Pumping water using capillary and centrifugal forces
Quote from: vineet_kiran on February 23, 2012, 05:19:27 AM
Pumping water using capillary and centrifugal forces
The capillary effect is also present at the outlets, resisting the water from flowing out of the outlets. The rotation will help, but Coriolis effect will also resist rotation. How much is depending on the mass flow.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on February 23, 2012, 08:06:50 AM
The capillary effect is also present at the outlets, resisting the water from flowing out of the outlets. The rotation will help, but Coriolis effect will also resist rotation. How much is depending on the mass flow.
Vidar
@Vidar, Capillary force is a very weak force and centrifugal force is strong force hence water will be ejected out of capillary tube at lower speeds. The effect of coriolis force at lower speeds is negligible.If you want to verify this experiment, just soak a sponge in water, fix it to some shaft or stick at center and rotate the sponge. You can see water ejecting out of sponge at lower speeds. Effect of coriolis force at that speed is negligible. Vineet.K.
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Quote from: vineet_kiran on February 29, 2012, 01:25:18 AM
@Vidar,
Capillary force is a very weak force and centrifugal force is strong force hence water will be ejected out of capillary tube at lower speeds. The effect of coriolis force at lower speeds is negligible.
If you want to verify this experiment, just soak a sponge in water, fix it to some shaft or stick at center and rotate the sponge. You can see water ejecting out of sponge at lower speeds. Effect of coriolis force at that speed is negligible.
Vineet.K.
The same can be said about the capillary effect. It is negligble in both ends. So there is no point in using the capillary effect to anything useful. And you do not gain anything by putting the system into rotation.
The capillary effect will help fluids to enter the tube with a given force. The same force is preventing the fluids to exit. The rotation will make this device into a solely centrifugal pump. These pumps can move fluid with energy input. The energy is used to pump fluids upwards. If the pump is able to move a significant amount of fluid, the Coriolis effect will be as much significant.
No gain. Sorry.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on February 29, 2012, 06:03:53 AM
The same can be said about the capillary effect. It is negligble in both ends. So there is no point in using the capillary effect to anything useful. And you do not gain anything by putting the system into rotation.
The capillary effect will help fluids to enter the tube with a given force. The same force is preventing the fluids to exit. The rotation will make this device into a solely centrifugal pump. These pumps can move fluid with energy input. The energy is used to pump fluids upwards. If the pump is able to move a significant amount of fluid, the Coriolis effect will be as much significant.
No gain. Sorry.
Mr.Vidar,
It is surprising that you are unable to differentiate between a centrifugal pump and pump which I have drawn.
The energy equation of centrifugal pump is as follows :
Total head = Suction head + delivery head + loss of head due friction, bends etc.
In the pump what I have drawn :
Suction head = 0 Because water is lifted by capillary force
Delivery head = 0 Because water is ejected at same height of capillary lift and no additional head is added.
Loss of head due to friction is negligible considering the length of tube.
Once the inertia of tubes is overcome, the energy required to keep it rotating is negligible, that’s what the energy motor consumes.
Even this system can be made ‘gainful’ if you apply your thought.
Quote from: vineet_kiran on March 01, 2012, 10:39:18 AM
Mr.Vidar,
It is surprising that you are unable to differentiate between a centrifugal pump and pump which I have drawn.
The energy equation of centrifugal pump is as follows :
Total head = Suction head + delivery head + loss of head due friction, bends etc.
In the pump what I have drawn :
Suction head = 0 Because water is lifted by capillary force
Delivery head = 0 Because water is ejected at same height of capillary lift and no additional head is added.
Loss of head due to friction is negligible considering the length of tube.
Once the inertia of tubes is overcome, the energy required to keep it rotating is negligible, that’s what the energy motor consumes.
Even this system can be made ‘gainful’ if you apply your thought.
I understand the concept, but I think you have overlooked something important.
Let me comment: The capillary effect will rise the fluids to the same level as the centrifuge. No problem this far. Let us say that the capillary effect rise 1kg water, 1 meter up. That will result in a 2 meter capillary tube with a cross section of 0.5cm^2 to raise the mass 1m in average. That would be 1J of "free" energy. The capillary tube will also, with the same effect, prevent the fluids from escaping the tube 2 meters up. You need at least 1J of input energy in order to reach the point where fluids starts to flow. Then you have gained nothing.
Next is to let the fluid flow. Then you have to add even more energy in order to start the mass flow. The Coriolis effect can be partially countered by tangential nozzles that points in opposite direction of rotation.
An imaginary experiment:
If the capillary tube is able to lift fluids 2 meters up. What happens if you cut the tube in half? Will the fluid start to poor out on the top and fall back into the tank? The answer is probably no.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on March 02, 2012, 05:30:05 AM
I understand the concept, but I think you have overlooked something important.
Let me comment: The capillary effect will rise the fluids to the same level as the centrifuge. No problem this far. Let us say that the capillary effect rise 1kg water, 1 meter up. That will result in a 2 meter capillary tube with a cross section of 0.5cm^2 to raise the mass 1m in average. That would be 1J of "free" energy. The capillary tube will also, with the same effect, prevent the fluids from escaping the tube 2 meters up. You need at least 1J of input energy in order to reach the point where fluids starts to flow. Then you have gained nothing.
Next is to let the fluid flow. Then you have to add even more energy in order to start the mass flow. The Coriolis effect can be partially countered by tangential nozzles that points in opposite direction of rotation.
An imaginary experiment:
If the capillary tube is able to lift fluids 2 meters up. What happens if you cut the tube in half? Will the fluid start to poor out on the top and fall back into the tank? The answer is probably no.
Vidar
@Vidar,
If capillary tube rises water to a height of 1 meter, it has to be ejected at 1 meter height only. ( I did not understand what is 2 meters height)
I think you are simply getting confused with force and energy. Water is lifted up by natural capillary force and not energy. Same force prevents water from falling down hence no energy transaction is involved. The potential energy of water raised in capillary tube is zero. Hence you need just another force (not energy) to pull this water out. Centrifugal force is a imaginary or pseudo force which depends mainly on radius of rotation and not on input energy to the motor and also many times stronger than the capillary force. Hence centrifugal force ejects the water out. In the total process there will not be any energy transaction. Only when the water is ejected out of the tube, it (water) gains potential energy with respect to earth (ground)
The equation is as simple as this : Water is lifted by a weak force (not energy), ejected out by another strong force (not energy) and gains potential energy with respect to a third force (gravity) after ejection.
Force alone is not energy but difference of force (potential difference) is equivalent to energy.
Vineet.K.
P.S. : I have got one doubt : How does a tree lift water to a height more than 100 meters?
I think you have a special idea. Try it out in practice, and see if theory corresponds with reality.
A tree is a living organism. Energy from the sun, surrounding moist, living cells, and extremely narrow capillary tubes are involved in the process of lifting water 100 meters up.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on March 02, 2012, 01:08:27 PM
I think you have a special idea. Try it out in practice, and see if theory corresponds with reality.
A tree is a living organism. Energy from the sun, surrounding moist, living cells, and extremely narrow capillary tubes are involved in the process of lifting water 100 meters up.
Vidar
@Vidar, I have already tried that experiment . I did not get a 90 degree bent capillary tube hence I used a 90 degree bent plastic tube packed with cotton. Water did eject out of the tube but in less quantity because cotton absorbs water slowly in less quantities. That is the reason why I have mentioned that the experiment is not of any practical use.There are trees which grow up to 400mtrs height. So far no satisfactory explanation has been given as to how trees lift water to such a height. Solar energy, capillary forces cannot lift water to such a height. Vineet.K.
You are right...the tallest trees don't actually get their water from the roots and capillary system. They absorb it from the clouds that pass through their tall canopies. Just watched a tv program about these in the rain forests. They get their moisture from the air around the canopies...their may be some reverse capillary effect there though? Where the roots don't reach in the middle, the moisture from the leaves could travel "down" to? No idea if that's the actual case.
Quote from: konduct on March 05, 2012, 03:55:33 AM
No idea if that's the actual case.
@konduct
The following website has some information about it :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylem)
Vineet.K.
I just imagined Vineet digging up a tree from the ground, and put it on a turntable. That had been quite a sight :-))
Vidar
@Vidar,
That is really not a joke. Instead of turning a tree on a table, the capillary force pump (sketch which I have drawn) itself can be used to lift water to a considerable height by using several such capillary tube arrangements on a lengthy vertical shaft with collecting trays in between. This allows water to be lifted in several stages. Keeping several such arrangements on a single shaft will make the system heavy but once the inertia of the system is overcome, the energy required to keep the system rotating will be very less. Instead of evaporation process as used by tree you will be using centrifugal force to maintain the flow of water. The idea is very simple. Capillary forces neutralize gravity force making potential energy of water zero even at elevated heights (in stages) so that it can be easily ejected out using another force.
I personally feel that lifting of water by tall trees is a straight forward and natural case of over unity.
Vineet.K.
Quote from: vineet_kiran on March 05, 2012, 11:37:36 PM
@Vidar,
That is really not a joke. Instead of turning a tree on a table, the capillary force pump (sketch which I have drawn) itself can be used to lift water to a considerable height by using several such capillary tube arrangements on a lengthy vertical shaft with collecting trays in between. This allows water to be lifted in several stages. Keeping several such arrangements on a single shaft will make the system heavy but once the inertia of the system is overcome, the energy required to keep the system rotating will be very less. Instead of evaporation process as used by tree you will be using centrifugal force to maintain the flow of water. The idea is very simple. Capillary forces neutralize gravity force making potential energy of water zero even at elevated heights (in stages) so that it can be easily ejected out using another force.
I personally feel that lifting of water by tall trees is a straight forward and natural case of over unity.
Vineet.K.
First of all. I hope you let the trees grow without digging them up :-). The energy from the sun plays an important role of what a tree is capable of when it regards lifting water more than 9.82 meters above ground. The cells that is indirectly (and probably also directly) powered by the energy from the sun, will make it happen. I "assume" that there is no overunity involved in a living tree. However, I do not fully understands the mechanisms in a living tree, so I take my assumtions with a pinch of salt.
Vidar