Some of you will not like this, but that's the way it is sometimes. We all have opinions.
http://revolution-green.com/hho-water-powered-madness/
Keep up the experimenting, it all adds knowledge
Kind Regards
Mark
Mark
seems the rent is do....[go daddy showing up here with a domain forsale sign]
I'll take the liberty of reproducing some text from Mark's website here. In this conversation with "Ben", Mark's comments are in RED:
Quote
He said the technology is relatively simple, based on existing systems that have been around since the 1980s, but they have filed for a patent on the ignition system. They use HHO to start up the system, but after that, they switch to a water mist to become the only fuel source — so they are running only on water, nothing else. The carburetor is highly modified. Their process will use about three quarts of water to do what one gallon of gasoline usually accomplishes (3/4 the "fuel", when water is used as fuel).
No existing system ever worked or had been third party verified. Can they demonstrate the BTU or calorific values in comparing gasoline with water? IE BTU of a gallon of Gasoline is 125,000 BTU's (US Gallon) I can assure you teh Hydrogen energy level out of three quarts of water is way lower than this, so where does the energy come from?
He said the proof of concept system they will be demonstrating isn't very stable yet. It only runs for a few minutes before it begins to sputter due to improper timing of the firing. The longest they've ever had it running is about ten minutes. He said they are making modifications to the magneto system so they can adjust the firing to 5 to 10 degrees past top dead center, instead of a few degrees before top dead center — something they expect to have installed in the next few hours.
There is another very logical reason why it stops, it runs out any residue gas or fuel, and the energy source extracted from the water(hydrogen ) is not enough to sustain it)
It seems they don't have a lot of redundancy in their prototypes, so I would guess that it is possible that their only working system could be in a state of not working by the time the demo rolls around. I highly recommend to them that they leave their working design alone and only modify a new system with their imagined improvements. With people driving and flying in to see this thing, they shouldn't risk the demo not working by tinkering with the only presently working system.
Good advice
I asked how many working prototypes they have, and he said "zero." The "proof of concept" is not a complete, functioning system, but merely demonstrates the principle of running on water — for a few minutes.
Run for the hills, leave your wallets home
I'm 200 miles from the demonstration site and I would gladly attend subject to my usual contract requirements: If I do NOT see what is promised, for any reason other than my own failure to appear, the PENALTY CLAUSE kicks in and I get heavily compensated for wasting my time.
!
thx for the info
What are you're terms for "observing/vetting " again??
Chet
Quote from: ramset on March 14, 2014, 02:51:13 PM
!
thx for the info
Chet
It's really not my fault that the forum's software is not WYSIWYG.
Of course not
It Twas a rare opportunity ![once in a life time probably]
WHat are your terms again for visits
thx
Chet
Quote from: ramset on March 14, 2014, 03:02:03 PM
Of course not
It Twas a rare opportunity ![once in a life time probably]
WHat are your terms again for visits
thx
Chet
You aren't going to like them.
My basic rate is 350 USD per day, plus per diem expenses like travel, meals and lodging, with one day's rate in advance. I am told that this is very cheap. Purchase of necessary supplies for testing, if I don't have them with me, will be negotiated with the claimant. If travel out-of-state is involved there is a three-day minimum, no matter the actual minimum time spent. And I don't fly on commercial airliners, and I do bring my dog Maggie. The penalty clause is this: If for _any_ reason other than my own failure to appear for the demo, I do not get to see what is promised up front, like if the motor is broken that day, or needs a new part, or just won't run for as long as the claimant says beforehand, or even if God decides to flood out the venue or the claimant dies of a stroke or something, the penalty kicks in: I get the three day minimum plus an additional 500 dollars. Obviously this is designed to deter the frivolous fraudsters who give people like Sterling Allen the runaround, as has happened so many times. Anyone who needs my services or who desires to prove something legit to me will happily accept the penalty clause because they know they won't cause it to be invoked. The fraudsters and fakers will not bother with me if they know they will be penalized for screwing with me.
What you get will be a careful and honest evaluation including a written report, and a video if permitted by the claimant. I prefer to operate completely in the open source philosophy so I am loathe to sign NDAs, but I will do so if the claimant absolutely requires it, upon receiving the advance day's rate payment and after the check clears the bank.
ETA: Payments in gold bullion or cash are of course preferred.
Unfortunately I just found out about this demo this afternoon, and I already have commitments for tomorrow, the day of the demo. For me to get to Houston tomorrow by the time of the demonstration just isn't possible, sorry.
Tinsel
thx for the responce.
You are correct a very good deal indeed !
I could not imagine that the quality of the report as well as the scrutiny
would be anything less than top shelf.
Good to know.
Thx
Chet
Hi Ramset
rent is paid, its not actually my site I just write there. (Sterling missed his chance to shut it down)Sorry you can not make it TK...I was going to kick in for that trip.
Kind Regards
Mark
Well, it's almost 6PM Central Time, Saturday 15 March ......
Houston, have we got a problem..... ?
No reports yet?
An interesting read Mark,but i think we all know the outcome of this one. However,there are some incorrect statements being made,or maybe just a lack of understanding about water and HHO.
May last 6 month's(along with many years on and off),have been testing and exploring the effects of HHO on I.C.E's. I see some myth's apon myth's starting to emerge. One of these is the oil becoming contaminated with water. This will only become fact if the engine is worn-E.G,rings are shot.Once an engine is up to running temp,any water within the crankcase is evaporated away,out through the breather(PCV valve).Im sure many of you have started a car up first thing on a cold morning,and seen water pumping out the exaust-so why isnt it in the oil ?.
Here is another statement from TK that i do not agree with,and have found to be incorrect,and this is one made by many.
Quote TK: The "hho" will be _imploding_ rather than exploding; the timing everyone is using is insufficiently advanced, as they are finding out. Consider this idealized 4-cycle: Piston at TDC. Intake valve opens, the stoichiometric HHO from the non-leaking electrolyzer is drawn in as piston descends, valve closes at BDC. Piston goes up on compression stroke with valves closed. If the HHO doesn't detonate from the compression and residual heat, it winds up compressed with piston at TDC. The piston continues past TDC and if the spark is fired now (retarded spark)... this will actually create a vacuum and slow the engine down.
While i agree that there is some vacume created once reformation has taken place,it is no where near the expansion force created apon igniting the HHO. To test this,simply fill a balloon with HHO,and ignite it-dose the balloon blow to pieces,or contract back to a balloon with a couple of drops of water in it ?. Another test i conducted,was to take a 1 inch piece of PVC pipe about a foot long,and place a cap at one end with a spark plug fixed in it. This also had a small hole in the side of the pipe,so as HHO could be pumped into the pipe. I then placed a pingpong ball down into the pipe,so as it was about an inch away from the spark plug. Then HHO was pumped into the cavity between the ball and spark plug/end cap.Enough HHO was pumped into the cavity so as to remove all the ambient air that may have been in there. We then create a spark via the spark plug,and the pingpong ball shoot's out of the pipe. If a vacume was created when the HHO was ignited,the ball should not have come shooting out of the pipe.
I have also found that there is an EMP created when contained HHO is ignited-this is something very few have experimented in,and this energy can also be captured and used.Test carried out have shown quite clearly that this is true. 1 simple test is this-take an old computer that work's(i do not recomend using your good CPU),and a monitor(so as you can watch). Start the CPU so as your desktop comes up.Now fill a balloon with HHO,and place it near the CPU (place a non metalic barrier between CPU and Balloon to stop any dammage) Now ignite the HHO in the balloon-i guarantee the CPU will restart. If a balloon of HHO is ignited during night(or darkness),a bright purple/blue glow can be seen after the explosion-what is this ?. An I.C.E also gives of some sort of electrical interference when running only on HHO-makes any digital meter placed near the engine go balistic-numbers and crap come up every where on the meter.
Some say water is an ash,and in some sence that is true-but it is an ash like no other.Here we can burn a piece of firewood,which turns to charcoal,then to ash and back to a piece of firewood-so as it can be used over and over again. There is so much more to !water as a fuel! than we have cared to look at.
Tinman, there is indeed a sharp shockwave produced by the "HHO" implosion. Don't mistake this for expanding gases that can drive an engine. Also.... if you have _any_ residual gas or your "HHO" isn't quite stoichiometric, the residual gas can expand briefly.
You might not know this, but an early way of producing a nice vacuum in a sealed glass tube was to electrolyze a little water in the tube before sealing it, then after sealing, igniting the "HHO" with a little spark from some internal electrodes. The glass doesn't break if you do it right and you have a fairly good vacuum left behind.
You've got some experience with engines... so do I. I hold an FAA Aviation Airframe and Powerplant Maintenance Technician's license and I have years of experience diagnosing, repairing and overhauling aircraft piston engines, everything from 2 cylinder Franklins to 28 cylinder P&W 4360s. I was in charge of operating the new engine test cells at two major US overhaul facilities and for some years no newly overhauled engine left the plants unless I signed off on it. Most of these are aircooled, some use water injection. I also have considerable experience with watercooled and aircooled automobile engines and believe me, if you have enough water in the oil it will not boil away, you will have chocolate milk oil. This is usually caused by cracks in the water channels that allow water into the crankcase, though, so it is continually replaced while running the engine.
All of that notwithstanding.... it's now evening in Texas. Where is the report of the demonstration? Does anyone know anything?
@TinMan
Thank you
Chet
Quote from: TinselKoala on March 15, 2014, 09:36:35 PM
Tinman, there is indeed a sharp shockwave produced by the "HHO" implosion. Don't mistake this for expanding gases that can drive an engine. Also.... if you have _any_ residual gas or your "HHO" isn't quite stoichiometric, the residual gas can expand briefly.
You might not know this, but an early way of producing a nice vacuum in a sealed glass tube was to electrolyze a little water in the tube before sealing it, then after sealing, igniting the "HHO" with a little spark from some internal electrodes. The glass doesn't break if you do it right and you have a fairly good vacuum left behind.
You've got some experience with engines... so do I. I hold an FAA Aviation Airframe and Powerplant Maintenance Technician's license and I have years of experience diagnosing, repairing and overhauling aircraft piston engines, everything from 2 cylinder Franklins to 28 cylinder P&W 4360s. I was in charge of operating the new engine test cells at two major US overhaul facilities and for some years no newly overhauled engine left the plants unless I signed off on it. Most of these are aircooled, some use water injection. I also have considerable experience with watercooled and aircooled automobile engines and believe me, if you have enough water in the oil it will not boil away, you will have chocolate milk oil. This is usually caused by cracks in the water channels that allow water into the crankcase, though, so it is continually replaced while running the engine.
TK
Having a crack in the water jacket ,is far different than running your engine on HHO.There simply isnt enough water produced from the recombination of HHO to contaminate the oil in the engine. I have had a 6.5hp engine running with a fogger unit installed for over 100 hour's now,and the oil is spotless-no sign of water in the oil. The fogger unit injects more water vapour into the engine,than HHO would ever produce. This was the very reason for this fogger setup-to see how much water is needed to contaminate the oil.This unit has water dripping out of the exaust,and still no oil contamination. An ICE can handle a lot more water than most think.
In regards to the implosion-i know that one take's place,but it follows an explosion,and has very little force as far as hindering the running of the I.C.E-all my test have shown this to be correct. We must also remember that when running an I.C.E on HHO,we would normally have ambiant air entering the engine aswell. This prolongs the HHO burn,and also allow's for a greater expansion of gasses-this is why the timing can be set at around 2 to 4 deg ATDC-this is what i have found to be best.
Here is a video which clearly shows the expansion when HHO is ignited. I have also added some frame by frame pictures,that show's the expansion(explosion) taking place when pure HHO is ignited. You will note there is no orange flames in the fram by frame shot's,and this is because it is pure HHO being burnt.\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOERuckdXSY
Brad,
very well done, it shows quite a large displacement.
You could calculate the volume of displacement for the volume of gas very easily with your setup (ASTP) and would be a good ref: in the future.
If you could give me the inside diameter of the tube and the distance of displacement, also the height of gas at the top so as to calculate the volume of gas before ignition.
@TK, don't give anybody ideas that they can do what you suggest with a glass tube, very very dangerous, to be right you use a rubber ball non return valve, and yes you can get some very impressive vacuums for making electron tubes.
regards
Mike 8)
Quote from: tinman on March 16, 2014, 12:04:45 AM
TK
Having a crack in the water jacket ,is far different than running your engine on HHO.There simply isnt enough water produced from the recombination of HHO to contaminate the oil in the engine. I have had a 6.5hp engine running with a fogger unit installed for over 100 hour's now,and the oil is spotless-no sign of water in the oil.
Is the exhaust sealed like Gary Hendershot mentioned? Is the engine _running on the water mist_ ?
QuoteThe fogger unit injects more water vapour into the engine,than HHO would ever produce. This was the very reason for this fogger setup-to see how much water is needed to contaminate the oil.This unit has water dripping out of the exaust,and still no oil contamination. An ICE can handle a lot more water than most think.
Try plugging up the exhaust and running _only_ on water mist, like Gary was talking about.
Quote
In regards to the implosion-i know that one take's place,but it follows an explosion,and has very little force as far as hindering the running of the I.C.E-all my test have shown this to be correct. We must also remember that when running an I.C.E on HHO,we would normally have ambiant air entering the engine aswell.
That's right, thank you for acknowledging that.... and you do realise that is NOT what I was talking about, don't you? Please look up "stoichiometric" and note that I was, and am, talking about having ONLY the gases from electrolysis, in correct proportions, without water vapor from hot electrolysis cells, in the cylinder.
QuoteThis prolongs the HHO burn,and also allow's for a greater expansion of gasses-this is why the timing can be set at around 2 to 4 deg ATDC-this is what i have found to be best.
That's right, and that is exactly how water mist injection is used in big engines, as I have explained. This is NOT RUNNING ON WATER, nor is it trying to run an ICE on electrolysis HHO alone, which is what I thought we were talking about.
Your experiment is nice: it shows that gases expand when heated. It does not disprove my points. Where is your dryer? Where is the assurance in your experiment that there is only H and O in your combustion chamber? When you fire the spark the product initially is high-pressure water vapor that you could call steam, which indeed expands and does so with a fast and hard shock. Once the rapid expansion-- and cooling and condensing --- happens there is a vacuum left behind. But you can't get enough H and O into a cylinder to produce much real power unless you compress it, either by forcing it in under pressure or using the piston on a compression stroke to do it or both. What happens when you compress H and O in a hot cylinder?
You are trying to run your engine on the expansion of steam, and you would probably have better luck if you used the H and O that you are generating to make steam outside the cylinder and run it into an ordinary steam engine with proper valvulation.
It seems to me that you and many other engineers want to be able to run the ICE on either HHO or expanding-gas fuels interchangeably. They wind up using advanced sparks like you are doing because the thing simply will not run _on regular fuel_ or with residual expanding gases when timed for suction running.
But whatever. I encourage you to continue experimenting, just don't blow yourself up.
The real issue is whether or not you can run on water mist alone, as the claimants who were supposed to have their demonstration yesterday have claimed. I don't think that you can do that. Can you?
Has there been any news from Houston?
(Sorry, that should read "retarded sparks" up above there in that last bit. )
But Yes ... Houston DOES have a problem, and now you can see fully well why there should be a penalty clause.
http://pesn.com/2014/03/12/9602454_G-G-Power-Generation-Systems_Announces_Water-Fuel-Demo/ (http://pesn.com/2014/03/12/9602454_G-G-Power-Generation-Systems_Announces_Water-Fuel-Demo/)
QuoteMarch 16, 2014; 5 pm Mountain
I spoke with Ben just now. He said that they ran into mechanical problems and were not able to give a successful demonstration. They scrambled and tried to get a new generator to run, but it was larger than the one they had been using, so it only ran for a few seconds on the water mist (flow rate wasn't adequate) -- not long enough to be convincing.
Around 17 people showed up from around the U.S., including Alaska, and signed NDAs. He felt bad that they had gone through the time and expense of traveling to see their demo.
Ben expects to get his system running by next weekend, at which point he will shoot a private video to show those who have signed NDAs.
When I asked him if he wishes he had two generators operation for redundancy for the demo, he replied, "We are operating on a limited budget, and have to make do with what we have."
Awww.... he felt bad. Did he feel bad enough to recompense them for their useless wasted travel expenses?
Quote from: TinselKoala on March 17, 2014, 03:46:08 AM
(Sorry, that should read "retarded sparks" up above there in that last bit. )
But Yes ... Houston DOES have a problem, and now you can see fully well why there should be a penalty clause.
http://pesn.com/2014/03/12/9602454_G-G-Power-Generation-Systems_Announces_Water-Fuel-Demo/ (http://pesn.com/2014/03/12/9602454_G-G-Power-Generation-Systems_Announces_Water-Fuel-Demo/)
Awww.... he felt bad. Did he feel bad enough to recompense them for their useless wasted travel expenses?
This is yet another case where someone signs a non-disclosure and nothing gets disclosed to them for their trouble. Of course before they invited people to come see their demonstration they had not done something like video a successful run first. How about this: Water does not have any chemical fuel energy.
I'm really puzzled by this. It happens so often though. The claimants promise to show something at a demonstration then seem surprised at the actual demo that things aren't working properly. Over and over it happens. If they are doing it deliberately, how do they benefit from failing to demonstrate what they promised, to people who travel half-way around the world to see it? And if they are just naive, fooling themselves, then why in the world don't they actually do a _rehearsal_, for goodness sakes, to be sure that they don't fall on their faces, before hyping the demonstration and inviting people from all over the place? I just don't get it. We saw the same thing with the Ainslie demos, the Yildiz farce, Steorn _twice_ even, and I'm sure that the folks reading here can think of others. Who benefits from these promised demonstrations that don't come off? Why are the "honest" claimants who may actually believe they have something, so overconfident that they don't even do a rehearsal?
Here's the kind of piston engine that would probably work well on electrolysis gas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV9rhqXSnu0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV9rhqXSnu0)
Quote TK- The real issue is whether or not you can run on water mist alone, as the claimants who were supposed to have their demonstration yesterday have claimed. I don't think that you can do that. Can you?
Water mist no- plain old tap water-yes.
The hard truth is-a piston engine as such is simply not suited to run on HHO/ambiant air mix.The stroke is to long,and the explosion is to short. It takes a speacial engine design to run successfully on HHO/air mix.No crank as such,and no pistion as such. No HHO cell to produce the HHO-everything is done in the combustion chamber,and the only thing in the combustion chamber,is water. The engine design needed is very easy to build from off the shelf parts.There is no inlet and no exaust-as seen in the video i posted,it is not needed.
Oh P.S
Like you said TK,we all knew what was coming in regards to there water mist engine run.