hi there.
i'm back at the english speaking part of overunity. i wish to gather more opinions about an idea i'm stuck with because it has become pretty quiet in my original thread and i thought by writing this here and in english i could accumulate even more people to pay attention to it. the thread title already tells its main idea. i think there is method to use the magnetic flux of a permanent magnet to produce an electirc current without moving him (like in a generator). It's a simple idea so if anyone else already had it and wrote it down somewhere i would appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction so i can update myself if there is any progress in this idea or if it has been proven to not work.
the description of my consideration is on the picture
@kelloggs:
Perhaps I'm not grasping everything that you are describing but doesn't it take a tremendous amount of energy to cool the superconductor-material down to the "superconductor-state"? The magnetic flux would need to cycle on/off for the pickup coil to absorb any energy. The superconductor-material would take energy to reach "superconductor-state" and then it could be allowed to warm back up to be non-superconductor again (which would take environmental energy so that would be "free"). However, it would take more energy again to cool it back off to be "superconductor".
Or am I not understanding?
truesearch
Quote from: truesearch on January 23, 2013, 10:31:06 AM
@kelloggs:
Perhaps I'm not grasping everything that you are describing but doesn't it take a tremendous amount of energy to cool the superconductor-material down to the "superconductor-state"? The magnetic flux would need to cycle on/off for the pickup coil to absorb any energy. The superconductor-material would take energy to reach "superconductor-state" and then it could be allowed to warm back up to be non-superconductor again (which would take environmental energy so that would be "free"). However, it would take more energy again to cool it back off to be "superconductor".
Or am I not understanding?
truesearch
well yes, on earth it costs energy to create such an environment because you have to compress gasses so they turn into liquids and then let them evaporate (which takes away energy) but if we look at this process scientifically it doesnt need energy to cool something. for example if we try this experiment in space the first energy impulse (induction voltage through flux change) would occure while the device is cooling (from room temperature and undergoing the transition temperature) without the input of energy but the produced energy could be used to heat the superconducting material over its superconducting state and we would get another flux change in our magnetic circuit. then we only have to wait until the temperature drops below transition temperature and the circle starts again. cooling does not need energy and it happens naturally. thats what i want to point out.
what would be interesting to know is of course how much energy you get from this flux change. how fast does it occure? how much voltage do you get? how much current can you drive with it and how long?
god damn, it takes ages for me to edit my text until i'm fully satisfied xD
@kellogs,
Wonderful idea, hope nobody have tried it yet and failed.
Since the very idea is to execute the COP>1 effect in "cold space", this idea initially seems mainly theoretical to poor guys like us. But besides just rudely doing the experiment
by cooling the encasement in a lab, there actually seems to be another possibility to implement this.
If I understand you correctly the superconducting material encasement described by you is supposed to trap the magnetic flux by creating a diamagnetic wall known to do the trick in superconductive experiments.
I found an interesting paper by NASA that indicates that maybe it is not neccessary to generate the flux changes by alternating the temperature,
which may take this idea beyond the present theoretical level.
NASA has done some interesting experiments with variable inductance elements using a solenoidal coil on a core of high permeability
jacketed by a superconductive sheath. A background magnetic field is used to switch the superconductive jacket between its superconducting and normal states.
As the jacket switches states the permeability of the total core changes between a perfectly diamagnetic state to one of high permeability.
Link to the NASA paper: http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%20trap%20the%20magnetic%20flux%20inside%20the%20superconducting%20material%20encasement&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fntrs.nasa.gov%2Farchive%2Fnasa%2Fcasi.ntrs.nasa.gov%2F19690012138_1969012138.pdf&ei=wVAAUbXKFcrbtAaL2oHoDg&usg=AFQjCNEqeTRbUb8h1Da1RtWDO6bVtCCznA&bvm=bv.41248874,d.Yms (http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=%20trap%20the%20magnetic%20flux%20inside%20the%20superconducting%20material%20encasement&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fntrs.nasa.gov%2Farchive%2Fnasa%2Fcasi.ntrs.nasa.gov%2F19690012138_1969012138.pdf&ei=wVAAUbXKFcrbtAaL2oHoDg&usg=AFQjCNEqeTRbUb8h1Da1RtWDO6bVtCCznA&bvm=bv.41248874,d.Yms)
But to implement the above described switching technology will for sure need some dire preparations, contrary to your setup which actually seems quite simple.
On the other hand, implementing high frequency flux switching may be what is needed to get some juice out of such a system.
There is only one way to tell if it works really, and that is by performing the experiment. I really don't think anyone can say it does or does not work.
Gwandau
@Gwandau
hmm, actually i like the idea with the magnetic field in the background. i read that too that an external magnetic field can "destroy" the superconducting state. if you switch it on the material is not superconducting and if you switch it off it becomes superconducting again at the same ambient temperature and like you said it's easy to get high on off switching frequencies. the superconducting material is already compromised by the magnetic field of the permanent magnet we have encased so we wont even need much energy to generate a magnetic field that tips the superconducting material over. pretty sweet idea. i'm gonna update my drawing.
hmm but i ask myself if it makes a difference if the magnetic field with which we switch the superconducting state has to be inside or outside the superconducting encasement. i dont want to push "our door" from both sides at the same time xD.
Hi,
I agree this is a nice idea, however I find it rather difficult to solve the problem of heat-cold isolation. At least I wonder how you would solve the heat-up versus the cool-down process, somehow you would have to make means to make it happen and that would need energy. Have you pondered on this? Or you expect energy gained from the cool-down process and with this gained energy you wish to make the heat-up process?
On youtube there are some videos showing the opposite side of the temperature scale: reaching the Curie temp of either a ferromagnetic core or a permanent magnet, the change in permeability or magnetism cause some effects. (I know you did not mean this of course.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLoDqDLsrGs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLoDqDLsrGs) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWrTvB-oK94 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWrTvB-oK94)
It seems the magnetic properties change rather slowly at the Curie temperature and the question is that at the other end of the temp scale, at the supraconductor temperatures how quick the changes are, you know the quicker the fluxchange the higher the induced 'juice'.
rgds, Gyula
hi gyulasun
yes, it's an issue to alternate the ambient temperature of our superconductor. it was a general idea that it should be possible to generate energy without "spending" energy (through the natural process of the universe "cooling" itself) but Gwandau mentioned a really good option where we only have to maintain a certain temperature:
quote from wiki
QuoteType-I superconductor
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(Redirected from Type I superconductor)
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The interior of a bulk superconductor cannot be penetrated by a weak magnetic field, a phenomenon known as the Meissner effect. When the applied magnetic field becomes too large, superconductivity breaks down
i assume a strong permanent magnet could prevent the superconducting state from even happening but i if we adjust the magnets strength so it is just beneath the superconductor breaking point we only need to use the least amount of energy to produce a magnetic field that tips the superconductor over but in return we get a full flux step that hopefully generates us our ou 'juice' :)
through the magnetic circuit it's possible to displace our pickup coil so its warmth from the current flow doesnt unnecessarily heat our superconducting material. with a good thermal isolation (a vacuum for example) we should be able to maintain the cryogenic temperatures at a minimum of energy cost.
Quote from: gyulasun on January 23, 2013, 07:06:47 PM
On youtube there are some videos showing the opposite side of the temperature scale: reaching the Curie temp of either a ferromagnetic core or a permanent magnet, the change in permeability or magnetism cause some effects. (I know you did not mean this of course.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLoDqDLsrGs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLoDqDLsrGs) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWrTvB-oK94 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWrTvB-oK94)
It seems the magnetic properties change rather slowly at the Curie temperature and the question is that at the other end of the temp scale, at the supraconductor temperatures how quick the changes are, you know the quicker the fluxchange the higher the induced 'juice'.
rgds, Gyula
well, in my original thread in the german forum i was thinking about that possibility too but i was given the opportunity to think again: what happens if you destroy the magnetic field of your magnet? well, you get the magnetic energy back you put in during the process of creating the magnet but then its gone. you wont get the magnetic field back without putting work in it so i ditched that idea.
v2
edit: holy shit, i was looking up some tables which list the Hc values of superconducting materials and i nearly got a shock that there are no materials which can withstand even 1 Tesla but luckily i found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superconductors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superconductors)
that MgB2 looks most promising as it has the highest Hc value so it can contain a strong permanent magnet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_diboride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_diboride)
edit: okay that was a fail... thats actually the Hc2 value because its a Type II superconductor but i cant find a table where the Hc1 values are listet because between Hc1 and Hc2 magnetic flux can already penetrate the superconductor... only the electric resistance stays zero between these values... great
i hate it that i can't find any table with Hc1 values...
lol, it seems like nobody is caring about that Hc1 value because everyone thinks that zero resistance is more important than deflecting magnetic field lines...