Overunity.com Archives

I have a few questions,
What would it be worth for the person that makes such a device? everyone must ask them self this but i have no idea would it be open source and then you get nothing? or would you and your family be comfortable for generations?

Is there a place that would make a specific part if you needed it?
would the device have to be OU and not PM?
how about a device that would work on earth only is that still classed as OU/PM?

I am your average guy settled down filling free time with odd jobs and messing with gadgets I work full time and my job requires i drive all over the uk in that time i find myself with lots of free thinking time and thats why I have a few ideas

Can you give an example of what you have in mind, because it kind of depends
on what the new invention is.


Welcome to Overunity!!!
                                                                                                                                       .

Well a tried and tested example is a kind of pendulum  using magnets around it to charge a coil which sends the power in one kick to an electro magnet repeating the process this did stop after about 5 minutes but I have MANY more ideas some just as simple some complicated.

The next attempt will consist of only magnets and its intention is just to work until the parts wear out not intended to produce energy.

The interesting tests will be those that compare the run down times with the magnets installed versus with the magnets replaced by equivalent non-magnetic weights.

Without magnets it ran for just over 6 minutes letting it go at the same place (touching a board) so i'm assuming the drag on the coils/magnets took energy.
Still its one of the first I had and I have quite a few more, I just need to work on a few parts. Thinking about one earlyer gave me a way to maybe improve on the design but im sticking with the simplest version first.

Quote from: 1337 on March 12, 2015, 08:24:22 AM
Without magnets it ran for just over 6 minutes letting it go at the same place (touching a board) so i'm assuming the drag on the coils/magnets took energy.
Still its one of the first I had and I have quite a few more, I just need to work on a few parts. Thinking about one earlyer gave me a way to maybe improve on the design but im sticking with the simplest version first.

In case you made a conventional invention (something that does not contradict conventional science) just file a patent with the help of a patent attorney, which will cost you initially about 3000.-- EUR for a national patent. Within a year you have to decide whether you want a patent in other countries as well, which will cost you between 10.000.-- and 100.000.-- EUR depending on the number of countries in which you want protection. But even if you will get a patent, you will probably make no money (you will loose the money spent on the patent), because the patent is the smallest problem. Your big problem is production and most importantly marketing. If you are not the money making type, just forget the idea or go to an enterprise with it. But be aware of the fact, that good ideas are usually stolen by the people who have the means to produce and to market something.


If you think that you have discovered something outside conventional science (e.g. an OU device, whatever that means) you should immediately go public with your idea in order to test it by discussion and replication by others. And you will discover within days (if you disclose it intelligently) or within months (if you mess around with partial discloure) that your idea was nonsense, a delusion or an error.

Sorry, this is the hard truth. I observe the "OU scene" since at least twenty years and all alleged OU-devices (or devices allegedly contradicting conventional science) turned out to be nonsense, delusion or error. There is also fraud, but that is easily detected.

By all means do tests, do build contraptions, but be open with it and you will save yourself a lot of time, money and grieve. There is an enormous body of knowledge in science which no man can know all. Therefore you need discussion and replication of your ideas (in case they are really unconventional).


There are limits to science, but they are so far out, that you need huge resources to explore them. The unknown is out in space (dark matter, dark energy) and deep down in the particle world (below the atomic level, yet unknown particles and properties of matter and space). You need space telescopes or a particle accelerator, which is both hard to do at home. Of course there a millions of details in all sciences which still have to be worked out, but you need to train yourself for years in a very special area of science and you also need equipment which can not be set up at home unless you are a millionaire (which I guess you still have to become).

Do not give up, but be sensible and try to have a realistic outlook on the world.


If you want to become rich:

- marry a rich wife or
- sell drugs or weapons or
- buy something for 1000.-- and sell it for 5000.-- and from these 5% you will live well


Greetings, Conrad

Quote from: 1337 on March 12, 2015, 08:24:22 AM
Without magnets it ran for just over 6 minutes letting it go at the same place (touching a board) so i'm assuming the drag on the coils/magnets took energy.
Still its one of the first I had and I have quite a few more, I just need to work on a few parts. Thinking about one earlyer gave me a way to maybe improve on the design but im sticking with the simplest version first.

6 minutes without magnets and 5 minutes with the magnets sure seems to say that the magnets made the device less efficient to me.

Sorry for offtopic but I need help.
I have a few such heaters from old electric kettles : https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTVpAb-1hcRDM2tOPXCpM4WrCSsLaHohETvGA_4uzYS7O-XcogBhA


I measured they have 26 ohm resistance and 90uH inductance.  They are rated at 230V AC 2000W each


How can I compute heat dissipation of this heater for various AC frequencies  ? I'd like to power them from high frequency inverter without having to store energy in bi capacitor and converting into 50Hz AC, but I couldn't find any article about behaviour of nichrome wire in inductive coil arragement at high frequency.


MarkE , can you help ? I think it's very interesting topic.

Quote from: forest on March 13, 2015, 04:06:33 AM
Sorry for offtopic but I need help.
I have a few such heaters from old electric kettles : https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTVpAb-1hcRDM2tOPXCpM4WrCSsLaHohETvGA_4uzYS7O-XcogBhA


I measured they have 26 ohm resistance and 90uH inductance.  They are rated at 230V AC 2000W each


How can I compute heat dissipation of this heater for various AC frequencies  ? I'd like to power them from high frequency inverter without having to store energy in bi capacitor and converting into 50Hz AC, but I couldn't find any article about behaviour of nichrome wire in inductive coil arragement at high frequency.


MarkE , can you help ? I think it's very interesting topic.

Nichrome has a temperature coefficient of 0.04%/C so your 26 Ohms cold is slightly high for say 200C rise.  So we'll figure you had a couple tenths of an Ohm in your test leads and go with 26.5 Ohms hot for R in the equations below which is the computed resistance for 2kW at 230Vac rms.  In order to get at least 1000W from the heating element we want 2*pi*f*L <= 26.5 Ohms, so an f_1000W for you would be: 

f_1000W = 26.5/(2*pi*90uH) = 46.9kHz.

For power at any other frequency:

Use R = 26.5 Ohms

X_L = 2*pi*f*L 
theta = atan( X_L/R )
Z = (X_L² + R²)^0.5.
P_APPARENT52.9E3 V²/Z. 
P_REAL = cos(theta) * P_APPARENT

All that said, I can't think of a good reason to feed high frequency AC to a heating element.  Why not use a HF inverter, and then feed DC to the coils?  230VDC will get you 2kW.

MarkE


Can you explain how you get the formula for apparent power PAPPARENT52.9E3 V2/Z.
What does 52.9E^3 factor mean ?
How did you got that nice graph ?

As you posted for example at 46,9khz 1000W of power is dissipated on this heater. Is there any energy dissipated at this frequency by inductance magnetic field ?

Quote from: forest on March 13, 2015, 07:31:31 AM
MarkE


Can you explain how you get the formula for apparent power PAPPARENT52.9E3 V2/Z.
What does 52.9E^3 factor mean ?
How did you got that nice graph ?

P_APPARENT is the product of the rms voltage:  230Vac rms, and the rms current: 230Vac rms/Z.  It is the apparent power uncorrected for the phase shift caused by the inductance.
52,300 is (230Vac rms)².
I made a spreadsheet to generate the graph.  It uses the same formulas that I posted.

Quote from: forest on March 13, 2015, 07:39:44 AM
As you posted for example at 46,9khz 1000W of power is dissipated on this heater. Is there any energy dissipated at this frequency by inductance magnetic field ?

Inductance by definition only stores energy.  It does not dissipate energy.  Any energy dissipated will look like resistance. 

The more important thing here is that there is no reason to try and drive high frequency current through the heaters.  Build a power converter at whatever frequency is convenient, then filter that and feed it to your coils.  Steady DC puts the least mechanical stress on the ressitance wire anyway, and it makes filtering the EMI easier. 

I assume that building multi-kW power converters is something new to you.  The old school method would be a triac type heating control which you can just buy off the shelf for relatively low cost. Instead of PWM'ing the triac heater controllers operate complete half cycles.  They switch at the AC zero crossing.  As a result, the EMI is low as is the cost.  They rely on the thermal inertia of the thermal load to average out the temperature.  If it takes 10 minutes to heat something up by 200C, then the 1/100th of one second represented by a 50Hz half cycle with the heat on or off only changes the temperature by a fraction of a percent.

Hmm..I've got 1096W real power at 46,9khz from your formula. Why such difference of 96W ?

MarkE


Thanks for advice.Sorry, but I will try that stupid path of high frequency first - it simplify many aspects. Actuall I think it may be easier then I thought.
You said inductance store energy. That's correct, but at such high frequency it will flip poles 46900 times per second. I hope you see what I'm about ;-)
I've got what I've got - plenty of coil wound resistive heaters and only few expensive (fortunately found at scrap yard at low price) diodes.


Thank You for your help MarkE. You are GREAT!

Forest,


You should do a bit more analysis IMHO. RF frequency forces any RF current to flow in the surface of a wire conductor.
I'd wonder about the distribution of current there because if more flows in the surface the conductor, it could overheat
and create surface oxidation in the heater element, causing the surface to oxidize and perhaps flake off. Unfortunately
this is known as Skin Effect and wikipedia drops out of analytic mode before it gets to nichrome, because it has human
shock effects of the same reason.


I think would want to find a cheap slow power diode that can down convert AC at your frequency. Perhaps one would
suffice, which doesn't cause the final amp circuitry to increase in temperature.



:S:MarkSCoffman

Quote from: forest on March 13, 2015, 08:10:42 AM
Hmm..I've got 1096W real power at 46,9khz from your formula. Why such difference of 96W ?

The formula is correct:  I get 997.3W woith 26.5 Ohms and 997.1W with 26 Ohms.  You may have rounded pi, or the result of your arc tangent calculation.

X_L = 2*pi*46,900*90E-6 = 26.521 Ohms
X_L/R = 2*pi*46,900*90E-6/26.5 = 1.0008.
theta = atan(2*pi*46,900*90E-6/26.5) = 45.02 degrees.
P_APPARENT = 230²/(2*pi*46,900*90E-6² + 26.5²)^0.5 = 1.41098kW
cos(theta) = .706822
P_REAL = cos(theta) * P_APPARENT = 997.3W

Quote from: mscoffman on March 13, 2015, 10:47:22 AM
Forest,


You should do a bit more analysis IMHO. RF frequency forces any RF current to flow in the surface of a wire conductor.
I'd wonder about the distribution of current there because if more flows in the surface the conductor, it could overheat
and create surface oxidation in the heater element, causing the surface to oxidize and perhaps flake off. Unfortunately
this is known as Skin Effect and wikipedia drops out of analytic mode before it gets to nichrome, because it has human
shock effects of the same reason.


I think would want to find a cheap slow power diode that can down convert AC at your frequency. Perhaps one would
suffice, which doesn't cause the final amp circuitry to increase in temperature.



:S:MarkSCoffman

1) RF penetration depends on the conductivity / resistivity of the conductor.  In a high resistance material like nichrome, the fields penetrate much further than they do in a high conductivity material like copper.

2) Heat is released through the surface, not the core of the conductor.  The interior to exterior temperature of the conductor is worse at low frequency when more power is dissipated in the core of the wire, and then that heat has to travel to the surface where the heat sink (air) is.

3) The slower the diode the less efficient the diode will be, turning the diode and the switching transistors into big heaters.

MarkE


One more question : rectifying such high frequency current with super fast diode bridge will give me rectified AC. Will it be enough to avoid inductive reactance due to coiled heater element ?

Quote from: forest on March 17, 2015, 03:18:00 PM
MarkE


One more question : rectifying such high frequency current with super fast diode bridge will give me rectified AC. Will it be enough to avoid inductive reactance due to coiled heater element ?

Inductance is forever.  Inductance resists any change in the flow of current.  If you chop DC or AC, the resulting signal has the chopped frequency content as well as the original DC or AC.  If you rectify and filter then you can remove the chopping frequency content.  So if you do not filter, as you can see from the graph I published, you will get less maximum power from the same heaters by chopping at any frequency above about 1kHz.

I know you are set on chopping.  That adds a lot of cost and it is not at all clear what value you expect to get for that extra cost and complexity.  If you are heating stuff, the thermal inertia of the oven/stove and material you heat makes a huge low pass filter.  Skipping AC half-cycles is the tried and true: reliable, safe, and low cost way that people control resistance heater driven stoves and ovens.  The circumstances where you would want something with faster response are limited to where you need either ultra-fine resolution, or have a small thermal mass in both the heaters and the things you are heating. 

You should be wary about building big power electronics without first acquiring a fair amount of skill and experience.  An AC half cycle skipping scheme requires only large SSR's with very modest spike protection and appropriate fusing for the power section.  A chopper is many times more complex.  If you want to learn about  chopping I recommend that you make your first project something that operates below 42V and less than 50W power.  230Vac can kill you straight away.  If you make a circuit design or construction mistake there is considerable risk of: electrocution, explosion, and fire.

MarkE


I have a high frequency power source. That's fixed and and all I can do is to change frequency (in some range) but it will always be high frequency. Beside I had hope that by powering resistive heater with HF I may eliminate problem with limescale which is main cause of overheating and damage for such heaters.

Quote from: forest on March 17, 2015, 06:09:52 PM
MarkE


I have a high frequency power source. That's fixed and and all I can do is to change frequency (in some range) but it will always be high frequency. Beside I had hope that by powering resistive heater with HF I may eliminate problem with limescale which is main cause of overheating and damage for such heaters.

Pulsing the heating elements at high frequency should not have any effect on limescale.