hi every one, first off this is my first post here. i am new to this topic, but very interested. i am trying to learn about it as much as possible, at a hands on type approach. so after i seen it, i really wanted to build a bedini motor. the only problem is the circuit.
from what i understand i need a very fast switching transistor. i am very far from any where that sells electronics, so i use scrap parts, (witch i have a lot of) i got a lot from a few older computers (2005), and other things.
any way i was looking up the numbers on these transistors, and found some that is called a schottky rectifier if i am correct, marked wc2401. i have read that it is fast switching. but the name rectifier is throwing me off.
so can some one please explain to me more about this thing, and if i could use it in the bedini motor.
also in the computer i seen some transistor marked 45N03L, stps3045cw CC1k2 u MRC 415. and was wondering what they was used for. and how to wire them into a circuit to get that fast switching action i need for the bedini.
Any info you could give me would be helpful.
P.S. i forgot i have a reed switch, but it kinda confuses me. as it has 4 pins, 3 on one side and 1 on the other side. i'd rather not use the reed switch on the bedini but would still like to know how to hook it up, since it has 4 pins, i know basically how it works just not how to hook it up.
sorry for the long post.
thanks alot for any help.
here is some pics of the things i am talking about tried to get it clear enough for you to see the numbers on each one.
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o547/jhsmith87/20121004_112707.jpg (http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o547/jhsmith87/20121004_112707.jpg)
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o547/jhsmith87/20121004_112842.jpg (http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o547/jhsmith87/20121004_112842.jpg)
http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o547/jhsmith87/20121004_112434.jpg (http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o547/jhsmith87/20121004_112434.jpg)
Well, hello and good luck.
First off, you do need a transistor, not a rectifier/diode. The power schottky dual diode STPS3045 is a neat unit, but it's not the kind of switching component like a transistor and/or reed switch that you need for your project. There are other things that you can use them for, though.
The problem with using components from PC power supplies or TV sets is that they often have manufacturer's markings that are impossible to trace and decode. I couldn't find anything for the Bo or B0 407 thing.
The "reed switch" that you are describing with 4 terminals sounds like a reed relay to me. Again, not exactly what you are looking for for most Bedini-type motors. Your part probably has a coil (two terminals) which will read some small ohms value on the multimeter, and contacts (two or three terminals, one might be shared with a coil terminal) that will be normally open or normally closed, like a SPDT switch. In other words, there is a reed switch in there but it's wrapped with its own actuating coil.
If you can find old TV chassis, you might be able to find the right kind of transistor in one of them. I pulled out a 2SD870 from one the other day, it is suitable for your purposes, 1500V 5 A npn, used as horizontal deflection amplifier in the TV set. Be careful of capacitors that could retain a charge, when you are messing around in old TV sets.
The PC power supplies might have mosfets in them that might be suitable, but generally you will need a transistor with higher peak voltage ratings than the ones you'll find in the PC supplies.
EDIT: Ah, OK I found the 45N03L data sheet. It is a 30 volt, logic level N-channel mosfet. You "might" be able to use this but the spikes from your Bedini circuit will probably kill it. Of course... you will need one with all 3 pins !
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/FQP45N03L.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/fairchild/FQP45N03L.pdf)
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/3510.pdf (http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/3510.pdf)
Actually that mosfet looks like it would be very useful for me, for a small Royer oscillator flyback driver circuit. I'll have to see if I can find any of them in my old junk box.
thanks very much for the info. i understand now what you mean about the parts i have. yes i have an old tv i just havent taken it apart yet.
yes the reed switch i spoke of is a reed relay. the packaging says the two pins are one for coil input and one for coil out put, the other 2 are for the switch its self, i have used the switch before just using 2 pins to see how it worked.
i also have 2 transistors that i got from radio shack a long time ago. they are one pnp NTE153 and one NPN NTE152. could either of those work for my project?
aslo as i said before i am at very very best a novice in anything like this, i am not so much interested right now in building this project to try and achieve overunity as much as i am just trying to make the rotor spin nicely. once i have mastered that i can then if i decide to try to go further.
i have no idea how to make this circuit or the coil. i mean i know how to wrap a coil and that it must be a coil with iron or something in the center, but no idea what is the minimum amount of turns i must have, or gauge.
i understand how the thing works, the coil shuts off at a certain point then is turned back on, and so on, just no clue how to do this.
can you help me? explain to me how to make this circuit and a proper coil, dont have to be a coil that is going to give me 2000rpm ha, just a simple low speed continuous spin would get me started.
i also read somewhere about using ir emitter and detector to turn on and off the coil? also a toroid coil instead of a regular coil with iron inside? any insite on that?
if anything could i just get a simplified version of the circuit lay out. maybe with a bit of "idiot proofing" ha. like instead of symbols and letters just say resistor, or what ever. i know overunity info and plans are being "suppressed" i guess. but to be clear thats not what i am looking for just the motor building plans.
thanks for the reply and i really hope i can get you or some one to help me with this, as i find it super interesting but very frustrating when i spend hours on it, and it never works.
you can build a bedini circuit with parts scavenged from a pc power supply no problem... i have made several that very same way. you can get the transistor needed and the diode(s) and you can probably even scavenge a resistor that will be reasonably close to your needs... you probably won't find a neon bulb in a modern pc ps though. ;)
the transistor was a 2sc2625. the diodes were a 1n5404 on the output and a 1n4001 on the input. your resistor value will vary depending on your coil.
as far as minimum winds for the coil... i wouldn't go that direction until you have a working motor/energizer. i'd recommend at least several hundred turns... once you have built a working one and understand it a little better you'll have a better chance at getting a 'minimal' one working.
good luck!
Well thank u very much that brings my hopes up a lot. But I am still far from close to understanding how to make one.
I still would like to know if some one could help me in building one. As I said I am very ignorant right now on building components, although I understand fairly well how they work.
Ive seen diagrams on how to do it but none I could really understand. Also the npn 152 transistor I already have I hope will work in order to keep me from sorting through my scrap pile for one..
So my main question still stands can anyone give me a for lack of better words idiot proof how to or step by step.
I did just make my coil.(the easy part) 2 strands of 26g wire twisted together to give me 4 leads, wrapped around a plastic spool about 400 to 600 turns. With iron filling the inside of the spool. And thats it as far as ive gotten or can get.
Can anyone help with a step by step
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 04, 2012, 09:41:41 PM
Well thank u very much that brings my hopes up a lot. But I am still far from close to understanding how to make one.
I still would like to know if some one could help me in building one. As I said I am very ignorant right now on building components, although I understand fairly well how they work.
Ive seen diagrams on how to do it but none I could really understand. Also the npn 152 transistor I already have I hope will work in order to keep me from sorting through my scrap pile for one..
So my main question still stands can anyone give me a for lack of better words idiot proof how to or step by step.
I did just make my coil.(the easy part) 2 strands of 26g wire twisted together to give me 4 leads, wrapped around a plastic spool about 400 to 600 turns. With iron filling the inside of the spool. And thats it as far as ive gotten or can get.
Can anyone help with a step by step
your npn152 will probably not be sufficient... your coil, if bifilar, should be of different gauge wires. a smaller gauge for the trigger winding. it will probably work anyways...
step by step? try youtube.
i'll dig out my old 'pc' bedini and take some pics of the circuit board for you when i have a bit of time...
Ive looked on you tube. No good step by steps not thst I can understand any way. Ss far as the bifilar coil, as I said im just wanting to get it spinning not trying to recharge batteries or anything yet. So do I still need the bifilar? And u say my transistor prolly wont work it is an npn y wouldn't it work? If I get to radio shack what should I look for in a transistor?
If u could try to explain it like this.
Lets call the 2 input wires a1 and B1 and output A2 and b2. Could u tell me what I should hook each wire to?
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 04, 2012, 11:11:41 PM
So do I still need the bifilar? And u say my transistor prolly wont work it is an npn y wouldn't it work? If I get to radio shack what should I look for in a transistor?
yes. unless you are planning on using another method to trigger. the transistor probably won't work because it isn't designed to do what you are going to ask it to do. if you go to ratshack get a 2n3055 transistor.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 04, 2012, 11:11:41 PM
Lets call the 2 input wires a1 and B1 and output A2 and b2. Could u tell me what I should hook each wire to?
a1 goes to the base of the transistor (through the appropriate resistor of course).
b1 goes to the + of the drive battery.
a2 goes to the negative rail.
b2 goes to collector of the transistor.
What do u mean by negative rail?
So to be sure im right. And this is just to run the motor not including charging extra battery. The pins on the transistor will only have one wire on each pin. Two coming wires from the coil one to collector one to base, and one wire from the emitter to the negative battery post?
So I got 4 wires from the coil 2 to the transistor one to the positive battery post. Then I got one left. Where does it go? Im guessing here but is it to the negative battery post as well?
Good pic but like I said im almost a child when it comes to reading those plans unless it has plain basically idiot proof details describing what each symbole is and all thst. And that one was describing one to charge a battery and it may seem simple but it just confuses me more. I would like to see a detailed picture like that but that only has info on the battery that powers it. And where to hook what wire and all that.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
What do u mean by negative rail?
So to be sure im right. And this is just to run the motor not including charging extra battery. The pins on the transistor will only have one wire on each pin. Two coming wires from the coil one to collector one to base, and one wire from the emitter to the negative battery post?
by negative rail i mean the 'rail' or 'bus' where all the grounds or negatives go. if you don't want to charge a battery don't hook up a charge battery...
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
So I got 4 wires from the coil 2 to the transistor one to the positive battery post. Then I got one left. Where does it go? Im guessing here but is it to the negative battery post as well?
yes. to the negative rail or bus which is connected to the negative post of the drive battery.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
Good pic but like I said im almost a child when it comes to reading those plans unless it has plain basically idiot proof details describing what each symbole is and all thst. And that one was describing one to charge a battery and it may seem simple but it just confuses me more. I would like to see a detailed picture like that but that only has info on the battery that powers it. And where to hook what wire and all that.
it does have idiot proof details describing what each symbol is... see where it says diode1 and diode2 and transistor and resistor and battery... etc. etc. and it clearly shows where to hook what wire and all that. anywhere there is a red dot on the 'wires', that is a connection...
again, if you don't want to charge a battery don't hook up a charge battery...
What I was sayin about the pic is it bc has extra connections shown for hooking up extra wires that go to the charge battery. Which may seem simple to over look for a more advanced person such as u but the extra connections for the charge battery throw me off.
I understand what u mean by if I don't want the charge battery don't hook it up but if I used that diagram then I would have extra wires that don't go to any thing right?
Assigns your right that diagram does explain it self rather well. Only thing that threw me off was the extra connections for the charge battery.
I could just take All the wires coming off the charge battery and omit them right?
I think I get it now man thanks for your help man, considering your the only one who has bothered to help at all.
Now I think I have a grip on the circuit now just to figure out how to make a good simple rotor.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 03:07:25 AM
What I was sayin about the pic is it bc has extra connections shown for hooking up extra wires that go to the charge battery. Which may seem simple to over look for a more advanced person such as u but the extra connections for the charge battery throw me off.
I understand what u mean by if I don't want the charge battery don't hook it up but if I used that diagram then I would have extra wires that don't go to any thing right?
Assigns your right that diagram does explain it self rather well. Only thing that threw me off was the extra connections for the charge battery.
I could just take All the wires coming off the charge battery and omit them right?
I think I get it now man thanks for your help man, considering your the only one who has bothered to help at all.
correct. just omit them.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 03:07:25 AM
Now I think I have a grip on the circuit now just to figure out how to make a good simple rotor.
hard drive guts make good rotors if your magnets are lightweight. inline skate wheels work good too.
i edited the picture to remove the things you won't need if you aren't charging batteries...
great pic thanks alot. i do have a hard drive, only thing is the disk its self sits down inside the metal housing. i dont know how i could get the magnets mounted on the hard drive considering it sits down in there. i could take the hard drive disc out but the bearing is inside the housing. so would i use the disc and find something else to set it on to spin? if so what?
i do have an old ceiling fan housing. with a good bearing in it, and a shaft that fits just right inside the bearing, the only problem with that is the housing that the bearing is on is metal, and that would affect it wouldnt it?
or does it matter could i use a metal object for the rotor?
o yea and i have been reading in other places and some say you cant use neo magnets. is that true?
if so why not? and if not could i just use some really weak N35 neo magnets?
and about the variable resistor or potentiometer right? the only one i can find online at ratshack is 5k ohm. but even that one says its wattage ratting is only .5w so if i had it running on a 12v battery wouldnt that fry it?
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 10:48:21 AM
great pic thanks alot. i do have a hard drive, only thing is the disk its self sits down inside the metal housing. i dont know how i could get the magnets mounted on the hard drive considering it sits down in there. i could take the hard drive disc out but the bearing is inside the housing. so would i use the disc and find something else to set it on to spin? if so what?
epoxy. use two platters spaced apart enough for the magnets. most of the bearings are pressed in... press them out. or find one that is screwed in.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 10:51:49 AM
i do have an old ceiling fan housing. with a good bearing in it, and a shaft that fits just right inside the bearing, the only problem with that is the housing that the bearing is on is metal, and that would affect it wouldnt it?
or does it matter could i use a metal object for the rotor?
you'll have to experiment... what you don't want is a rotor that is magnetic. think about it...
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 10:51:49 AM
o yea and i have been reading in other places and some say you cant use neo magnets. is that true?
if so why not? and if not could i just use some really weak N35 neo magnets?
and about the variable resistor or potentiometer right? the only one i can find online at ratshack is 5k ohm. but even that one says its wattage ratting is only .5w so if i had it running on a 12v battery wouldnt that fry it?
you can use neos but they are much stronger so you will have to increase the magnet to coil distance. yeah i wouldn't use a half watt pot, it will probably fry or burn a dead spot.
Great idea on the platters. Only thing is id have to drill a hole in them. It would be tough to find the center I would know how to find the center of a circle ha..
Makes good sense I wouldn't want a metal rotor after thinking about it
I with I'd have known about not getting a half watt pot sooner. Just got back from the shack and I didn't know witch one to get and it its half watt my resistors are 1/8 100k ohm and 1/8 1k ohm of course I got some from computers and other parts to. I hope I got the right resistors.
Transistors I got 2n222, 2n3904, 2n4401, tip3055, tip31, and 2n3055. I hear that the 2n3055 works really well
Diodes I got in4001, and a pack of 25 assorted 1 amps.
And 2 12v 50ma neons.
I know I got at least one good transistor. I just hope I can make the other stuff work some how. Maybe the pot will work if I run on 9v?
Any suggestions?
i'm busy doing some gun smithing at the moment. when i finish i will go dig out my hard drive platter rotor and take some pics of it for you. no drilling is needed, just epoxy. the magnets can be scavenged from any cd/dvd drive.
Ok thanks a lot man.. I got plenty magnets all shapes and sizes but all neo.
I think I may have to run on 9v I don't have the bigger wire not enough any way. I have lots of. 30G 26g and 18g. 20G, 22g I only have at most 35 to 40 feet. So I'm going to make my coil with 30 & 26g that along with having a half watt pot. I think I'll have to drop the voltage.
I'm going to make my new coil. So take your time workin on your gun.
When u do send the pic be sure it shows the base of it. That's the more complicated of the rotor to me. How and what it sits on how its held in place and all that..
Again thanks a lot man
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 08:15:10 PM
Ok thanks a lot man.. I got plenty magnets all shapes and sizes but all neo.
I think I may have to run on 9v I don't have the bigger wire not enough any way. I have lots of. 30G 26g and 18g. 20G, 22g I only have at most 35 to 40 feet. So I'm going to make my coil with 30 & 26g that along with having a half watt pot. I think I'll have to drop the voltage.
I'm going to make my new coil. So take your time workin on your gun.
When u do send the pic be sure it shows the base of it. That's the more complicated of the rotor to me. How and what it sits on how its held in place and all that..
Again thanks a lot man
i'd go 20 or 22 gauge and 26 for the trigger... i'll have some pics up for you in a couple hours.
erf... just re-read your post and realized you said you're short on 20 and 22. i'd use up your 18 gauge then. the bigger your 'power' coil gauge the better, the trigger coil is just triggering the transistor to switch so it doesn't need to handle much. but then again you're not wanting to charge batteries so... play with it.
The only two I have enough wire for is 30 & 26g should I use the bigger wire for the trigger
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 05, 2012, 08:41:19 PM
The only two I have enough wire for is 30 & 26g should I use the bigger wire for the trigger
if that's all you have a lot of then use the 30 for the trigger winding and the 26 for the power winding.
Ok so the wire Going to the battery should b the 26?
i pulled the front round magnet off to try and show the small rectangular one behind it but the flash lit up the epoxy really bright so not sure if you can see it. the small rectangular magnets were taken from a couple cd/dvd drives... they are right by the lens. i epoxied those to the 4 points around the diameter of the platter and waited for them to dry, i then placed the platter with the magnets on the spindle and epoxied a top platter to that. that way i had something to hold the circular magnets perpendicular to the platters. those got epoxied too.
rollerblade or skateboard wheels work well too and are much easier to do. just drill holes the size of your magnets, press them in and epoxy over them.
thats real neat. that is almost how i pictured mine. the only thing i am still confused one is, how is it mounted? like on the bottom, how is the shaft or what ever is holding it up right configured so that it is held up steady and is able to spin?
Keep in mind the wire I'm using when I ask this..
The more turns the better right? Of course with out over kill like 5000 turns
yes, the more the better...
here's a pic of the platters taken off the spindle and its housing. the spindle and its housing are mounted to a spacer simply to match the magnets to the coil core. it's a very crude setup that i did just to demonstrate to a friend how to make one quick and dirty without buying parts.
O ok see the center of your hard drive disc come out mine don't. Your disc looks like a CD mine has a solid piece in the center where it surrounds the coils of the hard drive. And a shaft in the center that goes in the middle of those coils to sit in the bearing
Don't forget that you need ferrite (ceramic) magnets rather than the
neodymium ones in hard drives. (Ring ceramics can be found in the
magnetron of a microwave oven).
Also, you don't need massively powerful ones. They are only a trigger.
This site is especially focused on this work ince, rather regrettably, the
Yahoo group, Bedini_Monopole3 has been closed down, but leaving
their files and messages intact:
http://www.energyscienceforum.com/bedini-monopole-3-beginners/
Well i only have neos. I have some pretty weak ones though.
Although I just remembered I have to ring magnets from a microwave. But I only have those two. I have to have more than 2 right?
Why can't I use neos? Weak ones any way.
And I finished the circuit last night on a rather crudly built rotor. I could get it to spin but it would always come to a stop.
The trigger coil and the drive coil need to be properly "phased". Try reversing the leads of just one of the coils. (This is a general rule when working with two coils that are supposed to work together: Phasing can be important so always try both ways.)
With good construction you can get the motor to run on two magnets or even just one, but you have to have good balance for that.
Use your weak neos, and a rotor with just four magnets to start, just to get your circuit working, triggering and pulsing properly.
The local hobby shop is your friend. You can get shafts, bearings and things like plastic RC truck wheels there for not much money. Also weak ceramic magnets. I used a plastic truck wheel for a rotor in a pulse motor, put the magnets inside the rim, and RC helicopter shaft ball bearings. Easy to do without much tooling (although a drill press is very handy).
Just one of the coils.. I didn't think of that I reversed both of them. But didn't think of doing just one thanks.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 06, 2012, 12:39:39 PM
Well i only have neos. I have some pretty weak ones though.
Although I just remembered I have to ring magnets from a microwave. But I only have those two. I have to have more than 2 right?
Why can't I use neos? Weak ones any way.
And I finished the circuit last night on a rather crudly built rotor. I could get it to spin but it would always come to a stop.
you can use neos... the magnets on the rotor i showed are neos and they work fine. if you use neos you need a larger gap between rotor and coil.
Yea I was confused. I knew your picture had neos. I got a skate board wheel now so hopefully I will have a good rotor soon. I just need to get the circuit down.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 06, 2012, 06:14:18 PM
Yea I was confused. I knew your picture had neos. I got a skate board wheel now so hopefully I will have a good rotor soon. I just need to get the circuit down.
cool. much easier to deal with. keep at it, you'll get it going.
I hope so cause right now I can't keep the rotor spinning
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 06, 2012, 06:26:59 PM
I hope so cause right now I can't keep the rotor spinning
check your transistor and make sure you didn't toast it.
I didn't. I tried replacing it
do you have a 120V neon bulb across the collector and emitter? running 'no load' that must be there or you will toast transistors. it should be lighting up when the rotor is spun or spinning.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 06, 2012, 12:39:39 PM
I just remembered I have to ring magnets from a microwave. But I only have those two. I have to have more than 2 right?
You could cut them into quarters and then there would be eight.
Hard work with a hacksaw. Easier with an angle grinder but
keep them cool or they will demagnetise.
I don't know why JB does not want neos used. There is a reason.
I thought it was a 12v bulb I needed
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 07, 2012, 11:30:06 AM
I thought it was a 12v bulb I needed
nope 120V neon... that may very well be your issue. what kind of 12V bulb is it? a filament bulb?
I'm sure its a neon. Its just 12v 50ma
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 07, 2012, 01:35:38 PM
I'm sure its a neon. Its just 12v 50ma
does it light or flash when you spin the rotor fast? battery connected of course.
No but I didn't really have it hooked up like u said
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 07, 2012, 01:35:38 PM
I'm sure its a neon. Its just 12v 50ma
Is there any way you can post a picture or a part number?
Neon bulbs, like the NE-2, need at least 80-90 volts to "fire", and when they do turn on they have very low resistance and will draw much more than 50 mA if you let them. They are almost always used with a series current-limiting resistor when used as indicator lamps, etc. As far as I am aware, there are no neon bulbs that will light below about 80 volts, without associated circuitry to boost voltage.
These are NE-2 neons. What does your neon look like?
Here's a circuit that does everything a Bedini motor does, but without the rotor or any moving parts. It uses a self-triggered 2n3055 transistor pumping an inductive coil set (the toroidal windings) to produce high voltage spikes that light up the NE-2 neon, or will give a little mini-Taser shock. It runs on one depleted AA or AAA battery, and will light the neon with battery voltage below one volt. The circuit schematic is almost identical to the Bedini pulse motor circuit and uses the transistor in the same way, to switch an inductive load that also produces a pulse to the transistor's base-- the self-triggering feature.
In the Bedini motor the motion of the external rotor magnets provides the induced current in the coil to trigger the transistor to pulse the drive coil. In this miniJT it's all done inside the toroid, with no moving parts. Well, it does "sing" from magnetostriction.
The point is, once you get the correct components together, you will be able to get your circuit running, using 4 rotor magnets, one magnet, or even no magnets at all.
I can't get a picture I therew away the pack. But after searching a bit. And what u told me about their voltages I don't think it is a neon.
I have made a joule thief before. It took a while but I did it.
On yours do u have the coil wires wrapped opposite of each other or r they wrapped the same direction
I think they are wrapped in the same direction in that build. Same or different, it will still work I think, but the ends that you have to connect together will change. Current flowing one way in a CW coil will make the same polarity magnetic field as current flowing the other way in a CCW coil.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 07, 2012, 11:28:04 PM
Here's a circuit that does everything a Bedini motor does
That's a very neat piece of equipment, Tinselkoala. But the SSG's role is
to charge batteries. Where do the leads come from? If you could show
the Bedini circuit adapted, that would be great.
well i am not trying yet to recharge batteries right now, right now i am just trying to make the simplest bedini circuit i can.
i think maybe if some one could explain to me exactly how the transistor is working and what it is doing.
some one said a few post back that i could try a 2n3055 transistor that is self triggering? how is that different than a regular switching transistor?
Quote from: Paul-R on October 09, 2012, 10:40:53 AM
That's a very neat piece of equipment, Tinselkoala. But the SSG's role is
to charge batteries. Where do the leads come from? If you could show
the Bedini circuit adapted, that would be great.
If you take out the neon bulb which is on the output of that circuit and put a diode in series with a battery or capacitor you wish to charge, you will indeed find that you are able to charge the battery quite well, and/or accumulate hundreds of volts of charge on the capacitor. I have another variant sitting on my shelf right now that took its own running battery from 1.26 volts up to about 1.35 volts in a matter of 4 hours, then it started running down slowly.... but it is still powering its LED right now, I think 5 full days after starting it up, and the battery voltage has finally dropped back down to where it was when I started.
Just as with the Bedini charging circuits, the battery eventually runs down.
But this is not the place to talk about those kinds of things yet. We are trying to help jhsmith87 get his circuit doing something... anything.... like running his pulse motor or lighting a neon.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 09, 2012, 12:44:20 PM
well i am not trying yet to recharge batteries right now, right now i am just trying to make the simplest bedini circuit i can.
i think maybe if some one could explain to me exactly how the transistor is working and what it is doing.
some one said a few post back that i could try a 2n3055 transistor that is self triggering? how is that different than a regular switching transistor?
It's not the transistor that is "self-triggering", it is the circuit as a whole. Mine seem to work in two modes: there is the true triggered mode, where the sense coil picks up a changing magnetic field, which induces a voltage in the coil, which then causes current to flow in the base-emitter loop, and this allows much larger current to flow in the collector-emitter loop. I always get pnp and npn transistors mixed up; one is turned on by the base voltage, the other is turned off by the base voltage. So basically what happens is this: the rotor magnet approaches the coil set and its motion induces a voltage in the sense coil. This causes the base of the transistor to turn on the collector-emitter loop, which causes a big current to flow in the main coil, pulling or pushing the rotor. This big current pulse also affects the sense coil and turns the transistor off, and the magnetic field of the main coil collapses, making a high-voltage spike that can be used to charge a battery, light a high-voltage bulb, or destroy your transistor. So the rotor gets an impulse, enough to turn so that the next magnet pulses the sense coil and the process repeats. This is the true "triggered" mode that will drive your pulse motor.
There is a second mode though, that you probably want to avoid, but it is the one I use mostly. This is a real self-triggering resonant oscillation that depends mostly on capacitances in the circuit interacting with inductances... in other words it's a feedback squeal, but at very high frequencies. This makes the very highest voltages, which I use for my neons. You don't need this feedback mode, you want to stay in the true triggered mode for your pulse motor.
The reason that the 2n3055 is used in these circuits is because it is tough, it can take the abuse. And they are cheap and can be found in a lot of surplus gear. You want a transistor that can handle a lot of current and doesn't blow easily from high-voltage spikes. The 2n3055 is ideal, and there are also mosfets that will work but they need at least 4 volts on the gate (base) to work, so usually people use the bipolar types for this work. For a small motor you can experiment with the 2n2222a; the same circuit should work with the 2n3055 at higher power levels.
a simple way to lay out the circuit on a 1.75" x 1.75" ratshack board. the black lines on top of the board show where the connecting 'traces' are underneath.
edit: to make the 'traces' underneath simply use the unused lengths of wire cut off of the diodes and resistor. or any other appropriate sized piece of wire. solder your connections and bob's your auntie.
2nd edit: i added a yellow box to show you what to omit if you aren't charging batteries. you don't need the white wire either.
thanks for the pic man. honestly i didnt really understand much of what you was talking about in you post before that. i am very new to the world of electronics. so you may have to speak to me about electronics as if you were speaking to a child.. haha.
that pic seems very easy to follow. could you get me one back up a little farther? that way i can see where the wires going out of frame are connected to. also that green bulb that is your neon bulb?
i seen those at ratshack, and i think i have seen them at auto zone, do you know if they are sold at places like auto zone?
also if you will could you show me the pic i just asked for using the diodes as you mentioned instead of the bulb. and if possible take one from above as before, and from each side.
i have been trying my best to get mine to just spin without stopping after about 15 rotations. i have all the transistors you spoke of plus many more.
i know i have what it take to make it now that you said i could use diodes instead of a neon, i should be able to get this thing going.
i got a skate board wheel for a rotor, but realized the "crude rotor" i built before that spins so so so much better, it is a rc car wheel held up by a alum shaft in the middle, a plastic flange at the end sitting on a high performance bearing. all kept in place by sitting the shaft, flange and bearing, down into a plastic coin tube with a coke bottle lid at the bottom. i can give it a light push, go pour me a glass of milk and come back to it still spinning. so i believe that will be my rotor of choice.
only thing is it is quite large in diameter. aprox. 8in. so i am not sure how many magnets i should use.
and in the core of my coil i am using finishing nails, i am not sure if that is iron, but that should work right?
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 10, 2012, 12:50:57 PM
thanks for the pic man. honestly i didnt really understand much of what you was talking about in you post before that. i am very new to the world of electronics. so you may have to speak to me about electronics as if you were speaking to a child.. haha.
yeah sometimes a simple pic is worth a thousand words.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 10, 2012, 12:50:57 PM
that pic seems very easy to follow. could you get me one back up a little farther? that way i can see where the wires going out of frame are connected to.
the wire connections, using your previous a1,a2,b1,b2 schema are as follows:
a1 connects to the top blue wire.
a2 connects to the bottom blue wire (which is the negative 'rail' or 'bus' connection).
b1 connects to the green wire which goes to the positive of the battery.
b2 connects to red wire, the one on the left side of the circuit board.
the black wire connects to the negative of the battery.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 10, 2012, 12:50:57 PM
also that green bulb that is your neon bulb?
i seen those at ratshack, and i think i have seen them at auto zone, do you know if they are sold at places like auto zone?
yes it is. got it at ratshack, i don't know if autozone has them.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 10, 2012, 12:50:57 PM
also if you will could you show me the pic i just asked for using the diodes as you mentioned instead of the bulb. and if possible take one from above as before, and from each side.
i have been trying my best to get mine to just spin without stopping after about 15 rotations. i have all the transistors you spoke of plus many more.
i know i have what it take to make it now that you said i could use diodes instead of a neon, i should be able to get this thing going.
you need a neon. diodes cannot be used in place of a neon. sorry i didn't make myself clearer. if you bought diodes (or resistors) at ratshack they will have a inch and a half of wire on each side used to connect them, you don't need all that on a small breadboard so you end up cutting off the excess. that excess can be used to construct the 'traces' underneath the board. you could do the connections on the top of the board as well, it really doesn't matter on this circuit.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 10, 2012, 12:50:57 PM
i got a skate board wheel for a rotor, but realized the "crude rotor" i built before that spins so so so much better, it is a rc car wheel held up by a alum shaft in the middle, a plastic flange at the end sitting on a high performance bearing. all kept in place by sitting the shaft, flange and bearing, down into a plastic coin tube with a coke bottle lid at the bottom. i can give it a light push, go pour me a glass of milk and come back to it still spinning. so i believe that will be my rotor of choice.
only thing is it is quite large in diameter. aprox. 8in. so i am not sure how many magnets i should use.
and in the core of my coil i am using finishing nails, i am not sure if that is iron, but that should work right?
that sounds like a great rotor... how big are your magnets? if they are the size of the ones i showed on that hard drive platter, i'd say 8 magnets. finishing nails should work.
i have all size magnets.. and they can easily be replaced on the rotor, right now it is 3/4" x 3/16" disc.
i also have 1/2" disc, 3/8" disc, and 1 x 1/2 x 1/4" blocks.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 10, 2012, 02:08:21 PM
i have all size magnets.. and they can easily be replaced on the rotor, right now it is 3/4" x 3/16" disc.
i also have 1/2" disc, 3/8" disc, and 1 x 1/2 x 1/4" blocks.
i'd say 6 or 8 of the 3/4" or 1/2"
that very well could be the problem, i have only 4 of the 3/4"
a) Forget any "reed switch" the Bedini doesn't need one: that's what the trigger winding is for.
Also don't use a 2n2222 or equiv. small signal transistor to drive the power coil.
b) Use the 30gauge (small diameter) wire for the trigger coil, the 26gauge wire for the drive coil.
(note: a 0gauge wire is really really thick)
c) Don't worry too much about coil polarity...you can always try one or the other in reverse.
d) 2n3055 is an NPN bipolar power transistor with relatively low resistance in both the EC and BE circuits.
e) To test 2n3055 bare transistor you can put a 3V flashlight incandescent bulb in the
EC circuit and then use a 1K ohm resistor in the base circuit with 2 D cells = 3.0VDC as a power supply.
The bulb should light when the 1kohm resistor (1K CC= brown, black, red, silver) touches the positive
of the battery. The bulb would never light with the 1K ohm resistor in series with *it*. This proves/shows
the beta-gain of the power transistor.
f) You should construct the above circuit as a confidence builder as it has only 4 parts.
g) Now put your 26gauge coil winding in place of the flashlight bulb, you should now be be able to
make your rotor move by pulsing the 1k ohm resistor against the positive of the battery at the
appropriate times.
h) Then construct the rest of the Bedini circuit using the appropriate power supply.
i) I think the thing you are doing wrong is: especially the 1x3/4x1/2 magnet is magnetized with the
N/S magnetic polarity on it's flat faces. So you may have the magnets mounted incorrectly on wheel.
Use a compass to check. The coil should first see the N field coming towards it then after a short time it
should see the S field going away. This is going to make a mighty strange looking wheel as the magnets
will look like paddles on a paddle wheel.
j) The way around this is to use the appropriate bar magnets magnetized along their *length*.
There was a user on here named Quinn from Australia who stated that these magnets magnetized
between their narrow faces were largely useless for experimental work.
k) You may be able to "sort of" get it to work if the N/S poles are face out if you alter the polarity of the
magnets to N outward then S outward but this circuit is called a monopole Bedini because the
circuit only operates on 1/2 half the cycle of attract or repel and not both. To have both would require
a bipolar Bedini circuit.
l) For a simple circuit you can swap PNP for an NPN transistor and vice versa by simply reversing the
polarity of the battery.
:S:MarkSCoffman
I'm on my way to rats hack. Tell me what I need what bulb and exactly what resistors. And if it should b 1/8,1/4, 1/2 watt or what
Great instructions coffman! Thanks..
I'm at ratshack now please tell me the right resistors to use make sure to let me know if its 8th 4th half watt or what.
Also could I have this work on a 9v battery? If so what do I need to get here. I have all the transistors y'all have mentioned.
According to this diagram by Bedini, you can run on a nine-volt battery, if you have the right number of turns on your coils. I haven't built this version myself so I can't testify, but I think lots of people have done it. Since you are having so much fun, I think I'll build one alongside, and maybe we can help each other figure out how to get them working. I don't have two different gauges of wire, so I'll be doing three windings of the same #27 magnet wire and connecting two in parallel to make the thicker wire equivalent.
You can't go wrong with larger Watt (power) handling resistors, if you have the physical room for them. I find that my JT circuits need 2 or 3 Watt resistors in the base circuit, since they handle high currents and do get hot. I don't know if Radio Shack will have high-power resistors in the values you need. If necessary you can "build up" a higher power handling resistor out of smaller ones. For example, if you take two, 100 Ohm 1/2 Watt resistors and put them in parallel, you will have a 50 Ohm, 1 Watt equivalent. But you should be able to find a 680 Ohm, 1/2 watt resistor easily enough. If it gets really hot during operation you can build up a higher power equivalent if necessary.
Also, don't worry if you can't find the exact specified value for ohms, or capacitance if you need caps. You can build up the correct value out of smaller or larger resistors or capacitors (see Wiki on how to calculate series and parallel resistances, series and parallel capacitances) , and all components have a tolerance range anyway. Especially caps, they will vary by 20 percent or more sometimes and still work fine for most purposes. For the diode, specified 1n914, you can use just about any fast switching diode like 1n4148, even your dual Schottky rectifier from your old monitor would probably work. (one side of it). But Radio Shack will have the 1n914. You might want to get some more robust diodes to play around with as well, like the 1n4001 thru 1n4007 rectifiers.
Apparently Radio Shack doesn't have the simple, bare NE-2 style neon bulbs any more. The mounted neon indicators that are for 120 V service all have resistors inside them but they are still suitable. If I didn't have my big box of NE-2s, I'd get the cheapest one from Radio Shack and take it apart to get the bare neon bulb out of it; this will be better for your transistor protector neon use than using the stock ones with resistors, but probably isn't strictly necessary.
You can order whatever you need from DigiKey over the internet and in most cases it will arrive in your mailbox in three days.
OK great your gonna build one wit me great. Although I do not have any more wire so I'll have to wait to get some. Hopefully I can have some by tomorrow. I used to work at a place that rebuilt motors and he usually sells me wire by the pound. Only thing is I'm not sure how many pounds to get. I know my spool is very small and don't take much to make ten turns.
But if you could tell me again what sizes and about how heavy u think I should get we could get it started hopefully by tomorrow
OK.... well, I just wound a coil "sort of" according to the Bedini diagram above and my wire. I have a big spool, over nine pounds, of #27 magnet wire, so I'm trying to use it up. I took two smaller spools and wound them up so now I have three spools of #27 AWG enameled magnet wire. I made a bobbin using my hole saw to cut out some disks and I used a steel bolt for the core, it's a number 10 bolt and I put a piece of heatshrink on the bolt to space the end disks at 1 1/2 inch apart. Then I chucked the whole thing in the drill and took the three strands of #27 from the three spools and wound 800 turns onto the bobbin. Before I started I twisted the two ends from the smaller spools together so I could tell which were going to be the "thick" wire. I made some little holes in the end pieces for the wire ends to come out.
The 800 x 3 turns of #27 wire, the bolt, the end pieces and the feed wires altogether weigh about 9 1/4 ounces. So you can figure up or down from there for your wire, whatever's available. There are online calculators that will tell you exactly how much weight, length, number of turns, etc for coils of all types, just google "coil wire calculator" and have at it.
I also made a video showing testing this coil with a 2n3055 transistor and some magnets spun by the drill. I'm uploading it to YT now and I'll post a link when it's done.
(the weight of the ruler is not included in what's shown on the scale)
For some reason the attachment won't load on my phone. I don't really understand what u mean by disc. Did the wire get wrapped on the disc. And what do u mean by tested the transistor out. How did u do that and how do u know u passed or failed the test..
Glad u got your coils done. Wait on me to do mine now ha. I'll have the wire tomorrow. I guess I'll get at least 2lbs of 22 and 26g
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 11, 2012, 01:02:10 AM
OK.... well, I just wound a coil "sort of" according to the Bedini diagram above and my wire. I have a big spool, over nine pounds, of #27 magnet wire, so I'm trying to use it up. I took two smaller spools and wound them up so now I have three spools of #27 AWG enameled magnet wire. I made a bobbin using my hole saw to cut out some disks and I used a steel bolt for the core, it's a number 10 bolt and I put a piece of heatshrink on the bolt to space the end disks at 1 1/2 inch apart. Then I chucked the whole thing in the drill and took the three strands of #27 from the three spools and wound 800 turns onto the bobbin. Before I started I twisted the two ends from the smaller spools together so I could tell which were going to be the "thick" wire. I made some little holes in the end pieces for the wire ends to come out.
The 800 x 3 turns of #27 wire, the bolt, the end pieces and the feed wires altogether weigh about 9 1/4 ounces. So you can figure up or down from there for your wire, whatever's available. There are online calculators that will tell you exactly how much weight, length, number of turns, etc for coils of all types, just google "coil wire calculator" and have at it.
I also made a video showing testing this coil with a 2n3055 transistor and some magnets spun by the drill. I'm uploading it to YT now and I'll post a link when it's done.
(the weight of the ruler is not included in what's shown on the scale)
why are you totally deviating from any of the posted schematics and calling it a "bedini coil"?
Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 11, 2012, 01:15:29 AM
why are you totally deviating from any of the posted schematics and calling it a "bedini coil"?
Just to piss you off.
Do you really think that using two strands of #27 is significantly different from using a single strand of #23? If you do, then I suggest that you demonstrate the validity of your contention by winding some coils and showing how they materially differ. If not..... then just go back to being helpful.
And if you examine the diagram I posted, that is in BEDINI'S OWN HAND, you will see that he specifies up to 800 turns, he does not use a 2n3055 like the diagram YOU posted, and he does not use a neon.
So why are you posting diagrams and calling them "Bedini" schematics, since they don't look anything like what BEDINI HIMSELF drew? I'll tell you why: it's because you know enough about what you are doing that you can make reasonable substitutions and variations and still expect the thing to work just as Bedini himself intended. Not only that, but also Bedini himself published many variations on the same basic circuit.
Haha. Nice!!!
I don't care if its the way bendini drew it or not as long as I can get this rotor to spin like it should..
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 11, 2012, 01:32:41 AM
Just to piss you off.
Do you really think that using two strands of #27 is significantly different from using a single strand of #23? If you do, then I suggest that you demonstrate the validity of your contention by winding some coils and showing how they materially differ. If not..... then just go back to being helpful.
And if you examine the diagram I posted, that is in BEDINI'S OWN HAND, you will see that he specifies up to 800 turns, he does not use a 2n3055 like the diagram YOU posted, and he does not use a neon.
So why are you posting diagrams and calling them "Bedini" schematics, since they don't look anything like what BEDINI HIMSELF drew? I'll tell you why: it's because you know enough about what you are doing that you can make reasonable substitutions and variations and still expect the thing to work just as Bedini himself intended. Not only that, but also Bedini himself published many variations on the same basic circuit.
you failed... ::) all you did was demonstrate your usual lack of attention to detail... ::)
if you examine the diagram YOU posted, that is in BEDINI'S OWN HAND, you will see it specifies BIFILAR... ::) and what gauge does it specify?
but enough of your asinine red herrings... i'll ask you again:
why are you totally deviating from the schematic and calling it a "bedini coil"?edit: we are trying to help this guy get a working pulse motor based off the simplified bedini circuit. a guy who is an admitted beginner. stop adding confusion with your trifilar... ::)
Wilby, you are the one adding confusion. In no sense is my coil "trifilar" electrically. I simply used two strands of #27, tied together at both ends, instead of a single strand of #23. You will note that Bedini says "450-800 turns." My two strands of #27 have a cross sectional area of 0.204 mm2 and one strand of #23 has area 0.258 mm2. This means that my 800 turns of doubled #27 will have slightly more resistance than 800 turns of #23. The variation in the allowed length of Bedini's windings results in a far greater range of resistance and inductance than the difference between a doubled #27 and a single #23 strand at the same length. And do you really think that the difference between #26 and #27 is going to be significant, if the allowed turn range is from 450 to 800? You are really making yourself look sillier than usual.
Do you really want to help him get a motor working? Then make a video of your own, showing how the coil functions and what it's supposed to do. I will wager that mine performs electrically just as any other Bedini North Pole Motor coil of the same physical dimensions. I am a little uncertain about using the bolt for the core. We shall see how it works out, and if it doesn't work according to plan... .guess what, I'll wind another coil using my same #27 wire, unless you can PROVE ME WRONG by a demonstration of your own that illustrates a significant difference in performance due to my choice of wire gauge.
How to test the Bedini coil and circuit with no rotor, and what its performance looks like on the oscilloscope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ac0rbEc_0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ac0rbEc_0)
I'm still confused about these disc..
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 11, 2012, 03:10:56 AM
...snipped tk's asinine logical fallacies...
How to test the Bedini coil and circuit with no rotor, and what its performance looks like on the oscilloscope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ac0rbEc_0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ac0rbEc_0)
prove you wrong like i did regarding your hypothesis about mosfet performance? ::) your repetitive logical fallacies bore me.
idiot. he wants a rotor... and he doesn't have an oscilliscope and probably doesn't know how to use one. have you even listened to a word jhsmith has even said? and what exactly is your point? other than being a prick?
Come on dude.. I'm asking y'all please don't start a pis*in contest here. U have what u think is right so does he. I'm asking for ANY AND ALL INFO. If u or any one else has a different method that's fine there's more than one way to skin a cat. So if u have other info I really wanna hear it. I don't want to hear u both argue over witch ones is better. But I've asked the same question 2 times and haven't had a response due to the tread beeing cluttered with arguing.
So please if u have info even if its different than others I've got please give me details about it but if u must argue please do it on another thread. I'm hear to learn I thank everyone for any and all info they give. But I want to keep this thread friendly and informative. So please out of respect for me please keep the arguments somewhere else.
as you wish.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 11, 2012, 03:21:22 AM
I'm still confused about these disc..
I'm sorry, jhsmith87, but Wilby seems to be my own personal troll and he follows me from thread to thread with the same old same old tired and irrelevant stuff. I was hoping he would behave and not start up, but as you see..... it didn't work out that way. It's my own fault for peeking.... he's on my ignore lists and I usually don't even read his posts.
You ask about these discs..... the coil is wound on a form, typically called a bobbin. It's like a spool of thread. It has a cylinder portion (the core) which in my case is just a bolt, and it has the disks, the round ends that are disk-shaped that keep the wire from coming off the ends of the bolt. I used a hole saw to cut a couple of holes in a piece of thin plywood and kept the "holes"... the disk-shaped cutouts that wind up inside the hole saw. These I sanded smooth and used as the ends of my coil bobbin. It makes a thing like a thread spool: two disks and a bolt. With a bit of heatshrink tubing on the bolt so the disks are spaced apart correctly. Then I wound the wire strands onto the bolt, between the disks, and I also used one of the disks as supports for the wire ends, as you can see in the video.
You can see these, I hope, very clearly in the photo I posted and in the video I linked. And I also hope you can see the neon is flashing when the magnet triggers the transistor through the coil, and that the circuit is just as Bedini described in the diagram he drew himself that I posted. And I also hope that you can see that, in spite of Wilby's irrelevant objections, that the scope shots are just what is expected from a Bedini coil. The only part that is "iffy" in my mind is my use of the thin bolt for the core. I suggest you do whatever you like for your own core, and to keep Wilby happy, please don't refer to my coil as a "Bedini Coil"... since its core isn't made of finishing nails or welding rods.
Now..... I have found that bearing systems give people a lot of trouble if they do not have access to precision machine tools. My solution to this is to recommend, and use, pivot bearings made from setscrews and pointed shafts. These can be extremely low friction and are very easy to construct. The disadvantage is that they work best if the shaft is vertical rather than horizontal. Bedini's North Pole Motor is generally shown with a horizontal rotor shaft, for a rotor that is in a vertical plane. I intend to try to build my example motor with pivot bearings and a vertical shaft, with the rotor in the horizontal plane. This may not work out because of the side loads due to the magnet interactions with the single coil, so I may have to use bushings or ball bearings in spite of my plan. But... will I be attacked by trolls, nattering that this is therefore not a Bedini motor? Probably. However, they will probably be unable to tell me what the significant difference in performance might be. Especially when I use it to charge a battery or a capacitor..... as I already have done with the "no moving parts" version in a video I just posted.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 11, 2012, 01:12:52 AM
For some reason the attachment won't load on my phone. I don't really understand what u mean by disc. Did the wire get wrapped on the disc. And what do u mean by tested the transistor out. How did u do that and how do u know u passed or failed the test..
Glad u got your coils done. Wait on me to do mine now ha. I'll have the wire tomorrow. I guess I'll get at least 2lbs of 22 and 26g
I explained the disks in the previous post and they are clearly shown in the video: nothing more than the ends of the bobbin spool.
To test the transistor and the coil the easiest way is to put them into a working circuit and see if they work properly. If it fires the NE-2 at the appropriate time, then the transistor and coil are working ! So this is what I did. I had a 2n3055 mounted and wired up to a connector block from some earlier tinkering and so I know that transistor works. I hooked the new coil to it and stimulated it with the magnets and observed the neon pulsing. Therefore I know that the coil works, at least to pulse the transistor and fire. The oscilloscope traces confirm that I am not just seeing a flash, but I also am seeing the drive coil being pulsed by the main battery power just before the flash. I realize that you probably don't have an oscilloscope, but many people reading this thread probably do, and Bedini waveforms have been posted many times in many places. My illustration of the scopeshots, showing waveforms that look just like Bedini's, should convince anyone, (except the trolls) that the coil works, the transistor works, and the only reason why a rotor might not turn is because my core might not be adequate.... and to determine that I know of no other way than to build a rotor and test it, which I will probably do tomorrow.
Since you are starting from scratch, you could test your transistor with a battery and flashlight bulb as described earlier, or just forge ahead with confidence and build the complete circuit and test it as I showed in the video, with a drill spinning some magnets. Then when you build a rotor you will at least know that your circuit works and you just will need to find the right spacing between rotor magnets and coil core. You will probably find that the spacing is less critical with weaker magnets but you will need to be closer with weaker magnets and might need a stronger starting spin to get the motor running.
If you get two pounds of each gauge wire you will have enough to wind probably four complete coils or even more.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 11, 2012, 06:58:05 AM
I'm sorry, jhsmith87, but Wilby seems to be my own personal troll and he follows me from thread to thread with the same old same old tired and irrelevant stuff. I was hoping he would behave and not start up, but as you see..... it didn't work out that way. It's my own fault for peeking.... he's on my ignore lists and I usually don't even read his posts.
You ask about these discs..... the coil is wound on a form, typically called a bobbin. It's like a spool of thread. It has a cylinder portion (the core) which in my case is just a bolt, and it has the disks, the round ends that are disk-shaped that keep the wire from coming off the ends of the bolt. I used a hole saw to cut a couple of holes in a piece of thin plywood and kept the "holes"... the disk-shaped cutouts that wind up inside the hole saw. These I sanded smooth and used as the ends of my coil bobbin. It makes a thing like a thread spool: two disks and a bolt. With a bit of heatshrink tubing on the bolt so the disks are spaced apart correctly. Then I wound the wire strands onto the bolt, between the disks, and I also used one of the disks as supports for the wire ends, as you can see in the video.
You can see these, I hope, very clearly in the photo I posted and in the video I linked. And I also hope you can see the neon is flashing when the magnet triggers the transistor through the coil, and that the circuit is just as Bedini described in the diagram he drew himself that I posted. And I also hope that you can see that, in spite of Wilby's irrelevant objections, that the scope shots are just what is expected from a Bedini coil. The only part that is "iffy" in my mind is my use of the thin bolt for the core. I suggest you do whatever you like for your own core, and to keep Wilby happy, please don't refer to my coil as a "Bedini Coil"... since its core isn't made of finishing nails or welding rods.
Now..... I have found that bearing systems give people a lot of trouble if they do not have access to precision machine tools. My solution to this is to recommend, and use, pivot bearings made from setscrews and pointed shafts. These can be extremely low friction and are very easy to construct. The disadvantage is that they work best if the shaft is vertical rather than horizontal. Bedini's North Pole Motor is generally shown with a horizontal rotor shaft, for a rotor that is in a vertical plane. I intend to try to build my example motor with pivot bearings and a vertical shaft, with the rotor in the horizontal plane. This may not work out because of the side loads due to the magnet interactions with the single coil, so I may have to use bushings or ball bearings in spite of my plan. But... will I be attacked by trolls, nattering that this is therefore not a Bedini motor? Probably. However, they will probably be unable to tell me what the significant difference in performance might be. Especially when I use it to charge a battery or a capacitor..... as I already have done with the "no moving parts" version in a video I just posted.
sorry jhsmith... i'm done in your thread. tinselkoala continues his bullshit and took pokes at me in 3 out of his 4 paragraphs above. even after you politely asked the pissing contest to stop. out of respect for your request i'm not going to engage him but that also excludes me from assisting you because he wont stop with his constant strawman fallacies...
never did i say or claim any of the things he is now claiming or implying i have said... in point of fact all i did was ask him why he was going to call it a 'bedini coil' when he has totally deviated from bedini's schematic.
he is in fact so predictable i should have left him alone... but he named it that to poke my buttons. as he admitted when he said he did it to piss me off... ::)
good luck with your project.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 11, 2012, 07:12:44 AM
To test the transistor and the coil the easiest way is to put them into a working circuit and see if they work properly. If it fires the NE-2 at the appropriate time, then the transistor and coil are working ! So this is what I did. I had a 2n3055 mounted and wired up to a connector block from some earlier tinkering and so I know that transistor works. I hooked the new coil to it and stimulated it with the magnets and observed the neon pulsing.
I wonder if this helps as well:
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/tran.htm
I'm not asking and I hope you don't leave all I'm asking from anyone here is information if your information is different from anothers that don't make either 1 of yours wrong. I sincerely hope you both can understand that I'd rather just to get helpful information and hope that you could put your personal differences aside for a while there's no need for either 1 of you to leave or stop helping me simply because you can't get along with the other.
I really don't help you leave I would like to hear what information or directions you may have. And if you feel uncomfortable or just don't want to post any information in this thread I would be glad to hear your information through a private message.
But back to the point. I'll be going get the spool wire today. The guy that I get it from doesn't have a large variety of sizes. It's usually an even number gauge, like 18 gauge 20 22 24 and so on. I wasn't able to get the neon at Radio Shack yesterday. Or anything else for that matter. I was rushed for time and didn't realize how late it was. Very nice video I think I should be able to follow along with that my only concern is the neon. Is there any way I can make it without the neon or with something in place of the neon or any other type of bulb that I might find at all hardware or auto parts store.
Back to the wire please inform me what day does she get I was thinking 26 and 22 gauge. Also let me know about my situation with the neon. Oh and I almost forgot I do have a bit of a situation with resistors as you know I got 1 eighth wat resistors 1 k 100 K and if I'm not mistaken 470 ohms. But all were fourth wat or eighth wat. But as I said before I do have many resistors from the old electronics parts. So if the resistors I got are a big problem and cannot be fixed please let me know the color band on the resistors I need. Tesla keep the videos coming man I found a very informative thank you.
okay guys along with getting the magnet wire, I think I might make a trip to Radio Shack today. So I'm asking again before I head down there, can someone please tell me if and what bulb I can find a Radio Shack to use. Also the exact correct resistors needed. 100 ohm 1/4 watt 1/2 watt 100k ohm 1/4, 1/2 watt or what. And if they don't have those because I was down there the other day and didn't see any 100 ohms. So if I don't find what I need what else can I get to substitute.
guess what happened!!! i went to the place that i used to work rebuilding electric motors, and talked to the guy a bit told him what i was trying to do, and turns out he is a fan of bedini. we went to the back to see if he had any of the 23 and 26g i needed. and he had rolls and rolls of small wire, 15lbs each roll.
he didnt have any 26g, so i didnt know what to do, i was stuck should i have gone to 27g or 25g. he had a roll of 25g right there so i went with it. so it ended up being 30lbs wire total. 15lbs of each.
i asked him what he wanted for it, and he said if you'll bring the motor by when your done you can have it. ;D he also gave me a hand full of welding rods and an old spool that had a much smaller inner diameter, it seems a bit to long, but it will have to do..
can you believe it 30lbs of wire FOR FREE!!
Well, you've got plenty of wire !! I expect my nine-pound spool of #27 to last me a lifetime; I've already wound a couple of TC secondaries and a bunch of smaller coils like the 800x3 non-Bedini coil and it looks like I've barely scratched the surface of that big spool.
So you have #23 and #25? Those are almost the same size; I hope that meets with the official approval of the Bedini-monitors. But don't worry, I'm sure your coil will be fine.
Like I said earlier, you can always build up the resistance value you need out of smaller or larger resistors. 1/4 Watt are probably fine for this application, I just hate to use tiny little components when bigger ones will do. Just feel the resistor when it's in use; if it seems too warm to you, change to a larger Watt rating. Especially if it turns brown and starts smoking.... !
For the neon: based on my experience in the video with this coil, I am gonna say that it IS necessary. I was rather surprised at the energy in the spikes, and these will destroy your transistor eventually if they are not channeled away or short-circuited by the neon between emitter and collector. Just get the cheapest "120V Neon Indicator Lamp" from RS, like
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062374
Be sure to get NEON.... they have several other low-voltage lamp assemblies that look the same almost but are 12 volt LED or incandescent... these will NOT work for your purposes.
The neon that you get will have inside it a NE-2 type bulb like I have shown, and a series resistor to limit its current when used as an indicator lamp for a 120 volt appliance. You can either use the whole thing as somebody showed in a picture earlier, or carefully take it apart and just use the neon bulb itself without the resistor.
If you start using the circuit to charge batteries you can probably leave the neon out, because the battery charging will tend to limit the spike voltage. But if you are just running the motor I'd put the neon in.
ok, well looks like i am not going to make it to ratshack today, but i was at walmart and seen a light bulb rated for 120v. it was a small hallogen bulb, not like one for a lamp in the house you plug in the wall, this one looks more like a flashlight bulb. i got it any way, it was only a few bucks. but i am sure that will not work right?
ok you just said something there. if i have a charge battery hooked up i may not need the neon... so since i cant get my hands on a neon not any time that i see to be soon, since we are both building one together lets make one that will charge some thing. say.... a cap if that is a good enough component to charge, if it is not could we run off a 9v and charge a 9v?
the reason i keep saying something about a 9v is that is the only battery i have more than one of. actually i dont even have a 12v battery. all i have to put out 12v is a power supply that plugs in the wall and is made for you to plug cigarette lighter things into, it also has two prongs for + & - it says on the box output 12v 5a.
i dont know if this may be any good, but i have some lipo batteries. some one and two cell lipos, 1 cell is 3.7v and 2 cell is 7.4v. i have a battery charger, i bought it to charge the lipos, but it has many settings on there, you can set it to so many mah cut off, nicad, nihm, lipo, battery and PB battery (whatever that is). i also have a car jump starter, i dont know if you know what that is, but you plug it into the cigarette lighter, or wall outlet, let it charge, and if your car battery is dead one morning you plug it into the cigarette lighter and turn the key on about 2 minutes, and it jump starts the car. i am almost sure its 12v nihm battery inside, i know its 5a out, and i believe its either 2500mah or 5000mah. (i know thats a huge difference but what can i say, its on of the two).
Well....OK.....
First: the bulb you got with a filament in it is not useful for the purpose of the neon. The neon is like a reverse fuse. It does not conduct at all until it "fires" then it has almost zero resistance. So what happens is this: when the coil shuts off, the collapsing magnetic field makes a BIG high voltage spike. It is very very short duration but can be hundreds or even over a thousand volts in this spike. If this is allowed to get to the transistor it can damage it. So the neon sits in there, and as long as the voltage it sees is below 90 or 100 volts or so, it is like an open, disconnected part of the circuit. No current flows through it. But as soon as the voltage hits its "turnon" value, the neon fires and becomes like a straight wire, with near zero resistance. So..... the spike is channeled thru the neon, from the collector to the emitter directly without going thru the transistor.
So you should be able to see why any bulb with a filament in it won't work. You need the neon.
Second: I think you should save your 9v batteries for portable demonstrations. This circuit requires very little current to run, so your 12 volt, 5 A power supply with the cigarette lighter outlets will be perfect. The motor will only be drawing a few tens of milliamps, probably. I would not recommend using the LiPos and definitely do NOT try to charge the LiPos with this circuit, you will probably ruin them and start a dangerous fire. PB means "Lead-acid" battery like your car battery or my little 12 volt 5 A-H battery.
Third: It would be a good idea to have the neon in there even if you are charging something. I am really impressed with these spikes; they are potent for sure.
You can certainly charge a capacitor; I'd rather you did that than try to charge a 9v battery right at first. Use a cap with a low capacitance at first, like 1 uF or less, and be sure to use one with a high enough voltage rating like 200 volts at least. Monitor the voltage on the cap with a voltmeter because it will charge up quickly. Once you have some experience handling charged capacitors then you can move to larger capacitances but be sure not to exceed the voltage rating on electrolytic caps, or use the wrong polarity: they can explode. Yes, actually explode.
To charge something from the Bedini circuit I posted, just hook the anode of a rectifier diode like 1n4002 to the collector of the transistor. Hook the cathode of the diode to the positive pole of your charge thing, and hook the negative pole of your charge thing to the emitter of the transistor (ground, negative rail, negative connection to power supply).
Fourth: I got mine running. I made the rotor out of a Folger's coffee jar lid, and used two magnets 180 degrees apart on the inside of the lid. Actually 4 magnets, two ceramic bar magnets supplemented with two little NdB button magnets on the backside. I used a brass screw, cut the head off and pointed it on both ends, for the rotor shaft. I used a couple of 1/4-20 setscrews for the pivot bearings. It draws about 60-70 mA while running at full speed, and takes about 30 seconds to charge a 260 uF capacitor to 160 volts using the hookup I described above .... a scary amount of energy when sparked. The neon does go out when charging the capacitor..... but I'd still recommend using the neon anyway to protect the transistor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKN0tSLqIYc
I can't believe you're done already. I'm just now starting the coil. So to keep from getting confused I will to simply start 1 thing after you explain to me how to be done. What's up finish that I will move on to the next thing.
Seriously I can't believe you're already finished. It must really be simple and I'm just not getting something. But hopefully after you walk me through it as I build it thanks by the way. Maybe I can actually get 1 running this time. After all that magnet wire wasn't really free I do have to show him the completed motor haha.
I'm just really hoping I can get this done soon. I guess I'll have to go get that neon bulb after all.
Today must have been my day. I got that wire for free, autozone and a car audio store both gave me several different size spools. Then on my way home from work I stop at my buddies pawn shop he had an old cRT TV. There was a sticker on it that said will take any offer. I asked him and we plugged it up works fine. I gave him 2 dollars for it. I figure there's at least 2 dollars worth of good usable electronics inside, not to mention the magnets in wire.
Won't let me edit that last post. But I want to ask you about the coil. when I'm wrapping the 2 wires do I need to twist them together so that's a twist as they make each turn. Or would it be okay 2 just wrap them side by side without twisting before they go on the spool
No, you don't need to twist the wires at all. And you don't have to be obsessively neat, either. Just try to wind up with a fairly even wind all along your core.
Here's something that might be of interest.
I have a bunch of 2n3055 transistors, some new and some used, some from different manufacturers. I found several in there that run the motor just fine but will not light up the neon at all. These transistors must be partly failed inside or just not as good as the others. I've been swapping and testing transistors all afternoon. Just because a transistor won't light the neon, it still might work to drive the rotor. There is only a tiny difference in the scope traces so I don't know what the explanation is, except that the transistors might be failing partially at high voltages but can still work OK for the 12-volt drive pulse.
This makes it a bit hard to test for you. I think you should have a transistor that does light up the neon, but bear in mind that some transistors of the same type might not work the same way. You might get a running motor without lighting the neon, but of course it's better if you do have a transistor that will light it up.
(It is possible to light the neon between Base and Collector, but that's not the way you want to have it hooked up. The right way is from Emitter to Collector.)
Anyhow.... yes, it is a really easy circuit, but it does have its subtleties. Like the coil phasing thing. Don't forget to try reversing the leads of one coil. Just go ahead and try all four possible combinations of hookup for the two coils. Two ways should work and two won't.
On the TV: BE CAREFUL !!
There are big capacitors in there that can hold a LETHAL charge for a long time, days or weeks even. You can discharge the caps carefully by using a jumper with a 1 k resistor and shorting the cap terminals to ground. Keep one hand in your pocket until you know all the caps are discharged.
There are a bunch of good parts in there. The flyback transformer is what I always pull out first, you can see what I do with it by looking at my YT channel for "extreme high voltage jacob's ladder". There are also many useful capacitors and other components in there too.
If you take apart a lot of stuff you might like to get a "desoldering pump" at Rat Shack. It's a handheld spring-plunger suction thing that sucks up the molten solder when you are trying to free a component from a circuit. Very handy and will pay for itself the first time you take apart a TV circuit board.
thanks for telling me that the coils don't have to be perfect. Because I read in a posting somewhere that's a corals had to be wrapped very neatly. Since then have been obsessing over having them perfect. Right now I'm just finishing up because I'll I'm at 600 turns right now I think I'll go to 900. I'll be able to get my phone take some pictures of what I've done so far maybe tomorrow but it's only the coil.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 11, 2012, 11:50:49 PM
On the TV: BE CAREFUL !!
There are big capacitors in there that can hold a LETHAL charge for a long time, days or weeks even. You can discharge the caps carefully by using a jumper with a 1 k resistor and shorting the cap terminals to ground. Keep one hand in your pocket until you know all the caps are discharged.
There are a bunch of good parts in there. The flyback transformer is what I always pull out first, you can see what I do with it by looking at my YT channel for "extreme high voltage jacob's ladder". There are also many useful capacitors and other components in there too.
If you take apart a lot of stuff you might like to get a "desoldering pump" at Rat Shack. It's a handheld spring-plunger suction thing that sucks up the molten solder when you are trying to free a component from a circuit. Very handy and will pay for itself the first time you take apart a TV circuit board.
Yea I've been playing with caps since Jr high. I must say I been shocked more than my share.. I have no clue what's in a TV this is the first one I'm taking apart. I did take a microwave apart not long ago. I love that transformer in them. I think I've seen a few of your videos before. I been watching clips on yt about circuits for a while the bedini is what I been watching most though
I just tried mine with an ordinary 9V battery. It runs fine, draws 20-30 mA at speed, but doesn't light the neon. So I'm sticking with 12 volts and new stock 2n3055 rather than old worn out ones.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 11, 2012, 11:52:46 PM
thanks for telling me that the coils don't have to be perfect. Because I read in a posting somewhere that's a corals had to be wrapped very neatly. Since then have been obsessing over having them perfect. Right now I'm just finishing up because I'll I'm at 600 turns right now I think I'll go to 900. I'll be able to get my phone take some pictures of what I've done so far maybe tomorrow but it's only the coil.
Heh..... I can hear Wilby gnashing his teeth already. ;D
You see..... this is supposed to be an overunity motor, right. It is supposed to charge up a battery, then you swap the batteries, run on the one you charged, and charge the one you were running on, lather rinse repeat, forever.
BUT.... nobody has ever been able to really do that, except Bedini.... ::)
So people make up all kinds of reasons. I didn't use the right gauge wire, or special unobtanium welding rods with creon sulphate flux, or left handed finishing nails. So... if you do use the right wire and the right core, it won't work because of some other reason, like not having your coil wrapped perfectly. But I tell you this: those reasons are bogus, because they have never actually been tested to see if they make any difference. How could you test, if you don't have an overunity motor for reference to begin with? So people seem to believe that even the most irrelevant details are important, like the color of the sandpaper used to smooth the mounting board, or the difference between #26 and #27 wire. Well, if overunity hinges on a detail like that.... fine, show me the sausages, I'd love to see someone demonstrate two coils with different wire gauges, one OU and one not, the only difference being the wire gauge. Or the neatness of the wrapping.
But when winding electromagnets or pulse-sense coils, it actually might be better NOT to be superneat with all windings perfectly parallel and overlapped like a machine. That kind of neat obsessive winding _might_ have some effect at high frequencies, sure, and a fast spike has high frequency components in it. But still..... I maintain that for this kind of coil it's not worth the time and effort, UNTIL someone shows that a "perfect" coil works better in some way than one that is wound randomly with the same length and number of turns of wire.
And guess what.... my "trifilar" coil (which is not trifilar electrically) with the wrong gauge wires and the thin bolt for a core, and a rotor with only two magnet positions, works just fine and makes the right waveforms and charges external caps just fine and until someone can prove to me that it's not, I am calling it a Bedini North Pole Motor and claiming that it works just like Bedini's own does, with no significant differences.
A little trick I learned when working with Orbette (the Steorn pulse motor of the third kind) was to use a bias magnet on the core. This works here too! By placing a small NdB magnet on the core rod extension at the location indicated in the picture below, I can get a 10 percent increase in top RPM, going from about 1000 to about 1100 RPM with 13 volts in. Turn the bias magnet around and I get a reduction in RPM.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 12, 2012, 12:18:02 AM
Heh..... I can hear Wilby gnashing his teeth already. ;D
nice strawman... ::)
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 12, 2012, 12:18:02 AM
But still..... I maintain that for this kind of coil it's not worth the time and effort, UNTIL someone shows that a "perfect" coil works better in some way than one that is wound randomly with the same length and number of turns of wire.
and what you assert without evidence will be denied without evidence...
is this like when you 'maintained' there would be no difference in mosfet performance? or when you 'maintained' you knew more about mosfet substitution than i? how did those assertions turn out again? oh yeah... you threw a little hissyfit and disappeared for a year. ::) but still... until someone (or some troll) PROVES otherwise i maintain that this latest assertion of yours is much the same. ::)
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 12, 2012, 12:18:02 AM
And guess what.... my "trifilar" coil (which is not trifilar electrically) with the wrong gauge wires and the thin bolt for a core, and a rotor with only two magnet positions, works just fine and makes the right waveforms and charges external caps just fine and until someone can prove to me that it's not, I am calling it a Bedini North Pole Motor and claiming that it works just like Bedini's own does, with no significant differences.
are you going to call it a replication again? ::)
and again... what you assert without evidence will be denied without evidence. ::)
and isn't it about time for you to pimp your shoddy little tesla coil? ::)
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 10, 2012, 06:26:17 AM
But this is not the place to talk about those kinds of things yet. We are trying to help jhsmith87 get his circuit doing something...
Yes. But how about you starting up a new thread on your idea?
well honestly i feel like his intentions when he mentions those new ideas are him trying to give me tips and helping me make the best of my build. and thats how i take it. i put the title of the thread as needs any and all help, because that is exactly what i need. even if i am still working and learning on building my motor, i could use all the info i can get, even if it is some thing that is just a new idea that helps improve an already completed motor.
i thank him for all his help, and tips. he seems to be the only one that is patient enough to understand that i am like a child when i come to trying to build this thing, and continues to help me with every question i ask, not only explaining it but posting pics and videos, this is the most help i have received in the 3 months i have been researching this motor.
you guys have help me as well, and please dont think i am trying to take sides or dont appreciate the help you have posted in the past because i really do.. like i said i need any and all help. if you feel like you know something that i should know please post it, if you have pics of yours, or detailed instructions, or even videos, please post it..
again i dont want to seem as if i am taking sides, taking up for any one person, or anything like that.
i am just glad that he is giving me all this info, it is really helping me alot, and if you have different info please feel free to post it, u cant ever have to much info right??
i just dont want a thread i started in order to get help on this build to turn into a flame war on what suggestions are best, what is the right way and all that.. bottom line is, i am sure you all have or have had a working motor of the kind i am trying to build. and i bet anything you didnt all build them identical. like i said before there is more than one way to skin a cat. just cause you start from the head of the cat and he starts from the feet dont make you or him any more right.
if you have made one of these motors and it works then this thread is for you to show me in detail (if you can) how you did it and what you used. not to argue over who's is right or wrong, if it works then it is RIGHT (for this thread anyway).
so please start a new thread called debate over correct way to build a bedini, or something like that. i am really just not wanting any one here arguing. if you dont want to help me, and show me how you done it, then please just dont post anything.
i hope every one will take notion to my request, and stop the bickering, and all collectively give me some incite on how i could make mine.
sorry if i upset anyone, of if anyone didnt like something i said, my goal here was not to attack, and/or make anyone feel in anyway as if i dont want their help cause i do really need it. but instead my goal was to try to stop the back and forth bickering, and try to have everyone understand clearly that i would appreciate it if you could do that else where, and use this thread to just show and explain your build.
thank you. and please keep posting, i dont want anyone not to post again because they feel as if they're advice is not wanted, it is.
Quote from: TinselKoala on October 12, 2012, 01:27:38 AM
A little trick I learned when working with Orbette (the Steorn pulse motor of the third kind) was to use a bias magnet on the core. This works here too! By placing a small NdB magnet on the core rod extension at the location indicated in the picture below, I can get a 10 percent increase in top RPM, going from about 1000 to about 1100 RPM with 13 volts in. Turn the bias magnet around and I get a reduction in RPM.
please explain that pic to me. what are those big wooden spool looking things doing under what i am assuming is the rotor, and if that is the rotor would the wooden things under it hit the coil when spinning? if you take those off when it is on, then arnt the "arms" of the rotor so long they pass over the top of the coil instead of passing in front of the core?
i am confused on that set up.
got my coil done now... about 1000 turns!! should do the job right?
i will get a picture of it up soon.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 12, 2012, 10:56:21 AM
please explain that pic to me. what are those big wooden spool looking things doing under what i am assuming is the rotor, and if that is the rotor would the wooden things under it hit the coil when spinning? if you take those off when it is on, then arnt the "arms" of the rotor so long they pass over the top of the coil instead of passing in front of the core?
i am confused on that set up.
Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear. The red round thing is the rotor: a Folger's Coffee Jar lid. I think you are talking about the top brace. Here, these photos should help you see what's happening.
In both photos, the motor is actually running at about 1200 RPM; the camera flash freezes the motion.
(I finally blew my best 2n3055, running at 36 volts input and powering two neon Ring Oscillators... and on a Friday evening too.... )
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 12, 2012, 03:09:43 PM
got my coil done now... about 1000 turns!! should do the job right?
i will get a picture of it up soon.
More is not always better. Just in case, and since you've got all that wire, I think you should wind another coil, with between 450 and 800 turns. 625 is a good number, right in the middle of Bedini's suggested range.
With your 1000 turns you might not need 680 ohms for the base resistor. I'm actually using 270 ohms in mine, since my windings have a little higher resistance on their own as well.
Okay cool I got it now I've got my coil I am a rotor done now. Heading to Radio Shack right now to get the neon bulbs. Also some resistors I guess I'll get half watt and 1/4 watt.
What watt
Good. You'll be up and running before you know it.
Here are some observations I've made that might be useful.
Transistors: Not every 2n3055 is created equal, it seems. I have a handful in my parts bin, some new and some pulled from equipment and replaced during some repairs. I tried them all in the Bedini motor, and the amount of HV spikes they produce varies widely. I have one here that runs the motor just fine, but makes no high voltage, or rather the HV is limited to just over 100 V. This transistor must be partially failed, even though at 12-20 volts input it still works on the slow motor drive pulses (15-30 Hz or so). I have several of the newer ones installed in Joule Thiefs and didn't want to take them apart, but the transistor I used right at first for the Bedini motor must have been a lucky pick because it was the one, out of six possibles, that made the highest voltage spikes... and I blew it last night.
Some of these transistors I have will only light the Neon when the rotor is spinning really fast and it's running on 24 volts or more. But the first one would fire the neon from just a little spin of the rotor wheel, and at 9 volts input. And one doesn't light the neon at all no matter how fast you spin, but it runs the motor fine anyway.
I thought, before now, that the transistor could be good or bad, and if it was bad it wouldn't even run the motor. But that's not the case; you can run the motor and still not get the HV spikes if your transistor is partially shorted.
I haven't seen my transistor get warm, even the one that failed didn't heat up, so the heat sink isn't needed, but I find that it looks "cool" and also makes the transistor easier to handle, so I always use them even if it's not strictly necessary.
Current: It's very helpful to monitor the input current with an inline milliammeter. You will know right away if there 's something wrong with the transistor, or if the motor is firing, even if the neon isn't blinking. The circuit draws essentially nothing when the rotor isn't spinning, so if you see anything other than about zero current when it's not spinning, something is wrong. And when you give it the starting spin, you can see on the milliammeter when the motor begins to fire, it will indicate a few mA if it's firing. If it stays at zero then there is something wrong.
Starting the motor: I have to give mine a pretty good spin to get it firing enough to start accelerating and running. It doesn't always start on the first spin, but if you spin it good and fast several times and still don't get a run, even when you know it's firing (from the ammeter and/or the neon) then there is something wrong. This motor produces tiny torque when it's starting up, it can barely get out of its own way, so if there is any drag it won't start spinning even if it's firing when you give it the start spin.
Coil orientation (angle): I've varied the angle, pointing the coil ahead or behind the straight radius, and I can't see a big effect on RPM until you get so far off it just stops firing. I don't know if there is supposed to be any directional bias, I can't find any, my motor runs equally well in either direction. I think you need to be very close to the rotor with the coil core; my clearance is less than 1/4 inch to the magnets, and they are _inside_ the jar lid, so the actual running clearance is about half that for my motor.
Coil wire phasing: The Bedini diagram shows how to wire the "top" and "bottom" ends of the coil. If you spin and don't get any current or flashes, try reversing one coil's wires at a time. There are 4 possible ways to wire the coils to the circuit: two will work and two will not, and of the two that do work, one might be slightly better. I get the same RPM for the same input voltage both ways but one way gives me about 10-20 percent less current draw, so that's the one I use.
As I think of more stuff I'll post it.
Don't worry, I'm not going to be doing a full-on investigation of the Bedini motor. There are plenty of people out there who have gotten very very deep into the variations and effects and various versions; looking at YT I see dozens of quality builds and great experiments. There won't be much I could possibly add to that knowledge base. I'm just tinkering, and trying to help beginners get started, but I'm just a Bedini beginner myself so don't expect either Free Energy or a comprehensive "debunk".... I'll just be playing around.
I have decided to sacrifice two of my good 12-v SLA batteries to the Bedini daemon, though. Once I get a new transistor that works optimally, I'll start running on one and charging the other one, and see how long I can swap them around before they both die.
Just got back from the shack got my neons resistors and they had a bunch of transistors on clearance.:only 2n222 though. I got 100 for 5 dollars.
I got half watt 220 ohm resistors. That should be fine huh?
Well good thing I got a few transistors. I'm about to b back home and I'm going to start worjin on the circuit. Hopefully this time I'll get it working. But I gotta say I don't have a lot of faith.
You don't need faith, all you need is patience and a bunch of spare parts.
I presume the transistors you got are 2n2222a types, little black plastic ones not little metal tophat cans. You got a good deal, but what are you going to do with all those transistors?
I use 2n2222a types myself as relay drivers or inverters; they are one of the types that are very useful for general purposes like switching and amplification, a little higher performance current-wise than the 2n3904 type. I don't think they can take the strain of the Bedini high voltage, though.
I just came back from RS myself and I am not too pleased. I got two 2n3055 transistors, they look good, have manufacturer's label on them, usually a good sign ... but one failed within two minutes of installation, at an input voltage of 24 volts, which I can use with no problems at all on all my old ones. It stopped switching and went into an oscillation mode that made high-freq waveforms very similar to a Joule Thief.... but at high current, like one amp, and no drive pulses. I could hear the oscillation, increasing in frequency like a bomb about to go off... so I pulled it and put the other new one in. I'm kind of scared to run it up to 24 volts..... I can't afford to be tossing away three dollars every time a transistor fails. But it's pulsing fine, a little weak on the HV, but it does run both ring oscillator loads at 16 or 17 volts input.
I think that if I hadn't gotten lucky that first time and picked the best transistor out of my bunch to start with, I might have concluded that my motor didn't work. Without instruments like the scope and the multimeter it would have been hard to tell at first. So the moral of the story is.... DON'T GIVE UP.
I just got the transistors cause it was such a good deal. I could at least use them in the jt.
That is true, although the 2n3904 works at a bit lower voltage. However, as I always say, you can't be too rich or too thin, or have too many 2n2222a's.
I found this website that has more information about Bedini motors and variants than anyone needs to know, and he's got schematics and also drawings of his circuits for you to look at, from the simple ones that we are dealing with to ones that are much more complicated.
http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Schematics.html (http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Schematics.html)
I've just used my motor to charge up two AA batteries that were depleted to below the point of lighting a JT. Now they will. I charged them in series; they started at below 2.4 volts for the pair and I stopped charging when they read 3.5 volts under charge, then they relaxed down to about 3.1 volts. This was not a serious attempt at charging; I'll use the SLAs for that once I'm happy with the circuit. I don't have a tuning pot in mine yet, I have to put one in and try it, to see if I think it's necessary.
The page I linked above has all kinds of different core materials. I like the "black sand" mixed with epoxy, it has a suitably cosmic connection, since much of the black magnetic sand one can harvest by the methods he lists, is actually micrometeorite debris.
Oh, I forgot to mention... I went to a 470 Ohm, one Watt resistor for the base resistor, after I looked at the B - E waveform on my scope. It too has large HV spikes, and the max rated B-E voltage of the transistor is only supposed to be seven volts. It's a good thing the spikes are short duration.
Ok.... .now I've started using my 2, 12 V 5 A-H SLA batteries. I'm running on one, called "B1", and when it hits 11 volts I'll take it out, put "B2" in there to run, and hook up "B1" to be charged. We'll see what happens.
I also decided to try the variable pot - light bulb combo for the base resistor. I have a good "Type J" pot that is 2.2 K, so I put it in series with a small light bulb and a 10R resistor as shown in the Bedini variant diagram below. This allows "tuning" the circuit, and I can show on the oscilloscope just what this tuning does. It does indeed have a "sweet spot" or narrow range of resistances for best performance. The basic pot setting varies the duty cycle, that is, the length of time that the Drive pulse is "on". So if you turn the pot one way, the duty cycle decreases and the motor slows down. If you turn the pot the other way, the duty cycle increases and the motor speeds up BUT--- you quickly get to a point where the High Voltage spike decreases in amplitude, in other words the charge rate will drop off and your High Voltage devices won't work properly. So there is a sweet spot for the base resistance, and I imagine this changes with winding turns number and overall circuit resistance (wire size) and also input voltage.
I'll shoot a short video showing the effect of varying the base resistance on the scope trace from Collector wrt Ground (emitter), in other words across the neon.
ETA: there are so many different diagrams. Some show a 10 R and some show a 100 R.... but since it's the total resistance that matters here and you have the pot, you can use whatever is handy in that range I think. Obviously with 100 R in there I am not going to be able to get my motor to the HV decrease point of 73 ohms. A resistor of some value should be in there to limit current if you inadvertently turn the pot to its zero resistance value.
OK, here are some numbers from the Base resistor tuning test.
I am using the "B1" battery which is at 12.61 volts under the running load. I put a small 12 volt auto dome light bulb in the base resistor, it measures 8.8 ohms cold. I put the 10 ohm resistor and the 2.2K ohm pot, all in series. This then is the total Base resistor.
I start the motor and let it come up to stable speed. Then I tune the pot, first for the "sweet spot" of best running, max RPM. Then I disconnect the power, unsolder one end of the total Base resistor and measure its value with the Fluke 83 DMM.
Then I resolder the resistor, re-hook up the power and restart, allow speed to stabilize, then I tune for the "multiple pulses" point, disconnect, unsolder, measure, resolder, restart.
Then I tune for the HV dropping point, ditto.
Here are the results:
Sweet Spot: 1125 RPM, 311.3 Ohms total Base resistor, 80 mA current draw from battery.
Multiple Pulses: RPM weak and decreasing, 1554 Ohms total Base resistor, 50 mA current draw.
HV Decrease: RPM not recorded but near 1000 and dropping, 72.9 Ohms total Base resistor, 110 mA current draw.
The motor would not start from reasonable starting spin at the "Multiple Pulse" setting, and would start only with difficulty at the "HV Decrease" setting. The added light bulb is dark, but starts glowing dimly, as the resistance is decreased, just before the HV Decrease value.
So to tune for the sweet spot without a scope, start with the resistance at around 500 ohms, then turn the resistance lower until the little bulb just barely starts to glow: this is the HV Decrease point. Turn the resistance up from this point until you hear the sound change (Multiple Pulses, I can hear the difference easily) and RPM drops, then back off on the pot about 1/3 of the way back to the HV Decrease point. This will be close to your "sweet spot" and should give a current draw about halfway between the values at HV Decrease and Multiple Pulse points.
Yea I been on that site before. Thanks for all that info but I think your a bit ahead of me ha. Yesterday I got lazy and didn't do anything. Today I'm going to work on the circuit. But let me just be clear..and make sure I've got this right. Now the two wires that are on the bottom of the coil or beginning of the coil one goes to the base and one goes to positive battery post.
Then the two wires at top of the coil or the wires that are the end of the coil. I goes to the collector and one goes to negative buss right?
The coil has one thick wire winding and one thin wire winding, right? Top and bottom make no sense to me, all my wires come out one end of the coil. Start and finish make more sense, but even that doesn't really matter much.
The thick wire is the drive coil and the thin wire is the sense coil.
One wire from the THICK wire coil goes to the battery postive terminal and no where else.
The other wire from the THICK wire coil goes to the transistor collector.
One wire from the THIN wire coil goes to the transistor BASE resistor and thru that to the Base. The other wire from the THIN coil goes to the transistor EMITTER which is also connected to the negative battery terminal.
If the motor does not run and you see NO CURRENT on your milliammeter when you try to spin it to start, try reversing the THIN coil wires only. You should see 10 or 20 milliAmps when the coil fires if the wiring is correct, even if the motor doesn't startup and run.
There are four possible ways to connect the two coils. Two will work and two will not. Of the two that do work, one might work slightly better. Once you have found one of the ways that works, to get to the other way that works you reverse the polarities of BOTH coils. But the thin wire coil always goes between emitter to base resistor, and the thick wire coil always goes between battery positive to collector.
To charge another battery, it goes like this: Collector > diode anode, diode cathode > charge battery positive, charge battery negative > main circuit battery positive.
OK I got ya.. yea I should have said start and finish I guess
Tuning the base resistance, and its effect on the circuit performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2yx-07r77s
Very nice video.. good job.
Where did u get the bearing and shaft for your rotor?
Sorry, I didn't mean to overwhelm you. I've been meaning to build one of these for a long long time and you finally gave me an excuse to do it.
The shaft is a brass screw. I cut off the head, chucked it in a drill and ran it against some sandpaper to make the points. The "bearings" are just 1/4-20 setscrews. The setscrews are in threaded holes in the base and the top brace. The points of the shaft ride in the conical indentations in the ends of the setscrews (not the wrench end). The shaft screw and the setscrews and some nuts and washers are about 2 dollars worth of parts from the Home Depot. I had everything on hand in my junk box. This kind of bearing is very sensitive to end play; I even have to adjust it a little as the shaft gets longer when the room temperature increases, I guess. That's why the Allen wrench is sitting in the top screw. This is a disadvantage for sure, but I can live with it.
I thought about using a shaft with ball bearings from the local hobby shop, but I didn't want to spend any money if it wasn't necessary. But you can get good cheap ball bearings and shafts to match in the Helicopter parts section of the hobby shop. I like the "Align" brand, 5mm shafts and bearings for the TRex 450 electric helicopter. They are sturdy and cheap, small enough for these projects and available world-wide. For under ten dollars you can get a package of 3 nice 5mm shafts and a couple of 5x10 bearings. The problem here is mounting the bearings properly to a base, and attaching the rotor to the shaft. But if you are using a skateboard wheel you already have all that taken care of and you just need a shaft. Look in the hardware store for threaded rod stock and bar stock, there will be a bolt or threaded rod you can use as an axle for your wheel.
I have many rc helicopters planes and cars I have many bearings lots of 5mm ones but no shaft that will really fit in them other than shafts on the rc like drive shafts and stuff. But no way to mount it
Yep, that's why I did the pivot bearings. Much easier to make, but sensitive to end play adjustment, that's why the Allen wrench is in there in the picture.
I made one pulse motor a couple of years ago using the main gear/shaft unit from an EFlite Blade helicopter but I can't recall how I mounted the ball bearings for it.
I DID IT!!! Holly crap!! I can't believe I finally got it! Thank u so much for helping me. I was getting so aggrivated. But it finally works.. only thing is I put in 12v and only get 10.8v at best. Is this OK? I can't read amps cause my meter is messed up. Does it have less volts but high amps?
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 14, 2012, 06:10:56 PM
I DID IT!!! Holly crap!! I can't believe I finally got it! Thank u so much for helping me. I was getting so aggrivated. But it finally works.. only thing is I put in 12v and only get 10.8v at best. Is this OK? I can't read amps cause my meter is messed up. Does it have less volts but high amps?
Congratulations !! I'd like to see a video or photo if you can take one.
First, check your meter's fuse. Many people blow the fuse in the meter's amp circuit and don't realize it. Open up the back and look around for a small fuse. It might be soldered into the board but it will be removable and replaceable.
Second.... the output of the motor is HIGH VOLTAGE but in very short spikes. You will not be able to read them properly on a normal DMM. If your motor is working it _probably_ is also making the high voltage. Do you get your neon flashing at all? If so, then the HV is probably there and you will be able to charge a battery with it, most likely. Try first with a capacitor. Find an electrolytic capacitor of at least 200 volt rating. The capacitance isn't that important, try to use one with 10 or 20 microFarads. Hook it up just like a battery to the motor's charge output, respecting the polarity of the cap just like it was a battery. On most small electrolytics the NEGATIVE pole is marked with a stripe or band. Monitor the voltage across the cap so you can see it build up. If the motor is working the cap will charge quickly so be sure to stop before it exceeds its voltage rating....caps can blow up. (The neon likely won't flash while the load is connected: mine doesn't.)
Carefully discharge the cap by shorting it with a jumper cable and a 1K resistor before handling it....
Good luck, and keep me posted with what you try out. I just wound another coil, with three strands of #27 acting as the "thick" wire, all wrapped around a core made of pieces of soft iron wire bundled together, 650 turns, and then over that I wound the sense coil of one #27 strand, 700 turns. After I do this battery charging experiment I'll compare the two coils and see what varies.
Yea my neon on the collector was working. I had to take the neon of the base before it worked. I don't really have a decent platform yet but I'll see if I can post a video
I was thinking about hooking a jt to it
OK here is my video.
http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1147.photobucket.com/albums/o547/jhsmith87/20121014_195546.mp4
You got it! Ace! All right..... now you deserve to celebrate a little.
I sure do.. I've been getting so irritated the past few weeks trying to make this.
This motor is a bit mysterious to me. I mean.... .why does it work? Does it attract the rotor magnet, or repel it? Or Both? Or does it even work as a core effect motor like Orbo?
Here's why it's mysterious: It runs equally well in either direction, and.... the polarity of the drive coil doesn't seem to matter much.
That is: the rotor magnets are glued in place with one pole facing outward towards the coil. So the rotor magnets determine the "overall polarity" of the machine, since they cannot be changed easily once glued in place.
But the drive coil is getting strictly DC pulses, according to my oscilloscope. With the drive coil hooked up one way, he current is always in the same direction for the drive pulse and so the polarity of the electromagnet is always the same, just turning on and off, not alternating polarity like it would for an AC drive signal. Now reverse both the drive coil and the sense coil...... the motor still runs, even though the drive coil is now getting the _opposite polarity_ of current than before. So if it was attracting the rotor magnet the first way, the second way is repelling the rotor magnet. Yet the motor runs fine anyway.
The timing requirement is different for an attraction PM than for a repulsion PM. Call the closest approach of a magnet to the coil "Top Dead Center". Somehow, flipping both coils must also change the timing so that the pulses occur in the right place to drive the rotor by attraction: timed to fire just before "TDC" and shuts OFF as the magnet actually passes the coil, OR by repulsion or core effect: timed to fire at or just after TDC, turning ON as the magnet passes the coil.
For me to determine the exact relationship of the drive pulse to the rotor magnet position, I need to be able to trigger my oscilloscope using some measure of the rotor position unrelated to the coil drive pulse, like an optical sensor separately powered. This will allow me to see whether the drive pulse always stays in the same place or advances or retards depending on the sense coil polarity. Hmmmm.......
Thank you, jhsmith87, for showing me this interesting aspect of the Bedini system. I can see why many people have been fascinated by this thing over the years.
Here's another fact that I just noticed, but is perfectly reasonable. The Sweet Spot changes as the run battery decreases in voltage. I've been running all night and the run battery is now down to 12.14 volts. The current draw has dropped a bit and the rotor slows, so I find that I can turn the potentiometer slightly to reestablish the 70-80 mA current draw without losing the high voltage spike. So the Sweet Spot base resistance is moving as the battery voltage drops. This seems to be a strong argument for including the pot and bulb in the circuit as a normal part, rather than using a fixed base resistance.
Plus it's always fun to have something to tweak, if you know what I mean.
;)
Well I've been studying it for a while so I can tell you pretty much how it works or why it works. Basically from what I understand it's all based on switching when there's no magnet front of the coil the drive coil is turned on producing an electromagnetic field when the magnet it's in front of it it turns on the other 1 at the same time turning off the drive. so when theres no magnet in front of it the drive is attracting but when the magnet pass is it it introduces current into the other 1 therefore shutting off the drive and repelling the magnet as its leaving from in front of the coil. That's how I understand it from what I have read in many many articles about it.
and what is it that I helped u do. Your the one that was helping me haha
Well, just for fun I made another coil with a different set of parameters. I used a core made of a bundle of pieces of soft iron wire, and I used a triple strand of #27 wires for the drive coil and wound this, by itself, onto the core first, 650 turns. Then on top of that I used a single strand of #27 and wound 700 turns for the sense coil. So the two coils aren't intermixed like in the first one I made. This motor needs a greater spin to start than the other coil, maybe that is because of the way I wound the sense coil.
This coil really works though, once it starts. It has its "sweet spot" at only slightly different total base resistance, about 240 ohms, but it draws a lot more current, 240 mA, and runs faster, around 1475 RPM at 12.3 v and 240 mA, and it makes much more HV current too, judged by the way it runs the Ring Oscillator load. Still though, the sweet spot is where the little incandescent bulb just barely begins to glow, and then back off just a tiny bit.
So now I'm running on that coil, on battery B2, and charging battery B1 which I pulled when it got down to about 11.9 v. It is already back up to 12.59 v according to the meter. The run battery, B2, is down to 12.16 v. So it appears that I am effectively transferring charge from one battery to the other... and it appears that the charge battery is increasing in voltage faster than the run battery is decreasing.
Now all I need is some black sand and I'll be ready to run my house on a giant Bedini motor in the basement.
8)
ha.. i hear ya, what is black sand, and what good is it vs welding rods like i use?
you should try this, u know the circuit is basically a JT on steroids right. well i used to experiment with all kinds of things with my JT, one thing i noticed is that when i made my coil that it seemed to put out the most power when i wrapped the wires opposing each other. like if your holding the spool facing you, you wrap one coil with turns going to the right and the other going to the left, (doesnt matter witch one) but be sure that you wrap them together, not one on top the other, like you did the coil u just told me about. and that way may work, i dont know i have only tried it with opposing winds wrapping them together, it takes a little more time and effort, but i noticed a big difference in my output voltage. as much as a 3v gain. and i am not sure about the amps this is when my meter started to show signs of being incorrect, but it seemed an amp increase of about 7 to 10mah..
now for the bedini motor thats not alot of extra power, but coming from a single double A battery thats ALOT! the increase i seen was more power than a fully charged AA puts out on it own almost double, now i am not sure this would work with the bedini, but i dont see why not.
try it out.
The black sand is magnetic sand, I think it's probably little meteorite fragments that are in the dust of the air, or iron ore particles. Some Bedini sites say to use it, mixed with epoxy and formed into a rod, for the core material. I dunno... wouldn't a good ferrite be just as effective? Or the welding rod pieces? Who knows, without trying and comparing, holding other conditions constant. Maybe someone has done the necessary research. I'm not quite up to the full program myself but I have done a couple of good comparisons already.
Yes, I agree about the JT - Bedini circuits. I have said before that the high-voltage JT is a Bedini motor with no moving parts, and I've used my JTs to charge capacitors and even external batteries, using the same take-off points as with the Bedini motor. My neon Ring Oscillator runs really well on a HV JT but needs about 3.5 V to get going. Still, not bad for powering a device that has 5, 90 volt neons running. And I've made several good LED JTs using the little E-core inductors from old TV chassis.
I think I understand the winding method you are describing. I'll have to try that, if I can figure out how to automate it. I can wind the two layers separately in opposite directions easily enough, but winding them both at the same time, interweaving them so to speak, is a lot more difficult and I can see that it must have driven you nuts to do a big coil that way. This is almost a "caduceus" winding, if your two winding turns kind of cross each other at close to 90 degrees, like a spindle wind.... and those are known or alleged to have several interesting effects. I definitely will try it if I can figure out how to do it easily.... thanks for the idea!
Meanwhile, I've done the first battery swap. When B1 got charged up to a bit over 12.6 volts, and B2 was down to around 11.6, I swapped them around, and now am running on the battery that the motor charged itself, and charging the B2 battery for the first time. I'm not yet keeping track of times, just getting a feel for the process. The B2 battery is already back up to 12.33 volts, but the B1 is going down pretty fast, it's already down to 11.92.
Oh, I forgot to mention.... I also made an optical pickup, so that I can have that independent look at the rotor rotation that doesn't depend on the circuit. This will allow me to see what happens to the timing when the coils are reversed, so I might be able to answer my question of "how" does this motor even work in the first place.
I hope.
Anyway, I have a little IR send-receive module that I got at the surplus store, all it needs is a 5 volt supply and it makes a 5 volt pulse when it sees a reflective bit of aluminum duct tape go whizzing past its face. So I mounted it on a board with a 78L05 mini voltage regulator and a filter cap, and hooked it up to the motor's power supply input. It adds about 30 mA to the total consumption so I have to allow for that when dialing in the current for the sweet spot. 250 mA + 30 mA = 280 mA is my target now.
I put four strips of aluminum duct tape on the rotor top surface and positioned the IR head to look down at the rotor. Now, by hooking the scope probe to the IR board I have a nice square pulse that shows what the rotor itself is doing, no matter what the electronics of the motor decide to do.
I thought about running one. On a ir or optical sensor but didn't really put much more than a thought in it. But it wouldbe cool..
Hey I was thinking about making a coil with a lower gauge wire. Like 18 and 23. What do u think what would the difference be u think?
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 17, 2012, 08:32:30 PM
Hey I was thinking about making a coil with a lower gauge wire. Like 18 and 23. What do u think what would the difference be u think?
I'm sure it would work. Your current consumption and "sweet spot" base resistance will probably change.
I've found the greatest difference to be with the transistor! I finally blew the other "new" RS 2n3055, so I re-tried an old one marked "weak".... but it's not! With my new coil described above, this transistor, the old 2n3055, works incredibly well, but the base resistance has changed. This transistor runs the motor on 50 mA quite well and has its "sweet spot" at around 170 mA, a little over half what the RS transistor wanted, and there is plenty of HV to light the neon superbright or run the ring oscillators. The sweet spot is still just barely before the glowing of the filament in the base resistance, but there is a much wider range between too much and too little, with this transistor.
I can't read the manufacturer's stamp on this 3055, but the difference is significant, for sure.
So I'll say, wind your coil with the thicker wire, use a variable resistance in the base circuit, and try to get some different 2n3055 transistors from different lots or manufacturers to try.
I've also been charging and swapping batteries. It's an interesting exercise.... I can see the run battery decreasing in voltage and the charge battery increasing in voltage, and swap them back and forth several times ... but the running average of the two batteries seems to be steadily declining, and where I might start with one at 12.0 volts and the other at 12.6 volts, after a while I have both batteries at 12.2 volts... and downhill from there, until both are below 12 volts and I give up and recharge them with the real battery charger.
Wow u been doin a lot of work lately. I've been trying to play with the jt lately. I want to make one I can hook up to 12v or 9v and get a really high amp draw from.. I have seen many diagrams but can't seem to replacte them. I've seen some on u tube powering big Flo light bulbs. That's really what I wanna try to do they all seem to have three winds. I just can't get it. I've got several toroids wound already some with small gauge few turns and big gauge lots of turns and many other variations. Do u know anything bout that? U help a lot on the motor maybe u can with helping me make a high powered jet. Could I hook a transformer to the out put of the jt? Or what could I do. How can I do this..
Quote from: jhsmith87 on October 26, 2012, 03:34:04 AM
Wow u been doin a lot of work lately. I've been trying to play with the jt lately. I want to make one I can hook up to 12v or 9v and get a really high amp draw from.. I have seen many diagrams but can't seem to replacte them. I've seen some on u tube powering big Flo light bulbs. That's really what I wanna try to do they all seem to have three winds. I just can't get it. I've got several toroids wound already some with small gauge few turns and big gauge lots of turns and many other variations. Do u know anything bout that? U help a lot on the motor maybe u can with helping me make a high powered jet. Could I hook a transformer to the out put of the jt? Or what could I do. How can I do this..
Sure, I've been playing around with JTs too. My goal has been high voltage, though. I've not been able to light the CFLs the way some folks have but I'm getting quite good results anyway. I've got a little unit here on my desk, like an executive toy, that lights a NE-2 neon with a "dead" AA battery. Some of my JTs will light a CFL fairly brightly.... but not with both wires connected! Only if I have just a single wire connected to the CFL. It's a matter of resonant frequencies and voltage rise by standing wave resonance, and I haven't hit that critical point yet in my constructions. I've run out of cores!
The thicker wire should usually be used for the "primary" and the thinner wire, more turns, for the "secondary", in a step-up transformer like the JT. Another winding for another secondary or a trigger winding can also be put in there. Winding toroids is fun, I hope you figured out how to use a long skinny "bobbin" that you prewind with wire, to thread thru the toroid hole while winding.
JTs work by taking a low voltage, low current source and "compressing" the energy from that into high voltage, high current but _very short_ pulses, separated by lots of blank, off-time. This happens so fast that it looks like continuous power but it's not.
What I've done is to use a diode/capacitor to extract and store the power from JTs, by catching and adding up all the short pulses it emits.
Why don't you show me the schematic of the JT you are trying to build, and let me know exactly what you've done, and I'll see if I can help you get it working. Right now I'm using a JT powered by 5 volts to run two neon ring oscillators, just as a display item.
The one below uses a little inductor I ripped out of an old TV chassis, without modification. The nine-turn outer winding that you can see is used as the primary.
ETA: Don't forget the trick of reversing the hookup of _one_ of the coils to try to get it working.
I've used many different plans. I can make one work. I just wanna beef one up any one really. Now u say the primary should be the bigger less turns. The primary goes to where the + battery post and where else.
I have a toroid wound with three wires 18g about 10 turns 23g about 50 turns and 30g about 150 turns.
Well, I don't know about three windings. I'd try using the shorter two in a basic JT circuit and then see if you get higher voltages from the longest winding while it's running on the other two.
You could try this circuit; it's the one from the handheld NE-2 running on a AA battery.
I've just pulled a nice little inductor, 10 mH, from an old TV circuit board, it must have at least 300 turns on a nice ferrite bobbin, and I wound another 30 turns of heavier wire on top of it. Will be testing it out shortly.
I'm no JT expert though. The guys in the other thread are way beyond me as far as getting high power outputs, it seems. But they are using more expensive coil cores than I am willing to buy.
So.... here's that 10 mH inductor from the TV set. I wound about 30 turns of #22 on the outside of it, over a layer of cloth tape, then used the above schematic, with a 330R resistor in the base leg, to make the newest JT. It blew out a white LED immediately, and lights the NE-2 neon/diode load quite well on a battery that's down to 1.0 volts. I haven't yet tried any other variations with it, but it sure works well lighting the NE-2. Batteries that will not light my other NE2 JTs will light this one. With a fresh AAA it is really bright.
OK, I think I just figured out that you want high current draw and lots of output power, not necessarily low voltage operation.
OK....we can do that too. For this application you can cheat a little bit by using a secondary that is already wound for you: a TV flyback transformer. You wind your own primary around the exposed part of the ferrite loop that makes the core of the flyback. Then you drive your new primary with the output of a higher-power self-resonating circuit.
Here's the so-called "ZVS" or zero-voltage-switching flyback driver system that I use. It's also similar to the Royer-oscillator-type wireless power and inductive heater circuits.
With the arrangement I'm using it draws about 7 to 9 amps from a 24-36 volt battery supply, and makes 30,000 volts at the flyback output. SO be careful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XRwlNCF1PU
great video, and explanations. i do have an old tv set i took apart, but not sure what parts your talking about and how to use them to do what... sorry but i am a completely ignorant to alot of this stuff.
sorry it has taken me so long to get back for some reason i stopped getting emails when i had a reply. dont know what the deal is.
but basically if i am right base on what your saying, i can not get any more power, voltage or amps from just more windings right? and as far as you know adding a third winding dont do anything as far as more power either? and i can just wrap a 3rd wire around it and get power from the two ends right? they must be hooked to something correct?
as i said i have an old tv and many parts. i would love to make what you made with some power like that. but i would need alot more than the diagram.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on November 14, 2012, 12:58:34 PM
great video, and explanations. i do have an old tv set i took apart, but not sure what parts your talking about and how to use them to do what... sorry but i am a completely ignorant to alot of this stuff.
Well, for the high voltage above all you need from the TV is the flyback transformer. It's the scary looking thing that has a heavy wire going to a suction cup on the picture tube. Be sure your caps are discharged! Look on the internet for some basic info about flyback transformers. You'll just wind an 8 turn primary, with a center tap, on the "handle" of the flyback, and use what is already there for the secondary. The rest of the stuff in the diagram you can get from just about any electronics supply store except Radio Shack.
Quote
sorry it has taken me so long to get back for some reason i stopped getting emails when i had a reply. dont know what the deal is.
No problem, I think some of the software settings in the forum have been changed. Just go into your account settings and re-select email notifications, if that's what you want.
Quote
but basically if i am right base on what your saying, i can not get any more power, voltage or amps from just more windings right? and as far as you know adding a third winding dont do anything as far as more power either? and i can just wrap a 3rd wire around it and get power from the two ends right? they must be hooked to something correct?
Not quite. I believe that you aren't going to get any more _energy_ out than in, or _average_ power, but you can certainly get more volts, or more amps, or more instantaneous power, as the video above shows. It's a matter of the ratio of turns in each of your windings, plus taking advantage of what is called "voltage rise by standing wave resonance". It's great fun, too.
Quote
as i said i have an old tv and many parts. i would love to make what you made with some power like that. but i would need alot more than the diagram.
Lots of people have videos on YouTube fooling around with TV flyback transformers and car ignition coils. You'll see circuits very much like the Bedini motor with a 2n3055 driving the primary, you'll see oscillators based on the 555 chip, and many other variants. This one, based on Royer oscillator induction heaters, is the best and most reliable I've seen. I have not yet blown a single mosfet using this circuit or the inductive wireless power transfer system variant, except once when I mistakenly switched on with no load attached at the output.
You can watch those YT videos and learn a lot. Just be careful, these things really can kill you if you take the output shock across your chest.
i really like the idea of that last plan you gave me. it seems like just what i am looking for. although i am confused by it, i have no idea how to follow those plans or even what alot of the parts are, i see the capacitor, and resistors, power input and coils, but other than that i am LOST!
Quote from: jhsmith87 on November 16, 2012, 05:59:26 PM
i really like the idea of that last plan you gave me. it seems like just what i am looking for. although i am confused by it, i have no idea how to follow those plans or even what alot of the parts are, i see the capacitor, and resistors, power input and coils, but other than that i am LOST!
Well, other than the parts you mentioned, there are two mosfets (transistor types, the Q1 and Q2), two regular highspeed highvoltage rectifier diodes, and two Zener diodes (the ones right next to the transistors are actually inside them, not separate parts, so don't worry about those). Add a switch, a fuse, and heatsinks for the mosfets. I also used screw terminal blocks to connect the mosfet legs, but you can just solder them in place and save two dollars.
About ten or twelve dollars worth of parts all together. The mosfets are common types, as are the rest of the parts. The hardest part of this circuit is finding the right secondary ground pin on the flyback transformer!
I'll post some pics of the layout of my driver board in a little while, check back in a couple of hours. It should make sense to you when you see the actual parts laid out on a board.
ETA: Don't forget, with the flyback transformer hooked in and working, this circuit can KILL you, or your cat or your child..... so please, be very careful, don't have scattered clipleads all over the place, and know where your cats and children are when you are experimenting. If Tabby jumps up on your bench to check out the sounds or something ... you might get a fried cat for your trouble!
well i dont have a mosfet or even know what it is. i am just going to try a traditional JT with a big toroid the plans you posted a few post back, and 10t 18g primary and 100t 26g pickup. i am really just trying to provide enough power to light up a light bulb, would be nice for a small appliance. so im am in the process of building what you posted that powered your neons but with a different number of turns and different gauge, also i prolly will use 9v instead of the traditional AA. what do you think?
also how do i know what transistor to use, and if i use one that works how can i know that is the best one to use?
Well, you need to be careful about the input voltage because you can blow your transistor; Just like in the case of the Bedini motor, the base resistor will determine the current, and will have to be changed to suit your input voltage and your transistor model.
For the circuits we've been looking at, you need a NPN transistor, same as with the Bedini motor. 2n3055 for the powerful ones, 2n2222a or 2n3904 type for the low powered versions. Experiment!
The mosfets for the jacob's ladder flyback driver are specific, you must use IRFP260N, I get them for about $2.50 at my local supplier.( I think they must be used in high-power auto stereo systems or something, or why else would he actually keep them in stock?) Don't try to alter component specs or values in that circuit, until you have more experience, please. Other mosfets can be used but they must have very low "Rdss"... on-state resistance .... so just use the ones I specified.
But for low power JTs ... try any NPN type. First get your basic circuit working with 2n2222a, then sub in transistors you want to play with. Hook them up backwards, every which way, to see what happens. With a 1.5 or 3 volt JT you won't hurt your transistors by hooking them up wrong, I think, but with 9V you might.
im using the 2n3055. and like i said i would like to power a light bulb or something. i am using the digram you posted with the inductor you got from the tv. you dont think that transistor would handle 9v? what about 7.8v i have some lithium batteries that are 7.4 but charged fully go to 7.8v. and with my multimeter not having the correct fuse in it there is no way for me to read amps, i can volts, but most of the time its not 100% accurate.
so think of what i am doing. 10t 18g primary over 100t 26g pickup 2n3055 transistor and wanting to power a light bulb, hopefully a small appliance. such as a cell phone charger or something like that. i would think putting in 9v would get the output alot higher, and thought the transistor would handle 9v, since the bedini motor uses the same transistor, on 12v 3a power supply.
so what do you think i should do, or what will happen.
Sure, use the 2n3055, and put a base resistor in there. The best would be to use the same variable resistor arrangement as for the Bedini motor. Or you could start with, say, 680R, 1/2 Watt, and see what happens. You can download a "data sheet" for your 2n3055 and see what the maximum permitted voltages between Base and Collector, Base and Emitter, and Emitter and Collector, and also the maximum allowed currents, and then choose your base resistor based on Ohm's law, your battery voltage, and the desired current from Base to Emitter.
You should be able to light up some bulbs with that, I'd think.
Meanwhile here are a couple pix of the Flyback driver board. I noted all the parts on there by their numbers on the schematic above; I hope this is helpful to you if you decide to build it.
Yea the pics help a bit.. was that tiny black rod your coil?
But since I don't have the things needed to make that I'm building the diagram u posted before that one. Just differentcoil.
I'm still not done. I'm wondering what kinda volts I'll get set up like that with a 9v batt. I would like to see at least 24v
Well, if I can get 170 volts from a triple A.... you should be able to get 24 from a nine-volt. But power isn't just voltage, you need current too, and short spikes have the effect of lowering the average current.
What kind of bulb are you wanting to light? You will for sure be able to light a bunch of LEDs, probably even a CFL if you got the windings right.
I dunno which tiny black rod you mean. The black-coated coils on the top right are two 60 microHy chokes in series to make the 120 microHy L1. The flyback transformer and the 8 turn center tapped primary are out of the shot, to the left, but you can see the three-terminal block where the primary hooks to the driver board on the left.
the lights i am trying to power, well it dont really matter much i guess, i just need it to be very bright. i have a small garden inside, very small. right now the light i use for it, is usually 4 to 5 CFL's i guess i could use LEDS but i bought the CFLS with the highest lumens, (i assume you know what lumens are) just in case it is the amount of sunlight like light brightness, for lack of any better way to describe it.
i wonder how many leds it would take to provide enough light for a small plant? how many lumens does an LED have? i dont know.
i understand i need current, i could have 1k volts and with out a bit of ampers its basically useless.
with the diagram you gave me before the complicated one, and using the wires, transistor and input power i am using i should get a good bit of power right?
what about using 2 transistors in series or parallel with the exact same set up i am doing now, but just two transistors, what would that do? would that increase anything?
also on the coil i have, i have three windings, first i am trying out the 10t 18g input and 100+t 28g for pick up. then i will maybe try out the other winding for either input or pickup, its like 23g maybe 50 to 75t. and use the 18g still for primary. or switch it up use the 100t for primary and the 10t for pickup. i am going to test it out and try my best to see the difference but since i have no way to measure current due to my multimeter fuse, it will be very hard to tell.
but before i get it up and going and testing different ways i would like to see what you think the difference would be in making that kinda change.
also give me your opinion on the dual transistor. whats your thoughts on that
I don't know about the dual transistor setup, I've never tried it. I've been meaning to though, maybe tomorrow I will and I'll let you know how it works out.
I have used a bunch, like 18 IIRC, CFLs in a little vegetable garden myself, but I never thought about powering it with a JT. That's a great idea if it can be made to work. I don't know how many lumens a plant likes, but I do know the brighter the better as long as you can keep everybody cool. If it gets more than 85 degrees in there it's probably too warm.
I think that the pickup coil should have lots of turns, and that the low-voltage primary should have the fewest turns, and the secondary that powers your load should have around the same as the pickup coil, give or take.
You could measure current in the following way, by measuring voltage. Get a 1-Ohm, 1 or 2 Watt resistor and put it in series with the current you want to measure. Then use the voltmeter part of your DMM to measure across this resistor. You are measuring the "voltage drop" from one end of the resistor to the other. Then you apply Ohm's Law: V=IR, or I=V/R. So your current in Amps is equal to the Voltage drop divided by the resistance and since the resistance is 1 ohm, you just read off the current directly from your voltmeter. If it says "0.040 V", that's a drop of 40 milliVolts over a one Ohm resistor.... equals 40 milliAmps. If you use a 0.5 Ohm resistor, then you just use I = V / 0.5 . I've found some good resistors to use in the old TVs. Look for the white rectangular blocks, and the light grey/green resistors that have printing instead of color code on them, find the 2.2 ohm or the 1.0 ohm ones and use it for your "current monitoring resistor", the lower the Ohmage the better, but 1 Ohm is the easiest to use.
Wait so u say use three windings for this project? If so where would the pickup coil wires go.
I'm giving up seriously. I can't even build something that simple I followed your directions step by step used everything mentioned to a tee I tested out on 1 AA battery just to see the voltage increase I would get a complete waste of my entire day I tried switching different leads I tried every resistor I have hi even tried winding another Coil. With different gauges and number of turns on both wires. I've been working on this for well over 12 hours now and I have not got any difference in voltage for the most part the change in voltage was decreased by 1 bolt from a double a battery I've built 1 of these before I tried following a diagram but got confused but somehow accidentally got 1 to work but since then I've tried and tried and tried and have never been able to get 1 to work again this is definitely much simpler then the motor you help me build. But for some reason I cannot get this to work at all so I've just given up all hope I've got the motor still put together and I'll hold on to that but as far as trying to build or make anything else I just don't see it anyway possible that I am capable due to my lack of knowledge to be able to build anything else even something this simple. I'm so frustrated at this point I've just decided to give up on any other experiments as much as I enjoy building them there's no joy in building something for hours and it never worked. If only there was some type of idiot proof wait to do it and for me to learn how it works why it works what makes it work. I just can't see myself wasting the hours of wasted on this simple project anymore or any other projects for that matter this is completely ridiculous
Hey, calm down! Believe me, your frustration is shared by me and by many others, on projects like this and on others. Take a walk outside, it's a beautiful day here at least.
Please don't get discouraged; there might be some really simple reason why you aren't getting what you want. Maybe you've damaged a transistor by overheating it, or maybe you are misinterpreting a diagram, or maybe your parts supplier gave you bad parts. The 2n3055s that I bought from RS a couple weeks ago both failed, one immediately and one after a couple of hours, but the ones that I bought from my other supplier, made by a different manufacturer, are still running strong.
If you want, we can go step by step. If you can take pictures and upload them, that would be very helpful.
Let's start with your goals. At this point I think it would be a very nice feeling for you if you got your circuit working. If you made a simple, low-power JT that would light up some plain LEDs, and it worked, would that help restore your confidence and enthusiasm?
Also, back up a little bit and look at basic skills. How is your soldering technique, etc. I have helped people build things, and in more than one case I discovered that the person didn't realise he had to scrape the enamel off the ends of the enamelled magnet wire in order to get a connection. This is nothing to laugh at.... the person was grateful to learn of this error and how to fix it and his circuits worked thereafter.
Myself, I've done silly things like get transistors backwards too, and much worse. Once I destroyed a 30,000 dollar (when new) piece of test equipment, an HP frequency counter, by accidentally tweaking the knob the wrong way on a high voltage device I was testing. I've nearly killed myself by blowing up HV capacitors, wasted hours and hours trying to track down faults in malfunctioning equipment when they were just unplugged from the power supply..... found whole batches of bad components from suppliers and manufacturers.... and tried to build circuits that simply were wrongly drawn. When I was a kid, for _years_ no transistor project I built would work. I finally figured out, much later, that I was probably using too hot a soldering iron and the wrong kind of solder.
Lately, people bring me old, inoperative equipment that they are throwing away, and when they find that I've repaired and calibrated the unit, they want it back, and of course they don't want to "make it worth my time".
A few years ago, I completely restored and recalibrated my old ex-NASA Tektronix RM503 oscilloscope. Literally days of work, got it working to factory new standards, new tubes and everything. Then I left it on overnight to "burn in" and stabilise. The next morning it was dead, blowing line fuses. I spent days again, trying to track down the fault, and couldn't. I lugged this dead scope around with me to the West Coast and back when I moved a couple of times. A year or so ago I decided to look at it again, and after a day's frustrating work I finally found that the mains transformer's CRT filament winding was leaking high voltage into the rest of the transformer and blowing the fuse. It is impossible to replace that transformer. SO.... I just put a completely separate transformer to supply the CRT filament in there. Now the scope works again and I leave it on for weeks at a time, it's running right now making 4-oscillator Bowditch patterns. You have no idea how frustrating that project has been, but I finally conquered it and was successful... and it was because, in the intervening years, I learned more and I developed my troubleshooting skills. The actual repair, once I figured out what was wrong, took about an hour and I had a suitable transformer in my parts bin, so it didn't even cost any money that I hadn't already spent. The hardest part was trying to find a mounting spot for the extra transformer inside the case.
Feel better yet? I hope so.... please don't get discouraged.
:P
Here, maybe this will give you an idea of what real frustration looks like. This is just from the last three or four months.
;D
I doubt its the transistor it worked on my motor. But I can not at all solder don't even have solder. But yes if I could just make a very simple one I'd be happy.. I seriously am getting so fed up I've tried everything.
Im gonna.try this one more time
I doubt if you've tried _everything_. ;)
How are you hooking stuff up? Are you using colored clipleads, from a package of a bunch of them?
Check these wires very carefully; it is amazing how cheaply these things are made. They can have thick-looking wires but it's all insulation, and there's just a tiny bit of copper in there, and the connection to the alligator clip is just a crimp. You might have a bad cliplead.
I have a few good clipleads with good wire, and I always solder the wire to the clip. But you've probably noticed that I don't use clipleads a lot.
Soldering is much more reliable and safe, but if you don't have an iron you probably aren't going to want to buy one.
I don't use clips. I just either twist the wires really tight or use breadboard. I always make sure the wires are stripped but I'm goin to start from scratch smaller toroid 22g going to do 10t on top of the pick.up.wire witch is 25g maybe 100t? For a.10 to 1 ratio or should I go 10t primary 50 pickup? Should I use wires that are more different in size and dies.it matter if pickup is wrapped first below the primary or.should.primary go on first?
And what difference.does.it make.on primary and pick.up ratio.wire size.and # of turns? Is there a golden sorta.zone to it. Or is.it like a.transformer more.pickup.than primary just means.more powered?
So before I start winding tell me what u think about my wire size.choice (23 pickup 50t & 22g 10t primary)
I think the wire size and turns that you said, are fine.
I'm sure there is some kind of "sweet spot" but literally every coil I've tried seems to work, more or less, and the ones I got from the old TVs, the ones in the rectangular frames, work really well. They are dual windings with the same size wire and same number of turns on each winding.
OK, so those breadboards that have the holes for component wires.... I've found problems with them too. The "grippers" that are inside will get loose or bent and won't make proper contact. I've got a few but I'm careful with them, using only small component leads, but sometimes they still will get loose.
But I think twisting wires together should work fine if you're careful about it. There is even a prototype technique called wire-wrap, where all your connections are made this way with really fine wire and a little wrapping tool. I've laid out whole circuits of chips this way, without a single solder joint. For low voltage, low current circuits this works fine; I've even seen wire-wrapped connections inside commercial products like those old TVs.
So let's build a basic LED joule thief first using the coil you just described.
You have some 2n2222a transistors I think. Make sure you know which lead is which: if you have the metal can version, the lead at the "tab" is the Emitter, the middle lead is the Base and the remaining lead is the Collector. The Collector is also connected to the can so don't let it touch any other part of the circuit. If you have the black plastic version looking at the flat side, the leads are E B C from Left to Right.
Let's use a run-down AA or AAA battery for this simple JT confidence builder.
Now take your coil that you described, and hook one end of the ten-turn winding to one end of the 50 turn winding, and hook this point to the positive battery terminal.
Take the other end of the 10 turns winding and hook it to one end of a resistor, something between 200 and 1000 ohms. Hook the other end of this resistor to the Base of the transistor.
Hook the other end of the 50 turns winding to the Collector of the transistor and to the Anode of the LED. (The LED has two electrodes inside, one looks like a "Cup" this is the Cathode or negative, and there should be a flat side on the LED base to indicate Cathode, and the other one is the Anode or positive.)
Hook the Emitter of the transistor to the Cathode of the LED, and finally hook a wire from this point ( Emitter-Cathode) to the negative pole of the battery. It should work!
If it doesn't, reverse the connections to ONE of the coils, whichever is easiest to do on your setup. Then it should work.
If not, check the connections to the LED, try reversing it, but also make sure it's working by lighting it with normal power. Try a different transistor. If it still doesn't work after all of this, we've got some problem that might take a few tries to find.
I just made a short video, following these instructions exactly, the only difference from your build is my larger turns winding has only around 30 turns instead of your 50. It's processing and uploading now, will be ready in a few minutes.
OK, done uploading:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zIgKGDbtfw
Once you've got that basic circuit working, then start experimenting to build up to your desired operation.
First start by changing the base resistor value and see what that does. Keep the same low voltage battery, and change the resistor in steps: 220 R, 440R, 470R, 560R, 680R, etc and see what happens to the brightness of your LED. Then, with the 680R or 1k R in there, try increasing the battery voltage and see what happens. If you started with a dead 1 volt AAA, put a brand new 1.54 volt one in there. Etc.
Then change the transistor to a 2n3055. Then start adding or removing turns from your coils, a few at a time. Experiment in an orderly fashion and keep some kind of record so you don't get lost.
By starting with a working circuit and only changing one thing at a time, you will learn a lot and you can build up to where you are getting the results you want.
ETA: If you are going to stay with this hobby... and it's a good and very rewarding one... you really need a decent temperature-controlled soldering iron. The most basic one available is the Weller WLC100, like the one I use. I think RS actually carries these or a similar one. Velleman also markets a good basic adjustable iron.
I got my Weller at a yard sale years ago for 5 dollars, and I've changed the tip once in all the time I've been using it. You probably aren't going to get that lucky though!!
OK.. well I got an led to light up but my multimeter shoes no difference in voltage I tried all size resistors even tried a pot no voltage increase.
Quote from: jhsmith87 on November 18, 2012, 08:03:08 PM
OK.. well I got an led to light up but my multimeter shoes no difference in voltage I tried all size resistors even tried a pot no voltage increase.
Well, I take it you at least got your circuit working. I hope you found my directions and video useful.
Your multimeter isn't going to be able to measure the output voltage of this system, because its output is very short duration, HV spikes.
If you really want to measure the output voltage you can do this:
Find an electrolytic capacitor of around 22 microFarads, 200 volts. The "negative" side of this cap will be marked on the case. I used the big cap from a CFL that I took apart, it's perfect.
Find a diode, just about any one will do. To confirm my instructions here, I used a random diode from an old TV circuit board. It is marked RM1B and 57, and has a band on the cathode end. The internet tells me this is an 800 V, 0.8 A rectifier diode. You might have 1n4001 series diodes, use one of them, like 1n4002 or 1n4005. There are also a bunch of these rectifier diodes in the CFL power circuit in the base of the bulb.
Hook the positive side of the capacitor to the Collector-LED anode connection.
Hook the negative side of the capacitor to the _anode_ (non-banded end) of the rectifier diode.
Hook the _cathode_ of the rectifier diode to the Emitter-LED-battery negative connection.
Now hook your voltmeter across the capacitor, negative lead to negative on the cap, positive lead to the positive on the cap, DC voltage setting, 20 volt range.
Turn on the JT, and you should see the LED light up normally, and the voltage on your cap will climb more or less rapidly until it stabilises. You might be surprised at how high it goes. Mine got up to 2.7 volts in a few seconds, with less than 1 volt input from the battery.
Now for the real treat..... break the connection between your LED and the emitter of the transistor, so that the LED is disconnected and can not clip the output. Set your voltmeter to the 200 VDC range. Repeat the above, but just connect the cathode (banded end) of the rectifier diode to the emitter lead of the transistor, with your LED disconnected ( and of course connect this junction to the battery negative as usual). Watch.... and learn. I _know_ you will be surprised this time.
Mine took about 30 seconds to build up to just over 70 volts DC, and that on less than 1 volt input from the battery.
The capacitor stores and "integrates" or adds up the spikes, so you will get a voltage reading that reflects the performance of the JT. The diode keeps the charge on the cap and doesn't let it back into the JT to vanish. But the presence of the LED means that no matter what the true output might be, it will be clipped by the LED, and also limited by the fwd voltage drop of the rectifier diode you are using. It does provide a reference value for you, though, and you should be able to tell if your changes are having any effect. With the LED disconnected you get a value closer to the peak output voltage, less the (now insignificant) drop caused by the rectifier.
BE careful, with a good HVJT you can build up hundreds of volts in a big capacitor this way and hurt yourself.
Yes your instructions help a lot I probably couldn't done it without it thanks. Now I'm trying with the capacitors but I can't seem to get it is the capacitors to charge over .7 volts and when I try to hook up a diode it behaves more like a resistor I know I have hooked up the right way and I tried putting putting diodes in all the places I can think of I had it coming from the collector and the negative terminal to the capacitor I had coming from the emmiter and all of the places that I could I tried using an LED before the capacitor every way still nothing above .7 volts I must be doing something wrong I'm just not sure what it is. But we can skip over that part for now and try too move along to just up in the power try to power something more than just 1 LED what should I do next to try to power assume all CFL or maybe some halogen light bulbs anything that will provide enough light for a few plants so now that I've got the circuit down good. What should be my next step in trying to create more output power would it be just increasing the input power adding another circuit to the end of that circuit or what
Slow down.
Let's go one step at a time. Look again at my video showing the voltage measurement on the capacitor, for the JT we built "together", using the 2n2222a. Since the only difference between your setup and mine is a few turns on the secondary.... right? Then you should be able to get similar voltages.... 70 volts or so--- on the capacitor. In fact yours should be higher than mine, probably, depending on the inductance of your toroid and your turns numbers. I don't want to go any further until you can get a good voltage measurement, following my instructions, on your capacitor.
Disconnect _only_ the cathode of the LED from the transistor Emitter of your working 2n2222a JT. So now it's sticking up in the air, and the only thing connected to the emitter of the transistor is the wire going to the negative battery terminal. Right?
Make sure your voltmeter is set to DC, and at least 100 V range. Clip your 22 microFarad, 200 volt capacitor right to your voltmeter leads, negative to negative, positive to positive. Now run a wire from the voltmeter-capacitor positive side, over to the Collector of the transistor which is still connected to one end of one of the coils. (the anode of the LED is also still connected here, but isn't used.) Now run a wire from the voltmeter-capacitor negative side, to your rectifier diode's Anode (non banded end) , and use one that can withstand spikes, like 1n4002 or even 1n4007. Then touch the other end (cathode, banded end) of the diode to the Emitter of the transistor where the LED used to be hooked up, and where the negative battery pole is still hooked up. You are not using the LED, but you should still be able to hear the JT oscillating
If you do not see the cap voltage rise well over 3 volts right away, and climb to several tens of volts in a few seconds, you are doing something wrong or your diode or your capacitor is bad. Try reversing the rectifier diode, but it should work the way I've laid it out. I just tried it this way on my version of the JT we built together and it works as I said.
You can use an electrolytic cap of a different value; smaller will charge faster and bigger will charge slower, and if it's too big (too many microFarads) it won't work. Just make sure the cap you select has a high enough voltage rating (don't use a "25 volt" cap for example). Stick to the 10 to 30 microFarad size range.
Before we go further, I'd really like to see you get this part right, and you'll do better too, by slowing down and proceeding methodically. Any time you are stuck, go back to the basic circuit that you KNOW works... just to see if a component has failed or something.
(Right now you're kind of like someone learning to drive a manual transmission car. You want to go drive around downtown, but you are still stalling out at stopsigns. All you need is a little more practice on the basics.... and to _slow down_.)
Right now you are eager and impatient, and you just want to build something that does what you want, which is an advanced sort of JT. The circuits exist to do just exactly what you want! They are being discussed in the "Jule Thief" thread and some of the builders there are way waaaaay past where I am at.
But you've got to be able to get a simple circuit running reliably, and understand a bit of the basic electronic concepts, before you'll be able to build one of their circuits and have success with it. You are learning the pitfalls of working with components, and probably learning more than you wanted to or thought you needed to in the first place.
But this is a good thing, you are stretching your mind and growing, and pretty soon you _will_ have the circuit you want, lighting up several CFLs on small inputs and making bright light. Be patient, learn, observe carefully, don't be afraid to blow components, they are replaceable. Take small steps, starting from known locations, and be able to retreat when the going gets tough.
Often taking a walk with my dog helps me to clear up my muddled mind and I'm able to find a solution to a vexing problem by getting away from it for a while. Other times it just takes trial after frustrating trial before I get something to work right, or understand why I can't.
Okay it's working I think my meter is reading 20 volts I had hoped up just like you said positive side going to collector and the negative side going to the emmiter. At times it will go blow 1 volt but mostly stays around 19.7v. This is what should be happening right? If so what is my next step?
I should think you would be getting more voltage than that. You are using 2n2222a, right? And a 220R base resistor? And feeding with a single AAA or AA battery? Remember, I'm getting 70 volts in around 30 or 40 seconds, into the 22 uF cap, and my circuit is supposed to be identical to yours except for the difference in turns on your high-turn-count coil. And I think the fact that you have more turns should mean you can get a little higher voltage than me, but I'm not completely sure about this last part.
Also, the voltage should just climb steadily, getting slower and slower to climb, until it pretty much levels out and won't get higher. It should not drop down unless you are wiggling wires or something. If it's not steady, look for loose connections.
The next step will be to try more input voltage along with varying the base resistor. If you just increase the input voltage you can saturate the transistor and it will stop oscillating, so you may have to increase the base resistor at the same time. Go up to 2 AAA or AA cells in series, for around 3V input. If you use the same 220R you will see that the LED is quite a bit brighter, I think, but it may even look dimmer, if it's overloaded or the transistor is saturated. In that case go to a larger base resistor, next common value is 470R. But you can string resistors in series to get whatever you want, 320 or whatever. Use the cap to test the output voltage in the same way as before, without the LED. String several LEDs together in series, see how many you can get to light, without the cap. Try using the cap in series with a CFL: one side of JT output > cap > CFL > other side of JT output. Swap the connections around. Also try the LEDs in parallel.
ETA: I just tried 5 LEDs in series: no problemo, they light well on one battery and quite brightly on two, still using the 220R base resistor.
When you've gotten stable voltage readings using the cap, and are happy that you are getting the full output your unit is capable of, then try the stuff above. After that, the next step will be to go to a 2n3055.
There's a book you might like to look at, if you can find it. Usually at Radio Shack, I think. It's called Getting Started in Electronics, by Forrest Mims III, and it's full of information that you need, as well as a lot of fun circuits, cheap and easy to play with and even useful for stuff. Everything is drawn out very clearly using sketches of components as well as traditional schematics. I've just about worn my copy out! Had to put it in a binder.
I second the suggestion for any of Forrest Mims' books. The one on "Getting Started in Electronics" is a great choice.
You can preview it at Amazon: [size=78%]http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282 (http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282)[/size]
truesearch
i dont know why it is dropping in voltage like that then, my only conclusion is that it is from the same reason i have been having problems with this whole time, some wires not making good contact. and i can no solder so it is really starting to bother me.
but as far as the transistor no i have been using a 2n3055 the other ones kept braking the "legs" off when i would try to twist wires to them. and as i said before my base resistor is a 1k variable i decided to go with that one so i could just turn the knob and see what happened. other than that though yea my turns are the same, and i am using a AA battery. and i am using a 200v 22uf cap. i think the problem is my wiring. i can not solder and in the end after i finish any project that is always the problem or the down fall of the project.
i have tried for a long long time, at least two years constantly working on trying to learn how, even paid a jewelry maker to try to teach me how. no luck, since my back injury my hands are just no steady enough. and no matter how hard i try i just cant do it.. hell its hard enough just to work with these small parts.
@jhsmith87:
Sorry to hear about your difficulties with soldering. I can imagine the frustration and also the resulting inconsistent test results.
Have you tried using one of there devices? They will allow you to secure components and wires in-place. However, you will still need to run your soldering iron "by hand" to melt the parts together. . .
Link: [size=78%]http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_72865_-1 (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_72865_-1)[/size]
truesearch
yea i have one of those.. still no good.
Ah... I'm sorry to hear that, I was about to suggest the same thing. Harbor Freight has them for around 3 dollars, and I have two or three of them.
Yes, I agree that the problems are likely due to poor contact in the wiring. The lower your voltage, the more these little things work against you. Voltage is the ability to push current thru a resistance, so if your resistance is high and your voltage is low.... well, you don't get much action. And the operation of the JT circuit depends on oscillations, and if your contacts are "scratchy" all kinds of screwy things can happen to oscillators.
Soldering is definitely a skill that needs to be practiced, it needs a fairly steady hand and good vision. I usually use magnifiers when soldering, I use the "third hands" whenever convenient.... but being able to steady the hands is a real problem. You might be able to set up some kind of wrist rest that you can use together with the "third hands" and get steadier that way.
But in any case if you are careful with the breadboards and don't force too large wires in there--- or the leads of a 2n3055!--- they should work OK with good enough contact.
A 1K base resistor, as I found out, isn't enough to get into the adjustment range we need; I just made a video showing some variations on this circuit we've been playing with, lighting up a bunch of LEDs and varying base resistance with a 10K trimpot.... for higher input voltages than 2 volts, a 50 k pot will be my next test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X0oY_1UP3A
I though too that "breadboarding" is about the only other option if soldering is out.
And like TinselKoala pointed out it is paramount that good (ie low resistant) connections are made. You'll find that true with connecting test equipment such as oscilloscopes too. Otherwise the observed results can be very random.
truesearch
Yea I've practiced a whole lot just can't get it. What about this thing I saw it looked like a gun for soldering and from what I read it seemed instant. Like u put it to the wires pull the trigger and bam soldered. Is that true? Cause all I have now is a soldering iron. And it just takes longer to melt the solder than I can keep my hands from moving.
For the kind of work we are doing (and for any work) you need the right tools. A soldering gun is almost useless these days with the fine circuitry and tiny wires and all. I haven't had mine out of the drawer literally in years. The high heat they produce melts solder fast all right... and destroys delicate components. That's why all my projects didn't work when I was first starting out! I was frying everything with too much heat.
I'll say it again: an adjustable temperature-controlled iron is the best for our work. Like the inexpensive Weller WLC100 or similar. And you will use a very fine gauge of solder that melts fast. The Weller, when turned up to 5, will work very fast, I keep mine just over 3 for general work and usually only use 5 for unsoldering big stuff or heavy pieces of metal.
Also the heavy weight of the gun might actually be harder for you to handle than a pencil-type iron.
I would suggest borrowing a soldering gun if you have a friend that has one, and try it out; they usually are dual-heat and if you stay on the low heat setting you'll probably be OK; I'm worried about the weight and the size of the tip but if you can handle it that would be great, better than nothing, but not better than an adjustable pencil iron
With the proper iron and solder, and a wrist rest or brace, and an hour's practice..... I'll bet you'll be able to solder just fine.
Do you know the wattage of the iron you have? For our work 25 or 30 watts is plenty, maybe even too much at times.
For best results you need a fine gauge of solder, rosin core type for electronic work, definitely NOT acid core or fluxless, and you need a clean tip on the iron and it must be "tinned", that is, coated with the molten solder, but with no excess. The solder stations like the Weller have a little sponge holder, you wet the sponge, and then before every joint you wipe the hot tip in the moist sponge to clean and refresh it. Then, a tiny bit of molten solder on the tip will help transfer heat to your part. So it's like this:
0) before starting clean the cold tip with scotchbrite or sandpaper if necessary to get to a good surface. Heat up the tip and "tin" the tip fully all around with the solder you are going to use. Wipe off excess on the damp sponge.
1) make a good mechanical connection with your wires and parts
2) clean off the hot tip on the sponge
3) apply a _tiny_ bit of fresh solder to the tip to aid heat transfer... if you see a blob it's too much, go back to the sponge
4) press the tip to the joint to heat it up, count to four ( three or four seconds, longer if necessary but watch for overheating components)
5) flow fresh solder onto the hot joint, not the soldering iron tip, apply just enough solder to the joint to coat the parts in contact fully, but not a big blob, withdraw solder
6) leave the tip in contact for a second to make sure the solder has flowed and coated everything in the joint
7) withdraw tip
8) do not move the joint until the solder is hardened; if you do, reheat to melt completely again
I like to take some of the solder off the roll and wrap a few inches of it around a pencil or dowel and use that to apply the solder; this makes it easy to feed to the joint, better than trying to handle the larger roll.
Set yourself up some wires and practice soldering for a while. Practice makes perfect; this is a skill so don't expect to be able to do it perfectly right away... but please, don't give up, there must be a way to get past your tremor and steady your hands enough. Maybe a cushion for your wrist, or a sling, even. If there's a way at all we should try to find it. How's your handwriting? Holding the iron is a lot like holding a big pen or pencil.