First, apologies to forum admin if I've posted my first post in the wrong section, please move it and let me know. I've just performed a 'search' for this coil question but didn't see anything relevant. I should point out I'm a DIY home enthusiast with some general service engineer background but none in this specific field.
I'm in the process of making a possible overunity device based on a mini magnetically levitated vertical axis system to remove as much friction as possible out of the equation. I've made 10 coils 15mm wide with 370 turns of .71mm magnet /coil wire. They are to be installed vertically so they pass between 12 pairs of 30mm X 30mm X 10mm 34kg pull magnets with 27mm between the faces of each pair. The magnets all alternate in polarity between each pair as I'm from the UK and aiming for a 240v AC output.
At present I'm not sure how to tie the coils together in series. I'm thinking the first thing to do will be to tie coils at 180 degrees to each other then tie the 5 pairs of coils together to create my output. To make each pair how do tie them? EG - inner coil wire to outer coil wire, inner to inner or outer to outer. Due to the relativly small thickness of the wire I was thinking that tieing them in pairs first would be more efficient for power output.
Next I was thinking I should tie the pairs together in series to create my output. I'm worried that due to my very limited experience with coils I'm 'missing something' and I can in fact only join each coil in series singularly and making pairs first won't matter. Any available youtube videos would be helpful!
Thankyou in advance for helping out this 'newbie'. I joined this forum because I need a little help. I will of course share my results with the forum one I finish my build.
First, thanks to those who looked at my post. Attached are some pictures so you can see what I'm trying to build. I already know joining the coils in series, inner wire to outer wire, does not work as the voltage is half of what a single coil can produce for the same rpm. I've put connectors on all the coil tails so I can experiment easier. First I'm in the process of upgrading the the fan moter to a 120w version. I was suprised how much drag the flux put on the system, 550rpm max with 1 coil down to 270rpm with all 10 coils fitted using the old 35w fan motor in the pictures.
Also heres some pictures on flickrhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/92089676@N05/with/8544595306/#photo_8544595306 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/92089676@N05/with/8544595306/#photo_8544595306)
check the wind turbines, how they are tied together
Hello aidrenegade,
You have got an interesting coil-magnet arrangement for sure. IF you do not have a dual channel scope to see the phase and amplitude relationships of the induced voltages between any two coils, then the best advice would be to rectify the output AC voltages of each of the coils and use a single puffer capacitor to collect them all into a common DC output. (RomeroUK used this method in his Muller motor/generator setup on this Forum).
Theoritically the amplitude and phase outputs ought to be identical in the coils which are just induced by the same pole magnet pairs (i.e. in every second coil if you have alternating magnet pairs) but due to the mechanical differences and differences in magnet strengths there are voltage and phase differences between the coils, this may make the outputs a bit lossy to sum.
Of course when normal diode bridges are used with 4 diodes in each, the power loss increases at the output because the forward voltage drop in a diode bridge doubles versus the half wave rectification (always two diodes conduct during any half wave) so perhaps using 2 diode full wave rectifiers instead of the 4 diode bridges can reduce diode losses to half. Here is a link to see a full wave rectifier with 2 diodes only and notice that it is also a voltage doubler so the DC output is twice the peak AC voltage coming from your coil: http://www.tubecad.com/january2000/img46.gif from this page: http://www.tubecad.com/january2000/page14.html So each coil of yours would have two diodes as shown in the gif image for one (secondary transformer) coil and the 2 capacitors would be the common summing point for all the 10 diode pairs, ok? (yes the two series caps would have all the 10 series diode pairs in parallel as is shown for the single diode pair in the picture and the center point between the capacitors (+ and -) would receive the 10 coil endings say A1, B1, C1 etc. as a big common joining point and the center point of any one individual diode pair (Cathode-Anode) would receive A2, B2, C2 separately for each diode pair of course. The summed DC output for all the 10 coils this way would be as shown as the output at the upper capacitor positive and the lower capacitor negative points.
So each coil output is efectively paralleled as a doubled DC voltage across the two capacitors.
You may not like to get DC output from your generator but this 2 diode full wave rectification method to effectively parallel the voltages from all your output coils seems the simplest solution to see the total power output your setup is capable of and makes it easier to compare to your input power. (DC output power is much easier to measure than AC output power.)
You wrote that the 10 coils when fitted caused drag (a loss) in rpm from 550 rpm (when only a single coils was fitted) to 270 rpm, driven by the 35W old fan motor. I guess this was simply caused by the total mass of the 10 coils versus the single coil mass and not by any eddy current drag caused by the closeness of inner aluminum plates to the center circled magnets used for the levitation? (as is shown in your above picture)
Did you use super glue to fix the magnets onto the Alu plates? Maybe this fixing solution is safe for the some hundred high rpm but in case your 120W prime mover motor would have rpms in the thousand rpm range then the magnets may fly away just because the nickel coating may get teared down by the rotational forces. I have seen such coating simply pealing away from the rest of the magnet material beneath it when a glued hard disk magnet was attempted to be taken off its shielding plate. IF your would-be motor has rpm over 1000 it is advisable to tape the magnets around their backing Alu plates too, to be on the safe side.
I am curious to know the output voltage amplitudes you tried to connect in series, of course it is rpm dependent too. If originally you wished to get 240V AC and planned for 10 coils then you may have expected 24V AC output from a single coil? I can see 12 magnet pairs for the 10 coils, if this is so, it makes any AC summing connections difficult because there will always be coils covered only partially by magnet pairs in any moment anywhere and this goes around cyclically.
One more question: within a magnet pair the facing poles are always unlike poles, say NS, and the next magnet pair coming just after the previous one has also unlike facing poles but with SN, right?
Greetings, Gyula
Thanks for the replies. I've since found this online:
http://www.stanford.edu/~hydrobay/lookat/pmg.html#sect-6-b
I've set up my coils as shown in the diagram for a sinle phase motor, I went inner wire to inner wire, outer to outer etc in series. @gyulasun, it was in this info I first realised I might have problems using 12 pairs of magnets but only 10 coils but I'll try the setup I have first. It will take a few days but I'll post my next results. I'm just after the 240v ac first and the rpm required to generate it. Also good point about the magnets covering giving way at speed, I'm hoping about 750 - 850 rpm should do it though. With no scope I'll have no idea of the hertz though I have a knackered old laptop I can try in addition to light bulbs or power tools. Yes the poles are NS SN NS etc.
Hmmm..... I'm thinking a conversion to DC output may be on the cards. My build quality means knocking sounds and too much vibration over about 500rpm. With the coils connected as above I still get the same result of about 3.3v at 270rpm. I tied 2 180 degree opposite coils inner to inner wire and got 39v ac at about 620rpm. Inner to outer wire was not worth the effort.
I will have to look more into converting to dc and possibly aiming for 12v and buy a cheap inverter. For ac I think 12 pairs of magnets but only 10 coils is probably causing problems.
So OK, after much wailing, knashing of teeth, swearing and possibly breathing in to much supa glue fumes I think I've managed to convert my magnet arrangement to all magnets set NS, NS, NS, etc to produce a dc current. I noted previously that 12v ac needed about 370rpm to produce. I'm leaving the magnets alone till tomorrow morning to (hopefully) ensure all the supa glue has dried so I can remove the spacers (see photo)
So now I'm into new dc experimtation. I've also brought a 700w, 12v dc / 230vac inverter. 240v output would have been better but I brought the best I could afford. This should'nt be a problem as I'm using a 400w rated dimmer switch to control power to the drive motor. Bearing in mind I'm not using any kind of 12v battery, and allowing for a bit of 'load', any ideas on what voltage I should feed to the 700w inverter? Of course as yet I have no idea what amps my 10 coils of 370 turns 0.71 enameled wire will produce at a 12v dc output.
For anyone across the pond I think .71 wire equals about 22 gauge wire as per this conversion chart:
http://www.calculatoredge.com/charts/msteelsheets.htm (http://www.calculatoredge.com/charts/msteelsheets.htm)
Can I measure the amps output at 12 v dc using my multimeter if there is no load on the coils? I'm sure this is 'schoolboy' stuff for many of you but I left school in '84 and most of this info is forgotten! Any help / ideas on how to test and see what I'm generating with a multi-meter would be helpfull!
Hi aidrenegade,
You still have 12 magnet pairs and 10 coil so you probably will not have DC output voltage directly from the coils and you may have to use rectifiers to get suitable DC voltage to feed the inverter. If this proves to be correct, then the links shown above to use a full wave rectifier with 2 diodes per coil only instead of a 4 diode bridge is still a good option (you can save half of the total diode loss). If this happens to be needed, the link above to such a rectifier is okay albeit it is a voltage doubler, you can control output voltage by the rpm control to your prime mover motor with the dimmer for sure. So I suggest paralleling all the coil outputs via the rectifiers into a common DC output.
Let's do some simple calculations. Your prime mover's motor power is rated as 120W, right? Let's remain in this power range, while it is okay that your inverter is rated to give out 700W. This latter means that at its 230V AC output it would be able to drive a load which draws about 700W/230V=3 Amper, ok?
At the inverter's input side this power would "translate" as follows: the inverter has its own efficiency which is load dependent too but let's say it has 90% efficiency at the 700W power level so at the input side you have to feed in 700W x 1.1 i.e. 770W. This would mean that at the 12V DC input level the DC current load towards you generator output would be 770W/12V=64.1 Amper! This is why I wrote above let's remain in the 100W power range instead of 700W, first of all due to your prime mover's power capability even if you consider your setup to be something extraordinary, right?
So in case you would load the 230V AC ouput of the inverter with a normal 100W 240V incandescent lamp, the input current demand at the 12V DC input would be about close to (100W*1.2)/12V=10 Amper (I considered only 80% efficiency in this case because inverters behave like that). This 10A current will demand about 1A current from each coil if you parallel all the coils via the diode rectifiers and store the total output energy in the capacitors. This now could be fulfilled by your setup when you use the 120W rated prime mover and a 100W load at the inverter AC ouput.
I know that this is a conservative and conventional approach but first I suggest to keep near to this power level for the first tests to see what your setup is capable of.
Regarding your question on "the amps output" at 12V DC: This is an impossible question, sorry to say so. Your coils behave exactly like generator coils would do so if you do not use a load, then no sense to measure the short circuit current, for an ampmeter does represent a practical short circuit across your output coils, should you connect one across a coil, ok?
The optimal case for a correct load instead of a short would be an impedance matched load at your generator coils output, this considers the DC wire resistance of the coils and their AC impedance at the given rpm. Just look for how to get maximum output power from a generator.
A good start here would be to use an Ohmmeter and measure the DC resistance of each coil (well they will be probably identical), this DC resistance will probably rule in the impedance because the inductance of your coils at the rpm range used may be less.
I suggest using the rectifier referred to above at a single coil output first (obtain at least 10A 40V Schottky diodes, from computer power supplies etc) and load the DC output with power resistors (but 12V car headlight bulbs may be used, remebering they are nonlinear), you may wish to use a DC voltmeter in parallel with the resistor or the lamp load and a separate DC ammeter in series with the resistor or lamp load. For the two electrolytic capacitors shown in the link, I suggest at least 10000uF or higher, with 25V or rather 35V DC ratings. OF course you know now that to load a single coil output with 1 Amper current the power resistor should be about 12V/1A=12 Ohm IF you adjust an rpm to have 12V DC across the capacitors when this 12 Ohm is connected. The heat dissipation in the resistor would then be 12Watt. Use car lamps accordingly and as per you wish to load the total output.
rgds, Gyula
Hmmm..... Dam it! I didn't see that one coming! With all magnets set NS, NS, NS etc the north poles are all facing inward, magnetizing the steel axle and over powering the levitation magnets and pulling the whole assembly down onto the coils. I guess first I need to try turning all the levitation magnets through 180 degrees to make them south pole to south pole and see if it makes any difference. If not I guess I need to make a non ferrous axle out of something.
Good news / bad news. Good news is that flipping the levitation magnets worked but it still puts out an ac voltage so it's time to look at the other suggestions made above. Note to self! Next build factor in the same number of coils as pairs of magnets.
Quote from: gyulasun on March 13, 2013, 07:10:41 PM
I suggest using the rectifier referred to above at a single coil output first (obtain at least 10A 40V Schottky diodes, from computer power supplies etc) and load the DC output with power resistors (but 12V car headlight bulbs may be used, remebering they are nonlinear), you may wish to use a DC voltmeter in parallel with the resistor or the lamp load and a separate DC ammeter in series with the resistor or lamp load. For the two electrolytic capacitors shown in the link, I suggest at least 10000uF or higher, with 25V or rather 35V DC ratings.
I've got to order these bits online as the local Maplins shop doesn't carry them. Guya, can you confirm I've got suitable components before ordering them via these links:
Schottky Diode 45V, 16A (not sure about the 'to 220v' bit): http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/product/163689/Vishay-MBR1645-SCHOTTKY-DIODE-TO-220AC-Schottky-Diode-45V-16A-TO-220-AC (http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/product/163689/Vishay-MBR1645-SCHOTTKY-DIODE-TO-220AC-Schottky-Diode-45V-16A-TO-220-AC).
Elecrolitic capacitors: http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/product/446191/15000F-Electrolytic-Capacitor-10mm-Vishay-2222-058-57153 (http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/product/446191/15000F-Electrolytic-Capacitor-10mm-Vishay-2222-058-57153)
Thanks.
Hi aidrenegade,
I would suggest using several smaller capacitors in parallel, this has two advantages: cheaper overall price and lower ESR as a result (ESR is equivalent series resistance of any capacitor, the lower this value the less loss is created inside a capacitor).
So at your local Maplin you may get 10 (or more) quantity of a 4700uF 35V (105°C) for Ł1.15 each, (quantity dependent), order code N97KF
So you may wish to parallel 5 such 4700uF and call it as C1 group and paralell the other 5 and call it as C2 group. One such group would work as one of the caps in the rectifier circuit I referred to earlier and the other such group would work as the other cap there.
Regarding the diodes, it is a good choice you show (TO 200AC refers to the case style) but you may find similar at Maplin, see MBR3045PT (45V 30A) price Ł0.99 if you buy 20 quantities it is Ł19.80 order code N18CC (you need 20 because of the 10 coils) Notice that these are dual diodes, actually two diodes are manufactured into a single case with common cathode and you can connect the two anodes together to get a single diode from the two, this decreases the overall diode loss some percent (7-8%) too. (Data sheet for the diode: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MBR3045PT-D.PDF (http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MBR3045PT-D.PDF) )
I think if you can stay with the 10 coil - 12 magnet pairs it would be better than using equal number of coil-magnet pairs. Further if you could keep the safety tapes wrapped around each magnet, your setup would be much safer at higher rpms.
Gyula
Dam it! Build quality let me down! At about 700 rpm one of the magnets came loose, took out 2 coils and loosened another 2 magnets. And on the day my diodes & capacitors turned up in the post too. Wish I had maybe £500 or £600 to get an engineering firm to build a decent, ballanced engineered part of my build to take out the weak areas! So, 2 new coils to wind and 2 magnets to re-fix into position (guess I need more supa glue....)
OK, I finally built a new assembly to hold the magnets (see pic below). I went for 10 pairs of magnets as I have 10 coils but I'm still producing ac voltage, 6v at 532rpm. The whole thing does now seem more balanced in operation and a bit less noisy. Time to install the diodes / capacitors and get the voltage doubled and converted to dc.
(QUOTE) "Notice that these are dual diodes, actually two diodes are manufactured into a single case with common cathode and you can connect the two anodes together to get a single diode from the two, this decreases the overall diode loss some percent (7-8%) too."
Does this simply mean solder the input side of the magnet wire to both outer legs as per the wiring diagram?
So I've fitted 5 2 diode full wave rectifiers / voltage doublers to 5 of my coils. Needed to order a few more capacitors to finish the job but started to experiment with these 5 outputs connected in parallel. I'm finding it really difficult to find the 'sweet spot' with the 400w rated dimmer switch. Momentum of my motor / magnet arrangement combined with the slower discharge of the capacitors is making using the dimmer switch to 'fine' control the motor feed voltage to control the dc output difficult.
Any ideas for a voltage control system to replace the dimmer switch are welcome! As I type, I've been trying to find the perfect setting of the dimmer switch, it seems to be settling down but it's already taken 1 1/2 hours! Using a dimmer switch may infact be a built in fault if it can't output a finer level of voltage. Add to this the fact that the motor is controlled from a UK 240v ac mains (at present) when my inverter will have a 230v ac output I see a lot more swearing and knashing of teeth ahead!
Currently output voltage is varying between 12.25v and 12.68v (dc) but it may still be slowing down over all. At least I know the fan motor will keep going and no where near it's 240v max imput voltage. Not going to waste time trying to actually measure this voltage till the rest of the full wave rectifiers are fitted. In regard to your typical 12vdc / 230vac inverter, the book doesn't state a +/- tolerance for the 12v dc input, does anyone have any ideas on this tolerance?
As always, in advance, a big thankyou for your input! Don't be shy with your comments, one may point my mind in another direction of thought that you were not thinking of!
More Thoughts....
Just a few minutes after posting the rpm started dropping (and so the dc output). I've already asked for a possible replacement idea for the dimmer switch.
Iwas also wondering if the 4uf / 400VAC capacitor that is attached to the motor may be causing problems. I know virtually nothing about motors and have no idea what this capacitors job is. There was no capacitor fitted to the first fan motor I started experimenting with.
Can I just cut out this capacitor and tie it's 2 leads together?
Although the fan motor doesn't get too hot to touch I appreciate that the fan blades it was driving also helped keep it cool. Could this be a problem in the motor when used in my build?
I'm currenty feeding the 3 speed fan motor through the live wire that that gave it it's highest speed setting. Would it be worth trying to feed it through the midde or lowest speed live wire? Afterall, I'm only looking for about 340 - 350 rpm. Could this be why I'm having so much trouble controlling the motors speed?
30 minutes later....
Tested this last thought! With the lowest speed wire the rpm kept increasing when the dimmer switch was turned down to it's lowest.
Middle speed wire had same problem....
Tried using a 250w rated dimmer switch and this made the problem worse. Hmmm... Maybe a higher wattage dimmer switch may solve the problem, time to get searching online....
Hi,
Probably you did it correctly but I editied your picture to show the diodes connection. So you make a single diode with the indicated common anodes ( cathodes are connected inside the case), and one such connected MBR3045 will be used as a single diode, and should be connected as the voltage doubler schematic indicates them, ok? It means that for any one coil you need to use two such MBR3045 diodes, each prepared with the piece of wire as shown, ok?
Re on your dimmer control, normally such dimmers do not really designed for motor control but for incandescent lamps i.e. inductive loads like your motor may ruin it or influence its operation. If you can obtain a dimmer for higher power than the present one you may try it but I cannot tell whether it would be good on the long run. A much better slution but more expensive is to get a Variac, a variable rotary autotransformer (NOTICE it does not give a galvanic isolation from the mains!!!)
See here what I mean: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R2.TR3.TRC0&_nkw=variac+variable+transformer&_sacat=0&_from=R40 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R2.TR3.TRC0&_nkw=variac+variable+transformer&_sacat=0&_from=R40)
Here is a 700W+ (240V/3A) type: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Variable-Transformer-3A-240V-Open-Type-Variac-3-Amp-/290807447062?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item43b5797e16 and will serve you for long, for other purposes too. With such variac, any AC voltage coming from the 240V AC mains can be set and the AC current maximum is specified for each variac you have to pick for your motor needs.
IF you do not load with anything your 12V DC output (with car lamps or whatever) then the charge is stored in the capacitors for a long time so a small change in rpm on the fan motor will not be noticed, But across a load which takes the charge from the caps you will see small rpm changes too.
The 12V DC input range for an inverter is normally specified in its user manual or data sheet, if you do not have such, try to look for it on the web, you may have luck to find it. In most of the cases the input range is governed by the normal lower discharged state of the 12V batterys, maybe this is at 11.7 or so and the upper limit may be 14V or so.
Re on your 4uF capacitor on the fan motor, you should not deal with it, it belongs to the fan motor, once you found on it, it needs it, it is probably the so called 'run' capacitor for the AC motor, google the web what a run or runner capacitor is for a single phase motor.
Your fan motor can get warm or hot when you load your generator with useful load and it makes the fan motor as the prime mover 'sweat'... and yes the original blades may have helped it cool. So you have to watch for the temperature of your fan motor during the tests.
I still think that from Lenz drag point of view you would be better off when you have an odd - even pair of coils and magnets... now that you rebuilt the setup to have equal number of coils to that of the magnets this die is cast... ?
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on April 04, 2013, 06:20:49 PM
IF you do not load with anything your 12V DC output (with car lamps or whatever) then the charge is stored in the capacitors for a long time so a small change in rpm on the fan motor will not be noticed, But across a load which takes the charge from the caps you will see small rpm changes too.
I still think that from Lenz drag point of view you would be better off when you have an odd - even pair of coils and magnets... now that you rebuilt the setup to have equal number of coils to that of the magnets this die is cast... ?
rgds, Gyula
All my rectifiers are now built and connected to coils then connected in parallel. Not got a variac yet but still experimenting. No load gives 12v dc @ 342 rpm. Putting on load is a different matter. Just a 12v dc 21w bulb puts on enough drag to slow rpm to about 228 & a output voltage of 4.2v dc. Even with the dimmer turned on to full 240v supply my 120w motor can't turn any faster.
RE: Lenz drag which I've definately got, I can't fit any more magnets to the inner ring due to the brackets I'm now using but I will make some more brackets and see if I can squeeze more magnets in around the outside ring.
4 Extra magnets around the outer ring made only a slight improvement but I could'nt balance out the magnet assy to get it to run smoother. Next I reverted back to the 10 pairs of magnets only but also back to a N/S, S/N, N/S etc etc arrangement. On the plus side I now only need about 240rpm to generate 12v dc. On the minus side the Lenz drag might be even worse.
If I can get hold of an old 12v car battery I'll see If I can use my device to charge it, a bit like a wind turbine would I'm hoping. Any ideas on what the result will be? Will drawing load from the battery still cause Lenz drag on my device? Any other thoughts anyone?
Hi aidrenegade,
In your setup the Lenz effect is inherently 'included', unfortunately. What I wrote so far as suggestions were aimed at reducing any possible loss which also inherent in the usual circuits.
Your attempt to charge a car battery will also involve Lenz drag, albeit the charge current taken from your coils may be less then a direct bulb load across the output so you may experience less drag, depending on the charging current value taken.
If you wish to see motor or generator setups that allegedly has a low Lenz drag, I can direct you to some videos on that but due to lack of information from the author so far, no real measurements have been revealed. For a no Lenz no back emf motor setup watch this video: http://www.general-files.com/go/147592130300 and also another one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TICXxP1jI4
On generators, you can find so called low Lenz setups on this youtube channel (no real performance measurements have been shown though):
http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnikerX/videos start with the lower left video, it was the first).
Another video series on this low Lenz generator setup is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aXPeOHV0B8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tupA4Y-wqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUilkDpvsiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wja4TIeW_d8
If you ask me on these setups I think that the first two videos may indeed show pulse motors with very good efficiency while the videos on the generators may or may not show low Lenz drag, only correct tests can give answers .
Finally, here is a patent application on a pulse motor from Paul Babcock where you can also see permanent magnets as rotors embracing cylindrical stator coils in a ring: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110156522
rgds, Gyula
:o :( After a bit of a break away from this project today has proved a disaster! So where did I go wrong with this coil idea? It was kind of inspired by the low lens drag video:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/bfgzfl69Q20 (http://www.youtube.com/embed/bfgzfl69Q20)
My coil wont produce any voltage! I thought that winding it together as per this photobucket slideshow would reduce lenz drag:
http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/wayfoward/slideshow/coil (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/wayfoward/slideshow/coil)
Note how the mild steel bar I used as a core does not rotate. Instead I wound the 10 rolls of enamel wire around it in a clock wise direction, overlapping previous layers continually moving in a clockwise direction as indicated in the first 11 photos by the lettered coil rolls. I've tried both DC and AC configurations of my 35kg pull magnets. They are a bit further apart so I was expecting to need higher revolutions compared to my old setup. Not a single volt at 500rpm was a complete suprise! I've checked all tails to make sure there are no continuity breaks in the enamel wire.
Hi,
I am afraid you have managed to assemble a setup by "overcombining" some pieces of information. I mean the links I referred to do not clearly indicate a continuous ring core, where-ever such seemingly continuous rings are shown with several coils on their outside, we do not really know for certain whether the magnetic core is a continuous ring (cut at say one place only, like you show) or it is made from short pieces of cores with air gaps inbetween?
Another issue may be the mild steel bar you use as a core: how it performs really as a core when either you DC pulse it or feed with AC current? I think of eddy current losses.
Anyway I cannot imagine that the core shape as you would like to use it as a common core for each coil could perform correctly, I can only think of individual (as short as the coils) cores for each coil, with air gaps between the facing ends... that way the magnetic poles in each short core could develop and change in strength when a magnet passes by so there must be a better chance for induction. With a continuous long ring like core this is unlikely to develop, this is what I think.
I may sound to suggest chopping up your mild steel core for coil-long pieces... so if you do not mind doing that, just do it. Before that, have you measured the inductance of the coils individually with an L meter? If there is a short then the inductance is small hence no much chance for receiving induced output voltage. Of course I speculate you might have a short.
rgds, Gyula
Quote: "Before that, have you measured the inductance of the coils individually with an L meter? If there is a short then the inductance is small hence no much chance for receiving induced output voltage. Of course I speculate you might have a short."
I have a capacitance meter although I've never used it. Looking online I see dual capacitance / inductance meters for sale. What is the differance? Can I work out the inductance with a reading from my capacitance meter (needs a battery first) or should I buy an inductance meter for the job.
Hi,
Watching again your mild steel core, how did you fasten its ends to form the ring? Did it become a continuous metal ring with no air gap? In your 1st picture there is the bare long rod bended and in your 2nd picture I can see a thicker ring already in a full circle, covered with black tape?
And how did you try to induce voltage with the magnets: how you moved or rotated the magnets with respect to the ring core? Could you show a picture on the magnets arrangement? It would help me to ponder on further... :)
Well, if you wish to make several coils in your tinkering hobby on the long run, then an L meter or LC meter would be worth investing. See these choices:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-LCR-RCL-INDUCTANCE-Capacitance-Resistance-Meter-/140968592347?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item20d26203db (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-LCR-RCL-INDUCTANCE-Capacitance-Resistance-Meter-/140968592347?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item20d26203db)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-C-Inductance-Capacitance-Multimeter-Meter-LC200A-Tool-DC-USB-Cable-/160862532321?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item25742772e1 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-C-Inductance-Capacitance-Multimeter-Meter-LC200A-Tool-DC-USB-Cable-/160862532321?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item25742772e1)
The first type is probably the same as the XC-4070L for which there is a user manual online: http://pikirsa.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/lcr-newcason-xc4070l-user-manual/ (http://pikirsa.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/lcr-newcason-xc4070l-user-manual/) and it turns out the measuring frequency for the coils is 100 Hz which is low enough.
The second type (LC-200A) has two measuring frequencies: around 500 kHz and at around 500 Hz which is very good (i.e. it uses two frequencies and the actual frequency can be seen on the display with function button pressed) but for using a coil at or lower than 40-50 Hz, especially with a core working at 50 Hz or so (and being lossy at higher frequencies), it is not a good idea to measure it at even 500 Hz, it will have a more or less modified value at the lower frequencies. Nevertheless, the wider measuring ranges and precision of the LC-200A are more attractive than that of the CA-4050L (with XN- or BN- prefix also probably the same 4070L type), albeit this latter measures inductances at 100 Hz.
(here is an attractive looking meter http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UT602-UNI-T-Modern-Inductance-Capacitance-Meter-Uni-Trend-/290787278384 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UT602-UNI-T-Modern-Inductance-Capacitance-Meter-Uni-Trend-/290787278384) and its measuring frequency is 1 kHz up to the 2 Henry (from 2 mH) range and 100 Hz only in the 20 Henry range)
Regarding your present C meter, my question is whether its measuring frequency is specified in the user manual or could be figured out from the web by searching for it by type? IF there is no any data on this, do you have a frequency meter, able to measure around 100 Hz to a few kHz? like a digital multimeter often has such feature or you have access to an oscilloscope?
The reason I ask is that probably by connecting a known good quality capacitor in series with an unknown coil you could see the modified capacitor value on the C meter and doing some calculations you could arrive at the coil inductance but for this you would need the exact measuring frequency of the meter with that series LC reactance combination.
Gyula
Here's an online pdf user manual for my capacitance meter: http://www.peakelec.co.uk/resources/esr70_userguide_en.pdf (http://www.peakelec.co.uk/resources/esr70_userguide_en.pdf)
The last coil has now been broken down and wound back onto the individual reels (about 35m of 1mm wire each). I will use each reel as a coil. I was hoping that by measuring the inductance of each reel and unwinding reels as required to give each one the same inductance they would then produce about the same voltage at a given rpm, not more than 600rpm. I just need the cheapest meter good enough to do this. When I rebuild my magnet assy with 10 reels and 10 pairs of magnets I will us a dc NS, NS, NS etc arrangement and aim for a direct dc output without need of the joule thieves.
Looking again at the low lenz drag video:http://youtu.be/bfgzfl69Q20 (http://youtu.be/bfgzfl69Q20) I notice that the air gaps are about the same length as each coil (or reel). I will try 10 coils first with small air gaps between coils and if it doesn't work I'll reduce the number of magnets / coils and try to reproduce a simular assy to his. I've yet to get hold of an iron bar of about 15mm dia to make cores for the reels.
Hi,
From the user manual it is clear (page 5) your cap meter uses 100 kHz measuring frequency which is very good for capacitors and for learning about their ESR (equivalent series resistance) values but this frequency is rather high for an iron bar core so I suggest buying the L meter shown in my first link above (it is within the UK).
By the way, I would not recommend using iron bar for your cores, their eddy current heat losses will be high even at low RPMs. Try to use ferrite cores, even ferrite beads used for high frequency interference supression would be good. I mean these with OD=14mm and length is 28.5 mm: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Pcs-14x7x28-5mm-Toroid-Ferrite-Cores-Dark-Gray-for-Power-Transformers-/190877021677?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item2c712835ed and you could simple insert them into your reels. Or if you can find similar toroidal cores cheaply with OD=14 to 15 mm you can also have them to fill up the reels with them.
You refer to the low lenz drag video again and I repeat again it is not proved by measurements that the "low lenz drag" is indeed true in practice i.e. it means a better performance indeed with respect to conventional setups. Notice the air gap between the core and the inner circle of the magnets, it is at least 2 - 3 cm gap and this may mean a low lenz effect just because the magnetic induction is low. I do not mean the gap between two neighbouring (adjacent) cores. The closer the magnet to a core, the higher the induction but the higher the Lenz effect and vice versa. This is good to keep in mind. Until no practical measurements with real loads are done we cannot say it is a low Lenz setup indeed.
Gyula
Hmm, I seem to be getting worse at this not better. Not got my ferrite cores yet but tried a setup with the 10 coils in a vertical orientation and couldn't get a volt out of them. I had unwound some of them to get their inductance values within .21mh on my meters 20mh setting. Also my magnets are now set up to produce dc voltage which meant playing with my levitation magnets to.
Not a single volt at almost 700rpm out of any coils, at which point I suffered a mechanical failure. Repaired my magnet assy and tried to generate a voltage using just a couple of coils in a horizontal plane like in the low lenz drag video but still no volts, dc or ac. All coils pass continuity test.
Heres a quick little slideshow link: http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/wayfoward/slideshow/coil%202 (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/wayfoward/slideshow/coil%202). Am I missing anything obvious?
OK, first problem is that I should be using repelling poles, eg n-n. I found this page online:
http://www.overunitybuilder.com/lenzlessquale.html (http://www.overunitybuilder.com/lenzlessquale.html). Also backed up by this other yt vid about the yt example linked to earlier by Gualsan, read the comments, some english explanation given. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX5ukoC-WXU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX5ukoC-WXU)
I'm rethinking my setup. I will figure out how to build a 6 coil, 6 sets of magnets setup. I'm thinking of utilizing a 120 degree angled triangle idea to aim 3 of my 35kg pull repelling magnets at the coil center. Think I was letting my thinking become 'blinkered' and less open.
Also found this related link: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Daniel_Quale_Lenzless_Generator (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Daniel_Quale_Lenzless_Generator)