A simple little project with some interesting results and effects.
Below is a schematic of the DUT.
The transformer is just a 2:1 transformer-->nothing special. One of the inetresting effects is the ability to get the secondary winding to ring while the primary winding dose not-->and yet both windings are wound together on the same former. You will also note that the voltage across the secondary(blue trace) remains for twice the time duration than that of the primary(yellow trace)-->even though it is driving the LED. The scope shot below shows these two effects,and have attached the schematic as well-along with the first video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8enRKKAyg0
Hy Tin Man ,very interesting ,I will like to try with abiger traffo and see if come out some 20 watt lamp ,
wath do you think ,is safe to try to bust 10 kgr. traffo in this configuration
Open circuit you would normally get 2X the voltage across the secondary that you get across the primary. You only get 3V across the secondary because the the 50 Ohms of the function generator looks like 200 Ohms in series with the 2X secondary and the LED easily clamps against that. If you move the chl 2 probe to the primary you should see that the voltage there only comes up to about +1.5V. That means that during the pulse high time of the function generator, (1.5V)2/50 = 45mW is being dissipated internally by the function generator. This is comparable to the power that is delivered to the circuit, meaning that the circuit is roughly 50% efficient.
Tinman,
Perhaps you already know this... If the winding in your primary were 1/4 the size/weight of that in your secondary, would you not then get resonance in both sets of windings?
I am thinking of course, of Tesla's Magnifying transmitter.
But maybe you're not looking for resonance on both coils.
According to Eric Dollard, any time we drive a coil to resonance, we separate the dielectric component to one end and the magnetic/current component to the other end:
QuoteWhen you experiment with a resonating coil, you find that all your magnetism then appears at one end and all your dielectricity appears at the other end, and you have a difference in these electrical discharges which occur off the end of this... which will occur back to the point at which they started from. And you can hook a radio frequency watt meter or amp meter or whatever you want here and there'll be actual initiation of very heavy flows of energy, all of which are reflected back to the coil, except that utilized by the load...
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_wiFboM3f2M#t=27
How to access the dielectric component might be a question worth entertaining.
Bob
Why don't you ask Eric Dollard that question, I'm sure his answer will be quite "entertaining". Especially for people who work with resonating coil systems every day, like radio engineers, and _real_ Tesla coil theorists like the Corum brothers.
Eric Dollard says a lot of things. Unfortunately, not very many of them are actually correct.
Quote from: Bob Smith on March 02, 2015, 03:51:56 PM
Tinman,
Perhaps you already know this... If the winding in your primary were 1/4 the size/weight of that in your secondary, would you not then get resonance in both sets of windings?
I am thinking of course, of Tesla's Magnifying transmitter.
But maybe you're not looking for resonance on both coils.
According to Eric Dollard, any time we drive a coil to resonance, we separate the dielectric component to one end and the magnetic/current component to the other end:
How to access the dielectric component might be a question worth entertaining.
Bob
All the magnetism shifts to one end? In what universe does that happen? Dollard is a nutter who makes outrageous declarations for beer money.
I wonder which end is which on this resonating coil?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-iF9Go0iI
Please remember that as the title states, I will be showing an ou effect-not some device that will be saving man kind. I suspect the effect is some how being generated by the SG, although at this time im not sure how.
All this will be shown in the next video, which I will put together and post when I get back home-w b ich may be as late as friday--》the joys off long haul runs.
Quote from: MarkE on March 02, 2015, 04:18:36 PM
All the magnetism shifts to one end? In what universe does that happen? Dollard is a nutter who makes outrageous declarations for beer money.
You say that like it's a bad thing
Quote from: MarkE on March 02, 2015, 04:18:36 PM
All the magnetism shifts to one end? In what universe does that happen? Dollard is a nutter who makes outrageous declarations for beer money.
Then explain as to how the secondary rings so strongly,while the primary coil dose not-->even though they are wound on the same core-one coil one end,and the other coil the other end.
The ringing shows an alternating voltage across the coil,and as far as i know,the magnetic field must be changing polarity to create this alternating voltage- +/- voltage. So if this is the case,then why dose not the primary also ring due to inductive coupling with the secondary?.
Seems to me that there dose indeed seem to be a case where only the secondary half of the core has an oscillating magnetic field-->although i do find this hard to believe myself ???
Quote from: tinman on March 02, 2015, 09:13:28 PM
Please remember that as the title states, I will be showing an ou effect-not some device that will be saving man kind. I suspect the effect is some how being generated by the SG, although at this time im not sure how.
All this will be shown in the next video, which I will put together and post when I get back home-w b ich may be as late as friday--》the joys off long haul runs.
Well what you've got right now is a situation where if you monitor the circuit at start-up, the voltage on the output of the FG should climb from about 1.5V to the 3V setting logarithmically, as should the voltage at the common point on the bottom of the transformer. Once the capacitor charges up to about 1.5V, then each time you apply a pulse from the function generator, it delivers 3V into the circuit at ~2X the current of the secondary, and then when the pulse falls to zero, current recirculates from the capacitor through the diode and that extends the time that voltage appears on the secondary. When the primary current collapses is where you see the ringing.
If you want to measure the power accurately, you sort of have a problem of where to probe the secondary circuit for both voltage and current. You want the voltage across the LED and the current through the LED. You can make your life easier by referencing the secondary side to the same circuit ground as the primary side, instead of the bottom of the transformer primary as you have now.
Quote from: tinman on March 03, 2015, 02:37:48 AM
Then explain as to how the secondary rings so strongly,while the primary coil dose not-->even though they are wound on the same core-one coil one end,and the other coil the other end.
The ringing shows an alternating voltage across the coil,and as far as i know,the magnetic field must be changing polarity to create this alternating voltage- +/- voltage. So if this is the case,then why dose not the primary also ring due to inductive coupling with the secondary?.
Seems to me that there dose indeed seem to be a case where only the secondary half of the core has an oscillating magnetic field-->although i do find this hard to believe myself ???
That is trivial: You are not probed to see that the
voltage across the primary is ringing right along with the secondary. You see the steady output of the function generator and measure that to ground which is not the
voltage across the primary. The
voltage across the primary is the difference between the FG output and the voltage on the capacitor.
If you swap the R-C network with the transformer top to bottom as shown here then you can probe the voltage and current properly in both the primary and the secondary sides. You will find that referred to the circuit ground, the primary and the secondary track very closely at the turns ratio. When one rings, the other rings.
With the circuit rearranged as below (the 50 Ohms is internal to the FG) you will see the same voltage on node 1 as in the old circuit. But now you can see the primary at node 4 (assumes small value CSR), and the secondary at node 3 (also assumes small output CSR) and register the currents at 5, and 6 for the input and output respectively.
It's about time some others called Dollard on his crazy statements. He also claims that if you stand under an antenna array in one location then you can also be standing under a remote receiver array at the same time or some such drivel. Just totally out there.
His swirling plasma in the light globes are not galaxies either they are just swirling plasma artifacts. I can do similar myself and have video of a filament spinning like a rotor inside a light bulb powered by a jet of plasma emitted from it's end. And with less than 10 watts input at 12 volts. No big deal to imagine the effects when a 10 000 volt supply and many hundreds of Watts are used. Especially easy when someone else pays for it all.
..
..
Quote from: MarkE on March 03, 2015, 05:50:56 AM
That is trivial: You are not probed to see that the voltage across the primary is ringing right along with the secondary. You see the steady output of the function generator and measure that to ground which is not the voltage across the primary. The voltage across the primary is the difference between the FG output and the voltage on the capacitor.
If you swap the R-C network with the transformer top to bottom as shown here then you can probe the voltage and current properly in both the primary and the secondary sides. You will find that referred to the circuit ground, the primary and the secondary track very closely at the turns ratio. When one rings, the other rings.
With the circuit rearranged as below (the 50 Ohms is internal to the FG) you will see the same voltage on node 1 as in the old circuit. But now you can see the primary at node 4 (assumes small value CSR), and the secondary at node 3 (also assumes small output CSR) and register the currents at 5, and 6 for the input and output respectively.
Really ???
Here is the second video.
Enjoy.
I have also swaped transformer's,and will be posting a video on that tonight as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kmayxefg8A8
Yes, really.
You have arranged your circuit in a way that makes it difficult for you to measure it properly, especially given that you only have single-ended probes. The primary is across nodes 1 and 2. You are not probing across 1 and 2. You are probing from 1 to ground and incorrectly calling that your primary. Node 1 has 50 Ohms to ground during the ring out via the FG. The secondary is high impedance as the LED has stopped conducting.
Quote from: MarkE on March 03, 2015, 06:44:17 AM
Yes, really.
You have arranged your circuit in a way that makes it difficult for you to measure it properly, especially given that you only have single-ended probes. The primary is across nodes 1 and 2. You are not probing across 1 and 2. You are probing from 1 to ground and incorrectly calling that your primary. Node 1 has 50 Ohms to ground during the ring out via the FG. The secondary is high impedance as the LED has stopped conducting.
Im guessing that you havnt watched the second video,where i have emmited(switched off) the 50 ohm attenuation. Both grounds of the scope are now on the ground side of the two coil's-after the 100 ohm resistor/capacitor combo(which are a common ground between the two coils. Then each probe is across each coil,and still the ringing is only on the secondary.
And how would we measure current flow when the current flow across the 100 ohm resistor reverses?-even though the only thing we change on the SG is the duty cycle. How do we explain the voltage across the primary rising higher than the voltage being supplied to it when this current reversal takes place?-the voltage rise on the primary is consistant with the current reversal shown across the 100 ohm resistor.
Is there any point in measureing current flowing through the LED,when the current flowing through the primary is flowing in the wrong direction?
In the circuit i posted,what would have to happen for the voltage across the cap to switch polarity?
Im not saying that we have some miracle device here(and im preatty sure we dont),what i am saying is that i am seeing some interesting things here-->and some even more interesting things to come with the different transformer i tried today.
Below is a scope shot across the 100 ohm resistor without the cap.
You tell me which way the bulk of the current flow is?. scope ground on circuit ground,and probe on the transformer side of the 100 ohm resistor.
SG-2VPP with a positive 1 volt offset-->2 volt pulses,and 0 volt off time.
Quote from: tinman on March 03, 2015, 07:51:04 AM
Im guessing that you havnt watched the second video,where i have emmited(switched off) the 50 ohm attenuation.
Sorry to disappoint you but I sat through all 27 minutes.
Quote
Both grounds of the scope are now on the ground side of the two coil's-after the 100 ohm resistor/capacitor combo(which are a common ground between the two coils. Then each probe is across each coil,and still the ringing is only on the secondary.
Yes, so? Now you've got an even lower impedance across the primary and still a very high impedance across the secondary. This is all very basic stuff.
Quote
And how would we measure current flow when the current flow across the 100 ohm resistor reverses?-even though the only thing we change on the SG is the duty cycle. How do we explain the voltage across the primary rising higher than the voltage being supplied to it when this current reversal takes place?-the voltage rise on the primary is consistant with the current reversal shown across the 100 ohm resistor.
One designs a set-up with the measurements they are going to need to obtain in mind. If you want to make accurate voltage measurements, you will need to dispense with the wires all over your desktop and localize your circuit common. You have stray inductances all over the place with all that wiring. It won't bother you at the 100us to ms range, but it will give you all kinds of grief in the us range.
Quote
Is there any point in measureing current flowing through the LED,when the current flowing through the primary is flowing in the wrong direction?
Aside from some ringing, the current in the primary really only flows in the clockwise direction using positive current convention.
Quote
In the circuit i posted,what would have to happen for the voltage across the cap to switch polarity?
Which version? The one with the diode anode at ground, or on the positive side of the capacitor?
Quote
Im not saying that we have some miracle device here(and im preatty sure we dont),what i am saying is that i am seeing some interesting things here-->and some even more interesting things to come with the different transformer i tried today.
What you find interesting is nothing new or unusual. If it is interesting to you: great, learn all you can from it.
Quote
Below is a scope shot across the 100 ohm resistor without the cap.
You tell me which way the bulk of the current flow is?. scope ground on circuit ground,and probe on the transformer side of the 100 ohm resistor.
SG-2VPP with a positive 1 volt offset-->2 volt pulses,and 0 volt off time.
Tinman,
great videos, that's the way they should be done.
No silly music, no deception, well done!
John.
Tinman:
You have a great opportunity to analyze this simple circuit with your floating scope. I would suggest that you do what I have often stated: You record all of the relevant voltage and current waveforms and then you construct a full timing diagram that shows six, seven, or eight or more waveforms all lined up in time. I suppose that you could export captured waveforms and then assemble them into a a tall and narrow composite .jpeg or .png image. Or do Plan B, which is to simply sketch your waveforms on graph paper by hand and then photograph it.
The point is to see all of the waveforms in one shot and understand and explain the dependencies between the waveforms. That way you understand the operation of the circuit.
Sorry, but I have to state that you can see how you are still tripping yourself up. You stated that the primary was not ringing, but you weren't even measuring the voltage across the primary. If you did a full and rigorous investigation like I suggest above, you would have discovered your error for yourself.
There is also an issue with your nomenclature. People can claim a circuit is over unity or under unity. But what is an "over unity effect?" I don't know what that means. Are you claiming the circuit is over unity or not?
On this forum there is also an issue about the title for a thread. People always put some kind of claim of over unity in the title before anything has been proven. You notice that they don't permit that on OUR and Chris/EMJunkie had to change the title of his thread after it became evident that his claim was not true.
MileHigh
Quote from: MarkE on March 03, 2015, 08:02:58 AM
QuoteYou have stray inductances all over the place with all that wiring. It won't bother you at the 100us to ms range, but it will give you all kinds of grief in the us range.
As i said in both video's,the result is the same from 40hZ to 15khZ
QuoteAside from some ringing, the current in the primary really only flows in the clockwise direction using positive current convention.
And yet we clearly see current flowing in both directions across the 100 ohm resistor.
QuoteWhich version? The one with the diode anode at ground, or on the positive side of the capacitor?
Once again,as stated in the video-either side of the capacitor/resistor,or not there at all-->it makes no difference to the circuits opperation. So in order to reverse the polarity of the voltage across the capacitor/resistor combo,what would have to happen?.
QuoteWhat you find interesting is nothing new or unusual. If it is interesting to you: great, learn all you can from it.
Cool,can you show us a setup where the voltage across a capacitor changes in polarity,while maintaining a current flow in one direction,where that cap is in series with the circuit such as mine is?.
I would like to see an image or image such that I can follow all the wiring. It is quite possible that you have set-up a ground loop.
Quote from: MarkE on March 03, 2015, 07:09:06 PM
I would like to see an image or image such that I can follow all the wiring. It is quite possible that you have set-up a ground loop.
The circuit is as posted. D1 is on the positive side of the cap.
Oh-one more interesting thing I found.
I cant get the same effect with a transformer that has a ferrite core, the amp meter always shows a forward current, and the voltage across the cap wont switch polarity--》aint that a hoot :P
Quote from: tinman on March 04, 2015, 12:37:24 AM
The circuit is as posted. D1 is on the positive side of the cap.
Is it really so much trouble to snap one or two pictures that show all the wiring?
Quote from: MarkE on March 04, 2015, 12:47:10 AM
Is it really so much trouble to snap one or two pictures that show all the wiring?
As I am 600km away from home, it is quite a bit of trouble ATM.
There is a decent sim compliments of EMdevices. I assume more tweaking and adjusting will be forthcoming.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2804.msg46835#msg46835
Quote from: MileHigh on March 04, 2015, 04:01:04 AM
There is a decent sim compliments of EMdevices. I assume more tweaking and adjusting will be forthcoming.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2804.msg46835#msg46835
Looks very close indeed MH. Lets see if he can get the voltage polarity to reverse on C1 using his sim.
So a question for you all.
Lets say we have 2 DC cap's-63 volts,and a capacity of 10 000uF.
Now we know if we place these two caps in parallel,we will retaind the voltage rating of 63 volt's,and the capacitance will double to 20 000uF. We also know if we put these caps in series,we will half the capacitance to 5000uF,but double the voltage to 126 volt's. But what if we want to use these two caps on an AC current. For this we would join the two negatives in series,and we would have the two positive terminals conected to our AC source-->but what would be the capacitance of the two cap's now?.
Quote from: tinman on March 04, 2015, 09:47:36 AM
So a question for you all.
Lets say we have 2 DC cap's-63 volts,and a capacity of 10 000uF.
Now we know if we place these two caps in parallel,we will retaind the voltage rating of 63 volt's,and the capacitance will double to 20 000uF. We also know if we put these caps in series,we will half the capacitance to 5000uF,but double the voltage to 126 volt's. But what if we want to use these two caps on an AC current. For this we would join the two negatives in series,and we would have the two positive terminals conected to our AC source-->but what would be the capacitance of the two cap's now?.
Two capacitors in series exhibit a total capacitance of:
C
SERIES = C
1*C
2/(C
1 + C
2)
Quote from: tinman on March 04, 2015, 09:47:36 AM
...
But what if we want to use these two caps on an AC current. For this we would join the two negatives in series,and we would have the two positive terminals conected to our AC source-->but what would be the capacitance of the two cap's now?.
Hi Brad,
It is advisable to use parallel diodes across the capacitors to prevent unwanted voltage polarity across the electrolytic capacitors what the AC voltage would impose on them, I attached a drawing (taken from the web) how the diodes should be connected.
The diodes should have appropiate voltage and current ratings as per the expected peak charge or discharge current values for the capacitors.
And the resultant capacitance of the two series caps would be as MarkE wrote (or from your example, half of the 10000 uF i.e. 5000 uF as you wrote).
By the way, you can find non polar (bi-polar) electrolytic capacitors, they are manufactured too, see a random link here:
http://tinyurl.com/nzxb3yu (http://tinyurl.com/nzxb3yu) or here:
http://www.erseaudio.com/s.nl/sc.7/category.833/.f (http://www.erseaudio.com/s.nl/sc.7/category.833/.f)Gyula