Hi all;
I asked this question back on this thread; http://www.overunity.com/6763/energy-amplification/msg204948/#msg204948 (http://www.overunity.com/6763/energy-amplification/msg204948/#msg204948)
Can anyone replicate Tesla's Patent # 5777670 in solid state? If so please post any schematics which you think would do the same as the same analog circuit keeping all actions in the circuit as described by Tesla at:
http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-577,670-producing-high-frequency-currents (http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-577,670-producing-high-frequency-currents)
Thank you all for any input.
PS: @Shylo, thanks for bringing this subject up in thread http://www.overunity.com/6763/energy-amplification/msg350374/#msg350374 (http://www.overunity.com/6763/energy-amplification/msg350374/#msg350374) . I agree with you that at one point in the rotation that there is a shorting incident as mentioned in the following paragraph:
"The operation of the apparatus thus described is as follows: By the rotation of the commutator C the brush H is caused to pass over the projections d, closing the circuits through the primary K and the two condensers alternately. These two circuits are so adjusted as to have the same capacity, self-induction, and resistance. When said brush is in electrical connection with any projection d' from the part c' the circuit is closed between mains A and B through coil O', brush G', brush H, and coil K. Energy is therefore accumulated in the coil O'. At the same time the condenser N' is short-circuited through the brush G', brush H, and coil K, and discharges through this circuit the energy stored in it, the discharge being in the form of a series of impulses which induce in the secondary L corresponding impulses of high potential. When brush H breaks the circuit through coil O', the high-potential discharge or "kick" from the latter rushes into and recharges the condenser N', but as soon as the brush H has passed over the intervening block e and reached the next segment d it closes the circuit through coil O and short-circuits the condenser N, so that high-frequency currents from either one or the other of the two condensers are flowing through the primary K practically without interruption. Thus without increasing the size or power of the motive device or complicating in any material degree the commutator these devices are made to perform double duty and the output of the apparatus as a whole greatly increased. In Fig. 3 I have illustrated a modified form of commutator for this apparatus, which comprises a disk E, of metal, but insulated from its shaft. The periphery of this disk is divided into conducting and insulated segments by the insertion therein of insulated metal blocks f. The circumferential width of these blocks is three times that of the conducting segments f'. A brush F bears upon a continuous metallic portion of the disk or upon a continuous ring in electrical connection with the segments f' and is connected with one terminal of the primary K. Brushes F' F'' bear upon the periphery of the disk E and are connected to the main B through the two condensers, respectively. These brushes are capable of angular adjustment, so that they may be set to bear upon the disk at any two desired points."
Question is, can this be duplicated in solid state to have the same effect described as:
"Thus without increasing the size or power of the motive device or complicating in any material degree the commutator these devices are made to perform double duty and the output of the apparatus as a whole greatly increased."
Maybe it's already been done in which case please forgive my ignorance or it might not lead to OU but might lead to better COP.
PS: Forgot to post the picture of the device:
Thanks,
Paul
Hey Paul
Looking over it, and not feeling well today(flu), it looks like the Igniter for gas engines pat, but without any pause for charging the caps.
The igniter discharges the cap into a primary, while causing current to flow in the large inductor. When the switch releases, the inductor recharges the cap.
But here, we have 2 caps, 2 large inductors. While 1 cap is discharged into the primary, the other cap is being recharged..
Its like a push/pull switching power supply, but it is a push/push. I suppose the timing is set so that when 1 cap is fully discharged, then it switches to the other cap.
I dont believe there is any shorting of the caps to each other. Just the discharging of the caps into the primary is what he is considering shorting. Shorting the 2 caps would not make any sense really
Ill look it over a bit more later. Need to lay down for a bit.
Mags
You need to read all of the Tesla patents that pertain to Apparatus for producing Electric Currents of High Frequency. The Don Smith Coil setup and the Kapanadze device are both Updated Versions of one or more of those patents.. The Patent 568,178 has some very good information on what he does to achieve Resonance in both circuits. Figure 2 on this Patent page of TESLA is a perfect example of Don Smiths adjustable Coil arrangement
http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-568,178-regulating-high-frequency-currents (http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-568,178-regulating-high-frequency-currents)
The only major difference in the old Tesla Designs and the newer versions of them are the use of Circuit Timed Pulse modes that replace Teslas motor used to Turn the pulses on and off with a contact type pulley on the shaft of the DC Motor..
Tesla also says that placement of the Primary coil , the condenser and circuit ect.. Makes a difference in having a device that works..
So in the patent statement of the contacts of the Brushes around the metal disc, seems to say that two contacts are made at the same time. So would that mean that it pulses both the negative and the positive at the same time??
Hi All,
Paul ,I've read and re-read Teslas' but not sure I understand what he is saying??
My connections are different than his , I tried connecting the coils straight to caps ,but it didn't work.
You have to run the short through a coil that is stacked between 2 coils of ~ the same size
The heavier the wire guage ,the better.
The center coil and the outer coils are not connected.
It's a form of induction I think, but it will charge caps for free.
shylo
Quote from: Magluvin on January 10, 2013, 05:12:52 PM
Hey Paul
Looking over it, and not feeling well today(flu), it looks like the Igniter for gas engines pat, but without any pause for charging the caps.
The igniter discharges the cap into a primary, while causing current to flow in the large inductor. When the switch releases, the inductor recharges the cap.
But here, we have 2 caps, 2 large inductors. While 1 cap is discharged into the primary, the other cap is being recharged..
Its like a push/pull switching power supply, but it is a push/push. I suppose the timing is set so that when 1 cap is fully discharged, then it switches to the other cap.
I dont believe there is any shorting of the caps to each other. Just the discharging of the caps into the primary is what he is considering shorting. Shorting the 2 caps would not make any sense really
Ill look it over a bit more later. Need to lay down for a bit.
Mags
Hi Mags,
Get well soon,
"When brush H breaks the circuit through coil O', the high-potential discharge or "kick" from the latter rushes into and recharges the condenser N', but as soon as the brush H has passed over the intervening block e and reached the next segment d it closes the circuit through coil O and short-circuits the condenser N, so that high-frequency currents from either one or the other of the two condensers are flowing through the primary K practically without interruption."
Its not litterally short circuiting the caps or condenser to themselves, but discharging to coil K, again the process is repeated, is this a self charging, self running system? :o
I this what Tito is saying? Just the arrangement of the parts? Caps, coil, diodes, batt? :-X
I think it was much better to replace the commutator with vibrating switch or relay.
Quote from: Neo-X on January 10, 2013, 10:47:04 PM
I think it was much better to replace the commutator with vibrating switch or relay.
I think it can be done with mosfets and a timer circuit.
relay is better than mosfet in this circuit because it can handle large current, has low resistance and have fastest rising time.
Hi Everyone, thank you for your interest and responses, very much appreciated.
I originally posted this patent in another thread because I thought it would be interesting to make it if you could using off the shelf parts and an electronic controller instead of a commutator and brushes.
Since I don't know enough about electronics I thought I'd ask if it was possible.
I think because of the short in the circuit at different points maybe using brushes is the only way this circuit would work.
At any rate it's an interesting circuit.
@Mags, hope you're feeling better, I agree with your push-push analogy, interesting.
@elementSix, I've read the 568,178 patent and agree with what you stated, it's interesting that patent 577760 was filed later and uses a totally different arrangement than the previous, is it like you mentioned that maybe "pulses both the negative and the positive at the same time??", that's an interesting thought.
@Neo-X, when I look at the patent and the placement of the brushes I see a short in all three brushes then only two then three again, alternating both sides of the circuit with a short in between, could you time this sequence with relays?
Thanks everyone,
Paul
@goat
Maybe it can.. I noticed in the circuit that theres no spark gap. If it has no spark gap, the spark will appear in the commutator. Does this mean it was operate at low voltage or the commutator is a rotating spark gap and not really a commutator?
Hi Paul,
I did this for a project of pulsing DC power from ultracaps, after burning through a bunch of IRFZ44's and frying a small amplifier. It's a solar powered mechanical switch or pulser, the motor voltage and gear ratio determines frequency/pulse width. The leaf switch (salvaged from an old printer) has very little friction from the cam so this small solar cell 5vdc,24ma can easily run the motor. With two heavy duty leaf switches(or just make your own from metal binders) and a designed cam the Tesla patent switching could be replicated, it just won't be solid state.
Quote from: Goat on January 11, 2013, 11:53:21 AM
@Mags, hope you're feeling better, I agree with your push-push analogy, interesting.
Thanks. Ive been on vitamins and as much organics as I can 'afford' ;) . Wednesday I felt funny most of the day, left work half hour early, took a shower and went into full chill shakes, went to bed. Had caughs with a migraine like headache. Thurs was in and out of sleep all day, and thought friday I was not going to work. Got up today and was half way thinking yes and no. So I went. Sweated all day and a bit of a headache. Now Im almost out of it.
Past 2 days took a lot of vit c. 500mg is a normal dose, but 5g is max. I did 4g yest and today. Hopefully thats what knocked it out. Lots of water, organic carrot juice(Odwalla or Bolthouse). No dairy, and no congestion and little if any sniffles. ;)
Ok, back to business. ;)
Im going to make up a couple sims for demonstration. A push/pull and a push/push, if thats what anyone might call it. Ill see what I can do tonight here.
There might be something interesting with the push/push vs push/pull being that the field in the transformer isnt reversed in the push/push.
Tesla didnt have super caps. I believe the caps in that circuit were meant to be charged and near to fully discharged into the primary. If we have super caps in this circuit and just switched over from one to the other across the primary, there wouldnt be much variation/vibration in the primary to induce the secondary. ;) So all the parts, coils, caps, switch timing will need to be of certain values to obtain optimum... well what ever we are suppose to get. ;D
On the subject of Tesla. A friend of mine said he saw a show that said Teslas Grand daughter was murdered?? Jessy Venturas shows. Ill look it up in a bit. Just got in. I think it will make an interesting thread. Didnt know Tesla had kids.
Mags
what happens when you short a coil?
Nothing it goes dead, but release that short ,then it spikes!!
do what I said and you can catch the spike
shylo
Quote from: shylo on January 11, 2013, 09:22:05 PM
what happens when you short a coil?
Nothing it goes dead, but release that short ,then it spikes!!
do what I said and you can catch the spike
shylo
Hey Shylo
Can you show me an example in Teslas circuit above where the few turn primary is shorted? I dont see it.
Thanks
Mags
Here is the tesla circuit using an analog switch in place of the rotor switch. Like a relay that can work at high freq. Its easy to use before playing with transistors to see whats happening. Will work on this stuff more tomorrow. Still trying things.
This will give something to play with in the mean time. ;]
Using falstad.com/circuit/
Code to import
$ 1 5.0E-6 0.3638846248353525 33 5.0 43
l 256 80 256 224 0 1.0 1.8462050907301795
c 256 224 256 352 0 1.77E-6 20.82667114059785
c 640 224 640 352 0 1.77E-6 -1.9573827546986111
l 640 80 640 224 0 1.0 1.2643778578879938
T 400 256 480 320 0 1.0E-4 10.0 -1.5249927879194622 0.462000437107144 0.999
160 448 128 448 224 0 0.001 1.0E10
w 256 224 432 224 0
w 464 224 640 224 0
w 256 80 640 80 0
w 256 352 400 352 0
w 400 352 400 320 0
w 400 352 640 352 0
w 400 256 400 128 0
w 400 128 448 128 0
R 464 176 528 176 0 2 10000.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
v 160 352 160 80 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 160 80 256 80 0
w 160 352 256 352 0
r 480 256 480 320 0 89.0
o 15 16 1 291 37.41444191567111 9.765625E-55 0 -1
o 18 8 1 291 523.7424972633827 9.765625000000001E-155 1 -1
o 18 16 0 35 320.0 12.8 2 -1
o 2 16 0 291 80.0 51.2 3 -1
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on January 11, 2013, 07:20:24 PMDidnt know Tesla had kids.
Tesla was celibate and never married.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla) >> Relationships
Also, there are some biographies on the net.
Quote from: Qwert on January 11, 2013, 11:51:18 PM
Tesla was celibate and never married.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla) >> Relationships
Thats what I thought. Havnt gotten to look up what my friend told me. Im on it now.
Its possible he was mistaken. Will see. Jessy's shows have been cancelled.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on January 12, 2013, 12:07:28 AM
Thats what I thought. Havnt gotten to look up what my friend told me. Im on it now.
Its possible he was mistaken. Will see. Jessy's shows have been cancelled.
Mags
Yeah, did some searching, nada. Ill get with him on monday to see where he got that info.
Mags
Why are O" and O wound opposite directions in the patent drawing?reffered to as "chokes" being seperate O and O" in both fig 1 and 2 .I also noticed some odd differences in the comutator segments compared to the discription or ref. to them. (e,e"in fig 1) in the pic but only a mention of e in the discription.
The device looks like a mechanical dc to ac inverter with more user control over it by making different comutators.Segment spacing/speed, segment length/duration. Old auto ignition systems used dwell and gap in the same way.
Oooo :-* :o you are on good way.... :P I spent last few months trying to make simpler Tesla circuit with only one primary capacitor. It's hard to match elements , because Teslas device worked on high voltage but as you know we can't use high voltage easily to show there is much power indeed.... and switching HV is problematic
it's not funny when I think that in 2009 I was so close .... :-[
Well.....think about circuit when all reactive power is automatically converted into real one. It has to be special, very narrow band....
Good that this link still works http://sssf.byethost31.com/physics1/13961.htm (http://sssf.byethost31.com/physics1/13961.htm)
the obvious should be to you that bee is from outer spacetime ;-) where times goes by faster
the difference in time makes OU
"It is then discovered that the flexibility of the wing plays a significant role as well as the mechanical movement of the wing through the air and the speed at which the wing is flapped. "
;D
for a pulser ive once made a cap relay pulser one 12 v dc relay and a cap in a fluorescent ac lamp
in nc mode the cap is charging back the relay
if somebody can simplify the circuit or parts off the shelf then we can start the build startingwith the coil then pulser and transformer
shylo if you can share yours will be fine and others too
Mags' ,I'm not even sure it is shorting ,in the wrong spot the contact melts, in the right spot it still sparks ,but a different colour ,also the wire doesn't even get warm..picture I hope
Toto ,This is what I need ! Some way to dump caps in sequence?
Here are 2 coil stacks 1 on top of the other..
Each stack seems to be limited to 7 bridges.
More testing yet to do...shylo
Hi all,
This is my rough sketch of the patent with the revised switch, this switch may not be correct compared with the patent where the commutator at some point is both connected through coil k, the switch can be a DPST relay or mosfets, i've put the coils "o" on the secondary side which i believe they should be to pickup the kick from coil K, however, i don't know the effects of the reversed windings, how they work with the consensers or caps "maybe polarized or non polarized", maybe the caps should also be reversed dunno....
I know many have done this before like Mags, ;D Let's explore it further... Whats your take on this?
Hey Crazycut
Unless the description describes mutual inductance to other components by these 2 coils, I think the dirction of winding doesnt matter much. ;)
This circuit just may be a way of producing high freq/high voltage pulses to the transformer from a DC source.
It is definitely a dual rapid fire Igniter pat circuit.
If the caps values are smaller, during switch connection, the caps can resonate with the primary. But at disconnect, what state of charge might each cap be left with when the switch switches over? This causes offsets all over the pulse trace of random highs and lows. So I believe it is that each cap is just discharging in one direction into the primary, then recharged by the source through the inductor while the other cap is being discharged.
While writing that paragraph, I had a thought. If the switching is timed just right, the switch could possibly hold the cap across the primary long enough to allow the cap to discharge all the way to an opposite polarity(resonant oscillation) and back again till it is back near its previously charged state. This way consuming less from the input when recharging AND still providing a good up 'and' down pulse to the primary. :o ;) Being a full cycle discharge, the input to the primary is most likely getting more, than if just a high to zero discharge of the cap as I was thinking of earlier. ;) ;) Seems so. Will have to play with that.
In my mind, all things will need to be in near perfect tune. Coils, caps, timing. Maybe even the length of the connections between all components.
Mags
Quote from: Magluvin on January 13, 2013, 08:53:57 PM
Hey Crazycut
Unless the description describes mutual inductance to other components by these 2 coils, I think the dirction of winding doesnt matter much. ;)
This circuit just may be a way of producing high freq/high voltage pulses to the transformer from a DC source.
It is definitely a dual rapid fire Igniter pat circuit.
If the caps values are smaller, during switch connection, the caps can resonate with the primary. But at disconnect, what state of charge might each cap be left with when the switch switches over? This causes offsets all over the pulse trace of random highs and lows. So I believe it is that each cap is just discharging in one direction into the primary, then recharged by the source through the inductor while the other cap is being discharged.
While writing that paragraph, I had a thought. If the switching is timed just right, the switch could possibly hold the cap across the primary long enough to allow the cap to discharge all the way to an opposite polarity(resonant oscillation) and back again till it is back near its previously charged state. This way consuming less from the input when recharging AND still providing a good up 'and' down pulse to the primary. :o ;) Being a full cycle discharge, the input to the primary is most likely getting more, than if just a high to zero discharge of the cap as I was thinking of earlier. ;) ;) Seems so. Will have to play with that.
In my mind, all things will need to be in near perfect tune. Coils, caps, timing. Maybe even the length of the connections between all components.
Mags
Every option is possible, we just need to try and investigate more, this is just one part of the puzzle to be solved, i'm diggin my old stuff to try this again, will be winding the coils first wiTh thick primary low resistance, then i'll put secondary "o" coils cw & ccw.
Regards
Cc
Mags is correct, this is dual ignition patent to eliminate dead time of charging capacitor (Tito is using just DC-DC or DC-AC-bridge inverter here but Tesla matched all elements and have here dual DC to DC converters) . This is surely possible but dangerous (not circuit ::) ) - it was done many times. Look for PODMOD and history of inventor....
Quote from: crazycut06 on January 14, 2013, 12:45:35 AM
Every option is possible, we just need to try and investigate more, this is just one part of the puzzle to be solved, i'm diggin my old stuff to try this again, will be winding the coils first wiTh thick primary low resistance, then i'll put secondary "o" coils cw & ccw.
Regards
Cc
Bingo. :-* Plus narrow timings , plus ( ..............) =OU :-)
Quote from: forest on January 14, 2013, 03:23:46 AM
Bingo. :-* Plus narrow timings , plus ( ..............) =OU :-)
Hi forest,
You know more than us here, i know you have surpass the very basic of this, your expertise is badly needed hehehe.... ;D
Regards
Cc
I have looked into something similar, commutators vs SS switching. The problem with using SS devices to do this such as MOSFETS is the dissipation spikes that occur at the switching transients. In short you have to use devices that can handle many times the steady state current in order to handle the switching transients. Additionally, the devices must be configured as bidirectional switches, that is two back to back MOSFETS, in order to completely cut off the current. This configuration then necessitates the need for a floating gate control.
I spent months working out a solid state design for a Tesla switch. It can be done, although it is difficult and if run beyond their limits, the MOSFETS will blow from a dissipation spike at switching transient and leave the device still cold to the touch.
The diagram drawn by crazycut06 (http://www.overunity.com/13247/tesla-patent-577670/dlattach/attach/119502/image//)shows best
what the circuit does. (bottom diagram)
In Tesla's day there was no easy way to
produce oscillations so some rather unusual
mechanical devices were devised. It is a
capacitive discharge circuit as was previously
identified by Magluvin (http://www.overunity.com/13247/tesla-patent-577670/msg350526/#msg350526) and it does function as
a push-push exciter. The speed of rotation of
the switching system would have been very
critical, particularly if a True AC Output needed
to be attained. It would have been very difficult
indeed to generate a signal with any frequency
stability or waveform purity. The circuit is interesting
as an example of the innovative genius of Tesla but
would have very little application today.
To assist the capacitors better storing the
inductive kick of the two O inductors (O and
O'), a diode could be installed at the bottom end
of the inductors just before the connection
points to the brushes. The diodes would permit
the capacitors to charge to the higher potential
of the flyback pulses and also prevent the stored
charge from leaking off back through the inductors
to the main supply. This technique is known as
Resonant Charging.
The brushes could be replaced with either MOSFETs
or Thyristors (SCRs) which are alternately triggered
ON with some dead time between triggers. The output
taken from secondary winding L would most likely be
a series of high voltage discharges very much like from
an ignition coil but at a much higher frequency. At some
critical switching rate the output may even be AC if
synchronized with the resonance of the O inductors and
the capacitors.
Nowadays we are able to perform the similar function
to Tesla's circuit with semiconductor power oscillators
or an oscillator followed by a power amplifier stage.
If Tesla were alive today with all of the miraculous
semiconductor devices we have at our disposal he'd
show us a thing or two!
Tesla shows himself every now and then in all of us, his determination and ingenuity gave us the fundamentals.
It is up to us with all the electronic advances of today to make the best of the discoveries he made and give him his due credit.
It is what it is. It's another way to produce currents of high frequency. Just like the patent title says it does.
And just like SeaMonkey, Magluvin and whoever else may have mentioned, it uses one of my favorite inductor capacitor relationships, the Resonant Charging Circuit.
Cheers
Quote from: Farmhand on August 16, 2013, 04:29:39 AM
Tesla shows himself every now and then in all of us, his determination and ingenuity gave us the fundamentals.
It is up to us with all the electronic advances of today to make the best of the discoveries he made and give him his due credit.
It is what it is. It's another way to produce currents of high frequency. Just like the patent title says it does.
And just like SeaMonkey, Magluvin and whoever else may have mentioned, it uses one of my favorite inductor capacitor relationships, the Resonant Charging Circuit.
Cheers
Thumbs up to that! ;)