Perpetual roller making use of water upthrust and gravity
Hi vineet_kiran,
thanks for your posting.
Despite your description I have no idea how this works. Do you have a detailed description? How do you come up with this idea? Have you try to built this?
greetings
Quote from: AlanA on March 10, 2012, 12:40:36 PM
Hi vineet_kiran,
thanks for your posting.
Despite your description I have no idea how this works. Do you have a detailed description? How do you come up with this idea? Have you try to built this?
greetings
@AllanA
The experiment is based on a very simple principle. I have given complete details in the following attachment.
Regards,
Vineet.K.
Quote from: AlanA on March 10, 2012, 12:40:36 PM
...
Despite your description I have no idea how this works. ...
greetings
I agree. I can't figure out what is being described at all.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on March 11, 2012, 11:38:28 AM
I agree. I can't figure out what is being described at all.
I don't agree with you at all guys. The pictures are very good and explanation also. Brilliant idea, as always Vineet. However, to make it more useful I would prefer the the center axis mounting. I know, I know - the equilibrium - don't worry it can be omitted. I will post later some pictures. It just doesn't have to make a full revolution. Just make it pendulum like with latching mechanism.
Excellent Vineet.K ..
Do you have a video?
regards
Hi Vineet_k,
thanks for your detailed description. Now I know what you mean. Very clevery idea :)
Please note , we have to consider the weight of water in the cylinder. The arm of the weight at the top is higher than the arm at bottom , but at the same time the weight of water at the bottom side of the cylinder is higher than the weight of water at the top of the cylinder.
regards
Nixon
Quote from: JEJEHO on March 12, 2012, 07:56:26 AM
Please note , we have to consider the weight of water in the cylinder. The arm of the weight at the top is higher than the arm at bottom , but at the same time the weight of water at the bottom side of the cylinder is higher than the weight of water at the top of the cylinder.
regards
Nixon
@JEJEHO,
You have got a very nice point. I think that is the reason why it doesnot work as a wheel when mounted on center axis. Even when this system is mounted on center axis, the top arm will be more than the bottom arm but still the system comes to equilibrium at some point for the reason you have stated above.
Will the same thing come into picture when you use it as a roller? ( I am not sure about it). The top arm will be of far more lentgh than the bottom arm with reference to the rolling axis and water being liquid will slide inside the cylinder when cylinder rolls. Hence you need not lift the weight of water as a whole.
Thanks for the nice catch.
Regards,
Vineet.K.
@ Veneet_kiran
and now? have you discarded you idea?
Quote from: AlanA on March 13, 2012, 12:02:26 PM
@ Veneet_kiran
and now? have you discarded you idea?
@AlanA
I have not discarded the idea. I mean to say that it works only as a roller moving on a track and not as a wheel mounted on center axis.
Vineet.K.
Hi veneeth,
This also not possible becasue the centre of gravity of the two weights up and down will be allways inside the cylinder. With the weight of water the centre of gravity of the system will be allways inside the cylinder not above the cylinder. So the cylinder will not roll becasue of the centre of gravity is inside the cylinder.
Nixon
Quote from: JEJEHO on March 14, 2012, 07:14:29 AM
Hi veneeth,
This also not possible becasue the centre of gravity of the two weights up and down will be allways inside the cylinder. With the weight of water the centre of gravity of the system will be allways inside the cylinder not above the cylinder. So the cylinder will not roll becasue of the centre of gravity is inside the cylinder.
Nixon
@JEJEHO,
I have verified that experiment. It rolls. The experiment is dependent on rotating moment which depends on difference between top and bottom arms. When top arm is longer than bottom arm with equal weights, the top arm has to fall down as per lever rules. I didnot understand the center of gravity theory. The moments of force act on the edge of the cylinder on which the arms are leaning and not at the center of gravity.
Vineet.K.
Hi Vineeth,
If it works continue your research.
Wish you a great success in your research.
Best wishes
Nixon
@ Vineeth,
Is it possible to post some photos from your researches?
Greetings
AlAn
Quote from: AlanA on March 16, 2012, 03:28:28 PM
@ Vineeth,
Is it possible to post some photos from your researches?
Greetings
AlAn
@AlanA
Taking photos and making videos is a bit luxurious affair for me. Anyway give me some time, I will try to make a video and post it here.
Regards,
Vineet.K.
@AlanA
Meanwhile if you are too much interested in this experiment, you can try this:
@ vineet
Thanks very much for you file.
Ok, when it works in water it must work with air/helium. The point is that the body which get lifted in water must be lighter than the ambient area. So it is logical that the same principle works with air and helium. What makes me thinking is: Why does the air/helium version needs a container? I think this is not necessary.
@ vineet
;) Sorry, just have read you comment where you have given the answer.
@ Vineeth,
in your test with the roller, does it rolls always in the same direction? It seems to me that it could roll on both sides, there's nothing that forces the roller in one direction or the other. Regards
Quote from: JEJEHO on March 14, 2012, 07:14:29 AM
Hi veneeth,
This also not possible becasue the centre of gravity of the two weights up and down will be allways inside the cylinder. With the weight of water the centre of gravity of the system will be allways inside the cylinder not above the cylinder. So the cylinder will not roll becasue of the centre of gravity is inside the cylinder.
Nixon
@Nixon,
You are right. When I initially conducted the experiment I think the track had a slight slope hence the cylinder was rolling. When I made the track perfectly horizontal by using a spirit level, the cylinder is not rolling. It is coming to equilibrium at some point.Thanks for showing the fault and SORRY FOR CRANKY EXPERIMENT. Regards,Vineet.K.
Nice simulation! (Useless machine)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ldaWsOWtc8&list=SPIJe1tLxlr82SvN8OOeEXcxpxPuh11dLn&index=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ldaWsOWtc8&list=SPIJe1tLxlr82SvN8OOeEXcxpxPuh11dLn&index=1)
How about the idea to use gas instead of liquid ? I mean:
1) Container filled with air at atmoshperic preasure
2) smaller container (made of some light material) put inside bigger container 1). This smaller container filled with some much lighter gas (helium or hydrogen advisable).
3) Displacement mass attached to the smaller container, just as in the simulation you attached vineet.
This way we wouldn't deal with the critical seal issue causing much friction and making the concept difficult to build. The air will be both in bigger container and outside the container so we don't have to deal with any leakages.
What do you think ?
@Airstriker,
I had thought of that. I have posted that drawing vide attachment above reply#16. (Roller using hydrogen balloon). This arrangement gains potential energy only in vertical position. I don't know whether it will really work. Unless we build it, we will not know the exact problems.
Regards,
Vineet.K.
I didn't notice that excel sheet vineet - indeed this is the same design. However, in it's current form it won't work - it will reach an equilibrium and stop rolling - just as in your experiment.
But...
How about the design from the picture below ? It's supposed to work more like a pendulum, never reaching vertical orientation because of the bumper attached to the frame at the top. This alone however will also reach equilibrium. What must be done, is a sort of latch mounted at the top of the frame and being released only when the baloon reaches the top position in the tube. This way the tube should get enough momentum to avoid equilibrium and lock another latch on the other side of the frame. Note, that the latches are not drawn in the picture.
Hope you can understand my idea - if not please ask.
@Airstriker
Nice diagram. Releasing the latch at maximum potential energy is a good idea.
But in that diagram just imagine the force acting due to balloon. A hydrogen balloon always tries to move in upward direction perpendicular to the ground and not in the direction of shaft axis carrying the weight. This upward force of the balloon acts on the bearing and tries to slow down the momentum of shaft falling down along with weight. The upward force of the balloon will be maximum when the rotating shaft comes to horizontal position. At this point the balloon trying to move upwards perpendicular to the ground will greatly reduce the momentum of falling weight. Hence this may come to equilibrium at some point or the other end will not have enough momentum to stick on to a latch.
Anyway it is difficult to imagine and as I said we have to build and see.
Regards,
Vineet.K.