(sorry if this somehow ends up duplicated)
I have been playing with these toroidal coils; specifically in a ratio of 1:1 for turns around vs through the toroidal form.
I want to record some notes; and maybe get some input on how to further use these to manipulate the focused fields.... I need another signal generator at least... for each vortex that gets opened, I want to keep open instead of having it(them) close...
There isn't a specific term for these coils; ABHA (Abha?) maybe; they are not pancake, and they are not solenoid. Although both of these other forms of coils perform a similar function and have similar results, they do not have the same results.
Each turn is exactly the same length as every other turn from the center to a certain diameter of the outer substance.... on every layer. Every turn has it's focus point centered in the middle of the toroid.
The center void is the most active area of induction; although detectable inductions can happen through each loop. Each loop is also tightly closed with itself. Every loop passes through every other loop, enforcing that in any direction the flux will definatly cross the other side.
They make an excellent 1:1 transformer even though it has an air core.
*Terms for the 2 diameters that can be refered to in common language need to exist*
the number of turns through the center determine the frequency; for similar geometrys, 12 turns has a resonant frequency of 10Mhz, 24 turns has a resonant frequency at 5Mhz (approximately, by a large percentage of probable error). If the coil has turns the size of a nickel or is 2 dollar bills across, they experience a similar resonant frequency.
Some other winds I did.....
I have one other that's higher density; and much lower frequency...
this generates solid 10:1 resonant output for a sine wave input at about 85Khz... it's about 40-50m of wire wound in 4 layers.
One descending CCW 5m
One descending CW 7.5m
One descending CCW 10m
One descending CW 15m
As the diameter of the outside substance increases, the amount of windings it can hold increases. Winding it back and forth likes this makes a very stable structure.
This doesn't work like a joule thief winding; not in joule theif mode anyway, it can be wired in a similar condition, but using more of a blocking oscillator... you can make a transistor oscillate by just making a slow charge on the gate that is cleared when it conducts... without having the saturation take place. A higher power joule theif will run current until saturation of the core and a spontaneous dump provides the most output force.
If this coil is wound on a feous toroid, it doesn't matter, and really seems irrelavent; so although there is a composite field which should be thorugh the toroid, the real composite is through the toroid.
I have a video that very badly (doesn't show at all) shows that the field from the toroid is directional; The dectection coil has to be also resonant with the coil being detected; if it is not, even though the coil is active, the indicator shows no result.
I had my first contracted coil ( loose wound with a tie in the center....)...
I had this chained to a bunch of the others of similar turn count, and ended up with a higher resant output; but each toroid had its own field ... and it was focused so the detector center vertical axis had to aligh with the center of the other toroid vertical axis to be best effect. The field on the loose toroid was detexted vertical to the center, a small diamter from the center.... so the real bubble was within the point of the toroid.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qVhcC41C88)
Okay, and one more thing, the SEG (searl effect gen) requires a spiral pattern be imprinted on the magnets; that's paritally the drive the winding of the large bore toroid. Although a field is definatly in the center, if the red was grounded or isolated, (existing only for spacing) a high current could be fed through the green and imprint a progressive, diagonal n/s field. ... so then is there 12:1 turns around the stator? or is it also 1:1, and therefore a different gradient. BUt there could then appear individual poles going around the top.
This is a test winding using red plastic weed cutter...
The tension on the line to be straight (the line wants to be straight not curved) causes it to press against the inner side of the cardboard tube used as a former.
Did I mention that the best effect is found when driving the coil in an open ended fashion?
Here's a list of videos...
by the way; this coil is very flexible in the direction to collapse the central point tighter. the more pressure is applied in the center outward
Showing the construction of the large coil. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSNCj8bE14k)
It started from a flat winding, and it's a single rotation to expand it.... although depending on the axis of the turn it does expand in different directions.... the resulting pumpkin, tight center shape is uhmm... like a 45 degree axis rotation... from ehere the eends come out 180 degrees from each other...
Video showing the large coil.... expanded some from contraction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dei24DwjBE)and it's a single rotation to expand it.... although depending on the axis of the turn it does expand in different directions.... the resulting pumpkin, tight center shape is uhmm... like a 45 degree axis rotation... from ehere the eends come out 180 degrees from each other...
attempting to use a toroid to induce into a solenoid... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtEV6JypIKY) Didnt' have much luck... I dunno maybe I'll try it differently. I have a suspicison that this will be a better than pancake to induce into a tesla coil.... but I've not gotten a successful tesla coil with output... (other than basic straight induction from the high voltage pulse); maybe it's because I beleive things like the prior statement...
How do I incrase the power output to a dead open circuit? Is this an antenna? Should I connect it... I dunno ground it is bad, the opposite end of the coil from the signal generator experiences a high voltage output; Near resonance, the voltage expressed at the input is decreased; The phase at resonance also shifts... like the optimal power phase the input and output signals are not 180 or 90 degrees out of phase, but are much less; but increasing the frequency past resonance, then the input signal increases voltage. Now There have been a few points and harmonics I have hit because of the capacitance of the scope, and consolidating and removing the probes changed the frequency.
Earlier I was experimenting with these coils, but was driving them in a close loop fashion. .... And I did find certain effects, turns out the resnant frequency was feeding back to the transistor and unbalancing it so it would self oscillate, without grounding the gate (almost directly, using a test lead as a resistor)... it kept getting into a runaway condition; I ended up driving the coil as an inverter and getting from 27V and 2.2Amps to powering a flouresent light and 100V LED load quite brighly... but then that's like 35W. But, the coil is 1:1 winding ratio.
This is that... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeedLE1qIg) using my TL494 Driver from Dally project... This was optimally a short duty cycle, not the shortest, but not the longest either.... but there was a wide range... and it was best to find the best power point with a short duty cucle, and then incrase the duty cycle to have a larger current flow; But this didn't really have resonant points... this was just a particular frequency... but probably it's because ti's a square wave which is stimulating a lot of octives at once.
Like; if I have a transformer that's some 12:1 ratio, and connect the pulse generator to the 1 side, and this coil on the output, I won't get anything. if I connect the other end of the transformer secondary to ground, and have these on the open output side, is that the same sort of pulse? Is there a way I can make a more isolated pulse ?
- ammended notes -
I said the point of focus was the same in all coils, this is not true; it is the center of the torus, but is offset in progressively outer windings; There may be a desire to keep the minor diameter at < 1/4(?) the major diameter; this will keep the focus of each loop within empty space.
Toroidal dimensions are referred to as major and minor also... so major is the radius that rotates around the vertical axis of the toroid. The vertical axis is a pretty good reference? then the minor radius is that which is the area cross section; a picture worth a hundred words in this case :(
- Edit Added toroidal coil usage schematic; and vertical axis reference idea.
I have a single layer bifilar solenoid coil from my (pyramid generator; from that austrian(?) guy... the coils when used in a cpacitve/nidicutor mode end up being a AM frequency but anyway... ) it's 12 gauge wound on a single layer and another coil the same length of wire wound on top of that; using a square wave it stinulates voltage increase at 1Mhz like other similar toroidal coils, ( I guess; but in much more space).
I guess all of tesla's receiving coils were grounded; in my extended coil test, the last ones weren't actually connected to the signal sources either...
So... maybe dollard's LMD could be formed with these... hmm no it sort of lacks a capacitive element.
So, if there isn't a saturation point (which only ferro magnetic cores reach) there's just an ever expanding field... , how many pulses do I need to be able to hold the field open? 3 phases wouldn't seem to be enough ...
6 phases might be enough, one every 30 degrees... wish I had a better sketch program... (or a graphing calculator; found one; Hmm ya 30 degree offset, for 6 is 180; and makes a good composite, but still collapses...
*sorry I'm just sort of thinking aloud*
This is roughly what my setup looks like. The signal generator is a TL494 or a RIGOL 20mhz pulse genrator (+/-3V max); if it is the signal generator, it replaces everything up to the connection to L3; the air core pair L3/L4 is the first 1-1 toroidal coil....
L1-L2 pair (looks like a mangled L2 on the image I think) is a step up transformer; in my case this has a resonant frequency at 455Khz something that is hard to escape, and the ferro-magnetic core... (this is a 0-n toroid coil, that is the loops are wound entirely around the minor diameter, so the angle of their vertical axis is 90 degrees from the vertical axis; you know all loops preferaby without actually completing 1 wind around the major diameter )
L3 in any case is connected to a pulsing signal on one side and open on the other. LEDs may be connected in series to provide a high voltage breakdown ; Neons or something otherwise may be approprite at higher levels...
The bridge rectifier to capacitive storage is only connected on one side; so could be simplified to 2 diodes I think.
the S1 and S2 are remanents of when I was testing without L1-L2 stepup; and was driving a voltage through L3 with the other end attached to power (in the place of L1); I would get back pulses that I think trigger a (collector resonant oscillator) behavior, and the NPN driving the NPN leaves the base of Q2 slightly high; so it ends up retriggering; in efforts to squelch that (the output from the TL494 is really a NPN transistor that is Q1 broken out from the signal generator itself) it has a 5V voltage regulator supply to trigger the gate of Q2 which is a parallel array of transistors/mosfets to drive heavy currents. In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xMQADpPE2U (http://[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xMQADpPE2U)]some video closing S1 (aka attaching with a clip lead) (attaching an inductor to the gate of Q2, after already having some oscillation, non self starting) then I could get similar power with significant reduction in amp draw.
the resistor on S2 is near 0 value; as a ground sink for any stray signal from Q1;
The RMS voltage across an inductor is RMS amps times reactance in ohms. Thus 2 amps RMS AC will generate 2000 volts RMS across a 1000 ohm reactance. However, this voltage is pure reactive and can not do work. The power factor for an inductor and capacitor is zero. Your toroid driver circuit looks like it works by capturing the voltage spike produced when transistor turns off, much like a Joule thief. In this case the voltage across the coil depends on how fast the current turns off and the power is function of energy stored in magnetic field of coil. I would recommend using the full wave rectifier to charge the capacitors and then powering the LEDs from the capacitors. This prevents large voltage spikes from damaging the LEDs.
Quote from: xee2 on October 25, 2013, 07:48:42 PM
The RMS voltage across an inductor is RMS amps times reactance in ohms. Thus 2 amps RMS AC will generate 2000 volts RMS across a 1000 ohm reactance. However, this voltage is pure reactive and can not do work. The power factor for an inductor and capacitor is zero. Your toroid driver circuit looks like it works by capturing the voltage spike produced when transistor turns off, much like a Joule thief. In this case the voltage across the coil depends on how fast the current turns off and the power is function of energy stored in magnetic field of coil. I would recommend using the full wave rectifier to charge the capacitors and then powering the LEDs from the capacitors. This prevents large voltage spikes from damaging the LEDs.
Okay; I made a spreadsheet with the reactance calculations. And I understand that reactance is equal for then capacitance and inductance at a resonant frequency. Erms=Irms*R...
yes, sometimes I have the LEDs across the capacitors; because that is a 500mf 1000v capacitor, sometimes it's much easier to find resonance with just the LEDs, and later attatch the capacitor.
Another experiment today; I put a new tri-filar (2 of the phone punchdown wire, 1 20g magnet wire ) to see if there was a detectable difference between receiving gauges of wire. I put this coil inside the 14g red-green coil mostly flattened out (the outer diameter of the smaller coil is approx the same as the inner diameter of the red/green coil expanded as much as possible. I found a resonance at 1.25Mhz, and later at 2.5Mhz, but; In this configuration, Introducing ferrite into the center played little effect; but laying it on the junction between the inner and outer coils affected the frequency significantly. Alignment of the driving coil and receiving coil are very significant. Improved stability of resonance by shorting the remaining 2 windings, or combining and grounding one end. (To reiterate a little, the signal is on one filament of the inner toroidal coil, ground is only attached on the outer toroidal coil). I replaced the new trifilar with an older, smaller bifilar, and it experienced the same resonant frequency (which again is hints that the frequency is more a factor of the receiving coil than the exciter/primary), but it has at least a half inch of distance between the larger and smaller coils, and it also works with ground only attached on the receiving outer coil; and works better if the second winding is shorted (self induced current?).
... the magnetic field is measured in like Amp-Meters, so increasing the current increases potential voltage.
this is a combined capacitor/inductor, with larger notable effect from its inductance. why is the connection of ground on a specific side so cricital? maybe because it ensures more length used as a capacitance, which allows a current flow, which is what gives the magnetic field... but if that is the case, then the reduced capacitance of the 14 guauge red/green coil would have a significant drop of power...; but if that was all really true, attaching the ground to an entirely different coil should also reduce the capacitance to a point that there is no current, and no voltage result? but it does not.
I'll record this later maybe. (a few todos; use micro toroid to drive large; retest large coil alone in a contracted state; coil calculator says 24 turns at 8inches with a length of 1inch is 200uH; and 24 turns at 8 inches with a length of 8 inches is 79.4 microhenries. which is approximately what I measure with my meter between flatened/expanded and contracted (tight center, tall loops). (hmm at 200uH, 1Mhz, is 126.65 Picofarad, but I am attached to a scope to see this, although detaching probes does not disturb the frequencies enough to affect the output much )
But; early coils that were only 24 feet of wire (12' cw descending and 12' ccw, and shorted so the general direction around the toroid is the same direction (cw or ccw from one end to the other) transferred lots of power.
To go back to Erms=Irms*R; I would expect Rind = Rcap, and Rind primary = Rind secondary; so what is the voltage increase? Resonant stacking; is there a cap to resonant voltage? I guess Emax=Imax*Rind; so what is Imax theoertical? AWG guages of wire have a measured current they carry; but I've seen high frequency induction carry lots of power on a very thin wire....
Oh
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Edit; gotit.
So increased inductance increases Rind and decreased capacitance increases Rcap; so in the case of a tesla coil the Rind primary vs Rind seconary results in a translation in the Erms=Irms*Rsec vs Rpri
Rcap= Reactance capacitance
Rpri = Reactance Inductance Primary (exciter)
Rsec = Reactance Inductance Secondary (receiver)
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If I just attach the coil end at the collector and attach the 12V to the collector of a NPN; so the interuption is the pulse into the coil from the current stopping... would that be a good driver system? is that closer resemblance to a spark gap a pulse driver into the coil? Wastes a lot of current that way though...
Quote from: d3x0r on October 25, 2013, 11:43:21 PM
So increased inductance increases Rind and decreased capacitance increases Rcap; so in the case of a tesla coil the Rind primary vs Rind seconary results in a translation in the Erms=Irms*Rsec vs Rpri
Rcap= Reactance capacitance
Rpri = Reactance Inductance Primary (exciter)
Yes. But reactance is usually written as XC annd XL. Rind is usually the DC resistance of the wire.
"RMS voltage = RMS AC current times reactance"
is usually used with sine waves.
You are also experiencing coil loading. This is where the inductance of one coil is effected by coupling to another coil. Capacitive loading is also possible.
I think you have made the circuit so complicated that it is hard to understand. Perhaps experimenting with a simple series LC circuit made by putting a simple coil in series with a capacitor on the sig gen output would make things clearer.
Quote from: xee2 on October 26, 2013, 03:38:19 AM
is usually used with sine waves.
You are also experiencing coil loading. This is where the inductance of one coil is effected by coupling to another coil. Capacitive loading is also possible.
I think you have made the circuit so complicated that it is hard to understand. Perhaps experimenting with a simple series LC circuit made by putting a simple coil in series with a capacitor on the sig gen output would make things clearer.
Actually I'm mostly just using a signal generator a coil (or pair) and the LED load.... just considering ways to use more power... the signal generator is just an output from some semiconductor chip of unknown capacitance and unknown current.
But earlier I was the pulse generator and a couple higher power transistors; and that was a square wave on the input and the output (well a sharp pulse anyway); and was non resonant; but had the equivalent increase in voltage that I get with a lower power resonant frequency.....
I guess the ground side doesn't matter on the recieving coil; if it's a seperate coil that has the ground...
The second image; test schematic represents the 2-coupled trifilar-bifilar coil test that the ferrite in the center of the toroid doesn't help...
the third image test schematic 2 is what my bench currently has, I get some 15V out, 3V in, 3Mhz, ground only on the second (outer); shorted winding important, but I can also just extend the primary winding to be both in a continouous path and that also helps...
This is a simple 2 transistor driver for square waves that worked for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOTqPIqe1o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOTqPIqe1o)
Be sure to use the output capacitor if you build it.
Quote from: xee2 on October 26, 2013, 09:22:58 AM
This is a simple 2 transistor driver for square waves that worked for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOTqPIqe1o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KOTqPIqe1o)
Be sure to use the output capacitor if you build it.
Okay; that is a simple mod to my existing driver module; but I could only get 5V between Q1 and Q2....
running simulation, it's limited to the gate voltage of the NPN; unless the collector voltage is lower than that. As the capacitor charges, the emitter voltage becomes higher; which makes its ground reference 5v=0... (something like that)
Quote from: d3x0r on October 27, 2013, 01:04:32 AM
Okay; that is a simple mod to my existing driver module; but I could only get 5V between Q1 and Q2....
running simulation, it's limited to the gate voltage of the NPN; unless the collector voltage is lower than that. As the capacitor charges, the emitter voltage becomes higher; which makes its ground reference 5v=0... (something like that)
I like the circuit because it only draws current from +V when charging the capacitor. As the capacitor is charged and discharged the current flows back and forth through the transformer primary thus providing an AC input to the transformer.
4th time's the charm; doesn't like attaching lots of files today.
Animated view of coil....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpC5Z6zMlD4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpC5Z6zMlD4)
Contracting the coil reduces inductance some, but increases the output voltage.
Quote from: d3x0r on October 29, 2013, 07:09:48 PM
Contracting the coil reduces inductance some, but increases the output voltage.
How are you measuring coil inductance?
Quote from: xee2 on October 29, 2013, 10:48:47 PM
How are you measuring coil inductance?
I have an inexpensive LC meter. I also put the values into coil inductance caluculators based no dimensions.
Contracted coils can be inverted in the center; to form a somewhat sphereical cavity. I have put a large round ligthbulb in this coil; The red/green bifilar is the same size, and could accomadate the bulb.
I have learned that with a tight area, the small coil with LED can pick up a field. At each of the tight intersectoins, but not in the center. But I can put a conventionally wound toroid in the center, aligned horizontally the same and get an inducatance.
(you can sort of see the LED is lit, a glimmer in the camera flash... the toroid in the center is wound in electical tape and a few turns of red/green 12g wire....
The small pickup coil I was using picks up a field where it is tighly contracted at the top and bottom, but not in the center; which is what then led me to think that the field in the center is really more a conventional ferrite torroid... and I got 5V+/- on that toroid from a +/3 2.5V input on the outside ...
4Mhz Signals are magic.... :(
the video... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ1S5_XJIjc)
attached schematics,
L3/L4 is the 12g coil (large, expanded)
L5/L6 is a toroidal coil in the center of the contracted center of L3/L4; L5 is 12 turns, L6 is 70 turns There is another winding that is unused on it that is also 70 turns.
The grounds are not the same ground; the ground common to the coils is to the plug in the wall;
the ground on the signal generator works as a ground for the LED load as well as the earth ground; but if they are together, the signal doesn't work right. In the video, they all share a common aluminum heat sink, except the signal generator ground, which is loose and is not connected to anything.
L1/L2 is a small coil, about 24 turns; made of 2 lengths of about 8 feet of wire; after removing it and retuning slightly was able to get the same output to the LEDs with and without the L1/L2 coil; however, the ground and the signal are together...
Edit/ Had the signal output on the wrong side
I found some rubber plumbing washers that are slightly smaller than 1" ID and slightly more than 1" OD, I wound these with 12 turns of 4 filaments in the same direction; then connected the two pairs together so I have 2 filaments with 24 turns; all approximately 1"; my meter measures 0.25-0.26uH; coil inductance calculator for 24 turns at 1" and 1/8" tall (I would have guessed 1/4") is 25.2uH, (1/4 is 20.6uH). Each resonates at 2.5Mhz or so, to the same level. I did have a few times where I had a acoustic-beat waveform, but shifted their positions on ferrite cores (these are tubes through the center of the toroids) and removed the beat; which imroved balanced output. But with each section, if I make a change to another section, rebalances what is the resonant frequency.
I put them on some of the ferrite cores I have to provide a little tuning/balancing.
Empirical information; I started with 1, and got it tuned so it would light its lights with and without a scope probe; when tuning with the scope attached, the frequency changes significantly enough to matter. As I added more coils, I had my first coil lighting maybe 24LEDs in series; but then when the second one got added, I could light 12 on one and 12 on the other. Then I added the 12V LED module, and after rebalancing could light 5-6 and 5-6 and the 12V module. I finally added a 4th coil, attached to the bridge rectifier and a capacitor. Original frequency started at 3.3Mhz or so, and ended up at 2.22Mhz.
So from all of these I should be able to calculate the maximum current the signal generator is generorating, but I won't. The point is, power in = power out minus losses.
The geometry of the coil yields a solenoid of most collapsed dimensions.
The convergence of wires yields a n/s composite field at the 1-2 focus points. These points should stimulate a solenoid coil.
If there are 2 focus points, the area in the center will stimulate a normal toroid coil (90 degrees from a solenoid)
Even if there were a vortex, without a continuous pulling motion to keep it stressed, it will collapse back to its negative state.
There seems to be no difference between 1 layer and 2 layers going in opposing directions.
Attached schematic is my latest test setup; I won't bore you with videos, it would just confuse the situation with my rats nest wiring. (I started with both grounds connected, so there is a connection between these two ground points.
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For a while in the beginning, I had another coil also with approx 24 turns, slightly larger, which had a stray lead attached, and was picking up enough energy to resonate; the capacitance from my body field would adjust the frequency enough to shift from the first coil to this coil powering very reliably; probably very theramin-like.
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I did have certain wiring directions where the scope was picking up a DC bias of 6V or so... and measuring between the test point and ground with a DC meter confirmed that there was a DC bias; but it was floating and not grounded, however, that did bring me back to thinking about making a area that was a positive potential, but worked relative to itself, which would thereby generate a current from ground through a filtering load and to the circuit....
Oh and one more thing, if you do have someone on a swing that weighs 150 pounds (68Kg whatever), and push them with 1/8 of their weight, you will increase the height of their swing (okay substitute something for someone, so it's not alive or animated). If near the top of their swing you put a board attached to some other lever system, when the swining object hits the board at the top, it will lose part of its energy; it will remain in resonance itself until the friction on the chain/air slows it to a stop (a much lower ressitance than is experienced by signals in electronics); but anyway, you can only steal a fraction of the power of the resonance, or it will stop entirely; and if your input in insufficient to keep the difference active... then the swing wont go high enough to trigger the load properly)
Isn't it necessary to have expert level precision in this ?
So that the Toroidal coil is almost exact (99%) ?
Also what you expect to find or is this just peek and poke ?
Sincerely.
Quote from: mx1000 on October 31, 2013, 01:53:55 PM
Isn't it necessary to have expert level precision in this ?
So that the Toroidal coil is almost exact (99%) ?
Also what you expect to find or is this just peek and poke ?
Sincerely.
Somewhat; but I do figure nature isn't a 99% perfect engineer.
What I was looking for was anomalies; but given that I'm working with stuff engineered on not the magnetic flow, but electron flow, maybe it's impossible;
99% is pretty easy to do... 1% deviation in the frequency though will result in beats... But yes, if every part was 100% perfect, then I would have less losses. Each coil addition resulted in less apparent power; and occasionally I would switch back to a sine wave, and if I got near similar power out, it was definatly a good balance, a square wave will trigger near harmonic frequencies better than a sine wave. At the end, the power output from a sine wave was quite a percentage less than a square wave input.
I got a little sidetracked tracking non anomalous behavior; and other than being able to create a DC bias I've not found anything specifically; other than these coils self induct much better than any other geometry. (closer to a K of 1)
So other than recording the notes along the way; I'd love input from others on how to discover anomolies :)
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Additional note that I should include again; a lower resistance (impedance?) load will take more of the energy and leave less for the remaining circuits.
Резонанснo
Tinkering with resonance (http://youtu.be/J7ymt5HrgVU)
The tiny coils are resonsant at 3Mhz without a ferous core.
I was considering toploading my coils.... and tried adding some ball bearings; covering the wire end with insulation....
I also started attaching croc-clips so the wire goes into the middle of them instead of just across leaving the pointy wire sticking into air, and improved behavior a slight amount I think.
for each active coil, it is possible to add another coil stacked on the first. But the distance of 1 coil will not be close enough to get a good voltage without a active coil between. Active coils have a active current path or an active load. They can be grounded on one side and use the load on the other back to ground, or separate attached to different polarities of load to a common ground. If an intervening coil loses its load, the others stacked on top become inactive (FAR out of resonance). maybe that's wrong...
was adding as 'extra-coils' to the topload....
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tesla/coloradonotes/coloradonotes04.htm
these have been far easier to experiment with resonance than any other coils; for peer induction, stacking works well in a consolidated space, and can be put on a spindle or rod to keep better alignment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2oSxTWCIUc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2oSxTWCIUc)
So continued experimentation, and seeing a effective core applied to the lynx wind LJL (?) as a closed loop around the outside of a short arc of the coil, I applied that idea, and built up a system that would induct higher voltage than the source at a high enough frequency that a short across an incandescent load worked.
I later applied the mazzilli to a standard 120-25V (1:5) transformer. With just about any capacitance it triggers oscillation at 50-60hz. So the design of the magnetic characteristics and its inductances must be such that the field collapses in time; I got power output, but it was VERY flickery. I was able to put it across a bridge rectifier into a cap and draw more of a DC current and get a stable output.
Inbetween, I removed the core and was able to get the system to work the same, but at a slightly higher voltage, and higher frequency.
But I find that adding and subtracting loads adds and removes amps appropriately. Almost to the point that the oscillator itself consumes only 10mA.
I can definatly see improving the number of turns (maybe wind it with 12x the filaments) to get a appreciable voltage out from the same sort of current. But it is still power, if that voltage is tapped can only draw a small load off of it. Like say 1000 LEDs in series, they only require 20mA, but use some voltage.
Above that another coil to pickup stray field begins to influence the primary coil's resonance. Earlier observations at low voltage high frequency, that the target inductance affected the resonant frequency more than the driving inductance; being of similar inductance, (60uH and 72uH) they aren't dissimilar enough to cause a significant disbalance.
I tried adding various idler loops... that is just a loop that is resonant with the rest... but that only seemed to consume power, being in essence just a larger weight to have to swing, rather than being collaborative... that is a larger weight to have to change direction of.
I dunno I've tried to consider when the induction happens... it's both as the current rises and falls, and the opposing current is opposite in greatest effect; although that's not really true. If the ground is connected on the same side of the positive signal, no output registers; although there should be a negative potential formed at the other end....
So then I remove the core; then I removed the idea of being two separate coils being grounded, and shorted the ends that were grounded, and still get a good differential. This winding is a caduceus.... it goes clockwise to the top and clockwise back to the bottom... although compressed; so the current flowing in these windings is in opposite directions, which is least issue for their own fields; since they want to induce a current in near windings in that direction direction the current is already going (except it's kind of a messy winding so I'm not sure that really counts)
... but it's not caduceus because it's not spread/dialated, it's just a winding in one direction to the end, and back in the opposite direction on a second layer; only every winding is passed through every other winding.
But this is really only one dimensional...
manipulating the shape of the pickup coil has little effect... although modifies the frequency slightly.
So I have an oscillation; even if the rodin makes a 'vortex' this vortex collapses at each cycle. a DC vortex would ... nevermind...
So, the field builds, being built from a current flowing through a wire. A coil's caracteristic is also to impart a momentum to the flow... but err anyway, so the current flows, a field builds, and is a differential(hmm delta) per point in space, and crosses other conductors. It's only the (expanding) and (contracting) fields from the source ... more Amps per meter yields more tesla, or flux ... that's more electrons moving for a larger composite field? That's more electrons aligned in a similar direction to build a composite field?
... but more ..
Also there is resonance, and there is resonance... is there a significance to 8 octaves? maybe it's 9 octaves... I should compute that when I fix the info on the video...
even if there is a resonance to the fields of the nuclear fields of the atom, that's just going to be the same up/down. The field can be sustained by continuing to supply amps. But if you Stop the amps, and allow the field to collapse, the action there imparts motion to electrons in near conductors, still in the opposite direction, but in its own conductor in the same direction; being a momentum of sorts... so is it the stopping of the mass of the electron part what pulls the field back down?
There's lots of ways to model magnetism with analogies, but none of them really are right.... a whole lot of words to explain nothing :(
(added pictures... frequency progression, as load capacitor charges)
state 1; some 5Mhz frequency.
state 2; combined composite out target low frequency and high 5Mhz frequency
state 3; 240Khz frequency, higher power output. 20x frequency difference (20.8333 if use 240 instead of 250, but the top end was inexact, but was 5.0(8?)Mhz... so maybe 21x? probably not as low as 18x... which would be a 3, 3, 2, instead of 2*2*5(20)
Looks like your spending alot of time and working it out, very commendable and thanks for sharing.
My day job is very demanding at the moment so not alot of time to spend doing actual experiments for now, but it gives me time to think.
If we look at a simple transformer step up, step down it doesnt matter, look at how ac pulses each side of the primary, the winding direction from each side.
Ac works with the bemf of a coil, but there is a drawback it changes the polarity of the core.
Dont know if youve seen this
This is a coil powered with 12v ac then froze, there is a field besides the magnetic
Quote from: Dave45 on November 16, 2013, 07:44:43 AM
Looks like your spending alot of time and working it out, very commendable and thanks for sharing.
My day job is very demanding at the moment so not alot of time to spend doing actual experiments for now, but it gives me time to think.
If we look at a simple transformer step up, step down it doesnt matter, look at how ac pulses each side of the primary, the winding direction from each side.
Ac works with the bemf of a coil, but there is a drawback it changes the polarity of the core.
Truth be known, I have 2 free months after being laid off and paid a severance.
AC coil as in air conditioning? :) No that is interesting, and that was where a thought had wandered to be a refrigerator; converting heat to electricity... not just having a heat, but driving and therefore being a refrigerator, which probably goes back to a tesla patent someone had mentioned....
Im sorry I meant alternating current :)
Sorry to hear about your work hope it picks up
Two toroids with a cw coil on one and ccw on the other in close proximity should work together catching each other's bemf field without changing the polarity of their perspective cores.
Thats what Im winding now :) one thing Iv found it doesnt always work the way we envision it.
Hope to give you some idea's, I believe this is how the TPU worked, we will see
Im going to step up on one and step down on the other, voltage from one current from the other.
I like your coil designs Iv been playing with spoked coils or rodin type coils as well.
I wonder if we ran the current through the spoked coils first then into the driver circuit would the spoke coils oscillate on the backside of the driver.
I have 2 'inner' coils in this one.
The red rope winding is 'the new winding'
The RedGreen is an inner of the new winding, it's a inner-core coil.
The white/blue/red coil in the center is just inner coil.
New winding, is 31 feet (plus a little for padding), 24 filaments of 28GA wire.
I connected 2 sets 12 filaments in series.
On the 6" diameter windings, one series filament measures inductance of 8.(1?)mH and 30.(2?)mH together.
The inner-core coil is 70uH.
When open the new winding is stealing almost all of the signal from the inner red/green core! HELP!
The complexity of the coils is starting to require fore-knowledge of design.
Inner-core coil, driving; new winding picks up +/- 700V resonance at about 4Khz.
new winding driving had issues; had to increase the power supply inductance; used a ignition coil secondary for the inductance, and smoothed out the drive. .. I dunno I oscillated, not at a super high voltage I guess...
so I reverted the power inductance since that was much too much for the other coils to be in the mazilli driver.
Maybe I should just jump to now.
I put the configuration back; I ended up having to use a ferrite core, because the resonant frequency difference is so very large.... when I drive the inner coil (white winding only, 24 turns total), I induce a high voltage in the new winding. But it doesn't behave the same as before... I can't get a usable differential from it... that is I can't ground the clockwise side and the counter clockwise of the other and get a +/- delta on it... the ends are in-phase. I still pickup some voltage on the inner-core coil, but not enuogh to drive the LED load. Even leaving the new winding totally open, I cannot get enough drive on the inner-core coil; what I do get is strong ozone from the ends of the open winding; so I'm getting a huge power loss there apparently.
So; the new winding has destroyed the ability to use the prior configuration.
There is quite a current of high voltage also, got some pretty good arcs through the tips of my fingers accidentally brushing a ground.
So... this doesn't really answer my questions
1) is it better to drive with an inner-core coil or an inner coil; really either is sufficient (?)
but, then I can't also use the inner coil to drive the new winding and the inner-core coil... So I think this is where the intersection should be I guess.
----------------------------------------
To go back to akula's device....
A, a driven coil at X frequency, inside a pickup coil... Since the inductance of the secondary becomes the significant resonant point with the mazilli, it's the frequency of the secondary, which is inside the load coil.
B, a driven coil at 3X frequency, at a higher voltage potential (tesla tower), is outside of the load coil. These two intersect on the pickup coil.
-------------------
This would mean... a inner coil (maybe an outer coil; not outer-core; above/below?) of 12 turns, which excites an outer-core winding of high inductance
around the inner coil put another coil that has the voltage pickup on the outside, and 1 or 2 inner-core coils...
But then frequency becomes the problem... seems like coils have a frequency with or without capacitance, that adding capacitance just reduces.
New coil; video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7z_QhLDDQk
Two seperate coils are reversable without opening them.
Originally the thin rope winding was on the outside, but tinkering I ended up with it on the inside.. then reversed it back out, and spread out the inner... and the ends were soldered together... actually becuase of the knotting of the coil, it's impossible to slip one through the other even if the ends were open.
I'm pretty sure if 3 coils were all interwound, they would all be interchangeable in position.
Hmm... I guess I never included schematics here...
I have falstad sim...
falstad sim (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/#%24+1+2.5000000000000004E-7+17.532943091211475+53+12.0+50%0Ag+480+384+480+400+0%0Af+432+128+480+128+0+3.0%0Af+432+288+480+288+0+3.0%0Ad+432+192+480+192+1+0.805904783%0Aw+432+160+432+192+0%0Ad+432+224+480+224+1+0.805904783%0Aw+480+224+512+224+0%0Aw+512+224+512+112+0%0Aw+480+112+512+112+0%0Aw+480+272+496+272+0%0Aw+480+192+496+192+0%0Aw+496+272+496+192+0%0Ar+352+80+352+128+0+10000.0%0Ar+384+128+384+160+0+10000.0%0Ar+352+288+352+256+0+10000.0%0Ar+384+288+384+320+0+10000.0%0Aw+352+288+384+288+0%0Aw+384+288+432+288+0%0Aw+352+128+384+128+0%0Aw+384+128+432+128+0%0Ag+384+160+384+192+0%0Ag+384+352+384+384+0%0Aw+208+96+208+256+0%0Aw+208+96+208+64+0%0Aw+352+64+352+80+0%0Al+272+48+336+48+0+0.064+0.019500398570151792%0Al+608+96+608+176+0+0.008+-0.21628636078804717%0Al+608+240+608+304+0+0.008+-0.19678596221789546%0Ac+544+160+544+224+0+1.0E-6+70.88971662714567%0Aw+608+96+544+96+0%0Aw+544+304+608+304+0%0Aw+608+240+608+208+0%0Aw+608+176+608+208+0%0Aw+608+208+656+208+0%0Aw+656+208+656+48+0%0Aw+656+48+336+48+0%0Aw+272+48+208+48+0%0Aw+208+48+208+64+0%0Aw+496+272+544+272+0%0Aw+544+272+544+304+0%0Aw+544+272+544+224+0%0Aw+512+112+544+112+0%0Aw+544+96+544+112+0%0Aw+544+112+544+160+0%0Aw+384+320+384+352+0%0Aw+480+144+528+144+0%0Aw+528+144+528+304+0%0Aw+480+304+480+368+0%0Aw+480+384+480+368+0%0As+480+304+528+304+0+0+false%0As+560+352+512+352+0+1+false%0Ag+512+384+512+400+0%0Aw+512+384+512+352+0%0Aw+544+96+560+96+0%0Aw+560+96+560+352+0%0Aw+432+224+432+240+0%0Aw+320+256+352+256+0%0Aw+224+256+208+256+0%0Aw+384+240+432+240+0%0Aw+384+256+384+240+0%0Aw+384+272+384+288+0%0AR+144+96+112+96+0+0+40.0+24.0+0.0+0.0+0.5%0Aw+144+96+208+96+0%0Aw+384+256+384+272+0%0Aw+352+64+304+64+0%0Aw+288+64+208+64+0%0Aw+288+64+304+64+0%0Aw+320+256+224+256+0%0Aw+432+160+432+128+0%0A162+656+288+656+336+1+85.0+1.0+0.0+0.0%0Ag+656+336+656+352+0%0Aw+608+304+640+304+0%0Aw+640+304+640+288+0%0Aw+640+288+656+288+0%0A162+704+112+704+176+1+85.0+1.0+0.0+0.0%0Ag+704+176+704+192+0%0Aw+704+112+704+96+0%0Aw+704+96+608+96+0%0Ao+28+64+1+163+80.0+9.765625E-5+0+-1%0Ao+61+64+1+35+5.0+9.765625E-5+1+-1%0Ao+69+64+1+35+2.5+9.765625E-5+2+-1%0Ao+74+64+1+35+10.0+9.765625E-5+3+-1%0Ao+34+64+0+35+80.0+0.2+4+-1%0A)
Playing with vortex bottles... two 2 liter bottles with their caps joined.
1) the orifice of the interface should be smooth and curving
2) (probably) depending on the viscosity and specific gravity (density) of the substances the size of the orifice needs to be large enough to counteract the weight against the surface tension... (oh I guess it's just surface tension?) Other than it also needs to flow one into the other.
It's an interchange of two different mediums. Probably with a similar rotational structure...
With a small orifice. You must impart a circular motion to the water. This causes a higher pressure on the outside and a lower pressure on the inside, allowing the low density fluid to go up ... If the pressure exchange can become constant, there will be a surface tension wall on the water around the inner conduit of air. As long as the circular motion in the top bottle can be maintained, the exchange of water on top and air on bottom will continue. At a point, the votex collapses internally, and bubbles (enclosed pockets of air with a water suface on all side) begin to form and get pushed up the tube (pulled? by the vacuum no the top?) So it starts frothing.
Back to electronics...
The spinning motion of the water reminds me of a magnetic field, evacuating a space to allow electrostatic transfer the other direction.
1) To have a motion, the vortex must open first?
2) Because of a motion a vortex forms.
1) inertia says a particle in motion remains in motion.. so its vortex must also remain until stopped. its vortex will interact with other vortexes that also exist, unless the mass of induction is equal.
The inner vortex must open. It can be non continuous... that is in a bubble/ pinches off from others... so the smallest possible vortex form is...? Cavitation, low pressure toroidal rings that self propel? (nano manufacturing, Mark LeClaire ? close)
the higher the inducted field, the less resistance to current flow; higher current flow causes higher heat...
Still doesn't lend to a good idea of how induction forms....
Other than the first induction is in the same direction in near windings...
Let's suppose that magnetic fields flow from the positive, and static fields from the negative....
THe closing induction... where flow is reducing, causes an inversed flow in the other? Does it matter? Can the secondary be conditioned so it will result in an induction the other way; as long as it is allowed to flow? Other than attraction/repulsion of near windings...
So... along the way of this thread, I went back and read some comments... 'what am I tryig to do? poking and proding?' well.. LOOK... this coil is like your grandfathers solenoid or pancake coils.... unless you consider a single loop a coil.
So this is what I'm trying to do now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBjBuP0oPbc&list=PLYup1NqKR5BOCojQjg21gIOEiOUxDlM5A&index=1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBjBuP0oPbc&list=PLYup1NqKR5BOCojQjg21gIOEiOUxDlM5A&index=1)
I recorded this video to wind toroflux toys using like plastic yard trimmer line... something you can fiddle with while there's nothing else to do.
It makes for a very interesting toy that you can put over things and it form fits...
it's like a chinese finger cuff - only totaly the opposite because it never binds. Hooray for rotation and curvature.
I put that at the top of the playlist of this path I went on about these coils....
I'm really sad I couldn't just get anyone else to jump on the train with me... these are incredibly simple coils that are entirely functional in their simplest forms.
It's a dozen turns a few meters of wire... you can wind a several in 15 minutes - since I did that, while talking about it a lot... that I could have done a lot more.
What I was doing?
Taking the principles of the abha/rodin coils and finding common factors and reducing the equations to simplest terms.
I did do it... the end was actually quite pleasant
--- What am I doing? WHat are we all doing here? Might I refer you to the website address?
What can I do in redoing what EVERYONE else did...
what can they get by doing what one else did?
Please fill up this page to overflow the overly large images.
Though what really brings all this back is this thing I starting playing with
https://d3x0r.github.io/MarchingTetrahedra/ (https://d3x0r.github.io/MarchingTetrahedra/)
which became
https://d3x0r.github.io/IsoSurface-MultiTexture/ (https://d3x0r.github.io/IsoSurface-MultiTexture/)
Which are both ways of determining what 'things' look like...
After I had just a cloud of points that defined things, I sort of wanted to make them interact... but they're at their core just points, so I should be able to easily use those instead of the faces and geometry get are produced by those points...
Like the forms that get generated are merely the shadows on the wall....
So I started implementing quaternions
https://d3x0r.github.io/STFRPhysics/3d/index.html (https://d3x0r.github.io/STFRPhysics/3d/index.html)
But was disatsified with their limitations, and took the full dive into angle-angle-angle ( [size=78%]https://github.com/d3x0r/STFRPhysics/blob/master/Curvature.md (https://github.com/d3x0r/STFRPhysics/blob/master/Curvature.md)[/size] )
really arc-arc-arc, and extended the imaginary plane to it's actual source.
Turns out it works really nicely; but I ran into some shapes that fell out when dealing with quaternions in their natural frame that were inobvious...Show Basis Map: [/size]
option shows the grid x/y/z for the curvatures around the x/y and z axels... and there's a scaling factor that takes the linear rotations and results with the proper distance in rectangular space for that coordinate...
Working in this sort of skewed space, the translations look linear/circular/rectangular ... and actually mostly linear in the linear space ... especially at very high curvatures (or delta angles... like this system can account for a thing that spin 15.3 times per tick... )
Most of the math systems out there seem to be lacking this conversion/scalar... but then again, when it IS applied, then the natural geometry that falls out would represent a magnet (2 magnets) with field that want to align their relative curvature to each other... minimizing the difference...
and the angles needed at various positions vary...
And anyone PLEASE explain to me
https://youtu.be/04-kWptAiV8?t=438
This is AIR COREs...
I know... I have a bunch of stuff scattered all around, it REALLY isn't that much, which is why I'm confused by the confusino of the mess... can you not just follow 2 wires?
How does the pulse NEVER go negative? Where does it go? it's really just an oscillation above 0 DC....
look
LoadA - toroid coil - load B
(air gap)
toroid coil
|
oscillator
the bi-filar coils are connected in series, with that middle tap being ground, and you get positive and negative potential on the other side. ...
after you get the system started you can remove the ground, but initially you need some free source of electrons to have some motion in the system.
Quote from: d3x0r on July 10, 2020, 07:57:54 PM
And anyone PLEASE explain to me
https://youtu.be/04-kWptAiV8?t=438 (https://youtu.be/04-kWptAiV8?t=438)
This is AIR COREs...
I know... I have a bunch of stuff scattered all around, it REALLY isn't that much, which is why I'm confused by the confusino of the mess... can you not just follow 2 wires?
How does the pulse NEVER go negative? Where does it go? it's really just an oscillation above 0 DC....
look
LoadA - toroid coil - load B
(air gap)
toroid coil
|
oscillator
the bi-filar coils are connected in series, with that middle tap being ground, and you get positive and negative potential on the other side. ...
after you get the system started you can remove the ground, but initially you need some free source of electrons to have some motion in the system.
Are you using an AV plug? I believe that will keep things unidirectional.
Didn't watch the whole thing, but a schematic would be helpful.
Bob
Yes, there is an AV plug on the one side... the other side was a capacitor which the other side is to ground, so there's no direct conduction path to ground...
the AV plug is across a sizable cap... it sort of determines the amount of power availalble
Sorry I'm confusing setups I did try a variety of setups..
cap - avplug - coil - LED load - ground
(in parallel with cap) incandescnet bulb
nope other setup was basically the same thing, but A and B on the sides of the coil are swapped... (there is a grounding point in the middle, if there's not enough free electrons flowing, loads will be dimmer than they should be (once the system starts, there's capacity in the magnetic field and capacitors that need to be filled... once there is that, I don't think the ground is required; the electrons shouldn't be consumed in their reactions to generate like light ... or even drive a motor...
And I didn't get a chance to record it - I don't know how to 'let the air out of the tires' so to speak....
I was having problems getting the ends to be +/- so I grounded the other end, and they started oscillating right, reconnected the load,
got much more output, disconnected the ground and everything was still the same
turned off all the power and started again and ... the good state; so I don't know
how to provide 'if you see this, maybe you want to try this...'
For the electrical engineers... If I count the turns, and count the radius, and get an LC, and measure that LC for a coil to be the same, the coil IS the same as any other coil of similar LC?
Then how would anyone ever know the difference. This is NOT tough; and there is no trickery in the jump cuts. No video I make and post or promote has ads or is expecting some personal gain from you watching it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIiA7TWzmY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuIiA7TWzmY)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUZyoQwoG9c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUZyoQwoG9c)
J
Nevermind; I did find my error.