by Andrea Rossi, who certainly know he is going to be outrun by the giants shortly after his product becomes available on the market.
He has himself said that after entering the open market with the E-cats, the competitors will be just as easy to avoid as trying to stay dry with an umbrella in the Niagara Falls.
He wants his fair share of this but not at the price of being part of the conservative powers that just want to incorporate this innovation into their existing power structure.
Believe it or not, but Andrea Rossi is an emphatic being who cares a lot for the simple working class heroes. He has friends here in Sweden, and I mean real friends who know him well.
I know his course of actions will inflict suspicions in the minds of many, but he has as I explained above a resaon for keeping the scale within the 10KW E-cat, since this is the only way he know how to technically handle this innovation.
Just wait till the E-cat enters the market. Then you will soon have all those big scale LENR systems you are talking about, replacing the nuclear heaters at the power plants and so on, and some well funded scientific team will patent the very LENR process behind it that Andrea Rossi never was able to nail into exact nuclear physics concepts.
Then Andrea Rossi will finally get thrown out of business and some nuclear scientist with high academic credenials will publish his report and get the Nobel price.
I understand the choice taken by Andrea Rossi, but I don't share it. If I was in his position, I would have gone open source, just like the aim of this forum.
This world is a sorrowful place with nasty guys at the top making the rules, securing the old power structure so money keeps flowing upwards and the masses are kept conditioned.
Gwandau
Quote from: MileHigh on May 27, 2012, 01:04:43 AM
Chess:
My interpretation of the Rossi quote is that he has private investment.
"We do not want the savings of families in our enterprise now. Our enterprise is still risky, for many reasons. So we can accept investments from big organizations, that can invest a small amount... Some hedge funds of their finances, and can risk it, in a way that if something goes wrong, no body is going to cry. And no body is going to be damaged, really. Do you understand?"Rossi clearly states that it is indeed PRIVATE FUNDS but not from individuals such as you and I. He is accepting HEDGE FUNDS and you should google search this for yourself so you know what they are. I have not the time nor space to take you to school again so educate yourself as to what HEDGE FUNDS are.
Aside from not taking investments from the likes of you nor I, he is not accepting ANY funding from his own government or the U.S. (like the hot fusion researchers do) because he already has a useful product that people will buy and fund him through the purchase of his products, but I think you already knew this but you had to save face for the false innuendos.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 27, 2012, 01:04:43 AM
He is not a wealthy man from what we are led to believe, so he has to be getting money from somewhere, don't you think?
He has already sold and delivered one 1mw unit and several others are under construction. In addition, he has the hedge funds from large organizations to add to that. He's certainly not poor like you are pretending he is here.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 27, 2012, 01:04:43 AM
For the whole power plant issue, as far as I am concerned Rossi is the one that is not credible, or if you want to ratchet up the rhetoric, he is spreading disinformation.
I've already caught you in several huge lies already so it is you who have the credibility problem here. And if anybody wants to see these lies to judge for themselves, they can read this thread and view all of them in their entirety. I doubt that this will be necessary because I think it is already clear to the majority here who you are and what your purpose of being here is.
Andrea Rossi: We are already developing 1 MW plants, and it will be easy to link these plants together to make larger power plants. Due to the compact scale, and efficient energy production process, an E-Cat power plant will be much smaller than its fossil fuel or nuclear equivalent.Andrea Rossi: The 1MW units can be assembled at a reduced size of 10ft x 8ft x 8ft, and can then be stacked in series or parallel to produce the necessary power. It will cost 1,000 $/KW.Quote from: MileHigh on May 27, 2012, 01:04:43 AM
So what are we looking at here? 2000 10ft x 8ft x 8 ft power cubes and all of the wiring and piping to support it. 2000 pumps to maintain, 2000 circuit breakers, blah blah blah.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
It makes perfect sense. He has already made small home units and he has already made large 1mw industrial sized units so it stands to reason that Rossi has no problem scaling up his technology from small to large units. He will be selling the larger units at $1,000 dollars per KW. This also makes sense so that the larger the unit, the higher the cost.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 27, 2012, 01:04:43 AM
Rossi is only human and his words can be debated.
MileHigh
Don't forget that you are only human too and you will be debated and exposed.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 27, 2012, 01:04:43 AM
Stop playing your "disinformation" card all the time. One megawatt is a drop in the bucket with respect to commercial power production and "throwing 2000 Rossi boxes at the problem" does not sound like a viable solution to me in any way, shape, or form.
It's not a card. It's a pattern and everyone here can verify it for themselves by reading your past postings in this thread. The truth is way more fun and powerful.
Chess
Chess:
Your posting is almost comical. Exposed as what? A Double-Naught spy? lol
Making a power plant out of 2000 E-Cats stacked like some kind of Lego block set does not make any sense at all. If you could just use your imagination you should be able to see that.
QuoteRossi clearly states that it is indeed PRIVATE FUNDS but not from individuals such as you and I. He is accepting HEDGE FUNDS and you should google search this for yourself so you know what they are. I have not the time nor space to take you to school again so educate yourself as to what HEDGE FUNDS are.
When you talk like that you make an ass of yourself.
Just come down to Earth and speak like a normal human being. :)
MileHigh
Hello MilesLowerThanLow
Quote from: MileHigh on May 28, 2012, 12:53:03 AM
Chess:
Your posting is almost comical. Exposed as what? A Double-Naught spy? lol
We would all of us need to be as dim witted as you seem to assume - if you think your heavy handed propagandising carries any kind of credibility.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 28, 2012, 12:53:03 AMMaking a power plant out of 2000 E-Cats stacked like some kind of Lego block set does not make any sense at all. If you could just use your imagination you should be able to see that.
Indeed. Better to put them side by side. Stacked and there could be required and expensive reinforcing structures. I'm not sure that anyone other than you ever even thought to stack them. How ridiculous.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 28, 2012, 12:53:03 AMWhen you talk like that you make an ass of yourself.
I am reasonably satisfied that the only person here who is consistently and dependably asinine is yourself.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 28, 2012, 12:53:03 AMJust come down to Earth and speak like a normal human being.
If you think that your posts or even your opinion represent normalcy MilesOutInOrbit - then you're also Miles Out of Touch.
Rosie Pose
Rosemary,
That was a gratuitous zero-content posting with nothing to say.
QuoteI'm not sure that anyone other than you ever even thought to stack them. How ridiculous.
Take a look a few postings back, Rossi is the one suggesting stacking them. However, I agree with you anyway, it is ridiculous.
For Chess, I also forgot this:
QuoteHe has already made small home units
No he hasn't done that as far as I am aware. Nobody has seen a preliminary spec sheet or a prototype of a home unit and if I am wrong then anybody feel free to correct me. The 3D CAD model doesn't count.
You are putting the cart before the horse in your Rossi zeal.
I am still waiting for independent testing to confirm that Rossi and Defkalion have the goods.
MileHigh
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 28, 2012, 01:27:33 AM
Hello MilesLowerThanLowWe would all of us need to be as dim witted as you seem to assume - if you think your heavy handed propagandising carries any kind of credibility.
@Rosemary:
Yes, even the weakest of minds could not fall for his obvious propaganda campaign ;D In fact, I believe that his propaganda is now having a reverse effect which is actually lending even more credence to LENR technology as well as Andrea Rossi and his E-Cat. At this point, he's doing a superb job in assisting us ;)
@Everyone:
Here's the latest news on the E-Cat:
Andrea RossiMay 24th, 2012 at 5:10 PMDear Giovanni Guerrini:Here is a new: our 600 celsius plant is continuing to work very well and stable.We are close to a very important target.Warm Regards,A.R.Andrea RossiMay 28th, 2012 at 4:27 AMDear Steven Karels:COP 6 is the highest possible.Warm Regards,A.R.A COP of 6 is very impressive. Also, Rossi is achieving higher temperatures with less fuel (nickel and hydrogen) so there are some notable refinements happening simultaneously.
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
I am just an ordinary person and it's comical that you can't accept that. The proposition has always been interesting specifically because they are not claiming any free energy.
Rossi needs to add some substance beyond claiming that he has produced steam at 600C. It's just a waiting game.
Certainly there are many technical issues that I have raised and you have ignored many of them. So you are "flying" with just claims and you refuse to engage me on the technical issues, even if it is just to venture your opinion.
The vast complexity required to manage 2000 separate industrial E-Cats would be cost-prohibitive. It's a low tech brute force way of upping the power output. A larger reactor with a larger core and larger EM generators and all that entails would be less costly in the long run. The engineering expertise for developing other types of commercial power plants is a natural fit for this technology, presuming that it is indeed verified.
Defkalion has at least shown how they circulate oil to do the primary heat extraction from the reactor core in their preliminary spec sheet and that you need to run the hot oil through a heat exchanger. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think we have many details from Rossi about stuff like this.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 27, 2012, 01:04:43 AM
That sounds like a person that is just winging it and making up an answer on the spot. He thinks he needs to have an answer for everything because his perception is that will bolster his credibility.
::) there you go with mile high megalomania again... how is it you know what rossi is thinking? and how is it you know what his perceptions are?
stop playing your 'i know what everyone is thinking and what their perceptions are' megalomaniac card. we get it that you don't like rossi... we all have read your assumptions, speculations and conjectures and anyone new to the thread will read them too. you don't have to spam your unsubstantiated assumptions and conjecture every time someone posts some news... ::)
Wil-beast,
Sure, just pretend that you don't understand English in your eternal quest to make other people unhappy and intimidate them for your own perverse gratification.
"Bad vibes all the time" Wilby - Making you unhappy makes him happy.
So no surprise that you are stooping so low as to look like a cretin that is unable to draw a distinction between "sounds like" and "is."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfggccwQrcY
MileHigh
@ chessnyt,
It seems most of the information about Andrea Rossi is and his e-cat
"Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" ( LENR ) device is available on the internet. There are those questions still outstanding that have not been "directly" answered by A Rossi himself. Most that are researching appear to find in searching are some "shills" or decoy's who act as an enthusiastic consumers in order to stimulate the participation of others, with no real information that's verifiably credible. Here is just one of my unanswered questions regarding the e-cat technology.
I see there was a generous verifiable offer of
$ 1,000,000 (USD) from an Australian businessman
"Dick Smith" found in this article ....
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/14/smith-offers-1-million-prize-for-successful-e-cat-demo/
Mr Smith only asked for a few qualifications as shown in the attached ( PDF ) ::)
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Solihin-Millin/SmithOffer.pdf
Quote
My offer is very simple, which I will restate: I ask you to repeat the March 29, 2011 demonstration purported to show that your E-CAT unit had an output power of many times the input power through LENR (low energy nuclear reactions).
As the sole judges as to whether this can be repeated correctly, I suggest we use the two Swedish scientists, Kullander and Essen, as they attended the March 2011 demonstration and wrote a report. I would be happy to cover any reasonable cost of having them flying to Italy to attend the repeat of the demonstration.
The offer was only good until close of business on Monday 20 February 2012 and I haven't been able to find any information that's verifiably credible on what happened with the contract proposal. I would assume after reading the letter ( attached PDF ) that a demonstration on the claimed results previously done with only doing a repeat for $ 1,000,000 ( USD ) would be a no brainer and a
FREE "million bucks". ???
Is there anything stated here that can be added too that the "open source community" is not aware of ? ???
FTC
;)
Just some doggerel for your amusement - possibly still 'on topic'?
A man with his head in an upper domain
Was compelled to exist in the incessant rain
From a cloud in the sky
At least a Mile High
Which eventually melted his brain.
Rosemary
My dear FTC
I would have thought that IF Dick Smith wanted to advance the real evidence of energy efficiencies his M1$ (Australian?) would be better spent on a plane trip to NASA to interview their cold fusion or LENR claimants.
When anyone offers a prize they reserve the right to adjudicate those awards. Which would put any claim by Rossi or anyone else - AT RISK rather than otherwise - should they bother to claim that award.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 28, 2012, 09:01:46 PM
Just some doggerel for your amusement - possibly still 'on topic'?
A man with his head in an upper domain
Was compelled to exist in the incessant rain
From a cloud in the sky
At least a Mile High
Which eventually melted his brain.
Rosemary
And in conclusion...
And that man with his head in that lofty domain
Who lived rather 'damp' from way too much rain
From that cloud in the sky
At least a Mile High
Had his feet off the ground so the rain couldn't drain
But again that same man in that distant domain
Whose intellect suffered from torrential rain
From the cloud in the sky
Up there a Mile High
Thankfully never experienced pain
Rosemary
Loner:
Your comments are very interesting but I have some points for you to consider.
Let's assume that the reactor works and we have a new and essentially unlimited supply of energy. In a lot of the developed world the power distribution infrastructure is already in place. So that's where you can envision large power plants being retrofitted or new plants being built from scratch.
In the undeveloped world there is a very good chance that new power distribution will be decentralized with different sized power plants to meet local demand. The market will determine what is the best fit. For example, suppose you develop a new housing subdivision with 1000 houses. Perhaps a new power plant built scaled to the size of the subdivision located within the subdivision itself will make economic sense. You could then intelligently manage the heat production and do something useful with it, like provide hot water to the houses using an insulated piping system. That would increase the overall efficiency of the reactor.
I think it's reasonable to assume that a home-sized power plant is possible and some will adopt that technology. But it will take a few generations of E-Cat systems before the technology becomes perfected and ingrained akin to how people view a refrigerator. Don't forget the conventional setup is a reactor, a turbine, a transmission, a generator, and 50% waste heat. That implies every household is radiating heat. It also is a responsibility, to maintain all of this complicated equipment, or to have an outside service do that for you.
So I think that over 10 years the world will change. It's such a huge thing that the change can't happen overnight.
Your discussion about going direct and eliminating the step where you generate electricity is possible, but for only select applications. The way we use electricity is not going to change.
The test is straightforward, meter the electrical power in and measure the flow rate and temperature differential for water that flows through a heat exchanger. Run that test for a month non-stop and you will have a lot of people convinced. There really shouldn't be any way to rig the test setup when you do that or for the test to be ambiguous. That's what I was expecting the first time round.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 28, 2012, 05:06:59 PM
... (snipped the logical fallacies) ... unable to draw a distinction between "sounds like" and "is."
MileHigh
so you meant 'sounds like' and not 'is'... i see. so now you are saying he isn't "just winging it and making up an answer on the spot"... it just sounds like that. ::) interesting contradiction. :)
Hi Chess,
I am now following your good example and putting up some 'E-cat' news. From yesterday... I think.
Here's the link
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-says-e-cat-cop-fixed-at-6/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-says-e-cat-cop-fixed-at-6/)
And here's the summary
But again, a COP of 10 or 20 is not needed. A COP of 6 is very high.
It is high enough to produce all of the world’s electricity.
It is high enough to desalinize ocean water.
It is high enough to provide all of the world’s heating.
It is high enough to be incorporated in vehicles.
Which pretty well resolves our ENTIRE global pollution crisis. It's an interesting article on the e-cat co-efficient of performance. And I think I'm beginning to understand the significance of that heat signature at 600 degrees. It was critical. And then IN CONCLUSION...
It is high enough to end the energy crisis, and end the use of fossil fuels.
Which has got to be a really good thing. And by the way Loner - to the best of my knowledge there's NOTHING about LENR that conforms to the standard model. But I'm open to correction.
Kindest regards
Rosemary
Nice to see this caliber post. Are you 'changing sides'? MileHigh? Or just 'infected' with a rare 'troll' attribute of an 'open' rather than a vacuous mind. Either way. I'm possibly still being absurdly optimistic but there are the occasional glimpses of what seems to be some residual reasonableness. Very nice it is too.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 29, 2012, 12:40:37 AM
Let's assume that the reactor works and we have a new and essentially unlimited supply of energy.
Very comfortable with this observation. Indeed. Let's assume that the reactor works. We've been given expert advice that this is the case. So it's an assumption that has the added merit of being proved - which makes it more FACT than ASSUMPTION. Which is even more comforting.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 29, 2012, 12:40:37 AMIn a lot of the developed world the power distribution infrastructure is already in place. So that's where you can envision large power plants being retrofitted or new plants being built from scratch. In the undeveloped world there is a very good chance that new power distribution will be decentralized with different sized power plants to meet local demand. The market will determine what is the best fit. For example, suppose you develop a new housing subdivision with 1000 houses. Perhaps a new power plant built scaled to the size of the subdivision located within the subdivision itself will make economic sense. You could then intelligently manage the heat production and do something useful with it, like provide hot water to the houses using an insulated piping system. That would increase the overall efficiency of the reactor.
Wouldn't it be more to the point that those houses in that housing development each have their own E-cat? Then there would be no dependency on a central supply. And given the cheapness of each power unit - perhaps that proposal is reasonable. Which is more or less what you argue here...
Quote from: MileHigh on May 29, 2012, 12:40:37 AM
I think it's reasonable to assume that a home-sized power plant is possible and some will adopt that technology. But it will take a few generations of E-Cat systems before the technology becomes perfected and ingrained akin to how people view a refrigerator. Don't forget the conventional setup is a reactor, a turbine, a transmission, a generator, and 50% waste heat. That implies every household is radiating heat. It also is a responsibility, to maintain all of this complicated equipment, or to have an outside service do that for you.
Again. I'm open to correction but I seem to remember that the basic design enables the replacement of a 'disk' type container to replenish the old. Really user friendly if this is the case. But presumably there are other 'maintenance' type tasks that may also need some overview. Hopefully the cost of this would not be too onerous.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 29, 2012, 12:40:37 AMSo I think that over 10 years the world will change. It's such a huge thing that the change can't happen overnight.
I tend to agree with this. But hopefully that 'time' line you've mentioned can be greatly reduced when our media actually engage and tell the world about this new development. Thus far there's still that BEWILDERING reluctance to discuss what is unquestionably the biggest news event that has hit this planet since the the discovery of penicillin. And if we all end up radiating too much heat from our houses - then with all that surplus energy we should be able to cool it down before it's actually released. I hope. Because this is, indeed, a potential problem that most certainly will need our best attention. Thus far the argument is that global heating is the direct result of carbon pollution. What happens when that heating is no longer associated with 'trapped' solar radiation? Can someone? Loner - Chess - answer this? Can we simply emit an excess of radiant energy directly out of the stratosphere? And into space? Surely there's a potential problem here?
Quote from: MileHigh on May 29, 2012, 12:40:37 AMYour discussion about going direct and eliminating the step where you generate electricity is possible, but for only select applications. The way we use electricity is not going to change.
I agree with this. I don't think we're arguing electric energy and it's uses. But as I understand it that 600 degree bench mark was required to run effective generators? Chess? Is that right?
Quote from: MileHigh on May 29, 2012, 12:40:37 AMThe test is straightforward, meter the electrical power in and measure the flow rate and temperature differential for water that flows through a heat exchanger. Run that test for a month non-stop and you will have a lot of people convinced. There really shouldn't be any way to rig the test setup when you do that or for the test to be ambiguous. That's what I was expecting the first time round.
You really need to get your head around this MileHigh. The fact is that these tests have been done under expert scrutiny and measured accordingly. All that's lacking here is our media admission of this. Again, I'm open to correction but I believe that Rossi ran his own factory on this energy for a couple of years before going public on this.
Kindest regards MileHigh - all,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 29, 2012, 08:48:57 PM
Hi Chess,
I am now following your good example and putting up some 'E-cat' news. From yesterday... I think.
Here's the link
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-says-e-cat-cop-fixed-at-6/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-says-e-cat-cop-fixed-at-6/)
@Rosemary:
Thank you Rosemary, for posting some news on this newsworthy topic. That was the basic premise of starting this thread in the news section in the first place. The help is VERY appreciated. I hope that others will continue to contribute their finds as well.
I have grown up around an old philosophy which I believe to this day which is; If you're not part of the solution, then you are automatically part of the problem. I'm glad people like yourself have decided to be a part of the solution. It's impossible to be on both sides as a house divided against itself can not stand.
I love to fix things and I hope even more get involved in some way to usher in this new game changer and assist in making a positive impact on the entire world.
Sincerely,
Chess
Hi Chess,
Quote from: chessnyt on May 29, 2012, 10:57:58 PM
@Rosemary:
Thank you Rosemary, for posting some news on this newsworthy topic. That was the basic premise of starting this thread in the news section in the first place. The help is VERY appreciated. I hope that others will continue to contribute their finds as well.
I have grown up around an old philosophy which I believe to this day which is; If you're not part of the solution, then you are automatically part of the problem. I'm glad people like yourself have decided to be a part of the solution. It's impossible to be on both sides as a house divided against itself can not stand.
I love to fix things and I hope even more get involved in some way to usher in this new game changer and assist in making a positive impact on the entire world.
What's really needed is a platform that is not subject to the editorial bias that tends to pollute these kinds of interests. But the nice thing here is that the most of us are standing firm behind Rossi and that has the real merit of being upbeat. And we're all part of the solution. But you, Chess - are more so than most. I'm only doing by bit to emulate your efforts. I think the saying is that 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'? Something like that.
Take good care Chess. I'll be sending you some topical links towards the end of this week. Can't wait.
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 28, 2012, 09:08:36 PM
My dear FTC
I would have thought that IF Dick Smith wanted to advance the real evidence of energy efficiencies his M1$ (Australian?) would be better spent on a plane trip to NASA to interview their cold fusion or LENR claimants.
When anyone offers a prize they reserve the right to adjudicate those awards. Which would put any claim by Rossi or anyone else - AT RISK rather than otherwise - should they bother to claim that award.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
I see there is some misunderstanding here about my beliefs that LENR can work and has potential as a energy supply. ::)
The posting of mine was directed at chessnyt, but the misconception or inability to download the PDF I referenced, that NASA would have all the answers on "ROSSI" and specifically his e-cat
"Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" ( LENR ) device with the blustery and verifiable offer of
$ 1,000,000 (USD) from an Australian businessman
"Dick Smith" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Smith_%28entrepreneur%29 found in this article ....
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/14/smith-offers-1-million-prize-for-successful-e-cat-demo/
As all can see this is after being approached in behalf of Andrea Rossi by Mr Sol Millin of the Byron New Energy Trust, and Mr Smith only asked for a few qualifications as shown in the attached PDF.
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/Solihin-Millin/SmithOffer.pdf (
shown for complete clarity )
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
QUOTE -From: Margot Egan [on behalf of Dick Smith]
Sent: Tuesday, 14 February 2012 12:51 PM
To: Andrea Rossi Re. E-CAT
Subject: from Dick Smith in Australia Re. U.S. One Million Dollars for Successful Re-Testing of E-CAT
To: Andrea Rossi
From: Dick Smith
Dear Mr Rossi
Re: USD1,000,000 for Successful Repeat of E-CAT DemonstrationDick Smith is my name. I am writing to you from Sydney, Australia. Possibly the best information in relation to my background is on Wikipedia â€" see HERE.
Some time ago I was contacted by Mr Sol Millin of the Byron New Energy Trust. Mr Millin has had extensive communication with you. Mr Millin communicated the advantages of your ECAT unit in relation to energy and how it had the potential to solve the world’s energy problems. Mr Millin said that he had your authority to act on your behalf in relation to an agreement for the Australian “rights†to your invention.
After some discussion, I agreed that I would invest AUD200,000 provided that evidence could be shown that the unit actually worked as claimed.
There has been a lot of to’ing-and-fro’ing since then, with Mr Millin claiming that he has provided me with the evidence and with my insistence that this is not the case.
At one stage Mr Millin even sent me an email (attached) threatening to sue me for one-hundred-million-dollars if I did not proceed with sending him my AUD200,000.
As Mr Millin and I do not seem to be getting anywhere on this issue, I have determined a way that we could possibly break this nexus, i.e. I would like to offer you USD1,000,000 for a successful repeat of the March 29, 2011 demonstration.
One million US dollars will be made out to you as a Bank cheque or will be held in an escrow account if you desire. I do not want to know how the unit operates, nor to have a share in the profits from any sales. My satisfaction will come from knowing that if the unit is successful, then some of the world’s greatest problems â€" especially in relation to climate change â€" will be solved.
I point out that over the last few decades my wife and I have donated many millions of dollars to scientific research, much of it without any immediate results. We have not complained about this.
My offer is very simple, which I will restate: I ask you to repeat the March 29, 2011 demonstration purported to show that your E-CAT unit had an output power of many times the input power through LENR (low energy nuclear reactions).
As the sole judges as to whether this can be repeated correctly, I suggest we use the two Swedish scientists, Kullander and Essen, as they attended the March 2011 demonstration and wrote a report. I would be happy to cover any reasonable cost of having them flying to Italy to attend the repeat of the demonstration. They can then check the wires (because, as you know, there have been claims that the wiring may have been misconnected) and also the power output of the unit in relation to both the heated water and the steam.
I would be happy, with Kullander and Essen as the sole judges as to whether the unit has the power output you have claimed, to hand you an irrevocable Bank cheque for USD1,000,000 made out in your name if the demonstration is successfully completed. If Kullander and Essen are not available, I am happy to agree with you on two other individuals of similar expertise to attend the new demonstration as the judges. I am sure we can come to an agreement as to who would be suitable and independent. It would also be necessary to have a third person â€" who you and I can agree on â€" to assist with the type of measuring equipment and its accuracy so there are no doubts that the scientific community will accept the results.
I understand the 29 March 2011 demonstration took place over a period of more than six hours and showed a power multiplication of approximately ten times. To make the demonstration test even fairer, I would be happy if the demonstration to qualify for the assignment of the USD1,000,000 were reduced to a five-hour period and with a power multiplication ratio of at least eight times. This will make it very much easier for you to qualify for the USD1,000,000, As far as I am concerned, eight times’ power multiplication through LENRs will solve the world’s power problems for the future.
Mr Rossi, I believe the advantage of my offer is that you can show the sceptics (I am presently one of them) that the unit actually works as you have claimed. I notice that you have had other investors offering very large amounts of money, and I can understand your concern in relation to this. My offer is USD1,000,000 without any conditions attached at all in relation to where you will spend the money. You can use it for further research â€" perhaps to re-purchase your house or even donate some of the money to charity.
Well, there it is. It’s quite simple. Successfully replicate the demonstration showing the power gain from LENRs of March 29, 2011 with the two Swedish
scientists, Kullander and Essen (or two other individuals we agree on), and USD1,000,000 will be yours.
Also, of course, you will receive attention from around the world and a well-deserved Nobel Laureate. I will consider I have had value for my money as the person who actually proves that your unit works (or doesn’t) â€" an issue which will be resolved for all time.
My offer is open for you to accept until close of business Monday 20 February 2012. I look forward to your reply.
Yours faithfully
Dick Smith
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Again ...... I haven't been able to find any information that's verifiably credible and not second hand or from a shill who publicizes and praises ROSSI's "e-cat" device for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, friendship or loyalty just to name a few. I want to know exactly what happened with this contract proposal from Mr. Don Smith ? ???
I would assume after reading the letter that a demonstration on the claimed results previously done with only doing a repeat, including a reduced time frame of the testing for $ 1,000,000 ( USD ) would be a no brainer and a
FREE "million bucks". ;)
This probably would of paid for the complete Underwriter Laboratory ( UL ) life safety engineering, testing and evaluation ..... for FREE ? ???
I'm I missing something here ? ???
FTC
;)
fuzzytomcat:
The only thing you need to ask yourself is, Why would someone with so much money as Dick Smith want to know for sure if the E-cat is a real working device?
and now you know the answer!
Rosemary:
QuoteNice to see this caliber post. Are you 'changing sides'? MileHigh? Or just 'infected' with a rare 'troll' attribute of an 'open' rather than a vacuous mind. Either way. I'm possibly still being absurdly optimistic but there are the occasional glimpses of what seems to be some residual reasonableness. Very nice it is too.
QuoteWhat's really needed is a platform that is not subject to the editorial bias that tends to pollute these kinds of interests
So it's like you want a form of Apartheid around here. There are the "regular" contributors and there are the "trolls." The trolls are people that have a differing opinion than yours. The trolls are second-class citizens and they should be restricted to "townships," right Rosemary? Trolls "pollute" the environment and "regular" people like you have to "manage" them.
Don't you dare ever call me a troll again. Do you understand me? Don't you dare.
QuoteWouldn't it be more to the point that those houses in that housing development each have their own E-cat? Then there would be no dependency on a central supply. And given the cheapness of each power unit - perhaps that proposal is reasonable.
No and nobody knows what one will cost. Nobody has ever seen one. You have to control your urge to jump to conclusions.
QuoteAnd if we all end up radiating too much heat from our houses - then with all that surplus energy we should be able to cool it down before it's actually released. I hope. Because this is, indeed, a potential problem that most certainly will need our best attention. Thus far the argument is that global heating is the direct result of carbon pollution. What happens when that heating is no longer associated with 'trapped' solar radiation? Can someone? Loner - Chess - answer this? Can we simply emit an excess of radiant energy directly out of the stratosphere? And into space? Surely there's a potential problem here?
You are clearly out of your element and your points above make very little sense or you don't understand the issues. Somebody else can discuss it with you if they want to.
QuoteYou really need to get your head around this MileHigh. The fact is that these tests have been done under expert scrutiny and measured accordingly.
There have been no conclusive tests done. An analogy is the RomeroUK fake magnet motor. Hundreds of people believed it was real without any conclusive proof. It's time to take off the rose coloured glasses and demand hard and verifiable data. Using alleged steam production was one of the worst possible things that Rossi could do and you should do some soul searching about that.
QuoteAgain, I'm open to correction but I believe that Rossi ran his own factory on this energy for a couple of years before going public on this.
I have never heard that before and in the context of what has happened so far I would say that that allegation is laughable nonsense.
MileHigh
fuzzytomcat,
You say it is a no brainer. That suggests that you without doubt believe the sceptic Mr Smith to be a guy with good intentions.
How do we know this?
If testing the Rossi e-cat really would be worth giving away 1 million dollars, why didn't he just buy a 1 MW unit???
It costs one and a half million dollars, and the whole unit would be his to do whatever he wanted with.
That would have solved all his questions. He would have got it delievered to any adress within 4 months, and he could have performed whatever tests he wanted.
And best of all, he could sell the MW unit if it worked, and get money back to use for his other projects.
This whole thing with Mr. Dick Smith smells funny, and I´m sure this is the reason Andrea Rossi has declined involvement in any test projects with this guy.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on May 30, 2012, 03:47:09 PM
fuzzytomcat,
You say it is a no brainer. That suggests that you without doubt believe the sceptic Mr Smith to be a guy with good intentions.
How do we know this?
If testing the Rossi e-cat really would be worth giving away 1 million dollars, why didn't he just buy a 1 MW unit???
It costs one and a half million dollars, and the whole unit would be his to do whatever he wanted with.
That would have solved all his questions. He would have got it delievered to any adress within 4 months, and he could have performed whatever tests he wanted.
And best of all, he could sell the MW unit if it worked, and get money back to use for his other projects.
This whole thing with Mr. Dick Smith smells funny, and I´m sure this is the reason Andrea Rossi has declined involvement in any test projects with this guy.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
Dick Smith is an infamous skeptic and wealthy (eccentric) tycoon. If there's one thing an extremely wealthy man hates more than anything else, it's having been proven wrong publicly.
And so I must agree with you here. After all, Dick Smith would have been left with a tangible piece of equipment in the end. One he could donate to the science museum of his choice to ensure that millions of people could see it for themselves. He could have even turned a profit by setting up a 6 month live demonstration in which he could have sold tickets to. I know I would be willing to pay $1000.00 U.S. dollars cash just to see an E-Cat in operation for just 15 minutes along with all of the chart recorders and professional test equipment hooked up to it.
And as for the matter of Rossi's reasoning in refusing the offer (assuming that the question is legitimately and sincerely being presented here and not for purposes of an indirect attack on Rossi);If Fuzzytomcat really wants to know why Rossi refused, then why in the world is he asking me? Why isn't he asking Rossi?
Regards,
Chess
P.S. Am I missing something here? ::)
Quote from: Gwandau on May 30, 2012, 03:47:09 PM
fuzzytomcat,
You say it is a no brainer. That suggests that you without doubt believe the sceptic Mr Smith to be a guy with good intentions.
How do we know this?
If testing the Rossi e-cat really would be worth giving away 1 million dollars, why didn't he just buy a 1 MW unit???
It costs one and a half million dollars, and the whole unit would be his to do whatever he wanted with.
That would have solved all his questions. He would have got it delievered to any adress within 4 months, and he could have performed whatever tests he wanted.
And best of all, he could sell the MW unit if it worked, and get money back to use for his other projects.
This whole thing with Mr. Dick Smith smells funny, and I´m sure this is the reason Andrea Rossi has declined involvement in any test projects with this guy.
Gwandau
@ Gwandau,
Your correct in your assumption that I do believe that Mr Don Smith has made a "public and verifiable" good will intention to have the ROSSI e-cat device tested as indicated in the letter that was posted.
My understanding of the letter context when reading it is if the device works as advertized, with the same testing done for a "successful" repeat of the March 29, 2011 demonstration, ROSSI gets a
BLUSTERY FREE "one million BUCKS (USD)" ;)
The idea of spending what ever the cost for a 1MW e-cat unit "without" the claim results repeated from the March 29, 2011 demonstration, Mr Don Smith may be buying a very expensive "paper weight". I would put this in the same type of venue on purchasing a multi million luxury yacht or home for cash from a magazine, newspaper article or a ten minute YouTube video without you actually physically steping on board or checking out what your getting "first'. ::)
What happens if you purchase the ROSSI e-cat device and doesn't work ..... do you get your money back ? There's a multitude of excuses that can be used by any inventor when it doesn't work just like we see from every other experimental device, from being installed improperly to sun spots and every excuse in between why it doesn't work. ???
Just remember Mr Don Smith was contacted by Mr Sol Millin of the Byron New Energy Trust on behalf of Andrea Rossi in regards to an agreement for the Australian “rights†to ROSSI's invention. ::)
What I think smells funny is 99% of everything we see published on the ROSSI "e-cat" is second hand information from reporters like at http://ecatnews.com/ http://www.ecatnews.net/ http://www.e-catworld.com/ always "quoting" what Andrea Rossi has said ( maybe ) in their, the reporters words. This tactic is knowingly used by some inventors to cloud the true story if experimental device problems or errors appear stating the reporter misquoted or misunderstood what was said, it's a easy out and always used.
I'm looking for "first hand' credible and verifiable information straight from Andrea Rossi ..... you have to look hard and long for anything directly from Andrea Rossi is what I've been finding. ;)
Like I posted earlier Mr. Don Smith's letter is not the only oddity or discrepancy that can be found, some are in Andrea Rossi own words. ???
Regard's
Fuzzy
;)
Quote from: chessnyt on May 30, 2012, 09:45:27 PM
@Gwandau:
Dick Smith is an infamous skeptic and wealthy (eccentric) tycoon. If there's one thing an extremely wealthy man hates more than anything else, it's having been proven wrong publicly.
And so I must agree with you here. After all, Dick Smith would have been left with a tangible piece of equipment in the end. One he could donate to the science museum of his choice to ensure that millions of people could see it for themselves. He could have even turned a profit by setting up a 6 month live demonstration in which he could have sold tickets to. I know I would be willing to pay $1000.00 U.S. dollars cash just to see an E-Cat in operation for just 15 minutes along with all of the chart recorders and professional test equipment hooked up to it.
And as for the matter of Rossi's reasoning in refusing the offer (assuming that the question is legitimately and sincerely being presented here and not for purposes of an indirect attack on Rossi);If Fuzzytomcat really wants to know why Rossi refused, then why in the world is he asking me? Why isn't he asking Rossi?
Regards,
Chess
P.S. Am I missing something here? ::)
@ chessnyt,
I was under the assumption that being you were the one that started the thread and has posted the majority of information on "ROSSI" and specifically his e-cat
"Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" ( LENR ) device that you were "his" go to person for this device technology here at Over Unity. ???
My mistake from what you are indicating ... I will now be contacting him directly with a challenge to have his "e-cat" ( LENR ) device shown at
http://www.opensourceresearchanddevelopment.org/Home.html for a 24/7 "LIVE" streaming broadcast with the interactive chat room for the world to see first hand. ;)
There has been many that has been asked, and no one has excepted the challenge as of today, they all have refused to give a
"LIVE" 24/7 conformation of claim broadcast .... all of them being able to use a web cam at their choice of location and testing their own device with a chat room audience with them answering questions on the broadcasted demonstration. ::)
Those that have
"refused" or ignore the
"conformation of claim" broadcast at this point the general public and open source community will consider it a fraudulent device. ???
FTC
;)
My dear MileHigh
Always entertaining to read your posts. I never called you a troll. On the contrary. I only mentioned that our trolls, as a rule suffer from a certain vacuity of intellect. And I drew the distinction that your own intellect seemed 'open' rather than vacuous. If you then chose to INFER that I IMPLIED that you were a troll - then that's an unsubstantiated and unverifiable allegation - which speaks to your own confusions rather than mine. An open mind is a desirable thing. Even when it shares nothing more substantial than the vacuum of space - or the thin, thin air in our stratosphere... up there mile or so high.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 30, 2012, 12:02:25 PM
So it's like you want a form of Apartheid around here. There are the "regular" contributors and there are the "trolls." The trolls are people that have a differing opinion than yours. The trolls are second-class citizens and they should be restricted to "townships," right Rosemary? Trolls "pollute" the environment and "regular" people like you have to "manage" them.
This is indeed an interesting point. Trolls are NOT second-class citizens. Trolls are those contributors who OPPOSE the forum topic. I've just taken the trouble to read through your posts including those that you managed before you were banned. I see no evidence of you supporting this forum or indeed this thread topic. I would, therefore, with respect, suggest that perhaps, surprisingly, you ARE that TROLL. Who would have thought? Perhaps you can offer some evidence to the contrary. And I was always an advocate of property ownership to take our townships OUT of government control. Which made me an UNDESIRABLE to our erstwhile National Government. So. I was, INDEED, that troll AGAINST apartheid - that you are AGAINST energy efficient technologies. And I was ACTIVELY engaged. Unlike you, I believe, on the whole, I was rather effective.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 30, 2012, 12:02:25 PMDon't you dare ever call me a troll again. Do you understand me? Don't you dare.
Golly. I MUST NOT DARE TO CALL YOU A TROLL? I think your readiness to identify with this description speaks to your own branding as troll. NOTHING to do with what I've inferred- implied - or alleged. Sadly.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 30, 2012, 12:02:25 PMYou are clearly out of your element and your points above make very little sense or you don't understand the issues. Somebody else can discuss it with you if they want to.
You are on the money here MileHigh. I do NOT know the quantum effect of global warming resulting from multiple applications of the E-Cat. NOR would I EVER expect you to answer this. Which is precisely why I referred the question to Chess or Loner. What I suspect is that actually - with the extraordinary efficiencies offered by our Genius experimenter - Andrea Rossi - we'll be able to apply that technology to our 'global hotspots' - and perhaps COOL down those scars on our planet that are liable to explode in catastrophic volcanic eruptions.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 30, 2012, 12:02:25 PMThere have been no conclusive tests done. An analogy is the RomeroUK fake magnet motor. Hundreds of people believed it was real without any conclusive proof. It's time to take off the rose coloured glasses and demand hard and verifiable data. Using alleged steam production was one of the worst possible things that Rossi could do and you should do some soul searching about that.
I don't think you can number those believers in the hundreds any more. More in the tens of thousands. The goal is to get it known by the millions. And that belief is NOT based on good faith but on the expert advices of those who HAVE accredited these remarkable results. And I see that you've extended your DENIALS as per engagement TROLL - to RomeroUK. Have you EVER supported any evidence of Over Unity? MileHigh? When all evidence is dismissed as 'laughable nonsense' then you're asking us to dismiss the foundations of good science - based as it is on experimental proof. Isn't that what one would expect from a TROLL?
Rosie Pose
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on May 31, 2012, 12:20:00 AM
@ chessnyt,
I was under the assumption that being you were the one that started the thread and has posted the majority of information on "ROSSI" and specifically his e-cat "Low Energy Nuclear Reaction" ( LENR ) device that you were "his" go to person for this device technology here at Over Unity. ???
My mistake from what you are indicating ... I will now be contacting him directly with a challenge to have his "e-cat" ( LENR ) device shown at http://www.opensourceresearchanddevelopment.org/Home.html (http://www.opensourceresearchanddevelopment.org/Home.html) for a 24/7 "LIVE" streaming broadcast with the interactive chat room for the world to see first hand. ;)
There has been many that has been asked, and no one has excepted the challenge as of today, they all have refused to give a "LIVE" 24/7 conformation of claim broadcast .... all of them being able to use a web cam at their choice of location and testing their own device with a chat room audience with them answering questions on the broadcasted demonstration. ::)
Those that have "refused" or ignore the "conformation of claim" broadcast at this point the general public and open source community will consider it a fraudulent device. ???
FTC
;)
Hello again FTC
You should, perhaps, try and find out the difference between the words 'accepted' and 'excepted' if you expect anyone at all to make sense of your posts. But from what I read here I take it that you are seriously proposing to engage our Andrea Rossi in the live broadcast of his E-Cat technology? And this on that defunct link that died after the only replication it ever made public being an erstwhile claim of COP>4? Since the OWNER of that Open Source Research and Development site is also widely known to DENY the benefits of his own earlier well publicised claims - then I have a real problem with this proposal. Because based on that pattern of behaviour he's just as likely to DENY the benefits that he makes publicly accessible in EXACTLY the same way as he DENIED the benefits to his own earlier test. You remember that test? Where he variously claimed it as a REPLICATION of a COP>17 test and, confusingly, also claimed it as his own independent DISCOVERY? And then... that was subsequently DENIED in either capacity? :o 8)
I think the real problem here is nothing to do with the proposal so much as with the proposer. And I'm not at all sure that you represent public opinion - on any level at all. So. IF you're inclined to doubt the efficacy of the E-Cat - then I think you must learn to live with those doubts. I'm reasonably satisfied that - in the fullness of time - our Andrea Rossi will be able to show everyone the benefits without any need to reference that rather sad little address - and its equally sad little owner.
Kindest regards,
Rosie Pose
:D
Bye the Way (BtW) I will also take the trouble to caution Andrea Rossi as to the identity of that owner - lest he be tempted to rely on any of the presentations in that proposal of his. God forbid that he be conned into thinking that this could be a reliable venue.
Again with the utmost respect,
Rosie Posie pudding and pie
Quote from: fuzzytomcat on May 30, 2012, 11:30:40 PM
The idea of spending what ever the cost for a 1MW e-cat unit "without" the claim results repeated from the March 29, 2011 demonstration, Mr Don Smith may be buying a very expensive "paper weight". I would put this in the same type of venue on purchasing a multi million luxury yacht or home for cash from a magazine, newspaper article or a ten minute YouTube video without you actually physically steping on board or checking out what your getting "first'. ::)
What happens if you purchase the ROSSI e-cat device and doesn't work ..... do you get your money back ? There's a multitude of excuses that can be used by any inventor when it doesn't work just like we see from every other experimental device, from being installed improperly to sun spots and every excuse in between why it doesn't work. ???
Just as I had suspected, another propagandist at work here. Here, the author tries to instill doubt that there is any warranty or moneyback guarantee. This clumsy attempt is quite transparent and shaggy (fuzzy).
Now here's the truth to dispel the disinformation presented by the author:
o The man who made the $1 million dollar offer is Dick Smith. Not Don Smith.
o Rossi does in fact offer warranties on both the home and the industrial version of the E-Cat.
"Warranty for functionality is two years with a guaranteed COP of 6, and the plant has an expected life span of 30 years." -- ecat.com (official website for E-Cat products)
For those who want to hear Rossi in his own words, I submit the following link to the video:
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5s1gTL54M&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5s1gTL54M&feature=player_embedded)
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on May 31, 2012, 01:24:45 AM
Just as I had suspected, another propagandist at work here. Here, the author tries to instill doubt that there is any warranty or moneyback guarantee. This clumsy attempt is quite transparent and shaggy (fuzzy).
Now here's the truth to dispel the disinformation presented by the author:
o The man who made the $1 million dollar offer is Dick Smith. Not Don Smith.
o Rossi does in fact offer warranties on both the home and the industrial version of the E-Cat.
"Warranty for functionality is two years with a guaranteed COP of 6, and the plant has an expected life span of 30 years." -- ecat.com (official website for E-Cat products)
For those who want to hear Rossi in his own words, I submit the following link to the video:
Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5s1gTL54M&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap5s1gTL54M&feature=player_embedded)
Chess
On the money AGAIN, Chess. Our trolls LURK. All over the place.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 31, 2012, 01:10:00 AM
Hello again FTC
I think the real problem here is nothing to do with the proposal so much as with the proposer. And I'm not at all sure that you represent public opinion - on any level at all. So. IF you're inclined to doubt the efficacy of the E-Cat - then I think you must learn to live with those doubts. I'm reasonably satisfied that - in the fullness of time - our Andrea Rossi will be able to show everyone the benefits without any need to reference that rather sad little address - and its equally sad little owner.
Kindest regards,
Rosie Pose
:D
Bye the Way (BtW) I will also take the trouble to caution Andrea Rossi as to the identity of that owner - lest he be tempted to rely on any of the presentations in that proposal of his. God forbid that he be conned into thinking that this could be a reliable venue.
Again with the utmost respect,
Rosie Posie pudding and pie
I still see some misunderstanding here ..... ::)
What gets broadcasted
24/7 "LIVE" ..... I physically have nothing to do with other than pushing the
"ON" button in the studio for anyone world wide to show .... their device .... with their camera .... at their location .... using their testing equipment. ;)
I do not touch their device at all. ;D What you might be referring to several years ago was only showing 30% of the actual broadcasting station capabilities.
This is just like a TV station with a control room or studio, split screen, fade in fade out or normal stuff .... It's their presentation not mine. I supply the venue and all spelled out on the web site home page. ::)
Quote
http://www.opensourceresearchanddevelopment.org/Home.html
Our commitment to the Open Source Community
We are trying to provide a service for Inventors and Experimentalist a venue for "LIVE" 24/7 streaming broadcasting of their devices or products to the internet. In a effort to give testing, evaluation or research capabilities for some type of verification on claimed operation or function from items for possible further development to the general public or for manufacturing.
The "LIVE" 24/7 streaming broadcast has a interactive "chat room" for viewers to make comments and suggestions to the devices or projects under discussion and evaluation LIVE on web from guests to academics or engineering experts.
The areas of items in discussion to be broadcasted can range from alternative energy, renewable energy, green energy, clean energy, free energy, geothermal, fluid, wind, solar, electronic technology or electrical technology.
Anyone having a project can submit a request to the Station "Executive Producer" to gain access to this station in a producer role to show your device, product or item on a "LIVE" broadcast, using your own web camera and a internet connection at your place of demonstration. Your broadcast will be relayed through this stations Video Control Room to LiveStream and broadcasted streaming over the internet.
Using this approach for verification of "CLAIMS" of devices or products the applicant Inventor or Experimentalist is responsible using their own device, equipment or product for it's functionality to support and further their "CLAIM".
This LIVE evaluation process eliminates those replicators that verify the "CLAIMS" with costly, rare, unique or hand custom made items to purchase for assemblies. This also narrows down "FRAUDULENT" claims having excuses to verifying replicators of them possibly cherry picking or throwing data off construction and many other various problems that may and do arise, this is of course dependent on the item being broadcasted and evaluated.
The stakes today in the world are high, so the responsibility of Success or Failure rides on the Producer applicant that wishes to
SHOW THEIR WARES
"LIVE"
Staying on topic .... if it works
"it works" ..... if it doesn't work
"it doesn't work" .... plain and simple, and
100% up to the inventor ... period. ;)
Oh .... and it's a "FREE" service ;D
FTC
;)
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on May 31, 2012, 01:32:39 AM
On the money AGAIN, Chess. Our trolls LURK. All over the place.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
And so are the
"SHILLS" ..... but they don't
LURK. ???
Their here on
soap boxes publicizes and praising devices for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, friendship, loyalty and always acting as an enthusiastic member in order to stimulate the participation of others making comments all without merit aimed at the viewing guests. ::)
FTC
;)
Rosemary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
QuoteIn Internet slang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang), a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective), or off-topic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic) messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion) response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."
When I make postings they are about the subject matter in the thread and I am trying to make an honest contribution.
So the definition of a troll is
not "anybody who disagrees with me" like you are trying to imply. You are
completely wrong and do not call me a troll.
You are definitely trying to make it seem that people that disagree with you are second class citizens and you try to label them as trolls. Time to stop your gross and disgusting behaviour.
QuoteWhen all evidence is dismissed as 'laughable nonsense' then you're asking us to dismiss the foundations of good science - based as it is on experimental proof.
More like junk science. You had to put on your blinders and ignore the serious debate that was raging about wet steam vs. dry steam and how you couldn't tell what it was and how hard it was to measure the amount produced and so on. Every normal person was expecting to see a heat exchanger with cold water in and warm water out. Between the temperature differential and the flow rate, both easily measurable, you could calculate the output energy.
So why did Rossi put on this smoke and mirrors dog and pony show when all that he had to do was run water through a heat exchanger? When he did the demo with the industrial version he used big cooling fans and radiators - more ambiguous data. Why was there a big honking 500 kilowatt electrical generator running during that demo?
How come for many of these demos, instead of it being straightforward and easily measurable, the inventor chooses to do something unusual ambiguous and unclear instead?
The answer is that they know that people like you will gobble it all up anyways and run around with glazed eyes.
MileHigh
OMG!
The oldest tactic in the world ... deceive the opponent.
Look at it for a moment: each day hundreds maybe thousands of us are reading, here and elsewhere, about promising news on ‘free energy’. The same day or next day we too easy pay 1.xEur for a liter of gasoline/diesel but because of what we’ve just read we quickly comfort with the idea it won’t be for much longer. Then we hear of more promising discoveries and we again accept another small increase in the cost of energy, heat, fuel, electricity etc. Am I the only one to see a clear pattern here?! Especially considering that not a single fe device was at least properly demonstrated?! Not even Rossi’s and not for 1 million dollars with no other strings attached! Get real: such offer can not possibly be refused under a logical reasoning and yet it was!
I am also looking at the many people who seem to have endlessly spare time to post thousands of propagandistic writings here... Few of them even dare to call some of us “trolls†but that’s part of the same pattern of intentionally fooling people around...
Doesn’t it look pretty clear that they and not the so called “trolls†are the ones paid by the oil and energy cartels to get us drunk with plain water so we accept their unjustified prices for energy?! Check some of the members that clearly act as full-time employees who post, here and elsewhere, countless messages without any substance but full of manipulation...
Do you need names? This is a good thread to find some...
They only sell hopes we’ll have “free energy†soon so it won’t hurt us much if we pay - for their benefit - a very high cost for the “not-so-free energy†of today.
85 pages of pure propaganda and counting...
Wake up people!
Tinu
If you don't agree with chess go find another thread to annoy and leave this one alone. The reason for the disagreement with Dick Smith’s $1m challenge to Defkalion ended when the Australian businessman pulled out. Citing Defkalion’s insistence on secrecy as a deal killer, Smith will watch the outcome of the forthcoming Hyperion tests before deciding what to do next. they are the facts so go away trolls you know who you are.
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 08:17:01 AM
How come for many of these demos, instead of it being straightforward and easily measurable, the inventor chooses to do something unusual ambiguous and unclear instead?
The answer is that they know that people like you will gobble it all up anyways and run around with glazed eyes/
MileHigh - you're asking us to believe that Rossi is investing huge chapters of his money and his life into some kind of hoax that is perpetrated for no better reason than to encourage the uncritical public to 'run around with glazed eyes'? That's an interesting proposal - if somewhat bereft of logic. But that has to be the whole of your argument. Because clearly he is NOT conning us out of money on a pre-sales hoax - there can be no other reasonable explanation.
How strange that you would think that anyone at all could buy into this as a motive. In any event - Chess and Gwandau have both covered this point before. And now the arguments are just getting repetitive. IF Rossi was asking for money from an unsuspecting pubic - PRIOR to the delivery of his E-Cat - then ONLY could you spin this spin. As it is - he's deferring all payment until delivery.
I asked this before. Where in the proud history of your membership on this forum have you EVER supported over unity evidence? There's been much on offer. But you've ACCEPTED NOTHING MileHigh. That most certainly means - at its least - that you're posting at the wrong address.
Rosie Pose
tinu - you're flirting with a level of 'misinformation' that is even beyond the complexities of your average conspiracy theorist. Those who support Rossi's evidence of OU are NOT confined to this forum or indeed to any. They are amongst our academic experts who have NOTHING to gain in accrediting the results of LENR - which they have done REPEATEDLY. There are countless testimonies to this efficacy. Just look back on this thread.
Quote from: tinu on May 31, 2012, 08:39:03 AM
OMG!
The oldest tactic in the world ... deceive the opponent.
Look at it for a moment: each day hundreds maybe thousands of us are reading, here and elsewhere, about promising news on ‘free energy’. The same day or next day we too easy pay 1.xEur for a liter of gasoline/diesel but because of what we’ve just read we quickly comfort with the idea it won’t be for much longer. Then we hear of more promising discoveries and we again accept another small increase in the cost of energy, heat, fuel, electricity etc. Am I the only one to see a clear pattern here?! Especially considering that not a single fe device was at least properly demonstrated?! Not even Rossi’s and not for 1 million dollars with no other strings attached! Get real: such offer can not possibly be refused under a logical reasoning and yet it was!
I am also looking at the many people who seem to have endlessly spare time to post thousands of propagandistic writings here... Few of them even dare to call some of us “trolls†but that’s part of the same pattern of intentionally fooling people around...
Doesn’t it look pretty clear that they and not the so called “trolls†are the ones paid by the oil and energy cartels to get us drunk with plain water so we accept their unjustified prices for energy?! Check some of the members that clearly act as full-time employees who post, here and elsewhere, countless messages without any substance but full of manipulation...
Do you need names? This is a good thread to find some...
They only sell hopes we’ll have “free energy†soon so it won’t hurt us much if we pay - for their benefit - a very high cost for the “not-so-free energy†of today.
85 pages of pure propaganda and counting...
Wake up people!
I think that you'd need to be comatose to try and ignore the evidence that is now so bountiful that it's no longer deniable. But if it doesn't make you feel hopeful - then tough. You'll still be the beneficiary when this technology eventually becomes available. And it's not too far away now.
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: energy1234hope on May 31, 2012, 09:08:40 AM
If you don't agree with chess go find another thread to annoy and leave this one alone. The reason for the disagreement with Dick Smith’s $1m challenge to Defkalion ended when the Australian businessman pulled out. Citing Defkalion’s insistence on secrecy as a deal killer, Smith will watch the outcome of the forthcoming Hyperion tests before deciding what to do next. they are the facts so go away trolls you know who you are.
Well said Hope. And I'm glad you explained this as I didn't realise it. So. It was Smith who pulled out of the deal - NOT Defkalion. How does that sit with you FTC? MileHigh?
Kindest regards,
Rosie
Quote from: energy1234hope on May 31, 2012, 09:08:40 AM
If you don't agree with chess go find another thread to annoy and leave this one alone. The reason for the disagreement with Dick Smith’s $1m challenge to Defkalion ended when the Australian businessman pulled out. Citing Defkalion’s insistence on secrecy as a deal killer, Smith will watch the outcome of the forthcoming Hyperion tests before deciding what to do next. they are the facts so go away trolls you know who you are.
Gee ....Whizz .... ::)
I see Rosemary has signed in with one of her other "screen names" to agree with herself again, further evidence of her being a
"SUPER SHILL" . This is a common practice to deceive the members and public with reasons or allegations that are unproven and without references or links where the information conveyed came from with nothing but wood salad spoken. ;)
This is Rosemary's investment in "ROSSI" for those unaware .... ???
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
Quote
204 - AT LAST
Dear Reader,
Today is a red letter day. I have finally managed to make contact with Rossi. Here's the letter that I wrote subsequent to sending him those two papers of ours.
What a pleasure. Hopefully we'll hear more from him in due course.
Kindest as ever,
Rosemary
---------------------------------------------------------
Dear Andrea,
This is â€" very broadly â€" the synopsis.
The thesis argues that magnetic fields are a primary force and that all the forces are the effects from varying dimensional structures of these magnetic fields. The fields themselves are structured from magnetic dipoles that naturally organise into ‘closed strings’. The fields are dynamic and they orbit at a velocity of 2C.
These fields come in three dimensions. So, a 1 dimensional field (a binding field) is responsible for the weak nuclear interaction including the electromagnetic and the galvanic processes. 2 dimensional fields, (having length and breadth) are responsible for the strong nuclear force. And finally, 3 dimensional fields (having length, breadth and depth) is the torus, which is associated with a complete magnetic field. This is responsible for gravity.
Where it deviates from the standard model is only in this. It proposes that magnetic fields comprise this non-standard dipole that has a velocity that exceeds light speed. It also proposes that a magnetic field is a primary force underpinning all the known forces. In all other respects it conforms ENTIRELY to the standard model. It would explain the existence and operation of the forces â€" and it would account for the Casimir effect. and it would be precisely related to Plank’s constant. Because â€" in a field â€" they orbit at velocities that exceed light speed, then light cannot find these particles. Therefore they remain ‘dark’ â€" outside our abilities to detect it. Effectively they operate in a dimension of time that exceeds our own abilities to measure it. Therefore it relates precisely to the ‘dark’ energy that has been measured by our astrophysicists.
As this relates to your own system, the proposal is that these fields are responsible for binding coalesced matter. Read the appendix to the second part of that two-part paper. In a chaotic state which is when the particle is NOT in an orbital field formation â€" then the particles become as hot and as big and as slow as they were previously cold and small and fast. But in their ‘hot’ state, they are no longer ‘binding’ that coalesced material. Therefore the bound condition becomes compromised. This would enable the contamination of anything within range of those chaotic particles. For example, should copper be proximate â€" then the copper atoms would decouple from their coalesced condition and loosen from the structure.
The thing is this. If there is an intrinsic molecular imbalance which occurs when more binding fields are available than required to ‘bind’ that material - then the condition of chaos can be perpetuated to become self sustaining. Our test 3 of the 1st part of that paper refers. As, indeed, do the results in your own experimental evidence. Then the requirement is to continually apply more material to reduce the rate of that interaction which, otherwise, will become catastrophically hot. We both applied water. You did this to much greater force and effect. LOL
But here’s the thing Andrea. We have only defined a magnetic field as being ‘structured’ from a magnetic dipole. I’ve presumed to call this a ‘zipon’ because it sort of relates to a required function to ‘zip’ on and off atoms â€" or to ‘zip’ in and out of a field condition. And then it links to the thing that it IS, which is related to ‘zero point’ energy. But call it what you will. The minute you apply a particle to the magnetic field â€" then all those unanswered questions of our Greats â€" fall into place. It explains the existence of that ‘other’ dimension â€" which is required to explain many paradoxes including questions of ‘locality’. It also marries those diverse branches of physics including quantum and classical â€" dark forces and string theories. And it is ONLY based on an extension to Faraday’s Lines of Force. It is better explained in the appendix to our second paper.
Incidentally â€" we have been able to reconcile the mass/size ratio of the proton to the electron â€" using this field. And this was managed, through the simple means of analysing stable particles as composites of these fundamental magnetic dipoles. And, more to the point â€" it localises that ‘dark energy’ that our astrophysicists require. I suspect that they may be pleased to hear of this â€" as it explains so much.
But most significantly â€" this explanation does NOT deviate â€" in any way â€" from the standard model. It’s only an extension. And the minute you apply this ‘extension’ then, as mentioned, everything sort of falls into place.
Let me know if you want to discuss this further.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
As you all can see, Rosemary isn't here at OU with several screen names spouting on her "soap box" for the device other than to attach her
"THESIS" to it ... plain and simple.
FTC
;)
Rosemary:
QuoteMileHigh - you're asking us to believe that Rossi is investing huge chapters of his money and his life into some kind of hoax that is perpetrated for no better reason than to encourage the uncritical public to 'run around with glazed eyes'? That's an interesting proposal - if somewhat bereft of logic. But that has to be the whole of your argument. Because clearly he is NOT conning us out of money on a pre-sales hoax - there can be no other reasonable explanation.
I don't know what Rossi's motivations are. But look at the example of Steorn. It was a $20M "make work" project so a bunch of dudes cold drink beer, play with magnets, and surf the net. They produced zero after eight years. It was just an exercise in creative cash burning. So there are concrete examples of how to fritter away investor cash and "keep working."
QuoteHow strange that you would think that anyone at all could buy into this as a motive. In any event - Chess and Gwandau have both covered this point before. And now the arguments are just getting repetitive. IF Rossi was asking for money from an unsuspecting pubic - PRIOR to the delivery of his E-Cat - then ONLY could you spin this spin. As it is - he's deferring all payment until delivery.
Nobody knows how much investment money Rossi has taken in or where it is going. That's the real issue right now. Nobody knows if or when a home E-Cat will be sold and delivered to a customer. There will be some bruised egos around here if on December 31, 2013 not a single home E-Cat has been shipped to a customer. Of course we can always move the goal posts, can't we?
QuoteI asked this before. Where in the proud history of your membership on this forum have you EVER supported over unity evidence? There's been much on offer. But you've ACCEPTED NOTHING MileHigh. That most certainly means - at its least - that you're posting at the wrong address.
Kiss my ass Rosemary. What I say or do is none of your business and I will not submit to any Apartheid free energy litmus test of your making. I just participate in a few threads that I am interested in. I don't have glazed eyes and if I saw something that I thought was genuine I would say so. Up to now I have not seen any evidence of something genuine.
MileHigh
MileHigh:
Are you talking only the E-cat not making delivery, or any of the other four companies working on the same type cold fusion technology also?
@Rosemary,
Your words are wonderful but still void of substance, still propaganda.
Show me the real device please.
If you have hard facts, please share. Otherwise I’m not interested and actually after 86 pages and many months I’m quite irritated because of endlessly posts of yours that want to be grandiose but are just empty. Of course you are free to post regardless of my irritation. One question arises, however: why do you do it?! It looks like you are either paid by someone to do it or you have a real passion to waste our time. Not only that but you offend friends and valuable members! Stop that now; there is a limit for everything but you’ve trespassed it grossly.
Now, onto the subject itself:
I’ve been overloading H into Ni like crazy since January so I know a couple of things about it…
I’ve been trying to replicate Piantelli’s work with Ni, Zn, Co and few other metals but no success. In fact, one of his very first studies on OU is containing evidences of non OU by itself but that aspect is less known… I’ve been giving him a try, nonetheless.
Academia has got only minor results that, although encouraging and exciting, might prove by the end to be mere peculiarities. Nobody knows yet about the final outcome so you can not be sure it will be a success, right? Anyway, none claimed results of Rossi’s magnitude ever. Or, if you like, Blacklight claimed it in theory but it remained an unproven claim. Also, in terms of other fancy claims, why don’t you take a trip to Hungary â€" EBM/gammamanager to buy one of their “free energy†machine? They advertise for several years now... “We are routinely producing with our EBM Power Plants several kilowatts well over unity without any pollution and emissions whatsoever!†http://www.gammamanager.com (http://www.gammamanager.com)
Point is… there is no Rossi’s evidence but unsubstantiated claims.
If one considers the myriad of issues with steam quantity and quality, peristaltic pump/ water flow rates, stored thermal energy, etc. etc. it’s getting right to the edge of false claims. He looks now much worse that the above two examples.
So, considering the above and many more, what are you talking about in 86pages?! If you are so passionate, go get a pile of Ni powder or a chunk of Ni, make heat out of it and only then enlighten us. Or go and write to Rossi, visit him and come back with hard evidences so clear that nobody can deny them and consequently we can fully support his cause. Or simply let the voice down because you may be wrong and may want saving face or what’s left of it…
Cheers,
Oh, tinu is a name and therefore t is a capital letter, right Rose?
Tinu
Quote from: tinu on May 31, 2012, 05:27:10 PM
...Blacklight claimed it in theory but it remained an unproven claim.
Tinu,
BlackLight Hydrino reactors are today fully validated by several third party scientific institutions and organizations. Below is a link covering all of the validation reports published.
http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/ (http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/)
Their patents are probably in the near future going to interfere with the E-cat production by Andrea Rossi, since they adress
the physics behind LENR in a perfectly legimitate scientific context.
High efficient LENR processes are mushrooming all over the planet right now, so I really don't understand how on earth anyone still
find it even feasible to maintain a sceptic point of view behind an attitude of fair obectiveness.
How could you even state such things about BlackLight without checking out what's going on?
Don't you understand that those type of posts are creating an unfounded sceptisism in anyone reading this.
Please get updated, high effÃcient LENR is here to stay.
Gwandau
@ Gwandau,
Now please state what is the maximum power output that was certified for Blacklight latest reactors.
Can you favorably compare it with the magnitude of Rossi’s claimed results?
Cheers,
Tinu
To all sceptics.
Scepticism can be quite a good virtue if handled with responsibility and care, just as the case with optimism.
Keep in mind that healthy scepticism is a state of mind not to be confused with a negative state of mind, since the latter is conditioned by preconceptions.
Often negative scepticism evolves from a combination of progress-ignorance and an rigid confidence in old school knowledge,
especially when the changes are surfacing from sources not approved by orthodox science.
But all big discoveries are unorthodox.
So many great discoveries have been suppressed the last hundred years, that we today would have quite a different situation on earth,
if it wasn't for all the sceptics unknowingly being nourished by the guys opposing changes that would threaten their wealth.
If you did not know it, it is a well known fact today that Fleishman and Pons was framed by high officials at MIT and
that the evidence against the validity of their work was fabricated by scientist connected to the hot fusion projects.
Below is a link to a stunning report written by the late Eugene Mallove details the efforts of professors, researchers,
and even the former President of MIT to squash cold fusion at all costs.
If you have any doubt that Pons and Fleischmann had enemies desperately trying to discredit them, this article will erase it!
http://pesn.com/2011/12/27/9601994_History_of_MITs_Blatant_Suppression_of_Cold_Fusion/ (http://pesn.com/2011/12/27/9601994_History_of_MITs_Blatant_Suppression_of_Cold_Fusion/)
Gwandau
Quote from: tinu on May 31, 2012, 06:58:25 PM
@ Gwandau,
Now please state what is the maximum power output that was certified for Blacklight latest reactors.
Can you favorably compare it with the magnitude of Rossi’s claimed results?
Cheers,
Tinu
Tinu,
why don't you look it up yourself?
It's all in the reports.
example:
"Dr. Terry Copeland, former manager of product development for several electrochemical and energy companies including DuPont Company and Duracell. “BLP has successfully fabricated and tested CIHT cells capable of producing net electrical output up to 50 times that input to maintain the process,†said Dr. Copeland. “Some cells have produced steady power for over one month. The power generation is consistent with Dr. Mills’ theory of energy release resulting from Hydrino formation. No other source of energy could be identified. ..."
Gwandau
@ Gwandau,
Yes, it’s in the reports. I am aware about their work. It’s usually several mW.
I hope too it’s scalable to several kW but we simply don’t know yet…
50 is the multiplication factor. It must have been a misunderstanding because I was not talking at all about that in my original post. Anyway if you want to discuss it, Rossi claims not only kW power levels but self-sustained reaction, meaning that multiplication factor is infinite, as you know. mW can not compare favorably with kW neither 50 with infinite. So, although Blacklight claims it as possible under hydrino theory, in practice it was not confirmed in more than 15 years (if I recall it correctly).
I don’t see there is something wrong in what I initially wrote.
Cheers,
Tinu
My dear tinu,
Quote from: tinu on May 31, 2012, 05:27:10 PM
Your words are wonderful but still void of substance, still propaganda. Show me the real device please.
Thank you for the compliment. I'm afraid I must concede that there's a bias in my posts. I'm a great supporter of Andrea Rossi - personally - and LENR products - generally. But I'm glad to see that you think I do this justice. Always nice to be appreciated.
Quote from: tinu on May 31, 2012, 05:27:10 PMCheers,Oh, tinu is a name and therefore t is a capital letter, right Rose?
Tinu
LOL. Not actually. My eyes are not very good but even I can see that your name is written 'tinu'. In any event tinu? Tinu? whichever you prefer - I do my bit towards promoting energy efficient devices together with MANY of our esteemed members here and everywhere. As this is the general theme of this forum - then I think I'm more or less 'on topic'. But if you find my posts offensive - then I've got a PERFECT solution. Don't bother to read them. It's not obligatory. I assure you. But always a pleasure to note that you approve of the 'style' if not the 'content'.
Rosie Pose
added
And tinu - BTW - I think what you claimed is that Blacklight had NOT been proved. And what Gwandau showed you is that you are WRONG on this point. It most certainly HAS been proved. But if you prefer us to think that you were RIGHT - then I'm sure we could all rally and pretend this. Just like we can pretend that you spell your name with a capitol 't'.
Rosemary:
No comment about the troll issue, eh? You never have enough class to acknowledge when you are wrong.
I have already read a couple of times that Blacklight's recent press release about the multiple independent third party validation is not explicitly true. These were tests arranged and coordinated by Blacklight itself. So that is suspect data. I will try to find a link.
I will remind everybody that about three or four years ago that Blacklight promised the delivery of a 50-kilowatt electrical generating reactor. That never happened. The goal posts have moved, and now I believe that the target is a 100-watt demo generator.
I don't know too much about Blacklight but one thing I know is that after more than 20 years and 400 million dollars of investor money, today you can't buy a single thing from Blacklight Power that produces power.
So it's possible that Blacklight is no better than Steorn. I don't know what the future holds but it is a distinct possibility. Just do some searching online and you will find tons of negative comments about Blacklight, many from highly educated scientists.
For all of the talk, the fact is that you cannot purchase something from Blacklight Power that produces electrical power from alleged hydrinos. Nobody should forget that real and true fact.
MileHigh
Lumen:
I would welcome any company delivering a working LENR device.
MileHigh
Hello MileHigh
Always nice to see you there. Regarding this post of yours
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 09:56:22 PM
No comment about the troll issue, eh? You never have enough class to acknowledge when you are wrong.
On the contrary. I'm MORE than happy to concede when I'm wrong. Re that Wiki definition? I presume that's what you're referring to? Here it is.
In Internet slang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang), a
troll is someone who posts inflammatory,
[2] extraneous (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective), or off-topic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic) messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion) response
[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."
By definition therefore a troll opposes the sentiments of those engaged in discussion. Therefore essentially - the troll opposes the thread topic. Therefore, in as much as you are OPPOSING both the forum and the thread topic then that makes you...? An esteemed member? Golly. :o 8)
And MileHigh - you never commented on my artistic tribute to a namesake of yours. I was so hoping I'd flattered you both. And from those high reaches you could keep each other company.
Kindest regards MilesOffCourse
Rosie Pose
Rosemary:
QuoteBy definition therefore a troll opposes the sentiments of those engaged in discussion.
That's not true at all. It does not say that in the definition. You are so hopeless and hapless sometimes.
MileHigh
Hello again MilesOffTopic
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 10:27:13 PM
Rosemary:
That's not true at all. It does not say that in the definition. You are so hopeless and hapless sometimes.
MileHigh
Hapless and hopeless? Golly. I want to know when a troll is NOT a troll. In terms of Wiki - he needs must OPPOSE the group sentiments. And his posts needs must be provocative. I'm reasonably certain that you comply. Provocative - unsubstantiated - statements - that are diametrically opposing the group sentiments. Unless I'm misreading all this MileHigh. In which case I am both hapless and hopeless. Nicely alliterative by the way. (btw). :-*
And I know nothing about Blacklight technology. I'm not sure that it's a thread topic. But I also see that rather heavy handed attempt at tarnishing LENR by association with other claims that may or may not be equally as good. I take it that your concern is that anyone at all is making money from their work in energy efficient technologies. My personal prayer is that all LENR technologies take us into a new era of scientific discovery. That's certainly what is promised from those unity breaches. And if there are those who make money from this, then so much the better. Financial reward has always been a strong motivator.
Again, kindest as ever,
Rosie Pose
Rosemary:
There is nothing wrong with debate and opposing views in a thread. Neither side is supposed to call the other side trolls. Put your brain in gear for God's sake.
The day that you can actually buy an LENR device will be a great day. Unfortunately the reality of the world is that there are parasitic people that feed off of gullible people. That factors into the realm of free energy all to often.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
There is nothing wrong with debate and opposing views in a thread. Neither side is supposed to call the other side trolls. Put your brain in gear for God's sake.
The day that you can actually buy an LENR device will be a great day. Unfortunately the reality of the world is that there are parasitic people that feed off of gullible people. That factors into the realm of free energy all to often/
I agree. As rare as this may be - the fact is that I'm ENTIRELY in agreement with you - for once. There are indeed 'parasitic people' that feed off the 'gullible'. But ROSSI is, self-evidently NOT one of those people. And this thread topic is about ROSSI and LENR technology. And while opposing views are always WELCOME - they needs must be ALSO based on fact. When they're based on allegation, and innuendo, and implication and insinuation and unsupported and unsupportable INFERENCE - then that is NOT only NOT topical it's also NOT acceptable.
Rosie Pose
Rosemary:
I agree, it has to be based on fact. We are still waiting for Rossi to let some definitive third-party testing to be done in order to establish the facts.
I told you all about the problems with the Rossi-orchestrated steam generation and measurements but you simply put on your blinders and stick your fingers in your ears and start to hum. The fact is that will not make the problem go away.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 11:02:21 PM
I agree, it has to be based on fact. We are still waiting for Rossi to let some definitive third-party testing to be done in order to establish the facts.
I told you all about the problems with the Rossi-orchestrated steam generation and measurements but you simply put on your blinders and stick your fingers in your ears and start to hum. The fact is that will not make the problem go away.
Which is PRECISELY my point. Those tests - all those DEFINITIVE TESTS - they've been done. DONE AND DUSTED - MileHigh. You are spinning that they're NOT conclusive. Nothing will satisfy you short of your own purchase of that technology. Which is just fine. No-one is asking you to buy into the BELIEF. And time alone will allow you to buy into the technology. But until then - spare us this compulsive need to regurgitate your endless suspicions. Frankly our time here would be far better spent in looking at the potential applications of 'boundless energy' which is what this technology promises. And God knows. We need some relief from the rather austere circumstances that have resulted in that stranglehold monopoly of energy products that has been promulgated by the few over the many to the ENTIRE detriment of our planet's health and our own future as a result.
You're simply NOT on the high moral platform here MileHigh. Not if you're advocating that we suspend our belief in favour of your scepticism. Because that will most certainly result in the defeat of LENR before it's fully emerged. What's needed is the continual reminder to all of us - that we do NOT need to remain imprisoned in that rather hopeless future that will inevitably result from the constraints that our monopolists are trying to promote. Their time is now PAST. There IS hope for our future. And it's best that this news start spreading. Simply to erode some of that hopelessness that's been the unremitting diet of our so called 'realists' who are in reality simply 'defeatists' - to a man. THAT is entirely and morally reprehensible.
Regards
Rosemary
Rosemary:
Can you state what the test data is and how it was measured?
You can't cook your potatoes with "belief" Rosemary.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 11:32:31 PM
Can you state what the test data is and how it was measured?
You can't cook your potatoes with "belief" Rosemary.
YES. Indeed. But there's no need. Just take the trouble to look at the E-cat news link. It's all there.
Rosie Pose
That's a cop-out. I am going to assume that you can't state what the test data was and how it was measured.
My dear MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 11:39:45 PM
That's a cop-out. I am going to assume that you can't state what the test data was and how it was measured.
Feel free to assume anything you like. It's far less effort than taking the time out to read the hard work of those academics who have accredited all this. And it makes not one iota of difference. I've just read through Wiki's reference to Rossi. It too omits that list of highly respectable chemists and academics who not only have accredited this but have independently replicated it. Which just goes to show. There are none so blind as those that will not see. Fortunately for us all Rossi is not only a genius experimentalist. He's also a giant of a man. And he's more than equal to the 'spin' that is the last post of a dying paradigm.
Rosie Pose
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
There is nothing wrong with debate and opposing views in a thread. Neither side is supposed to call the other side trolls. Put your brain in gear for God's sake.
The day that you can actually buy an LENR device will be a great day. Unfortunately the reality of the world is that there are parasitic people that feed off of gullible people. That factors into the realm of free energy all to often.
MileHigh
I wonder why you say nothing about the hot fusion work over at CERN? I can hardly wait for the day they can get enough power to heat a cup of coffee! Like they say "A few more Millions of taxpayer dollars and a few more years and we will be really close!"
I wonder who will get there first, The hot fusion team in the boat that don't float, Or Rossi with the new cool tech canoe!
Gee, I wonder! Team one has a 50 year head start!
Hey puddie cat I am from Australia so get your facts straight fool. Go back where you came from and look up on defkalion forum for more info about dick smith. I don't appreciate being called rose as i am a bloke and i see you and milehigh cause problems wherever you go.
Energy1234hope:
QuoteI don't appreciate being called rose as i am a bloke and i see you and milehigh cause problems wherever you go.
I am not "causing problems." You are the one causing problems when you say that. The last thing we need are free energy fascists that want to stomp their boots down on differing opinions.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 01, 2012, 08:14:36 AM
I am not "causing problems."
yes. you are. you are the poster child and uber fan boi of the status quo.
and why are you ignoring lumen's question about hot fusion?
Lumen:
I would hope that the two hot fusion projects are successful also. I know they cost a lot of money, just like Apollo program and the Hoover Dam and lots of other things.
Wil-beast:
I pasted the Wikipedia definition of a troll recently and when I read it the fist thing I thought of was you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQTV2FVL8jw
MileHigh
@everybody
If someone is profoundly sceptical to the feasability of using the LENR process for high efficiency energy production in spite of repeatedly published reports of successful results from all over the planet, and at the same time this someone keeps an expectant optimism to fifty years of unsuccessful multimillion dollar attempts to create efficient energy production with hot fusion, one might ask oneself: How does the logic of this someone work?
Gwandau
Quote from: MileHigh on May 31, 2012, 10:49:36 PM
Rosemary:
There is nothing wrong with debate and opposing views in a thread. Neither side is supposed to call the other side trolls. Put your brain in gear for God's sake.
The day that you can actually buy an LENR device will be a great day. Unfortunately the reality of the world is that there are parasitic people that feed off of gullible people. That factors into the realm of free energy all to often.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 01, 2012, 06:26:30 PM
Wil-beast:
I pasted the Wikipedia definition of a troll recently and when I read it the fist thing I thought of was you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQTV2FVL8jw
MileHigh
compare, contrast... conclude.
you still haven't figured out that whole integrity thing i see. ::) kiss my ass milelow... you hypocrite.
Gwandau:
I was really looking forward to the Rossi demo and when it happened I was very disappointed because of the kooky output setup and that feeling was shared by many others. And then Defkalion seems to be on shaky ground. The distant cousin Blacklight Power has zero credibility in my mind right now. So there is disagreement about the test results. So we can simply agree to disagree for now and see what the future holds.
I must emphasize I was expecting much different results as compared to what was presented. I was hoping to feel confident and convinced. I was hoping that the general consensus would be positive.
Outside the free energy enthusiast bubble, there is a lot of sentiment like mine. Sometimes a good article on a popular web site will generate hundreds of comments. You should sometimes read all 240 comments. You get a broader perspective on what the sentiment is like and you can also learn from others.
Because of all of that, we are still at the starting line, because the previous starts were false starts, in my opinion. It's frustrating how these things always seem to implode.
I understand that there are lots of positive reports from test labs, but those people are not trying to develop a product. I don't follow the saga to that level of detail. So to keep it simple, I want to see what the leader is doing. He is supposed to be the one at the forefront.
This is what my assessment of the situation is telling me. Now is that so bad, my perspective on things?
Like I said, I wanted to be convinced when Rossi did his demo. Instead, it felt like one of the many infamous Steorn demos. I understand energy reasonably well, and I had reasonable expectations for a demo, and those expectations were not met by a long-shot. I feel I have enough knowledge and experience under my belt to evaluate the merits of the demo.
Wilby:
I am just telling you what I honestly felt. You are the only person on the whole forum that evoked that response in me.
Quoteposts inflammatory,[2] extraneous (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/extraneous#Adjective), or off-topic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-topic) messages ... with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion) response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
That's
you dude all the way and perhaps you should get some psychological counseling.
I don't normally call other people trolls as a matter of course. And I couldn't care less if you are going to do some string searches for 20+ minutes to "catch me red-handed." Notice the logic in the sentence? I am not explicitly stating that I have never done it. Knowing you you probably dump all the text you page through into an encrypted log file on your hard drive.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
I fully respect your choice of being sceptical, as long you respect my choice of being optimistic.
There is no problem whatsoever in respecting another persons point of view without having to share this view.
I have said this before and I say this again: Regarding the Andrea Rossi project, the weight of the material backing up a sceptical viewpoint does not differ anything from the weight of the material backing up an optimistic viewpoint. At this point it is just an expression of the state of mind expressed by the individual character of preference. We are all standing in the waiting line, only the expressions on our faces differ.
Can we agree on that?
If you do, it may be of value for you to read the background behind the optimistic version, since it is much more fun to be optimistic.
As I mentioned earlier there is a fully understandable reason for the somewhat peculiar actions of Andrea Rossi other than the reason of being fraudulent.
First of all, he is not a scientist with any academic merits in nuclear physics, and probably really don't know exactly what he has stumbled upon.
Secondly, he keeps the secret to himself, quite burned historically and extremely afraid to make his secret known, especially with the Defkalion rip off in close memory.
As a result of this there is a quite simple reason for him not being able to construct big scale LENR reactors for MW-scale energy production. He just don't know enough about the physics behind the reaction to accomplish such a feat. All he know is how to trigger a 10KW reactor into starting LENR without making the nickel powder melt.
He may optimize the parameters involved in the E-cat and he may put the E-cat into serial or parallell clusters for MW-production units, but that's were it ends as long as he keeps the secret for himself.
The many hour tests performed both in Bologna and in Sweden was closely monitored by the two Swedish Scientists from the prestigious Swedish University of Uppsala, and they did not fail in their absolutely correct scientifically performed observation. They did not leave anything out. Everything, from the feed values coming from the grid to the heat production, was scrutinized, and on all occasions they came to the simple conclusion that no other explanation than a nuclear reaction of sorts could possibly be the source. You have to keep in mind that many times when the input from the grid was disconnected, the reactors actually showed remarkable increases in heat production for several hours.
What makes you doubt the conclusions made by the Swedish nuclear physiscists? Do you really think they missed something? You should know that one of the scientists was a great sceptic to anything relating to LENR at that time in 2010 and to Andrea Rossi in particular, in fact, besides being known in the academic circles as a merited nuclear scientist he is also well known here in Sweden to be chairman in an organization called The Sceptics. Myself any many others here in Sweden expected him to return triumphant in his success in debunking Andreas Rossi. So he actually went down to Bologna to expose Andrea Rossi, but instead to his great surprise returned to Sweden as a convinced person.
The tests and observations performed by the Swedish scientists was impeccable executed, and as far as Andrea Rossi was concerned, he did not have any more time to spend on public evaluations. The calculated time needed to accomplish his production plans before anybody else got ahead of him was short and since he did not want to share his secret with anyone, he was confined to the limitations of such a decision.
Here, MileHigh, is a fork in the road. Either you decide to believe the Swedish scientists by accepting the validity of their observations, or you don't.
Observing the pecularities in the Andrea Rossi project from this angle explains perfectly his course of actions, since he in such case is fully aware of the fact that he in due time will be totally run over by much more scientificly backed up competitors, who most likely will get the correct patents granted in regard to the physics behind the LENR process, which shortly therafter will get him engaged in a long, futile and expensive court process against his superiors.
He is probably also fully aware that he never will get any patents granted based on his somewhat layman-like assumptions about whats going on in the LENR process.
In short, Andrea Rossi just want to have a fair share of something that he feels rightly belong to him, and this is the only way for him to do it without disclosing the secret to anyone. As he says himself: This is a war going on, with enemies on several levels.
Standing in the line with a smile,
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on June 02, 2012, 09:50:25 PM
Observing the peculiarities in the Andrea Rossi project from this angle explains perfectly his course of action, since he in such case is fully aware of the fact that he in due time will be totally run over by much more scientifically backed up competitors, who most likely will get the correct patents granted in regard to the physics behind the LENR process, which shortly therafter will get him engaged in a long, futile and expensive court process against his superiors.
He is probably also fully aware that he never will get any patents granted based on his somewhat layman-like assumptions about whats going on in the LENR process. In short, Andrea Rossi just want to have a fair share of something that he feels rightly belong to him, and this is the only way for him to do it without disclosing the secret to anyone. As he says himself: This is a war going on, with enemies on several levels.
Standing in the line with a smile,
My dear Gwandau,
I hope, sincerely, that there will be no effective patents on LENR technologies once these are getting sold. But IF there are, then I also sincerely believe that the advantage must go to Rossi. Without his contribution we would never have got LENR to that megawatt level. And whether that knowledge be intuitive or learned - the fact is that it took Rossi's experimental genius to expose this - and no-one else's. For this I think we're all indebted. With good reason.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Rosemary,
I wish the best for the future of the Andrea Rossi revolution, and it would be wonderful if the world acknowledged his patent applications as fully valid scientific descriptions,
but as long as Germany declines his applications, which they have done because of the halting scientific context in the applications, he will continue to be vulnerable to his far
more experienced competitiors the very moment his technology get's into the open. Germany and the other european countries say they can't grant a patent that are referring to a process that is not validated within the contemporary accepted scientific area of knowledge, and the rest of the european countries will obediently follow Germany. The patent he got granted in Italy is unfortunately not considered as carrying the weight of an internationallly valid scientific patent.
So due to the novelty of his discovery, he has got into a "Moment 22"-like situation where old scientific facts are opposing his findings, obstructing his way to a world patent.
Hopefully he will find a way around this problem, but since he refuses to share all parameters behind his E-cat with anyone, he will have to do the fight against his competitors
on uneven terms when he finally releases his product. Already guys like Piantelli are claiming the rights to the LENR process in several patent applications, based upon the well known facts that Piantelli did LENR research long before Andrea Rossi.
We can only hope that the world is going fair upon the fate of Andrea Rossi, but if not, it's not the first time we will experience injustice executed openly.
Whatever happens, LENR is here to stay, and it's a great adventure to follow all this in a paradigm shifting world that soon are going to take a completetely new direction.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
You mentioned how the Swedish nuclear physicists became converts to Rossi's research and I agree that is very interesting. I can't really comment further, I am not going to do research into their findings, etc. I only have so much bandwidth to devote to this.
So even though you are convinced because of this information, I am still looking towards Rossi and his derivatives for convincing definitive proof that thee is a working fully functional reactor. Factoring in Rossi's behaviour and factoring in the track record in the free energy realm, for me this overrides the comments from the credible Swedish nuclear physicists. It's just the way I think and evaluate situations.
Just to give it some context, do you ever read Sterling Allen's pesn dot com site? Almost everything that is written up on his site is junk. Almost nothing ever comes to fruition. It's like a place to expose free energy con artists much more than it is a place to promote emerging free energy technologies. Recently there was a South African "company" that claimed that they had a free energy cliche, the good old batteries driving a motor driving a generator which then outputs excess power as free energy and at the same time recharges the batteries. That's the oldest cliche in the book. They contacted Sterling and stated that they had it now and it was real. Sterling flew to South Africa. The whole thing was a pathetic joke, a sham, and the company is not delivering units to anybody and I predict they never will. Mark Dansie showed up to make some serious measurements and they would not even let him inside the building. This nonsense happens all the time. We are seeing the same thing right now with the magic buoyancy device that tricks gravity and Mother Nature. Sure.
So, we can certainly agree that at least I myself have to wait for more definitive results from Rossi and the other contenders. Only the real thing will satisfy me and I can smell bullshit from a mile away.
MileHigh
@MH:.... that's what you get for standing downwind !!
Quote from: Gwandau on June 03, 2012, 06:41:55 AM
Rosemary,
I wish the best for the future of the Andrea Rossi revolution, and it would be wonderful if the world acknowledged his patent applications as fully valid scientific descriptions, but as long as Germany declines his applications, which they have done because of the halting scientific context in the applications, he will continue to be vulnerable to his far more experienced competitiors the very moment his technology get's into the open. Germany and the other european countries say they can't grant a patent that are referring to a process that is not validated within the contemporary accepted scientific area of knowledge, and the rest of the european countries will obediently follow Germany. The patent he got granted in Italy is unfortunately not considered as carrying the weight of an internationallly valid scientific patent.
So due to the novelty of his discovery, he has got into a "Moment 22"-like situation where old scientific facts are opposing his findings, obstructing his way to a world patent. Hopefully he will find a way around this problem, but since he refuses to share all parameters behind his E-cat with anyone, he will have to do the fight against his competitors on uneven terms when he finally releases his product. Already guys like Piantelli are claiming the rights to the LENR process in several patent applications, based upon the well known facts that Piantelli did LENR research long before Andrea Rossi.
We can only hope that the world is going fair upon the fate of Andrea Rossi, but if not, it's not the first time we will experience injustice executed openly. Whatever happens, LENR is here to stay, and it's a great adventure to follow all this in a paradigm shifting world that soon are going to take a completetely new direction.
Gwandau
Hello Gwandau,
I simply don't understand this at all. In the first instance - after the granting of a provisional patent which is usually managed in one's country of origin - the requirement is to lodge a patent in the International Patenting office in Geneva. Certainly as I was given to understand this process. The patent which must be application orientated - is then published to address 'prior art' claims. Not one sentence of 'theory' needs be included. But all aspects of the patent must then be revealed as this is the basis of the protection that patents offer. So. Why then is Rossi withholding information? If this then precludes protection from those patents? It simply doesn't add up. None of it.
Then. I do not personally care if there are patenting rights or not. Frankly. I believe his units will sell like hot cakes and that no competitor will be able to elbow in effectively, until they've invested as he has done, in sophisticated production. By then his product will be established... and he'll automatically get the edge that he deserves. Defkalion - I suspect - are under specific contractual agreement. They are probably only effective competitors if they keep the technology 'secret' which would be in terms of that non disclosure agreement that Rossi would have asked for. And if they don't - then they'll have to cough up more than just a licensing fee. And again. This is only what I 'suspect'. Which is why they have to keep their little black box 'tamper free'. Hence the requirement that it 'implode' should the box be opened for reverse engineering purposes. And that 'implosion' potential is PRECISELY why I, for one, would NEVER buy from them.
Compliance to standard theory has never been a requirement for any patenting with the entire exception, surprisingly, of 'cold fusion'. This was the excessive knee jerk reaction to the threat of 'cold fusion' that was also orchestrated by Dr Vest. And what he did was suggest that our patent offices could be subject to abuse from 'pathological science' and their 'pathological' scientists. But even that limitation was easily exceeded courtesy renaming 'cold fusion' 'LENR'. I believe also that the European offices precluded 'perpetual motion' machines - some time back now. Possibly around 1900 or thereby.
So. No amount of 'theory' is required. Not according to my own advices - which, admittedly - are a decade old by now. And frankly, none of this matters. When Rossi's technology is available - and subject to its being reasonably reverse 'engineerable' (terrible word... :o )then those that want to can 'buy'. And those that don't - can make. And those that can both make and sell - then they may or may not pay a small percentage of their profit to Rossi. That depends on the patent. It will be interesting. My own hope is that Rossi makes himself a fortune. He well deserves this. Together with our accolades.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 03, 2012, 09:09:08 PM
@MH:.... that's what you get for standing downwind !!
Then I suspect that poor MileHigh's NOSE is upwind from your own address. And that stench that fills his nose - is the sad decay of your arguments that are rotting from want of some vital logic.
Rosie Pose
Here's MileHigh's first reference...
Quote from: MileHigh on June 03, 2012, 02:12:21 PM
So, we can certainly agree that at least I myself have to wait for more definitive results from Rossi and the other contenders. Only the real thing will satisfy me and I can smell bullshit from a mile away.
MileHigh
Not a single over glorifying post for today?!!!
How disappointing… :'(
Tinu
@Everyone:
I read an article today with the latest news on the E-Cat's progress. The following are excerpts from this article:
"Andrea Rossi stated in the email that the new high temperature E-Cat â€" that can produce 600 degree steam with a COP of 6 â€" has been operating continuously for 40 days. That’s right, 40 days! Forty!
Forget 18 hour tests like the one Dr. Levi performed in 2011. This test has lasted so far for 960 (nine hundred and sixty) hours, and is planned to last at least 90 days. The E-Cat has been operating non-stop producing 600 degree steam. This is big news. It should be on the front page of every newspaper in the nation, and being discussed on every news network. It means that the solution to the energy crisis is here. There is no further need for ridiculous carbon trading schemes that destroy jobs, no more need to fund hot fusion research (that has never obtained even a COP of 1.1 with billions of dollars in funding), and no need to put millions of dollars into conventional alternative energy technologies. Wind, solar, hydroelectric, geothermal, and other energy technologies are about to be obsolete. Fossil fuels are going to be considered worse than obsolete. They will belong in the fossil fuel age, not the nickel age."
For the full article, here's the link:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/06/rossi-provides-more-information-on-high-temperature-e-cat-test/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/06/rossi-provides-more-information-on-high-temperature-e-cat-test/)
Best Regards,
Chess
All:
Rossi is supposed to release some hard data from the testing that he is doing right now within a month or two. That would be very much welcomed by all and I look forward to seeing it.
There are already about 150 comments posted after that article. The comments are much more important to read as compared to the article itself. A wise person would read all of the comments to get a more balanced viewpoint by getting differing opinions.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 06, 2012, 02:41:19 AM
All:
Rossi is supposed to release some hard data from the testing that he is doing right now within a month or two. That would be very much welcomed by all and I look forward to seeing it.
what are the odds you will keep quiet 'till then?
Quote from: MileHigh on June 06, 2012, 02:41:19 AM
There are already about 150 comments posted after that article. The comments are much more important to read as compared to the article itself. A wise person would read all of the comments to get a more balanced viewpoint by getting differing opinions.
MileHigh
the comments are irrelevant. comments don't heat a house or power turbines... ::) those opinions you speak of are, to paraphrase mark twain, "are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing."
@ everybody
I just love this thread!
The daily routine of entering here getting updated is both inspiring and entertaining.
Thank you Chessnyt for keeping the LENR flag high, your input is absolutely vital to this thread of yours.
And thank you dear Rosemary for balancing up the somewhat boring dryness of male argumentation dominating our discussions,
it is quite beneficial for many of the guys here who are obsviously not used to such interaction within the scientific field.
And thank you MileHigh for having been such a reliable sceptic up to now, the constructive critiscism of late has a balancing effect that is highly welcome.
(Although there seems to be some signs of you reholstering your guns in late posts, I am sure they are still loaded and ready.)
Whatever position we might have decided to take on this intriguing jouney towards the E-cat disclosure, we can all agree on one single point:
IT'S GREAT FUN!
Gwandau
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on June 04, 2012, 12:08:40 AM
Hello Gwandau,
I simply don't understand this at all. In the first instance - after the granting of a provisional patent which is usually managed in one's country of origin - the requirement is to lodge a patent in the International Patenting office in Geneva. Certainly as I was given to understand this process. The patent which must be application orientated - is then published to address 'prior art' claims. Not one sentence of 'theory' needs be included. But all aspects of the patent must then be revealed as this is the basis of the protection that patents offer. So. Why then is Rossi withholding information? If this then precludes protection from those patents? It simply doesn't add up. None of it.
Then. I do not personally care if there are patenting rights or not. Frankly. I believe his units will sell like hot cakes and that no competitor will be able to elbow in effectively, until they've invested as he has done, in sophisticated production. By then his product will be established... and he'll automatically get the edge that he deserves. Defkalion - I suspect - are under specific contractual agreement. They are probably only effective competitors if they keep the technology 'secret' which would be in terms of that non disclosure agreement that Rossi would have asked for. And if they don't - then they'll have to cough up more than just a licensing fee. And again. This is only what I 'suspect'. Which is why they have to keep their little black box 'tamper free'. Hence the requirement that it 'implode' should the box be opened for reverse engineering purposes. And that 'implosion' potential is PRECISELY why I, for one, would NEVER buy from them.
Compliance to standard theory has never been a requirement for any patenting with the entire exception, surprisingly, of 'cold fusion'. This was the excessive knee jerk reaction to the threat of 'cold fusion' that was also orchestrated by Dr Vest. And what he did was suggest that our patent offices could be subject to abuse from 'pathological science' and their 'pathological' scientists. But even that limitation was easily exceeded courtesy renaming 'cold fusion' 'LENR'. I believe also that the European offices precluded 'perpetual motion' machines - some time back now. Possibly around 1900 or thereby.
So. No amount of 'theory' is required. Not according to my own advices - which, admittedly - are a decade old by now. And frankly, none of this matters. When Rossi's technology is available - and subject to its being reasonably reverse 'engineerable' (terrible word... :o )then those that want to can 'buy'. And those that don't - can make. And those that can both make and sell - then they may or may not pay a small percentage of their profit to Rossi. That depends on the patent. It will be interesting. My own hope is that Rossi makes himself a fortune. He well deserves this. Together with our accolades.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Dear Rosemary,
As long as Andrea Rossi keeps for himself the vital clues to the form and function of his triggering catalyzer for the high LENR efficiency of his E-cat,
he will continue to be denied due to the fact that the heat generating process referred to in the patent application is deviating from known scientific standards.
I am afraid this combination of reference to non validated physics behind the process in combination with an obvious shortage of disclosed parameters makes it all end up in a halting patent application,
no matter what the ordinary criteria for patent applications are.
As I understand it, there still are problems associated with getting granted patent applications that are referring to processes outside the standard model, even if the connection
to the reasons for denial is indirect.
Below is an excert from his patent application, clearly referring to hitherto unknown nuclear processes,
which I am sure will carry effect upon the handling of the application, no matter how application oriented the criteria for the patents are:
Quote
Abstract: A method and apparatus for carrying out highly efficient exothermal reaction between nickel and hydrogen
atoms in a tube, preferably, though not necessary, a metal tube filled by a nickel powder and heated to a high temperature,
preferably, though not necessary, from 150 to 5000C are herein disclosed.
In the inventive apparatus, hydrogen is injected into the metal tube containing a highly pressurized nickel powder having a pressure,
preferably though not necessarily, from 2 to 20 bars.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
When the abstract has two major flaws in it it's not very confidence inspiring at all. It makes it look like the whole patent application was thrown together in a rush.
The melting point of nickel 1453 C so what the hell is the patent application saying when it says, "150 to 5000C."
There is no such thing as "highly pressurized nickel powder." I realize that this is just a simple mistake and they really mean to say, "nickel powder in highly pressurized hydrogen gas," but it's an abstract for a patent application after all.
I will just repeat that it would be well worth it to read all of the comments in the previously linked article in order to understand other people's opinions.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
On the contrary, this fits perfectly with the Andrea Rossi I have come to know.
Just like everything else in connection with the E-cat, Andrea Rossi have not asked
for any professional help in getting the english version of the application formulated.
This is a very typical expression of his obstinacy, creating the english version himself,
based upon his rather poor english.
Regarding the extreme span of values presented, this again is typical for a person that
by all means wants to keep anyone as far as possible from the secret.
So from my point of view the temperature span described as well as hydrogen pressure
all just reinforces my understanding that Andrea Rossi is extremely afraid to disclose
any information that may lead to the exposure of his secret parameters.
Just as many other inventors have realized , presenting a patent application often equals
an exposure that may actually be counteractive to the progress of production and marketing.
Conclusively, this sounds just as I expect Andrea Rossi to act.
Gwandau
Quote from: MileHigh on June 06, 2012, 06:32:22 PM
I will just repeat that it would be well worth it to read all of the comments in the previously linked article in order to understand other people's opinions.
MileHigh
@MileHigh:
I looked at the comment section of the latest article I posted and here is the newest comment left:
"I think there are some people who have been manipulated by the propaganda and lies spread about Rossi by certain competitors. In particular, one well known personality went out of his way to attack Rossi, and wrote countless stories trying to convince the world that the E-Cat did not work. He wrote articles with titles like, “Ten E-Cat tests and ten failures†and repetitively tried to convince the world that Andrea Rossi was a fraudster, and the E-Cat was a hoax. He dismissed the qualifications and experience of those several scientists who participated in the tests, made statements that were flat out scientifically wrong (such as trying to use input power TWICE), and even got “personal†by posting pictures of Rossi’s home.
Other cynics/skeptics followed his lead, and continued to attack Rossi. They spread lies and misinformation. The propaganda spread far and wide that somehow the tests of the E-Cat were inconclusive, did not determine anything, and showed the E-Cat did not work.
However, the opposite was true. The test proved the E-Cat was producing huge amounts of excess power. Jed Rothwell on the Vortex L site wrote hundreds of essays refuting the lies that were being told, and pointing out how the tests were successful."Now I'm glad you're paying attention to these comments as you suggested. It sure helps to see things in a clearer light like the comment above does. There are very worthy comments posted there ;)
Regards,
Chess
Chess:
There were two comments that I noticed that I thought were particularly interesting. Here is the first:
Robert Mockan on June 5, 2012 at 3:08 pm More lead shielding? Indicating more radiation?
10KW to 20KW thermal power from 1.5 gram catalyst?
It is difficult to convey just how small a volume that is. Given the density of nickel, 1.5 grams is about the size of a BB shot pellet. Or a pea.
Apply 10 KW to that volume and it would not just melt, but start to vaporize, in just a few seconds.
The only possible way Rossi could be preventing the catalyst from melting is if it is a thin film applied to a heat conducting fin, like a copper sheet, being cooled on the other side so the temperature does not exceed 600 C. The lead shielding would need to enclose the entire reaction area. Since lead melts at 328 C, that also means the lead must be kept away from the 600 C reaction.
I can see some interesting engineering problems if one wants to minimize the reactor weight. Lead is heavy.
I have always wondered myself about how one would extract 10 kilowatts continuous production of heat from something as small as a thimble. It is a very complicated engineering problem and I honestly don't get a sense that those individual reactors in the one-megawatt container had any technology to deal with this issue. If you assume that the reactor is actually the size of a thimble, then you need a very complex control system to extract heat from it because with one hiccup lasting a fraction of a second the nickel powder would melt and the reactor would be dead.
It seemed that there were just regular water hoses connected to individual reactors in an almost casual manner. Nobody remarked about hearing a high-speed motor and seeing a sophisticated control system for each individual reactor. It felt like each reactor was like some benign little pod right out of Invasion of the Body Snatchers as they sat on shelves individually wrapped in thermal blankets.
It all just doesn't smell right, but I am willing to wait.
None the less, here is an interesting follow-up comment from someone:
Edwin Crook on June 5, 2012 at 5:02 pm I suspect that it is not the nickel that gets hot. If the reaction in (or on the surface of) the nickel gives out gamma rays and the some other substance absorbs them, it is the other substance that is getting hot.
So who knows. If the comment above is true, then all of the people that continuously shout "The device doesn't produce any radiation!" will have red faces. I would guess that if you were exposed to say 700 watts of gamma radiation flux for 10 seconds you would die. I must stress it's just a guess.
Of course one of the mysteries is that nobody actually knows the mechanism for the heat extraction from an E-Cat, do they? You would think that by now Rossi would say how that is being done. Standard disclaimer, I don't know all of the details in the storyline.
MileHigh
Here is another pair of posts that I also found interesting:
Pekka Janhunen (http://www.electric-sailing.fi) on June 5, 2012 at 5:40 am I submitted the following to JONP:
“Dear Andrea Rossi,
Can you help: I cannot get the numbers given in Hank Mills’ recent email interview at e-catworld.com to match. The interview describes 90 days (expected) operation at 10 kW with 1.5 grams of nickel. This translates to 34 MeV per nickel atom. This is somewhat more than what can be liberated by turning 62Ni or 64Ni to copper, even if all the nickel would turn to copper. Can you clarify, I suspect that some of these numbers or assumptions are wrong?â€
---- Pekka Janhunen (http://www.electric-sailing.fi) on June 6, 2012 at 11:01 am Now Rossi effectively confirmed at JONP that the produced energy is between 30 and 60 MeV per original nickel atom. Such high energy production only appears possible if there is a catalytic fusion-fission cycle also involved, probably operating between Ni60 and Cu63, that turns protons into He4 without consuming the metal. Maybe that’s why it’s called E-cat.
So what's interesting here is that it would take ALL of the nickel to produce the claimed amount of energy over six months and there will apparently be a shortfall of energy unless there is a secondary fusion-fission reaction taking place?
They never have stated that all of the nickel would be consumed in six months and that's counter-intuitive because I think that most people at this point are assuming that you need mostly nickel powder inside the reaction chamber to "sustain the magic."
I don't know I am just speculating, but one more time, it just doesn't smell right to me. So I wait.
MileHigh
@Everyone:
To help clear up the fuel consumption issue a little, here's a recent question and answer session (where Rossi answers) that addresses this:
Q: Does it start with the same time of the the “first†ecat or is it more faster to began to work?
A: Faster
Q: Does it uses the same quantity of Ni/H?
A: Less
Q: Do you think it still can work for 6 month with one recharge or the new version “burns†NI/H faster?
A: Yes
(link to full article):
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-reliable-stability-at-600-c-very-close/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/05/rossi-reliable-stability-at-600-c-very-close/)
Quote from: MileHigh on June 06, 2012, 08:54:59 PM
I would guess that if you were exposed to say 700 watts of gamma radiation flux for 10 seconds you would die. I must stress it's just a guess.
Rossi has been working in close proximity to these E-Cat units for over two years now and he is not dead. The scare tactic "it might be producing deadly levels of radiation" is simply an attempt to raise saftey concerns despite the fact that EVERYONE here is fully aware that U.L. would not grant approval for the device to be sold to the public if this were the case. So come on now. Nobody's falling for the "I'm buying Chernobyl...oh my gawd!" so give it a rest.
Really ::)
Chess
Chess:
Those interviews are strange. They are really and truly low-value questions being posed apparently by people that have very little technical background. The answers by Rossi are almost always single-word. It's frustrating to read that stuff. They are "dumbo" questions that are technically immature. I know that it's not your "fault" you are just offering the service to the readers of providing them with information. They are not serious interviews, and that also adds to the aura of something being amiss.
QuoteQ: Does it start with the same time of the the “first†ecat or is it more faster to began to work?
A: Faster
That sounds like a question and answer session between two five-year-olds about how to operate an Easy Bake oven!
For the radiation example, that was just a hypothetical example to make a point, it was not about the E-Cat itself. You and others have praised the E-Cat over and over and make it sound like it is benign like apple pie.
However, if it really is a device that is radiating a 10 kilowatt flux of deadly Gamma radiation and they use a lead lining to capture the heat - well that's not such a benign device, is it? Plus the simple fact is that every layer of lead of a certain thickness will reduce the emitted radiation by a certain percentage, and with enough lead it can be made perfectly safe - but it will still be emitting low levels of Gamma radiation. Not such a pleasant fact in the context of this day and age. You have a toddler and your wife is pregnant, do you like knowing that there is a very low and safe level of Gamma radiation being emitted by your new home furnace? I think not.
Again, this is a purely academic discussion for the sake of interest. I have no idea how any variant of the E-Cat works. Realistically, from what I understand, allegedly only Rossi (and one must assume an inner circle) knows how an E-Cat works. Also, I am just talking about the mechanics of the heat production and extraction here.
MileHigh
Howdy members and guests,
Has anyone actually went to the ECAT web site ..... http://ecat.com/
That was first created in 1994 .... http://whois.domaintools.com/ecat.com
Looked at the "FINE PRINT" in the "TERMS and CONDITIONS" bottom tab ..... http://ecat.com/terms-conditions :o
"TERMS & CONDITIONS"
ACCEPTANCE OF TERMS
Editing, Deleting and Modification
Accuracy, Completeness and Timeliness of Information **
LICENSE AND SITE ACCESS
PRODUCT PRICING & DESCRIPTIONS **
LINKs & FRAMINGS
DISCLAIMERS *
CORPORATE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS **
Confidentiality
NON-ASSIGNMENT OF RIGHTS
NON-Waiver **
Severability of Terms
Entire Agreement
GOVERNING LAW
___________________________________________________________________________________
** - Special Note ::)
FTC
???
MileHigh,
many people seems to have confused the minor gamma emission detected in the reactor of the e-cat with the main process that produces the actual heat.
This confusion is due to the assumption that the LENR process just is a low energy version of standard fusion physics.
It is not. LENR is not fusion in the traditional context. It is a lot more to LENR than just a bleak low temperature copy of hot fusion.
Recently in a video interview when asked about whether the E-Cat was a ‘cold fusion’ technology he said,
“we have found traces of fusion because we have found 511 kev gamma rays at the output, which is the emission of a positron and an electron,
and a positron is the product of a proton turning into a neutron, so we have some kind of fusion inside, but I do not think this is the main
energy source.â€
"...but I do not think this is the main energy source." You see, even Andrea Rossi himself does not really know exactly what is going on inside the E-cat.
According to the findings of other LENR researchers there are indications that EM generated resonance effects within the crystal lattice of the nickel
are creating an interaction with hydrogen not yet fully explained, and contrary to the standard model fusion, the energy types of radiation emitted
during the E-cat LENR reaction seems to be composed of several different levels of energy emitted even prior to the absorbtion of the reactor walls and lead shielding.
So as far as I understand it, the gamma ray emission is only a minor secondary effect in the exoterm reaction of the e-cat.
Everything concerning LENR indicates this is new ground being entered, old school will have to add a totally new and novel area of knowledge into the nuclear model.
Arthur C. Clark describes the situation of the confrontation between the old and the new very well:
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that
something is possible he is almost certainly right.
When he states that something is impossible he is very
probably wrong" [Clark's First Law]
As I have emphasized before, Andrea Rossi is extremely careful not to expose anything that might lead to an conclusion of what is going on within the reactor.
He is doing this by leaving out vital information to such a degree that it unfortunately keeps encouraging the sceptics as well as undermines
his possibilities to get an international patent. That is the price he has to pay to keep the secret.
Gwandau
@Everyone:
Another very interesting article regarding the future repercussions of the current media blackout concerning LENR technology (as well as the E-Cat making it to market) was published yesterday. The author draws very similar conclusions as the ones I posted earlier in this thread. Here's some excerpts:
"As these various milestones have emerged, in some ways resembling a drama of the century, we at PES Network, and many others in the alternative media, have been right there to cover them for the alternative community who knows better than to expect the mainstream media to be keyed into things of such significance that would make their paymasters obsolete.
The longer you wait to weigh in on this, the more irrelevant you are going to prove yourself to be when the population at large finally gets wind of these developments and realizes that the mainstream media are total sell-outs to the powers that be. Don't wonder why people are turning to alternative media. It's no mystery to me. I benefit from their defection. Their traffic is what helps me stay in business." -- Sterling Allan
Here's the link:
http://pesn.com/2012/06/06/9602103_Why_doesnt_Utah_media_cover_latest_cold_fusion_developments/ (http://pesn.com/2012/06/06/9602103_Why_doesnt_Utah_media_cover_latest_cold_fusion_developments/)
The article is actually a copy of a letter sent to journalists working in the state of Utah.
Just as I also predicted earlier, the mainstream media is getting ready for its ride around the rim of the drain hole. After all, it's not terribly difficult to decide which is more practical. The partial truth in carefully edited releases or the entire truth. You be the judges of which is more desireable.
Regards,
Chess
@Milehigh,you need to ask this question,is there a scientific
examination of heating effects of gamma radiation on lead.Theres a lot of information
on shielding of gamma radiation by lead,calculations of how thick a sheet of lead to block a given amount of
gamma radiation
but no mention of heating effects at all,that's very strange.I have done a long search in this area
and have found nothing relating to heating effects of lead due to gamma radiation.The e-cat heats water
thru the alleged absorption of gamma rays from the nickel reaction by the lead shield into heat, this came from Rossi,this is at the core of how the E-cat transfers heat.If the heating of lead by gamma rays does not occur then Rossi is a liar,its a con in my book anyway,too many bad things about this guy.
Wow, the first search for "Gamma ray heat"
The process of ionization, which gamma rays are capable of inducing in all materials, is almost always accompanied by secondary processes of excitation in which electrons are excited within atoms, but the electrons are not removed from the atoms. In general, most of the energy transferred to electrons by ionization ends up as kinetic energy of the electron and is lost mostly and ultimately in the form of heat, as is much of the energy of excitation. Thus the direct conversion of gamma energy to electric current is very inefficient. However, it is possible to convert heat to electricity. In fact, when nuclear power plants operate, a small, but not insignificant, portion of the power generated comes from heat generated by the decay of the radioactive fission products that build up in the fuel. The decay radiations include primarily beta particles and gamma rays, both of which produce heat. This heat adds to the fission heat that is used to convert water to steam to drive the turbine/generators. Also, electricity can be generated from heat through the use of thermoelectric generators (e.g., a series of thermocouples, called a thermopile, in contact with a heat source), which have been around for decades and have been used with a variety of heat sources.
cheappower2012,
What makes you post something like this?
Did you honestly fail to get any search hits concerning heat produced by gamma rays?
Or who are you?
I did just as lumen and got the hits depicted below in my first search attempt.
But is the heating of the lead by gamma rays really the mechanism by which Rossi's reactor gets hot? At one point he made the statement that it was, you may recall.
But.... for something to be able to heat water/steam to 600 degrees C by conduction/convection, that something needs to be that hot at least. And if you stop feeding it water to heat, it will get _much_ hotter than that. Is this not right?
What is the melting point of lead? Where is the evidence for a quantity of lead, heated to 600 degrees C, in anything that Rossi has shown? How can a quantity of 600 degree lead--- or much hotter lead, through a secondary heat exchanger--- heat up water effectively?
How can 1.5 grams of nickel powder heat up something to over 600 degrees C and transfer that heat effectively to water/steam, using some 600 degree hot lead as the gamma absorber to turn the high-frequency gamma radiation into lower-frequency heat? At a rate of 10 kW?
Nowhere, no way, in none of Rossi's plumbing, has there ever been any evidence of molten lead shielding, reservoirs, or heat exchangers using molten lead.
TinselKoala:
Even though you are right on all accounts, you are making many assumptions,
Just because the reaction can be controlled to 600C does not mean you would be getting this in a home unit!
Even in a Fission reaction much of the core heating is caused by gamma rays absorbed in the core itself, only those emitted near the surface and emitted outward are able to leave the core. One should calculate surface area only for percentage of emission.
When he said the heat was caused by gamma ray absorption, I believe everyone thought into the lead shield and not the core which does most of the absorption.
So then the home units, which we have seen almost entirely stripped down, are working on a different principle? All the lead in those units is on the outside, comprising the shielding.
And the large, "ottoman" unit that was disassembled all the way down to the heat exchanger.... there was no reservoir of molten lead in there, just the external shielding. Different principle?
And the "1 MW" plant... which actually didn't even reach half that figure, and was composed of a bunch of the ottoman units.... a different principle than the current production line?
Rossi said that the heat is produced when gammas are absorbed in the lead. Is there other lead somewhere in his current design?
I am making assumptions, sure. You can help clear up some of these assumptions. Could you describe to me, just a sketch will do, of some kind of design that has a gram and a half of powder, emitting whatever, heating up some kind of heat exchange system that will then produce 600 degree C steam, at a rate of 10 or 20 kW? I don't care how the power is generated.... I just want to see somebody tell me how to get that much power OUT of that small mass, however it's distributed by volume, and put it INTO a flow of 600 degree steam at a rate of 10 kW. Be sure to include the use of lead as the heat source for the steam heating, however the lead itself is caused to heat up.
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 08, 2012, 04:23:40 PM
I am making assumptions, sure.
that's no surprise... ::)
Guys,
please do not get stuck on the idea of gamma rays and led absorbers.
Instead, let's widen our area of alternatives a bit, especially since Andrea Rossi himself have indicated in a recent interview that the gamma
emission seems to be a secondary product, and that the main heat production must to be due to other things happening within the reactor core.
When it comes to nuclear science, Andrea Rossi knows no more than you and me.
What on earth makes you think that he knows anything at all about the nuclear physics behind the e-cat heat?
He cannot possibly know anything. He does not have the proper knowledge to even make an assumption.
Andrea Rossi just know how to get the heat production going, and how to stop it, thats all.
He is a very ingenious engineer, but not a nuclear scientist. What he suggests in interviews about the physics behind it are no more
substantial than at best guesses founded upon his limited knowledge.
Everything points in the direction that the heat produced by the e-cat has very little to do with the small amount of gamma ray emission
detected in and around the e-cat. The improperly small amount of lead used for shielding clearly indicates this.
There is obviously something else happening connected to the process where the created positrons meets the electrons, besides the gamma emission.
Another heat source has to be involved in the LENR process, just as Andrea Rossi himself have suggested.
George Chabot Professor Emeritus of Radiological Sciences; A.B., Harvard University; M.S., Harvard School of Public Health; Ph.D., University of Lowell
(C.H.P.), gives us the following information about the problems with heat generation through gamma emission:
"Gamma radiation is generally not a good choice for thermoelectric applications because the gamma radiation is very penetrating, and large masses of material may be necessary to absorb most of the energy, likely making for an inefficient arrangement for concentrated heat production and thermoelectric generation. In addition, large-intensity gamma sources may require more engineering safeguards and controls in their preparation and handling than do other radiation sources."
I have suggested this to be the case several times, but no one seems to grasp the facts:
10KW heat production through gamma rays hitting the small amount of lead shielding that would fit into and/or around the reactor is impossible.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on June 06, 2012, 02:23:40 PM
@ everybody
I just love this thread!
The daily routine of entering here getting updated is both inspiring and entertaining.
Thank you Chessnyt for keeping the LENR flag high, your input is absolutely vital to this thread of yours.
And thank you dear Rosemary for balancing up the somewhat boring dryness of male argumentation dominating our discussions,
it is quite beneficial for many of the guys here who are obsviously not used to such interaction within the scientific field.
And thank you MileHigh for having been such a reliable sceptic up to now, the constructive critiscism of late has a balancing effect that is highly welcome.
(Although there seems to be some signs of you reholstering your guns in late posts, I am sure they are still loaded and ready.)
Whatever position we might have decided to take on this intriguing jouney towards the E-cat disclosure, we can all agree on one single point:
IT'S GREAT FUN!
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
You are very welcome. I count it both a pleasure and an honor to help spread the good news of this emerging revolutionary new energy source. After all, the real work is being performed by Andrea Rossi and those involved in the refinement process of LENR in practical applications.
@Everyone:
The skeptopaths and disinformation agents are now failing more miserably than ever with their agenda to destroy this new technology before it even hits the market. Just the opposite is now occurring.
Instead of steering people away by the droves with false allegations, hysterical unfounded safety concerns and misleading assumptions, people are lining up to get their's early! I have just learned that the total of pre-ordered E-Cats has nearly reached five-hundred-thousand so far. So with 1/2 a million people pre-ordering Rossi's E-Cat, it's going to be tough to get ALL of these people to be silent once they start using their E-Cats personally. Who needs to advertise when the customers are already lining up?
I believe the real challenge for Andrea Rossi now is to somehow keep up with the G R O W I N G demand. This guy is going to be sold out of E-Cats before they even have a chance to hit the stores! I'm thinking about pre-ordering more!!! SERIOUSLY!
Best Regards,
Chess
TinselKoala:
"I don't care how the power is generated.... I just want to see somebody tell me how to get that much power OUT of that small mass, however it's distributed by volume, and put it INTO a flow of 600 degree steam at a rate of 10 kW"
If you don't care how the power is generated and just need to see 10kw coming from a tiny source, I guess I could put two carbon electrodes in a small water cooled container and connect my TIG welder, I estimate about 20kw output but you won't see much after watching it run for a while.
I'm glad I signed up early for my units!
@lumen: gwandau gets it. Too bad you don't. Rossi's statements are incompatible with reality. This is separate from the issue of whether or not his reactor works.... what seems certain is that IF it works, it is not working the way he seems to be trying to make us believe it works.
Rossi has said many times that the device makes gammas and that the heat is produced by these gammas being absorbed in lead shielding, within and outside the reactor, and that the water is then heated by the lead. But this seems incompatible with other things he's said and also with the actual designs of the reactors we know about.
And of course your TIG welder is not a _source_ of power, it is a mechanism for dissipating power, and when you attempt to dissipate that much power in that small a space.... thank you for making my point for me... you melt metals, even very refractory ones like tungsten.
@TinselKoala:
First of all, you're not going to get the details you're looking for by trying to trick Rossi into a premature disclosure of his device. I guarantee you this will not work. He has said all along that parts of his reactor will remain a secret until his patents have been awarded/granted him. Since you don't have all the information (or even ANY of the critical information) you can guess, assume and insinuate all you want to but he's outsmarted his competition and you're no exception.
Secondly, all people are REALLY going to care about is that it works (because most people are not scientists), it saves them money on energy costs, and that it's safe to use. The safety issue is neatly taken care of by U.L. because once they grant the certification(s) needed by Rossi, it will be safe for use in any public place or home. U.L. has NEVER certified ANY device that has injured the public through radiation exposure (just in case you're trying to imply this).
And lastly, 1/2 a million people are not going to listen to you as evidenced by their own actions in pre-ordering Rossi's E-Cat (Thank God). So maybe you can sell your wares elsewhere as more people have pre-ordered this product than have even read this thread.
Better luck next time,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on June 09, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
@TinselKoala:
First of all, you're not going to get the details you're looking for by trying to trick Rossi into a premature disclosure of his device. I guarantee you this will not work.
How do you get that from anything I've said? I am not trying to "trick Rossi" at all. I am pointing out that he HAS indeed said what some people in this thread seem to think he hasn't said: that there are gammas, and that the heat comes from the lead absorbing and thermalizing the gammas. ROSSI SAID THIS over and over. Is it true, or not?
QuoteHe has said all along that parts of his reactor will remain a secret until his patents have been awarded/granted him. Since you don't have all the information (or even ANY of the critical information) you can guess, assume and insinuate all you want to but he's outsmarted his competition and you're no exception.
Outsmarted his "competition"? Have you checked out Defkalion lately? I laugh at you and your "outsmarted". Defkalion --- if you believe them at all --- is so far ahead of Rossi it makes him look like... well, like an incompetent fraudster.
Quote
t
Secondly, all people are REALLY going to care about is that it works (because most people are not scientists), it saves them money on energy costs, and that it's safe to use.
Sure. Show me one that works. Remember the "1 MW Plant"? The one that only made less than half that much, and did that while a 500 kW diesel genset was running behind it? Remember? Did that one really work? I don't think so, and some other people who were there don't think so either. If YOU had what Rossi claims, couldn't YOU demonstrate it unequivocally, without revealing your secrets? I certainly could.
QuoteThe safety issue is neatly taken care of by U.L. because once they grant the certification(s) needed by Rossi, it will be safe for use in any public place or home. U.L. has NEVER certified ANY device that has injured the public through radiation exposure (just in case you're trying to imply this).
I don't know what U.L. has or has not certified, but I can point you to MANY cases where the "public" has been injured by radiation exposure from APPROVED medical and research devices. Approved by U.L.? How many gamma producing home fusion reactors has UL "Approved"? You are just being silly. Here's the deal: IF the device produces measurable gammas AT ALL, it will never get UL approval. And if it does NOT: then Rossi has lied to you and to me. And THAT is my point: What Rossi says is different from the truth. And example after example can be given of this.
Quote
And lastly, 1/2 a million people are not going to listen to you as evidenced by their own actions in pre-ordering Rossi's E-Cat (Thank God). So maybe you can sell your wares elsewhere as more people have pre-ordered this product than have even read this thread.
Better luck next time,
Chess
Let me know when you get your "pre-ordered" product. What have you really got? An email.
What "wares" am I selling? Just the truth. Gammas and lead, from Rossi's lips to your ears. Ignore what he says and make up your own explanations if you like... but I've shown you what ROSSI SAID.
Remember Sterling Allen? He went to see a genuine overunity mo-gen in South Africa a couple of months ago. He was ready with CASH to buy one, but the people were so nice that they didn't take his money (actually the money he solicited from his fans), but said they would GIVE him one of the first production models. Very clever. If he'd paid for it, they would have to come through. Since he didn't...... well, we all know what happened next, don't we: Nothing. And you and all the rest of your "half a million" Rossi pre-orders are in the same boat..... waiting for something to happen, and the date keeps being pushed back.
I'm not the one who needs "luck". If you want to hope and pray that Rossi will save the world, that's your business, and your money to invest and throw away. But when somebody wants to claim that there are no Gammas and that the lead can't be heating the water and that Rossi doesn't lie.... then they really should have to explain the quotations from Rossi where he says that there ARE gammas and that the heat comes from the LEAD SHIELDING heating the water. You think that I have no information... but I have collected just about everything that I can find concerning Rossi, and I know what he has SAID publicly. Going from what Rossi has SAID and the actual, verifiable DATA that exists.... I can tell you that there are glaring inconsistencies, and if you choose to ignore them, fine, go ahead. But don't go around saying Rossi isn't claiming gammas and lead heating the water, because he certainly has been saying that.... and if you think it's impossible, like Gwandau... I agree with you. And that is my point.
TinselKoala:
Everyone here already understands everything you just repeated again!
So.... what is your point?
The point is simply that Rossi is known to make statements that do not reflect reality. You, apparently, can therefore pick and choose what you wish to believe. I believe data, not words, and the data that are available to the public do not support Rossi's claims. And that is it, plain and simple. The only evidence for Rossi's claims is to be found in Rossi's claims. If you choose to believe them, that is your business, but you are doing it on faith, not reason.
@ all sceptics and believers alike,
At this stage Andrea Rossi couldn't care less if any of you guys or anyone else find his claims credible or not.
He has performed all the demonstrations he cares for and got the amount of publicity possible in regard to the
non favourable situation of being a simple engineer claiming such a magnitude of groundbreaking invention.
We have to understand what's crucial to Andrea Rossi at this stage of his marketing process.
Firstly, he sure doesn't need any advertisement or campaigns to succeed at this point in the e-cat story.
All he need now is to get his line going smothly at the highest production speed possible so he can enter the market att full speed.
Regarding all claims he have done about the process behind the heat generation, the farther away from the truth, the better for him at this point.
Furthemore, a groundbreaking invention like this is impossible to describe detailed enough to get a patent application granted without
at the same time giving away the very secret behind it all.
He is stuck in a Moment 22 situation, and the less any possible competitors know, the better.
So Andrea Rossi doesn't really care if you believe him or not. He know what he has discovered and he know it will sell like hell,
and the reason he starts with the home units is the simple fact that the 10KW e-cat is the only thing he has.
He obviously doesn't know how control the reaction of a bigger reactor, which is quite natural, since he has no team of nuclear scientists helping him.
As we all know, the 1MW unit is but a parallell cluster of 10KW e-cats, nothing more. He is, as the non nuclear scientist, stuck with the 10KW e-cat.
He will most certainly aim for research into bigger reactors as soon as the situation allows him, but right now he just want to get his e-cat production going without leaking the secret.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on June 09, 2012, 04:19:32 PM
@ all sceptics and believers alike,
At this stage Andrea Rossi couldn't care less if any of you guys or anyone else find his claims credible or not.
He has performed all the demonstrations he cares for and got the amount of publicity possible in regard to the
non favourable situation of being a simple engineer claiming such a magnitude of groundbreaking invention.
We have to understand what's crucial to Andrea Rossi at this stage of his marketing process.
Firstly, he sure doesn't need any advertisement or campaigns to succeed at this point in the e-cat story.
All he need now is to get his line going smothly at the highest production speed possible so he can enter the market att full speed.
Regarding all claims he have done about the process behind the heat generation, the farther away from the truth, the better for him at this point.
Furthemore, a groundbreaking invention like this is impossible to describe detailed enough to get a patent application granted without
at the same time giving away the very secret behind it all.
He is stuck in a Moment 22 situation, and the less any possible competitors know, the better.
So Andrea Rossi doesn't really care if you believe him or not. He know what he has discovered and he know it will sell like hell,
and the reason he starts with the home units is the simple fact that the 10KW e-cat is the only thing he has.
He obviously doesn't know how control the reaction of a bigger reactor, which is quite natural, since he has no team of nuclear scientists helping him.
As we all know, the 1MW unit is but a parallell cluster of 10KW e-cats, nothing more. He is, as the non nuclear scientist, stuck with the 10KW e-cat.
He will most certainly aim for research into bigger reactors as soon as the situation allows him, but right now he just want to get his e-cat production going without leaking the secret.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
I agree with most everything you have just stated. Amen. I would just like to add that Rossi is by far the closest to market than any of his competitors.
Rossi is in the right place at the right time and so it's easy to see why he has passed up the Dick Smith million dollar offer. He doesn't need more money. What he needs right now is more time instead. And as you have rightfully already pointed out, he certainly doesn't need ANY advertising AT ALL right now (free or otherwise). Not with 1/2 a million people already coming to his door and placing orders. The way I figure it, Rossi is looking at roughly $250 million dollars of business just filling the pre-ordereds he has already received. And I'm conservatively figuring the cost of each unit @ $500 dollars so the actual $250 million dollar estimate may be quite low if the units sell for more than $500 a piece (which I believe they will).
Can you imagine how many more people will be kicking down his door when he offers a vehicle that uses E-Cat technology or electricity generation for the home or both? Screw GM and Chevy. I want to own a Cat-a-lack ;) But first things first. Get the initial product out there and expand the overall operation.
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess,
Screw the Cat-a-lack, I want a Mo-ter-HOME!
According to the Hyperian Spec sheet, a nontoxic, high density, thermoplastic composite materials (Ecomass Compounds) (http://www.ecomass.com/) can be used as an alternative to lead. The spec sheet is based on pre-industrial prototypes.
Gravock
Quote from: Loner on June 10, 2012, 12:48:58 AM
Seeing I can easily be ignored, I can come out with this and no-one will care. (a good thing!) I assume most understand how a microwave oven works? Frequency anyone? Wouldn't it make sense for part of the actual work needing to be done is the proper method to dissipate / Transfer the "Output" energy (Whatever it may be...) directly into the water? The more efficient This aspect becomes, the less the housing / components must accept. May sound stupid, but with Gwandau's perspective and the excellent way that certain questions have been answered, that just seems to be the only concept that fits. Special material possible, but... There are other details I am still waiting for but an actual unit will still be the ultimate issue solver. (If anyone remembers history, many inventors didn't understand their own devices correctly, but DID get them working.)
I honestly wish A.R. all the luck possible in being able to produce these devices. (Multiple meanings there...)
@Loner:
Ignored? Not very likely. I read EVERY single post in this thread and consider all of them in their entirety. I don't always respond due to my lack of expertise in certain areas, but never the less, I for one, do still read them. Even the ones from the purely negative propagandists.
As far as luck, I don't believe this is what is lacking for Rossi. More like the ability to resist temptation. Think about that and you'll see I am correct.
Best Regards,
Chess
Gwandau:
If the process works like they speculate, that hydrogen somehow condenses into a neutron within the nickel matrix as a first step in an LENR reaction, then in my opinion you still work within the norms of nuclear reactions for the energy output calculation. In other words, the reaction happens, and the resulting energy byproducts of the reaction all add up as per E = Mc-squared and energy is conserved. You seem to be implying that something else above and beyond that might be happening.
You could take the point of view that anything is possible. But without any evidence you should hold back. It looks like any nickel isotope decay will provide energy on the same order of magnitude as is being claimed.
I wasn't aware that of this theory that it wasn't fusion in the conventional sense, but was an alleged fusion between a nickel nucleus and an ultra low kinetic energy neutron. It's certainly an interesting idea.
Gravoc:
Thanks for that link, the Hyperian material is indeed a substitute for lead. You learn something new every day.
What's interesting is that the molten lead or thermoplastic composite shielding material wrapped around the rector core is technically feasible. They use molten salts in certain types of nuclear reactors to transport the heat into the heat exchanger. It could explain the one-hour start-up time for the E-Cat. That would be the amount of time it takes to melt the lead so that it can start to circulate.
When you think about it, if the reactor core is the size of a thimble, or perhaps the size of a 200 ml can for Defkalion, it's hard to understand why it would take an hour to warm up. Note also in Defkalion's year-old preliminary spec sheet they use some kind of oil as the heat transfer medium.
MileHigh
Another thing I forgot to mention is this: With circulating molten lead, then you can buy time and you don't have the problem of the nickel in the reactor core melting because of a failure in primary coolant flow (like water from an external source).
The thermal mass of the molten lead will absorb the 10 kW of heat and if the primary heat exchanger stops extracting heat from the reactor, the temperature of the lead will then start to rise linearly. So even if it only takes a few seconds for the molten lead to reach a critical temperature, that's more than enough time for the microcontroller to react and shut off the EM wave generator and whatever else is sustaining the reaction. (The UL guys would insist on a redundant and independent mechanism for shutting down the reactor under these conditions.)
It also allows you to make 600 C steam without it being a big technical challenge. You just have to slow down the circulation speed of the molten lead to make it's reactor output temperature much higher before it goes into the heat exchanger. So a tweaking of the control system could do that quite easily. You could even have the microcontroller running a "fuzzy logic" algorithm to accomplish this.
Alas, I got no sense that the Invasion-of-the-Body-Snatchers pods in the one-megawatt reactor had any sophisticated control systems like I am describing above. You would expect to see some kind of control/display interface on each one of them if it really was the case.
So, waiting for the really big show.
MileHigh
@Everyone:
I read an interesting new article today titled "The Motivating Power of Hope for LENR". Below is an excerpt from this excellent piece by Frank Aclank:
"I have no illusions about the difficulties and obstacles that need to be dealt with to bring a new technology into the mainstream of society. All kinds of problems â€" technical, financial, political, legal, etc. â€" will need to be dealt with, which may take a lot of time, money, and persuasive power. But it seems that already the LENR genie is out of the bottle, and with so many people around the world now having knowledge of validity of this technology, it is going to be very difficult put it back and pretend it never existed."
Link to the full article:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/06/the-motivating-power-of-hope/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/06/the-motivating-power-of-hope/)
Enjoy,
Chess
MileHigh,
guesses or not, you are brilliant!
Now we are doing progress!
The Swedish scientists estimated the reactor volume with possible inner shielding included to be about 50 cubic centimeters, which is 50 ml or in US roughly 0.106 pints. If the actual reactor core is just a few percent of this volume, and the rest is a surrounding circulatory system of molten lead, it would as far as I understand actually work to generate heat from the gamma emissions of the LENR process!
Here we actually are in the position to calculate the exact volume of the active reactor compartment, since I recall that Andrea Rossi in one of his earlier exhibitions of the e-cat actually gave away the exact amount of hydrogen given in grams together with pressure values when he injected hydrogen into an empty e-cat reactor prior to starting it!
I will go through all my materail to find the data as soon as possible, since this will give us quite a nice view of the reactor size, and from there estimate the amount of volume available for lead in the 50cc reactor.
Great input, MileHigh, thank you very much!
Gwandau
Quote from: Loner on June 10, 2012, 03:20:20 PM
That molten lead idea is nice. (Well, better than nice...) I seem to have a memory block. Wasn't the original temp. of the E-Cat lower than the melting point of lead? While this would be an excellent method, I think that if the original temp was lower, then a different method must have been in use. While this WOULD be a tremendous improvement in the physical device, I think it would also make the original method questionable as to functionality?
Of course, if I am wrong about the temp of the original unit, then I am way off base, but I was under the impression that the original ran cooler then 400C.
Could someone correct me on this one?
According to Rossi, the lead melting point is a limitation,
so far. At the time Rossi made this statement, the temperature was above the melting point of lead. It appears the lead was protected by water through a particular design to prevent it from becoming molten. Possibly a work around to this limitation has been achieved since he made this statement.
Gravock
Aerogels can be formulated to block gamma rays and even cosmic rays. An alternative to lead is listed in the Hyperian Spec. sheet, so why are we limiting our thinking to lead only. Aerogels can withstand temperatures up to 3650°C. This easily overcomes the limitation of the lead's melting point. Aerogels made with aluminium oxide are known as alumina aerogels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel#Alumina). These aerogels are used as catalysts, especially when "doped" with a metal different from Al. Nickelâ€"alumina aerogel is the most common combination. The alumina aerogel's would have a large surface area for the reactions. Also, aluminum oxide prevents the formation of large nickel clusters at high temperatures, which would reduce the surface area for the reactions and defeat the purpose of the nano-nickel. Carbon nanotubes can also be grown with nickel nitrate hexahydrate through certain chemical vapor deposition techniques.
Gravock
If you flattened out the nano-structure of 1 gram of an aerogel and exposed it's surface area, it would cover an area the size of a football field (reference video: QUEST Lab: Aerogel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHnen2nSmDY)). LENR's occur at the surface and not in the bulk of the material. Aerogels are a perfect candidate for LENR's.
Gravock
@Loner and Gravityblock,
My comment on the intriguing ideas suggested by MileHigh was solely concerning the 600 degree e-cat.
Additionally I can't see anything wrong with the original solid lead e-cat working below 327.5 °C,
which Loner was making questionable as to functionality, as did I myself prior to the idea of a
very small active reactore core, thus making room for enough lead to absorb and generate the 10KW heat.
So from this perspective I am willing to accept the LENR reaction to conform to the possibility that the e-cat
still work within the norms of nuclear reactions for the energy output calculation, as MileHigh puts it.
With the risk of boring you with old information, lets's have a look at the limits that Andrea Rossi have to take into consideration.
Lead melts at 327.5 °C and nickel at 1453°C.
As in the case of the old e-cat where the heat is produced by gamma emission absorbed by solid lead,
there is no way to generate heat above 327.5 °C without melting the lead.
So if the new e-cat prototype that Andrea Rossi is testing right now generates around 600 °C,
he is either using a melted lead system around the reactor core suggested by MileHigh,
or some other type of shielding, like the aerogels gravityblock mentioned.
We have to keep in mind that there is no way of using water as a cooler to keep the lead from melting and at the same time
making the gamma emission heat the lead absorber to or above 327.5 °C.
Thus the upper limit of around 250 °C steam from the older version of the e-cat obsviously is caused by the use of a solid lead absorber.
Without the need for a solid lead absorber, Andrea Rossi theoretically only have to keep the reaction below the melting point of nickel, 1453 °C,
but I have a feeling that the present temperature limit applied by Mr.Rossi in his new prototype may be due to unfavourable changes
in the characteristics of the nickel nano powder above 600 °C.
Gwandau
Below is how NASA think the E-cat looks like:
Quote from: gravityblock on June 10, 2012, 06:48:27 PM
If you flattened out the nano-structure of 1 gram of an aerogel and exposed it's surface area, it would cover an area the size of a football field (reference video: QUEST Lab: Aerogel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHnen2nSmDY)). LENR's occur at the surface and not in the bulk of the material. Aerogels are a perfect candidate for LENR's.
Gravock
Gravityblock,
I agree, if aerogels doped with nickel did exist, that would certainly be a plausible future material for e-cats and their successors.
When using aerogels as gamma ray absorbers, the ability to absorb still is related to thickness:
"Gamma-ray shielding materials should be of high density and high atomic number so that they have
a high total linear attenuation coefficient and a high photoelectric absorption probability."
Gwandau
Just wanted to add some links I found interesting.
For example, has this Defkalion report about ongoing third party tests already been posted here?
I can't remember seeing it.
http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf (http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/2012-05_StatusPicturesFinal.pdf)
This is a page I found seething with LENR news of all kinds:
http://renewable.50webs.com/fusion.html (http://renewable.50webs.com/fusion.html)
And this is a funny E-cat steam calculator:
http://lenr.qumbu.com/jsxhelp.php (http://lenr.qumbu.com/jsxhelp.php)
Enjoy!
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on June 10, 2012, 10:07:59 PM
Gravityblock,
I agree, if aerogels doped with nickel did exist, that would certainly be a plausible future material for e-cats and their successors.
When using aerogels as gamma ray absorbers, the ability to absorb still is related to thickness:
"Gamma-ray shielding materials should be of high density and high atomic number so that they have
a high total linear attenuation coefficient and a high photoelectric absorption probability."
Gwandau
Gwandau,
The lead in the e-Cat isn't being heated up from the absorption of gamma rays. I'm very surprised you got caught up in this ridiculous debate, especially since you made a previous posting to the W-L Theory. The lead in the e-Cat is being heated up from the absorption of photons in the infrared region. Below is a quote on how the Widom-Larsen Theory explains Low Energy Nuclear Reactions & why they are safe and green (http://www.i-sis.org.uk/Widom-Larsen.php). We don't need a thick layer of shielding material!
Gravock
Quote
The W-L theory also explains why hard gamma and X-rays are not released during LENR system operation [8]. This arises from unique heavy-mass electrons created by the very strong nanoscale electric fields that occur in regions above localized patches of collectively oscillating protons and deuterons where neutron production and absorption are taking place. Unlike isolated normal-mass electrons situated in a vacuum or a hot plasma, heavy-mass electrons created in condensed matter LENR systems can directly absorb a hard gamma or X-ray photon, “ring like a bell†for an infinitesimal fraction of a second, then (according to conservation of energy) re-radiate a much larger number of much less energetic photons (mostly in the infrared region, with a much smaller ‘tail’ of soft X-ray photons).
In operating LENR systems, therefore, hard gamma ray photons in an energy range between 0.5 MeV and 10.0 MeV (often created during absorption of ULM neutrons by some, but not all, atoms/isotopes) are locally absorbed by heavy-mass electrons before they can escape [8]. Those electrons then convert the absorbed gammas directly into raw heat in the form of benign infrared photons that are also locally absorbed. LENR systems have what amounts to built-in gamma shielding during operation, a remarkable property by any standard.
A gamma-absorbing ‘patch layer’ of heavy-mass electrons in an LENR system has the ability to stop a very dangerous (~5 MeV) gamma ray in less than two nanometres. Whereas it would take ~10 cm of lead, ~25 cm of steel, or ~1 metre of very heavy concrete to accomplish the same degree of protection against ‘hard’ gamma radiation [9].
Gravityblock,
I'm covering the possibilities of applying old fasion high energy gamma emission theory to the e-cat process,
since I found MileHigh's idea of a melted lead system cirkulating the reactor core very interesting.
But if the reactor core actually needs a 10 cm layer of lead to absorb all high energy gamma emission, as it says in in your quote, the reaction
seems hard to explain by the standard model, since none of the e-cat reactors shown by Andrea Rossi are close to 20 cm in diameter.
So in that case we are back to the Widom-Larsen Theory, which still has to be validated and verified by orthodox nuclear science.
To be honest I have to agree that the idea of heavy mass electrons involved in a built in gamma shielding effected during operation sounds genial,
and of course I would prefer this to be the answer, since it also implies a well of new possibilities opening up for nuclear science.
I just want to be open for all alternatives.
Gwandau
Chess:
Quoting you from Rosemary's new forum:
Quote
P.S. TK certainly is one of the chief propagandists followed by fuzzytomcat and MileHigh. These three all fit the paid disinformation agent profile to a tee. They are all obvious plants.
Will you stop this ridiculous nonsense? I mean really, WTF???
You know if anything, readers of this forum can decide for themselves. They can easily look at you and decide that you are a paid shill and you are paid by Rossi.
From Wikipedia:
QuoteA shill, plant, or stooge is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that he has a close relationship with that person or organization. Shill typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that he is an enthusiastic independent customer of a seller (or marketer of ideas) for whom he is secretly working. The person or group who hires the shill is using crowd psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_psychology), to encourage other onlookers or audience members to purchase the goods or services (or accept the ideas being marketed). Shills are often employed by professional marketing campaigns.
I can tell you for sure that you look way more like a paid shill than I look like a paid disinformant. Your job is to excite clueless and gullible people and get them to get on Rossi's mailing list. That mailing list itself will have value and can be sold. But the real "pop" will be when Rossi asks all serious buyers to give him a 50% cash advance on their orders in order to prioritize them in the "real queue." Then you will get your cut, right Chess?
The truth is that I don't think that you are a shill. I think that you are a rabid supporter of Rossi which is fine by me. You can't argue the technical merits or lack thereof of the alleged technology as shown by your own statements.
So, feel free to support Rossi all the way while only having a vague concept in your mind of how it might work. I will be free to state my thoughts and I have a slightly less vague concept of how it might work.
But stop alleging that I am a paid disinformant. I am sick of it and it is pure bullshit.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 11, 2012, 12:02:09 PM
You know if anything, readers of this forum can decide for themselves. They can easily look at you and decide that you are a paid shill and you are paid by Rossi.
I can tell you for sure that you look way more like a paid shill than I look like a paid disinformant. Your job is to excite clueless and gullible people and get them to get on Rossi's mailing list. That mailing list itself will have value and can be sold. But the real "pop" will be when Rossi asks all serious buyers to give him a 50% cash advance on their orders in order to prioritize them in the "real queue." Then you will get your cut, right Chess?
@MileHigh:
When I first read the above quotation, I nearly laughed myself right onto the floor, literally. And the only possible way you could understand why is if I laid a few more of my cards on the table. So here's the punchline.
I am Rossi's worst nightmare. I am working on a technology, that if proven successful, will completely and utterly ruin Andrea Rossi and leave his E-Cat in a sad state of obscurity.
Why would I say something as bold as this? Because even though my technology requires a fuel source as well, the fuel is by far less expensive than nickel and there is no need for lead shielding or even a 1 hour "warm up" period. It also adapts to existing infrastructure much more easily than does the E-Cat.
So Rossi beating me to market is really not a big deal to me at all, but I would be (for obvious reasons just stated above) the last person Rossi would want to be involved with in any way shape or form business wise. After all, I am the future competition which makes us rivals in the end.
Now having said all of that; if I were getting paid or even working for Rossi in secret with the hopes of getting paid later on, don't you think I would be just a little better versed in precisely how Rossi's device works? My technical responses would simply become Rossi's own words and concepts. Rossi could use me to personally counter even the toughest of technical questions with technical knowledge far beyond that of my own. But my obvious lack of expertise in this area is rather self evident.
Quote from: MileHigh on June 11, 2012, 12:02:09 PM
The truth is that I don't think that you are a shill.
I think that you are a rabid supporter of Rossi which is fine by me. You can't argue the technical merits or lack thereof of the alleged technology as shown by your own statements.
I don't think that this is any great secret. It is obvious by the way I pretty much STAY OUT of the highly technical discussions and deep theory debates. If I don't know enough in my own opinion about certain things, I will not try to BS my way through. This just isn't me. This is when I stay silent and open up my mind to learn new things. I try to make the best of every situation because I realize profoundly that when I do not get what I really want, I at least gain an education as a consolation.
Quote from: MileHigh on June 11, 2012, 12:02:09 PM
So, feel free to support Rossi all the way while only having a vague concept in your mind of how it might work. I will be free to state my thoughts and I have a slightly less vague concept of how it might work.
But stop alleging that I am a paid disinformant. I am sick of it and it is pure bullshit.
Having an opinion that is contrary to mine, Rossi's or even other people here in this thread is TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE and appropriate. However, if this opposite opinion carries any weight or merit on its own, then there would be no need to include false information or misleading material along with your opposing argument. As I have stated a long, long time ago, false information is what is used to sell baseless and empty arguments (be they for false flag wars or otherwise). This is why propaganda has become such a giant tool wielded by governments more times than swords.
If you can be man enough to admit that at least one of your statements have been less than factual, then I will stop stating my opinion referring to you as one who fits the profile of a disinformation agent.
Sincerely,
Chess Knight
Quote from: Loner on June 11, 2012, 10:36:41 PM
I wanted to thank you for the correction of my views. Unfortunately, it just makes it worse for me as now there are too many possibilities for me to decide which way to theorize. Solid lead as a transfer to molten lead for a transfer is a nice concept, but I just can't accept that kind of leap in a same-sized box. Having worked on wave solder machines and being aware of certain requirements for pumping the lead just makes it a little too far out for me, though not impossible. I even lean away from the original setup being just solid lead, as transfer would be tough, but then again, A.R. had difficulties and maybe that's why.
So really, the only thing I can state for fact is, "I don't know enough.".
I like the idea of heavy-electron transfer, although I would define it differently. This seems more along the lines of what I would expect, though I have no good reason for such beliefs that I can admit to. At this point, I'm just gonna lurk and see.
I still believe that direct dissipation into the water will make a nice solution... Useless for other transfers, however, and Field bias for direct electrical generation might end up out first. As I said, I'll Lurk and See.
I agree, the idea of heavy-mass electron transfer should be defined differently (maybe high electron density transfer?). Personally, I like the concept of photons gaining mass (photonic mass) with a loss in velocity and momentum in an electric field, as they do in superconductors. Photons gaining mass and decreasing in velocity is supported by the standard model, by Frank Wilczek (a nobel prize winner), by Frank Znidarsic, by Ioannis Xydous (His paper has now been published in the Journal of Nuclear Physics), along with many others.
Below is an image of a C
60 fullerene showing the ground state electron density.
Wave-particle duality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerenes#Quantum_mechanics) applies to molecules such as fullerenes. An important factor in the e-Cat is the dissociation of molecular hydrogen to atomic hydrogen. This can be done with an energy gain on fullerenes.
Gravock
@Everyone:
I urge everyone to sign this petition in support of LENR/cold fussion if you reside in the U.S. This petition will help our voices be heard as an organized effort which can not be ignored any longer.
Here's the link:
http://www.change.org/petitions/cold-fusion-renewable-energy (http://www.change.org/petitions/cold-fusion-renewable-energy)
Please feel free to scroll down the page and read every single comment left in the comment section. I enjoyed them immensely.
Thank you in advance for your support,
Chess
P.S. The following is a current update on the signature gathering:
As of 06/10/2012 this is only 22 local signatures away from going national.
This is among the safest, cleanest, and most powerful energy resources that has been proven to be as or more productive than coal, and nuclear fission; which is more commonly known. Other technologies based on science fiction stories like the various Star Trek television series from the 1960′s through recent series, offer multiple ideas that need to be officially explored further. Use of this energy source has the potential of replacing oil, coal, and natural gas use worldwide. The nation that does this first would likely reduce foreign dependence by 100%, erase it’s own and most other nations trade debts and retain all funds used towards purchasing foreign energy resources. The conservative powers that currently exist and the energy corporations that want to hold onto their dominance are fighting this in every way possible.
link:
http://coldfusionnow.org/petition-cold-fusion-energy-development/ (http://coldfusionnow.org/petition-cold-fusion-energy-development/)
@Everyone:
I came across the following text regarding Rossi's products while reading through some anonymous comments to an article:
"The best analogy is refrigeration. Until 1928 refrigeration in the west was accomplished by the ice box â€" serviced by the Ice Man. Once or twice a week the Ice Man would deliver ice to your ice box to keep your food fresh. In 1928 the first home Refrigerator went on sale. It revolutionized food storage. In a matter of ten years Refrigerator sales quadrupled and ice boxes faded away. As did the Ice Man â€" equivalent to your central electric Utility company.
We don’t need a centralized ice house or Ice Man when we can make our own ice at home. Same with electricity. LENR is the new refrigerator. Little more than a new home appliance sitting in your basement or utility closet. It makes heat for your hot water, and power for your lights and flat screen… It’s not rocket science."
I like the sentiment 8)
Regards,
Chess
This is something that have upset me all the way back since I first read about the invention by Andrea Rossi.
It is my deep conviction that Andrea Rossis' or anyones elses attempt to patent a COP>1 system is basically unethical.
The very idea of patenting free energy is absurd.
I would like to emphasize the importance of any COP>1 systems to always be open source.
It is a crime against humanity to restrict anything that is accessible in abundance for everyone to share and use.
LENR is a double edged sword seen from the perspective of the present monetary and political system. It will be extremely difficult to keep the present power structure and elitiscism intact when presenting a technology that in the long run will move towards the individual, leaving the present elite without its traditional means of an upper hand.
The elite won't easily let go of the advantage of being in charge of the social, economic and political structure of mankind.
To reinforce this sovereignty the present ladder system of upward oriented advantage system is making it beneficial for the individual to maintain and secure the continuance of this system. And since the increase engine of the present monetary system is upward oriented, the power are increasing exponentially the higher up the ladder you get.
As a result there are only a few percent with the main power mandate to decide the design of of the human social structure.
This intricate ladder system reverbrates all the way down to you and I, who likewise maintain the stucture by keeping a firm grip on the level of advancement we presently have achieved.
Only the base of the social-economic-political pyramide have nothing to lose, but as mainly being the least educated and intellectually trained members of the society, they have few ways to execute any effective changes.
The guys in charge on this planet are well aware of the threat to their positions that any energy system like LENR might be, so they are most likely right now planning how to deal with this threat to their sovereignty. Since it becomes more obvious for every month that passes that LENR is here to stay, they will soon engage with all their resources to incorporate LENR into the present power structure.
If they succeed, free energy like LENR will just replace the dirty fission heaters at the nuclear plants and the increase rate of your electricity bill won't deviate much from your present situation.
This would be unfair beyond comprehension. Through LENR there is enough energy for everyone to use for whatever purpose we want.
LENR holds within itself the key to total freedom for every man and woman on earth.
LENR has the power to change the world, giving us back our birthright of freedom and integrity, decentralising the infrastructure to the benefit for personal self realization. But we wont get this free energy for free as long as we passively accept to be slaves to the system.
We are standing at an unparallelled threshold in human history, and not many people seem to grasp the magnitude of the fork ahead on the road.
And it cannot be said too many times:
To patent and restrict the access of an innovation like LENR or any COP>1 technology is a crime against humanity, since if there are no limits to the amounts of accessible energy,
it self evidently belongs to us all.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
No offense, but your main point is a common theme that we have all read many times. Personally I don't believe it. If you want to believe in the Capitalist system, then you can set up your own power company using E-Cats for generation. Then you give a choice to the consumers of power. Assuming that you can sell electricity at lower rates, then you get the business.
Let's guess that 90% of the economy are energy consumers and 10% of the economy are energy producers. So the 90% is more powerful than the 10% and the 90% will dictate where the market goes.
Lots of small hydro generating plants are already pumping power into the grid, it's been around for a few decades.
There is a narrative that underlies the whole realm of free energy and it's almost the same as an urban legend. It has 'cachet' and plays perfectly into the subculture. So in my opinion there is a mutual hypnotize-off going on. If you are swimming in a fishbowl and you have only known murky water, then you don't know that you are swimming in murky water. The murky water is the belief in the all-powerful oligarchy that will snuff out any free energy technology that comes around. The con artists out there are all keenly aware of this and they hold their "MIB" card in reserve and play it when they have to with high confidence.
Sterling Allen is reporting that Magnacoaster has finally started filling their three-year backlog of orders where most people paid 50% or 100% cash up front. Sterling talked to some American-born mysterious Indian guru type guy so it must be true. So what's the deal going to be in three months when there isn't a single report of a functioning Magnacoaster setup anywhere in the world? Of course we already know the answer, don't we? The Men in Black will get them and threaten Richard! If you don't believe this lie is true, ask the blind man, he saw it too!
If you can sell cheaper power to a factory owner and you can give them the same up-time as the big power companies, then they will take you up on the offer.
Finally, not to beat a horse to death, but it's not free energy at all. It's allegedly a new form of atomic energy that has been under our noses for a while and we have finally discovered it. I think that it's a great disservice to all of the readers to call this free energy.
What this ultimately means is that prices for everything should start to fall and keep falling for quite some time. It could mean a 20-hour work week because the efficiency of the economy could skyrocket. Somewhere down the line perhaps even Jetson's flying cars.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
Since in reality there are no closed systems, per definition everything is free energy.
The COP value is simply defined by the efficiency we have attained in using whatever energy source, or more clearly, defined by our limited knowledge.
Even an ordinary electrical generator is far above COP>1, with excess energy dissipating at the dipoles, and the sum energy created far exceeding the input shaft torque.
The idea of the torque behind the generator shaft being the actual energy source for the electricity generated are one of the greatest misconceptions of contemporary science.
The rotation of the shaft just created the correct electromagnetic differential to tap the void of electricity, a void that is abundant with energy.
This is why mankind has to redefine the second law of thermodynamics, since the concept of a closed system is an illusion.
So as far as I and all those guys thinking in the lines of Tom Bearden are concerned, everything is free energy, it just depends on our ability to tap it.
So anything with a COP>1 is free energy in action. Even simple sources like wind power and solar power is are good examples of free energy. In fact,
there is no difference at all in definition between tapping the energy from the sun and tapping the zero point energy between planck scale Casimir plates.
And remember, there are no closed systems. Everything is connected. We are all one.
Gwandau
To all Don Quixotes,
To understand, to believe, to practice FE we need a paradigm change.
Change that could happen after a generation.
The young practice what the old have thought.
Please compare:
Homeopathy is 100 years old.
(4 generations !!!)
The medicine is cheap: you could even make it yourself for 0 cost.
The theory is simple: a small booklet called Organon.
(easy to read, difficult to grasp)
100 years after:
Only 2 to 3% over the whole world believe in homeopathie.
Even less practice it.
They prefer sell their houses tot buy medicine
(comp. Cancer-treatment)
Big pharma ALLWAYS grows bigger and bigger.
Why is that ???
Because you cannot impose consciousness.
Homeopathy not in a 100 years.
FE not in xxx years.
Try to talk to your family, your neighbors, your friends.
You will notice. It’s like chasing windmills.
Vision:
We will practice FE in our garages.
With Quentron, E-Cat, Defcalion and Others.
We ? 2 to 3% off the world-people. For a 100 years to come.
Servantes (Peter)
@Everyone:
How is it that imperfect men could have ever created ANYTHING perfect and flawless? This notion of a perfect man is the true heresy.
The following is a quote I found to be profoundly true:
"Cold Fusion" has sometimes been referred to as an example of bad science. We agree. It was bad science when Galileo agreed with Copernicus that the Earth orbited the sun and he was charged with heresy and placed under house arrest. It was bad science when Roemer announced that contrary to the prevailing belief, the speed of light was not infinite but was actually 186,000 miles per second. He was ridiculed by the scientific establishment and driven out of a scientific career. It was bad science when doctors continued to go from patient to patient without washing their hands, leading to childbirth mortality rates as high as 28% even after clinical studies had shown that washing between patients could significantly reduce mortality. It wasn’t until many years later after Pasteur had identified bacteria that could be transmitted from patient to patient that hand-washing was widely adopted. These are just three examples of a long list of "bad science."
In each of these cases.it took in excess of 20 years after the initial announcement and compelling experimental evidence before the mainstream scientific establishment accepted the change. In this light, "cold fusion" is another example of bad science. And as with the examples listed above, after more than 20 years it is getting harder to deny the experimental evidence of "cold fusion." We believe "cold fusion" is well on its way to becoming an accepted scientific fact and that ICCF-17 will be a pivotal event in answering the question of whether "cold fusion" can become the safe, low-cost nuclear energy source to meet the world’s growing energy demand.
I would just like to add one more "bad science" example that modern mainstream science is still red faced over. How about the rings of Saturn that were ALWAYS documented as being perfectly concentric in modern science books until the recent discovery by NASA which proved them to be otherwise with photographic evidence to the contrary? Mainstream science has never been the absolute authority on science and they never shall be. Not when it is controlled and built by mere mortal men with inherent imperfections.
Best Regards,
Chess
Chess:
I'm sure that I made some mistakes earlier in the thread and I admit that. That's just normal, I am only human. I also was not fully informed about certain things. I am not too passionate about this whole affair like you are and sometimes I didn't have the energy or drive to argue things out.
But that's just a minor bump on the road. In the overall thread, I have shared my thoughts about Rossi and LENR in an honest way and I am not a paid disinformation agent.
Gwandau:
QuoteEven an ordinary electrical generator is far above COP>1, with excess energy dissipating at the dipoles, and the sum energy created far exceeding the input shaft torque.
The idea of the torque behind the generator shaft being the actual energy source for the electricity generated are one of the greatest misconceptions of contemporary science.
The rotation of the shaft just created the correct electromagnetic differential to tap the void of electricity, a void that is abundant with energy.
This is why mankind has to redefine the second law of thermodynamics, since the concept of a closed system is an illusion.
That's a pure Tom Bearden inspired fantasy.
Have you done the experiments? I have, and they refute what you are saying. All that a generator is doing is pumping electrons up to a higher potential so they can flow through a load. It's no different that you going to a hand-pump and turning a wheel and lifting water up one meter and putting it into a storage tank. This idea you have is an example of a reality disconnect. Tom Bearden generates a bunch of text to create "Tom Bearden's Imaginary Universe."
The universe is real, and when you turn a generator by hand and it starts to drive a load you can feel the mechanical resistance increase. Torque and angular velocity are essentially the same as current and voltage. There is literally almost no difference between the two things from an energy perspective. This is an example of where you want to try to "see" what's going on.
The whole "closed system" vs. "open system" stuff is more of the tall tale spun by Tom and his friends. You can evaluate every individual experiment on its own merits without ever using that terminology.
It's all much simpler than you think.
QuoteSo anything with a COP>1 is free energy in action. Even simple sources like wind power and solar power is are good examples of free energy.
This is an incorrect idea if you want to follow the energy trail all the way back to the source. If I recall correctly, the sun converts about 67 million tons of hydrogen into helium per second. That's the source of your wind and solar power. The COP == 1. That's the real deal.
MileHigh
Chess:
QuoteI am Rossi's worst nightmare. I am working on a technology, that if proven successful, will completely and utterly ruin Andrea Rossi and leave his E-Cat in a sad state of obscurity.
Why would I say something as bold as this? Because even though my technology requires a fuel source as well, the fuel is by far less expensive than nickel and there is no need for lead shielding or even a 1 hour "warm up" period. It also adapts to existing infrastructure much more easily than does the E-Cat.
So you have the genie in the bottle! So when are you going to launch?
MileHigh
MileHigh,
I regard solar and wind power to be COP>1 systems seen from the perspective of the user, which is the only perspective of interest.
Wonder who is the one losing contact with reality here?
Gwandau
Gwandau:
You can't forget that the sun will eventually switch off. But the gloom and doomsayers that allege we have to do something soon or we will destroy the Earth are wrong. The sun is an abundant source of energy that is certainly free as long as it's shining:
How Much Solar Energy Hits Earth? (http://www.ecoworld.com/energy-fuels/how-much-solar-energy-hits-earth.html) Posted on 14 June 2006.
If solar power is the purest form of renewable energy known, then how much solar power have we got? The answer to this question, when considered alongside how efficiently we can convert raw sunshine into usable power, helps determine whether or not it is realistic to consider solar energy as a viable alternative to conventional energy sources.
In full sun, you can safely assume about 100 watts of solar energy per square foot. If you assume 12 hours of sun per day, this equates to 438,000 watt-hours per square foot per year. Based on 27,878,400 square feet per square mile, sunlight bestows a whopping 12.2 trillion watt-hours per square mile per year.
| start a petition (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/create.html) | by Care2 (http://www.care2.com)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecoworld.com%2Fimages%2Fblog_sun-esa%2Bnasa.gif&hash=df5789ff9067324af68fe93210ab83ddd66fb19a)
With these assumptions, figuring out how much solar energy hits the entire planet is relatively simple. 12.2 trillion watt-hours converts to 12,211 gigawatt-hours, and based on 8,760 hours per year, and 197 million square miles of earth’s surface (including the oceans), the earth receives about 274 million gigawatt-years of solar energy, which translates to an astonishing 8.2 million “quads†of Btu energy per year.
In case you haven’t heard, a “quad Btu†refers to one quadrillion British Thermal Units of energy, a common term used by energy economists. The entire human race currently uses about 400 quads of energy (in all forms) per year. Put another way, the solar energy hitting the earth exceeds the total energy consumed by humanity by a factor of over 20,000 times.
Clearly there is enough solar energy available to fulfill all the human race’s energy requirements now, and for all practical purposes, forever. The key is developing [size=100%][size=inherit]technologies[/size] (http://www.ecoworld.com/energy-fuels/how-much-solar-energy-hits-earth.html#)[/size][/color] that efficiently convert solar power into usable energy in a cost-effective manner.
For energy conversion constants a good website is Energy Conversion, to help elucidate this [size=100%][size=inherit]data[/size] (http://www.ecoworld.com/energy-fuels/how-much-solar-energy-hits-earth.html#)[/size][/color].
I suppose that the moral of the story is that if every attempt to produce free energy fails, then the answer is not in the rocks below our feet (LENR) but rather it's the sun Ra in the sky.
Just imagine if you did a megaproject in the Sahara desert. You build a massive solar collector and storage array thousands of square miles in size with an army of maitenance workers taking care of it. It provides electrical power to all of Europe and Africa. If you think big anything is possible.
It could even bootstrap itself by using the power produced in a small starter section to provide the energy and cash required to build the rest of the mega solar collector.
I would still be thrilled if the rocks below our feet could meet our energy needs also. You think of the Middle East and all the black gold they are sitting on. Then it turns out we are sitting on even more black rocky gold. Way way more in fact. Like our own giant ocean of oil is discovered. It would be sweet and then we can tell them to take their oil and shove it.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 14, 2012, 07:21:54 PM
Chess:
So you have the genie in the bottle! So when are you going to launch?
MileHigh
@MileHigh:
Throughout the history of mankind, man has always striven to "build a better mousetrap". Although I thoroughly enjoy studying new energy systems and technologies, my greatest passion is to experiment with them "hands on" and learn new fascinating things that I only read about in books beforehand. I'm a builder with my own private lab very much like some of you and "you" know exactly who you are.
As I clearly stated in my previous posting you have made reference to, the technology I am working on needs to be proven successful before it's "launched" onto the scene. So in my own words, "...if proven successful", the "if" is a pretty big if at that.
Now just assume for a moment that Rossi's E-Cat is on sale at your neighborhood Home Depot and it has been proven beyond ALL doubt to in fact perform as advertised. Then at one time previous to that day, Rossi was facing this identical "if" as well. Most (if not all) great innovations begin as mere "ifs".
My project or build should be ready to yield definite results before the end of this year. Be they good or bad results, I will be starting another thread to separately showcase this technology so you (and anybody else interested) can see at least what in the world I have been working on all this time before 2013. I really don't want to go off on a tangent by showcasing my work here in this thread. I will also be using my current YouTube account to upload my own videos for everyone to review.
Regards,
Chess
I just wanted to announce the 17th International Conference on Cold Fusion (http://www.iccf17.org/sub04_03.php) (ICCF-17) in Daejeon, South Korea on August 12-17, 2012. Defkalion Green Technologies and Brillioun Energy will be making presentations at the conference, just to name a few of the big names that will be on hand.
Andrea Rossi will not be attending this conference but most of his serious competition will be there to take advantage of this opportunity to win over some new potential customers.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on June 14, 2012, 10:54:00 PM
My project or build should be ready to yield definite results before the end of this year. Be they good or bad results, I will be starting another thread to separately showcase this technology so you (and anybody else interested) can see at least what in the world I have been working on all this time before 2013. I really don't want to go off on a tangent by showcasing my work here in this thread. I will also be using my current YouTube account to upload my own videos for everyone to review.
Hello Chess,
I absolutely was not aware of this. Golly. I had no idea that you were actually doing experiments. I am MOST interested to see what you'll get here Chess. This is very good news indeed.
Kindest regards,
Rosie
MileHigh,
I agree with you, the energy from our sun is the most clean and abundant energy source there is,
and I dearly hope the big investors soon will catch on to projects like the one suggested to be implemented in Sahara.
The reasearch into photo synthesis, which presently is the most efficient light to electricity conversion there is,
are today at the threshold of implementing an artificial copy of this superior conversion by nature and when this kind of
photo voltaic cells reaches the market we actually won't need any new types of free energy inventions for electricity production, just like you say.
At the same time, novel exploration into uncharted areas like the LENR field will open an abundance of other possibilities
that will be beneficial for mankind, such as matter transition technology and so forth.
So I think highly of all the guys for example at this forum, that are devoting their spare time in their home built labs and garages in the quest
for unorthodox solutions to the problems that haunts mankind today. No matter how many dead ends being the result of their experiments,
there is always a possibility to make a breakthrough in a direction overlooked by orthodox science.
The fundamental scientific laws postulated and followed by the contemporary scientific community are nothing more than relative thruths,
which always are subject for redefinition and revising, no matter how general and comprehensive they may seem.
Remember, it is always the outsider with a novel perspective who causes changes in the direction of any paradigm, the scentific paradigm included.
Chessnyt,
great to hear you are engaged in research, and you may be the one who makes it. In fact any one of us seriously involved in experiments connected to
the implementation of a certain idea may be one of those who finally makes it.
That's the beauty and drive behind it all, and to me there is nothing more romantic than this novel quest.
Those who reside in the trust of the scientific authorities and their ability to cover all possibilities, those guys will never contribute anything novel to mankind.
Long live the free independent research!
Gwandau
Gwandau, I agree with you. This quest for clean energy is very much akin to the quest for the holy grail. And the theme is ever more poignantly romantic when we acknowledge that without some answers soon we're dead in the water. I think the real value of these forums is that it systematically erodes the preconceptions that there are no answers outside the standard model. And the standard model doesn't give us answers.
I'm also delighted to see that there are experimentalists in cold fusion and on this forum. And as Chess is one of them - then I'm also satisfied that the knowledge will be open sourced. That's most important. But you've also hinted at your own interests here. Are you experimenting with LENR? Gwandau? Or are you waiting for the launch of those first devices?
Regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Gwandau on June 15, 2012, 06:55:34 PM
Chessnyt,
great to hear you are engaged in research, and you may be the one who makes it. In fact any one of us seriously involved in experiments connected to the implementation of a certain idea may be one of those who finally makes it.
That's the beauty and drive behind it all, and to me there is nothing more romantic than this novel quest.
Those who reside in the trust of the scientific authorities and their ability to cover all possibilities, those guys will never contribute anything novel to mankind.
Long live the free independent research!
Gwandau
@Gwandau & Rosemary:
I am very glad that I am not alone in my independent energy research. As you have rightfully already pointed out, this forum is filled with energy researchers/builders who dedicate much of their free time to investigating energy solutions. Because we are self funded (most of us), there is little room for alterior motives concerning our efforts.
Regarding the achievement of a breakthrough; As it was once explained to me, you can not expect to win the lottery if you never purchase a ticket.
Thanks for the compliments,
Chess
Dear Rosmary,
thank you for your interest, and yes, I am dedicating most of my spare time in my workshop engaged in three altogether different projects, but non of them LENR related.
I am a bit reserved when it comes to disclosing too much details regarding two of my projects, since they are in those stages of development where money has been invested into initial stage prototypes of which one just is being put through its first tests, and experience have told me not to disclose anything in the childhood stage of novel research. So I have decided to leave them out for the time being.
The above mentioned secrecy has nothing to with patents or anything in that direction, it is all about focusing ones positive creative energy so it doesn't get dissipated by the influence of possible negative observers. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye when dealing with research into uncharted areas.
Believe it or not, but novel research is dependent on far more parameters than the mere physical ones. Innovation is dependent on the intricate relationship between the observer and the observed, and the consciouness of the person executing the research is a determining factor in the active process of innovation.
The British biochemist Robert Sheldrake has devoted his entire career into the exploration of a new science he calls "Morpho-Genesis". He has found through statistical research that any new innovation takes a certain time to gain momentum in its function. For example, a never before done chemical experiment is performing very different results in the beginning, but the more times the experiment is performed, and the more people that has witnessed it, the more stable the chemical reaction becomes. And this is why anybody stumbling into a new area of free energy has to be very careful with to whom he or she initially introduces the new concept to.
At this point I am sure many readers are rising their eyebrows quite a bit. What the hell is he talking about?
This is fully understandable, since it is totally opposing the conventional view of our universe being rock solid in its dependence on never changing scientific fundamental laws. But believe it or not, reality is not rock solid rational, it is a soft system of interacting change, and consciousness has a very important and structuring creative role in it.
This is soo hard for the human rational mindset to understand, especially for the western conditioned mind who have been learned to believe in an unchanged continuance of same physical laws throughout the universe, but consciousness is not a result of matter. Matter is a result of consciousness. Or more clearly, the way we experience material reality fully depends on the instruments, or senses, that we are using to filter and read the surrounding energy matrix. Objective reality is an illusion.
This is the latest news from the Quantum Physics: If there is no one there observing, there is nothing there to observe. The observed needs an observer to gain form and structure, to manifest out of chaos into structure. Heavy stuff, but confirmed by Quantum Physics.
This insight is shared by my project consultant, who is a proffesional inventor in the wood industry sector. My own proffesion as a product developer for the coating industry has been of great help in organizing my research routines which are essential in optimizing so called research "windows" for minimizing unwanted parameters.
Now, since I for the time being cannot tell you anything about two of my projects, I will teel you about the third project, which actually is a project that if ever successful, will have a deep impact on us all. But the magnitude of the parameters involved in the implementation of this project is so paramount, that I doubt I will ever succeed in the implementation of it. Just the cost of building the first prototype will make me a very poor man with great loans, so I put my trust into the other two projects, thus hoping that the economic outcome of those will create the needed funding for this one.
This project is primarily aimed in the validation of the so called "Unity theory" by David Barclay, but if the experiments performed actually are validating the Unity theory, I will engage in an attempt to implement his unified field theory into a working device capable of harnessing this all encompassing underlying field that he emphasizes are the very cause behind the existence of all phenomenons, including matter, time and space.
Presenting this field theory, or even worse, my attempt to harness this field, would surely blow all the fuses in MileHighs "mental health" security detectors, so in consideration for his blood pressure and overall mental health, I won't go any further into this project here.
But for anyone interested in my project or the Unity theory, feel free to visit http://www.gravitycontrol.org/forum/index.php?topic=328.0 (http://www.gravitycontrol.org/forum/index.php?topic=328.0) were I have combined an easy read introduction into David Barclays Unity theory with my own attempts to understand the physics behind the extraterrestrial drive which apparently are utilizing this field for zero time travel.
So, dear Rosemary and all those that hopefully made it through the above text without getting too upset or intimidated,
I hope it answers your question about my partaking in the quest for new energy sources.
Gwandau
Hello Gwandau.
That's a comprehensive answer. Thank you. I read through your blog. Very interesting, especially as it relates to the properties of bismuth. Most intriguing. I'll read through it again in due course - but on a superficial reading it certainly seems to be well thought out.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Everyone:
I've been reading a little more about the politics in the mainstream scientific community which has been hampering LENR research.
Here's an excerpt from a very insightful article which explains some of the "wrenches thrown into the gears" in an attempt to stifle, discourage and put a stop to current LENR research:
"The bad news is that there is still resistance to cold fusion from the scientific establishment. In another video Hagelstein revealed that he had convinced some executives at a major corporation in the United States to fund LENR research at MIT. The research would have been an attempt to duplicate some of Piantelli’s work.
Hagelstien said he got the money but an “important physicist at MIT blocked the research. To make matters worse the physicist called the vice president of the company funding the research and said what Hagelstein called impolite things. He said this got the funding stopped and that the executives who were interested in LENR were worried that they might lose their jobs. Hagelstein did not reveal the name of the company or the important physicist.
This is bad news because it shows how petty, closed minded and ignorant so called scientists can sometimes be. It also shows how
dangerous confining scientific research to large institutions subject to politics really is. It is easy for a few people that know how to work the system to stifle any progress that threatens their funding."
The full article can be found here:
http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/lenr-success-at-mit (http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/lenr-success-at-mit)
Regards,
Chess
We need some serious hard core investigative journalist to go after a story like this. Bring out all the details. I think it would be a great story as it affects everyone in the world. Expose idiots like this and maybe it'll make their pompous ass think twice before shutting down research like this again.
Quote from: e2matrix on June 16, 2012, 10:24:48 PM
We need some serious hard core investigative journalist to go after a story like this. Bring out all the details. I think it would be a great story as it affects everyone in the world. Expose idiots like this and maybe it'll make their pompous ass think twice before shutting down research like this again.
I absolutely agree. If ONLY we could get a really well respected journalist to deal with this. I confidently predict that the first journalist who does cover the LENR saga - will most certainly be up for every journalistic award going. It's crying out for attention.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on June 16, 2012, 10:28:43 PM
I absolutely agree. If ONLY we could get a really well respected journalist to deal with this. I confidently predict that the first journalist who does cover the LENR saga - will most certainly be up for every journalistic award going. It's crying out for attention.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
You obviously know nothing about who controls practically ALL media. Expect that "Hero" journalist to lose his job and get blacklisted the day he comes to office with his "glorious" story.
Tell us lol5535 - who controls nearly all media? I've seen this statement many times but who really is in control? And if they are why are whistleblower stories making it into the mainstream. Also no one currently controls the Internet in most countries so if a well known top journalist publishes this info on the Internet then how will that make the mainstream media look? It will then be obvious they are part of the problem. At this point every one is concerned about energy prices. It's on the news all the time and the mainstream news has even pointed their fingers at the commodities traders as being part of the problem with high oil and gas prices. I think the mainstream news cannot afford to ignore a story like this. As it is they are being challenged on the Internet everyday by much more open news web sites.
The reason the mainstream media has ignored this is because there was no third-party independent testing of the results. People in the media will listen to all sides of a story and then decide what to print. I have been saying this over and over and some of you choose to take the ostrich route and stick your heads in the sand.
Look at the example of Steorn. In 2007 they were supposed to reveal a magnetic motor in public and when they failed it was reported in the mainstream media. Then a few years later they did another ridiculous and bogus demo in Ireland and they weren't even reported on in the mainstream media. They had their chance and they blew it. There was nothing to report at the second event in Ireland, it was a ridiculous farce. Steorn never managed to produce even a single erg of free energy.
Even now you can assume that the newspapers are approached by thousands of people with fake stories or crackpot nonsense. They have to filter that junk out.
So the moral of the story is that Rossi has blown it so far with unverifiable "Rossi says" demos. You Rossi supporters need to encourage your hreo to be real and present credible data that is properly verified by independent third-party testers. Once the media gets a sense that this is real and has merit, then it will be reported. You simply cannot escape this fact of life no matter how hard you try, it will not go away.
The web is also part of the mainstream media. A search on "Andrea Rossi" gives you more than five million results.
All that Rossi has to do is actually deliver the goods in an unambiguous manner and have the results verified by independent third-party testers. That's the simple "secret formula" for success.
Chess: I responded to your allegations about me being a "paid informant" but you haven't acknowledged it. I am asking to to acknowledge it and take those comments down off of Rosemary's web site.
MileHigh
I, on the other hand, am of the opinion that all those lies and insults and innuendoes should remain in place, so that the imaginary lawyers can have something to chuckle over.
Even if they are removed or edited, I have images of the originals in my public Ainslie database... which now also includes some of those allegations.
Remember.... freedom of expression is critical to that forum. As long as you agree with Ainslie, that is.
Quote from: Gwandau on June 16, 2012, 09:16:51 PM
Dear Rosmary,
thank you for your interest, and yes, I am dedicating most of my spare time in my workshop engaged in three altogether different projects, but non of them LENR related.
I am a bit reserved when it comes to disclosing too much details regarding two of my projects, since they are in those stages of development where money has been invested into initial stage prototypes of which one just is being put through its first tests, and experience have told me not to disclose anything in the childhood stage of novel research. So I have decided to leave them out for the time being.
The above mentioned secrecy has nothing to with patents or anything in that direction, it is all about focusing ones positive creative energy so it doesn't get dissipated by the influence of possible negative observers. There is a lot more to it than meets the eye when dealing with research into uncharted areas.
Believe it or not, but novel research is dependent on far more parameters than the mere physical ones. Innovation is dependent on the intricate relationship between the observer and the observed, and the consciouness of the person executing the research is a determining factor in the active process of innovation.
The British biochemist Robert Sheldrake has devoted his entire career into the exploration of a new science he calls "Morpho-Genesis". He has found through statistical research that any new innovation takes a certain time to gain momentum in its function. For example, a never before done chemical experiment is performing very different results in the beginning, but the more times the experiment is performed, and the more people that has witnessed it, the more stable the chemical reaction becomes. And this is why anybody stumbling into a new area of free energy has to be very careful with to whom he or she initially introduces the new concept to.
At this point I am sure many readers are rising their eyebrows quite a bit. What the hell is he talking about?
This is fully understandable, since it is totally opposing the conventional view of our universe being rock solid in its dependence on never changing scientific fundamental laws. But believe it or not, reality is not rock solid rational, it is a soft system of interacting change, and consciousness has a very important and structuring creative role in it.
This is soo hard for the human rational mindset to understand, especially for the western conditioned mind who have been learned to believe in an unchanged continuance of same physical laws throughout the universe, but consciousness is not a result of matter. Matter is a result of consciousness. Or more clearly, the way we experience material reality fully depends on the instruments, or senses, that we are using to filter and read the surrounding energy matrix. Objective reality is an illusion.
This is the latest news from the Quantum Physics: If there is no one there observing, there is nothing there to observe. The observed needs an observer to gain form and structure, to manifest out of chaos into structure. Heavy stuff, but confirmed by Quantum Physics.
This insight is shared by my project consultant, who is a proffesional inventor in the wood industry sector. My own proffesion as a product developer for the coating industry has been of great help in organizing my research routines which are essential in optimizing so called research "windows" for minimizing unwanted parameters.
Now, since I for the time being cannot tell you anything about two of my projects, I will teel you about the third project, which actually is a project that if ever successful, will have a deep impact on us all. But the magnitude of the parameters involved in the implementation of this project is so paramount, that I doubt I will ever succeed in the implementation of it. Just the cost of building the first prototype will make me a very poor man with great loans, so I put my trust into the other two projects, thus hoping that the economic outcome of those will create the needed funding for this one.
This project is primarily aimed in the validation of the so called "Unity theory" by David Barclay, but if the experiments performed actually are validating the Unity theory, I will engage in an attempt to implement his unified field theory into a working device capable of harnessing this all encompassing underlying field that he emphasizes are the very cause behind the existence of all phenomenons, including matter, time and space.
Presenting this field theory, or even worse, my attempt to harness this field, would surely blow all the fuses in MileHighs "mental health" security detectors, so in consideration for his blood pressure and overall mental health, I won't go any further into this project here.
But for anyone interested in my project or the Unity theory, feel free to visit http://www.gravitycontrol.org/forum/index.php?topic=328.0 (http://www.gravitycontrol.org/forum/index.php?topic=328.0) were I have combined an easy read introduction into David Barclays Unity theory with my own attempts to understand the physics behind the extraterrestrial drive which apparently are utilizing this field for zero time travel.
So, dear Rosemary and all those that hopefully made it through the above text without getting too upset or intimidated,
I hope it answers your question about my partaking in the quest for new energy sources.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
Thank you for letting us in on your personal experimentation you are involved with. I wish you the best in your endeavors. Please keep us updated on your progress.
Best Regards,
Chess
Chessnyt,
I will, open source is the only way to get rid of the global grip of the Morgans, the Rockefellers and the Rotchild families, who are planning really
nasty things behind their Federal Reserv curtain, things even more nasty than their past actions of free energy suppression. Today they control
most of the world economy through their extreme wealth combined with their association with the World Bank. Most of the earths governments have
little mandate compared to these three families. (If you download and watch the movie "Thrive", you will get the full meaning of the above statement.)
Overunity.com will be the first to know of any experimental progress of mine, and I cannot stress enough the extreme importance of going open source.
We are today standing at a fork in the road, where things may go either really bad or become a transition to a new reanissance for mankind.
Among many other strange things that will appear in the years to come, refuse to accept the GPS-chip inplants that in a near future will be introduced as
a national obligation to all citizens. Also, we are soon going to experience a staged global pandemic situation, refuse the fear induced vaccination schemes.
It is far more to these events than the official picture.
Go local on every level. Local banks, local energy source, local food and so on. Otherwise we are bound to face the results of dark schemes almost beyond comprehension.
The e-cat is tailor suited for going local. Together with solar cells the e-cat will be able to stay off the grid daytime, batteries charged during the day
will enable accumulated heat to flow in your radiators during the night.
Gwandau
Chess:
You still haven't taken your comments down from Rosemary's forum and you haven't acknowledged my posting in this thread telling you in no uncertain terms that I am not a paid agent for anything or anyone.
So what gives, Chess? Tell us what you really think.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 18, 2012, 09:03:39 PM
Chess:
You still haven't taken your comments down from Rosemary's forum and you haven't acknowledged my posting in this thread telling you in no uncertain terms that I am not a paid agent for anything or anyone.
So what gives, Chess? Tell us what you really think.
MileHigh
MileHigh - what are you thinking? That you may criticise me personally and our work generally while you - nonetheless - remain free from reference on our forum? If you want to effectively silence us from criticism of your manifold troll activities then the best way to secure this object is to stop being that troll with continual reference to me on THIS forum. And may I add - your latest nonsense on little TK's thread - is reaching a level of propaganda that is so 'stereotyped' that it's almost comical.
I realise why you're that anxious. We're winning this argument. Slowly but surely. Of COURSE you'll be looking to advantage yourselves wherever you can. You're losing your edge. But to try and insist that your forum name - not even your true identity - is never referenced in the context of a troll - is absurd. It would be a gross constraint on our freedoms of expression. And it would be a gross abuse of the truth. Are you some sort of censoring 'freak' - like your Nazi forebears? Those less than savoury characters that forged our science of propaganda? Because that CERTAINLY would prove you to be that troll.
Rosie Pose
And may I add. I am entirely satisfied that you and TK and others are PAID to intervene against any plausible over unity claim - which is your mandate.
As ever,
Rosie
Rosemary,
So you think that you are a big smart-ass now, don't you Rosemary? I have told you not to call me a troll multiple times so you want to shake your fanny for all to see and you work in the word 'troll' as many times as you can in your reply. Good old 'kindest as always' gutter trash Rosie Posie.
Listen, you know exactly what the definition of a troll is. A troll is not somebody that disagrees with you. That's what you are attempting to imply. I disagree with you with reason and I have 35 years worth of experience in electronics under my belt. So you calling me a troll is just a gratuitous display of willful stupidity on your part and you are not fooling anybody.
I am not anxious and you have already lost. Just do the dim bulb test with your setup.
What I said about you on TK's thread is absolutely true. You are no different from our friend Lawrence with his "lead-in-lead-out" energy theories. You have no idea what you are doing, you don't understand how an inductor works and you don't understand how a capacitor works and you had a near-meltdown when Poynt asked you to do a power analysis of a single resistor connected to a battery.
Just do your testing without playing the ridiculous "MIB/Big Oli" card. You are an insignificant amateur 'researcher' that barely knows what she is doing and the oil companies don't have the slightest clue that you even exist. You can safely assume that they are not even aware of these forums.
MileHigh
QuoteAnd may I add. I am entirely satisfied that you and TK and others are PAID to intervene against any plausible over unity claim - which is your mandate.
Well then, I suppose that I would say that your brain is failing to process information properly. Note that when push comes to shove and you cut through the hype the fact is that we still are waiting to see one single erg of over unity energy being produced by anybody. That's a lot for the Powers That Be to be worrying about.
Not actually MilesOfMisinformation...
Quote from: MileHigh on June 19, 2012, 12:39:33 AMNote that when push comes to shove and you cut through the hype the fact is that we still are waiting to see one single erg of over unity energy being produced by anybody. That's a lot for the Powers That Be to be worrying about.
We've got Rossi's E-Cat on line - and there's always TK's results when he finally gets to do an energy measurement. And then there are our own tests that now, for the first time - are up on a forum that is NOT cluttered with the DENIALS that are your best argument. Over unity results all over the place. How does that fact sit with your digestion? With your head that far up that it cant focus on all this groundwork?
Rosie Pose
Rosemary:
The E-Cat, if it really works, is not free energy in any way, shape, or form. You are just demonstrating to the readers how truly ignorant you are. They can take that into account when they consider your proposition that a pulsing coil is a magical source of energy. Sounds familiar, just like Joe Newman and dozens of others making a living off of the 'magical coil fantasy.'
Your own tests will clearly show under unity, if you are able to do them properly and you don't simply zone out and get 'creative' with the results.
QuoteOver unity results all over the place. How does that fact sit with your digestion?
Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S7kg1IhZ7M
Quote from: Gwandau on June 18, 2012, 08:27:27 PM
Chessnyt,
I will, open source is the only way to get rid of the global grip of the Morgans, the Rockefellers and the Rotchild families, who are planning really
nasty things behind their Federal Reserv curtain, things even more nasty than their past actions of free energy suppression. Today they control
most of the world economy through their extreme wealth combined with their association with the World Bank. Most of the earths governments have
little mandate compared to these three families. (If you download and watch the movie "Thrive", you will get the full meaning of the above statement.)
Overunity.com will be the first to know of any experimental progress of mine, and I cannot stress enough the extreme importance of going open source.
We are today standing at a fork in the road, where things may go either really bad or become a transition to a new reanissance for mankind.
Among many other strange things that will appear in the years to come, refuse to accept the GPS-chip inplants that in a near future will be introduced as
a national obligation to all citizens. Also, we are soon going to experience a staged global pandemic situation, refuse the fear induced vaccination schemes.
It is far more to these events than the official picture.
Go local on every level. Local banks, local energy source, local food and so on. Otherwise we are bound to face the results of dark schemes almost beyond comprehension.
The e-cat is tailor suited for going local. Together with solar cells the e-cat will be able to stay off the grid daytime, batteries charged during the day
will enable accumulated heat to flow in your radiators during the night.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
I can see that you are very well informed concerning the Illuminati, the Federal Reserve Private Bank (which is no more federal than Federal Express and was signed into law in 1913 by President Wilson) and the energy monopolists. You're certainly batting 1000% here.
I did see the documentary "Thrive" and was quite impressed with its presentation of the materials discussed therein.
I, too, believe the E-Cat is currently our best option as an energy source to end the Fossil Fuel Age as it not only solves the world's energy crisis and steep fuel costs but it also solves the global pollution problem simultaneously.
I am very delighted to see that you are definitely part of the solution and not part of the problem.
Best Regards,
Chess
Not sure what is the real problem out-there and what is the solution...
IMHO, if we take the following well known truth:
“With great power comes great responsibilityâ€
then the real question is:
What would the great responsibility for regular citizen be if given to him/her for free that great power of say 100kW (50-500kW?!) per capita?
Best regards,
Tinu
Quote from: tinu on June 19, 2012, 08:30:56 AM
Not sure what is the real problem out-there and what is the solution...
IMHO, if we take the following well known truth:
"With great power comes great responsibility"
then the real question is:
What would the great responsibility for regular citizen be if given to him/her for free that great power of say 100kW (50-500kW?!) per capita?
Best regards,
Tinu
@Tinu:
The real problem is corruption in high places of government and society.
The author is referring to people endowed with an above average amount of wealth or political power or a great concentration of both. It is a warning to those in high places to be wise stewards and not to waste, abuse or misuse their place or position in society to carry out corrupt schemes. It also serves as a guarantee of a much greater accountability than those who were entrusted very little in life in comparison.
This paraphrased quote was used by Joe Kennedy when he lectured his sons on the necessity of being responsible concerning the affluent heritage they had been born into. It inspired one son to become a President of the United States, a second son to receive the nomination for president and a third son to become a Senator.
The Kennedy brothers were inspired profoundly by the talk their father had given them. They realized that it was a shameful waste to squander their position and opportunity to serve their fellow man.
A great majority of the leaders in our political system are driven by greed and special interest groups. They are inspired by bribery rather than integrity. Their motives are selfish rather than selfless. Such was not the case with John and Robert Kennedy. They truly led with sincerity and purpose choosing to serve their fellow man rather than be served. They were both very rare examples of true American Patriots who sacrificed to better their country.
As far as the average citizen having access to "free" energy (which I don't believe will happen because LENR based systems use a fuel source that is NOT free); If this were the case, then they all would be equal thus the above "well known truth" would not apply. Like I stated above, the author is referring to people endowed with an above average amount of wealth or political power or a great concentration of both.
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: tinu on June 19, 2012, 08:30:56 AM
IMHO, if we take the following well known truth:
“With great power comes great responsibilityâ€
that's not a "truth"... LMFAO
it's an
opinion of voltaire... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on June 19, 2012, 07:31:19 PM
that's not a "truth"... LMFAO
it's an opinion of voltaire... ::)
@Wilby:
Thank you for the correction. The similar quote that I was referring to (and Joe Kennedy used in his lecture to his sons) is from Luke 12:48 ("For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.") This is why I called it (Voltaire's quote/opinion) a paraphrased version of the quote from the Bible.
Best Regards,
Chess
@Everyone:
When "60 Minutes" was preparing for an updated special in which cold fusion would again take center stage, they picked their scientific experts with great care. After all, they were only interested in the truth even if that truth included a complete debunking of the technology.
They carefully selected Dr. Robert Duncan as an independent scientist (with no axe to grind either way) "to look at some cold fusion claims. Duncan was selected on the recommendation of the American Physical Society because he was a recognized expert on measuring energy. After visiting an Israeli company, Energetics Technologies, and examining their cold fusion experimental results, Duncan came away convinced that anomalous excess heat was quite real."
Dr. Duncan also explained the ramifications of his honest efforts concerning the latest "60 Minutes" piece on cold fusion:
Duncan remarks that he has faced criticism for his position on cold fusion and talks about one angry Ivy League professor who chastised him for being involved in the 60 Minutes story. Duncan states his position that, "the scientific method is a wonderful thing, in my opinion it’s time to stop growling at each other from separate sides of this issue and apply the scientific method to figure out what’s going on."
The full article can be found here:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/06/robert-duncan-on-cold-fusion-and-the-scientific-method/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/06/robert-duncan-on-cold-fusion-and-the-scientific-method/)
Regards,
Chess
Loner NOTA BENE
There is NO explanation of cold fusion or LENR within the standard model. You really need to get your head around this fact.
Regards
Rosemary
Quote from: Loner on June 20, 2012, 12:35:04 AM
Chess, that is excellent. I wanted to comment on some less recent posts for a moment.
Just as a stupid reminder, we all should remember that "Overunity" operation of a device is already a proven fact.
NOT a free energy device, as that applies to any hydroelectric plant, as use of falling water doesn't "Cost" anything. This is one reference for the difference between "Free" energy and Overunity. (I've posted a whole paper on that already, so I won't say more. Agree or disagree as you will.)
For those who don't remember, or wish to forget, I am referencing the paper published on the conversion of an electric field from high voltage into actual physical motion with no current draw. Very little power generated, as in nowhere near enough to claim any "Prize" that might be available, but enough to prove the concept. They were VERY careful to prevent any ion flow and accounted for leakage, etc. This paper is still around, of course.
IMHO, that ends the conversation on Overunity. It DOES exist. Producing a useful amount of power, even enough to light an LED, has not been publicly announced that I know of, but having the knowledge that there MUST be a method for increasing this effect should certainly offer some incentive.
I guess this is another of those little items that no one cares about, as it's just information, not a useful device. For me, the search for knowledge is priority one, so I guess it means more to me than some. Oh well.
A least I can assume one thing as straight "Data". An LENR or "Cold Fusion" device (Not the same thing, by the way...) may be easily considered a free energy device, at this time, but IS NOT an overunity device. I'm sure some will disagree, but they are just using a different definition for "Free Energy". If I were to release a working TPU device, then an LENR device would not even be a "Free" energy device anymore. Saying more would be redundant.
(For reference, the link to this paper is on this forum, though I can't remember where. I offered to post another copy a year or two ago, but got no takers. I may still have a copy, but I would have to recover it from archive as I only have 2TB of on-line data space available and my energy library is well over 10 times that. OK, I'm a data pack-rat, and save everything, or I used to. Have no time for such these days. After seeing a magnetic field plot, posted on another thread, showing large propagation without large power, and waiting for ANYONE to make a comment on it, I decided that I am too far "Out there" for most. Gwandau, I do understand and long ago accepted and proved some of what you said. I'm too chicken to specify completely, especially on a public forum.)
@Loner:
Personally, I am pushing for LENR technology for three major reasons and others that are a little less significant.
1. It is imperative to bring in a more affordable energy source to stabilize the economy and prevent unpredictable spikes that could lead to another economic collapse.
2. We need an energy source which is clean and environmentally friendly to prevent another Gulf Oil Spill, nuclear melt down and unhealthful air quality conditions (smog reduction).
3. Once mainstream society has accepted the truth about LENR technology, then other sources of energy will be explored and introduced without the harsh criticisms and stigmatisms that LENR researchers have had to endure.
These are my main reasons to make sure that this technology is not passed up as it is viable today to at least heat our homes and water. Tomorrow, it holds the potential to completely remove us from the grid. In a few year's time, it could easily power our transportation as well.
I agree that other solutions are out there, but unless the most viable one is introduced to the people now, the others will surely never make it beyond their infancy to fruition.
Best Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Rosemary Ainslie on June 20, 2012, 12:38:10 AM
Loner NOTA BENE
There is NO explanation of cold fusion or LENR within the standard model. You really need to get your head around this fact.
Regards
Rosemary
Rosemary
Its the Cracks that let the Light in.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120618111823.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120618111823.htm)
Dave 8)
Quote from: Loner on June 20, 2012, 12:53:12 AM
Rose, Could you possibly show me anywhere that I stated that LENR COULD be modeled by the standard model, in it's current form?
If I did, that would be stupid of me, because I know of NO-ONE who can exactly describe the workings of such a device. Can You?
If you cannot factually describe the operation, you cannot say for a fact that it is or isn't. right?
I certainly would never knowingly make such a rash assumption.
Please tell me how I mistakenly got that insinuation to you, as that is against all I know and do, to make such a statement. (Like I really know what goes on in an LENR device. I don't, and will NOT make such assumptions at this time.)
Actually Loner, what I'm referring to is the fact that any over unity device is also potentially 'free energy'. If you can exceed one then the potential exits for it to be exceeded infinitely. And there is absolutely nothing within our standard physics that allows for this. There's no subtle distinction between what's free and what's calculated to be over unity. That is - until we've found an alternate source of energy. And no-one has yet found that elusive 'source'.
Regards again
Rosemary
Quote from: firlight on June 20, 2012, 05:47:22 AM
Rosemary
Its the Cracks that let the Light in.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120618111823.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120618111823.htm)
Dave 8)
Hi Dave. I read that link. It's good news. I would love to hear your 'take' on LENR. If you're up for it? I think that you're one of the few of us who'd be well qualified to comment. I envy you your experience in the field. MOST distinguished work address - if my memory serves.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
A single parameter (Ro/Lambda) combines, albeit crudely, the effects of all the forces at work within the lattice. A Host Lattice & Embedded Particle combination are compatible with Cold Fusion (in the sense that the so-called “Coulomb Barrier†is actually a resonantly transparent mirror), if & only if the Schwinger Ratio is closer to an ODD than an even integer with a 99.7% accuracy, which has the physical interpretation as to whether the de Broglie wave of an excited particle fits into the potential well between two adjacent bound particles. This is called the QRT principle (Quantum Resonance Triggering). The Coulomb barrier is indeed “resonantly transparent†at certain energy levels of an excited charged nucleus.
Gravock
What is this preoccupation with fusion. As I understand it fusion involves taking water and producing helium. Can't drink helium. Can't breathe helium. So they get these reactors on line and start turning water into helium how long before us monkeys who walk erect turn the oceans of the world into deserts producing a bunch of garbage and human waste.
Thanks loner for the input. I can just envision huge factories going through cubic kilometers of water a day making junk for profit.
Quote from: sparks on June 21, 2012, 11:07:56 PM
Thanks loner for the input. I can just envision huge factories going through cubic kilometers of water a day making junk for profit.
@Sparks:
You can't be serious about this misinformation (LOL)
@Everyone:
Today, Rossi gives more information concerning the 600C E-Cat unit testing:
Bob K
June 22nd, 2012 at 11:34 AM
Hello Andrea Rossi…….Could you tell us how long the 600C reactor has been running continuously?
Sincerely ,Bob K
Andrea Rossi
June 22nd, 2012 at 11:59 AM
Dear Bob K:
We are testing the 600 C E-Cat since a couple of months, and we had to resolve problems that emerged. We will continue the tests for at least another month, after wich we will publish a report. In this precise moment I am testing it, and it works, it works.
Warm regards,
A.R.
Enjoy,
Chess
Chessnyt,
In the light of the 600 C e-cat, I am kind of losing interest in the low temperature home units which I have ordered,
since my reason for ordering four of them is due to the possibility to do some back engineering in order to create a controller
that allows for serially connected units enabling electricity generation, just like the 1MW unit, which is nothing but serially controlled
home units.
Thus it would be far more convenient if Andrea Rossi made single units of the high temperature version available for purchase
before the low temp unit launch.
So I would quite self evidently prefer one 600 C unit to four low temp ones, even if it would cost twice as much as 4 low temp units.
It's such a great improvement that I expect lots of people who have preordered home units to think just like me.
(This guy Sparks sounds drunk or something, he seems quite unable to understand the simple answer posted by Loner.
Either stupid drunk or being a new version of troll, spamming the thread by simply posting nonsense.
I think any further communication with Sparks just is wasting thread space.)
Gwandau
Gwandau:
I assume that you have not paid any money up-front for the four home units you ordered. I recall that it's more of a mailing list that you registered on so your name is in the database.
Here is an important question for you: What are you going to do with an E-Cat that generates 600 C steam? It's a serious question.
Thanks,
MileHigh
MileHigh,
A 600 C unit would be comparable to any type of 600 C steam producing heat source.
It all depends on how you use the heat source, taking into consideration the parameters involved.
I myself have a 800 degree furnace that generates 90 C water to my home. There are no obstacles to
change my present system into a steam generator that drives an electric generator.
Same goes with the 600 degree e-cat.
I will use it for electricity generation, just as I stated.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
This is not my area of expertise in terms of the equipment and what's available and all that but I fear you are expressing a desire to do something without considering all of the issues and costs involved for electricity generation.
You would need a turbine + generator (may exist as a single unit) and a transmission, transformers, heat exchanger, pumps, who knows what. If you can't modulate the power output of the E-Cat then you would need to sell power back to the grid, if that is even allowed where you live. If you sell power back to the grid then you need sophisticated electronics to keep your power generation setup synchronous to the grid. If you can't sell power back to the grid and you can't modulate the power output of the E-Cat then you have huge problem for disposing of the excess power. That might mean that you have to get rid of it in the form of heat. Your neighbours might not appreciate the "heat pollution."
I am not going to do the research but if we assume that it would be necessary to create your own local 10 Kw steam-driven power plant, and you only have industrial sources for components, then it might cost you between $50K and $100K USD above the cost of your E-Cat to create your own home power generation system. If you are very wealthy and want to pursue it good luck.
Plan B would be to wait and see if an industrial ecosystem develops around the 600 C E-Cat and perhaps the costs might come down.
Just as a single separate stand alone thought experiment: Think just about the turbine and the transmission and the generator. If you assume that you are working with industrial-grade parts that will last for say 30 years, just those parts alone might cost $50K.
The only way for this technology to make it down to the "one in every home" ideal is for the cost to come down to some reasonable level. If it's too costly it will never make it into the home. That's why I think that medium and large-scale power plants are the right fit for this technology.
Just do the thought experiment for a second and remove yourself from the psychology of the free energy forums. The average person does not want to have a nuclear reactor and steam turbine mini power plant in their house. All that they want is cheap electricity.
MileHigh
Please excuse me for posting without thouroughly researching the particular device in question. I was under the impression that you need a proton donar in a fusion reaction. I may have been mistaken in that the proton donar was going to come from a hydrogen molecule. The present wattage consumed by human activities at present is close to a tetrawatt a second. I have no idea how many protons you need to fuse to produce a tetrawatt second but I imagine it is considerable.
MileHigh,
for me it's all about getting off the grid.
So your plan B depends upon the time getting there.
I can hear from you that you are not used to think outside the box when it comes to practical solutions.
Why should I buy a brand new turbine, when it is a lot of fully functional ones to chose from at any of the many industry dismantling merchants all around us.
I have one such merchant within an hour drive which sell anything you can imagine from the industrial sector. Last time I visited there, they for example had a
huge set of thousans gallon stainless steel heat exchangers newly arrived and dismantled from some industry. Those cost a fortune new.
And the best of all, the price for anything at such a place always goes by metal cost per weight!
Just the other week at a local industry auction they sold several fully functional and serviced generators in the 100 KW size for a tenth of the original prize.
And used electric generators at this level of quality will last for another ten years without having to change any parts.
When it comes to safety valves and other parts connected to the safety implementation, I will of course buy new industrial grade parts.
Regarding transmission, here out on the countryside when you build your own sawmill, most of us use the engine and transmission from a big diesel truck and modify it to suit our needs.
And I can think of several ways to regulate the RPM to suit the shifting load of the generator. Here at these latitudes where I live there will never be any problems with excess load or heat,
I assure you. There will always be space for an additional greenhouse or two, especialy when planning to get off the grid.
When you live like I do, one gets used to solve everything by yourself, gaining experience along the road.
I bet I will get together what I want for a fraction of what you think.
Gwandau
Quote from: sparks on June 22, 2012, 09:41:13 PM
Please excuse me for posting without thouroughly researching the particular device in question. I was under the impression that you need a proton donar in a fusion reaction. I may have been mistaken in that the proton donar was going to come from a hydrogen molecule. The present wattage consumed by human activities at present is close to a tetrawatt a second. I have no idea how many protons you need to fuse to produce a tetrawatt second but I imagine it is considerable.
sparks:
You are correct, but at this very moment we are killing everyone and everything on earth at a rate that is already 1000 times faster with the way we generate energy now. I guess you would just need to choose, faster or slower.
Gwandau:
We have two different visions. For me this would have to be the "real thing." You have commercial, industrial, and military-grade components. The turbine would have to be the proper industrial-grade turbine designed for this type of application. Same thing for everything else. You realize it would be like having 1/2 of a jet engine in your basement. You are talking about something far beyond the realm of home-brew building by going to auctions and junkyards to to piece something together yourself. You have to go and shop around and buy real parts off of real companies, or used parts of the same quality. It would have to be done on a whole different level.
At least that is the way I see it. This is serious stuff if you want to get true proper 60 HZ 120 VAC or 50 Hz 240 VAC at a 10 Kw power level. There is no room for error here. Everything would have to be up to spec and be the real real thing. Again, I am not going to surf to figure out how to do it. It would take me a few months of part-time surfing to give you a real answer.
MileHigh
This technology could buy us some time. The ultimate solution is of course to live within our means as a species. This constant plundering of natural rescources to support a population out of control is madness. It leads and has lead to wars disease and destruction for thousands of years at least. How dumb can we get. Are we expected to forever repeat the mistakes of the past. .
@MileHigh,
thanks for respecting my point of view, even if you don't share it, or even believe it to be feasable.
That's quite OK, I am fully aware of what I am capable of, and experimenting with different approaches to high speed turbine
generated electricity can be both fun and safe, I assure you. You just have to know what you are doing, that's all.
The guys involved in this eventual project all are proffesionals in the machining and tool industry with their feet steadily on the ground.
So don't worry. And this is just the type of project that I will keep you all updated on if or when it starts.
@sparks,
mankind is slowly awakening into the insight that grandmother earth is an interdependent living being made up by many small interconnected parts,
just like we ourselves are made of small living organisms clustered by the DNA code into a human being.
This insight will soon reach full potential in the light of all the atrocities we have performed upon our precious gem called Earth.
Our means as a species may be to harness the energy from the sun, or the energy hidden in the atomic nucleus,
or even by tapping the very fabric that creates matter and space.
What is absolutely clear is that the old monetary system have failed to create a sustainable and clean earth with happy and healthy people.
Instead it has been used to create a gigantic differential in life quality resulting in suffering beyond comprehension.
We are all here to thrive and prosper, and there is enough for everyone.
The only reason we all are not happy and healthy are because of the organized greed of a very few.
I recommend everybody to watch the documentary "THRIVE".
http://www.thrivemovement.com/ (http://www.thrivemovement.com/)
It explains exactly why there is suppression, who are behind the supression, and how we will be able to get rid of it.
This documentary is by far the most well founded and intriguing there is concerning the present situation on earth.
The gigantic research behind it not only discloses the actions of the three families in charge of this planet, but also reveals
absolutely stunning information about the reason for the crop circles being here and the exact similarity of the patterns to ancient findings,
as well as the whole setup behind the free energy suppression schemes and their origin.
And what makes this movie so great is that everything presented is hard data, backed up by valid references.
Dont' miss this movie. There is no documentary like this.
It's a must see.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
I watched he Thrive movie and I was not too impressed. It's just another sales pitch. I mean that in a very generic sense, just like you can argue that various religions and various political systems and social contracts are just another sales pitch.
For getting a more complete sense of this subject, something that you are passionate about, then you should also look at opposing views. Then you can weigh both sides in your mind.
I did the Google search "Thrive movie critique" and from looking at the search results I can see that there are lots of other resources worth reading. If you don't do that search and spend a few hours reading from the other side then you are missing an opportunity to do yourself a great service.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
you really are a mystery to me.
Unlike others in this thread, I still refuse to place you in the troll division, since you actually are reasoning logically from your point of view.
And I refuse to regard you as a man without a heart.
But where on earth do you come from? (and I don't mean geografically)
I cannot believe that you have managed to blindfold yourself against the simpleness in the message in the movie "Thrive".
Where are your heart and spirit?
Are you maybe a person totally lacking any spiritual experiences, only believeing what is physically confirmed by scientifically approved means?
If that is the case, I can only say that I am very sorry for you, since you are totally missing a great part of the magic of being alive.
Where are your communication with the whole? Or do you actually believe that life is a freak accident in a universe mostly filled with dead matter?
Do you really believe that there even is such a thing as dead matter? What makes you believe that?
Have you never shed a single tear for mother earth and her suffering billions?
What does your heart tell you when you look around at all the misery and organized crime against humanity, openly executed by our governments?
Do you actually believe in the goodwill of the authorities in your government?
Do you actually believe that western governments are engaging into wars to make life better for the people in those countries?
Do you actually stand up behind our monetary system? Believing it to be a fair game?
MileHigh, I am stunned.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
You are oversimplifying and asking loaded questions in an attempt to put words in my mouth. You seem to be forgetting the concepts of plurality of thought and tolerance. All that I asked you to do was do a search to open your mind. You find the movie enlightening and I am just asking you to enlighten yourself even more.
From that search, a link comes up from the Thrive website itself:
http://www.thrivemovement.com/john-robbins-critique-of-thrive-movie-humanity-and-sanity
Here is a quote from the beginning of the statement:
QuoteHumanity and Sanity
Standing for a Thriving World
(and challenging the Movie Thrive)
By John Robbins (http://www.thrivemovement.com/pioneer?article_id=530&article_title=John%20Robbins)
Thrive is the name of a richly produced and controversial film that asks, and attempts to answer, some of the deepest questions about the nature of the human condition and what is thwarting our chances to prosper. Elaborately funded, with appealing imagery and beautiful music, it features interviews with many leading progressive voices. And yet ten of these leaders have taken the highly unusual step of signing a statement formally disassociating ourselves from the film.
Why have Amy Goodman, Deepak Chopra, Paul Hawken, Edgar Mitchell, Vandana Shiva, John Perkins, Elisabet Sahtouris, Duane Elgin and Adam Trombly, as well as yours truly, gone to the trouble of signing our names to this public statement?
“We are a group of people who were interviewed for and appear in the movie Thrive, and who hereby publicly disassociate ourselves from the film.
Thrive is a very different film from what we were led to expect when we agreed to be interviewed. We are dismayed that we were not given a chance to know its content until the time of its public release. We are equally dismayed that our participation is being used to give credibility to ideas and agendas that we see as dangerously misguided.
We stand by what each of us said when we were interviewed. But we have grave disagreements with some of the film’s content and feel the need to make this public statement to avoid the appearance that our presence in the film constitutes any kind of endorsement.â€
I have joined the other signers of this statement, even though there are aspects of the film that I find beautiful and inspiring, and even though the makers of the film, Foster and Kimberly Gamble, are old friends.
In Thrive, the Gambles have attempted to address some of the crucial challenges of our times. I appreciate their idealism, their commitment, and their passion. And I agree with them about some things they state in the movie and on their website --- such as that the political system is depraved, the Federal Reserve has been used to consolidate economic power, fiat currency tends to produce a corrupt financial system that depends on ever increasing debt, the tax system is unfair, and enormously powerful economic interests often collude with one another to deceive and defraud the public. I stand with them as they promote the labeling of genetically engineered foods and in their desire to see our nation cease spending enormous sums on war. I appreciate that they support local and organic agriculture, their passion for credit unions and local banking, and their opposition to governmental invasion of privacy. They recommend many action steps that I support.
But I do not agree with some of the core conclusions they draw. Nor do the other signers of the statement of disassociation from Thrive. Duane Elgin, one of the signers, says: "Thrive is idealistic, naive, narrow, shallow, and focuses attention away from more productive areas of engagement."
MileHigh
look at the pdf
Even the person quoted as disassociating himself from the film still stands behind many of the points made in the film. I have highlighted these key points with bold print below:
Quote from: MileHigh on June 23, 2012, 09:01:43 PM
"In Thrive, the Gambles have attempted to address some of the crucial challenges of our times. I appreciate their idealism, their commitment, and their passion. And I agree with them about some things they state in the movie and on their website --- such as that the political system is depraved, the Federal Reserve has been used to consolidate economic power, fiat currency tends to produce a corrupt financial system that depends on ever increasing debt, the tax system is unfair, and enormously powerful economic interests often collude with one another to deceive and defraud the public. I stand with them as they promote the labeling of genetically engineered foods and in their desire to see our nation cease spending enormous sums on war. I appreciate that they support local and organic agriculture, their passion for credit unions and local banking, and their opposition to governmental invasion of privacy. They recommend many action steps that I support."
So as you can see above, the key points of the film are truly endorsed even by those who are "disassociating" themselves from the movie.
I would personally recommend the following author and financial insider:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcw2Xz9fxIY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcw2Xz9fxIY)
As you can see, Steven Sadleir gives you a great summary of what his book is about that he is promoting on YouTube, however, even if you do not read the book, I HIGHLY (MILEHIGHLY) recommend viewing his series of videos explaining some of what is elaborated on in his book.
If you really want to find the truth, Mr. Sadleir gives it to you but if you want to believe in fairy tales and that the whole world is Disneyland and nothing more, I would stay away from the above mentioned link. I would not wish to awaken those who are comfortably asleep.
Regards,
Chess
I will again pose the question about the preoccupation of scientists with the fusion process. The casmir effect (hope I spelled that correctly) is real. Tom Bearden has the mathmatics (and also the dare I say lost mathmatics excluded by Lenz when constraining his work to closed circuits) which mathmatically supports the existence of vacuum fluctuations at every point in the Universe. Casmir provides us with the experimental validation of Bearden's mathmatical therom. And Rossi has built a converter. So what's the big deal besides the politics of the situation. (oh never mind I think I just answered my own question)
Quote from: sparks on June 24, 2012, 02:05:53 PM
I will again pose the question about the preoccupation of scientists with the fusion process. The casmir effect (hope I spelled that correctly) is real. Tom Bearden has the mathmatics (and also the dare I say lost mathmatics excluded by Lenz when constraining his work to closed circuits) which mathmatically supports the existence of vacuum fluctuations at every point in the Universe. Casmir provides us with the experimental validation of Bearden's mathmatical therom. And Rossi has built a converter. So what's the big deal besides the politics of the situation. (oh never mind I think I just answered my own question)
@Sparks:
What's the big deal? Oh, well I suppose...it is...EVERYTHING! This "converter" (Rossi's E-Cat and other advanced LENR devices) changes absolutely everything and not just politically speaking. Here's a few things that makes this a BIG DEAL:
o It changes our fuel suppliers and this is a VERY BIG DEAL.
o It changes our utilities industries.
o It changes our pollution problem.
o It changes the stock market values.
o It changes our dependence on foreign oil.
o It bankrupts or severely destroys nations that currently export oil as their number one export (Consider mainly looking at the middle East and Persian Gulf regions).
o It changes the transportation industry.
o It changes the cost of living used in C.O.L.A. analysis.
o It changes all company's costs to produce goods and provide services making them more affordable.
o It opens up a slew of new jobs and employment opportunities not only producing the technology, but also retrofitting the existing technologies worldwide as well.
o It decreases the motive for waging wars based on coveting other nation's resources to the point of murder and plunder.
o It decreases the amount of money received by corrupt political officials thus leading to the repealing of corrupt legislation in which only the corrupt have benefited from in the past.
o It provides the means and opportunity for the masses to finally (or once again) become self reliant if they so desire to.
o It wipes out a huge tax base that corrupt governments have misused as a secondary tax system to generate addition revenues (gas taxes tacked onto fuel prices at the pump).
So as you can see, this "fusion process" really doesn't change much ::)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: sparks on June 24, 2012, 02:05:53 PM
I will again pose the question about the preoccupation of scientists with the fusion process. The casmir effect (hope I spelled that correctly) is real. Tom Bearden has the mathmatics (and also the dare I say lost mathmatics excluded by Lenz when constraining his work to closed circuits) which mathmatically supports the existence of vacuum fluctuations at every point in the Universe. Casmir provides us with the experimental validation of Bearden's mathmatical therom. And Rossi has built a converter. So what's the big deal besides the politics of the situation. (oh never mind I think I just answered my own question)
The Casimir Force can be both attractive and repulsive. This force isn't caused by vacuum fluctuations, but is due to light decelerating while interacting with the free electrons or nucleuses of the metal which creates a force. This observation explains why on two parallel uncharged plates separated by short distance, appears the attractive Casimir effect. When we apply a voltage difference this turns to a repulsive Casimir force. Below is the equation for the complete Casimir Force. I'm not disputing that all of space is filled with a sea of particles which are charged, or, in field language, when a charged field has a nonzero vacuum expectation value. However, what I am disputing, is the "Casimir Force arises from those vacuum fluctuations". If the vacuum fluctuations isn't responsible for this force, then Casmir doesn't provide us with the experimental validation of Bearden's mathematical theorem.
Gravock
Quote from: chessnyt on June 24, 2012, 03:04:52 PM
@Sparks:
What's the big deal? Oh, well I suppose...it is...EVERYTHING! This "converter" (Rossi's E-Cat and other advanced LENR devices) changes absolutely everything and not just politically speaking. Here's a few things that makes this a BIG DEAL:
o It changes our fuel suppliers and this is a VERY BIG DEAL.
o It changes our utilities industries.
o It changes our pollution problem.
o It changes the stock market values.
o It changes our dependence on foreign oil.
o It bankrupts or severely destroys nations that currently export oil as their number one export (Consider mainly looking at the middle East and Persian Gulf regions).
o It changes the transportation industry.
o It changes the cost of living used in C.O.L.A. analysis.
o It changes all company's costs to produce goods and provide services making them more affordable.
o It opens up a slew of new jobs and employment opportunities not only producing the technology, but also retrofitting the existing technologies worldwide as well.
o It decreases the motive for waging wars based on coveting other nation's resources to the point of murder and plunder.
o It decreases the amount of money received by corrupt political officials thus leading to the repealing of corrupt legislation in which only the corrupt have benefited from in the past.
o It provides the means and opportunity for the masses to finally (or once again) become self reliant if they so desire to.
o It wipes out a huge tax base that corrupt governments have misused as a secondary tax system to generate addition revenues (gas taxes tacked onto fuel prices at the pump).
So as you can see, this "fusion process" really doesn't change much ::)
Regards,
Chess
The reality of the situation is that this device or any other device that involves anamolous heat gains will just contribute to the rate of enviromental destruction by man. The water vapor is increasing in the atmosphere due to water's ability to convert infrared radiation to heat. As it gets hotter more water vapor and it gets hotter and more water vapor. This fusion process will be used ultimately to heat the atmosphere. What is needed is an endothermic reaction utilizing the existing heat in water vapor to drive a neuclear transition that is endothermic therefore sequestering atmospheric heat in atomic structure. This way we take large amounts of prexisting excessive thermal energy unleashed in the enviroment and sequester it in atomic binding energy or useful chemical compounds like fresh water.
I do agree with Cheesnyt that this is a very important development and must be followed and kept in the light. It will be interesting to see the corporate owned scientific communities reaction. The scramble for control of the raw materials to build them and the governement licensing and taxing authorities who descend on it like a pack of vultures. Even more interesting is what the public will be allowed to learn of the implementation of this new technology. I would also hope that Dr.Rossi continue with his research and figure out how to use his device to so something more than heat water. It appears the sun does a great job of that already.
sparks,
the earths climate fluctuates quite naturally like it have done for many millions of years.
The whole planetary system is self balancing, the more vapor in the atmosphere converting sunlight into heat,
the more clouds are formed, cooling the whole thing back to balance.
The recent period of increased temperature on earth is nothing new, it happens regularly with intervals
well known by scientists in the historical geology field. Greenland has been green many times before,
and the polar bear have been forced to move closer to the poles each time.
Global warming is not a hoax, but the cause behind such changes have been modified to fit the schemes of the IPCC,
telling us that it is caused by human activities.
There are actually not many scientists able to present any signs suggesting such a scenario, contrary to what IPCC tries
to impose upon us. Most of the climate scientists just have decided to back up this theory, without directly dealing with
the research behind it.
Of the two thousand so called scientists said to back this up, only about four hundred are academic scientists,
the rest are political lobbyists connected to the IPCC. Of the four hundred real scientists said to back this scenario up,
many have demanded to be disassociated from the list in protest to the assumptions stated in the IPCC global warming report,
but only one of them have succeded to get his name off that list, when he threatend the IPCC to drag the whole thing to court.
You must have heard about the so called "Climate-Gate" scandal, where two journalists exposed the two head scientists behind
it all to be adding false information to enhance their theory about man induced global warming. It is well known by climat scientists
that the global temperature started to deviate from being parallel to human industrial growth in the early 90:s, and that it never was
parallell to the industrial growth between 1900 and 1960, a period of intense industrial growth where a clear connection should be
present if man made global warming was true.
On the other hand, there has been a clear connection between the activity of the sun and the resulting formation of clouds on earth
wich in turn affects the temperature. The physicist Henrik Svensmark at Danish National Space Center in Copenhagen have proved that
the formation of clouds are dependent upon the electric charge value of the sulphuric acid particles in the atmosphere, making the water
vapor attach to the charged particles, thus making the formation of clouds possible. Without those charged particles, there would be
no clouds in the atmosphere, only water vapor.
The sulphuric acid particles get their charges from being exposed to cosmic radiation, and the weaker magnetosphere shielding earths
atmosphere, the more charged particles.
So adding to this discovery is the fascinating conclusion that the more active solar flares, the bigger gets the magnetosphere reaching
out from the sun, in turn resulting in a more effective shielding from cosmic rays.
This means that when the solar flare activity is high, the shield is strong, decreasing the amount of cosmic rays into earths atmosphere,
in turn decreasing the degree of cloud formation, which as a result causes a global warming.
And when the solar activity is low, lots of cloud formation, cooling the planet down.
Now, what is really interesting is that Henrik Svensmark have proved scientifically that the temperature on earth have been directly
following the solar flare activity without deviation.
But his discovery was very unwelcome and supressed by IPCC during the international climate conference in Copenhagen 2009,
since his discovery directly threatend the climate agenda in progress, and his discovery has been supressed since then, since no one
want to miss any fundings for their scientific research by opposing the main agenda of the IPCC.
So I would say, sparks, that your worries about any global heat gains caused by the e-cats is far fetched to say the least.
Humanity is good at polluting the atmosphere. But warming it up puts us in a totally different legaue, where we dwindle into nothing.
The sun in combination with its solar flares is what causes global warming.
Gwandau
There would be no clouds if it wasn't for the pollution coming out of oil and coal burners and volcanoes? I won't get into climate gate other than to advance the possiblity that the scientists involved intentionally did what they did to be discovered later. . Climate change is real and it doesn't matter what started it. If fusion is going to be a tool for same old power structure we're all screwed. If it is accompanied by let me say a spiritual reawakening of the entire planet then we got a chance at actually building a planet instead of raping it.
sparks,
I agree, most of us seems to have forgotten how to love our rare planet, and how to express this love in our daily actions.
Unfortunately we tend to realize things afterwards, when things are lost.
For example, most of us wake up every morning without expressing any joy for having a sound heart beating steadily.
We all take that for granted. But the day you get your first heart attack, you start each day thanking life for another day.
This goes for our attitude towards our life giving mother earth as well. When her delicate interdependent ecological system finally
fails due to the immense strain put upon her organs and she goes into shock and stops functioning, then no change in attitude or promises will help.
When the human body is expressed to injury, causing a couple of our internal organs to reach their limit of function, something starts to happen
with the whole body which the physician calls "system failure". This is the point at which the body as a whole suddenly stops functioning, and dies.
Our planet may be closer to a "system failure" than we know.
One thing is for sure, if we keep going like we do, our grandchildren will ask us why we didn't do anything when it still was possible.
And this will become a weight upon our hearts of such a magnitude that no one will manage to bear it.
So all inventions that minimize the present pollution and eases the violation upon mother earth, like the energy harnessed from LENR, which, provided
that LENR manages to overcome the supression schemes, will prove to be of paramount importance to the wellbeing for our planet and all her inabitants.
Gwandau
Sparks
Quote:
If it is accompanied by let me say a spiritual reawakening of the entire planet then we got a chance at actually building a planet instead of raping it.
End quote
Funny thing ,I feel like this could be possible [an awakening] if handled properly.
Come to think of it ...........
I have no doubt the two of these things will go together
An understanding of "How its done" [harvesting energy from the sea of energy].
and a spiritual awakening !
??
Good to read you again Sparks!!
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Gwandau on June 26, 2012, 07:25:30 PM
So all inventions that minimize the present pollution and eases the violation upon mother earth, like the energy harnessed from LENR, which, provided that LENR manages to overcome the supression schemes, will prove to be of paramount importance to the wellbeing for our planet and all her inabitants.
@Gwandau:
I agree as the supression attempts by entire governments is already underway.
Recently, a gentleman by the name of David Hook wrote to The Department of Energy & Climate Change UK to find out their official stance on LENR technology. The response confirms that they are fully aware of the upcoming technology, however, they are sadly NOT being very receptive.
I would like to break down their response in multiple segments and comment on each segment separately. Here's their response:
"...a number of reactor designs and technologies proposed for operation around the world" Here they acknowledge LENR based technologies as they appear to be aware of several different companies soon to enter into competition with one another.
"Industry has not indicated that they would be looking to deploy them [LENR based energy devices]
in the UK." So here they are basically saying that they are speaking on behalf of their entire United Kingdom population and every company owner as well and saying that their people are completely NOT INTERESTED in saving money, widening their profit margins and preserving their environment.
"We understand that both Industry and a majority of the scientific community view the claims of the University of Bologna with some significant skepticism, particularly towards whether a nuclear process is taking place. Guiseppe Levi, who arranged a demonstration of Andrea Rossi’s experiment at Bologna, has concluded that more experiments are needed to ascertain what processes are occurring." Here they are saying that both the mainstream scientific community and all of their business/factory owners believe that LENR is not for real. A very dangerous game of denial is being played out here.
They go on to state that they
"...do not see this as a priority area for research, in the context of constrained budgets.†In other words, they are not going to lift a finger to help usher in something that could benefit their citizens and prevent them from being surpassed by smaller nations around them who will be reaping the benefits both economically and socially in the interim.
So in summary, it appears that Andrea Rossi's energy technological breakthrough is not good news for everyone. Especially if you reside in the U.K. It sounds like the government has already decided the matter on your behalf.
Best Regards,
Chess
Hey, don`t worry about us in the UK. Haven`t you heard. we have 10 Brand new NUKES on order! OK OK, there might be the odd accident, but I understand everything will be fine again after 240,000 years.
Quote from: Loner on June 27, 2012, 04:30:23 AM
Chess, I hope you realize that THIS type of response is the expected outcome. (I Mean, Come ON!!)
To put it simply, why would the most powerful people on the planet allow something that would destroy their power base to ever be released. This is just a dose of reality for any who don't truly have a grasp on the type of people that exist in the real world.
@Loner:
I expected a little more from the UK government as their economy is in dire need of a boost and this would be the shot in the arm that would not only lead to higher employment rates, but also wider profit margins for their corporate class as the cost of doing business will dramatically drop due to considerably lower energy costs (shrinking overhead).
In contrast to the UK dictatorship, the U.S. government has a much friendlier reception for LENR technology in spite of the fact that the largest oil cartels in the world reside here. Here's the U.S. government press release:
"Al Opdenaker [from The U.S. Department of Energy] was asked to give a statement on the position the department had on Low energy nuclear reaction and its recent developments. In an e-mail Opdenaker admitted that he had only learned of Rossi’s e-cat patent and device a couple of months ago and went on the endeavor to learn about this cold fusion device. He is confident that a lot of progress has been made in the field of LENR since 2004 and belies that updated DOE reviews might produce a different output. He insists to only speak about himself when he admitted to have been in the dark about the recent and rapid cold fusion developments produced by Andrea Rossi and other Inventors and Physicists as well. It was only when Opdenaker personally spoke to Dr. Dennis Bushnell a Chief Scientist for NASA Langley who explained to him that more than 100 Low energy nuclear reaction experiments had been conducted that confirmed that LENR was no longer a mere theory. Bushnell confirmed that now much greater energy could be generated through LENR than through conventional chemical reactions creating it radiation only on nano-scale, but he also explained that the process was beta decay rather than fusion in any way as the e-cat patent claimed.Opdenaker waved this argument off saying that he personally did not care what this process was called as long as it yielded results and it worked. He voiced his confidence in the effectiveness and productivity of Rossi’s e-cat patent and suggested that the involvement of the DOE was unnecessary."So you can see that this is clearly NOT the expected response from a super power. There's quite a contrast between these two conflicting positions.
I really feel sorry for the UK citizens who are going to have to play catch-up later on when it is allowed by their dictators. Hopefully, they will be able to catch up if they haven't already gone down the sink hole by then. They will definitely be at an economic disadvantage having to compete in the market place with their government's mandatory energy policy dictated to them leading to steep overheads that will make anything they produce cost prohibitive. Maybe their citizens will have to form a revolution like we had to do against this same dictatorship in the 1700's.
Best Regards,
Chess
Quote from: Loner on June 27, 2012, 04:30:23 AM
Chess, I hope you realize that THIS type of response is the expected outcome. (I Mean, Come ON!!)
To put it simply, why would the most powerful people on the planet allow something that would destroy their power base to ever be released. This is just a dose of reality for any who don't truly have a grasp on the type of people that exist in the real world. It makes me very sad. OK, I'll admit I'm biased in the "Been There, Done That" way, but I still don't see it happening, yet. I wish AR all the luck in the world. He will need it.
I'm keeping this short, so I deleted the rest, but I hope these words awaken at least one person.
Very well said Loner. :)
My concern here - notwithstanding Opdenaker's interest - is that we leave the authority to comment - ENTIRELY - to any department of energy. I think the true revolution will happen when more of those of you experimentalists - ON THE GROUND - start showing the ease with which this effect can be managed. Surely? Then who will be able to gainsay anything at all?
In any event. Roll on Rossi's E-cats. Does anyone know if his first products are still on line for September?
Regards
Rosemary
Quote from: chessnyt on June 24, 2012, 03:04:52 PM
@Sparks:
What's the big deal? Oh, well I suppose...it is...EVERYTHING! This "converter" (Rossi's E-Cat and other advanced LENR devices) changes absolutely everything and not just politically speaking. Here's a few things that makes this a BIG DEAL:
o It changes our fuel suppliers and this is a VERY BIG DEAL.
o It changes our utilities industries.
o It changes our pollution problem.
o It changes the stock market values.
o It changes our dependence on foreign oil.
o It bankrupts or severely destroys nations that currently export oil as their number one export (Consider mainly looking at the middle East and Persian Gulf regions).
o It changes the transportation industry.
o It changes the cost of living used in C.O.L.A. analysis.
o It changes all company's costs to produce goods and provide services making them more affordable.
o It opens up a slew of new jobs and employment opportunities not only producing the technology, but also retrofitting the existing technologies worldwide as well.
o It decreases the motive for waging wars based on coveting other nation's resources to the point of murder and plunder.
o It decreases the amount of money received by corrupt political officials thus leading to the repealing of corrupt legislation in which only the corrupt have benefited from in the past.
o It provides the means and opportunity for the masses to finally (or once again) become self reliant if they so desire to.
o It wipes out a huge tax base that corrupt governments have misused as a secondary tax system to generate addition revenues (gas taxes tacked onto fuel prices at the pump).
So as you can see, this "fusion process" really doesn't change much ::)
Regards,
Chess
Dear Chess,
This is VERY WELL SCHEDULED. Well done indeed.
Kindest regards,
Rosemary
@Loner:
I completely agree with your statement "If the MOST important device that man has publicly released is NOT considered important enough for DOE involvement, then what would it take for them to BE involved.". After all, the word energy is included in their very title and what priority could be above abundant, clean and affordable energy? It would be like the telephone company telling customers that problems with their telephone lines were not their problem.
Having said that, the point I was trying to make is AT LEAST a top official from that government department IS NOT saying that the technology is bogus as was the case with the UK's version of The Department of Energy. Instead, the U.S. DOE official is wisely listening and heeding the endorsement of a leading scientist at NASA. The UK government official, however, is obviously denouncing LENR technology and trying to hide behind obscure quotations as an excuse to dismiss the whole technological discovery or any further investigation into its validity.
Regards,
Chess
I would suggest that the ECAT is a device that is one of a long list of alternative energy devices that exploits zero-point. As far back as 1947 modern scientists verified and defined zeropoint. Basically this is when two forms of matter are caused to reside within the wavelength of the vacuum fluctuations. The casimer force arises. Protons that fuse do so because of zero-point. Gluons are vacuum fluctuation particles if you need to resort to particle theory. Since two quantom particles can not reside in the same state at the same place the protons fuse. They want to overlap in space but can not due to the Pauli exclusion principal so they become fused by converting their mass into radiant energy of various wavelengths, at a quantitative level established by Einsteins e=mc2 equation. ( Einstein had it backwards. Mass does not warp space-space warps mass but his conversion equation works anyway using the speed of light in a vacuum constraint) Matter caused to create a spacial seperation less than that found in the seperation of an electron smear in a 1sorbital begins to experience the casimir force. The vacuum wavelength can be altered by stressing it electrically to increase it's effective wavelength which results in gluon expansion. The subsequent collapse of the stressing field accelerates the matter as the gluon "net" returns to normal. Fusion then occurs and the "overlap" mass is converted. The common denominator in all these devices including those exploiting cavitation fusion-metallic crystal stimulation (ECAT)- piezo electric effects-magnetically self pinching plasma-
colomb explosions-plasma arc fusion- are all examples of "gluon netting".
@Everyone:
The latest waves of attack concerning the E-Cat appears to be in the form of fear mongering. We certainly have seen our share of this tactic used here.
Hank Mills wrote a recent article about this very tactic being used across the internet to try and muddy the waters for the arrival of the E-Cat onto the scene. Here's an excerpt:
More and more often I read statements like.....
"Do you really want a nuclear reactor in your back yard?"
"What if one of these devices produced a nuclear explosion during testing?"
"Does anyone know where Rossi is testing his E-Cats? I don't want to be anywhere close!"
"What about the radiation produced by these systems? If he is producing kilowatts of power the gamma radiation could kill everyone!"
Statements similar to the above are being spread across the internet by what appears to me to be desperate individuals determined to try and spread fear about the E-Cat, and slow the commercialization of the technology. They seem to be operating with an agenda to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to muddy the waters enough to disrupt the rapid progress that is taking place.
However it is not going to work because their fear mongering is obvious, and the E-Cat technology is inherently safe. In fact, it is safer than many technologies already on the market, and several devices you can already purchase at any local hardware store.
The full article can be found here:
http://pesn.com/2012/06/28/9602119_Desperate_E-Cat_Dectractors_Spreading_False_Safety_Concerns/ (http://pesn.com/2012/06/28/9602119_Desperate_E-Cat_Dectractors_Spreading_False_Safety_Concerns/)
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on June 29, 2012, 12:31:32 AM
However it is not going to work because their fear mongering is obvious, and the E-Cat technology is inherently safe. In fact, it is safer than many technologies already on the market, and several devices you can already purchase at any local hardware store.
The full article can be found here:
http://pesn.com/2012/06/28/9602119_Desperate_E-Cat_Dectractors_Spreading_False_Safety_Concerns/ (http://pesn.com/2012/06/28/9602119_Desperate_E-Cat_Dectractors_Spreading_False_Safety_Concerns/)
Regards,
Chess
The thing is, the fear tactics do work. Just not on everyone. They hope for a majority.
And kids today, they think drones are cool. You can buy your kid an RC drone with high def cameras. They will be numb to the idea that the real drones will be watching and killing. "Just like the video game Dad." Yea. Simple brain wash.
Ats just the way it is Chess. At least some realize it. ;] And some will never get it.
Mags
The simple truth is that you can't say one way or the other because nobody knows how the device allegedly works. And Hank Mills is a big-time fan-boy of Rossi. So grand sweeping statements that proclaim that the technology is safe and grand sweeping statements that proclaim that the technology is dangerous are both wrong. Just use your common sense.
Certainly people can speculate as long as they clearly indicate that they are speculating.
In a related matter, there are lots of grand sweeping statements that proclaim that "we are going to destroy most or all life on Earth if we don't come up with an alternative energy source soon" are nothing but politically correct propagandizing and parroting. Life on Earth is extremely robust and if changes happen, even major changes, then life will adapt and find a new balance.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 29, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
The simple truth is that you can't say one way or the other because nobody knows how the device allegedly works. And Hank Mills is a big-time fan-boy of Rossi. So grand sweeping statements that proclaim that the technology is safe and grand sweeping statements that proclaim that the technology is dangerous are both wrong. Just use your common sense.
Certainly people can speculate as long as they clearly indicate that they are speculating.
In a related matter, there are lots of grand sweeping statements that proclaim that "we are going to destroy most or all life on Earth if we don't come up with an alternative energy source soon" are nothing but politically correct propagandizing and parroting. Life on Earth is extremely robust and if changes happen, even major changes, then life will adapt and find a new balance.
MileHigh
@MileHigh:
This may be what you sincerely believe but I have news for you. You are sincerely wrong! This premise is completely and utterly false. WE DO IN FACT POSSESS THE ABILITY TO MAKE THIS PLANET UNINHABITABLE FOR ALL HUMANS AND ANIMALS ALIKE. This is a well known and undisputed fact (with the exception of yourself) that is absolutely true.
Without even going into all of the various types of pollution that destroy life, I'll just state one which shall suffice.
Nuclear technology is able to destroy this planet in such a way that it would be uninhabitable for 100's (if not thousands) of years alone. We do indeed have the ability to destroy our environment and completely ruin this planet contrary to your false information being presented above.
As you state "
Life on Earth is extremely robust and if changes happen, even major changes, then life will adapt and find a new balance.", life can not adapt to every change that we as human beings are able to make no matter how ROBUST you claim life on Earth is.
Chess
Quote from: MileHigh on June 29, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
In a related matter, there are lots of grand sweeping statements that proclaim that "we are going to destroy most or all life on Earth if we don't come up with an alternative energy source soon" are nothing but politically correct propagandizing and parroting. Life on Earth is extremely robust and if changes happen, even major changes, then life will adapt and find a new balance.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
that's quite a statement.
Do you have information that the rest of us here on earth does not have?
Then please give us data on the upper limits of what an eco system can take before breaking down.
The whole world will be thankful for your knowledge.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
I can easily answer your question. However, let me turn the tables for a second, I promise to answer it later.
QuoteDo you have information that the rest of us here on earth does not have?
What is the information that you have that suggests that all life on Earth is in imminent peril unless we do something? If you guys accept this notion as "universally understood" so that you don't even have to discuss it, then there must be some powerful logic behind this idea that everybody accepts.
So, what's your take on it? Same question for Chess. The "ultimate nuclear disaster" idea has been stated and duly noted. I would prefer to hear both of your thoughts, not just some cliches.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 29, 2012, 08:45:40 PM
Gwandau:
I can easily answer your question. However, let me turn the tables for a second, I promise to answer it later.
What is the information that you have that suggests that all life on Earth is in imminent peril unless we do something? If you guys accept this notion as "universally understood" so that you don't even have to discuss it, then there must be some powerful logic behind this idea that everybody accepts.
So, what's your take on it? Same question for Chess. The "ultimate nuclear disaster" idea has been stated and duly noted. I would prefer to hear both of your thoughts, not just some cliches.
MileHigh
always with the red herrings... ::)
Oh yes life is robust alright. Darwin's theory of evolution basially states that a species produces copious amounts of offspring in the hopes that mutants will survive nature's attacks. If this is the case then we find that it would be best that people reproduce within their family units and put the newborns out in the backyard to see if they survive. What we gonna do with the newone x3.14157. Oh put it out next to y.vector as long as it is antimate. If not deposit both to cesspool recycle center ...893 we have interesting results in the gas spectroscopy analysis of said units emission generating anomalous heat gains. Oh and by the way when was your last dna exchange your looking mighty fine. Biologists have found a feedback mechanism whereby the enviroment controls dna program activation if you will. Meoitic cells carry memory of enviromental conditions and what is working and what is not is passed on to successive off spring. This is not limited to meoitic cell replications. The production of chemicals that give us our sense of well being is also controlling what portion of our dna program that we activate as new cells rise from old on a second by second basis throughout our organism. Some of our species differentiation has spawned an evolutionary product whereby domination over other beings, whether it be other beings worship of them or simply killing other alive things, allows for activation of predatory encoding that advanced beings share with lower lifeforms of limited intellect such as snakes.. They are a subspecies of man who jumped off the evolutionary train a long time ago. The pyramids of Egypt are testimony to the rise of this subspecies to power. The nile river delta was deforrested and millions of lives wasted building glorified piles of rock. Something like modern skyscrapers owned by dream weavers.
MileHigh,
I think we are talking about two different frames of references here, and since it all boils down to the importance to back up
guys like Andrea Rossi instead of backing up the already upper hand supressors, I will here try to reach your understanding.
Even if you are not sure about the validity of Andrea Rossis claim, it does more harm to be aiding possible suppressors than
supporting someone you are at doubt about. By supporting highly possible breakthroughs like this, we would at least be giving
ourselves a faint chance of changing the present devastating course of mankind.
Yes, I know what you base your statement upon, and even a gigantic natural catastrophy like mass eruptions of volcanoes,
causing a long term freezing night on earth, will of course not make life extinct on earth, and within a few millions of years,
or even sooner, a new set of species will evolve and thrive according to a new ecological matrix.
You can stretch this even further: If you cooked all living cells on earth just as thoroughly dead as the parrot in the Monty Python sketch, experiments
simulating the primeaval soup on earth have indicated that life evolves out of nothing, if only the right surrounding conditions are there.
Given the right mixture and atmosphere, proteins spontaneously are forming into cell-like structures, and so on.
Likewise, if mankind continues to cause global oil and nuclear plant catastrophies in an evermore increased frequency,
we will of course still adapt and survive somehow.
But who cares about adaption to a shit situation, if we are the ones with the full ability to chose not to go down that road?
I am not worried about the continuation of life on earth, I am talking of the death of our present biological balance, and such a death
is much more dire that you seem to understand.
I am worried about the continuation of a healthy abundance of versatile interdependent complexity, making life on earth possible for the present number of humans,
and if you think the eco system is just a number of separate organisms that have found a way to use each other, then you really are stuck in the since long left backwaters.
Ecobiological science of today know everything is part of a whole in a context far beyond old fashion Darwinian evolution theory.
So what I am talking about is the liability to damage of the present eco system in a way that would directly change our ability to thrive on this planet.
Here is one example that is backed up by the scientific community:
If the bees get extinct, a majority of mankind, among many other species, will not survive six years on earth.
That is a hard fact, which is haunting the USA due to their unsolved problem of mass death of bees lately,
causing them to import enormous amounts of new bee hives every year. And bees are known to be very sensitive to pollution,
just like their fellow butterflies and many other insects.
If the bees goes, there is no other organism able to fully take its place for probably houndred of thousands of years or more.
(You know just as well as me or anyone else that the ability to reach the present complexity of the eco systems takes millions of years.)
Even if it was possible, who wants to adapt to a planet were most wild animals have become extinct, and monoculture is the main growth type?
That's just where we are heading in our present direction, through our repeatedly increased violation of the present ecological balance of earth.
If you continously deprive the variety span of species by making species after species extinct, you simultaneously deprive the ecological matrix of its parameters
needed to support the necessary versatility needed for a continous healthy abundance of such multiplicity.
The present abundance and multiplicity of the ecological system of earth is interdependent, if one species goes, several other dependent species also goes.
Adaption through loss of species is nothing but a very long term wound-healing activity, which makes all the surviving species suffer or die during transition.
Easy talk about such adaption feels shallow and non loving.
So talking about our planets ability to survive and adapt great environmental changes is like saying: I don't care if I cut my spine in two.
I can adapt, I don't need my legs or arms, I can use modern techniques and move my residues on an electric wheelchair, I can Google with eye movements.
I ask you again, where is your heart MileHigh?
Gwandau
@MileHigh:
I must agree with Gwandau here. Although I do believe that certain species have been driven into extinction never to return, be it by humans or natural occurring changes in the environment, I still agree with the statement "But who cares about adaption to a shit situation, if we are the ones with the full ability to chose not to go down that road?"
My take is simply this. We can continue to damage our environment and keep finding ways to adapt to it or simply choose the alternative route which would be to preserve it as best as we possibly can in the first place.
It's like a company manufacturing products. Which is the most profitable approach in manufacturing? Fixing or recalling a bunch of defective products or preventing the defects in the first place? You decide.
Chess
I don't think this child's parents would be too concerned with heat pollution from an ECAT driving irrigation pumps and crop harvesting machines.(http://johnbarban.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/starving_child-193x300.jpg (http://johnbarban.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/starving_child-193x300.jpg))
Chess:
With Hank's new article Rossi's stock is down down down. I'll discuss it in a later posting.
In the mean time, what about this?
What about this?
Chess:
Yes there is propaganda in the world. Just look at Sterling's web site, almost every company covered in the articles posted are actually fake propagandists peddling crap that doesn't work. Are you expecting the South African company to deliver on their promises of a motor-generator that produces free energy? We have been waiting for about 40 years to see a working physical "noble gas engine," do you think that we are going to see one in a few months?
If I made a few mistakes I already covered that in a posting several weeks ago. I said that I can't remember everything and I don't have all the details of the Rossi saga in my head so I may have made a few mistakes. I don't believe that you ever acknowledged that posting.
Take your junk allegations down. Be a man and show that you have some integrity. You are in a bizarro alliance with Rosemary. She is completely and totally deluded about her circuit and is quick to play the "MIB fantasies" game herself. She has nothing and is insignificant. Rossi, on the other hand, may have something, and we are waiting for him to deliver the goods. I am fully aware that academics have written papers on LENR but my focus is on Rossi and Defkalion.
Hank's recent article is indicating that there never was any 600C steam produced by a Rossi system. If that is really the case, then Rossi has Hank and many others jumping through hoops for him and creating a false narrative that is disconnected from reality. Hank's articles scream "super fan boi" so loudly that he himself is not credible. The "solid state E-Cat" is just an invention by Hank himself.
That article by Hank has cast a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt on Rossi and his whole proposition.
Quoting myself:
Quote<<< For those who are not aware, an extended test of around twenty high-temperature solid-state E-Cat modules is currently taking place. Each module has one reactor core producing approximately ten kilowatts of output. The units have been operating for around two months now and will continue operating for a few more weeks. >>>
Where is the 200 kilowatts worth of heat going and how is it being done?
Hank thinks Rossi is testing 20 "solid state" E-Cats that are producing 200 kilowatts worth of heat but never touches on where and how all of that heat is being disposed of. It's a farce.
So, in my mind, Rossi's stock dropped in value significantly because of the FUD sown by Hank. I know that's very ironic but craziness and kookiness is part and parcel of the free energy community.
Take the comments down and lose your fantasies of being a righteous free energy freedom fighter that has to ignore the "badthought" from individuals that disagree with you.
When is the next "we'll get it right this time" demo from Rossi going to be anyways? If there is no credible independent third party verification of an upcoming demo then it's very likely that Rossi will have blown it and will remain in relative obscurity.
Finally, what about the fantastical stories of developing a factory to produce "one million units per year." All of my instincts are telling me that that is a totally bullshit story. Can you offer up anything to convince me that the factory story is real?
MileHigh
Gwandau and Chess:
Going back to the issue of whether or not the Earth is doomed unless we find new alternative sources of energy, we can see that neither of you offered up a convincing argument. In fact, both of you indirectly conceded that this is in fact not the case.
Propaganda can come from anywhere, including environmentalists and people promoting the idea of free energy.
When somebody says, "We have to do something soon otherwise Man is going to destroy most of life on Earth" - it's a LIE. It's just gross and misleading propaganda just as bad as when the cigarette companies tried to convince people that cigarettes were not harmful to your health.
So when I hear nonsense like that it's doesn't get past my bullshit filter. That's an important thing to be aware of. Most of the people that make the same doom and gloom statements are just parroting what they heard and they have no idea if it is true or not.
Gwandau, you were parroting Tom Bearden when you claimed an electric motor was really some kind of magical device that was tapping into the vacuum, bla bla bla. That is 100% HORSE SHIT and you are just a victim of Tom Bearden's bullshit propaganda.
The truth is an important thing and you should not let it slip away and dumb yourselves down like some kind of supermarket checkout tabloid science drones.
I will give you one example from real life. Do you remember the "Biosphere 2" project in Arizona? That's were a dozen people tried to live in a sealed building with no material contact with the outside world. No air exchange, no water, no food, no nothing, like living inside an air-tight space station on Earth. They were supposed to grow their own food and get their oxygen from the plants.
When they filled the building with earth to make fields and plant crops, some dumb-ass smart-ass said, "Let's use pure topsoil, that must be better. Surely?" So they filled the building complex up with pure topsoil - let's say six feet deep. Note in reality that topsoil might only be a foot deep.
So what happened? All of the bacteria in the six-foot deep layer of topsoil represented a significant living mass. As the project went along, they noticed that the oxygen levels in the air were dropping and dropping over time, and if they went on for too long they would all die. So they had to cut the experiment short. The problem was that the bacteria in the six-foot deep layer of topsoil was consuming too much oxygen. If they only had a one-foot layer of topsoil the oxygen crisis would never have happened.
The whole "Biosphere 2" project was a farce done by people that had no real serious academic credentials - it was just an example of deluded people deluding themselves.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 08:22:17 PM
Going back to the issue of whether or not the Earth is doomed unless we find new alternative sources of energy, we can see that neither of you offered up a convincing argument. In fact, both of you indirectly conceded that this is in fact not the case.
Propaganda can come from anywhere
and we can all see that you didn't offer up a convincing argument for your opinion... ::)
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 08:22:17 PM
When somebody says, "We have to do something soon otherwise Man is going to destroy most of life on Earth" - it's a LIE. It's just gross and misleading propaganda just as bad as when the cigarette companies tried to convince people that cigarettes were not harmful to your health.
really? prove it's a lie. ::) it's your
opinion that it's a lie... and you know what they say about opinions...
where is the data on the upper limits of what an eco system can take before breaking down that you were going to present? you're still just babbling on with logical fallacies... you troll.
Quotewhere is the data on the upper limits of what an eco system can take before breaking down that you were going to present?
I never promised any data. Go back and look through the thread and show me where I promised any data on the upper limits of what an ecosystem can take. Can you read and think or is part of your play to just skew the facts? Strange coming from a man with your MO.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 08:54:09 PM
I never promised any data. Go back and look through the thread and show me where I promised any data on the upper limits of what an ecosystem can take. Can you read and think or is part of your play to just skew the facts? Strange coming from a man with your MO.
more red herrings? LMFAO
you gutless lying troll! and in point of fact i NEVER said anything about you promising... you said it and you must have remembered saying as you just said it again.. ::) idiot.
Quote from: MileHigh on June 29, 2012, 08:45:40 PM
I can easily answer your question. However, let me turn the tables for a second, I promise to answer it later.
Q.E.D
put up or shut up troll...
LENR is here to stay MileHigh, and so is Andrea Rossi and his innovation.
It's all too late to stop him, and he's backed up by the US navy, who keeps him guarded like a precious diamond.
And there is nothing you can do about it, besides panicking again and again into cynical pessimism at the slightest sign of doubtful
comments by people that does not even belong to those third party observers that repeatedly have confirmed the validity of the e-cat.
You are quite prone to rumours aren't you.
We who have found the e-cat to be a true story, we are on the other hand based upon the documentation of fully valid third party observations
performed by high academics in the nuclear science field.
It does not matter what you believe, these persons are reputable scientists, and these third party observations were flawlessly performed.
Why should we put any validity in those of you that repeatedly keeps nagging about statements not even originating from Andrea Rossi or
direct observations made by third party observers?
An what kind of person are you, who strikes down upon free science research instead of being encouraging?
If you don't believe in science research performed by non academic scientists, what on earth are you doing here at overunity.com?
Gwandau
You have no problems with compromising your integrity and making logical fallacies yourself, do you Wilby?
How do you equate my promise to answer with data on the upper limits of what an ecosystem can take. They are not necessarily the same thing, are they? You are pathetic in the lengths you will go to in search of an argument, little logical fallacy boy.
Maybe some dirty talk in Latin after this session will get you off.
Quote from: Gwandau on July 01, 2012, 09:03:24 PM
An what kind of person are you, who strikes down upon free science research instead of being encouraging?
he is a troll... a propagandist, a paid disinformation agent.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:08:02 PM
You have no problems with compromising your integrity and making logical fallacies yourself, do you Wilby?
denied... you wouldn't know a logical fallacy if it jumped up and bit you... this is just another red herring attempt to change the subject. changing the subject is not a cogent response milelow... ::)
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:08:02 PM
How do you equate my promise to answer with data on the upper limits of what an ecosystem can take. They are not necessarily the same thing, are they? You are pathetic in the lengths you will go to in search of an argument, little logical fallacy boy.
Maybe some dirty talk in Latin after this session will get you off.
you need two 'things' to equate anything... ::) read the post where you were asked the question you promised to answer and tell us all what follows after he asked you if you knew something the rest of the world did not. again tu stultus es...
are you going to answer or not?
you did promise...
YOU are pathetic in the lengths you will go to engage in logical fallacy... ::)
let's recap...
Quote from: Gwandau on June 29, 2012, 07:34:35 PM
MileHigh,
that's quite a statement.
Do you have information that the rest of us here on earth does not have?
Then please give us data on the upper limits of what an eco system can take before breaking down.
The whole world will be thankful for your knowledge.
Gwandau
to which you replied...
Quote from: MileHigh on June 29, 2012, 08:45:40 PM
Gwandau:
I can easily answer your question. However, let me turn the tables for a second, I promise to answer it later.
Gwandau:
I have told you many times, there is no independent third-party validation of Rossi's claims and the narrative associated with Rossi smells like it is a con job.
I am giving you my truthful impressions. My impressions could have been very positive if Rossi delivered the goods.
Right now, I have very little hope that Rossi will be completely vindicated on December 31, 2012, or on December 31, 2013.
I am giving you the straight goods based on my life experience and technical background and common sense.
Here is an example of some common sense: You can't set up a factory that's supposed to produce a million complex energy producing devices per year without some awareness of this project making it onto the Internet. It's IMPOSSIBLE in this day an age. Even small town newspapers have web sites. Just that fact alone is a very serious hit to Rossi's credibility.
MileHigh
Wilby,
The question is not the literal question that Gwandau posed. In addition, Gwandau's question is just a loaded rhetorical question that nobody can answer.
The real question asks how life is quite robust and relatively immune to stresses put on it. And Gwandau and Chess implicitly answered that question themselves because they implicitly conceded that we are in fact not at risk of devastating and wiping out most of life on Earth unless we find alternative sources of energy.
That is my whole point, that talk of destroying most of life on Earth is just talk with no substance. The Sun is powering the carbon cycle and it's inconceivable that any force created by Man could sufficiently interrupt the carbon cycle to cause a massive loss of life on Earth.
We know from the fossil record that there have been massive die-offs in the past and certainly Man was not responsible. The Earth eventually recovered and new species developed. This is all due to the fact the Sun pours thousands of trillions of billions of watts of power onto the Earth and life has evolved to take advantage of that resource.
So you can go masturbate in the corner now troll-bitch and close your eyes and recap tonight's fights while you wank.
MileHigh
more logical fallacy? LMFAO why am i even surprised anymore? ::)
@all: take note of what happens when you feed a lying troll.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
Wilby,
The question is not the literal question that Gwandau posed. In addition, Gwandau's question is just a loaded rhetorical question that nobody can answer.
so you were lying when you said you could easily answer it and promised to do so after you 'turned the tables for a second'... ::)
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
The real question asks how life is quite robust and relatively immune to stresses put on it. And Gwandau and Chess implicitly answered that question themselves because they implicitly conceded that we are in fact not at risk of devastating and wiping out most of life on Earth unless we find alternative sources of energy.
no, that's you propagandizing again trying to squirm away... ::) the "real question" is crystal clear in the record. furthermore, your 'argument' that what can be asserted without evidence, can be denied without evidence can just as easily be applied to your claim as it can be to chess' or gwandau's... and the reciprocal of that is also true. what can be denied without evidence (sound familiar? hint: it's your modus operandi) can be asserted without evidence.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
That is my whole point, that talk of destroying most of life on Earth is just talk with no substance. The Sun is powering the carbon cycle and it's inconceivable that any force created by Man could sufficiently interrupt the carbon cycle to cause a massive loss of life on Earth.
inconceivable? not really, in our hubris we have slowed the rotation of the planet with dams... so again, inconceivable is only your rather limited opinion... unless of course you have some incontrovertible evidence to present that supports your asinine false dilemma... i'll wait. ::)
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
We know from the fossil record that there have been massive die-offs in the past and certainly Man was not responsible. The Earth eventually recovered and new species developed. This is all due to the fact the Sun pours thousands of trillions of billions of watts of power onto the Earth and life has evolved to take advantage of that resource.
of course man wasn't responsible... ::) he didn't exist yet. and yet all of this is just more red herring... ::)
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:36:21 PM
So you can go masturbate in the corner now troll-bitch and close your eyes and recap tonight's fights while you wank.
MileHigh
so again... put up or shut up you lying troll.
and cue the lying troll's next logical fallacy in 3... 2... 1...
No I am not avoiding the real question and Gwandau's question was just a rhetorical question and you are fully aware of it.
I stand by everything I stated with a perfectly clear conscience. You, on the other hand are just a pathetic person that goes around looking for fights and for a significant percentage of the times you manufacture the fights by doing all sorts of spinning and twisting of what people are saying.
In other words, you go around lying in order to start confrontation because you get pleasure from that.
It's fucking sick, and you are a sick person as far as I am concerned.
You know the line:
Making you unhappy makes Wilby happy.
You are not here to engage people and discuss interesting ideas, you are the only real troll on this whole web site.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 01, 2012, 09:16:34 PM
Gwanday:
I have told you many times, there is no independent third-party validation of Rossi's claims and the narrative associated with Rossi smells like it is a con job.
MileHigh
Wrong, MileHigh, the third party validations performed has been done by independent scientists. QuoteHere is an example of some common sense: You can't set up a factory that's supposed to produce a million complex energy producing devices per year without some awareness of this project making it onto the Internet. It's IMPOSSIBLE in this day an age. Even small town newspapers have web sites. Just that fact alone is a very serious hit to Rossi's credibility.
Wrong again, you can easily keep anyone off your manufacturing grounds by mere trespassing restrictions, thus avoiding any leaks about what's inside.
By the way, who would care about an formerly empty facility among square miles of all kinds of factory buildings? Would you?
And backed up by the US Navy, eager to secure their interest in the project, you have an abundance of stealth possibilities at hand.
And you just don't seem to understand the paramount devastating result of a ecological breakdown.
It is soo obvious that you did not really read what I wrote about eco systems, the ignorance in your answer clearly shows that.
Get out of you intellectual prison, quit those stupid superficial theoretical references to either/or life extinction and welcome to a real and
very delicate interdependent ecological system that needs all your caring love to keep being as abundant and beautiful as she presently still is.
LENR will change the world - This time nobody will be able to stop it.
Gwandau
Quote from: sparks on June 24, 2012, 08:13:26 PM
The reality of the situation is that this device or any other device that involves anamolous heat gains will just contribute to the rate of enviromental destruction by man. The water vapor is increasing in the atmosphere due to water's ability to convert infrared radiation to heat. As it gets hotter more water vapor and it gets hotter and more water vapor. This fusion process will be used ultimately to heat the atmosphere. What is needed is an endothermic reaction utilizing the existing heat in water vapor to drive a neuclear transition that is endothermic therefore sequestering atmospheric heat in atomic structure. This way we take large amounts of prexisting excessive thermal energy unleashed in the enviroment and sequester it in atomic binding energy or useful chemical compounds like fresh water.
I do agree with Cheesnyt that this is a very important development and must be followed and kept in the light. It will be interesting to see the corporate owned scientific communities reaction. The scramble for control of the raw materials to build them and the governement licensing and taxing authorities who descend on it like a pack of vultures. Even more interesting is what the public will be allowed to learn of the implementation of this new technology. I would also hope that Dr.Rossi continue with his research and figure out how to use his device to so something more than heat water. It appears the sun does a great job of that already.
Nuclear Disruption & Contraction Theory:In the formation of the neutron from positrons and electrons, the fact appears that the radius of the group is smaller than the radius of any one of its units. In fact, the neutron radius is inversely proportional to the number of elementary particles in the ring. The law of conservation of spin with the accumulation of particles requires that the radius of the group is reduced as each particle is added. The same fact applies to the photon in the sense that the more energetic the photon, the smaller the size. All photons have half-integral spin.
We observe that the neutron must exist in a state of extreme compression. We conclude that in the process of disrupting a neutron back to its original positrons and electrons in the free state, the volume increases by a factor in excess of ten billion. In analogy with the general gas laws, expansion against forces of cohesion is a cooling process. Since these forces exist in terms of positron-electron attraction, any process which disrupts basic matter must result in cooling. In any practical application total separation back to original components cannot be expected, but the process of cooling must be present. In the realm of nuclear energy, the equivalent laws apply. Fusion is the equivalent of compression in the release of heat. The reverse of fusion is the nuclear disruption process which, by its very nature must absorb thermal energy. In the event that the disruption was instigated by cooling in the first place, the basis of a self-sustained reaction exists.
In short, we have nuclear fission, nuclear fusion (and/or LENR), and nuclear disruption. The nuclear disruption process is to instigate the collapse of the atom to release its total energy in the form of mesons (which will absorb thermal energy). This energy can be released only by the process of disruption as opposed to fission or fusion. The application of this energy to a starship can insure the fact that the entire universe is open to human exploration. The application of this energy along side LENR can be fruitful to the planet and all of it's inhabitants (As with anything else, only if it's used responsibly).
References are being withheld at this time. For those who are interested and do not qualify as a troll, please send a PM and I will provide more information on the contraction theory, the nuclear disruption process, the meson drive, and more. Please note, I will be on vacation this week, so my response to your PM may be delayed by a few days.
Gravock
LENR ho hummmmm. Zeropoint device. There are these self-righteous assholes in Sweden or someplace who have had a zeropoint machine running their little religious community for years. They don't think the world is ready for it. In order to adore aka kiss the ass of some imagined being who is gonna give them some kind of perpectual orgasm or something when they finally keel over-they have chosen to give the finger to love and compassion. The ancient Egyptian inbreds same thing. It is some sort of insanity that develops from inbreeding that results in a physcosis whereby the inbred has this feeling of superiority as well as all the other symptoms of physcosis like hearing voices telling them what to do. They use other insane people like hitler who was a methamphetimine freak and distributed meth to all his brainwashed troops in some kind of fuckedup superiority common delusion when in reality it was a bunch of meth freaks running around with guns killing or raping anything that wasn't arayan. The highly publicized extermination of various groups by this evil play using hitler as the patsy has allowed for the military-industrial-religious complex to continue it's control of life on earth as it has for millenia. Zionists invaded palestine and the stage is set for world war 3. That idiot elf bush was so mentally flawed he couldn't even keep his lines straight. Daddy and Cheney must have spent hours mentally abusing sonnyboy after all his miss takes. Money is an imagined thing. It is not real. It use to be an exchange of time. The native americans had no counterfeit problems. They traded in jewelry that took time to make. It was worth just as much time as it took to make it. If you wanted to make money you made fucking money. This jewelry was then traded for commodities that took just as many hours to deliver as it took to make the jewelry. The amount of time to acquire the commodities like shell fish or venison was computed and the trade was made. Unlike nowadays when money is created with a few keystrokes on a computer keyboard or getting someones mark on a worthless piece of paper. Profit economies always collapse. If you buy something and sell it and your bottom line shows profit and do it over and over again pretty soon somebody is going to figure out your making money, which of course is an imaginary thing and not real, and the only people who are allowed to make money are the deceivers who control our various thought processes through lies-deceptions-illusions-propoganda-paranoia. They are masters of human phsycology and know how to push our buttons. Until you become aware of these practices you are a) ignorant and choose to hide your head in the sand like a stupid big bird. b) you are a coward and choose to escape reality rather than deal with it.
Gwandau:
There may have been test tube validations of LENR, but I am still a bit suspicious in that case. I am talking about validations of the E-Cat. There have been no independent validations of the E-Cat, period. If there have been, show me some links please.
I disagree with your comments about the factory. In fact, I disagree with the whole concept of setting up a factory production line without a finished design. Many references have been made about an automated production line and it doesn't smell right. Do you remember this PESN headline, "Ismael envisions one million charging stations by the end of 2011." There are zero charging stations for Ismael's non-existent car that runs on "vacuum energy." Right now the factory has about as much credibility as Ismael's one million charging stations.
QuoteAnd you just don't seem to understand the paramount devastating result of a ecological breakdown.
It is soo obvious that you did not really read what I wrote about eco systems, the ignorance in your answer clearly shows that.
I would understand the paramount devastating result of an ecological breakdown - if there was one. There is no impending collapse on the horizon and like I said, all of the ecological doomsday scenarios are just hysterical rhetoric with no sound basis in fact.
What would you think if the Mediterranean Sea were to dry up? Can you imagine posing that question to some people? They would freak out and proclaim that it would completely upset the world's ecosystems and cause an uncontrollable ecological disaster. Well, in fact that actually happened and the world is still here. As long as the Sun shines and pours down energy on plants and algae then the bottom of the food chain is there to sustain everything else in the food chain. The sun powers the carbon cycle which sustains all life on Earth. Life is so pervasive and it exists almost anywhere. There are even bacteria that live in the fuel tanks of jet airplanes. Life is very robust and very strong as long as the sun shines. Many people forget that or they are completely ignorant.
QuoteGet out of you intellectual prison, quit those stupid superficial theoretical references to either/or life extinction and welcome to a real and
very delicate interdependent ecological system that needs all your caring love to keep being as abundant and beautiful as she presently still is.
Like I said, it's not as delicate as you state. If you wiped out all of the elephants, tigers, lions, and giraffes in the world it would be a very unfortunate thing, but life will adapt and carry on. It will not "upset a delicate balance" and bring about a major collapse, that's just a fantasy. As long as the energy source is there to sustain life, then life will continue on.
Let's see if there is a single functioning E-Cat anywhere in the world by December 31, 2013. I am talking about something that is non-military and being used for home or industrial use and has been independently verified.
And you know what? If there is no E-Cat functioning anywhere in the world there is already an explanation for the die-hared rabid free energy fanatics. The explanation is that "Rossi sold out to the military." It's so predictable sometimes.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 02, 2012, 03:04:28 AM
There may have been test tube validations of LENR, but I am still a bit suspicious in that case. I am talking about validations of the E-Cat. There have been no independent validations of the E-Cat, period. If there have been, show me some links please.
I disagree with your comments about the factory. In fact, I disagree with the whole concept of setting up a factory production line without a finished design. Many references have been made about an automated production line and it doesn't smell right. Do you remember this PESN headline, "Ismael envisions one million charging stations by the end of 2011." There are zero charging stations for Ismael's non-existent car that runs on "vacuum energy." Right now the factory has about as much credibility as Ismael's one million charging stations.
I would understand the paramount devastating result of an ecological breakdown - if there was one. There is no impending collapse on the horizon and like I said, all of the ecological doomsday scenarios are just hysterical rhetoric with no sound basis in fact.
What would you think if the Mediterranean Sea were to dry up? Can you imagine posing that question to some people? They would freak out and proclaim that it would completely upset the world's ecosystems and cause an uncontrollable ecological disaster. Well, in fact that actually happened and the world is still here. As long as the Sun shines and pours down energy on plants and algae then the bottom of the food chain is there to sustain everything else in the food chain. The sun powers the carbon cycle which sustains all life on Earth. Life is so pervasive and it exists almost anywhere. There are even bacteria that live in the fuel tanks of jet airplanes. Life is very robust and very strong as long as the sun shines. Many people forget that or they are completely ignorant.
Like I said, it's not as delicate as you state. If you wiped out all of the elephants, tigers, lions, and giraffes in the world it would be a very unfortunate thing, but life will adapt and carry on. It will not "upset a delicate balance" and bring about a major collapse, that's just a fantasy. As long as the energy source is there to sustain life, then life will continue on.
Let's see if there is a single functioning E-Cat anywhere in the world by December 31, 2013. I am talking about something that is non-military and being used for home or industrial use and has been independently verified.
And you know what? If there is no E-Cat functioning anywhere in the world there is already an explanation for the die-hared rabid free energy fanatics. The explanation is that "Rossi sold out to the military." It's so predictable sometimes.
MileHigh
There is only one troll on this web site and we all know who it is.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 02, 2012, 03:04:28 AM
And you know what? If there is no E-Cat functioning anywhere in the world there is already an explanation for the die-hared rabid free energy fanatics. The explanation is that "Rossi sold out to the military." It's so predictable sometimes.
MileHigh
And you know what? If there is no E-Cat functioning anywhere in the world there is always only one explanation for the die-hard orthodoxy fanatics. The explanation is that "Rossi was a fake." It's so predictable sometimes.
Gwandau
@Everyone:
Today, Rossi responds to a question regarding the release of the first mass produced LENR product:
Nixter
July 2nd, 2012 at 12:11 PM
Engineer Andrea Rossi,
There is an interesting new Poll at E-Cat World, http://www.e-catworld.com/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/)
Who Will Produce the First Mass Market LENR Product?
Leonardo Corp. (A. Rossi)
Other
I voted that Leonardo Corp. (A. Rossi) will be first.
Do you think I am right? You are perhaps the only person in the world who knows the answer to this.
Andrea Rossi
July 2nd, 2012 at 12:43 PM
Dear Nixter:
We are already producing plants. Your choice is right and easy.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Chess 8)
Chess:
A "Mass Market LENR Product" means that they are inquiring about a home product or a commercial product for industry. This would not apply to the container with the individual pods. Note Rossi's reply is "We are already producing plants" which would seem to imply the container system.
I also note that these questions posed to him are nearly always very sycophantic in nature. Hank Mills is the worst offender in that department.
One can speculate that if Rossi actually had some action going on, like say a team of 50 people working on the setup and production line for a "mass market LENR product" then he would truly have something to say when the question was posed to him. Perhaps something like, "we have done pilot runs of 50 beta test units" or "our factory is in the final stages of rolling out our first home (or industrial) units" Instead, we get this dry reply lacking in any real content, "we are already producing plants."
Without any substance in Rossi's reply, it sounds like he is brushing off a sycophant, and nothing more. At the same time, if Rosssi really and truly had something substantive to say, then human nature being what it is, he would probably have given some details, even if they were only sketchy details.
I would love for this to be real and perhaps the test tubes are going to prove that it is real. But if it is real then Rossi does not sound like the person that is going to bring it to fruition. There just doesn't seem to be any meat on the bone.
Who comprises Rossi's development team? I am not aware of any discussion related to that. My gut feel is that Leonardo Corporation's footprint in the USA is just a single room Rossi's condo in Miami. I sincerely hope it's more than that.
The narrative for this story, specifically the Rossi E-Cat story, not the published results story, still does not look real and still is not inspiring. In upcoming months we we see what happens. If we start getting news that looks credible and sounds substantive, then perhaps my opinion will change.
Let me illustrate my point with this PESN article, "A Visit to Inteligentry," the infamous noble gas engine brothers.
http://pesn.com/2012/06/19/9602113_A_Visit_to_Inteligentry/
A claim is made by John Rohner that they have a "noble gas engine" that can output tens of kilowatts of power.
Here is someone's comment from very early on in the discussion:
<<< Generators are not loads. They can be conveyances to loads. There is no evidence of any test stands. There is no evidence of a load bank or other power dissipative device that could handle even the smaller 20kW or the larger 30kW which would only correspond to 40HP, not the 150HP claimed. Let's not forget the bogus claims to 300kW. >>>
Do you get the point? How many times in the realm of free energy have you read that somebody has some kind of motor that can output 10 or 20 kilowatts? I have read it dozens of times myself. If you make that claim then you must have some test apparatus to measure that output power - a huge generator connected to a huge resistive load bank, something! And if you have that load bank you are sure as hell going to put it into your pictures of your equipment. Yet all the Rohner brothers can show if pictures of their alleged noble gas engines and nothing more! They are con artists running a 20 year long con.
Unfortunately, with Rossi right now we are in similar territory. No pictures of production line robots being uncrated, no pictures of end-of-line test stations, no discussion of a software engineer working in conjunction with an electrical engineer and an LENR scientist to develop the control system to control the heat generation and heat extraction from the reactor core, nothing.
Again, human psychology being what it is (and I am just speculating as a lay person here), if Rossi had a core team of a software engineer, an electrical engineer, and an LENR scientist working on the control system that has to be at the heart of every home E-Cat you could expect that he would mention it or at least drop hints about it.
I will repeat, I could have a totally different view of this whole story if things seemed right. If the tests were unambiguous and verified by third parties, if we heard something about the development team or the team setting up the factory, SOMETHING.
I have met hundreds and hundreds of engineers and I have been in dozens and dozens of high tech factories and I know what is involved in launching a product on the scale that Rossi is talking about and I have reasonable expectations on what we should be seeing right now in this ongoing narrative. We are simply not seeing what I believe we should be seeing.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
Since you seem to be completely unaware of the enormous threat this has to the oil industry and their whole infrastructure,
you will probaly never be able to understand the predicament that Andrea Rossi is subjected to.
He is fighting a war against absolutely real enemies.
Why is it that you don't seem to grasp such an obvious fact?
Are you really that ignorant??? I don't believe so. There must be another reason for your ill-suiting stupor.
Of course he doesn't fit into your mould as how a serious inventor ought to act.
This invention does not fit at all into anything previously encountered in the industrial history, and Andrea Rossi is fully aware of the implications resulting from this. This brake-through has the same magnitude as the big early innovations that made up the very foundation of the industrial age, with one extremely important difference. The other guys changing history did not have any dominating world wide company to fight against, they were the first ones, totally unchalleneged.
I repeat for the thousand time: The guys behind the world dominating oil industry are totally dependent upon their oil industry.
Do you think these guys would just say:
"Hey, look at this wonderful inventor, who has come up with a device that will make our sales go down to nothing in a few years. Wow, that's really great! Lets give him a hug and take a big step aside."
Give me a brake!
How would you do if you were in AR:s position? Would you really think it is just to show the world what you have got, and everyone would salute you? Even the big ones you just have "killed"?
STUPID STUPID STUPID beyond rescue would you be in that case, and I hope that you never will do any important breakthrough that seriously threatens anybody that powerful, since it would just be a waste in our predatory world.
If you want to compete with these guys all the way to their industrial death and your own world dominating corporation, wich is the magnitude of an invention like the E-Cat, keep in mind that your enemies will do whatever they can to stop you.
I have to ask you three questions here at this stage of our communication, since your attitude feels artificial and strangely rigid.
What on earth are you doing on this forum? Do you really believe in the possibility of great discoveries in small garages?
Or are you just a guy hating that possibility?
I want you to show us all here who you really are.
Your answer will determine my interest in any further responding to you posts, and I have a feeling this goes for ohers here as well after reading your answer.
As far as I am concerned, avoiding this question will terminate my communication with you, since I have a bad feeing about who you really are.
Gwandau
@MileLow:
I'd have quoted the entire disinformation rant but who's going to take the time to read through that novel again? I mean all it was missing was chapters and a forward.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 03, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
I have met hundreds and hundreds of engineers and I have been in dozens and dozens of high tech factories and I know what is involved in launching a product on the scale that Rossi is talking about and I have reasonable expectations on what we should be seeing right now in this ongoing narrative. We are simply not seeing what I believe we should be seeing.
I have been involved in setting up high tech factories myself (even ones with sophisticated robots ::) ::) ::) ) and I can tell you first hand that NOT ONCE did the factory owners publish their progress in a newspaper or call in a news crew to do a story. NOT ONE TIME! NOT EVEN ONE TIME! They never even considered doing such a thing!
Quote from: MileHigh on July 03, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
A "Mass Market LENR Product" means that they are inquiring about a home product or a commercial product for industry. This would not apply to the container with the individual pods. Note Rossi's reply is "We are already producing plants" which would seem to imply the container system.
It is obvious to MOST people that possess a brain cell that he is stating that he is the first to have produced and continue producing the LENR plants (container systems) so it would stand to reason that he will be the first to deliver the mass produced home units. In other words, NONE of his competition has even one LENR product sold to a single customer so he is way ahead of everybody else.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 03, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
I would love for this to be real and perhaps the test tubes are going to prove that it is real.
"...Al Opdenaker (from The U.S.Department of Energy) personally spoke to Dr. Dennis Bushnell a Chief Scientist for NASA Langley who explained to him that more than 100 Low energy nuclear reaction experiments had been conducted that confirmed that LENR was no longer a mere theory. Bushnell confirmed that now much greater energy could be generated through LENR than through conventional chemical reactions" So MileShort, I think Dr. Dennis Bushnell (Chief Scientist of NASA Langley research Center) has you beat here by a mile. I just have a gut feeling here that most people are going to take Dr. Bushnell's word over yours.
Regards,
Chess
Hey there are already LENR devices mass produced for 20years or more now. Smoke Detectors!
:o
Gwandau:
I don't necessarily believe in your logic and I refuse to "show you my papers."
Industries grow and shrink and the oil industry will not necessarily be immune to that. There are many web sites that go into this stuff and they look mostly like supermarket trashy tabloid websites to me. There may be a kernel of truth to what you say. Look at the business culture in Japan for example where groups of companies form cartels. I will just say it again, if the oil industry is 10% of the economy, just as an example, then the other 90% of the economy wants cheaper energy and they are a stronger force.
Look at Rossi right now and the amount of press associated with LENR. It has enough critical mass to not get snuffed out. Outside of the realm of free energy all people are energy conscious and have been for the past 30 years. Energy is discussed every day in the news.
You just have to understand that my opinions are different from yours. Big deal, what's your problem? I am just giving you my opinion on the tid-bits of news that are coming out about the E-Cats. Rossi is not a god and the E-Cat is not perfect. You can forget any fantasies that I have a sinister agenda.
Chess:
This alleged factory is part of the Riossi/E-Cat narrative. People that are interested in this story will be interested in knowing about the factory. It's a high-visibility element in the story. Major factories being built do in fact make the news.
QuoteIt is obvious to MOST people that possess a brain cell that he is stating that he is the first to have produced and continue producing the LENR plants (container systems) so it would stand to reason that he will be the first to deliver the mass produced home units.
That's a real leap of logic that you are taking. It takes a team of engineers to make the product and another team of engineers to create the factory. It would cost millions and millions of dollars and you would think there would be some information about this.
In theory, based on the narrative so far, are we supposed to assume that Underwriter's Laboratories are evaluating the home E-Cat right now? That implies that the first team of engineers have done a near-final design. I just don't get any sense that this has happened. I am not stating fact, just my opinion based on what I am hearing.
I hope that Dennis Bushnell is right. I looked at a recent NASA report and it was very forward-looking and just assumed that LENR would be viable by about 2025 (If I remember) and that is not "proof" that LENR is real. The release of scientific papers is much more convincing. At the same time, if a biased news organization or a web site cherry picks only the most positive papers and ignores the most negative papers, that's not good either.
Anyway, we can wait for more tid-bits of news. I may post my opinions.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on June 29, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
In a related matter, there are lots of grand sweeping statements that proclaim that "we are going to destroy most or all life on Earth if we don't come up with an alternative energy source soon" are nothing but politically correct propagandizing and parroting. Life on Earth is extremely robust and if changes happen, even major changes, then life will adapt and find a new balance.
MileHigh
Quote from: Gwandau on June 29, 2012, 07:34:35 PM
MileHigh,
that's quite a statement.
Do you have information that the rest of us here on earth does not have?
Then please give us data on the upper limits of what an eco system can take before breaking down.
The whole world will be thankful for your knowledge.
Gwandau
Quote from: MileHigh on June 29, 2012, 08:45:40 PM
Gwandau:
I can easily answer your question. However, let me turn the tables for a second, I promise to answer it later.
... snipped the usual red herrings ...
MileHigh
we are all still waiting you lying troll...
Free your minds. Oviously this quest for fusion hot cold or inbetween relies on a hydrogen fuel scource. Where the fuck is the hydrogen going to come from? The most likely place is fossil fuels. When they are depleted we will turn to the oceans. When they are depleted we will all be dead. Where did the oceans of Mars go? Why is it that people think the Universe values their lifeform anymore than a plasmoid amoeba floating around in space. You are naive if you think that fusion won't be controlled by the same assholes that control fission. You don't even know if fusion isn't driving power plants now. You don't know what these assholes are capable of. Tetrawatts of rf heating of the ionosphere for study of the aurora. They know what the fucking aurora does. They also know what electromagnetc pulses do at high lattitudes. Lets see where do we need a blackout today while we manufacture a "natural catastrophy". Wake the fuckup.
Wil-beast:
Quotewe are all still waiting you lying troll...
And you are just being willfully stupid in pursuit of the next confrontation. It's like a gambling addiction, isn't it?
The real question was answered; the Sun is an unlimited source of energy and it powers the Carbon Cycle and that sustains all life on Earth. Because of this incredible continuous power source and the massively diversified ecosystem you end up with a very robust system of living things that is highly adaptable and can also evolve if environmental conditions change. All the talk of mankind putting most of the life on Earth in peril unless we find alternative sources of energy soon are not true. That's the real answer and if you don't like it you can shove it up your ass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_energy_budget (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_energy_budget)
The total rate at which energy enters the Earth's atmosphere is estimated at 174 peta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peta_%28prefix%29)watts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peta_%28prefix%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peta_%28prefix%29)
Peta- (symbol: P) is a prefix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix) in the metric system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_system) denoting 10
15 or 1000000000000000.
So the solar radiation available as a resource to power life on Earth is approximately 174,000,000,000,000,000 watts.
All life on Earth taps into this power source and this power source is going to be around for billions of years.
But you knew all of this and you are just acting
willfully stupid for the sake of
trying to manufacture conflict. Just the fact that you want to manufacture conflict is simply stupid and you seem to have some serious problems.
What kind of poor sorry sad sack looks around
trying to make other people unhappy because it makes him happy?
Some data to ponder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GlobalWindPowerCumulativeCapacity.png
http://www.energytrend.com/Germany_Solar_Installation_20111004
Gwandau, Chess:
See those two nice exponential curves, one for global wind generating capacity, and the other for German photovoltaic capacity? Right now they represent just a small fraction of the world's energy requirements. Where do you think those curves will be in 50 years from now?
At the same time, how much oil is there left in the world at current and projected rates of consumption? I am not going to look it up, but I am pretty sure that it's a few hundred years.
The glass is more than half full, even if LENR never comes to fruition. But let's hope it does.
MileHigh
http://www.prweb.com/releases/solar_panels_market/solar_cells_market/prweb3867904.htm
QuoteGlobal Solar Panels Installed Capacity to Reach 33.4 Thousand Megawatts by 2015, According to New Report by Global Industry Analysts, Inc. GIA announces the release of a comprehensive global report on Solar Panels market.The worldwide installed capacity for solar panels is projected to exceed 33.4 thousand megawatts by the year 2015. This is primarily driven by the urgent need for an alternative source of energy that is renewable, abundant and at the same time eco-friendly. Perception regarding solar energy is undergoing a sea change, gradually shedding its image as an alternate source of energy, thereby underpinning the technology's strong penetration in both urban and rural communities alike.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 05, 2012, 03:04:33 AM
Wil-beast:
And you are just being willfully stupid in pursuit of the next confrontation. It's like a gambling addiction, isn't it?
milelow: ohh you don't like when i hold a mirror up to you... boo hoo :'(
Quote from: MileHigh on July 05, 2012, 03:04:33 AM
The real question was answered; the Sun is an unlimited source of energy and it powers the Carbon Cycle and that sustains all life on Earth.
no it wasn't... and no, the sun isn't an unlimited source of energy you liar. ::)
Quote from: MileHigh on July 05, 2012, 03:04:33 AM
All the talk of mankind putting most of the life on Earth in peril unless we find alternative sources of energy soon are not true.
that's your opinion... you don't have any proof of your claim.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 05, 2012, 03:04:33 AM
What kind of poor sorry sad sack looks around trying to make other people unhappy because it makes him happy?
your kind... ::)
i snipped all the rest of your irrelevant blabber... ::)
Nice weak reply there Wilby, you can go retreat to your nearest culvert now. If you actually have something to contribute to this thread then fine, but if it is going to be the same old bullshit from you then STFU, it's just stupid nonsense.
The root cause issue for you is working on becoming a decent human being. Fix that problem and then the relentless pursuit of argument for argument's sake and to intimidate people and make them miserable just might go away.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 04, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
That's a real leap of logic that you are taking.
Like I already said, Andrea Rossi is the first to have produced LENR plants (large container systems) so it would stand to reason that he will be the first to deliver the smaller mass produced home units. I don't think this is rocket science. His competition doesn't even have a publicly demonstrated prototype yet.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 04, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
It takes a team of engineers to make the product and another team of engineers to create the factory. It would cost millions and millions of dollars and you would think there would be some information about this.
No matter how many engineers it takes and no matter how much it may cost, this does not mean that Andrea Rossi would be stupid enough to show the layout of his plant (for all of his competitors to see and copy) and publish pictures of the factory. If I were in his shoes, I'd do the exact same thing and I'd have additional motives for keeping details concerning the factory confidential. I wouldn't want to even disclose the location of the factory to minimize any chances of foul play.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 04, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
I hope that Dennis Bushnell is right.
Dr. Dennis Bushnell is in a better position than you are to draw this conclusion as Dennis is not just citing mere opinion here like you are. He's making reference to 100's of LENR positive test results to back up his statement.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 04, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
The release of scientific papers is much more convincing. At the same time, if a biased news organization or a web site cherry picks only the most positive papers and ignores the most negative papers, that's not good either.
A news organization didn't cherry pick these positive LENR test results (as you tried to twist the facts around again in another clumsy disinformation attempt) as you state in your quote above. Dr. Dennis Bushnell (Chief Scientist of NASA Langley Research Center) was the one who referenced the 100's of positive LENR test results to back up his statement concerning LENR technology. Here's the quote again:
"...Al Opdenaker (from The U.S.Department of Energy) personally spoke to
Dr. Dennis Bushnell a Chief Scientist for NASA Langley
who explained to him that
more than 100 Low energy nuclear reaction experiments had been conducted that confirmed that LENR was no longer a mere theory. Bushnell confirmed that now much greater energy could be generated through LENR than through conventional chemical reactions"
I highlighted the parts of the quote to show the readers WHO cited the 100's of positive LENR test results above.
Once again, Dr. Dennis Bushnell (Chief Scientist of NASA Langley Research Center) has your opinion beat by a mile with real FACTS (experimental evidence) in support of his statement to The U.S. Department of Energy.
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on July 05, 2012, 08:52:01 PM
No matter how many engineers it takes and no matter how much it may cost, this does not mean that Andrea Rossi would be stupid enough to show the layout of his plant (for all of his competitors to see and copy) and publish pictures of the factory. If I were in his shoes, I'd do the exact same thing and I'd have additional motives for keeping details concerning the factory confidential. I wouldn't want to even disclose the location of the factory to minimize any chances of foul play.
Chess
JL Audio, a car and home sound system equipment manufacturer, has rooms(labs, tech rooms, etc.) in their company that none of us here would ever be invited into. And some rooms that you might be invited into, may have many things covered in white sheets while you are there.
So for a company that just sells entertainment equipment to have some levels of secrecy, I can fully realize much higher levels of concern when it comes to an energy device such as the Rossie device. Especially if there is competition out there. ;]
Mags
Chess:
QuoteNo matter how many engineers it takes and no matter how much it may cost, this does not mean that Andrea Rossi would be stupid enough to show the layout of his plant (for all of his competitors to see and copy) and publish pictures of the factory. If I were in his shoes, I'd do the exact same thing and I'd have additional motives for keeping details concerning the factory confidential. I wouldn't want to even disclose the location of the factory to minimize any chances of foul play.
I disagree with you about showing some pictures of a plant and revealing some details. Seeing pictures of a production line is not going to reveal anything special in almost all cases. I just watched the Microsoft presentation for the announcement of the Surface tablet and they take you right into the factory. I am not directly comparing the two cases but still.
It's impossible to not disclose the location of the hypothetical factory. Somebody is cutting purchase orders with ship-to addresses on them. They would have to develop a network of second-tier suppliers, for displays and folded metal and plastic parts and shipping boxes and the list goes on and on. People that run a factory have to develop a network of supply chain contacts. Suppliers would be coming and going all the time. Requests for quotes would be being sent out. You are just dreaming.
Quote"...Al Opdenaker (from The U.S.Department of Energy) personally spoke to Dr. Dennis Bushnell a Chief Scientist for NASA Langley who explained to him that more than 100 Low energy nuclear reaction experiments had been conducted that confirmed that LENR was no longer a mere theory. Bushnell confirmed that now much greater energy could be generated through LENR than through conventional chemical reactions"
It is a pretty impressive sounding quote. I just haven't heard about any test labs getting negative results. Surely there must be some, so some balance would be good. Supposing 400 LENR experiments were done in the last year and 100 showed positive results. Well if you only report that there are 100 test labs showing positive results that's problematic. This is just a thought experiment to make a point. I am not trying to twist the facts in a "clumsy disinformation attempt."
The alleged factory is one of the elements in the story that has to start to materialize over time. We are now waiting for a launch of the home E-Cat in 2013 if I am correct? But we have no confirmed launch date, correct? Supposedly UL is testing a unit.
Still in a waiting loop.
MileHigh
The process that is utilized in the ECAT is the same process that mainstream neuclear physicists are emloying now to create fusion. ITER is dormant right now and gone back into research mode in light of the fact that coulomb explosions get the job done with high gain over input power. Stan Meyer back in the 80's was fracturing water using coulumb explosions in his fuel cells whether he knew it or not is debatable. This technology takes water and creates hydrogen in copious amounts. The hydrogen is then recombined with atmospheric oxygen in a process that generates pressure in a non-thermal manner. The expansion of the hydrogen peroxide produced on board the vehicle drives the cylinder with rocket fuel synthesised on demand. The spent fuel returns to ubiquotous water vapor at room temperature. And all the ECAT can do is produce heated water? Crude device for sure
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KjKN9n7J80 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KjKN9n7J80) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=1jcjwsoJZkM&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=1jcjwsoJZkM&NR=1)
You will notice in this video that he is using a battery operated device in the milliwatt regime to produce coherent light.
He takes one small ballon holds it in his fingers in front of the camera and the balloon and contents disappear. There is no heat involved here. Fast ions and electrons for sure but no frigging heat.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 06, 2012, 02:59:37 AM
It's impossible to not disclose the location of the hypothetical factory.
It is VERY possible to withhold the location of the factory. It's also very likely Rossi is working with a risk management team which makes the call on all of the security protocols so you can be sure that if this is the case, you will not be able to tempt him into being stupid enough to divulge any information that they have deemed risky.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 06, 2012, 02:59:37 AM
"...Al Opdenaker (from The U.S.Department of Energy) personally spoke to Dr. Dennis Bushnell a Chief Scientist for NASA Langley who explained to him that more than 100 Low energy nuclear reaction experiments had been conducted that confirmed that LENR was no longer a mere theory. Bushnell confirmed that now much greater energy could be generated through LENR than through conventional chemical reactions"
It is a pretty impressive sounding quote.
Yes it is because unlike your mere opinion with the lesser qualifications in your background to accompany it, Dr. Dennis Bushnell (Chief Scientist of NASA Langley Research Center) backs up his statements with real FACTS (experimental evidence) in support of his statement to The U.S. Department of Energy. Spin as many times as you want to, but your opinion will never surpass a more qualified statement and you know it.
The mere fact that you deny that LENR is a valid technology shows us exactly what we already knew about you from the beginning but couldn't put our finger on it. You sound just like a tobacco company representative 30 years ago telling people that their product doesn't kill anybody and there is no proof it leads to health complications either.
Chess
Chess:
QuoteIt's also very likely Rossi is working with a risk management team which makes the call on all of the security protocols so you can be sure that if this is the case, you will not be able to tempt him into being stupid enough to divulge any information that they have deemed risky.
Indeed. There is rampant speculation about what Rossi is doing since there is no information. Unfortunately your speculations about a huge organization with security protocols costing a fortune have the same weight as my speculation that there is no factory. Both are pure speculation.
QuoteThe mere fact that you deny that LENR is a valid technology shows us exactly what we already knew about you from the beginning but couldn't put our finger on it. You sound just like a tobacco company representative 30 years ago telling people that their product doesn't kill anybody and there is no proof it leads to health complications either.
You are the one twisting the facts here. I never explicitly denied that LENR was a valid technology, I am still undecided. Whether you like it or not, those are my true feelings. If this technology is proven true it will make the world news for a month solid. You are fully aware that this has not in fact happened. Beyond all of the grand conspiracies in the vast majority of cases our journalistic system does a pretty decent job. If it's real it will come out.
My focus, as a reminder, is on Rossi or Defkalion actually being able to deliver working systems to customers.
I am asking you again to take down your allegation that I am paid. It's insulting and it's not true.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 07, 2012, 01:45:46 AM
I never explicitly denied that LENR was a valid technology, I am still undecided.
You can't play both sides of the issue and it's obvious you don't as you attack proof presented by a well respected NASA scientist.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 07, 2012, 01:45:46 AM
If this technology is proven true it will make the world news for a month solid. You are fully aware that this has not in fact happened. Beyond all of the grand conspiracies in the vast majority of cases our journalistic system does a pretty decent job. If it's real it will come out.
You mean like the way ABC, NBC and CBS all aired the confession of E. Howard Hunt? The dying declaration of an ex-CIA agent admitting his role in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy? The confession where E. Howard Hunt also implicates many other people who were also involved from our own (the U.S.) federal government? You mean like that big story got covered?
Chess
MH said (not for the first time):
QuoteI am asking you again to take down your allegation that I am paid. It's insulting and it's not true.
And TK said: DITTO.
Either that.... or send me a nice big check, to make it true.
If you allow radioactivity to pass through a magnetic field you will get alpha, beta, and gamma rays. The first are helium nuclei, the second are electrons and the third are gamma rays which are similar to ultra rays in their electro-magnetic content. These three components of radioactivity are related. Ultra or gamma rays, on passing close to helium nuclei, bring about a deformation of space (rearrangement of the protons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_isomer#Internal_conversion)) and give birth to electrons (internal conversion electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_electron) & Auger electrons) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_conversion#Similar_processes) until their wave energy is expended. Thus when gamma rays pass through an acid solution (boric acid) saturated with helium nuclei, the newly created electrons gyrate around the nuclei, but the acid prevents them from joining up with the nuclei, and they are collected on plates at the bottom of the apparatus. This provides an inexhaustible supply of energy which requires nothing more than a little acid solution and some helium nuclei. This process also generates a direct energy conversion to electricity.
Here's something interesting about boron. Boron reacts with every element on the periodic chart.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on July 07, 2012, 10:44:06 AM
It doesn't necessarily have to rely on the consumption or depletion of the hydrogen (To think otherwise is not to 'Free your minds'). If you allow radioactivity to pass through a magnetic field you will get alpha, beta, and gamma rays. The first are helium nuclei, the second are electrons and the third are gamma rays which are similar to ultra rays in their electro-magnetic content. These three components of radioactivity are related. Ultra or gamma rays, on passing close to helium nuclei, bring about a deformation of space (rearrangement of the protons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_isomer#Internal_conversion)) and give birth to electrons (internal conversion electrons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_electron) & Auger electrons) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_conversion#Similar_processes) until their wave energy is expended. Thus when gamma rays pass through an acid solution (boric acid) saturated with helium nuclei, the newly created electrons gyrate around the nuclei, but the acid prevents them from joining up with the nuclei, and they are collected on plates at the bottom of the apparatus. This provides an inexhaustible supply of energy which requires nothing more than a little acid solution and some helium nuclei. This process also generates a direct energy conversion to electricity.
Gravock
My idea is to use casimir cavitiy geometry to strip electrons from hydrogen neuclei or exclude them from entering the cavity. The protons while inside the cavity are excluded from zero-point oscillations that dictate the ground-state for all electrodynamic systems. The monatomic ion proton then drops to a super-cooled state. Upon exiting the cavity the ionised monatomic hydrogen is "heated" by the vacuum fluctuations as the vacuum energy is converted into electron mass. The hydrogen gas is then reconstitued down stream of the cavity for recycle. The electron stripping device therefore sees an increased amount of negatively charged mass entering it's system. The relaxation of the electron extraction system is used to do work outside the frame of reference the cavity filter is comprised of.
The problem of course with the above system is the cavity construction itself. The ecat relies heavily on the palladium crystal structure and PRECONDITIONING of the structure and dynamic oscillations of the structure to temporarily create a cavity small enough to exclude background radiation pressure and allow coloumb explosions to arise. The high speed protons reaching local velocities of serveral million degrees. This causes fusion in the nickel and voila binding energy expressed as various emwaves heats the reactor core. Ponds and Fleishman were the first scientists to report this process and forced to jump the gun. They were manipulated by the powers that be to stall LENR in it's tracks. It didn't work obviously. For goodness sakes you can make copper-nitrogen-oxygen-radioactive with 1/2lives in the minutes. I have an ionizer I'm looking at right now ionizing air molecules and driving a passive collector which is constantly monitored to output any signal loss from the ionizer. Tesla created zeropoint cavities by controlling the plasma growth fronts in the spark gap and latter on rectifier tubes. As the distance between the plasma approached the casimer cavity CONSTANT the plasma intruding into the cavity detached from the continous plasma field. A portion of the plasma again accelerated by casimier force right at each other. The resulting collisions producing electro-magnetic radiation far in excess of the input energy needed to synthesize the plasma growth and intrusion into the cavity. This disruptive discharge picked up by various rf current transducers better known as antennae. Tesla often described the need to produce only a crack in the plasma to obtain his disruptive discharge. Moray produced a semiconductor and stratified the holes in the germanium crystal with electrostatic fields. These holes were then caused to oscillate in tune with the vacuum oscillations. The resultant expansion and contraction of the holes would be mirrored by quantom tunneling on the other side of the dielectric barrier. The electron rich copper then transducing quantom tunneling effects into extremely high oscillations of the copper substrate. He then employed standard frequency conversion devices to run electrical loads. The amount of similiarity amongst alternative energy devices is astounding.
Here is a message I posted to Hank Mills on PESN. Hank is trying to arrange for an interview with Rossi.
>>>
Hank, all of the interviews that I have seen with Rossi over the past few months have been pretty bad. Simplistic infantile questions are posed to Rossi and he responds with short, simplistic and infantile replies. If you are not able to pose technical questions then my advice to you is to bring someone along that can.
Example: Questioner: Mr. Rossi, is the 600 C output stable? Rossi answer: Yes it is stable.
That's a bullshit question and a bullshit answer.
You want real questions? Ask him how the heat is produced. i.e.; is it with gamma rays and a lead absorption jacket or by some other means? Ask him what the volume of the reactor chamber is. Once you get that ask him how the heat is extracted from the reactor chamber. Is it done with water at high pressure or is there an intermediary step before the heat is transferred into the water. If there is an intermediary step, then what is the intermediary step? Ask him what the flow rate of the high-pressure water at 600 C is if that's the way it is done.
So, you have a small reactor chamber and you have to extract 10 kilowatts of power out of it. You realize that that has to be done pretty fast because otherwise the heat energy will build up so fast that the reactor core might melt down in 1/2 second. So, that implies that there is a quite sophisticated control system that has to continuously extract that heat. That control system will typically be done by a microcontroller running software that gets inputs from flow rate sensors and temperature sensors and who knows what else. The software for a control system like this has to run in real time, and it is a very challenging thing to do. Extracting 10 kilowatts from the small reactor core continuously and ensuring that there isn't a meltdown is the most critical aspect of the entire E-Cat. So you should ask Rossi about the control system and the sensors and the microcontroller and the software engineer that is working on the algorithm.
Beyond that, Hank, you should spend a couple of nights and read everything you can on oil-fired and coal-fired electrical generating stations that use high-pressure steam to generate electricity. Spend hours and hours doing your homework so that you understand how these plants work so that you can apply this knowledge to the E-Cat, which is just a miniature generating station once you connect it up to a steam turbine and a generator.
Speaking of steam turbines, I read a quote from Rossi where he said his company would not be involved with the electrical generation. He said that they would just provide the 600 C steam/high pressure water. Ask Rossi if a 600 C E-Cat has ever been connected to a steam turbine. Ask Rossi what manufacturer and model number of steam turbine and what manufacturer and model number of electrical generator. Ask Rossi if anyone has done the full test setup: E-Cat -> 10 Kilowatts of 600 C steam out -> turbine -> electrical generator -> 5-kilowatt electrical load. The last component is the MOST IMPORTANT - you have to be driving a 5-kilowatt electrical load to prove it is real. Far too often the load is left out of the picture.
For this electrical generating system, ask Rossi how they are disposing of the 5 kilowatts of waste heat. Ask him if the steam runs in a closed loop and goes back to a condenser.
Now, Rossi may back off on most of these questions and state that none of this testing has been done. But, does Rossi sound conversant with respect to one of these systems? Has he been talking to steam turbine suppliers and generator suppliers? Has somebody been shopping around for a 5-kilowatt load bank to do the real-world testing?
Now Hank, are you getting a sense of the types of questions you should be asking Rossi? You need to educate yourself before you interview him like I stated. If you are educated you will be able to tell if Rossi is making stuff up on the spot or not.
Good luck and the challenge for you is to not do a pure fluff fan-boy interview. As you can see there are literally hundreds of good solid questions you can ask Rossi but you have to do some homework if you want to do the best possible job.
MileHigh
A little follow-up posting:
>>>
I note that all of my proposed questions are based on the supposition that there is a beta E-Cat that can generate super-heated water at 600 C. It is very possible that nothing has been done with respect to any connection between a 10 Kw 600 C E-Cat and the "outside world," that being a steam turbine and a transmission and a generator and a condenser and a water circulating pump, etc, etc.
If that's the case Hank then you want to focus your questions on the E-Cat itself and the generation of a continuous stream of 10 kilowatts worth of 600 C superheated high-pressure water or 600 C dry steam. There are still hundreds of good questions you could ask Rossi as illustrated above. You can ask him about the pump that pumps coolant through the reactor. What kind of pump is it?
You can still let Rossi keep his "secret sauce" LENR reaction technology and still ask him about how the E-Cat functions and how it is tested, etc. None of this would be particularly confidential information, small power plants have been around for over a hundred years. You want to get a sense of how the device works without knowing about the proprietary heat generation mechanism.
Again, don't let your interview get derailed by asking Rossi about something that doesn't even exist. In theory all that Rossi needs to do is feed cold water into the 600 C E-Cat at a certain flow rate and measure 600 C steam coming out the other side of the device. That 600 C steam could simply be vented through the roof of their lab for all they care.
Notice, that's a good question right there: If Rossi is claiming a new E-Cat that produces 10 Kw of 600 C steam, how is he testing that? Is it like I just said, they pipe cold water into it and blow 600 C steam outside of the building the lab is in? That would be perfectly valid. You can ask about the all important control system for maintaining the 600 C steam output. Does the control system control a pump to regulate the flow of water into and out of the E-Cat? What kind of pump? The list goes on and on.
MileHigh
@Everyone:
Rossi makes another statement regarding the rights of those who purchase his product:
Antonella
July 7th, 2012 at 12:09 PM
Caro Andrea,
Anyone is wondering why the skeptics have not acquired a powerful facility to have undergone the test looking for. I heard two hypotheses, both inconsistent, in my opinion. The first is that your company has denied the purchase, but I see no sense, because in the meantime, Dick Smith had offered a facility in exchange for one million "to see", and also because a customer refused suppose you would have done bad publicity. The second hypothesis is that potential customers have not been satisfied, but not speak because of an NDA. I have difficulty believing that an NDA will be able to prevent them from being spun anonymous voices.
You can talk about it? Thanks and best regards,
Antonella
Andrea Rossi
July 7th, 2012 at 2:45 PM
Dear Antonella:
You are right, anybody can buy a 1 MW plant and make all the tests he wants and obviously anybody is free to give information to anybody regarding a property of his.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Chess
Chess:
QuoteDear Antonella:
You are right, anybody can buy a 1 MW plant and make all the tests he wants and obviously anybody is free to give information to anybody regarding a property of his.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
If anybody can buy a 1 MW plant and then release the results of their testing that would make one think that Rossi has absolutely nothing to hide. If that's the case then why doesn't Rossi himself release the specifications with full independent third-party confirmation of the specifications?
Forget that bizarre public demonstration with the 500 KW generator running in the background and the unverified claims of 400 Kw of thermal power being produced, it just won't cut it.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 09, 2012, 05:55:49 PM
Chess:
If anybody can buy a 1 MW plant and then release the results of their testing that would make one think that Rossi has absolutely nothing to hide. If that's the case then why doesn't Rossi himself release the specifications with full independent third-party confirmation of the specifications?
Forget that bizarre public demonstration with the 500 KW generator running in the background and the unverified claims of 400 Kw of thermal power being produced, it just won't cut it.
MileHigh
@MileLow:
The demands of the skeptics never end as they continually try to keep Rossi jumping through their hoops. At one point the skeptics complained about the steam quality so he did a demonstration with a heat exchanger in which much of the energy would be lost due to efficiency losses (as no heat exchanger is 100% efficient). With the heat exchanger, he silenced the steam complainers and still proved energy gains despite having the deck stacked against him. Then there were the skeptics who wanted to see it run in self-sustain mode and so he demonstrated this as well. Then the skeptics claimed it didn't run in self-sustain mode long enough so he allowed it to run in self-sustain mode for 5.5 hours. Then the skeptics said it would have to run for months in self-sustain mode for them to be satisfied.
And so Rossi realizes that it will never end. The skeptics are going to keep adding to their demands on Rossi until 2020. Rossi now understands that they are only trying to stall the release of the technology by keeping him busy jumping through all of their hoops. That is why he finally gave up trying to satisfy all of the skeptics (if they are "genuine" skeptics in the first place without hidden agendas). So Rossi is now focused on delivering the goods to the public in which he has made a giant stride as of 10/28/2012. He will not play their "perpetual demand" game with them any longer and this must really piss them off.
It's an old strategy reintroduced for a second time. I noticed this earlier in the thread and it was originally used on Andrea Rossi himself. This is an old lawyer's trick where you make a demand from the opposing counsel to turn over an ungodly amount of data, evidence or specific records. It's really a stall tactic usually employed in the discovery phase of a trial in which the side demanding the documentation has no actual interest in the documents requested. They do this in order to bog down the opposing counsel and use their noncompliance to the request as valid grounds to postpone (or be granted a continuance) a trial.
But Rossi was much smarter than they originally thought as he saw right through this transparent ploy. This is why Rossi only verifies the 1 MW units with the actual customers and not the media or demanding outside scientists anymore. He realizes that they will NEVER be satisfied no matter what he does because they are not genuinely looking for the answers. They just want him to be so busy jumping through their hoops that he does not have time left over to further his enterprises and thus never puts out a product.
My stance to this ingenious part of the crowd is for them to just purchase one of Rossi's 1MW units and test it for only 94 years. Then stop the testing and get back to me. I really am interested in seeing their results after 94 years of their own independent study of Rossi's work just to make sure. Don't allow ANYONE to get near the testing lab. Especially Rossi. Meanwhile, I'll just be using Rossi's E-Cats in my office and my residence with my sights set on using this technology to power a motor vehicle. I'll have the motor vehicle waiting for them to study upon completion of their original study. They can take even longer to study the vehicle if they would prefer.
Regards,
Chess
Very well said Chess. ;] Very.
Mags
Chess:
No in fact Rossi could have done some definitive demos that were audited and double-checked in real time by an independent third-party agency. Instead we got unclear unverified demos that he knew would play into the hands of people like you.
There is a lot of doubt around Rossi and his past history doesn't help at all.
Right now I don't think you or anyone can definitively state how the heat is generated in an E-Cat. Can you? There is something seriously wrong with that picture.
You admitted that you are not a technical person so as far as I am concerned you are just gobbling up all things Rossi like a kid eating jellybeans. Most of the quotes that you have posted of Rossi are almost comical in how infantile and vague they are.
As far as this goes:
Quote@Rosemary:
TK and MileHigh are partners. They play tag team trolling through any forum they can. They have both made demands on other forums that will never be heard until they find the right forum to post their complaints. And just for EVERYBODY who does not know. THEY ARE BOTH DISINFORMATION AGENTS WORKING TOGETHER. Do not believe a word they say.
Now TK and MileHigh. Take another screen shot and post this in every forum so I won't have to.
Now, having said this, I am willing remove this posting AFTER (AND ONLY AFTER) THEY HAVE BOTH REMOVED EVERY PIECE OF DISINFORMATION THEY HAVE EVER POSTED. And I've been keeping a log so I will know when this has occurred.
Best regards,
Chess
Kiss my ass with your bullshit. You are too glazed-eyed and too much of a Rossi fan boy and too ignorant about science and technology to be able to properly evaluate who and what I am. I am the real thing, a real person. I say what I say and I don't lie and I am not an "agent" for anybody. There are no "agents" watching the forums Chess. That's just another line being fed to you that you are gobbling up hook, line, and sinker. The idea that government and industry are worried about what goes on on the forums is laughably ridiculous. You are not living in a schlocky low-budget spy vs. spy movie Chess, wake up now please.
This line, "I am willing remove this posting AFTER (AND ONLY AFTER) THEY HAVE BOTH REMOVED EVERY PIECE OF DISINFORMATION THEY HAVE EVER POSTED." is a joke. You sound like some kid in Grade 5 that lost his jellybeans.
Meanwhile, are you aware that Rosemary is clueless and doesn't even understand her own circuit? Are you aware that an inductor connected to a switching MOSFET is definitely not a source of free energy?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 09, 2012, 10:50:54 PM
Kiss my ass with your bullshit.
@MileHigh:
Well isn't that special. This is a great way to show your ignorance. Use some more profanity why don't you? I sure hope you don't talk to your children this way. OMG.
And no, I will not be doing you any sexual favors as you suggest in your quote above. This is very inappropriate.
Disappointed,
Chess
Chess:
You can feign trying to take the high road and you can try acting like a smart ass with literal interpretations of idiomatic expressions. But the real truth is that I am not an "agent" and if you truly believe that then your brain is not capable of processing information properly.
It's laughable that you think that I or TK are "spies."
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 09, 2012, 10:50:54 PM
Kiss my ass with your bullshit.
@MileHigh:
I just don't see your support at this forum at all. You spend your time vehemently denying the existence of LENR technology anomalies and LENR is not even over unity (for many reasons) due to the fact it requires a fuel source. About the closest I can even come to agreeing with you is in this paragraph. LENR may not be over unity, but it certainly is one cheap (fuel is less expensive than petroleum based fuels), 100% clean and compact source of energy that beats out fossil fuels by miles. You try to play both sides of the issue and it's obvious you don't as you attack proof presented by a well respected NASA scientist.
Don't you think it is just a little bit suspicious when people see you attack the statement of a well respected and regarded NASA scientist? You couldn't even carry his briefcase.
Then when presented with peer reviewed documentation of experimental proof, you state that you don't have time to look at it? Don't you think that in and of itself looks HIGHLY suspicious?
You accuse Rossi of running a scam but when confronted, you can't name ANY victims and you can't have a scam without victims as it is a contradiction in terms.
Why are you here? Most people simply avoid threads which they don't agree with after saying their peace but it's a campaign that you repeat over and over again. Just like the tobacco companies used to do with their spokesmen.
As far as disinformation agents go; If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, eats like a duck, swims like a duck and acts like a duck...it's a duck.
Chess
Chess:
QuoteI just don't see your support at this forum at all. You spend your time vehemently denying the existence of LENR technology anomalies and LENR is not even over unity (for many reasons) due to the fact it requires a fuel source. About the closest I can even come to agreeing with you is in this paragraph. LENR may not be over unity, but it certainly is one cheap (fuel is less expensive than petroleum based fuels), 100% clean and compact source of energy that beats out fossil fuels by miles. You try to play both sides of the issue and it's obvious you don't as you attack proof presented by a well respected NASA scientist.
Anybody that has read my postings in this thread knows that you are not telling the truth about me. I am going to repeat it but I don't really have to. I have stated multiple times that the test lab reports about LENR look interesting from what I have heard but I am undecided. Is that not sinking into your head?
You are also indulging in propaganda when you state that the opinion of a well respected NASA scientist is "proof." Proof would come in the form of scientific papers or in Rossi or Defkalion delivering a working commercial product. I am still reserving my judgement and I am not going to read through 100 scientific papers either.
I haven't read a single scientific research paper on LENR. How many have you read?
QuoteThen when presented with peer reviewed documentation of experimental proof, you state that you don't have time to look at it? Don't you think that in and of itself looks HIGHLY suspicious?
You never presented me with peer reviewed documentation. I can't recall that ever happening. Can you link to somewhere in this thread that has those links? If you can't, how about you give me five links to read? I would be willing to do that.
QuoteYou accuse Rossi of running a scam but when confronted, you can't name ANY victims and you can't have a scam without victims as it is a contradiction in terms.
More infantile nonsense from you. I don't have to point out any victims, and you in fact know that I can't point out any victims because at this stage of the game we all know that there is just a single alleged "secret US military customer." So why are you bullshitting like a fool?
QuoteWhy are you here? Most people simply avoid threads which they don't agree with after saying their peace but it's a campaign that you repeat over and over again.
Just like for Gwandau I am not going to "show you my papers." You are repeating stuff too, and I am here waiting for news and commenting on the little bits of news or activity as it happens. But I already said that before a couple of times so I assume that this time it's going to register with you.
QuoteAs far as disinformation agents go; If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, eats like a duck, swims like a duck and acts like a duck...it's a duck.
No, it's more like you are a quack. You think Rossi is the greatest thing since sliced bread and you can't cope with people that don't share your opinion. Well you had better cope with people that don't share your opinion and that's the real world for you.
Both you and Rosie allege that myself and TK are "agents" and you make yourselves look like a pair of tragi-comic clowns when you do that. It's a pathetic joke, you should pull yourself together and grow up a bit.
There are serious principles at stake with this whole Rossi saga about science and engineering and society at large. If you can't see them then you are blind. We are all NOT going to become a bunch of mindless guppies and be comfortably numb like you and Rosemary. If, and I said if, it turns out that Rossi never delivers anything then that's fraud and he should go to jail. Just like the people behind Steorn should be in jail right now but they aren't.
You are just a blind believer fan boy and that lowers your credibility so that you are barely treading water.
If this ultimately turns out to be real I will be happy and say it is real. But RIGHT NOW, whether you like it or not, in my opinion the whole Rossi/E-Cat narrative sucks and he is holding on by just a thread.
Your allegations about myself and TK are nonsense, try to understand and get that into your head. Rosemary is a lost soul that is obsessed with something that is NOT TRUE, try to understand that and get that into your head.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 04:28:28 AM
You think Rossi is the greatest thing since sliced bread and you can't cope with people that don't share your opinion.
LMFAO
you think you're the greatest thing since sliced bread... and you can't cope with people that don't share your opinion.
CANR.org: Papers on LENR, Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, also known as ...
MH
Must be about a Zillion papers out there
Oh and Yes .........I'm Back ,and there is only one reason for that.
TRUE ALTRUISM!! ;D
Later.........
Chet
Wil-beast, now that was a classic meaningless posting worthy of the only troll on this web site. You have to keep that "bad vibes" quotient up, don't you?
"How the Wil-beast Stole Happiness," it's a classic story for young trolls with a miserable and disappointing ending.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 09:36:51 AM
Wil-beast, now that was a classic meaningless posting worthy of the only troll on this web site. You have to keep that "bad vibes" quotient up, don't you?
compare, contrast... conclude.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 04:28:28 AM
More infantile nonsense from you.
So why are you bullshitting like a fool?
No, it's more like you are a quack. You think Rossi is the greatest thing since sliced bread and you can't cope with people that don't share your opinion.
you make yourselves look like a pair of tragi-comic clowns when you do that. It's a pathetic joke, you should pull yourself together and grow up a bit.
a bunch of mindless guppies and be comfortably numb like you and Rosemary.
You are just a blind believer fan boy and that lowers your credibility so that you are barely treading water.
you think you're the greatest thing since sliced bread... and you can't cope with people that don't share your opinion.
Q.E.D.
Yeah Wilby, I conclude that you are a miserable horrible person that feeds off negative energy. It's pathetic. Why are you like this? You didn't get any love as a child? You chopped up frogs with a switchblade as child and now you do this? You suffer from self-loathing? What the fuck is wrong with you?
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 11:04:26 AM
Yeah Wilby, I conclude that you are a miserable horrible person that feeds off negative energy. It's pathetic. Why are you like this? You didn't get any love as a child? You chopped up frogs with a switchblade as child and now you do this? You suffer from self-loathing? What the fuck is wrong with you?
::)
again... Q.E.D.
You have psychological problems and are sick. Go see a shrink.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 11:31:44 AM
You have psychological problems and are sick. Go see a shrink.
so when you tell chessnyt that "you think you're the greatest thing since sliced bread... and you can't cope with people that don't share your opinion." that's just you being a magnanimous hero who's saving the world from evil rossi fanboys... but when i say the same thing to you that you said to chessnyt i'm some sort of monster... ::)
you are transparent milelow... we all see through you.
You are the issue and everybody knows that you are the issue. Go see a shrink and try to cure your ills and then work on trying to become a decent human being. Get help.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 11:41:41 AM
You are the issue and everybody knows that you are the issue. Go see a shrink and try to cure your ills and then work on trying to become a decent human being. Get help.
your response doesn't address the salient points of my post whatsoever. i'm not buying your logically fallacious replies and neither is anyone else. ::) try a cogent argument or STFU.
You STFU until you cure yourself and then come back and post all you want as a normal person.
Here you go: http://www.mayoclinic.org/psychiatry-rst/
QuoteThe Department of Psychiatry and Psychology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., comprises one of the largest psychiatric treatment groups in the United States. The department includes more than 65 psychiatrists and psychologists, representing every aspect of psychiatric medicine. Specialists provide expert care to children, adolescents and adults who have mental, addictive and emotional disorders.
QuoteMost patients are treated on an outpatient basis. Several inpatient programs are offered at the 108-bed Psychiatry Treatment Center that adjoins Saint Marys Hospital.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 11:52:17 AM
You STFU until you cure yourself and then come back and post all you want as a normal person.
Here you go: http://www.mayoclinic.org/psychiatry-rst/
again with the ad hominem... ::) don't you ever tire of using just logical fallacies?
troll reply coming up in 3... 2... 1...
Quotedon't you ever tire of using just logical fallacies?
Get yourself some help.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 12:03:41 PM
Get yourself some help.
LMFAO!!! another red herring!
::) you don't even realize you are behaving in the same manner that you accuse rosemary of behaving... ::)
i'm going to let you have the last post so you can feel like you have won something... so hurry up with your next logical fallacy so i can laugh and go fishing with a smile.
@MileHigh:
To form any intelligent opinion, you need to know what the facts are yet you have not read a single scientific research paper on LENR so therefore you can not consider all the relevent facts. It's like saying that the sun doesn't exist as you walk around with a blindfold on lest you allow sunlight to enter your eyes.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 04:28:28 AM
You are just a blind believer fan boy and that lowers your credibility so that you are barely treading water.
You have got to be kidding, right? Who is blind (and on purpose no doubt) and who is credible? You claim to have credibility and you will not even look at the evidence? Now I know you're a nut job.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 04:28:28 AM
I haven't read a single scientific research paper on LENR.
Whether you read the scientific research papers or not (whether you take off the blindfold or not), the proof still exists.
Whether you visit the ongoing successful demonstration in progress at MIT or not, it is real.
You accuse Rossi of running a scam but when confronted, you can't name ANY victims and you can't have a scam without victims as it is a contradiction in terms.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 04:28:28 AM
I don't have to point out any victims, and you in fact know that I can't point out any victims
So then your scam accusation is false. You defame Rossi's character by false accusation and admit it NOW yet you refuse to retract the false scam allegation? You're a real piece of work.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 10, 2012, 04:28:28 AM
You are also indulging in propaganda when you state that the opinion of a well respected NASA scientist is "proof."
I did not say that. That is a HUGE LIE and another example of how you spread misinformation. Now here's what I actually said:
"You try to play both sides of the issue and it's obvious you don't as you attack proof presented by a well respected NASA scientist."
Notice I said "...proof presented by a well respected NASA scientist." I did not say his statement was proof like you falsely claim above. If the readers care to go back a little further, they can even see this previous quote of mine:
"...because unlike your mere opinion with the lesser qualifications in your background to accompany it, Dr. Dennis Bushnell (Chief Scientist of NASA Langley Research Center) backs up his statements with real FACTS (experimental evidence) in support of his statement to The U.S. Department of Energy. Spin as many times as you want to, but your opinion will never surpass a more qualified statement and you know it."
So as the people in this forum can clearly see, you are a bold faced liar spreading yet more disinformation, Milelow. You need to come up for air and soon.
Chess
Chess:
I admitted that I haven't read any scientific papers but I certainly have been following the story for a long time.
I asked you how many scientific papers on LENR research that
you yourself have read, and you avoided the question. So right now I am assuming that we are on a level playing field and you have read
zero papers yourself. So therefore you can not consider all the relevant facts. You must be a nut job too if we assume that you have not read a single paper yet you are endorsing this alleged technology.
QuoteYou accuse Rossi of running a scam but when confronted, you can't name ANY victims and you can't have a scam without victims as it is a contradiction in terms.
I feels like you were born just yesterday sometimes. Many companies in the realm of "free energy" never produce anything but they continue to keep "running" and collecting paychecks. Steorn comes to mind right away. Duh! Doh!
QuoteNotice I said "...proof presented by a well respected NASA scientist." I did not say his statement was proof like you falsely claim above.
That was just an honest mistake on my part.
QuoteSo as the people in this forum can clearly see, you are a bold faced liar spreading yet more disinformation, Milelow
You are hopelessly trapped in a spin cycle.
I am going to take a trip to PESN and do some copying and make a follow-up posting in case there are readers here that never visit Sterling's nook on the web.
MileHigh
A taste of PESN comments about Rossi:
QuoteJohn Smith 1882
There's no approx. date. Rossi will never show anything conclusive regarding his work. This should be evident by now... if you don't believe me just go back and look at the timelines of the e-cat and other Rossi projects.
I'm especially skeptical of someone who is cheer-leading a certain point of view. The facts should stand on their own.
Hank, I think it would be a great boon to the community if you could get Rossi to publish some actual data or allow third party testing.
Quotedfnj
I agree with you Ivan. Everytime I've asked for hard data against a graph showing a control measurement the cultist attack me saying I am making an ad hominem attack against Rossi. Also, when pressed, Rossi stated just buy one E-Cat for $1.5 million and you publish all the data you want. This is exactly what scammers do. The conversation is never about the data but a feigned character attacks. The conversation is always about subjective views, opinions, and spin. The conversation is never objective, never data driven, never about experimental setup and measurement techniques.
So anyone with even a basic shred of scientific understanding must be a little skeptical about the Rossi conversations so far. I have nothing against Rossi. I would love for him to become rich beyond his wildest dreams living in an island villa surrounding by nubile nymphs serving his every need. In the mean time, big-oil is crushing the world into slavery. It would be nice if some rigorous scientific results were published just to drive the oil speculators into the ground and give some relief to the workers of the World!!!!
QuoteMark Dancy
I admire your faith Hank but it is only exceeded by ignorance.
1. No test data has vet been produced that stood up to any critical analysis, especially the methodology. The over whelming majority of scientists who have reviewed the procedures find they are floored. So why is the University distancing themselves as well. Please provide one lot of data to this forum that you feel supports Rossi's device. If not then go find it for us please.
2. Agree we don't have the data. Rossi has lied before even Sterling called him a liar. Can you ask him what measures he is taking to clean up the multi million dollar environmental damage he created in one of his other failed ventures or is that forgiven?
3.Kindly get some evidence his production facility exists...good luck with that.
many others have asked you questions Hank and you fail to respond because you know the truth you just want to believe so much it has blinded you. Sterling to his credit over the years is happy to eventually dig down and find the truth, or if presented with it accepts it.
QuoteMark Dancy
i only have one question hank. Why does Rossi not allow simple widely accepted, inexpensive tests to measure energy input and heat output? I and all other skeptics would be silenced immediately and main stream science and industry would be all over this.
I respect your right to publish commentary but get back to basics and ask you the real burning question why he fails to agree to what any other inventor would do.
Jim Dunn has made an excellent suggestion for a test, why not put that to Rossi.
As we always say "Show me the Data" but there is a condition, data that can be believed and does not raise more questions than it answers because of questionable methodology.
Kind Regards as always
troll on milelow... troll on...
eastbound and down he's loaded up and trolling
he's gonna spin what they say can't be spun
he's gotta a long way to go and a short time to get there
he's eastbound, just watch ol' milelow troll
Some more:
QuoteDoktor M
Nice choice of words... but why let Rossi show some ACTUAL TRANSMUTATION before hailing him as the new saviour? I mean, transmutations would pretty much prove his claim. As would gamma, neutrons, caliometry or whatever. Talk is cheap but doesn't relly prove anything...
Also, has the Department of Defense and the Department of Energy really tested the e-cat? I don't recall this. Is there any documantation about these tests or is this just more talk from Rossi which I have missed? In fact, to be honest do not recall anyone actually testing the e-cat. I do recall Essén, Kullander, Lewan and Kritvik OBSERVING Rossi demonstrating the e-cat (and drawing completely different conclusions from the experience).
Doktor M
Sorry. Should read "...why NOT let Rossi show some ACTUAL TRANSMUTATION".
QuoteNixter
You can't blame people who are initially skeptical about LENR, I was,... after all how can there be such a thing as "Free Energy?" Until someone tells you that, "Yes, there is free energy, that is what solar, wind and water generated power is, the energy used to make it is free." So now you know that something you assumed to be impossible all of your life, was a mistake, and what other things have you also been wrong about that had the same degree of certainty?
The same mental process can happen with the E-Cat, at first it is an obvious fraud, only brainless fools would believe such a thing, it is utterly impossible to get more energy out than goes in, such a thing is a version of the perpetual motion scam, right? Then you find that legitimate peer reviewed journals have published works that have good data showing more energy measured out than going in, so it IS possible in the laboratory! If it has been done in the lab, then suddenly Andrea Rossi's E-Cat claims do not seem too far fetched, perhaps, even plausible. Add into the mix, University based researchers, Companies developing LENR Hardware, Companies like National Instruments sponsoring University studies and the various LENR conferences and symposiums all forming a far reaching consensus that something new and exciting is being observed, measured and studied.
If Rossi actually releases a solid, accurate science based report, and it has been generated by vetted professionals, it will be the straw that breaks the camels back. A delayed reaction will ensue for most, as the big players in the background will go into action quickly, while the detectable layer of LENR skeptics will continue to deny, because they are still too early in the acceptance curve, the same curve we all had to go through. The World Energy sectors will have to do something and fast, what that action will be is impossible to know, but we will know it when we see it. I would be best for them join in and become active participants, rather that becoming blunt obstructions to LENR progress.
Was anyone following the "Directly Downwind Faster Than The Wind" controversy last year? I see similarities in that reputable Scientists said that going faster than the wind with wind power only was absolutely impossible, they produced reams of mathematical proofs showing it, but eventually the DDWFTTW team, (Who was backed by Google.), succeeded, they made heavily instrumented runs that proved the cart went faster than the wind. Many of the "experts" who said it was not possible, were forced to concede that they were wrong, BUT the point here is that they only relented AFTER the functioning hardware operated as predicted. Also of interest was how some of the skeptics continued to say it was impossible, long after most considered it settled. I see similarities in the two cases, and I think it can be used as an accurate predictor of what will likely follow.
QuoteMark Dancy
Hank, your a nice gut but this is just another example of your own ignorance, lack of qualifications to be writing an editorial on such matters. You also assume and believe every thing Rossi tells you.
Rossi has no peer reviewed data, a criminal record and responsible for environmental damage worth millions. On the other hand we have a team of some of the best scientist in the world dealing with real data and experiments that can be peer reviewed.
I agree some funding needs to be put towards LENR, that we agree on.
Go back and read your articles 12 months ago, all we got is delusional promises, and more failed deadlines.
keep up the writing it makes for amusing reading.
Mark
Some more:
QuoteScienceguy
Well said Mark, very well said. In reading the "background" on Rossi's claims I found a really big problem (i.e. "whopper"). He claims to be using isotopic enriched nickel. He further claims that he has a process to enrich the nickel at "very little cost". Isotopic enrichment has been studied and perfected for the last 70 years for applications from medical imagining/treatment to fission/fusion devices. The processes (while very efficient) are extremely hazardous and profoundly expensive. I find no credible way that Rossi has achieved this enrichment without having billions in research money and a whole slew of research staff to do it. Keep in mind that oak ridge, Hanford and savannah river plant all worked on this (to the tune of millions of people hours) to get the current technology in place
QuoteChuck Hansen
I appreciate your diligence in verifying these claims. However, what does Domenicio Fioravanti have to say about the technology, at least as-of Oct 28 2011? Is he to be trusted? What I would call speculation is speculating LARC is testing and helping to engineer with Rossi, as per Bushnell stating "There are estimates using just the performance of some of the devices under study that 1% of the nickel mined on the planet each year could produce the world's energy requirements at the order of 25% the cost of coal." Those words practically echo a very early 'Rossi-says' statement. Also speculation that Fioravanti signed off for DARPA (or other military entity). Any progress in CF at this point is definitely worthwhile, even if it becomes exaggerated. I don't share many of the author's sentiments with the e-cat, especially the 'cheerleading' aspect, however I do at least agree there is more that just 'Rossi says', granted there is still a lot of that :)
Besides, the real hurdle comes if the claims of even just a working product really are true. Bureaucracy (at least in the US) has the potential to delay this. However if governments are smart, they will realize the rest of the world will embrace this openly and could easily surpass other nations that adopt slowly. Probably meaning, less developed nations will take a huge jump in their productivity while more established (US?) may as well but in a much smaller relative capacity. I'm a realist and realize there are current US investors wanting to milk their investments as much they can, lobbyists permitting. There's no conspiracy in that, all good, legal tactics promoted by neo-luddism. I'm in the US and have 'speculated' for a while that I may have to buy the non-epa version of CF when it comes out, at least until DC 'gets the point'.
In general, I dislike how Rossi basically 'steals' the work of all previous CF research, maybe does some edisonian engineering to find the 'right mix', and leaves the rest of the CF community in the dark essentially. I'll still give him a part of the credit if it ends up a great contribution to the field. He's not going to be at ICCF-17 as I understand. Defkalion will be, and hope their upcoming openness proves that CF is indeed capable of industrial-level performance. As we both know there are a lot of 'revealings' and open validations in danger of expiring in the next few months... lets hope at least one has the goods (Defkalion, Plasmerg, etc). Not sure what the e-cat open validation date is slated for... or what is being tested right now for the EU certification. Anyone skeptical of Rossi's claims (hopefully everyone to some degree) and in the position to investigate should definitely start there I'd say, to see if those claims are at least valid.
QuoteDave
"operating with an agenda" is very strong assertion. Prove it! On the one hand you the extordinary claim of a nuclear reaction. On the other hand it is just "known" to be perfectly safe. Hydrogen bombs are based on nuclear reactions. LENR is based on nuclear reactions. Without a proven theoretical model that can be tested we do not know what the limitations are for the nuclear reactions. I think it would be just common sense not to have 20 reactors all going at once until the reaction is well understood.
I don't think developers should stop what they are doing. Assuming the questioning of safety is meant to stop current development is a completely paranoid conclusion. The real issue here is to emphasize the importance of publishing a proven theoretical model as soon as possible. Once a proven theoretical model has been published ALL safety concerns can accurately be assessed by real science. Real science as opposed to opinions based on a personal bias.
Looks like the new boss is the same as the old boss.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 11, 2012, 04:20:51 AM
Some more:
QuoteDave
"operating with an agenda" is very strong assertion. Prove it! On the one hand you the extordinary claim of a nuclear reaction. On the other hand it is just "known" to be perfectly safe. Hydrogen bombs are based on nuclear reactions. LENR is based on nuclear reactions. Without a proven theoretical model that can be tested we do not know what the limitations are for the nuclear reactions. I think it would be just common sense not to have 20 reactors all going at once until the reaction is well understood.
I don't think developers should stop what they are doing. Assuming the questioning of safety is meant to stop current development is a completely paranoid conclusion. The real issue here is to emphasize the importance of publishing a proven theoretical modelas soon as possible. Once a proven theoretical model has been published ALL safety concerns can accurately be assessed by real science. Real science as opposed to opinions based on a personal bias.
Looks like the new boss is the same as the old boss.
what the hell is this guy even talking about? surely he and milelow know that scientific theories are not "proven"? surely this guy and milelow at least know that much about science... real science. right?
So there you go. That was from comments from the last four or five Rossi articles on PESN. I have read comments on other web sites with similar themes.
Many serious minded people are very concerned about whether this is real and being implemented by a person that is not particularly credible, or on the other hand this is all just a make-work project that will never produce anything useful at all.
You don't have to be a bloody Spy vs. Spy "agent" to have an opinion like this. Arguably you just have to have some common sense.
Take this for example: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/410964/neutron-beam
Quoteneutron beam, a stream of neutrons (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/410919/neutron) that is used to study samples in physics (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/458757/physics), chemistry (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/108987/chemistry), and biology (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/66054/biology). Neutron beams are extracted from nuclear reactors (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/421763/nuclear-reactor) and particle accelerators (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/445045/particle-accelerator).
Have any people reading this ever in their lives heard about aiming a beam of neutrons at some nickel and hearing reports of copper being produced? Or any anomalies related to fusion energy signatures or fusion byproducts? They have been playing with neutron beams for who knows how many decades?
Before the advent of alleged Nickel-Hydrogen LENR, had any of you heard about an electron and a proton condensing into a neutron?
There are a lot of new concepts and unknowns here and my choice is to PROCEED WITH CAUTION and demand SOLID DATA.
Just because I want to wait for that groundswell of confirmation and approval coming from the physicists on up does not mean that I am a "disinformation agent." That's simply ridiculous.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 11, 2012, 04:43:48 AM
Take this for example: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/410964/neutron-beam
Have any people reading this ever in their lives heard about aiming a beam of neutrons at some nickel and hearing reports of copper being produced? Or any anomalies related to fusion energy signatures or fusion byproducts? They have been playing with neutron beams for who knows how many decades?
you talk about common sense and then you say something as asinine as this? ::) particle accelerators require HUGE amounts of energy. why would anyone spend so much to make copper when it is simply cheaper to mine it. particle accelerators are used to synthesize
precious metals like gold, palladium, osmium.
and... you don't have to be a bloody spy vs. spy "agent" to recognize this. arguably you just have to have some common sense.
Quote from: MileHigh on July 11, 2012, 04:43:48 AM
Just because I want to wait for that groundswell of confirmation and approval coming from the physicists on up does not mean that I am a "disinformation agent." That's simply ridiculous.
MileHigh
but you're not just waiting... you are countering EVERY post that isn't anti-rossi with your anti-rossi fanboi posts. ::) which usually consist of one logical fallacy or another. as chess said, if it looks like a duck...
Wilby:
Yes indeed, I went out on a limb there and I was wrong due to my ignorance. Not "common sense" but rather ignorance, because the average person is not reading nuclear research journals.
See, I can admit when I make a mistake.
But one more time, you are still at your game. You are fully aware that "common sense" is not at play here. In fact, I would not be surprised if you did some Googling before you came back to make that posting.
You really should seek medical help for your deep-rooted psychological problems Wilby.
MileHigh
Well well, my friends,
I think we all are stuck on the Ocean of uncertainty at this certain point, sitting in in our sailboats waiting for real winds to carry us on.
The only difference between us is which way our boats are directed in these horse latitudes, since we are two very opposite kinds of personalities represented here that expect the wind to come from opposite directions when it finally arrives.
The only thing we have right now are indications, and these are interpreted according to our individual preconceptions.
This is directed to both sides in this matter: There is not one bit more creditibility to the pessimist than the optimist at this point.
It is all about choosing side, or staying poised in between.
And remember, this is all fun, we should enjoy this period of uncertainty since we have nothing personal to defend.
Things just are as they are.
I am representing the optimist, and I have interpreted the history of AR as absolutely non criminal since I have read the full story behind his efforts in Italy to convert industry wastes into feasable engine fuels, which threatened to rip the oil industry of some 10 percent of their income, which in turn was the single reason for the lobbying and sudden introduction of a new law prohibiting waste storage without proper licenses. He was simply framed.
What many doesn't seem to bother looking up, is that Andrea Rossi was freed on all charges, and that the costs for this huge trial did cost him his whole family estate and every penny he owned, leaving him totally broke and crushed by his enemies.
So from my point of view, Andrea Rossi is a thrustworthy person and an environmentalist with high integrity and morals.
MileHigh,
if Andrea Rossi was such a paramount scammer of almost biblical proportions that you propose, how on earth would he ever be able to get away with it? ???
Do you for one second think that by now globally well known Andrea Rossi would have the slightest chance to get away with such a crime? The moment he was exposed, all his money and accounts would be traced and confiscated. He would also inevitably be disgracing himself and his wife and family to becoming one of the most hated persons on earth.
You must have realized by now that Andrea Rossi and the e-cat has become all to big to allow for any such schemes.
So why are you putting soo much energy into discrediting Andrea Rossi?
Why is it soo important for you to stall all optimism? Especially when so many things actually indicates that the E-cat is for real.
Don't you like sound optimism?
Gwandau
Milehigh does express quite clearly the difficulties in moving from the lab to the production line. This move is even made more difficult when the product involves decentralization of power. I imagine anyone purchasing a LENR device would have to obtain a license to operate a nueclear power device from governing agencies who regulate neuclear energy, (unless this falls below some threshold or into a loophole.) Being pragmatic should not be mistaken for being a pessimist. I think Rossi has taken a very crafty stance in all this. He is bascially not promising anything. You want it here it is buy it with no implied or expressed guarantees. There is no legal recourse the buyer has if he makes no representation as to what the buyer is paying for. He could sell them as curios like plasma balls in a joke shop. You may be able to pickup an Ecat down at the local mall. Show me the money here is your Ecat. He could hold an auction and let various groups bid on them. Once UL puts it seal of approval on it he can distribute them any way he wants.
sparks,
since the very LENR process in itself inhibits any radiation leakage besides infrared heat, the E-Cat seems a lot safer than a conventional Microwave oven.
If you look it up, you will find that this applies for LENR,CANR as well as for LENT processes since these are due to the same reaction syndrome.
There are many products for domestic use containing shielded radioactive material, such as fire alarms and so on,
so I don't think there would be any big problems for the producers of the oncoming LENR market to get things rolling.
You just can't get stuck on the word nuclear power device since it directly aims at the concept Nuclear Reactor ,
and we all know that LENR is NOT a nuclear fusion reaction in its commonly used sense.
By calling the E-cat a nuclear reactor you are deviating from facts. New facts, still to be thoroghly evaulated, but still nothing close to a old school nuclear reaction.
Look around you, there is plenty of questionable radiating marketed products all around us.
Domestic products like microwave ovens are potential killers if the safety switch fails and radiation does not shut down when you open the microwave door.
Within seconds coagulated blood inside your exposed hand will be transported to vital organs such as the heart and the lungs, most likely giving you a lethal thrombus.
And did you know that micro wave ovens are even allowed to emit a certain allowed radiation leakage:
Quote from Autralian standard specifications:
" The microwave leakage at any point 50 millimetres or more from the external surface of the appliance shall not exceed 50 watts per square metre'.
This Standard applies to ovens designed for domestic applications."
To sum all this, to label the E-Cat as a nuclear reactor as explained by conventional science is same as posting false and misleading information.
Please guys, do your homework, otherwise wrongly based critiscism just lowers your own creditibilty.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on July 11, 2012, 10:27:11 AM
if Andrea Rossi was such a paramount scammer of almost biblical proportions that you propose, how on earth would he ever be able to get away with it? ???
Do you for one second think that by now globally well known Andrea Rossi would have the slightest chance to get away with such a crime? The moment he was exposed, all his money and accounts would be traced and confiscated. He would also inevitably be disgracing himself and his wife and family to becoming one of the most hated persons on earth.
You must have realized by now that Andrea Rossi and the e-cat has become all to big to allow for any such schemes.
So why are you putting soo much energy into discrediting Andrea Rossi?
Why is it soo important for you to stall all optimism? Especially when so many things actually indicates that the E-cat is for real.
Don't you like sound optimism?
Gwandau
This is seriously bonkers. Don't we remember the names of folks like Parendev, Bedini, Hutchinson, that annoying Searl guy, Stanley Meyer and even before the likes of Keely?? All were/are scammers and none of them have been brought to justice (ok Meyer is dead). Or remember Moller skycar?? That guy is also an scammer who has lived off his investors money which he got for giving them promises he knew he coudln't never fulfill.
I've been looking at overunity, freenergy and whatever "amazing" devices since i was about 14 .. now i'm 27 and after a college degree in physics and seeing hundreds of videos with devices which their owners claim to be self running I can't be convinced that these "inventors" are honest people. Why? Well they promised working devices eons ago and still nothing.. alot of these scammers are still alive so all these paranoid conspiracies about big oil hunting them are BS. Big oil and governments just do not have to interfere because there was never any need to.
Also you think that e-cat is big?? Biblical proportions?? Lol it's not.. the only ones who care about someone named Ross and his "e-cat" are few folks on the internet who kill their time in their basements try to rig up some funky magnet motors while being lied to by scammers all the time. Wake up. There are many places in physics and engineering that can help people become more energy independent but they're not found in videos of all of these liars who give claims that they never back up.
kokles,
Do you actually have missed the global LENR progress?
You seem quite lost on that sad self appointed old school desillusioned road of yours.
It's just that you are a little late for that kind of attitude.
Of course there are some scammers trying to fool the easy prey, we live in a predatory world, but you can just as easily get
lost in scam paranoia, you are especially prone to that if you have invested a lot of effort in the old school frame of reference.
So don't forget that there actually are people today doing novel discoveries, and also remember that many of these discoverys
did not evolve from orthodox concepts , but to the contrary were the result of people thinking outside the box.
Don't you see what's happening all around you, not only LENR is going into high efficiency state, with or without Andrea Rossi,
but many other great scientific brake-throughs as well, such as just recently high efficiency artificial photosynthesis by researchers from
the Department of Chemistry at the Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) in Stockholm, Sweden, among many other things.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120412105430.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120412105430.htm)
Look around you, you are missing the fun, it's 2012 and it's happening all around you.
Gwandau
Gwandau, Young, fresh out of brainwashing school - that explains most of it. ;)
@MileHigh:
I have read many LENR peer reviewed papers but I can't give you an exact count but I would estimate around 20. Just thought I would clear up this little piece of disinformation while I'm at it.
I saw all of the cut-n-paste comments from PESN.com's comment section. I just happened to notice that they are all negative comments. But after visiting the site and reading over them myself, I noticed that many of the comments are in support of LENR and Rossi. So why is it that you have only copied over the negative comments?
@Everyone:
This just shows more proof to support the existence of a disinformation agenda being carried out here in an attempt to blanket this thread with pure negative propaganda. It's a campaign and that is why it will continue. It's surely not objective as these comments have all been cherry picked and selected to fit this smear propaganda campaign. That is the real truth as to why they are all negative one sided selections. The propagandists will claim otherwise, just watch ::)
If it acts like a duck... ;)
Chess
Chess:
It's like you have a disinformation fetish.
QuoteJust thought I would clear up this little piece of disinformation while I'm at it.
There wasn't any. Go back and read what I said.
Quotesaw all of the cut-n-paste comments from PESN.com's comment section. I just happened to notice that they are all negative comments. But after visiting the site and reading over them myself, I noticed that many of the comments are in support of LENR and Rossi. So why is it that you have only copied over the negative comments?
To show that there are other people that also have made points that are similar to mine and think like me. So are we all on the payroll or what?
QuoteThis just shows more proof to support the existence of a disinformation agenda being carried out here in an attempt to blanket this thread with pure negative propaganda. It's a campaign and that is why it will continue.
This is simply not true. After reading the forums for several years in my opinion you are fairly high on the "disinformation-grand conspiracy alleger" scale of one to ten. I would say that you are about an eight, which is pretty high.
Note the ones that are at ten on the scale are comical kooks. Those are the people that are convinced when some electronics newbie that barely knows his ass from his elbow and takes down his junky amateur pulse motor clip from YouTube out of embarrassment after five days - they will say, "the MIB did a raid on his house and confiscated his motor and threatened him."
So you are approaching some rarefied territory there Chess, and your association with Rosie, the lady with a MOSFET circuit that doesn't even understand how the MOSFETs switch in her own circuit - that association pulls you higher up that scale.
All of your allegations that I am a "disinformation agent" are ridiculous nonsense. The last time somebody called me that in earnest was Aaron at the other place. Aaron writes books about electronics and energy yet he does not even understand how an inductor actually works - no kidding.
So the spaghetti is not sticking dude and the more you say it the more you hurt yourself in my opinion.
I don't get much of a sense that you have much real experience in the real world of electronics and product development and how to mass-produce something. I have moderate to lots of experience in those disciplines and I am calling it truthfully how I see it.
Those interviews with Rossi are embarrassing, both from the questioner's point of view and from Rossi's point of view. Sometimes it all looks like a silly game. Do you remember when the Romero craze really kicked in and people were posting questions to him like, "Should my rotor magnet separation be 12 mm or 16 mm" and Romero would answer "14 mm." Well that was all complete nonsense, a charade from both sides. I am not saying that Rossi is as bad as that but sometimes it gets close to that.
The main point being that you are endorsing something like it is "really real" and from my perspective it looks like a house of cards made with slices of Swiss cheese. And I am not saying that to be a "disinformation agent," I am saying that because that's what the actual evidence is showing us - it's right there in your face if you only would open your eyes.
Nobody even knows how the heat is being generated - and that's a piece of Swiss cheese for you right there.
I have seen such ridiculous folly on the forums over the years - mostly due to a lack of education mixed together with blind belief and extreme hope. I roll my eyes when I read, "This is based on "cold electricity" that is not understood by mainstream scientists and engineers." I roll my eyes when I read, "The engineer came over and was amazed by what he saw and he couldn't explain it." In all cases that is laughable nonsense - there is no such thing as "cold electricity" and the people making those statements barely even understand electronics themselves.
So it hurts to see the Rossi narrative not looking much better that your typical Joe Blow that just discovered that he can get a high-voltage shock from a coil and is convinced that he is dealing with "mysterious alternative 'cold electricity' that 'mainstream does not understand'" when it's a complete farce.
I am trying to seriously follow the Rossi saga and comment as it develops and I have you biting my ankle like some uneducated deluded newbie "cold electricity" fanatic.
That's the way the cookie crumbles. We DON'T have any solid data from Rossi as per several other people I quoted stated and we SHOULD. It's a goddamned box with electrical-in, cold-water-in, and hot-water-out. WTF?? Such a no-brainer and yet we don't have any credible data.
And when the hard-core believers hear that we don't have any credible test data they simply bury their hands in the sand. There is an analogy with the RomeroUK story once again - there wasn't even any Romero "secret sauce" - some sort of a story line to hook people - just a stupid lousy spinning pulse motor and people went wild. Imhotep rewired a lousy computer fan and people went wild. We the observers just have to do better than that, we just have to. No more sheep and lambs being led off to slaughter, think before you leap!
MileHigh
Quote from: Gwandau on July 11, 2012, 01:48:59 PM
sparks,
since the very LENR process in itself inhibits any radiation leakage besides infrared heat, the E-Cat seems a lot safer than a conventional Microwave oven.
If you look it up, you will find that this applies for LENR,CANR as well as for LENT processes since these are due to the same reaction syndrome.
There are many products for domestic use containing shielded radioactive material, such as fire alarms and so on,
so I don't think there would be any big problems for the producers of the oncoming LENR market to get things rolling.
You just can't get stuck on the word nuclear power device since it directly aims at the concept Nuclear Reactor ,
and we all know that LENR is NOT a nuclear fusion reaction in its commonly used sense.
By calling the E-cat a nuclear reactor you are deviating from facts. New facts, still to be thoroghly evaulated, but still nothing close to a old school nuclear reaction.
Look around you, there is plenty of questionable radiating marketed products all around us.
Domestic products like microwave ovens are potential killers if the safety switch fails and radiation does not shut down when you open the microwave door.
Within seconds coagulated blood inside your exposed hand will be transported to vital organs such as the heart and the lungs, most likely giving you a lethal thrombus.
And did you know that micro wave ovens are even allowed to emit a certain allowed radiation leakage:
Quote from Autralian standard specifications:
" The microwave leakage at any point 50 millimetres or more from the external surface of the appliance shall not exceed 50 watts per square metre'.
This Standard applies to ovens designed for domestic applications."
To sum all this, to label the E-Cat as a nuclear reactor as explained by conventional science is same as posting false and misleading information.
Please guys, do your homework, otherwise wrongly based critiscism just lowers your own creditibilty.
Gwandau
The powers that be have taken control over the entire electro-magnetic wave spectrum. To believe that they will not control anything that outputs gamma is being naive. The transmutation process is a neuclear manipulation. Again we have these people who want to control anything to do with neuclear manipulation. These people are real and very motivated. The ecat doesn't heat the water by majic. When a proton is fused into a neucleus the mass of the proton is less than when the proton was unbound. This difference in mass is RADIATED. This is a simple mass to energy conversion. The radiation is then absorbed by something that is heated by rf current voltage drop which depends upon the resistance of the object to be heated. So in this particular transmutation the process is a mass to energy conversion. The unbound proton is more massive than the bound proton. The difference is radiated. My point is that this is a neuclear manipulation resulting in power which pretty much classifies it as a neuclear power device. I would hope that Rossi if he has something is trying to sell it to persons not residing in the US. The land of the free and the brave has become the land of the slaves and cowards I'm afraid. I just don't see any local public health officials allowing bottles of hydrogen sitting around in my apartment hooked up to some weird water heater.
Quote from: sparks on July 12, 2012, 08:51:22 AM
... When a proton is fused into a neucleus the mass of the proton is less than when the proton was unbound. This difference in mass is RADIATED. This is a simple mass to energy conversion. The radiation is then absorbed by something that is heated by rf current voltage drop which depends upon the resistance of the object to be heated. So in this particular transmutation the process is a mass to energy conversion. The unbound proton is more massive than the bound proton. The difference is radiated. ...
sparks,
This is a typical misunderstanding which reflect the minds of many "old school" conditioned people today who find LENR hard to accept.
Your description above is an gross oversimplification of LENR, which is a delicate and quite intricate and hitherto not fully understood process, perhaps making the coloumb barrier act as a semi transtarent mirror as suggested by some, quite contrary to the rather simple and almost direct nuclear reaction of mass to energy conversion in the primitive and violent hot fusion method.
You have to understand that the +50 year old hot fusion method is a brute force method really lacking any understanding of how to overcome the Coloumb barrier without bombarding the target with an overdose of energy.
It's like bombing the front door instead of using the proper key to open the door.
The nuclear scientists haven't yet nailed the exact process but the Widom-Larsen theory is by far the most intriguing,
and below is a condensation of that theory copied from an earlier post by gravityblock:
"Widom-Larsen Theory explains Low Energy Nuclear Reactions & why they are safe and green.
The W-L theory also explains why hard gamma and X-rays are not released during LENR system operation. This arises from unique heavy-mass electrons created by the very strong nanoscale electric fields that occur in regions above localized patches of collectively oscillating protons and deuterons where neutron production and absorption are taking place. Unlike isolated normal-mass electrons situated in a vacuum or a hot plasma, heavy-mass electrons created in condensed matter LENR systems can directly absorb a hard gamma or X-ray photon, “ring like a bell†for an infinitesimal fraction of a second, then (according to conservation of energy) re-radiate a much larger number of much less energetic photons (mostly in the infrared region, with a much smaller ‘tail’ of soft X-ray photons).
In operating LENR systems, therefore, hard gamma ray photons in an energy range between 0.5 MeV and 10.0 MeV (often created during absorption of ULM neutrons by some, but not all, atoms/isotopes) are locally absorbed by heavy-mass electrons before they can escape. Those electrons then convert the absorbed gammas directly into raw heat in the form of benign infrared photons that are also locally absorbed. LENR systems have what amounts to built-in gamma shielding during operation, a remarkable property by any standard.
A gamma-absorbing ‘patch layer’ of heavy-mass electrons in an LENR system has the ability to stop a very dangerous (~5 MeV) gamma ray in less than two nanometres. Whereas it would take ~10 cm of lead, ~25 cm of steel, or ~1 metre of very heavy concrete to accomplish the same degree of protection against ‘hard’ gamma radiation."
Gwandau
@Everyone:
The latest word from Rossi is that he assures everyone that reports are on the way and he wants us all to be patient. Keep in mind that Rome was not built in one day.
What this technology represents is absolutely phenomenal and the fact that Rossi is the one who is the furthest along in the advance of this new technology is exciting to say the least. Rossi's devices reaching the market represents a huge victory for mankind and the preservation of our species.
"Good things come to those who wait..." and so on this note, I'll close for now.
Best wishes,
Chess
I really don't care about intermediate steps but the overall reaction is H + Ni= Cu + Energy It consumes hydrogen and nickel with a high yield of heat. What this heat will be used for is my concern. Without a paradigm shift where man becomes less concerned with his machines and more concerned with his fellow lifeforms I see this device or any device that has the potential to accelerate man's industrial folly as no different than a piece of coal. Don't you realize that the industrial revolution is an industrial disaster. It has threatened the entire ecosystem of the planet producing machines. It has resulted in a huge amount of energy now residing in machines and waste heat. We are still a pack of exploitave monkies who travel in the jungle picking fruit and defeceating all over the place never looking back. Relying on a group of half-wits called leaders to find the next fruit tree to demolish. The industrialization of China is the straw that broke the camels back. Millions of farmers are now machine slaves. The US industrialized china. Now the entire Northern hemisphere on Earth is producing machines. Farmers are growing fuel crops to burn in machines that make machines. We are totally wacked tool monkies. No more sophisticated than the first monkey to use a stick to bat down a bannana.
Quote from: sparks on July 13, 2012, 09:30:31 AM
We are totally wacked tool monkies. No more sophisticated than the first monkey to use a stick to bat down a bannana.
So then tools do help prevent starvation?
Quote from: sparks on July 13, 2012, 09:30:31 AM
...
...
That's all truth. But, who is responsible for giving us our consciousness? Yet each single human being has different wit. It's pretty old knowledge that the civilization is self-destroying. And the culprit is one: our cosciousness; still not the top quality, still found only in religious and New Age movement. People are not perfect. But this is the choice of THE CREATOR.
On Don Smith's site there is (was) a story of an experiment with monkeys and their consciousness. I find it nicely explained how the community (maybe even global) consciousness work. But I can't find this site and the story anymore.
Quote from: Qwert on July 13, 2012, 10:52:23 AM
That's all truth. But, who is responsible for giving us our consciousness? Yet each single human being has different wit. It's pretty old knowledge that the civilization is self-destroying. And the culprit is one: our cosciousness; still not the top quality, still found only in religious and New Age movement. People are not perfect. But this is the choice of THE CREATOR.
On Don Smith's site there is (was) a story of an experiment with monkeys and their consciousness. I find it nicely explained how the community (maybe even global) consciousness work. But I can't find this site and the story anymore.
The first step in awareness is to contemplate exactly what we are. Our physical beings can best be described as walking talking intestines designed by nature to create soil fertilization. Somewhere along the line we developed into chemical computers. Unfortunately the lack of imagination and selfawareness of the people who spawned the industrial age leaves their great great grandchildren on the brink of extinction. There were many who saw this time coming but the cruel slavemasters who seized control and created the industrial age could care less. They are a species who jumped off the evolutiionary train to higher orders of consiousness a long long time ago. I doubt these people have access to any higher levels of consiousness because they haven't evolved enough brain mass to body weight to allow higher reasoning skills necessary to achieve simple self-awareness.
@Everyone:
A new article just published titled "Rossi on Domestic E-Cats (Home Depot Still Involved)" reveals some new details regarding distribution:
"Our goal is to bring it to Home Depot in the United States. We already have contacts, and they are waiting for the certification to be done. But, we will sell it through the Home Depot chain."
The full article can be found here:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/07/rossi-on-domestic-e-cats-home-depot-still-involved/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/07/rossi-on-domestic-e-cats-home-depot-still-involved/)
Chess
sparks and Qwert,
Nothing really is wrong.
Mankind just is in its childhood phase.
I bet primitive industrial ages like the present human one are quite commonly represented in our universe,
even if there of course also are other choices of direction done, consciously avoiding the technological road due to
a deeper understanding of the dynamics of our existence.
But we humans lack that type of unison conceptual depth and coherence needed for a global evolution into non-ego consciousness.
Thus are we stuck with the far more gross and uncertain evolutionary alternative, just like the route inevitably taken by
many other non prime species in the galactic family.
I say it agin, nothing is really wrong, this is simply how we are due to the nature of the human mind.
Most certainly "A hard rain is gonna fall", and our road will be rough, really rough at times, and maybe we won't make it this time either.
But remember one thing, this is not the first time.
And not the last.
Gwandau
Gwandau:
Take a look at this Rossi quote, myself and Rossi agree about the unlikelihood of seeing E-Cats for domestic electricity production for the foreseeable future:
http://www.freeenergysystems.com/Andrea_Rossi_Discusses_The_E-Cat_Part_2/ (http://www.freeenergysystems.com/Andrea_Rossi_Discusses_The_E-Cat_Part_2/)
QuoteFES: Moving forward do you envision a day where you will be not only able to heat your home with an E-Cat, but in addition to that, get electricity from the E-Cat as well?
AR: You know the electricity issue is bound to the temperature that we are able to bring to the wall of the reactor, to have good efficiency. So, it will be very difficult to make this in the domestic apparatuses because it is very complex and when the reactor reaches certain temperatures. I also think that the certification will be very difficult, honestly. And, while we already are ready to make electricity in the industrial plant, because in these days, we are making very thorough tests, with very high temperature reactors which will be able to produce steam at very high temperatures obtaining very good performances in terms of efficiency. Therefore, it will be absolutely possible in a short term, but we make electricity by means of industrial plants, while to make electricity with a domestic client is a long shot, because there is a long road map.
First of all we need the certification done for the heating systems. Then, we will design how to make electricity, which will be also complicated technologically. Because you know, to make electricity, you need a turbine to have a good efficiency. You have to go to very high temperatures, at least. You need a condenser. And you know, to put all this in a house, I think that is very, very, very difficult at the moment, honestly.
The problems are two-fold, technology and economics. Although the technology exists, turbines and condensers and transmissions and generators, it doesn't exist in a "nice neat package." That is only arrived at by successive generations/iterations of design. And it's too expensive to be cost-competitive with other "life solutions" for getting your electricity. So for the foreseeable future at least, there aren't going to be many jet turbines in the basements of people's houses.
That's not to say it can't happen, no one really knows how far out the "foreseeable future" is.
Here is an example: In the mid-Eighties the computer industry was just as dynamic as it is now and growing very fast. In 1988 you could have made something like an iPad, it was perfectly feasible technically. The only problem is relative to 1988, an iPad would require a full server room full of computers and an ultra-exotic very expensive high-resolution touch display. You could have made an iPad in 1988 but it would have cost millions of dollars and taken up a large computer server room, toilet plunger and all.
So the E-Cat is like an iPad made in 1988 right now, if the technology gets vetted. Who knows what it will be like in 25 years from now if the technology evolves with the times.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 14, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
Here is an example: In the mid-Eighties the computer industry was just as dynamic as it is now and growing very fast. In 1988 you could have made something like an iPad, it was perfectly feasible technically. The only problem is relative to 1988, an iPad would require a full server room full of computers and an ultra-exotic very expensive high-resolution touch display. You could have made an iPad in 1988 but it would have cost millions of dollars and taken up a large computer server room, toilet plunger and all.
So the E-Cat is like an iPad made in 1988 right now, if the technology gets vetted. Who knows what it will be like in 25 years from now if the technology evolves with the times.
MileHigh
Na, they didnt have the processor speed, memory(speed and size, display tech, nor the battery technology. Let alone the industrialization in micro electronics. Do you remember the size of the first cell phones? Touch screen has been around for a while.
But I would say that maybe you have it backwards when it comes to developing turbines. That has been going on, heck, Tesla worked with it. lol Wind mills and water wheels, how far does that go back.
It used to be $3500 for a tubo in a honda civic, now you can gettum fer $100 or less, and they work. If you beat on them and abuse them, well...
How about this then. Instead of heating water, why not integrate the ecat with a sterling engine to run a gen. No big noises like a steam engine.
The main point is if the ecat can produce a lot out with less in. How we use that is not only restricted to heating chicken coops, as you once posted. How degrading is that.
Mags
Mags:
No I was being serious. Large-scale poultry factory farms need lots of cheap heat and they would be potential first customers.
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on July 14, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
The problems are two-fold, technology and economics. Although the technology exists, turbines and condensers and transmissions and generators, it doesn't exist in a "nice neat package." That is only arrived at by successive generations/iterations of design. And it's too expensive to be cost-competitive with other "life solutions" for getting your electricity. So for the foreseeable future at least, there aren't going to be many jet turbines in the basements of people's houses.
That's not to say it can't happen, no one really knows how far out the "foreseeable future" is.
MileHigh
I don't see why anyone would connect this modern technology to the obsolete turbines of today to produce electrical energy when you could use a modern chip to convert the heat directly to electrical output at nearly 100% efficiency.
It's already near production.
Yes, the future is comming and you cannot stop it!
Just a note of interest concerning fusion. The below patent is one of Farnsworth's patents. This man was brilliant and gave us Televison and fusion technology. His fusion device is used for a neutron scouce. His technology was originally licensed to the communications monopoly IT&T the communications grid owner's. They funded his research for awhile and gave him some shares. When the contract expired they showed him the door. He cashed his itt shares and produced his own lab and his lifeline more or less followed that of what the politicians did to Tesla once they knew he had the goods. You will notice in this patent listing below the names of the folks who proceeded with his research. University of California seems to have it going on.
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=3386883 (http://www.google.com/patents?vid=3386883)
MileHigh,
I agree with you, provided that our present unability to foresee future scientific and technological developments are drastically changed.
But as far as I am concerned, I am not dependent upon the realization of a domestic Electric E-Cat, even a simple old fashioned piston driven steam machine would do nice for the few Kilowatts I need to produce.
And a simple well kept trucklift battery kit would do just fine to store the excess generated power needed for any temporary loads above the capacity of the generator.
If I get the four E-cats pre-booked in my name, nothing will stop me to get off the grid. Just wait and see.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
I believe you will be successful in getting off the grid with even the low temperature E-Cat home units. You certainly possess the aptitude.
I just uploaded a video which details my current project and I thought you might be interested.
Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVbkdxL84NI&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVbkdxL84NI&feature=plcp)
Best regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on July 17, 2012, 03:09:42 AM
@Gwandau:
I believe you will be successful in getting off the grid with even the low temperature E-Cat home units. You certainly possess the aptitude.
I just uploaded a video which details my current project and I thought you might be interested.
Here's the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVbkdxL84NI&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVbkdxL84NI&feature=plcp)
Best regards,
Chess
Nice one Chess I like it.Good presentation.
Have you see today`s E Cat news ? http://www.e-catworld.com/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/)
They seem to be getting there a Non-uniform effect.I will say this.The Rossi secret catalyst is no more or no less than the Nernst Ettinghausen Effect.
Regards Dave 8)
Chess,
this HHO project of yours sounds really intriguing and I'm certainly looking forward to the continuation.
I have some project ideas about experimenting with two tailorsuited high frequency PWM:s working resonantly upon an integrated dual HHO system.
Resonance effects seems to be the key to anything being executed in the Planck scale of events.
Have you heard about Frederick W. Wood's claims?
Frederick and I had some e-mail communication 2010 regarding the development of his "Hydrogen Hog" which he believed would change the world.
Later I got an email from him were he said he was subjected to several murder attempts, one with a gun, which was exactly what I had warned him about earlier.
I don't know Frederick well enough to beyond doubt back him up as a truly honest guy, but during our communication he never tried to sell his HHO system to me and I regarded him as a nice guy with high integrity but with a bit naive attitude to the dangers of the suppresion schemes I warned him for and which he later found to be well founded.
To those not heard about Frederick W. Wood, he was more commonly known as Fast Freddy with his so called "Hydrogen Hog", a man who claimed to have been driving 3000 miles on mere water using his high pressure HHO system for a 55 liter per minute production, enough to drive a car on and simultaneously generating enough electricity to keep the Meyer like HHO system going.
He says that shortly after his first five customers got their Hydrogen Hogs installed, these HHO systems were confiscated by people from the Homeland Security, and shortly thereafter all his computers and workshop inventory were stolen, and all his companys bank accounts were emptied. Today he only seems to sell common HHO systems aimed for lower mileage.
Some time has passed since his last e-mail, and I think will write him and ask what really happened that made him withdraw from the former position of revolutionary HHO production.
In my opinion the only way to stay unharmed or unaffected by eventual suppressors, is going open source. That way the enemy get toothless and harmless. Anyone attempting to play the money game for self reward, which always will be equal to playing on the terms of those with most money, will stick his head right into the jaws of the enemy.
That's why I am quite concerned about the fate of Andrea Rossi.
Hopefully the times finally are changing in favour for the new energy paradigm.
Gwandau
Another poster turned me on to this. The US is infested with people who bought into Mose's bullshit. He was a murdering thief. Not all of the 12 tribes of Judea bought into this despots beliefs and have lived side by side with other tribes for eons. A zonist extemist is running the Bush founded gestapo. Just look at this things Ears and look at George Bush's. They did it right in front of our noses because most Americans are a bunch of brainwashed slaves who don't want to pull their fucking head of the sand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv1kzLXyZ4k&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv1kzLXyZ4k&feature=related)
Gwandau:
It's depressing to me that you would believe any of the Fast Freddie story. Technically, he doesn't know his ass from his elbow and that should be all the info you need to dismiss him as a con artist.
He is almost universally considered to be a con artist by people on the forums.
MileHigh
Quote from: Gwandau on July 17, 2012, 09:09:24 PM
Chess,
this HHO project of yours sounds really intriguing and I'm certainly looking forward to the continuation.
I have some project ideas about experimenting with two tailorsuited high frequency PWM:s working resonantly upon an integrated dual HHO system.
Resonance effects seems to be the key to anything being executed in the Planck scale of events.
Have you heard about Frederick W. Wood's claims?
Frederick and I had some e-mail communication 2010 regarding the development of his "Hydrogen Hog" which he believed would change the world.
Later I got an email from him were he said he was subjected to several murder attempts, one with a gun, which was exactly what I had warned him about earlier.
I don't know Frederick well enough to beyond doubt back him up as a truly honest guy, but during our communication he never tried to sell his HHO system to me and I regarded him as a nice guy with high integrity but with a bit naive attitude to the dangers of the suppresion schemes I warned him for and which he later found to be well founded.
To those not heard about Frederick W. Wood, he was more commonly known as Fast Freddy with his so called "Hydrogen Hog", a man who claimed to have been driving 3000 miles on mere water using his high pressure HHO system for a 55 liter per minute production, enough to drive a car on and simultaneously generating enough electricity to keep the Meyer like HHO system going.
He says that shortly after his first five customers got their Hydrogen Hogs installed, these HHO systems were confiscated by people from the Homeland Security, and shortly thereafter all his computers and workshop inventory were stolen, and all his companys bank accounts were emptied. Today he only seems to sell common HHO systems aimed for lower mileage.
Some time has passed since his last e-mail, and I think will write him and ask what really happened that made him withdraw from the former position of revolutionary HHO production.
In my opinion the only way to stay unharmed or unaffected by eventual suppressors, is going open source. That way the enemy get toothless and harmless. Anyone attempting to play the money game for self reward, which always will be equal to playing on the terms of those with most money, will stick his head right into the jaws of the enemy.
That's why I am quite concerned about the fate of Andrea Rossi.
Hopefully the times finally are changing in favour for the new energy paradigm.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
Yes, I did do some research of this individual and I lost interest when I realized that he veered (at least in my opinion) from a true Stan Meyer-like fuel cell design.
a) He used an electrolyte and Stan did not. Although Stan did claim that any water could be used in his fuel cell, Stan only used ordinary tap water without any electrolyte added. In fact, he made a live video demonstation to prove to some spectators that he was only using ordinary tap water.
b) Stan's cell did not use the high amperage draw that Freddy's cell did. In fact, Stan's current draw was around 1/2 an Amp. There is a HUGE gap between 1/2 an amp and 75 amps.
c) Freddy's cell developed waste heat in the water bath after extended test runs. Stan's did not. In fact, Stan's process was so efficient that he could run his fuel cell for hours on end and the temperature of the water bath would remain the same. For the amount of hydrogen and oxygen emitted from the electrodes, using conventional electrolysis, the water would have boiled. Waste heat is a common sign of lost efficiencies and with Stan's technology, there was absolutely none. This is also not true concerning Fast Freddy's cell.
Now I don't if Freddy is a con man or not. I just found that his research started taking me away from the Meyer's approach and I chose to keep my focus on his work instead. The only thing that I have added to Stan's work is the ability to control the cell and subsequent circuitry with a mini-PLC controller (or smart relay) for safety reasons.
Thank you for checking out my recently uploaded YouTube video. I hope that I can replicate Stan's technology successfully and I will give it my best shot.
Best regards,
Chess
MileHigh,
thanks for caring about the validity of my outlook on the HHO scene, but as I said, I don't know Frederick well enough to beyond doubt back him up as a truly honest guy, so you really don't need to be that depressed.
On the other hand, what people think about this guy at the forums only carry weight if they are first person witnesses subjected to wrongs by this man.
Otherwise they are just gossiping and executing self appointed conclusions without any first person sources.
Word stand against word here, and IF, and I stress IF, Fast Freddy actually was subjected to suppression, we both know that this wouldn't be the first time FBI, or as in this case according to Frederick, The Homeland Security, came and confiscated the inventory.
But again, don't be depressed, I do not take any firm standpoint in this matter either, neither do I intend to deal any dire strikes of judgement based on gossip.
Gwandau
Chessnyt,
thanks for elucidating the differences for me, it is obvious that Stan Meyer was quite a bit more sophisticated regarding the understanding of efficient HHO production.
And as MileHigh with great worry and depression emphasizes, this Fast Freddy may just as well be one of these fortune seekers having a go at the easy prey. If such is the case, any information extracted from his concept will be deviating from a successful path.
I have a feeling that the Stan Meyer effect is due to Quantum processes far down in the Planck scale of events, which explaines the difficulties for the orthodox science to understand what is happening.
Gwandau
Ecats could also be used in a refrigeration process that are commonly called expansion units. These units use heat and no compressor. They do require a thermal transfer medium of some sort. Large units could be produced in the deserts where they would condense atmospheric water vapor and provide the conditions for plant growth needed. Sunlight and water appears to be the needed ingrediants to support life. The second law of thermal dynamics does not apply to an expanding system. The expansion refrigeraton process is testimony to this. The archaic use of cooling towers and fans could be bypassed by the production of coherent light. The lasers or masers employed then beam the light into space where the heat is finally removed from Earth's atmosphere.
Along the same lines. An electrical process that forms plasma is endothermic. The plasma can then be transported to where you need the heat and condensed back into hot gasses. The process is commonly used in automobile ignition systems. The input from the battery forms a plasma in the spark gap. The electron's in the combustion chamber gasses are drawn into the production of the plasma forming between the electrode's The plasma itself is cold. Upon release of the confinement field the plasma disintegrates causing the stored energy used to create the plasma to be released at an astounding rate causing heating of the fuel to initiate the fuel BURN. The burning fuel expands the non-combustibles. ( Oil companies are now dissolving large amounts of nitrogen into their fuels. This allows for the thermal energy released due to the oxidation of carbon and hydrogen to result in the necessary expansion of the gasses in the combustion chamber to be aquired with lower octane fuels. This is a good move by them because less energy is consumed in fuel formulation in the refineries.) The exhaust stroke removes the heated fuel and dumps it into the atmosphere. Hydrogen and Oxygen in the proper timing sequence will cause an implosion when combined in the absence of inert gasses. An engine could be easily modified to intake oxygen and hydrogen and caused to implode after the intake stroke. The vacuum produced then takes advantage of atmospheric pressure to drive the piston towards the cylinder head. At tdc the inlet valve is opened again and hydrogen and oxygen are supplied to the cylinder. The two stroke mistimed engine would accumulate hot water so a small exhaust port would have to be engineered. This process regularly occurs in engines that have too lean a mixture. The detonation of the gasses does not create pressure but vacuum conditions in a cylinder fed with too lean a mixture. The cylinders then lift the intake valves off their seats and the familiar mechanical noise called knock are detected.
I performed an experiment where plasma was fromed from two electrodes that were raised at the same potential until coronal discharges were induced in a vary specific geometry. The resulting extraction of the thermal energy from the surrounding field was astounding. Cooling effects 6 feet from the two plasma forming electrodes were recorded. I had no idea where the thermal energy was going until I took into account the wide spectrum of electromagnetic radiation emanating from the two plasma cones. There was absolutely no electrode heating. The electrodes were magnetically manufactured in such a manner as to insulate them from any thermal degradation by use of magnetic confinment of a space charge about each electrode. The electrodes were pulsed at 15khz 30,000 volts dc + above ground. The resultant conversion of thermal energy into coherent electromagnetic energy could easily have been collected on various transducers used in place of my eyes. The wide spectrum of emradiation was observed ranging from ultraviolet to white light with absolutely no spectrum emissions due to chemical degradation of the electrodes.
Quote from: Loner on July 19, 2012, 04:47:28 PM
Sparks, Very interesting, but as one who has spent a LOT of time building racing engines, I thought I should mention a couple things. 1) An absolute vacuum in the combustion chamber would NOT open either intake or exhaust valve. Where you came up with such an idea should be noted, as that source of info should be disregarded. If such a thing were possible, then low throttle, high vacuum operation would be impossible, never mind normal deceleration. 2) The "Knock" sound is produced by what is normally called "Detonation", which put simply just means too high a burn rate. Though most think of the combustion chamber having explosions inside, it's really just a fast burn. An explosion, when it happens, causes the "Knock". I won't go into further details, as there are more than would fit in a small book, but the idea that an HO implosion could open a valve just was too far "Out there" for me to ignore. Yes, I have run an ICE on HHO. Always remember, for greatest mechanical leverage, the greatest pressure is desired from 35 to 55 degrees ATDC. That should explain WHY timing is set where it is and must be advanced as RPM increases, etc. I hope that helps. (And yes I know that there are certain fuel types that alter those specifications, but that's another looong boring post that no-one wants to read.)
As to plasma being cool, I don't know, but plasma cutters I have used seem to produce heat. I will need to do a bit of personal experimentation to see the effects you are discussing. If you mean production of plasma without an arc, then I would be interested in how that is accomplished with just two electrodes, at the same potential, with no discharge to a second conduction point. I must admit, I am quite mystified. If you are suggesting a cold arc, wouldn't that be a suggestion of "Cold Electricity"? Obviously, I have insufficient information to form a cogent theory on this concept.
To all, sorry about the off-topic stuff, but it is interesting. I'm still in "Waiting" mode on the e-cat, so I cannot really comment on the proper thread topic.
When the mixture is leaned out and there is not enough fuel expansion the cylinder pressure drops to zero then into vacuum as the crankshaft inertia continues to drive the piston the rest of the way to tdb. This is so detremental to operation of the engine most engineers will run a car rich when a defective oxygen sensor sends the ecm into default modes. They have no idea what kind of gogo juice your running.
The implosion engine I suggested is the exact opposite of an ice. It would also need a modified ignition system to trigger the water formation. It also does not need the energy robbing compression stroke which is again just fuel preperation. You want a gas to expand in the piston we would be better off with running hydrogen peroxide into the piston through a silver screen catalyst. I think Stan Myers was doing this but he was up to so much it is hard to figure it out. Imagine instead of making on demand hoh you made on demand rocket fuel. Damn loner you could win em all. :)
@Loner:
The news concerning the E-Cat has slowed down to a trickle so I think that this is sort of a nice intermission if you will.
The latest news I have is that Rossi has just recently stated that the certificators are going to require that contractors change the 6 month refill/cartridge for the customer. Rossi must comply in order to get his residential product launched. This of course adds considerably to the yearly cost of operating the home version E-Cat.
It can't always be good news but I have to present the truth.
Regarding HHO:
Speaking of engines, I have purchased a four stroke test engine which has no computerized controls to bypass and is also carburated as Stan Meyer's first test engine was. I do plan to dilute the fuel (HHO) with inert gasses by recycling some of the exhaust gasses filtered through a bubbler. This should slow down the burn rate of the HHO allowing me to adjust it to equal that of gasoline. Of course, I am a long ways off from running this engine and I know it. First I must get the demonstration cell right and properly performing as Stan's was.
Regards,
Chess
@Loner:
Thanks for the great information and tips on running an engine on HHO. Like I said, I'm a long ways off as I am dedicated to finishing the demonstration cell build first. I'm going to make a guest appearance on a web based talk show in August to discuss the build. Look for a formal announcement from my home forum.
Best regards,
Chess
I would hope that Rossi has more customers on the hook than Home Depot. Third world nations is where this device belongs. I don't think a village in Africa has too many permitting agencies involved in transporting water from rivers and boiling same for disinfection and particulate removal. I could be wrong but these people spend a large portion of their day transporting water. I am sure that their appreciation for such a device would payoff in rewards that money just can not buy. Rossi could by restructuring into a non-profit also position himself for large tax reductions and grant money from a large number of philanthropists concerned with the state of the entire human race and are not false wealth chasers.
Sorry for the intrustion into this thread but I have been studying the Casmier force where two electrically neutral plates (I have no idea where you get two electrically neutral anything but...) when brought to within 300nanometers of each other appear to develop gravitational attraction. 300 nanometers is a quarterwavelength of infrared photons. An these photons all have an energy of 1.03333..... electron volts. When these electromagnetic waves charge the metal plates they get gravitized. I think they simply get charged with infrared photons and the Casimier force is nothing but coolumb force between two points in space of unequal charge density. In either case zero point energy may lie in the emradiation band. I think this is why Einstein did the one experiment he did. When near to all the thermal photons were extracted from the condensate it started to crawl out of it's container. Like the thermal photons were making it heavy. This is why I am also intrigued with electrostatic cooling. It appears that a very dense electrostatic field is able to alter the wavelength of infrared radiation into lower frequency waves which can then be captured on antennae of longer wavelengths and fed into devices for example, old crystal sets that don't need a battery to drive a speaker. I would also like to note that we never see plasma as it does not radiate electromagnetic waves. What we see is very high frequency electromagnetic waves as the plasma cools back into hot gasses in the photosphere and corona regions of the Sun.
@Everyone:
The E-Cat arrives at another milestone. The 1000 degree C threshold has been achieved with absolutely stable control.
Here's an excerpt from the most recent article detailing this significant advance:
"This is apparently the major breakthrough he referred to last Thursday when he said (http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=666&cpage=3#comment-281620): "In this week we got momentous events."
This is astounding news for many reasons. Temperatures of over 1,000ºC with total stability would allow for easier compatibility with devices that could allow for a direct conversion of heat into electricity. For example, thermo electric generators (TEGs) and thermo photo voltaic devices (TPVs). With these technologies, heat can be converted directly to electricity without steam being generated or any moving parts required. However, they require high temperatures to efficiently convert heat into electricity. The good news is that temperatures of over 1,000ºC should be more than high enough to be compatible with them. "
The full article can be found here:
http://pesn.com/2012/07/23/9602143_Rossis_E-Cat_Hits_1000_Degrees_C/ (http://pesn.com/2012/07/23/9602143_Rossis_E-Cat_Hits_1000_Degrees_C/)
Enjoy,
Chess
What does a 1000 degrees centegrade mean? How much mass is heated to 1000 degrees and what is the delta t. I routinely achieve temperatures way in excess of 1ooo degrees in a simple coronal discharge.
I can tell from your question that you are either a clown, or a snake. (tms A. Rossi).
No doubt these temperature numbers are numbers that can be reproduced on Rossi's instruments on demand. Therefore you have no valid reason to question them.
Just as, when you smell the odor of a feedlot, you have no reason to doubt that there is a lot of BS nearby.
Since I for various reasons have chosen to stay open minded to the reported progress of the E-Cat, I am here getting quite concerned about his safety.
We have to understand that if Andrea Rossi is walking his talk, he has now entered the stage of development that inevitably will trigger some dire schemes against him.
How these will be executed I can only guess, since there are a lot of ways to stall one single threat such in this case, especially when the origin of threat is located to a quite small number of persons. The point in time when such schemes will go into active mode depend fully upon what type of path is chosen. There is a worst case scenario possible, which will not be executed until the moment when Andrea Rossi is getting a major media interest.
The worst case scenario is staging an accident where Andrea Rossi dies in an uncontrollable anomalous reaction caused by a suddenly detonating high temperature E-cat. That will stop the whole project and get everything connected to the E-cat confiscated for security reasons. A chain reaction of restrictions will follow and affect any further research in the LENR field.
This would stall LENR for many decades, securing the development plans of the huge oil deposits found in gravel as well as the likewise controversial plans of boring for oil beneath the arctic sea.
The other way to stall him would be by using the media engine discriminatively, which would be an easy thing since media is mainly owned by the same guys who have invested in the oil business. Maybe they will start with the media campaign in discrediting him by a set of nicely staged situations that will force AR to postpone his E-Cat entering market. Any greater delays beyond 2013 definitely will get all sceptics going and the media will do the rest. Thereafter destroy his facilities and production lines through a series of unfortunate events making his explanations about being framed stand out in media as the futile words of a scammer trying to cling to his deceptive schemes.
Let's hope he is better prepared than those other guys like Victor Schauberger and Royal Raymond Rife who also where about to change our world if it weren't for their sorrowful naivety and belief in the good of man.
Otherwise this story will come to an extremely sad end.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on July 26, 2012, 07:41:18 PM
Since I for various reasons have chosen to stay open minded to the reported progress of the E-Cat, I am here getting quite concerned about his safety.
We have to understand that if Andrea Rossi is walking his talk, he has now entered the stage of development that inevitably will trigger some dire schemes against him.
How these will be executed I can only guess, since there are a lot of ways to stall one single threat such in this case, especially when the origin of threat is located to a quite small number of persons. The point in time when such schemes will go into active mode depend fully upon what type of path is chosen. There is a worst case scenario possible, which will not be executed until the moment when Andrea Rossi is getting a major media interest.
The worst case scenario is staging an accident where Andrea Rossi dies in an uncontrollable anomalous reaction caused by a suddenly detonating high temperature E-cat. That will stop the whole project and get everything connected to the E-cat confiscated for security reasons. A chain reaction of restrictions will follow and affect any further research in the LENR field.
This would stall LENR for many decades, securing the development plans of the huge oil deposits found in gravel as well as the likewise controversial plans of boring for oil beneath the arctic sea.
The other way to stall him would be by using the media engine discriminatively, which would be an easy thing since media is mainly owned by the same guys who have invested in the oil business. Maybe they will start with the media campaign in discrediting him by a set of nicely staged situations that will force AR to postpone his E-Cat entering market. Any greater delays beyond 2013 definitely will get all sceptics going and the media will do the rest. Thereafter destroy his facilities and production lines through a series of unfortunate events making his explanations about being framed stand out in media as the futile words of a scammer trying to cling to his deceptive schemes.
Let's hope he is better prepared than those other guys like Victor Schauberger and Royal Raymond Rife who also where about to change our world if it weren't for their sorrowful naivety and belief in the good of man.
Otherwise this story will come to an extremely sad end.
Gwandau
@Gwandau:
I think that Andrea Rossi is already prepared for such things and might even have a risk management team already in place. A recent comment he has released concerning this kind of scenerio addresses this issue:
Andrea Rossi
July 26th, 2012 at 9:01 AM Dear g.Luca from Italy:
I am not at all worried about external reactions. I receive daily blackmails, insults, subtle proposal of collaboration aimed to hit us from snakes disguised as enthusiast friends….( we have very good intelligence): just tennis balls against a tank. We are marching, the market, supreme judge of any product, will confirm if our work is useful or not.Warm Regards,
A.R.
Regards,
Chess
Quote from: chessnyt on July 28, 2012, 10:35:11 PM
@Gwandau:
I think that Andrea Rossi is already prepared for such things and might even have a risk management team already in place. A recent comment he has released concerning this kind of scenerio addresses this issue:
Andrea Rossi
July 26th, 2012 at 9:01 AM
Dear g.Luca from Italy:
I am not at all worried about external reactions. I receive daily blackmails, insults, subtle proposal of collaboration aimed to hit us from snakes disguised as enthusiast friends….( we have very good intelligence): just tennis balls against a tank. We are marching, the market, supreme judge of any product, will confirm if our work is useful or not.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
Regards,
Chess
Chess,
Thanks for the concern and the posted AR comment. My reaction is probably due to the frystrating situation of being a passive bystander without any means to help. It's like when you are merely a passenger in the car and not sitting behind the steering wheel yourself, tending to make everything along the road seem more threatening.
Guess I have to force myself to relax and start relying on the competence of the security organization behind it all. Maybe he has made a deal with the big unit customer (US Navy?) to watch his back in return for giving them priority in the E-Cat development.
Still, if AR is walking his talk, this has become so big that the 1000 degree news does not any longer fit into the narrow span of the present media coverage, which creates a horrifying window of plausible actions against him, making him a prime target for dire interventions.
Not until the moment he enters the market he will be home, then nobody can stop him.
Gwandau
QuoteNot until the moment he enters the market he will be home, then nobody can stop him.
But according to the title of this thread, in all CAPS yet.... he reached the market in October 2011 already.
Or perhaps it was another different October that the original poster meant. Must have been, because I certainly can't buy any free energy devices at my market.
I still want to see 20 kW coming out of a package the size of a box of cream cheese sitting on a tabletop. I don't even care if it emits gammas or not, just show me the sausages.
I know how he could instantly guarantee his safety, and that the world will benefit from any breakthrough he has made. Go open source. Release detailed specific information widely on the Internet. Then there would be no point in harming him, it would only make him a martyr.
I mean, put yourself in Rossi's place. You know that through genius or chance you have discovered THE ANSWER. Your discovery will usher in an era of peace and prosperity, for with cheap abundant energy all things become possible. You also are aware what happens time and time again in these situations. Shit Happens. People die or are silenced, and the tech disappears or is unreplicable.
So you (Rossi) weight all these factors (world peace, staying alive, winning the Nobel Peace prize, etc) against making a buck. We all know your decision.
Now, don't get me wrong, I DO believe that inventors should be rewarded for their work. It's a personal choice based on personal values. My personal values place world peace and the veneration of my peers over the cash. I would want to guarantee the information would survive no matter what.
Also, based in Rossi's personality evidenced so far, do you really think he has told ANYONE the SECRET? I don't even know how he is supposedly getting UL approval without full disclosure.
As an aside, I would go ahead and eat my mouse wheel, as promised, if we were shown anything from UL that proved they were reviewing a device for him.
Quote from: Mark_Eric on July 30, 2012, 12:28:17 PM
I know how he could instantly guarantee his safety, and that the world will benefit from any breakthrough he has made. Go open source. Release detailed specific information widely on the Internet. Then there would be no point in harming him, it would only make him a martyr.
I mean, put yourself in Rossi's place. You know that through genius or chance you have discovered THE ANSWER. Your discovery will usher in an era of peace and prosperity, for with cheap abundant energy all things become possible. You also are aware what happens time and time again in these situations. Shit Happens. People die or are silenced, and the tech disappears or is unreplicable.
So you (Rossi) weight all these factors (world peace, staying alive, winning the Nobel Peace prize, etc) against making a buck. We all know your decision.
Now, don't get me wrong, I DO believe that inventors should be rewarded for their work. It's a personal choice based on personal values. My personal values place world peace and the veneration of my peers over the cash. I would want to guarantee the information would survive no matter what.
Also, based in Rossi's personality evidenced so far, do you really think he has told ANYONE the SECRET? I don't even know how he is supposedly getting UL approval without full disclosure.
As an aside, I would go ahead and eat my mouse wheel, as promised, if we were shown anything from UL that proved they were reviewing a device for him.
It's a water heater. Why wouldn't he obtain UL approval for a water heater? I mean underwriter's laboratory is the end all be all authority on what is safe and what is not, right? I mean look at the people who own underwriter's laboratories. These are fine upstanding citizens of the world with no vested interest at all in public safety. Look at their customer base again fine upstanding citizens of the world trying to determine how much they should boost their premiums upon installation of this or any device in one of it's insured's assets. How much can we milk the homeowner for insurance premiums they are mandated to pay in order to reside in the bank's asset. Yet mind you in other nations of the world which could give a flying fuck about insurance fraud and bank fraud because they haven't sold out yet would glady apply a sticker on the ECAT that certified that it is safe. Lets give credit to Rossi where credit is due.
Quote from: Mark_Eric on July 30, 2012, 12:28:17 PM
I know how he could instantly guarantee his safety, and that the world will benefit from any breakthrough he has made. Go open source. Release detailed specific information widely on the Internet. Then there would be no point in harming him, it would only make him a martyr.
I mean, put yourself in Rossi's place. You know that through genius or chance you have discovered THE ANSWER. Your discovery will usher in an era of peace and prosperity, for with cheap abundant energy all things become possible. You also are aware what happens time and time again in these situations. Shit Happens. People die or are silenced, and the tech disappears or is unreplicable.
So you (Rossi) weight all these factors (world peace, staying alive, winning the Nobel Peace prize, etc) against making a buck. We all know your decision.
Now, don't get me wrong, I DO believe that inventors should be rewarded for their work. It's a personal choice based on personal values. My personal values place world peace and the veneration of my peers over the cash. I would want to guarantee the information would survive no matter what.
Also, based in Rossi's personality evidenced so far, do you really think he has told ANYONE the SECRET? I don't even know how he is supposedly getting UL approval without full disclosure.
As an aside, I would go ahead and eat my mouse wheel, as promised, if we were shown anything from UL that proved they were reviewing a device for him.
Mark
Rossi`s secret I posted at 1570, I don`t thing anyone picked up on it.Am not going to post it again.
Dave 8)
I picked up on it. Unfortunately you misidentified the effect that Rossi depends on.
Rather than the Nernst Ettinghausen Effect, Rossi relies on the Barnum Effect for his successes.
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 30, 2012, 01:58:55 PM
I picked up on it. Unfortunately you misidentified the effect that Rossi depends on.
Rather than the Nernst Ettinghausen Effect, Rossi relies on the Barnum Effect for his successes.
Ha Ha ,I don`t know why I post your pathetic,get a life. 8)
Quote from: firlight on July 30, 2012, 02:24:01 PM
Ha Ha ,I don`t know why I post your pathetic,get a life. 8)
Care to refute me, with facts and references?
Rossi relies on the gullibility of people to accept vague and unproven statements that align with their hopes and preconceptions. I can demonstrate this with reference after reference, of his claims made and not supported by data, of his false statements, of his bad experiments and his prior history of fraud, money laundering and smuggling. Can you demonstrate, with facts and references, that Rossi is using the Nernst Ettinghausen effect in the way that you claim, or are you just parroting words that you cannot understand or support?
Since you don't even seem to know the difference between "your" and "you're"...... I suspect the latter. But please.... feel free to prove me wrong, with facts and checkable outside references that support your claim.
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 30, 2012, 06:46:29 PM
Care to refute me, with facts and references?
that's not how it works... ::) you made the claim it was the barnum effect, it is up to you to prove it.
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 30, 2012, 06:46:29 PM
Since you don't even seem to know the difference between "your" and "you're"...... I suspect the latter. But please.... feel free to prove me wrong, with facts and checkable outside references that support your claim.
ahhh the usual logical fallacy. you never disappoint on that front... how exactly is his spelling relevant to the salient point(s) of his post(s)?
Quote from: firlight on July 17, 2012, 07:16:02 AM
Nice one Chess I like it.Good presentation.
Have you see today`s E Cat news ? http://www.e-catworld.com/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/)
They seem to be getting there a Non-uniform effect.I will say this.The Rossi secret catalyst is no more or no less than the Nernst Ettinghausen Effect.
Regards Dave 8)
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 30, 2012, 06:46:29 PM
Care to refute me, with facts and references?
Rossi relies on the gullibility of people to accept vague and unproven statements that align with their hopes and preconceptions. I can demonstrate this with reference after reference, of his claims made and not supported by data, of his false statements, of his bad experiments and his prior history of fraud, money laundering and smuggling. Can you demonstrate, with facts and references, that Rossi is using the Nernst Ettinghausen effect in the way that you claim, or are you just parroting words that you cannot understand or support?
Since you don't even seem to know the difference between "your" and "you're"...... I suspect the latter. But please.... feel free to prove me wrong, with facts and checkable outside references that support your claim.
You sussed out my dyslexia,Bravo for you.I can see right through you,it seems you appear to be
quite translucent,are you a Breatharian? That is the reason why I am not going to explain to you
what is happening in the reactor.I am sure you have at least one working brain cell,you work it out.
I have presented you with the clue.It will give you something positive to do. 8)
Quote from: firlight on July 31, 2012, 08:08:47 AM
You sussed out my dyslexia,Bravo for you.I can see right through you,it seems you appear to be
quite translucent,are you a Breatharian? That is the reason why I am not going to explain to you
what is happening in the reactor.I am sure you have at least one working brain cell,you work it out.
I have presented you with the clue.It will give you something positive to do. 8)
If you cannot refute me with facts and references, just admit it.
If you CAN refute me with facts and references, there are a LOT of people here who would like to see you do that. But you'd rather insult me. This generally means that you have NO OTHER ARGUMENT, as the master logician WilbyInebriated.... who apparently missed your unsupported claim and chose to attack my SUPPORTED claim instead...... can tell you.
You cannot support your claim with facts and data, just as Rossi cannot support his.
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 31, 2012, 02:42:32 PM
If you cannot refute me with facts and references, just admit it.
If you CAN refute me with facts and references, there are a LOT of people here who would like to see you do that. But you'd rather insult me. This generally means that you have NO OTHER ARGUMENT, as the master logician WilbyInebriated.... who apparently missed your unsupported claim and chose to attack my SUPPORTED claim instead...... can tell you.
You cannot support your claim with facts and data, just as Rossi cannot support his.
i didn't miss it... *rolls eyes* i just let it slide because he isn't continually running off at the mouth about what an expert he is and how stupid everyone else is. it is your big mouth and ego that gets your logical fallacies called out by me. but you know this... i've told you this before.
once again, he doesn't have to refute you... you claimed it was the 'barnum effect'. ::) furthermore, your 'claim' ::) is nothing more than your opinion... tu stultus es!
Quote from: sparks on July 30, 2012, 01:32:24 PM
It's a water heater. Why wouldn't he obtain UL approval for a water heater? I mean underwriter's laboratory is the end all be all authority on what is safe and what is not, right? I mean look at the people who own underwriter's laboratories. These are fine upstanding citizens of the world with no vested interest at all in public safety. Look at their customer base again fine upstanding citizens of the world trying to determine how much they should boost their premiums upon installation of this or any device in one of it's insured's assets. How much can we milk the homeowner for insurance premiums they are mandated to pay in order to reside in the bank's asset. Yet mind you in other nations of the world which could give a flying fuck about insurance fraud and bank fraud because they haven't sold out yet would glady apply a sticker on the ECAT that certified that it is safe. Lets give credit to Rossi where credit is due.
I'm suggesting that he wont get UL approval because in order to get approval, you have to apply. In order to apply, you would have to "tell all", otherwise how could they test for safety?
Also, didn't I read that Rossi is claiming that UL is probably going to insist on them having licensed support people to come out and change the catalyst? First off, I've never heard of UL doing this sort of thing. If they did say this, then that would definitely imply that they at least think there is something too dangerous for the consumer to mess with about the device. Are we next going to hear that Rossi is offering a training and licensing to support, for the low price of...
I'm most disappointed that no one felt like defending Rossi against my accusation of his having sociopathic tendencies (the crux of my argument).
I'd still love to see anything showing that Rossi is actually having something tested at UL. I'm fully aware that he could be a sociopath AND have made a new energy breakthrough. In which case he isn't a con, or crazy, just venal.
Where is everybody ? :o :-\
Quote from: nfeijo on August 17, 2012, 07:58:46 AM
Where is everybody ? :o :-\
@nfeijo:
All the trolls are here, so for those who love harassment and perpetual tag team trolling, this thread is the correct version.
For those who want to read the news updates concerning this technology without the insults and slander, the following link allows you to read the easy-to-follow version where you don't have to wade through all the paid disinformation rhetoric:
http://www.energy-shiftingparadigms.com/index.php/topic,4.msg3090/topicseen.html#new (http://www.energy-shiftingparadigms.com/index.php/topic,4.msg3090/topicseen.html#new)
Something for everyone,
Chess
Thank you, Chess, for the answer. I feel this as a kind of defeat, I liked more when you and others argued and defended the ideas that represent the new against the old. Many people come here to read what is happening in the field and also the discussion of the details. I will move to the new place.
"all the paid disinformation rhetoric"
You are funny.
The most disinformation that I have EVER encountered is right there on that website you linked. I recommend anybody with a hint of understanding of electronics, or personal dignity, to read the threads there and make your own conclusions.
And if you think that I, in particular, am in any way "paid" or "well compensated" as your chief liar claims, you too belong in a zoo.
How many different schematics have been presented for the major set of experiments reported on that website? Which one was _actually used_ for the experiments reported there? Why do the versions of the documents posted there not agree with their "official" publications on Rossi's JNP? And finally... how do YOU explain that Paper 2, Figure 2 scopeshot?
Even saying what you just said, about the "paid disinformation rhetoric" is itself a lie, disinformation completely. Or do you have some proof of your "paid disinformation" assertion? Of course you don't.
Quote from: TinselKoala on August 17, 2012, 11:13:52 PM
Even saying what you just said, about the "paid disinformation rhetoric" is itself a lie, disinformation completely. Or do you have some proof of your "paid disinformation" assertion? Of course you don't.
just because he may not have 'proof' doesn't mean it's a lie... ::) idiot.
@Everyone:
An exciting update on Rossi's E-Cat technology comes in the form of a much more compact overall size. The new "Hot Cat" breakthrough has also led to the reduced size of the 1MW industrial unit, which used to be the size of a shipping container. It has now been reduced down to the size of a medium sized barrel!
Here's an excerpt from the article:
Joseph Fine
August 28th, 2012 at 8:17 PM
Andrea Rossi,
For the listed Hot-Cat (“Cattus calidiâ€) dimensions, with an outer diameter of 90 mm and length of 330 mm, I calculated a volume of 0.0021 cubic meters. With a 10 kW power output, that means power per unit volume is 4763.33 kW / cubic meter.
Of course, other equipment is also needed. But even allowing for a factor of at least 20 brings this down to 238 kW/ cu. meter. “Cattus calidi, indeedi.†(Hot cat, indeed.)
Joseph
Dear Dr Joseph Fine:
You are perfectly right: in fact we are designing the new 1 MW plants, for hot temperature, and the dimensions will be those of a cylinder with a diameter of 1.2 m and a lencth od 0.4 m.
Is shocking, I myself are surprised, but it is so.
Warmest Regards,
A.R.
So the implications are simply astounding! This translates into the smallest 1MW generator that I am aware of. This reduces the size of generating plants so that they are capable of additional energy production capacity without the need to purchase additional realestate. This means that even conventional electrical power generating stations will now become smaller in size or utilize less physical square footage in order to produce equal or above current energy levels.
This is very exciting news!
Here's a link to the full article:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/shocking-design-of-1-mw-plants-1-2-x-0-4-m/ (http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/shocking-design-of-1-mw-plants-1-2-x-0-4-m/)
Enjoy,
Chess
If you would like a high quality fuel-less generator send email to air2gas@yahoo.com
I have been designing and building 1-KW self running fuel-less generators since 1981
they will run for years with little to no maintenance, life of the SR-1000 is 20 years
can be ran at 3000 rpm's non-stop 24/7
This is not for plans it is for a well constructed machine built with only high quality parts
they do not produce any fumes and are very quit
The SR-1000 is only $950.00 (Note it would cost you close or more to buy the parts)
plus shipping, will ship worldwide
I build from the SR-1KW up to 10KW models just let me know the model your interested in and i will send you a quote
Thanks
Don ( Green )
I'm interested in a unit. Would like some info. Thanks<<<Wes>>>
The SR-1000 is only $950.00 (Note it would cost you close or more to buy the parts)
plus shipping, will ship worldwide
I build from the SR-1KW up to 10KW models just let me know the model your interested in and i will send you a quote
Thanks
Don ( Green )
[/quote]
EMAIL ME AT AIR2GAS@YAHOO.COM
zool, wesw281,
or whatever you will call yourself next time, who on earth do you think you are fooling?
LOL
Gwandau
ps. I have reported you to the moderator
I want the same model that he's using to run his house on.
But before I write a check.... can we see a photo of that model, and some proof that he's off the grid and using only his own fuelless generator for his family's electrical power?
zool is my user name on ou
don keith is my first and middle names
green is a nick name i've had for 30 years
So that's a "NO", then.
Hello everybody
This weekend Andrea Rossi was in Zürich, giving the latest results of the hot cat.
I think he is an honest man. He presents a little bit chaotic like some engineer, sure not a showman.
Allan Sterling reports about the e-cat conference, interviewing Adrea Rossi, thanks, please help yourself:
http://pesn.com/2012/09/09/9602178_Rossi_Reports_Third-Party_Test_Results_from_Hot_Cat/
Regards
cubalibre
took some pictures of a SR-1000 i am building for a guy in Canada
it is working but not 100% complete
one of the parts i ordered was bad and had to be returned
just waiting on it to get here to finish and then i will post a video
with it bolted down in the housing
if you want to order one email me at air2gas@yahoo.com
the $950.00 introductory price is at my cost to build
Note: i have never offered these to the public before and i
have not made a dime building them
there is a lot of labor involved in building this generator
i had to buy a 3 ' piece of d-stock to build this one
so i have enough left to build a few more at this price
just that part was $300.00
and had to be made in a machine shop
labor was 2- hours at $85.00 an hour
i will have to adjust the price when its gone
Quote from: ARYANS POWER on September 16, 2012, 06:42:53 PM
Please stop doing people all that mess in heads with "Free Energy".
Not only Rossi as well others have any hints about:
http://overunity.com/12714/how-overlight-speeding-effect-works-for-us-against-speeding-on-roads/ (http://overunity.com/12714/how-overlight-speeding-effect-works-for-us-against-speeding-on-roads/)
The only free energy would be soon available to americans first.
In F.E.M.A. camps, short of: Free Energy Meat Allowed.
Germans and dumb polish catholics it will be not that easy yet.
F.....k off you sick moron!
There is a reason that all your threads on Energeticforum are marked "thumb down" and "warning".
Go somewhere else with your sick nazi attitude.
Why they did released you from asylum?
Pix
Quote from: zool on October 08, 2012, 06:10:07 PM
took some pictures of a SR-1000 i am building for a guy in Canada
it is working but not 100% complete
...
What exactly does your SR-1000 do?
it's like any portable generator only fuel less and fume less
ideal size for campers, running portable TVs, radios, small stoves, grills and other small appliances
runs on 12 v dc current from a 12 v deep cycle battery or a battery bank and is self charging
done by controlled pulse motor speed and precise controlled charging
will not over charge
output is 800 watts -1000 watts surge with overload protection
ac volts 120 @ 60 hertz
ac current 7.5 amps
it can also be solely used to charge a battery bank for wind or solar
when none is available
Eliminating the need for wind or solar
Quote from: zool on October 09, 2012, 11:26:02 AM
it's like any portable generator only fuel less and fume less
...
runs on 12 v dc current from a 12 v deep cycle battery or a battery bank and is self charging
done by controlled pulse motor speed and precise controlled charging
...
I don't want to derail this thread, and sorry if I am misunderstanding, but are you saying that
your generator is able to keep its 12 VDC battery charged while at the same time being able
to produce its rated output power indefinitely? In other words is it an over unity device, or
is it just very high efficiency? If high efficiency, is it more efficient than currently available DC to AC
inverters on the market?
Regards
inverters do not recharge a battery bank
this in its self makes it more efficient
you would have to figure how many watts
it takes to run what is hooked up to the ac output
then figure how many volts dc to sustain your battery bank
with a 7.5 amp controlled charge
factor in heat and friction loss to determine the size battery bank you will need
look into wind and solar equations batteries are rated by amp hours
you could use golf cart,fork lift any number of batteries
wind solar and gas sometimes are not available
i build these at cost as a hobby and for education
not for profit
Quote from: zool on October 09, 2012, 02:48:28 PM
inverters do not recharge a battery bank
this in its self makes it more efficient
...
True, you should not be able to fully charge a bank of discharged batteries
from a single battery, so if your generator can really do this while
powered from a single 12 VDC battery, this would seem to indicate over unity.
Since you said the generator charges its own battery while running,
can the generator run indefinitely (barring part failure) while providing power to a load, or does its
12 VDC battery eventually run down? If the battery runs down, how long before the battery runs down
under full 800 Watt load?
By the way, how noisy is this beast when it is running?
Regards...
Well it is October now. How close are we to see this device shipping/reaching the market? Anyone have new estimates?
half way into 2013!! pity no one took me up on my bet! I would be RICH!!!
It was all sounding good, but the more time went by without any solid evidence..............Same old story............the worst thing about this thread is the stupid poll at the top of the page.......talk about blind faith
sadly the latest tests fall well short of any one being satisfied, another waste of effort.
Quote from: zool on October 08, 2012, 06:10:07 PM
took some pictures of a SR-1000 i am building for a guy in Canada
it is working but not 100% complete
one of the parts i ordered was bad and had to be returned
just waiting on it to get here to finish and then i will post a video
with it bolted down in the housing
if you want to order one email me at air2gas@yahoo.com
the $950.00 introductory price is at my cost to build
Note: i have never offered these to the public before and i
have not made a dime building them
there is a lot of labor involved in building this generator
i had to buy a 3 ' piece of d-stock to build this one
so i have enough left to build a few more at this price
just that part was $300.00
and had to be made in a machine shop
labor was 2- hours at $85.00 an hour
i will have to adjust the price when its gone
Ha! Cracks me up. Do you think you have enough hardware there?
Study Steven and you will be able to use some short pieces of wire and frequencies and do the same thing.
Earth's magnetic field = unlimited power. ;)
Bruce:
There is no extractable power from the Earth's magnetic field. It's a near-absolute-DC constant and unchanging field. We know that you have to have magnetic fields changing with respect to time to extract power from them.
I know that the magnitude of this myth is beyond little old me, and it will be repeated over and over on the forums. Likewise, nobody will ever be able to demonstrate any meaningful generation of energy from the Earth's magnetic field.
Doesn't the contradiction between what you state and actual reality ever start to bug you and make you want to reconsider stating it?
MileHigh
Quote from: MileHigh on November 18, 2013, 09:34:28 PM
Bruce:
There is no extractable power from the Earth's magnetic field. It's a near-absolute-DC constant and unchanging field. We know that you have to have magnetic fields changing with respect to time to extract power from them.
I know that the magnitude of this myth is beyond little old me, and it will be repeated over and over on the forums. Likewise, nobody will ever be able to demonstrate any meaningful generation of energy from the Earth's magnetic field.
Doesn't the contradiction between what you state and actual reality ever start to bug you and make you want to reconsider stating it?
MileHigh
Ha! Not a myth, a reality! And the kicker is, how simple it is.
The "kicks" are there all of the time on the wires. It would be hilarious if not so sad. :o
Nope, no more theory, but FACT.
What "kicks" on the wires are you talking about?
If it's not theory any more then where is the FACT?
That's always the problem. It's very easy to disappear for a month and then come back and repeat the same old stories. FACT means that you can demonstrate something and show something tangible and show measurements. Can you do that?
One thing that is not confidence building is the cat-and-mouse word game when it comes to this stuff and no tangible results. I submit to you that you cannot extract any energy from the Earth's unchanging magnetic field. On the other hand, our entire society is dependent on the electrical grid. The electrical grid runs off of brute force mechanical power and changing magnetic fields - nothing could be realer.
So without a cat-and-mouse word game, what do you have to back up your claim that you can extract power from the Earth's unchanging magnetic field?
I have not followed the topic, but i can tell its irrelevant since its past Octomber.. going to December and nowhere a hint of a OU device in the market, neither will be for the forseeable future.
Piece of advice, pile the firewood high..
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 18, 2013, 08:05:32 PM
Ha! Cracks me up. Do you think you have enough hardware there?
Study Steven and you will be able to use some short pieces of wire and frequencies and do the same thing.
Earth's magnetic field = unlimited power. ;)
Hmm. Using the Earths field. Does it have anything to do with the earths spin, bout 1000 mph at the surface?
So lets say we have a length of wire and measured it while putting the wire in many different orientations, would there be a particular position that the wire produces some current?
I can imagine that the Earth rotating, that the field might act as if the earth is not rotating, like the magnets in the Nmachine. ??? ;)
Mags
Tesla believed he can tap cosmic rays. Nowadays we know cosmic particles are frozen inside Earth magnetic field lines. Again, Tesla was a visionary ?