Quote :
The data reeled out in its support, verified many times over, reads like an extended column
of Ripley's Believe It or Not. The electromagnetic force is exactly 1,039 times stronger than
the gravitational force: had it been a little weaker, say 1,033 times as strong, stars would
have been a billion times less massive, and would have burnt a million times faster. Long
before any of us-or our forefathers-were born, universal darkness would have buried all. If
the difference between the mass of the proton and the neutron were not exactly what it is roughly
twice the mass of the electron-all neutrons would have become protons and matter
as we know it would cease to exist! Water, almost alone among compounds, is lighter in its
solid state than in its liquid state; ice floats. Had it not done so oceans would have frozen
from the bottom up, and in time, the earth would have been entirely covered by ice!
VERY INTERESTING !
the probability of gawd is slim to none.
the .pdf you linked to contains ZERO extant material evidence and not a single logical proof for the existence of gawd. it just regurgitates all of the asinine, not cogent arguments that faithers love to present.
from the .pdf: " Unwin started with the assumption that there was a 50:50 chance of God existing. He then fed in-in mathematical form-all the evidence which supported or opposed the proposition, and began to calculate."
what evidence is there that supports his proposition? none. in point of fact, that is why they call it faith... ::)
About Gawd and the Universe (or Nature): both are one entity; it (Universe) never had beginning and never will end, according to Hawking. However: we consider all matter elements (chemical elements) as lifeless. So, how does it come that all living creatures {people, animals, plants) are... just living, if created of 100% lifeless matter? Where their consciousness comes from if they consist of only lifeless matter?
When it comes to goodness and evil, it's only people's hipocrisy.
"according to hawking..."
and hawking has about as much extant material evidence for his claim as the faithers do for their gawd. ::)
I am a Firm Believer in GOD . The reason being is the Bible itself is a handed down translation of his existence in the heavens and the creator of everything. It is testimony and a non fiction account of a supreme being not from this world.It is in fact the reason you have a soul . There is also the Devil who defy God. He is responsible for Evil and gives some humans a false sense of knowledge, power and pride to question GODs existance .
Albert
Quote from: gadgetmall on September 14, 2012, 08:30:31 AM
I am a Firm Believer in GOD . The reason being is the Bible itself is a handed down translation of his existence in the heavens and the creator of everything. It is testimony and a non fiction account of a supreme being not from this world.It is in fact the reason you have a soul . There is also the Devil who defy God. He is responsible for Evil and gives some humans a false sense of knowledge, power and pride to question GODs existance .
Albert
the bible is no more 'evidence' of your gawd than the iliad is 'evidence' of zeus or starwars books are 'evidence' of jedi. ::)
and until one of you faithers presents a SINGLE shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of this gawd you keep proselytizing about, your UNSUBSTANTIATED opinion holds no more gravitas than a 3 year old assuring me their imaginary friend is real...
Quoteassuring me their imaginary friend is real
lol....Actually, there is Infinitely more evidence that my Friend is real, than that 'wilyinebriated' has any friends at all! There is a 'sobering' reason that wilby inebriated and those like himself can't or won't consider evidence in favor of the Grand Creator, God....and it is because they are deathly afraid of the consequences.
God's own Word says it best:
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20
There is a very important reason for God to require FAITH as a vital part of our earthly test.....
Name a single earthly empire that survived without it, including the one crumbling before your eyes.
Blessings in Christ
Quote from: TechStuf on September 14, 2012, 10:45:22 AM
lol....Actually, there is Infinitely more evidence that my Friend is real, than that 'wilyinebriated' has any friends at all! There is a 'sobering' reason that wilby inebriated and those like himself can't or won't consider evidence in favor of the Grand Creator, God....and it is because they are deathly afraid of the consequences.
there is no "evidence in favor of the Grand Creator, God..."
and i'm about as scared of your imaginary godfairy as i am of leprechauns... ::)
Quote from: TechStuf on September 14, 2012, 10:45:22 AM
God's own Word says it best:
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20[/font][/size]
There is a very important reason for God to require FAITH as a vital part of our earthly test.....
Name a single earthly empire that survived without it, including the one crumbling before your eyes.
Blessings in Christ
LOL quoting the bible as evidence of your godfairy is a circular argument... tu stultus es!
Quote from: gadgetmall on September 14, 2012, 08:30:31 AM
I am a Firm Believer in GOD . The reason being is the Bible itself is a handed down translation of his existence in the heavens and the creator of everything. It is testimony and a non fiction account of a supreme being not from this world.It is in fact the reason you have a soul . There is also the Devil who defy God. He is responsible for Evil and gives some humans a false sense of knowledge, power and pride to question GODs existance .
Albert
Yes, the Bible is true, because in the Bible, it says it is the word of god. And we believe everything it says in the Bible, because, as just mentioned, everything in the Bible is true.
The Bible is a dogma. So, in this way it cannot be considered as any proof for God's existence. To understand this statement, one must understand what Dogma is. I cannot understand how one can say that there is proof for God's existence only because the Bible say so. A dogma say that believers don't need to see or sense by any means or even to understand to believe. So, if you, BELIEVERS have such arguements, I see no reason for any further discussion. Though I am FORMALLY a Christian, I'm not Christian by heart; the Bible is not my dogma; I must understand to believe.
Wilby, how can you explain that part of my concern that lifeless matter can produce consciousness (read: life)?
Religion is the cause of half the wars on earth, the other half are fought over oil. It is estimated, that on this planet we have 2,557 different religions. Each one claims to be the one and only true religion. So if you join a religion ,the odds are 2,557 to one you will still go to hell. So, instead of wasting your life on an imaginary friend in the sky, who is allegedly more powerful than my aerial friend, and-you-will-kill-me-if-I-don`t-believe-you, just relax and have a good time. :)
For agreeing we need proof and for disagreeing also we need proof. There are thousands of prophets & saints who have realised God and spoken about god. Straight away we cannot come to conclusion that they are wrong. Human eyes can recognise only seven frequency of electromagnetic waves, beyond which ultra violet and infra red rays cannot be seen but still they exist. Human eyes cannot see magnetic field, gravitational field or any other fields but these fields can be realised through forces. Opposite poles of a magnet atttract and like poles repel. Similary God can also be a force which can be realised but cannot be seen. A field is something which doesnot exist (zero mass) but still exists (evident from the force). How do you define it?
As far as i discovered god is closely related to what we call the observer in quantum mechanics and qed.
On the other hand i believe we are all gods ourselves.
You are looking for God ??
In heaven = on earth
The great = the small
Up = Down
Take a cell (animal (human) , vegetable, (mineral ?))
Fertilized ( orgasm = OU ! )
1 cell = GOD = (God + Lilith) !
When they split, you get 2-cells.
Cal them Adam and Eve
If y am right, we have not to look for God in heaven
But DEEP in ourselves.
Really convinced,
Peter
Quote from: Qwert on September 14, 2012, 11:21:04 AM
Wilby, how can you explain that part of my concern that lifeless matter can produce consciousness (read: life)?
i can't... but that doesn't mean gawd did it... see 'non sequitur'.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 14, 2012, 04:05:41 PM
i can't... but that doesn't mean gawd did it... see 'non sequitur'.
You're right, I guess. But, it can be Allah itself.
Funny thing...........
Myself being a bit of a mental midget,I am always impressed with "W"'s vast knowledge
and his Cohesive and brilliant arguing skills.
And Then someone starts Talking religion............
Its like he takes a Hate Pill or his mind goes "Tilt", the Venum and vitriol starts Flying so fervently ,almost like another guy is Posting??
And then I get Sad........
Anyhoo ....Just an observation.
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Qwert on September 14, 2012, 05:56:07 PM
But, it can be Allah itself.
and what extant material evidence do you have to support that?
So, when life is found on Mars or another planet or another planetary system, Is this the same God that you thought you were the focal point of?
The number one reason you believe in God is "Because you can!" and because of this it must be true?
This thread started out by listing several facts of Science but yet somehow it is proof of something else?
If it were not exactly as stated, then you would not be here to think about it and everything would just go on without you!
It is truly amazing we are here and in your mind you think it to be proof of God, but if we all sit around and do nothing in the perfect God world, then we all simply become extinct, just like we were never here at all. Unless you could throw yourself into the volcano and stop the thunder!
So every time you think of God or not, it is simply because you can, everything else is just science used to enforce your line of thinking.
Someone who believes in God is several times more likely to kill others for they will continue on in another life.
Those who do not believe in God understand life to be of extreme value, and it should be preserved at all cost, since once your gone there is nothing else for anyone.
We are all just useless dust on this tiny planet in infinite space likely filled with trillions of other species on other systems that we will likely never know about.
But why should we care about them, we have our own God to watch over us.
"a casual stroll through a prison shows that the faithers do not hold the moral high ground."
wilby inebriated
american iconoclast (19XX - )
Lumen
Lots of stats on God and his peeps,most impressive.
As for myself .....I really love this place [the planet] so I suppose it makes me love the creator,if God has other Peeps somewhere on some other planets ....
I'm good with that!!
I must say I really don't have the urge to hurt anybody or kill anybody yet...But I'm still new to this enlightenment stuff.
One thing for sure ,I don't do it for the money or the fame or even to get a reward
I just do it because I love this place [ and the people].
Oh and by "do it" I mean works ,sort of why I come here,to do work ,my fathers work.
But thats just me...........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 14, 2012, 08:19:54 PM
and what extant material evidence do you have to support that?
None, but I don't say it is so, I say: it can, or rather: it could be. Anyway, the LIFE from LIFELESS components "could be" an evidence. How otherwise can it be explained (since you found no explanation)?
Quote from: lumen on September 14, 2012, 08:31:35 PM
Someone who believes is God is several times more likely to kill others for they will continue on in another life
It should be rather: Someone who believes in God only on the basis of a dogma (fanatics). The same could be said about non-believers when their conviction is based solely on a dogma. This would be the same kind of fanatics, only from opposite camps.
I must remind: one of the rules of this forum is: "no religion threads". So, I don't know what will be Stefan's reaction when he come back...
It is high time, dear readers to think about the Judgments of God Almighty. And as one stands before Him as will we all, one may wish he or she had considered the evidence more thoughtfully. You see, God is angry with our country, and the world at large….as we have defaulted to put in power above us, those who are His enemies! The proof that God’s Word is unfolding exactly as foretold, is everywhere. Man’s history is one of ALWAYS ending up dominating his fellow man to his own injury. ALWAYS, without fail. God demands FAITH because without it, no kingdom will last. As man has well proven. God’s Word is proven Faithful and True, to the letter. There is no shortage of evidence as to just who is in power of this world at this exact moment in history!…..
Net search â€" Shriner Lucifer
Net search â€" D.C. Jerusalem masonic shrine
Net search â€" six pointed star mark beast
Net search â€" 666 talents of gold
http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/talmud-nwo.htm (http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/talmud-nwo.htm)
Who is in power of the world at this time? The bible describes them and their mark to the letter! No other Book on the planet at any time comes close to the accuracy and Wisdom contained in God’s True Word.Look and see that secret societies have founded their doctrines on the fallen solomon, who fell away from Yahweh, the One True Creator, and took the “Star of chemosh†as his personal seal, hence the “Seal of solomon†or the HEXagram. A geometric representation of 666. That is why the HEXagram is above the eagle on our dollar bill. It symbolizes, that they rule OVER America. Many soldiers have been asking why it is that on EVERY officer sword in the U.S. military, a HEXagram is now etched on every hilt. Why has MalWart changed it’s logo to a six pointed symbol? Note on Youtube that various videos of mobile guard towers are going up in MalWart parking lots at several locations in the south east. The HEXagram IS the mark of the beast, as forewarned in God’s Word. Those who take this mark, or worship the beast will be allowed to buy or sell in the days ahead…..but will pay the ultimate price.What is happening to heaven and earth itself at this time? Again, God’s Word is True. See the link below, as there is much evidence that Luke 21:25-28 is in fulfillment at this time, as is Revelation 16:8, and Isaiah 24:20 to be fulfilled soon enough!
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm)
Whose side are you on, dear reader? Your own? Lucifer’s by intentional action or paralytic inaction?If you be of Christ Yeshua, then do as He commands and instead of sitting in silence with one’s head hanging low……â€STAND UP and LIFT UP your heads, for your REDEMPTION draws near!â€
The words I speak have borne their burden of evidence as I have shared these truths before on this forum and many other places before much of it has come to pass. As worldwide events pattern themselves after God's Word regarding the end of a wicked world and the beginning of the new....one would do well to humble one's self before their Maker and ask His Hand be upon one's life this day, and those directly ahead.
The hour is truly late, and one had best turn or return to God in Christ Yeshua while there is yet time. And may He find you working what is good toward all upon His return! HalleluYAH!
Blessings in Christ
Quote from: Qwert on September 14, 2012, 09:44:12 PM
I must remind: one of the rules of this forum is: "no religion threads". So, I don't know what will be Stefan's reaction when he come back...
This thread is started just to have a healthy discussion about existance of god and not about religion. Religions are man made but god is above all.
I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Sorry for posting this thread and request moderator to delete this thread.
Quote from: Newton II on September 15, 2012, 12:09:32 AM
This thread is started just to have a healthy discussion about existance of god and not about religion. Religions are man made but god is above all.
I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Sorry for posting this thread and request moderator to delete this thread.
gawd is religion... ::) and gawd is not "above all"... god is imaginary, unless you have a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for your imaginary godfairy savior friend. i'll wait... ::)
Quote from: Qwert on September 14, 2012, 09:44:12 PM
None, but I don't say it is so, I say: it can, or rather: it could be. Anyway, the LIFE from LIFELESS components "could be" an evidence. How otherwise can it be explained (since you found no explanation)?
it 'could be' explained lots of other ways... this isn't a 2 choice option... see the logical fallaccy known as false dilemma.
Quote from: TechStuf on September 14, 2012, 11:01:48 PM
It is high time, dear readers to think about the Judgments of God Almighty. And as one stands before Him as will we all, one may wish he or she had considered the evidence more thoughtfully. You see, God is angry with our country, and the world at large….as we have defaulted to put in power above us, those who are His enemies! The proof that God’s Word is unfolding exactly as foretold, is everywhere. Man’s history is one of ALWAYS ending up dominating his fellow man to his own injury. ALWAYS, without fail. God demands FAITH because without it, no kingdom will last. As man has well proven. God’s Word is proven Faithful and True, to the letter. There is no shortage of evidence as to just who is in power of this world at this exact moment in history!…..
Net search â€" Shriner Lucifer
Net search â€" D.C. Jerusalem masonic shrine
Net search â€" six pointed star mark beast
Net search â€" 666 talents of gold
http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/talmud-nwo.htm (http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/talmud-nwo.htm)
Who is in power of the world at this time? The bible describes them and their mark to the letter! No other Book on the planet at any time comes close to the accuracy and Wisdom contained in God’s True Word.Look and see that secret societies have founded their doctrines on the fallen solomon, who fell away from Yahweh, the One True Creator, and took the “Star of chemosh†as his personal seal, hence the “Seal of solomon†or the HEXagram. A geometric representation of 666. That is why the HEXagram is above the eagle on our dollar bill. It symbolizes, that they rule OVER America. Many soldiers have been asking why it is that on EVERY officer sword in the U.S. military, a HEXagram is now etched on every hilt. Why has MalWart changed it’s logo to a six pointed symbol? Note on Youtube that various videos of mobile guard towers are going up in MalWart parking lots at several locations in the south east. The HEXagram IS the mark of the beast, as forewarned in God’s Word. Those who take this mark, or worship the beast will be allowed to buy or sell in the days ahead…..but will pay the ultimate price.What is happening to heaven and earth itself at this time? Again, God’s Word is True. See the link below, as there is much evidence that Luke 21:25-28 is in fulfillment at this time, as is Revelation 16:8, and Isaiah 24:20 to be fulfilled soon enough!
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm)
Whose side are you on, dear reader? Your own? Lucifer’s by intentional action or paralytic inaction?If you be of Christ Yeshua, then do as He commands and instead of sitting in silence with one’s head hanging low……â€STAND UP and LIFT UP your heads, for your REDEMPTION draws near!â€
The words I speak have borne their burden of evidence as I have shared these truths before on this forum and many other places before much of it has come to pass. As worldwide events pattern themselves after God's Word regarding the end of a wicked world and the beginning of the new....one would do well to humble one's self before their Maker and ask His Hand be upon one's life this day, and those directly ahead.
The hour is truly late, and one had best turn or return to God in Christ Yeshua while there is yet time. And may He find you working what is good toward all upon His return! HalleluYAH!
Blessings in Christ
so that's a no then... you don't have single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend... thank you AGAIN for your tacit admission. ::)
Quote from: Qwert on September 14, 2012, 03:34:45 AMhow does it come that all living creatures {people, animals, plants) are... just living, if created of 100% lifeless matter?
Yeah, good question. Why is not everything in the universe dead wasteland? It could be wasteland everywhere. Just dead wasteland. Sand, Ashes, Stone. No need for life. It could continue being wasteland forever.
But obviously there are rules in the universe. Rules which developed "life" and evolution. Who made these rules? I bet the answer is in a dimension we can't understand... so yeah, maybe a masterbrain created this rules, and this is called god... (don't ask me who created this masterbrain :p)
YOU ARE ALL filthy spooners. YOU are ALL guilty of the original spoon. the ONLY way to eternal life and everlasting salvation is to beg the forgiveness of YOUR LORD AND MASTER, the creator and shaper of the universe, the flying spaghetti monster. REPENT YOUR SPOONS! REPENT YOU WICKED, FILTHY SPOONERS.
For a book comprised of writings from many authors, over thousands of years, to be so harmonious and accurate is beyond chance. The prophesies of who would be in power in our day alone, absolutely recommend Divine authorship. The descriptions of modern technical capabilities, the FACT that a world wide military political machine would be in power and institute a MARK that controls buying and selling and have dominion over the air, even going into space, weather control....the list of accurate foretelling of history, generations before the fact, puts those who are predisposed to intellectual cowardice on their heels, hence the knee jerk reaction to rebel against Absolute Truth. They prefer to hide in a sea of illusory relativism. Moral and otherwise.
http://watch.pair.com/mark.html (http://watch.pair.com/mark.html)
http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/mark-of-the-beast-8-solomon-freemasonry/ (http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/mark-of-the-beast-8-solomon-freemasonry/)
Modern military sabers have six pointed stars on them. There is a six pointed star between each member of congress on C-span video. A six pointed star is above the eagle on the dollar bill, which signifies who rules OVER America. Even MalWart changed it's logo to a six pointed star and as crap hits the fan, is the only retail consumer chain deemed "too big to fail" by government, which is why mobile guard towers are going up on MalWart parking lots as shown on Youtube videos.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/09/297062.shtml (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/09/297062.shtml)
Google - Lucifer companies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs)
Who holds the world in their power at this time? A time prophesied to undergo the greatest upheaval and tribulation in world history? A time when sun, moon, and stars are out of place? Even as the oceans roar and toss violently? Who hasn't seen the markedly increased tsunami, earthquakes, pestilential weather? Signs in the heavens?
Some, would hide their heads in the sand or other dark places rather than see the TRUTH of God's Word made manifest exactly as He forewarned. For, as any one with eyes can see, and anyone with ears can hear, His Word, penned over the course of thousands of years and in perfect harmony, Has, Is, and Will Always be True.
Of course, His Wisdom and ways are far above our own. And His kingdom is eternal. Proof of God? All one need do is humble one's self and sincerely ASK Him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc)
He is a God of Wonders to be sure!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obEBR5MbhNU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obEBR5MbhNU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRSjzY0s0SM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRSjzY0s0SM)
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm (http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm)
Blessings dear readers and may Christ find you working what is good toward all upon His return
"W"
Not the silverware too :o :o :o
Is nothing sacred???
First the Pasta ....and Now This !!!!
Oh the humanity.............
But as far as proof or "Probability of God"??
your "masterbrainer" will have to work for now.[there's time].
I guess you don't have Kids...........[mine always make me pray]
xxx
Chet
PS
To those less fortunate ,a side note
The almighty self made entity known as Wilby{"W"} Placed me on "ignore" sometime ago.
Who says God doesn't answer prayer.
Bliss.............
Hi everyone good day ;D
In the BIBLE there is what you call a FOREKNOWLEDGE, example to this is the
ISAIAH 40:22 "THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH".
Now! if you have common sense you should be thinking about that because that was written more than two thousand years ago, that means there is some extra super being know more his creations until Galileo galeli probe it.
Try to dismantle your rolex and put it in the universe and wait for the BIG BANG to assemble it, what DO YOU THINK IS THE CHANCE FOR IT TO BE ASSEMBLED?
SIMPLY THERE IS CREATOR! >:( LIFE IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN YOUR WATCH.
GOT THAT WILBY?
Quote from: TechStuf on September 15, 2012, 06:42:38 AM
For a book comprised of writings from many authors, over thousands of years, to be so harmonious and accurate is beyond chance. The prophesies of who would be in power in our day alone, absolutely recommend Divine authorship. The descriptions of modern technical capabilities, the FACT that a world wide military political machine would be in power and institute a MARK that controls buying and selling and have dominion over the air, even going into space, weather control....the list of accurate foretelling of history, generations before the fact, puts those who are predisposed to intellectual cowardice on their heels, hence the knee jerk reaction to rebel against Absolute Truth. They prefer to hide in a sea of illusory relativism. Moral and otherwise.
http://watch.pair.com/mark.html (http://watch.pair.com/mark.html)
http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/mark-of-the-beast-8-solomon-freemasonry/ (http://littleguyintheeye.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/mark-of-the-beast-8-solomon-freemasonry/)
Modern military sabers have six pointed stars on them. There is a six pointed star between each member of congress on C-span video. A six pointed star is above the eagle on the dollar bill, which signifies who rules OVER America. Even MalWart changed it's logo to a six pointed star and as crap hits the fan, is the only retail consumer chain deemed "too big to fail" by government, which is why mobile guard towers are going up on MalWart parking lots as shown on Youtube videos.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/09/297062.shtml (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/09/297062.shtml)
Google - Lucifer companies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjOs-egFMs)
Who holds the world in their power at this time? A time prophesied to undergo the greatest upheaval and tribulation in world history? A time when sun, moon, and stars are out of place? Even as the oceans roar and toss violently? Who hasn't seen the markedly increased tsunami, earthquakes, pestilential weather? Signs in the heavens?
Some, would hide their heads in the sand or other dark places rather than see the TRUTH of God's Word made manifest exactly as He forewarned. For, as any one with eyes can see, and anyone with ears can hear, His Word, penned over the course of thousands of years and in perfect harmony, Has, Is, and Will Always be True.
Of course, His Wisdom and ways are far above our own. And His kingdom is eternal. Proof of God? All one need do is humble one's self and sincerely ASK Him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc)
He is a God of Wonders to be sure!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obEBR5MbhNU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obEBR5MbhNU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRSjzY0s0SM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRSjzY0s0SM)
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm (http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm)
Blessings dear readers and may Christ find you working what is good toward all upon His return
so that's a no again... you don't have single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy. ::)
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission of that fact.
Quote from: ramset on September 15, 2012, 07:51:35 AM
"W"
Not the silverware too :o :o :o
Is nothing sacred???
First the Pasta ....and Now This !!!!
Oh the humanity.............
But as far as proof or "Probability of God"??
your "masterbrainer" will have to work for now.[there's time].
I guess you don't have Kids...........[mine always make me pray]
xxx
Chet
PS
To those less fortunate ,a side note
The almighty self made entity known as Wilby{"W"} Placed me on "ignore" sometime ago.
Who says God doesn't answer prayer.
Bliss.............
yeah see how asinine your fantasy godfairy looks when mirrored back to you.
and thank you too chetty for again providing a tacit admission that you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary bearded metaphysical shepherd entity. you idiotic fool, you're no different than tito the clown.
i pity your children chet...
edit: i take that back, you're not an idiot, you're a dunce (an idiot who is specifically incapable of learning).
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 15, 2012, 08:10:04 AM
Hi everyone good day ;D
In the BIBLE there is what you call a FOREKNOWLEDGE, example to this is the
ISAIAH 40:22 "THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH".
Now! if you have common sense you should be thinking about that because that was written more than two thousand years ago, that means there is some extra super being know more his creations until Galileo galeli probe it.
idiot. do you even know what a non sequitur is? your logically fallacy is noted and dismissed as the fallacy it is.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 15, 2012, 08:10:04 AM
Try to dismantle your rolex and put it in the universe and wait for the BIG BANG to assemble it, what DO YOU THINK IS THE CHANCE FOR IT TO BE ASSEMBLED?
SIMPLY THERE IS CREATOR! >:( LIFE IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN YOUR WATCH.
GOT THAT WILBY?
another lame logical fallacy... ::) why am i not surprised. you filthy spooner.
if complex things need a creator tito the clown... then who created your creator?
and i don't have a watch... got that you idiotic, foolish, filthy spooner?
People have a belief ingrained into them from friends and family and to go against such a belief is a pain in your heart even if you knew they were wrong, so the belief continues on with a hope that you may be the one that is wrong until the day come when you yourself believe also.
People can argue about a concept, or debate a theory, but only an unfounded belief is worth killing for!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 15, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
if complex things need a creator tito the clown... then who created your creator?
That one is easy, it's turtles all the way down.
Anyway, arguing with theists is like shooting fish in a barrel. Why bother?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 15, 2012, 10:59:14 AM
Anyway, arguing with theists is like shooting fish in a barrel. Why bother?
to defend and uphold logic and reason... do you have a problem with that?
because religious communities are consistent offenders and consistently affect people in rationally and morally indefensible ways...
furthermore, our excusing of the unreason that we call religion/gawd has opened the floodgates for either types for other opportunistic attempts to exploit people’s trustworthiness and “openmindedness†â€" e.g., the cult of scientology, homeopathy, psychics, overunity and so on.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 15, 2012, 11:05:10 AM
to defend and uphold logic and reason... do you have a problem with that?
Logic and reason, laws of physics thmeselves point towards existance of God.
Logic is like this :
1) Mass cannot be created - Then this universe cannot be real
2) This universe is real - Then mass can be created
Either No.(1) has to be true or No(2) has to be true. Both cannot be true or false at the same time.
If science says that mass cannot be created then it has to accept that the existing universe is not real and it is just an illusion created by GOD
If science says that this universal is real ( made of protons, neutrons, elecrons, nutrinos, quarks and other bullshit things) then it has to accept that mass can be created.
But the science as we know neither accepts that the universe is illusion nor it accepts that mass can be created which are contradictory from the logical view point.
Vineet.K.
Quote from: vineet_kiran on September 15, 2012, 01:14:47 PM
Logic and reason, laws of physics thmeselves point towards existance of God.
Logic is like this :
1) Mass cannot be created - Then this universe cannot be real
2) This universe is real - Then mass can be created
Either No.(1) has to be true or No(2) has to be true. Both cannot be true or false at the same time.
If science says that mass cannot be created then it has to accept that the existing universe is not real and it is just an illusion created by GOD
If science says that this universal is real ( made of protons, neutrons, elecrons, nutrinos, quarks and other bullshit things) then it has to accept that mass can be created.
But the science as we know neither accepts that the universe is illusion nor it accepts that mass can be created which are contradictory from the logical view point.
Vineet.K.
Fact! Mass can be created from energy, and can be created by man, so using your own logic, man is a God!
Well, then there is point two: Because the universe is infinite and mass was created from energy, it took infinite energy to create and this used up all Gods energy.
You can certainly see that a simple belief based on nothing but.... well belief, is so hard to change because there is no proof to cause change and even when life is found on other planets people will just change the story like all religions do to fit the bill and keep them believing.
Cool!
W
Nice.....
I see its nap time for "W", very hard work this "overseeing the minions" ....always having to keep a watchful eye lest we wonder off and start worshipping some Hubcap Or broken DVD player.......... or make a few Spelling mistakes !!
Its all about the "Spoons And Pasta " these days.[there's a story behind that....? I just know it]
Anyhoo "W", when you wake up from nap time ,and finish beating the Cat and pulling the legs off that spider...please, please put me back on your ignore list.
Thx
Chetty
PS
Lumen...Very cool indeed ,I think its even a bit biblical...........
This is something, today on the news I see that 23 countries are having violent protests at American embassy's from Muslim protesters.
I wonder why such religious people tend to act so violently. Whats up with that?
Quote from: lumen on September 15, 2012, 03:34:41 PM
Fact! Mass can be created from energy, and can be created by man, so using your own logic, man is a God!
When mass is created from energy it becomes 'conversion' and not 'creation'. Conservation law is applied to both mass and energy.
Vineet.K.
Quote from: vineet_kiran on September 15, 2012, 01:14:47 PM
Logic and reason, laws of physics thmeselves point towards existance of God.
Logic is like this :
1) Mass cannot be created - Then this universe cannot be real
2) This universe is real - Then mass can be created
Either No.(1) has to be true or No(2) has to be true. Both cannot be true or false at the same time.
If science says that mass cannot be created then it has to accept that the existing universe is not real and it is just an illusion created by GOD
If science says that this universal is real ( made of protons, neutrons, elecrons, nutrinos, quarks and other bullshit things) then it has to accept that mass can be created.
But the science as we know neither accepts that the universe is illusion nor it accepts that mass can be created which are contradictory from the logical view point.
Vineet.K.
Well, at least you did not bring up the Bible as evidence.
But first off, you should read/listen to Krauss's talk about the universe from nothing.
[size=78%]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo)[/size]
Second, even if you do not accept this theory, this does not lead to your conclusion. You set up a false dichotomy. Just because we do not yet understand how the universe was created does not mean that god did it.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 15, 2012, 11:05:10 AM
to defend and uphold logic and reason... do you have a problem with that?
because religious communities are consistent offenders and consistently affect people in rationally and morally indefensible ways...
furthermore, our excusing of the unreason that we call religion/gawd has opened the floodgates for either types for other opportunistic attempts to exploit people’s trustworthiness and “openmindedness†â€" e.g., the cult of scientology, homeopathy, psychics, overunity and so on.
I suppose you're right. It is good to defend logic and reason, and I am with you on the god stuff. But I have to say, from the way you are writing, I get the unfortunate impression of someone literally foaming at the mouth. I do not see how get enjoyable debates this way. It has to immediately devolve into an ad-hominem attack fest.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 15, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
idiot. do you even know what a non sequitur is? your logically fallacy is noted and dismissed as the fallacy it is.
another lame logical fallacy... ::) why am i not surprised. you filthy spooner.
if complex things need a creator tito the clown... then who created your creator?
and i don't have a watch... got that you idiotic, foolish, filthy spooner?
See, i know exactly how atheist will react cause they don't beleive in God they act evil. i think idiot man act as how you act, simple logic you cannot reason! >:(
see, do you think you can convince everyone with that kind of attitude! >:(
You#$%@#$%^#@$%#$%@#$% :D joke
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 16, 2012, 01:13:29 AM
See, i know exactly how atheist will react cause they don't beleive in God they act evil. i think idiot man act as how you act, simple logic you cannot reason! >:(
see, do you think you can convince everyone with that kind of attitude! >:(
You#$%@#$%^#@$%#$%@#$% :D joke
A creator doesn't need a creator You @#$#$%#$^#$%^$#%^$%^ |! >:(
its none sense talking to you, see atheist, they beleive to their self that they already know everything! .
Got that? got that? got that? got that? you got that! ;D
you don't have god so you bless your self!. ;D
it takes a ton of ignorance to argue with the unknown..
hey wilby, isaiah 40:22 is not concluding that the earth is circle, he is stating it straightly square.
YOU!@#$!@#$!@#$@!#$@!#$@!#$!@# >:( [size=78%] [/size]
[size=78%]
[/size]
simple reading of verse you cannot sing ;D YOU @#$!@#$@!%$^$#%^$%%^ >:(
TAlk to yourself! You @#$%@#$%@#$%@#$% >:(
;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 16, 2012, 01:26:29 AM
A creator doesn't need a creator You @#$#$%#$^#$%^$#%^$%^ |! >:(
its none sense talking to you, see atheist, they beleive to their self that they already know everything! .
What Wilby was getting at, though not eloquently, is that you seem to be using the "watchmaker" argument. That life is so complex, that it must have a creator. Well, in turn, this creator must also be very complex, to be able to create the universe, so who created the creator?
Also, atheists do not believe they know everything. We say that we do not know. But we refuse to believe in god unless evidence of said god is presented. The mere presence of something you cannot explain does not mean that god exists.
Furthermore, it does not flow from your position (that god created the universe) that god continues to intervene in our lives and that anything from the Bible is true.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 15, 2012, 11:56:14 PM
Just because we do not yet understand how the universe was created does not mean that god did it.
Reversely, unless you understand how the universe is created, you cannot come to conclusion that GOD doesnot exist. It is same as
50 - 50 chance as stated in .pdf file.
If scientists don't believe in god, let them not. Nobody is forcing them to believe. But unless they come up with complete and correct explanation, they should not misguide others with their half boiled knowledge. Because if tomorrow somebody proves that GOD exists, then people will curse these scientists for misguiding them.
Vineet.K.
Quote from: vineet_kiran on September 16, 2012, 02:24:45 AM
Reversely, unless you understand how the universe is created, you cannot come to conclusion that GOD doesnot exist. It is same as
50 - 50 chance as stated in .pdf file.
If scientists don't believe in god, let them not. Nobody is forcing them to believe. But unless they come up with complete and correct explanation, they should not misguide others with their half boiled knowledge. Because if tomorrow somebody proves that GOD exists, then people will curse these scientists for misguiding them.
Vineet.K.
Where do you get the 50/50 number? There could be a pink elephant on the other side of the black hole in the center of the Milky Way. We cannot know for sure. I cannot prove it is not there, but the odds of it being there are not 50/50.
Point being, we atheists are happy to say we will not believe in god until one is proven. Atheism is a position of not knowing and therefore not caring about any gods. If tomorrow, someone proves that God exists, or Jesus himself comes down and makes himself know, I will gladly change my mind. What will it take you to change your mind?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 16, 2012, 03:36:27 AM
Jesus himself comes down and makes himself know, I will gladly change my mind. What will it take you to change your mind?
Jesus cannot come down to earth for everything. Once in a while GOD sends angels like Jesus to guide human beings. We have to follow their path and guidelines to reach GOD
Funny thing
I don't know any atheists, I meet tons of people that are very angry ,and don't like God ,
but I don't believe I have ever had someone look me in the eye and say "there's no God".
But I suppose I see men at their worst [and woman] ,I work with addicts and alchoholics ,when they are at their absolute worst,people that have run up against the wall. ...whom society considers the lowest of the Low.
Yeah I work in the foxhole of life ,people die all the time around me ,Kids mostly,
I never use to believe in evil .....still have a hard time with it,until I get the reality check of some young face in the casket.
I believe atheism is the luxury of a life apart from reality,a place where men can go and ask questions and throw stones, until the day comes when there in the foxhole........
and then it all comes apart...........
That is the day you were born for ..the place some of you need to get ,no place to go no where else to turn.
when you get there you will never be the same.......
its like being Born again.
absolutely amazing !!
I pray you find your destiny ,and get an open heart to the world around you.
It is truly a gift this life don't waste it being angry .
you want things to change?
"be that change"!!.
But thats just one mans opinion............
{from the Foxhole]
Thx
Chet
PS
Teets
Your a $@%&( Whacko !!
But I still Luv yah ;D
faith: the last refuge of the hopeless... and the first refuge of the ignorant.
so that's another no on the extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy from chetty, tito the clown, vinreet... imagine that! ::)
thank you again for your tacit admission about your imaginary godfairy... ::)
edit: and i'm agnostic, not atheist... you pretentious, sanctimonious faithers. ::)
even absurdities like christianity, judaism and islam have cheerleaders to defend them.
i guess i really shouldn't be surprised chetty is cheerleading for precious baby jeebus... he champions any and every absurd cause he can get his filthy little spooner fingers on. ::)
how's that logic problem i gave you awhile back going chetty? did you figure out what your premise was? did you ever bother to learn what a non sequitur is? no? imagine that! bliss indeed... ::)
"W"
I'm just reporting what I see everday from the Foxhole. desperate crushed people from all walks of life reaching out for help.....
sometimes , something wonderful happens at the very bottom..
[well actually a whole lot in my fox hole]
you call it what you will.......
But at the very least ,lets agree to disagree ..
Thx
Chet
PS
I hope I made a few spelling mistakes Too.
and BTW
you have never ever read, heard, ETC.... me mention any faith or person of faith whatsoever.
ODD??
PPS
I just cheated and Googled Non sequiter .
I think I see this all the time in the foxhole,It almost never ends up being what it started out as.......
You'll see when you get there ...or here..... and if its here you'll know me....
I'll be the guy with my hand out ,and the big Dopey smile on my unbearded face...
Quote from: vineet_kiran on September 15, 2012, 01:14:47 PM
Logic and reason, laws of physics thmeselves point towards existance of God.
Logic is like this :
1) Mass cannot be created - Then this universe cannot be real
2) This universe is real - Then mass can be created
Either No.(1) has to be true or No(2) has to be true. Both cannot be true or false at the same time.
If science says that mass cannot be created then it has to accept that the existing universe is not real and it is just an illusion created by GOD
If science says that this universal is real ( made of protons, neutrons, elecrons, nutrinos, quarks and other bullshit things) then it has to accept that mass can be created.
But the science as we know neither accepts that the universe is illusion nor it accepts that mass can be created which are contradictory from the logical view point.
Vineet.K.
idiot. your idea of logic is a non sequitur... you are starting from a flawed premise... ::) you wouldn't know 'logic' if it jumped up and bit you.
do you or do you not have a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of this imaginary godfairy of yours? and if you don't (you don't... that's why they call it faith you fool...) please explain, with a COGENT argument, why it is that you think your asinine, fantastical claim should receive any more consideration or gravitas than a 3 year old assuring me their imaginary friend is real... i'll wait... ::)
Quote from: lumen on September 15, 2012, 03:57:00 PM
This is something, today on the news I see that 23 countries are having violent protests at American embassy's from Muslim protesters.
I wonder why such religious people tend to act so violently. Whats up with that?
they act so violently because they don't care about life in the least as they have their "eternal salvation" to look forward to... agnostics and atheists on the other hand understand how precious this life is... this is why .02% of prison populations are atheist/agnostic and the remaining 99.98% are faithers.
The world would be a very happy place to live if only people be unaware of God notion. Because most, if not all evil is connected with religions and their interpretation of God notion. Those people who believe in their evangelical mission, in fact they spread evil news only under the cover of good news. Once their target: unaware people - get caught, they become slaves of the notion; and then they become easy target for all possible manipulation since the notion of "good and evil" is strictly abstract: always something "good" for one group appears "bad" or "evil" for an opposite group.
Such evangelical people always first give good, nice-looking news. And when they see their target is caught, then come not-so -nice news, restrictions, dogmas, sins, punishments, hell, etc...
So, if one really wants to see peace in this world, DON'T SPREAD GOOD NEWS!! Since they only look good only at first impression. When you look deeper, more exactly, you will see how those "good" become "bad". And according to yet another dogma, "God is pure love, so God won't punish those who are unaware, God punish only bad". "Bad" or "sinful" - read: "aware".
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 16, 2012, 10:31:56 AM
do you or do you not have a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of this imaginary godfairy of yours?
Existance of universe itself is the logical proof of existance of GOD. Only fools and idiots like you don't understand it and there is no point in arguing with idiots.
Thanks & good bye.
PS : Instead of arguing like a mental crack why don't you explain the formation of this universe?
In many years of the God or no God question, I found a simple divider that separates people and is very likely to be true sometime soon, so here it is!
Suppose today they discovered a pill that activates the dormant telomere gene and anyone that is still living can take this pill and from that moment on will again start growing to the peak of life which is about 25 years old. You will also never get any older as the telomere capping will maintain perfect DNA replication so you are also immortal. You will know everything you know now and additionally will learn the knowledge of thousands of years of life!
So now the question is , do you want the pill?
Keep in mind that God has given you the ability to make yourself immortal and that life is sacred.
Quote from: vineet_kiran on September 16, 2012, 11:15:16 AM
Existance of universe itself is the logical proof of existance of GOD. Only fools and idiots like you don't understand it and there is no point in arguing with idiots.
Thanks & good bye.
No it isn't. There are non divine theories to this already. See Lawrence Krauss's "Universe from Nothing" if you want an example.
It is really disappointing to see such poor reasoning skills on a science forum. Somehow, you guys go from "I do not know how the universe was created" to "God did it." What happened to the scientific method?
Quote from: ionizer on September 14, 2012, 12:25:28 PM
As far as i discovered god is closely related to what we call the observer in quantum mechanics and qed.
On the other hand i believe we are all gods ourselves.
I like the idea of "god" being "everything that exists", in a holographic sense. That includes good, bad, all matter, all consciousness, even every _probability_ of (future, present or past) existence, etc., and obviously also every human. And since it's all one big huge hologram, you can find "god" in everything and everyone, everywhere, even in the parts that are not aware of it.
An observer in QM is always part of the experiment also (holographic principle). A variant of the many-worlds interpretation of QM _could_ be looked at as above (but usually isn't taken that far).
Quote from: vineet_kiran on September 16, 2012, 11:15:16 AM
Existance of universe itself is the logical proof of existance of GOD. Only fools and idiots like you don't understand it and there is no point in arguing with idiots.
Thanks & good bye.
PS : Instead of arguing like a mental crack why don't you explain the formation of this universe?
i said COGENT... ::) so that's a no. ::) thank you for your tacit admission and tu stultus es!
ps... anyone who isn't a mental midget knows the flying spaghetti monster is the creator, shaper and ruler of this universe. ::)
Quote from: lumen on September 16, 2012, 11:20:48 AM
In many years of the God or no God question, I found a simple divider that separates people and is very likely to be true sometime soon, so here it is!
Suppose today they discovered a pill that activates the dormant telomere gene and anyone that is still living can take this pill and from that moment on will again start growing to the peak of life which is about 25 years old. You will also never get any older as the telomere capping will maintain perfect DNA replication so you are also immortal. You will know everything you know now and additionally will learn the knowledge of thousands of years of life!
So now the question is , do you want the pill?
Keep in mind that God has given you the ability to make yourself immortal and that life is sacred.
hell no! to be stuck for eternity with illogical, unreasonable idiots like chet, vinreet, tech stuf, tito the clown, etc... that would indeed be hell.
W
I got that twenty bucks I owe you from last weeks Card game,Tito says you cheated but Hey who knows?? maybe there are some decks with 4 red Aces??
Any hoo,
Thx for teaching us how to play....not sure I can Make it to this weeks lesson
though, I sure am looking Forward to learning How to play Pee Knuckles.
You are a really swell guy.
Thx
Chetty
chetty, vinreet, tito the clown or any other of you faithers that consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review.
thank you for your cooperation.
nota bene: failure or refusal to present said methods will constitute another tacit admission that you have neither extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
How to Falsify Udder Gods..........?
HHMMmmmmm,
Funny you should mention this to Chetty!
Lesson Number One,
As I said ,I work with Peeps who have no where else to turn,They have dug a hole so deep they usually just want to Die,
{you'll like this next part "W".}
Almost without exception they despise all things religious,the mere thought or mention of the word {God}will send them over the edge. and they have no quams about telling you what you can do with that [religion].
WHy is that?
well that is because of their lifes experience with religion for the most part.
They are however ALWAYS suffering from some moral dilema which leaves them spiritually Bankrupt and with out the Tools to get well.
Thats where I go to work, and it never involves an exorsism of beliefs, It always involves an introduction to a very basic belief, that they are loved
and not alone ,its the basic 12 step program ,it saves lives every day all over the world ,and with out a doubt I see miracles all the time,and I also have no doubt it came from our creator.
and from there they find their path ................
------------------
I have no interest in Converting peeps to a certain belief,I just want to keep them alive long enough to have a chance to find that out for themselves during the rest of their lives.
After a time along this path ,I must say with out exception they chose to Thank God for there new outlook on life.
No sticks, no stones ...no broken bones.
Just Love.
and one mans opinion........
end of lesson one.
Thx
Chetty
PS
Lest I forget to mention ,their is a 12 step book and it does have "a chapter to the Agnostic".
Lesson Two
Science ...
We study this... or we study that... we make some notes crunch some numbers break some things [experiments]
and draw conclusions.
If some one walks up and says "hows that work"? we point to our Science, and hope they don't ask to much more.
But every know and then some one comes along and says .
"No I need to Know how you really really Know what the heck your talking about!!
what is electricity?
What is light?
What is Fire?
what is Life ?
ETC ETC
[hows that go again ?? ADD NAUSIUM, ADD FIN something something ??]
all we can do is point to the _EVER CHANGING_ [TK taught me how to do _this__ I like it :.] thing we call science and hope they are satisfied and go away.
we are Faithers [_Scientists_] of a different Breed...........
Lesson Two gets into this "faither thing a bit more"
with a set of numbers some failed experiments ,a lot of crunching
and a most undeniable conclusion.
Will we be holding these Peer reviews to a panel of experts in my Field?
"a probability of God"
I have a most unique perspective on this...I am not sure you have amoungst you Qualified men??[i suspect you might tho]
I will give to you some perspective on this from the Man who opened the place I work at 70 or so years ago at a time when men around the world were drinking themselves to death in record numbers during another "great depression".
That will be lesson 3
it will be very brief mission statement /commission that you will be very hard pressed to find written anywhere on the internet but I'm sleepy now...........
Thx
Chet
read this with an open mind... http://www.ginmemberforum.com/drupal/sites/default/files/thescienceofmind-1926.pdf
Quote from: ramset on September 16, 2012, 08:02:08 PM
How to Falsify Udder Gods..........?
and one mans opinion........
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetty the cheerleader... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: ramset on September 17, 2012, 03:53:27 AM
Lesson Two
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetty the cheerleader... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
W
See the problem here is you have absolutely No experience in my Field,
Or you would not make such a simple silly remark , I am quite sure there
are folks out there who do have _tons_ of experience and would have a comment to make.
Maybe like Ghost here.
@Ghost
My computer is from the stone age,a file that big actually sends it into Cardiac arrest.
@W
I know that Drug addicts are the Scurge of the earth to Folks like yourself
and if they kill themselves ...So What.less for you to worry about, that kid would probably just end up making more kids Etc Etc Add Nauseum ad Finwhatever.
Not how I feel ,Not how I live
However,I came home to work On my Silly Faither OU device ,and I have to keep my Mind clear today.
To be continued.........[add Nausium addinfinwhatever]
thx
xxx
Chetty
Quote from: ramset on September 17, 2012, 09:16:28 AM
W
See the problem here is you have absolutely No experience in my Field,
Or you would not make such a simple silly remark , I am quite sure there
are folks out there who do have _tons_ of experience and would have a comment to make.
Maybe like Ghost here.
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetty the cheerleader... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: ramset on September 17, 2012, 09:16:28 AM
@W
I know that Drug addicts are the Scurge of the earth to Folks like yourself
and if they kill themselves ...So What.less for you to worry about, that kid would probably just end up making more kids Etc Etc Add Nauseum ad Finwhatever.
now you're claiming to know my feelings? LMFAO you megalomaniacal, pretentious, sanctimonious, mendacious little troll. you don't have the slightest clue as to what i consider addicts to be... you fucking prick.
pretentious, sanctimonious, mendacious little faithers that respond exclusively with logical fallacies like yourself are what i consider to be "the Scurge [sic] of the earth".
Snicker.........
Sorry about that W, I was not really sure about your feelings for your fellow man.
I will add however that your feelings [how you stand on addiction and youth] will be important for you to have any credibility whatsoever in this Peer reviewd discusion we are having.
You see the science of the mind is a relatively new Hobby of Men,[of course religious atrocities aside]
It has its most recent roots during the time period of member @ghosts
book PDF. around the same Time the 12 step program started [almost to the year ]
But ,I really have to get to work on my Open source Ou faither Thingy
which BTW I may ask for your help with at some point.
Sorry for behaving so "uppity" it was a cheap shot [the people like you thing]
but if your going to play "the probability of God " game.
you don't get to make _ALL_ the rules.
[this isn't one of our poker games].
be back MUCH later.........
thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on September 17, 2012, 10:08:23 AM
Snicker.........
Sorry about that W, I was not really sure about your feelings for your fellow man.
I will add however that your feelings [how you stand on addiction and youth] will be important for you to have any credibility whatsoever in this Peer reviewd discusion we are having.
You see the science of the mind is a relatively new Hobby of Men,[of course religious atrocities aside]
It has its most recent roots during the time period of member @ghosts
book PDF. around the same Time the 12 step program started [almost to the year ]
But ,I really have to get to work on my Open source Ou faither Thingy
which BTW I may ask for your help with at some point.
Sorry for behaving so "uppity" it was a cheap shot [the people like you thing]
but if your going to play "the probability of God " game.
you don't get to make _ALL_ the rules.
[this isn't one of our poker games].
be back MUCH later.........
thx
Chet
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetty the cheerleader... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
your apology is NOT accepted... and don't bother to ask me for help with ANYTHING.
W
I am a bit weak in the Falsify department, as a matter of fact I have never once gone there ,and always encourage people to do "what works for them".
regarding the "proof" part
Please give 5 examples that would satisfy your request .
And please flavor them differently.
Thx
Chester
PS
Of Course you are not required to except my apology, I am however Required to offer it.
thats How I roll now.............
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetito... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: ramset on September 18, 2012, 05:21:59 AM
I am a bit weak in the Falsify department, as a matter of fact I have never once gone there ,and always encourage people to do "what works for them".
chetito... that's because you haven't a clue as to what constitutes the scientific method... ::)
Quote from: ramset on September 18, 2012, 05:21:59 AM
regarding the "proof" part
Please give 5 examples that would satisfy your request .
bring your imaginary godfairy savior friend over for bbq on fri. sept. 21 2012... we can have some eats and then your godfairy can create a rock (from nothing) that is too heavy to lift... and then your godfairy can lift said rock. do that and i'll bend my knee.
until then... the ahh... the idea of kneeling, it's... you see, logically kicking the shit out of all your asinine, fantastical claims has left a nasty cramp in my leg... so kneeling will be hard for me...
Quote from: ramset on September 18, 2012, 05:21:59 AM
PS
Of Course you are not required to except my apology, I am however Required to offer it.
thats How I roll now.............
i hold your sins bound. that's how i roll now...
from the wiki...
Within the philosophy of science falsifiability or refutability is a quality or characteristic of a scientific hypothesis or theory. Falsifiability is considered a positive (and often essential) quality of a hypothesis because it means that the hypothesis is testable by empirical experiment and thus conforms to the standards of scientific method. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false, rather it means that if it is false, then observation or experiment will at some point demonstrate its falsehood.
"Falsifiable" is often taken to loosely mean "testable." A common application or usage put loosely is if it's not falsifiable, then it's not scientific.
so faithers... once again, what methods did you use to falsify all the 2500+ gods that humanity has created and what method did you use to validate yours?
no takers yet?? imagine that! ::)
Quote from: ramset on September 18, 2012, 05:21:59 AM
I am a bit weak in the Falsify department, as a matter of fact I have never once gone there ,and always encourage people to do "what works for them".
How do you know something "works" if you do not try to falsify it and subject it to scientific rigor?
eatinbyarque
First I also Owe you an apology for that Eatinbarbeque remark as it applied to your Handle and a Claimed "sorry I didn't have My glass's on" responce.
I lied ,sigh ..........
----------
As far as Scientific Rigor regarding what helps people in trouble with addiction.
I really don't like going to Funerals. and I have been running with the "Car Keys and the house wife" approach.
If I put the keys in the ignition turn em and it gets me where I gotta go.
No need to get all "hows it work " with that.
However ,I see thats Upsetting you fellahs.........
I'm having a Ruff Day or two here ,speaking Of cars I slapped a cheap motor into the wifes Subaru [the guy said it was Good ] a few days ago and yesterday Cabllooie ......sad very sad
Sigh ... I guess he lied Tooo..........?
Real busy atm .
But this is fun so I'll be back later!
@
"W"
I see you are using a lot of Big words ["F" words too]
So far I see one "flavor" in your request " miracle rocks ".
4 more please.............
Thx
Chester
W
Quotenow you're claiming to know my feelings? LMFAO you megalomaniacal, pretentious, sanctimonious, mendacious little troll. you don't have the slightest clue as to what i consider addicts to be... you fucking prick.
Do you have any extant material proof that you have feelings?
Quote from: thx1138 on September 18, 2012, 07:34:32 PM
Do you have any extant material proof that you have feelings?
Great question! I don't think anybody in this world can answer it.
Quote from: Newton II on September 18, 2012, 08:10:42 PM
Great question! I don't think anybody in this world can answer it.
We need to dogmatize this question and an answer is easy; even most idiotic answer will be good under a dogma.
HHHhhhmmmm
even an idiotic answer works with Dogma ?
feelings Huh?
Dogma ....
perspective..
I take the hammer smash my thumb ... it hurts ,I take the same hammer but this time "W" is holding the nail ....and I smash his thumb, he says it hurts
Do I believe him ? or do I need DOGMA?
I take addiction
Perspective
Lets say you don't eat for a few days,and you are completely starving to death.
1}[we'll call that feeling one]
Lets say you are a healthy 18 year old male heterosexual virgin.
you suddenly have what you consider to be the most beautiful veluptuous woman standing but naked in front of you with that "come here and make me happy" look in her eyes. [and she's got an endless line of "others"in all flavors behind her]
uncontrlable, insatiable ,passionate "lust".
2} {we'll call that feeling two]
lets say that your afraid of burning to death... it scares you a lot.
somebody just dumped a pail of gas all over you.. and a lit match is in the air on its way towards you.
unbridaled terror!
3} [we'll call that feeling three]
take one ,two and three mix them all together randomly in a Blender
never turn the blender off .... ever.
that is Torment
that is addiction.
And it all happens in the mind ,there is no drug that will kill you if you stop
only alchohol withdrawl can kill you.
the pain lives and breathes in the mind . [there are things that can torment a man much worse than a sore thumb.]
a feeling.........
Feelings are they real ? where's the Dogma come in?
I know "W" will not except a feeling as a miracle.
he's not an addict..........[no perspective]
But Torment wears many Hats...............
4 more "W"...
thx
Chet
Ramset, instead of creating nonsense examples, can you example at least one sensible dogma? Go ahead, take your all possible Holy Books and find one. Dogmas are created just for this purpose when answer cannot be sensible. See what this site says about dogmatism: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dogmatism (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dogmatism) :
dogmatism
1. a statement of a point of view as if it were an established fact.
2. the use of a system of ideas based upon insufficiently examined premises. â€"
dogmatist, n. â€"
dogmatic, adj.See also: Argumentation (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Argumentation)
Also, thesaurus:
| Noun | 1. | dogmatism - the intolerance and prejudice of a bigot
dogmatism
noun arrogance (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/arrogance), presumption (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/presumption), arbitrariness (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/arbitrariness), imperiousness (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/imperiousness), peremptoriness (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Peremptoriness), dictatorialness, opinionatedness (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/opinionated) Dogmatism cannot stand in the way of progress.
|
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma)
or just google these words.
Quote from: ramset on September 19, 2012, 05:32:44 AM
Feelings are they real ? where's the Dogma come in?
Feelings are real. All humans have them due to the way our brain has evolved. Animals have feelings too. But from this established fact, how do we get to (1) god created the universe, and/or (2) god intervenes in our daily lives? Why do feelings require god?
Now I am not saying I can prove conclusively that feelings are not coming from some kind of godly entity, but merely that there is no evidence to believe that this is true. So why believe a twisted, complicated version of reality that there is no evidence for?
Why do you believe feelings are miracles and not explained by known science?
Quote from: thx1138 on September 18, 2012, 07:34:32 PM
WDo you have any extant material proof that you have feelings?
another red herring?? ::)
Quote from: ramset on September 18, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
"W"
I see you are using a lot of Big words ["F" words too]
So far I see one "flavor" in your request " miracle rocks ".
4 more please.............
Thx
Chester
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetito... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: ramset on September 18, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
----------
As far as Scientific Rigor regarding what helps people in trouble with addiction.
I really don't like going to Funerals. and I have been running with the "Car Keys and the house wife" approach.
chetito... you idiot. we aren't talking about scientific rigor "regarding what helps people in trouble with addiction"... ::)
that whole line of discussion was one of your RED HERRING, NON COGENT replies... and thus, is irrelevant! how much more ignorant, stupid and belligerent can you be? and now you're lying as well?
this conversation is over... for the same reasons i stopped talking to you last time. i'm tired of reasoning with crazy people.
1. you have
no clue about logic and reason
2. you
refuse to learn.
3. you insist on responding
exclusively with logical fallacies.
" "W"
If your only possible examples of what you accept as proof of a creator
are little rock miracles?
Please put me back on your ignore list.
Thx
Chet
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 19, 2012, 10:11:37 AM
Why do you believe feelings are miracles and not explained by known science?
Well, not only "feelings" but the whole Science seems to be explainable only to some extent. Going deeper and deeper into the micro (and macro-) cosm, it become less and less clue. But the Science avoids dogma, it remains just "unexplainable"; religions are less scrupulous reserving dogmas which don't need explanation in such cases.
As I said before, "unanimated" or "dead" matter produces "animated" "life". But is it really so? Our senses see each chemical element as dead matter. In their nano levels however they vibrate, they possess electric/magnetic charges (free will? http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/35391/title/Math_Trek__Do_subatomic_particles_have_free_will%3F (http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/35391/title/Math_Trek__Do_subatomic_particles_have_free_will%3F)).
I guess, it still remains an open question how to explain unexplainable.
Quote from: ramset on September 19, 2012, 11:27:07 AM
" "W"
If your only possible examples of what you accept as proof of a creator
are little rock miracles?
Please put me back on your ignore list.
Thx
Chet
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetito... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: Qwert on September 19, 2012, 11:40:05 AM
But the Science avoids dogma, it remains just "unexplainable"; religions are less scrupulous reserving dogmas which don't need explanation in such cases.
...
I guess, it still remains an open question how to explain unexplainable.
I am not sure I understand. How do you know something is unexplainable or just currently unexplained? It is the job of science to take something unexplained and explain it. And the way it does it is through testing, reproducing trials, and so forth. Religion just takes a shortcut to "god did it".
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 19, 2012, 03:24:32 PM
I am not sure I understand. How do you know something is unexplainable or just currently unexplained? It is the job of science to take something unexplained and explain it. And the way it does it is through testing, reproducing trials, and so forth. Religion just takes a shortcut to "god did it".
As of the present the Science knows for example: what the matter consist of, what kind of forces are employed there; but still the Science doesn't know how to explain the origin of the forces and the true origin of the matter. Still the latest experiment to find the so-called "Bozon particle" (where from comes the mass if all its components don't have it?) remains unexplainable.
Many are still asking questions as to why massive, increasing earth changes are taking place. Recent case in point: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2012/09/19/antarctic-sea-ice-sets-another-record/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2012/09/19/antarctic-sea-ice-sets-another-record/) The sobering reasons for this and many other increasing earth changes, are hidden from most, as they refuse to use their God given abilities of observation to realize them. There exists a Huge Media Blackout regarding earth and moon orbital changes. See:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm)
The evidence is everywhere. Many have been witnessing the sun rising and setting ridiculously further than normal in summer for the last several years. Large quakes have been popping off like clockwork whenever the moon hits it’s new northern limit once a month. God’s Word pronounced these changes to the letter at Luke 21:25-28 and describes the signs in sun, moon and stars, as well as the shaking of the heavenly bodies, and the increasing agitation of the oceans, (Tsunami) at this time. Read Revelation 16:8 which also describes the pouring of the 4th bowl upon the sun, making it hot on earth, in conjunction with the world record shattering heat that the northern hemisphere has endured as of late. Who will argue with the evidence that the sun’s radiation has markedly increased? Of course antarctic sea ice has grown! The sun’s been much further north than was traditional for millenia. A couple years ago, Bolivia endured record shattering cold which killed off millions of fish and other tropical animals which were not equipped to handle temperatures colder than the south pole for much of July!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec27XJ1CgHA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec27XJ1CgHA)
You see, God is angry with our country, and the world at large….as we have defaulted to put in power above us, those who are His enemies! The proof that God’s Word is unfolding exactly as foretold, is everywhere.
Net search â€" Shriner Lucifer
Net search â€" D.C. Jerusalem masonic shrine
Net search â€" six pointed star mark beast
Net search â€" 666 talents of gold
http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/talmud-nwo.htm (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherryshriner.com%2Fsherry%2Ftalmud-nwo.htm&h=jAQF6qNU-&s=1)
Who is in power of the world at this time? The bible describes them and their mark to the letter! No other Book on the planet at any time comes close to the accuracy and Wisdom contained in God’s True Word.
Look and see that secret societies have founded their doctrines on the fallen solomon, who fell away from Yahweh, the One True Creator, and took the “Star of chemosh†as his personal seal, hence the “Seal of solomon†or the HEXagram. A geometric representation of 666. That is why the HEXagram is above the eagle on our dollar bill. It symbolizes, that they rule OVER America. Many soldiers have been asking why it is that on EVERY officer sword in the U.S. military, a HEXagram is now etched on every hilt. Why has MalWart changed it’s logo to a six pointed symbol? Note on Youtube that various videos of mobile guard towers are going up in MalWart parking lots at several locations in the south east.
The HEXagram IS the mark of the beast, as forewarned in God’s Word. Those who take this mark, or worship the beast will be allowed to buy or sell in the days ahead…..but will pay the ultimate price.
What is happening to heaven and earth itself at this time? Again, God’s Word is True. See the link below, as there is much evidence that Luke 21:25-28 is in fulfillment at this time, as is Revelation 16:8, and Isaiah 24:20 to be fulfilled soon enough!
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bibliotecapleyades.net%2Fciencia%2Fciencia_earthchanges31.htm&h=-AQEGKlT3&s=1)
Whose side are you on, dear reader? Your own? Lucifer’s by intentional action or paralytic inaction?
If you be of Christ Yeshua, then do as He commands and instead of sitting in silence with one’s head hanging low……â€STAND UP and LIFT UP your heads, for your REDEMPTION draws near!â€
The hour is truly late, and one had best turn or return to God in Christ Yeshua while there is yet time. And may He find you working what is good toward all upon His return!
Blessings in Christ
Quote from: TechStuf on September 19, 2012, 04:48:22 PM
Many are still asking questions as to why massive, increasing earth changes are taking place. Recent case in point: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2012/09/19/antarctic-sea-ice-sets-another-record/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2012/09/19/antarctic-sea-ice-sets-another-record/) The sobering reasons for this and many other increasing earth changes, are hidden from most, as they refuse to use their God given abilities of observation to realize them. There exists a Huge Media Blackout regarding earth and moon orbital changes. See:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm)
The evidence is everywhere. Many have been witnessing the sun rising and setting ridiculously further than normal in summer for the last several years. Large quakes have been popping off like clockwork whenever the moon hits it’s new northern limit once a month. God’s Word pronounced these changes to the letter at Luke 21:25-28 and describes the signs in sun, moon and stars, as well as the shaking of the heavenly bodies, and the increasing agitation of the oceans, (Tsunami) at this time. Read Revelation 16:8 which also describes the pouring of the 4th bowl upon the sun, making it hot on earth, in conjunction with the world record shattering heat that the northern hemisphere has endured as of late. Who will argue with the evidence that the sun’s radiation has markedly increased? Of course antarctic sea ice has grown! The sun’s been much further north than was traditional for millenia. A couple years ago, Bolivia endured record shattering cold which killed off millions of fish and other tropical animals which were not equipped to handle temperatures colder than the south pole for much of July!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec27XJ1CgHA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec27XJ1CgHA)
You see, God is angry with our country, and the world at large….as we have defaulted to put in power above us, those who are His enemies! The proof that God’s Word is unfolding exactly as foretold, is everywhere.
Net search â€" Shriner Lucifer
Net search â€" D.C. Jerusalem masonic shrine
Net search â€" six pointed star mark beast
Net search â€" 666 talents of gold
http://www.sherryshriner.com/sherry/talmud-nwo.htm (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sherryshriner.com%2Fsherry%2Ftalmud-nwo.htm&h=jAQF6qNU-&s=1)
Who is in power of the world at this time? The bible describes them and their mark to the letter! No other Book on the planet at any time comes close to the accuracy and Wisdom contained in God’s True Word.
Look and see that secret societies have founded their doctrines on the fallen solomon, who fell away from Yahweh, the One True Creator, and took the “Star of chemosh†as his personal seal, hence the “Seal of solomon†or the HEXagram. A geometric representation of 666. That is why the HEXagram is above the eagle on our dollar bill. It symbolizes, that they rule OVER America. Many soldiers have been asking why it is that on EVERY officer sword in the U.S. military, a HEXagram is now etched on every hilt. Why has MalWart changed it’s logo to a six pointed symbol? Note on Youtube that various videos of mobile guard towers are going up in MalWart parking lots at several locations in the south east.
The HEXagram IS the mark of the beast, as forewarned in God’s Word. Those who take this mark, or worship the beast will be allowed to buy or sell in the days ahead…..but will pay the ultimate price.
What is happening to heaven and earth itself at this time? Again, God’s Word is True. See the link below, as there is much evidence that Luke 21:25-28 is in fulfillment at this time, as is Revelation 16:8, and Isaiah 24:20 to be fulfilled soon enough!
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_earthchanges31.htm (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bibliotecapleyades.net%2Fciencia%2Fciencia_earthchanges31.htm&h=-AQEGKlT3&s=1)
Whose side are you on, dear reader? Your own? Lucifer’s by intentional action or paralytic inaction?
If you be of Christ Yeshua, then do as He commands and instead of sitting in silence with one’s head hanging low……â€STAND UP and LIFT UP your heads, for your REDEMPTION draws near!â€
The hour is truly late, and one had best turn or return to God in Christ Yeshua while there is yet time. And may He find you working what is good toward all upon His return!
Blessings in Christ
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than chetito the clown, you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
what is it with you faithers and your obstinate refusal to use logic and reason?
Quote from: Qwert on September 19, 2012, 03:57:52 PM
As of the present the Science knows for example: what the matter consist of, what kind of forces are employed there; but still the Science doesn't know how to explain the origin of the forces and the true origin of the matter. Still the latest experiment to find the so-called "Bozon particle" (where from comes the mass if all its components don't have it?) remains unexplainable.
So you propose Science just give it up and say "god did it", and research ends there?
EA quote
So you propose Science just give it up and say "god did it", and research ends there?
end quote
No I hope God walks up to W''s house...pulls a rock outa thin air ...levitates its incalculable weight before his Ho Hum Eyes and drops it on his barbeque.
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on September 19, 2012, 06:06:40 PM
EA quote
So you propose Science just give it up and say "god did it", and research ends there?
God or Nature, it's like the same notion in different languages; one "nation" calls it God, another say "Nature". Research does not end there. Science does not have an explanation right now, it's still searching and looking for an explanation, I guess. And religions of course had explanation long time ago: almighty God.
Anyway, does anybody here knows why, despite that the Bible has many examples of propheting, the church stubbornly fights the notion of prophecy (i.e. palmistry, astrology etc...)?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 19, 2012, 05:47:12 PM
So you propose Science just give it up and say "god did it", and research ends there?
Somebody has created this universe with some properties. Science is just finding out those properties through experimentation and research and building machines based on those properties of matter and field. But sofar science has failed to explain origin of these properties. Science is just explaining 'how they are' but not 'why they are' like that. Even if the scientists conduct research for another thousand years they will not be able to explain because what explanation they would give on things (matter & field) which donot exist at all. (illusion)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 18, 2012, 12:14:20 PM
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods chetito... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual red herring logical fallacies. you are no different than tito the clown you dunce.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
chetito... that's because you haven't a clue as to what constitutes the scientific method... ::)
bring your imaginary godfairy savior friend over for bbq on fri. sept. 21 2012... we can have some eats and then your godfairy can create a rock (from nothing) that is too heavy to lift... and then your godfairy can lift said rock. do that and i'll bend my knee.
until then... the ahh... the idea of kneeling, it's... you see, logically kicking the shit out of all your asinine, fantastical claims has left a nasty cramp in my leg... so kneeling will be hard for me...
i hold your sins bound. that's how i roll now...
Sorry "W" cause we cannot rely on Scientific method. The bible say just believe and have faith in JESUS to be save. a very simple requirement that you can't get because of your hard heart and hard headed and hypocracy.
JESUS coming too soon if you will just believe when you see him then you will not pass the test cause it is more better to him if you believe him though you didn't see him. That is faith.
Now you just follow the fallacy in your face and try to non sequitur your nose to find your brilliancy method of research! ;D joke
okay! okay! okay!
LETS STOP FALLACY :D
LETS BE FRIENDS NOW OKAY CAUSE WE ARE ALL CAME FROM GOD ACCEPT IT OR NOT AND WE ARE ALL BROTHERS
THOUGH YOU ARE ON EVIL SIDE ;D
WELL JUST WAIT FOR JESUS AND SEE WHOSE RIGHT. RIGHT?
OTITS L. NOICARO THE SEQUITUR ;D
the iliad, book XXII 163-175
Then looking darkly at him swift-footed Achilleus answered:
"Hektor, argue me no agreements. I cannot forgive you.
As there are no trustworthy oaths between men and lions,
nor wolves and lambs have spirit that can be brought to agreement
but forever these hold feelings of hate for each other,
so there can be no love between you and me, nor shall there be
oaths between us, but one or the other must fall before then
to glut with his blood Ares the god who fights under the shield's guard.
Remember every valor of yours, for now the need comes
hardest upon you to be a spearman and a bold warrior.
There shall be no more escape for you, but Pallas Athene
will kill you soon by my spear. You will pay in a lump for all these
sorrows of my companions you killed in your spear's fury."
PROOF of the god ares, the goddess pallas athene and zeus...
Teets
I think a big part of the problem here is the churches /religions pick and chose things to "focus on" and segregate the rest of the people as "comdemned".
Makes some folks physically I'll to even look at this Hypocracy.
What happened to Love one another ??
Like Q said "what happened to prophesie" and such?[just one of many examples]
Suppose Tito went over to "W's" Barbeque and took "W s" mountain and
thru it into his Pond ?
What would "W" make of that ?
would Tito join the ranks of the 2500?
All things are possible....
Yeah I believe that !
I am still learning Tho ...and I keep an open heart and mind.
One thing is certain, whatevers going on is really flying along ATM.
You better hold on to that Spatula real tight "W".
Thx
Chet
PS
W
some of the boys offered to Pay for "Charm school"?
You need to feel The Love a bit !
And not The "frogs and Chimps " kind.
Unfortunately, some people look emotional, but it's a disaster when they become abusive when they see that others are not so easy target to buy their arguments.
Quote from: ramset on September 20, 2012, 09:06:05 AM
W
some of the boys offered to Pay for "Charm school"?
really? well that's not surprising... stupid is as stupid does.
Quote from: ramset on September 20, 2012, 09:06:05 AM
You need to feel The Love a bit !
And not The "frogs and Chimps " kind.
you need to present a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend!
and not the un-cogent or illogical kind... ::)
Quote from: Newton II on September 19, 2012, 08:38:07 PM
Somebody has created this universe with some properties.
and what extant material evidence or logical proof do you have to substantiate this latest asinine claim of yours? i'll wait... ::)
OHHHhh
OmnibusWillnebrious
We'll just have to wait a little for your material evidence I suppose.......
Thx
Chetito
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 20, 2012, 11:17:42 AM
and what extant material evidence or logical proof do you have to substantiate this latest asinine claim of yours? i'll wait... ::)
Eh, I think they are all trolling you now, because they know how to push your buttons. Nobody really believes in god anymore anyway, so they can't be serious.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 20, 2012, 12:58:15 PM
Eh, I think they are all trolling you now
no, they are not. they are actually that stupid...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 20, 2012, 01:02:31 PM
no, they are not. they are actually that stupid...
Why these extant material evidence logical proof stupids call their parents mummy & daddy unless they conduct DNA test and confirm it? Is it faith or something else?
(I apologise for asking this question)
Studying Contract Law and Adoption Law I came to this conclusion of the existance of The Eternal One, The Everliving Father of creation
http://wilhoit-az.com/mark/strawman/law/Characteristics%20of%20status-1_1600X1267.jpg (http://wilhoit-az.com/mark/strawman/law/Characteristics%20of%20status-1_1600X1267.jpg)
some reasearch is at my site
Trolling alert
Normally amongst the clinically Sane ...when there is a debate "Stats" hold weight.
however When someone holds a Hopeless ByAss .
This is not the case.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx)
Thx
Chet
PS
Its just mostly Ignorant americans that seem to believe [not lesberals it seems]
There's still 2 % that belong To the EBA "W" Club.
Quote from: ramset on September 20, 2012, 04:56:26 PM
Trolling alert
Normally amongst the clinically Sane ...when there is a debate "Stats" hold weight.
however When someone holds a Hopeless ByAss .
This is not the case.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx)
Thx
Chet
PS
Its just mostly Ignorant americans that seem to believe [not lesberals it seems]
There's still 2 % that belong To the EBA "W" Club.
You can't poll for truth. Truth exists independent of consensus.
EB
Since when Do Statistics have anything to do with truth, its a survey of the population.
Its just Raw data.....
Gallop does a fair job !
if you don't agree with it ,do you own Poll.
However ,to call People Names and Bolster your argument with insults usually indicates a weakness in your own argument.
The fact is statistically speaking the extreme majority don't rule out
a creator.
The extreme minority have another opinion and use Vulgarity and insults to purvey their point of view on this forum .
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on September 20, 2012, 06:05:23 PM
EB
Since when Do Statistics have anything to do with truth, its a survey of the population.
Its just Raw data.....
Well that's true. But back to the topic, which is the probability of god's existence, a poll will not help with that.
Anyway, if people want to believe in god, I do not care so much, as long as they do not legislate their beliefs upon others.
The believers seem to have a singular position as far as evidence. Their evidence is the existence of this universe and the life in it. But this is not good evidence for the "creation" theory. It is merely a conjecture. There are an infinite number of other conjectures about this and there are also some theories that are consistent with the laws of science.
To make matters worse, somehow people jump from "well, the universe must have had a creator" to the Bible is true and there is a god who cares about us and intervenes in our daily lives. There is no evidence for any of this whatsoever, even if you happen to believe that the universe had a creator.
If you take the idea that God is everything and everything is God literally, then it follows that the word God is a symbol for the totality of existence taken as a whole. That would include everything we know and feel emotionally and see and touch and feel physically, whether it is extant or not. It also includes that which we cannot see or touch of feel in the physical sense and everything we have yet to discover and have no knowledge of. If you take that as the definition of God then the extant evidence is all around us whether or not we can sense it. Looking at the Milky Way on a clear night or at cells under a microscope or the computer monitor in front of you is the extant proof of God.
That God is benevolent is evidenced by the fact that we exist at all in a universe so violent that mere exposure to it without the protection of the atmosphere which is maintained by the magnetic field of the planet to dilute the cosmic rays' energy and that of the solar wind will cause you to cease to exist as a human being. God is benevolent to life on this planet because the totality of existence has come together in a way that caused life to arise and, to this point, be sustained. The fact that life is sustained is the proof that God has a hand in your daily life.
Note, however, that all of this is subject to change. One single gama ray burst from the cosmos could wipe all of this out in a wink. So let us say that God has been benevolent up to this point.
In my opinion there is no reason that the totality of existence had to have a beginning or that it will have an end. If it had no beginning, it had no creator. It just is, has always been, and will always be - with or without the existance of man to philosophize about it.
To get back to alternative energy and considering the days of Dr. Tesla, one might say that God is aether and aether is God. All that exists is one infinite piece. Nothing can be taken from it. It cannot be destroyed. Nothing can be added to it. It cannot be created. We can only change what is already there.
Seemed relevant.
To all atheist, I dedicate this one to all of you, love you all brother ;)
http://www.christistheway.com/2001/a01a07aa.html (http://www.christistheway.com/2001/a01a07aa.html)
Your main opponent now is your conscience, and that is GOD!
YOU CANNOT HIDE! :)
WALK BY FAITH NOT! BY SIGHT! OK ;)
@Tito
Yeah it's your nemesis here.
"Your main opponent now is your conscience, and that is GOD!"
Well isn't this priceless...this from someone who's been telling everyone that HE THE ALMIGHTY TITO has the answer to overunity and will not tell anyone on this OVERUNITY SITE how to do it....ROFLMAO
Meanwhile over 6 million people die every year for lack of energy to save their lives.....
Yeah I'm really impressed with your words Tito....
Later dude....
Quote from: Goat on September 21, 2012, 12:01:21 AM
@Tito
Yeah it's your nemesis here.
"Your main opponent now is your conscience, and that is GOD!"
Well isn't this priceless...this from someone who's been telling everyone that HE THE ALMIGHTY TITO has the answer to overunity and will not tell anyone on this OVERUNITY SITE how to do it....ROFLMAO
Meanwhile over 6 million people die every year for lack of energy to save their lives.....
Yeah I'm really impressed with your words Tito....
Later dude....
But IF Tito did show you a real, true OU device, would you listen to him more if he said God was real then? ;]
MaGs
Quote from: Magluvin on September 21, 2012, 12:56:56 AM
But IF Tito did show you a real, true OU device, would you listen to him more if he said God was real then? ;]
MaGs
no. not unless he had at least a single shred of extant evidence and/or a logical proof... it doesn't matter if chetito shits golden eggs... or says leprechauns are real. ::)
get some reason mags... ;)
you seem to be able to apply it everywhere except where your imaginary godfairy is concerned... why is that?
@Mags
If Tito had shown us his overunity device and how to replicate it I wouldn't be here, I'd be saving lives! Not Bible Thumping...
I was born Christian and am leaning more towards aetheism every day because of people like Tito and all the rest of the greedy bunch that are spewing BS and not helping those in need.
Regards,
Paul
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 21, 2012, 01:10:54 AM
no. not unless he had at least a single shred of extant evidence and/or a logical proof... it doesn't matter if chetito shits golden eggs... or says leprechauns are real. ::)
get some reason mags... ;)
you seem to be able to apply it everywhere except where your imaginary godfairy is concerned... why is that?
Well, lets say Tito has been claiming OU for what 4 years now. And lets say, that all of a sudden, he now finally posts a working , simple device.
For 4 years, some people have beat him down about it, even me at some points and times. :o :o Some still are patient and friendly, always have been.
So here we are(hypothetically) Titos big reveal. After all that time, and then he finally shows and tells. Naturally, under careful examination and testing showing that it works and is all good, there will be 'true' believers in OU and in Tito. Sure there will be your MileHigh's that will diehard dispute it even though all his family and friends are running free energy packs and he is still on the grid. :o ;) Sorry M, but .... ;D
So now, I can see that many want to thank Tito and be his friend, The good ones and some bad ones, because since now all know that Tito wasnt bluffing and that this whole time it was truth, then there is good chance to believe that he has other and better ideas, 'just like he claims'. Hey, if the duck says it can lay golden eggs, and pops one out for ya, and then the duck says, hey, how about platinum? pop. lol
So there would be an uprising in the belief in Titos 'words', because he would be known to be honest about something that others would let greed take over.
Like, which one is the "good' guy, the one that gives FE to all for free, or the one that wants paid? Sure, they both could be good, but one is more good. ;]
So now Tito releases a better ou device, one that is different from the first, for all to have knowledge of. Then Tito says he has the MacDaddy 1.1 giggawatt lunchbox device.
He says he will release the info by the weekend.
The weekend comes and he says he cannot put out that device because his brother told him not to. ;]
At this time(again hypothetically) would you believe that Tito does have the latest lunchbox device, even though he didnt show it to you yet? What if it were weeks later and no show, would you wait another 4 years for it? Would you think of him as a liar when it comes to this lunchbox device, after not getting to 'witness' it after all that time?
But no, Tito really does show the lunchbox device on the weekend he promised.
If he 'did' do these hypothetical reveals, 1 or all 3, how strong would your belief in OU be then? Or of Tito?
And after the 3 reveal, Tito tells us, this coming weekend, I will tell you about God.
Would you be interested in what he had to say? ;)
MaGzimus Laviticus ;]
Mags
Miserable is as miserable does.
I suppose people put things in front of them and tell themselves Someday when I get that [rich... retired...the prettier girl the bigger house the smaller house the faster car the better Boat... ETc ETc ,,,,,,,,Adnauseum infinitDUM..........] or this I will be really happy.
Some folks think they'll finally be happy when they get OU
I even betcha Tito thought it was the Golden pearl of happiness!
I know I did.
Its that big empty place that insatiable Longing that lead me to search for my creator.
And I still am...perhaps this is unique to peeps like me?
I don't know ..but one thing I do know is "W" sounds like one of the most miserable self centered Egotistical Peeps I have ever read on these pages.
He don't come accross all Happy nor would he place real importance on that anymore [been there done that myself].
I search for God every day ,I pray everyday., I'm finding out I don't have to wait for "someday" to be happy or do something good for my fellow man.
I hope I can get this OU thing working right.........But my happiness can not hinge on that!!
Mags you are an amazingly dedicated and sincere man.
Proud to know you Bud!!
Thx
Chet
PS
just as Ghost said
Tito's behavior does not jive with my views on what a man of God would do with this gift of OU.
I would love to hear what he has to say about God , OU, and what to do...
Or maybe behind the scenesHe is doing what a man of God should do with this Gift?
I don't Know ? But he's not showing a very Godly Face here !
except to preach at how others should behave.
I have views on what to do!
Love one another.....
Good ....Do Good Not business...
@eatenbyArque
Being a man such as yourself [with out God or need of such] is being happy important to you ?
are you happy?
I am being completely Sincere here...
Unlike miracle Rocks ... for myself The probability of God has hit much closer to home not even a stones throw away.
I am really trying to understand your position.....
your handle and your behavior here suggests something... however I do not Judge another man nor his intentions.
it gets me in trouble.
thx
Free your mind.
http://hackersclub.net/science/spiritual-science/5-biography-of-ernest-holmes
Follow the white rabbit.
8)
Ghost
Quick question about your link, Keeping an open mind is what we should always do.
what kind of Works did he advocate? would the folks that follow his "beliefs"
stand out in this world? Doing for others and such?
I suppose my real question is ,was he a man of action or words ,self or selfless ?
Is this a fair question?
I'm not saying anything about this Guy .. its just that to many Peeps
Follow this "Love" and that" light" ...
but they step over the kid on the sidewalk on their way to "Church".
would you know them by their works?
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Magluvin on September 21, 2012, 01:57:57 AM
Well, lets say Tito has been claiming OU for what 4 years now. And lets say, that all of a sudden, he now finally posts a working , simple device.
For 4 years, some people have beat him down about it, even me at some points and times. :o :o Some still are patient and friendly, always have been.
So here we are(hypothetically) Titos big reveal. After all that time, and then he finally shows and tells. Naturally, under careful examination and testing showing that it works and is all good, there will be 'true' believers in OU and in Tito. Sure there will be your MileHigh's that will diehard dispute it even though all his family and friends are running free energy packs and he is still on the grid. :o ;) Sorry M, but .... ;D
So now, I can see that many want to thank Tito and be his friend, The good ones and some bad ones, because since now all know that Tito wasnt bluffing and that this whole time it was truth, then there is good chance to believe that he has other and better ideas, 'just like he claims'. Hey, if the duck says it can lay golden eggs, and pops one out for ya, and then the duck says, hey, how about platinum? pop. lol
So there would be an uprising in the belief in Titos 'words', because he would be known to be honest about something that others would let greed take over.
Like, which one is the "good' guy, the one that gives FE to all for free, or the one that wants paid? Sure, they both could be good, but one is more good. ;]
So now Tito releases a better ou device, one that is different from the first, for all to have knowledge of. Then Tito says he has the MacDaddy 1.1 giggawatt lunchbox device.
He says he will release the info by the weekend.
The weekend comes and he says he cannot put out that device because his brother told him not to. ;]
At this time(again hypothetically) would you believe that Tito does have the latest lunchbox device, even though he didnt show it to you yet? What if it were weeks later and no show, would you wait another 4 years for it? Would you think of him as a liar when it comes to this lunchbox device, after not getting to 'witness' it after all that time?
But no, Tito really does show the lunchbox device on the weekend he promised.
If he 'did' do these hypothetical reveals, 1 or all 3, how strong would your belief in OU be then? Or of Tito?
And after the 3 reveal, Tito tells us, this coming weekend, I will tell you about God.
Would you be interested in what he had to say? ;)
MaGzimus Laviticus ;]
no i wouldn't be interested in the least... UNLESS he had some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof.
for you see magudas iscariot... that would be a logical fallacy. isaac newton had blind faith in some imaginary godfairy savior friend and isaac newton defined the law of universal gravitation. should i throw out everything newton ever said because of his blind faith in imaginary godfaries? no. that would be a logical fallacy. JUST AS IT WOULD BE IF I ACCEPTED EVERYTHING TITO SAID ABOUT ANYTHING SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT ONE UNRELATED THING... ::)
again... get some reason... you have no problem applying it to any and everything EXCEPT your imaginary godfairy savior friend... and that's sad. your indoctrination is complete...
and finally... 'good' is subjective... what is 'good' to one person may not be 'good' to another.
now, magudas iscariot... in the interest of demonstrating your respect for and adherence to the scientific method; please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review. thank you for your cooperation. failure to do so will be accepted as a tacit admission that you have not applied the scientific method to your imaginary godfairy (or any others) and are operating on nothing but blind faith.
Quote from: ramset on September 21, 2012, 09:56:58 AM
Ghost
Quick question about your link, Keeping an open mind is what we should always do.
what kind of Works did he advocate? would the folks that follow his "beliefs"
stand out in this world? Doing for others and such?
I suppose my real question is ,was he a man of action or words ,self or selfless ?
Is this a fair question?
I'm not saying anything about this Guy .. its just that to many Peeps
Follow this "Love" and that" light" ...
but they step over the kid on the sidewalk on their way to "Church".
would you know them by their works?
Thx
Chet
well all i can say is i think he was a good man.
you can search online for a more in depth biography on him, here's one example http://religiousscience.us/holmes.htm
i rather you read it for yourself. most if not all religious scientists are self taught, sure its good to have someone teach you along the way but it all comes down to you doing your own research, doing your own homework, and help your self. since im not a teacher yet i rather point you the way instead of teaching you the way the science of mind works.
i can say it has worked for me very well. im still new to this and still learning, so far i have no complaints. sometimes things don't make since to me, but in the end when I connect all the dots i see the light and im glad i wasn't so fast to disregard it. i guess you can say its the question that drives me to the answers. anyway im rambling now lol.
and regarding the kid being stepped on, well i couldn't agree more, its wrong!
laters dude
p.s. i recommend you start you journey here: http://hackersclub.net/science/spiritual-science/5-biography-of-ernest-holmes few free online teachings/books also available there.
Quote from: ramset on September 21, 2012, 09:56:58 AM
Ghost
Quick question about your link, Keeping an open mind is what we should always do.
what kind of Works did he advocate? would the folks that follow his "beliefs"
stand out in this world? Doing for others and such?
...
I guess, you could get the same concerns about any religious writings, including the Bible. It clearly shows that your concerns are on the bases "could I benefit reading this stuff?"
Could I benefit reading the Bible? Yet it (nomen-omen) promotes wars: only rcently, Nazis used religion for their purposes to justify the war (Gott mit uns - God with us), recently Moslems use it for alike purposes. And in the Bible: heard about the land of Canaan? "On God's order" they (Israelites (?)) exterminate the whole small nation, the land of Canaan; they initiate their own state there. There are more crimes "on God's order" throughout the Bible. Yet you seem a good, gentle guy, despite these horror examples...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 21, 2012, 10:41:15 AM
no i wouldn't be interested in the least... UNLESS he had some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof.
for you see magudas iscariot... that would be a logical fallacy. isaac newton had blind faith in some imaginary godfairy savior friend and isaac newton defined the law of universal gravitation. should i throw out everything newton ever said because of his blind faith in imaginary godfaries? no. that would be a logical fallacy. JUST AS IT WOULD BE IF I ACCEPTED EVERYTHING TITO SAID ABOUT ANYTHING SIMPLY BECAUSE HE WAS RIGHT ABOUT ONE UNRELATED THING... ::)
again... get some reason... you have no problem applying it to any and everything EXCEPT your imaginary godfairy savior friend... and that's sad. your indoctrination is complete...
and finally... 'good' is subjective... what is 'good' to one person may not be 'good' to another.
now, magudas iscariot... in the interest of demonstrating your respect for and adherence to the scientific method; please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review. thank you for your cooperation. failure to do so will be accepted as a tacit admission that you have not applied the scientific method to your imaginary godfairy (or any others) and are operating on nothing but blind faith.
Upon reflection, if these guys are not trolls, they are lost causes. You would be better off discussing things at patheos.com or something similar. These guys cannot get past even the simplest objections to theism. They are stuck on "well how do you know there isn't one, look at all these things I cannot explain without god, plus god makes me feel good." I suspect this approach is what stifles them in their quests for free energy gravity motors.
So eatin
your miserable also? Is it so bad to be good or happy??
Us simpler folk love to play with the OU fairy...
She plays with the lightning Fairy,.. the one who sends the power through our atmosphere.
------
You know that completely sane mindset that says there's only one way to harvest electricity from this world of thunder and lightning .
She told me its a lie [snicker].
She's one of "w's" 2500 lesser deity's.
"W" is a self annointed apostle of the degenerate pasta entity known as the spagetti monster.
also a subspecies of MH's lesser spooner guy deity.
so we all have our little vices and indulgences
you gotta problem wit dat??
?
Thx
Chet
PS
Qwert
I sorta have to read thru Ghost's article now.....
but I don't really limit the almighty to just one Box this is his creation and I'm surprised peeps feel they can just keep him in one box?
Nor do I hold him responsible for all the nasty stuff men do !
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 21, 2012, 03:49:42 PM
Upon reflection, if these guys are not trolls, they are lost causes. You would be better off discussing things at patheos.com or something similar. These guys cannot get past even the simplest objections to theism. They are stuck on "well how do you know there isn't one, look at all these things I cannot explain without god, plus god makes me feel good." I suspect this approach is what stifles them in their quests for free energy gravity motors.
indeed they are lost causes. i'm honestly surprised one of them hasn't posted chapter and verse about how 'every knee shall bend' yet... ::)
and yet they prattle on with their 'god makes me feel good' logically fallacious arguments... it's disgustingly pathetic.
Lesmiserables
Men without smiles
los sufferomuchos
The trilogy of suffering is almost complete.........
What an Honor to be amongst such Martyrs.!
Spankyou very much
Chet
Ps
This one is for "dances with sadness"
a gravity motor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghL6KJD3EWg&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghL6KJD3EWg&feature=plcp)
Quote from: Goat on September 21, 2012, 12:01:21 AM
@Tito
Yeah it's your nemesis here.
"Your main opponent now is your conscience, and that is GOD!"
Well isn't this priceless...this from someone who's been telling everyone that HE THE ALMIGHTY TITO has the answer to overunity and will not tell anyone on this OVERUNITY SITE how to do it....ROFLMAO
Meanwhile over 6 million people die every year for lack of energy to save their lives.....
Yeah I'm really impressed with your words Tito....
Later dude....
:(
oh buddy i understand you about what you mean.
ya there is a battle in me about the FE with GOD but as mush as possible i'm trying to share what is important and that is
saving human soul and what you want is to save human body which is temporary. God has reasons why millions are dying.
Now what is important, Body or soul? Think! >:(
@mags
Thanks buddy. there is really a financial crisis happening in me currently and i am really want to sell what i have, and i'm considering some dangers too.
but maybe someday in God's willing i can share that thing freely for everyone.
goat is right there is really a battle in me and i can't share it right now sorry.
@wilby
Walk with faith not by sight always remember that buddy.
do not lean on your own understanding be humble to God. HE is real cause i experience it. don't be too late buddy there is still chance while we are alive.
God bless everyone love you all :)
Tito L. Oracion
Quote from: Ghost on September 21, 2012, 06:57:39 AM
Free your mind.
http://hackersclub.net/science/spiritual-science/5-biography-of-ernest-holmes (http://hackersclub.net/science/spiritual-science/5-biography-of-ernest-holmes)
Follow the white rabbit.
8)
Don't just follow use some coconut and read the bible and be humble. :D
ok!, if your eyes are good
you can see the secret here. 8)
http://www.rexresearch.com/moray2/morayrer.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/moray2/morayrer.htm)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 21, 2012, 09:53:29 PM
@wilby
Walk with faith not by sight always remember that buddy.
do not lean on your own understanding be humble to God. HE is real cause i experience it. don't be too late buddy there is still chance while we are alive.
which god?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 15, 2012, 11:56:14 PM
But first off, you should read/listen to Krauss's talk about the universe from nothing.
He is telling that nothing is not nothing. When nothing is not nothing why do you call it nothing? You can very well call it ether or God.
Anyway just read this book. It gives a general picture of nature of matter without involving complicated equations of quantum mechanics. I think any
student of science who is interested in knowing nature of matter should read this book.
http://www.certified-easy.com/aa.php?isbn=ISBN:0898755816&name=ABC's_of_Quantum_Mechanics
Quote from: Newton II on September 22, 2012, 02:42:34 AM
He is telling that nothing is not nothing. When nothing is not nothing why do you call it nothing? You can very well call it ether or God.
Calling something god implies an agency - a sentient, purposeful entity. Or I could call my chair god. I know it exists, at least.
Yes Tito
Which God?
Perhaps you should join "W's" pasta Church,They pretty much believe
"every man for your self" stuff....
Or You could become a spooner ?[the ones with the big Spoons that stuff their faces with spagetti and talk on the puter all day ]
Yeah you sound like your from La La land [where the trilogy of sadness resides]...you keep going like that and you'll become one of the Lesmiserables
yeah you have more in common with spooners and pasta entities!
---------------------------------------------------------
lets talk about this ""La La Land"" !!
Something real basic, like La La land and S_E_X
In La La land S_E_X is everywhere, its a no holds barred affair where nobody tells anybody how when, where, why, Etc adnauseum and the other infinityone.
BLISS !!
Oh and in La La land they can have a no strings attached deal Too
If it feels good do it Baby YEAH !!
Oh whats that..... your pregnant Wow must suck to be you....
just get an abortion or just give it away.....
come on lets go get some more drugs and beer ...lets have some fun ...
this feels to good to be bad....
So life goes on in LA LA Land, days pass years pass ,the thrill of S_E_X gets old and weird
[they try everything, every flavor all manor of "No holds barred" stuff ].
not gettin that wonderful feeling anymore .they start to do more drugs and booze and whatever, still something feels BAD ....
eventually in La La Land they have to build lots of prisons ,because it turns out
something is very wrong ,they can't sleep at night they can't get "happy" anymore.
what they have done and how they live "haunts" them.
So they take more Drugs
because of the drugs thet take to "feel better" A lot of them can't get jobs ...in La La Land you don't really have to do anything anyway ...not even work they can just fill out a few forms tell a few lies and all is well in La La land[but thats a whole nother subject].
Sure they start breaking into homes and stealing but lesmiserables build big prisons and
get alarms and insurance [they got it covered].
============
Talk about a fairy tale You can keep La La land boys and girls.....
let the miserables have it ,they want to legislate God right outta their world.
problem is I get to see and hear the men and woman from La La Land
and all their kids Too, with all their horror stories and messed up lives ....
it makes me puke...
they are completely Bankrupt. No spirit ,no Morals,No Values
But I used to live their Too
So we talk and they realize they have been living in La La land [they didn't know].
------
It takes faith to live in La La Land ,Faith in your rules faith in your fellow man. its a no holds barred ,we make the rules world without God .
you Peeps that live in La La land better wake up ,because if the bars ever come off your cages ??
Your Fairytale lives are gonna get real, real ugly.
just one mans observation/opinion from the trenches outside of La La Land.
thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on September 22, 2012, 07:12:11 AM
Yes Tito
Which God?
Perhaps you should join "W's" pasta Church,They pretty much believe
"every man for your self" stuff....
Or You could become a spooner ?[the ones with the big Spoons that stuff their faces with spagetti and talk on the puter all day ]
Yeah you sound like your from La La land [where the trilogy of sadness resides]...you keep going like that and you'll become one of the Lesmiserables
yeah you have more in common with spooners and pasta entities!
---------------------------------------------------------
lets talk about this ""La La Land"" !!
Something real basic, like La La land and S_E_X
In La La land S_E_X is everywhere, its a no holds barred affair where nobody tells anybody how when, where, why, Etc adnauseum and the other infinityone.
BLISS !!
Oh and in La La land they can have a no strings attached deal Too
If it feels good do it Baby YEAH !!
Oh whats that..... your pregnant Wow must suck to be you....
just get an abortion or just give it away.....
come on lets go get some more drugs and beer ...lets have some fun ...
this feels to good to be bad....
So life goes on in LA LA Land, days pass years pass ,the thrill of S_E_X gets old and weird
[they try everything, every flavor all manor of "No holds barred" stuff ].
not gettin that wonderful feeling anymore .they start to do more drugs and booze and whatever, still something feels BAD ....
eventually in La La Land they have to build lots of prisons ,because it turns out
something is very wrong ,they can't sleep at night they can't get "happy" anymore.
what they have done and how they live "haunts" them.
So they take more Drugs
because of the drugs thet take to "feel better" A lot of them can't get jobs ...in La La Land you don't really have to do anything anyway ...not even work they can just fill out a few forms tell a few lies and all is well in La La land[but thats a whole nother subject].
Sure they start breaking into homes and stealing but lesmiserables build big prisons and
get alarms and insurance [they got it covered].
============
Talk about a fairy tale You can keep La La land boys and girls.....
let the miserables have it ,they want to legislate God right outta their world.
problem is I get to see and hear the men and woman from La La Land
and all their kids Too, with all their horror stories and messed up lives ....
it makes me puke...
they are completely Bankrupt. No spirit ,no Morals,No Values
But I used to live their Too
So we talk and they realize they have been living in La La land [they didn't know].
------
It takes faith to live in La La Land ,Faith in your rules faith in your fellow man. its a no holds barred ,we make the rules world without God .
you Peeps that live in La La land better wake up ,because if the bars ever come off your cages ??
Your Fairytale lives are gonna get real, real ugly.
just one mans observation/opinion from the trenches outside of La La Land.
thx
Chet
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH...
chetito + internet connection + keyboard = logically fallacious word salad.
you didn't provide the methods you used to falsify all the other gods chetito... nor did you provide the method you used to validate yours... ::)
it's funny that you are so self righteous, pretentious and so sanctimonious as to accuse non-faithers of low morals when america's prisons are full to the brim with faithers like you. 99.98% of people in prison are faithers just like you... idiot. ::)
once again you've demonstrated you complete lack of reason, logic and accountability. people like you are the reason i despise faithers. go pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on September 22, 2012, 03:32:28 AM
Calling something god implies an agency - a sentient, purposeful entity. Or I could call my chair god. I know it exists, at least.
Where does that chair come from? Nothing but something?
Yes "W"
I know ...all the prisons in La La Land are filled with "Faithers".
Well "you do you" "W" [thats Bighouse Faither talk]
till next time.....
Thx
Chet
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 22, 2012, 10:58:25 AM
just like you... idiot. ::)
I guess... in democracy, there is enough room for people with different ideas; why using invectives? Its obvious that always only one idea is the positive one. There are nations, which still don't have democracy; we see the effects of that today in the Middle East where religious fundamentalists govern. Are you people living there? You cannot live without humiliating others?
Quote from: Newton II on September 22, 2012, 12:11:04 PM
Where does that chair come from? Nothing but something?
If you want to reduce god to the mass of the universe, go ahead. But this is not anything to worship. It is not sentient and does not care about us.
Quote from: Qwert on September 22, 2012, 01:14:13 PM
I guess... in democracy, there is enough room for people with different ideas; why using invectives? Its obvious that always only one idea is the positive one. There are nations, which still don't have democracy; we see the effects of that today in the Middle East where religious fundamentalists govern. Are you people living there? You cannot live without humiliating others?
because he repeats the same logical fallacies OVER AND OVER... ::)
because he says i'm morally bankrupt... ::)
because he considers me a sinner... ::)
BECAUSE HE DEMONSTRATES IT POST AFTER POST AFTER POST...
IF IT LOOKS LIKE A DUCK, QUACKS LIKE A DUCK, FLIES LIKE A DUCK... THEN I CALL IT A DUCK.
democracy doesn't mean i have to tolerate complete stupidity... ::)
W
I don't know you personally ,its not logical that I would Comment on your morals or values.
I did not realize you were personalizing that aspect of this one way discussion.
Unlike Tito who shows how he feels by his actions ...all you do is play the same tape over and over ...as you know thats not a discussion,
and yes I know you did not ask for a discussion ,just Facts or an event that I could show that would be irrefutable evidence.
In my zeal I may have crossed the line from hypothetical to personal
but I don't think so........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 22, 2012, 05:04:52 PM
democracy doesn't mean i have to tolerate complete stupidity... ::)
Think again: how do you imagine DEMOCRACY without TOLERANCE? COMPLETE TOLERANCE. At least one opponent must be smart.
Quote from: Qwert on September 22, 2012, 10:16:43 PM
Think again: how do you imagine DEMOCRACY without TOLERANCE? COMPLETE TOLERANCE.
you're the one who should think again. ::)
here's a recap...
1. some faither makes an asinine fantastical claim.
2. someone calls them on it.
3. the faithers claim persecution... just like what happened to their precious jesus.
::)
my 'tolerance' for religion and imaginary godfairies disappeared in the smoking ash and choking dust of 9/11.
9/11
I know its an atrocity ,but why did it have that effect on those particular views?
Thx
Chet
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 22, 2012, 10:21:27 PM
you're the one who should think again. ::)
Still, I see no reason to abuse anybody: it's never an argument. Cool down before argument. Abusive people have spleen and thus live shorter.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 22, 2012, 12:16:21 AM
which god?
The God of abraham, moses, david, jacob, etc.... the father of JESUS, THE ONE SUPREME TRUE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, THE GREAT I AM
WANT TO KNOW HIM MORE?, THEN READ THE BIBLE DEEPLY WITH COMPASSION AND HUMILITY.
BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM:
"For those who believe there is no need for explanation but for those who don't believe there is no possible explanation" :D
otits
Quote from: Qwert on September 22, 2012, 01:14:13 PM
I guess... in democracy, there is enough room for people with different ideas; why using invectives? Its obvious that always only one idea is the positive one. There are nations, which still don't have democracy; we see the effects of that today in the Middle East where religious fundamentalists govern. Are you people living there? You cannot live without humiliating others?
Be use to it buddy co'z that is really the effect of having no GOD.
There are only two choices if not from God then its from the devil. no neutral. ;)
being worst everyday. if your not in God side.
and that is the truth! :)
Tito
I can not understand this quote
""ya there is a battle in me about the FE with GOD but as mush as possible i'm trying to share what is important and that is
saving human soul and what you want is to save human body which is temporary. God has reasons why millions are dying.
Now what is important, Body or soul? Think! :( "
--------------------
Where does a Christian find this in his Bible?{newTestament]
God gives a man a gift to save Lives and souls and the christian keeps it for himself?
And this Choice pleases his God??
WHERE? ???
Please just give me one place I can find this in the Christian Bible and I will never bother you again.
EVER
After all
""There are only two choices if not from God then its from the devil. no neutral.""
Thx
Chet
PS
Its not easy but you have to "practice what you preach"
You preach love and practice selfishness,But put the blame on God.
""God has reasons that Millions die""??
Stop playing God
Your no good at it......
PPS
Find the place in the Christian Bible .[NewTestament]
Or stop making believe your Choice is Christlike!
Quote from: ramset on September 23, 2012, 08:06:22 AM
Tito
I can not understand this quote
""ya there is a battle in me about the FE with GOD but as mush as possible i'm trying to share what is important and that is
saving human soul and what you want is to save human body which is temporary. God has reasons why millions are dying.
Now what is important, Body or soul? Think! :( "
--------------------
Where does a Christian find this in his Bible?
God gives a man a gift to save Lives and souls and the christian keeps it for himself?
And this Choice pleases his God??
WHERE? ???
Please just give me one place I can find this in the Christian Bible and I will never bother you again.
EVER
After all
""There are only two choices if not from God then its from the devil. no neutral.""
Thx
Chet
PS
Its not easy but you have to "practice what you preach"
You preach love and practice selfishness,But put the blame on God.
""God has reasons that Millions die""??
Stop playing God
Your no good at it......
PPS
Find the place in the Christian Bible .
Or stop making believe your Choice is Christlike!
i'm just answering what goat is always saying about the importance of saving lives ok :D
you cannot find this in the bible, im just telling what is much more important. ok
im not perfect ok >:( that problem is between me and my God! >:(
and i'm not playing with God ! >:(
i'm not preaching! >:( i'm sharing about faith not love! >:(
>:(
Teets
So your Ministry of selfishness [what your actions Preach here] is not in the NewTestament of the Christian Bible as an example of "Christlike" behavior.
Thank you for clearing that up..
But what you do is clearly Biblical [can be found in many, many places]
Its just not Christlike.
Its the other Guy..........
Chet
Quote from: ramset on September 23, 2012, 09:09:52 AM
Teets
So your Ministry of selfishness [what your actions Preach here] is not in the NewTestament of the Christian Bible as an example of "Christlike" behavior.
Thank you for clearing that up..
But what you do is clearly Biblical [can be found in many, many places]
Its just not Christlike.
Its the other Guy..........
Chet
Sorry buddy i know you won't understand me, and i understand that. ;D
I understand you more than you could imagine.
I struggle every day with it.
God bless you brother
I know its not easy........
Chet
PS
If your gonna make money you better ""HURRY UP"" !!!
You can't sell the cow when the milk is free.................................!:'}
In many ways and many places!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghL6KJD3EWg&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghL6KJD3EWg&feature=plcp)
remember DO GOOD !!
Quote from: Qwert on September 22, 2012, 11:58:21 PM
Still, I see no reason to abuse anybody: it's never an argument. Cool down before argument. Abusive people have spleen and thus live shorter.
and that's your prerogative. don't tell me mine... ::)
furthermore i haven't "abused" anyone. i have simply called a 'spade' a 'spade'. if chetito doesn't want to be described as an idiot then he needs to LEARN SOMETHING and stop speaking like one.
idiot is the proper adjective, and i don't really care if you don't 'like' it... ::)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 23, 2012, 12:05:00 AM
The God of abraham, moses, david, jacob, etc.... the father of JESUS, THE ONE SUPREME TRUE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE, THE GREAT I AM
and what method(s) did you use to falsify ALL the other gawds?
and what method(s) did you use to validate this 'gawd of abraham'?
take heed of the words from your very own holey babble...
james 1:26
those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
So to sum everything up:
We have:
ramset (chet) = Christian or some form of who is devout and believing of god.
Tito = A freemason who believes in the GOAT (God Of All Things) now referred to as G.A.O.T.U. (Grand Architect of the Universe.) This was switched because Since at least the Middle Ages, the goat has been symbolic of the devil, and stories were circulated then of witches who called forth Satan, who came riding into town on a goat to take part in their blasphemous orgies. Then, as the Freemasons gained in popularity, detractors accused them of witchcraft, which is probably where the notion of initiates riding a goat came from.
Willy Inebriated = A former believer of GOD who's views have changed for one reason or multiple reasons weather self induced or media induced is now an atheist.
So in essence we have one fella out of the three in this discussion who has blind faith in GOD and the two others who will not blindly have faith in GOD as referenced in the holy bible.
I have some odd feeling that all three of these people are no better then the other in terms of their beliefs as it was their life events and influences that brought them to their choices on what to believe or rather how to reference or word their beliefs.
I do have one question for all of them though hypothetically speaking now...
If you knew for a fact that their was God and Devil who would you chose to follow the word of?
I think the answer to this question will provide that they do share the common ground in this hypothetical situation... Could be wrong I guess we will see providing they all participate in this hypothetical exercise.
Idiot..........
HHMMMmmmmmmmmm
If W was sitting with Chetito having a conversation ...... W would never use this word unless he felt like he was out of arms reach and could run very very fast .
Ofcourse unless he knew my "beliefs" were very well founded ,and had grate confidence in my self control.
Manners can save your life sometimes. being from New York City having spent most of my life
amongst some pretty ruff folk
I always have good manners...........
Thx
Chettito
Ps
Teets
you will be hard pressed to find a man as well versed as "W" in the bible or other faiths.
He will give you no wiggle room..............
PS
Snicker.... I see fringe .... he doesn't know "W" Bites...........
Gotta Go........
Quote from: infringer on September 23, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
So to sum everything up:
We have:
ramset (chet) = Christian or some form of who is devout and believing of god.
Tito = A freemason who believes in the GOAT (God Of All Things) now referred to as G.A.O.T.U. (Grand Architect of the Universe.) This was switched because Since at least the Middle Ages, the goat has been symbolic of the devil, and stories were circulated then of witches who called forth Satan, who came riding into town on a goat to take part in their blasphemous orgies. Then, as the Freemasons gained in popularity, detractors accused them of witchcraft, which is probably where the notion of initiates riding a goat came from.
Willy Inebriated = A former believer of GOD who's views have changed for one reason or multiple reasons weather self induced or media induced is now an atheist.
So in essence we have one fella out of the three in this discussion who has blind faith in GOD and the two others who will not blindly have faith in GOD as referenced in the holy bible.
I have some odd feeling that all three of these people are no better then the other in terms of their beliefs as it was their life events and influences that brought them to their choices on what to believe or rather how to reference or word their beliefs.
I do have one question for all of them though hypothetically speaking now...
If you knew for a fact that their was God and Devil who would you chose to follow the word of?
I think the answer to this question will provide that they do share the common ground in this hypothetical situation... Could be wrong I guess we will see providing they all participate in this hypothetical exercise.
your 'summation' regarding me is entirely incorrect. did you actually read ANY of my posts? just because my primary education was at a private parochial school that doesn't mean i ever believed in or had faith in this obviously mythical gawd of abraham... and regarding me being an atheist... again i have to ask, did you actually read ANY of my posts?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 16, 2012, 09:26:25 AM
faith: the last refuge of the hopeless... and the first refuge of the ignorant.
so that's another no on the extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy from chetty, tito the clown, vinreet... imagine that! ::)
thank you again for your tacit admission about your imaginary godfairy... ::)
edit: and i'm agnostic, not atheist... you pretentious, sanctimonious faithers. ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzButIq-6c
@magluvin...
thank you for your tacit admission that you have not applied the scientific method to your imaginary godfairy (or any others) and are operating on nothing but blind faith.
i knew you wouldn't let me down buddy... :D
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 23, 2012, 09:59:52 PM
@magluvin...
thank you for your tacit admission that you have not applied the scientific method to your imaginary godfairy (or any others) and are operating on nothing but blind faith.
i knew you wouldn't let me down buddy... :D
No problem Wilby. ;] You very well know that there is nothing I or anyone could say that would influence you otherwise. I know where you are with this.
My post wasnt an attack on you. Did you take it that way? ;]
Everyone has their ways with things.
Our gov is running the direction of fewer freedoms of religion. It may be a happier world for you one day. ;]
MaGs
Quote from: Magluvin on September 23, 2012, 10:10:42 PM
No problem Wilby. ;] You very well know that there is nothing I or anyone could say that would influence you otherwise. I know where you are with this.
MaGs
then why did you bother with that asinine, illogical word salad you posted? ::) all you managed to do was to demonstrate that you suspend logic and reason when it suits your purpose...
may your chains rest lightly...
I did read what you had said actually I have read the whole thread while I may have made a simple miscalculation due to the fact that someone stated my faith was gone in the ashes with 9/11 and I thought it was you but could be wrong.
Either way I just asked a hypothetical question if you had to chose between following the word of god and having eternal life or eternal damnation and following the Devil which would you choose hypothetically speaking now you know without question that there is a god and there is a Devil and you have to choose...
Now play along here and play along fair and keep this on topic don't try and ask me something crazy off topic like if I had to drink liquid plumber or die what would be my choice or something on a tangent. No I suppose I did not get grasp of your stance on religion and finally listing what I listed was strictly for verification purposes that I had everything correct it may be true as well that tito is not a mason I do not know for sure but either way if you have no stance on religion you are an atheist someone who is non believing of a god a creator of some sort weather that god is non physical and is simply a sea of energy all around us or you simply wish to deny it all and believe in evolution.
You are educated enough to know what I am proposing here and educated enough to answer it basically anyone can easily answer this hypothetical question and the answers may vary depending on the type of person you are it is a simple choice between good and evil what type of person are you willy who would you side with hypothetically speaking?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 23, 2012, 10:19:43 PM
then why did you bother with that asinine, illogical word salad you posted? ::) all you managed to do was to demonstrate that you suspend logic and reason when it suits your purpose...
may your chains rest lightly...
maybe I was testing you. ;]
I see that you are wanting scientific, logical proofs.
But if God wants us to believe, sight unseen, for what ever reasons he wishes, as he is God, then why would you think that God would make it that easy for you to get scientific or logical proofs of his existence? That would certainly put a loophole in his plan. Wouldnt it? Youve read it. You know what Im saying.
You are angry about it all. Its clear to see. Im sorry you feel that way.
Thing is, some do go through life with some belief, even though they have not experienced what God can do for you in life here. They could not provide testimony of their experiences because they had not 'recognized' them.
I could tell you stories. But that is not the proof you are 'asking' for. So I have not told them, as I know you are beyond reach. It explains that in the Bible also.
I have nothing against you Wilby. We have been ok around each other here.
But I nor anyone on this earth can give you those proofs. You will have to try and experience them yourself. There only one way to do that.
Like I said. You are well read. Otherwise, how could you declare that its all 'Babble', if you have not read it? You know exactly what Im saying.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on September 23, 2012, 10:41:57 PM
maybe I was testing you. ;]
I see that you are wanting scientific, logical proofs.
really? you just figured that out? me asking for extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend for what now, a couple years... that didn't make that clear enough for you? idiot.
Quote from: Magluvin on September 23, 2012, 10:41:57 PM
But if God wants us to believe, sight unseen, for what ever reasons he wishes, as he is God, then why would you think that God would make it that easy for you to get scientific or logical proofs of his existence? That would certainly put a loophole in his plan. Wouldnt it? Youve read it. You know what Im saying.
his 'plan' has logical holes in it the size of a supernova... ::) 'his plan' is nothing but a logical fallacy... you would need to present extant material evidence and or a logical proof for the existence of this gawd before discussion of 'his plan' even becomes relevant... ::) you know what i'm saying...
Quote from: Magluvin on September 23, 2012, 10:41:57 PM
You are angry about it all. Its clear to see. Im sorry you feel that way.
i'm not angry... i'm fed up with the asinine, willful stupidity you faithers continually vomit.
edit: i have nothing against you either mags... other than the fact that you are a filthy spooner who impetuously refuses the sauce of your lord and master the flying spaghetti monster.
i do find your 'fair weather' approach to logic, reason and science quite disappointing though...
Quote from: infringer on September 23, 2012, 10:37:55 PM
I did read what you had said actually I have read the whole thread while I may have made a simple miscalculation due to the fact that someone stated my faith was gone in the ashes with 9/11 and I thought it was you but could be wrong.
oh so you read it... but didn't actually comprehend what i wrote... let me refresh your memory:
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 22, 2012, 10:21:27 PM
you're the one who should think again. ::)
here's a recap...
1. some faither makes an asinine fantastical claim.
2. someone calls them on it.
3. the faithers claim persecution... just like what happened to their precious jesus.
::)
my 'tolerance' for religion and imaginary godfairies disappeared in the smoking ash and choking dust of 9/11.
i really don't know why i should even have to... it was only one page back. ::) note i didn't state anything about 'faith', only my tolerance... ::)
Quote from: infringer on September 23, 2012, 10:37:55 PM
Either way I just asked a hypothetical question if you had to chose between following the word of god and having eternal life or eternal damnation and following the Devil which would you choose hypothetically speaking now you know without question that there is a god and there is a Devil and you have to choose...
i see now you have added the "and having eternal life or eternal damnation" qualifier... ::)
Quote from: infringer on September 23, 2012, 10:37:55 PM
Now play along here and play along fair and keep this on topic don't try and ask me something crazy off topic like if I had to drink liquid plumber or die what would be my choice or something on a tangent. No I suppose I did not get grasp of your stance on religion and finally listing what I listed was strictly for verification purposes that I had everything correct it may be true as well that tito is not a mason I do not know for sure but either way if you have no stance on religion you are an atheist someone who is non believing of a god a creator of some sort weather that god is non physical and is simply a sea of energy all around us or you simply wish to deny it all and believe in evolution.
you're asking me to 'play fair' when you have TOTALLY LIED about my position and what i have said? LMFAO! furthermore, there is a difference between atheists and agnostics... could you at least try and get one thing correct?
Quote from: infringer on September 23, 2012, 10:37:55 PM
You are educated enough to know what I am proposing here and educated enough to answer it basically anyone can easily answer this hypothetical question and the answers may vary depending on the type of person you are it is a simple choice between good and evil what type of person are you willy who would you side with hypothetically speaking?
i'm going to have to hypothetically go with saint satan and choose 'good' over the 'evil' gawd of abraham... seeing how
the only killing in the bible that could possibly be blamed on satan is in the book of job and is 10 (his seven sons and three daughters) people... however, it should be noted that satan was a servant of gawd at that time following the orders of gawd and gawd instigated a bet with satan which started things... gawd however killed about 2.8 million people according to the bible. and thus is infinitely more 'evil' than satan.
Quote from: infringer on September 23, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
Willy Inebriated = A former believer of GOD who's views have changed for one reason or multiple reasons weather self induced or media induced is now an atheist.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 23, 2012, 04:19:52 PM
your 'summation' regarding me is entirely incorrect.
That's almost exactly me: I'm not complete atheist however, my "religion" does not recognizes absolute "good" let's call it "God" and absolute "evil" something, let's call it "Satan": it's just pure fantasy and I believe I can prove it. Always, I believe, something "good" for one entity is "bad" for an opposition. In effect, good and bad creates neutral which is real and natural. I also don't believe in eternal life after death.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 23, 2012, 11:52:17 AM
idiot is the proper adjective, and i don't really care if you don't 'like' it... ::)
Though I'm not absolutely sure, I believe you do this only in safe places, like an internet forum, only protected with a nickname, not real name and never alone in real life.
Q
I had a simular experience as you.[the direction your beliefs took]
Are you comfortable taking this discussion to a more personal level?
Nothing about You......
More about how you feel ??
See I have been Told... Anger is a bedfellow to Fear and their child is anxiety ,one feeds off the other. ,and produces torment.
Nothing religious here
Somebody we both Know [an anonymous guy] sounds am,azingly Angry [tormented]most of the time,
But this is not about him [that Guy],its more about us Men that search for the "probability of God" and the reasons Why.[Gee... sounds like him Too }
Agnostic
Budist
Christian
Hindu
Jewish
Muslim
ETC
This is all very close to my heart , and many here I am sure..
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on September 24, 2012, 09:27:42 AM
Q
I had a simular experience as you.[the direction your beliefs took]
Are you comfortable taking this discussion to a more personal level?
I guess so.
Q
Im finishing up a job before dark [2 -3 Hours]
Don't worry its nothing Crazy ,we men Just have a tuff time talking about things sometimes , {honestly that is].
Especially about this kinda stuff,we tend to avoid it [at least I Do]
I'll be back.........
Thx
Chet
.
The very attempt to discuss the probability of God by intellectual means is absolutely hilarious.
The intellect lacks all tools needed for such an achievement.
God is not anything you can prove.
God is a state of mind.
A state of oneness with everything.
The official concept of God that we have learned to know in our different cultures is merely a tool for control and has nothing to do with your inner experience of a dialog with something higher than yourself. When you pray, it is not God that respond, it is your inner higher self. This inner dialogoue is unscrupulously exploited by the religious leaders as being the voice of God.
Organized religion created a fictious God for the ones in need of conditioning, a God prefabricated and configured and ready to believe in.
I repeat, God is a state of mind and has nothing to do with the intellectual domain of belief or non belief.
However, if there actually is an Intent behind the existence of universe, it is inevitably all encompassing and all caring, meaning that it cares just as much for the bacteria that kills you as it cares for you.
Only a Hybris of the human degree makes it possible to degrade a possible Omni Potent Intent to become especially in favour for the human race.
The big issue here is the since long developed and refined conditioning of the human mind, which has created a rigidly fixed point in the human experience of reality.
We take so much for granted concerning our paradigm that a discussion like this topic is bound to fail.
I have here played on a certain strings, and you will respond accordingly.
No big deal. Just a little sad, when thinking about all the windows of opportunity for the human experience of reality that are closed hermetically today.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on September 24, 2012, 05:59:54 PM
The very attempt to discuss the probability of God by intellectual means is absolutely hilarious.
The intellect lacks all tools needed for such an achievement.
God is not anything you can prove.
God is a state of mind.
A state of oneness with everything.
What you are really saying is there is no god. "State of mind" means nothing. We already have minds that can enter states. So your god adds nothing to the status quo, so therefore can be dismissed.
Gwandau
I just came in from work for a moment ,But I must say
You tap danced all around the questions I have from Others of "Faith".
Because It is not by choice that I seek , it is as if I "Must" some how..?
its like a thirst that I can't explain ,and I suppose my most recent Work with People under extreme torment [addicts],and how much when they start to talk with a clearer Mind......The thirst is there in them also.........and it seems they
almost went Mad avoiding it and drowning or sedating it away !
I suppose my real question is to the Agnostic which Q seems to be
and "W" says he is.
Do they have this itch they can't quite scratch regarding a Creator or whatever..[have they ever]?
or have they dismissed it as Dumb ,and to be ignored??
Do they even Know what the heck I'm talking about??
Gotta go back out side for a bit ........
THx
Chet
PS
I see "Eaten"s post
Eaten ...You ever have something like this happen to you??
something that sorta ""Eats" at you regarding a creator??
Quote from: ramset on September 24, 2012, 06:48:35 PM
Gwandau
Do they have this itch they can't quite scratch regarding a Creator or whatever..[have they ever]?
or have they dismissed it as Dumb ,and to be ignored??
You are referring to man's nature to find a pattern and order to things. This is why conspiracy theories flourish. The idea of the world truly being a chaotic place of random events is scary, so it is best to come up with a conspiracy theory, whereby there is a plan behind the things you see.
God is just another conspiracy theory, one that man came up with to comfort himself. If there is a God (putting aside for the moment the question of where the universe came from), he has not thought it worthy to present us with any evidence of his interest in us. People can spend lifetimes talking to their invisible friend inside their heads, but there will be no answers.
Eaten
Just for Clarity
Yes you have had this Nagging feeling.
and you have reasoned it away and are very Comfortable with your decision.
So Comfortable that you are dumbfounded by others inability to see the obvious?
Is this correct?
Thx
Chet
Gwandau, eatenbyagrue I guess, you both are just right. I am using maybe somewhat improper expression in my arguments, yours is just better. I argue against those who believe that God is an entity which lives somewhere else, watches our sins and punishes; in fact, we punish ourselves when unable to handle bad information. We also have power to reward ourselves with good health, just with the help of our state of mind.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 23, 2012, 12:56:32 PM
and what method(s) did you use to falsify ALL the other gawds?
and what method(s) did you use to validate this 'gawd of abraham'?
take heed of the words from your very own holey babble...
james 1:26
those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
You don't really get it do you?
The One true God is the one that will falsify other false god cause they cannot endure time.
They are automatically be falsified when its time for them to be punish by the one true God!
You know what just use a little common sense, even you can solve some simple question like this.
:P
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 24, 2012, 10:33:28 PM
You don't really get it do you?
The One true God is the one that will falsify other false god cause they cannot endure time.
They are automatically be falsified when its time for them to be punish by the one true God!
You know what just use a little common sense, even you can solve some simple question like this.
:P
chetito... it's ok to admit you don't have any idea what 'falsify' and 'validate' means in the scientific vernacular... ::)
I see so many people wanting evidence for proof of God and so forth yet I have seen nothing concrete that disproves the existence of God either so it is a double edged sword for me.
Is there any scientific or mathematical data (Anything concrete) that you could use to disprove the exsistence of God?
Quote from: infringer on September 25, 2012, 12:58:05 AM
I see so many people wanting evidence for proof of God and so forth yet I have seen nothing concrete that disproves the existence of God either so it is a double edged sword for me.
Is there any scientific or mathematical data (Anything concrete) that you could use to disprove the exsistence of God?
The trouble is, proving a double negative is even harder than proving a negative. Where there is no (accepted) empirical proof that something exists, there is also no (accepted) empirical proof to say it doesn't.
Personally I like to imagine there was once an eternal unchanging god who became very, very bored with its endless eternal unchanging self. So it became the always changing, never boring, eternally evolving universe. (Answers the needs of those who require a creator, and still fulfills the notion of conservation of energy for those who need a balanced energy ledger.)
But that's only what I like to think (dream). I have zero proof to offer, so I think it, imagine it, but I do not "Believe" it, even though it's an elegant explanation that addresses one main concern of both those who are either for or against a god driven universe!
The question of the existence of God will probably always be a question of faith, I imagine, but science does not preclude faith and faith does not preclude science. They are two different things, but they are both a product of the mind and are imbued into the human condition. Even Wilby, ultimately must acknowledge that logic, being a product of the human mind, is only one of our many (imperfect) tools of understanding.
Many of the foremost scientists of the modern era, are or were, devoutly religious, but also many are not.
Personally I don't "believe"..... que sera ...
Cheers
Quote from: infringer on September 25, 2012, 12:58:05 AM
I see so many people wanting evidence for proof of God and so forth yet I have seen nothing concrete that disproves the existence of God either so it is a double edged sword for me.
Is there any scientific or mathematical data (Anything concrete) that you could use to disprove the exsistence of God?
OmniBusWillnebrious
When Your logic has stomped out the last vestiges of"fallacy"in your world
and all is as you wish.
When men no longer rally for a certain cause or belief ,when Autonomy rules your world ,when its every man for himself and whatever his particular Flavor of morality or personal beliefs happen to be.
Who will call the shots ,what /who's rules will you live by?
your Government??
Oh yes I forgot,..... La La Land..........
Has the world ever seen such a place ,does history even have an example?
You stomp it all out and then what?
Better look around Bud,there are others stomping out the same flame.
some are much more organized and have an agenda that does not include
La La Land..........
As a matter of fact some see La La land as evil.
A place where men marry men woman marry women.
the children are forbidden to pray
where any place the word God is used becomes a target.
No its not a conspiracy @Eaten its whats happening as I type.
95 % of the people in La La Land believe in some form or another
"God" exists.
the other 5% [or less] are running that show.
To certain Old testament God fearing Types [that live a thousand years in the past] its percieved as a disease,needing a good "Clean Up".
Stomp away Guys ...No ones gonna stop you here!!
Thx
Chettito
1. some faither makes an asinine fantastical claim.
2. someone calls them on it.
3. the faithers claim persecution... just like what happened to their precious jesus.
So W
Luc says that we have to be better and better servants,or we just keep coming back here till we get it right.
I guess your not in a rush HuH?
Who's the guy your persecutin??
Thx
Chetty
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 24, 2012, 11:18:00 PM
chetito... it's ok to admit you don't have any idea what 'falsify' and 'validate' means in the scientific vernacular... ::)
What kind of logic is that buddy, are you really not learning?! >:(
The one true God, the real one true God is ABOVE SCIENTIFIC VERNACULAR!.
Why are you really hardenning your heart buddy?, in spite of perfect word medicine you are receiving!
is that intentional? or what? >:(
WALK BY FAITH, am i going to repeat and repeat it?, don't you really get it?. >:(
You chetti spagetti #$%@#$%#@$%#@$%#@$% ;D joke
=============================
Thanks mags ;)
Just an odd theory:
God is energy.
Scientifically speaking energy can convert into matter and then back to energy.
No vacuum is completely stable thus causing fluctuations of energy. It could be possible that fluctuations of energy collided and created the first bits of matter.
So we have something that could be the alpha and omega and could be a creator.
God = Energy
God = Infinite
Energy = Infinite
Simple theory that could be scientifically possible as well.
All is one possibly negative energy and positive energy also scientifically possible... It is funny how one negative person can set the tone for the room almost as if we are a conduit that is effected by the negative energy.
This is just a theory in free thinking what I believe is of no importance and I wish to keep that to myself as I have.
Hello all,
Having read through this thread, I think a more appropriate title would be, "Probability of Ignorance".
ALL of creation speaks of the works of His hands, but they still worship their idols that are both deaf and dumb. That seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not hear.
http://www.overunity.com/12756/explanation-of-god/msg337771/#msg337771 (http://www.overunity.com/12756/explanation-of-god/msg337771/#msg337771)
Cheers,
Bruce
Just figured I would share Bruces thought in the form of a quote to save people the time of having to flip flop between threads.
QuoteHello All,
My spirit is grieved over the conversations being posted here and the other thread, trying to "define" the Creator, calling Jesus, the Lord of Glory, a "prophet" to be compared with others. Etc, ad nasua, emphasis on nausua. You all speak of that which you neither know nor understand. ALL religions of man are Satanic in origen and demonic in purpose, whose ultimate goal is the damnation of the human soul. TRUE religion is to visit the widows and orphans in their need, the Bible says.
NONE of you need the religions of man but rather a changed heart and changed life. And that can only be found in a RELATIONSHIP with the Lord Jesus Christ. All of the difference between knowing ABOUT someone and KNOWING someone. Self righteousness will not save your soul for we are all wicked to the core. New Age mumbo jumbo, singing kumba ya, won't help either.
For there is indeed a day coming when Christ shall judge the living and the dead, and we shall each give an account of ourselves before God. Yes, the Bible says that even every idle word spoken shall be given an account there of. Oh foolish man, who has warned you to escape the wrath to come? The world spins closer each day to the fulfillment of all things and still the Holy Spirit of God cries out, still tugging on the heartstrings of man, giving another opportunity to repent, to turn from our wicked ways and to confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord. He alone is God, the Saviour of the World, as it is written, "every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess to the glory of God, that Jesus Christ is Lord."
Mohammed will bow his knees to Jesus. Budda will bow his knees to Jesus. Satan will bow his knees to Jesus. YOU will bow your knees to Jesus. Do it now and he will give you a new life and the promised indwelling of His Holy Spirit. Don't, and you will certainly do so in the life to come.
To all of the atheists, unbelievers, etc., just remember, that your doubt and unbelief neither moves God from his throne, nor changes a thing regarding the ultimate outcome. Only FAITH moves God, for he who comes to God MUST believe that he IS, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek after him. For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Ask Christ (Messiah) Jesus into your life now, while you yet have a little time. For our life is as a vapor of smoke, here one day, and gone the next.
His servant,
Bruce
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on September 25, 2012, 08:28:17 PM
What kind of logic is that buddy, are you really not learning?! >:(
The one true God, the real one true God is ABOVE SCIENTIFIC VERNACULAR!.
Why are you really hardenning your heart buddy?, in spite of perfect word medicine you are receiving!
is that intentional? or what? >:(
WALK BY FAITH, am i going to repeat and repeat it?, don't you really get it?. >:(
You chetti spagetti #$%@#$%#@$%#@$%#@$% ;D joke
=============================
Thanks mags ;)
ok. i'll now wash my hand. :-\
Quote from: infringer on September 25, 2012, 09:32:21 PM
Just figured I would share Bruces thought in the form of a quote to save people the time of having to flip flop between threads.
i figured i would share my response to save people time as well...
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on September 25, 2012, 08:52:09 PM
as it is written, "every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess to the glory of God, that Jesus Christ is Lord."
Mohammed will bow his knees to Jesus. Budda will bow his knees to Jesus. Satan will bow his knees to Jesus. YOU will bow your knees to Jesus.
bruce you were lied to...
and the ahh... the idea of kneeling, it's... you see, logically kicking the crap out of all your asinine, fantastical claims has left a nasty cramp in my leg... so kneeling won't be happening for me...
if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend wants my knees, tell him/her... molon labe
WilbyInebriated,
What is your life theory or purpose I am curious to know weather you have anything that you believe in that others may be skeptical of ?
Do you have any theories on how the whole shebang started I think my theory was a good attempt for the scientific crowd ...
I am just curious as to what makes you tick and if you have morals that you follow or just do as you please without a care or guilt for anything you may do to make others lives miserable. Or are you a family man who does care and has morals and treats his fellow man with some dignity and holds a level of integrity for yourself and try to set good examples and maintain a positive attitude. We all have to believe in something even if it is ourselves. I am no psychologist so I don't even want to claim I can tell you what you are all about and it is possible that not even they could tell you for sure... So I look to you for an answer while this may be slightly off topic and I apologize for that I am still asking the question why don't you tell us some things you stand for.
I think religion is surely a topic that interests you otherwise you would not know all of these quotes but yet you believe not a word of it and continue to use the quotes to further establish your point so it makes me curious as to what you are really all about. Try to sum it up basic ans simple if possible. Do you have any theories of your own? Surely there is something because you seem to believe very strongly that it is all hogwash.
Quote from: infringer on September 26, 2012, 12:12:16 AM
WilbyInebriated,
What is your life theory or purpose I am curious to know weather you have anything that you believe in that others may be skeptical of ?
Do you have any theories on how the whole shebang started I think my theory was a good attempt for the scientific crowd ...
I am just curious as to what makes you tick and if you have morals that you follow or just do as you please without a care or guilt for anything you may do to make others lives miserable. Or are you a family man who does care and has morals and treats his fellow man with some dignity and holds a level of integrity for yourself and try to set good examples and maintain a positive attitude. We all have to believe in something even if it is ourselves. I am no psychologist so I don't even want to claim I can tell you what you are all about and it is possible that not even they could tell you for sure... So I look to you for an answer while this may be slightly off topic and I apologize for that I am still asking the question why don't you tell us some things you stand for.
I think religion is surely a topic that interests you otherwise you would not know all of these quotes but yet you believe not a word of it and continue to use the quotes to further establish your point so it makes me curious as to what you are really all about. Try to sum it up basic ans simple if possible. Do you have any theories of your own? Surely there is something because you seem to believe very strongly that it is all hogwash.
i think this quote from h.l. mencken sums it up nicely...
“Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truthâ€
Oh well, I suppose the Boss will come out now?{Stefan}
Maybe not ,but I don't think we are supposed to talk about religion.and this is going from Probability of God To much more specific beliefs ![forbidden]
Oh and "W"
thx for posting Bruces responce !
I needed that.
Good Day all...........
Chet
@everybody dependent upon a belief system,
you don't need any moral rules or guidelines to be of a high moral attitude.
You don't need a religion or any faith in anything to be a good and caring person.
You just have to have to be open in your heart.
Religion and faith are crutches for the weak and powertools for the religious authorities.
Stand up with high moral integrity by your own power!
You don't have to succumb to religious conditioning to be true at heart!
A true spritual being doesn't fall into any traps of rigid belief systems.
Jesus was not a Christian! He was a true being. Just like all the other enlightend Buddhas.
All the other gnostic crap written and edited thereafter are the workings of non enlightend persons.
Buddha was not a Buddhist! In fact he clearly stated that he did not approve of any religion in his name.
Same for all the other true beings in history. They never wanted the rigid crap evolving in their wake.
Deprogram yourself! Welcome out to the mystery of Reality as a free human being with an open mind.
We are here for free, we don't owe anybody anything for being here.
Or did you sign an agreement of any kind before getting here? I did not.
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Gwandau
Thanks for sharing Wilby I see your intentions are in the right spot as I suspected.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 26, 2012, 04:58:24 AM
i think this quote from h.l. mencken sums it up nicely...
“Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration - courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and above all, love of the truthâ€
I agree.
Quote from: Newton II on September 14, 2012, 01:33:36 AM
Quote :
The data reeled out in its support, verified many times over, reads like an extended column
of Ripley's Believe It or Not. The electromagnetic force is exactly 1,039 times stronger than
the gravitational force: had it been a little weaker, say 1,033 times as strong, stars would
have been a billion times less massive, and would have burnt a million times faster. Long
before any of us-or our forefathers-were born, universal darkness would have buried all. If
the difference between the mass of the proton and the neutron were not exactly what it is roughly
twice the mass of the electron-all neutrons would have become protons and matter
as we know it would cease to exist! Water, almost alone among compounds, is lighter in its
solid state than in its liquid state; ice floats. Had it not done so oceans would have frozen
from the bottom up, and in time, the earth would have been entirely covered by ice!
VERY INTERESTING !
And we wouldn't have been here to notice it. so its a non event. we are here because the conditions are just right. it no more proves god than it proves mickey mouse.
For all we know the universe may be cycling through different modes of being. we exist in this one in another nothing exists in yet another strange flying beings with wings and halo's exist.
Quote from: CuriousChris on September 27, 2012, 04:48:36 AM
And we wouldn't have been here to notice it. so its a non event. we are here because the conditions are just right. it no more proves god than it proves mickey mouse.
For all we know the universe may be cycling through different modes of being. we exist in this one in another nothing exists in yet another strange flying beings with wings and halo's exist.
Things mentioned in that quote are just few examples. There are hundreds of such aspects which are conducive for life and makes the existance of universe possible (not only earth and life on earth). It is difficult to say that everything happened by chance.
Things which look so solid and real on macro scale look virtual on micro scale (like nutrinos and quarks). Even quantum phycisists are getting confused whether this universe is real or just an illusion.
Quote from: Newton II on September 27, 2012, 06:16:21 AM
Things mentioned in that quote are just few examples. There are hundreds of such aspects which are conducive for life and makes the existance of universe possible (not only earth and life on earth). It is difficult to say that everything happened by chance.
Things which look so solid and real on macro scale look virtual on micro scale (like nutrinos and quarks). Even quantum phycisists are getting confused whether this universe is real or just an illusion.
Maybe they don't happen by chance. Maybe the rules have to be the way they are for reasons we have not discovered yet. Or maybe universes evolve the way nature has evolved, and the way the universe works now tends to lead to the creation of more like universes with the same rules. There are many other explanations besides an intelligent designer. You cannot just assume a designer, which is what theists do.
please insert the jin-jang symbol here.
With this little symbol you can explain everything !!
Imagine the white being a dynamic system.
Then the black is a equal but opposite dynamic system.
They are tied together.
You grow the white, then the black shrinks and you got a tension.
You can push this to extreme, you get maximal tension.
Behind this sticky point it becomes meaningless.
All dynamic gone !
Only at equilibrium the dynamic is maximum.
There you find harmonics.
Let’s try to explain everything.
Imagine God being a tall fellow with a beard.
Then Lilith is a woman upside down and invisible.
They are bound together and develop maximal dynamism,
when they are equal (but opposite).
Allow me a first conclusion:
Killing the devil (or ignoring Lilith) is meaningless.
Homosexuality is meaningless.
Paint the black side white, or the white side black.
The result is meaningless !
There is no dynamism at all.
This is also the crime of the church. She is hiding half of truth
from us for century’s. THEY should know better !!!
Imagine a fertilised cell. (God and Lilith)
Their dynamism is the Holy Spirit.
Equal but opposite the cell splits. (Adam and Eve)
This means that WE are half God, halve Lilith.
Spiritual conscious and unconscious
With growing unconsciousness you go into psychiatry.
Materially we are controlled by nervus sympaticus and nervus parasympaticus (vagus).
Tension between them is called illness
Harmony between them is called enlightenment, heaven on earth.
Not the big hallelujah, but de deepest feeling, that everything is right.
The words I used are not important. Just try to see the picture.
Please criticize or challenge me !!
Peter
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU)
Peter
I have a question
Your religion .... Did you build it yourself in your spare time ?
Thx
Chet
It’ s not a religion. But build in my spare time (60 years), yes !!
Wonderful, being able to explain everything !!
Advice: if you’re looking for God, don’t look into the sky,
But deep inside yourself.
Peter
Quote from: PS123 on September 28, 2012, 12:59:04 PM
Advice: if you’re looking for God, don’t look into the sky,
But deep inside yourself.
Peter
Yes! And not - what religions say - God is almighty and we are (almost) nothing. In fact, we have (dormant) God's power.
Quote from: Qwert on September 28, 2012, 05:20:52 PM
Yes! And not - what religions say - God is almighty and we are (almost) nothing. In fact, we have (dormant) God's power.
You are right. You seem to be a very wise person.
Quote from: Qwert on September 28, 2012, 05:20:52 PM
God is almighty and we are (almost) nothing.
wrong. your imaginary godfairy is imaginary and if you want to consider yourself (almost) nothing that's your prerogative... but don't presume to speak for me with this 'we' shit... ::)
Quote from: ramset on September 28, 2012, 08:13:29 AM
Peter
I have a question
Your religion .... Did you build it yourself in your spare time ?
Thx
Chet
and what if he did? that sure beats plagiarizing almost every religion/myth that preceded... like christianity did.
a myth is someone elses religion. different enough from your own for its absurdity to be obvious... yet fundamentally the same.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 28, 2012, 09:53:22 PM
wrong. your imaginary godfairy is imaginary and if you want to consider yourself (almost) nothing that's your prerogative... but don't presume to speak for me with this 'we' shit... ::)
"your imaginary godfairy 'is' imaginary"
Is? As if it were fact? Prove it.
"but don't presume to speak for me with this 'we' shit..."
Who said that you are the same as 'we'? You are definitely something else.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on September 28, 2012, 10:07:08 PM
"your imaginary godfairy 'is' imaginary"
Is? As if it were fact? Prove it.
"but don't presume to speak for me with this 'we' shit..."
Who said that you are the same as 'we'? You are definitely something else.
Magzimus Leviticus
you're the one claiming it's existence... prove it exists... until you do, your godfairy is as imaginary as leprechauns, elves and hobgoblins. idiot.
magudas iscariot... what are the methods you used to prove your godfairy real? what are the methods you used to disprove all the other godfairies?
your hypocrisy nourishes me...
History.......
So Wilby, you have Goblins and Elves in your History books?
or are you saying History as It applies to "Christianity" is Open to Wilby's unique perspective?
And the basis of Christianity is all a myth?
Somebody 2000 years ago said
Hey !! this is the guy !! lets do a big write up on him and make him into a God ...
so we can control the Minions .........
?
Something like that??
No big battles no big victorys of war hero stuff ,just this Carpenter Guy and make him into a God?
Is that how you see it Will?
?
Quote from: ramset on September 28, 2012, 10:22:21 PM
History.......
So Wilby, you have Goblins and Elves in your History books?
or are you saying History as It applies to "Christianity" is Open to Wilby's unique perspective?
And the basis of Christianity is all a myth?
?
as it is written... who among you can deny the flame imperishable?
The Ainulindalë
* There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad.
* For a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.
* Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'
* It seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.
* The Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
*
Now the Children of Ilúvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars.
* 'I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it. And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.
* Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
* When the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar.
* And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults.
as it is written...
The Valaquenta
* In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought; and they made a great Music before him. In this Music the World was begun; for Ilúvatar made visible the song of the Ainur, and they beheld it as a light in the darkness. And many among them became enamoured of its beauty, and of its history which they saw beginning and unfolding as in a vision. Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.
* Those of the Ainur who desired it arose and entered into the World at the beginning of Time; and it was their task to achieve it, and by their labours to fulfil the vision which they had seen. Long they laboured in the regions of Eä, which are vast beyond the thought of Elves and Men, until in the time appointed was made Arda, the Kingdom of Earth. Then they put on the raiment of Earth and descended into it, and dwelt therein.
* The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods.
* Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. But that name he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, and they name him Morgoth, the Dark Enemy of the World.
* From splendour he fell through arrogance to contempt for all things save himself, a spirit wasteful and pitiless. Understanding he turned to subtlety in perverting to his own will all that he would use, until he became a liar without shame. He began with the desire of Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into Darkness. And darkness he used most in his evil works upon Arda, and filled it with fear for all living things.
* Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 28, 2012, 10:09:27 PM
you're the one claiming it's existence... prove it exists... until you do, your godfairy is as imaginary as leprechauns, elves and hobgoblins. idiot.
magudas iscariot... what are the methods you used to prove your godfairy real? what are the methods you used to disprove all the other godfairies?
your hypocrisy nourishes me...
Dont turn it around on me, Wilby'is'inebriated. Probably. Like thats not part of your problem.
I dont have to prove anything to anyone. Dont have to. You could prove it yourself. But you wont. Its easy to see. Your too far gone. Like the apostles example, 'we' should move on as too much time has been spent on your 5th grade bully tactics. Grow up.
"what are the methods you used to disprove all the other godfairies?"
Oh, did I say that I made choices between different gods in my life? I dont remember that. Show me where I said that and we can see how good your facts really are. You getting sharper and more credible every post. :o
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on September 28, 2012, 10:35:25 PM
Dont turn it around on me, Wilby'is'inebriated. Probably. Like thats not part of your problem.
I dont have to prove anything to anyone. Dont have to. You could prove it yourself. But you wont. Its easy to see. Your too far gone. Like the apostles example, 'we' should move on as too much time has been spent on your 5th grade bully tactics. Grow up.
"what are the methods you used to disprove all the other godfairies?"
Oh, did I say that I made choices between different gods in my life? I dont remember that. Show me where I said that and we can see how good your facts really are. You getting sharper and more credible every post. :o
Magzimus Leviticus
don't turn it around on you? YOU PRETENTIOUS SANCTIMONIOUS FAITHER IT IS YOU WHO HAS "TURNED IT AROUND ON ME".
you have no extant material evidence for your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... just like elves and hobgoblins. ::)
you have not a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... just like elves and hobgoblins. ::)
i have repeatedly asked you for the above and you repeatedly REFUSE to present them.
bully: some idiot xian faither calling non-faithers "sinners".
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that your godfairy is imaginary... idiot.
oh, did i say that you said you made choices between different gods in your life? i don't remember that... show me where i said that and we can see how good your facts really are. ::) you're getting more idiotic and more credulous with every post.
So Will
Thats the kind of stuff you have in your history Books?
You relegate the historical events surrounding Christianity to fairy tales and such
?
Somebody 2000 years ago said
Hey !! this is the guy !! lets do a big write up on him and make him into a God ...
so we can control the Minions .........
?
Something like that??
No big battles no big victorys of war hero stuff ,they just picked this Carpenter Guy and make him into a God?
Is that how you see it Will?
Your not on the same page somehow?
Your posting fairy tales .....
For TPTB to pick a carpenter out of history and make him into a God to help control the masses
Doesn't even make sense.
Those would be some really hard tickets to sell.....
?
Quote from: ramset on September 28, 2012, 10:44:11 PM
Your posting fairy tales...
shut up melkor... you're posting fairy tales...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 28, 2012, 10:39:32 PM
don't turn it around on you? YOU PRETENTIOUS SANCTIMONIOUS FAITHER IT IS YOU WHO HAS "TURNED IT AROUND ON ME".
you have no extant material evidence for your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... just like elves and hobgoblins. ::)
you have not a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... just like elves and hobgoblins. ::)
i have repeatedly asked you for the above and you repeatedly REFUSE to present them.
bully: some idiot xian faither calling non-faithers "sinners".
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that your godfairy is imaginary... idiot.
oh, did i say that you said you made choices between different gods in your life? i don't remember that... show me where i said that and we can see how good your facts really are. ::) you're getting more idiotic and more credulous with every post.
Ahh, your right! Now I see!!!! Thank you Wilby!!! lol Ok, maybe your at 3rd grade level bullying.
Again, I dont have to prove anything to you. And you cant prove to 'us' that God doesnt exist. so :P Its funny, there are more of 'us' here that there are 'you's. Thats a real popular club your in there bud. But if you work really hard you just may get another member that might accept your 'facts' as true. God help them. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on September 28, 2012, 11:14:19 PM
Ahh, your right! Now I see!!!! Thank you Wilby!!! lol Ok, maybe your at 3rd grade level bullying.
Again, I dont have to prove anything to you. And you cant prove to 'us' that God doesnt exist. so :P Its funny, there are more of 'us' here that there are 'you's. Thats a real popular club your in there bud. But if you work really hard you just may get another member that might accept your 'facts' as true. God help them. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
you don't have to prove anything to me... but your asinine fantastical claims about your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend will remain asinine and fantastical until you do. and you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist... or elves... or hobgoblins... or leprechauns... so :P
magudas... it doesn't matter if there are a trillion of you xians... see the logical fallacy known as an 'appeal to popularity'... idiot.
'Sauce' means unmerited favor. none of us deserve it. all of us have fallen short of the requirements of the FSM, but... the good news is the gift of the FSM is eternal life. all who trust Her are made complete and acceptable to the Holy FSM. i pray you will trust Her too my friend. She boiled for your spoons too. :)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 28, 2012, 11:21:02 PM
you don't have to prove anything to me... but your asinine fantastical claims about your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend will remain asinine and fantastical until you do. and you can't prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist... or elves... or hobgoblins... or leprechauns... so :P
'Sauce' means unmerited favor. none of us deserve it. all of us have fallen short of the requirements of the FSM, but... the good news is the gift of the FSM is eternal life. all who trust Her are made complete and acceptable to the Holy FSM. i pray you will trust Her too my friend. She boiled for your spoons too. :)
"you don't have to prove anything to me... but your asinine fantastical claims about your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend will remain asinine and fantastical until you do."
Yes, it appears that they will remain that way, to you. Thats why you are here. You enjoy making fun of people and calling them names and insulting their beliefs. Its your thing.
Classic demonic.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on September 28, 2012, 11:32:19 PM
Yes, it appears that they will remain that way, to you. Thats why you are here. You enjoy making fun of people and calling them names and insulting their beliefs. Its your thing.
Classic demonic.
Magzimus Leviticus
magudas iscariot... you hypocritical idiot. ::) i'm here to defend and uphold logic and reason...
1. some faither makes an asinine fantastical claim.
2. someone who holds logic and reason in veneration calls them on it.
3. the faithers claim persecution and bullying... just like what happened to their precious jesus.
once again you have responded with no cogent argument for your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... and once again you have been soundly refuted with logic and reason...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 28, 2012, 11:33:57 PM
magudas iscariot... you hypocritical idiot. ::)
1. some faither makes an asinine fantastical claim.
2. someone who holds logic and reason in veneration calls them on it.
3. the faithers claim persecution and bullying... just like what happened to their precious jesus.
once again you have responded with no cogent argument for your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... and once again you have been soundly refuted with logic and reason...
So thats how you sum it up? Thats all you got? 1 2 3? Well thats real convincing. Just because you 'claim' to have this fantastical logic and a faither of reason, we should all take heed? Good luck with that. Oh, your not having any. :P
Night Wilby. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on September 28, 2012, 11:47:25 PM
So thats how you sum it up? Thats all you got? 1 2 3? Well thats real convincing. Just because you 'claim' to have this fantastical logic and a faither of reason, we should all take heed? Good luck with that. Oh, your not having any. :P
Night Wilby. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
yes. and it's correct. the record demonstrates it... idiot.
'Sauce' means unmerited favor. none of us deserve it. all of us have fallen short of the requirements of the FSM, but... the good news is the gift of the FSM is eternal life. all who trust Her are made complete and acceptable to the Holy FSM. i pray you will trust Her too my friend. She boiled for your spoons too. :)
as an aside, it's infinitely amusing that you prattle on about "5th grade level..." and "3rd grade level..." when you don't even know the difference between "your" and "you're"... ::)
project much?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 28, 2012, 11:48:46 PM
yes. and it's correct. the record demonstrates it... idiot.
'Sauce' means unmerited favor. none of us deserve it. all of us have fallen short of the requirements of the FSM, but... the good news is the gift of the FSM is eternal life. all who trust Her are made complete and acceptable to the Holy FSM. i pray you will trust Her too my friend. She boiled for your spoons too. :)
as an aside, it's infinitely amusing that you prattle on about "5th grade level..." and "3rd grade level..." when you don't even know the difference between "your" and "you're"... ::)
project much?
Never really took any typing classes. My first round of typing was learning Basic language and assembler in the early 80s. RS color computer. After that, I didnt do any typing or computer work till 91. Amiga 500. I was a lil late getting into that one. Got into graphics and some cool video producing stuff, still not much typing. Got out of computers again till around 2000. Acer 75mhz 700mb drive. FreeI internet. I got into chat. Thats when I started forming sentences. :o ;) But I learned a lot of slang chatting. I try to break myself of it, but, didnt think much of it till you said something. Havnt gotten any complaints from the 'we' crowd on it. If you look, I do "thats, youve, your, mags, beanth(beans with a lil lisp), shmack, mag field, Oh, I could go on...
but ya know wut wilb, phrom now on il'l tri 2 escalates mines grammaresque 4 yooz so dat yooz cans underscands wat Im saYzin.
IM tryin 4 ya wilb.
Magnus Oreallyus
Quote from: Magluvin on September 29, 2012, 01:40:03 AM
Never really took any typing classes. My first round of typing was learning Basic language and assembler in the early 80s. RS color computer. After that, I didnt do any typing or computer work till 91. Amiga 500. I was a lil late getting into that one. Got into graphics and some cool video producing stuff, still not much typing. Got out of computers again till around 2000. Acer 75mhz 700mb drive. FreeI internet. I got into chat. Thats when I started forming sentences. :o ;) But I learned a lot of slang chatting. I try to break myself of it, but, didnt think much of it till you said something. Havnt gotten any complaints from the 'we' crowd on it. If you look, I do "thats, youve, your, mags, beanth(beans with a lil lisp), shmack, mag field, Oh, I could go on...
but ya know wut wilb, phrom now on il'l tri 2 escalates mines grammaresque 4 yooz so dat yooz cans underscands wat Im saYzin.
IM tryin 4 ya wilb.
Magnus Oreallyus
and what does typing have to do with knowing how words are spelled? ::)
magudas iscariot...
thank you for your tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
thank you.
So its you against the world Huh dubble yah ?
very noble fight ,swinging at shadows and cursing the light.
But in order for you to "Win"....... I mean really get more "converts"
You need to say what you stand for in this world besides yourself and a better Pasta recipe
or properly seasoned sause.
Why's it all about "eatin" with you,... and your Diet Eees [spaggeti sause spoons ...]?
You a chunky angry Guy??
So Will
What do you believe ?
How do you Live ?
When I meet someone of Faith ,unless they are extreme Isolationalists with a perverted perspective of reality. usually I'm quite comfortable sharing the planet with them and Know where they are "coming from".
where are you coming from Will?
{Besides the kitchen}
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on September 29, 2012, 07:32:47 AM
So its you against the world Huh dubble yah ?
very noble fight ,swinging at shadows and cursing the light.
But in order for you to "Win"....... I mean really get more "converts"
You need to say what you stand for in this world besides yourself and a better Pasta recipe
or properly seasoned sause.
Why's it all about "eatin" with you,... and your Diet Eees [spaggeti sause spoons ...]?
You a chunky angry Guy??
So Will
What do you believe ?
How do you Live ?
When I meet someone of Faith ,unless they are extreme Isolationalists with a perverted perspective of reality. usually I'm quite comfortable sharing the planet with them and Know where they are "coming from".
where are you coming from Will?
{Besides the kitchen}
Thx
Chet
chetito...
thank you for your tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
thank you.
W
You sound like a broken record.
A weak old worn out "45" [all scratchy and fuzzy].
Thats all yah got Huh?
Come on ,Embellish, live a little ...
Take a risk .
what standards do you live by?
are you so against "God" that you live in a way that we would percieve as "EviL"?
Is that it??
Would we "stone you"........
W
I live in a glass house ,I can't throw stones.
Whatcha "believe In"?
A Constitution?
Anarchy?
What?
This is the story of a College Professor that has something to teach about this subject.
This is part 1 & 2
http://youtu.be/kLimoqZUWgw (http://youtu.be/kLimoqZUWgw)
http://youtu.be/tC0VOx4M5ZE (http://youtu.be/tC0VOx4M5ZE)
This is another later account
http://youtu.be/8vj0qKthCgg (http://youtu.be/8vj0qKthCgg)
Liberty
edit: fixed links (I think)
If we need evidence that God doesn't exist we just need to look at the followers of religion.
If there was one God why is there so many religions and so many variations of religions?
When I say to a religious person. How do you know of God's existence. You are merely being told words from other people, How do you know they are telling you the truth?
Every religious person I know and that's a lot (I come from a very religious family) all say the same thing. "I know God exists because he speaks to me" They hear his words in their heart.
So if thats the case then why are their so many different religions and different beliefs within one religion. If God speaks to each person why then does he not say the same things? Why is God so inconsistent?
Why? because he doesn't exist and each person is listening to their own "inner voice" which is based on their experience and those words they have 'chosen' to believe.
So the proof of Gods non existence is his believers.
CC
Quote from: Liberty on September 29, 2012, 10:47:57 PM
This is the story of a College Professor that has something to teach about this subject.
http://youtu.be/8vj0qKthCgg (http://youtu.be/8vj0qKthCgg)
And this is part 2
http://youtu.be/tC0VOx4M5ZE (http://youtu.be/tC0VOx4M5ZE)
Liberty
Festival of pain! what a load of crap.
Quote from: Liberty on September 29, 2012, 10:47:57 PM
This is the story of a College Professor that has something to teach about this subject.
This is part 1 & 2
http://youtu.be/kLimoqZUWgw (http://youtu.be/kLimoqZUWgw)
http://youtu.be/tC0VOx4M5ZE (http://youtu.be/tC0VOx4M5ZE)
This is another later account
http://youtu.be/8vj0qKthCgg (http://youtu.be/8vj0qKthCgg)
Liberty
edit: fixed links (I think)
Just a re-post to fix the links. Was missing part 1, but is fixed.
Liberty
Oh wow that makes all the difference. Add a bit of hollywood and suddenly it now makes sense and is more believable.
This guy makes money out of preaching to the converted. How reliable do you think his testimony is?
Of course if you posted these videos as an example of religious fakery, thanks. job well done!
Chris
What do they hear?
Have you ever gone a little farther with your Queries on people that hear God.[in their hearts]
Whats the Message?
I'm Not being a wiseguy,I would just like an Honest answer.
Thx
Chet
I was one. For a long while I was a born again christian. But like my moniker says I am also curious. I started asking questions lots of them and the answers didn't make sense. So I realised I was being led by the nose.
But that's not what you asked was it. What do they hear? Not words. Not some deep booming inner voice. Its very simple, they hear that what they believe is correct. They get affirmation that they have made the correct decisions in whatever it was they were worried about. So when you ask them how do they know the preacher was telling them the truth they say its because God told them it was correct.
In reality they are only affirming that they want to believe it.
Of course I did the same. Didn't realise it at the time. You honestly believe what you are told, and that God is telling you you are right in believing it.
Chris
Thanks,
the reason I ask is I have heard many persons from many different faiths comment about this [feelings, inner voice etc ].and the common thread was there [Love].
Some would say I'm too liberal ,I say every journey starts with the first step.
You sound like a great guy Chris.
Thx for your comments
Chet
CuriousChris,
I'm sorry but these guys are so deep into their state of conditioning that they just cannot get what you are saying.
People who have taken the "leap" into faith have invested just a bit too much of their life account to afford to make it back out into freedom.
There is no rethoric way of freeing them. The cost for them is too much. It's like the prisoner who brags about his big cell, but dreads the thought of being released out into the unsecure world.
I posted a set of arguments in favour for individual spiritualism a couple of pages back in this thread in an attempt to reach these guys, but did not even get a response. Just silence in regard of my input. Maybe they just did not understand my message.
I paste it here once again with the hope that at least one of the rigidly set minds will be able to look beyond the boundary of mass produced religion.
Quote from: Gwandau on September 26, 2012, 02:14:09 PM
@everybody dependent upon a belief system,
you don't need any moral rules or guidelines to be of a high moral attitude.
You don't need a religion or any faith in anything to be a good and caring person.
You just have to have to be open in your heart.
Religion and faith are crutches for the weak and powertools for the religious authorities.
Stand up with high moral integrity by your own power!
You don't have to succumb to religious conditioning to be true at heart!
A true spritual being doesn't fall into any traps of rigid belief systems.
Jesus was not a Christian! He was a true being. Just like all the other enlightend Buddhas.
All the other gnostic crap written and edited thereafter are the workings of non enlightend persons.
Buddha was not a Buddhist! In fact he clearly stated that he did not approve of any religion in his name.
Same for all the other true beings in history. They never wanted the rigid crap evolving in their wake.
Deprogram yourself! Welcome out to the mystery of Reality as a free human being with an open mind.
We are here for free, we don't owe anybody anything for being here.
Or did you sign an agreement of any kind before getting here? I did not.
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on September 30, 2012, 05:03:09 PM
I'm sorry but these guys are so deep into their state of conditioning that they just cannot get what you are saying.
indeed... telling a snail about flight will not transform it into a butterfly... and 'flight' doesn't exist in a snail's 'reality'...
Wilby and Gwandau
Its not actually conditioning. not in the beginning anyway for a new convert. It is certainly conditioning for children such as my nephews and nieces.
What it is, and this is what all converts express, is its a feeling of 'fulfillment' or an emptiness being filled. This they describe as love as Chet said earlier. Its not love its not even fulfillment its an abrogation of their will. A release from needing to make decisions.
They turn over their decision making to their 'elders' and to their inner God. The one they think is communication to a real God. By doing that it is a great relief. A return to the 'child state' of having mummy and daddy look after them if they should make a mistake.
So they are being truthful to the teachings of being childlike. And like a child they are vulnerable to exploitation.
Quote from: CuriousChris on September 30, 2012, 11:25:26 PM
So they are being truthful to the teachings of being childlike. And like a child they are vulnerable to exploitation.
I think this discussion is taking a funny turn. Topic of this thread is 'Probability of God'. The question is whether God exists or not. If you say NO, then explain :
1) What is matter?
2) What is filed?
3) How this universe came into existance?
4) How brain works? Is it just a chemical and electrical reaction or some sort of spirit present in the brain makes it self thinking? if not can you convert a
computer into a self thinking brain with feelings and emotions?
5) What is the purpose of this life? Just take birth, earn money and die?
6) Structure of brain in general is same for all human beings. But why every one's thinking is different? What makes a person good or bad? Why some
people are happy and some are suffering?
Unless all the above questions are answered I have to believe that it is all God made. Because no other explanation is available. If science explains all the above things, I would agree that God doesnot exist.
I am not interested in religion. I am a better thinker than my elders. I can formulate my own religion. Nobody can fool me or exploit me showing a dummy God.
Vague arguments cannot solve any problem.
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:25:39 AM
I think this discussion is taking a funny turn. Topic of this thread is 'Probability of God'. The question is whether God exists or not. If you say NO, then explain :
1) What is matter?
2) What is filed?
3) How this universe came into existance?
4) How brain works? Is it just a chemical and electrical reaction or some sort of spirit present in the brain makes it self thinking? if not can you convert a
computer into a self thinking brain with feelings and emotions?
5) What is the purpose of this life? Just take birth, earn money and die?
6) Structure of brain in general is same for all human beings. But why every one's thinking is different? What makes a person good or bad? Why some
people are happy and some are suffering?
Unless all the above questions are answered I have to believe that it is all God made. Because no other explanation is available. If science explains all the above things, I would agree that God doesnot exist.
I am not interested in religion. I am a better thinker than my elders. I can formulate my own religion. Nobody can fool me or exploit me showing a dummy God.
Vague arguments cannot solve any problem.
How in the world do you get from science not providing a full answer to something, to therefore god exists? That is not how we reason.
This notwithstanding, science can either answer or suggest answers to most of those. For example, we know what matter is made of, as far as atomic and subatomic particles. But there are definitely layers there we do not know yet. Thought and consciousness relate to neural connections in the brain. Why do people think differently? The same reason everyone looks slightly different. There is variation among identical twins even, why do you expect two members of the same species to be molecularly identical?
You want purpose to life. From an evolutionary standpoint, the purpose of life is to create more life. If you want a philosophical answer, there is plenty of secular philosophy that may give you answers, but I suspect that beyond procreation, it comes down to helping your fellow man and enjoying yourself some along the way. This is not a science answer, but neither does it require god.
Look, your thinking is all wrong. This is what early man thought. "Until you explain rain, until you explain tides, until you explain lightning, until you explain how the Sun works, I am just going to believe that it is God doing it." That line of thinking was wrong then and it is wrong now. The only difference is now there are fewer things we do not know.
There are so many who say "if there is no God, what is the meaning and purpose of life?"
Why does there have to be a meaning or purpose? These are are human concepts, not universal law.
I propose that the wrong question is often being asked.
Instead, perhaps we should ask each of ourselves, "what meaning and purpose will I give to my life?"
Cheers
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:25:39 AM
I think this discussion is taking a funny turn. Topic of this thread is 'Probability of God'. The question is whether God exists or not. If you say NO, then explain :
1) What is matter?
2) What is filed?
3) How this universe came into existance?
4) How brain works? Is it just a chemical and electrical reaction or some sort of spirit present in the brain makes it self thinking? if not can you convert a
computer into a self thinking brain with feelings and emotions?
5) What is the purpose of this life? Just take birth, earn money and die?
6) Structure of brain in general is same for all human beings. But why every one's thinking is different? What makes a person good or bad? Why some
people are happy and some are suffering?
Unless all the above questions are answered I have to believe that it is all God made. Because no other explanation is available. If science explains all the above things, I would agree that God doesnot exist.
Hmmm.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you haven't read my other posts and that is the reason for your response.
1/ If God exists he must be consistent. An inconsistent God is not one I could believe in, Perhaps you can.
2/ How do his followers know he exists.
a/ they read stuff in a book written by man but claimed to be authored by God
b/ they are told by their elders(church)/preacher/influencers
3/ How does a follower know what they read or are told is correct?
a/ they reconcile what they are told and what they read by their internal god speaking to them
4/ If God exists and is consistent then his followers should be consistent because of the consistency of their inner voice.
5/ They are inconsistent. I was inconsistent when I was a christian.
Therefore by simple deductive logic. If Gods followers are inconsistent, then their internal god is inconsistent and is not really god speaking to them but their own emotive thoughts.
Therefore they cannot provide proof that what they are told and what they read is in fact truth. Then by extension what they are told and what they read is not from God but from men only.
Therefore God did not author the bible or koran or any other "word of god" book
Therefore God does not exist.
Now to your points oft quoted as some form proof of God.
This type of god that you subscribe to is often called the God Of the Gaps.
As suggested by eatenbyagrue not knowing something does not automatically mean you need a God to fill in the gaps of your knowledge. It simply means you have not learnt. Casting your own failure as proof of God, is not proof of God at all but only proof of your own (and humanities) lack of understanding.
1/ Matter is another form of energy. Exactly how it is instantiated is beyond me.
2/ Filed is when you store something in a filing cabinet
3/ It went Bang
4/ The brain is a chemical and electrical wonder. I had a dog, he was very intelligent (for a dog) are you suggesting he also had a spirit? I do miss him greatly :(
5/ There is no meaning. Meaning is a human construct like inches or years.
6/ You are sadly mistaken The structure of the brain is entirely unique from one creature to the next. From its very beginning the brain creates connections which are the result of genetics and environment. Every person is absolutely unique. But not just the brain either, all of us are unique in every aspect. That's why I run like shite but can program better than most athletes.
This last quote by you:
QuoteI am not interested in religion. I am a better thinker than my elders. I can formulate my own religion. Nobody can fool me or exploit me showing a dummy God.
By elders I meant church elders, I think you just mean older, but either way its an arrogant thing to say. If you are the bearer of all knowledge then yes you could create your own religion. Of course you would expect everyone to call you god.
But if that's the case I am not sure why you asked the questions you did? As god you must surely know the answer.
Completely unique !
Chris don't take my comments the wrong way ,A lot of what you fellows say makes complete sense .
Are you happy ?
Who makes your rules to live by? Are you socialist? [you trust that [atheist Gov't]?].
To me personally "the probability of God" has a lot to do with the fact that we are all still here...knowing what we do about our nature ,and knowing we have had the ability to annihilate the planet for 70 odd years,or poison on almost every imaginable level chem warfare genetics etc etc .
But we're still here ,to my way of thinking VERY high probability of someone else preventing that .
I asked your friends what they believe in.
Where on earth can you point and say "THIS" see this right here??? !!
Thats it ...that works......!!
otherwise it starts to sound like La La Land.......
thx
Chet
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 01, 2012, 05:28:46 AM
1/ If God exists he must be consistent. An inconsistent God is not one I could believe in, Perhaps you can.
2/ How do his followers know he exists.
a/ they read stuff in a book written by man but claimed to be authored by God
b/ they are told by their elders(church)/preacher/influencers
3/ How does a follower know what they read or are told is correct?
a/ they reconcile what they are told and what they read by their internal god speaking to them
4/ If God exists and is consistent then his followers should be consistent because of the consistency of their inner voice.
5/ They are inconsistent. I was inconsistent when I was a christian.
All these things show the inability of a person to realize God and it need not necessarily mean that God does not exist. Buddha left his crown, his wife and son, went to forest, sat under a tree, meditated and realized God. Can you do that? Unless you follow his path and cross verify, you cannot say that he is wrong.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 01, 2012, 05:28:46 AM
1/ Matter is another form of energy. Exactly how it is instantiated is beyond me.
2/ Filed is when you store something in a filing cabinet
3/ It went Bang
4/ The brain is a chemical and electrical wonder. I had a dog, he was very intelligent (for a dog) are you suggesting he also had a spirit? I do miss him greatly :(
5/ There is no meaning. Meaning is a human construct like inches or years.
6/ You are sadly mistaken The structure of the brain is entirely unique from one creature to the next. From its very beginning the brain creates connections which are the result of genetics and environment. Every person is absolutely unique. But not just the brain either, all of us are unique in every aspect. That's why I run like shite but can program better than most athletes.
1), 2), 3)
You know very well that these are only vague answers and do not completely explain the nature of the universe. Even a great scientist like Einstein had failed to explain the complete nature of matter and field. We cannot say that Einstein was not a learned person and I cannot believe that ‘CC’ is more ‘learned’ than Einstein. Only ‘half learned’ people with ‘half baked’ knowledge come to immediate conclusion. A genuine person will not come to conclusion unless he makes sure.
4) All animals have the spirit. I weigh 75Kgs. I can stand firmly on ground. If you purchase 75Kgs of flesh, fix bones and other things on it and cover it with a thin polythene sheet like skin, will it stand firmly on ground? Even four legged animals like dog, cow, elephant etc., which stand firmly on ground when alive, fall on to the ground when they die. Can you make a dead body of a human or four legged animals to stand firmly on ground? Even if you adjust the center of gravity and make them to stand on ground, a slight push is enough to make them fall again. It shows a clear cut difference between the living and dead and also implies that a sort of living force or spirit is required to keep the body functioning. Without spirit body cannot function. (IT IS IMPOSSIBLE)
5) The basic purpose of life is evolution of the spirit. The body is a cluster of different cells which is just a waste. You can remove few stem cells from the body and make thousands of such bodies by cloning. From one ‘CC’ we can make thousands of ‘CC’s. You have to make use of the body for evolution of the spirit to go to a higher place in the heaven when you leave this earth. A person without spiritual attachment is more or less like an animal and his life itself is a waste.
6) I said the ‘general structure’ of brain of all humans is the same. A doctor prescribes medicine based on general structure of the body. Can a doctor study the body and brain structure of all 4000 million people on this earth to prescribe medicine based on their ‘unique’ body and brain structure?
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 01, 2012, 05:28:46 AM
By elders I meant church elders, I think you just mean older, but either way its an arrogant thing to say. If you are the bearer of all knowledge then yes you could create your own religion. Of course you would expect everyone to call you god.
But if that's the case I am not sure why you asked the questions you did? As god you must surely know the answer.
Based on my knowledge I can formulate my own religion only for myself to live happily and evolve myself and not for others. I am not that much arrogant to call myself God.
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
All these things show the inability of a person to realize God and it need not necessarily mean that God does not exist. Buddha left his crown, his wife and son, went to forest, sat under a tree, meditated and realized God. Can you do that? Unless you follow his path and cross verify, you cannot say that he is wrong.
1), 2), 3)
You know very well that these are only vague answers and do not completely explain the nature of the universe.
You are missing a crucial point in all this. Of course nothing presented here necessarily means that god does not exist. If, for example, god exists outside our universe, we have no way to perceive this, so we cannot say one way or the other.
The better question is why do you think god exists? All you have raised are things you are not able to explain. But that means nothing except that you cannot explain them. Period.
http://www.amazon.com/Probability-God-Simple-Calculation-Ultimate/dp/1400054788 (http://www.amazon.com/Probability-God-Simple-Calculation-Ultimate/dp/1400054788)
Great read!
http://www.godsci.com/gs/new/finetuning.html (http://www.godsci.com/gs/new/finetuning.html)
If you can read this, I can prove God exists:
http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/read-prove-god-exists/ (http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/read-prove-god-exists/)
Can coherent Code write itself?
http://www.ucg.org/science/dna-tiny-code-thats-toppling-evolution/ (http://www.ucg.org/science/dna-tiny-code-thats-toppling-evolution/)
His name is Jesus...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQh1cjZLmUo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQh1cjZLmUo)
Blessings in Yahshua, Jesus Christ
Quote from: ramset on October 01, 2012, 09:35:29 AM
Completely unique !
Chris don't take my comments the wrong way ,A lot of what you fellows say makes complete sense .
Are you happy ?
Who makes your rules to live by? Are you socialist? [you trust that [atheist Gov't]?].
To me personally "the probability of God" has a lot to do with the fact that we are all still here...knowing what we do about our nature ,and knowing we have had the ability to annihilate the planet for 70 odd years,or poison on almost every imaginable level chem warfare genetics etc etc .
But we're still here ,to my way of thinking VERY high probability of someone else preventing that .
I asked your friends what they believe in.
Where on earth can you point and say "THIS" see this right here??? !!
Thats it ...that works......!!
otherwise it starts to sound like La La Land.......
thx
Chet
Nothing unique about me I can tell you. You speak as if this is something you have not heard nor thought about before. I suggest you take the time to be curious.
Now don't take this the wrong way ;)
Not being able to devoid yourself of ancient superstitions is the basis for most religions and so is the need to 'belong'.
These twin needs drive such statements like "why are we here?" "If you don't believe in god who do you believe in?"
These are unnecessary constraints. I don't "believe in" anything or any one. I like all of us try to determine right from wrong and do the best I can by myself and those around me. I mostly fail on the doing right by myself part though. Its my nature. But I don't need to point to anything and say I believe in THIS. That's not a weakness I have and if I did I might be wrong. Instead I point at things and say I'd like to understand this I'd like to know about that.
When I try to understand the human condition I look back into the past. And I mean way back. The only thing that separates us from animals is our brain. It was developed as a survival technique and it worked really well. But don't think we were the only species to develop it. Our cousins the Neanderthal's also developed it. but we were the only ones to survive. we did it better than neanderthals. As humans we have always wanted to know more. That's why you are on this forum and not tending to potted flowers (as well as tending to potted flowers?) This is a need that drives us. so we ask. We ask those whom we trust to know better to tell us.
But they don't know either There was no understanding od stars and what the sun was nor why on a cold day our breathe is visible, so they fall back to one of the most basic human directives. If you don't know the answer. "Make shit up" I call this the MSU principle. Thus was formed religion. The other driving need is the one to belong, We are after all a herding creature. so we bond into groups. They are called churches now.
But each group has a slightly different set of beliefs so they separate. Therefore we have many different religions and societal groupings.
"Who makes your rules to live by?"
This question is the most troubling question of all. People who are religiously introverted can't fathom that the rules they live by are mostly the same rules everyone else lives by. These rules came about by the way we live. which is in groups or herds (yes I can feel you squirm as I say that). These rules are not given to us by a deity they are given to us by common sense. by the need to get along and by maintaining the health of the group as a whole.
To beleive that without religiion society will fall into anarchy is actually the most insulting belief religions have. BUT ITS NECESSARY TO KEEP YOU IN CHECK. That's why you are taught this over and over. that's why the government and non religious people become your enemy or those to be pitied and perhaps saved. That's how control is maintained over members of a religion. It is fear that is used as a weapon against you. If you were taught that hey you don't need us to stay on the 'path' many would just wander away. and then who does the tithing?
You of course will totally fail to grasp that! your questions of me show that you are unable to comprehend what I am saying. Its like asking a fish how he can swim. He doesn't know he just does. He knows he is in water. and he knows if he stays out too long he will die. but ask a fish what water is and he cannot tell you. For a fish it just is.
Living within those boundaries is the easy way out.
Of course what I wrote above is very simplistic.
Oh Yeah and we are "still here" not because of God but in spite of God. Most wars are started by ideological differences and most of them are rooted in religion. But overall we are a big herd (go on squirm) and we know that to unleash the weapons our brains have devised will kill the herd.
So lets hope the followers of God don't have their way. We are doomed if they do.
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
All these things show the inability of a person to realize God and it need not necessarily mean that God does not exist. Buddha left his crown, his wife and son, went to forest, sat under a tree, meditated and realized God. Can you do that? Unless you follow his path and cross verify, you cannot say that he is wrong.
I meditated and found the concept of god wanting, Can you do that?
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
1), 2), 3)
You know very well that these are only vague answers and do not completely explain the nature of the universe. Even a great scientist like Einstein had failed to explain the complete nature of matter and field. We cannot say that Einstein was not a learned person and I cannot believe that ‘CC’ is more ‘learned’ than Einstein. Only ‘half learned’ people with ‘half baked’ knowledge come to immediate conclusion. A genuine person will not come to conclusion unless he makes sure.
Vague well yes of course. No one alive can explain the universe. you are again retreating to the god of the gaps. Its a comfortable place to be, isnt it?
Personally I would be mortified if we knew everything. What a boring life it would be.
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
4) All animals have the spirit. I weigh 75Kgs. I can stand firmly on ground. If you purchase 75Kgs of flesh, fix bones and other things on it and cover it with a thin polythene sheet like skin, will it stand firmly on ground? Even four legged animals like dog, cow, elephant etc., which stand firmly on ground when alive, fall on to the ground when they die. Can you make a dead body of a human or four legged animals to stand firmly on ground? Even if you adjust the center of gravity and make them to stand on ground, a slight push is enough to make them fall again. It shows a clear cut difference between the living and dead and also implies that a sort of living force or spirit is required to keep the body functioning. Without spirit body cannot function. (IT IS IMPOSSIBLE)
LOL am I talking to an eight year old?
Look up homeostasis and learn something instead of parroting others.
Look at this while you are at it. the opposite. an animal thought to possibly be immortal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_nutricula
You speak like most religious zealots. Unable to move out of the 18th century. hurry along now we are way ahead of you.
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
5) The basic purpose of life is evolution of the spirit. The body is a cluster of different cells which is just a waste. You can remove few stem cells from the body and make thousands of such bodies by cloning. From one ‘CC’ we can make thousands of ‘CC’s. You have to make use of the body for evolution of the spirit to go to a higher place in the heaven when you leave this earth. A person without spiritual attachment is more or less like an animal and his life itself is a waste.
6) I said the ‘general structure’ of brain of all humans is the same. A doctor prescribes medicine based on general structure of the body. Can a doctor study the body and brain structure of all 4000 million people on this earth to prescribe medicine based on their ‘unique’ body and brain structure?
5/
a/ Says who?
b/ Cloning is a testament to mans ingenuity, nothing else.
6/ Your lack of medical knowledge is astounding. Most medicines are generalised otherwise they would adversely effect anyone the medicine is not designed for. Have you never been told do not take medicine prescribed for someone else. We are all different which is exactly why they say that. Of course we are all the same as well. Now I bet that confuses you doesn't it.
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
Based on my knowledge I can formulate my own religion only for myself to live happily and evolve myself and not for others. I am not that much arrogant to call myself God.
So you are living proof of what I say then. for you religion is not about God its about you. therefore you'll make god fit whatever it is you want him to fit. and to make yourself happy you'll call it 'evolution of the spirit'
Your points are trivial and revolve around nitpicking, but whatever makes you happy.
Chris
Thanks again for your reply,And from your perspective it makes sense ,and in a lot of ways mine too.....
There's always "Buts".......If you Don't know already I work with addicts and I teach them the 12 step program.The results are amazing.......
But we won't talk about that "Again".Perhaps we should talk about the epidemic of "drugs" and abuse all accross the spectrum in our society,Peeps are freekin out [quietly] this "everyman for himself" thing isn't cutting it,we are getting further and further away from being a "herd" where we see each other and interact on a daily basis,I can't even remember the last time I saw Kids playing together outside? Our kids are in the house playing Video games ...being Desensitized to violence and suffering at an astounding rate.[subject to HUGE peer pressure if they don't].
Basically Chris ...The lack of Character and morals and values[family] is manifeating itself into the REALITY of what a world like the one you say is possible ......actually looks like, Cut out God [the three above] from your society and put back What?
I relate to your Nature completely , however thats just "You" ,maybe there are others[ofcourse] ,hinging societys future on "well I can do it".why can't you .......RISKY !! One thing is obvious changes are happening and they are happening fast
.
Regarding the Chem,biological Nuclear Etc Warfare and Why we are still all here? I put it on the same page as why in a world that is nothing more than evolution...Why isn't there one example of anything, anywhere that lives forever?[yet]
A design feature ............[the probability of God !:,]
Oh and the Gaps get bigger the more we learn.....
Chris your a cool guy, Thanks for talking.
Chet
Did you know that marine mammals all have skeletons that are similar to their earthbound conterparts. The dolphin is the most intelligent marine mammal and has the same bones in its front fins as we have in our hands. What advantage does a seabound creature have in going to the surface to get oxygen all the time? The sperm whale has the same digestive system as a cow. I think Darwinians won't ever find the missing link because there is a much greater chance of man devolving into a monkey than a monkey evolving into a man. I believe that in our dna library we have the ability to devolve into a number of different species depending on enviromental feedback. Embryonic development goes through all the species from an amobea to the monkeys with the oversized brain enclosure we take the form of today. If your body is producing a whole bunch of serotonin then the cell going under meotic or mitotic division will not go mutant since the enviromental feedback is communicating success. If you lack this sense of well being then you become diseased and mutations or activation of different parts of your dna get activated until such time as your sense of well being is restablished. Death is a disease it is not encoded in our dna. What advantage does a being have encoding death into it's dna? Is there an overpopulation gene that gets activated for perpectuation of the species over perpectuation of the individual? If that's the case you won't see my ass at any football games or mass gatherings of smartmonkeys.
I would have to say
The design feature of Death[or a limited lifespan] must be most perplexing to an "Evolutionist".
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 12:10:49 PM
I would have to say
The design feature of Death[or a limited lifespan] must be most perplexing to an "Evolutionist".
Thx
Chet
Why? I can see why disease that kills the young would be selected against, as it does not give the victim a chance to procreate. Cell deterioration from aging does not impact ability to procreate, and therefore is not disadvantageous from an evolutionary standpoint.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 02, 2012, 09:01:16 AM
I meditated and found the concept of god wanting, Can you do that?
I don’t believe it. If you meditate you may see your pet dog but not God. Seeing God is not so easy. It takes several births of meditation with a highly evolved spirit like that of Buddha.
I can understand that you are expressing doubt whether Buddha has really realized God. It is not only Buddha who has realized God but hundreds of such saints and prophets have done it and spoken about God. Expressing doubts altogether on all those saints shows only your arrogance without properly analyzing the subject.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 02, 2012, 09:01:16 AM
Look at this while you are at it. the opposite. an animal thought to possibly be immortal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_nutricula
You speak like most religious zealots. Unable to move out of the 18th century. hurry along now we are way ahead of you.
It is only about biological immortality but not about physical immortality. Even if a fish becomes biologically immortal, one day or the other it has to die physically, eaten by other animals, diseases or any other natural hazards which is again decided by god.
You wait for some time. When somebody proves that God exists, you may have to go back to 1st or 0th century (period of Jesus Christ)
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 02, 2012, 09:01:16 AM
6/ Your lack of medical knowledge is astounding. Most medicines are generalised otherwise they would adversely effect anyone the medicine is not designed for. Have you never been told do not take medicine prescribed for someone else. We are all different which is exactly why they say that. Of course we are all the same as well. Now I bet that confuses you doesn't it.
Any diabetic patient takes insulin injection, any normal head ache patient takes aspirin. You are not supposed to take medicines prescribed for others because it depends on the stages of the disease . For initial stages of the disease you have to take some medicine and at advanced stages you may have to take some other medicine depending on your condition.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 02, 2012, 09:01:16 AM
So you are living proof of what I say then. for you religion is not about God its about you. therefore you'll make god fit whatever it is you want him to fit. and to make yourself happy you'll call it 'evolution of the spirit'
Your points are trivial and revolve around nitpicking, but whatever makes you happy.
Don’t connect god with religion. Religions just show different ways to reach God. I meant I can find my own way to reach God instead of following ways shown by others.
I can very well understand that you are writing just for the sake of argument without properly analyzing things. Half baked knowledge is always dangerous because it may take you out of track and at some part of life you will repent for it.
Before I come to conclusion that I am talking to a fool, I want to close this discussion.
If you don’t mind please tell me how to lock this topic.
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:25:39 AM
I think this discussion is taking a funny turn. Topic of this thread is 'Probability of God'. The question is whether God exists or not. If you say NO, then explain :
1) What is matter?
2) What is filed?
3) How this universe came into existance?
4) How brain works? Is it just a chemical and electrical reaction or some sort of spirit present in the brain makes it self thinking? if not can you convert a
computer into a self thinking brain with feelings and emotions?
5) What is the purpose of this life? Just take birth, earn money and die?
6) Structure of brain in general is same for all human beings. But why every one's thinking is different? What makes a person good or bad? Why some
people are happy and some are suffering?
Unless all the above questions are answered I have to believe that it is all God made. Because no other explanation is available. If science explains all the above things, I would agree that God doesnot exist.
I am not interested in religion. I am a better thinker than my elders. I can formulate my own religion. Nobody can fool me or exploit me showing a dummy God.
Vague arguments cannot solve any problem.
the probability of gawd is slim to none. period.
if you say yes there is a gawd... THEN PRESENT ONE SHRED OF EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE OR A LOGICAL PROOF FOR ITS EXISTENCEvague arguments and non sequiturs are NOT extant material evidence nor logical proofs... neither are your "feelings"... ::)
since you can't provide either of the above... THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT FAITH... YOU IDIOT.how about you faithers all just shut the fuck up about your childish little imaginary godfairy savior/creator friends...
Quote from: Newton II on October 01, 2012, 01:43:24 PM
I am not that much arrogant to call myself God.
but you're certainly arrogant enough to foist your imaginary gawd/fairy/savior/creator friend upon others.... as evidenced by this thread.
::)
and thank you for your tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Quote from: Newton II on October 02, 2012, 02:06:10 PM
Don’t connect god with religion. Religions just show different ways to reach God. I meant I can find my own way to reach God instead of following ways shown by others.
On this point, I think the religions are correct. There is no god without religion. Because first of all, there is no evidence for god. So, the only way the god idea gets spread is through religious dogma. Without religion, god is just truly each person's own imaginary friend. With religion, at least people agree on a common idea of the imaginary friend.
OK
So what the Bleep do you really Know ?
Science don't agree with your Evolution theory anymore [well.... the latest and greatest flavor] So you fellows are evolving into an everchanging "what the bleep do we believe today" Club.
EatenBarbeque [my perception] I don't buy your "makes sense to me" approach to why Evolution would not evolve a perpetual being .Not one example of this anywhere accross the broad spectrum of "Evolution".Boulderdash !!,A system that rebuilds itself from the ground up daily [practically],and not one example of an "Exact" copy...always a little older and closer to Death. Heck we Mortals can do better than that................
Death is a Design feature of a much bigger Plan.....[or probability of God]
Thx
Chet
God is good in fact god is great thankyou for our food (especially those apples from the tree of knowlege) The End
My version of the garden of edan story. Some stupid fucking angel goes to Eve don't you want to eat from the tree God forbade you to eat it's fruit. Eve turns around picksup a rock and smashes the fucking snakebreed dead. Brings it home puts it on a spit and eats it. Then for desert she has apple pie alamode.
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 07:25:26 PM
OK
So what the Bleep do you really Know ?
Science don't agree with your Evolution theory anymore [well.... the latest and greatest flavor] So you fellows are evolving into an everchanging "what the bleep do we believe today" Club.
EatenBarbeque [my perception] I don't buy your "makes sense to me" approach to why Evolution would not evolve a perpetual being .Not one example of this anywhere accross the broad spectrum of "Evolution".Boulderdash !!,A system that rebuilds itself from the ground up daily [practically],and not one example of an "Exact" copy...always a little older and closer to Death. Heck we Mortals can do better than that................
Death is a Design feature of a much bigger Plan.....[or probability of God]
Thx
Chet
chetito is proof that the flying spaghetti monster works in mysterious ways...
Sparks
Your Eve sounds like a Tuff Gal........................cept I think she had some "Pasta" Too ......[spagetti monster Stew !:,}
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 07:25:26 PM
EatenBarbeque [my perception] I don't buy your "makes sense to me" approach to why Evolution would not evolve a perpetual being .Not one example of this anywhere accross the broad spectrum of "Evolution".Boulderdash !!,A system that rebuilds itself from the ground up daily [practically],and not one example of an "Exact" copy...always a little older and closer to Death. Heck we Mortals can do better than that................
Death is a Design feature of a much bigger Plan.....[or probability of God]
Thx
Chet
I see you are back to mangling my ID as a tactic.
But to answer your question, death is perfectly compatible with evolution. If members of species never died, there would be no evolution. The key to evolution is adaptation through passing on superior genes to offspring, i.e. your replacement. So everyone has to die to be replaced by something better.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 02, 2012, 04:21:07 PM
if you say yes there is a gawd... THEN PRESENT ONE SHRED OF EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE OR A LOGICAL PROOF FOR ITS EXISTENCE
God is not so cheap so that any layman can prove his exisatnce. You have to follow the right path, evolve to the level of Buddha and realise God by yourself or you have to wait for a saint like Jesus to take birth to prove God's existance.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 02, 2012, 04:21:07 PM
since you can't provide either of the above... THAT'S WHY THEY CALL IT FAITH... YOU IDIOT.
I think you have evolved from a dog instead of a monkey. Stray dogs take birth only to bark at others and don't have any other purpose.
If you don't believe in God or holy books, you collect all the holy books available on this earth, lift your leg and
urinate on them. (of all animals only dog
urinates in unique style lifting its leg and exposing its genital to all)
If dog
urinates on holy books it will not change the holyness of holy books but only proves that dog is an
idiotAfter that you change your name as
Wilby UrinatedAfter that you drown the entire earth with your precious
urinePS : I am designing a computer game in which hero kills his enemies by
Urinating on them. I would name the game as '
Willy the Urinator'
As this thread is about the Probability of God I consider the probability to be infinitesimally small.
Of course that will not convince many people as they cant cope with life without their crutch.
Quote from: Newton II on October 03, 2012, 12:01:53 AM
God is not so cheap so that any layman can prove his exisatnce. You have to follow the right path, evolve to the level of Buddha and realise God by yourself or you have to wait for a saint like Jesus to take birth to prove God's existance.
I think you have evolved from a dog instead of a monkey. Stray dogs take birth only to bark at others and don't have any other purpose.
If you don't believe in God or holy books, you collect all the holy books available on this earth, lift your leg and urinate on them. (of all animals only dog urinates in unique style lifting its leg and exposing its genital to all)
If dog urinates on holy books it will not change the holyness of holy books but only proves that dog is an idiot
After that you change your name as Wilby Urinated
After that you drown the entire earth with your precious urine
PS : I am designing a computer game in which hero kills his enemies by Urinating on them. I would name the game as ' Willy the Urinator'
thank you for your tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Eatin
"Let us fall on our sword so the next generation will be better"
Sounds to me like you have made evolution into its own "Sentient being state" ,capable of conscious decisions towards an ultimate goal.
Very Sweet......All squishy and Cuddley.
Nah you boys have a problem ,Evolution has not made the obvious choice to evolve away from Dying in some way EVER
Death The probability of a designed system a creator ............
But we'll just go round and round on that,
Death and Taxes.
Have a good day
Chet
I think the God described in the book of truth mixed with lies deceptions and whatever needed for various political agendas at the time of editing may have been female. Satan a male gets pissed because God's assembly line is churning out beautiful women by the thousands. Satan purported to be a good looking guy with wings was more probably an ugly flying monkey. He storms off and gets a bunch of flying monkeys to attack the factory. Various worker flying monkeys seeking job security defend the beautiful women factory in the sky. God says fuck this I'm closing the plant and relocating to another galaxy where there are no unions of slaves to deal with.. This leaves Earthlings all fuckedup. We got beautiful women and fucked up flying monkies with no wings. The monkey things herd the beautiful women and get them to slave for them. They abuse them and stress them out to the point that the beautiful womens dna gets all fuckedup and starts developing testosterone instead of estrogen. That leaves us with todays situation. Devolved beautiful women better known as humans.
The 'Probability of God' is no less than the 'Probability of You'! The 'Probability of God' (Heavenly Father) is no less than the 'Probability of you having an earthly father'! On this basis alone, I consider the probability to be infinitely great. Get over it, mankind is not the "be all" or the greatest this universe has to offer. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: ramset on October 03, 2012, 09:38:24 AM
Eatin
"Let us fall on our sword so the next generation will be better"
Sounds to me like you have made evolution into its own "Sentient being state" ,capable of conscious decisions towards an ultimate goal.
Very Sweet......All squishy and Cuddley.
Nah you boys have a problem ,Evolution has not made the obvious choice to evolve away from Dying in some way EVER
Death The probability of a designed system a creator ............
But we'll just go round and round on that,
Death and Taxes.
Have a good day
Chet
Evolution speaks for itself. There is no debate in it. We are watching it in action, and that's how it works.
For ALL of those yearning for a deeper relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, or for those of you interested in knowing more about how to receive eternal life, and how to have your own living, abiding relationship with the Saviour of the world, you can follow my daily devotional feed.
Subscribe here:
http://www.facebook.com/bruce.tentzer (http://www.facebook.com/bruce.tentzer)
His servant,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 03, 2012, 12:11:29 PM
For ALL of those yearning for a deeper relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, or for those of you interested in knowing more about how to receive eternal life, and how to have your own living, abiding relationship with the Saviour of the world, you can follow my daily devotional feed.
Subscribe here:
http://www.facebook.com/bruce.tentzer (http://www.facebook.com/bruce.tentzer)
His servant,
Bruce
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fholyjoe.org%2Fdogmas.doc&ei=coBsUOabOIOvyQGHtYGADQ&usg=AFQjCNHPDd6gTheok9uClRFm_laVD6ZCnQ (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fholyjoe.org%2Fdogmas.doc&ei=coBsUOabOIOvyQGHtYGADQ&usg=AFQjCNHPDd6gTheok9uClRFm_laVD6ZCnQ)
Above is a llink to "The 255 Infallibly Declared Dogmas of the Catholic Faith".
Wilby and other atheists (not me, I guess I'm still a believer, only on different level): from these dogmas you have a chance to ascertain yourself, how those all believers are frightened: normally, people are frightened "to death"; religious believers, like Bruce_TPU are frightened far more than to their death, since it governs also the "after-death" state. Thus, a discussion with them about something called God is desperately hopeless; once their authorities pump those dogmas into their heads, this becomes their "mantra"; they stubbornly convince themselves mutually, that they believe this nonsense. I know, because I'm an "ex."
Edit
Some recent church authorities, under some pression, (mostly scientific) consider God as a state of mind. However, dogmas make impossible such efforts leading sometimes to really ridiculous but mostly hipocritic means.
Fear governs everything.
Everybody is afraid. The believer fears there is no god and the atheist fears there actually is a god.
I can only say this:
1. If there is an Intent behind the evolutionary progress, it is nothing close to anyones cosy image of a favouring god.
2. If evolution and the creation of consciousness is the result of pure chance executed within an infinitie and eternal playground,
there is still nothing that exludes multidimensional and transcendental realms beyond death. Spiritualism does not need any
god, it may be a fully natural part of reality.
Here's something for you to think about:
Don't underestimate infinity. Infinity cannot be infinite if it did not include its own exclusion. ;)
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 03, 2012, 12:11:29 PM
For ALL of those yearning for a deeper relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, or for those of you interested in knowing more about how to receive eternal life, and how to have your own living, abiding relationship with the Saviour of the world, you can follow my daily devotional feed.
Subscribe here:
http://www.facebook.com/bruce.tentzer (http://www.facebook.com/bruce.tentzer)
His servant,
Bruce
ohhh a deeper relationship with your imaginary gawd/fairy/savior/creator friend... ::) how moronic... and childish.
i don't negotiate with terrorists... which is why i give moronic faithers like you, exactly 3 seconds to get off my porch before i send them to meet their precious jesus...
and thank you for your tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Quote from: Gwandau on October 03, 2012, 03:39:33 PM
Fear governs everything.
Everybody is afraid. The believer fears there is no god and the atheist fears there actually is a god.
I can only say this:
1. If there is an Intent behind the evolutionary progress, it is nothing close to anyones cosy image of a favouring god.
2. If evolution and the creation of consciousness is the result of pure chance executed within an infinitie and eternal playground,
there is still nothing that exludes multidimensional and transcendental realms beyond death. Spiritualism does not need any
god, it may be a fully natural part of reality.
Oh come on. I do not know of a single atheist who fears that there is a god. After all, not only does there have to be a creator, that creator has to actually care whether we believe in him or not, and care enough to exact some petty punishment on those who refused to believe in his existence on bad evidence.
As far as your speculation on a multidimensional universe with relation to spiritualism, this is still hogwash. What evidence is there of a god who actually cares about your thoughts. That's what spiritualism is, mind you, talking to yourself in your head and hoping god is listening. It is borderline insanity.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 03, 2012, 04:42:22 PM
ohhh a deeper relationship with your imaginary gawd/fairy/savior/creator friend... ::) how moronic... and childish.
i don't negotiate with terrorists... which is why i give moronic faithers like you, exactly 3 seconds to get off my porch before i send them to meet their precious jesus...
and thank you for your tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Ha! That bold faced sentence made me laugh. Logical? Compared to what, humanism, the worship of self? Reasonable? God takes the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Scientific? "yet even seeing one come back from the dead, yet they still will not believe".
What posts of anger, hatred and vitriol. Not surprising, for "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."
No fear, for "perfect love casts out all fear". Truth? ABSOLUTELY! The truth is that JESUS CHRIST (Messiah) is the way, the truth and the life. And no man cometh unto the Father but through Him.
Evidence and proof? A changed heart and a changed life. Mine. I once was like you all. Without faith, without hope and without God. Heady, highminded, a lover of pleasure more than of God. A sinner. Wretched, unhappy, miserable, without hope and with God. But there is GOOD NEWS! Jesus, the Son of God, died upon the cross. He who knew no sin, became sin, taking my shame and penelty of death. Sin seperates from God. We have ALL sinned (missed the mark) in comparison to a Holy God. Eternally lost and without hope. But God, in His infinate wisdom and love, allowd Jesus, to be a substitute, and to pay the ultimate price. MY sin was nailed to that cross. I came to my senses over three decades ago, and accepted payment for my crime. We have all sinned (in comparison to a Holy God, not to one another), for if any man says that he has not sinned, that man is a liar and the truth is not in him. But the GOOD NEWS is that our sins can be washed away, and we can be changed, born again. Born not of this world, but of the spirit. For that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. You can neither see the wind nor know from where it came. But you can see the EFFECTS of that wind upon the things that it influences. That wind of His Holy Spirit calls out to everone who reads these words, to repent, and to turn to the living God, while there is still time.....
Below is a repost of my Resurrection Sunday message I wrote on my thread, this year. It is the "proof" that changed my life. Open your heart and mind. Call out to Him, and ask Him yourself, to show himself real to you! He is a living God. It is not like worshipping idols that neither see nor hear, that are both deaf and dumb.
Resurrection Sunday Message
Good morning and happy Resurrection Sunday. This day is truly a celebration of the life giving power of the Lord Jesus Christ, by the Power of His Holy Spirit.
That very same Holy Spirit, whose power enveloped the fallen, crucified corpse of our Savior, uniting his blessed Soul and Spirit, in an instantaneous explosion of resurrection power, Jesus arose from the dead.
Now, across the barrier of time, a young man, at the tender age of 17, cries out to Jesus, asking forgiveness for his sins, and speaking out with his mouth, aloud, that Jesus Christ was Lord, and believed in his heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead.
Suddenly, not in the darkness of a cave, once used as a rich man’s tomb, but rather, in the darkness of a mobile home, His light, shone through the darkness, exploding His love and resurrection power through that young man’s soul and heart. Like a warm oil flowing from the top of his head to the souls of his teenage feet, Christ’s Holy Spirit poured out God’s love and forgiveness.
That young man shed tears, borne of a tormented soul, now freed. As he looked around the room he had been kneeling in, he felt different. He felt new. He felt clean. He grew in the knowledge of the Lord and in the Lord’s wisdom. The Lord Jesus had called him, as a new creation, a new creature in Christ, to walk in newness of life.
The teen grew from youth to manhood, standing on the promise daily, that the mercies of the Lord are new every morning. Every day the Lord Jesus reaches out by loving kindness, mercy, and undeserved Grace.
He was that young teen. And he is now a middle aged man. A man who understands and recognizes that every breath taken and every beat of his heart brings him one step closer to eternity. The Lord Jesus Christ has been his best friend throughout his life, since that resurrection day. He has never failed, nor faltered, and always has the man’s best interest at heart.
I of course, am that man.
And you too can have your own resurrection story, if you will but humble yourself before a mighty God, speak out with your mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, believing with all of your heart that God, has raised Jesus from the dead. Do this today. Do this now. Do not hesitate nor falter. The religions of this world produce death. But only a true relationship with God the Father, through Jesus Christ the Lord, can raise you to new life. Behold old things are passed away, the Bible says, and all things are become new. The most important, life altering, eternity deciding, choice you can make, is to allow Jesus to become Lord, and savior of your life. He was raised from the dead, and today, this very moment, is knocking on the door to your heart, wanting to impart His life, peace and joy into you, and to raise you up.
Jesus said, to cast your burdens upon him and to learn of him, for his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Throw off the burden of doubt and unbelief. Have faith, and His promises will never falter nor fail, and your name too shall be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Eternity calls us all, so choose you this day whom you will serve. Serve self, and you will fail. Serve religions of man, and it shall come to nothing for they are but dumb idols who neither speak nor see. Serve money, and it will not last.
For our life is as a vapor of smoke. Here for a moment and then gone.
But as for me and my house, we will serve the risen Lord Jesus, the messiah and blessed Son of the most High.
And he shall return with the shout of an Angel and the trumpet of God shall sound. For those who are called by his name they shall be changed. Those who have died in Christ shall rise first. And then in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye they shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall they ever be with Him. Amen
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 04, 2012, 01:11:36 AM
Ha! That bold faced sentence made me laugh. Logical? Compared to what, humanism, the worship of self? Reasonable? God takes the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Scientific? "yet even seeing one come back from the dead, yet they still will not believe".
What posts of anger, hatred and vitriol. Not surprising, for "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."
No fear, for "perfect love casts out all fear". Truth? ABSOLUTELY! The truth is that JESUS CHRIST (Messiah) is the way, the truth and the life. And no man cometh unto the Father but through Him.
Evidence and proof? A changed heart and a changed life. Mine. I once was like you all. Without faith, without hope and without God. Heady, highminded, a lover of pleasure more than of God. A sinner. Wretched, unhappy, miserable, without hope and with God. But there is GOOD NEWS! Jesus, the Son of God, died upon the cross. He who knew no sin, became sin, taking my shame and penelty of death. Sin seperates from God. We have ALL sinned (missed the mark) in comparison to a Holy God. Eternally lost and without hope. But God, in His infinate wisdom and love, allowd Jesus, to be a substitute, and to pay the ultimate price. MY sin was nailed to that cross. I came to my senses over three decades ago, and accepted payment for my crime. We have all sinned (in comparison to a Holy God, not to one another), for if any man says that he has not sinned, that man is a liar and the truth is not in him. But the GOOD NEWS is that our sins can be washed away, and we can be changed, born again. Born not of this world, but of the spirit. For that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. You can neither see the wind nor know from where it came. But you can see the EFFECTS of that wind upon the things that it influences. That wind of His Holy Spirit calls out to everone who reads these words, to repent, and to turn to the living God, while there is still time.....
Below is a repost of my Resurrection Sunday message I wrote on my thread, this year. It is the "proof" that changed my life. Open your heart and mind. Call out to Him, and ask Him yourself, to show himself real to you! He is a living God. It is not like worshipping idols that neither see nor hear, that are both deaf and dumb.
Resurrection Sunday Message
Good morning and happy Resurrection Sunday. This day is truly a celebration of the life giving power of the Lord Jesus Christ, by the Power of His Holy Spirit.
That very same Holy Spirit, whose power enveloped the fallen, crucified corpse of our Savior, uniting his blessed Soul and Spirit, in an instantaneous explosion of resurrection power, Jesus arose from the dead.
Now, across the barrier of time, a young man, at the tender age of 17, cries out to Jesus, asking forgiveness for his sins, and speaking out with his mouth, aloud, that Jesus Christ was Lord, and believed in his heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead.
Suddenly, not in the darkness of a cave, once used as a rich man’s tomb, but rather, in the darkness of a mobile home, His light, shone through the darkness, exploding His love and resurrection power through that young man’s soul and heart. Like a warm oil flowing from the top of his head to the souls of his teenage feet, Christ’s Holy Spirit poured out God’s love and forgiveness.
That young man shed tears, borne of a tormented soul, now freed. As he looked around the room he had been kneeling in, he felt different. He felt new. He felt clean. He grew in the knowledge of the Lord and in the Lord’s wisdom. The Lord Jesus had called him, as a new creation, a new creature in Christ, to walk in newness of life.
The teen grew from youth to manhood, standing on the promise daily, that the mercies of the Lord are new every morning. Every day the Lord Jesus reaches out by loving kindness, mercy, and undeserved Grace.
He was that young teen. And he is now a middle aged man. A man who understands and recognizes that every breath taken and every beat of his heart brings him one step closer to eternity. The Lord Jesus Christ has been his best friend throughout his life, since that resurrection day. He has never failed, nor faltered, and always has the man’s best interest at heart.
I of course, am that man.
And you too can have your own resurrection story, if you will but humble yourself before a mighty God, speak out with your mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, believing with all of your heart that God, has raised Jesus from the dead. Do this today. Do this now. Do not hesitate nor falter. The religions of this world produce death. But only a true relationship with God the Father, through Jesus Christ the Lord, can raise you to new life. Behold old things are passed away, the Bible says, and all things are become new. The most important, life altering, eternity deciding, choice you can make, is to allow Jesus to become Lord, and savior of your life. He was raised from the dead, and today, this very moment, is knocking on the door to your heart, wanting to impart His life, peace and joy into you, and to raise you up.
Jesus said, to cast your burdens upon him and to learn of him, for his yoke is easy and his burden is light. Throw off the burden of doubt and unbelief. Have faith, and His promises will never falter nor fail, and your name too shall be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Eternity calls us all, so choose you this day whom you will serve. Serve self, and you will fail. Serve religions of man, and it shall come to nothing for they are but dumb idols who neither speak nor see. Serve money, and it will not last.
For our life is as a vapor of smoke. Here for a moment and then gone.
But as for me and my house, we will serve the risen Lord Jesus, the messiah and blessed Son of the most High.
And he shall return with the shout of an Angel and the trumpet of God shall sound. For those who are called by his name they shall be changed. Those who have died in Christ shall rise first. And then in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye they shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall they ever be with Him. Amen
yes, logical... as compared to the word salad of non sequiturs you continue to post as 'evidence' of your imaginary godfairy/creator/savior friend... the godfairy you have no more evidence for than you have for zeus or odin or vishnu or ra or any of the other gawds you reject... idiot.
and thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.edit: to paraphrase dawkins... the doctrine that your precious jesus died for your sins is barking mad... it's truly a disgusting idea that your 'creator' of the universe, capable of inventing the laws of physics and designing the evolutionary process, that this protégé of supernatural intellect couldn't think of a better way to forgive your sins than to have himself tortured to death... ::)
note that i said "your sins"... as they only apply to you asinine faithers and not the rest of humanity.
Quoteyou have no more evidence for than you have for zeus or odin or vishnu or ra or any of the other gawds you reject... idiot.
As everyone here knows quite well by now, Wilby has deep seated issues with authority. Methinks he doth protest too much....
Deep down, I believe he was scarred or burned after placing his faith in a brother. Wilby, you reject meaningful evidence out of hand because none could possibly fill the void left you by your earthly father. You attack the very idea of our Creator because of pain, not because of lack of evidence.
If God Himself must descend and hold your Hand in view of all before you believe, it is because you've failed to use the two of your own that were freely given you to find Truth.
God does not begin a work in a man and leave it unfinished....
Whether you believe Him or not.
Blessings in Christ
Quote from: TechStuf on October 04, 2012, 02:04:00 AM
As everyone here knows quite well by now, Wilby has deep seated issues with authority. Methinks he doth protest too much....
Deep down, I believe he was scarred or burned after placing his faith in a brother. Wilby, you reject meaningful evidence out of hand because none could possibly fill the void left you by your earthly father. You attack the very idea of our Creator because of pain, not because of lack of evidence.
If God Himself must descend and hold your Hand in view of all before you believe, it is because you've failed to use the two of your own that were freely given you to find Truth.
God does not begin a work in a man and leave it unfinished....
Whether you believe Him or not.
Blessings in Christ
you think i have issues with the 'authority' of your imaginary godfairy? ::) jesus fucking christ... you're insane.
and deep down you 'believe' in imaginary godfairies... so what? you speculate and assume and declare your assumptions and speculations to be factual by fiat? idiot. and what "meaningful evidence" have i rejected? you idiot faithers have none to present... and you aren't even honest enough with your insecure selves to admit that... even though it is the very definition of 'faith'. idiot.
your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend can't descend and hold my hand... because she's imaginary you idiot. did you have some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof to present for her existence? or are you just going to vomit the same logical fallacies you asinine faithers always vomit?
god is as real as leprechauns...
whether you believe in logic and reason or not.
may the flying spaghetti monster bless you with her sauce... may you be forever touched by her noodly appendage and may your balls be forever meaty. repent you filthy spooner, repent!
techstuf and bruce, the hypocrites, consider their religion worthless as evidenced by the holy bible... which we all know is infallable.
james 1:26
those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
bruce must be out gambling... ::)
I agree wholeheartedly. You misapply such scripture because you don't value the very words you cite. Before one can value anyone or anything else, that one must first value one's self.
Look inward and see that the seed begun in you is not dead, and neither is the one who sowed it in you in the first place. Your fight is not with "gawd fairies" and those who believe in our Creator but with yourself and false religions of all kind, including your own.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm (http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm)
Blessings in Christ
Quote from: TechStuf on October 04, 2012, 02:49:31 AM
I agree wholeheartedly. You misapply such scripture because you don't value the very words you cite. Before one can value anyone or anything else, that one must first value one's self.
Look inward and see that the seed begun in you is not dead, and neither is the one who sowed it in you in the first place. Your fight is not with "gawd fairies" and those who believe in our Creator but with yourself and false religions of all kind, including your own.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm (http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/2hands/2hands1.htm)
Blessings in Christ
you agree wholeheartedly that your religion is worthless... finally we agree on something!
furthermore i haven't "misapplied" anything... as evidenced by your holy bible:
james on listening and doing...19 My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20 because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. 21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in itâ€"not forgetting what they have heard, but doing itâ€"they will be blessed in what they do.
26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd. and my 'fight' is with asinine, pretentious, sanctimoniously insane faithers like you...
repent you filthy spooner! repent! the sauce of the flying spaghetti monster is the only way to everlasting life and eternal salvation. your gawd of abraham is insignificant next to the power of the sauce!
I feel remiss in not answering some of these statements as best I can
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
Chris
Thanks again for your reply,And from your perspective it makes sense ,and in a lot of ways mine too.....
There's always "Buts".......If you Don't know already I work with addicts and I teach them the 12 step program.The results are amazing.......
Good for you :)
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
But we won't talk about that "Again".Perhaps we should talk about the epidemic of "drugs" and abuse all accross the spectrum in our society,Peeps are freekin out [quietly] this "everyman for himself" thing isn't cutting it,we are getting further and further away from being a "herd" where we see each other and interact on a daily basis,I can't even remember the last time I saw Kids playing together outside? Our kids are in the house playing Video games ...being Desensitized to violence and suffering at an astounding rate.[subject to HUGE peer pressure if they don't].
All societies go through these types of swings. To say its due to a lack of godliness is being terribly simplistc. Its due to many things. BUT you raise a point worth commenting on more.
Religion came about before formulated laws. Religion is the rule of fear.
Don't say your prayers you'll go to hell
Don't do this or god will punish you
Don't do that or the same thing, god will punish you
Religion has always used the fear of God as the stick to beat down people with. Its an effective tool for the less intellectual and the poorly educated. but it also had its positives. just like we have good laws today. Often those positive rules are no longer required but still continue to haunt us. an example of this is the religious laws in many religions of not eating pork.
Why was such a rule put into place. It seems an odd and arbitrary rule for man to implement. Well actually it wasnt (it is now). Pigs are carion eaters they are also biologically similar to humans. as such we can get diseases from pigs easier than most animals. and because pigs were carion eaters, they used to feed on the dead. Thus eating pork could give you diseases.
Therefore some clever and caring person said "God forbids the eating of pork". It was to stop people who didn't see the connection between pork and diseases from eating them. but the rule continues today long after pigs feed on the battle ground. it is no longer a law that is needed.
So religion uses God and still does to get its way with people of lesser intellect (the great majority) As I like to say (jokingly) 50% of all people have below average intelligence. and average is pretty ordinary if you ask me.
This brings me to what sort of a god, God must be.
1/ If he is all knowing. Why create a people where the great majority will spend eternity in Hell. Does that sound caring?
2/ Why did ONE THIRD of all the angels leave heaven and side with Lucifer IF THEY knew they could only lose THEY NEW GOD better than any human could. He must have been real nasty to cause that to happen.
3/ Think of poor old Lots wife. Her husband A real right prick offered his own daughters up to the angry mob rather than stand and fight for his family and the strangers he had taken into his care. He also broke the rules by allowing them in because it was not safe to let strangers in to a city at night. Then God tells them to leave and not look back. Perhaps Lots wife heard the screams and anguish of her loved ones left behind. Perhaps there was a loud explosion, we will never know for sure why but Lots wife looked over her shoulder and was turned to a pillar of salt. How do you think Lot felt about that. His poor wife who loved him and followed him into such great danger was punished for what? What sort of a caring and loving god could do that. No-one I could worship that's for sure.
I could go on but I am sure you get the picture. Except for one more thing on this point. Cause I know you'll say that was the old testament. Then why did god wait 3000 years before sending in Jesus to save the day? Why wait so long before you decide its time to be a more forgiving being. Was he having second thoughts about the way he behaved? I should hope so, but if he was having second thoughts then he is not infallible and therefore he is not a God.
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
Basically Chris ...The lack of Character and morals and values[family] is manifeating itself into the REALITY of what a world like the one you say is possible ......actually looks like, Cut out God [the three above] from your society and put back What?
Again a very basic failing of logic. Why put something back? There is no need to put anything back, there is no hole to fill. you might be lost for what to do on a Sunday morning but apart from that?
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
I relate to your Nature completely , however thats just "You" ,maybe there are others[ofcourse] ,hinging societys future on "well I can do it".why can't you .......RISKY !! One thing is obvious changes are happening and they are happening fast
I don't understand what you are trying to say here, apart from perhaps one or two too many drinks
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
Regarding the Chem,biological Nuclear Etc Warfare and Why we are still all here? I put it on the same page as why in a world that is nothing more than evolution...Why isn't there one example of anything, anywhere that lives forever?[yet]
A design feature ............[the probability of God !:,]
You obviously didn't read my post where I pointed to a jellyfish considered immortal.
Again you want more. but there doesn't have to be more. Some times the deeper you look into your navel you only find more lint. Taking away god leaves no emptiness in the universe. Nothing needs to be put back to fill it.
But you keep repeating that. my guess is because its what is said to you countless times of many years so you cannot divorce yourself of it.
Quote from: ramset on October 02, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
Oh and the Gaps get bigger the more we learn.....
Chris your a cool guy, Thanks for talking.
Chet
The Gaps get smaller. Its our horizon that's getting bigger. As we see more, we see there is so much more to see. and that is exciting. For some its frightening so they retreat to the safety net of their favourite religion.
I have a saying, (yes another one) depending on where you are in your Christianity this may or may not mean something but I'll leave it out there anyway. because for me it exemplifies the inconsistency of religion
I asked my Father once why he had changed his opinion about something I cannot remember what, but it was a religious opinion. My mother overheard me and Said "Oh' but we
have grown in the lord since then"
So I coined this little saying "Last Years truth is this years, Oh we have grown in the lord since then"
How quickly truth is replaced.
CC
Chris
Thanks for the responce. I think you missunderstand my point,as a matter of fact I think all you guys that are beating up "Gods" miss my point
.
A CREATOR.............You spend so much time fighting some shadow ,you won;t even acknowledge a design feature or fingerprint left behind ,your absolute terror of all things religious and your predisposed opinion that religions are for ignoramus's,has left you trapped.
Here, you are right this works great for you guys.
"Last Years truth is this years, Oh we have grown in the lord since then"
Here, I know you must have read about this ""Epigenetics" [presently flushing Darwin down the toilet],Now it seems Virus's and all manner of "Micro" can influence your future
Sparks actually hit on one thing with his "D" evolution regarding woman and hermafradotia [with guys like "W" on the menu, who would have thunk it !:.}
Chris stop thinking about "Them"
think for yourself ..........
thx
Chet
PS
W ,I hope I made some spelling mistakes !:.}
oh you made plenty chetito... you never fail to disappoint me with your level of ignorance.
but i digress... i thought i'd grace you with a few more 'flavors'.
bring your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend over for bbq on oct. 31 and he/she/it can become a burning bush and speak to me from said burning bush... i'll even supply the bush.
or you could gather up a coven of your fellow faithers and regrow an amputee's lost limb(s) with the power of prayer and supplication to your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
or you could just be your usual pretentious, sanctimonious, hypocritical self and refuse to present the method(s) you used to falsify all the other gods humanity has created or the method(s) you used to validate yours.
i'm betting you choose the last option... ::)
Quote from: ramset on October 04, 2012, 09:04:39 AM
Chris
Thanks for the responce. I think you missunderstand my point,as a matter of fact I think all you guys that are beating up "Gods" miss my point
.
A CREATOR.............You spend so much time fighting some shadow ,you won;t even acknowledge a design feature or fingerprint left behind ,your absolute terror of all things religious and your predisposed opinion that religions are for ignoramus's,has left you trapped.
Here, you are right this works great for you guys.
"Last Years truth is this years, Oh we have grown in the lord since then"
Here, I know you must have read about this ""Epigenetics" ,Now it seems Virus's and all manner of "Micro" can influence your future
Sparks actually hit on one thing with his D evolution regarding woman and hermafradotia [with guys like "W" out there who woulda thunk it!:.}
Chris stop thinking about "Them"
think for yourself ..........
thx
Chet
No I am pretty sure you miss my point. Either deliberately or purely from lack of understanding.
There is no "Design Fingerprint". But there are plenty of people who want you to believe that. If I look long and hard enough at clouds I can make out all sorts of shapes which remind me of other things. but that does not mean those clouds were designed with that in mind.
Epigenetics. How does that support your story? Are you saying its a feature of design? I am afraid you are making that part up. The MSU principle remember. Talk to any real geneticist and see what he thinks of your "design". Of course virii effect our future. they are very much a part of our past and more important to us than most realise. Did you know that there are more bacteria in our body than human cells? Does the bacteria go to heaven as well? You wouldn't be the person you are now without them!
I don't know where 'THEM' came from. Are you trying to put words into my mouth I never spoke about 'them' and unlike any and every follower of religion I certainly do think for myself. I do not nor will I ever be told how to think by some person who has one hand in the air praising god and the other in my pocket stealing my wallet.
I am not sure what you meant by repeating my little quote. but in case you don't understand its meaning I'll spell it out for you.
Christians are constantly changing what they call the truth. In fact every christian I have known has their own variable version of the truth. It depends entirely on their current circumstance. It also means few christian stay in one church their entire lives most will move as their own beliefs change to a church which more suits them and their current belief. Have you ever changed churches because you don't agree with them?
Whereas in science there are very very few 'truths' there are only theories. because science is wise enough to know that you can never know everything about anything. in that way science is honest (not all scientists are of course) I dare you to find an honest religion. of course the one you 'currently' follow is the only one you can suggest. otherwise you'd be following the other one wouldn't you!
I see you withered away from any discussion on your loving and merciful god. because you know for every claim of love and mercy I can throw back a dozen of cruelty and inhumanity.
you xian cultists are so funny... creepy and scary, but funny all the same...
another day of no extant material evidence nor logical proofs for the existence of imaginary godfairy savior friends... ::)
another day where not a single faither has presented the method(s) used to falsify all the godfairies they don't believe in... or the method(s) used to validate the godfairy they do believe in... ::)
edit: and chetito... if gawd made man from dust... why is there still dust?
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 04, 2012, 01:11:36 AM
Evidence and proof? A changed heart and a changed life. Mine. I once was like you all. Without faith, without hope and without God. Heady, highminded, a lover of pleasure more than of God. A sinner. Wretched, unhappy, miserable, without hope and with God. But there is GOOD NEWS! Jesus, the Son of God, died upon the cross. He who knew no sin, became sin, taking my shame and penelty of death. Sin seperates from God. We have ALL sinned (missed the mark) in comparison to a Holy God. ng of an eye they shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall they ever be with Him. Amen
This makes no sense. God is all powerful and all knowing. He knew very well when he created man, he created sin. So why hold man responsible? And what is this obsession with human sacrifice? And what kind of a sacrifice is it anyway? He created a son, himself, and then sacrificed himself to himself. Presumably, he can just create himself as a new son a thousand times a day. What kind of sacrifice is this? It is like me blowing my nose, holding up the tissue, burning it, and claiming I sacrificed something of value. This is all trivial to god. He may as well just have said, "Hey guys, I forgive you."
And this is all before we even get to the justice of it. How is torturing someone else absolve you of your wrongdoing. Imagine if our courts worked that way. You steal a car, no problem. The judge just has the bailiff whip someone else, and poof, you are absolved.
And why does god need us to believe in him? Is he that petty, that he needs constant adulation? You would think god would be above those petty motives. And if he really wants a close relationship with us, he should just come out and talk to us, instead of having some guy 2000 years ago write a book, and then have us talk to him by talking to ourselves in hour head? Why the hearsay testimony of the bible? If he is so infinitely wise, as they tell us he is, how about a clearer way to send a message? This is the age of the Internet. Where is god's website and twitter account? Or heck, just write it out in clouds. Anything substantially more current than a 2000 year old book would be great.
Chris
I don't go to Choich...,And "You" just arrived where I started.....not where I fell back to.
But you keep mentioning religions and "christians" and Choiches. {W Too}
I see fingerprints of design.... Virus and microb's can alter your DNA in one generation .
I see DNA as a very big design feature.{not the obvious .....some say it holds a code of another Nature, a language of sorts]
just out here paying attention with no axe to grind.
Thx
Chet
And to the readers of this foray, I say, you shall know them by their fruits. It's funny, ya know. I once met a man who worked for the secret service, and we talked about counterfeit bills and how to spot them. A comment was made about how many DIFFERENT types of counterfeits there must be, and I asked him how in the world they had time to research each type, as to spot the fake. He laughed and said that they never studied the fakes, to spot a fake, but only knew the REAL THING so well, as to anything fake came along was INSTANTLY RECOGNIZED. I have met Jesus and he has been a part of my life for over 30 years. If others cuss at that and blaspheme His Holy name, that is between them and God. I know the REAL. Some posts here sound like a little child having a wicked tantrum because someone said something they don't like. I say tough, get over it, and let the TRUTH set you free! Let him who has ears to hear, listen....
His Servant,
Bruce
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 04, 2012, 10:08:32 AM
This makes no sense. God is all powerful and all knowing. He knew very well when he created man, he created sin. So why hold man responsible? And what is this obsession with human sacrifice? And what kind of a sacrifice is it anyway? He created a son, himself, and then sacrificed himself to himself. Presumably, he can just create himself as a new son a thousand times a day. What kind of sacrifice is this? It is like me blowing my nose, holding up the tissue, burning it, and claiming I sacrificed something of value. This is all trivial to god. He may as well just have said, "Hey guys, I forgive you."
And this is all before we even get to the justice of it. How is torturing someone else absolve you of your wrongdoing. Imagine if our courts worked that way. You steal a car, no problem. The judge just has the bailiff whip someone else, and poof, you are absolved.
And why does god need us to believe in him? Is he that petty, that he needs constant adulation? You would think god would be above those petty motives. And if he really wants a close relationship with us, he should just come out and talk to us, instead of having some guy 2000 years ago write a book, and then have us talk to him by talking to ourselves in hour head? Why the hearsay testimony of the bible? If he is so infinitely wise, as they tell us he is, how about a clearer way to send a message? This is the age of the Internet. Where is god's website and twitter account? Or heck, just write it out in clouds. Anything substantially more current than a 2000 year old book would be great.
God did not "Create" Sin. Sin was first created in the heart of Lucifer, when he allowed PRIDE to enter his heart and decided he would be God. (People do this EVERYDAY including some of the posters on this board). Satan (meaning "deceiver") then went and tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God, by LIEING about God. (Satan's gameplan has not changed, as one can easily discern).
Once Adam and Eve sinned against God, that "sin nature" was passed through their blood to all of their off spring. One can think of it as a "blood disease". Throughout the entire Old Testament a blood sacrifice was required, and accepted by the Lord. It was accepted because they were a "temporary" covering of sin, until which time Chist Jesus would be upon that cross shedding His own blood. God is a triune being. One God, three parts. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Even in Genesis, one can see this when he says, "Let US make man in OUR image." And yes in the Hebrew it says the same thing. But truth be known, you will never understand with the natural mind, the things of God, for God is a Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
There was a great gulf between man and God, caused by sin. And no false gods and religions of man can bridge that gap. So God, in His infinate wisdom and love, built a bridge so that man could once again walk in fellowship with God. I am here to day to testify to all the readers, that Jesus is that bridge. That God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten son, so that whosoever (that would be you, the reader) believes in HIM, would not perish, but have eternal life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Lastly, oh arrogant man, God does not "need you to believe in Him", but rather, in His infinate mercy, has given you an opportunity to escape the damnation that SIN brings. For the wages (paycheck) of Sin is death (eternal seperation from God), but the FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE. Hell's fire was created for the devil and for his angels. It is God's will that NONE should perish. But know know this, O Man, that anyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life, for the books will be opened, shall be cast alive into the lake of fire. For the books will be opened on that day. Hells fire is a place of torment, a place where eternity is spent remembering the opportunities one had to repent and to receive the gift of God, eternal life, and ones rejection of that. It is a place where the worm never dies, and where the tongue is indeed set on fire. Worms crawling throughtout the body, the tongue on fire, and no light, but rather eternal darkness. Do NOT allow Satan, the deceiver of man to deceive you!! Awake O Man, and receive now the Gift of Life!! His Servant, Bruce
It is highly probable that large numbers of humans witnessed large numbers of supernatural events and attributed these events to supernatural beings. The problem lies in the definition as to what is natural. A tribe in micronesia is worshipping an aviator who landed on their island and have depicted the plane, the cigarette lighter, and the radio on a wall they regularly go to church at. It was logical for these people to ASSUME that this being and his technology were supernatural in essence. No where in their world dictated by THEIR laws of nature did such a being and his stuff exist. They used logic and assumed a supernatural being was in their midst. Various humans have named supernatural beings and their activities over the years that became part of their common reality and it is highly probable this behaviour will continue as natural laws are written-broken-and abandoned.
Sparks
"Straight Up"!!
You see design? or Chance.........?
Thx'
Chet
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 04, 2012, 11:09:41 AM
God did not "Create" Sin. Sin was first created in the heart of Lucifer, when he allowed PRIDE to enter his heart and decided he would be God. (People do this EVERYDAY including some of the posters on this board). Satan (meaning "deceiver") then went and tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God, by LIEING about God. (Satan's gameplan has not changed, as one can easily discern).
Once Adam and Eve sinned against God, that "sin nature" was passed through their blood to all of their off spring. One can think of it as a "blood disease". Throughout the entire Old Testament a blood sacrifice was required, and accepted by the Lord. It was accepted because they were a "temporary" covering of sin, until which time Chist Jesus would be upon that cross shedding His own blood. God is a triune being. One God, three parts. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Even in Genesis, one can see this when he says, "Let US make man in OUR image." And yes in the Hebrew it says the same thing. But truth be known, you will never understand with the natural mind, the things of God, for God is a Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
There was a great gulf between man and God, caused by sin. And no false gods and religions of man can bridge that gap. So God, in His infinate wisdom and love, built a bridge so that man could once again walk in fellowship with God. I am here to day to testify to all the readers, that Jesus is that bridge. That God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten son, so that whosoever (that would be you, the reader) believes in HIM, would not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Lastly, oh arrogant man, God does not "need you to believe in Him", but rather, in His infinate mercy, has given you an opportunity to escape the damnation that SIN brings. For the wages (paycheck) of Sin is death (eternal seperation from God), but the FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE. Hell's fire was created for the devil and for his angels. It is God's will that NONE should perish. But know know this, O Man, that anyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life, for the books will be opened, shall be cast alive into the lake of fire. For the books will be opened on that day. Hells fire is a place of torment, a place where eternity is spent remembering the opportunities one had to repent and to receive the gift of God, eternal life, and ones rejection of that. It is a place where the worm never dies, and where the tongue is indeed set on fire. Worms crawling throughtout the body, the tongue on fire, and no light, but rather eternal darkness. Do NOT allow Satan, the deceiver of man to deceive you!! Awake O Man, and receive now the Gift of Life!! His Servant, Bruce
This raises more questions than it answers. God is the creator of all things and is all knowing. Therefore god created Lucifer with the knowledge of what he would do and what effect it would have on man, but he went ahead and created it anyway. God is responsible for all things, and nothing happens without his knowing, so, by creating Lucifer and allowing him to exist, with the full knowledge of what would happen, he created the sin. Why did he do this?
I have also just learned that sins are apparently passed on from parents to innocent children. Is this sort of like North Korea, where three generations are imprisoned (one's children and parents), for a political transgression. Actually, it is worse than North Korea. There it only goes to three generations. With god, in his infinite wisdom, apparently everyone is guilty.
Also, I am curious about this mercy. Obviously, since god controls all things, he controls hell, where there is eternal torment for those guilty of the heinous sin of refusing to believe in him on bad evidence, and apparently this sin is worthy of eternal torture. Not a year, not 100 years, not 1000 years, but eternal. This is quite possibly the worst thing that could possibly happen, and god allows this to happen for seemingly minor infractions. Tell me again about his eternal mercy, I am confused on that part. If he did not want anyone to perish, he could simply allow everyone to heaven. Why not? Why hold this grudge? What happened to infinitely merciful? If one is infinitely merciful, as I understand god to be, should he not forgive people the simple mistake of being born in the wrong hemisphere and therefore believing in the wrong deity.
And what is with this blood sacrifice business? If this was practiced in our society, we would be abhorred by it. And how exactly does one atone for one's crime by slaughtering an innocent goat, or sheep or faithful dog? What did the animal do? How is this justice? Why was god so thirsty for blood that apparently anyone's blood would do? Why accept the blood of an innocent animal as atonement for the crime by a knowing and reasoning human evildoer? Can you imagine what that goat or sheep or poor puppy is thinking as it is about to be killed (probably thinking "what did I do?") And why wait for Jesus's coming to change these bloodthirsty rules. If blood sacrifice was wrong then, does that mean god was wrong and changed his mind. And why would god change his mind? Is he not infinitely wise, so should he not always make the correct decision the first time?
Also, finally, how do you even know any of this is true. Please do not tell me the Bible, as I can show you some books about Poseidon and Zeus.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 04, 2012, 10:39:00 AM
And to the readers of this foray, I say, you shall know them by their fruits. It's funny, ya know. I once met a man who worked for the secret service, and we talked about counterfeit bills and how to spot them. A comment was made about how many DIFFERENT types of counterfeits there must be, and I asked him how in the world they had time to research each type, as to spot the fake. He laughed and said that they never studied the fakes, to spot a fake, but only knew the REAL THING so well, as to anything fake came along was INSTANTLY RECOGNIZED. I have met Jesus and he has been a part of my life for over 30 years. If others cuss at that and blaspheme His Holy name, that is between them and God. I know the REAL. Some posts here sound like a little child having a wicked tantrum because someone said something they don't like. I say tough, get over it, and let the TRUTH set you free! Let him who has ears to hear, listen....
His Servant,
Bruce
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 04, 2012, 11:09:41 AM
God did not "Create" Sin. Sin was first created in the heart of Lucifer, when he allowed PRIDE to enter his heart and decided he would be God. (People do this EVERYDAY including some of the posters on this board). Satan (meaning "deceiver") then went and tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God, by LIEING about God. (Satan's gameplan has not changed, as one can easily discern).
Once Adam and Eve sinned against God, that "sin nature" was passed through their blood to all of their off spring. One can think of it as a "blood disease". Throughout the entire Old Testament a blood sacrifice was required, and accepted by the Lord. It was accepted because they were a "temporary" covering of sin, until which time Chist Jesus would be upon that cross shedding His own blood. God is a triune being. One God, three parts. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Even in Genesis, one can see this when he says, "Let US make man in OUR image." And yes in the Hebrew it says the same thing. But truth be known, you will never understand with the natural mind, the things of God, for God is a Spirit and those who worship Him, must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
There was a great gulf between man and God, caused by sin. And no false gods and religions of man can bridge that gap. So God, in His infinate wisdom and love, built a bridge so that man could once again walk in fellowship with God. I am here to day to testify to all the readers, that Jesus is that bridge. That God so loved the world that he sent His only begotten son, so that whosoever (that would be you, the reader) believes in HIM, would not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. Lastly, oh arrogant man, God does not "need you to believe in Him", but rather, in His infinate mercy, has given you an opportunity to escape the damnation that SIN brings. For the wages (paycheck) of Sin is death (eternal seperation from God), but the FREE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE. Hell's fire was created for the devil and for his angels. It is God's will that NONE should perish. But know know this, O Man, that anyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life, for the books will be opened, shall be cast alive into the lake of fire. For the books will be opened on that day. Hells fire is a place of torment, a place where eternity is spent remembering the opportunities one had to repent and to receive the gift of God, eternal life, and ones rejection of that. It is a place where the worm never dies, and where the tongue is indeed set on fire. Worms crawling throughtout the body, the tongue on fire, and no light, but rather eternal darkness. Do NOT allow Satan, the deceiver of man to deceive you!! Awake O Man, and receive now the Gift of Life!! His Servant, Bruce
the 'apple test' is logically flawed from the start.
if eve had not yet eaten from the tree of knowledge (of good and evil, right and wrong) how could she possibly KNOW it was evil/wrong to disobey gawd?
and thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 04, 2012, 02:44:15 PM
This raises more questions than it answers. God is the creator of all things and is all knowing. Therefore god created Lucifer with the knowledge of what he would do and what effect it would have on man, but he went ahead and created it anyway. God is responsible for all things, and nothing happens without his knowing, so, by creating Lucifer and allowing him to exist, with the full knowledge of what would happen, he created the sin. Why did he do this?
I have also just learned that sins are apparently passed on from parents to innocent children. Is this sort of like North Korea, where three generations are imprisoned (one's children and parents), for a political transgression. Actually, it is worse than North Korea. There it only goes to three generations. With god, in his infinite wisdom, apparently everyone is guilty.
Also, I am curious about this mercy. Obviously, since god controls all things, he controls hell, where there is eternal torment for those guilty of the heinous sin of refusing to believe in him on bad evidence, and apparently this sin is worthy of eternal torture. Not a year, not 100 years, not 1000 years, but eternal. This is quite possibly the worst thing that could possibly happen, and god allows this to happen for seemingly minor infractions. Tell me again about his eternal mercy, I am confused on that part. If he did not want anyone to perish, he could simply allow everyone to heaven. Why not? Why hold this grudge? What happened to infinitely merciful? If one is infinitely merciful, as I understand god to be, should he not forgive people the simple mistake of being born in the wrong hemisphere and therefore believing in the wrong deity.
And what is with this blood sacrifice business? If this was practiced in our society, we would be abhorred by it. And how exactly does one atone for one's crime by slaughtering an innocent goat, or sheep or faithful dog? What did the animal do? How is this justice? Why was god so thirsty for blood that apparently anyone's blood would do? Why accept the blood of an innocent animal as atonement for the crime by a knowing and reasoning human evildoer? Can you imagine what that goat or sheep or poor puppy is thinking as it is about to be killed (probably thinking "what did I do?") And why wait for Jesus's coming to change these bloodthirsty rules. If blood sacrifice was wrong then, does that mean god was wrong and changed his mind. And why would god change his mind? Is he not infinitely wise, so should he not always make the correct decision the first time?
Also, finally, how do you even know any of this is true. Please do not tell me the Bible, as I can show you some books about Poseidon and Zeus.
all of your questions can be answered by some asinine xian ad hoc fallacy... ;)
"i will create the universe, man, woman and a snake to talk them into getting the original sin. later, i will impregnate a virgin with myself as her child, so that i can be born. once alive, i will have myself killed as a sacrifice to me, so that i can save you from the sin that i originally condemned you to." -- god
understanding religious delusion
let's imagine that i tell you the following story:
there is a man who lives at the north pole.
he lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
during the year, he and the elves build toys.
then, on christmas eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
he puts the sack in his sleigh.
he hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
he then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
he gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
he leaves toys for the children of the household.
he climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
he does this all around the world in one night.
then he flies back to the north pole to repeat the cycle next year.
this, of course, is the story of santa claus.
but let's say that i am an adult, and i am your friend, and i reveal to you that i believe that this story is true. i believe it with all my heart. and i try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as i do.
what would you think of me? you would think that i am delusional, and rightly so.
why do you think that i am delusional? it is because you know that santa is imaginary. the story is a total fairy tale. no matter how much i talk to you about santa, you are not going to believe that santa is real. flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. the dictionary defines delusion as, "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." that definition fits perfectly.
since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in santa is a delusion. the way that you would try to do that is by asking me some questions. for example, you might say to me:
"but how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" i say to you that the sleigh is magical. it has the ability to do this intrinsically.
"how does santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" i say that santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie the santa clause.
"how does santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" i say that santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.
"why doesn't the security system detect santa?" santa is invisible to security systems.
"how can santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" santa is timeless.
"how can santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" santa is omniscient.
"why are the toys distributed so unevenly? why does santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" there is no way for us to understand the mysteries of santa because we are mere mortals, but santa has his reasons. for example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. how would they afford the batteries? so santa spares them this burden.
these are all quite logical questions that you have asked. i have answered all of them for you. i am wondering why you can't see what i see, and you are wondering how i can be so insane.
why didn't my answers satisfy you? why do you still know that i am delusional? it is because my answers have done nothing but confirm your assessment. my answers are ridiculous. in order to answer your questions, i invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. you don't believe my answers because you know that i am making this stuff up. the invalidating evidence is voluminous...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 06:42:14 PM
understanding religious delusion
let's imagine that i tell you the following story:
there is a man who lives at the north pole.
he lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
during the year, he and the elves build toys.
then, on christmas eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
he puts the sack in his sleigh.
he hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
he then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
he gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
he leaves toys for the children of the household.
he climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
he does this all around the world in one night.
then he flies back to the north pole to repeat the cycle next year.
this, of course, is the story of santa claus.
but let's say that i am an adult, and i am your friend, and i reveal to you that i believe that this story is true. i believe it with all my heart. and i try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as i do.
what would you think of me? you would think that i am delusional, and rightly so.
why do you think that i am delusional? it is because you know that santa is imaginary. the story is a total fairy tale. no matter how much i talk to you about santa, you are not going to believe that santa is real. flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. the dictionary defines delusion as, "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." that definition fits perfectly.
Ohh. I get it now.
You are still angry since you found out Santa wasnt real. :o ;)
Man up bud. Let it go. ;)
MaGs
Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 07:41:04 PM
Ohh. I get it now.
no you don't...
Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 07:41:04 PM
You are still angry since you found out Santa wasnt real. :o ;)
Man up bud. Let it go. ;)
MaGs
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.grow up bud... embrace logic, reason and science. imaginary friends are for the immature minds of children.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 06:42:14 PM
understanding religious delusion
let's imagine that i tell you the following story:
...
By this tale, I see you fully understand all those otherwise called "idiots".
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 07:43:30 PM
no you don't...
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Ooo goody. Do I get another star on the satanic "admission" score chart?
Its you that does not realize that your are being 'guided' by an invisible being, and it aint pretty. :o
What is it that you are saying that I admit to not being? "
logical, reasonable and scientific" Well, I see none of the above in your posts Wilb. just insults , quotes and just always angry. Yeah, thats reasonable, logical and scientific. ??? ;)
MaGs
Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 08:49:53 PM
Ooo goody. Do I get another star on the satanic "admission" score chart?
Its you that does not realize that your are being 'guided' by an invisible being, and it aint pretty. :o
What is it that you are saying that I admit to not being? "logical, reasonable and scientific" Well, I see none of the above in your posts Wilb. just insults , quotes and just always angry. Yeah, thats reasonable, logical and scientific. ??? ;)
MaGs
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.i'll ask you again... even though i know you will respond with some asinine logical fallacy:
exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to falsify all the other gods humanity has created?and exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to validate your godfairy other than declaring it to be so by personal fiat?i see none of the above in ANY of your responses... just insults, non sequiturs, asinine ad hoc rationalizations and always angry. ::)
as an aside, it's hilarious that you jump all over rosemarie ainslie for not presenting any of her methods and yet when asked to present your methods of validating your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend, you do the very same thing you accuse her of... how typically xian of you, you pretentious, sanctimonious hypocrite.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 08:54:30 PM
as an aside, it's hilarious that you jump all over rosemarie ainslie for not presenting any of her methods and yet when asked to present your methods of validating your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend, you do the very same thing you accuse her of... how typically xian of you, you pretentious, sanctimonious hypocrite.
Hypocrite? Ok.... ;)
As for Rose, all that is written in stone. You were there, beating on TK quite a bit over there 'with me'. ;) In stone. So dont twist the story. I defended her like no one has, in stone. I took a little interest in what Tk was working on and she apparently took that as bad blood and she went off on me. In stone, Tk Tar Baby thread. ;)
Then she started insulting my inteligence and liing. I was a bit shocked. Over that week I 'saw' what TK, Poynt, and even MH have been arguing with her, that they were right.
It was she that had me stooped into believing in something that does not exist. Soo in stone. She is definitely 'disconnected' and in the 'fairy land' that you describe. Yet you dont hammer her about that, do you? ??? ;) Yet here, in this thread, you will have your vengeance on those that say they believe in God? ???
That must mean that 'you' believe that she has a "cop>17" device, that doesnt exist. :o
Hypocrite calling the hypocrite black? ??? ??? In stone. ;D ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 10:00:16 PM
Hypocrite? Ok.... ;)
As for Rose, all that is written in stone. You were there, beating on TK quite a bit over there 'with me'. ;) In stone. So dont twist the story. I defended her like no one has, in stone. I took a little interest in what Tk was working on and she apparently took that as bad blood and she went off on me. In stone, Tk Tar Baby thread. ;)
Then she started insulting my inteligence and liing. I was a bit shocked. Over that week I 'saw' what TK, Poynt, and even MH have been arguing with her, that they were right.
It was she that had me stooped into believing in something that does not exist. Soo in stone. She is definitely 'disconnected' and in the 'fairy land' that you describe. Yet you dont hammer her about that, do you? ??? ;) Yet here, in this thread, you will have your vengeance on those that say they believe in God? ???
That must mean that 'you' believe that she has a "cop>17" device, that doesnt exist. :o
Hypocrite calling the hypocrite black? ??? ??? In stone. ;D ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
more of your logical fallacies? the only point you bother to address is the 'aside'? jesus fucking christ you are so easy to manipulate... and SO predictable... ::) LMFAO!
YOU PATHETIC, PRETENTIOUS, SANCTIMONIOUS HYPOCRITE!
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.i'll ask you again... even though i know you will respond with ANOTHER asinine logical fallacy:
exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to falsify all the other gods humanity has created?
and exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to validate your godfairy other than declaring it to be so by personal fiat?i see none of the above in ANY of your responses... just insults, non sequiturs, asinine ad hoc rationalizations and always angry. ::)
lol You are very similar to Obama, just keep on saying the same things you said 4 years ago. Or your a bot. ;)
I imagine tabs at the bottom of your screen, a bunch of Word docs with quotes to re-post, again and again. Like a pro. ;) :o
God Bless you Wilby. And I DO mean that. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 10:15:56 PM
lol You are very similar to Obama, just keep on saying the same things you said 4 years ago. Or your a bot. ;)
I imagine tabs at the bottom of your screen, a bunch of Word docs with quotes to re-post, again and again. Like a pro. ;) :o
God Bless you Wilby. And I DO mean that. ;)
Mags
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.i'll ask you again... even though i know you will respond with ANOTHER asinine logical fallacy:
exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to falsify all the other gods humanity has created?
and exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to validate your godfairy other than declaring it to be so by personal fiat?i see none of the above in ANY of your responses... just insults, non sequiturs, asinine ad hoc rationalizations and always angry. ::)
xians... you do understand that my god, the flying spaghetti monster is your god. christianity is a religion that does not like the fact that the FSM is in complete authority, so they just deny everything and then say there is no proof of the existence of the FSM. they just put their fingers in their ears and say, "lalalalalalala, I don't hear you!" by doing this, they think they will not be subject to the Sauce of the FSM, and escape the FSM's wrath on the day of judgment. those who do not admit to and repent the original spoon will suffer eternally... to sum things up, christianity is escapism. if you want to continue to be ignorant and bring condemnation on yourself, go right ahead. but, do not hinder those who would otherwise believe unto salvation. repent you spooners... walk the plank and save your filthy souls!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 10:06:00 PM
YOU PATHETIC, PRETENTIOUS, SANCTIMONIOUS HYPOCRITE!
Hey! You forgot 'IDIOT" ;) ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
Hey! You forgot 'IDIOT" ;) ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
it's a given... ::)
hey!you forgot to present exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to falsify all the other gods humanity has created...
and you forgot to present exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to validate your godfairy other than declaring it to be so by personal fiat...
i see none of the above in ANY of your responses... just insults, non sequiturs, asinine ad hoc rationalizations and always angry. ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 06:42:14 PM
understanding religious delusion
let's imagine that i tell you the following story:
there is a man who lives at the north pole.
he lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
during the year, he and the elves build toys.
then, on christmas eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
he puts the sack in his sleigh.
he hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
he then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
he gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
he leaves toys for the children of the household.
he climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
he does this all around the world in one night.
then he flies back to the north pole to repeat the cycle next year.
Most of the things said in holy books are metaphors which are not to be taken literally. The story may have some indirect / hidden meaning in that.
Sceintific terminology has evolved recently and for the people belonging to 'non-scientific' period, facts would have been said in the form of stories.
Nostradomus in his century VI, quatrain 97 says :
At forty-five degrees the sky will burn,
Fire to approach the great new city:
In an instant a great scattered flame will leap up,
When one will want to demand proof of the Normans
Anyone reading this quatrine would say that Nostradomus is an idiot because sky is not a material thing to burn. But this became true when terrosists attacked WTC. Nostradomus has referred tall buildings as sky and New York as New City.
It is the responsibilty of great thinkers to find out the actual scientific facts hidden in the holy books in the form of stories / metaphors.
Quote from: Newton II on October 04, 2012, 10:50:02 PM
Most of the things said in holy books are metaphors which are not to be taken literally. The story may have some indirect / hidden meaning in that.
Sceintific terminology has evolved recently and for the people belonging to 'non-scientific' period, facts would have been said in the form of stories.
Nostradomus in his century IV, quatrain 97 says :
At forty-five degrees the sky will burn,
Fire to approach the great new city:
In an instant a great scattered flame will leap up,
When one will want to demand proof of the Normans
Anyone reading this quatrine would say that Nostradomus is an idiot because sky is not a material thing to burn. But this became true when terrosists attacked WTC. Nostradomus has referred tall buildings as sky and New York as New City.
It is the responsibilty of great thinkers to find out the actual scientific facts hidden in the holy books in the form of stories / metaphors.
::) if it involves a deity... then, by definition, it is outside of the laws of physics, which takes it out of the realm of science.
now i'll ask you again... even though i know you will respond with ANOTHER asinine logical fallacy:
exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to falsify all the other gods humanity has created?
and exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to validate your godfairy other than declaring it to be so by personal fiat?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 11:05:07 PM
::)
now i'll ask you again... even though i know you will respond with ANOTHER asinine logical fallacy:
exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to falsify all the other gods humanity has created?
and exactly WHAT method(s) have you used to validate your godfairy other than declaring it to be so by personal fiat?
Science has taught me 'seeing is believing'. I have seen ghost (spirit) while working in a project in a remote village in the presence of my colleagues and other workers. Had I seen it alone, I would have assumed that I have gone mad seeing imaginary things. Since all the people present there also saw it and confirmed it, I had to accept it because everyone cannot go mad at once. Before that I was also a non-believer - atheist. When ghosts are there, God also should be there hence I believe in God also.
If you have not seen ghosts, don't believe unless you see one.
I cannot bring a ghost infront of you because ghosts are not under my control.
I accept my defeat.
Thanks.
Quote from: Newton II on October 04, 2012, 11:45:25 PM
Science has taught me 'seeing is believing'. I have seen ghost (spirit) while working in a project in a remote village in the presence of my colleagues and other workers. Had I seen it alone, I would have assumed that I have gone mad seeing imaginary things. Since all the people present there also saw it and confirmed it, I had to accept it because everyone cannot go mad at once. Before that I was also a non-believer - atheist. When ghosts are there, God also should be there hence I believe in God also.
If you have not seen ghosts, don't believe unless you see one.
I cannot bring a ghost infront of you because ghosts are not under my control.
I accept my defeat.
show me a ghost, i don't believe in any of that crap. ghost have nothing to with a god anyhow. think dimensional.
Thanks.
SCIENCE ALWAYS WANT YOU FALSIFY WHAT YOU DON'T SEE BUT FAITH FALSIFY SCIENCE ;D
AM I GOING TO REPEAT IT AGAIN WILBY WHAT FAITH IS! >:( :o
WHAT KIND OF KIND ARE YOU! YOU ! YOU!!! >:( JOKE ;D
OK ! I'LL EXPECT THE 'IDIOT' WORD COMMENT FROM WILBY IN THE NEXT POST. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH LOL ;D
gOT THAT! >:( YOU! YOU! . ;)
YOU BETTER WATCH OUT SANTA CLAUS IS COMING TO TOWN. ;D HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH LOL
LOVE YOU BROTHER ;)
OTITS L. NOICARO ;D
Quote from: Newton II on October 04, 2012, 11:45:25 PM
Science has taught me 'seeing is believing'.
No it didnt!
Your statement is nonfactual and disappointing. If you are going to make statements about science make sure you research your statement before you make it.
It has been proven many times over eye witnesses are very unreliable. Even when there is more than one. When it comes to claims of the supernatural, group hysteria is not uncommon. I like to call that group hysteria 'Religion'.
If you want to defer to science in your claim of seeing a ghost then you must expect that your statement would be treated with the greatest distrust, only empirical repeatable, quantifiable evidence would be accepted. So far there has not been one empirical test that proves the existence of ghosts.
Of course there are plenty who pray on people who believe in ghosts.
Wanna hear a really Big story .....,really Cute and fuzzy??
It starts with a Big BANG..............
And some Magic Soup and some Magic conditions in a really magical fantastical place.
We can keep going back and forth with these "Fairy Tales"........
One thing I do Know ...there are a few Men here that bust there Ass for the rest of us
and """share""" all their hard work ..no strings attached, they are really trying to make this world a better place and prove it by their actions .
You will know them by their works..........
Thx
Chet
The people that would keep us in the chains probably Love this kind of crap we do here
I'm gettin back to work ...on my Fantastical Fairytale OU thingy.......
Later.
There was a real Santa Claus. He would put badly needed clothes and food in a sleigh and bring it to various families in need in the beginning of winter in a scandanavian country. There was a real Santa Claus he was a mean prick that made his feudal slaves work his fields and factories. He would show up once a year and distribute needed supplies to keep his slaves alive until spring when they would start working his town for them. There was a real Santa Claus he was a VP of Goldman Sachs. He made anybody who payed their phone bill to donate gold to fill his sleigh full of cell phones. He then gave the cellphones and 80minutes free use to poor people. There was a real Santa Claus .....
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 05, 2012, 06:16:00 AM
No it didnt!
Your statement is nonfactual and disappointing. If you are going to make statements about science make sure you research your statement before you make it.
It has been proven many times over eye witnesses are very unreliable. Even when there is more than one. When it comes to claims of the supernatural, group hysteria is not uncommon. I like to call that group hysteria 'Religion'.
If you want to defer to science in your claim of seeing a ghost then you must expect that your statement would be treated with the greatest distrust, only empirical repeatable, quantifiable evidence would be accepted. So far there has not been one empirical test that proves the existence of ghosts.
Of course there are plenty who pray on people who believe in ghosts.
I am not that much of a layman not to differentiate between mass hysteria and reality. Hysteria cannot affect mentally strong people. It usually affects girls who are high on feelings hence week in mind. (not all)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria
Several Nobel prize winner scientists have attended séances and paranormal spots and taken photographs of spirits. You cannot say that they are all hysterical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_King_%28spirit%29
http://www.mcremo.com/paranormal.html
You better do some research work before making
hysterical comments
Quote from: Newton II on October 04, 2012, 11:45:25 PM
When ghosts are there, God also should be there hence I believe in God also.
First of all, possible realms beyond the observable physical world does not need a god to exist.To back up the probability of god by personal experiences of non physical events is non scientific.
But to engage in research into uncharted areas like possible interference observations caused by so called non physical phenomenon is fully scientifically correct.
It is on the other hand unscientific to limit scientific research to physical events. It contradicts the very idea of a scientific approach to repeated observations.
All you guys who react against anything with the slightest smell of non physical phenomena are not reacting scientically correct. Anything observable, physical or non physical, are worthy subjects to scientific study. To dismiss paranormal observations unconditionally as mental illusions are non scientific, and if you demand the methodology of measuring and observing physical events upon a realm that won't be detected by such equipment,
you are acting non-scientifically. The methods for studying and proving so called non physical events self evidently has to be subjected to quite different empirical procedures than the study of physical events.
Remember, mankind has still not found the Higgs particle, a fact which actually makes the world today still non physical in quality.But again, to you who are believers, a non physical reality does not need a god to exist. It just need a universe to be as immensely abundant as the very quality of INFINITY indicates.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on October 05, 2012, 06:33:37 PM
Remember, mankind has still not found the Higgs particle, a fact which actually makes the world today still non physical in quality.
while i agree with most of what you wrote, the above is asinine... the fact that the higgs boson, though predicted, remains undiscovered
does not make the world non physical. ::)
the only thing it does is weaken the THEORY of the standard model.
Quote from: Newton II on October 05, 2012, 09:21:39 AM\Several Nobel prize winner scientists have attended séances and paranormal spots and taken photographs of spirits. You cannot say that they are all hysterical.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_King_%28spirit%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katie_King_%28spirit%29)
http://www.mcremo.com/paranormal.html (http://www.mcremo.com/paranormal.html)
You better do some research work before making hysterical comments
In Wikipedia there is also "paranormal" enter. Looks like "paranormal" is something potentially "normal", only just UNKNOWN; thus it's not necessarily prove for god existence. Some religious texts say that some even good deeds may come from evil, not from god (anyway, I can consider a form of a god's existence but certainly I don't consider an existence of an evil separated from that god; in fact, the Bible also doesn't read it like that though I consider the Bible like any other book written by any human - meaning - son / daughter of God).
RE:
"You shall know them by their Works"
I appologize to those that "WorK' ,share and help others here that are not "Faithers".
It was not my intent to insult .
I noticed that a certain person in particular ,with very "independent" beliefs
has been Teaching in a very patient and Selfless manner.
This skill of selfless Teaching will become very important in the near future.
And once again my Appologies.
Thx
Chet
The Science of Mind
by Ernest Shurtleff Holmes
[1926]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/som/index.htm
My answers in bold!
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 04, 2012, 02:44:15 PM
This raises more questions than it answers. God is the creator of all things and is all knowing. Therefore god created Lucifer with the knowledge of what he would do and what effect it would have on man, but he went ahead and created it anyway. God is responsible for all things, and nothing happens without his knowing, so, by creating Lucifer and allowing him to exist, with the full knowledge of what would happen, he created the sin. Why did he do this?
Ahh, a wonderfully thought out question! First, let me correct a few things you mention. God KNOWS all things, but is not responsible for all things. This too is a misnomer. Let me give you a few examples. First you must understand about God's will, and that His will, (His purpose and desire) is NOT always accomplished to date, but their is a new world coming in which His will shall always come to pass. Lucifer was created for the purpose (purpose is God's will) of leading the worship of Heaven. He was a Cherub, with instruments built into his very body, beautiful and holy. But sin was first found in Lucifer when the seed of pride took root and grew, and he said "I Will" six times to God. "I will" moves you from God's purpose for your life to that of your own, and it is pride which is sin. Now, you can argue that God knew that was going to happen, but remember, God does not want robots, but allows free will for His creation. Because God is Holy and Just, this is the only condition in which any creation could be created. Satan (New name of Lucifer, meaning "Deceiver") made his choice. We must now make ours. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord! "Who are thou oh clay, to say to the potter, why have you made me such and such? Do you not know that the Potter has power over the clay to make it as he sees fit?" "Do you not know that in every great house there are vessels made unto honor and some vessels made unto dishonor? Be sure that you are a vessel of honor, to bring glory to he who created thee." One more example, is that it is "God's will that none should perish, but that all men should be saved." God's purpose and desire is for man NOT to perish! But will some perish from doubt and unbelief? Why yes, of course. But is that God's will, desire and purpose for them? Absolutely Not! So then why doesn't God intervene to prevent them from perishing? He has, in sending His Son, so that whosover would call upon His name, the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, would not perish, but have eternal life. God will not MAKE them believe, for it must be faith from their heart. Free will, freedom of choice once again. This is why he does not just have an angel lift an unbeliever into the air to the height of say 10,000 feet and say, "repent, believe or be dropped!" LOL This would hardly be faith. That kind of relationship would be extrensic and not intrensic by faith, as the Lord desires.
I have also just learned that sins are apparently passed on from parents to innocent children. Is this sort of like North Korea, where three generations are imprisoned (one's children and parents), for a political transgression. Actually, it is worse than North Korea. There it only goes to three generations. With god, in his infinite wisdom, apparently everyone is guilty.
This too is another outstanding question! In the Old Testament, the sins of the Father were passed to the second and to the third generation. Again this was a statement or a condition of fact, not a Judgement from God. This passing of sins, generationaly, or a generational curse, again is a consequence (to every action there is an equal or opposite reaction). Allow me to once again give you an example of this. A father is abusive physically to his children. Because of unforgiveness in their hearts, they grow up to become abusive to their own children. A parent(s) are alcoholics, and their children grow up to become and mimic the very thing that they hated in their parents. This too is a result and consequence of that "sin nature" at work in us. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ who has freed us from the slavery of sin and has loosed those chains from us. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, by the power and anointing of His Holy Spirit, those generational curses are broken! For this purpose was the Son of God manifest, to destroy the works of the devil!
Also, I am curious about this mercy. Obviously, since god controls all things, he controls hell, where there is eternal torment for those guilty of the heinous sin of refusing to believe in him on bad evidence, and apparently this sin is worthy of eternal torture. Not a year, not 100 years, not 1000 years, but eternal. This is quite possibly the worst thing that could possibly happen, and god allows this to happen for seemingly minor infractions. Tell me again about his eternal mercy, I am confused on that part. If he did not want anyone to perish, he could simply allow everyone to heaven. Why not? Why hold this grudge? What happened to infinitely merciful? If one is infinitely merciful, as I understand god to be, should he not forgive people the simple mistake of being born in the wrong hemisphere and therefore believing in the wrong deity.
A third well thought question from the heart, to be commended! Hell as I mention prior posts, was created for the Devil (Lucifer, Satan) and for his minions. They are not yet there, nor do they "rule Hell" as the rock bands and Hollywood would have the uninformed to think. Hell is first and foremost a place "void" of God. God and Sin do not mix. God is Light and in him is no shadow of turning. Can one mix bright light and darkness? Can both occupy the same space at the same moment of time? For where there is darkness, and light comes forth, the darkness flees. God in His Holiness is the brightest of lights, and sin, (not something DONE! But a condition of our heart we are born with and into. Like a blood disease.) is the blackest of night. God is a God of Love but also a God of Justice. Sin was found in the heart FIRST of Satan and his followers. When man, through Adam sinned, all men born through Adam were born sinners. This condition of our blood could not be changed. No matter how "good" or "religious" a man was, this sin nature borne of our heart was always there. In the old Testament the sacrifice of bulls and goats, simply "covered over" until the Lord himself would come as the Lamb of God, who Himself taketh away the sins of man. Our sin IS forgiven. He paid a debt He did not owe. I owed a debt I could not pay! But through faith in the Holy name of Jesus the Christ (Messiah) the saviour of the world, I have been redeemed, ransomed. To put it another way, Satan, the god of this world (small g) for the time being, is our "natural father". We were born into sin and needed our souls ransomed, redeemed. This then allows us to be transformed, passing from death unto life. I was blind but now I see. I was dead but now I live! "Truly, truly I say unto you, that unless a man be born-again, he shall in now wise enter into the Kingdom of God."
And what is with this blood sacrifice business? If this was practiced in our society, we would be abhorred by it. And how exactly does one atone for one's crime by slaughtering an innocent goat, or sheep or faithful dog? What did the animal do? How is this justice? Why was god so thirsty for blood that apparently anyone's blood would do? Why accept the blood of an innocent animal as atonement for the crime by a knowing and reasoning human evildoer? Can you imagine what that goat or sheep or poor puppy is thinking as it is about to be killed (probably thinking "what did I do?") And why wait for Jesus's coming to change these bloodthirsty rules. If blood sacrifice was wrong then, does that mean god was wrong and changed his mind. And why would god change his mind? Is he not infinitely wise, so should he not always make the correct decision the first time?
This hopefully was answered above.
Also, finally, how do you even know any of this is true. Please do not tell me the Bible, as I can show you some books about Poseidon and Zeus.
Ahh, for this question is the crux of the matter.... "How do I know this is true?" Well, it is NOT because I one day picked up a book and started reading. No, you must understand, that I have PERSONALLY met the author of the Bible, the LIVING Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. He showed me His POWER, and His power is the power to save me, to change me, to set me free. That very first time I was introduced to my Lord, He filled my soul with light, in a moment's time. He unburdened me of my lifetime of sin and removed it as far from me as the east is from the west. It was if a thousand pounds had been lifted off of my shoulders, and I had not even known they were there! Call upon the name of the Lord Jesus, and he will show himself real on your behalf. Then, as I looked back before that day, I could see His gentle fingerprints upon my life, ever guiding me to that place of faith. Open your heart to Him! "The Kingdom of God is not in word, but in Power!" The power of God to change lives accross this globe. "Oh taste of the Lord and see that he is good!"
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 05, 2012, 07:03:23 PM
while i agree with most of what you wrote, the above is asinine... the fact that the higgs boson, though predicted, remains undiscovered does not make the world non physical. ::)
the only thing it does is weaken the THEORY of the standard model.
WilbyInebriated,
You are absolutely correct, but my comment was deliberately asinine, since it was reffering to the asinine qualities of the Standard Model.
Seen from the perspective of The Standard Model, without the Higgs boson, the universe would have no physical matter, since without a Higgs field there would not be any electroweak symmetry breaking (EWSB) making particles gain its mass properties.
But since the quantum theory is a purely mathematically based physics theory still lacking any hardcore proof whatever, and still nevertheless is higly regarded almost as high as a confirmed fact in the scientific community, I feel obliged joke about these guys who still lack the very basic fundament for their theory.
That's why I say that as long as we cannot find the absolutely hypothetical fundamental particle of the Higgs field, all known particles lack mass and without physical properties it makes our universe non physical.
The whole 50 year old developmental procedure behind the creation of todays Standard Model lacks correct scientific procedure.
You don't start with an empty theory and thereafter starts looking for evidence confirming your idea. You have to start with a discovery like an unexplained observation and go the other way around. Otherwise you are like the Faithers who start with a belief (theory) and thereafter tries to fit the observations around them into their model.
Maybe I should have been clearer and ended my sentence with a ;D
Gwandau
Gwandau
Just for the record ,We are all "Faithers"......... to the last man. [and a girl or two??]
END OF STORY !!
>.< [thats a period in there]
Its just your particular "Flavor" that is open to discussion.
Until a hard tangible Asset is manifest in some way [undeniable proof].
But that should be profoundly obvious......
Thx
Chet
PS
@ Bruce
I also appreciate you taking the time to explain these things from your perspective [eatins questions],some of those questions have disturbed me for quite some time.
Thank you
Chet
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 06, 2012, 02:50:16 PM
My answers in bold!
sadistic crap is not legitimized by florid prose... ::)
and thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Quote from: ramset on October 06, 2012, 04:17:25 PM
Gwandau
Just for the record ,We are all "Faithers"......... to the last man. [and a girl or two??]
END OF STORY !!
>.< [thats a period in there]
just for the record... we are all atheists. i just have 'faith' in one less godfairy than you do. when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours.
END OF STORY !!
>.<
Quote from: ramset on October 06, 2012, 10:09:03 AM
It was not my intent to insult .
yes it was... and your apology is not accepted. your sins are held bound.
You stand on Weak ground Sir...........
I am not so sure you can Quantify that particular transgression as a Sin.
Twas but a mere mention.....an observation on my part...Not even sure it would Qualify as "idle talk"?[speak]
Yes ..lacking the full resolve on my part to investigate the motives of others ,Twas a statement made in a moment of Devine missguided zeal........[which I regret for "gentlemenly" reasons [sans apology]]
You have not fully Shown intent [to out right Sin]
And since..... If I were to be percieved as an idiot or stupid ....said condition would absolve me of all Sin ""in context""[chapter 7 ,page 23 ,2nd paragraph .]
Nope ,holding a sin under such conditions "Bound"!!
not even technically accurate.
you have backed yourself into a corner !!
A rookie mistake..............
Come back when you have your "game on".........
Spankyou very much!!
Chet
Ps
and of course as usual I hope I made lots of spelling mistakes [not a sin either!! [gotta double check that one]""in context""]
Quote from: ramset on October 06, 2012, 07:46:59 PM
You stand on Weak ground Sir...........
oh the irony... ::)
and even more so, your blind faith is an ironic gift to return to your creator of human intelligence.
tu stultus es!
Sir You have wondered onto the Suggy soil of assumption,such frivolities have no Merit here,
Here my Dear Sir we deal in Facts not Fuzzy.[as per your rules]
Cold hard facts...........
And until you can provide some "evidence" of egregious missconduct on my part worthy Of "bound sin" Status .
I deem you an "Unworthy Pontificating PUTZ".[ as outlined in 3rd reprint, 2nd edition article 6 .[fine print]."in Context""]
Good day U. P.P.
And Good night.........
Chet
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 06, 2012, 02:50:16 PM
My answers in bold!
Sorry. Do you guys really think that a long novel is more convincing than a short one, only because it is just LONG? This story is ABSOLUTELY UNCONVINCING! It's deceiving.
God created EVERYTHING!! Well, you prove here that God not everything created: God did not create: Satan, deception, bad will; you try to convince they created themselves.
To sin, a temptation must be present first. When God created Cherub, the notion of temptation was unknown. So, how they got to that knowledge? Of cause, God told them that long before!! Because God is supreme HYPOCRITE!! - That comes off your story.
Tell me, who created your answer? It's not from the only holy book - the Bible. So, it's not God's answer. Of course, it's saint Augustine's - another hypocrite sinner, the Supreme Hypocrite follower, as well as some other holy hypocrites.
Of course, there is a reason that followers create those stories: within their hypocrisy they are convinced that this is one of the best way for their HEAVENLY reward when they find a way to defend God's fame.
I conclude, that to save humanity from hell, the best thing is not to make them aware of God (and Satan): it would be an outrage to punish the unaware ones!
Of course, the only truth is this: people, like any other creature don't need any bible (in fact, the Bible sees people as machines without brain); like any other creature, people possess DNA: not even a word describes it there: looks like the Bible's God is unaware of DNA. Such important thing should be mentioned, right? Do Satan, God, angels possess DNA?
Quote from: ramset on October 06, 2012, 09:58:50 PM
Sir You have wondered onto the Suggy soil of assumption,such frivolities have no Merit here,
Here my Dear Sir we deal in Facts not Fuzzy.[as per your rules]
Cold hard facts...........
And until you can provide some "evidence" of egregious missconduct on my part worthy Of "bound sin" Status .
I deem you an "Unworthy Pontificating PUTZ".[ as outlined in 3rd reprint, 2nd edition article 6 .[fine print]."in Context""]
Good day U. P.P.
And Good night.........
Chet
the cold hard facts are that you have an imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend that you can't substantiate... ::)
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave.
and again chetito, tu stultus es!
satan i rebuke thee !!
Another flawed story is that of the Paradise.
People were enormously happy while in there. They had only one tiny - very, very, very tiny temptation, which they would probably never find if the Supreme Hypocrite wouldn't tell them about. And since God told them about the tree, the tiny temptation grew and grew and grew… Here we must tell, that today, if somebody has an obsession which cannot be fulfilled, he/she knows that eventually at the moment of their death the obsession will stop. Our first parents did not have such an option, because the supreme hypocrite did not give them such a chance. So, this tiny ban became their ENDLESS obsession; thus, the Paradise became their hell. How do I know that? Coz I'm a human like them and the Bible considers we can understand that story just coz we have human emotions, like them.
Of course, not just this "Paradise" story but the whole Bible I consider NOT as just ANOTHER story: this is the VERY FIRST book of fairy tales interlaced with some true stories. I only want to awake its followers for creative thinking.
Q
I've heard it said the apple deal was just a metaphor for another much more involved Temptation.
Carnal in nature.
The consequences that followed seemed to line up with an offence of this Nature ?
Perhaps , at the time I was told this, I grabbed hold of it ....This seemed to make sence to me , as opposed to "the apple story"
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on October 07, 2012, 07:56:21 AM
I've heard it said the apple deal was just a metaphor for another much more involved Temptation.
Carnal in nature.
what chapter and verse?
Thank you for the rebuke W
Once again I crossed the line..........I don't have any hard Data in any form to corroborate that version ,just Tacit reference and inuendo's.
Chet
PS
You are merciless......
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 06, 2012, 06:00:37 PM
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
WilbyInebriated,
that was absolutely brilliant! Unfortunately the message won't pass through their retoric filters, since reason and logic always are of secondary value to these guys. Religion is like an strongly addictive drug, it makes a miserable life and an unfair world endurable. But the price is just as high as the price of heavy drug addiction, the way out to freedom is almost impossible.
But here our roads probably parts, since I have personal experiences of realities beyond the physical world. But those experiences never made me fall in to the trap of organized prefabricated religion. It just made me aware that universe consists of a multilayer of adjacent realities, each with their own system of dynamic laws. And it definitely made me aware of the fallacy of Christianity as well as any other organized religion.
But having a novel personal experience does not give you the right to impose it upon others as being the one and only thruth, like the faithers do. Imposing ones ideas unconditionally upon others is immoral and reflects a lack of both decent humbleness and sanity.
The probability of a god in the traditional sense: ZERO The probability of a non favouring INTENT behind the dynamics of universe: 50/50 The probability of mankind being the most stupid of all species in relation to brain volume: Undisputed Like Einstein said: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Gwandau
Food for thought, O Wise Ones:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25)
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: Gwandau on October 07, 2012, 05:52:50 PM
WilbyInebriated,
that was absolutely brilliant! Unfortunately the message won't pass through their retoric filters, since reason and logic always are of secondary value to these guys. Religion is like a drug, it makes a miserable life and an unfair world endurable.
But here our roads probably parts, since I have personal experiences of realities beyond the physical world. But those experiences never made me fall in to the trap of organized prefabricated religion. It just made me aware that universe consists of a multilayer of adjacent realities, each with their own system of dynamic laws. And it definitely made me aware of the fallacy of Christianity as well as any other organized religion.
The probability of a god in the traditional sense: ZERO
The probability of a non favouring INTENT behind the dynamics of universe: 50/50
The probability of mankind being the most stupid of all species in relation to brain volume: Undisputed
Like Einstein said: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Gwandau
Einstien
“The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends,†Einstein wrote in German in a 1954 letter that will be auctioned on eBay later this month. "No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.â€
How do we choose of what this man says and consider it truth or reality? ;]
Our President Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, shall we follow his words, Hope, Change, Forward?
Gwandau says...
"But here our roads probably parts, since I have personal experiences of realities beyond the physical world."
Well these are the only proofs we have to offer. Our testimony is the best we can do. And the way it is passed on to the next person is that they have to have a little belief 'enough' to be willing and try. Then they will come to see why Gwandau says what he says, and Ramset says what he says. They believed enough to try, they have experienced and felt it. As have I. ;]
If God had made it all, so that he were physically provable, and especially 'visible', while still being all knowing and omnipotent, and everywhere at the same time, this would be a different place, and more interestingly, for a different purpose than proposed in the Bible.
The times we are in today are described well in the Bible, and if you know it well, you know whats coming 'soon'. Not the same "soon" used in the past generations, as that "soon" meant that the end of your individual life here on Earth is coming soon, so it is best to not waste time, because there is no telling if that end is today or tomorrow... ;]
These days you can be arrested for having some people over for Bible study. Why is that? Is it the Wilby Agenda? There are many like him and our Government seems to be following suit.
So with all the repression and suppression soon to be on the increase, I say it is a good thing that we can 'identify' what the Bible says of the end times. And it becomes clearer and clearer as time moves on. Now that these things are more easily identifiable, It should help people pay more attention than they have before. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus ;D
Quote
I've heard it said the apple deal was just a metaphor for another much more involved Temptation.
Carnal in nature.
snip....
According to the modern english versions of the bible, (ones that I can understand since I don't speak latin), the "apple" is actually meant to be "the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil"
So, by their actions, Adam and Eve were supposedly cursed and punished for aquiring the "knowledge" that good and evil exist.
Go figure.
I must say the "knowledge" part and the need to Punish ,always baffled me.
I might also add that Text that Bruce posted above also use to baffle Me,to the point where I just read it with absolutely No comprehension.
Reading it now ,after reading some of the things posted here [about beliefs]
Which I was honestly Clueless about
as well as the whole Knowledge Of Gods Secrets Etc........
So much of that just jumps off the page now.
As Mags says it is clearer that something is going on Now that was written long ago.
But thats Just Me !
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Magluvin on October 07, 2012, 07:01:24 PM
Well these are the only proofs we have to offer.
don't be coy or stupid... you know damn well those aren't 'proofs'. ::)
it's your xian agenga to promote the spread of ignorance...
Quote from: Magluvin on October 07, 2012, 07:01:24 PM
These days you can be arrested for having some people over for Bible study. Why is that? Is it the Wilby Agenda? There are many like him and our Government seems to be following suit.
that's not my agenda... in point of fact, if you kept your stupid, illogical unreasonable faith at home i wouldn't have to be serving you logic lessons in public. but... since you insist upon inflicting your stupidity and ignorance upon the public you get what we have here, which is the way you want it.
Quote from: ramset on October 07, 2012, 10:26:37 PM
I must say the "knowledge" part and the need to Punish ,always baffled me.
snip...
I was honestly Clueless about as well as the whole Knowledge Of Gods Secrets Etc........
snip...
Genesis makes no sense, because it is a highly (and badly) edited, cut down version of the Sumerian story of creation and the human lineage that followed it.
The sumerian version of creation, and human history therafter, up till the "great flood" and into contemporary sumerian times, was written nearly 4 thousand years before the judaists hacked it apart and incorporated it into the emerging new tanakh (hebrew bible).
Centuries later, christians decided to acknowledge their hebrew forbears by incorporating most of the tanack into the canonical works that christians were compiling, and which became known as the "old testament" and the "new testament". In line with their own viewpoint, genesis again, lost more of the original plot and meaning, because even the pre-edited hebrew version of the (Sumerian) creation story still hinted at more than one god. A loving, merciful, empathetic one, and an angry, vindictive, spiteful one.
That is totally unacceptable to monotheists like christians, hence the rewrite, which results in more mystery than enlightenment.
It's not just genesis that has been borrowed from the sumerians, but indeed, most of the "old testament" has its roots in ancient sumerian
culture. But, as they often say in TV documentaries - "all names and places have been changed to protect the innocent"
Cheers
From a modern scientific point of view, when comparing the cosmology models offered by different religions, I think it is worthy to note that it is actually the ancient religion of hinduism, that most resembles modern cosmological thinking.
In fact, the hindu views of the nature of matter (vibratory energy) and time, and their ideas of the great cycles of creation (oscillating branes), are breathtaking in their philosophical depth and breadth. Their view of the immenseness of the universe, having a relatively short lived presence in an endless sea of time, is a view modern science is beginning to come to terms with.
It is a testimony to the human ability to reason and think logically, that the hindus could form a view of the material universe through philosophical reasoning alone, millenia ago, with modern science now forming similar views based on empirical data derived from both observation of naturally occuring phenomena and experimentally produced phenomena.
Hinduism is however a modern age enigma, because its views on fate and destiny are intertwined in such a way as to promote the segregation of people based on birth alone, within the caste system. A system which I surely disdain for its lack of equity and natural justice, and which I hope modern India eventually manages to discard altogether.
I think atheist are the remnants of thomas, you take a look
http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.ca/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html (http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.ca/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html)
Message: It is better to believe though you didn't see it.
To see is to believe is NOT! the way of GOD! >:( Did you got it wilby!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
And therefore we conclude then that your way of falsification of finding the truth is useless,
and you have to admit that you cannot really see GOD in your way. as simple as that. ;)
cause God will really hide his self to you cause your way is not his way. Got that simple logic?.
got it bro? ;D
now if still you didn't got it then , I DON'T KNOW TO YOU ! >:( YOU! , YOU!
;D
Bruce, your quote bears repeating:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25)
Who could have said it better?
On the day of Intervention, fast approaching, who is able to stand? The thoughts of man are transparent to God....a fact of which He reminds us in mysterious ways. For instance, we think our selves clever and wise to be able to visit the depths of the sea. Where we discover creatures such as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoygy-8PTtU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoygy-8PTtU)
Only, by and large, to attribute such amazing engineering to blind, dumb, chance....All is 'transparent' to our Creator.
Yes indeed, the Words at Romans 1:18-25 were never truer than they are today.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 08, 2012, 05:49:21 AM
I think atheist are the remnants of thomas, you take a look
http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.ca/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html (http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.ca/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html)
Message: It is better to believe though you didn't see it.
To see is to believe is NOT! the way of GOD! >:( Did you got it wilby!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
And therefore we conclude then that your way of falsification of finding the truth is useless,
and you have to admit that you cannot really see GOD in your way. as simple as that. ;)
cause God will really hide his self to you cause your way is not his way. Got that simple logic?.
got it bro? ;D
now if still you didn't got it then , I DON'T KNOW TO YOU ! >:( YOU! , YOU!
;D
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend doesn't like the way i live... let him tell me, not you.
Quote from: TechStuf on October 08, 2012, 06:43:24 AM
Bruce, your quote bears repeating:
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25)
Who could have said it better?
On the day of Intervention, fast approaching, who is able to stand? The thoughts of man are transparent to God....a fact of which He reminds us in mysterious ways. For instance, we think our selves clever and wise to be able to visit the depths of the sea. Where we discover creatures such as this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoygy-8PTtU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoygy-8PTtU)
Only, by and large, to attribute such amazing engineering to blind, dumb, chance....All is 'transparent' to our Creator.
Yes indeed, the Words at Romans 1:18-25 were never truer than they are today.
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.fuck off with your asinine circular 'quoting the holey babble' logic... if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend doesn't like the way i live... let him tell me, not you.
Teets
Besides your UnChristlike Selfishness [holding out for the highest bidder On God's O.U. gift ]
You need to work on your Tolerance..........
"W" is as "W" does.
I like The Toad's observation on Hindu and other comments.
Just out here paying attention with an open heart and mind [as carefully as I can].
Gotta Go work on My Ou fairytale faither thingy........
Chet
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 07, 2012, 06:22:57 PM
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
bruce is a fucking moron... ::) man didn't change the glory of the uncorruptible gawd into an image like man... gawd did it when he impregnated that whore mary and became jesus
the man born of
FLESH AND BLOOD.
thanks bruce, for
another example of how illogical and asinine your fairytale is... ::)
Quote from: ramset on October 08, 2012, 07:50:55 AM
Teets
Besides your UnChristlike Selfishness [holding out for the highest bidder On God's O.U. gift ]
You need to work on your Tolerance..........
"W" is as "W" does.
I like The Toad's observation on Hindu and other comments.
Just out here paying attention with an open heart and mind [as carefully as I can].
Gotta Go work on My Ou fairytale faither thingy........
Chet
hey satan... you need to work on not being such a fucking pretentious, sanctimonious hypocrite... what does your stupid fucking fairytale book say about judging others? does it say you are to do it or does it say it is only for your gawd to do?
get thee back satan! i rebuke thee again!
Quote from: hoptoad on October 08, 2012, 05:30:12 AM
From a modern scientific point of view, when comparing the cosmology models offered by different religions, I think it is worthy to note that it is actually the ancient religion of hinduism, that most resembles modern cosmological thinking.
In fact, the hindu views of the nature of matter (vibratory energy) and time, and their ideas of the great cycles of creation (oscillating branes), are breathtaking in their philosophical depth and breadth. Their view of the immenseness of the universe, having a relatively short lived presence in an endless sea of time, is a view modern science is beginning to come to terms with.
One thing that fascinated me in Hinduism is meditation which they call as 'Dhyana'. For doing 'dhyana' you have to stop thinking completely and concentrate on any one god or 'mantra' or a single word 'om'. But this I think is the toughest job to do. I tried it but found it almost impossible to stop thinking. This bothered me very much because, mind is part of our body and we are masters of our own mind still we cannot take control of our mind and stop thinking.
Later I studied few books on Hinduism from which I learnt that a person who stops thinking completely for hours together will enter a stage called 'samadhi'. In that state his spirit merges with universal spirit, he realises god and feels that he is just a very small part of universal spirit. But to acheive this you have to take hundreds of births on this earth. If you start meditating in this birth, you may succeed in stopping thinking completely after taking hundreds of births!!
Has anybody, any time tried to stop thinhking completely?
Can anybody in this forum stop thinking completely atleast for 10 minutes?
Q
You mean Like
"be Still"?
We have a man that comes to our facility to help folks get their minds right.
He has a lot of knowledge on many different Faiths.
This simple thing you ask {10 minutes] is almost impossible .......
He asks folks just to count in there mind slowly ,just the number NOTHING else ....,and when another thought replaces the number in your mind ,you have to start over.
I get to two..............
But thats just me!
Oh and there is breathing involved too , it calms you down!
"W" Take a breath...........
Or you could end up Messin up Your DNA
Epigenetics
http://sweetwaterhrv.com/blog/heart-rate-variability/what-swedish-chickens-tell-us-about-dna/ (http://sweetwaterhrv.com/blog/heart-rate-variability/what-swedish-chickens-tell-us-about-dna/)
Later
Chet
Oh This is so Good............
A tangible Hard "Asset" ,A revelation ...as it were.........
Remember How Eatin asked Bruce about "the sins of the father" thing?
being passed along to the Second and third generation !
Eatin Figures "what the Heck" absolute Nonsence !!Nothing physical happens.
and Bruce replyed with what I have observed in working with abused or abusive people , learned behavior is Taught to the next generation By Default.
They don't know any better........
HOWEVER this..... This is very Od , It turns out High stress anxiety as well as other environmental issues WILL alter the next generations DNA. immediately ,An Old Bible verse from the Dark ages [so to speak ]
How'd they know??
I suppose it depends on their Coping skills?..........[I assume]
Here you go
http://sweetwaterhrv.com/blog/heart-rate-variability/what-swedish-chickens-tell-us-about-dna/ (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F12716%2Fprobality-of-god%2Fmsg339354%2F%23new&v=1&libid=1349716974584&out=http%3A%2F%2Fsweetwaterhrv.com%2Fblog%2Fheart-rate-variability%2Fwhat-swedish-chickens-tell-us-about-dna%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F&title=Probality%20of%20God&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fsweetwaterhrv.com%2Fblog%2Fheart-rate-variability%2Fwhat-swedish-chickens-tell-us-about-dna%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13497170130471)
Not that big a leap for an open unbiased mind to take.......
Just paying attention!!
Thx
Chet
Ps
I wonder if the converse is true ? would a person who felt very good with an
"I know everything is going to be allright" attitude on life,would that pass along a tangible /observable Change in their DNA [a blessing Gene].?
DNA I'm really Liking this stuff ,fast quick changes..............WOW
who woulda Thunk? who knows what can happen when things start to get triggered?
Hows that Go?
All things are possible?
It is interesting, that the more post made, explaining and quoting the Holy Word of God, the more Harsh, Loud, Hateful, Ugly, Dark and wrathful some of the responses are. Has any of our readers taken notice of this?
"Out of the abundance of your heart the mouth speaks." Let me break it down into plain English for the "wise" amongst us... Whatevery your HEART is FULL OF, is what is going to come out OF YOUR MOUTH, (visa vi...written, in this case...)
I wonder if someone has demonic powers in operation in their life, and don't know it? I sure did before I came to Christ.
P.s. You can't Change your life. That's what dead men's religion tries to do. You can only "surrender" your life, to Him who loves you and gave Himself for you. And He will in turn give you a NEW life! Ahhh.... That IS the proof!
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: hoptoad on October 08, 2012, 03:51:07 AM
Genesis makes no sense, because it is a highly (and badly) edited, cut down version of the Sumerian story of creation and the human lineage that followed it.
The sumerian version of creation, and human history therafter, up till the "great flood" and into contemporary sumerian times, was written nearly 4 thousand years before the judaists hacked it apart and incorporated it into the emerging new tanakh (hebrew bible).
Centuries later, christians decided to acknowledge their hebrew forbears by incorporating most of the tanack into the canonical works that christians were compiling, and which became known as the "old testament" and the "new testament". In line with their own viewpoint, genesis again, lost more of the original plot and meaning, because even the pre-edited hebrew version of the (Sumerian) creation story still hinted at more than one god. A loving, merciful, empathetic one, and an angry, vindictive, spiteful one.
That is totally unacceptable to monotheists like christians, hence the rewrite, which results in more mystery than enlightenment.
It's not just genesis that has been borrowed from the sumerians, but indeed, most of the "old testament" has its roots in ancient sumerian culture.
But, as they often say in TV documentaries - "all names and places have been changed to protect the innocent"
Cheers
Hoptoad,
You have condensed the above facts elegantly and easily understood, and one would think that those fully verifiable facts should have a dire impact upon anyone reading it, but no, that's not the case, there wasn't even a comment about this elucidating description of the background behind most religions.
You see how easily the Faithers bypass undisputable evidence of the old testament bible texts being a mere ripoff from earlier non Christian stories of creation. They are irreversibly conditioned to believe that the Bible contains the words of their God, and we can try forever in our attempts to reach behind their preprogrammed rigidity with no other response than their meek smiles.
The unfortunate conditioning of these guys is buried so deep within their minds that it most certainly has its roots in the preverbal period of early childhood. No wonder such conditioning cannot be reached and de-programmed by verbal logic.
Gwandau
Quote from: Newton II on October 08, 2012, 08:27:10 AM
One thing that fascinated me in Hinduism is meditation which they call as 'Dhyana'. For doing 'dhyana' you have to stop thinking completely and concentrate on any one god or 'mantra' or a single word 'om'. But this I think is the toughest job to do. I tried it but found it almost impossible to stop thinking. This bothered me very much because, mind is part of our body and we are masters of our own mind still we cannot take control of our mind and stop thinking.
Later I studied few books on Hinduism from which I learnt that a person who stops thinking completely for hours together will enter a stage called 'samadhi'. In that state his spirit merges with universal spirit, he realises god and feels that he is just a very small part of universal spirit. But to acheive this you have to take hundreds of births on this earth. If you start meditating in this birth, you may succeed in stopping thinking completely after taking hundreds of births!!
Has anybody, any time tried to stop thinhking completely?
Can anybody in this forum stop thinking completely atleast for 10 minutes?
Newton II,
It is all about being inside or outside you intellect. Consciousness is better off being outside the intellect, only using the intellect as a toolbox when needed. This is too all about conditioning from early childhood, and as far as I am concerned, the only feasable method to pop outside your intellect and getting acquainted with the state of mind without thought processes, is taking hallucinogenes with this intent in mind. Since taking hallucinogenes is both illegal and connected with certain dangers if executed wrongly, there is not many people who have had the opportunity to experience this state of mind.
And it is absolutely neccessary to have a repeated experince of being outside the control of the intellect to even begin understand how to not think. The nature of our thought processes are quite different from what most of us believe. It is not really we who create our thoughts, they are created at a far deeper level than at the level of our ordinary consciousness.
Thoughts are actually originating non verbally and thereafter projected into the intellect where the non-verbal thought gets its verbal properties. You may have had the experience of knowing the whole sentence before thinking it, and also many times knowing exactly what to say without being able to find the words.
Yes Newton II, I only think when I need to. When experiencing reality, our thoughts just are obstacles creating filter projections that diminishes the direct experience of reality. And you don't have to be an enlightened Buddha to reach this state of mind, you just have to learn how to be here and now.
There is actually a legal way to enter this domain of knowledge, but it is quite ardous and will take quite some time to master:
When being alone, sitting in your sofa at home, try just to sit there and listen to your thoughts. Let them come and go, without interfering. This is the real trick, not to interfere. We are so conditioned to react and either trying to get hold of or avoiding the thoughts surfacing in our minds.
Treat your thoughts like if you were sitting in your home and a bird happened to fly inside. What is the best method to get the bird back outside? To start running around after it, trying to catch the bird? Of course not. The best way is to open all windows and just sit there waiting for the bird to find its way out of the room. Exactly this method is the best way to treat your thougths, and one day you will actually be able to just sit there for long periods free of thoughts. And I tell you, it is abolutely amazing how much richer ones experience of reality becomes when being totally here and now.
Gwandau
Quote from: hoptoad on October 07, 2012, 09:54:02 PM
According to the modern english versions of the bible, (ones that I can understand since I don't speak latin), the "apple" is actually meant to be "the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil"
So, by their actions, Adam and Eve were supposedly cursed and punished for aquiring the "knowledge" that good and evil exist.
Go figure.
Adam and Eve were not punished, they were SCREWED! Or rather: the Humanity was screwed with this fairy story. This story from the real beginning to its real end clearly shows a swindle of God-Evil or Evil-God or however can it be named, just for its pure pleasure of making fun from the Humanity.
The idea of creating the Bible was very clever at those ancient times while religions were governing or at least had big influence. Today it is not so clever: the INFALLIBLE God, seeing that he made some ERRORS while creating Humans, gave them the Bible. ;) ;D
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 08, 2012, 07:15:30 AM
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend doesn't like the way i live... let him tell me, not you.
What?!!!!! let him tell you?. Thomas is already example, i'm just sharing the info to you.
That's an illogical reason again from you bud!.
AS i said again and again our way of finding is not his way! >:(
You really don't got it do you? >:( >:( >:(
Even you, you cannot present a logical and reasonable way to prove that there is no GOD cause there is no wayto that, cause that is not his way.
But FAITH CAN!, understood?! >:(
The real JESUS said FAITH! FAITH!! FAITH!!! >:( You Thomas!!!!!! >:(
Quote from: ramset on October 08, 2012, 07:50:55 AM
Teets
Besides your UnChristlike Selfishness [holding out for the highest bidder On God's O.U. gift ]
You need to work on your Tolerance..........
"W" is as "W" does.
I like The Toad's observation on Hindu and other comments.
Just out here paying attention with an open heart and mind [as carefully as I can].
Gotta Go work on My Ou fairytale faither thingy........
Chet
And your mind and heart is not! open to me!!! >:( You wilby! ;D
be careful if blind follow the same blind they are in danger. see => 8) 8)
;D
Quote from: Qwert on October 08, 2012, 08:03:10 PM
Adam and Eve were not punished, they were SCREWED! Or rather: the Humanity was screwed with this fairy story. This story from the real beginning to its real end clearly shows a swindle of God-Evil or Evil-God or however can it be named, just for its pure pleasure of making fun from the Humanity.
The idea of creating the Bible was very clever at those ancient times while religions were governing or at least had big influence. Today it is not so clever: the INFALLIBLE God, seeing that he made some ERRORS while creating Humans, gave them the Bible. ;) ;D
You have to know the real story first in the Bible before making some permanent message cause you might hurt GOD. :)
God loves humanity john 3:16 by giving his only begotten son JESUS.
They just didn't follow him correctly, and there the punishment comes. :)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 08, 2012, 05:49:21 AM
cause God will really hide his self to you cause your way is not his way. Got that simple logic?.
This simple logic is illogical: God created everything, also Wilby; long time before he created Wilby, God already knew EXACTLY all Wilby's future actions. He created him anyway. So, because God created him THIS WAY, not ANY OTHER WAY it was acceptable for God. You cannot say that "God created Wilby this way, because this way was NOT ACCEPTABLE"; such reasoning has absolutely no sense. So, you should blame God that created Wilby this way while having many other possibilities. Anyway, this way looks not acceptable FOR YOU. How do you know that this is or is not acceptable by God? Maybe God has his own plan that he acts just this way?
I guess, this story fits reasoning of my previous post; see reply #370.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 08, 2012, 08:32:36 PM
You have to know the real story first in the Bible before making some permanent message cause you might hurt GOD. :)
you're a fucking moron just like bruce, ramsatan and magudas iscariot... you're putting the cart before the horse you idiot. FIRST you need to present some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior creator friend... the book your imaginary godfairy wrote doesn't mean jack shit until you prove your imaginary godfairy is real.
get thee back tito/satan... i rebuke thee again!
"for gawd so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever would believe in him, would believe in anything..." Logic 3:16
first i'd like to thank you bruce allmighty, AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 08, 2012, 01:50:37 PM
It is interesting, that the more post made, explaining and quoting the Holy Word of God, the more Harsh, Loud, Hateful, Ugly, Dark and wrathful some of the responses are. Has any of our readers taken notice of this?
so not only are you a fucking moron... you're a fucking hypocrite as well. you have called us:
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner
and yet you have the arrogance to bitch, whine and cry when i do to you what your holey babble tells me to do to you... that is to say... i am doing unto you as you have done unto others. you self-righteous, pretentious, sanctimonious, little hypocritical bitch. fuck you... you prick.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 08, 2012, 01:50:37 PM
"Out of the abundance of your heart the mouth speaks." Let me break it down into plain English for the "wise" amongst us... Whatevery your HEART is FULL OF, is what is going to come out OF YOUR MOUTH, (visa vi...written, in this case...)
oh so that's why you babble insane imaginary bullshit... that's why you call us non faithers names. get thee back satan!
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 08, 2012, 01:50:37 PM
I wonder if someone has demonic powers in operation in their life, and don't know it? I sure did before I came to Christ.
yeah you do... you haven't even presented
A SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for your imaginary godfairy and now you present an imaginary demonfairy? LMFAO! you're batshit insane... i rebuke thee again satan!
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 08, 2012, 01:50:37 PM
P.s. You can't Change your life. That's what dead men's religion tries to do. You can only "surrender" your life, to Him who loves you and gave Himself for you. And He will in turn give you a NEW life! Ahhh.... That IS the proof!
Cheers,
Bruce
that's not proof of anything... other than you're a fucking moron who hasn't a clue of what constitutes logic, reason and proof.
have fun in hell bruce... you hypocrite.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 12:01:20 AM
first i'd like to thank you bruce allmighty, AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
so not only are you a fucking moron... you're a fucking hypocrite as well. you have called us:
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner
and yet you have the arrogance to bitch, whine and cry when i do to you what your holey babble tells me to do to you... that is to say... i am doing unto you as you have done unto others. you self-righteous, pretentious, sanctimonious, little hypocritical bitch. fuck you... you prick.
oh so that's why you babble insane imaginary bullshit... that's why you call us non faithers names. get thee back satan!
yeah you do... you haven't even presented A SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for your imaginary godfairy and now you present an imaginary demonfairy? LMFAO! you're batshit insane... i rebuke thee again satan!
that's not proof of anything... other than you're a fucking moron who hasn't a clue of what constitutes logic, reason and proof.
have fun in hell bruce... you hypocrite.
Straight from the Devil himself.... Thats not a judgment, that is fact. No smiles here.
Mags
Quote from: Qwert on October 08, 2012, 09:24:56 PM
This simple logic is illogical: God created everything, also Wilby; long time before he created Wilby, God already knew EXACTLY all Wilby's future actions. He created him anyway. So, because God created him THIS WAY, not ANY OTHER WAY it was acceptable for God. You cannot say that "God created Wilby this way, because this way was NOT ACCEPTABLE"; such reasoning has absolutely no sense. So, you should blame God that created Wilby this way while having many other possibilities. Anyway, this way looks not acceptable FOR YOU. How do you know that this is or is not acceptable by God? Maybe God has his own plan that he acts just this way?
I guess, this story fits reasoning of my previous post; see reply #370.
No, buddy your mistaken. like lucifer God created him perfectly. but even angels have freedom of choice. he did not get that freedom to become bad like wilby he is nonsense to talk.
its like we're talking to a devil haven't you realize that about the way he called us.
i think this devil should be banned by stefan this is not a place for a devil ! >:( [size=78%] [/size]
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 12:27:59 AM
Straight from the Devil himself.... Thats not a judgment, that is fact. No smiles here.
Mags
magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
you're a self-righteous fucking prick magsatan... get thee back! and have fun in hell...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 12:01:20 AM
i rebuke thee again satan!
Careful, you just might rebuke yourself till there is nothing left.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 12:32:19 AM
Careful, you just might rebuke yourself till there is nothing left.
Mags
::) i rebuked YOU, magsatan...
oh and magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 08, 2012, 11:29:04 PM
you're a fucking moron just like bruce, ramsatan and magudas iscariot... you're putting the cart before the horse you idiot. FIRST you need to present some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior creator friend... the book your imaginary godfairy wrote doesn't mean jack shit until you prove your imaginary godfairy is real.
get thee back tito/satan... i rebuke thee again!
"for gawd so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever would believe in him, would believe in anything..." Logic 3:16
big No! i think anyone here think that you are the SATAN here can't you feel it.
Why don't you watch your mouth. :)
You don't really know what is faith huh?
I think i'm degrading my self talking to this nonsense illogical person. :P
everyone i think we have to stop talking to this one, he always repeating nonsense logic!
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 12:31:04 AM
No, buddy your mistaken. like lucifer God created him perfectly. but even angels have freedom of choice. he did not get that freedom to become bad like wilby he is nonsense to talk.
its like we're talking to a devil haven't you realize that about the way he called us.
i think this devil should be banned by stefan this is not a place for a devil ! >:( [size=78%] [/size]
That is a great idea!!
Mags
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 12:34:28 AM
big No! i think anyone here think that you are the SATAN here can't you feel it.
Why don't you watch your mouth. :)
why don't you watch your mouth... ::)
oh and teetsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
I think this man is illiterate can't you feel that everyone?. really non sense! >:(
many times, one should call everyone a satan to hide his self but you can really sense that, the way he talk. logic. 8)
later dude i'm finish with you, you 're not my level. buy other one to talk to. :P
;D
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 12:35:36 AM
why don't you watch your mouth... ::)
oh and teetsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Hmm, this statement seems flawed coming from you. You might have to reword your copy/paste slogan....
"since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created "
Why would we need to present methods to falsify other Gods, when you have done it repeatedly by representing them as created by humanity?
And thank you for your tacit admission that our God is real. :o ;)
How do ya like dem apples? :P
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 12:49:34 AM
Hmm, this statement seems flawed coming from you. You might have to reword your copy/paste slogan....
"since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created "
Why would we need to present methods to falsify other Gods, when you have done it repeatedly by representing them as created by humanity?
And thank you for your tacit admission that our God is real. :o ;)
How do ya like dem apples? :P
Magzimus Leviticus
why? because the scientific method
requires it you moronic faither... but the scientific method is something you don't subscribe to, along with logic and reason... ::)
so you admit that zeus and ra and odin and vishnu, etc.. etc.. are as real as your gawd then...
gawd you're ignorant magsatan...
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 12:46:28 AM
I think this man is illiterate can't you feel that everyone?. really non sense! >:(
many times, one should call everyone a satan to hide his self but you can really sense that, the way he talk. logic. 8)
later dude i'm finish with you, you 're not my level. buy other one to talk to. :P
;D
come back when you have extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... or when you want me to serve you some more logic lessons...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 12:56:23 AM
so you admit that zeus and ra and odin and vishnu, etc.. etc.. are as real as your gawd then...
gawd you're ignorant magsatan...
Just like the devil to twist my words. Try again Satan. :o ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 01:01:42 AM
Just like the devil to twist my words. Try again Satan. :o ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 12:58:33 AM
come back when you have extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... or when you want me to serve you some more logic lessons...
No! you go away i'm always here, it is you who must present that God doesn't exist! you none sense! >:(
ok! here is your simple assignment : you prove me that an air is true. you present it in my eye huh! i'll wait you for hundred years ;)
I DID NOT SEE GOD BUT I FELT HIM FULLY IN MY HEART! PERIOD ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:02:49 AM
magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 12:46:28 AM
later dude i'm finish with you, you 're not my level. buy other one to talk to. :P
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 01:03:49 AM
No! you go away i'm always here, it is you who must present that God doesn't exist! you none sense! >:( [size=78%] [/size]
so now you're a liar too... ::) gawd hates liars teetsatan...
furthermore, it is you who must present that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist! you none sense!
if you asinine, moronic faithers don't like what i am saying... then forgive me.
isn't that what your precious jesus instructed you to do? or do you think yourselves greater than jesus? and so able to abrogate the word of gawd...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:04:42 AM
so now you're a liar too... ::) gawd hates liars teetsatan...
furthermore it is you who must present that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist! you none sense!
OK I'LL PRESENT MINE IF YOU CAN PRESENT YOURS HUH!. BE SURE ITS LOGICAL AND NOT JUST FROM COMICS. LOL ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 01:11:28 AM
OK I'LL PRESENT MINE IF YOU CAN PRESENT YOURS HUH!. BE SURE ITS LOGICAL AND NOT JUST FROM COMICS. LOL ;D
teetsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
sure. i'll be your huckleberry... you present yours first... idiot.
you think "the air isn't true"? i'll prove to you it is... hold your breath for 5 minutes... ::)
idiot.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:04:42 AM
furthermore it is you who must present that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist! you none sense!
"furthermore it is you who must present that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist! you none sense!" Copied just in case you edit. :P
Now it is up to us to show that our God doesnt exist? You're losing it wilb. Maybe your a bit tired of copy/paste.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:12:30 AM
sure. you present yours first... idiot.
you think "the air isn't true"? i'll prove to you it is... hold your breath for 5 minutes... ::)
idiot.
SORRY YOUR PROOF IS NOT ACCEPTED. WHY ? I DIDN'T SEE IT. LOL ;D SIMPLE AS THAT.
REVERSE, YOUR ATTACKING YOURSELF! LOL ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 01:14:04 AM
"furthermore it is you who must present that the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist! you none sense!" Copied just in case you edit. :P
Now it is up to us to show that our God doesnt exist? You're losing it wilb. Maybe your a bit tired of copy/paste.
your gawd is the flying spaghetti monster? you're losing it magsatan... ::)
and magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 01:16:01 AM
SORRY YOUR PROOF IS NOT ACCEPTED. WHY ? I DIDN'T SEE IT. LOL ;D SIMPLE AS THAT.
Good one. lol ;D ;)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 01:16:01 AM
SORRY YOUR PROOF IS NOT ACCEPTED. WHY ? I DIDN'T SEE IT. LOL ;D SIMPLE AS THAT.
so now you should understand why i don't accept your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... it's that simple isn't it teetsatan... ::)
and teetsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: Gwandau on October 08, 2012, 05:28:23 PM
Newton II,
It is all about being inside or outside you intellect. Consciousness is better off being outside the intellect, only using the intellect as a toolbox when needed. This is too all about conditioning from early childhood, and as far as I am concerned, the only feasable method to pop outside your intellect and getting acquainted with the state of mind without thought processes, is taking hallucinogenes with this intent in mind. Since taking hallucinogenes is both illegal and connected with certain dangers if executed wrongly, there is not many people who have had the opportunity to experience this state of mind.
'Stopping thinking' is quite common in nature and I don't think someone has to take drugs for that. Most of other animals also have got brain and they also can think but in a very low form compared to human beings. Hence these animals can easily stop thinking and enter into state of hybernation. During hybernation animal's heart beat, body temperature and other metabolic activities get reduced to a great extent. I read somewhere that when a human being enters into deep meditation his metabolic activities rate also goes down. Hybernation is different from normal sleeping - While sleeping, your anabolic activities only stop but metabolic activites like heart beat, respiration, digestion etc., will be going on as usual.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/human-hibernation-hypothermia.html
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:16:46 AM
your gawd is the flying spaghetti monster? you're losing it magsatan... ::)
and magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Twist, twist. Do I have to go back to show all the different names you have referenced toward God.
In stone.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:18:16 AM
so now you should understand why i don't accept your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... it's that simple isn't it teetsatan... ::)
and teetsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
nO BUDDY, YOUR MISTAKEN, I DON'T REALLY WANT TO BE ANGRY TO YOU, WHAT WE JUST WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT NOT JUST BY SEEING IT MEANS IT IS NOT EXISTING BUT WE CAN REALLY FEEEEEEEEL IT EXIST. LIKE AIR
BYE I'LL TAKE A LUNCH FIRST. :D
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 01:20:44 AM
Twist, twist. Do I have to go back to show all the different names you have referenced toward God.
In stone.
Magzimus Leviticus
magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:24:38 AM
magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time. :o ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 01:31:50 AM
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time. :o ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 01:54:58 AM
magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 01:59:19 AM
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time.
Magzimus Leviticus
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 02:04:13 AM
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time. :o :D Very consistent. :)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 02:07:36 AM
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time. :o :D Very consistent. :)
Magzimus Leviticus
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 02:08:19 AM
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time.. ;D ;) Night Wilb. God bless ya. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 02:15:08 AM
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time.. ;D ;) Night Wilb. God bless ya. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
nice hat. i am particularly impressed by the coating of egg salad that you applied to the aluminum foil to help attenuate the non-faither mind-control rays. it's that kind of attention to detail that distinguishes the true lunatics like yourself from the merely casual theists.
and thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
@the morons (newton, bruce, teets, magudas, and chetitio)
why in the world would a god need to be defended, and if he did... why in the world would he pick untrue xians like you?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 02:18:58 AM
nice hat. i am particularly impressed by the coating of egg salad that you applied to the aluminum foil to help attenuate the non-faither mind-control rays. it's that kind of attention to detail that distinguishes the true lunatics like yourself from the merely casual theists.
and thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Lol "lunatic" I can tell ya right now, I dont see any aluminum hats, nor any egg salad.
Buuut, you do. :o lol
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time... ::)
Magzimus Leviticus
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 02:29:16 AM
Lol "lunatic" I can tell ya right now, I dont see any aluminum hats, nor any egg salad.
Buuut, you do. :o lol
so... your tinfoil hat is gawd?
you're not a true christian... and neither is bruce, teets or ramsatan... thus, whatever you have to say about gawd or jesus is dismissed.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 02:29:06 AM
@the morons (newton, bruce, teets, magudas, and chetitio)
why in the world would a god need to be defended, and if he did... why in the world would he pick untrue xians like you?
God Loves ya Wilby.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 02:31:33 AM
God Loves ya Wilby.
Mags
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
have a nice hang on your cross you moron...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 02:30:54 AM
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
so... your tinfoil hat is gawd?
you're not a true christian... and neither is bruce, teets or ramsatan... thus, whatever you have to say about gawd or jesus is dismissed.
Oh, so now you just see the hat? What happened to the egg salad wilby?
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time.... :-*
Magzimus Leviticus ;)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 02:38:04 AM
Oh, so now you just see the hat? What happened to the egg salad wilby?
And thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that this is all you can come up with most of the time.... :-*
Magzimus Leviticus ;)
you do this (responding with various logical fallacies) because at some level, you know that you can't hold up your end in a real debate. that would require you to actually look at the evidence and analyze it... and you know, deep down, the dangers of that; you will not do anything that jeopardizes your world view...
and magsatan... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Double U us Hypocriticus maximus
These Words directed towardsMagzimus Leviticus, spoken during a time of tremendous waste of our planets time and Oxygen,
1 ] you're not a true christian
2] you will not do anything that jeopardizes your world view...
In example #1
Based on what evidence?
in example #2
You will not expound upon your view of Anything,yet you require this of Magzimus?
You are a thread Nazi ,a one way Groundhogday fallacy incarnate.
Hypocticusmegalomaximus..............
U.P.P.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 01:24:17 AM
BY SEEING IT MEANS IT IS NOT EXISTING BUT WE CAN REALLY FEEEEEEEEL IT EXIST. LIKE AIR
I FEEL it exists. So I defend his good name from illogical Bible. Of course, he is logical and not hypocritical at all. The Bible is (illogical and hypo). He created us and he did not create the Bible. The Bible was most probably created by a guy who wanted to manipulate his followers.
Quote from: ramset on October 09, 2012, 03:30:04 AM
Double U us Hypocriticus maximus
These Words directed towardsMagzimus Leviticus, spoken during a time of tremendous waste of our planets time and Oxygen,
1 ] you're not a true christian
2] you will not do anything that jeopardizes your world view...
In example #1
Based on what evidence?
in example #2
You will not expound upon your view of Anything,yet you require this of Magzimus?
You are a thread Nazi ,a one way Groundhogday fallacy incarnate.
Hypocticusmegalomaximus..............
U.P.P.
ramsatan... you do this (responding with various logical fallacies) because at some level, you know that you can't hold up your end in a real debate. that would require you to actually look at the evidence and analyze it... and you know, deep down, the dangers of that; you will not do anything that jeopardizes your world view...
1. your actions.
2. i require magudas satanicus iscariot to substantiate HIS asinine claims... in accordance with the scientific method.
3. thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
furthermore, you're the 'nazi'... you fucking prick. it is you faithers that condemn anyone unlike you to the furnaces. you're no 'true christian' either... you're a fucking self-righteous prick.
ONCE AGAIN
ramsatan, magudas satanicus iscariot, bruce the moron or any other of you faithers that consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review.
thank you for your cooperation.
nota bene: failure or refusal to present said methods will constitute another tacit admission that you have neither extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
It is interesting, though sad, to note the rank juvenility employed by wilby and those of his sort, as they refute God...
The best definition of an atheist I have found is: Atheist- One who tries to hurt God's feelings by denying His existence. They demand "peer review" and "empirical data" and on and on, yet no proof would be enough for such ones. It is up to God to come down to their level and beg approbation, delivering evidence on a silver platter, rather than God requiring the pipsqueaks to prove that they should be considered for admittance into His Long Established Kingdom.
Yahweh bless you wilby, and your associates, in Christ. For it is these blessings that are all the proof you truly seek.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc)
Quote from: TechStuf on October 09, 2012, 04:10:38 AM
It is interesting, though sad, to note the rank juvenility employed by wilby and those of his sort, as they refute God...
The best definition of an atheist I have found is: Atheist- One who tries to hurt God's feelings by denying His existence. They demand "peer review" and "empirical data" and on and on, yet no proof would be enough for such ones. It is up to God to come down to their level and beg approbation, delivering evidence on a silver platter, rather than God requiring the pipsqueaks to prove that they should be considered for admittance into His Long Established Kingdom.
Yahweh bless you wilby, and your associates, in Christ. For it is these blessings that are all the proof you truly seek.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc)
you do this (responding with various logical fallacies) because at some level, you know that you can't hold up your end in a real debate. that would require you to actually look at the evidence and analyze it... and you know, deep down, the dangers of that; you will not do anything that jeopardizes your world view...
the best definition of a faither that i have found is: retarded cultist
repent your spoons you filthy spooner... for the sauce of the flying spaghetti monster is the only way to everlasting life and eternal salvation.
oh... and thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
more logical fallacies and evasion from the retard godbots coming up in 3...2...1...
Quote from: Qwert on October 09, 2012, 03:41:55 AM
I FEEL it exist. So I defend his good name from illogical Bible. Of course, he is logical and not hypocritical at all. The Bible is (illogical and hypo). He created us and he did not create the Bible. The Bible was most probably created by a guy who wanted to manipulate his followers.
The Bible was written by different prophet, apostles and man of God with the full control of the Holy Spirit.
if you will seek for errors, conflics etc. then you can find surely for that cause the devil is there to make more in your head.
But if your spirit only seek for goodness, peace and love then you will not go wrong.
Because God is more alive Than us he knows the person if he has humility,goodness and faith, and from there HE will reveal his self to him more.
as Jesus said : believe first before you see And NOT! see first before you believe like wilby wants to.
Human's way is not God's way, Always remember that.
quod erat demonstrandum.
you can really see if a person doesn't have to offer more,
IT KEEPS ON REPEATING NONE SENSE.
I believe everyone knows truth though they are silent,
AND STILL IT IS MUCH MORE BETTER IN GOD'S SIDE CAUSE SOMEDAY A GREAT PUNISHMENT WILL COME TO THOSE THAT ARE NOT IN HIS SIDE.
AND THAT'S TOOO SOON.
God bless everyone
otits L. Noicaro :-* [size=78%] [/size]
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 06, 2012, 02:50:16 PM
My answers in bold!
Ahh, for this question is the crux of the matter.... "How do I know this is true?" Well, it is NOT because I one day picked up a book and started reading. No, you must understand, that I have PERSONALLY met the author of the Bible, the LIVING Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. He showed me His POWER, and His power is the power to save me, to change me, to set me free.
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Many of the other forum members have responded as well, but in brief, all of your responses were based on Christian dogma. So I will tackle this last bit, for everything else you say depends on it.
This thread is about the probability of god's existence. And probabilities require real evidence. You simply cannot use some private conversations you have had with god as a basis for your argument. If you could, then I would counter with the fact that many devout Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, what have you, also have private conversations with god and are just as sure of god's message, which wholly contradicts yours. Many of these faiths either completely ignore Jesus, or insist that Jesus was simply a holy man/rabbi, but not a divine being. And all of these people will swear on everything holy that god speaks to them and tells them the truth of their particlar sect of Muslim, Jewish, etc. faiths.
Now I know, there have been billions of Christians who all believed roughly your version of events, but you must understand that the truth of a thing is not related to how many people believe it.
I tell you what, pretend that there are no Christians in the world, and you just happen to dig up this 2000 year old book, spend some months studying it, believing its truth, and having some vision or whatever you want to call it, to where you decide the truth of the book. You now have to convince someone that this book is the true version of God. If you are speaking to an atheist, you will get nowhere, as they will require demonstrable proof. If you are speaking to a "person of faith", but a person of obviously some other faith, you will also get nowhere, as everything you say about your "private relationship" with Jesus will be countered by this person's private relationship with their own god. You will have a very very difficult time making any headway with anyone.
Compare this, say to a situation in real science. Let's say you want to assert that air is something tangible. This is not preposterous, as some centuries back, most people considered air to be "nothing", and not worth studying. Visible things found on earth were something, but air was nothing at all, so the wisdom went. Well, if you wanted to demonstrate the truth of this assertion, it would not matter at all that no one believed it - no "faith" is required at all. You could demonstrate the substance of air via air pumps. You could demonstrate what air is made of, as a critical part of it, oxygen, is necessary for animal life (Joseph Priestly made numerous experiments with glass bowls and mice). You could demonstrate how plants create oxygen. You could calculate the mass of air via precision instruments. And so on. I promise you, with enough time, the world would accept your version of what air is.
So, let me re-ask, what reason do you have that would convince another person of the truth of your Christian dogma. What observable evidence do you have. (For example, does praying to Jesus work better than praying to Poseidon? Is there evidence of this?, etc.) Please leave "faith" aside, as it appears that "faith" means believing in something based on inadequate evidence. This is a science forum, so let's stick to good evidence.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 09, 2012, 05:15:26 AM
Thanks for taking the time to answer. Many of the other forum members have responded as well, but in brief, all of your responses were based on Christian dogma. So I will tackle this last bit, for everything else you say depends on it.
You simply cannot use some private conversations you have had with god as a basis for any argument. If you could, then I would counter with the fact that many devout Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Wiccans, what have you, also have private conversations with god and are just as sure of god's message, which wholly contradicts yours. Many of these faiths either completely ignore Jesus, or insist that Jesus was simply a holy man/rabbi, but not a divine being. And all of these people will swear on everything holy that god speaks to them and tells them the truth of their particlar sect of Muslim, Jewish, etc. faiths.
Now I know, there have been billions of Christians who all believed roughly your version of events, but you must understand that the truth of a thing is not related to how many people believe it.
I tell you what, pretend that there are no Christians in the world, and you just happen to dig up this 2000 year old book, spend some months studying it, believing its truth, and having some vision or whatever you want to call it, to where you decide the truth of the book. You now have to convince someone that this book is the true version of God. If you are speaking to an atheist, you will get nowhere, as they will require demonstrable proof. If you are speaking to a "person of faith", but a person of obviously some other faith, you will also get nowhere, as everything you say about your "private relationship" with Jesus will be countered by this person's private relationship with their own god.
Compare this, say to a situation in real science. Let's say you want to assert that air is something tangible. This is not preposterous, as some centuries back, most people considered air to be "nothing", and not worth studying. Visible things found on earth were something, but air was nothing at all, so the wisdom went. Well, if you wanted to demonstrate the truth of this assertion, it would not matter at all that no one believed it. You could demonstrate the substance of air via air pumps. You could demonstrate what air is made of, as a critical part of it, oxygen, is necessary for animal life (Joseph Priestly made numerous experiments with glass bowls and mice). You could demonstrate how plants create oxygen. You could calculate the mass of air via precision instruments. And so on.
So, let me re-ask, what reason do you have that would convince another person of the truth of your Christian dogma. What observable evidence do you have. (For example, does praying to Jesus work better than praying to Poseidon? Is there evidence of this?, etc.)
:-\
oh boy another none sense :(
i'm tired, my nose is bleeding in English.
Christians!, the floor is now yours. depend our flag. :D
I have already showed all the vital point medicine to these atheists. but still not comprehending right to the truth. :-\
i'm out a here!
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 05:29:07 AM
:-\
oh boy another none sense :(
i'm tired, my nose is bleeding in English.
Christians!, the floor is now yours. depend our flag. :D [size=78%] [/size]
I have already showed all the vital point medicine to these atheists. but still not comprehending right to the truth. :-\
[size=78%]
[/size]
[size=78%]i'm out a here! [/size]
Tito, you have yet to give any reason beyond dogma. If you have any evidence for Jesus that we can verify and test (any double blind studies?), please let us know what it is.
Quote from: TechStuf on October 09, 2012, 04:10:38 AM
snip..
The best definition of an atheist I have found is
snip..
Yahweh bless you wilby, and your associates, in Christ. For it is these blessings that are all the proof you truly seek.
Its interesting and a little ironic how the meanings and definition of words can change throughout history to eventually mean the opposite of their original intent.
Today, an atheist is usually associated with a non belief in any god, and an agnostic is associated with a non belief in any religion.
Some people are either, and some people are both.
But in ancient greece, theists or agnostics (words derived from ancient greece) were followers and believers of all the greek gods including the god called "agnostos theos". Theology then was the study of and belief in "theos"(plural), which included "agnosotos" and the student/believer was a theist or agnostic, or both.
The name of the god "agnostos theos" means "unknown god". Theos means god, and the suffix was applied to the whole pantheon of greek god/s.
Any christian therefore who proclaims and rejoices in the name of (their) god, be it yahweh, jehovah, elohim or the great flying spaghetti monster, is (in the original greek meanings), an atheist or gnostic, because they do not believe in an unknown god, or a pantheon of gods, they believe only in one "named, known god".
Cheers
hoptoad... you are aware that the flying spaghetti monster is a reductio argument... right?
and you are aware that this isn't ancient greece... right?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 09, 2012, 05:33:00 AM
Tito, you have yet to give any reason beyond dogma. If you have any evidence for Jesus that we can verify and test (any double blind studies?), please let us know what it is.
ok! For your sake i will repeat again.
First God Requirement: God wants us to believe first To see and Not! to see first and believe.
Now: since this is not your way then i will now conclude that you won't believe me since this is not your way right?
There is no material things that can be a proof for God but if you will humble yourself before God, He will reveal His self to you.
i'll repeat!: TO BELIEVE IS TO SEEEEEEEEE NOT TO SEE IS TO BELIEVE.
GOT IT?
ok here is the verse ISAIAH 55:8
THAT IS THE VERY VERY BIG REASON IN YOUR EYE WHY YOU CAN'T SEE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD!!!! >:(
UNDERSTOOOOOOOOD! >:(
ok for your sake again: you read this: http://www.running2win.net/level3/l3n2w_godvsman1.htm
to help you more, continue reading:
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?gclid=CLaOlcza87ICFQ176wodqEcA5w (http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?gclid=CLaOlcza87ICFQ176wodqEcA5w)
you know what your problem is : humility from GOD!
GOODBYE! >:(
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 05:44:32 AM
hoptoad... you are aware that the flying spaghetti monster is a reductio argument... right?
and you are aware that this isn't ancient greece... right?
LOL ... sometimes I think it could be. Or wish it were. Ancient greece I mean! :P
And hey, dont call my flying spaghetti monster god a reductio. It may hear you and be offended.
No telling what the consequences might be.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 09, 2012, 05:57:38 AM
LOL ... sometimes I think it could be. Or wish it were. Ancient greece I mean! :P
And hey, dont call my flying spaghetti monster god a reductio. It may hear you and be offended.
No telling what the consequences might be.
indeed sometimes i wish it were too as we would be free of this asinine, persistent xian demand that our gods be perfect... the greeks were much more reasonable about such things.
may the sauce of the flying spaghetti monster marinate your and yours. may pasta always be upon your plate and may your balls be forever meaty. r'amen.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 05:55:11 AM
ok! For your sake i will repeat again.
First God Requirement: God wants us to believe first To see and Not! to see first and believe.
Now: since this is not your way then i will now conclude that you won't believe me since this is not your way right?
There is no material things that can be a proof for God but if you will humble yourself before God, He will reveal His self to you.
i'll repeat!: TO BELIEVE IS TO SEEEEEEEEE NOT TO SEE IS TO BELIEVE.
GOT IT?
ok here is the verse ISAIAH 55:8
THAT IS THE VERY VERY BIG REASON IN YOUR EYE WHY YOU CAN'T SEE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD!!!! >:(
UNDERSTOOOOOOOOD! >:(
ok for your sake again: you read this: http://www.running2win.net/level3/l3n2w_godvsman1.htm
keep trying to convince yourself of that teetsatan... ::)
and once again, for the sake of logic and reason, you need to present some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. quotes from the holy babble are irrelevant until you provide one or both of those two things.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 06:16:08 AM
keep trying to convince yourself of that teetsatan... ::)
and once again, for the sake of logic and reason, you need to present some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. quotes from the holy babble are irrelevant until you provide one or both of those two things.
You remember all things you have said Boy, cause you will eat all of them someday and that's too late for you. remember that in your life. :)
yes maybe this is your time but remember you cannot say the next day, and its for the Lord.
your really not my level sorry. :P
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 06:25:47 AM
You remember all things you have said Boy, cause you will eat all of them someday and that's too late for you. remember that in your life. :)
how juvenile... ::) ohh... i'm so scared teets. ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 06:28:40 AM
how juvenile... ::) ohh... i'm so scared teets. ::)
ya just laugh next time its the Lord will laugh.
yin-yang again.
For simplicity we imagine a circle (a sphere if you like)
This is the boundary wherein the black and the white may act.
The black and the white develop each their own dynamism.
This dynamism is due to the white spot in the black, the black spot
in the white.
Let’s examine extreme situations:
The white “eats†or “invades†the black, even the black spot.
The entire circle is white. No more dynamism possible. Meaningless.
The same happens when the black eats the white.
At the rare situation, because off their own dynamism, when they are
equal (but opposite) beautiful things are happening !!
When (God+Lilith) became Adam and Eve, they lived in paradise.
In the everlasting equal but opposite, until … she eats the apple !!
Paradise lost, each their own dynamism.
If you have difficulties with those pictures, you just take the beautiful
Life Example: men and woman. Because we all are Adams and Eves.
All I sad on top is applicable.
Boundaries are house or marriage.
The black “eats†the white: the man kills his wife ! Or vice-versa.
There is no honor in that.
When they are equal but opposite (rubbing each other !!)
There is genesis !!
And a million possibilities in between.
You only have to admit that the Lord never dismissed the Devil.
Because together they are unity !! They are acting side by side,
developing their own dynamism.
To much Lilith gives earthquakes and tsunamis.
God then is so small, you even don’t notice him.
This reality works in whatever system.
Take 2 systems, par example:
God and Lilith
Adam and Eve
Man and Woman
Money and Save the world
Muslim an Catholic
Shiites and Sunnites
Electricity and Magnetism
Water and Air
Night and Day
Design their boundaries, wherein they can develop their own dynamism.
A cell, a house, a country, a cable, an atmosphere, the universe, Wu wei.
Let them swing. Take your own conclusion, imagine the beauty at equilibrium !!
Some examples explaining everything:
There are brainless Muslims that kill for a word.
Their Lilith has to bee really big. Look at the small way they treat their women !!
The catholic church: the way they treat women, their Lilith has to bee sky-high.
Child abuse. (Ancient cultures worshiped Lilith, but feared here for killing
babies at night, men put a knife on the night table to protect them from here.)
In those cases you have to give real power to women.
This would end terrorism and child abuse.
While reading this, you should listen to Chris de Burgh, Spanish Train.
Wonderful and ad rem.
Peter
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 06:30:39 AM
ya just laugh next time its mine. lol hahahahahahahahhahhahahha :D
ohh... that's so christian of you... ::)
you're not a true christian. you are satan's tool.
edit: and now you've changed your post... you're so deceitful. you wicked tool of satan...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 06:32:37 AM
ohh... that's so christian of you... ::)
you're not a true christian. you are satan's tool.
edit: and now you've changed your post... you're so deceitful. you wicked tool of satan...
ohhhhh, i edit it because i felt pity to you. hahahahahhahahahhahahh lol
i'm amaze you are believing to your father satan. Why?, did you see him?. i think you really have relationship. lol hhahahahahahhahhahha ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 05:02:24 AM
The Bible was written by different prophet, apostles and man of God with the full control of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, the Bible is a collection of different scriptures collected together by a person who wanted to manipulate his/her followers. I'm very glad you agree. ;D
Quote from: Qwert on October 09, 2012, 06:41:22 AM
Yes, the Bible is a collection of different scriptures collected together by a person who wanted to manipulate his/her followers. I'm very glad you agree. ;D
Your word "manipulate" is wrong but "share the gospel"
You know what means "written inspired by the holy spirit"?
read more buddy.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 06:39:35 AM
ohhhhh, i edit it because i felt pity to you. hahahahahhahahahhahahh lol
gawd hates liars... and gawd knows you are liar teetsatan...
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 06:39:35 AM
i'm amaze you are believing to your father satan.
I guess, you believe God created everything. How then you say here that his father is satan?
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 06:45:08 AM
You know what means "written inspired by the holy spirit"?
I guess then, all scriptures written by humanity must be inspired by holy spirit.
Quote from: Qwert on October 09, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
I guess, you believe God created everything. How then you say here that his father is satan?
Tito didnt say 'is'. Dont put words in his mouth. Reread his quote.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 08:34:09 AM
Tito didnt say 'is'. Dont put words in his mouth. Reread his quote.
Mags
don't be coy or stupid. whether he actually said 'is'... is irrelevant. ::) he was saying that my father is satan... and teetsatan hasn't the mastery of english to know that a copula is required between the subject and predicative nominal.
W
I don't Judge Tito ,the mere word [judge]carrys the threat of "sentence".
I carry no authority ........
My Position on brother Tito
3 to 4 years ago folks in this Open source Forum were Begged by Tito for help in finding OU.
as a christian he carried some weight of Integrity with his request.
Some of us here have great plans for OU ,and some of us here believe beyond any doubt ,it must not be used for personal selfish gain.
just Like member Ghost who has layed out his intention to help the truly needy from needless death.
Such a Technology would definately save countless lives.
And Tito carries this Knowledge now.
He has said repeatedly since he got his wish 3 or more years ago
that he now wants money for what he recieved here,....as well as
"God must be letting those people Die for "his reasons".
"Sorry I want Money."He spits these words out one side of his face
and jabs at "w" with the other.
I do not Judge him or anyone else I just pay attention.........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on October 09, 2012, 09:00:14 AM
And Tito carries this Knowledge now.
no... he doesn't... you gullible fool.
and regarding integrity... out of all the people i have met, xians have the least integrity.
Satan is the god (small g) of this world. And he is your father, and was mine. Until the day I gave my life to Jesus Christ and was ADOPTED at that moment into the family of God. This is why Jesus said that you must be born again!! The first time we are born, we are born of the flesh, in sin, doing the will and the lusts of our earthly father, satan. But the second time we are born, or re-born, we are born of the Spirit, wanting to do the will and desire of our Heavenly Father. The law (ten commandments) no longer soley written upon tablets of stone, but now God, by His Holy Spirit has taken that law, and written it upon the fleshly tablets of our heart. So that we are no longer law breakers, but fulfill the law. For the wages (paycheck) of sin is death. But the free gift of God is life and peace through Jesus Christ our Lord.
His servant,
Bruce
W
If people who Profess Christ, have shown the least amount of integrity to you.
Then I understand your position.
My point is [myself included] A lot of people profess to be Christians,but act like they are at a Super market picking and chosing what things they will apply and what things they will ignore.
They might as well Pull up a coach let the birds in ,take a few hallucingens
and Get themselves into that "I don't think anymore" "its all about me" place.........
There are very hard things you must do to profess Faith [most faiths]
when you Pick and chose you are not honoring your faith............
END OF STORY
>.<
Chet
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 09, 2012, 10:16:55 AM
Satan is the god (small g) of this world. And he is your father, and was mine. Until the day I gave my life to Jesus Christ and was ADOPTED at that moment into the family of God. This is why Jesus said that you must be born again!! The first time we are born, we are born of the flesh, in sin, doing the will and the lusts of our earthly father, satan. But the second time we are born, or re-born, we are born of the Spirit, wanting to do the will and desire of our Heavenly Father. The law (ten commandments) no longer soley written upon tablets of stone, but now God, by His Holy Spirit has taken that law, and written it upon the fleshly tablets of our heart. So that we are no longer law breakers, but fulfill the law. For the wages (paycheck) of sin is death. But the free gift of God is life and peace through Jesus Christ our Lord.
His servant,
Bruce
you haven't a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof to substantiate this asinine, fantastical claim.
and now you're claiming that newborn babies are "doing the will and lusts of satan"... you're a fucking certifiable psychopath.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 09, 2012, 10:16:55 AM
Satan is the god (small g) of this world. And he is your father, and was mine. Until the day I gave my life to Jesus Christ and was ADOPTED at that moment into the family of God. This is why Jesus said that you must be born again!! The first time we are born, we are born of the flesh, in sin, doing the will and the lusts of our earthly father, satan. But the second time we are born, or re-born, we are born of the Spirit, wanting to do the will and desire of our Heavenly Father. The law (ten commandments) no longer soley written upon tablets of stone, but now God, by His Holy Spirit has taken that law, and written it upon the fleshly tablets of our heart. So that we are no longer law breakers, but fulfill the law. For the wages (paycheck) of sin is death. But the free gift of God is life and peace through Jesus Christ our Lord.
His servant,
Bruce
Why are you preaching? Until you come up with evidence beyond what is in your mind, this has no bearing on the probability of god's existence, which is what this thread is about.
Quote from: Newton II on October 09, 2012, 01:19:52 AM
'Stopping thinking' is quite common in nature and I don't think someone has to take drugs for that. Most of other animals also have got brain and they also can think but in a very low form compared to human beings. Hence these animals can easily stop thinking and enter into state of hybernation. During hybernation animal's heart beat, body temperature and other metabolic activities get reduced to a great extent. I read somewhere that when a human being enters into deep meditation his metabolic activities rate also goes down. Hybernation is different from normal sleeping - While sleeping, your anabolic activities only stop but metabolic activites like heart beat, respiration, digestion etc., will be going on as usual.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/human-hibernation-hypothermia.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/human-hibernation-hypothermia.html)
@ Newton II,
What on earth are you talking about? Hibernation?! You really lost it there, did you not?
We were talking about BEING HERE AND NOW by not thinking. Fully aware, fully mentally conscious of everything around us to a degree far exceeding the ability of a thinking mind.
HIBERNATION???? LOL.
Don't fly higher than you can navigate.
Gwandau
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 05:55:11 AM
First God Requirement: God wants us to believe first To see and Not! to see first and believe.
@ Tito L. Oracion,
wrong, your male god never said that, because "he" have never said anything whatsoever, and you know it very well. All words of your god comes from hearsay, from someone else telling you he heard it.
And you know just as well as me that the bible carry no proof of anything, even if it, among a bunch of letters, also contains quite interesting historical documents taken from serveral other older religions and edited to fit into the gnostic preparations that would later be labeled Christianity. A book written by men.
To believe this hearsay to the degree of letting all your doubts fly away will certainly give you the same kick as the sane gets when taking the critical final step into insanity.
But I really do not critisize this step of yours, everyone is free to believe whatever one wants as long as he/she expresses a sound integrity by keeping it for him/herself.
And to believe something that is not been proven by scientific indenpendent sources is fully OK as long as you are fully aware that you just believe and really don't know.
But the moment you take the step into BELIEVING THAT YOU KNOW, you are no longer a sane person. To believe that you know has nothing to do with knowledge. To believe that you know is still just believing.
Don't you get it? The mistake is right there in front of your eyes.
And the moment you confuse your belief with knowledge, you end being humble.
Now you start imposing your belief upon others, making you a not very humble person.
Stick with your belief if you feel the need, but don't think you know, because you don't. Gwandau
Gwandau
Quote
We were talking about BEING HERE AND NOW by not thinking. Fully aware, fully mentally conscious of everything around us to a degree far exceeding the ability of a thinking mind.
------------------------------
Knowing a bit about what you speak of.[not enough]
would you have the whole planet in this state ?
Or is this for a select few?
Do you have an agenda with this [besides this "awareness" obliviating all things "God"] ?
By Agenda I mean to Spread this Experience to others,to share?
Or is there some satisfaction in being so Unique,... that you would miss if everyone was just like you ?
The ability to stay in "this day" or Now is not all that novel,but quite hard to do.
Just trying to understand..........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 09, 2012, 11:28:14 AM
Why are you preaching? Until you come up with evidence beyond what is in your mind, this has no bearing on the probability of god's existence, which is what this thread is about.
I have given you all evidence time and time again, but you refuse to hear. The "evidence", one of MANY is a changed life. MINE. And BILLIONS of others around the globe through out the last 2 thousand years.
Evidence: Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Historical FACT, and the fact that I have personally met Him, I can also vouch for the truth of the matter.
Evidence: Bible prophecy. There is no God like our God who knows the end from the beginning. Hundreds of bible prophecies fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled. Jesus alone fulfilled EXACTLY, to THE LETTER, over 139 specific Bible prophecies, ranging from his prebirth, birth, life, death and ressurection. The ODDS of this happening by chance, are about the same as the following story:
A man is flying over the Pacific Ocean in a plane. He drops a wedding ring from that plane at an altitude of 10,000 feet. The next day, he goes back in a helicopter, and using a fishing pole with a hook, ensnares that same small finger ring. EVIDENCE.... HA! It is EVERYWHERE!!! But seeing you do not see and hearing you do not hear. ALL of creation speaks of God and His wisdom and power can be seen in everything, so you are WITHOUT EXCUSE, O MAN!
Evidence: Have you ever seen your brain? How do you know that you have one? You have seen and studied other people and creatures brains, but have you physically laid eyes on your own? Do you really know? The "evidence" is that you have one, right? But without seeing an XRay of your own, you can't prove it? Or can you? I believe you could.
Take a deep breath. Did you inhale air? How do you know? Can you see it? The Lord's Spirit can not be see at this time, neither can the wind! But just like you can see the effects of the wind as it blows, so too, in like manner can you see the effects of God's Holy Spirit. We see it in creation. We see it in the multitude of CHANGED lives. We see it in Bible prophecy fulfilled, being fulfilled and YET to be fulfilled.
But still, the crux of the matter is FAITH. And without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God!! For he that believes, must believe that GOD IS, and that he is a rewarder of those that seek after him.
Evidence abounds! As a matter of fact there is so much evidence of our Creator in Creation, it makes me laugh out loud, (LOL to us geeks) to hear the doubters go on. Funny, I have friends like me, whose IQ's are in the genius level and they all have unwavering faith in God. So it is not a matter of intelligence but of "calling". You see, no one can come unto the Father unless His Spirit first draws their heart. Some readers here perhaps sense that drawing even as they read. Open your heart to Him and believe!
His Servant,
Bruce
Jesus Christ rose from the dead. It's NOT a historical FACT. It's a religious fact. Historical fact is Jesus' life however.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 09, 2012, 03:49:29 PM
Evidence: Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Historical FACT, and the fact that I have personally met Him, I can also vouch for the truth of the matter.
So no matter what your faith or lack thereof, this begs for an insert of humor:
So where did you meet him? At a convention? Was he the guest speaker? Or at the mall? Or was he just wandering around, "lost'?
Did you get your bible autographed?
Did you post your picture with him on FB?
too much fun, gotta go .... LOL
tak
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 08:34:09 AM
Tito didnt say 'is'. Dont put words in his mouth. Reread his quote.
Mags
You are right. It should be, for example:
I guess, you believe God created everything. How then you can say here "your father satan"?
Looks better? Satisfied?
Quote from: Qwert on October 09, 2012, 04:35:50 PM
You are right. It should be, for example:
I guess, you believe God created everything. How then you can say here "your father satan"?
Looks better? Satisfied?
Here is what Tito was replying to from Wilby...
"ohh... that's so christian of you... (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=b520627f108a45c3271195256284bfbceaa8aa95)
you're not a true christian. you are satan's tool.
edit: and now you've changed your post... you're so deceitful. you wicked tool of satan..." post 445
Anyone that reads that would think it implies that Wilby shows that he believes in Satan, yet not God as demonstrated many times, or, he is being sarcastic. Tito being not fully in concert with the english language will take what Wilby said at face value. It looks like Wilby believes there is a Satan. So Tito says...
"i'm amaze you are believing to your father satan. Why?, did you see him?"
Clearly Tito is wondering if Wilby considers Satan as his father. He is asking wilby, in amazement, why he considers Satan as his father. Because, if Wilby denies God for the most part because he cannot see him, how can Wilby make such statements such as "you are satan's tool." or " you wicked tool of satan..." if he didnt believe Satan exists, mostly because he cannot see him, just like he cannot see God?? ;]
In no way is Tito claiming that it "is" fact, because what Titio said, "did you see him?" , Tito already knows that Wilby would not believe in something that he cannot see, clearly it is written across all these pages. In stone.
Then you say, " I guess, you believe God created everything. How then you say here that his father is satan?" Again, Tito is questioning in amazement or even disbelief, as the 2 questions, "Why?, did you see him?" after, clearly show. Some people do follow Satan, whether they believe there is a God or not. Some make that choice.
If we are going to argue or debate this subject, I will make argument on these comments and statements that are wrong, misleading and untruthful. I will pick it apart and get to the bottom of it. ;]
I wont let someone lie to make their case that God doesnt exist. If thats the way you guys will play this game, you will simple look like fools, if I have anything to do with it. ;]
Mags
Quote from: ramset on October 09, 2012, 02:04:05 PM
Gwandau
Quote
We were talking about BEING HERE AND NOW by not thinking. Fully aware, fully mentally conscious of everything around us to a degree far exceeding the ability of a thinking mind.
------------------------------
Knowing a bit about what you speak of.[not enough]
would you have the whole planet in this state ?
Or is this for a select few?
Do you have an agenda with this [besides this "awareness" obliviating all things "God"] ?
By Agenda I mean to Spread this Experience to others,to share?
Or is there some satisfaction in being so Unique,... that you would miss if everyone was just like you ?
The ability to stay in "this day" or Now is not all that novel,but quite hard to do.
Just trying to understand..........
Thx
Chet
@ramset,
thank you for a decent response quite contrary to the majority of posts in this overheated thread,
and if your interest is genuine it shows that we can actually listen without having to share the others point of view.
In fact, only those who do not feel threatend by other persons point of view have the ability to listen.
QuoteWould you have the whole planet in this state ? Or is this for a select few?
To be here and now is the original natural state of every being on this planet. It is the only natural way to experience reality. It is the way we are born. Everything else that consciousness experiences is nothing but dead copies, second hand information stored in the intellect and projected upon everything we perceive as a distortive filter.
The natural state of mind would be the "Camera state". Instead we have become "Projectors", projecting our blueprints upon reality around us. That's why we have such a hard time to see things for what they are.
So there is really nothing special with being free of thoughts, it is modern man who has become a very special and perverted being by deviating from the natural state of mind.
Since this unfortunately is the normal state of mind today, the natural state has become exotic and strange, almost intimidating.
QuoteDo you have an agenda with this [besides this "awareness" obliviating all things "God"] ?
By Agenda I mean to Spread this Experience to others,to share?
I have no agenda besides the futile dream of a planet were every human being are free from any form of dogma and were the virtues of true self respect casts it's light of peace, love and understanding upon everyone we meet.
Moral guidlines handed to us by authorities, may it be religious dogma or the law book, are poor crutches unfortunately neccessary in a world where self respect is as low as self esteem is high. The natural state of Man on earth will effortslessly create a society without any need for laws,police force, military, or moral guidelines. Just human beings with enough deposits on their own "inner bank accounts of self respect" to afford selfless behaviour, love and understanding to shine all around us.
I am not "obliviating all things "God"", I am just concerned about the sad tendency to follow fabricated dogmatic paths, which one time originally may have had some substance but which afterwards have been violated and destorted to fit the hiearchic society.
As far as I am concerned, God is not a being in the limited sense of perspective presented by organized religion. If you need a God, let God be a state of mind that equals egolessness. Jesus and Buddha were both enlightened and egoless - one with God, and if you read about these two men without putting on the dogmatic glasses, you will see that they emphasized again and again that this state of mind was everybodys right to experience.
QuoteOr is there some satisfaction in being so Unique,... that you would miss if everyone was just like you ?
Everyone is potentially Unique, that's what it is all about. Today we are born into a society as originals but mostly tend to die as copies. That is very sad and is highly unfair to the newborn child.
QuoteThe ability to stay in "this day" or Now is not all that novel,but quite hard to do.
Balance the tightrope of being Here and Now long enough and you will understand what I am talking about. It does not cost anything but your own Intent and it will make the true nature of your God visible.
Gwandau
Good morning everyone ;)
@mags
Ya buddy that is really in detailed i wan a meant. :D
Thank you for the explain buddy.
i have here this: [size=78%]http://bible.cc/john/8-44.htm (http://bible.cc/john/8-44.htm)[/size]
now do you think we can trust wilby?, will you trust that kind of mouth. you're putting yourself into fire if you will.
well, yes i'm no perfect but what i'm saying is truth.
@qwert
inspired by the holy spirit: men controlled by the holy, good spirit.
do you think wilby can write those book if he is in control by the bad spirit. off course you can here from him the words moron, idiot, satan tool, tacit, spagetti, repeating useless words etc. lol ;D
you can really discern a man to whoose spirit is in control with him. and you know what i mean. gus that is basic! :o
[size=78%] [/size]
;D
Quote from: Gwandau on October 09, 2012, 01:19:30 PM
@ Tito L. Oracion,
wrong, your male god never said that, because "he" have never said anything whatsoever, and you know it very well.
All words of your god comes from hearsay, from someone else telling you he heard it.
And you know just as well as me that the bible carry no proof of anything, even if it, among a bunch of letters, also contains quite interesting historical documents taken from serveral other older religions and edited to fit into the gnostic preparations that would later be labeled Christianity. A book written by men.
To believe this hearsay to the degree of letting all your doubts fly away will certainly give you the same kick as the sane gets when taking the critical final step into insanity.
But I really do not critisize this step of yours, everyone is free to believe whatever one wants as long as he/she expresses a sound integrity by keeping it for him/herself.
And to believe something that is not been proven by scientific indenpendent sources is fully OK as long as you are fully aware that you just believe and really don't know.
But the moment you take the step into BELIEVING THAT YOU KNOW, you are no longer a sane person.
To believe that you know has nothing to do with knowledge. To believe that you know is still just believing.
Don't you get it? The mistake is right there in front of your eyes.
And the moment you confuse your belief with knowledge, you end being humble.
Now you start imposing your belief upon others, making you a not very humble person.
Stick with your belief if you feel the need, but don't think you know, because you don't.
Gwandau
oh boy i'm going to repeat again the story of thomas. :-\
http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html (http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html)
Jesus the God the son said it is better to believe first before you see. did you got that?
i'll repeat again this: God's is not our way
http://2praisegod.com/blog/2010/03/gods-ways-are-not-our-ways/ (http://2praisegod.com/blog/2010/03/gods-ways-are-not-our-ways/)
hey you, before you are writing anything here commenting to me, sure to yourself that you had read my previous post so that i am not repeating them again! like wilby >:( got that! >:( >:(
Gwandau
Thank you for your responce ,as well as the respectful way you carry yourself.
I appreciate your honesty ,and recognize your desire to have men enjoy what you have found to be "aware".
I myself Have struggled with understanding,I personally Fear this search you embarked on ,and I suppose I cannot explain it ,except to say ,I would fear for my sanity.
I have seen men Go to places on these "searches" and never come back .And the place they end up is not as you describe ,it is torment.
I was free'd of this torment by My complete surrender of my own will,and an agreement I made to serve. it has not been easy, a lot of the things some of you fellows are saying have troubled me for quite some time .
So I personally walk by Faith With the knowledge that where I came from can not compare with where I am now.
And I help others get free from their torment.
One day at a time asking questions and Paying attention..........
I like you Gwandau ,you have Character and are a very smart and genuine man with good sincere intentions.
I think you will find It won't be so bad sharing the planet with me!
Thx
Chet
Ps some people here don't care about the Tormented or the suffering,they think its not their problem..........
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 08:15:11 PM
do you think wilby can write those book if he is in control by the bad spirit. off course you can here from him the words moron, idiot, satan tool, tacit, spagetti, repeating useless words etc. lol ;D
you can really discern a man to whoose spirit is in control with him. and you know what i mean. gus that is basic! :o
[size=78%] [/size]
;D
The point is that anyone can do better than the Bible. For example, the 10 Commandments. Most of these are just terrible. Only 6, 8 and 9 are truly defensible (do not kill, steal, bear false witness). 5 (honor thy father and mother) is ok, but really it can be replaced by something broader. Number 7 - adultery. Well, adultery is bad, but is it really one of the 10 worst things? Come on, there aren't even generally laws against this in most modern societies.
Number 10 is really twisted. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor house, nor manservant, nor ox." I see the bible puts wives as objects, equivalent to oxen and houses. Moreover, this appears to punish our thoughts, which is just wrong.
Numbers 1 through 4 are utterly pointless. Have no other gods, no graven images, no taking name in vain, do not work on sabbath. God sure is jealous for a all powerful being. Why is he so worried that you might worship something else? Pretty petty emotion for a divine being. And the name in vain thing and sabbath are just dumb.
Here is a new list, much improved. Let me know if any of the shitty ones I took out are really needed.
1. Be respectful to all other humans and do not do things that harm them physically or emotionally or that damage their property, unless they first act in a way that is harmful to you or others.
2. Do not harm or hurt animals needlessly.
3. Be kind and supportive to your family.
4. If you have children, take care of them and do your best to make sure they grow up to be good people.
5. Be productive in life if you are able - do not be a burden to others.
6. Be especially kind and unselfish to your closest family and friends, including your spouse or significant other.
There, that took 10 minutes of thought, it is not even 10 in total, and it is a much improved list. This Bible is nothing but trash, if anyone can improve it so easily.
I think Sam Harris noted it well. After Isaac Newton published his book on the laws of motion, it took mankind roughly 200 years to find anything wrong with what he wrote and to improve upon it. On the other hand, I bet a child can easily improve the Old Testament after a few minutes though. Now tell me which is the divine text?
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 06:37:20 PM
Here is what Tito was replying to from Wilby...
"ohh... that's so christian of you... (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=b520627f108a45c3271195256284bfbceaa8aa95)
you're not a true christian. you are satan's tool.
edit: and now you've changed your post... you're so deceitful. you wicked tool of satan..." post 445
Anyone that reads that would think it implies that Wilby shows that he believes in Satan, yet not God as demonstrated many times, or, he is being sarcastic. Tito being not fully in concert with the english language will take what Wilby said at face value. It looks like Wilby believes there is a Satan. So Tito says...
"i'm amaze you are believing to your father satan. Why?, did you see him?"
Clearly Tito is wondering if Wilby considers Satan as his father. He is asking wilby, in amazement, why he considers Satan as his father. Because, if Wilby denies God for the most part because he cannot see him, how can Wilby make such statements such as "you are satan's tool." or " you wicked tool of satan..." if he didnt believe Satan exists, mostly because he cannot see him, just like he cannot see God?? ;]
In no way is Tito claiming that it "is" fact, because what Titio said, "did you see him?" , Tito already knows that Wilby would not believe in something that he cannot see, clearly it is written across all these pages. In stone.
Then you say, " I guess, you believe God created everything. How then you say here that his father is satan?" Again, Tito is questioning in amazement or even disbelief, as the 2 questions, "Why?, did you see him?" after, clearly show. Some people do follow Satan, whether they believe there is a God or not. Some make that choice.
If we are going to argue or debate this subject, I will make argument on these comments and statements that are wrong, misleading and untruthful. I will pick it apart and get to the bottom of it. ;]
I wont let someone lie to make their case that God doesnt exist. If thats the way you guys will play this game, you will simple look like fools, if I have anything to do with it. ;]
Mags
teetsatan was being as sarcastic as i was you moron... ::)
furthermore... not a single one of you faithers has 'made a case' for your fucking imaginary friend. thus, no one needs to 'make a case against'... you moron.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 09, 2012, 03:49:29 PM
I have given you all evidence time and time again, but you refuse to hear. The "evidence", one of MANY is a changed life. MINE. And BILLIONS of others around the globe through out the last 2 thousand years.
Evidence: Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Historical FACT, and the fact that I have personally met Him, I can also vouch for the truth of the matter.
Evidence: Bible prophecy. There is no God like our God who knows the end from the beginning. Hundreds of bible prophecies fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled. Jesus alone fulfilled EXACTLY, to THE LETTER, over 139 specific Bible prophecies, ranging from his prebirth, birth, life, death and ressurection. The ODDS of this happening by chance, are about the same as the following story:
A man is flying over the Pacific Ocean in a plane. He drops a wedding ring from that plane at an altitude of 10,000 feet. The next day, he goes back in a helicopter, and using a fishing pole with a hook, ensnares that same small finger ring. EVIDENCE.... HA! It is EVERYWHERE!!! But seeing you do not see and hearing you do not hear. ALL of creation speaks of God and His wisdom and power can be seen in everything, so you are WITHOUT EXCUSE, O MAN!
Evidence: Have you ever seen your brain? How do you know that you have one? You have seen and studied other people and creatures brains, but have you physically laid eyes on your own? Do you really know? The "evidence" is that you have one, right? But without seeing an XRay of your own, you can't prove it? Or can you? I believe you could.
Take a deep breath. Did you inhale air? How do you know? Can you see it? The Lord's Spirit can not be see at this time, neither can the wind! But just like you can see the effects of the wind as it blows, so too, in like manner can you see the effects of God's Holy Spirit. We see it in creation. We see it in the multitude of CHANGED lives. We see it in Bible prophecy fulfilled, being fulfilled and YET to be fulfilled.
But still, the crux of the matter is FAITH. And without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God!! For he that believes, must believe that GOD IS, and that he is a rewarder of those that seek after him.
Evidence abounds! As a matter of fact there is so much evidence of our Creator in Creation, it makes me laugh out loud, (LOL to us geeks) to hear the doubters go on. Funny, I have friends like me, whose IQ's are in the genius level and they all have unwavering faith in God. So it is not a matter of intelligence but of "calling". You see, no one can come unto the Father unless His Spirit first draws their heart. Some readers here perhaps sense that drawing even as they read. Open your heart to Him and believe!
His Servant,
Bruce
your 'evidence' is nothing but non sequiturs... you idiotic psychopath...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 08:43:05 PM
teetsatan was being as sarcastic as i was you moron... ::)
furthermore... not a single one of you faithers has 'made a case' for your fucking imaginary friend. thus, no one needs to 'make a case against'... you moron.
So you mean to say: your proof that God not exist is acceptable? huh? your really not a moron ;D
and in spite of God said :Your way is not my way, still hard headed. :o your really not an idiot wow. lol bwahahahahahahahaha
so whats wrong if i want to laugh like your father? ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 08:35:23 PM
oh boy i'm going to repeat again the story of thomas. :-\
http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html (http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/04/faith-of-doubting-thomas.html)
Jesus the God the son said it is better to believe first before you see. did you got that?
i'll repeat again this: God's is not our way
http://2praisegod.com/blog/2010/03/gods-ways-are-not-our-ways/ (http://2praisegod.com/blog/2010/03/gods-ways-are-not-our-ways/)
hey you, before you are writing anything here commenting to me, sure to yourself that you had read my previous post so that i am not repeating them again! like wilby >:( got that! >:( >:(
i'll repeat this again... until you present at least a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... words from a book written by men are irrelevant.
if you contend that they are not irrelevant and are proof of your imaginary godfairy then
the iliad is proof of zeus, the poetic edda is proof of odin and the bhagavad gita is proof of vishnu...again... tu stultus es!
Geeze "eatins" Commandments are only seconds old and "W" is already slaughtering them.
"W" you are such a rogue.........
U.P.P.
Interesting story
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/heaven-real-says-neurosurgeon-claims-visited-afterlife-213527063.html
"I'm still a doctor, and still a man of science every bit as much as I was before I had my experience," Alexander writes. "But on a deep level I'm very different from the person I was before, because I've caught a glimpse of this emerging picture of reality. And you can believe me when I tell you that it will be worth every bit of the work it will take us, and those who come after us, to get it right."
Mags
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 08:56:43 PM
So you mean to say: your proof that God not exist is acceptable? huh? your really not a moron ;D
and in spite of God said :Your way is not my way, still hard headed. :o your really not an idiot wow. lol bwahahahahahahahaha
so whats wrong if i want to laugh like your father? ;D
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
and gawd hates liars like you teetsatan... have fun in hell.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 08:57:25 PM
i'll repeat this again... until you present at least a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... words from a book written by men are irrelevant.
if you contend that they are not irrelevant and are proof of your imaginary godfairy then the iliad is proof of zeus, the poetic edda is proof of odin and the bhagavad gita is proof of vishnu...
again... tu stultus es!
I think there is no finish with this just read this one hope it may help:
Quote from: ramset on October 09, 2012, 08:59:35 PM
Geeze "eatins" Commandments are only seconds old and "W" is already slaughtering them.
"W" you are such a rogue.........
U.P.P.
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 09:04:00 PM
I think there is no finish with this just read this one hope it may help:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101209180522AA1AYFa (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101209180522AA1AYFa)
thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
does your gawd believe in atheists and agnostics?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 09:06:30 PM
goes your gawd believe in atheists and agnostics?
i'm just actually referring to the verse. ;D lol
THE VERSE SAYS YOU FOOOL ;D
the verse is simple to analyze and yet they ARE writing a lot of irrelevant bla bla bla. ;D
YOU FOOOOL ;D
YOU FOOOOL ;D
YOU FOOOOL ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 09:11:39 PM
i'm just actually referring to the verse. ;D lol
THE VERSE SAYS YOU FOOOL ;D
your response doesn't address my question whatsoever and thus is a red herring logical fallacy...
is logical fallacy all you know?
there you go being such a good christian again... calling people names.... ::)
does your gawd believe in atheists and agnostics?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 09:14:12 PM
your response doesn't address my question whatsoever and thus is a red herring logical fallacy...
is logical fallacy all you know?
nO!, YOU don't know anything
YOU FOOL ;D
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 09, 2012, 03:49:29 PM
I have given you all evidence time and time again, but you refuse to hear. The "evidence", one of MANY is a changed life. MINE. And BILLIONS of others around the globe through out the last 2 thousand years.
Evidence: Jesus Christ rose from the dead. Historical FACT, and the fact that I have personally met Him, I can also vouch for the truth of the matter.
Evidence: Bible prophecy. There is no God like our God who knows the end from the beginning. Hundreds of bible prophecies fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled. Jesus alone fulfilled EXACTLY, to THE LETTER, over 139 specific Bible prophecies, ranging from his prebirth, birth, life, death and ressurection. The ODDS of this happening by chance, are about the same as the following story:
A man is flying over the Pacific Ocean in a plane. He drops a wedding ring from that plane at an altitude of 10,000 feet. The next day, he goes back in a helicopter, and using a fishing pole with a hook, ensnares that same small finger ring. EVIDENCE.... HA! It is EVERYWHERE!!! But seeing you do not see and hearing you do not hear. ALL of creation speaks of God and His wisdom and power can be seen in everything, so you are WITHOUT EXCUSE, O MAN!
Evidence: Have you ever seen your brain? How do you know that you have one? You have seen and studied other people and creatures brains, but have you physically laid eyes on your own? Do you really know? The "evidence" is that you have one, right? But without seeing an XRay of your own, you can't prove it? Or can you? I believe you could.
Take a deep breath. Did you inhale air? How do you know? Can you see it? The Lord's Spirit can not be see at this time, neither can the wind! But just like you can see the effects of the wind as it blows, so too, in like manner can you see the effects of God's Holy Spirit. We see it in creation. We see it in the multitude of CHANGED lives. We see it in Bible prophecy fulfilled, being fulfilled and YET to be fulfilled.
But still, the crux of the matter is FAITH. And without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God!! For he that believes, must believe that GOD IS, and that he is a rewarder of those that seek after him.
Evidence abounds! As a matter of fact there is so much evidence of our Creator in Creation, it makes me laugh out loud, (LOL to us geeks) to hear the doubters go on. Funny, I have friends like me, whose IQ's are in the genius level and they all have unwavering faith in God. So it is not a matter of intelligence but of "calling". You see, no one can come unto the Father unless His Spirit first draws their heart. Some readers here perhaps sense that drawing even as they read. Open your heart to Him and believe!
His Servant,
Bruce
In response, I would say:
A changed life is not evidence of god. You may well be scared to offend an imaginary god, and you try to follow the parts of the Bible that are not so bad. So, you have changed your life. But it is you who changed it, not a god.
There is no direct evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. The Bible is not good evidence of this, no more than the Greek books are evidence of Zeus and Poseidon.
Please name 3 specific prophecies of Jesus, so I can evaluate this claim. Are you referring to some kind of predictions he made, a la Nostradamus? And was Nostradamus the son of god too?
The things you say about the brain and wind are meaningless. I can say the same about Santa Claus. But it is appropriate you come back to faith, as that is what it takes to believe in god. But this is not a good thing, as faith is defined as belief without evidence. Why is this a good thing, again?
YOUR NOT MORON ;D
YOUR NOT IDIOT ;D
YOUR NOT FUCKER ;D
BUT YOUUUUUUUUUUU FOOOOOOOL ;D LOL BWA HHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAAHHAHAHAAH
from teetsatan's link: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101209180522AA1AYFa
he has now edited it from his post because he is a deceitful liar and a servant of satan.
Psalm 14.1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God". A logical analysis?
Christians often use this bible quote to show (to themselves really, because only they believe in the bible in the first place) that atheists are dumb or must be wrong or simply put, that they are fools. Of course their argument falls into pieces if you don't take the bible as inerrant, but if the bible is inerrant, what does this quote say?
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God." so atheists must be fools right? I'll break it into a syllogism:
The fools say there is no God
Atheist say there is no God
Therefore, Atheists are fools.
Do you see the error there? I sure do. The median term is not wel distributed, and there is no logical connection with it. If you never studied logic in school or you don't remember anything, let me give you an example.
Cars have wheels
airplanes have wheels
therefore, airplanes are cars.
As you can see, just because two entities share the same trait doesn't make them the same thing. That bible quote just says that fools say there is no god. So basically, it says that all fools are atheists, but not that all atheists are fools. It is logically possible for that bible quote to be true, and that smart or even genius atheists exist.
In conclusion, If you quote that, you're not proving anything.
thanks teetsatan for demolishing your own argument... gawd you're ignorant.
OH BOY THE VERSE MADE YOU FOOL ;D LOL
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 09:22:18 PM
OH BOY THE VERSE MADE YOU FOOL ;D LOL
teets, you fucking moron... let me make this abundantly clear to your simple little retarded mind...
none of us have claimed there is no god... we have all been asking you for evidence of this god of yours.
we are saying that "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD"comprende?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 09:19:32 PM
from teetsatan's link: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101209180522AA1AYFa (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101209180522AA1AYFa)
he has now edited it from his post because he is a deceitful liar and a servant of satan.
Psalm 14.1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God". A logical analysis?
Christians often use this bible quote to show (to themselves really, because only they believe in the bible in the first place) that atheists are dumb or must be wrong or simply put, that they are fools. Of course their argument falls into pieces if you don't take the bible as inerrant, but if the bible is inerrant, what does this quote say?
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God." so atheists must be fools right? I'll break it into a syllogism:
The fools say there is no God
Atheist say there is no God
Therefore, Atheists are fools.
Do you see the error there? I sure do. The median term is not wel distributed, and there is no logical connection with it. If you never studied logic in school or you don't remember anything, let me give you an example.
Cars have wheels
airplanes have wheels
therefore, airplanes are cars.
As you can see, just because two entities share the same trait doesn't make them the same thing. That bible quote just says that fools say there is no god. So basically, it says that all fools are atheists, but not that all atheists are fools. It is logically possible for that bible quote to be true, and that smart or even genius atheists exist.
In conclusion, If you quote that, you're not proving anything.
thanks teetsatan for demolishing your own argument... gawd you're ignorant.
THIS IS ACTUALLY A HONEST MISTAKE PICKING A POST WITH YOUR BROTHER IN SATANS ;D LOL
I'M ACTUALLY REFERRING TO THE VERSE AND ITS SIMPLY SAYING YOU FOOOOL ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 09:26:12 PM
THIS IS ACTUALLY A HONEST MISTAKE PICKING A POST WITH YOUR BROTHER IN SATANS ;D LOL
I'M ACTUALLY REFERRING TO THE VERSE AND ITS SIMPLY SAYING YOU FOOOOL ;D
you're an idiot.
and you're about as un christlike as anyone could possibly be... you're no true christian, you are a tool of satan.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 09:25:46 PM
teets, you fucking moron... let me make this abundantly clear to your simple little retarded mind...
none of us have claimed there is no god... we have all been asking you for evidence of this god of yours. we are saying that "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD"
comprende?
OK, we will repeat again: so with our human might and strength and thought you think you can find an evidence in spite of He says my ways are not your ways.
YOU FOOOOL ;D [size=78%] [/size]
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 09:30:54 PM
OK, we will repeat again: so with our human might and strength and thought you think you can find an evidence in spite of He says my ways are not your ways.
YOU FOOOOL ;D [size=78%] [/size]
OK LET ME CLEAR THIS TO YOU, YOU BRILLIANT ONE:
God says TO you: YOU cannot find me with your way that's not my way YOU FOOL ;D [size=78%] [/size]
Were are you! >:( YOU FOOOOOOL ;D
MAGS ISN'T THAT GOOD BUD? HAHAHAHAHAHAH LOL
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 09, 2012, 09:30:54 PM
OK, we will repeat again: so with our human might and strength and thought you think you can find an evidence in spite of He says my ways are not your ways.
YOU FOOOOL ;D [size=78%] [/size]
ok we will repeat again... what you claim "he says" is irrelevant until you prove his existence... idiot.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 09:51:29 PM
ok we will repeat again... what you claim "he says" is irrelevant until you prove his existence... idiot.
;D agin agin agin
We cannot find him scientifically in our eyes because He is spirit but we can feel him.
so don't conclude that there is no God just because you can't see it ok.
your not really an idiot but .............................................................YOU FOOOL ;D
HYPOCRITE! >:(
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 09:25:46 PM
teets, you fucking moron... let me make this abundantly clear to your simple little retarded mind...
none of us have claimed there is no god... we have all been asking you for evidence of this god of yours. we are saying that "THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF GOD"
comprende?
SO NONE OF YOU CLAIMED THERE IS NO GOD, :o BUT YOU ARE ASKING FOR EVIDENCE. :o ???
YOU HYPOCRITE! LIAR!. >:(
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE CONCLUSION OF YOUR FINDINGS? NO GOD?! >:(
YOU FOOOL ;D LOL BWA HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA
OK OK ;)
I'M JUST CARRIED BY THE VERSE THAT MADE YOU FOOL.
THE THING IS AND THE TRUTH IS YOU CANNOT FIND GOD IN YOUR EYES BUT YOU CAN FEEL HIM.
LETS SAY THERE IS A BLIND PERSON, HE CANNOT SEE BUT HE CAN FEEL. AND DO YOU KNOW THAT MUTUAL CAN SEE MORE CLEARLY THAN EYES.
ITS TOO DEEP, YOU CANNOT COMPREHEND, I EXPECT THAT. SORRY. ;D
YOU KNOW WHAT ISOLATED TRANSFORMER IS BETTER THAN YOU ALL ATHEIST BECAUSE THEY CAN FEEL THE MAGNETIC FIELD IN THE SECONDARY
BUT YOU, CANNOT ,
YOU FOOOL JOKE ;D
SO WHAT NOW ?
WERE ARE YOU GREAT DEBATER.
I CANNOT EXPRESS MORE BETTER BUT I WILL STAND MY POINT.
See Tito, Wilby already knows the Bible. He knows what he could do, and what not to do, but he chooses to be the way he is. When someone even mentions God or a religious content, he has an urge to harass and be as belligerent as possible, in order to anger you and others, like 'us' to get us to say and write things that we normally would not say, all so he can ridicule 'us' in front of others by showing our 'bad' side and proceeds to call 'us' hypocrites and say, 'look at the Christians, these are the things Christians say and do".
The best we could do is ignore and let it be. There are plenty of good people to talk to instead, without having to hear the tongue of the devil day in and day out. ;) ;) ;)
If you choose to argue with this fool, then you must beat him in his world of logic, science and barbeque till he feels the heat. Fool. I like that. If its good enough for God, its good enough for me. Wilby, you will now be called 'Fool' , as you fit Gods description well. ;)
He seems to know a lot, but doesnt seem to have any proof at all for his arguments. He demands and expects 'us' to provide solid, substantial proofs, dare we bring up the subject as he is not willing to try for himself to 'see'. ;] He may never try. ;[
Just a lazy fool named Fool. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
SEE YOU LATER DUDE
YOU F..................................................L ;D JOKE LOL
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 06:37:20 PM
I wont let someone lie to make their case that God doesnt exist. If thats the way you guys will play this game, you will simple look like fools, if I have anything to do with it. ;]
Mags
If you use the same kind of analyze in my case, you can find also my point of view about God. I don't negate possibility of his existence but certainly the Bible cannot be taken under consideration; believers say that only existence of the Bible proves Gods existence, that the text in it is infallible. In some of my previous posts I showed that such point is at least somewhat not correct.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 09:01:18 PM
Interesting story
Mags
And coz he does not mention HELL, we can consider it does not exist?
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 10:28:26 PM
He seems to know a lot, but doesnt seem to have any proof at all for his arguments.
exactly what arguments do you think i need to provide proof for?
Quote from: Qwert on October 09, 2012, 10:48:31 PM
If you use the same kind of analyze in my case, you can find also my point of view about God. I don't negate possibility of his existence but certainly the Bible cannot be taken under consideration; believers say that only existence of the Bible proves Gods existence, that the text in it is infallible. In some of my previous posts I showed that such point is at least somewhat not correct.
And coz he does not mention HELL, we can consider it does not exist.
That post of mine was about Wilby, err, Fool. I have no angst with you. This doesnt have to be an anger management class filled with Fools.
See, Wilby says that agnostic is not being in disbelief in god. Yet he seems to degrade others for saying they have found God. Its always some swearing, degrading name substitutes for God and so on. Its all pretty much in this thread. Why is that? For not being in denial of 'a' god, he seems to have no fear, until he meets him. :o Atheists could give a hoot, till they meet him. :o :o
So why all the hatred? What, you see no hatred? Then a duck is a duck and blind is definitely blind. The way I see it, when they made the Exorcist movie, they missed out on a good act over here. ;)
Yep, Wilby got a whole bagga demons. If I were to expand on that, I wouldnt be surprised if he knows it. Practices it. Its not like people 'dont' get into these practices, whether you believe in God or not.
On the "he did not mention Hell" And that would grab your attention more? Where is it stated that if he says he saw Heaven, that it could not be, since he didt see Hell???
You cant make up the rules as you go to substantiate your view over mine. ::) ;)
Hey, the guy could have been dreaming. I know it is not proof for you and I. But it can plant a seed that some may grow, and some no. It could be BS(big story ;]) just to write a book to make some money. I get the arguments. But what if its not? Wilby dismisses in a heartbeat. Are you that quick to deny??
A good bit of us here at OU are here because we persist in believing in something that we have not seen yet. Are you one of 'us' here looking for OU? Or just here for the casual entertainment? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 11:32:23 PM
That post of mine was about Wilby, err, Fool. I have no angst with you. This doesnt have to be an anger management class filled with Fools.
See, Wilby says that agnostic is not being in disbelief in god. Yet he seems to degrade others for saying they have found God. Its always some swearing, degrading name substitutes for God and so on. Its all pretty much in this thread. Why is that? For not being in denial of 'a' god, he seems to have no fear, until he meets him. :o Atheists could give a hoot, till they meet him. :o :o
So why all the hatred? What, you see no hatred? Then a duck is a duck and blind is definitely blind. The way I see it, when they made the Exorcist movie, they missed out on a good act over here. ;)
Yep, Wilby got a whole bagga demons. If I were to expand on that, I wouldnt be surprised if he knows it. Practices it. Its not like people 'dont' get into these practices, whether you believe in God or not.
so not only are you a fucking moron... you're a fucking hypocrite as well. you have called us:
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner
and yet you have the arrogance to bitch, whine and cry when i do to you what your holey babble tells me to do to you... that is to say... i am doing unto you as you have done unto others. you self-righteous, pretentious, sanctimonious, little hypocritical bitch. fuck you... you prick.
ramset can degrade the flying spaghetti monster but i can't say imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? your hypocrisy is exactly the thing that nourishes my disbelief in your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... because if you really believed what you claim you would be so fearful as to never disobey the teachings of your precious jesus. but you don't really believe it and thus you act as you do.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 11:32:23 PM
On the "he did not mention Hell" And that would grab your attention more? Where is it stated that if he says he saw Heaven, that it could not be, since he didt see Hell???
You cant make up the rules as you go to substantiate your view over mine. ::) ;)
Hey, the guy could have been dreaming. I know it is not proof for you and I. But it can plant a seed that some may grow, and some no. It could be BS(big story ;]) just to write a book to make some money. I get the arguments. But what if its not? Wilby dismisses in a heartbeat. Are you that quick to deny??
A good bit of us here at OU are here because we persist in believing in something that we have not seen yet. Are you one of 'us' here looking for OU? Or just here for the casual entertainment? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
and what if the the flying spaghetti monster is real? or zeus? or ra? or odin? you xians dismiss them in heartbeat. fool. what if the movie 'prometheus' is real? are you that quick to deny? fool
defiling gawds is an ancient human tradition magsatan... yours shall not be excepted.
Children dont fight here. Lol :D
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 11:15:18 PM
exactly what arguments do you think i need to provide proof for?
Its you who have the argument. Your argument is that you have a big itchy problem with people that say they know God. And the way you approach them on it is with words that you must need a box of baby wipes for your chin. Did you talk to your mother that way? I bet you find the taste of soap quite comforting.
You do it just to anger your mark. It possible you can get a few 'fools' to follow your leader, but many you will just make stronger in their convictions.
Go ahead. Take your few Fool. Your days are numbered.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 11:50:06 PM
Its you who have the argument. Your argument is that you have a big itchy problem with people that say they know God. And the way you approach them on it is with words that you must need a box of baby wipes for your chin. Did you talk to your mother that way? I bet you find the taste of soap quite comforting.
You do it just to anger your mark. It possible you can get a few 'fools' to follow your leader, but many you will just make stronger in their convictions.
Go ahead. Take your few Fool. Your days are numbered.
Magzimus Leviticus
fuck you you lying bitch... i have nicely asked you for evidence for years... and you have been nothing but a sanctimonious prick the whole time. i have 'eloquently' and patiently exampled for you your failings in logic... i have told you what the logical fallacy is and why it is a logical fallacy and yet you insist on repeating the same asinine arguments over and over and over that were refuted long ago... IN STONE.
http://www.overunity.com/9560/late-harvest-moon/
http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/
http://www.overunity.com/6575/the-god-haters/
you do what you do... saying something stupid and waiting to be called on it so you can claim persecution and then proceed to use the asinine delusion that you are being persecuted to say "it is as jesus foretold in the holey babble!" you're a lunatic.
you don't like what i said? forgive me... oh that's right, you're not a true christian... your true colors are showing.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 09, 2012, 11:42:24 PM
so not only are you a fucking moron... you're a fucking hypocrite as well. you have called us:
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner
Lol. Ya know, the Fool isnt a very good liar. Lest see here, nope, not on this page, hmm not on this page either.
Folks, you read it right here. Ill copy it here also in case of later edits by the Fool.
"so not only are you a fucking moron... you're a fucking hypocrite as well. you have called us:
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner"
Now, the person that can find where I posted any of these words in the Fool's list above, should be awarded a nobel prize.
This is the truths we can expect from the Fool. You have credibility Fool. :o :o :o
Hmm, your easier than I thought. Have a bowl of soap, you might feel better. ;]
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:01:56 AM
Lol. Ya know, the Fool isnt a very good liar. Lest see here, nope, not on this page, hmm not on this page either.
Folks, you read it right here. Ill copy it here also in case of later edits by the Fool.
"so not only are you a fucking moron... you're a fucking hypocrite as well. you have called us:
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner"
Now, the person that can find where I posted any of these words in the Fool's list above, should be awarded a nobel prize.
This is the truths we can expect from the Fool. You have credibility Fool. :o :o :o
Hmm, your easier than I thought. Have a bowl of soap, you might feel better. ;]
Mags
you... as in you xians... as in
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 11:50:06 PM
people that say they know God.
nice ad hominem logical fallacy... what does the words i say have to do with you presenting extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend?
I think the only proof that there is a god is the bible but the bible is made by the prophet which is a human so theres no garantee that all written on it are true. It can only be prove to be true if we can find evidence related to the bible like ghost, angle, noas ark, demon, ten commandments, prophecy, etc.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:01:19 AM
fuck you you lying bitch... i have nicely asked you for evidence for years... and you have been nothing but a sanctimonious prick the whole time. i have 'eloquently' and patiently exampled for you your failings in logic... i have told you what the logical fallacy is and why it is a logical fallacy and yet you insist on repeating the same asinine arguments over and over and over that were refuted long ago... IN STONE.
http://www.overunity.com/9560/late-harvest-moon/ (http://www.overunity.com/9560/late-harvest-moon/)
http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/ (http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/)
http://www.overunity.com/6575/the-god-haters/ (http://www.overunity.com/6575/the-god-haters/)
you do what you do... saying something stupid and waiting to be called on it so you can claim persecution and then proceed to use the asinine delusion that you are being persecuted to say "it is as jesus foretold in the holey babble!" you're a lunatic.
Again, the Fool drops his credibility rating by 10 more points!!! Incredible!!!
A recap of Fools post, for historical purposes....
"fuck you you lying bitch... i have nicely asked you for evidence for years... "
For years? Me? Prove it! ;D Ill be up late to see this. Might not get to sleep at all. Ever. ;)
Keepum coming Fool. One day you will get better. Just need some practice. ;) ;D
Wow, how can anyone believe what you say now Fool. Its like character suicide.
Magzimus Leviticus
you made your bed... now lie in it.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:10:08 AM
Again, the Fool drops his credibility rating by 10 more points!!! Incredible!!!
A recap of Fools post, for historical purposes....
"fuck you you lying bitch... i have nicely asked you for evidence for years... "
For years? Me? Prove it! ;D Ill be up late to see this. Might not get to sleep at all. Ever. ;)
Keepum coming Fool. One day you will get better. Just need some practice. ;) ;D
Wow, how can anyone believe what you say now Fool. Its like character suicide.
Magzimus Leviticus
from november 28, 2011...
http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306737/#msg306737
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 28, 2011, 06:05:35 PM
why the need to talk about your imaginary friend? i wouldn't tolerate a child in here talking about imaginary friends... why should i tolerate it from an allegedly rational, thinking adult? you don't wanna hear me tell you your friend is imaginary? don't talk about him... or provide a single shred of material evidence and/or a logical proof for your imaginary friend. you bet there are more people here that have faith in imaginary godfairies than not... so what? so because i am surrounded by idiots that have no capacity for critical thinking or reason and logic i should do as they do? do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? do you know what an appeal to popularity is?
i never said what you are suggesting i said... ::) how about not putting words in my mouth and instead attempting to answer (scientifically) the simple questions i posed... once again, do you have a single shred of material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy superhero savior friend? i'll wait... ;)
8.7 million results... and how many peer reviewed scientific studies did you find that support prayer working?
imaginary friends are for immature minds... grow up a bit eh?
http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306745/#msg306745
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 28, 2011, 06:53:06 PM
great you have faith in an imaginary friend... why do you feel the need to tell me about him?
yes it would be a laugh... because none of what you would present would qualify as material evidence nor a logical proof. right? ;)
that's because you were busy cherry picking what you wanted to answer and avoiding the rest... ;) i said "serious scientists"... ::) which would involve peer review, wouldn't it?
i am aware of the myths mags... probably more so than you. i did receive my primary education at a private parochial school. however, i embrace logic and reason, so the indoctrination didn't hold... that being said, do you have a single shred of material evidence or a logical proof for this godfairy?
get a billion christians to pray for a single amputee. get them to pray that god regrow that missing limb. this happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of god. i find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting... how typical.
i'll pray to the flying spaghetti monster to save your rotten soul... ;)
edit: i'll pray to the flying spaghetti monster to save your rotten soul too chet... i see you posting, but all it says is 'you are ignoring this user'. :)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 29, 2011, 12:05:03 PM
firstly, with regard to defending and upholding reason, gawd need not be disproven for theism to be shown to be unreasonable. all that needs to be done is to show that belief in a gawd â€" especially a particular gawd â€" has not been substantiated. similarly, one need not demonstrate the non-existence of martian overlords living below the surface of sweden in order to demonstrate that belief in such a proposition is silly.
secondly, regarding live and let live with regard to religion. i can understand how one would come to this conclusion. however, i don’t think this is something we should just be silent about. the reason being that these beliefs are not simply private personal matters. these beliefs really do affect the way individuals, groups and societies think and behave. religion played massive roles in the following things: defending slavery, motivating and justifying murder, abusive and oppression of gays, women, apostates, nonbelievers, believers of other faith, and other races, motivating and/or justifying terrorism, interfering with scientific research (e.g., stem cell research) and polluting scientific education (creationism, intelligent design), discouraging some from seeking or providing medical treatment or preventative treatments for self, children or others, etc. furthermore, our excusing of the unreason that we call religion has opened the floodgates for either types for other opportunistic attempts to exploit people’s trustworthiness and “openmindedness†â€" e.g., the cult of scientology, homeopathy, psychics, overunity and so on.
the idea that religious beliefs are simply personal is 100% untrue. live and let live is hardly justified when religious communities are consistent offenders and consistently affect people in rationally and morally indefensible ways.
and finally, we DO know prayer doesn’t work...
the templeton foundation sponsored a study (american heart journal 151:4, 2006, 934-42) wherein 1802 coronary bypass patients were divided into 3 groups â€" group 1 received prayers for quick recovery and no complications but did not know it, group 2 (control group) received no prayers, and group 3 received prayers and did know it.
the results were clear cut â€" there was NO DIFFERENCE in the recovery of those who received prayers and those who did not.
interestingly, there WAS a difference between groups 1 and 3 however â€" group 3 patients had significantly more complications (performance anxiety?)
now i agree the study is kind of lame... after all recovering from heart surgery happens all the time. i would prefer to see a study like the one i alluded to earlier with an amputee... but you 'faithers' and i both know that will never happen... right?
now fuck off and go to bed you lying, sanctimonious godbot troll. ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:07:19 AM
you... as in you xians... as in
nice ad hominem logical fallacy... what does the words i say have to do with you presenting extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend?
EHHH wrong ansa. And, what? ??? lol
Magzimus Leviticus.
Children i will give a proof that god is exist if u all are stop fighting.
Quote from: Neo-X on October 10, 2012, 12:19:53 AM
Children i will give a proof that god is exist if u all are stop fighting.
great... ::) another moronic godbot armed with another holy hand grenade of non sequiturs... ::)
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
Wilby, you are too emotional! I see you have problems. Consider visiting a specialist? I advise you to stop visiting this thread.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:01:56 AM
Lol. Ya know, the Fool isnt a very good liar. Lest see here, nope, not on this page, hmm not on this page either.
Folks, you read it right here. Ill copy it here also in case of later edits by the Fool.
"so not only are you a fucking moron... you're a fucking hypocrite as well. you have called us:
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner"
Now, the person that can find where I posted any of these words in the Fool's list above, should be awarded a nobel prize.
This is the truths we can expect from the Fool. You have credibility Fool. :o :o :o
Hmm, your easier than I thought. Have a bowl of soap, you might feel better. ;]
Mags
you forgot to address the rest of my post... here it is again... ::)
and yet you have the arrogance to bitch, whine and cry when i do to you what your holey babble tells me to do to you... that is to say... i am doing unto you as you have done unto others. you self-righteous, pretentious, sanctimonious, little hypocritical bitch. fuck you... you prick.
ramset can degrade the flying spaghetti monster but i can't say imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? your hypocrisy is exactly the thing that nourishes my disbelief in your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... because if you really believed what you claim you would be so fearful as to never disobey the teachings of your precious jesus. but you don't really believe it and thus you act as you do.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 11:32:23 PM
On the "he did not mention Hell" And that would grab your attention more? Where is it stated that if he says he saw Heaven, that it could not be, since he didt see Hell???
You cant make up the rules as you go to substantiate your view over mine. ::) ;)
Hey, the guy could have been dreaming. I know it is not proof for you and I. But it can plant a seed that some may grow, and some no. It could be BS(big story ;]) just to write a book to make some money. I get the arguments. But what if its not? Wilby dismisses in a heartbeat. Are you that quick to deny??
A good bit of us here at OU are here because we persist in believing in something that we have not seen yet. Are you one of 'us' here looking for OU? Or just here for the casual entertainment? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
and what if the the flying spaghetti monster is real? or zeus? or ra? or odin? you xians dismiss them in heartbeat. fool. what if the movie 'prometheus' is real? are you that quick to deny? fool
defiling gawds is an ancient human tradition magsatan... yours shall not be excepted.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:15:43 AM
you made your bed... now lie in it.
from november 28, 2011...
http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306737/#msg306737 (http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306737/#msg306737)
http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306745/#msg306745 (http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306745/#msg306745)
now fuck off and go to bed you lying, sanctimonious godbot troll. ::)
Morning Fool. ;]
Wow, you won the nobel prize!!! ;) ;D You did ask me in that thread, but your post was offensive, not anything like you said it was. Others can go read it. Going through that thread, you were a little less profound in offensiveness back then. What happened since then. here is something you said to me there....
"i rarely engage people who have faith in such asinine things. why? it’s pointless. well, it’s not fully pointless, but it’s a massive amount of work and annoyance â€" and divergence from more enjoyable things â€" for usually very little if any perceptible benefit... the best thing really that could be hoped for in having such discussions is that you simply introduce ideas to people and perhaps, over the course of years and new life experiences the person will come back and reconsider the discussion. i do it here because alt energy gets a bad enough name from the con men and hoaxers we don't need religious zealots adding to the problem."
http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306914/#msg306914
I supose you dont hold to those values here in this thread. Fool has time to 'burn'. ;]
In stone.
Night Fool. See ya tomorrow night. ;)
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: Qwert on October 10, 2012, 12:27:46 AM
Wilby, you are too emotional! I see you have problems. Consider visiting a specialist? I advise you to stop visiting this thread.
i see you have the arrogance of a christian. i advise you to keep your advice to yourself unless it is requested from you.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:30:42 AM
Morning Fool. ;]
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave... may your chains rest lightly.
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:29:46 AM
you forgot to address the rest of my post... here it is again... ::)
and yet you have the arrogance to bitch, whine and cry when i do to you what your holey babble tells me to do to you... that is to say... i am doing unto you as you have done unto others. you self-righteous, pretentious, sanctimonious, little hypocritical bitch. fuck you... you prick.
ramset can degrade the flying spaghetti monster but i can't say imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? your hypocrisy is exactly the thing that nourishes my disbelief in your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... because if you really believed what you claim you would be so fearful as to never disobey the teachings of your precious jesus. but you don't really believe it and thus you act as you do.
and what if the the flying spaghetti monster is real? or zeus? or ra? or odin? you xians dismiss them in heartbeat. fool. what if the movie 'prometheus' is real? are you that quick to deny? fool
defiling gawds is an ancient human tradition magsatan... yours shall not be excepted.
"ramset can degrade the flying spaghetti monster but i can't say imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? your hypocrisy is exactly the thing that nourishes my disbelief in your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend..."
How does what Ramset say, become my hypocricy? ??? ??? ;) you really loosing it Fool.
Oh, I see. You believe in the spaghetti monster. Well Fool, I have yet to here of this spaghetti monster god from any place else. You are the first to speak of it from what I know. Well, you have a history of being sarcastic, as you admitted earlier here this evening. So I must have mistakenly thought you were being sarcastic, of which I dont waste much time on. But if this is your god, tell us more about, umm, is it a him, or a her? Or are you just being sarcastic again? Hmmm?
"defiling gawds is an ancient human tradition magsatan... yours shall not be excepted."
A whole big bagga demons. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
haha.. Ill give u one evidence.. Daniel Pomerlou is an old man in young at heart. He believes in god even he suffered from painfull experiment by the military because they want to know how he do such a miracle thing. Daniel has a super natural power. He can run any electric appliciances like motor, light bulb, stop light, rc plane and car, and many more with using only his mind. He said it can only be done if we have a faith to god.
Quote from: Neo-X on October 10, 2012, 12:44:38 AM
haha.. Ill give u one evidence.. Daniel Pomerlou is an old man in young at heart. He believes in god even he tortured by the military because they want to know how he do such a miracle thing. Daniel has a super natural power. He can run any electric appliciances like motor, light bulb, stop light, rc plane and car, and many more with using only his mind. He said it can only be done if we have a faith to god.
that's not evidence... that's an unsubstantiated claim. ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:44:28 AM
"ramset can degrade the flying spaghetti monster but i can't say imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? your hypocrisy is exactly the thing that nourishes my disbelief in your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend..."
How does what Ramset say, become my hypocricy? ??? ??? ;) you really loosing it Fool.
because you didn't chastise him for degrading the god(s) of others yet you get down on me for 'degrading' yours... idiot. you persecute others for their faiths and beliefs yet cry like a bitch when it's returned to you. don't dish it out if you can't take it. idiot.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:44:28 AM
Oh, I see. You believe in the spaghetti monster. Well Fool, I have yet to here of this spaghetti monster god from any place else. You are the first to speak of it from what I know. Well, you have a history of being sarcastic, as you admitted earlier here this evening. So I must have mistakenly thought you were being sarcastic, of which I dont waste much time on. But if this is your god, tell us more about, umm, is it a him, or a her? Or are you just being sarcastic again? Hmmm?
no i don't. the FSM is a type of reductio argument... idiot. try google you idiot...
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:44:28 AM
"defiling gawds is an ancient human tradition magsatan... yours shall not be excepted."
A whole big bagga demons. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
the same demons you have to go around degrading other gods like allah and zeus and odin and the flying spaghetti monster and on and on and on and on... idiot.
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave... may your chains rest lightly.
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:33:31 AM
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave... may your chains rest lightly.
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
Thats not a complete experiment. There is no box for soul. There is no box that says mind readings. There is no box that says God. You know very well what we mean when we say we know God, and you know very well that your loaded tests and questions cant be completed nor answered the way you want them to be. You know their loaded. You know what responses you will get from some and then others. Its a game for you.
What gain is there for you to keep on asking? Are you 'really' looking for 'real' answers? It doesnt feel that way.
Gota git Fool.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 12:54:09 AM
Thats not a complete experiment. There is no box for soul. There is no box that says mind readings. There is no box that says God. You know very well what we mean when we say we know God, and you know very well that your loaded tests and questions cant be completed nor answered the way you want them to be. You know their loaded. You know what responses you will get from some and then others. Its a game for you.
What gain is there for you to keep on asking? Are you 'really' looking for 'real' answers? It doesnt feel that way.
Gota git Fool.
Magzimus Leviticus
now you're claiming the scientific method is 'loaded' against your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? you are a lunatic.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:49:31 AM
because you didn't chastise him for degrading the god(s) of others yet you get down on me for 'degrading' yours... idiot. you persecute others for their faiths and beliefs yet cry like a bitch when it's returned to you. don't dish it out if you can't take it. idiot.
no i don't. the FSM is a type of reductio argument... idiot. try google you idiot...
Oh, I am judge now. Appointed by who? You? have some wah burgers and some frenchcries.
"you persecute others for their faiths and beliefs yet cry like a bitch when it's returned to you. don't dish it out if you can't take it. idiot."
Where have I criticized others faiths and beliefs? I didnt realize you had faith in the spaghetti monster till now. But still, I have not said anything really about your faith in the spaghetti monster. ::) Did I really just write that. lol
Magzimus Leviticus
it's ok to admit you don't know the scientific method or how to apply it mags... really, it's ok. the world won't end, you won't be cast into an eternal lake of fire. reach out your hand and ask for help...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:58:37 AM
now you're claiming the scientific method is 'loaded' against your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? you are a lunatic.
Scientific method proposed by who? You? ??? ;) Good luck with all that. ::)
Magzzzzzz
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 01:07:25 AM
Scientific method proposed by who? You? ??? ;) Good luck with all that. ::)
Magzzzzzz
nice ad hominem... ::) how typical for a xian...
jesus fucking christ mags are you really that fucking mental? that is THE scientific method... it wasn't
proposed by me... idiot.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 01:11:36 AM
nice ad hominem... ::) how typical for a xian...
jesus fucking christ mags are you really that fucking mental? that is THE scientific method... it wasn't
proposed by me... idiot.
Oh.Well why didnt you say so Fool. Are you an idiot for not specifying so? ;) Like, is it on the back of every cerial box that any 5 year old would know that this is THE method?
Still wont work, Fool. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 01:18:37 AM
Oh.Well why didnt you say so Fool. Are you an idiot for not specifying so? ;) Like, is it on the back of every cerial box that any 5 year old would know that this is THE method?
Still wont work, Fool. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
thank you for your blatant admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable or scientific... it's also nice to note that you are so unfamiliar with the scientific method that you can't even recognize it when it is displayed as a graphic right in front of your pinocchio sized nose... ::)
as an aside... it's cereal... ::) as any 5 year old would know. because it's on the back of the box... right in front of their nose ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 12:33:31 AM
fill in the boxes with your methods
That is the correct and acceptable method to prove or disprove any phenomena. But what about the tools? Mind is the only tool to see or realise God. If I purify my mind and enter into deep meditation, I can see god myself but I cannot show you God unless you reach that level. Once you reach that level (the level of Buddha) you will realise god by yourself. If you break open some body's head, you will only see his brain but not mind. How will you conduct experiment on mind?
Quote from: Newton II on October 10, 2012, 01:38:28 AM
But what about the tools? Mind is the only tool to see or realise God.
what evidence do you have to substantiate this latest asinine ad hoc fallacy of yours?
you're full of shit... there are numerous instances in the holey babble that demonstrates otherwise.
Quote from: Newton II on October 10, 2012, 01:38:28 AM
If I purify my mind and enter into deep meditation, I can see god myself but I cannot show you God unless you reach that level. Once you reach that level (the level of Buddha) you will realise god by yourself. If you break open some body's head, you will only see his brain but not mind. How will you conduct experiment on mind?
so you admit you have never realized god... or are you claiming to be "the level of buddha"?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 01:20:21 AM
thank you for your blatant admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable or scientific... it's also nice to note that you are so unfamiliar with the scientific method that you can't even recognize it when it is displayed as a graphic right in front of your pinocchio sized nose... ::)
as an aside... it's cereal... as any 5 year old would know. ::)
First off, where is the logic in my having any interest in a scientific method to show proof of God, If I already know he is there? I know its a tough one for ya Fool. But thats just how it is.
Cerial? Hey, you havnt started a sentence with a Cap, like, ever. But I still know what your saying, even though my one eye is held open with my left hand to type this. zzz
I see your edits of typing mistakes. I go to bust you on it(just for the tally ;] ) and then I see you corrected it before I posted. A recent one was you to your. Deny it? Hypocrite and a Fool. Bigg woopty do. You are the man Fool, the man. And a nobel prize to boot for finding those 'years' of 'cordial' questioning. Not. But hey, what can we expect from a fool. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 01:42:52 AM
First off, where is the logic in my having any interest in a scientific method to show proof of God, If I already know he is there? I know it a tough one for ya Fool. But thats just how it is.
because you're not going to convince me, and a lot of others, without it... idiot.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 01:42:52 AM
Cerial? Hey, you havnt started a sentence with a Cap, like, ever. But I still know what your saying, even though my one eye is held open with my left hand to type this. zzz
if you can't tell where a sentence starts and ends by the punctuation... you're an idiot. there is a not so subtle difference between that and completely misspelling and misusing words... idiot.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 01:42:52 AM
I see your edits of typing mistakes. I go to bust you on it(just for the tally ;] ) and then I see you corrected it before I posted. A recent one was you to your. Deny it? Hypocrite and a Fool. Bigg woopty do. You are the man Fool, the man. And a nobel prize to boot for finding those 'years' of 'cordial' questioning. Not. But hey, what can we expect from a fool. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
again... there is a not so subtle difference between a typo and not having a clue as to how a word is spelled or what context it should be used in... idiot. i demonstrated you to be a liar... and those old posts from 2011 weren't offensive. you think they were because the truth hurts you. idiot.
now... enough of your logical fallacies...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: Newton II on October 10, 2012, 01:38:28 AM
That is the correct and acceptable method to prove or disprove any phenomena. But what about the tools? Mind is the only tool to see or realise God. If I purify my mind and enter into deep meditation, I can see god myself but I cannot show you God unless you reach that level. Once you reach that level (the level of Buddha) you will realise god by yourself. If you break open some body's head, you will only see his brain but not mind. How will you conduct experiment on mind?
See, you immediately make a wrong turn, because you stray from the scientific method. Your observation is that you can reach an altered mental state through meditation, and you see something that you call god. But, you need to go further. Does this god tell you anything concrete you did not already know? How do you know you are not talking to yourself? You need to do testing.
It may seem like it is hopeless; that you cannot demonstrate this to anyone else, but this is not so. You could take two people meditating. Do they hear the same thing. Or you could have a partner place an unknown-to-you object out of sight, and you could as god for knowledge. Maybe god could let you in on a result of a random occurrence in the future. It would not be hard at all to prove something paranormal, if indeed you could reliably be in contact with an all powerful being.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 01:40:07 AM
you're full of shit...
You are full of gas (fart). The mixture of gases you are releasing is polluting the atmosphere. I can smell it from here. Go to toilet and clean up yourself.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 01:40:07 AM
so you admit you have never realized god... or are you claiming to be "the level of buddha"?
I never said that I have realised God. I said I have seen ghosts which attracted me towards spiritualism.
Quote from: Newton II on October 10, 2012, 01:59:01 AM
I never said that I have realised God. I said I have seen ghosts which attracted me towards spiritualism.
i never said that you said you have "realised God" [sic] idiot.
i said, and i quote: "so you admit you have never realized god... or are you claiming to be 'the level of buddha'?"
what evidence do you have for this latest asinine, ad hoc rationalization of yours?
Quote from: Newton II on October 10, 2012, 01:38:28 AM
Once you reach that level (the level of Buddha) you will realise god by yourself.
Quote from: Newton II on October 10, 2012, 01:59:01 AM
snip.. I said I have seen ghosts which attracted me towards spiritualism.
Perhaps you should have been attracted to a medical professional.
Apparitions can be a sign of:
1. drug induced psychosis
2. an inherent psychiatric condition
3. both of the above
"we must conduct research and then accept the results. if they don't stand up to experimentation, buddha's own words must be rejected." tenzin gyatso, 14th dalai lama
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 02:03:05 AM
i never said that you said you have "realised God" [sic] idiot.
Then why did you ask that question? Dogamatix!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 02:03:05 AM
what evidence do you have for this latest asinine, ad hoc rationalization of yours?
Buddha himself is the evidence for that. Buddha is historical character not mythological. There is evidence for his birth and growth in history.
Quote from: Newton II on October 10, 2012, 02:37:18 AM
Then why did you ask that question? Dogamatix!
because you didn't provide a single shred of evidence for EITHER of your latest asinine claims...
what evidence do you have to substantiate this asinine claim of yours?
"But what about the tools? Mind is the only tool to see or realise God."
and what evidence do you have to substantiate this next asinine claim of yours?
"Once you reach that level (the level of Buddha) you will realise god by yourself."
so according to your asinine 'logic'... either you have reached the level of buddha and realized god or you have not... which is it for you? are you admitting to have
not realized god or are you claiming to have reached the level of buddha and realized god?
Quote from: Neo-X on October 10, 2012, 12:44:38 AM
haha.. Ill give u one evidence.. Daniel Pomerlou is an old man in young at heart. He believes in god even he suffered from painfull experiment by the military because they want to know how he do such a miracle thing. Daniel has a super natural power. He can run any electric appliciances like motor, light bulb, stop light, rc plane and car, and many more with using only his mind. He said it can only be done if we have a faith to god.
Here is a guy who is a devoted christian
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339602/#msg339602 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339602/#msg339602)
However, somehow he's unable to excite his device even despite tremendous work he put into it
http://www.overunity.com/12144/eblv-genmotor-design-by-bruce/#.UHUa7FEmH6c (http://www.overunity.com/12144/eblv-genmotor-design-by-bruce/#.UHUa7FEmH6c)
http://www.overunity.com/2300/bruces-tpu-theory-and-experiments-ver-1-2/#.UHUbVVEmH6c (http://www.overunity.com/2300/bruces-tpu-theory-and-experiments-ver-1-2/#.UHUbVVEmH6c)
edit
I guess, he needs Daniel Pomerlou's help coz God can't.
what does the holey babble have to say about liars like tito, magluvin and bruce?
let's take a look at a few examples, chapter and verse.
proverbs 6:16-19
there are six things that the lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
proverbs 12:22
lying lips are an abomination to the lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.
proberbs 19:22
what is desirable in a man is his kindness, and it is better to be a poor man than a liar.
revelation 21:8
but as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
ephesians 4:29
let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.
romans 1:32
though they know god's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
first corinthians 6:9-10
or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of god? do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god.
have fun in hell you deceitful liars... :D
magluvin claims i don't seem to have any proof at all for any of my 'arguments'...
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 10:28:26 PM
He seems to know a lot, but doesnt seem to have any proof at all for his arguments.
and then when i asked him "exactly what arguments do you think i need to provide proof for?" he replied:
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 11:50:06 PM
Its you who have the argument. Your argument is that you have a big itchy problem with people that say they know God.
LMFAO!!! do you see how asinine and nonsensical you are yet mags?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 09, 2012, 09:18:13 PM
In response, I would say:
A changed life is not evidence of god. You may well be scared to offend an imaginary god, and you try to follow the parts of the Bible that are not so bad. So, you have changed your life. But it is you who changed it, not a god.
There is no direct evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. The Bible is not good evidence of this, no more than the Greek books are evidence of Zeus and Poseidon.
Please name 3 specific prophecies of Jesus, so I can evaluate this claim. Are you referring to some kind of predictions he made, a la Nostradamus? And was Nostradamus the son of god too?
The things you say about the brain and wind are meaningless. I can say the same about Santa Claus. But it is appropriate you come back to faith, as that is what it takes to believe in god. But this is not a good thing, as faith is defined as belief without evidence. Why is this a good thing, again?
The PROPHECIES of the Bible have either come to pass, (past tense), are in the process of coming to pass (present tense) or will come to pass (future tense). There are SO MANY prophecies in the Bible but here are a few to wet your appetite. These are "past tense" prophecies, having already seen their fulfillment. And unlike Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, etc, ALL bible prophecies are ACCURATE 100% of the TIME! HA! Evidence... We are just getting warmed up!!!
"Does the Old Testament contain any prophecies about the Messiah?" Yes! The Old Testament contains about
FOUR HUNDRED AND TWENTY-FIVE prophecies about the Messiah. Here is a small sample (in roughly chronological order):
GOD WOULD COME TO EARTH BE BORN AS A HUMAN MALE Isaiah 9:6-7[/size] [6] For
to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And
he will be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and
forever. ...
700 B.C.[/size] Mark 1:1[/size] The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
John 1:1-3, 14[/size] [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God. [2] He was with God in the beginning. [3]
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [14]
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
BORN OF A VIRGIN Isaiah 7:14[/size] Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
700 B.C.[/size] Mattthew 1:20-23[/size] [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22]
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."
FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH Isaiah 37:31[/size] Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
700 B.C.[/size] Matthew 1:1-2, 16[/size] [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of
Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE Isaiah 11:10[/size] In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.
700 B.C.[/size] Isaiah 11:1-5[/size] [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
700 B.C.[/size] Romans 15:12[/size] And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."
Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16[/size] [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [5] ... Obed the father of
Jesse, [6] and
Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID Isaiah 16:5[/size] In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.
700 B.C.[/size] Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16[/size] [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of
King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH Micah 5:2[/size] But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
700 B.C.[/size] Matthew 2:1[/size] After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem
Over the years there have been a number of "Bethlehems" in Israel. At the time of Jesus' birth, Bethlehem Ephrathah, referred to in Matthew as "Bethlehem in Judea", was a village about five miles south of Jerusalem, and there also was a town named Bethlehem about seven miles northwest of Nazareth. (Per footnote Matthew 2:1 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, (c) 1995)
BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE Isaiah 9:1-2[/size] [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan -- [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
700 B.C.[/size] Matthew 2:22-23[/size] [22] But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, [23] and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."
Matthew 4:13-16[/size] [13] Leaving Nazareth, he [Jesus] went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- [14]
to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: [15] "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles -- [16] the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."
HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS Jeremiah 31:15[/size] This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
625 B.C.[/size] Matthew 2:16-18[/size] [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."
COME OUT OF EGYPT Hosea 11:1[/size] When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
725 B.C.[/size] Matthew 2:14-15[/size] [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod.
And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
MISSION WOULD INCLUDE THE GENTILES Isaiah 49:6[/size] he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
700 B.C.[/size] Isaiah 42:1-4, 6[/size] [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
700 B.C.[/size] Matthew 12:14-21[/size] [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17]
This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."
Note that in Biblical usage the Gentiles are often referred to as "the nations."
MINISTRY WOULD INCLUDE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS Isaiah 29:18[/size] In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
700 B.C.[/size] Isaiah 35:5-6a[/size] [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
700 B.C.[/size] Luke 7:20-22[/size] [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' " [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."
MINISTRY WOULD DELIVER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVES Isaiah 61:1-2[/size] [1] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, [2] to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,
700 B.C.[/size] Luke 4:16-21[/size] [16] He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. [17] The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: [18] "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, [19] to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." [20] Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, [21] and
he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." DESPISED AND REJECTED BY MEN Isaiah 53:3[/size] He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
700 B.C.[/size] The Crucifixion narratives in all four Gospels show this prophecy fulfilled.
HATED WITHOUT CAUSE Psalm 69:4[/size] Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.
1000 B.C.[/size] Isaiah 49:7[/size] This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
700 B.C.[/size] John 7:48-49[/size] "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."
John 15:24-25[/size] [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25]
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.' REJECTED BY RULERS Psalm 118:22[/size] The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes.
before 400 B.C.[/size] Matthew 21:42[/size] Jesus said to them,
"Have you never read in the Scriptures:" `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?
John 7:48-49[/size] Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them.
REJECTED BY HIS OWN BROTHERS Psalms 69:8[/size] I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons
1000 B.C.[/size] (Side note: this pretty much kills the Catholic Church's claim that when the Gospels name Jesus' brothers (http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/catholic.htm#Marys_kids) they are talking about His
cousins.)
Mark 3:20-21[/size] [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
John 7:1-5[/size] [1] After this,
Jesus went around in Galilee,
purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3]
Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. [4] No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." [5]
For even his own brothers did not believe in him. BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER Zechariah 11:12[/size] I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
500 B.C.[/size] Matthew 26:14-15[/size] [14] Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests [15] and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.
SILVER RETURNED SILVER USED TO BUY POTTER'S FIELD Zechariah 11:12-13[/size] [12] I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.
500 B.C.[/size] Matthew 27:3-10[/size] [3] When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [4] "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." [5] So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [6] The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." [7] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [8] That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [9] Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, [10] and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
DISCIPLES WOULD SCATTER Zechariah 13:7[/size] "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones."
500 B.C.[/size] Matthew 26:31[/size] Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: " `I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'"
[font=]BEATEN WITH A ROD[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Micah 5:1[/font][font=] Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Mark 15:19[/font][font=] Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]GIVEN VINEGAR AND GALL TO DRINK[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Psalm 69:21[/font][font=] They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1000 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Matthew 27:34[/font][font=] There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Matthew 27:48[/font][font=] Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]HANDS AND FEET NAILED[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Psalm 22:16[/font][font=] Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1000 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]John 20:25[/font][font=] So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]CRUSHED FOR OUR INIQUITIES[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:5-6[/font][font=] [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [6] We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Romans 4: 25[/font][font=] He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1 Corinthians 15:3[/font][font=] [/font][font=](NAB*)[/font][font=] I handed on to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures[/font][font=]
*NAB=New American Bible (not NASB=New American
Standard Bible) [/font]
[font=]SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF OTHERS[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Psalm 69:4[/font][font=] Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore what I did not steal.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1000 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:5-6[/font][font=] [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [6] We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Romans 4: 25[/font][font=] He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1 Corinthians 15:3[/font][font=] [/font][font=](NAB)[/font][font=] I handed on to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]PIERCED FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:5[/font][font=] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Zechariah 12:10[/font][font=] And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]500 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]John 19:33-34; 36-37 [/font][font=][33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [34] Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. [36]
These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," [37] and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]NO BONES BROKEN[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Psalm 22:17[/font][font=] I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1000 B.C.[/font][font=]
[/font]
[font=]Psalm 34:20[/font][font=] he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1000 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]John 19:33; 36a [/font][font=][33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [36a] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]It is important to realize that crucifixion victims' legs
normally were broken. And yet,
a thousand years before the Crucifixion of Jesus, King David foretold that
the Messiah would die in an unusual way. See [/font][font=]Forensic Pathology Report on Jesus[/font] (http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/forensic.htm#unique_death)[font=]. [/font]
[font=]SOLDIERS GAMBLE FOR HIS CLOTHES[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Psalm 22:18[/font][font=] They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]1000 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Matthew 27:35[/font][font=] When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]BRUTALLY KILLED[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:8[/font][font=] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For
he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]See all four Gospels. [/font]
[font=]ASSIGNED A GRAVE WITH THE WICKED[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:9[/font][font=] He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Crucifixion was normally reserved for criminals and people the Romans wanted to "make an example of". As a crucifixion victim, Jesus would have been assigned a grave (if any) with such people. [/font]
[font=]BURIED IN A RICH MAN'S TOMB[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:9[/font][font=] He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death[/font][font=] ... [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Matthew 27:57,59-60[/font][font=] [57] As evening approached,
there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and
placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]THE MESSIAH WOULD RETURN FROM THE DEAD[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:8, 11[/font][font=] [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For [/font]
[font=]he was cut off from the land of the living[/font][font=]; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [11] [/font]
[font=]After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life[/font][font=] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9[/font][font=] [2] There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [5] The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [6] He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `[/font]
[font=]He has risen from the dead[/font][font=] and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]FAMILIAR WITH SUFFERING[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Isaiah 53:3[/font][font=] He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]700 B.C.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]The Crucifixion of Jesus was not an anomoly in how people treated Him:[/font][font=] [/font]
· [/font][/size]
[font=]He was "run out of town" at several places.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Mark 5:14-17[/font][font=] [14] Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. [15] When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. [16] Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon- possessed man--and told about the pigs as well. [17] Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.[/font][font=] [/font]
· [/font][/size]
[font=]People tried to stone Him.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]John 10:31-33[/font][font=] [31]
Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."[/font][font=] [/font]
· [/font][/size]
[font=]Some Jewish leaders conspired to kill Him.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]John 7:1[/font][font=] After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Matthew 12:14[/font][font=] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.[/font][font=] [/font]
· [/font][/size]
[font=]His own family thought He was crazy.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]Mark 3:20-21[/font][font=] [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."[/font][font=] [/font]
· [/font][/size]
[font=]His brothers told Him to go to a festival, expecting He would be killed.[/font][font=] [/font]
[font=]John 7:1-3, 5[/font][font=] [1] After this,
Jesus went around in Galilee,
purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3]
Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do." [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.[/font][font=] [/font]
· [/font][/size]
[font=]His disciples abandoned Him.[/font][font=] [/font]
· [/font][/size]
[font=]He was crucified.[/font][font=][/font]
nice cut and paste WITHOUT noting your sources... so on top of being a pretentious, sanctimonious, mendacious, illogical, unreasonable, unscientific troll you are now a plagiarist too... ::) i took a screenshot so don't bother to edit it now... and have fun in hell...
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 10, 2012, 08:12:27 AM
The PROPHECIES of the Bible have either come to pass, (past tense), are in the process of coming to pass (present tense) or will come to pass (future tense). There are SO MANY prophecies in the Bible but here are a few to wet your appetite. These are "past tense" prophecies, having already seen their fulfillment. And unlike Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, etc, ALL bible prophecies are ACCURATE 100% of the TIME! HA! Evidence... We are just getting warmed up!!!
again you lie!
luke 1:26-38
the angel who appears to mary to foretell the birth of jesus says that jesus will be given the throne of david, that he will reign over the house of jacob forever, and that his kingdom will never end. none of this took place nor can it now be fulfilled.
matthew 16:28, mark 9:1, luke 9:27
jesus says that some of his listeners will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom. this was said almost 2000 years ago. all of his listeners are now dead... yet jesus has not come again in his kingdom. all of the alleged words of jesus put forth in the bible are therefore suspect.
but enough of your lies and bullshit petitio principii logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Bruce
Thank you for taking the time to post this info .
@"W"
Please fill out the chart below ,so I will understand the methods you use to justify your belief in overunity.
Thx
Chet
PS
If not, please explain why you come to "this" forum.
lest your latest reply be nothing but ANOTHER red herring...
to do this (responding with various logical fallacies) would at some level, show you can't hold up your end in a real debate. that would require you to actually look at the evidence and analyze it... and you know, deep down, the dangers of that; you will not do anything that jeopardizes your world view...
Addendum
"W"
Based on your "requirements"
I capitulate
The Condition being that you show how you apply the same Terms to your reasons for pursuing OU research.
Quote from: ramset on October 10, 2012, 08:31:10 AM
Bruce
Thank you for taking the time to post this info .
@"W"
Please fill out the chart below ,so I will understand the methods you use to justify your belief in overunity.
Thx
Chet
PS
If not, please explain why you come to "this" forum.
i asked you first... and thus your latest reply is nothing but ANOTHER red herring... ::)
you do this (responding with various logical fallacies) because at some level, you know that you can't hold up your end in a real debate. that would require you to actually look at the evidence and analyze it... and you know, deep down, the dangers of that; you will not do anything that jeopardizes your world view...
but... thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or your imaginary demonfairy.
i requested this of you
33 pages ago... that's THIRTY THREE PAGES AGO and you have evaded and avoided answering since then. god sees what you are doing ramsatan... and he is not pleased.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on September 16, 2012, 05:20:45 PM
chetty, vinreet, tito the clown or any other of you faithers that consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review.
thank you for your cooperation.
nota bene: failure or refusal to present said methods will constitute another tacit admission that you have neither extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 10, 2012, 08:12:27 AM
The PROPHECIES of the Bible have either come to pass, (past tense), are in the process of coming to pass (present tense) or will come to pass (future tense). There are SO MANY prophecies in the Bible but here are a few to wet your appetite. These are "past tense" prophecies, having already seen their fulfillment. And unlike Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, etc, ALL bible prophecies are ACCURATE 100% of the TIME! HA! Evidence... We are just getting warmed up!!!
Are you serious? You are using one book of fiction as evidence for the prophecies of another. This would be like claiming Harry Potter is real because things that were predicted in Book 1 occurred in Book 2.
But as long as you are looking up things, why don't you look up contradictions in the Bible. It's also a very long list.
But at the end of the day, do you really believe that stupid story about Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden and that talking snake? And because of this we are all sinners, every last one of us, and some guy has to be tortured to death on a cross to make up for Eve eating the damn apple. And what is so wrong about knowing good from evil? Aren't we supposed to know what is right and what is wrong? This is the original sin? How weak. This is just a fairy tale, and not a very good one.
"W"
Based on your "requirements"
I capitulate
The Condition being that you show how you apply the same Terms to your reasons for pursueing OU research.
Thx
Chet
Ps
Top of page.
Quote from: ramset on October 10, 2012, 09:17:32 AM
"W"
Based on your "requirements"
I capitulate
The Condition being that you show how you apply the same Terms to your reasons for pursueing OU research.
Thx
Chet
Ps
Top of page.
i reject your conditions... present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd... or fuck off.
Quote from: ramset on October 10, 2012, 09:17:32 AM
"W"
Based on your "requirements"
I capitulate
The Condition being that you show how you apply the same Terms to your reasons for pursueing OU research.
Thx
Chet
Ps
Top of page.
Wilby is mostly a troll, not an OU researcher, so that's not something you're going to get. Though he is right about the Jesus stuff, but really, that's just picking low lying fruit.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 10, 2012, 09:40:38 AM
Wilby is mostly a troll, not an OU researcher, so that's not something you're going to get. Though he is right about the Jesus stuff, but really, that's just picking low lying fruit.
i'm as much of a troll as you are... ::) and as much of OU researcher as you are... ::)
you sound like a christian... proclaiming judgment and other asinine bloviations.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 09:49:21 AM
i'm as much of a troll as you are... ::) and as much of OU researcher as you are... ::)
you sound like a christian... proclaiming judgment and other asinine bloviations.
I will agree that we are equally trolls and equally OU researchers.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 09:49:21 AM
i'm as much of a troll as you are... ::) and as much of OU researcher as you are... ::)
you sound like a christian... proclaiming judgment and other asinine bloviations.
Although I submit you need to work on your subtlety if you want to elevate to the higher echelons of trolling.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 10, 2012, 10:07:49 AM
Although I submit you need to work on your subtlety if you want to elevate to the higher echelons of trolling.
not interested... ::)
Does "Pottymouth" strengthen the arguement?
I forget .......?
Anyone??
The rules of engagement between adults with strong points of view??
Something about Hollering ...swaring ....punching......biting...
as it applies to the "strength of an arguement"
Gotta double check that one in my "purging Logical fallacy" rules book.
Thx
Chet
HHMMmmmm
Looks like it stopped raining ...
back to work...
I think an impasse has been reached, so I am out. You theists are now using dogma and Bible verses as evidence, and there is no way to go from there, if that is what you honestly accept as proof for your belief system.
Bruce, I hope you someday see reason. See you, guys.
Why this topic matters to me
Truthfully ,it is a big problem for more than the obvious reasons.
I have grown to use "faith"[a persons professed faith] as an initial tool for evaluating a person at the ground floor.
Their Core beliefs should be identifiable in their "church/religious belief".
This is why I ask so many questions here about Beliefs that I don't understand or are outside my Frame of reference.
When you have to trust a stranger ,you try to get as much info as fast as possible to evaluate the "risk" to yourself and others .
[others here being "fellow experimenters"]
When I speak to almost any person of Faith I can usually count on their
"commitment to doing the right thing" or atleast Intent to do so.
When I speak to men with no clear definable belief system,,the process becomes much more involved.
When your life or the life of others can depend on your Decisions.
Trust becomes Oh so important.
Of course ,the flaws in this method can start to show themselves pretty quickly,where a persons claimed Core beliefs don't jive with how they act [the Tito effect].
Plus I have no info on the followers Of FSM [pasta entities]
We have a system of forming relationships One person at a time [very small trusted groups] very slowly.
Open source is the ultimate goal for all here ,how to get there safely,and competently [no sneaky creeps just looking to steal info and run to the patent office ]
during a vetting process can be greatly expedited by working with a larger
trusted group.
how to establish a method for accomplishing this?
I don't like secret handshake clubs, I absolutely love Open Source.... not to be denied By any sect,politics, religion, denomination ,organization or institution ,just finding men of like mind willing to be completely Selfless....
You want Change ,Be that change.
Thats why I stuck it out here ..........
Later
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on October 09, 2012, 08:42:19 PM
Gwandau
Thank you for your responce ,as well as the respectful way you carry yourself.
I appreciate your honesty ,and recognize your desire to have men enjoy what you have found to be "aware".
I myself Have struggled with understanding,I personally Fear this search you embarked on ,and I suppose I cannot explain it ,except to say ,I would fear for my sanity.
I have seen men Go to places on these "searches" and never come back .And the place they end up is not as you describe ,it is torment.
I was free'd of this torment by My complete surrender of my own will,and an agreement I made to serve. it has not been easy, a lot of the things some of you fellows are saying have troubled me for quite some time .
So I personally walk by Faith With the knowledge that where I came from can not compare with where I am now.
And I help others get free from their torment.
One day at a time asking questions and Paying attention..........
I like you Gwandau ,you have Character and are a very smart and genuine man with good sincere intentions.
I think you will find It won't be so bad sharing the planet with me!
Thx
Chet
Ps some people here don't care about the Tormented or the suffering,they think its not their problem..........
Chet,
Thank you for your kind response, and I certainly enjoy sharing this planet with anyone dedicated to love peace and understanding, no matter what point of view.
I think it is all about letting everyone try his own road without imposing our own maps. To me that is simple respect, and also the only way to bridge true communication. The more unconditionally we execute defence of our own point of view, the loser is the foundation upon which we stand. The more eager the proselyte, the more hidden doubts deep within.
Your open minded and humble approach too things quite alien to your own way of experiencing reality tells me you are a man with a genuine and hard owned spiritual experience. You also seem to have the ability to differ between a personal truth and a scientific truth, two totally different areas of knowledge, which unfortunately have been subject to great confusion in this thread.
There is absolutely no way to compare values of these two altogether totally different belief systems. As a scientist I am fully aware of the relative aspect of all observed scientific truths, there is not one single permanent physical truth, everything is observations in relation to other observations. But these non permanent truths are agreed upon by the scientific methods and thereafter accepted as so called facts, at least until revised. As you know this is how science works.
A personal truth is just as relative as a scientific truth but on an entirely different level, and the two levels are just that: two levels. The never meet, yet they exist in the same paradigm.
What is fundamentally wrong with this topic is the ambition to subject a non physical phenomenon to the scientific methodology. And all of us seem to have fallen into this trap, believers as well as non believers. A personal truth like a spiritual experience have no place in the scientific arena, and it is the very moment such an experience are dogmatized into shallow sci fi stories of the past that they are becoming prey to the scientific blood hound.
As far as I am concerned, a spiritual experience is something you keep for yourself inside your heart, a power charge bigger than life, keeping you surfing on the right side of the wave so to speak.
Anybody too eager to share his belief alerts a warning lamp inside me, and anyone starting to cite second or third hand stories as the "OnlyTruth" alerts a loud howling siren. I have come to understand that such people often have a quite shallow fundament behind their belief, thus obviously lacking a deep and hard owned experience behind their approach.
I am not sure everybody will understand this, and the fault is of cource mine being unable to convey this elucidating enough, but what I am trying to say is that on the scientific level is our very intimidated and emotionally upset WilbyInebriated fully correct. You cannot prove anything non physical with physical methodology.
On the other hand, the scientific method is not aimed at the level of the consciousness phenomenon, where the spiritual experiences reside, thus it will be totally impossible to apply the scientific method in this area.
Mind is physical and will be mapped and connected electronically in a near future. The senses and their interfaces are fully within the science domain. But pure consciousness is a non physical and will always be outside the reach of science. Gwandau
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 06:19:30 AM
magluvin claims i don't seem to have any proof at all for any of my 'arguments'...
and then when i asked him "exactly what arguments do you think i need to provide proof for?" he replied:
LMFAO!!! do you see how asinine and nonsensical you are yet mags?
Wow. It took you all day to come up with that? Pure genius. ::) ;) I think everyone should give a big hand to Fool for his compassion and wisdom. ::) ::) Keep up the, uh, good works? ;)
All sarcasm. ;D Since it is used a lot here. :o :o ;) ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: ramset on October 10, 2012, 12:54:08 PM
how to establish a method for accomplishing this?
I don't like secret handshake clubs, I absolutely love Open Source.... not to be denied By any sect,politics, religion, denomination ,organization or institution ,just finding men of like mind willing to be completely Selfless....
You want Change ,Be that change.
There is an easy way to accomplish this:
UNMASK YOURSELF. Show as much info about you as possible. Like in a Resume of a Job Application. Unfortunately, otherwise you are just seen as untrusted to me.
edit
What I know about you? that you are a male and have some (mysterious) connections with eastcoast USA NY- HARTFORD CT
Hi good morning to everyone :D
PEACE BE WITH YOU :-*
WE HAVE HURT EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD OR OTHER THREAD SHARING EACH AND EVERY ONES PRINCIPLE WITH ANGRY.
NOW I THINK SINCE WE THROWN A LOT OF DIFFERENT GOOD AND BAD WORDS ALREADY THEN I THINK ITS TIME TO GIVE A PEACE OFFERING TO EVERYONE. :)
EVEN LET SAY ATHEIST ARE CORRECT OR WE ARE THE CORRECT ONE, I THINK IT IS A GENERAL RULE TO HAVE A GOOD HEART TO EVERYONE :)
NOW THEN: I WILL TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO BE THE FIRST ONE TO SAY I'M SORRY, REALLY SORRY OR I APOLOGIZE TO ANY WORDS THAT MADE YOU HURT EVEN NOT IN THIS THREAD, SO SORRY. :'(
NOW IN OU TOPIC:
THOUGH I'M LOOK LIKE A PREACHER, I CANNOT GIVE THE REAL ONE THAT I HAVE, CAUSE I AM RESERVING THAT FOR MY
CHILDREN AND I HOPE AND BELIEVE THAT THE LORD UNDERSTANDS ME FOR THAT. :)
I'M NOT PERFECT EVERYONE, PLEASE CONSIDER THAT LITTLE THING FOR ME :)
THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND HAVE A BLESSED DAY TO ALL OF YOU
MERRY CHRISTMAS ;)
TITO L. ORACION :)
Q
Not sure I explained this properly,You do understand I ask Nothing of you
or anyone else here.
My comment regarding persons of faith ,was nothing more than a starting point for strangers to have a very basic understanding of what to expect
from each other ,typically well established shared beliefs or standards that usually hold them to certain morals and hopefully trustworthy character traits.
Point being you have a ruff idea on what to expect . where as persons
that do not abide by such "beliefs" require much more time and effort to
define those Core values that would make you comfortable sharing
very powerful things like OU devices and such.
Being from NYC [and yes Hartford CT also] I meet lots and lots of people from all over the world , all nationalities, races, beliefs,religions ,types and flavors.
For the most part good folks ,However when you start to speak about helping others less fortunate than yourself ,it quickly becomes a line in the sand
people of Faith and "non believers" definately react differently.
-----
for me when I look to work together with total strangers on these sensative OU things outside of the forum, I typically go for help where I am comfortable with the folks involved ,"faithers" have never let me down.
Beside the fact that most Builders that I know are men of faith.
Just an observation nothing more.......
Thx
Chet
PS
Teetsla
Thank God my Children Don't need Your OU device to survive.
Good luck explaining your Case to the children that do !
Quote from: ramset on October 10, 2012, 09:17:42 PM
PS
Teetsla
Thank God my Children Don't need Your OU device to survive.
Good luck explaining your Case to the children that do !
:)
OH COMMON CHET
even i don't see you, i can really feel that you're angry,
sorry buddy :-*
peace be with you :-*
i believe that i have given a lot of info to help others and to open their minds for something.
That only thing, that one thing for my children only, please understand. :-\
Quote from: Gwandau on October 10, 2012, 05:42:41 PM
but what I am trying to say is that on the scientific level is our very intimidated and emotionally upset WilbyInebriated fully correct.
don't be asinine... i'm not emotionally upset. i don't suffer fools. and intimidated? by what? an imaginary godfairy? how stupid can you be?
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 06:31:28 PM
Wow. It took you all day to come up with that? Pure genius. ::) ;) I think everyone should give a big hand to Fool for his compassion and wisdom. ::) ::) Keep up the, uh, good works? ;)
All sarcasm. ;D Since it is used a lot here. :o :o ;) ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave... may your chains rest lightly.
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 10:24:34 PM
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave... may your chains rest lightly.
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
I would like to see a link to a site that where your 'boxes' came from. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 10:38:16 PM
I would like to see a link to a site that where your 'boxes' came from. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
i'd like to see a cogent response from you... idiot. ::)
anyways... that chart doesn't apply to you magsidiot... as you have repeatedly admitted to NOT subscribing to logic, reason or the scientific method. ::)
here's your sign:
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 10:40:47 PM
i'd like to see a cogent response from you... idiot. ::)
Its you who is presenting a so called 'The' scientific method. I would like to read more about it before commenting any further.
If its 'The' method, then there must be some wealth of information behind it. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 10:49:21 PM
anyways... that chart doesn't apply to you magsidiot... as you have repeatedly admitted to NOT subscribing to logic, reason or the scientific method. ::)
here's your sign:
If it is not for me, then why have you been repeatedly presenting it as such? Hmm? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/TheScientificMethod.shtml
now fuck off idiot... ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 10:53:14 PM
If it is not for me, then why have you been repeatedly presenting it as such? Hmm? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
because i knew you would respond with nothing but logical fallacies as you always do... i wanted you to publicly make an ass out of yourself. and being you are so predictable you didn't disappoint...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 10:54:46 PM
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/TheScientificMethod.shtml (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/TheScientificMethod.shtml)
now fuck off idiot... ::)
Nice try Fool. There is nothing but another pic of 'The' boxes you have already shown. :o
I see. You dont want me to find what, when or who devised the method? ::) ;)
Your boxes are not relevant. :P ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 11:02:11 PM
Nice try Fool. There is nothing but another pic of 'The' boxes you have already shown. :o
I see. You dont want me to find what, when or who devised the method? ::) ;)
Your boxes are not relevant. :P ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
google 'scientific method' and then click on the images link in the left side menu... ::) you fucking moron.
because i knew you would respond with nothing but logical fallacies as you always do... i wanted you to publicly make an ass out of yourself. and being you are so predictable you didn't disappoint...
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 11:02:11 PM
Nice try Fool. There is nothing but another pic of 'The' boxes you have already shown. :o
I see. You dont want me to find what, when or who devised the method? ::) ;)
Your boxes are not relevant. :P ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
quod erat demonstrandum...
you don't know what, when or who devised the scientific method? LMFAO!!! go back to elementary school you fool!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 11:01:50 PM
because i knew you would respond with nothing but logical fallacies as you always do... i wanted you to publicly make an ass out of yourself. and being you are so predictable you didn't disappoint...
Lol. That is what you want your 'audience' to believe? ;D ;D Epic fail.
You cant fool me Fool. Your posts dig yourself deeper and deeper. ;)
Ill just chill and let you dig. lol Your audience awaits. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave... may your chains rest lightly.
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 11:05:07 PM
because i knew you would respond with nothing but logical fallacies as you always do... i wanted you to publicly make an ass out of yourself. and being you are so predictable you didn't disappoint...
quod erat demonstrandum...
you don't know what, when or who devised the scientific method? LMFAO!!! go back to elementary school you fool!
Elementary my dear Fool.
I asked you for a link with more info on 'The' boxes and you sent me to a page with a copy of the pic. No info at all. Your Fool is showing. ;]
Did you not understand my post? Oh, they were teaching you about 'The' boxes in elementary. How could you understand me. Your stuck in the boxes. ;)
If you keep beating that bush, it just might begin to burn. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 11:17:38 PM
Elementary my dear Fool.
I asked you for a link with more info on 'The' boxes and you sent me to a page with a copy of the pic. No info at all.
liar... god hates liars...
you said and i quote:
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 10:38:16 PM
I would like to see a link to a site that where your 'boxes' came from. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
i gave you the link to where that image came from... now fuck off you moron...
i'm not your mommy magsidiot, nor am i going to hold your hand and explain things to you.
go back to elementary school... you should have paid more attention.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 11:11:05 PM
you refuse to reason and thus are a bigot... you cannot reason and thus are a fool... you dare not reason and thus are a slave... may your chains rest lightly.
fill in the boxes with your methods mags... i'm giving you ANOTHER opportunity to demonstrate your integrity by applying the logic and reason you insist you have... below is the scientific method. demonstrate your godfairy.
lol deja vu Ive seen this before. YES!! Back a few posts!!. The exact same thing!!
Incredible!!!!
Fool
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
liar... god hates liars... you said and i quote:i gave you the link to where that image came from... now fuck off you moron...
i'm not your mommy magsidiot, nor am i going to hold your hand and explain things to you.
go back to elementary school... you should have payed more attention.
Ah, but you neglect to show my post after that one where I show interest in the source of 'The' boxes so that I could learn more about it.
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339848/#msg339848
And after that post, you post a link to the pic..
Fool says...
"liar... god hates liars..."
Thank you for your tacit admission that God exists. :o ;) ;D Shall we consider everything that you say as sarcasm?
I havnt lied here yet, Fool. In stone. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
i'm not your mommy magsidiot, nor am i going to hold your hand and explain things to you.
go back to elementary school... you should have paid more attention.
Not all of us were fortunate enough to attend the school of Satan and Demonics. I suppose you are the lucky one? ??? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 11:19:13 PM
go back to elementary school... you should have paid more attention.
Ok Fool. This is your big shot at some small tad of credibility. ;)
Show me the 'elementary' school book that shows 'The' boxes you have shown. Can ya do that Fool? Hmm? Or was that a lie? Hypocrite? ;) Big time.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 10, 2012, 11:30:03 PM
I havnt lied here yet, Fool. In stone. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
yes you have... and it's in stone. you didn't ask me for anything more than a link and then when told where to go you added further qualifications... you're such a deceitful liar and god sees what you are doing. have fun in hell.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 09, 2012, 11:32:23 PM
See, Wilby says that agnostic is not being in disbelief in god.
another example of your lies... hey liar, where did i say this?
but enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 12:03:23 AM
yes you have... and it's in stone. you didn't ask me for anything more than a link and then when told where to go you added further qualifications... you're such a deceitful liar and god sees what you are doing. have fun in hell.
You are truly amazing Fool. Here is my post specifying more info
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339848/#msg339848
What part of "I would like to read more about it before commenting any further.
If its 'The' method, then there must be some wealth of information behind it." do you not understand Fool? You didnt post the link till 4 min later. In stone.
Hypocrite Fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 12:11:48 AM
You are truly amazing Fool. Here is my post specifying more info
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339848/#msg339848
What part of "I would like to read more about it before commenting any further.
If its 'The' method, then there must be some wealth of information behind it." do you not understand Fool? You didnt post the link till 4 min later. In stone.
Hypocrite Fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
what part of "i'd like to see a cogent response from you... idiot. ::)" didn't you understand?
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 12:15:30 AM
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
More deja vu? And only 2 posts apart. Yep, just like the one 2 posts behind it.
So funny. Fool just posted a few posts back showing another set of 'The' boxes, saying that the one above that has been repeatedly shown over and over, was over my head. So now he presents it as if he never said that. ??? ;) Very foolish Fool.
A great 'subject changer' though. Nice try. For a Fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 12:23:12 AM
More deja vu? And only 2 posts apart. Yep, just like the one 2 posts behind it.
So funny. Fool just posted a few posts back showing another set of 'The' boxes, saying that the one above that has been repeatedly shown over and over, was over my head. So now he presents it as if he never said that. ??? ;) Very foolish Fool.
A great 'subject changer' though. Nice try. For a Fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 12:15:30 AM
what part of "i'd like to see a cogent response from you... idiot. ::) " didn't you understand?
I told you here
"I would like to read more about it before commenting any further. "
In that post I wrote 4 min before you posted the link of a picture. What part of "before commenting any further" do you not understand? ;) Must be a Fool.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 12:27:31 AM
I told you here
"I would like to read more about it before commenting any further. "
In that post I wrote 4 min before you posted the link of a picture. What part of "before commenting any further" do you not understand? ;) Must be a Fool.
Magzimus Leviticus
and i told you "i'd like to see a cogent response from you... idiot. ::)"
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
I know why you wont provide a source for the subject of 'The" boxes. Its because you dont want me to read it and pick it apart like the garbage that it is. ;) Yeah, dats da ticket. Fool is scared to let me at that pile of Foolishness. ;)
I already have my proof as do many others. You have been told how you can prove it for yourself but I suppose you refuse to try. But, you will never get it if it is just proof you are really looking for. I know you understand all that. But you are a practicing fool.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 12:37:28 AM
I know why you wont provide a source for the subject of 'The" boxes. Its because you dont want me to read it and pick it apart like the garbage that it is. ;) Yeah, dats da ticket. Fool is scared to let me at that pile of Foolishness. ;)
I already have my proof as do many others. You have been told how you can prove it for yourself but I suppose you refuse to try. But, you will never get it if it is just proof you are really looking for. I know you understand all that. But you are a practicing fool.
Magzimus Leviticus
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 12:42:40 AM
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
And den?
why are you asking me to do your due diligence for you?
is it because you are lazy?
is it because you are a godtard?
is it because you are willfully disobeying your 'holy' scripture?
a guide to the scientific method for elementary children can be download below... you fucking moron.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 12:51:01 AM
why are you asking me to do your due diligence for you?
It is you that is looking for answers, not me. If you want me to play your fill in the box game, then show me the rules.
If not then, I guess you will be cutting and pasting all night long.
For someone that claims to be reasonable, I dont see it. And Im not the only one reading here. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 12:56:57 AM
It is you that is looking for answers, not me. If you want me to play your fill in the box game, then show me the rules.
first... i'm not "looking for answers" you lying asshole. i am asking YOU to substantiate YOUR asinine claims COGENTLY... and i've been doing this for over 33 pages now... ::)
so you really have no idea of the how the scientific method is applied or what constitutes it?
LMFAO!!!
you are a godtard... ::)
a guide to the scientific method for elementary children can be download below... you fucking moron.
Elementary Education: The Scientific Method Worksheet
http://k6educators.about.com/od/sciencelessonplans/qt/scimethodws.htm
What is the Scientific Method?
http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_What_Scientific/
Biology4Kids.com: Scientific Studies: Scientific Method
http://www.biology4kids.com/files/studies_scimethod.html
WatchKnowLearn.com: Application of the Scientific Process
http://www.watchknowlearn.org/Video.aspx?VideoID=23316&CategoryID=1570
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 12:51:01 AM
a guide to the scientific method for elementary children can be download below... you fucking moron.
That was in 2007. That would make me the first 41 yr old in elementary school. Fool
Your infallible method is not a proper method to prove God you silly fool. You know this.
You use this as a kind of trap. Its a loaded proposition.
This is how I know your not really looking for proof of God. You are out to confuse and disrupt. A fool as the Holy Bible says.
You act like just because not one soul here has not taken up your proposal, that you win? Where is the logic and reason behind that? We know its loaded, and you know its loaded
Do as you will Fool. You are very popular, emm, with your self. You even tussle with some of your patrons here. Just a lonely Fool. :'(
What a shame. I would think demons had better game than this. ;) I was wrong. ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 01:13:21 AM
That was in 2007. That would make me the first 41 yr old in elementary school. Fool
Your infallible method is not a proper method to prove God you silly fool. You know this.
You use this as a kind of trap. Its a loaded proposition.
This is how I know your not really looking for proof of God. You are out to confuse and disrupt. A fool as the Holy Bibles says.
You act like just because not one soul here has not taken up your proposal, that you win? Where is the logic and reason behind that? We know its loaded, and you know its loaded
Do as you will Fool. You are very popular, emm, with your self. You even tussle with some of your patrons here. Just a lonely Fool. :'(
What a shame. I would think demons had better game than this. ;) I was wrong. ;D
Mags
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 01:08:23 AM
Elementary Education: The Scientific Method Worksheet
http://k6educators.about.com/od/sciencelessonplans/qt/scimethodws.htm (http://k6educators.about.com/od/sciencelessonplans/qt/scimethodws.htm)
What is the Scientific Method?
http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_What_Scientific/ (http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_What_Scientific/)
Biology4Kids.com: Scientific Studies: Scientific Method
http://www.biology4kids.com/files/studies_scimethod.html (http://www.biology4kids.com/files/studies_scimethod.html)
WatchKnowLearn.com: Application of the Scientific Process
http://www.watchknowlearn.org/Video.aspx?VideoID=23316&CategoryID=1570 (http://www.watchknowlearn.org/Video.aspx?VideoID=23316&CategoryID=1570)
Well there ya go Fool. Wasnt that hard was it? Now, show me that this method can prove or disprove God? I already gave you my opinion on it. Filling those boxes could not provide a positive or negative answer in your so called quest. only a fool would take you up on that. You should know this Fool. ;)
How about you fill those boxes with spaghetti and monster. Does the method prove you are a fool? Or does the last box pump out your beloved lasagna? ::)
I do understand that schools are teaching kids songs of Obama instead of the pledge of allegiance. I understand that more and more laws are being set in opposition to religions.
I also understand that you are a fool. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 01:27:42 AM
Well there ya go Fool. Wasnt that hard was it? Now, show me that this method can prove or disprove God? I already gave you my opinion on it. Filling those boxes could not provide a positive or negative answer in your so called quest. only a fool would take you up on that. You should know this Fool. ;)
How about you fill those boxes with spaghetti and monster. Does the method prove you are a fool? Or does the last box pump out your beloved lasagna? ::)
I do understand that schools are teaching kids songs of Obama instead of the pledge of allegiance. I understand that more and more laws are being set in opposition to religions.
I also understand that you are a fool. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
no, it wasn't all that hard. ::) all you had to do was google 'scientific method for elementary school student'... but you're too much of a fucktard to manage that... ::)
and now you're fucking lying again about a "positive or negative answer"... ::) you know damn well it's not going to be "positive" and that's why you continue with your asinine logical fallacies... fucking godtard... ::)
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
or... grow the fuck up and admit that the "probability of god" via the scientific method is slim to none.
Quote from: ramset on October 10, 2012, 09:17:42 PM
Q
Not sure I explained this properly,You do understand I ask Nothing of you
or anyone else here.
You explained properly. My suggestion is for all forum users. When I'm hiding my identity, I feel somehow nonpunishable, I know that then my intentions are not clear to others at least at first contact.
If I want to change this, I must start from myself so I can stand for everything I say. When somebody shows my errors I'm ready for POLITE discussion. Unmasking through showing the true identity, as full as possible - makes miracles.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 01:28:20 AM
no, it wasn't all that hard. ::) all you had to do was google 'scientific method for elementary school student'... but you're to much of a fucktard to manage that... ::)
No, all you had to do was post the link. And you did, as I asked. :P I am not a fool. ;]
I and others have already, pages ago, stated that your magic boxes are not good enough to prove God.
But you persist like a fool.
Well, I gota get some shuteye. If you wish to repost anything, anything at all, feel free. ;)
Maybe someone, some day will take you up on your proposition. Good luck with all that.
Mags
This message is for Tito and for Mags.
Please stop calling people FOOL. We are to bless and to curse not. We expect curses and blasphemies from some of those who presently are in darkness, for that is what is in their heart. But we who are of the light must refrain from such. For but the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we too would still be as they are. ;) Thank you both. Your heart is in the right place, but do not allow your emotion to rule you, nor frustration to overtake you. Stop, drop and pray, when you feel yourself getting frustrated with some of the individuals on this board.
Walking with Him,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 01:49:50 AM
This message is for Tito and for Mags.
Please stop calling people FOOL. We are to bless and to curse not. We expect curses and blasphemies from some of those who presently are in darkness, for that is what is in their heart. But we who are of the light must refrain from such. For but the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, we too would still be as they are. ;) Thank you both. Your heart is in the right place, but do not allow your emotion to rule you, nor frustration to overtake you. Stop, drop and pray, when you feel yourself getting frustrated with some of the individuals on this board.
Walking with Him,
Bruce
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 10, 2012, 08:16:04 AM
nice cut and paste WITHOUT noting your sources... so on top of being a pretentious, sanctimonious, mendacious, illogical, unreasonable, unscientific troll you are now a plagiarist too... ::) i took a screenshot so don't bother to edit it now... and have fun in hell...
I thought the sourse was obvious, THE BIBLE. Went back and checked and yes, scriptures. Glad you saved it! ;)
again you lie!
luke 1:26-38
the angel who appears to mary to foretell the birth of jesus says that jesus will be given the throne of david, that he will reign over the house of jacob forever, and that his kingdom will never end. none of this took place nor can it now be fulfilled.
Jesus has indeed been given the throne of David and he WILL reign over the House of Jacob FOREVER, and His Kingdom will NEVER end. These are taking place even as I write. The Lord Jesus Christ is seated on the throne at the right hand of God the Father. And SOON, after the conclusion of the 7 year tribulation (hell on earth!) Jesus will return physically to establish His Kindom from Jerusalem, where He will reign over the nations of the earth for a thousand years. (The Bible even tells us what happens after that thousand years is over! How cool is that!)
matthew 16:28, mark 9:1, luke 9:27
jesus says that some of his listeners will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom. this was said almost 2000 years ago. all of his listeners are now dead... yet jesus has not come again in his kingdom. all of the alleged words of jesus put forth in the bible are therefore suspect.
(Matthew 16:28) "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Who SAW Jesus coming in his kingdom, glorified and speaking to Moses and Elijah? Peter, James and John of the twelve. Who was shown the FUTURE and SAW Jesus returning to earth at the battle of Armageddon? Who wrote the book of Revelations? John. The mount of transfiguration is really the kicker for me. ;)
but enough of your lies and bullshit petitio principii logical fallacies you poseur...
Learn to love the TRUTH, for the TRUTH shall set you free. You yourself are fulfilling the Bible prophecy, "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; (2 Timothy 3:1-4)
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
This is your problem. I don't need to design an experiment to convince you of the reality of God any more than I need to design an experiment to convince you I am married. What part of, "I have met JESUS myself," don't you understand? I have shown now, that like the wind which can NOT be seen but only felt and is evidenced by all that it touches, so likewise is the Spirit of the Lord. Changed lives. I have also shown, (just touching on it BRIEFLY) that there is NO GOD LIKE MY GOD who knows the end from the beginning, by sharing a "few" past tense Bible prophecies. There are SO MANY MORE, and the really exciting ones, well, at least for the believers, are yet to come. Not so good for the rest of you all though, as the WORST PARTS OF THE BIBLE will more than likely be fulfilled in your lifetime. It is only out of LOVE for your soul and the souls of others here that I take valuable time to share light in your darkened heart. It is God's will that NONE should perish, but that all men be saved. For it is written that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 02:27:02 AM
I thought the sourse was obvious, THE BIBLE. Went back and checked and yes, scriptures. Glad you saved it! ;)
liar... your source was http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/messiah.htm
THAT is where you copied and pasted from WORD FOR WORD... LINKS, FONT AND SIZE TAGS INCLUDED without referencing your source you lying plagiarist. god sees what you are doing
you filthy, lying, cheating, swindling, sinner. and he is not pleased with you.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 02:27:02 AM
I don't need to design an experiment to convince you of the reality of God
yes... you do. what part of "enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur..." don't YOU understand?
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
Oh, by the way everyone, an AWESOME night tonight, as I participated in a city wide rally for the youth. Thousands attended to hear the Word of God preached, and to worship. The Holy Spirit moved on the hearts of HUNDREDS of youth that made a confession of faith in the Lord Jesus Crist experiencing the first step in their new life! The angels of heaven rejoice when one sinner repents, and tonight, well, there was a lot of heavenly rejoicing going on! I'll post some pics tomorrow for you all.
Funny, as W argues, hundreds have moved past him, already experiencing that which he hates, yet longs for, a changed life. Ahh... Life is good!! And Eternal life... Even better!
Oh, by the way, W, if you are right about life, then when I have died, I haved lived a good life (impossible without a changed life) but if you are wrong, and the Bible is right, then you have lost your soul for eternity in the lake of fire. Jesus said, for what is a man profited if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul? For what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Walking with Him,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 02:49:58 AM
Funny, as W argues, hundreds have moved past him, already experiencing that which he hates, yet longs for, a changed life. Ahh... Life is good!! And Eternal life... Even better!
Oh, by the way, W, if you are right about life, then when I have died, I haved lived a good life (impossible without a changed life) but if you are wrong, and the Bible is right, then you have lost your soul for eternity in the lake of fire. Jesus said, for what is a man profited if he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul? For what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Walking with Him,
Bruce
the oh so old and oh so flawed "pascal's wager"... ::) how is it you godtards are unaware that it is regularly used as an example of faulty logic...
from my post: http://www.overunity.com/11661/new-renaissance-prizes-offered-to-encourage-energy-experimenters/msg306920/#msg306920
ahhh the well worn and ohh so flawed "pascal's wager" ::)
there are a lot of problems with this argument...
the first problem lies in the implicit yet unstated assumption that we already know which god we should believe in. that assumption, however, is not necessary to the argument, and thus the argument itself does not explain which religion a person should follow... this can be described as the “avoiding the wrong hell†dilemma. if you happen to follow the right religion, you may indeed “go to heaven and avoid hell.†however, if you choose the wrong religion, you’ll still go to hell.
the thing missed by so many of the godtards who use this argument is that you cannot “bet†on the general concept of “theism.†you have to pick specific doctrines... theism is just a broad construct which includes all possible god-beliefs and, as such, does not exist absent specific theologies. if you are going to really believe in a god, you have to believe in something â€" which means picking something... if you pick nothing, then your “belief†is literally empty and you remain an atheist. so, a person who picks risks picking the wrong god and avoiding the wrong hell.
a second problem is that it isn’t actually true that the person who bets loses nothing. if a person bets on the wrong god, then the true gawd (tm) just might punish them for their foolish behavior. what’s more, the true gawd (tm) might not mind that people don’t bother believing in it when they use rational reasons â€" thus, not picking at all might be the safest bet... you just cannot know.
also, some choices do indeed come with large risks. many have died because they trusted in prayer rather than medicine. others have perished due to the handling of poisonous snakes and the drinking of lethal liquids because zombie jesus said they would be able to do so without harm... thus, the choice of pseudoscientific and mystical beliefs can carry very negative consequences.
a third problem is the unstated premise that the two choices presented are equally likely. it is only when two choices are equal in probability that it makes sense to go with the allegedly “safe bet.†however, if the choice of a god is revealed to be a great deal less likely than the choice of no god, then god ceases to be the “safe bet.†or, if both are equally likely, then neither is actually a “safe betâ€...
one final problem is the conclusion of the argument, where a person decides to believe in a god because it is the choice that offers the most benefits and least dangers. however, this requires that the god in question not mind that you believe in it merely in order to gain entrance to heaven and/or to avoid punishment in hell.
but this means that this god isn’t actually a just or fair god, since a person’s eternal fate is not being decided upon based on their actions, but merely on their decision to make a pragmatic and selfish choice...
but that's logic and reason... something you faithers don't wholly embrace. you only use logic and reason when it doesn't make you uncomfortable, if at all.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 02:49:58 AM
Oh, by the way everyone, an AWESOME night tonight, as I participated in a city wide rally for the youth. Thousands attended to hear the Word of God preached, and to worship. The Holy Spirit moved on the hearts of HUNDREDS of youth that made a confession of faith in the Lord Jesus Crist experiencing the first step in their new life! The angels of heaven rejoice when one sinner repents, and tonight, well, there was a lot of heavenly rejoicing going on! I'll post some pics tomorrow for you all.
enough of your lies and bullshit red herring logical fallacies you poseur...
lets start with your observation...
it could be something along the line of 'the universe is vast and complex'
then we go on to your hypothesis...
for you it would most likely be 'god created the universe'
then you would design an experiment to demonstrate the validity of your hypothesis...
this is the part that we agnostics (and atheists) would be most interested in. ;)
and so on...
oh and bruce... even if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend IS real, i'd gladly spend "eternity in the lake of fire" before ever bending my knee to such a malign thug.
and hear this CFB bruce samuel tentzer, pastor of the chapel of the pines, nacogdoches, texas... i am a vengeful man... so think twice before you insult my honor or accuse me of sin.
Proof of Jesus !
http://mayhmong.hubpages.com/hub/Weird-Items-On-Ebay
Quote from: Newton II on October 11, 2012, 03:53:41 AM
Proof of Jesus !
http://mayhmong.hubpages.com/hub/Weird-Items-On-Ebay
::) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzButIq-6c
PROOF OF THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!
http://www.venganza.org/category/sightings/
if i were standing on the rim of the grand canyon with anyone of you fucking wanker godbots you would say "that's proof of god."
to which i would respond "no it's not. ::) it's proof of fucking erosion. it's a big fucking gully eroded by that big fucking river down there... you fucking prick."
fact is... it's proof of erosion.
Is it you and yours, Bruce? (No comment):
http://www.boomerangbooks.com.au/Latter-Rain/Bruce-S-Tentzer/book_9781609114077.htm
Quote from: Qwert on October 11, 2012, 04:28:49 AM
Is it you and yours, Bruce? (No comment):
http://www.boomerangbooks.com.au/Latter-Rain/Bruce-S-Tentzer/book_9781609114077.htm
yup... that's bruce the godbot. the hypocrite even ran a tavern... probably still does. ::) he feeds on the ignorant, the hopeless and the down and out.
W
Does the fact that you are COMPLETELY anonymous here ,somehow give you the right to threaten people that are not.
You list their name and address and post An "I am a man of Vengeance
threat.
As you Know I am not anonymous either, I have great concerns about this
"man of Vengeance " threat.
This Cowardly anonymous behavior steps too far over the line.
Fair thee well ..............
Quote from: ramset on October 11, 2012, 05:42:47 AM
W
Does the fact that you are COMPLETELY anonymous here ,somehow give you the right to threaten people that are not.
You list their name and address and post An "I am a man of Vengeance
threat.
As you Know I am not anonymous either, I have great concerns about this
"man of Vengeance " threat.
This Cowardly anonymous behavior steps too far over the line.
Fair thee well ..............
i didn't threaten anyone... i told him to consider his words carefully. actions have consequence. it's biblical prophecy chetty. hosea 8:7 since you don't seem to know a thing about your 'good' book... ::) if you sow the wind, you shall reap the whirlwind...
it's not my fault if bruce is fulfilling biblical prophecy,
for that is the will of god.you know what is also the will of god?
exodus 20:5 "you shall not worship them or serve them; for i, the lord your god, am a jealous god,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate me"
and you too should think twice before insulting my honor or calling me a sinner... or a coward. or threaten me with eternal damnation... you fucking hypocrite.
and i didn't post his address you fucking liar... ::) god hates liars chetty... want me to show you the chapters and verse AGAIN?
W
Quote
News (http://www.overunity.com/news/) / Re: Probality of God (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339921/#msg339921)«
on: Today at 09:06:03 AM » oh and bruce... even if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend IS real, i'd gladly spend "eternity in the lake of fire" before ever bending my knee to such a malign thug.
and hear this CFB
bruce samuel tentzer, pastor of the chapel of the pines, nacogdoches, texas... i am a vengeful man... so think twice before you insult my honor or accuse me of sin.
end Quote.
W
Where I come from ,you say that to a man .......
All bets are off.
unless of course you are hiding behind a Completely anonymous Handle on a forum where no one could ever possibly know your identity.
Let the intent of your post speak for itself,I will not discuss this anymore
Nor will I take part in your onesided anonymous Threats.
Quote from: ramset on October 11, 2012, 06:07:07 AM
W
Where I come from ,you say that to a man .......
All bets are off.
unless of course you are hiding behind a Completely anonymous Handle on a forum where no one could ever possibly know your identity.
Let the intent of your post speak for itself,I will not discuss this anymore
Nor will I take part in your onesided anonymous Threats.
chetty, hear this CFB... where i come from if you insult my honor, call me unrighteous, vain, foolish, darkened, corrupted, unclean, lustful, dishonorable, sinner and condemn me to everlasting damnation... those are fighting words.
let the intent of your posts speak for themselves...
you still don't see your fucking hypocrisy do you? you have no empathy... why should i? as you wish, all bets are off.
Oh its getting serious i thought it was just a debate. Children now a days are getting bad. God will punish you all.. :D
Quote from: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 06:15:25 AM
Oh its getting serious i though it was just a debate. Children now a days are getting bad. God will punish you all.. :D
which god? ::)
a zealot's stones will break my bones... but gods will never hurt me.
which god? ::) a zealot's stones will break
my bones... but gods will
never hurt me.
--End of Quote--
Which God? God is not the thing that you might thinking which can create the universe. The logic here is if god exist, how does he exist? Its ilogical if you say he just pop up in space? Only idiot will agree on that theory. The possible answer to this question is, God is formed by the accidental formation of atom and become the simplest cell. After long long years of evolution, a inteligent being is formed. And after billion of years their technology become super advance that they communicate and can control anything through with only their mind. God might the leader of the first civilization on the whole universe that still live. In simple words, God is an alien but has a kind heart. Jesus christ always say his father is in heaven but what is heaven? Heaven is not the cloud we see, heaven is beyond the earth or ouside the earth atmosphere. That means god is somewhere in outer space.
Quote from: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 07:01:49 AM
Which God? God is not the thing that you might thinking which can create the universe. The logic here is if god exist, how does he exist? Its ilogical if you say he just pop up in space? Only idiot will agree on that theory. The possible answer to this question is, God is formed by the accidental formation of atom and become the simplest cell. After long long years of evolution, a inteligent being is formed. And after billion of years their technology become super advance that they communicate and can control anything through with only their mind. God might the leader of the first civilization on the whole universe that still live. In simple words, God is an alien but has a kind heart.
i think i'm just going to use your own words here....
Quote from: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 02:16:42 AM
Do u have proof on your claim? Sorry to say but im sure your wrong..
Hey thats a different topic about einstein theory. Lol
Quote from: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 07:14:06 AM
Hey thats a different topic about einstein theory. Lol
regardless... they are appropriate.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 03:06:03 AM
oh and bruce... even if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend IS real, i'd gladly spend "eternity in the lake of fire" before ever bending my knee to such a malign thug.
and hear this CFB bruce samuel tentzer, pastor of the chapel of the pines, nacogdoches, texas... i am a vengeful man... so think twice before you insult my honor or accuse me of sin.
Hi W. ,
LOL, you crack me up! Considering that I posted a link to my facebook page, do you think that bothers me? Really? Your argument is weak and you logic dull. You think by your voice getting louder, and threatening, that it will confirm your argument? Really? I think the Word of God must be getting under your skin. But that is a good thing! Insult your "honor"? Really? To have "honor", one must show themselves honorable! Have you shown yourself "honorable" to those you blaspheme, curse and threaten on a daily basis? You are a "vengeful man"? Really? Am I supposed to fear you quivering in my prayer closet? I serve the Lord Jesus Christ, of whom then shall I fear? Do you think I preach God's word in the darkness behind a mask?
Do you think that my repeating yourself it will help you win the debate? Your threats make your argument even weaker. And like I have said before, "out of the abundance of your heart your mouth speaks." Once again, you are my "evidence" as we see that the Bible is true!
Oh, and to "accuse you of sin", it is not I but the Word of God! And W., it accuse not only you of Sin, but also the whole world! "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." And " If any many say he has not sinned, that man is a LIAR and the truth is not in him." Have You sinned W.?
Me thinks it is your CONSCIENCE convicting you through my words. But this also is a good thing for your soul. You see, I once was you, but only much younger. The only reason I spend any time at all responding to you... to this point.
Walking with HIM,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 09:08:27 AM
Hi W. ,
LOL, you crack me up! Considering that I posted a link to my facebook page, do you think that bothers me? Really? Your argument is weak and you logic dull. You think by your voice getting louder, and threatening, that it will confirm your argument? Really? I think the Word of God must be getting under your skin. But that is a good thing! Insult your "honor"? Really? To have "honor", one must show themselves honorable! Have you shown yourself "honorable" to those you blaspheme, curse and threaten on a daily basis? You are a "vengeful man"? Really? Am I supposed to fear you quivering in my prayer closet? I serve the Lord Jesus Christ, of whom then shall I fear? Do you think I preach God's word in the darkness behind a mask?
you'd crack me up if you weren't such a sincere lunatic zealot... blaspheme? your imaginary godfairy? HA! ::) fuck off i warned you to choose your words carefully... you bought your ticket, you take the ride... all bets are off.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 09:08:27 AM
Do you think that my repeating yourself it will help you win the debate? Your threats make your argument even weaker. And like I have said before, "out of the abundance of your heart your mouth speaks." Once again, you are my "evidence" as we see that the Bible is true!
i just had a 'personal experience with god... forgive me bruce you were right, he is real, he spoke to me. he told me i am his instrument, his instrument of wrath destined to visit the iniquities of the father upon the children... and he told me you are a servant of satan... i can say no more of what he asked of me, but i will do it... because one cannot go against the word of god.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 09:08:27 AM
Oh, and to "accuse you of sin", it is not I but the Word of God! And W., it accuse not only you of Sin, but also the whole world! "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." And " If any many say he has not sinned, that man is a LIAR and the truth is not in him." Have You sinned W.?
no... that was you. that was you typing and that was you directing those insults to my honor at me. sow the wind and you shall reap the whirlwind... it is the word of god.
i'll be seeing you bruce... count on it.
I will discuss the Probability of God with anyone on this board and attempt to answer any question or debate. But I must draw the line on W.'s threats. Thus ALL of his forthcoming posts either to me or about me will be ignored. I suggest that ALL posters, from either side of the debate simply stop responding to his posts, but only to one anothers.
Cheers,
Bruce
P.s. I live in Texas, LOVE Texas and am proud to be a Texan. I will turn the other cheek about the Gospel. BUT, someone threatens my family and nears my home, either my friend Winchester or Colt will see that they find out right quick if there is a Creator or not, for I will send them to MEET HIM. ;D In Texas that is legal and we ALL have guns and know how to use them. Enough said! LOL
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 11, 2012, 09:23:50 AM
I will discuss the Probability of God with anyone on this board and attempt to answer any question or debate. But I must draw the line on W.'s threats. Thus ALL of his forthcoming posts either to me or about me will be ignored. I suggest that ALL posters, from either side of the debate simply stop responding to his posts, but only to one anothers.
Cheers,
Bruce
P.s. I live in Texas, LOVE Texas and am proud to be a Texan. I will turn the other cheek about the Gospel. BUT, someone threatens my family and nears my home, either my friend Winchester or Colt will see that they find out right quick if there is a Creator or not, for I will send them to MEET HIM. ;D In Texas that is legal and we ALL have guns and know how to use them. Enough said! LOL
the probability of god is directly proportional to the probability of zeus... and allah... and vishnu... and odin... and ra... and ea... and ao... and leprechauns... and the flying spaghetti monster... and pink unicorns with fucking glitter... etc., etc.
i drew the line regarding your threats first... godtard. i warned you not to dishonor my name or threaten me with eternal damnation. we got guns here too... don't threaten me with a good time... ::) you're nothing but a gutless prick that condemns others from behind the skirt of his imaginary friend... ::)
Quote from: Neo-X on October 11, 2012, 07:01:49 AMHeaven is not the cloud we see, heaven is beyond the earth or ouside the earth atmosphere. That means god is somewhere in outer space.
Heaven is a state of mind.
Thus, God is in your head.
hey chetty... did you know bruce allmighty ran/runs a tavern? how do you feel about this 'pastor', this alleged 'man of god' knowing that he is inflicting upon people the very thing you try to 'rescue' them from?
god told me he molests children...
Dear Bruce
I love the freedom My country offers me, Like yourself I don't hide my Identity here,Never Have.
In my Country what is happening here is a federal Offence,mostly because one of the party's involved is Anonymous.
Should you ever need any type of assistance regarding this matter
please don't hesitate to contact me.
Chetkremens@gmail.com
I can absolutely assure you all party's involved will not remain anonymous.
http://news.cnet.com/Create-an-e-annoyance%2C-go-to-jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html (http://news.cnet.com/Create-an-e-annoyance%2C-go-to-jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html)
We could sort out the minutia of the charges later.
This is not a threat of any kind,this is what must happen if this continues.
END OF STORY "W"
Yes Or NO??
[your actions will determine the out come and your compliance
or lack there of]
I do not go for bans, never have,never will,however as per our laws
Stefan will be involved here. [he won't like that one bit]
Thx
Chet
PS
"W"
If you feel so strongly perhaps a court case would further your cause.?
You could champion your point!
They say their is no such thing as bad advertising.
Perhaps you understand now when you engage people that are not anonymous on the internet you should always act as if they are standing next to you.
Or some day you might be standing next to them in a court of law.
The security of your anonymity hangs by your decision ,regardless of the out come.
A man who feels the need to casually mention his Gun smithing skills on a public forum [for no obvious reason] ,and then tells another "pastor" He doesn't like his ANONYMOUS persona being Preached at so he's coming for him!
Nothing Frivolous there.
I think They'll get the "Net" out.but not the internet!
The decision will be Bruces not mine .
As of 10:45 am EST
I am no longer responding to
W
Unless he says he's sorry............. !:.}
??
you know that creepy feeling you got chet?
yeah... that's the very same feeling you fucking godtards give to so many others when you start threatening them, cursing them and calling them all sorts of unkind things...
and you know what's really fucking sad? that i had to go to such gross lengths and use such gross hyperbole to get you to even START to grasp your complete lack of empathy... even now, i doubt you really get it, as your mind is so debilitated with the noetic efffects of sin.
i'm speaking to you because i truly believe that you just might get it... bruce's indoctrination is complete, there is no hope for him, but you... you i still hold onto a glimmer for... even though i think you're a fucking prick. ;)
Heaven is a state of mind.
Thus, God is in your head.
--End of Quote--
If thats what you believe, i will tolerate you.
Quote from: ramset on October 11, 2012, 10:01:09 AM
Dear Bruce
I love the freedom My country offers me, Like yourself I don't hide my Identity here,Never Have.
In my Country what is happening here is a federal Offence,mostly because one of the party's involved is Anonymous.
Should you ever need any type of assistance regarding this matter
please don't hesitate to contact me.
Chetkremens@gmail.com
I can absolutely assure you all party's involved will not remain anonymous.
http://news.cnet.com/Create-an-e-annoyance%2C-go-to-jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html (http://news.cnet.com/Create-an-e-annoyance%2C-go-to-jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html)
We could sort out the minutia of the charges later.
This is not a threat of any kind,this is what must happen if this continues.
END OF STORY "W"
Yes Or NO??
[your actions will determine the out come and your compliance
or lack there of]
I do not go for bans, never have,never will,however as per our laws
Stefan will be involved here. [he won't like that one bit]
Thx
Chet
you'd have to prove intent... and the record shows my only intent has been to educate and to defend and uphold logic, reason and my personal honor.
good fucking luck... your chances are about the same as the probability of your imaginary godfairy... :)
and if you're going to petition stefan to ban me i shall return the favor... you have done nothing to present the SCIENTIFIC METHODS TO VALIDATE YOUR GODFAIRY FOR 40+ PAGES... all you have done is to call us non believers names, curse our souls to everlasting damnation and dishonor us.
what i have done is what the bible instructs... that is... to do unto you as you have done unto others. i'm playing by your 'rule book' idiot. if you can't take it... don't dish it out.
Read above
W
The judge will work the "intent" part out !{ I Have NO PROBLEM swearing out a statement }
>.<
Quote from: ramset on October 11, 2012, 10:27:05 AM
Read above
W
The judge will work the "intent" part out !{ I Have NO PROBLEM swearing out a statement }
>.<
read above
C
good fucking luck... he's probably going to toss you in jail for a frivolous suit. and i have no problem swearing out a countersuit... against you, against bruce, against magluvin, against tito, against stefan for permitting this thread even though it violates the forum rules...
let's go... bring it on. you have sown the wind... now reap the whirlwind.
bruce has accused me of being:
covetous
boaster
blasphemer
disobedient to parents
unthankful
unholy
without natural affection
trucebreaker
false accuser
incontinent
despiser of those that are good
traitor
heady
highminded
unrighteous
vain
foolish
darkened
corrupted
unclean
lustful
dishonorable
sinner
and you think that is acceptable? ::) grow up.
a repost from page 5 of this thread...
chetty, vinreet, tito the clown or any other of you faithers that consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review.
thank you for your cooperation.
note that 39 pages have passed since then... and neither bruce, nor chet, nor mags, nor tito... not a single one of you faithers has presented either... i do believe their intent is to annoy and flame. what other reason could they have for not simply presenting their methods? it's a very simple request...
Quote from: ramset on October 11, 2012, 10:01:09 AM
As of 10:45 am EST
I am no longer responding to
W
Unless he says he's sorry............. !:.}
??
proof that the flying spaghetti monster really does answer prayers!!
and don't even think i would consider an apology until bruce and you and teets and mags publicly withdraw all of your insults to my person and honor and your threats to my soul, admit publicly that you have no more evidence for your god than there is for zeus and that your godfairy is not superior to any other godfairy... ::)
A breach of my agreement not to post [to "W"}again until "W" says he's sorry.
For clarity.....
"W"
You didn't do your homework where Chester is concerned [personal violations against you],also the law and how it applies here.
This particular law which is federal and not Local
[ Note ;,there are plenty of local laws cropping up in the USA where Guns and violence have taken a "high priority" as well as all manner of "bully" stuff.]
Specifically applies to folks that hide behind Monikers and post to
Named persons in public or non public venues .
Doesn't apply to any one here but Myself and Bruce
END OR STORY
>.< <........... < [thats another PERIOD}
Get your own more appropriate law .............
Or promise to behave yourself !!!!!!!!
Freedom of Speech in the USA does not protect your behavior here!
Gotta go back to work........
Chet
PS
The federal law in the USA
http://news.cnet.com/Create-an-e-annoyance%2C-go-to-jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F12716%2Fprobality-of-god%2Fnew%2F%23new&v=1&libid=1349971908141&out=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.cnet.com%2FCreate-an-e-annoyance%252C-go-to-jail%2F2010-1028_3-6022491.html&title=Probality%20of%20God&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.cnet.com%2FCreate-an-e-annoyance%252C-go-to-jail%2F2010-1028_3-6022491.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13499719652601)
Quote from: ramset on October 11, 2012, 12:11:39 PM
A breach of my agreement not to post [to "W"}again until "W" says he's sorry.
For clarity.....
"W"
You didn't do your homework where Chester is concerned [personal violations against you],also the law and how it applies here.
This particular law which is federal and not Local
[ Note ;,there are plenty of local laws cropping up in the USA where Guns and violence have taken a "high priority" as well as all manner of "bully" stuff.]
Specifically applies to folks that hide behind Monikers and post to
Named persons in public or non public venues .
Doesn't apply to any one here but Myself and Bruce
END OR STORY
>.< <........... < [thats another PERIOD}
Get your own more appropriate law .............
Or promise to behave yourself !!!!!!!!
Freedom of Speech in the USA does not protect your behavior here!
Gotta go back to work........
Chet
PS
The federal law in the USA
http://news.cnet.com/Create-an-e-annoyance%2C-go-to-jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F12716%2Fprobality-of-god%2Fnew%2F%23new&v=1&libid=1349971908141&out=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.cnet.com%2FCreate-an-e-annoyance%252C-go-to-jail%2F2010-1028_3-6022491.html&title=Probality%20of%20God&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.cnet.com%2FCreate-an-e-annoyance%252C-go-to-jail%2F2010-1028_3-6022491.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13499719652601)
chet... go fuck yourself. you'd have to prove intent... and the record shows my only intent has been to educate and to defend and uphold logic, reason and my personal honor.
the record also shows all of yours and bruce's and magluvin's and tito's religious hate speech towards unbelievers... and the record shows that 39 pages have passed since you were asked to present your methods... and neither bruce, nor you, nor mags, nor tito... not a single one of you faithers has presented either... i do believe your intent is to annoy and flame. what other reason could you have for not simply presenting your methods after 39 pages!?!? it's a very simple request. so as i said earlier... bring it on.
and furthermore... i have NEVER threatened anyone, with a gun or otherwise... your fearless leader bruce has explicitly threatened the use of guns...
so again... you faithers apologize for all your religious hate speech and your personal attacks against me and my honor and your threats to my soul... or go fuck yourself.
edit: you faithers come to a science site, post a thread that violates site rules and when asked for scientific evidence to substantiate your claims and the scientific methodology you used to falsify and validate... you respond with logical fallacies, character assassinations, personal attacks, personal threats against a persons physical being and personal threats against a persons eternal soul and you really think you have a case for an e-annoyance against the guy who has been asking you for 39 pages for your scientific evidence and your dissemination of your methods? you belong in an institution... i dare you chetty, i double dog dare you.
oh and i'd like to amend my 'intents'... i also intended to mock you faithers zealotry and lunacy.
@ everyone
I just cannot grasp how this thread managed to go this far astray.
This is just a thread about the scientific probability of an existing god.
Do you guys get it?
This thread has nothing to do with religion. IT IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DEBATE.
So to impose religious dogma into this thread is highly improper.
Also, to impose the demand for PROOF is NOT what the thread is about.
Exactly as the titel of the thread indicates, IT DOES NOT DEMAND FOR ANY HARDCORE PROOF, IT JUST ASKS FOR FACTS INDICATING THE PROPABILITY.
If you have any interesting and verifiable facts that may benefit the idea of a conscious Intent behind everything, please post it.
But it has to be verifiable by anyone, believer or non believer.
So I repeat: IT IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DEBATE.
This topic does not care about if you are a believer or not, it only cares about the possible scientifically validated signs of a creator. Remember, in case there are facts presented actually indicating the probability of a creator, this does not neccessarily incorporate a caring creator. It could as well be an indifferent creator who does not favour anything, a creator who does not care more for you than for the bacteria that kills you. Such a creator would not give rise to any kind of religion.
This thread actually could have been quite interesting and intriguing if we had kept to the intended purpose of this thread,
since there are several strange facts indicating a probability as well as a lot of facts indicating the opposite.
Instead this thread has become an absolute failure, ending with hurted egos and personal threats.
I wonder, if I started this thread all over with a titel stressing the scientific outlook, and as author asked you to restrain your input to mere scientific validated facts that would indicate a sign of a god being present, would you religious guys honour the original intent of the thread by keeping your personal religious experiences out, or would you keep on disturbing the thread with religious content?
And if a religious person happened to post inappropriate religious content, would you non-believers restrain from attacking this guy and just cooly remind him of the inappropriate input?
It must be possible in a forum like this to have such a discussion without losing it.
Or are we no better than a bunch of small kids in a sandbox?
Gwandau
Gwandau
Quote
are we no better than a bunch of small kids in a sandbox?
-------------
Of course not !
We're not aloud to have these kind of threads Yet.
Some of us don't play well with others..........
I did learn an awful lot of things here [very good stuff].
I have a personal need to understand my Fellow mans beliefs ,and how they apply them to their lives.
But thats just me.......
'
One thing I did not need to learn was the "federal law" thing.
{not that I Wouldn't mind meeting "W" but I don't think he really likes Me].
Personally ,we have kept beliefs out of here for a good reason,and this little experiment has shown we probably need to maintain the Status Quo.
Just My opinion and that of the administrator also .
Thx
Chet
YOU are god also - deal with it, and get over it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N22CvCClrPI&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N22CvCClrPI&feature=relmfu)
Tommy
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 12:33:10 PM
chet... go fuck yourself. you'd have to prove intent... and the record shows my only intent has been to educate and to defend and uphold logic, reason and my personal honor.
Defend your honor? ::) Lets look at your so called honor. ;)
"chet... go fuck yourself."
"you faithers apologize for all your religious hate speech and your personal attacks against me and my honor and your threats to my soul... or go fuck yourself."
"good fucking luck... your chances are about the same as the probability of your imaginary godfairy... "
"you fucking hypocrite."
"fuck off i warned you to choose your words carefully..."
"and leprechauns... and the flying spaghetti monster... and pink unicorns with fucking glitter... etc., etc."
"god told me he molests children..."
These are just this page and the previous. I fail to see any honor that you havnt already dissolved.
And that last one, considering you claim that you dont believe there is a God, how could he have told you this? Or did you just make that up in your silly little mind? If so, then that statement could be libelous or even slander.
Or is that just more sarcasm?
I suppose all that is what you consider logic and reason. What a joke. What a Fool. ;)
Your credibility if it were a number would be a negative number. Meaning you have none.
Only a few potty mouth demons. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
How old are you two? Im 28 yrs old so im expecting that you two are much younger than me..
Quote from: Magluvin on October 11, 2012, 05:48:45 PM
And that last one, considering you claim that you dont believe there is a God, how could he have told you this? Or did you just make that up in your silly little mind? If so, then that statement could be libelous or even slander.
Or is that just more sarcasm?
mags the religulous godtard bully returns to bully some more... ::)
still bent on assassinating someones character INSTEAD OF PRESENTING A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR YOUR GODFAIRY... how christian of you. ::)
we've been over this before you godtard. all of that was me obeying your holey babble... that was me doing unto you zealots as you have done unto others... try being less of a fucking hypocrite... ::)
slander and libel of your imaginary godfairy... yup. you belong in an institution.
do you really think the opinion of a moronic godbot like you means anything to me mags?
now... once again you insane godbot troll...
please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review.
thank you for your cooperation.
hey eatenbyagrue... what did you think? too subtle? i think i need to ramp it up a notch or two... it's obvious the lunatic godtards still don't get it. what say you oh torchless one?
if it has no supporting
evidence... that would be a
hypothesis. you're 28? and
you don't even know what
a theory is?
--End of Quote--
English is not my native
language. Im good only
when reading but in
speaking im really bad. You
will notice that almost all my
post are edited and im not speak too much.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 12, 2012, 02:58:16 AM
hey eatenbyagrue... what did you think? too subtle? i think i need to ramp it up a notch or two... it's obvious the lunatic godtards still don't get it. what say you oh torchless one?
Here is what I think. I think the theists on this board are not equipped or motivated to defend their positions on scientific grounds. They believe because they strongly want to believe, and all evidence gets filtered through this prism. Religious faith started way before the scientific method, and its self-justification has persisted and efforts to subject religious beliefs to scientific scrutiny are going to be resisted by the adherents. And this being a message board, and not a direct face-to-face debate, it's just too easy to ignore what the other guy says and spout your own stuff, so this is a poor medium for this discussion, especially when the sides cannot even agree on the rules of engagement.
But I am also beginning to see why there are so many religious people on an overunity forum. Overunity research (along with theories on chemtrails, moon landing hoax, 9/11 "truth", etc.) seems to attract people eagerly willing to suspend reason.
Eatin
Quote:
But I am also beginning to see why there are so many religious people on an overunity forum. Overunity research (along with theories on chemtrails, moon landing hoax, 9/11 "truth", etc.) seems to attract people eagerly willing to suspend reason.
------------------------------------
I suppose this statement hits the nail on the head,one mans perception of reason is another mans "your kidding Right".........[two way street around here !]
Thats why prince charming resorts to charts and such [no fudge room].
Your other observation,the high percentage of persons of faith on this Forum,
Begs the question ,why are you fellows here ?
If you "believe" in OU and suppression of technology?[one goes with the other *]
Then what methods did you use to dismiss all the other Science and or theories?
[I believe this does not apply to you ...a complete Unbeliever ]
See,the peeps that come here to taunt ,They would not get all the attention "W"
Has gotten Here [their unbelievers].
There was some confusion about "W" ,most here thought him an atheist,He cleared that part up but refused to apply the same degree of "rigor" to explain his "reasoning" behind that position.[agnostic]
We'll leave that alone [the chart thing].
Thx
Chet
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 12, 2012, 12:26:56 PM
Here is what I think. I think the theists on this board are not equipped or motivated to defend their positions on scientific grounds.
But I am also beginning to see why there are so many religious people on an overunity forum. Overunity research (along with theories on chemtrails, moon landing hoax, 9/11 "truth", etc.) seems to attract people eagerly willing to suspend reason.
What is science?
Things which you cannot understand, things which are beyond the scope of your knowledge, things which science cannot explain - come to conclusion that they are wrong or don't exist. Do you call it science?
Read Einstien's theories, if you don't understand them, come to conclusion that theory itself is wrong?
With the present day's scientific knowledge can you create atleast one house fly in the laboratory without using cells of another fly?
Good points, NewtonII. In the end, soon enough, there will be no excuse left for those who refused to examine the evidence of God's Awesome Hand upon His creation. They demand a silver platter exposition, a cornucopia of elemetary proof of God catered to their very laps, while blindly trusting the 'lords' of the science halls, and their horrendous history of rank revisionism and cowardly corruptions....
No excuses....None at all.
http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=10749 (http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=10749)
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/chapter1/realmatrix.htm (http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/chapter1/realmatrix.htm)
Blessings in Christ
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 12, 2012, 02:53:47 AM
mags the religulous godtard bully returns to bully some more... ::)
still bent on assassinating someones character INSTEAD OF PRESENTING A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FOR YOUR GODFAIRY... how christian of you. ::)
we've been over this before you godtard. all of that was me obeying your holey babble... that was me doing unto you zealots as you have done unto others... try being less of a fucking hypocrite... ::)
slander and libel of your imaginary godfairy... yup. you belong in an institution.
do you really think the opinion of a moronic godbot like you means anything to me mags?
now... once again you insane godbot troll... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd. i would like to compare and contrast as well as offer peer review.
thank you for your cooperation.
First off, what are your guidelines for proof? There must be some criteria that you require. Im not talking about 'the' method. Im talking about what kind of proofs would have to be on the table? Specific proofs, even though you very well know that it is written that you are a Fool to ask for physical proof, being that you are well read. ;)
In order for you to request scientific proofs, you must be in the belief that science is finished looking for things. You must be in the belief that science is complete and is deemed omnipotent and therefore since science has not shown evidence that God exists, then you contend with confidence that he doesnt.
Or... you know very well that God cannot be proved by science and use it as your tool to hold up your end of a debate. ;) ;)
Well science is not omnipotent. Not yet anyways. I dont know how far it will go. They are developing mind controlled video games now. This will lead to mind control. If they can read thoughts, there is potential for 2 way communication eventually.
But were not there yet, let alone science being able to detect spirits or even God, even if God allowed that to be.
So your, prove God with science, is what 'you' would call a red herring. I smell hypocrite. ;)
You said this...
"slander and libel of your imaginary godfairy... yup. you belong in an institution."
Well, what would be a good 'reason' or 'logic' in saying such a statement in which I was referring to? But you wont answer that. Because it would show that you are a fool. ;)
Answer it. You cant? Why not use science to explain it? Logic? Reason? ;)
Science is not your tool. It is your crutch. ;)
I only expect those things that you said to come from someone whom is already or should be in an institution. Now tell me, am I lying? ;) Or maybe that language is common in your family. You learned it from somewhere. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 12, 2012, 08:24:28 PM
First off, what are your guidelines for proof? There must be some criteria that you require. Im not talking about 'the' method. Im talking about what kind of proofs would have to be on the table? Specific proofs, even though you very well know that it is written that you are a Fool to ask for physical proof, being that you are well read. ;)
In order for you to request scientific proofs, you must be in the belief that science is finished looking for things. You must be in the belief that science is complete and is deemed omnipotent and therefore since science has not shown evidence that God exists, then you contend with confidence that he doesnt.
Or... you know very well that God cannot be proved by science and use it as your tool to hold up your end of a debate. ;) ;)
Well science is not omnipotent. Not yet anyways. I dont know how far it will go. They are developing mind controlled video games now. This will lead to mind control. If they can read thoughts, there is potential for 2 way communication eventually.
But were not there yet, let alone science being able to detect spirits or even God, even if God allowed that to be.
So your, prove God with science, is what 'you' would call a red herring. I smell hypocrite. ;)
You said this...
"slander and libel of your imaginary godfairy... yup. you belong in an institution."
Well, what would be a good 'reason' or 'logic' in saying such a statement in which I was referring to? But you wont answer that. Because it would show that you are a fool. ;)
Answer it. You cant? Why not use science to explain it? Logic? Reason? ;)
Science is not your tool. It is your crutch. ;)
I only expect those things that you said to come from someone whom is already or should be in an institution. Now tell me, am I lying? ;) Or maybe that language is common in your family. You learned it from somewhere. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
your post doesn't address the questions i asked of you and thus is a red herring logical fallacy...
once again you insane godbot troll... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Quote from: Newton II on October 12, 2012, 07:17:57 PM
What is science?
Things which you cannot understand, things which are beyond the scope of your knowledge, things which science cannot explain - come to conclusion that they are wrong or don't exist. Do you call it science?
Read Einstien's theories, if you don't understand them, come to conclusion that theory itself is wrong?
With the present day's scientific knowledge can you create atleast one house fly in the laboratory without using cells of another fly?
science is NOT "things which you cannot understand" why do you fucking moronic godbots insist on continually lying and misrepresenting?
science is a process describing the systematic study of structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experimentation. it is fallible, which is why theories are repeatedly vetted. that which stands the test of time and endless scrutiny is eventually taught for the next generation to test, improve or disprove. this is nature of science, it is not perfect but it is self correcting...religion is not a process, scripture is not based on systematic study, words on paper do not qualify as observable, none of the fantastical events are testable or even logical. the only explanation it offers is an assertion: god did it. the claim of divine origin implies infallibility, any attempt to question it is met with ostracisation, hostility or violence. this is the nature of religion, it claims to be perfect therefore there is no need for self correction.
now... you fucking moronic godbot...
for the UMPTEENTH TIME... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 12, 2012, 08:24:28 PM
snip..
Science is not your tool. It is your crutch.
snip..
Science is everyone's tool and what a wonderful crutch it is.
As we sit typing words into a keyboard and converse with someone on the other side of the world, as we still sit, probably only because scientific medical knowledge has kept us from dying prematurely, as we sit here discussing the wonderful universe around us, knowledge of which has been made all the more accessible to all of us, care of science, as we sit here, in our flick of a switch homes watching our flick of a switch entertainment, as we ..... well you get the picture. Science has transformed our lives in so many ways we take most of it for granted.
Science doesn't have all the "answers", and no scientist would ever claim it did. Nor would any scientist ever claim that all the questions have been asked let alone answered.
Science is the art of observing something, asking questions about what is observed, then seeking out the answers to those questions. Nothing more and nothing less.
Cheers
Quote from: Newton II on October 12, 2012, 07:17:57 PM
What is science?
Things which you cannot understand, things which are beyond the scope of your knowledge, things which science cannot explain - come to conclusion that they are wrong or don't exist. Do you call it science?
Read Einstien's theories, if you don't understand them, come to conclusion that theory itself is wrong?
With the present day's scientific knowledge can you create atleast one house fly in the laboratory without using cells of another fly?
What are you talking about? I can understand religious claims, and they can in fact be subjected to scientific scrutiny. If, for example, you believe that prayer is effective in curing illness, then this is a scientific claim that can be tested, and for that matter has been tested (results were not favorable for prayer). There are many other religious claims which have in fact been tested by science, and have been proven to be wrong (6000 year old earth, Noah's Ark story, many others). Generally, what has happened is that more and more of the Bible gets relegated to "allegory" or some such, where it cannot be taken literally.
And you still have everything backwards. No one has to prove that religion is wrong. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It is up to theists to prove that their outlandish claims are right. For example, if you posit there is an afterlife, well explain how you know this. And old Jewish fairy tales do not count, or I can start trotting out Lord of the Rings as evidence.
Quote from: TechStuf on October 12, 2012, 08:08:59 PM
They demand a silver platter exposition, a cornucopia of elemetary proof of God catered to their very laps, while blindly trusting the 'lords' of the science halls, and their horrendous history of rank revisionism and cowardly corruptions....
actually, you fucking godtard... i'd be infinitely impressed with just ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR GOD...
i'll wait... ::)
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 13, 2012, 12:51:25 AM
I can start trotting out Lord of the Rings as evidence.
as it is written... who among you can deny the flame imperishable?
The Ainulindalë
* There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made. And he spoke to them, propounding to them themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad.
* For a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Ilúvatar from which he came, and in the understanding of their brethren they grew but slowly. Yet ever as they listened they came to deeper understanding, and increased in unison and harmony.
* Then Ilúvatar said to them: 'Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.'
* It seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.
* The Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Ilúvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
* Now the Children of Ilúvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. And amid all the splendours of the World, its vast halls and spaces, and its wheeling fires, Ilúvatar chose a place for their habitation in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the innumerable stars.
* 'I know the desire of your minds that what ye have seen should verily be, not only in your thought, but even as ye yourselves are, and yet other. Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it. And suddenly the Ainur saw afar off a light, as it were a cloud with a living heart of flame; and they knew that this was no vision only, but that Ilúvatar had made a new thing: Eä, the World that Is.
* Thus it came to pass that of the Ainur some abode still with Ilúvatar beyond the confines of the World; but others, and among them many of the greatest and most fair, took the leave of Ilúvatar and descended into it. But this condition Ilúvatar made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs. And therefore they are named the Valar, the Powers of the World.
* When the Valar entered into Eä they were at first astounded and at a loss, for it was as if naught was yet made which they had seen in vision, and all was but on point to begin and yet unshaped, and it was dark. For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Tuneless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing; but now they had entered in at the beginning of Time, and the Valar perceived that the World had been but foreshadowed and foresung, and they must achieve it. So began their great labours in wastes unmeasured and unexplored, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time and in the midst of the vast halls of Eä there came to be that hour and that place where was made the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar.
* And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults.
AND Ilúvatar IS PROVEN IN THE SAME MANNER AND WAY, USING THE VERY SAME METHOD THAT MAGLUVIN THE GODBOT BULLY HAS PROVEN HIS GODFAIRY...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 13, 2012, 12:41:39 AM
your post doesn't address the questions i asked of you and thus is a red herring logical fallacy...
once again you insane godbot troll... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
Lol, I dont have to answer your potty mouth agenda questions. You are not looking for God. You are looking to try to trick people that believe in God with impossible questions. That is your agenda. ;) Your science is incomplete. ;)
And thank you for your tacit admission that you are a fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 01:09:26 AM
Lol, I dont have to answer your potty mouth agenda questions. You are not looking for God. You are looking to try to trick people that believe in God with impossible questions. That is your agenda. ;) Your science is incomplete. ;)
And thank you for your tacit admission that you are a fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
correct... i am not looking for your asinine, imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend...
i am asking you to substantiate your asinine claim... we've been over this time and time again you moronic godbot...
once again you insane godbot troll... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
I cannot believe this is continuing to circle to what looks like forever!
In the end you will all find out that GOD gave us a brain so we can press forward and finally discover that there is no GOD!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 13, 2012, 01:15:26 AM
correct... i am not looking for your asinine, imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend... i am asking you to substantiate your asinine claim... we've been over this time and time again you moronic godbot...
once again you insane godbot troll... please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
"correct... i am not looking for your asinine, imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend..."
Oh, so your just here to abuse people that say they believe in God? ;)
Since you have no want nor ambition in finding God, then your agenda is to abuse the ones that do. Just a fun part of your day. I have to say, do you do anything that is constructive or productive? ;)
Are you trying to help us realize your version of Gods existence? Is that the productive part of your agenda? ;)
Well your fired. ;)
Mags
Has anyone tried to give a probability figure yet. Hmmm. Lets see. Most statistical probability is referenced to something that is quantatively known. Usually the broader the range of quantities known, the more accurate their use as references.
What can we use as a known statistical reference? The number of grains of sand on the earth compared to the number of stars in our galaxy.
What are the odds of another known planet in our galaxy having the same number of grains of sand (give or take a few billion for locale error). Given that our knowledge of any known planets around other stars is statistically miniscule compared to the number of stars in our milky way then we're already in hot water trying to give a probability even for that let alone a probability for the existence of a god.
It seems the only way to reference this is to look at the probability of our own existence. What's the probability of a whole universe springing into existence from nothing. ? Since "nothing" is infinite, the probability against creation of something from nothing is infinite. So too, the probability of a god springing into existence from nothing is the same. Infinite against.
But we do exist in a universe here and now, which is proved simply by our obvious being. So, we may have came into existence against infinite probability (assuming a universe beginning from nothing), but we cannot prove the same is true for a god when there is no explicit evidence in the here and now. The probability against remains infinite.
Cheers
Quote from: lumen on October 13, 2012, 01:21:31 AM
In the end you will all find out that GOD gave us a brain so we can press forward and finally discover that there is no GOD!
Prove that statement. ;) Or provide sources for this information. ;)
Mags
Quote from: hoptoad on October 13, 2012, 01:36:41 AM
The probability against remains infinite.
Cheers
Well science says bang bang. We say creation. You say "The probability against remains infinite." from what I read, against both. Well what if the way it was 'created', it involved a bang bang? :o
Or are you proposing everything was just here all a long? ::) If what science says about the universe expanding 'is true', it must have been smaller if it is getting larger as time goes by.
Maybe it goes bang bang, expands, then contracts to the center again and goes bang bang again and again. Who knows. If it did, that doesnt mean that creation is not a possibility.
If God says he created it all, who is to say that he didnt? You? Wilby?
Prove it. ;) If you are going to state it as fact.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 01:57:40 AM
If God says he created it all, who is to say that he didnt? You? Wilby?
Prove it. ;) If you are going to state it as fact.
Mags
Ilúvatar says He created it all, who is to say that He didnt? you? chet? bruce? tito? newtonii?
prove it. ;) if you are going to state it as fact.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 01:57:40 AM
Or are you proposing everything was just here all a long? ::) If what science says about the universe expanding 'is true', it must have been smaller if it is getting larger as time goes by.
Maybe it goes bang bang, expands, then contracts to the center again and goes bang bang again and again. Who knows. If it did, that doesnt mean that creation is not a possibility.
now you're actually being reasonable... and this is really all we have been asking of you... all this time. you're using key words like possibility... and key phrases like 'who knows'. ;)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 01:57:40 AM
If God says he created it all, who is to say that he didnt? You? Wilby?
Prove it. ;) If you are going to state it as fact.
Mags
and now you're being a moronic godbot again... bipolar between godbot and reasonable? or just a hypocrite when it comes to your special godfairy that touches you? ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 01:57:40 AM
snip.."The probability against remains infinite." from what I read, against both. "
The probability against existence, only
remains for a god, since we are here and our existence is an actuality, and proven, rather than just a probability.
Also, one should never confuse probability and improbability with possibility or impossibility . They are not the same, and to say something is improbable does not automatically mean it is impossible. Nor does saying something is possible mean that it is probable.
Cheers
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 13, 2012, 02:30:42 AM
now you're actually being reasonable... and this is really all we have been asking of you... all this time. you're using key words like possibility... and key phrases like 'who knows'. ;)
and now you're being a moronic godbot again... bipolar between godbot and reasonable? or just a hypocrite when it comes to your special godfairy that touches you? ::)
Oh twisty twisty. ;) When I speak 'if', it is for your sense of understanding. Who is to say how and what process God used to create it all. Bang, form then chill on the seventh day. I say its possible that there could have been a bang in the creation.
Who is to say that couldnt possibly be? You?
Hey, if your gunna build a universe, where people are free to believe in creation, or just the big bang and evolution, better include that big bang on the order. ;) ;) And with a side of dinosaur bones to make it interesting. ;) ;D
Didnt I fire you in that other post? ;) Why are you still here? Oh yeah. Fools do that. ;)
Just because I read the Bible and believe it to be true, that gives you the right to harass and pester me for proofs? If you are not looking for God then you are just here to abuse. Otherwise, why be here? there is nothing for you, apparently. Nobody is filling in your method boxes. Not one. Yet you post them again and again. And again. :o
Your just here for the Christian beat down. Plain and simple. Its very transparent.
Mags
Quote from: hoptoad on October 13, 2012, 03:13:29 AM
The probability against existence, only remains for a god, since we are here and our existence is an actuality, and proven, rather than just a probability.
Also, one should never confuse probability and improbability with possibility or impossibility . They are not the same, and to say something is improbable does not automatically mean it is impossible. Nor does saying something is possible mean that it is probable.
Cheers
very well said! words have definitions for a reason and a purpose.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 03:18:40 AM
Oh twisty twisty. ;) When I speak 'if', it is for your sense of understanding. Who is to say how and what process God used to create it all. Bang, form then chill on the seventh day. I say its possible that there could have been a bang in the creation.
Who is to say that couldnt possibly be? You?
Hey, if your gunna build a universe, where people are free to believe in creation, or just the big bang and evolution, better include that big bang on the order. ;) ;) And with a side of dinosaur bones to make it interesting. ;) ;D
Didnt I fire you in that other post? ;) Why are you still here? Oh yeah. Fools do that. ;)
Mags
please present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and then present the methods you used to validate your gawd.
thank you for your cooperation... ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 03:18:40 AM
Just because I read the Bible and believe it to be true, that gives you the right to harass and pester me for proofs? If you are not looking for God then you are just here to abuse. Otherwise, why be here? there is nothing for you, apparently. Nobody is filling in your method boxes. Not one. Yet you post them again and again. And again. :o
Your just here for the Christian beat down. Plain and simple. Its very transparent.
Mags
you didn't "just read the bible and believe it to be true"... YOU CAME HERE AND STARTED VOMITING THE NONSENSE YOU BELIEVE AS UNIVERSAL FACT AND THEN PROCEEDED TO BULLY AND CURSE ANYONE WHO ASKED YOU FOR SUBSTANTIATION...
if you don't want people to laugh at your 'beliefs', don't have such silly 'beliefs'... or keep them to yourself. ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 01:57:40 AM
If God says he created it all.....
Please provide proof God said "he created it all"
Thus far they have seen no planets that show evidence or signs of life, if ever, so far.
Look around you. look at the vast variety of life. We have water, air and earth. We have just about everything we need in different elements, compounds gasses liquids, to do just about anything we can conjure up, or screw up. :o
We have all the edible plants, fruits, vegetables. Animals for meat, eggs, milk. We have water that all the plants, animals and we all need.
There is the sun that keeps us just around the right temperature for all life and elements to function well. A magnetic field and dense enough atmosphere to help against meteors and solar flare emissions.
They just found a planet that they believe is made of diamond. There is nothing there for us. Just like all the others so far. They have a few potentials, but thats a far throw to even know anything yet.
But here we are. We live on a planet that is described in the bible as if it were set like a ball that sits in air. The bible tells these things way before science or church claimed them correctly.
We have a book that says God created the heavens and the earth. Created the waters, plants animals and creepy things. ;] It says God created man and woman.
So what is wrong with believing that this all was just a big bang, random accident that the earth was a freak of perfection and filled with life?
Look around. You tell me. ;) Why do so many disbelieve the possibility soo much? Look around. What proofs do you see that this is all just an accident? A fluke? ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 03:28:32 AM
Thus far they have seen no planets that show evidence or signs of life, if ever, so far.
Look around you. look at the vast variety of life. We have water, air and earth. We have just about everything we need in different elements, compounds gasses liquids, to do just about anything we can conjure up, or screw up. :o
We have all the edible plants, fruits, vegetables. Animals for meat, eggs, milk. We have water that all the plants, animals and we all need.
There is the sun that keeps us just around the right temperature for all life and elements to function well. A magnetic field and dense enough atmosphere to help against meteors and solar flare emissions.
They just found a planet that they believe is made of diamond. There is nothing there for us. Just like all the others so far. They have a few potentials, but thats a far throw to even know anything yet.
But here we are. We live on a planet that is described in the bible as if it were set like a ball that sits in air. The bible tells these things way before science or church claimed them correctly.
We have a book that says God created the heavens and the earth. Created the waters, plants animals and creepy things. ;] It says God created man and woman.
So what is wrong with believing that this all was just a big bang, random accident that the earth was a freak of perfection and filled with life?
Look around. You tell me. ;) Why do so many disbelieve the possibility soo much? Look around. What proofs do you see that this is all just an accident? A fluke? ;)
Mags
ever heard of the anthropic principle? or did your indoctrination forbid you to read anything?
edit: i thought i would add this, it's from the wiki... the emphasis is mine.
"The term anthropic in "anthropic principle" has been argued [2] to be a misnomer.[3] While singling out our kind of carbon-based life, none of the finely tuned phenomena require human life or some kind of carbon chauvinism.[4][5]
Any form of intelligent life would do; so, specifying carbon-based life, per se, is irrelevant."
Is it a fluke? Stupid question. If we weren't here to observer the things you observe then no one could ask the question. Because we are here our little pinprick in the universe must support life.
As for life elsewhere in the universe. who knows. personally I think its highly likely. but I doubt we will ever discover it. its already gone, too far away or hasn't arrived yet.
Please stick to the question at hand stop trying to divert.
Provide proof that God "said" he made it all.
"i refuse to prove that i exist,’ says god, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"but" says wilby, "in matthew 19:26 you state that 'with god all things are possible...' how can i have have faith when you yourself has stated it's possible you don't exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"oh dear," says god, "i hadn't thought of that." and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 13, 2012, 01:36:41 AM
Has anyone tried to give a probability figure yet. Hmmm. Lets see. Most statistical probability is referenced to something that is quantatively known. Usually the broader the range of quantities known, the more accurate their use as references.
What can we use as a known statistical reference? The number of grains of sand on the earth compared to the number of stars in our galaxy.
What are the odds of another known planet in our galaxy having the same number of grains of sand (give or take a few billion for locale error). Given that our knowledge of any known planets around other stars is statistically miniscule compared to the number of stars in our milky way then we're already in hot water trying to give a probability even for that let alone a probability for the existence of a god.
It seems the only way to reference this is to look at the probability of our own existence. What's the probability of a whole universe springing into existence from nothing. ? Since "nothing" is infinite, the probability against creation of something from nothing is infinite. So too, the probability of a god springing into existence from nothing is the same. Infinite against.
But we do exist in a universe here and now, which is proved simply by our obvious being. So, we may have came into existence against infinite probability (assuming a universe beginning from nothing), but we cannot prove the same is true for a god when there is no explicit evidence in the here and now. The probability against remains infinite.
Cheers
yeah it was done a while ago... ;)
"it is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. however, not every one of them is inhabited. therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the universe can be said to be zero. from this it follows that the population of the whole universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination." - douglas adams, the restaurant at the end of the universe
since the population of the whole universe is zero... we can extrapolate the same for god, since he is merely the product of the deranged mind of a person who is merely the product of a deranged imagination. ;)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 03:28:32 AM
But here we are. We live on a planet that is described in the bible as if it were set like a ball that sits in air. The bible tells these things way before science or church claimed them correctly.
We have a book that says God created the heavens and the earth. Created the waters, plants animals and creepy things. ;] It says God created man and woman.
The book says that all that was created merely 10,000 (ten thousand) years ago. At least its followers believe that, based on biblical calculations. ;)
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 13, 2012, 03:40:59 AM
Please stick to the question at hand stop trying to divert.
Provide proof that God "said" he made it all.
Divert? OH, you must feel soo big and strong and push me around. Your a hoot. Like Im scared to reply to you. Youre the least of them.
I will say this. I have the Bible as proof for my end, what do you have for your end? Nothing but speculation and conjecture. I beat you out 1 to none on that point alone. What is left for you to argue? Or is this your thing and you are a beginner?
lol, its funny. We tell you how you can get to experience God and you refuse to even try.
What, are you embarrassed to get on your knees and try to pray? Too much pride? What, does it hurt? Do you feel pain? Feet get itchy? WHAT IS IT? What, its just too silly to be real?
The bible says there will be fools. And here we are in the midst of them. Wolves hungry for something. ;)
Hey, think what you will. And I will mine. But if you have a problem with mine, tuff luck son. Im not telling you what to do and what to provide answers to. Im not reaching out to you and asking you why you do and think the way you do. I owe you not one bit of anything. Nor you I.
If you just want to fight, cool. Bring it. Fools are easy. Speculate all you want. Its a cake walk in the park with popcorn and a movie. Be back tomorrow same channel same time. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 13, 2012, 04:04:01 AM
"i refuse to prove that i exist,’ says god, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"but" says wilby, "in matthew 19:26 you state that 'with god all things are possible...' how can i have have faith when you yourself has stated it's possible you don't exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"oh dear," says god, "i hadn't thought of that." and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.
I have know idea what youre saying. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Qwert on October 13, 2012, 04:29:49 AM
The book says that all that was created merely 10,000 (ten thousand) years ago. At least its followers believe that, based on biblical calculations.
Im missing the point.
Magzimus Leviticus.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 03:28:32 AM
But here we are. We live on a planet that is described in the bible as if it were set like a ball that sits in air. The bible tells these things way before science or church claimed them correctly.
We have a book that says God created the heavens and the earth. Created the waters, plants animals and creepy things. ;] It says God created man and woman.
but... here we are, on a planet that is described in the Ainulindalë as if it were set like a ball that sits in the air. the Ainulindalë tells of these things way before the bible or church usurped them.
we have a book that says Ilúvatar created the heavens and the earth. created the waters, plants, animals and creepy things. it says Ilúvatar created man and woman.
But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: ’Behold your Music!’ And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: ’Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.’And the Valar drew unto them many companions, some less, some well nigh as great as themselves, and they laboured together in the ordering of the Earth and the curbing of its tumults. Then Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and that the Earth was becoming as a garden for their delight, for its turmoils were subdued. His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.
Thus began the first battle of the Valar with Melkor for the dominion of Arda; and of those tumults the Elves know but little. For what has here been declared is come from the Valar themselves, with whom the Eldalië spoke in the land of Valinor, and by whom they were instructed; but little would the Valar ever tell of the wars before the coming of the Elves. Yet it is told among the Eldar that the Valar endeavoured ever, in despite of Melkor, to rule the Earth and to prepare it for the coming of the Firstborn; and they built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them; and naught might have peace or come to lasting growth, for as surely as the Valar began a labour so would Melkor undo it or corrupt it. And yet their labour was not all in vain; and though nowhere and in no work was their will and purpose wholly fulfilled, and all things were in hue and shape other than the Valar had at first intended, slowly nonetheless the Earth was fashioned and made firm. And thus was the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar established at the last in the Deeps of Time and amidst the innumerable stars.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 13, 2012, 04:14:35 AM
yeah it was done a while ago... ;)
"it is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. however, not every one of them is inhabited. therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the universe can be said to be zero. from this it follows that the population of the whole universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination." - douglas adams, the restaurant at the end of the universe
since the population of the whole universe is zero... we can extrapolate the same for god, since he is merely the product of the deranged mind of a person who is merely the product of a deranged imagination. ;)
A hypothesis by Douglas Adams ::)
And speculation by the Fool. ;)
I see nothing there that proves that God does not exist. I know you are playing that card as if it is. ;)
Ok what else ya got? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 04:32:57 AM
I will say this. I have the Bible as proof for my end, what do you have for your end? Nothing but speculation and conjecture. I beat you out 1 to none on that point alone. What is left for you to argue? Or is this your thing and you are a beginner?
Magzimus Leviticus
So your proof is a book written by man. Your arguments are to repeat the arguments uttered by other people. You have no basis for your faith except to choose to believe what others say.
Which is as I have said earlier the reason for so many different religions. And why people choose a religion which suits there own internal purposes or that they have been indoctrinated in.
You have no proof that what you have been taught and choose to believe is the truth.
"The book says that all that was created merely 10,000 (ten thousand) years ago. At least its followers believe that, based on biblical calculations."
Verifiably false. Therefore the book is verifiably false.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 05:04:28 AM
A hypothesis by Douglas Adams ::)
And speculation by the Fool. ;)
I see nothing there that proves that God does not exist. I know you are playing that card as if it is. ;)
Ok what else ya got? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
it is proven... and here is the evidence:
42
when you ask the wrong questions, or in your case, none at all... the answers don't really mean anything.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 13, 2012, 05:05:17 AM
So your proof is a book written by man. Your arguments are to repeat the arguments uttered by other people. You have no basis for your faith except to choose to believe what others say.
Which is as I have said earlier the reason for so many different religions. And why people choose a religion which suits there own internal purposes or that they have been indoctrinated in.
You have no proof that what you have been taught and choose to believe is the truth.
"The book says that all that was created merely 10,000 (ten thousand) years ago. At least its followers believe that, based on biblical calculations."
Verifiably false. Therefore the book is verifiably false.
Oh, so your saying that since it has been verified that the earth has been in existence for way more than 10k years, the book must be false?
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 05:15:01 AM
Oh, so your saying that since it has been verified that the earth has been in existence for way more than 10k years, the book must be false?
Mags
Yes!
But to eloborate.
Creationists believe the book is a matter of fact and the earth has only existed for a short time period.
But maybe you choose not to be a creationist. Therefore you are saying I'll choose a different version of events (to creationists).
Now you should be able to see the problem. The book is interpreted differently by different people. Therefore there are different religions. some which differ on a few minor points. Some which differ on major points. Some that do not see eye to eye at all.
But how does anyone know their version of the truth is the correct one?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 13, 2012, 12:51:25 AM
And you still have everything backwards. No one has to prove that religion is wrong. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It is up to theists to prove that their outlandish claims are right. For example, if you posit there is an afterlife, well explain how you know this. And old Jewish fairy tales do not count, or I can start trotting out Lord of the Rings as evidence.
Who is talking about religion? I am talking about spiritualism and probality of God.
Science is quest for truth and spiritualism is also quest for truth. Sceince's quest is about visible world which is explainable. Spiritualism's quest is about invisible world which cannot be explained but only be realised.
Newton wrote about absolute time, absolute space etc. But Einstein denied the notion of absolute and said everything is relativistic and nothing is absolute. Tomorrow some other scientist may say that everything is just an illusion. Which means that scientists are not clear about what they are talking about. So why should we trust these scientists when they say God does not exist?. They should give clear picture of everything before coming to conclusion.
Quote from: Newton II on October 13, 2012, 08:44:45 AM
They should give clear picture of everything before coming to conclusion.
and yet you don't apply this same standard to ANY of the asinine unsubstantiated claims you have made in this thread... ::) nor any of the asinine unsubstantiated claims of the religulous like; chet. mags, bruce, tito, etc., etc.
furthermore, since you are claiming to be speaking ONLY of spiritualism and probability of god.... (you're not, you liar, as evidenced by this post of yours.)
Quote from: Newton II on October 12, 2012, 07:17:57 PM
With the present day's scientific knowledge can you create atleast one house fly in the laboratory without using cells of another fly?
with your present spiritual knowledge can you create at least one house fly in the laboratory without using cells of another fly?can you demonstrate that your 'probable' god can create at least one house fly without using cells of another fly?these two VERY SIMPLE QUESTIONS require nothing more from you than a 'yes' or a 'no'... do you think you can manage to answer them?
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 04:48:16 AM
Im missing the point.
Magzimus Leviticus.
According to strict Bible followers, the age of the Universe is somewhat about ten thousand years, what is somewhat different to official science hypothesis which calculates the age for several billion years (since the Big Bang). Which one is the true one?
Hi Mags, and other Faithers,
I have put "Faithers" into caps at the start because I LOVE that word. I wish to mention a few things that the "others" refuse to look at or mention, they just repeat themselves over and over again, as if they can equate repetiion with intellect. LOL Too bad, as we say in Texas, "That dog don't hunt!"
I wish to lay out in order relative thought for this argument. I with to speak to you all because I feel the need to speak with those who have understanding... ;)
First, is our testimony. The bible says that the devil is defeated by the blood of the lamb (Jesus) and by the word of our testimony. The "others" can howl at the wind, until the chickens come home to roost, but NOTHING they say can argue with a "changed life". And everyone who has had a personal experience with the saving grace (unmerited favor) has a personal testimony of a changed life. Now, in the court of law, every word is established by the mouth of two or three witness's. When BILLIONS, throughout the ages have testified of a changed heart and a changed life, for some reason, that testimony is no good.
If 10 people, 100, people, 1000 people, 10,000 people all were to say, "Hey, we saw a UFO!" We may argue about WHAT the UFO is, but no one would in fact attempt to convince 10,000 people that they did not see what they plainly saw. So, my point is, is that this is no different. EXCEPT, here we have BILLIONS of changed lives saying, "Hey, this receiving of Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour is the REAL DEAL!" And so it tickles me when a few "others" come along and try to disqualify the unified voices of "FAITHERS". (LOVE, love, love that term!!)
Next, I wish to address the issue of faith. It is AMAZING how many people take so much on faith everyday, yet they don't think twice about it. But, apply that "faith" to the things of the Kingdom of God, and they again, begin to howl at the wind. This too tickles me. Let's take but ONE avenue of this thought. Maxwell's equation. Most here don't have the math skills to verify the math themselves, and those that do have the math skills, don't take the time. No, instead they take it on "faith" that it is correct, based on the fact that others say it is correct and if it were not correct, someone else would have found that error and said something. So they have "faith" it is correct, yet have not verified their ownselves. Faith is taking anothers word on things or about things that one can not verify oneself, or does not choose to verify for whatever reason. I used the example of the "brain" earlier and I'm not sure many understood the point I was making. The point is this..... You believe you have a physical brain based on "reason", based on the fact that everyone else of your species has one, and theirs has sometimes been x rayed or operated upon, or autopsied. Yet, IN FACT, they have never seen, felt nor heard their own brain tissue, but must accept the "reasonings of others" and their "OWN experience" of which points to the fact that they indeed have a brain. So in fact, they are operating of faith.
So, now, when I take the subject of a changed life, based upon what I have experienced and confirmed by the testimony of BILLIONS of others, that is not to be believed? This too tickles me, if not so sad.
Next, let us take to them the evidence of BIBLE PROPHECY. This they ignore, and glaze over, which tells me they REALLY are not interested in persuing truth, because the ramification of what they find they may not like. This is not real science at all but pseudo science at best, trying to make science fit their own preconceptions of reality and anything that would challange that must be ridiculed and scorned. If there were no TRUE God of the Bible, then not a SINGLE uttered prophecy would have been fulfilled, accurately, except by chance. BUT again, since Bible Prophecy is ACCURATE 100% of the time, this presents a problem. How could it possibly be accurate? Time traveler? Coincidence? OR TRUE GOD! But this brings them back to the paradox. If they begin to examine this with unbiased thinking, they are likely to not like what they find because it does not fit their own preconceptions. So their only option is to ignore and ridicule. This is NOT the persuit of TRUTH (science in their venecular).
Lastly, we should remove the kickstand upon which their real golden idol lay, and that is the perpetuated lie of evolution and that man has evolved from some primal scum or from big foots cousin. Though the actions and reasonings of some, one might argue this statement is true (sarcasm) alas it is not. Let us take the simple example of a fish, evolving to have legs and then walking out of the sea. From step 1, a fish, to step 2, a fish with legs walking out of the ocean, would require in the evolutionist mind, millions of years. There would HAVE TO BE a fossil record NOT JUST of a fish, then one of a fish with legs, but a fossil record of EVERY STEP ALONG THIS EVOLUTIONARY PATH.
But this is where it "REALLY GETS CRAZY", one would need a fossil table of such magnitude, not just for ONE species but FOR EVERY species. Can CREATED (by the Word of God) things "adapt" (evolve) to adapt better to their habitat over the course of time? Yes.. But to "adapt" is a far cry from "changing from one species to another". This too tickles me.
Lastly, and this also tickles me, the "others" can look at a SIMPLE arrowhead and recognize that probably an indian somewhere made it. Ask them why, and they say, that it has "design" and the waves and wind and time, might get something to look like a triangle, but this has design. NOW, show them a picture of a human being with all of our millions of intricate parts, all working in perfect unity and purpose, and they say, "NO DESIGN". Next show them the awesomeness and splendor of the universe, and they say, "NO DESIGN". etcetera, ad nausua. So again, this goes to the point above, THEY DONT WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH because of the fear of what they might find.
I used to be an "other" and argue as a teenager, as they do now. Thanks be to God, through His risen Son, Jesus Christ, who in His Grace (undeserved favor) has removed the blinders from my eyes and allowed me to see. For truly, I once was lost but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see.
Oh, and P.S., the bible does NOT teach that the earth is 6000 years old, though some believers erroneously contend that, but it is simply because they have taken others words for it and not studied the scripture (in the Hebrew for old testament) for themselves and do not rightly divide the word of truth on this matter.
And I actually don't write to this board to "debate" the other posters, but to plant some good seeds in the hearts of the other readers, who indeed may earnestly be seeking truth and fulfillment in their life. A life devoid of faith in God or in his son Jesus Christ, is a life that has no hope of eternal life. And when people are without hope and without God, this is hoplessness. And I would wish that upon no one. What a sad and dried up life that once was....
Walking with Him always! :)
Bruce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AasMl1f1Qs&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9DX9fYWb291yPaHBRiYmpbY&playnext=8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AasMl1f1Qs&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9DX9fYWb291yPaHBRiYmpbY&playnext=8)
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 13, 2012, 12:58:43 PM
Oh, and P.S., the bible does NOT teach that the earth is 6000 years old, though some believers erroneously contend that, but it is simply because they have taken others words for it and not studied the scripture (in the Hebrew for old testament) for themselves and do not rightly divide the word of truth on this matter.
B_TPU, I guess, your data is taken just from thin air. Here are my results, after Google-ing "universe age in hebrew bible" - just first three examples:
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c002.html
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2901/jewish/How-Old-is-the-Universe-According-to-Judaism.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology
Quote from: Qwert on October 13, 2012, 12:10:11 PM
According to strict Bible followers, the age of the Universe is somewhat about ten thousand years, what is somewhat different to official science hypothesis which calculates the age for several billion years (since the Big Bang). Which one is the true one?
:) But, if(in your mind) God is able to create the universe, would it be only a seemingly fresh universe that takes millions or even billions of years to get to this point, or could he have created in with 'age' built in from the start? ;)
God set the stage. Infinite universe. Dinosaurs, Cro-magnon, Neanderthal, so the stage is set, along with a few huge asteroid hits and all the complex things that would make up a case for evolution a possible thought. ;)
In your mind, do you imagine that if there is that kind of intelligence that could create all this, wouldnt you say they did a pretty good job of it?
All im saying is, if you want to argue between creation time line and what science says of that time line, is it that hard to believe that if creation did happen, that it could have happened with all the ingredients that would include millions or billions of years of events including the big bang?
So the scientific timeline can be true either way, to scientists. If a stage is set, who is to say that it wasnt?
So what proof is there that says creation is impossible? ;) ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 03:56:22 PM
:) But, if(in your mind) God is able to create the universe, would it be only a seemingly fresh universe that takes millions or even billions of years to get to this point, or could he have created in with 'age' built in from the start? ;)
God set the stage. Infinite universe. Dinosaurs, Cro-magnon, Neanderthal, so the stage is set, along with a few huge asteroid hits and all the complex things that would make up a case for evolution a possible thought. ;)
In your mind, do you imagine that if there is that kind of intelligence that could create all this, wouldnt you say they did a pretty good job of it?
All im saying is, if you want to argue between creation time line and what science says of that time line, is it that hard to believe that if creation did happen, that it could have happened with all the ingredients that would include millions or billions of years of events including the big bang?
So the scientific timeline can be true either way, to scientists. If a stage is set, who is to say that it wasnt?
So what proof is there that says creation is impossible? ;) ;D
Mags
This has been explained many times. No one needs to furnish proof that creation is impossible. Assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
By your logic, maybe we are only 5 minutes old. Who knows? Maybe we were created with all our memories and so forth. All of this is possible, though highly improbable. This is a conversation-ender, as there is no way to tell, or do you have a way?
The creation story flies against existing scientific evidence as to age of the earth. Do you have any evidence for why the creation scenario is more likely than a 4 billion old earth scenario?
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 03:56:22 PM
So what proof is there that says creation is impossible? ;) ;D
Mags
I agree entirely with you. I never said that I negate possibility of God, even creation. I negate the Bible as the text straight from God. Thus, I negate religious notion of God. Also, see my previous post, just above yours.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 13, 2012, 12:58:43 PM
Next, let us take to them the evidence of BIBLE PROPHECY. This they ignore, and glaze over, which tells me they REALLY are not interested in persuing truth, because the ramification of what they find they may not like. This is not real science at all but pseudo science at best, trying to make science fit their own preconceptions of reality and anything that would challange that must be ridiculed and scorned. If there were no TRUE God of the Bible, then not a SINGLE uttered prophecy would have been fulfilled, accurately, except by chance. BUT again, since Bible Prophecy is ACCURATE 100% of the time, this presents a problem. How could it possibly be accurate? Time traveler? Coincidence? OR TRUE GOD! But this brings them back to the paradox. If they begin to examine this with unbiased thinking, they are likely to not like what they find because it does not fit their own preconceptions. So their only option is to ignore and ridicule. This is NOT the persuit of TRUTH (science in their venecular).
Hey Bruce, why doesn't the Bible actually have useful predictions in it. How useful would it have been to know about viruses and bacteria? What about the concept of zero? Table of the elements? Anything that would actually help humanity in a practical way.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 13, 2012, 04:08:11 PM
This has been explained many times. No one needs to furnish proof that creation is impossible. Assertions without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
By your logic, maybe we are only 5 minutes old. Who knows? Maybe we were created with all our memories and so forth. All of this is possible, though highly improbable. This is a conversation-ender, as there is no way to tell, or do you have a way?
The creation story flies against existing scientific evidence as to age of the earth. Do you have any evidence for why the creation scenario is more likely than a 4 billion old earth scenario?
Hey Eaten
Its not a conversation ender really. ;D Possible but improbable? I and many many others find it possible but improbable of evolution.
So I stand on this side of the wall, and you on the other. I am happy with what I believe and know, and you are not happy with what I claim to believe and claim to know. If you strictly dont believe or even want to know, then why bother me about it? Why the continuous argument? Especially if you have not even tried to really find out for your self. But for some reason you and others only trust and look for answers scientifically instead of going straight for the source.
Thats like trying to build a magnet motor with no magnets. ;D ;)
Mags
Quote from: Qwert on October 13, 2012, 04:10:08 PM
I agree entirely with you. I never said that I negate possibility of God, even creation. I negate the Bible as the text straight from God. Thus, I negate religious notion of God. Also, see my previous post, just above yours.
Thats your choice. How ever you came to that conclusion. My conclusions are different.
Mags
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 13, 2012, 12:58:43 PM
Hi Mags, and other Faithers,
Hey Bruce. ;]
Great stuff there. ;) ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 05:30:26 PM
So I stand on this side of the wall, and you on the other. I am happy with what I believe and know, and you are not happy with what I claim to believe and claim to know. If you strictly dont believe or even want to know, then why bother me about it? Why the continuous argument? Especially if you have not even tried to really find out for your self. But for some reason you and others only trust and look for answers scientifically instead of going straight for the source.
You are always shifting the burden. Now you are asserting that I am somehow bothering you? How am I bothering you?
This is a discussion board, and we are discussing the topic at hand. No one is forcing you to participate, if it bothers you to do so. I am not harassing you at home, trying to get you to convert to atheism.
So if you are happy to cling to your iron-age mythology and the birght light of truth and science bothers you, don't participate in debate topics.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 13, 2012, 05:41:39 PM
You are always shifting the burden. Now you are asserting that I am somehow bothering you? How am I bothering you?
This is a discussion board, and we are discussing the topic at hand. No one is forcing you to participate, if it bothers you to do so. I am not harassing you at home, trying to get you to convert to atheism.
So if you are happy to cling to your iron-age mythology and the birght light of truth and science bothers you, don't participate in debate topics.
And I am not harassing you at home.
I say God exists as shown in the Bible. Then you present your arguments, I present a way for you to find out for yourself and refuse to do so. What more can I do?
Mags
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 13, 2012, 04:33:08 PM
Hey Bruce, why doesn't the Bible actually have useful predictions in it. How useful would it have been to know about viruses and bacteria? What about the concept of zero? Table of the elements? Anything that would actually help humanity in a practical way.
Ahh, my friend, but you have indeed hit the proverbial nail on the head. All of the prophecies concerning the coming of the messiah are to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus IS the real and NOT an imposter.
Now, this is the really crazy part! There ARE prophecies in the Bible that could help humanity. But herein lies the problem, our definition of "help". God's definition of "help" is saving lost humanity from eternal death and damnation and "from the wrath to come". If you define "help humanity" in the equivilent manner, then let me tell you, that there is coming such a time of trouble for this world, the likes of which it has never seen (according to SPECIFIC Bible prophecies) and if God had not shortened those seven years, He says, "no flesh would be saved."
These Bible prophecies tie in the illuminati cards and the great deception of mankind that we are just now beginning to witness.
I would gladly share these things, but only if individuals are interested in seeking "truth", where ever it may lead.
Lastly, I want to repeat for everyone here, that I stated in my last post, that NOWHERE in the Bible does it state that either the earth nor UNIVERVSE is only 6,000 years old. The "creation" story of Genesis is really a "re-creation" or "re-newal" and only certain things were "created" at that time. ALL things were created by the Word of God in the "ageless past", but Genesis also has what is called acts of permission given to formerly created things. This too I would share in depth if someone expressed an interest in "truth" regardless of where it leads.
And lastly, I have yet to even touch on yet another point of "evidence" of the "probability of God". The fact that Jesus went about doing good, healing all that were oppressed and sick. Driving out demons, for they bow to the mighty name of Jesus Christ of Nazereth. He also raised the dead. There was NEVER a funeral, that he did not "break up" by raising the dead.
Now this is where it really gets crazy! That true believers "faithers", in HIS name, have the power to do the same thing. To heal the sick, to preach deliverance to the captives and the recovering of sight to the blind. To set at liberty them that have been bruised, and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord! (Bible prophecy) This is done by the POWER of the Holy Spirit in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Also, believers, millions and millions around the world, like me, have received the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Evidenced with the speaking of tongues. A NEW and HOLY prayer language the Holy Spirit gives to them that ask him. Not ALL believers have asked but those who have, have this power.
God supernaturally gave me this power and this gift over 30 years ago. It is real and I use this "gift" everyday of my life. It has many purposes, this gift of "tongues".
I have personally laid hands on many hundreds in many countries, of believers who also wanted the gift of the Holy Spirit and I have seen, as they asked Jesus to submerge them with the Holy Spirit, that they too spoke with tongues and prophecied. Miraculous stuff!
I have seen demons cast out and I have cast out demons. I could tell you stories that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. One such a man, is to this day Pastoring a Church in Louisiana. Full of demons, until the night we all prayed and the Lord Jesus Christ delivered him and saved him!
I have seen the dead raised, on ONE occasion, through the name of Jesus Christ.
I have seen blind eyes open, I have seen deaf ears open, I have seen people with curvature of the spine healed and have the photos of the before and after X rays, to this day. All through the mighty name of Jesus. I have had the Lord speak to me on more occasions than I can count. I have been given prophecies, had my own body healed twice.
But the GREATEST miracle, was that he saved me and changed my evil, vile heart of darkness and adopted me into His Kingdom, where I can now call him, "father" or "papa". :)
Walking with Him,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 13, 2012, 06:23:53 PM
snip... God's definition of "help" is saving lost humanity from eternal death and damnation and "from the wrath to come".
snip...
Gee, aren't we lucky, we are to be saved from the "wrath to come". And where is that wrath allegedly coming from ? From the biblical god of course! Another classic case of emotional blackmail - I'll help you to live and act as I say, so I can save you from my wrath!
Quote from: hoptoad on October 13, 2012, 06:32:56 PM
Gee, aren't we lucky, we are to be saved from the "wrath to come". And where is that wrath allegedly coming from ? From the biblical god of course! Another classic case of emotional blackmail - I'll help you to live and act as I say, so I can save you from my wrath!
Nope, not emotional blackmail, for emotion has nothing to do with it. Humanity are "law breakers". Do you think that the God of the entire universe, the auther of all laws of said universe, those discovered and those yet to be discovered, would not Himself be subject to certain laws, or "covenants" if you may? A few attributes of God that you should know. He can NOT lie. He IS Holy. And law breaking humanity has NO part in His Kingdom. Ahh, but you see He LOVES His Creation, so he made a way of "debt removal". You think that God wants you to serve him or else, when in reality, the "or else is a given", but God So loves you, he made a possablilty for escape. You don't even have to "do anything." For man is not saved by good deeds but by faith in the name. The Name of Jesus Christ. For there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. It is NOT the will of God that we should perish, but that ALL men should be saved. He loves you SO MUCH that he sent his only son to die for our sins. Would we send our only son to die on behalf of anyone, voluntarily? NEVER. Who then can fathom the love of God? For neither height nor depth, nor trouble in this life can seperate us from the love of God.
Walking with Him,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 13, 2012, 06:48:56 PM
Nope, not emotional blackmail, for emotion has nothing to do with it.
snip ...
Wrath
is an emotional expression of an emotional state.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 13, 2012, 06:48:56 PM
Nope, not emotional blackmail, for emotion has nothing to do with it. Humanity are "law breakers". Do you think that the God of the entire universe, the auther of all laws of said universe, those discovered and those yet to be discovered, would not Himself be subject to certain laws, or "covenants" if you may? A few attributes of God that you should know. He can NOT lie. He IS Holy. And law breaking humanity has NO part in His Kingdom. Ahh, but you see He LOVES His Creation, so he made a way of "debt removal". You think that God wants you to serve him or else, when in reality, the "or else is a given", but God So loves you, he made a possablilty for escape. You don't even have to "do anything." For man is not saved by good deeds but by faith in the name. The Name of Jesus Christ. For there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. It is NOT the will of God that we should perish, but that ALL men should be saved. He loves you SO MUCH that he sent his only son to die for our sins. Would we send our only son to die on behalf of anyone, voluntarily? NEVER. Who then can fathom the love of God? For neither height nor depth, nor trouble in this life can seperate us from the love of God.
Walking with Him,
Bruce
What a load of nonsense. Jesus is also god, according to theory, so he did not send his son, he sent an iteration of himself, which he knew could not die (it was god, duh). So not much of a sacrifice. He could create 100 more Jesuses before breakfast if he wanted to.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 13, 2012, 08:39:00 PM
What a load of nonsense. Jesus is also god, according to theory, so he did not send his son, he sent an iteration of himself, which he knew could not die (it was god, duh). So not much of a sacrifice. He could create 100 more Jesuses before breakfast if he wanted to.
You cannot argue faith with logic. By its definition faith precludes logic.
Which is why its really odd that believers try to argue logic to support their faith. It cannot work.
Faithers only believe in their own version of faith.
For example those of the Jewish faith, christian faith and those who follow Muhummad, Beleive in the one (same) God. Yet only one of them believes Jesus was the son of God. and the other two rather than finding commonality in their beliefs hate each other.
All three claim their truth is the real truth because God tells them individually it is so. So which one is telling the truth? My own parents couldn't decide, so to solve the dilemma they joined a religious group that is both Jewish and believes Jesus is the son of God. its called Messianic Judaism.
So now this little trio has birthed a child, Messianic Judaism. and they claim that God tells them individually that they are the ones who know the truth and everyone else is wrong.
And then there are those who can't settle on their own version of faith. They call them selves spiritualists as if that makes a jot of difference.
Spiritiualists say they deal with the things science can't deal with. That shows a level of ignorance beyond compare. Science deals in all things. physical or "apparently" metaphysical.
In actual fact a Spiritiualist like the idea of religion but don't want the boundaries religions impose. In most religions I know of you cannot cross the divide of death (except Jesus, oh and lazerus). Spiritualists don't like that so they reject it and claim you can. so a spiritualist beleives whatever is convenient for that spiritiualist, No guidelines so they can never be wrong. What a simple world they live in.
In science there is only things we already know (theorise about). And things we are yet to discover.
One thing faithers cannot grasp. In Science we do not pretend to know the truth. We only allow ourselves to refine our knowledge. When science claims it knows the truth its an indication that those that utter it are forming a a religion and should be ignored.
There of course exceptions to this rule. Theories science has never been able to falsify, which in turn can be used to predict (unlike bible predictions which are only predicted post the actual event) other things which are not immediately obvious. One of those unbreakable theories is of course conservation of energy. these things then move to the status of law. because so far they have proved physically impossible to break AND (important) they predict other non obvious things.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 13, 2012, 10:05:47 PM
You cannot argue faith with logic. By its definition faith precludes logic.
Which is why its really odd that believers try to argue logic to support their faith. It cannot work.
Faithers only believe in their own version of faith.
For example those of the Jewish faith, christian faith and those who follow Muhummad, Beleive in the one (same) God. Yet only one of them believes Jesus was the son of God. and the other two rather than finding commonality in their beliefs hate each other.
All three claim their truth is the real truth because God tells them individually it is so. So which one is telling the truth? My own parents couldn't decide, so to solve the dilemma they joined a religious group that is both Jewish and believes Jesus is the son of God. its called Messianic Judaism.
So now this little trio has birthed a child, Messianic Judaism. and they claim that God tells them individually that they are the ones who know the truth and everyone else is wrong.
And then there are those who can't settle on their own version of faith. They call them selves spiritualists as if that makes a jot of difference.
Spiritiualists say they deal with the things science can't deal with. That shows a level of ignorance beyond compare. Science deals in all things. physical or "apparently" metaphysical.
In actual fact a Spiritiualist like the idea of religion but don't want the boundaries religions impose. In most religions I know of you cannot cross the divide of death (except Jesus, oh and lazerus). Spiritualists don't like that so they reject it and claim you can. so a spiritualist beleives whatever is convenient for that spiritiualist, No guidelines so they can never be wrong. What a simple world they live in.
In science there is only things we already know (theorise about). And things we are yet to discover.
One thing faithers cannot grasp. In Science we do not pretend to know the truth. We only allow ourselves to refine our knowledge. When science claims it knows the truth its an indication that those that utter it are forming a a religion and should be ignored.
There of course exceptions to this rule. Theories science has never been able to falsify, which in turn can be used to predict (unlike bible predictions which are only predicted post the actual event) other things which are not immediately obvious. One of those unbreakable theories is of course conservation of energy. these things then move to the status of law. because so far they have proved physically impossible to break AND (important) they predict other non obvious things.
Well said, Chris. You are a gentleman and a scholar.
Sigh
Old habits die hard...........
A perspective that has not been forwarded here.
And definately one book I would read!
From Saint Buzz [he loves Pasta]
Quote:
What if there is a religious text that is so mathematically complex, so scientifically perfect, that no mortal could possibly have written it? Would that be evidence of a God? The fact of the matter is, that text does exist and from a purely scientific perspective, there is nothing more fascinating that I have ever examined.
Most mortals such as Wilby are just to simple to recognize it exists. Had Einstein not polluted the mathematical relationship between light and gravity, you would by now be coming to the conclusion that you are a fractal of a universe and nature creates through fractals. With a firm understanding of relativity under one foot and a solid understanding of fractal geometry under the other foot, at a fundamental level you know everything in the universe.
Those that would assign everything to God and those that would deny God regardless of the evidence are two half wits of the same non-functioning mind. Wilby's lack of knowledge of ancient history prevent him from noticing the great pyramid is both an observatory and a calender of the future placed on this Earth by higher beings thousands of years ago. Knowledge is like the tide, it ebbs and flows. The deluges wipe the Earth clean of half wits every 12,995.5 years along with the technology and knowledge they possessed.
Wilby would probably deny higher beings created life on this Earth while claiming those pyramids were build by 100,000 men pulling on a giant rope. The graven images of helicopters, jets and radiolytic medicine capable of curing all disease somehow escape his attention.
If God is real, no belief is necessary and no belief is necessary if you understand the science and history of God. I'm writing a book on the subject right now and so I won't tip my hand. The book is full evidence that cannot be denied.
Those that suppress this knowledge through various means do so to keep the masses confused, divided and conquered. The persona of pure evil that exists on this Earth for a short moment more are doomed to become a burning diamond in the sky soon enough. Are you listening Hartman?
Wilby is nothing more than a tool in someone else's shed and a dull one at that. He is a one trick pony obsessed with the term "logical fallacy" and in the process blinds himself to the mysteries far greater than science could or would ever acknowledge exist.
I don't know who he has a beef with and I am certainly not going to bother myself reading the typical dribble that comes with a thread like this. What I do know is that text exists, is written like the layers of an onion and contains an equal distant skip code. I surely doubt any mortal could have written that.
You find science and history being taught with the same exact words. Also within those words, you find a code that intimates this is the beginning of what God has to say to you. You find a forth layer and that is far too sacred for the mortals that ply these muddy waters. That text is the Torah written in Hebrew.
No human is capable of encoding the mind of God and ultimately no belief is necessary, quite the opposite is true. Knowledge is the key to understanding God but you can't see what is written unless you already have that knowledge. This is how God sorts the wheat from the chaff.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth and the Earth was void and without form." Wilby would see that as history too stupid to realize that is also a description of matter.
"Then God said let there be light". Again the mouth breather sees the first layer - history. He is not capable of realizing that mass is matter in a gravitational field and that non-polarized toroidal vacuum energy is produced by the Sun in a form such as static electricity. It is that gravity that pulls matter down to mass. E=mc2 just happens to represent that vacuum energy that condenses matter down to mass. Without the Sun, we would entropy back to matter in the same way half of Wilby's brain did as a result of severe alcohol abuse.
"Then God divided the light from the darkness" You were just taught right thumb rule as the Earth begins to rotate and so on. The relationship between light, gravity and electricity are in plain sight if you are enlightened.
Saint Buzz, the God of free energy sent to enlighten you hath spoken. Where's my missing stars bitches? I want my stolen stars back!
Saint Buzz hath returned to the heavens to bask in the light of what is left of his useless overunity gold stars. Go forth and be a half wit no more.
--------------------------------------------
A small Paypal donation to Saint Buzz's favorite orphan fund is highly recommended. 100% of the donation goes to the children that sleep on a concrete floor and need medical care and other necessities. Please mention Saint Buzz in the Paypal note. This I command upon you.
expatshelpingkidsinecuador@yahoo.com
http://leighfrost-olon.blogspot.com/2012/05/expats-helping-kids-in-ecuador.html (http://leighfrost-olon.blogspot.com/2012/05/expats-helping-kids-in-ecuador.html)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 13, 2012, 05:35:03 PM
Thats your choice. How ever you came to that conclusion. My conclusions are different.
Mags
Some of my previous posts in this thread explain my point:
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg340214/#msg340214 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg340214/#msg340214)
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339722/#msg339722 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339722/#msg339722)
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339547/#msg339547 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339547/#msg339547)
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339434/#msg339434 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339434/#msg339434)
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339424/#msg339424 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339424/#msg339424)
http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339178/#msg339178 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg339178/#msg339178)
However, there are more objections on my mind which need more time to elaborate. Meanwhile I introduce some links which are in this subject:
http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm (http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm)
http://bligbi.com/2007/03/09/10-reasons-not-to-believe-the-bible/ (http://bligbi.com/2007/03/09/10-reasons-not-to-believe-the-bible/)
http://truth-saves.com/why-the-bible-is-false/ (http://truth-saves.com/why-the-bible-is-false/)
http://www.africaw.com/forum/f3/is-the-bible-right-or-wrong-full-of-t2175/ (http://www.africaw.com/forum/f3/is-the-bible-right-or-wrong-full-of-t2175/)
Quote from: ramset on October 13, 2012, 11:08:11 PM
Sigh
If God created people, he should know what kind of form is understandable to them. Since the interpretations of the Bible change over time, it's clear it's not the text that religions claim.
edit
As I said in one of my previous posts, all living species have their own "Bible", it is genetic code.
Also, a useful link to this discussion:
http://wilstar.com/theories.htm
at least 19,000 some odd have read the question... fact is, only faith, or lack there of, followed by death will ever provide the answer ...
IN The Beginning God Created Heavens and Earth. Genesis 1:1
Beginning=TIME
Heavens=Space
Earth=Matter
What else is there in the entire KNOWN universe? Do you not find it unusual that it is spelled out in Line one of His word? In any case, nothing else matters ... Except that someone, GOD, had to create or make it .. The next time you walk into any produce department in any large store, stop 1 minute, be silent and look. ... for anyone to logically think that the diversity seen with variety of texture and taste and smell for us to eat all the different things before them ..."JUST HAPPEND" now add to that all these living things having ability to procreated "just happened" ... that notion is pretty daft ..... in my opinion. You either believe..or you do not..
Hi everyone good day! :)
I want to share this to all of you.
Since we are all not present in the creation even wilby, so NO one could say "There is no God"
cause the BIBLE IS THE ONLY MATERIAL THAT TESTIFY GOD EXIST!
I want you to use your logic, cause you are thinking too deep, and because of that you are overlooking the simple piece of cake meaning of it all.
Like in OU research: You are thinking too much. ;D
First: let say if you are the God, the supreme powerful. WILL YOU LET ANYONE TO DESTROY OR LET ANYONE TO RUIN YOUR SACRED WORDS?. JUST USE SIMPLE COMMON SENSE OK?
just imagine everyone how small we are, like a microbe on earth. but because He loves us very much He gave his only begotten son just for us to be save.That is if we accept JESUS.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html)
IF STILL YOU CAN'T GET IT THEN I DON'T KNOW TO YOU!!! LIKE IN OU ;D
You know what ?, as i am making typing this post, i observe my fingers, they work perfectly with my eye and brain, i really can't accept that I wasn't really made by God and just an accident!!!
as i am breathing inhale exhale oxygen, carbon in my body wow i'm very high tech made. everything moves accordingly good in my body. a really perfect design that we could think of. :D
A human can design a robot but God design a human. logic wilby, logic.
Want to find God everyone? Then Have Faith first then you will see. ;)
Do you think if there is no God, The Bible can reach this far?
And do you think you are still alive today if there is no God? for the devil wants us all be killed and suffer. God Loves you, not yet too late there is still chance, be change Read the BIBLE, THE ONLY MATERIAL WE CAN TRUST BE HUMBLE WILBY.
ooops. wilby, i edit it not because i made some changes but made an addition for the sake of all. ok?!! >:(
sorry for my english, i hope it helps not to choose to become atheist.
For good MEASUREMENT you need the RIGHT INSTRUMENT !
Could you measure God or Love with a lineal ? He (She) is …cm ?? …inches ??
Pure nonsense.
I WILL SHOW YOU HOW TO MESSURE GOD WITH A LINEAL.
First: you take that lineal. You are now able to measure distances.
First dimension. No good for measuring GOD OR LOVE.
Second: you take that lineal bend the two endings toward each other.
Fix them. You have a circle. You are now able to measure surfaces.
Second dimension. Still not good for measuring God !!
How comes most people are struck to this inapt instrument ?
You measure a monatomic God, write endless books about Him,
try to convince everybody that you are right ??
You should admit at least your wrong measurement !
HE is shining white = the circle is complete white = believers.
SHE is dark black = the circle is complete black = nonbelievers.
The only dynamism possible is that off KUNDALINI.
The snake that bites his tale. The energy bend inwards.
Continuing until non-existence !!
This is dead ! Or dying !!
Third: you take that circle, with both your hands.
One hand you turn towards your body, the other away from it.
Now you have the sign for eternity. You added a third dimension !!!
This is the instrument to measure eternity. But never forget that you
first have to input equal but opposite energies to make it work.
How to visualise endless things ?? Build a picture off it.
For one picture tells more than a thousand words.
Most adequate sign: eternity symbol, or Yin-Yang
To explain everything !!
Don’t ever try to kill the devil, you will need him to keep balance.
There is no thing that makes balance on his one.
Admit the devil, admit that God never dismissed him, make love to Lilith,
(this is the same !!)
It is absolutely amazing how incredibly stupid the responses to this thread are.
731 POSTS AND YET NOT ONE SINGEL POST ADRESSING THE PROBABILITY OF A GOD!
Just a load of unscientific religious personal statements and the aggravated reactions to these highly improper statements.
Unbelievable! (pun intended)
The Faithers sing their personal and highly non scientific song of their absolutely subjective experience and calls it proof!!!!
The non Faithers on their side demand proof, which is almost as stupid a reaction, since this thread does not deal with any proof!!!
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE MERE PROBABILITY OF A GOD, ASKING FOR SCIENTIFICALLY PROVABLE INDICATIONS, REPEAT INDICATIONS, IN ANY DIRECTION.
So I repeat: NOT ONE SINGEL POST YET ADRESSING THE PROBABILITY OF A GOD!
As I have emphasized before: THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DEBATE!!
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SCIENTIFICALLY EXPRESSED PROBABILITY OF A GOD, MADE UPON REPEATABLE PHYSICAL OBSERVATIONS IN EITHER DIRECTION.
KNOCK! KNOCK! ANYBODY HOME???
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on October 14, 2012, 05:42:02 PM
It is absolutely amazing how incredibly stupid the responses to this thread are.
731 POSTS AND YET NOT ONE SINGEL POST ADRESSING THE PROBABILITY OF A GOD!
Just a load of unscientific religious personal statements and the aggravated reactions to these highly improper statements.
Unbelievable! (pun intended)
The Faithers sing their personal and highly non scientific song of their absolutely subjective experience and calls it proof!!!!
The non Faithers on their side demand proof, which is almost as stupid a reaction, since this thread does not deal with any proof!!!
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE MERE PROBABILITY OF A GOD, ASKING FOR SCIENTIFICALLY PROVABLE INDICATIONS, REPEAT INDICATIONS, IN ANY DIRECTION.
So I repeat: NOT ONE SINGEL POST YET ADRESSING THE PROBABILITY OF A GOD!
As I have emphasized before: THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DEBATE!!
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SCIENTIFICALLY EXPRESSED PROBABILITY OF A GOD, MADE UPON REPEATABLE PHYSICAL OBSERVATIONS IN EITHER DIRECTION.
KNOCK! KNOCK! ANYBODY HOME???
Gwandau
Well, it wasn't a very scientifically arrived at probability, especially given the non reproducibility of the subject matter, but I did throw in my two bobs worth of opinion.
News (http://www.overunity.com/news/) / Re: Probality of God (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg340146/#msg340146) «
on: October 13, 2012, 07:36:41 AM »
Cheers
oh boy what kind of brain we have here, they really don't know the essence of logic. :-\
now i think i know the reason why it is hard for them to solve the overunity problem. :o
SIMPLE COMMON SENSE YOU CANNOT SING ;D JOKE
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 14, 2012, 11:00:14 PM
now i think i know the reason why it is hard for them to solve the overunity problem. :o
This hint fits most to one guy on this thread, who seem most interested: Magluvin. :o
Quote from: Qwert on October 15, 2012, 01:20:36 AM
This hint fits most to one guy on this thread, who seem most interested: Magluvin. :o
If Tito thinks I havnt found OU yet because I am not close or close enough to God, then that is his opinion. I dont agree with it. Im sure Tito knows many believers that dont know of OU or havent found it yet. And because they havnt found OU they are not true believers? ??? ;)
Mags
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 14, 2012, 11:00:14 PM
snip...
now i think i know the reason why it is hard for them to solve the overunity problem.
snip...
So, have
you solved the OU problem? Was it easy for you?
If so, why haven't you shared it as open source? Isn't that what this forum is all about?
oh :o , I'm sorry i was just disappointed about the two previous post above before me in page 49 in spite of the explanation i gave, still they don't get it. :-\
and about the OU secret, well, I Have given my reason already. :)
The OU secret is not too complicated its just tricky. we are actually using the circuit all of this time but not noticing its the secret.
simple as a piece of cake.
well i just felt that everyone is very sensitive now about all my post. something weird. :)
Well, i was reading the colorado spring of tesla many times and all patents of tesla, then i was curious about his circuit, they have one in common.
and when i read about tesla discovered the slight increase, then voila, a spark of info came into my mind and that's it.
i'd like newtonii to clarify EXACTLY which god(s) he meant when he titled this thread...
Quote from: hoptoad on October 15, 2012, 02:06:07 AM
So, have you solved the OU problem? Was it easy for you?
If so, why haven't you shared it as open source? Isn't that what this forum is all about?
oh god... here we go again... i hope jesus fucking christ saves us... ;)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 15, 2012, 02:01:55 AM
If Tito thinks I havnt found OU yet because I am not close or close enough to God, then that is his opinion. I dont agree with it. Im sure Tito knows many believers that dont know of OU or havent found it yet. And because they havnt found OU they are not true believers? ??? ;)
Mags
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 15, 2012, 02:34:40 AM
oh :o , I'm sorry i was just disappointed about the two previous post above before me in page 49 in spite of the explanation i gave, still they don't get it. :-\
;D ;D
edit
Something for your satisfaction, Tito & Magluvin: immediately after posting this, I wanted to return here and I received this blank message instead, see attachment. Apparently God's influence ;)
edit
The message from above edit lasted about an hour. But Im still receiving this sometimes when I want to get overunity.com.
So, I conclude this becomes something different than just God's hand. Maybe somebody knows what to do with this message/error?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 15, 2012, 03:30:04 AM
oh god... here we go again... i hope jesus fucking christ saves us... ;)
making war again wilby?. be sure you can stand your point >:( you#@$%$^$%^&%^$%^
OU is not the solution in the problem in this world , the problems are the people like you who don't believe in God! ;D
They are the hindrances why Blessing are not able to reach earth. understand! You @#$@##@$%@#$@#$@#$ ;D
;D
Quote from: Qwert on October 15, 2012, 03:33:56 AM
;D ;D
edit
Something for your satisfaction, Tito & Magluvin: immediately after posting this, I wanted to return here and I received this blank message instead, see attachment. Apparently God's influence ;)
something is wrong here. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ;D
IT DEPENDS TO WHOM IT IS FAVORABLE
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 15, 2012, 03:30:04 AM
oh god... here we go again... i hope jesus fucking christ saves us... ;)
How could you say this words to the son of God? >:(
So science can save you?! huh >:(
Even your are greatest scientist of all time, you will still die and have an account for all the bad words you have said, REMEMBER THAT! >:(
YOU #@$^%#@$%$#%#$%#$%$#
Quote from: Gwandau on October 14, 2012, 05:42:02 PM
It is absolutely amazing how incredibly stupid the responses to this thread are.
731 POSTS AND YET NOT ONE SINGEL POST ADRESSING THE PROBABILITY OF A GOD!
Just a load of unscientific religious personal statements and the aggravated reactions to these highly improper statements.
Unbelievable! (pun intended)
The Faithers sing their personal and highly non scientific song of their absolutely subjective experience and calls it proof!!!!
The non Faithers on their side demand proof, which is almost as stupid a reaction, since this thread does not deal with any proof!!!
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE MERE PROBABILITY OF A GOD, ASKING FOR SCIENTIFICALLY PROVABLE INDICATIONS, REPEAT INDICATIONS, IN ANY DIRECTION.
So I repeat: NOT ONE SINGEL POST YET ADRESSING THE PROBABILITY OF A GOD!
As I have emphasized before: THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DEBATE!!
IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SCIENTIFICALLY EXPRESSED PROBABILITY OF A GOD, MADE UPON REPEATABLE PHYSICAL OBSERVATIONS IN EITHER DIRECTION.
KNOCK! KNOCK! ANYBODY HOME???
Gwandau
actually... i've addressed it several times... and i seem to recall hoptoad addressing it at least once.
perhaps you missed those posts in your emotional state. or maybe the godbots drowned them out with their repetitive logical fallacies and recitations of their fairytale. or maybe there's nobody home at your place...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 15, 2012, 05:01:57 AM
actually... i've addressed it a couple times... and i seem to recall hoptoad addressing it at least once.
perhaps you missed those posts in your emotional state. or maybe the godbots drowned them out with their repetitive logical fallacies and recitations of their fairytale. or maybe there's nobody home at your place...
again i'd like to know exactly which god is being reference by newtonii... i think he is speaking of the godfairy of abraham but i don't recall him ever being specific about which god.
and... i'd like to know by what standard do the xians claim a higher probability for their godfairy than they ascribe to all the other godfairies...
OWH BOY I REALLY FELT SO PITY TO YOU WILBY.
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, ETERNAL TORMENTED, GNASHING OF TEETH IN HELL. :'(
LAKE OF FIRE.
Everything in the Holy Bible are already fulfilled and still being fulfilled.
Yes, i know you are not yet aware but that is surely sure, just wait for your appointment. :)
You can laugh the best laugh you can do today, maybe the other day its from the Lord. :)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 15, 2012, 05:10:54 AM
OWH BOY I REALLY FELT SO PITY TO YOU WILBY.
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, ETERNAL TORMENTED, GNASHING OF TEETH IN HELL. :'(
LAKE OF FIRE.
Everything in the Holy Bible are already fulfilled and still being fulfilled.
Yes, i know you are not yet aware but that is surely sure, just wait for your appointment. :)
You can laugh the best laugh you can do today, maybe the other day its from the Lord. :)
LOL shut up you filthy sinner...
do you think i am scared of the imaginary 'bad place' from your asinine fairytale? you are a lunatic.
God is watching you wilby i am not anymore accountable to you and i've done my part. ;D
God has now a reason for you for punishment. :-\
just wait wilby............................................................................ ;D
for your appointment................................................................................. ;D
ya thats good ....... laugh........laugh......... ;D
shut up you filthy sinner...
how scared and frightened are you of the flying spaghetti monster? how scared and frightened are you of hades and the underworld? that's about how scared i am of your imaginary godfairy and his hell... so fuck off with your godtard threats and fairy tales... save them for your retarded kids.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 15, 2012, 06:31:11 AM
shut up you filthy sinner...
how scared and frightened are you of the flying spaghetti monster? how scared and frightened are you of hades and the underworld? that's about how scared i am of your imaginary godfairy and his hell... so fuck off with your godtard threats and fairy tales... save them for your retarded kids.
owh boy ssssooooo scared Lol bwahhahahhahahahahahhahahhahahhahahha ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
that's not a threat it will really happen just wait, and lets drink to that bwahhhhahahahahahhahhahha ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 15, 2012, 03:28:14 AM
i'd like newtonii to clarify EXACTLY which god(s) he meant when he titled this thread...
What do you mean by 'which God?' God is just God who created this universe. May be different religions and faiths call God with different names and show different ways to reach God.
The .pdf file attached to this thread speaks only about 'Probability of God' and not probability of Abraham, Vishnu, Allah or Ra
Quote from: Newton II on October 15, 2012, 07:00:43 AM
What do you mean by 'which God?' God is just God who created this universe. May be different religions and faiths call God with different names and show different ways to reach God.
The .pdf file attached to this thread speaks only about 'Probability of God' and not probability of Abraham, Vishnu, Allah or Ra
are you that naive that you cannot see the anti hindu, anti buddhist, etc.
are you so naive that you cannot see the obvious pro christian rhetoric?
so the god spoken of in this pdf you posted is zeus then? or is it Eru Ilúvatar?
What makes it so difficult to stay focused on eternal things, I pondered this morning. I heard the gentle voice of Papa God, say, "it is because eternal things are invisible. While all that distracts, earthly things are visible." So that which is eternal is invisible, and that which is earthly is visible.
Our life is but like a vapor of smoke. Here for the moment and then gone. Yet, only those things which are eternal, that we have set our life upon, will abide. While the earthly things of our life are fleeting at best. So, that which is invisible is eternal. And only the invisible can be seen by faith. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Lord, may we walk by faith, having our heart set upon the eternal, the invisible. Free our hearts from earthly cares. These are the things I ponder today. . . .
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 15, 2012, 05:01:57 AM
actually... i've addressed it several times... and i seem to recall hoptoad addressing it at least once.
perhaps you missed those posts in your emotional state. or maybe the godbots drowned them out with their repetitive logical fallacies and recitations of their fairytale. or maybe there's nobody home at your place...
@ WilbyInebriated,
Maybe I missed your input in this regard, since I only recall your demand for proof, which is just as improper as the songs of the Faithers.
To adress the PROBABILITY of a god does not involve any demand for proof. It just needs an open minded interest for indications presented in either direction.
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 15, 2012, 02:42:46 PM
What makes it so difficult to stay focused on eternal things, I pondered this morning. I heard the gentle voice of Papa God, say, "it is because eternal things are invisible. While all that distracts, earthly things are visible." So that which is eternal is invisible, and that which is earthly is visible.
Our life is but like a vapor of smoke. Here for the moment and then gone. Yet, only those things which are eternal, that we have set our life upon, will abide. While the earthly things of our life are fleeting at best. So, that which is invisible is eternal. And only the invisible can be seen by faith. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Lord, may we walk by faith, having our heart set upon the eternal, the invisible. Free our hearts from earthly cares. These are the things I ponder today. . . .
Why doesn't your inner voice tell you something useful, like how to solve the OU problem?
@ milehigh's letter to me
"14-year-old girl gunned down in the street like a dog in the name of the Lord.
Makes you stop and think a bit, no? How can you not at least have mixed feelings about religion? "
Here is my answer for that, and for the benefit of the doubt. ;D
do not afraid to the one that can kill your body and can't kill your soul, but be afraid to the one that can kill body and soul in the lake of fire.
To die is gain and to live is Christ. So nothing to loose either of the two is favorable.
For it is appointed to a person to die weather you are young or old, and it is much better if you die in the name of the Lord.
for you will be with God eternally ;)
Tito L. Oracion ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 16, 2012, 12:15:56 AM
@ milehigh's letter to me
"14-year-old girl gunned down in the street like a dog in the name of the Lord.
Makes you stop and think a bit, no? How can you not at least have mixed feelings about religion? "
Here is my answer for that, and for the benefit of the doubt. ;D
do not afraid to the one that can kill your body and can't kill your soul, but be afraid to the one that can kill body and soul in the lake of fire.
To die is gain and to live is Christ. So nothing to loose either of the two is favorable.
For it is appointed to a person to die weather you are young or old, and it is much better if you die in the name of the Lord.
for you will be with God eternally ;)
Tito L. Oracion ;D
Now that, my friends, is why religion is evil. It rationalizes violence. Hey, dead people just go meet Jesus sooner, so murder is ok.
So there you have it! God makes it easier to die when you think your going some place after your dead. It also makes it easier to kill from the same logic.
I wonder if my dog will live after death, or that deer I killed with the car, or that rabbit! I seem to think that they are just dead and gone forever like a corn plant or any other living thing.
You simply believe in God because you feel special or better than the other animals, but what do they think?
You need to feel like there is something after death because you can't face the fact that you will simply be gone forever and while you stand around believing there is something after death you are the first to condemn those that work to alter DNA in hopes to understand how to fix the problem of death.
Not all things die, some creatures are eternal and even our DNA can support eternal life (unless killed by something).
So I don't care about those who choose to believe in God and I respect their right to do so, but don't push your moral beliefs on others when they work to modify DNA for eternal life.
Look up "telomeres" and see for yourself.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 15, 2012, 05:44:54 PM
Why doesn't your inner voice tell you something useful, like how to solve the OU problem?
good one :)
Quote from: lumen on October 16, 2012, 01:50:46 AM
So there you have it! God makes it easier to die when you think your going some place after your dead. It also makes it easier to kill from the same logic.
I wonder if my dog will live after death, or that deer I killed with the car, or that rabbit! I seem to think that they are just dead and gone forever like a corn plant or any other living thing.
You simply believe in God because you feel special or better than the other animals, but what do they think?
You need to feel like there is something after death because you can't face the fact that you will simply be gone forever and while you stand around believing there is something after death you are the first to condemn those that work to alter DNA in hopes to understand how to fix the problem of death.
Not all things die, some creatures are eternal and even our DNA can support eternal life (unless killed by something).
So I don't care about those who choose to believe in God and I respect their right to do so, but don't push your moral beliefs on others when they work to modify DNA for eternal life.
Look up "telomeres" and see for yourself.
As an update to the claim there is no such thing as immortality on earth. of which I responded discussing a known jellyfish that is thought to be immortal
I studied up on telomeres and was surprised to find out we (as in human researchers) have already created immortal human cells. No individual cells don't live forever but they replicate forever. Its the first step to the human organism (a collection of cells) living forever.
On top of that interestingly lobsters may well be immortal or at least extremely long lived. Apparently old lobsters show no signs of old age. They think that the major causes of death are predation and accidental death.
Its an exciting time for science. :)
Personally I am against immortality but the goal of quality of life with few or none of the diseases of age is a worthy goal.
Chris
Did you ever doubt we would find this secret?[immortality]
Once we started Cloning and such ,cracking the DNA code or at least
The Glare from the tip of the iceberg [havent yet gotten to the Tip].
To figure out Why the design did not allow for perfect rebuild/replication
on a machine that is completely devoted to self repair and preservation
at almost every possible level [the living machines].
They say 95% Of DNA is not understood,We find out recently {Epigenetics}
we can Evolve almost instantly [compared to previous views].
What would be the advantage to the machine there??
and one can only begin to imagine what the rest of the DNA can do ,or how
linear this process ultimately is [towards what goal].
"I" am just Curious here,
You are one of the fellows that see no design whatsoever,or as "W" has said You would except the possibility?Or should I say
Probability?
Thx
Chet
PS
A side note
The secrets thing [ultimately there will be no secrets]
Bruce did post a scripture about that
just an observation..........
Let's adress the probability of a god, without being bound to be either religious or an atheist.
There actually is another possibly much more probable alternative.
You see, a so called intelligent design behind the dynamics of our universe does not neccessarily need a god to exist.
Therefore I would like to stress the important difference between the probability of an indifferent Intent behind the existence and structure of our universe and the probability of the narrow minded traditional concept of a god.
The very basic quality of such an Intent would not allow for any religion to develop, it would just among many other things allow us to understand the strange pattern behind matter evolving into being self conscious.
I don't believe anything, this is just a suggestion seemingly more plausible than both religion and atheism, so please restrain yourself from going into agressive mode here, I'm just extrapolating a probability of an indifferent intelligence being the body of our very universe itself, a concept that as far as I am concerned would make a lot more sense than all those self centered and kindergarten level antropocentric religions imposed upon the human sheep, as well as the dimensional colorlessness and dryness of puritan atheism.
Imagine a totally unpersonal Intent that permeates our universe as a omnipresent program being responsible for executing the known dynamics of the physical structure of universe, as well as the structure behind the metaphysical dynamics such as consciousness.
Imagine our universe as an extremely complex organism with a life cycle starting with the big bang and ending when it all retracts back to the singularity. In such a scenario each big bang is the start of a new cycle, based upon the progress of consciousness made in the previous cycle.
Also, in such a scenario the evolvement and level of consciousness as well as the evolvement and multiplicity of living organisms are the very memory code that will be harvested by universe itself when completing its life circle. This way universe itself will evolve into something new and improved for each and everytime it completes its life cycle.
And if our universe is a relativistic one, everything is bound to repeat itself endlessly in any direction, just like the dynamics that makes a galaxy spiralling are the same dynamics influencing similar patterns on our earth.
This way the evolving dynamics of the big bang cycles repeats itself on all levels in each cycle, making each living organism going through a repeatable cycle of birth and rebirth, gaining improvements of both the physical character as a species as well as an increased level of consciousness of the individual for each new life cycle.
Additionally, seen from this perspective of Intent, the revolving dynamics behind the big bang cycles of our universe are mere reverbrations of next level of Intent, creating a infinite number elevated levels of Intent behind any level of Intent.
An infinite number of increasing levels of Intents or levels of Coinsciousness, making human consciousness a fractal of a much bigger picture, a never ending infinitely big picture painted by no one, or everyone.
This is as far as I am concerned a fully probable alternative to both rigid atheism as well as rigid religion, both with their obviously lose ends, atheism being blindfolded against nonphysical phenomenons and the religious backing up their faith on man made old scriptures and the inner dialogue phenomenon.
Now I want to emphasize once again that the above presented alternative is not something I neccessarily believe, this is just an example of a fully logical structure behind our universe, totally leaving out any need for a personal god as well as the crass and dry atheistic outlook, and at the same time avoiding the lose ends of the two.
Gwandau
Quote from: lumen on October 16, 2012, 01:50:46 AM
So there you have it! God makes it easier to die when you think your going some place after your dead. It also makes it easier to kill from the same logic.
I wonder if my dog will live after death, or that deer I killed with the car, or that rabbit! I seem to think that they are just dead and gone forever like a corn plant or any other living thing.
You simply believe in God because you feel special or better than the other animals, but what do they think?
You need to feel like there is something after death because you can't face the fact that you will simply be gone forever and while you stand around believing there is something after death you are the first to condemn those that work to alter DNA in hopes to understand how to fix the problem of death.
Not all things die, some creatures are eternal and even our DNA can support eternal life (unless killed by something).
So I don't care about those who choose to believe in God and I respect their right to do so, but don't push your moral beliefs on others when they work to modify DNA for eternal life.
Look up "telomeres" and see for yourself.
Animals have not spirits. Sorry to all of those Indians, hindu's etc, that worship such things. Man is made in the image and likeness of God. You are a spirit, with a Soul (personality, mind, will, emotions) that lives in a body.
Your body is our "earth" suit. Just like an astronaut needs a "space" suit to operate in the confines of space, so likewise, we too need "earth" suits to operate in the confines or "realm" of earthly things. But just like the "space" suit is not the astronaut, but simply a housing, so too, are these bodies of flesh a housing for the REAL you. Your spirit/soul. That IS the real you and is Eternal. And the Lord promises a ressurection both of the just, and of the unjust. Of the righteous and of the unrighteous. For the books will be opened and whosevers name is not found in the Lambs book of life shall be cast ALIVE into the lake of fire. But the GOOD NEWS is that you can have eternal life, by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of your life.
We will ALL live eternally, it is only a question of WHERE...
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 17, 2012, 02:43:35 PM
Animals have not spirits. Sorry to all of those Indians, hindu's etc, that worship such things. Man is made in the image and likeness of God. You are a spirit, with a Soul (personality, mind, will, emotions) that lives in a body.
Your body is our "earth" suit. Just like an astronaut needs a "space" suit to operate in the confines of space, so likewise, we too need "earth" suits to operate in the confines or "realm" of earthly things. But just like the "space" suit is not the astronaut, but simply a housing, so too, are these bodies of flesh a housing for the REAL you. Your spirit/soul. That IS the real you and is Eternal. And the Lord promises a ressurection both of the just, and of the unjust. Of the righteous and of the unrighteous. For the books will be opened and whosevers name is not found in the Lambs book of life shall be cast ALIVE into the lake of fire. But the GOOD NEWS is that you can have eternal life, by confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of your life.
We will ALL live eternally, it is only a question of WHERE...
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
"Animals have not spirits." Who are you to be so sure? Can you really observe the spirit in a living being, and therefore with selfgained knowledge being able to see the lack of a soul in an animal? Or are you just a copy cat, repeating the old scripts?
"Man is made in the image and likeness of God." Repetition again.
"You are a spirit, with a Soul (personality, mind, will, emotions) that lives in a body." Are you suggesting that the definition of "soul" is "personality, mind, will, emotions" ??? That is not correct even in the religious context. Actually, there is no definition of the "soul" since this is a totally abstract concept without anything backing it up.
Since you seem to be a sincere and honest person with only good intents i feel obliged to inform you that it is very rude and bad behaviour to impose ones ideas as being unquestioned truths. This is per definition fanatic behaviour and is a clear example of very low social competence.
The stale air around a person rigidly fixed in a dead end mindset, for ever closed to any changes or progress in understanding, makes two way communication impossible . For such a person the monologue is the only communication possible. A pity.
Open yourself up for the greatness of the unspoken mystery around you, you unfortunately seem to be trapped within the confines of the Christian mythology, which resides not in real life but in your own intellect.
Take the good things with you that you have learned by being a Christian and get out of that prison. Everything essential said by Jesus consist of a few important lines that are very wise, the rest is only a lot of conditioning made by entirely other people far from the original state of mind of Jesus.
It is very strange that you cannot see the difference between the wisdom of Jesus and all the other crap. You see, this is the trap you Christians have fallen into, you have understood his wisdom and then automatically you buy all the other bullshit that unfortunately imprison you within a non enlightened script writers delusions.
Being a prisoner of the intellect is the worst confinement there is. The one who brags about his big intellect is like a person who brags about his big prison cell.
Dare take a step outside into the freedom of mind, your virtues and wisdom and connection to your inner self won't leave you.
Just let go of all intellectual programming and just feel the fresh air and the vastness of open possibilities all around you.
You have nothing to lose but your head. ;)
Gwandau
Bruce,
I can see that line of thinking in the future, as the sun is expanding and we are all sitting here just waiting for God to save us, but it never happens and the entire human race is extinct, as if we never existed!
Your last thought of ...... well it's too late, no more thoughts from anyone now or forever on! If you would have just jumped into the volcano sooner, maybe things could have been different.
The scripture actually says "God gave man the breath of life, and man became a living soul". This is just way different than thinking you have a soul!
I have the feeling that reason intelligence has flourished on earth is related more the the magnetic field we propagate in, forming neuro pathways in controlled order.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 16, 2012, 01:48:10 AM
Now that, my friends, is why religion is evil. It rationalizes violence. Hey, dead people just go meet Jesus sooner, so murder is ok.
owh boy. its like This site suppress me to answer, really hard to go in. >:(
what kind of logic is that!!!!? >:( , That's why God has a commandment of "DO NOT KILL"
That is the way of God filtering his children, okay you go make murders and be sure that you will be filtered ;D
AND YOU WILL NOT MEET JESUS SOONER!!! >:(
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A7&version=KJV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2%3A7&version=KJV)
The soul is the real you, the one that can feel pain and happiness, the one that is really alive.
once you died, the soul, the real you is not anymore in that body.
and absence of the body is presence in the Lord giving and reporting an account to what you've done in your life, got that?
You cannot compare the temporary life into eternal life, temporary is nothing compared to the eternal life, its just a little taste of life. :)
To become prison to Jesus is the real freedom in life, understand?. :o
Quote from: lumen on October 17, 2012, 07:11:26 PM
Bruce,
I can see that line of thinking in the future, as the sun is expanding and we are all sitting here just waiting for God to save us, but it never happens and the entire human race is extinct, as if we never existed!
seems hopeless isn't it? :D ,but you are mistaken there is hope, God promises a new heaven and new earth.
That is really the tendency of zero faith.
and here is the secret: FAITH COMES BY HEARING AND HEARING THE WORD OF GOD. http://bible.cc/romans/10-17.htm (http://bible.cc/romans/10-17.htm)
Well, i don't actually care if animals have souls or whatever, cause some animals were given by God to us as food consumption. ;D
READ THE BIBLE BRO. YOU NEED THAT. ;)
So with the breath of life, you became a living soul. Then when you die you become a dead soul. So simple!
All else you believe is only because you can, because you are living. Once dead, to dust you return!
It's all there, you just need to read it for what it really says and not what you have been told it says.
If you really want to read something from the book, try the first pages of ezekiel. They will tell about the space ship that landed here.
I really don't want to read this book again, takes very long and much has been cut out. I especially like the verse "These are the works of god and no man will add or take from them", but most religions do because they don't like some parts so they replace them with their own stories!
Ya man , just keep reading!
Quote from: lumen on October 17, 2012, 11:18:04 PM
So with the breath of life, you became a living soul. Then when you die you become a dead soul. So simple!
All else you believe is only because you can, because you are living. Once dead, to dust you return!
It's all there, you just need to read it for what it really says and not what you have been told it says.
If you really want to read something from the book, try the first pages of ezekiel. They will tell about the space ship that landed here.
I really don't want to read this book again, takes very long and much has been cut out. I especially like the verse "These are the works of god and no man will add or take from them", but most religions do because they don't like some parts so they replace them with their own stories!
Ya man , just keep reading!
Your mistaken bro. :-\ our soul will not die. we have an account to God.
Ya the body will return to dust but Jesus promise to raise it again.
not just anybody told it, it was written.
if you really want to read something from the book, you read john 3: 16. i don't care those ship so what are those ship can do about my salvation.
So, that is your decision, for me what is important is to know the purpose of Jesus why he came here.
HE(JESUS) IS OUR ONLY HOPE.
i just told you to read just to share the benefit of knowing Jesus and not TO insult you ok? ;)
AND TO HAVE FAITH :)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 17, 2012, 11:49:10 PM
not just anybody told it, it was written.
Why should we believe it just because it was written? The Quran was written, and I suspect you do not put much stock in that. The Greek myths about Apollo and Zeus were written, and I suspect you believe those even less. Give us one good reason to believe your book. And please do not mention the voice in your head. Give us a demonstrable reason why your book is right and all the others are not.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 17, 2012, 11:49:10 PM
Your mistaken bro. :-\
How do you know bro, you are not mistaken? Because the book say so? There a lot of books in the world which say so. Why then you selected just this one? People who wrote this book were as liars as others, they did everything you to believe them.
edit
Tito, it looks like you just don't know this book; have you ever read it? The whole Bible? Or you don't understand it. I believe books only when they are logical and this one isn't.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 18, 2012, 12:00:56 AM
Why should we believe it just because it was written? The Quran was written, and I suspect you do not put much stock in that. The Greek myths about Apollo and Zeus were written, and I suspect you believe those even less. Give us one good reason to believe your book. And please do not mention the voice in your head. Give us a demonstrable reason why your book is right and all the others are not.
OWH! :o HAHAHAHAHHAHA ITS YOU AGAIN ;D
It depends of course in style of your searching where and who to believe. :o in that case you really need some common sense and humility so that God will not let you be deceive. ok? ;D
And the most important is prayer with humility before God. cause God knows our heart than us. get that ? ;)
The BIBLE IS WRITTEN AND INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
THAT MEANS WRITTEN BY MAN OF GOD CONTROLLED TOTALLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. :)
OF COURSE YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE, BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE RIGHT? ;D
SO WHATS WRONG TO BELIEVE IN GOOD LOVE AND FAITH? YOU TELL ME. :)
NOW WHOOSE MODEL DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE? WILBY?, THAT ATTITUDE? OH HOW CONVINCING. ;D
TITO L. ORACION ;D
Quote from: Qwert on October 18, 2012, 12:11:28 AM
How do you know bro, you are not mistaken? Because the book say so? There a lot of books in the world which say so. Why then you selected just this one? People who wrote this book were as liars as others, they did everything you to believe them.
edit
Tito, it looks like you just don't know this book; have you ever read it? The whole Bible? Or you don't understand it.
No bro!, the very essence of the Bible is to know JESUS cause he is our ONLY hope. :)
HE ONLY WANTS YOU TO BE SAVE THAT'S ALL. AND TO BE SAVE IS EASY.
JUST HAVE FAITH IN HIM, AND SINCE YOU ARE SAVE, GOOD WORKS MUST FOLLOW NOT TO BE SAVE BUT THE ESSENCE OF BEING SAVED.
GOD REALLY LOVES YOU. THATS WHAT HE WANTS YOU TO KNOW. :) [size=78%] [/size]
AND TO HAVE FAITH AND LOVE IN HIM WILL NEVER GET YOU INTO WRONG DIRECTION, HAVE MARK ON THAT. :)
TITO L. ORACION :)
BYE FOR NOW
I'M HUNGRY. I HAVE TO EAT FIRST. ;D
BYE BRO. LOVE YOU ALL. :)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 12:28:42 AM
No bro!, the very essence of the Bible is to know JESUS cause he is our ONLY hope. :)
So, I was right. In the past, I was like you are now. It was until I've read the Bible; both Old and New Testament. It's rather hard to understand New Testament without reading The Old Testament; only then you can see how illogical the whole book is.
Quote from: Qwert on October 18, 2012, 12:56:14 AM
So, I was right. In the past, I was like you are now. It was until I've read the Bible; both Old and New Testament. It's rather hard to understand New Testament without reading The Old Testament; only then you can see how illogical the whole book is.
The bible is a "great" collection of stories, nothing more. Christians place so much emphasis on the "resurrection" of christ, and claim that christ is the only one to have been resurrected after death. They won't acknowledge pre christian history, and see that Prometheus, and Osiris, and Vishnu, et al, also were "resurrected".
Christians can not claim unique ownership of the resurrection story, because such stories of resurrection pre date christianity by thousands of years. Yet they do claim ownership ... go figure
Quote from: Qwert on October 18, 2012, 12:56:14 AM
So, I was right. In the past, I was like you are now. It was until I've read the Bible; both Old and New Testament. It's rather hard to understand New Testament without reading The Old Testament; only then you can see how illogical the whole book is.
No! You are wrong. When i've finished reading the both old and new testament, that was then i've found out the real plan and purpose of God. :)
AND IT WAS SOOOW GOOD AND A VERY VERY CLEVER THINKING OF A SUPREME GOD.
But its so sad you didn't get it, in spite of Gods love to humanity. :(
You know what bro. Sometimes its a matter of intellectual pride. as i have said before, you have pray to God first with real HUMILITY.
before he will show you the way. and i want you to know that He is real God, i mean He knows your heart if it is serious or not. of course He is our designers.
If you were just looking for fault, well, satans is the masters of fault for you not to continue. and always satans makes your hearts to become angry to God. and that is really the purpose of satan, to DECEIVE. SO THAT HE HAS A COMPANY IN HELL.
If you are looking for fault then satan will make lots of fault, and from there you see fault and say Bible is illogical.
So if not the Bible, what book then can be trusted? well, no more. since only the bible were Holy spirit is inspired. :-\
so long bro. i'm doing all my best to explain in spite of my low ability to speak in english.
But it is not accident why i am here, cause i believe, God is using me for all of you there to hear this words. :)
I HAVE ALREADY WROTE HOW TO BE SAVE AND GROW IN THIS SITE, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS SEARCH AND ACCEPT.
Satan's wants us : DECEIVE, FIGHTING, UNSURE, ILLOGICAL AND PRIDE.
HERE IS GOD WANTS FOR US: PEACE, JOY, FAITH AND LOVE.
so whats wrong for that.
all he want is for our own good.
is there an illogical in that?
When adam and eve are peaceful in eden, then who ruin or destroy the relationship between God and Man?.
So therefore God just only want that good relationship back ok. ;) He even gave his only begotten son just for us.
Its a matter of principle fighting between good and evil.
AND THAT WAS A GREAT PLAN. HIS AMAZING GRACE. :)
God Bless all of you
Tito L. Oracion :)
Quote from: hoptoad on October 18, 2012, 02:49:02 AM
The bible is a "great" collection of stories, nothing more. Christians place so much emphasis on the "resurrection" of christ, and claim that christ is the only one to have been resurrected after death. They won't acknowledge pre christian history, and see that Prometheus, and Osiris, and Vishnu, et al, also were "resurrected".
Christians can not claim unique ownership of the resurrection story, because such stories of resurrection pre date christianity by thousands of years. Yet they do claim ownership ... go figure
Is that all you can see in the Bible? your must be kidding, you kid ;D
You must know the purpose of Jesus Christ why he resurrected.
i don't actually know the purpose of prometheus and osiris and vishnu why they resurrected. lol ;D
what book did you read about that, is the Holy spirit also inspired with that book?. oh wow ;D you make me laugh
what we acknowledge is if their existence has something to do with the plan of God or it is just a conflicts. :)
be wise bro like the maji. ;)
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 03:23:41 AM
No! You are wrong. When i've finished reading the both old and new testament, that was then i've found out the real plan and purpose of God. :)
I've found the real plan and purpose of of the guys who wrote the book too. You call them "God"?
Quote from: Qwert on October 18, 2012, 04:09:44 AM
I've found the real plan and purpose of of the guy who wrote the book too. You call him "God"?
what? i don't get you? who?
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 03:37:00 AM
Is that all you can see in the Bible? your must be kidding, you kid ;D
Yes. A great story is still a great story, nothing more, nothing less.
Quote
You must know the purpose of Jesus Christ why he resurrected.
I don't believe he was resurrected, so the purpose is moot.
Quote
i don't actually know the purpose of prometheus and osiris and vishnu why they resurrected. lol ;D
[\quote]
Nobody does. It's fiction. It doesn't have to have a cogent, plausable purpose.
Quote
what book did you read about that, is the Holy spirit also inspired with that book?. oh wow ;D you make me laugh
Not book, but many books! History is enscribed in and composed of them. Try visiting a library if you haven't worked out how to search for (non christian and pre christian) history on the internet.
A good starting point is The Illiad (Ancient Greek Mythology and poetry by homer) for references to Prometheus, The Text of the Pyramids (Ancient Egyptian Mythology) for references to Osiris, and The Maharabharata (Ancient Vedic Scripture) for references to Vishnu.
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be wise bro like the maji. ;)
I don't believe in majick, and I know I'm not wise.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 12:17:19 AM
OWH! :o HAHAHAHAHHAHA ITS YOU AGAIN ;D
It depends of course in style of your searching where and who to believe. :o in that case you really need some common sense and humility so that God will not let you be deceive. ok? ;D
And the most important is prayer with humility before God. cause God knows our heart than us. get that ? ;)
The BIBLE IS WRITTEN AND INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT
THAT MEANS WRITTEN BY MAN OF GOD CONTROLLED TOTALLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. :)
I only ask one thing.
Prove it!
Quote from: ramset on October 17, 2012, 11:58:25 AM
Chris
Did you ever doubt we would find this secret?[immortality]
Once we started Cloning and such ,cracking the DNA code or at least
The Glare from the tip of the iceberg [havent yet gotten to the Tip].
"I" am just Curious here,
You are one of the fellows that see no design whatsoever,or as "W" has said You would except the possibility?Or should I say
Probability?
Thx
Chet
PS
A side note
The secrets thing [ultimately there will be no secrets]
Bruce did post a scripture about that
just an observation..........
My points about immortality was only in reference to some of the comments made by less knowledgeable people on this forum, Rather than seeking the truth they expound simple infactual statements. These statements are adopted by others and before you know it we have a religion.
I have no doubt eventually we will reach some form of immortality. I am against it personally at least until we escape this solar system.
I do not see design I see order. Order is born out of chaos. Especially on a macro scale. To some people order looks like design. Therefore they assume based on the tales they are told there is design and therefore a designer.
I do not KNOW if a god exists, neither do you. You CHOOSE to believe a god exists in whatever flavour you CHOOSE. Which is a different flavour of GOD than other believers here.
In my opinion the "probability of God" is vanishingly small. Its just as likely the universe popped into existence as a god popped into existence to create it.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 18, 2012, 05:16:03 AM
My points about immortality was only in reference to some of the comments made by less knowledgeable people on this forum, Rather than seeking the truth they expound simple infactual statements. These statements are adopted by others and before you know it we have a religion.
I have no doubt eventually we will reach some form of immortality. I am against it personally at least until we escape this solar system.
I do not see design I see order. Order is born out of chaos. Especially on a macro scale. To some people order looks like design. Therefore they assume based on the tales they are told there is design and therefore a designer.
I do not KNOW if a god exists, neither do you. You CHOOSE to believe a god exists in whatever flavour you CHOOSE. Which is a different flavour of GOD than other believers here.
In my opinion the "probability of God" is vanishingly small. Its just as likely the universe popped into existence as a god popped into existence to create it.
Poppycock! lol Not sure if that's a word, but let's use another... verbal rubbish. I am sure that you believe it, as I used to, while living an empty life, filled with hopelessness. Have you ever seen the TV series, "the Walking Dead"? Zombies that are dead but still alive. This is by biblical definition the state of our lives without Christ. Dead. Body is alive, but our spirit, seperated from God is dead. And to die in that condition is eternal death. But AGAIN the good news is, that there IS good news! We can become alive unto God, by faith in Christ.
The "natural" man can not understand, nor receive the things of God, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him. For God has taken the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. His ways are above your ways, and the Creator is CLEARLY seen in that which is created. You are trying to figure God out with puny, miniscule, human logic. Based upon Carnal knowledge when I have already explained that God is a Spirit and that those who worship him, must worship him in Spirit and in Truth.
Watch the following video's at your own risk, if you dare.... Atheist, be forwarned, the following may sway your false belief system:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpp37iJogFI&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpp37iJogFI&feature=related)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qygy14tC3I&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qygy14tC3I&feature=related)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s91-ABJ49ho (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s91-ABJ49ho)
Walking with Christ Jesus,
Bruce
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 18, 2012, 04:56:36 AM
I only ask one thing.
Prove it!
You know what?, if you don't believe in the Holy Bible , YOU CANNOT SEE GOD.
As what i always say that FAITH IS WHAT WE NEED, SO THAT GOD WILL REVEAL HIMSELF.
and what i see is that you are zero faith.
that's it no more talk.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 18, 2012, 04:17:59 AM
Yes. A great story is still a great story, nothing more, nothing less.I don't believe he was resurrected, so the purpose is moot.Not book, but many books! History is enscribed in and composed of them. Try visiting a library if you haven't worked out how to search for (non christian and pre christian) history on the internet.
A good starting point is The Illiad (Ancient Greek Mythology and poetry by homer) for references to Prometheus, The Text of the Pyramids (Ancient Egyptian Mythology) for references to Osiris, and The Maharabharata (Ancient Vedic Scripture) for references to Vishnu. I don't believe in majick, and I know I'm not wise.
if you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus then, you don't have faith and salvation.
and from there its period, no more talk necessary. cause you will not believe in the Bible also right?
I said MAGI not magic! >:(
No! you are wise, you just don't have humility, and lots of intellectual pride. ;)
"i don't actually know the purpose of prometheus and osiris and vishnu why they resurrected. lol
Nobody does. It's fiction. It doesn't have to have a cogent, plausable purpose."
What is the use of studying this story if no purpose?.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
if you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus then, you don't have faith and salvation.
and from there its period, no more talk necessary. cause you will not believe in the Bible also right?
I said MAGI not magic! >:(
No! you are wise, you just don't have humility, and lots of intellectual pride. ;)
i don't actually know the purpose of prometheus and osiris and vishnu why they resurrected. lol Nobody does. It's fiction. It doesn't have to have a cogent, plausable purpose.
The irony is that it is the atheists who are humble, not you. The atheists say "we don't know". You, on the other hand, claim to know the truth about god, and on such weak evidence at that.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 18, 2012, 10:58:59 PM
The irony is that it is the atheists who are humble, not you. The atheists say "we don't know". You, on the other hand, claim to know the truth about god, and on such weak evidence at that.
No my friend, you do not understand. :-\
atheist say "we don't know", that is because they cannot really experience the existence of God because of lack of FAITH, and it is really hard to explain to the atheist if i just experience it by my self, because they don't believe.
AS I ALWAYS SAYS THAT, TO EXPERIENCE GODS EXISTENCE FIRST YOU MUST HAVE FAITH AND HUMILITY AND GOD WILL REVEAL HIS WORKING IN YOUR LIFE. GOT IT?
OFF COURSE YOU DON'T. CAUSE YOU WON'T BELIEVE. ;D
IT IS VERY WEAK EVIDENCE TO YOU BUT VERY STRONG TO ME. CONFLICT IS IT NOT? ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 10:48:29 PM
You know what?, if you don't believe in the Holy Bible , YOU CANNOT SEE GOD.
As what i always say that FAITH IS WHAT WE NEED, SO THAT GOD WILL REVEAL HIMSELF.
and what i see is that you are zero faith.
that's it no more talk.
That's sad I actually expected more from you. I was going to get into an intellectual debate. you know you say but chris scholars have used data mining to show the bible is correct and I come back with its been proven with enough words data mining can show you anything and then you say what about numerology and so on and so forth.
But instead you conceded defeat.
By saying you must rely on faith, you are saying you have no basis for your belief.
The most disappointing thing about your failure to defend the bible. Is that I dont get to remind you that the jews wrote the old testament. According to you with the guidance of the holy spirit.
Why then do the Jews not believe in the new testament? Perhaps the new testament wasnt written with the guidance of the holy spirit?
Mores the shame.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 18, 2012, 10:58:59 PM
The irony is that it is the atheists who are humble, not you. The atheists say "we don't know". You, on the other hand, claim to know the truth about god, and on such weak evidence at that.
This is the nature of a believer they do not even understand enough to question themselves.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 19, 2012, 12:11:35 AM
That's sad I actually expected more from you. I was going to get into an intellectual debate. you know you say but chris scholars have used data mining to show the bible is correct and I come back with its been proven with enough words data mining can show you anything and then you say what about numerology and so on and so forth.
But instead you conceded defeat.
By saying you must rely on faith, you are saying you have no basis for your belief.
The most disappointing thing about your failure to defend the bible. Is that I dont get to remind you that the jews wrote the old testament. According to you with the guidance of the holy spirit.
Why then do the Jews not believe in the new testament? Perhaps the new testament wasnt written with the guidance of the holy spirit?
Mores the shame.
This is the nature of a believer they do not even understand enough to question themselves.
A real and 'scientific' investigation, questioning Titos belief in God is far from what you show.
A real scientist, or even an ordinary individual, that is truly looking for real answers, would not stop at lack of physical proofs.
Why dont you ask 'what' he knows that he has experienced(testimony), rather than degrade and make fun of because you have already made up your mind? I see no logic or reason there.
I suppose you have read the Bible through and through to come to your conclusions. Well your conclusions are just as much fact or fairy tale as you conclude of Titos belief.
So tough luck. Your not even sure you are right, because you dont really know.
We say we do know. We tell you how you can know. You refuse to take a crack at it and proceed to denigrate us because we have done something that you simply refuse to put to the test yourself.
Thats like posting negativity in a tread about someones magnet motor though you never wound a coil, fiddled with batteries, nor magnets. You just read about it and formed your own 'opinions'. Well there are many people here that can attest to learning more by doing than just what they read in any books.
Its not like we can teach you anything. You just throw it in our faces. So beit. Thats the kind of person you are. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 19, 2012, 12:11:35 AM
But instead you conceded defeat.
By saying you must rely on faith, you are saying you have no basis for your belief.
Show me the post that Tito concedes defeat? Those are your words not his. What do you guys do? Find books on how to be an "amature discussion twister". Because thats all you are doing. Twisting words. Once others compare what Tito said then what you said, they can see the twist and who is doing the twisting. ;)
I see now that you must not have read or absorbed much of the Bible if you even tried. Because if you did, you would know that our belief is that we can only be saved by faith alone. Or maybe you didnt get to that part.
So all that you say in this statement....
"By saying you must rely on faith, you are saying you have no basis for your belief."
...is a farce. It is an attack, putting in peoples minds what you want them to hear vs the truth, of which you seem to make that up as you go along. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 10:53:46 PM
What is the use of studying this story if no purpose?.
Perhaps I should have said, no intrisically god related purpose. Purpose is a subjective abstract concept.
To give you an example. A film maker may create a movie, with a particular plot, and specific character types, to portray an idea that he thinks is worthy of public exposure.
The audience goes to see the movie. One audience member's purpose for being there may be to simply be entertained. Another may be there to see why there is so much public fuss about the movie. Yet another couldn't give two hoots about the movie's plot, they just want to see their favourite actors.
Purpose, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, regardless of the intent of the creator, who in the above examples, is the movie maker.
You can feel good within yourself, that you've spread your message as best as you can. (as your faith demands of you)
But also accept that not everyone welcomes or respects your message, and nor should they have to.
You are happy with faith. Others are happy with knowledge. I have no great argument with either. I simply have no faith in any
thing, but I do have faith in
people. Until I'm proven wrong about them.
Like many people, I have 'died' once already, and have been resuscitated, by modern medicine, which is based on knowledge not faith.
A famous Australian named Kerry Packer, who also 'died' once and was resuscitated, was quoted as saying, "I've been to the other side and there was nothing there!"
As an aside,however, if I was only given the choice between being right or being happy, but I could not be both, then I'd choose happiness.
Cheers
Quote from: Magluvin on October 19, 2012, 12:43:20 AM
A real and 'scientific' investigation, questioning Titos belief in God is far from what you show.
A real scientist, or even an ordinary individual, that is truly looking for real answers, would not stop at lack of physical proofs.
How wrong you are. Thats exactly where a real scientist would stop. you cannot prove (or disprove) the spiritual. So it stops there
Quote from: Magluvin on October 19, 2012, 12:43:20 AM
Why dont you ask 'what' he knows that he has experienced(testimony), rather than degrade and make fun of because you have already made up your mind? I see no logic or reason there.
I suppose you have read the Bible through and through to come to your conclusions. Well your conclusions are just as much fact or fairy tale as you conclude of Titos belief.
So tough luck. Your not even sure you are right, because you dont really know.
We say we do know. We tell you how you can know. You refuse to take a crack at it and proceed to denigrate us because we have done something that you simply refuse to put to the test yourself.
Testimony is hearsay. It does not constitute evidence. I could relate my own 'testimony' I have had experiences where I believed I was haunted. some of my earlier years were very frightening indeed.
You forget or perhaps didn't bother to read where I explained I was once a devout christian. Unlike you or tito or Bruce, I was also introspective enough to question why I believed. I did not accept what I was told, because that's what sheep do. Instead I searched and discovered that I was being misled.
And yes I have studied the bible. Front to back.
Oh and the 'hauntings' I came to understand what they were. With that understanding they went away. Well mostly I still get them (very rarely) but I am no longer afraid. because there is nothing supernatural about them at all.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 19, 2012, 12:43:20 AM
Thats like posting negativity in a tread about someones magnet motor though you never wound a coil, fiddled with batteries, nor magnets. You just read about it and formed your own 'opinions'. Well there are many people here that can attest to learning more by doing than just what they read in any books.
Its not like we can teach you anything. You just throw it in our faces. So beit. Thats the kind of person you are. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
I refer back to my previous statement. Its not you cant teach me its that I have already been there. I was born again. slain in the lord, spoke in tongues, witnessed miracles, been the subject of miracles. Yes everything. before that I was raised a catholic. my family are all devout christians my parents are messianic jews. one of my wifes best friends is the pastor of her own church. she and her husband are two of the nicest people I know.
So don't claim you cant teach me.
I was also an electronics technician I have wound hundreds of coils, Worked with batteries, designed magnetic solenoids, and play with magnets constantly. Currently I am a software programmer. If I don't know about something I refrain from commenting until I have learnt. Such as the recent threads about herons fountains. I now have a much better understanding of hydraulics than I did just a year ago. I designed my own OU heron fountain. of course it doesn't work but by doing such I was able to teach myself why it doesn't work. That's why I am here. I have an insatiable curiosity.
Therefore I know when someone makes a claim about a coil that is completely untrue. and other baseless claims.
Such as your baseless claims about me.
And I notice you don't try to defend the bible either.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 19, 2012, 12:57:28 AM
Show me the post that Tito concedes defeat? Those are your words not his. What do you guys do? Find books on how to be an "amature discussion twister". Because thats all you are doing. Twisting words. Once others compare what Tito said then what you said, they can see the twist and who is doing the twisting. ;)
I see now that you must not have read or absorbed much of the Bible if you even tried. Because if you did, you would know that our belief is that we can only be saved by faith alone. Or maybe you didnt get to that part.
So all that you say in this statement....
"By saying you must rely on faith, you are saying you have no basis for your belief."
...is a farce. It is an attack, putting in peoples minds what you want them to hear vs the truth, of which you seem to make that up as you go along. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on October 18, 2012, 10:48:29 PM
that's it no more talk.
That's the quote I responded to. so perhaps its you that is making stuff up?
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 19, 2012, 01:13:10 AM
How wrong you are. Thats exactly where a real scientist would stop. you cannot prove (or disprove) the spiritual. So it stops there.
Testimony is hearsay. It does not constitute evidence. I have had experiences where I believed I was haunted. some of my earlier years were very frightening indeed.
You forget or perhaps didnt bother to read where I explained I was once a devout christian. Unlike you or tito or Bruce, I was also introspective enough to question why I believed. I didn't not accept what I was told because that's what sheep do. Instead I searched and discovered that I was being misled.
And yes I have studied the bible. Front to back.
Oh and the 'hauntings' I came to understand what they were. With that understanding they went away. Well mostly I still get them (very rarely) but I am no longer afraid. because there is nothing supernatural about them at all.
I refer back to my previous statement. Its not you cant teach me its that I have already been there. I was born again. slain in the lord, spoke in tongues, witnessed miracles, been the subject of miracles. Yes everything. before that I was raised a catholic. my family are all devout christians my parents are messianic jews. one of my wifes best friends is the pastor of her own church. she and her husband are two of the nicest people I know.
So don't claim you cant teach me.
I was also an electronics technician I have wound hundreds of coils, Worked with batteries, designed magnetic solenoids, and play with magnets constantly. Currently I am a software programmer. If I don't know about something I refrain from commenting until I have learnt. Such as the recent threads about herons fountains. I now have a much better understanding of hydraulics than I did just a year ago. I designed my own OU heron fountain. of course it doesn't work but by doing such I was able to teach myself why it doesn't work. That's why I am here. I have an insatiable curiosity.
Therefore I know when someone makes a claim about a coil that is completely untrue. and other baseless claims.
Such as your baseless claims about me.
And I notice you don't try to defend the bible either.
"How wrong you are. Thats exactly where a real scientist would stop. you cannot prove (or disprove) the spiritual. So it stops there."
Wrong. There are plenty of scientists that study belief in God beyond physical proof of his existence. And they do comparisons among believers and non. You gotta catch up son.
"Testimony is hearsay. It does not constitute evidence. I have had experiences where I believed I was haunted. some of my earlier years were very frightening indeed."
According to God testimony is proofs that we can provide. Take it or leave it. And you chose to leave.
Ive never had haunted experiences. Should I just conclude that 'you' are nuts as you do us? ;) Think. Should we hound you and and say all the things you say to us for what we say we have 'seen'? We should just assume you are lying. Cmon dude.
"You forget or perhaps didnt bother to read where I explained I was once a devout christian. Unlike you or tito or Bruce, I was also introspective enough to question why I believed. I didn't not accept what I was told because that's what sheep do. Instead I searched and discovered that I was being misled."
What is your definition of "devout Christian"? Because "I was also introspective enough to question why I believed. I didn't not accept what I was told because that's what sheep do. Instead I searched and discovered that I was being misled. " doesnt make sense for a "devout Christian".
What I get from that is you were devout to what you were told, not necessarily to God. So you must not have known him. So what steps did you take to become in disbelief? What proofs do you have to prove your path of choice?
"Oh and the 'hauntings' I came to understand what they were. With that understanding they went away. Well mostly I still get them (very rarely) but I am no longer afraid. because there is nothing supernatural about them at all."
Well I hear all this of the hauntings, that werent. But no explanation of what they were or how you found them to be just common happenings. Just like you dont put up your 'proofs' that brought you to disbelief. But we are suppose to accept that as fact?
What? You dont care what we believe in? ::) Think Cuz it seem you do or you wouldnt be posting here. You asked the 'curious' question. ;)
"So don't claim you cant teach me."
Your cup is full. ;)
"I was also an electronics technician I have wound hundreds of coils, Worked with batteries, designed magnetic solenoids, and play with magnets constantly. Currently I am a software programmer. If I don't know about something I refrain from commenting until I have learnt. Such as the recent threads about herons fountains. I now have a much better understanding of hydraulics than I did just a year ago. I designed my own OU heron fountain. of course it doesn't work but by doing such I was able to teach myself why it doesn't work. That's why I am here. I have an insatiable curiosity.
Therefore I know when someone makes a claim about a coil that is completely untrue. and other baseless claims."
I never made a statement on your technical skill level or knowledge of such. If you cant see that I was giving an anlaogy, then I dont know what I can say. ;)
"Such as your baseless claims about me.
And I notice you don't try to defend the bible either."
Baseless? ??? You have shown me no proofs that are the basis of your disbelief. You only say that you were a devout christian and eventually found reasons not to be, and you were haunted for a while till you realized that it was something else?
You show none of your proofs for disbelief. Maybe you were not a 'devout' as you might know devout really is..
Or are you just making that up? But if we give you a simplified story as such, it must be just a fairy tale. ??? ;)
Defend the Bible? The Bible is fine. I havnt gone back through all your posts, because im not looking how to beat you at anything that I need to do so. Have you posted against any scripture that I need to be defending? Would me quoting the Bible for 'you', the "read from front to back" guy, do any good? I already know the answer to that. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 19, 2012, 01:17:06 AM
That's the quote I responded to. so perhaps its you that is making stuff up?
Lol Thats not defeat. Thats Tito saying he has better things to do than deal with your disbelief. The apostles would not even come back to a house of disbelief once they realized it. They had much better things to do. Im sure youve read all about it. ;)
lol big defeat. What? Do you want a trophy? Are you the big man on campus now? What a joke.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 19, 2012, 01:13:10 AM
I refer back to my previous statement. Its not you cant teach me its that I have already been there. I was born again. slain in the lord, spoke in tongues, witnessed miracles, been the subject of miracles. Yes everything. before that I was raised a catholic. my family are all devout christians my parents are messianic jews. one of my wifes best friends is the pastor of her own church. she and her husband are two of the nicest people I know.
So don't claim you cant teach me.
I seemed to have missed that paragraph.
Sooo, what happened? How did you feel back then of these things being considered proofs?
Ive never had any reasons to disbelieve along the way. I know things are different with everyone. Ive never had a broken bone, or a stitch either. Same thing, its different for everyone..
Sorry to here that you went through all that and ended up with none of it. I cant imagine.
You dont need a church to guide you. Only the bible. ;) Ill pray for ya. Whether you like it or not. ;)
Magzimus Levitcus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 19, 2012, 02:43:38 AM
I seemed to have missed that paragraph.
Sooo, what happened? How did you feel back then of these things being considered proofs?
Ive never had any reasons to disbelieve along the way. I know things are different with everyone. Ive never had a broken bone, or a stitch either. Same thing, its different for everyone..
Sorry to here that you went through all that and ended up with none of it. I cant imagine.
You dont need a church to guide you. Only the bible. ;) Ill pray for ya. Whether you like it or not. ;)
Magzimus Levitcus
Hi Mags,
Curious Chris is a warning to us all. As the scriptures have said, truly it is better to have never known the truth then to know the truth and to turn from it.
2Pe 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow (pig) that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (mud).
@ Curious Chris
Your only hope is to repent, (change of direction, about face)in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Fall to your knees and ask the Lord to help you with your unbelief.
Mags is correct, the early apostles and church, would shake the dust from their sandals to the community that received not their testimony. And the bible says it will be easier on Sodom and Gemmorah at the judgment, than on them!
Repent while there is still time for you. Otherwise, things in your life will become 7 times worse. Saul himself lost his sight until he "saw". Believe and call on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your household shall be saved!
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 19, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Hi Mags,
Curious Chris is a warning to us all. As the scriptures have said, truly it is better to have never known the truth then to know the truth and to turn from it.
2Pe 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow (pig) that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (mud).
@ Curious Chris
Your only hope is to repent, (change of direction, about face)in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Fall to your knees and ask the Lord to help you with your unbelief.
Mags is correct, the early apostles and church, would shake the dust from their sandals to the community that received not their testimony. And the bible says it will be easier on Sodom and Gemmorah at the judgment, than on them!
Repent while there is still time for you. Otherwise, things in your life will become 7 times worse. Saul himself lost his sight until he "saw". Believe and call on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your household shall be saved!
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
why are you telling us about it then? ::)
hey godbot... jesus fucking christ! how stupid are you? you keep quoting this silly book of fairytales that was written by men. it means jack squat. circular arguments such as yours are not going to convert anyone here... the only people you're going to sell such weak argument to are other godtards like you.
YOU ARE ALL filthy spooners. YOU are ALL guilty of the original spoon. the ONLY way to eternal life and everlasting salvation is to beg the forgiveness of YOUR LORD AND MASTER, the creator and shaper of the universe, the flying spaghetti monster. REPENT YOUR SPOONS! REPENT YOU WICKED, FILTHY SPOONERS.hey brucetard... you know how when you read what i just wrote about the flying spaghetti monster, you think to yourself... 'how dumb'? that's EXACTLY what we think when you bloviate about jesus fucking christ.
if mags and your asinine book of fairytales are so wise... dust off your smelly feet and shut the fuck up about your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 19, 2012, 11:53:30 AM
why are you telling us about it then? ::)
hey godbot... jesus fucking christ! how stupid are you? you keep quoting this silly book of fairytales that was written by men. it means jack squat. circular arguments such as yours are not going to convert anyone here... the only people you're going to sell such weak argument to are other godtards like you.
YOU ARE ALL filthy spooners. YOU are ALL guilty of the original spoon. the ONLY way to eternal life and everlasting salvation is to beg the forgiveness of YOUR LORD AND MASTER, the creator and shaper of the universe, the flying spaghetti monster. REPENT YOUR SPOONS! REPENT YOU WICKED, FILTHY SPOONERS.
hey brucetard... you know how when you read what i just wrote about the flying spaghetti monster, you think to yourself... 'how dumb'? that's EXACTLY what we think when you bloviate about jesus fucking christ.
if mags and your asinine book of fairytales are so wise... dust off your smelly feet and shut the fuck up about your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
And this from a guy that wants to open his own free energy site. It should be a 'nashing' success. He will beat each member to a blithering pulp, day after day. Come hither little children, we have candy...
And here we have a wonderful quote from Wilby the Great, the Imagination Man....
"
YOU ARE ALL filthy spooners. YOU are ALL guilty of the original spoon. the ONLY way to eternal life and everlasting salvation is to beg the forgiveness of YOUR LORD AND MASTER, the creator and shaper of the universe, the flying spaghetti monster. REPENT YOUR SPOONS! REPENT YOU WICKED, FILTHY SPOONERS."Wow, that brought a tear to my eye. Thank you, you , you wonderful man. :-*
Thats right folks, you read it first right here! Never before spoken or written. Its an original!! Folks get your copy before he stops saying it, or you will be really missing out!! Get a copy for your kids, as they will enjoy the splendid words of Wilby the Imagination man. A perfect addition to anyones library and vocabulary!!
Oh yeah, did I mention Wilby is making his own forum site? ;) Yes I did. And with free membership, each and every member gets free 'spaghetti' for each logon. Parmesan anyone? And bring your own 'spoon', your gunna need it. :o ;)
Keep up the 'good' works Wilby.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 19, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
And this from a guy that wants to open his own free energy site. It should be a 'nashing' success. He will beat each member to a blithering pulp, day after day. Come hither little children, we have candy...
And here we have a wonderful quote from Wilby the Great, the Imagination Man....
"YOU ARE ALL filthy spooners. YOU are ALL guilty of the original spoon. the ONLY way to eternal life and everlasting salvation is to beg the forgiveness of YOUR LORD AND MASTER, the creator and shaper of the universe, the flying spaghetti monster. REPENT YOUR SPOONS! REPENT YOU WICKED, FILTHY SPOONERS."
Wow, that brought a tear to my eye. Thank you, you , you wonderful man. :-*
Thats right folks, you read it first right here! Never before spoken or written. Its an original!! Folks get your copy before he stops saying it, or you will be really missing out!! Get a copy for your kids, as they will enjoy the splendid words of Wilby the Imagination man. A perfect addition to anyones library and vocabulary!!
Oh yeah, did I mention Wilby is making his own forum site? ;) Yes I did. And with free membership, each and every member gets free 'spaghetti' for each logon. Parmesan anyone? And bring your own 'spoon', your gunna need it. :o ;)
Keep up the 'good' works Wilby.
Magzimus Leviticus
i don't give a rat's arse about what a godtard like you thinks.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 19, 2012, 12:58:32 PM
i don't give a rat's arse about what a godtard like you thinks.
Sure you do Wlbert. Or you would be here saying anything at all. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 19, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
Hi Mags,
Curious Chris is a warning to us all. As the scriptures have said, truly it is better to have never known the truth then to know the truth and to turn from it.
2Pe 2:20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow (pig) that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (mud).
@ Curious Chris
Your only hope is to repent, (change of direction, about face)in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Fall to your knees and ask the Lord to help you with your unbelief.
Mags is correct, the early apostles and church, would shake the dust from their sandals to the community that received not their testimony. And the bible says it will be easier on Sodom and Gemmorah at the judgment, than on them!
Repent while there is still time for you. Otherwise, things in your life will become 7 times worse. Saul himself lost his sight until he "saw". Believe and call on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your household shall be saved!
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
;) :)
Mags I'll try and answer some of your comments.
Tito threw in the towel. that is an admission of failure.
Its not up to me to prove the bible is false. All I need to do is to prove believers in the bible are unreliable. in other words they are inconsistent. If you go back and read all my posts carefully you will see that's exactly what I have been doing.
It is you that needs to prove the bible is gods word. As they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Ask your scientific christian friends to prove God using the scientific method. The honest ones will say they cannot. The dishonest ones will try to quantify the unquantifiable (testimony is unquantifiable).
With respect to 'testimony' I will elaborate.
If I told you two stories
1/ "I was chased by a rabbit"
2/ "I was chased by a 60ft rabbit"
Both are testimony. one is clearly false. I personally would be inclined to believe the first one and discount the second as absolute rubbish. of course you, bruce and tito would believe the second if uttered by Billy Graham.
You put your faith into the person telling the story and not the story. That is a mistake. Always check the story. Then you can determine if the teller is reliable. not the other way around.
I did not come out of my experiences with nothing as you imply.
I came out with the understanding that while I was a christian I believed in the lies told to me.
I came out with a much greater understanding of the human condition.
I came out with an understanding of what self deception is and how to avoid it.
In other words I came out of it much greater than when I went into it. I am a better person because of it.
Think of it like trying to swim cross a rapid river. I reached the other side. I beat the river. meanwhile you are still drowning (happily I am sure).
Bruce.
Yes you should avoid anyone who has risen above religion. one must always be afraid of those who might prove to you that you are mistaken.
This is the greatest fear of religious leaders and therefore it is something they work very hard to neutralise. Think of the many many religious leaders (not just christian but they are good at it) who have fallen because their followers discovered the truth.
start your research here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_involving_evangelical_Christians
Religion is about keeping people under control. knowledge leads to people you cannot control and therefore knowledge is evil (the first evil) in the eyes of religion.
Tito and Bruce are beyond hope (IMHO). You mags on the other hand like chet are more open to discovering the truth. So if there is anything I would like you to get from our interaction its the ability to question what you are told, I could ask no more.
Question everyone INCLUDING ME. Don't automatically trust anyone or anything. Always search for the truth yourself
and most of all QUESTION YOURSELF and your own MOTIVES. ask yourself, WHY do I believe this? Did I really search for the truth or did I only listen to the answers that I wanted to hear?
This last question is by far the biggest failing of all believers.
Like I said to my brother just yesterday. How many times do you get a visiting preacher to your church. They make sometimes extraordinary claims. and yet no one ever says "Hey wait a minute. is he telling the truth?" "Can you please verify those statements" No no one does. some may go home and think to themselves that guy is wrong. but no-one will stand up in church and say that.
Therefore that person has successfully spread a mistruth. At least 75% of the sheep in that flock will beleive in what he says.
My brothers response by the way was a good one. He said he moved church to an apolitical church. He did it to avoid the politicising of religion. of course he missed exactly what I meant. but at least he got it half right.
P.S. The 60ft Rabbit that was my first recallable nightmare as a 5 year old :)
Cris
Not trying to come down on you here, so just take it as a thought comparison. :)
Do you treat people in your family that are believers the same as you do Tito? Do you announce their defeat when your questions are not answered to your requirements?
Hope you dont mind talking about that.
Mags
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 19, 2012, 12:11:35 AM
That's sad I actually expected more from you. I was going to get into an intellectual debate. you know you say but chris scholars have used data mining to show the bible is correct and I come back with its been proven with enough words data mining can show you anything and then you say what about numerology and so on and so forth.
But instead you conceded defeat.
By saying you must rely on faith, you are saying you have no basis for your belief.
The most disappointing thing about your failure to defend the bible. Is that I dont get to remind you that the jews wrote the old testament. According to you with the guidance of the holy spirit.
Why then do the Jews not believe in the new testament? Perhaps the new testament wasnt written with the guidance of the holy spirit?
Mores the shame.
This is the nature of a believer they do not even understand enough to question themselves.
I'm getting angry with this site!, Why i can't easily log-in!!!!!!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
You don't really get it do you? ;D
i conceded defeat? :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o how? why? when? :o :o :o :o :o :o wow. :o :o :o :o
That is not even in my vocabulary ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D bwahahahahahhahaahhhahahahhahhahaha. lol
First i'm always having trouble with this site! >:(
Second i'm having difficulties in explaining so many things in english ;D ;D ;D
Third i felt lazy when the question is just a repetition and i have to repeat the answer again and again. i think your not reading some previous post.
ok i will explain again: for the sake of your doubt ;D
First, You must know and believe that the Bible was inspired by the Holy spirit. and we can read that ok, and it was tested in time. and the logic is
I will not Believe if it is not from the bible because its the only book that was written inspired by God.
The jew are not believing because of jealosy, and they are hard headed like atheist. ;D
You know what: the wrong thing to you is, you are concluding me into something that i did not say. like "numerology", "defeat" etc!.
if we are not going to talk base from the bible then there is no reason to prolong this discussion. got that! >:(
THE NATURE OF A BELIEVER IS THEY BELIEVE EVEN THEY DIDN'T SEE BUT WITH LOGIC AND HUMILITY ;D AND
THE NATURE OF ATHEIST IS THEY CAN'T BELIEVE IF NOT SEE IT FIRST AND THAT IS NOT GOOD TO GOD.
AND YOU REALLY CAN SENSE WHO REALLY ARE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE. ;D ;D ;D
Simple: FAITH, JESUS IS THE WORD, AND DOER OF THE WORD, JESUS IS GOD AND SON OF GOD, BIBLE AND JESUS IS ONE. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT THEN WE CAN TALK ;)
YOU know what it is your advantage cause i cannot quit express very good in english, but because Jesus is in me you don't have a chance even a single dust in your eye. ;)
Here is your problem: YOU ARE LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE LIKE THOMAS.
JESUS SAID : BLESSED ARE THOSE WHO BELIEVE BUT DIDN'T SEE. ITS CONFLICT IS IT NOT.
GOD IS SPIRIT AND SHOULD WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT. IS THAT HARD TO BELIEVE? OR YOUR JUST HARD HEADED AND LACK OF FAITH. ;D
AND THEREFORE ALL OF YOUR EVIDENCE ARE NOTHING BUT A MESH. OWH WHAT A MESH ;D ;D ;D ;D
ANOTHER ONE: IF YOU ARE PROCLAIMING THAT YOU WON IS LIKE A KING PUTTING ITS CROWN BY HIS SELF, WHAT A SHAME. LOL BWAHAHAHAHAHHA
TITO L. ORACION
Quote from: Magluvin on October 19, 2012, 07:21:18 PM
Cris
Not trying to come down on you here, so just take it as a thought comparison. :)
Do you treat people in your family that are believers the same as you do Tito? Do you announce their defeat when your questions are not answered to your requirements?
Hope you dont mind talking about that.
Mags
Good question
I have to live with my family. So I tolerate some of their silliness. But when they say something particularly silly I call them out on it. Like my other brother the less reasonable one Who claims everything is a conspiracy.
He believes that 911 was a conspiracy. Whether it was or not is actually a moot point. The point is, he made these claims based on nothing other than that someone in his church told him it was, he then went and researched everything he could find to prove it was and ignored every alternate viewpoint. Of course it wasn't a conspiracy, but a lot of religious people want to believe it is (note the use of the word 'want') They want to beleive because it fosters an "us and them attitude" and an us and them attitude is a part of the control of the flock. Making someone believe the rest of the world is evil is a form of control. It is also incredibly evil in and of itself. You will see on this forum and others if someone makes that claim I stand up and say rubbish, like the ridiculous chemtrails claim, that is the product of sick minds.
Now to Tito. As a fellow believer you don't see his behaviour as bad. You ignore the smugness of his posts. The ridicule he tries to dish out. I know he's not very good at it. But he tries, poor thing. note his attempt at smug laughter. I do try to refrain myself from responding in kind. believe it or not tito is getting the very refrained version.
Tito made a claim. A claim that the proof of God is the Bible.
I called him out on that. I asked him to prove it.
He then went from being very wordy. Like you, to claiming my lack of faith is the reason I can't see the bible is the truth and therefore he is not speaking anymore. That is what is known as "throwing in the towel".
You sarcastically said my cup is full, I ignored it originally but now I'll say something.
Actually my cup is not anywhere near it. I have had a lot of experiences more than some but a lot less than others. I have a lot more to experience and learn. That is where I differ from you Tito and Bruce. I actually want to learn. I want to understand my mistakes and better myself. The clue to doing that is leaving your mind open to the truth and not hide behind being told what to believe by others. I operate on this forum for that reason. I trust science I do not trust scientists. So I seek out alternate viewpoints. Religion is one of those areas where I have learnt. The lesson was simple. Religion is fraught with deception.
The biggest deception of all. The centre of the falsehood of all religion. The reason why religion is as pervasive as it is today. What is that pervasive lie? It is the tenet that
you fail religion, religion never fails you.
Think about that honestly for a while. It doesn't matter what the religion is. It doesn't matter how many lies are told. The religion has a simple answer to your questions and doubt. The answer is "obviously you do not have enough faith, therefore you can never understand. Tito said it, Bruce said it, you echoed it. It is simply the biggest lie of all and because you are not allowed and therefore don't question it, you don't see it for what it is. In essence it is the ultimate belittlement to a believer. "You are less than I because I have faith and you don't". Obviously I see the statement as exactly the opposite. To me it says "I am stupid enough to believe without question, You must question everything". to me its praise indeed, so thank you Tito.
Did you look at that list linked in my last post? Ask yourself. How many of the believers of those fraudulent 'pastors' accepted without doubt that they were being told the truth. How many believed that god spoke to them through their pastor. That their pastor was doing gods work? We now know that that is not true, they where common criminals. I often ask the question about the pope. If you are not aware the Pope can declare himself infallible. So does infallibility come before or after the declaration, how does he know he is infallible?
Ask yourself. Is your pastor telling you the truth in everything. Is he somehow better than those others. Are you somehow smarter than their followers? If you think you are then you are a fool. They were just like you. They are still just like you. Yet they could not tell the difference between the truth and a fraud.
I am also aware of your attempts at diversion.
Brain food time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRJrC500KPU&feature=plcp
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 19, 2012, 11:24:50 PM
Good question
I have to live with my family. So I tolerate some of their silliness. But when they say something particularly silly I call them out on it. Like my other brother the less reasonable one Who claims everything is a conspiracy.
He believes that 911 was a conspiracy. Whether it was or not is actually a moot point. The point is, he made these claims based on nothing other than that someone in his church told him it was, he then went and researched everything he could find to prove it was and ignored every alternate viewpoint. Of course it wasn't a conspiracy, but a lot of religious people want to believe it is (note the use of the word 'want') They want to beleive because it fosters an "us and them attitude" and an us and them attitude is a part of the control of the flock. Making someone believe the rest of the world is evil is a form of control. It is also incredibly evil in and of itself. You will see on this forum and others if someone makes that claim I stand up and say rubbish, like the ridiculous chemtrails claim, that is the product of sick minds.
Now to Tito. As a fellow believer you don't see his behaviour as bad. You ignore the smugness of his posts. The ridicule he tries to dish out. I know he's not very good at it. But he tries, poor thing. note his attempt at smug laughter. I do try to refrain myself from responding in kind. believe it or not tito is getting the very refrained version.
Tito made a claim. A claim that the proof of God is the Bible. I called him out on that. I asked him to prove it.
He then went from being very wordy. Like you, to claiming my lack of faith is the reason I can't see the bible is the truth and therefore he is not speaking anymore. That is what is known as "throwing in the towel".
You sarcastically said my cup is full, I ignored it originally but now I'll say something.
Actually my cup is not anywhere near it. I have had a lot of experiences more than some but a lot less than others. I have a lot more to experience and learn. That is where I differ from you Tito and Bruce. I actually want to learn. I want to understand my mistakes and better myself. The clue to doing that is leaving your mind open to the truth and not hide behind being told what to believe by others. I operate on this forum for that reason. I trust science I do not trust scientists. So I seek out alternate viewpoints. Religion is one of those areas where I have learnt. The lesson was simple. Religion is fraught with deception.
The biggest deception of all. The centre of the falsehood of all religion. The reason why religion is as pervasive as it is today. What is that pervasive lie? It is the tenet that you fail religion, religion never fails you.
Think about that honestly for a while. It doesn't matter what the religion is. It doesn't matter how many lies are told. The religion has a simple answer to your questions and doubt. The answer is "obviously you do not have enough faith, therefore you can never understand. Tito said it, Bruce said it, you echoed it. It is simply the biggest lie of all and because you are not allowed and therefore don't question it, you don't see it for what it is. In essence it is the ultimate belittlement to a believer. "You are less than I because I have faith and you don't". Obviously I see the statement as exactly the opposite. To me it says "I am stupid enough to believe without question, You must question everything". to me its praise indeed, so thank you Tito.
Did you look at that list linked in my last post? Ask yourself. How many of the believers of those fraudulent 'pastors' accepted without doubt that they were being told the truth. How many believed that god spoke to them through their pastor. That their pastor was doing gods work? We now know that that is not true, they where common criminals. I often ask the question about the pope. If you are not aware the Pope can declare himself infallible. So does infallibility come before or after the declaration, how does he know he is infallible?
Ask yourself. Is your pastor telling you the truth in everything. Is he somehow better than those others. Are you somehow smarter than their followers? If you think you are then you are a fool. They were just like you. They are still just like you. Yet they could not tell the difference between the truth and a fraud.
I am also aware of your attempts at diversion.
Hey Chris
"Good question
I have to live with my family. So I tolerate some of their silliness. But when they say something particularly silly I call them out on it. Like my other brother the less reasonable one Who claims everything is a conspiracy.
He believes that 911 was a conspiracy. Whether it was or not is actually a moot point. The point is, he made these claims based on nothing other than that someone in his church told him it was, he then went and researched everything he could find to prove it was and ignored every alternate viewpoint. Of course it wasn't a conspiracy, but a lot of religious people want to believe it is (note the use of the word 'want') They want to beleive because it fosters an "us and them attitude" and an us and them attitude is a part of the control of the flock. Making someone believe the rest of the world is evil is a form of control. It is also incredibly evil in and of itself. You will see on this forum and others if someone makes that claim I stand up and say rubbish, like the ridiculous chemtrails claim, that is the product of sick minds."
Ok, Ill accept that answer. At least you are not hard core like Wilbert. ;] But then there is the conspiracy stuff....
I could tell you about Monsanto GMO corn, soy, wheat, cotton. Gmo corn has pesticide built in. Bugs eat it and the walls of theirs stomach fall apart, quickly mind you, fast enough to kill the insect at minimal damage to the plant. But would you believe it?
Do you like corn? Do you know what this gmo corn does to your stomach and intestines? It causes holes in the lining. When raw foods possibly enter these holes and that raw food enters the blood stream, the immune system attacks. This can cause allergic reactions to these foods. The more corn we eat, the faster this happens.
85% of corn produced in the US is GMO. Approved by the FDA, of which 9 people from Monsanto run. Fact check it.
Fact check that the Japanese said they will wait 20 years to see how the American children turn out.
Fact check how many countries reject GMO foods and production of.
Fact check what 'scientists' in France just published about GMO. That one is blowing it up big time. More awareness.
Fact check milk. The hormones, antibiotics and why, cows fed gmo corn.
Fact check that I Mags cant digest that milk, thus causing so much pressure that I got a hernia from not being able to go to the bathroom but more than every 3 days.
But I can drink organic milk. Hmm. Well, Im not allergic to 'milk' But the FDA states that there is no significant difference between milk with hormones and organic, right on the container label.
Come on over for a week, Ill show you. ;]
Fact check that Monsanto is patenting plants and seeds. Our laws did not allow patenting 'life'. So what happened?
Now Monsanto 'somehow finds' farmers that just happen to have a patch of Monsantos soy plants growing 'next to the road' growing in the organic farmers field. Monsanto takes them to court and makes them burn their whole crop and seed, leaving them with nothing left to do but sell the farm.
In the 80s and 90s in Pa, before I came down here, farmers were paid to stop farming the land by the government, ever. Not even a new owner could grow on it. Why would that be?
Now all those farms are growing again my friends say. All GMO and biofuel crops. Thats why. All those farms were organic then.
But that is all just acceptable to you. Just business as usual. Good luck to you. ???
As for 911, there are 'many' strong questions that havnt been answered nor addressed acceptably. If I go into that this page may overflow and cause this site to crash. ;] Thats a whole other thread here somewhere. ;]
"Now to Tito. As a fellow believer you don't see his behaviour as bad. You ignore the smugness of his posts. The ridicule he tries to dish out. I know he's not very good at it. But he tries, poor thing. note his attempt at smug laughter. I do try to refrain myself from responding in kind. believe it or not tito is getting the very refrained version.
Tito made a claim. A claim that the proof of God is the Bible.
I called him out on that. I asked him to prove it. "
Titos behavior is Tito who is communicating with others here for a while and took on some habits he learned here trying to fit in. The habits he has now are not the same as when he first started here. He and I have been here for about the same amount of time.
He does put forth his sense of humor. I accept it as such. He tries to make light of things with it.
If you know the Bible, then you know that asking for the proof you require is a loaded question. Just because you have not had the same 'experience' with God that he did, doesnt prove God does not exist. It is only your opinion.
"He then went from being very wordy. Like you, to claiming my lack of faith is the reason I can't see the bible is the truth and therefore he is not speaking anymore. That is what is known as "throwing in the towel". "
If you know the Bible from front to back then you know that walking away from a disbeliever is common once things go so far. If he chooses to come back for any reason it is his choice, as is yours. Even if we have faith and the Holy Spirit, etc, we are not perfected by it. We are better than we were. ;]
Ive seen many non believers and believers interpret the Bible differently. But i have also seen the ones that are consistent with their interpretation. The Bible says that we cant understand it properly without the Holy Spirit.
"You sarcastically said my cup is full, I ignored it originally but now I'll say something.
Actually my cup is not anywhere near it. I have had a lot of experiences more than some but a lot less than others. I have a lot more to experience and learn. That is where I differ from you Tito and Bruce. I actually want to learn. I want to understand my mistakes and better myself. The clue to doing that is leaving your mind open to the truth and not hide behind being told what to believe by others. I operate on this forum for that reason. I trust science I do not trust scientists. So I seek out alternate viewpoints. Religion is one of those areas where I have learnt. The lesson was simple. Religion is fraught with deception."
Would you agree that you are happy with whats in your cup so far when it comes to this subject, and dont want me to add to it? ;]
"Did you look at that list linked in my last post? Ask yourself. How many of the believers of those fraudulent 'pastors' accepted without doubt that they were being told the truth. How many believed that god spoke to them through their pastor. That their pastor was doing gods work? We now know that that is not true, they where common criminals. I often ask the question about the pope. If you are not aware the Pope can declare himself infallible. So does infallibility come before or after the declaration, how does he know he is infallible?
Ask yourself. Is your pastor telling you the truth in everything. Is he somehow better than those others. Are you somehow smarter than their followers? If you think you are then you are a fool. They were just like you. They are still just like you. Yet they could not tell the difference between the truth and a fraud."
Well sorry you had been involved with such a church. Not all are that way. The bible tells of false prophets. They use Gods word to get what they want. Yes I do know of these things. Corruption is everywhere. Possibly more bad than good considering religion. I cant say for sure, but things are getting worse in every facet of life. The Bible, written way back, describes these things very well. How could that be? ;]
Mags
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 20, 2012, 01:12:33 AM
snip...
The Bible, written way back, describes these things very well. How could that be?
snip...
Since the bible is written by men, about men, it is hardly surprising that issues back then, were really no different to issues now. Humans should learn from history, but rarely do, so that which has already happened will happen again with regular predictability. Those who do not learn from history are history bound to repeat it.
The real change in the last two thousand years of history, is the way we do things,(i.e. our technology) but not the actual things we do, and the reasons we do them. Our technological evolution has outpaced our social evolution, and with it has emerged the mirage that we are somehow different to the people of 2 millenia ago. But intrinsically, we are no different.
It is because we are no different today, than 'back then', that many of the moral, ethical and social lessons contained in some religious scripts are as relevent today as then. The message and its meaning are found within the plot, not the time, the place or the characters.
The stories are dealing with issues about the human condition, as it applies to all of us, and are not about the individual characters within the story, who are just the vehicle for conveying the message in the story.
For that reason, stories by homer or shakespeare will also be timeless in there nature, and forboding in their apparent pre-cogniscence of things to come.
2000 years or so ago something happened that threatened the reptiles in Jerusalem. I don't think it is probable that a number of people suffered from a common delusion. I don't think it probable that the Jewish politicians and the Roman politicians of the time went to the trouble of rounding up and killing people because they were comfortable with Christian philosophy. I don't think polluting the Christians with Roman idolatry just happened by chance. I don't care what you believe to be God like but some of the accounts these biblical authors came up with are pretty super human. Like when some selfrighteous pricks were stoning a prostitute to death and Christ walked in and said whoever has never fuckedup throw the next stone. The democrats disbursed. Or when his own entourage told him that a gentile wasn't worth Christ's attention and he got pissed. I find it improbable that a natural man would be able to call for the forgiveness of his executioners with his last breath. Maybe Christ only existed in the minds of these humans but doesn't all human reality exist in the mind?
Quote from: hoptoad on October 20, 2012, 03:29:14 AM
Since the bible is written by men, about men, it is hardly surprising that issues back then, were really no different to issues now. Humans should learn from history, but rarely do, so that which has already happened will happen again with regular predictability. Those who do not learn from history are history bound to repeat it.
The real change in the last two thousand years of history, is the way we do things,(i.e. our technology) but not the actual things we do, and the reasons we do them. Our technological evolution has outpaced our social evolution, and with it has emerged the mirage that we are somehow different to the people of 2 millenia ago. But intrinsically, we are no different.
It is because we are no different today, than 'back then', that many of the moral, ethical and social lessons contained in some religious scripts are as relevent today as then. The message and its meaning are found within the plot, not the time, the place or the characters.
The stories are dealing with issues about the human condition, as it applies to all of us, and are not about the individual characters within the story, who are just the vehicle for conveying the message in the story.
For that reason, stories by homer or shakespeare will also be timeless in there nature, and forboding in their apparent pre-cogniscence of things to come.
Hi Hoptoad,
A very well written prose. Some of which I actually agree with! Who'd have thunk it!
But, alas, here is where we differ.
ALL scripture (everyone of the 66 books of the bible) are INSPIRED of God by his Holy Spirit, as men of old were moved by His Spirit. It is given for reproof and instruction in righteousness (defined as right standing with God) so that the CHILD OF GOD might be complete.
You are right, that for an UNBELIEVER to read the bible, it may as well be a history book. BUT once one comes to faith in JESUS CHRIST, it becomes ALIVE. A LIVING WORD. As I have stated MANY times now, that just the BIBLE PROPHECY contained within the pages of the BIBLE, are EVIDENCE to the unbiased searcher of truth that the Scriptures are indeed true.
Scripture are to be interpreted with other scripture.
Man NEVER rights books about how evil and unrighteous he is, nor about his downfalls and sins. Just reading through the self righteous posts of many, on this thread, are evidence of that....lol
Yet the bible does just that. It starts with creation and the fall of man from fellowship with God, for which he was created, and a prophecy of said fellowships future restoration and then ends with the restoration of said fellowship, living forever in the prescense of God, during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Because of the Bible, I also know the future events and can understand present day events in light of those prophecies.
Satan quotes the bible all of the time, but uses it twisted and out of context. .... ie his discourse with eve, and the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness.
"Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen." (Matthew 5:18) God's Son comes from heaven and is above all others. Everyone who comes from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all others. (John 3:31)
He speaks about what he has seen and heard, and yet no one believes him. (John 3:32)
But everyone who does believe him has shown that God is truthful. (John 3:33)
The Son was sent to speak God's message, and he has been given the full power of God's Spirit. (John 3:34)
The Father loves the Son and has given him everything. (John 3:35)
Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever. (John 3:36)
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
@ Tito and those believeing in same god,
A god that demands total trust from you in spite of his total physical absence, who is physically indifferent to the injustice and suffering in his creation, indifferent to the horrors that so many children experience everyday before dying young and suffering, is not a god that would strike home in my heart.
Such a god is to me the very manifestation of sadism.
Even if this kind of estranged god actually existed that you propose, this god seems hopelessly twisted. I would never obey such a mad god.
Still I want to do my best to express my love and care for those that suffers, and I will do so to the day of my death.
Now mr.Tito and all you other guys obeying this god of yours, here comes my question:
After have lived a long life in love and caring efforts, am I thereafter forced to enter your heaven, or do I have a choice, since I really do not want to be associated with a place linked to your god?
Or am I getting shunted down to the hellish regions, since I only was a loving and caring person without believing in your god?
Please keep from any loud advertising and just answer my question, since I really do not like your god and don't want to have too much to do with him.
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 20, 2012, 10:34:44 AM
ALL scripture (everyone of the 66 books of the bible) are INSPIRED of God by his Holy Spirit, as men of old were moved by His Spirit. It is given for reproof and instruction in righteousness (defined as right standing with God) so that the CHILD OF GOD might be complete.
You are right, that for an UNBELIEVER to read the bible, it may as well be a history book. BUT once one comes to faith in JESUS CHRIST, it becomes ALIVE. A LIVING WORD. As I have stated MANY times now, that just the BIBLE PROPHECY contained within the pages of the BIBLE, are EVIDENCE to the unbiased searcher of truth that the Scriptures are indeed true.
Scripture are to be interpreted with other scripture.
Man NEVER rights books about how evil and unrighteous he is, nor about his downfalls and sins. Just reading through the self righteous posts of many, on this thread, are evidence of that....lol
Yet the bible does just that. It starts with creation and the fall of man from fellowship with God, for which he was created, and a prophecy of said fellowships future restoration and then ends with the restoration of said fellowship, living forever in the prescense of God, during the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Because of the Bible, I also know the future events and can understand present day events in light of those prophecies.
Satan quotes the bible all of the time, but uses it twisted and out of context. .... ie his discourse with eve, and the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness.
"Heaven and earth may disappear. But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen." (Matthew 5:18)
God's Son comes from heaven and is above all others. Everyone who comes from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all others. (John 3:31)
He speaks about what he has seen and heard, and yet no one believes him. (John 3:32)
But everyone who does believe him has shown that God is truthful. (John 3:33)
The Son was sent to speak God's message, and he has been given the full power of God's Spirit. (John 3:34)
The Father loves the Son and has given him everything. (John 3:35)
Everyone who has faith in the Son has eternal life. But no one who rejects him will ever share in that life, and God will be angry with them forever. (John 3:36)
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
stupid is as stupid does... furthermore, that nonsense you posted is nothing more than your asinine opinion, not a fact.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 20, 2012, 10:34:44 AM
Man NEVER rights books about how evil and unrighteous he is, nor about his downfalls and sins. Just reading through the self righteous posts of many, on this thread, are evidence of that....lol
more of your blatant lying... man has written numerous books about how evil and unrighteous man can be. you'd know this if you had ever read a book other than your holey babble.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 20, 2012, 03:29:14 AM
Since the bible is written by men, about men, it is hardly surprising that issues back then, were really no different to issues now. Humans should learn from history, but rarely do, so that which has already happened will happen again with regular predictability. Those who do not learn from history are history bound to repeat it.
The real change in the last two thousand years of history, is the way we do things,(i.e. our technology) but not the actual things we do, and the reasons we do them. Our technological evolution has outpaced our social evolution, and with it has emerged the mirage that we are somehow different to the people of 2 millenia ago. But intrinsically, we are no different.
It is because we are no different today, than 'back then', that many of the moral, ethical and social lessons contained in some religious scripts are as relevent today as then. The message and its meaning are found within the plot, not the time, the place or the characters.
The stories are dealing with issues about the human condition, as it applies to all of us, and are not about the individual characters within the story, who are just the vehicle for conveying the message in the story.
For that reason, stories by homer or shakespeare will also be timeless in there nature, and forboding in their apparent pre-cogniscence of things to come.
Thats just your opinion, not a fact. ;]
Mags
Quote from: Gwandau on October 20, 2012, 10:41:11 AM
@ Tito and those believeing in same god,
A god that demands total trust from you in spite of his total physical absence, who is physically indifferent to the injustice and suffering in his creation, to the horrors that so many children experience everyday before dying young and suffering, is not a god that would strike home in my heart.
Such a god is to me the very manifestation of sadism.
Even if this kind of estranged god actually existed that you propose, this god seems hopelessly twisted. I would never obey such a mad god.
Still I want to do my best to express my love and care for those that suffers, and I will do so to the day of my death.
Now mr.Tito and all you other guys obeying this god of yours, here comes my question:
After have lived a long life in love and caring efforts, am I thereafter forced to enter your heaven, or do I have a choice, since I really do not want to be associated with a place linked to your god?
Or am I getting shunted down to the hellish regions, since I only was a loving and caring person without believing in your god?
Please keep from any loud advertising and just answer my question, since I really do not like your god and don't want to have too much to do with him.
Gwandau
Hey Gwandau
You said...."
After have lived a long life in love and caring efforts, am I thereafter forced to enter your heaven, or do I have a choice, since I really do not want to be associated with a place linked to your god?"
Yes you do have that choice. It seems that if you are interested enough to ask, then it might be a good idea to read a bit about it some, 'before' you keep 'that' choice. ;)
Dont take this badly... It seems that you have chosen your 'choice', much before you know about your choices. If you have a Bible, if you would, read the book of John. Its not that long. You might like it, or not. If you do, then read further. You have the right to choice. ;) You also have the right to try. Nobody can take that away from you, though they will try, and have. Many people, have been persecuted and murdered for reading and professing the Bible. Why is that? Were they loving and caring people like you that did these things? What was the threat that caused them to do so? ;)
Me asking you to read that is not me bullying you to do so. :) But it might help you with your choices you make.
If you are 'serious' about your question, then do this....
Before you read, be humble and simply ask God to help you understand it when you do read it. You will then read it all with a different understanding than just reading for the simplicity of what it says. That is key. ;)
Great question. I pray that you take my post as I intend it. Not what others might think of it.. This is your life. We have all done many worse things in life than what I suggest above. So there is nothing wrong with giving it a shot. Then see if your choice to have "already made' is the right one. ;)
Thanks
Mags
Quote from: Gwandau on October 20, 2012, 10:41:11 AM
@ Tito and those believeing in same god,
A god that demands total trust from you in spite of his total physical absence, who is physically indifferent to the injustice and suffering in his creation, to the horrors that so many children experience everyday before dying young and suffering, is not a god that would strike home in my heart.
Such a god is to me the very manifestation of sadism.
The TRUE and ONLY God, has stated that this world, ie, this Kingdom is under the temporary dominion of Satan and his minions, until such time as he is bound in the bottomeless pit for 1000 years. This is why in Matthew 6, we are taught to pray, "Thy kingdom come (because HIS kingdom has not yet come) THY will be done (because this IS NOT the will of God but the result and consequence of sin and of the law of death) ON EARTH as it is IN Heaven (because what is seen on earth now is a reflection of Satan and His Kingdom, except for those who have been ADOPTED into the Kingdom of Light!). This is why you must be BORN AGAIN. "for this purpose was the son of God manifest, to destroy the works of the devil."
Even if this kind of estranged god actually existed that you propose, this god seems hopelessly twisted. I would never obey such a mad god.
Who are you oh foolish man to stand in judgment of God? You who neither knows nor understands the things of God. "Jesus told us that HE doesn't have any darkness in him. Now we are telling you." (1 John 1:5)
Still I want to do my best to express my love and care for those that suffers, and I will do so to the day of my death.
"For GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD that he sent his only begotten son into the world, so that whosoever would believe on HIM would NOT perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)
Now mr.Tito and all you other guys obeying this god of yours, here comes my question:
After have lived a long life in love and caring efforts, am I thereafter forced to enter your heaven, or do I have a choice, since I really do not want to be associated with a place linked to your god?
Or am I getting shunted down to the hellish regions, since I only was a loving and caring person without believing in your god?
"Therefore there is no other name given, whereby we must be saved, save the Name of Jesus the Christ the annointed one of God." "It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and after that the judgement." "your good works (caring efforts) are as filthy rags (menstreul rags) before God. For ALL have sinned and there is NONE righteous, no, not one. And the wages of sin is death! But the FREE GIFT OF GOD is eternal life, through Jesus Christ his son."
Please keep from any loud advertising and just answer my question, since I really do not like your god and don't want to have too much to do with him.
You may not like him Gwandau, because you neither understand him nor know him. But before you were yet formed in your mother's womb, God knew you. And Jesus loves you and died for you, that you might have life. Open your heart and taste of the Lord and see that He is good! For he is a friend that sticks closer than a brother.... :)
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 20, 2012, 12:19:12 PM
i quote bruce the godtard and it's empty... how appropriate!
james 1:26
those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 20, 2012, 12:19:12 PM
The TRUE and ONLY God, has stated that this world, ie, this Kingdom is under the temporary dominion of Satan and his minions, until such time as he is bound in the bottomeless pit for 1000 years. This is why in Matthew 6, we are taught to pray, "Thy kingdom come (because HIS kingdom has not yet come) THY will be done (because this IS NOT the will of God but the result and consequence of sin and of the law of death) ON EARTH as it is IN Heaven (because what is seen on earth now is a reflection of Satan and His Kingdom, except for those who have been ADOPTED into the Kingdom of Light!). This is why you must be BORN AGAIN. "for this purpose was the son of God manifest, to destroy the works of the devil."
I don't know Bruce. This god of yours does not sound very powerful. "Hey guys, sorry, but I do not control the world right now, Satan does. Now now, don't let that worry you, I am still all powerful, I just don't want to rule the world right now. I can do it anytime I want, I just want Satan in control for the time being. It is all part of my divine plan, that's the ticket."
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 20, 2012, 12:28:18 PM
i quote bruce the godtard and it's empty... how appropriate!
james 1:26
those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless.
Yeah, empty. Just the way you want the readers to 'see' it. Wilbythetwister. That was a weak poke and accomplished nothing but to show that this is all you have for argument. ;) Now tell me, am I lying? ;D
Tight rein on their tongues? According to you, the quote was blank!!!! :o Again, your argument is 'empty', because you have no case. :P Just twist. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
:o @Mags and Bruce,
Wow, you guys are even blinder than the blind, since they at least know they are blind.
And there is another more nasty touch to the belief of the faither, since he actually believe that he know!!! :P ::) ???
But don't you see? : TO BELIEVE THAT YOU KNOW IS STILL JUST BELIEVING.
It doesn't matter if you have a deep communication with an inner voice, because this inner voice could be anything but the voice of any god, and that is exactly what this thread is about: PROBABILITIES.
I am beginning to understand why you guys really cannot see beyond your christian firewalls. You are all so well locked in within the boundaries of faith that you cannot in any possible way see beyond that encasement.
The sole reason for my last input was to elucidate the unsound mental setup behind the christian faith, and what was the reaction? I am now approached by zombie like behaviour, playing on patronizing strings with the hope to call forth the sheep to lead it "home". But I am a Lion, and I eat sheep for breakfast, so there goes that hope.
I understand your predicament, reality is such a cruel and unfair place, so who can refuse that option to be kept in a "safe" place, shielded against the absolute indifference of reality, tucked to bed every night by the assurance of your inner voice. (a highly probable definition of "inner voice": voice of the unconsciousness, adapting to fit your needs)
But that doesn't give you the right to start indoctrinate others. By doing that you are no better than the dope pusher, who says: try this.
It is really very close to the situation of a drug addict, and maybe that's why the drug addict with a near fatal OD so easily is converted to the cosy confines of your religion, since it is an excellent substitute to his former drug-shield against reality.
It has been very interesting to study the mental setup and the type of adapted brands of quasi logic fascilitated by you faithers here at this thread, and since I am fully aware that your religious experiences are genuine seen from your personal point of view, I would never doubt your honesty.
But since the religious experience of any religious tribe, not only christanity, all are absolutely void of proof in the scientific sense and does not in any way qualify the mythology behind any religion, every single religious experience ever experienced are a mere personal experience and should be kept as such.
It is the step from a personal experience into claiming it being the truth for everyone that equalizes the believer lost in delusion of knowledge with psychiatric cases.
A mental patient not being aware of his/hers mental disorder is suffering of anosognosia and we all see how well this fits to the group of belivers that believe that they actually know.
I must consider you as lost cases, since the intricacy and complexity of the self applied locks on your doors of pereception have made you into both the prisoner and the warden.
I must also agree that those guys that created this pattern of self imprisonment were brilliant, since people all over the world are falling into this trap like mouse into the bucket mouse trap.
Gwandau
Well ok. We definitely know where you stand.
Thats fine. Thats the way it is. And we is the way that we is. ;D You made your choice and we ours. But that disturbs you that we made our choices the way we have. Its clear in your post above.
In your post, you seem to come up with some reasons why we might choose as we do. That is because you dont know why, even though we tell you. But we know why you made your choice. Even if you didnt tell us. Its all in the Bible. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Hi Mags,
It saddens me that it is so difficult for them to see. If I wrote to you describing my wife, and our 25 year relationship and all she has done for me, and if you didn't believe me, and suggested my wife was a figment of my imagination, etc., and then you would act dumbfounded that I still claim to have a wife, and I am not swept away by your argument.
This is what they can not possibly understand, no matter how many times we tell it. Hey Mags, I have a relationship with Jesus. I met him when I was 17. I have known him and walked with him for over 30 years. I could fill novels of his miracles he has done on my behalf, and of his power he has revealed in me and through me. He speaks clearly to me, and also speaks to me daily through his Word. No religion. But they can't comprehend, and refuse to understand. So I give them over to the Lord to reveal himself to them. He is sovereign, and has a way of getting each of our attention, in ways that we can understand. They can neither understand nor comprehend. For the natural man understands not the things of the spirit, for they are foolishness to them. So be it.
I wish and pray salvation for each of them. But, no one comes unto the Father, unless his Holy Spirit draws their heart. Only the Holy Spirit can remove the blinders from their heart, that they might believe, and in believing, be saved.
The Lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family with peace,
Bruce
Quote from: Magluvin on October 20, 2012, 05:30:40 PM
Well ok. We definitely know where you stand.
Thats fine. Thats the way it is. And we is the way that we is. ;D You made your choice and we ours. But that disturbs you that we made our choices the way we have. Its clear in your post above.
Absolutely not,
the only thing that disturbs me is the attitude that all possible ways to push your dope is OK, as long as you succeed in getting one more addicted, especially when this even includes the conditioning of the children, totally unaware of the violation made upon their free will and totally unable to defend themselves.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 20, 2012, 05:30:40 PM
In your post, you seem to come up with some reasons why we might choose as we do. That is because you dont know why, even though we tell you. But we know why you made your choice. Even if you didnt tell us. Its all in the Bible. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Sorry but wrong again,
I know exactly what kind of events and psycological background that lies behind peoples descisions to take the jump into faith.
And I don't blame them, I just feel pity for them,
since what seems to be saving them is actually imprisoning them. And I was not referring to your conscious reasons for your choices, I was describing the scenario BEHIND it all. You see, in many cases ones reasons for making a choice is not the real reason. That's why it is extremely important to question every important decision you make in your life BEFORE you make it, and critically evaluate it from every angle possible.
"God did not create man in his own image, Man did create God in his own image."
"Religion is the opium of the masses."
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 20, 2012, 05:46:20 PM
Hi Mags,
It saddens me that it is so difficult for them to see. If I wrote to you describing my wife, and our 25 year relationship and all she has done for me, and if you didn't believe me, and suggested my wife was a figment of my imagination, etc., and then you would act dumbfounded that I still claim to have a wife, and I am not swept away by your argument.
This is what they can not possibly understand, no matter how many times we tell it. Hey Mags, I have a relationship with Jesus. I met him when I was 17. I have known him and walked with him for over 30 years. I could fill novels of his miracles he has done on my behalf, and of his power he has revealed in me and through me. He speaks clearly to me, and also speaks to me daily through his Word. No religion. But they can't comprehend, and refuse to understand. So I give them over to the Lord to reveal himself to them. He is sovereign, and has a way of getting each of our attention, in ways that we can understand. They can neither understand nor comprehend. For the natural man understands not the things of the spirit, for they are foolishness to them. So be it.
I wish and pray salvation for each of them. But, no one comes unto the Father, unless his Holy Spirit draws their heart. Only the Holy Spirit can remove the blinders from their heart, that they might believe, and in believing, be saved.
The Lord Jesus Christ bless you and your family with peace,
Bruce
I agree 100% Strange isnt it? Strange that there are so many of us that have consistency in our words and knowledge.
I was raised baptist, but didnt really get it till my late 30s. But, it did happen, and is happening all the time since. ;) ;D
When we think about it, do we see in their words and statements and how they say it, any form of really wanting to help us? From what most of them believe that we are mentally disturbed?
Lemme tell ya, if it were these people that ran an institution and treated the 'believer' patients like they show here, there would be some hell to pay when it were to be found out. So they are not here to help us. What they are here for is to belittle us and falsify our words to "distract" others from hearing and absorbing them by instilling doubt and lies.
These are the kind of people that would, if they were alone with mental patients in a room, abuse them. Considering that they believe 'we' are institution material, look how they treat us!!! So would I allow them to be in a room of helpless mental patients????
Its not that hard to see. Their ways are all over these pages.
So in reality, who are the real mental patient candidates that we can 'see' on these pages? Who are the ones that need to be behind a locked door for their actions?
Its all just silly. Fools as the Bible says. And they prove it every day.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Gwandau on October 20, 2012, 06:11:03 PM
Absolutely not,
the only thing that disturbs me is the attitude that all possible ways to push your dope is OK, as long as you succeed in getting one more addicted, especially when this even includes the conditioning of the children, totally unaware of the violation made upon their free will and totally unable to defend themselves.
Sorry but wrong again,
I know exactly what kind of events and psycological background that lies behind peoples descisions to take the jump into faith.
And I don't blame them, I just feel pity for them, since what seems to be saving them is actually imprisoning them.
And I was not referring to your conscious reasons for your choices, I was describing the scenario BEHIND it all. You see, in many cases ones reasons for making a choice is not the real reason. That's why it is extremely important to question every important decision you make in your life BEFORE you make it, and critically evaluate it from every angle possible.
God did not create man in his own image, Man did create God in his own image.
Gwandau
"Absolutely not,"
I absolutely do! Ill tell ya, just like I posted in my last post, I was raised baptist and didnt get it till my late 30s. And the way I found it was that I searched for it at that time. And boy did I get it!!! Big changes that I could hardly believe myself as it goes along, just like Bruce stated himself.
I said it before, and I will say it again, you will never know till you try. I tried and I received, and reeived and received. I before E, except after C. ;]
"I know exactly what kind of events and psycological background that lies behind peoples descisions to take the jump into faith.
And I don't blame them, I just feel pity for them,
since what seems to be saving them is actually imprisoning them."
And I say the same to you. ;)
"And I was not referring to your conscious reasons for your choices, I was describing the scenario BEHIND it all. You see, in many cases ones reasons for making a choice is not the real reason. That's why it is extremely important to question every important decision you make in your life BEFORE you make it, and critically evaluate it from every angle possible."
Oh I can tell you my real reason was to know. You can twist what ever you want others to think about how I went about it and why, when I never stated any of it here, yet you know. Wow, you are psychic. Amazing. ;)
"God did not create man in his own image, Man did create God in his own image."
That is your statement. Now prove it. :o Otherwise it is just an opinion, of which why should anyone take your word for it if you cannot prove it? ;) ;D
Nice try.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 20, 2012, 06:32:00 PM
Otherwise it is just an opinion, of which why should anyone take your word for it if you cannot prove it?
All you can offer is opinion, no proof. Why should your opinion be given greater credence than anyone else's.
Your opinion is that the bible is inspired by your god. My opinion is that it's just a collection of allegory.
I don't agree with your opinion, but I accept your right to express it.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 20, 2012, 06:40:20 PM
All you can offer is opinion, no proof. Why should your opinion be given greater credence than anyone else's.
Your opinion is that the bible is inspired by your god. My opinion is that it's just a collection of allegory.
I don't agree with your opinion, but I accept your right to express it.
Not really. I make statements based on my experience, experience that you do not believe.
I know many that have had the same and similar experiences. That is how we know each other.
Having similarities in these experiences brings up important questions.
Lets say for example, 4 different things that make Us feel and experience things that are mostly similar for each individual.
The feeling of Love
The feeling of anger
The feeling of being drunk
The feeling of a migraine headache.
There are cause and effect for each. Love and anger feel the way they do because of brain stimulation and chemical releases.. well you know that stuff. And drinking alcohol brings about similar feelings for most when taken to tolerance for each. And migraine are an effect of some cause, and the effects are very similar.
So what cause is it that you believe we are receiving that gives us the ability to feel and experience the things that we claim we do? Is it that we all have lead poisoning to have these effects? Too much sun? You tell me why we all feel and experience the same things that we claim is knowing God? What is the commonality that produces this effect?
Other than that you are probably under the impression that we are all liars? Probably, since you have not any solid proofs as to why we are the way we are. And if you do, please show them. ;)
Mags
Gwandau You touch on things I have touched on. but don't expect an honest and straightforward answer. They cannot give it.
Quite simply believers don't have an answer but they must continue to believe. This is part of being a believer.
I have spoken about the Evil God before. You can only expect non answers. I have given up on reading responses as they are little more than the same mantra.
"You cant understand unless you have faith"
What they fail to recognise is I once had faith so I do understand. I found religion wanting. It works first by isolating its followers from the rest of the world. For example "the brethren". Then it creates an "us and them" sense of fear. Jews, Muslims, Christians all do this. Then they say do not listen to those who are intellectual because they will sway you from the truth.
It is cultism refined.
So you will never get a straight answer. They don't know. They cannot answer because knowledge is foreign to them.
Some of the questions I have proposed and gone unanswered
1/ Why did 1/3rd of all angels leave heaven to join Lucifer in hell? Was god so bad that they had to be apart from him? The angels knew God directly therefore they know he is pure love, indefeatable but they chose hell instead so perhaps the pure love was not so pure?
2/ The old testament was written by the Jews supposedly by the hand of God. why then do the Jews reject the new testament. surely they know the work of gods hand.
3/ Why is God so mean. Take lots wife, her mistake was to look over her shoulder to the city where her daughters were being murdered by her husbands god. So she was murdered as well.
4/ Why did god wait 3,000 years before sending salvation in the form of Jesus. Why did he allow man to go for so long under the old rule.
5/ Why does god change rules. Perfection does not change cannot change.
6/ Muslims Jews and Christians all follow the same God. yet their beliefs are so different. At most only one can be right. Which is it?
This barely scratches the surface of the inconsistencies of their God.
"For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son"
So God as Jesus comes to earth. He lives here for 33 years and dies on the Cross. Yes it was a terrible death. BUT NO WORSE than many others. Surely Jesus was looking forward to going back to himself as a full being not this castrated version as a human. yet he uttered the words "Why have you forsaken me". Forsaken means turned away from, ignored.
Is it possible the Jews are correct? the new testament is not the word of God, just a story about the prophet Jesus? Because that's exactly how it reads. This shows that of the three Christianity is the most wrong. It can be ruled out as the correct faith.
There are so many unanswered questions but don't expect an answer from beleivers. They aren't found within religion only outside of it.
Bruce Tito and even Chet all have the same response. They attempt to be smug and contemptuous, they use christian methods to try and belittle you not realising those methods only work on christian.
I had high hopes of Mags. He does fight on further than the others. But when confronted he chooses to 'misread' what you write and cower under the same blanket "you must have faith, you must have faith" a little chant they are taught endlessly to keep them from asking hard questions.
In the end I believe most believers are not as far up the evolutionary tree. They are a little closer than the rest of us to our monkey past. Perhaps they have a big dose of VMAT2.
If true it is the ultimate in natures jokes on Christians. a Gene that makes people believe in god.
Talking of jokes take a look at this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOZIjWJpiBk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOZIjWJpiBk)
CC
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 20, 2012, 09:38:01 PM
I had high hopes of Mags. He does fight on further than the others. But when confronted he chooses to 'misread' what you write and cower under the same blanket "you must have faith, you must have faith" a little chant they are taught endlessly to keep them from asking hard questions.
High hopes of what exactly? You ask for proof. We tell you how to do it. You refuse to try. How else can I help you sir? More coffee? Cream?
Yet you never tell us if you tried. So dont tell us that we 'only' say that you must have faith. Ive said it several times like above. Here it is again...You ask for proof. We tell you how to do it. You refuse to try. Dont twist it again because of your short comings and failure to try.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 20, 2012, 07:07:26 PM
Other than that you are probably under the impression that we are all liars? Probably, since you have not any solid proofs as to why we are the way we are. And if you do, please show them.
Never once have I intimated that faithers are liars. Never once have I attempted to offer proof to the unprovable. When it comes to matters spiritual, you either believe something or you don't, have faith or do not. I accept you believe in your god and that you have faith in your god, however, you seem unable to accept that I don't believe in, or have faith in your god, and have no need for a god-centric faith or purpose in life.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 20, 2012, 10:01:54 PM
High hopes of what exactly? You ask for proof. We tell you how to do it. You refuse to try. How else can I help you sir? More coffee? Cream?
Yet you never tell us if you tried. So dont tell us that we 'only' say that you must have faith. Ive said it several times like above. Here it is again...You ask for proof. We tell you how to do it. You refuse to try. Dont twist it again because of your short comings and failure to try.
Magzimus Leviticus
I do not recall you telling me "how" to prove anything. I have had a quick recap of the last few pages and nothing I can see.
Sorry for my 'blindness" can you point me to the post again so I can ponder your advice. (my high hopes, you would make a real attempt and not cower under "You must have faith").
While you are pondering the things I wrote in the last post (instead of resolutely ignoring them as you accuse me of doing), can I ask you a question?
What do you think of street corner bible bashers. Happy to hear from Tito and Bruce on this, Chet too if he is still following the convo.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 20, 2012, 07:07:26 PM
I make statements based on my experience, experience that you do not believe.
snip..
I do not disbelieve that you've had your 'experience/s'.
I simply don't attribute them to a god, whilst you do.
I've had many 'experiences' throughout my life too, that have been similar to those of others.
Why shouldn't these experiences be common? We all share the same genes and we're all mentally 'wired' similarly.
And from time to time our 'wiring' goes haywire, in similar ways. There's nothing surprising about similarity or commonality of experience.
I will ask a question of the believers. In light of your all powerful and benevolent god, that you apparently feel walking with you all the time, and who is always present, please ask him to explain why he allowed the following:
(1) the Holocaust (act of man)
(2) the Indonesia tsunami of 2004 (act of god)
Question 1: free will.
question 2: we all create it.
And god (what i would call- all that is) is not a man only, its everything that has existed/exist and will ever exist.
Beliving that all that is, is a man only, is beliving in a very small god.
Its not about trowing religion on fire and forget about it, its about expanding it, it has to evolve like everything alse.
Beliving in nothing- is a belive to, its the belive that after death we do not exist.
It goes like this: Becouse i dint exist before birth, my logic tells me that i will not exist after either.
They have never tought of what about if i forgot that i existed before my birth.
Tommy
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 21, 2012, 11:52:50 AM
I will ask a question of the believers. In light of your all powerful and benevolent god, that you apparently feel walking with you all the time, and who is always present, please ask him to explain why he allowed the following:
(1) the Holocaust (act of man)
(2) the Indonesia tsunami of 2004 (act of god)
People pay for what they have done in their past life and previous births.
Suppose if a noted dictator who caused unlimited sufferings for the people, takes birth as begger in his next birth and comes to your house for begging and if you know who he was in his previous birth, will you show mercy on him?
All the people whether good or bad have to die one day or the other but if good people die, they will go to heaven, bad people will go to hell.
QuoteQuestion 1: free will.
question 2: we all create it.
Interesting proposal. For what it's worth, my comments:
Actually, we all
possess free will. If you believe in God, there is only one Creator, who gives humanity free will to possess and exercise. A Christian, Muslim or Jew believes that man and woman were created in the divine image and likeness. Part of the divine image is to be able to act in freedom, without compulsion by outside influences. Being of the divine likeness means that love guides our exercise of freedom - always acting for the greatest good, as a reflection of our human nature as made in the divine image.
QuoteAnd god (what i would call- all that is) is not a man only, its everything that has existed/exist and will ever exist.
Tommy, my friend, I would add a slight nuance to your comment above - God is in all things, but all things have their own being and essence. God simply is each thing's ongoing Sustainer in being. A Hasidic Jew might say in this regard that if God were to forget about any one of us, we would disappear. Similarly, if God were to forget about any one thing, it would disappear. This is a way of saying that the all things are sustained in their individual being by their divine creator. Therefore, we can contemplate the Divine Sustainer in each individual thing, or in all things. I can see where you might mean that God is in all things, and that by contemplating all things, one can recognize the Divine Presence. But the gift of free will is exactly that - a gift. This means that each person has their own will to exercise in freedom. My will is not the divine will, and I am not God. However, I believe that my deepest self is sustained by God, the Divine Sustainer and Creator. I can seek to conform my will to God's, and ask that it be transformed by divine grace to conform with the free will of God. However, I have my own free will, given by God, that finds its full realization in pursuing the greatest good, after the divine image and likeness.
QuoteBeliving that all that is, is a man only, is beliving in a very small god.
Absolutely. This might mean for some that our self-realization is to develop as the Neitzchean superman, taking what we want to become the superman or superwoman we wish to become. For others, it might simply mean that life is absurd, and without meaning. Others might see meaning as something completely relative to the individual - no overarching human moral values or code. Some might be comfortable without a God, but where do they get their ultimate meaning? Because every time we settle on one thing for meaning, there is something that is greater - in other words, the search for meaning is endless and infinite. This is because the human mind and heart were made for the Infinite, and can only truly rest in the infinite. And ultimately, this is a leap of faith into the unknown.
QuoteIts not about trowing religion on fire and forget about it, its about expanding it, it has to evolve like everything alse.
Yes, religion's purpose is not to control or limit people. Rather, religion is at the service of faith. So yes, in a certain sense, religion has to grow to help address the needs of believers in each age. I don't know if I'd use the word "evolve" (though I respect your right to choose this term); I think I would use the word "develop." This implies that the essence of a particular religion remains the same, while it grows to become more fully what it was meant to be, in guiding believers toward their God.
QuoteBeliving in nothing- is a belive to, its the belive that after death we do not exist. It goes like this: Becouse i dint exist before birth, my logic tells me that i will not exist after either. They have never tought of what about if i forgot that i existed before my birth.
Yes, there are many who profess to believe in nothing. Actually, belief in God is a belief in no-thing. God is not limited by time or space or thought. God is beyond "thing-ness." But I digress. I know what you mean, I think. Again, you raise an interesting point about logic - it hits a kind of brick wall, and to get past this wall, one needs the gift of faith, which is free for the asking. It would seem to me that herein lies the crux of this thread. Reason invariably hits a brick wall, and requires faith to help it embrace the "idea" of God.
I enjoyed your post, Tommy.
Bob
Tommy
Quote from: Newton II on October 21, 2012, 08:40:52 PM
People pay for what they have done in their past life and previous births.
Suppose if a noted dictator who caused unlimited sufferings for the people, takes birth as begger in his next birth and comes to your house for begging and if you know who he was in his previous birth, will you show mercy on him?
All the people whether good or bad have to die one day or the other but if good people die, they will go to heaven, bad people will go to hell.
So the 6 million Jews all did bad things in past lives to deserve being first herded into ghettos, then terrorized and then exterminated? Or was this just an opportunity that god chose to let the Nazis exercise their free will?
If free will is so key, why even bother praying? Anything you pray for is bound to encroach on the free will of somebody, or just plain fly in the face of the divine plan of letting millions of us die horrible deaths.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 21, 2012, 11:56:15 PM
So the 6 million Jews all did bad things in past lives to deserve being first herded into ghettos, then terrorized and then exterminated? Or was this just an opportunity that god chose to let the Nazis exercise their free will?
If free will is so key, why even bother praying? Anything you pray for is bound to encroach on the free will of somebody, or just plain fly in the face of the divine plan of letting millions of us die horrible deaths.
This is only my opinion and others have said I am wrong. but if you ask me Free Will and Miracles (from prayers or any other source) are mutually exclusive.
Free will in the bible context means the right to choose good or evil, right and wrong. Rather than whether to turn left or go straight.
Therefore free will dictates you should not be influenced by the existence or non existence of God. Because if you know God exists and that he will punish you for choosing the wrong thing, then that is at the very least a dilution of free will.
Therefore Miracles can't exist in a bible oriented universe as it is unequivocal proof of GOD. But the bible says you only need the faith of a mustard seed to move a mountain (perform a miracle).
Therefore the bible disappears in a puff of paradoxical smoke!
QED
CC
p.s. I wonder how many mountains our local faithers have moved mountains? Outside of those involved in construction of course.
How-to explain your Almighty for
Tsunami
Earthquakes
The book of Job
Etc.
If HE is omnipotent, has he that bad character, to even allow this ??
If you don’t want to blame him, accept that he is not alone to decide.
Peter
Free will or free willy? :P
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/free-will-is-an-illusion_b_1562533.html
Free will.........
Perhaps the need to be "born again" opens A door [unlocks that "lock"} ?
Perhaps Evolution can be even More spontaneous than epigenetics has learned thus far?
Perhaps our DNA holds Keys we are only just starting to understand?
@Toad
You hurt my brain with that stuff!! [that link].
We learn more and more all the time these days,faster and faster we go..
"Round and round she goes ...Where she stops nobody knows".
One thing is for sure IMO we have a destination..........
But thats just my opinion !
Thx
Chet
PS
Chris, didn't you know...there not miracles !
All things are possible Only believe.......
Have'nt quite gotten there yet myself,!
If I did Wilby would be putting the motor in my Wifes car instead of Me !:,}
Now things at last are getting into good vibrations in this thread. :) :) :)
Even if it seems that most of the input here is deviating from the scientifically provable point of view in favour for ones personal views and thus deviates from the orginal aim of this thread, I must say that all your input right now is highly interesting and depicts presently a quite wide span of intriguing alternatives.
To me it seems that this topic has reached a more healthy temperature, allowing for a decent exchange of thoughts with mutual respect shown. It also shows it is actually possible to respect different views of reality without having to share them.
My personal experience of reality is that universe is not physical in the sense we have been taught since childhood by a object oriented society.
In the frontiers of quantum science today, matter seems to lose its traditional qualities of being inert driftwood in a linear universe, and scientists are starting to refer to matter as nodes of interference in a incredously intricate and complicated wave system rather than physical particles in the traditional sense.
This indicates that reality is not as physical as we thought it to be, and taking a step further the modern quantum perspective leads us into the interpretation of reality conceived by for example Tibetan mystics who for thousand of years have emphasized that our universe is projected forth at a vibrational speed of some 60 thousand trillion HZ. Their conclusion is based upon repeated similar observations made in deep meditative studies of vibrational levels of consciousness reverbrating a kind of resonating echo from the Source projection speed.
This would indicate that reality is a projection of sorts, executed on a scale beyond our human comprehension. And if universe is a projection, there must be a projector.
Such a projection would equal an Intent behind it.
Still, this does not indicate a man oriented god in the traditional sense that we have been conditioned to believe in since childhood.
Instead, such an Intent would be an all pervasive quality of our reality that would make every single atom unique and "alive", and our concept of "dead matter" would dissolve into a greater scheme of an all permeating consciousness.
It is intriguing how close this leads us to the concept of an omni present consciousness without falling into the trap of a personal man oriented god.
It is also interesting to note how such an outlook on reality allow us to be spiritual beings without the stigma and perversion of dogmatic religions like for example Christanity.
So this is how I experience universe, as a non physical spiritual being logged into in a universe without a traditional god but still being a creative part of an indifferent omnipresent Intent.
In this configuration, the dynamics of being spiritual "merely" indicates that our consciousness is temporarily logged into the matrix of a projected universe, and that we are just as intricately subjected to natural laws beyond our physical bodies as we are subjected to the dynamics of the physical world.
All this fully possible without the need of a man oriented god, which as a result for the traditional believers unfortunately makes their communication with their god into a communication with their inner being, which however rewarding and enrichening, still "only" resembles a local individual phenomenon.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on October 22, 2012, 05:01:03 PM
My personal experience of reality is that universe is not physical in the sense we have been taught since childhood by a object oriented society.
So this is how I experience universe, as a non physical spritual being logged into in a universe without a traditional god but still being part of an indifferent omnipresent Intent behind it all.
Gwandau
But why do you think your consciousness/spirit (however you want to name it) can persist outside your physical brain? There is zero evidence for this.
Because it may not be the brain who creates your consciousness.
Maybe it is your consciousness who creates your physical experience of reality.
There is really no hardcore proof in any direction.
Only indications.
Gwandau
According to the Tibetan mystics,
consciousness represents a higher energy level than our physical reality.
Thus the so called physical world is a secondary effect and projected forth by consciousness.
This is fully possible, since it is very easy to misread an effect for a cause, if the
cause is not directly observable.
Remember that we are conditioned to experience reality the way we do since childhood,
and we all take a lot of things for granted.
My personal standpoint is quite open minded, I have not invested anything definite in any direction.
Gwandau
Quote from: ramset on October 22, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
snip...
IMO we have a destination..........
But thats just my opinion !
snip...
Your opinion is as valid and important as anyone else's.
Cheers
Quote from: Gwandau on October 22, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
Because it may not be the brain who creates your consciousness.
Maybe it is your consciousness who creates your physical experience of reality.
There is really no hardcore proof in any direction.
Only indications.
Gwandau
This is theoretically possible, to the extent that anything is remotely possible. But why do you think this is the case? We have an idea of what thought and consciousness is within the physical brain (we know about neurons, we see and understand how certain drugs and chemicals can modify consciousness, we see thought impacted when certain parts of the brain are damaged, etc.), but there is no evidence at all to suggest of any consciousness outside the brain.
Is it something that you are just wishing was true, as it makes life after death a tenable position, or did you have some kind of experiences to suggest this?
eatenbyagrue,
Yes, I have had personal so called out of body experiences that have made me aware of things beyond our physical world, but I am fully aware that these experiences are just personal experiences and of course as such have no validity in a scientific approach. Still these experiences have changed my outlook on things quite a bit
.
As a result I have devoted a lot of time since then in the study of the interface domain between the observer and the observed, and done some extensive experiments with Lucid dreaming techniques as well as explorations of the unconsciousness through the use of mind expanding drugs and other techniques well known in the shamanic tradition.
The frame of reference contained by the normal level of consciousness is nothing but the tip of the iceberg, and our experience of physical reality is the result of a social and cultural conditioning that is filtering away the major part of perception possible for man. Normal consciousness of today is assembled at a very narrow point on the avaible bandwidth of human consciousness, making it almost impossible to introduce the information accessible beyond the accepted frames of reference.
I can only tell you what I have seen, and the words you will hear are bound to be filtered through your mental firewall of preconceptions attained during your life. But I can tell you about a place beyond this world were newly dead people arrive every second without knowing that they are dead, being in a state of mind quite similar to when you dream without knowing that you dream. I can tell you that this strange place is real for me, and that you may experience it yourself if you devote enough time in so called Lucid Dreaming or other advanced shamanic techniques, or you just may have to wait until you die.
But as I say, these are just my words and since it still is not possible to record ones experiences and compare these with similar experiences of others, or proving this domain to be an actual domain by recording meetings with other participants there, these words of mine will carry little weight.
But still they are the very reason for me to suggest what I have described above as the framework of a spiritual alternative to the guilt ridden dogmatics of the Christian mythology.´
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on October 22, 2012, 06:48:38 PM
eatenbyagrue,
Yes, I have had personal so called out of body experiences that have made me aware of things beyond our physical world, but I am fully aware that these experiences are just personal experiences and of course as such have no validity in a scientific approach. Still these experiences have changed my outlook on things quite a bit
.
As a result I have devoted a lot of time since then in the study of the interface domain between the observer and the observed, and done some extensive experiments with Lucid dreaming techniques as well as explorations of the unconsciousness through the use of mind expanding drugs and other techniques well known in the shamanic tradition.
The frame of reference contained by the normal level of consciousness is nothing but the tip of the iceberg, and our experience of physical reality is the result of a social and cultural conditioning that is filtering away the major part of perception possible for man. Normal consciousness of today is assembled at a very narrow point on the avaible bandwidth of human consciousness, making it almost impossible to introduce the information accessible beyond the accepted frames of reference.
I can only tell you what I have seen, and the words you will hear are bound to be filtered through your mental firewall of preconceptions attained during your life. But I can tell you about a place beyond this world were newly dead people arrive every second without knowing that they are dead, being in a state of mind quite similar to when you dream without knowing that you dream. I can tell you that this strange place is real for me, and that you may experience it yourself if you devote enough time in so called Lucid Dreaming or other advanced shamanic techniques, or you just may have to wait until you die.
But as I say, these are just my words and since it still is not possible to record ones experiences and compare these with similar experiences of others, or proving this domain to be an actual domain by recording meetings with other participants there, these words of mine will carry little weight.
But still they are the very reason for me to suggest what I have described above as the framework of a spiritual alternative to the guilt ridden dogmatics of the Christian mythology.´
Gwandau
I commend you on your experimentation. What I would suggest is that you try to bridge the gap between personal and something that can be proven. At least then you will know you are not merely hallucinating or are just in some kind of trance, feeling out of body, but in fact firmly in body.
What you may want to do is hide a playing card, something like that, in a place that is hidden, and where you do not know which card it is. If you can travel out of body and identify things you cannot possibly learn any other way, then you know you are onto something.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 22, 2012, 08:10:51 PM
I commend you on your experimentation. What I would suggest is that you try to bridge the gap between personal and something that can be proven. At least then you will know you are not merely hallucinating or are just in some kind of trance, feeling out of body, but in fact firmly in body.
What you may want to do is hide a playing card, something like that, in a place that is hidden, and where you do not know which card it is. If you can travel out of body and identify things you cannot possibly learn any other way, then you know you are onto something.
When I was in high school, a friend and I experimented with lucid dreaming and astral projection, and came up with a 40 percent positive strike rate. Not conclusive, even statistically speaking, but the times that we were right, actually frightened us a little bit.
On agreed nights we would set in place, on our drawer tops, an object or picture or written note intended for the other to view during lucid dreaming. The following morning we would write down what we had seen, then share the results.
We did this every mon, tues and wednesday for 3 months. It was spooky to get such a high hit rate, and at age 14, we decided we were out of our depth and stopped. LOL
At my current age, what scares me more, is not being able to remember what I looked at right in front of me and only a few minutes ago, and also while fully awake ! LOL
Gwandau
Buddy You got Brass Balls.........
I respect your Courage ,And I know this is possible [intuitively].
Its Just from My perspective, I'll be a long time dead ,why go hang out there
any sooner than requiered?
Others here have spoken of these "trips" ,usually they Meet some "others".
{nefarious types IMO].
You meet that lady yet?[the kissy huggy one].
@Toad
Our minds get cluttered and screwy sometimes,finding a path to peace
with a "good" purpose,
Works wonders..........
But once again thats just my opinion [and experience].
On the path and paying attention.........
Chet
PS
@Chris
I had written a nice responce to you but the forum murdered it.
[perhaps for the better]
Later..........
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 22, 2012, 08:10:51 PM
I commend you on your experimentation. What I would suggest is that you try to bridge the gap between personal and something that can be proven. At least then you will know you are not merely hallucinating or are just in some kind of trance, feeling out of body, but in fact firmly in body.
What you may want to do is hide a playing card, something like that, in a place that is hidden, and where you do not know which card it is. If you can travel out of body and identify things you cannot possibly learn any other way, then you know you are onto something.
eatenbyagrue,
thanks for your open minded response to something that would make a warning bell ring for most people.
My out of body experiences are few and randomly appearing, but Lucid dreaming is something that I am getting more and more familiar with, and there is certain shaman techniques coupled to Lucid dreaming that will indeed induce out of body experiences(OBE). These techniques is my goal to perfect, since they are enabling exactly what you were suggesting when you mentioned the possibility to "bridge" between the out of body state and the physical reality around us. This technique is actually called what you named it: "To Bridge".
When fully mastering the induction of the OBE state the shamanic disciple takes his first step in the art of making a Bridge by moving his Dreambody(called astral body in modern terms) to the place were he is laying asleep. Here his first challenge is to avoid the strong surge of slipping back into the sleeping body in front of him since this would immediately arouse him from sleep.
Next step is to identify the autencity of the body in the bed being the real physical body. This check point is prepared by another disciple who have placed something specific for that occasion by the sleeping disciples bed, like a newspaper dated same day. Thereafter the disciple will leave the room and his sleeping body and move (preferrably fly) outside the house in a direction that will lead him to a place in the forest where he never has been before. Now his task is to look for something small, like for example a oddly shaped piece of rock in the surrounding that catches his attention.
Then he is to remember exactly were this item is laying by remembering certain distinctive features in the surrounding that will help him relocate the item later. The final step in this first "kindergarten level" of the shamanic OBE practice is to wake up in his bed and walk to the place and relocate the item that he found in his OBE. By bringing this item home and place it on his altar, the disciple has done his first shamanic tampering with reality, thus doing exactly what you suggested, eatenbyagrue, creating a bridge between the reality of the dream and the reality of the so called physical world.
The art of creating a Bridge is an almost lost art in the shamanic tradition and only a few inofficial groups within the North American Twisted Hair Medicine Tribe still know the keys to the deeper levels of creating a Bridge. With the risk of boring you, I will here give you a taste of the depth and complicity of this art by describing how the old Toltecs employed Bridge creation in instant travel all over the planet long before the white man even knew about the exitence of the Toltecs.
What I am about to tell you here is something one should only practice when fully controlling every part of the technique, and I am sure most of you that read this will shake his/her head, and that’s just as it should be, since this is knowledge only for those dedicated beyond normal levels. The technique presented here will additionally need such a enormous amount of focus and energy that only a person with such levels of Intent will be able to perform this. I may also add, that in contrast to almost any other lucid dreaming activity, this one involves real danger, meaning a kind of danger that even surpasses the danger of death. Read this just for entertainment, if you prefer, it is of course up to you how to take this other worldy information., I just felt I wanted to share this many thousand year old Toltec shamanic knowledge.
Fasten your seatbelts and join me on this strange ride:
There is an old technique said to be performed frequently by the Toltecs, using this specific route through dream within a lucid dream and thus become lucid in a layer of consciousness below the first layer of lucid dreaming. The trick is to train yourself to lie down with every limb of you body in an exact position that you easily can recall, when going to sleep. Every joint, from your big limbs down to every joint of your fingers has to be positioned in a way that you can remember exactly.
The Toltecs for some reason preferred lying on their left side. Now, when getting lucid in you first layer dream, you have to reposition yourself into the exact same position as your body had as falling asleep in your normal reality. If you manage to fall asleep in this position within the dream, and then succeed to get fully lucid in next dream layer, your physical body will according to the Toltecs snap out of your physical world and get locked into your first layer of dream.
The Toltecs say this is because your dream body, or astral body, are primary to your physical body, not the other way around as we western people think. Thus the physical body is inferior and closely dependent upon the energy level of the dream body, always situated one single level away from the dreambody. The state of lucid dreaming always engage the dreambody, if moving into deeper levels of dreaming in a lucid state, the dreambody follows. The Toltecs knew that your higher energy body, your dreambody, is the very body that will remain when you die, and this knowledge was used by the Toltecs in many sophisticated ways.
They used this specific method to move the physical body over great distances without the aid of physical transport systems. To re-enter normal reality at the point of arrival, you have to go there with your dreambody and identify the place as being a true part of normal reality. This techique is achieved thorugh years of training to move around with the dreambody in the normal reality, starting with the point of departure in normal reality where your body is lying asleep.
At the chosen point of arrival the Toltec placed his dreambody on the ground in the exact trained position and woke up into the first layer of lucid dreaming. Now his body was lying asleep on the spot of arrival. From here he just woke up and re-entered the physical world. But years before doing the big “jumpsâ€, the diciple had to perfect his re-entry training by re-entering at dedicated spots nearby his sleeping body. This is but one of the old and almost forgotten arts of the Toltecs, which where shamans of an unparallelled magnitude in human history, who knew more about our reality than we ever can imagine.
Lucid dreaming hides a lot more secrets than our contemporary western knowledge can even fathom, being portals into realms far beyond our wildest dreams it openly threatens the stability of the contemporary scentific fundament.
Personally I believe Lucid dreaming is an unparallelled opportunity for mankind to evolve into a deeper understanding of the dynamics of our reality.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 23, 2012, 02:59:20 AM
When I was in high school, a friend and I experimented with lucid dreaming and astral projection, and came up with a 40 percent positive strike rate. Not conclusive, even statistically speaking, but the times that we were right, actually frightened us a little bit.
On agreed nights we would set in place, on our drawer tops, an object or picture or written note intended for the other to view during lucid dreaming. The following morning we would write down what we had seen, then share the results.
We did this every mon, tues and wednesday for 3 months. It was spooky to get such a high hit rate, and at age 14, we decided we were out of our depth and stopped. LOL
At my current age, what scares me more, is not being able to remember what I looked at right in front of me and only a few minutes ago, and also while fully awake ! LOL
hoptoad,
A wonderful adventure you had there! And very intriguing experiments performed by kids. A pity it wasn't to much literature about it then that could help you understand that Lucid dreaming is harmless and good for your overall wellbeing . In my case when being at that age I was totally alone in having Lucid dreaming experiences and it scared me as much as it fascinated me. Today the Internet is crowded with Lucid dreaming sites and there is a great variety of literature about it.
Quote from: ramset on October 23, 2012, 09:18:34 AM
Gwandau
Buddy You got Brass Balls.........
I respect your Courage ,And I know this is possible [intuitively].
Its Just from My perspective, I'll be a long time dead ,why go hang out there
any sooner than requiered?
Others here have spoken of these "trips" ,usually they Meet some "others".
{nefarious types IMO].
You meet that lady yet?[the kissy huggy one].
Ramset,
thanks for your kind answer and good humor. Yes, like most Lucid dreamers I of course have met "that lady" you mention, but one thing you soon find out is that she stands in the way for any prolonged stays in this strange realm, since by geeting exited, you will lose concentration and quite shortly therafter you will wake up.
To be able to stay awake within a dream for a longer period, you have to be quite cool and detached, and by attaining this mental poker face you will be able to experience great adventures, including meetings with spiritual guides and beings from other dimensions. Waking up from such an experience is much more rewarding than a short meeting with "the lady".
It is actually not courage that makes me do this kind of research, it is pure childish curiosity. I have always been interested in the white spots on the map and there is soo much still to discover and that's one of the reasons I am here meeting you guys at the OU forum, getting new ideas and trying to observe things from new angles.
I am totally convinced that if you have a dream, and you pour all your intent into that dream, you will inevitably sooner or later stumble onto something great. That's how things have worked for me, at least.
The day we finally have managed to decode the interface signals of our senses we will for the first time in human history be able to record and document our explorations into the mystery of consciousness.
When that happens, a scientifically founded understanding of our consciousness and everything that appears within us will be accessible, from the dynamics of thoughts to the inner voices that guides the religious person.
Gwandau
Quote from: hoptoad on October 22, 2012, 04:27:08 AM
Free will or free willy? :P
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/free-will-is-an-illusion_b_1562533.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/free-will-is-an-illusion_b_1562533.html)
@hoptoad, thanks for the link. In short, the article suggests that the so-called "free will" is not exactly as free as we think, coz it's influenced by some factors we are not - or at least till most recent times - we were not aware of. Of course, it's a huge blow against the notion of sin and thus against at least some religions.
edit
About lucid dreaming; I also experienced that in the past. First it was absolutely involuntarily and I was really scared of, since my whole body was in complete "paralyzed" state. Later I've learned that brain works somewhat differently while in it: you see through your shut eyes and you are unable to move any part of your body. Later I was able to induce this using some techniques, but I never got OBE.
Quote from: Gwandau on October 23, 2012, 05:32:34 PM
Fasten your seatbelts and join me on this strange ride:
Gwandau
I had tried OBE by a Hindu technique called 'Shavasana' in yoga. This is a simple technque of controlling you breath, slowing down your metabolic activities and freezing your body and awaken your spirit. I tried this almost for 2 years and felt that 'something' in my body is trying to separate from the body and this 'thing' has got the independent existence. May be that 'thing' is spirit. I experienced OBE 2-3 times but during OBE, the mind goes into spirit and body lies as if it is a total waste.
Here are few interesting links about this technique:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavasana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga-nidra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra
Quote from: Newton II on October 23, 2012, 08:48:18 PM
May be that 'thing' is spirit. I experienced OBE 2-3 times but during OBE, the mind goes into spirit and body lies as if it is a total waste.
Maybe that thing is spirit. In my case I've never experienced OBE, just lucid dream. When I woke up immediately after that, the picture I saw during that dream lacked some accuracy comparing that real one: i.e. in my dream I missed street lights' shadow seen in the real picture. Clearly, my 'spirit' lacks accuracy.
Here is a link about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream
You all really crack me up!
Talk about the height of hypocrisy...!!!
You all share some weird occultic "experiences" (satanic counterfeit of the real!) and that is just fine. That's okay. But we faithers share OUR expeirences, and we are "halucinating", "self deceived" ad. nausua.
YOU are the ones not open to truth! You have your own minds made up and you CHOOSE to believe a lie rather than the truth! Ha!
It is written long ago of you....
Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 09:26:47 AM
You all really crack me up!
Talk about the height of hypocrisy...!!!
You all share some weird occultic "experiences" (satanic counterfeit of the real!) and that is just fine. That's okay. But we faithers share OUR expeirences, and we are "halucinating", "self deceived" ad. nausua.
YOU are the ones not open to truth! You have your own minds made up and you CHOOSE to believe a lie rather than the truth! Ha!
It is written long ago of you....
Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The difference that escapes you is these guys are actually experimenting and attempting to validate their out of body experiences in a demonstrable way. You seem to have no intention of validating your Jesus hypothesis beyond quoting the bible, which is evidence why? Because it says it is true?
I tell you what, you ask your inner voice to predict a card flip or a dice roll, something like this. When you can establish accuracy beyond pure chance, we will be happy to listen about your Jesus.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 09:26:47 AM
You all really crack me up!
Talk about the height of hypocrisy...!!!
You all share some weird occultic "experiences" (satanic counterfeit of the real!) and that is just fine. That's okay. But we faithers share OUR expeirences, and we are "halucinating", "self deceived" ad. nausua.
YOU are the ones not open to truth! You have your own minds made up and you CHOOSE to believe a lie rather than the truth! Ha!
oh the irony!!! ::)
shut up you delusional godbot. you're not going to convince anyone here of your imaginary friend by quoting some asinine book of fairytales... except other godtards and weak minded people. stick with indoctrinating your children in ignorance, we will need shelf stockers.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 24, 2012, 01:36:47 PM
The difference that escapes you is these guys are actually experimenting and attempting to validate their out of body experiences in a demonstrable way. You seem to have no intention of validating your Jesus hypothesis beyond quoting the bible, which is evidence why? Because it says it is true?
I tell you what, you ask your inner voice to predict a card flip or a dice roll, something like this. When you can establish accuracy beyond pure chance, we will be happy to listen about your Jesus.
The results ARE the validation! We have told all of you time and time again, that the results of this faith is a changed LIFE and Heart!! But you all refuse to hear. The Spirit of God has predicted all that has happened, is happening and will yet to happen. But you ignore the validation.
When you all see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory, riding upon a white horse, having a sash draped around him that says KING OF kings and LORD of Lords, THEN you will believe but it will be too late for you all.
BUT there is HOPE! I ONCE was YOU. Ha! You want validation.... If you only knew. PRAY ALOUD, CRY OUT TO JESUS, "JESUS, SHOW YOURSELF REAL TO ME, THAT I MIGHT BELIEVE.'
You will be surprised at the results! ;) :) :D
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 03:00:06 PM
The results ARE the validation! We have told all of you time and time again, that the results of this faith is a changed LIFE and Heart!! But you all refuse to hear. The Spirit of God has predicted all that has happened, is happening and will yet to happen. But you ignore the validation.
When you all see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory, riding upon a white horse, having a sash draped around him that says KING OF kings and LORD of Lords, THEN you will believe but it will be too late for you all.
BUT there is HOPE! I ONCE was YOU. Ha! You want validation.... If you only knew. PRAY ALOUD, CRY OUT TO JESUS, "JESUS, SHOW YOURSELF REAL TO ME, THAT I MIGHT BELIEVE.'
You will be surprised at the results! ;) :) :D
bruce the gawdtroll regurgitates again... ::)
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 03:00:06 PM
The results ARE the validation! We have told all of you time and time again, that the results of this faith is a changed LIFE and Heart!! But you all refuse to hear. The Spirit of God has predicted all that has happened, is happening and will yet to happen. But you ignore the validation.
When you all see Jesus coming in the clouds of glory, riding upon a white horse, having a sash draped around him that says KING OF kings and LORD of Lords, THEN you will believe but it will be too late for you all.
BUT there is HOPE! I ONCE was YOU. Ha! You want validation.... If you only knew. PRAY ALOUD, CRY OUT TO JESUS, "JESUS, SHOW YOURSELF REAL TO ME, THAT I MIGHT BELIEVE.'
You will be surprised at the results! ;) :) :D
I said the magic words and nothing happened.
Please explain how you distinguish between the follwing two scenarios:
1. There is no Jesus, but you believe in him and turn your life around by doing things you think Jesus would approve of.
2. There is a Jesus, and you believe in him, and you turn your life around by doing things he might approve of. You suspect, but cannot demonstrate to anyone, that it was Jesus that did this, and not you.
Is there a difference, and how would you go about demonstrating this? Because right now I am assuming (1), as per Occam's Razor, as it does not require the fantastic to be true.
Quote from: Qwert on October 23, 2012, 07:26:00 PM
About lucid dreaming; I also experienced that in the past. First it was absolutely involuntarily and I was really scared of, since my whole body was in complete "paralyzed" state. Later I've learned that brain works somewhat differently while in it: you see through your shut eyes and you are unable to move any part of your body. Later I was able to induce this using some techniques, but I never got OBE.
Qwert,
it's really intriguing to see how many of us that are familiar with lucid dreaming. Personally I believe the apparent increase the last ten years of such abilities to be a sign of a long needed paradigm change affecting the way we experience reality.
Quote from: Qwert on October 23, 2012, 10:25:05 PM
Maybe that thing is spirit. In my case I've never experienced OBE, just lucid dream. When I woke up immediately after that, the picture I saw during that dream lacked some accuracy comparing that real one: i.e. in my dream I missed street lights' shadow seen in the real picture. Clearly, my 'spirit' lacks accuracy.
Here is a link about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream)
Sleep paralysis, as it is generally called, is actually a possible way to induce OBE. There is one site in particular that contain some quite interesting information about Sleep paralysis and how to transform this stage into Lucid dreaming as well as OBE.
http://dreamstudies.org/category/working-with-dreams/nightmares/sleep-paralysis-nightmares-working-with-dreams/ (http://dreamstudies.org/category/working-with-dreams/nightmares/sleep-paralysis-nightmares-working-with-dreams/)
You will know when you are logged in to the normal reality seen from your dreaming position, everything will look exactly as it should, and you will be subjected to a very strong pull towards your sleeping body when you se it laying there in the bed. It is here that the ability to stay detached will pay off.
If you experience your waking surroundings to be somewhat altered , such as you mentioned, you are still situated inside the "dream factory" of you mind trying to create a simulacrum of your normal vicinity.
Quote from: Newton II on October 23, 2012, 08:48:18 PM
I had tried OBE by a Hindu technique called 'Shavasana' in yoga. This is a simple technque of controlling you breath, slowing down your metabolic activities and freezing your body and awaken your spirit. I tried this almost for 2 years and felt that 'something' in my body is trying to separate from the body and this 'thing' has got the independent existence. May be that 'thing' is spirit. I experienced OBE 2-3 times but during OBE, the mind goes into spirit and body lies as if it is a total waste.
Here are few interesting links about this technique:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavasana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavasana)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga-nidra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga-nidra)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakra)
Newton II,
Thanks for the links. The Asian Indian yogis probably were the first people exploring Lucid dreaming, since the yogi discipline possess the oldest known scriptures referring to such techiques.
Yoga-nidra seems to be closely related to some dream techniques practiced during the initial stages of falling asleep, where the focus is to watch the process of falling asleep in a detached mode of deep inwardly oriented consciousness. Most people are totally unaware of this stage of falling asleep which harbours great moments of strong transition experiences filled with colorful visions, and if you are in a egoless and detached mode at this stage of falling asleep you will have the great opportunity to experience the actual transition from being awake to suddenly being in a Lucid dream.
This method, when mastered, is the most preferable way to enter Lucid dreaming, since you will be able to enter Lucid dreaming at any time you want.
Gwandau
Bruce_TPU,
look at yourself, so full of self rigtheousness, anger and smirk.
Were is the blessing of being a child of your god?
When you appear in this thread, the whole atmosphere changes into something aggressive and foul.
Is this what your god teaches you?
Then take a look at us.
We are humbly discussing the phenomenon of Lucid dreaming,
and we have lots of questions regarding our experiences,
in most cases we resemble the minds of curious children, open minded and receptive,
just like your god tells you to be.
Are we full of self rigtheousness, anger and smirk?
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Gwandau
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 01:49:07 PM
oh the irony!!! ::)
shut up you delusional godbot. you're not going to convince anyone here of your imaginary friend by quoting some asinine book of fairytales... except other godtards and weak minded people. stick with indoctrinating your children in ignorance, we will need shelf stockers.
Shut Up? You shut up. ;D And your posts are just what 'children' need to hear. ::) ;)
Hows the "There Are No Miracles" "free energy" site going Wilbert? ;) Keep up the good reputation. :P
God Bless you Wilby, and the minds of the children as you guide them on their humane path. ;)
Mazimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 03:06:30 PM
bruce the gawdtroll regurgitates again... ::)
Wilby(inebriated) is probably an expert at regurgitation kids!! Get your free back stage passes to Wilbys Regurgitation Top 10!!!
Bah, Im not gunna post your top ten here. I really dont have time to post that nonsense, even more than what exists already.
Keep up the good works Wilby. Nashing good show, just simply nashing. ;)
Lets all give a big hand to WilbyInebriated everyone. Common every one, stand up please!!
Sorry Wilby, they are just not responsive. ;)
Mazimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 07:24:00 PM
Shut Up? You shut up. ;D And your posts are just what 'children' need to hear. ::) ;)
Hows the "There Are No Miracles" "free energy" site going Wilbert? ;) Keep up the good reputation. :P
God Bless you Wilby, and the minds of the children as you guide them on their humane path. ;)
Mazimus Leviticus
shut up you delusional gawdtard... ::) and why are you making stuff up about what i am doing? lying for jesus again i imagine. god sees what you are doing magtards... and it makes jesus weep. grow the fuck up and stop inflicting your personal brand of ignorance on everyone else.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 09:31:14 PM
shut up you delusional gawdtard... ::) and why are you making stuff up about what i am doing? lying for jesus again i imagine. god sees what you are doing magtards... and it makes jesus weep. grow the fuck up and stop inflicting your personal brand of ignorance on everyone else.
Where is your precious science, reason and logic? Is that post the best you can do?
It is you who have a thread here about your new free energy site. Its not like its invisible. That would require a miracle. ;)
Your post shows all the ignorance this thread can possibly handle. ;D Just more utter nonsense.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 09:43:34 PM
Where is your precious science, reason and logic? Is that post the best you can do?
science doesn't apply to your imaginary godfairy... you have admitted this... remember? furthermore, it's asinine for you to request that i apply science to your imaginary friend as you have presented nothing for me to refute with science... the only thing you have presented is your asinine delusion which you have declared as factual by personal fiat. ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 09:43:34 PM
It is you who have a thread here about your new free energy site. Its not like its invisible. That would require a miracle. ;)
no i don't. and it's not a "free energy site" you liar.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 09:43:34 PM
Your post shows all the ignorance this thread can possibly handle. ;D Just more utter nonsense.
Magzimus Leviticus
ahhh more babble from the godtard... ::) mags... the only nonsense is you and your godtard buddies babbling about your imaginary friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 09:31:14 PM
shut up you delusional gawdtard... ::) and why are you making stuff up about what i am doing? lying for jesus again i imagine. god sees what you are doing magtards... and it makes jesus weep. grow the fuck up and stop inflicting your personal brand of ignorance on everyone else.
Making stuff up? Are you saying Im lying? ;)
Lets see
http://www.overunity.com/11296/a-social-network-for-free-energy/msg341195/#msg341195
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Gwandau on October 24, 2012, 05:02:05 PM
Bruce_TPU,
look at yourself, so full of self rigtheousness, anger and smirk.
Gwandau, self righteousness is defined as someone trusting in their OWN good deeds, ie., righteousness to enter heaven. So here you are VERY mistaken, because I have at every turn pointed you and everyone else to trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for righteousness. I said that "there is none righteous, no not one", and I have said, "that all have sinned", and I have said that the paycheck of sin is death. I have NEVER said anything about trusting in my own good deeds to enter heaven. So you are mistaken.
I have zero anger towards any of you, only towards Satan who has deceived you, but I have "frustration" towards you all because eternity is but a heartbeat away, and eternal life is offered, and you all scorn. For my life is filled with peace, righteousness (defined as rightstanding with God, through Jesus Christ his son) and joy. Joy is not based on my circumstances, but based upon WHO I know, and I am friends and I serve the Lord of Life, so yes, daily filled with His joy!! :)
Were is the blessing of being a child of your god?
When you appear in this thread, the whole atmosphere changes into something aggressive and foul.
Aggressive because the darkness hates the light, and for this purpose was the Son of God manifest, to destroy the works of the Devil. He is foul and his deception that brings the damnation of a soul is a dark thing. Only the truth can and will set you free. People don't like the truth. But the truth will bring you freedom! Jesus said, "I am the Way, THE TRUTH, and the life. No one comes unto the Father but by me." He is not one of many truths, nor is he one of many ways, but HE is Truth. I pray in the holy name of Jesus, that one day your heard and mind will be opened to his word and his voice.
Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow." I hear his voice, but once, like you all, followed the voice of the "stranger"
Is this what your god teaches you?
Then take a look at us.
We are humbly discussing the phenomenon of Lucid dreaming,
and we have lots of questions regarding our experiences,
in most cases we resemble the minds of curious children, open minded and receptive,
just like your god tells you to be.
Are we full of self rigtheousness, anger and smirk?
Humbly? Ha! hardly, while you all denigrate the truth that we have attempted to share with you. Satan has a counterfeit for every REAL thing of God, and of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
The Lord gives dreams and visions to his people. That is phenomenon, but you all dont want to hear the truth. The Lord fills with the Holy Spirit and give a BRAND NEW LANGUAGE, this is SUPERNATURAL, but you all don't want to hear the truth. I have SEEN the Lord open deaf ears! I have seen the Lord open the eyes of the blind! I have seen and have photographic evidence of the Lord healin a little girl from curvature of the Spine. I have seen on one occasion the dead raised! I have see Demons come forth from a man in supernatural ways on several occasions!
If anyone was REALLY interested in truth and finding the "Probability of God" we can assist. But we are cursed, the Lord blasphemed on a daily basis, we are spat upon in post after post, and denigrated with idiotic non sensical arguments.... but I count it ALL JOY and rejoice that we are counted worthy to suffer even these small indignations on behalf of that name of Jesus! The name above all names!!
May you find His peace, His Love and Spiritual Understanding of Christ Jesus, your only hope,
Bruce
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Gwandau
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 09:47:38 PM
Making stuff up? Are you saying Im lying? ;)
Lets see
http://www.overunity.com/11296/a-social-network-for-free-energy/msg341195/#msg341195
Magzimus Leviticus
and that's not MY thread is it?
let's see... who started it? me? no... broli did, you liar.
Ah, I see. It was for Broli. You stated that you started coding just a bit more than a year ago a couple posts from the top. Maybe if you spend less time here with what ever it is that your are saying, you might have that coding done already.
Social network for free energy? Thats a great idea!! Everyone puts up pics and info of themselves and when they post a working project, POOF, they disappear logically. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 09:48:51 PM
you have spooned against us again you filthy spooner... and as it is written, the wages of spoon is death. repent your spoons! repent! for only through the sauce of the flying spaghetti monster can you receive everlasting life and eternal salvation!
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 09:57:01 PM
Ah, I see. It was for Broli. You stated that you started coding just a bit more than a year ago a couple posts from the top. Maybe if you spend less time here with what ever it is that your are saying, you might have that coding done already.
and maybe if you didn't continually jump to asinine conclusions you wouldn't have your foot so far down your throat all the time... ::)
actually it got put off because of lack of input from the very people who wanted it built... i started back up on it again because of godtards like you infesting this site. ::) but go on with your asinine assumptions, they are oh so amusing... for a godtard.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 09:57:01 PM
Social network for free energy? Thats a great idea!! Everyone puts up pics and info of themselves and when they post a working project, POOF, they disappear logically. ;)
again... i don't care what a godtard like you thinks... mint?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 09:57:32 PM
you have spooned against us again you filthy spooner... and as it is written, the wages of spoon is death. repent your spoons! repent! for only through the sauce of the flying spaghetti monster can you receive everlasting life and eternal salvation!
lol thats just silly talk. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 09:59:49 PM
and maybe if you didn't continually jump to asinine conclusions you wouldn't have your foot so far down your throat all the time... ::)
actually it got put off because of lack of input from the very people who wanted it built... ::) but go on with your asinine assumptions, they are oh so amusing... for a godtard.
again... i don't care what a godtard like you thinks... mint?
"i don't care what a godtard like you thinks..." Think about that for, well, take your time. ;) ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 10:03:39 PM
"i don't care what a godtard like you thinks..." Think about that for, well, take your time. ;) ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
you can offer up your mea culpa for lying about me again anytime you liar... ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 10:01:12 PM
lol thats just silly talk. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
may the FSM's sauce be upon you... may pasta always cover your plate and may you someday get some meaty balls.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 10:05:23 PM
you can offer up your mea culpa for lying about me again anytime you liar... ::)
See! I knew you cared about what I say!!! ;D :-* Your the best! ;)
See, theres a few lines of code right there. ;) But its better you stay here. Wouldnt want to complete any projects or nuthin. Your making great progress here. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 10:14:41 PM
See! I knew you cared about what I say!!! ;D :-* Your the best! ;)
don't you think you should ask for forgiveness for your trespasses? or is it that you don't follow the good book like you claim to... ::) hypocrite godtard.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 10:14:41 PM
But its better you stay here.
as you wish... ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 24, 2012, 10:07:29 PM
may the FSM's sauce be upon you... may pasta always cover your plate and may you someday get some meaty balls.
I think you can make some good money if you get some of your quotes published or something. You are a master of words. Please tell us more. This is really good stuff!! ::) ;)
You must be Italiano. ;D I prefer rigatoni. One of the best jar sauces, for me at least, is Ragu extra chunky mushroom. The one in the larger plastic container, not the glass, there is a difference. Its a thick slightly sweet sauce. No meaty balls needed. Just some french bread garlic toast , a layer of parm and a 'fork'. No spoon thanks. ;) When you grow up Wilby, you can then use a fork instead. ;) For now, I dont think you should be handling sharp objects. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 10:32:43 PM
I think you can make some good money if you get some of your quotes published or something. You are a master of words. Please tell us more. This is really good stuff!! ::) ;)
You must be Italiano. ;D I prefer rigatoni. One of the best jar sauces, for me at least, is Ragu extra chunky mushroom. The one in the larger plastic container, not the glass, there is a difference. Its a thick slightly sweet sauce. No meaty balls needed. Just some french bread garlic toast , a layer of parm and a 'fork'. No spoon thanks. ;) When you grow up Wilby, you can then use a fork instead. ;) For now, I dont think you should be handling sharp objects. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
you already have the original spoon... ::) you inherited it from the original spoon committed by the archangel/pirate fusilli jerry. he was commanded to NOT eat pasta with a spoon for doing so would grant the knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong... but he disobeyed and now you are guilty of his trespass. repent your spoons! it is the only way to everlasting life and eternal salvation!
ragu is a usurper and weak copy of the ONE TRUE SAUCE... now you have committed a mortal spoon of your own. repent and ask for forgiveness!
and sorry to hear about your lack of meaty balls... but it's not like we didn't know that already... ;)
God Loves ya Wilby. See ya tomorrow. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 24, 2012, 10:58:26 PM
God Loves ya Wilby. See ya tomorrow. ;]
Magzimus Leviticus
mom called you upstairs for meatloaf?
the flying spaghetti monster loves you magstard. why do you hate her? she boiled for our spoons!
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 09:26:47 AM
You all share some weird occultic "experiences" (satanic counterfeit of the real!) and that is just fine. That's okay. But we faithers share OUR expeirences, and we are "halucinating", "self deceived" ad. nausua.
I shared my experience of lucid dreaming and you have to label it occult. Typical.
I also said the experience was inconclusive. I did not claim my experience was anything other than a child hood experiment, with a surprising number of positive outcomes. An experiment - nothing more, nothing less. No conclusions, no proselytising from the pulpit, just sharing an experience.
So will you also label as occultic, any attempts by a professional phyciatrist or psychologist to access someones unconcious or subconcious thought processes.
When you share your experiences, it is in the form of preaching that you "know" something supernatural. I freely admit that I don't "know" whether something that is only palpable as my own personal experience, is supernatural or not.
Quote from: ramset on October 22, 2012, 09:04:13 AM
Chris, didn't you know...there not miracles !
All things are possible Only believe.......
Have'nt quite gotten there yet myself,!
If I did Wilby would be putting the motor in my Wifes car instead of Me !:,}
I'll assume you are serious Chet. So you don't believe in miracles? Which puts you at odds with other beleivers. An example of the inconsistancy of belief which belies a common God.
Lucid dreaming is an artifact of sleep paralysis. It is the cause of many occult experiences, including many of my own. once I came to understand that I came to control it.
Astonishingly to me it is the cause of one common occult experience. that of being crushed by an invisible 'spirit'. An experience I was shocked to find I shared with many people and throughout history.
http://www.theheartofcompassion.com/AgelessWisdom/ScienceOfMind/SOMfrontpage.htm
Neuroscientist Sees 'Proof of Heaven'
http://gma.yahoo.com/heaven-real-saw-scientist-says-183522717--abc-news-health.html (http://gma.yahoo.com/heaven-real-saw-scientist-says-183522717--abc-news-health.html)
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 09:48:51 PM
Gwandau, self righteousness is defined as someone trusting in their OWN good deeds, ie., righteousness to enter heaven. So here you are VERY mistaken, because I have at every turn pointed you and everyone else to trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ for righteousness. I said that "there is none righteous, no not one", and I have said, "that all have sinned", and I have said that the paycheck of sin is death. I have NEVER said anything about trusting in my own good deeds to enter heaven. So you are mistaken.
Bruce_TPU,
Wow, you really don't se it, do you? That very attitude of yours soo very much reeks of self righteousness.
And don't tell me that you are a true believer, because you are not. You are showing all kinds of signs of being someone that think he actually knows. A believer does not know, that's the very definition of belief. The moment you believe that you know, you have become mentally instable.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 09:48:51 PM
Aggressive because the darkness hates the light, and for this purpose was the Son of God manifest, to destroy the works of the Devil. He is foul and his deception that brings the damnation of a soul is a dark thing. Only the truth can and will set you free. People don't like the truth. But the truth will bring you freedom! Jesus said, "I am the Way, THE TRUTH, and the life. No one comes unto the Father but by me." He is not one of many truths, nor is he one of many ways, but HE is Truth. I pray in the holy name of Jesus, that one day your heard and mind will be opened to his word and his voice.
Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow." I hear his voice, but once, like you all, followed the voice of the "stranger"
My, that is some agressive declaration. You don't see this either do you? Anyone who uncompromisingly throws a theory in your face without any verifiable proof is expressing an aggressive behaviour.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 24, 2012, 09:48:51 PM
Humbly? Ha! hardly, while you all denigrate the truth that we have attempted to share with you.
Share? ...... SHARE??? Do you call throwing fanatic statements in my face for sharing things??
Everything about you smells foul, your self righteousness, your agreesivness, your smirking attitude, you rigidity.
If I ever met you, I would certainly avoid you instantly, since your way of approaching other people stinks.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on October 25, 2012, 06:15:56 PM
Bruce_TPU,
Wow, you really don't se it, do you? That very attitude of yours soo very much reeks of self righteousness.
I explained this in my last post. Please learn the English language if you wish to debate someone in English. I have explained both what righteousness means and what self righteousness means. So, you can repeat yourself, like a child throwing a tantrum who is not getting his way, and attempt to insult, but it neither changes the TRUTH that I have written, nor the mis use of those two words. ;)
And don't tell me that you are a true believer, because you are not.
I am indeed a true believer in the risen saviour of life, the Lord Jesus Christ. Goodness, this indeed is obvious to the readers! :D
You are showing all kinds of signs of being someone that think he actually knows. A believer does not know, that's the very definition of belief. The moment you believe that you know, you have become mentally instable.
Wow, not wanting to insult your capacity for thought and reason, but this has got to be the strangest three comments I have ever read, strung together. First, off, I actually DO KNOW, because I KNOW the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, it is true, I have met him and walked with him, the Father, and been filled with His Holy Spirit for over 30 years now. I understand that you all can't fathom that, and have no spiritual understanding of what in the world I am saying, but please try.
A believer in Christ, by the very definition is someone who knows that he knows. You see, we believers in Christ, know that we know that we know that we have eternal life and will enter to heaven. We know that we have been delivered from death, hell and the grave. And you see, if a "so called" believer is not sure, then THEY are nor really a believer! So yes, you have that one directly reversed. :)
Mentally unstable eh? LOL another insult from my "humble" friend. Jesus either really IS who he says he IS, or he is a liar. I have found out that he really IS who he says he IS. I want the readers, even if just one, to see and allow the Lord, by his Spirit to give to them understanding.
My, that is some agressive declaration. You don't see this either do you? Anyone who uncompromisingly throws a theory in your face without any verifiable proof is expressing an aggressive behaviour.
In your mind it is "theory" because you have allowed a blinder both over your heart and mind. It is not theory, and I have given so much verifiable (to me) proof but you and some others refuse to believe. Either the things I have told you are in deed TRUE, or I am also a liar. You and every reader must decide that for yourself! BUT, if TRUE, then you and they are faced with the gravest of decisions in your life. For now that you have heard the Good News of Jesus Christ, you are responsable. To receive it, or to reject it. There is NO middle ground. And eternity is based on that decision.
Share? ...... SHARE??? Do you call throwing fanatic statements in my face for sharing things??
Fanatic eh? Really? Hmm.... if you had told the people of two centuries ago that we would have landed on the moon, or flown through the sky or any other of the so called wonders of our modern age, they would call you fanatic. When the worst parts of the Bible, the prophecies in the book of Revelations are taking place on this planet, in your lifetime, the followers of AntiChrist will call on the believers of that time, to have their heads cut off, if they do not receive the mark, the number or the name of the beast. Would you be one of those? So let me ask you... who are the REAL fanatics, eh?
Everything about you smells foul, your self righteousness, your agreesivness, your smirking attitude, you rigidity.
If I ever met you, I would certainly avoid you instantly, since your way of approaching other people stinks.
In this setting, you may not like it, and I don't bloviate, pander, nor am I politically correct. I am straightforward and truthful. Even when the hearers are not interested in hearing the truth. Some do NOT like this, any more than they did in the times of Jesus. But some, they allow the TRUTH to set them free!! And it is those I seek to reach. "All those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution". Amen and so be it.
Walking with Christ,
Bruce
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 25, 2012, 08:23:17 PM
Please learn the English language if you wish to debate someone in English.
you should take your own advice godtard... ::)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self-righteous
self-right·eous
â€, â€,/ËŒsÉ›lfˈraɪtʃəs, ˈsÉ›lf-/ Show Spelled[self-rahy-chuhs, self-] Show IPA
adjective
confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.THAT describes you to a T bruce... you self-righteous prick.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 26, 2012, 01:27:29 AM
you should take your own advice godtard... ::)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self-righteous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self-righteous)
self-right·eous
â€, â€,/ËŒsÉ›lfˈraɪtʃəs, ˈsÉ›lf-/ Show Spelled[self-rahy-chuhs, self-] Show IPA
adjective
confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others.
THAT describes you to a T bruce... you self-righteous prick.
"
confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others."
Yep, you describe yourself perfectly Wilbert. ;) Hypocrite anyone? ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on October 26, 2012, 01:46:13 AM
"confident of one's own righteousness, especially when smugly moralistic and intolerant of the opinions and behavior of others."
Yep, you describe yourself perfectly Wilbert. ;) Hypocrite anyone? ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
i know you are but what am i? ::) grow the fuck up godtard...
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 25, 2012, 08:23:17 PM
You are showing all kinds of signs of being someone that think he actually knows. A believer does not know, that's the very definition of belief. The moment you believe that you know, you have become mentally instable.
Wow, not wanting to insult your capacity for thought and reason, but this has got to be the strangest three comments I have ever read, strung together. First, off, I actually DO KNOW, because I KNOW the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, it is true, I have met him and walked with him, the Father, and been filled with His Holy Spirit for over 30 years now. I understand that you all can't fathom that, and have no spiritual understanding of what in the world I am saying, but please try.
A believer in Christ, by the very definition is someone who knows that he knows. You see, we believers in Christ, know that we know that we know that we have eternal life and will enter to heaven. We know that we have been delivered from death, hell and the grave. And you see, if a "so called" believer is not sure, then THEY are nor really a believer! So yes, you have that one directly reversed. (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Mentally unstable eh? LOL another insult from my "humble" friend. Jesus either really IS who he says he IS, or he is a liar. I have found out that he really IS who he says he IS. I want the readers, even if just one, to see and allow the Lord, by his Spirit to give to them understanding.
Bruce, in your zeal, you are missing Gwandau's point. You are going on faith that the Bible is true and that voice inside your head is Jesus and not just you talking to yourself and deluding yourself in this way.
Your faith is a personal choice, but you should not mistake it for knowledge, i.e. true belief. Belief is not a choice. You cannot choose to believe - you are either persuaded by the evidence or you are not. The moment you do choose to be persuaded by weak evidence, you do cross the line into mental instability. You have basically been brainwashed by your religious social circle into believing that what you are experiencing is Jesus.
But the next time you talk to Jesus, do ask him why he is OK with slavery, why he sent the Tsunami to kill 100K plus Indonesians, and why he was too busy to stop the Nazis from killing 6 million plus Jews.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 25, 2012, 08:23:17 PM
I am also a liar.
finally some ACTUAL truth from brucetard...
OMG, A religion topic on a science forum, OK, fine.
BTW, no need to be a believer (even if i'm one) to see that the whole human civilization is going to the toilet: immorality, decadence, war, violence, economic collapse, materialism, hedonism, look like a good doomsday scenario, it's obvious that we are going to the wall at 100 mph, believer or not...
Look like the Sodome and Gomorrah, Babylon scenario, you can add the fall of the Roman Empire with their sexual decadence and their fiat money: the gold coin was melted with other metals in order to "create" more money with the same amount of gold, until nobody worked with Roman coins. (Yeah some kind of FED existed 2000 years ago LOL) .
Do the same comparison with the US dollar and our modern civilization...
QuoteThose who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it
That just what I see...
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 26, 2012, 07:45:25 AM
Bruce, in your zeal, you are missing Gwandau's point. You are going on faith that the Bible is true and that voice inside your head is Jesus and not just you talking to yourself and deluding yourself in this way.
Your faith is a personal choice, but you should not mistake it for knowledge, i.e. true belief. Belief is not a choice. You cannot choose to believe - you are either persuaded by the evidence or you are not. The moment you do choose to be persuaded by weak evidence, you do cross the line into mental instability. You have basically been brainwashed by your religious social circle into believing that what you are experiencing is Jesus.
I totally disagree with this argument. Faith is a choice. Belief, which is faith is also a choice. If I say that I am a male, you have a choice, to believe me or not. You may see some things in how I write or in my name that would help you make up your mind. Faith is a choice. And when I first heard the Good News of Jesus Christ, I mixed that hearing with faith/belief, and AFTER I did that, I had the experience. The worldy and unbelieving, want the EXPERIENCE first, and THEN they will believe. Sorry, but this is NOT how the Kingdom of God works! It is reversed. Faith FIRST and THEN experience. But the experience is JUST as valid! This is why we believers get so tickled when you all try to say it is just in our head, etc,. add nausua! LOL Because our EXPERIENCE is more than real. But only came after we first had faith!
But the next time you talk to Jesus, do ask him why he is OK with slavery, why he sent the Tsunami to kill 100K plus Indonesians, and why he was too busy to stop the Nazis from killing 6 million plus Jews.
God is NOT okay with ANY of the evil that exists on this planet, nor with the destruction of human life. Satan is the god of this world, until which time Jesus establishes HIS kindom. His Kingdom comes, THEN his will will be done. This is why in Matthew 6, we are instructed to pray the Lord's prayer. "...Thy Kingdom come (his Kindom is only in the hearts of His people at present, but one day soon will be a PHYSICAL Kingdom on this earth.) thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. (His will IS done in Heaven, but on earth, at present, His will is NOT done.)"
This earth is cursed with a curse, since the fall of man, with original sin, in the Garden of Eden. BUT the dominions of this world, the Kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdoms of our God and of his Christ, and He shall reign over them forever and ever. So be it!
Mankind is wicked and perverse, and will continue to slaughter his fellow man. This is the result of sin and evil rooted in every heart of man. These things you have listed are but the BEGINNING of sorrows, for what is coming upon this earth. For there is a 7 year period of tribulation coming to this earth the such as man has never seen and that you could scarce imagine. And if the Lord had not shortened those day to just seven years, there would be NO flesh saved! No, NOW is the time to repent! Today is the day of salvation. Do not neglect so great a salvation as what he now offers!
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 26, 2012, 11:26:46 AM
God is NOT okay with ANY of the evil that exists on this planet, nor with the destruction of human life.
Ah, but God is OK with slavery. The Old Testament, in Deuteronomy, Exodus, Leviticus, is full of talk about it. It is OK to own slaves, as long as you do not beat them too severely, and so forth. Even teh 10th commandment makes a reference to slaves (not coveting thy neighbor's).
And in the New Testament, Jesus says many times that the Old Testament needs to be honored. For example, John 10:35 - "The Scripture cannot be set aside". In Matthew 5:18 - "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
So Jesus must be OK with slavery.
And even in the New Testament, our holy text, in Paul's Letter to Philemon, Paul returns the slave Onesimus to Philemon. Paul makes no attempt to free the slave, but keeps the status quo.
So again, please, next time you speak with Jesus, ask him why he is OK with slavery.
Quote from: SchubertReijiMaigo on October 26, 2012, 10:02:28 AM
OMG, A religion topic on a science forum, OK, fine.
BTW, no need to be a believer (even if i'm one) to see that the whole human civilization is going to the toilet: immorality, decadence, war, violence, economic collapse, materialism, hedonism, look like a good doomsday scenario, it's obvious that we are going to the wall at 100 mph, believer or not...
Look like the Sodome and Gomorrah, Babylon scenario, you can add the fall of the Roman Empire with their sexual decadence and their fiat money: the gold coin was melted with other metals in order to "create" more money with the same amount of gold, until nobody worked with Roman coins. (Yeah some kind of FED existed 2000 years ago LOL) .
Do the same comparison with the US dollar and our modern civilization...
That just what I see...
Your first mistake is thinking this forum is about science. It is clearly not. at best you might describe it as fringe science. but you need to be a little deluded to think even that. this forum is about people getting together to discuss the impossible. individual reasons for being here are large and vary from true believers in the impossible to curious observers.
The second mistake and this is a huge one is saying society is getting worse. Yes there are shitty and worrying things, but at no point in human history has that been any different. Society as a whole is actually better now than just a few years ago. you are using your experience and the words of others to form that opinion.
But a thinker realises that time dulls the past and makes the current seem more intense and therefore for some 'worse'. I even fell victim to that a few pages back but chastised myself for the mistake.
Yes society goes through cycles but your judgment is wrong, it is based on flawed and misguided thinking. I can think of many large scale things that are better now than just a few years ago.
CC
P.S. if we could get rid of Religion society would be much better off. just 'imagine'
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 26, 2012, 06:38:44 PM
this forum is about people getting together to discuss the impossible.
You are mistaken. This forum is gathering of people who believe that
'IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING'Quote from: CuriousChris on October 26, 2012, 06:38:44 PM
P.S. if we could get rid of Religion society would be much better off. just 'imagine'
I agree. If we get rid of all cranky religions and accept the existance of one absolute God, things will be much better off.
Quote from: Newton II on October 26, 2012, 09:23:58 PM
I agree. If we get rid of all cranky religions and accept the existance of one absolute God, things will be much better off.
i agree... all hail mighty ZEUS!
The most dangerous religious notion - faith without understanding: "if you cannot understand, just believe". It's the same reasoning that rules armies: blind obedience; blindly obedient crowd will follow any crazy authority or authority poseur and in such case ending result is always disastrous no matter if it's an army of disciplined soldiers or army of any other "followers".
what i find deliciously amusing is that bruce, chet, mags and the other godtards actually think they are going to heaven... ::) they aren't. as it is written, gawd hates liars...
they've been lying to their kids about birthdays and santa claus for years. which, as it is written, is punishable by death! for the wage of SIN!!!
the filthiest sinners are the most evangelical. christian projection at its best. ::)
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 26, 2012, 06:38:44 PM
Your first mistake is thinking this forum is about science. It is clearly not. at best you might describe it as fringe science. but you need to be a little deluded to think even that. this forum is about people getting together to discuss the impossible. individual reasons for being here are large and vary from true believers in the impossible to curious observers.
The second mistake and this is a huge one is saying society is getting worse. Yes there are shitty and worrying things, but at no point in human history has that been any different. Society as a whole is actually better now than just a few years ago. you are using your experience and the words of others to form that opinion.
But a thinker realises that time dulls the past and makes the current seem more intense and therefore for some 'worse'. I even fell victim to that a few pages back but chastised myself for the mistake.
Yes society goes through cycles but your judgment is wrong, it is based on flawed and misguided thinking. I can think of many large scale things that are better now than just a few years ago.
CC
P.S. if we could get rid of Religion society would be much better off. just 'imagine'
and your first mistake is thinking that 'better' isn't subjective.
your second mistake is thinking your idea of 'better' is universal. your idea of 'better' is probably not my idea of 'better'... ::)
a thinker realizes that subjective words like 'better' and 'worse' are just that... subjective.
your judgment is wrong. it is based on a flawed assumption.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 26, 2012, 10:21:51 PM
i agree... all hail mighty ZEUS!
Oh oh, don't offend the Almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster! :P , the sauce of all being. Your pasta may go dry!
Quote from: hoptoad on October 27, 2012, 12:25:39 AM
Oh oh, don't offend the Almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster! :P , the sauce of all being. Your pasta may go dry!
the creation and subsequent defiling of gods is an ancient human tradition. the FSM shall not be excepted. ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 27, 2012, 12:35:38 AM
the creation and subsequent defiling of gods is an ancient human tradition. the FSM shall not be excepted. ;)
OMAFSM ! :o
Quote from: Newton II on October 26, 2012, 09:23:58 PM
You are mistaken. This forum is gathering of people who believe that 'IMPOSSIBLE IS NOTHING'
I agree. If we get rid of all cranky religions and accept the existance of one absolute God, things will be much better off.
Huh
So on the one hand we should not believe the proven facts before us. OU so far has been proven impossible. And is in fact illogical (jim)
On the other hand we must accept the unproven and unbelievable and only your version of it. eschewing all other versions.
Hmm don't see anything wrong with your "smug" logic do we?
edit: added "smug" as it seemed to be the case
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 26, 2012, 11:35:03 PM
and your first mistake is thinking that 'better' isn't subjective.
your second mistake is thinking your idea of 'better' is universal. your idea of 'better' is probably not my idea of 'better'... ::)
a thinker realizes that subjective words like 'better' and 'worse' are just that... subjective.
your judgment is wrong. it is based on a flawed assumption.
Well I agree. and in reality that is exactly what I said.
The perception that things are better or worse is just that perception. A christians perception is the world is more evil.
My perception is in many ways the world is far better. Berlin wall, greater tolerance (overall)
This brings me to one of my favourite sayings...
"There is no such thing as truth. Only perception".As can be witnessed in this thread a lot of people claim to know the truth. Yet others claim they are wrong. that is because the two differeing opinions are really just the way each person perceives the world.
I must say your overly abusive and aggressive posts do not help the subject one iota.
That's my perception of the truth.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 27, 2012, 01:02:20 AM
I must say your overly abusive and aggressive posts do not help the subject one iota.
ohhh don't be such a prima donna... ::) all i have done is mirror the godbots' arrogant and pretentious attitude back to them. ::)
" and your first mistake is thinking that 'better' isn't subjective.
your second mistake is thinking your idea of 'better' is universal. your idea of 'better' is probably not my idea of 'better'...
a thinker realizes that subjective words like 'better' and 'worse' are just that... subjective.
your judgment is wrong. it is based on a flawed assumption. "
Oh Yeah, you 're just plain right ::) everything is working well :o even the US who it's on the verge of collapse, that's so good my friend 8) :P ...
For the science stuff, I agree that the forum is not so science, the scientific method is not well followed.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 27, 2012, 01:02:20 AM
snip...
"There is no such thing as truth. Only perception".
Thats a statement I perceive to be true.!
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 27, 2012, 12:53:12 AM
OU so far has been proven impossible. And is in fact illogical (jim)
What do you mean by 'OU has been proven impossible'? Inability is different from impossibilty. Wait till somebody builds a OU device. The device may come through this forum itself.
Quote from: Newton II on October 27, 2012, 11:34:31 PM
What do you mean by 'OU has been proven impossible'? Inability is different from impossibilty. Wait till somebody builds a OU device. The device may come through this forum itself.
Do you understand the scientific method?
Go here and read up on it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method Pay particular attention to the prediction section.
For OU to be possible it would mean that the conservation of energy law is wrong.
Do you know why its considered a law? not a theory like say the theory of relativity or string theory? its not because of some arbitrary decision in some smoke filled men's science club. its because it has never failed a test. and most importantly it is used too predict the outcome of other experiments.
For example if you had an experiment and of the possible outcomes only 3 could occur without breaking the conservation of energy law. One of those is the most likely outcome. If there is another outcome it is ALWAYS one that does not violate the conservation of energy law, and was simply not considered before. This law is used and by definition tested daily in a thousand physic experiments around the world.
Now lets look at OU itself. People have been trying for at least 300 Years. NOT ONE HAS SUCCEEDED. Not once ever. Of course many have claimed to have succeeded but not one has proven it.
So when you get to heaven ask "Your God" why he didn't break one of his laws to make you happy?
Of course if you descend to hell for believing you can break Gods laws don't forget to ask Lucifer. What pissed him and the 1/3 of the angels off so much that they decided hell was a better place. Perhaps it was because they wanted to break the conservation of energy law?
http://intouch.org/broadcast/video-archives/content?topic=victim_or_victor_video#.UI3l-m8xp-I
I think this video is appropriate here, please listened, cause faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God.
hope it may help ;)
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 28, 2012, 12:54:19 AM
Do you understand the scientific method?
For OU to be possible it would mean that the conservation of energy law is wrong.
Do you know why its considered a law? not a theory like say the theory of relativity or string theory? its not because of some arbitrary decision in some smoke filled men's science club. its because it has never failed a test. and most importantly it is used too predict the outcome of other experiments.
For example if you had an experiment and of the possible outcomes only 3 could occur without breaking the conservation of energy law. One of those is the most likely outcome. If there is another outcome it is ALWAYS one that does not violate the conservation of energy law, and was simply not considered before. This law is used and by definition tested daily in a thousand physic experiments around the world.
Now lets look at OU itself. People have been trying for at least 300 Years. NOT ONE HAS SUCCEEDED. Not once ever. Of course many have claimed to have succeeded but not one has proven it.
So when you get to heaven ask "Your God" why he didn't break one of his laws to make you happy?
Of course if you descend to hell for believing you can break Gods laws don't forget to ask Lucifer. What pissed him and the 1/3 of the angels off so much that they decided hell was a better place. Perhaps it was because they wanted to break the conservation of energy law?
Scientific method is just patching up work. Whenever a new invention is made sceintists create theories to explain the observed phenomenon. If some new phenomena are observed in the same invention, scientists again amend the theories with new patches to explain them. We cannot take it as a rule that things which scientists cannot acheive and cannot explain donot
exist at all.
Law of conservation is accepted because scientists have sofar failed to build a OU device. Even if scientists build it, the respective Governments will not allow them to reveal it because it will cause an unrepairable economic loss to the entire world since the economy of entire world has moved too far in a wrong direction with oil based industries. ( automobile, transportation etc.).
If somebody builds o OU device and pushes it through, immediately scientists will come up with new patching up theories to explain it.
GOD does not want OU to be achieved by humans because it may mark the beginning of the end. Once you create energy you can magnify it to infinity in stages. You know that energy can be constructive as well as destructive. If OU device is invented and somebody finds a method to magnify its output to infinity and such a technology goes into the hands of terrorists, then this earth will not be there in the solar system.
A simple example is, make one megawatt perpetual DC generator and drop it deep into the sea. It goes on releasing hydrogen into the atmosphere by electrolysis and after sometimes when it catches fire it chars all the life on this earth to death.
Its funny how the disbelievers argue amongst themselves. Yet Bruce , Tito and I have no issues between each other.
Im just sitting back and observing them disagree with one another.
Interesting isnt it?
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 27, 2012, 01:02:20 AM
"There is no such thing as truth. Only perception".
Then there is no such thing as lies also? fools
That is what you think? Your life must be in shambles.
And I suppose your 'perception' is 'correct' compared to others here. And Wilby thinks he is correct, and so on....
Meanwhile, our perception is the same, Bruce, Tito and I.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 28, 2012, 12:54:19 AM
For OU to be possible it would mean that the conservation of energy law is wrong.
CuriousChris,
You deductions are correct if the concept of Over Unity is taken literally.
But OU is impossible only when taken literally, and I think many people here at the forum are regarding this concept from an angle more related to the possibility of harnessing hitherto unknown dynamics than to the precise definition.
Of course you cannot for example squeeze more electricity out of a system than it's available, but who are you or I to actually know the complete avilability of the dynamics behind the electromagnetical field?
Frontier research have found indications of a vast presence of virtual electrons oscillating in and out of observable reality, and I recall a recently published paper were two scientists actually did manage to capture such virtual electrons and making them real.
And we have the amazing fluid state of helium in zero kelvin degrees, indicating an underlying omnipresent energy.
So if a device seems to generate more output than is put into it, this only would indicate the access and involvement of energy sources hitherto unknown, amplified by a novel configuration of known and unknown parameters.
It would only look like the theoretical defintion of OU until we see the whole picture, and the moment we grasp the dynamics, it would seamlessly fit into the termodynamic laws.
Personally I have taken for granted that the titel of this forum has been strictly decorative, indicating the intriguing possibility of making new novel discoveries.
Quote from: Newton II on October 28, 2012, 10:19:19 AM
If OU device is invented and somebody finds a method to magnify its output to infinity.....
A simple example is, make one megawatt perpetual DC generator and drop it deep into the sea. It goes on releasing hydrogen into the atmosphere by electrolysis and after sometimes when it catches fire it chars all the life on this earth to death.
Newton II,
As I mentioned above, as far as I am concerned, the OU concept is not to be taken literally, it is rather a symbolic expression of harnessing hitherto unknown dynamics, thus making the conclusion of infinite acceleration of no value.
For example succeeding in creating a vector differential in a permanent magnet motor would not make it magnify its output to infinity, it would be just as bound to limitations as the electrically induced magnet motor. So you really don't need to believe in OU to create a non electrical permanent magnet motor, you "just" have to crack the vector balance of the field potentional affecting the magnets.
@all believers
Those of you in this forum who actually believe in Over Unity per definition are no better than any other believer, religious or non religious.
Gwandau
;)
Quote from: Newton II on October 28, 2012, 10:19:19 AM
Law of conservation is accepted because scientists have sofar failed to build a OU device. Even if scientists build it, the respective Governments will not allow them to reveal it because it will cause an unrepairable economic loss to the entire world since the economy of entire world has moved too far in a wrong direction with oil based industries. ( automobile, transportation etc.).
I do not think you understand quite how things work. We accept the law of conservation of energy because it has always held up. Every effect and action we have ever observed has followed it.
When you talk about building an OU device, you must understand that there must first be an observable OU effect which the device is to exploit. We have not seen one, so we cannot even begin to plan the building of such a device.
That is how the scientific method works. It starts with observation. In the case of OU, we lack even that first step.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 28, 2012, 01:26:59 PM
Then there is no such thing as lies also? fools
snip...
Actually,
a lie is spread or told with deceptive intent. A person may tell you something which they believe to be true, but which everyone else accepts as being untrue. That person then, is a (perceived) purveyor of an untruth, but not a liar, because, to be a liar, means that you
deliberately tell an untruth as opposed to merely disseminating an untruth, whilst believing it to be truth.
Which is why, although I do not consider you to be a liar, I do consider you to be a purveyor of untruth, since you insist on spreading many of the (perceived) untruths of the bible as if they were universally accepted truths, and which you believe to be true.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 28, 2012, 11:05:04 PM
Actually, a lie is spread or told with deceptive intent. A person may tell you something which they believe to be true, but which everyone else accepts as being untrue. That person then, is a (perceived) purveyor of an untruth, but not a liar, because, to be a liar, means that you deliberately tell an untruth as opposed to merely disseminating an untruth, whilst believing it to be truth.
Which is why, although I do not consider you to be a liar, I do consider you to be a purveyor of untruth, since you insist on spreading many of the (perceived) untruths of the bible as if they were universally accepted truths, and which you believe to be true.
I have conversations with friends about God, some believers some not. Once I find that the non believers just dont get it nor want to, I dont go any further, unless they bring it up.
My ex room mate, he died in his room from heart failure 2 weeks before Christmas. We would get into it. One thing he would always resort to was, "how do you know we werent brought here by aliens?" I would say, ok, show me something, anything, that supports that idea. But he never gave me a shred. Not one shred. It stopped there for him every time.
Wasnt ever like what we have going on here.
Whats funny is he had this idea of aliens, and them bringing us here. That would suggest he believes in something he cannot and has not seen, yet the idea of God is not as interesting. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 28, 2012, 11:28:05 PM
snip...
Whats funny is he had this idea of aliens, and them bringing us here.
snip...
Maybe they couldn't stand us anymore! So they shipped us all here and then dumped us.
They may even have left a message. "Don't call us(4), we'll call you(2). " :P
Quote from: Magluvin on October 28, 2012, 01:26:59 PM
Then there is no such thing as lies also? fools
That is what you think? Your life must be in shambles.
And I suppose your 'perception' is 'correct' compared to others here. And Wilby thinks he is correct, and so on....
Meanwhile, our perception is the same, Bruce, Tito and I.
Magzimus Leviticus
Why would my life be in a shambles, because I don't believe what you 'perceive' to be true is actually true?
That is rather a long bow to draw and has no basis in knowledge of any kind. so your perception is flawed. probably in some vain attempt to try and say I cant be happy because I am not christian. Its a simple, transparent, deliberate and deceptive ploy to use.
There are those things that are universally perceived to be constant (true) but perhaps when revealed may not be so simple an example of that would be gravity. We all perceive it the same that doesn't mean we have it right. One school of thought is that gravity is not actually pulling us down but is actually the result of the earth expanding at 9.8ms^2
I think it is a stupid statement and quite untrue. but believers in that theory would argue my perception is wrong.
Many here argue my perception of OU which discounts it ever being possible is wrong. Perhaps it is. but I have been shown nothing by anyone to prove otherwise and until I do I will maintain that perception.
You are lying when you say your (Bruce, Tito and I) perceptions are the same. you have a common belief, but I'll bet they vary. Perhaps not much but I bet they will vary. So your perceptions of the truth will actually be different. Therefore just perceptions. You also deliberately left out others whose perceptions are similar but perhaps even less aligned. How long did you ponder before leaving out say, Chet? There is differing beliefs in all differing denominations. Are you going to tell me you are 100% in accord with Jews and with Muslims. Surely you must be. I mean you all believe in the same God.
What I just wrote above is yet another comment you will fail to respond to of the dozens you and your ilk have failed to comment on. Due to the very simple fact (perception) you cannot. At least not without deliberately deceiving (yet another perception of mine).
I don't consider my perception more correct than others but will always challenge people to back up their perceptions with more than "you must have faith" its the catch cry of the faithers here and only because they have nothing else, without that cry they are moribund.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 29, 2012, 07:46:15 AM
Why would my life be in a shambles, because I don't believe what you 'perceive' to be true is actually true?
That is rather a long bow to draw and has no basis in knowledge of any kind. so your perception is flawed. probably in some vain attempt to try and say I cant be happy because I am not christian. Its a simple, transparent, deliberate and deceptive ploy to use.
There are those things that are universally perceived to be constant (true) but perhaps when revealed may not be so simple an example of that would be gravity. We all perceive it the same that doesn't mean we have it right. One school of thought is that gravity is not actually pulling us down but is actually the result of the earth expanding at 9.8ms^2
I think it is a stupid statement and quite untrue. but believers in that theory would argue my perception is wrong.
Many here argue my perception of OU which discounts it ever being possible is wrong. Perhaps it is. but I have been shown nothing by anyone to prove otherwise and until I do I will maintain that perception.
You are lying when you say your (Bruce, Tito and I) perceptions are the same. you have a common belief, but I'll bet they vary. Perhaps not much but I bet they will vary. So your perceptions of the truth will actually be different. Therefore just perceptions. You also deliberately left out others whose perceptions are similar but perhaps even less aligned. How long did you ponder before leaving out say, Chet? There is differing beliefs in all differing denominations. Are you going to tell me you are 100% in accord with Jews and with Muslims. Surely you must be. I mean you all believe in the same God.
What I just wrote above is yet another comment you will fail to respond to of the dozens you and your ilk have failed to comment on. Due to the very simple fact (perception) you cannot. At least not without deliberately deceiving (yet another perception of mine).
I don't consider my perception more correct than others but will always challenge people to back up their perceptions with more than "you must have faith" its the catch cry of the faithers here and only because they have nothing else, without that cry they are moribund.
That is why we are NOT to follow the perceptions of man! For they lead to falsehood, and false religions. God does not have a "perception", but he IS Truth. Not the "perception" of truth, but the "essence" of Truth. Your argument is accurate from the "perspective" of sinful man.
God tell us what his "Truth" is, that we are ALL wrongdoers, in need of saving. That we are ALL lost in need of Salvation. That we are ALL without hope and without God. That there is ONE answer to this malady, and that is the remedy of salvation in and through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You can explain your "perception" to the Father, as your excuse for rejecting so great a salvation. Let me know how that goes for you......
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 29, 2012, 11:35:58 AM
That is why we are NOT to follow the perceptions of man! For they lead to falsehood, and false religions. God does not have a "perception", but he IS Truth. Not the "perception" of truth, but the "essence" of Truth. Your argument is accurate from the "perspective" of sinful man.
God tell us what his "Truth" is, that we are ALL wrongdoers, in need of saving. That we are ALL lost in need of Salvation. That we are ALL without hope and without God. That there is ONE answer to this malady, and that is the remedy of salvation in and through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You can explain your "perception" to the Father, as your excuse for rejecting so great a salvation. Let me know how that goes for you......
What you say would be worrisome for us atheists if there was a grain of evidence for it. Thankfully there is not.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 29, 2012, 02:32:50 AM
Maybe they couldn't stand us anymore! So they shipped us all here and then dumped us.
They may even have left a message. "Don't call us(4), we'll call you(2). " :P
Yeah yeah, I know. Its always 'maybe'. Maybe this and maybe that. :P ;D
Mags
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 29, 2012, 07:46:15 AM
Why would my life be in a shambles, because I don't believe what you 'perceive' to be true is actually true?
That is rather a long bow to draw and has no basis in knowledge of any kind. so your perception is flawed. probably in some vain attempt to try and say I cant be happy because I am not christian. Its a simple, transparent, deliberate and deceptive ploy to use.
There are those things that are universally perceived to be constant (true) but perhaps when revealed may not be so simple an example of that would be gravity. We all perceive it the same that doesn't mean we have it right. One school of thought is that gravity is not actually pulling us down but is actually the result of the earth expanding at 9.8ms^2
I think it is a stupid statement and quite untrue. but believers in that theory would argue my perception is wrong.
Many here argue my perception of OU which discounts it ever being possible is wrong. Perhaps it is. but I have been shown nothing by anyone to prove otherwise and until I do I will maintain that perception.
You are lying when you say your (Bruce, Tito and I) perceptions are the same. you have a common belief, but I'll bet they vary. Perhaps not much but I bet they will vary. So your perceptions of the truth will actually be different. Therefore just perceptions. You also deliberately left out others whose perceptions are similar but perhaps even less aligned. How long did you ponder before leaving out say, Chet? There is differing beliefs in all differing denominations. Are you going to tell me you are 100% in accord with Jews and with Muslims. Surely you must be. I mean you all believe in the same God.
What I just wrote above is yet another comment you will fail to respond to of the dozens you and your ilk have failed to comment on. Due to the very simple fact (perception) you cannot. At least not without deliberately deceiving (yet another perception of mine).
I don't consider my perception more correct than others but will always challenge people to back up their perceptions with more than "you must have faith" its the catch cry of the faithers here and only because they have nothing else, without that cry they are moribund.
"probably in some vain attempt to try and say I cant be happy because I am not christian."
Well to you, happiness is just a matter of perception, right? ;)
"There are those things that are universally perceived to be constant (true) but perhaps when revealed may not be so simple an example of that would be gravity."
So why is it so hard for you to believe that your perceptions are constant when it comes to God!! You make it sound like gravity is 'the' most mysterious thing. Yet you seem to have God all figured out. Come on man, think. ;)
"I think it is a stupid statement and quite untrue. but believers in that theory would argue my perception is wrong."
And you guys argue that our perception is wrong. Soo, were even? ;D
"Many here argue my perception of OU which discounts it ever being possible is wrong. Perhaps it is. but I have been shown nothing by anyone to prove otherwise and until I do I will maintain that perception."
Thats a good point. There are also those such as you that discount us. I dont know if the balance is 'even' there. I guess there are differences in people. Some just get up every day and think, conjure and build relentlessly. Thats how things happen. Thats how things get done. Thats what gets you your new IPhone and direct injection, everything to the quality of bed you need to sleep best.
None of it happens by hanging around places that do things that you dont believe in and just be outspoken in your objections. Doesnt help them, them that 'do' things, not one iota. So why are you here??? ???
"You are lying when you say your (Bruce, Tito and I) perceptions are the same. you have a common belief, but I'll bet they vary. Perhaps not much but I bet they will vary. So your perceptions of the truth will actually be different. Therefore just perceptions. You also deliberately left out others whose perceptions are similar but perhaps even less aligned. How long did you ponder before leaving out say, Chet? There is differing beliefs in all differing denominations. Are you going to tell me you are 100% in accord with Jews and with Muslims. Surely you must be. I mean you all believe in the same God. "
Chet!! Your right. Sorry Chet. I should go back through and find them all. My bad. thanks for pointing that out.
You can call me what you will. Some Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, and some know that he already came. So when you reference Jews, dont put them all in one basket. But yes, same God
If there are variations, not all of us argue those things, as much as you would have others believe.
There are many things that are argued that are minor compared to what is really important and agreed upon. I see that you cant understand that that is possible, sooo, oh well.
"What I just wrote above is yet another comment you will fail to respond to of the dozens you and your ilk have failed to comment on. Due to the very simple fact (perception) you cannot. At least not without deliberately deceiving (yet another perception of mine)."
Well, you were wrong. :P ;D There ya go thinking you know everything. ::)
"I don't consider my perception more correct than others but will always challenge people to back up their perceptions with more than "you must have faith" its the catch cry of the faithers here and only because they have nothing else, without that cry they are moribund."
But you cant back up your 'perceptions' with anything other than speculation, imagination and not even a 'booklet' from thousands of years ago. Nothing except what is in your head.
Mags
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 03:50:18 PM
What you say would be worrisome for us atheists if there was a grain of evidence for it. Thankfully there is not.
lol, why would you worry? Worried that you will still deny God even when presented with evidence?
Thats strange. Thankful? Thankful that there is no evidence of God???
Now I know. I know that even if god were standing in front of you, you would deny him.
How else are we to 'perceive' what you just wrote there?
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 08:12:47 PM
lol, why would you worry? Worried that you will still deny God even when presented with evidence?
Thats strange. Thankful? Thankful that there is no evidence of God???
Now I know. I know that even if god were standing in front of you, you would deny him.
How else are we to 'perceive' what you just wrote there?
Mags
Again you miss the point. I am not even talking about the existence of god here, but the existence of the Christian hell. What evidence is there of the Christian hell?
Leaving aside the question of whether this world was created by natural forces or an all powerful being, you still have to establish that (1) this being cares whether we believe he exists or not and (2) is evil enough to send us to eternal torture for the crime of not believing he exists. What evidence is there for this aside from 2000 year old Jewish fairy tales?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 09:13:34 PM
Again you miss the point. I am not even talking about the existence of god here, but the existence of the Christian hell. What evidence is there of the Christian hell?
Really? I dont see the word hell in your post. Is it in Bruces post that you were replying to? Who said hell is here on earth? And why is that important to you? Worried? ;)
Ahh, I see. If there is no hell, then there is nothing to worry about. Theres that logic workin for ya. Worried more about the possibility of hell than God who made it. Again, rejection of God even if there were proof of hell.
Let me get this right. If there were proof of hell, of which is described and named in the Bible, then you might believe in God? Or you would still need proof of God beyond that? I would guess your answer is yes from what Ive read so far. hopefully not. ;) ;D
Mags
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 09:13:34 PM
Leaving aside the question of whether this world was created by natural forces or an all powerful being, you still have to establish that (1) this being cares whether we believe he exists or not and (2) is evil enough to send us to eternal torture for the crime of not believing he exists. What evidence is there for this aside from 2000 year old Jewish fairy tales?
It is your perception that they are fairy tales. Just because you perceive it as such does not make it truth. So from now on, if you wish to label them as fairy tales, you should say "2000 year old Jewish scriptures that I consider to be fairy tales" Otherwise you are stating it as fact. You cannot prove it is or isnt, yet you pose it as truth. ::)
Cmon, you can do better than that. I mean like, you guys are always asking for evidence, facts, truth. Should we expect less from you? Hmmm????
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 09:36:07 PM
Really? I dont see the word hell in your post. Is it in Bruces post that you were replying to? Who said hell is here on earth? And why is that important to you? Worried? ;)
Ahh, I see. If there is no hell, then there is nothing to worry about. Theres that logic workin for ya. Worried more about the possibility of hell than God who made it. Again, rejection of God even if there were proof of hell.
Let me get this right. If there were proof of hell, of which is described and named in the Bible, then you might believe in God? Or you would still need proof of God beyond that? I would guess your answer is yes from what Ive read so far. hopefully not. ;) ;D
Mags
I quoted Bruce's post, so yes, it was a reply to him, and his point was that we should believe in god or bear god's wrath.
If there was proof of hell, that would necessarily entail proof of god, so yes, I am open to believing anything there is proof of. If tomorrow, Jesus himself came down to earth in his awesome godly form so that all would know who he is and explained to us that we must worship him or go to his eternal torture jail underground, then yes, I would say, "I was wrong, save me, Jesus." I would - I am open to all evidence.
But I will not believe such a fantastic story without such evidence. So for now, I dismiss the idea of hell.
And you must see how Hell is a tool used by the Christians to scare the nonbelievers to their point of view. It is one thing to say, "there is a god and you should join us in worshipping him." Because the natural response from nonbelievers to this is "well, even if your god exists and created everything, I see no evidence of your god intervening in things here on earth, so why should I waste time worshipping him." The Christian needs the stick of hell to go with the carrot of fulfilled prayers (which are kinda rare). So the Christian says "believe in my god or you will be tortured for all eternity after you die." Much more compelling!
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 09:44:56 PM
It is your perception that they are fairy tales. Just because you perceive it as such does not make it truth. So from now on, if you wish to label them as fairy tales, you should say "2000 year old Jewish scriptures that I consider to be fairy tales" Otherwise you are stating it as fact. You cannot prove it is or isnt, yet you pose it as truth. ::)
Cmon, you can do better than that. I mean like, you guys are always asking for evidence, facts, truth. Should we expect less from you? Hmmm? ???
Mags
Let me rephrase - they are stories in a book. And that is all I am accepting, because that is all we know. What evidence do you have that they are more than stories? Specifically, the bits about Jesus being god. I understand that some historical places are referenced, but Harry Potter references England, and it's not all true in those books.
The burden on proof is on those asserting the fantastic, not on those denying the fantastic for lack of evidence. That is which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
There is a planet they say is made of diamond. All compressed carbon. At a distance, Im sure it seems that way. But I would think that once someone could arrive there to inspect it, they would more than likely find other elements. possibly large amounts. Maybe just a little bit of this, and some of that. Maybe nothing else at all. All one big beautiful nugget floating in space. Then theres the moon. not much variety going on there. Mars. Mars has a few things!
But here. On Earth. Positioned just so far from the sun that provides excellent living temperatures compared to known planets, the Earth contains large amounts of every element from hydrogen on up.
Its a wonderful accident, isnt it. ;) Just a roll of the dice to some I suppose. What if we were missing 1 element. An important one. What could one be? Hydrogen? Nitrogen? Carbon? Oxygen??? Lead, gold, iron, uranium? Calcium? You name it. No matter how insignificant.
Now get rid of 15 elements from the earth.
Which ones would you remove if you had to, to maintain life here as it is or near so.?
Could it be done? Maybe there are some elements that can be gotten rid of, like uranium and such and it could be life as we know it, just without nuclear powers and other uses.
Thorium. It can do near what uranium can do, there is more of it ,and it is safer when used up. But cant make weapons out of used thorium silly. ;)
Ok uranium, thorium gone, what next?? Mind you we are selectively choosing elements to remove in judgement of its dangerous history. Not roll of the dice. How far can we go doing this? How many elements can be removed while still maintaining quality life for all plant and animal?
Soo, what could we do? Roll a 113 sided dice to select the outed elements randomly?
Hey, lets roll that 113 sided dice till we roll every element that goes 'into' the earth!!!
How many rolls do you think that would take to build the earth by doing that ?
Now take 113 , 113 sided dice. What are the chances of rolling all 113 and getting them all consecutive from 1 to 113? If we threw consecutive rolls of all the 113 sided dice, 113 of them, and each time added elements to the earth(creating it) till we have every element available, with the least element equal to our least element in existence in real life, imagine the different levels of different elements each time we complete the process described.
All being said, I fail to see that this is all just an accident, born of a big bang and simply evolution.
Im not settling for that. Ever. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 11:11:21 PM
There is a planet they say is made of diamond. All compressed carbon. At a distance, Im sure it seems that way. But I would think that once someone could arrive there to inspect it, they would more than likely find other elements. possibly large amounts. Maybe just a little bit of this, and some of that. Maybe nothing else at all. All one big beautiful nugget floating in space. Then theres the moon. not much variety going on there. Mars. Mars has a few things!
But here. On Earth. Positioned just so far from the sun that provides excellent living temperatures compared to known planets, the Earth contains large amounts of every element from hydrogen on up.
Its a wonderful accident, isnt it. ;) Just a roll of the dice to some I suppose. What if we were missing 1 element. An important one. What could one be? Hydrogen? Nitrogen? Carbon? Oxygen??? Lead, gold, iron, uranium? Calcium? You name it. No matter how insignificant.
Now get rid of 15 elements from the earth.
Which ones would you remove if you had to, to maintain life here as it is or near so.?
Could it be done? Maybe there are some elements that can be gotten rid of, like uranium and such and it could be life as we know it, just without nuclear powers and other uses.
Thorium. It can do near what uranium can do, there is more of it ,and it is safer when used up. But cant make weapons out of used thorium silly. ;)
Ok uranium, thorium gone, what next?? Mind you we are selectively choosing elements to remove in judgement of its dangerous history. Not roll of the dice. How far can we go doing this? How many elements can be removed while still maintaining quality life for all plant and animal?
Soo, what could we do? Roll a 113 sided dice to select the outed elements randomly?
Hey, lets roll that 113 sided dice till we roll every element that goes 'into' the earth!!!
How many rolls do you think that would take to build the earth by doing that ?
Now take 113 , 113 sided dice. What are the chances of rolling all 113 and getting them all consecutive from 1 to 113? If we threw consecutive rolls of all the 113 sided dice, 113 of them, and each time added elements to the earth(creating it) till we have every element available, with the least element equal to our least element in existence in real life, imagine the different levels of different elements each time we complete the process described.
All being said, I fail to see that this is all just an accident, born of a big bang and simply evolution.
Im not settling for that. Ever. ;)
Mags
None of what you said establishes Jesus.
Furthermore, there are billions of galaxies with billions of stars each. So the odds of the existence of rocky planets in hospitable zones is not all that unlikely. As far as the elements required to support life on earth, it only follows that life developed on earth in a way compatible with the elements here. But it does not follow from this that intelligent life can ONLY evolve in presence of the elements found on earth. How do you get to that conclusion?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 11:39:57 PM
None of what you said establishes Jesus.
Furthermore, there are billions of galaxies with billions of stars each. So the odds of the existence of rocky planets in hospitable zones is not all that unlikely. As far as the elements required to support life on earth, it only follows that life developed on earth in a way compatible with the elements here. But it does not follow from this that intelligent life can ONLY evolve in presence of the elements found on earth. How do you get to that conclusion?
All these incredible possibilities you believe in. Well good for you.
One of the questions was, how many of what elements can we get rid of from the planet and its business as usual with natural life as we know it, wit exception of what we could have done if we had them all.
Mags
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 11:39:57 PM
None of what you said establishes Jesus.
Never said it did. Twist all you want. Are you on drugs? I will say it establishes a much better chance at creation than Big Evo.
Mags
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 09:13:34 PM
Again you miss the point. I am not even talking about the existence of god here, but the existence of the Christian hell. What evidence is there of the Christian hell?
Leaving aside the question of whether this world was created by natural forces or an all powerful being, you still have to establish that (1) this being cares whether we believe he exists or not and (2) is evil enough to send us to eternal torture for the crime of not believing he exists. What evidence is there for this aside from 2000 year old Jewish fairy tales?
None of the links below will be "difinitive" for you, and I understand that. But for the "truth" seeker, it certainly points in a certain direction.
http://www.ourlifeafterdeath.com/fiery-hell-in-the-after-life/ronald-reagans-near-death-experience-horror-of-hell-in-life-after-death.html (http://www.ourlifeafterdeath.com/fiery-hell-in-the-after-life/ronald-reagans-near-death-experience-horror-of-hell-in-life-after-death.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0F5F4hp3mY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0F5F4hp3mY)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mathew 10:28 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire.
Mark 9:47-49Do NOT neglect so great a salvation. Today is the day of salvation. Turn to Christ Jesus today and his mercy and grace will bring times of refreshing to your life!
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 10:40:52 PM
Let me rephrase - they are stories in a book. And that is all I am accepting, because that is all we know. What evidence do you have that they are more than stories? Specifically, the bits about Jesus being god. I understand that some historical places are referenced, but Harry Potter references England, and it's not all true in those books.
The burden on proof is on those asserting the fantastic, not on those denying the fantastic for lack of evidence. That is which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
May I suggest that you take the time and effort to read the New Testament book of Romans. It has most of the answers that you seek and will save a lot of disk space and time.
Points to notice in the book of Romans:
1. God is God and His point of view is the only righteous and correct one that you can trust, and the only one that really matters, because of point 2.
2. God is also the judge and has already made His judgement on sin, and has pronounced His Son totally righteous and justified and sin free.
3. God is not sending you to hell solely on the basis, if you don't believe Him. (He actually Loves you and all of mankind). You go there because your father is Satan or the Devil by default. Adam's act of sin against God, the very nature and origin of sin (which makes you a son or daughter of the devil), has been passed on or inherited by every person on planet earth and that is why you need to acknowledge and accept the salvation provided by Jesus, the Son of God (who is also the Word of God, who created all that you see; suffered the pains of death on the cross in order to redeem you from sin and it's punishment of hell and judgment, (which was really made for the devil and his angels), and make you able to stand before a Holy (pure) God and judge, with the righteousness of Jesus the Christ as
your record, (His only righteous, sin free and Holy Son). Also part of Himself. God is in 3 entities, God the Father, God The Son (the Word of God), and God the Holy Spirit.
4.
Jesus wants to give you His righteousness in exchange for your inherited sin from Adam and including your sins done in the body past, present, and future, being nailed to His cross, 2000 years ago. He (God) thinks that this is the right thing for Him to do for you and everyone that inherited Sin from Adam, unfairly, unknowingly. That is the Christian message to you and that is only part of the Good News from God to man. It's a good deal for everyone and it's an example of God's Love for you, and it has already been paid for and done. Why not take advantage of what God has wonderfully provided for you and everyone. Please do yourself a favor and read the evidence that God has provided in His book and accept Him in your heart today. He has much more that He wants to give you freely. Read about it.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 29, 2012, 09:13:34 PM
snip...
What evidence is there of the Christian hell?
snip...
The catholic pope in recent years declared that " there is no place called heaven.
Heaven is a state of mind."
Ergo there is no hell. Hell is also a state of mind.
This is the only pronouncement by the papacy that I've ever agreed with.
Protestants (and many catholics) don't agree with the pope. Who's perception is right? The well learned pope, head of the largest single christian sect, or everybody else.
Like most atheists, I don't really care what the pope says. It's just another conversation starter. (or ender)
Quote from: hoptoad on October 30, 2012, 02:42:00 AM
The catholic pope in recent years declared that " there is no place called heaven.
Heaven is a state of mind."
In other words: Jesus died to release us from our own state of mind. To go into another state of mind.
Quote from: Liberty on October 29, 2012, 11:55:55 PM
May I suggest that you take the time and effort to read the New Testament book of Romans. It has most of the answers that you seek and will save a lot of disk space and time.
That is like me telling you to read J. K. Rowling if you want to learn how to make magic potions.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 26, 2012, 10:21:51 PM
i agree... all hail mighty ZEUS!
Hailed Almighty ZEUS in wrong time? Why he has sent Sandy? Or is it work of jealous Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Quote from: Newton II on October 30, 2012, 10:41:14 AM
Hailed Almighty ZEUS in wrong time? Why he has sent Sandy? Or is it work of jealous Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Zeus works in mysterious ways.
We are stardust, nothing more and nothing less. Witness creation, as seen from my backyard two nights ago:
Where is your God now?
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 30, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
We are stardust, nothing more and nothing less.
Can you prove that 'claim'? ;) Hopefully you can. ::) Ill be back from doing laundry in a couple hours. ;D Cant wait. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus ;)
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 30, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
We are stardust, nothing more and nothing less. Witness creation, as seen from my backyard two nights ago:
Where is your God now?
TK,
Go back to your own threads. The LAST person in the world we need commenting upon ANYTHING, is a paid schill, who perpetrated a FRAUD AND LIE, upon the FE Community. You never repented, nor apologized publicly. If I were the admin of this site, you would have been BANNED for life for what you did. You still owe me and my companions thousand of dollars wasted on your fraud. Pay pal will be just fine! I would say with all due respect, but I have none for a fraudster. Regardless of your reasons and justifications, fraud and lies. So please, go crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
::)
Bruce
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 30, 2012, 02:39:27 PM
Zeus works in mysterious ways.
Hi eatenbyagrue,
You all quip and joke about zeus, but how many people have you ever met that claim to have met him?
none. Multiplied Billions, through the last two millenia would claim to have actually had an encounter with the Living Christ, Jesus of Nazereth. There is a difference, whether the atheist mind cares to acknowledge it or not.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 30, 2012, 07:16:34 PM
We are stardust, nothing more and nothing less. Witness creation, as seen from my backyard two nights ago:
Where is your God now?
Where is your camera in that photo? Can you see your own face without using a reflector? For seeing your own face you should have a reflector and eyes. For seeing God you should have a spiritualistic third eye.
Here is a person who drilled his third eye!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Rampa
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 30, 2012, 08:01:13 PM
TK,
Go back to your own threads. The LAST person in the world we need commenting upon ANYTHING, is a paid schill, who perpetrated a FRAUD AND LIE, upon the FE Community. You never repented, nor apologized publicly. If I were the admin of this site, you would have been BANNED for life for what you did. You still owe me and my companions thousand of dollars wasted on your fraud. Pay pal will be just fine! I would say with all due respect, but I have none for a fraudster. Regardless of your reasons and justifications, fraud and lies. So please, go crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
::)
Bruce
What about:
Matthew 5:38-42
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-42&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-42&version=NIV)
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 30, 2012, 08:04:44 PM
Hi eatenbyagrue,
You all quip and joke about zeus, but how many people have you ever met that claim to have met him? none.
Multiplied Billions, through the last two millenia would claim to have actually had an encounter with the Living Christ, Jesus of Nazereth. There is a difference, whether the atheist mind cares to acknowledge it or not.
I don't know what denomination you follow, however Vatican only as recently as somewhere in 1990's officially acquired Copernican model of the universe, including relation Earth - Sun. Til this time the sun rotated around the earth. Of course, billions of followers could not oppose infallible leadership...
edit
My conclusion:
Not always majority is right. Also, Jesus was one against majority at his times.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 30, 2012, 08:01:13 PM
TK,
Go back to your own threads. The LAST person in the world we need commenting upon ANYTHING, is a paid schill, who perpetrated a FRAUD AND LIE, upon the FE Community. You never repented, nor apologized publicly. If I were the admin of this site, you would have been BANNED for life for what you did. You still owe me and my companions thousand of dollars wasted on your fraud. Pay pal will be just fine! I would say with all due respect, but I have none for a fraudster. Regardless of your reasons and justifications, fraud and lies. So please, go crawl back under the rock from whence you came.
::)
Bruce
Prove your assertions with evidence. You have in your very handle the name, TPU, of one of the very largest frauds ever seen in the Free Energy research community, the TPU. Yet you accuse me, someone who NEVER claimed any overunity and in fact always told everyone that there was nothing unusual at all going on in any of the devices that I have ever shown, of perpetrating some kind of fraud and lies. Yet you give no evidence.
Perhaps you are upset because you tried to build an OVERUNITY device based on something I -- or someone else -- showed, when I always told everyone right up front that it was no such thing. So of course you failed. Had you believed me instead of your own fantasies, you might have been entirely successful in building a device that performed exactly as something I showed. But you did not believe me, you chose to make and act upon your own assumptions ENTIRELY CONTRARY to what I clearly said: the devices I show are not overunity and all the things they illustrate are done using entirely conventional physics. You didn't believe it, though, did you.
Now.... I show a photograph in this thread, trying to make a point ON TOPIC, the "probality of God", and you attack me out of the blue OFF TOPIC for some resentment that you think I'm responsible for. And you do it without any support for your assertions. If you start arguing with me here you will be derailing this thread. So why don't YOU crawl back under your bridge, troll and stalker, and leave me alone, until you are prepared to PROVE that I ever mislead anyone by telling them that any device I have ever shown is overunity in any way, or that anything I've ever shown is faked, except purposely illustrated and clearly explained fakes, like my reproduction of Mylow's effect. But of course you cannot, just as you cannot get a TPU to work as claimed either.
Paid shill indeed. I wish that were true. Everybody seems to think I get paid for this, but look around my "laboratory". There's maybe six hundred dollars worth of gear in there and I make things out of discarded television sets and recyclable garbage parts. You lot with your "paid shill" accusations really make me laugh, and it's a burr under my saddleblanket too, because I think I _should_ get paid for some of what I do, but I don't.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 30, 2012, 07:22:59 PM
Can you prove that 'claim'? ;) Hopefully you can. ::) Ill be back from doing laundry in a couple hours. ;D Cant wait. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus ;)
That claim has been widely substantiated by modern science. When stars run out of hydrogen, they start to fuse helium and higher elements. A supernova explosion is required for the heavier elements, basically anything above iron.
HHhhmm
So Bruce selflessly Pursues at great personal time and expence what he percieves to be a viable way to harvest energy for the benefit of the community.........
And TK Selfishly perpetrates a Prank which costs many members of this community with very limited resources and time a great deal of money and time.....
And when He stands on a place so unique... a rock flying through a most truely desolate place and looks toward the heavens,which save for our atmosphere would not even be visable to a naked eye.
He sees in all its splendor.........
Dirt...........
What a surprise that these two men would see things so differently..........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on October 31, 2012, 01:13:35 AM
And when He stands on a place so unique... a rock flying through a most truely desolate place and looks toward the heavens,which save for our atmosphere would not even be visable to a naked eye.
He sees in all its splendor.........
Dirt...........
Lol dirt. That was hilarious. Still laughin.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 30, 2012, 08:04:44 PM
Hi eatenbyagrue,
You all quip and joke about zeus, but how many people have you ever met that claim to have met him? none.
Multiplied Billions, through the last two millenia would claim to have actually had an encounter with the Living Christ, Jesus of Nazereth. There is a difference, whether the atheist mind cares to acknowledge it or not.
Key word: "claim"
Still laughin. Cant get it out of my head. lol Chet, that was your 1 hit wonder. ;) ;D
Mags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo
Quote from: ramset on October 31, 2012, 01:13:35 AM
HHhhmm
So Bruce selflessly Pursues at great personal time and expence what he percieves to be a viable way to harvest energy for the benefit of the community.........
And TK Selfishly perpetrates a Prank which costs many members of this community with very limited resources and time a great deal of money and time.....
What those "many members of this community" experience in such a case, is called LACK OF SPIRIT. Right?
Star dust .....
Yeh, I like that. Star dust .... it has a certain elegance to it, it sounds like a lyric for a song.
We're star dust. Children of the stars. Earthlings in the universe!
May be that's just a song in my head .. It sounds familiar ... KneeDeep
... Now I remember, It was the "Rock God" David Bowie, and it was "Star Man" :)
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 08:04:51 PM
"probably in some vain attempt to try and say I cant be happy because I am not christian."
Well to you, happiness is just a matter of perception, right? ;)
Correct!
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 08:04:51 PM
"There are those things that are universally perceived to be constant (true) but perhaps when revealed may not be so simple an example of that would be gravity."
So why is it so hard for you to believe that your perceptions are constant when it comes to God!! You make it sound like gravity is 'the' most mysterious thing. Yet you seem to have God all figured out. Come on man, think. ;)
I do think for myself! I am not enslaved to the beliefs of others.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 08:04:51 PM
"I think it is a stupid statement and quite untrue. but believers in that theory would argue my perception is wrong."
And you guys argue that our perception is wrong. Soo, were even? ;D
Correct again you are doing well
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 08:04:51 PM
"Many here argue my perception of OU which discounts it ever being possible is wrong. Perhaps it is. but I have been shown nothing by anyone to prove otherwise and until I do I will maintain that perception."
Thats a good point. There are also those such as you that discount us. I dont know if the balance is 'even' there. I guess there are differences in people. Some just get up every day and think, conjure and build relentlessly. Thats how things happen. Thats how things get done. Thats what gets you your new IPhone and direct injection, everything to the quality of bed you need to sleep best.
None of it happens by hanging around places that do things that you dont believe in and just be outspoken in your objections. Doesnt help them, them that 'do' things, not one iota. So why are you here??? ???
Actually I don't 'discount' you but I do say give me proof and more importantly look for proof for yourself!
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 08:04:51 PM
"You are lying when you say your (Bruce, Tito and I) perceptions are the same. you have a common belief, but I'll bet they vary. Perhaps not much but I bet they will vary. So your perceptions of the truth will actually be different. Therefore just perceptions. You also deliberately left out others whose perceptions are similar but perhaps even less aligned. How long did you ponder before leaving out say, Chet? There is differing beliefs in all differing denominations. Are you going to tell me you are 100% in accord with Jews and with Muslims. Surely you must be. I mean you all believe in the same God. "
Chet!! Your right. Sorry Chet. I should go back through and find them all. My bad. thanks for pointing that out.
You can call me what you will. Some Jews are still waiting for the Messiah, and some know that he already came. So when you reference Jews, dont put them all in one basket. But yes, same God
If there are variations, not all of us argue those things, as much as you would have others believe.
There are many things that are argued that are minor compared to what is really important and agreed upon. I see that you cant understand that that is possible, sooo, oh well.
"What I just wrote above is yet another comment you will fail to respond to of the dozens you and your ilk have failed to comment on. Due to the very simple fact (perception) you cannot. At least not without deliberately deceiving (yet another perception of mine)."
Well, you were wrong. :P ;D There ya go thinking you know everything. ::)
Not much of a response was it. and you have ignored all the others.
You also prove my point. By leaving out Muslims and then downplaying differences. you are admitting there are differences, from small ones to MAJOR ones. If there was only one God and he was consistent and spoke to each of you individually as
you all claim he does as part of your 'proof' Then there should be no differences you should all speak with one voice, but you don't, you are disparate and in that inconsistency is shown the falsehood of your perceptions.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 08:04:51 PM
"I don't consider my perception more correct than others but will always challenge people to back up their perceptions with more than "you must have faith" its the catch cry of the faithers here and only because they have nothing else, without that cry they are moribund."
But you cant back up your 'perceptions' with anything other than speculation, imagination and not even a 'booklet' from thousands of years ago. Nothing except what is in your head.
Mags
LOL a booklet from 1000 years ago.
Science has a history written into every rock, into every blade of grass into the orbits of our planets and the stars in our universe our 'booklet' goes back billions of years
We have barely begun to read it.
But you stick to your book of tales. It was written with children in mind.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 29, 2012, 11:35:58 AM
That is why we are NOT to follow the perceptions of man! For they lead to falsehood, and false religions. God does not have a "perception", but he IS Truth. Not the "perception" of truth, but the "essence" of Truth. Your argument is accurate from the "perspective" of sinful man.
God tell us what his "Truth" is, that we are ALL wrongdoers, in need of saving. That we are ALL lost in need of Salvation. That we are ALL without hope and without God. That there is ONE answer to this malady, and that is the remedy of salvation in and through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
You can explain your "perception" to the Father, as your excuse for rejecting so great a salvation. Let me know how that goes for you......
You do prattle on don't you. Keep repeating the mantra, It will help you sleep at night.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 29, 2012, 11:11:21 PM
There is a planet they say is made of diamond. All compressed carbon. At a distance, Im sure it seems that way. But I would think that once someone could arrive there to inspect it, they would more than likely find other elements. possibly large amounts. Maybe just a little bit of this, and some of that. Maybe nothing else at all. All one big beautiful nugget floating in space. Then theres the moon. not much variety going on there. Mars. Mars has a few things!
But here. On Earth. Positioned just so far from the sun that provides excellent living temperatures compared to known planets, the Earth contains large amounts of every element from hydrogen on up.
Its a wonderful accident, isnt it. ;) Just a roll of the dice to some I suppose. What if we were missing 1 element. An important one. What could one be? Hydrogen? Nitrogen? Carbon? Oxygen??? Lead, gold, iron, uranium? Calcium? You name it. No matter how insignificant.
Mags
Take a look at this picture.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Galactic_Cntr_full_cropped.jpg
Then realise. We are in just one of BILLIONS of such galaxies
With countless trillions of stars
It only takes ONE to make the conditions right for life. Perhaps we are the only one in the entire universe. But the fact we are here proves there is at least one planet in just the right place with just the right conditions.
So how does your dice trick look now? pretty insignificant I'd say.
Oh and its not compressed diamond, its liquid diamond a sea of diamond. Maybe it exists maybe not. Its only speculation. but If I say I wrote it with Gods guidance would that help you believe it?
One of your bible tales we discussed at work yesterday
When Moses led the Jews out of Egypt. They left in the middle of the night. and when the guards awoke they gave chase.
Apparently there was 600K men. it is believed there was 2 million all up. Moses led them through the sea and thus confounded the pharaohs attempt to bring them back.
Now 2 million people walking 10 abreast stretches in a column for 150 Miles. Men woman and children.
If that column started at the edge of the sea how long do you think it would take to walk them all through? How many would have died in the attempt. how the children, elderly and the sick would have held up the others and made progress slower.
And the pharaohs men on horses and in Chariots couldnt keep up with them?
Yet another joke on Christians from the book of jokes.
By the way 2 million+ people in the desert for 40 years would have left some trace. There is none.
But its OK god tells you in your heart your book of tales is true. And you have to beleive that voice in your head don't you.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 30, 2012, 08:04:44 PM
Hi eatenbyagrue,
You all quip and joke about zeus, but how many people have you ever met that claim to have met him? none.
Multiplied Billions, through the last two millenia would claim to have actually had an encounter with the Living Christ, Jesus of Nazereth. There is a difference, whether the atheist mind cares to acknowledge it or not.
Forgot your pills perhaps? How many have met Jesus? an actual encounter.
No sane person I ever met has made any statements like that. And I have met a LOT of christians. Every day at church for a long time remember.
I am sure Mags wants to distance himself from you sometimes, but to continue the myth he will stick by your side.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 30, 2012, 09:12:49 PM
Prove your assertions with evidence. You have in your very handle the name, TPU, of one of the very largest frauds ever seen in the Free Energy research community, the TPU. Yet you accuse me, someone who NEVER claimed any overunity and in fact always told everyone that there was nothing unusual at all going on in any of the devices that I have ever shown, of perpetrating some kind of fraud and lies. Yet you give no evidence.
Perhaps you are upset because you tried to build an OVERUNITY device based on something I -- or someone else -- showed, when I always told everyone right up front that it was no such thing. So of course you failed. Had you believed me instead of your own fantasies, you might have been entirely successful in building a device that performed exactly as something I showed. But you did not believe me, you chose to make and act upon your own assumptions ENTIRELY CONTRARY to what I clearly said: the devices I show are not overunity and all the things they illustrate are done using entirely conventional physics. You didn't believe it, though, did you.
Now.... I show a photograph in this thread, trying to make a point ON TOPIC, the "probality of God", and you attack me out of the blue OFF TOPIC for some resentment that you think I'm responsible for. And you do it without any support for your assertions. If you start arguing with me here you will be derailing this thread. So why don't YOU crawl back under your bridge, troll and stalker, and leave me alone, until you are prepared to PROVE that I ever mislead anyone by telling them that any device I have ever shown is overunity in any way, or that anything I've ever shown is faked, except purposely illustrated and clearly explained fakes, like my reproduction of Mylow's effect. But of course you cannot, just as you cannot get a TPU to work as claimed either.
Paid shill indeed. I wish that were true. Everybody seems to think I get paid for this, but look around my "laboratory". There's maybe six hundred dollars worth of gear in there and I make things out of discarded television sets and recyclable garbage parts. You lot with your "paid shill" accusations really make me laugh, and it's a burr under my saddleblanket too, because I think I _should_ get paid for some of what I do, but I don't.
You know that you fraudulently posted a "working" OCAL magnet motor. You know it, I know it, many of the older members here know it, and your buddy mile high knows it. ;) So, say what you want, I know what you are.
And you are also paid to "debunk" so called overunity devices. This from your own mouth a very very long time ago. I stick by what I said. You changed your username, but I have known all along who you are. I have not gone onto your threads to mess with you. But anything you say holds zero credance for discussion. I would rather talk to Wilby than with you. So this too is my last response to you. You can forget paypal, as Qwert was correct. I forgive that debt. And would forgive the fraud with an apology.
Bruce
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 31, 2012, 04:38:08 AM
Forgot your pills perhaps? How many have met Jesus? an actual encounter.
No sane person I ever met has made any statements like that. And I have met a LOT of christians. Every day at church for a long time remember.
I am sure Mags wants to distance himself from you sometimes, but to continue the myth he will stick by your side.
Only a personal encounter with the risen Lord can save the soul. I shared my "personal encounter" some pages ago. EVERY true believer has had one. This is called their "testimony". Saul of Tarsus in the book of Acts also had one. When he was blinded by the Lord for a season, after throwing Christians into prison, and trying to make them blaspheme, by the use of torture. After his "personal encounter" Saul of Tarsus became the greatest Apostle of all, the Apostle Paul.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 31, 2012, 04:02:20 AM
One of your bible tales we discussed at work yesterday
When Moses led the Jews out of Egypt. They left in the middle of the night. and when the guards awoke they gave chase.
Apparently there was 600K men. it is believed there was 2 million all up. Moses led them through the sea and thus confounded the pharaohs attempt to bring them back.
Now 2 million people walking 10 abreast stretches in a column for 150 Miles. Men woman and children.
If that column started at the edge of the sea how long do you think it would take to walk them all through? How many would have died in the attempt. how the children, elderly and the sick would have held up the others and made progress slower.
And the pharaohs men on horses and in Chariots couldnt keep up with them?
Yet another joke on Christians from the book of jokes.
By the way 2 million+ people in the desert for 40 years would have left some trace. There is none.
But its OK god tells you in your heart your book of tales is true. And you have to beleive that voice in your head don't you.
If you actually tried to "read" the stories that you speak about, you would find how faulty your version is compared to the bible. There was actually a pillar of fire and a cloud that kept the egyptian chariots from the Jews. Also they have found a chariot wheel grave yard in the read sea. So, laugh at that.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 31, 2012, 03:41:16 AM
You do prattle on don't you. Keep repeating the mantra, It will help you sleep at night.
My love for you souls allows me to prattle on, and to sleep quite soundly with a clear consience. God loves you Chris. Don't fight him, accept him. I once was you. May you one day become as I am. Hope, Faith, and Love. Beautiful things, rooted in Christ.
Quote from: Qwert on October 30, 2012, 09:07:34 PM
What about:
Matthew 5:38-42
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-42&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A38-42&version=NIV)
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
I don't know what denomination you follow, however Vatican only as recently as somewhere in 1990's officially acquired Copernican model of the universe, including relation Earth - Sun. Til this time the sun rotated around the earth. Of course, billions of followers could not oppose infallible leadership...
edit
My conclusion:
Not always majority is right. Also, Jesus was one against majority at his times.
Qwert,
Your conclusion is correct! Not always majority is right. And we are not Roman Catholics nor do we follow the pope. False religion, sprinkled with truth. Just enough to innoculate and to deceive the masses. Believers in Christ follow the Scripture, the word of God.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 31, 2012, 03:33:06 AM
Star dust .....
Yeh, I like that. Star dust .... it has a certain elegance to it, it sounds like a lyric for a song.
We're star dust. Children of the stars. Earthlings in the universe!
May be that's just a song in my head .. It sounds familiar ... KneeDeep
... Now I remember, It was the "Rock God" David Bowie, and it was "Star Man" :)
"We are stardust" by Joni Mitchell, making a live tribute to the grand happening of Woodstock 1970
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aOGnVKWbwc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aOGnVKWbwc)
Gwandau
To all non Christanholics,
It is interesting that religion in so many cases incorporates a hierarchical leader with super powers. Is this only an attempt to impersonate the unexplained natural powers at hand, or is there a historical source of some kind behind all this sorrowful and fear ridden myths.
There is quite a big piece of morbidity apparent in almost all religions, like the morbid symbol of a torture device being the center of Christianity. If Christianity had been born today, would the symbol have been the electric chair instead of the cross? Probably. Or would the cross have been replaced by a syringe with Hibernal and white-coats taking care of the lunatic claiming to be the son of some god?
It is quite intriguing to speculate about the cause behind the dire psychology of this intricate psychological "nonreturn valve" system called religion. How clever the leaders have played upon the strings of the unconscioussness and the confused identification of the inner disalogue as being the voice of the god!
I think it is absolutely fantastic, and being here in this thread is such an opportunity, it's very much like going to the Zoo and watching all the strange creatures, knowing that they are behind their bars and I am free as a bird.
But what is the historical source behind all these quite different religions? What do you non religious guys think?
For example, what if todays religions all are the systemized aftermath of ancient stigmatic effects played upon us by superior alien visitors, who for some reasons came here and violated our self esteem as a race by dominating us and thus leaving this unhealthy trail of stigma called religion all over the place.
One thing that indicates this is the Sumerian stories about the Annunaki with their long skulls, who maybe were the original Pharaos of pre-historic Egypt, who after leaving Earth later on were mimicked by the human leaders of historic Egypt who shaped the skulls of their offspring in the image of the Annunaki.
If this farfetched but hilarious theory is true, that would mean that all god-incorporating religions are unique to Earth, and that such religions are unlikely to happen on planets unvisited by superior races.
What's you own take on this? And please Faithers spare me of your single minded repetitious reactions, there is no one here interested in your morbid sharing of your prison cells. This is a discussion for free men.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on October 31, 2012, 04:42:11 PM
"We are stardust" by Joni Mitchell, making a live tribute to the grand happening of Woodstock 1970
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aOGnVKWbwc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aOGnVKWbwc)
Gwandau
Yeah, I remember that song now that you've mentioned it. Also Crosby Stills Nash & Young did a song back in the 70's, I think it was called "Back to the Garden".
Goes something like, "We are star dust, we are golden and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden"
Cheers
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 31, 2012, 04:05:47 PM
You can forget paypal, as Qwert was correct. I forgive that debt. And would forgive the fraud with an apology.
If I was correct, there is no room for any additional conditions (apology?). At least, my (former) denomination interprets it like that. Also, there is no room for any grumble.
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 31, 2012, 03:40:06 AM
We have barely begun to read it.
Yet you think you have it all figured out. ::) Well you better tell them before they have to read any further. ;) Its too bad that you are well read(as you say) in the Bible.
I suppose just reading it and making judgement on it before you actually 'listened' to what it says to you, happens for many. You did read that you have to ask for the holy spirit in order for you to understand it correctly, didnt you? But maybe you just read it like its just a story.
I didnt read it like its just a story. Years ago I did. In my 30s, I was in a position that I was very interested in finding the truth. I took it for what it tells me. I did. And I received.
Your right. I cannot prove it to you with solid earthly evidence. But you cannot see that would be too easy if you know what the Bible says
You portray it like if there is a God, then that God should do things by your rules, the way you think things should be. Free will. Lucifer has free will and many followers. ;)
If you read the Bible, you would know that the soul has free will, to believe what ever they wish. It is written that some souls will be saved and some not, totally your choice, being that free will can become a believer or not being a believer, whichever one decides to go, with their free will.
Believing is not just guessing and taking that direction. In fact the real believing comes when you know you are experiencing something that is not of this 'life as you know it' And it doesnt go away. some people do walk away from it, after some time. They made a choice even though they 'know' the truth. Free will. The Bible tells us that the thoughts in our heads are not always our own. In fact it says that some thoughts may seem as though the come from God, but really they are coming from somewhere else. We have to determine what is right and what is wrong. Sometimes we dont see so well. But is you have the holy spirit, its like a new set of glasses. ;) Really. ;) Big difference. Again, not perfect, still a sinner, but soo much better. ;) Some might say well why does it matter if we sin since Jesus dies for our sins? It doesnt. But by the level of sins one commits can be a good determination if the persons faith is true or not. Just because some fake it, doesnt mean that others are.
Im no where near saying Im perfect, as nobody is. But this has made me better than I was. The contrast from then till now is blinding.
I was there. Id read books on hypnosis and out of body experiences. Now that stuff interests me the least bit. I know that hypnosis works and can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Out of body, never really had that happen, lets say in the sense of how it is explained, as I had read quite a bit about it.
I dont label myself with a particular church. The Bible is the ultimate authority. Nobody had to sell it to me. I figured it out without being part of an affiliation.. And so can you. Ya just have to want it bad enough.
Thats the best way I can put it for now. Gotta git to bed soon.
I dont want to argue. I am willing to have decent conversation without the belittling. I do feel the need to defend my friends in God if the attacks are harsh for no apparent reasons other than to just bully and be abusive. Im a fighter. But I pull a LOT of punches. You know a lot of it is unnecessary. You know what is right and wrong. You know what decency is. ;)
Mags
OK, Bruce_TPU, you can blame me for your failure to produce an impossible device. I don't mind, much. You really should look deeply into your own soul, though, to find why you have such a strong need that you IGNORE what the builder and presenter of such a device tells you, and go off on your own interpretation, then blame the builder for your failures.
Suppose someone shows you a suit with wings, and demonstrates it flapping. He tells you right up front that this suit, in spite of its wonderful looking wings and all the flapping, can never make you fly. But you see only the flapping and you ignore what you are told, you build a replica of the suit and strap it on and go jump off a building, flapping like crazy, and hurt yourself. Who is responsible?
By the way.... had much success with the TPU, have you?
Ah... and Chet. I wouldn't even be on this forum if it weren't for you. Should I be grateful? Sometimes I wonder.
The fallen ones who abandoned the heavens to have intercourse with the daughters of men which produced an impious offspring, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVgnvt1YaDc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVgnvt1YaDc) (video footage of this impious offspring)
Genesis 6:4
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Book of Enoch, Chapter 12
1Before all these things Enoch was concealed; nor did any one of the sons of men know where he was concealed, where he had been, and what had happened. 2He was wholly engaged with the holy ones, and with the Watchers in his days. 3I, Enoch, was blessing the great Lord and King of peace. 4And behold the Watchers called me Enoch the scribe. 5Then the Lord said to me: Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women. 6And have done as the sons of men do, by taking to themselves wives, and who have been greatly corrupted on the earth; 7That on the earth they shall never obtain peace and remission of sin. For they shall not rejoice in their offspring; they shall behold the slaughter of their beloved; shall lament for the destruction of their sons; and shall petition for ever; but shall not obtain mercy and peace.
Gravock
Quote from: CuriousChris on October 31, 2012, 04:02:20 AM
One of your bible tales we discussed at work yesterday
When Moses led the Jews out of Egypt. They left in the middle of the night. and when the guards awoke they gave chase.
Apparently there was 600K men. it is believed there was 2 million all up. Moses led them through the sea and thus confounded the pharaohs attempt to bring them back.
Now 2 million people walking 10 abreast stretches in a column for 150 Miles. Men woman and children.
If that column started at the edge of the sea how long do you think it would take to walk them all through? How many would have died in the attempt. how the children, elderly and the sick would have held up the others and made progress slower.
And the pharaohs men on horses and in Chariots couldnt keep up with them?
Yet another joke on Christians from the book of jokes.
By the way 2 million+ people in the desert for 40 years would have left some trace. There is none.
But its OK god tells you in your heart your book of tales is true. And you have to beleive that voice in your head don't you.
In addition to Bruces's reply, you're totally wrong when you say there is no trace of them being in the desert for 40 years. Watch this secret footage which was smuggled out of Saudi Arabia at great risk, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cfPMKv2fBM
TPTB (satan) is hiding things from you. We Win!!!!
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on October 31, 2012, 11:38:08 PM
But maybe you just read it like its just a story.
I didnt read it like its just a story. Years ago I did. In my 30s, I was in a position that I was very interested in finding the truth. I took it for what it tells me. I did. And I received.
Just about any book, if one reads it not like a story, his conclusion will be different from those who do.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 01:06:39 AM
snip... Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women. 6And have done as the sons of men do, by taking to themselves wives, and who have been greatly corrupted on the earth
snip...
Gravock
Just another example of the bible's mysogynistic male authors. The watchers desert their station because they are smitten with the beauty of human females and overcome by their own desire and lust - and it's the poor female's (victims) fault. Typical.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 01, 2012, 01:58:31 AM
Just another example of the bible's mysogynistic male authors. The watchers desert their station because they are smitten with the beauty of human females and overcome by their own desire and lust - and it's the poor female's (victims) fault. Typical.
Who's blaming the female ? It was the watchers who abandon their own natural habitation, not the women. This really happened as written in scripture, and the video footage is scientific evidence of it occurring. This is one of the reasons why Muslim women wear head coverings.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 01:06:39 AM
snip..
who have been polluted with women.
snip..
Mysogynistic garbage!
Quote from: hoptoadsnip..
who have been polluted with women.
snip..
Quote from: hoptoad on November 01, 2012, 02:31:06 AM
Mysogynistic garbage!
The statement, "who have been polluted with women", would be similar in regards to men, "who have been polluted with animals". It was unnatural for the watchers to do this, thus they polluted themselves by this act. It has nothing to do with hatred towards women, LOL.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 02:48:48 AM
The statement, "who have been polluted with women", is similar in regards to men, "who have been polluted with animals". It was unnatural for the watchers to do this, thus they polluted themselves by this act. It has nothing to do with hatred towards women, LOL.
Gravock
The mere notion that women are a pollutant, by which the watchers polluted themselves, is appalling.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 01, 2012, 03:05:52 AM
The mere notion that women are a pollutant, by which the watchers polluted themselves, is appalling.
This is no different than bestiality. If you think having intercourse with a lower life form, or any other life form for that matter which is not of your nature, wouldn't be a pollutant to you, then that is really appalling. I guess you know a reprobate mystery like the watchers.
reprobate:n.
1. A morally unprincipled person.
2. One who is predestined to damnation.
adj.
1. Morally unprincipled; shameless.
2. Rejected by God and without hope of salvation.
tr.v. rep·ro·bat·ed, rep·ro·bat·ing, rep·ro·bates
1. To disapprove of; condemn.
2. To abandon to eternal damnation. Used of God.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 03:18:59 AM
This is no different than bestiality
snip....
Know that first hand do you?
Quote from: hoptoad on November 01, 2012, 03:24:32 AM
Know that first hand do you?
No, because I find it appalling. You on the other hand apparently do not.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 03:27:59 AM
No, because I find it appalling. You on the other hand apparently do not.
Gravock
I find it extremely offensive that you would compare an imaginary angel having a relationship with a woman (supposedly made in the image of god), with bestiality between a real man and a real animal. (which I also find offensive - to the animal). I also find offensive, your flippant LOL attitude toward mysogyny in the bible.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on October 31, 2012, 04:13:15 PM
If you actually tried to "read" the stories that you speak about, you would find how faulty your version is compared to the bible. There was actually a pillar of fire and a cloud that kept the egyptian chariots from the Jews. Also they have found a chariot wheel grave yard in the read sea. So, laugh at that.
Ha Ha Bruce the joke is on you
Exodus 14:24. During the last watch of the night the Lord looked down from the
pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion.
So to escape the Egyptions the pillar of fire and cloud confused the army. Obviously it must have confused them for a long time to allow the Jews to get out of the city. There was two million of them after all. So assuming they were all fit and the city gates allowed it. it would take at least 3 days from the first person leaving till the last one walked out the gate.
Actually I believe the Jews were collected from all over Egypt. In which case it would have probably taken weeks to get them all together to start their improbable trek.
Exodus 13:21-22. By day the Lord went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and
by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.
Then the pillar(s) moved to the FRONT of the at least 150 Mile column to lead them and NEVER LEFT so the Egyptians were free to catch them from the rear.
But lets ignore that and say God stopped the Egyptians, appeared day and night to lead them and then opened the sea for long enough maybe 5 days
Would you not call that a miracle? I would.
But as we have discussed before Miracles PROVE God and therefore deny true free will. Being a 'vengeful' God also denies free will.
So which cake do you want to have and to eat as well?
Oh and if you think the finding of a chariot wheel at the bottom of a stretch of water proves anything. then you my friend will believe in anything. perhaps it was originally a chariot wreckers yard. I am pretty sure they had them back then.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 01:33:15 AM
In addition to Bruces's reply, you're totally wrong when you say there is no trace of them being in the desert for 40 years. Watch this secret footage which was smuggled out of Saudi Arabia at great risk, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cfPMKv2fBM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cfPMKv2fBM)
TPTB (satan) is hiding things from you. We Win!!!!
Gravock
smuggled out at great risk. BALONEY. There was nothing in that video except false claims. Umm should I say err You Lose?
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 04:19:10 AM
Oh and if you think the finding of a chariot wheel at the bottom of a stretch of water proves anything. then you my friend will believe in anything. perhaps it was originally a chariot wreckers yard. I am pretty sure they had them back then.
Given the historical overlap between, the osirians, the phoenicians, the ethiopians and the egyptions, with the various conflicts as well as peaceful trading, then I would be more surprised if chariot wheels were not found all the way down both sides of the red sea. Trade routes by the egyptians extended to the furthest reaches on both sides of the red sea to gulf of Aden, with ancient mesopotamia sitting serving as the convergence point of all the middle east trade routes. I'd wouldn't be surprised to find old chariot wheels throughout the whole region.
Quote from: Magluvin on October 31, 2012, 11:38:08 PM
I dont label myself with a particular church. The Bible is the ultimate authority. Nobody had to sell it to me. I figured it out without being part of an affiliation.. And so can you. Ya just have to want it bad enough.
Mags
That is the most correct thing you have said so far.
"Ya just have to want it bad enough. "
Perhaps you have read one of my quotes on the topic of OU.
"Wanting it to be so, doesn't make it so"
People here want over unity to be true SO MUCH they will believe any old rubbish. The story is the same for faithers.
If you want to believe in God, Chemtrails, OU, Alien visits enough you will accept the words of those people who tend to support your desires and ignore the words of those who do not support your desire.
That is the nature of man (well some anyway)
You say you found your own way. Well I say you chose who to listen to and who to ignore based on your "wanting it bad enough". If its made you happy, good for you. but that does not make it true.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 01, 2012, 04:07:25 AM
I find it extremely offensive that you would compare an imaginary angel having a relationship with a woman (supposedly made in the image of god), with bestiality between a real man and a real animal. (which I also find offensive - to the animal). I also find offensive, your flippant LOL attitude toward mysogyny in the bible.
I choose to worship the Creator and not the creation. If you want to worship the creation (woman), then good luck with that. I find it offensive for your hatred towards God. Also, the first man and woman was made together in the image of God and they were called Man. Adam and Eve was not the first man and woman. They were not made in the image of God. They were of a resurrection of a dying race. The creation of man in Genesis 1:26-31 is not the same creation story of man in Genesis 2:7-23. Adam was formed from the dust of the ground and Eve was created from Adam's rib. They were created separate and not together as is found in Genesis 1. They only became like God when their eyes were opened after eating from the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden. They were not physically blind. When they ate from the forbidden tree, then their pineal gland or third eye was fully opened and activated which allowed their spiritual body to ascend into the heavens and gain knowledge. This happens when we undergo a physical death. God said they would surely die if they ate from the tree, and they did. Then God made garments of skin and banished them from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
Matt 6:22 The lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on October 31, 2012, 06:09:15 PM
To all non Christanholics,
It is interesting that religion in so many cases incorporates a hierarchical leader with super powers. Is this only an attempt to impersonate the unexplained natural powers at hand, or is there a historical source of some kind behind all this sorrowful and fear ridden myths.
There is quite a big piece of morbidity apparent in almost all religions, like the morbid symbol of a torture device being the center of Christianity. If Christianity had been born today, would the symbol have been the electric chair instead of the cross? Probably. Or would the cross have been replaced by a syringe with Hibernal and white-coats taking care of the lunatic claiming to be the son of some god?
It is quite intriguing to speculate about the cause behind the dire psychology of this intricate psychological "nonreturn valve" system called religion. How clever the leaders have played upon the strings of the unconscioussness and the confused identification of the inner disalogue as being the voice of the god!
I think it is absolutely fantastic, and being here in this thread is such an opportunity, it's very much like going to the Zoo and watching all the strange creatures, knowing that they are behind their bars and I am free as a bird.
But what is the historical source behind all these quite different religions? What do you non religious guys think?
For example, what if todays religions all are the systemized aftermath of ancient stigmatic effects played upon us by superior alien visitors, who for some reasons came here and violated our self esteem as a race by dominating us and thus leaving this unhealthy trail of stigma called religion all over the place.
One thing that indicates this is the Sumerian stories about the Annunaki with their long skulls, who maybe were the original Pharaos of pre-historic Egypt, who after leaving Earth later on were mimicked by the human leaders of historic Egypt who shaped the skulls of their offspring in the image of the Annunaki.
If this farfetched but hilarious theory is true, that would mean that all god-incorporating religions are unique to Earth, and that such religions are unlikely to happen on planets unvisited by superior races.
What's you own take on this? And please Faithers spare me of your single minded repetitious reactions, there is no one here interested in your morbid sharing of your prison cells. This is a discussion for free men.
Gwandau
I think there are plenty of good reasons for religion No need to introduce third parties into it.
I believe religion has/had a purpose. Before there was formulated laws and the organised means to enforce those laws. you needed to apply rules. thus we see the lingering of those rules in religious beliefs. I have given the example of unclean meat. it was offensive to 'god' to eat unclean meat. actually it was a good way to make the less intellectual amongst us to not eat the disease ridden meats of the day. but only the fear of this vengeful god was enough to enforce it
God was the enforcer
God was also the explainer of the unexplainable. The so called god of the gaps. In a time before books and TV he was the entertainment (children's stories) He was used as the teacher, to help people to become wise. For children he was the boogie man. Don't pick your nose or you'll go to hell.
Even today this is the purpose of religion and god. Some people simply NEED god/religion they are unable to function properly without a crutch.
I personally don't believe in Aliens visiting us. Space and more importantly time is too vast. The chance of us existing at a time when another race within cooee of us happened to rise out of the stardust at the same time I think is too remote. The universe is big I mean really fucking big!
Things like the ornamental headgear is about separation. separating the rulers from the ruled, an indicator of position. look at fashions over the last couple of hundred years? what evidence is their of alien lifeforms influencing that?
Oh yeah I forgot Lady Gaga. I guess I am wrong.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 03:18:59 AM
This is no different than bestiality. If you think having intercourse with a lower life form, or any other life form for that matter which is not of your nature, wouldn't be a pollutant to you, then that is really appalling. I guess you know a reprobate mystery like the watchers.
Gravock
So my contemptible little man. Are you a lower life form too, Or is it just women?
Mags I truly hope you don't follow this persons 'witness'
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 06:28:02 AM
I choose to worship the Creator and not the creation. If you want to worship the creation (woman), then good luck with that. I find it offensive for your hatred towards God. Also, the first man and woman was made together in the image of God and they were called Man. Adam and Eve was not the first man and woman. They were not made in the image of God. They were of a resurrection of a dying race. The creation of man in Genesis 1:26-31 is not the same creation story of man in Genesis 2:7-23. Adam was formed from the dust of the ground and Eve was created from Adam's rib. They were created separate and not together as is found in Genesis 1. They only became like God when their eyes were opened after eating from the forbidden tree in the middle of the garden. They were not physically blind. When they ate from the forbidden tree, then their pineal gland or third eye was fully opened and activated which allowed their spiritual body to ascend into the heavens and gain knowledge. This happens when we undergo a physical death. God said they would surely die if they ate from the tree, and they did. Then God made garments of skin and banished them from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
Matt 6:22 The lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Gravock
And this, my friends, is why theists are ridiculed.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 06:28:02 AMGod said they would surely die if they ate from the tree, and they did. Then God made garments of skin and banished them from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
Here is a question: Did God explained to them what the notion of death is, since if they were the first on the planet, they never had seen or experienced it or understand it. Furthermore, if God even explained to them what it is (but the bible doesn't mention that) the way the bible was written (where is as many interpretations of the bible as many denominations in the world) then what they really understood? Thus, the punishment is highly controversial. (The bible attempts to show God as a fair judge).
There are some interpretators of the bible who say that there were other people outside of the paradise. Then, here is a question: how do I know whose descendant I am? To those from the Paradise or those other ones? (The punishment refers to those from Paradise.)
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
So my contemptible little man. Are you a lower life form too, Or is it just women?
Mags I truly hope you don't follow this persons 'witness'
It says in the scriptures Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, so of course I would be considered a lower life form. Man isn't higher than women, we are of the same race. The men have their role, and the women have their roles. You can't have two people in a household making contrary decisions on the same issues and expect it to stand. A house which is divided can not stand.
Gravock
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 01, 2012, 10:24:33 AM
And this, my friends, is why theists are ridiculed.
Show me exactly where I'm wrong according to scripture?
Genesis 1:26-31
1.) Male and female created together. They were both called Man.
2.) Does not say God formed man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
3.) Man was created in the image of God, thus he did not need to receive the breath of life into his nostrils to become a living being.
4.) No tree was forbidden. They were told they could eat from all seed bearing plants on the face of the earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it for food.
5.) Was told to be fruitful and to multiply. This is the first race of mankind.
Genesis 2:7-23:
1.) Male and female created separately. The man was called Adam, and Adam named his wife Eve. (Contrary to Genesis 1, if both are the same creation story of mankind)
2.) God formed the man from the dust of the earth and the man became a living being after God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Eve was taken from the man's rib.
3.) Does not say man was created in the image of God. Probably because he was formed from the dust of the earth, unlike in Genesis 1.
4.) They could not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden or they would die. (Contrary to Genesis 1, if both are the same creation story of mankind).
5.) Was told to be fruitful and to multiply. This is the second race of mankind.
If there appears to be a contradiction in scripture, then it's because your interpretation of the scriptures is not correct. When we change our interpretation of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 where they reflect a different creation story of mankind, then there is no contradiction in scripture between Genesis 1 and Genesis 2.
After God made a woman from Adam's rib, then it declares, for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. For what reason? Was it because the first female mentioned in Genesis 1 didn't return to the man after she was raped by him? According to the midrash using ancient manuscripts not found in the traditional biblical cannon, this is what happened. After Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree, then God said to the woman, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing, with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Why would God increase her pains in childbearing? Why would God tell the woman her desire will be for her husband? Wasn't she faithful to him? If not, who was she unfaithful with? Why did God say to the serpent, "You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between your offspring and hers"? Apparently the serpent was upright and stood as a man before this happened.
Who did Cain marry? This is easily answered. He married a woman from the offspring of the first race of mankind mentioned it Genesis 1. Try to answer this question by wrongly assuming both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are of the same creation account.
Gravock
Quote from: Qwert on November 01, 2012, 10:27:04 AM
Here is a question: Did God explained to them what the notion of death is, since if they were the first on the planet, they never had seen or experienced it or understand it. Furthermore, if God even explained to them what it is (but the bible doesn't mention that) the way the bible was written (where is as many interpretations of the bible as many denominations in the world) then what they really understood? Thus, the punishment is highly controversial. (The bible attempts to show God as a fair judge).
There are some interpretators of the bible who say that there were other people outside of the paradise. Then, here is a question: how do I know whose descendant I am? To those from the Paradise or those other ones? (The punishment refers to those from Paradise.)
After Adam and Eve's disobedience, they were also banished from the Garden of Eden (Paradise). We are all descendants of those who came from Paradise. The Garden of Eden and Paradise literally means to be transferred from one location to another. In other words, Adam and Eve were moved from one land to another land. After their physical death, God gave them further instructions and reminded them of there prior consequences in order for them not to make the same mistake again, then he banished them from the Garden of Eden. This probably means reincarnation, since they had died as a consequence for their disobedience. This same pattern occurs all throughout Genesis. Cain was moved to a different land. The names of Abram and Sarai was changed to Abraham and Sarah after God moved Abram to a different land. There are many more examples. God increasing the womans pains in childbearing could have been a natural consequence of the woman mingling with an outside race where there were very slight genetic differences between the two. This is speculation, but I assure you the woman new the exact reason why her pains were increased during childbearing (it was a natural consequence of what she did, and it shouldn't be looked upon as a punishment by God). There are only consequences for not following God's advice. It's the same as if you tell your child not to touch the hot stove. Would you consider your child being burnt by a stove, either a punishment for his disobedience or a consequence in not following your advice? God's commandments to us, is for our own protection. Step outside of his umbrella, and we are no longer protected and we open ourselves up to consequences.
Gravock
DNA proves an Intelligent Designer (God) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFLk9JS9oZ8). Nature can produce patterns, but it doesn't produce information with content. If we received a sequence of prime numbers from outer space, then we would conclude the prime numbers were from an intelligent life form. DNA stores about 62,000,000,000 times as much data per cubic millimeter as a modern hard drive! In addition to this, DNA double helix intrinsically codes for excited state Hoogsteen base pairs (http://blog.drwile.com/?p=4013) as a means of expanding its structural complexity beyond that which can be achieved based on Watson–Crick base-pairing so as to store even more information. It is statistically impossibe for nature to randomly produce such a huge amount of information with content, and to organize all of this content together into a single small package!
Gravock
An Atheist Who Rejects Materialist Neo-Darwinism (http://blog.drwile.com/?p=8857)! The theory of evolution is far from being scientifically correct.
Gravock
Dr. Schroeder's argument (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzetqYev_AI) is so powerful that it influenced one of the worlds leading atheist, Antony Flew, to accept the reality of an infinitely intelligent God. When one takes all of the evidence as a whole, then the evidence points to a Creator. Most of the comments by atheists are positve to this video.
Gerald L. Schroeder - Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Schroeder)
Gravock
Is it possible the non-believers are partially or totally disconnected from a higher state of awareness? Maybe the disconnect is due to the calcification of their pineal gland (third eye) (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=calcified+pineal+gland&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPineal_gland&ei=KD95ULjnN-Pr0gGQ0YDYCw&usg=AFQjCNGG3BjUaCzb20vmjx1rU05aizzwSg). Calcification has been shown in one small study to correlate with the accumulation of fluoride. Maybe this is one reason why TPTB are heavily flouridating our water suppy. There appears to be a correlation between an increase in calcification of the pineal gland with an increase in atheism. According to ancient beliefs, the pineal gland is said to become a direct line into higher states of consciousness (http://www.mindpowernews.com/PinealGland.htm). I think this is a fair question, because there is such a disconnect between believers and non-believers over the same evidence.
Gravock
David Wilcock explains some of the most important discoveries about the pineal gland, which is in the human brain, which are detailed at length in his seminal new book and masterpiece "Source Field Investigations". This is cutting edge science and spirituality that will change the world for the better when it is fully understood. From mental, physical and spiritual health, the functioning of the pineal gland is critical.
David Wilcock - Source Field Investigations: The Pineal Gland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igxygG5MWiw) (60 likes, 2 dislikes)
Gravock
Pineal Gland, DMT, Vatican Secrets ( Pine Cone Symbolism ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LALNDEYaWk0) (934 likes, 27 dislikes)
Life After Death - Pineal Gland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4z4p-yAqw) (21 likes, 0 dislikes)
Gravock
Ever heard of the anthropic principle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle)
If the universe wasn't 'fine tuned' for life we wouldn't be here to observe it? In other words the only reason this discussion is occurring is because we are here. We don't know how many past universes there has been that failed to engender life, we do not know how many current universes there are that engender life, assuming you ascribe to the multiverse view, of which I don't.
Stating that one or another person converted to Christianity or any other religion does not make the argument for god stronger. it is obvious religion is a powerful drug. A psychological drug.
Using your own arguments then the fact that Einstein rejected a personal Deity should prove there isn't a god. Yes I know you'll bring up the "God doesn't play dice" comment. but that comment is often taken totally out of context by the desperate and used to make false claims.
"In a letter to Eric Gutkind dated 3 January 1954, Einstein wrote in German, "For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 06:02:17 PM
Stating that one or another person converted to Christianity or any other religion does not make the argument for god stronger. it is obvious religion is a powerful drug. A psychological drug.
I wasn't trying to make the argument for God stronger by showing how an atheist converted to a theist. I was showing how earthly science is totally wrong in it's theory of evolution, and since this theory is one of the corner stones for most atheists, then it makes their argument against a God much weaker. I then showed how Dr. Schroeder's argument is so powerful and if one takes all of the evidence as a whole, then the evidence points to a Creator.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 06:28:02 AM
I choose to worship the Creator and not the creation. If you want to worship the creation (woman), then good luck with that. I find it offensive for your hatred towards God.
snip...
I don't worship women, I respect them as equals. I do not hate god, how can I hate something I don't believe even exists ?. I don't hate anything, but I do disdain those who perpetuate non truths amongst other things.
Your views on Adam and Eve not being the first humans according to the bible is a view that attempts to cover up the obvious discrepancies in the bible. An apologists view.
http://bible.org/question/was-world-populated-through-incest-or-did-god-create-others-besides-adam-and-eve
The site above rejects that view and states very plainly..
"there is little doubt that Adam's sons and daughters had to have married their own sisters and brothers if the race was to populate the earth, "
This once again brings forward my argument. If people interpret the bible differently. its because their "inner god" the one they all claim shows them the truth in their own beliefs is a different inner god for each person and therefore is nothing more than their own thoughts. with ZERO attribution to one God.
I ask you. as you are a late comer to this discussion. How do you know the bible was written by the hand of God and not the construct of man.?
P.S. if all Christians are the progeny of the incestuous bible it is easy to understand their belief system.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 06:11:29 PM
I wasn't trying to make the argument for God stronger by showing how an atheist converted to a theist. I was showing how earthly science is totally wrong in it's theory of evolution, and since this theory is the corner stone for most atheists, then it makes their argument against a God much weaker.
Gravock
Yes you were, and you were trying to make one persons views more important than the millions of others views. your claim that evolution is totally wrong because of the statements of one person is an example of the selective reasoning used by followers of religion and OU and every other non science and might I add science.
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 06:16:00 PM
Yes you were, and you were trying to make one persons views more important than the millions of others views. your claim that evolution is totally wrong because of the statements of one person is an example of the selective reasoning used by followers of religion and OU and every other non science and might I add science.
No I wasn't. What you're referring to was actually part of the description of the video I posted.
Gravock
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 06:11:39 PM
Your views on Adam and Eve not being the first humans according to the bible is a view that attempts to cover up the obvious discrepancies in the bible. An apologists view.
http://bible.org/question/was-world-populated-through-incest-or-did-god-create-others-besides-adam-and-eve (http://bible.org/question/was-world-populated-through-incest-or-did-god-create-others-besides-adam-and-eve)
The site above rejects that view and states very plainly..
"there is little doubt that Adam's sons and daughters had to have married their own sisters and brothers if the race was to populate the earth, "
I have already shown how their interpretation of the scripture leads to contradictions. In addition to this, Adam and Eve didn't have any daughters at that time for Cain to marry in order for there to be any possibility of incest.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 05:35:06 PM
DNA proves an Intelligent Designer (God). Nature can produce patterns, but it doesn't produce information with content. If we received a sequence of prime numbers from outer space, then we would conclude the prime numbers were from an intelligent life form. DNA stores about 62,000,000,000 times as much data per cubic millimeter as a modern hard drive! In addition to this, DNA double helix intrinsically codes for excited state Hoogsteen base pairs as a means of expanding its structural complexity beyond that which can be achieved based on Watson–Crick base-pairing so as to store even more information. It is statistically impossibe for nature to randomly produce such a huge amount of information with content, and to organize all of this content together into a single small package!
Gravock
Gravock,
you are the first one in a thousand posts that actually have presented a scientifically valid argument in favor for an intelligent design behind our reality. Thank you for a substantial input. And I absolutely agree to such a possibility, personally I am convinced that the phenomenon of consciousness transcends physicality, thus indicating a dynamic matrix beyond "dead matter" theory.
But an intelligent design behind everything does not neccessarily mean it has to be a godlike entity behind it all. It could just as well indicate that universe itself is an eternally evolving living being, going through growth phazes in every big gnab/bang cycle into ever greater levels of consciousness, making all sentient beings in universe into fully active participants in the developement of the design.
There is however nothing whatsoever that indicates the need for any beginning or end in this process, universe could just as well be an eternal process. Only our own conceptual limitations demands for a beginning or an end to things, and this limitation makes the man made construct of a subjective god a temptation to the human mind.
So my respons is: Yes! there is obviously more to it than mere chance. But No! Nothing close to the personalized and limited image of the dogmatic god created by earthly religions. An Intent of which we all are actively part of, yes, there is a high probability that we are all part of the creation of reality, just like the mystics always have proclaimed, an outlook on reality which today have been repeatedly confirmed by quantum physics.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 01, 2012, 06:39:59 PM
Gravock,
you are the first one in a thousand posts that actually have presented a scientifically valid argument in favor for an intelligent design behind our reality. Thank you for a substantial input. And I absolutely agree to such a possibility, personally I am convinced that the phenomenon of consciousness transcends physicality, thus indicating a dynamic matrix beyond "dead matter" theory.
But an intelligent design behind everything does not neccessarily mean it has to be a godlike entity behind it all. It could just as well indicate that universe itself is an eternally evolving living being, going through growth phazes in every big gnab/bang cycle into ever greater levels of consciousness, making all sentient beings in universe into fully active participants in the developement of the design.
There is however nothing whatsoever that indicates the need for any beginning or end in this process, universe could just as well be an eternal process. Only our own conceptual limitations demands for a beginning or an end to things, and this limitation makes the man made construct of a subjective god a temptation to the human mind.
So my respons is: Yes! there is obviously more to it than mere chance. But No! Nothing close to the personalized and limited image of the dogmatic god created by earthly religions. An Intent of which we all are actively part of, yes, there is a high probability that we are all part of the creation of reality, just like the mystics always have proclaimed, an outlook on reality which today have been repeatedly confirmed by quantum physics.
Gwandau
First you say this...
"Only our own conceptual limitations demands for a beginning or an end to things, and this limitation makes the man made construct of a subjective god a temptation to the human mind."
And then you say this..
"Yes! there is obviously more to it than mere chance"
Do you see that the second statement is a reflection of the first?
It is the conceptual limitations of our minds and thinking that gives rise to "obviously more to it" I don't think there is anything obvious about it at all.
Like Mags said we are only just beginning to read the book of the universe. of course he conceitedly tried to imply that somehow we beleive we know it all. Such a joke considering Christian in general
Actually claim to know it all.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 06:35:50 PM
I have already shown how their interpretation of the scripture leads to contradictions. In addition to this, Adam and Eve didn't have any daughters at that time for Cain to marry in order for there to be any possibility of incest.
Gravock
GravityBlock Thank you
You make my point so elegantly!
Yes there reading of the bible differs from yours, which differs from mine which differs from the jews which differs from every flavour of christianity and other bible based religions
So can you tell me how do you know YOUR interpretation is correct? I asked this befoore but you seemed to ignore it. Like Mags and Bruce and Chet and everyone else who has a hard question to ponder?
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 06:57:30 PM
GravityBlock Thank you
You make my point so elegantly!
Yes there reading of the bible differs from yours, which differs from mine which differs from the jews which differs from every flavour of christianity and other bible based religions
So can you tell me how do you know YOUR interpretation is correct? I asked this befoore but you seemed to ignore it. Like Mags and Bruce and Chet and everyone else who has a hard question to ponder?
It doesn't lead to contradictions in other parts of the scripture, it's backed up by the Quran, and other ancient manuscripts, and it answers questions which other interpretations can not. Also, it doesn't lead to incest in order to populate the world. God is unfavorable to this act, it's not supported anywhere else in scripture, and any teachings saying other wise is a false teaching by the adversary. I have studied outside of what was handed down and taught to me, and I have studied how the Hebrew and Greek words have been translated. People do have a tendency to interpret the scripture according to how they would like things to be. I think this is one reason for so many different interpretations along with be narrow or closed minded. Pride is another reason for different interpretations. People don't want to be shown how they are wrong, because they see it as an attack against there own intelligence. Of course, there's always a chance my interpretation isn't totally correct. If you can show me otherwise with a good argument, then I'll gladly reconsider and change my interpretation accordingly. There is only one interpretation which is correct. Seek and a you shall find. Condemnation before investigation is folly. God will confuse the wise with the simplest things of this world. He'll catch the wise in their own craftiness.
Gravock
Geese you guys are Bizzy over here.........
@Chris,
May I have a question please?
Just one [go easy,I'm a little rusty]
Thx
Chet
Ps
I don't want Gravityblocks question {that one's his]
Quote from: ramset on November 01, 2012, 08:05:30 PM
Thx
Chet
Ps
I don't want Gravityblocks question {that one's his]
Actually, the question itself was a bad question, because the statement before the question wrongly implies and suggests my interpretation isn't correct based on there being other interpretations. What came first, then chicken or the egg? This is a bad question, because the question itself wrongly implies one came before the other. The chicken is in the egg, and the egg has the form of a chicken. They came together as one, and not one before the other as the question wrongly implies. Lawyers use this technique.
Gravock
Gravock
I like the way you think ,....I suspect a lot of our problem here is perspective.
As time goes on that will change.
But I suppose ultimately its all in the Link {DNA} Perhaps the purist form of Gods word..........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 07:55:24 PM
It doesn't lead to contradictions in other parts of the scripture, it's backed up by the Quran, and other ancient manuscripts, and it answers questions which other interpretations can not. snip...
Why wouldn't it be backed up by the Quran? The beginings of the bible and the quran can be traced back to a common literary heritage.
I wrote in a previous post.
"Genesis makes no sense, because it is a highly (and badly) edited, cut down version of the Sumerian story of creation and the human lineage that followed it.
The sumerian version of creation, and human history therafter, up till the "great flood" and into contemporary sumerian times, was written nearly 4 thousand years before the judaists hacked it apart and incorporated it into the emerging new tanakh (hebrew bible).
Centuries later, christians decided to acknowledge their hebrew forbears by incorporating most of the tanack into the canonical works that christians were compiling, and which became known as the "old testament" and the "new testament". In line with their own viewpoint, genesis again, lost more of the original plot and meaning, because even the pre-edited hebrew version of the (Sumerian) creation story still hinted at more than one god. A loving, merciful, empathetic one, and an angry, vindictive, spiteful one.
That is totally unacceptable to monotheists like christians, hence the rewrite, which results in more mystery than enlightenment.
It's not just genesis that has been borrowed from the sumerians, but indeed, most of the "old testament" has its roots in ancient sumerian culture. But, as they often say in TV documentaries - "all names and places have been changed to protect the innocent" "
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 07:55:24 PM
It doesn't lead to contradictions in other parts of the scripture, it's backed up by the Quran, and other ancient manuscripts, and it answers questions which other interpretations can not. Also, it doesn't lead to incest in order to populate the world. God is unfavorable to this act, it's not supported anywhere else in scripture, and any teachings saying other wise is a false teaching by the adversary. I have studied outside of what was handed down and taught to me, and I have studied how the Hebrew and Greek words have been translated. People do have a tendency to interpret the scripture according to how they would like things to be. I think this is one reason for so many different interpretations along with be narrow or closed minded. Pride is another reason for different interpretations. People don't want to be shown how they are wrong, because they see it as an attack against there own intelligence. Of course, there's always a chance my interpretation isn't totally correct. If you can show me otherwise with a good argument, then I'll gladly reconsider and change my interpretation accordingly. There is only one interpretation which is correct. Seek and a you shall find. Condemnation before investigation is folly. God will confuse the wise with the simplest things of this world. He'll catch the wise in their own craftiness.
Gravock
I hand it to you a good answer. Not the folly of mags and bruce.
But nonetheless it does not alter the question. Your answer is a matter of interpretation. of perspective. Your first video link that made you look foolish (and still does) has no meaning to it. They found a cracked rock applied their own interpretation to it based on the PRECONCEIVED notions and got the answer they wanted.
Not being a geologist I cannot comment on the cause of the cracking. Although the narrative implied some knowledge of geology there is nothing to verify that. To my mind the secretley leaked video is as about as compelling as the videos of the finding of noahs ark. Which of course is to say not compelling at all.
If I was going to fall for that sort of stuff I would have fallen for erich von danikens video's which by the way were far more compelling. but equally crap.
I am glad you made this statement. its one of my favourite sayings you get christians making "God will confuse the wise with the simplest things of this world. He'll catch the wise in their own craftiness."
Which wise will God confuse?
Scientists?
Philosophers
Christian Scientists
Christian Philosophers
Theists
Theologians
Atheist
Gravityblock
CuriousChris
Chet
Mags
Bruce
We are all wise in our own ways and stupid in others. Does YOUR God specify which. Perhaps its you, perhaps he thinks you are so proud you need to be brought down a peg or two.
And why do such a thing? Is YOUR God deceitful? If he wrote "I am God and I exist" in the seeds of a watermelon (english would be nice but not mandatory) would it hurt his cause.
Is it YOUR Gods aim to make sure at least 75% of all humans who ever lived go to hell. whatever YOUR interpretation of hell is.
Is YOUR God so deceitful and malignant that he would enforce that on his creation?
So yet another question, previously gone unanswered. perhaps you can use your wisdom (provided god is not confusing you) to answer it as others ignore these questions (obviously caused by confusion) and I am sincerley interested in the answer, even if only to point out the inconsistencies in it.
If the Bible was written By God (through man) then surely the writers of the bible (hebrews) should agree with all of the bible. Why then do they reject the new testament? Where does that leave Christians?
Dear Chet
Rather than another post your question separately, I'll ask it here. Another question that has been ignored and one I am interested in finding out the logic behind.
Why did 1/3 of the Angels of heaven choose to follow the angel of Light, Lucifer to hell?
These creature don't suffer from Gods deceit. they know God intimately. surely as Gods (presumed) first creations they knew God was all powerful, they could not win. Why would they follow Lucifer knowing it was a guaranteed hiding?
Is God that bad?
Are angels that dumb?
According to Gravityblock they are a higher form of being than us. that implies they are more intelligent, more knowledgeable, more everything.
Why then did they make this most fundamental mistake?
Or was its God mistake in how he made them? Too much pride perhaps?
HopToad
Excellent post! :)
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 09:39:37 PM
I hand it to you a good answer. Not the folly of mags and bruce.
But nonetheless it does not alter the question. Your answer is a matter of interpretation. of perspective. Your first video link that made you look foolish (and still does) has no meaning to it. They found a cracked rock applied their own interpretation to it based on the PRECONCEIVED notions and got the answer they wanted.
Not being a geologist I cannot comment on the cause of the cracking. Although the narrative implied some knowledge of geology there is nothing to verify that. To my mind the secretley leaked video is as about as compelling as the videos of the finding of noahs ark. Which of course is to say not compelling at all.
If I was going to fall for that sort of stuff I would have fallen for erich von danikens video's which by the way were far more compelling. but equally crap.
I am glad you made this statement. its one of my favourite sayings you get christians making "God will confuse the wise with the simplest things of this world. He'll catch the wise in their own craftiness."
Which wise will God confuse?
Scientists?
Philosophers
Christian Scientists
Christian Philosophers
Theists
Theologians
Atheist
Gravityblock
CuriousChris
Chet
Mags
Bruce
We are all wise in our own ways and stupid in others. Does YOUR God specify which. Perhaps its you, perhaps he thinks you are so proud you need to be brought down a peg or two.
And why do such a thing? Is YOUR God deceitful? If he wrote "I am God and I exist" in the seeds of a watermelon (english would be nice but not mandatory) would it hurt his cause.
Is it YOUR Gods aim to make sure at least 75% of all humans who ever lived go to hell. whatever YOUR interpretation of hell is.
Is YOUR God so deceitful and malignant that he would enforce that on his creation?
So yet another question, previously gone unanswered. perhaps you can use your wisdom (provided god is not confusing you) to answer it as others ignore these questions (obviously caused by confusion) and I am sincerley interested in the answer, even if only to point out the inconsistencies in it.
If the Bible was written By God (through man) then surely the writers of the bible (hebrews) should agree with all of the bible. Why then do they reject the new testament? Where does that leave Christians?
Dear Chet
Rather than another post your question separately, I'll ask it here. Another question that has been ignored and one I am interested in finding out the logic behind.
Why did 1/3 of the Angels of heaven choose to follow the angel of Light, Lucifer to hell?
These creature don't suffer from Gods deceit. they know God intimately. surely as Gods (presumed) first creations they knew God was all powerful, they could not win. Why would they follow Lucifer knowing it was a guaranteed hiding?
Is God that bad?
Are angels that dumb?
According to Gravityblock they are a higher form of being than us. that implies they are more intelligent more, knowledgeable, more everything.
Why then did they make this most fundamental mistake?
Or was its God mistake in how he made them? Too much pride perhaps?
HopToad
Excellent post! :)
"Not the folly of mags and bruce."
Surly you jest. Where do you see that we would not agree with what GB has posted? ;)
You are just an instigator. ;) And a fool.
"Your answer is a matter of interpretation. of perspective."
And your answers are from men, of whom you would not trust to write the Bible. Fool.
"We are all wise in our own ways and stupid in others. Does YOUR God specify which."
Yes he does and he says you are a fool. ;)
"perhaps he thinks you are so proud you need to be brought down a peg or two."
The way I see it you are running out of pegs. ;)
"Is it YOUR Gods aim to make sure at least 75% of all humans who ever lived go to hell. "
Where did you get that number? ??? ::) Or are you telling some of your own conjured fairy tales? ::) Just off the top of your head?
"Why did 1/3 of the Angels of heaven choose to follow the angel of Light, Lucifer to hell?"
Because they were just like you. ;) Whether you know it or not. ;)
"Why would they follow Lucifer knowing it was a guaranteed hiding?"
Huh?
"Is God that bad?
Are angels that dumb?"
God gave us free will. Are some of us dumb? ;)
"According to Gravityblock they are a higher form of being than us. that implies they are more intelligent more, knowledgeable, more everything."
I can see how this might offend you as you believe you know everything. ;) Even the smartest of us do the stupidest things at times. Though I dont see you in that category. ;)
"Why then did they make this most fundamental mistake?"
Look in the mirror. Again, he gave them and you free will. Did you read anything? Im hearing a lot of questions from you that you should know already, though you claim to be well read. ;) Too bad you missed SOO much. ::) You are a fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 09:39:37 PM
If the Bible was written By God (through man) then surely the writers of the bible (hebrews) should agree with all of the bible. Why then do they reject the new testament? Where does that leave Christians?
That leaves us with Jews for Jesus. ;D Incase you havent heard. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 04:14:28 PM
After Adam and Eve's disobedience...
I understand, this answer suggests there were no others behind the Paradise. Thus, their descendants enjoyed incest.
Now about the tree: God told them, there will be consequences of their disobedience. But God knew exactly their future reaction, since it's said that God knows everything, including future. And since God was their "engineer", he knew exactly how and when it will occur. He knew that their curiosity (which he gave them) will become their obsession which will become a torture; a never ending torture, since they "enjoyed" immortality. Thus, their "Paradise" become their "HELL" even before they committed their disobedience (there is high probability they committed this deliberately, just to stop their never ending torture resulting from this obsession). And you call this Paradise?
Thus, I see the story of Genesis as a fairy tell, good for fanatics.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 01, 2012, 10:35:11 PM
God gave us free will. Are some of us dumb? ;)
free-will-is-an-illusion
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/free-will-is-an-illusion_b_1562533.html
Quote from: Qwert on November 01, 2012, 11:22:20 PM
I understand, this answer suggests there were no others behind the Paradise. Thus, their descendants enjoyed incest.
Now about the tree: God told them, there will be consequences of their disobedience. But God knew exactly their future reaction, since it's said that God knows everything, including future. And since God was their "engineer", he knew exactly how and when it will occur. He knew that their curiosity (which he gave them) will become their obsession which will become a torture; a never ending torture, since they "enjoyed" immortality. Thus, their "Paradise" become their "HELL" even before they committed their disobedience (there is high probability they committed this deliberately, just to stop their never ending torture resulting from this obsession). And you call this Paradise?
Thus, I see the story of Genesis as a fairy tell, good for fanatics.
Well being that God does know the future, is it hard to understand that history has to have a beginning?
If you were to create some self replicating robots, and you gave them the ability to have intelligence and free will, how would their life begin? How would you have their life begin?
Would you just put them in a sealed box with no light, no nothing? No rules, no interacting with them?
Lets say we did make these robots with free will. Say some of them go rogue and dont do as you wish them to do or become. What would you do with the rogue bots? How would you treat them compared to the bots that 'believe' your wishes are best? Remember, free will bots.
Or would this change your mind about giving them free will once you see that some go rogue?
Im sure you would care about all your bots(creations). You probably would be disappointed in the rogue bots. Especially when the rogue bots begin to bully the 'believer' bots for not going rogue.
In the end, the bots are a testing session for their free will electronic minds or soul if you will, to pick the best of the best for the bigger final design bots you have planned for the future.
Would you choose to put rogue souls in those final bot designs?
Magzimus Leviticus
Interesting how the faithers in this thread resort to name calling to support their (non) argument.
Also interesting is the propensity for judgement of others - in spite of their own christ who said "judge not"
Quote from: Qwert on November 01, 2012, 11:38:16 PM
free-will-is-an-illusion
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/free-will-is-an-illusion_b_1562533.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/free-will-is-an-illusion_b_1562533.html)
Ahh, more belief in scientists that you would not trust to write the Bible. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 01, 2012, 10:35:11 PM
"Not the folly of mags and bruce."
Surly you jest. Where do you see that we would not agree with what GB has posted? ;)
You are just an instigator. ;) And a fool.
Look in the mirror. Again, he gave them and you free will. Did you read anything? Im hearing a lot of questions from you that you should know already, though you claim to be well read. ;) Too bad you missed SOO much. ::) You are a fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
No Mags, I don't jest.
You started well but descended into the above tripe. On the other hand gravity started really poorly but actually improved into a worthwhile adversary. Gravity actually made sense and was not attempting to dodge the questions he could not fathom.
Bruce just ranted. with no real content worth considering.
You did try and some stuff you said was worth reading, but by comparison Gravity for someone who believes that silly video actually made sense to me. he was wrong but I can follow his logic.
To the Angels...
When he gave the angels free will did he make them dumb as well?. Or is your understanding of "free will" as the desire to do wrong?
Why would a perfect God where no thing is unseen, make a creature man or angel that would fail. Why would a JUST God create a creature where he knows he will have to punish them by abandoning them or put them to the fires of hell for eternity, whichever hell you happen to believe in. Is that a just God? Is that Perfection?
A just and perfect God who knew no matter what he did it would fail. Because either he gave them free will or he made them automatons would choose to stay alone in the nothing. he would not could not banish the majority of his creation to hell.
Or is Gods love different? does God only love himself and therefore his only intention is to create beings to worship him without reservation. Thus he has succeeded with you and failed with me. You see I am an individual. as an individual God doesn't want me as I am not going to worship a vain and self infatuated God.
And you failed to follow my logic that free will and miracles don't coexist well. So when you want miracles you bring them forth when you want free will you do likewise.
You call me a fool and yet believe without reservation children's stories. I ask who is the real fool?
Quote from: hoptoad on November 01, 2012, 11:52:46 PM
Interesting how the faithers in this thread resort to name calling to support their (non) argument.
Also interesting is the propensity for judgement of others - in spite of their own christ who said "judge not"
Really? The Bible tells us what a fool is. It uses the word 'fool'. If the shoe fits...
Its not a judgement. It is a description. ;) If you dont like it, then dont choose to be one. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 02, 2012, 12:00:13 AM
Ahh, more belief in scientists that you would not trust to write the Bible. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
I would not trust any man to write a bible. even if he claimed to do it at gods direction. I simply would not believe him.
I have said this before as well so perhaps it may help you understand my psyche. "I trust science, I do not trust scientists"
If you do not follow my meaning, what I am saying is science as a whole. The collection of the works of many is a reasonable source of trust, individually scientists are but human. they have all the failings of a human, including pride, ego, they make mistakes etc.
This one is laughable...
"Why did 1/3 of the Angels of heaven choose to follow the angel of Light, Lucifer to hell?"
Because they were just like you. (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fwink.gif&hash=0d9aacf9391b7fda4adbf7cd091f687bfd283341) Whether you know it or not. (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Fwink.gif&hash=0d9aacf9391b7fda4adbf7cd091f687bfd283341)
So the angels in heaven never met God. never had any proof of his existence. only had the claims made by other angels. Never spent any time in heaven.
They were just like me?
According to your theory. I am just like an Angel have seen god and have seen through god. Yeah I guess you are right.
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 12:04:27 AM
No Mags, I don't jest.
You started well but descended into the above tripe. On the other hand gravity started really poorly but actually improved into a worthwhile adversary. Gravity actually made sense and was not attempting to dodge the questions he could not fathom.
Bruce just ranted. with no real content worth considering.
You did try and some stuff you said was worth reading, but by comparison Gravity for someone who believes that silly video actually made sense to me. he was wrong but I can follow his logic.
To the Angels...
When he gave the angels free will did he make them dumb as well?. Or is your understanding of "free will" as the desire to do wrong?
Why would a perfect God where no thing is unseen, make a creature man or angel that would fail. Why would a JUST God create a creature where he knows he will have to punish them by abandoning them or put them to the fires of hell for eternity, whichever hell you happen to believe in. Is that a just God? Is that Perfection?
A just and perfect God who knew no matter what he did it would fail. Because either he gave them free will or he made them automatons would choose to stay alone in the nothing. he would not could not banish the majority of his creation to hell.
Or is Gods love different? does God only love himself and therefore his only intention is to create beings to worship him without reservation. Thus he has succeeded with you and failed with me. You see I am an individual. as an individual God doesn't want me as I am not going to worship a vain and self infatuated God.
And you failed to follow my logic that free will and miracles don't coexist well. So when you want miracles you bring them forth when you want free will you do likewise.
You call me a fool and yet believe without reservation children's stories. I ask who is the real fool?
"You started well but descended into the above tripe."
Well I dont want to waste too much time on your garbage. ;)
Yay, GB wins!! Like I respect your logic. ::)
"Bruce just ranted. with no real content worth considering."
Yet you reply to his posts. Hypocrite? ;) Or you just couldnt let them go unanswered?
Your doing so well here. ???
"To the Angels...
When he gave the angels free will did he make them dumb as well?. Or is your understanding of "free will" as the desire to do wrong?
"
Dumb as well? And you are perfect I suppose. Do we have free will? Do you have free will? Are you dumb? Do you know somebody that is dumb? Are you saying that you have free will and your dumb friend doesnt have the free will to do dumb things?
You know nothing.
"Why would a perfect God where no thing is unseen, make a creature man or angel that would fail. Why would a JUST God create a creature where he knows he will have to punish them by abandoning them or put them to the fires of hell for eternity, whichever hell you happen to believe in. Is that a just God? Is that Perfection?
"
Here you show that you do not know what free will is. Nuff said there. You act like you are testing me by asking 'dumb' questions. ;) Foolishness.
Lets settle this part right here. God does what he does and I do not question him, for he is God. So save your Nimrod questions for someone that is foolish enough to give you an involved wrong answer.
"A just and perfect God who knew no matter what he did it would fail. Because either he gave them free will or he made them automatons would choose to stay alone in the nothing. he would not could not banish the majority of his creation to hell."
Question all you want. You said you read the Bible. If you did then you know where I stand. So cut the loaded questions.
And there you go again, thinking you can make the rules for God to live by. Reminds me of Lucifer. Yea, thats the ticket. ;) But you wouldnt be able to notice that connection. ;)
"Or is Gods love different? does God only love himself and therefore his only intention is to create beings to worship him without reservation. Thus he has succeeded with you and failed with me. You see I am an individual. as an individual God doesn't want me as I am not going to worship a vain and self infatuated God."
Just like Lucifer would say. ;) He has taught you well.
"And you failed to follow my logic that free will and miracles don't coexist well. So when you want miracles you bring them forth when you want free will you do likewise."
Follow your logic? haha. fool. Just because you believe that free will and miracles dont coexist doesnt make it a fact that hey dont coexist. No 'clear' logic that I can see. That logic is your free will doing as you wish. It doesnt mean that you are right, no matter how you wish to twist it. ;)
"You call me a fool and yet believe without reservation children's stories. I ask who is the real fool?"
Thats your 'opinion'. Thats your guess. Now thats what I call a fool, making up stuff to benefit your case. Which means you dont really have a case if you have to make up circumstanctial fake facts.
Again, you are the fool, and you will recognize it one day, dead or alive, which ever comes first.
And save your commentary on how and when I 'choose' to post. If your post is mostly speculation, then I may not have much to say. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 02, 2012, 12:05:46 AM
Really? The Bible tells us what a fool is. It uses the word 'fool'. If the shoe fits...
Its not a judgement. It is a description. ;) If you dont like it, then dont choose to be one. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
It is a judgmental description. And you're still ignoring your own christ who told you not to judge.
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 12:11:24 AM
I would not trust any man to write a bible. even if he claimed to do it at gods direction. I simply would not believe him.
I have said this before as well so perhaps it may help you understand my psyche. "I trust science, I do not trust scientists"
If you do not follow my meaning, what I am saying is science as a whole. The collection of the works of many is a reasonable source of trust, individually scientists are but human. they have all the failings of a human, including pride, ego, they make mistakes etc.
This one is laughable...
"Why did 1/3 of the Angels of heaven choose to follow the angel of Light, Lucifer to hell?"
Because they were just like you. (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Whether you know it or not. (http://www.overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So the angels in heaven never met God. never had any proof of his existence. only had the claims made by other angels. Never spent any time in heaven.
They were just like me?
According to your theory. I am just like an Angel have seen god and have seen through god. Yeah I guess you are right.
"I would not trust any man to write a bible. even if he claimed to do it at gods direction. I simply would not believe him.
I have said this before as well so perhaps it may help you understand my psyche. "I trust science, I do not trust scientists""
Lol, now your showing your true colors. ;) You believe the science that was written by scientists you dont trust. ::) Do you see 'my' logic there? ;) If thats smart, I should be really scared. ;) How does that big toe taste? ;)
"If you do not follow my meaning, what I am saying is science as a whole. The collection of the works of many is a reasonable source of trust, individually scientists are but human. they have all the failings of a human, including pride, ego, they make mistakes etc."
Again, how does the foot taste? You 'trust' the collection of works written by people you dont trust. Maybe its late and your just tired. ;)
"
(you said)
This one is laughable...
"Why did 1/3 of the Angels of heaven choose to follow the angel of Light, Lucifer to hell?"
(I said)
'Because they were just like you. '
'Whether you know it or not. '
(then you said)
"So the angels in heaven never met God. never had any proof of his existence. only had the claims made by other angels. Never spent any time in heaven.
They were just like me?" "
You didnt read the Bible. You may know some parts, but you dont know it enough to say anything about it really. Your last statement (then you said) is speculation followed by a question. Twist all you want.
"According to your theory. I am just like an Angel have seen god and have seen through god. Yeah I guess you are right."
I have no idea what you are talking about. Never said I had a theory. Again, making stuff up as you go.
Ok, whats next to come out of that imagination you have there? ;) And you say we are making things up. :o Look at all the fiction you produce. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Magluvin, are you sure you refer here to the right quote? Read my post again.
edit
Quote from: Magluvin on November 01, 2012, 11:51:56 PM
If you were to create some self replicating robots, and you gave them the ability to have intelligence and free will, how would their life begin? How would you have their life begin?
If I were to create that, is quite different story: I do not know the future!
Quote from: Qwert on November 02, 2012, 01:34:49 AM
Magluvin, are you sure you refer here to the right quote? Read my post again.
edit
If I were to create that, is quite different story: I do not know the future!
All that robot stuff just came to me while I was writing it. I dont know if it came out all that well, but im sure you get the idea.
What God has planned for us is not known. If you could see and know God and he said that we must not try to figure out his plan, would you try anyway? Apple anyone? ;)
Some would. But probably not as many as would if God wasnt around much. ;) him not physically being around allows for more natural free will to happen. Infact there are times that I feel that what CC said about 75%, might be in the ball park.
The robot idea was just to relate to how we might do it if we had a plan to filter free willed souls. We would know that free will can go any which way. So if we were looking to only keep the robot souls that had desired characteristics, what would be the best way of going about it?
Lets say you are the 'creator' of these robots. Should they fear you in order to get them to perform to your criteria? With free will some would be as Lucifer and reject you to your face. Is that a keeper? ;)
Im tired. Its 2 am. Hope that made a bit of sense.
Mags
And the apple bit. I know it wasnt necessarily an apple in the original texts. ;)
Mags
Quote from: hoptoad on November 02, 2012, 12:53:11 AM
It is a judgmental description. And you're still ignoring your own christ who told you not to judge.
Its funny the nonbeliever judge using the Bible in their favor.
The Bible says that people like you that preach against God are fools. In a way, that puts you in a class of people, the fools. ;) And its just so that others might know when they come here, whom they are dealing with. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 02, 2012, 01:25:22 AM
"I would not trust any man to write a bible. even if he claimed to do it at gods direction. I simply would not believe him.
I have said this before as well so perhaps it may help you understand my psyche. "I trust science, I do not trust scientists""
Lol, now your showing your true colors. ;) You believe the science that was written by scientists you dont trust. ::) Do you see 'my' logic there? ;) If thats smart, I should be really scared. ;) How does that big toe taste? ;)
"If you do not follow my meaning, what I am saying is science as a whole. The collection of the works of many is a reasonable source of trust, individually scientists are but human. they have all the failings of a human, including pride, ego, they make mistakes etc."
Again, how does the foot taste? You 'trust' the collection of works written by people you dont trust. Maybe its late and your just tired. ;)
"
(you said)
This one is laughable...
"Why did 1/3 of the Angels of heaven choose to follow the angel of Light, Lucifer to hell?"
(I said)
'Because they were just like you. '
'Whether you know it or not. '
(then you said)
"So the angels in heaven never met God. never had any proof of his existence. only had the claims made by other angels. Never spent any time in heaven.
They were just like me?" "
You didnt read the Bible. You may know some parts, but you dont know it enough to say anything about it really. Your last statement (then you said) is speculation followed by a question. Twist all you want.
"According to your theory. I am just like an Angel have seen god and have seen through god. Yeah I guess you are right."
I have no idea what you are talking about. Never said I had a theory. Again, making stuff up as you go.
Ok, whats next to come out of that imagination you have there? ;) And you say we are making things up. :o Look at all the fiction you produce. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
You are showing your inability to follow simple logic. but oh well I'll try again
I don't trust any scientists individually. I trust science as a collective. Individual mistakes are smeared out by the collective, its called peer review and the scientific method. If you don't understand that I cannot help. I am sure you do but are playing children's games, so be it.
Oh My you got me about bruce. I try to answer Bruce when he is not ranting so much. sometimes its worth commenting on, but mostly its a rant. as yours are descending into.
Yeah I did read the bible, but I'll happily admit I am rusty after 30 years, its not so fresh anymore. I'll look up what I need to know but I don't need to recite it verse for verse.
YOU claimed I am like an angel and angels are like me (your theory), I suppose you can provide a reference? But be that as it may, I was commenting on your apparent lack of ability to follow simple logic. I said
Angels Know God. not just "believe" they do as in your case. They look unto him, They reside in heaven (when not wandering highways), They are most unlike me and you, just on the basis of experience alone, They are as far as I am aware immortal.
Gravity claims they are superior and we are just as animals to them. So obviously you do not agree with gravity or you don't mind flip flopping as it suits. Of course Gravity says the bible shows Angels are capable of lust and immoral deeds (beastiality), I for one believe him.
They cannot be just like me purely because...
I have never met god, resided in heaven and looked into his face. BUT if angels existed and I was an angel and I looked upon God. Then I would require no proof of his existence, I would have it. Therefore I would not be so foolish as to take up with Lucifer. Perhaps you might if Lucifers argument was sufficiently persuasive, and you "wanted to believe it".
You have completely and utterly failed in your attempt to explain why 1/3 of the Angels would choose to do something so obviously not in their own interest.That is why I say you have descended to ranting. your response makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps Chet has more insight than you. I await his answer.
I said before I once had high hopes for you. that you would mount a logical defence. that I'd enjoy sparring with you. But you didnt, when it got to hard you simply avoid answers or drop one line meaningless (flippant) responses like.
Quote'Because they were just like you. Whether you know it or not. '
Bruce_TPU in case you are wondering why I call your comments rants. It is because your logic is circular. As often is Gravities. Which is to say you claim the proof of god is god. You must believe in God before you can believe in God, A more elongated version of this circular logic is "God wrote the bible therefore the bible is true and we know God exists because he is in the bible".
That just does not make sense.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 02, 2012, 02:25:23 AM
Its funny the nonbeliever judge using the Bible in their favor.
The Bible says that people like you that preach against God are fools. In a way, that puts you in a class of people, the fools. ;) And its just so that others might know when they come here, whom they are dealing with. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
And you're still ignoring your own christ. I have not preached against your god. I have in no way denigrated it, or your beliefs.
I will state again in simple terms so you can understand. I don't believe in your god, but I have never attempted to dissuade you from your beliefs. Now how does that translate into preaching against god?
You're very good at segways, and very poor in humility.
You claim to follow christ. If so then do as your christ says. Be humble and do not judge.
If you are not prepared to follow your own god's directions, you shouldn't be surprised that non believers aren't either.
You seem to want to usurp your own god's authority by acting as judge on its behalf.
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 03:06:14 AM
snip...
That just does not make sense.
Within the circle it makes perfect sense.
Here's some circular logic and self fulfilling prophecies to ponder.
"The world will end tomorrow, unless it doesn't." or "On Tuesday it will be cloudy with rain, unless it's sunny and dry all day."
or
Rule 1. I am the boss.
Rule 2. The boss is always right, for further information refer to rule 1.
Rule 3. In the event of confusion over rule 1, refer to rule 2.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 01, 2012, 05:35:06 PM
DNA proves an Intelligent Designer (God) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFLk9JS9oZ8). Nature can produce patterns, but it doesn't produce information with content. If we received a sequence of prime numbers from outer space, then we would conclude the prime numbers were from an intelligent life form. DNA stores about 62,000,000,000 times as much data per cubic millimeter as a modern hard drive! In addition to this, DNA double helix intrinsically codes for excited state Hoogsteen base pairs (http://blog.drwile.com/?p=4013) as a means of expanding its structural complexity beyond that which can be achieved based on Watson–Crick base-pairing so as to store even more information. It is statistically impossibe for nature to randomly produce such a huge amount of information with content, and to organize all of this content together into a single small package!
Gravock
Perfect find, Gravock. Why God needs imperfect bible which is interpreted differently as many times as many are denominations, if there is other perfect means of communication? And this imperfect bible does not mention DNA or even does not mention that there exists such system in all living organisms. Those who wrote the bible send us an information: the perfect, infallible, God made some mistakes during his creation and since there does not exist something called EVOLUTION, those mistakes are IRREVERSIBLE. Thus, to fix those mistakes, he made another mistake creating imperfect bible.
edit
the idea/purpose of the bible is to correct imperfect world created by perfect god.
edit
another find: since DNA changes forever with each experience in life of a body, this implies that there must exist EVOLUTION: evolution means change. The guy in the above link implies that DNA fits perfectly to the religious teachings. Really? It does not fit to the teachings that evolution does not exist.
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 01, 2012, 09:39:37 PM
I am glad you made this statement. its one of my favourite sayings you get christians making "God will confuse the wise with the simplest things of this world. He'll catch the wise in their own craftiness."
Which wise will God confuse?
Scientists?
Philosophers
Christian Scientists
Christian Philosophers
Theists
Theologians
Atheist
Gravityblock
CuriousChris
Chet
Mags
Bruce
It refers to worldly wisdom.
Gravock
Faithers,
Why do you regard it a virtue to be obedient?
Only a fool is obedient.
I bet you want kids to be undiscriminally obedient to their parents. To me that is teaching kids to be fools. Virtue to me is raising kids that question everything, including your own orders and decisions. This creates creative and thinking individuals and also makes yourself as a parent always strive to back up what you say with valid arguments.
Blind obedience is unhealthy, no matter who you obey, may it be a god or your parent or anyone trying to control you.
In this regard the angel of light, Lucifer, is the only sane guy in the court of the strange god of yours. As far as I can see, there is really nothing wrong with Lucifer in this regard, he is just a fellow with high integrity and enough guts to question the rigid system trying to control him.
I dont believe in this illogical and mentally instabile religious system of yours, but if I did, I would definitely have chosen the company of Lucifer, since he seems to be the only guy over there with enough balls to stand up for freedom.
Who are you really, sheep of your god, who have succumbed to blind obedience and call us fools? Sheep are stupid. Have you seen sheep getting scared? They run randomly in any direction the herd happens to take, no matter were the first sheep goes, the other follows.
You should not bow your head to anyone, this is just conditioning induced through millenia by your human leaders, using your need for a god to relieve you from responsibility.
Stop bowing your head!
Stand straight and open minded!
Question everything, especially the ones who tries to rule you.
Jesus did not die for anyones sins, you poor sheep! Wake up!
We do not owe anyone anything to be born here on earth and live! Its for free! Enjoy it like a child!
Be curious! Ask questions! Question everything!
LIVE!
Gwandau
@CuriousChris and all atheists:
Here's two simple questions.
1.) Is it possible for a photon to be observed more than once without the observation itself destroying the photon? In other-words, can the information carried by a photon be transferred hundreds of times to a physical system without being lost?
2.) According to the answer of the first question, wouldn't a god who then gives rise to omniscience by demanding the existence of the position information of matter cause the collapse of all wave functions in the universe? The bonds of all matter would break and everything would be destroyed?
Gravock
Quote from: Qwert on November 02, 2012, 09:13:12 AM
Perfect find, Gravock. Why God needs imperfect bible which is interpreted differently as many times as many are denominations, if there is other perfect means of communication? And this imperfect bible does not mention DNA or even does not mention that there exists such system in all living organisms. Those who wrote the bible send us an information: the perfect, infallible, God made some mistakes during his creation and since there does not exist something called EVOLUTION, those mistakes are IRREVERSIBLE. Thus, to fix those mistakes, he made another mistake creating imperfect bible.
edit
the idea/purpose of the bible is to correct imperfect world created by perfect god.
edit
another find: since DNA changes forever with each experience in life of a body, this implies that there must exist EVOLUTION: evolution means change. The guy in the above link implies that DNA fits perfectly to the religious teachings. Really? It does not fit to the teachings that evolution does not exist.
DNA is the GREAT PROOF of the evidence of God! I even posted a link a few pages back from one of the founding DNA Scientists, who became a believer in Jesus Christ as a RESULT of his work on human DNA.
You all call black white, up is called down, left is called right, bad is called good. The more that I hear from you atheists, the more it builds my faith and the more THANKFUL I am to my Heavenly Father, for revealing his son to me by his Holy Spirit. For it is certain that FAITH is a miracle, a gift from God. Listening to all of you all, and it is like the sound of grey noise after a bit. A big pile of jumbled confusion, layered upon a bed of dung entitled, "man's wisdom".
Open your heart Qwert, the Holy Spirit is calling you back home. Faith first, then comes the evidence/experience. This IS God's way!
Peace to you,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 05:49:15 PM
DNA is the GREAT PROOF of the evidence of God! I even posted a link a few pages back from one of the founding DNA Scientists, who became a believer in Jesus Christ as a RESULT of his work on human DNA.
Do I say anything different? I say that your teachings are incorrect. To those who say that Evolution does not exist: DNA is a proof toward evolution.
edit
thus, creation is continuing. Creation did not stop at the seventh day.
Quote from: Gwandau on November 02, 2012, 05:12:34 PM
Faithers,
Why do you regard it a virtue to be obedient?
Only a fool is obedient.
I bet you want kids to be undiscriminally obedient to their parents. To me that is teaching kids to be fools. Virtue to me is raising kids that question everything, including your own orders and decisions. This creates creative and thinking individuals and also makes yourself as a parent always strive to back up what you say with valid arguments.
Blind obedience is unhealthy, no matter who you obey, may it be a god or your parent or anyone trying to control you.
We follow Christ because we Love him. We obey him because we love him. If any man says that he loves Christ and does not the things that he says, then that man is a liar and the truth is not in him. You are also obedient! You are a slave! You are obedient to the lusts of you flesh, the lusts of the eye and the pride of life. You are a slave to sin and to its nature. You are a slave to your own wisdom and logic, thinking that in yourself you will find the answer. Nope, the answer has come and will soon come again.... :D Also because we have experienced the LOVE of God, we know that our best interest is all he has in mind. You would not understand this. But the good news is.... receive Christ Jesus and you can begin to...!
In this regard the angel of light, Lucifer, is the only sane guy in the court of the strange god of yours. As far as I can see, there is really nothing wrong with Lucifer in this regard, he is just a fellow with high integrity and enough guts to question the rigid system trying to control him.
I would expect you to relate to Lucifer, for the bible says that he is your father. (and once was mine!) I once thought as you do. It leads to death. Lucifer has no integrity. He is a Liar and the father of all lies. He has lied to you, my friend. Awake from you spiritual slumber, repent and receive the forgiveness of God, through the risen saviour Jesus Christ!
I dont believe in this illogical and mentally instabile religious system of yours, but if I did, I would definitely have chosen the company of Lucifer, since he seems to be the only guy over there with enough balls to stand up for freedom.
Well, while roasting alive in the lake of fire with him if you neglect so great a salvation, you will have plenty of time to tell him how proud you are of him and of his lies. And then thank him for leading you astray and to eternal damnation. Eternal life is so close to you, you only need reach out by faith....!
Who are you really, sheep of your god, who have succumbed to blind obedience and call us fools? Sheep are stupid. Have you seen sheep getting scared? They run randomly in any direction the herd happens to take, no matter were the first sheep goes, the other follows.
You should not bow your head to anyone, this is just conditioning induced through millenia by your human leaders, using your need for a god to relieve you from responsibility.
If there is no God, then there is no responibility. There is no moral compass. One can do as they please, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. But of course this then comes up against a hard brick wall.... the TRUTH! Whom the SON has set FREE is FREE indeed!!! Thank you Lord Jesus, the lover of my soul!
Stop bowing your head!
I bow not only my head but also my knees. For the Lord has pulled me out of the miry clay and set my feet upon a rock! He has put a new song in my mouth, even praised unto my God!
Stand straight and open minded!
I am a Child of the King! I shall one day, with all believers, rule as priests and kings! I do indeed stand straight and am open minded TO THE TRUTH! Why be open minded to lies? If I know something to be a lie, why should I then be open minded to it? But, you argue, you don't think it is a lie... well, my friend, that is on you! Repent, turn from you wicked ways before it is too late.
Question everything, especially the ones who tries to rule you.
Jesus did not die for anyones sins, you poor sheep! Wake up!
Oh, I beg to differ my friend. And your eternity holds in the balance. For if I am wrong, I have lived a life of faith. But if you are wrong, your risk eternity in a fiery hell, where the worm never dies, and the tongue is set on fire. You are betting that the bible is a lie and that God is a liar. I am betting that the Bible is true, and that God is True and that Jesus Christ is Lord of my life. Your life is on Shifting sand, my life is on the solid foundation of Rock! Good luck with your wager...
We do not owe anyone anything to be born here on earth and live! Its for free! Enjoy it like a child!
Be curious! Ask questions! Question everything!
LIVE!
We believers in Christ do indeed live, and shall live forever. Your definition of "live" is probably far different from mine. The Bible is full of all of mans answers. It is the owners manual for our life. YOU can NOT truly LIVE until you have the AUTHOR OF LIFE inside of you! Believe it.... or not......!
Peace to you,
Bruce
Gwandau
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 05:16:16 PM
@CuriousChris and all atheists:
Here's two simple questions.
1.) Is it possible for a photon to be observed more than once without the observation itself destroying the photon? In other-words, can the information carried by a photon be transferred hundreds of times to a physical system without being lost?
This statement is meaningless as far as I can tell
Observing a photon does not destroy the photon. If you were to believe that then simply observing the universe would cause it to explode
Unless you are trying to describe something different and I have misunderstood you.
Perhaps you are trying to talk about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle)
This in essence means you cannot measure both position and speed at the same time, by measuring one you render the other unmeasurable. Nothing is destroyed (assuming your use of destroyed means converted to heat energy)
edit: the answer to the question as it is written, (perhaps I was looking too deep) the answer is
YESQuote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 05:16:16 PM
2.) According to the answer of the first question, wouldn't a god who then gives rise to omniscience by demanding the existence of the position information of matter cause the collapse of all wave functions in the universe? The bonds of all matter would break and everything would be destroyed?
Gravock
I have no idea what you are talking about here? Are you saying if a god exists therefore the universe can't? Are you trying to argue god doesn't know everything?
If the latter is the case then you are arguing God restrains himself by the rules of the universe (the uncertainty principle). Or god IS RESTRAINED by the rules of the universe.
In the former God is the creator, in the latter God is the created. Which is it to be?With respect to the former in the last sentence. The following is one of the reasons why I believe the bible is
completely fictitious.
Now try and keep up here because it means you need to suspend "faith without critical thought". Sorry Bruce that precludes you. Its just not in your DNA.
The bible is full of miracles. To create a miracle God must alter physical reality to perform the miracle. IT MUST break the laws of physics Now if we accept God created the universe then he also created the laws of physics. So to create a miracle he MUST BREAK HIS OWN LAWS. Would a perfect God do that?
There is an alternate scenario that does not require the breaking of the laws of physics to create apparent miracles. In this scenario which fits an omnipotent God perfectly. God created the universe at some distant point in the past. We will call it the big bang, as that is the most promising theory at this point (note to faithers, theory does not mean fact, at least science if nothing else is honest).
When God initiated the big bang he created the rules of the universe with such amazing perfection that when Moses led 2 Million people out of Egypt a distant volcano erupted, creating a pillar of fire and smoke to guide Moses to mount Sinai. Thus no physical laws are broken and therefore God does not break his own rules. Instead he shows his own perfection for those willing to look for it.
Wonderful isn't it that alternative. God creates miracles by setting the process into motion 13 Billion earth years ago. No laws of physics broken. Miracles performed, the Bible fulfilled.
Oh Except there is a problem. Dang nab it nasty human logic getting in the way!
If God started the universe and planned everything in advance. He knew in advance everything that was going to happen. every possible permutation and he created circumstances to alter those permutations such that his plans were fulfilled.
In Other words he created pre destiny. and in a predestined universe there is no room for free will.
edit:
p.s. Like most here I am actually more an agnostic. Its the Christian version of a God I find offensive. Though I will admit my leanings are more and more athiest.
Quote from: Qwert on November 02, 2012, 05:58:23 PM
Do I say anything different? I say that your teachings are incorrect. Those who say that Evolution does not exist: DNA is a proof toward evolution.
edit
thus, creation is continuing. Creation did not stop at the seventh day.
Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good!
And then he saw THE DNA in what he created and saw evolution. and God said "Oh Shit" and disappeared in a puff of logic.
edit: changed ending
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 04:52:04 PM
It refers to worldly wisdom.
Gravock
Therefore you are saying everyone in that list. including yourself, Bruce,Chet,Mags, preachers, christian teachers, people who study the bible.
If they are not worldly then what are they?
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 06:34:41 PM
Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good!
And then he saw THE DNA in what he created and saw evolution. and God said "Oh Shit" and disappeared in a puff of logic.
edit: changed ending
;) ;)
Quote from: Gwandau on November 02, 2012, 05:12:34 PM
Faithers,
Why do you regard it a virtue to be obedient?
Only a fool is obedient.
snip
Be curious! Ask questions! Question everything!
LIVE!
Gwandau
+1
As a parent the hardest thing to do is to teach your children to question you and others. It makes parenting very hard.
But I am proud of the job my wife and I have done. Even though it was difficult to deal with the backchat, the stubbornness. We know our children can go into the world and not be abused by those who would take advantage of them.
They wont be fooled by the lies of the deceitful. They wont fall for dishonest religions. And if they do find a religion. we will know its the best choice for them.
We taught them both sides of the coin. Unlike my brother we showed them religion and science we did not censor them.
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 06:34:41 PM
Then God looked over all he had made, and he saw that it was very good!
And then he saw THE DNA in what he created and saw evolution. and God said "Oh Shit" and disappeared in a puff of logic.
edit: changed ending
Funny stuff. Darwin, on his death bed repented of the lie of evolution, and gave his life to Christ. I guess we will just have to wait and see..... don't worry, we are in the last of the last days, You won't have to long to wait. The worst parts of the Bible will soon be upon the planet. And when Christ raptures his people from this earth, you will be one of the mindless ones, flapping your jaws and pointing at the UFO's. LOL Now THAT is funny! I can see and hear it now...! ;)
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
This statement is meaningless as far as I can tell
Observing a photon does not destroy the photon. If you were to believe that then simply observing the universe would cause it to explode
Unless you are trying to describe something different and I have misunderstood you.
Perhaps you are trying to talk about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle)
This in essence means you cannot measure both position and speed at the same time, by measuring one you render the other unmeasurable. Nothing is destroyed (assuming your use of destroyed means converted to heat energy)
I have no idea what you are talking about here? Are you saying if a god exists therefore the universe can't? Are you trying to argue god doesn't know everything?
If the latter is the case then you are arguing God restrains himself by the rules of the universe (the uncertainty principle). Or god IS RESTRAINED by the rules of the universe.
In the former God is the creator, in the latter God is the created. Which is it to be?
With respect to the former in the last sentence. The following is one of the reasons why I believe the bible is completely fictitious.
Now try and keep up here because it means you need to suspend "faith without critical thought". Sorry Bruce that precludes you. Its just not in your DNA.
The bible is full of miracles. To create a miracle God must alter physical reality to perform the miracle. IT MUST break the laws of physics Now if we accept God created the universe then he also created the laws of physics. So to create a miracle he MUST BREAK HIS OWN LAWS. Would a perfect God do that?
There is an alternate scenario that does not require the breaking of the laws of physics to create apparent miracles. In this scenario which fits an omnipotent God perfectly. God created the universe at some distant point in the past. We will call it the big bang, as that is the most promising theory at this point (note to faithers, theory does not mean fact, at least science if nothing else is honest).
When God initiated the big bang he created the rules of the universe with such amazing perfection that when Moses led 2 Million people out of Egypt a distant volcano erupted, creating a pillar of fire and smoke to guide Moses to mount Sinai. Thus no physical laws are broken and therefore God does not break his own rules. Instead he shows his own perfection for those willing to look for it.
Wonderful isn't it that alternative. God creates miracles by setting the process into motion 13 Billion earth years ago. No laws of physics broken. Miracles performed, the Bible fulfilled.
Oh Except there is a problem. Dang nab it nasty human logic getting in the way!
If God started the universe and planned everything in advance. He knew in advance everything that was going to happen. every possible permutation and he created circumstances to alter those permutations such that his plans were fulfilled.
In Other words he created pre destiny. and in a predestined universe there is no room for free will.
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that it is not possible to measure location and momentum at the same time. If the momentum is distributed throughout the entire volume, if one measures the entire momentum, the whole volume must be considered. Since the volume spreads all over creation, it is impossible to say that it is located at a point. It seems that the meaning of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle can be reinterpreted to support the present conclusion of the nature of the photon. If it has aperture and length, the momentum is not located at a single point. If a single point is assumed for the structure, no momentum can be measured. It seems that the significance of the uncertainty principle has been highly overrated. It simply says that the photon has volume. Calculation shows that the energy and thus the mass is distributed uniformly throughout the structure.
However, when the whole volume of it's structure is considered, then both location and momentum can be measured at the same time, thus the uncertainty principal is false based on a wrong assumption. This means God isn't restrained by the rules of the universe and God doesn't restrain himself by the rules of the universe. God doesn't need to create miracles by setting the process into motion 13 Billion earth years ago. Here's a short story to illustrate this point. "There was a woman whose car stalled on the train tracks and a man appeared to this woman and told her there was a train coming through in a few minutes and she needed to get off the tracks immediately. She agreed, and the man pushed her car off the tracks. The woman got out of her car to give thank the man, but there was no sign of him anywhere." This was a miracle, because God sent an angel in the appearance of a man to help this woman. (Hebrews 13:2) "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." Predestination is a false teaching by the adversary to turn mankind away from God.
The adversary has charged God before all of the Heavenly Host, that:
1.) Mankind can successfully govern themselves without God's help.
2.) He can turn all men away from God.
By the adversary trying to turn all men away from God, then he proves mankind can't successfully govern themselves without God's help. Also, the adversary has failed in turning all men away from God. Throughout the history of mankind, there has been at least one person in all generations who have remained faithful to God.
Gravock
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
You are obedient to the lusts of you flesh, the lusts of the eye and the pride of life.
If I am hungry and I have food, I will eat and enjoy it, and if beauty meets my eye, may it be the beauty of unspoiled nature or a beautiful woman, I will enjoy it, and if I rejoice in being a human being on earth, I enjoy it.
There is nothing wrong in enjoying what is given you to enjoy. There is no slavery in this, just plain joyfulness in being alive.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
You are a slave to your own wisdom and logic, thinking that in yourself you will find the answer.
An open mind cannot be enslaved, and I am deliberately not looking for any answer.
As far as I am concerned LIFE IS NOT A PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED BUT A MYSTERY TO BE LIVED. :)
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
You are a slave to your own wisdom and logic
Better to be a slave to you own wisdom and logic than a slave to someone elses. ;)
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
I would expect you to relate to Lucifer, for the bible says that he is your father.
Why do you christian fundamentalists always talk about a father, why so sure your god is not female? This genus talk makes christanity even more stupid. Do your father in heaven have a c-ck? Or is his crotch empty? Like an eunuch? But again, how could he then be omni potent as you claim? ;D
Do your god allow jokes about him, or is he a dour old boy, lacking sense of humor?
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
If there is no God, then there is no responibility. There is no moral compass. One can do as they please, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
Absolutely wrong, and I am a living proof to this, since I have great empathy for those who suffers, and do what little I can do to help. The difference between you and me is that I do not need any crutches to walk that road. If you have self respect you respect others, it's not any more complicated than that. No need for moral guidance from any supressors.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
I bow not only my head but also my knees. For the Lord has pulled me out of the miry clay and set my feet upon a rock! He has put a new song in my mouth, even praised unto my God!
Look around you. Life is a dynamic and ever changing phenomenon. The only thing that stays the same is the saying :
This too will pass. Your rock is illusory, like the drug for the addict, afraid of reality. And the price is just as high, if not even higher.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
I do indeed stand straight and am open minded TO THE TRUTH!
That is a contradiction right there. To be open minded is the very opposition to your rigid preconception. To be open minded is to stay detached, no matter if it is of esoteric nature or exoteric.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
If I know something to be a lie, why should I then be open minded to it?
You really don't understand the definition of an open mind, do you. To be open minded means being a mere observer, saying
Is that so? to whatever attempt to persuade you that comes along your road.
The moment you lock yourself into a discriminative position of choice, you are no longer open minded. This is what the Buddha Mind is all about.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
You are betting that the bible is a lie and that God is a liar.
No, I am betting that the bible is a book made by men. Your god neither tells any thruth or lies, he is a mere character in the book made by men.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 06:12:47 PM
The Bible is full of all of mans answers.It is the owners manual for our life.
As I said before, your are caught in the ultimate prison, being both prisoner and warden in a prison built by yourself. You will never be free from this prison, since your experience of reality is so unrevokably twisted, where inside is out and outside is in.
The ultimate horror, and I cannot help you. Sorry.
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 02, 2012, 08:02:46 PM
Funny stuff. Darwin, on his death bed repented of the lie of evolution, and gave his life to Christ. I guess we will just have to wait and see..... don't worry, we are in the last of the last days, You won't have to long to wait. The worst parts of the Bible will soon be upon the planet. And when Christ raptures his people from this earth, you will be one of the mindless ones, flapping your jaws and pointing at the UFO's. LOL Now THAT is funny! I can see and hear it now...! ;)
To my knowledge, Darwin's conclusions deny the way of creation described in the bible. He did not negate existence of god or Christ. His findings show the proper process of creation through evolution.
edit
DNA is a proof toward evolution.
edit
Did Darwin Repent?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=1134
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 06:45:25 PM
Therefore you are saying everyone in that list. including yourself, Bruce,Chet,Mags, preachers, christian teachers, people who study the bible.
If they are not worldly then what are they?
No, worldly wisdom refers to unbelievers.
(2 Corinthians 6:17) Therefore, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the LORD. Don't touch their filthy things, and I will welcome you.
Gravock
Quote from: Qwert on November 02, 2012, 09:13:12 AM
another find: since DNA changes forever with each experience in life of a body, this implies that there must exist EVOLUTION: evolution means change. The guy in the above link implies that DNA fits perfectly to the religious teachings. Really? It does not fit to the teachings that evolution does not exist.
The amoeba dubia, a single cell organism, has over 200 times the genome or DNA of people. So, according to your logic, the amoeba dubia is 200 times more complex than humans and should have evolved into a much higher life form than people. This isn't the case, so DNA disproves evolution and proves an intelligent designer or Creator (God)!
Gravock
Quote from: Qwert on November 02, 2012, 08:25:32 PM
Did Darwin Repent?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=1134 (http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=1134)
This is the most common form of lie perpetrated by Christians
Because Christians NEVER question what comes from the pulpit they never learn when they are misinformed.
Thus such deliberate deceit propagates throughout the church
Now given 2000 years of history. Is it any wonder lies such as this are deeply embedded into the teachings?
Be A christian I am happy for you but never ever accept what people say on face value, they may simply be repeating a falsehood uttered by someone else
My father only two nights ago repeated a lie.
He believes that the astronaut James Irwin saw Noah's ark from space.
That is another lie perpetrated by those not interested in the truth. James Irwin never saw Noah's ark in his life. But he did go looking for it.
The lie machine called Christianity does not mind these little mistruths accumulating.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 09:11:17 PM
The amoeba dubia, a single cell organism, has over 200 times the genome or DNA of people. So, according to your logic, the amoeba dubia should have evolved into a much higher life form than people. This isn't the case, so DNA disproves evolution and proves an intelligent designer or Creator (God)!
Gravock
Bad logic.
It just means it has 670 billion base pairs of DNA. nothing more nothing less. your comment is spin.
Talking about the deliberate propagation of falsehood you left out this part. I wonder why?
Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychaos_dubium
Polychaos dubium may have the largest genome known for any organism, consisting of 670 billion base pairs of DNA, which is over 200 times larger than the human genome. The authors of one study, however, suggest treating that measurement with caution, because it was taken before the advent of modern genomic methods.
Quote from: Gwandau on November 02, 2012, 05:12:34 PM
Faithers,
Why do you regard it a virtue to be obedient?
Only a fool is obedient.
I bet you want kids to be undiscriminally obedient to their parents. To me that is teaching kids to be fools. Virtue to me is raising kids that question everything, including your own orders and decisions. This creates creative and thinking individuals and also makes yourself as a parent always strive to back up what you say with valid arguments.
Blind obedience is unhealthy, no matter who you obey, may it be a god or your parent or anyone trying to control you.
In this regard the angel of light, Lucifer, is the only sane guy in the court of the strange god of yours. As far as I can see, there is really nothing wrong with Lucifer in this regard, he is just a fellow with high integrity and enough guts to question the rigid system trying to control him.
I dont believe in this illogical and mentally instabile religious system of yours, but if I did, I would definitely have chosen the company of Lucifer, since he seems to be the only guy over there with enough balls to stand up for freedom.
Who are you really, sheep of your god, who have succumbed to blind obedience and call us fools? Sheep are stupid. Have you seen sheep getting scared? They run randomly in any direction the herd happens to take, no matter were the first sheep goes, the other follows.
You should not bow your head to anyone, this is just conditioning induced through millenia by your human leaders, using your need for a god to relieve you from responsibility.
Gwandau
"Why do you regard it a virtue to be obedient?
Only a fool is obedient."
Not if the end result is eternal life or death depending on which way you lean. ;)
"I bet you want kids to be undiscriminally obedient to their parents. To me that is teaching kids to be fools. Virtue to me is raising kids that question everything, including your own orders and decisions. This creates creative and thinking individuals and also makes yourself as a parent always strive to back up what you say with valid arguments.
Blind obedience is unhealthy, no matter who you obey, may it be a god or your parent or anyone trying to control you."
I know you are thinking logical, like CC. But why does it have to only be logical? The Bible says obey and honor your parents. So what is wrong with that? Some kids are very good and some have other things on their minds. Should I not insist that my children do not use drugs? Or should I just buy some cocaine and show them how its done? Or just let them do as they please as their friends get them into trouble. Kids learn. One way or the other. Without some sort of guidance and leash on them they run out into the road way, and you just let them go as they please. ??? There has to be rules that they learn to obey or the worst can happen soon enough. The same goes for us. There are many good people and many bad. Maybe you would let out all the prisoners around the world and let them do as they do.
"In this regard the angel of light, Lucifer, is the only sane guy in the court of the strange god of yours. As far as I can see, there is really nothing wrong with Lucifer in this regard, he is just a fellow with high integrity and enough guts to question the rigid system trying to control him."
So God has his rules and you wish to be what? free? From what? You have done with your life what you decided to do thus far. And if anyone got in your way, you let that happen. Not happy with what you have? Want more? Like Lucifer? ;)
"I dont believe in this illogical and mentally instabile religious system of yours, but if I did, I would definitely have chosen the company of Lucifer, since he seems to be the only guy over there with enough balls to stand up for freedom.
"
Hey, thats your choice! But when we make our choice you dont like that we have made those choices. Freedom for you and not us. Who do you think you are? God? ;) Are you the rule maker that says we cannot believe the way we do because it gets under your skin and cant stand it any longer? Thanks for my freedom that you preach so much about.. ;)
I have seen that you do prefer Lucifer. ;) What freedoms are you restricted from? And by who? You are free to believe in God or not. Whats next on your list? Live forever? ;) Old Lucy isnt going to give you that. ;) So where you gunna get it from? Science? :o
"Who are you really, sheep of your god, who have succumbed to blind obedience and call us fools? Sheep are stupid. Have you seen sheep getting scared? They run randomly in any direction the herd happens to take, no matter were the first sheep goes, the other follows."
What freedoms are 'we' restricted of that you claim to behold? Should we become murderers? Is that the freedom you speak of? Should we be free to take from each other? Should we lie, cheat,and take advantage of others? Are these the freedoms you are missing in life?
And now you say we are four legged, curly hair animals. Im not running randomly. And I do have friends. We hang out. Who is blind here? Next we will be donkeys. All speculation and imaginative thoughts. No science there. Just persecution.
"You should not bow your head to anyone, this is just conditioning induced through millenia by your human leaders, using your need for a god to relieve you from responsibility."
That doesnt make any sense. Again, speculation and what responsibility are we being relieved of? Very strange comment there.
"
Stop bowing your head! Only to God, not to you or your wishes. ;)
Stand straight and open minded! Your definition of open mind is fairly closed. ;)
Question everything, especially the ones who tries to rule you. And here you are trying to give us rules. :o ;)
Jesus did not die for anyones sins, you poor sheep! Wake up! Save the sheep, the Christians are fine. ;) You dont know what "wake up' really is. I do.
We do not owe anyone anything to be born here on earth and live! Its for free! Enjoy it like a child! We especially dont owe you. And what are we missing out on exactly? Running out in the roadway like some children do without guidance? Comon G.
You are not making a whole lot of sense. How about some free gas G? Milk? Your free life is not so free.
Be curious! Ask questions! Question everything! I am curious. I have been since a kid. My whole life is figuring things out. I also ask questions. And I question a lot.
LIVE! Im Alive!!! It would be hard to write this if I wasnt. You could say why am I wasting my time here and not living like you, but that would make you a hypocrite, wouldnt it? ;)
Anything else? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 08:33:05 PM
No, worldly wisdom refers to unbelievers.
(2 Corinthians 6:17) Therefore, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the LORD. Don't touch their filthy things, and I will welcome you.
Gravock
That quote doesn't say worldy wisdom refers to unbelievers but you do choose to interpret it means that. which is only your own interpretation (perception).
But lets just imagine it does
How do YOU separate truth from lies. How do you know which preacher is using worldly wisdom and which isn't?
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 08:10:57 PM
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle states that it is not possible to measure location and momentum at the same time. If the momentum is distributed throughout the entire volume, if one measures the entire momentum, the whole volume must be considered. Since the volume spreads all over creation, it is impossible to say that it is located at a point. It seems that the meaning of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle can be reinterpreted to support the present conclusion of the nature of the photon. If it has aperture and length, the momentum is not located at a single point. If a single point is assumed for the structure, no momentum can be measured. It seems that the significance of the uncertainty principle has been highly overrated. It simply says that the photon has volume. Calculation shows that the energy and thus the mass is distributed uniformly throughout the structure.
However, when the whole volume of it's structure is considered, then both location and momentum can be measured at the same time, thus the uncertainty principal is false based on a wrong assumption. This means God isn't restrained by the rules of the universe and God doesn't restrain himself by the rules of the universe. God doesn't need to create miracles by setting the process into motion 13 Billion earth years ago. Here's a short story to illustrate this point. "There was a woman whose car stalled on the train tracks and a man appeared to this woman and told her there was a train coming through in a few minutes and she needed to get off the tracks immediately. She agreed, and the man pushed her car off the tracks. The woman got out of her car to give thank the man, but there was no sign of him anywhere." This was a miracle, because God sent an angel in the appearance of a man to help this woman. (Hebrews 13:2) "Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it." Predestination is a false teaching by the adversary to turn mankind away from God.
The adversary has charged God before all of the Heavenly Host, that:
1.) Mankind can successfully govern themselves without God's help.
2.) He can turn all men away from God.
By the adversary trying to turn all men away from God, then he proves mankind can't successfully govern themselves without God's help. Also, the adversary has failed in turning all men away from God. Throughout the history of mankind, there has been at least one person in all generations who have remained faithful to God.
Gravock
Was that a response to my post? I am confused as it didnt appear to actually cover (other than by misdirection) anything I spoke about
If I made up a story like the railway track one would you believe it? If you did you'd be a fool.
You appear to waiver between applying sensible argument of which I can follow, to descending into trite stories such as the aforementioned. Is the basis of your faith built on such trite stories, on things like the lie that Darwin 'repented' If so you should turn on the analytical side of your brain and diagnose the blind faithful side.
Your analytical brain works quite well, please use it. I reckon you'd make a good researcher you are more fastidious than I am.
I like the others here have never asked for anything more than to open your eyes and mind to the possibility things may not be as you have been told.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 09:11:17 PM
The amoeba dubia, a single cell organism, has over 200 times the genome or DNA of people. So, according to your logic, the amoeba dubia is 200 times more complex than humans and should have evolved into a much higher life form than people. This isn't the case, so DNA disproves evolution and proves an intelligent designer or Creator (God)!
Gravock
Learn reasoning. Don't jump to conclusions. Here is an example of a non-religious discussion, using reasoning, not religious prejudice:
http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13933 (http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=13933)
edit
In the above example about amoeba dubia, this post ( http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg342490/#msg342490 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg342490/#msg342490) ) does not make sense: in this context, this recent example makes confusion to both: Intelligent Creation and the notion of Evolution.
About the pineal gland: ( http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg342497/#msg342497 (http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg342497/#msg342497) ) the video explains how important it is, that ancient texts throughout the world mention it. It does not explain why such important thing is not mentioned even by a single word in the bible. Yes, Vatican knows it, but not from the bible, they use different source: maybe KABALA?
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 09:38:00 PM
snip...
I like the others here have never asked for anything more than to open your eyes and mind to the possibility things may not be as you have been told.
Quoting myself LOL. Anyway...
Are you afraid of what you might find if you truly opened your mind up to alternative explanations, to seek the truth behind the statements? Is it fear that drives you, Fear that you are wrong and God won't step in at the last moment and 'make it right' that those that deserve punishment may actually get away with it?.
That was the biggest loss I felt when I realised it was not true.
Had a quote and post made but it only came out as a quote and none of my text. Get back to it later. Busy with life. ;)
Mags
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 02, 2012, 09:23:27 PM
Bad logic.
It just means it has 670 billion base pairs of DNA. nothing more nothing less. your comment is spin.
Talking about the deliberate propagation of falsehood you left out this part. I wonder why?
No, it's you who is putting the spin on things and using bad logic. "It just means it has 670 billion base pairs of DNA. nothing more nothing less". Well, let's see about that. What is the explanation for such an inefficient use of biological resources. Each and every time that amoeba replicates that massive load of DNA is reproduced. One of the basic concepts of evolution is that natural selection soon selects against any waste of energy and other biological resources. Organs, limbs, and such that serve no purpose in any given environment are selected against and disappear. An example of this is that all creatures that live in environments that are not exposed to light lose their eyes and skin pigmentation. I didn't deliberately leave anything out. There are many more examples than the amoeba, which your last argument can't cast any doubts on. Such as, an onion has 12 times the DNA of humans, and the bufu bufu has more than 2 times the base pairs of DNA. Less complex life forms with more DNA than humans doesn't support natural selection and evolution.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 10:15:23 PM
No, it's you who is putting the spin on things and using bad logic. "It just means it has 670 billion base pairs of DNA. nothing more nothing less". Well, let's see about that. What is the explanation for such an inefficient use of biological resources. Each and every time that amoeba replicates that massive load of DNA is reproduced. One of the basic concepts of evolution is that natural selection soon selects against any waste of energy and other biological resources. Organs, limbs, and such that serve no purpose in any given environment are selected against and disappear. An example of this is that all creatures that live in environments that are not exposed to light lose their eyes and skin pigmentation. I didn't deliberately leave anything out. There are many more examples than the amoeba, which your last argument can't cast any doubts on. Such as, an onion has 12 times the DNA of humans, and the bufu bufu has more than 2 times the base pairs of DNA. Less complex life forms with more DNA than humans doesn't support natural selection and evolution.
Gravock
That's not true at all. In fact it is a strong argument FOR evolution.
You have the wrong end of the stick altogether. If DNA was the result of intelligent design then perhaps it would be more efficient. Therefore an inefficient bloated bit of code points to a poor design, what one would expect if design was purely random.
But I happen to be of the thought that there is a lot more to evolution than we have discovered so far,
I do not believe in random mutations. But I also think that such aberrations as this don't actually point to anything. Until we discover more we just can't know. Hence my comment. This is the honesty of science. If you don't know then admit it, don't make an extravagant claim.
To point at such things as the bufu bufu (what is that btw) and claiming its the result of God is to invoke the God of the gaps argument.
The last part of the argument about leaving things out was to point out that with a little effort on your behalf you may see there is two sides to every story. Your blind acceptance of the first thing that you think supports your argument is just well blindness. You CHOSE by leaving out other pertinent facts to colour the possible reasons for the aberration like a simple miscount. Perhaps that extra 'load' actually performs some task. A task so subtle we do not see it. The junk DNA argument in the thread provided by qwert is one such discussion. Instead you chose to put forward the notion that because the number of bases is so huge it then means the entire study of evolution by tens of thousands of people is a lie and they are all complicit in that lie. and therefore by that masterstroke you prove God. Well I say penn and teller!
The wonderful thing about the internet is it only takes a few minutes to find alternate viewpoints. To remove misunderstandings. If you restrict yourself to going to sites that only support your viewpoint and only believing like minded people and then try to use that to sell your viewpoint you can only expect people to call you out and say your wrong.
What else can you possibly expect?
How did you prove the story about the lady on the train line? It may have happened like that, but like a lot of hero's sometimes they prefer to vanish. Her view of this person may have been obstructed by a corner or a tree. She may have just wanted some attention and made the whole damn thing up! Who knows I don't and I am very confident that neither do you.
Churches pay people to come and speak at assemblies. Sometimes it may just be by providing travel and accommodation, sometimes its by providing an actual income for their 'testimony'
Now you tell me, does that model reward honesty or extravagant claims? How many people can make a living out of saying "Nope nothing extraordinary happened"?
edit:
Billy Graham was once quoted as boasting I have never had to pay for a suit or accommodation. so his 1/4 mill per annum is just pocket money
Magzimus Leviticus,
Any "rules" from my side have one single purpose, and that is do UNDO any rule dependency whatsoever, and starting to trust life itself.
Everyone knows in their hearts what is wrongdoing to other people, you don't need any religion for that and neither any rules. You just have to be yourself. As I have emphasized so many times, respect yourself and you will respect all other sentient beings. No need for a god.
Regarding parenting of kids, you either pretend not to understand or really don't comprehend what I have been trying to convey. I never said to abandon all rules, I am just trying to elucidate you about the difference between getting the kid to freely respect you and listen to you, compared to strictly following your bible rules and maybe be forced to execute your orders and rules with or without the kids consent, or even use your bible as a weapon in your parenting.
I have never been unfortunate to dishonor my son by executing any rules like that, since he spontaneously respect my arguments if he find them valuable. He has a very high integrity and a big heart, and I trust him and respect him just as much as I love him.
QuoteYou dont know what "wake up' really is. I do.
There are so many levels of awakening, who are you to judge anyone but yourself? ;)
You certainly are fully aware that a spiritual awakening does not neccessarily have to involve a god. If not aware, you are incredibly ignorant and quite unaware of the many different authentic spiritual levels there are among humanity.
I you find yourself unable to agree to this, you are either very unexerienced in the spiritualistic domain or you are openly denying the depth and wisdom within the spiritualistic sfere of shamans and eastern mystics since thousands of years back, long before your jesus, who by the way was being trained in eastern buddhism and mysticism during his many years between the age of 18 and 30 in India and Kashimir.
Unfortunately this is edited away by the early gnostic edition, but there are scriptures found in a monastery in Kashimir telling about the jew Joshua who mastered much of the yoga knowledge and became enlightened here before returning to his politically torn country.
But he returned soon thereafter to the monastery, after giving up his spiritual and unfortunately political efforts at home, and lived there until his death many years later. A tombstone with his faint inscriptions are still at the monastery.
Most certainly his story is so hard edited in the bible that very little authenticity is left today.
Inner real sprituality is one thing, and the story in your bible an altogether different thing.
Unfortunately you are unaware that your god actually is you yourself, expressed by your own inner being.
Gwandau
If evolution was not possible, there would very good things happen: it would be impossible to acquire any disease. Of course, curing a disease would be impossible also, but who would care about curing if there was no disease?
edit
Also, the process of learning is just a proof toward evolution.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 02, 2012, 09:11:17 PM
The amoeba dubia, a single cell organism, has over 200 times the genome or DNA of people. So, according to your logic, the amoeba dubia is 200 times more complex than humans and should have evolved into a much higher life form than people. This isn't the case, so DNA disproves evolution and proves an intelligent designer or Creator (God)!
Gravock
Any designer that would deliberately create a simple single celled organism such as an amoeba, with two hundred times more complexity than that required for a multi celled organism like a human being, could hardly be described as intelligent. So much design overkill and wasted building resources would indicate a lack of intelligent forethought, and poor design inception.
Complexity is not an automatic indication of intelligence. Neither is volume of content.
A weather storm is complex, and the recent hurricane that wreaked havoc in the USA, was a large one, as many smaller storms joined into one. Does that mean because it was a complex system with a high volume of content, that it was an intelligent event ?
Quote from: Magluvin on November 02, 2012, 09:27:35 PM
"Why do you regard it a virtue to be obedient? Only a fool is obedient."
Not if the end result is eternal life or death depending on which way you lean.
snip...
IF .... not to be confused with IS
Any assertion that earth and our solar system are unique, is becoming less tenable with each new discovery
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121102151950.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121102151950.htm)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120412105531.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120412105531.htm)
Quote from: hoptoad on November 03, 2012, 06:27:07 AM
IF .... not to be confused with IS
Do you not see the "is" in my statement?
"Not
if the end results
is eternal life or death depending on which way you lean." :P
I use 'if' for the benefit of non believers understanding, being that you dont see these things as possible.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Gwandau on November 03, 2012, 12:27:25 AM
Magzimus Leviticus,
Any "rules" from my side have one single purpose, and that is do UNDO any rule dependency whatsoever, and starting to trust life itself.
Everyone knows in their hearts what is wrongdoing to other people, you don't need any religion for that and neither any rules. You just have to be yourself. As I have emphasized so many times, respect yourself and you will respect all other sentient beings. No need for a god.
Regarding parenting of kids, you either pretend not to understand or really don't comprehend what I have been trying to convey. I never said to abandon all rules, I am just trying to elucidate you about the difference between getting the kid to freely respect you and listen to you, compared to strictly following your bible rules and maybe be forced to execute your orders and rules with or without the kids consent, or even use your bible as a weapon in your parenting.
I have never been unfortunate to dishonor my son by executing any rules like that, since he spontaneously respect my arguments if he find them valuable. He has a very high integrity and a big heart, and I trust him and respect him just as much as I love him.
There are so many levels of awakening, who are you to judge anyone but yourself? ;)
You certainly are fully aware that a spiritual awakening does not neccessarily have to involve a god. If not aware, you are incredibly ignorant and quite unaware of the many different authentic spiritual levels there are among humanity.
I you find yourself unable to agree to this, you are either very unexerienced in the spiritualistic domain or you are openly denying the depth and wisdom within the spiritualistic sfere of shamans and eastern mystics since thousands of years back, long before your jesus, who by the way was being trained in eastern buddhism and mysticism during his many years between the age of 18 and 30 in India and Kashimir.
Unfortunately this is edited away by the early gnostic edition, but there are scriptures found in a monastery in Kashimir telling about the jew Joshua who mastered much of the yoga knowledge and became enlightened here before returning to his politically torn country.
But he returned soon thereafter to the monastery, after giving up his spiritual and unfortunately political efforts at home, and lived there until his death many years later. A tombstone with his faint inscriptions are still at the monastery.
Most certainly his story is so hard edited in the bible that very little authenticity is left today.
Inner real sprituality is one thing, and the story in your bible an altogether different thing.
Unfortunately you are unaware that your god actually is you yourself, expressed by your own inner being.
Gwandau
"Everyone knows in their hearts what is wrongdoing to other people, you don't need any religion for that and neither any rules."
Oh, so you see everyone as good and no one commits evil? Or are you saying it is the rules which cause people to murder, rape, or keep their child in a locked closet for years?
Actually some dont know and dont realize it. Even though some may have been exposed to the rules(exposing them to knowledge of good and evil), they just dont follow that leader simply because they think like you. Not saying you are a bad person generally..
When I was a kid, I did some bad things. My dad was never around and my mom let us have way too much freedoms. One of my friends took me with him to paint stuff on a bridge with spray cans. I wrote "Star Wars" My friend wrote, "Iran Sucks". needless to say we were caught in the act. We were taken home and our parents were given a $3000 dollar bill for repainting. At the time of doing the deed, I thought I was entertaining people with my clever young artistry. When the cops showed up, I knew differently. And as the bills came in I was strongly reminded of what I had done. Never did it again.
"No need for a god."
Believe as you will. And let me believe as I will. Is that too much for you to grasp? Do I not deserve the freedoms you speak so highly of?
" I never said to abandon all rules,"
Well being you say this
"Why do you regard it a virtue to be obedient? Only a fool is obedient."
Then what am I to think about how you regard the rules you do have or respect? So you want to abandon some rules. And the ones you want to keep, everyone, even your children are fools to obey them.
Do you not see you are contradicting yourself? ??? ??? ?? Its all right there! Can you not see it? ??? ? Or, you know what youve said and are in damage control now. ;)
You can play this game all you want. You are not winning. Clearly. Do you not 'believe' that others can comprehend what you write here? Do you believe that they all quickly forget what you write from one post to the next and you can get away with it? ;)
"There are so many levels of awakening, who are you to judge anyone but yourself? ;)
"
Yet you are not judging me and others in your previous post "
Jesus did not die for anyones sins, you poor sheep! Wake up!" :o Does the word Hypocrite come to mind? ??? ?? ;)
"You certainly are fully aware that a spiritual awakening does not neccessarily have to involve a god. If not aware, you are incredibly ignorant and quite unaware of the many different authentic spiritual levels there are among humanity."
Direct from the tongue of Lucifer himself. ;)
"Inner real sprituality is one thing, and the story in your bible an altogether different thing.
Unfortunately you are unaware that your god actually is you yourself, expressed by your own inner being."
The more you speak your 'opinions'(lies), Lucifer, the stronger my faith becomes. Keep up the good works. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus. A child of the God of Abraham ;)
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
"
Yet you are not judging me and others in your previous post "Jesus did not die for anyones sins, you poor sheep! Wake up!" :o Does the word Hypocrite come to mind? ??? ?? ;)
Yes! Hypocrite Jesus died to make us believe, he did it for us (an extreme kind of hypocricy). (edit)
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 11:56:10 AM
Do you not see the "is" in my statement?
"Not if the end results is eternal life or death depending on which way you lean."
I use 'if' for the benefit of non believers understanding, being that you dont see these things as possible.
Magzimus Leviticus
Possible and improbable.
Quote from: Gwandau on November 02, 2012, 08:16:02 PM
If I am hungry and I have food, I will eat and enjoy it, and if beauty meets my eye, may it be the beauty of unspoiled nature or a beautiful woman, I will enjoy it, and if I rejoice in being a human being on earth, I enjoy it.
There is nothing wrong in enjoying what is given you to enjoy. There is no slavery in this, just plain joyfulness in being alive.
"Sin is pleasure for a season. But the wages of sin is death."
An open mind cannot be enslaved, and I am deliberately not looking for any answer.
As far as I am concerned LIFE IS NOT A PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED BUT A MYSTERY TO BE LIVED. :)
Better to be a slave to you own wisdom and logic than a slave to someone elses. ;)
You are ALREADY a slave and do not even know it! This is the satanic joke on mankind. :o You are a slave to sin. I am a slave to righteousness, received not by good works but by grace and faith in the risen Lord of Glory!
Why do you christian fundamentalists always talk about a father, why so sure your god is not female? This genus talk makes christanity even more stupid. Do your father in heaven have a c-ck? Or is his crotch empty? Like an eunuch? But again, how could he then be omni potent as you claim? ;D
Do your god allow jokes about him, or is he a dour old boy, lacking sense of humor?
When you stand before him and eventually bow your knee to him, you may ask him yourself. "For as it is written, EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess to the glory of God the Father, that Jesus Christ is Lord!" Satan's knee will bow, and your knee will also bow. So it is written, so let it be done....
Do this NOW and receive eternal life. But you shall bow your knees. All of your doubt, unbelief and satanic logic and wisdom of man, will not alter the outcome. So be it.
Absolutely wrong, and I am a living proof to this, since I have great empathy for those who suffers, and do what little I can do to help. The difference between you and me is that I do not need any crutches to walk that road. If you have self respect you respect others, it's not any more complicated than that. No need for moral guidance from any supressors.
Your conscience IS your guide, and why you answer like that. Your conscience, (or anyone else's, even those deep in the jungles) from where does that come?
Look around you. Life is a dynamic and ever changing phenomenon. The only thing that stays the same is the saying : This too will pass. Your rock is illusory, like the drug for the addict, afraid of reality. And the price is just as high, if not even higher.
That is a contradiction right there. To be open minded is the very opposition to your rigid preconception. To be open minded is to stay detached, no matter if it is of esoteric nature or exoteric.
"Thus saith God, I am the LORD and I change not." "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever." Christ Jesus changes us who have repented and come to him in faith. This change is daily and ongoing. For we are changed from glory to glory. Your life is as a vapor of smoke, here for a moment and then gone. Repent in the name of Jesus, while there is still time.
You really don't understand the definition of an open mind, do you. To be open minded means being a mere observer, saying Is that so? to whatever attempt to persuade you that comes along your road.
The moment you lock yourself into a discriminative position of choice, you are no longer open minded. This is what the Buddha Mind is all about.
Open minded to lies is stupid, and beyond reason or logic when one knows the truth. I expect you to be open minded to the lies and wisdom of this world, for you are of your father, who was a liar from the beginning. To the reader, only open your minds to TRUTH. Yes, there is TRUTH and there is FALSE HOOD, though these humanist would have you to think it is not so. Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. Repent therefore, that your name be found in the Lambs book of life on that day. For the books WILL be opened. And whosoevers name is not found shall be thrown alive in the the lake of fire. This is the second death. Repent, and turn to Christ Jesus. Call upon his name. For it is written, " that whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
No, I am betting that the bible is a book made by men. Your god neither tells any thruth or lies, he is a mere character in the book made by men.
That is a really, really, really bad bet. Tis a shame to die in ones sin, and ignorance.
As I said before, your are caught in the ultimate prison, being both prisoner and warden in a prison built by yourself. You will never be free from this prison, since your experience of reality is so unrevokably twisted, where inside is out and outside is in.
The ultimate horror, and I cannot help you. Sorry.
Funny thing, is that it is those who have not come to repentance in Christ Jesus that are in prison. Inprisoned and enslaved to sin and it's passions. Without God and without hope. Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge thereof. Ever striving and never arriving. Your souls are too valuable to give in to the devil and his lies. Turn from self deception and from the foolish wisdom of man. We believers in the risen saviour of the world, Jesus Christ, appear twisted to you and before I came to Christ, appeared twisted to me. But perception IS NOT reality. In reality, it was the "old sin nature" that was indeed twisted. I can help you, but you must first repent.
"For in the LAST DAYS, men will come, scoffing. Heady, highminded, proud. Calling that which is good, evil, and calling that which is evil, good." You too are now fulfilling that prophecy that was spoken of your kind, so long ago. Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!
Bruce
Gwandau
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 03, 2012, 06:11:43 PM
snip...
for you are of your father, who was a liar from the beginning.
snip...
So 'god the father' is a liar?
Bruce_tpu Do you like to stand on street corers, and yell a lot?
Quote from: hoptoad on November 03, 2012, 06:23:14 PM
So 'god the father' is a liar?
Hey spin master. Keep on twisting. ;) You know very well he was talking of the human father.
Its lines like that, that show your arguments are empty. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 03, 2012, 07:23:15 PM
Bruce_tpu Do you like to stand on street corers, and yell a lot?
I dont see any yelling. ??? Are you a twister too? ;) Lying to beef up your empty arguments?
But I suppose that is the basis of your logic and you cant produce a serious fact. Just lies, deception, belittling, and science that is written by scientists you wouldnt trust to write the science. Your logic is beyond Alice in Wonderland. :o ;)
Magzimus Leviticus A child of the God of Abraham ;D
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 07:33:30 PM
Hey spin master. Keep on twisting. ;) You know very well he was talking of the human father.
Its lines like that, that show your arguments are empty. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
It was a question not a statement.
As for empty, it is no more empty than your superfluous winking, endless rhetoric and constant name calling.
By the way, calling someones real father a liar, (without even knowing them) is libelous.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 03, 2012, 07:56:29 PM
It was a question not a statement.
As for empty, it is no more empty than your superfluous winking, endless rhetoric and constant name calling.
By the way, calling someones real father a liar, (without even knowing them) is libelous.
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) :o ;D
Forget about if it was a question or a statement. ;) It was your inflection that the father he was talking about was God, well knowing that was not whom he was talking about. ;) I read it. ;) I recognized which he was speaking of. :) And you call me blind. :o ;)
Maybe, just maybe, you read everything with a blind view. ;) ;D Maybe that is your problem. :) I have evidence. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Maybe you were trying to make a funny, twisting his words to imply that he was calling God a Liar. Now if I may ask, what logic or even proof can you show me that he would ever utter those words. ;) You cannot. ;) And there was no mistake. ;) You twisted. ;)
Oh, so since you are busted, you have to still make it look bad of what was really said. ;) Damage control. ;) You are pitiful. ::)
I guess coming from you, thats logical. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus A child of the God of Abraham ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
Then what am I to think about how you regard the rules you do have or respect? So you want to abandon some rules. And the ones you want to keep, everyone, even your children are fools to obey them.
Do you not see you are contradicting yourself? ?? Its all right there! Can you not see it? ? Or, you know what youve said and are in damage control now.
There is no contradiction here at all. You just experience what I say as a contradiction since you really dont' get what I am saying.
This is exactly what I said:
"Regarding parenting of kids, you either pretend not to understand or really don't comprehend what I have been trying to convey. I never said to abandon all rules, I am just trying to elucidate you about the difference between getting the kid to freely respect you and listen to you, compared to strictly following your bible rules and maybe be forced to execute your orders and rules with or without the kids consent, or even use your bible as a weapon in your parenting."
And you obviouisly don't seem to get my point, so lets try again in slightly other words:
I never said to abandon all rules, its not even about the question of rules or no rules, I am emphasizing the enormous difference between giving someone ready made rules to follow instead of teaching someone to be responsible for his own actions. Trust your child to use what you have told him to figure out himself how to act, so if any rules are created, they are born within himself.
Do you understand my point now? Or do you still lack the ability to understand?
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
Oh, so you see everyone as good and no one commits evil? Or are you saying it is the rules which cause people to murder, , or keep their child in a locked closet for years?
I am saying it is the law enforced rules that indirectly make people lose their responsibility for their own actions. It is a kind of Moment 22 situation. Rules are needed, still the same rules are creating immature beings without enough self respect to chose the road of love peace and understanding.
Rules is like crutches and society unfortunately needs rules to keep the ones without self respect from hurting others. But rules does not make you a better person, it just strips you from taking responsibility for your actions, making you obedient only as long as there is rules.
So I am not saying that society should throw away all their rules, I am just telling you that rules are only needed in a society where the members are unable to take responsibility for their own actions.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
Oh, so you see everyone as good and no one commits evil? Or are you saying it is the rules which cause people to murder, , or keep their child in a locked closet for years?
Everyone know when he is doing something that hurt someone else. I have been working with kids deeply involved in criminality and even the most stupid one of them always knew he was doing something wrong. There is not one single person on this earth that do not know what they are doing. The very definition of evil is doing and knowing it is hurting someone.
It is all about their self respect. Without self respect, you don't care if you hurt anyone and it is absolutely impossible to do anything that hurt others if you have self respect.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
When I was a kid, I did some bad things. My dad was never around and my mom let us have way too much freedoms. One of my friends took me with him to paint stuff on a bridge with spray cans. I wrote "Star Wars" My friend wrote, "Iran Sucks". needless to say we were caught in the act. We were taken home and our parents were given a $3000 dollar bill for repainting. At the time of doing the deed, I thought I was entertaining people with my clever young artistry. When the cops showed up, I knew differently. And as the bills came in I was strongly reminded of what I had done. Never did it again.
Parents are of course crucial in the healthy growth of a young spirit. They should always be at hand when needed. But I really do not see a truly bad thing in some young rebellish graffiti, even if it violates someone elses rules, since it is really not hurting anyone or causing substantial damage to anyones property.
Let me ask you this question:
Would it have been OK if you as a kid have gotten 3000 dollars to spend upon a legally rented adverticing plate along the road, upon which you had done the same spray can creation?
I have a feeling you think everything that is forbidden to do by law, as a result must be evil to do.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
Yet you are not judging me and others in your previous post "Jesus did not die for anyones sins, you poor sheep! Wake up!" Does the word Hypocrite come to mind?
I'm not judging anyone, I'm just criticizing the unhealthy delusion of owning a fabled figure for your freedom. You own nobody nothing for being born into a life here on earth. (sorry I called you "poor sheep", but unfortunately you are acting like one)
I never questioned the life changing event of your "awakening", I never judged you in this regard, which indeed you did when judging me about my level of spiritual experience.
The only thing I am questioning in regard to your "awakening", is the underlying psychology behind you experience. To take the "jump" into what really? I know several people who have been where you are, but who have managed to free themselves from this conditioning. They are today happy free spritual individuals who are deeply connected to their inner beings but never again will fall into the trap of your mentally unhealthy belief system.
"You certainly are fully aware that a spiritual awakening does not neccessarily have to involve a god. If not aware, you are incredibly ignorant and quite unaware of the many different authentic spiritual levels there are among humanity."
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
Direct from the tongue of Lucifer himself.
That's a handy frase when things get to much for you, isn't it?
Your response shows us how incredibly narrow minded your are. You totally lack respect for other religions, just like most other religions totally lack respect four your belief, and that is exactly why religions have done more harm to humanity than anything else.
Since I fully understand the concepts presented by you, even if I do not share those concepts, but you on the other hand totally seem to lack the conceptual ability to grasp what I say, it is obviously futile to spend my energy upon you. As I have said before, there is only one way to get out of a prison that is self made.
One thing is for sure, I have witnessed people just like you who at last got free from the morbid confines of the christian prison and found their way out to a spiritual life in self respect and beauty without the unhealthy chains of christianity.
Gwandau
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 08:44:50 PM
And you call me blind.
I have never called you anything except a faither. You
know from my posts that I haven't called you blind, and now you are deliberately perpetrating something you
know to be untrue.
Therefore, I now have no reservation in calling you a liar.
Edit : due to an apology extended and accepted I retract this statement in full.
The universe is a child of God the ALGORITHM and Goddess the GEOMETRY...
Gota run to the store. Was part way with Gwandaus post and my mouse batt was low. Its a logitec. I would think it would just shut down, not move the curser all crazy and clicking on things while it was funky and lost it all. Ugh. ;)
I see hoptoad has posted too. Back in a bit. Hops, You might be right that you didnt say that, It was said a few times here and if I mistook it as you then my apologies. It wasnt intended to be a lie. ;) I will admit when I have faltered. Forgive me of my trespasses. ;)
Mags
8) http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/som 8)
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 09:37:57 PM
Gota run to the store. Was part way with Gwandaus post and my mouse batt was low. Its a logitec. I would think it would just shut down, not move the curser all crazy and clicking on things while it was funky and lost it all. Ugh. ;)
I see hoptoad has posted too. Back in a bit. Hops, You might be right that you didnt say that, It was said a few times here and if I mistook it as you then my apologies. It wasnt intended to be a lie. ;) I will admit when I have faltered. Forgive me of my trespasses. ;)
Mags
Apology accepted and forgiveness given without reservation.
P.S. Since you have indicated you did not intentionally lie, I retracted my previous post.
Quote from: hoptoad on October 13, 2012, 01:36:41 AM
Has anyone tried to give a probability figure yet. Hmmm. Lets see. Most statistical probability is referenced to something that is quantatively known. Usually the broader the range of quantities known, the more accurate their use as references.
What can we use as a known statistical reference? The number of grains of sand on the earth compared to the number of stars in our galaxy.
What are the odds of another known planet in our galaxy having the same number of grains of sand (give or take a few billion for locale error). Given that our knowledge of any known planets around other stars is statistically miniscule compared to the number of stars in our milky way then we're already in hot water trying to give a probability even for that let alone a probability for the existence of a god.
It seems the only way to reference this is to look at the probability of our own existence. What's the probability of a whole universe springing into existence from nothing. ? Since "nothing" is infinite, the probability against creation of something from nothing is infinite. So too, the probability of a god springing into existence from nothing is the same. Infinite against.
But we do exist in a universe here and now, which is proved simply by our obvious being. So, we may have came into existence against infinite probability (assuming a universe beginning from nothing), but we cannot prove the same is true for a god when there is no explicit evidence in the here and now. The probability against remains infinite.
Cheers
Back to the essence of the title of this thread - Probability (Probality ?) of God
The statistical mathematics of probability requires parameters.
How would a computer derive its parameters? Or more precisely, how would a programmer instruct a computer to derive parameters and what is the least amount of information exchange or storage necessary to process or store that derivation?
Purely in terms of machine language, the minimum possible parameters would be two, consisting of 0 or 1.
That is to say, a 50/50 probability. Something either IS probable, or it IS NOT probable.
Hmmmmm ...... KneeDeep ........ deep thought ...... 42
Quote from: hoptoad on November 03, 2012, 09:48:27 PM
Apology accepted and forgiveness given without reservation.
P.S. Since you have indicated you did not intentionally lie, I retract my statement calling you a liar.
Thank you kindly. ;D And I mean it. My respect level for you is heightened. ;) Thats something that I care about.
In my life, I have friends that do not believe. These friends, we do not belittle each other. We have our talks. But we remain friends. Who wouldnt want that the way things are. Some I suppose.. I may sound harsh at times. I dont have to be. But some times it is the only language that some can see that I am serious. I could post quotes from the Bible throughout my posts. But I know they will be targets for speculative rebuttal. I would not have any of that posted here.
Many times I get the feeling I should. But I will only, when someone is serious about a nice discussion. I will not mix quotes from the Bible with those who totally consider it a fairytale. It becomes a waste of time. The seed of it being a fairytale has already grown. It has roots. Its not easy to change that. But it can be done.
So I have to pay attention to what you guys say. Closely. If I see faults in the logic you present, I point it out. If things get ugly, I put my self in a place that shows I will not back down for what I believe in. I have to use some language that does have teeth, for some will just beat down the passive. I started here defending my friends from verbal persecution. I would not kill anyone for my beliefs nor theirs. But if whom ever were to really threaten my life 'for my beliefs', and I were powerless, I would stand proud and and let them do as they would. I know where I will be when all is said and done.
I try to be softer than some with my comments. Most of my harsh posts are to hopefully get the person I am talking to, to maybe realize certain things about themselves and what they actually say, and maybe have a real conversation. I prefer that than this. Whether you end up staying on the same path or not. It doesnt have to be a war. Other than our differences in spirituality, we may have lots to talk about. ;)
Mags
Quote from: hoptoad on November 03, 2012, 10:57:36 PM
Back to the essence of the title of this thread - Probability (Probality ?) of God
The statistical mathematics of probability requires parameters.
How would a computer derive its parameters? Or more precisely, how would a programmer instruct a computer to derive parameters and what is the least amount of information exchange or storage necessary to process or store that derivation?
Purely in terms of machine language, the minimum possible parameters would be two, consisting of 0 or 1.
That is to say, a 50/50 probability. Something either IS probable, or it IS NOT probable.
Hmmmmm ...... KneeDeep ........ deep thought ...... 42
Ive programmed machine language. The program would have to be developed into a higher language to make things more convenient and the amount of physical data would be tremendous. We wouldnt be able to leave anything out of the equation.
From my perspective, If what you say were to be done, I would invest my money on the God verdict. And my opinion is that evolution of the sort that we are told of is built into the design so that 'you' can possibly believe the way you do, if you choose so. Thats where free will comes to play. Which way will the free willed humans go? And as you can clearly see, there are some of each. ;) Not that this proves anything to you. Im just stating my position. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on November 03, 2012, 07:40:15 PM
I dont see any yelling. ??? Are you a twister too? ;) Lying to beef up your empty arguments?
But I suppose that is the basis of your logic and you cant produce a serious fact. Just lies, deception, belittling, and science that is written by scientists you wouldnt trust to write the science. Your logic is beyond Alice in Wonderland. :o ;)
Magzimus Leviticus A child of the God of Abraham ;D
I asked the question some posts ago about your thoughts on street corner pulpits. you and the others deigned not to answer.
Bruces responses are very reminiscent of those types of people. What I mean by this is rather than talking about the subject at hand he just tries to quote scripture a lot, failing to understand in the least that that is the least effective way of making a point on this forum and he has been known to SHOUT A LOT WHEN ANSWERING.
As for your attempted transparent claim I am twisting things. I asked a question. you did the twisting.
Can I assume because you took that as an insult that you believe those street corner shouters are a negative influence?
I AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT YOU REALLY THINK OF STREET CORNER SHOUTERS?
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 04, 2012, 02:25:13 AM
I asked the question some posts ago about your thoughts on street corner pulpits. you and the others deigned not to answer. Bruces responses are very reminiscent of those types of people. What I mean by this is rather than talking about the subject at hand he just tries to quote scripture a lot, failing to understand in the least that that is the least effective way of making a point on this forum and he has been known to SHOUT A LOT WHEN ANSWERING.
As for your attempted transparent claim I am twisting things. I asked a question. you did the twisting.
Can I assume because you took that as an insult that you believe those street corner shouters are a negative influence?
I AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT YOU REALLY THINK OF STREET CORNER SHOUTERS?
I am not shouting. I use all caps on certain words for "emphasis". I use bold face for long rebuttels, so that the reader can determine easily, at a glance the questioner, vs the rebuttel.
I quote the Word of God, because man's "opinion" is nonsense, and it is only "God's opinion" on any given subject that counts. Even if the reader does not believe in God, it does NOT (all caps given for emphasis, not shouting... ;) ) change the truth of God's Word, nor the certainty of which it will come to pass. "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my word shall abide forever." "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
So, I share with the readers what the Lord's thoughts are on the given subject. For that is REALLY what is important. :)
P.S. To answer your question, I do not judge another man's servant. They serve the Lord. That is between they and he. How do I know he did not tell them to stand where they are and speak what they are speaking?
Peace to you,
Bruce
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 04, 2012, 02:25:13 AM
I AM INTERESTED TO KNOW WHAT YOU REALLY THINK OF STREET CORNER SHOUTERS?
Should I assume you are shouting here? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
This site tells it all.
http://www.thetrumpet.com/ (http://www.thetrumpet.com/)
.
"God said it, it's in the Bible, I believe it, and that settles it."
Bumper-sticker religious faith.
It's great, it requires no thought whatsoever, and nobody can argue with it.
Some evidence from God, about faith.
"Allow little children to come to me, and do not forbid them: for of such is the kingdom of God."
"Truly I say to you, Whosoever will not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, will in no way enter into the kingdom of God." Luke 18:16,17
"For whosoever exalts himself, will be made low; and he that humbles himself, will be exalted." Luke 14:11
"But without faith, it is impossible to please God: for he that comes to God, must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
"Through faith, we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen, were not made of things which do appear." Hebrews 11:3
"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with great respect, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:7
I always tell the truth. My evidence and proof for that is incontrovertible: I have told you that I always tell the truth, and since I always tell the truth, that statement is true. I've written it in a big black book, too, and you can look it up on Page One: it says right there that I always tell the truth.
Do you believe me?
Based on the evidence I've given you above... perhaps you shouldn't.
The Bible is the Word of God. How do we know, you ask?..... Well, it says so right there in the Bible, and the Bible is the Word of God. Are you dense, or what?
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 04, 2012, 09:41:24 AM
I am not shouting. I use all caps on certain words for "emphasis". I use bold face for long rebuttels, so that the reader can determine easily, at a glance the questioner, vs the rebuttel.
I quote the Word of God, because man's "opinion" is nonsense, and it is only "God's opinion" on any given subject that counts. Even if the reader does not believe in God, it does NOT (all caps given for emphasis, not shouting... ;) ) change the truth of God's Word, nor the certainty of which it will come to pass. "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my word shall abide forever." "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
So, I share with the readers what the Lord's thoughts are on the given subject. For that is REALLY what is important. :)
P.S. To answer your question, I do not judge another man's servant. They serve the Lord. That is between they and he. How do I know he did not tell them to stand where they are and speak what they are speaking?
Peace to you,
Bruce
You know, you still have not explained why, according to god's word in the bible, slavery is OK. Please ask Jesus and let us know, thank you.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 04, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
You know, you still have not explained why, according to god's word in the bible, slavery is OK. Please ask Jesus and let us know, thank you.
If there is anything in the Bible that makes modern people nervous, it is its treatment of slavery. Slavery is humanely regulated in the legal portions of the Old Testament, and in the epistles of the New Testament slaveholders are exhorted to show kindness to slaves, but nowhere in the Bible is there anything which can be interpreted as a disapproval of the institution as such. People of our generation, Christians included, tend to have a very hard time with this, because it seems to amount to a tacit approval of the institution, and we balk at the idea that God did not consider the institution itself to be immoral.
Part of the problem is that we have false ideas about what slavery was really like. The life of a slave was not easy, but we get an exaggerated idea of the hardships of slavery from watching movies or reading historical material that is written on a popular level. Here the purpose is usually to dramatize the plight of slaves or to make some point about the evils of slavery in general,
(1) (http://www.bible-researcher.com/slavery.html#note1) but the historical reality was less dramatic. In most cases the life of a slave was not much different from the life of any lower-class worker. Those who have been in the military have experienced something like it — being legally bound to an employer and to a job that one cannot simply "quit" at will, not free to leave without permission, subject to discipline if one disobeys or is grossly negligent — all of this is familiar enough to those of us who have served in the military. And yet we know that the daily life of a good soldier is not especially hard. This is what it was like to be a slave.
Another problem is, when thinking about slavery we tend to have in mind the recent slavery of the black race in America, and so the whole subject of slavery gets mixed up with the issue of racism. But in ancient times, slavery was not associated with any particular race. By condoning slavery the Bible does not approve of racism.
A third reason why modern people have a hard time understanding the Bible's treatment of slavery is that we often now tend to confuse morality with political values. The modern tendency is to politicize everything, including even the Christian gospel. Moral philosophy or ethics has become so politicized that it seems to be almost a sub-department of political science now, which is why we have seen the rise of an elaborate political correctness (http://www.bible-researcher.com/political-correctness.html) in our public life. "Racism," "sexism," "homophobia," and so on, are the really serious sins under this new morality. Although we all know that people are not really equal, the egalitarian ideology of our time is considered to be of such overriding importance that any slight affront to it is considered sinful, while the principles of ordinary old-fashioned morality are downplayed and even denied. This political correctness is not merely a fad, it is the logical and inevitable result of the politicization of morality, the elaboration of an entirely
new morality based upon political ideas of right and wrong.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 04, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
You know, you still have not explained why, according to god's word in the bible, slavery is OK. Please ask Jesus and let us know, thank you.
There is a tendency to look at slavery as something of the past. But it is estimated that there are today over 12 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery?
The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Deuteronomy%2015.12-15); Ephesians 6:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ephesians%206.9); Colossians 4:1 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Colossians%204.1)), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was more a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.
The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible most definitely does condemn race-based slavery. Consider the slavery the Hebrews experienced when they were in Egypt. The Hebrews were slaves, not by choice, but because they were Hebrews (Exodus 13:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Exodus%2013.14)). The plagues God poured out on Egypt demonstrate how God feels about racial slavery (Exodus 7-11). So, yes, the Bible does condemn some forms of slavery. At the same time, the Bible does seem to allow for other forms. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.
In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of "man-stealing" which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death" (Exodus 21:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Exodus%2021.16)). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are "ungodly and sinful" and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8-10 (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/1%20Timothy%201.8-10)).
Another crucial point is that the purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God's gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. A person who has truly experienced God's grace will in turn be gracious towards others. That would be the Bible's prescription for ending slavery.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 04, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
You know, you still have not explained why, according to god's word in the bible, slavery is OK. Please ask Jesus and let us know, thank you.
Slavery was permitted in the Bible because of sin in the world. It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered. God allows many things to happen in the world such as storms, famine, murder, etc. Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God. Instead, it is allowed. While many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves. So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists. God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.
- The Bible acknowledged the slave's status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.21); Lev. 25:46 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2025.46)).
- The Bible restricted the master's power over the slave. (Ex. 21:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.20))
- The slave was a member of the master's household (Lev. 22:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2022.11)).
- The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Exodus%2020.10); Deut. 5:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%205.14)).
- The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Gen.%2017.13); Exodus 12:44 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Exodus%2012.44); Lev. 22:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2022.11)).
- The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2023.16-17)).
- The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.2); Deut. 15:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2015.12)).
- When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2015.14)).
The reality of slavery cannot be denied. "Slave labor played a minor economic role in the ancient Near East, for privately-owned slaves functioned more as domestic servants than as an agricultural or industrial labor force."1 (http://carm.org/slavery#footnote1_onpkc9b)
Magzimus Leviticus
Ecclesiastes 1:9
"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."
I understand and agree with this reference to human behaviour and the human condition, if it is read
as an allegory.
But if it were taken literally, I'd be inclined, as may many others, to question what constitutes new.
Here for example is a list of new atomic elements "under the sun".
New, because they never previously existed naturally within the solar system, and only came into existence
by human endevour.
This following list and explanation is found here. http://www.buzzle.com/articles/synthetic-elements.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/synthetic-elements.html)
List of Synthetic Elements
There are 118 elements in the periodic table, out of which 92 are natural elements and the remaining are synthetic elements. Technetium (atomic number 43) was the first synthetic element discovered, that filled the mysterious gap between the elements, Molybdenum (atomic weight 42) and Ruthenium (atomic weight 44) in the periodic table. Promethium (atomic number 61), Astatine (atomic number 85), Francium (atomic number 87) and the transuranium elements constitute the synthetic elements. Transuranium elements are those elements whose atomic number is greater than Uranium (atomic weight 92). Here's the list of all the synthetic elements.
Element Symbol At. No.
Technetium Tc 43
Promethium Pm 61
Astatine At 85
Francium Fr 87
Neptunium Np 93
Plutonium Pu 94
Americium Am 95
Curium Cm 96
Berkelium Bk 97
Californium Cf 98
Einsteinium Es 99
Fermium Fm 100
Mendelevium Md 101
Nobelium No 102
Element Symbol At. No.
Lawrencium Lr 103
Rutherfordium Rf 104
Dubnium Db 105
Seaborgium Sg 106
Bohrium Bh 107
Hassium Hs 108
Meitnerium Mt 95
Darmstadtium Ds 110
Roentgenium Rg 111
Copernicium Cn 112
Ununtrium Uut 114
Ununpentium Uup 115
Ununseptium Uus 117
Ununoctium Uuo 118
Hmmm ..... ? KneeDeep
Quote from: hoptoad on November 03, 2012, 04:42:29 AM
Any designer that would deliberately create a simple single celled organism such as an amoeba, with two hundred times more complexity than that required for a multi celled organism like a human being, could hardly be described as intelligent. So much design overkill and wasted building resources would indicate a lack of intelligent forethought, and poor design inception.
Quote from: CuriousChris on November 03, 2012, 12:23:50 AM
That's not true at all. In fact it is a strong argument FOR evolution.
You have the wrong end of the stick altogether. If DNA was the result of intelligent design then perhaps it would be more efficient. Therefore an inefficient bloated bit of code points to a poor design, what one would expect if design was purely random.
No, I have the right end of the stick. I never said the amoeba was two hundred times more complex than a human being (both of you made this same mistake). I said in reply #1067 to hoptoad, "So,
according to your logic, the amoeba dubia is 200 times more complex than humans and should have evolved into a much higher life form than people.
This isn't the case, so DNA disproves evolution and proves an intelligent designer or Creator (God)!".
There is a small portion of the human genome that codes for proteins (less than 2% - genes). The other 98% of the human genome is called junk DNA by evolutionists, saying it has no apparent purpose, that is until you account for millions if not billions of mutations based on random unguided processes that no longer have a phenotype in modern humans. As scientists of the ENCODE project (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/science/far-from-junk-dna-dark-matter-proves-crucial-to-health.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) delved into the "junk" parts of the DNA that are not actual genes containing instructions for proteins, they discovered a complex system that controls genes. It includes a system of 4 million switches that, acting like dimmer switches for lights, control which genes are used in a cell and when they are used, and determine, for instance, whether a cell becomes a liver cell or a neuron. 30,0000 genes coded with 4 million dimmer like switches for control shows much more complexity than the amoeba genome which is coded mostly for proteins with a lack of control switches.
DNA is very efficient without any bloated bits of code with no design overkill or wasted building resources, and this indicates an Intelligent Designer!
Gravock
Monkey's Uncle?
Evolutionists have trumpeted the similarity of the chimpanzee genome to that of humans, claiming that since the chimpanzee DNA profile matched ours up to 98% (debated number) that this was proof of evolution. However, the 98% number related only to the 2% of the respective genomes that code for protein.
Given that, the Encode Project findings indicate that the vast majority of the two genomes are totally unrelated. In fact the extreme differences between the two species non coding DNA regions is too large to have occurred in the period alleged to have existed between the supposed evolution of chimps and man.
Gravock
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 04, 2012, 09:41:24 AM
I am not shouting. I use all caps on certain words for "emphasis". I use bold face for long rebuttels, so that the reader can determine easily, at a glance the questioner, vs the rebuttel.
I quote the Word of God, because man's "opinion" is nonsense, and it is only "God's opinion" on any given subject that counts. Even if the reader does not believe in God, it does NOT (all caps given for emphasis, not shouting... ;) ) change the truth of God's Word, nor the certainty of which it will come to pass. "Heaven and Earth will pass away but my word shall abide forever." "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God."
So, I share with the readers what the Lord's thoughts are on the given subject. For that is REALLY what is important. :)
P.S. To answer your question, I do not judge another man's servant. They serve the Lord. That is between they and he. How do I know he did not tell them to stand where they are and speak what they are speaking?
Peace to you,
Bruce
I will assume then you are not well versed in Internet etiquette. Using ALL CAPS is considered the height of bad manners. it is the equivalent of shouting down someone you are talking to.
With respect to the street corner shouters. I want to ask you and the other faithers what they think of them. You support them as "doing gods work' So I'll assume you can find some scripture somewhere to back that statement up?
I have imagined having a conversation something like the following with one, although I am not suicidal enough to actually do it.
Imaginary conversation with a spruiker
Me: Hi, I have been wanting to ask you about your preaching for a long time, may I?
Them: PLEASE YES, oops sorry force of habit.
Me: How many souls would you need to save to make your preaching worthwhile
Them: I would be happy just saving one soul.
Me: Do you believe we are responsible for our actions?
Them: Yes we are all responsible for what we do.
Me: So why do you do this?
Them: God has called on me to do this. He has spoken to me personally so I spread his word.
Me: So its gods will that you do this?
Them: Yes
Me: Are those who would drive a wedge between God and his people responsible for their actions?
Them: Yes they are. They would burn in hell for depriving God of even one soul.
Me: So you are going to hell then?
Them: What No Err
Me: See these people around here, Many like me are thinking I do not want to be involved in the religion this guy is shouting about. How many do you think you have turned away from God today alone? I'd be guessing at least 20
Them: ????
Me: Guess I'll see you in hell then.
Consider the term "junk DNA." Implicit in this term is the view that because the genome of an organism has been cobbled together through a long, undirected evolutionary process, the genome is a patchwork of which only limited portions are essential to the organism. Thus on an evolutionary view we expect a lot of useless DNA.
If, on the other hand, organisms are designed, we expect DNA, as much as possible, to exhibit function. And indeed, the most recent findings suggest that designating DNA as "junk" merely cloaks our current lack of knowledge about function (Dembski 1998)
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 05, 2012, 05:01:31 AM
Monkey's Uncle?
Evolutionists have trumpeted the similarity of the chimpanzee genome to that of humans, claiming that since the chimpanzee DNA profile matched ours up to 98% (debated number) that this was proof of evolution. However, the 98% number related only to the 2% of the respective genomes that code for protein.
Given that, the Encode Project findings indicate that the vast majority of the two genomes are totally unrelated. In fact the extreme differences between the two species non coding DNA regions is too large to have occurred in the period alleged to have existed between the supposed evolution of chimps and man.
Gravock
As I said
1/ I personally don't believe in random mutations. There is a lot more going on. because we don't know the whole truth doesn't mean we wont eventually know it.
2/ You are still calling on the god of the gaps to fill in the missing bits.
But I have done some reading of late I realised my view of the Jewish beliefs was highly suspect as it was taught to me by Christians. I have found it most intersting so far and will continue my study.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 04, 2012, 09:29:34 PM
Slavery was permitted in the Bible because of sin in the world. It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered. God allows many things to happen in the world such as storms, famine, murder, etc. Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God. Instead, it is allowed. While many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves. So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists. God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.
The Bible acknowledged the slave's status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.21); Lev. 25:46 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2025.46)).
The Bible restricted the master's power over the slave. (Ex. 21:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.20))
The slave was a member of the master's household (Lev. 22:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2022.11)).
The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Exodus%2020.10); Deut. 5:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%205.14)).
The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Gen.%2017.13); Exodus 12:44 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Exodus%2012.44); Lev. 22:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2022.11)).
The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2023.16-17)).
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.2); Deut. 15:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2015.12)).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2015.14)).
The reality of slavery cannot be denied. "Slave labor played a minor economic role in the ancient Near East, for privately-owned slaves functioned more as domestic servants than as an agricultural or industrial labor force."1 (http://carm.org/slavery#footnote1_onpkc9b)
Magzimus Leviticus
Yes, and in Exodus 21:20-21 it is said that you should not beat your slave so much that he or she immediately dies, but if the slave dies after a day or two, then that is alright, because the slave is your money, whatever that means.
And what is this business you say about tolerating murder? The prohibition on murder is in the commandments. How about another commandment: you shall not own other people?
The bottom line is that slavery is evil, and this ever loving god should have put something in his perfect word that deals with this beyond merely "regulating" it. And even the regulations are not very humane. It is still ok to beat your slaves, they just have to live a day or two after the beating. If they die after that, it is no crime.
This may help all of you concentrate more on overunity and less on overgoddity.
Just repeat it about 1000 times.
This will lower your resistance, increase your inductance and provide more reactance to your life.
hehehe
wattsup
Quote from: gravityblock on November 05, 2012, 04:14:17 AM
No, I have the right end of the stick. I never said the amoeba was two hundred times more complex than a human being (both of you made this same mistake). I said in reply #1067 to hoptoad, "So, according to your logic, the amoeba dubia is 200 times more complex than humans and should have evolved into a much higher life form than people. This isn't the case, so DNA disproves evolution and proves an intelligent designer or Creator (God)!".
There is a small portion of the human genome that codes for proteins (less than 2% - genes). The other 98% of the human genome is called junk DNA by evolutionists, saying it has no apparent purpose, that is until you account for millions if not billions of mutations based on random unguided processes that no longer have a phenotype in modern humans. As scientists of the ENCODE project (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/06/science/far-from-junk-dna-dark-matter-proves-crucial-to-health.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) delved into the "junk" parts of the DNA that are not actual genes containing instructions for proteins, they discovered a complex system that controls genes. It includes a system of 4 million switches that, acting like dimmer switches for lights, control which genes are used in a cell and when they are used, and determine, for instance, whether a cell becomes a liver cell or a neuron. 30,0000 genes coded with 4 million dimmer like switches for control shows much more complexity than the amoeba genome which is coded mostly for proteins with a lack of control switches.
DNA is very efficient without any bloated bits of code with no design overkill or wasted building resources, and this indicates an Intelligent Designer!
Gravock
Gravock,
When closely studying the developments in DNA research, a quite obvious question arises that call for an answer.
What makes scientists believe DNA to be the code behind the structure of the living organism? To me this seems to be nothing but a wild assumption.
There is not one single piece of evidence that DNA is responsible for the actual shape of any life form. Still we all take for granted that DNA is the code of Life.
The only functions known by science today that is linked to DNA is purely metabolic functions limited to single cells and nothing whatsoever beyond that. There is not one single evidence of DNA being the actual cause behind the multicellular structure of the organism.
One thing that clearly indicates this is the hitherto complete absence of new artificially manufactured organisms by man. At least one or two altogether new plant species would long ago have been the result of DNA modification experiments. But there is not a trace of such developement.
Instead everything we read about concerning DNA altered organisms are but locally induced intercellular modifications, so we seem to be completely limited to the alteration of the cell functions, such as the adding of genes from the animal kingdom into plants like the making of corn crops with hightened insectiside resistance or tomatoes by adding a fish gene creating tomatoes with more durable skin cell structure. The ability to incorporate animal DNA into plants indicates that the DNA functions are purely restricted to metabolic control of intercellular functions.
I personally believe DNA has nothing to do with the main structure of a specific organism, DNA obviously only controls and executes the metabolic functions of each single cell, just like an engine computer controls the function of the motor parts without controling the shape of the engine.
Now, were does this line of thought lead to, regarding the probability of god?
Well, as far as I am concerned, if this obvious inability to create new species continues to be a fact, this may actually indicate that the structure source for living organisms lies beyond our observable realm.
It's here the idea of an Intent behind it all comes in. Not neccessarily a god, like the ones depicted by religion, but likewise an Intent behind all physical form and function.
Now, if all life forms are the result of an all encompassing Intent, it also explains why there has not yet been one single evidence in the scientific community backing up the evolutionary theory of Darwin.
Likewise this explains the strange and sudden alterations in flora and fauna on earth, such as the sudden explosive introduction of new mammal species at the boundary of the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event about 65.5 million years ago. The enormous abundance of new evolving mammals in this period highly questions the old Darwinian outlook, since many of these species evolved too swiftly to be the result of natural selection. Many of the known periods involving grand scale altering of life forms in the history of earth are executed within a very small time frame, clearly indicating the Darwinian theory of evolution as wrong.
Based on this I give the probability of Intent a 6 out of 10 probability. (The probability of a subjective and caring god is obviously zero, since the only sign of such a deity is the belief of the faithers. Everything else on earth tells you there is no such discriminative caring god. But an indifferent Intent is something altogether different, and fully probable.
Gwandau
Quote from: gravityblock on November 05, 2012, 04:14:17 AM
snip.. I said in reply #1067 to hoptoad, "So, according to your logic, the amoeba dubia is 200 times more complex than humans and should have evolved into a much higher life form than people.
snip..
Actually you said it in reply to Qwert. I only repeated what you had posted.
Cheers
75 pages now... and still not a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof has been presented by the godbots for the existence of their imaginary godfairy... ::)
imagine that!
Welcome back Wilby,
This thread is getting a bit dull without your hilarious input.
And I am sure the godbots are looking forward to your comments. ;D ;D ;D
Gwandau
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 05:42:54 PM
75 pages now... and still not a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof has been presented by the godbots for the existence of their imaginary godfairy... ::)
imagine that!
Imagine all the people ........ JL
Cheers
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 05:42:54 PM
75 pages now... and still not a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof has been presented by the godbots for the existence of their imaginary godfairy... ::)
imagine that!
Do you need a candle to be lit to see the sun? Of course not! Likewise, asking for material evidence or a logical proof of God is like asking for a candle to be lit so you may see Him.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 05, 2012, 06:36:58 PM
Do you need a candle to be lit to see the sun? Of course not! Likewise, asking for material evidence or a logical proof of God is like asking for a candle to be lit so you may see Him.
Gravock
so that's another tacit admission from you that you have neither extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend... ::)
odin allfather will be displeased with you...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 07:24:30 PM
so that's another tacit admission from you that you have neither extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend... ::)
odin allfather will be displeased with you...
Apparently you're spiritually blind. Let's assume for a moment you're physically blind also. What material evidence or logical proof may be offered to you in order to prove the existence of the sun? If we say, the heat you feel when you're outside is logical proof for the existence of the sun. You're reply would then be, I feel heat from a stove, an engine, from another person, etc., so this isn't logical proof for the existence of the sun. In other words, we do have material evidence and logical proof for the existence of God, but you refuse to accept what is offered to you as proof. The fault lies with you, and not on us.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 05, 2012, 07:44:52 PM
Apparently you're spiritually blind. Let's assume for a moment you're physically blind also. What material evidence or logical proof may be offered to you in order to prove the existence of the sun? If we say, the heat you feel when you're outside is logical proof for the existence of the sun. You're reply would then be, I feel heat from a stove, an engine, from another person, etc., so this isn't logical proof for the existence of the sun. In other words, we do have material evidence and logical proof for the existence of God, but you refuse to accept what is offered to you as proof. The fault lies with you, and not on us.
Gravock
apparently you're a mental midget!
hey godtard... what methods have you used to validate your godfairy? and what methods have you used to invalidate all the other godfairies? such as odin, ra, vishnu, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam?
i'll wait... ::)
odin allfather is all mighty... because the poetic edda says so... dumb ass
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 05:42:54 PM
75 pages now... and still not a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof has been presented by the godbots for the existence of their imaginary godfairy... ::)
imagine that!
76 pages now... sofar the scientific minds (blinds) have not tried to explain the origin of universe to disprove the existance of God.
Quote from: Newton II on November 05, 2012, 10:19:56 PM
76 pages now... sofar the scientific minds (blinds) have not tried to explain the origin of universe to disprove the existance of God.
you're the asinine delusional person claiming god exists you idiot... ::) your claim is for YOU to prove... not for me to disprove. ::) similarly, one need not demonstrate the non existence of martians living below sweden in order to demonstrate that faith in such a proposition is asinine.
i thank you for another tacit admission from you that you have neither extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend...
again... tu stultus es!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 10:22:59 PM
you're the asinine delusional person claiming god exists you idiot... ::) your claim is for YOU to prove... not for me to disprove. ::) similarly, one need not demonstrate the non existence of martians living below sweden in order to demonstrate that faith in such a proposition is asinine.
i thank you for another tacit admission from you that you have neither extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend...
again... tu stultus es!
My experinces made me to believe in God. I don't have any necessity to prove the existance of God to all idiots. I am not going to lose my ass if you don't believe in God. If you explain the origin of this universe, I agree that God does not exist and my experiences are due to some psychiatric reasons.
Quote from: Newton II on November 05, 2012, 10:38:11 PM
My experinces made me to believe in God. I don't have any necessity to prove the existance of God to all idiots. I am not going to lose my ass if you don't believe in God. If you explain the origin of this universe, I agree that God does not exist and my experiences are due to some psychiatric reasons.
your "experinces" don't mean jack squat to me you idiot. just as my experiences with odin allfather don't mean anything to you godbots... ::)
if you have no necessity to prove your imaginary friend to me then shut the hell up about him... OR expect me to call you out when you say stupid shit.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 10:03:51 PM
apparently you're a mental midget!
hey godtard... what methods have you used to validate your godfairy? and what methods have you used to invalidate all the other godfairies? such as odin, ra, vishnu, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam?
i'll wait... ::)
odin allfather is all mighty... because the poetic edda says so... dumb ass
What method have I used to validate my God? The Holy Spirit! What method have I used to invalidate all other gods, such as odin, ra, vshnu, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam? The Holy Spirit!
mental midget, godtard, godfairy, dumb ass? <------- Looks like someone stole your Joy. When you can rise above this childish behavior, please let me know so we can have an intelligent conversation.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 10:03:51 PM
apparently you're a mental midget!
hey godtard... what methods have you used to validate your godfairy? and what methods have you used to invalidate all the other godfairies? such as odin, ra, vishnu, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam?
i'll wait... ::)
odin allfather is all mighty... because the poetic edda says so... dumb ass
From the obvious violent verbal reaction to God and His goodness, this reply is great evidence that God exists from the one that has such reactions against Him (even though he can't see Him, it is clear that He is present or there would be no argument). No need for any more proof. His own reactions reveal that God does indeed exist or there would be no reaction against Him at all if He did not exist. Case solved by the very one seeking the answer. A great display of the scientific method indeed!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 10:40:48 PM
just as my experiences with odin allfather don't mean anything to you godbots... ::)
Tell us about it.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Liberty on November 05, 2012, 10:48:28 PM
From the obvious violent verbal reaction to God and His goodness, this reply is great evidence that God exists from the one that has such reactions against Him (even though he can't see Him, it is clear that He is present or there would be no argument). No need for any more proof. His own reactions reveal that God does indeed exist or there would be no reaction against Him at all if He did not exist. Case solved by the very one seeking the answer. A great display of the scientific method indeed!
Well said and case closed!
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 10:40:48 PM
your "experinces" don't mean jack squat to me you idiot. just as my experiences with odin allfather don't mean anything to you godbots... ::)
if you have no necessity to prove your imaginary friend to me then shut the hell up about him... OR expect me to call you out when you say stupid shit.
If you don't have explanation on the origin of universe and paranormals, shut your ass and wait till somebody explains it. An idiot should not think that all the people on this earth are idiots.
Quote from: Liberty on November 05, 2012, 10:48:28 PM
From the obvious violent verbal reaction to God and His goodness, this reply is great evidence that God exists from the one that has such reactions against Him (even though he can't see Him, it is clear that He is present or there would be no argument). No need for any more proof. His own reactions reveal that God does indeed exist or there would be no reaction against Him at all if He did not exist. Case solved by the very one seeking the answer. A great display of the scientific method indeed!
Seems very logical to me. ;) Such hatred. It must be toward God.
And he defends Rosmary Ainsley who he well knows doesnt have a clue or she is lying. With more investigation Rose has lied like it was a contest to see who lies more. From one post to the next contradictions and twisting. He supports her lies and attacks TK for showing real proofs that her circuit doesnt do as she claims.
Wilbert is not really interested in truths.
So Wilbert supports untruths, and lies. A servant of Lucifer. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 05, 2012, 10:42:25 PM
What method have I used to validate my God? The Holy Spirit! What method have I used to invalidate all other gods, such as odin, ra, vshnu, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam? The Holy Spirit!
mental midget, godtard, godfairy, dumb ass? <------- Looks like someone stole your Joy. When you can rise above this childish behavior, please let me know so we can have an intelligent conversation.
Gravock
"When you can rise above this childish behavior, please let me know so we can have an intelligent conversation."
Not likely. Some people never grow up. ;)
It used to be that the earth was flat, and everyone believed it. If someone said it was not, they would send out the Wilby patrol to deny and abuse the claimants..
They once thought the Earth was the center of the universe. When someone said that it wasnt, they sent out the Wilby patrol to deny and abuse the claimants.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 05, 2012, 10:42:25 PM
What method have I used to validate my God? The Holy Spirit! What method have I used to invalidate all other gods, such as odin, ra, vshnu, etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam? The Holy Spirit!
mental midget, godtard, godfairy, dumb ass? <------- Looks like someone stole your Joy. When you can rise above this childish behavior, please let me know so we can have an intelligent conversation.
Gravock
when you stop responding with logical fallacies THEN we can have an intelligent conversation... what extant material evidence and/or logical proof do you have to present for the existence of this "holy spirit"? let me guess... another non sequitur... ::)
Quote from: Newton II on November 05, 2012, 10:56:55 PM
If you don't have explanation on the origin of universe and paranormals, shut your ass and wait till somebody explains it. An idiot should not think that all the people on this earth are idiots.
ODIN ALLFATHER DID IT YOU DUMB ASS!
Quote from: Magluvin on November 05, 2012, 11:21:52 PM
It used to be that the earth was flat, and everyone believed it. If someone said it was not, they would send out the Wilby patrol to deny and abuse the claimants..
They once thought the Earth was the center of the universe. When someone said that it wasnt, they sent out the Wilby patrol to deny and abuse the claimants.
Magzimus Leviticus
only idiots and godbots like you believed the earth flat... ::) anyone with two eyes (or even one) and half a brain can see the shadow of the earth on the moon and know it's not flat... even thousands of years ago.
thanks again for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have no more evidence for your imaginary friend than my 3 year old niece has for hers...
godtards... ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on November 05, 2012, 11:10:02 PM
Seems very logical to me. ;) Such hatred. It must be toward God.
you wouldn't know logic if it crawled up your leg and started biting the inside of your ass... ::)
Quote from: Magluvin on November 05, 2012, 11:10:02 PM
And he defends Rosmary Ainsley
liar. god hates liars magtard.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 11:37:04 PM
thanks again for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have no more evidence for you imaginary friend than my 3 year old niece has for hers...
godtards... ::)
Maybe DCS should be notified. We should pray for that poor girl. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 11:39:05 PM
liar. god hates liars magtard.
Its all in the TK tar baby thread. ;) Your slacking Wilbert. ::) You cant cover that up with 5 words. ;) At least not those ones. ;D
Magzimus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 11:34:24 PM
ODIN ALLFATHER DID IT YOU DUMB ASS!
Can you tell us more about that? ;)
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 11:34:24 PM
ODIN ALLFATHER DID IT YOU DUMB ASS!
IT CLEARLY INDICATES THAT YOU ARE A DOG ASS!
Wilby endeavored to return to his former state and became upset with God for making garments of skin (flesh) for his spiritual body. This is why Wilby has so much hatred towards God. He fails to realize God removed the light from him because he tried to exalt himself above God. He blames God instead of blaming himself.
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 05, 2012, 11:49:06 PM
Its all in the TK tar baby thread. ;) Your slacking Wilbert. ::) You cant cover that up with 5 words. ;) At least not those ones. ;D
Magzimus
then quote me you liar. ::)
you're making asinine claims you cannot substantiate... i see a pattern with you magtard...
Quote from: gravityblock on November 06, 2012, 12:07:07 AM
Wilby endeavored to return to his former state and became upset with God for making garments of skin (flesh) for his spiritual body. This is why Wilby has so much hatred towards God. He fails to realize God removed the light from him because he tried to exalt himself above God. He blames God instead of blaming himself.
Gravock
i am god you fucking moron... ::)
Quote from: Newton II on November 06, 2012, 12:00:01 AM
IT CLEARLY INDICATES THAT YOU ARE A DOG ASS!
there is your typical xtian sanctimony shining brightly... idiot.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 05, 2012, 11:51:40 PM
Can you tell us more about that? ;)
Magzimus leviticus
you can read all about it. ever heard of books? a library? the internet?
the 'universe' as you call it is actually the 'world tree'.
there are nine realms including midgard, or earth as you call it.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 12:22:52 AM
i am god you fucking moron... ::)
Yes, you're a self declared god with a lower case 'g', but you're not the God (Creator).
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 05, 2012, 11:44:49 PM
Maybe DCS should be notified. We should pray for that poor girl. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
notified of what? that you're a fucking retard?
pray for yourself godtard... she'll mature and come to embrace logic and reason in a year or two. whereas you... well, your posts speak volumes on that.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 06, 2012, 12:33:07 AM
Yes, you're a self declared god with a lower case 'g', but you're not the God (Creator).
Gravock
Amen to that my brother. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 06, 2012, 12:33:07 AM
Yes, you're a self declared god with a lower case 'g', but you're not the God (Creator).
Gravock
oh yes... your self declared the God (Creator)... ::)
do have any idea how asinine you sound? you declare this imaginary godfairy of yours, then refuse to present an single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for said imaginary friend and then have the sanctimonious temerity to denigrate me for using lowercase.
hey godtard... a capital 'G' is NOT extant material evidence... nor is it a logical proof... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 12:29:05 AM
you can read all about it. ever heard of books? a library? the internet?
the 'universe' as you call it is actually the 'world tree'.
there are nine realms including midgard, or earth as you call it.
What methods have you used to validate your god? and what methods have you used to invalidate all the other gods? ;)
Thank you for the tacit admission that you believe in your god that we cannot see. ;) And thanks for the tacit admission that you are a hypocrite. ;)
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 12:40:35 AM
do have any idea how asinine you sound?
Is that Neanderthal you are speaking there? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 12:24:11 AM
there is your typical xtian sanctimony shining brightly... idiot.
I am not a christian. My God says, idiots should be dealt with idiotic language.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 12:46:10 AM
Is that Neanderthal you are speaking there? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
That's the speech of some transitional species who has never appeared in the fossil records.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 12:40:35 AM
oh yes... your self declared the God (Creator)... ::)
do have any idea how asinine you sound? you declare this imaginary godfairy of yours, then refuse to present an single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for said imaginary friend and then have the sanctimonious temerity to denigrate me for using lowercase.
hey godtard... a capital 'G' is NOT extant material evidence... nor is it a logical proof... ::)
Oh looky! He can make capital letters! Aww, he missed all the ones in the middle there. Maybe some day he will get the hang of it. When he is all grown up. ;) He has his mind on other things right now. ::)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 12:43:37 AM
What methods have you used to validate your god? and what methods have you used to invalidate all the other gods? ;)
Thank you for the tacit admission that you believe in your god that we cannot see. ;) And thanks for the tacit admission that you are a hypocrite. ;)
Magzimus leviticus
i told you magtard... i am god. you can see me anytime you want. stop on over... ;)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 06, 2012, 12:57:33 AM
That's the speech of some transitional species who has never appeared in the fossil records.
Gravock
Lol. ;D Yeah, maybe thats it. ;) looks like this :o Maybe Alderburp, or whom ever he worships looks like this :-*
Magzimus Leviticus
you godtards are so easy to manipulate... you've burned another 3 pages and still not a single shred of extant material evidence nor logical proof for the existence of your imaginary savior/creator friend.
you're obviously NOT trying to convince any of us heathens so you must be trying to convince yourselves with all that proselytizing you're doing... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 12:59:43 AM
i told you magtard... i am god. you can see me anytime you want. stop on over... ;)
So we can do an exorcism?
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 06, 2012, 01:06:48 AM
So we can do an exorcism?
Gravock
i dare you billy... i double dog dare you. ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 01:09:11 AM
i dare you billy... i double dog dare you. ;)
Is that you, or the legion speaking? Are you afraid of a little Holy water sprinkled on you? If there is no God, then a few drops of Holy water on your forehead isn't a big deal.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 12:59:43 AM
i told you magtard... i am god. you can see me anytime you want. stop on over... ;)
Well I was figurin you could just pop on over here. It would save a lot of time eh? Come on, be the good god that you accuse the God of Abraham of not being. What do ya like for snacks? Bat wings? Live fly pie? Nice bottle of plasma? We can curse all night at the campfire. You can teach your niece some of that new vocabulary you have been showing us. Oh, she probably knows some already. ::) We know you cant hold it in very long. ;) Might be an enlarged prostate. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 01:04:28 AM
you godtards are so easy to manipulate... you've burned another 3 pages and still not a single shred of extant material evidence nor logical proof for the existence of your imaginary savior/creator friend.
you're obviously NOT trying to convince any of us heathens so you must be trying to convince yourselves with all that proselytizing you're doing... ::)
Ahh, the Wilbert agenda. To clutter page after page by way of 'manipulation' Thanks for that tacit admission. Your a good man. ;)
Boy, Im glad you say the things you do and the way you say them. Its a really good sign that your crazy. ;) The Christians are safe. Nobody is ill enough to follow your , what did Biden say? Malarkey! Yeah thats what he said, malarkey.
"...with all that proselytizing you're doing..."
Well I have never!!! ;D
Hey, your god called, sent me a picture. :-* Cute, but all that makeup.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 01:16:57 AM
Come on, be the good god that you accuse the God of Abraham of not being.
you'll just have to have faith... ;)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 06, 2012, 01:11:49 AM
Is that you, or the legion speaking? Are you afraid of a little Holy water sprinkled on you? If there is no God, then a few drops of Holy water on your forehead isn't a big deal.
Gravock
that's me. not at all afraid, you do realize that i did go to a parochial school for my primary education?
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 12:43:37 AM
What methods have you used to validate your god? and what methods have you used to invalidate all the other gods? ;)
the very same methods you godtards have used for your god... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 01:50:45 AM
that's me. not at all afraid, you do realize that i did go to a parochial school for my primary education?
That's logical proof we can plant the seed, but we can't make it grow or produce good fruits.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 06, 2012, 02:03:17 AM
That's logical proof we can plant the seed, but we can't make it grow or produce good fruits.
Gravock
LOL you godtards are so silly.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 02:03:17 AM
the very same methods you godtards have used for your god... ::)
Well you can answer yourself instead of filling pages with asking us for our methods cant you? ;) That is if it is the exact same method like you state above. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 02:09:37 AM
Well you can answer yourself instead of filling pages with asking us for our methods cant you? ;) That is if it is the exact same method like you state above. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
i just did godtard... i used the very same methods you godtards have.
and i didn't say "the exact same"... don't misquote me godtard or you shall feel my godly wrath. i said "the very same".
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 02:17:34 AM
i just did godtard... i used the very same methods you godtards have.
and i didn't say "the exact same"... don't misquote me godtard or you shall feel my wrath. i said "the very same".
Okydoky. ::)
Ive felt your wrath. Your out of shape. ;) Night Wilby. :-*
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 02:23:13 AM
Okydoky. ::)
Ive felt your wrath. Your out of shape. ;) Night Wilby. :-*
Magzimus Leviticus
blessings of odin allfather be upon ye.
omnis dominus... he be aight.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 02:17:34 AM
and i didn't say "the exact same"... don't misquote me godtard or you shall feel my godly wrath. i said "the very same".
Hmm, Lets examine this for a moment.
If I said "Wilbys wrath is 'exactly the same' as whip cream in a balloon"
Or if I said "Wilbys wrath is 'the very same' as whip cream in a balloon"
Is there a difference in the claims? ;)
I would say they are both right. lol
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 02:31:58 AM
Hmm, Lets examine this for a moment.
If I said "Wilbys wrath is 'exactly the same' as whip cream in a balloon"
Or if I said "Wilbys wrath is 'the very same' as whip cream in a balloon"
Is there a difference in the claims? ;)
I would say they are both right. lol
Magzimus Leviticus
what needs examining is your head... ::)
@ALL
I don't care if God exists or not. That's his problem. If he did make me, he certainly did not do it for me to spend my life figuring out something that is not any of my business. That's his business.
Mine is to know if I exist or not while I am existing. I'll have eternity to figure out the God thing and I am sure God will be pleased to know at least some are more interested in living then thinking about past people or writings or rules designed by past persons who were just as lost in their day. Even if an Alien landed at my door today with a solid gold book of truths, it or he or she would be just as lost. If Mark Twain was alive 2000 years ago, we'd be praying to Huckleberry Finn.
It does not matter, intelligent design, evolution, creationism, religion, you can worship crabfish for all I care. It's your time so you spend it the way you want until it's over. There is only one truth and that is life and being alive. All your ideas are just distractions on this one truth, everyone trying to pull the cover on their side of the bed. This whole thread is a typical microcosm of the world we live in today so congratulations to all for portraying that sad reality with such a high degree of fidelity.
The way I see it is very simple, we are all living on this thin slice of toast called Earth riding around a major toaster ball called the Sun, so what other problem is there Man. We have all been lied to for so many generations and generations that no one knows why they are alive on this toast anyways.
We were all programmed at a tender age when you all remember those long nights as small innocent minds when crying in your beds because you thought "if Jesus was ever mad at ME, will I be burning in hell for eternity". Imagine all those nights alone trying to reconcile that one scary thought into any type of loving religion based ideology, as a child, you were asked to absorb such hard, cruel, non-human and unattainable notions of life that you were totally brainwashed into submission to someones God. They get you at a young age and it's up to you to fight out of it or abdicate you own will. So we all came from that same broth, regardless of christian, muslim, hindu, protestant, mormon, or crabfishionist. It does not matter. We have all been brainwashed. Even the atheists have been brainwashed into thinking they must believe in nothing. None of those are valid. Just BE. BE BE BE BE BE BE BE BE BE BE. That's all that counts. That and be as nice as you can to everyone else. Yes, treat them as you would like to be treated, but don't take that for any God revealed religion. Take it for being a normal human being without any religious attributes because being is part of our heritage on this piece of toast. It does not mean you don't fight if you have too. Turning the other cheek was a rule given by those who beat you up in the first place. That one convenient rule was added by Roman decree to quell the resistance and hold power over the Jesusites. It sucked in so many who were slaughtered without lifting a finger.
The power is in you. It always was in you. But others want you to think the power is in them or in their book, or their scrolls, or their koran, or whatever, always in them, but never in you. If you want it to be in you, then you have to lick someones ass while you memorize their laws, edicts and mystical or supernatural stories. But the only person you can change is you, for you, by you and not by anyone or anything else. Imagine if only you changed, how many others would this effect. If you could calm your anger, how many children will sleep better tonight.
None of you are qualified to discuss this dead end subject with your present state of mind. One side says my "faith" is enough to warrant my actions, the other side says your "faith" is the reason for your blindness, so it is an even split. Both sides lose and both sides are still just as lost. Fantastic isn't it.
For me and maybe for those that may be interested, the following LIVING PERSON (not a book) on this planet today is my Main person for peace on this planet. For decades and decades he has trailed along this toast ball explaining what it means to be in peace and how it is possible to live it right now without any preconceived and obligatory notions. Peace is enough.
http://theypi.net/video.php?title=2012-Nordic-Peace-Conference-Address&id=427
Maybe I can add......
You can spend all your time pissed off at the world and the world will gladly oblige by spending all its time pissing you off. However you see, you will attract towards you. hehehe
World says to God: "Hey, this guy really seems to like being pissed off all the time".
Generous God says to World: "OK, give him what he wants. Piss him off some more".
The main difference is simple. You can read about how to make a great plate of spaghetti and you can know all the things there is to know about it. You can recite the procedures 1000 times per day while thinking and thinking and thinking so hard about the spaghetti and the rules, but, nothing will equal you actually sitting down and truly enjoying the real meal, right here, right now. You don't have to wait to die before you taste it and live it right now, here, while you are alive staring your world's best friend "YOU".
Just to say this last thing, your mind is not your friend. It is the mind that screws up your life. This mind can tell you to overly smoke or drink, it can tell you to steal, to hurt, to kill, to hate, to hold lifelong grudges, to be lazy or to manipulate or that your life of cheating is ok, or, that your life is worthless so why not jump off that bridge, it can create so much misery with the most mundane events and it can keep you in a state of want until you close your eyes for eternity. Your mind is the one telling you that helping the world be better can only be done for a price. Your mind is not your friend but like a wild badly nourished stallion that your inherent self must fight during all your lifetime, but this fight is rarely won without mastering the mind.
So.... your mind also has a few control mechanisms that no one wants you to develop because this will free you from the minds illusions and all those powerful suggestive illusions created by others and your past. It needs to be practiced to perfect and strengthen your present state over that of your mind. The techniques are simple but profound, real and life opening. You are not required to leave your present religion or belief system or to do anything. I cannot teach them to you because I would just make a mess of it. It is free so just find it in your local area. Or if you are lucky like me, it will find you via your brother or parents or son or wife or friend. You won't see this on TV like the evangelists asking you to save your soul by donating. Man oh man. We are so lost but little by little this is changing. If you knew the level of control all these powers have via generations of the cabal and their tentacles in all facets of our life on this toast, you will never sleep again. It is too big to fathom so just work on yourself.
Take it anyway you want. If you need to know more just Google "Prem Rawat" and a major city near you. I do not feel qualified to say any more so good luck in your lives guys.
I won't say any more or respond so it is pointless to attack me because in the end, your life is yours to use in any way you feel is right and regardless if I anyone agrees or not, I can only respect that for what it is.
Now let's get back to work. Please. This thread is just getting more and more disgusting and should never have started. OUers should never stoop so low. We should always keep our personal isms to ourselves and keep a neutral ground otherwise sparks will always fly (Hmmmmmm). I myself have already said to much so I am very sorry for that.
wattsup
Quote from: Magluvin on November 04, 2012, 09:29:34 PM
Slavery was permitted in the Bible because of sin in the world. It existed before the Jews were formed as a nation and it existed after Israel was conquered. God allows many things to happen in the world such as storms, famine, murder, etc. Slavery, like divorce, is not preferred by God. Instead, it is allowed. While many nations treated their slaves very badly, the Bible gave many rights and privileges to slaves. So, even though it isn't the best way to deal with people, because God has allowed man freedom, slavery then exists. God instructed the Israelites to treat them properly.
The Bible acknowledged the slave's status as the property of the master (Ex. 21:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.21); Lev. 25:46 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2025.46)).
The Bible restricted the master's power over the slave. (Ex. 21:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.20))
The slave was a member of the master's household (Lev. 22:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2022.11)).
The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Exodus%2020.10); Deut. 5:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%205.14)).
The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Gen.%2017.13); Exodus 12:44 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Exodus%2012.44); Lev. 22:11 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Lev.%2022.11)).
The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2023.16-17)).
The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Ex.%2021.2); Deut. 15:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2015.12)).
When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14 (http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/Deut.%2015.14)).
The reality of slavery cannot be denied. "Slave labor played a minor economic role in the ancient Near East, for privately-owned slaves functioned more as domestic servants than as an agricultural or industrial labor force."1 (http://carm.org/slavery#footnote1_onpkc9b)
Magzimus Leviticus
Sick nothing less than sick
Wattsup... I guess, all faithers, or at least those crabfishionists pray right now for you, to change your mind...
Wow, I finally gave into my curiosity and had to check out this thread, wondering as to why it even exists on this board.
Hey guys this is a free energy discussion group, not a free religion discussion group.
I did learn a new word that I like "Godtard" I think Godtards are pretty much the same a what I call "Nastards" which are the folks who drive around town believing that they are actually in a Nascar race. They usually drive Red vehicles. I suspect it is required by law so that sane people can identify them easily and avoid them. Also the bigger the vehicle and or the greater number of wheels it has, the bigger the tard inside. Plus the extra bonus prestige points for the 6 inch tractor trailer exhaust stacks in the back of a full size pickup truck and the large obligatory sticker the tard payed extra money for to advertise the fact that they have an CUMMINS TURBO DIESEL on board.
I not saying that all Godtards are Nastards and vice versa, but many are.
One thing for sure all Godtards and Nastards are Fucktards
The best part of them was either strained through a sheet or ran down the crack of their Mums' ass prior to conception, or R.A.P.E. if your an Republican living in the states.
Quote from: ZathEros on November 06, 2012, 11:18:01 AM
Wow, I finally gave into my curiosity and had to check out this thread, wondering as to why it even exists on this board.
Hey guys this is a free energy discussion group, not a free religion discussion group.
I did learn a new word that I like "Godtard" I think Godtards are pretty much the same a what I call "Nastards" which are the folks who drive around town believing that they are actually in a Nascar race. They usually drive Red vehicles. I suspect it is required by law so that sane people can identify them easily and avoid them. Also the bigger the vehicle and or the greater number of wheels it has, the bigger the tard inside. Plus the extra bonus prestige points for the 6 inch tractor trailer exhaust stacks in the back of a full size pickup truck and the large obligatory sticker the tard payed extra money for to advertise the fact that they have an CUMMINS TURBO DIESEL on board.
I not saying that all Godtards are Nastards and vice versa, but many are.
One thing for sure all Godtards and Nastards are Fucktards
The best part of them was either strained through a sheet or ran down the crack of their Mums' ass prior to conception, or R.A.P.E. if your an Republican living in the states.
Wow, really? Intelligence of this high caliber and is it any wonder we are still burning fossil fuel?
Oh, and in the "states" we say Mom. Mums are flowers. And you probably love the liberal demoncrats. How is that socialism working out for you, eh? Got debt, will travel, eh? Tell you what, when the Obamanation of a president is voted out of office today, you can elect him to come run your country. Now THAT is funny! Hehehe
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 06, 2012, 11:34:09 AM
Wow, really? Intelligence of this high caliber and is it any wonder we are still burning fossil fuel?
Oh, and in the "states" we say Mom. Mums are flowers. And you probably love the liberal demoncrats. How is that socialism working out for you, eh? Got debt, will travel, eh? Tell you what, when the Obamanation of a president is voted out of office today, you can elect him to come run your country. Now THAT is funny! Hehehe
Did your Jesus predict to you that Obama will lose? If so, that is great. Finally, a falsifiable experiment on the existence of god!
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 06, 2012, 11:36:58 AM
Did your Jesus predict to you that Obama will lose? If so, that is great. Finally, a falsifiable experiment on the existence of god!
This way, we see at least, who is who...
Wasn't Santa Klaus invented by Coca Cola ?
Wasn't the Bible invented by a Pope-King ?
(Who said: "I'll keep them dumb, if you keep them poor")
If you are older than 5, and you still believe this mind setters,
You will have a long way to go to grow adult.
If you look for (over)unity this way, you will never succeed.
Because you are single sided.
You will first have to fully understand and accept dualism,
And see the possibilities at equilibrium.
Peter
wattsup,
I soo agree,
but to simply be here and now seems to be the hardest of all things for most people.
"Life is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be lived."
Baghwan Shree Rajnesh
It's actually quite fun to study the workings of a fanatic religious mind this close, since there is a very strange discrepancy between the actual religious experience of these guys and the totally absence of any critic or questioning when it comes to the incorporation of the dogmatic system chosen as the intellectual structure at hand, in these cases the dogmatuic system of Christianity.
I mean, these guys have had a deep and genuine religious experience, there is absolutely no doubt of that, but what is so unfortunate is the apparent dogmatic belief system permeating the very fabric of their experience. This is a spiritual trap that the mystics of eastern tradition and other shamanic diciplines since long have been aware of, but the Christian level of spiritual awarness unfortunately is limited to the confines of their dogmatic system.
Thus a spiritual Christian is bound to reside within the confines of his belief system, strangling his astral body to the narrow boundaries of Christian mythology. The same goes for many other belief systems created to gather as many members as possible, like Islam, Judaism or Hinduism among others.
A spiritual expereinece is an experience of transcendence, and in the midst of this state the mind is not there, making the Here and Now come rushing towards us in all its splendor. This moment is the moment where you stand at a fork in the road and have two opportunities.
Those few aware of this fork may succeed in keeping the balance upon the thin line of the Here and Now as an Enlightened person, like Jesus or Buddha, two persons with an identical experience behind their glory, or like all the other Enlightened ones who have visited humanity through history.
The other opportunity, which is the only alternative visible for most people going through a deep spiritual experience, is the descent from this exstatic state of mind down to the attachment of the experience with the dogmatic belief system.
All spiritual experiences are the same in essence, to give yourself up and fuse with a greater level of consciousness. What most people being subjected to such experiences does not understand is that the mind plays a trick upon them in the process of returning to normal consciousness.
So the spiritual experience is genuine and global, a spiritual experience should be everyones birthright. But the mind snatching claws of the dogmatic religious belief system is the very enemy to pure spirituality.
It's all such a mess here on earth. Both the ones against and the ones for are wrong, misled by their own invisible master, the mind.
Gwandau
And also humans have no free will, they gave it up to all kinds of people, gouverments-gurus-religion-et, you name it.
Humans gave away their power. That mean somone alse will choose for them, then they complain about it.
Then they want new leaders and it continue in a downwards spiral.
They are afraid of their power, they are afraid of taking the wrong choise-so they let somone alse choose for them.
At what cost ?, look around what do you see ?. Witch direction are we heading at ?.
This has to do with how we humans treat eachother, we will never get better than the weakest link in the chain!
Most humans dont want to take responsibillity for their lives, if we continue like this, that choise will take our lives.
If we want to go to the next level we have to take responsibillity.
Tecknology will be greater and greater- faster and faster, that mean we have to change our thinking. We cant solve
diffrences in the same way as in the past.
I agree that we focus so much on who is right- and who is wrong that we die in the prosess, human mind would rather die than beeing wrong.
Lets try pure logic, see if we can talk on that base.
It dosent matter what you and me belive if it lead us to kill eachother, it is simply wrong if we want to go to next level.
If we want to kill this race for good we are right and on course.
So that mean right and wrong dosent exist, only were do we want to go ?. Ok we want to adcance to next level. Then we have to support what works.
We have to support what take us there agree ?
If we can agree to discuss on that base we can continue to talk about what we can do to get there, if not there is no point in discussing this.
Tommy
Quote from: wattsup on November 06, 2012, 09:22:49 AM
@ALL
I don't care if God exists or not. That's his problem. If he did make me, he certainly did not do it for me to spend my life figuring out something that is not any of my business. That's his business.
Mine is to know if I exist or not while I am existing. I'll have eternity to figure out the God thing and I am sure God will be pleased to know at least some are more interested in living then thinking about past people or writings or rules designed by past persons who were just as lost in their day. Even if an Alien landed at my door today with a solid gold book of truths, it or he or she would be just as lost. If Mark Twain was alive 2000 years ago, we'd be praying to Huckleberry Finn.
"Mine is to know if I exist or not while I am existing."
What??
" I'll have eternity to figure out the God thing"
How old are you? How long have you lived? How long is eternity? How long do you think you might live? Do you procrastinate much? ;)
I wont even bother with the rest. Much of the same.
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: ZathEros on November 06, 2012, 11:18:01 AM
Wow, I finally gave into my curiosity and had to check out this thread, wondering as to why it even exists on this board.
Hey guys this is a free energy discussion group, not a free religion discussion group.
I did learn a new word that I like "Godtard" I think Godtards are pretty much the same a what I call "Nastards" which are the folks who drive around town believing that they are actually in a Nascar race. They usually drive Red vehicles. I suspect it is required by law so that sane people can identify them easily and avoid them. Also the bigger the vehicle and or the greater number of wheels it has, the bigger the tard inside. Plus the extra bonus prestige points for the 6 inch tractor trailer exhaust stacks in the back of a full size pickup truck and the large obligatory sticker the tard payed extra money for to advertise the fact that they have an CUMMINS TURBO DIESEL on board.
I not saying that all Godtards are Nastards and vice versa, but many are.
One thing for sure all Godtards and Nastards are Fucktards
The best part of them was either strained through a sheet or ran down the crack of their Mums' ass prior to conception, or R.A.P.E. if your an Republican living in the states.
Oh well, here we go. Welcome who ever you are. Thank you for the nice words. ;) I can tell you are kind and decent person. ::) So how about some 'facts' instead of just your close minded opinions. Of which is mostly foolishness. ;)
You have said nothing worth deducing for an intelligent rebuttal. So I said all that instead. ;)
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: Tommy on November 06, 2012, 06:14:07 PM
And also humans have no free will, they gave it up to all kinds of people, gouverments-gurus-religion-et, you name it.
Humans gave away their power. That mean somone alse will choose for them, then they complain about it.
Then they want new leaders and it continue in a downwards spiral.
They are afraid of their power, they are afraid of taking the wrong choise-so they let somone alse choose for them.
At what cost ?, look around what do you see ?. Witch direction are we heading at ?.
This has to do with how we humans treat eachother, we will never get better than the weakest link in the chain!
Most humans dont want to take responsibillity for their lives, if we continue like this, that choise will take our lives.
If we want to go to the next level we have to take responsibillity.
Tecknology will be greater and greater- faster and faster, that mean we have to change our thinking. We cant solve
diffrences in the same way as in the past.
I agree that we focus so much on who is right- and who is wrong that we die in the prosess, human mind would rather die than beeing wrong.
Lets try pure logic, see if we can talk on that base.
It dosent matter what you and me belive if it lead us to kill eachother, it is simply wrong if we want to go to next level.
If we want to kill this race for good we are right and on course.
So that mean right and wrong dosent exist, only were do we want to go ?. Ok we want to adcance to next level. Then we have to support what works.
We have to support what take us there agree ?
If we can agree to discuss on that base we can continue to talk about what we can do to get there, if not there is no point in discussing this.
Tommy
Hey, another new guy. How ya doin? Welcome. ;D
You said this....
"And also humans have no free will, they gave it up to all kinds of people, gouverments-gurus-religion-et, you name it."
Everyone makes their choices whether they were pressured into it or not. You had the freedom and the free will to make your statement here didnt you? Nobody pressured you to do it did they? Did you do it on your own, of your own free will? ::)
Again, the rest of what you wrote is much of the same. What can I say that wouldnt waste page space?
What are people thinking these days? What were they thinking at any time in history?
Well we have some shining examples here. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Gwandau on November 06, 2012, 04:14:22 PM
wattsup,
I soo agree,
but to simply be here and now seems to be the hardest of all things for most people.
"Life is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be lived."
Baghwan Shree Rajnesh
It's actually quite fun to study the workings of a fanatic religious mind this close, since there is a very strange discrepancy between the actual religious experience of these guys and the totally absence of any critic or questioning when it comes to the incorporation of the dogmatic system chosen as the intellectual structure at hand, in these cases the dogmatuic system of Christianity.
I mean, these guys have had a deep and genuine religious experience, there is absolutely no doubt of that, but what is so unfortunate is the apparent dogmatic belief system permeating the very fabric of their experience. This is a spiritual trap that the mystics of eastern tradition and other shamanic diciplines since long have been aware of, but the Christian level of spiritual awarness unfortunately is limited to the confines of their dogmatic system.
Thus a spiritual Christian is bound to reside within the confines of his belief system, strangling his astral body to the narrow boundaries of Christian mythology. The same goes for many other belief systems created to gather as many members as possible, like Islam, Judaism or Hinduism among others.
A spiritual expereinece is an experience of transcendence, and in the midst of this state the mind is not there, making the Here and Now come rushing towards us in all its splendor. This moment is the moment where you stand at a fork in the road and have two opportunities.
Those few aware of this fork may succeed in keeping the balance upon the thin line of the Here and Now as an Enlightened person, like Jesus or Buddha, two persons with an identical experience behind their glory, or like all the other Enlightened ones who have visited humanity through history.
The other opportunity, which is the only alternative visible for most people going through a deep spiritual experience, is the descent from this exstatic state of mind down to the attachment of the experience with the dogmatic belief system.
All spiritual experiences are the same in essence, to give yourself up and fuse with a greater level of consciousness. What most people being subjected to such experiences does not understand is that the mind plays a trick upon them in the process of returning to normal consciousness.
So the spiritual experience is genuine and global, a spiritual experience should be everyones birthright. But the mind snatching claws of the dogmatic religious belief system is the very enemy to pure spirituality.
It's all such a mess here on earth. Both the ones against and the ones for are wrong, misled by their own invisible master, the mind.
Gwandau
"wattsup,
I soo agree"
Well of course you do, you kind honorable, caring person that enjoys Wilberts demeaning childish(devil child) comedy.
Im glad you find it funny. And when it happens to you or your children or family members or even a little old lady across the street, you will just laugh and giggle your way to your happy place. Because that is your character that I will remember. Not that you dont believe in God. That comes easily as a reminder with the other. ;)
Fools and hypocrites
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 06:54:01 PM
So how about some 'facts' instead of just your close minded opinions.
here's a fact.
YOU haven't presented a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
but you're still here... trying to convince no one but yourself of the things you have faith in.
Quote from: PS123 on November 06, 2012, 02:14:18 PM
Wasn't Santa Klaus invented by Coca Cola ?
Wasn't the Bible invented by a Pope-King ?
(Who said: "I'll keep them dumb, if you keep them poor")
If you are older than 5, and you still believe this mind setters,
You will have a long way to go to grow adult.
You will first have to fully understand and accept dualism,
And see the possibilities at equilibrium.
Peter
"If you look for (over)unity this way, you will never succeed.
Because you are single sided."
Ok. So 'we' as believers in God(that you dont believe exists) will never find OU because of our belief system?
But you. You have OU because you are not one sided. Please share your bounty!! You are pure genius free of the chains of a God. Wow, you must have hundreds of ways to produce OU as a non believer. You are soo great. ;) Please show us your light so that we may believe in what you say. ::)
Do you know what you are saying when you are saying it??? ;) Think on it a bit.
Fool and hypocrite.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 07:17:54 PM
here's a fact.
YOU haven't presented a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
but you're still here... trying to convince no one but yourself of the things you have faith in.
Hey Wilbert, whats uP? Again, repeating Lucifers best!
Will say it again for you Wilbert. You know the process and state of mind needed to get the proofs. You will not give it a go. You know very well that you are a 'fool', doing just as fools do, being foolish.
Tell me Fool. What method did you use to determine that God does not exist? You must have definitive evidence to come to your conclusions for your logical decisions on whether God actually exists or not. Or, you already know he exists and you are very angry with God for some reasons. Or you are just a fool.
Welcome back Wilbert. Some here enjoy your foolishness. They missed you. Aww. You have fans. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
You have free will to give away you power.
Freedom is like beeing pregnant, either you are pregnant, or you are not pregnant at all.
Either you are free, or you are not free at all.
Try run naked down in a crowded streat see how long before your freedom is gone.
Real freedom dosent have any limmits on it.
Humans dosent know what real freedom is, they have never expirienced it.
Tommy
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 07:39:07 PM
Will say it again for you Wilbert. You know the process and state of mind needed to get the proofs. You will not give it a go. You know very well that you are a 'fool', doing just as fools do, being foolish.
and i will say it for you godtards AGAIN... you know you have no extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend. NOT A SINGLE SHRED more than a 3 year old has for theirs... THAT IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FAITH YOU GODTARD. at least be honest, god hates liars.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 07:39:07 PM
Tell me Fool. What method did you use to determine that God does not exist? You must have definitive evidence to come to your conclusions for your logical decisions on whether God actually exists or not. Or, you already know he exists and you are very angry with God for some reasons. Or you are just a fool.
tell me godtard EXACTLY WHERE i have said god doesn't exist... all i have been doing (for 80 fucking pages now... ) is asking you to present extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for YOUR asinine unsubstantiated claims... and ALL YOU FAITHERS DO IS RESPOND WITH RED HERRINGS AND FALSE DILEMMA.
Quote from: Tommy on November 06, 2012, 07:50:11 PM
You have free will to give away you power.
Freedom is like beeing pregnant, either you are pregnant, or you are not pregnant at all.
Either you are free, or you are not free at all.
Try run naked down in a crowded streat see how long before your freedom is gone.
Real freedom dosent have any limmits on it.
Humans dosent know what real freedom is, they have never expirienced it.
Tommy
Thats not a good analogy. What it appears you want is to do anything you want without consequence. So if it were up to you, murderers would be 'allowed' to kill as they please. No consequences. No cause and effect.
Being pregnant is an effect. The cause was the getting pregnant. There are known consequences and known causes of those consequences. And free will to take the risk of taking the consequences by enacting the cause.
Is that what you want? Everyone to be naked? Why? You want to see? You like to watch? ::) Oh, thats not your thing? You would not look? ;) Then why would you want them naked?
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 08:16:02 PM
tell me godtard EXACTLY WHERE i have said god doesn't exist...
Your posts show that you do not believe, or that you do and you are angry with God. You say it every day you post here.
Magzimus Leviticus
Required reading at this point-http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion)
Pay close attention to the last paragraph!!!
Quote from: ZathEros on November 06, 2012, 08:54:55 PM
Required reading at this point-http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion)
Pay close attention to the last paragraph!!!
Comics anyone? Fiction anyone? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Again I ask why this thread is even here?
see Stephan Hartmann's post-
http://www.overunity.com/6416/please-no-religious-or-holocaust-topics/ (http://www.overunity.com/6416/please-no-religious-or-holocaust-topics/)
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 08:28:22 PM
Your posts show that you do not believe, or that you do and you are angry with God. You say it every day you post here.
Magzimus Leviticus
"believing" or "not believing" IS NOT the same thing as stating that god doesn't exist... ::) but i really don't expect a godtard like you to understand the not so subtle difference.
so that's another refusal to present a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy... and yet you still think your delusional fantasy holds far more authority and gravitas than all the other delusional godfairy fantasies. you godtards are so silly... ::)
Quote from: ZathEros on November 06, 2012, 09:34:24 PM
Again I ask why this thread is even here?
see Stephan Hartmann's post-
http://www.overunity.com/6416/please-no-religious-or-holocaust-topics/ (http://www.overunity.com/6416/please-no-religious-or-holocaust-topics/)
because the godtards don't respect others...
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 09:21:51 PM
Comics anyone? Fiction anyone? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
i'm good... full up on comics and fiction, as i just re-read the bible.
Quote from: ZathEros on November 06, 2012, 09:34:24 PM
Again I ask why this thread is even here?
see Stephan Hartmann's post-
http://www.overunity.com/6416/please-no-religious-or-holocaust-topics/ (http://www.overunity.com/6416/please-no-religious-or-holocaust-topics/)
Oh, it bothers you? What do you care to be here if it is not a topic you would like to see?
Does the sight of the word "God" just burn you up inside? Let me see your burns!!!
There are a lot of off topic threads on this site. Stephan is his own man and Im sure he has seen this thread. He owns this place.
Make a complaint if you like. If it ends then it does. All because you get itchy at the thought of it. You get angry about it. You just cant take it any longer!!!
Why is that?
Dont take this too badly.... We believe that Satan can influence us. Satan doesnt like the way God does things. Just like you dont like us talking about God. What do you think it really is that bothers you about it so much that you have to get involved to try and end it? We are not free to do so? But you, you have the right to delegate what we can talk about or say? Do you believe everyone should follow your itchy, angry, just cant stand it anymore, rules? ::) Good luck with all that.
Why dont you find a thread that you are not allergic to. There must be a scientific explanation for your condition. Wilbert should be able to explain all that to you with some science and logical reasoning. ;)
Or, you can simply ask, how can I get to know God? That is the question I would expect from someone looking for the truth. Because once you find him, you will know it. ;) No physical evidence needed. This is why Wilberts questions are loaded. He well knows there is no physical proofs. Not that we as humans have the ability to get our hands on. God has his reasons for all these things that will be revealed in the end. I dont have a problem with that. He is God.
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 09:55:54 PM
"believing" or "not believing" IS NOT the same thing as stating that god doesn't exist... ::) but i really don't expect a godtard like you to understand the not so subtle difference.
so that's another refusal to present a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy... and yet you still think your delusional fantasy holds far more authority and gravitas than all the other delusional godfairy fantasies. you godtards are so silly... ::)
Oh twist all you want. It is so transparent what you think about God. You are just trying to play games. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 09:58:41 PM
because the godtards don't respect others...
Hypocrite at his best. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
i'm good... full up on comics and fiction, as i just re-read the bible.
Im sure you did. ::)
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 09:58:41 PM
because the godtards don't respect others...
I had to screen capture that one. In case he tries to edit(change) it. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
only sheep need shepherds... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 10:57:03 PM
only sheep need shepherds... ::)
Oh, well there you go folks. Wilbys proof that God doesnt exist. ::)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 06, 2012, 11:34:09 AM
Wow, really? Intelligence of this high caliber and is it any wonder we are still burning fossil fuel?
Oh, and in the "states" we say Mom. Mums are flowers. And you probably love the liberal demoncrats. How is that socialism working out for you, eh? Got debt, will travel, eh? Tell you what, when the Obamanation of a president is voted out of office today, you can elect him to come run your country. Now THAT is funny! Hehehe
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 06, 2012, 11:24:42 PM
WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW?!
You will find out soon enough.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 06, 2012, 11:34:09 AM
Tell you what, when the Obamanation of a president is voted out of office today, you can elect him to come run your country. Now THAT is funny! Hehehe
in the same vein as magtard's "proof"...
above is bruce's "proof" that god doesn't exist... and isn't republican. ;)
4 more years of "Obamanation"... now THAT is funny.
i'd bet our very own brucetard hangs out with that bigot texas preacher steve anderson...
bigots of a feather... hang together.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 11:30:23 PM
in the same vein as magtard's "proof"...
above is bruce's "proof" that god doesn't exist... and isn't republican. ;)
4 more years of "Obamanation"... now THAT is funny.
Hey, thats the way it looked like it was going to go. Then Cailfornia cashed in. Then ohio.
I dont like the electoral voting. It doesnt make sense to me.
Oh well. Bad things are coming soon. They have been putting off releasing details of new regulations since like july, against federal law, till after the elections. Big jobs killer.
Maybe you dont live here in the US. Things are about to get real bad.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 11:44:39 PM
Hey, thats the way it looked like it was going to go. Then Cailfornia cashed in. Then ohio.
I dont like the electoral voting. It doesnt make sense to me.
Oh well. Bad things are coming soon. They have been putting off releasing details of new regulations since like july, against federal law, till after the elections. Big jobs killer.
Maybe you dont live here in the US. Things are about to get real bad.
Mags
why are you and brucetard so concerned with this earthly realm?
why are you even concerned who is 'boss' here? or do you serve two masters?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 11:47:13 PM
why are you and brucetard so concerned with this earthly realm?
why are you even concerned who is 'boss' here? or do you serve two masters?
Well the President is suppose to be a public servant, not my boss. So you dont know what your talking about.
If I hadnt read the Bible, I wouldnt be as concerned about all this. I believe we are in the end times.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 11:40:47 PM
i'd bet our very own brucetard hangs out with that bigot texas preacher steve anderson...
bigots of a feather... hang together.
More speculation. lol. here is Wilbert betting on something he has no proof of nor has even seen.
Hypocrite.
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 07, 2012, 12:00:45 AM
Well the President is suppose to be a public servant, not my boss. So you dont know what your talking about.
If I hadnt read the Bible, I wouldnt be as concerned about all this. I believe we are in the end times.
Magzimus Leviticus
it was in quotes asshat... get a clue. ::)
if we are in the end times what does it matter? you will be left behind when the rapture happens anyways... ::) ohhh.... i get it. you think obama is the antichrist. you godtards are so silly.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 07, 2012, 12:07:50 AM
More speculation. lol. here is Wilbert betting on something he has no proof of nor has even seen.
Hypocrite.
Magzimus leviticus
i learned it from watching you... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 07, 2012, 12:13:41 AM
it was in quotes asshat... get a clue. ::)
if we are in the end times what does it matter? you will be left behind when the rapture happens anyways... ::) ohhh.... i get it. you think obama is the antichrist. you godtards are so silly.
i learned it from watching you... ::)
"i learned it from watching you... ::) "
Oh yeah? How many fingers am I holding up? ;) Night wilby. God loves ya. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 07, 2012, 12:19:49 AM
"i learned it from watching you... ::) "
Oh yeah? How many fingers am I holding up? ;) Night wilby. God loves ya. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
knowing what kind of 'true' christian you are... i'd say one. the one between your index and ring finger.
blessings of odin allfather be upon ye.
edited to add: just think magtard, when you wake up tomorrow it will be a bright, beautiful obamanation day! and know it's the will of god... ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 07, 2012, 12:24:53 AM
knowing what kind of 'true' christian you are... i'd say one. the one between your index and ring finger.
blessings of odin allfather be upon ye.
edited to add: just think magtard, when you wake up tomorrow it will be a bright, beautiful obamanation day! and know it's the will of god... ;)
Yes it is. Your right. And Im not talking about the finger. ;) Thats just your dirty mind playing tricks on you. ::) Or maybe its not your mind. :o Unless you consider your mind dirty. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 06, 2012, 08:16:02 PM
and i will say it for you godtards AGAIN... you know you have no extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend. NOT A SINGLE SHRED more than a 3 year old has for theirs... THAT IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FAITH YOU GODTARD. at least be honest, god hates liars.
tell me godtard EXACTLY WHERE i have said god doesn't exist... all i have been doing (for 80 fucking pages now... ) is asking you to present extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for YOUR asinine unsubstantiated claims... and ALL YOU FAITHERS DO IS RESPOND WITH RED HERRINGS AND FALSE DILEMMA.
No, the definition of faith is believing in something you can't see. There is no difference in believing in something you can see, or believing in something you can't see. Belief is how we perceive things to be. How we perceive things to be, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of what we see or what were not able to see. The adversary (TPTB, satan, the devil, lucifer, and all other things which opposes the truth) has inverted every truth imaginable to mankind, and this includes both what we can see and what we can't see. There is as much extant material evidence or logical proof for the things which we do not see as to the things which we do see. Saying there is no extant material evidence nor logical proof for the existence of God is a lie from the adversary. There is not one shred of material evidence or logical proof which proves gravity is a real force, but yet we perceive gravity to be a real force and to curve space-time. Our perception of gravity doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of light doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of God, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of God.
In my next post, I'm going to show the true nature of gravity and of light by asking the right questions. If we don't ask the right questions, then we're not going to get the right answers. Why would I do this. To show you non-believers what you think you see is a lie, and what you think you don't see is the truth.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 07:23:53 AM
No, the definition of faith is believing in something you can't see. There is no difference in believing in something you can see, or believing in something you can't see. Belief is how we perceive things to be. How we perceive things to be, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of what we see or what were not able to see. The adversary (TPTB, satan, the devil, lucifer, and all other things which opposes the truth) has inverted every truth imaginable to mankind, and this includes both what we can see and what we can't see. There is as much extant material evidence or logical proof for the things which we do not see as to the things which we do see. Saying there is no extant material evidence nor logical proof for the existence of God is a lie from the adversary. There is not one shred of material evidence or logical proof which proves gravity is a real force, but yet we perceive gravity to be a real force and to curve space-time. Our perception of gravity doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of light doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of God, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of God.
In my next post, I'm going to show the true nature of gravity and of light by asking the right questions. If we don't ask the right questions, then we're not going to get the right answers. Why would I do this. To show you non-believers what you think you see is a lie, and what you think you don't see is the truth.
Gravock
shut up you godtard... ::) quit making up your own asinine definitions for words that are already defined... ::)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
faith /feɪθ/ Show Spelled[feyth] Show IPA
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
and don't bother with your asinine "gravity" dissertation... it is nothing more than a red herring.
present some... ANY extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary friend or at least be honest enough to admit that you have none and operate on faith alone. you godtards are so silly... ::)
as far as "material evidence of gravity"... go jump off a 10 story building godtard. ::) there is your extant evidence. you godtards are so silly.
A wave must posses Acceleration in order to exist. When a rope, see image below, is moved across a table top in order to create a wave, if the rope is not Accelerated, the wave will not exist. A rope that only moves at a velocity does not create a wave, it simply moves the rope across the table top. Light, which moves at a constant velocity in a vacuum of 299,792,458 m/s can not possibly create or be a wave. Science erroneously claims light has an instantaneous velocity of 299,792,458 m/s without first having to undergo a period of acceleration. We'll see how this is a partial truth which inverts the true reality of things. So, if light doesn't have Acceleration to be a wave, then what does (this is the right question which needs to be asked)? Gravity has an acceleration of 9.82 m/s2 in order to create a wave. Accelerating at 9.82 m/s2 for 30,585,600 seconds (exact lunar year) = the Velocity of Gravity and the measured speed for Light in a vacuum of 299,792,458 m/s. Orbit and expansion acceleration are One! In other words, light has no velocity and acceleration. Science was right about light not having acceleration, but it was wrong and inverted the truth about light's true velocity. We only perceive light to have an instantaneous velocity of 299,792,458 m/s without first having to undergo a period of acceleration because we are already moving at that speed via expansion acceleration of mass. Thus, we are moving past stationary light via expansion acceleration! There are other proofs than this, such as there is only one proper angel which light reflects off a curved surface. If light moved, then we would never be able to see the complete circumference of the moon because there is only one proper angle which the light from the sun would reflect off the curved surface of the moon back into our eyes. We would only see a dot and not the entire circumference of the moon if light moved! Like I said, what you think you see (light moving) is false, and what you think you don't see (expansion acceleration) is true. How we perceive things to be is the inverse of the true reality of things!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 07:23:53 AM
No, the definition of faith is believing in something you can't see. There is no difference in believing in something you can see, or believing in something you can't see. Belief is how we perceive things to be. How we perceive things to be, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of what we see or what were not able to see. The adversary (TPTB, satan, the devil, lucifer, and all other things which opposes the truth) has inverted every truth imaginable to mankind, and this includes both what we can see and what we can't see. There is as much extant material evidence or logical proof for the things which we do not see as to the things which we do see. Saying there is no extant material evidence nor logical proof for the existence of God is a lie from the adversary. There is not one shred of material evidence or logical proof which proves gravity is a real force, but yet we perceive gravity to be a real force and to curve space-time. Our perception of gravity doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of light doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of God, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of God.
In my next post, I'm going to show the true nature of gravity and of light by asking the right questions. If we don't ask the right questions, then we're not going to get the right answers. Why would I do this. To show you non-believers what you think you see is a lie, and what you think you don't see is the truth.
Gravock
This is idiotic. We cannot see air, but we know it exists, and not on faith. We cannot see atoms, but we know they exist, and not on faith. We cannot see black holes, but we know they exist, and again, nothing to do with faith.
Faith is not a perception. It is an irrational belief without evidence.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 07, 2012, 07:41:26 AM
shut up you godtard... ::) quit making up your own asinine definitions for words that are already defined... ::)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith)
faith /feɪθ/ Show Spelled[feyth] Show IPA
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
Hebrews 11:1 states, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen".
Faith must have adequate evidence, else it is mere superstition.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 08:36:32 AM
Hebrews 11:1 states, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".
Faith must have adequate evidence, else it is mere superstition.
Gravock
what hebrews 11:1 states doesn't mean jack squat... jesus fucking christ you're ignorant. ::)
faith has no evidence you lunatic. that's why it's called faith. ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 05, 2012, 11:37:04 PM
only idiots and godbots like you believed the earth flat... ::) anyone with two eyes (or even one) and half a brain can see the shadow of the earth on the moon and know it's not flat... even thousands of years ago.
thanks again for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have no more evidence for your imaginary friend than my 3 year old niece has for hers...
godtards... ::)
Likewise, only idiots like you believe light is moving. Anyone with two eyes (or even one) and a half a brain can see and know the light from the sun can't possibly be moving and reflecting off the curved surface of the moon into our eyes at all kinds of improper angels in order for us to see the entire circumference of the moon.
Thanks again for another tacit admission that you have no more evidence for your imaginary moving light than your your 3 year old niece has for hers.
Gravock
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 07, 2012, 08:28:18 AM
This is idiotic. We cannot see air, but we know it exists, and not on faith. We cannot see atoms, but we know they exist, and not on faith. We cannot see black holes, but we know they exist, and again, nothing to do with faith.
Faith is not a perception. It is an irrational belief without evidence.
Air has mass, atoms also have mass hence they " exist". But gravitational field doesnot have physical mass. How it exists without mass?
Quote" How we perceive things to be is the inverse of the true reality of things!"
Exactly!
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 08:54:32 AM
Likewise, only idiots like you believe light is moving. Anyone with two eyes (or even one) and a half a brain can see and know the light from the sun can't possibly be moving and reflecting off the curved surface of the moon into our eyes at all kinds of improper angels in order for us to see the entire circumference of the moon.
Thanks again for another tacit admission that you have no more evidence for your imaginary moving light than your your 3 year old niece has for hers.
Gravock
another unsubstantiated hypothesis from you... ::) jesus christ man don't you think you should substantiate your hypothesis about your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend BEFORE you vomit more asinine shit?
Again I shall ask the question, why is this thread even here?
And for the Tards who did not bother to read the reference earlier, I shall re- post Hartberlin's original message about such threads.
What part of this do you not understand????
Please no religious or holocaust topics (http://www.overunity.com/6416/please-no-religious-or-holocaust-topics/msg146538/#msg146538)
« on: December 28, 2008, 11:54:27 PM »
Hi All,
cause I am a German and have to live with German [color=rgb(0, 0, 255) !important]laws,
I don´t want to have here topics about critique about religions
or the holocaust, cause I don´t want to go to jail for
being responsible for the postings other people have done here...
There is no free speech in Germany about these topics,
so I don´t want to risk the forum being shut down due to it.
So please keep the topics in this
[color=rgb(0, 0, 255) !important]board[/color] related to more technical topics like
the technical aspects of 9/11 setup or the ? landings ? on the moon...etc..
I don´t want to spread any hatetress with this forum, but peace via
new energy technologies.
I hope you understand that I have to delete topics where I could
be made responsible for and I don´t want to go to jail for what other
people would post here.
In the past before many of us were born there have been very bad things going on.
We are here to make things better.
Many thanks for your understanding.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: ZathEros on November 07, 2012, 09:05:24 AM
Again I shall ask the question, why is this thread even here?
And for the Tards who did not bother to read the reference earlier, I shall re- post Hartberlin's original message about such threads.
I do not believe Germany has laws in place prohibiting the discussion of religion.
@ZathEros,
Maybe Hartberlin since then has moved the servers hosting this site outside of Germany where it no longer falls under the scrutiny of German laws. Why don't you ask himself via a PM why he's allowing such threads to exist if it's bothering you so much.
Thanks,
Gravock
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 07, 2012, 09:18:33 AM
I do not believe Germany has laws in place prohibiting the discussion of religion.
It has more to do with
hatred towards other peoples beliefs than it does with religion itself.
Gravock
Again the Tards miss the point-
The owner posted a request not to do a thing, that is post religious topics.
And yet there seem to be many reasons to overlook the forum owners rules.
(Primarily religious zealotry)
Until Stefan posts otherwise you really should stick to appropriate topics or take your zealotry elsewhere-
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 07, 2012, 09:05:19 AM
another unsubstantiated hypothesis from you... ::) jesus christ man don't you think you should substantiate your hypothesis about your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend BEFORE you vomit more asinine shit?
People of the past believing (perceiving) the earth to be flat, who thought they had extant material evidence and logical proof of the earth being flat, said similar things about the proofs of the earth being round as you're saying now about the proofs of light being stationary. You call the people of the past idiots, but you fail to look past yourself and become like the ones of the past.
Gravock
Quote from: ZathEros on November 07, 2012, 09:32:22 AM
Again the Tards miss the point-
The owner posted a request not to do a thing, that is post religious topics.
And yet there seem to be many reasons to overlook the forum owners rules.
(Primarily religious zealotry)
Until Stefan posts otherwise you really should stick to appropriate topics or take your zealotry elsewhere-
I think you are unclear on how Internet forums work in practice.
I said this,
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 07:23:53 AM
No, the definition of faith is believing in something you can't see. There is no difference in believing in something you can see, or believing in something you can't see. Belief is how we perceive things to be. How we perceive things to be, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of what we see or what were not able to see. The adversary (TPTB, satan, the devil, lucifer, and all other things which opposes the truth) has inverted every truth imaginable to mankind, and this includes both what we can see and what we can't see. There is as much extant material evidence or logical proof for the things which we do not see as to the things which we do see. Saying there is no extant material evidence nor logical proof for the existence of God is a lie from the adversary. There is not one shred of material evidence or logical proof which proves gravity is a real force, but yet we perceive gravity to be a real force and to curve space-time. Our perception of gravity doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of light doesn't necessarily reflect it's true nature. Our perception of God, doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of God.
In my next post, I'm going to show the true nature of gravity and of light by asking the right questions. If we don't ask the right questions, then we're not going to get the right answers. Why would I do this. To show you non-believers what you think you see is a lie, and what you think you don't see is the truth.
Gravock
and you then posted the following in reply to the above,
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 07, 2012, 08:28:18 AM
This is idiotic. We cannot see air, but we know it exists, and not on faith. We cannot see atoms, but we know they exist, and not on faith. We cannot see black holes, but we know they exist, and again, nothing to do with faith.
Faith is not a perception. It is an irrational belief without evidence.
but, you conveniently overlooked the statement I said in my original post, "There is as much extant material evidence or logical proof for the things which we do not see as to the things which we do see". This includes air, atoms, black holes, etc.
I never said faith is a perception. I said belief is a perception. You believing air exists does require faith based on adequate evidence. Your belief does not make something true. Our belief is only how we perceive things to be, and I have shown how we perceive things to be isn't always the true reality of things. A magician also proves how we perceive things doesn't necessarily reflect the true reality of what we believe we see. Faith must have adequate evidence, else it is mere superstition. Without adequate evidence for the existence of air, then it would be a mere superstition.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 07, 2012, 08:40:49 AM
what hebrews 11:1 states doesn't mean jack squat... jesus fucking christ you're ignorant. ::)
faith has no evidence you lunatic. that's why it's called faith. ::)
There's a difference in having faith in God (a Creator) over your flying spaghetti monster. There's adequate evidence in having faith in a Creator. Beholding all that is before you is the adequate evidence. There's no evidence for your flying spaghetti monster. The flying spaghetti monster is a superstition and a figment of your imagination with no evidence to support it, thus there can be no faith in the flying spaghetti monster, and to assert otherwise is lunacy.
Gravock
Ok. So 'we' as believers in God(that you dont believe exists) will never find OU because of our belief system?
But you. You have OU because you are not one sided. Please share your bounty!! You are pure genius free of the chains of a God. Wow, you must have hundreds of ways to produce OU as a non believer. You are soo great. Please show us your light so that we may believe in what you say.
Do you know what you are saying when you are saying it??? Think on it a bit.
Fool and hypocrite.
Magzimus Leviticus[/font][/size]
[/font][/size]
"God (that you dont believe exists)" : I only said he is not alone to decide.(cfr. Lilith) [/font][/size]
" pure genius free of the chains of a God" : that God put you in chains, that is obvious.[/font][/size]
"You are soo great": 1m86[/font][/size]
"Fool and hypocrite": thanks for your kind words Minimus Leviticus.[/font][/size]
[/font][/size]
Peter
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 08:19:50 AM
A wave must posses Acceleration in order to exist. When a rope, see image below, is moved across a table top in order to create a wave, if the rope is not Accelerated, the wave will not exist. A rope that only moves at a velocity does not create a wave, it simply moves the rope across the table top. Light, which moves at a constant velocity in a vacuum of 299,792,458 m/s can not possibly create or be a wave. Science erroneously claims light has an instantaneous velocity of 299,792,458 m/s without first having to undergo a period of acceleration. We'll see how this is a partial truth which inverts the true reality of things. So, if light doesn't have Acceleration to be a wave, then what does (this is the right question which needs to be asked)? Gravity has an acceleration of 9.82 m/s2 in order to create a wave. Accelerating at 9.82 m/s2 for 30,585,600 seconds (exact lunar year) = the Velocity of Gravity and the measured speed for Light in a vacuum of 299,792,458 m/s. Orbit and expansion acceleration are One! In other words, light has no velocity and acceleration. Science was right about light not having acceleration, but it was wrong and inverted the truth about light's true velocity. We only perceive light to have an instantaneous velocity of 299,792,458 m/s without first having to undergo a period of acceleration because we are already moving at that speed via expansion acceleration of mass. Thus, we are moving past stationary light via expansion acceleration! There are other proofs than this, such as there is only one proper angel which light reflects off a curved surface. If light moved, then we would never be able to see the complete circumference of the moon because there is only one proper angle which the light from the sun would reflect off the curved surface of the moon back into our eyes. We would only see a dot and not the entire circumference of the moon if light moved! Like I said, what you think you see (light moving) is false, and what you think you don't see (expansion acceleration) is true. How we perceive things to be is the inverse of the true reality of things!
Gravock
30,585,600 s x 9.82 m/s
2 = 300,350,592 s
300,350,592 =/= 299,792,458
Lunar year = 354.37 days (wikipedia) = 30,617,568 seconds using 24 hour days
30,617,568 x 9.82 =300,664,518 =/= 299,792,458
Lunar year = 12 lunar months = 12 x 29.531 days (Free Online Dictionary) = 354.372 days = 30,617,740.8 seconds
30,617,740.8 x 9.82 = 300,666,215 =/= 299,792,458
Rounding error?
Interesting numerical coincidence, though. But why did you choose the Moon's time of orbiting? Why not choose a geostationary satellite, which orbits the same Earth in the same gravitational field of acceleration of 9.82 m/s
2 but does it in close to 24 hours?
I do agree though, that the true one-way velocity of light is zero.
Quote from: TinselKoala on November 07, 2012, 03:26:03 PM
30,585,600 s x 9.82 m/s2 = 300,350,592 s
300,350,592 =/= 299,792,458
Lunar year = 354.37 days (wikipedia) = 30,617,568 seconds using 24 hour days
30,617,568 x 9.82 =300,664,518 =/= 299,792,458
Lunar year = 12 lunar months = 12 x 29.531 days (Free Online Dictionary) = 354.372 days = 30,617,740.8 seconds
30,617,740.8 x 9.82 = 300,666,215 =/= 299,792,458
Rounding error?
Interesting numerical coincidence, though. But why did you choose the Moon's time of orbiting? Why not choose a geostationary satellite, which orbits the same Earth in the same gravitational field of acceleration of 9.82 m/s2 but does it in close to 24 hours?
I do agree though, that the true one-way velocity of light is zero.
It's good to see you agree with the true one-way velocity of light being zero. Why didn't I choose a geostationary satellite which orbits the same earth in the same gravitational field of acceleration of 9.82 m/s
2? Because a geostationary satellite doesn't orbit the earth at 9.82 m/s
2, and this is only representative of the rate of acceleration at or near the surface of the earth. Also, 9.82 m/s
2 has been rounded up. Why did I choose the moons time of orbiting? Because the earth doesn't orbit the sun in 365 days or a solar year according to terrestrial science (it actually takes much, much longer). Strictly speaking there is no such thing as a precession of 1,223 seconds. It is an effect that can be explained when one knows more about it. The Earth, in common with the whole of the solar system, takes a spiral course through space. This is a retrograde spiral movement, with the Sun at its centre. The Earth revolving in one direction makes a spiral in the opposite direction. I'm attaching an illustration of this. Now this whole retrograde spiral itself moves in a circle through space, and at the end of every year it cuts across the circumference of this circle slightly earlier than in the preceding year, to be exact 1,223 seconds prior to the completion of the sidereal year. A sidereal year is the time taken by the Earth to orbit the Sun once with respect to the fixed stars.
As the Equator of the Earth lies at an angle of 23 degrees to the Sun, the retrograde movement of the Earth will cause the light of the Sun to reach the Equator 1,223 seconds before the Earth itself crosses this circumference. The annual rate of precession is 50.2619
o on this spiral, means it takes the Earth 25,784.93 years to complete a whole cycle (this is the true solar year and the amount of time it takes the earth to make one complete orbit around the sun). According to wiki, the axial precession (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession#Axial_precession_.28precession_of_the_equinoxes.29) of earth goes through one such complete precessional cycle in a period of
approximately 26,000 years or 1° every 72 years, during which the positions of stars will slowly change in both equatorial coordinates and ecliptic longitude. The 26,000 years is close to the 25,784.93 years (the number used by wiki has been rounded up). The lunar year is representative of this complete cycle in terms of the earth's true solar year on this retrograde spiral. The imaginary line that the spiral movement describes in space lies at right angles to the inclination. Since it contains the greater land mass, the North Pole is thrown slightly off balance by the resultant centrifugal force and moves to the outside of the spiral track, whereas the South Pole, with the lesser land mass, moves to the inside of the track.
So the annual precession is not strictly speaking a displacement, but rather the direction the spiral follows, or a tendency of the poles to move under the unbalanced action of the differing centrifugal force at the two poles. This tendency throws one pole to the outside of the spiral track and pulls the other to the inside of it, this in turn causes the Equator to alter its position in relation to the Sun, without any alteration in the angle of the axial inclination itself.
2 Peter 3:8–9 reads: 'But do not forget this one thing, dear friends:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.'
Gravock
Ah, I see. Yes, you've unlocked the secret of the esoteric Grand Year, the complete precessional cycle that defines the Ages of Man on Earth. And you've explained it very well too. Seen from a Being far away and with temporal Vision, the trail of the Earth's orbit around the sun would trace out your helical path (not spiral) as you say and would not actually "close" for the full 27 thousand years, about.
But from an even greater Being's viewpoint even further out.... the Sun itself is moving, bobbing up and down thru the Galactic plane on its orbit around the Galactic center.... it's now halfway through its 19th orbit, passing through the local Arm on its way to one of the interarm Gaps, rushing almost directly away from the star Sirius at over 300 km/sec. From that perspective it will take something like one eighteenth of 4.7 billion "standard" years, or a bit over a quarter of a billion years, for the Even Grandest Year to conclude.
This is all covered in the Vedanta, by the way, as you probably know.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 06, 2012, 07:14:32 PM
"wattsup,
I soo agree"
Well of course you do, you kind honorable, caring person that enjoys Wilberts demeaning childish(devil child) comedy.
Im glad you find it funny. And when it happens to you or your children or family members or even a little old lady across the street, you will just laugh and giggle your way to your happy place. Because that is your character that I will remember. Not that you dont believe in God. That comes easily as a reminder with the other. ;)
Fools and hypocrites
Magzimus Leviticus
Oh my, are you taking yourself serious? You are a very serious and self important man aren't you? ;)
Why so serious? Laugh at the clowninsh wilby and his hilarious attacks upon your self importance. He is quite funny when he gets angry and frustrated. ;D ;D
Why do you take yourself so seriously? Big ego? Self pity? Feeling you give more than you take? Feeling that your duty to defend your belief system is taxing?
Remember not to take your life too seriously. There is nothing serious with life itself. Life just is. :)
The rest is in your head, its our mind that is our greatest enemy. Open up for the childish extacy of being alive. Don't take yourself too serious. ;)
You got nothing to lose but your head. ;)
Gwandau
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 10:12:40 AM
I said this,
and you then posted the following in reply to the above,
but, you conveniently overlooked the statement I said in my original post, "There is as much extant material evidence or logical proof for the things which we do not see as to the things which we do see". This includes air, atoms, black holes, etc.
I never said faith is a perception. I said belief is a perception. You believing air exists does require faith based on adequate evidence. Your belief does not make something true. Our belief is only how we perceive things to be, and I have shown how we perceive things to be isn't always the true reality of things. A magician also proves how we perceive things doesn't necessarily reflect the true reality of what we believe we see. Faith must have adequate evidence, else it is mere superstition. Without adequate evidence for the existence of air, then it would be a mere superstition.
Gravock
Well OK. You trotted out the example of gravity, that we do not fully understand its source. Whether or not we can perfectly explain space-time and gravity and why mass creates gravity is not the issue. The analogous question would be - does gravity exist? Well, since we can set up repeated experiments that demonstrate the effect of gravity, we can safely say that the force of gravity exists.
What experiments can you set up to prove the existence of God? First, define God, please.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 07, 2012, 07:37:07 PM
Well OK. You trotted out the example of gravity, that we do not fully understand its source. Whether or not we can perfectly explain space-time and gravity and why mass creates gravity is not the issue. The analogous question would be - does gravity exist? Well, since we can set up repeated experiments that demonstrate the effect of gravity, we can safely say that the force of gravity exists.
What experiments can you set up to prove the existence of God? First, define God, please.
We can also set up repeated experiments that demonstrate the effects of centrifugal force, but the effects are only apparent (fictitious) in the sense that it is not part of an interaction but is a result of rotation, with no reaction-force counterpart. Fictitious is referring to the force not being present in the stationary inertial frame. Likewise, experiments demonstrating the effects of gravity is apparent (fictitious) in the sense that it is not part of an interaction but is a result of expansion acceleration, with no reaction-force counterpart. Fictitious is referring to the force not being present if one were outside of the expansion acceleration. By being outside of the expansion acceleration, then there is no effect of gravity because it doesn't exist. Gravity isn't anymore a real force than the so-called centrifugal force.
God is an oscillating charge superimposed on an infinite point, constantly causing a deformation of space, continually exerting its influence on the un-manifest, and automatically creating energy, and in consequence, matter. If God did not exist, nothing whatsoever would exist. This continual creation of energy in the Universe gives rise to an internal pressure in the nebulae which can be seen in the phenomenon known as "the flight of the nebulae." As a result of this internal pressure they move away from one another. You may raise the objection that this pressure is also applied in the direction of flight so that the internal pressure coupled with the external one would make them stable and they would not move apart, which would cause their mass to condense. My answer to this would be that energy created outside a galaxy tends to be drawn into the galaxy, condensing itself into material form. Thus we have an internal pressure coupled with an external decompression.
The flight of the nebulae prevents condensation taking place for three reasons: 1) This movement causes the interior pressure to disappear. However, nebulae appear to maintain an acceleration caused by an internal pressure within the Universe. (2) As the nebulae move apart, that space which had been transformed into matter endeavors to return to its former state of primordial space in accordance with the law of rotation of masses in a magnetic field. This reconstitutes the energy that had been used for condensation of the matter, turning it into light, whose wave energy goes on decreasing until the moment of entropy is reached. This is what takes place on the Sun. Leaving aside the reaction that they bring about on the planets, the Sun's discharges into space are, in a sense, matter returning to its original state of primordial space.
In the first instance God supplied the power that brings about the deformation of space and the Sun, by an opposite process, turns it back into energy, thus re-establishing the balance. Everything comes from God and everything returns to Him. That is why neither matter nor energy exist, but only deformed space, which is called matter, and what you call energy is nothing more than a phenomenon of transition between primordial space and deformed space. The eternal living God is spirit. If He can create matter, can it be said that all spirits can deform space and create also? Not all of them. Only the Creator, whose nature is different. Spirits are created, and therefore in some degree manifest, but God is the Unmanifest. We are spirits but not of the nature of God. The Father is the generator of energy, and the spirits are merely a form of energy, albeit a different form to that found in matter. A spirit can create to a certain extent, just as we ourselves can, within limits, deform space, create and destroy. But there are limits to the things we can create. No spirit can create another spirit, for example. That would be beyond its power, but nothing is beyond the power of God. Not only can He create matter, energy and spirit, as He did, but He also created others who have a nature akin to His own. These are His Sons, let us give homage to them. They are of a similar nature to Him, and are sources of life and have the power to deform space. Life does not belong to us, and if we were to dissociate ourselves from God, we would die spiritually. But these other beings who are of a similar nature to the Heavenly Father constitute with Him a single unit, in themselves eternal.
Time should play the part instead of meters or distance. We should look upon Time as the result of the force that impels a body through space. The greater the force, the shorter the time, and the shorter also the space to be traversed. Thus, if the force were infinitely great, time and space would be infinitely small, they would cease to exist. If the force was infinitely small, time and space would be infinitely great. But, again the force is not everything, because in reality it does not exist. All that exists is the impulse that is applied to the body in space and imparts momentum to it. The body's movement is then only limited by the resistance it has to overcome. What does exist then is the momentum that arises from the impulse of the force, and not the force itself. Again this impulse only exists as a function of a Will that gives rise to it. To sum up, time and space are the outcome of a powerful Will acting on the Universe, that is what we should measure, taking note of its intensity in any given phenomenon. In our Universe this Will (God) manifests itself as galactic time (you ask for experiments to prove the existence of God, but I assure you, no experiments are needed other than observing time and space and taking note of its intensity in any given phenomenon).
Gravock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvaita
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 08:55:17 PM
God is an oscillating charge superimposed on an ............
I guess, this theory satisfies me, while the one of the Bible - doesn't. I can't wait for your theory of Evil.
The one of st. Augustine's (theory of evil) doesn't satisfy me.
The expanding big bang universe is much like religion, it is popularly accepted through faith alone.
Gathered data is manipulated to fit the original idea, and when it doesn't, the original idea is simply modified (not revoked), so the data does fit.
Big Bang and an expanding universe is accepted so readily, yet the proof of the entire convoluted hypothesis is reliant on one factor alone. Observed redshift.
The most interesting thing about this religion is the attribution of the idea of "redshift by expansion of space" to Edwin Hubble.
Here's one (of many) dissenting views to popularly accepted belief. http://www.etheric.com/Cosmology/redshift.html (http://www.etheric.com/Cosmology/redshift.html)
Cheers
P.S. http://users.navi.net/~rsc/physics/wallace/farce.txt (http://users.navi.net/~rsc/physics/wallace/farce.txt) KneeDeep
https://sites.google.com/site/bigbangcosmythology/home/edwinhubble
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 11:29:30 AM
There's a difference in having faith in God (a Creator) over your flying spaghetti monster. There's adequate evidence in having faith in a Creator. Beholding all that is before you is the adequate evidence. There's no evidence for your flying spaghetti monster. The flying spaghetti monster is a superstition and a figment of your imagination with no evidence to support it, thus there can be no faith in the flying spaghetti monster, and to assert otherwise is lunacy.
Gravock
jesus fucking christ you're stupid... ::) "all that is before me" is evidence of the sauce of the flying spaghetti monster. ::) not your puny gawd of abraham. ::)
there is EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE FOR THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER AS THERE IS FOR YOUR IMAGINARY GODFAIRY SAVIOR/CREATOR FRIEND MORON....
NONE!
you're a delusional fucking zealot. ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 08:55:17 PM
but I assure you, no experiments are needed other than observing time and space and taking note of its intensity in any given phenomenon.
Gravock
your "assurances" don't mean jack squat... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 07, 2012, 08:55:17 PM
We can also set up repeated experiments that demonstrate the effects of centrifugal force, but the effects are only apparent (fictitious) in the sense that it is not part of an interaction but is a result of rotation, with no reaction-force counterpart. Fictitious is referring to the force not being present in the stationary inertial frame. Likewise, experiments demonstrating the effects of gravity is apparent (fictitious) in the sense that it is not part of an interaction but is a result of expansion acceleration, with no reaction-force counterpart. Fictitious is referring to the force not being present if one were outside of the expansion acceleration. By being outside of the expansion acceleration, then there is no effect of gravity because it doesn't exist. Gravity isn't anymore a real force than the so-called centrifugal force.
God is an oscillating charge superimposed on an infinite point, constantly causing a deformation of space, continually exerting its influence on the un-manifest, and automatically creating energy, and in consequence, matter. If God did not exist, nothing whatsoever would exist. This continual creation of energy in the Universe gives rise to an internal pressure in the nebulae which can be seen in the phenomenon known as "the flight of the nebulae."
You have a point about centrifugal force. Maybe something that appears self evident is not so self evident.
However, by this logic, you cannot really assert what you assert about god, either. There is no good evidence for it.
" EVIDENCE FOR THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER "
Wilby, Are you a pastafarian?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 08, 2012, 08:08:06 AM
You have a point about centrifugal force. Maybe something that appears self evident is not so self evident.
However, by this logic, you cannot really assert what you assert about god, either. There is no good evidence for it.
Maybe you'll find the good evidence in the 99.999% of what you don't yet know, or maybe you'll find it in what you believe or perceive to be correct, but is actually wrong. Or, maybe you'll find the good evidence in things which do not appear to be so self evident, but it really is self evident. Have you ever said, "why didn't I see that before, how did I miss that"?
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 08, 2012, 08:50:36 AM
Maybe you'll find the good evidence in the 99.999% of what you don't yet know, or maybe you'll find it in what you believe or perceive to be correct, but is actually wrong. Or, maybe you'll find the good evidence in things which do not appear to be so self evident, but it really is self evident. Have you ever said, "why didn't I see that before, how did I miss that"?
Gravock
Sure, that is possible. Anything is possible. However, we can only go off what we do know. And based on what we know, there is nothing to indicate that there is a god, so until we learn something that indicates there is, we should hold off on assuming this. By extension, I do not understand why you think that god exists. It sounds like you are just hoping that you might in the future learn that god exists, so you are just deciding that for yourself right now in anticipation.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 08, 2012, 09:02:36 AM
Sure, that is possible. Anything is possible. However, we can only go off what we do know. And based on what we know, there is nothing to indicate that there is a god, so until we learn something that indicates there is, we should hold off on assuming this. By extension, I do not understand why you think that god exists. It sounds like you are just hoping that you might in the future learn that god exists, so you are just deciding that for yourself right now in anticipation.
I know at this very moment God exists. It's not something I'm hoping to learn in the future. This is something I hope you learn in the future. We have free choice and free will to believe whatever. I wouldn't take this from you even if I could. However, this system of things will do everything it can to prevent you from learning the truth. The adversary of God, satan, is the ruler of this system of things because mankind has allowed the adversary to rule over him. This system of things is coming to an end. I hope you're ready for the great deceit of mankind.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 08, 2012, 09:18:43 AM
I know at this very moment God exists. It's not something I'm hoping to learn in the future.
Gravock
OK, how do you know this?
It is the individual experience that makes people to believe in God and try know about him.
"An ounce of experience is equivalent to tonnes of knowledge"
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 08, 2012, 09:37:04 AM
OK, how do you know this?
Religion: God (spiritual, invisible, un-manifest). Eternal, has no beginning and no end.
Science: Matter (physical, visible, manifested). Can't be created nor destroyed. Has no beginning and no end.
"As Above, So Below" is an abridgement of the longer expression, "That which is above is like to that which is below, and that which is below is like to that which is above."
This phrase declares that nothing has ever existed in all of creation that was not first prefigured in the patterns of the spiritual world. All phenomena are but shadows of higher reality. Not even so much as a fleeting thought comes into being otherwise. Until this insight is absorbed into the very fabric of the soul, ascribing all creation to the Word of God, to Christ, while ultimately correct (Jn 1,3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A3&version=NIV); 1 Cor 8,6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%208:6&version=NIV); Col 1,16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:16&version=NIV); Heb 1,2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%201:2&version=NIV)), reveals no depth of comprehension.
Only one thing is real, and that is Spirit, and this is exactly what earthly science does not admit. Science conveniently overlooks consciousness or the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself when theorizing how the physical universe manifested. It should be obvious that science is a copy of religion without God in it. Thus, science is a false religion in and of itself (a cult).
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 08, 2012, 08:04:53 AM
jesus fucking christ you're stupid... ::) "all that is before me" is evidence of the sauce of the flying spaghetti monster. ::) not your puny gawd of abraham. ::)
there is EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE FOR THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER AS THERE IS FOR YOUR IMAGINARY GODFAIRY SAVIOR/CREATOR FRIEND MORON....
NONE!
you're a delusional fucking zealot. ::)
The sauce may be evidence for the spaghetti (both spaghetti and sauce do exist), but it's not evidence for the spaghetti to be a flying monster which has life in it (which is a figment of your imagination with no adequate evidence to support it and is a mere superstition). I have showed how the sauce isn't adequate evidence, but you have not showed how the evidence being presented for the existence of God isn't adequate evidence. You and others only assert it's not adequate evidence without giving a rational explanation for the rejection of such evidence.
Gravock
Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result is insanity. How would my next post be any different than my previous post which may have a different result. To continue this will be nothing less than insanity.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 08, 2012, 01:40:41 PM
Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result is insanity. How would my next post be any different than my previous post which may have a different result. To continue this will be nothing less than insanity.
Gravock
I think you are unclear on how Internet forums work in practice.
Quote from: ZathEros on November 08, 2012, 01:48:41 PM
I think you are unclear on how Internet forums work in practice.
I think you're unclear on who originally made the above statement to you. However, you do prove the above statement true in regards to how they work. A person leaves the discussion, then others attack him since he's no longer able to defend himself. You should be proud of yourself.
Take care,
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 08, 2012, 11:57:14 AM
All phenomena are but shadows of higher reality. Not even so much as a fleeting thought comes into being otherwise.
Only one thing is real, and that is Spirit, and this is exactly what earthly science does not admit. Science conveniently overlooks consciousness or the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself when theorizing how the physical universe manifested.
Gravock,
I absolutely agree to these sentences extracted from your post.
Consciousness emanates from a higher level of energy than the material world, and there is a lot more to things than meets the eye. But there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that indicates a god of the kind described by todays religions. The spiritual realms does not have to incorporate any such god. The spiritual realms are just as natural part of our universe as the material world, and are just as bound to natural laws as the physical world, even if the dynamics of the spritual realm differs from physical reality.
The Christian god is a creation of man, just like all the gods of any religion. Or more clearly, the concept of god is a misinterpretation of the spiritual experience, it is the inevitable interpretation mistake done by a mind having had an spiritual experience and then trying to describe what cannot be described when returning to a normal state of consciousness. This inability of the normal state of consciousness to translate the spiritual experience correctly is a well known effect documented and dealt with by mystics worldwide for thousands of years. Therefore it is such a pity that religions like Christianity and Islam and so forth has been allowed to grow into rigid dogmatic systems of such monstrous proportions.
The only "religion" aware of this is Buddhism, who self evidently do not believe in any god, but still are very well versed in the spiritual realm.
Gwandau
Quote from: gravityblock on November 08, 2012, 11:57:14 AM
Religion: God (spiritual, invisible, un-manifest). Eternal, has no beginning and no end.
Science: Matter (physical, visible, manifested). Can't be created nor destroyed. Has no beginning and no end.
"As Above, So Below" is an abridgement of the longer expression, "That which is above is like to that which is below, and that which is below is like to that which is above."
This phrase declares that nothing has ever existed in all of creation that was not first prefigured in the patterns of the spiritual world. All phenomena are but shadows of higher reality. Not even so much as a fleeting thought comes into being otherwise. Until this insight is absorbed into the very fabric of the soul, ascribing all creation to the Word of God, to Christ, while ultimately correct (Jn 1,3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%3A3&version=NIV); 1 Cor 8,6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%208:6&version=NIV); Col 1,16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:16&version=NIV); Heb 1,2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%201:2&version=NIV)), reveals no depth of comprehension.
Only one thing is real, and that is Spirit, and this is exactly what earthly science does not admit. Science conveniently overlooks consciousness or the quality or state of being aware of an external object or something within oneself when theorizing how the physical universe manifested. It should be obvious that science is a copy of religion without God in it. Thus, science is a false religion in and of itself (a cult).
Gravock
[size=78%] [/size]
So you assert. I assert that there is no spirit, and the brain is all there is. Why is the brain alone, without your Spirit, not capable of providing us with the human experience that we know? There is much evidence for why it does, and zero evidence of any spirit.
So, why do you think this?
Quote from: gravityblock on November 08, 2012, 11:57:14 AM
snip...
It should be obvious that science is a copy of religion without God in it. Thus, science is a false religion in and of itself (a cult).
snip...
codswallop.
Some scientists may hold a dogmatic viewpoint (like many BB theorists and religious faithers), but that is anathema to the methodology of science, which relies on evidence, not faith or dogma . When new evidence appears, science will incorporate it into an existing theory, or, if need be, change a theory or create a new one in response to the weight of the evidence presented.
Science deals with the physical world. That which can be observed with physical instruments, not the spiritual world, which cannot be observed with physical instruments. The easiest way to describe the demarcation, is that science deals with the "what and the how", while religion
attempts to deal with the "who and the why".
Cheers
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 08, 2012, 06:24:29 PM
So you assert. I assert that there is no spirit, and the brain is all there is. Why is the brain alone, without your Spirit, not capable of providing us with the human experience that we know? There is much evidence for why it does, and zero evidence of any spirit.
So, why do you think this?
"As above, so below" is the absolute proof for the existence of God! You failed to absorb this into the very fabric of your soul. I didn't assert, I just didn't give you all of the information in my prior post. The two most prominent bodies in the heavens, the sun (the greater light) and the moon (the lesser light), shadowed the two most prominent structures in the bible, Noah's Ark (the greater structure) and the Ark of the Covenant (the lesser structure). By taking the area of Noah's Ark we'll find the numerical diameter of the sun. By taking the area of the Ark of the Covenant we'll find the numerical diameter of the moon. In addition to this, the two pillars Solomon built also shadowed the two great lights. There's more, Joshua circled the city of Jericho once a day for six days, and the number of degrees they traversed is equal to the numerical diameter of the moon. Jericho means "city of the moon".
Watch the video on the Firmament (http://thefirmament.org/) for additional information. I'll give you fair warning before you watch the video, and that is to be prepared to embrace your true God and Creator. I'll be leaving this discussion, because if you reject this amount of evidence I have presented to you so far, then there is no hope in convincing you otherwise, unless God chooses to do so.
Take care and God Bless,
Gravock
Oh you guys need an intermission
Here a Thane Heinz Toroid with Don smith accesories
Running a load connected to No power source
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q)
From Here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-258.html#post213894 (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-258.html#post213894)
Thx
Chet
Quote from: gravityblock on November 09, 2012, 03:31:46 AM
"As above, so below" is the absolute proof for the existence of God! You failed to absorb this into the very fabric of your soul. I didn't assert, I just didn't give you all of the information in my prior post. The two most prominent bodies in the heavens, the sun (the greater light) and the moon (the lesser light), shadowed the two most prominent structures in the bible, Noah's Ark (the greater structure) and the Ark of the Covenant (the lesser structure). By taking the area of Noah's Ark we'll find the numerical diameter of the sun. By taking the area of the Ark of the Covenant we'll find the numerical diameter of the moon. In addition to this, the two pillars Solomon built also shadowed the two great lights. There's more, Joshua circled the city of Jericho once a day for six days, and the number of degrees they traversed is equal to the numerical diameter of the moon. Jericho means "city of the moon".
Watch the video on the Firmament (http://thefirmament.org/) for additional information. I'll give you fair warning before you watch the video, and that is to be prepared to embrace your true God and Creator. I'll be leaving this discussion, because if you reject this amount of evidence I have presented to you so far, then there is no hope in convincing you otherwise, unless God chooses to do so.
Take care and God Bless,
Gravock
I watched the video with high hopes of seeing actual evidence. I was disappointed.
Eaten
I will tell you this...........
At some point in this life before you leave us.That mustard seed will twitch
and you will itch.
Whether you resist the urge to scratch that itch will be up to you........
@Chris
Yes you need to keep searching my friend !
Scratch that itch..........
Hoptoad
So whatcha think of the Thane Heinz Don Smith self running Flavor shavor Movie
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F12716%2Fprobality-of-god%2Fnew%2F%23new&v=1&libid=1352471573754&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmzE-p0GJb_Q&title=Probality%20of%20God&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmzE-p0GJb_Q&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13524715655302)
?
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on November 09, 2012, 09:32:46 AM
Eaten
I will tell you this...........
At some point in this life before you leave us.That mustard seed will twitch
and you will itch.
Whether you resist the urge to scratch that itch will be up to you........
@Chris
Yes you need to keep searching my friend !
Scratch that itch..........
Hoptoad
So whatcha think of the Thane Heinz Don Smith self running Flavor shavor Movie
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F12716%2Fprobality-of-god%2Fnew%2F%23new&v=1&libid=1352471573754&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmzE-p0GJb_Q&title=Probality%20of%20God&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmzE-p0GJb_Q&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13524715655302)
?
Thx
Chet
Interesting Chet, but honestly I could not make heads or tails of what he is doing. I could not see any toroid, and there are so many wires going anywhere, even if by some miracle it is legit. We need to wait to see if there is a circuit. Seems to me that he is only using the negative of the battery? Thoughts?
Cheers,
Bruce
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 09, 2012, 09:07:00 AM
I watched the video with high hopes of seeing actual evidence. I was disappointed.
Somehow this doesn't surprise me. I will say this, I think you're sincere when saying you had high hopes and was disappointed. This tells me you have a desire for God and for a Creator. It's good to see you have a solid foundation which can be built on.
Gravock
Quote from: ramset on November 09, 2012, 09:32:46 AM
snip...
Hoptoad
So whatcha think of the (snip...) Don Smith self running Flavor shavor Movie
Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F12716%2Fprobality-of-god%2Fnew%2F%23new&v=1&libid=1352471573754&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmzE-p0GJb_Q&title=Probality%20of%20God&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmzE-p0GJb_Q&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13524715655302)
snip...
Interesting, if it can be replicated. Circuit anyone?
He is an honest fellow with sincere open source intentions and has always
done what he says he'll do.
And he says he'll post a circuit and parts list!![once he does his own replication]
this is one to watch .................
Thx
Chet
Ps
Toad, I see you snipped out Mr.T ??
Quote from: ramset on November 09, 2012, 07:39:52 PM
snip...
Toad, I see you snipped out Mr.T ??
Why give T any credit when he refuses to acknowledge any of the work of predecessors upon which he has built (plagiarized) his work?
Most open sourcers readily acknowledge their inheritence of prior art, but not T. He always claims everything as being the result of only his own inventive reasoning. I acknowledge his work and possible contributions to the work of others, but not his inventiveness, as he merely builds on the work of others without giving credit to those whose ideas he has seconded.
Cheers
Quote from: gravityblock on November 09, 2012, 05:37:39 PM
Somehow this doesn't surprise me. I will say this, I think you're sincere when saying you had high hopes and was disappointed. This tells me you have a desire for God and for a Creator. It's good to see you have a solid foundation which can be built on.
Gravock
I have a little more time now, and let me be more specific. The video is just an exercise in some backward looking convoluted math to end up at a number you want to end up with. This is just basically numerology, and we all know what bullshit numerology is.
A good exercise to purge yourself of the idea that this is good evidence is to try to work out the math forwards, without knowing the end number you are trying to get to. Can you actually use the information presented to make predictions before the event happens, or is the information only good for confirming, through some convoluted logic, an event in the past?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 09, 2012, 09:44:36 PM
I have a little more time now, and let me be more specific. The video is just an exercise in some backward looking convoluted math to end up at a number you want to end up with. This is just basically numerology, and we all know what bullshit numerology is.
A good exercise to purge yourself of the idea that this is good evidence is to try to work out the math forwards, without knowing the end number you are trying to get to. Can you actually use the information presented to make predictions before the event happens, or is the information only good for confirming, through some convoluted logic, an event in the past?
Then please show me how this was done, and how convoluted logic was used to confirm this. I'll make my case below showing other wise, then you can make your case against it if you can. Until you or anyone else can make a good case against this, then this must be considered good evidence for the existence of God.
Let's have someone build four new structures on the earth, and create a new unit of measurement to represent the cubit for these four structures being built, then keep hidden what the new units represent. Next, reveal thousands of years later what your new units represent. Then, thousands of years later after mankind knows what the new units represent, pass into a law another unit of measurement where the new units are converted to the units passed by law where the L*W*H represent two of the structures in diameter of the greater light and two of the structures represent in diameter the lesser light. The L*W*H is showing an intelligent design of a message intended for a future generation instead of a mere cosmic and earthly coincidence. Also, tell someone to circle a city a certain amount of times to represent the number of degrees which adds to and equals the diameter of a body in space which mankind didn't know at the time the message was generated, which represents the lesser light. The numbers of this diameter must be of the same unit of measurement which is passed into the same law thousands of years later which were used for the four structures which were built
(this is also showing intelligence behind the message, which can't be called convoluted logic by the process of simple mathematics in order to confirm a message showing intelligence beyond this world). In addition to this, the city which is circled must have a name with a meaning that represents this body in space (also showing intelligent design behind the message which can't be considered convoluted logic by the process of confirming it). Then someone uses simple mathematics (the area of the structures) to confirm this intelligent message, and you call it convoluted logic. If simple mathematics wasn't needed, then you would say the message wasn't by an intelligent being and it was both a cosmic and earthly coincidence. This may be true for one of the structures, but not with all four structures taken together in addition to the city, and in which had a name representing the same body in space which shadowed two of the structures on earth and one of the bodies in space (the lesser light). This is showing and confirming an intelligence beyond this world which knew the future in advance and/or who could influence the future, which is beyond both cosmic and earthly coincidence or convoluted logic. If you are honest with yourself, and really think deep about this, you will see how there is no convoluted logic by the process of itself to confirm a message showing intelligence which was sent from the past to a future generation who both knew and/or controlled the future along with having knowledge of the unknown diameter's of both the sun and moon at the time the message was generated.
Gravock
Daniel 12:4 says, "But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
Some of the words sealed up in the scroll has already been unsealed from an increase in mankind's knowledge, such as mankind knowing the diameter of the sun and moon. In the end of days for this system of things, God has provided absolute proof and evidence for his existence and power, so no man can reject Him by saying there was no good evidence for His existence. It's ironic, how God used the very same science that takes Him out of the equation to prove His existence. God will catch the wise (those who proclaim to be wise with their ungodly wisdom) in their own craftiness. He will confuse the wise with the simplest things of this world.
Hebrews 11:1 states, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Have faith in this good evidence of God. He has already provided you with a good foundation to put this good evidence on.
2 Corinthians 6:17 states, "Therefore, come out from among unbelievers, and separate yourselves from them, says the LORD. Don't touch their filthy things, and I will welcome you." Separate yourself and don't touch or hold onto their ungodly wisdom or any other filthy thing of mankind and God will welcome you as His own. Yes, ungodly wisdom is a filthy thing to the LORD, which is a trait and a property of the unbelievers.
Gravock
Based on good evidence with absolute proof, the probability of God is 100%!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 11:32:19 AM
Based on good evidence and absolute proof, the probability of God is 100%!
Gravock
you godtards are so silly... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 10, 2012, 11:35:29 AM
you godtards are so silly... ::)
In the end, you'll probably be the last one left trying to show how we're silly. Good luck with that!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 07:02:45 AM
Then please show me how this was done, and how convoluted logic was used to confirm this. I'll make my case below showing other wise, then you can make your case against it if you can. Until you or anyone else can make a good case against this, then this must be considered good evidence for the existence of God.
The number one reason this is wrong is that nowhere in the bible does it say that these numbers are related to celestial distances. This is what is called shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it afterwards.
It can be done with any book. All you need are some numbers, any numbers. Because the number of things in the universe is so large, that any number you choose will correspond to something in the universe. For example, Around the World in 80 Days. Let's look at the number 80. It is composed of 8 and 0. 8 plus 0 equals 8. There are 8 planets in our solar system. How could Jules Verne possibly know that Pluto would be removed as a planet and ultimately the number of planets in our solar system would be 8? Therefore, Around the World in 80 Days was written by God!
This is something I came up with in 5 minutes, because I was just thinking about a book with a number in it. I am sure it can be done with any book and any number.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 07:02:45 AM
snip
snip
https://www.google.com/search?q=christianity+prohibits+numerology&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 10, 2012, 11:58:00 AM
The number one reason this is wrong is that nowhere in the bible does it say that these numbers are related to celestial distances. This is what is called shooting an arrow and painting a bullseye around it afterwards.
It can be done with any book. All you need are some numbers, any numbers. Because the number of things in the universe is so large, that any number you choose will correspond to something in the universe. For example, Around the World in 80 Days. Let's look at the number 80. It is composed of 8 and 0. 8 plus 0 equals 8. There are 8 planets in our solar system. How could Jules Verne possibly know that Pluto would be removed as a planet and ultimately the number of planets in our solar system would be 8? Therefore, Around the World in 80 Days was written by God!
This is something I came up with in 5 minutes, because I was just thinking about a book with a number in it. I am sure it can be done with any book and any number.
You didn't link the 80 with a particular unit of measurement that will be converted into another unit of measurement which will be passed by law thousands of years from now, in order to get this dimensionless number. The law for this unit of measurement had to be passed before the message could ever come to light. How many laws have been passed in regards to units of measurements? This brings the universe you speak of down to the size of only a few particular laws which could ever make the message true and to see the day of light. In addition to this, one of these few laws had to give the correct numerical data after the conversion was performed. How many units of measurements can give the correct numbers after conversion? There is only 1, and it was passed by law. Now, where is this universe you speak of now? It's simply vanished. This is so powerful, there can be no argument against it. This is called shooting a bullseye before the target was given. You also didn't link the 80 with the specific name of the planet which Jules Verne knew in advance would be removed. In addition to this, you are still wrong, because mercury isn't really a planet. It's actually a satellite of the sun, as the moon is a satellite of the earth. It's impossible to prove this evidence wrong, especially if you're going to have 80 represent two prominent bodies in space to shadow two prominent structures of the bible along with a city which has the meaning of what it is shadowing. Also, you didn't use simple mathematics to show intelligence for the message where the bodies in heaven
perfectly match the different dimensions for each of the structures built on earth, along with the city. Yes, each of the structures built on earth had different dimensions while each of them provided the same numerical results as the others by using the same mathematics by finding their area (L*W*H). This also shows intelligence while ruling out both cosmic and earthly coincidence. This is spectacular if you think about it. The same argument used for the bible codes saying it can be done with any book can't be used here. I knew you would use this argument, and this is why I never brought up the bible codes.
Gravock
Quote from: Qwert on November 10, 2012, 11:59:11 AM
https://www.google.com/search?q=christianity+prohibits+numerology&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a (https://www.google.com/search?q=christianity+prohibits+numerology&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)
I suggest you read or listen to the Books of Adam and Eve along with the Books of Enoch. You referenced a lie from the adversary which takes things out of context. What it means by not 'observing times', 'astrology', 'numerology' etc, simply means not to worship these things. People of the past worshiped and made gods of the moon, sun, the stars, etc.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 12:21:11 PM
I suggest you read or listen to the Books of Adam and Eve along with the Books of Enoch. You referenced a lie from the adversary which takes things out of context. What it means by not 'observing times', 'astrology', 'numerology' etc, simply means not to worship these things. People of the past worshiped and made gods of the moon, sun, the stars, etc.
Gravock
What kind of denomination you are?
Quote from: Qwert on November 10, 2012, 01:15:56 PM
What kind of denomination you are?
I grew up Baptist as a Christian and I have studied Islam and other religions. I am non-denominational according to worldly terms. The Quran tells us not to split up into different denominations or sects, but this is what the adversary has created to pollute religion with. I am a believer in God, and this is my religious faith according to the word of God.
Gravock
The Books of Adam and Eve were rejected in the biblical cannon because the early church fathers didn't believe or accept reincarnation. The books of Enoch was also rejected from the biblical cannon because the early church fathers didn't believe or accept the passage found in Genesis referred to heavenly beings, 'the sons of God saw the daughters of men were beautiful and took them as wives', which the books of Enoch made very clear this passage did refer to heavenly beings and not to the sons of men. The book of Ezekiel was almost rejected by the early church fathers, due to it's language referring to UFO's or life outside of this planet (a wheel inside a wheel. And when the wheels lifted off the ground, the creatures lifted off the ground also, because they were inside the wheels).
Gravock
All men who had previously been deceived by the adversay, including Adam and Eve will have a life experience on this earth in the end of days where absolute proof of God's existence is revealed. God made a covenant with Adam and Eve telling them He will restore them to their former state at the end of the 5,500 years. All men, throughout the history of mankind, will have this opportunity to either reject or accept God. This way, mankind can not say the adversary tricked him into rejecting God, as was done so many times before. It's all in the books of Adam and Eve. Check it out!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 01:23:49 PM
I grew up Baptist as a Christian and I have studied Islam and other religions. I am non-denominational according to worldly terms. The Quran tells us not to split up into different denominations or sects, but this is what the adversary has created to pollute religion with. I am a believer in God, and this is my religious faith according to the word of God.
Gravock
I see. Thus this allows you to follow all kind of divination, including numerology. Following this kind of reasoning, I understand that numerology alone can lead one to the redemption: numerology uses some golden rules; a foot is equal of exactly twelve inches. But everybody knows that foot (and also other parts) not always equals exactly these golden numbers since for shorter or longer guys it differs. So, it look like only those whose body parts follow exactly the golden rules, those can count on redemption, others have no chance. Stupid reasoning? Like many other examples in the bible.
Quote from: Qwert on November 10, 2012, 02:51:13 PM
I see. Thus this allows you to follow all kind of divination, including numerology. Following this kind of reasoning, I understand that numerology alone can lead one to the redemption: numerology uses some golden rules; a foot is equal of exactly twelve inches. But everybody knows that foot (and also other parts) not always equals exactly these golden numbers since for shorter or longer guys it differs. So, it look like only those whose body parts follow exactly the golden rules, those can count on redemption, others have no chance. Stupid reasoning? Like many other examples in the bible.
Somebody rejecting a book because it doesn't fit into their own beliefs allows me to follow all kinds of divination? This is nonsense. It's the other way around. Rejecting a book inspired by God because it doesn't fit into your own beliefs allows one to follow all kinds of divination, such as witchcraft. Do you know it says in Genesis, Enoch walked with God for 300 years. Why would anybody reject the books of Enoch in light of knowing he walked with God for 300 years? Nobody would, unless they had hidden motives, such as turning people from the truth. Besides, numbers are used all throughout the bible. 7 represents perfection and completeness. 6 represents falling short. The number of man and the beast is 666, meaning to grossly fall short. Jesus was raised on the third day. The number 3 has a meaning also. Really, I won't post the entire bible to prove my point. Redemption based on the golden rules isn't an example found in the bible (this is from your own illogical reasoning). You're grasping at straws!
Gravock
People of the past, and as they do today, use numbers to predict the future. This isn't allowed, because mankind alone isn't capable of correctly predicting the future with or without numbers, thus it leads people astray. However, God can correctly predict the future, so this isn't considered divination. Please note, God only used numbers in the message itself and to deliver this message. The numbers themselves didn't aid God in correctly predicting the future. Big difference! If you're right, and I know you're not, then I wouldn't want to be a banker, an accountant, or anyone else who uses numbers for a living. In addition to this, anyone who has ever 'observed times', such as a specific time to leave for work, or to meet someone at a specific time, etc. is condemned by your irrational logic.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 03:54:01 PM[...] God can correctly predict the future [...]
Not necessarily – or not necessarily
all of it...
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 12:17:26 PM
You didn't link the 80 with a particular unit of measurement that will be converted into another unit of measurement which will be passed by law thousands of years from now, in order to get this dimensionless number. The law for this unit of measurement had to be passed before the message could ever come to light. How many laws have been passed in regards to units of measurements?
I am not required to do any of these things. I can arrive at whatever number I want by whatever means I want, as long as the math adds up in the process. This is what you are doing with the Noah's Ark measurements. Where does it say that the numbers used for Noah's Ark must somehow equate to English measurements of distance? You just decided that they are related. Just like I am deciding that the digits of 80, when added up, relate to the number of planets in the solar system. Your decision was arbitrary, and so is mine.
And I am sorry, but I do not take your opinion of Mercury. There is a concensus among virtually all the world's astronomers that Mercury qualifies as a planet. It has cleared out all other objects in its orbit, and has whatever size characteristics and so forth that make a planet. So until there is a world concesus otherwise, Mercury is a planet, and Jules Verne correctly divined that it would be, and therefore Around the World in 80 Days must have been inspired by God Almighty, and anything to the contrary I dub heresy!
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 10, 2012, 04:34:39 PM
I am not required to do any of these things. I can arrive at whatever number I want by whatever means I want, as long as the math adds up in the process. This is what you are doing with the Noah's Ark measurements. Where does it say that the numbers used for Noah's Ark must somehow equate to English measurements of distance? You just decided that they are related. Just like I am deciding that the digits of 80, when added up, relate to the number of planets in the solar system. Your decision was arbitrary, and so is mine.
And I am sorry, but I do not take your opinion of Mercury. There is a concensus among virtually all the world's astronomers that Mercury qualifies as a planet. It has cleared out all other objects in its orbit, and has whatever size characteristics and so forth that make a planet. So until there is a world concesus otherwise, Mercury is a planet, and Jules Verne correctly divined that it would be, and therefore Around the World in 80 Days must have been inspired by God Almighty, and anything to the contrary I dub heresy!
Mercury has the properties of a satellite orbiting a planet, and not the properties of planets orbiting the sun. It has nothing to do with size characteristics as you wrongly stated. I'm in a hurry, and I may be gone for a day or two. However, I will give your last post more attention when I get back. A world consensus isn't needed for what it is, and that is being a satellite of the sun. If the world wants to call a dog a horse, then so be it, but it still doesn't change the fact that the dog is a different species than a horse.
Gravock
I just have to ask for clarification... .just how is a planet orbiting a sun, not a satellite of the sun? What is the difference between a planet and a satellite?
I think that the term "satellite" includes planets, since they are orbiting about a primary. And it also could even include suns, if they are orbiting another star. The Milky Way has several satellite galaxies, in fact.
Quote from: TinselKoala on November 10, 2012, 05:34:47 PM
I just have to ask for clarification... .just how is a planet orbiting a sun, not a satellite of the sun? What is the difference between a planet and a satellite?
I think that the term "satellite" includes planets, since they are orbiting about a primary. And it also could even include suns, if they are orbiting another star. The Milky Way has several satellite galaxies, in fact.
In the case of Mercury, science erroneously claimed that it revolved once on its axis for every revolution in orbit. They discarded their former assumption, and now erroneously maintain mercury rotates three times on it's axis for every two orbital revolutions. What happens is that Mercury has a very rapid axial rotation. This does not take place on the equatorial plane of the solar system, but at right angles to it. Mercury is really a satellite of the Sun and not, strictly speaking, a planet, because only satellites have this peculiarity.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 11:36:51 AM
In the case of Mercury, science erroneously claims that it revolves once on its axis for every revolution in orbit. What happens is that Mercury has a very rapid axial rotation. This does not take place on the equatorial plane of the solar system, but at right angles to it. Mercury is really a satellite of the Sun and not, strictly speaking, a planet, because only satellites have this peculiarity.
Gravock
Really? I wonder if you can cite a reference for that.
And what about Uranus, with an axial tilt of nearly 100 degrees to the ecliptic plane? Not a planet either, by your definition, I guess.
Actually, the difference between planets and satellites (natural) has to do with whether or not they are big and heavy enough to differentiate inside. Since Mercury has a magnetic field, it also is differentiated inside, likely having a small molten or crystal iron core like the Earth. This makes it a planet, even if it were wandering in space far from any sun.
Asteroids, and probably things like Pluto, aren't planets because they are uniform inside, no crust/mantle/core differentiation.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 11:36:51 AM
In the case of Mercury, science erroneously claims that it revolves once on its axis for every revolution in orbit. What happens is that Mercury has a very rapid axial rotation. This does not take place on the equatorial plane of the solar system, but at right angles to it. Mercury is really a satellite of the Sun and not, strictly speaking, a planet, because only satellites have this peculiarity.
Gravock
Gravock,
I have no idea where you got such erronous information.
Mercury has a very slow axial rotation, and its rotational axis deviates even less from the equatorial plane of the sun than other planets.
The former assumption of Mercury revolving once on its axis for every revolution in orbit whas discarded 1965 when radar observations proved that the planet has a 3:2 spin–orbit resonance, rotating three times for every two revolutions around the Sun; the eccentricity of Mercury's orbit makes this resonance stable—at perihelion, when the solar tide is strongest, the Sun is nearly still in Mercury's sky.
The original reason astronomers thought it was synchronously locked was that, whenever Mercury was best placed for observation, it was always nearly at the same point in its 3:2 resonance, hence showing the same face. This is because, coincidentally, Mercury's rotation period is almost exactly half of its synodic period with respect to Earth. Due to Mercury's 3:2 spin–orbit resonance, a solar day (the length between two meridian transits of the Sun) lasts about 176 Earth days. A sidereal day (the period of rotation) lasts about 58.7 Earth days.
QuoteThis does not take place on the equatorial plane of the solar system, but at right angles to it.
Could it be that you have misinterpreted the information, doing the erronous assumption that the rotational axis of Mercury was at right angles to the axial rotation of the other planets?
There
is a certain peculiarity about the axial rotation of planet Mercury though. Unlike other planets who most of them have some deviation in the axial tilt, Mercury's rotational axis stands perpendicular to its orbital plane with its axial tilt being almost zero, with the best measured value as low as 0.027 degrees. This is significantly smaller than that of Jupiter, which has the second smallest axial tilt of all planets at 3.1 degrees. This means that to an observer at Mercury's poles, the center of the Sun never rises more than 2.1 arcminutes above the horizon.
Gwandau
Quote from: TinselKoala on November 11, 2012, 05:46:34 PM
Really? I wonder if you can cite a reference for that.
And what about Uranus, with an axial tilt of nearly 100 degrees to the ecliptic plane? Not a planet either, by your definition, I guess.
Actually, the difference between planets and satellites (natural) has to do with whether or not they are big and heavy enough to differentiate inside. Since Mercury has a magnetic field, it also is differentiated inside, likely having a small molten or crystal iron core like the Earth. This makes it a planet, even if it were wandering in space far from any sun.
Asteroids, and probably things like Pluto, aren't planets because they are uniform inside, no crust/mantle/core differentiation.
A planet is attracted to the magnetic center of the solar system. This point of equilibrium of the solar system lay at a distance from the Sun equal to three times its diameter. It is round this point of equilibrium which the sun moves. When this magnetic center is between a planet and the sun, then the force of attraction is predominant and the planet is drawn in. However, when the sun is between a planet and the magnetic center, then the force of repulsion from the sun's light is predominant and the planet moves out. This describes the motion of the planets in their orbits.
However, the satellites are within the etheric covering of their respective planets which they orbit. This means they are more under the influence of the vertical component of magnetism of their respective planet in which they orbit instead of the magnetic center of the solar system.
In summary, a planet interacts with the magnetic center of the solar system, and the satellites interact more with the vertical component of magnetism of their respective planet. Mercury is inside the etheric covering of the sun, so it's more under the influence of the sun's magnetic attraction force instead of the magnetic center of the solar system, thus it's a satellite of the sun.
I can't cite any references, because earthly science believes in a real force of gravity. Their failure in being able to unite gravity with the other fundamental forces of nature should be a real concern which causes them to rethink their idea of gravity. However, they can't think past mass attracting mass, so I doubt this will happen. I have previously shown how gravity isn't a real force. Now I have shown how the planets and satellites are able to move without a real force of gravity.
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on November 11, 2012, 06:27:08 PM
Gravock,
I have no idea where you got such erronous information.
Mercury has a very slow axial rotation, and its rotational axis deviates even less from the equatorial plane of the sun than other planets.
The former assumption of Mercury revolving once on its axis for every revolution in orbit whas discarded 1965 when radar observations proved that the planet has a 3:2 spin–orbit resonance, rotating three times for every two revolutions around the Sun; the eccentricity of Mercury's orbit makes this resonance stable—at perihelion, when the solar tide is strongest, the Sun is nearly still in Mercury's sky.
The original reason astronomers thought it was synchronously locked was that, whenever Mercury was best placed for observation, it was always nearly at the same point in its 3:2 resonance, hence showing the same face. This is because, coincidentally, Mercury's rotation period is almost exactly half of its synodic period with respect to Earth. Due to Mercury's 3:2 spin–orbit resonance, a solar day (the length between two meridian transits of the Sun) lasts about 176 Earth days. A sidereal day (the period of rotation) lasts about 58.7 Earth days.
Could it be that you have misinterpreted the information, doing the erronous assumption that the rotational axis of Mercury was at right angles to the axial rotation of the other planets?
There is a certain peculiarity about the axial rotation of planet Mercury though. Unlike other planets who most of them have some deviation in the axial tilt, Mercury's rotational axis stands perpendicular to its orbital plane with its axial tilt being almost zero, with the best measured value as low as 0.027 degrees. This is significantly smaller than that of Jupiter, which has the second smallest axial tilt of all planets at 3.1 degrees. This means that to an observer at Mercury's poles, the center of the Sun never rises more than 2.1 arcminutes above the horizon.
Gwandau
Yes, they discarded their former assumption of one axial revolution per orbital revolution, so what makes you think their latter assumption of the 3:2 is correct and shouldn't be discarded like their former assumption? I modified my original post to better reflect their erroneous assumptions, both the former and the latter. We know their former assumption was erroneous, just like I stated. Thanks for proving this for me!
Gravock
Can you please explain, then, the operation and results of the Gravity Probe B experiment, in the light of your model of planetary motion? Also, consider the recent Cassini mission to Saturn and its moooons. This robotic spacecraft was sent on a ballistic (non-powered) trajectory across interplanetary space, using nothing more than Newtonian gravitational dynamics and the standard interpretation of the solar system's motions and their causes, and managed to hit its target nearly a BILLION MILES away with such accuracy that mid-course correction "burns" were not even needed. If there were corrections made for magnetic attraction or orbits around some point far outside the sun...... it's a pretty well-kept secret.
Right now the barycenter of the Solar System is located within the volume of the Sun, but it's not always so. In 2017 the Sun will wobble away from the barycenter and the barycenter will be outside the Solar volume for a while. It will reach an extreme distance out in around 2024, when it's almost a full Solar radius outside the surface of the Sun. Then the Sun will wobble back towards the barycenter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_System_Barycenter_2000-2050.png
I think you will find that orbits of planets calculated according to the actual barycenter DO in fact work out properly... otherwise we would not have been able to hit that mark (Titan) so accurately and land a robot on its surface. Nor would my telescope know where to point to find a planet or other astronomical object.
I agree, though, that gravity is not a force like electromagnetism or physical "pushing", and that electric effects have been neglected in cosmology and astrophysics. I'm just not sure to what degree they actually shape small objects like solar systems.
Quote from: TinselKoala on November 11, 2012, 07:32:36 PM
Can you please explain, then, the operation and results of the Gravity Probe B experiment, in the light of your model of planetary motion? Also, consider the recent Cassini mission to Saturn and its moooons. This robotic spacecraft was sent on a ballistic (non-powered) trajectory across interplanetary space, using nothing more than Newtonian gravitational dynamics and the standard interpretation of the solar system's motions and their causes, and managed to hit its target nearly a BILLION MILES away with such accuracy that mid-course correction "burns" were not even needed. If there were corrections made for magnetic attraction or orbits around some point far outside the sun...... it's a pretty well-kept secret.
Right now the barycenter of the Solar System is located within the volume of the Sun, but it's not always so. In 2017 the Sun will wobble away from the barycenter and the barycenter will be outside the Solar volume for a while. It will reach an extreme distance out in around 2024, when it's almost a full Solar radius outside the surface of the Sun. Then the Sun will wobble back towards the barycenter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_System_Barycenter_2000-2050.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_System_Barycenter_2000-2050.png)
I think you will find that orbits of planets calculated according to the actual barycenter DO in fact work out properly... otherwise we would not have been able to hit that mark (Titan) so accurately and land a robot on its surface. Nor would my telescope know where to point to find a planet or other astronomical object.
I agree, though, that gravity is not a force like electromagnetism or physical "pushing", and that electric effects have been neglected in cosmology and astrophysics. I'm just not sure to what degree they actually shape small objects like solar systems.
The magnetic attraction and the force of repulsion describes a planet's motion and provides for elliptical orbits, etc. They know this motion very well. If there wasn't a dynamic interaction between an attractive force and a repulsive force, then every planet would have a perfectly circular orbit around the sun according to Newtonian gravitation. This isn't the case. Think about it.
It wouldn't surprise me if Tesla's dynamic theory of gravity is close to what I'm saying.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 10, 2012, 11:49:37 AM
In the end, you'll probably be the last one left trying to show how we're silly. Good luck with that!
Gravock
LMFAO!!! i don't even have to be here... you do a fine job all by yourself of demonstrating just how asinine you can be. as demonstrated by your last several posts. ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 11, 2012, 08:10:23 PM
LMFAO!!! i don't even have to be here... you do a fine job all by yourself of demonstrating just how asinine you can be. as demonstrated by your last several posts. ::)
Yes, asinine in the sense it doesn't conform to your irrational logic and with your acceptance of irrational teachings by others.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 07:11:32 PM
Yes, they discarded their former assumption of one axial revolution per orbital revolution, so what makes you think their latter assumption of the 3:2 is correct and shouldn't be discarded like their former assumption? I modified my original post to better reflect their erroneous assumptions, both the former and the latter. We know their former assumption was erroneous, just like I stated. Thanks for proving this for me!
Gravock
Gravock,
you just discarded what several independent major scientific institutions recently have confirmed as fully validated observations, calling these observations assumptions! Woa!
This is either beginning to reek empty self importance mixed with a fair bit of stupor since you seem to be absolutely unaware about the exactitude of todays readings documented from our fairly close neighbour Mercury, or you are not to be relied upon as mentally stable. These are the only available alternatives in this embarrasing situation for you.
Or are you believeing what you say based upon same kind of resoning as your religious belief?
Is this going to be one of these God or no God logics of you again, empty of any scientifically accepted proof?
I have learnead alot about you guys here who conditionless have succumbed to a dogmatic religious system based on a mere theory. You claim things without proper return of proof, you continously avoid anything that would disturb your own paradigm.
If you actually had some proof to back your odd claim against all those modern well founded set of observed parameters telling you the opposite, YOU WOULD HAVE PRESENTED THESE.
WHY DON'T YOU PRESENT PROOF? WERE ARE YOUR SOURCES?
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 11, 2012, 08:46:12 PM
Gravock,
you just discarded what several independent major scientific institutions recently have confirmed as fully validated observations, calling these observations assumptions! Woa!
This is either beginning to reek empty self importance mixed with a fair bit of stupor since you seem to be absolutely unaware about the exactitude of todays readings documented from our fairly close neighbour Mercury, or you are not to be relied upon as mentally stable. These are the only available alternatives in this embarrasing situation for you.
Or are you believeing what you say based upon same kind of resoning as your religious belief?
Is this going to be one of these God or no God logics of you again, empty of any scientifically accepted proof?
I have learnead alot about you guys here who conditionless have succumbed to a dogmatic religious system based on a mere theory. You claim things without proper return of proof, you continously avoid anything that would disturb your own paradigm.
If you actually had some proof to back your odd claim against all those modern well founded set of observed parameters telling you the opposite, YOU WOULD HAVE PRESENTED THESE.
WHY DON'T YOU PRESENT PROOF? WERE ARE YOUR SOURCES?
Gwandau
I want to be there when you're standing before God and He says, He never knew you. You have never thought you were right about something, then find out later how wrong you were? Science has been wrong many of times in the past even when they thought it was completely confirmed. You and other non-believers think it's alright to try and turn religion upside down, but yet when a person does this with science, you laugh at him. What I'm doing to science is no different than what you're doing to religion. It's easy to see other peoples faults, but not your own. I hope you can see your own faults since I have brought them to light in trying to turn science upside down, as you try to do with religion.
You don't believe in Santa Clause, you don't debate this, or ask for evidence for his existence, etc., but yet this is what you do with God. If you don't believe in God just like you don't believe in Santa Claus, then why are you debating the existence of God and asking for proof, when you don't do this with Santa Claus? This tells me deep down inside you have a slight reason, feeling, or belief that maybe there is a God, and you're trying to confirm or deny this.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
You don't believe in Santa Clause, you don't debate this, or ask for evidence for his existence, etc., but yet this is what you do with God. If you don't believe in God just like you don't believe in Santa Claus, then why are you debating the existence of God and asking for proof, when you don't do this with Santa Claus? This tells me deep down inside you have a slight reason, feeling, or belief that maybe there is a God, and you're trying to confirm or deny this.
Gravock
The reason we debate the existence of God and not the existence of Santa Claus is first and foremost, no one believe in Santa, so there is no one to debate. Second, this world not not being negatively impacted by children's temporary belief in Santa Claus. Not so with religion.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
I want to be there when you're standing before God and He says, He never knew you. You have never thought you were right about something, then find out later how wrong you were? Science has been wrong many of times in the past even when they thought it was completely confirmed. You and other non-believers think it's alright to try and turn religion upside down, but yet when a person does this with science, you laugh at him. What I'm doing to science is no different than what you're doing to religion. It's easy to see other peoples faults, but not your own. I hope you can see your own faults since I have brought them to light in trying to turn science upside down, as you try to do with religion.
You don't believe in Santa Clause, you don't debate this, or ask for evidence for his existence, etc., but yet this is what you do with God. If you don't believe in God just like you don't believe in Santa Claus, then why are you debating the existence of God and asking for proof, when you don't do this with Santa Claus? This tells me deep down inside you have a slight reason, feeling, or belief that maybe there is a God, and you're trying to confirm or deny this.
Gravock
;) ;D
Magzimus leviticus
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 11, 2012, 09:16:30 PM
The reason we debate the existence of God and not the existence of Santa Claus is first and foremost, no one believe in Santa, so there is no one to debate. Second, this world not not being negatively impacted by children's temporary belief in Santa Claus. Not so with religion.
You don't think the world has been negatively impacted by science? I don't see you debating against science, yet you try to use science against religion. Religion itself hasn't negatively impacted the world. It's the people involved in religion, just like the people involved in science, who has negatively impacted the world . It's the people themselves who are the problem.
Gravock
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 11, 2012, 09:16:30 PM
Second, this world not not being negatively impacted by children's temporary belief in Santa Claus. Not so with religion.
And the Bible tells all about it. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
I want to be there when you're standing before God and He says, He never knew you.
how christian of you... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 09:13:22 PM
You have never thought you were right about something, then find out later how wrong you were? Science has been wrong many of times in the past even when they thought it was completely confirmed. You and other non-believers think it's alright to try and turn religion upside down, but yet when a person does this with science, you laugh at him. What I'm doing to science is no different than what you're doing to religion. It's easy to see other peoples faults, but not your own. I hope you can see your own faults since I have brought them to light in trying to turn science upside down, as you try to do with religion.
hey godtard... just because someone may have thought they were right about something and found out later they were wrong doesn't make that the case here. jesus christ! learn what a non sequitur is if you are going to have the temerity to speak of logic and illogic... ::) you godtards are so silly. ::)
furthermore, science is a process describing the systematic study of structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experimentation. it is fallible, which is why theories are repeatedly vetted. that which stands the test of time and endless scrutiny is eventually taught for the next generation to test, improve or disprove. this is nature of science, it is not perfect but it is self correcting...
religion is not a process, scripture is not based on systematic study, words on paper do not qualify as observable, none of the fantastical events are testable or even logical. the only explanation it offers is an assertion: god did it. the claim of divine origin implies infallibility, any attempt to question it is met with ostracisation, hostility or violence. this is the nature of religion, it claims to be perfect therefore there is no need for self correction.
now why don't you actually be honest and admit there is no more evidence for your imaginary godfairy than there is for any other imaginary godfairy... ::)
and thanks for demonstrating your insanity...
Quote from: gravityblock on November 08, 2012, 01:40:41 PM
Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting a different result is insanity. How would my next post be any different than my previous post which may have a different result. To continue this will be nothing less than insanity.
Gravock
Q.E.D.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 09:23:56 PM
You don't think the world has been negatively impacted by science? I don't see you debating against science, yet you try to use science against religion. Religion itself hasn't negatively impacted the world. It's the people involved in religion, just like the people involved in science, who has negatively impacted the world . It's the people themselves who are the problem.
Gravock
Science results in a set of truths. Most are used for good, some for harm. However, you cannot debate truth. For example, I can debate whether nuclear weapons should be used, but I cannot debate whether nuclear fission is possible.
Religion, on the other hand, has not established itself as a truth, so it can be debated.
As far as harm, you have to look no farther than the religious right's influence on America's Republican Party. If they had their way, certain people would illegalize abortion, even when life of the mother is at stake. Just one example. And you cannot have religion without people, so your comment on that is nonsensical.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 11, 2012, 09:39:25 PM
how christian of you... ::)
By being a witness doesn't make me a bad Christian. You guys may not know this, but you are crucifying Christ all over again and publicly disgracing Him, by saying God doesn't exist. If you see someone being murdered, does this make you a bad person because you witnessed this? Of course not, and it's complete nonsense to assert otherwise.
Hebrews 6:6, "Yet, they have deserted [Christ]. They are crucifying the Son of God again and publicly disgracing him. Therefore, they cannot be led a second time to God."
Gravock
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 11, 2012, 10:06:59 PM
As far as harm, you have to look no farther than the religious right's influence on America's Republican Party. If they had their way, certain people would illegalize abortion, even when life of the mother is at stake. Just one example. And you cannot have religion without people, so your comment on that is nonsensical.
I had this discussion the other day with a man and a woman. They are for abortion and I am not.
The man says he doesnt agree with it beyond a certain time into pregnancy. She would only say that it is the womans right.
Ron Paul said that he was taught that when he has a pregnant patient, that he was dealing with 2 patients.
Paul Ryan nicknamed his daughter Bean. Because when the sonogram first shown her heart beat, she was the size of a bean.
Where is your limit to when the abortion can happen?
I pose to the man I was speaking to, what if you had aborted your daughter? He said , well, I wouldnt have known her..
Thats just like my wife asking me if I would be interested in the girl behind the counter if she were not my wife, and I were to say yes I would.
That is not the answer she would want to hear. Why is that? Because I was able to imagine forgetting about our marriage and contemplating a new life with Ginger behind the counter, 'with my wife right there in front of me'. How uncaring can I be.
So, that man was easy to forget the love he is suppose to have for his daughter. Or maybe the love wasnt all that strong. or just a line to defend his position on abortion, and he is very happy he did not do so, and embarrassed to admit he allows it for everyone else. Or he would have said. Oh no, I would never have aborted my daughter. I would never trade her for the world. ;) "I love her" From the time she was the size of a bean. ;)
Some may not understand that kind of love.
And of course, men that want what they want, the way they want it, will be all for abortion. Makes things so much easier for their lifestyle. ::) No more baby daddy problems, but all the fun they can get.
Murder babies so you can have a good time. And the women that do it, especially repeatedly, are creating a generation that will next look at 'abortion' limits after birth. Of which is already being talked about. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 11, 2012, 10:51:46 PM
I had this discussion the other day with a man and a woman. They are for abortion and I am not.
The man says he doesnt agree with it beyond a certain time into pregnancy. She would only say that it is the womans right.
Ron Paul said that he was taught that when he has a pregnant patient, that he was dealing with 2 patients.
Paul Ryan nicknamed his daughter Bean. Because when the sonogram first shown her heart beat, she was the size of a bean.
Where is your limit to when the abortion can happen?
I pose to the man I was speaking to, what if you had aborted your daughter? He said , well, I wouldnt have known her..
Thats just like my wife asking me if I would be interested in the girl behind the counter if she were not my wife, and I were to say yes I would.
That is not the answer she would want to hear. Why is that? Because I was able to imagine forgetting about our marriage and contemplating a new life with Ginger behind the counter, 'with my wife right there in front of me'. How uncaring can I be.
So, that man was easy to forget the love he is suppose to have for his daughter. Or maybe the love wasnt all that strong. or just a line to defend his position on abortion, and he is very happy he did not do so, and embarrassed to admit he allows it for everyone else. Or he would have said. Oh no, I would never have aborted my daughter. I would never trade her for the world. ;) "I love her" From the time she was the size of a bean. ;)
Some may not understand that kind of love.
And of course, men that want what they want, the way they want it, will be all for abortion. Makes things so much easier for their lifestyle. ::) No more baby daddy problems, but all the fun they can get.
Murder babies so you can have a good time. And the women that do it, especially repeatedly, are creating a generation that will next look at 'abortion' limits after birth. Of which is already being talked about. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Women of the past didn't have birth control, yet this didn't stop women from prostituting themselves. They have uncovered many pits throughout the world where women working out of brothels just threw their newborn babies into these pits left to die. Hundreds and thousands of babies are being found in these pits. What a shame, and this isn't any different than what women are doing today by getting an abortion. Yes, it's all about lifestyle and taking the path of least resistance. There's nothing new under the sun!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 11:10:48 PM
Women of the past didn't have birth control, yet this didn't stop women from prostituting themselves. They have uncovered many pits throughout the world where women working out of brothels just threw their newborn babies into these pits left to die. Hundreds and thousands of babies are being found in these pits. What a shame, and this isn't much different than what women are doing today by getting an abortion. Yes, it's all about lifestyle and taking the path of least resistance.
Gravock
Hey G
I know these things exist. But now it will be a standard. :(
Mags
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 07:11:32 PM
Yes, they discarded their former assumption of one axial revolution per orbital revolution, so what makes you think their latter assumption of the 3:2 is correct and shouldn't be discarded like their former assumption? I modified my original post to better reflect their erroneous assumptions, both the former and the latter. We know their former assumption was erroneous, just like I stated. Thanks for proving this for me!
Gravock
Gravock,
Are you retracting your claim or are you showing us proof? Don't hink you can get away with such a claim without presenting proof. Who do you take us for?
SO DON'T TRY TO SNEAK AWAY LIKE A SNAKE HERE.
GIVES US PROOF OF MERCURY HAVING AN AXIAL ROTATION AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE EQUATORIAL PLANE OF THE SUN!
SINCE YOU HAVE NOT MADE ONE SINGLE ATTEMPT TO PRESENT PROOF, YOUR WILD ASSUMPTION IS AUTOMATICALLY DISCARDED BY EVERYONE BUT YOURSELF.
You see, science has it right regarding Mercury. Their observations are no assumptions, they are validated beyond doubt, same level of reliability that tells us the earth is round.
Some areas of astronomical data are irrefutably clear and has been repeatedly validated by independent observations. The documented rotational behaviour of Mercury is such data.
You are embarrasingly wrong this time, and you do not have the grace to admit it, poor guy.
Gwandau
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 11, 2012, 09:39:25 PM
and thanks for demonstrating your insanity...Q.E.D.
Ah, but the next post did have a different result, as I expected. ;)
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 11, 2012, 06:52:42 PM
snip...
I can't cite any references, because earthly science believes in a real force of gravity. Their failure in being able to unite gravity with the other fundamental forces of nature should be a real concern which causes them to rethink their idea of gravity. However, they can't think past mass attracting mass, so I doubt this will happen.
snip...
Well that depends on which "they" doesn't it.? If you take the relativistic view of gravity founded in the early 20th century, (and which is currently still the most widely accepted view by western astronomers and cosmologists) , then gravity is described as an effect, not a force.
It would seem you haven't yet caught up with the 20th century, let alone the 21st century.
Quote from: Gwandau on November 11, 2012, 11:17:23 PM
Gravock,
Are you retracting your claim or are you showing us proof? Don't hink you can get away with such a claim without presenting proof. Who do you take us for?
SO DON'T TRY TO SNEAK AWAY LIKE A SNAKE HERE.
GIVES US PROOF OF MERCURY HAVING AN AXIAL ROTATION AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE EQUATORIAL PLANE OF THE SUN!
SINCE YOU HAVE NOT MADE ONE SINGLE ATTEMPT TO PRESENT PROOF, YOUR WILD ASSUMPTION IS AUTOMATICALLY DISCARDED BY EVERYONE BUT YOURSELF.
You see, science has it right regarding Mercury. Their observations are no assumptions, they are validated beyond doubt, same level of reliability that tells us the earth is round.
Some areas of astronomical data are irrefutably clear and has been repeatedly validated by independent observations. The documented rotational behaviour of Mercury is such data.
You are embarrasingly wrong this time, and you do not have the grace to admit it, poor guy.
Gwandau
No, I'm not retracting my claim. They were wrong before, and they are wrong again. According to them, Mercury is the only body in the solar system known to have an orbital/rotational resonance with a
ratio other than 1:1. This is my proof that Mercury isn't behaving like the other planets with a resonance, thus it's a satellite of the sun. If it's not walking like a duck, and not quaking like a duck, then it's not a duck (planet).
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 12:20:46 AM
No, I'm not retracting my claim. They were wrong before, and they are wrong again. According to them, Mercury is the only body in the solar system known to have an orbital/rotational resonance with a ratio other than 1:1. This is my proof that Mercury isn't behaving like the other planets with a resonance, thus it's a satellite of the sun.
Gravock
So by your reasoning, if a dozen people act in a certain way, and a thirteenth person acts differently, then that person is not called a person, due to their different behaviour. ::)
Quote from: hoptoad on November 12, 2012, 12:26:08 AM
So by your reasoning, if a dozen people act in a certain way, and a thirteenth person acts differently, then that person is not a person, due to their different behaviour. ::)
No, but this isn't the case with an object such as Mercury which has no awareness of it's own to change it's behavior to that which it is not. Let's say we have a dozen rocks and a piece of petrified wood which looks similar in nature to the other rocks. Is this petrified piece of wood behaving differently than the other 12 rocks? No, so should we declare all 13 are rocks because they have the same behavior? No, but if we run experiments on these objects, then we'll see one of them is of a different nature than the other 12. This is the case with Mercury, which according to them, is the only body in the solar system with an orbital/rotational resonance which differ from the rest of the other planets.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 12:58:41 AM
No, but this isn't the case with an object such as Mercury which has no awareness of it's own to change it's behavior to that which it is not. Let's say we have a dozen rocks and a piece of petrified wood which looks similar in nature to the other rocks. Is this petrified piece of wood behaving differently than the other 12 rocks? No, so should be declare all 13 are rocks because they have the same behavior? No, but if we run experiments on these objects, then we'll see one of them is of a different nature than the other 12. This is the case with Mercury.
Gravock
All the planets have at least one unique property. They are all uniquely different, but they are all called planets by international agreement. Suits me.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 12, 2012, 12:19:11 AM
Well that depends on which "they" doesn't it.? If you take the relativistic view of gravity founded in the early 20th century, (and which is currently still the most widely accepted view by western astronomers and cosmologists) , then gravity is described as an effect, not a force.
It would seem you haven't yet caught up with the 20th century, let alone the 21st century.
An effect without a cause, like the Big Bang. I choose number 1 below. It's the most rational. And if gravity is described as an effect and not a force in the 21 century, then why are they trying to unify gravity with the other fundamental forces of nature? Makes no sense at all. You totally contradicted yourself, or is science contradicting itself. Doesn't really matter, because you believe this nonsense.
1.) Everything (effect) from God (cause).
2.) Everything (effect) from nothing (cause).
Gravock
Quote from: hoptoad on November 12, 2012, 01:15:24 AM
All the planets have at least one unique property. They are all uniquely different, but they are all called planets by international agreement. Suits me.
Yes, and all of the bodies in the solar system share the same orbital/revolution resonance except for one, which makes it different than the others. Categorize Mercury as a satellite as it is, then all of the planets in the solar system will share at least one common property so they may be referred to by the same name, such as planets.
Gravock
I have some questions maybe someone here can give me an answer?
God created this universe just for us humans?
Humans have souls, how about other species on this planet?
Does an aborted child have a soul and does it go to heaven or?
..........
......
..
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 01:55:59 AM
Yes, and all of the bodies in the solar system share the same orbital/revolution resonance except for one, which makes it different than the others. Categorize Mercury as a satellite as it is, then all of the planets in the solar system will share at least one common property so they may be referred to by the same name, such as planets.
Gravock
Tell those who write the textbooks, you're the only who seems to have a naming convention problem. I'm happy to accept that mercury is both a planet and a satellite according to current scientific nomenclature,
I feel you have more of a need to be seen to be right, than to be happy, so you immerse yourself in definitive semantics.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 12, 2012, 02:48:17 AM
Tell those who write the textbooks, you're the only who seems to have a naming convention problem. I'm happy to accept that mercury is both a planet and a satellite according to current scientific nomenclature,
I feel you have more of a need to be seen to be right, than to be happy, so you immerse yourself in definitive semantics.
No, I am not the only one who has a naming convention problem. And no, I'm not the one twisting everything around and putting a spin on things to appear to make myself look right. There are 19 moons in the Solar System that have achieved hydrostatic equilibrium and would be considered planets if only the physical parameters are considered. Both Jupiter's moon Ganymede and Saturn's moon Titan are larger than Mercury, and Titan even has a substantial atmosphere, thicker than the Earth's. Moons such as Io and Triton demonstrate obvious and ongoing geological activity, and Ganymede has a magnetic field. Just as stars in orbit around other stars are still referred to as stars, so some astronomers argue that objects in orbit around planets that share all their characteristics could also be called planets. Indeed Mike Brown makes just such a claim in his dissection of the issue, saying:
"It is hard to make a consistent argument that a 400 km iceball should count as a planet because it might have interesting geology, while a 5000 km satellite with a massive atmosphere, methane lakes, and dramatic storms [Titan] shouldn't be put into the same category, whatever you call it." However, he goes on to say that, "For most people, considering round satellites (including our Moon) "planets" violates the idea of what a planet is."
In other words, let's be inconsistent according to our preconceived ideas of what something should be.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 02:59:47 AM
snip...
There are 19 moons in the Solar System that have achieved hydrostatic equilibrium and would be considered planets if only the physical parameters are considered. Both Jupiter's moon Ganymede and Saturn's moon Titan are larger than Mercury, and Titan even has a substantial atmosphere, thicker than the Earth's. Moons such as Io and Triton demonstrate obvious and ongoing geological activity, and Ganymede has a magnetic field. Just as stars in orbit around other stars are still referred to as stars, so some astronomers argue that objects in orbit around planets that share all their characteristics could also be called planets. Indeed Mike Brown makes just such a claim in his dissection of the issue, saying:
"It is hard to make a consistent argument that a 400 km iceball should count as a planet because it might have interesting geology, while a 5000 km satellite with a massive atmosphere, methane lakes, and dramatic storms [Titan] shouldn't be put into the same category, whatever you call it." However, he goes on to say that, "For most people, considering round satellites (including our Moon) "planets" violates the idea of what a planet is."
In other words, let's be inconsistent according to our preconceived ideas of what something should be.
Gravock
I agree with almost everything you just said, but I don't write the textbooks, and frankly I don't care. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet. While you're hung up on naming conventions, astronomers have been busily processing the data sent from mercury by their explorer spacecraft Messenger.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/messenger/main/index.html
Since Nasa's influence is just a wee bit greater than mine, I suggest you could start lobbying for more consistency with and perhaps through them.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 12, 2012, 03:16:35 AM
I agree with almost everything you just said, but I don't write the textbooks, and frankly I don't care. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet. While you're hung up on naming conventions, astronomers have been busily processing the data sent from mercury by their explorer spacecraft Messenger.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/messenger/main/index.html (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/messenger/main/index.html)
Since Nasa's influence is just a wee bit greater than mine, I suggest you could start lobbying for more consistency with and perhaps through them.
I am fully aware of messenger. This doesn't mean much to me, because NASA is a cover up for the real space program. I'll give you an example. A group of astronomers have reported the discovery of a new planet possibly inhabitable close to the solar system (40 light years) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3mVTWmlcjM&feature=related). A group of astronomers can make this discovery with small telescopes at 40 light years away, but NASA can't confirm a massive body on the edge of our solar system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJXVlc-XMso&feature=related) which is 4 times the size of Jupiter? LOL. NASA's WISE could confirm Tyche, but then they conveniently claim they had to shut down WISE. How can it be a hypothetical when they know it's 4 times the size of Jupiter and is made of hydrogen and helium along with where it's located? This doesn't sound hypothetical to me. Besides, NASA has known about Tyche since 1983 and it was on major US news then, but in 1984 NASA tried to cover it up. Here's a video explaining our Binary Solar System (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g80mghpxPU). Everybody knows they airbrush stuff out of photos. They're only going to tell you what they want you to know, regardless if it's true or not. Then, the general public believes their B.S.! Of course, this is how they continue to receive funding for the real space program.
Gravock
90 pages of pretentiousness and sanctimony from the godtards and still no extant material evidence nor a logical proof of the existence of their imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 04:12:16 AM
90 pages of pretentiousness and sanctimony from the godtards and still no extant material evidence nor a logical proof of the existence of their imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
You wouldn't accept it even if God manifested right before your eyes and kissed you on the forehead. You would claim it was your imagination. LOL. It's so easy to dismiss something by attributing it to something else. This is a form of witchcraft.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 04:12:16 AM
90 pages of pretentiousness and sanctimony from the godtards and still no extant material evidence nor a logical proof of the existence of their imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
Or even, it seems, a lighthearted crack at presenting a probability. I started out with infinity against, then thought a computer might give more favourable odds at 50/50, but now I'm beginning to think
42 is more likely. Hmmmm, if I only knew the right question .. deep thought ..... KneeDeep
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:18:30 AM
You wouldn't accept it even if God manifested right before your eyes and kissed you on the forehead. You would claim it was your imagination. LOL. It's so easy to dismiss something by attributing it to something else. This is a form of witchcraft.
Gravock
another logical fallacy instead of substantiating your fantastical claim. ::) imagine that!
there you go again being asinine and pretentious... ::) how stupid are you? you don't know me, and you certainly don't know what i wouldn't accept you sanctimonious godtard. ::)
bring your godfairy (he knows where i live right? he's omnipotent, omniscient and all that delusional crap) over for bbq on fri. nov. 16 2012. if he can create a rock that is too heavy to lift and then lift it, i'll think about bending my knee... until then, you and your retarded delusions can fuck off.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:06:45 AM
I am fully aware of messenger. This doesn't mean much to me, because NASA is a cover up for the real space program. I'll give you an example. A group of astronomers have reported the discovery of a new planet possibly inhabitable close to the solar system (40 light years) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3mVTWmlcjM&feature=related). A group of astronomers can make this discovery with small telescopes at 40 light years away, but NASA can't confirm a massive body on the edge of our solar system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJXVlc-XMso&feature=related) which is 4 times the size of Jupiter? LOL. NASA's WISE could confirm Tyche, but then they conveniently claim they had to shut down WISE. How can it be a hypothetical when they know it's 4 times the size of Jupiter and is made of hydrogen and helium along with where it's located? This doesn't sound hypothetical to me. Besides, NASA has known about Tyche since 1983 and it was on major US news then, but in 1984 NASA tried to cover it up. Here's a video explaining our Binary Solar System (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g80mghpxPU). Everybody knows they airbrush stuff out of photos. They're only going to tell you what they want you to know, regardless if it's true or not. Then, the general public believes their B.S.! Of course, this is how they continue to receive funding for the real space program.
Gravock
Conspiracy problems? Take two aspirin and call the euro space agency in the morning? Oh that's right, its a world wide conspiracy, don't call them either, they'll call you!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 04:29:57 AM
there you go again being asinine and pretentious... ::) how stupid are you? you don't know me, and you certainly don't know what i wouldn't accept you sanctimonious godtard. ::)
bring your godfairy (he knows where i live right? he's omnipotent, omniscient and all that delusional crap) over for bbq on fri. nov. 16 2012 and i'll think about bending my knee... until then, you and your retarded delusions can fuck off.
Then please tell me what you would accept? This way I'm not left guessing.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:33:44 AM
Then please tell me what you would accept? This way I'm not left guessing.
Gravock
i've stated it numerous times godtard... pay attention or shut the fuck up.
PRESENT A SINGLE SHRED OF EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE AND OR A LOGICAL PROOF FOR THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR IMAGINARY GODFAIRY SAVIOR/CREATOR FRIEND.
EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE OR A LOGICAL PROOF.if you don't know what constitutes those two things... educate yourself, LEARN SOMETHING!
Quote from: hoptoad on November 12, 2012, 04:31:06 AM
Conspiracy problems? Take two aspirin and call the euro space agency in the morning? Oh that's right, its a world wide conspiracy, don't call them either, they'll call you!
Yes, a worldwide conspiracy problem.
1.) Fluoride: It's dangerous to swallow the toothpaste, yet it's OK to put it in our drinking water.
2.) Mercury: It's too dangerous to put in thermostats, yet it's OK to inject it into our bodies.
3.) Genetically Modified Foods: It will kill the pests, yet it's OK for you to eat it.
4.) Aspartame: Designed as a biological weapon, yet it's OK to ingest it.
5.) MSG: Poisonous
6.) AIDS: Let's pool everyones plasma together, then give it back to them. Originally known as GRID.
7.) Teflon: Let's create a nonstick pan which will leak 1,000's of chemicals into the food their cooking.
8.) Aluminum: Let's put aluminum in everyone's antiperspirant so they get breast cancer, Alzheimer, etc.
9.) Is this enough evidence for a worldwide conspiracy yet? And these are the people who you put your faith into. LOL
..........
..............
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:45:31 AM
Yes, a worldwide conspiracy problem.
1.) Fluoride: It's dangerous to swallow the toothpaste, yet it's OK to put it in our drinking water.
2.) Mercury: It's too dangerous to put in thermostats, yet it's OK to inject it into our bodies.
3.) Genetically Modified Foods: It will kill the pests, yet it's OK for you to eat it.
4.) Aspartame: Designed as a biological weapon, yet it's OK to ingest it.
5.) MSG: Poisonous
6.) AIDS: Let's pool everyones plasma together, then give it back to them. Originally known as GRID.
7.) Teflon: Let's create a nonstick pan which will leak 1,000's of chemicals into the food their cooking.
8.) Aluminum: Let's put aluminum in everyone's antiperspirant so they get breast cancer, Alzheimer, etc.
9.) Is this enough evidence for a worldwide conspiracy yet? And these are the people who you put your faith into. LOL
..........
..............
Gravock
what does any of the above psychobabble have to do with NASA and tyche?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 04:40:43 AM
i've stated it numerous times godtard... pay attention or shut the fuck up.
PRESENT A SINGLE SHRED OF EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE AND OR A LOGICAL PROOF FOR THE EXISTENCE OF YOUR IMAGINARY GODFAIRY SAVIOR/CREATOR FRIEND.
EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE OR A LOGICAL PROOF.
if you don't know what constitutes those two things... educate yourself, LEARN SOMETHING!
This is subjective. What may be logical proof for one, may not be for another. What may be extant material evidence for one, may not be for another. You can't give me anything specific can you? You can't, and you won't, because then you lose your 'extant material evidence or logical proof' argument.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 04:48:04 AM
what does any of the above psychobabble have to do with NASA and tyche?
The above is your way of putting a spin on things. It doesn't have anything to do with NASA or Tyche. It has to do with your implied statement that a worldwide conspiracy doesn't exist, and I showed otherwise.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:52:05 AM
This is subjective. What may be logical proof for one, may not be for another. What may be extant material evidence for one, may not be for another. You can't give me anything specific can you? You can't, and you won't, because then you lose your 'extant material evidence or logical proof' argument.
Gravock
This is the right question to ask, because you're afraid to give me anything specific because you'll then lose your extant material and logical proof argument. You're a coward!
Gravock
Intermission time .... popcorn anybody, liquid refreshments, perhaps a segway or two?
Quote from: hoptoad on November 12, 2012, 05:26:23 AM
Intermission time .... popcorn anybody, refreshements, perhaps a segway or two?
Good idea!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:52:05 AM
This is subjective. What may be logical proof for one, may not be for another. What may be extant material evidence for one, may not be for another. You can't give me anything specific can you? You can't, and you won't, because then you lose your 'extant material evidence or logical proof' argument.
Gravock
no it's not subjective you godtard... ::)
logical is logical... as in COGENT. as in you can't use the non sequiturs you are so fond of... ::)
extant is extant. as in EXISTING. look up the definition instead of making up your own as usual. ::)
since you're so godtarded as to require it to be spelled out for you, a picture drawn, etc. i'll say it AGAIN... ::)
bring your godfairy (he knows where i live right? he's omnipotent, omniscient and all that delusional crap) over for bbq on fri. nov. 16 2012. if he can create a rock that is too heavy to lift and then lift it, i'll think about bending my knee... until then, you and your retarded delusions can fuck off.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:54:05 AM
The above is your way of putting a spin on things. It doesn't have anything to do with NASA or Tyche. It has to do with your implied statement that a worldwide conspiracy doesn't exist, and I showed otherwise.
Gravock
so it's just another one of your red herring, logically fallacious reponses... ::) imagine that!
and what the hell are you talking about? i haven't implied a worldwide conspiracy doesn't exist... in point of fact, i haven't said jack squat about a world wide conspiracy. ::)
you didn't show anything, other than that the only response you can ever seem to muster is a logical fallacy.
jesus effing christ... pay attention. ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 07:01:14 AMjesus effing christ...
I'm wondering why so many people feel like invoking a form of the Latin name of a Jewish person (especially in Hollywood movies or series from NY)...
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on November 12, 2012, 08:48:05 AM
I'm wondering why so many people feel like invoking a form of the Latin name of a Jewish person (especially in Hollywood movies or series from NY)...
i can't speak for others but i do it because i am an iconoclast.
regardless, defiling gods is an ancient human tradition. and as you know, so many people are traditionalists. ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 06:53:54 AM
no it's not subjective you godtard... ::)
logical is logical... as in COGENT. as in you can't use the non sequiturs you are so fond of... ::)
extant is extant. as in EXISTING. look up the definition instead of making up your own as usual. ::)
since you're so godtarded as to require it to be spelled out for you, a picture drawn, etc. i'll say it AGAIN... ::)
bring your godfairy (he knows where i live right? he's omnipotent, omniscient and all that delusional crap) over for bbq on fri. nov. 16 2012. if he can create a rock that is too heavy to lift and then lift it, i'll think about bending my knee... until then, you and your retarded delusions can fuck off.
So, if I understand you correctly, your proof that God doesn't exist, is God can't create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift. If He can't lift the rock, then He can't do everything. If He can lift the rock, then He can't do everything, because He couldn't make a rock too heavy to lift. This is absurd, and isn't logical. Is this your logical proof that God doesn't exist? Asking God to do something which is contradictory to itself is irrational as one can get. This doesn't prove what God can do or what He can't do, but it does prove your ignorance. Then you have the audacity to call the evidence which has been provided as proof of God, which this evidence isn't contradictory to itself, as irrational.
This is really a bad question, because the question itself tries to limit God by using contradictory terms in order to prove He can't do everything. Let me show how we can remove these limitations which the question itself wrongly tries to impose on God. God creates a rock which is too heavy to lift. He then fills a container with water that is holding this rock, and easily lifts the rock (objects way less in water). This may not be the best example, but it's definitely a much better and rational answer than the question itself. Please don't say you can do this also, and this makes you God, for I will tell you to create your own water instead of using the same water God created. You can't do anything on your own outside of what God has already provided for you!
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 09:07:58 AM
i can't speak for others but i do it because i am an iconoclast.
regardless, defiling gods is an ancient human tradition. and as you know, so many people are traditionalists. ;)
Monkey see, monkey do. You should be proud of yourself for having the intellect of a monkey.
Gravock
Gravock,
Everything you have presented on this forum has been theories, and this is perfectly OK as log as you are aware that they are mere theories.
New theories are actually quite interesting, at least when they are backed up with substantial counter arguments that challenges the contemporary ideas.
But claiming a wild theory of yours to be the undisputable truth without the faintest signs of any evidence based arguments only adds to your diminishing reputation here at OU.
Quote
What happens is that Mercury has a very rapid axial rotation. This does not take place on the equatorial plane of the solar system, but at right angles to it. .....only satellites have this peculiarity.
Do you still claim that? Even if these arguments opposes the irrefutable data aquired by all those well equipped observatories wordwide? This is not an "assumption" as you suggest, it is hard core facts. The former rotational information was however based upon an assumption due to lack of sufficient technology. Today the technology behind the Mercury observations are highly accurate and no longer an assumption. Still you doubt these simple facts.
Do you understand why your reputation here at OU are getting kind of low?
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 11, 2012, 11:17:23 PM
Gravock,
Are you retracting your claim or are you showing us proof? Don't hink you can get away with such a claim without presenting proof. Who do you take us for?
SO DON'T TRY TO SNEAK AWAY LIKE A SNAKE HERE.
GIVES US PROOF OF MERCURY HAVING AN AXIAL ROTATION AT RIGHT ANGLES TO THE EQUATORIAL PLANE OF THE SUN!
SINCE YOU HAVE NOT MADE ONE SINGLE ATTEMPT TO PRESENT PROOF, YOUR WILD ASSUMPTION IS AUTOMATICALLY DISCARDED BY EVERYONE BUT YOURSELF.
You see, science has it right regarding Mercury. Their observations are no assumptions, they are validated beyond doubt, same level of reliability that tells us the earth is round.
Some areas of astronomical data are irrefutably clear and has been repeatedly validated by independent observations. The documented rotational behaviour of Mercury is such data.
You are embarrasingly wrong this time, and you do not have the grace to admit it, poor guy.
Gwandau
This is what their observations has confirmed so far. Please note, what they confirm is only based on their observational viewpoint only. From the view point on earth, Mercury has a 1:1 resonance (confirmed). From the view point outside of earth, Mercury has a 3:2 resonance (confirmed). From the view point outside the solar system, Mercury has a rapid axial rotation at right angles to the equatorial plane of the sun (unconfirmed). So, in reality, what has been observed to date, is only confirmation that things change according to their particular viewing perspective. TK said it best as found in the quote below:
"Ah, I see. Yes, you've unlocked the secret of the esoteric Grand Year, the complete precessional cycle that defines the Ages of Man on Earth. And you've explained it very well too. Seen from a Being far away and with temporal Vision, the trail of the Earth's orbit around the sun would trace out your helical path (not spiral) as you say and would not actually "close" for the full 27 thousand years, about. But from an even greater Being's viewpoint even further out.... the Sun itself is moving, bobbing up and down thru the Galactic plane on its orbit around the Galactic center.... it's now halfway through its 19th orbit, passing through the local Arm on its way to one of the interarm Gaps, rushing almost directly away from the star Sirius at over 300 km/sec. From that perspective it will take something like one eighteenth of 4.7 billion "standard" years, or a bit over a quarter of a billion years, for the Even Grandest Year to conclude. This is all covered in the Vedanta, by the way, as you probably know."
You think there confirmation is validated beyond a doubt based on what they observe from a very limited viewpoint proves me wrong. Are you really this narrow minded? You're the one who is embarrassingly wrong this time and I'm sure you have too much pride to admit it.
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on November 12, 2012, 03:32:00 PM
Gravock,
Everything you have presented on this forum has been theories, and this is perfectly OK as log as you are aware that they are mere theories.
New theories are actually quite interesting, at least when they are backed up with substantial counter arguments that challenges the contemporary ideas.
But claiming a wild theory of yours to be the undisputable truth without the faintest signs of any evidence based arguments only adds to your diminishing reputation here at OU.
Do you still claim that? Even if these arguments opposes the irrefutable data aquired by all those well equipped observatories wordwide? This is not an "assumption" as you suggest, it is hard core facts. The former rotational information was however based upon an assumption due to lack of sufficient technology. Today the technology behind the Mercury observations are highly accurate and no longer an assumption. Still you doubt these simple facts.
Do you understand why your reputation here at OU are getting kind of low?
Gwandau
Who are you to say what my reputation is? Do you speak for everyone here? Do you think for everyone here? People are narrow minded, and have a tendency not to see what is beyond their own perception. I on the other hand, am open minded, and try to see what is beyond my own perception. If this ruins my reputation, then so be it, because I refuse to limit my thinking. I'm not here to be the most popular or the most liked. I don't want to be like everyone else, according to how I perceive most to be. If you conceive a limit, then what is beyond that limit. If everyone agreed with you or with me, wouldn't this make things dull and uninteresting? Of course it would, yet you condemn me for having ideas which you don't accept. I have shown how their observations doesn't confirm that I am wrong in regards to Mercury. If you can't accept this, then I feel bad for you. You speak bad of my reputation, yet you embrace the reputation of Wilby's. Really? Let's get real! Maybe you should take a better look at your own reputation and the reputation of others which you may embrace, before worrying about mine.
Gravock
From the view point outside the solar system? :o :o :o
Suddenly a clown comes jumping out of the box with the hilarious "From the view point outside the solar system". Give me a brake.
Where did your old reference point go, the one only refering to the equatorial plane? Am I chasing you out of the solar system? ;D ;D ;D
Of course everything depends upon the viewpoint chosen, you may get a million different orbital paths depending on the reference taken by the observer.
Claim any orbital deviation you want, just refer to the point of reference in the celestial neighbourhood needed for that observation.
You sure are a slippery snake, and I am getting bored of this spineless attitude of sneaking away from the subject.
Maybe the other guys will make you self aware, who knows.
I'm leaving this thread for good. Thrash around in this insane playground with your RedNeck Neanderthal buddies as much as you want, I can't stand the reek anymore.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 12, 2012, 04:39:19 PM
From the view point outside the solar system? :o :o :o
Suddenly a clown comes jumping out of the box with the hilarious "From the view point outside the solar system". Give me a brake.
Where did your old reference point go, the one only refering to the equatorial plane? Am I chasing you out of the solar system? ;D ;D ;D
Of course everything depends upon the viewpoint chosen, you may get a million different orbital paths depending on the reference taken by the observer.
Claim any orbital deviation you want, just refer to the point of reference in the celestial neighbourhood needed for that observation.
You sure are a slippery snake, and I am getting bored of this spineless attitude of sneaking away from the subject.
Maybe the other guys will make you self aware, who knows.
I'm leaving this thread for good. Thrash around in this insane playground with your RedNeck Neanderthal buddies as much as you want, I can't stand the reek anymore.
Gwandau
So, what is it? Does Mercury have a 1:1, a 3:2, or some other nonzero resonance? Isn't this part of the relativity theory which you so dearly hold on to? It can have all kinds of resonances, right, according to your reference frame? If this is the case, then why did you try to use it against me? Because in reality, it proves nothing in and of itself (a slippery snake in disguise). I guess a person can tell themselves anything and make themselves believe it.
Gravock
Gravock,
Before I leave this thread definitely I want to say I'm sorry for being rude. I am just a little dissapointed with those of you that continously refuse to back up your claims.
We have to back upp our claims with substantial data. There is no alternative to that rule.
Even when it comes to our personal belief systems.
If I was a deep believer in your god, and felt the presence all around me, making me certain beyond doubts that god is, I would still not know anything in the scientific sense.
It would be a strictly personal conviction based upon my own subjective experience.
Remember to keep a humble approach to any other belief system. The road you walk may not be the only true one. What makes you believe there is only one true road?
And remember to differ between facts and theory.
Gwandau
Is it possible that Gravok has forgotten that we have a robot spacecraft orbiting Mercury right now?
QuoteTraveling to Mercury requires an extremely large velocity change (see delta-v (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v)) because Mercury's orbit is deep in the Sun's gravity well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_well). If on a direct course from Earth to Mercury, a spacecraft is constantly accelerated as it falls toward the Sun, and arrives at Mercury with a velocity too high to achieve orbit without excessive use of fuel. For planets with an atmosphere, such as Venus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus) and Mars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars), spacecraft can minimize their fuel consumption upon arrival by using friction with the atmosphere to enter orbit (aerocapture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerocapture)), or can briefly fire their rocket engines to enter into orbit followed by a reduction of the orbit by aerobraking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobraking). However, the tenuous atmosphere of Mercury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mercury) is far too thin for these maneuvers. Instead, MESSENGER extensively used gravity assist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_assist) maneuvers at Earth, Venus, and Mercury to reduce the speed relative to Mercury, then used its large rocket engine to enter into an elliptical orbit around the planet. The multi-flyby process greatly reduced the amount of propellant necessary to slow the spacecraft, but at the cost of prolonging the trip by many years and to a total distance of 4.9 billion miles. To further minimize the amount of necessary propellant, the spacecraft orbital insertion targeted a highly elliptical orbit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliptical_orbit) around Mercury.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MESSENGER
Funny... .Newton's Law of Gravity, and the ordinary interpretation of how planets (including Mercury) orbit the Sun... sufficed to get Messenger into orbit at Mercury.
We know a lot about Mercury now, much more than before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28planet%29
Quote from: TinselKoala on November 12, 2012, 07:42:21 PM
Is it possible that Gravok has forgotten that we have a robot spacecraft orbiting Mercury right now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MESSENGER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MESSENGER)
Funny... .Newton's Law of Gravity, and the ordinary interpretation of how planets (including Mercury) orbit the Sun... sufficed to get Messenger into orbit at Mercury.
We know a lot about Mercury now, much more than before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28planet%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28planet%29)
I already said in a previous post I am fully aware of messenger. Why is it a big deal that NASA can hit their target? How is this any more miraculous than a person who shoots a clay pigeon out of the air without any instrumentations to aid them with only a split second to make the judgment of where to aim? Mercury's current orbit is nearly the same as it's previous orbit. This is all they need in order to hit their target.
Gravock
And Earth's orbit, and Venus's orbit, and the Sun's orbit, and perturbations from Jupiter, and relative motions in space.....and magnetic fields and electric fields and a lot more that I can't even begin to imagine. To try to substitute the interesting speculations of spiritually motivated philosophers for centuries of real scientific exploration, which has taken us to the point where we can build a mission like Messenger and have it so spectacurlarly succeed, is imho profoundly disrespectful of the efforts of those real scholars and scientists who have achieved these kinds of goals. When an alternate model such as those you describe produces experimental results as spectacular as Messenger or Gravity Probe B, or makes predictions that turn out to be true that the standard model does not.... then perhaps people will pay more attention.
Quote from: TinselKoala on November 12, 2012, 08:35:01 PM
And Earth's orbit, and Venus's orbit, and the Sun's orbit, and perturbations from Jupiter, and relative motions in space.....and magnetic fields and electric fields and a lot more that I can't even begin to imagine. To try to substitute the interesting speculations of spiritually motivated philosophers for centuries of real scientific exploration, which has taken us to the point where we can build a mission like Messenger and have it so spectacurlarly succeed, is imho profoundly disrespectful of the efforts of those real scholars and scientists who have achieved these kinds of goals. When an alternate model such as those you describe produces experimental results as spectacular as Messenger or Gravity Probe B, or makes predictions that turn out to be true that the standard model does not.... then perhaps people will pay more attention.
According to you, all that was needed was Newton's law of gravity. Now all of the sudden we must take into account perturbations from Jupiter, magnetic and electric fields, etc. I do not disagree with that, but you must admit you downplayed it by implying only Newton's law of gravity is needed for NASA to hit its target. Another thing, we don't have the funding in which they do, so this isn't a level playing field. We should expect more from them, than somebody who has no funding. Also, this has nothing to do with religious or spiritually motivated philosophies. Please, show me where it does.
Scientists have got their terminology mixed. It appeared to them that the only thing that could conceivably maintain the Earth in orbit and account for its revolution was solar attraction, so they based all their calculations on this. In reality the opposite is the case. The Sun exerts a repulsive force on the Earth. Further, as it was obvious to them that a body could not maintain itself in an orbit when acted upon by a single force, they impute miraculous qualities to centrifugal force, believing that it was the second force that held the planets in their orbits. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Even if centrifugal force did give the necessary balance to a planet, which it does not, there is one glaring omission in this theory, namely the force that impels a planet in a certain direction. They see that a planet is attracted, they also see that centrifugal force counterbalances this attraction, but they do not see that they have overlooked a third force which gives a planet movement. When one whirls a stone on the end of a string, the string represents the force of attraction and centrifugal force plays the part of repulsion, but the individual represents the third force which gives direction to the stone.
If y = F or f= y x M, then the element of propulsion F is necessary to make the Earth move, since it is this that imparts an acceleration to the mass M. It is logical that a body to which acceleration has been imparted should begin to move, but it is absurd to state that this acceleration could be initiated without a force and then maintained without one, especially as there is a loss of energy as the result of the movement of the body against the action of gravity.
Jupiter, with a mass 317 times greater than that of the Earth, should be subject to a far greater attraction than the Earth, yet the velocity in orbit is not high enough to counterbalance this and maintain it in orbit. This planet has a large mass and a low velocity. This being the case, either the orbital velocity of the Earth is too great for its mass, and it should be flung out of its orbit, or Jupiter's is too low, and it should be drawn into the Sun. Note that I give Jupiter's mass as 317 times that of the Earth, which is based on the force of attraction of the Sun against centrifugal force. This figure, however, is incorrect and is actually 331. Having explained this, we can understand why planets of large volume are situated at a considerable distance from the Sun. By taking note of their distance from the Sun and their volume, we can discover their true density, and this will also give us the magnetic force of its poles. Thus the planet Jupiter is of low density and, having a large diameter, it is more subject to the force of repulsion than that of attraction. If it were true that matter attracted matter in direct proportion to the mass of the bodies, Jupiter, with a volume 1,330 times greater than Earth and 331 times as much mass, should be much closer to the Sun than Earth is.
You might raise the objection that Jupiter, with its large mass, revolves in an outer orbit according to the theory that spheres of greater mass are said to be more subject to the action of centrifugal force. Against this we have the case of Mars which is smaller than the Earth, yet is farther from the Sun, or again, the planets beyond Jupiter which are smaller than it, and yet revolve at a tremendous distance from the Sun. Moreover their velocity in orbit is very low. So that does not make sense either.
Scientists forgot, when dealing with the movement of planets, that energy must have been used up as a result of solar attraction working against the two centrifugal forces mentioned. If no explanation was given as to the source of power necessary to sustain the movement, then it is because the problem was based on false premises.
In the theory which I contend is the correct one, this force is derived from difference of energy potential which sunlight sets up by illuminating one face of the planet while leaving the other in darkness. A body which is balanced between two opposing forces (attraction and repulsion) has no weight and moves like a stone whirled round on the end of a string, the radius of its orbit being represented by the string.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 12:58:27 PM
So, if I understand you correctly, your proof that God doesn't exist, is God can't create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift. If He can't lift the rock, then He can't do everything. If He can lift the rock, then He can't do everything, because He couldn't make a rock too heavy to lift. This is absurd, and isn't logical. Is this your logical proof that God doesn't exist? Asking God to do something which is contradictory to itself is irrational as one can get. This doesn't prove what God can do or what He can't do, but it does prove your ignorance. Then you have the audacity to call the evidence which has been provided as proof of God, which this evidence isn't contradictory to itself, as irrational.
This is really a bad question, because the question itself tries to limit God by using contradictory terms in order to prove He can't do everything. Let me show how we can remove these limitations which the question itself wrongly tries to impose on God. God creates a rock which is too heavy to lift. He then fills a container with water that is holding this rock, and easily lifts the rock (objects way less in water). This may not be the best example, but it's definitely a much better and rational answer than the question itself. Please don't say you can do this also, and this makes you God, for I will tell you to create your own water instead of using the same water God created. You can't do anything on your own outside of what God has already provided for you!
Gravock
no, you moronic godtard... ::) YOU ASKED WHAT EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE I WOULD ACCEPT... ::) i have have NEVER CLAIMED "proof that god doesn't exist"... IDIOT
I HAVE ASKED YOU REPEATEDLY FOR YOU TO PRESENT EVIDENCE THAT HE DOES EXIST.
EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE AND/OR A LOGICAL PROOF.
AND YOU REPEATEDLY RESPOND WITH EVERY LOGICAL FALLACY KNOWN... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 01:53:51 PM
Monkey see, monkey do. You should be proud of yourself for having the intellect of a monkey.
Gravock
that still puts me ahead of you... the godtard with NO intellect... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:50:04 PM
I guess a person can tell themselves anything and make themselves believe it.
Gravock
you godtards are certainly evidence of that... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 08:53:20 PM
Scientists have got their terminology mixed. It appeared to them that the only thing that could conceivably maintain the Earth in orbit and account for its revolution was solar attraction, so they based all their calculations on this. In reality the opposite is the case. The Sun exerts a repulsive force on the Earth. Further, as it was obvious to them that a body could not maintain itself in an orbit when acted upon by a single force, they impute miraculous qualities to centrifugal force, believing that it was the second force that held the planets in their orbits. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Even if centrifugal force did give the necessary balance to a planet, which it does not, there is one glaring omission in this theory, namely the force that impels a planet in a certain direction. They see that a planet is attracted, they also see that centrifugal force counterbalances this attraction, but they do not see that they have overlooked a third force which gives a planet movement. When one whirls a stone on the end of a string, the string represents the force of attraction and centrifugal force plays the part of repulsion, but the individual represents the third force which gives direction to the stone.
If y = F or f= y x M, then the element of propulsion F is necessary to make the Earth move, since it is this that imparts an acceleration to the mass M. It is logical that a body to which acceleration has been imparted should begin to move, but it is absurd to state that this acceleration could be initiated without a force and then maintained without one, especially as there is a loss of energy as the result of the movement of the body against the action of gravity.
Jupiter, with a mass 317 times greater than that of the Earth, should be subject to a far greater attraction than the Earth, yet the velocity in orbit is not high enough to counterbalance this and maintain it in orbit. This planet has a large mass and a low velocity. This being the case, either the orbital velocity of the Earth is too great for its mass, and it should be flung out of its orbit, or Jupiter's is too low, and it should be drawn into the Sun. Note that I give Jupiter's mass as 317 times that of the Earth, which is based on the force of attraction of the Sun against centrifugal force. This figure, however, is incorrect and is actually 331. Having explained this, we can understand why planets of large volume are situated at a considerable distance from the Sun. By taking note of their distance from the Sun and their volume, we can discover their true density, and this will also give us the magnetic force of its poles. Thus the planet Jupiter is of low density and, having a large diameter, it is more subject to the force of repulsion than that of attraction. If it were true that matter attracted matter in direct proportion to the mass of the bodies, Jupiter, with a volume 1,330 times greater than Earth and 331 times as much mass, should be much closer to the Sun than Earth is.
You might raise the objection that Jupiter, with its large mass, revolves in an outer orbit according to the theory that spheres of greater mass are said to be more subject to the action of centrifugal force. Against this we have the case of Mars which is smaller than the Earth, yet is farther from the Sun, or again, the planets beyond Jupiter which are smaller than it, and yet revolve at a tremendous distance from the Sun. Moreover their velocity in orbit is very low. So that does not make sense either.
Scientists forgot, when dealing with the movement of planets, that energy must have been used up as a result of solar attraction working against the two centrifugal forces mentioned. If no explanation was given as to the source of power necessary to sustain the movement, then it is because the problem was based on false premises.
In the theory which I contend is the correct one, this force is derived from difference of energy potential which sunlight sets up by illuminating one face of the planet while leaving the other in darkness. A body which is balanced between two opposing forces (attraction and repulsion) has no weight and moves like a stone whirled round on the end of a string, the radius of its orbit being represented by the string.
Gravock
Where are you getting all this nonsense? Planets stay in orbit due to only 2 factors, the gravity of the Sun and their own inertia. Planets want to keep on a straight path tangential to the Sun, but the Sun pulls them in with gravity, so there is an equlibrium. Presumably, during the early days of our solar system, there were more collisions and so forth, and the planets we ended up with are those that were able to maintain a stable orbit.
Jupiter does not fall into the sun, despite its huge mass, because it is farther away from the Sun than the earth is, where the Sun's pull is weaker.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:50:04 PM
snip....
I guess a person can tell themselves anything and make themselves believe it.
Gravock
You certainly are proof of that.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 12, 2012, 11:16:15 PM
Where are you getting all this nonsense? Planets stay in orbit due to only 2 factors, the gravity of the Sun and their own inertia. Planets want to keep on a straight path tangential to the Sun, but the Sun pulls them in with gravity, so there is an equlibrium. Presumably, during the early days of our solar system, there were more collisions and so forth, and the planets we ended up with are those that were able to maintain a stable orbit.
Jupiter does not fall into the sun, despite its huge mass, because it is farther away from the Sun than the earth is, where the Sun's pull is weaker.
You really believe in a pulling force of gravity?
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 12, 2012, 06:53:54 AM
no it's not subjective you godtard... ::)
logical is logical... as in COGENT. as in you can't use the non sequiturs you are so fond of... ::)
extant is extant. as in EXISTING. look up the definition instead of making up your own as usual. ::)
since you're so godtarded as to require it to be spelled out for you, a picture drawn, etc. i'll say it AGAIN... ::)
bring your godfairy (he knows where i live right? he's omnipotent, omniscient and all that delusional crap) over for bbq on fri. nov. 16 2012. if he can create a rock that is too heavy to lift and then lift it, i'll think about bending my knee... until then, you and your retarded delusions can fuck off.
Ok, so a picture drawn is extant material and logical evidence for Absolute Proof of God's Existence (http://davebunnell.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/absolute-proof-of-god.pdf).
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 11:35:14 PM
You really believe in a pulling force of gravity?
Gravock
Yes. We observe this all the time. How would you explain tides, for example? Highest tide of all is when Moon and Sun are aligned together.
Why are we stuck to the surface of the earth?
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 11:49:00 PM
Ok, so a picture drawn is extant material and logical evidence for Absolute Proof of God's Existence (http://davebunnell.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/absolute-proof-of-god.pdf).
Works for me, but only if I can see it, and no one else can!
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 13, 2012, 12:05:14 AM
Yes. We observe this all the time. How would you explain tides, for example? Highest tide of all is when Moon and Sun are aligned together.
Why are we stuck to the surface of the earth?
How do you explain water in a free fall weightless environment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4JrhW2aO6I&feature=related)? Does the water disperse? No it holds together. What causes it to hold together? Is it having it's own gravity or is there an outside force holding it together? Remember, at that distance from the earth, the gravitational force is still 90-95%, and this rules out surface tension as a possible answer to what is holding the water together. If this doesn't convince you, then how do you explain the tablet not breaking up the surface tension allowing the water to disperse? Then we have the experiments by Dr. Ricardo Carezani's (Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lzd86ZYf_o&feature=related). I don't subscribe to the pico-graviton theory, but it may suggest gravity is a pushing force as does the water experiment. The most rational explanation is a universal centripetal pressure holding the water together, thus gravity is more than likely a pushing force.
Here's my explanation and it also describes how we're stuck to the earth. There's a centripetal force or pressure within the universe. Wherever you place yourself in the universe, you will experience an equal pressure from all directions, thus you would have no movement on your own. Only an external force can impart movement to a body. When you place a massive body near your location, then this massive body interferes or shields you from this universal pressure in one particular direction, according to it's density and volume. This causes a net force to be applied from the other direction which causes this universal pressure to push you towards the larger mass. This means there is no attraction or interaction between the two bodies in space (mass does not attract mass).
Sunlight reflected from the Moon exerts a pressure on the liquid mass of the ocean. Being compressed at one point, this liquid is raised up at another. This is the explanation of the retardation of tides caused by the Moon. Do you have a plausible explaination for the discrepancy in gravitational-tidal theory, when applied to massive fresh-water lakes, as they do not experience tides, though the gravitational-tidal theory indicates that they "should"?
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 11:49:00 PM
Ok, so a picture drawn is extant material and logical evidence for Absolute Proof of God's Existence (http://davebunnell.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/absolute-proof-of-god.pdf).
Gravock
how godtarded can you be? ::) jesus christ you are mental...
no godtard... a picture drawn is NOT extant material evidence nor a logical proof for your imaginary godfairy. nor did i ever say it was. i said and i quote:
"since you're so godtarded as to require it to be spelled out for you, a picture drawn, etc. i'll say it AGAIN... ::)
bring your godfairy (he knows where i live right? he's omnipotent, omniscient and all that delusional crap) over for bbq on fri. nov. 16 2012. if he can create a rock that is too heavy to lift and then lift it, i'll think about bending my knee... until then, you and your retarded delusions can fuck off."
this was in response for you asking what i would accept as extant material evidence... you godtard. ::)
thank you dave bunnell the godtard, for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 01:11:10 AM
how godtarded can you be? ::) jesus christ you are mental...
no godtard... a picture drawn is NOT extant material evidence nor a logical proof for your imaginary godfairy. nor did i ever say it was. i said and i quote
Damn, I was just about to sharpen my pencils and draw the great flying spaghetti monster, thereby proving she is the sauce of all being.
Oh well back to the lasagna.
LOL. What gives?
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 01:33:08 AM
extra cheesy? ;)
Yep, just what my doctor said I should avoid. .... Living dangerously .... KneeDeep
petroglyph of her noodlyness, your lord and master, the creator and shaper of the multiverse, the flying spaghetti monster.
absolute proof according to the godtard dave bunnell (gravityblock).
more absolute proof of the flying spaghetti monster according to dave bunnell the godtard.
she is trying to get in touch with you through crop circles.
the evidence keeps mounting... ::)
more petroglyphs providing ABSOLUTE PROOF of your lord and master, the flying spaghetti monster.
according to dave bunnell, the godtard, this evidence is indisputable.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 02:14:19 AM
petroglyph of her noodlyness, your lord and master, the creator and shaper of the multiverse, the flying spaghetti monster.
absolute proof according to the godtard dave bunnell (gravityblock).
Absolute proof of the flying spaghetti monster advocate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0DT6uljSbg) (wilbyinebriated).
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 02:30:31 AM
Absolute proof of the flying spaghetti monster advocate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0DT6uljSbg) (wilbyinebriated).
Gravock
thank you dave bunnell the godtard, for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.so your godfairy is anthropomorphic, temporal and spatial, therefore:
1.
if god exists, then the definition of god is self-consistent.
2. the definition of god is NOT self-consistent.
3. therefore, god does not and cannot exist.
modus tollens
i'm agnostic... you pretentious, sanctimonious godtard. i've stated this numerous times and this is PRECISELY why i keep asking you to present a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior creator friend... ::)
dave bunnell doesn't follow the bible unless it suits him... like most godtards, he is a heretic and a hypocrite who picks and chooses which verses he shall obey and disobeys the ones he doesn't like... ::)
case in point: according to his own words, his wife leads worship at their church... this is in clear violation of god's biblical commands. ::)
1 Tim. 2:9-14 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
dave bunnell the godtard (gravock, gravityblock) is NOT a TRUE CHRISTIAN! he is a servant of the great deceiver, satan!
Wilby, you need some serious help! It says, "Judge yourself, and you shall not be judged". For those who are disregarding scripture, then they'll be judged accordingly because they aren't judging themselves with the Word of God. We all fall short. We all sin. However, this doesn't mean its OK to practice it. Maybe you should write a letter to dave bunnell informing him of the scripture he's disregarding.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 03:48:57 AM
Wilby, you need some serious help! It says, "Judge yourself, and you shall not be judged". For those who are disregarding scripture, then they'll be judged accordingly because they aren't judging themselves with the Word of God. We all fall short. We all sin. However, this doesn't mean its OK to practice it. Maybe you should write a letter to dave bunnell informing him of the scripture he's disregarding.
Gravock
thank you dave bunnell the godtard, for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 02:58:42 AM
dave bunnell doesn't follow the bible unless it suits him... like most godtards, he is a heretic and a hypocrite who picks and chooses which verses he shall obey and disobeys the ones he doesn't like... ::)
case in point: according to his own words, his wife leads worship at their church... this is in clear violation of god's biblical commands. ::)
1 Tim. 2:9-14 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
dave bunnell the godtard (gravock, gravityblock) is NOT a TRUE CHRISTIAN! he is a servant of the great deceiver, satan!
Hey mustard!!! >:(
it seems that even you did not see satan yet you really believe, that's the way i smell it. :o
it really tells that you and satan have a relationship huh, you mustard i'll cook you!!!!!!! ;D lol
i think if you are not the deceiver, probably you are the receiver that has two anthena in the head. lol hahahahahhahahahhahahaha ;D
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lets cheers again buddy ;D
Wilby,
You're ate up!
Gravock
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on November 13, 2012, 03:52:17 AM
Hey mustard!!! >:(
it seems that even you did not see satan yet you really believe, that's the way i smell it. :o
it really tells that you and satan have a relationship huh, you mustard i'll cook you!!!!!!! ;D lol
i think if you are not the deceiver, probably you are the receiver that has two anthena in the head. lol hahahahahhahahahhahahaha ;D
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lets cheers again buddy ;D
teetsatan the prodigal godtard returns!!
did you bring some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? or are you just going to vomit all the same asinine, non cogent arguments you have used previously?
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 03:53:12 AM
Wilby,
You're ate up!
Gravock
so that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you cannot present either.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 03:59:07 AM
teetsatan the prodigal godtard returns!!
did you bring some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? or are you just going to vomit all the same asinine, non cogent arguments you have used previously?
Yes i have a full proof and bulletproof and its and only YOU cause you believe in satan therefore you are a satian ;D
lets cheers and enjoy, you MUSTARD !!!!!!!!!! >:( ;D
I'LL COOK YOU!!!!!!!!! ;D HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHH LOL
BYE LOVE YOU BUDDY ;) ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on November 13, 2012, 04:17:47 AM
Yes i have a full proof and bulletproof and its and only YOU cause you believe in satan therefore you are a satian ;D
lets cheers and enjoy, you MUSTARD !!!!!!!!!! >:( ;D
I'LL COOK YOU!!!!!!!!! ;D HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHH LOL
BYE LOVE YOU BUDDY ;) ;D
you godtards are so funny...
so that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you cannot present either.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 03:59:07 AM
teetsatan the prodigal godtard returns!!
did you bring some extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend? or are you just going to vomit all the same asinine, non cogent arguments you have used previously?
All arguments receive the same asinine vomit from you, "this isn't extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend?" It's a blanket argument which is always asserted without showing the reason behind it being illogical and/or not being extant material evidence. A dog always returns to it's own vomit. Now, go get yourself cleaned up so you can return to wallow in the mire again.
2 Peter 2:22 states, "What the true proverb says has happened to them: The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 04:23:12 AM
All arguments receive the same asinine vomit from you, "this isn't extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend?" It's a blanket argument which is always asserted without showing the reason behind it being illogical and/or not being extant material evidence. A dog always returns to it's own vomit. Now, go get yourself cleaned up so you can return to wallow in the mire again.
2 Peter 2:22 states, "What the true proverb says has happened to them: The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
Gravock
so that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you cannot present either.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 04:24:14 AM
so that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you cannot present either.
nO! SATIAN YOU REALLY ARE THE EXTANT MATERIAL CAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN SOMETHING YOU DID NOT SEE!. LOLBWAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA ;D
YOU ARE THE LIVING PROOF !!!!! YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS ;D
HAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA
LETS DRINK TO THAT AGAIN !!!!!!!! YEEEEEPPPPPPY. ;D
CHEEERS >:(
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 01:10:34 AM
How do you explain water in a free fall weightless environment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4JrhW2aO6I&feature=related)? Does the water disperse? No it holds together. What causes it to hold together? Is it having it's own gravity or is there an outside force holding it together? Remember, at that distance from the earth, the gravitational force is still 90-95%, and this rules out surface tension as a possible answer to what is holding the water together. If this doesn't convince you, then how do you explain the tablet not breaking up the surface tension allowing the water to disperse? Then we have the experiments by Dr. Ricardo Carezani's (Video) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lzd86ZYf_o&feature=related). I don't subscribe to the pico-graviton theory, but it may suggest gravity is a pushing force as does the water experiment. The most rational explanation is a universal centripetal pressure holding the water together, thus gravity is more than likely a pushing force.
Here's my explanation and it also describes how we're stuck to the earth. There's a centripetal force or pressure within the universe. Wherever you place yourself in the universe, you will experience an equal pressure from all directions, thus you would have no movement on your own. Only an external force can impart movement to a body. When you place a massive body near your location, then this massive body interferes or shields you from this universal pressure in one particular direction, according to it's density and volume. This causes a net force to be applied from the other direction which causes this universal pressure to push you towards the larger mass. This means there is no attraction or interaction between the two bodies in space (mass does not attract mass).
Sunlight reflected from the Moon exerts a pressure on the liquid mass of the ocean. Being compressed at one point, this liquid is raised up at another. This is the explanation of the retardation of tides caused by the Moon. Do you have a plausible explaination for the discrepancy in gravitational-tidal theory, when applied to massive fresh-water lakes, as they do not experience tides, though the gravitational-tidal theory indicates that they "should"?
Gravock
Water holds together in zero gravity due to electromagnetic bonding between the water molecules. This, however, is not what makes us stick to the earth.
And about this sunlight reflected from the moon business, why does the Sun cause less of a tide than the moon? It is so much brighter, after all.
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on November 13, 2012, 04:27:50 AM
nO! SATIAN YOU REALLY ARE THE EXTANT MATERIAL CAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN SOMETHING YOU DID NOT SEE!. LOLBWAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA ;D
YOU ARE THE LIVING PROOF !!!!! YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSS ;D
HAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHA
LETS DRINK TO THAT AGAIN !!!!!!!! YEEEEEPPPPPPY. ;D
CHEEERS >:(
so that's ANOTHER no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you cannot present either.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 13, 2012, 04:45:40 AM
And about this sunlight reflected from the moon business, why does the Sun cause less of a tide than the moon? It is so much brighter, after all.
i'm truly on the edge of my seat to read gravock the godtard's ad hoc rationalization to your inquiry... ;)
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 13, 2012, 04:45:40 AM
Water holds together in zero gravity due to electromagnetic bonding between the water molecules. This, however, is not what makes us stick to the earth.
And about this sunlight reflected from the moon business, why does the Sun cause less of a tide than the moon? It is so much brighter, after all.
The water isn't in zero gravity during the experiment. The electromagnetic bonding between the water molecules at the surface of the earth isn't strong enough to hold the water together, so why would it be strong enough to hold the water together at 90-95% of gravity during the experiment, especially when the tablet is introduced? You also didn't provide a plausible explanation in why there are no tides in the Great Lakes, etc, when the gravitational-tidal theory predicts there should be. The repulsive force of light easily explains this. The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. I never said the sun caused less of a tide than the moon. The reflected light from the moon causes a compression at one point, and the direct light from the sun a compression at another. Thus, it is that the tides are highest at the full moon, these two pressures then being conjoined.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 05:53:42 AM
The water isn't in zero gravity during the experiment. The electromagnetic bonding between the water molecules at the surface of the earth isn't strong enough to hold the water together, so why would it be strong enough to hold the water together at 90-95% of gravity during the experiment, especially when the tablet is introduced? You also didn't provide a plausible explanation in why there are no tides in the Great Lakes, etc, when the gravitational-tidal theory predicts there should be. The repulsive force of light easily explains this. The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. I never said the sun caused less of a tide than the moon. The reflected light from the moon causes a compression at one point, and the direct light from the sun a compression at another. Thus, it is that the tides are highest at the full moon, these two pressures then being conjoined.
Gravock
::) why don't these compressions due to light from the sun and the moon affect the great lakes?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 06:06:21 AM
::) why don't these compressions due to light from the sun and the moon affect the great lakes?
I already answered that. Here it is again:
The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. The Great Lakes don't have enough square miles to receive enough pressure.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 06:19:11 AM
I already answered that. Here it is again:
The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. The Great Lakes don't have enough square miles.
Gravock
yeah... your personal fiat declaration doesn't really hold much authority... ::) do you have any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to back up your asinine unsubstantiated claim?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 06:22:40 AM
yeah... your personal fiat declaration doesn't really hold much authority... ::) do you have any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to back up your asinine unsubstantiated claim?
Yes, the daily retardation of the tides is caused by the angle of the Sun to the Earth at the time.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 06:27:20 AM
Yes, the daily retardation of the tides is caused by the angle of the Sun to the Earth at the time.
Gravock
idiot. do you have any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS ASININE CLAIM OF YOURS?
"The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. The Great Lakes don't have enough square miles to receive enough pressure."
in other words... what experiments and methods have you PHYSICALLY APPLIED to substantiating your asinine speculation that "The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. The Great Lakes don't have enough square miles to receive enough pressure."
AND you're contradicting your holey babble... which says that what falls down must come back up... the resurrection, the ascension... :)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 06:33:13 AM
idiot. do you have any SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO SUBSTANTIATE THIS ASININE CLAIM OF YOURS?
"The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. The Great Lakes don't have enough square miles to receive enough pressure."
in other words... what experiments and methods have you PHYSICALLY APPLIED to substantiating your asinine speculation that "The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. The Great Lakes don't have enough square miles to receive enough pressure."
Do the experiment yourself. Fill your bathtub with water. Take a pencil and apply pressure to the water using the pencil. Do you get a wave? If not, take your satanic book and apply pressure to the water with the book. Did you get a wave this time? If you did, it's because there was more pressure over a larger area of water to create the wave. Common sense experiment a child could have figured out.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 06:37:58 AM
Do the experiment yourself. Fill your bathtub with water. Take a pencil and apply pressure to the water using the pencil. Do you get a wave? If not, take your satanic book and apply pressure to the water with the book. Did you get a wave this time? If you did, it's because there was more pressure over a larger area of water to create the wave. Common sense experiment a child could have figured out.
Gravock
a pencil? that's not light you idiot. neither is your satanic book (the bible).
i'll take your refusal to present any scientific evidence for your asinine claim as an admission that you have done no valid scientific experiment to substantiate your asinine claim. thank you.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 06:45:28 AM
a pencil? that's not light you idiot. neither is your satanic book (the bible).
i'll take your refusal to present any scientific evidence for your asinine claim as an admission that you have done no valid scientific experiment to substantiate your asinine claim. thank you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure)
Since the radiation pressure of light is much less than the pressure applied by your hand with the pencil and book, then it must be applied over a much much larger area before a wave is created. The Great Lakes isn't large enough to receive enough pressure from the light to create a wave.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 06:52:47 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
Since the radiation pressure of light is much less than the pressure applied by your hand with the pencil and book, then it must be applied over a much much larger area before a wave is created. The Great Lakes isn't large enough to receive enough pressure from the light for a wave to be created.
Gravock
i'll take your refusal to present any scientific evidence for your asinine claim as an admission that you have done no valid scientific experiment to substantiate your asinine claim. thank you.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 06:54:15 AM
i'll take your refusal to present any scientific evidence for your asinine claim as an admission that you have done no valid scientific experiment to substantiate your asinine claim. thank you.
What a way to be. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 06:57:52 AM
What a way to be. LOL
Gravock
that's what we all think of you.
get a laser, a known quantity of water, then illuminate it with said laser and measure this alleged 'displacement' or 'compression' you keep vomiting about. then do some math including known formulas for radiation pressure and present your findings... OR continue to to talk out of your pretentious, sanctimonious and hubristic ass.
::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 07:01:10 AM
that's what we all think of you.
get a laser, a known quantity of water, do some math including known formulas for radiation pressure and present your findings... OR continue to to talk out of your pretentious, sanctimonious and hubristic ass.
The gravitational-tidal theory predicts tidal waves in the Great Lakes, but this doesn't occur according to theory. So, the tides are more than likely not to due to the gravitational pull of the moon, especially since I provided additional scientific evidence showing how gravity is more than likely not a pulling force of attraction between masses. The gravitational-tidal theory and the pulling theory of gravity falls like dominoes when they're put up next to each other.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 07:08:57 AM
The gravitational-tidal theory predicts tidal waves in the Great Lakes, but this doesn't occur according to theory. So, the tides are more than likely not to due to the gravitational pull of the moon, especially since I provided additional scientific evidence showing how gravity is more than likely not a pulling force of attraction between masses. The gravitational-tidal theory and the pulling theory of gravity falls like dominoes when they're put up next to each other.
Gravock
idiot. i couldn't care less about the gravitational-tidal theory... I'M ASKING YOU FOR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE OF YOUR HYPOTHESIS. pointing out your imagined issues with another theory DOES NOT VALIDATE YOUR HYPOTHESIS!
you haven't shown ANYTHING that would be even REMOTELY CONSIDERED AS SCIENTIFIC in support of YOUR ASININE HYPOTHESIS.
and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you haven't a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend!
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 05:53:42 AM
The water isn't in zero gravity during the experiment. The electromagnetic bonding between the water molecules at the surface of the earth isn't strong enough to hold the water together, so why would it be strong enough to hold the water together at 90-95% of gravity during the experiment, especially when the tablet is introduced? You also didn't provide a plausible explanation in why there are no tides in the Great Lakes, etc, when the gravitational-tidal theory predicts there should be. The repulsive force of light easily explains this. The pressure of light applied per square mile over the Great Lakes isn't enough to cause a compression at one point to raise it up at another. I never said the sun caused less of a tide than the moon. The reflected light from the moon causes a compression at one point, and the direct light from the sun a compression at another. Thus, it is that the tides are highest at the full moon, these two pressures then being conjoined.
Gravock
Great Lakes do have tides exactly according to the gravity tidal theory, but the tides are only a few inches, and are lost among other factors, such as weather.
Gravity is stronger than the electromagentic attaction of the molecules at earth's surface, hence the effect only observed in zero gravity.
According to your light-attraction theory, the Sun should exhibit greater tidal force than the moon, as it is much brighter. Yet it does not. I know you did not assert this - it is a piece of evidence that contradicts your theory.
Gravock: after doing some reading, it appears you are trying to hang on to the Le Sage theory of gravitation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeSage_gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeSage_gravity)
It appears to have been thoroughly discredited. One thing it does explain is why the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, without the need for dark energy. But there is just no other evidence for it.
If god is everything then it is you also. And who created the word god ? humans.
If god is love, then remove all fear (put there bye human leaders wanting to control you)from holy books, then read it again.
Tommy
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 13, 2012, 08:55:34 AM
Great Lakes do have tides exactly according to the gravity tidal theory, but the tides are only a few inches, and are lost among other factors, such as weather.
Gravity is stronger than the electromagentic attaction of the molecules at earth's surface, hence the effect only observed in zero gravity.
According to your light-attraction theory, the Sun should exhibit greater tidal force than the moon, as it is much brighter. Yet it does not. I know you did not assert this - it is a piece of evidence that contradicts your theory.
For the third time, the effect isn't being observed in zero gravity. The effect is being observed in free-fall (weightlessness) at nearly the same strength of gravity at the surface of earth. You can do the same experiment in an airplane during free-fall experiments that is much closer to the surface of the earth and obtain the same results. The water being held together has nothing to do with earth's gravity or with the electromagnetic attraction of the molecules. Both the strength of gravity and the strength of the electromagnetic attraction of the molecules are nearly the same at both the earth's surface and on the space shuttle in free-fall (or in an airplane following a parabolic path while experiencing free-fall). Then you have the tablet, which easily breaks the strength of electromagnetic attraction of the molecules which you refer to, both at the surface and in free-fall above the earth.
If you apply an even pressure over the entire body of water, then the water can't be compressed at one point and raised up at another point to create a wave. This happens when the sun is more directly over the body of the water. However, when the sun is at more of an angle to the earth and the body of water, then the pressure of light isn't evenly distributed over the entire body of water, then the water can be compressed at one point and raised up at another to create a wave. This is the cause for retardation of the tides. As you can see, your logic in saying the sun should exhibit greater tidal force than the moon based on being much brighter is flawed, and it's not a piece of evidence that contradicts the theory as you wrongly assert.
Gravock
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 13, 2012, 09:02:08 AM
Gravock: after doing some reading, it appears you are trying to hang on to the Le Sage theory of gravitation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeSage_gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeSage_gravity)
It appears to have been thoroughly discredited. One thing it does explain is why the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, without the need for dark energy. But there is just no other evidence for it.
I have already said I don't subscribe to the pico-graviton theory, which is nearly the same as LeSage gravity. Both are based on tiny unseen hypothetical particles. However, the pico-graviton experiments, as does the water sphere experiment, does show gravity isn't a pulling force of attraction between masses. This also proves the gravitational-tidal theory wrong, since there is no pulling force of the moon. Thus, there is a centripetal pressure in the universe, and this is seen in the flight of the nebulae, in the expansion of the universe (without the need for dark energy as you correctly stated), in the pico-graviton experiment, and in the water sphere experiment.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 06:54:15 AM
i'll take your refusal to present any scientific evidence for your asinine claim as an admission that you have done no valid scientific experiment to substantiate your asinine claim. thank you.
How is observing nature any different than observing an experiment which you or I may devise? The scientific experiment you refer to, which substantiates my claim, is being provided by observing nature. Do you really think it's necessary for mankind to devise an experiment which mimics nature, a requirement before it can be considered scientific evidence? To wrongly imply or assert it is necessary, as you have done, is asinine!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 02:41:09 PM
For the third time, the effect isn't being observed in zero gravity. The effect is being observed in free-fall (weightlessness) at nearly the same strength of gravity at the surface of earth. You can do the same experiment in an airplane during free-fall experiments that is much closer to the surface of the earth and obtain the same results. The water being held together has nothing to do with earth's gravity or with the electromagnetic attraction of the molecules. Both the strength of gravity and the strength of the electromagnetic attraction of the molecules are nearly the same at both the earth's surface and on the space shuttle in free-fall (or in an airplane following a parabolic path while experiencing free-fall). Then you have the tablet, which easily breaks the strength of electromagnetic attraction of the molecules which you refer to, both at the surface and in free-fall above the earth.
If you apply an even pressure over the entire body of water, then the water can't be compressed at one point and raised up at another point to create a wave. This happens when the sun is more directly over the body of the water. However, when the sun is at more of an angle to the earth and the body of water, then the pressure of light isn't evenly distributed over the entire body of water, then the water can be compressed at one point and raised up at another to create a wave. This is the cause for retardation of the tides. As you can see, your logic in saying the sun should exhibit greater tidal force than the moon based on being much brighter is flawed, and it's not a piece of evidence that contradicts the theory as you wrongly assert.
Gravock
Regarding the water experiment, let me rephrase. The water is in a condition of weighlessness, as it is in freefall, which I cannot see how is distinguishable from zero gravity for the purposes of this experiment (actually there is no such thing as zero gravity, as gravity goes on forever in a diminishing fashion). In free fall, just like in outer space, electromagnetic force would be the strongest force acting on the water molecules, as there no weight from gravity, so the water composes itself into a ball. With gravity, it is forced to flatten out.
Anyway, I see where this is going. You are coming up with an alternate view of the universe with forces that you try to make consistent with what you see. You posit that gravity repels, and you make up a "universal pressure" that counteracts gravity. But it actually does sound like you are just making this up, so at this point I have to ask for credible current sources that support this, and what experimental proof they rely on to reach this theory. Because everything I have read about this theory (or maybe just similar theories, since you assert some uniqueness) points to it being disproved a long time ago.
Per Occam's Razor, if we see two massive objects in space attracted to each other, the logical cause of this is actual attraction, and not replusion, counteracted somehow by a mysterious, unexplained, "universal pressure", which is somehow present in exactly the correct vectors to make it look like gravity is pulling, and not repulsing. So I cannot accept this theory merely on your word.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 13, 2012, 06:38:28 PM
Regarding the water experiment, let me rephrase. The water is in a condition of weighlessness, as it is in freefall, which I cannot see how is distinguishable from zero gravity for the purposes of this experiment (actually there is no such thing as zero gravity, as gravity goes on forever in a diminishing fashion). In free fall, just like in outer space, electromagnetic force would be the strongest force acting on the water molecules, as there no weight from gravity, so the water composes itself into a ball. With gravity, it is forced to flatten out.
Anyway, I see where this is going. You are coming up with an alternate view of the universe with forces that you try to make consistent with what you see. You posit that gravity repels, and you make up a "universal pressure" that counteracts gravity. But it actually does sound like you are just making this up, so at this point I have to ask for credible current sources that support this, and what experimental proof they rely on to reach this theory. Because everything I have read about this theory (or maybe just similar theories, since you assert some uniqueness) points to it being disproved a long time ago.
Per Occam's Razor, if we see two massive objects in space attracted to each other, the logical cause of this is actual attraction, and not replusion, counteracted somehow by a mysterious, unexplained, "universal pressure", which is somehow present in exactly the correct vectors to make it look like gravity is pulling, and not repulsing. So I cannot accept this theory merely on your word.
The electromagnetic attraction of the water molecules has nothing to do with the water forming into a sphere, even in a weightless environment. First you say the bonds of the water molecules hold the water together in a weightless environment. Now you're implying the bonds of the water form it into a sphere. Like I have said for the forth time, the tablet easily overcomes the electromagnetic attraction of the water molecules. Pouring water from one container into another container also overcomes this. This bond which your imputing miraculous powers to is extremely weak, and in no way could both hold the water together and to form it into the shape of a sphere in a weightless environment. How is the bonds of the water molecules forming it into a sphere? A universal centripetal pressure can do this, but not the bonds of the water molecules. Also, the waves which are generated by the introduction of the air bubble is also sufficient to overcome this extremely weak bond of the the water molecules. I know what this universal pressure is. I haven't completely explained it to you yet, but I have eluded to it in my posts. Actually you have eluded to it also, but you didn't make a clear distinction between this centripetal pressure (Light of the entire electromagnetic spectrum from a myriad of suns and stars in the various galaxies) and another thing (electromagnetic attraction of the water molecules). We need to take baby steps, because you're still drinking milk as babes do, when you should be eating meat by now.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 07:13:28 PM
snip...
We need to take baby steps, because you're still drinking milk as babes do, when you should be eating meat by now.
Gravock
The way you present completely unsubstantiated theories, whilst hopping from one diversionery subject to another and trying to associate them via segways, I think you must be drinking something a little stronger than milk.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 07:13:28 PM
The electromagnetic attraction of the water molecules has nothing to do with the water forming into a sphere, even in a weightless environment. First you say the bonds of the water molecules hold the water together in a weightless environment. Now you're implying the bonds of the water form it into a sphere. Like I have said for the forth time, the tablet easily overcomes the electromagnetic attraction of the water molecules. Pouring water from one container into another container also overcomes this. This bond which your imputing miraculous powers to is extremely weak, and in no way could both hold the water together and to form it into the shape of a sphere in a weightless environment. How is the bonds of the water molecules forming it into a sphere? A universal centripetal pressure can do this, but not the bonds of the water molecules. Also, the waves which are generated by the introduction of the air bubble is also sufficient to overcome this extremely weak bond of the the water molecules. I know what this universal pressure is. I haven't completely explained it to you yet, but I have eluded to it in my posts. Actually you have eluded to it also, but you didn't make a clear distinction between this centripetal pressure (Light of the entire electromagnetic spectrum from a myriad of suns and stars in the various galaxies) and another thing (electromagnetic attraction of the water molecules). We need to take baby steps, because you're still drinking milk as babes do, when you should be eating meat by now.
Gravock
What is so confusing? The oxygen end of the H2O molecule has a certain charge, and the H2 end has the opposite charge. This is what holds water molecules together, and a sphere is the most logical shape for a small mass of water.
Here is my source, a university site: http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/basics/main/chmtxt.htm (http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/basics/main/chmtxt.htm)
You have not answered my request for a citation of sources for your theory. What experiments have been performed that confirm your theory? There have been plenty that confirm mine.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 13, 2012, 08:35:46 PM
The way you present completely unsubstantiated theories, whilst hopping from one diversionery subject to another and trying to associate them via segways, I think you must be drinking something a little stronger than milk.
He's drinking a secret christian equivalent of ambrosia - the God's drink.
Something in subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake
Quote from: hoptoad on November 13, 2012, 08:35:46 PM
The way you present completely unsubstantiated theories, whilst hopping from one diversionery subject to another and trying to associate them via segways, I think you must be drinking something a little stronger than milk.
I haven't been hopping from one subject to another. The subject I have been talking about has been what gravity really is and what it is not, thus there can be no association via segways as you wrongly asserted. As soon as we erase our false assumptions of gravity, and learn it's true nature, then we can see how there is absolute scientific proof of God which is irrefutable, even by Wilby's standards. Eatenbyagrue is starting to see where I am going with all of this. He's starting to connect the dots (but he's been shackled, bamboozled and hoodwinked by this system of things, so he's fighting against it). However, you have completely missed the boat. I've been slowly grinding away at this, but you guys are totally closed minded and so dearly hold onto the incomplete theories of the scientific community which hasn't been fully substantiated.
Gravock
I'm taking a break. I have a headache from looking at the screen.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 09:25:33 PM
snip...
However, you have completely missed the boat. I've been slowly grinding away at this, but you guys are totally closed minded and so dearly hold onto the incomplete theories of the scientific community which hasn't been fully substantiated.
Gravock
I don't hold on dearly to any theory, least of all unsubstantiated ones like yours.
And yes, you do present segways at every opportunity.
The statement you made below is a typical example.
"As soon as we erase our false assumptions of gravity, and learn it's true nature, then we can see how there is absolute scientific proof of God which is irrefutable, even by Wilby's standards."
Learning the truth about gravity isn't an automatic proof of your biblical god's existence.
Your statement above is one of many segways you have proffered.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 13, 2012, 04:44:01 PM
How is observing nature any different than observing an experiment which you or I may devise? The scientific experiment you refer to, which substantiates my claim, is being provided by observing nature. Do you really think it's necessary for mankind to devise an experiment which mimics nature, a requirement before it can be considered scientific evidence? To wrongly imply or assert it is necessary, as you have done, is asinine!
Gravock
until you can measure it, arguing about something can be many things... but science is not one of them.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 13, 2012, 08:52:50 PM
What is so confusing? The oxygen end of the H2O molecule has a certain charge, and the H2 end has the opposite charge. This is what holds water molecules together, and a sphere is the most logical shape for a small mass of water.
Here is my source, a university site: http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/basics/main/chmtxt.htm (http://imnh.isu.edu/digitalatlas/hydr/basics/main/chmtxt.htm)
You have not answered my request for a citation of sources for your theory. What experiments have been performed that confirm your theory? There have been plenty that confirm mine.
It's not just the most logical shape for a small mass of water. The planets, satellites, suns, etc., all take a spherical form. It should be obvious to you that a centripetal pressure is pushing on these objects from all directions causing them to take a spherical shape. Then we have a spherical diffusion flame experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZTl7oi05dQ) performed at NASA's Glenn Microgravity Drop Facility. What's holding the flame together in a spherical form before it burns out? No water molecules here, so you can throw your university reference source out the window. In case you haven't noticed, I have been giving you experiments and showing you scientific observations from nature.
Gravock
Which of the following do you disagree with:
1.) A moving charge induces a magnetic field.
2.) A changing magnetic field induces a charge.
3.) Pressure: As a body cannot be subject to pressure in all directions, the Earth always shielding it from this pressure on one side, the body feels a difference in the forces acting upon it and falls to the surface of the Earth.
4.) Magnetism: The attraction that the vertical component of magnetism exerts on a body is, with small variations, the same as that on any other body. Thus it is that the speed of fall in a vacuum is constant. However, this attraction is not due to mass, it is caused by the magnetism with which the whole body is endowed.
5.) Temperature: You can prove that a magnet loses its properties on being heated. As matter is made up of stationary waves, heat has a powerful influence on them. By increasing the frequency of these waves they begin to give off light. Smoke from a cigar is heavier than the surrounding air, yet it rises as the result of warmth. That is to say the difference in density is compensated for by the temperature of the smoke.
6:) Density. We can see that a balloon full of hydrogen gas rises, according to the volume of the gas. That is to say, bodies of lesser density always tend to rise, in the same way that water and oil separate, due to density. Gravity does not prevent bodies of lesser density from rising. Whereas in air, which is of low density, heavy objects fall rapidly. In water, more dense than air, they fall more slowly. Moreover, it is well known that heat reduces the density of a body. We note that heat is a factor which affects gravity, not because it is itself an agent causing the phenomena of gravity, but because it influences magnetism and density.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 14, 2012, 01:28:29 AM
It's not just the most logical shape for a small mass of water. The planets, satellites, suns, etc., all take a spherical form. It should be obvious to you that a centripetal pressure is pushing on these objects from all directions causing them to take a spherical shape.
Why should it be so obvious to any of us here?, when it was not obvious to the greatest minds of the 20th century, and is still not obvious to the great minds of this century.
Quote
Then we have a spherical diffusion flame experiment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZTl7oi05dQ) performed at NASA's Glenn Microgravity Drop Facility. What's holding the flame together in a spherical form before it burns out? No water molecules here, so you can throw your university reference source out the window. In case you haven't noticed, I have been giving you experiments and showing you scientific observations from nature.
Would this be the same NASA that you don't give any credence to?, because they lie, misinform, and are part of a world wide conspiracy to suppress the truth (according to you in previous posts).
Quote from: hoptoad on November 14, 2012, 02:02:39 AM
Why should it be so obvious to any of us here?, when it was not obvious to the greatest minds of the 20th century, and is still not obvious to the great minds of this century.
Would this be the same NASA that you don't give any credence to?, because they lie, misinform, and are part of a world wide conspiracy to suppress the truth (according to you in previous posts).
Maybe it's time to take the blind folds off and do a little thinking on your own so you can see what is obvious.
Yes, this is the same NASA I don't give much credence to along with a lot of other people who think they faked the moon landing. If you have any information to where they have lied or misinformed us in regards to the experiments I have referenced, then please bring it to our attention.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 14, 2012, 02:20:23 AM
Maybe it's time to take the blind folds off and do a little thinking on your own so you can see what is obvious.
Yes, this is the same NASA I don't give much credence to along with a lot of other people who think they faked the moon landing. If you have any information to where they have lied or misinformed us in regards to the experiments I have referenced, then please bring it to our attention.
Gravock
Well if its so obvious to you, explain it all on paper, submit your papers to the international science symposium and wait for the congratulatory slap on the back.
In the meantime I'll continue to accept theories which so far have been backed up by experimental evidence, and to ignore theories which experimental evidence has falsified.
Without verifiable data from real experiments, conclusions from vacuous thought experiments will continue to be mere opinion.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 14, 2012, 02:34:18 AM
Well if its so obvious to you, explain it all on paper, submit your papers to the international science symposium and wait for the congratulatory slap on the back.
In the meantime I'll continue to accedpt theories which so far have been backed up by experimental evidence, and to ignore theories which experimental evidence has falsified.
Without verifiable data from real experiments, conclusions from vacuous thought experiments will continue to be mere opinion.
What experimental evidence has falsified what I have said in regards to gravity? What vacuous thought experiments are you referring to? And, why would I submit papers to the international science symposium when they have taken God out of the equation?
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 12, 2012, 04:06:45 AM
I am fully aware of messenger. This doesn't mean much to me, because NASA is a cover up for the real space program. I'll give you an example. A group of astronomers have reported the discovery of a new planet possibly inhabitable close to the solar system (40 light years) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3mVTWmlcjM&feature=related). A group of astronomers can make this discovery with small telescopes at 40 light years away, but NASA can't confirm a massive body on the edge of our solar system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJXVlc-XMso&feature=related) which is 4 times the size of Jupiter? LOL. NASA's WISE could confirm Tyche, but then they conveniently claim they had to shut down WISE. How can it be a hypothetical when they know it's 4 times the size of Jupiter and is made of hydrogen and helium along with where it's located? This doesn't sound hypothetical to me. Besides, NASA has known about Tyche since 1983 and it was on major US news then, but in 1984 NASA tried to cover it up. Here's a video explaining our Binary Solar System (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g80mghpxPU). Everybody knows they airbrush stuff out of photos. They're only going to tell you what they want you to know, regardless if it's true or not. Then, the general public believes their B.S.! Of course, this is how they continue to receive funding for the real space program.
Gravock
I didn't say or imply that NASA were liars, you said they were liars.
Which makes you a liar. Can you read your own words.?
Quote from: hoptoad on November 14, 2012, 02:47:09 AM
I didn't say or imply that NASA were liars, you said they were liars. Which makes you a liar
This isn't experimental scientific evidence which falsifies what I have said in regards to gravity (can you say segway?). I'm a liar because somebody else or an organization hides or covers things up? I can't seem to wrap my mind around this. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 14, 2012, 02:54:27 AM
This isn't experimental scientific evidence which falsifies what I have said in regards to gravity (can you say segway?). I'm a liar because somebody else or an organization is a liar or cover up things? I can't seem to wrap my mind around this. LOL
Gravock
You are a liar. L.I.A.R. Is that spelled out good enough for you? Your semantics won't change that. Wrap your mind around that.
P.S. If you really can't see that
you lied about me calling NASA liars, when it was you who called NASA liars, then you probably should have some physcological counselling. Why?, because a person who lies and cannot acknowledge their own lies are pathological liars.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 14, 2012, 03:01:15 AM
You are a liar. L.I.A.R. Is that spelled out good enough for you? Your semantics won't change that. Wrap your mind around that.
You should stop lying to yourself about the existence of God. Wrap your lying mind around that!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 14, 2012, 03:11:18 AM
You should stop lying to yourself about the existence of God.
Gravock
You should just stop lying
Quote from: hoptoad on November 14, 2012, 03:01:15 AM
P.S. If you really can't see that you lied about me calling NASA liars, when it was you who called NASA liars, then you probably should have some physcological counselling. Why?, because a person who lies and cannot acknowledge their own lies are pathological liars.
Psychological Projection: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) Blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another person or object.
Gravock
Quote from: hoptoad on November 14, 2012, 03:01:15 AM
You are a liar. L.I.A.R. Is that spelled out good enough for you? Your semantics won't change that. Wrap your mind around that.
P.S. If you really can't see that you lied about me calling NASA liars, when it was you who called NASA liars, then you probably should have some physcological counselling. Why?, because a person who lies and cannot acknowledge their own lies are pathological liars.
Where did I ever say you called NASA liars? I never made this statement which you are referring to.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 14, 2012, 03:22:04 AM
Psychological Projection: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection) Blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and by redirecting libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another person or object.
Gravock
Take responsibility for your own lies, and I'll take responsibility for mine.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 14, 2012, 03:33:44 AM
Take responsibility for your own lies, and I'll take responsibility for mine.
How did I lie about implying or saying "you called NASA liars", when I never made that statement, implied or directly?
Gravock
the bulging of the earth's crust (by about a foot) caused by the PULL of the moon's gravity totally invalidates gravock the godbot's asinine hypothesis...
he knows this... and this is why he refuses to move forward with his asinine hypothesis and perform ANY experiment to validate his asinine, fantastical claim. this is PRECISELY why he will respond to this post with more of his asinine word salad instead of presenting SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 14, 2012, 08:35:44 AM
the bulging of the earth's crust (by about a foot) caused by the PULL of the moon's gravity totally invalidates gravock the godbot's asinine hypothesis...
he knows this... and this is why he refuses to move forward with his asinine hypothesis and perform ANY experiment to validate his asinine, fantastical claim. this is PRECISELY why he will respond to this post with more of his asinine word salad instead of presenting SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
::)
An equatorial bulge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatorial_bulge) is a difference between the equatorial and polar diameters of a planet, due to the centrifugal force of its rotation. Then the slight difference of 0.0178 m/s² between the gravitational acceleration at the poles and the gravitational acceleration at the equator due to the equatorial bulge is responsible for the 20 - 40 cm bulge in the earth's crust (cause and effect). Again, you wrongly asserted something and psychologically projected your asininity onto me.
Gravock
The moon doesn't have much power in holding things near to it's surface. Yet, you guys disregard this and impute miraculous powers to the moon over large distances (238,900 miles away), such as moving large bodies of water and causing the earth's crust to bulge. Wake up!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 14, 2012, 12:05:43 PM
An equatorial bulge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equatorial_bulge) is a difference between the equatorial and polar diameters of a planet, due to the centrifugal force of its rotation. Then the slight difference of 0.0178 m/s² between the gravitational acceleration at the poles and the gravitational acceleration at the equator due to the equatorial bulge is responsible for the 20 - 40 cm bulge in the earth's crust (cause and effect). Again, you wrongly asserted something and psychologically projected your asininity onto me.
Gravock
He was not talking about the equatorial bulge, which is indeed caused by centrifugal force. He was talking about what is called the Earth Tide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_tide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_tide)
It exists and is measurable, so you telling us to wake up is not going to fly.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 14, 2012, 03:34:21 PM
He was not talking about the equatorial bulge, which is indeed caused by centrifugal force. He was talking about what is called the Earth Tide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_tide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_tide)
It exists and is measurable, so you telling us to wake up is not going to fly.
No, he was talking about the gravitational pull of the moon creating a bulge in the earth's crust. Because of a planet's rotation around its own axis, the gravitational strength is less at the equator than at the poles due to the equatorial bulge caused by the centrifugal force. The difference between the gravitational strength at the poles and the gravitational strength at the equator is because objects located on the equator are about 21 kilometers further away from the center of mass of the Earth than at the poles, which corresponds to a weaker gravitational strength. This difference in the gravitational strength of the earth having a variation in it's magnitude between the poles and the equator applies a persistence and constant force across the entire planet over a long period of time to cause a 20 - 40 cm bulge in the earth's crust. The moon always in motion relative to the earth could never apply a persistent and constant force over the entire planet of a varying magnitude between the poles and the equator over a long period of time to cause the earth's crust to bulge.
Gravock
Guys, no matter what errors gravock may have in his arguments, right has to be right.
Even if I have been quite engaged in criticising some of gravocks theories, since he has a tendency to present them as facts and not theories, when it comes to the discussion about gravity versus field pressure I feel obliged to stress that there is unfortunately actually no known way to tell which is the correct theory.
Field pressure theory actually describes the exact inverted dynamics of gravity, thus it creates the exact same results as gravity, for example making the Earth Tide exist as a direct resultant of Field Pressure. Just change the direction of the accelerative gravitational vectors and you've got Field Pressure as the active dynamics behind the gravitational phenomenon. There is really nothing erroneous about that.
The only reason science today favour gravity as a pulling force is our scientific tradition to regard the simplest and most obvious alternative as the correct one until proven wrong.
The idea of a Field Pressure resulting from the Big Bang is still too far fetched for main stream science, but we have to keep in mind that it is very easy to misread an effect for a cause, if the cause is not directly observable. And gravity along with electromagnetism and the propagation of light are still far from understood phenomenons.
So gravock, you may be subject to the paradigm psychosis presently spreading over the Internet by absorbing a bit too much of the conspiracy tell tales and dooms day predictions, but in this specific case your inverted gravity idea is just as valid as the accepted one, even if a bit far fetched for the ordinary mind.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 14, 2012, 06:00:46 PM
Guys, no matter what errors gravock may have in his arguments, right has to be right.
Even if I have been quite engaged in criticising some of gravocks theories, since he has a tendency to present them as facts and not theories, when it comes to the discussion about gravity versus field pressure I feel obliged to stress that there is unfortunately actually no known way to tell which is the correct theory.
Field pressure theory actually describes the exact inverted dynamics of gravity, thus it creates the exact same results as gravity, for example making the Earth Tide exist as a direct resultant of Field Pressure. Just change the direction of the accelerative gravitational vectors and you've got Field Pressure as the active dynamics behind the gravitational phenomenon. There is really nothing erroneous about that.
There is some truth to what you say. In the end, as Krauss said, in science, knowing the answer means nothing. Testing your knowledge means everything. Science is empirical, after all.
Quote from: Gwandau on November 14, 2012, 06:00:46 PM
Guys, no matter what errors gravock may have in his arguments, right has to be right.
Even if I have been quite engaged in criticising some of gravocks theories, since he has a tendency to present them as facts and not theories, when it comes to the discussion about gravity versus field pressure I feel obliged to stress that there is unfortunately actually no known way to tell which is the correct theory.
Field pressure theory actually describes the exact inverted dynamics of gravity, thus it creates the exact same results as gravity, for example making the Earth Tide exist as a direct resultant of Field Pressure. Just change the direction of the accelerative gravitational vectors and you've got Field Pressure as the active dynamics behind the gravitational phenomenon. There is really nothing erroneous about that.
The only reason science today favour gravity as a pulling force is our scientific tradition to regard the simplest and most obvious alternative as the correct one until proven wrong.
The idea of a Field Pressure resulting from the Big Bang is still too far fetched for main stream science, but we have to keep in mind that it is very easy to misread an effect for a cause, if the cause is not directly observable. And gravity along with electromagnetism and the propagation of light are still far from understood phenomenons.
So gravock, you may be subject to the paradigm psychosis presently spreading over the Internet by absorbing a bit too much of the conspiracy tell tales and dooms day predictions, but in this specific case your inverted gravity idea is just as valid as the accepted one, even if a bit far fetched for the ordinary mind.
Gwandau
Well said and Thanks!
@All,
I believe it's possible to differentiate between the true reality of things from the inverse of true reality. There is no scientific evidence in and of itself which can prove one from the other. However, we can apply common sense, logical reasoning, deductive reasoning, process of elimination, eliminating contradictions, asking the right questions, etc, to the scientific evidence allowing us to differentiate between the true and inverse of true reality. The true reality of things have God in the equation. The inverse of true reality takes God out of the equation. It doesn't matter if this was done intentionally or not, and by who, because it is what it is. If you're serious and honest with yourself, then you'll stop saying that's not scientific evidence before you apply common sense to both the possibilities of the inverse and non-inverse. Below is a good example.
How can moving light from the sun reflect off the curved surface of the moon at all kinds of improper angles back into our eyes where we can see the entire circumference of the moon? This isn't possible, because there is only one proper angle which light reflects off a curved surface (scientific evidence tells us this), such as the moon, thus the moon would only appear to us as a small dot. Our natural assumption is that light itself is moving. We all know, automatically assuming something is a bad idea. If we must assume something, then we should assume all possibilities and apply common sense to them all, before coming to a final conclusion. If we're obtaining the wrong results, then maybe it's because our assumption of light moving is wrong. Now, If we assume light is stationary, and we're moving past stationary light via expansion acceleration (scientific evidence supports this), then it is possible for us to see the entire circumference of the moon, which is in-line with what we see and observe. Now, we can take this true reality of things and apply it to other scientific evidence and observations, and so on. By doing this everything will fall into place. This isn't an easy road, because some of this stuff is truly mind boggling and will push the mind to it's very limits and beyond. We can correctly replace gravity with the force of "Light". Then we can unite "Light" with the other so-called fundamental forces of nature. Then we can unite "Light" with an oscillating charge superimposed on an infinite point (God).
I don't have the time, the energy, the patience, etc. to prove anything of this to you. Only you can do this. I truly hope you find your piece of evidence which proves the existence of God to yourself. Please don't bash this post. I won't take the time or the energy to defend it like I have previously done in my other posts. If what I say resonates with someone, then I have been successful. If we can't agree, then can we at least agree to disagree?
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on November 14, 2012, 06:00:46 PM
Field pressure theory actually describes the exact inverted dynamics of gravity, thus it creates the exact same results as gravity, for example making the Earth Tide exist as a direct resultant of Field Pressure. Just change the direction of the accelerative gravitational vectors and you've got Field Pressure as the active dynamics behind the gravitational phenomenon. There is really nothing erroneous about that.
yeah... but the problem with the field pressure idea is obvious when the positions of the gravitational bodies (moon and sun) are taken into consideration. having a bulge where according to the field pressure hypothesis there shouldn't be one due to 'radiation pressure of light from the sun and moon' is slightly problematic... and erroneous ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 15, 2012, 01:48:31 AM
yeah... but the problem with the field pressure idea is obvious when the positions of the gravitational bodies (moon and sun) are taken into consideration. having a bulge where according to the field pressure hypothesis there shouldn't be one due to 'radiation pressure of light from the sun and moon' is slightly problematic... and erroneous ;)
It's not problematic when you consider there is radiation pressure from the sun reflecting off the moon to the earth (which has to do with the positions of the moon, earth, and sun), radiation pressure directly from the sun (the different angles of the sun relative to the earth also plays a factor), and the centripetal radiation pressure within the universe, which the positions of the moon and sun has an influence on.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 02:02:56 AM
It's not problematic when you consider there is radiation pressure from the sun reflecting off the moon to the earth (which has to do with the positions of the moon, earth, and sun), radiation pressure directly from the sun (the different angles of the sun relative to the earth also plays a factor), and the centripetal radiation pressure within the universe, which the positions of the moon and sun has an influence on.
Gravock
wrong. it's completely problematic when you have a bulge where there shouldn't be one... and where there should be a bulge according to your asinine hypothesis... there isn't. ::) obviously that's no problem for a godtard like you... but for the rest of the scientific world, it is.
as i told you earlier, until you can measure it, arguing about something can be many things... but science is not one of them.
and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you haven't a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof to present for the existence of your imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend... ::)
Here's something I find very interesting during an experiment with surface tension of water in micro-gravity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mj41tCNukw). Don Pettit suggests the reversals in motion during the time-lapse footage, starting at 3min.30sec., may be due to air currents. I see very minute reversals during the real footage also in the form of small jerky motions. I don't think it would rotate as long as it did if there were air currents causing reversals. The wire loop and thin film of water would act as a sailboat if there were air currents and there should be visible indications of it moving around, but it remains perfectly still throughout the entire video, except for when he first stirs it and between the switching from real to time-lapse footage. Also there appears to be other fluctuations in speed of the tracer particles. This is speculation on my part, but the reversals and changes in speed of the tracer particles could be due to small fluctuations in the centripetal pressure within the universe.
Air currents?
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 15, 2012, 03:02:47 AM
wrong. it's completely problematic when you have a bulge where there shouldn't be one... and where there should be a bulge according to your asinine hypothesis... there isn't. ::) obviously that's no problem for a godtard like you... but for the rest of the scientific world, it is.
as i told you earlier, until you can measure it, arguing about something can be many things... but science is not one of them.
and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you haven't a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof to present for the existence of your imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend... ::)
I'm no longer debating or defending my position. It's a waste of time and effort.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 03:30:42 AM
I'm no longer debating or defending my position. It's a waste of time and effort.
Gravock
good. your declarations of fact based upon nothing but personal fiat were getting quite boring.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 15, 2012, 03:34:59 AM
good. your declarations of fact based upon nothing but personal fiat were getting quite boring.
As were yours!
Gravock
1.) The Acceleration of earth's Gravity x earth orbit Time (exact lunar year) = the Velocity of Light.
(9.80175174 m/s2 x 30,585,600 s = 299,792,458 m/s)
2.) The Acceleration of earth in orbit x earth orbit Diameter = the Velocity factor of Light.
(.00100338656876 x 3298,760,616,894.579 = 299,792,458)
3.) When the orbit Circumference of earth (AZ
2) is calculated at 938,646,991,071.036 meters and its orbit Acceleration as .00100338656876 m/s
2, earth's orbit Velocity then reveals itself as exactly 30,689.1802374659 m/s.
Hence the following list of extraordinary mathematics unfolds;
a) Orbit velocity
2 / Pi = Speed of Light.
b) Planet Density
2 x 4 Pi = Speed of Light.
c) 9,768.669468531722 x Pi = Speed of Light.
d) Gravity Acceleration x Orbit Time = Speed of Light.
e) Orbit Acceleration x Orbit Diameter = Speed of Light.
f) Orbit Velocity x 2 x planet Density = Speed of Light.
g) Orbit Velocity x 9,768.66946853172 = Speed of Light.
h) Surface Area of orbit sphere x planet Density / orbit Radius = Speed of Light.
i) Orbit Diameter / 9,768.66946853172 = Orbit Time.
j) Orbit Distance / 9,768.66946853172 / Pi = Orbit Time.
k) Gravity Acceleration / 9,768.66946853172 = Orbit Acceleration.
l) 9,768.66946853172 x Pi = Orbit Velocity.
m) Gravity Acceleration x (Orbit Time / 9,768.66946853172) = Orbit Velocity.
( 9,768.66946853172 = 2 x earth Density = 4,884.33473426586 kg/m3 = 4.884 g/cm3 )
Gravock
The mathematics also holds true for the planet Mars.
Mass = 6.41693 x 10
23 kg
Volume = 1.6708399703069 x 10
20 m
3Density = 3,840.54135287503
Orbit Radius = 227,936,640,000 m
Orbit Diameter = 455,873,280,000
Orbit Acceleration (A) = .00040658431227
Orbit Time (Z) = 59,350,132.9780459
Orbit Velocity (AZ) = 24,130.8329999134
Orbit Circumference (AZ
2) = 1,432,168,147,415.88
Gravity Acceleration = 3.123
2 x planet Density = 7,681.08270572251
Centripetal Acceleration = .00255464457697
When the orbit Circumference of Mars (AZ
2) is calculated at 1,432,168,147,415.88 m and its orbit Acceleration as .00040658431227 m/s
2 its orbit Velocity then becomes exactly 24,130.8329999134 m/s.
Hence the following list of extraordinary mathematics unfolds;
Mars' orbital Acceleration (.00040658431227) multiplied by mars orbit Diameter (455,873,280,000) = 185,350,924.030313. This number divided into the speed of light is equal to; Earth Density
2 / Mars Density
2b) Orbit velocity
2 / Pi = 185,350,924.030313.
c) 7,681.082705722512 x Pi = 185,350,924.030313.
d) Gravity Acceleration x Orbit Time = 185,350,924.030313.
e) Orbit velocity x 7,681.08270572251 = 185,350,924.030313.
f) Orbit Diameter / 7,681.08270572251 = Orbit Time.
g) Orbit Distance / 7,681.08270572251 / Pi = Orbit Time.
h) Gravity Acceleration / 7,681.08270572251 = Orbit Acceleration.
i) 7,681.08270572251 x Pi = Orbit Velocity.
j) Gravity Acceleration x (Orbit Time / 7,681.08270572251) = Orbit Velocity.
( 7,681.08270572251 = 2 x Mars Density = 3,840.54135286125 kg/m3)3.840 g/cm3
Gravock
As you may have noticed, the speed of light calculated on the earth is different than the speed of light calculated on mars. You can't deny the mathematics, so lets assume for a moment it is correct and try to confirm it. According to Ioannis Xydous publication, titled, Secret of the Electron-Positron pair (http://www.ioannisxydous.gr/SEPPv5.pdf), "there's a reduction in the E/M wave's velocity when entering an Electrostatic Field". Assuming for a moment the true velocity of light is 0 and we're moving past stationary light via expansion acceleration, then we can re-word the statement made by Xydous to better reflect the true reality of things and say, "there is a reduction in expansion acceleration when entering into a pressure of electrical mass from stationary light.
This Pressure decreases according to the inverse-square law. This is the reason that gravity also decreases inversely as we move out into space. In other words, an object's expansion acceleration rate decreases according to the inverse-square law as we move away from the sun. Remember, expansion acceleration and orbit are One! To support the work of Xydous, we can turn to Frank Znidarsic who says, "the speed of light decreases to match the speed of mechanical waves in the electronic structure of the atom".
299,792,458c / 185,350,924c = The Golden Ratio of 1.618. How is there a golden ratio in the expansion acceleration rate between mars and earth? This shows an Intelligent Design of a Creator! God is the ultimate mathematician. We see this everywhere.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 07:03:43 AM
This shows an Intelligent Design of a Creator! God is the ultimate mathematician. We see this everywhere.
if by 'god' you mean odin allfather... then yes, you are correct.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 07:03:43 AM
299,792,458c / 185,350,924c = The Golden Ratio of 1.618. How is there a golden ratio in the expansion acceleration rate between mars and earth? This shows an Intelligent Design of a Creator! God is the ultimate mathematician. We see this everywhere.
Gravock
I think you need more exposure to opposite points of view. You can start with Krauss's Universe from Nothing:
http://youtu.be/EjaGktVQdNg (http://youtu.be/EjaGktVQdNg)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 03:25:22 AM
Here's something I find very interesting during an experiment with surface tension of water in micro-gravity (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mj41tCNukw). Don Pettit suggests .......
Can you tell me? When Don Pettit suggests, you look very happy; when I suggest, you look not so happy: http://www.overunity.com/12716/probality-of-god/msg343769/#msg343769
The Centripetal Force of the earth moving around the sun is equal to the mass of the earth multiplied by earth's centripetal Acceleration. The centripetal acceleration of the earth is Velocity2 divided by orbit Radius = .00630446374625. Therefore earth's centripetal Force is = 3.7651509559105 x 1022. Thus, when you take the Pressure of the electrical-mass coming off the sun which is the pressure within the earth's energy sphere (.40276241457847) and multiply it by 1/3 of the surface area of the energy sphere (the amount of force that pushes the earth outwards), you get the exact same force that outer space is pushing back against the earth, which is the Centripetal Force of the earth = 3.7651509559105 x 1022
Gravock
Below are the 7 equations which determine planet Density;
1. Density = orbit Radius x orbit Time / Surface Area of orbit Sphere
2. Density = orbit Radius x orbit Velocity / orbit Circumference
3. Density = Gravitational Acceleration / 2 x orbit Acceleration
4. Density = Velocity of Light / 2 x orbit Velocity
5. Density = √ Velocity of Light / 4 Pi
6. Density = orbit Velocity / 2 Pi
7. Density = orbit Radius / orbit Time
Gravity is absolutely "Pushing" us down onto the earth. We upon the earth are exactly parallel to a Galilean Thermometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_thermometer). The force that we feel pushing us downwards is simply the result of the density of our bodies compared to the density of the ocean of electrical-mass that is surrounding the earth. A simple difference in densities is what man defines as - Gravity.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 14, 2012, 08:10:12 PM
snip...
How can moving light from the sun reflect off the curved surface of the moon at all kinds of improper angles back into our eyes where we can see the entire circumference of the moon? This isn't possible, because there is only one proper angle which light reflects off a curved surface (scientific evidence tells us this), such as the moon, thus the moon would only appear to us as a small dot.
If the moon were a perfectly smooth reflective surface, you might see only a small portion of the moon, but the moon has an uneven surface, composed of rock and dust which also has an uneven surface. Light is refracted and reflected at all angles, right across the whole surface of the moon that is exposed to that light.
Quote
snip...
Now, If we assume light is stationary, and we're moving past stationary light via expansion acceleration (scientific evidence supports this), then it is possible for us to see the entire circumference of the moon, which is in-line with what we see and observe.
snip...
Now get two people standing 20 metres apart from each other, one with a torch pointing it at a ball that the other is holding.
If light were stationery, then how would the person shining the light at the ball, see the reflected light from that ball, when both persons are stationery with respect to each other. ? How would the person holding the ball see the light from the torch? ??? ??
The "gravity shadow" - why wouldn't there be a gravity shadow on the back side of the earth as an object crosses behind the earth from the sun side ? It is not observed.
Gravock
Quote from: hoptoad on November 15, 2012, 04:59:57 PM
If light were stationery, then how would the person shining the light at the ball, see the reflected light from that ball, when both persons are stationery with respect to each other. ? How would the person holding the ball see the light from the torch? ??? ??
Through expansion acceleration. The objects expand into the stationary light, and the space between them also undergoes the same expansion acceleration, so we perceive no changes in our size and no changes in distance.
Video of Electrical-Mass being multiplied by Acceleration and Distance to become a greater electric charge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szo63nfkMoE).
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 08:01:26 PM
Through expansion acceleration. The objects expand into the stationary light, and the space between them also undergoes the same expansion acceleration, so we perceive no changes in our size and no changes in distance.
Gravock
I haven't laughed so much in years
Quote from: hoptoad on November 15, 2012, 08:09:22 PM
I haven't laughed so much in years
How is the idea of expansion acceleration of space from mainstream science anymore plausible or less laughable than the idea of matter also undergoing expansion acceleration? You accept one, and laugh at the other, yet you fail to realize matter is only deformed space. Foolishness!
Video of Electrical-Mass being multiplied by Acceleration and Distance to become a greater electric charge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szo63nfkMoE).
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 08:15:50 PM
How is the idea of expansion acceleration of space from mainstream science anymore plausible or less laughable than the idea of matter also undergoing expansion acceleration? You accept one, and laugh at the other. Foolishness!
Video of Electrical-Mass being multiplied by Acceleration and Distance to become a greater electric charge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szo63nfkMoE).
The expansion acceleration of space is not the laughable bit. The idea of stationery light is what's laughable, (foolishness) particularly in the case of the scenario that I outlined where the two people are stationery with respect to each other.
Thanks for the belly laugh!
Quote from: hoptoad on November 15, 2012, 08:21:13 PM
The expansion acceleration of space is not the laughable bit. The idea of stationery light is what's laughable, (foolishness) particularly in the case of the scenario that I outlined where the two people are stationery with respect to each other.
Thanks for the belly laugh!
It's laughable for you to think light has an instantaneous velocity from 0 to 299,792,458 m/s, and doing so without having to first undergo a period of acceleration. That's a belly laugh!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 08:15:50 PM
How is the idea of expansion acceleration of space from mainstream science anymore plausible or less laughable than the idea of matter also undergoing expansion acceleration? You accept one, and laugh at the other, yet you fail to realize matter is only deformed space. Foolishness!
Video of Electrical-Mass being multiplied by Acceleration and Distance to become a greater electric charge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szo63nfkMoE).
Yes. Foolishness. ;)
I like what you have been explaining. I didnt know these things. And even though I cant feel it or see it, Im interested. ;)
Thats the difference with some of these guys. Some assume all else is a joke beyond 'what' they know, of which must be limited, as it seems it is not just the subject of God that they reject, there are other things too.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 08:31:31 PM
It's laughable for you to think light has an instantaneous velocity from 0 to 299,792,458 m/s, and doing so without having to first undergo a period of acceleration. That's a belly laugh!
Gravock
Its laughable you think you know what I think. If light is undergoing acceleration it cannot be stationery.
Any
thing undergoing acceleration cannot be stationery.
One way to figure out if the acceleration of light exists from its starting point, would be to measure the time of travel at some large distance. Then precisely calculate the 'average' speed. Then remeasure time to redetermine the the average speed at a short distance.
If there is acceleration involved, there will be a difference in the 2 determined average speeds, due to the fact that the time of acceleration would most likely be finite, thus taking up the same amount of time for acceleration for the short and long distance tests. So the greater distance would have a higher average speed because the longer distance test, the light would spend more time at the highest speed compared to the short distance tests.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: hoptoad on November 15, 2012, 09:00:00 PM
Its laughable you think you know what I think. If light is undergoing acceleration it cannot be stationery.
Anything undergoing acceleration cannot be stationery.
I said space and matter are undergoing expansion acceleration. Where did I ever say light is also undergoing expansion acceleration? I never did. You need to stop saying I said things which I never said. This is becoming a pattern from you. It is stationary because it is not undergoing expansion acceleration. Is your thinking that swallow?
And, the only thing that is laughable about light having a 0 velocity, is you're not able to perceive this with your very limited comprehension.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 09:14:54 PM
I said space and matter are undergoing expansion acceleration. Where did I ever say light is also undergoing expansion acceleration? I never did. You need to stop saying I said things which I never said. This is becoming a pattern from you. It is stationary because it is not undergoing expansion acceleration. Is your thinking that swallow?
And, the only thing that is laughable about light having a 0 velocity, is you're not able to perceive this with your very limited comprehension.
Gravock
You didn't say light was undergoing expansion acceleration and I never said you did! You said light was stationery. You're entitled to say and think what you like and I'm entitled to disagree and think your idea is ludicrous. Once again thanks for the belly laugh.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 15, 2012, 04:59:57 PM
If the moon were a perfectly smooth reflective surface, you might see only a small portion of the moon, but the moon has an uneven surface, composed of rock and dust which also has an uneven surface. Light is refracted and reflected at all angles, right across the whole surface of the moon that is exposed to that light.
According to your logic, then the moon wouldn't appear as a single dot, but it would appear as a bunch of small random dots scattered all over the place and look like a cluster of stars far away. Also, light is not reflected off a curved surface at all kinds of improper angles. There is only one proper angle which light reflects off a curved surface.
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 15, 2012, 08:52:01 PM
Yes. Foolishness. ;)
I like what you have been explaining. I didnt know these things. And even though I cant feel it or see it, Im interested. ;)
Thats the difference with some of these guys. Some assume all else is a joke beyond 'what' they know, of which must be limited, as it seems it is not just the subject of God that they reject, there are other things too.
Magzimus Leviticus
They reject all forms of truth. They are the author of confusion.
Gravock
Quote from: hoptoad on November 15, 2012, 09:23:15 PM
You didn't say light was undergoing expansion acceleration and I never said you did! You said light was stationery. You're entitled to say and think what you like and I'm entitled to disagree and think your idea is ludicrous. Once again thanks for the belly laugh.
The belly laugh is on you and not on me. I'm going to give you a hint. Light doesn't undergo expansion acceleration and it anchors itself. Matter undergoing expansion acceleration expands into this stationary Light moving it through space. Since light is anchored, then it creates a pressure or resistance against this expanding matter (it's like a boat dragging an anchor across the bottom of a lake). Light within matter is the electrical resistance in a wire. So, Light is stationary unless its pushed or moved by matter undergoing expansion acceleration. Since space is undergoing expansion acceleration, then this causes the Light to oscillate at a frequency and wavelength according to the expansion acceleration rate because the Light endeavors to remain in it's current position. This oscillation of Light causes a resistance or pressure against the expansion acceleration of space and reduces it's acceleration rate.
Gravock
100 pages and the godtards have not presented a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of their imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend... ::)
godtards are so funny...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 16, 2012, 04:05:14 AM
100 pages and the godtards have not presented a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of their imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend... ::)
godtards are so funny...
This shows and correctly represents the level and deepness of your ignorance.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 05:06:06 AM
This shows and correctly represents the level and deepness of your ignorance.
Gravock
you stupid, medacious godtard.... ::)
you have NO EXTANT EVIDENCE for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend. THIS IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FAITH... ::)
since you obviously can't be reasonable or logical... at least be honest. ::) your imaginary godfairy hates liars.
why don't you present your "evidence for god" to the scientific world? i'm sure there is a nobel prize waiting for you if in fact you aren't lying and actually have such evidence. and... presenting extant evidence for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend might give your asinine, fantastical 'stationary light' hypothesis a modicum of gravitas. as it stands neither of your asinine claims have any gravitas or authority.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 16, 2012, 05:10:14 AM
you stupid, medacious godtard.... ::)
you have NO EXTANT EVIDENCE for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend. THIS IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF FAITH... ::)
since you obviously can't be reasonable or logical... at least be honest. ::) your imaginary godfairy hates liars.
why don't you present your "evidence for god" to the scientific world? i'm sure there is a nobel prize waiting for you if in fact you aren't lying and actually have such evidence. and... presenting extant evidence for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend might give your asinine, fantastical 'stationary light' hypothesis a modicum of gravitas. as it stands neither of your asinine claims have any gravitas or authority.
Why should I present this to the scientific world when they have taken God out of the equation, and conveniently overlook Him, and without giving Him any consideration at all? Also, faith is the evidence of things not seen. This definition of faith was established in the ancient manuscripts long before it's current and inaccurate definition, so the biblical definition of faith takes precedence over any other definition you wish it may have.
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 15, 2012, 08:52:01 PM
as it seems it is not just the subject of God that they reject, there are other things too.
hey godtard...
it's not the subject of god that we reject... it's your asinine fantasy that your imaginary godfairy, the one that is so heavily and clearly plagiarized from already existing myths and religions, is the one and only 'true gawd'™.you godtards are the ones that actually reject the subject of god. you reject any other imaginary godfairy except your own.
simply put, you are a bigot.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 05:28:59 AM
Why should I present this to the scientific world when they have taken God out of the equation, and conveniently overlook Him, and without giving Him any consideration at all? Also, faith is the evidence of things not seen. This definition of faith was established in the ancient manuscripts long before it's current and inaccurate definition, so the biblical definition of faith takes precedence over any other definition you wish it may have.
Gravock
because without doing so your asinine, unsubstantiated claim remains unsubstantiated... ::)
because noone really cares what you assert without substantiation... ::)
your declaration of biblical authority over definition of faith just serves to demonstrate what an ignorant bigot you truly are. faith existed LONG before your asinine book of fairy tales was ever written by ignorant goat herders... ::) your latest asinine opinion is noted and dismissed for its stupidity.
furthermore dave... science didn't "take god out of the equation"... ::) religion CREATED god outside the boundaries of science with its asinine ad hoc rationalizations. don't blame science for the inherent stupidity of godtards... ::)
jesus effing christ dave... how ignorant and bigoted can you possibly be?
@ GravityBlock
Hilarious!
Quote from: hoptoad on November 16, 2012, 07:23:26 AM
@ GravityBlock
Hilarious!
do you think it would be as amusing to have the godtard elucidate how quanta move through a vacuum where there is no 'matter'? or would tragic be a more appropriate adjective?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 16, 2012, 08:03:27 AM
do you think it would be as amusing to have the godtard elucidate how quanta move through a vacuum where there is no 'matter'? or would tragic be a more appropriate adjective?
Amusingly tragic or perhaps tragically amusing. No doubt we'll get thoroughly educated in the process!
Again I feel obliged to intervene in this discussion, which repeatedly is deviating from proper reflection of given observations.
One reason for this is gravocks incapacity to retorically correct confront his unorthodox view points in a relative context to the accepted observations. Gravock is of course very eager to present proof of what seems fully plausible to him, but when one starts to use non accepted frame of references as arguments, he immediately start losing listeners.
However, the theory of light propagating lineary from A to B is still just an assumption based upon experiments done with a source and a detector. By turning on a lightsource at a recorded point in time we have been able to measure a response in the detector at a certain point in time, thus giving us a time measure relating to the distance between the light source and the detector.
This however does not count as proof of any light actually traveling from A to B. It is merely our sound conclusion since we lack any alternative explanation.
Could it be that mankind's experimental results and observations are accurate, but wrongly interpreted when explained?
What if light is something that does not travel from A to B?
The life long efforts invested by our brightest physicists are all based on a few untouchable fundamental concepts, being the very base for their complex models. But if the foundation of the base is at fault, the rest of the structure will falter.
Let's make an intellectual experiment and imagine the possibility that all observable
events just are mere responses to one single underlying universal energy field.
This is fully possible, since it is, as I have said before, very easy to misread an effect for a cause, if the cause is not directly observable.
For example, just imagine all known physical phenomenons being mere secondary responses to this single underlying field.
In such a scenario our experience of light would be depending upon the field value at the point of source relative to the point of detection, thus creating the illusion of light travelling from A to B.
Instead we maybe just were observing the differential field value and the time differential between these to points in the field. When the lamp is turned on, it may thus only create the illusion of reaching you from the point of departure when in fact the only thing the lamp did was creating a field differential detected by you.
You have to understand that the propagation of light is just as hard to nail as the push/pull alternative regarding gravity.
So laugh as much as you want at gravocks halting attempts to defend his viewpoint, but never forget that hitherto none of us really are in the position to tell what the dynamics behind the phenomenon of light really is.
I advice you all to keep an open mind, scientific revision is always around the corner.
Gwandau
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 16, 2012, 05:30:04 AM
simply put, you are a bigot.
Simply put, you are a fool. ;) You are the most foolish of them all. ;)
Your day will come that you will know that God 'IS'. ;)
I see you as one of those that would hold your stance even if God is standing right in front of you. That will be a bad day for you. But nothing compared to where you will be the days after. ;)
Your 'All Fodda' wont be able to help you then, as he will burn with you. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 16, 2012, 07:21:36 PM
Simply put, you are a fool. ;) You are the most foolish of them all. ;)
Your day will come that you will know that God 'IS'. ;)
I see you as one of those that would hold your stance even if God is standing right in front of you. That will be a bad day for you. But nothing compared to where you will be the days after. ;)
Your 'All Fodda' wont be able to help you then, as he will burn with you. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
But how do you know you're not praying to the wrong god and will get eternal damnation anyway, despite your faith? 1 billion Muslims say you go to Muslim hell. Surely they cannot all be wrong.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 16, 2012, 09:04:15 PM
But how do you know you're not praying to the wrong god and will get eternal damnation anyway, despite your faith? 1 billion Muslims say you go to Muslim hell. Surely they cannot all be wrong.
From what you say here, your definition of faith is that we just assume God is there. ;)
If you had gone through what I have, you would 'know' differently. And think differently. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 16, 2012, 07:21:36 PM
Simply put, you are a fool. ;) You are the most foolish of them all. ;)
Your day will come that you will know that God 'IS'. ;)
I see you as one of those that would hold your stance even if God is standing right in front of you. That will be a bad day for you. But nothing compared to where you will be the days after. ;)
Your 'All Fodda' wont be able to help you then, as he will burn with you. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
even the bible says any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself, I am not trying to piss you off, just smearing your own shit in your face, besides it belonged to you anyways. I am an atheist and I know quit a lot about your small little book. which doesn't amount to shit as far as mans discoveries.
I am not here to protect anyone's values, I am here to turn your life into a natural Disaster for which you have no power! never did either.
for betraying nature itself and all its scientific values.
Edge
I would say from the little bit of knowledge that I have aquired in this life, Mags will do much better in all manner of disasters ,than a man who builds his own belief system in his spare toilet time reading..........
But thats just my experience with faith, disasters and coping skills..
I would add however the "fool" thing {ixnay].
Thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on November 16, 2012, 10:10:35 PM
Edge
I would say from the little bit of knowledge that I have aquired in this life, Mags will do much better in all manner of disasters ,than a man who builds his own belief system in his spare toilet time reading..........
But thats just my experience with faith, disasters and coping skills..
I would add however the "fool" thing {ixnay].
Thx
Chet
any man who adds to my defense is welcomed and any man against me is a believer in superstition which can not exist except in ones own mind, magic doesn't exist m.o.f.o. if you believe in this crap then you believe in crap period. only truth is what i believe-in.
will
I was expecting more than just the morons who'd replied. if you believe in god you fucking keep it to your self, you understand?? don't push your poision upon others including I. we don't wanna hear about it nor does it matter.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 16, 2012, 09:04:15 PM
But how do you know you're not praying to the wrong god and will get eternal damnation anyway, despite your faith? 1 billion Muslims say you go to Muslim hell. Surely they cannot all be wrong.
Both Muslims and Christians worship and pray to the same God, the God of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc. Both the Quran and the bible is based around the Torah, the first five books found in the bible is also found in the Quran. Muslims believe the Quran is an extension to the bible. So, contrary to your false knowledge and beliefs, both Islam and Christianity pray to the same God and have the same faith. This article, titled, "A True Prophet to Our Generation? (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb920219.htm)", shows how both are correct and nobody is wrong. The adversary has sent a strong delusion to mankind based on a lie and divided the one true faith. Both Islam and Christianity is of the same true faith, but the followers of each, Muslims and Christians are divided. The adversary causes division. A house which is divided can not stand. However, this division is only an illusion, and both share the same True faith.
Gravock
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 09:51:40 PM
even the bible says any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself, I am not trying to piss you off, just smearing your own shit in your face, besides it belonged to you anyways. I am an atheist and I know quit a lot about your small little book. which doesn't amount to shit as far as mans discoveries.
I am not here to protect anyone's values, I am here to turn your life into a natural Disaster for which you have no power! never did either.
for betraying nature itself and all its scientific values.
The bible says, only a fool says there is no God (Creator). Magluvin is only repeating what is found in the bible to those who says there is no God. Magluvin isn't calling them a fool, but the Word of God is calling them a fool.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 10:37:23 PM
Both Muslims and Christians worship the same God, the God of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc. Both the Quran and the bible is based around the Torah, the first five books found in the bible is also found in the Quran. Muslims believe the Quran is an extension to the bible. So, contrary to your false knowledge and beliefs, both Islam and Christianity pray to the same God and have the same faith. This article, titled, "A True Prophet to Our Generation? (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bb920219.htm)", shows how both are correct and nobody is wrong. The adversary has sent a strong delusion to mankind based on a lie and divided the one true faith. Both Islam and Christianity is of the same true faith, but the followers of each, Muslims and Christians are divided. The adversary causes division. A house which is divided can not stand. However, this division is only an illusion, and both share the same faith.
Gravock
dear mr. gravock, your phrophocies will be nothing and are nothing and will become history as a false ledger. your words mean nothing in the real world except paranoia. 2012 Friday
Dec 21st will be only a day for the paranoid. only the paranoid won't survive.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 10:43:34 PM
The bible says, only a fool says there is no God (Creator). Magluvin is only repeating what is found in the bible to those who says there is no God.
Gravock
I never said there was no god, I simply stated I believe in no god. how's that for a reach around.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 10:51:44 PM
I never said there was no god, I simply stated I believe in no god. how's that for a reach around.
The reach around is your trying to split hairs.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 10:56:48 PM
The reach around is your trying to split hairs.
Gravock
seems I split your hair quite evenly. please continue, I am not done with you until you leave us alone. stop sharing your bible crap in a scientific forum.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 09:51:40 PM
even the bible says any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself, I am not trying to piss you off, just smearing your own shit in your face, besides it belonged to you anyways. I am an atheist and I know quit a lot about your small little book. which doesn't amount to shit as far as mans discoveries.
I am not here to protect anyone's values, I am here to turn your life into a natural Disaster for which you have no power! never did either.
for betraying nature itself and all its scientific values.
1 Samuel 25:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel+25:25&version=NIV) Please pay no attention, my lord, to that wicked man Nabal. He is just like his name—his name means
Fool, and folly goes with him.
You said "even the bible says any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself"
Show me where it says exactly that. :o ;)
"I am not trying to piss you off, just smearing your own shit in your face, besides it belonged to you anyways."
Is that your day job? ;) Yawn.
"I am an atheist and I know quit a lot about your small little book. "
I can clearly see that you are. ;) And I can clearly see that you dont.
"which doesn't amount to shit as far as mans discoveries."
That is your opinion. And you worship men. So sad.
"I am not here to protect anyone's values, I am here to turn your life into a natural Disaster for which you have no power! never did either."
lol Hey Hoptoad, theres some comedy for ya. ;) Oh, about that natural 'D'isaster, I dont have all night, got things to do in the morning. ;) So bring it. ;)
"for betraying nature itself and all its scientific values"
Oh, you worship nature too? You are a 2 time fool, all in one post
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 10:50:02 PM
dear mr. gravock, your phrophocies will be nothing and are nothing and will become history as a false ledger. your words mean nothing in the real world except paranoia. 2012 Friday
Dec 21st will be only a day for the paranoid. only the paranoid won't survive.
I'm not paranoid about Dec 21st 2012. I think it's a beginning of a new age, but I also recognize nobody knows the day or the hour. I do know the day and the hour is 5,500 years from the time God made his covenant with Adam and Eve, in which time He will return them to their former state as they were first created. Not even the adversary knows the day and the hour which God made this covenant between Adam and Eve. After saying this, I do believe we are approaching the end of the 5,500 years. In fact, I look forward to and welcome the end of this system of things.
Gravock
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:02:57 PM
seems I split your hair quite evenly. please continue, I am not done with you until you leave us alone. stop sharing your bible crap in a scientific forum.
No, the hair you split was of your own, and that was trying to make a distinction between what you believe and what "IS". How do I come into what you tried to split, for it to be of my own hair?
Gravock
today
Quote from: Magluvin on November 16, 2012, 11:03:38 PM
1 Samuel 25:25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel+25:25&version=NIV)
Please pay no attention, my lord, to that wicked man Nabal. He is just like his name—his name means Fool, and folly goes with him.
You said "even the bible says any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself"
Show me where it says exactly that. :o ;)
"I am not trying to piss you off, just smearing your own shit in your face, besides it belonged to you anyways."
Is that your day job? ;) Yawn.
"I am an atheist and I know quit a lot about your small little book. "
I can clearly see that you are. ;) And I can clearly see that you dont.
"which doesn't amount to shit as far as mans discoveries."
That is your opinion. And you worship men. So sad.
"I am not here to protect anyone's values, I am here to turn your life into a natural Disaster for which you have no power! never did either."
lol Hey Hoptoad, theres some comedy for ya. ;) Oh, about that natural 'D'isaster, I dont have all night, got things to do in the morning. ;) So bring it. ;)
"for betraying nature itself and all its scientific values"
Oh, you worship nature too? You are a 2 time fool, all in one post
Magzimus Leviticus
today, there are many versions of bibles(see your revision), for which do you conceive. yes, it is said, any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself.
I have read and studied the entire bible for 40 years. it doesn't amount to squat. nor does your knowledge of such.
@onthecuttingedge,
Psalm 14:1 says, "For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good."
The phrase, "in his heart", is in reference to what one believes. Now, split that!
Gravock
I do not worship men nor do I worship fairy tales, I am free of serving your kind and their kind. period. both a like.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:02:57 PM
seems I split your hair quite evenly. please continue, I am not done with you until you leave us alone. stop sharing your bible crap in a scientific forum.
"seems I split your hair quite evenly."
Transparency is a beautiful thing. Just here to start a fight.
"I am not done with you until you leave us alone. stop sharing your bible crap in a scientific forum."
Looks like you own this site. lol You dont have to open this thread. I didnt go all over this site preaching. Sharing? In fact, I didnt start this thread, so you are barking up the wrong tree, pal. Maybe 'Nature can help you out with that. Or one of your man gods. :o lol You are the definition of 'fool'.
You come in here all huffy puffy. Im not going anywhere. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 11:21:32 PM
@onthecuttingedge,
Psalm 14:1 says, "For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good."
The phrase, "in his heart", is in reference to what one believes. Now, split that you!
Gravock
did you not understand what I said. I said that I did not say that god didn't exist, I simply stated I don't believe in god. or are you a retard???? omit it and i will reconcile you.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 16, 2012, 11:24:17 PM
"seems I split your hair quite evenly."
Transparency is a beautiful thing. Just here to start a fight.
"I am not done with you until you leave us alone. stop sharing your bible crap in a scientific forum."
Looks like you own this site. lol You dont have to open this thread. I didnt go all over this site preaching. Sharing? In fact, I didnt start this thread, so you are barking up the wrong tree, pal. Maybe 'Nature can help you out with that. Or one of your man gods. :o lol You are the definition of 'fool'.
You come in here all huffy puffy. Im not going anywhere. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
I am willing to pee up your tree anytime mr.know it all. bring it on.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:30:10 PM
I am willing to pee up your tree anytime mr.know it all. bring it on.
no, I only come to defend what I think is correct, nothing more. without your objective involved. which should be kept to your self as of I unless provoked. keep your religious crap to your self so we can have an intellectual conversation, religion is a poison for which you who believe have already died from.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:15:10 PM
today, there are many versions of bibles(see your revision), for which do you conceive. yes, it is said, any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself.
I have read and studied the entire bible for 40 years. it doesn't amount to squat. nor does your knowledge of such.
" today, there are many versions of bibles(see your revision), for which do you conceive."
Was that a question??? I would think that if you have read the Bible for 40 years, you might know what a ? is. I could be mistaken. ;)
The Holy Bible. Original King James version.
"yes, it is said, any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself."
40 years huh? Give me the book and verse. That should be easy for you as you "know quite a lot" about it.
Come on now, dont dilly dally. What book and verse?
"I have read and studied the entire bible for 40 years. it doesn't amount to squat. nor does your knowledge of such."
Wow. It took you 40 years to come to that conclusion? ??? That just boggles my mind. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:27:48 PM
did you not understand what I said. I said that I did not say that god didn't exist, I simply stated I don't believe in god. or are you a retard? ??? omit it and i will reconcile you.
The lowercase 'g' in god, is in reference to anything that rules over you. God, with a capital 'G', is in reference to the one True God. By using the lowercase 'g', you also excluded the one True God, because the lowercase 'g' also says the one True God doesn't rule over you either. In other words, saying you don't believe in god, is the same as saying you don't believe in God. Again, your trying to split your own hairs. You need to reconcile things with yourself, and not with me.
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 16, 2012, 11:38:41 PM
" today, there are many versions of bibles(see your revision), for which do you conceive."
Was that a question??? I would think that if you have read the Bible for 40 years, you might know what a ? is. I could be mistaken. ;)
The Holy Bible. Original King James version.
"yes, it is said, any man who calls another a fool is a greater fool himself."
40 years huh? Give me the book and verse. That should be easy for you as you "know quite a lot" about it.
Come on now, dont dilly dally. What book and verse?
"I have read and studied the entire bible for 40 years. it doesn't amount to squat. nor does your knowledge of such."
Wow. It took you 40 years to come to that conclusion? ??? That just boggles my mind. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
you already read the quote dumbass, re-read your own shit.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 11:40:55 PM
The lowercase 'g' in god, is in reference to anything that rules over you. God, with a capital 'G', is in reference to the one True God. By using the lowercase 'g', you also excluded the one True God, because the lowercase 'g' also says the one True God doesn't rule over you either. Again, your trying to split your own hairs. You need to reconcile things with yourself, and not with me.
Gravock
lower case g and upper case G only concerns you, it matters not to me because there is no difference in lower g and upper g, they simply don't exist.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:48:06 PM
lower case g and upper case G only concerns you, it matters not to me because there is no difference in lower g and upper g, they simply don't exist.
Then there can be no confusion or hairs for you to split, in what you said. You saying you don't believe in god or God, is the same as saying in your heart there is no god or God. Which, by your own words, makes you a fool!
Gravock
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:35:29 PM
no, I only come to defend what I think is correct, nothing more. without your objective involved. which should be kept to your self as of I unless provoked. keep your religious crap to your self so we can have an intellectual conversation, religion is a poison for which you who believe have already died from.
"I only come to defend what I think is correct"
Oh, so what you think, is the final word? lol Dream on bud.
"which should be kept to your self as of I unless provoked."
Umm, what? Doesnt really make sense at all. Really. It doesnt. :o Lucifer got your tongue? ;)
"keep your religious crap to your self so we can have an intellectual conversation"
We? You just got here. You keep to your self. Again, you dont own this site. You go ahead and tell Stefan of the horrible pain you are going through today and maybe he will close this thread. ;) Good luck with that. I think he has seen it already. Its what, over 100 pages, 43000 plus reads. ;D
"religion is a poison for which you who believe have already died from."
lol, well if you 'think' so. Im just fine and dandy. You are the one that has your panties in a bind here. Just cant stand it. It makes you itch doesnt it? Soon you will just burst!!
And for what dude? Just because you 'think'?? ::)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 11:52:54 PM
Then there can be no confusion or hairs to split in what you said. You saying you don't believe in god or God, is the same as saying in your heart there is no god or God. Which, by your own words, makes you a fool!
Gravock
Amen Brutha. ;) Their stories seem to fall apart, the more they speak. Weird aint it? ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 11:52:54 PM
Then there can be no confusion or hairs to split in what you said. You saying you don't believe in god or God, is the same as saying in your heart there is no god or God. Which, by your own words, makes you a fool!
Gravock
there you go, going calling people fools again, i do not like you calling people fools, do you understand? I will whip you for your un-intelligence. you don't seem to understand? I think you hope as much as the scientific community has, i believe only in the science community. i do not believe in your god. pardon me or not.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 16, 2012, 11:48:06 PM
lower case g and upper case G only concerns you, it matters not to me because there is no difference in lower g and upper g, they simply don't exist.
Thats funny. That book you read for 40 years is full of capital letters. You didnt notice that they do exist? ::)
You and Wilbert must have had the same schooling. He doesnt use caps.
Well wait a minute. You do use caps. "I" Soooo, you dont even exist?? lol
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 17, 2012, 12:04:33 AM
there you go, going calling people fools again, i do not like you calling people fools, do you understand? I will whip you for your un-intelligence. you don't seem to understand? I think you hope as much as the scientific community has, i believe only in the science community. i do not believe in your god. pardon me or not.
No, you have made and called yourself a fool by saying there is no God. Don't psychologically project your foolishness onto somebody else.
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 17, 2012, 12:04:39 AM
Thats funny. That book you read for 40 years is full of capital letters. You didnt notice that they do exist? ::)
You and Wilbert must have had the same schooling. He doesnt use caps.
Well wait a minute. You do use caps. "I" Soooo, you dont even exist?? lol
Magzimus Leviticus
did you just call yourself a fool? wasn't sure about his. i really did read the bible for 40 years, it is no un-truth. yes I really do understand the bible, it is shit.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 12:10:37 AM
No, you are making and calling yourself a fool by saying there is no God.
Gravock
excuse me, I said I don't believe in your god you dumbass, I didn't say he/she didn't exist fuk tard you are the one who is retarded.
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 17, 2012, 12:04:33 AM
there you go, going calling people fools again, i do not like you calling people fools, do you understand? I will whip you for your un-intelligence. you don't seem to understand? I think you hope as much as the scientific community has, i believe only in the science community. i do not believe in your god. pardon me or not.
"there you go, going calling people fools again, i do not like you calling people fools, do you understand?"
Well maybe we dont like anything that you say. Do you understand???????? ;D Tough cookies. ;)
"I will whip you for your un-intelligence."
lol and literally on the floor. Uh ok, back in my chair. Whip away Jim. It tickles. ;D I doubt it will make me laugh harder than what you just said. lol
"i believe only in the science community. i do not believe in your god."
Yes, youve said this already. My un-intelligence helped me to remember what you have already said. ::) What happened to the capital I's? Oh. I pointed it out to you and you are now a small i. Tricky tricky. ;)
"pardon me or not."
Hmm, ok you are pardoned. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 17, 2012, 12:13:33 AM
did you just call yourself a fool? wasn't sure about his. i really did read the bible for 40 years, it is no un-truth. yes I really do understand the bible, it is shit.
How long after you first started reading it did you come to that conclusion?
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 17, 2012, 12:18:01 AM
excuse me, I said I don't believe in your god you dumbass, I didn't say he/she didn't exist fuk tard you are the one who is retarded.
Once again, you're trying to split your own hairs. You really do need to reconcile these things with yourself. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 17, 2012, 12:18:01 AM
excuse me, I said I don't believe in your god you dumbass, I didn't say he/she didn't exist fuk tard you are the one who is retarded.
Ah, ok. Then you just reject God, well knowing he exists. I hate to tell ya, but you have Luciferitis. Its a common thing going around in the atheist community.
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 17, 2012, 12:13:33 AM
did you just call yourself a fool? wasn't sure about his.
Hmm, nope. I reread and reread my post for 40 seconds. ;D Nope. Didnt say that.
Good thing you were not sure about "his?", or I might be sure you were twisting a bit. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 17, 2012, 12:30:04 AM
Ah, ok. Then you just reject God, well knowing he exists. I hate to tell ya, but you have Luciferitis. Its a common thing going around in the atheist community.
Magzimus Leviticus
It's funny they don't see how they're caught in a contradiction in what they say. Then, they split one hair after another going in circles trying to get out of it. And, each hair they split becomes harder to split than the previous hairs. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 12:37:03 AM
It's funny they don't see how they're caught in a contradiction in what they say. Then, they split one hair after another going in circles trying to get out of it. LOL
Gravock
Yep. The smarter ones change the subject before they get too deep. ;)
But this one, he brought his own shovel. ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on November 17, 2012, 12:42:00 AM
Yep. The smarter ones change the subject before they get too deep. ;)
But this one, he brought his own shovel. ;D
Mags
And a pitchfork to see if he's done. I must say, he's already well cooked beyond recognition. In the end, there will be nothing left of their folly, including their tools.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 12:58:04 AM
And a pitchfork to see if he's done. I must say, he's already well cooked beyond recognition. In the end, there will be nothing left of him and his tools.
Gravock
Ashes to ashes. ;)
I make fun. But I also feel for these guys. Some seem to just hate God, while knowing he exists.
Something must have happened in their lives that they blame God for. Everyone loses someone that they love. Most everyone has things happen to them in their lives that they believe is unfair. Some blame God for letting these things happen. And some never let it go. Job was hit from all angles. But in the end, he was still good with God, and God was good with him.
Its all part of what and how they believe God should be if they had it their way. Some say they have read and reread the Bible for 40 odd years and they did not get the message.
I come on hard here because any sign of weakness and then the pack feeds. Also I want to show their flaws in what they say, of which there is quite a bit, so that unwitting others dont end up following their lead. Expose them and they lose their teeth. ;)
Maybe 1 or a few might end up realizing that they are acting as fools once it is presented on them as such by just finally realizing that they are being foolish and that they are not the masters of the universe with all the answers as we see on these pages.. Not many though, if any, of a group such as this.
But I always have hope. ;)
Mags
Quote from: Gwandau on November 16, 2012, 04:45:20 PM
Again I feel obliged to intervene in this discussion, which repeatedly is deviating from proper reflection of given observations.
One reason for this is gravocks incapacity to retorically correct confront his unorthodox view points in a relative context to the accepted observations. Gravock is of course very eager to present proof of what seems fully plausible to him, but when one starts to use non accepted frame of references as arguments, he immediately start losing listeners.
However, the theory of light propagating lineary from A to B is still just an assumption based upon experiments done with a source and a detector. By turning on a lightsource at a recorded point in time we have been able to measure a response in the detector at a certain point in time, thus giving us a time measure relating to the distance between the light source and the detector.
This however does not count as proof of any light actually traveling from A to B. It is merely our sound conclusion since we lack any alternative explanation.
Could it be that mankind's experimental results and observations are accurate, but wrongly interpreted when explained?
What if light is something that does not travel from A to B?
The life long efforts invested by our brightest physicists are all based on a few untouchable fundamental concepts, being the very base for their complex models. But if the foundation of the base is at fault, the rest of the structure will falter.
Let's make an intellectual experiment and imagine the possibility that all observable
events just are mere responses to one single underlying universal energy field.
This is fully possible, since it is, as I have said before, very easy to misread an effect for a cause, if the cause is not directly observable.
For example, just imagine all known physical phenomenons being mere secondary responses to this single underlying field.
In such a scenario our experience of light would be depending upon the field value at the point of source relative to the point of detection, thus creating the illusion of light travelling from A to B.
Instead we maybe just were observing the differential field value and the time differential between these to points in the field. When the lamp is turned on, it may thus only create the illusion of reaching you from the point of departure when in fact the only thing the lamp did was creating a field differential detected by you.
You have to understand that the propagation of light is just as hard to nail as the push/pull alternative regarding gravity.
So laugh as much as you want at gravocks halting attempts to defend his viewpoint, but never forget that hitherto none of us really are in the position to tell what the dynamics behind the phenomenon of light really is.
I advice you all to keep an open mind, scientific revision is always around the corner.
Gwandau
Gwandau,
Don't you think science should present both versions, before they accept one over the other? A version presenting a theory of light moving which reflects the physical world and a theory of light being stationary which reflects the spiritual world. A theory of gravity pushing (spiritual) and a theory of gravity pulling (physical). A theory of a Creator (spiritual) and a theory of a creation (physical). They are the inverse of each other reflecting an invisible world (spiritual) and a visible world (physical). You say I present my theories as facts, yet you fail to realize both versions are correct, assuming of course the foundation is solid as explained below. There is both a spiritual (Creator) and a physical world (creation). However, when science chooses to only present one version, then the theory of a creation becomes a false theory of a big bang (effect) without a Creator (Cause). Then, the theory on the expansion acceleration of the universe becomes a false theory of 'dark energy'. It's ironic, they need a theory on 'dark energy' since they left the 'Cause or a Creator' out of their false big bang theory. It's also equally ironic how their false theories on 'dark energy' appears to be an effect their trying to describe of the True reality for the cause of gravity, which is found in the version they chose to leave out. Then, they have the audacity to call the True reality "dark" energy due to their inversion of the Truth. Continuing on with this, then we get into more nonsense where one error leads to a greater error. By leaving one version out, then it perpetuates a lie, and this lie perpetuates a greater lie, etc. There can be no foundation when science chooses the effect (creation) over the Cause (God), by only presenting one version. As you can see, they are truly the author of confusion.
Then, you have people say there is no scientific evidence for God solely on the basis of science wrongfully choosing to only present one version. If science was true to itself, as it should be, then it should present both versions so people can learn the Truth instead of a lie. There is scientific evidence for God, but science has wrongfully left God out of the equation. The adversary of God has done this intentionally to turn people away from their True God and Creator. Now, you'll find this Truth, which I speak of, also written in the Word of God (below are a few verses). It clearly says the creation is a shadow of the Creator. The physical world is a shadow of the spiritual world. In other words, It says the physical world is not the true form of reality (the physical world is the inverse of the true reality). If you reject the True form of reality (the version science conveniently leaves out), then you reject the Truth (God). "As above, so below". Science is a false religion in and of itself because it leaves out the True form of reality. Science, in it's current form, is satanic at it's very core. Now, ask yourself how the written Word of God knew of the True form of reality which I speak of, before the invent of science in it's current form, choosing to present only one version that perpetuates a lie? This knowledge written in the Word of God could have only originated from God himself.
Hebrews 10:1 says, "For since the law has but a
shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near". (English Standard Version).
Colossians 2:17 says, "These are a
shadow of the things that were to come;
the reality, however, is found in Christ."
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 17, 2012, 01:33:47 AM
Ashes to ashes. ;)
I make fun. But I also feel for these guys. Some seem to just hate God, while knowing he exists.
Something must have happened in their lives that they blame God for. Everyone loses someone that they love. Most everyone has things happen to them in their lives that they believe is unfair. Some blame God for letting these things happen. And some never let it go. Job was hit from all angles. But in the end, he was still good with God, and God was good with him.
Its all part of what and how they believe God should be if they had it their way. Some say they have read and reread the Bible for 40 odd years and they did not get the message.
I come on hard here because any sign of weakness and then the pack feeds. Also I want to show their flaws in what they say, of which there is quite a bit, so that unwitting others dont end up following their lead. Expose them and they lose their teeth. ;)
Maybe 1 or a few might end up realizing that they are acting as fools once it is presented on them as such by just finally realizing that they are being foolish and that they are not the masters of the universe with all the answers as we see on these pages.. Not many though, if any, of a group such as this.
But I always have hope. ;)
Mags
Yes, I feel for them also. I'm afraid some may be beyond hope, according to their own words, but I pray this strong delusion which the adversary has casted over them will be lifted so they may see the Truth, and accept their One True God and Creator.
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 16, 2012, 09:20:49 PM
From what you say here, your definition of faith is that we just assume God is there. ;)
If you had gone through what I have, you would 'know' differently. And think differently. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
the godtard has delusions of grandeur...
to 'think differently' like you, one only need to get hit on the head with a shovel... ::)
and thank you to all the godtards... for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 16, 2012, 10:43:34 PM
The bible says, only a fool says there is no God (Creator). Magluvin is only repeating what is found in the bible to those who says there is no God. Magluvin isn't calling them a fool, but the Word of God is calling them a fool.
Gravock
yeah you godtards ALWAYS hide behind the skirt of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend. because you don't have the brains and balls to think and stand on your own... ::)
Science presents the version for the expansion acceleration of space and dubs it 'dark energy'. Science leaves out the version for the expansion acceleration of matter.
Science presents the version of 96% of the visible universe appears to be missing and dubs it 'dark matter'. Since science has left out the version for the expansion acceleration of matter, then it's not able to account for this missing matter of the visible universe. Science isn't able to account for what gives matter it's mass. It's the expansion acceleration of matter (physical world) moving past stationary light (spiritual world) is what gives matter it's mass. What gives matter it's mass is found in the version they chose to leave out. In other words, the Spiritual world (stationary Light) is what gives mass to matter (physical world). The very fact that matter has mass is the absolute undeniable scientific evidence for the existence of God.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 08:08:03 AM
The very fact that matter has mass is the absolute undeniable scientific evidence for the existence of God.
that is a non sequitur...
you godtards are so asinine. ::)
so that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you cannot present either.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 17, 2012, 08:18:09 AM
that is a non sequitur...
you godtards are so asinine. ::)
so that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend. thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you cannot present either.
It is only non sequitur to those who may not have a Conscious. Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of something beyond (external) or something within oneself (internal). You fail to realize God is within you, as well as being external to you.
External + Internal = Eternal (God)! <-----Undeniable Mathematics and Truth!
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 08:32:27 AM
It is only non sequitur to those who may not have a Conscious. Consciousness is the quality or state of being aware of something beyond (external) or something within oneself (internal). You fail to realize God is within you, as well as being external to you.
External + Internal = Eternal (God)! <-----Undeniable Mathematics and Truth!
Gravock
you godtards are so asinine... ::) you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods godtard... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual godtarded red herring logical fallacies.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
godtard + computer + internet connection = logically fallacious word salad <-----undeniable mathematics and truth!
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 17, 2012, 08:50:22 AM
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods godtard... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours...
your entire response is just another one of your usual godtarded red herring logical fallacies.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
So that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your conscious. Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 08:53:56 AM
So that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your conscious. Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
you godtards are so asinine... ::) you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods godtard... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual godtarded red herring logical fallacies.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 17, 2012, 09:30:40 AM
you godtards are so asinine... ::) you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods godtard... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual godtarded red herring logical fallacies.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
You didn't provide your methods for falsifying all conscious beings including God Himself, nor did you provide the method used to validate yours. ;D
Your entire response is just another one of your usual atheist red herring illogical fallacies.
Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence
nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
firstly you godtard... you didn't EVER request ANY of those things from me... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 09:47:38 AM
You didn't provide your methods for falsifying all conscious beings including God Himself, nor did you provide the method used to validate yours. ;D
Your entire response is just another one of your usual atheist red herring illogical fallacies.
Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
and secondly, you godtards are so asinine... ::) you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods godtard... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual godtarded red herring logical fallacies.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Wilby,
How was your bbq? Was God there?
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 10:14:58 AM
Wilby,
How was your bbq? Was God there?
Gravock
godtard,
it's not sunday yet... ::)
your entire response is just another one of your usual godtarded red herring logical fallacies.
you didn't provide your methods for falsifying all the other gods godtard... nor did you provide the method used to validate yours... ::)
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 13, 2012, 01:11:10 AM
how godtarded can you be? ::) jesus christ you are mental...
no godtard... a picture drawn is NOT extant material evidence nor a logical proof for your imaginary godfairy. nor did i ever say it was. i said and i quote:
"since you're so godtarded as to require it to be spelled out for you, a picture drawn, etc. i'll say it AGAIN... ::)
bring your godfairy (he knows where i live right? he's omnipotent, omniscient and all that delusional crap) over for bbq on fri. nov. 16 2012. if he can create a rock that is too heavy to lift and then lift it, i'll think about bending my knee... until then, you and your retarded delusions can fuck off."
this was in response for you asking what i would accept as extant material evidence... you godtard. ::)
thank you dave bunnell the godtard, for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
According to you the bbq was Nov. 16, 2012. That was yesterday. Oh, I forgot your not conscious of anything. You proved this once again, atheistard. LOL.
So that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your conscious. Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 10:28:47 AM
According to you the bbq was Nov. 16, 2012. That was yesterday. Oh, I forgot your not conscious of anything. You proved this once again. LOL.
So that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your conscious. Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
oh that time! yeah, you and your godfairy didn't show up... what happened?
i thought you were talking about my latest invitation to your godfairy. i prayed to him that he might show up on sunday nov. 18th. i figured he was embarrassed to be seen with you and that's why you guys didn't show on nov. 16th.
oh... and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 17, 2012, 10:33:21 AM
oh that time! yeah, you and your godfairy didn't show up... what happened?
i thought you were talking about my latest invitation to your godfairy. i prayed to him that he might show up on sunday. i figured he was embarrassed to seen with you and that's why you guys didn't show on nov. 16th
oh... and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
How would you know if he showed up or not atheistard, since your not conscious of anything?
So that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your conscious. Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 10:36:30 AM
How would you know if he showed up or not since your not conscious of anything?
So that's a no on the request for extant material evidence or a logical proof for the existence of your conscious. Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
In summary, mass is the visible scientific evidence of God for the physical world, and consciousness is the invisible scientific evidence of God for the Spiritual world. Any claims which are made by the scientific community falsely alleging they have found the higgs boson (their so-called God particle) is based on a lie. Their higgs boson won't be able to explain the 96% of the visible universe which appears to be missing. Then they won't be able to unify gravity or the expansion acceleration of matter with Light or with the expansion acceleration of space. And if they do try, then the expansion acceleration of matter moving past stationary light which give matter it's mass will be in contradiction to their so-called hypothetical higgs boson and with Light. A contradiction is nothing but a lie.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 17, 2012, 10:38:48 AM
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend.
This is nothing but nonsense by an atheistard.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 11:47:24 AM
In summary, mass is the visible scientific evidence of God for the physical world, and consciousness is the invisible scientific evidence of God for the Spiritual world. Any claims which are made by the scientific community falsely alleging they have found the higgs boson (their so-called God particle) is based on a lie. Their higgs boson won't be able to explain the 96% of the visible universe which appears to be missing. Then they won't be able to unify gravity or the expansion acceleration of matter with the expansion acceleration of space. And if they do try, then the expansion acceleration of matter moving past stationary light which give matter it's mass will be in contradiction to their so-called hypothetical higgs boson. A contradiction is nothing but a lie.
Gravock
You seem like a thinking person, so I just don't get it. How in the world do you get from "we cannot currently explain this thing" to "God did it." That is like looking at lightning 10,000 years ago and being certain that is proof of god, since there is no way to explain lightning.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 17, 2012, 12:03:15 PM
You seem like a thinking person, so I just don't get it. How in the world do you get from "we cannot currently explain this thing" to "God did it." That is like looking at lightning 10,000 years ago and being certain that is proof of god, since there is no way to explain lightning.
You didn't provide your methods for falsifying all conscious beings including God Himself, nor did you provide the method used to validate your conscious. ;D
Your entire response is just another one of your usual atheistard red herring illogical fallacies.
Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 12:06:16 PM
You didn't provide your methods for falsifying all conscious beings including God Himself, nor did you provide the method used to validate your conscious. ;D
Your entire response is just another one of your usual atheistard red herring illogical fallacies.
Thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission you don't have a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof in being conscious.
Gravock
I am not Wilby. I agree he is a blowhard.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 17, 2012, 12:24:38 PM
I am not Wilby. I agree he is a blowhard.
Look, I don't want to become like Wilby with his repetitive logical fallacy argument. I don't dislike him or the other atheists or agnostics, but I dislike what they have become. It's this simple, when you do meet your True Creator, and you will, He will say He never knew you. He will say you denied His existence, so He will deny you of your existence. You have free choice and free will. Choose one or the other (God or no God), but you can't have both. In other words, you can't have your cake and eat it to.
Gravock
eatenbyagrue,
Let's put our differences aside and enjoy this beautiful day that has been made for us.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 12:47:36 PM
eatenbyagrue,
Let's put our differences aside and enjoy this beautiful day that has been made for us.
Gravock
Sounds good, it is nice out.
Why you belive god is a man/a he ?
Tommy
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2012, 04:52:06 AM
Gwandau,
Don't you think science should present both versions, before they accept one over the other? A version presenting a theory of light moving which reflects the physical world and a theory of light being stationary which reflects the spiritual world. A theory of gravity pushing (spiritual) and a theory of gravity pulling (physical). A theory of a Creator (spiritual) and a theory of a creation (physical).
Gravock,
science only accepts physical hardcore proof, impossible to debunk. The nice thing with the scientific model is that anyone can repeat the experiment and check the validity of the claim.
You are an intellectually fluid person, you know the spiritual realm will never be part of the traditional scientific outlook, since the very criteria for being part of science is lacking when it comes to spirituality.
Spirituality belongs to your subjective inner experiences and have no place in hardcore physics. You just have to accept that. Remember, I am not saying that there is no spiritual realm. I have my own experiences in this regard. But that knowledge, no matter how sure I am about it, is only intended for the individual paradigm. By going outwardly with your inner experiences as if those are more worthy than the experiences of others, you are violating the integrity of your fellow humans.
Just so you may feel how it is to be subjected to your narcissistic personality, I will project my outlook unto you:
Why do you so stubbornly claim the existence of a personal God? The intelligent pattern that you see around you does not have to originate from any God! It may just as well be originating at levels far beyond human reasoning, where the very idea of a creation and a creator is not only unnessecary, but absolutely primitive!
Why do you Faithers believe that things have to be created? What's wrong with the idea that universe has been here all the time, a never ending reality pulsating back and forth? Whats wrong with the idea if infinity and eternity?
And why do you guys accept the limited aspect of a personal God? A personal God is sadly limited within the confines of your conceptual ability. Don't you realize that a personal God is limited to fit your needs?
To believe in a personal God is to violate the very idea of a God. It is to degrade such a power to fit your narrow minded needs.
The idea of Creation is merely the product of human reasoning. The presence of God that you feel in your heart guiding you, and the evil voice inside trying to seduce you into egoistic behaviour, is the voice of your own unconsciousness, of which your conscious part is but the tip of the iceberg.
I know a man who were exactly in your depht of belief and trust, who as one of very few managed to find his way out of the dogmatic Christan prison into the light of freedom.
He is today an immensely free man, deeply spiritually aware and for the first time since childhood rejoicing every day at the miracle and wonder of life. One might actually say that he is closer to God than ever, without believeing in any humanoid personal God.
Let go of you false God, who you made in your own image, and open up to become part of everything! Be responsible for what you are, throw away those old smelling scrolls and take responsibility for being part of the creation happening NOW!
By throwing away those old foul smelling scrolls you are suddenly back to the original virginity of the childs mind, exactly where your beloved Jesus wanted you to be. You got nothing to lose but your head. ;)
If there ever is going to be a marriage between spirituality and science, spirituality has to evolve far beyond the twisted man made God of Guilt.
Gwandau
105 pages now... and STILL not a SINGLE shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof has been presented by the godtards for the existence of their imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 17, 2012, 09:06:39 PM
105 pages now... and STILL not a SINGLE shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof has been presented by the godtards for the existence of their imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
Hey you again mustard, custard! >:(
You really don't learn ha >:(
Our extant material is spirit and can't be seen with our naked eye, did you got that!? >:(
BUT! He is actively working in our daily lives and we can feel him very much! got that again!?
Now since you are a science man: You try to present to me in my naked eye a 1 kilo of AIR, and i will give you a thousand years to do that. and if you can't do that then i'll cook you, you mustard, custard! ;D
note: do not use the reason of we can't see it but we can feel it!!! >:( ;D
do not copy me you mustard custard! ;D
i really love eating vegetable! ;D
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on November 18, 2012, 01:18:05 AM
Now since you are a science man: You try to present to me in my naked eye a 1 kilo of AIR, and i will give you a thousand years to do that. and if you can't do that then i'll cook you, you mustard, custard! ;D
Tito, you probably don't know what you say: it's pretty easy to liquify the air to see it. Can you liquify God?
Quote from: Qwert on November 18, 2012, 03:34:28 AM
Tito, you probably don't know what you say: it's pretty easy to liquify the air to see it. Can you liquify God?
Can you liquefy your conscious?
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on November 17, 2012, 05:49:04 PM
Gravock,
science only accepts physical hardcore proof, impossible to debunk. The nice thing with the scientific model is that anyone can repeat the experiment and check the validity of the claim.
You are an intellectually fluid person, you know the spiritual realm will never be part of the traditional scientific outlook, since the very criteria for being part of science is lacking when it comes to spirituality.
Spirituality belongs to your subjective inner experiences and have no place in hardcore physics. You just have to accept that.
Remember, I am not saying that there is no spiritual realm. I have my own experiences in this regard. But that knowledge, no matter how sure I am about it, is only intended for the individual paradigm. By going outwardly with your inner experiences as if those are more worthy than the experiences of others, you are violating the integrity of your fellow humans.
Just so you may feel how it is to be subjected to your narcissistic personality, I will project my outlook unto you:
Why do you so stubbornly claim the existence of a personal God? The intelligent pattern that you see around you does not have to originate from any God! It may just as well be originating at levels far beyond human reasoning, where the very idea of a creation and a creator is not only unnessecary, but absolutely primitive!
Why do you Faithers believe that things have to be created? What's wrong with the idea that universe has been here all the time, a never ending reality pulsating back and forth? Whats wrong with the idea if infinity and eternity?
And why do you guys accept the limited aspect of a personal God? A personal God is sadly limited within the confines of your conceptual ability. Don't you realize that a personal God is limited to fit your needs?
To believe in a personal God is to violate the very idea of a God. It is to degrade such a power to fit your narrow minded needs.
The idea of Creation is merely the product of human reasoning. The presence of God that you feel in your heart guiding you, and the evil voice inside trying to seduce you into egoistic behaviour, is the voice of your own unconsciousness, of which your conscious part is but the tip of the iceberg.
I know a man who were exactly in your depht of belief and trust, who as one of very few managed to find his way out of the dogmatic Christan prison into the light of freedom.
He is today an immensely free man, deeply spiritually aware and for the first time since childhood rejoicing every day at the miracle and wonder of life. One might actually say that he is closer to God than ever, without believeing in any humanoid personal God.
Let go of you false God, who you made in your own image, and open up to become part of everything! Be responsible for what you are, throw away those old smelling scrolls and take responsibility for being part of the creation happening NOW!
By throwing away those old foul smelling scrolls you are suddenly back to the original virginity of the childs mind, exactly where your beloved Jesus wanted you to be. You got nothing to lose but your head. ;)
If there ever is going to be a marriage between spirituality and science, spirituality has to evolve far beyond the twisted man made God of Guilt.
Gwandau
Gwandau,
You completely missed the boat. Can science prove one way or another that light itself is moving or it is stationary? No, it can not, and you have already agreed it can not, so it should present both versions so it can be true to itself. Can science prove one way or another that gravity is a pulling force or a pushing force? No, it can not, and you have already agreed it can not, so it should present both versions so it can be true to itself. Then both versions can be united to show how gravity is the expansion acceleration of matter moving past stationary light, which also gives matter it's mass (acceleration has the same effects as gravity according to relativity theory). Leaving one version out, there can be no unification or Truth. Science isn't being true to itself or anyone else by leaving one version out. This is something you and science needs to accept. One version proves the other version. Can't you see this? Hardcore physics is going all the way. Hardcore isn't half assing it like they have done.
Gravock
So all of you who belive god is a man/a he, dont have a answer to why you belive it ?
Are you so hypnoticed bye your belifsystem that you dont even question yourself why ?
Are you so programmed bye mass consciousness that you take it for granted ?
If not, why do you belive god is a man/a he ?
Tommy
Quote from: Tommy on November 18, 2012, 04:17:50 AM
If not, why do you belive god is a man/a he ?
Tommy
The Bible considers God as that.
Quote from: Tommy on November 18, 2012, 04:17:50 AM
So all of you who belive god is a man/a he, dont have a answer to why you belive it ?
Are you so hypnoticed bye your belifsystem that you dont even question yourself why ?
Are you so programmed bye mass consciousness that you take it for granted ?
If not, why do you belive god is a man/a he ?
Tommy
I didn't answer this before because it has no relevancy one way or another (it's trying to split hairs). God has both masculine and feminine attributes and properties. In other words, he's not of a particular s*x. And no, this doesn't mean hermaphrodite either. When Adam and Eve were first created in the image of God, God called both male and female 'man'. According to today's standards and also in those times, 'man' is in reference to a 'he', so this is why 'He' is used in reference to God. Another way to look at this, is 'He/Him' is used in reference to God as a Creator, but 'Her/She' is used in reference to God's creation which mankind refers to as 'nature'.
Gravock
Quote from: Qwert on November 18, 2012, 04:25:43 AM
No.
Does this mean your conscious doesn't exist? Wouldn't you say your conscious is evidence of 'things not seen'? So, you having faith in your conscious is no different than someone else who has faith in God.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 04:39:07 AM
Does this mean your conscious doesn't exist? Wouldn't you say your conscious is evidence of 'things not seen'? So, you having faith in your conscious is no different than someone else who has faith in God.
Gravock
I agree.
Tito asked to present a proof for existence of the air; imaginary things cannot be measured like air.
Quote from: Qwert on November 18, 2012, 03:34:28 AM
Tito, you probably don't know what you say: it's pretty easy to liquify the air to see it. Can you liquify God?
Why?, when you liquified the air, is that still an air? ::)
What i'm trying to contrast is the visibility state of an air! >:( got that?
And i think it is you who do not know between something and something ;D
106 pages now... and STILL not a SINGLE shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof has been presented by the godtards for the existence of their imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
Thank you for answering.
Why would god call two diffrend things the same ? it dosent make sence god lying,
miss informing.
God could call man for man, and whoman for whoman.
If god is all, why not call it, all that is, or just it, instead of him/he created all,
it created all.
If god is not a male only, but evereything, its like calling you a finger instead of a whole human.
I think i the reason why people still call it a man/he, i guess its becouse the bible or other religion (that is written bye humans to control them)
says its a man/he.
That would be the hypnose/program bye the book.
I dont think people in the past (or today for that matter) learned critical thinking and problem solving.
They just acseptet the word and dint think about it if it was even logical.
If i was born in a muslim famely, i would copy that belif, same if i was born into a jehova/christian famely.
Why would i not belive my parents word ?, parents are like god to children.
What people belive has more to do with the geographic location they was born in, than true searching.
Its moore like they copy n paste it into their brain than logical/critical thinking.
True searching would be not to learn the child anything, but ask the child to form their own answer.
Tommy
Quote from: Tommy on November 18, 2012, 08:35:58 AM
Thank you for answering.
Why would god call two diffrend things the same ? it dosent make sence god lying,
miss informing.
God could call man for man, and whoman for whoman.
If god is all, why not call it, all that is, or just it, instead of him/he created all,
it created all.
If god is not a male only, but evereything, its like calling you a finger instead of a whole human.
I think i the reason why people still call it a man/he, i guess its becouse the bible or other religion (that is written bye humans to control them)
says its a man/he.
That would be the hypnose/program bye the book.
I dont think people in the past (or today for that matter) learned critical thinking and problem solving.
They just acseptet the word and dint think about it if it was even logical.
If i was born in a muslim famely, i would copy that belif, same if i was born into a jehova/christian famely.
Why would i not belive my parents word ?, parents are like god to children.
What people belive has more to do with the geographic location they was born in, than true searching.
Its moore like they copy n paste it into their brain than logical thinking.
True searching would be not to learn the child anything, but ask the child to form their own answer.
Tommy
I would like to expand on this, because it does bring up an interesting question which brings some great insight. When it says in Genesis, "Let
us make man in
our image, in our likeness.......", the 'us' and the 'our' is in reference to God and his Nature. God's nature is subservient to Him. He creates all things through His Nature, for Her and by Her. God and His Nature Created a spiritual being in Their image and likeness. They created a spiritual being (image) and a nature (likeness) or environment suitable for this being, and They called both the spiritual being and his nature 'Adam').
Further expanding on this, the adversary of God appeared to the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' as an angel of light and caused or persuaded the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' to disobey their Creator. The 'Adam' and his 'Nature' disobeyed God by touching each other, allowing the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' to become like God, knowing good and evil. The 'Adam' and his 'Nature' created both a physical being and a physical nature or environment for their creation. This was good, because they became like God knowing how His 'Nature' is subservient to Him. This was also bad, because the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' realized how they were also subservient to God and His 'Nature', as the 'Nature' of God is subservient to Him. Then the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' saw they were naked after seeing their creation. Then the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' hid from God when God called out to 'them'. God asked the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' why they were hiding, and 'they' said they were naked. Then God asked the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' if they touched each other which He commanded them not to. The 'Adam' and his 'Nature' said they did touch each other. Then God made skins of garments (flesh) for the 'Adam' and his 'Nature' and removed them from the garden of eden and placed them in a different land. Their was no suitable helper found for the man which 'Adam' and his 'Nature' created, so God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep and He created a 'female' from Adams rib so he would have a suitable helper. The 'man' named his wife 'Eve', since she will be the mother of all the living. Then, the adversary of God appeared to them as an angel of light and caused the downfall of mankind. What I have written can be verified in Genesis and in the books of Adam and Eve. At the end of the 5,500 years, 'Adam' and his 'nature' (Jesus Christ) will be returned to their former state of being as God first created them (this has already occurred through his resurrection). This also includes the creation of mankind through Adam and his 'nature' (Jesus Christ), but not during the same time as Jesus Christ returned to His former state of being. The time is drawing near.
Gravock
Try this and find out ghost by yourself.
http://www.wikihow.com/Perform-a-S%C3%A9ance
So much murmoring! Wait till you die! If you see GOD then you will believe theres heaven, if you see SATAN then you are in a lot of sh#t! Entiendes! Stop arguing with people that cannot understand..... :P
Quote from: crazycut06 on November 18, 2012, 08:54:37 AM
So much murmoring! Wait till you die! If you see GOD then you will believe theres heaven, if you see SATAN then you are in a lot of sh#t! Entiendes! Stop arguing with people that cannot understand..... :P
which god? ra? odin? vishnu?
how about you xian godtards just admit that there is no more evidence for your godfairy than there is for any other godfairy... ::)
Hey W
Its Sunday
Shaddup and go to Choich !
Ask the preach for his evidence?
I double dog dare you !! {Raisin nuts}
Children dont have much of a chanse to find their own answers, as long parents/teachers
only present their version, their religion. You want the children to be good, but still you show
them religion as an answer to all problems, even the past show that religion will polarize people, (i am right and every other religion is wrong)
then they are willing to kill each other in their religions name, that is madness.
Critical thinking involve that you find solutions that work, if it dont work you trow it away and try something else.
When we believe and behave like we are separated from the creator we will kill each other over it, it simply dont work in the long run.
If we believe the creator is not separated from us, that we are all one, you are god also on a ride pretending to be a human. Then we realize we only
hurt our self when we hurt other people. Religion is drama that make us hide from what we really are. Religion is used as a tool to not having to take
responsibility for our lives.
Everything is consciousness, even a rock. Matter is made from consciousness, its just different levels of consciousness.
When science discover that everything is consciousness, religion will quickly try to own it bye saying my religion said that all the time.
The world today show us that there is something we do not understand. We have to seek understanding to rid pain. If we do not understand,
we can not do anything about it, the pain will then ofcourse continue, trying to tell us that there is something we need to understand. Its our ignorance that has to die if the pain shall go away.
Tommy
Quote from: crazycut06 on November 18, 2012, 08:54:37 AM[...] Wait till you die! If you see [...]
What if everyone (initially) sees what they expect? (cf. What Dreams May Come (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Dreams_May_Come_%28film%29))
Looking from this angle, it would probably be most boring for an atheist (expecting nothingness), not very pleasant for someone who committed suicide (despair continues), and after a while also boring for those who have to listen to the same harp tunes over and over again... I guess expecting to see friends would probably be the most fun – which would probably be easier to turn into a weight carrying expectation when transitioning happily without fear (party)...
Quote from: ramset on November 18, 2012, 09:25:30 AM
Hey W
Its Sunday
Shaddup and go to Choich !
Ask the preach for his evidence?
I double dog dare you !! {Raisin nuts}
hey godtard
shut up and get an education!
i did ask the preach for his evidence, multiple times. he responded with the same ignorant, illogical and asinine answers you godtards respond with.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.i double dog dare your imaginary godfairy to manifest itself... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 09:45:38 AM
hey godtard
shut up and get an education!
i did ask the preach for his evidence, multiple times. he responded with the same ignorant, illogical and asinine answers you godtards respond with.
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
i double dog dare your imaginary godfairy to manifest itself... ::)
He already manifested, and you crucified Him allowing Him to return to his former state of being as he was first created. He'll return for us and leave you behind.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 10:19:10 AM
He already manifested, and you crucified Him allowing Him to return to his former state of being as he was first created.
you liar... i have never crucified anyone. god hates liars you know...
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 10:19:10 AM
He'll return for us and leave you behind.
i wish he would hurry up... ::)
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv5W4-JO_N4&feature=watch_response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv5W4-JO_N4&feature=watch_response)
"W" some perspective for you
Quote from: ramset on November 18, 2012, 10:26:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv5W4-JO_N4&feature=watch_response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv5W4-JO_N4&feature=watch_response)
"W" some perspective for you
that's effing hilarious!!! the pretentious, sanctimonious and self-righteous godtard is preaching about perspective. oh the irony...
hey godtard... thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 10:25:26 AM
you liar... i have never crucified anyone. god hates liars you know...
i wish he would hurry up... ::)
You're crucifying him all over again by saying He doesn't exist while publicly disgracing Him. It says this in his Word. So, you need to stop lying to yourself.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 10:40:42 AM
You're crucifying him all over again by saying He doesn't exist while publicly disgracing Him. It says this in his Word. So, you need to stop lying to yourself.
Gravock
you lying godtard... i'm not crucifying him by any stretch of the word and i never said he doesn't exist... ::) regardless, no extant material evidence of his existence has been presented... and it's not possible to disgrace something imaginary... ::)
hey godtard... thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 10:43:47 AM
you lying godtard... i never said he doesn't exist... ::) regardless, no extant material evidence of his existence has been presented... and it's not possible to disgrace something imaginary... ::)
hey godtard... thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
You're trying to split hairs like jerry. Regardless, your publicly disgracing Him, which means your crucifying him all over again.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 10:48:33 AM
You're trying to split hairs like jerry. Regardless, your publicly disgracing Him, which means your crucifying him all over again.
Gravock
dave, you're such a lying godtard... i'm not crucifying him by any stretch of the word and i never said he doesn't exist... ::) regardless, no extant material evidence of his existence has been presented... and it's not possible to disgrace something imaginary... ::)
if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend feels disgraced then let him tell me... your opinion on the matter doesn't mean jack shit... ::)
and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 10:50:11 AM
dave, you're such a lying godtard... i'm not crucifying him by any stretch of the word and i never said he doesn't exist... ::) regardless, no extant material evidence of his existence has been presented... and it's not possible to disgrace something imaginary... ::)
if your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend feels disgraced then let him tell me... your opinion on the matter doesn't mean jack shit... ::)
and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
I detect a little bit of fear from you. And yes, you are splitting hairs. You saying God is an 'imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend' is the same as saying God doesn't exist,
atheistard.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 11:04:25 AM
I detect a little bit of fear from you. And yes, you are splitting hairs. You saying God is an 'imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend' is the same as saying he doesn't exist, atheistard.
Gravock
no fear here. your imaginary godfairy doesn't scare me anymore than leprechauns do... ::)
no i'm not "splitting hairs". i have never crucified anyone... and for you to suggest that i have is simply asinine and delusional.
correct. your imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend is imaginary... just like leprechauns and this invisible pink dragon on my keyboard. AND JUST LIKE LEPRECHAUNS AND THIS INVISIBLE PINK DRAGON YOU DON'T HAVE A SINGLE SHRED OF EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE TO DEMONSTRATE OTHERWISE... ::) you godtards are so asinine... ::)
and for the umpteenth time... i'm agnostic you fucking moron... ::)
i'll tell you what dave... if i ever do decide to start crucifying people, i'll start with you and that godtard bruce and your families... ::) since you would the very same unto me given the chance... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 11:08:18 AM
no fear here. your imaginary godfairy doesn't scare me anymore than leprechauns do... ::)
no i'm not "splitting hairs". i have never crucified anyone... and for you to suggest that i have is simply asinine and delusional.
correct. your imaginary godfairy creator/savior friend is imaginary... just like leprechauns and this invisible pink dragon on my keyboard. AND JUST LIKE LEPRECHAUNS AND THIS INVISIBLE PINK DRAGON YOU DON'T HAVE A SINGLE SHRED OF EXTANT MATERIAL EVIDENCE TO DEMONSTRATE OTHERWISE... ::) you godtards are so asinine... ::)
Your ignorance and your contradictions stands out on their own. There is no need for me to point them out. You're not fooling anyone other than yourself. You're not even fooling the ones who believe as you do. LOL.
Gravock
troll on godtard... troll on...
you know you won't convince me or any others on here with your asinine logical fallacies... you know that we will require extant material evidence an/or a logical proof. you know that you cannot at this time present either of those tow things... so it's quite clear that the only reason you continue to post your delusions here is in an attempt to convince yourself... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 11:10:26 AM
i'll tell you what dave... if i ever do decide to start crucifying people, i'll start with you and that godtard bruce and your families... ::) since you would the very same unto me given the chance... ::)
No, you're wrong. I would not do the very same unto you. Although you clearly stated you would do this to me, Bruce and to our families. What a way to be. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 11:14:18 AM
Your ignorance and your contradictions stands out on their own. There is no need for me to point them out. You're not fooling anyone other than yourself. You're not even fooling the ones who believe as you do. LOL.
Gravock
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 11:14:50 AM
troll on godtard... troll on...
you know you won't convince me or any others on here with your asinine logical fallacies... you know that we will require extant material evidence an/or a logical proof. you know that you cannot at this time present either of those tow things... so it's quite clear that the only reason you continue to post your delusions here is in an attempt to convince yourself... ::)
I'm not the one who called you a blowhard. The only one left to be convinced of this is yourself, but you can't see beyond yourself. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 11:22:15 AM
I'm not the one who called you a blowhard. The only one left to be convinced of this is yourself, but you can't see beyond yourself. LOL
Gravock
yeah grue is an idiot... and just like you, grue seems to enjoy making up his own definitions for words (or using wholly inappropriate words).
IE: blow·hard/ˈblōˌhärd/
Noun:
A person who blusters and boasts in an unpleasant way.
i haven't blustered nor boasted... all i have done is to ask you godtards to present a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend...that and i have asked you to present the methods you used to falsify all the other godfairies humanity has created and to present the methods you used to validate your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend. ::)
neither of those two REQUESTS constitute bluster or boasting... ::)
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 11:16:39 AM
No, you're wrong. I would not do the very same unto you. Although you clearly stated you would do this to me, Bruce and to our families. What a way to be. LOL
Gravock
no, i'm right. i say you would. and that's all that matters... ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 11:46:17 AM
no, i'm right. i say you would. and that's all that matters... ;)
So, you believe what ever you like and could care less if it's contrary to what 'is' or 'IS'. You said it, not me.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 12:08:14 PM
So, you believe what ever you like and could care less if it's contrary to what 'is' or 'IS'. You said it, not me.
Gravock
seriously? you can't even discern when you are being mocked?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 11:45:45 AM
yeah grue is an idiot... and just like you, grue seems to enjoy making up his own definitions for words (or using wholly inappropriate words).
IE: blow·hard/ˈblōˌhärd/
Noun:
A person who blusters and boasts in an unpleasant way.
i haven't blustered nor boasted... all i have done is to ask you godtards to present a single shred of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior friend...that and i have asked you to present the methods you used to falsify all the other godfairies humanity has created and to present the methods you used to validate your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend. ::) neither of those two REQUESTS constitute bluster or boasting... ::)
thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you have neither a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend.
Maybe it was not the perfect word, but I meant it in the sense that you are egotistical and self absorbed. This is evidenced in your constant repeating of your mantra.
This forum is a public thing, so whenever you post something, it should at least be interesting to all who are following the discussion. Now, we are all human, and in the heat of the argument certain things may get said, but with you, you use this forum like your own personal insult platform. You do not give two shits about anyone else reading it. You drag people into ad hominem attacks by calling them "godtards". This is not a civil way to behave, and while you are correct on the position of the existence of god, you are a detestible person. An asshole in every sense.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 18, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
Maybe it was not the perfect word, but I meant it in the sense that you are egotistical and self absorbed. This is evidenced in your constant repeating of your mantra.
my 'mantra' is repeated because they keep responding with logical fallacies... ::) repeatedly.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 18, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
This forum is a public thing, so whenever you post something, it should at least be interesting to all who are following the discussion. Now, we are all human, and in the heat of the argument certain things may get said, but with you, you use this forum like your own personal insult platform. You do not give two shits about anyone else reading it. You drag people into ad hominem attacks by calling them "godtards". This is not a civil way to behave, and while you are correct on the position of the existence of god, you are a detestible person. An asshole in every sense.
don't be such a prima donna... ::) it's tit for tat, quid pro quo... if they behave arrogantly and self-righteously, i will return that to them. if i have to be gross about it to get them to understand empathy, then so be it.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 11:04:25 AM
I detect a little bit of fear from you. And yes, you are splitting hairs. You saying God is an 'imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend' is the same as saying God doesn't exist, atheistard.
Gravock
Yes, exactly. Wilbert cannot grasp that consistently saying God is imaginary 'is' saying that God doesnt exist.
He must be a badnostic. ;) A lunatic at best. His All Fodda must be proud? :o :o
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
my 'mantra' is repeated because they keep responding with logical fallacies... ::) repeatedly.
don't be such a prima donna... ::) it's tit for tat, quid pro quo... if they behave arrogantly and self-righteously, i will return that to them. if i have to be gross about it to get them to understand empathy, then so be it.
Empathy??? More like Idiocracy!! ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 18, 2012, 12:38:18 PM
seriously? you can't even discern when you are being mocked?
You wasn't mocking me. You're not able to discern between a truth and a lie. You're also not able to discern between what you say, and what you thought you said, and in what you meant you thought you said. LOL. Don't they say a gold fish has a memory of only a few seconds. After a few seconds they forget what they are running from, stop, and become lunch. I don't even give you a few seconds. You instantaneously and willing-ling jump right into it. You then cleanse yourself like a female swine and jump right back into the mud. LOL
Gravock
Quote from: Tito L. Oracion on November 18, 2012, 07:13:43 AM
Why?, when you liquified the air, is that still an air? ::)
What i'm trying to contrast is the visibility state of an air! >:( got that?
And i think it is you who do not know between something and something ;D
Not only air. We have devices to measure existing media INDIRECTLY: electric field, magnetic field, electromagnetic waves, electric, magnetic currents, etc. And nobody yet created a device to measure or to feel God, directly or indirectly. Thus, your comparison here is somewhat inappropriate.
Quote from: Tommy on November 18, 2012, 09:30:18 AM
Children dont have much of a chanse to find their own answers, as long parents/teachers
only present their version, their religion. You want the children to be good, but still you show
them religion as an answer to all problems, even the past show that religion will polarize people, (i am right and every other religion is wrong)
then they are willing to kill each other in their religions name, that is madness.
Critical thinking involve that you find solutions that work, if it dont work you trow it away and try something else.
When we believe and behave like we are separated from the creator we will kill each other over it, it simply dont work in the long run.
If we believe the creator is not separated from us, that we are all one, you are god also on a ride pretending to be a human. Then we realize we only
hurt our self when we hurt other people. Religion is drama that make us hide from what we really are. Religion is used as a tool to not having to take
responsibility for our lives.
Everything is consciousness, even a rock. Matter is made from consciousness, its just different levels of consciousness.
When science discover that everything is consciousness, religion will quickly try to own it bye saying my religion said that all the time.
The world today show us that there is something we do not understand. We have to seek understanding to rid pain. If we do not understand,
we can not do anything about it, the pain will then ofcourse continue, trying to tell us that there is something we need to understand. Its our ignorance that has to die if the pain shall go away.
Tommy
Tommy,
you are shooting far above the rigid heads of these fundamentalistic "true to the letter"-fanatics who all belive the universe is 5500 years old and who all are expecting a Doomsday treat to their favour any day now.
They have made their own prison of ignorance and calls it the temple of truth. They are their own wardens and gards, and the possibility to escape into freedom is extremely small, if possible at all.
Every idea or thought process that may threaten their illusion is either ignored or labeled as blasphemic. It is a water tight system, created many hundred years ago by a bunch of pre gnostic geniuses most likely on a horrendously bad trip.
Christianity thus has since long left what was a genuin understanding of the enlightened Jesus. Deformed into its own anti christ, hiding behind the facade of righteousness, propelling a twisted version of the pure and simple wisdom of Jesus into their dogmatic mental torture cells of guilt and fear, Christianity now are doing more harm than good, adding to the overall duality and splitting mechanisms effected upon humanity today.
Since these people observe the world through their multiple defracting layers of dogmatic filters, everything they see is but a projection forced upon reality to keep the Christian dogmatic fundament intact, so don't expect that anything you say might reach them in the originally intended form.
It's interesting to study for a while, but if the reason for your presence is compassion, the understanding of the predicament of these people unfortunately will make you somewhat sad.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 18, 2012, 03:20:17 PM
Tommy,
you are shooting far above the rigid heads of these fundamentalistic "true to the letter"-fanatics who all belive the universe is 5500 years old and who all are expecting a Doomsday treat to their favour any day now.
They have made their own prison of ignorance and calls it the temple of truth. They are their own wardens and gards, and the possibility to escape into freedom is extremely small, if possible at all.
Every idea or thought process that may threaten their illusion is either ignored or labeled as blasphemic. It is a water tight system, created many hundred years ago by a bunch of pre gnostic geniuses most likely on a horrendously bad trip.
Christianity thus has since long left what was a genuin understanding of the enlightened Jesus. Deformed into its own anti christ, hiding behind the facade of righteousness, propelling a twisted version of the pure and simple wisdom of Jesus into their dogmatic mental torture cells of guilt and fear, Christianity now are doing more harm than good, adding to the overall duality and splitting mechanisms effected upon humanity today.
Since these people observe the world through their multiple defracting layers of dogmatic filters, everything they see is but a projection forced upon reality to keep the Christian dogmatic fundament intact, so don't expect that anything you say might reach them in the originally intended form.
It's interesting to study for a while, but if the reason for your presence is compassion, the understanding of the predicament of these people unfortunately will make you somewhat sad.
Gwandau
All that you say is opinion. Not a fact in the lot. ::) ;)
We are happy with what we have and you present as if we are suffering, when it is you that cant stand what we have, thus are here to post your opinions as if it were written fact or law.
All together, you have nothing.
Magzimus Leviticus
Magzimus Leviticus
Thank you Gwandau for the reminder of compassion.
Magluvin i respect your view, i respect that you choose to belive.
And i respect you for what you are.
And thank you for sharing how you choose to see it.
Now we can all smile :) ;D :D :o :)
Tommy
I do not believe the Universe is 6,000 years old. Only those who have not rightly divided the Word of God (Scriptures) say that. Below is a great visual, by Clarance Larkin (R.I.P.) Author of the Dakes annotated Bible and many books. His drawings and understanding of the dispensations are some of the best there have ever been, even though they are very old now.
This is just one. If you are interested in reading his write up that goes with this drawing, just let me know and I will be happy to post it.
Walking with Jesus,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 18, 2012, 04:57:29 PM
I do not believe the Universe is 6,000 years old. Only those who have not rightly divided the Word of God (Scriptures) say that.
hear that dave? bruce says you have not rightly divided the word of gawd...
It must be true, its in a drawing.
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 18, 2012, 04:57:29 PM
I do not believe the Universe is 6,000 years old. Only those who have not rightly divided the Word of God (Scriptures) say that. Below is a great visual, by Clarance Larkin (R.I.P.) Author of the Dakes annotated Bible and many books. His drawings and understanding of the dispensations are some of the best there have ever been, even though they are very old now.
This is just one. If you are interested in reading his write up that goes with this drawing, just let me know and I will be happy to post it.
Walking with Jesus,
Bruce
This is heresy and blasphemy. The bible provides a complete and accurate genealogy, when compiled and counted adds up to about 4000 years. Add 2000 years since the Bible, and you get an earth about 6000 years old. Any attempt to argue this is an affront to God himself. God did not bother to write the Holy Word and spell out genealogy in great detail for humans to argue with it. You will surely burn in hell for this blasphemy, Bruce.
I said "I do not believe the UNIVERSE is 6,000 years old". I said nothing of modern mans existence. As always, your failure to both read and understand is mind boggeling.
How can I debate against the twisted thinking. I can only point to the truth in hopes that many readers actually have much more discernment and snap then I see demonstrated from this rabble.
For those who worship intellectual persuit, the lack of basic understanding of even primal things, like "reading comprehension" is truly apalling. So what do these intellectual giants then do? They go back to their baser nature of name calling. Like the apes they claim to descend from, beating on their chests. When in truth, they are goats, being blindly led down the path of destruction.
Repent now, call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, while there is still time. For THAT day is fast approaching.....
Maranatha,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 18, 2012, 07:37:30 PM
snap...
They go back to their baser nature of name calling. Like the apes they claim to descend from, beating on their chests. When in truth, they are goats,
snip.....
Base is as base does
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 18, 2012, 07:37:30 PM
I said "I do not believe the UNIVERSE is 6,000 years old". I said nothing of modern mans existence. As always, your failure to both read and understand is mind boggeling.
How can I debate against the twisted thinking. I can only point to the truth in hopes that many readers actually have much more discernment and snap then I see demonstrated from this rabble.
For those who worship intellectual persuit, the lack of basic understanding of even primal things, like "reading comprehension" is truly apalling. So what do these intellectual giants then do? They go back to their baser nature of name calling. Like the apes they claim to descend from, beating on their chests. When in truth, they are goats, being blindly led down the path of destruction.
Repent now, call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, while there is still time. For THAT day is fast approaching.....
Maranatha,
Bruce
You repent, blasphemer! This earth was created in a few days just before the creation of Man. I am honoring our God by spreading the good word that the earth is only 6000 years old. You, however, will surely burn in hell for your blasphemies. Blasphemer!
Quote from: Gwandau on November 18, 2012, 03:20:17 PM
Tommy,
you are shooting far above the rigid heads of these fundamentalistic "true to the letter"-fanatics who all belive the universe is 5500 years old and who all are expecting a Doomsday treat to their favour any day now.
They have made their own prison of ignorance and calls it the temple of truth. They are their own wardens and gards, and the possibility to escape into freedom is extremely small, if possible at all.
Every idea or thought process that may threaten their illusion is either ignored or labeled as blasphemic. It is a water tight system, created many hundred years ago by a bunch of pre gnostic geniuses most likely on a horrendously bad trip.
Christianity thus has since long left what was a genuin understanding of the enlightened Jesus. Deformed into its own anti christ, hiding behind the facade of righteousness, propelling a twisted version of the pure and simple wisdom of Jesus into their dogmatic mental torture cells of guilt and fear, Christianity now are doing more harm than good, adding to the overall duality and splitting mechanisms effected upon humanity today.
Since these people observe the world through their multiple defracting layers of dogmatic filters, everything they see is but a projection forced upon reality to keep the Christian dogmatic fundament intact, so don't expect that anything you say might reach them in the originally intended form.
It's interesting to study for a while, but if the reason for your presence is compassion, the understanding of the predicament of these people unfortunately will make you somewhat sad.
Gwandau
Where did I say the universe was 5500 years old? I actually think the earth is much older than what religion itself teaches. It says in scripture a day is like a 1000 years. In fact, I have already posted that in a prior post. Also, at the end of the 5500 years I speak of, things will be restored and made new again. God's children will live in piece for a 1,000 and then the adversary tempts the children of God again and the process more than likely continues another cycle. The religions of today have been corrupted by the adversary just like science, government, etc. However, God's Word still remains True if one takes the time to truly understand it.
This is the problem with you, I say one thing, and you automatically and wrongly assume another thing. You don't even try to understand what I'm saying. You have your own preconceived ideas and then try to wrap that around what I say. Your not true with yourself or anyone else. You walk after your own lusts and desires at any cost, and you reject God because you don't want to be accountable to anyone. You can reject Him if you like, but you will be held accountable. It amazes me how you hate us so much for having faith in a God, who you reject or don't believe in.
Gravock
The hilarity just keeps coming.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 18, 2012, 03:36:40 PM
All that you say is opinion. Not a fact in the lot. ::) ;)
We are happy with what we have and you present as if we are suffering, when it is you that cant stand what we have, thus are here to post your opinions as if it were written fact or law.
All together, you have nothing.
Magzimus Leviticus
I never claimed anything in my last post to be facts. I am merely trying to initiate self awareness in you guys, who all seem to be victims of a grand delusion by confusing your inner experiences with the presence of a personal god. You are so confused. What on earth makes you think that your inner voice is the voice of a personal god that guides you?
You are suffering ignorance when it comes to understanding spirit. To believe in a personal god is to violate the very concept of an omnipresent consciousness, it is to degrade and diminish the very mystery behind consciousness and universe. The ones depicting the concept of a personal God are those who lack the ability to tune into a higher level of understanding.
All your prayers are directed to a part of yourself that is the real you. Not the part of you that you think is you. That conscious part is but a superficial and shallow reflection of your true self. When awakened into full spiritual consciousness you will realize there is no God, only consciousness, just as Tommy empasized. We are all the same entity looking into this world through different eyes. Separation is an illusion created by the limitating dynamics of logging in to the physical world. But we are all the same One. That's the beautiful twist to existence. Your personal god is just your own echo, enhanced by the magnified wisdom of your unconsciousness, your true being.
Peace, Love, and Understanding
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 18, 2012, 09:12:52 PM
I never claimed anything in my last post to be facts. I am merely trying to initiate self awareness in you guys, who all seem to be victims of a grand delusion by confusing your inner experiences with the presence of a personal god. You are so confused. What on earth makes you think that your inner voice is the voice of a personal god that guides you?
You are suffering ignorance when it comes to understanding spirit. To believe in a personal god is to violate the very concept of an omnipresent consciousness, it is to degrade and diminish the very mystery behind consciousness and universe. The ones depicting the concept of a personal God are those who lack the ability to tune into a higher level of understanding.
All your prayers are directed to a part of yourself that is the real you. Not the part of you that you think is you. That conscious part is but a superficial and shallow reflection of your true self. When awakened into full spiritual consciousness you will realize there is no God, only consciousness, just as Tommy empasized. We are all the same entity looking into this world through different eyes. Separation is an illusion created by the limitating dynamics of logging in to the physical world. But we are all the same One. That's the beautiful twist to existence. Your personal god is just your own echo, enhanced by the magnified wisdom of your unconsciousness, your true being.
Peace, Love, and Understanding
Gwandau
When are you going to stop half assing it and be true to yourself?
Gravock
Quote from: hoptoad on November 18, 2012, 09:02:40 PM
The hilarity just keeps coming.
Yhea, and you're it's leader.
Gravock
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 18, 2012, 07:17:16 PM
This is heresy and blasphemy. The bible provides a complete and accurate genealogy, when compiled and counted adds up to about 4000 years. Add 2000 years since the Bible, and you get an earth about 6000 years old. Any attempt to argue this is an affront to God himself. God did not bother to write the Holy Word and spell out genealogy in great detail for humans to argue with it. You will surely burn in hell for this blasphemy, Bruce.
Dont be down on Bruce. There is the idea of Gods time and Earth time. God doesnt necessarily run on Earth time. ;)
One way or the other, dinosaurs fossils, early findings of man like skeletons were put into the earth, and according to 'science', before the time of Adam and Eve.
So lets say that maybe God, in either 7 days his time, or maybe 7 days our time, as we know it, created it all. Being that he has the power to do so, one way or the other, it is 'possible that the All Mighty God created it all, with age and history factored in, before Adam and Eve.
If it wasnt done that way, what would scientist and evolutionists have nothing to talk about? ;)
To me, it doesnt matter either way. Whether God started it all off with a big bang, and waited and waited millions or billions of years to get to the point of Adam and Eve, or if 'all that' was just implemented at the time of creation. Why not? He is God. he set the stage. And yes, possibly in 7 days. How? He is God. ;D
Magzimus Leviticus
Let me change the topic slightly. What do you believers think about the Tower of Babel story? Do you really believe that the reason we have all these different languages in the world is because of the Tower of Babel? If so, how do you explain the formation of different languages after the time of the Tower, and why couldn't languages have formed the same way before the supposed Tower story?
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 10:06:30 PM
Yhea, and you're it's leader.
Gravock
Hmmnn, the leader of hilarity - I like that. It has nice jocular overtones.
Thanks for the laughs, minion.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 18, 2012, 11:07:56 PM
Let me change the topic slightly. What do you believers think about the Tower of Babel story? Do you really believe that the reason we have all these different languages in the world is because of the Tower of Babel? If so, how do you explain the formation of different languages after the time of the Tower, and why couldn't languages have formed the same way before the supposed Tower story?
Yes, I believe it. ;) What do you believe? :)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 18, 2012, 11:34:15 PM
Yes, I believe it. ;) What do you believe? :)
Magzimus Leviticus
Come on, you seriously believe that story?
I believe languages diverged rapidly in ancient times due to isolation of cultures. This happened exactly the same way that Latin dialects formed into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, for example.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 19, 2012, 12:02:41 AM
Come on, you seriously believe that story?
I believe languages diverged rapidly in ancient times due to isolation of cultures. This happened exactly the same way that Latin dialects formed into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, for example.
And where did the diversity of cultures come from?
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 12:07:29 AM
And where did the diversity of cultures come from?
Mags
The cultures diversified over time due to internal and external factors, as all cultures do. Was that a serious question?
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 12:07:29 AM
And where did the diversity of cultures come from?
snip...
From the same place diversity of religion came from. The human mind reacting and adapting to its environment.
Humans are not the only creatures that exhibit cultural diversity within their own species.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 19, 2012, 12:10:21 AM
The cultures diversified over time due to internal and external factors, as all cultures do. Was that a serious question?
Actually it was a very serious question. ;)
Here is another serious question. If they diversified 'over time' then how did they differentiate themselves in the early to mid periods of development in order to develop diverse cultures to begin with? ??? ?? Why did they not just all of them grow into the same culture? Because they gradually, over what ever period of time you figure, changed physical appearance.
With this kind of growing diversity over great periods of time, change in color and, what we call now, nationality, when exactly did they all separate to their own countries?
I would think that if cultural diversity happened gradually as you suggest, that mixing in the early to mid stages would make it impossible for concise diversity to come about.
And then later on, all of the blacks, whites, yellows, reds, just finally had it with each other and separated?
Are you serious?? ;) They got along for all that time as they slowly changed, mixing and mixing along the way because they couldnt tell each other apart? ??? And that caused concise diversity???
I am not belittling you. ;) But you have to understand where Im coming from, dont you? :)
Mags
Quote from: hoptoad on November 19, 2012, 12:34:04 AM
From the same place diversity of religion came from. The human mind reacting and adapting to its environment.
Humans are not the only creatures that exhibit cultural diversity within their own species.
Already answered that in my last post. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 12:40:44 AM
Already answered that in my last post. ;)
snip....
I wasn't looking for an answer, but thank you.
Your previous non answer to eatenbyagrue was just a litany of questions.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 12:36:33 AM
Actually it was a very serious question. ;)
Here is another serious question. If they diversified 'over time' then how did they differentiate themselves in the early to mid periods of development in order to develop diverse cultures to begin with? ??? ?? Why did they not just all of them grow into the same culture? Because they gradually, over what ever period of time you figure, changed physical appearance.
With this kind of growing diversity over great periods of time, change in color and, what we call now, nationality, when exactly did they all separate to their own countries?
I would think that if cultural diversity happened gradually as you suggest, that mixing in the early to mid stages would make it impossible for concise diversity to come about.
And then later on, all of the blacks, whites, yellows, reds, just finally had it with each other and separated?
Are you serious?? ;) They got along for all that time as they slowly changed, mixing and mixing along the way because they couldnt tell each other apart? ??? And that caused concise diversity???
I am not belittling you. ;) But you have to understand where Im coming from, dont you? :)
Mags
You leave me with the terrible impression of someone who has not even studied basic anthropology. All these questions have been thoroughly answered. This is like someone laying out alternate answers to the multiplication tables. I do not even want to begin to try to educate you on this, because I do not have time to start at such an early stage of discussions.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 19, 2012, 12:02:41 AM
snip..
This happened exactly the same way that Latin dialects formed into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Romanian, for example.
The documented evidence for this linguistic evolution abounds and includes the early bible (written in Latin long before King James was born).
The metamorphosis from Latin to the languages you've mentioned have all occurred within modern historical times. That is, the last 2000 years.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 19, 2012, 12:57:24 AM
You leave me with the terrible impression of someone who has not even studied basic anthropology. All these questions have been thoroughly answered. This is like someone laying out alternate answers to the multiplication tables. I do not even want to begin to try to educate you on this, because I do not have time to start at such an early stage of discussions.
Oh I know of it. Again, you are believing in science written by men, yet since the Bible is written by men it must be a fairy tale. ::)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 01:34:51 AM
Oh I know of it. Again, you are believing in science written by men, yet since the Bible is written by men it must be a fairy tale. ::)
Magzimus Leviticus
Now your getting it! Science was written and will continue to be written by men. Men who accept they may be right or they may be wrong.
Science doesn't pretend to know all the questions let alone know all the answers.
The bible is also written by men, and interpreted by some who think it presents all the questions and all the answers, and their interpretation couldn't possibly be wrong.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 19, 2012, 01:44:36 AM
Now your getting it! Science was written and will continue to be written by men. Men who accept they may be right or they may be wrong.
Science doesn't pretend to know all the questions let alone know all the answers.
The bible is also written by men, and interpreted by some who think it presents all the questions and all the answers, and their interpretation couldn't possibly be wrong.
Thats just it Hoppy. If what you said above is what you believe, then why are you hopping on us for having our belief as if it 'is' fairy tales?
Im into science. I dont believe it all. I have interests in technology. But I dont like everything it is being used for. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 01:56:06 AM
Thats just it Hoppy. If what you said above is what you believe, then why are you hopping on us for having our belief as if it 'is' fairy tales?
Im into science. I dont believe it all. I have interests in technology. But I dont like everything it is being used for. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
I'm not hopping on you for your "fairytales". I've told you before that I accept your faith without prejudice to you, but it seems as a non believer, I must at all costs become a believer.
Gravock is also entitled to his religious faith without prejudice, but when he presents hypothesis as science, then as truth, then it must be based on science, not just assertion. It is not his (or your faith) I find hilarious, but his attempted presentation of opinion and assertion as fact.
I also don't believe every scientific hypothesis or even theory, or like everything that science has made possible. Can't please all the people all the time.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 19, 2012, 02:20:29 AM
I'm not hopping on you for your "fairytales". I've told you before that I accept your faith without prejudice to you, but it seems as a non believer, I must at all costs become a believer.
I dont believe I have pressured you to do anything. Probably a lot of what you know on what it is, 'fairy tails', is where you stand no matter what I say. That doesnt mean we cant get along. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus ;D
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 02:31:08 AM
I dont believe I have pressured you to do anything. Probably a lot of what you know on what it is, 'fairy tails', is where you stand no matter what I say. That doesnt mean we cant get along. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus ;D
Agreed.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 19, 2012, 02:48:07 AM
Agreed.
See ya tomorrow Hops. Im beat. Gotta git some sleeps. ;)
Mags ;D
Quote from: Qwert on November 18, 2012, 03:04:15 PM
Not only air. We have devices to measure existing media INDIRECTLY: electric field, magnetic field, electromagnetic waves, electric, magnetic currents, etc. And nobody yet created a device to measure or to feel God, directly or indirectly. Thus, your comparison here is somewhat inappropriate.
No!, What i want to compare here is that there are mysterious creation that until now are still mysterious and its toooooo early for us to say that there is no God? did you got me friend?
and i think is that The device you need to know now is "REAL FAITH" for you cannot see or feel God without it. :)
and this device of FAITH is really difficult cause there is an involvement of intellect and pride fighting in the head. :)
that's why real humility is the secret :)
Quote from: Qwert on November 18, 2012, 07:09:30 AM
I agree.
Tito asked to present a proof for existence of the air; imaginary things cannot be measured like air.
Do you think your conscious is an 'imaginary' thing since it can't be measured like air?
Gravock
Quote from: hoptoad on November 19, 2012, 02:20:29 AM
I'm not hopping on you for your "fairytales". I've told you before that I accept your faith without prejudice to you, but it seems as a non believer, I must at all costs become a believer.
Gravock is also entitled to his religious faith without prejudice, but when he presents hypothesis as science, then as truth, then it must be based on science, not just assertion. It is not his (or your faith) I find hilarious, but his attempted presentation of opinion and assertion as fact.
I also don't believe every scientific hypothesis or even theory, or like everything that science has made possible. Can't please all the people all the time.
Here's scientific evidence for the expansion acceleration of space and matter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4qawT50C0k) (if you pay careful attention you'll even see a curvature in the images which is related to the curvature of the earth). I also provided a video of Electrical-Mass being multiplied by Acceleration and Distance to become a greater electric charge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szo63nfkMoE&feature=channel&list=UL). You can not rightfully say I asserted this since it's based on science. Gravity has the same effects as acceleration and I provided a video showing statistically gravity to be a pushing force (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lzd86ZYf_o&feature=related) via scientific experiments, so you can not rightfully say I asserted this since it's based on science. I provided undeniable mathematics which shows the expansion acceleration of earth at 9.801 m/s
2 is equal to the speed of light in more than one way, thus it shows Light to be stationary and we're undergoing expansion acceleration of space and matter, which is supportive scientific evidence of the two videos I presented for it. I provided more than one video in the form of scientific experiments showing the centripetal pressure within the universe along with undeniable mathematics to back it up. You can not rightfully say I asserted this since it's based on science and undeniable mathematics. I mathematically showed how the expansion acceleration of matter moving past stationary light gives matter it's mass. Undeniable mathematics. This unifies all of the fundamental forces of nature, including gravity and without the need for 'dark energy' or 'dark matter'. In light of this, you say I assert these things as facts. What I am saying is no different than 5 + 5 = 10. <-----Undeniable Mathematics and I also provided the same Undeniable Mathematics and scientific evidence in what I have been saying.
Gravock
111 pages now and STILL not a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of the imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend of the godtards... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 04:00:30 AM
Do you think your conscious is an 'imaginary' thing since it can't be measured like air?
Gravock
There are scientific discussions on this subject and I just cannot answer for this question, I just don't know the answer. Anyway, I never said that God does not exist because it's not measurable. I just said, it is not measurable, while air is. However, imaginary are some interpretations of God, i.e. the interpretation that it punishes and prizes people, etc.
https://www.google.com/search?q=IMaginary+consciousness&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Quote from: gravityblock on November 15, 2012, 08:01:26 PM
Through expansion acceleration. The objects expand into the stationary light, and the space between them also undergoes the same expansion acceleration, so we perceive no changes in our size and no changes in distance.
Gravock
This theory of stationary light has an interesting similarity with movement of charges in an electrolytic solution.
When a DC current is passed through an electrolytic solution, current flows from positive electrode to negative electrode within the solution without physical movement of ions. Which means that the electrical current here moves like a signal instead of physical movement of charges. (unlike a solid conductor in which electrons move physically for DC ). If you use a very strong electrolytic solution, the distance between two electrodes will not affect the transmission of this electrical signal even if the distance between electrodes is several kilometers. It implies that the electrical signal is transmitted just by the alignment of stationary charges. Does this have any analogy with transmission of stationary light in vaccum? (does light is transmitted as signal instead of physical movement of photons?)
How does an electrical current move between two electrodes within the electrolytic solution?
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 04:00:30 AM
Do you think your conscious is an 'imaginary' thing since it can't be measured like air?
Gravock
Now THAT made me laugh! I mentioned conscious long ago to them, but like 99% of what is mentioned, they ignore and glaze over it. They mustn't be allowed to become "uncomfortable" in their doubting. So any decent discussion is met with irrational cussing and attacks of the individual.
Good job Grav the Rock! LOL Keep at 'em!
Peace and blessing,
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 19, 2012, 02:36:03 PM
Now THAT made me laugh! I mentioned conscious long ago to them, but like 99% of what is mentioned, they ignore and glaze over it. They mustn't be allowed to become "uncomfortable" in their doubting. So any decent discussion is met with irrational cussing and attacks of the individual.
Good job Grav the Rock! LOL Keep at 'em!
Peace and blessing,
Bruce
Yes, until they are true to themselves, true to everyone else, and true to God, then they'll never see the Light of this world for what it truly 'IS'. They have inverted the Truth, and this inversion becomes their 'dark energy' and 'dark matter' (darkness). They think if they can't see something, or be able to devise a device which can measure it, then it must me 'imaginary'. So, according to them, something is 'imaginary' until they have the capabilities or knowledge to devise a device to measure it (this is an inversion of the Truth). They deny their own existence and the existence of God based on their inversion of the Truth.
John 1:4 says, "In him[Christ] was life, and that life was the light of men."
John 3:19 says, "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
John 8:12 says, When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
John 9:5 says, "While I am[Christ] in the world, I am the light of the world."
John 12:35 says, "Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going."
John 12:36 says, "Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them."
John 12:46 says, "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness."
1 John 1:6 says, "If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth."
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 03:23:56 PM
Yes, until they are true to themselves, true to everyone else, and true to God, then they'll never see the Light of this world for what it truly 'IS'. They have inverted the Truth, and this inversion becomes their 'dark energy' and 'dark matter' (darkness). They think if they can't see something, or be able to devise a device which can measure it, then it must me 'imaginary'. So, according to them, something is 'imaginary' until they have the capabilities or knowledge to devise a device to measure it (this is an inversion of the Truth). They deny their own existence and the existence of God based on their inversion of the Truth.
Gravock
Actually, there are not many of your "opponents" here that opposes the idea of God, we just don't buy your petty personal version of God.
We are here for one reason, to create a breach in your armor, and make a higher level of understanding seep inside your prison.
We are not here to kill your god, we are here to free your god, so that you will understand that you, and I and everything is God, unseparated. God is not there and we are here! There is no God poised somewhere aloft. God is everything. You are God. You are part of the very consciousness that creates reality, right here, right now. God is a live happening, and we, including every sentient being and every atom in universe, are that very happening.
So don't think we are here to disgrace you or fight you. Most of us opponents here are just concerned about the sad "true to the letter" mentality you seem to be imprisoned by. We just want you to take responsibility for your own state of mind.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 18, 2012, 10:02:59 PM
When are you going to stop half assing it and be true to yourself?
Gravock
When are you going to stop degrading the Universal Consciousness to your personal little god?
Or have your personal little god promised you a nice treat of having first row seats at your Doomsday, whatching all the rest of us sinners and unfaithful ones suffer?
I have to dissappoint you there, since there will be no biblical Doomsday. Sorry about that, but it's just not going to happen.
I really wonder why you believe in such a sick thing. Do you have a lot of anger against humanity trapped inside yourself? Does it make you feel a little better believing in the retaliation of your god?
Man, what makes you think I hate you guys? I'm just trying to tickle you enough to wake you up. And since you are getting upset, I have apparently succeded to reach past your thick armor.
And I will keep tickling you old fashioned stone statues until you get it, until you finally understand that something absolutely new is happening all around us. And it has nothing to do with your old scrolls, when you understand what I am trying to convey, you won't need those scrolls. No harm in keeping them, but you won't need them anymore.
There is a new spirituality evolving on earth right now. Far beyond the narrowminded old fashioned worship of a personal god who only favours you when doing what is written in some old scrolls. Don't you feel the foul smell reeking out of those old scrolls hypnotizing you?
Wake up to the wonders of the Here and Now. You don't need a fairy tale to make it through the day. It's all here, all around you in all its splendor. Mankind is in a great transition period, and the light actually seems to be the winner. Can't you feel the change? People all around us are starting to open up for this change to come, bit by bit gaining a deeper understanding about their roll in the responsibility for the shape of humanity and this planet.
You got nothing to lose but your head. ;)
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Gwandau
Time for Bible Study! The following is written by Clarance Larkin. No sense in me spending unending hours reinventing the wheel. I have studied out the creation story in detail and also in the Hebrew. It is a Sacred Cow to Christians, but most have not read the text in the Hebrew, nor even studied out the English translation.
Clarance Larken on the creation of the earth, and 7 day "restoration" of the earth!
"
I. THE CREATIVE AGES The Scriptures begin with the sublime declaration- "In the beginning God 'CREATED' the heaven and the earth." Gen. 1:1 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.1). As the word "heaven" is in the singular it will clarify matters to limit this creative act to our own planet, and the solar system to which it belongs, rather than to the whole of the starry spaces or universe. 1. THE ORIGINAL OR PRE-ADAMITE EARTH This creation was in the dateless past. It was not at the beginning of the first day as described in Gen. 1:3-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.3-5). The six days' work as described in Gen. 1:3-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.3-5) was the restoration of the earth (not the heavens or starry space), to its original condition before it was made 'formless and void, " and submerged in water and darkness. Peter speaks of it as the "World that then was, that being overflowed with water, perished." 2Pet. 3:5-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2Pet.%203.5-7). The manner of the "creation" of the Pre-Adamite Earth is not revealed in the Scriptures. They simply declare that-"In the BEGINNING GOD CREATED the heaven and the earth." We have to fall back then upon Science. Among the theories advanced for the origin of the Solar System of which our Earth is a part is- THE NEBULAR HYPOTHESIS In the year 1796 the astronomer La Place advanced the theory that the sun, planets and moons of our Solar System were once one vast spherical mass of nebulous or gaseous matter, out of which they have developed. He claimed that this mass of nebulous matter coming in contact with the cold of space began to contract, and in . contracting a rotary motion was set up around its center, and the more rapidly it cooled the faster it revolved, until it became flattened at the poles and protruded at the equator, until it more resembled two watch crystals placed edge to edge than it did a round ball. As the cooling progressed, and the rapidity of revolution increased, a ring of matter was detached from the edge of the watch-crystal shaped mass, which still continued to revolve around the parent mass, which parent mass as it cooled shrunk away from the ring, and that this process continued until a number of rings were thrown off, all revolving in the same direction within each other and around the central mass. These rings of matter as they separately condensed were broken into fragments, and some of the fragments were retarded and others accelerated until they coalesced and formed a globe which continued to revolve in the same direction, the outermost ring forming the planet Neptune and the innermost Mercury. The central mass of this nebulous matter, after the rings had been separated from the parent mass, is now our sun. The moons of the planets were formed in the same manner, they having been detached rings of matter circling around their respective planets. As an evidence of this we have the rings of Saturn, that doubtless in time will break up and form moons for that planet. Between Mars and Jupiter there seems to be a break in the series, which can only be accounted for by supposing that the Asteroids, which appear to be the fragments of a planet, and that all revolve around the sun in the same direction as the other planets, are the fragments of a nebulous ring that would have formed a planet if it had not been for the nearness of the immense planet Jupiter. The Creation Of The Earth If the sun and planets of our Solar System sprang from the same parent mass, they should be composed of the same chemical elements, first, would be in the most advanced stage, but we must not forget that the larger the mass the slower it cools, and therefore, if the Nebular Hypothesis is correct, Jupiter and Saturn must still be very hot, and not as far advanced and fit for habitation as the earth, and this we know to be the fact. Objection has been raised to the "Nebular Hypothesis" Theory on the basis that a "gaseous" nebula could not exist in the cold of space, and that the nebulous matter of the nebula is not gas, but meteoric luminous matter, made luminous by the collision of meteoric particles, and out of the union of these particles the. planets were formed. Another theory is that the planets have been formed by the union of smaller planetary bodies that were welded together by the immense heat generated by their impact upon each other. But each theory has its difficulties. A survey of the heavens reveals numerous "spiral nebula" that seem to be "Solar Systems" in the process of formation, but the invention of powerful telescopes has revealed that many of these nebula are not gaseous but clusters of stars. Nevertheless it has been shown that many of the nebula are gaseous, but it was not until May, 1914, that Dr. Slipher, of the Flagstaff Observatory, Arizona, by spectograms proved that the nebula in the Constellation of Virgo was revolving, this proving that the Nebular Hypothesis of La Place is not without foundation. The proofs of the Nebular Hypothesis are-(l) The orbits of the planets are nearly circular. (2) They revolve almost in the same plane as the sun's equator. (3) They all revolve around the sun in the same direction, which is also the direction of the sun's rotation. (4) They rotate on their own axis also, as far as known, in the same direction. (5) Their satellites or moons, with the exception of those of Uranus and Neptune, revolve in the same -direction as their planet. (6) The earth is still cooling, as is proved by its outer crust and internal fire that. finds vents in volcanoes, for when we examine a hot ball and find it warmer inside than out we know it is cooling off. The time was then when our earth was a globular mass of molten matter surrounded by an atmosphere of gaseous and metallic vapors. As the globular mass cooled off by radiation a thin crust of rocky formation was formed on its outer surface. This increased slowly in thickness, and as the interior mass shrunk in cooling the outer crust fell in or wrinkled, and was here and there by earthquake and volcanic action tilted out of the horizontal, and thus was formed the diverse stratification of the rocky foundation of the earth's surface. The cooling of the earth's surface and the formation of its rocky crust permitted its gaseous and metallic vaporous atmosphere to cool, and the metallic vapors condensed and were precipitated in the form of metallic rain upon the earth's crust, and, according to their specific gravity, they collected and distributed themselves in pockets and recesses of the earth's crust to be later by upheavals and changes in the earth's crust thrown to the surface for the use of man. In the course of time-and the formation of our Solar System took thousands upon thousands of years-the earth cooled off sufficiently to permit the oxygen and hydrogen in the atmosphere to form water, that fell in the form of rain on the earth, but like when water falls upon a red-hot plate it is immediately turned into steam, the first rain that fell was vaporized by the heat of the earth's crust, but, continuing to fall, it finally so cooled the earth's surface as to be able to remain and form seas and oceans. As time passed on the rocky surface of the earth was disintegrated and formed soil, and when the soil was fit, vegetation and trees and plant life appeared. Then came the lower orders of marine life, followed by fish and fowl. Then the land animals, and whatever other orders of beings that inhabited the original earth. That we may have a faint idea of the time it took for the earth to become habitable, we have only to turn to the Carboniferous Period of its history. Coal is formed from vegetable matter. In the Carboniferous Period the atmosphere was full of Carbonic Acid Gas, in which animal life could not exist. The atmosphere was Moist and steamy like that of a hothouse, and vegetation was very rank, and ferns and plant life grew to immense proportions. By atmospheric and earthquake action the immense forests of the Carboniferous Period were thrown down and buried under layers of soil and rock. until their vegetable matter was compressed into coal. This was repeated until coal bed after coal bed was formed in overlying seams. The time it took to form these beds of coal is seen when we learn that it would take 1200 years for the most luxuriant vegetation of the present day to form a coal seam 6 inches thick, or 7200 years to form a seam 3 feet thick, the thinnest that can be worked to advantage. In the coal measures of Nova Scotia are 76 seams of coal, of which one is 22 feet thick, and another 37. Thus we see that it took thousands of years to form the coal beds of the earth alone. How many millenniums of years must it not have required then for the earth to pass from a molten state to a habitable condition? But the "Word of God" and the "Works of God" must harmonize. There can be no conflict between the Bible and Science. Science demands thousands of years for the formation of the earth and all the time it demands is given to it in the sublime words of Gen. 1:1 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.1), "In the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth." This verse then covers the whole period of the formation of. the earth and its preparation for the habitation of man. The Egyptians, as Plato informs us, taught that the earth and the heavens originated out of a kind of pulp, and that men were generated from the slime of the river Nile. Other sages of Egypt held that the world was hatched from a winged egg. Now as Moses was "learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Acts%207.22)) how is it that he did not say that the heavens originated out of a kind of pulp, and that the world was hatched from a winged egg? Simply because God revealed to him, probably when he was up on the mount with God, just how the world was created. 2. THE CHAOTIC EARTH The creation of the "Original Earth" was in the dateless past. It was doubtless a most beautiful earth, covered with vegetation and inhabited with fish and fowl and animal life, and probably with human life. How long it continued in this condition we are not told, but an awful catastrophe befell it-it became "FORMLESS AND VOID, and submerged in water and darkness. Gen. 1:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.2). That it was not originally so we know from Isa. 45:18 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Isa.%2045.18) (R.V.). "Thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; he is God; that formed the earth and made it; He established it, He created it NOT A WASTE, he formed it to be inhabited." What caused the earth to become a "Waste" after its original creation is not clearly revealed. It is clear from the account of the Fall of Adam and Eve that sin existed before man was created. Generation The Six Days Of Re-Creation In that remarkable passage in Ez. 28:12-14 there is revealed to us under the title of "The King of Tyrus, " a being of surpassing beauty and wisdom, who had been in "Eden, " the "Garden of God." Not the Eden of Adam's day, but possibly the Eden of the Earth as it was first created. This being is spoken of as the "Anointed Cherub that Covereth, " who "walked upon the 'Holy Mountain of God', " and was "perfect in all his ways from the day that he was created until iniquity was found in him" As no King of Tyrus answering this description has, as yet, existed, this passage is taken to be a prophetic portrait of the "Antichrist, " and as Antichrist is to be an incarnation of Satan, it probably is a description of Satan before his fall. The intimation in this scripture then is, that Satan, with a host of angelic beings, was placed in charge of the original or primeval earth, and that he through pride (1Tim. 3:6 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/1Tim.%203.6); Isa. 14:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Isa.%2014.12-14)) sought to be equal with God, and that to punish him the earth was thrown into a chaotic state, and Satan and his angels, amounting to a third of the angelic hosts (Rev. 12:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rev.%2012.4)) were excluded from Heaven, and took up their abode in the heavenlies, the Second Heaven, located between the atmosphere of our earth and the Heaven where God dwells, and thus became the "Principalities and Powers, " and "Rulers of the Darkness of this Age, " and the "Spiritual Wickedness" in "High Places" (the Second Heaven), of whom we are warned in Eph. 6:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph.%206.12). This seems very plausible, for Satan is said to be the "Prince of the Powers of the Air" (Eph. 2:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph.%202.2)); and the "God of this World" (Age), and it looks as if his plan for the Fall of man was a scheme to regain control of this earth. If there were human beings on the Original or Pre-Adamite Earth, they were doubtless involved in Satan's fall and destroyed. In fact, the "demons" are believed by many to be the disembodied spirits of the inhabitants of the Pre-Adamite Earth, and their efforts to reembody themselves in human beings, as in the days of Christ, is looked upon as evidence that they once possessed bodies similar to human bodies. Naturally the question arises, "if the inhabitants of the Pre-Adamite Earth were human beings like ourselves, and were destroyed when the Pre-Adamite Earth was thrown into a chaotic form, where are their fossil remains; why have we not discovered them in the soil or rocks of the earth? " The answer is, their "bodies" may have been consumed by fire, as will be the case with the rebellious hosts of Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:7-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rev.%2020.7-9)), and their escaping "spirits" became the demons referred to above. It is clear that the "demons" are not Satan's angels, for they are free, while the demons are confined in the Bottomless Pit and are only given liberty as it suits God's purpose. Rev. 9:1-3 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rev.%209.1-3). Neither are they the "Fallen Angels" of 2Pet. 2:4 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2Pet.%202.4), and Jude 6-7 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Jude%206-7), for they are reserved in chains under darkness against the judgment of the Great Day. The "demons" then are in a class by themselves and for aught we know shall never be different. What we do know in reference to them is that the time is coming when they are to suffer "torment." Matt. 8:29 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Matt.%208.29). If death reigned on the Pre-Adamite Earth, and the bodies of the Pre-Adamites were buried in the earth, they may still remain buried in that part of the earth which they occupied, which now may be the bed of the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean. If this be so, it helps to explain the Scripture passage which reads-"And the SEA gave up the dead which were in it; and 'Death' and 'Hell' (Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to his works." Rev. 20:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rev.%2020.13). Here we have the "SEA" differentiates from "DEATH, " (the Grave), which swallows up the body, and "HELL' or "HADES, " the abode of the soul between death and the resurrection, and this seems to imply that the "DEAD OF THE SEA" are a different class from mankind and may refer to the dead of the Pre-Adamite World as now resting at the bottom of the sea. As God's creatures are to be judged each in his own order, it would seem no more than right that the dead of the Pre-Adamite World should be judged before the wicked dead of this present world. The manner in which the Pre-Adamite Earth was made "formless -and void, " and this refers only to the exterior surface, the habitableness of the earth, is clearly revealed by Peter, where he says "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, BEING OVERFLOWED WITH WATER, perished" I1Pet. 3:5-6 It is clear that Peter does not refer here to Noah's Flood, for the world of Noah's day did not perish, and Peter goes on to add that- "The heavens and the earth which are now (that is, have been in existence since the restoration of the earth of Gen. 1:3-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.3-5)), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (Great White Throne judgment)." Rev. 20:11-13 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rev.%2020.11-13). The manner then in which the Pre-Adamite Earth was made "formless and void" was by WATER. The water which lies upon the surface of the earth is about 1/4950 part of the earth's mass. If the land surface was even the water would cover it to the depth of 11 miles. Violent convulsions must have wrecked the Pre-Adamite Earth and covered its surface with the waters of its oceans. Not a living creature remained alive upon it, and its atmosphere of murky darkness hid the light of the sun, moon and stars. To all intents and purposes it was a dead planet, though the seeds of its vegetable life remained entombed in its bosom ready to spring into resurrection life on the "Third Day." The absence of the warm rays of the sun caused the earth to pass through the "Winter" of its life, and the submerging waters were congealed into ice that preserved in "COLD STORAGE" the remains of immense quadrupeds and win ed creatures, that we might know the kind of animal life that inhabited the Pre-Adamite Earth. This was probably the Glacial Period of Geologic times. The Prophet Jeremiah records a vision of the time. "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was WITHOUT FORM AND VOID; and the heavens, and they had NO LIGHT. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they TREMBLED, and all the hills MOVED LIGHTLY. I beheld, and, lo, there war, NO MAN, and all the BIRDS OF THE HEAVENS WERE FLED. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a WILDERNESS and all the CITIES thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger." Jer. 4:23-25 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Jer.%204.23-25). If this was, as it appears, an account of the destruction of the Pre-Adamite Earth, then the Pre-Adamite Earth was inhabited, and its inhabitants dwelt in cities, and God's purpose in destroying the Pre-Adamite Earth was to efface all historic monuments and evidences of the sinfulness of its occupants. How long a period elapsed between the creation of the earth and its becoming "formless and void" we do nor know; neither do we know how long it continued in that condition, but when the time came in the purpose of God to restore the earth to its habitable state, and make it fit for the abode of man, He did it in six periods of longer or shorter duration. The Hebrew word translated "day" may mean either a day of 24 hours or a longer period of time. The probability is that the time was short. 3. THE PRESENT EARTH The six days' work as described in Gen. 1:3-5 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.3-5) is not a description of how God made the Original earth, but bow He restored It from its "formless and void" condition to its present state. if the Flood of Noah's day was only local and affected only that section of the world, then the geography of the restored earth was probably the same as that of the earth today. THE SEVEN DAYS OF THE RESTORATION WORK Era of Matter 1. WORK, COSMIC LIGHT
2. WORK, READJUSTMENT OF THE ATMOSPHERE
3. WORK, VEGETATION REAPPEAR WORK, DRY LAND REAPPEARS Era of Life 4. WORK, SOLAR LIGHT RESTORED
5. WORK, CREATION OF FISH AND FOWL
6. WORK, CREATION OF LAND ANIMAL
WORK, CREATION OF MAN
7. NO WORK, THE SABBATH THE FIRST DAY
Gen. 1:2-4 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.2-4) "And the Spirit of God moved (brooded) upon the face of the waters. And God said, LET THERE BE LIGHT: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And the evening and the morning were the 'First day'." When the times came to restore the earth to a habitable condition, God began by reversing the process He took to make it uninhabitable. The Spirit of God "brooded" over the watery waste, and God said- "LET THERE BE LIGHT." God did not create the light, the word for create is not used. God simply said-"Let there be light, " just as one might say-"Turn on the light." This light was not sunlight, for the clouds did not break away and permit the Sun to shine on the earth. That did not happen until the "Fourth Day." The light was doubtless "Electric Light, " similar to the Aurora Borealis or North Lights, for we now know that Electricity is one of the primary forces and has always been in the atmosphere, although we have only in recent times learned how to harness it and compel it to light our cities. The incandescence of the atmosphere, and it doubtless was very strong and brilliant, generated a vast amount of heat that melted the icy covering of the earth and formed water, that, being evaporated, formed vaporous clouds that prepared the way for the work of the "Second Day." The change from "Darkness" to "Light" caused God to call the "Darkness" NIGHT and the "Light" DAY. Thus the earth passed out of the "Night" of its history into the brightness of its "Resurrection Day, " and as each day's work was an advance on the previous day's work, each day begins with an evening and ends with a morning. THE SECOND DAY Gen. 1:6-8 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.6-8) "And God said, Let there be a FIRMAMENT in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the Firmament, and divided the waters which were under the Firmament from the waters which were above the Firmament: and it was so. And God called the Firmament HEAVEN. And the evening and the morning were the 'Second Day'." The fact that the "Firmament" is called "Heaven, " and by the word Heaven we are to understand our Atmosphere, implies that the "Chaotic Earth" either had no atmosphere, or that it was not adapted to the formation of clouds, that in the form of vapor, would support water, and thus divide or separate the waters in the atmosphere from the waters on the earth. The Second Day's work then was the "Readjustment of the Atmosphere" to the needs of the present earth, and its evening and morning made up the "Second Day." It is worthy of note that the words-"And God saw that it was GOOD, " are not spoken of this Day's work, as it is spoken of the other days' work. This may not be without significance, for we read in Eph. 2:2 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph.%202.2) of the "Powers of the AIR, " over whom Satan is the Prince, and it may have been that as soon as the atmosphere of the earth again became habitable that the "Powers of Evil, " (Eph. 6:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph.%206.12)), with Satan as their leader, swarmed into it, with the intention of making it their habitation, and so God could not say of the Firmament or Atmosphere that it was "good." THE THIRD DAY The work of the "Third Day" was twofold, the emergence of the land from the sea, and the reappearance of vegetable life. FIRST WORK
Gen. 1:9-10 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.9-10) "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land EARTH; and the gathering together of the waters called He SEAS: and God saw that it was good." This is simply a reversal of the cataclysmic convulsions that submerged the Pre-Adamite Earth, and by upheaval caused the earth to emerge from its "Watery Grave." SECOND WORK
Gen. 1:11-13 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.11-13) "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit AFTER HIS KIND, whose seed is in itself UPON THE EARTH: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the 'Third Day." This was not a new creation but a RESURRECTION. The earth rises up out of the "Waters of Death, " and seeds, and the roots of plants and herbs and trees are called upon to germinate and sprout and grow as they did before the catastrophe that submerged the Pre-Adamite Earth. If that catastrophe was what we know as the "Glacial Period, " the resurrection of plant life no more required a "creative act" than vegetation does in the spring of the year after the winter is over. That this was the case seems clear from the expression, "Whose seed is in itself, UPON THE EARTH." That is, the seed was already in the earth, having been buried by the waters that swept over the Pre-Adamite Earth, and, being indestructible, it only needed the proper conditions to spring up and cover the earth with verdure. This reveals the fact that the Pre-Adamite Earth was clothed with verdure, and covered with plants and trees like those of our present earth. THE FOURTH DAY
Gen. 1:14-16 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.14-16) "And God said, Let there be 'LIGHTS' in the Firmament of the heaven to divide the Day from the Night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years; and let them be for LIGHTS in the Firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made TWO GREAT LIGHTS; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. And God set them in the Firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the 'Fourth Day'." The appearance of the sun and the moon on the Fourth day was not a new creation. They had existed in connection with the Pre-Adamite Earth and bad not been destroyed when it was made waste- The words translated "made" in the 16th verse is not the same word as is translated "created" in verse one, and does not imply a "creative" act. What is meant is that the clouds broke away and permitted the sun and moon to be seen, and that from that time they were appointed to measure the days, and years, and seasons as we have them today. In other words, on the Fourth day "Time" in contrast with "Eternity" began. THE FIFTH DAY
Gen. 1:20-22 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.20-22) "And God said, Let the WATERS BRING FORTH ABUNDANTLY THE MOVING CREATURE THAT HATH LIFE, AND FOWL THAT MAY FLY ABOVE THE EARTH IN THE OPEN FIRMAMENT OF HEAVEN. And God CREATED (Bara) great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, AFTER THEIR KIND, and every winged fowl AFTER HIS KIND; and God saw that it was good. 'And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters of the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the 'Fifth Day'." The work of the "Fifth Day" was the CREATION of fish and fowl. Here is the first time we come across the word "CREATE" since we read of the original creation of the earth in verse one. This shows that all animal life was destroyed in the catastrophe that overtook the Pre-Adamite Earth. The fish and fowl that were created on the "Fifth Day" were the same that we have today. The fossil remains of huge marine animals and gigantic birds belong to the PreAdamite Earth. THE SIXTH DAY The creative work of the "Sixth Day" was twofold, that of land animals and of man. FIRST WORK
Gen. 1:24-25 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.24-25) "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the LIVING CREATURE AFTER HIS KIND, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth AFTER HIS KIND; and it was so. And God made (created) the beast of the earth AFTER HIS KIND, and cattle AFTER THEIR KIND, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth AFTER HIS KIND; and God saw that it was good." These land animals were doubtless the same kind as we have today. The fact that they were created, "AFTER THEIR KIND, " which is 5 times repeated, shows that they were not "evolved" from one common specie. That all the different species of animals were created "separately" is proven from the fact that when species are crossed their offspring are sterile. The crossing of the jackass and a mare is the mule, and a mule is a hybrid and is sterile. If the "Evolutionary Theory" of the development of animal and vegetable life was true, we should expect to find evidence to that effect in fossil remains of the intermediate links, and we should also see "evolutionary processes" at work now whereby higher orders of animal and plant life are coming into being. But we see nothing of the kind. Animal and plant life exists today in the same form that it had excited in the knowledge of man. The birds build their nests and raise their young as they always did. The beaver builds his dam, and the bee constructs his honeycomb as they have always done. Man alone, has the faculty of improving his mode of construction. This is seen in the development of farming instruments from the crude plow a winnowing fan to the complex plow and cultivator and the combined reaper, binder, and thresher. But here we can trace the steps by the obsolete specimens of farming implements. This is not true in the animal and vegetable kingdoms, for there we find no intermediary links. If the Evolutionary Theory is correct, it should apply, to man as well as animals, and we should see by the crossing of the best specimens of the human race the evolution of a SUPERMAN but the history of the race disproves this. SECOND WORK
Gen. 1:26-28 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.26-28) "And God said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God CREATED (Bara) man in His OWN IMAGE, in the IMAGE OF GOD CREATED (Bara) He him; male and female created He them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and REPLENISH THE EARTH, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." That man also was "CREATED" (Bara) shows that he has not descended from an ape. Man was made in the "IMAGE OF GOD not in the image of an "Ape, " and was not formed from a brute, . of the "Dust of the Earth." There is an "Impassable Gulf" between the lowest order of man and the highest type of beast that science has failed to bridge. The "Missing Link" has never been found. That the whole human race is of "One specie" and had a common origin (Acts 17:26 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Acts%2017.26)) is clear from the fact that, when races of the earth's inhabitants marry, their offspring are not sterile but fertile. This nullifies the argument that the white races are of different origin, and that the white race alone is the Adamic race. There is no contradiction between the first and second of Genesis as to the creation of man. The first chapter (Gen. 1:26-28 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.26-28)) gives the FACT of his creation, the second, the MANNER OF IT. Gen. 2:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%202.7). One is supplementary to the other. In chapter one God is spoken of as "ELOHIM, " the Creator; in chapter two, He is called "JEHOVAH" (The Lord) because He there enters into covenant relations with man. At first the name "Jehovah" is joined with "Elohim" to remove all doubt as to the identity of the Being designated by the compound word. Now while either of these names would suit some passages, in others one would be more suitable than the other. This accounts for the discriminating use of these two names by the sacred writers, and is an answer to those critics who claim that the Scriptures are a clumsy compilation of incongruous and diverse documents which they call Elohistic and Jehovistic. In Gen. 2:7 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%202.7) we are told that– "The LORD God formed (Yatsar, fashioned) man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the 'Breath of Life; ' and man became a living soul." This may mean that the Lord God, fashioned man out of the "dust of the ground" as a sculptor fashions the statue out of clay, and then breathed into the earthy form the "Breath of Life." However it was done we know the work was threefold: 1. The formation of the "BODY"--"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground."
2. The gift of the "SPIRIT"-"And breathed into his nostrils the 'Breath of Life'." By this is not meant the "Holy Spirit, " but the "Spirit" of the "natural man"-that part of man that must be indwelt by the Holy Spirit before he can. be born again. It is the "God Conscious" nature of man. 3. The SOULISH part of man-"And man became a 'Living Soul'." This is the seat of the "Self-Conscious" nature, of memory, the affections, etc. The two principal parts of man are the BODY and the SPIRIT, but as the functions of these are separate, one being physical and the other spiritual, a third part had to be supplied called the SOUL, intermediate between them, and through which they may communicate. Thus man became a-"Threefold Being." 1Thes. 5:23 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/1Thes.%205.23). Heb. 4:12 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Heb.%204.12). See the Chapter on "The Spirit World." Section, "The Threefold Nature of Man." In Adam, as originally created, the Soul was such a perfect medium of communication between the Body and the Spirit that there was no conflict between them. The three blended together in one harmonious whole. When man fell the soul became the "battlefield" of the Body and the Spirit, and the conflict began that Paul so graphically describes in Rom. 7:7-9 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Rom.%207.7-9). Eve was not fashioned in the same way as Adam. She was made" sometime later. Adam had not found among all the creatures God had made a suitable companion, and God saw that it was not good for him to be alone, so He proceeded to make him an "helpmeet." To this end "The Lord God caused a 'deep sleep' to fall upon Adam and he slept; and He took one of his 'RIBS, ' and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the 'RIB, ' which the Lord God had taken from man, made (builded) He a WOMAN, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called WOMAN, because she was taken OUT OF MAN." Gen. 2:21-23 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%202.21-23). While Adam and Eve were not both fashioned in the same way they were not evolved from some lower creature, but were direct creations of God, "male and female created He them." Gen. 1:27 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.27). The reason why Eve was not fashioned separately from Adam, but was taken out of Adam's side, was to show that in their relation to each other as man and wife they were to be ONE FLESH. That's their interests and sympathies, etc., were to be one, and physically they were to be counterparts of each 'Other. Adam and Eve in their physical relation to each other are a type of Christ and the Church. When Eve was presented to Adam he said-"This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; " and the Apostle Paul in speaking of the Church says "'we are members of His BODY, and of His FLESH, and of His BONES. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great 'mystery; ' but I speak concerning Christ and the Church." Eph. 5:30-32 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph.%205.30-32). Adam was not created a baby or a primitive savage, but a full-grown man perfect in intellect and knowledge, else he could not have named the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air. And the fact that his descendants had such skill in the invention of musical instruments and mechanical devices and could build cities and towers and such a vessel as the Ark, proves that the men of Antediluvian times were men of gigantic intellect and attainments, and that instead of man having "evolved upward" he has "degenerated downward." We see from Gen. 1:29-30 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.29-30), that animals and man were originally given only vegetable food, and that it was not until after the Fall that animals became carnivorous. And it was not until after the Flood that man was permitted to eat "flesh." "Every moving thing that liveth (animals) shall be meat for you; even as the green herb (.which had been their food) have I given you all things. But 'flesh' with the life thereof, which is the BLOOD THEREOF, shall ye not eat." Gen. 9:3-4 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%209.3-4). That is, that in eating "flesh" they must first drain the "blood" from it, because the "blood" is the LIFE of the animal. It was not until after the Exodus, when the Law was given from Mt. Sinai, that God's chosen people the Jews were restricted as to the kind of creeping things, flying fowl, and beasts they should eat. Lev. 11:1-3 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Lev.%2011.1-3). Note that all that God created was GOOD. "And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold it was VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the Sixth Day." Gen. 1:31 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%201.31). God is not the author of evil. Evil is the fruit of sin and disobedience. Thorns, thistles, poisonous vines, weeds, noxious beasts, as the serpent, are all the results of sin. Thus the heaven and the earth were restored and repopulated during the six days or periods of the "Restoration Week." The Bible and Science are in exact accord as to the order of the 8 works of the Restoration Week. The following Diagram shows how these 8 works could be arranged in a different order 40, 320 times (1x 2x 3x 4x 5x 6x 7x 8 = 40, 320) without any two lines being alike. Surely Moses must have been inspired, for there was only ONE chance in 40, 320, that he would have recorded them in the order that science claims they occurred. This is one of the proofs of the Divine Inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. SEVENTH DAY
Gen. 2:2-3 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Gen.%202.2-3). "And on the 'Seventh Day' God ended His work which He had made; and He RESTED on the Seventh Day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the 'Seventh Day, ' and SANCTIFIED IT; because that in it He had RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK which God created and made." By God here is meant God in His Triune capacity, for, as has been well said, God the FATHER created the matter, God the SON took the matter and made the worlds and all that exists upon them, and then God the HOLY SPIRIT breathed the "Breath of Life" into the things that have life. John 1:1-3 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/John%201.1-3). Eph. 3:9 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Eph.%203.9). Col. 1:12-14 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Col.%201.12-14). God rested because His work was finished. That is the only justifiable reason for resting. God rested because His work was not only finished but was GOOD. There could be no reflection upon it. But when God's perfect work was marred by sin, by the "Fall of Man, " His "Sabbath Rest" was broken. As soon as man fell it was necessary for God to resume His work, this time not to continue the creation of material things, but for the purpose of the redemption of man that he might become a "NEW CREATION" in Christ Jesus. 2Cor. 5:17 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/2Cor.%205.17). So Jesus in explaining His mission said– "My Father worketh hitherto (in creation), and I work (now in REDEMPTION)." John 5:17 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/John%205.17) Diagram Of The Eight Works Of The Six Days" (Posted Below)
Walking with Jesus,
Bruce
Bruce,
That was the most stupid story I have ever read.
Are we in kindergarten now, or what?
Only very small kids or mentally retarded people would buy this bull, and I guess you must have gotten this story with your meal as child, since you are not retarded.
I wonder what makes you true to the letter guys like this story?
Does it feel safe and cosy to have a personal god taking care of you? I bet it does. And also, to be relieved of ones responsibility as long as you do as told, how assuring it is and how safe, isn't it?
"At last no more questions about why we are here", says the true to the letter believer, who hates uncertainty.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 19, 2012, 05:37:49 PM
Actually, there are not many of your "opponents" here that opposes the idea of God, we just don't buy your petty personal version of God.
We are here for one reason, to create a breach in your armor, and make a higher level of understanding seep inside your prison.
......
...........
...............
Gwandau
Yhea, I know your reason for being here as is shown by God's Word. And you proved this for us once again, by your own words. You speak as if you are the speaker for the adversary of God. You can not create a breach in my armor, because I have put on the full armor of God as it says in Ephesians 6:10-18 below.
10"Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes.
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place,
15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.
16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord's people."
gwandau,
You have allowed a lower level of understanding to completely fill and to fully consume the prison in which you placed yourself into.
Revelation 18:4 says, "Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you don't participate in her sins and also suffer from her diseases."
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 04:00:30 AM
Do you think your conscious is an 'imaginary' thing since it can't be measured like air?
Gravock
Do you think some animals have a conscious or only humans?
Quote from: scratchrobot on November 19, 2012, 07:40:32 PM
Do you think some animals have a conscious or only humans?
They are conscious and are much more aware of God and His creation than gwandau and his blind followers.
Gravock
gwandau and his team of blind followers (http://www.machinery4change.org/Gwandau.html) will never again ascend into the heavens. God has said, that on the earth He will bind you, as long as the world endures.
Enoch 14: 1 This is the book of the words of righteousness, and of the reproof of the Watchers, who belong to the world, according to that which He, who is holy and great, commanded in the vision. I perceived in my dream, that I was now speaking with a tongue of flesh, and with my breath, which the Mighty One has put into the mouth of men, that they might converse with it. 2 And understand with the heart. As he has created and given to men the power of comprehending the word of understanding, so has he created and given to me the power of reproving the Watchers, the offspring of heaven. I have written your petition; and in my vision it has been shown me, that what you request will not be granted you as long as the world endures. 3 Judgment has been passed upon you: your request will not be granted you. 4 From this time forward, never shall you ascend into heaven; He[God] has said, that on the earth He will bind you, as long as the world endures. 5 But before these things you shall behold the destruction of your beloved sons; you shall not possess them, but they shall fall before you by the sword. 6 Neither shall you entreat for them, not for yourselves; 7 But you shall weep and supplicate in silence. The words of the book which I wrote.
Gravock
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 19, 2012, 07:50:19 AM
111 pages now and STILL not a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence and/or a logical proof for the existence of the imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend of the godtards... ::)
What kind of mustard are you?!, >:(
Am i going to repeat again like what you are doing or you really don't understand!!!. >:( >:( >:(
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 07:48:53 PM
They are conscious and are much more aware of God and His creation than gwandau and his blind followers.
Gravock
You think a fly has a conscious?
Do you need to have a conscious to go to heaven or hell?
Quote from: Gwandau on November 19, 2012, 05:37:49 PM
Actually, there are not many of your "opponents" here that opposes the idea of God, we just don't buy your petty personal version of God.
We are here for one reason, to create a breach in your armor, and make a higher level of understanding seep inside your prison.
We are not here to kill your god, we are here to free your god, so that you will understand that you, and I and everything is God, unseparated.
God is not there and we are here! There is no God poised somewhere aloft. God is everything. You are God. You are part of the very consciousness that creates reality, right here, right now. God is a live happening, and we, including every sentient being and every atom in universe, are that very happening.
So don't think we are here to disgrace you or fight you. Most of us opponents here are just concerned about the sad "true to the letter" mentality you seem to be imprisoned by. We just want you to take responsibility for your own state of mind.
When are you going to stop degrading the Universal Consciousness to your personal little god?
Or have your personal little god promised you a nice treat of having first row seats at your Doomsday, whatching all the rest of us sinners and unfaithful ones suffer?
I have to dissappoint you there, since there will be no biblical Doomsday. Sorry about that, but it's just not going to happen.
I really wonder why you believe in such a sick thing. Do you have a lot of anger against humanity trapped inside yourself? Does it make you feel a little better believing in the retaliation of your god?
Man, what makes you think I hate you guys? I'm just trying to tickle you enough to wake you up. And since you are getting upset, I have apparently succeded to reach past your thick armor.
And I will keep tickling you old fashioned stone statues until you get it, until you finally understand that something absolutely new is happening all around us. And it has nothing to do with your old scrolls, when you understand what I am trying to convey, you won't need those scrolls. No harm in keeping them, but you won't need them anymore.
There is a new spirituality evolving on earth right now. Far beyond the narrowminded old fashioned worship of a personal god who only favours you when doing what is written in some old scrolls. Don't you feel the foul smell reeking out of those old scrolls hypnotizing you?
Wake up to the wonders of the Here and Now. You don't need a fairy tale to make it through the day. It's all here, all around you in all its splendor. Mankind is in a great transition period, and the light actually seems to be the winner. Can't you feel the change? People all around us are starting to open up for this change to come, bit by bit gaining a deeper understanding about their roll in the responsibility for the shape of humanity and this planet.
You got nothing to lose but your head. ;)
Peace, Love and Understanding,
Gwandau
Wow. Is this what the world is coming to? People like you, running around trying to fix us? Who asked for your help???? ???
Or are you 'imposing' your so called help on us because we cannot function in society the way you see fit? Well tough cookies. You will never get me to follow your bologna. :P
"God is not there and we are here! There is no God poised somewhere aloft. God is everything. You are God."
There ya go, singing the devils song again. ::) And you are a fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 06:21:17 PM
You can not create a breach in my armor, because I have put on the full armor of God as it says in Ephesians 6:10-18 below.
If you had been able to know the reason for my being here, you would not have been hiding behind all that dark medieval armor, you would have been embracing the new transition of the human spirit.
Unfortunately, behind all that armor life cannot reach you, my friend. You will be one of those poor ones missing out on the whole thing, waiting in vain for your Doomsday to come. What a pity to be left behind when all the new is dawning upon us.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 06:21:17 PM
You speak as if you are the speaker for the adversary of God.
I speak as the adversary of ignorance. What I ask of you is not to leave your god, only to let your god out of the prison that you have built with the letters in the scrolls. I want you to realize that you are degrading the full potential of the Universal Consciousness into some personal little god fitting your delusions. If you could see yourself sitting behind all those walls (scrolls), you would not know if to laugh or to cry.
I am free as the birds in the sky. God is everywhere. I am God, You are God, every little grain of sand is God. Good or bad, high or low, all is God. We are all participating in a grand live happening called life. Celebrate! Rejoice!
Love, Peace and Understanding
Gwandau
Quote from: scratchrobot on November 19, 2012, 08:13:29 PM
You think a fly has a conscious?
Do you need to have a conscious to go to heaven or hell?
You don't understand. God's Nature has been bearing our sin. Through our disobedience to God, He has made garments of skin (flesh) for our spiritual bodies and for the nature or environment which was a helper or comforter for our spiritual body. Nature didn't sin against God, so there can be no hell for nature. However, nature will be returned to her former state of being as she was first created, so she can once again be a helper or comforter for the spiritual 'Adam' as he was first created.
Gravock
Quote from: Gwandau on November 19, 2012, 08:27:50 PM
If you had been able to know the reason for my being here, you would not have been hiding behind all that dark medieval armor, you would have been embracing the new transition of the human spirit.
Unfortunately, behind all that armor life cannot reach you, my friend. You will be one of those poor ones missing out on the whole thing, waiting in vain for your Doomsday to come. What a pity to be left behind when all the new is dawning upon us.
I speak as the adversary of ignorance. What I ask of you is not to leave your god, only to let your god out of the prison that you have built with the letters in the scrolls. I want you to realize that you are degrading the full potential of the Universal Consciousness into some personal little god fitting your delusions. If you could see yourself sitting behind all those walls (scrolls), you would not know if to laugh or to cry.
I am free as the birds in the sky. God is everywhere. I am God, You are God, every little grain of sand is God. Good or bad, high or low, all is God. We are all participating in a grand live happening called life. Celebrate! Rejoice!
Love, Peace and Understanding
Gwandau
You endeavor to reach the heavens again so you can escape the destruction of your beloved sons [evil doers]. This is your Doomsday and not mine. You have once again inverted the Truth. You are speaking against yourself by saying 'you speak as the adversary of ignorance'. You have once again inverted the Truth.
Enoch 14:
5 But before these things you shall behold the destruction of your beloved sons; you shall not possess them, but they shall fall before you by the sword.
6 Neither shall you entreat for them, not for yourselves;
7 But you shall weep and supplicate in silence. The words of the book which I wrote.
Gravock
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 08:16:10 PM
Wow. Is this what the world is coming to? People like you, running around trying to fix us? Who asked for your help? ??? ???
Or are you 'imposing' your so called help on us because we cannot function in society the way you see fit? Well tough cookies. You will never get me to follow your bologna. :P
"God is not there and we are here! There is no God poised somewhere aloft. God is everything. You are God."
There ya go, singing the devils song again. ::) And you are a fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
I would never call anyone a fool, my friend.
Remember, there is always a higher level making us fools wherever we stand.
I may be rude somtimes in order to get through, but I always focus my criticism upon the ignorant behaviour, never upon the person itself.
And I do not doubt your functioning in society. I am most certain you lead some nice and respectable lifes with many friends and much to share.
My reason for being here is not to degrade anyone, but it is very easy to be regarded as patronizing when presenting an outlook that threatens ones worldview.
The reason for my tickeling you guys is to add something to your dimension, not to take anything away.
Rigid minds triggers my compassion, can't help it.
Don't be afraid, you got nothing to lose but your head. ;)
Peace, Love, and Understanding
Gwandau
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 08:06:58 PM
gwandau and his team of blind followers (http://www.machinery4change.org/Gwandau.html) will never again ascend into the heavens.
Gravock
In fairness, you must admit that when you talk about blind followers, it is the faithers who fall into this group, not the atheists. We atheists are ready to believe whatever the evidence presents us. Not so with the faithers.
Honestly, can you answer this. Is there any evidence, if presented, that would convince you that there was no god? If not, there is no point even having this discussion.
As for me, if God came down in grand Jesus form, did whatever godly things god does, walked on water, turned water to wine, made limbs regrow, rose the dead, etc., I would be on my knees and believing.
Quote from: Gwandau on November 19, 2012, 08:59:58 PM
....
........
Don't be afraid, you got nothing to lose but your head. ;)
Peace, Love, and Understanding
Gwandau
The scripture says you will come in a false peace, and this is evidence by you saying,
'don't be afraid, you got nothing to lose but your head'. You have inverted peace, love, and understanding. You have inverted all Truths.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 08:38:47 PM
You don't understand. God's Nature has been bearing our sin. Through our disobedience to God, He has made garments of skin (flesh) for our spiritual bodies and for the nature or environment which was a helper or comforter for our spiritual body. Nature didn't sin against God, so there can be no hell for nature. However, nature will be returned to her former state of being as she was first created, so she can once again be a helper or comforter for the spiritual 'Adam' as he was first created.
Gravock
You are right, i don't understand, i asked about conscious but now you talk about spiritual bodies. So if i understand correct only humans have spiritual bodies and the rest of nature is for our comfort. Please tell me what sin i did against God? Or do i have to pay for your sins?
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 09:11:07 PM
The scripture says you will come in a false peace, and this is evidence by you saying, 'you got nothing to lose but your head'. You have inverted peace, love, and understanding. You have inverted all Truths.
Gravock
You are quite amusing. It's actually like you really believe I am your biblical adversay. Seems I am reaching through some layers of your defence here, since you are reacting by taking such a dire stance. ;D
By saying "Nothing to lose but your head", I am just asking you to quít the intellectual bullshit and embrace reality, the Here and Now.
To be trapped in the intellect is the worst of fates, and the one who brags about his big intellect is like a prisoner who brags about his big cell.
Throw away your armors and open up for life itself, whisk away all dogmas and all rigidity and run out on the meadow and dance like a child!
That's what life is all about. To rejoice, to love, to laugh and to dance! To find ones way back to the free spirit of the child.
Peace, Love and Understanding
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 19, 2012, 09:30:26 PM
You are quite amusing. It's actually like you really believe I am your biblical adversay. Seems I am reaching through some layers of your defence here, since you are reacting by taking such a dire stance.
Gwandau
You have shown who you think you are by the name of gwandau. It's actually you, who has made yourself the biblical adversary of God, and not me. Once again you have inverted the Truth. He has inverted the letters in 'gwandau'. He inverted the 'n' and the 'u' which says, 'gwaudan' to mimic the sound of "God" and "garden". He also inverted the 'w' which would then say a "man". Then if you throw out the first and last letters of 'gwandau', to represent the beginning and the end, you then have an inverted and reversed sound of 'aduam' to mimic the sound of "Adam". Thus, he is saying the serpent ['gwandau'] was in the form of God inside the garden of eden to deceive Adam. Then there is 7 letters in 'gwandau' to represent perfection which he has inverted. You have inverted all Truths.
Gravock
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 19, 2012, 05:48:14 PM
... ...
I don't understand: why some guys insist on copying the whole Bible into this forum. Isn't better to reasonably argue? Some examples here:
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-contradictions
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#good_to_all (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#good_to_all)
http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/biblequotes.htm (http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/biblequotes.htm)
Bruce, Magluvin, Ramset, Tito and all other believers of God:
We have shown them the errors of their ways. It's now time to leave them to their own wicked vices. Let them fight amongst themselves and devour each other.
Gravock
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 10:29:40 PM
Bruce, Magluvin, Ramset, Tito and all other believers of God:
We have shown them the errors of their ways. It's now time to leave them to their own wicked vices. Let them fight amongst themselves and devour each other.
Gravock
Right. At long last.
Quote from: Gwandau on November 19, 2012, 09:30:26 PM
You are quite amusing. It's actually like you really believe I am your biblical adversay. Seems I am reaching through some layers of your defence here, since you are reacting by taking such a dire stance. ;D
By saying "Nothing to lose but your head", I am just asking you to quít the intellectual bullshit and embrace reality, the Here and Now.
To be trapped in the intellect is the worst of fates, and the one who brags about his big intellect is like a prisoner who brags about his big cell.
Throw away your armors and open up for life itself, whisk away all dogmas and all rigidity and run out on the meadow and dance like a child!
That's what life is all about. To rejoice, to love, to laugh and to dance! To find ones way back to the free spirit of the child.
Peace, Love and Understanding
Gwandau
No time to dance we have to pay for our sins don't you get it. God send his son to this earth but we killed him and now we have to pay.
Armors are made to kill the non believers so this world can be paradise again. Don't think for yourself but read the truth in the book.
Maybe God has to give Adam a smaller brain next time so we don't fuck up again.
113 pages now without a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of this imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend the godtards keep talking about... ::)
you godtards need to stop breeding.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 09:35:25 PM
You have shown who you think you are by the name of gwandau. It's actually you, who has made yourself the biblical adversary of God, and not me. Once again you have inverted the Truth. He has inverted the letters in 'gwandau'. He inverted the 'n' and the 'u' which says, 'gwaudan' to mimic the sound of "God" and "garden". He also inverted the 'w' which would then say a "man". Then if you throw out the first and last letters of 'gwandau', to represent the beginning and the end, you then have an inverted and reversed sound of 'aduam' to mimic the sound of "Adam". Thus, he is saying the serpent ['gwandau'] was in the form of God inside the garden of eden to deceive Adam. Then there is 7 letters in 'gwandau' to represent perfection which he has inverted. You have inverted all Truths.
Gravock
and you're fucking certifiable... go seek professional help before you end up hurting someone.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 08:16:10 PM
Wow. Is this what the world is coming to? People like you, running around trying to fix us? Who asked for your help???? ???
turn this question unto yourself godtard... ::) did we ask for your help? or for your delusional offer of 'salvation'?
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 08:16:10 PM
Or are you 'imposing' your so called help on us because we cannot function in society the way you see fit? Well tough cookies. You will never get me to follow your bologna. :P
again turn this question unto yourself godtard... and stop imposing your asinine godtard delusions upon us as you see fit. you will never get me to follow your godfairy when you act so disgustingly.
Quote from: Magluvin on November 19, 2012, 08:16:10 PM
"God is not there and we are here! There is no God poised somewhere aloft. God is everything. You are God."
There ya go, singing the devils song again. ::) And you are a fool. ;)
Magzimus Leviticus
and there you go... being a pretentious, sanctimonious and self-righteous godtard AGAIN, without a single shred of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for his imaginary friend... ::)
it's time for cookies and a nap little boy... ::)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 20, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
you godtards need to stop breeding.
Nice photograph!( science). But the photographer has forgotten to paste stars (round) on dark black sky. Flag is waving nicely. He has also forgotten that there is no air on moon.
We know that the entire episode of moon landing is just a fake. It is funny that even scientists are trying to misguide people.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 20, 2012, 08:00:44 AM
you godtards need to stop breeding.
Quote from: Newton II on November 20, 2012, 09:49:29 AM
We know that the entire episode of moon landing is just a fake. It is funny that even scientists are trying to misguide people.
quod erat demonstrandum... ::)
and thank you for ANOTHER tacit admission that you don't have a SINGLE SHRED of extant material evidence nor a logical proof for the existence of your imaginary godfairy savior/creator friend... ::)
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 10:29:40 PM
Bruce, Magluvin, Ramset, Tito and all other believers of God:
We have shown them the errors of their ways. It's now time to leave them to their own wicked vices. Let them fight amongst themselves and devour each other.
Gravock
Yes, most certainly, I second this. We "brush" the dust from our sandals this day.
Bruce
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on November 20, 2012, 10:30:33 AM
Yes, most certainly, I second this. We "brush" the dust from our sandals this day.
Bruce
liar. you'll be back... and so will the other godtards like gravityblock(dave), tito, ramset and magtard. all of you are hypocrites and too godtarded to be actually be honest.
and know that your efforts did nothing... except to demonstrate your pretentiously sanctimonious ignorance, your hypocrisy and your complete lack of empathy.
Read your history warriors of Christ.
You fucked up for thousands of years and still blame others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war)
what about the ten commandments don't they play a fundamental role in your belief?
Quote from: Newton II on November 20, 2012, 09:49:29 AM
Nice photograph!( science). But the photographer has forgotten to paste stars (round) on dark black sky. Flag is waving nicely. He has also forgotten that there is no air on moon.
We know that the entire episode of moon landing is just a fake. It is funny that even scientists are trying to misguide people.
There is a vertical bar on the flag that holds it out like that. As far as it not being perfectly flat, absence of an atmosphere does not render a flag flat.
Quote from: gravityblock on November 19, 2012, 09:35:25 PM
You have shown who you think you are by the name of gwandau. It's actually you, who has made yourself the biblical adversary of God, and not me. Once again you have inverted the Truth. He has inverted the letters in 'gwandau'. He inverted the 'n' and the 'u' which says, 'gwaudan' to mimic the sound of "God" and "garden". He also inverted the 'w' which would then say a "man". Then if you throw out the first and last letters of 'gwandau', to represent the beginning and the end, you then have an inverted and reversed sound of 'aduam' to mimic the sound of "Adam". Thus, he is saying the serpent ['gwandau'] was in the form of God inside the garden of eden to deceive Adam. Then there is 7 letters in 'gwandau' to represent perfection which he has inverted. You have inverted all Truths.
Gravock
Gravock,
I am sure everybody reading this hilarious explanation of yours now are irrefutably convinced that I am the Devil himself.
Your deduction was actually extremely funny, I am sure many besides me have had a good belly laugh here. Thank you for showing some sense of humour at last.
Or could it be that you actually are serious here? Yes? ..... Really?? Wow, that puts the situation in a completely different frame. Now you are really unveiling the true nature of your dark ages mentality, and the hairs on my neck raises in horror. I suddenly realize the magnitude of your delusion and can't but feel pity for you.
Poor guy, so lost in your head of numbers and signs, you really are a true victim of paradigm psychosis, showing all those known symptoms associated with a conspiracy ridden mind. Internet really has not done any good to you, only strengthend your delusional tendencies.
Try getting off that intellectual hook of yours, it only suffocates your freedom of mind and strangles the very spiritual freedom that you read about in your old scrolls.
Remember to be Here and Now, because Here and Now is all we got and all we ever will get.
Remember to dance like the children, they are our guides how to live.
Remember that our children does not inherit our earth, it's the other way around, we are borrowing earth from them.
Turn on to Life, Tune in to The Here and Now, and Drop out from your intellect. You got nothing to lose but your head.
Peace, Love and Understanding
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 20, 2012, 03:26:28 PM
Gravock,
I am sure everybody reading this hilarious explanation of yours now are irrefutably convinced that I am the Devil himself.
Your deduction was actually extremely funny, I am sure many besides me have had a good belly laugh here. Thank you for showing some sense of humour at last.
Or could it be that you actually are serious here? Yes? ..... Really?? Wow, that puts the situation in a completely different frame. Now you are really unveiling the true nature of your dark ages mentality, and the hairs on my neck raises in horror. I suddenly realize the magnitude of your delusion and can't but feel pity for you.
Poor guy, so lost in your head of numbers and signs, you really are a true victim of paradigm psychosis, showing all those known symptoms associated with a conspiracy ridden mind. Internet really has not done any good to you, only strengthend your delusional tendencies.
Try getting off that intellectual hook of yours, it only suffocates your freedom of mind and strangles the very spiritual freedom that you read about in your old scrolls.
Remember to be Here and Now, because Here and Now is all we got and all we ever will get.
Remember to dance like the children, they are our guides how to live.
Remember that our children does not inherit our earth, it's the other way around, we are borrowing earth from them.
Turn on to Life,
Tune in to The Here and Now,
and Drop out from your intellect.
You got nothing to lose but your head.
Peace, Love and Understanding
Gwandau
Wise words but i think it is to late for him and can't be saved.
Now, when the prozelytes finally has gone away from this thread, I would like to reach back to the original intent of this topic and try to develop a serious scientific approach to the question of the Probability of God.
But in order to succeed in such an endeavor we first of all have to be on common ground regarding the definition of the concept God.
Since no one the last sixten hundred posts in this thread has been able to present any extant proof in favour for the concept of a personal God in the traditional biblical sense, I suggest we leave this alternative out from the discussion, if only to avoid the prozelytes to invade and contaminate the scientific approach.
My own suggestion would be to regard the concept God as an existing INTENT behind the structure and dynamics of the physical universe.
Religious groups have been referring this Intent to a Divine Design. The concept of a Divine Design however takes for granted that the universe is all pre planned and set in a rigid fixture of fatalistic behaviour.
Therefore I emphasize the importance of an inert concept such as my suggestion of calling it an Intent, which indicates and underlying ongoing Intentional influence, where possibly universe itself is involved in the live creation of itself.
Now, what could possibly be any extant physical proof of such an Intentional energy behind the dynamics of universe?
Before I extrapolate on this, I would like to hear what you guys might say would be extant proof of an ongoing Intentional energy. Are there any extant facts that indicates that the development of sentient beings are not the mere result of chance?
Please only present extant material as proof to be validated. Anyone presenting nonextant religious material are not welcome in this discussion.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on November 20, 2012, 03:55:25 PM
Now, when the prozelytes finally has gone away from this thread, I would like to reach back to the original intent of this topic and try to develop a serious scientific approach to the question of the Probability of God.
There is no way to assess the probability of this exactly. There is just too much of the universe we do not know. As it stands now, though, the probability appears to be pretty low.
The way I think about it comes down to this. OK, so maybe someone designed this universe and set it into motion. But who designed the designer? Another designer? Is it turtles all the way down?
You eventually have to conclude that there must have been a designer that was not himself designed, but somehow evolved naturally on his own. And if that is possible, why then does our universe need to be designed. It seems an unnecessary requirement.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 20, 2012, 08:58:42 PM
There is no way to assess the probability of this exactly. There is just too much of the universe we do not know. As it stands now, though, the probability appears to be pretty low.
The way I think about it comes down to this. OK, so maybe someone designed this universe and set it into motion. But who designed the designer? Another designer? Is it turtles all the way down?
You eventually have to conclude that there must have been a designer that was not himself designed, but somehow evolved naturally on his own. And if that is possible, why then does our universe need to be designed. It seems an unnecessary requirement.
The notion of an intelligent designer also introduces the notion of a beginning.
Without a beginning or an end, the requirement for an intelligent designer dwindles.
In an eternal universe, without beginning or end, the possibilities for spontaneous self organization becomes infinite. Interestingly, the notion of an omnipotent god evolving from an eternal universe where all things are numerically possible, must also be considered equally as possible as the notion of an omnipotent god creating the universe.
Chicken or egg anybody?
Quote from: hoptoad on November 20, 2012, 09:20:38 PM
The notion of an intelligent designer also introduces the notion of a beginning.
Without a beginning or an end, the requirement for an intelligent designer dwindles.
In an eternal universe, without beginning or end, the possibilities for spontaneous self organization becomes infinite. Interestingly, the notion of an omnipotent god evolving from an eternal universe where all things are numerically possible, must also be considered equally as possible as the notion of an omnipotent god creating the universe.
Chicken or egg anybody?
But evidence does point to a beginning. The universe as we know it began with the big bang. So something not having a beginning runs counter to every single piece of evidence we have.
Now maybe there was something before the big bang, and maybe there wasn't. But based on what we have observed, whatever there was before the big bang probably had a beginning too.
So seeing as everything we have observed has a beginning, it is hard to make an exception for the creator. It would be pure conjecture, and we cannot assign any substantial probability to that.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 20, 2012, 09:46:15 PM
But evidence does point to a beginning. The universe as we know it began with the big bang. So something not having a beginning runs counter to every single piece of evidence we have.
Now maybe there was something before the big bang, and maybe there wasn't. But based on what we have observed, whatever there was before the big bang probably had a beginning too.
So seeing as everything we have observed has a beginning, it is hard to make an exception for the creator. It would be pure conjecture, and we cannot assign any substantial probability to that.
The problem with "the big bang" is that it's entire premise lies on the single piece of "evidence" of redshift. A premise that even Hubble was not prepared to attribute to the doppler effect of an expanding space. The redshift dilemna is compounded by the fact that not only is redshift quantized, but that it also shows different quantized shifts depending on which direction you look in the sky.
Couple that with the fact that big bang theory needs a plethora of add on theories such as inflation and re-ionization, and the invention of unproven particles and energies such as dark matter/energy to make it work.
The big bang theory defies the basic tenets of occams razor, and any other theory in physics that required so many ad-hoc adjustments would simply be laid to rest.
The big bang theory was introduced by a roman catholic priest (Georges Lamaitre) and was quickly adopted by christian elements of the scientific world because they thought (like Lamaitre), that the big bang theory was a great way to rationalize modern observation of the universe with their notion of creation.
Cheers
P.S I'm not proposing the big bang is a lie or just plain wrong, but I do think that it has become accepted like dogma in the same way religion has been accepted by many.
This is an interesting letter written in 2004.
http://www.cosmologystatement.org/
Since then other research and data has surfaced with evidence contradicting the big bang model.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 20, 2012, 11:02:19 PM
The problem with "the big bang" is that it's entire premise lies on the single piece of "evidence" of redshift. A premise that even Hubble was not prepared to attribute to the doppler effect of an expanding space. The redshift dilemna is compounded by the fact that not only is redshift quantized, but that it also shows different quantized shifts depending on which direction you look in the sky.
Couple that with the fact that big bang theory needs a plethora of add on theories such as inflation and re-ionization, and the invention of unproven particles and energies such as dark matter/energy to make it work.
The big bang theory defies the basic tenets of occams razor, and any other theory in physics that required so many ad-hoc adjustments would simply be laid to rest.
The big bang theory was introduced by a roman catholic priest (Georges Lamaitre) and was quickly adopted by christian elements of the scientific world because they thought (like Lamaitre), that the big bang theory was a great way to rationalize modern observation of the universe with their notion of creation.
Cheers
So what is your opinion as to where the evidence points? Do you think the universe is expanding, shrinking, staying the same?
Also bear in mind that the General Theory of Relativity, which there is tons of confirming evidence for, predicts an expanding universe. Also, apparently the background radiation levels also point to a big bang, but I am not well versed in why.
I agree that the need for dark energy, or something equivalent that we have not been able to measure, is an issue. But this is separate from whether or not galaxies are moving apart or not. Dark energy is not evidence for the theory, but rather a byproduct.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 20, 2012, 11:22:07 PM
So what is your opinion as to where the evidence points? Do you think the universe is expanding, shrinking, staying the same?
Also bear in mind that the General Theory of Relativity, which there is tons of confirming evidence for, predicts an expanding universe. Also, apparently the background radiation levels also point to a big bang, but I am not well versed in why.
I agree that the need for dark energy, or something equivalent that we have not been able to measure, is an issue. But this is separate from whether or not galaxies are moving apart or not. Dark energy is not evidence for the theory, but rather a byproduct.
You wrote this just before I put my P.S. in the previous post.
Given the discovery of the "great attractor", a region in space where a massive number of galaxial clusters appear to be heading toward, it would be suffice to say that even if the whole universe were not expanding, this doesn't rule out that some parts of the universe are expanding while other areas are contracting. Much like the way some parts of the earths atmoshere are heated and expand as a result, while other parts cool and contract.
Einstein formulated his theory of relativity whilst holding a belief of a static universe, and was actually quite consternated at the thought of an expanding universe.
Cheers
I'm must be way outta the loop, I thot the big bang theory had to do with Tiger Woods.
Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on November 20, 2012, 11:46:49 PM
I'm must be way outta the loop, I thot the big bang theory had to do with Tiger Woods.
LOL ... I dont think it was a big bang with Tiger, just one too many little ones.! .... KneeDeep
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 20, 2012, 11:22:07 PM
So what is your opinion as to where the evidence points? Do you think the universe is expanding, shrinking, staying the same?
snip...
The universe as a whole is eternally the same, while the ephemeral forms of matter and energy within it are constantly, dynamically changing.
My opinion only! Not scientifically proven fact. Just based on my own personal current science knowledge. (Very little)!
By that, y'mean the problem is his short game ?
Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on November 21, 2012, 01:24:58 AM
By that, y'mean the problem is his short game ?
LOL. Hmmn, I think you'd have to ask the ladies that question!
Well, it does seem he doesn't have a feel for the hole anymore...shrinkage perhaps ?
Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on November 21, 2012, 01:55:32 AM
Well, it does seem he doesn't have a feel for the hole anymore...shrinkage perhaps ?
LOL
Quote from: hoptoad on November 20, 2012, 09:20:38 PM
The notion of an intelligent designer also introduces the notion of a beginning.
Without a beginning or an end, the requirement for an intelligent designer dwindles.
In an eternal universe, without beginning or end, the possibilities for spontaneous self organization becomes infinite. Interestingly, the notion of an omnipotent god evolving from an eternal universe where all things are numerically possible, must also be considered equally as possible as the notion of an omnipotent god creating the universe.
Chicken or egg anybody?
I think Time plays an important role! Without Time there is no beginning or end, it creates our reality but there are also places in our universe where time stands still. If Time stops does everything stop? Maybe if there is a God he doesn't need time.
Chicken because of evolution... cell division.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg...hmmm...the rooster methinks ?
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 20, 2012, 11:22:07 PMDo you think the universe is expanding, shrinking, staying the same?
all of the above... ;)
similar to this: infinite verse (http://swirl.awardspace.com/infiniverse.html)
Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on November 21, 2012, 08:42:59 AM
Which came first, the chicken or the egg...hmmm...the rooster methinks ?
_Cock a doodle do, what's a _Cock to do?
Quote from: hoptoad on November 21, 2012, 03:33:33 PM
_Cock a doodle do, what's a _Cock to do?
well... google just recently blocked co.cc and i would assume that blocking co.ck will be next... :o
Just a little bit of breathing space uncontaminated by prozelytes, and this thread starts to move!
Great input! And a lot to reflect.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 20, 2012, 08:58:42 PM
OK, so maybe someone designed this universe and set it into motion. But who designed the designer? Another designer? Is it turtles all the way down?
You eventually have to conclude that there must have been a designer that was not himself designed, but somehow evolved naturally on his own. And if that is possible, why then does our universe need to be designed. It seems an unnecessary requirement.
Well , I've personally used to favour the idea of evolvement by chance, but if that's the case there cannot be many places like earth at a given period of time, since the probability of such a thing as life evolving out of mere chance will become extremely small. Wonder how big a galaxy need to be to create life this way on more than one place simultaneously?
Also, by saying "evolved naturally", what does the concept "natural" mean? Does it indicate that the laws of physics and chemistry are structured to be favouring the dynamic appearence of the biological phenomenon?
It seems to me that a concept like "natural" indicates that our universe carry preconfigured physical and chemical settings in favour for life to evolve.
Experiments done with simulation of the primordial atmophere of earth has shown a spontaneous formation of protein walls identical with the constituents of living cells when the primordial soup was exposed to the high electric activity of that time combined with a high level of cosmic radiation, also known to be a fact of that period. The moment the simulated thunderstorm was terminated, the cell like protein structures dissolved. Quite interesting experiment as far as I am concerned, since it indicate a readiness for life to evolve the very moment the settings are fairly correct.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 20, 2012, 09:20:38 PM
The notion of an intelligent designer also introduces the notion of a beginning.
Without a beginning or an end, the requirement for an intelligent designer dwindles.
In an eternal universe, without beginning or end, the possibilities for spontaneous self organization becomes infinite. Interestingly, the notion of an omnipotent god evolving from an eternal universe where all things are numerically possible, must also be considered equally as possible as the notion of an omnipotent god creating the universe.
Chicken or egg anybody?
This reminds me of a paradox I concluded during my seven year period in the seventies as a full time philosopher:
Infinity cannot be infinite if it does not include its own exclusion. The idea of an intelligent designer does really not have to include the notion of a beginning. Such an entity could just as well always have existed. But when involving infinity, this theory becomes erroneous, since we now have to find a place outside infinity for the creator to dwell. If there is a creator projecting our universe, there must be a projector room from which the creator executes the projection, which again makes us ask about the possibility of this also being a projection and so forth.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 20, 2012, 11:02:19 PM
The problem with "the big bang" is that it's entire premise lies on the single piece of "evidence" of redshift. A premise that even Hubble was not prepared to attribute to the doppler effect of an expanding space. The redshift dilemna is compounded by the fact that not only is redshift quantized, but that it also shows different quantized shifts depending on which direction you look in the sky.
Couple that with the fact that big bang theory needs a plethora of add on theories such as inflation and re-ionization, and the invention of unproven particles and energies such as dark matter/energy to make it work.
The big bang theory defies the basic tenets of occams razor, and any other theory in physics that required so many ad-hoc adjustments would simply be laid to rest.
The big bang theory was introduced by a roman catholic priest (Georges Lamaitre) and was quickly adopted by christian elements of the scientific world because they thought (like Lamaitre), that the big bang theory was a great way to rationalize modern observation of the universe with their notion of creation.
Cheers
P.S I'm not proposing the big bang is a lie or just plain wrong, but I do think that it has become accepted like dogma in the same way religion has been accepted by many.
Dogma is always the result of adoption by uncreative people. The creative ones giving birth to a scientific "truth" never are fully satisfied with the conclusions.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on November 20, 2012, 11:22:07 PM
So what is your opinion as to where the evidence points? Do you think the universe is expanding, shrinking, staying the same?
Also bear in mind that the General Theory of Relativity, which there is tons of confirming evidence for, predicts an expanding universe. Also, apparently the background radiation levels also point to a big bang, but I am not well versed in why.
I agree that the need for dark energy, or something equivalent that we have not been able to measure, is an issue. But this is separate from whether or not galaxies are moving apart or not. Dark energy is not evidence for the theory, but rather a byproduct.
Einstein later seemed to indicate a change of mind, when postulating the strange axiom that "time is different for every system in motion". But he was getting to old by then, and nobody was able anyway to revise the General Theory of Relativity. This and his change in attitude to the existence of the eather would probably turn most things upside down if anybody have had the intellectual capacity to follow that up.
Maybe time is a local phenomenon, directly linked to matter. If such is the case, time propagation would diminish the farther away from a solar system one goes, which the mysteriously deccelerating Pioneer 10 may be an indication of. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2002/feb/28/physicalsciences.research (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2002/feb/28/physicalsciences.research)
If time is not a universally simultaneous phenomenon but localised to time field systems made up of planets and solar systems, there would be no such thing as measurable distances between stars and galaxies. Our whole idea of the dynamics of universe would fall flat, and our holy cow, the speed of light, would be dependent upon from which field system the observations are made, since in such a case the propagation of time is a relative phenomenon.
So as far as I am concerned, believing in the big bang theory involves believing in a lot of wild guesses.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 20, 2012, 11:30:58 PM
You wrote this just before I put my P.S. in the previous post.
Given the discovery of the "great attractor", a region in space where a massive number of galaxial clusters appear to be heading toward, it would be suffice to say that even if the whole universe were not expanding, this doesn't rule out that some parts of the universe are expanding while other areas are contracting. Much like the way some parts of the earths atmoshere are heated and expand as a result, while other parts cool and contract.
Einstein formulated his theory of relativity whilst holding a belief of a static universe, and was actually quite consternated at the thought of an expanding universe.
Cheers
That seems to be the very weak part of the whole Theory of Relativity. To me a relative universe cannot be relative if there is any form of constant value or any fixed frame of reference. The only truly functional relativity theory would be a theory that relates dynamically to everything, giving a relative value fully depending upon the location of the observer. This would have to include light and time as well, otherwise relativity would not be worthy of its definition.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 21, 2012, 01:19:33 AM
The universe as a whole is eternally the same, while the ephemeral forms of matter and energy within it are constantly, dynamically changing.
My opinion only! Not scientifically proven fact. Just based on my own personal current science knowledge. (Very little)!
Makes me wonder: what is then really left unchanged, if the ephemeral forms of matter and energy are changed? What makes us think that the physical laws are existing independently of the appearance of matter and energy?
Quote from: scratchrobot on November 21, 2012, 02:32:30 AM
I think Time plays an important role! Without Time there is no beginning or end, it creates our reality but there are also places in our universe where time stands still. If Time stops does everything stop? Maybe if there is a God he doesn't need time.
Chicken because of evolution... cell division.
As mentioned above, maybe time is merely a function of the field surrounding a big body of mass? Maybe time is slowing down to almost nothing in the emptiness between the stars? That would change everything we know.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on November 21, 2012, 11:07:38 AM
all of the above...
similar to this: infinite verse
Sound like a simple statement, but Wilby is really deep here.
The magnitude of infinity is not hard to grasp, it is impossible to grasp. Infinity has to include everything possible to think of, plus an infinity of everything not possible to think of, and so on.
Infinity is :
And, not OrGwandau
Quote from: hoptoad on November 21, 2012, 03:33:33 PM
_Cock a doodle do, what's a _Cock to do?
[/quote
Or as the ex usta say..."Cock a doodle do, any cock'll do."
Pardon my turkey, but
Happy Thanks Giving, where ever you are. ;) ;D
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on November 21, 2012, 10:29:59 PM
Pardon my turkey, but
Happy Thanks Giving, where ever you are. ;) ;D
Mags
Your turkey is pardoned. Enjoy your Thanksgiving ..... and the turkey!
Quote from: Gwandau on November 21, 2012, 05:36:38 PM
Makes me wonder: what is then really left unchanged, if the ephemeral forms of matter and energy are changed?
Nothing is left unchanged. The 'whole' is in itself always changing, and the only constant in the universe is change. So the whole universe is best described as the eternally changing universe. The one constant always present is change.
As eatenbyagrue suggested the other constant is time. Time may not necessarily be linear in all frames of reference, but I doubt there is anywhere in the universe where time would be zero for any observer who was present there.
So long as it keeps changing, the universe is always the same. Constantly changing ....... Disclaimer! the above diatribe is just more wild speculation and opinion from the Toad who Hops.
Brought to you by ........ the Toad who drinks Hops!
In the beginning before the big bang there was nothing, no space no matter no time no gravity and these are the main ingredients for our universe and they are all related to each other. Matter creates gravity and slows time down so maybe time stops in a black hole?
Our universe is expanding at a speed beyond the speed of light and maybe the rate of expanding gives us time!
Maybe there are more ingredients.
Time, if we only could manipulate it ;D
Quote from: Gwandau on November 21, 2012, 05:36:38 PMIf there is a creator projecting our universe, there must be a projector room from which the creator executes the projection, which again makes us ask about the possibility of this also being a projection and so forth.
I would say this makes an assumption that projector and projection cannot be the same "thing". It's convenient to exclude this possibility but it's basically still arbitrarily discarding a possibility.
The idea is that it is not possible to observe an experiment without influencing it (as in QM). It might be negligible for practical purposes for common sizes of objects but there is still always a connection between observer and experiment. So this would simply be an "extreme" version of this connection where observer and experiment are identical.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 22, 2012, 01:16:03 AM
Nothing is left unchanged. The 'whole' is in itself always changing, and the only constant in the universe is change. So the whole universe is best described as the eternally changing universe. The one constant always present is change.
As eatenbyagrue suggested the other constant is time.
hoptoad,
I absolutely agree, everything is experiencing the phenomenon of change, but I have a feeling the dynamics of change are the direct product of time. Without time our universe probably would freeze into a infinite three dimensional still.
Quote from: hoptoad on November 22, 2012, 01:16:03 AM
Time may not necessarily be linear in all frames of reference, but I doubt there is anywhere in the universe where time would be zero for any observer who was present there.
Since I myself regard time as the very frequency engine that projects universe into existence, from my point of view time will never reach absolute zero within the infinite "confinements" of our universe. But since my world view also incorporates the full spectrum of dynamics of a relative universe, were every single particle has a unique vibrational value emanating from center of field in order to be able to exist in a relative universe, time will inevitably decrease to a fraction of Earth time in regions of deep space.
If anyone is interested in a true relativistic outlook I recommend reading David Barclays' "Unity", a theory that turns most things we take for granted upside down. You can freely download it here http://www.gravitycontrol.org/unity-book.html (http://www.gravitycontrol.org/unity-book.html) or buy it as paperback at http://www.lulu.com/shop/w-david-barclay/unity/paperback/product-5434388.html;jsessionid=9C724855B1A575CCFE03ECA4E0DDA272 (http://www.lulu.com/shop/w-david-barclay/unity/paperback/product-5434388.html;jsessionid=9C724855B1A575CCFE03ECA4E0DDA272)
In a truly relativistic universe where nothing is constant, not even the speed of light, any observations of surrounding universe made from a celestial body will differ from the same observations made from any other celestial body.
This inevitable effect of relativity will be discovered the moment mankind makes the first attempts to measure the distance to a distant star performed from two planets in the solar system seemingly positioned in the exact the same distance from the star according to the reference point of Earth.
Another aspect of this time differential between celestial bodies was shown in growth experiments that NASA performed with Moon soil. Despite being chemically harmless to plantlife, by mixing moon dust with earth soil the plants showed strange symptoms of deformity cause by abnormal growth speed. This anomaly was published in the sixties and even figured in a documentary about Nasas' Moon missions, but today is disclaimed by NASA as if it never happened. This time differential caused by the different field quality of planet Mars may cause fatal effects upon the biological functions of the individuals who according to the Mars mission plans are going to stay on Mars for an extended time. The possible validity of the Unity theory will thus show in a near future.
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on November 22, 2012, 09:17:38 AM
I would say this makes an assumption that projector and projection cannot be the same "thing". It's convenient to exclude this possibility but it's basically still arbitrarily discarding a possibility.
The idea is that it is not possible to observe an experiment without influencing it (as in QM). It might be negligible for practical purposes for common sizes of objects but there is still always a connection between observer and experiment. So this would simply be an "extreme" version of this connection where observer and experiment are identical.
Trino Cularoid,
again I totally agree, and here we actually may have entered the very area of discussion that this topic adresses, namely the probability of God, with my suggestion of adjustment by replacing the concept of a personal "God" with an
omni present non personal Intent.
The Planck scale observations of the connection between observer and experiment may indicate that universe itself is a living being deeply involved in its own development. Maybe the phenomenon of consciousness is much more involved in the shape of our reality than the dualistic viewpoint of orthodox science is able to grasp.
The dynamics of the event horizon surrounding a black hole indicates this relationship between the observer and the observed. Maybe the old eastern mystics have been correct all these years, who emphasized that there is no objective reality, the shape and appearance of the physical reality that we experience is totally depending upon the limited senses and instruments available to the observer.
This would mean that there is no tree in the forest when no one is there to observe. There is something there, of course, but this something is not limited to the tree we perceive as humans. The tree and the forest, as well as everything else in universe, are according to the mystics a matrix of pure energy vibrating forth a quality that our human senses is filtering down to our limited experience. We call it a tree, but it is only a tree to us, they say. A good analogy is the electromagnetic spectrum, we humans can only perceive a fraction of its wave length span, thus being able only to experience a very small part of reality.
If the above scenario is the actual case, there is no conceptual objective reality, and we are left with a dynamic reality that is dependent upon the quality of the observer. Thus the only question that remains is to which degree we are involved in creating our reality. We are obviously conditioned to perceive reality in a certain way, and we are likewise conditioned to perceive this reality as the objective version, which is even further funded by our scientific conditioning to approach and explain things the way we do.
But if we knew more about the mechanisms behind shaping our paradigm, how much mandate would we have in forming the way we perceive reality? As I see it, if there is no limit to this potential, and if this potential is directly proportional to to our level of consciousness, then we are potential gods.
So seen in this light we actually are responsible for the reality we experience, as being sort of indirectly responsible for which paradigm we have chosen to act through.
As far as I am concerned, this is a clear indication that we all are active parts of the creation, propelling the evolution of universe forward through our increased understanding of reality and our choice of "reality wavelength" that we decide to tune into.
Seen from that perspective the evolution of consciousness is universes' own will to explore itself.
If that is not an
Intent, what is?
Gwandau
I found this in another thread posted by TechStuf, and just had to post it here.
The article TS linked to adresses the probability of an intelligent design behind life, and its a nice article as a whole, but a bit into the article there is a certain part consisting of just a few lines that really really rocks.
Citing from the article:
"This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages. If a random mutation helps an organism survive, it can be preserved and passed on to the next generation. Yet, the flagellar motor has no function until after all of its 30 parts have been assembled. The 29 and 28-part versions of this motor do not work. Thus, natural selection can "select" or preserve the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it can do nothing to help build the motor in the first place."
I just say WOW! It seems to nail it right there, doesn't it ? It does not prove the existence of a personal God, but it sures proves the presence of some kind of design.
Gwandau
PS. Here is the link to the whole article, if anyone is interested.
http://www.discovery.org/a/3059 (http://www.discovery.org/a/3059)
Quote from: Gwandau on December 06, 2012, 09:54:57 PM
snip...
"This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages. If a random mutation helps an organism survive, it can be preserved and passed on to the next generation. Yet, the flagellar motor has no function until after all of its 30 parts have been assembled. The 29 and 28-part versions of this motor do not work. Thus, natural selection can "select" or preserve the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it can do nothing to help build the motor in the first place."
I just say WOW! It seems to nail it right there, doesn't it ? It does not prove the existence of a personal God, but it sures proves the presence of some kind of design.
snip...
It might help to weight the probabilities in favour, but not prove. Further investigation of the flagellar motor reveals that the primary (conical) base structure which forms the bulk of the motor is used for many other purposes by cells. It is a multipurpose component.
In its primary (conical) form it is used as protective armoury on the surface of cells in the form of protrubing (conical) pointed bumps.
With minor mutations, its primary form doesn't necessarily lose its utility, so a number of mutations may occur, which in themselves give no evolutionary advantage or disadvantage and simply remain as part of the primary form. Then one more mutation is all it may take to create either an advantage or disadvantage. An advantage will survive, a disadvantage will perish.
Consider Lamarckian evolution which builds on Darwins work, by showing that the pace of evolution is not just reactive to environmental influence but that living organisms are also proactive in their responses to environmental change, within their own lifetimes, producing changes in their own dna, thus creating a dynamic evolutionery process.
It may also be a mistake to think that evolution is necessarily an extremely slow, single step process, all the time. If you've ever watched the "Ice Age" animated movies, in one installment there is a flippant remark by one of the characters who says "What ? Am I a dandelion or something".
The dandelion in Australia is a remarkable testament to the reactive change of a species to sudden environmental pressure. Before and during the first few decades of European settlement, the dandelion was like it's daisy cousins and grew as a small bushy plant up to a metre in height and across. It sustained flowers on long tall shafts much like daisies still do.
Now after 200 plus years of European settlement, involving the continual "mowing" of grasslands by grazing livestock and various machinery, the humble dandelion has already evolved into a ubiquitous ground hugging plant with very short flower stems, perfectly at home in every livestock paddock and family backyard around the country. Thriving in their new squat form.
Nature has had more failed long term life experiments than successful ones though. But she has successes by the sheer number of variations produced. However, the evolutionary survival of any species is the exception, extinction is the rule.
99 percent of all life forms that have ever lived were extinct before man even looked upon the world.
Cheers
Quote from: Gwandau on December 06, 2012, 09:54:57 PM
I found this in another thread posted by TechStuf, and just had to post it here.
The article TS linked to adresses the probability of an intelligent design behind life, and its a nice article as a whole, but a bit into the article there is a certain part consisting of just a few lines that really really rocks.
Citing from the article:
"This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages. If a random mutation helps an organism survive, it can be preserved and passed on to the next generation. Yet, the flagellar motor has no function until after all of its 30 parts have been assembled. The 29 and 28-part versions of this motor do not work. Thus, natural selection can "select" or preserve the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it can do nothing to help build the motor in the first place."
I just say WOW! It seems to nail it right there, doesn't it ? It does not prove the existence of a personal God, but it sures proves the presence of some kind of design.
Gwandau
PS. Here is the link to the whole article, if anyone is interested.
http://www.discovery.org/a/3059 (http://www.discovery.org/a/3059)
you're perverting the definition of 'proof'.
and read up on FPGA's (field programmable gate array's) and what they can "design"... god's name is 'chip'... ;)
Quote from: Gwandau on December 06, 2012, 09:54:57 PM
snip...
"This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages. If a random mutation helps an organism survive, it can be preserved and passed on to the next generation. Yet, the flagellar motor has no function until after all of its 30 parts have been assembled. The 29 and 28-part versions of this motor do not work. Thus, natural selection can "select" or preserve the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it can do nothing to help build the motor in the first place.
snip....
P.S. The human genome project has help to reveal not just our genes, but also our alleles, the redundant or recessive code living within all of us. For every relevant gene that contributes to our uniqueness, there is an equivalent allele containing alternative code. But we are not using that code, or it is used only in support for and duplication of the dominant gene code .
In other words, up to a possible maximum of 50 per cent of each of us could be thrown out (not literally, physically, for biochemical stability reasons) and the deleted information would be unnoticed in its absence.
That's an awful lot of unneeded non functioning information that every one of us is comprised of.
But physical molecular stability is needed for that (dominant) information propagation, and alleles currently form the perfect slave solution for the dominant gene. If nature were to create a better, simpler design than the double helix for genetic information propogation, then redundant design codes might very quickly vanish.
Cheers
On studying the evolution of animals, we can observe that the lower level organisms like virus, bacteria, amoeba, hydra, sponges etc., donot die natural death. These organisms die starvation deaths committing suicide. Natural death starts from the formation of brain. (from arthropods?). The notion of 'time' becomes important only when animals die natural death and immeterial for animals which donot die natural death.
Has nature provided life after death in the form of spirits for all animals dying natural death to evolve themselves to higher level organisms?
So We are on a road trip, A great big Pot of potential outcomes flying through space and time.....
yesterday the Boss made this comment at Phillips Quenton thread
Quote
hartiberlin (http://www.overunity.com/profile/hartiberlin.2/)
I am getting sick of people who only have $ signs in their eyes !
Hey people, your last shirt will not have any pockets !
So where to stuff all the money when you are dead...?
We are here on earth to give and help others...
not to die rich...and forget the poor !
Please work on your Karma !
Regards, Stefan.
Then "W" said this
WilbyInebriated (http://wilbyinebriated/)
well said! humanity will remain, for the most part, inhuman until people start to embrace such ideas.
---------------------------
Pockets and Hugs.......
In my opinion this trip has a purpose,We're not just flinging crap on the wall to see what sticks.
Go out and do something nice for someone today And don't get caught.........
Chet
Hoptoad,
your insight in the evolutionary history of the flagellary motor is impressive! I bet those biochemists daring to put forward their unorthodox theory must have missed this obvious information that you so easily seem to hand out. ;)
How come then that the critics of this theory hasn't been able to prove the opposite? Quote from article: "After nearly ten years, they have mustered only a vague just-so story about the flagellar motor arising from a simpler subsystem of the motor -a tiny syringe-that is sometimes found in bacteria without the other parts of the flagellar motor present. Unfortunately for advocates of this theory, recent genetic studies show that the syringe arose after the flagellar motor-that if anything the syringe evolved from the motor, not the motor from the syringe."
Cheers,
Gwandau
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 07, 2012, 03:09:30 AM
you're perverting the definition of 'proof'.
and read up on FPGA's (field programmable gate array's) and what they can "design"... god's name is 'chip'... ;)
First of all, I really don't like the concept of a personal god, it only diminishes the logical magnitude of the concept of an intelligent design and makes the whole discussion into a farce. The Intelligent design being adressed here is not related to any religious context whatsoever.
What's so wrong with the probability of an Intelligent design? It does not in any way violate a scientific outlook on things as long as you keep away from the religious stupor.
FPGA as well as CPLD or any other advanced programmable logic arrays are all reflecting already existing basic parameters in nature doing the same thing in a far more complicated way. The dynamic and reprogrammable DNA software controlling the function and structure of living organisms is such an example.
Don't be so afraid of an intelligent design, wilby, it really does not have anything to do with religion.
Cheers,
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 12:59:04 PM
What's so wrong with the probability of an Intelligent design?
there is nothing to suggest this possibility (not probability).
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 12:59:04 PM
FPGA as well as CPLD or any other advanced programmable logic arrays are all reflecting already existing basic parameters in nature doing the same thing in a far more complicated way. The dynamic and reprogrammable DNA software controlling the function and structure of living organisms is such an example.
and there is NOTHING "intelligent" about them... ::) by ANY stretch of the word (in the manner that you are applying it).
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 12:59:04 PM
Don't be so afraid of an intelligent design, wilby, it really does not have anything to do with religion.
i'm not afraid... ::) don't be so asinine and presumptuous. ::)
you have nothing to support such an asinine speculation. speculation, assumption and the inevitable conjecture are NOT supporting evidence(s). you are anthropomorphizing reality... it's rather arrogant.
i submit that you are the one that is afraid.
regards.
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 12:39:51 PM
How come then that the critics of this theory hasn't been able to prove the opposite
are you serious? ::) i'd be laughing right now if what you wrote wasn't so STUPID!
because SCIENCE doesn't PROVE things... ::)
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 12:39:51 PM
snip.... I bet those biochemists daring to put forward their unorthodox theory must have missed this obvious information
snip....
Here's a tiny fraction of available information on flagellar systems.
http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.html (http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.html)
http://health.adelaide.edu.au/Pharm/Musgrave/essays/flagella.htm (http://health.adelaide.edu.au/Pharm/Musgrave/essays/flagella.htm)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160247/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3160247/)
Cheers
I really would prefer not to comment anything further here, since it just will propel me into one of those abysmal loops we have had in this thread earlier.
But I feel obliged to ask you, wilby, if you really have assimilated the direction of thought presented by the biochemists that could find no other explanation to the flagellar motor riddle than it being designed. It seems you stopped short even before assimilating the theory, which is unscientific if anything.
Assimilate the observations as seen by the bichemists. It is an obvious mystery. There is no doubt about that. Then draw your own conclusions of course. Nothing wrong in that. But if posting it here, please back it up. Just telling me I am stupid just bounces back upon you by simple lack of grace.
The question however the scientific observations that I started this recent input with is in favour of the idea of an intelligent design or not is of course dependent upon the mindset of the observer at this early stage of the research. But every starting point into a novel scientific area begins with a hunch initiated by some strange observations that threatens the present scientific viewpoint.
Science is not only facts derived from repeatable experiments, intuition is just as important in the scientific endeavor, especially when approaching novel areas of research. The reason for this input was not to ask for your preconceived thought patterns, but to put you at the possible portal of hitherto uncharted areas of knowledge.
As far as I am concerned, my mind is not set rigidly here, I am intuitive and open for anything possible to imagine, since I have learned that there is a lot more to things than meets the eye.
Remember that there is a big difference between a rigid mind and the rigid system behind the scientific validation process. Honor the latter, but beware of the former.
cheers,
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 07:04:44 PM
I really would prefer not to comment anything further here, since it just will propel me into one of those abysmal loops we have had in this thread earlier.
But I feel obliged to ask you, wilby, if you really have assimilated the direction of thought presented by the biochemists that could find no other explanation to the flagellar motor riddle than it being designed. It seems you stopped short even before assimilating the theory, which is unscientific if anything.
Assimilate the observations as seen by the bichemists. It is an obvious mystery. There is no doubt about that. Then draw your own conclusions of course. Nothing wrong in that. But if posting it here, please back it up. Just telling me I am stupid just bounces back upon you by simple lack of grace.
The question however the scientific observations that I started this recent input with is in favour of the idea of an intelligent design or not is of course dependent upon the mindset of the observer at this early stage of the research. But every starting point into a novel scientific area begins with a hunch initiated by some strange observations that threatens the present scientific viewpoint.
Science is not only facts derived from repeatable experiments, intuition is just as important in the scientific endeavor, especially when approaching novel areas of research. The reason for this input was not to ask for your preconceived thought patterns, but to put you at the possible portal of hitherto uncharted areas of knowledge.
As far as I am concerned, my mind is not set rigidly here, I am intuitive and open for anything possible to imagine, since I have learned that there is a lot more to things than meets the eye.
Remember that there is a big difference between a rigid mind and the rigid system behind the scientific validation process. Honor the latter, but beware of the former.
cheers,
Gwandau
;D ;)
listen gwandau... if you are going to say stupid shit like:
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 12:39:51 PM
How come then that the critics of this theory hasn't been able to prove the opposite
then i am going to call you on it... because... it's stupid
AND I EXPLAINED EXACTLY WHY.'proof' is for mathematics and alcohol. you cannot prove anything in science to a certainty, although you can disprove a lot.
all
scientific theories are proposed as rigorously tentative and thus, subject to revision.
just because something is a "mystery" to us, that
does not indicate nor necessitate "intelligent design"... ::)
Quote from: Gwandau on December 07, 2012, 07:04:44 PM
snip...
Assimilate the observations as seen by the bichemists. It is an obvious mystery. There is no doubt about that.
snip...
As seen by some biochemists, it remains a mystery. As seen by other biochemists, it is not.
There seems to be an assumption by many that complexity requires design. Since life is so complex it must be a result of said design.
A few years ago a group of researchers announced the 'discovery' of nanobes. What they thought were lifeforms smaller than anything previously known. These nanobes had what appeared to be the equivalent of dna at the heart of their structures, but the 'apparent' dna was only a fraction of the size of dna found in microbes.
The premise used to describe these nanobes as living creatures was their complexity of structure, their ability to reproduce, and possession of an apparent metabolism.
However, other researchers have shown the same complexity arising from artificial structures made from non living component chemicals.
These structures appear as self organising and self replicating entities arising from the chemical soup that was used to create and harbour them.
Some of the most surprising and complex structures created by these chemical synthesis experiments are actually non organic, containing no carbon.
It's possible that these artificial structures are in fact artificial life. It's also possible that they merely mimic the complexity of living reactions without actually being alive.
Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on December 07, 2012, 08:22:08 PM
There seems to be an assumption by many that complexity requires design. Since life is so complex it must be a result of said design.
i think this is because the difference between correlation and causation is difficult to explain and difficult at first to grasp for the scientifically uninitiated... it also helps to have at least an iq of 100 which makes it even more challenging for 50% of the population. simple-minded people like magluvin, bruce, tito, ramset, newtonII and the rest of the godtards like things cut and dry, either/or. so... when they hear scientists talk about probabilities rather than proof they think they're hedging or being evasive... and a person can spend page upon page (as evidenced by this thread) trying to educate them yet they still don't get it... nor will they in my opinion.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 07, 2012, 07:13:59 PM
listen gwandau... if you are going to say stupid shit like:then i am going to call you on it... because... it's stupid AND I EXPLAINED EXACTLY WHY.
'proof' is for mathematics and alcohol. you cannot prove anything in science to a certainty, although you can disprove a lot.
all scientific theories are proposed as rigorously tentative and thus, subject to revision.
just because something is a "mystery" to us, that does not indicate nor necessitate "intelligent design"...
I absolutely agree, Wilby, that was stupid of me to say.
I just wanted to highlight the fact, (yes,FACT) , that the mystery remains regarding the flagellar motor. But please do not misunderstand me here, I am merely indicating that there seems to be set parameters within physical universe that promotes life when conditions are optimal, which in turn makes anyone above IQ50 to question the idea that life evolves out of dead matter by pure time times chance. Not to mention the mystery of consciousness. Do you really believe consciousness has evolved out of nothing by pure chance?
Quote from: hoptoad on December 07, 2012, 08:22:08 PM
As seen by some biochemists, it remains a mystery. As seen by other biochemists, it is not.
Yes, hoptoad, that is where it still stands today, forty years later. Some observations are just a bit too uncomfortable for scientists to delve into.
Quote
There seems to be an assumption by many that complexity requires design. Since life is so complex it must be a result of said design.
The very concept of "design" is giving rise to so many different preconceptions, which I personally think is the main reason for the reaction against it.
To many people, scientists not excluded, "design" means there must be an objectified personal entity being the maker of the design.
That's not neccesarily the only defintion of "design". It could just as well be an all encompassing program that always have permeated physical universe, inherent in the very fabric of matter space and time, making the miracle of life possible when conditions are in favour. This version of an intent is not started by anyone. It has always been here, and will always be here.
An eternal mechanism as natural as the rest of the physical laws that governs our universe, an eternal non originating and non ending intent within an infinite universe.
Quote
A few years ago a group of researchers announced the 'discovery' of nanobes. What they thought were lifeforms smaller than anything previously known. These nanobes had what appeared to be the equivalent of dna at the heart of their structures, but the 'apparent' dna was only a fraction of the size of dna found in microbes.
The premise used to describe these nanobes as living creatures was their complexity of structure, their ability to reproduce, and possession of an apparent metabolism.
However, other researchers have shown the same complexity arising from artificial structures made from non living component chemicals.
These structures appear as self organising and self replicating entities arising from the chemical soup that was used to create and harbour them.
Some of the most surprising and complex structures created by these chemical synthesis experiments are actually non organic, containing no carbon.
It's possible that these artificial structures are in fact artificial life. It's also possible that they merely mimic the complexity of living reactions without actually being alive.
Cheers
The word artificial is just a human concept. Everything is natural, even if it does not fit into our carbon based system here on earth.
The same experiment has been done by copying the primordial soup of early earth and they got the exact same reaction. Protein shells were formed and as long as the electrical storms were simulted, these protein capsules started to divide just like living cells, even without the presence of a nucleus.
Personally I think that what you call "artificial life" is the exact same program intended to create life when conditions are optimal, just not the earth type.
Cheers,
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:16:22 AM
I absolutely agree, Wilby, that was stupid of me to say.
thank you. it takes a man to admit such things.
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:16:22 AM
I just wanted to highlight the fact, (yes,FACT) , that the mystery remains regarding the flagellar motor. But please do not misunderstand me here, I am merely indicating that there seems to be set parameters within physical universe that promotes life when conditions are optimal
of course... :) if there weren't such parameters, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:16:22 AM
which in turn makes anyone above IQ50 to question the idea that life evolves out of dead matter by pure time times chance.
of course life comes from dead matter. this is how nature sustains itself. life feeds on dead matter (plant, animal, mineral)
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:16:22 AM
Not to mention the mystery of consciousness. Do you really believe consciousness has evolved out of nothing by pure chance?
consciousness hasn't evolved out of "nothing"... your question is far too loaded, rephrase it and i may attempt to answer it.
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:16:22 AM
That's not neccesarily the only defintion of "design". It could just as well be an all encompassing program that always have permeated physical universe, inherent in the very fabric of matter space and time, making the miracle of life possible when conditions are in favour. This version of an intent is not started by anyone. It has always been here, and will always be here.
An eternal mechanism as natural as the rest of the physical laws that governs our universe, an eternal non originating and non ending intent within an infinite universe.
i like that idea very much... except the phrase 'miracle of life'. a miracle is an event attributed to divine intervention. ;)
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:16:22 AM
snip...
The word artificial is just a human concept. Everything is natural, even if it does not fit into our carbon based system here on earth.
snip...
Indeed, I agree. I use the word artificial only in the context of something being an artifact - that is, there has been a degree of living intelligence involved in the creation of something.
Robert Heinlein presented the idea of everything being natural in one of his books. One character says to another - "what is the difference between a dam made by beavers, for beaver's purposes, and a dam made by man, for mans purposes"?.
While the scale and materials used by man may be significantly different to that of the beaver, the inherent concept, impact and purpose of the two different dams is the same.
Yet so many people will automatically describe the beaver's dam as natural, while describing man's dam as artificial. The only difference I see, is the difference in scale.
Cheers
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 08, 2012, 07:38:33 AM
i like that idea very much... except the phrase 'miracle of life'. a miracle is an event attributed to divine intervention. ;)
It's a great wonder just to be alive and able to enjoy the world and all our senses. To me "miracle of life" hints to the great mystery of the eternal and infinite quality of universe, which by the magnitude itself inevitably excludes any possibility for us to grasp even a fraction, since by default any fraction of an eternal infinity remains infinitely small.
Cheers,
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:26:38 PM
It's a great wonder just to be alive and able to enjoy the world and all our senses.
i agree. :)
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:26:38 PM
To me "miracle of life" hints to the great mystery of the eternal and infinite quality of universe, which by the magnitude itself inevitably excludes any possibility for us to grasp even a fraction, since by default any fraction of an eternal infinity remains infinitely small.
Cheers,
Gwandau
well... to me 'miracle' means what the dictionary defines it as. that's why we have definitions... so everyone is on the same page when using words to communicate. that is the
fundamental basis of language. when you start making up your own definitions you guarantee misunderstandings.
What I have come to understand is that *first* you must allow yourself to submit. I mean you must accept the gift of everlasting life that has been offered to us all.
Only after you humble yourself and accept His will do you understand many things you did not before.
I understand that many will scoff or rail against what I have written. My only rebuttal is exactly what I have written.
Acceptance by faith is required as a prerequisite for understanding.
M.
Quote from: hoptoad on December 08, 2012, 07:07:12 PM
Indeed, I agree. I use the word artificial only in the context of something being an artifact - that is, there has been a degree of living intelligence involved in the creation of something.
Robert Heinlein presented the idea of everything being natural in one of his books. One character says to another - "what is the difference between a dam made by beavers, for beaver's purposes, and a dam made by man, for mans purposes"?.
While the scale and materials used by man may be significantly different to that of the beaver, the inherent concept, impact and purpose of the two different dams is the same.
Yet so many people will automatically describe the beaver's dam as natural, while describing man's dam as artificial. The only difference I see, is the difference in scale.
Cheers
When thinking about this conceptual mistake by many, one comes to think about a certain term.
It's called to Anthropocentism, referring to a common conceptual mistake well known by the anthropologists, a term coined by themselves when by mistake concealing the actual situation by overlaying projections from their own culture.
In this case we indeed have been doing some discriminative overlays in favour for our own race. It's funny so many of us do not se through this.
Reminds me of one hilarious moment when in a hightened level of awareness I suddenly saw us all so clearly, animals walking around with clothes just as the dressed monkey in the circus performance. I found this extremely funny and had a hard time keeping my laughter under control, in fact I laughed so loud initially, that I attracted a lot of persons attention, which only made me even more aware of the great clothing comedy played by humanity. ;D ;D ;D
The conceptual location of any difference resides in our minds only. If we could reassemble the same magnitude of pure and uncontaminated awareness that we once possessed as infants, we would be enlightened Buddhas.
Regards,
Gwandau
Quote from: mondrasek on December 08, 2012, 08:23:28 PM
??? ??? <snip> ??? ???
M.
Hey, mondrasek,
get off your monologue an join the communication going on here.
Nobody wants a monologue, it scares people off, like a loud foul smelling bum on the road shouting things in your ear.
Monologues are the farts that makes any thread smell bad and lose attraction.
Get off that sad train of yours and start communicating.
We are here. Hello?
Cheers,
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 08:24:11 PM
snip...
Reminds me of one hilarious moment when in a hightened level of awareness I suddenly saw us all so clearly, animals walking around with clothes just as the dressed monkey in the circus performance. I found this extremely funny and had a hard time keeping my laughter under control, in fact I laughed so loud initially, that I attracted a lot of persons attention, which only made me even more aware of the great clothing comedy played by humanity. ;D ;D ;D
snip...
Years ago their was a tv show called Northern Exposure which centred around a small village community in Alaska. As with many tv shows, in one episode there was a classic one-line statement which I thought summed up a facet of the human condition pretty neatly.
An elderly female character declared to a younger male character "don't be too harsh on your fellow man, after all, we are all just monkeys with car keys".
That one-liner made me laugh and sigh at the same time.
Cheers
Quote from: mondrasek on December 08, 2012, 08:23:28 PM
What I have come to understand is that *first* you must allow yourself to submit. I mean you must accept the gift of everlasting life that has been offered to us all.
Only after you humble yourself and accept His will do you understand many things you did not before.
I understand that many will scoff or rail against what I have written. My only rebuttal is exactly what I have written.
Acceptance by faith is required as a prerequisite for understanding.
M.
oh god... ::) here we go again... ::)
acceptance by faith is for the ignorant... please keep your ignorance to yourself.
Quote from: Gwandau on December 08, 2012, 07:16:22 AM
snip...
The very concept of "design" is giving rise to so many different preconceptions, which I personally think is the main reason for the reaction against it.
To many people, scientists not excluded, "design" means there must be an objectified personal entity being the maker of the design.
snip...
As Wilby has pointed out, it helps to have the same definition of a word (in context), to create a dialogue that is mutually accessible and understandable.
For example, where many people may use the word 'design' in the context of 'observing emergent structural design' arising from chemo synthesis, I would use the word pattern, as in - 'observing emergent structural pattern'.
The difference is a minor semantic one, but the intended meaning was the same. However, intention is sometimes misunderstood!
I understand your ideas regarding a universal intent, and accept them as possible, even poetically noble, but not necessarily probable.
I try not to get stuck in semantic detail regarding word definitions, but occasionally for clarity, I guess it's necessary.
Thankfully we can rely on Wilby to keep us on a definitive track!
Cheers
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 08, 2012, 11:44:32 PM
oh god... ::) here we go again... ::)
acceptance by faith is for the ignorant... please keep your ignorance to yourself.
In rebuttal to my previous post and just for the sake of being semantic .... I think it should be - oh M.G.F.S.M. ! here we go again!
Cheers
Quote from: hoptoad on December 09, 2012, 01:09:18 AM
In rebuttal to my previous post and just for the sake of being semantic .... I think it should be - oh M.G.F.S.M. ! here we go again!
Cheers
r'amen... r'amen.
hypnotism is not excepted unless you submit yourself to it as well. you wanna go around 'believing' your a chicken? just saying......
I will add one thing though.
For the second time Obomba will be swearing his oath in private.
There has to be something powerful about the bible...else he/they all would just take the oath while lying through their teeth, and the afterward joke about how they pulled it off again.
I'm starting to look at the bible with fresh eyes.
Despite all the crap inserted in it, the main theme seems to retain a powerful meaning.
No... I will not ever attend church again.
Recovering cathoholic.
Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on December 09, 2012, 05:19:16 PMI'm starting to look at the bible with fresh eyes.
Maybe it's not the book but a hypnotic overlay (or "insert").
Off-topic. Excerpt from
How to Win Every Argument (has entries related to god and religion also):
Blinding with scienceScience enjoys an enormous prestige because it has got so many things right. In the popular imagination, the dedicated scientist in his white coat is a fount of real knowledge as opposed to mere opinion. The fact that he is using that knowledge to make Frankenstein monsters scarcely diminishes the respect for his pronouncements. Many people, anxious to invest their own views with the authority of the scientist, don the white coat of scientific jargon in an attempt to pass off their own assertions as something they are not.
The fallacy of blinding with science specializes in the use of technical jargon to deceive the audience into supposing that utterances of a scientific nature are being made, and that objective experimental evidence supports them.
QuoteThe amotivational syndrome is sustained by peer group pressure except where achievement orientation forms a dominant aspect of the educational and social milieu.
(Which means roughly that people don't work if their friends don't, unless they want to get on. Now this may be true or false, but many are daunted from challenging what is dressed up to look like an expert view.)
The white coat of technical jargon is so dazzlingly clean (never having been tainted by any real scientific work) that it blinds the audience to the true merits of what is being said. Instead of evaluating contentions on the basis of the evidence marshalled for and against them, the audience recoils from the brilliance of the jargon. The fallacy is committed because this irrelevant material has no place in the argument, just as loaded words try to prejudice a case emotionally, so does pseudo-scientific jargon try to induce an unearned respect for what is said. The proposition is the same, whatever the language; and use of language to make its acceptance easier is fallacious.
Although blinding with science can be used in any argument, many will recognize the special domain of this fallacy as the subjects which like to consider themselves as sciences, but are not. Science deals with things from atoms to stars at a level where individual differences do not matter. The scientist talks of 'all' rolling bodies or whatever, and formulates general laws to test by experiment. The trouble with human beings is that, unlike rolling bodies, the individual differences do matter. Often, again unlike rolling bodies, they want to do different things. Although this might prevent us from being scientific about human beings, it does not stop us pretending to be so. What we do here is to add the word 'science' onto the study, giving us 'economic science', 'political science' and 'social science'. Then we dress them in that white coat of scientific language, and hope that no one will notice the difference.
QuoteThe transportational flow charts for the period following the postmeridian peak reveal a pattern of decantation of concentrated passenger units in cluster formations surrounding the central area.
(You could spend years formulating laws to predict this, and might even be in the running for a Nobel prize. Just remember never to mention that people are coming into town to have a bite to eat, followed by a movie or a show...)
The first rule for using this fallacy is to remember to use long words. ('When the pie was opened, the birds _commenced_ to sing.') Never use a four-letter word, especially if you can think of a 24-letter word to take its place. The jargon itself is harder to master, but a subscription to _New_Society_ is a good investment. Remember that the basic function of words is to prevent communication. Their real task is to transform what is banal, trivial and easily refuted into something profound, impressive and hard to deny.
QuoteThe small, domesticated carnivorous quadruped positioned itself sedentary mode in superior relationship to the coarse-textured rush-woven horizontal surface fabric.
(With its saucer of milk beside it.)
The fallacy of blinding with science is well worth the time and trouble required to master it. The years of work at it will repay you not only with a doctorate in the social sciences, but with the ability to deceive an audience utterly into believing that you know what you are talking about.
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 11, 2012, 01:04:02 AM
Off-topic. Excerpt from How to Win Every Argument (has entries related to god and religion also):
Blinding with science
Science enjoys an enormous prestige because it has got so many things right. In the popular imagination, the dedicated scientist in his white coat is a fount of real knowledge as opposed to mere opinion. The fact that he is using that knowledge to make Frankenstein monsters scarcely diminishes the respect for his pronouncements. Many people, anxious to invest their own views with the authority of the scientist, don the white coat of scientific jargon in an attempt to pass off their own assertions as something they are not.
The fallacy of blinding with science specializes in the use of technical jargon to deceive the audience into supposing that utterances of a scientific nature are being made, and that objective experimental evidence supports them.
The white coat of technical jargon is so dazzlingly clean (never having been tainted by any real scientific work) that it blinds the audience to the true merits of what is being said. Instead of evaluating contentions on the basis of the evidence marshalled for and against them, the audience recoils from the brilliance of the jargon. The fallacy is committed because this irrelevant material has no place in the argument, just as loaded words try to prejudice a case emotionally, so does pseudo-scientific jargon try to induce an unearned respect for what is said. The proposition is the same, whatever the language; and use of language to make its acceptance easier is fallacious.
Although blinding with science can be used in any argument, many will recognize the special domain of this fallacy as the subjects which like to consider themselves as sciences, but are not. Science deals with things from atoms to stars at a level where individual differences do not matter. The scientist talks of 'all' rolling bodies or whatever, and formulates general laws to test by experiment. The trouble with human beings is that, unlike rolling bodies, the individual differences do matter. Often, again unlike rolling bodies, they want to do different things. Although this might prevent us from being scientific about human beings, it does not stop us pretending to be so. What we do here is to add the word 'science' onto the study, giving us 'economic science', 'political science' and 'social science'. Then we dress them in that white coat of scientific language, and hope that no one will notice the difference.
The first rule for using this fallacy is to remember to use long words. ('When the pie was opened, the birds _commenced_ to sing.') Never use a four-letter word, especially if you can think of a 24-letter word to take its place. The jargon itself is harder to master, but a subscription to _New_Society_ is a good investment. Remember that the basic function of words is to prevent communication. Their real task is to transform what is banal, trivial and easily refuted into something profound, impressive and hard to deny.
The fallacy of blinding with science is well worth the time and trouble required to master it. The years of work at it will repay you not only with a doctorate in the social sciences, but with the ability to deceive an audience utterly into believing that you know what you are talking about.
Well said. BTW, I don't think we've ever been on topic! Or at best, not very often.
Cheers and KneeDeep
soft 'sciences' are... well, soft. :)
Does someone who does not believe in god but lives like a saint go to heaven?
What do you think?
Quote from: scratchrobot on December 11, 2012, 12:55:26 PM
Does someone who does not believe in god but lives like a saint go to heaven?
What do you think?
I put that question to the faithers in an earlier post, just to get their thought processes beyond the immediate fixation upon converting everybody, and the only response I got was.... exactly that, trying to convert you. Your question actually give them the impression that you are a potential convert. They just don't seem to have the ability to reflect upon such questions, since it is violating their life changing decision to solely rely on faith. If any respons is given, it is always in the direction of dogmatic persuation.
I told them I really did not like their god and what he stands for and my question was that if I was a good man doing everything I could to ease the suffering for my fellow humans and lived a life filled with respect for all living beings, was I then forced to live in their heaven anyway even if I did not want to? Since I obviously would not be welcome in hell, where was I to go?
As I mentioned, they did not have the mental ability to respond to my question, they just started one of their monologues.
Cheers,
Gwandau
Quote from: scratchrobot on December 11, 2012, 12:55:26 PM
Does someone who does not believe in god but lives like a saint go to heaven?
What do you think?
My simplified version: There are different levels of "heaven" (and "hell"). Most get kind of stuck on a lower level for a while, which has a section with the angry old man and harps, another with nothingness, a section with the 72 (perpetual) virgins, etc., but basically it is what you expect,
your version of heaven or hell.
Usually from there you go back to a next life. If you feel you're done, you go to a higher level which is kind of merging with groups. At the top level you're merging with everything that exists (which includes all lower levels). All these level and sections can be intersected in multiple ways so it can be quite complex and because of these many, many intersections it can look quite different for everybody.
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 11, 2012, 08:56:23 PM
My simplified version: There are different levels of "heaven" (and "hell"). Most get kind of stuck on a lower level for a while, which has a section with the angry old man and harps, another with nothingness, a section with the 72 (perpetual) virgins, etc., but basically it is what you expect, your version of heaven or hell.
Usually from there you go back to a next life. If you feel you're done, you go to a higher level which is kind of merging with groups. At the top level you're merging with everything that exists (which includes all lower levels). All these level and sections can be intersected in multiple ways so it can be quite complex and because of these many, many intersections it can look quite different for everybody.
OK, but so long as you realize you are literally making this up, and your version is just as likely as anything anyone else makes up. For example, I propose that the afterlife is just an endless dinner at TGI Friday's.
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on December 11, 2012, 09:03:48 PMOK, but so long as you realize you are literally making this up, and your version is just as likely as anything anyone else makes up. For example, I propose that the afterlife is just an endless dinner at TGI Friday's.
Correct. That's also the problem to proof it. Because you
can make up almost anything, you can also sabotage any proof. There are limitations where group consensus comes into play (e.g. "let's create a 'free will zone', or "let's create gravity", or "let's designate this area 'Catholic hell'"), so if you go there you're bound by certain "laws" there.
Quote from: Gwandau on December 11, 2012, 05:41:21 PM
they did not have the mental ability to respond to my question
that's 'par for the course' with faithers... ;)
Quote from: eatenbyagrue on December 11, 2012, 09:03:48 PM
snip...
For example, I propose that the afterlife is just an endless dinner at TGI Friday's.
Do they serve bread and butter pudding there? Hmmmnnn Yummmm .... slobbers ..... KneeDeep
Quote from: Gwandau on December 11, 2012, 05:41:21 PM
I put that question to the faithers in an earlier post, just to get their thought processes beyond the immediate fixation upon converting everybody, and the only response I got was.... exactly that, trying to convert you. Your question actually give them the impression that you are a potential convert. They just don't seem to have the ability to reflect upon such questions, since it is violating their life changing decision to solely rely on faith. If any respons is given, it is always in the direction of dogmatic persuation.
I told them I really did not like their god and what he stands for and my question was that if I was a good man doing everything I could to ease the suffering for my fellow humans and lived a life filled with respect for all living beings, was I then forced to live in their heaven anyway even if I did not want to? Since I obviously would not be welcome in hell, where was I to go?
As I mentioned, they did not have the mental ability to respond to my question, they just started one of their monologues.
Cheers,
Gwandau
You are right maybe i was to optimistic with my question. I think i can answer your question, you go nowhere :)
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 11, 2012, 08:56:23 PM
My simplified version: There are different levels of "heaven" (and "hell"). Most get kind of stuck on a lower level for a while, which has a section with the angry old man and harps, another with nothingness, a section with the 72 (perpetual) virgins, etc., but basically it is what you expect, your version of heaven or hell.
Usually from there you go back to a next life. If you feel you're done, you go to a higher level which is kind of merging with groups. At the top level you're merging with everything that exists (which includes all lower levels). All these level and sections can be intersected in multiple ways so it can be quite complex and because of these many, many intersections it can look quite different for everybody.
I like your version but you did not answer my question. Maybe this is what Gwandau was talking about ;)
Quote from: scratchrobot on December 12, 2012, 02:36:30 AMI like your version but you did not answer my question.
Sorry, I assumed by answering the second question it would be clear that I meant "yes" to the first one – assuming the being in question has an understanding of the concepts of "saint" and "heaven", which might be quite different from yours or mine also.
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 12, 2012, 06:27:43 AM
Sorry, I assumed by answering the second question it would be clear that I meant "yes" to the first one – assuming the being in question has an understanding of the concepts of "saint" and "heaven", which might be quite different from yours or mine also.
Okay thank you for clarifying your answer.
@ scratchrobot and Trino Cularoid,
There actually is one person who claims to be regularly visiting what he calls "the transit hall" during so called lucid dreaming. (Lucid dreaming= being aware that you are dreaming) His name is Robert Moss, a well known profile in lucid dream research as a lucid dream teacher and author of several books. He call it the Transit Hall since it according to him is were newly dead people arrive temporarily before moving on to other places.
He says that the transit hall resides at the border of a different dimension where people go when they die. He says most people newly arrived to the Transit Hall have one thing in common, they are completely unaware that they are dead. When the fact finally dawns upon them they spontaneously move on to other places, towards the lighter areas at hand or toward the darker areas, all depending on the mental and moral state of the dead.
When his father died, Moss was dedicated to identify him in the "transit hall" and help him to become aware that he was dead. He found his father sitting on a rocking chair on a porch quite similar to his own home, but when he embraced him and told him to move on towards the light, his father stressed that he had something important to share.
He then told him that he secretely had been investing in the real estate business for years without his wifes knowledge or consent. In this Transit hall Robert Moss got bank account numbers and safety box information that Robert Moss later in waking life could claim and share with his family.
Fantastic story, but I have read all his books, and everything he have taught me regarding Lucid dreaming has been of great help in my own research into this realm, and he seems a very simple and honest man with a humble approach to life.
If it is true what Robert Moss claims to have seen and experienced, then we all are going somewhere. But according to him, no god is awaiting you in the transit hall. You are all by yourself, save for guys like him trying to wake you up.
He says he have met many ateists in this Transit hall, and they all start out with no eyesight and no hearing capability. They just lie there on the floor of the Transit Hall, paralyzed. When he sits down beside them and make body contact, they start to react, and after some conversation with him, they finally open their eyes and start becoming aware of the surroundings.
According to him there are all kinds of reactions expressed in the Transit Hall. Sometimes he finds clusters of copulating people, quite impossible to reach contact with, and sometimes he sees a wall street guy running late for a train that never comes.
At one specific time he went to the Transit Hall to find out what happened to a pedofile priest that killed the boy and then commited suicide. The same day he read the news in the paper he went to the transit hall to look for the priest as well as his victim, since he was not sure the boy would manage by himself to get away from the priest.
He found the descent down into the darker areas of the transit hall but was deflected by the panicking reaction of the shady figures he run into down there due to the bright light shining from his astral body, so he created a cloak that he managed to hide himself in and after some searching in those strange and dark areas he managed to identify the pedofile priest. In the priests firm grip was the poor boy.
By removing his cloak the light emanating from him was too much for the pedofile priest and Robert Moss managed to free the boy and bring him up to the surface where he helped him to find his way into whatever direction he wanted. The twisted priest had some long years ahead down in the shady areas, which probably led further down onto dimensions that has given rise to the legends of hell. But according to Moss there has never been any sign of any god or any christian version of the afterlife. According to him we are just as much alone there as we are here. Its all up to us, wether we live on physical earth or in the afterlife/inbetweenlife dimensions.
I am sure this story will get both the ateists the faithers upset if they happen to read the above story, but that's just what one should expect, isn't it? ;)
To keep to the topic, one could summarize that according the the Moss version of what happens after death, the probability of god is just as unlikely as the probability of an afterlife dimension is likely.
Gwandau
Quote from: Gwandau on December 12, 2012, 06:31:21 PM
I am sure this story will get both the ateists the faithers upset if they happen to read the above story, but that's just what one should expect, isn't it? ;)
Gwandau
I did not know about lucid dreaming very interesting but i don't belief dreaming can bring you to another dimension.
You know if there were also animals at the transit or only humans?
Quote from: scratchrobot on December 12, 2012, 07:12:04 PM
I did not know about lucid dreaming very interesting but i don't belief dreaming can bring you to another dimension.
You know if there were also animals at the transit or only humans?
As an atheist, I'm not upset with Gwandau's story. Having already survived 3 near death experiences in my lifetime, including being "clinically" dead for about 5 minutes before revival on the operating table, I have had my own "transit room" experience.
The memory of that experience is still crystal, clear - and at first I was completely convinced that it was a spritual experience. However, after years of reading about other's experiences, and talking to some who have also had similar experiences, I'm now not so sure. The mind is more complicated than we imagine - and the sub concious takes in more information about the world around us than we are consciously aware of.
Whilst you may think that certain information is new to your conscious brain, the sub conscious has already often processed that information and filed it in to deep memory, ready and waiting for the conscious mind to access it.
My experience did not include the presence of animals of any sort.
Cheers
i think all this discussion about 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' is a waste of precious time... you only get a hundred years... if you're lucky. how about being a little more concerned with the HERE AND NOW?
The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think that it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly coloured, and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question - is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us. They say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride.' And we...kill those people. Ha ha ha. 'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride. SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings, and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourselves off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what you can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defence each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, for ever, in peace. -- the inimitable Bill Hicks
rest in peace bill, you are missed.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 13, 2012, 03:12:31 AMhow about being a little more concerned with the HERE AND NOW?
Doesn't that describe a state of consciousness? Wouldn't that be outside the framework of science (as of yet)?
If "NOW" would be an interval smaller than the Planck interval (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_interval), wouldn't then 'HERE' possibly include everywhere (or 'HERE' smaller than the Planck length possibly include everywhen for 'NOW')?
(As far as I know, we also cannot find out whether our time is really continuous or is in discrete states that change at a rate of the Planck frequency or higher.)
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 13, 2012, 07:49:41 AM
Doesn't that describe a state of consciousness? Wouldn't that be outside the framework of science (as of yet)?
If "NOW" would be an interval smaller than the Planck interval (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_interval), wouldn't then 'HERE' possibly include everywhere (or 'HERE' smaller than the Planck length possibly include everywhen for 'NOW')?
(As far as I know, we also cannot find out whether our time is really continuous or is in discrete states that change at a rate of the Planck frequency or higher.)
now you want me to waste my time with some asinine variation of zeno's arrow paradox? ::) i got better shit to do trino...
Quote from: hoptoad on December 12, 2012, 08:34:41 PM
As an atheist, I'm not upset with Gwandau's story. Having already survived 3 near death experiences in my lifetime, including being "clinically" dead for about 5 minutes before revival on the operating table, I have had my own "transit room" experience.
The memory of that experience is still crystal, clear - and at first I was completely convinced that it was a spritual experience. However, after years of reading about other's experiences, and talking to some who have also had similar experiences, I'm now not so sure. The mind is more complicated than we imagine - and the sub concious takes in more information about the world around us than we are consciously aware of.
Whilst you may think that certain information is new to your conscious brain, the sub conscious has already often processed that information and filed it in to deep memory, ready and waiting for the conscious mind to access it.
My experience did not include the presence of animals of any sort.
Cheers
I share your thoughts and also think that is exactly what is going on in our brain. I never had a near death experience but can imagine the brain is behaving different when it happens. You are right we can't imagine the complexity of our brain so we make up a story about a soul. I asked about the animals because my dog also dreams and I was wondering if he also has a soul and goes to other dimensions.
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 13, 2012, 03:12:31 AM
Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defence each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, for ever, in peace. -- the inimitable Bill Hicks
rest in peace bill, you are missed.
You are right we could turn this earth into a paradise right now but not everyone wants that!
We have more brain than animals but are using it in the same evolutionary way.
Isn't that what God wanted us to do in the first place.. create paradise on this earth!
Easy to blame the Devil for all the shit that is going on in this world!
The thing i keep asking myself is what would be the point of an eternal life?
Quote from: Trino Cularoid on December 13, 2012, 07:49:41 AM
Doesn't that describe a state of consciousness? Wouldn't that be outside the framework of science (as of yet)?
If "NOW" would be an interval smaller than the Planck interval, wouldn't then 'HERE' possibly include everywhere (or 'HERE' smaller than the Planck length possibly include everywhen for 'NOW')?
(As far as I know, we also cannot find out whether our time is really continuous or is in discrete states that change at a rate of the Planck frequency or higher.)
I don't think a state of consciousness lies outside the framework of sience, it is your brain doing his thing. I do think NOW is an interval smaller than the plank interval and HERE possibly include everywhere. What if there is no time or space? This universe is build on a foundation that has no time or space, we can see it in the center of every galaxy.
If there is a god he lives in a world without time waiting for us to stop killing eachother ;)
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 13, 2012, 09:06:20 AM[...] you want me to waste my time [...]
It is not my intention to create victims...
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on December 13, 2012, 03:12:31 AM
i think all this discussion about 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' is a waste of precious time... you only get a hundred years... if you're lucky. how about being a little more concerned with the HERE AND NOW?
The world is like a ride at an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think that it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly coloured, and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time, and they begin to question - is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us. They say 'Hey! Don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride.' And we...kill those people. Ha ha ha. 'Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride. SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and family. This just has to be real.' It's just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: it's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings, and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourselves off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what you can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defence each year, and instead spend it feeding, clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, for ever, in peace. -- the inimitable Bill Hicks
rest in peace bill, you are missed.
That's an absolutely perfect reflection!
Here and Now is all we got, and all we ever will get. Let's take our bite of the cake and enjoy the ride, we got nothing to lose and everything to gain. Or like a wise man once said: "Life is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be lived."
But to explore and study the mystery of reality and consciousness does not diminish the wonder of being here and now.
My personal rule if I was to live by any rule would be: AND, not Or.
AND my piece of the cake is to continue my devoted interest in lucid dreaming, and try to succeed in doing a so called "bridge" by identifying an object during lucid dreaming located on a place in physical reality never visited by me before and then bridge this lucid dream experience by going there afterwards when awake and succeed in finding the exact object I located in my lucid dreaming.
If I succeed in such a feat, I will personally have fully valid information that the physical world is secondary to consciousness, just like shamans all over the world have emphasized for thousands of years. Today it is just taken for granted that consciousness is the direct result of mere brain activity, wich is an assumption based solely on guesses concluded on what is seemingly obvious, in combination with the unscientific assumption that if the brain is responsible for the sensory input, it also has to be the origin of consciousness, which I feel obliged to emphasize is absolutely violating the scientific validation procedure.
Of course this "lucid dream bridge" experiment will only be valid information to me personally, since I have not the means to secure such an experiment scientifically in an observable and repeatable way. Maybe if I one day get really good at doing "bridges", there will be a possibility to arrange a setting configured by a third party that will be recorded as scientifically valid. In such a case it will bear down on the contemporary scientific outlook on reality with great impact.
Just like everybody devoted into any novel research, I am getting my highs on this, it fuels my cells and make by body sing with childish expectation every time I am preparing a new experiment. Long live the independent science!
Gwandau
This thread is now locked.
Please no more religeous threads here on overunity.com
You can discuss this on other forums.
Many thanks for your understanding.
Regards Stefan. ( admin)