Some of you will be glad to know that I have decided to put up or shut up. Please, this is really not a topic thread ...i just wanted a nice clean area to announce my results.
Does anyone possess or have access to any other copies of the MT drawings other than what is generally available or even including JC's digital version ? I already have the digital version of MT .
Ralph,
I have something to share . I have have sent you a message on Facebook . There are certain things lacking in the quality of the information we have been given by various sources. There is a way forward and I believe I have found it . I dare to say that Bessler's wheel can be rebuilt very close to the original design ...but there are some things that need to occur before that can happen . Awaiting your reply .
Chris W.
Quote from: christo4_99 on March 14, 2012, 04:27:21 PM
Does anyone possess or have access to any other copies of the MT drawings other than what is generally available or even including JC's digital version ? I already have the digital version of MT .
Have you built everything in the MT you have ?
Quote from: Ealadha on March 29, 2012, 03:15:09 PM
Have you built everything in the MT you have ?
Ealadha,
Welcome to the forum.
I think the ralph christo is talking about is rlortie. If so, they don't build. rlortie questioned in besslerwheel dot com why I try when it has been 300 years.
Jim
Quote from: johnny874 on March 29, 2012, 03:28:42 PM
Ealadha,
Welcome to the forum.
I think the ralph christo is talking about is rlortie. If so, they don't build. rlortie questioned in besslerwheel dot com why I try when it has been 300 years.
Jim
I am building mechanisms that are shown in MT , can i post pictures of them on this forum ? I cannot post them on besslerwheeldotcom because i was banned from that forum .
Quote from: Ealadha on March 29, 2012, 04:09:51 PM
I am building mechanisms that are shown in MT , can i post pictures of them on this forum ? I cannot post them on besslerwheeldotcom because i was banned from that forum .
Join the club :D I am well represented in their fraud section.
What I don't understand is how pathfinder gets along with them.
I'm not sure if there is a size requirement or not. I always put mine in jpeg which is a lot smaller byte size.
I use a paint program. Files from your camera can be quite large.
Jim
If you notice about them, in the past, more people posted there.
@Ealadha,
Here's a link to one wheel I built. It was a few years ago.
Oops, it's actually a link to some things I have thought of or
tried.
http://s979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/ (http://s979.photobucket.com/albums/ae278/bessler_supporter/)
Quote from: johnny874 on March 29, 2012, 07:48:51 PM
Join the club :D I am well represented in their fraud section.
What I don't understand is how pathfinder gets along with them.
I'm not sure if there is a size requirement or not. I always put mine in jpeg which is a lot smaller byte size.
I use a paint program. Files from your camera can be quite large.
Jim
If you notice about them, in the past, more people posted there.
I am happy to be banned from besslerwheeldotcom because some of the leading members have been advocating the use of occult practices to solve the bessler wheel and i don't want to have anything to do with that whatsoever .
I dare to say that some of these fellows , if the Bessler Wheel were to drop into their lap in pieces that they could not construct it with the proper principle intact .
Quote from: christo4_99 on March 30, 2012, 08:24:44 PM
I dare to say that some of these fellows , if the Bessler Wheel were to drop into their lap in pieces that they could not construct it with the proper principle intact .
I've long been an advocate of Bessler having known more than one way to do it.
One reason why is that his clues have always baffled everyone. And with what I'm working on, I'm going more with one principle than being overly concerned with his clues. There are different ways the same thing can be built. And in the end, they'll probably find there are different ways that a gravity wheel can work.
The TRUTH is baffling ... lies are believable . So then , we shall search the known literature and find the secrets to creating force ?
Quote from: christo4_99 on March 31, 2012, 11:10:36 AM
The TRUTH is baffling ... lies are believable . So then , we shall search the known literature and find the secrets to creating force ?
This would probably be something for you guys to discuss. I am working on
something and would probably be narrow minded as a result.
Jim
Chrsito,
One thing I found out in the other forum is that nobody likes listening to an explanation.
When I tried explaining it in the other forum, I got attacked by one person who claimed to be defending themself and then they started asking me questions. One question showed they lacked even a basic understanding of mechanical principles.
With 2 drawings, an understanding of the mechanics can be gained. and as the principle is better understood so do Bessler's clues become easier to understand.
When John Collins asked about the number 5, he stated his opinion. It seemed some people were confrontational over this when if people do not make their opinions known without fear of retribution, then Bessler's work might be better understood
With the number 5. some people took it to be a pentagram. This got me to do a web search of pentagram and free masons. Anyone can search this and read it for themselves. This could be one example of looking for symbolism. It seems with Bessler, if you look for it, you will find religion. This could be because Jesus said symbolism was for the devil.
To find an alternate meaning, only 5 planets are visible with the naked eye. And anyone looking at the planetarium of his time would have known what was missing. The apparent backwards motion of the planet Mars. From the Earth, there is a period of it's orbit where it seems to move backwards. This would be the only unique physical characteristic of the 5 planets if you were to watch them.
Then I guess you are asking yourself, what in a wheel could move forward and backwards and yet maintain the same movement ? There is an answer but it is not a simple one.
Jim
I am so sick of the guys involved in this ....40 years beating a dead horse ! I've decided to invent the thing , never give any recognition to the people who are already famous for failing to discover it and then move on . Seriously . This goes out to everyone involved : You know who you are ;)
I may have started out with this thing on the wrong foot . But sooner or later I got a real feel for it . I had some ideas , one of which seemed very promising but just as I was planning to start building it I found something in Bessler's material that I had never noticed . I had to give it a lot of weight because of where it came from . So basically what I'm saying is I abandoned my own ideas and concentrated on this one thing . Now , I've put a lot of thought into it and I possibly have a mental grasp of the principle that Bessler discovered , mind you , NOT based on my own ideas . So whoever is working on this puzzle ... I ask you : Are you overestimating yourself , your abilities and your ideas to the point that you don't see or understand what the father of all of this ( Bessler ) has said and tried to convey ? By all means leave religion ( the key ) at the door ... surely to dishonor the inventor ... surely so that the blind can lead the blind ... surely as a result we must all climb out of the pit , all who take the given advice of these fools . They chime in from time to time to remind themselves of how important they are supposed to be ... somewhere . They are not "on it " so to speak . I am "on it " . I will deliver .
Quote from: christo4_99 on April 04, 2012, 02:40:15 AM
I am so sick of the guys involved in this ....40 years beating a dead horse ! I've decided to invent the thing , never give any recognition to the people who are already famous for failing to discover it and then move on . Seriously . This goes out to everyone involved : You know who you are ;)
I may have started out with this thing on the wrong foot . But sooner or later I got a real feel for it . I had some ideas , one of which seemed very promising but just as I was planning to start building it I found something in Bessler's material that I had never noticed . I had to give it a lot of weight because of where it came from . So basically what I'm saying is I abandoned my own ideas and concentrated on this one thing . Now , I've put a lot of thought into it and I possibly have a mental grasp of the principle that Bessler discovered , mind you , NOT based on my own ideas . So whoever is working on this puzzle ... I ask you : Are you overestimating yourself , your abilities and your ideas to the point that you don't see or understand what the father of all of this ( Bessler ) has said and tried to convey ? By all means leave religion ( the key ) at the door ... surely to dishonor the inventor ... surely so that the blind can lead the blind ... surely as a result we must all climb out of the pit , all who take the given advice of these fools . They chime in from time to time to remind themselves of how important they are supposed to be ... somewhere . They are not "on it " so to speak . I am "on it " . I will deliver .
>> I ask you : Are you overestimating yourself , your abilities and your ideas to the point that you don't see or understand what the father of all of this ( Bessler ) has said and tried to convey ? <<
I think I got it just right :D
But like I told a friend of mine at work, if what I know proves to be true, I can't call my kids, my girlfriend or my wife and say I've done it. Nobody in my personal life that I could share such an accomplishment with. It'll be missing something that would really let me get something personal out of all the years of work I've put into it. So for me, it's a bit more for Bessler. As for what I want, a working wheel can't give me. Sorry if this brings you down but we all have different realities to deal with.
Jim
And in some ways things haven't changed.
It doesn't bring me down as I was not addressing you in what I wrote . I have more of a problem with all the people who have made this more about failing as a group and patting each other politely on the back all the while . All this talk amounts to nothing . You can pour your heart and soul into what you post here and we can't feel it . The days of me getting shaken up over someone's opinion are over . If there is a point to what I am saying then let it be this : there are no true authorities on the subject of P.M. other than the long gone Bessler . A lot of people have wheels but none that have caused a smidgen of the controversy that Bessler's wheel did . If someone can bring it back to the forefront of life to be battled over once more .... good for him , good for the world ... no matter who that might be .
Quote from: christo4_99 on April 04, 2012, 12:49:38 PM
It doesn't bring me down as I was not addressing you in what I wrote . I have more of a problem with all the people who have made this more about failing as a group and patting each other politely on the back all the while . All this talk amounts to nothing . You can pour your heart and soul into what you post here and we can't feel it . The days of me getting shaken up over someone's opinion are over . If there is a point to what I am saying then let it be this : there are no true authorities on the subject of P.M. other than the long gone Bessler . A lot of people have wheels but none that have caused a smidgen of the controversy that Bessler's wheel did . If someone can bring it back to the forefront of life to be battled over once more .... good for him , good for the world ... no matter who that might be .
Poor attitude to have. The only real way anyone would ever truly appreciate Bessler's wheel would be to build one.
You know, one thing I keep thinking of is Bessler might have became more famous for what he knew about engineering than his wheel. But in his time, a father and son got a good amount of money for realizing how to know one's latitude and longitude at sea. Something important for trade as enough of it was done by ship. Latitude was know because of the north star and the sextant. With latitutde, knowing the time was important because knowing where certain stars were allowed for understanding your position at night. Again, the sextant and the time and a map of the stars and bingo, you know where you are. Basically, navigation required a bit of astronomy.
With what Bessler knew, his knowledge's real value might have been what he could have contributed to the Industrial Revolution. I think this is something often over looked. In his time, if cotton was spun 10 threads at a time, it allowed the English to import cotton from India and export thread.
And if people in these forums knew how grain was made into flower, then they might understand some of his drawings better. He does show threshers which thresh wheat into flour. But what does it mean ? Hell, he even shows an Archimedes pump. Again, what does it mean ? Ever hear of pictographs ?
But I think he knew that even in making his clues obvious, they would still be missed. Of course, I am going through the expense to build. And this is for a reason. If you've ever liked solving puzzles, then this is a good one ;)
Jim
Once again I am not addressing you .
Quote from: christo4_99 on April 04, 2012, 06:48:29 PM
Once again I am not addressing you .
I know ;) Still, ever wonder why I got into building ?
Jim
edited to add; what is it you hope to accomplish ? Worrying about them won't do any good. One reason why they've taken the time to try and discredit me.
On the positive side of things, have thought of how to simplify everything I've been trying to do. This changes everything for me and takes all the stress out of it. Not sure how much I'll get done this weekend, will have to wait and see. It does help me to be a little more enthusiastic about this again.
This is one thing those people you're upset with probably won't let on about but building can be difficult at times and this might not let them be the respectable people they wish to be.
Point taken .
Christo,
These 2 drawings are the basic idea I am working from. I actually started with another drawing as the basis and the mechanics of another.
Then one day when I was looking through bessler's drawings, I realized these two worked together. It is the basic concept I believe Bessler used.
If you look at Mt 66, there is something sticking out the side of the wheel. What I believe it is is the drum lifting the threshers in this picture.
It's on the left and lifts the 4 posts. http://www.orffyre.com/Merseburg1.jpg (http://www.orffyre.com/Merseburg1.jpg)
And if you notice in the top right corner of the drawing, it is hoisting a box.
Myself, haven't read his books or the ones by John Collins. been broke but working on the happy part.
Jim
edited from my fone doimg Bessler in a way that I thought I would never do
Christo.
the last post should have made someone think of something.
It could be all the manufacturing experience I have that helps me to understand Besslers work.
I think the way he obscured it is ingenuous.
Jim
http://cwonjohannbessler.blogspot.com (http://cwonjohannbessler.blogspot.com/)
Quote from: christo4_99 on April 11, 2012, 02:49:11 PM
http://cwonjohannbessler.blogspot.com (http://cwonjohannbessler.blogspot.com/)
Christo,
When I first started posting in this forum, the consensus was that open sourcing information was preferred.
This would allow everyone to consider any claim based on their experience and any discussion concerning
any idea. Basically, a person had to be open to the scrutiny of others. And because of the people on youtube
and even in these forums that have made many claims made me glad I stayed open source.
I have mentioned many times before that when Bessler spoke of a desire to start a school was in itself a clue.
And what is this important clue ? It's a rather simple one. It means that a person must have a willingness to learn.
And by having this willingness, they would find he kept nothing secret but raises many interesting possibilities as
well as showing how his wheel(s) worked.
The definition on Wikipedia on perpetual motion makes this statement "
Despite the fact that successful isolated system perpetual motion devices are physically impossible in terms of our current understanding of the laws of physics, the pursuit of perpetual motion remains popular."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion)
What I like about this statement is that it specifically mentions "current understanding". This means for a way to be possible,
it would need to be a different understanding of what is accepted in science and engineering. To this end, the idea I have described is a different application of accepted principles in engineering.
What is missed by most is that a gravity wheel is not an isolated system. It would technically be consider a satelite of the Earth. And this means that it would be a co-dependent system. All this means is without the Earth's gravity it wouldn't work.
Jim
edited to add; One plus of working openly is being able to discuss things with other people. I think this is something Bessler would have liked as it would let people know about his his efforts in greater detail.
Quote from: johnny874 on April 11, 2012, 03:45:23 PM
And by having this willingness, they would find he kept nothing secret but raises many interesting possibilities as
well as showing how his wheel(s) worked.
There was some green varnished stretched linen that screams you are wrong about that assumption . I know what you are trying to say as I have said it myself ... that Bessler wasn't hiding anything . That just isn't true . He was protecting his own interests and he had a right to do that . Sure , he wanted to find someone a peer perhaps who understood his principle but he was not content to have it stolen from him . You cannot pigeonhole Bessler to fit in on this board . He was an inventor , a thinking man in the highest sense . He deserved to be paid for his achievement because it was one of a kind and might I add , still remains un-copied .
My design is complete . I will not be found bickering on this board with people who have not sunk their teeth so deeply into this subject as I have . It really brings me down and my confidence suffers for it . For anyone who ever wished me well I thank you .
Quote from: christo4_99 on April 26, 2012, 05:02:58 AM
My design is complete . I will not be found bickering on this board with people who have not sunk their teeth so deeply into this subject as I have . It really brings me down and my confidence suffers for it . For anyone who ever wished me well I thank you .
I wish you well .
Good luck .
Hi folks, Hi christo, you said, "He deserved to be paid for his achievement".
That is precisely the thinking that is part of the cause of these not being in common use already, live and learn as they say.
peace love light
tyson
Quote from: SkyWatcher123 on April 27, 2012, 01:54:54 AM
Hi folks, Hi christo, you said, "He deserved to be paid for his achievement".
That is precisely the thinking that is part of the cause of these not being in common use already, live and learn as they say.
peace love light
tyson
So true Tyson. But in Bessler's time, the greater value might have been something other than his wheel.
It is possible that h might have realized concepts used in mass production today. And his understanding of mechanics, if he had made it known, might have made him a goodly living. Even DaVinci was wanted for his inventive capacity.
It could be Bessler lost by thinking more of a financial reward than what might have been gained by his studies. Who knows, he might have had that school he desired.
Of course, he might not have realized how much he learned.
The truth is , like all art , like Bessler himself said , the reward of an unbidden accomplishment is claimed willy nilly . Nobody walked up to Bessler one day and said , " I will pay you $____ if you can devise a perpetual motion machine . " He took it upon himself . And since it was his special property he had a right to put a price on it . The truth is again that the world did not value it enough . Bessler put a lot of effort into marketing it . Lets not blame the inventor ... he's the one that did all the work . It would be nice if things of value always came into the hands of people who , being wealthy , have no need for monetary gain . Bessler was a successful " Perpetual Mobilist " in that he attained his goal , it's the rest of the world that did not hold up it's end of the bargain .
Hi folks, hi johnny, thanks for positive reply.
Hi christo,
My view is, is that if the intention of an inventor is to spread an invention and how it functions to all of humanity, then there will be no price tag of any kind applied.
It is what it is, a baby isn't going to eat, if the parents put a price tag on the baby food, babies are not enslaved yet at that age, so have no funny money.
And the above applies down the whole list of vested interest groups of humans.
Also, It is far more likely that the world or bessler is not to blame, though more likely vested interests of the few were the obstruction, even in his time period.
Most likely, these vested few already had advanced technological knowledge from previous advanced civilizations and possibly other sources and things like the bessler wheel did not fit into there future plans that we see in the world today.
I only mention my perspective when i see words like you posted, because i know it is not a lack of inventions and it is not the worlds fault or the inventors, it is this small group or groups that need to be dis-empowered to never again be able to have any influence over the lives of living beings.
peace love light
tyson
Quote from: christo4_99 on April 27, 2012, 12:00:31 PM
The truth is , like all art , like Bessler himself said , the reward of an unbidden accomplishment is claimed willy nilly . Nobody walked up to Bessler one day and said , " I will pay you $____ if you can devise a perpetual motion machine . " He took it upon himself . And since it was his special property he had a right to put a price on it . The truth is again that the world did not value it enough . Bessler put a lot of effort into marketing it . Lets not blame the inventor ... he's the one that did all the work . It would be nice if things of value always came into the hands of people who , being wealthy , have no need for monetary gain . Bessler was a successful " Perpetual Mobilist " in that he attained his goal , it's the rest of the world that did not hold up it's end of the bargain .
The cold hard reality is that being able to navigate the seas is worth considerably more. Trade is worth a lot of money.
As some say, he thought his invention was wroth as much as something proven to have value. After all, cartography is not a willy nilly subject where one demands good money for something that is not proven.
It does sound strange though to hear of a man who was owed much money for doing something when he had no agreement with anyone to pay him. And also he is supposed to be quite religious. A relgious man who is also greedy ? What does the bible say about such things ? I doubt it would support him. What was it Jesus (Cristo) said ? What does it benefit a man to gain the world only to lose his soul ?
Might not have been Jesus, but a quick seacr found this. Please tell me where it is wrong sir.
Matthew 16:26 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16:26&version=NKJV)
For what profit is it
to a man if he
gains
the whole
world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?
If Bessler was the guy who quoted the Bible over 100 times, I'm not to sure if it was him asking for the money. It might be that he might have felt greed would dimish his dicovery. But to someone else, such as another person, they might have thought that if they could get him to pursue a large amount of money, then they could ask for some for their part in it (seeing the monetary value of it). And I think that is closer to the reality of it. That people who have not taken the time and effort to do the work themselves do not value the work for the accomplishmnet it truly was and is.
Bessler was an inventor first and a teacher second . I can see that you have not learned anything from him . Greed implies an excessive love of money or love of excess money or money for the sake of money . It is not greed when a man does the impossible , wraps it all up in a neat tidy package and slaps a price tag on it . Rather , it's simply recompense . " Mean , nasty , greedy Bessler wouldn't tell us how his machine worked "... that's what you all sound like and it's silly because the only way to solve it is to do the brain work necessary , take it as a challenge and either fail ( like most ) or succeed like very , very few (one?)... but stop crying like bitches and judging people . It's basically just a difference of opinion in which I am using empathy for my compass and you all are using ideals . Ideally , yes , it would have been nice if Bessler had made us all privy to his invention but then we'd have nothing to argue about or look forward to . On the other hand in the real world hobbies , interests , obsessions if you will cost a lot of money and up until Bessler solved the problem he had wasted a lot of time and money on searching for it . Get real .
considering I am building and you are not, makes me wonder what you aqe on about.
Am going for my 5th surgery and found out tonight that my dad died last Nmvember. He is the idiot who this probably
meant the mnst to give me the life he never had
one he could enjoy.
hdd probably knew this was something I could do. so do me a favor, quit sounding like ab hammer.
show some work and discuss it.
I don't exactly need anyone's input on my design ... there is nothing to discuss .
Hi christo, all i am saying is that it is what it is, if one wants to label it judging or ideals, when all I am doing is making observations about the results of choices due to ways of thinking, in which case money itself is an ideal and obviously not very ideal if it impedes the free sharing of knowledge and inventions.
I never said bessler was greedy and i have no idea what he thought or believed, i only responded to your comment about getting paid for knowledge, instead of sharing it freely.
If people cannot yet see that sharing freely is the only way to true freedom, then much has yet to be learned.
Making all the excuses in the world for this behavior that humans and groups display, will not change that observation.
Empathy is not part of the process of observation, as it will skew ones perception of what is true about an observation.
Neutral observation is the key to seeing something from greater perspectives, thus allowing greater knowledge and compassion for any issue or situation.
Good luck and peace love light
tyson
There is another member responding in the thread . I hear ya . But I have taken this thing very seriously and it looks like it's about to bare fruit . I am beginning to think I could build a device superior maybe even to what Bessler did . I assume you have a job and this site and this type of thing is a hobby for you . It's not for me, so I am a little more motivated you see . I have been all through the ringer with this thing . Actually i could use some help with it as far as getting a prototype built but nobody out here in the real world has much interest . When I did reach out as a serious contender to someone , I felt like I was having obstacles placed in my path because of an " unorthodox " concept . A simpler maybe "classical " OB wheel this is not . I believe it's the real thing . So please forgive me for not plastering it all over the internet .
Quote from: christo4_99 on April 28, 2012, 12:59:39 AM
I don't exactly need anyone's input on my design ... there is nothing to discuss .
Yet you put a price tag on something when you are not the buyer. Interesting concept.
Expect to be paid what you think something is worth. The last time I checked there is no market for over unity devices.
Simple reality. And as to you having nothing to discuss, you sure post a lot for having nothing to say. :o
Quote from: johnny874 on April 28, 2012, 09:39:23 AM
The last time I checked there is no market for over unity devices.
I have bought over unity devices from people selling them .
I might buy one .
If it works .
If there is only one the seller sets the price . If he doesn't sell it , like Bessler , you'll have to do a hell of a lot of work to dig it up if you want it ( thanks to Bessler also ). I dug it up and now it's mine . :-X
I've been away from Overunity too long. :(