Hi All,
I talked to a member of this forum few days ago, and I decided to open a new topic for WM2D users, to upload our tests and experiments about gravity-type wheels and devices. I think that unworkable devices also can be useful, and cause new ideas in somebody's mind, when he/she check it.
So, upload your ideas what you want to disclose, and we can see the work of each other, and start discussions if something intersting appear.
For the first, I upload my oldest unworkable design, what I call: The flower-type wheel.
In this wheel, every weight has its own movement track, and everyone can move independently.
Regards,
Greg
Hello Greg & Gregory.
I am not a WM2D user but I would love to have my idea tested in your program. I have started a prototype and any input would be very welcome. Would you consider doing that? My idea is posted here, http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1527.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1527.0.html).
Thank You for considering.
Dale
Hi inroades,
I've read your design. It's not easy for me to make a simulation of your idea, but I can give it a try.
In the other hand... I don't want to sadden you, but something in my mind tells me it won't work.
Anyway, I have a few question to clear my understandings first.
1. How can the weights be locked and released mechanically, what is the mechanism?
2. In which way does your upper ramp lift and return the weights to the outer position?
3. Is your device started by itself, or started by a motor?
Wish you good experimenting!
Greg
Hello Greg,
Thanks for giving it a try.
1) I was going to use electo magnets for latches, but I think any low friction mech latch might work.
2) The upper ramp is fixed and doesn't move or lift the weights. The idea is that the wheel won't make power until about 75 RPM or 1.5 gravity in centrifugal force. The upper ramp is just stopping the weight from slamming against the stop. converting the extra centrifugal force in the weights to rotational power in the wheel.
3) It will need to be started to at least 1.5 to 2.0 gravity in centrifugal force. I am told that centrifugal force increases on the square in relation to rotational speed so if it doesn't run at 75 to 100 rpm I believe that increasing rpm will favor most all the numbers.
Also I calculated that on a 6 or 8 foot wheel terminal Vol. was about 400 rpm, so the rpm window is fairly large.
Thank you again and please post or email direct with any questions, I am in Colorado if we need to talk on the phone. reachdale@msn.com
Dale
Ok Dale,
Now I understand. Unfortunately I don't know how to simulate latches, but I will try something during the next week. After I post a reply for you, about my "findings".
Thanks Greg, your time and efforts are appreciated more than you know.
Dale
Inroades,
I have bad news. I tried to simulate your design, but with no success. The problem is that Wm2d doesn't have a built in tool to create latches or any similar lock-release mechanism. I was thinking about it more than an hour last night and today, but I couldn't figure it out how to build such a mechanism. Perhaps, it's not possible in Wm2d correctly, and much better to try it in reality with your electromagnetic setup.
Sorry, that I couldn't help you. :(
Wish you success!
You can 'fake' a latch in WM2D. Hold the object in position with a rod, rope or similar. Then open the properties and deactivate the [Active when] option. There you can write a formula that will activate/deactivate the rod(rope,etc.)
For example, you would like to deactivate the 'latch' after 1 second of simulation time, then you would write " time<1 " ... as in, latch is active as long as the time is less then 1 second ...
You can use other properties, like the rotational angle of a circle, to drive the fake latch.
Cheers,
Rainer
Hello Greg
Thanks for your efforts, just a thought if we can't duplicate the whole machine maybe just the lower weight release onto a spring ramp of some kind. My thoughts are if indeed a weight or a ball can rise higher than the wheel that dropped it moving slower than terminal velosity than many designs will work. I think 75 rpm on a 8 foot wheel was only about 22 mph weight speed. Machines that throw the ball/weight to a upper ramp and fall on to the power side from above are one thought. I know it is not this simple but if by adding a 90 degree plus turn of centrifugal force to an object causes it to produce energy for both the wheel an enough energy to return this object with more force,faster, isn't that the Grail. the rest would just be logistics. What are your thoughts?
Thanks
Dale
Rainer,
Thanks. What is the keyword for rotation (degree)? Can I use more than one operator? And where can I read about all these advanced options of Wm2d?
Dale,
I can try the release onto a spring ramp, but it will be "funny" in simulation at 75 rpm. As you see I'm not the best in simulation, I've just used the program actively since August, but I will try, what can I do for that.
Quote from: inroades on October 02, 2006, 10:50:04 AM
My thoughts are if indeed a weight or a ball can rise higher than the wheel that dropped it moving slower than terminal velosity than many designs will work. I think 75 rpm on a 8 foot wheel was only about 22 mph weight speed. Machines that throw the ball/weight to a upper ramp and fall on to the power side from above are one thought. I know it is not this simple but if by adding a 90 degree plus turn of centrifugal force to an object causes it to produce energy for both the wheel an enough energy to return this object with more force,faster, isn't that the Grail. the rest would just be logistics. What are your thoughts?
What you said is right, maybe not as easy as we like.
If the ball can "fly" higer than the weel, and can rise faster it will be a real possibility.
Throw the weight to an upper position is a good idea. In fact I have been working on some different designs and have a few, where I try to throw the weights back to the initial position with less or more success, but the breakthrough is still waiting.
The parameter for rotation would be body(x).p.r ... where you have to replace x with the actual number of your object. Those brackets are supposed to be square brackets, but somehow this editor treats them as a special character ... ?
Just create a meter for rotation, position, etc. and in there you can see what parameter is used to access the value needed.
I will try to attach the formula reference, have a look and if you need more examples, just ask.
Cheers,
Rainer
Rainer,
I uploaded it successfully. Looks like a good stuff.
Thank you for your help. I appreciate it.
Hi Dale!
I have experimented a bit with centrifugal/centripetal force and released a weight from a r = 4m big wheel.
Around 20 rpm an 1.5 kg weight flew out of the wheel easily, even upwards. Over 30 rpm it flew out with more velocity. At first sight I think CF can be used to operate with it in a clever way. The test was also very useful for me, and for my development of my own models. Thanks.
I will do a kind of spring ramp test at the weekend.
Regards,
Greg
Hello Greg.
Thanks again for the update and efforts. I am feeling a little helpless on this end.
If I can do anything to help please let me know. Very happy to here that this might help your concepts!
Dale
Dale,
I have finished a spring ramp test. As you thought, it is possible to push the weight back to the inner latch position. Works good.
My wheel is driven by a torque motor, and accelerating to 13.6 rpm, where the weight hit the spring ramp.
I marked the weight in question, and the ramp with green color.
Weight is released just before the collision, at t=1.55 sec
The torque motor is turned off at t=1.6 sec
The weight hit the ramp, and the spring push it back to the inner position.
RPM drops a bit at the collision event (by 0.7 approx.), but quickly gains back while the torque motor is turned off. This is at 13 rpm.
I can't test it at higher Rpms because the WM2D has problems with collision at higher rpms, usually simply ignores the collision. I can be very angry in these situations. ;)
But weight return with greater force at higher rpms, sure.
Important things:
The diameter of the wheel, the mass of the weights, the position of the spring ramp, the force of the spring, and the rate of velocity must be designed together, in relation to each other to find the best and most efficient version of the return process.
Here is a sample picture:
I can't post an animation, because Wm2d crash when I try to make one.
But here is some pictures show the process step by step.
Hope I helped.
Greg
Hello Greg,
What a great job you did, thank you very much. I ran the clips in a slide show and that produced pretty good animation. I downloaded a sample version of the program and played with dropping a ball at different rpm and you are correct that rpm, ramp angles, weight release timing will be hard to manage. I had a thought to include on the top side a magnet to help overcome some of the lower ramp friction, just as the weight is released from the inside position it could slide past an opposing magnet to gain a little push in addition to the power ramp.
Please feel free to add any advice/counsel to the project as it is much needed and welcome.
Thanks again
Dale
Quote from: Greg & Gregory on October 09, 2006, 01:43:41 PM
I can't test it at higher Rpms because the WM2D has problems with collision at higher rpms, usually simply ignores the collision. I can be very angry in these situations. ;)
But weight return with greater force at higher rpms, sure.
You have to change the simulation settings. Go to menu "World" -> "Accuracy". There turn off the automatic option for animation step and integration error and use your own settings. Normally I run my sims with an animation step of 0.01 seconds, if crucial even less. THe integration error depends on the average size of your parts. My test wheels are on avarage 1 meter in diameter, there I use a value of 0.1mm to run it. Calculation will be slow, but the result will be better.
Cheers,
Rainer
EDITMe again, Hi Greg & Gregory :)
just a question in regard to the simulation pictures you posted. Is the collision turned on between the green ramp and the green weight?
If so your settings might be too rough, on the pictures I can see how the weight overlaps the 'cage' that surrounds it and how it moves
into the ramp before it gets swung up.
If that is the case you can't trust the simulation results at all. The interference seen will result in a much larger repelling force than you could expect in real life. Even so it is a simulation, the participating objects should not overlap. If they do, as mentioned above, you have to change the settings.
Cheers,
Rainer
Hi Tinhead,
Thanks for the advice, it was helpful. :)
Me stupid... Now I see how can I set the options to get a correct result for the collision, and everything.
Unfortunately, I don't like to wait much for such a simulation, but now I learnd sometimes patience is crucial... Maybe for my best designs... ;)
Yes, only the green weight allowed to collide with the green ramp, nothing other.
Anyway, the thing works almost the same with much higher accuracy, I tested.
I quickly tested it again at 30 rpm. The velocity dropped a little bit more, but gained back.
I think it is not easy to replicate something like this in reality.
Dale,
I had to change the spring force at 30 rpm.
The spring force must be designed for Rpm (and weight mass), because at higher Rpms, the centrifugal force is also higher, which mean you need a stronger spring to return the weight to the inner position.
Things must be match correctly. I think it can be problematic to build something similar in reality, even more if you operate with higher Rpms. Please be very careful if you build such a "crazy" thing (;D), it can be really dangerous when you drive it at high Rpms.
Greg
Hello Greg
I will be very careful, high rpm could give new meaning to a free weight room. ;D
Thanks again
Dale
bear in mind wm2d can create OU verry easely, even if you turn all the frictions and resistances on.
Hi alan2here!
Good to hear... Can you show one without the curved polygon bug, and without electrostatics and "faked magnets"?
Thanks,
Example of MTY engine...
I'll be adding valves and distributor later...
Enjoy ripping it apart!
~Dingus
Minor design change and presto!
No need for valves!
Still going to add a distributor set though.
ONLY 6 MOVING PARTS SO FAR!!!
~Dingus
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 14, 2007, 03:03:42 AM
Minor design change and presto!
No need for valves!
Still going to add a distributor set though.
ONLY 6 MOVING PARTS SO FAR!!!
~Dingus
this is awesome! wow! brilliant! outstanding idea! lol :o
Quote from: FreeEnergy on May 14, 2007, 03:04:30 AM
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on May 14, 2007, 03:03:42 AM
Minor design change and presto!
No need for valves!
Still going to add a distributor set though.
ONLY 6 MOVING PARTS SO FAR!!!
~Dingus
this is awesome! wow! brilliant! outstanding idea! lol :o
Thanks!
But I can't take much credit for it... This is a replication of the mechanics of the MYT engine developed by Raphial Morgado @ Angel Labs LLC.
Angel Labs website (http://www.angellabsllc.com/)
Car Show Demo Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGlUZg2pC0Q)
Video discription of Engine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqSIq39TMNM)
Thanks for looking!
~Dingus
this is really sweet! very unique indeed. good job on the replication.
peace
Inertial Drive System:
I'll update the info here this weekend.
Too tired right now...