Hi,
Because previous video about "Charging Battery with Reactive Power" was not good enough
I made new , better one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUISuI1jCg
All The Best,
Milan
Well, I can charge a 12 volt battery with a 2 volt supply. And I don't have nearly as much nice bench equipment as you do. So?
to TinselKoala
But I am fat guy and you are not :(
Quote from: TinselKoala on November 03, 2014, 09:03:30 AM
Well, I can charge a 12 volt battery with a 2 volt supply. And I don't have nearly as much nice bench equipment as you do. So?
YES!, that's right we can charge a battery in any volts as long as there is an instant sucking and pushing. :)
just be sure if it can handle the power. ;)
Guys, seems that you did not understand the point :)
You are talking about voltage step up conversion, but I do not ;)
Quote from: Mancha on November 04, 2014, 12:52:18 AM
Guys, seems that you did not understand the point :)
You are talking about voltage step up conversion, but I do not ;)
Mancha, in your hubris you do not care that some of us fail to have nice computer systems that are fast enough, so, we never (can) do youtube crap.
I have primitive old charging equipment that can charge to any voltage from any voltage. The most I have done is to charge 15.5 top charge from 1.55 top charge.
Is it possible to describe yo youtube crap in verbal English?
In other words, if you have something important to say, then, say it. Don't just tell us that we are to dumb to get it.
Thank you so much.
CANGAS 90
to Cangas:
It was not hubris, but could be crap as you said :)
My comment was addressed to TinesKoala and Tito. Not to everybody .
Because they are talking about voltage step up conversion.
What I am saying that power input 10 V x 1A to charge the 12V battery is more efficient than 13.5 or 15.5 x 1 A.
It means no step up or step down conversion, the same current from the source and the same current to battery.
I hope that it is more clear now.
Cangas:
You have to be kidding with your comments about "hubris" and "fast enough computer systems" and "crap." You are making it sound like Milan is doing a demo with a $50,000 digital storage oscilloscope and is enjoying making the rest of us look poor. Nothing could be further from the truth. You can buy a Pentium 4 box for $30 that will play YouTube videos just fine. An eight-year-old laptop will play YouTube videos just fine.
Meanwhile Milan makes videos in English which is not his first language and does just fine. You need to rethink your statements.
Milan:
If your clip was called "Charging 12V battery with 10V RMS AC Power Supply" it would have been more appropriate. You make comments that voltage doesn't really count and current is the primary factor for charging batteries. This is not correct. Current is always linked to voltage to calculate charging power, you cannot separate the two. If people talk about "the best charging current" and similar things for batteries, the associated voltage is always implicit and understood to be there. It still comes down to power x time = joules.
Note this is a fundamental property of Nature: The "through variable" (current) times the "across variable" (voltage) = power. You see it everywhere: force x velocity, torque x angular velocity, water flow x water pressure, etc.
Your setup is indeed a quick and easy way to charge a battery from a 10 VAC power source. I will be honest and state that I don't play with 12-volt batteries because I don't have a requirement to do that. But if I had a requirement, I would do my research on smart chargers and buy a good quality smart battery charger. I believe that they use inductive charging with current pulses and they make tests to see if the battery is fully charged and then they stop charging automatically.
You may want to explore constant-current LED power supplies. You can string multiple batteries in series and the LED power supply will charge them at a constant current. There are also dimmable constant-current LED power supplies where you can adjust the current with a potentiometer. Naturally, you would want to stop the charging manually after the battery is fully charged.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
thanks for your comment. I have been surprise also with some comment from some meber and did not react much.
Your suggestion about tittle is very good and I will change it right now.
Regarding what I said about current and joules .
You are right that we can not separate voltage and cuurent, they goes together. What I said is not my statements , it is from electro chemistry . Maybe I did not formulate it well even I tried to explain it with single cell of electrolyser.
Let is try it again. If will look any law , any formula in electro chemistry . all of them are related to number of coulombs or amps,. Because they (coulombs or amps) making deposit on cathode and oxidation on anode. So no voltage in all formulas about this subject. But we need voltage of course. It tell us that we can use any voltage range (from minimum needed voltage to above)
the work will be determined by passing current.
I will use electrolytic cell for example again.
By Faraday law we know that 96485 Coulombs is needed to liberate 1 gram of mas on electrode.
Imagine that we have cell with two stainless electrodes inside of 20 % NaOH solution.
Breaking voltage of NaOH solution is 1.69 V, plus overvoltage (supertension) of electrodes gives minimum operating voltage about 2 V. So we have MINIMUM input voltage which is 2 Volts .
The current depends of distance between electrodes, size of electrodes and type of solution and input voltage.
I already said that 2 V input will be minimum voltage input, under it, the cell will works like capacitor.
By calculation we can see that about 1.6 Amps (formula do not ask for voltage value) is needed to get one liter of Hydrogen /oxygen mixture for one hour.
So if we tune distance between two electrodes in cell to draw 1.6 amp at 2 Volts input we will get 1 liter og gas for one hour.
It gives 2 x 1.6= 3.2 Joules or Watts hour.
Next .. if we distance electrodes each other too much, the current will drops for the same voltage input. Now we need to find which voltage input will gives 1.6 Amps between electrodes.
Let say that this new voltage valuse is 3.4 V
We have now 3.4 x 1.6= 5.44 Joules of Watts hour to get ONE liter of gas.
So gas production is the SAME because it is related to Amps not to Joules
But there are losses in this case. Amps makes Joules Heat which we can calculate by formula E(heat)= R x I^2
It tell us that distanced electrodes will produces more heat than close electrodes, but gas production will be the same.
It is the same for the battery, because the same process is happen inside of them.
So if we go back to video which I made , it tell us that lover voltage input will be more efficient than higher voltage input. Battery to be charged from starting Capacity stage to 100 % Capacity needs X amount of coulombs . If you make it with 10V RMS will be lower energy input than if you make with 14.4 or 15.5 V input.
But as I said in video , you need longer time to do that with 10 V RMS than with 14.4 V RMS.
I am using this charger if I am not in a hurry.
All The Best,
Milan:
Thank you for your reply. I am just a layperson when it comes to battery electro-chemistry but I can make a few basic comments.
When you separate the electrodes it takes more voltage to sustain the same current to produce the gas like you state. However, we know that the electrolyte itself acts like a resistor. Therefore as the current flows through the electrolyte there is a voltage drop. The farther apart the electrodes are, the greater the voltage drop assuming the same current flow. In other words, this is just basic electronics concepts where the "resistor" is a fluid.
Of course there is the production of gas. That is a chemical reaction with an associated chemical formula. When you look at the formula, you see the molecular reaction to produce the gas. Some reactions are endothermic, and some reactions are exothermic. In some chemical formulas associated with the equal sign there is either a requirement of a certain number of electron-volts to make the reaction go forward, or in other cases the reaction produces a certain number of electron volts. So the point is that some chemical equations require energy in the form of electron-volts, or they release energy in the form of electron volts. Therefore, the chemical formulas account for the addition or generation of electrons, and the associated electron-volts for the reaction. i.e.; they are accounting for current and voltage for the reaction, even if in common everyday usage people only speak about the current.
So, if for example you put four volts across the electrodes to produce gas, you may have a three volt drop due to the resistance of the electrolyte, and a one volt drop to produce the gas. In another configuration it may only require three volts to produce the gas where two volts are the voltage drop through the electrolyte, and one volt remains to produce the gas.
There is no issue with respect to talking in terms of current only for purposes of discussing reactions to produce gas. The voltage is implicit and can't be forgotten when you start to do a serious energy analysis.
MileHigh
MileHigh,
Yes, in all physics we simplify process when we are trying to explain. But in reality they are very, very complex.
The same is with electro-chemistry, Faraday's law of electrolysis, charging batteries etc.
If you had chance to look my video about Tesla's Radiant Energy 5, you will see that things are not simple. Depends how we treat the cell /cells (electrolysers or batteries) different products comes out of this.
Thanks again.
Milan
Hey mancha what type of 12volt battery are you charging
Quote from: Mancha on November 04, 2014, 04:06:53 AM
to Cangas:
It was not hubris, but could be crap as you said :)
My comment was addressed to TinesKoala and Tito. Not to everybody .
Because they are talking about voltage step up conversion.
What I am saying that power input 10 V x 1A to charge the 12V battery is more efficient than" 13.5 or 15.5 x 1 A.
It means no step up or step down conversion, the same current from the source and the same current to battery.
I hope that it is more clear now.
Mancha....I have a SMALL budget available for non-essential expenses.
When I say "computer" or "computer system" that includes the internet connection.
My budget allows only dial-up internet connection.
Dial-up is famously SLOW.
Use of roughly a half dozen different different dial-up connections across 10 years have proved to me that downloading and viewing Youtube stuff is futile. It demands much more time than I can devote to it, and most often fails to complete anyway.
I have become increasingly frustrated at posters who only provide a Youtube URL and fail to give any written description of their grand idea. It really leaves me out of the loop.
When you leave me out of the loop because I cannot pay for faster computer system performance, that means that I am being considered 2nd class.
Considering me 2nd class means that you (generically speaking) consider yourself better class than me, therefore the reference to the word "hubris".
CANGAS 91
Mile High:
QuoteCangas:
You have to be kidding with your comments about "hubris" and "fast enough computer systems" and "crap." You are making it sound like Milan is doing a demo with a $50,000 digital storage oscilloscope and is enjoying making the rest of us look poor. Nothing could be further from the truth. You can buy a Pentium 4 box for $30 that will play YouTube videos just fine. An eight-year-old laptop will play YouTube videos just fine.
Meanwhile Milan makes videos in English which is not his first language and does just fine. You need to rethink your statements.
You have done it again. I have been noticing that you sometimes say something when you really seem to not know what you are talking about.
Jack, I was not writing about simply PLAYING Youtube or any other videos.
I was talking about DOWNLOADING Youtube videos. On my dial-up connection which is all I can afford.
How about
you rethinking
your statements. And maybe stuffing them before you ever write them.
CANGAS 92
Quote from: CANGAS on November 05, 2014, 12:43:41 AM
I was talking about DOWNLOADING Youtube videos. On my dial-up connection which is all I can afford.
CANGAS 92
i use http://www.clipconverter.cc , java must active, vid can be converted and be downloaded in many different format. then watch off line many time. but ads are annoying.. idm or fdm can help also.
problem solved .
seems MH can not look a thing in different angle, it's always him..
Quote from: profitis on November 04, 2014, 07:03:54 PM
Hey mancha what type of 12volt battery are you charging
Hi Profitis,
You can charge any type of 12 V LEAD battery with 10 V RMS AC Power supply.
For demo I charged Car Battery 12 V 55 Ah
All the Best,
Milan
When you leave me out of the loop because I cannot pay for faster computer system performance, that means that I am being considered 2nd class.
Considering me 2nd class means that you (generically speaking) consider yourself better class than me, therefore the reference to the word "hubris".
Cangas,
Seems that I made you upset without knowing you. and knowing your problems which are real.
I have my real problems as well, but I did not attack you back even you started with statements which are not nice to me.
Now you are continuing with getting wrong conclusion about me, without knowing me by saying "means that you (generically speaking) consider yourself better class than me".
The only what I can tell you back is DO NOT TRY TO MAKE CONCLUSION ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE ON THAT WAY, BECAUSE IT COULD BE WRONG.
Let's shake hands and calm down.
All The Best,
Milan
@mancha you can charge any battery with slightly less volts,AFTER the battery is totaly flat,UP TO A POINT. eg...Pb + 2SO4(2-) + 4H+ + PbO2 >< 2PbSO4 + 2H2O so the equilibrium shifts to the right while discharging and Vout drops over time and curves downward as we all know then when you shove a 10v onto it in reverse the v-slope now curves up again up to exactly 10v worth of nernstian re-concentration. Did you flatten the bat entirely down prior to recharge and did you measure 12v across terminals after recharge.socket wall ac to dc rectified current will also have peaks of v in the pulse-cuves above what is actually shown on a regular v-meter I think.
Electrolysis is a different ballgame ,you can get electrolysis at under 1.23volt but it has to be cyclical bursts of charge or slow-rate continuous charge also due to nernstian changes at electrodes surfaces
Quote from: profitis on November 05, 2014, 04:51:45 AM
Electrolysis is a different ballgame ,you can get electrolysis at under 1.23volt but it has to be cyclical bursts of charge or slow-rate continuous charge also due to nernstian changes at electrodes surfaces
My first project (long time a go ) was electrolysis with voltage under 1 V. It is possible with loosing anode . If anode is made by oxygen inert material in that case the cell under 1.23 V will act like capacitor.
Take Care,
Milan
Ah yes I see you know these secrets too.reminds me of those guys who recently announced usage of ions (silicotungstate) to undergo oxidation state change inplace direct gaseous evolution.I'm still trying to get my mind round your underpotential battery charger thing, you will get a faraday of deposition of lead from the bottom of the cells discharge curve climbing up until a point where you reach the 10v counter-zone..and then?dam mind-boggling
Quote from: profitis on November 05, 2014, 09:43:22 AM
Ah yes I see you know these secrets too.reminds me of those guys who recently announced usage of ions (silicotungstate) to undergo oxidation state change inplace direct gaseous evolution.
After gave up from loosing anode in my 1 V electrolysis project, I tried to change approach. I said to my self "why not lose solution instead loosing anode ?" Then I made my first big mistake in my research work. I was thinking that hydrogen peroxide is answer for that, just unstable. I spent too many working hours to make it stable without making gas detection. I was upset by myself when I have found that there is no hydrogen at all. Just decomposition into oxygen and water vapor ;D
So..we have to have that kind of mistake.
All The Best,
Milan
Mancha,
I think you are making a mistake with the 10.5 VAC transformer charging the battery. You generally can charge a battery
which has a voltage below it's maximum but the charging voltage always must be above the batteries current voltage. If you
hook a lower voltage source up to higher voltage battery you will force reverse current backward through the lower voltage supply
either blowing fuses, burning it out or folding it back.
The reason you are seeing some charging with the configuration of the 10.5VAC rectified supply is that a transformer is measured
in AC RMS voltage which is de-rated .707 * volts(peak to peak) from the peak AC voltage so that means that the voltage
in total is about 14.8VACpk-pk = 10.5VAC RMS. The diode blocks the lower AC voltages of the AC from being overridden by
the battery so that there is no backwards discharge flow (see above). So the battery is only conducting (recharge current) near
the peak = hence the altered AC power factor. These repetitive pulses are what is called PWM pulse width modulation so you have
only a small percentage of full current flowing that the AC line would be capable of for a short sub cycle period. This is what is
causing the slowing down of charging. Since you are being billed for less current by your utility meter is costing you less per unit
time but more units time should cause you to pay the *same* for this type of charging as the faster type.
I recommend the you get an oscilloscope and AC variac and you can see what the conduction charging pulse looks like at the transformer
as it begins to charge the battery as you slowly turn the voltage up.
To prove to yourself that the efficiency is the same at both charge rates you should set up a dummy load (headlamp) to
discharge the battery for the same amount of time then use your kilowatt meter to find the cost of charging the batteries
two different ways. You should allow so delay time for the battery to equalize after a fast charge. Another thing that would
help is learning how to use a hydrometer to detect the specific gravity of the battery electrolyte (see Wikipedia) so you
can start and stop the battery at the same chemical endpoints). If you can put the same specific gravity charge on a battery
at different rates then you might have something OU significant. But I predict the differences will be down in the noise.
If your really interested then you will need automate this process so you can integrate it a number of times without
procedural errors.
----
Now, you can electrolyze hydrogen slowly at a lower value of input voltage and room temperature heat gets included
as energy in the charge. Batteries also have this effect but it simply produces an efficiency effect that allows
a battery to charge with an efficiency that cancels out the batteries internal resistance, that really should be included.
:S: MarkSCoffman
Quote from: mscoffman on November 05, 2014, 04:31:07 PM
Mancha,
I think you are making a mistake with the 10.5 VAC transformer charging the battery. You generally can charge a battery
which has a voltage below it's maximum but the charging voltage always must be above the batteries current voltage. If you
hook a lower voltage source up to higher voltage battery you will force reverse current backward through the lower voltage supply
either blowing fuses, burning it out or folding it back.
The reason you are seeing some charging with the configuration of the 10.5VAC rectified supply is that a transformer is measured
in AC RMS voltage which is de-rated .707 * volts(peak to peak) from the peak AC voltage so that means that the voltage
in total is about 14.8VACpk-pk = 10.5VAC RMS. The diode blocks the lower AC voltages of the AC from being overridden by
the battery so that there is no backwards discharge flow (see above). So the battery is only conducting (recharge current) near
the peak = hence the altered AC power factor. These repetitive pulses are what is called PWM pulse width modulation so you have
only a small percentage of full current flowing that the AC line would be capable of for a short sub cycle period. This is what is
causing the slowing down of charging. Since you are being billed for less current by your utility meter is costing you less per unit
time but more units time should cause you to pay the *same* for this type of charging as the faster type.
I recommend the you get an oscilloscope and AC variac and you can see what the conduction charging pulse looks like at the transformer
as it begins to charge the battery as you slowly turn the voltage up.
To prove to yourself that the efficiency is the same at both charge rates you should set up a dummy load (headlamp) to
discharge the battery for the same amount of time then use your kilowatt meter
:S: MarkSCoffman
MarkCofman,
I agree almost with everything what you said, but it is also what I said on video with my English.
Of course that we made test with scope, energy meters, battery capacity analyser (we have four type of them).
also we always discharge battery to the same level with the same current
For that we are using our energy meter :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9s2L5zjXjU
It is not something special, we just constructed for our needs.
Yes, needed time to make 100% charged battery is longer than using ordinary chargers, but I said it in video .
But I do not agree that will be the same total invested energy. We got about 30-35% better results with 10V RMS AC , then with 13.5 V ordinary charger. the power factor is the same.
there are few reasons why it is better. first is how I described, another is lower current of charging. As you know higher current decreases efficiency .
But it takes too much time.
It is not invention, it is just one more approach for charging batteries. I am using this principle in just few cases in my lab. For some cases I like to use this chargers because is simple to make, no current regulation, no nothing, just transformer and bridge rectifier.
All The Best,
Milan
yes @mancha hydrogen peroxide H2O2 + 2H+ + 2e- >< 2H20 1.7v(Es) powerful oxidizer: H2 + H2O2 = 2H2O.did you know that virtually all intermediate catalytic-step reaction for the common O2 + 4H+ + 4e- >< 2H2O involves instant decomposition of h2o2 somewhere in the chain of steps.infact it involves so many short-lived intermediates that not even scientists agree on exact mechanisms yet.also different catalyst = different mechanisms. They got some electrolysis at 1.5v with Fe2O3 cathode and Ni(OH)2 anode just a few weeks ago but its actually been known since the 1960's yet they only shove this into the media now,very strange.I got visible electrolysis in my lab at 1.3v with platinum cathode and Nickel anode( in NaOH sol).I agree with markscoffman that when a non-gaseous (solid) faraday deposition is happening eg lead or zinc then how are you gonna jump over the counter-emf to get up to full capacity,solids cannot dissipate like gases or liquids do so I don't see chance for nernst manipulation? Only way I see to get round chemical counter-emf is via manipulation of voltage-peaks as markscoffman say but this will apply only to solids chemistry.a solid has a nernst-value of unity (1) beyond a critical point.
Quote from: profitis on November 06, 2014, 01:57:10 AM
.I agree with markscoffman that when a non-gaseous (solid) faraday deposition is happening eg lead or zinc then how are you gonna jump over the counter-emf to get up to full capacity,solids cannot dissipate like gases or liquids do so I don't see chance for nernst manipulation? Only way I see to get round chemical counter-emf is via manipulation of voltage-peaks as markscoffman say but this will apply only to solids chemistry.a solid has a nernst-value of unity (1)
Profitis,
High active hydrogen produced with Pb or Zn cathode has different activity than hydrogen produced by Nickel or Stainless steel Cathode.
Active hydrogen react with Pb at room temperature. PbH4 is result of this reaction. PbH4 is GAS, but very unstable gas which not lost too long. Zinc hydrate is powder. We can ask ourself why LEAD acid battery is still on the market beside many disadvantages. Even manufacturer has to pay tax for ecology. The answer is that there are more advantages than disandvantages. One of them could be electro-chemistry and chemistry which is happening inside. I described just one aspect of this in my bideo Tesla's Radiant Energy 4 and 5.
All the Best,
Milan
Mmm let me put thinking cap on try figure if these hydrides will lower entropy levels @mancha brb
Okay @mancha I've given this some thought.atomic hydrogen is a very powerful reducer,much more powerful than dihydrogen.if your atomic hydrogen in its very brief lifetime is reducing PbSO4 back to lead I can understand. However,if the atomic hydrogen is forming PbH4 then decomposing into Pb and H2 you have a problem,residual H2 gas.residual H2 gas is going to float straight over to your PbO2 cathode and burnup on it and consume it giving a hidden cost.sacrifice of PbO2 for liberation of Pb...mmff!?
Atomic H in its unbonded raw state in acid sol H>< H+ + e- 2.1v (Es)
Quote from: profitis on November 06, 2014, 11:04:43 AM
Okay @mancha I've given this some thought.atomic hydrogen is a very powerful reducer,much more powerful than dihydrogen.if your atomic hydrogen in its very brief lifetime is reducing PbSO4 back to lead I can understand. However,if the atomic hydrogen is forming PbH4 then decomposing into Pb and H2 you have a problem,residual H2 gas.residual H2 gas is going to float straight over to your PbO2 cathode and burnup on it and consume it giving a hidden cost.sacrifice of PbO2 for liberation of Pb...mmff!?
Well,
Electrochemistry inside of battery is too complex as everything in nature. We always simplify processes , because they are very complex.
What I am trying to say is that we can change electro-chemistry and chemcitry inside of battery
with different kind of treatment, because there are different level of hydrogen activity which depedns of the way how it is produced. Different level of activity make different chemistry on cathode, different chemistry on cathode change internal resistance of battery. Internal resitance is already changes with charging/discharging of battery, but we could speed up or make it slower..
Also it is very important to say, there will be several different chemical processes in the same time. there is no just one. When I said that there are different activity of hydrogen it means that there will be mixture of different level of activity. Not all hydrogen atoms or molecules will has high activity.
Have a look it again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq9AvKU26A4
Ooooffff I started to complicate things, it is better to stop now ;D
All the Best,
Milan
Lol @mancha ya I get what you are 'trying' to say.atomic hotspots like a laser focus one patch at a time.I want to try some experiments with this hypotheses on a small-scale.you maybe are sacrificing time for energy gains
Quote from: profitis on November 07, 2014, 04:06:07 AM
Lol @mancha ya I get what you are 'trying' to say.atomic hotspots like a laser focus one patch at a time.I want to try some experiments with this hypotheses on a small-scale.you maybe are sacrificing time for energy gains
Profitis,
Yes, It is direction what I am trying to develop, but it is not all, When you DISCHARGE battery
you get the same behavior on opposite electrode, because it became cathode now. Which means with "smart" discharging of the battery it is possible to recover battery in some sense.
All The Best,
Milan