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Im sure most of you have seen one,but how many here know how it work's?

Well it's time we found the answer ;)
Most seem to think that the heat generated within the balls of the bearing race,distort the balls shape into an elliptical shape,and cause rotation. But i dont think they have given much thought to this conclusion. If you stop and think about how fast each ball is actually spining,then there is just not enough time for them to change shape that fast-->remember,each ball will do about 10 rotations to each rotation of the shaft. And then there is the fact that in the average bearing race there is 10 to 12 balls. Each of these balls could carry a whole lot of current befor it got even close to glowing red-and there is 10 of them to carry the current.

Below is a video,and here you will see two copper wires on the base that carry the current to the bearings from the conection terminals. So we are expected to believe these two copper wires can carry enough current as to be able to heat 10(high temperature hardened steel balls to the point where they will distort enough to produce enough torque to spin that flywheel up that fast ::)

My belief is that magnetic fields are at play here,and i think it's time we found out for sure. Some might think-whats the point?,but think about it for a while. This motor/device can rotate in either direction on either a DC or AC current,so what kind of magnetic field would allow it's force to be governed by an initial spin?.

I would think right from the start that there will be a large magnetic field around the shaft of the device that is carrying all that current to the other bearing race. I would also think that there would be magnetic fields produced by each one of the four single turn coils(the inner and outer bearing race housings). If this is the case,what would the rotating balls within the housings do to those magnetic fields-->which i might add,would be at right angles to the field produced by the shaft.

Anyway,i built one of these many years ago,and never gave it much thought. But i now realise what significance this could have if it is magnetic fields at play here. Would this offer some sort of proof to the SEG,but opperating in reverse?.

On with the build.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7LOF1GZpdo

Seems to have a lot of torque.  Its odd that current runs through one bearing opposite of the other but both drive the same direction.  Makes me think that the wires could be just connected the the ends of the axle and give it a spin.  Other than that, the balls rotating with current through them must be altering the fields they produce, setting up a continuous push pull field orientation.  But for it to be able to spin either direction regardless of the current direction is the puzzle.

Mags

Glad you popped in Mag's,i was hoping you would.
Here is the first run with the bearing motor.
It dosnt seem to go to well at all on 30 amp's  I have a feeling that it is the aluminum pully upsetting the magnetic fields some how  I also found it odd that the pully got warmer than the bearing housings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkrJ_uI9nWs

New transformer built and tested for the experimenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=916Iy1sZCrE

In this video,we find something quite interesting.
Also it seems that if to much current is applied,then the motor actually slows down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIP_ip0iUjs

I hope to be wrong, but if there were two separate devices in series on the same circuit I do not think one of them would turn as fast as if there was only one on the circuit and with the same value in amperes.
Especially if it's half as fast.

   Silly Tinman,
                   burning PCDD's in the confines of his shed.
    Also looked like at one point he was running a high speed
    rotor without bearing caps?
    Please take care Tinman.
               John.

Quote from: tinman on May 29, 2015, 06:52:50 AM
Glad you popped in Mag's,i was hoping you would.
Here is the first run with the bearing motor.
It dosnt seem to go to well at all on 30 amp's  I have a feeling that it is the aluminum pully upsetting the magnetic fields some how  I also found it odd that the pully got warmer than the bearing housings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkrJ_uI9nWs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkrJ_uI9nWs)

Hey Tin

The bearings in Roberts vid seem larger in diameter. Maybe that is the difference in performance here. ;)   That is a 'maybe'. Since you have said that the pulley was warmer than the bearings, its possible something else is happening to make it turn.

Ive put aside the issue with the idea of current flowing through one bearing differently than the other, being that since the thing will go in either direction, so the bearing current direction should not matter.


How about no pulley? That would narrow things down a bit as to what is happening. If it spins faster, then most likely the pulley is not an actor in the motoring going on. or how about a short axle shaft and bearings closer to the pulley, or just closer to each other.

I have a large bearing from a car belt tensioner ill try some things with. It has been cleaned out and worked in with graphite. So it should move with little effort. These are roller pin bearings.  Im just going to work with the bearing alone first.

Neat stuff though. TK made a vid of one a while back.

It would be good to fully understand the function.  Like, could it be possible to have magnet spheres as the balls in the bearing and if we give it a spin, would it keep on going?  Imagining the fields around the balls as current flows through them, it would be difficult to create a magnet as such.  Just thinking though of the possibilities.

Mags

For some reason, I think this is like a homopolar motor except, there is no magnet.  Unless the shaft is acting as an electromagnet somehow?  I think the bearings are just passing the energy through to the shaft and the balls in the bearing are nothing more than contact areas which allow the current to pass to the shaft.

Total guess on my part though.  Very cool motor Tinman.

Bill

Nice set-up Tinman easy to switch out rotors.
Could you mount 2 magnets around the outside of the armature ,the poles lined up with the legs of the coils wound on it , put some brushes on the commutator, see what comes out?
Also I liked the way you tested for current.LOL.
Great vids thanks.
artv

If in fact the motion happens because of distortion in the ball bearings due to resistance and heat, and there are many convincing explanations of this effect, then it should be possible to make ball bearings from that new non-joulian alloy that has the large magnetostrictive effect when exposed to a magnetic field. a bearing made from this alloy would distort similarly when exposed to a magnetic field?  Would probably need a strong one just the same as you need enough electricity with the plain bearing to drive it.

@tinman


I think the bearing motor seems pretty straight forward however the problem is abstract and a little misleading if we cannot see it for what it is.
It is the Lorentz Force, in the picture below we have a rail gun and if we simply replace the rails with the outer races of our bearings on each end and the projectile with our balls in the bearings we have a two rail rotary rail gun. Now one would think the currents moving in opposite directions at each end bearing would cancel. However fundamentally the moving balls which carry the current in the bearing are the moving projectile as below rolling along the outer race/rails and the inner race and connecting shaft are simply conductors connected to the shaft as below which rotate with the ball in the bearing.


Thus it is really no different than the picture below where the shaft across two parallel rails which carry current moves the shaft which is riding on the conductive rails. Now if in the picture below we simply placed the moving shaft on a conductive ball at each end of the shaft on the rail and the ball moved/rotated with the shaft then we have a linear ball bearing motor very much like our ball bearing motor where the ball/projectile just so happens to rotate around the outer race/rail of the bearing connected to the inner race/shaft. It seems very easy to understand and based on basic well known phenomena. It is just that the complexity of what we think we see has obscured the simplicity of it as is often the case.

AC

Quote from: allcanadian on May 30, 2015, 12:36:13 PM
@tinman


I think the bearing motor seems pretty straight forward however the problem is abstract and a little misleading if we cannot see it for what it is.
It is the Lorentz Force, in the picture below we have a rail gun and if we simply replace the rails with the outer races of our bearings on each end and the projectile with our balls in the bearings we have a two rail rotary rail gun. Now one would think the currents moving in opposite directions at each end bearing would cancel. However fundamentally the moving balls which carry the current in the bearing are the moving projectile as below rolling along the outer race/rails and the inner race and connecting shaft are simply conductors connected to the shaft as below which rotate with the ball in the bearing.


Thus it is really no different than the picture below where the shaft across two parallel rails which carry current moves the shaft which is riding on the conductive rails. Now if in the picture below we simply placed the moving shaft on a conductive ball at each end of the shaft on the rail and the ball moved/rotated with the shaft then we have a linear ball bearing motor very much like our ball bearing motor where the ball/projectile just so happens to rotate around the outer race/rail of the bearing connected to the inner race/shaft. It seems very easy to understand and based on basic well known phenomena. It is just that the complexity of what we think we see has obscured the simplicity of it as is often the case.

AC

And the motor can run in either direction with either a DC or AC current how?

AC has it right, it works on the magnetic component of the Lorentz force.  So, it works just like just about any other motor, they are just making it difficult to visualize how and where the Lorentz force is acting.

However, you have some huge "clues" to arrive at the answer.  You know the force in question has to apply torque to the motor, so you know its direction.  So that limits the places in the motor where torque can actually be applied.  Then all that you have to find is other two orthogonal vectors, the current flow and the magnetic field.  Where does that "fit" in the motor?

Then, ideally you would make a simplified drawing or drawings that explain how the motor works.

I think that it's important to mention that even before you even start, you already know how it works.  That's a fundamental realization.

It's not surprising that when you change the polarity of the applied voltage the motor continues in the same direction.  Figure the motor out, and the reason for this will become self-evident.

Tinman said that it can rotate in either direction.  I did a quick check and I disagree, it looks like the motor will always turn in the same direction, for both a regular and a reversed battery connection.  I looked at the rail gun and noted that the rail gun will also shoot in the same direction when you change the polarity.

Quote from: MileHigh on May 30, 2015, 03:48:39 PM


Tinman said that it can rotate in either direction.  I did a quick check and I disagree, it looks like the motor will always turn in the same direction, for both a regular and a reversed battery connection.  I looked at the rail gun and noted that the rail gun will also shoot in the same direction when you change the polarity.

Quick check?  ::) Tin says it doesnt start till you give it a spin, in either direction of rotation and continues in that direction of rotation no matter the polarity of input. Are you saying he lying? ::)

From what I understand, a rail gun is directional and doesnt require a push start.

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on May 30, 2015, 05:36:40 PM
Quick check?  ::) Tin says it doesnt start till you give it a spin, in either direction of rotation and continues in that direction of rotation no matter the polarity of input. Are you saying he lying? ::)

From what I understand, a rail gun is directional and doesnt require a push start.

Mags

I stand corrected.  If only a metal object, with no magnets, it does need an initial start. 

So, the intial rotation of the balls, sets up some angular fields that corespond to the fields in the rails/races to produce continuous motion.  These offsets of the balls fields most likely become greater with higher speed of rotation, giving more push/pull.

So larger balls, or bearing diameter should be more efficient with this setup I believe. More outer dia torque and the ability for the balls to spin faster giving more offset.

My apologies mh.   my mind was more on coil guns.

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on May 30, 2015, 05:57:35 PM
I stand corrected.  If only a metal object, with no magnets, it does need an initial start. 

So, the intial rotation of the balls, sets up some angular fields that corespond to the fields in the rails/races to produce continuous motion.  These offsets of the balls fields most likely become greater with higher speed of rotation, giving more push/pull.

So larger balls, or bearing diameter should be more efficient with this setup I believe. More outer dia torque and the ability for the balls to spin faster giving more offset.

My apologies mh.   my mind was more on coil guns.

Mags

Mags:

I submit that the balls in the bearing have nothing to do with the rotation.  How do I know this?  I don't, I am just speculating.  I believe that if the bearings were of a thin V groove in the end plates, with the shaft sitting in the V...maybe a little lubrication added, it would spin the same as it is now except for more friction.

I just think the bearing are conducting the power to the shaft and nothing more.

Again, just my thoughts, no evidence or proof here.

Bill

Searl SEG

Mags

Roller or needle bearings will have more surface contact area for less losses at connections of moving parts.

Just seen a vid on yt that shows the addition of mags at the ends of the shaft seems to help with self starting. Just an iron rod with 2 strips of tin foil on a flat surface. With mags on the ends of the rod, self starting. No mags, needs a push. Might want to give that a try on your axle shaft. Different mag polarity may have to be tried on each end to see if it helps or not.

Mags

Quote from: MileHigh on May 30, 2015, 03:48:39 PM
AC has it right, it works on the magnetic component of the Lorentz force.  So, it works just like just about any other motor, they are just making it difficult to visualize how and where the Lorentz force is acting.

QuoteI think that it's important to mention that even before you even start, you already know how it works.  That's a fundamental realization.It's not surprising that when you change the polarity of the applied voltage the motor continues in the same direction.  Figure the motor out, and the reason for this will become self-evident.
Tinman said that it can rotate in either direction.  I did a quick check and I disagree, it looks like the motor will always turn in the same direction, for both a regular and a reversed battery connection.  I looked at the rail gun and noted that the rail gun will also shoot in the same direction when you change the polarity.

Well you better go back to the drawing board on this one MH,as it spins in either direction,and that direction is dependant on which direction you spin it before applying the current.

Quote from: Magluvin on May 30, 2015, 07:25:51 PM
Searl SEG

Mags

It seems you are thinking along the same lines as me Mags,as i made reference to the SEG in my first post. Here we apply current to create magnetic fields which creates rotation,where as the SEG uses magnetic fields to create rotation that creates current.

Im waiting for my device to get liftoff lol.

Spin direction test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_i-HjIx6VM

@tinman
Nice demonstration however I don't think it discounts the Lorentz force completely it simply means it may not apply in the way I had originally thought. I think I have to agree with MH on this one and say it should apply but I have yet to determine exactly how and where and why.


Thanks for doing the demo because this means we can rule out a fair amount of things we can assume should not be happening. I did the basic tests however I am going to have to go back to the drawing board on this one... so it works with AC in both directions and DC in both directions?....Hmm.... that is interesting.


I should have a better solution in the morning.


AC

This is a vid I did just a while ago. It must be showing the same effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56ghlm0oJw

And this is the vid I saw yesterday that shows with and without magnets.  Can FF to the experiment beyond the assembly of foil tracks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH08iDj2yic


It appears that the addition of magnets not only gives self starting, but has more go also.  So there may be an improvement in adding mags to the bearing motor.

Mags

Tinman:

Yes I was not 100% sure that the motor would only run in one direction as reflected in my choice of words.

So what is the reason for stating that it's not surprising that the motor runs the same way when you flip the polarity?  The reason is very simple.  For starters we know that the motor runs because of the Lorentz force.  That force vector is the crossproduct of the current flow with the external magnetic field.   We also know that in this case the current flow itself produces the external magnetic field.  So if you reverse the current flow, you also reverse the direction of the external magnetic field.  So it's like a double-negative and you end up with a force vector in the same direction when you flip the polarity of the applied voltage and do the cross-product.

So that means the motor spins in the same direction if you reverse the applied voltage to the terminals.  So yes the motor will run on AC, but it is certainly not an "AC motor" in the normal sense of that term.

As shown in your clip the motor will run in either direction.  It's just a question of working out the geometry to explain everything.  It's like Bill said, this is just a variation on a homopolar motor like the one people make with a standing AA cell and a paperclip.  It's also just a variation on one of those mislabelled "swirling aquarium water and bubbles" clips.

Somewhere within the bearing structure you have current flow at an angle with the external magnetic field produced by that very same current flow and that is creating a tangential force that results in torque being applied to the motor.   That is the only possible explanation and the real exercise is to figure out and show where it is happening.

MileHigh

Attached is my chicken scratching drawing which is presumably a failed attempt to account for the torque generation.

It's a very bare-bones drawing.  You are looking at a rectangular piece of the axle which looks like a simple wireframe.  There is a B field "vortex" swirling around the end of the axle because of the radial current flowing through the disc of the physical bearing.

Alas, it looks like the axle gets a full 360-degree outward-pulling radial tug that cancels itself out.  That does not put any torque on the axle.

However, you can see the exploration process done in making the drawing.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 01, 2015, 04:52:52 AM
Tinman:

Yes I was not 100% sure that the motor would only run in one direction as reflected in my choice of words.

So what is the reason for stating that it's not surprising that the motor runs the same way when you flip the polarity?  The reason is very simple.  For starters we know that the motor runs because of the Lorentz force.  That force vector is the crossproduct of the current flow with the external magnetic field.   We also know that in this case the current flow itself produces the external magnetic field.  So if you reverse the current flow, you also reverse the direction of the external magnetic field.  So it's like a double-negative and you end up with a force vector in the same direction when you flip the polarity of the applied voltage and do the cross-product.

So that means the motor spins in the same direction if you reverse the applied voltage to the terminals.  So yes the motor will run on AC, but it is certainly not an "AC motor" in the normal sense of that term.

As shown in your clip the motor will run in either direction.  It's just a question of working out the geometry to explain everything.  It's like Bill said, this is just a variation on a homopolar motor like the one people make with a standing AA cell and a paperclip.  It's also just a variation on one of those mislabelled "swirling aquarium water and bubbles" clips.

Somewhere within the bearing structure you have current flow at an angle with the external magnetic field produced by that very same current flow and that is creating a tangential force that results in torque being applied to the motor.   That is the only possible explanation and the real exercise is to figure out and show where it is happening.

MileHigh

This is all well and good MH,but a homopolar motor ia a unidirectional motor,and that direction is dependant on two thing's-current flow direction,or magnetic field orientation. This motor requires no such thing. If i apply a DC current,the motor will still spin in either direction-->what happened to the right hand ruel there ?.

@Tinman


I think I made a little progress, if we look at the rail gun circuit we see we have two rails with a rolling conductor and the conductor experiences a force dependent on the current flow/field. However in our bearing motor the races/rails are circular so the rail has no beginning or end like the rail gun. Thus the current has no preference whether it flows left or right within the bearing race/rails which explains why the motor can operate in either direction.


The AC/DC applied current was also an issue because if the current alternates or reverses direction then we would think the motor direction should as well. However AC currents may produce attractive forces in ferromagnetic materials but repulsive forces in non-ferromagnetic materials through the generation of eddy currents. The problem here, and it is always a problem conceptually is that the current/field is moving. That is the point where the current leaves the outer race is changing, the point where the current enters and leaves the ball bearing is changing and the point where the current enters the inner race is also changing.


Here's an experiment, take a ball and place it on a table then take a ruler and place it on top of the ball and move the ruler. If we move the ruler to the left the ball rolls to the left on the table but rolls to the right on the ruler not unlike our ball bearing. Knowing this we could say that if the ball bearing retained some of it's magnetism then the field generated by the present current path would repel the field in the ball bearing retained by the last current path. Thus AC or DC the ball experiences a turning force not unlike the armature in a shaded pole AC induction motor. It seems reasonable enough considering the circumstances involved.


AC

Quote from: allcanadian on June 01, 2015, 10:06:04 AM
@Tinman


I think I made a little progress, if we look at the rail gun circuit we see we have two rails with a rolling conductor and the conductor experiences a force dependent on the current flow/field. However in our bearing motor the races/rails are circular so the rail has no beginning or end like the rail gun. Thus the current has no preference whether it flows left or right within the bearing race/rails which explains why the motor can operate in either direction.


The AC/DC applied current was also an issue because if the current alternates or reverses direction then we would think the motor direction should as well. However AC currents may produce attractive forces in ferromagnetic materials but repulsive forces in non-ferromagnetic materials through the generation of eddy currents. The problem here, and it is always a problem conceptually is that the current/field is moving. That is the point where the current leaves the outer race is changing, the point where the current enters and leaves the ball bearing is changing and the point where the current enters the inner race is also changing.


Here's an experiment, take a ball and place it on a table then take a ruler and place it on top of the ball and move the ruler. If we move the ruler to the left the ball rolls to the left on the table but rolls to the right on the ruler not unlike our ball bearing. Knowing this we could say that if the ball bearing retained some of it's magnetism then the field generated by the present current path would repel the field in the ball bearing retained by the last current path. Thus AC or DC the ball experiences a turning force not unlike the armature in a shaded pole AC induction motor. It seems reasonable enough considering the circumstances involved.


AC

First up,i to believe that magnetic forces are at work here.
But the thing that needs to be explaind is this-->how dose the initial spin direction determon the direction that the magnetic fields act to create this unidirectional force. It is very important we find out exactly what is happening here. We can look at the device as a whole,and we know that the outer race is a single turn coil,and will produce a magnetic field of one polarity. We also know that the inner race is a single turn coil,and this will produce a magnetic field opposite that of the outer race,as the current(if we look closely) is flowing in the opposite direction to the outer race,and will have the opposite voltage polarity. What i mean by opposite current flow is this-the current will be flowing into the outer race,and out of the inner race,or the opposite way round. The voltage across the bearing races will also be different,and thus 1 will be positive,and the other will be our negative. But what is it in the movement of the balls them self that determonds as to how these magnetic fields are shaped in a way to cause a force in one direction that is higher than that in the other direction?. Then there is the magnetic field along the shaft--what part dose this play?.

Looking at the first video i posted,that motor has quit a bit of torque to get that flywheel up and running so fast so quick. I have looked at the video,and i would say that the bearings i am using now in the second motor are about the same size. I pretty sure that his small transformer would not be putting out the current mine is,as his wire gauge is a lot smaller than what im using,and i have melted some of mine. My  motor has no where near the acceleration of his???. Now,my first motor wouldnt hardly maintain speed ,and yet his picks up speed no problem at all-and fast,but my first motor had an aluminum pulley,and went very slow. My second motor has the steel laminated rotor on it,and it dose pick up speed--much better than the first. The motor in the first video i posted has a larger diameter steel rotor,and that one picks up speed really fast-->i think if he let it go it would fly to pieces from RPM's.I also read one of the comments on his video,and it said-quote: and if you put a few more turns of copper plate around the outside of the bearings,it will spin even faster-the turns not touching each other of course.
I found that to be an interesting comment,as doing that would increase the strength of the magnetic field around the outer race of the bearing.

Anyway,im sure we will work it out,and i have this feeling that the outcome is going to be the reverse of that of the SEG-->although i have always believed that to be another quack job.

Quote from: tinman on June 01, 2015, 10:43:04 AM
First up,i to believe that magnetic forces are at work here.
But the thing that needs to be explaind is this-->how dose the initial spin direction determon the direction that the magnetic fields act to create this unidirectional force.

Like I said earlier, I believe the thing has to be set into motion to provide an offset in the fields.

The way I see it, when we apply current initially, the fields are probably balanced, no motion. But while current is flowing, when the thing is put into motion, the fields in the balls most likely bend the fields produced by the balls, and this offset probably gets greater with speed. So this would explain the how of working in either direction. Spin one way, and the offset is in place for that direction of spin, and likewise the other direction.


When we apply a biasing magnet to the system, the offset is already there. The fields created by currents in the system become altered and off balance without the push start.

Maybe this can be drawn up on FEMM to see what the fields look like, around the balls and the races.  I dont know if there is a FEMM prog that shows fields developed by electrical currents.


In my vid of the magnet rolling on the foil, if it were just a solid iron disk, it probably would not move, until we moved it while current is running through it. 

So it is possible that in the videos of a AA battery with a magnet and a wire simple motors, that the magnet could be replaced by an iron disk, then give it a spin in either direction.  ??? ;D


Mags

Mags

@Tinman


I think the fact that it runs in either direction and runs on AC may negate a unidirectional force as it applies to the basic rail gun circuit. We should remember the races are closed loops acting on multiple ball bearings thus the low resistance current path through the race to each ball bearing is fairly uniform. Logically the races cannot act like a one turn coil when the current/field should act equally in both directions simultaneously around the race to multiple evenly spaced points on the race to the ball bearings. As such all the forces should balance which may explain why it cannot self-start.


The best clue we have yet is that an "Alternating Current" producing a unidirectional force almost exclusively implies an inductive process producing a leading/lagging field phenomena. As well the fact that it will not self-start until a permanent magnetic or induced external magnetic field are present also suggests a leading/lagging field phenomena.

AC

Quote from: Magluvin on June 01, 2015, 12:22:43 PM
Like I said earlier, I believe the thing has to be set into motion to provide an offset in the fields.

The way I see it, when we apply current initially, the fields are probably balanced, no motion. But while current is flowing, when the thing is put into motion, the fields in the balls most likely bend the fields produced by the balls, and this offset probably gets greater with speed. So this would explain the how of working in either direction. Spin one way, and the offset is in place for that direction of spin, and likewise the other direction.


When we apply a biasing magnet to the system, the offset is already there. The fields created by currents in the system become altered and off balance without the push start.

Maybe this can be drawn up on FEMM to see what the fields look like, around the balls and the races.  I dont know if there is a FEMM prog that shows fields developed by electrical currents.


In my vid of the magnet rolling on the foil, if it were just a solid iron disk, it probably would not move, until we moved it while current is running through it. 

So it is possible that in the videos of a AA battery with a magnet and a wire simple motors, that the magnet could be replaced by an iron disk, then give it a spin in either direction.  ??? ;D


Mags

Mags

QuoteLike I said earlier, I believe the thing has to be set into motion to provide an offset in the fields.

The way I see it, when we apply current initially, the fields are probably balanced, no motion. But while current is flowing, when the thing is put into motion, the fields in the balls most likely bend the fields produced by the balls, and this offset probably gets greater with speed. So this would explain the how of working in either direction. Spin one way, and the offset is in place for that direction of spin, and likewise the other direction.

This statement is very important,and the sole reason i have spent the time on this project. In this situation we need to apply an electrical current to create magnetic field's.
Now,think about this very carfully
For this motor to work,it dose NOT need an AC current. This motor will work just as well on a direct current<--Do you know what that means??. This means that the magnetic fields being created do not change. This also means that if we know what and where these magnetic fields are,we can replace the DC current that creates these magnetic fields with PM's.

Im hoping MH will stick with us on this one,as i believe that an all magnet motor could actually be designed from this bearing motor. There is no magnetic field created by DC current that cannot be created by PM's. I believe that MH him self said that the fields within a DC electromagnet are no different to that of a PM's field.

Why dose it take a DC current to create the magnetic field around the wire to get the simple 1 battery homopolar motor spining?. What is different to the field around the wire carrying the current than of the field around a PM?.

Tomorrow i will try placeing a PM on the outer bearing housing,and see what happens. Then i will place one on the shaft near the inner race,and see what happens.

Check out this guy.  He should enter into the next pulse motor build off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSlgoyro520

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJtHyv2Rqo

Well I am going to run with AC's rail-gun-bearing-race analogy.

For starters, the bearing version is not as "clean" as the rail gun.  In the rail gun, each rail has current flow only up to the point of were the sliding cross-bar conductor is.  There is no current flow past the current position of the sliding cross-bar.   But in a circular bearing, the current can be sourced both from behind and ahead of the moving ball bearing, and that screws up the "required" magnetic field that you need to interact with the current flowing across the ball bearing.

Nevertheless, let's just put that problem aside and imagine that the two races of the ball bearing act like the rails in a rail gun.  In other words, they generate the required orthogonal magnetic field relative to the current flowing across the ball bearing.

I am ignoring the problems to get here:   You can model the force on the ball bearing as a single vector pushing tangentially on the dead center of the bearing.   If the ball bearing "sticks" to the inner race and "pushes on" the outer race then let's say that the outer ring of the ball bearing rotates clockwise while the axle remains fixed.  However, if the ball bearing "sticks" to the outer race and "pushes on" the inner race, then we can say that the axle will turn clockwise and the outer ring of the ball bearing remains fixed.  Note however, if the axle must remain fixed, then the outer ring of the ball bearing will turn counter-clockwise instead.

So, what this means is that if you assume that the bearings experience force because of the current flow, then the same force on the bearings can give you a motor that turns clockwise or counter-clockwise.  The spin direction will be determined by which way you start the motor with a push.  It depends if the bearings "stick" on the inner race and "push" on the outer race or vice-vera.

Hey Milehigh


Thank you for that link MH--https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJtHyv2Rqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJtHyv2Rqo)[/color][/font]


You know I could listen to inventors like Bill French talk all day because these guys have their feet planted firmly on the ground and yet their head way up in the clouds. It's these kinds of sincere people with so much knowledge and so many dreams that just make my day.


If there is one thing I think we can all agree on it is that at the end of the day it has to be real, it has to reasonable and understandable. We have more than enough wild ass theories out there but today we need things that work. I like your last post as well... stick and push, I never thought of that in this device however I had considered the concept in another context. Levitation was one and if an object is bouncing between two boundary conditions then one part of the time it isn't actually touching anything. It is levitating with very little friction just not all the time which kind put's a new spin on the concept of all or nothing.


AC

Quote from: tinman on June 01, 2015, 02:26:47 PM
This statement is very important,and the sole reason i have spent the time on this project. In this situation we need to apply an electrical current to create magnetic field's.
Now,think about this very carfully
For this motor to work,it dose NOT need an AC current. This motor will work just as well on a direct current<--Do you know what that means??. This means that the magnetic fields being created do not change. This also means that if we know what and where these magnetic fields are,we can replace the DC current that creates these magnetic fields with PM's.

Im hoping MH will stick with us on this one,as i believe that an all magnet motor could actually be designed from this bearing motor. There is no magnetic field created by DC current that cannot be created by PM's. I believe that MH him self said that the fields within a DC electromagnet are no different to that of a PM's field.

Why dose it take a DC current to create the magnetic field around the wire to get the simple 1 battery homopolar motor spining?. What is different to the field around the wire carrying the current than of the field around a PM?.

Tomorrow i will try placeing a PM on the outer bearing housing,and see what happens. Then i will place one on the shaft near the inner race,and see what happens.

Imagine current flowing in the balls of the bearing, say from the outer race to the inner race, while the bearing is stationary. Each ball bearing will have a field around them like say the rings of saturn. The field spin will be on axis with the current flow. So when we give the bearing a spin, the rings around saturn will tilt a bit, become off axis. This is the offset Im thinking of.  Ac or DC, doesnt matter. Once set in motion, the offsets and race fields will still be set in a way that what ever current direction may be, all of the fields developed by the balls and races just reverse, causing continued rotation with each phase of current flow. DC is probably best. Not sure yet. AC may cause more heat due to fluctuating fields in the bearing material.

Mags

Quote from: MileHigh on June 01, 2015, 02:35:49 PM
Check out this guy.  He should enter into the next pulse motor build off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSlgoyro520 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSlgoyro520)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJtHyv2Rqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJtHyv2Rqo)

OK.  I read the info in the link from the video and I get how it spins...but how the hell does it levitate?  Energy comes from solar cells but...those other levitating devices take some real power so...how is this hovering?????????  I saw no pm in the base at all and certainly no electro-mag.  I am very impressed and confused at the same time.  If I had $145, I would buy one.

Bill

Quote from: tinman on June 01, 2015, 02:26:47 PM


Tomorrow i will try placeing a PM on the outer bearing housing,and see what happens. Then i will place one on the shaft near the inner race,and see what happens.

Its possible that placing one mag somewhere on the outer race may not produce an equal offset on all the balls. Try anyway though.  Im thinking one at the end of the shaft, like N or S in and one at the other end of the shaft, trying N then S in. Same poles in, say N in, then the whole shaft will emanate N field.  Then also a N in on one end and S in on the other could be the way to go also.

Then again, it may not help at all. lol   So try as many mag positions as possible as to not miss anything.  If the mags help but self starting doesnt work but seems to bias the rotor more in one direction than the other, then a stronger mag is needed.

Mags

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2015, 07:59:15 PM
OK.  I read the info in the link from the video and I get how it spins...but how the hell does it levitate?  Energy comes from solar cells but...those other levitating devices take some real power so...how is this hovering?????????  I saw no pm in the base at all and certainly no electro-mag.  I am very impressed and confused at the same time.  If I had $145, I would buy one.

Bill

It's floating in fluid Bill. ;)

Quote from: tinman on June 01, 2015, 10:09:04 PM
It's floating in fluid Bill. ;)

Oh...Duh!  I read about the sphere within the sphere but it looked like he was so careful in placing it on the stand like it was in hover position.  I just looked again and...who the heck would pay 140 bucks for that?

OK, now I feel stupid.

Thanks for the explanation Brad.

Bill

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 01, 2015, 10:49:14 PM
Oh...Duh!  I read about the sphere within the sphere but it looked like he was so careful in placing it on the stand like it was in hover position.  I just looked again and...who the heck would pay 140 bucks for that?

OK, now I feel stupid.

Thanks for the explanation Brad.

Bill

Lol,all good,as i was wondering the same thing -until i watched the second video lol.

Quote from: Magluvin on June 01, 2015, 09:31:14 PM
Its possible that placing one mag somewhere on the outer race may not produce an equal offset on all the balls. Try anyway though.  Im thinking one at the end of the shaft, like N or S in and one at the other end of the shaft, trying N then S in. Same poles in, say N in, then the whole shaft will emanate N field.  Then also a N in on one end and S in on the other could be the way to go also.

Then again, it may not help at all. lol   So try as many mag positions as possible as to not miss anything.  If the mags help but self starting doesnt work but seems to bias the rotor more in one direction than the other, then a stronger mag is needed.

Mags

Mag's,MH-anyone.
Im looking at the homopolar motor(the simple 1 battery/magnet combo),and i see a uniform magnetic field around the wire,immersed in a uniform magnetic field around the PM. How dose this create a force in one direction to create the motoring effect?.The battery is only there to create a current flow that creates a magnetic field around the wire-correct?

Quote from: tinman on June 02, 2015, 12:22:00 AM
Mag's,MH-anyone.
Im looking at the homopolar motor(the simple 1 battery/magnet combo),and i see a uniform magnetic field around the wire,immersed in a uniform magnetic field around the PM. How dose this create a force in one direction to create the motoring effect?.The battery is only there to create a current flow that creates a magnetic field around the wire-correct?

Yeah, weird stuff.  I wonder if we eliminate the mag, if the wire would spin in either direction, with a little push.

I believe the field of the side of the magnet that is touching the battery is attracted to the battery like a core and that field flowers out from the sides of the battery. Say it is N contacting the battery, then the outside surface of the battery emanates N pole field all around it. So now we have the wire with current flowing wile it is constantly in that N field and the wire moves. Faraday. ;)

Ill try and do some tests as I get time to do so. 

Mags

Quote from: tinman on June 02, 2015, 12:22:00 AM
Mag's,MH-anyone.
Im looking at the homopolar motor(the simple 1 battery/magnet combo),and i see a uniform magnetic field around the wire,immersed in a uniform magnetic field around the PM. How dose this create a force in one direction to create the motoring effect?.The battery is only there to create a current flow that creates a magnetic field around the wire-correct?

Just make a diagram of the homopolar motor and work it out for yourself like I tried a few postings ago for the bearing motor.  Before you tackle the bearing motor you want to be able to explain the homopolar motor and you may as well throw in explaining the aquarium vortex and bubbles business if you want.

All of the basic concepts have already been stated in the past week, so there is no point in repeating them.  It just a question of applying the concepts to the homopolar motor setup.

Quote from: tinman on June 02, 2015, 12:22:00 AM
Mag's,MH-anyone.
Im looking at the homopolar motor(the simple 1 battery/magnet combo),and i see a uniform magnetic field around the wire,immersed in a uniform magnetic field around the PM. How dose this create a force in one direction to create the motoring effect?.The battery is only there to create a current flow that creates a magnetic field around the wire-correct?

The one I made was simple.  Just a D cell with a metal screw held onto the bottom via the flux from a neo cylinder which was hanging from the screw.  Just touch the frayed end of a wire from the + on the bat. to the mag. and it spins up very fast.  I never did try to reverse polarity to see if it spun the other way.  I can give that a try.

Bill

PS  I should add that I have no idea why this works like it does.

And the novice here was wondering what you brainiacs were on.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 02, 2015, 01:27:36 AM
Just make a diagram of the homopolar motor and work it out for yourself like I tried a few postings ago for the bearing motor.  Before you tackle the bearing motor you want to be able to explain the homopolar motor and you may as well throw in explaining the aquarium vortex and bubbles business if you want.

All of the basic concepts have already been stated in the past week, so there is no point in repeating them.  It just a question of applying the concepts to the homopolar motor setup.

OK,so now all you have to do MH is explain as to how the bearing motor will spin in either direction,where as the homopolar motors direction of spin is determond by the direction of current flow,or the orientation of the magnetic fields.

I have looked at many diagrams as to how the homopolar motor is suppose to work,and it still dose not answer the question as to how the uniform stationary magnetic field around the wire creates a unidirectional force against the uniform magnetic field around the magnet. I see lots of pretty arrows around the wire and the PM,and all explanations say that the field around the wire pushes against the field lines of the PM-->the PM has no field line's,it is a uniform field. Mag's experiment also shows that something is being missed here.

I dont think anyone has actually stood back and had a good look at the homopolar motor,they just except what some one else has told them.

Now,below is a pic showing the fields and force direction of the homopolar motor.
So,we have an even uniform field around the magnet(there are no field lines),and we have a uniform field around the current carrying wire. We also see an arrow showing a force direction.
So please explain to me how this force is not uniform around the wire-->why is this force in only one direction when the two fields are uniform. Why dose the arrow showing force not point backwards-why dose it point forward?. This is like sticking your finger through the side of a bucket of water,and saying there is more pressure on one side of your finger than there is on the other.

Could this be related?

http://revolution-green.com/magnetic-fields-create-fluid-flows-particle-suspensions/

@Bill

QuoteOh...Duh!  I read about the sphere within the sphere but it looked like he was
so careful in placing it on the stand like it was in hover position.  I just
looked again and...who the heck would pay 140 bucks for that?

OK, now I feel stupid.

Welcome to the human race and I catch myself all the time making assumptions concerning things I think I see that just ain't true. I like that globe because it is unintuitive and is a good example of how our mind is constantly playing tricks on us. I mean when I first saw the globe rotating on the stand in the video I fell for it hook, line and sinker and even after I knew exactly how it worked I still found it mesmerizing because the illusion is flawless.
I think the homopolar motor and the ball bearing motor are similar in nature because we know it must be very easy to understand fundamentally however our mind will not allow us to accept it for what it is due to our perspective. Our mind starts creating unworkable solutions then tries to justify them not unlike believing a globe can magically hover and rotate on a plexiglass stand which we know cannot work but there it is working. As I said I like these kinds of illusions because it gives us some valuable insight into how we perceive things and how easy it is to make false assumptions.
AC

@Tinman

Quote

Now,below is a pic showing the fields and force direction of the homopolar
motor.
So,we have an even uniform field around the magnet(there are no field
lines),and we have a uniform field around the current carrying wire. We also see
an arrow showing a force direction.
So please explain to me how this force is
not uniform around the wire-->why is this force in only one direction when
the two fields are uniform. Why dose the arrow showing force not point
backwards-why dose it point forward?. This is like sticking your finger through
the side of a bucket of water,and saying there is more pressure on one side of
your finger than there is on the other.

Below is a similar picture describing the direction of force found in every DC motor and as you can see only the layout has changed. The homoplar motor is a simple DC motor however our mind cannot put it into the proper perspective because we cannot connect the dots as easily as in the picture below.

AC

The spinning globes are great, and they want some margins after spending all that development money!  One thing that is worth mentioning is that the inner globe is floating on two oils, one is more dense than the other.  That's the solution to the vertical stabilization problem.   If you had a keen eye, you might be able to see the boundary layer between the two oils.

You figure that this novelty item could possibly spin for tens or even hundreds of years!   He also mentioned that the motor can run on as low as one microwatt of power.  I wonder how close Lidmotor has gotten to one microwatt.  Perhaps he has already done it.

As a far fetched guess, you wonder if after 100 years a thriving bacterial colony might be living inside the globe.  They would just genetically adapt to the new harsh environment.

Quote from: allcanadian on June 02, 2015, 11:35:17 AM
@Tinman
Below is a similar picture describing the direction of force found in every DC motor and as you can see only the layout has changed. The homoplar motor is a simple DC motor however our mind cannot put it into the proper perspective because we cannot connect the dots as easily as in the picture below.

AC

I think it may be more like the second pic I modified from the one you posted.  I dont believe the field lines below the current carrying wire would bow outward(down) from the wire.  Above the wire, the field lines of the current carrying wire are in the same direction as the field lines of the magnets. So I believe the field lines of the wire push away(upward) the field lines of the magnets, because like fields on a similar path push away from each other. Same as the field coming out of the pole of a magnet, they want to expand away from each other. Slice that magnet down the middle, pole to pole, having 2 N on top and 2 S on the bottom, and the 2 halves will want to push away from each other. ;)

Mags

QuoteSo please explain to me how this force is not uniform around the wire

There is nothing to explain again.  Just look at how the Lorentz force works from my favourite guy and apply it to the homopolar motor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fbhcdS328c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fbhcdS328c)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fnq8TGbTfE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fnq8TGbTfE)

I did a partial markup of the your graphic where I added the missing wire.  Just add the missing force to the diagram and see what you get.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 02, 2015, 12:43:13 PM
There is nothing to explain again.  Just look at how the Lorentz force works from my favourite guy and apply it to the homopolar motor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fbhcdS328c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fbhcdS328c)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fnq8TGbTfE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fnq8TGbTfE)

I did a partial markup of the your graphic where I added the missing wire.  Just add the missing force to the diagram and see what you get.

In your pic, wouldnt the other wire(added to the left) with current going upward want to go CCW(top view) while the wire to the right wants to go CW?

Mags

Edit   Ok, you have corrected the drawing so current flows down in the left hand wire..  The pic disappeared for a bit while I was copying, so you must have edited it.

Quote from: Magluvin on June 02, 2015, 12:57:59 PM
In your pic, wouldnt the other wire(added to the left) with current going upward want to go CCW(top view) while the wire to the right wants to go CW?

Mags

Edit   Ok, you have corrected the drawing so current flows down in the left hand wire..  The pic disappeared for a bit while I was copying, so you must have edited it.

Ah-see-->bingo right there mag's. If that pic is now correct,then how did your magnet roll when your setup resembled the first modified pic,where the current flow went up the left wire,not down.

Well because of my initial mistake with the direction of the current in the added wire, I was flummoxed when the motor initially did not work when I checked it in my head.  Then I discovered my mistake and edited the diagram.

The mistake turned me into an inventor.  AC would be proud.  It might not be penicillin, but my error allowed me to stumble into bold new realms.  I present to you the "Grasshopper Oscillator."

QuoteOK,so now all you have to do MH is explain as to how the bearing motor will spin in either direction,where as the homopolar motors direction of spin is determond by the direction of current flow,or the orientation of the magnetic fields.

I gave you a possible explanation for that in post #33.

QuoteI have looked at many diagrams as to how the homopolar motor is suppose to work,and it still dose not answer the question as to how the uniform stationary magnetic field around the wire creates a unidirectional force against the uniform magnetic field around the magnet. I see lots of pretty arrows around the wire and the PM,and all explanations say that the field around the wire pushes against the field lines of the PM-->the PM has no field line's,it is a uniform field. Mag's experiment also shows that something is being missed here.

I dont think anyone has actually stood back and had a good look at the homopolar motor,they just except what some one else has told them.

Now,below is a pic showing the fields and force direction of the homopolar motor.
So,we have an even uniform field around the magnet(there are no field lines),and we have a uniform field around the current carrying wire. We also see an arrow showing a force direction.
So please explain to me how this force is not uniform around the wire-->why is this force in only one direction when the two fields are uniform. Why dose the arrow showing force not point backwards-why dose it point forward?. This is like sticking your finger through the side of a bucket of water,and saying there is more pressure on one side of your finger than there is on the other.

Is how the homopolar motor works clear to you now?  Did you "fill in the blanks" when you add the second wire?

QuoteWhy dose the arrow showing force not point backwards-why dose it point forward?

Why does the force point in the direction it points in?  Have you mastered the business about the Lorentz force and the associated cross-product between the current flow and the external magnetic field?

If you are going to move forward then you need to understand how the homopolar motor works and it all should be as clear as a bell to you.  To me it seems like you get stopped at the first hurdle you come across and then right away you are suggesting that there is some "monkeyshines" solution to explain what you are observing.  The reality is that it's never the case.  Instead of waiting for someone to spoon-feed you the answer to get yourself past the first hurdle you need to put the effort in to work through the problem and arrive at a solution that you understand from the ground up.

The homopolar motor is a trivial example of the interaction between an external magnetic field and a current-carrying wire.  It needs to be understood fully.

So, Brad, why am I pushing this issue?

It's because of bullshit like this:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAl1LVPbYhY

That's good old "Al" a.k.a. "ACCA."   In the clip he says, "A tornado type of magnetic field that is unknown to science."

All that he is doing is showing his ignorance about magnetic fields and his stupidity when he "makes up" a bunch of incorrect crap to supposedly explain the swirling water and bubbles in his many "aquarium" clips.

"I see swirling water in my experiment therefore the magnetic field must be a spinning vortex" is just plain stupidity.  Chances are Al never opened up a book to try to figure out what was going on and he is displaying his ignorance and his foolish arrogance by "teaching" people complete BS.  That crap has to be fixed and I realize that it is a continuous uphill battle on a free energy forum.

I see you did what everyone else dose when i ask the question MH,your answer is just to quote the lorentz force without explaining why the lorentz force acts in only one direction. The lorentz force direction is an aplication,not an answer. It is just the same with the magnetic field-->we dont know what the magnetic force is-it just is.

Below is a pic of the magnetic field around a current carrying wire. The field is uniform,and the arrows mean nothing. There is also a pic of the field around a PM.You will see a red dot-that is our current carrying wire touching the center of a rod magnet. So picture the wire coming from your eyes,and going straight into the magnet. So as we can see,we have a static field around the wire imerced in a static field around the rod magnet. We apply current and the magnet spins.

So now,why is the force from the wire pushing on one side of the magnetic field of the magnet,and not the other side with the same amount of force-when both magnetic fields are uniform. The field from the magnet is exactly the same in front of the wire as it is behind the wire. The field around the wire is also uniform. So why is there a force in the direction of the green arrow,and not the blue arrow-as everything is the same as far as fields go.

And since when did applying a force to a magnetic field cause the magnet to spin?<--in this situation. The same should apply in reverse. We should be able to spin the magnet,and create a force-right?. No ,we cant,because the field on either side of the wire is uniform.

It's like i said,most dont stop and have a really good look at what there being asked to accept.
This is much like the homopolar generator-why do you have to spin it to get current from it. Why dosnt it matter wether or not the magnets spin with the disk?. The reasons given are just another hack job at what isnt yet understood,and that is the magnetic field.

QuoteI see you did what everyone else dose when i ask the question MH,your answer is just to quote the lorentz force without explaining why the lorentz force acts in only one direction. The lorentz force direction is an aplication,not an answer. It is just the same with the magnetic field-->we dont know what the magnetic force is-it just is.

What do you mean by "only acting in one direction?"  A force can only act in one direction.

It all stems from the fact that there is a force on a charged particle when it is moving in a magnetic field.  Here is a three video set explaining it all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdh2srqH57M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdh2srqH57M)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w41Zijsv46o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w41Zijsv46o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVzfTAK8fk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVzfTAK8fk)

The Lorentz force is an extrapolation of the analysis of the forces on moving charged particles because a stream of moving charged particles is the very definition of electric current.

The real issue is this:  Look at the geometry of the wire and look at the geometry of the magnetic field and then apply the Lorentz force equation to the particular setup and determine the outcome for the homopolar motor.  The homopolar motor and the silly spinning aquarium "vortex"  are easily explainable through understanding the Lorentz forces at play.

If you balk at this then it's just the same old pattern on your part where you refuse to accept something until you understand it.  Just put in the work to understand it and then apply it to the homopolar motor.  You should get to the point where you understand exactly how the homopolar motor works after examining the setup for a few minutes in your head.

If you get how the homopolar motor works then I challenge you to explain the silly "magnetic vortex" business in Acca's aquarium videos all by yourself.

Here are the 2 bearings I spoke of earlier. Grease is cleaned out and worked in graphite. They spin when the wind blows.  ;D

Will try some things tonight. The larger diameter will allow the rollers to spin faster during race rotation. If the fields in the balls/rollers tilt as I had suggested, then the tilt should be more with higher roller rpms.  Also coming up with a test using an iron disk to emulate a ball in a bearing. Will set it up on a drive motor with a + brush on top edge and - brush on bottom edge and see if we can detect(compass?) if there is any tilt during rotation of the disk.  By tilt I mean, being the balls/rollers/disk is iron, it is possible the iron is dragging the fields created by the currents, causing them to be offset while in motion as compared to stationary.  Its possible copper(non magnetic) instead of iron may produce a dragging effect(due to lenz) also, if the theory is good.

Mags

QuoteBelow is a pic of the magnetic field around a current carrying wire. The field is uniform,and the arrows mean nothing. There is also a pic of the field around a PM.You will see a red dot-that is our current carrying wire touching the center of a rod magnet. So picture the wire coming from your eyes,and going straight into the magnet. So as we can see,we have a static field around the wire imerced in a static field around the rod magnet. We apply current and the magnet spins.

Why would you say that the arrows mean nothing when in fact the arrows are critical information and mean nearly everything?

QuoteSo now,why is the force from the wire pushing on one side of the magnetic field of the magnet,and not the other side with the same amount of force-when both magnetic fields are uniform. The field from the magnet is exactly the same in front of the wire as it is behind the wire. The field around the wire is also uniform. So why is there a force in the direction of the green arrow,and not the blue arrow-as everything is the same as far as fields go.

Feel free to make an actual technical argument like you are suggesting above.  Please go ahead and explain your thinking for there to be two forces, one in the direction of the green arrow, and one in the direction of the blue arrow.  Text only will not cut it, you need to advance your argument with diagrams with a complete explanation.

You state "everything is the same as far as the fields go" with respect to the full setup with the magnet and the current-carrying wired that goes into the center of the magnet as per your diagram.  Is everything really the same?  Look at the setup again and show how "everything is the same."

QuoteAnd since when did applying a force to a magnetic field cause the magnet to spin?<--in this situation. The same should apply in reverse. We should be able to spin the magnet,and create a force-right?. No ,we cant,because the field on either side of the wire is uniform.

The above text has seriously flawed logic to the point that it doesn't even make sense.  So your first step would be to rewrite your statement so that it at least makes sense, and then we can examine your statement to see what's up.

QuoteIt's like i said,most dont stop and have a really good look at what there being asked to accept.
This is much like the homopolar generator-why do you have to spin it to get current from it. Why dosnt it matter wether or not the magnets spin with the disk?. The reasons given are just another hack job at what isnt yet understood,and that is the magnetic field.

Nope, it's more like you don't understand and you take a position that magnetic fields are not understood well enough to explain various observed phenomena.  You use it like a proverbial "Get out of Jail Free" card to avoid just doing the required work to understand what's going on.  All of these concepts build up layer by layer where you start with the most basic situations and then use that knowledge to explain more complex situations on the higher up layers.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 03, 2015, 02:31:09 PM

QuoteWhy would you say that the arrows mean nothing when in fact the arrows are critical information and mean nearly everything?

Well feel free to tell me what the arrows mean MH. We know that they dont mean north/south.
Let me take a guess here-->they represent flow-!right!. Ok,well then tell me,the flow of what?.

QuoteFeel free to make an actual technical argument like you are suggesting above.  Please go ahead and explain your thinking for there to be two forces, one in the direction of the green arrow, and one in the direction of the blue arrow.  Text only will not cut it, you need to advance your argument with diagrams with a complete explanation.

I wasnt making a claim MH,i was asking a question-->one that you need to answer.
How is a force generated in 1 direction when the magnetic field from the PM is equal in strength and flow on each side of the wire,and that wire has a uniform field around it-->both depicted by the pretty arrows.

QuoteYou state "everything is the same as far as the fields go" with respect to the full setup with the magnet and the current-carrying wired that goes into the center of the magnet as per your diagram.  Is everything really the same?  Look at the setup again and show how "everything is the same."

This i have explained above,but lets try and explain it using water flow.
We have a stream of water flowing downward(lets say a water fall),This is the PM's field,then we have this jet of water (the field around the wire)being shot into our water fall at right angles. So now,how do we get a third streem of water shooting out to the left of our jet of water,and nothing out to the right?.How dose this uniform jet of water being shot into our water fall push the water of the water fall to the left and not to the right.

QuoteThe above text has seriously flawed logic to the point that it doesn't even make sense.  So your first step would be to rewrite your statement so that it at least makes sense, and then we can examine your statement to see what's up.

There is no flaw MH,you just fail to understand what im trying to say. If current flow causes rotation of the magnet,then the opposite should apply,in that rotation of the magnet should cause current to flow-which it dosnt,i have tried with RPM's up to 10,000

QuoteNope, it's more like you don't understand and you take a position that magnetic fields are not understood well enough to explain various observed phenomena.  You use it like a proverbial "Get out of Jail Free" card to avoid just doing the required work to understand what's going on.  All of these concepts build up layer by layer where you start with the most basic situations and then use that knowledge to explain more complex situations on the higher up layers.

Im begining to understand MH,but im afraid my understanding isnt in line with yours. Below is another pic that i have modified. In this configuration,the magnet still spins. Now how be that, when apparently the two forces at right angles to the wire are in opposite directions?. This i found based around Mags experiment,only he used ali foil as the second wire.

QuoteWell feel free to tell me what the arrows mean MH. We know that they dont mean north/south.
Let me take a guess here-->they represent flow-!right!. Ok,well then tell me,the flow of what?.

It means that two fields from two separate sources can add or completely cancel out and that is highly significant.

QuoteHow is a force generated in 1 direction when the magnetic field from the PM is equal in strength and flow on each side of the wire,and that wire has a uniform field around it-->both depicted by the pretty arrows.

Put the two fields together and is everything still "uniform" or not?

QuoteThis i have explained above,but lets try and explain it using water flow.
We have a stream of water flowing downward(lets say a water fall),This is the PM's field,then we have this jet of water (the field around the wire)being shot into our water fall at right angles. So now,how do we get a third streem of water shooting out to the left of our jet of water,and nothing out to the right?.How dose this uniform jet of water being shot into our water fall push the water of the water fall to the left and not to the right.

Your analogy is no good, it doesn't even make sense.  As a result it falls apart.

QuoteThere is no flaw MH,you just fail to understand what im trying to say. If current flow causes rotation of the magnet,then the opposite should apply,in that rotation of the magnet should cause current to flow-which it dosnt,i have tried with RPM's up to 10,000

Sorry, but I am starting to run out of gas.  If you are told your analogy is no good, one would hope that you would go back to it and try to figure out what could possibly be wrong with it and then tweak it and make it make sense.  Not everything is reversible like you are trying to imply.  However, if you are not willing to go back and re-examine your analogy with a critical eye and look for possible problems, then the only viable alternative is spoon-feeding.  It's not going to sink in like that so the ball is in your court.  You can look for flaws in your logic and try to fix things, or not.

Quotem begining to understand MH,but im afraid my understanding isnt in line with yours. Below is another pic that i have modified. In this configuration,the magnet still spins. Now how be that, when apparently the two forces at right angles to the wire are in opposite directions?. This i found based around Mags experiment,only he used ali foil as the second wire.

I attached your graphic again.  Is the left grey arrow coming out of the page or going into the page?  This is an ongoing issue with you, not providing enough detail.  Are you supposed to be showing a homopolar motor or the grasshopper oscillator?   One more time, what you presented here is a mess where what the graphic is suggesting and your text do not jive, so I am not going to comment.  There are a handful of issues in your points here and without any resolution to those issues I won't comment.

Sometimes you need to take a break after you write something up.  Just wait a day and then reread your points and you might be somewhat shocked at how many things are either missing, or don't make sense, or are ambiguous.  I am a details person and you are not a details person.  It makes a technical discussion very difficult.

Again, I can only recommend the following:

1,  Obtain complete mastery over the way the homopolar motor works.
2.  Explain exactly how the swirling aquarium business works.
3.  Then you are in a position to tackle the bearing motor and figure out exactly how it works.

MileHigh

Quote from: MileHigh on June 04, 2015, 01:14:24 AM
It means that two fields from two separate sources can add or completely cancel out and that is highly significant.

Put the two fields together and is everything still "uniform" or not?

Your analogy is no good, it doesn't even make sense.  As a result it falls apart.

Sorry, but I am starting to run out of gas.  If you are told your analogy is no good, one would hope that you would go back to it and try to figure out what could possibly be wrong with it and then tweak it and make it make sense.  Not everything is reversible like you are trying to imply.  However, if you are not willing to go back and re-examine your analogy with a critical eye and look for possible problems, then the only viable alternative is spoon-feeding.  It's not going to sink in like that so the ball is in your court.  You can look for flaws in your logic and try to fix things, or not.

I attached your graphic again.  Is the left grey arrow coming out of the page or going into the page?  This is an ongoing issue with you, not providing enough detail.  Are you supposed to be showing a homopolar motor or the grasshopper oscillator?   One more time, what you presented here is a mess where what the graphic is suggesting and your text do not jive, so I am not going to comment.  There are a handful of issues in your points here and without any resolution to those issues I won't comment.

Sometimes you need to take a break after you write something up.  Just wait a day and then reread your points and you might be somewhat shocked at how many things are either missing, or don't make sense, or are ambiguous.  I am a details person and you are not a details person.  It makes a technical discussion very difficult.

Again, I can only recommend the following:

1,  Obtain complete mastery over the way the homopolar motor works.
2.  Explain exactly how the swirling aquarium business works.3.  Then you are in a position to tackle the bearing motor and figure out exactly how it works.

MileHigh

I made it very clear MH as to what direction the arrow is pointing in my description. It would seem that you fail to realise that we are talking about a rotation here.
Quote: Now how be that, when apparently the two forces at right angles to the wire are in opposite directions
So,the original arrow shows a force that would push the wire away from us,and cause the magnet to spin in a cloclwise direction looking down on top of the magnet. So as i stated that the force on the other wire is in the opposite direction,this force would cause the magnet to spin anticlockwise looking down on top of the magnet.
I am not sure how that is not clear to you when you consider that the forces create rotation in this case.

I have done the aquarium test many time's--Have you forgot?.
Do you remember that i completely insulated the outer perimeter of the magnet,and the magnet still spun-->that one had many of you baffled-->back in Theo's thread it was.
Then i did the same test with an electromagnet,and there was no spin-->remember.?

QuoteI made it very clear MH as to what direction the arrow is pointing in my description. It would seem that you fail to realise that we are talking about a rotation here.

I told you that it's messed up.  The current directions in your diagram do not make a spinning motor, yet you claim it spins, and your added arrow in the diagram itself is ambiguous.  You are supposed to make the direction for the arrow clear in the diagram itself.  If you are not going to follow-up and at least have a look at what I am saying there is no point.

QuoteI have done the aquarium test many time's--Have you forgot?

Yes, I was aware of your testing but I did not really follow your experiments or watch your clips.   I simply asked you if you could explain what is observed in a typical Acca-type aquarium vortex clip, and I assume that your clips were very similar.   So in response to my question you don't answer it and instead make reference to your own tests.  That doesn't answer my question and I am not convinced that you can explain the infamous vortex in the aquarium.  I am simply asking you as a challenge and as a lead up to understanding the bearing motor.  I figure if you get the homopolar motor and the aquarium vortex stuff then you will be in a good position to tackle the ball bearing motor.  I honestly don't have a solid explanation for how the ball bearing motor works with the actual source for the torque nailed down and fully explained.

QuoteSo,the original arrow shows a force that would push the wire away from us,and cause the magnet to spin in a cloclwise direction looking down on top of the magnet. So as i stated that the force on the other wire is in the opposite direction,this force would cause the magnet to spin anticlockwise looking down on top of the magnet.

The above is an example of your near-continuous shifting of gears and changing the subject matter or responding about subject B when the question was about subject A.  In a homopolar motor the magnet does not spin, the paperclip does the spinning.  This whole discussion has not been about spinning magnets at all.

Also I have been thinking about a homopolar type of setup where the wire remains stationary and the magnet does indeed spin.  My preliminary thoughts are that the magnet will spin but not because of some kind of a pushing force on the magnet due the force on the external wire.  It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.  You could have a very similar setup where there is no current flowing through the magnet itself which I believe will result in no magnet spinning.  Likewise, if the wires do make contact with the magnet then the actual reason for the magnet spinning has nothing to do with forces on the external wires.  All of this is with moderate to high confidence and if I had a setup I would do some tests to confirm or deny all of this as well as making a diagram to explain it.

So as you can see, the issue of the magnet in a homopolar motor spinning could be a whole new ball of wax with a completely different explanation for the process.  Hence the desire to stick with one subject at a time with no switching topics on the fly.  I am balking because now you are switching over to talking about spinning magnets and when you think of a homopolar motor you think about the spinning paperclip and not about a spinning magnet.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 04, 2015, 06:42:37 AM

QuoteThe above is an example of your near-continuous shifting of gears and changing the subject matter or responding about subject B when the question was about subject A.  In a homopolar motor the magnet does not spin, the paperclip does the spinning.  This whole discussion has not been about spinning magnets at all.

Well i dont know where you have been MH,but all the homopolar motors i have made have the magnet spining while the wire remains stationary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s138-oe79_I

QuoteAlso I have been thinking about a homopolar type of setup where the wire remains stationary and the magnet does indeed spin.  My preliminary thoughts are that the magnet will spin but not because of some kind of a pushing force on the magnet due the force on the external wire.  It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.  You could have a very similar setup where there is no current flowing through the magnet itself which I believe will result in no magnet spinning.  Likewise, if the wires do make contact with the magnet then the actual reason for the magnet spinning has nothing to do with forces on the external wires.  All of this is with moderate to high confidence and if I had a setup I would do some tests to confirm or deny all of this as well as making a diagram to explain it.

So as you can see, the issue of the magnet in a homopolar motor spinning could be a whole new ball of wax with a completely different explanation for the process.  Hence the desire to stick with one subject at a time with no switching topics on the fly.  I am balking because now you are switching over to talking about spinning magnets and when you think of a homopolar motor you think about the spinning paperclip and not about a spinning magnet.

Well,see there lies the problem.
I have all along been talking about the spining magnet homopolar motor,as it relates to the bearing motor,where thw wires dont spin,and the ball's(which may be the magnets)are spining.
I have also on many occasions mentioned Mag'e experiment with the rolling(spining)magnet,and stationary wires.
I think you got one thing in your head,and it stuck. While me and Mag's were refering to the version where the magnet is in motion.

You are right there is a problem.  This is bloody ridiculous so I am giving up.  The average person thinks about a spinning paper clip on top of an AA battery that is sitting on top of a cylindrical magnet when you say, "homopolar motor."   I did the YouTube search and the vast majority of of homopolar motors on the first two pages of search results are the spinning paper clip type.  There are some with spinning magnets also.

There are some with spinning magnets but what the hell are we agonizing about the Lorentz forces on the wires of the paper clip for if the wires don't even move?  That's what the force vectors on the wires are for - to explain what makes the paper clip spin.  Look at my attached diagram with the two wires that make contact with the cylindrical magnet and the subsequent discussion about the forces on the wires to make the paper clip spin.   If you are talking about a spinning magnet then you should be talking about explaining the forces on the magnet itself to make the magnet spin.

I annotated your graphic to make it fit what you are actually supposedly talking about.   Note the force vectors on the wires are removed because they have absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about.  There must be a force on the magnet itself which you haven't discussed or tried to explain properly.  The current on the left wire is in the wrong direction and you never tried to correct it and in fact it would be in the wrong direction for a spinning magnet or for a spinning paper clip.  If you wanted to make what you were talking about clear you would have put an arrow on the magnet to show the fact that it is spinning as a standard accepted convention for drawings.

It's a mess Tinman and I am giving up.  You need to learn to communicate clearly and effectively.  Now that we know what you are talking about I challenge you to explain how the spinning-magnet version of a homopolar motor works.  Likewise I am not convinced that you can explain the swirling water in the many Acca aquarium videos.  I think both a worthwhile challenge for you if you want to pursue this exploration and learning experience before you address the bearing motor but it's up to you.  I am bowing out of this discussion.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 04, 2015, 12:18:32 PM
You are right there is a problem.  This is bloody ridiculous so I am giving up.  The average person thinks about a spinning paper clip on top of an AA battery that is sitting on top of a cylindrical magnet when you say, "homopolar motor."   I did the YouTube search and the vast majority of of homopolar motors on the first two pages of search results are the spinning paper clip type.  There are some with spinning magnets also.

There are some with spinning magnets but what the hell are we agonizing about the Lorentz forces on the wires of the paper clip for if the wires don't even move?  That's what the force vectors on the wires are for - to explain what makes the paper clip spin.  Look at my attached diagram with the two wires that make contact with the cylindrical magnet and the subsequent discussion about the forces on the wires to make the paper clip spin.   If you are talking about a spinning magnet then you should be talking about explaining the forces on the magnet itself to make the magnet spin.

I annotated your graphic to make it fit what you are actually supposedly talking about.   Note the force vectors on the wires are removed because they have absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about.  There must be a force on the magnet itself which you haven't discussed or tried to explain properly.  The current on the left wire is in the wrong direction and you never tried to correct it and in fact it would be in the wrong direction for a spinning magnet or for a spinning paper clip.  If you wanted to make what you were talking about clear you would have put an arrow on the magnet to show the fact that it is spinning as a standard accepted convention for drawings.

It's a mess Tinman and I am giving up.  You need to learn to communicate clearly and effectively.  Now that we know what you are talking about I challenge you to explain how the spinning-magnet version of a homopolar motor works.  Likewise I am not convinced that you can explain the swirling water in the many Acca aquarium videos.  I think both a worthwhile challenge for you if you want to pursue this exploration and learning experience before you address the bearing motor but it's up to you.  I am bowing out of this discussion.

MH
I am not sure where you turned left when the rest of us went right. The homopolar motor issue came about when Mags posted his rolling(rotating)magnet experiment,which i fel is related to how the bearing motor works.

The two examples here on the homopolar motor opperate in the very same way,and is why i asked you to explain how and why this force from the wire is in one direction,and how a force exerted on a magnetic filed in this example can cause rotation.

The two examples work in the same way-->either the wire spins in a clockwise direction,or if the wire is fixed,then the equal and opposite forces cause the magnet to spin in an anticlockwise direction. So now maybe you understand as to why i asked-->how dose a force exerted on a magnetic field in this situation cause the magnet to rotate.

So now you need to think about the aquarium experiment. Is the water and bubbles turning in the direction that the wire would turn in,or are they turning in the direction that the magnet would want to turn in.?. Remember here we have ion's carrying the current,and not electrons.
Lets see if you get it right.

It just never ends Brad.  You think in half-steps when what you want to do is try to think two steps or even three steps ahead.

QuoteSo now you need to think about the aquarium experiment. Is the water and bubbles turning in the direction that the wire would turn in,or are they turning in the direction that the magnet would want to turn in.?. Remember here we have ion's carrying the current,and not electrons.
Lets see if you get it right.

I can feel it.  You are thinking that if it is positive ion current that it's going to deflect in the opposite direction than what we would expect if it was say a current that stems from the motion of negative electrons.

Notice that you failed to sate if you were talking about positive or negative ions but I suppose that you meant positive ions.  Your mind is failing to go that next half step and define which kind of ions you are talking about.  This stuff happens all the time.

But here is the big problem:  If negative electron based current goes from say top to bottom, then positive ion based current will flow from bottom to top - effectively they both represent current flow in the same direction.  Therefore any force on downwards flowing electron current or upwards flowing positive ion current will be in the same direction.  You just have to stop and think and go that next half step in your analysis of the situation to realize this.  The problem is that you are stuck at the first half step and you go no further.

Like I said, I am done here.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 04, 2015, 08:49:28 PM
It just never ends Brad.  You think in half-steps when what you want to do is try to think two steps or even three steps ahead.

I can feel it.  You are thinking that if it is positive ion current that it's going to deflect in the opposite direction than what we would expect if it was say a current that stems from the motion of negative electrons.

Notice that you failed to sate if you were talking about positive or negative ions but I suppose that you meant positive ions.  Your mind is failing to go that next half step and define which kind of ions you are talking about.  This stuff happens all the time.

But here is the big problem:  If negative electron based current goes from say top to bottom, then positive ion based current will flow from bottom to top - effectively they both represent current flow in the same direction.  Therefore any force on downwards flowing electron current or upwards flowing positive ion current will be in the same direction.  You just have to stop and think and go that next half step in your analysis of the situation to realize this.  The problem is that you are stuck at the first half step and you go no further.

Like I said, I am done here.

MH
Im not stuck,as i have done all these experiments,and seen the results with my own eyes-->no books ;)

So i need to clarify here(as i should). In the video you posted,the guy actually touches the magnet with the wire,where as i use only the water to carry the current. So in this case,the current is being carried by ion's(mostly).
My question about which way you think the bubbles/water should rotate is a very valid question,as i was quite supprised by the results my self. All is not what it seems MH,this you can be sure of.

Yeah Brad in reading between the lines in your last posting it's apparent that you didn't think about the fact that a positive ion flow of current and a negative electron flow under the influence of the same source of potential difference will in fact be deflected in the same way by an external magnetic field.  So you were wrong.  Can't you ever simply own up to your mistakes and acknowledge that you didn't think things through?

I am burning in the point because if you are going to share some experimental data and assume a quasi teaching or data sharing role then it's doubly important as the presenter of the information and data to own up to your mistakes.  For some people it feels like they are going to faint if they admit that they are wrong.  It's not the end of the world and you aren't the pope.

That's one of the big reasons I am bowing out of this thread.  It's simply too frustrating to see/hear you go mute when you make a mistake or do an incredibly sloppy presentation of your data or setup with oversights and omissions and mistakes and then say nothing when that is pointed out to you.  I have no idea if you agree or disagree or learned something or are simply going to ignore the issue at hand like some kind of technical zombie walk.

There is not a single damn thing that is unusual or to be discovered or to be learned when it comes to sticking two live wires into a tank of water with a magnet at the bottom of the tank and watching the swirling bubbles form.  All is exactly as it seems when it comes to something as trivial as this.

Quote from: MileHigh on June 05, 2015, 08:37:59 AM
Yeah Brad in reading between the lines in your last posting it's apparent that you didn't think about the fact that a positive ion flow of current and a negative electron flow under the influence of the same source of potential difference will in fact be deflected in the same way by an external magnetic field.  So you were wrong.  Can't you ever simply own up to your mistakes and acknowledge that you didn't think things through?

I am burning in the point because if you are going to share some experimental data and assume a quasi teaching or data sharing role then it's doubly important as the presenter of the information and data to own up to your mistakes.  For some people it feels like they are going to faint if they admit that they are wrong.  It's not the end of the world and you aren't the pope.

That's one of the big reasons I am bowing out of this thread.  It's simply too frustrating to see/hear you go mute when you make a mistake or do an incredibly sloppy presentation of your data or setup with oversights and omissions and mistakes and then say nothing when that is pointed out to you.  I have no idea if you agree or disagree or learned something or are simply going to ignore the issue at hand like some kind of technical zombie walk.

MH
I have made no mistake. All i have done is asked you some question's,that you keep avoiding,and insisting that it is me making the mistakes here.

I know the outcome of the test MH,and it would seem that from a previous post of yours,you were a little lost as to how the magnet might spin if the wire is held in position. You were about to embark on a mission to see how that may be happing,and yet it happens the same way as if it were the wire spining.

I think some times MH you get lost in thread's,and this one has left you behind. I knew that this may be a topic that you didnt understand when you said that the bearing motor would only rotate in one direction. But here you are saying it is me that is lost,and bumbling everything up.

QuoteThere is not a single damn thing that is unusual or to be discovered or to be learned when it comes to sticking two live wires into a tank of water with a magnet at the bottom of the tank and watching the swirling bubbles form.  All is exactly as it seems when it comes to something as trivial as this.

And yet you had to go and think about how the forces must be acting to get the magnet in a homopolar motor spining
Quote: Also I have been thinking about a homopolar type of setup where the wire remains stationary and the magnet does indeed spin.  My preliminary thoughts are that the magnet will spin but not because of some kind of a pushing force on the magnet due the force on the external wire.  It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.

This is what i mean MH.
In both cases the current flows through the magnet,and in both cases the current dosnt have to flow through the magnet,as long as the magnetic field is present in both cases. So this means that in both situations,the force creating either rotation(magnet or conducting wire)is the very same thing,only in the opposite direction to each other.

So please MH,dont come here and try and belittle me when you yourself missed something so obvious. If this is where your books have taken you MH,then i am in no way interested in them. This is a very good example where actual experiments trump book's.

When this sinks in,then you will find my question (how dose a force imparted on a magnetic field cause the magnet itself to spin in this situation) not so stupid. You hold the wire in place,the magnet spin's-->you hold the magnet in place,and the wire spins in the opposite direction-meaning the force doing the work is the very same,and has nothing to do with having to send current through the magnet it self.

Quote from: tinman on June 05, 2015, 11:45:54 AM
MH
I have made no mistake.

It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.

Exactly. ;)

In Faradays experiments using a ring magnet, with the magnet stationary, running current through the radius of the disk causes the disk to turn. But it does not happen the other way around. ;) Because there was no current sent through the magnet. ;)

And, if the ring magnet is mounted to the disk axle, so the ring magnet is spinning with the disk, applying current to the disk only, the magnet and the disk will spin.  This shows that the field of the ring magnet is basically not spinning with the magnet. The paradox. ;)

So the only way to get the ring magnet to turn with current through a stationary disk, is to also have current in the magnet itself. Of which Faraday doesnt show that he tried this back then. So the current flowing through the magnet must somehow bind the magnets field to the magnet in a way that now the magnet will spin with current through the stationary disk. ;)

Mags

Mags

wow that's amazing!!!!


it's like when the water is coming out of the hose, it produce a force like this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiE58Ri5axQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiE58Ri5axQ)


and this one, it can make a rotation to it. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPqVvThyL1A


so it follows whatever direction we want. maybe that's the reason why ac and dc are capable to it as a source.  ;)
successive push and successive twist. ;) 


just water flowing. hmmmm :D


toits :)

Touching electrodes to the magnet instantly shorts the current through the highly conductve material.

Quote from: synchro1 on June 06, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
Touching electrodes to the magnet instantly shorts the current through the highly conductve material.

Yep.  As I mentioned in the other thread where I show the magnet rolling on the foil with current applied, I tested a broken neo mag, and the mag material shows very low resistance, as I was wondering if the nickle coating was the current carrier in those experiments.

Below is a pic of another bearing I acquired from our mechanic where I work. It is new but didnt fit what it is suppose to.  As soon as I opened the box, the ball cage caught my eye. ???   Most ball bearing assys have these and I neglected to think about how they apply to the currents through the whole.  The other bearings I had shown earlier, in this pic also, have plastic cages to hold the needle bearings in place.  One of them I have a hard time getting current to flow from the outer to inner race.  Need to clean it out. Been sitting for some time.  The other I am working on a fixture to try and run the bearing without an axle, just a conductive plug to fit inside with a center pin contact for the inner race connection and just mount as shown in other examples with the other input connection there.


Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on June 06, 2015, 02:39:15 PM
Yep.  As I mentioned in the other thread where I show the magnet rolling on the foil with current applied, I tested a broken neo mag, and the mag material shows very low resistance, as I was wondering if the nickle coating was the current carrier in those experiments.

Below is a pic of another bearing I acquired from our mechanic where I work. It is new but didnt fit what it is suppose to.  As soon as I opened the box, the ball cage caught my eye. ???   Most ball bearing assys have these and I neglected to think about how they apply to the currents through the whole.  The other bearings I had shown earlier, in this pic also, have plastic cages to hold the needle bearings in place.  One of them I have a hard time getting current to flow from the outer to inner race.  Need to clean it out. Been sitting for some time.  The other I am working on a fixture to try and run the bearing without an axle, just a conductive plug to fit inside with a center pin contact for the inner race connection and just mount as shown in other examples with the other input connection there.


Mags

This will be interesting to see.  My guess is that it will not turn without the shaft, but, that is what testing is about...
we will see. 

Good luck.

Bill

@mags

QuoteAnd, if the ring magnet is mounted to the disk axle, so the ring magnet is spinning with the disk, applying current to the disk only, the magnet and the disk will spin.  This shows that the field of the ring magnet is basically not spinning with the magnet. The paradox. [/size]

I had time to do a few tests and confirm my initial thoughts. The wire on the side of the magnet does experience a force in the opposite direction to the magnet... equal and opposite as tinman described. The magnet or the wire may move however the field direction in the magnet is opposite to the field external to the magnet. Which explains why the conduction path through the magnet (magnet rotating) moves in the opposite direction to the wire rotating (wire rotates). A conducting washer on the pole of the magnet but insulated from it confirms the field direction reverses at the side of the magnet as it relates to the field at the pole which was also confirmed with a hall effect probe.


I think the problem here may be one of perception as the conductive path through the magnet from side to center is still under the influence of it's own internal magnetic field. A magnet consists of millions of smaller magnetized pieces thus the conductive path through the magnet must experience a force just like any other conductor however as I said the field direction in the magnet is opposite to that external to it.


I should also mention that I have done numerous tests which confirm the magnetic field around a magnet is in fact stationary and does not rotate with the magnet.



AC

Quote from: allcanadian on June 06, 2015, 03:27:43 PM
@mags

I had time to do a few tests and confirm my initial thoughts. The wire on the side of the magnet does experience a force in the opposite direction to the magnet... equal and opposite as tinman described. The magnet or the wire may move however the field direction in the magnet is opposite to the field external to the magnet. Which explains why the conduction path through the magnet (magnet rotating) moves in the opposite direction to the wire rotating (wire rotates). A conducting washer on the pole of the magnet but insulated from it confirms the field direction reverses at the side of the magnet as it relates to the field at the pole which was also confirmed with a hall effect probe.


I think the problem here may be one of perception as the conductive path through the magnet from side to center is still under the influence of it's own internal magnetic field. A magnet consists of millions of smaller magnetized pieces thus the conductive path through the magnet must experience a force just like any other conductor however as I said the field direction in the magnet is opposite to that external to it.


I should also mention that I have done numerous tests which confirm the magnetic field around a magnet is in fact stationary and does not rotate with the magnet.



AC

"I should also mention that I have done numerous tests which confirm the magnetic field around a magnet is in fact stationary and does not rotate with the magnet. "

Thats what basically kills the idea of actual field lines for me. Field lines are a convenient way to describe the path and the density, but that idea of actual lines would tend to indicate that all those little magnets in the material may have their own lines and would move or rotate with the rotation of the ring magnet. To me anyway. But they dont, just as you say. 

So lets say we have a disk mag set up so that it dangles from a thread, N up and S down and we set up a current carrying wire as if it were in one of these demonstrations with a AA batt, disk mag and a piece of copper wire, but we dont have any current running through the mag, just the wire, the mag will move as a whole, but it wont spin like the demonstrations weve seen. Only when the current flows through the radius of the mag, where the current carrying wire is making contact, will the mag spin on its axis.


So this also indicates to me that mutual induction doesnt have anything to do with actual fields cutting a conductor, but it is the field strength change, polarity and angle included to get the desired result, at the mutually induced conductor that activates the induction currents.

Mags

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2015, 03:10:16 PM
This will be interesting to see.  My guess is that it will not turn without the shaft, but, that is what testing is about...
we will see. 

Good luck.

Bill

its weird in a way.  When we look at the fields produced in each component of the bearing, we cant look at them as magnets in the normal way.  There are no end poles on any of the components. They all act like fields around a current carrying wire and the fields are just circular loop fields around the axis of current flow through each component.  This is where I lean towards the tilting of these circular rings when the balls rotate with current flowing through them, causing an offset that causes the thing to move in either direction when started by hand.

Mags

Hey mags

QuoteSo lets say we have a disk mag set up so that it dangles from a thread, N up and S down and we set up a current carrying wire as if it were in one of these demonstrations with a AA batt, disk mag and a piece of copper wire, but we dont have any current running through the mag, just the wire, the mag will move as a whole, but it wont spin like the demonstrations weve seen. Only when the current flows through the radius of the mag, where the current carrying wire is making contact, will the mag spin on its axis.

I would agree, and when an external force is acting on the external field it seems to appear as a force translating to the field as a simple repulsion/attraction thus acts on the magnet as a whole which seems reasonable. However when the force is internal it may act on the stationary field perpendicular to it producing rotation.

QuoteSo this also indicates to me that mutual induction doesnt have anything to do with actual fields cutting a conductor, but it is the field strength change, polarity and angle included to get the desired result, at the mutually induced conductor that activates the induction currents.

I also agree and this notion of "cutting" these imaginary field lines does not seem intuitive whatsoever however if one is going to believe in lines then cutting is really the only option isn't it?. Thus we have limited our options as to what we perceive can or cannot happen. The other option is the particle/field theory however then we must resort to infinite element analysis in which case everything get's really complicated really fast...it's a quagmire at best, lol.


I was thinking of a test which would prove the force/field issue one way or another... do you have any suggestions in this regard?. I mean if someone has a test they would like to confirm I have everything setup to confirm anyone's suspicions one way or another.


AC

Quote from: allcanadian on June 06, 2015, 06:31:49 PM
Hey mags

I would agree, and when an external force is acting on the external field it seems to appear as a force translating to the field as a simple repulsion/attraction thus acts on the magnet as a whole which seems reasonable. However when the force is internal it may act on the stationary field perpendicular to it producing rotation.

I also agree and this notion of "cutting" these imaginary field lines does not seem intuitive whatsoever however if one is going to believe in lines then cutting is really the only option isn't it?. Thus we have limited our options as to what we perceive can or cannot happen. The other option is the particle/field theory however then we must resort to infinite element analysis in which case everything get's really complicated really fast...it's a quagmire at best, lol.


I was thinking of a test which would prove the force/field issue one way or another... do you have any suggestions in this regard?. I mean if someone has a test they would like to confirm I have everything setup to confirm anyone's suspicions one way or another.


AC

"I also agree and this notion of "cutting" these imaginary field lines does not seem intuitive whatsoever however if one is going to believe in lines then cutting is really the only option isn't it?."

It is THE option that seems to work for what we know so far.  But just the idea that it is put into our minds that we should look at it as lines has me thinking what if there is more to it all if we find another way to look at it. ;)   


"I was thinking of a test which would prove the force/field issue one way or another... do you have any suggestions in this regard?. I mean if someone has a test they would like to confirm I have everything setup to confirm anyone's suspicions one way or another."

As in that the field seems independent of the spinning ring magnet?

Mags

Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 06, 2015, 03:10:16 PM
This will be interesting to see.  My guess is that it will not turn without the shaft, but, that is what testing is about...
we will see. 

Good luck.

Bill

Also, say we replace the ball bearings with just brass bushings style bearings. Would it still spin, and in either direction? If not, then I have to conclude that we need those rotating balls in the bearing to do their thing. ;D ;)

Mags

Guy's
No current need flow through the magnet in order for the magnet to spin. The opposite effect to this can be seen in the homopolar generator. Here we know that the magnets can be fixed or rotate with the disc,and a CEMF will still be produced when a load is applied to the output current.
There is a flaw in the way that the homopolar generator is set up,and this flaw is what causes the CEMF-->wonder if you guys can work out what it is. The force produced in the homopolar motor that causes rotation of the magnet or wire will give you the answer.

When a current is passed through a magnetic field,there is a clamping effect that takes place between the magnetic field and it's producer(the magnet).The same clamping effect can be seen in the homopolar generator between the copper disc,and the fixed magnet version. Only when a current is flowing through the disc ,dose this clamping effect take place between the disc and the fixed magnets. When a load is applied to the current output of the disc,a CEMF is produced between the disc and the fixed magnets. Only your frame of reference has decided that the magnets art spining,as your frame of reference is stationary with the magnets.

Now-what about when the magnets are rotating with the disc. Well this backs up my claim that an equal and opposite force between the wire and the magnet is there. Here we have a case where no current is flowing through the magnets,but the magnetic fields have clamped to the magnet,and the CEMF is now between the magnets field and the wire/brushes that the current is flowing through on the outer edge of the disc-->the homopolar motor effect.

Quote from: Magluvin on May 29, 2015, 01:18:53 AM
Seems to have a lot of torque.  Its odd that current runs through one bearing opposite of the other but both drive the same direction.  Makes me think that the wires could be just connected the the ends of the axle and give it a spin.  Other than that, the balls rotating with current through them must be altering the fields they produce, setting up a continuous push pull field orientation.  But for it to be able to spin either direction regardless of the current direction is the puzzle.

Mags

It can spin in either direction since the polarity of the magnetic field reverses with a change in the current direction (there's no net change, so the force is in the same direction).  This is a universal motor where it runs on both AC and DC.


Gravock

Quote from: MileHigh on June 01, 2015, 04:52:52 AM
Tinman:

So what is the reason for stating that it's not surprising that the motor runs the same way when you flip the polarity?  The reason is very simple.  For starters we know that the motor runs because of the Lorentz force.  That force vector is the crossproduct of the current flow with the external magnetic field.   We also know that in this case the current flow itself produces the external magnetic field.  So if you reverse the current flow, you also reverse the direction of the external magnetic field.  So it's like a double-negative and you end up with a force vector in the same direction when you flip the polarity of the applied voltage and do the cross-product.

MileHigh

Well said!


Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 07, 2015, 01:57:15 AM

Well said!


Gravock

QuoteSo what is the reason for stating that it's not surprising that the motor runs the same way when you flip the polarity?  The reason is very simple.  For starters we know that the motor runs because of the Lorentz force.  That force vector is the crossproduct of the current flow with the external magnetic field.   We also know that in this case the current flow itself produces the external magnetic field.  So if you reverse the current flow, you also reverse the direction of the external magnetic field.  So it's like a double-negative and you end up with a force vector in the same direction when you flip the polarity of the applied voltage and do the cross-product.

MileHigh

No,not well said,and this was MH comment before he knew or read all the details.
The motor will run in either direction REGARDLESS of weather it is supplied with an AC current or a DC current. So once we use a DC current,then MH explanation go's out the window.

I think it would be a good idea gravock if you read the whole thread,and understand what is going on here before making faulse presumptions.

Quote from: gravityblock on June 07, 2015, 01:30:12 AM
It can spin in either direction since the polarity of the magnetic field reverses with a change in the current direction (there's no net change, so the force is in the same direction).  This is a universal motor where it runs on both AC and DC.


Gravock

QuoteThis is a universal motor where it runs on both AC and DC.

Please provide a link to a universal motor that will run in either direction on a DC current without switching the polarity of current flow.

Quote from: tinman on June 06, 2015, 11:26:54 PM
Guy's
No current need flow through the magnet in order for the magnet to spin. The opposite effect to this can be seen in the homopolar generator.

I would need to see that to believe it.   If you take 2 disk mags and have them face each other say 1in apart, and the magnets are set up do they can spin on axis, if you spin one, the other wont spin. There is zero force on the other magnet to spin with the other.

Likewise, we cant get the disk magnet to spin using dc through a wire, no matter the position or orientation of that current carrying wire. The field from the wire will only affect the magnet as a whole, not as if the field lines are teeth of a gear and torques the magnet into rotation.

The key idea of having the ring magnet mounted to the copper disk in a homo polar dynamo is the fact that the magnet rotates with the disk yet the disk still produces current. But if we mount a magnet to the end of a coil and move the magnet and coil through space, what ever direction, we get no current in the coil. So the solid ring magnet mounted to the copper disk and when they rotate together, current is produced in the disk, is a very very special case in point.   

The very foundation of that destroys the idea that there are no field lines along with the idea of change in field strength on a conductor is needed to produce mutually inducted currents in the conductor.

But this is pretty much the only special case for that argument. At least that I know of.

What attracts me to the idea of having the ring magnet attached to the rotating copper disk is the possibility of no drag when currents are sent to a load..  Typical gens need increase in input as the load increases. But here with the magnet spinning with the disk, if we draw current from the disk, is there a need for more input torque to overcome drag/lenz? And if so, with the mag spinning with the disk, what is causing the drag if the 2 components are mounted and spinning as one?

So say if there is no drag. Is that the secret to a true lenzless gen? ;) And if there is drag, what are we dragging against? The field itself, as these fields are all around us?  If so, then that is possibly the holy grail of solid state motion devices. If we can drag against it, then we should be able to produce motion with it by pushing and/or pulling against it, like a silent ufo, car, plane, etc.

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on June 07, 2015, 02:27:57 PM
I would need to see that to believe it.   If you take 2 disk mags and have them face each other say 1in apart, and the magnets are set up do they can spin on axis, if you spin one, the other wont spin. There is zero force on the other magnet to spin with the other.

And what I mean by that is, sure, if we mount the magnet to the disk, the magnet will spin with it without current flowing through the mag, but its the disk with current flowing through the radius that physically carries the magnet into motion. The magnets mass is just additional baggage, extra weight. Faradays experiments show that if we apply current through a stationary disk that the magnet will not rotate, even though its fields are being altered by the fields of the current carrying disk.  So if the magnet were not mounted on an axle and were free to move like on a gimbal, then the magnet would physically move, but not in a continuous rotating fashion.

Now, if we simulated a ring magnet with a bunch of little magnets mounted to a say plastic disk, then mounted that to a copper disk and spin the whole assy, there wont be current in the disk. There is a big difference between a solid ring mag and one that is made up of say 10 1in dia disk mags mounted in a circle. When the ring mag is solid, the fields are not dragged around when the ring spins on axis, but the ring mag made of a bunch of individual mags does.

Mags

Mags

Quote from: tinman on June 07, 2015, 07:16:34 AM
Please provide a link to a universal motor that will run in either direction on a DC current without switching the polarity of current flow.

Reversing the current in a homopolar configuration will reverse the polarity of the induced magnetic field (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree?  Reversing the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) in a homopolar configuration will reverse the rotation direction (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree with this?  As we can see, in the bearing motor, reversing the current will reverse the direction of the force.  However, reversing the current also reverses the polarity of the induced magnetic field, which this reversal in the polarity of the magnetic field will once again reverse the direction of the Lorenz force......which results in no net change in the direction of the Lorenz force.

You asked for a reference link to a universal motor that will run in either direction on a DC current without switching the polarity of current flow.  Reference link:  Electromagnetic Induction and the Conservation of Momentum in the Spiral Paradox (http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0012/0012009.pdf)

Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 07, 2015, 06:08:26 PM


Gravock

QuoteReversing the current in a homopolar configuration will reverse the polarity of the induced magnetic field (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree?

No ,i do not disagree

  Reversing the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) in a homopolar configuration will reverse the rotation direction (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree with this?

The force produced by the current carrying wire remains in the same direction. You have done nothing more than turn the motor upsidedown.

QuoteAs we can see, in the bearing motor, reversing the current will reverse the direction of the force.

No ,it dose not.

QuoteHowever, reversing the current also reverses the polarity of the induced magnetic field, which this reversal in the polarity of the magnetic field will once again reverse the direction of the Lorenz force......which results in no net change in the direction of the Lorenz force.

No,regardless of which way the current is flowing,the rotation direction is set by the initial spin direction-->it is not determined by the direction of current flow. The right hand rule dose not apply here.

QuoteWhen you reverse the rotation direction in the bearing motor, you also reverse both the direction of the induced current and the induced magnetic field.

You do no such thing. Current flow remains in the same direction.

 

QuoteIf you disagree with this, then you need to explain why this motor doesn't operate as a generator.

Because the lorentz force is not applicable in this motor in its current understanding.

QuoteAs we can clearly see in the homopolar motors, reversing both the current direction and the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) simultaneously results in no net change in the direction of the Lorenz force.

Yes,but in the bearing motor we do not have to reverse anything in order for it to spin in the opposite direction.
The direction of rotation is the direction of initial spin before current is applied.

Quote from: Magluvin on June 07, 2015, 02:27:57 PM


   

So say if there is no drag. Is that the secret to a true lenzless gen? ;) And if there is drag, what are we dragging against? The field itself, as these fields are all around us?  If so, then that is possibly the holy grail of solid state motion devices. If we can drag against it, then we should be able to produce motion with it by pushing and/or pulling against it, like a silent ufo, car, plane, etc.

Mags

QuoteI would need to see that to believe it.   If you take 2 disk mags and have them face each other say 1in apart, and the magnets are set up do they can spin on axis, if you spin one, the other wont spin. There is zero force on the other magnet to spin with the other.

First-in the above experiment,your magnets are to far apart,and you now have two flows in the opposite direction. 1 between the two closest faces-say north to south/top to bottom,and 1 between the two outer faces-north to south/bottom to top.
Second-you have no current flowing through the field,and thus the fields do not clamp to the source(magnet)

QuoteLikewise, we cant get the disk magnet to spin using dc through a wire, no matter the position or orientation of that current carrying wire. The field from the wire will only affect the magnet as a whole, not as if the field lines are teeth of a gear and torques the magnet into rotation.

This is because you havnt carried out the correct experiment.

QuoteThe key idea of having the ring magnet mounted to the copper disk in a homo polar dynamo is the fact that the magnet rotates with the disk yet the disk still produces current.

QuoteBut if we mount a magnet to the end of a coil and move the magnet and coil through space, what ever direction, we get no current in the coil

. So the solid ring magnet mounted to the copper disk and when they rotate together, current is produced in the disk, is a very very special case in point.

Incorrect.
If the coil is placed in the same position as the disc,and you electrically connect one end of the coil to the axle and the other end to an outer disc(brush contact ring),and you spin the coil/magnet combo as you would with a homopolar generator,current IS produced.

QuoteWhat attracts me to the idea of having the ring magnet attached to the rotating copper disk is the possibility of no drag when currents are sent to a load..

CEMF is still produced due to field clamping. When the magnets are fixed,and the rotor spins,the field clamping is between rotor and magnet. When the magnet spins with the rotor,field clamping is between the rotating magnet,disc, and the pickup brush assembly.<--This is the flaw in the homopolar generator.

QuoteTypical gens need increase in input as the load increases. But here with the magnet spinning with the disk, if we draw current from the disk, is there a need for more input torque to overcome drag/lenz? And if so, with the mag spinning with the disk, what is causing the drag if the 2 components are mounted and spinning as one?

Yes,more input torque is required-->explained above.

Quote from: tinman on June 07, 2015, 07:09:00 PM
First-in the above experiment,your magnets are to far apart,and you now have two flows in the opposite direction. 1 between the two closest faces-say north to south/top to bottom,and 1 between the two outer faces-north to south/bottom to top.
Second-you have no current flowing through the field,and thus the fields do not clamp to the source(magnet)

This is because you havnt carried out the correct experiment.
. So the solid ring magnet mounted to the copper disk and when they rotate together, current is produced in the disk, is a very very special case in point.

Incorrect.
If the coil is placed in the same position as the disc,and you electrically connect one end of the coil to the axle and the other end to an outer disc(brush contact ring),and you spin the coil/magnet combo as you would with a homopolar generator,current IS produced.

CEMF is still produced due to field clamping. When the magnets are fixed,and the rotor spins,the field clamping is between rotor and magnet. When the magnet spins with the rotor,field clamping is between the rotating magnet,disc, and the pickup brush assembly.<--This is the flaw in the homopolar generator.

Yes,more input torque is required-->explained above.

UUGGH!   I dont think any of us are talking about the same things. ???

Ill have to make some illustrations. Cant do it now.  Working.

Mags

Quote from: tinman on June 07, 2015, 06:35:35 PM
No ,i do not disagree

  Reversing the polarity of the externally applied magnetic field (PM) in a homopolar configuration will reverse the rotation direction (the force changes direction).  Do you disagree with this?

The force produced by the current carrying wire remains in the same direction. You have done nothing more than turn the motor upsidedown.

No ,it dose not.

No,regardless of which way the current is flowing,the rotation direction is set by the initial spin direction-->it is not determined by the direction of current flow. The right hand rule dose not apply here.

You do no such thing. Current flow remains in the same direction.

   

Because the lorentz force is not applicable in this motor in its current understanding.

Yes,but in the bearing motor we do not have to reverse anything in order for it to spin in the opposite direction.
The direction of rotation is the direction of initial spin before current is applied.

Remember, the force is perpendicular to both the electric and the magnetic field.  In the case of the bearing motor, the rotation direction determines the direction of the induced current and the direction of the induced magnetic field of that induced current.  Reverse the direction of rotation, and we reverse the field direction of the induced magnetic field which interacts with the applied current with a force that is perpendicular to both the electric (applied current) and the induced magnetic field in a direction according to it's rotational direction.  In addition to this, there is another force between the induced current generated in the rotating frame with the induced magnetic field of the applied current in the stationary frame.  You use the left hand rule for one force, and the right hand rule for the other force.

Gravock

Ok, taking a short break.

Here is what I know about a homo polar motor as with a ring magnet and a copper disk close to it on the same axis.

1  If the disk is able to spin and the magnet is stationary, when we apply current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the disk will rotate, and the direction is input polarity dependent. Likewise, if we physically turn the disk, currents will be produced in the disk between the outer edge of the disk and the center axle.

2  If the disk is stationary, and the ring magnet is able to spin, applying current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the magnet will not rotate.  Nor will there be currents in the stationary copper disk if only the magnet is rotated.

3  But if the magnet is attached to the copper disk, so both rotate together, applying current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the assembly will turn as one. Likewise, if we spin the whole assy, currents will be produced in the copper disk as previously described.

These things are to do with faradays experiments. I believe the bearing motor is a way different monster.

An experiment of seeming importance here....
So, on the standard homo polar assy using a ring mag and a copper disk, where both are able to rotate freely on the same axis, but independently, if we apply current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the copper disk should rotate. But does the magnet rotate also? ;)

That would be an impressive experiment. ;) And it would help understand these things much better.


Mags

Quote from: gravityblock on June 07, 2015, 08:11:43 PM
Remember, the force is perpendicular to both the electric and the magnetic field.  In the case of the bearing motor, the rotation direction determines the direction of the induced current and the direction of the induced magnetic field of that induced current.  Reverse the direction of rotation, and we reverse the field direction of the induced magnetic field which interacts with the applied current with a force that is perpendicular to both the electric (applied current) and the induced magnetic field in a direction according to it's rotational direction.  In addition to this, there is another force between the induced current generated in the rotating frame with the induced magnetic field of the applied current in the stationary frame.  You use the left hand rule for one force, and the right hand rule for the other force.

Gravock

There's no evidence of a net force between the electric field of an applied current with the induced magnetic field of that applied current in a current carrying wire.  This is because both the electric and magnetic fields are in the stationary frame.  However, there is a force between the electric field of the stationary frame with the magnetic field of the rotating frame, and between the magnetic field of the stationary frame with the electric field of the rotating frame.


Gravock

Quote from: Magluvin on June 07, 2015, 09:31:33 PM
Ok, taking a short break.

Here is what I know about a homo polar motor as with a ring magnet and a copper disk close to it on the same axis.

1  If the disk is able to spin and the magnet is stationary, when we apply current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the disk will rotate, and the direction is input polarity dependent. Likewise, if we physically turn the disk, currents will be produced in the disk between the outer edge of the disk and the center axle.

2  If the disk is stationary, and the ring magnet is able to spin, applying current to the disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the magnet will not rotate.  Nor will there be currents in the stationary copper disk if only the magnet is rotated.

3  But if the magnet is attached to the copper disk, so both rotate together, applying current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the assembly will turn as one. Likewise, if we spin the whole assy, currents will be produced in the copper disk as previously described.

These things are to do with faradays experiments. I believe the bearing motor is a way different monster.

An experiment of seeming importance here....
So, on the standard homo polar assy using a ring mag and a copper disk, where both are able to rotate freely on the same axis, but independently, if we apply current to the copper disk from the outer edge to the center axle, the copper disk should rotate. But does the magnet rotate also? ;)

That would be an impressive experiment. ;) And it would help understand these things much better.


Mags

There is one thing you missed Mags that may help you understand what im trying to say about field clamping.
You dont need to spin the magnet or the rotor to produce current from a homopolar generator-the two can remain stationary. If you rotate the brushes them self, current is also produced.
In order for you to see that no current need pass through the magnet to make it spin, then  you need two magnets-one either side of a copper disk with minimal gap, and so as it is north one side of the copper disc and south on the other side. Make it like you have joined two magnets together and now have one big magnet. Then if current flows through the copper disc in from the side, and out through a hole in the center of one of the disc magnets, then the magnets will spin. Use ceramic magnets-that way you know current isnt flowing through the magnet it self, as they are non conductive.

Quote from: tinman on June 08, 2015, 01:31:33 AM
There is one thing you missed Mags that may help you understand what im trying to say about field clamping.
You dont need to spin the magnet or the rotor to produce current from a homopolar generator-the two can remain stationary. If you rotate the brushes them self, current is also produced.

Can you show an example of that?   I would say that if there is current it is because the wires going to the brushes( moving the brush wires and brushes) are being induced by the field of the stationary magnet.

Mags

  Mags,
      good little demo Youtube.  Faraday unipolar generator pt.1.    Plenum  88.
                    John.

Quote from: minnie on June 08, 2015, 12:57:11 PM


  Mags,
      good little demo Youtube.  Faraday unipolar generator pt.1.    Plenum  88.
                    John.

Thanks John

Well, if the currents, produced when only the stator brushes are moved, are produced by the stationary disk/mag, this would mean no drag when moving the stator brushes?  Or, it is the conductors of the brushes that are being induced by moving through the field of the stationary magnet and the disk is only making the connection between the brushes.

I have a feeling it is the stator brushes that are getting induced and the currents are not coming from the stationary disk.


Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on June 08, 2015, 06:15:58 PM
Thanks John

Well, if the currents, produced when only the stator brushes are moved, are produced by the stationary disk/mag, this would mean no drag when moving the stator brushes?  Or, it is the conductors of the brushes that are being induced by moving through the field of the stationary magnet and the disk is only making the connection between the brushes.

I have a feeling it is the stator brushes that are getting induced and the currents are not coming from the stationary disk.


Mags

No current will be produced by moving the stator wires or brushes through the field,as both  the negative and positive side of the wires/brushes are moving together through the same field at the same time,and thus the net result would be zero.

I like this setup where he has counter rotating disc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKr8ub5ZXls

Quote from: tinman on June 08, 2015, 07:19:18 PM
No current will be produced by moving the stator wires or brushes through the field,as both  the negative and positive side of the wires/brushes are moving together through the same field at the same time,and thus the net result would be zero.

I like this setup where he has counter rotating disc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKr8ub5ZXls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKr8ub5ZXls)

If so, then that would indicate a charge already set up in the disk??? Could we just put a bunch of connections around the disk and just switch from one to the next and pull current??? Hmm, I think we are misinterpreting some things possibly.


Not sure I understand that vid.  Are the disks on the same side of the magnet? Why do they counter rotate? Is one disk reacting off of the other to counter rotate?


Why is my post reply box 8 feet long???

I get more and more feelings of wondering if the site is going to work for me today, every day.  Almost every day the site is either down at some point or something is going on. And if its backup of the site, there is no message of doing so like there used to be.  Even when I check the site on my cell phone, this site will shut down my phone browser. but no other sites do that. None of them.

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on June 08, 2015, 08:52:02 PM
Not sure I understand that vid.  Are the disks on the same side of the magnet? Why do they counter rotate? Is one disk reacting off of the other to counter rotate?


Mags

Mags,


Both disks are on the same side of the magnet.  The force is in the same direction for both disks, however they counter rotate because the forces are on different sides of the center of rotation.  The force is on the left side of the top disk and on the right side of the bottom disk, thus a counter rotation.  There is no force on the right side of the top disk and no force on the left side of the bottom disk.


Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 08, 2015, 10:10:59 PM

Mags,


Both disks are on the same side of the magnet.  The force is in the same direction for both disks, however they counter rotate because the forces are on different sides of the center of rotation.  The force is on the left side of the top disk and on the right side of the bottom disk, thus a counter rotation.  There is no force on the right side of the top disk and no force on the left side of the bottom disk.


Gravock

No
It dosnt matter what side of the disc the wires are on, the force will still be in the same direction as we are dealing with circles.
The disc spin in opposite directions because one wire is the positive, and the other wire is the negative-the current flows are in different directions, an thus so is the rotations.

Quote from: tinman on June 09, 2015, 12:23:26 AM
No
It dosnt matter what side of the disc the wires are on, the force will still be in the same direction as we are dealing with circles.
The disc spin in opposite directions because one wire is the positive, and the other wire is the negative-the current flows are in different directions, an thus so is the rotations.

Yeah, I understand that the wire can contact the disk anywhere on the outer perimeter to get the same results.

And now I understand that one disk has current running opposite of the other. ;)

Mags

Quote from: tinman on June 09, 2015, 12:23:26 AM
No
It dosnt matter what side of the disc the wires are on, the force will still be in the same direction as we are dealing with circles.
The disc spin in opposite directions because one wire is the positive, and the other wire is the negative-the current flows are in different directions, an thus so is the rotations.

LOL.


Gravock

Quote from: Magluvin on June 09, 2015, 12:34:29 AM
Yeah, I understand that the wire can contact the disk anywhere on the outer perimeter to get the same results.

And now I understand that one disk has current running opposite of the other. ;)

Mags

The current is running in the same direction relative to the magnetic field for both disks.  The current flows from the edge of the top disc to the center of the top disc, and then flows down the conductive axle where it then flows from the center of the bottom disc to the edge of the bottom disk.


Gravock

Interesting , I wonder why he cut the spirals into the discs', where Tesla said to put raised ridges on the disk in a spiral pattern?
If he just motored one disc , could he collect off the other?
Thanks for linking that video ,got some ideas to try.
artv

Quote from: shylo on June 09, 2015, 07:44:12 AM
Interesting , I wonder why he cut the spirals into the discs', where Tesla said to put raised ridges on the disk in a spiral pattern?
If he just motored one disc , could he collect off the other?
Thanks for linking that video ,got some ideas to try.
artv

The logarithmic spiral is the shortest spiral with the maximum torque.  I provided a reference link a few posts back on the logarithmic spiral.


Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 09, 2015, 06:56:59 AM

The current is running in the same direction relative to the magnetic field for both disks.  The current flows from the edge of the top disc to the center of the top disc, and then flows down the conductive axle where it then flows from the center of the bottom disc to the edge of the bottom disk.


Gravock

Oh dear. ::)

Quote from: tinman on June 09, 2015, 06:50:43 PM
Oh dear. ::)

Yes, it's a big bite to swallow for someone who is so far off.


Gravock

I don't have any copper plate to try this, would aluminum plate work?
It must have something to do with the eddy currents.
Gravok, I skimmed your link and will read later, Thanks for that.
How much potential can be generated with this type of set-up?
The heavier the copper ,the more amps?
artv

Quote from: shylo on June 09, 2015, 08:13:53 PM
I don't have any copper plate to try this, would aluminum plate work?
It must have something to do with the eddy currents.
Gravok, I skimmed your link and will read later, Thanks for that.
How much potential can be generated with this type of set-up?
The heavier the copper ,the more amps?
artv

Yes, an aluminum plate will work.  A larger diameter disk and magnet increases the voltage.  Higher rpms and stronger magnets will also increase the voltage.  A thicker copper disc for more amps.  Eddy currents only occur when the outer rim of the conductive disk is larger/outside the magnetic field.


Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 09, 2015, 07:50:37 PM

Yes, it's a big bite to swallow for someone who is so far off.


Gravock

Gravoc
I think you need to revisit your statement.
On one disc we have current flowing from the outer circumference to the center of the disc. On the second disc we have the current flowing from the center of the disc to the outer circumference.  As the disc are the conductors, we now see that the current is flowing through those conductors in opposite directions. How you came up with current is flowing in the same direction through the conductors has me lost. You need to think a little more on the magnetic fields produced by a ring magnet also.

This is when people get lost, when people like yourself go making incorrect statement as youjust did.

Quote from: Magluvin on June 07, 2015, 02:27:57 PM
I would need to see that to believe it.   If you take 2 disk mags and have them face each other say 1in apart, and the magnets are set up do they can spin on axis, if you spin one, the other wont spin. There is zero force on the other magnet to spin with the other.

Likewise, we cant get the disk magnet to spin using dc through a wire, no matter the position or orientation of that current carrying wire. The field from the wire will only affect the magnet as a whole, not as if the field lines are teeth of a gear and torques the magnet into rotation.

The key idea of having the ring magnet mounted to the copper disk in a homo polar dynamo is the fact that the magnet rotates with the disk yet the disk still produces current. But if we mount a magnet to the end of a coil and move the magnet and coil through space, what ever direction, we get no current in the coil. So the solid ring magnet mounted to the copper disk and when they rotate together, current is produced in the disk, is a very very special case in point.   

The very foundation of that destroys the idea that there are no field lines along with the idea of change in field strength on a conductor is needed to produce mutually inducted currents in the conductor.

But this is pretty much the only special case for that argument. At least that I know of.

What attracts me to the idea of having the ring magnet attached to the rotating copper disk is the possibility of no drag when currents are sent to a load..  Typical gens need increase in input as the load increases. But here with the magnet spinning with the disk, if we draw current from the disk, is there a need for more input torque to overcome drag/lenz? And if so, with the mag spinning with the disk, what is causing the drag if the 2 components are mounted and spinning as one?

So say if there is no drag. Is that the secret to a true lenzless gen? ;) And if there is drag, what are we dragging against? The field itself, as these fields are all around us?  If so, then that is possibly the holy grail of solid state motion devices. If we can drag against it, then we should be able to produce motion with it by pushing and/or pulling against it, like a silent ufo, car, plane, etc.

Mags

Mags
I believe I have a version of the homopolar generator that will have very little CEMF. The CEMF is created at the outer contact brush, so we need to get rid of that brush. I have a design that has both brushes on the shaft, and none around the outer perimeter of the disc.
I will draw it up tonight.

Take a look  it is rotating, no anything but flowing of water only. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpdRMwiG1P8

Quote from: tinman on June 10, 2015, 12:32:10 AM
Gravoc
I think you need to revisit your statement.
On one disc we have current flowing from the outer circumference to the center of the disc. On the second disc we have the current flowing from the center of the disc to the outer circumference.  As the disc are the conductors, we now see that the current is flowing through those conductors in opposite directions. How you came up with current is flowing in the same direction through the conductors has me lost. You need to think a little more on the magnetic fields produced by a ring magnet also.

This is when people get lost, when people like yourself go making incorrect statement as youjust did.

Current is flowing on the top disk from the rim to the center (left to right), and the bottom disk the current is flowing from the center to the rim (once again it is still flowing from left to right in the same direction as the top disk).  The current is flowing in the same direction through the same pole of the magnet for both disks.  This means the force is in the same direction for both disks.  Apply a force on the left side of the center of motion and it will rotate in the opposite direction than a force applied in the same direction on the right side of the center of motion.

Gravock

Quote from: tinman on June 10, 2015, 12:42:36 AM
Mags
I believe I have a version of the homopolar generator that will have very little CEMF. The CEMF is created at the outer contact brush, so we need to get rid of that brush. I have a design that has both brushes on the shaft, and none around the outer perimeter of the disc.
I will draw it up tonight.

I think we should look at the magnets fields around those brushes and wire connections with an analog hall sensor.  The fields coming out of the magnet face are not beaming straight out of the magnet. They tend to be curved outward almost immediately, especially at the edges of the magnet. So we cannot say that the brushes and their wire connections are not affected by the magnets field when the brushes move alone because the fields of the magnet are not inline with the brush holders and the like.

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on June 10, 2015, 12:24:48 PM
I think we should look at the magnets fields around those brushes and wire connections with an analog hall sensor.  The fields coming out of the magnet face are not beaming straight out of the magnet. They tend to be curved outward almost immediately, especially at the edges of the magnet. So we cannot say that the brushes and their wire connections are not affected by the magnets field when the brushes move alone because the fields of the magnet are not inline with the brush holders and the like.

Mags

Also, on the outer edges of the mag, the fields bend outward and at the inner edges of the hole in the mag, the fields bend inward.

So now we have 2 moving conductors, the inner brush and the outer brush. The outer brush sees a path that is crossing the outer edge field of the mag, and the inner brush sees a path of mag fields crossing the brush/wire at an opposite angle. So both brushes/wires have complimentary currents in the same direction of the loop circuit of the brushes and their wires.

It should be pretty simple to follow once you visualize the fields and how they are 'cutting' those conductors as the brushes move.  This is all visualized in my head. Dont need to draw it out for me to understand.



Look at this reply page.  Ridiculous.

Mags

The 'only' thing I find incredibly interesting is the fact that the magnet can spin with the disk and produce currents in the disk. This is the one thing that should be experimented with to see what, if any, advantages that could be had, like the possibility of zero drag/lenz. And if there is drag/lenz, then what are we dragging against if the magnet is moving with the disk?

So there are 2 possibilities for adventure here.  Either there is no drag, of which I think we can all appreciate, or, if there is drag, 'what ever we are dragging against', can that idea be used to cause motion through space with a solid state device.  Like a small device mounted on a small car, where the car moves by pushing or pulling against, 'what ever it is'. ;)

Mags

I know some of you think I dont know what Im talking about at times.  But I assure you, I have been around this stuff for some time. And I do have a fairly deep understanding of what is going on here. Thats why at times I just say UUGGHH!!.  ;D Then I collect myself and continue on. ;)


Mags

Quote from: gravityblock on June 10, 2015, 07:25:17 AM
Current is flowing on the top disk from the rim to the center (left to right), and the bottom disk the current is flowing from the center to the rim (once again it is still flowing from left to right in the same direction as the top disk).  The current is flowing in the same direction through the same pole of the magnet for both disks.  This means the force is in the same direction for both disks.  Apply a force on the left side of the center of motion and it will rotate in the opposite direction than a force applied in the same direction on the right side of the center of motion.

Gravock

You have confused yourself with the position of the wires touching the disc in the video. The fact is,the two wires could be vertical to each other,and the two disc would still rotate in the same directions. So now all you have to do is move one wire 180* around the disc ,so as the two wires are now in a vertical plane. This will help with your confusion about the current flowing in the same direction. Now current is flowing in from left to right on the top disc,and flowing out from right to left on the bottom disc. The position of the two wires on the disc makes no difference to the direction of the discs rotation,unless the polarities are switched.

Quote from: Magluvin on June 10, 2015, 12:49:22 PM
The 'only' thing I find incredibly interesting is the fact that the magnet can spin with the disk and produce currents in the disk. This is the one thing that should be experimented with to see what, if any, advantages that could be had, like the possibility of zero drag/lenz. 

So there are 2 possibilities for adventure here.  Either there is no drag, of which I think we can all appreciate, or, if there is drag, 'what ever we are dragging against', can that idea be used to cause motion through space with a solid state device.  Like a small device mounted on a small car, where the car moves by pushing or pulling against, 'what ever it is'. ;)

Mags

QuoteAnd if there is drag/lenz, then what are we dragging against if the magnet is moving with the disk?

As i stated before,when the magnet moves with the disc,the lorentz force is against the magnetic field and the brushes/brush holders. When the magnets are stationary,then the lorentz force is between the rotating disc and the fixed magnet. This is why we need a setup where both brushes are on the shaft of the generator,and not on the outer perimeter of the disc.

Quote from: tinman on June 10, 2015, 07:11:35 PM
This is why we need a setup where both brushes are on the shaft of the generator,and not on the outer perimeter of the disc.

Some magnet companies make custom magnets.  So if a tube magnet could be made, say N on the outside of the tube and S on the inside, then just have a copper tube that slides onto the tube magnet. Then we could just put the brushes on the ends of the copper tube to pull current or run as a motor. ;)

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on June 11, 2015, 01:54:40 AM
Some magnet companies make custom magnets.  So if a tube magnet could be made, say N on the outside of the tube and S on the inside, then just have a copper tube that slides onto the tube magnet. Then we could just put the brushes on the ends of the copper tube to pull current or run as a motor. ;)

Mags

No Mag's.
The last thing you want a homopolar generator to do is to work as a motor as well. The reason being that the motoring effect it self is what causes the CEMF when being used as a generator.

But your drum style homopolar generator may just work if it is consructed correctly. Although not as strong in field strength,we could use a stack of ferrite donut magnets from microwave ovens. It would still have to be designed so as the pickup brushes were on the shaft,and not the outer rim. So our shaft would have to be two pieces,and we use a teflon bush to join the two shaft halves together. The shaft would be best made from bronze,as it would be kinder to the brushes.

I have thrown together a quick sketch,and i believe that this design should give us two homopolar generators in one,with a series conection between the two. As we know,if we keep the same rotation direction,but switch magnetic field polarities,we reverse the flow of current. With this setup,we should get current flowing from one half of the shaft to the outer edge of the first copper disk(depending on rotation direction of course),and on the other side(other copper disk)we should get current flowing from the outer edge to the shaft. The copper tube that is around our magnets is our series connection cable between the two copper plates on either side of our magnets.

You will see i have placed a brush test point at the outer rim of the copper tube. This is there so as we can see if the amount of available power is due to tip speed of the brush in relation to the disc,or if only the RPM speed of the disc within the magnetic field is what produces current. We can also use this test point to see if we managed to reduce or remove the CEMF from the system.

Im not sure weather the design below will work?,but only one way to find out. We wont get a lot of power from it,as we are only using weak magnets,and in my setup,i will only have around a 2 1/2" diameter. but i do have some 20 000 RPM 12 volt motors here,so at that RPM we should get enough to do some testing with.

@ Mags

Here is a video that shows a similar setup. Im not sure what language it is,but this little setup puts out 30+ amps-->for a brief time. You will also see the back torque is quite high.

But rather that have the brushes on the outer rim of the disc's,my setup would have those two disc's joined in series across the outer rim of the disc's,and the shaft would be two half shaft's,and our pickup brushes would be placed on the shaft's. As i stated above,we wont get that sort of current,as i will be using much weaker magnets,and he seems to have some beefy neo's on that setup. But even if we get 500mA,that will be enough to do some testing and experimenting. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3vV5T4x-FI

Quote from: tinman on June 10, 2015, 07:06:20 PM
You have confused yourself with the position of the wires touching the disc in the video. The fact is,the two wires could be vertical to each other,and the two disc would still rotate in the same directions. So now all you have to do is move one wire 180* around the disc ,so as the two wires are now in a vertical plane. This will help with your confusion about the current flowing in the same direction. Now current is flowing in from left to right on the top disc,and flowing out from right to left on the bottom disc. The position of the two wires on the disc makes no difference to the direction of the discs rotation,unless the polarities are switched.

When I get home from work I'm going to do a video for you in order to clear this up.


Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 11, 2015, 07:46:20 AM

When I get home from work I'm going to do a video for you in order to clear this up.


Gravock

Sounds good ;)

Quote from: tinman on June 11, 2015, 06:32:47 AM
@ Mags

Here is a video that shows a similar setup. Im not sure what language it is,but this little setup puts out 30+ amps-->for a brief time. You will also see the back torque is quite high.

But rather that have the brushes on the outer rim of the disc's,my setup would have those two disc's joined in series across the outer rim of the disc's,and the shaft would be two half shaft's,and our pickup brushes would be placed on the shaft's. As i stated above,we wont get that sort of current,as i will be using much weaker magnets,and he seems to have some beefy neo's on that setup. But even if we get 500mA,that will be enough to do some testing and experimenting. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3vV5T4x-FI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3vV5T4x-FI)

Yes, he gets high current through the very low resistance of the ammeter. That's very common from homopolar generators. In industry they are sometimes used for billet heating, can heat up a chunk of metal very fast since their current output _into low resistance_ is very high. They have also been used as current sources for railguns.
I think it's important to realize that the _voltage_ output from a HP generator is very low, though. On the order of a couple of volts or less.  So this means that even small resistances in the load path will effectively "kill" the output of a homopolar generator.  The automotive ammeter used in the video probably has a resistance of no more than 0.1 ohm. So a current reading of 30 amps would mean that the voltage output of the HP generator is V=IR or 30 x 0.1 = 3 volts or less. And as the video demonstrated, there is a strong back torque when that much current is drawn off the system. If you had a load resistance of even one ohm your current would drop drastically.

@Tinman,

I drew up a few crude illustrations showing the current flow and the direction of the forces.  In the illustrations below, the green is showing the direction of the current and the blue is showing the direction of the force and the direction of the rotation for that force.  In the first image, the current direction is in the same direction across the entire diameter of the disk.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing in the same direction upwards for a CCW rotation.  On a single disc, the forces will cancel for no net rotation.  A dual disc on separate axles will counter rotate as we see in the spiral video.

In the second image, the current direction is in the opposite direction.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing downwards for a CW rotation.  This results in a net CW rotation.  The third image is similar to the second image.  In the third image, rotating the positive terminal around the disk also results in a net CW rotation.  Rotate the positive terminal located at the 12 o'clock position 180^o to the opposite side of the disc to the 6 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 180^o.  The force is to the right at the 12 o'clock position and the force is to the left at the 6 o'clock position.  Rotate the positive terminal at the 6 o'clock position 90^o to the 9 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 90^o.  The force is pointing to the left at the 6 o'clock position and pointing upwards at the 9 o'clock position.  However, the force at the 6 o'clock position and the force at the 9 o'clock position both induces a CW rotation.  I hope this helps in clearing things up

Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 11, 2015, 08:54:04 PM
@Tinman,

I drew up a few crude illustrations showing the current flow and the direction of the forces.  In the illustrations below, the green is showing the direction of the current and the blue is showing the direction of the force and the direction of the rotation for that force.  In the first image, the current direction is in the same direction across the entire diameter of the disk.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing in the same direction upwards for a CCW rotation.  On a single disc, the forces will cancel for no net rotation.  A dual disc on separate axles will counter rotate as we see in the spiral video.

In the second image, the current direction is in the opposite direction.  There's a force pointing upwards on the left side of the disk for a CW rotation, and on the right side there's a force pointing downwards for a CW rotation.  This results in a net CW rotation.  The third image is similar to the second image.  In the third image, rotating the positive terminal around the disk also results in a net CW rotation.  Rotate the positive terminal located at the 12 o'clock position 180^o to the opposite side of the disc to the 6 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 180^o.  The force is to the right at the 12 o'clock position and the force is to the left at the 6 o'clock position.  Rotate the positive terminal at the 6 o'clock position 90^o to the 9 o'clock position and you also rotate the force 90^o.  The force is pointing to the left at the 6 o'clock position and pointing upwards at the 9 o'clock position.  However, the force at the 6 o'clock position and the force at the 9 o'clock position both induces a CW rotation.  I hope this helps in clearing things up

Gravock

Gravoc
You have definitely confused your self,and just about proved your self wrong. In order for the 2 disc to rotate in opposite directions in the same magnetic field,the polarity/current flow across the disc's must be opposite-->which it is. You must also understand that the disc's are on top of the ring magnet,and not between two ring magnet's,(i have added a picture of the fields of a ring magnet). So as you can see,the current flow is not at right angles with the uniform magnetic field as in a normal situation(the direction of field flow above a ring magnet is very messy),the current flow is parallel to the overall magnetic field,when you average out the magnetic field flow. You also have to separate each disc,and see them as the conductors. Also below is a pic of each disc,and the polarity and current flow direction due to that polarity. As you can see in disc A, the voltage polarity is positive on the outer edge of the disc,and negative at the center/conductive shaft.As we are dealing in DC current,then using conventional current flow,the current flow is from positive to negative. In disc B,we see that the positive potential is at the center/conductive shaft,and the outer edge of the disc is our negative polarity,and thus the current flow is from positive to negative-(current flow depicted by red arrows in each disc). So it is very easy to see that the current flow through each disc is in opposite directions. You will also see the blue line around the outer edge of each disk that represents the force/rotation direction. From this you can also see that no matter where the wires are placed around the two disc's,the force/rotation direction will remain in the same direction.

I hope that clears things up-->and what happened to the video?.

Tinman,

I decided to do a few illustrations instead of a video.  You are so hard headed it is unbelievable.  We are looking at things from a different perspective.  It's like you say the hands on the clock rotate CCW when looking at the back face of the clock, and I say the hands on the clock rotate CW when looking at the front face of the clock.  Use whatever works for you.

Gravock

Quote from: gravityblock on June 12, 2015, 06:43:24 PM
Tinman,

I decided to do a few illustrations instead of a video.  You are so hard headed it is unbelievable.  We are looking at things from a different perspective.  It's like you say the hands on the clock rotate CCW when looking at the back face of the clock, and I say the hands on the clock rotate CW when looking at the front face of the clock.  Use whatever works for you.

Gravock

Gravoc
Surly you know that the current flow through the disc's must be opposite in order for them to counter rotate in the same magnetic field :o

Quote from: Magluvin on June 11, 2015, 01:54:40 AM
Some magnet companies make custom magnets.  So if a tube magnet could be made, say N on the outside of the tube and S on the inside, then just have a copper tube that slides onto the tube magnet. Then we could just put the brushes on the ends of the copper tube to pull current or run as a motor. ;)

Mags

@Mags,

I got results like that with an aluminum axle. The setup will generate power from the ends of the copper tube. The magnet tube you describe would be polarized "Radially". This will work with a diametrically polarized tube too.

Quote from: tinman on June 12, 2015, 08:15:52 PM
Gravoc
Surly you know that the current flow through the disc's must be opposite in order for them to counter rotate in the same magnetic field :o

No, according to empirical evidence (see Lorentz Force in a conducting liquid) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oabsU-YZR0), there is counter rotation in the same magnetic field when current flows in the same direction diametrically across the entire magnet.  I thought I posted this before, but it appears my post didn't go through properly.


Gravock

deleted.....posted in wrong thread by accident.


Gravock