:'( Yes , fellas . It's all over but the crying and the mountains of bullshit opinions (and websites ) to lay waste . The Bessler wheel has been found by yours truly . I don't care who you are it won't do you any good to argue with the truth . Those who will congratulation are in order , those who won't forget ya you hater ! Just exercising my BRAGGING RIGHTS (RALPH!) . I'd like to thank some of you guys for being human ... and understanding that a fella can get a little full of himself for no good reason at times...it's just that this is not one of those TIMES ! To many of you it may seem a little strange that a "scientific" discovery is being announced in such a "trailer park" fashion for which I don't really apologize !
To say the least, that was a fascinating post. So when do we get to hear the fat lady sing? In other words, what are your plans for the future? You tube video, open source, Patent, where do you go from here?
It seems I haven't thought about all of the rest as of yet . It's only been since last night . I think though that succeeding with the conception of the device is a very big step ( giant ) nonetheless ....and the one that everyone has the most trouble with .
@christo4_99.Thanks for your reply. So it would seem that all you have at this stage is an idea. But it sounds like a pretty good idea to make a statement like that. So all I can really say at this time, is congratulations on your idea. We all know that even the simplest of ideas take time to build and test. I sincerely hope that it all works out for you.
I've personally never disbelieved the Bessler wheel but I also was not convinced it was a real working device either. So just tell us this one thing -- do you have it built and working or is this a statement that you are sure you know how to build it to work? Thanks and good luck.
I am sure that I know how to build it to work . I have some of the materials that are required already . But the conception as I've said before is the most important thing and the very first real step to progress . If a concept is valid it will pan out in reality ... it's our understanding of things that is the most important thing . Bessler was not a scientist or great mathematician and he admitted it ... that's why he referred to himself as an "artist" . He admitted that he was obscure but laid claim to the knowledge because he possessed it , nonetheless .
When a man thinks of such a thing it seems like all people care about is the proof . This I think limits us severely and detrimentally in being able to express ( the emotional aspect ) of our discoveries openly . There have been so many delusional next guys to come along and baffle us with bullshit that we no longer care about the individual only the design/construction . Upon my return to Besslerwheel to share the design idea I had previous to this one I was greeted with a resounding " the sun is already setting on this escapade" ( by the board owner ) and " your best option is to post the design " (from a typical internet bully). Seems they don't like to believe anyone (else) could find what they haven't found , imagine what they haven't or actually walk the walk that they can't seem to .
Quote from: christo4_99 on June 28, 2012, 10:24:11 PM
When a man thinks of such a thing it seems like all people care about is the proof . This I think limits us severely and detrimentally in being able to express ( the emotional aspect ) of our discoveries openly . There have been so many delusional next guys to come along and baffle us with bullshit that we no longer care about the individual only the design/construction . Upon my return to Besslerwheel to share the design idea I had previous to this one I was greeted with a resounding " the sun is already setting on this escapade" ( by the board owner ) and " your best option is to post the design " (from a typical internet bully). Seems they don't like to believe anyone (else) could find what they haven't found , imagine what they haven't or actually walk the walk that they can't seem to .
>> it seems like all people care about is the proof <<
I think that is why some of us are in here, to find out how things can be done.
Otherwise we would be over at besslerwheel dot com.
Of course, I think what some people miss is Newton's laws of motion. If you want a body to move at a certain velocity, it needs to be acted upon by another force. And this is something older than Bessler.
With as an example, an 8 weighted wheel, there are 8 masses plus the wheels own mass which need to be acted upon by another force. We will call this force free energy for lack of a better term.
In order to move 8 weights and one wheel which will be considered the 9th through 12th weights, we would need a free energy source that has enough potential to be divided 12 times.
With one concept, if a free energy source is the equivalent rotation of a weight but has 4 times it's mass, then the wheel could rotate with the potential of 4/12 or 1/3 the potential of gravity.
What needs to be considered is how such an over balance could be achieved. This does limit the possibilities. At 1/3rd a (a is the acceleration of gravity) which would be about 3.25 m/s would allow for a rotation of 60 rpm if the circumfrence of the wheel is 3.25 m or has a diameter of about 1 meter.
With solid weights, any over balance would be limited and if given the luxury of being unrealistic, we will say 100% or equal to it's own mass in over balance. Possible, Bessler did build what Dr. Peter Lindemann has refered to as a clanger.
But then, what type of design would allow for a weight of say 1/2 kg move a weight/mass of 2 kg's ? If you could understand that, then you could understand how something like a hoist would work, you know, lifting heavy things to the 2nd floor.
With hoists, it is not so much brute power but they use pulleys to allow a greater weight to be lifted. As such, 35kg's could be lifted by something with 98nm of force, that's 5kg's @ 1/2 meter if I remember correctly. And with Bessler, the rope was wound around the axle if his drawing is to be believed. Very possible.
Still, he did say it would take a good carpenter to build his wheel and do believe this to be true. It is something that would probably take someone who has experience working with wood.
Unfortunately, people like that probably would be found some where else working on their own projects.
Wouldn't mind seeing someone get something working, I think it would be nice.
Jim
Well you certainly got our attention. I'm not a hater and I'm rooting for you, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Can't wait to see it
J
J847 ,
I think what people ( myself included ) don't realize is it takes a certain form of a machine to take advantage of what already exists . We have a feel for how we want our machine to work but just can't quite seem to put our fingers on the mechanics of how to accomplish it . As for the claims I'm not asking for a million dollars ( yet ;) ) or to be published in a scientific journal . The idea I have come up with is the form that is necessary to accomplish this motion ... it is the Mobile Per se that Bessler wrote about . That is what I believe so that's what I am gonna say . I know this is not religion either so belief doesn't mean much but I'm pretty good at this stuff really and what I'm looking at takes the "suit" off the problem .
Quote from: christo4_99 on July 01, 2012, 04:59:27 AM
J847 ,
I think what people ( myself included ) don't realize is it takes a certain form of a machine to take advantage of what already exists . We have a feel for how we want our machine to work but just can't quite seem to put our fingers on the mechanics of how to accomplish it . As for the claims I'm not asking for a million dollars ( yet ;) ) or to be published in a scientific journal . The idea I have come up with is the form that is necessary to accomplish this motion ... it is the Mobile Per se that Bessler wrote about . That is what I believe so that's what I am gonna say . I know this is not religion either so belief doesn't mean much but I'm pretty good at this stuff really and what I'm looking at takes the "suit" off the problem .
Christo,
Sadly, I do need to disagree with you. it does require some faith. it is what I have worked from. Something in his description reminded me why Boeing airplane Co. used webbing to lighten the construction of their airplanes. empty spaces (many compartments) reduce the weight.
Being more realistic, I think in his drawing of his bi- directional wheel at Merseberg where he shows 3 crosses. People have found this meaningless for some reason. With Bessler seeming to be what most people would consider a devout Christian, I dunno.
Of course, the 3 crosses reference the crucifixion of Jesus and the 2 thieves. I've never been to church in my life so would not know who Jesus was crucified with.
Still, his wheel is simple to understand but does require a capable person to build. The first drawing I am attaching shows a design where 8 knocking sounds per revolution of the wheel would be heard. If all the levers were shortened, then it could rotate in the opposing direction.
Also, the weights do fall in the direction the wheel is rotating. if it rotates in the clock wise direction, then the weights when moving upwards would fall from left to right above the axle, the same direction the wheel is rotating.
The 2nd drawing shows a basic layout for making the outer part of the wheel and it's inner part which performs the work. lamination with 1/8 inch thin plywood allows for easy construction by using polyurethane glue.
By using 3/4 inch plywood, if it is routed to form a circle, then with 4 circles, the wheel could be built.
This would be at a cost of about $80 to $100. it does cost to build.
As for myself, I have to visit the V.A. clinic tomorrow and get a medical clearance to return to work. I need a colostomy but doctors don't seem interested in resolving my situation. So i figure the least they can do is lie for me and tell my employer than I am able to work with no restrictions. God willing, I will be laid off. Until then, &*()()*^&%^%$$$. Edited for censorship, childen might be online.
By the way, with Mt 20, he said to tether your horse in the direction you want it to go. To simplify, the weights don't need to hit the hub, wasted motion and is hard on the wheel. he improved his design, he was an engineer after all.
edited to add; the bottom right of the 2nd drawing shows how one section can push down another one. This would allow for one weight / lever combination to act on the beginning of one section and the end of another.
Chris,
I'll throw a little math your way.
If the wheel is 4 inches (10 cm's) wide and the tube is rectangular and is 1 inch (2.5 cm's) deep and each section is 10 inches (25 cm's) long, then the volume is about 40 cubic inches or 625 cubic cm's. Water weighs 1 pound for every 28.3 cubic inches. This would mean that one section could hold 1.4 pounds of water (think of a 20 oz. bottle of water or soda) or 625 grams. And the 8 weights could weigh only 5.6 lbs.
This would be in a wheel with a radius of 12 3/4 inches or 32.33 cm's.
I guess the question becomes how much force can 1.4 lbs. or 625g's generate ? In American terms, close to 1 1/2 foot pounds of torque. In metric, a little more than 2nm (Newton's units of gravitational force, 1kg @ 1m = 9.8nm).
I think that would be sufficient to rotate a small table top model of a wheel.
Will be talking to my doctor to see about surgery. Need to be able to move forward in my life. Not sure how that would work out but a wheel like this might not be that difficult to build. it would mostly be getting used to the idea. After all, the wheel is composed of 8 equal sections, if you can understand one section, that is all it takes.
I think this is why the guy who made the sarcastic comment, so simple a child could build it was because once you know how it's done, it's just a matter of taking the time to build it. it's mostly having a place to work on it when you feel like it. It's a hobby and I think that is over looked sometimes.
Jim
edited to add a refernce to 20 oz.
Ok here we go again. I have this great idea but you'll understand that I can't build it right now
because of blah blah blah but it will work...
When I look a the drawing I see a bottom heavy problem. Just draw one arm on a paper and rotate
it and I think you will see. Unless you can demonstrate to me that the center of gravity is
moved up above the axle I see no way this will work. But I hope you proove me wrong.
Norman
Quote from: norman6538 on July 06, 2012, 08:02:58 AM
Ok here we go again. I have this great idea but you'll understand that I can't build it right now
because of blah blah blah but it will work...
When I look a the drawing I see a bottom heavy problem. Just draw one arm on a paper and rotate
it and I think you will see. Unless you can demonstrate to me that the center of gravity is
moved up above the axle I see no way this will work. But I hope you proove me wrong.
Norman
Uh, Norman,
Right now I am off work without pay for medical reasons, basically I need surgery and may have to sell my car.
It works for me.
As for the drawing, there is no bottom heavy problem. The weights on the levers cancel each other out, no gain and no loss.
This is why the water being pumped provides the over balance and it can be maintained to be centered at the level of the axel where it provides the greatest amount of torque.
As Bessler said, it will always strive to reach equilibrium but it will never find it's balance. This is because as the wheel rotates, it keeps pumping the water upwards. This is because the weights on the levers will have more force when they are at a right angle to gravity than hanging from their pivots.
By the way Norman, to me, it is about demonstrating Bessler's accomplishment, have nothing to prove to anyone, sorry about that.
Johnny874
edited to add, this drawing shows the weight on the lever closer to what it's actual position would be. The drawing is a reference. At a 4:1 ratio, the weight would seem to land on the outer curved boards but would not. This is if the short lever moves 3 inches, the weight would move 12 inches.
when a lever is at 45%, it's total force would be 70.7% of the torque it is capable of producing which is length of lever times the weight on it's end. At a right angle to gravit, a 2.2 lb. or 1 kg. weight at 39 inches or 1 meter produces 1 nm of torque or about 6.5 foot lb.s of torque if using SAE.
For the scale I am refering to which is about 25 inches or 62.5 cm's in daimeter, a 1 lb. weight on a lever 1 foot long would generate 1 ft. lb.of torque. If the short leverr is 3 inches long, then at a 4:1 ratio, 4 lb.s of water could be pumped.
In metric terms, @ 30 cm's and .45 kg's, 1.8 kg's would be the equivalent force. And if only 1/2 that is used, then the other half could be converted into the spin of the wheel resulting in free rotation or a state of perpetuality as Bessler called it.
@All,
If my car is the only thing I lose because of my medical problems, it can be replaced.
I am fortunate that I have an employer that is willing to let me keep my job. So if need be,
I would just need to move closer to work and ride the bus. can always buy another car.
Johnny874
edited to add; since this is last post I made, with leverage Bessler style, a 4:1 ratio requires the long
lever to be 5 times longer than the short lever, This would mean that in a 2 meter wheel with a hub
that is 25cm's in diameter that for the long lever to move 75 cm's, the short lever would need to
be 15 cm's long. This would allow for the outside thinkness of the wheel to be 12.5 cm's. And this is
why the one witness said the weight landed on a short warped board, it would have given that appearance.
And if I don't build Bessler's wheel, I am hoping someone who likes working with wood and building things
will take an interest in it. there are some things that would make building it much easier, but those lessons
have been difficult to learn and understand. So it might take a little faith on someone else's part to trust me.
Johnny874
@All,
Here is a modified version of Mt 20 with Bessler's quuote. I "harnessed" the horse in front.
This allows the "horse" to be attached to the long lever.
His Quote;
"No. 20: Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied. I then reminded him to harness the horse in front."- Johann Bessler
edited to post smaller pic :D
btw, the round points on the ends of the short levers are not weights but are designed to confuse someone hoping to find an easy solution to Bessler's wheel. Other wise, it would have been solved long ago.
Johnny874
Chris, I just gotta mention this, it isn't "I ain't skeered", it's I "hain't skeered". My mom was, is and always will be a hillybilly. :o 8)
I can relate to the enthusiasm expressed here. I must of "invented" about 5 or 6 different Bessler wheels at different times in the past, and each time I was 100 % sure my invention would work this time exactly as I imagined. My logic was flawless and very clever, how could it not work I thought! The euphoria and emotional "high" that such a mental invention generates can not be underestimated. The eureka moment is too powerful, and can not be kept to ones self, you have to share it. But the unfortunate thing is that after much effort to build the invention, you find out it does not work and the ensuing emotional low is hard to stomach. The higher the euporia the lower the depression. But, there is always a principle that was overlooked, or something new to learn, which is all worthwhile in the end, but at what cost!
Let's talk about the wheel and the eyewitness accounts.
One of the most telling accounts is the one from Willem Jacob http://www.besslerwheel.com/accounts.html (http://www.besslerwheel.com/accounts.html)
[/i]When I turned it but gently, it always stood still as soon as I took my hand away. But when I gave it any tolerable degree of velocity, I was always obliged to stop it again by force; for when I let it go it acquired in two or three turns its greatest velocity, after which it revolved at twenty-five or twenty-six times a minute.[/i]
Note that the wheel comes to a stop if moved gently, but if moved a bit rapidly it accelerates. This is a huge clue, and put together with other statements illustrates the principle of operation.
In most perpetual motion machines, an initial velocity is imparted to a wheel and it keeps going by virtue of momentum and kinetic energy stored in its motion, but in the case of the Bessler wheel, the initial velocity is not storing energy in kinetic energy of the wheel, but what it does instead is store energy internally by either compressing a spring or shifting weights to one side, which is a lot different.
The main point is this: the overbalance of the wheel occurs under motion and is a DYNAMIC PROCESS, not STATIC, so the wheel is OVERBALANCED only when in motion. This point is very important because if anybody tries to think up overbalanced diagrams in a static configuration they will never find the solution. I wasted so many hours thinking in Static mode until I realized this principle.
So, the way I imagine the wheel mechanism is quite simple. Eight pendulums, that only swing out to one side, and centrifugal forces displace them only under dynamic motion.
I feel another eureka moment coming on. :P
EM
Emdevices,
Thanks for your report
I've experienced several Eureka-I got it for sures myself too.
I had one yesterday that failed. The idea was to shift the center of
gravity up and the mechanism worked but did not shift the CG up.
This is a great point.
"the eyewitness accounts".
It does reveal a great deal.
Centrifugal force certainly would account for the eyewitness account.
I just can't believe its gone all these years and no one has stumbled onto
the Bessler secret yet.
Thanks for the useful discussion....
Norman
Hi
Gravity is good and from the have to be possibilites get out power for homes. Here is littlebit more
Thhing
some things more
Thing
@all,
MoRo answered the dynamic motion question in his thread, centripetal force yields overunity.
M x V squared divided by R equals inertia.
This means that a 1kg weight moving @2ms with a radius of 1 meter would have the force of 4kg,s.
And if leverage increases it,s force 2 or 3 times, then it would have 8 to 12kg,s of force.
What ever moment I had came anx went a couple of years ago. This is more like a second job but it doesn,t come with much more than a heacache.
Johnny874
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 02:57:13 AM
In most perpetual motion machines, an initial velocity is imparted to a wheel and it keeps going by virtue of momentum and kinetic energy stored in its motion, but in the case of the Bessler wheel, the initial velocity is not storing energy in kinetic energy of the wheel, but what it does instead is store energy internally by either compressing a spring or shifting weights to one side, which is a lot different.
::) yeah pffff... name one perpetual motion machine. your claim that "In most perpetual motion machines, an initial velocity is imparted to a wheel" is asinine. no such thing exists.
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 02:57:13 AM
The main point is this: the overbalance of the wheel occurs under motion and is a DYNAMIC PROCESS, not STATIC, so the wheel is OVERBALANCED only when in motion. This point is very important because if anybody tries to think up overbalanced diagrams in a static configuration they will never find the solution. I wasted so many hours thinking in Static mode until I realized this principle.
the main point is this... you are wasting time and energy on a flawed principle based upon the flawed assumption that bessler was bona fide, when in all likelihood he was confused if not an outright liar. a bessler wheel has no more chance of working than say... a hydro differential pressure exchange system. ;)
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 02:57:13 AM
So, the way I imagine the wheel mechanism is quite simple. Eight pendulums, that only swing out to one side, and centrifugal forces displace them only under dynamic motion.
so, looking at some alleged quote from bessler (even with the assumption that he is being truthful) tells us nothing. it's validity and veracity cannot be verified. and... we all know gravity is a conservative force. ::)
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 02:57:13 AM
I feel another eureka moment coming on. :P
followed by yet another emotional low... :P
Wilby,
LMAO :-D
You just made the point be was trying to make about tne quote.
With a little push, the weights moving downward generate little inertia, with a more forceful push it will square the velocity imparted onto it.
The difference between 1 squared which is 1 and 2 squared which is 4 is 3.
1 extra ms adds 3 ms in inertial force.
It does matter.
Johnny
Quote from: johnny874 on July 08, 2012, 10:59:45 AM
Wilby,
LMAO :-D
You just made the point be was trying to make about tne quote.
With a little push, the weights moving downward generate little inertia, with a more forceful push it will square the velocity imparted onto it.
The difference between 1 squared which is 1 and 2 squared which is 4 is 3.
1 extra ms adds 3 ms in inertial force.
It does matter.
Johnny
LMFAO indeed.... no it doesn't matter. or you would have a working wheel wouldn't you... ::)
Quotethe main point is this... you are wasting time and energy on a flawed principle based upon the flawed assumption that bessler was bona fide, when in all likelihood he was confused if not an outright liar. a bessler wheel has no more chance of working than say... a hydro differential pressure exchange system.
Willby, why do you say Bessler was "confused" and an "outright liar"? Do you have any other info besides what's available at Besslerwheel.com ? In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it. If it wasn't for such eyewitness accounts from such illustrious folk, I wouldn't have wasted any time on this.
So, how do explain the machine outputting power to the water screw and slowing down to 20 rotations per minute from 26 when not loaded? This demonstration was done not for a few minutes but DAYS! The shaft bearings were exposed, no compressed air used, etc... All this was performed in the presence of very skeptical folks with keen eyes. The only thing they couldn't see was inside this light wooden frame wheel. What was inside and what powered it? Gravity? something else?
Quotegravity is a conservative fource
yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing. Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly", and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind. If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well. very intriguing!
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
Willby, why do you say Bessler was "confused" and an "outright liar"? Do you have any other info besides what's available at Besslerwheel.com ?
i didn't say that. i said
in all likelihood he was confused
or an outright liar. yes i do, try a physics 101 class...
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it. If it wasn't for such eyewitness accounts from such illustrious folk, I wouldn't have wasted any time on this.
i see, so you're basing your assumed principle on a logically fallacious 'appeal to authority'. and where is the math from these "great mathematicians" showing how and why bessler's wheel works... ::) what was inspected? bessler's 'secret sauce'? the magical box inside the wheel? ::)
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 12:08:39 PMSo, how do explain the machine outputting power to the water screw and slowing down to 20 rotations per minute from 26 when not loaded? This demonstration was done not for a few minutes but DAYS! The shaft bearings were exposed, no compressed air used, etc... All this was performed in the presence of very skeptical folks with keen eyes. The only thing they couldn't see was inside this light wooden frame wheel. What was inside and what powered it? Gravity? something else?
i don't. nor do i care to spend my time pondering on things that
allegedly occurred hundreds of years ago. what powered it? probably a well fed koala... ;)
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing. Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly", and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind. If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well. very intriguing!
EM
no. it makes this 'invention' impossible... ::) so how is eric laithwaite relevant here? are you saying bessler had a gyroscope in his wheel? and you know, if bessler was here right now posting his 'ideas' you would most likely be speaking to him the same way you spoke to stiffler and to mrwayne and to... etc. etc.
Quotei didn't say that. i said in all likelihood he was confused or an outright liar. yes i do, try a physics 101 class...
Willby, I can tell you don't do very well with probability and statistics, because you're very bad at judging "likelihood". How can a confused guy build such a novel machine and impress the most critical minds of his time?
Quoteno. it makes this 'invention' impossible...
well it apparently was created and it worked and it was witnessed by a lot of people, so why impossible? I don't think there were any animals inside powering the wheel, you can do better than that.
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
Willby, why do you say Bessler was "confused" and an "outright liar"? Do you have any other info besides what's available at Besslerwheel.com ? In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it. If it wasn't for such eyewitness accounts from such illustrious folk, I wouldn't have wasted any time on this.
So, how do explain the machine outputting power to the water screw and slowing down to 20 rotations per minute from 26 when not loaded? This demonstration was done not for a few minutes but DAYS! The shaft bearings were exposed, no compressed air used, etc... All this was performed in the presence of very skeptical folks with keen eyes. The only thing they couldn't see was inside this light wooden frame wheel. What was inside and what powered it? Gravity? something else?
yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing. Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly", and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind. If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well. very intriguing!
EM
EM,
>> In fact, it is not really his reputation that is on the line here, but that of great mathematicians and "scientists" of the time who witnessed the machine run and inspected it <<
Is this an obvious reference to Liebniz ? Most people over look him when it comes to Bessler.
Also, they do need to thnk about his mv^2/r=cf (centrifugal force). With Bessler's wheel, if a weight has 1kg2m/s^2/1m=cf, then with an inertial velocity of 4m/s, it is less than gravity's acceleration of 9.8m/s which means that the weights would still fall in the direction the wheel is rotating and would strike the hub making 8 knocking sounds per revolution.
@Wilby, when you're sober, read post #14.
@Thing, care to let us know a little about your invention ?
@All, with Bessler, do believe he found pumping water to be special (a refernece to his "special weight" quote attached to Mt 20). Water does not conform to the normal rules of leverage a solid weight uses. If 1 foot pound of force is applied to a pump, it can pump 1 pound of water up 1 foot.
The distance the pump travels doesn't matter. It could have a lift of 12 inches for the water with a 1 inch drop/movement of the pump. Basic hydraulic theory. If anything, Bessler realized certain attributes of hydraulics well before anyone else thought of using hoses to pump fluids. 1700 was the very early stages of the Industrial Revolution.
Johnny874
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 12:08:39 PM
yes it is, which makes this invention the more intriguing. Recently I was introduced to the exploits of Eric Laithwaite, and watched the Christmas video where he demonstrates gyroscopes and raised a 40 lb gyroscope above his head "effortlessly", and I have to say that's very impressive so I'm keeping an open mind. If this invention works based on weights and gravity alone, it is because it is taking advantage of some dynamic imbalance, not static, although I just read that there was one wheel that had to be tied down so it wouldn't turn, so maybe it was a static imbalance as well. very intriguing!
EM
EM,
Don't forget that the Segway uses gyro power to maintain it's balance.
Of course, gyro's helped the U.S. to defeat Japan in WW II because gyros allowed for more accurate
aiming of our big guns at sea. Great stabilizers.
Did see one large gyro in Seattle at the science museum where it was slow to start moving but was hell to stop.
Still, they seem to be a closed loop system that stores energy very well.
Johnny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-hcpj1G1T8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-hcpj1G1T8)
edited to correct content
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
Willby, I can tell you don't do very well with probability and statistics, because you're very bad at judging "likelihood". How can a confused guy build such a novel machine and impress the most critical minds of his time?
yeah... ::) those who were wrapped up in astrology, ghosts, bloodletting and such? those guys who just a generation earlier laughed at galileo? and it would take another generation before those same 'critical minds' laughed at sadi carnot... ::)
now, where's that math from these "great mathematicians" you spoke of?
Quote from: EMdevices on July 08, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
well it apparently was created and it worked and it was witnessed by a lot of people, so why impossible? I don't think there were any animals inside powering the wheel, you can do better than that.
EM
well then it should be easy to build shouldn't it... ::) why don't you have a working bessler wheel? look at what you do have: a perpetual motion machine 'powered by weights and gravity' whose secrets are now lost. you have no evidence how bessler’s wheel was powered, it could have been clockwork, or a heat engine, or a well fed koala in a wheel. bessler is an interesting piece of historical arcana, nothing more.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 08, 2012, 01:38:21 PM
yeah... ::) those who were wrapped up in astrology, ghosts, bloodletting and such? those guys who just a generation earlier laughed at galileo? and it would take another generation before those same 'critical minds' laughed at sadi carnot... ::)
now, where's that math from these "great mathematicians" you spoke of?
well then it should be easy to build shouldn't it... ::) why don't you have a working bessler wheel? look at what you do have: a perpetual motion machine 'powered by weights and gravity' whose secrets are now lost. you have no evidence how bessler’s wheel was powered, it could have been clockwork, or a heat engine, or a well fed koala in a wheel. bessler is an interesting piece of historical arcana, nothing more.
Wilby,
Liebniz was a contemporary of Newtons and co-invented calculus.
read for yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz)
Quote from: johnny874 on July 08, 2012, 01:45:28 PM
Wilby,
Liebniz was a contemporary of Newtons and co-invented calculus.
read for yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz)
so what? as far as i am aware gottfried never inspected this wheel, he only got a letter from gravesande describing it... where is his math on how and why the 'invention' works?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 08, 2012, 01:51:03 PM
so what? as far as i am aware gottfried never inspected this wheel, he only got a letter from gravesande describing it... where is his math on how and why the 'invention' works?
Wilby,
It's a matter of understanding the mechanics. If you consider Mt21, do you think it would work ?
Of course not, both sdes are equal. No over or under balance. but then, everyone has been missing something.
If the levers are thought of as pendulums, then what is being over looked ? It's the torque they generate at their fulcrums. Apparently Bessler understood this.
With torque, 1 ft.lb. can lift 1 lb., 1 ft. With solid weights, it requires equal motion or movement. With hydraulics,
the movement does not need to be equal. With a pump, as I have mentioned, if a lever drops a matter of inches, it can move fluids a greater distance.
With Mt 21, the weights moving downward would be considered along the lines of mv^2 and the weights moving accross the top would not. This is because they would fall onto the hub and have a much slower velocity. Also, when a weight is hanging from it's fulcrum, it's movement sidewise would be the same as it's fulcrum, it would be ma/tangent.
With Bessler's wheel, I think it's better understood if you consider that a falling weight can pump up water to a greater height and the faster the wheel rotates, the better it pumps.
With the video I made, there is a bottle neck at the outlet. It's primitive but shows water can be pumped quite easily.
To build a wheel using such a concept requires almost having a wood shop. A band saw would be helpful believe it or not.
It would make bulding it much easier because warping boards is not as easy as you think.
Johnny874
note the weight even lands on something
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h33LqXPCdV4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h33LqXPCdV4)
p.s. take a day or 2 to think about it
edited to add; if you consider the weighted lever drops 3 or 4 inches
and the water moves over 12 inches, I think that's a nice ratio
MY GAWD! you've invented the lever! good show old chap...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 08, 2012, 03:56:21 PM
MY GAWD! you've invented the lever! good show old chap...
I think this is why if I get in to see my doctor tomorrow, I'll probably be done with this.
No time to consider somethng, just ignorant comments.
Of course, on ships they use sequential pumping systems, but that's not in your text book, is it ?
Quote from: johnny874 on July 08, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
I think this is why if I get in to see my doctor tomorrow, I'll probably be done with this.
No time to consider somethng, just ignorant comments.
Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment, you must also be right. -Robert Park
Quote from: johnny874 on July 08, 2012, 04:11:20 PM
Of course, on ships they use sequential pumping systems, but that's not in your text book, is it ?
why don't they just use bessler wheels?
but seriously guys... his maid admitted to the fraud... and shortly thereafter he destroyed the wheel in a fit of rage. what was johann's middle name? mylow?
you sounc like ab hammer you know everytning but mechanical engineering
you snould stick to what you know because this isnt it and I do have more important things to concern myself with
bye
Johny,
It has often Amazed me just How much the Entity known as "Wilby" actually does know!
Fortunately his worship falls short in the "All seeing and Knowing" Department.
And of course as with all such Deities,
NO MANNERS WHATSOEVER!!
I appreciate your contribution as well as those of others here.
You make us think .
[Deities Don't think... They just Thought !;.[ [nothing new.......]
Very refreshing Johny.
Thanks
Chet
PS
I hope I made some gramar or Spelling mistakes in the above post
It makes him very itchy["The W"] ,and since he put me On "Ignore" like a decade ago.
{which I have grown to appreciate more with each passing day]
I get satisfaction out of the small things in life these days.
Quotebut seriously guys... his maid admitted to the fraud... and shortly thereafter he destroyed the wheel in a fit of rage.
Willby, is that true? where does this piece of information come from? Do you have a link?
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on July 09, 2012, 02:43:11 AM
Willby, is that true? where does this piece of information come from? Do you have a link?
EM
of course it is. i have no motivation to lie. her name was anne rosine mauersbergerin. she testified under oath. not only that, several devices were built by andreas gärtner that reproduced some of the 'successes' of bessler's public demonstrations... including the locked-room test. and they were acknowledged as trickery.
Quote from: EMdevices on July 09, 2012, 02:43:11 AM
Willby, is that true? where does this piece of information come from? Do you have a link?
EM
EM,
What needs to be considered is if she was just saving her ass and leaving Bessler out in the cold. Wouldn't be the first time someone has turned on somebody and won't be the last.
What it took for me to understand this concept was slowly working on the idea over a few months. It does take time to understand new idea's and Bessler's wheel is just that, a new idea. Will always be intoxicated can't accpet that doing something other than drinking and reading, but building, leads to new understandings.
Myself, I've spent 5 years building and learning how Newton's Laws of Motion applies to mechanical motion. This is why I consider the math to be 4m-a/.5a + 4m+a/.5a = 8m/a.
That is to say that the acceleration of gravity is cancelled out by the opposing weights being lifted which then any acceleration is a direct relationship between the masses being rotated (Newton's 2nd Law of Motion, see link) and the potential acceleration of the mass creating the over balance.
And since mass with no velocity is considered to have no force 1kg*0=0, it's potential or kinetic energy is what is being transfered and is thusly refered to as free energy.
Simply put, why the wheel rotates but the water is always in the same place.
Sometin' for will b 2 con cidder ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion)
Quote from: johnny874 on July 09, 2012, 11:01:03 AM
EM,
What needs to be considered is if she was just saving her ass and leaving Bessler out in the cold. Wouldn't be the first time someone has turned on somebody and won't be the last.
What it took for me to understand this concept was slowly working on the idea over a few months. It does take time to understand new idea's and Bessler's wheel is just that, a new idea.
more misdirection from johnnyboy... ::)
WHERE IS THE MATH FROM LEIBNIZ? there is nothing credible from bessler... his maid admitted to the fraud under oath... andreas gartner built replications of his 'wheel' that reproduced some of the 'successes' of bessler's public demonstrations including the locked room test...
not only that, but there has been nothing credible from any of you as to why this wheel should work... in point of fact, both you and EM have completely avoided answering my questions about these "great mathematicians" and "scientists" and instead have chosen to respond with logical fallacy... again,
WHERE IS THE MATH FROM LEIBNIZ? where is the math from
ANY of these "great mathematicians"? where is the data from these "inspections" by "scientists"?
Quote from: johnny874 on July 09, 2012, 11:01:03 AMWill always be intoxicated can't accpet that doing something other than drinking and reading, but building, leads to new understandings.
more logical fallacy from johnnyboy... ::) again,
WHERE IS THE MATH FROM LEIBNIZ? do you even know what a cogent reply is?
Quote from: johnny874 on July 09, 2012, 11:01:03 AM
Myself, I've spent 5 years building and learning how Newton's Laws of Motion applies to mechanical motion. This is why I consider the math to be 4m-a/.5a + 4m+a/.5a = 8m/a.
That is to say that the acceleration of gravity is cancelled out by the opposing weights being lifted which then any acceleration is a direct relationship between the masses being rotated (Newton's 2nd Law of Motion, see link) and the potential acceleration of the mass creating the over balance.
And since mass with no velocity is considered to have no force 1kg*0=0, it's potential or kinetic energy is what is being transfered and is thusly refered to as free energy.
Simply put, why the wheel rotates but the water is always in the same place.
Sometin' for will b 2 con cidder ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion)
why don't you have a working wheel then?
bessler's wheel won't work... i'll give you a hint as to why johnnyboy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxn3WEGFaxE
unless of course, you plan on rewriting the laws of physics... please make sure that your new laws jive with everybody elses new laws. we wouldn’t want a conflict to arise between your physics and lifewave’s and angel light’s and q-ray’s and dna activation’s and thousands of other cranks out there.
wilby,
You are a troll.
This forum is for discussing ideas, unfortunately you have nothing to discuss.
Johnny
QuoteWHERE IS THE MATH FROM LEIBNIZ?
try calculus 101, :P
Seriously, why do you ask? It should be obvious that Bessler did not share the secret, and I'm sure these guys were very anxious to put their skills to work and analyze why this thing worked as it did.
Why don't I have a wheel like Beeslers? Because I do not know the secret, if I had it I would build a wheel to take advantage of it, and not only that I would share it, before the MIBs came knocking on my door. ;)
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on July 09, 2012, 02:55:26 PM
try calculus 101, :P
Seriously, why do you ask? It should be obvious that Bessler did not share the secret, and I'm sure these guys were very anxious to put their skills to work and analyze why this thing worked as it did.
then where is the math?
Quote from: EMdevices on July 09, 2012, 02:55:26 PM
Why don't I have a wheel like Beeslers? Because I do not know the secret, if I had it I would build a wheel to take advantage of it, and not only that I would share it, before the MIBs came knocking on my door. ;)
EM
the mib? LMFAO come on... you can do better than that. :)
EM,
It would be people like Wilby who would keep Besslers wheel from becoming known, Bessler said his weights gained their force from swinging, If you look at Mt 21, you will see that the weights swing from left to right, If they acted on anytbing, then they would gain force as they swing down,
Maybe someone could make a simulation ? It would be very helpful,
Johnny
edit, on a smart phone
Chris, you still around ?
Ya know, it just might take a working wheel. I just figured with something like water, the overbalance could be twice as much or more than what the weight weighs. Solid weights could never do that.
Johnny
I see that this thread has gone on and ON without my input . :(
Christo,
Have you read any of the books on Bessler ?
Johnny
I have read DT and AP but not GB . I saw fit to translate a lot of AP with google translate and such ... wanting to know of course what he actually wrote .
Any chance you have a link to those text ?
@All,
http://www.besslerwheel.com/writings.html#top (http://www.besslerwheel.com/writings.html#top)
"because no illustration by itself contains a description of the motion;"
Bessler mentions that due to his arrest, he has burned all of his paprers which would prove his work. He lied :D Why do I say this ? because he also said it's in his illustrations.
It is a short read on the writing shown and do reommend it.
Also, his Apologia Poetica is short and worth reading, especially the intro. http://www.besslerwheel.com/writings/apologia.html (http://www.besslerwheel.com/writings/apologia.html)
This is because he said it is for people who wish to speculate.
I've worked mostly from his drawings having built some and parts of others. The better to understand their mechanics and how force applies to them.
What I do like is his refernce to Newton's 3 Laws of Motion,
"All things belong to one of three kingdoms and you have the evidence before you. "
What people have either missed or over looked is his drawings. His writings are worthless without them. I will give an example of why.
"These come in pairs, such that, as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places"
http://factumpoetica.org/ap-xliii/ (http://factumpoetica.org/ap-xliii/)
This sounds like 2 weights working together as it should. But it is the manner in which they work that is revealing and is most important.
If you look at Mt 25, it seems to be the first bread crumb (Hansel & Gretel, a German fairy tale which might have originated in the 1300's). This is because he shows one weight dropping while another is lifted ( http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_025.gif (http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Mt_025.gif) ). But as has been mentioned by many, it wouldn't work. My, aren't they the observant ones :o
With Mt 25, what someone would look for is the over balance being caused by the weight that was near the axle being lifted. But then, the weights do not swap places. Something seems to be wrong, but as bessler mentioned, no single illustration will give the motion or make it known.
With mt 26 (it does seem that John Collins did a pretty decent job of grouping the pictures :D ), you have weight wheels which ride in slots. These weight wheels move fromnear the axle to a position of over balance. He does say there is a problem with this. it could be that levers that cause them to move are missing. Such a motion would be simlar to mt 25 it does seem.
What does need to be mentioned is that the weight wheels in Mt 26 run in channel E.
In Mt 27, E is placed on the outside of the wheel with no reference made to them. Rather odd wouldn't you think ?
But there is this from Apologia Poetica "A wheel appears - is it really a wheel, for it does not have a normal rim. "
While I have always tried to understand what manner of vessel could hold the water or fluid that was pumped, that is the answer. it seems the rim itself was both a pump and a tube. And as one part of the rim moved into it's seat, it acted as a pump.
I, that is myself need no further proof to bessler's intelligence and for wanting of proof to his accomplishment. I have tried being clever in devising different ways of constructing a tube but it seems he did give the answer. just as blood vessels pump blood in the body, so to does his fluid run in his rim. The guy was smart people, you skeptics need to learn to keep an open mind, after all, I've been compared to a born again Christian when talking about Bessler, just not sure why. His wheel was and one day will be the marvelous invention that he built and did enjoy writing about just as I am doing now.
But for myself and people like Christo, EM and all the others who like Bessler and his work, it will be a good day when we can witness Bessler's work realized and Bessler recieving credit for his accomplishment.
At all, not exactly a Eureka moment for me but I am feeling good , d@mn, not an emoticon to illustrate with.
@Christo, there is much to Bessler's drawings where they are like a tangled web, but once someone learns to understand how they show Bessler's wheel, they become more like a kaleidoscope of his work.
Johnny
edited to add; Christo, could you post this last post of mine in besslerwheel dot com. I would appreciate it. Not sure if the picture would help as it would possibly need to be redrawn to show how it might have looked, your call.
@All, the weights that trade places are on opposite sides of the wheel. In his writings, he mentioned they later trade places. And as the drawing I posted earlier shows, the one moving upwards falls onto the hub and it's opposing weight is on the out side of the wheel. And when the wheel rotates 180 degrees (180 degrees later), they trade places.
Man, I am loving this :) ;) :)
edited to add pic; fyi, the water would be in the outer rim. the lift of the moveable part could be as little as 1/2 inch or 12.5 mm's. It would have a piece that fits into the slot of the outer part of the rim. Even with a movement of 1 in. or 2.5 cm's, still very workable. soft leather like with a bellows could have been used as a seal. and with Bessler being a skilled wood worked, the leather could have been between 2 pieces of wood so it would not interfere with the fuction of the wheel.
Needless to say, he would have needed to put a lot of work into building one of his wheels. a lot of work.
@Wilby, this is why there is no rush to get something built. to build an accurate replicate that would support his claims should be the first goal pursued when it comes to Bessler. After that, people will come up with their own variations on his work.
Johnny
Quote from: johnny874 on July 10, 2012, 12:51:37 PM
@Wilby, this is why there is no rush to get something built.
@johnnyboy... i'm not attempting to rush anyone to anything... why are you suggesting i was?
besides, the fat lady is gonna sing... remember? christo has a design he hasn't built yet, but he's sure it will work. and... obviously, he’ll want to present us with concrete proof of perpetual motion, so i expect he’s going to have to check that his machine really does run forever first. this takes time
- .
so yeah... ::) there's no rush at all.
[* specifically, an infinite amount of it.]
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 10, 2012, 03:27:35 PM
@johnnyboy... i'm not attempting to rush anyone to anything... why are you suggesting i was?
besides, the fat lady is gonna sing... remember? christo has a design he hasn't built yet, but he's sure it will work. and... obviously, he’ll want to present us with concrete proof of perpetual motion, so i expect he’s going to have to check that his machine really does run forever first. this takes time- .
so yeah... ::) there's no rush at all.
[* specifically, an infinite amount of it.]
>> johnnyboy... i'm not attempting to rush anyone to anything... why are you suggesting i was ? <<
Maybe your repeated questioning of why we haven't built one yet.
edited to add; @Everyone else besides Wilby, I do have a hypotheses of what sulphur, salt and mercury
are for. It may be very difficult to buy mercury. So, with a working wheel, someone with access to mercury might try this. But by combining sulphur, salt and mercury, a bearing and it's journal. The journal would be on the axle of the wheel and the bearing of course would be under neath it or around it.
By using wood molds and wax, it's possible that Bessler might have poured his own bearings. he did say without
those 3 elements, his wheel wouldn't work. With silver fillings, the silver is in powder form and is mixed with mercury. With this in mind, do have to wonder if the salt helped to keep the sulpur in a more excited state, in this instance, it would be so that the mixture more was slippery like a bearing would need to be.
And anyone who has had cavaties knows how well those types of fillings work and how durable they are.
Hope this isn't to much at once for everyone but for me, it is the culmination of a few years of building.
p.s. I have rebushed bearings before and have helped to pour them. By the way, they did have lathes in Bessler's day and being a wood worker, he might have taken the time to make some quality journals for his shafts. The bearings would have needed only be slightly larger in diameter, less than 1/2 the width of a hair. And pouring the bearing hot, when it cooled it could have gained the necessary clearance. just maybe. If so, his wheel and what he knew that he put into would have been something for someone who likes engineering.
Quote from: johnny874 on July 10, 2012, 04:24:20 PM
>> johnnyboy... i'm not attempting to rush anyone to anything... why are you suggesting i was ? <<
Maybe your repeated questioning of why we haven't built one yet.
my "repeated questioning" is because you keep posting math as if it demonstrates the feasibility of this wheel. it's because you commit logical fallacies like appeals to authority with your comments about leibniz... who never even witnessed bessler's wheel. and it's really more of a rhetorical question... :P
do you even know how andreas gärtner replicated bessler's 'locked room' hoax? do you even know what other bessler 'successes' he replicated and demonstrated to be trickery? don't you think you maybe should?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 10, 2012, 04:34:10 PM
my "repeated questioning" is because you keep posting math as if it demonstrates the feasibility of this wheel. it's because you commit logical fallacies like appeals to authority with your comments about leibniz... who never even witnessed bessler's wheel. and it's really more of a rhetorical question... :P
do you even know how andreas gärtner replicated bessler's 'locked room' hoax? do you even know what other bessler 'successes' he replicated and demonstrated to be trickery? don't you think you maybe should?
here is a link to some eyewitness accounts. The people listed and enough are scholars whose "support" would disagree with a maid who probably could have cared less about Bessler.
As to most of what you say, it is meaningless. Like I said, you are a troll. You keep wanting people to prove things to you like you are some kind of expert. You're not. I haven't seen where you know anything about mechanical engineering but keep wanting to be recognized on an authority on something when you are nothing more but a lost little boy. You should get a clue.
Bessler's wheel doesn't violate the laws of physics and no laws in physics needs to be changed. Just because he was smarter than you is a good reason for you to try and run down any attempt by anyone to explain how he accomplished hiw work and to try and get something built to demonstrate Bessler's claims are valid.
The only thing a working wheel would do as far as you are concerned is leave you alone by yourself for being such a jerk.
by the way Wilby, this is supposed to be a research forum according to Stefan. It's his forum and if he doesn't mind people trying to understand and get built a part of 18th Century German History, I am not sure why you have a problem with it. Maybe you should take it up with Stefan ?
And here is a mathematician, inventor and someone who also co-invented calculus of which some of his examples are still used in Universities today. Get a clue or get lost please, your jealousy and whatever it is for being found to be wrong has gotten old.
Gottfried Leibniz (1646 - 1716) Mathematician and Philosopher
Viewed the one-directional wheel in 1714
"Orffyreus is a friend of mine, and he allowed me, some time ago, to carry out some experiments with his machine. It ran continuously for two hours in my presence and demonstrated considerable power. There is something extraordinary about Orffyreus' machine and we must not ignore it, because it could bring tremendous benefits."
http://besslerwheel.com/accounts.html (http://besslerwheel.com/accounts.html)
Johnny
@All, Wilby is trying to bury Bessler in his ignorance. He is hoping that his repeated posting and ignoring engineering standards which are accepted will prevent any understanding of how Bessler's wheel worked from becoming known. basically, he hopes to bury itin the manure he is posting, but even so, manure can make for good fertilizer ;D
again with the logical fallacies... ::)
so how is a mathematician and philosopher suddenly an expert on mechanical engineering?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 10, 2012, 05:07:55 PM
again with the logical fallacies... ::)
so how is a mathematician and philosopher suddenly an expert on mechanical engineering?
Wilby,
You really are lost, aren't you ? He was a contemporary of Newton's. he is also called the Father of Modern Science.
You know, Brown, Planck, Heisenberg, Einstein, et al ? You are aware of this, aren't you ?
It was his observation that a mass in motion had more energy than f =ma which is how he discovered vis viva. This lead to mv^2 and was a break from classical physics, ie. Newton.
because of his place in the scholarly community, he had a great deal to lose by supporting a fraud. Another link to Leibniz folks. Sometimes, it does help to understand the times a person lived in to understand their work .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz)
With Bessler, he was 7 years old when Newton wrote his the Principia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica) ) which young Bessler was most likely exposed to.
by the way Wilby, you don't seem to know much about mechanical engineering yourself yet wish to say that pumping water violates the laws of physics. But with 2 quick of a pace, people might not have time to understand what was involved with Bessler's wheel. myself, i think you're missing a good deal of it yourself because while you have many questions, you don't take time to consider the answers. Why not accept that you are wrong and let those of us who want to discuss Bessler's work do so ?
One last word about Leibniz, he is a famous mathematician. I think his observation is credible.
Johnny
Quote from: johnny874 on July 10, 2012, 05:22:19 PM
Wilby,
You really are lost, aren't you ? He was a contemporary of Newton's. he is also called the Father of Modern Science.
You know, Brown, Planck, Heisenberg, Einstein, et al ? You are aware of this, aren't you ?
It was his observation that a mass in motion had more energy than f =ma which is how he discovered vis viva. This lead to mv^2 and was abreak from classical physics, ie. Newton.
because of his place in the scholarly community, he had a great deal to lose by supporting a fraud. Another link to Leibniz folks. Sometimes, it does help to understand the times a person lived in to understand their work.
With bessler, he was 7 years old when newton wrote his the Principia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica) ) which young Bessler was most likely exposed to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Wilhelm_Leibniz)
by the way Wilby, you don't seem to know much about mechanical engineering yourself yet wish to say that pumping water violates the laws of physics. But with 2 quick of a pace, people might not have time to understand what was involved with Bessler's wheel. myself, i think you're missing a good deal of it yourself because while you have many questions, you don't take time to consider the answers. Why not accept that you are wrong and let those of us who want to discuss Bessler's work do so ?
One last word about Leibniz, he is a famous mathematician. I think his observation is credible.
Johnny
LOL yeah... ::) i know who leibniz is. i just wanted to see how far you are willing to go to sell your fallacy.
one last time for the cheap seats... the writings and opinions of leibniz are no more relevant to the authenticity of bessler's claim than the bible is relevant to the authenticity of gawd... which is exactly why you have been compared to christians. ::)
and i didn't say anything about pumping water violating the laws of physics... ::) i said perpetual motion gravity wheels using weights violate the laws of physics. don't post lies about what i have said.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 10, 2012, 04:34:10 PM
my "repeated questioning" is because you keep posting math as if it demonstrates the feasibility of this wheel. it's because you commit logical fallacies like appeals to authority with your comments about leibniz... who never even witnessed bessler's wheel. and it's really more of a rhetorical question... :P
do you even know how andreas gärtner replicated bessler's 'locked room' hoax? do you even know what other bessler 'successes' he replicated and demonstrated to be trickery? don't you think you maybe should?
>> my "repeated questioning" is because you keep posting math as if it demonstrates the feasibility of this wheel <<
It does show the feasability of his wheel. When pendulums swing, their fuclrums have the torque equal to mdv or mass times distance times velocity. This torque which is not used is wholly capapble of performing work.
This is why it is called FREE ENERGY. If this principle is used to jack up a car, it is called hydraulics.
With my hydraulic floor jack, I can lift 4,000 lbs. or 2 tons. I am simply not that strong. the same principle is used in Bessler's wheel. A weighted lever can move or pump a fluid with more weight a greater distance than it moves. This violated the contemporary work = mass times distance or w =md. This is because a liquid can be displaced. Because of this, a 2 lb. (1kg) weight can drop 10 inches (25 cm's) and pump a fluid weighing 4 lbs. (2kg's) up to a height of 10 inches (25 cm's).
I think once people understand this is where the laws of physcis get violated, then they'll start understanding how special bessler's wheel really is. It's just that no one has thought of using a fluid to achieve over unity but it is wholly possible.
Johnny
edited to add; Wilby, if a lever 11.54 inches long dropped from 15 degrees above the fulcrum to 15 degrees belwo it, it would drop 10 inches. With a 2 lb. weight, it would develop almost 2 ft. lbs. of force. @ 23 inches and a 10 inch drop, it would have almost 4 ft. lbs. of force. This is without inertia increasing it's potential.
Still, with classical mechanics, they would say that equal motion would be required and that would mean that the weight on the lever would have to drop the same distance as the the height gained by the weight being lifted.
edited to add; Wilby, like I said, your running of the mouth is old. You just make the vaguest statements and hope something you can hang your hat on hits. I think people like you who refuse to discuss anything should be BANNED.
I am going to ask Stefan if maybe he can talk to you.
Quote from: johnny874 on July 10, 2012, 05:34:04 PM
>> my "repeated questioning" is because you keep posting math as if it demonstrates the feasibility of this wheel <<
It does show the feasability of his wheel. When pendulums swing, their fuclrums have the torque equal to mdv or mass times distance times velocity. This torque which is not used is wholly capapble of performing work.
This is why it is called FREE ENERGY. If this principle is used to jack up a car, it is called hydraulics.
With my hydraulic floor jack, I can lift 4,000 lbs. or 2 tons. I am simply not that strong. the same principle is used in Bessler's wheel. A weighted lever can move or pump a fluid with more weight a greater distance than it moves. This violated the contemporary work = mass times distance or w =md. This is because a liquid can be displaced. Because of this, a 2 lb. (1kg) weight can drop 10 inches (25 cm's) and pump a fluid weighing 4 lbs. (2kg's) up to a height of 10 inches (25 cm's).
I think once people understand this is where the laws of physcis get violated, then they'll start understanding how special bessler's wheel really is. It's just that no one has thought of using a fluid to achieve over unity but it is wholly possible.
Johnny
oh gawd... ::) here we go again...
the principle of hydraulics is FREE ENERGY. ::) ok... so then it should be easy to build a working wheel...
WHERE IS IT?interestingly enough there is a way to use water to make a wheel turn with no 'apparent' input... that would also provide a considerable amount of torque in a wheel the size of bessler's.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 10, 2012, 05:39:54 PM
oh gawd... ::) here we go again...
the principle of hydraulics is FREE ENERGY. ::) ok... so then it should be easy to build a working wheel... WHERE IS IT?
Wilby,
I have sent a message to Hartiberlin (Stefan) about your conduct.
Johnny
Quote from: johnny874 on July 10, 2012, 05:52:11 PM
Wilby,
I have sent a message to Hartiberlin (Stefan) about your conduct.
Johnny
whatever... ::)
i'm curious about leibniz now though... i mean this is a guy who according to the wiki:
QuoteLeibniz made major contributions to physics and technology, and anticipated notions that surfaced much later in philosophy, probability theory, biology, medicine, geology, psychology, linguistics, and information science. He wrote works on philosophy, politics, law, ethics, theology, history, and philology. Leibniz's contributions to this vast array of subjects were scattered in various learned journals, in tens of thousands of letters
tens of THOUSANDS of letters... he designed wind-driven propellers and water pumps, mining machines to extract ore, hydraulic presses, lamps, submarines, clocks, etc. and yet all he wrote about bessler's amazing and world changing wheel was what amounts to a crappy 'celebrity endorsement'. ::)
seriously?
and why would bessler make his maid swear this oath?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on July 10, 2012, 06:08:28 PM
whatever... ::)
i'm curious about leibniz now though... i mean this is a guy who according to the wiki:tens of THOUSANDS of letters... he designed wind-driven propellers and water pumps, mining machines to extract ore, hydraulic presses, lamps, submarines, clocks, etc. and yet all he wrote about bessler's amazing and world changing wheel was what amounts to a crappy 'celebrity endorsement'. ::)
seriously?
and why would bessler make his maid swear this oath?
Wilby,
you have consistently shown that you have no understanding of engineering. Why do you bother ?
Johnny
@All, I have asked Christo if he might post some of this in besslerwheel dot com.
Children play among the pillars
with loud heavy clubs.
Acrobats and shadow-boxers
are as swift and nimble as the wind.
I believe these statements refer to the childs toy which is 2 men with pick axes. When one swings down, the other swings away. And like acrobats, the weights flip from the outer part of the wheel to the hub where it makes a loud noise.
Johnny
edited to add; Wilby, you should change your name. If you knew history, you would know that the Romans only wrote about 2 sentences about Jesus if that much.
@all,
I think this is when we start using Occams Razor. This means that a ximple answer is most likely correct.
I have read some of Besslers writings on bw dot com. In the DT, he was describing the 12 foot wheel at Kassel with the mechanics of Mt 20.
Johnny
@All,
This is something I posted in the other forum. it's basically how bessler's unique rim worked.
When I started thinking about it, I liked the idea that much more. The reason for this is the
sides of the rim give support to keep the rim round. This is important because any
distortion of the rim could result in catastrophic leakage keeping the wheel from working.
What might be possible to save on weight is to remove wood on the outer part of the wheel
essentially leaving support ribs going around the wheel. I think this is something that when
built everyone would understand.
And with the leather tube being "inlaid" into the rim, it creates a seal while maintaing the
tube's position in the rim. With the seal, the boards on the left and right would create the seal
by pinching the leather together.
Wood pegs would hold the boards above the lether attached to the boards beneath it. Wooden
pegs would be used to hold everything together. When they have hot warm water poured on
them, they will absorb the water and expand. This is an old timey fastener. And of course, when
the pump is in operation, the force would be in the direction of the seal. This would help to
maintain the integrity of the seal and it's components.
All I can say is Bessler was pretty smart. But then, like any good engineer, he found solutions
instead of problems.
by the way, the picture shows the pumps in their inner position. When they move outward, there
will be spaace between pump sections. It would take getting bessler's wheel built to see if it's
something to be concerned about.
Johnny
The problem with the water pump idea is that any water displaced by the moving weight is exactly the same as the movement of the weight.
So no matter how small you break the steps down, it's still the same and will not work.
lumen,
you got it half right. the water being movec would be about one half the movement of the weight. the other half of the movement of the weight would be realized in the rotation of the wheel.
Johnny
If I start another thread are you gonna do the same thing again or can you restrain your ME ME ME ME ME :'( ness ?
I never thought gravity wheels could work but the story of Bessler is quite convincing for a story. Then I found this simple design that must work and could possibly be how Bessler did it!
Christo,
Tell us what your thinking.
I will not bore anyone with what I'm thinking...I will SHOW the world what I am THINKING ! Where everyone else ( except for Bessler ) has failed I will succeed and we will see who has made a career out of failure and leading others into nothing . I will gladly publish the reasons Bessler attributed his success to God ( and not just simple mechanics or himself ). You will be able to either build or purchase this device . I still have not built anything but my understanding of the device is complete ... and I have most of the materials right here at home .
P.S. I'm just adding this for S&G . Because regardless of the giant brains over at BW forum , I being considered a newb and a troll myself will prove them all to be of inferior insight and/or intellect and in due time (less than ten years!) .
Kaine aka tasier79 @ BW forum wrote to johnny874 :
Dear troll
Although you believe you have some personal gift and understanding of Besslers wheel, let me assure you that you do not. Although your infantile attempts at solving this problem are expected from a beginner, most beginners wouldn't be delusional enough to believe that they alone have a unique understanding of gravity that defies the laws of physics.
Whatever your personal grievances you believe you have with certain well respected members of this forum exist only in your head. You are your own worst enemy.
Seek help
Yours Sincerely
Kaine
Me again: This is a typical "holier than thou and I'm a good judge " attitude expressed in various ways by nearly everyone on that forum . What they really hope for ( in their stale and desperate souls ) is that some newb WILL (because they are fresh out of ideas) come along and out of a need to fit in will dump the simple and ingenious design ( or at least some semblance of it ) into their laps . I really would much rather sleep with dogs and fleas than try to fit in with that group of guys . I encourage anyone to not even try , all of the top slots are taken by the most anal retentive persons one could imagine .
Quote from: lumen on July 14, 2012, 06:35:45 PM
I never thought gravity wheels could work but the story of Bessler is quite convincing for a story. Then I found this simple design that must work and could possibly be how Bessler did it!
Christo,
Tell us what your thinking.
lumen,
Am quite certian he was successful. One thing you'll find out about christo, he's a paper tiger, won't ever build or show anything.
This is something someone in bw posted; "James looks possible if a innertube approach was used on the outside of the wheel, all you would need to do is squeeze ".
That is the basic idea.
What Chris doesn't understand and why he's not building anything is it does take time to do a credible job to demonstrate someone else's work. he's got an axe to grind and I think it's with the world at large.
As I posted in bw, to demonstarte that bessler could have done as he claimed does make it necessary to build using similar materials to what he had available. This means that no platic can be used or other modern materials.
Here's a link to the thread Chris has refered to. It has a simple outline that wouldn't be to difficult for an experianced wood worker to build.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101516 (http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=101516)
@Chris, why don't you post your idea ? Then you would have somehting to be on about.
Jim
Quote from: christo4_99 on July 14, 2012, 07:34:23 PM
I will not bore anyone with what I'm thinking...I will SHOW the world what I am THINKING ! Where everyone else ( except for Bessler ) has failed I will succeed and we will see who has made a career out of failure and leading others into nothing . I will gladly publish the reasons Bessler attributed his success to God ( and not just simple mechanics or himself ). You will be able to either build or purchase this device . I still have not built anything but my understanding of the device is complete ... and I have most of the materials right here at home .
P.S. I'm just adding this for S&G . Because regardless of the giant brains over at BW forum , I being considered a newb and a troll myself will prove them all to be of inferior insight and/or intellect and in due time (less than ten years!) .
Kaine aka tasier79 @ BW forum wrote to johnny874 :
Dear troll
Although you believe you have some personal gift and understanding of Besslers wheel, let me assure you that you do not. Although your infantile attempts at solving this problem are expected from a beginner, most beginners wouldn't be delusional enough to believe that they alone have a unique understanding of gravity that defies the laws of physics.
Whatever your personal grievances you believe you have with certain well respected members of this forum exist only in your head. You are your own worst enemy.
Seek help
Yours Sincerely
Kaine
Me again: This is a typical "holier than thou and I'm a good judge " attitude expressed in various ways by nearly everyone on that forum . What they really hope for ( in their stale and desperate souls ) is that some newb WILL (because they are fresh out of ideas) come along and out of a need to fit in will dump the simple and ingenious design ( or at least some semblance of it ) into their laps . I really would much rather sleep with dogs and fleas than try to fit in with that group of guys . I encourage anyone to not even try , all of the top slots are taken by the most anal retentive persons one could imagine .
Christo,
If you notice, I didn't engage him any more than necessary. I think also where I showed Bessler's Apologia Poetica does describe different things in what I am pursuing, I have their attention. Unlike you, I have stated my case if that is what you would want to call it.
Your rants would do nothing but discredit Bessler and alternative energy.
@All, if you read some of the thread I posted a link to, you will see where i have referenced the Apologia Poetica and how it describes certain aspects of the design I have been working on. And as I posted, to demonstarte that bessler's claims are credible, I would need to do a period build which will take more time than if I were just trying to prove a point.
Jim
Whatever you say ...'sall good . :P
Quote from: johnny874 on July 15, 2012, 02:23:50 PM
Your rants would do nothing but discredit Bessler and alternative energy.
We'll see about that . Maybe Tasier79 was right about you . You think you have great and superior ideas . You think that you are a hero . You think you can trash talk everyone and promote your own ideas . Build something hero , then run your pie hole .
Quote from: christo4_99 on July 16, 2012, 10:17:54 AM
We'll see about that . Maybe Tasier79 was right about you . You think you have great and superior ideas . You think that you are a hero . You think you can trash talk everyone and promote your own ideas . Build something hero , then run your pie hole .
Christo,
here's a link to what I think is a very good idea. unfortunately you know I can't do anything until after I have surgery and have returned to work.
This idea came about when mscoffman posted a link to fundy.ca in a thread where I was discussing tidal generators.
See what happens when people take the time to discuss things ? Of course, with you, you are much like Alan.
@All, pg. 4, dated Tue. Jul 17th by james_arne. it's a very workable idea where buoyancy is used. This emans that the generator would not be dependenant on the tide and could deliver consistent power.
Jim
http://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5289&start=45 (http://besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5289&start=45)
@ Christo, lmao ;D
I don't KNOW anything about you except that maybe you trash talk EVERYONE . I don't feel the need to discuss my ideas with anyone because all the inspiration I or anyone could possibly require can be found in Bessler's writings . Why would I swim with little fish when there is such a big fish in the pond ?
Quote from: christo4_99 on July 17, 2012, 02:29:17 PM
I don't KNOW anything about you except that maybe you trash talk EVERYONE . I don't feel the need to discuss my ideas with anyone because all the inspiration I or anyone could possibly require can be found in Bessler's writings . Why would I swim with little fish when there is such a big fish in the pond ?
@all,
I apologize for earlier having said anything to Chris.
It seems we are not good enough to share with him his
endeavors which makes me wonder why he posts at all.
Jim
Quote from: johnny874 on July 17, 2012, 04:16:49 PM
@all,
I apologize for earlier having said anything to Chris.
It seems we are not good enough to share with him his
endeavors which makes me wonder why he posts at all.
Jim
It's because it's a challenge to me and something that I want for my own . When I was 19 I discovered something that had already been marketed but if it hadn't it could have changed my entire life .
Striving for this with my entire being , I do not want to share the process . Is that too much to ask ?
How unbelievably re-fucking-tarded, Jesus fucking Christ!
Quote from: Ghost on July 29, 2012, 07:52:33 AM
How unbelievably re-fucking-tarded, Jesus fucking Christ!
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/big-words-make-you-sound-smart-dont-they/ (http://www.dailywritingtips.com/big-words-make-you-sound-smart-dont-they/)
I have shared some ideas here and @ the BW forum . Go check those out . As luck would have it I'm banned again from the presence of those mental giants and/or mutually graduated experts of nothing .
Quote from: christo4_99 on July 29, 2012, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: Ghost on July 29, 2012, 07:52:33 AM
How unbelievably re-fucking-tarded, Jesus fucking Christ!
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/big-words-make-you-sound-smart-dont-they/ (http://www.dailywritingtips.com/big-words-make-you-sound-smart-dont-they/)
I have shared some ideas here and @ the BW forum . Go check those out . As luck would have it I'm banned again from the presence of those mental giants and/or mutually graduated experts of nothing .
which word did you have trouble understanding? ::)
Let me know when it can run at least a 100 amp generator loaded down. If it cant do that its not really a viable energy source to me.
When you can be held accountable for your big mouths and your internet bravado then I'll be accountable to you in return .
Quote from: christo4_99 on July 29, 2012, 01:07:07 AM
It's because it's a challenge to me and something that I want for my own . When I was 19 I discovered something that had already been marketed but if it hadn't it could have changed my entire life .
Striving for this with my entire being , I do not want to share the process . Is that too much to ask ?
>> I do not want to share the process . Is that too much to ask ? <<
An
Internet forum, or
message board, is an online (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online) discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
Quote from: Ghost on July 29, 2012, 07:52:33 AM
How unbelievably re-fucking-tarded, Jesus fucking Christ!
LMAO ! Of course, I know you're actually imploring the Lord to find Christo's 2 brain cells. I heard one got lost and the other went looking for it.
i was kinda hoping that you were on to something
as the silence seems to indicate that there will be no operatic ovation i have decided to speak on your behalf on the matter of solution
i have the correct design
my most recent post was directed in part at comments in this thread as this thread is a honeypot for those who find themselves seeking from scratch
perhapse i would have posted in this thread if it had not already degenerated as threads so often do
i suppose if i had an abundance of time and no solution i might also fall to such interpersonal banter as a low form of entertainment
no disrespect for hillbillys
it was a hillbilly friend of mine who happened to recall that his grandfather had operated a 'buzzsaw' gravity wheel for more than 60 years in the east of TN
though he was a child at the time, the stern warning he received was simply to point out that if he got caught in it there would be nothing that could be done until it had wound down
for 60 years it was used to mill lumber without the need for fuel
i can describe its operation as well thanks in large part to his detailed descriptions of the sounds and rythems it produced
and also his description of the other spring and its lever
and his decriptions of the use of the springs that optionaly were attached to the outside of the weights
and the many comments his father and grandfather had made about its use
turns out, as solutions go.. when it rains, it pours...
(the two wheels his late grandfather has sitting in a shed are newer and more efficient designs than the 1909 one that has appeared in photographs on the web)
in the 1980s, after years of use, it eventually distorted the resting shape of the spring to the point that it would jam too frequently to be of use
and in the interest of privacy on the matter.. (as he realized that these had been removed from the public during the dark days of the depression [the one in the 1930s.. not the one going on now]) he chose to purchase a gas powered motor to replace it instead of attempting to approach 'city slickers' to repair it
he was never happy with the poweroutput of the gas powered motor
no wonder.. compressed gas does not transfer mechanical energy efficiently
thanks to his detailed information i have a decent handle on what goes on inside this second more powerful form of so called perpetual motion.. (neither design is truly perpetual.. both depend on a spring to store energy)
but consider; this device was produced and developed and eventually removed from public view
and there in lies what may perhaps be a warning
and if one is to consider the posibility of an unanounced threat; one of the more decent clues that can be considered when attempting to gauge the nature of those who are responsible for such removals is the dates at which the various pattent offices began rejecting devices on the grounds that they purported to be PM
if there be any grain of truth to any so called 'conspiracy theory' the idea of caution here is no simple matter of paranoia. getting full comprehension of the truth on such matters may be a seperate field of study yet still be foundationaly related.
but back to the main point.. the bessler wheel is 'childhood toy' simple
for me it is a bit reminiscent of seeing a room full of people struggle with a chinese puzzle only to unanimously declare that it can not be done
my most recent post was made in a thread that can at least claim to have retained civility in the exchange of information;
http://www.overunity.com/558/bessler-wheel-design/ (http://www.overunity.com/558/bessler-wheel-design/)
seriously.. i solved this years ago
also years ago, i posted this fact
if you are really here to discuss the correct design for this device
why have i not heard from you?
@Circle
Any chance you have or can acquire a photo of those 2 wheels? Or can you get any information regarding the cradle the wheels sat in?
In your February 02, 2013, 07:26:18 AM post, you mentioned that MT21 is only one layer. Your mention of the Buzzsaw here as a solution seems to suggest that it must be another layer. Can you elaborate further on the connection?
@ circle enlighten me....How do the springs function? How is the energy stored and reused? Also when stored is all the weight pressure absorbed by the spring negating it out?
Here are two ideas I drew real quick. They are on axles though I did not draw them. The translucent area is just the path. The ramps are white. There is only one weight per slot. I just added more to see placement. Most likely won't work, and I don't care to build it but....I do feel springs, centripetal force, and maybe water buoyancy, hold the key.
Quote from: zoelra on February 04, 2013, 01:26:34 PM
@Circle
Any chance you have or can acquire a photo of those 2 wheels? Or can you get any information regarding the cradle the wheels sat in?
In your February 02, 2013, 07:26:18 AM post, you mentioned that MT21 is only one layer. Your mention of the Buzzsaw here as a solution seems to suggest that it must be another layer. Can you elaborate further on the connection?
no chance for a photo at present
and at the moment i have not heard from the old hillbilly friend for some time now..
if he comes around i will ask for detail on items i see here
untill then all accounts of his that i post here can only be shown to have the legal status of hearsay
i may not have been specific enough when asking about the structure it rested upon or more accuratly he may not have been clear in explaining the detail of it but i was told it was moved to whichever site to mill wood as needed if that helps
there is no relation between the two wheels
this newer one uses a single large powerful coil spring and is effectively a selfwinding device
the bessler wheel has as many springs as it has pairs of weights
it really would take very few words to express the function clearly
i am still avoiding doing that
i explained the device to a person who happens to be employed by the united states government as a physicist
in less than two minutes with few words and perhaps as many hand gestures to indicate position etc. i was told emphaticaly that i 'really should do something with this!!'
this message board may not be the penacle of media exposure and it may also not be the greatest meeting place for the movers and shakers of the world but all the same
i am throwing this claim out here for all to see and react to ..hardly seems to amount to 'doing something' with it though.. ..we will see who responds to the admittedely incredulous claim
if you want my input toward that device send me in private some general idea of what you are doing and i will try to contribute usefully
I'm bored.... If you explain it well enough I'll draw it in sketch up, and post. See others can see it to understand...
@Circle
Was your hillbilly friend the grandson of the inventor or a grandson of a person that worked at the farm and helped operate the device and saw mill?
This?
http://home.roadrunner.com/~sccinfo/asawheel.htm (http://home.roadrunner.com/~sccinfo/asawheel.htm)
http://www.keelynet.com/jackpmm/jackpmm.htm (http://www.keelynet.com/jackpmm/jackpmm.htm)
B
@Bob
If you are referring to the wheel, Circle is talking about the Buzzsaw Gravity Wheel (aka Keenie Wheel), or at least another revision by the same inventor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozcd12QTNrw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozcd12QTNrw)
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel)
@Circle (in case you missed my previous post)
Was your hillbilly friend the grandson of the inventor or a grandson of a person that worked at the farm and helped operate the device and saw mill?
to the best of my knowledge there is no relation
the family i am refering to was already dug in deep into the hills long before either the hatfields or mccoys arrived
if the old stories in that family are accurate they had a hand in putting an invading british colonel in his grave and also in setting up a root beer outfit in 1919
this last was done to gain a method of bringing such things as sugar, corn, and copper tubbing into the area without having to travel down from the hills and into town for it
that root beer outfit is still around and mentions the 1919 date on its label
while tall tales can sometimes prove to be founded on little, the fact is this friend of mine produced these detailed personal accounts moments after i showed him the pic of the 'buzzsaw' wheel
i had known him for 20+ years at the time.. and he had never bothered to mention this..
his accounts included all that i had found in the posted information and lots more
it was 2009 and i was actually filling him in on the fact that i had made a post on this website about the device i had 'solved' as i showed him that image
although my friend may be a bit out of touch with his roots, there is no question his grandfather was a man of means and uncommon knowledge
one of the old tales told to me about him was of a time when the sheriff arrived to inquire about one of his sons.. who had seen fit to let himself out of the county jail
the old granpa lit with his cigar then tossed a stick of dynamite under the sheriffs car and said "way i recon it.. you'uns gots about 30 secont ta get'on out'a here"
..was plenty of time for him to walk over and pull the lit cord out of the stick after they left
this sounds not much different from the way they have reportedly dealt with 'revenuers'
from what i have heard, it would be ill advised to wander up into the hills uninvited
but hey.. it's all hearsay.. do your own investigation
I find it extremely unlikely that two individuals could have invented gravity wheels at almost the same time, and of the same design.
So either your hillbilly friend is related to the original inventor (who was a descendent of Bessler), was related to someone that worked for the inventor, or was related to someone that ripped off the idea from the inventor.
Quote from: ace569er on February 05, 2013, 02:21:17 AM
I'm bored.... If you explain it well enough I'll draw it in sketch up, and post. See others can see it to understand...
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel)
(http://peswiki.com/images/c/c6/BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel_-_Small_Front.jpg) (http://peswiki.com/images/c/c6/BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel_-_Small_Front.jpg)
my blog; http://bessler2011.blogspot.com/ (http://bessler2011.blogspot.com/)
I am considered a fraud because I am taking my time to build and am showing my work.
Something not supported by moderators. But all tooling does need to be designed so that
they will work properly. Other wise, it would be a poor qaulity build and a waste of my time.
Someone has posted (Koenl,http://www.overunity.com/558/bessler-wheel-design/ ) a design similar to Mt 21. While such a design would seem to have no advantage, when the weighted lever moves past top center, it is generating torque at it's fulcrum.
It is this wasted potential that could allow for a perpetual wheel to work. This would be by using the mechanics found in Mt 20. And since the wheel and it's levers are in a perpetual state of balance, then the work being performed by the swinging weight would not allow a wheel to reach an equilibrium within itself.
Thought I would mention that I because of the harassment I have had to tolerate am showing less of my work.
The more credible people in this forum believe it is such a simple idea that I should have already finsihed it. And
if I make to much of my work known, then anyone could build one without having to do to much work. After all,
the build process would be known and of course would seem obvious.
And one thing I mentioned to rlortie and memebers of his Arreche build group is that what is shown of the buzz saw is engineered wrong. The outer wheel would need more slots than the inner wheel but doubt such a design could work.
The reason being that the inner wheel would have to be geared to have the same movement as the outer wheel. By this I mean if the outer wheel rotates 90 degrees and the inner wheel rotates 180 degrees, it would need to bea t a 2:1 ratio and the outer weight would be twice as far out as the inner weight.
@All,
I have to say this can not work other wise I would be expected to build it.
Using a 1 meter diameter, then weight locations A, B and C are 50 cm's from ceneter.
What needs to be remebered is that Pi2R = circumfrence. In this example, 1 m x 3.142
equals 3.142 meters and the inner weight locations have a circumfrence of 1.57 meters.
This needs to be understood because of w = md or work equals mass times distance.
To illustrate this, if weight B moves 3.142/8 or rotates for 45 degrees, it travels 39 cm's.
The corresponding movement of weight B1 is .5Pi/4 or 90 degrees and it also travels
39 cm's. What everyone might be missing is that weight B moves from a perpindicular distance to gravity
of 70.7*1m/2 or about 35 cm's to 50 cm's from center.
in the mean time, weight B1 moves a perpindicular distance to gravity of 25 cm's to 0 cm's. The force calculations would have
vastly different answers. This is because weight B is never closer to the center of the wheel than 35 centimeters while weight B1 moves from a distance of 25 cm's from center to directly above it.
if you consider the movement of weights A and A1, A1 is starting at bottom center while weight A is at 45 degrees. Weight A will always have more force than weight A1 until they are both level with the axle and perpindicular to gravity. This is the only time that 2 opposing weights would have equal force, at all other times, weights A, B and C should have more force.
Also, with a 6 weighted wheel, as shown, weights A and B would have more force than weights A1 and B1. And while they are causing the wheel tor otate, weights C and C1 would be rolling on ramps to switch their positions as inner and outer weights allowing the cycle to continue.
Still, prefer Bessler's water wheel, not only would it have fluid motion but hopefully it would run like a clock or at the least it would slink as a cat does.
Jim
thought I would mention that for the ramps, and angle of about 3 degrees should be plenty as some potential would be lost because of this. it might be possible to have flat ramps and use the weights own momentum to allow them to move themselves. You know, force equals mass times velocity and since the weights would be in motion, they should have some momentum.
If so, then the only loss of potential would be the little lost due to using something like roller bearings which should be less than 1% and maybe less than .5% of the over balance that may or may not be possible with a design like this.
Myself, I say it will not work. This means I am not required to build it.
Quote from: zoelra on February 06, 2013, 08:42:13 AM
I find it extremely unlikely that two individuals could have invented gravity wheels at almost the same time, and of the same design.
So either your hillbilly friend is related to the original inventor (who was a descendent of Bessler), was related to someone that worked for the inventor, or was related to someone that ripped off the idea from the inventor.
i think my friend will get a nice chuckle when i let him know that those are his only options.. right there in the bulletpoints..
- his family is either related to bessler because you said so...
- or his family was related to some itenerant worker because you said so..
- or his family is related to a thief.. on your authority and judgment
if you are not too mentaly worn out after making such an athletic minor league conclusion jump..
i would suggest that you may be missing several chapters in the devices history
seems there were quite a few who had the wheels and across an area many states wide
the posibility that the device went into production and saw limited distribution never seems to have been permited as considerable in your view
but by the accounts i was told.. his great grandfather had secured the first device by purchase between 1911 and 1917 and the second within a decade after that
..additionaly was told that both appeared more 'modern' than the one commonly seen on the web
i sent you some info about it
only point i would readdress is the order of events as the weights exchange
if we let gravity do its work.. the lower weight drops first and it is its weight that would then trigger the next hammering discharge of the coil
i see you commeted about my posting of the pages of besslers book as potentialy 'pissing people off and wasting space'
<how could anything posted compare to the annoyance of the cheap way this site is tagged with adds for pay per click monitization?>
some people will look at something they could easliy interpret and choose not to make any effort to discern what it means on the premise that they do not know the language
not much sence bothering with them.
for some other persons, however, having the pages posted for easy reference might be of some use
for example.. when i said i turned to those who had seen the device.. you dont even need to be able to read much german or latin to understand the page that has their names and credentials
and armed with names and titles etc one can begin in ernest to discern what marks the persons left on history.. and it is their obscure biographies that did me all the good, even if not for spelling out the solution, but for putting it into context
in truth though i was only posting it to keep myself present high on the list of recent posts
i can see that it would make more sence to simply post in my first thread to generate some awareness of my claim.
notice i still have done very little to push my claim into the limelight
if someone has an interest in this device they will dig deep and in so doing they may find my posts
i have the correct design
now.. how to procede?
.
was wrong nvm
\
Circle said (to my previous post)
i think my friend will get a nice chuckle when i let him know that those are his only options.. right there in the bulletpoints..
- his family is either related to bessler because you said so...
- or his family was related to some itenerant worker because you said so..
- or his family is related to a thief.. on your authority and judgment
if you are not too mentaly worn out after making such an athletic minor league conclusion jump..
i would suggest that you may be missing several chapters in the devices history
Well I clearly stepped in that one. :-[ I sent my apologies to Circle via PM.
I did not consider there could be other wheels/inventors in existence, or that the original inventor would have allowed the secret to get out, or potentially sell or share it openly. If it did happen, you would expect this to be documented in all sorts of local news sources of the day, and with all the PM researchers out there looking for any scrap of information, you would think that some mention of it would have been found by now. However, considering the time and the rural locations, there may not have been much if anything written about the wheels. The only proof of the wheels existence probably lies in the memories of those that witnessed them and are of course still alive. For those business men who saw the wheels potential and affect it could have on their future profits, it would not have taken much to quietly buy them up. If you don't think business think this way, do you know that GM bought up and eliminated most of the inner city train lines to promote (or force) the purchase of their automobiles.
There may not be any future in patenting, producing and selling these gravity wheels. It may just be too risky at this time. What it will likely take is an ever growing army of citizens with wheels powering their own homes. You can't keep that quiet.
Quote from: christo4_99 on June 28, 2012, 06:38:25 AM
:'( Yes , fellas . It's all over but the crying and the mountains of bullshit opinions (and websites ) to lay waste . The Bessler wheel has been found by yours truly . I don't care who you are it won't do you any good to argue with the truth . Those who will congratulation are in order , those who won't forget ya you hater ! Just exercising my BRAGGING RIGHTS (RALPH!) . I'd like to thank some of you guys for being human ... and understanding that a fella can get a little full of himself for no good reason at times...it's just that this is not one of those TIMES ! To many of you it may seem a little strange that a "scientific" discovery is being announced in such a "trailer park" fashion for which I don't really apologize !
I have read every single posting you ever wrote on this forum.
I still don't hear the fat lady singing.
::)
@onthecuttingedge2005
Chris has never been one to share critical details (and who really does for that matter). He has a way with words for sure, but he also has an acute mind in this area and he is highly motivated. Some of the greatest minds in the world lived during Bessler's day and yet none of them were able to come up with a solution. It was Bessler, so don't be so quick to count Chris out.
bessler's time? I laugh at it, Bessler was an idiot in today's standard. but i get what your saying, he's still an idiot. if he was a savant i might give grace but he is not.
Quote from: zoelra on February 08, 2013, 10:20:57 AM
@onthecuttingedge2005
Chris has never been one to share critical details (and who really does for that matter). He has a way with words for sure, but he also has an acute mind in this area and he is highly motivated. Some of the greatest minds in the world lived during Bessler's day and yet none of them were able to come up with a solution. It was Bessler, so don't be so quick to count Chris out.
Zoelra,
Myself, I think Chris just wants the attention. And as for the cuttingedge, maybe if you could understand Bessler's work you would think other wise but you can't and don't.
And Zoe, most people who have something do show their work.
Jim
Good to talk with you again Jim. I agree many people do discuss their ideas, as we have with the 2SO in the past, and of course as you appear to do (I say this because I don't know all the areas you are working in). But I think in general, most don't give out their inner most secrets, but I could be wrong. In the last few months I have seen a drop off in the serious discussions on BW, here, and on Collin's website. Not sure if everyone is getting tired, running out of ideas, or are close to a solution and don't want to discuss.
For those such as yourself who unselfishly share, a big thanks is in order, and I hope you are making progress towards the ultimate goal. I for one am concentrating on one of my OB wheel designs for the moment, but I can honestly say I'm not making much progress.
Quote from: zoelra on February 11, 2013, 12:16:04 PM
Good to talk with you again Jim. I agree many people do discuss their ideas, as we have with the 2SO in the past, and of course as you appear to do (I say this because I don't know all the areas you are working in). But I think in general, most don't give out their inner most secrets, but I could be wrong. In the last few months I have seen a drop off in the serious discussions on BW, here, and on Collin's website. Not sure if everyone is getting tired, running out of ideas, or are close to a solution and don't want to discuss.
For those such as yourself who unselfishly share, a big thanks is in order, and I hope you are making progress towards the ultimate goal. I for one am concentrating on one of my OB wheel designs for the moment, but I can honestly say I'm not making much progress.
Thanks so and nice to see you here.
I've been slowly working on it. I may know someone who is a skilled builder who might give it a try. If not, then even if I build only one section, the other 7 would be easy.
I think one problem everybody runs into is the details. Kind of why I'm going slow, I do need to get them right. And what I'm working on is what I've posted. I think sometimes it's difficult to communicate an idea to someone else. People just see things differently.
Jim
Quote from: johnny874 on February 11, 2013, 07:20:39 AM
Zoelra,
Myself, I think Chris just wants the attention. And as for the cuttingedge, maybe if you could understand Bessler's work you would think other wise but you can't and don't.
And Zoe, most people who have something do show their work.
Jim
it comes down to one thing, failure, why waste your time with it. 200 years of failure and everyone is still failing, are you hard headed learning that you should not put your hands on a burning stove and must test it your self? ???
only an intelligent switch/motor can get a gravity wheel to work and that in itself takes energy. it's useless and is wasting human time and resources.
if you follow this section of the forum you will have wasted spent hours where it counts the most, the greatest delivery of energy. I.E Nuclear, Fusion, Anti-Matter, these sources are the key to the future not your trivial Gravity wheel.
we and I express, we, have 4 billion years to get it right, you really think your gravity wheel is involved, lose it and you may save the human race from disgrace when our sun decides to destroy mother earth. time is money and lives here, you decide.
see, I don't think for just my generations, I think for all those who are born after me forever. may the human race survive and extend this though out the universe not just a planet who is going to die with assurance.
believe me, when science say this earth will die in 4 billion years it will happen.
Jerry 8)
Jerry,
Check out this link; http://www.iter.org/ (http://www.iter.org/)
Myself, with Bessler I can improve my own life while making his work known.
Not sure if I should thank God, but thanks to my hearing loss, I have had much time to spend learning
and I would like to think that time was better spent than just watching television.
Here is a basic drawing of what Bessler realized, that opposing weighted levers counter balanced each other.
Yet when one drops, it's movement is wasted energy.
What a Bessler wheel can do is help me to convince the U.S government to change it's polciy and allow for a hearing loss to be a ratable disability for U.S. Veteran's like myself and at the same time, it could serve as a source of energy for 3rd world countries who have no means to pump water or generate even a small amount of electricity.
Batteries die and in emergencies, a radio can be a life saver.
By the way, in the pic, if the lever has a 1 lb. weight 1 foot from the fulcrum, that would be 1 ft. lb. of torque being wasted. And if it's force is applioed at a 5 to 1 ratio, it becomes 5 ft. lbs. of torque that can pump water.
And if the water being pumped is less than one lb. which could rotate a 12 lb. wheel, not sure why it's not worth a try.
By the way, if you check out other web sites about the technology ITER is using, some have had it actually generating energy but at what is considered to dangerous of a level because of the temperatures.
Still, have schooling in what I am pursuing as far as Bessler is concerned which includes classes on design engineering as well as propulsion engineering. It let's me use some of what I've learned ;)
Well Jim it looks like you are wasting your time working on a gravity wheel.
Quote from: zoelra on February 14, 2013, 12:32:02 PM
Well Jim it looks like you are wasting your time working on a gravity wheel.
Seen this ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlx2PgESXhs
That is beyond impressive. Can you find more links? Not just videos, but anything to help rebuild it. So the blue prints can be made and spread, so it can be improved upon. Can this person be contacted? His knowledge can't be allowed to die with him.....hopefully he is willing to help make sure that it never happens. If a 3d printer layout of this machine could be made anyone could remake it to improve upon it. Plus it would spread fast. Someone semi local should try to work with him to spread the knowledge. This also needs it's own topic in my opinion.....
Quote from: ace569er on February 14, 2013, 08:54:10 PM
That is beyond impressive. Can you find more links? Not just videos, but anything to help rebuild it. So the blue prints can be made and spread, so it can be improved upon. Can this person be contacted? His knowledge can't be allowed to die with him.....hopefully he is willing to help make sure that it never happens. If a 3d printer layout of this machine could be made anyone could remake it to improve upon it. Plus it would spread fast. Someone semi local should try to work with him to spread the knowledge. This also needs it's own topic in my opinion.....
not so mutch more...but a good start :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q
Thank you. I'm trying to draw it up in sketchup. The first video was shown, all from the front & mostly, only, from the same angle. Making it very hard to draw out. I haven't watched the second one yet but thanks!
Can Stefan Hartmann tell us more ? Did he ever made a replica ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=sadl0Xl31JM&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkhGLi1DhJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD3yft0XKIw
@murmel
My comment "Well Jim it looks like you are wasting your time working on a gravity wheel" was just a little fun thrown at Jim (johnny874) based on what onthecuttingedge2005 previously said about wasting time working on a gravity wheel.
I don't think it is a waste of time.
If you guys really want to study a runner, look at this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozcd12QTNrw
And for some history.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel
This wheel (although missing some key parts) was created by a descendent of Bessler living in America.
Quote from: zoelra on February 15, 2013, 01:40:44 PM
@murmel
My comment "Well Jim it looks like you are wasting your time working on a gravity wheel" was just a little fun thrown at Jim (johnny874) based on what onthecuttingedge2005 previously said about wasting time working on a gravity wheel.
I don't think it is a waste of time.
If you guys really want to study a runner, look at this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozcd12QTNrw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozcd12QTNrw)
And for some history.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:BuzzSaw_Gravity_Wheel)
This wheel (although missing some key parts) was created by a descendent of Bessler living in America.
Zoelra,
They should see some of the harassment I've had to tolerate for working openly. Do believe I have an exceptional understanding of Bessler's work.
I'm one of those people where building a working wheel is not enough. If it were my original idea, then it would be different.
As things are, do believe I am going through the last of my medical problems. Have been attacked for those and one of those people actually say they recieve disability payments.
Still, in time I will build some wheels. You see, I have a muse. that is someone who, the definition; to turn something over in the mind meditatively and often inconclusively. This time there will be a conclusion. But first, I will need to do one build that can show where it resermbles one of Bessler's drawings. If not, then he might not receive credit for his work that he rightfully deserves.
And then when all is said and done, I'll have a really cool hobby. And one thing I have found out, even what seems to be a simple design can cost upwqards of $300.00 or more to build. And if specialty items are needed, the cost keeps going up.
Johnny874
p.s. In the early 1900's, the Wright bros. were in contact with Octave Chanute, and engineer who believed flying was possible.
Still, perpetual motion I think will never be what Aviation has become.
edited to add;
Octave Chanute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octave_Chanute)
"For some years I have been afflicted with the belief that flight is possible to man."
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/wrighthtml/wrightchan.html
:~)
this is what I have so far......about 2 hours in....This is a little more challenging than I thought....
@All,
Not sure why it took posting in a wood worker forum for me to realize what I have but it cid. Some of it might be in having seen what other people can do with it.
They have completed work to show.
And next weekend, the temperature will be close to 50 deg. (18 c.), warm enough to work outside. Glue won't hold properly if it's to cold.
Jim
here is about almost another hour in...
OK...I stuck on how the pendulums attach. Also the triangle spring tensions the ball hits to power them. Need some help or photos/videos of the bottom. Good enough so I can scale them. An even straight forward, without an angle, view would help, a lot too. If anyone has any replication work done for me to go on. Might help, a little as well.
ok after 5-6 hours I have all I can figure out without help.....Hope this inspires someone. Because I want this as a centerpiece for my game room, but it needs to run.....Though I can think of 6 mods to make it make power, if it runs and the ball has the extra force. I just want it, period.
Quote from: ace569er on February 17, 2013, 08:06:11 PM
ok after 5-6 hours I have all I can figure out without help.....Hope this inspires someone. Because I want this as a centerpiece for my game room, but it needs to run.....Though I can think of 6 mods to make it make power, if it runs and the ball has the extra force. I just want it, period.
the inventor said it won't run if you tap from it. do you have a clue.
Quote from: johnny874 on February 16, 2013, 11:57:19 PM
@All,
Not sure why it took posting in a wood worker forum for me to realize what I have but it cid. Some of it might be in having seen what other people can do with it.
They have completed work to show.
And next weekend, the temperature will be close to 50 deg. (18 c.), warm enough to work outside. Glue won't hold properly if it's to cold.
Jim
So Jim, is once again, going to build something,......someday...soon....you will see....
Well if you had a clue....lol. You know that to make the ball curve is resistance. Plus a little friction. To overcome it the force must be increased from zero. So mathematically the ball must take energy from the magnet to the wire to the pendulum to the springs ect. back to the ball. Meaning it's getting energy from the magnet to run. If any energy can be taken at all, than more can possibly be made to take. Also if there was no friction, resistance, ect. and something can start from a static position, then it would continue to increase in speed at that same rate, forever till it ripped it self apart. So to maintain a speed, if started from a static point. Friction & resistances like air, gravity, counter motion, pressure, or any of the others are taking that energy through energy transfer.
Mostly though, I see were things can be added, to better use. The transfer of energy, but to improve upon a design one must first master what he is improving. Also seeing things others miss, and improving upon designs is what I do for a living.
Plus like I said, this is something I just want. It is art. I don't give a care if it can or can not make power. If it could it would never be enough to truly matter anyway. To say it can not make more when it already makes something from nothing to move the ball, is foolish.
Here's a quote
An estimate of the power: If we assume the ball would come to a complete stop after 30 seconds with a starting velocity of 1 m/s without the magnets, the energy of the ball: E = 0.5 * m * V * V = 5 Joule would be spent.
Since P= E/t this gives a power loss along the track of P = 5 / 30 = 0.16 Watt.
This is well below Dr. Hal Puthoffs' '1 Watt Challenge'. BUT, the total ENERGY that the device has already produced is Etot = P * t , taking t = 1 month Etot = 0.16 * 2 592 000 s = 414 720 Joules
This is a VERY large amount of energy. There will be more info available in the near future.
Quote from: ace569er on February 17, 2013, 02:32:18 PM
OK...I stuck on how the pendulums attach. Also the triangle spring tensions the ball hits to power them. Need some help or photos/videos of the bottom. Good enough so I can scale them. An even straight forward, without an angle, view would help, a lot too. If anyone has any replication work done for me to go on. Might help, a little as well.
acer,
Stefan can ask the guy if this is how his set up works since he knows him. The steel bearing/ball only rolls around it's track and strikes nothing.
What would need to happen is when the magnet and steel bearing are attracted to each other, the steel bearing is pulled into the side of it's track. Because of this friction, it does not accelerate even though it has less mass/weight than the 3 pendulums that will be moving in opposition to this resistance. Another way of looking at this is if the tire of your car rubbed against the curb, it slows down, right ? Same thing here but the attraction from the magnet allows it to maintain a constant velocity.
Why this allows it to work is all 3 pendulums move in synchronicity. This allows the pendulums swing to tilt the spring in the center so that the springs motion lags behind the swing of the pendulums. If this were not so, the tilt of the track for the steel bearing would not always have the same tilt in front of it.
And this is an example of how a person can use Newton's 3rd Law of Motion to allow for a continuous movement. Magnetically powered devices are not considered perpetual. And if you missed the basic idea, resistance in the steel bearings movement allows the magnet to transfer kinetic force to 3 pendulums.
Any way, that's the science behind the machine.
And when Stefan asks the Norwegian guy, maybe he can show a video where the steel bearing moves slightly to the inside as it approaches the magnet. That would be the secret to how it generates force, resistance in the bearings movement translates into movement of the magnet.
Yeah I understand how it works. Drawing it only made it clearer. I want to know if there is a center pendulum, that I can not see. Stefan's 3rd & 13th vid helped me see how the pendulums attach. Overhead pics and knowing the outer ring's size. Helped to scale it an get all the angles needed. Sadly I found no true front views for height scaling.
I'm saying that it must create energy to work, because there is resistances, and friction to overcome. He uses the force of the magnets with out there counter forces. The design allows for that. I don't need to take the energy from the ball directly. A paddle wheel is not any of my ideas. I plan on useing the same force it already creates. Just enhance it more or less. There are several way to do that. Just look at the different ways it is already using. Plus I just want it!!!
If wanted power I'd design a ultra low head turbine. Using vortex, helix & a reverse Archimedes screw combination , for a 85% - 93% energy transfer. In my stream out back....or even a sterling parabolic solar array. Which is also very efficient . Also I sent the creator an Email yesterday with my designs to see what he thinks....Hopefully he responds....Thanks for the interest. I need weight and scale mainly.
Also if the fields of neos will work, than it may not be perpetual, but the magnets will outlive the devise, do to wear, & it's creator. So that equals a very long time, who cares if it's perpetual. Perpetual anything is imposable do to wear and decay alone. Not to mention soooo many others... I don't see why that phrase is even used. It confuses me. If it runs for 10 years, it will have out lived most machines made these days. Just high efficiency with minimal wear are the most one needs to seek, for that is all that is most likely possible.
:)
Quote from: ace569er on February 18, 2013, 01:07:00 AM
Well if you had a clue....lol. You know that to make the ball curve is resistance. Plus a little friction. To overcome it the force must be increased from zero. So mathematically the ball must take energy from the magnet to the wire to the pendulum to the springs ect. back to the ball. Meaning it's getting energy from the magnet to run.
Uh, actually the ball and track provides an opposing force to the magnet. Going along with Newton's 3rd law of Motion, F2 = -F1.
If you understood this, then you would know that because the ball continues to follow it's path at about the same velocity, the resistance the track provides is the opposing force to the magnet. ie., it doesn't allow the ball to react to the magnet but the magnet can react to the ball.
And the reason the ball moves at all is because it's track is tilting up behind it pushing the ball forward. If this didn't happen, then the ball would roll to quickly and then the timing of the magnets would be off.
Think I'll stick with Bessler ;D
There are 3 sets of 3 magnets on top. 2 pull the ball and move away as it passes. The first ball magnet is not at an opposite angle, they are parallel. So rubbing the rail is the counter force. Then it moves with kinetic energy to the field range of the horse shoe magnet, prior to the top magnet. On the way, it should have resistance from the rail. with no counter force but it own energy. Plus friction, which should slow it, but it does not. The creator's own words say that they don't receive the magnet counter forces because they move out of effective range as the ball passes. The third magnet is pulled down, which is the only magnet counter force you speak of. Then that magnet's tension is transferred to the center spring. Which I don't see were that motion goes unless there's a fourth pendulum?
The ball also sees resistance as it passes over the tension level connected to the angled weight, just right, of each, main, pendulum. The wire is 45 degrees from the magnet pulling it, and the ball hitting it. There's is were newton's law applies, the most. The wire and upper magnet take the energy and transfer it. That moves the pendulum & inner ring. Which even tilted at .002 is even more resistance, & FRICTION to curve the ball. To have the circle magnet pull it just before dropping out of range as the ball passes.
Even the creator asks were does the energy come from. Seance energy is lost to heat, when transferred. And energy is transferred 5 times per 120 degrees of rotation. Newton's third law does not over come, the second law of thermodynamics, which should stop the ball. Which is why all things that show Newton's third law. Come to a stop. I really did not feel like breaking it down like that......
I think you also need to have magnets in the bottom of the construction to move the pendulums in that yin , yang pattern...shown in one of the movies..
Possible. I have not been able to see the bottom, very well. I know the pendulums themselves have magnets on them. Still lost with the central spring. Were does that energy transfer go? The overhead magnet is only connected to the spring and following overhead magnet...
Quote from: ace569er on February 19, 2013, 10:00:31 AM
Possible. I have not been able to see the bottom, very well. I know the pendulums themselves have magnets on them. Still lost with the central spring. Were does that energy transfer go? The overhead magnet is only connected to the spring and following overhead magnet...
acer,
have taken a closer look at the thing. the central spring seems to only work with the magnets above the bearing.
There is a tab/spring the bearing rolls over which causes the pendulum to swing. Apparently the magnet on top is supposed to tilt the central spring in that direction. Then the swinging of the pendulums add a different torsion to control the tilt of the ebarings track.
It seems the pendulums are connected through non-local behavior. This simply means that as a horshoe magnet drops because the bearing just rolled over it's tab and that the next pendulum will swing in the opposite direction because it's effected by the magnet which seems to pull it down with it. Of course, if 2 pendulums are swing away from each other, does this increas3ed motion equal to sufficient force to tilt the bearing's track in that direction ?
What you should take a close look at is where the ebaring is on it's track while the 2 pendulums are swinging in opposite directions. The bearing is basically over one and rolling towards the other. Could be how the tilt is maintained.
Still, think my critics could have made these observations. Will need to stay off line, kind of tired of being bad mouthed for having schooling in engineering.
Curious how long did you school for? Also what type of engineering? I'm on my second year of mechanical engineering. Personally they have shown me little I haven't already learned myself prior. Waste of money.....for a piece of paper. Anyways I wasn't trying to yell at you, I just couldn't see how you didn't see how it was defying thermodynamics, and you were to concerned with newton's laws.....sorry
is it not this magnets that make the pendulums swing ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=sadl0Xl31JM&feature=endscreen
Yes the mags are pushing and pulling.
I tried this a long time ago and it seems like you can only get around 10 minutes of moving before it finds a sweet spot to settle into.
Quote from: ace569er on February 20, 2013, 09:25:27 PM
Curious how long did you school for? Also what type of engineering? I'm on my second year of mechanical engineering. Personally they have shown me little I haven't already learned myself prior. Waste of money.....for a piece of paper. Anyways I wasn't trying to yell at you, I just couldn't see how you didn't see how it was defying thermodynamics, and you were to concerned with newton's laws.....sorry
propulsion engineering. I guess with me, I got used to looking at how the system functioned as a whole.
take4 out one piece of the system and it would quit working. you know, like the boilers, the steam driven turbines, the steam driven pumps, it all worked together.
murmel, if you watch closely, the pendulums have a counter weight that the horse shoe magnet also pulls down with it.
I uploading my model here;
http://www.overunity.com/1440/finsruds-perpetuum-mobile/new/#new
If anyone is interested in improving it.
Though this is just an educated guess....I think the center pendulum is moved by the magnet that tilts the spring as well as the balls weight on the tilted wheel putting pressure on the spring(big one). Also the 3 pendulums are off set to the same side as the very large magnet, on them, is offset on. I think this helps push the center pendulum. If I arrange all repelling magnets in the position shown. Then stop it and just touch it it want to go in that pattern about 2-7 rotations. if you kick it with just one of the three off sets you can keep it going around. I think this is at least somewhat close to what makes the center pendulum move. Sadly everything relys on everything else to run, in my option. so it is hard to test, with a controlled pendulum to push it. yet alone the ball and spring factor. Unless it is completely built. So I hope this model helps a working replication to be made. Because I want one!!!!!!!!