http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBYLXnZYnY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZBYLXnZYnY)
Has Risen to the Number one spot at Sterlings site!
just one of many links
http://pesn.com/2013/01/23/9602267_Keppe-Motor_in_open-source_production/ (http://pesn.com/2013/01/23/9602267_Keppe-Motor_in_open-source_production/)
Thx Chet
PS
The link to the Exotic Product 10 watt 250 RPM Ceiling fan
http://pesn.com/2013/09/06/9602368_4x-efficient_Keppe-Motor_ceiling-fan_featured_at_China-Sourcing-Fair/ (http://www.overunity.com//api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F13777%2Ftinmans-rotary-transformer%2Fnew%2F%23new&v=1&libId=6643e7a0-39a3-4691-b8ee-086595e4bed3&out=http%3A%2F%2Fpesn.com%2F2013%2F09%2F06%2F9602368_4x-efficient_Keppe-Motor_ceiling-fan_featured_at_China-Sourcing-Fair%2F&title=Tinman's%20Rotary%20Transformer%23new%23new&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fpesn.com%2F2013%2F09%2F06%2F9602368_4x-efficient_Keppe-Motor_ceiling-fan_featured_at_China-Sourcing-Fair%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13788481672038)
Can someone describe how it works without using wonk talk like "disinverted metaphysics"?
TinMan says its a pulse motor,I suppose we will need a bit more info on that ceiling fan he shows running on two watts[??} at the 10 minute mark [approx] Keppe claims it takes 100 watts from the Mains to do the same work with a conventional ceiling Fan?
Goes on to say he can run 10 ceiling fans off one 20 watt solar panel for as long as the sunshines !
That will get My attention!!
The Fan specs [BLADE SPEC AND RPM}will be sought for a load test and I am quite certain some hard data will be forth coming.........
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Paul-R on September 10, 2013, 10:40:04 AM
Can someone describe how it works without using wonk talk like "disinverted metaphysics"?
Simple terms
You put power in,and fan turns=electric motor.
A little more detail.
Haveing now seen the motor configuration (on pesn),it is a cross between a newman and bendini motor-nothing more.They then return the inductive kickback into the P/in-something we have been doing on my forum for year's.
The title for this thread is not quite right,as this in no way is an exotic product.
What it is,is an over rated pulse motor,designed to decieve the public as to its efficiency.
The wheels have begun to turn,and it will become clear soon enough ,as to what they realy have.
Quote from: tinman on September 10, 2013, 10:57:10 AM
The wheels have begun to turn,and it will become clear soon enough ,as to what they realy have.
Thanks for the explanation. If their patent overlaps the Bedini, JB will be on their case soon enough.
How is it that these people cannot put the unit on a bench and run it into a prony brake, tell us what the power in is and what the power out is?
The Keppe Challenge is on Tinman VS Keppe lol
http://revolution-green.com/2013/09/10/keppe-fan-challenge/ (http://revolution-green.com/2013/09/10/keppe-fan-challenge/)
The Keppe fan is joke
Mark
Mark
Good of you to pick up that challenge,Have you gotten all the Tech Data on the blades
and MFG info on their fan?
Should not be to hard to get from Sterling ,I believe he does admit to a "piece" of the action here?
Thanks again
Chet
Well, all I can say at this point is that Keppe has been around a long time with his pulse motors. The demo in the video is about as crude as you can get, and is even using the reed switch which will not survive long.
I can confirm that the only comparable fan we have in the house, a "box fan", draws about 100 W when it is in the high-speed mode. We have a few of the classic Hunter high-quality ceiling fans about the place, let me crawl up into the attic and get a current draw measurement on one of them. I'll report back later on.
The power (watts) dissipation of a fan blade goes as some power (exponent) of the RPM, like the cube or fourth power or something like that, IIRC, so you have to be very careful about your RPM measurements because a small change in RPM can mean a big change in power dissipation for the same fan blade.
Yes it is fairly Easy to beat the efficiency of a purchased regular fan, my own pulse motor does it no problem, and mine is almost completely hand made.
Tinsel is right too with fan blades it takes a lot more energy to push a blade from say 1500 rpm to 1600 rpm than it does to push it from 1400 rpm to 1500 rpm.
The same blade should be used and the fan I compare against has a smaller blade and pushes less air at the same rpm than the one I cut down for my motor, due to the design of my motor it can only compare small blades. At some loads it can be extremely efficient and run in pulse mode with flyback returned to the lagging phase of the resonant charging coil to loop the released inductive energy or to recharge another battery.
I only got so far to build a first of it's kind prototype, then got quite ill, when I get time I will be building a much more exact and practical build of the same two phases from one design. The idea is to run it in the ideal rpm range for good efficiency but use more coils for the next build and designed for a certain frequency range that I want. The next one I want to run from rectified 240v from the wall if possible.
I ended up with a large cap bank dumped by sensed voltage to a picaxe chip through a mosfet to a battery which can give multi amp pulsations which is nothing new.
Even though I am returning the flyback to the input without a charge battery, it goes back to a capacitor not the battery and is fed to the lagging coil it is designed to still produce a higher than supply discharge potential, the flyback is not tied to the supply rail.
Wave form with the return in use. Blue is the mosfet drain yellow is the capacitor
the charging coil charges and the mosfet switches the energy from through the coil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrlL099cz2Q
Demo with three loads at efficent speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BanKGAVa9SQ
The Keppe pulse motors do not impress me all that much either.
Cheers
..
Here is the link to ""The worlds first Exotic product to market""
http://pesn.com/2013/09/06/9602368_4x-efficient_Keppe-Motor_ceiling-fan_featured_at_China-Sourcing-Fair/ (http://pesn.com/2013/09/06/9602368_4x-efficient_Keppe-Motor_ceiling-fan_featured_at_China-Sourcing-Fair/)
thx
Chet
Any efficiency gains are a good thing, so I wish them all the best on the ceiling fan. However I do not believe there comparisons to other manufacturers. Would be good to get one and put it side by side with the right measuring protocals.
Kind Regards
Interesting article Chet.A quote from that article
Quote: also due to its exclusive and aerodynamic fan blades.
Wonder how a standard celling fan would go with there exclusive blade.
Lets compare apple's to oranges,and say our apple taste better than the orange.
Wonder how this chick would have went,with a ceiling fan doing 200 RPM plus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u8trTxyf8A
This whole Keppe thing brings out my very cynical side.
Let's start off with brilliant Mark E's comments from the same PESN article:
>>>>>>>>>>>.
If the motor powering this fan is similar in design to the motor that powers their desktop fan, then there is no remarkable technology. Those who remember the articles on the desktop fan may recall Keppe's claims that the fan design resulted from their new "disinverted physics", and operated on principles of resonance. Analysis of that design established that it is just a DC pulse motor that uses an optical commutator. There is no evidence of a new physics: inverted, disinverted, or otherwise. The fan motor and drive are not particularly efficient. The drive uses an optical interrupter switch to control when the motor winding is energized. The motor winding is energized in only one direction attracting the one pole of the rotor magnet and opposing the other. The result is that the motor only does work during less than half of a rotation and most of each rotation inertial carries the fan blades around. However because of a poor design, the coil current never goes to zero and for half of each rotation the coil actually produces counter torque. The circuit block responsible for this is labeled "Dissipative Flux Reset" in the block diagram that follows. That particular circuit form goes back to at a circa 1980 application note from International Rectifier. Other inefficiency results from the use of a power resistor as a way of dropping power to the motor coil to lower the speed. That method would not work if the motor operated on a principle of resonance as claimed by Keppe. The dropping resistor works because for a given line input voltage: the motor torque versus speed is a monotonically declining curve. The motor operates at the speed where that curve intersects the increasing torque versus speed function of the fan blades churning through air. Keppe represented that the desk fan was the result of a decade of research. the last state of the design as I saw it had multiple very serious safety flaws. So, what we have seen from Keppe before is a very mediocre design wrapped in creative, but meaningless terminology. Without specific evidence of actual measured performance I do not expect the ceiling fan to have deviated significantly from the desk fan design that Keppe said took them 10 years to develop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sterling, Keppe are not able to demonstrate high torque or quick start-up compared to other DC motors. Nor did they even try during that demonstration. What they did was basically a straw man comparison. They picked as their straw man a fan powered by a very cheap single phase AC induction motor. If there is a scourge in motors it is the single phase induction motor. They are found everywhere because they are incredibly cheap to build. They have been phased out of larger motor powered appliances like refrigerators and washing machines by energy efficiency regulations. You can still find them sucking down juice in things like cheap furnace blower motors.
I know you like these guys and the way that they run their community. Whatever they are doing with their community does not change the science of their very mediocre, and the last time I saw it, very unsafe motor design.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sterling without any statement of measured or even claimed values "the most efficient ones available" doesn't mean anything. I have surveyed some fan efficiencies and found various units from as low as 12 cfm/W to as high as the Aeratron that Dangus noted at 696 cfm/W. As a point of reference: Hunter which is a very big ceiling fan manufacturer only claims up to 176 cfm/W, while others like Emerson Electric basically do double that. Home Depot advertises Gossamer fans as very high efficiency, but they top out about 200 cfm/W. And as noted, Dangus found the Aeratrons that are 4X the Hunter, 3.5X Home Depot, and 2X the Emerson Electric product because they use really good airfoils.
In a fan the efficiency is as much a function of the airfoil design and the number of airfoils as it is the motor. If someone wants to know about the motor performance they need to see torque and power curves for the motor. If someone wants to compare fans as black boxes, then they need to see airflow volume and power under some stated conditions of temperature, humidity, and static pressure drop. Keppe does not provide these measures.
A quote from PES
PES has a business relationship with the Keppe Motor group, and stands to benefit from their success.
Well,i guess that this mean's Sterling will not answer my challenge.
QuoteThey will be able to manufacture 500,000 fans per month, starting with 100,000 per month. They plan to ship the first containers in November, so they will arrive on December 15 in Brazil.
I wish them luck but the above statement could just be meaningless marketingese. Did they really line up huge customers like retail chains (Walmart?) to sell these fans to?
QuoteShe is pleased about this milestone, and has long envisioned the Keppe motor showing the world that there is a very significant way to improve technology by being willing to fundamentally redesign things in a way that is in harmony with nature, which is what gave rise to the Keppe motor.
There is a web site called cultwatch.com and all that I can say is don't get sucked into the Keppe cult!
QuoteSTOP has been changing lives through their Trilogical Analysis for nearly five decades. I have seen the results of their work by visiting their group in Brazil twice now, coming away deeply impressed each time. Now they are at the beginning stages of changing technology through their work of turning what is up-side-down, right side up.
They are convinced that the principles of Trilogy can be applied to all things to produce better outcomes. While I was there last time, I saw evidence of how they turned a grade school around. And they continue to turn an entire town around in Cambuquira, where they are manufacturing the smaller Keppe motor fans and where they have a hotel that they purchased and rejuvenated.
Cult alert! Run for the hills!
QuoteBut at the same time, it is likely that the reason it is so "efficient" is because it is actually harvesting energy from the wheelwork of nature (one of the co-inventors, Cesar Soos compares it to a heartbeat), to give it a boost, which looks like efficiency, but may actually be generator-like in nature.
Sterling's Wheelwork cult meets the Keppe cult!
QuoteSo while the ceiling fan is pulling 10 Watts from the wall, it may be pulling some from the wheelwork of nature in order to achieve the work and performance that it does.
This is the "Cult of Sterling" forcing his BS down the Keppe group's throat. It's pathetic.... Sterling sees these people and practically tries to force claims of over unity onto the fan. Meanwhile the Keppe people just want to "play" Sterling and to their surprise Sterling wants so much to be played that he ends up playing the Keppe people.
QuoteShe also said that fairly soon they are going to be looking a combining the Keppe motor technology with other conventional and exotic free energy technologies, such as hydro and LENR. The Keppe researchers are also going to be looking at the possibility that magnet motors might play a role in correcting radioactivity pollution. The scientific model of Dr. Keppe, which gave rise to the Keppe motor, predicts that this will be the case. "Magnetic fields have the tendency to correct the energetic pollution of the environment," Dr. Claudia said.
Pure unadulterated BS. Dr. Claudia and other Keppe drones figured Sterling out after a short while and then just fed him the BS that he wanted to hear. However, like I said, it's possible to argue that Sterling is intense enough that the "positive feedback" from Sterling was so strong such that in a way, Sterling ended up playing them. The woman is talking pure crap and she knows it's pure crap and she knows that Sterling wants to hear it.
I will repeat advice that I gave on PESN many months ago about the Keppe group. Run for the f*cking hills as fast as you can.
When no outsiders are around at Keppe central, I am willing to bet you that ultimately the bottom line is all that counts for them - create some fake New Age/free energy buzz and try to sell your fan to people at ridiculous prices. This is all an exercise to create a fake New Age "boutique" fan as a guise to make money for the cult.
It really is that bad.
MileHigh
Possibly Sterling will receive a fan for his home and he can run his house from it?
If this stuff didn't repeat so often with him, you might think there was actually something to it. I had hoped he had learned a thing or two from prior incidents. Evidently not.
Bill
@ MH
well said
I get into so much trouble for being too hard on Sterling. What amazes me he still can get about $2000 plus every time he puts the hat out
Mark
If the Fan does the work of an average ceiling fan while only using 10 watts ,that would be something people will buy.
I will call them tommorow and ask how they established this claim .
I see they refer to some test Standards which the fan exceeds [could be a paint standard for all I know].
Perhaps the "Linga" has met some fellows in China that know how to do a good
Test?
Thx
Chet
@Ramset
Hi Chet I received this from Sterling so it answers your question.
Hi Mark,
As far as I know, the Keppe ceiling fan manufacturer doesn't have the cfm/W
data yet. The next steps will be to do the production prototype engineering
and then get the certifications needed.
If i had the spare cash,i'd buy one of the fan kit's.Then we could do some real power calculation's.
The next step would be to convert a standard off the shelf motor to achieve better result's.
This wouldnt take year's to do (as claimed by keppe reserch teams),infact 1 day would be all that is needed.Once we have a kit of the keppe fan,we then have the very fan blade we need to carry out the ! one against the other ! test.
But due to the PMBO donation's,and having to shift house very soon-i have used up all my play money lol.But given a couple of months,i should be able to purchase one-then we can get very accurate measurements.
So for the time being,we will have to rely on the information avalible on the keppe motor video's.
TinMan
Oh I think we can get you one sooner then That..........
Their entire marketing approach and reason for manufacturing is based on "Exotic technology"
capable of doing the seemingly impossibe.
They absolutely most step up to the plate if they are to be taken seriously,as Sterling says the first run of 100,000 pieces is a hugh commitment that adds credibility to Keppe's claim.
It is also a hugh Liability if not properly Vetted..........
thx
Chet
The only thing they really want to sell is the ridiculous "advanced fan manufacturing manual". After many clicks and "agreements" your will find that it only costs $75.--
http://www.keppemotor.com/en/storemanualfan.php (http://www.keppemotor.com/en/storemanualfan.php)
http://www.keppemotor.com/en/keppemotorstore.php (http://www.keppemotor.com/en/keppemotorstore.php)
I ordered 10 of these manuals and will start my own fan business. I am not doing it for the money, just for world peace and enlightenment. I also want to save the 300 metre long sweet water whales which frolic in the Austrian mountain lakes. ;)
Greetings, Conrad
http://www.keppemotor.com/en/3-3.php (http://www.keppemotor.com/en/3-3.php)
an example for measuring.
Sincerely
CdL
Quote from: lancaIV on September 11, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
http://www.keppemotor.com/en/3-3.php (http://www.keppemotor.com/en/3-3.php)
an example for measuring.
Sincerely
CdL
Hi lancaIV, The only flaw I can see in that measurement and test protocol is that the inverter
will not allow any reactive power back to the supply, the battery. The inverter also has overhead losses which are accounted for going by the 10% figure adjustment. However if the fan has a power factor of 0.90 when plugged into the wall some energy is returned to the supply when plugged into the wall, then if used from an inverter the energy is lost rather than returned to the supply. The power factor of the unmodified fan must also be considered which would be a complicated calculation considering time extensions on top of more time extensions kind of thing.
Maybe one of the Engineers could chime in here.
Anyway most of us only care about the over 100% efficiency claims. Does the Keppe motor produce more work than it costs to run it ?
Cheers
Farmhand
Here is one quick analysis from One Of "OUR" Fiends.
Quote
A really bad protocol. Depending on the inverter used and how deeply it was loaded compared to it's rating, the inverter could have been highly inefficient compared to the load, 50% or more. e.g. If the inverter draws 2 amps at idle and we attach a 2 amp load, the 4 plus amps that will be drawn pits 50% inverter loss and 50% delivered to the AC fan motor.
If you absolutely had to have inverters, they should have been applied to both batteries, and one output could have been rectified. But this is an all around bad way to compare things in this day and age of cheap elapsed killowatt meters with power factor correction.
Also comparing a really cheap AC induction motor to a DC motor is not comparing apples to oranges. They need to test against a good DC motor and eliminate the inverter.
So no need for batteries or inverters, an elapsed killowatt meter will separate the men from the boys.
Possibly a rigged race. Real tests for motors provide torque/speed/power family of curves which are standard in the industry.
Graph attached.
End Quote......
What i need is the fan modle they used,so as i can get the right blade they used.Even better would be one of there kit's,but that isnt going to happen any time soon.
So any one that has any info on the standard fan they used in there comparison video,would be of great help.Also there latest test videos would be good to.
http://www.keppemotor.com/pt/informacoes-tecnicas.php (http://www.keppemotor.com/pt/informacoes-tecnicas.php)
They do not give more detailed information !
It will be easier to ask them directly about the wished technical details !
Sincerely
CdL
p.s.I: #23/24: they only calculated with 10% inverter losses for the conventional fan
p.s.II :Farmhand,reading your Energeticforum-keppemotor-input (05-02-2013)
here my "resonant charging circuit" response,also for pulse motors
[size=78%]http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20100114&CC=WO&NR=2010003394A2&KC=A2 (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20100114&CC=WO&NR=2010003394A2&KC=A2)[/size]
lancaIV
Quote
It will be easier to ask them directly about the wished technical details
----------------------
Sir thank you for the info ,and yes I will be calling their "Factory" in the next few days..
Chet
Quote from: lancaIV on September 12, 2013, 11:32:58 AM
http://www.keppemotor.com/pt/informacoes-tecnicas.php (http://www.keppemotor.com/pt/informacoes-tecnicas.php)
They do not give more detailed information !
It will be easier to ask them directly about the wished technical details !
Sincerely
CdL
p.s.I: #23/24: they only calculated with 10% inverter losses for the conventional fan
p.s.II :Farmhand,reading your Energeticforum-keppemotor-input (05-02-2013)
here my "resonant charging circuit" response,also for pulse motors
[size=78%]http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20100114&CC=WO&NR=2010003394A2&KC=A2 (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20100114&CC=WO&NR=2010003394A2&KC=A2)[/size]
My motor doesn't use capacitive windings it uses capacitors and normal coils. No bifilarly wound coils in my setup just regular windings in parallel for less resistance considering the wire I used,
the capacitance secured in a bifilar coil would be nowhere near the 330 uF my charging coils discharge into. My motor is still in development, i just don't have the time to work on it I am too ill and too busy. I have serious health issues. Debilitating health issues. I get sine waves on the capacitors the charging coils dump into and the charging coils help drive the rotor. The capacitance is separate from the coils. I am using two 330 uF caps one for each motor coil and a dual parallel winding charging coil
I would like to see someone create 660 uF capacitance in a bifilarly wound coil.
Anyway the description tells of a coil itself with an inductive reactance of zero. Mine does not, it does has inductive reactance. It needs the reactance and delay to create the second delayed driving phase I've never seen that patent before and I don't believe it describes my concept. My motor makes two offset phases of driving forces on the rotor the power is delivered to the rotor in two separate phases from one input pulse.
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20100114&CC=WO&NR=2010003394A2&KC=A2
QuoteThe invention relates to a capacitive winding which is made of copper wire, has an inductive reactance of zero, is composed of two parallel conductors (1, 2),
And before anyone says, yes the current does stop in both coils when the motor is operated in its optimum "window". however it can be pushed past that by increasing the voltage.
I did make a mistake in the regular version with no charging coil as the inductor between the return cap and the supply cap will not allow the charging then dumping of the return cap, however that is easily rectified by using more inductance in that extra inductor or a switch if not using a charging circuit, if using the charging circuit that inductor is unnecessary. You must remember I am and was working while on heavy medications for my debilitating illness and was pushing the limits of my physical and mental endurance. But I did produce a working prototype even though it is not ideal by a long way it is the concept I wanted to get out there. Someone will probably patent it, Not my fault I shared. Next time I have an idea I might just keep it to myself considering the amount of wasted effort I outlaid to try to convey my intentions. The second driving phase in my setup has similar drive to the actual drive coils. The charging coils are not capacitor coils.
Cheers
@Farmhand: I did not write that anybody has "occupied/plagiated" your idea I showed you only a feedback circuit wich uses your so called "resonant charging"!
The slowakian inventor Pavel Imris works since several decades in this technical area !
This "windings with capacitors=capacitive windings ;) "-concept has been adapted to several conventional motors but the technicians has not been good enough to reach the theoretical-mathematical efficiency point ???
"You must remember .." this point let me remembering about the JackH-story several years before.
I did not know before your last post about your personal health issues !
Sincerely
CdL
@All
I spoke with a representative from KEPPE today,very helpful and informative person.
There will be some back and forth arrangements made for a test of the
Keppe Motor technology.
Will keep you posted.
Thx
Chet
@Chet
I just need one of there fan blades-nothing more,other that there claimed RPM per watt.
Well now we have some numbers to work with.
The Chinese company tested the Keppe motor ceiling fan compared to the most efficient conventional ceiling fans of this kind presently on the market (as far as they are aware), and found that it is up to 4 times more efficient, consuming only 10 Watts at 250 RPM.
So 250RPM/10watts= 25 RPM per watt.
Now keeping in mind that this is with there new-more efficient fan blade design. So no indication as to how it would perform with a standard blade,as is fitted to other ! off the shelf ! fans they are comparing there unit to.
It also seems keppe has found a new energy source Essential Energy
Quote: According to Keppe, the process is actually the opposite, meaning that matter comes from a previous, primary energy called Essential Energy
Quote from: lancaIV on September 13, 2013, 05:03:23 AM
@Farmhand: I did not write that anybody has "occupied/plagiated" your idea I showed you only a feedback circuit wich uses your so called "resonant charging"!
The slowakian inventor Pavel Imris works since several decades in this technical area !
This "windings with capacitors=capacitive windings ;) "-concept has been adapted to several conventional motors but the technicians has not been good enough to reach the theoretical-mathematical efficiency point ???
"You must remember .." this point let me remembering about the JackH-story several years before.
I did not know before your last post about your personal health issues !
Sincerely
CdL
No probs lancaIV, I didn't take it that way, the patent document predates my efforts anyway, the resonant charging circuit itself was not the point of the motor circuit.
The point of the motor circuit is to get the benefit of the
second phase from one pulse input and to recycle the energy from the magnetic field collapse without tying the mosfet drain to the supply rail directly as well but without a battery. The resonant charging circuit allows that to happen, the increased voltage into the cap to discharge through the motor coil is a benefit as well. If the charging coils inductance was cancelled fully then the charging coils would be in phase and basically just in series with the motor coils.
Mine are lagging in phase to the motor coil and so produce a
second driving phase when the charging coil is placed placed at the rotor in the correct position to drive it. Because of the lagging phase of the charging coils the discharge from the motor coils field collapse goes through the charging coils in that phase and is recycled that way.
About the health issues I was just kinda taking the opportunity to explain myself. When I am layed up all I can do is think. But to put thoughts into a device takes effort and time.
If I am to do things I must struggle, is all. It's much more difficult for me to do things and concentrate while on heavy pain killers and still in much pain. I am happy to say I think I
found out what ails me and I am improving rapidly. I hope to contribute a lot more in future.
Oh and it's not my resonant charging circuit it is the brain child of Tesla in the patent "Electrical Igniter for Gas Engines". http://www.google.com/patents/US609250
You can see in the schematic the delay in the phase of the currents in the charging coils. I demonstrated it as well. The amount of phase lag in the charging coil can be altered.
Regardless I am off topic. All I will say further is the circuit has more potential than I was able to show. :)
Cheers
Quote from: tinman on September 13, 2013, 10:36:51 PM
Well now we have some numbers to work with.
The Chinese company tested the Keppe motor ceiling fan compared to the most efficient conventional ceiling fans of this kind presently on the market (as far as they are aware), and found that it is up to 4 times more efficient, consuming only 10 Watts at 250 RPM.
So 250RPM/10watts= 25 RPM per watt.
Now keeping in mind that this is with there new-more efficient fan blade design. So no indication as to how it would perform with a standard blade,as is fitted to other ! off the shelf ! fans they are comparing there unit to.
It also seems keppe has found a new energy source Essential Energy
Quote: According to Keppe, the process is actually the opposite, meaning that matter comes from a previous, primary energy called Essential Energy
A fan should be rated on air moved per Watt. RPM with a special blade it's almost meaningless to measure RPM per Watt. I can take the pitch off a fan blade and make it spin really fast and push less air but that is not an efficiency improvement. Tinman you need an actual one of their blades. I know you already know this, just repeating what you said.
We have always known that all matter comes from primal energy that is not new. Mass is formed by the contraction of the electric poles according to Walter Russell. I think matter is similarly formed from primal energy.
Some think Walter received enlightenment through spending much time on his own.
Does the keppe fan deliver more work output than is done to run it ? That is the question.
Hi FarmHand
My goal is not to show how much air is moved per watt.
My only goal is to show a motor that can do the same(or more) amount of work as the keppe motor,using the same load as they do. NO P/out, just P/in for a fixed load of the same value.
This is to show they have nothing that the average back yarder couldnt build in a day-afer claiming that it took them years to develope the tech.
Once i have show this beyound any doubt,i will contact the company that is producing the fan's,and sell them mine-after i have shared and flooded the net with my finding's.
Im here to put an end to there bullsh-t ,nothing more,as im sick and tired of these peddlers and there no thrills devices scaming the average person. >:(
Why so angry,tinman ? ::)
I know that your wish is the competition between the Keppe-or other-motors and your rotary transformer !
And to show them/us that YOUR WORK IS EQUAL GOOD IF NOT BETTER !
But nobody is here promoting an "end of pipe"-technology !
So there is a great advantage to have a great market to optimize the efficiency of all electric appliances/machines and to save natural ressources ( and nerves ;) )!
Take it easy -do not worry and do not hurry up the progress-
for someones months and weeks are nothing compared with decades of solution research and development trials !
Sincerely
CdL
Hello Farmhand,
the way to optimize the efficiency of all electricity converting machines is to know how
this micro-/nano sphere process works- that is right !
About this we have these pre-thinker like Tesla and Russell/Schauberger and some other more but the theory only does not change the situation -we need the practical tests and based by this knowledge constructing the prototypes and then the working out from plans for the DIY !
I think that the most part of the energy/power saving are "duty cycle" related,this
technology (included the NASA/Nola-controler) at first used by stepper motors and today promoted as variable speed/frequency drives.
The russian Prof.Kanarev showed this in a theoretical(maths) way and then practical manner as motor-generator concept.
http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Research%20Papers-Mechanics%20/%20Electrodynamics/Download/2349 (http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Research%20Papers-Mechanics%20/%20Electrodynamics/Download/2349)
http://pesn.com/2010/10/13/9501712_Kanarev_announces_self-running_motor-generator/motor-generator.htm (http://pesn.com/2010/10/13/9501712_Kanarev_announces_self-running_motor-generator/motor-generator.htm)
Especial attention: ( 7 ) and ( 8 ) :
question: only special or common knowledge ?
From V(oltage) X A(mpere)
to V(oltage) X pulsed A(mpere)
finally
pulsed V(oltage) X pulsed A(mpere)
Here is the "syntax error" between VDC(without Hz) and VAC(fixed Hz) and
now the: pulsed VDC(variable Hz)
FM=frequency modulation and AM= amplitude modulation ergo radioactivity ;D
Probably the magnetic coil invention http://www.seanicviewinc.com/ (http://www.seanicviewinc.com/) can deliver what they are estimating ! (Then as part of a resonant charging circuit 8) )
Sincerely
CdL
Quote from: tinman on September 14, 2013, 04:51:56 AM
Hi FarmHand
My goal is not to show how much air is moved per watt.
My only goal is to show a motor that can do the same(or more) amount of work as the keppe motor,using the same load as they do. NO P/out, just P/in for a fixed load of the same value.
This is to show they have nothing that the average back yarder couldnt build in a day-afer claiming that it took them years to develope the tech.
Once i have show this beyound any doubt,i will contact the company that is producing the fan's,and sell them mine-after i have shared and flooded the net with my finding's.
Im here to put an end to there bullsh-t ,nothing more,as im sick and tired of these peddlers and there no thrills devices scaming the average person. >:(
Yeah Tinman, Sounds good, I was referring to how I assumed they measured the efficiency at 4 x the regular fan, that is still not clear to me. I get what your intentions are.
What I don't get is how they got to determine the keppe fan is 4 x more efficient than the regular fan. The only way it could be fair dinkum in my opinion is if they compare air moved per Watt over the entire RPM range of both fans, or used the same fan blade for both. Here's the thing a regular fan has control to adjust the speed and increase or decrease the input. If only a small amount of air movement is needed the fan can be used on low power. Can the keppe fan be adjusted. My opinion is let them sell it then get sued when or if people find out it's untrue. But I support you.
I guess I'm asking those promoting the keppe fan to give proof of this 4 x efficiency compared to the regular fan. Or at least explain the test and measurement protocol they used to ascertain that figure. Truth is if they did not use the same fan blade for the purchased fan as they did for the keppe modified fan then they surely must have done "air moved measurements". If they did not compare air moved per Watt the determination would not be valid and even somewhat misleading.
As well if they cannot show over 100% efficiency I don't think they have any grounds to claim a new source of energy is being utilized.
They need to provide some evidence of the presence or utilization of any extra energy utilized over and above the input energy.
I don't see any reason to believe it. Unless I am missing something that is.
Cheers
@FarmHand
Spot on-couldnt have put it better myself.
It seems that those who wish to peddle a product,always come up with some new energy source or theory as to where the extra energy is comeing from. My question is-what extra energy???.
And for those that think im angry-too bloody right i am,as it's not about making the world a better place,it's about lineing there pockets by way of BS.
I guess TK may know the feeling some what,after the rose OU circuit saga. But he stuck to his gun's,and things are now how they should be.
So do we just say-oh well,some one is getting rich by way of lies,or do we expose them for what they realy are?.
So my next step is to source an old celling fan(standard blade) and see how many RPM we can get that blade to spin for 10 watts.If we can get 200RPM with a standard blade-then keppe has some questions to answer.
Since the Keppe table fan was nothing more than a optically-commutated pulse motor, I am going to guess that the ceiling fan is more or less the same thing, a pulse motor. There is absolutely nothing here, zero, nada.
Also, when somebody analyzed the higher efficiency claims for the table fan they found that the way they did the analysis was bogus. The analysis may be buried somewhere in the comments of the PESN archive. So, probably the same crap is being done to promote the ceiling fan.
As was previously mentioned, using a big fat "electrical energy destroying" resistor for the low speed was a joke. Ten years to develop that? lol (All that they had to do was narrow the width of the pulse to slow it down, but that was apparently too much of a technical challenge for the Keppe cult design gurus.)
Note in the table fan they just bought an off-the-shelf fan blade and glued wood laminate to it to make it look pretty and "natural." Their talk of some kind of specially designed more efficient fan blades for the ceiling fan is probably pure marketing lies. Almost certainly they are buying off-the-shelf fan blades. In a typical ceiling fan the blades are just "dumb" flat pieces of wood at an angle. I will assume that if you are wiling to pay the price you can find fan blades that are properly curved to cut through the air like a propeller (to move the air, not to create lift). So you are looking at more Keppe marketing BS. They did not design the ceiling fan blades themselves and they do not manufacture the ceiling fan blades. They most likely buy them from China.
The fact that Sterling is having a mental orgasm over this creepy Keppe cult just makes the whole narrative that much more distasteful. It's not the clockwork of Nature making the Keppe fan allegedly more efficient and getting a "magical boost," it's all just a fantasy fulfillment game for Sterling to keep him pumping this nonsense.
Quote from: MileHigh on September 14, 2013, 12:14:01 PM
Since the Keppe table fan was nothing more than a optically-commutated pulse motor, I am going to guess that the ceiling fan is more or less the same thing, a pulse motor. There is absolutely nothing here, zero, nada.
Also, when somebody analyzed the higher efficiency claims for the table fan they found that the way they did the analysis was bogus. The analysis may be buried somewhere in the comments of the PESN archive. So, probably the same crap is being done to promote the ceiling fan.
As was previously mentioned, using a big fat "electrical energy destroying" resistor for the low speed was a joke. Ten years to develop that? lol (All that they had to do was narrow the width of the pulse to slow it down, but that was apparently too much of a technical challenge for the Keppe cult design gurus.)
Note in the table fan they just bought an off-the-shelf fan blade and glued wood laminate to it to make it look pretty and "natural." Their talk of some kind of specially designed more efficient fan blades for the ceiling fan is probably pure marketing lies. Almost certainly they are buying off-the-shelf fan blades. In a typical ceiling fan the blades are just "dumb" flat pieces of wood at an angle. I will assume that if you are wiling to pay the price you can find fan blades that are properly curved to cut through the air like a propeller (to move the air, not to create lift). So you are looking at more Keppe marketing BS. They did not design the ceiling fan blades themselves and they do not manufacture the ceiling fan blades. They most likely buy them from China.
The fact that Sterling is having a mental orgasm over this creepy Keppe cult just makes the whole narrative that much more distasteful. It's not the clockwork of Nature making the Keppe fan allegedly more efficient and getting a "magical boost," it's all just a fantasy fulfillment game for Sterling to keep him pumping this nonsense.
It actualy states on the PSN website,that they also have a financial interest invested in the keppe motor-Mmmm???,.
Comparing efficiency against a fan? WTF.
Now if they said that the motor was 4 times more efficient then the current most efficient motor out there then they would get my attention (other than to rag them) A fans efficiency would be (I am guessing not my field) rated in litres of air moved per watt. revolutions has nought, nil, nada to do with it. Change the blade pitch, shape or length and that will effect the RPM dramatically.
And who is this Chinese manufacturer? Cause we know Chinese manufacturers are absolutely spot on with their advertising claims, They would never overstate the power output or understate the power input, Noooo.
Don't you love it how someone 'discovers' something (like back emf) and thinks they are on to something wonderful. When if they had bothered to pay attention at school they would have learnt it in 10th grade.
Domestic fans are built to a price not to an efficiency level. It would not be hard to beat them. If you can beat them at the same price point then you have something.
@All
The Keppe group is quite open to sending representatives to the proper Venue [University]
for a full evaluation of their claims ,they seem infact most confident .......
It is hoped that some preliminary third party evaluations can be performed to establish the Claims validity and scope prior to arranging the "University" testing .
This way we can maximize the use of a costly University Venue.
presently working on that .
@Chris
"More for less" is always a winner in commerce.
Thx
Chet
Chet:
I know that you have this altruistic character and want to champion groups like this to help them get started. I realize that you disagree with my viewpoint and that's fine.
But this "university thing" needs to be seen in context. University engineering labs are used full-time by graduate and undergraduate students. Sometimes they may arrange for some kind of corporate deal with an aerospace company to do some research and stuff like that.
But if you go knocking on university doors stating that you have a pulse motor fan and you want them to evaluate it you don't stand a chance. This idea that "amazing discoveries" made on the free energy forums will have universities willing to offer valuable space and valuable time to evaluate them is utter nonsense.
You have a student working on their masters degree and you approach him or her and say, "Can you give me 40 hours of your time to evaluate my spinny pulse motor?" It's not going to happen. You think somebody is going to stop what they are doing to do this kind thing? It's a joke.
MileHigh
MH
I Like you I always have, your input is always appreciated.
""It is hoped that some preliminary third party evaluations can be performed to establish the Claims validity and scope prior to arranging the "University" testing .""
If after the above Is performed to ""proper"" standards there is something showing promise.
The Universities will beat the path to Keppe .......not Vice versa.
I suppose that is self evident.
Thx
Chet
Chet:
Okay I get your point. You need to see third-party evaluations showing something interesting first.
I think that you are going to find that you are in a kind of Catch-22 situation there. The Keppe people will not permit their fan to be evaluated by a qualified third party. That would spill the beans right there and show that they have nothing special.
Take your cue from Bob Rohner and his ridiculous plasma pulse motor. I haven't checked his crowd funding page recently but he may have gotten $3K out of the $200K (?) he was asking for.
You ask Bob Rohner about output vs. input power measurements and he will either say that he will be doing them soon or he is not qualified to do them himself. So he has intentionally delaying doing proper measurements on his system for 30 years. He doesn't want to make measurements because they would show that he has nothing and that would stop him cold in his racks. No more going to the trough, no more begging, no more crowd funding.
Expect the same thing for the Keppe cultists.
MileHigh
MH
I have read the Keppe pages associated with their "belief system"
They cling to High personal standards and Moral ground and have instituted all manner of checks and balances in their daily lives and business practices so as to maintain
impeccable character within their ranks
I will be shocked if they would not tolerate an honest third party examination !
Stupified Even.........
By the way, As of this Date they are completely ready and willing.
Thx
Chet
Chet:
I seem to recall a fair amount of pseudoscience talk when they discussed the actual pulse motor for the table fan. Including something about making cats purr and stopping babies from crying if I recall correctly. To me that means that they will be on a collision course if any serious and reputable people analyze their new fan.
Best of luck.
MileHigh
MH
Quote
""serious and reputable people""
Anything less would be a serious waste of everyones time!
thx
Chet
@chet
Milehigh is on the money here. If you think about it what have they said?
"We have a fan that uses less power than other fans."
There is no context. compared to what other fans? what was the power requirement for the other fan, what was the power output of the fan, how was it measured?
"Look we can plug in some LED's and the power doesn't change"
Wow! Well perhaps that's because the fan base has batteries in it. perhaps the wiring is rigged perhaps the LED's are powered from a different source all together. Who cares anyway, LED's don't use much power its pretty negligable and yes it could be driven off the back emf of an inefficient motor. Even one that's more efficient than the cheap mass produced rubbish they say they are comparing it to.
Why even use a fan as the comparison? Why not use the motor to do a simple task like lift a 1 kilogram weight 1 metre in x seconds. Then you can get a real sense of what power its putting out and it is as simple as connecting the motor to a bicycle wheel with a weight and a piece of string. I have done that before to do very quick tests of theories.
Introducing the fan into the equation can be nothing more than misdirection. In fact its so stupid it must be deliberate misdirection.
Currently electric motor efficiency can be around 97% with careful design. So to improve that by 4 fold means overunity. Do you think any reputable organisation is going to take longer than say 5 seconds to dismiss it as being worth looking at, and based on what? a spinning fan.
Lastly I am sure they are great honest people. That doesn't mean they are not clueless. some of the nicest people I have met are particularly clueless. And if you are in it for the money it pays to appear nice and honest.
CC
Quote from: CuriousChris on September 16, 2013, 05:01:11 AM
"We have a fan that uses less power than other fans."
There are no short cuts.
They should power the unit from a battery and measure over a period of time the reduction in its content whilst measuring the power output to a prony brake or alternator.
Any 5th form Physics pupil could tell them this and/or do it for them.
My guess is that they have, and have found that it has a respectable efficiency but no OU.
common Q. ??? : What can we do with a Keppe-motor-fan and other TMs-fans ?
dwilson A. ::) : http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=9318 (http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=9318)
Sincerely
CdL
p.s.: artificial wind
and artificial solar-cell lightning ( granted in Spain) :
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20100113&CC=EP&NR=2144298A2&KC=A2 (http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20100113&CC=EP&NR=2144298A2&KC=A2)
Quote from: lancaIV on September 19, 2013, 05:00:56 AM
common Q. ??? : What can we do with a Keppe-motor-fan and other TMs-fans ?
dwilson A. ::) : http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=9318 (http://www.patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=9318)
LOL too funny :)
An update on keppe.
Here is there description of the differences between the keppe motor,newman,and berdini/cole motors.
Oh dear ::)
http://keppemotorclub.bestforumpro.com/t25-basic-differences-between-newman-and-bedini-cole-motors-and-the-keppe-motor
And here is an up and rising star over on my forum.
4xAAAA fan
Look out keppe-the beginers are on your tail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m7ZuPiMRPg