would this work ?
the wheel is completely submerged underwater.
it consists of A legs, with one leg containing a float (light blue) and the other a weight (red).
the buoyancy of the float is equal to the downward force of the weight .
as the wheel rotates, the A-legs " in the 1:30 position on the top right side in pic 1" start to open due to the float being on the upper arm of the A-leg, and the weight on the lower arm of the A-leg.
the A-legs on the opposite side of the wheel " in the 7:30 position on the lower left side of pic 1" start to close due to the weight now being on the upper A-leg arm, and the float on the lower arm of the A leg.
what hasn't been included in the diagram is the secondary mechanism that the arms move to create overbalance as the arms move in and out.
the floats and weights would be more forceful than the secondary "overbalance" system it moves.
e.g. 10 liter float filled with Air on one of the arms of the A-leg pair, 10 kg weights on the other arm of the A leg to lift 5kg on the secondary system, to create an overbalance for rotation
pic 1. shows a basic design with 4 pairs of A legs with weights and floats.
pic 2. is a 180 degree mirror image of the design in pic 1 and runs on the same axle.
pic 3. the combination of pic 1-2 running on the same axle.
Added another pic that basically shows a system of weighted arms that would be moved by the A-legs system.
had not included them in the previous post, as the system shown in the previous post that shows a mechanical system that stays in balance when turned 360 degrees, and stays in balance during the movement of the opening and closing of the A-legs.
The movement of the A-legs could be used with a variety of systems to create the overbalance or rotation of the wheel.
e.g. hydraulics, pneumatics e.t.c.
Quote from: roberval on June 03, 2013, 12:13:00 PM
would this work ?
No. General physics applies to the buoyancy effect as well. Something has to give if something is gained.
You can make it work if you apply different temperatures in the water to the left and right. This will change density on both sides, but you have to keep applying energy to make that happen.
So what you have designed is a wheel that conserves energy perfectly ;-)
Vidar
Vidar,
attached another variation of the design, as the 2 halves of Pic 1 and Pic 2 are joined on the same axle
with the result being what is shown in pic 3 without showing the secondary system
Pic 4 is only showing 1 half of the system which is basically showing sliding weights in pink that the A-legs move to create the overbalance.
Starts to get a little too complicated when trying to show several devices in a 2 dimensional drawing.
pic 5 shows the position of the open and closed pair of A-legs as it is every 90 degrees.
it consists of 8 pairs of A-legs with 8 floats and 8 weights.
when the wheel turns 90 degrees CW the No8 pair of legs start to open as the float is now on the upper leg, and the weight on the lower leg.
the no 7 pair of legs start to close, as the float is now on the lower leg, and the weight is on the upper leg.
the no 3 pair of legs start to close, as the float is now on the lower leg, and the weight is on the upper leg.
the no 4 pair of legs start to open, as the float is now on the upper leg, and the weight is on the lower leg.
2 pairs of the legs "180 degrees apart" can perform work together when they open or close.
if the weights were 1 kg and the buoyancy of the floats are equal to the downward force of the weights e.g. 1 liter air filled float plus the extra needed to balance the weight of the A-leg arm, the float shell e.t.c.
the 2 pairs of A-legs would produce 2kg lift, and 2kg down force when they open or close.
checked out the difference in buoyancy due to depth, if the wheel is only 1 meter from end to end, the lowest floats would have about a 10% increase in buoyancy compared to the top float, though as in the example above if the 2 pairs of A-legs has a 2kg upward force and 2 kg downward force they should easily be able to lift a 1 kg weight, which would create much more overbalance compared to about 200grams of difference in buoyancy caused by the 2 lower floats.
if i were to manually rotate the wheel 90 degrees, 2 pairs of A legs would open, and another 2 pairs of A-legs would close, with the result being the same position as in Pic 5, which looks balanced.
the secondary system that creates the overbalance has not been included in Pic 5, as it starts to get too complicated on a 2D drawing, besides the secondary system is just a matter of simple mechanics or a variety of other systems that could produce rotation.
The main point of the system shown in Pic 5 is that it stays in balance during rotation while 2 pairs of A-legs open, and another 2 pairs of A-legs close which can be used to perform work on the secondary drive system which turns the wheel.
@roberval
There are less complicated ways to check gravity - buoyancy wheels. I don't say your design is bad, of course.
All the best.
Rafael,
i understand why the 2 designs you posted don't work.
the system i posted in Pic 5 shows a wheel in perfect balance during it's 360 degree rotation, apart from the difference in buoyancy due to the depth of water.
the confusion might lie in the fact that the design needs a secondary system to create rotation, though the most important part of the design is a system that stays balanced, and has the ability to perform work due to the A-leg movements, which can be utilized by a secondary system to create the overbalance.
if this was a gravity only wheel (not submerged underwater) that stayed balanced while the A-legs opened and closed, turning the wheel by hand would be similar to turning a flywheel with no back force.
It would then simply need a secondary system that utilized the movement of the A-legs to create the overbalance.
I'm glad you include an arrow to indicate the direction of rotation. Because without that arrow, the devices sketched would turn equally well in either direction, since they aren't actually overbalanced at all.
The Anwser is No.
I have never seen a proof of concept of either a buoyancy or gravity device that could self run let alone produce any excess energy.
Quote from: TinselKoala on June 04, 2013, 09:15:57 AM
I'm glad you include an arrow to indicate the direction of rotation. Because without that arrow, the devices sketched would turn equally well in either direction, since they aren't actually overbalanced at all.
;D You know.. the submarine wheels have a big advantage over the classic ones. Especially when you have a swimming pool on your court and don't have a basement... Moreover they are lighter.
Quote from: Rafael Ti on June 04, 2013, 05:19:09 AM
@roberval
There are less complicated ways to check gravity - buoyancy wheels. I don't say your design is bad, of course.
All the best.
Pic no. 2 is a classic. The amount of air inside the pockets can't be more than the weights can push out or suck into them. There is a relationship between the weights and the amount of air. This relationship is ofcourse perfectly balanced and equal in both directions.
Vidar
Pic no. 2 is a classic. The amount of air inside the pockets can't be more than the weights can push out or suck into them. There is a relationship between the weights and the amount of air. This relationship is ofcourse perfectly balanced and equal in both directions.
Vidar
;D Vidar.. of course you need to do your homework on this forum. Norway is rich thanks to oil, however some other countries are rich in water ;) .
So what if the solid weight causes more force than the pocket filled with the air? Air pockets in conjunction with the weights make the left side of wheel lighter and it doesn't matter that solid weights are heavy. They should be heavy enough to pump the air from place to place however air will make one side lighter than opposite one.
All the best
Quote from: Rafael Ti on June 05, 2013, 02:25:07 PM;D Vidar.. of course you need to do your homework on this forum. Norway is rich thanks to oil, however some other countries are rich in water ;) .So what if the solid weight causes more force than the pocket filled with the air? Air pockets in conjunction with the weights make the left side of wheel lighter and it doesn't matter that solid weights are heavy. They should be heavy enough to pump the air from place to place however air will make one side lighter than opposite one.All the best
Yes, the greater air volume on the left side is more buoyant than the one on the right. But also the weights on the left is in average further from the hub than the weights on the right. The drawing has a minor flaw that does not show this correctly. The bottom volume should be smaller than the one on the top for example. This will arrange the positions of the weights differently.
Yes, Norway is a rich country, but most of our electric power comes from hydroplants - waterfalls that are found everywhere in the mountains, but also power plants in rivers, dams, etc. So we know well how the water should power our homes and the factories.
No matter how much or little money you got, you cannot trick nature. Gravitywheels like these will not work.
Vidar
made a huge stuff up, it was right in front of me.
for some reason i kept thinking about the paired weights and floats being balanced,
somehow the obvious flaw had been overlooked, which is at the 12:00 and 6:00 position 2 floats are at top and 2 weights at the bottom when the arms open up.
Quote from: Low-Q on June 05, 2013, 05:20:57 PMyou cannot trick nature. Gravitywheels like these will not work.
Vidar
We are all here to "trick the nature"... This is what Overunity dot com is about. The ideas are more important than solutions, because it is hard for some parties to patent some ideas. There may be few good ideas, but thousand particular solutions, developments ect. and that is better for "average" mankind.
For example pic.2 is actually Besslers No. 108 device:
http://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/viewer/image/1345798641226/88/#topDocAnchor (http://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/viewer/image/1345798641226/88/#topDocAnchor)
@ Mr roberval
Did you try something with Roberval Balance? It's very interesting thing.
Quote from: Rafael Ti on June 06, 2013, 01:10:43 AM
@ Mr roberval
Did you try something with Roberval Balance? It's very interesting thing.
My current project involves a Roberval balance, the design is used to transfer a non gravity force, which is passed onto a secondary gravity system,
the forces of both systems remain in equilibrium.
have tried a fair few systems using the balance and believe it's one of besslers most important clues , as it shows many devices in equilibrium.
The hammermen toy is another important clue.
keeping a close eye on the Brazilian beast.
haven't figured out how it works, though keep checking the design to see if they somehow transferred the weight from the vertical beams to a longer horizontal beam to increase leverage when the weight is disconnected from the roberval vertical beam.
tried variations of the idea myself, though no gain as it took the same amount of work to lift the weight back from the longer lever onto the Roberval's vertical beam.
Quote from: roberval on June 06, 2013, 02:11:22 AM
haven't figured out how it works, though keep checking the design to see if they somehow transferred the weight from the vertical beams to a longer horizontal beam to increase leverage when the weight is disconnected from the roberval vertical beam.
tried variations of the idea myself, though no gain as it took the same amount of work to lift the weight back from the longer lever onto the vertical beam.
Our Brazilian friends probably use the idea of Roberval balance in conjunction with classic weight scale. I have also some ideas about how to bring weights back to initial position. One of them is to let the system work like pendulum... in right time you switch system from Roberval to classic and then back.
By now I am in stage of making rotational Roberval using chains and chain wheels. Will see what can I do with it...
All the best Mr roberval
Quote from: Rafael Ti on June 06, 2013, 04:50:40 AM
By now I am in stage of making rotational Roberval using chains and chain wheels. Will see what can I do with it...
All the best Mr roberval
Rafael,
do you mean making a similar system to the roberval balance by using a chain and sprocket system, with the center sprocket being grounded ?
Played around with these as well, even tried a pendulum on the center sprocket.
it's an easier build compared to building a roberval balance.
Yes, exactly! Something like this:
Quote from: Rafael Ti on June 08, 2013, 03:44:56 AM
Yes, exactly! Something like this:
I assume the horizontal lines are the weights that is overbalancing?
If so, you must remember that these weights are rotating in the opposite way relative to the rotation of the moving sprockets. This rotation is required to force the horizontal weights to stay horizontal, pointing to the right. That will require the exact same amount of energy as the energy "gained" by the overbalance. The horizontal weights want to rotate counter clockwise, but the overbalance want to rotate clockwise. Force equals counterforce.
Therfor such wheels cannot work. Fairly simple math will prove this also.
Vidar
@Vidar
The rotary Roberval is only a base for more sophisticated system. Of course the Roberval balance alone is not a gravity wheel. It needs something else to work as such a wheel. This is what Mr roberval - the member of this forum and others are thinking about. Think for example how easy is to move the weights on horizontal beam.. how easy is to switch the system from Roberval to a classic scale and then back again.
"Therefor such wheels cannot work..."
So let's take it as a hobby. Are you happy? ;) People waste their time doing many stupid things...
All the best
Agreed,
my current build does not transfer weight from the roberval to classic scale, it's a little more complicated as the system works in 3 dimensions.
the way i'm using the roberval balance linkage is not as a balance of weights, it's being used to apply force, the 3D geometry in the design allows the mechanism to create the overbalance.
most of the system is symmetrical, to run in the opposite direction e.g. "CW" the wheel would only need to be turned 180 degrees CW which sets up the overbalance system to run the wheel CW.
unfortunately the design can't use the simple chain sprocket system, which is a pain to build.
Mr roberval
Let me post here a bit improved version of Bessler No 108 water wheel...
Thank you.
Quote from: Rafael Ti on June 20, 2013, 07:20:36 AM
Mr roberval
Let me post here a bit improved version of Bessler No 108 water wheel...
Thank you.
Since you already are focusing on buoyant wheels, maybe you also could look into a similar wheel in air where there is practically no pressure difference between bottom and top. Say you fill the pockets with Helium instead, and let the wheel be placed in air... just for couriosity. But ofcourse the Helium will cause pressure difference inside the pockets...
Edit. image added:
Would it be better for you if you some how counterweight the metal plates so there will be symmetry in the weight balance due to the different locations where the metal plates are on each side?
Because I will guess that the metal plates will displace as much air as the weight allows, and if the metal plates are more under the hub than balanced in the same height as the hub, the buoyancy effect will be cancelled out. If you use a counter weight that is displacing as much water as the weight of the plate, this difference might be eliminated ( ??? ).
I mean; The center of metal plate mass is under the hub, while the center of buoyancy is as much above the hub. With the extra counter "weights" this might balance the weight so the buoyant effect actually turns the wheel around...(I doubt, but it would be nice to analyze it)
Vidar
Did this thread die? Or did you guys go into the think box?
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on June 21, 2013, 08:33:53 AM
Would it be better for you if you some how counterweight the metal plates so there will be symmetry in the weight balance due to the different locations where the metal plates are on each side?
We were taught that these kind of "overbalanced wheels" with folded arms don't work and are always in balance... so if you remove the wheel from the water it should stay in perfect balance. (the same if you pump the air of the system letting it stay immersed) When you put it back to the water it should start to rotate due to presence of air in the system.
What is strange is that the modern science DO NOT apparently APPLY the law of conservation energy to the force/energy of gravity.
I think this is just excuse for their lack of abilities in field of gravity machines or... perhaps something way different.
Quote from: Rafael Ti on June 25, 2013, 06:05:34 AM
We were taught that these kind of "overbalanced wheels" with folded arms don't work and are always in balance... so if you remove the wheel from the water it should stay in perfect balance. (the same if you pump the air of the system letting it stay immersed) When you put it back to the water it should start to rotate due to presence of air in the system.
What is strange is that the modern science DO NOT apparently APPLY the law of conservation energy to the force/energy of gravity.
I think this is just excuse for their lack of abilities in field of gravity machines or... perhaps something way different.
Another hypothesis is that most free energy dreamers does not know how to analyze such wheels without actually building them. I have found myself almost sick and dizzy several times because I have thought that I finally have designed a working gravity/buoyancy machine. When I sit down, and calm down, analyze the forces, pressures, torques, etc. involved in the system, I allways get the same result - zero output.
However, I have learned to analyze things closer before I hope too much, or claim that something works before I have actually built it.
In this particular case, with the buoyant counterweight, I must analyze before I can calim any proof - wether it works or not. No hopes yet.
Vidar
An interesting concept from China I think...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2imzzWOUZQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2imzzWOUZQ)
http://www.gaia-energy.org/es-ist-soweit-mach-dich-energieautark/
In the video we show the reduced height in the visual model to illustrate the working principle. The mechanically assisted natural buoyancy of air-filled containers is the core of this technology. The movement is converted by a generator into electrical energy. The technology is low-maintenance and durable due to its construction. She does not need any chemical substances or fossil fuels.
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monthly operating costs about 15.00 Euros (maximum once a year are mechanical components to check, replaced as necessary.)
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Base of the plant: 0,5 m x 0,5 m
Height about 5 m
construction:
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Provided by customer:
Installation, assembly and commissioning
Depending on the application and installation method occasionally even individual investments for mounts, inverters, charge controllers and batteries may be needed.
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Step 1: way stating name, first name, postcode and place of residence, a deposit of at least € 2400,00 gross until not later than 31.07.2014.
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Step 2: Fill out online or via the application for membership from GAIA PDF and will before the workshops of the GAIA Community.
This step is from a legal and insurance-related point of view, a prerequisite for participation in GAIA workshops.
Other conditions:
Are we achieving the manufacturer-approved number of installations before 31.07.2014, we are required to close the registration period earlier. If your down payment at this time are still on the way to us, we try our best, or transfer you your deposit back at no cost.
Since the rights and patent owner intends subsequently to grant licenses for the private sector, we must announce the number of participants until 31.07.2014. This allowed us to build the plants even independently of subsequent licenses and price expectations of licensees. We get this opportunity because of the good contacts to the patent owner and our staff during the initial phase of this technology in the small plant sector.
Since not all plants can be built at the same time, the enrollment is made after receipt of the deposit.
Built by GAIA demonstration unit, after completion in Austria exclusively by those members participants who signed up to 31.07.2014 and paid the deposit, to the public.
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After the completion and commissioning of the demonstration plant, the workshop dates will be online here posted on the website and commissioned the production of the items. Until then, all components are precisely calculated and the exact Invesitionsbetrag is fixed. The amount of the final payment is then sent to you and to fully fund the procurement of materials at short notice due to start construction.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzrVF0EzH3I&index=8&list=UUOe_8Y0tkbedNBsLuuzFTBA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzrVF0EzH3I&index=8&list=UUOe_8Y0tkbedNBsLuuzFTBA)
P.S.
Congrats on your build guys from gaia-energy!
I always said that gravity chains are much more efficient than gravity wheels :)
This is based on the following video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxFXsoqbfrk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxFXsoqbfrk)
and was discussed somewhere in overunity.com but I lost track
of where that was.
Given a 3 lb weight that barely floats. The volume of the object is enough
that it can be pushed down and submerged by 1 ft lb. which means the object
displaces less than 3 lb of water and floats.
Given that the 3 lb weight is submerged into the bottom of a sealed 10 ft tube
of water it will rise to the top.
Then when removed from the water with maybe 3 ft lbs of work
it will have 30 ft lbs of potential work.
We then subtract the work in of 1 ft lb plus 3 ft lbs from 30 ft lbs we have
26 usable ft. lbs of work....
This will work because in water the 3lb weight does not have its full weight
because of buoyancy whereas in air out of water it has the full 3lbs of weight.
This would not work if the float had little weight like foam because
there would be few ft. lbs of potential energy when out of the water
and it would take more ft lbs of work to submerge it than it weighs due to the
large volume and low weight.
Of coarse I have not considered the valve changing work required.
I tested the idea with a plastic slide film container and several nuts from
a bolt. With 2 nuts it floats and with 3 it sinks. So in a sealed tube it would rise
many feet giving many "foot nuts" of work.
Do you see any flaws in this idea? Do you have any suggestions?
Gentlemen "start your serious discussion engines" roar roar.....
I hope this creates a new topic. The help did not led me to the new topic tab.
Well it did not create a new topic. If you know how to do that please
enlighten me.
Norman
Hmmm, well I hope this isn't too much off topic but I had an idea a few years back. The idea is this. You place a clear plastic half sphere or a dome in a tank of water. There is a small hole at the very top of this dome in which water flows in a stream to the water level at the bottom of the dome. Mostly air is contained inside of the dome.
The first reaction might be well the water level will begin rising and pushing air bubbles out of the dome and it will fill up with water and then that's the end of that.
What if the stream of water was sufficient enough to penetrate below the water level and cause lots of tiny little bubbles to be formed. The stream of water would then mix and become part of the water under the dome while the tiny little bubbles would pop and replenish the air inside of the dome?
A fine balance can be found in which the water level would never rise to push the air out and the extra air in the bubbles would keep continuously replenish the air inside of the dome to allow the continual flow of water into it. :o ;)
Quote from: teslonian on January 31, 2016, 09:30:56 PM
Hmmm, well I hope this isn't too much off topic but I had an idea a few years back. The idea is this. You place a clear plastic half sphere or a dome in a tank of water. There is a small hole at the very top of this dome in which water flows in a stream to the water level at the bottom of the dome. Mostly air is contained inside of the dome.
The first reaction might be well the water level will begin rising and pushing air bubbles out of the dome and it will fill up with water and then that's the end of that.
What if the stream of water was sufficient enough to penetrate below the water level and cause lots of tiny little bubbles to be formed. The stream of water would then mix and become part of the water under the dome while the tiny little bubbles would pop and replenish the air inside of the dome?
A fine balance can be found in which the water level would never rise to push the air out and the extra air in the bubbles would keep continuously replenish the air inside of the dome to allow the continual flow of water into it. :o ;)
http://overunity.com/15375/an-interesting-experiment-with-water-and-air/msg438925/#msg438925 (http://overunity.com/15375/an-interesting-experiment-with-water-and-air/msg438925/#msg438925)