This is the split off forum,that MH said we should have.
This forum is to discus our thoughts as to what overunity is,without the big head master and his big stick. If your going to make a forum for others to voice there opinion,then thats exactly what should happen. So here you will be able to put forth your thoughts,without the fear of ending up with a strike in my book-as i dont have a book.
So befor we go trying to solve the riddle of achieving overunity,it would help if we actualy knew what it was.Without knowing what it is,is like going for your motor vehicle licence without knowing what a motor vehicle is-preaty stupid !right?!
The general consensus seems to indicate that overunity is a device or mechanism,that puts out more energy than it consumes. But this seems impossible if we look at the laws of physics as we know it.That one law stands in the way-!energy cannot be created.! So for a device to put out more energy than is consumed-it would have to be creating energy.
Free energy devices already exist,but these do not create energy.
Renewable,or as i call it(recycled energy)devices already exist-but these also do not create energy.
But as of yet-no overunity devices exist-so it is said.But this comment is hard to make,when we dont know what overunity is.
So lets try and decide as a group,what overunity is,or even if it can exist.
What is an example of an overunity device that exist today?.
Some say that the planet's dont slow down-when in actual fact,every planet that has a moon,is slowing down. But the moon is speeding up at the same rate-so we get our equal and opposite reaction. Maybe we should call it an exotic energy machine?
The vast majority of people on our planet, FE researchers included, wouldn't recognize OU if it bit them. This is because the more real something becomes in our increasingly unreal world, the more it is distrusted, feared, and ignored.
This planet LOVES the lie.
How does a wind powered vehicle move down wind at 4 times the speed of the tail wind that got it started? Once it moves faster than it's own tail wind, what really makes it go?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcgmpBGSCI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcgmpBGSCI)
Joe Griggs's Hydrosonic Pump has been proven to produce much more energy as heat than it takes in as electricity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&list=PL5733824E8EC41CDA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&list=PL5733824E8EC41CDA)
And notice yet again, the game of "terminology twister" perpetrated around this device:
http://www.exposingthetruth.co/over-unity-led-light-a-reality/ (http://www.exposingthetruth.co/over-unity-led-light-a-reality/)
How many "experts" have said, "I'll believe it when the device cools down, rather than heats up". This device does just that, yet we are to believe that it simply absorbs heat from it's environment at such a rate that it cools down. LOL. Since when is an LED an efficient absorber of ambient heat? Look at the design. If it is being driven by ambient heat, where is the simple test of operating it in a deep freeze for confirmation?
Here's another interesting experiment....(fwiw).....the mere reality that so much BS chokes the traffic on nearly every walk of life these days, will prevent the truth from being absorbed. Even from all the 'ambient heat' given off from all the crap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU5JvO1opkk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU5JvO1opkk)
True or fake?
There are MANY examples of "overunity", but the perpetual cries of "fake" and "it gets it's energy from known sources" is usually enough to flip the increasingly sensitive "off switch" in the minds of the many minions.
We must face the fact that our world is corrupted and co-opted by an insidious cabal that is so rapacious, that it only knows how to take. Even it's acts of giving are for the goal of taking. Knowing not how to truly give, it views acts of true generosity as contemptible and wasteful, stupidity. This is why the world turns increasingly away from Life, toward the easier to understand, and sub consciously self deserving state, of death.
I guarantee you that should an overbalanced wheel be shown and proven, the vast majority of the "holier than thou" blowhards of science, rather than backpedal, and admit their stupidity, would simply respond with assertions of energy conversion.
"Oh yes, it is simply converting gravity into rotary motion"....blah....blah....
What seems simple to those of us closest to the research, is alien to them. But once, much like a simple, 3 digit combination lock, the combination is shown, what before seemed like way too much work for so little a chance at gain.....
Becomes embarrassingly simple.
Too simple for the arrogant ones to handle. As they haven't the character required to man up and admit to the damage caused by their former condition.
The real reason that we cling to the hope of free energy, despite the avalanche of crap involved, is that we instinctively, at our core, realize the Truth of it. Yet how many will look hard enough to see the Source of it.....
ALL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHxUrG67QC8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHxUrG67QC8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TokXogAzHKU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TokXogAzHKU)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyUtbn0O5Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyUtbn0O5Y)
From what I have witnessed in my short sojourn on this planet, there is plenty of evidence to support one's observations that there is MUCH more to our reality than we currently realize. And free energy plays a relatively small, subsidiary role to the greater realization of Who have gone before us, what they have done, are doing, and will do with their domain....
Us included.
TS
P.S. What's more important? Free energy or time travel? Given that the day in which we live was foretold with great accuracy thousands of years ago....perhaps one's focus should not be on "free energy" at this critical juncture. But instead, one's efforts should best be exerted in aligning one's self with those they see as best capable of winning an age old power struggle.....whose future culmination is now arriving, according to schedule. Free energy is just one of the many rewards awaiting the one who chooses wisely, Whom it is that he will serve.
Yes, greed and interest rule this world. Free energy is simple and simply ordinary people are finding it, yet they have to keep it in silence because.... most are ready to steal the concept for profit...
like here [size=78%]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZ6dBpjz44 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZ6dBpjz44)[/size]
I didn't wanted to offend inventors, they are really great people thinking out of the box, I simply poited that even uneducated man can invent somethign extraordinary when is exatraordinary patient!
Quote from: TechStuf on September 23, 2013, 02:21:55 PM
The vast majority of people on our planet, FE researchers included, wouldn't recognize OU if it bit them. This is because the more real something becomes in our increasingly unreal world, the more it is distrusted, feared, and ignored.
This planet LOVES the lie.
How does a wind powered vehicle move down wind at 4 times the speed of the tail wind that got it started? Once it moves faster than it's own tail wind, what really makes it go?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcgmpBGSCI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcgmpBGSCI)
No overunity 'lie' here. Just some engineering. Coupling the rotating propeller to the wheels via a gear train enables this to work. Compare this with a fixed sail on a land yacht. This cannot sail continuously directly down wind faster than the wind. It can only do so at an angle to the wind determined by the over all lift to drag ratio.
I will start by repeating my basic point.
You have renewable energy, like hyrdo dams and solar cells, the root source for almost all renewable energy is the Sun. Then you have geothermal energy, and energy extracted from the rotating Earth like tidal energy and so on. Then the "big story" on the Universe is the idea that all of the suns will eventually burn out like the hot coals in a smoldering fireplace. So way out in the future the Universe will be cold and dark and filled with dead remnants of the formerly burning suns. Certainly renewable energy is on an exponential increase so I think that bodes well for the future.
And then you have alleged free energy. More measured power out than in or energy just seemingly magically appearing from nothingness. That's Sterling's "energy from the environment" that nobody can define or measure or describe.
This second one is the one that interests me. You look at the parade of people and their stories that flow through Sterling's PESN web site. Most of them are not credible, and some of them are a complete joke. Certainly, a certain percentage of them are pure criminals just throwing their story out there because they know that there are deluded people that will get excited and part with their cash. I like to debate and challenge the high-profile ones. Sometimes they are so weak technically that you can make mincemeat out of them. Sometimes if you have a decent technical background it's shocking what you see and how corrupt it is. For example, John Rohner was the "designer" of the spark plug controller for his version of the "PAPP engine" and always boasted about his technical knowledge and background. If that's true, how come on a Facebook debate it became clear that the man did not even understand how a spark plug circuit works? It just makes no sense and the only logical and reasonable explanation is that he is a really lousy con artist. Hence the FBI raid and the ongoing fake boasting.
I have never seen anything that is credible as a true free energy device up to now. Most clips that try to be "serious" I figure are some deluded people and mostly budding con artists. How hard is it to use some multimeters and a scope and make some serious measurements? It's not that hard really, but you just never see it done. It's almost insane after a while.
So right now it's a bit of fun to debate but I hope another Steorn comes around and the debate gets involved. I don't know, perhaps the closest high-profile proposition is/was Wayne and HydroEnergy Revolution. He seems like a nice guy, and he is as adept at the art of spin and delay as anybody. But one more time, you are looking at a case where if he really had something then it would be a no-brainer to make a convincing demo with real unambiguous measurements - but he will not do it. The realization that comes to me, perhaps not to others, is that Wayne is just a con artist. I don't know if he literally has a good chunk of a small town duped, and real engineers are working with him, or if he and a dozen are conspiring with him or what. What I do know is that you simply can't set up a big box filled with floats and valves and bellows in the middle of a parking lot and have it output continuous power from "nowhere" for weeks on end. It's simply impossible and Wayne has never shown even one tiny shred of evidence that he has something. Also, he speaks the language of a con artist if you open up your mind and are prepared to really be open to all of the possibilities.
So will some device ever tap into some "clockwork" or "vacuum?" Right now it doesn't look like it. However, like I said above the glass is half-full and getting fuller as time goes on. There is so much solar power raining down on us that it will indeed provide for all of our needs. We are just starting on the journey and the world is indeed going to change a fair amount over the next 30 years in terms of energy consumption and how we produce it and store it and so on.
The future is bright!
MileHigh
Just for fun, I will mention a budding entrepreneur:
Daniel Nunez:
http://www.youtube.com/user/DanielNunezMind
I have watched a dozen of his clips, he doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to his coils coils coils. To be harsh, he doesn't even know how a coil works and he has no clue what he is doing when it comes to making measurements. It's so bad it's painful to watch. Honestly hard to tell if he is just deluded and making money or if he is a clever con artist projecting the right image to make it seem like he is sincere and "just learning like everybody as he goes along his journey" so that he can make money.
Many people on the other had, think that he is great and at the "leading edge" and he is part of "the wave." Some of them order, simple as that.
YouTube is a nice way to get free advertizing and he is certainly smart enough to monetize this incredible free sales channel.
MileHigh
Final thoughts to bring it back to the real topic.
When someone wants to demonstrate an alleged free energy device, there is no real reason to get into an involved debate about "what is it" that this person is demonstrating.
It's just power out vs. power in or power from nothingness. Or if you want, energy out vs. energy in or energy from nothingness. That's it. We should all be able to agree on how to analyze someone's proposition to to see if they really have something or not. In other words, we should all be able to agree on how to implement a credible and verifiable test setup. There is no need at all to self-loop, but you are welcome to do that if you want to.
This idea is as clear as black and white in my mind. "Show me the money" - show us that you have something that does what you say it does.
Once you see the claimed input and output of the claimed device, both the inventor and the audience should quickly arrive at a common and mutually agreed upon measurement process that makes sense. It really should be that easy.
Let's look at Wayne again: Take your big box and have it output mechanical power via a rotary shaft. Connect that shaft output to a generator and connect the generator output to a big resistive load bank. Then run that sucker for three months in the middle of public space and have volunteers to monitor it. Just feel the heat from the load bank and have a PC that "strip chart records" the voltage and current for the load bank. The test is plain as day to me, it's obvious. Or something comparable to that. That's the real test for a magic box that outputs free mechanical energy.
MileHigh
What the heck, a quasi clip deconstruction:
Daniel's feature clip and his comments:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3KBu4T6uoE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3KBu4T6uoE)
QuoteHere are some characteristics of real accretion disk energy at work. This is a small scale demonstration; but the things we are viewing have extremely large applications. In the near future, we will have the ability to test these units under vacuum conditions using different plasma forming gases, in order to visualize the electromagnetic forces being generated here. There is still much to learn about these technologies, and we are looking forward to sharing our findings with you. Please support the cause; as we are independently funded researchers interested in helping the advancement of sustainability and planetary wellness. This task is not beyond us, as long as we all contribute and spread the word. Thank you all for your following! Together, we can make clean energy solutions a reality today!
This is all nonsense. His just demonstrating the basic vanilla properties of coils and how they generate a magnetic field.
For example, what about all those clips where they put a magnet over a piece of tinfoil and then put it on top of a "Rodin" coil and you hear music, the setup is acting like an audio loudspeaker? There is a simple basic explanation for that; a current carrying wire in a magnetic field will experience a force on it. This is a basic fact about magnetism. The individual wires in the coil will vibrate to the music and some of that vibration touches the tin foil "whizzer cone." That's it, it's as simple as that.
The full explanation for what is going on in this feature clip, inside-out and upside down, can be found out by just understanding the basics of magnetism. For sure Daniel Nunez does not understand the basics of magnetism, whether he is deluded or a crafty con artist.
If you were determined, this guy's clips (I'm a big fan) will explain everything about what is going on in the Nunez feature clip as of Sept 23, 2013:
http://www.youtube.com/user/lasseviren1/videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/lasseviren1/videos)
MileHigh
P.S.:
QuoteThis is a small scale demonstration; but the things we are viewing have extremely large applications.
No kidding. Right now as we speak the entire electrical grid across the entire world is powered by big coils. Sorry, Daniel, somebody beat you to it! lol What's that guy's name? Niagara Falls? Feel the 60 Hz hum in your chest when you are parked across the Niagara gorge and facing the power station. I was about 13 years old and I still remember the hum. 2,400 megawatts, nothing to sneeze at.
Quote from: webby1 on September 23, 2013, 03:33:11 PM
Tinman,
This is not the first time someone has tried to get a consensus on OU.
My take is more the FE style of thing,, if I can get more out than I have to put in,, let nature do the rest :)
Yes,i know.
But was there ever an answer at the end of the discussion?.
I posted this same question on both my forum,and at OUR. The answer in general at the end was-an OU device would only remain an OU device,until the input power source was known and understood. The device would then no longer be considered OU.
A good example using this definition,would require going back in time. For this we can look at the solar cell. Lets go back 100 years in time for this thought experiment. We have a 200 watt solar pannel,a 200 amp hour 12 volt battery(rechargable),and a 10 watt electric motor-also 12 volt's.
We now have the makings of a perpetual motion machine. We hook our 10 watt motor and 200 watt solar pannel to our 200 amp hour 12 volt battery,and the motor spins forever. As long as the sun comes up every day-the motor keeps on going,24 hours a day,for years on end.
Now,100 years ago,this would have seemd fantastic,and something out of the ordinary. But today,this would be just a !so what! device,because we know the power source,and exactly how it works.
This outcome will be the same for anyone that make's an !OU! machine,but at the rate that technological breakthroughs are being made today,your fantastic OU machine would only be fantastic for maybe a year(if that).Once the source of that extra power is found and understood,you will just have another solar pannel situation.
Most free energy devices seem to work much like a check valve,in that they allow for flow in only one direction. They seem to take random flow direction's,and direct it in one direction-organisation from kaos.
The solar pannel takes all sorts of light from the spectrum,filters out what it can use,and then directs the flow of light through fancy materials to produce electricity.
Hydro electric power stations work the same way. The device(as a whole) takes random streems of water created from rain fall,and converts it all to flow in one direction through the turbine.
Even the humble permanent magnet is made by aligning the random magnetic domains within the material.We then have a device that requires no power input,but can provide a force for 100's of years.
All the above work by creating order from kaos,but as of yet,no one has worked out how to create usful energy from that order which exist with the permanent magnet???. Could it be that we have to take this order of the permanent magnet ,and create kaos in order to get our OU machine?.
Maybe we are just looking at things all wrong-like has been mentioned here already,We seem to be very easly lead astray,right from the word go-in school.Simple thing's like what they teach you about our orbit around the sun-what bollocks is this? Our actual motion through space is nothing like they teach you at school.
Watch in full screen mode,for a ride of reality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4V-ooITrws
@TechStuf
I believe that the cavitational heater has merrit,i seen such events when racing f3 tunnel boats.If you trimed your motor to high,the prop would cavitate,and melt the tips right off the high carbon S/S props.This takes extreem temperatures to do that.The other thing to knote,is that the load is actualy taken of the motor when cavitation occures.
So the load go's right down,and the temperatures go way up.Seems to be totaly opposite to what should happen ,when heating water or other materials.
Same with the Hydrosonic pump. There is a video on youtube showing how the cavitation has been maximized. A slow motion video showing what occurs in the cavities on the rotor.
I doubt that even Griggs's device scratches the surface regarding the efficiencies possible in this area.
Regards,
TS
Quote from: TechStuf on September 24, 2013, 12:23:28 AM
Same with the Hydrosonic pump. There is a video on youtube showing how the cavitation has been maximized. A slow motion video showing what occurs in the cavities on the rotor.
I doubt that even Griggs's device scratches the surface regarding the efficiencies possible in this area.
Regards,
TS
Yes i watch the slo motion video. That was preaty cool seeing the water contained within each cavity,boiling away.
Things like this may lead to what we call OU event's.Maybe the extra energy is contained within the water itself? It is said that a glass of water containes enough energy to power a city for a day.It is 2/3s hydrogen,so what if we could split each hydrogen atom contained within that glass of water?.This may be a different type of hydrogen atom than that used in bomb's-i dont know,im no chemist.
TechStuf
If we could get hold of one of those efficien drum design's,then this would be quite a simple machine to throw together.
Quote from: webby1 on September 24, 2013, 07:27:45 AM
Not that I am aware of.
As you have stated, when it is done it is for only a short time,, then someone identifies the causality and the mystery is solved.
Energy is a tool to describe, measure and compare *anything* and as such it can not be created nor destroyed,, this unique measuring stick we call energy. When something comes along and "appears" to be OU all that means is that "we" do not see all of the inputs to the system and that is what this tool tells us,, it does not tell us it can not be done,, it tells us that we are missing something.
As a tool then, it does not need to be perfect, it only needs to provide a reasonable approximation of events. It does not "predict" any outcome by itself, the user must ask the question with all of the understood parts in place.
I interchange between a 14mm and a 9\16 socket all the time,, a 1\2 and a 13,, not perfect but they do a reasonable job,, I can not ask the great theory of energy what a baseball is going to do just by presenting the baseball to the theory,, the theory can not even tell me that it is a baseball because the theory is a tool to use to find what is hopefully a common answer.
Well Webby,that would have to be one of the best answers i have ever read.It also lines up with the conclusions on the other forums i posted this subject on.
The mass so far seem to agree,that OU is realy an unknow power/energy source at work.
One has to wonder then,who actualy decided that an OU device was a device that produced more power than it consumed?.
Maybe if we get enough people here agreeing with this definition of overunity,along with the many others from the other two forums that came to the same conclusion-we could rewrite the definition of overunity?.
OU is perspective
If I take A Nickel From Tinman [with out him knowing]
And buy an icecream
I get OU .......[till I get caught]
Turns out The least is the most [isn't that Biblical?]
see here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ)
thx
Chet
This is something that I am transferring over from the other thread:
Quoteno !! because of the high tide and the low tide with the influence of the moon and the sun
so the speed rotation of the earth decrease
I intentionally did not mention the tides and the Moon being thrown away from the Earth and leap seconds and all that stuff to try to simplify the discussion. That's sometimes a fine line and you might be on the wrong side.
The basic fact remains that planets in orbit or planets rotating about their axes are not in any way related to over unity or free energy. That seemed to get sidetracked in the discussion. You simply can't point to the planets in orbit and cite that as an example of over unity or free energy. Same thing for the electron orbits around nuclei.
As far as the notion goes that if you found an over unity device then you would be forced to conclude that the process is being driven by a hitherto unknown source of power, it makes sense on face value but I am not a fan of it. Firstly, there are no known over unity devices. Secondly, I think the last unknown form of power was radioactive power and Madam Curie discovered and quantified it in the 1920s. So there is a school of thought that says we believe right now that we understand all of the forms that energy can take. Of course there is always the "you never know" factor, no matter how small the possibility. But it's not worth worrying about right now. The first task is to get empirical evidence that you have an over unity device.
Look at the case of all of these alleged over unity motors. A motor is just coils and contacts and magnets. If you had an over unity motor you should be able put a scope to the coil output and say, "This coil output waveform is clearly showing a voltage x current waveform that shows extra energy because I know ahead of time how much energy it should show and it's showing more than the measurements indicate it should show." This is the kind of reality investigation that this stuff requires but you never see it. You say the motor is outputting over unity mechanical energy? Fine then let's take a serious look at the guts with our scope and pin-point exactly where the extra energy manifests itself. I asked poor Doug Konzen that very question a few times and he went ballistic on me every time.
If it is really and truly there then it has to be dissected and deconstructed right down to the ground. In other words a full tear-down and analysis. So you analyze every movement of a lever or rotation of a rotor, every charging of a coil, every push on a magnet to find out where the over unity is. Mysterious "black boxes" and inventors with unstable personalities are not the way to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
MileHigh
You are still "stuck" in the power-in vs. power-out universe, even if you might not have a grasp of the scientific terminology. So if you have an over unity "black box" you definitely want to open up the box to see what makes it tick. If there was indeed a process, that implies that you could design a machine around the process itself.
Now if you could fire a cannonball horizontally fast enough, the curvature of the Earth would "fall away" from the cannonball such that as the cannonball falls the Earth falls away at the same rate. Hmmmmm... lol
I am sensing a buzz about cavitation but I am not feeling it. You are overcoming the tensile strength of water and you end up with what is essentially a vacuum in the water. So there is a HUGE source of power required to create the cavitation. Submarines worry about the noise it creates and now the modern ones all have only one large propeller. (I once read Tom Clancy!)
Webby1:
Sorry I can't visualize what you are talking about with the magnet and the metal filings.
MileHigh
Okay I think I might understand now. Something like when a demonstrator has a glass bottle filled with iron filiings and then brings the end of a magnet up to the bottle and you see all of the filings stand up and line up on top of each other and make little spike shapes? Or maybe you have seen the exotic ferro-fluid clips on YouTube where this liquid that looks like black oil will do similar things when they energize electromagnets? There are dynamic ferro-fluid sculpture clips on YouTube where you can see all sorts of amazing spike-like patterns created in the strong magnetic fields. It's magnetic goop.
I would like you all to look at this video again,as i noticed something when watching a second time.The video was shot in slow motion,and at a guess,we would think(judging on previous video's)that the rotor is doing at least 2800RPM. So from this,you can see how much the film has been slowed.You will also see when they inject the dye.But check out the bubbling water in each of the cavitation hole's-it looks like the water is boiling at normal speed. So can you imagine how violenly and fast the water would be moving about in those holes at normal camera speed. No wonder that it boils instantly,with that type of violent movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oha0Doj-seI
Here is a better video,showing the device as a whole,befor they switch to slow motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBxpn6odtcA
So it seems that we agree(mostly) that in all OU machine's there has to be an unknown energy source entering the system somewhere.
The setup in the two previous video's,couldnt be much simpler. We have an electric motor,and a drum full of hole's,that is submersed in water.It is claimed that this system is up to 170% efficient-OU?.
So insted of just dismising it as rubbish,can we find anything in the systems opperation,or any of the materials(including the water)that could produce this excess energy,under these condition's?.
Would the high speed collisions of water and air,boil water far more efficiently that fire(or any other method) can?
Maybe we have been going about this the wrong way,in reguards to building these free energy machines.Insted of building a machine,and hope that it pulls in some energy from somewhere-why not first identify what could be an energy source,then build the machine to capture it,or use it.
Hi everyday ;D
Overunity is simply FREE ENERGY
An energy that is free cycled to itself abundantly. 8)
By master otitots ;D
Quote from: tinman on September 25, 2013, 02:21:52 AM
Maybe we have been going about this the wrong way,in reguards to building these free energy machines.Insted of building a machine,and hope that it pulls in some energy from somewhere-why not first identify what could be an energy source,then build the machine to capture it,or use it.
8) 8)
Quote from: MileHigh on September 24, 2013, 06:15:30 PM
I am sensing a buzz about cavitation but I am not feeling it. You are overcoming the tensile strength of water and you end up with what is essentially a vacuum in the water. So there is a HUGE source of power required to create the cavitation. Submarines worry about the noise it creates and now the modern ones all have only one large propeller. (I once read Tom Clancy!)
MH
I dont think that is right in this case.Sure,when we place water under a vacume,the water boil's-as such. But when you remove that vacume and stick your hand in the water,it is still cold.The water in this device is that hot it turns to steam.To achieve an output of steam like seen in the video's,the water would actualy have to be under preasure-not a vacume.
There is nothing in that machine that could put the water under a vacume.Once cavitation starts,there is small explosions taking place where the cavitation bubbles are in contact with the impellor.Also note that once cavitation happens,90% of the load on the prime mover is removed.
Tinman:
I am no expert at fluid dynamics but I can tell you what I think.
For starters, those video clips are not showing slow motion, they are clips of the drum being illuminated by a stroboscope to emulate slow motion.
I think that there are two things going on inside the drum. The first is that you are seeing cavitation bubbles in the machined holes in the spinning inner drum. This is due to the Bernoulli principle. Effectively it means that the water is "boiling" at room temperature because of the intense suction it is experiencing inside the machined holes. In my personal opinion this is just eye candy. It doesn't really do anything and the cavitation is meaningless. The cavitation bubbles are not "explosions," they are just the suction produced overcoming the tensile strength of the water.
The second thing that is going on is that the water in the narrow gap between the inner spinning drum and the fixed outer drum "jacket" is undergoing a shearing force between the two moving surfaces. This shearing force is resisting the rotation of the inner drum and thus resisting the rotation of the shaft. Therefore the motor driving the drum assembly at a certain angular velocity has to output a certain amount of torque to overcome this resistance. Just for the sale of completeness, angular velocity x torque = power, and that power has to go somewhere. The only place for it to go is in the heating up of the water.
The shearing of the water causing friction causing heat is independent from the cavitation. Even though the two processes are taking place right next to each other, they are not related.
So my conclusion is that for this device, the thermal power output from the heated water will be slightly less than the mechanical power supplied by the electrical motor. In other words, nothing special. If the people promoting this system want to prove that it is doing something special, all that they have to do is show the electrical power into the drive motor and compare it to the thermal power output by the heated water. This would be very easy to do.
MileHigh
QuoteIn my personal opinion this is just eye candy. It doesn't really do
anything and the cavitation is meaningless. The cavitation bubbles are not
"explosions," they are just the suction produced overcoming the tensile strength
of the water.
LOL
It appears you haven't even bothered to google the definition of "sonoluminescence" or "cavitation" for that matter. For if you did, you might have noticed that breaking the "tensile strength" of water via the
highly efficient means of employing a highly efficient electric motor, produces prodigious gains! That the effect is "nuclear" without producing negative radiation is being shown in experiments around the world!
First, the humble crustacean version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXK2G2AzMTU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXK2G2AzMTU)
A "slightly" more complex experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ)
And another example of many easily found demonstrations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g7Sf2OaVIk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g7Sf2OaVIk)
QuoteIf the people promoting this system want to prove that it is doing something
special, all that they have to do is show the electrical power into the drive
motor and compare it to the thermal power output by the heated water.
This would be very easy to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&list=PL5733824E8EC41CDA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw&list=PL5733824E8EC41CDA)
Apparently NASA was impressed, they donated advanced bearing systems in exchange for sharing info. They are installing these as "scale free heating" systems for major players around the world.....etc...etc...So it seems clear that Griggs is playing ball and getting rich in bypassing the consumer market and focusing on the corporate dollar.
Nope. Nothing to see here. NASA and major corporations love to overspend for "eye candy". LOL
So, as one can see, cavitation holds much promise, the effect is real. A five minute cursory google search reveals the hilarity of your assertions.
Imagine what hours of study might reveal....
"A mind too open can't keep anything in. A mind too closed, can't let anything in."
TS
TS:
I know what sonoluminance and cavitation are. There is even "Certs breath mint" luminance. Is your assertion that the drum heater is outputting more heat power than mechanical power in? And it's due to the cavitation? If that's it or if you mean something else please explain the process. I know the "old" pistol shrimp clip, thanks for the new one. That's just COE in action. Can you see why?
I only skimmed through the synthetic radioactivity clip because it was too long. The implosive cavitation clip was cool. But again, what's the point? If you look at a bubble cavitation event, do you see something special?
QuoteApparently NASA was impressed, they donated advanced bearing systems in exchange for sharing info. They are installing these as "scale free heating" systems for major players around the world.....etc...
Great for them. Again, this is a mechanical direct to thermal water heater. It may fill certain niches for fast hot water on demand where there is plenty of mechanical energy readily available. But is it special? You seem to think so but I can't see it.
QuoteSo, as one can see, cavitation holds much promise, the effect is real.
I don't want to beat a horse to death, but I would love it if you could elaborate. Let me give you some thoughts about cavitation and ships. They don't like it because it damages their propellers and reduces the efficiency of the propeller. It also produces noise so the Navy hates cavitation. In that clip with the the rotating cylinder water heater, the cavitation inside each machined hole is of no use. In fact, just like for a ship propeller you loose thrust and therefore power, the cavitation inside the machined holes in the rotating drum has similar negative effects. The cavitation is causing water hammering inside each machined hole, and lots of that water hammering power is going into the rotating metal drum and traveling through it like sound waves. That's probably fatiguing the metal and stressing the bearings. Think of it, you look at the drum water heater and you can hear the sound of the continuous cavitation going on inside. That's just wasted power that is being burnt off inside the drum. In this particular case, it eventually becomes heat anyways, but it is still an unwanted "disturbance" to the smooth operation of the drum water heater. In my opinion, it's just for show, like a prop on a movie set.
Just to add a thought. There may also be a legitimate reason for the machined holes. They may help to circulate the water or something. But the cavitation events inside each machined hole don't create energy. Since energy is the focus here, my contention is that cavitation may be interesting and may have certain niche applications, but there is nothing with respect to energy that cavitation brings to the table.
MileHigh
I went back to the Hydro Dynamics web site:
Quote
•The heart of the technology is a specialized rotor
•The rotor has dead-ended cavities
•Spinning creates low pressure at the cavity bottoms
•The low pressure zones collapse releasing shockwaves
•Cavitation is created in the cavities, not on metal surfaces. •The Cavitation is controlled, therefore there is no damage.
The SPR technology represents a new and innovative way to apply energy to liquids.
So they are saying that they want the cavitation events to produce heat. I'll take them at their word, they have to produce heat one way or the other.
In essence, they are stating that the rotor produces more friction, requiring more torque, producing more heat. It sounds perfectly legitimate and I could very well be dead wrong when I called the machined holes "props." It's a trick to get the drum to produce more heat, almost like "adding sandpaper" to the drum. So if you can produce more heat in a smaller drum size that's perfectly legitimate. But they don't claim more heat produced than normal, which is what one would expect for a legit company.
I was erroneously under the impression that Hydro Dynamics Inc. was claiming over unity. I got mixed up between them and that old fire station clip. So it's all legit looking but no over unity.
MileHigh
Hi
in the you tube video they actually are talking about the overunity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjGSXKSLpfY
Telecom:
Thanks I watched that clip. So it turns out that the company Hydro Dynamics Inc. is indeed the same company that did the fire station installation. In the clip that you linked to the visiting scientist says that they didn't do proper scientific measurements, etc, etc. That clip also looks quite old, I am guessing at least eight years old.
I think that I figured the story out now. Note on the current Hydro Dynamics web site they mention nothing, zero, nada about excess heat production and over unity. Possibly somewhere down the line over the last 10 years they did legitimate scientific measurements and finally saw that there was no over unity to their satisfaction. More importantly, they came across legitimate industrial applications for their drum-based mechanical water heater system. Great for them, they are now selling their systems into legitimate industrial applications.
The last thing that the people at Hydro Dynamics want now is a crowd that believes that they have an over unity device hanging on and generating free energy Internet buzz over them. That would hurt their business.
They have evolved into a real company and that's fantastic. Any claims of over unity are now ancient history for them, they are way past that. So the story has a happy ending.
MileHigh
Just to finish off this discussion let's discuss that famous cavitation bubble that produces sonoluminesence. The amazing pistol shrimp and all that jazz. There is this belief out there that it's some kind of a source of energy. Nothing could be further than the truth so let's look at it.
Let's start off with magnets. You have two magnets stuck together on your bench top. You pull them apart and place them six inches away from each other. You may not realize it but you have just put energy into the magnet system. There is literally a certain tangible amount of energy now in that system that wasn't there before.
You think that's crazy? Here is a crazy thought experiment: You spread peanuts still in their shells on your bench. Then you carefully place neo magnets in among the peanuts so that they stay in place and don't move. Then you bang the bench top with your fist a few times and all of a sudden *smash*, all of the neo magnets come crashing together. Some of the peanut shells get busted and liberate the peanuts.
So where did the energy come from to bust the peanut shells open? The energy came from the positions of the neo magnets on your bench top. When the neo magnets are on your desktop and spread out that represents a high energy state. When they all come crashing together, then once the crash is over that represents a low energy state.
Where does the energy come from to create the high energy state, the energy that eventually is used to smash the peanut shells? It comes from your arm when you pull the neos apart again and place them on the table such that they remain separated from each other.
There is no "energy from the neo magnets" that smashes the peanut shells. You put energy into the system when you pulled the neo magnets apart (force x displacement = energy). The energy to smash the peanut shells comes from you, it doesn't come from the magnets at all.
So let's look at the cavitation bubble in the same manner.
The cavitation bubble is formed by a strong suction, or negative pressure, on the water. It takes work (force x displacement) to pull the water apart and actually make the cavitation bubble.
That's just like pulling two magnets apart. So when you are looking at a cavitation bubble for the brief time it is in existence, the bubble itself represents a higher energy state. Just the fact that the bubble exists means that there is now more energy in the system.
You can't forget that an outside energy source did the work to create the cavitation bubble.
Then when the cavitation bubble collapses it's just like when the magnets all smash together and break some of the peanut shells.
So, you know that looking at a cavitation bubble means that there is energy stored in the system.
The cavitation bubble collapses -> the stored energy in the bubble now has just been transformed into kinetic energy of the moving water. -> This is like all of the moving neo magnets at the instant before they crash together.
The moving water "crashes into itself" when the bubble has completely collapsed -> This is like imagining all of the moving neo magnets hit each other at the same time.
What happens to the kinetic energy in the moving water when it crashes into itself? It has to go somewhere.
Certainly some of the energy in the moving water becomes a shockwave that travels through the water. So some of the kinetic energy becomes sound energy that continues flowing through the water.
Some of the energy simply becomes heat. But since this heat is all contained within a microscopic volume at the very center of the former bubble, the temperature has to get very high simply to respect the conservation of energy. The temperature gets so high that some of the heat is radiated away as visible light. Some of the heat heats the water. It's all just the conservation of energy in action.
Kinetic energy of the moving water gets transformed into sound energy (shockwave) and heat energy (various wavelengths of EM energy including visible light, and the heating of the water itself)
The entire process of sonoluminescence when a tiny cavitation bubble collapses in on itself is just an ordinary process where energy transforms from one form to another form to another form. The energy is supplied by an outside source.
So there is no pot of gold associated with sonoluminesence or the pistol shrimp.
Quote
So there is no pot of gold associated with sonoluminesence or the pistol
shrimp.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and take a guess that you didn't choose the user name, "MileHigh" because you live in Denver.
TS
TS:
Nice little implicit play on words.... but you are not responding to the points made.
The name just popped into my head. The first thing I thought of after it popped into my head was Denver. The second thing I thought about was the airplane scene at the end of the movie Emmanuelle. Go figure.
MileHigh
Piezo Nuclear reactions ,that's a brand new word for the planet ,maybe they didn't teach this in your school book MH ?{ why would they?]
and its caused By sound ?
The Soundwaves can cause a cascading chain reaction with tempertures easily reaching millions of degrees!
There is definately something to see here
the future of power on Planet earth [once all the "Mongers" lay down]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ)
Thx
Chet
Hello guys, I have perfected a novel magnetic gate that I call "Ouroboros"(the snake biting its tail). The Ouroboros has the following characteristics: (1) It has a "sticky point" at its exit; (2) Its magnetic forces are uniform from its entrance to its exit; (3) When closed loop, its sticky point vanishes. Now from its mathematical model, it has a power-to-weight ratio of 2horse-power per kilogram. A sample of 9.37kg has a power of 21horse-power, a torque of 11newton-meter, and a speed of 13920 rev/min...
From 1995 till this year, I worked on a particular design, the prototype of which I built 3 months ago; although I succeeded in producing asymetrical magnetic field around the rotor, the design didnt work. Why? The torque was far lesser than the moment of inertia of the rotor. Early this year, I came across the U.S patent 5455474; and when I applied the method I used to produce asymetrical magnetic field in the other design, it worked well. The advantage of the new design is that I could easily adjust the torque arm, something I couldnt do in the first design. I want to approach NEST to see if they could help me...
Webby1:
I really don't know what you mean by "pushes the conditions over the top." You seem to be implying that the rotating drum plus cavitation system will "take on a life of its own" after a certain input power threshold and start to produce over unity in the form of more thermal heat power out than mechanical power in. That's not going to happen. It's a huge mistake to just assume that "cavitation" is some mechanism to get over unity because it's not.
In fact there is a sobering point that I forgot to mention. If the motor driving the drum is 95% efficient well there is a 5% loss right there from the get-go. So a "dumb" water heater with a controller and a big resistive heating element is more efficient on paper and it's essentially zero maintenance.
Chet:
QuoteThe Soundwaves can cause a cascading chain reaction with tempertures easily reaching millions of degrees!
I am assuming that you are referring to the pistol shrimp and the sonoluminesence. I will repeat that it's nothing more than the conservation of energy in action. You take a certain amount of heat energy and you put it into a volume of water. As the volume size decreases then the temperature must increase to hold the same amount of energy. If the volume is really minuscule then the temperature can indeed reach millions of degrees. It really doesn't mean anything in the searching for over unity scheme of things.
As far as the clip goes, I only glanced at it. Perhaps it's somewhat akin to reading about a new "breakthrough" in solar cell efficiency every two weeks. That's 26 "breakthroughs" a year, how many actually get into production? If you put radioactive materials in a fluid with cavitation going on, perhaps the microscopic water hammer effects will induce nuclear reactions, I don't know. Will there ever be a commercial "fission reactor with a cavitation catalyst assist" in our future? I don't know the answer to that one. Cavitation in this case is just part of the process, the energy is still coming from the nuclear materials.
I hope that you try to digest my little treatise about the cavitation bubbles and the sonoluminesence. There is nothing magical about the pistol shrimp. Certainly it's remarkable how it developed a mechanism to ccock it's muscles/ligaments/claw to create the effect it creates, but it's COE and all fully understandable. Look at kangaroos, when they are running full speed their long ligaments act like elastic bands that store and release energy. That's also remarkable. Then there is that flagellar motor that has people going a bit crazy and talking about the big guy that may be in the sky, that's also remarkable.
MileHigh
The closed loop version of the ouroboros has a power-to-weight ratio of 2Hp/kg. It behaves like a piece matter falling in a bottomless pit, since the rotor accelerates endlessly in a circle. We all know that a circle has no begining or ending. Like the SMOT, the oroboros has its sticky point at its exit; unlike the SMOT, its magnetic field is uniform from its entrance to its exit; and unlike the SMOT, when closed loop, its sticky point doesnt come into play, for it siezes to exist!
MH
You really need to pay attention here,This is not Flatulent Bubbles in the tub.......
Completely heretofore unknown Process which was at first spotted in your "shrimp" Vid [around 1989]
and is evolving towards a complete new understanding which apparently knows few limits!
Take a look, you'll be seeing much more of this!
Synthetic Radioactivity [Piezo Nuclear reaction]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ)
Thx
Chet
QuoteMH
You really need to pay attention here,This is not Flatulent Bubbles in the
tub.......
LOL
Don't bother, Ramset, this isn't bubbles in bong water either....but MileHigh still has a while before he can come back down to Terra Firma, curb the munchies, and initiate his due diligence on the matter.
TS
Guy's
We all have our own opinions,and we are all entitled to post them here-thats why were here.But we should all respect others opinions,and not just deem them wrong because we dissagree with them.I think we should also be able to post those opinions ,without the fear of being insulted.Unless we can prove otherwise,then there opinion is just as good as anyone elses.
What we would like to see,is if there is any way that extra energy can come from cavitation in the rotary heater. Once this is proven,then maybe we can start to correct those that shared what they think is right.But until then,we should take all conciderations in account,and be respectful to one- another in the process.
TS:
You should listen to Tinman's words of wisdom. I already told you in a previous posting that my alias just popped into my head, it's not a drug reference at all. Don't even think about making follow-up comments along that line.
For the clip that Ramset linked to, it's 18 minutes long, perhaps I will get around to it later. Iron is a very stable atom so I am not sure what they are going on about, and I am not smelling anything real there but I will have to watch the clip.
For anybody that reads this thread, there is a fair amount of "shouting" from you that "cavitation gives you gains!" and you are stating that it's over unity. I have pointed out to you a few times that Hydro Dynamics makes no claims at all of over unity on their web site. I have also analyzed a cavitation bubble, and lots of other stuff. There are about half a dozen points in this thread where I ask you to back your claims up or explain yourself further. Lo and behold, you have ignored them all. That tells me, and it tells the readership, that you don't have any technical substance to back up your claims and all of your postings are wishful thinking about cavitation - unless you want to go back and respond to my questions and add substance to your argument.
Going back to the drum water heater. Imagine it's spinning at 600 RPM without cavitation and producing a flow of hot water representing say 500 watts. Then imagine it's spinning at 600 RPM with cavitation and producing a flow of hot water representing say 600 watts. You are shouting and saying, "See, cavitation is amazing and gives you gains!"
What you are missing is this: When the cavitation bubbles happen inside the drum, the drum produces more heat. That extra heat doesn't come from "nowhere." You have two cases where the drum is spinning at 600 RPM. What's the difference? The difference is that the drum that is producing the cavitation requires more torque at the same RPM to account for the increased hot water thermal power output. The drum with the cavitation offers more resistance to the drive motor and therefore requires more torque at a given RPM to output more thermal power.
You are trying to argue that it's "free!!!!!" but it's not free. You haven't presented any evidence to back up your claims nor have you responded to the half-dozen places in the thread where I asked you to add substance to your argument.
I am more than willing to see you put up some evidence or argue your points. But for now, cavitation is just "there" and it doesn't do anything in terms of free energy.
MileHigh
Funny You should say that about Iron MH !!
Iron 's place on the periodic Table is DIRECTLY attributed to its ability to do things previously thought impossible.
Thus The whole Synthetic Nuclear reaction ....{in the 18 minute vid]
Studying The Pistol shrimp has paved the way to Unimaginable opportunities that have absolutely Nothing to do with Pseudo and everything to do with real science.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-FeswwGNQ (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=0de1c882bae3a5d7344e394b19608218&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F13832%2Foverunity-what-is-it%2F15%2F&v=1&libId=d9e222ca-87de-4890-9eeb-c2960e4c84f5&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dba-FeswwGNQ&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2F13832%2Foverunity-what-is-it%2F30%2F&title=Overunity%20(what%20is%20it%3F)&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dba-FeswwGNQ&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13802899385938)
School is in session .........
thx
Chet
PS
To be Prejudice with out investigation is both arrogant and Ignorant [I should know]
PPs
Start with Roger Stringham in the late 90's, http://sonofusionjets.com/ (http://sonofusionjets.com/)
The Iron discovery being discussed in the 18 minute vid is from the last decade 2005 -08 .
@MH
Im not sure how it would work in the drum setup with the holes drilled in it,but with any other water pump,once it cavitates,the load come's off the motor-meaning it draws less current.This we seen all the time in the mine's,with both the water pump's and hydrolic power packs.We found this out when trying to figure out why the surge breakers kept tripping.So myself and the sparky sat there and would watch the amp meters on the motor's.The pump would cavitate ,and the current draw would drop.But when the pump grabed again while running flat out,it would draw a shit load of current in one hit,and throw the breakers.
So from my experiance,cavitation reduces the load on the prime mover. The same applies for boat.When in my youth,and racing formula 3 tunnel boat's,once you trimed up to high,the prop would cavitate,and RPM would go sky high. That was also the end of the prop aswell-high carbon S/S melted in a flash. Now that takes some heat.
But like i said at the start,i dont know if this would be the same in the drum setup?.
Tinman, think of the bubbles as a lot of "ball bearings" alleviating water's elastic death grip on the rotor. Griggs's setup has been tested by various universities, and found to produce more heat than is taken in as electricity, and the technology has not reached it's full potential by a long shot.
TS
Tinman:
I can only offer you a theory for your story. I believe that I have good to very good mechanical aptitude so I will give it a try.
For starters, the drum setup is not a water pump so you can't compare the two. Here is the theory: The pump was obviously being stressed to the limit because the water started to cavitate. When this happens, all of a sudden the water pump is not pumping water anymore. If it's not pumping water then the mechanical load on the electric motor goes way down and thus you see the current consumption drop. It may seem counter-intuitive, but that's the likely scenario.
Now, just for fun, let's take a step back and just look at what's happening at face value without knowing the specifics. The old Black Box experiment. If the current consumption of the motor drops, that means the load on the motor has dropped. It's as simple as that, nothing to think about. Now put that together with your example and you can say with quite a bit of confidence that when the cavitation was happening there was a reduced load on the motor. It's the same idea with the drum. If you are told that the drum is producing more hot water thermal power, then without even looking at it you can look at two possibilities: 1) the driving motor RPM increased, 2) the torque supplied by the driving motor increased. If you are told that the cavitation in the drum increases the thermal power output then with your eyes closed you can say that it takes more torque to drive the drum when cavitation is happening. In this case the cavitation increases the friction that wants to stop the drum from turning.
Going back to your story, if the pump has stopped pumping because of the cavitation, the the the water flow at the output side of the motor slows down. It may slow down a lot in a fraction of a second.
Then the cavitation disappears and all of a sudden the motor is ready to pump again. However, there is a problem. The problem is that you have to overcome the inertia of all of the water in the pipe again because it has slowed down a lot and the pump wants to resume pumping at the normal flow rate. In fact, that's the mechanical inductance of the long pipe filled with water that's causing this problem. Mechanical inertia is a form of inductance. So the pump now has a double load, overcoming the inertia of the water in the pipe, and the regular load that's always there. The motor/pump can't drive the double-load and it chokes and slows down a lot. Because the motor has slowed down a lot, it's not generating enough CEMF, the current shoots up, and the breaker trips.
Quotein my youth,and racing formula 3 tunnel boat's,once you trimed up to high,the prop would cavitate,and RPM would go sky high.
That is a somewhat similar example. When the water cavitates the blades of the prop are not pushing on the water anymore to drive the boat forward. There is no more load. The blades are driving "empty space" or "room temperature steam" instead, hence the propeller RPM shoots way up because there is no longer a load to drive.
TS:
QuoteGriggs's setup has been tested by various universities, and found to produce more heat than is taken in as electricity, and the technology has not reached it's full potential by a long shot.
Please show us some data. Otherwise it's just talk.
MileHigh
QuoteTS:
You should listen to Tinman's words of wisdom. I already told you in a previous posting that my alias just popped into my head, it's not a drug reference at all. Don't even think about making follow-up comments along that line.
Gulp; I'm sorry, it won't happen again. And my sincere apologies to your dealer. I do not wish to offend the cartel! :P
It was an honest question, wrapped in a joke, inside an enigma. I truly wondered if you selected MileHigh for reasons of lifestyle rather than location. Feel free to write an unauthorized biography about my username if you wish, I can take it. My skin isn't quite as thin as some. I might even get a chuckle and encourage further hyperbole! Instead of offering up the over reactionary, "don't even dare" line of defense of what is in fact, just a thin, arbitrary veneer. As you said, an "alias".
QuotePlease show us some data. Otherwise it's just talk.
Us? Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or is Harry Dunn over for a visit?
If you cannot see the evidence already shared for what it is, then your optometrist has my sympathies.
Better days, seeing through the haze, and navigating your maze.
TS
TS:
QuoteIf you cannot see the evidence for what it is, then I am sorry for you.
Really? I view the above comment as pure spin and disconnected from reality. You simply don't have any evidence that I am aware of. The original fire station clip is more than 10 years old now and the guys have wised up. They don't make claims of over unity.
Just by saying "there is evidence" does not not cut it for me and I am sure that there are many that share my opinion. I won't let my brain get comfortably numb and just believe what you are saying just because you are saying it. You see that often in the realm of free energy. Just look at Sterling Allen's web site. Very recently there was a comical motor-generator clip from some Romanian guy where you can see where he tried to hide the power cord for the second motor underneath a 2x4 that formed a stand for the contraption. The vast majority of the comments say that the clip is pure junk yet there are still posters that just blindly want to believe.
I won't ask any more and if you don't provide evidence the readers of the thread can draw their own conclusions.
Webby1:
Like I said, you can't compare apples and oranges. One is a friction heater and the other is a pump. They are completely different things. The cavitation in the friction heater does not affect the integrity of the thin water "skin" that is wrapped around the inner drum. What it does do is create a "disturbance" to the quasi-laminar flow of water that would exist if there was no cavitation. That disturbance to the quasi-laminar flow causes more resistance to the rotation of the inner drum.
For a pump, some kind of cylinder is sucking on a long cylindrical plug of water and pulling it through a long pipe and there is resistance to the water flow. When the length of a pipe is over 100 times the inner diameter of the pipe it acts just like a resistor. When the water cavitates, then the pump is not pulling the water through the long pipe any more hence the resistance experienced by the motor goes down.
Going back to the drum heater, if it was driven to the point that the thin water "skin" that surrounds the drum itself cavitated, then the resistance to rotation would drop sharply and the drum would speed up like crazy. Does that make sense to you?
MileHigh
QuoteGulp; I'm sorry, it won't happen again. And my sincere apologies to your dealer. I do not wish to offend the cartel! (https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2FSmileys%2Fdefault%2Ftongue.gif&hash=712f6fec39e91e3e027f36075cd22a26ca109ea1)
It was an honest question, wrapped in a joke, inside an enigma. I truly wondered if you selected MileHigh for reasons of lifestyle rather than location. Feel free to write an unauthorized biography about my username if you wish, I can take it. My skin isn't quite as thin as some. I might even get a chuckle and encourage further hyperbole! Instead of offering up the over reactionary, "don't even dare" line of defense of what is in fact, just a thin, arbitrary veneer. As you said, an "alias".
Would you like to be called a crack hoe?
I'll tell you what. Think instead about having ssex with a 1974 Sylvie Kristel in bathroom of an airplane during a long transatlantic flight.
Quote
I won't ask any more and if you don't provide evidence the readers of the thread can draw their own conclusions.
Time will tell. And as for the readers of the thread, I'm fairly certain that a goodly number of them are capable of using the "search" function on this site to find further information, as the topic has been re-visited "once or twice".
You're too jaded, you must be communist Chinese.
See, I can make leaps in logic while ignoring evidence too.
I think it obvious that my "vice" is FE. As for your use of "Hoe", that "cracked" me up.
QuoteI'll tell you what. Think instead about having ssex with a 1974 Sylvie Kristel in bathroom of an airplane during a long transatlantic flight.
Wow. With delusional fantasy skills like that....Umm....who needs drugs?
TS
I'll make an appeal to the readers of this thread:
If anybody can provide some links that back up TechStuf's claims about cavitation I would be happy to have a look at them.
Well, it seems obvious that you have fingers....
Perhaps use them for typing a few bits in the search field.
As a wise man once said, "These aren't fart bubbles in the tub we're talking about here". (I paraphrase)
TS
Webby1:
Just for "fun" I tried to look up the tensile strength of water. It was one of those cases where the search was frustratingly difficult. Finally I found what looked like a credible link that stated it can vary between one and 25 megapascals. It depends on things like impurities in the water. So let's say for argument's sake it's two megapascals. Converting that to psi gives you the tensile strength of water being 290 psi.
Air pressure is 14.7 psi. Let's imagine you have a metal cylinder with a closed end and an open end. It's filled with water and the cross-sectional area of the inner cylinder is five square inches. So if you have a piston in the cylinder and a machine pulling on the piston and slowly ratcheting up the pulling force, the machine has to pull with about 1450 pounds of force before the "break" happens and the water cavitates. After the cavitation, then you are only pulling against the outside air pressure, which would be about 73.5 pounds.
So as you can see in this thought experiment, imagine the pulling pressure from the machine slowly increases to the point where it hits 1450 pounds of pulling force. During this whole time the piston is barely moving. Then, all of a sudden, the situation changes and the machine is pulling with 1450 pounds of force, but the resistance to the pulling has suddenly dropped to 73.5 pounds. So the piston will suddenly fly off in the direction of the pulling force.
Now relate that back to the story of the pump speeding up and the power consumption dropping when the cavitation starts. Obviously they are not directly comparable situations, but at least you get a sense of the dynamics at play.
MileHigh
Quote from: tinman on September 27, 2013, 01:06:18 PM
@MH
Im not sure how it would work in the drum setup with the holes drilled in it,but with any other water pump,once it cavitates,the load come's off the motor-meaning it draws less current.This we seen all the time in the mine's,with both the water pump's and hydrolic power packs.We found this out when trying to figure out why the surge breakers kept tripping.So myself and the sparky sat there and would watch the amp meters on the motor's.The pump would cavitate ,and the current draw would drop.But when the pump grabed again while running flat out,it would draw a shit load of current in one hit,and throw the breakers.
So from my experiance,cavitation reduces the load on the prime mover. The same applies for boat.When in my youth,and racing formula 3 tunnel boat's,once you trimed up to high,the prop would cavitate,and RPM would go sky high. That was also the end of the prop aswell-high carbon S/S melted in a flash. Now that takes some heat.
But like i said at the start,i dont know if this would be the same in the drum setup?.
I haven't got far reading this thread yet, but it seems to have gone off topic where I am at, anyway about the cavitation.
How about this theory, the water gains most of it's heat before cavitation begins. The in-out measurements should begin when the device is first turned on and continue for some period after cavitation has been going.
I know what cavitation does when it happens with a prop on a boat, suddenly the engine screams with less load and the boat slows, usually an operator with any sense will reduce the applied power to stop it as quick as possible. In a boat the heat created before cavitation occurs is left behind, with the drum heater I'm guessing the heat remains local.
Cheers
P.S. most boat motors that have cavitation issues usually have an anti cavitation plate or surface which would seem to increase the water pressure around the propeller at a cost of more drag.
Here's my view on O.U. it is short for over unity. THere seems to be an assertion by some that O.U.breaks the laws of thermodynamics.
1) The definition could be seen by some as being more energy out than is consumed in total.
2) Or it could mean more energy out than we put in.
Only the first case would violate any laws of whatever. The second case would not, a solar panel is included in the second case as is hydro and wind input, we don't blow the wind.
Now if we think of it as more out than we put in it is likely the case that some input is from out side the so called "closed system", meaning it is not really a "closed system".
Now also if we consider that in mostly all systems except the entire Universe, the dissipated energy leaves the system, so any system where the dissipated energy leaves the system is an "open system" and therefore not really subject to breaking the 2nd law or whatever, said same system could be also collecting energy from the environment in a similar way to the way the energy is released or another way,either by accident or a device built to do it. Case 2 is nothing special, Case 1 is the Law breaker.
I see only two possible definitions to choose from, i think we should vote on it in a poll, at least so we can see the viewpoints of the majority of posters.
1) The definition of O.U. is "More energy out than is consumed in total".
2) The definition of O.U. is "More energy out than we put in".
Even if we could say which meaning we are speaking of in any situation would help.
Cheers
@farmhand the definition of overunity is more work out than we put in without the need for a fuel-consuming temperature gradient,for the net gain.your 1st definition smashes the 1st law thermodynamics,unlikely to ever happen in a normal laboratory.your 2nd definition covers the 2nd law of thermodynamics(if by 'we' you mean humans) but doesnt exclude natural resources.
Quote from: profitis on March 09, 2014, 01:56:44 AM
@farmhand the definition of overunity is more work out than we put in without the need for a fuel-consuming temperature gradient,for the net gain.your 1st definition smashes the 1st law thermodynamics,unlikely to ever happen in a normal laboratory.your 2nd definition covers the 2nd law of thermodynamics(if by 'we' you mean humans) but doesnt exclude natural resources.
Yes ok then if we consider that definition it means
solar panels, wind and hydro turbines are all Over Unity. Do you agree ? As are some other regular things which produce an output without us providing some or any of the input.
No matter what the mechanism, in that definition if more energy is output then we input we have Over Unity. Also any excess energy from an unknown source is just that an unknown source,
and until we determine that the unknown source is not man made in origin we cannot claim Over Unity. eg. Radio waves or ground disturbances ect.
If we consider man made radio waves as a source of energy not provided by us personally then do we also consider power taken from the grid without paying for it as energy not provided by us and legitimate Over Unity ? I say no, any energy that comes from a man made source should be excluded as they may not be available for ever.
Cheers
I still say we should have a Poll so we can see what the opinion of the majority of posters is. Many people claim they break the Laws of thermodynamics, Lenz's Law and even Ohms Law when they obviously do not. eg.
Cold electricity would break Ohms law, if there was such a thing.
..
Perhaps somebody find this book interesting
Free Energy Principles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msza1mkalq06uw0/fe_principles.pdf
Quote from: vasik041 on March 09, 2014, 04:43:38 AM
Perhaps somebody find this book interesting
Free Energy Principles
https://www.dropbox.com/s/msza1mkalq06uw0/fe_principles.pdf
Free energy is different to the definition of Over Unity. It also depends what you mean by "Free" exactly. I'll give an example.
Take a small community near a river, if we want to build a small hydro station for the community, even if we get all the materials for "free", let's say 'donated', then we still need to build and maintain and run the facility. And if everyone just does their bit with no money involved, it could be considered by some as totally "free" energy.
However if you consider free as in "cost" then all "Costs" as in to the environment, for materials gathering, maintenance and day to day running, possible continuing effect to others down stream or up ect. need be considered.
By the way some people just say "Tesla never claimed Over Unity from the many non Over Unity systems people claim he did for those systems" based mainly on power figures, such as with the "Magnifying Transmitter" people claim it was a free energy device but he clearly states it operates at less than 100% efficiency under Oath and has generators to feed it power and energy. Nothing sad about that at all, what is sad is people continually claiming almost everything Tesla did was Over Unity. He did have energy collectors and idea's for obtaining energy from the Niagara Falls for many years before it happened.
There should be no mistake the energy being tapped by a hydro plant is free, but it costs human effort to collect and distribute it.
Cheers
aha @farmhand.it seems that its a matter of wording as you say.for example cold fusion is a type of energy that is triggered by a 2nd law thermodynamics violation but then self-sustains on nuclear disintergration so its a hybrid natural resource/overunity combo that would require a more technical definition.the way to exclude natural resources completely necessitates a definition that covers a violation of either or both the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics strictly speaking so we need words like this: overunity is a physical violation of either the 1st or 2nd law thermodynamics,period.natural resources mustnt fall under any overunity banner and must be totaly excluded from the above definition.unknown energy sources must also be put in a seperate 'unknown' category and incubate until we know for certain if its 1)true overunity ie. a violation of either or both the 1st and 2nd laws thermodynamics or 2)a hybrid true overunity/natural resource e.g.cold fusion or 3)total natural resource.
I have been searching for the definition of Over-Unity.
I just read a completely different thread on this site that went nowhere.
Now I read this thread and still no consensus.
I always related Over-Unity to efficiency.
Maybe that is wrong?
It appears to me that many think that
Over-Unity is equivalent to COP and not efficiency.
Where ...
COP = Output Energy / Only Human Input Energy
Efficiency = Output Energy / Total Input Energy
And since C.O.P can be > 1 then man-made devices can be Over-Unity.
What is the agreed upon definition of "Over-Unity" at www.overunity.com?
Or is there no consensus, yet?
Or maybe just use the terms COP and Efficiency since they are clearly defined?
Wikipedia's definition for perpetuum mobilum is about as good as it gets.
Quote from: profitis on October 02, 2014, 06:39:14 PM
Wikipedia's definition for perpetuum mobilum is about as good as it gets.
Profitis,
Are you stating the "consensus" definition of Over-Unity per this board is, in fact, the definition of "Perpetual Motion" on wikipedia?
It better be mr summitville.otherwize we are effectively nothing more than an efficiency research corp.
I pondered the question of "Overunity" and what is a definition that would be accurate without causing all of the scientific community to shout verses from the old testament of the "Bible of Conservation".
"Overunity" as per the common tongue and even scientifically accepted (short & to the point) "definition" is impossible, as far as anyone knows, there is only a finite amount of energy in the universe, you under NO circumstances (favorable and/or accidental) can NOT create energy, it can only be converted or collected and stored as "potential energy", this has to be accepted.....but does that mean "Overunity" is in actuality "impossible" ???
I consider myself a skilled and experienced scientist based on my education history, career and theories, and one thing I have always despised and HATED about the scientific community is the egomaniacal, bull-headed mentality of most of them, especially those in my field/s physics & quantum physics, we are the WORST when it comes to "pride, prejudice and bias", God forbid if someone comes along and claims they have a theory or idea that challenges an established "LAW" or a long time accepted theory. chaos ensues, like the damn Biblical Crusades....only worse, though extremely hypocritical, since every scientist hopes they can discover or create something new or even improve that which already exists for themselves, and it is because of things like "curiosity", "imagination" and "competition" that all that makes up the world of science to begin with exists in the first place, do you really think the various "Laws of Conservation" would exist in the first place, if it wasn't for some crazy nut-ball had NOT come along and shouted, "energy is everywhere and in everything !!!", well, no, he was fought against, but it was accepted, then along came the ideas that it was true, but because there is only so much of everything, there can only be so much energy, from there, eventually sprouted those pesky laws of conservation :P
Well, one thing that is a HUGE double edged sword that NO scientist will EVER ADMIT is that "overanalyzing" can kill as easily as confirm !!! so what am I getting at ???
The typical defense "Energy can NEVER be created, only converted from one form to another & therefore any process, device and/or theory claiming to be able to create an energetic output greater than the amount used to initiate and maintain said "process, device and/or theory", is of pure fiction and often the claim itself being the method of some type of scam."
is what is used to kill any chance of us (legitimate) "Overunity" aficionados, from getting our designs and/or theories even looked at, much less seen as a legitimate possibility, (true, the 99% of which are claimed and attempted at selling are the real scammers, does NOT help our case", so, about 30+/- years ago, I believe I came up with a definition that would satisfy everyone....it is very simple, so that scientists will have no choice but to accept it as a legitimate possibility and even the average "Joe" (or Jane) that knows nothing about energy, conservation and/or "Overunity" has to accept.
The new (Non)-Webster's definition of the word "Overunity"
over*unity
The ability to create an energetic output greater than the amount and/or "cost" of energy used to initiate and consistently maintain the process through a system that utilizes a combination of optimal efficiency combined with efficient extraction, recovery and/or conversion of single or a combination of several energy sources.
A typical over*unity system often relies on the use of free sources of energy such as, photonic (light), thermal (heat), kinetic (motion) and electromagnetic fields, but is NOT limited to just those sources.
A simple example would be using a solar panel to initiate a high torque, high speed, high efficiency, brushless motor with several high power magnets and high density coils directly to the rod, extracting an amount of energy from the source of potential energy stored within the magnets, that is greater than the amount of energy required to maintain the motor's movements.
Since the system example itself does not "create" energy, merely collects, extracts and converts sources of energy at great efficiency, the "over*unity" of the system does not contradict any scientifically established and accepted laws.
***
in my experience with my own designs and the theories and designs of the hundreds of others who shared over the decades, I have found that all the non-scam/legitimate attempts fall under this main truth and so I feel that this "Definition" that I have proposed, is one that most "Overunity" aficionados can agree with.
Hope it is acceptable ;D
J.
Quote from: jhewitt1976 on January 10, 2015, 10:22:54 AM
I pondered the question of "Overunity" and what is a definition that would be accurate without causing all of the scientific community to shout verses from the old testament of the "Bible of Conservation".
"Overunity" as per the common tongue and even scientifically accepted (short & to the point) "definition" is impossible, as far as anyone knows, there is only a finite amount of energy in the universe, you under NO circumstances (favorable and/or accidental) can NOT create energy, it can only be converted or collected and stored as "potential energy", this has to be accepted.....but does that mean "Overunity" is in actuality "impossible" ???
I consider myself a skilled and experienced scientist based on my education history, career and theories, and one thing I have always despised and HATED about the scientific community is the egomaniacal, bull-headed mentality of most of them, especially those in my field/s physics & quantum physics, we are the WORST when it comes to "pride, prejudice and bias", God forbid if someone comes along and claims they have a theory or idea that challenges an established "LAW" or a long time accepted theory. chaos ensues, like the damn Biblical Crusades....only worse, though extremely hypocritical, since every scientist hopes they can discover or create something new or even improve that which already exists for themselves, and it is because of things like "curiosity", "imagination" and "competition" that all that makes up the world of science to begin with exists in the first place, do you really think the various "Laws of Conservation" would exist in the first place, if it wasn't for some crazy nut-ball had NOT come along and shouted, "energy is everywhere and in everything !!!", well, no, he was fought against, but it was accepted, then along came the ideas that it was true, but because there is only so much of everything, there can only be so much energy, from there, eventually sprouted those pesky laws of conservation :P
Well, one thing that is a HUGE double edged sword that NO scientist will EVER ADMIT is that "overanalyzing" can kill as easily as confirm !!! so what am I getting at ???
The typical defense "Energy can NEVER be created, only converted from one form to another & therefore any process, device and/or theory claiming to be able to create an energetic output greater than the amount used to initiate and maintain said "process, device and/or theory", is of pure fiction and often the claim itself being the method of some type of scam."
is what is used to kill any chance of us (legitimate) "Overunity" aficionados, from getting our designs and/or theories even looked at, much less seen as a legitimate possibility, (true, the 99% of which are claimed and attempted at selling are the real scammers, does NOT help our case", so, about 30+/- years ago, I believe I came up with a definition that would satisfy everyone....it is very simple, so that scientists will have no choice but to accept it as a legitimate possibility and even the average "Joe" (or Jane) that knows nothing about energy, conservation and/or "Overunity" has to accept.
The new (Non)-Webster's definition of the word "Overunity"
over*unity
The ability to create an energetic output greater than the amount and/or "cost" of energy used to initiate and consistently maintain the process through a system that utilizes a combination of optimal efficiency combined with efficient extraction, recovery and/or conversion of single or a combination of several energy sources.
A typical over*unity system often relies on the use of free sources of energy such as, photonic (light), thermal (heat), kinetic (motion) and electromagnetic fields, but is NOT limited to just those sources.
A simple example would be using a solar panel to initiate a high torque, high speed, high efficiency, brushless motor with several high power magnets and high density coils directly to the rod, extracting an amount of energy from the source of potential energy stored within the magnets, that is greater than the amount of energy required to maintain the motor's movements.
Since the system example itself does not "create" energy, merely collects, extracts and converts sources of energy at great efficiency, the "over*unity" of the system does not contradict any scientifically established and accepted laws.
***
in my experience with my own designs and the theories and designs of the hundreds of others who shared over the decades, I have found that all the non-scam/legitimate attempts fall under this main truth and so I feel that this "Definition" that I have proposed, is one that most "Overunity" aficionados can agree with.
Hope it is acceptable ;D
J.
Couldnt have said it better my self-we have a couple of those here in this forum that fits the highlighted piece of your post.
My quote from post 9-Quote:I posted this same question on both my forum,and at OUR. The answer in general at the end was-an OU device would only remain an OU device,until the input power source was known and understood. The device would then no longer be considered OU.
It will be nice to have some one else on this forum that questions todays physics,and has an open mind to what could be possible.
Brad
Quote from: tinman on January 10, 2015, 08:53:44 PM
It will be nice to have some one else on this forum that questions todays physics,and has an open mind to what could be possible.
There is. I question everything and a lot of the things I question, I have found to be bullshit.
I can tell you something I am absolutely certain of. If you take all these so-called "laws" of physics and give them to a pack of attorneys, within weeks, everyone of those "laws" will be circumvented. Then all you will need is a handful of engineers and technicians that can understand legalese well enough to build something.
Case closed.
I double that. As I said recently, if energy cannot be created, why does it exist? Let us assume mass and energy are just two sides of the same thing, the all, the existance of all things. The amount may be finite, but does it really exist FOREVER? What is forever anyway. Only a closed loop of time can be eternal.
However, Overunity... it simply means an efficiency of more than 100%. Whereever those impossible extra percents come from, which is an entirely isolated issue.
We could say, the efficieny is 90% when we just watch the electrical or gasoline input. Now, if we add a further force to the operation, we may easily achieve > 100%, compared to the electrical / gas input. Whether we can explain the additional force or not.
It's funny that the term "zero point field" comes from established quantum physics (as far as I know), but certainly has been misused by many pseudo inventors, along with other catch phrases.
Let us look at the Atom. It is in constant motion and it executes tremendous force, like the atomic boundries that normally are preventing natural fusion. Electron spin is manifesting 24/7 perpetuum motion. BUT an atom is not a closed system. It is connected to the universe in a way that we just begin to understand. An atom is an open system perpetuum mobile.
There are many ways to tap from the energy of the universal existance. Call it however you want. In the end of the day all energy consumption and usage is simply Unity, because of the conservation.
Established science tho has a completely diffrent agenda when it comes to the discovery of new energy sources. They are strictly bound to the dogmata that were indoctrinated by economic interests, and moreover interests of power and slavery.
J.P. Morgan is one symptomatic example of preventing the world from becoming utopia, for the sake of a handful of filty dollars. This is how little minds shape mankind, the true tragody of this planet. And established science is nothing more but the pet of the money masters, standing on two legs to earn a cookie.
But this is not over yet. We still can fix it, even if that means that some human-like individuals have to step back in evolution.
BR
Quote from: dieter on January 11, 2015, 06:22:41 AM
I double that. As I said recently, if energy cannot be created, why does it exist? Let us assume mass and energy are just two sides of the same thing, the all, the existance of all things. The amount may be finite, but does it really exist FOREVER? What is forever anyway. Only a closed loop of time can be eternal.
However, Overunity... it simply means an efficiency of more than 100%. Whereever those impossible extra percents come from, which is an entirely isolated issue.
We could say, the efficieny is 90% when we just watch the electrical or gasoline input. Now, if we add a further force to the operation, we may easily achieve > 100%, compared to the electrical / gas input. Whether we can explain the additional force or not.
It's funny that the term "zero point field" comes from established quantum physics (as far as I know), but certainly has been misused by many pseudo inventors, along with other catch phrases.
Let us look at the Atom. It is in constant motion and it executes tremendous force, like the atomic boundries that normally are preventing natural fusion. Electron spin is manifesting 24/7 perpetuum motion. BUT an atom is not a closed system. It is connected to the universe in a way that we just begin to understand. An atom is an open system perpetuum mobile.
There are many ways to tap from the energy of the universal existance. Call it however you want. In the end of the day all energy consumption and usage is simply Unity, because of the conservation.
Established science tho has a completely diffrent agenda when it comes to the discovery of new energy sources. They are strictly bound to the dogmata that were indoctrinated by economic interests, and moreover interests of power and slavery.
J.P. Morgan is one symptomatic example of preventing the world from becoming utopia, for the sake of a handful of filty dollars. This is how little minds shape mankind, the true tragody of this planet. And established science is nothing more but the pet of the money masters, standing on two legs to earn a cookie.
But this is not over yet. We still can fix it, even if that means that some human-like individuals have to step back in evolution.
BR
Physics is correct, but it has only defined and supported "less than 100% efficient" devices and constructs. Physics assumes and only accepts that all methods are bound to be less than 100% overall efficient. That is not true in reality. You can take a force and add that ability to a conventional device to improve overall efficiency beyond 100%, if designed correctly and efficiently.
The corrupt belief of "millions of years" (in "evolution") as truth, has corrupted areas of science (and limited their ability to think higher), and led it astray and on a wrong path away from admitting creation and God, the source of life and truth and reality and in higher thinking. The belief that things continue over extremely long periods of time (which is not observable) and evolve into higher states, is deeply flawed and founded in ignoring historical geological records and facts that soundly and easily disprove evolution as a viable theory. Leading astray real observable science and attempting to replace it with a corrupt belief in a man-made up religion and false science, based on lies and corruption of facts, in an attempt to be without God and ignore the source of life and light, which leads to their own demise.
Liberty
Overunity is around us.Heat pumps, solar panels and so on. OU devices are simply better then already knew ones today. For example a solar panel tapping WHOLE range of EM spectrum, or a solar panel in 3D form with mirrors and so on. Heat pumps which tap Earth magnetic field are already known but supressed.
If there is single person on this forum believing in magic creation of energy he should re-think his statement.
Quote from: forest on January 11, 2015, 01:03:36 PM
Overunity is around us.Heat pumps, solar panels and so on. OU devices are simply better then already knew ones today. For example a solar panel tapping WHOLE range of EM spectrum, or a solar panel in 3D form with mirrors and so on. Heat pumps which tap Earth magnetic field are already known but supressed.
If there is single person on this forum believing in magic creation of energy he should re-think his statement.
I don't think either heat pumps or solar panels fit the definition of an 'overunity' device.
A heat pump may output 3 or more times more energy as heat than the work required to run it. However you couldn't then capture that heat output, turn it back into work and use that work to run itself. As such it follows the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The end result of any conversion of energy is always increased entropy.
Localised entropy decrease is possible but when considered as a closed system, entropy only ever increases.
Most people when they describe over-unity are theorising devices (knowingly or not) that would violate the 2nd law.
It just doesn't happen. If you believe it can then you simply don't actually understand the meaning of the 2nd law.
However, the second law does not preclude using previously unknown energy gradients and transforming them into work or some other useful form of energy.
Quote from: LibreEnergia on January 11, 2015, 10:41:35 PM
I don't think either heat pumps or solar panels fit the definition of an 'overunity' device.
A heat pump may output 3 or more times more energy as heat than the work required to run it. However you couldn't then capture that heat output, turn it back into work and use that work to run itself. As such it follows the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The end result of any conversion of energy is always increased entropy.
Localised entropy decrease is possible but when considered as a closed system, entropy only ever increases.
Most people when they describe over-unity are theorising devices (knowingly or not) that would violate the 2nd law.
It just doesn't happen. If you believe it can then you simply don't actually understand the meaning of the 2nd law.
However, the second law does not preclude using previously unknown energy gradients and transforming them into work or some other useful form of energy.
Very well said Sir. I agree totally.
If indeed a heat pump was overunity, then you could simply plug it into itself and run it for free, which we all know can not be done.
To me, self-running, closed loop is the only standard that would prove true O.U. As TK has stated many times, if you actually get 1.2 % more out than in, you should be able to make a self-runner. When he posses this to many folks that claim 300%, or even 1,000% overunity, they just say that they had tried this and it does not work. Of course not. And, we know why.
Bill
Libra
Quote
However, the second law does not preclude using previously unknown energy gradients and transforming them into work or some other useful form of energy.
so you mean something like this?
Forest
Quote
Heat pumps which tap Earth magnetic field are already known but suppressed
----------------------
thx
Chet.
Quote from: ramset on January 12, 2015, 04:34:06 AM
Libra
Quote
However, the second law does not preclude using previously unknown energy gradients and transforming them into work or some other useful form of energy.
so you mean something like this?
Forest
Quote
Heat pumps which tap Earth magnetic field are already known but suppressed
----------------------
thx
Chet.
I'm unaware of any heat-pumps that 'tap the earths magnetic field'.
There are heat pumps that operate using magnetism but these don't 'tap the earths field'. They use a magnet near its currie point and absorb heat from the air. They are not over-unity, although they can be quite efficient.
As to heat pumps that do tap the energy of the earth, I have one myself. It is as ground source heat pump that extracts heat from the water in a well on my property. It runs hot water radiators and has better efficiency than an air source heat pump.
Quote from libre-energia:'the end result of any conversion of energy is always increased entropy.
Localised entropy decrease is possible but when considered as a closed system, entropy only ever increases.'
Unquote
Gibberish
Quote from: profitis on January 21, 2015, 06:13:50 PM
Quote from libre-energia:'the end result of any conversion of energy is always increased entropy.
Localised entropy decrease is possible but when considered as a closed system, entropy only ever increases.'
Unquote
Gibberish
Just because you disagree with the statement does not make it 'gibberish'..
You should be able to describe even one process where this is not true, but you can't.
Quote from libre-energia:'You should be able to describe even one process where this is not true,but you can't.'
Unquote
More gibberish.I was the first guy in history to publicly take credit for discovering a number of oxygen and hydrogen catalytic spillover cells eg the nickel-MnO2 variety.if you go to the karpen pile thread its all there explained bare.this whole class of electrochemical cells are entirely self-sustaining and contrare to kelvin statement.they are exceptionaly replicable by anybody with moderate skills-knowledge.if you have one,just one violation of kelvin rule you are 100% guaranteed to find many many more such discrepencies across whole scientific spectrum of engines
Yes, like many before you, you claim to have a way to break thermodynamic laws, and like the rest when it comes to you supplying proof, it doesn't happen. First you claimed the proof was in text books. But you never provided even one citation. Then you claimed it was in experiments anyone else could do, but have not demonstrated yourself. Then you said you could guide someone else through a demonstration of thermodynamic law violations. Pomodoro took you up. Instead of specifying a specific experiment that demonstrated your claims, you changed the experiment you wanted conducted several times. In the end the thermodynamic law violation was not seen.
Anytime you like step right up and back your boisterous claims with reliable evidence.
Pomodoro was too scared to show any working high-powered device with his high-tech equipment(I don't blame him although im rather disapointed).wonder why his youtube failed karpen is still up.what is a camera and photography setup by me going to do that you yourself cannot do @mark E.what is preventing you from shoving nickel foil of various thickness and pyrolusite into soda ash to rule out kelvin law? I wouldve thought that replicability was the one thing that you would demand.
Quote from: profitis on January 22, 2015, 04:05:21 AM
Pomodoro was too scared to show any working high-powered device with his high-tech equipment(I don't blame him although im rather disapointed).wonder why his youtube failed karpen is still up.what is a camera and photography setup by me going to do that you yourself cannot do @mark E.what is preventing you from shoving nickel foil of various thickness and pyrolusite into soda ash to rule out kelvin law? I wouldve thought that replicability was the one thing that you would demand.
You have not shown an experiment that ostensibly violates thermodynamic laws to replicate.
The enterntaining part is that you just blithely keep going as though you don't notice that it's obvious to anyone with a pulse just badly your claims and actions misalign. What's stopping you from saving the world with the remarkable discoveries that you claim? Oh, yeah it's the R word: Reality.
Quote frm mark E:'You have not shown an experiment that ostensibly violates thermodynamic laws to replicate'
Unquote
Replicability is a pre-requisite for direct proof of any kelvin violation thus I demand that you and libre build any oxygen spillover cell or retract your statements.
Quote from: profitis on January 22, 2015, 06:13:32 AM
Quote frm mark E:'You have not shown an experiment that ostensibly violates thermodynamic laws to replicate'
Unquote
Replicability is a pre-requisite for direct proof of any kelvin violation thus I demand that you and libre replicate an oxygen spillover cell or retract your statements.
LOL, you are still the same old profitis. You are still making the same outlandish claims and still failing to offer any actual evidence that supports them. Instead, you demand that other people perform experiments for you that would supposedly shatter physics as we know it. At least you are still good for a laugh.
Replicability mark E.I can't help you and libre if you guys are too lazy to build and see for yourselves.same shit with sarkeizen except maybe he can be forgiven as he aint got a lab..
Quote from: profitis on January 22, 2015, 06:39:25 AM
Replicability mark E.I can't help you and libre if you guys are too lazy to build and see for yourselves.same shit with sarkeizen except maybe he can be forgiven as he aint got a lab..
LOL, you haven't presented a successful test to replicate, but everyone else is lazy. That's priceless.
Quote frm mark E:'you haven't presented a successful test to replicate,'
Unquote
Uh-uh.you have to explain to scientists why not one of those cells diagrammed obey faradays law of equivalency in real life before you can say that.
Quote from: profitis on January 22, 2015, 11:43:09 AM
Quote frm mark E:'you haven't presented a successful test to replicate,'
Unquote
Uh-uh.you have to explain to scientists why not one of those cells diagrammed obey faradays law of equivalency in real life before you can say that.
LOL, I'll say one thing: When it comes to playing the clown, you are very dedicated.
Probably as dedicated as you are in refusing to show a single replication of an electrochemical cell powered by a catalytic spillover gradient sure @mark E.
Quote from: profitis on January 22, 2015, 12:28:40 PM
Probably as dedicated as you are in refusing to show a single replication of an electrochemical cell powered by a catalytic spillover gradient sure @mark E.
LOL, well wehn you do a little bit better than showing a photograph and declaring that as proof of a chemical reaction violating thermodynamic laws I might take you a bit more seriously.
Nevermind the drawings and demos @mark E.you and libre have a lot of explaining to do for the panel of scientist spectators.for example:is it possible for a common gaseous electrode concentration cell raise its chemical entropy without lowering its pressure entropy.this is just one of many questions you and libre can expect to be bombarded with by the science establishment
Quote from: profitis on January 22, 2015, 05:27:31 PM
Nevermind the drawings and demos @mark E.you and libre have a lot of explaining to do for the panel of scientist spectators.for example:is it possible for a common gaseous electrode concentration cell raise its chemical entropy without lowering its pressure entropy.this is just one of many questions you and libre can expect to be bombarded with by the science establishment
LOL, you keep acting as though it is someone else's responsibility to pitch your claims of thermodynamic law violations.
It IS your and libre's responsibility to correct any discrepencies that may arise in our textbooks before making broad-sweeping statements yes.here's another: if a nonstandard gaseous electrode is coupled galvanicly with a standard gaseous electrode under equal pressure /temperature what will happen and how
Quote from: profitis on January 23, 2015, 03:06:32 AM
It IS your and libre's responsibility to correct any discrepencies that may arise in our textbooks before making broad-sweeping statements yes.here's another: if a nonstandard gaseous electrode is coupled galvanicly with a standard gaseous electrode under equal pressure what will happen and how
LOL, no profitis: The extraordinary claim that
you have discovered a way to violate thermodynamic laws is yours. You can either come up with reliable evidence that supports your claim or stick with your well-established M/O of empty big talk. Given years of you talking the talk without walking the walk, you offer no reason for anyone to expect that you will ever back-up your claim.