Ok here is my idea for a Flynn Parallel Path Motor:
http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea.avi (http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea.avi)
Any Ideas on how to improve on this?
I'm sure you all know how the Flynn demo device works. I have tested the Flynn device and it does work as specified. The wheels are non magneticly attractive (wood). The metal pieces on the wheels however are magneticly attractive. As soon as a metal piece gets to the point of pull back on one wheel the polarity on the Flynn device is reversed and the metal piece on the other wheel is pulled in. Then the process is repeated.
Adding more devices to the system (as in the animation) should do what? I'm asking because I don't know.
Drak
Drak,
I really like the concept. Excellent animation. I think it would be a good concept to build on.
Adding more devices produces more torque, and potentially smoother torque. Llike an 8 cylinder motor vs a 1 cylinder. You have more points in the rotation where you are adding torque to the output shaft, which gives smoother power.
From a mechanical standpoint your concept would have to be altered to make it strong enough to hold up to the forces. Your rotors as shown would just bend together and stick to the stator if the stator were spaced in close proximity. Conceptually I like the idea. I would consider it a worthy candidate to develop into a prototypeable design.
I think it is one of the more exciting concepts I have seen.
If you want help, let me know.
Hi Drak,
Very good arrangement of making Parallel Path principle work as a motor and I also agree with Jake on the mechanical needs (though in the animation they do not matter of course).
Some thoughts on the practical side:
1) I would not use the metal pieces but (rectangular) ferrite pieces instead, to avoid eddy currents in the metal pieces. The ferrite pieces could be obtained from burnt-out line output transformers used in televisions or CRT PC monitors and maybe freely given away in repair services/shops. Or in the lack of ferrites, normal mains transformer laminations could be used. These could also be embedded/glued into the rotor body.
2) To sense the moment when a polarity change is needed, a Hall sensor could be used that would be triggered by a small permanent magnet glued to the rotor at an appropiate place.
3) The polarity change could be done with the known H bridge, using either bipolar or MOSFET power transistors.
Of course many other practical issues can crop up and many solutions exist for them, the above three suggestions are the ones that suddenly occured to me as maybe important ones for a start.
rgds
Gyula
Jake,
QuoteI really like the concept. Excellent animation. I think it would be a good concept to build on.
Thank you! :)
QuoteAdding more devices produces more torque, and potentially smoother torque. Llike an 8 cylinder motor vs a 1 cylinder. You have more points in the rotation where you are adding torque to the output shaft, which gives smoother power.
(in theory) Do you think it would increase effeciency? Flynn PP is supposed to be 400% (I only see it at %200...anyhow). So adding another device make it 800% then another at 1200% ect.. Or would it just stabalize the %400? With one device I have 2 extra power from the P-Magnets. With another device I have 4 P-Magnets powering the device, then 8, then 16 etc..
QuoteFrom a mechanical standpoint your concept would have to be altered to make it strong enough to hold up to the forces. Your rotors as shown would just bend together and stick to the stator if the stator were spaced in close proximity.
Yes you are correct I have dealt with that problem before. I can't seem to find a metal stabalizer piece that I can bolt the wood wheel to (not sure what its called but I can see it clearly in my head). The only wooden way I can think of to fix this would be to use wooden pillers say 4 or 8 of them going from the inside of one wheel to the other "ECK!". Or a 2X4 and bolt each wheel to it and drill a hole in the center, lol.
gyulasun,
QuoteVery good arrangement of making Parallel Path principle work as a motor and I also agree with Jake on the mechanical needs (though in the animation they do not matter of course).
Thank you :)
See jakes reply above.
Quote1) I would not use the metal pieces but (rectangular) ferrite pieces instead, to avoid eddy currents in the metal pieces. The ferrite pieces could be obtained from burnt-out line output transformers used in televisions or CRT PC monitors and maybe freely given away in repair services/shops. Or in the lack of ferrites, normal mains transformer laminations could be used. These could also be embedded/glued into the rotor body.
Hmm, ferrite pieces? Can these things be ordered at a specific size? Do they have more, less, or the same attractive power as soft iron laminents? Laminents were my first choice because they are easy to work with. Is eddy currents the only advantage of ferrites? I never thought of ferrites.
Quote2) To sense the moment when a polarity change is needed, a Hall sensor could be used that would be triggered by a small permanent magnet glued to the rotor at an appropiate place.
Thought of using a reed switch, but wouldn't you need a magnet that is exactly the right sizie in order kick it on and off at the right time? I was thinking more along the lines of a light senser. Use another wheel with notches cut out in the right spots to allow the light to pass throught at the right time, kinda like the old mouse wheels used to work. Is a hall sensor the same as a reed switch? Anyhow a hall sensor or a light sensor would be better to reduce drag of a physical one.
Quote3) The polarity change could be done with the known H bridge, using either bipolar or MOSFET power transistors.
Ok now you are getting into the stuff I really need help on. I was just going to use a solid state relay because I don't know anything about MOSFET things. Well, at least wiring them up for a polarity change. I will google that and see if I can find a schematic of how to use that..Thanks :)
Drak
You will ever stay (C8-ceramic magnets related) in the
400% range !
But you can also change the output-power through
3x/4x...wheels use !
S
dL
lancaIV
QuoteYou will ever stay (C8-ceramic magnets related) in the
400% range !
But you can also change the output-power through
3x/4x...wheels use !
You mean use bigger wheels? or more wheels?
Drak
A physically "provocating"question:
probably you will get with bigger wheels an extra-lever effect,
but my statement has been related to "more wheels use" !
S
dL
Quotebut my statement has been related to "more wheels use" !
Ah, ok. What if I had two devices running independently. At (in theory) 400% each, would that be a total of 800%? If so then what is the difference of making two devices vs putting more Flynn devices on the same device. My head is spinning, lol
Drak
pure maths:
wheel-concept 1 input 1 unit,100% = output 400%,4 units
wheel-concept 2 input 1 unit,100% = output 400%,4 units
resume:2 units in-,8 units output
The use of more wheels will only get a higher power-density,
but the relation 100% in:400 % out will stay !
S
dL
Quote from: Drak on June 19, 2006, 07:06:03 PM
Thought of using a reed switch, but wouldn't you need a magnet that is exactly the right sizie in order kick it on and off at the right time? I was thinking more along the lines of a light senser. Use another wheel with notches cut out in the right spots to allow the light to pass throught at the right time, kinda like the old mouse wheels used to work. Is a hall sensor the same as a reed switch? Anyhow a hall sensor or a light sensor would be better to reduce drag of a physical one.
Nice motor design drak!, I wouldn't use a reed switch, as the timing of reed switching is... problematic, at best. Reed switches are better for detecting the absense of a magnetic field than the presense of one, there are normally open, or normally closed ones. The normally open ones are the ones they use for alarm systems, to detect when a door or window has been opened. Those types of applications are what they are best at.
Hall effect sensors are powered sensors, however they are far more reliable at proximity switching than reed switches are. I don't know much about mosfets myself, and would probably just use a relay for polarity switching.
The MOST critical part of the construction of this device, will be permanent magnet positioning, and switching. All of your output power hinges on those two factors. Other factors would include permanent magnet size.
If you design your rotor with specific large magnets in mind, you can cut holes for them in the rotor so that one pole faces inside and the other faces outside, you can use the inside pole for motive force and the outside pole for inductance in coils, turning it into a motor/generator.
For pure motor function you could just remove the coil assembly and allow the shaft to do work.
Drak,
Your idea is being discussed favorably on the peswiki flynn pp yahoo discussion group.
Jake
QuoteRe: QuickField flux software
Hi Gyula,
that design looks very promising.
I'd like soon or later to try to experiment with some engine; I've
build some engine for my RC airplanes, they are from scratch and
made w/o late. Their efficiencies are around 70-75% at about 200W
but we know that even in the best winding scheme there always is
some windings in the stator working against the others, especially
in delta connections. The counter torque from back EMF is used by
the sensorless controller to understand the position of the rotor
relative to the stator. I remember some discussion on this issues in
forums dedicated to home made engines for RC models.
The longer I think about that the more I'm tempted to start building
something around Drak's idea.
Is someone already building something like that?
Meanwhile, I'm using Femm to simulate the idea described in the
Asaoka's patent and surprisingly it seems that the variation of the
flux in the central core (but w/o gaps) is doubled by the magnets
presence; I mean it is not only shifted, the delta amplitude of
flux,calculated for +i and -i in the coils, is doubled. This should
be easy to experiment using the same material of the PP device.
I'll post some results as soon as possible.
Ciao,
Guido
Only "doubled" ?
Snif,I am very sad !
V. Cassar:closed-magnet-cycle-amplifyer,Factor 15X
Kroll:(EM+PM)XHZ
Galey:75gr Neo/ 2KW
Kunel:2 KW/Factor 10X
I think it will be of interest to contact Mr.Hatakeyama,
the patent attourney of Asaoka Keiichiro !
S
dL
p.s.:I did not exspect that my introduce of Mr.Keiichiros work would
get such an "net-audience"!
I forgot to ask, what did you do your model in?
Beautiful animation.
Unfortunately the idea has some flaws.
Notice how each side of the FPP has two 'fingers'.
While one side of the FPP is energized it will have one N finger and one S finger.
The way you have the FPP's arranged the metal pieces in the rotor will only be attracted to the first finger they encounter.
The easiest solution would be to rotate your FPP's by 90 degrees so that the metal pieces are attracted to both fingers at the same time.
Another way would be to arrange the 'fingers' so that they stratal the rotor.
That way you would reduce or eliminate the warpage of the rotor because each side of the metal piece would be pulled in opposite directions.
Try this cheap experiment.
Take two magnets and two thin pieces of metal, I used razor blades.
Lay one blade on a table.
Now take the two magnets and stick them to the other blade about 1/2 inch apart with one facing down and the other facing up.
Now slowly move the magnets toward the blade on the table.
Do it from several angles to get an idea of which orientation will give you the strongest pull.
Hi Drak,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote1) I would not use the metal pieces but (rectangular) ferrite pieces instead, to avoid eddy currents in the metal pieces. The ferrite pieces could be obtained from burnt-out line output transformers used in televisions or CRT PC monitors and maybe freely given away in repair services/shops. Or in the lack of ferrites, normal mains transformer laminations could be used. These could also be embedded/glued into the rotor body.
Hmm, ferrite pieces? Can these things be ordered at a specific size? Do they have more, less, or the same attractive power as soft iron laminents? Laminents were my first choice because they are easy to work with. Is eddy currents the only advantage of ferrites? I never thought of ferrites.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, my only reason of mentioning Ferrites is to get rid of eddy currents. You can use laminates with equal success, in this application I do not think Ferrites have any advantage. See some info on amidon ferrite plates (in fact they call it Antenna Plates, AP) at the bottom of this link:
http://www.amidoncorp.com/aai_ferriterods.htm (Material #33 is ok for your motor.)
But if you already have got laminates in your junk box or you have easy (and cheap) access to them, of course you are encouraged to use laminates! Laminates are indeed easy to work with (ferrites are rigid and break easily.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote2) To sense the moment when a polarity change is needed, a Hall sensor could be used that would be triggered by a small permanent magnet glued to the rotor at an appropiate place.
Thought of using a reed switch, but wouldn't you need a magnet that is exactly the right sizie in order kick it on and off at the right time? I was thinking more along the lines of a light senser. Use another wheel with notches cut out in the right spots to allow the light to pass throught at the right time, kinda like the old mouse wheels used to work. Is a hall sensor the same as a reed switch? Anyhow a hall sensor or a light sensor would be better to reduce drag of a physical one.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course you can use light sensors instead of Hall devices if you are more familiar with them, no problem. See gnOstik comments on this too. Reed switches are bulky and not as sensitive as Hall devices. Many manufacturers produce Hall devices, see this first link coming up in goggle.com:
http://www.anachip.com.tw/eng/product/sensor/index.php
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote3) The polarity change could be done with the known H bridge, using either bipolar or MOSFET power transistors.
Ok now you are getting into the stuff I really need help on. I was just going to use a solid state relay because I don't know anything about MOSFET things. Well, at least wiring them up for a polarity change. I will google that and see if I can find a schematic of how to use that..Thanks :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See for instance this basic link on a H bridge but you can find many other circuits:
http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/Robotics/tutorial/h-bridge/bjt-circuit.html
If you have already got some solid state relays i think you can also use them.
I fully agree with longwolf: your metal pieces should be rotated 90 degrees to position and embed them radially in the rotor and the PP legs are also to be rotated 90 degree accordingly, so that the two poles at the end of the legs should attract the metal (rather laminate) plates at the same time.
Drak, it was me who mentioned your video link at a Yahoo mail group I am also a member where Joe Flynn's parallel path topics are also discussed, the membership in that group is only 66 at the moment, here the membership is 2729 at the moment. Maybe i should have asked for your permission for posting it first, sorry for this, I was with good intents and was inspired to communicate. This is what I wrote to Guido:
" Let me show you a very interesting animation on a PP motor I have seen today at Stefan Hartmann's www.overunity.com Forum from a member there, Drak:
http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea.avi and you can read his thoughts on it here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1172.msg9062/topicseen.html#msg9062 "
The only answer to this has come from Guido what Jake published here already. No other discussion yet.
The link to this Yahoo group is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pes_flynn_pp/
Thanks and good luck in tinkering!
Gyula
Quote from: lancaIV on June 19, 2006, 09:30:42 PM
Only "doubled" ?
Snif,I am very sad !
V. Cassar:closed-magnet-cycle-amplifyer,Factor 15X
Kroll:(EM+PM)XHZ
Galey:75gr Neo/ 2KW
Kunel:2 KW/Factor 10X
I think it will be of interest to contact Mr.Hatakeyama,
the patent attourney of Asaoka Keiichiro !
S
dL
p.s.:I did not exspect that my introduce of Mr.Keiichiros work would
get such an "net-audience"!
Hi Lanca,
I have been aware of Asaoka's patent for about 2 years now, I did not get it from your communication here. I did not mention this patent to Guido or at other forums simple because it was not a topic at all between me and Guido, so your frustration on mentioning Asaoka' work is not justified and there is no any "net-audince" on his work! Guido mentioned Asaoka's work probably because he is ALSO aware of his patent, and i do not think any need for turning to Asaoka's patent attorney either! Anybody can tinker with any patent as long as he or she does not market/sell the product.
From Guido letter what Jake kindly republished here from the Yahoo group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pes_flynn_pp/ it may turn out that he is not aware of Cassar, Kroll, Galey or Kunel patents and his playing in FEMM with noticing the flux doubling should not make you sad!
Guido will certainly improve on it because he is also a practical fellow.
I hope these 'explanations' are ok with you, in fact I felt obliged to shed some lights on misunderstood things here.
Muito obrigado!
Gyula
gn0stik,
QuoteNice motor design drak!
Thank you! :)
QuoteI wouldn't use a reed switch, as the timing of reed switching is... problematic, at best. Reed switches are better for detecting the absense of a magnetic field than the presense of one, there are normally open, or normally closed ones. The normally open ones are the ones they use for alarm systems, to detect when a door or window has been opened. Those types of applications are what they are best at.
Noted. I will stick with light sensers. Thanks
QuoteHall effect sensors are powered sensors, however they are far more reliable at proximity switching than reed switches are. I don't know much about mosfets myself, and would probably just use a relay for polarity switching.
I was going to use a relay because that was the only thing I knew how to hook up. I wonder if it would be able to keep up with the speed. Will probably try the mosfet thing out.
QuoteThe MOST critical part of the construction of this device, will be permanent magnet positioning, and switching. All of your output power hinges on those two factors. Other factors would include permanent magnet size.
If you design your rotor with specific large magnets in mind, you can cut holes for them in the rotor so that one pole faces inside and the other faces outside, you can use the inside pole for motive force and the outside pole for inductance in coils, turning it into a motor/generator.
Im not sure what you mean here. There won't be any magnents on the rotor because that would cause a pull back once the Flynn device has switched polarities and sent the magnetic flux to the other wheel. Thereby letting the piece of metal on the side of the Flynn device with no magnetic flux just coast on by. If there was a magnent there it would not be able to coast on by.
QuoteFor pure motor function you could just remove the coil assembly and allow the shaft to do work.
Again, I'm not sure I'm following you here.
QuoteI forgot to ask, what did you do your model in?
A friend let me use their 3d Studio Max.
jake,
QuoteYour idea is being discussed favorably on the peswiki flynn pp yahoo discussion group.
Thats pretty awesome. I hope alot of people see it. Because if someone builds it before me and it works then I will skip the wood process and go straight to aluminum.
longwolf,
QuoteBeautiful animation.
Thank you! :)
QuoteThe way you have the FPP's arranged the metal pieces in the rotor will only be attracted to the first finger they encounter.
The easiest solution would be to rotate your FPP's by 90 degrees so that the metal pieces are attracted to both fingers at the same time.
I thought of that but can't remember the reason I flipped them back. I think it was because of the speed of switching the Flynn device back and forth, could it handle it? That and that makes for alot more metal pieces. Would the metal pieces being closer together be effected by the Flynn device? The more I think about it after you said that, it would be better for them to be that way. I will redo the animation tonight and flip them by 90. Thank you.
QuoteAnother way would be to arrange the 'fingers' so that they stratal the rotor.
That way you would reduce or eliminate the warpage of the rotor because each side of the metal piece would be pulled in opposite directions.
In order to stratal the rotor I would need the two wheels laying flat and tie them together with a chain. I didn't think of strataling the rotor, but my original idea was to use the chain. Then somebody said the chain would cause more friction. I think it was jake. Without two wheels, when reversing the polarity on the Flynn device to let the metal coast by it would waste half the energy if the other side of the Flynn device wasn't being utilized.
gyulasun,
QuoteBut if you already have got laminates in your junk box or you have easy (and cheap) access to them, of course you are encouraged to use laminates! Laminates are indeed easy to work with (ferrites are rigid and break easily.)
Cool, I will use laminents then.
QuoteSee for instance this basic link on a H bridge but you can find many other circuits:
http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/Robotics/tutorial/h-bridge/bjt-circuit.html
If you have already got some solid state relays i think you can also use them.
Cool, Thank you very much for the info. I think that is exactly what I want to use.
QuoteI fully agree with longwolf: your metal pieces should be rotated 90 degrees to position and embed them radially in the rotor and the PP legs are also to be rotated 90 degree accordingly, so that the two poles at the end of the legs should attract the metal (rather laminate) plates at the same time.
See above. Thanks.
QuoteDrak, it was me who mentioned your video link at a Yahoo mail group I am also a member where Joe Flynn's parallel path topics are also discussed, the membership in that group is only 66 at the moment, here the membership is 2729 at the moment. Maybe i should have asked for your permission for posting it first, sorry for this, I was with good intents and was inspired to communicate.
No, No problem at all. The more people that can improve on it the better. If you have read any of my previous posts you will know that I don't care. The animation is hosted on my website and I think I get 10gig bandwidth a month so it's no big deal. If that gets used up (which I doubt), then I will just buy more.
Quote from Drak,
"There won't be any magnents on the rotor because that would cause a pull back once the Flynn device has switched polarities and sent the magnetic flux to the other wheel. Thereby letting the piece of metal on the side of the Flynn device with no magnetic flux just coast on by. If there was a magnent there it would not be able to coast on by."
Not only that, but the Flynn device would no longer be able to switch the flux if external magnets were used. Magnets upset the balance within the Flynn device, causing the flux to flow when you don't want it to, and where you don't want it to.
JackH's valve device is a better choice of device to use for your motor, (if what I am thinking of, is his device). It may be less work to wait for JackH's valve to be available for a better performing motor and less power usage.
Drak you have made a very nice annimation of the motor. Looks very nice.
Quote from: Drak on June 20, 2006, 12:07:02 PM
Im not sure what you mean here. There won't be any magnents on the rotor because that would cause a pull back once the Flynn device has switched polarities and sent the magnetic flux to the other wheel. Thereby letting the piece of metal on the side of the Flynn device with no magnetic flux just coast on by. If there was a magnent there it would not be able to coast on by.
The pull back wouldn't be as large a problem as you think, as the flux on the other side, once switched would be 4x as great as the pull on the side with the pullback.. Of course if you used steel there, the pull would be less, but not completely negated. And if those are steel plates they will become magnetized over time anyway, under such an intense field, and you will be fighting the same problem, however less intense it might be if you were using magnets..
My bad, however, I assumed those were magnets on the rotor, I misinterpreted "magnetically attractive", as meaning magnets instead of simply ferrous. The design is clear to me now. Those are the armatures on the rotor.
Regards.
Liberty
QuoteJackH's valve device is a better choice of device to use for your motor, (if what I am thinking of, is his device). It may be less work to wait for JackH's valve to be available for a better performing motor and less power usage.
No offence to JackH or you. I hope Jack gets his valves out there and gets patents on them. That would be great! I just don't feel I want to wait around untill it is available. I might be waiting around till I'm 70 myself. Not because of Jack, but because of the system. Flynn has patents, but I can't go to the store yet and buy one of his motors.
QuoteDrak you have made a very nice annimation of the motor. Looks very nice.
Thank you kindly, I should have another one up tonight or tommorow.
gn0stik,
QuoteMy bad, however, I assumed those were magnets on the rotor, I misinterpreted "magnetically attractive", as meaning magnets instead of simply ferrous. The design is clear to me now. Those are the armatures on the rotor.
Not a problem. I tried to make them look like steel but I'm not to good with this modeler.
Drak
Quote from Drak:
"No offence to JackH or you. I hope Jack gets his valves out there and gets patents on them. That would be great! I just don't feel I want to wait around untill it is available. I might be waiting around till I'm 70 myself. Not because of Jack, but because of the system. Flynn has patents, but I can't go to the store yet and buy one of his motors."
I understand what you mean. I would tell you the device that I am thinking of, but I am concerned that it may be the same as JackH's valve device and I don't want to reveal it out of common respect for the inventor just in case. Wish you the best on your motor.
Liberty
Hello and ola gyula,
Asaokas attourney will only be the "gate" to Asaoka himself,
and it is clear that we can work in HU or POR and other countries
except US,DE,JP privately or in commercial manner with his
invention objects !
But we would have to invest more "time" into the trial/error !!!
When he,Asaoka, wrote that his device can be realized with
"low cost" conditions,why should we not ask him what he
understands as "low cost" ?
What he exspects as honoration for an eventual team-work.
His -only JP- publication of an AC-amplifier is from my view
the "nonplusultra",the concept is easier than
Menzer(commutation difficulty !) !!!
Sincerely
de Lanca
Ok, I have the other animation done with the device and pieces of metal turned 90 degrees. I don't like the way it looks. I believe the 90 degrees is alot better but I think the metal pieces need to be tapazoid in shape. Will do another animation with the trapazoid shape and upload them both at the same time.
Drak
Ok, here is the animation with the trapazoid shapes. Hope the link works. http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea3.avi (http://www.darktruths.com/flynnidea3.avi)
Thoughts?
Drak
Lookin Good!
Check here if you'd like an idea of how a U shaped device would look.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Flynn_Parallel_Path_OEM_motor
The last 2 images on the page only show one arm of each FPP.
The second arm would be placed above the disk made for holding the attractive metal pieces.
Mike seems to have stopped trying to make this motor.
It seems that cutting the laminates wrecked the annealing.
But it's possible to buy pre made U or C shaped laminates.
I also think that your trapezoid metal pieces may work better than his disks.
longwolf,
QuoteCheck here if you'd like an idea of how a U shaped device would look.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Flynn_Parallel_Path_OEM_motor
The last 2 images on the page only show one arm of each FPP.
The second arm would be placed above the disk made for holding the attractive metal pieces.
I seen that earlier today, I'm trying to figure out where the magnents go. Isn't the whole purpose of the FPP is to stear magnents? Looks like he has a pretty interesting design.
QuoteIt seems that cutting the laminates wrecked the annealing.
It did? I wonder how, because laminates would need to be cut on this motor too. Hmmm....
Drak
With the short U's that Mike used, the magnets would go on the 'corners' of the U's one each side of the coil.
Then the second stack of laminates is placed on top of those magnets, sandwiching the rotor.
I believe you could use the ready made U's without cutting them.
Just find some that are close enough to the right size already.
The ready-made laminates have mounting wholes in those corners
But longer arms would allow you to move the magnets closer to the ends of the arms and off of the mounting holes.
Here are links to a few sites that sell laminates:
http://members.aol.com/indintl/puistlmeta.htm
http://www.tempel.com/products/tld/UI/UI5075.html
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/motor-laminations-43021005-1.htmlhttp://www.th\omasnet.com/products/motor-laminations-43021005-1.html
I don't think Mike was happy with the results of that motor.
I think the peswiki group is working on another design that they expect to work better.
(bottom line - I wouldn't copy the design without talking to Mike about it. I think he would steer you away from it.)
QuoteMike seems to have stopped trying to make this motor.
It seems that cutting the laminates wrecked the annealing.
I think waterjet cutting would be a good way to cut lams if you have access to it. You need to back up the steel with something like plastic because it is so thin the waterjet will try to curl the edges. You can of course stack numerous layers on a waterjet if you can hold them together.
Laser cutting supposedly works well too, but I would worry more about the heat of laser cutting affecting the lams. I don't think it has the curling problem.
Hello jake,
Cutting laminents will only effect the annealing of the lam very close to the cut. In most casses this will not hurt them.
Later,,,,JackH
QuoteCutting laminents will only effect the annealing of the lam very close to the cut.
By laser cutting, or no matter how you cut them?
JackH,
QuoteCutting laminents will only effect the annealing of the lam very close to the cut. In most casses this will not hurt them.
Are you serious? Cool, because that was worrying me. So then I should be able to cut them with tin snips in this motor design and it not affect the output? I'm only using them for magnetic attractiveness, not for an electromagnet. You seem to have alot of experience with this thats why I'm asking. I read somewhere that sticking them in a cooking oven on broil for 4 hours would also aneal them, do you think that would work?
Drak
From what I've read about the annealing, there's more to it than that.
Lowering the temp has to be done very carefully and over several hours.
Also the annealing chambers are filled with inert gasses to prevent oxidizing the plates.
Oxidizing could also be a problem if you use one of the water jet cutters.
Isn't rust a good electrical insulator to prevent eddy currents?
It could even be helpfull I think when the plates have an even layer of rust on them.
Just a thought :)
When you want to heat iron for a few hours and then slowly get them to cool down, take a charcoal BBQ put the iron plates in the middle of the charcoal and then light it.
Take them out the next day and you have a great end product!
Hello Drak,
When I cut my laminets and then put them togather, I sandwitch them between two aluminum plates with bolts. After that I then machine them to the shape that I want. I have tested them before and after the machining process, very small, if any problem with them. One thing you may also want to consider is placing a piece of paper between each and every plate. This will make sure that they are insulated from each other. I always do that. Takes some time, but it pay's off. It is very importent that electrical current cannot travel between laminates. Also if you use bolts to hold them togather, make sure that they are insulated from the laminets too.
Don't try your oven on the laminets. You will end up with junk. The annealing process is very complicated.
Later,,,,JackH
Quote from: lancaIV on June 20, 2006, 08:45:00 PM
Hello and ola gyula,
Asaokas attourney will only be the "gate" to Asaoka himself,
and it is clear that we can work in HU or POR and other countries
except US,DE,JP privately or in commercial manner with his
invention objects !
But we would have to invest more "time" into the trial/error !!!
When he,Asaoka, wrote that his device can be realized with
"low cost" conditions,why should we not ask him what he
understands as "low cost" ?
What he exspects as honoration for an eventual team-work.
His -only JP- publication of an AC-amplifier is from my view
the "nonplusultra",the concept is easier than
Menzer(commutation difficulty !) !!!
Sincerely
de Lanca
Ol? Lanca,
Could you refer to where Asaoka wrote his device's low
cost realization? In one of his patents?
He has got at least 7 JP, 3 US, 3 EP, 1 CN and 1 DE
patents I am aware of.
And Which JP patent do you refer to as an AC
amplifier?
A letter costs nothing to write it is sure, why have
not you written to the attorney as yet? Or you have
already written to him, what is his address, (maybe
e-mail)?
I have too many questions, don't I? :o)
Obrigado!
Gyula
PS1: I do not want to market/manufacture any device,
I wish to build overunity device for myself to prove it
is possible, then maybe run it in my own home to ease
the rates, right?
PS2: I wrote the above letter to you on 21 July as a
personal message inside overunity.com but probably you
did not notice it (I do not know how it signals to the
addressee he got a personal message.)
Hello gyula,
I do not controle the message board,please you for pardon !
To the questions:
US5926083:page 2,line 36-38"This dynamo can also be downsized
and made available at low prices."
"low prices" versus "low cost",do you differ ?
JP2003009558:method and apparature for power generation
from the explaination: AC-power in and
amplified AC-power out
=AC-amplifier
After a call with his german attourney association
Dreiss,Fuhlendorf,Steimle&Becker I received some weeks later
a FAX from Mr.Takashi Hatakeyama(Sept.20,2005),
the japanese patent attourney of Mr.Asaoka Keiichiro.
Since this time I did not react,
because our local,often confuse,"individuals-team-work" !
Mr.Keiichiro offers important solutions,
from all static dynamo inventors
(except Patrick,Bearden&al.;Pasichiniskyj,"the real MEG-inventor")
we know that -he- is alive
and both sides should respect the relation-ship-value and
potentials !
Sincerely
de Lanca
p.s.:Mr.Bruce Perrault can probably tell us more about Mr.Pasichiniskyj ("alias-..." ?) and his work !
JackH,
QuoteWhen I cut my laminets and then put them togather, I sandwitch them between two aluminum plates with bolts. After that I then machine them to the shape that I want. I have tested them before and after the machining process, very small, if any problem with them.
Cool, that saves me some time. Thanks :)
QuoteOne thing you may also want to consider is placing a piece of paper between each and every plate. This will make sure that they are insulated from each other. I always do that. Takes some time, but it pay's off. It is very importent that electrical current cannot travel between laminates. Also if you use bolts to hold them togather, make sure that they are insulated from the laminets too.
I assume you mean during operation of the laminates, not machining. What will adding the paper do? Reduce back emf, or make it use less power as an electro magnent, or both? That is very helpfull, I would never have thought of that. Could I use paint instead?
QuoteDon't try your oven on the laminets. You will end up with junk. The annealing process is very complicated.
Noted, Thanks for the reply. Sets my mind at ease. Will try the paper thing tonight.
Again Thanks :)
Drak
Hello Drak,
I talked to a rep at GE one time about puting the paper between laminets, also about painting them. He advised me to go the paper rought, some paints are anti-magnetic and could cause a problem.
The paper between plates will almost cause histeress to be totally eliminated. The permanent magnets will have less resistence in the laminets and work much better.
Later,,,,,JackH
Quote from: lancaIV on June 20, 2006, 08:45:00 PM
... is clear that we can work in HU or POR and other countries
except US,DE,JP privately or in commercial manner with his
invention objects !
...
FYI, at one point US 5,926,083 was in an expired state, so pursuit in US may also be possible. (I think it has remained thus, but have not checked recently. ?Why was it allowed to expire?)
http://www.uspto.gov/go/og/2003/week37/patexpi.htm
under this circumstances,
yes(!),
it is since 2003 also "open source" for the U.S.A.-area.
Many thanks for the notice !!!
It is expired because he did not pay more the "fee",
why ?-this I do not know.
I will also look after the actual german state !
So the german patent result:week 50/2003,not payment of the fee !
S
dL
Ok, my attempt at this failed, mainly because of sturdiness. It did collapse in on itself mainly when energized. Will post pictures for reference anyhow. I also think i might have gotten the metal plates spaced too close together, but oh well. Maybe I will work on it more if I ever get a real shop. :)
more pictures
and more
and last
Drak nice work ;D
You already control electronics?
leo48
QuoteYou already control electronics?
What do you mean? I guess I'm ok with electronics definitely not a pro.
I have also tried using it as solid state, I bought a function generator and ran that device through tons of different frequencies, square, sine, pulse, different duty cycles, etc.. no interesting results, except the back emf was throwing the voltage up to about 250 volts or so and it would shock the crap out of me at .05 watts input power. I've been thinking of the muller motor. I know how to program micro controllers and could interface it with a computer to see what is going on. But no clue where to get all the parts and would have to research it more.
EXTREMELY Precision & Professional work Drak.
Thank you for sharing.
.
QuoteDrak nice work ;D
QuoteEXTREMELY Precision & Professional work Drak.
Thank you :)
I 3 years ago I built a small motor to parallel path
Images:
http://img806.imageshack.us/i/motoreapp.jpg/ (http://img806.imageshack.us/i/motoreapp.jpg/)
and this is a schema an elettronic control
http://img839.imageshack.us/i/schemaleomotornu1.jpg/ (http://img839.imageshack.us/i/schemaleomotornu1.jpg/)
Leo48
Ah, very nice. What kind of results did you get?
My engine a PP has 6 poles and rotate at 1200 rpm
with supply 9V and 1.2 amperes, has a small torque
this engine not achieved overunity
leo48