All,
I am starting a alt/free energy group in Hampton Roads to work on a magnetic motor design. If any of you are interested in joining me, feel free to respond to this post and I will give you details or send me a personal message.
For those of you not in the area, I will post picks and video as the group progresses.
Thanks in advance,
Daniel
Quote from: travin69 on June 15, 2012, 09:42:49 AM
All,
I am starting a alt/free energy group in Hampton Roads to work on a magnetic motor design. If any of you are interested in joining me, feel free to respond to this post and I will give you details or send me a personal message.
For those of you not in the area, I will post picks and video as the group progresses.
Thanks in advance,
Daniel
Do you mean an ALL magnet motor?
Sorta. I does take electrical input BUT, the motor runs 100%+ on perm magnets. I have a decent design based on a currently working model from a guy in the mountains of VA. My design is designed to amplify the motor's output.
Thanks,
Daniel
Maybe you can ask the guy in the mountains to make a video of his machine - well, if it works, it would be worth looking at.
I am sceptic, as always. Magnets do not provide energy unless they "discharge" and become dead magnets - but then they are useless. Let me know when you have the video.
Vidar
Just because I haven't had any success with magnet motors doesn't mean I've lost interest so if you have any different approach, I'm all ears and ready to begin again my experiments. Sceptic? Probably, but ever the optimist especially after seeing the video on Nitinol.
There's a path forward to success so let's hope there are enough sincere people willing to give it a go.
I'm in.
Quote from: casman1969 on June 18, 2012, 04:34:05 PM
Just because I haven't had any success with magnet motors doesn't mean I've lost interest so if you have any different approach, I'm all ears and ready to begin again my experiments. Sceptic? Probably, but ever the optimist especially after seeing the video on Nitinol.
There's a path forward to success so let's hope there are enough sincere people willing to give it a go.
I'm in.
Nitinol is interesting. I have 10ft of wire I want to use for a small heat engine. This particular wire has no shape memory (Yes, below -10'C), but that is not important. It is very easy to bend when cold, and "impossible" to bend when hot. I am making a drawing of how I want to build the motor. Generally the design is like a radial engine, but instead of pistons I will use nitinol wire.
I want to use the natural temperature difference in the ground water and air to run it. I have 4 degrees C groundwater only 2 meters under ground. In the winter I have -25'C in air. That should make this thing work better the colder there is outside. Further, after a "few" improvements, this engine can run a heatpump - maybe.
You can do the same with magnets. They change magnetism with temperature - ideal for all-magnet motors ;-)
Vidar
My curiosity about Nitinol is in its possible magnetic shielding properties. Like you, I have some and have played with it but combining it in layers with mu-metal might yield some interesting magnetic shielding/forming results since they also sell it in sheets that can be cut. Conductive properties in the wire might make for some interesting drive coils...
PMs don't have to lose magnetism to do work; that would defeat the purpose of calling them "permanent". Example: a refigerator magnet does work by holding paper and the magnet's own weight against gravity, yet it doesn't lose its magnetism. A magnet's ability to be de-magnetized is based on its material's properties. AlNiCo can be magnetized and demagnetized easily where as Rare earth cannot be demagnetized so easily. It just depends on the type and uses.
As for the guy in the mountains, I have seen his videos, and everything seems to work beautifully. I am building prototypes of my own designs using his process. My design is just another adaptation of a permanent magnet motor. It does require electrical input but uses permanent magnets do do the majority of the work. Think of it as an electrical amplifier that uses magnets to amplify the power output.
The purpose of this posting was offer folks in my area the opportunity to be a part of a design that has an extremely high chance of success. In return, everyone shares in the cost and workload of the build and design. I want to control the process locally so I know everything goes well, and can be PROPERLY documented and tested. I have a fully equiped machine shop with coil winding machine. IMHO, I think it is pointless to have 50 different people working on the same design in 50 different locations when that money could be pooled and better quality prototypes can be built and tested. Case and point, look at Youtube and see all the junk people post as "Overunity". I want to produce a product that the overunity group can be proud of and can withstand scutiny. I have a local University that has agreed to do input/output tests of the final motor.
As the group builds and tests the motor, I will post videos of input and output meters. I have a proper load bank to test resistive power output and will be calculating power input based on GROSS power input from a battery. The input meter power will be protected via a blocking diode to prevent any back fluctuations from effecting the results. The output will be from a generator that powers the load bank. Again IMHO, this is the ONLY TRUE way to measure efficiency of a motor.
While I don't expect anyone to take me up on this, if any of you that are not local still want to be a part of my group, I can include you but you would have to make the same monetary contributions that the local members make. In return, my group would agree to include you on all design changes, info, and any profits we realize. All members are required to sign a 5 year non-compete agreement and all work belongs to the group as a whole. I am serious about making this system work and I know it is about the only system that has a decent chance.
I look forward to any comments you all may have.
Regards,
Daniel
Any one still interested in working colabratively on this is welcome to join. I have a systems engineer, mechanical engineer, magnet expert, and myself (nuclear engineer/chemist). Currently working on electromagnet design for overunity motor. Anyone that wants to test the results and share them with the group is welcome to. Good workmanship is critical. PM me if you want to go for it.
Once this is done, I will be posting the best design here on the forum.
Daniel
Has anyone attempted to disrupt magnetic fields with resonant frequency capacitive plates. HV, very low current either ELF or whatever freq. to alter the magnetic flux could potentilly yield uni-polar action. May be pissin in the wind but this idea keeps coming back to me. A disruption of the cogging force.
Before I make purchases for this experiment I'd like a little feedback if possible. My thought is to use non-magnetic materials for the plates with an insulated dialectric seperating them, small neo on the bottom and small piece of iron on top and then hit the plates with varuious freequencies and voltages to see if the magnet will drop. Input would be most appreciated.
Casman,
Please start your own topic for your questions.
Thanks,
Daniel
Quote from: travin69 on June 23, 2012, 02:30:41 AM
PMs don't have to lose magnetism to do work; that would defeat the purpose of calling them "permanent". Example: a refigerator magnet does work by holding paper and the magnet's own weight against gravity, yet it doesn't lose its magnetism. A magnet's ability to be de-magnetized is based on its material's properties. AlNiCo can be magnetized and demagnetized easily where as Rare earth cannot be demagnetized so easily. It just depends on the type and uses.
As for the guy in the mountains, I have seen his videos, and everything seems to work beautifully. I am building prototypes of my own designs using his process. My design is just another adaptation of a permanent magnet motor. It does require electrical input but uses permanent magnets do do the majority of the work. Think of it as an electrical amplifier that uses magnets to amplify the power output.
The purpose of this posting was offer folks in my area the opportunity to be a part of a design that has an extremely high chance of success. In return, everyone shares in the cost and workload of the build and design. I want to control the process locally so I know everything goes well, and can be PROPERLY documented and tested. I have a fully equiped machine shop with coil winding machine. IMHO, I think it is pointless to have 50 different people working on the same design in 50 different locations when that money could be pooled and better quality prototypes can be built and tested. Case and point, look at Youtube and see all the junk people post as "Overunity". I want to produce a product that the overunity group can be proud of and can withstand scutiny. I have a local University that has agreed to do input/output tests of the final motor.
As the group builds and tests the motor, I will post videos of input and output meters. I have a proper load bank to test resistive power output and will be calculating power input based on GROSS power input from a battery. The input meter power will be protected via a blocking diode to prevent any back fluctuations from effecting the results. The output will be from a generator that powers the load bank. Again IMHO, this is the ONLY TRUE way to measure efficiency of a motor.
While I don't expect anyone to take me up on this, if any of you that are not local still want to be a part of my group, I can include you but you would have to make the same monetary contributions that the local members make. In return, my group would agree to include you on all design changes, info, and any profits we realize. All members are required to sign a 5 year non-compete agreement and all work belongs to the group as a whole. I am serious about making this system work and I know it is about the only system that has a decent chance.
I look forward to any comments you all may have.
Regards,
Daniel
I cannot offer you money, but I can offer you some thoughts. Magnets does not carry kinetic energy that can be harvested. Whatever video you have watched, it is probably a machine being running it by a hidden motor/energysource. Magnets does hovever carry POTENTIAL energy. To harvest potential energy, the potential has to give - meaning that the magnets will die out if you take the potential away from them. So if the magnet keeps a permanent magnetism, means that you cannot harvest energy from them - not without applying energy like you apply a generator from waterfall, or other mechanical input.
A fridge-magnet keeps the papers and notes stationary (Per definition, a stationary force is not work), and doesn't move around by themself - unless falling down to the floor if the magnetic force isn't strong enough.
No offence, but if it is money you need, you can probably go find an investor that is easy to fool.
Vidar
Low Q,
I appreciate your advice and counsel. I however don't agree with you with respect to permanent magnets having only potential energy. A rare earth magnet will keep its magnetism until it is demagnetized. This is from either heat or with a sufficient reverse magnetic force to overcome the magnet's coercivity. Look at AlNiCo magnets. They are strong, but demagnetize easily. Simply wrapping a coil around them and running current through it is enough to demagnetize. If you run enough though it, you can reverse the poles. If permanent magnets lost their magnetism, why would companies like GE make permanent magnet motors with permanent magnets on the stators? They do work as they lock themselves in the magnetic flux of the armeture windings. Permanent magnets are batteries for magnetic fields, but never really go dead.
I currently have a motor that I built that runs on permanent magnets (well, I should say the majority of the power is generated from permanent magnets; I think it is more but don't have proof yet). I still need electrical input (but that will always be the case). How do I know this is true? Simple, I removed the magnets from their holder and let the motor run on the coils. I then calculated the amount of energy that was required to stop the rotor from spinning. It didn't take much, a few in lbs max (based on my calibrated finger). I then place the magnets back in their holder and did the same experiment. It took much more force to stall the engine. Another clue that leads me to believe that I am on the right track is that the amperage draw of the motor is INDEPENDENT of load. Voltage is basically stable as I use batteries for my power source. Every other motor's amperage draw is based on the mechanical load that is placed on the motor's shaft; more load, more current. My motor doesn't suffer this downfall, as it uses permanent magnets to drive it's rotor.
I am currently building an mini generator to determine just how much power I can get out of the motor. If I can get more out than electrical input in, then I am right where I want to be. If not, then my future changes should allow me to get there (we shall see). Many will say that if I do get more out than I put in, that I am breaking the laws of physics and thermodynamics. In reality I am not, when you compute the ENTIRE energy balance equation, I am well under unity at any one moment in time. People forget to include the energy needed magnetize the magnets, which is a rather large amount of energy. This is the fact that keeps me working on this. I will never get more out than I put in. Magnets don't get more powerful with you magnetize them. They are bound by the properties of the materials used. They do however have a force that is smaller then the one used to make them, and that basically is around for the foreseeable future (unless they are abused with heat, ect...). This is the beauty of permanent magnets, they are permanent (within reason that is).
Thanks,
Daniel
Daniel, Have you seen the PM motor new design by Ufopolitics at energetic fprum? It is an inspired design ( based on the Tesla patents). http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11885-my-asymmetric-electrodynamic-machines-28.html
Not until now. My motor design that I have currently is very similiar to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxrJoGZy1to&feature=youtu.be) except I have a power shaft that I am building a generator for to test the output power. My unit draws 0.6 amps at 24 volts. Amperage is independent of load.
My new design is based on attraction vice repulsion. Magnets in attraction are more powerful than in repulsion. Not sure if it will work in attraction as repulsion is much easier to work with and takes less energy to negate, so we shall see soon.
I hope to have the generator built soon as well so I can test electrical output.
Thanks,
Daniel
you would not touch Lenz, he is invincible. Such models are well calculate in FEM programs
Jonifer,
Feel free to explain.
Thanks,
Daniel
To date, no known example of Lenz's rule violation. Coil with a variable cross-section, the bifilar coil, piramid coil, superconductor coil and any form of core or material etc. - total energy ballance.
Jonifer,
Thanks for the try but I just don't have the knowledge to understand what you are telling me. I am a trial and error kinda person when it comes to electrical engineering/magnetic physics.
From my standpoint on building an overunity motor, I look at input energy vs output energy (actual power out, not mathmatically calculated). At the current moment, my test motor draws 0.6 - 0.7 amps at 24 volts; no matter what load is placed on the motor, it stays at 15-16 watts. I measure the actual energy that is drawn from the battery, through the power measuring device, into the motor controller, ie gross power into the motor. Once the generator is done (looks like next Monday), I will connect it to the motor shaft and place a dc resistance load on the generator. The same type of power measuring device will be between the generator and the load. I will then compare the two and calculate my efficiency. I want real world figures that include all the inefficiencies and tolerance ganging issues. I feel this is much more indicative of performance, as it is actual real performance.
Once I test the unit, I will optimize each piece based on my research and design abilities. My plans include: magnetic bearings, top quality electrical iron core material (vice 1018 CRS), variations of bifilar and litz wired coils, parallel wound coils, core shape variations, and other changes. Each change will then be tested to see how the input/output power levels are affected. At this current moment, I feel that the core material, shape, and coil windings are the key to reaching overunity in my case, though more specifically the coil windings. I see the way to overunity via coils with bifilar/parallel windings, as this affects the power input (I can lower the power and keep the amps the same). This combined with an optimal core material is as good as I can get. If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work.
I am extremely excited about the results next week.
Thanks,
Daniel
no chance, in all conceivable ways this is done, max COP=95% for modify motor-generator system.
Jonifer,
Thanks for the comments. I appreciate them. I am still not convinced and I will let the test results determine the outcome and path of my research. I am sure that many people have tried doing what I am doing. I just don't know their capabilities and their materials used. I am winding the second coil this weekend. If it performs like my calculations suggest it will, I might be able to prove you wrong about overunity motors. If not, I will just keep trying other things until I exhaust my resources or something works.
As an addition to my testing, once I have (large assumption here) got more out than I put in (net), I will wire it to be a self running machine. This I believe is the ultimate test of overunity and will once and for all prove if an overunity magnetic motor is possible.
Thanks again,
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
IT is a good sign your motor does not draw more input power when you load its shaft. Can you stop the shaft by your handgrip? how "beefy" it is I wonder.
You wrote you have been building a generator to test output and possibly loop the mot-gen setup. This is bit tricky because you do not know 2 things: your present motor efficiency and your would-be generator efficiency. In case your motor has (say) COP=1.1 (this would mean 110% efficiency) and you generator will have (say) COP=0.85 (85%), then looping them would result in 1.1 times 0.85=0.935 i.e. by looping you would get a stop soon. AND you still would have a motor with 110% efficiency but how would you notice that? I deliberately chose COP numbers to show this 'dilema': how would you know in advance the COP of your generator, it would be needed to test by some means. IF you are aware of these, then sorry for my ranting.
Regarding the looping, you must be careful and some voltage regulation means should be used between the gen output and motor output otherwise a very fast runaway situation may develope, ruining your circuits.
Greetings,
Gyula
Gyula,
You have hit my diliema on the head. I have been struggling with this for some time now. I was going to order a generator online (perm mag dc) until I checked the efficiency (it was 55%). I am looking for another option currently with an efficiency over 90%. I might have to build a small ponybreak to calculate load on the shaft if I can't find a better genset. My motor only goes about 500 rpm so finding an efficient, low speed gen has been rough. The search continues.
As for the motor I have built, it is very weak; I can easily stop it with my hand. I only used small magnets due to cost. If I can't do it with small magnets, I can't do it with larger ones, and there is no need to spend the extra money.
Hope to have some options this week for the generator for load testing. I will keep this thread updated.
Thanks,
Daniel
From Brian
I am new to the group, but I bring a strong message. I have been testing with Arthur Manelas for nearly 12 months. He wraps 22-guage wire around three perpendicular axises of a ferrite billet the size of a paperback book. He send rapid rise time pulses through the windings and several unknown components that result in highvoltage pulses being sent to a battery.
This is a combination of Bedini and Floyd Sweet, but it works and produces about 80 watts of electrical power. It is over unity, but I do not know how or why it works. I just learned about nitinol and thought that it may be better than Arthur's barrium ferrite billet.
Arthur 'conditions' the billets by some proprietary process that result in abupt firld gradients acoss the billet, so fast rising pulses see these abrupt field changes and the resulting induce fields in the windings somehow get amplified.
I am excited about this concept. Please believe me that the Manelas device works, but I am not privy to the circuit.
Hi Daniel,
Unfortunately there is no efficiency data at all but maybe the seller can provide the manifacturer data sheet for this relatively cheap permanent magnet generator (unless the shipping cost is not prohibitive), see this link:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WIND-PMA-PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-GENERATOR-TURBINE-/390447133424
(Strangely enough, the same generator (but for fractions of penny) from the same seller in the USA ebay is here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/WIND-PMA-PERMANENT-MAGNET-ALTERNATOR-GENERATOR-TURBINE-/390447510682?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5ae87c349a )
The big question is whether your motor would be able to maintain this generator in rotation when you load the gen output by just 15-16W BUT if you could obtain it at a relatively cheap shipping cost, it may be worth the risk? Especially if you see this generator rotor offer: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Renagade-7-mag-pma-permanent-magnet-alternator-rotor-for-wind-turbine-generator-/280929258029?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4168b04a2d
I was thinking of bicycle generators built into the hub (because their efficiency is usually specified) but realized they do not normally provide 15-16W output power and they are expensive (and afterall their efficiency is anything between 60-85%): http://www.bikequarterly.com/VBQgenerator.pdf
So what remains for you as the cheapest solution (at least I think) is to build a decent Prony brake setup to measure your motor's output shaft torque... though you are surely familiar with it, here is a link you may have not come across, see Page 19 for a simple torque measurement in the PDF file:
http://www.stirlingengine.com/download/smart_stirling_manual.pdf
(this is a good forum here too: http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=198 )
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: briansahern on July 30, 2012, 11:19:07 AM
From Brian
I am new to the group, but I bring a strong message. I have been testing with Arthur Manelas for nearly 12 months. He wraps 22-guage wire around three perpendicular axises of a ferrite billet the size of a paperback book. He send rapid rise time pulses through the windings and several unknown components that result in highvoltage pulses being sent to a battery.
This is a combination of Bedini and Floyd Sweet, but it works and produces about 80 watts of electrical power. It is over unity, but I do not know how or why it works. I just learned about nitinol and thought that it may be better than Arthur's barrium ferrite billet.
Arthur 'conditions' the billets by some proprietary process that result in abupt firld gradients acoss the billet, so fast rising pulses see these abrupt field changes and the resulting induce fields in the windings somehow get amplified.
I am excited about this concept. Please believe me that the Manelas device works, but I am not privy to the circuit.
Hi Brian,
I have never heard of Arthur and his 'conditioned ferrite billets so I did a little search and found this link:
http://e-catsite.com/manelas-device/
I wonder if Arthur makes money from his knowledge and that is the reason he keeps it proprietary? In this case he would never reveal it... Bedini is said to be knowing how Sweet 'conditioned' his BaFe magnets but he sits on it...
I assume you had approached Arthur with some "questions" when you worked with him, was he firm and rejective?
Thanks,
Gyula
Those were my slides that I made from Sept-December 2011. I have gotten better data since that time and we are continuing verifying the behavior.
Brian,
Please start your own thread to talk about this stuff. I have no care about nitinol or ferrite cores unless they will directly affect my motor's performance.
Thanks,
Daniel
Gyula,
Thanks for the info. I saw some Bluewindpower generators for about 300 bucks US. The issue is that they are only 55% efficient in my rpm range. I still might buy one just to give it a whirl but I am really considering building an axial flux generator. They are 70-80% from what I can tell. For now, I think I am going to use the stirling engine string brake idea you provided. Thanks a lot for the help.
Daniel
Hi Daniel,
When you have some 12 minutes to spare for watching this youtube video from about minute 3:50 then you could see Peter Lindemann's practical demo on measuring motor torque, you may find it also informative and practical.
This is the link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLGuf1geOiQ The video itself last for more than 2 hours but the torque measurement info lasts to minute 12:30 or so. Of course you may find the full video as useful.
rgds, Gyula
please be advised, Peter Lindeman has never produced an over unity device. He is careful not to make explicit claims even though over unity is often implied.
Hi Brian,
Well, I referred to the torque measurement part because Daniel wishes to measure his motor's output power.
Greetings, Gyula
Gyula,
Thanks for the referral. I will look at it tonight. I am going to use the ponybreak idea for now with the string wrapped around the motor's output shaft and a force gauge or scale for the force values. If these results give me the values I am looking for, I found a dc permanent magnet generator that produces power at 85% efficiency.
Updates coming very soon. Just wound my new coils and have already learned some interesting things about parallel coil windings.
Thanks,
Daniel
Quote from: gyulasun on July 30, 2012, 01:13:10 PM
Hi Brian,
I have never heard of Arthur and his 'conditioned ferrite billets so I did a little search and found this link:
http://e-catsite.com/manelas-device/ (http://e-catsite.com/manelas-device/)
I wonder if Arthur makes money from his knowledge and that is the reason he keeps it proprietary? In this case he would never reveal it... Bedini is said to be knowing how Sweet 'conditioned' his BaFe magnets but he sits on it...
I assume you had approached Arthur with some "questions" when you worked with him, was he firm and rejective?
Thanks,
Gyula
here some more at MIT Brian Ahern - Nanomagnetism for Energy Production:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PS2v1kN1U8&list=UUH78efhknLR-cuL9w2hVcUQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PS2v1kN1U8&list=UUH78efhknLR-cuL9w2hVcUQ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_kID_E-3tY#t=17
interesting effect :
http://www.scientific.net/JNanoR.10.19 (http://www.scientific.net/JNanoR.10.19)
[size=78%]Hopkinson peak and superparamagnetic effects in BaFe[/size]12-x[size=78%]Ga[/size]x[size=78%]O[/size]19[size=78%] nanoparticles[/size]