Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors-enthusiasts. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
The link above describes a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
What do you think about this electric heater? What is your opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Sounds like a good idea.
I'm not certain that the statement that 100 % of the electrical energy through the resistive load is converted to heat energy.
Example.....
E / I = R
E / R = I
R x I = E
P = I x E
if
E = 10 volts applied .... R = 10 (through a 10 ohm resistance) .... then I or current = 1 amp
and Power (watts) = I x E = 10 volts x 1 amp = 10 watts electrical power.
However I am unfamiliar with the standard for the equivalency of electrical energy and / or electrical power
in terms of thermal energy and / or power.
1 calorie will raise the temperature of 1 cubic centimeter of water, 1 degree centigrade ? if I am remembering correctly.
No doubt the method is more efficient than straight up resistive electric water heating alone.
Water is converted into a fuel to produce heat.
The HHO is a by product of the heating and is then used as an additional energy source / fuel to heat the water.
Thanks
floor
Hi Floor,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
You wrote:"I'm not certain that the statement that 100 % of the electrical energy through the resistive load is converted to heat energy....However I am unfamiliar with the standard for the equivalency of electrical energy and / or electrical power in terms of thermal energy and / or power."
I am replying to you immediately.
You can search on Google using the phrase "Joule heating". 5,440,000 results will appear after 0.38 seconds. The first result is the article "Joule heating" in Wikipedia. In a subsection of this article, called "Heating efficiency", it is written that: "As a heating technology, Joule heating has a coefficient of performance of 1.0, meaning that every joule of electrical energy supplied produces one joule of heat." (The term "cofficient of performance" in this particular case is equivalent to the term "efficiency".) Alternatively, you can use any of these 5,440,000 Google results. A good article can be found also in the link https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule%27s_laws
So you can be absolutely sure that "...every joule of electrical energy supplied produces one joule of heat."
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors-enthusiasts. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
The link above describes a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
What do you think about this electric heater? What is your opinion?
You can also contact us at randdgroup34@gmail.com
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on February 02, 2019, 07:07:47 AM
Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors-enthusiasts. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
...
The second case is false. You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat.
If overunity were so childish, it would have been known for a long time! We'll have to be much smarter.
To F6FLT.
--------------
You greatly surprise me, my friend! You are an expert in mechanics as well as in electric engineering! (And may be in any other field of technology?)
You have written: " You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat." There is no sense in this composition of words. This is for example something like the following sentence: " The Moon is black and it walks around the green tree." Grammatically correct, but absurd.
Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
The link above describes a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
What do you think about this electric heater? What is your opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Only"Q"~ heater efficiency nearly 100% , "Q+H" ~ electrolyzer, catalyzer : efficiency over 100%
A. How many parts from "H": 33 KWh are double calculated from the "Q": 50 KWh ?
a1: only calculation or physical measured ?
When not only "resistive heater"= pure Joule change then catalytic Joule process possibility :
https://www.google.com/search?q=hasebe+hydrogen+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b (https://www.google.com/search?q=hasebe+hydrogen+patent&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b)
Sincerely
OCWL
Hi lancaIV/OCWL,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Actually I did not understand some parts of your text. Would you be so polite to make some parts of your message a little clearer?
2) Electric energy E=VxIxt (which is generated by the battery) transforms ENTIRELY into Joule's heat (which is generated by the resistor) as Joule's heat=Q=IxIxRxt. And this fact is valid for a solid resistor as well as for a liquid resistor. In other words, (a) if you put a resistor into a closed box and (2) if your voltmeter and ammeter show that V=const and I=const, then you will not be able to guess whether the resistor inside the box is solid or liquid. Ohm's law and Joule's first law are valid for any solid resistor as well as for any liquid resistor. However a liquid resistor like the electrolyte, used for electrolysis of water, generates hydrogen in addition.
3) Physically measured. At the inlet we measured V, I and t by using a voltmeter, an ammeter and a chronometer, respectively. At the outlet we carried out ENTIRELY CALORIMETRIC experiments by measuring (a) the heat generated by the electrolyte and (b) the heat generated by the burning of hydrogen. We used a standard calorimeter -- nothing special.
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Hi George,
You have an interesting idea of heating up electrolyte by DC input and utilize the heat and also utilize the heat from the burning Hidrogen received from the electrolysis too.
Would like to ask that from the tests what was the result? What efficiency numbers did you find which were consistently higher than 1? How much uncertainty do you think may have occured when checking the heat quantity the Hidrogen provided? What method did you follow for estimating it? (The heat developed in the electrolyte is easy to measure by a calorimeter of course.)
You did not mention Oxigen in the paper while it is also created during the electrolysis process, I suppose. Or you found that burning only the created Hidrogen already pushes overall efficiency > 1 ?
I would also be curious about the DC current level used for heating the electrolyte.
Thanks, (I know I have many questions...) 8)
Gyula
OK, I have certainty of the equivalencies of electrical energy to heat energy due to electrical resistance.
Thanks.
That your method would produce more heat than electric heating alone... is based
in sound / conventional principles.
But don't you know that... its not over unity, it just means the standard of electric to heat equivalency would be changed ... SMILE
(Opinion) Odds are very good that it is correct.
I agree with others / think it would be interesting to see measurements.
On the other hand...........
The volume of HHO gases that can be conventionally produced... and the caloric content of their combustion
are probably well know / documented. HHO experimenters / experts on this forum might provide links ??
Also.........
The O and H gases and any water vapor, will remove heat from that electrolit / water, as they leave the solution, just as
ordinary evaporation reduces the temperature of the surface it evaporates from.
But.......
those calories which are contained in the H and O will also increase the temperature of their own combustion.
The same fire fueled by hot air is hotter than if fueled by cold air.
Regards
floor
Quote from: George1 on February 03, 2019, 11:04:05 AM
To F6FLT.
--------------
You greatly surprise me, my friend! You are an expert in mechanics as well as in electric engineering! (And may be in any other field of technology?)
You have written: " You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat." There is no sense in this composition of words. This is for example something like the following sentence: " The Moon is black and it walks around the green tree." Grammatically correct, but absurd.
We are very impressed by the power of your argument: ;D ::) nothing on the subject, only an ad hominem answer. Not only did you not understand the objection, but you did not even understand that you did not understand your subject (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).
I am not an "expert". These things are studied in junior high school, with water electrolysis. Even undergraduate students know this. There is no need to be an expert to see the absurdities of your proposals. This kind of idea seems good to unskilled people, because they don't see what prevents it to work, it's a matter of ignorance. Your announcements of perpetual motion are childish non senses above all pretentious, and I said why: the oxidation-reduction potentials reduce the effective potential difference really used for heating, skilled people will understand. An experimenter can check it by measuring the potential difference with each electrode of the voltmeter placed in the solution near each electrode powering the solution, but without touching them.
I'll change my mind about the vacuousness of your pseudo-inventions when you present us with a working realization from you, and measurements, rather than gibberish.
Quote from: F6FLT on February 06, 2019, 07:23:49 AM
We are very impressed by the power of your argument: ;D ::) nothing on the subject, only an ad hominem answer. Not only did you not understand the objection, but you did not even understand that you did not understand your subject (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect).
I am not an "expert". These things are studied in junior high school, with water electrolysis. Even undergraduate students know this. There is no need to be an expert to see the absurdities of your proposals. This kind of idea seems good to unskilled people, because they don't see what prevents it to work, it's a matter of ignorance. Your announcements of perpetual motion are childish non senses above all pretentious, and I said why: the oxidation-reduction potentials reduce the effective potential difference really used for heating, skilled people will understand. An experimenter can check it by measuring the potential difference with each electrode of the voltmeter placed in the solution near each electrode powering the solution, but without touching them.
I'll change my mind about the vacuousness of your pseudo-inventions when you present us with a working realization from you, and measurements, rather than gibberish.
@ F6flt
Yes there is plenty of pseudo science on this board and some good science as well.
But , the tone of your comments are ..... insulting, rude, totally unnecessary and unwelcome.
We have had plenty of these kinds of disrupting comments over the course of the boards
existence. It doesn't help any thing. It only impedes the spirit of exploration and learning.
1. If the temperature of the electrolyte changes (up or Down), then its electrical resistance changes with it.
2. If the resistance across the water / electrolyte changes (up or Down), then the electrical power
input changes with it.
............ simply put
Is the rate at which electrical energy is converted to heat energy, WITHIN AN ELECTROLYTE,
decreased due to the electrolyzing of the water into HHO,
for reasons other than;
1. caloric loss due to evaporated water
2. caloric loss due to the heat energy content in the removed HHO
Simple yes or no answer to be researched and presented / documented.
No Insulting language needed.
floor
@Floor
"No sense in this composition of words" or "grammatically correct, but absurd", without any technical justification, when I spoke of oxido-reduction potentials, is insulting. The ironic "You are an expert in mechanics as well as in electric engineering!" is insulting, it's an ad hominem argument. It was not from me. I only answered on the same tone.
You are right to say that "we have had a lot of disruptive comments like that" and "pseudo-science". When it is related to ignorance, it is acceptable. We are all ignorant at one level or another. But it would require the intelligence to understand that we are ignorant, the modesty to recognize our ignorance and the desire to progress.
When a guy claims almost every week to have discovered overunity in one system or another, without ever having studied the subject he is talking about closely, without ever having built a single device or made a single measurement, it is clear that he is not in a research process, but in the spreading of silly simplistic ideas to satisfy his puffy ego. It's only pollution.
Why should we kindly accept that all these guys are polluting this forum? I notice that this forum has years behind it and still not the slightest practical realization of free energy, that everyone can duplicate. I think that these people have a part of the responsibility for this failure, by disrupting and diverting human energies from their purpose, by attracting even more useless people who recognize themselves in them, and due to their nonsense, by dissuading competent people from coming here.
We must treat them for what they do in order to reduce their nuisances, and quickly send them back to their misplaced self-centredness, their technical incompetence, incurable because they do not want to become aware of it, and their intellectual nothingness.
Normally, to make the stupidity of the original idea understood, it is sufficient here to provide as a key the notion of "oxidation-reduction potential". Anyone of goodwill, and learning about this, will understand why an electrolytic solution is not a simple resistance that will heat according to U=RI and at the same time provide hydrogen! Obviously, when you are unwilling, incompetent and worse, without any desire to understand but only to appear smarter than you are, you don't even want to know which doors open the key you have been given, it's not your problem, you just want to parade in front of the audience, affirming in the name of your ignorant ego and in capital letters, instead of modest and prudent hypothesis,"EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1".
Here was my position, and my method, Floor, and I respect yours, we don't have to all have the same.
Quote from: Floor on February 06, 2019, 02:09:54 PM
@ F6flt
Yes there is plenty of pseudo science on this board and some good science as well.
But , the tone of your comments are ..... insulting, rude, totally unnecessary and unwelcome.
We have had plenty of these kinds of disrupting comments over the course of the boards
existence. It doesn't help any thing. It only impedes the spirit of exploration and learning.
1. If the temperature of the electrolyte changes (up or Down), then its electrical resistance changes with it.
2. If the resistance across the water / electrolyte changes (up or Down), then the electrical power
input changes with it.
............ simply put
Is the rate at which electrical energy is converted to heat energy, WITHIN AN ELECTROLYTE,
decreased due to the electrolyzing of the water into HHO,
for reasons other than;
1. caloric loss due to evaporated water
2. caloric loss due to the heat energy content in the removed HHO
Simple yes or no answer to be researched and presented / documented.
No Insulting language needed.
floor
In time, we had someone in the forum with this same type of behavior and rudeness. I just hope that guy (MH) have not changed their nickname .......
An opinion or clarification, does not encompass, trample, or reduce another opinion through propitiousness in a response.
Everyone has the right to have an opinion, since opinion provided , not exceed the limit of the reasonable.
it seems we have yet another enlightened limb of wisdom. lol
Sorry to post here .
I have great respect for floor and his open source approach and experiments [testable and verifiable or ? to interested parties
yes I see that F6FLT has no velvet glove for his iron fist....this does make me squirmy too.
but to say he is like MH ?? yeesh
this man F6FLT rolls up the sleeves and experiments ,and shares his work too ,and is a firm believer in the what ifs?
his sledgehammer diplomacy to avoid wasted time and get the experimenters to return here ....and search for a true anomaly .
??? ??? I dunno ...
I have found his experimental contributions to the open source community more than refreshing.
his attempts to raise the standards here ,in this quite diverse international community [all skill levels and education and languages etc etc]
that is gonna be hard to do and remain productive ,as they say in the big house "you do you"
just one mans opinion
he is a fearless experimenter......we do need more of the higher end open source experiments here and elsewhere [LENR NMR etc etc edit to add MH considered all such experiments fantasy or fancifal thinking,and would play google paste for answers in areas he had no training or skill set [none know it all here and never will ,all must admit when their knowledge has no frame of reference [and F6FLT does admit his boundaries ] .
I am uncertain if George has done these experiments and quality measurements ??
we have a member who has done much work here with harvesting charge from electrolytes and utilizing that charge to enhance the efficiency ...member Centraflow ,he actually uses the C02 for this charge.. and makes a fuel too. All has been open sourced here and elsewhere. PM for a link if you can't find in a search.Edit I will add a link when I can.
No stone left unturned..........
To Floor and gyulasun
--------------------------------
Thanks a lot for your replies. This is already a positive and constructive dialogue. I would like to ask you to give me some time to prepare carefully my answers.
Please ask other questions, if any.
Best regards,
George
@George1
Keep on keepen on.
good luck with your explorations.
Thank you, Floor. Thanks a lot for your encouragement and good will.
------------------
The text below is for Floor, gyalasun and for all other colleagues who intend to lead a positive and constructive dialogue.
------------------
1) Our expert in calorimetry is a very dilligent and meticulous experimenter and because of this reason he prepared a huge and a detailed report for all calorimetric experiments related to the electrolyzer, if the latter is considered as a total heat generator. The report consisted of 800 (eight hundred) standard type-written pages. I doubted that anybody in this forum would have the patience to read and assimilate thoroughly the information in all these 800 pages. That is why I insisted on severe shortening of the report. So now we are working over a severely shortened version of the report.
2) Meanwhile why don't you carry out the calorimetric experiments, related to the electrolyzer as described in the link https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf ? We are sure that in this forum there are a lot of highly qualified specialists in the field of calorimetry and electric engineering. The experiments can be carried out comparatively easily if you have the necessary equipment and the related qualified experimenter(s). If you carry out your own experiments, then you will be absolutely sure what exactly and really happens inside the electrolyzer. Because it seems to us that whatever experimental results of ours will be declared false by F6FLT and by people similar to him.
3) And here is a simple logical construction. (The numbers below are only illustrative.) Assume that the battery generates 100 J of electric energy. Then 6 outcomes are possible (on the right):
a) 100 J < 100 J Joule's heat + 60 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
b) 100 J = 20 J Joule's heat + 80 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
c) 100 J < 70 J Joule's heat + 90 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
d) 100 J < 110 J Joule's heat + 50 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
e) 100 J > 10 J Joule's heat + 80 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
f) 100 J > 60 J Joule's heat + 15 J heat of burning of hydrogen.
It is evident therefore that whatever happens at least one of the fundamental laws is violated. But there is nothing special and tragic in this fact -- any rule/law has its exceptions.
4) In our poor opinion the situation here is the same as with the steam engine. For many years people had watched boiling water in a teapot. But only a few men (Newcomen, Smeaton, Boulton, Watt, etc.) noticed the fact that boiling water, which generates steam, could be used as an energy generator, called steam engine. The same for the electrolyzer. For many years people had considered the electrolyzer as a hydrogen generator only. But it is also a generator of Joule's heat in addition.
------------------
Please ask your questions, if any. Any positive and constuctive criticism is always welcome.
Looking forward to your answers.
Best regards,
George
@George 1
Thank You for hanging in.
Note... There was a topic on the forum ..... in which the idea was presented
that an industrial scale electrolysis / hydrogen gas generator could be located at the bottom of a
mountain. Simply put.
outputs
!. Resistive electric heating
2. Lift from the hydrogen rising
3. burning the hydrogen, heat (at the top of the mountain).
4. falling hot water.
Thanks again, I will study the link you posted.
best wishes
floor
Hi George,
It is good you have appeared again here. Probably a 800 page long report is not needed, instead what you offer as a severely shorted version sounds good. From my part I have mostly the same questions I already wrote, let me write them here too:
1) what efficiency numbers did you find which consistently were > 1?
2) what liquid did the burning Hidrogen heat up? Was it water? or a solution (liquid mixture)?
3) What was the DC current level (mA, Amper) used for the electrolysis to obtain Hidrogen?
4) Why did not you consider the created Oxigen, besides Hidrogen? Or no need for it? Or just avoiding the possibility of creating oxyhidrogen that may become dangerous?
I assume the data you are to provide will include the duration of the tests.
Thanks and just keep at it too.
Gyula
Quote from: George1 on February 12, 2019, 09:16:33 AM
...
Because it seems to us that whatever experimental results of ours will be declared false by F6FLT and by people similar to him.
...
They are false until proof of the contrary, for the given reason.
Provide us with the schematics of your experiment, the details of your measuring devices and the data.
In matter of overunity and evidence of overunity, a claim accompanied by an inconsistent and simplistic theory is by far not enough.
To floor.
-------------
Hi, floor.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
You wrote that ".....There was a topic on the forum ..... in which the idea was presented
that an industrial scale electrolysis / hydrogen gas generator could be located at the bottom of a
mountain....". Sounds very interesting. Would you be so polite to give some more details? Where is this link
in the forum? I cannot find it.
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To gyalasun.
-----------------
Hi, Gyula.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Firstly, as if it is not an easy job to shorten severely an 800 pages report and preserve the essence by choosing the most suitable experimental data. (I am not a specialist in experimental calorimetry.)
Secondly, our calorimetry expert is not very quick in doing things. But I am constantly pressing him to be in a hurry as much as possible.
So in my poor opinion we will be ready in the very nearest future. We will fulfill all of your requirements.
Best regards,
George
To F6FLT
-------------------------------
Hi, F6FLT
Thanks a lot for your reply.
You wrote: "They are false until proof of the contrary, for the given reason.
Provide us with the schematics of your experiment, the details of your measuring devices and the data.
In matter of overunity and evidence of overunity, a claim accompanied by an inconsistent and simplistic theory is by far not enough."
Yes, you are absolutely right. I hope that we will be ready in the very nearest future. We will fulfill all of your requirements.
Please also have a look at my last post to gyulasun.
Best regards,
George
While waiting for our calorimetry expert to complete his bunch of most suitable and illustrative experimental data I would llike to suggest a few
simple logical constructions related to the topic.
And here is the first logical construction. (Please also refer to my previous posts.)
Let us write down again the inequality
50 kWh < 50 kWh + 33 kWh (1)
where
50 kWh is the electric energy generated by the battery (the left side of the above inequality (1));
50 kWh is the Joule's heat generated by the electrolyzer (the right side of the above inequality (1));
33 kWh is the heat of burning of hydrogen (the right side of the above inequality (1)).
It is evident that the above inequality (1) illustrates a violation of the law of conservation of energy, which is based on the validity of Ohm's law
as well as on the validity of the Joule's first law (related to Joule's heating).
-------------------------------
Furthermore let us write down the equality
50 kWh = 17 kWh + 33 kWh (2)
where
50 kWh is the electric energy generated by the battery (the left side of the above equality (2));
17 kWh is the Joule's heat generated by the electrolyzer (the right side of the above equality (2));
33 kWh is the heat of burning of hydrogen (the right side of the above equality (2)).
----------------------------
It is evident that the above equality (2) illustrates (a) a violation of the Ohm's law and (b) a violation of the first Joule's law as these two
violations are based on a probable validity of the law of conservation of energy. Therefore it is evident that the problem has two possible solutions.
Firstly, if we assume that the law of conservation of energy is valid, then both the Ohm's law and the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) are not valid.
Secondly, if we assume that the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) and the Ohm's law are valid, then the law of conservation of energy is not valid.
----------------------------
It is a well-known fact that within a period of more than 150 years electric engineers have been
proving unambiguously the validity of the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) and the validity of the Ohm's law. (Perhaphs tens of millions of experiments.) Therefore in this particular case which considers the hydrogen generating electrolyzer as a total heat generator, it is evident, that it is a matter of a violation of the law of coservation of energy.
-----------------------------
In the above text we use the equality 33 kWh/kg = 120 MJ/kg = lower heating value (LHV) of hydrogen. If we use the equality 40 kWh/kg = 142 MJ/kg =
= higher heating value (HHV) of hydrogen, then the result will be even worse for the supporters of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case.
-----------------------------
Besides if we use the equality 142 MJ/kg = 40 kWh/kg = HHV of hydrogen, then equality (2) will be modified as
50 kWh = 10 kWh + 40 kWh (2A)
It is evident that equalities (2) and (2A) cannot be true simultaneously because the value of the generated Joule's heat as if depends on LHV and HHV of hydrogen.
Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case.
-----------------------------
And at last let me share with you my personal poor opinion. I myself was STRONGLY AGAINST any experiments carried out by our team because of the following reason.
Please look at the five experimentally proved equations below.
1) First Joule's law: Q = I x I x R x t (experimentally proved for both solid and liquid resistors);
2) Ohm's law: V = I x R (experimentally proved for both solid and liquid resistors);
3) Faraday's law of electrolysis: m = z x I x t (experimentally proved);
4) LHV of hydrogen = 120 MJ/kg = 33 kWh/kg (experimentally proved);
5) HHV of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg = 40 kWh/kg (experimentally proved).
The above 5 (five) equations have been successfully proved experimentally within a period of more than one century. Actually it is a matter of five experimental facts.
You have only to gather together these 5 experimental facts and form one united whole, which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the law of conservation of
energy is not true in this particular case. But let us repeat again that any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special and tragic in this fact.
(Note. Any standard electrolyzer is a simple combination of solid and liquid resistors connected in series.)
------------------------------
Looking forward to your answers.
Best regards,
George
Hi George,
The only problem is that real and good science should be based on actual measurement results. It is okay that by logical deductions which are based on experimentally proven equations, the setup you proposed "should give" efficiency > 1.
BUT this > 1 efficiency then should be measured, that is science in the correct sense.
I am not against you or against your group or against the possibility of having efficiency > 1, ok?
And especially in such a case when you write this: "Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case." the measurement results are crucial and simply a must to backup your statement.
Thanks
Gyula
Here is a similar topic.
https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/
But I did not find the topic I had in mind.
To gyulasun.
-------------
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
=======
1) You wrote: "The only problem is that real and good science should be based on actual measurement results. It is okay that by logical deductions which are based on experimentally proven equations, the setup you proposed "should give" efficiency > 1.
BUT this > 1 efficiency then should be measured, that is science in the correct sense.
I am not against you or against your group or against the possibility of having efficiency > 1, ok?
And especially in such a case when you write this: "Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case." the measurement results are crucial and simply a must to backup your statement."
------------
Yes, after a careful thought we decided that you are absolutely right. We perfectly agree with you. Real experiments are necessary for proving of our statement. So I keep pressing hard our expert in experimental calorimetry to do the necessary things as quickly as possible.
=======
2) Besides (as if already mentioned in some of my previous posts) we do not insist by all means on the necessity of cosidering the hydrogen generating electrolyzer as a machine of efficiency bigger than 1. In our poor opinion it's perfectly enough if the hydrogen generating electrolyzer is considered as a simple and cheap heating device, which (a) is much more efficient than any standard Joule's heating device, and which (b) saves money.
=======
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To Floor.
-----------------
Thanks a lot for your reply.
==========
1) You wrote: "Here is a similar topic. https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/".
-----------------
But this is a fantastic idea! This guy is really smart! Thanks a lot for sending to me this link! If this "going-up-hydrogen" idea is added to the conception, described in my previous posts, then the heating efficiency of the electrolyzer would become even much higher. Don't you think so?
==========
2) You wrote: "But I did not find the topic I had in mind."
------------------
You mean that there is another good idea in this forum related to our discussion? Can't we search for it together?
==========
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To gyalasun.
--------------
Hi again Gyala,
Floor has sent to me the link https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/.
A very, very interesting idea! What is your opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To Floor and gyalasun.
-------------------------
I already wrote to John.K1 whose link is https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/
In my poor opinion his idea is wonderful. As if there aren't any contradictions. What do you both think about his conception?
Looking forward to your answers.
Best regards,
George
To Floor and gyalasun
-------------------------
John.K1 wrote:
"Hello there.
Couple days ago I was thinking about the HHO device possibly leading to OU . And why do I think this way?It is very simple- Hydrogen is lighter than an air and rise up. Imagine you break water in to the hydrogen and oxygen on the ground and leave hydrogen to rise to couple hundreds of meters on its own. In that high you burn it back in some generator (60% of electricity back to the system) and use the water as a result to make a rest of work on its all way down.
Would it work? Maybe in the walls of water dams or high buildings?
Just some idea."
---------------------------
We discussed here the topic with the colleagues. I would suggest a short summary of the discussion.
1) Joule's heating, i. e. generation of energy for a first time.
2) The generated hydrogen could be put inside/enters easily a baloon which could go up (being lighter than air and because of the Archimedes principle) to couple of hundred meters and could pull a load thus generating energy for a second time.
3) At the height of these couple of hundred meters you burn back the hydrogen and generate energy (heat) for a third time.
4) The generated water goes down and generates energy for a fourth time.
5) The load lifted in item 2 also goes down and generates energy for a fifth time
What are your opinions about this combination of ideas and for this further development of the conception?
Looking forward to your answers.
Best regards,
George
Item 5 in the last post is wrong. Please excuse me. I am sorry.
Regards,
George
Do you know this is exactly what Tesla described in his famous article / What he didn't tell us is the whole process of extracting energy but his analogy was much more nicer being more realistic.
Imagine a lake maybe in high mountain without any possible dam. Lake is very deep. Tesla found a way to extract energy of this lake water without using a dam. You are very close. :P
Do you know this is exactly what Tesla described in his famous article / What he didn't tell us is the whole process of extracting energy but his analogy was much more nicer being more realistic.
Imagine a lake maybe in high mountain without any possible dam. Lake is very deep. Tesla found a way to extract energy of this lake water without using a dam. You are very close.
-------------------
To forest.
-----------------
Hi forest.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Actually the idea for this original way of water lifting belongs to John.K1. (Please have a look at the link https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/ ). We only added the load-pulling balloon conception and combined John.K1's basic idea with our points of view. (I already wrote to this smart man John.K1, but still have no answer from him.)
2) Our team has never heard of the above mentioned Tesla's article. Would you be so polite to give us some more details? How to find this article in order to read it?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Hi George,
My opinion on the idea member John.K1 wrote is exactly the same what I kindly wrote to you already:
"The only problem is that real and good science should be based on actual measurement results. It is okay that by logical deductions which are based on experimentally proven equations, the setup you proposed "should give" efficiency > 1.
BUT this > 1 efficiency then should be measured, that is science in the correct sense.
I am not against you or against your group or against the possibility of having efficiency > 1, ok?
And especially in such a case when you write this: "Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case." the measurement results are crucial and simply a must to backup your statement."
No offense, I am not being sarcastic, the idea from John.K is also an excellent one for approaching > 1 efficiency, that so far has not been shown possible in a scientific way.
However, I am a bit surprised what you wrote here to me:
Quote from: George1 on February 21, 2019, 02:53:49 AM
To gyulasun.
-------------
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
....
Yes, after a careful thought we decided that you are absolutely right. We perfectly agree with you. Real experiments are necessary for proving of our statement. So I keep pressing hard our expert in experimental calorimetry to do the necessary things as quickly as possible.
=======
2) Besides (as if already mentioned in some of my previous posts) we do not insist by all means on the necessity of considering the hydrogen generating electrolyzer as a machine of efficiency bigger than 1. In our poor opinion it's perfectly enough if the hydrogen generating electrolyzer is considered as a simple and cheap heating device, which (a) is much more efficient than any standard Joule's heating device, and which (b) saves money.
=======
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Why would not the measured efficiency > 1 be needed in your case ?
This questions your whole paper you started with this thread and your original claim on achieving > 1 efficiency.
Eventually what the 800 page long measurement data boils down to ? You could sum it up in a few lines I suppose once you or your group already went through the tests and surely developed an objective opinion based strictly on the measured data. OF course you or your group have plenty of time to do so and consider the teachings of the measurements, I do not mean any hurry.
And you are free to do whatever you wish, even combine ideas from others to improve yours, I have no problem with that.
BUT remember what you wrote:
"Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case." If you do not back up your claim with correctly measured and repeatable results that give > 1 efficiency, your claim is hot air that no need to comment any more. It is totally irrevelant how logical or even straightforward deductions you started out from, you or your group simply have to build it in practice and measure it correctly. Only then can you claim the invalidity of any law. It is obvious that if you prove by measurements that your heating device is "cheaper" and "much more efficient" than any other standard heating device, then you surely have achieved something new and useful. But if it has an efficiency of < 1, then your > 1 efficiency claim (you now seem to abandon) is only hot air.
Gyula
@George1
The link I sent you was not the same topic I originally had in mind (although same idea). The topic I was looking for is a more recent
one. As I recall.... I posted on that "more recent" topic. I tried searching through my posts.. but was unsuccessful in locating that
other topic.
floor
http://www.shamanicengineering.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Nikola-Tesla-Problem-of-Increasing-Human-Energy.pdf
Imagine a lake in mountain without any possibility to make a dam. Lake has a lot of water and is very deep. How can we take energy of this whole mass of water ?
Put an empty tank at the bottom of lake with a passage of water inside of it. When water is passing it will crank the first generator, then it is converted to hydrogen and oxygen and is released up to the surface where it's converted back to water.
The buoyancy will transfer internal gravity pressure of water column on empty tank into the kinetic force of releases gases so use another generators in the passage. So we have 4 points where energy is converted/used , but 2 of them is roughly balancing itself (converting water into hydrogen and oxygen and back).
Tesla neved told about the usage of gravity in his example.The total converted electrical energy should be more then enough to convert water into gases and keep the tank empty .
As you see this is the same process but quite realistic one. Surely, Tesla would never use the lake when he had better source of pressure....
A DEPARTURE FROM KNOWN METHODS – POSSIBILITY OF A "SELF-ACTING" ENGINE OR MACHINE, INANIMATE, YET CAPABLE, LIKE A LIVING BEING, OF DERIVING ENERGY FROM THE MEDIUM – THE IDEAL WAY OF OBTAINING MOTIVE POWER.
To Gyulasun.
-----------
Hi Gyala,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
----------------
I know that you are a man of good will and we highly appreciate your positive and constructive criticism. Yes, you are absolutely right that precise and numerous tests have to be done in order to prove the validity of any theory. We do not argue about this.
----------------
Thanks a lot for your note that there isn't an urgent necessity to be in a hurry with the proper and adequate shortening of our 800-pages experimental report. The shortening process will take some time. (Besides some of the experiments seem to me not very accurate and as if have to be repeated. Now I am studying hard а textbook of experimental calorimetry (a) because (as mentioned in my previous posts) I am not an expert in experimental calorimetry and (b) because I have to know exactly what happens in these calorimetric experiments, what are the basic methods of experimental calorimetry, what basic devices are used in experimental calorimetry, etc. So I need some time to educate myself in the field of experimental calorimetry and become an expert at some satisfactory level. And, if necessary, to repeat and carry out personally some of the related calorimetric experiments.)
----------------
Yesterday almost all members of our team gather together. We discussed the topic within a period of several hours. It was a very interesting discussion. Various opinions were presented and talked about. A member of our team had a very interesting and reasonable (in my poor opinion) point of view. And here is his line of reasoning.
He said approximately the following.
BEGINNING OF THE QUOTE
a) If we have one true experimental fact, then we have one true experimental fact.
b) If we gather together two true experimental facts, then we will have one true experimental fact.
c) If we gather together three true experimental facts, then we will have one true experimental fact.
d) If we gather together four true experimental facts, then we will have one true experimental fact.
e) If we gather together n true experimental facts, then we will have one true experimental fact. (Where n is any natural number.)
Therefore we do not need to carry out again n experiments in order to prove the validity of one experiment.
-------------------
There is a bunch of six true experimental facts (given below).
1) First Joule's law: Q = I x I x R x t (experimentally proved for both solid and liquid resistors).
2) Ohm's law: V = I x R (experimentally proved for both solid and liquid resistors).
3) Faraday's law of electrolysis: m = z x I x t (experimentally proved).
4) LHV of hydrogen = 120 MJ/kg = 33 kWh/kg (experimentally proved).
5) HHV of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg = 40 kWh/kg (experimentally proved).
6) Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have a hydrogen-generating efficiency of 70–80%, producing 1 kg of hydrogen (which has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg or about 40 kWh/kg) requires 50–55 kWh of electricity (experimentally proved).
--------------------
If we gather together the last six true experimental facts, then we will have one true experimental fact, which is an efficiency bigger than 1.
Therefore we do not need to carry out again six experiments in order to prove the validity of one experiment.
END OF THE QUOTE
I know that you will object to the above point of view of our colleague. But anyway there is a logic in it. According to your requirement we have to carry out again six experiments which have been proving to be true within a period of more than one century. Isn't this an absurd?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To forest.
-------------
Hi forest.
Thanks a lot for your reply and for the link with the Tesla's article. I would need some time however to understand fully and assimilate entirely this extremely interesting text. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Best regards,
George
To Floor.
----------------------------
Hi, Floor.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
It's ok. No problem that you haven't locate this more recent topic. Please send it to me if you find it. I will search for it either.
We'll be in touch with you.
Best regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on February 22, 2019, 04:16:52 AM
...
... According to your requirement we have to carry out again six experiments which have been proving to be true within a period of more than one century. Isn't this an absurd?
...
Hi George,
Simply put: I did not write or imply or suggest to carry out again those 6 experiments, this is a misunderstanding I suppose.
The results should already be included in your 800 page long report. All you would need to do is to collect relevant data your measurements gave, from which it turns out you have received an efficiency > 1.
The output work done by the burning Hidrogen can be expressed by heating up for instance X amount of water from T1 to T2 temperature, this then could be compared to the input energy needed for electrolyzing a known quantity of liquid (with known start and end temperatures) with a measured amount of DC power during an Y amount of time duration needed for producing the Hidrogen. I also assume you checked the quantity of the Hidrogen received from the electrolysis during an Y time duration.
Maybe I have left out something also important, I do not wish to tell you how such an experiment should exactly be done, I just indicate how I think it would be a correct way (and I may have not considered every important issue, I am not an expert in experimental calorimetry either).
One more thing to consider: if there are no MEASURED results, the scientific community will simply not accept claims on efficiency > 1. It's not only me who would ask for measured results.
You may say for this, you do not care. Well, you can disregard this of course but then you would need somehow "prove" you are right, by say a device that works with > 1 efficiency as per your claims. And if you have a working device, then somehow its efficiency can be measured, no? 8)
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your interesting and instructive last text. I will consider it carefully and will write to you in the nearest future (after a day or two). I would like to ask a few questions too.
Best regards,
George
Hello George1, http://rexresearch.com/kanarev/kanarev1.htm shows data, measurements and graphs about thermal heatgeneration and water to hydrogen/oxygen dissoziation with propagating efficiencies > 1 !
Partial over 20 years old this information changed not the "scientifical status quo".
Sincerely OCWL
To lancaIV/OCWL
-------------------------
Hi lancaIV/OCWL,
Thanks a lot for your last post.
1) But this is not the same, my friend! And actually this is something entirely different! (Although as if some basic principles coincide -- in both cases it's a matter of electrolysis.) Prof. Kanarev builds expensive, sophisticated and complex devices which on their behalf generate sophisticated and complex electrochemical processes. (The latter are not studied entirely, I am sure, and there are still too many unknown things related to Prof. Kanarev's research.) Our approach is entirely different from Prof. Kanarev's approach. We do not build sophisticated and complex theories. We do not build expensive, sophisticated and complex devices which on their behalf generate sophisticated and complex electrochemical processes. We simply take a standard ordinary electrolyzer and use it as a heat generator whose efficiency is bigger than 1. Evidently the difference between the two approaches is enormous, isn't it?
2) Anyway your last post is extremely valuable. It shows that in principle it is possible to design and manufacture an electrolysis-based heat generator whose efficiency is bigger than 1.
3) Prof. Kanarev's research is very interesting and two members of our team are studying it very carefully now.
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To gyulasun
--------------------
Hi Gyula.
We are doing our best to follow your advices and recommendations.
Firstly, I keep studying hard a heavy textbook (and a few smaller manuals) in experimental calorimetry.
Secondly, in the nearest futute we plan to carry out a few extremely exact and precise calorimetric experiments according to your requirements. (And perhaps the 800-pages report will be ignored as in my poor opinion most of the tests in it are not accurate enough.)
Thirdly, we are searching now for an electrolyzer, which is newer and more reliable than the electrolyzer used in the 800-pages report.
-------------------
While preparing ourselves for the above mentioned experiments would you be so polite to have a look at the considerations below? These are as follows.
-----------------
1) Let us consider three resistors -- a solid one, a liquid one (an electrolyte) and a gaseous one (atmospheric air for example).
2) Let us apply one and same voltage V=const to each of these three resistors separately.
3) Let us assume that in all three cases we have measured one and same current I=const which flows through each of the three resistors. (The gaseous resistor, i.e. the atmospheric air, generates either a spark or a voltaic/welding arc.)
4) Therefore if the Ohm's law is true, then for any of the above mentioned three resistors are valid the equations
V/I=R (1) <=> V/R=I (2) <=> V=IxR (3)
where R=const is the ohmic resistance of any of the above mentioned three resistors.
5) Therefore if the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) and the basic calorimetry laws are valid, then we can write down the following equalities:
E=VxIxt=Q=IxIxRxt=C1xM1x(T1-T)=C2xM2x(T2-T)= C3xM3x(T3-T) (4)
where
t is time/time period;
E=VxIxt is the electric energy generated by the battery of voltage V=const;
Q=IxIxRxt is the heat generated by any of the above three resistors;
C1 is the specific heat of the solid resistor;
M1 is the mass of the solid resistor;
T1 is the temperature of the solid resistor at the end of the time period t;
T is the teperature of any of the above three resistors in the beginning of the time period t;
C2 is the specific heat of the liquid resistor;
M2 is the mass of the liquid resistor;
T2 is the temperature of the liquid resistor at the end of the time period t;
C3 is the specific heat of the gaseous resistor;
M3 is the mass of the gaseous resistor;
T3 is the temperature of the gaseous resistor at the end of the time period t.
-----------------------
If tested experimentally, all of the above equations have to be true, haven't they?
-----------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
The last considerations seem to be correct, don't they? Otherwise electric enginnering and calorimetry have to be destroyed.
Quote from: George1 on February 26, 2019, 03:14:07 AM
The last considerations seem to be correct, don't they? Otherwise electric enginnering and calorimetry have to be destroyed.
Hi George,
Well, you start with considerations, from which the 3rd can only be an assumption indeed and may not be correct in practice.
The problem is that in the case of an electrolyte for instance, why do you think the current would be constant? Because the resistance of the liquid will certainly change as Hidrogen and Oxigen are created and leave from the liquid and also the temperature of the liquid will certainly increase. Maybe I am wrong but I do not assume liquid resistance hence current during the process remains constant. Have you or your team found it remaining constant ? Or maybe changing only negligibly ?
This changing current may also be valid for the gaseous 'resistor' and can be a constant indeed for only the 'solid' resistor type.
This then means that the Equations that are made equal to each other while are based on the constant current and resistance assumptions cannot be correct.
If you were to consider an averaged current value for the time duration during which say electrolysis is being done, then certain Equations would be correct but no need to equate them with each other.
This would involve either a continuous or a frequently sampled logging of current values from which an average value can be deduced for the electrolysis, to arrive at the consumed input power hence energy.
It is okay that the voltage would be kept at a constant (stabilized) value. Here I mention M2 (mass of the liquid) which will be changing (reducing) continuously as the H and O leave from it, have you considered this?
Hopefully, the specific heat, C2 for the liquid would not change during the electrolysis process, I do not know.
I mention also that in your test setup described in the paper you started out with, the gaseous resistor is not needed to consider here in any way, it is irrevelant, no?
All in all, with the consideration like using the average current with constant DC input voltage,
equation for the input energy taken from the DC supply would be E
in=V x I
average x t
Equation for one part of the output energy, heat, created in the liquid is: Eout1 = C2 x M2 x (T2-T)
The other part of the output energy is created by the burning hidrogen, this needs to be decided how you measure it. One possibility is to heat up a given amount of water from t1 to t2 temperature during a measured time duration.
This would involve say using a chamber relatively well isolated from the enviroment so that little heat could escape from inside the chamber as an unmeasurable loss. Probably there are other, maybe simpler methods. Like for instance to heat up a well insulated room, from say room temperature to a higher temperature, with continuous air mixing inside the room for checking air temperature. Also, a good comparison for the amount of heat from the burning Hidrogen would be to use an electric heater in the same room, also starting from the same room temperature and arrive at the same higher temperature and measure the electric input energy of the heater. This would be a double check on the energy coming from the Hidrogen burning, that is all.
So the two measured output energies are to be added and their sum then compared to the measured input energy, to get a COP value.
Gyula
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WO&NR=2006038048A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=4&date=20060413&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WO&NR=2006038048A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=4&date=20060413&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
"... efficiency exceeds extremely the efficiency of conventional hydrolysis... " given as 2,8 KWh per cbm pure hydrogen !
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19780808&CC=US&NR=4105528A&KC=A#
Decomposition of aqueos liquid : 20 x improvement !
Now this hydrogen into this fuel cell chamber
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19770802&CC=US&NR=4039352A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19770802&CC=US&NR=4039352A&KC=A#)
The first listed patent from Hungary has this " citing documents":
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/citingDocuments?CC=WO&NR=2006038048A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=4&date=20060413&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/citingDocuments?CC=WO&NR=2006038048A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=4&date=20060413&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WO&NR=2011006749A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=5&date=20110120&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WO&NR=2011006749A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=5&date=20110120&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
"Induction heater" using,
why not this efficient "inductive heating arrangement":
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20161222&CC=DE&NR=112014006403A5&KC=A5# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20161222&CC=DE&NR=112014006403A5&KC=A5#)
Can a superconductive ink improve the total efficiency?
https://www.google.com/search?q=bolano+superconductive+ink&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b
To gyulasun
--------------------
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Yes, you are right, but there are some aspects of the problem that have to be explained in detail. And here they are.
Please look at the link below and please read it carefully:
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Introductory_Chemistry/Book%3A_Introductory_Chemistry_(CK-12)/23%3A_Electrochemistry/23.09%3A_Electrolysis_of_Water
And here is a quote from this link:
------------------
BEGINNING OF THE QUOTE
Electrolysis of Water
The electrolysis of water produces hydrogen and oxygen gases. The electrolytic cell consists of a pair of platinum electrodes immersed in water to which a small amount of an electrolyte such as H2SO4 has been added. The electrolyte is necessary because pure water will not carry enough charge due to the lack of ions. At the anode, water is oxidized to oxygen gas and hydrogen ions. At the cathode, water is reduced to hydrogen gas and hydroxide ions.
oxidation (anode):reduction (cathode):overall reaction:2H2O(l)→O2(g)+4H+(aq)+4e−2H2O(l)+2e−→H2(g)+2OH−(aq)2H2O(l)→O2(g)+2H2(g)E0=−1.23VE0=−0.83VE0cell=−2.06V(23.9.1)
In order to obtain the overall reaction, the reduction half-reaction was multiplied by two to equalize the electrons. The hydrogen ion and hydroxide ions produced in each reaction combine to form water. The H2SO4 is not consumed in the reaction.
END OF THE QUOTE
-------------------
Therefore the link above actually explains everything.
In order to maintain M2=const, T2=const, I=const and R=const in the electrolyte you have to do only two things.
Firstly, you have to add constantly only pure water (as H2SO4 is not consumed in the reaction as shown in the above link and in the above quote) in the electrolyzer thus keeping M2=const.
Secondly, you have to cool down constantly the electrolyzer thus (a) consuming constantly the Joule's heat for useful purposes and (b) keeping T2=const, I=const and R=const. (Because as you know the ohmic resistance of any electrolyte depends on temperature, that is, the ohmic resistance of any electrolyte decreases with rise in temperature. In order to avoid this you cool constantly the electrolyte thus keeping constant values for T2, I and R, respectively.)
----------------------
So having in mind the above explanations it is not necessary in my poor opinion to use such a sophisticated experimental methodology as the one you have recommended in your last post. Don't you think so?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To lancaIV
----------------------
Hi lancaIV.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
The links you have sent to me are extremely interesting. We are studing them very carefully now. Yes, you are absolutely right that there is an enormous and still undiscovered and useful potential in the water generating electrolysis. Obviously many people work over this technology problem. Please send to us other links of the sort, if you have any.
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Yes, many universities,science institutions and comercial R&D labs are working in this scene, including DOE and EU-Eureka grants or MITI !
Low cost water decomposition ( not : water generation) gives the entrance to the CO2/Methan- cycle !Solar-/Sun-/Wind-fuel as synthetic hydro-carb liquid fuel and CO2 Recycling.
Thermal,sono-,photo-,electro-lysis or plasma as water catalysator.
You do not want a simple electric heater, you want cheap energy and this many wants !
2010- now 2019 ,......
https://www.h2-international.com/2017/06/06/high-voltage-electrolysis-possible/
Audi,Toyota,GM,Hyundai,......
Quote from: George1 on February 27, 2019, 05:16:00 AM
.....
So having in mind the above explanations it is not necessary in my poor opinion to use such a sophisticated experimental methodology as the one you have recommended in your last post. Don't you think so?
Looking forward to your answer.
....
Hi George,
As I wrote earlier to you, I do not wish to tell you or your team how to measure the energy balance of your proposed electric heater setup for which you claim COP > 1 performance. I simply outlined a method I think would give a correct answer for such a certainly bold claim.
Any method you find simple to determine the input and output energy quantities should be fine. There is only one thing to follow: the data entered into the correct math formulas should come from actual measurements on the setup.
I wonder what actual data have been collected in the 800 page long report you referred to: can we ever read a 1 or 2 page long version of it? No offense and no any pressure intended but what is so difficult in it to collect input and output energy data and some details, once that report was done after the tests and measurements ?
Remember: you asked for comments / opinions in connection with your paper https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf (https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf) in your very first post of this thread. The idea involved in the paper should deserve a really correct measurement procedure I think.
Gyula
To lancaIV
---------------------
Hi, lancaIV.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) In my poor opinion a standard ordinary electrolyzer can be considered as a simple electric heater as well as a generator of cheap energy. These two properties of any standard ordinary electrolyzer are related one to another.
2) Thanks a lot for the link you have sent to me. I will cosider it carefully.
3) What are these DOE, EU-Eureka grants, MITI, etc.? Would you be so polite to give some more information about them?
4) And what about the last line of your last post: "Audi,Toyota,GM,Hyundai,......" You mean that these companies are also searching for methods of generating of cheap energy? If yes, then how to contact the correct companies' departments involved in the topic?
5) You wrote also: "...... many universities,science institutions and comercial R&D labs are working in this scene." Would you be so polite to enumerate some of them and show the most direct links to the related departments and/or people?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To gyulasun
-----------------
Hi Gyula.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Yes, I perfectly agree with you. You are absolutely right. All your comments and recommendations are reasonable and correct. And thank you for this!
2) The quality of our 800-pages report is not satisfiable. I don't like it at all. Too many incorrectnesses, too many experimental errors, whose percentage is bigger than acceptable, etc. In my poor opinion the experiments must be carried out again and I persuaded into doing this all members of our team. But this time I will take part PERSONALLY in all experimental procedures. (I am studying hard experimental calorimetry as you know from my previous posts.)
3) The first step seems to me comparatively easy -- to measure voltage V, current I and time t at the inlet, thus measuring the inlet energy.
4) The problem is how to measure CALORIMETRICALLY in a reliable and simple manner the Joule's heat generated by the electrolyzer. Any good idea is welcome.
5) Another problem is (a) how to store in a reliable and simple manner the generated hydrogen and (b) how to weigh the already generated hydrogen in a reliable and simple manner too. Or to measure the generated hydrogen's volume at a certain pressure (may be at atmospheric pressure?) and after that to calculate the hygrogen's weight? Any good idea is welcome.
6) Shall we test the hydrogen's HHV=142 MJ/kg or take it for granted?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
U. S. Department of Energy program ( New technologies and new energy concepts related)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPA-E (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPA-E)
http://www.arpae-summit.com/ (http://www.arpae-summit.com/)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomCAR_and_Vehicle_Technologies (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomCAR_and_Vehicle_Technologies)
European Union program :
https://www.welcomeurope.com/european-funds/eureka-302+202.html#tab=onglet_details (https://www.welcomeurope.com/european-funds/eureka-302+202.html#tab=onglet_details)
Japanese estatal program ( M. I. T. I., now M. E. T. I. )
http://www.meti.go.jp/english/ (http://www.meti.go.jp/english/)
Not to forget chinese,indian, korean and russian estatal research & developments.
Comercial R&D : (petro-) chemical industry ( great hydrogen producer and user)
Shell and Exxon has been some of the greatest re-/ searcher in the renewable ( photovoltaic, windconversion)energy sector ( and are !).
And all are working together ( energy and mobility is a trillion $ market ):
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autosieger.de%2Fshell-und-choren-zusammenarbeit-zu-sunfuel-vereinbart-article6952.html (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.autosieger.de%2Fshell-und-choren-zusammenarbeit-zu-sunfuel-vereinbart-article6952.htmlbut)
But :
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.heise.de%2Ftr%2Fartikel%2FDer-Sprit-ist-aus-1726672.html (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fm.heise.de%2Ftr%2Fartikel%2FDer-Sprit-ist-aus-1726672.html)
Nevertheless the idea " renewable ( clean and save) fuel" is alive :https://www.autosieger.de/VW-betreibt-SunFuel-Flotte-article240.html (https://www.autosieger.de/VW-betreibt-SunFuel-Flotte-article240.html)
The semi-estatal industrial VW-trust(Included AUDI) has thousands of R&D engineers : f. e. by participation https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAV (https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAV) and many cooperations and projects with universities worldwide.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.m.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIAV (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.m.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FIAV)
Cheap heat and electricity ( in future e- producer will have to pay for surplus net-charge/ load) and price potential :
http://www.dotyenergy.com/ (http://www.dotyenergy.com/)
If you have got something real then go to international energy challenges their "showroom" and compete !
https://www.ideaconnection.com/challenges/ (https://www.ideaconnection.com/challenges/)
Hi George,
Some of your questions (nr 4 or 5) can be answered by either experts from local university or college physics or chemics labs where you may also find some kind of calorimeters too and / or searching for selected solutions on the web.
Regarding your 6th question:
Shall we test the hydrogen's HHV=142 MJ/kg or take it for granted?
Well, you do not need to test the HHV value but please study what the so called LHV is because LHV=120 MJ/kg 'only' for the Hydrogen.
I think this lower value is valid when the 'latent' energy i.e. for instance the heat in the hot air created during burning is not utilized (while the burning Hydrogen does heat up say a given amount of water from T1 to T2 temperature during a measured time duration).
So if you do not utilize the otherwise escaping secondary heat during Hydrogen burning, then you can use as worst case the LHV=120 MJ/kg. Especially, if you seem to receive COP > 1 measured result with the LHV value...
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
-------------
The majority of our team is strongly against carrying out the experiments related to the electrolyzer's COP. This is because a certain set of reliable and precise tests would take a lot of time and money and would engage a lot of people.
-------------
Instead our team's greatest expert in electric engineering suggests the following made-of-iron logical construction which is equivalent to the most precise experiment.
-------------
1) Firstly, let us assume that the law of conservation of energy is valid for the electrolyte of any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer. ( No matter whether this is an amateur YouTube-presented electrolyzer or a professional laboratory/industrial electrolyzer.) Therefore we can write down the equality
VxIxt=IxIxRxt + H (1)
where
V is the voltage of the battery;
I is the current, generated by the battery, and the current, which flows through the electrolyte;
R is the ohmic resistance of the electrolyte;
t is time;
H is the heat of burning of hydrogen.
If equality (1) is true, then we can write down the following inequality
V>IxR (2).
Let us put together (1) and (2), that is,
VxIxt=IxIxRxt + H (1) <=> V>IxR (2).
Equality (1) and inequality (2) unambiguously show that for any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer if the law of conservation of energy is valid, then the Ohm's law is not valid.
-----------------
2) Secondly, let us assume that the Ohm's law is valid for the electrolyte of any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer. Therefore we can write down the equality
V=IxR (3).
If equality (3) is true, then we can write down the following inequality
VxIxt<IxIxRxt + H (4).
Let us put together (3) and (4), that is,
V=IxR (3) <=> VxIxt<IxIxRxt + H (4).
Equality (3) and inequality (4) unambiguously show that for any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer if the Ohm's law is valid, then the law of conservation of energy is not valid.
-----------------
In one word, according to the text above there are three possible options for any standard and ordinary hydrogen-generating electrolyzer, which are as follows.
OPTION 1. If the law of conservation of energy is valid, then the Ohm's law is not valid.
OPTION 2. If the Ohm's law is valid, then the law of conservation of energy is not valid.
OPTION 3. Both the Ohm's law and the law of conservation of energy are not valid simultaneously to some extent.
-----------------
AND WHATEVER EXPERIMENTS TO CARRY OUT THE EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS WILL BE A REALIZATION OF ONE OF THE ABOVE THREE OPTIONS.
-----------------
In my poor opinion the situation cannot be explained in a simpler and clearer manner.
-----------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Hi George,
I have some problems with your reasonings and I consider them invalid I am afraid.
1) Well, the VxIxt formula as you defined gives the input energy needed for the electrolysis and this is surely equal to the formula IxIxRxt which is the same input energy, no problem here. Of course V=IxR is also correct, (which is Ohm"s law) and if you replace V with IxR in this VxIxt formula, then you get this: IxIxRxt, so they are equal.
(In fact I do not understand why you express the same input energy with two formulas which are derived from each other? You can express them like that, of course but here it is not needed.)
BUT if you add H to the right hand side of this equation: VxIxt=IxIxRxt, then I do not think this is correct, because H is the output energy (you defined H as the heat of burning the Hydrogen), so:
Why would you add the output energy to the input energy in an equality formula where the left hand side is the input energy itself and the right hand side is the same input energy + output energy? Because this is what your equality (1) means to me mathematically. So this is the 1st problem.
Now you introduce inequality (2) as V>IxR and state that if you put together (1) and (2), then ... I do not repeat your text.
So the 2nd problem is that you compare (or relate) energy with voltage. V=IxR (or V>IxR) is voltage while VxIxt (or IxIxRxt) is energy. Big difference, they are not comparable, they cannot be put together in any way, whatever you mean by "put together".
SO the energy balance (if we assume the law of the conservation of energy is valid) would be: input energy=output energy i.e. VxIxt=H and here H should include not only the energy coming from the burning Hidrogen but from the heat energy created in the electrolyte by the input energy during the t time.
2) I think Ohm's law (V=IxR) is valid for electrolysers. My only notice with this is that you need to consider the changing current through the electrolyte as it heats up during the process so this law is valid in each single moment, and in another moment say 5 minutes later, a slightly changed current flows because the resistance of the electrolyte has changed, ok? In this sense, using Ohm's law here gives not much sense in itself but this latter is a side note only.
Another side note: this is why I wrote to your earlier (when were discussing the how to measure input energy during the electrolysis) that input current should be measured either continuously or should at least be sampled frequently and calculate from those the average input current for evaluating input energy.
Now you introduce this inequality: VxIxt<IxIxRxt+H Well, this may be correct because you relate input energy to the (same) input energy + output energy: the sum of the latter two can be higher than the input energy itself, I have no problem with this part.
And then you put your formulas (3) and (4) together (probably you mean: relate them) i.e. (3) is voltage and (4) is energy and this cannot be done, voltage is not energy.
So I think your listed OPTION 1, 2 and 3 are not correct or valid. (But see my side note above how Ohm"s law is valid.)
So this situation is not to be explained in theory, no need for that but the input and output energies ought to be measured and then arrive at a COP > 1 claim if the measurements prove it. I understand this may become expensive and tiresome but I can only repeat: science is correct when claims or theories are proved by repeatable measurements. Especially so with COP > 1 claims.
Gyula
I agree, Gyula.
In other words, U=R*I is what sees the generator, R being the apparent resistance of the solution, not the ohmic resistance.
In the solution, we have U1=R1*I which is the part really dissipated as heat in the ohmic resistance R1, and U1 = U-U2 where U2 is the oxydo-reduction potential. U1*I is dissipated as heat, U2*I is disspated as chemical energy for gas production, U*I is the total energy provided by the generator, not that dissipated in heat.
That's why U2 is named "reduction potential (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential)": the solution is viewed as a battery connected in series but in opposition to the generator.
Those who do not want to make the effort to study and understand, or even experiment, while thinking to be smarter than Faraday and when the well known keys to this were given a month ago, are condemned to go in circles in their faith and of course, without producing anything concrete outside the blah, blah, blah.
Hi Gyula,
Hi F6FLT,
Thanks a lot for your replies.
My colleagues and I have been extremely busy for the last 7 days and because of this we could not pay attention to overunity.com.
We will consider very carefully your last posts and will write our answers in the very nearest future.
Best regards,
George
To gyulasun.
-----------------------
Hi Gyuala.
Thank you again for your last post. Thank you for your reasonable and professional comments. We highly appreciate this. You are a real expert. And here are our answers.
-----------------------
1) Yes, you are absolutely right that real experiments have to be carried out. But if you consider carefully the main technical data of any industrial hydrogen-generating electrolyzer, then you will see that the electrolyzers' manufacturers have carried out actually all experiments which you are talking about in your last posts. The only exception is the lack of experimental data related to a CALORIMETRIC measure of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte. So any good idea in this direction is welcome. (May be it's worth to think over the possibility to calculate indirectly in some way the generated Joule's heat by using the technology parameters of the electrolyzer's cooling agent.)
-----------------------
2) Yes, you are absolutely right that pure water volume decreases while electrolysis takes place. But any industrial hydrogen-generating electrolyzer has two very important sub-systems.
Sub-system 1 always keeps constant the volume of pure water inside the electrolyzer. For example the water consumption of the Hogen's hydrogen-generating electrolyzer is 5.50 L/hr (please refer to Hogen's main technical data) and sub-system 1 always keeps a constant pure water flow of 5.50 L/hr.
Sub-system 2 aways keeps a constant flow of a certain cooling agent, which on its behalf always keeps constant the temperature of the electrolyzer thus avoiding overheating. (If we use the hydrogen-generating electrolyzer as a heater however, then the cooling agent could be for example the circulating water of a certain standard water-heating system. And in addition we wil have the heat of burning of the generated hydrogen.)
------------------------
3) V=IxR. This is the Ohm's law. You agree in your last post that the Ohm's law is valid for both solid and liquid resistors (electrolytes). Therefore for any solid or liquid resistor we can write down the sequence of equalities V=IxR (1) <=> VxI=IxIxR (2) <=> VxIxt=IxIxRxt (3).
In one word, for any solid or liquid resistor the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) directly derives from the Ohm's law and vice versa.
Therefore for any solid or liquid resistor the electric energy, generated by the DC source, is just equal to the Joule's heat, generated by the resistor.
In addition to the Joule's heat the liquid resistor (the electrolyte) inside the hydrogen-generating electrolyzer gives a certain amount of hydrogen whose heat of burning is H, where H>0.
Let us add H to the right-hand side of equality (3). The result of this addition will be the equality VxIxt=IxIxRxt+H (4).
The last equallity (4) cannot be true however and it has to be transformed into the inequality VxIxt<IxIxRxt+H (5).
The last inequality (5) leads directly to COP>1.
------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
If we are all more or less ignorant of one field or another, only those who are aware of it can progress, it is enough to learn, and the less ignorant can help while they have no time to waste with the ignorant of his ignorance, it is hopeless.
We can resume the discussion when you have made the personal effort to understand rather than persist in a ridiculous pedantic attitude repeating his act of faith, in full denial of the objections already made.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wien_effect
Ohms law in electrolysis deviation
or
as reactive metal ( ~ Argentum- family) " chemalloy" http://free-energy.ws/samuel-freedman/
To lancaIV.
-----------------------
Hi lancaIV.
Thank you for your reply. These two links are very interesting, but they have practically nothing to do with the topic. (There is, of course, a partial relationship as it's a matter of electric processes, but that's all.)
To F6FLT.
--------------
Hi F6FLT.
Thank you for your reply.
I haven't read even one reasonable comment of yours yet. Please study EXTREMELY carefully Gyula's comments, which are brilliant examples of expert analysis and high qualification.
Quote from: George1 on March 15, 2019, 09:41:06 AM
To lancaIV.
-----------------------
Hi lancaIV.
Thank you for your reply. These two links are very interesting, but they have practically nothing to do with the topic. (There is, of course, a partial relationship as it's a matter of electric processes, but that's all.)
If Ohms law deviation then calculate with Kirchhoff maths, conditionized also by https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedemann%E2%80%93Franz_law (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiedemann%E2%80%93Franz_law)
"water" is a semi-metal ( metal, translated : Glanz, brill )
The chemalloy gives hydrolysis and temperature increase without outer electricity input so surplus energyis from technical view something conventional ( silver spoon in water-glas : bubbles= hydrolysis)
Quote from: George1 on March 15, 2019, 10:01:57 AM
To F6FLT.
--------------
Hi F6FLT.
Thank you for your reply.
I haven't read even one reasonable comment of yours yet.
There is a terrible gap between the subject matter of a "reasonable comment" and what you understand about it.
If you do not understand the technical objections, we can see it here, you are unable to answer them except by idle digressions, it's your problem, not mine. Yet they are made simply and in a pedagogical effort so that they are understandable even by any undergraduate student.
I therefore advise you to ignore my future messages and consider that they are addressed only to people of good will who make the effort to acquire a basis on the subjects they are interested in.
Hi George,
1) You wrote: "The only exception is the lack of experimental data related to a CALORIMETRIC measure of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte. So any good idea in this direction is welcome."
I already hinted at how it could be achieved but it involves actual measurements... see my Reply #43 here:
https://overunity.com/18134/a-simple-electric-heater-which-has-efficiency-greater-than-1/msg531870/#msg531870
"... this then could be compared to the input energy needed for electrolyzing a known quantity of liquid (with known start and end temperatures) with a measured amount of DC power during an Y amount of time duration needed for producing the Hydrogen. I also assume you checked the quantity of the Hydrogen received from the electrolysis during an Y time duration."
Or in my Reply #49 "This would involve either a continuous or a frequently sampled logging of current values from which an average value can be deduced for the electrolysis, to arrive at the consumed input power hence energy. It is okay that the voltage would be kept at a constant (stabilized) value. Here I mention M2 (mass of the liquid) which will be changing (reducing) continuously as the H and O leave from it, have you considered this? ... All in all, with the consideration like using the average current with constant DC input voltage,
equation for the input energy taken from the DC supply would be Ein=V x I
average x t
Equation for one part of the output energy, heat, created in the liquid is: Eout1 = C2 x M2 x (T2-T) "
Symbol meanings in the formula are defined by you in related earlier posts.
Then you wrote your Reply #51 in which you wrote: "such a sophisticated experiment is not neccessary". I answered it of course.
2) Just because manufactured electrolyzers are made to compensate for say the temperature of electrolyte or consumed water or whatever as you referred to, they clearly influence the parameters of the electrolyte within the cell or chamber in which the electrolysis is carried out.
This way they kill the simple possibility of measuring say temperature rise under a t time duration the input current creates to have a certain amount of Hydrogen. Your mentioned 'Sub-system 1' just kills that. This is true mainly for Sub-system 2, too.
Otherwise, the use of such sub-systems 1 and 2 is certainly useful in an already working system, I agree but not good at all for validation measurements you are expected to do.
So I cannot give any simpler method to solve your question on a calorimetric Joule heat measurement other than I repeated here in my quotes.
3) On your equations or equalities: Yes Ohm's law V=IxR (1) is valid but I must stress the current should be an averaged value calculated from measured sample values for a T time duration as I mentioned already.
Your formula (2), VxI=IxIxR is an equation but again you are making the same (input) power level equal to the same input power level: what sense does this have? Also
formula (3) VxIxt=IxIxRxt is another equation, the left side expresses input energy to the electrolyte and the right hand side also expresses the same input energy: the two are obviously equal. What is your point? Now if you add a H heat quantity to the right hand side of your formula (3) to get formula (4), VxIxt=IxIxRxt+H, and then changing formula (4) into an inequality: VxIxt < IxIxRxt+H (5), here is what I think:
I agree that formula (4) cannot be true as you also wrote. I already wrote that the correct formula would be VxIxt=H (or IxIxRxt=H) where the left side is input energy and the right hand side is the heat from the burning Hydrogen + the created heat in the electrolyte.
And here with these equations VxIxt=H (or IxIxRxt=H) we assume the law of the conservation of energy is valid as an initial condition. AND whether this equation VxIxt=H (or IxIxRxt=H) becomes an inequality like
either VxIxt < H (or IxIxRxt < H) to give COP>1
or VxIxt > H (or IxIxRxt > H) to give COP<1, it can only be answered by measurements.
You cannot substitute real measurements with some manipulation of equations or inequalities to arrive at a COP>1 "conclusion", this is nonsense. Please understand this. If I were cynic, I would say the point of writing your equations (2) (3) was to intruduce the validity of the rest of your formulas...
It is not only me who would ask for correct measurements to prove your COP>1 claim for your proposed setup, imagine to market your setup and imagine you would need to persuade a consumer to buy your 'product' or heating system solution: you would need to include technical specifications from which the superiority of your heating system should turn out.
And HOW could you receive proof or licence from authorities to market your heating system if you cannot prove your claims with measurements? They are not interested in your equations or inequalities.
Quote
Please study EXTREMELY carefully Gyula's comments, which are brilliant examples of expert analysis and high qualification.
Thanks but whatever "brilliant examples of expert analysis" I have tried to give you in the past two months or so, you always acknowledged them and
then continued with "the how to escape the measurement" game, and this is unfortunate. By the way, F6FLT did give you very reasonable comments, see for instance his Reply #61
https://overunity.com/18134/a-simple-electric-heater-which-has-efficiency-greater-than-1/msg532237/#msg532237
and you cannot blame him that he may not have as much patience as I have hence he gives you more criticism. 8)
Gyula
Quote
...
U=R*I is what sees the generator, R being the apparent resistance of the solution, not the ohmic resistance.
In the solution, we have U1=R1*I which is the part really dissipated as heat in the ohmic resistance R1, and U1 = U-U2 where U2 is the oxydo-reduction potential. U1*I is dissipated as heat, U2*I is disspated as chemical energy for gas production, U*I is the total energy provided by the generator, not that dissipated in heat.
That's why U2 is named "reduction potential (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduction_potential)": the solution is viewed as a battery connected in series but in opposition to the generator.
...
Even more simply. Imagine you have a 5v battery with a 3 v battery connected in series but in opposition. Then you have now only 2v. So a moron would say to himself: "therefore I can charge a 5 v battery with a 2 v charger! It's overunity. I will publish my article on ou.com, and title it in capital letters "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC CHARGER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1. I'm so good! I am the new Tesla!". 8) ;D
That's what we face: the redox potential of the solution plays the role of the opposing battery.
Quote from: F6FLT on March 15, 2019, 12:52:40 PM
Even more simply. Imagine you have a 5v battery with a 3 v battery connected in series but in opposition. Then you have now only 2v. So a moron would say to himself: "therefore I can charge a 5 v battery with a 2 v charger! It's overunity. I will publish my article on ou.com, and title it in capital letters "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC CHARGER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1. I'm so good! I am the new Tesla!". 8) ;D
That's what we face: the redox potential of the solution plays the role of the opposing battery.
Hihihohohaha : IMPOSSIBLE POSSIBILITY
right or wrong polarisation by this
" A SIMPLE ELECTRIC CHARGER WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1"
claim :https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=BE&NR=438189A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=BE&NR=438189A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
Had been a bad time for inventors : WWII years and BE occupation
Quote from: lancaIV on March 15, 2019, 01:07:13 PM
Hihihohohaha : IMPOSSIBLE POSSIBILITY
right or wrong polarisation by this
" A SIMPLE ELECTRIC CHARGER WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1"
claim :https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=BE&NR=438189A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=BE&NR=438189A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
Had been a bad time for inventors : WWII years and BE occupation
This patent is the "idea" to couple a motor to a generator and hope for overunity by crossing their fingers. As for this OU heater delirium, it just lacks a magic formula like "abracadabra" for it to work. ::)
It seems that the text of the patent was written by a 13-year-old child, it is full of spelling mistakes and childish expressions, especially on technical issues. It is not surprising that the industry has never taken anything out of this patent.
Everyone has the right to behave stupidly, but at this point, is that really reasonable? This behaviour of egocentric morons who think to be Tesla without ever having built anything that works, is completely disrespectful of others, it wastes their time.
To gyulasun.
-----------------
Hi Gyula.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Yes, you are absolutely right that real measurements cannot be substituted with some manipulations of equations or inequalities which arrive at COP>1 conclusion. (We would not call them manipulations but standard mathematical operations, but anyway.)
2) Yes, we tried to escape the measurement game. But this is obviously not the correct approach. Real experiments have to be carried out.
3) So we are starting to carry out these experiments. The most difficult one seems to be the calorimetric measure of the heat generated by the electrolyte. Any good idea/advice how to do this in a simple and reliable manner?
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
To F6FLT.
To lancaIV.
------------------
Hi guys.
1) Please excuse me, if I have offended you in some way. I am sorry for this.
2) We are starting carrying out the real experiments. Any good ideas for simple and reliable experimental step-by-step procedures?
Looking forward to your answers.
Best regards,
George
Hi George,
I do not wish to tell you how to proceed with the actual tests. We have discussed several times what are to be measured, at least I wrote about them. How you achieve them is your solution, and whatever results you get, please report them. And if I or anyone else here asks questions on the measuring methods and devices you eventually used, then you can hopefully give answers, with photos on the setup etc. No need for a 800 page long report either.
I agree the biggest problem is to collect the deliberated hydrogen and then burning it so that from the heat created only a minimum quantity could escape into the enviroment and much part of the heat should heat up a given quantity of (say) water (or oil).
Perhaps local labs at universities or colleges or at high schools can give some equipment in this respect or they let them use by you in their lab. You do not have to tell them what exactly you want to prove, just say that you wish to perform an electrolysis with correct measurements that include the liquid's temperatures and the performed work of the burning hydrogen on heating up another liquid. Maybe they have a ready chamber for this latter process. Or the chemics or physics teacher can advise you on cheap possibilities. Perhaps start with figuring out in advance the quatity of water for instance, how much heat is needed to raise say half a liter of water from room temp to say 50 degree Celsius and whether this could be done in a heat isolated chamber from which only a minimum amount of heat could escape. etc etc.
Gyula
Quote from: George1 on February 27, 2019, 05:16:00 AM
--------------------
Therefore the link above actually explains everything.
In order to maintain M2=const, T2=const, I=const and R=const in the electrolyte you have to do only two things.
Firstly, you have to add constantly only pure water (as H2SO4 is not consumed in the reaction as shown in the above link and in the above quote) in the electrolyzer thus keeping M2=const.
Secondly, you have to cool down constantly the electrolyzer thus (a) consuming constantly the Joule's heat for useful purposes and (b) keeping T2=const, I=const and R=const. (Because as you know the ohmic resistance of any electrolyte depends on temperature, that is, the ohmic resistance of any electrolyte decreases with rise in temperature. In order to avoid this you cool constantly the electrolyte thus keeping constant values for T2, I and R, respectively.)
----------------------
Change in the temperature effects resistance, as resistance changes and applied voltage is constant, electric
current varies.
Measuring input wattage not current (use a watt meter), will simplify / eliminate this aspect / Question of
temperature variation of the electrolyte over time / need to maintain a constant current over the time duration.
floor
Hi guys.
Let me report what we have done until now.
We attack vigorously the problem, related to the required real experiment. We found a HOGEN H6m hydrogen generator at a distance of 100 km from the place we live. Every day at least two members of our team travel and cover this distance of 100 km in order to carry out a set of experiments. It will take some time. But we will do it!
--------------------------
Meanwhile we came upon some very interesting things.
Please have a look at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
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For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
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12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
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The above solved problem has a potential which can be developed further. And here it is.
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
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Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.
Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
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And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
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Therefore the text above unambiguously shows that it is a matter of exact experimental data which is in perfect accordance with theory. Because I cannot imagine that three highly qualified experts in physics (yet strongly separated by time, space and nationality) would have made one and same mistake three times in a row. This is impossible!
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Looking forward to your answers.
Regards,
George
Hi George,
I thought you would arrive at some work-out school examples on hydrogen production. 8) No problem with this approach because from such calculations one can estimate in advance what hydrogen quantity could be expected to receive from a (hopefully also) known input power.
So the calculations show that one could achieve a COP of 1.35 or 1.37. Now the question is how this COP number comes out in practice ?
I think you need to start with either a DC or AC source available and work from there. If an AC source is used for electrolysis, then there is a certain conversion efficiency involved for the AC to DC converter. I may sound as if I am kidding with such details but I am not: you and your team will surely face this when examining the Hogen H6m hydrogen generator (i.e. the Series H from manufacturer Proton Onsite Electrolyzers) in this respect.
Even though it is a professionally 'sounding' generator, its efficiency is written in a book as 50.6 % + 10 % i.e. around 61 %. The efficiency for the Series C (from the same manufacturer) is 59 % + 10 % = 69 %, this indicated by the book as the highest efficiency product among their hydrogen generator family. The 10 % addition is the energy removed earlier from the overall system efficiency so I added them up. The reason is the hydrogen should be dried to comply with the required purity specifications. Drying needs additional energy (about 10%) from the AC mains input and the liberated hydrogen goes through the built-in dryer.
The book in which I found these data can be read online, see "Chapter 3.2.3.3 Proton Onsite PEM Electrolyzer" here (pages 136 and 137 and PEM is short for Proton Exchange Membrane):
https://books.google.com/books?id=dyEtAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA136&dq=HOGEN+H6m+hydrogen+generator&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzxKK8wqDhAhUGt4sKHa5LA70Q6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=HOGEN%20H6m%20hydrogen%20generator&f=false
(If Page 137 comes up blank, try to scroll down a few pages and then back, it will become visible)
and here is the manufacturer site on their Series H machines:
https://www.protononsite.com/products-proton-site/h2-h4-h6 There is PDF file with the specifications for the H6 machine.
Maybe your team members travelling to the place will be allowed to measure the average DC current and DC voltage which actually does the electrolysis ? Unfortunately, to do this (and supposing it will be permitted), the electrolyser cabinet should be opened to gain access to the electrodes wiring/cable system etc.
Notice 1. You used the HHV data of hydrogen which is ok when you utilize the latent heat of vaporization too that appears say as "hot air" (if I am not mistaken) as the result of the hydrogen gas burning with the ambient air oxigen while the flame heats up say a bucket of water. For the shake of completeness, I would consider the lower heating value, the LHV of the hydrogen too, which is 119.96 MJ/kg and in your 1st book example the outlet energy 2 in this case would be 11996 J. So the COP in your calculated example would be (37446+11996)/38232=1.29 this is no problem for you because still above 100%. :)
Notice 2. You wrote: "Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance."
Well, the latter reasoning may sound logical but the question is whether you accept the efficiency specified for the H6m type hydrogen generator as 61 % or you are ready to check the average current and voltage the machine actually uses during a chosen time duration and then estimate input energy from those measurements? Provided of course whether such measurements are allowed by the owners or operators of the machine,
Knowing the actual input energy would greatly help estimating COP and would avoid the AC-DC conversion and other extra losses involved with the machine, provided the exact amount of hydrogen is correctly measured by the machine under a chosen time duration what the machine surely does, no doubt.
Notice 3. You wrote: "Therefore the text above unambiguously shows that it is a matter of exact experimental data which is in perfect accordance with theory."
Well, I cannot disconfirm whether the numbers used in the two calculation examples you took from the books are obtained by actual measurements, I 'have to accept' they are practically close to reality. I may 'have to accept' also that the 'highly qualified experts' actually measured the input power for instance by monitoring the input current and voltage and I 'have to believe' that this measured power then corresponded to the calculated 31.86 W (or the 37 W), we simply 'have to' accept this. This is not nit-picking from me, just a notice that you still do not have correct measurements results.
Hopefully, you and the team get closer and closer to obtain real and measured data. I am not against your claims.
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply. Thanks a lot for your brilliant and expert analysis. Please give us some time to consider carefully your last post and prepare the related answers.
Regards,
George
Hi Gyula.
Here are our answers.
1) Yes, you are absolutely right, that it's worth to think over some work-out school examples on hydrogen production. This approach seems to be as if simpler, easier and cheaper. Good idea! We already started discussing it. May be the Hoffman voltameter is most suitable for the purpose.
2) About the Hogen 6m hydrogen generator.
2A) Yes, you guessed correctly that our initial intention to open the electrolyzer cabinet and gain access to the electrodes wiring/cable system etc. was strongly disapproved and denied.
2B) So we have to change the approach. Having in mind the Hogen 6m main technical data (which according to the Hogen's operators coincide with the real measurements) we made some simple calculations.
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A) 40.8 kWh of energy is necessary for the production of 0.6875 kg of hydrogen within a period of 1 hour. Besides 40.8 kWh = 146,880,000 J.
B) LHV of hydrogen (as you wrote in your last post) is 120,000,000 J. Therefore the heat of burning of 0.6875 kg of hydrogen is given by
0.6875 x 120,000,000 = 82,500,000 J.
C) If Hogen 6m is considered as a hydrogen generator only, then its efficiency is given by
82,500,000 J/146,880,000 J = 0.56.
D) Hogen 6m machine operators told us also that AC is converted to DC by a simple standard Graetz rectifier system. Therefore an AC 40.8 kWh of energy is just equal to a DC 40.8 kWh of energy as current flows alternatively through the two "branches" of the Graetz rectifier system 50 or 60 times per second.
E) Let us determine current I (DC) which flows through the electrolyte and through the Graetz rectifier system as (1) the Graetz rectifier system is considered as one united whole and (2) the Graetz rectifier system and the electrolyte are connected in series. The current I is given by
I = (m)/(Z x t) <=> I = 19000 A
where
m = 0.6875 kg of hydrogen liberated within a period of 1 hour
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen, kg/C
t = 3600 s
F) The total ohmic resistance R of the connected in series (1) electrolyte and (2) Graetz rectifier system (the latter considered as one united whole) is 0.0001 Ohm approximately.
G) If Hogen 6m machine is considered as a total heat generator, then its COP is given by
(146,880,000 + 82,500,000)/(146,880,000) = 1.56 > 1.
(Notice. 146,880,000 J is the Joule's heat generated by both the electrolyte and the Graetz rectifier system connected in series. Let us remind again that the Graetz rectifier is considered as one united whole whose ohmic resistance R1 is smaller than R, that is, R1 < R or R1 < 0.0001 Ohm.)
H) The Hogen 6m hydrogen generator has systems which keep a constant pure water and cooling agent supply, which on their behalf keep a constant mass, temperature and ohmic resistance of electrolyte and Graetz rectifier. If you touch with your palm the outer surface of the Hogen 6m hydrogen generator, then you feel neither heat nor cold. The temparature is neutral, that is, the temperature is always approximately equal to the temperature of the human body, although the electrolyser has been working without stopping for many hours.
-----------------------
The above approximate calculations seem to be correct, more or less. They are based on the Hogen 6m's main technical data.
What is your opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
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P.S. We intend now to focus all our efforts on some school experiments related to hydrogen generation. Your advice is really good!
Hi George,
Well, it was "expected" they would not let even open the cabinet door of the Hogen 6m machine...
You may have checked the link I gave to the manufacturer's web page on the machine where there is a photo with an opened cabinet door to take a look at the inside parts. You can see it if you scroll down in this link:
https://www.protononsite.com/products-proton-site/h2-h4-h6
and in the lower right corner you can see the actual Cell Stack which does the electrolysis. Click on the yellow + icons to open further close-ups on the parts. Because the Cell Stack is very likely a thermally well isolated 'box', no wonder your team could not feel heat to the touch on the side walls of the cabinet, ok.
What you mention under point D) (what the operators told you) is interesting in that only a Graetz rectifier system is used. One would expect a step-up AC-DC switch mode power supply instead but this is a secondary question of course.
From the spec sheet of the machine https://www.protononsite.com/sites/default/files/2019-02/H%20Series.pdf
it turns out the electrical requirement for the machine is 380-415 VAC, three phase, 50 Hz (or 480 VAC, three phase, 60 Hz).
So suppose we full wave rectify say 400 V, 3 phase 50 Hz AC input and we get say 540 VDC from the Graetz output.
Now, if 540 VDC is available for electrolysis, then the 19000 Amper current you calculated from the formula would amount to 540*19000*3600 = 36936000000 J (36.936 GJ) energy consumed during 1 hour.
If we divide 540 VDC by 19000 Amper, the resistance R would be 0.0284 Ohm, this is in conflict with your 0.0001 Ohm estimation. Can you explain this?
because then your COP calculation of 1.56 for the Hogen machine becomes questionable?
How did you arrive at to get 0.0001 Ohm overall resistance for the electrolyte and the rest of the circuit in series with it?
Anyway these are but 'small problems' probably existing in paper only, the focus should really be on doing tests.
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Yes, it seems reasonable to accept 540 VDC from the Graetz output. Please give us some time to re-consider carefully again our test results and, if necessary, to make some additional calculations and carry out some additional tests.
2) Meanwhile, following your good recommendation, we are working hard on some school experiments related to water electrolysis. It will take some time to do everything in a precise manner.
I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
George
Hi Gyula,
We as if managed to clear up the situation.
1) The Hogen 6m machine operators are young men who started working in the factory 3 months ago only. So we contacted one of the older operators who has retired on pension 3 months ago and who told us that Hogen 6m is actually not a very simple machine. The inlet 3-phase AC is reduced to a lower AC and after that converted to DC by a complex and sophisticated system including transformers, diodes, control electronics and other components. So our 540 VDC assumption is obviously not correct.
2) The retired operator likes very much our concept related to considering of any standard water-splitting electrolyzer as a heater of COP > 1. He says that Hogen 6m's electric circuits are too many in number and too complex and sophisticated and it is very difficult to solve the problem related to calculation of each circuit one by one. Instead, he says, it is just enough to use only the figures 40.8 kWh and 0.6875 kg of liberated hydrogen per hour. Because, the operator says, these 40.8 kWh of electric energy transform entirely into 40.8 kWh of Joule's heat no matter what is the resistor (a solid one, a liquid one or a combination of solid and liquid one connected in series (the latter being the Hogen 6m case)) and no matter whether it is an AC or a DC. But in addition to the Joule's heat the liquid resistor generates hydrogen, which if burned/exploded, gives an additional and substantial portion of heat. Our new friend (that same retired Hogen 6m operator) calculates COP as
(146880000+82500000)/146880000 = 1.56 > 1.
So you can see that the former experienced Hogen 6m operator's line of reasoning entirely coincides with ours as we do not try to influence him in any way.
3) About the school and home-made water-splitting experiments.
3A) There are hundreds (and may be thousands) experiments of this kind in Internet, in general, and on YouTube, in partial. All experiments, described in Internet, confirm WITHOUT EXCEPTION our basic concept that any standard hydrogen-generating and water-splitting electrolyser can be considered as a heater of COP > 1. We already repeated tens of times many of these experiments. The easiest ones are with seawater (there is already a big container of seawater in front of our laboratory) and with tap (or pure) water either with table salt (NaCl) or with baking soda (NaHCO3). (The latter being preferred because, if used in electrolysis, NaCl liberates dangerous Cl.)
3B) Now we are preparing an experiment with sulphuric acid. It will take some time, because sulphuric acid is a special and dangerous substance and we have to be very careful. This experiment has to be carried out in a most safety and precise manner.
3C) And one more experimental device is under construction. I will write to you about it in the nearest future.
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi again Gyula,
Here is my next report.
The retired former Hogen 6m's operator became a strong supporter of our cause. He considered carefully all posts in this topic written until now and noticed something that had to be corrected. Our new friend and supporter shares the fundamental point of view that the validity of the Joule's heat law directly derives from the Ohm's law and vice versa, that is,
V = I x R (1) <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t (2)
where
V is the voltage of the battery;
I is the current flowing through the resistor;
R is the ohmic resistance of the resistor;
t is time.
(Note. Both sides of equality (1) are simply multiplied simultaneously by (I x t) and the result is equality (2).)
But, as our new friend notices, the last two equalities (1) and (2) are strictly valid only for solid resistors. For liquid resistors (electrolytes) equalities (1) and (2) have to be re-written again in a little different manner, that is,
(V - v) = (I - i) x R (3) <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t= (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (4)
where
v is the minimum voltage necessary for the water-splitting electrolysis to begin; v = 1.5 volts by definition;
i is the related small decreasing of current I, caused by the presence of v.
But if V is much bigger than v (that is, if for example V = 100 volts and v = 1.5 volts), then we can assume that equalities (1) and (2) are perfectly valid for the liquid resistor (electrolyte) too as v and i can be neglected.
And from here follows again the expression for COP, which is given by
COP = ((V x I x t) + (H))/(I x I x R x t) > 1 (5)
where H is the heat of burning/exploding of hydrogen generated, HHV or LHV.
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So the fact that a highly-qualified and experienced man of more than 30 years of practice related to electrolysers became our supporter gives us an additional strong confidence that the water-splitting electrolysis is really a heating process of COP > 1. It simply follows from (1), (2), (3), (4) and (5).
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
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P. S. We keep carrying out experiments. All tests until now confirm the validity of (1), (2), (3), (4) and (5).
Hi Gyula,
Let me report what we have done.
1) Our (already) numerous experiments show that the theoretical value of the minimum potential difference of 1.484 volts, which is necessary for the water-splitting electrolysis to begin (Prof. S. L. Srivastava, M. Sc., Ph. D., Solved Problems in Physics, Volume - 2, solved problem 12.94, p. 875), is actually a little bigger and varies between 1.7 and 2 volts. Obviously this is due to the electrode potential, overvoltage, side reactions, etc. But this 1.7 - 2 volts correction practically does not influence the validity of the main concept, i.e., the validity of the inequality COP > 1.
2) Besides there are at least 10 (ten) extremely precise and detailed experimental research papers written by a bunch of highly qualified electrochemistry experts from Japan, India and China. (These three countries seem to the leaders in the field of water-splitting electrolysis as a theory and practice.) We simply took their experimental results. The new summation result was again COP > 1. (It is important to stress upon the fact that the experimental data from the above mentioned research papers is obtained in a much more precise manner than our one -- this is due to the presence of high-quality equipment and highly-qualified experimenters.)
3) Our new friend and supporter, the retired Hogen 6m's operator, says that our COP > 1 conception simply gathers together TRUE experimental facts, which have been WRONGLY considered IN ISOLATION until now.
4) We keep carrying out experiments.
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi Gyula,
I am sending to you the sulphuric acid experimental results as promised. We simply repeated the experiment described in solved problem 12.97 (Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, Prof. S. L. Srivastava, Ph.D.). The experimental approach and the test results are briefly described below.
1) A glass container, which has a form of a rectangular parallelepiped and which has dimensions 0.01m/0.01m/0.37m, is filled entirely with 30 % sulphuric acid. Two electrodes are dipped in the electrolyte in the two opposite ends of the container. The ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is just equal to 0.5 Ohm. The glass container has no upper lid -- it is open from above.
2) The glass container is situated on a horizontal table in such a manner that its longest side (0.37m) is horizontal,i.e., parallel to the horizontal Earth's surface.
3) The electrolyte is connected in series to a variable resistor (rheostat) in order to control and adjust (if necessary) the value of the current. And more precisely, the circuit consists of a DC source, a variable resistor (rheostat) and a glass container filled with sulphuric acid. These three components are connected in series.
4) Within a period of 20 minutes it can be clearly observed that one of the electrodes generates bubbles of hydrogen (the latter produces flame/explodes slightly if fired) and the other electrode generates bubbles of oxygen.
5) In order to keep a constant value of the current without using the rheostat we had to keep pouring (from time to time) pure water in the container and keep cooling it down. (It was not an easy operation and was a little dangerous.)
6) The experimental COP results always varied around 1.29 (which was calculated by you assuming that hydrogen's LHV is equal to 120 MJ per kilogram of liberated hydrogen). Sometimes we got COP = 1.21, sometimes COP = 1.37, sometimes COP = 1.28, etc.; the mean value being around 1.29.
7) We have carried out already almost 100 experiments using various electrolytes in order to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. COP was always bigger than 1, i. e., COP > 1. Most of the already carried out experiments can be found in Internet and on YouTube and we simply coppied/repeated them.
8) It seems to us that there is no sense to keep carrying out other experiments. Their number is already equal to 100 and all these 100 experiments unambiguously show that experimental results confirm theory. COP > 1.
9) Besides (as mentioned in our previous post) there are at least 10 (ten) extremely precise and detailed experimental research papers written by a bunch of highly qualified electrochemistry experts from Japan, India and China. (These three countries seem to the leaders in the field of water-splitting electrolysis as a theory and practice.) We simply took their experimental results. The new summation result was again COP > 1. (It is important to stress upon the fact that the experimental data from the above mentioned research papers is obtained in a much more precise manner than our one -- this is due to the presence of high-quality equipment and highly-qualified experimenters.)
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi George,
Thanks for your posts on the activity you and the team have been doing on this electric heater topic.
It is good that you can get help from the now retired former Hogan 6m type machine operator.
It is even better that you found out that textbook examples cannot be trusted 100% in practice (electrode potential issue etc what was already mentioned by F6FLT), even if Professor M.Sc. Ph.D persons write them for students.
Regarding the research papers you mention, well, they may have more scientific approach and test results than textbook examples but of course you need to take and interpret them carefully too. If you do not mind I would be interested in the papers titles and their authors, just out of curiosity.
All in all, the only thing to achieve is to prove the COP > 1 claim for your setup by correct measurements if you want scientific community accept the claim. Especially so when such a setup is to be marketed as a product, having an unusually high efficiency that beats any other heaters already in use.
PS I already wrote this answer in Notebook when I noticed your latest answer a few minutes ago, will return later.
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Looking forward to your answer related to my last post.
Regards,
George
Hi George,
Well, if you repeat an experiment and presumably measure a few things, it is desirable to include some more details besides you have given in the above text.
I think of, for instance, the DC voltage amplitude and the measured current you had to provide for 20 minute, you wrote nothing about these.
This involves using either a separate voltage and a current meter like two DMMs or perhaps such meters are built into a DC power supply if you used such type.
A glass bodied mercury thermometer merged into the electrolyte or say the use of an infra thermometer is also missing from your report: it would be more convincing you check temperature of the electrolyte, after stirring up the electrolyte a little to insure more or less equal temperature for the whole quantity inside the container.
One more question: how did you measure the electrolyte had indeed 0.5 Ohm resistance between the 2 electrodes?
It would also be good to see your setup in one or two snapshot pictures taken any time within the 20 minute long operating time. The pictures would show the meters together with the glass container and its electrodes.
By the way what material the two electrodes you use are made of?
The inclusion of these all would be a bit more scientific than your written text.
Now comes the most important question: how do you know the quantity of the liberated hidrogen during your test was pretty close enough to 100 mg what the Professor calculated in his textbook example (what he gave as an exercise for his students)?
You or we know nothing about the test circumstances the Professor had for his example regarding how the electrolyte temperature hence the 0.5 Ohm resistance changed. (It is obvious that from the students point of view the circumstances of such tests are irrelevant, they are 'happy' to use a math formula and calculate say the input power to solve the question.)
You may say I am nit-picking with you but I am not: all these are valid details and questions that such experiment, once performed, should include in a report. I mean not specifically reporting for me but for the scientific world whenever someone claims an unusual statement. It is not me who doubts any COP > 1 result here but those professors, MS and Ph 'Doctors' who have already missed this recognition (a 'simple' ego question) you seem to have figured out so they simply will want to fully neglect you unless you show rock stable measurement results.
And as I already said if a new electric heater is to be produced and marketed, operating on your idea, then specifications for such heater should be provided, from which any higher efficiency than that of the other heaters already on the market should clearly turn out. Till this is not proved by measurements your claim remains a claim however the common sense or logics suggests otherwise.
I am still interested in the titles and authors of those scientific papers you have referred to if you do not mind.
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Yes, we perfectly agree with all you have written in your last post. We will do our best to fulfil all of your requirements. But it will take some time because our access to the high-tech laboratory, in which we carry out experiments, is a little difficult.
2) Meanwhile I am sending to you some interesting links as you asked in your yesterday post.
2A) http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/electrolysis.html
This link describes the basic postulates of water-splittig electrolysis. It confirms the validity of our COP > 1 concept.
2B) https://calistry.org/calculate/faradayLawElectrolysis
This link allows to calculate easily the amount of the generated hydrogen by using the experimental data for current I, time t and electrochemical equivalent Z of hydrogen. We used this approach in our experiments without weighing the generated hydrogen.
2C) http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1516-14392014000100012
This link contains ready experimental data, which confirm again the validity of our COP > 1. Why don't we use ready experimental data instead of performing again experiments that have been already performed?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi again Gyula,
And one more 81-pages research experimental work:
http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf
Ready experimental results, confirming COP > 1. Why don't we use them?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
To Gyula and to all other guys who are interested in the topic.
---------------------------
One question.
1) Imagine that an AC or a DC voltage source is connected to a standard resistor of ohmic resistanse R. (The resistor is either solid or liquid or gaseous or some combination of the three.)
2) The AC/DC voltage source generates electric energy of 180,000,000 J.
3) The question is what is the Joule's heat generated by the resistor? Is it possible this Joule's heat to be equal to 60,000,000 J? Or to 40,000,000 J?
4) In the case of the liquid resistor (electrolyte) the AC/DC source's voltage is much bigger than the electrode potential and overvoltage and the latter can be neglected.
5) Let us remind again that the Joule's heat law directly derives from the Ohm's law and vice versa, that is,
V = I x R (1) <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t (2)
where
V is voltage;
I is current;
R is ohmic resistance;
t is time.
(Note. We simply multiply by (I x t) both sides of equality (1) in order to get equality (2).)
(Note. In the AC case we consider the effective values of voltage and current.)
6) So let us repeat the question. If the AC/DC voltage source generates electric energy of 180,000,000 J, then what is the Joule's heat generated by the resistor? Is it possible this Joule's heat to be equal to 60,000,000 J? Or to 40,000,000 J?
---------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on April 16, 2019, 10:48:29 AM
Hi again Gyula,
And one more 81-pages research experimental work:
http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf (http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf)
Ready experimental results, confirming COP > 1. Why don't we use them?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Well, the author of that work used a Proton Exchange Membrane, do you have such device? The thesis surely includes useful pieces of information, no doubt.
George, reading several of your posts, you seem to do quasi everything to convince members or readers "logically" that all the work have already been done earlier and you try to imply in most of your 'mathematical' answers that no need to do further tests.
I understand that it is hard to do correct tests, it needs time and resources for sure and as I wrote much earlier, I do not urge you. I just try to keep you on a 'scientific' track from which you are often attempt wandering off. ::)
But obviously, you can do it on your own way. My take on your claim is that it is possible but until not proved by correct measurements, it is just a claim. Such is science.
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Yes, I perfectly agree with you. Yes, we tried to shortcut the path to the target, but you are right that this is not the correct approach. We will do these experiments trying to be in a constant touch with you for consultations and recommendations.
2) We have to see if it is possible to find somewhere here such a PEM electrolyzer and consider it carefully.
I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regrds,
George
--------------------
P. S. By the way do you have some friend/colleague who is an expert in the field of computer simulation of real mechanical systems? I will be extremely grateful to you if you find for me such an expert. Looking forward to your answer.
Hi again Gyua.
Only a small addition to the P. S. of my last post. The expert must be able to do things similar to the ones that are shown in the links below:
https://www.myphysicslab.com/springs/collide-spring-en.html
https://www.myphysicslab.com/springs/dangle-stick-en.html
https://www.myphysicslab.com/springs/collide-blocks-en.html
https://www.myphysicslab.com/
Please help, if possible.
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi Gyula.
Two members of our team seriously undertake to perform the water-splitting experiments. It will take some time however.
-------------------
While waiting for the experimental results let us recapitulate again all theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) considerations until now.
-------------------
1) A standard DC voltage source of voltage V is connected to a standard solid resistor of ohmic resistance R. We can write down the following equalities:
V = I x R (1) <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t (2)
where
V is the voltage of the DC source;
I is the current flowing through the resistor;
R is the ohmic resistance of the resistor;
t is time.
Simple and clear.
-------------------
2) The situation changes a little however if we replace the solid resistor of ohmic resistance R with a liquid resistor (electrolyte) of the same ohmic resistance R. In this case we have to adapt a little equalities (1) and (2). We can write down the following equalities and inequalities:
V - v = (I - i) x R (3) <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t = (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (4) <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t < ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t) + (Z x (I -i) x t x (LHV)) (5) <=>
<=> V -v < ((I -i) x R) + (Z x (LHV)) (6) <=> 0 < Z x (LHV) (7) <=> 0 < 1.2 (8)
where
v is the "counter-voltage" due to electrode potential/overvoltage; (V - v) is practically equal to V because v is much smaller than V and can be neglected;
i is the current decrease due to v; (I - i) is practically equal to I because i is much smaller than I and can be neglected;
Z is the electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen; Z = 0.00000001 C/kg;
LHV is the lower heating value of hydrogen; LHV = 1.2 x 100000000 J/kg.
--------------------
The "magic":) inequality (8) unambiguously shows COP > 1. Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against inequality (8)?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi Gyula.
Two members of our team seriously undertake to perform the water-splitting experiments. It will take some time however.
-------------------
While waiting for the experimental results let us recapitulate again all theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) considerations until now.
-------------------
1) A standard DC voltage source of voltage V is connected to a standard solid resistor of ohmic resistance R. We can write down the following equalities:
V = I x R (1) <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t (2)
where
V is the voltage of the DC source;
I is the current flowing through the resistor;
R is the ohmic resistance of the resistor;
t is time.
Simple and clear.
-------------------
2) The situation changes a little however if we replace the solid resistor of ohmic resistance R with a liquid resistor (electrolyte) of the same ohmic resistance R. In this case we have to adapt a little equalities (1) and (2). We can write down the following equalities and inequalities:
V - v = (I - i) x R (3) <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t = (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (4) <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t < ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t) + (Z x (I -i) x t x (LHV)) (5) <=>
<=> V -v < ((I -i) x R) + (Z x (LHV)) (6) <=> 0 < Z x (LHV) (7) <=> 0 < 1.2 (8)
where
v is the "counter-voltage" due to electrode potential/overvoltage; (V - v) is practically equal to V because v is much smaller than V and can be neglected;
i is the current decrease due to v; (I - i) is practically equal to I because i is much smaller than I and can be neglected;
Z is the electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen; Z = 0.00000001 C/kg;
LHV is the lower heating value of hydrogen; LHV = 1.2 x 100000000 J/kg.
--------------------
The "magic" inequality (8) unambiguously shows COP > 1. Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against inequality (8)?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi Gyula.
Two members of our team seriously undertake to perform the water-splitting experiments. It will take some time however.
-------------------
While waiting for the experimental results let us recapitulate again all theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) considerations until now.
-------------------
1) A standard DC voltage source of voltage V is connected to a standard solid resistor of ohmic resistance R. We can write down the following equalities:
V = I x R (1) <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t (2)
where
V is the voltage of the DC source;
I is the current flowing through the resistor;
R is the ohmic resistance of the resistor;
t is time.
Simple and clear.
-------------------
2) The situation changes a little however if we replace the solid resistor of ohmic resistance R with a liquid resistor (electrolyte) of the same ohmic resistance R. In this case we have to adapt a little equalities (1) and (2). We can write down the following equalities and inequalities:
V - v = (I - i) x R (3) <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t = (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (4) <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t < ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t) + (Z x (I -i) x t x (LHV)) (5) <=>
<=> V -v < ((I -i) x R) + (Z x (LHV)) (6) <=> 0 < Z x (LHV) (7) <=> 0 < 1.2 (8)
where
v is the "counter-voltage" due to electrode potential/overvoltage; (V - v) is practically equal to V because v is much smaller than V and can be neglected;
i is the current decrease due to v; (I - i) is practically equal to I because i is much smaller than I and can be neglected;
Z is the electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen; Z = 0.00000001 C/kg;
LHV is the lower heating value of hydrogen; LHV = 1.2 x 100000000 J/kg.
--------------------
The "magic" inequality 0 < 1.2 (8) unambiguously shows COP > 1. Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against inequality 0 < 1.2 (8)?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
I don't know why my last post was sent three times in a row. It's not my fault.
George
Hi George,
First I need to draw attention to a typo, you wrote Z = 0.00000001 C/kg but the dimension is kg/C, ok?
I already wrote in my Reply #70 that the correct formula would be VxIxt = H (or IxIxRxt = H) where the left hand side is input energy and the right hand side is the heat from the burning Hydrogen + the created heat in the electrolyte (the latter two heat quantities are the total output energy).
And here with these equations VxIxt = H (or IxIxRxt = H) we assume the law of the conservation of energy is valid as an initial condition.
AND whether this equation VxIxt = H (or IxIxRxt = H) becomes an inequality like either VxIxt < H (or IxIxRxt < H) to give COP > 1 or VxIxt > H (or IxIxRxt > H) to give COP < 1, it can only be answered by measurements. (For simplicity, I omitted counter voltage and current, v and i from the formulas.)
No need to deal with theoretical considerations in this case. I already mentioned also that your idea is good, and common sense would readily suggest a COP > 1 result. BUT common sense is not science.
Gyula
Hi Gyula.
Thank you for your reply.
1) Yes, common sense is not science. Correct! We keep performing experiments. It will take some time.
2) But if equation V x I x t = I x I x R x t = H is correct, then what happens with Joule' s heat? Where does it go? Does it disapper somewhere or what? Curious to know. Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi George,
Please read my previous post (or my earlier reply #70) what I wrote I had meant on H:
"... is the heat from the burning Hydrogen + the created heat in the electrolyte (the latter two heat quantities are the total output energy)".
So the Joule heat from the electrolyte does not dissappear of course. And I can only repeat the rest of what I wrote too:
"And here with these equations VxIxt = H (or IxIxRxt = H) we assume the law of the conservation of energy is valid as an initial condition.
AND whether this equation VxIxt = H (or IxIxRxt = H) becomes an inequality like either VxIxt < H (or IxIxRxt < H) to give COP > 1 or VxIxt > H (or IxIxRxt > H) to give COP < 1, it can only be answered by measurements. (For simplicity, I omitted counter voltage and current, v and i from the formulas.)"
This is all that can comment on your theoretical math questions now and in the future.
Gyula
Hi Gyula.
Thank you for your reply. Perfect explanations! I understand everything.
----------------------------
Let me report what are we doing now.
We are intensively performing now a set of experiments just in accordance with your instructions. But the experiments generate another new question and WE NEED HELP TO INTERPRET THE RELATED EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS which again coincide with our theoretical concept. And here is this new question. (Actually this is an old idea of ours which we check up in the course of experiments and which has even one more additional and more sophisticated variation. The latter will be revealed in future posts, if necessary.)
----------------------------
1) In accordance with your last post let us assume hypothetically that equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (LHV)) is valid.
2) And now let us decrease n times voltage V where R = const and n > 1. This inevitably leads to decreasing of I n times too. In one word, we have now voltage (V/n) and current (I/n) where (V/n) is still bigger than v and (I/n) is still bigger than i. Therefore BASED ON EXPERIMENTAL DATA we can write down the following equality and the related inequality:
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (LHV)) <=> (V/n) x (I/n) x t < ((I/n) x (I/n) x R x t) + (Z x (I/n) x t x (LHV)).
The last inequality unambiguously shows again that COP > 1.
So you see that an entirely different approach leads again to the same final result which is again COP > 1.
---------------------------
What is your opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Hi George,
You can do several manipulations on mathematical equations or inequalities as long as the math rules are observed.
On manipulations I mean you can divide by, multiply by, add to or substract numbers from both sides, the equation symbol between both sides of the equation remains correct (or the inequality symbol does not change direction), again this is so as long as the rules for doing the manipulations are not broken (like multiplying both sides of an inequality by say a negative number). But you surely know these, the point is this:
You again returned to those equalities and inequalities, and I wrote which ones I think to be correct for characterizing the process.
So I can again repeat, for the last time, that this is all that I can comment on your theoretical or hypothetical math questions. Please understand this. I will not consider your posts any more when you include such attempts.
By the way, how can you expect anybody here to give opinion, to interpret your experimental results which are not known? How can help be given?
What opinion can be given on the obvious: if the input DC voltage is decreased across a resistor, the input current also decreases proportionally ? (provided a liquid resistor remains pretty closely linear in its electrical conductivity behaviour which let's suppose can be maintained). So what?
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
------------------
1) You are right, of course. I will not argue with you -- experiments have to confirm theory -- no doubt about this.
2) At the same time however in our previous posts we use simple formulas, (a) which are based on experimental facts and (b) which have been working successfully for 200 years. And simple mathematical operations (not manipulations -- we would not agree with this definition) with these simple formulas unambiguously show that under certain conditions standard water-splitting electrolysis has COP > 1. That's all. Simple and clear.
3) We keep performing experiments.
George
Hi George,
Yes the word 'operation' is better to use here than 'manipulation' when dealing with mathematical equations or inequalities etc. Mathematics has its own special technical terms and my word selection was not fortunate.
And I did not mean using 'manipulate' negatively (it certainly has a negative meaning too) but if you look it up in big dictionaries, it has the 'handle' or even the 'edit' meanings too.
Good luck in performing the experiments, it surely takes time and no need for any hurry.
Gyula
Hi Gyula.
------------------
Thank you for your reply. And thank you for your good will and patience. You are a real friend.
------------------
Now let me report what we have done until now.
We found a bunch of several identical PEM water-splitting electrolyzers at a distance of 500 km from the place we live. The related manufacturer was again Proton Onsite.
------------------
Most important specifications of this type of electrolyzer are as follows.
Name: C10 Hydrogen Generation System.
Power consumption rate: 68.9 kWh/kg.
Water consumption rate: 9L/hr.
Electrical supply: 342 to 456 VAC, 3 Phase, 50 Hz.
------------------
And here is our step-by-step experimental procedure.
------------------
1) We tested one single electrolyzer. The voltage applied was 400 VAC, 3 Phase, 50 Hz. The experimental results coincide in general with the above mentioned specifications.
------------------
2) We connected two electrolyzers in parallel. After that we connected another two electrolyzers in parallel too. After that we connected in series these two couples of connected-in-parallel electrolyzers (we used long wires of big cross-section, because the electrolyzers were situated in different rooms) thus forming a series-parallel circuit consisting of four identical electrolyzers.
------------------
3) The voltage applied to the circuit was again 400 VAC, 3 Phase, 50 Hz. The test results were as follows.
3A) Power consumption rate: 68.9 kWh/2 kg.
3B) Water consumption rate: 18 L/hr.
4) And here is what we get for COP.
4A) 68.9 kWh/kg = 248040000 J/kg and LHV of hydrogen = 120000000 J/kg.
4B) Joule's heat = 248040000 - 120000000 = 128040000 J. ( This equality is assumed to be true according to your requirements.)
-------------------
4C) COP for the single-electrolyzer case (item 1) is given by:
COP = (128040000 + 120000000)/(248040000) = 1.
------------------
4D) COP for the four-electrolyzers-circuit case (items 2 and 3) is given by:
COP = (4 x ((128040000/4) + (120000000/2)))/(248040000) = 2 > 1.
Note 1. Hydrogen generation. Each single electrolyzer generated 0.5 kg/hr and the four electrolyzers generated together 2 kg/hr.
Note 2. Cooling agent consumption. The cooling agent consumption rate for each single electrolyzer decreased 4 times. But the electrolyzers were 4 (four) in number and thus the cooling agent consumption rate remained the same.
Note 3. Water consumption. Each electrolyzer consumed 4.5 L/hr but the electrolyzers were four in number and consumed together 18 L/hr.
-------------------
(Only please don't ask me how did we manage to perform all the above described experiments. It costed us a lot of money, time and effort. Three members of our team (two colleagues and I) had to cover several times a distance of of 500 km (back and forth) in order to carry out the tests. Fortunately, part of our travelling group was the mentioned-in-my-previous-posts retired Hogen 6m operator who helped us a lot by using his contacts and his technology skills.)
-------------------
So it is as if evident that whatever to do the water-splitting electrolysis has always COP > 1.
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Hi George,
You again ask me to comment on test results you wrote in the above post. The problem is I can see test results again which are lacking a few simple additions like I indicated in my Reply #90 for your previous test results in your Reply #87.
Putting this otherwise, in fact, you did not include any convincing 'proof' other than text and readers here have no way of checking them unless they perform such test themselves.
Please do not get offended, it is not my intention to offend anyone, just read through my Reply #90 and think it over what simple questions I posed in it back then which did not turn out from the experimental results and you still have not reflected on them, probably never will because back then you attempted again to come along with doing the mathematical operations on the equations and inequalities.
Please understand that it is not me to whom you would need to prove the COP > 1 result with measurements, I am not an 'authority', just a person with a certain scientific background and common sense.
It looks like nobody else is interested in this topic and I consider withdrawing too. I am simply running out of patience towards this thread, it has been enough. I really wish you good luck to be able to design and actually build a practical electric heater which measurably produces a COP > 1 result.
Gyula
Hi Gyula.
--------------
Thank you for your reply.
1) Nobody else is interested in this topic because most people here are not enough qualified like you in order to get the essence of the problem. This is for sure. (Actually I doubt that there is a lack of interest. I am sure that there are certain people who carefully keep an eye on our dialogue without interrupting.)
2) We keep performing experiments. One question related to the experimental approach. Can we use ready table values for electrolytes' conductivities? These values are experimentally proved and verified and can be trusted. What is your opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi Gyula.
-----------------
Yesterday all members of our team gathered together and after a long discussion we reached a decision. We abandon our intention to perform calorimetric experiments. It will take too much time, money and effort and, most important, we do not have at our disposal a high-tech calorimetric laboratory in which to carry out precise tests according to your requirements. Instead let us write down again (for a last time!) our theoretical considerations.
-----------------
1) A standard solid resisitor is connected to a standard DC source. COP of the system is just equal to 1 and is given by
V = I x R <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t <=> COP = 1.
-----------------
2) A standard liquid resistor (a standard electrolyte, which is used in a standard water-splitting electrolysis) is connected to a standard DC source. COP of the water-splitting electrolysis process is bigger than 1 and is given by
(V - v) = (I - i) x R <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t = (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t < ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t) + (Z x (I -i) x t x (LHV)) <=> COP > 1.
-----------------
(Note. Definitions for V, v, I, i, R, t, Z, hydrogen LHV and hydrogen HHV can be found in our previous posts.)
-----------------
3) IT IS EVIDENT that there aren't any theoretical contradictions, incorrectnesses and inconsistensies in the above theoretical considerations. HEREAFTER WE ARE OPEN FOR THEORETICAL DISCUSSIONS ONLY as we need time and money for a further experimental perfection of some of our 10 (already) basic inventions, which have nothing to do with electrolysis.
-----------------
4) As mentioned in our first post the above theoretical considerations are an absolutely free technology/scientific information, which can be used absolutely free by anyone for designing and manufacturing of real heaters based on water-splitting electrolysis. We will be glad if somebody manages to do a good business by building and selling such water-electrolysis-based heaters. And we hope that this successful man/woman/company will contact us and will support our charity initiatives.
-----------------
5) And one small question at last. Do you have some friend/colleague who is an expert in the field of computer simulation of real mechanical systems? (This is related to another topic of ours in this forum which is called "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?".) Such computer simulations can be found for example in the two inks below:
https://www.myphysicslab.com/
https://www.mathworks.com/products/simmechanics.html
------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi George,
Unfortunately, I cannot advise for you anyone competent in computer simulation of mechanical systems.
I respect your team's decision. Hopefully, either this or the other 10 ideas of yours will bring you success and nevertheless some income too.
Good luck in your endeavours.
Gyula
@ George
It seems to me that this entire topic has been blown up, made overly complex.
While I can see the reasonableness in not spending many thousands of dollars upon
a one time usage of HHO generators and other equipment. I do not see any reason for
your not having presented a great deal of experimental results / data, from some much lower
cost experiments (your own). Then seek peer review, later.
Expert or not
Electrical energy input (DC via a watt meter) very simple.
temperature / measurements of electrolyte and liquid volume of electrolyte (just before and after, also insulate it). also very simple.
measure the temperature of outputted gases (HHO and water vapor). Less simple but still very do able.
Remove water vapor / freeze the gas mixture.
measure volume of the removed water / calculate the caloric content it had before it was frozen / add these calories to the calories gained in the electrolyte during electrolysis.
measure the HHO gas volume.... or not
Raise the temperature of the dry HHO to the previous temperature (before freezing)
measure the HHO combustion caloric output.
add the calories gained in the electrolyte during electrolysis to the calories gained by the HHO combustion.
Compare these to the electrical energy input.
Some margin of error statement.
Your not likely to acquire an accidental heat content increase, any where in the process...... unless its during the reheating of the HHO.
Undesired heat losses would NOT contribute to an OU conclusion, but rather would serve to
validate any OU measurement results.
Seems, if not simple, none the less very doable.
floor
To Gyula.
-------------------
Hi Gyula,
Thank you for your reply.
Well, I myself was strongly against stopping performing experiments but the majority of our team insisted on stopping doing all tests. I had to obey our team's majority decision. Nevertheless after some time I will try very carefully to convince the colleagues to start performing experiments again.
And thank you again for your patience and good will.
I will write to you in the nearest future in order to inform you what happens.
Regards,
George
To floor
-------------------
Hi floor,
Thank you for your reply.
------------------
As I wrote already to Gyula I myself was strongly against stopping performing experiments but the majority of our team insisted on stopping doing all tests. I had to obey our team's majority decision. Nevertheless after some time I will try very carefully to convince the colleagues to start performing experiments again.
---------------
About your step-by-step instruction for performing experiments. Well, some steps seem to be really doable and some steps seem to be quite difficult to be done. And in some instruction steps I cannot understand what exactly do you mean. Nevertheless I will consider carefully your last post and will write to you in the nearest future. Because some questions appear already.
----------------
Regards,
George
To Gyua, to floor and to all other guys, who are interested in the topic.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me reproduce part of the last meeting's discussion of our team. One of the colleagues said almost literally the following.
BEGINNING OF THE CITATION
"An obvious paradox exists in the present-day scientific community.
On one hand, all modern physics conceptions are based on various and endless sets of sophisticated, non-understandable and unintelligible equalities, inequalities, formulas, expressions, equations, inequations, etc. And everybody accepts them to be true and nobody wants any experimental proofs for their validity. (And even Nobel prizes are often won for these fantastic mathematically-based theories which have nothing to do with reality.)
On the other hand, we suggest several simple, clear and understandable equalities and inequalities, which simply gather together previously obtained true experimental facts, being considered wrongly in isolation until now. And again some people here want experimental proofs for the validity of facts which have been proving to be true within a period of 200 years.
How's that? Do you understand this? Isn't this a paradox?"
END OF THE CITATION
Well, I will not comment my colleague's opinion. But whatever to say his opinion is logical and reasonable.
Regards,
George
https://overunity.com/12367/the-conversion-of-electrical-energy-to-heat-energy/
@George1,
Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water) :
"Electrolysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis) of water is the decomposition of water (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_splitting) into oxygen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen) and hydrogen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen) gas due to the passage of an electric current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity). The reaction has a standard potential of −1.23 V, meaning it ideally requires a potential difference of 1.23 volts to split water."
Emphasis on: potential difference of 1.23 volts.
Thus, if your electrolysis cell runs at, let's say, 2V and 1A, the power required is obviously 2W. However, the Joule heating is only (2-1.23)V x 1A = 0.77W. The difference of 1.23V x 1A = 1.23W goes into the generation of hydrogen and oxygen.
Fortunately, besides theory there is also a less than 10$ simple setup/experiment that everyone can do at home to check the above. No fancy equipments are needed. If you need help with it, please ask.
I'm really sorry to keep giving you bad news but it's just simple physics and electrochemistry here, not rocket science.
The mistake you did this time was the miss use of Joule heating fundamentals. Here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating). Have a look at Formulas/Direct Current and check with the above.
Best regards.
Hi tiny,
But you are making an obvious mistake. The generated power is equal to 0.77 W and the consumed power is equal to 0.77 W too. Actually "the countervervoltage" (which is due to the electrode potential/overvoltage) plays the role of small battery that is connected in opposite direction to the main DC source, i.e., plus to plus and minus to minus. Imagine that the main DC source has a voltage of + 1,23 V. Then what will be the value of the consumed/generated power? Answer: just equal to zero.
Besides if the voltage of the main DC source is much bigger than 1.23 V, then the hypothetical (and wrong!) effect, in whose validity you try to convince us, is absolutely negligible.
--------------
And it is also evident for me that you have not read carefully our previous posts. Please read carefully our previous posts as well as the text below, which contains the essence of our concept.
=============================================
There are four experimental facts which have been proving to be true within a period of 200 years and whose validity is beyond any doubt. These four experimental facts are as follows.
--------------
1) Experimental fact 1: (V - v) = (I - i) x t. This is the Ohm's law for any electrolyte.
--------------
2) Experimental fact 2: (V - v) x (I - i) x t = (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t. This is the Joule's heat law for any electrolyte.
--------------
3) Experimental fact 3: m = Z x (I - i) x t = mass of the substance, which is generated in the process of electrolysis. This is the first Faraday's law of electrolysis.
--------------
4) Experimental fact 4: hydrogen LHV = 120000000 J/kg.
--------------
The validity of the above four experimental facts is beyond any doubt.
(Note. Definitions for V, v, I, i, R, t, Z, LHV and HHV can be found in our previous posts. Tinu, please read them carefully!)
--------------
What to do further? We have only to gather together the above four experimental facts. We have only to perform a simple sequence of only two simple operations.
--------------
Operation 1. We multiply m by LHV and get the heat A, which is generated by burning/exploding of hydrogen of mass m, that is, A = m x (LHV).
--------------
Operation 2. We simply add A to the right side of the equality in item 2, thus transforming it into inequality, that is,
(V - v) x (I - i) x t = (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t <=> (V - v) x (I - i) x t < ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t) + A
--------------
The last inequality unambiguously shows that the standard water-splitting electrolysis has COP, which is bigger than 1, that is, COP > 1.
--------------
Simple, clear and understandable. Only two simple operations in a row.
--------------
George
Quote from: George1 on May 06, 2019, 04:56:11 AM
Hi tiny,
But you are making an obvious mistake. The generated power is equal to 0.77 W and the consumed power is equal to 0.77 W too. Actually "the countervervoltage" (which is due to the electrode potential/overvoltage) plays the role of small battery that is connected in opposite direction to the main DC source, i.e., plus to plus and minus to minus. Imagine that the main DC source has a voltage of + 1,23 V. Then what will be the value of the consumed/generated power? Answer: just equal to zero.
...
Hi George1,
In case you're talking to me, please note I'm not tiny. For now, just take my word for it.
Other than that, please go do the simple experiment above. Most members here can do it for breakfast and still have some time left. I hope you are able to do it too. If not, many members can help you.
Last, but not least, please stop polluting us with utter nonsense like that right above and elsewhere. A standard liquid resistor is not equivalent with an electrolysis cell! An electrolysis cell involves a standard liquid resistor PLUS the standard potential for dissociation. If you're not able to grasp these very simple theoretical concepts, maybe a 10$/15min experiment may get you out of the state of confusion you're in right now?
Best regards!
Hi tinu,
You are trying to manipulate all of us here in this forum -- you are trying to convince us that black is white. But you are not a skillful manipulator. You have to read still more books related to the art of manipulation. I will not argue with you.
George
Quote from: George1 on May 06, 2019, 05:53:28 AM
Hi tinu,
You are trying to manipulate all of us here in this forum -- you are trying to convince us that black is white. But you are not a skillful manipulator. You have to read still more books related to the art of manipulation. I will not argue with you.
George
Hi George1,
Now you start being rude, don't you think?
I'm purely stating elementary knowledge, backed up by references you can understand (wiki) and by experiments. Some of these experiments I've done by myself more than 30-35years ago as part of the learning process. Electrolysis too. Since then, I've repeated them many times with a twist. Regarding electrolysis in particular, there are several good threads into this forum you might want to study. Novel ideas, interesting approaches but ... no cigar so far. In short, you don't need to reinvent the wheel now for the sake of calling yourself an inventor. Or if you want it so badly as to satisfy your ego or to fulfill a hidden agenda you might have, please do it in a way that does not require propagating blatant untrue statements.
And please stay to the facts, no ad-hominem attacks. Post references and/or experimental results if you have any.
Help people progress in the field if you can, instead of throwing some into dead ends by misleading them. If you cannot help, please refrain yourself, ask questions and keep on learning. This is a public forum available without restriction so I'll not allow any person (you included) to shout worldwide ever so often (almost daily in your case?!) how magnificent his/her idea are when, in fact, they are unfortunately but truly flawed. Ok? And no offense, but you reveal a level of education in physics of an undergraduate student. This is not an insult by any means (I'm also very uneducated in most of the fields except very few) but it's stated for the reason to kindly ask you to show some respect to the experts here and elsewhere as well as to every visitor coming to read us. I have a M.Sc. in physics. I understand you are an enthusiast but what is exactly your level of expertise?
You are welcome to argue with me.
Best regards!
Hi tinu,
First of all please excuse me if I have insulted you in some way. I am really sorry about this.
=================
Ok, let us follow your rules.
------------------------------
Given:
V = 2 Volts
v = - 1.23 Volts
R = 1 Ohm
I = (V - v)/R = (2 - 1.23)/1 = 0.77 Ampere
t = 1 second
Z = 0.00000001044 kg/C
Hydrogen HHV = 142000000 J/kg
Hydrogen LHV = 120000000 J/kg
-----------------------------
inlet energy = (2 Volts) x (0.77 Ampere) x (1 second) = 1.54 Joules
-----------------------------
outlet energy 1 = (0.77 Ampere) x (0.77 Ampere) x (1 Ohm) x (1 second) = 0.5929 Joules
-----------------------------
outlet energy 2 = (0.00000001044 kg/C) x (0.77 Ampere) x (1 second) x (142000000 J/kg) = 1.1415 Joules
-----------------------------
COP = (outet energy 1 + outlet energy 2)/inlet energy = (1.1415 Joules + 0.5929 Joules)/1.54 Joules = 1.1262 <=>
<=> COP = 1.1262 <=> COP > 1.
-----------------------------
In the above solution we use hydrogen's HHV. If we use hydrogen's LHV, then COP will be equal to 1.01, that is, COP = 1.01 <=> COP > 1.
Of course it is aways better to use hydrogen's HHV instead of hydrogen's LHV. We have a choice.
-----------------------------
So you see that COP again is bigger than 1, that is, we have again COP > 1.
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Hi George1,
Apologies accepted.
Now to the subject, I said let's have 2V and 1A . You start there but immediately later you change it to 2V and 0.77A by the improper use of Ohm law. That's not correct. Let's do it right, ok? Here it goes:
Electrolysis require a potential drop of min. 1.23v (practically it's larger, depending on many factors). This is a forward drop of voltage, not a counter emf. It's a forward voltage drop similar (for the purpose of simple understanding only) to the forward drop of about 0.6V on a conducting diode (p-n junction). I repeat: there is no counter voltage in electrolysis!
The proper use of Ohm law and Kirchhoff's voltage law is:
Vps=IpsxR + Ve,
where:
Vps is the voltage applied to the electrolysis cell by the power supply (ps) that can be measured with a voltmeter, in our case Vps=2V
Ips is the current supplied to the electrolysis cell by the power supply (ps) that can be measured with am ammemeter, in our case Ips=1A
Ve=1.23V is the potential difference required for electrolysis to occur.
R is the resistance of the electrolyte (the equivalent resistance of liquid resistor) in a very simplified model.
In the above case, you can use Ohm law and compute R = 0.77 Ohm but this value is of little practical use because this model is over-simplified while a real electrolytic cell involves higher complexity.
Regardless on complexity, in our model we have:
Supplied power is Vps x Ips, as measured by the two multimeters, 2V x 1A = 2W
Meanwhile, Joule power is given by sqr(Ips) x R, in our case sqr(1A) x 0.77Ohm = 0.77W
In the same time, electrolysis requires Ve x Ips which is 1.23V x 1A = 1.23W
Part of the supplied power goes into heat (0.77/2=38.5%) while electrolysis efficiency in this case would be 1.23/2=61.5%. Overall COP=1.
Besides theory and correct use of the laws of electricity, you may also easily perform this simple experiment.
In good quality electrolytic cells, efficiency can go toward 80%, meaning that only about 20% of total energy supplied is lost, mainly as Joule heat. In fact, I saw you did reference a fine paper (http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf) where energy efficiency of electrolysis was measured between 73-84% (page 72).
I'm sorry but there is no overunity here.
Best regards!
Hi tinu,
I am also sorry, but you are again entirely wrong. It seems to me that you are not reading at all any of our posts. Besides in one of your comments for example you claim that A is bigger than B and in the next comment of yours you claim just the opposite -- that A is smaller than B. And similar false claims and logical inconsistensies in all of your comments. Do you do this deliberately?
Please understand and accept the simple fact: there are physical processes which have COP > 1.
I am tired of explaining one and same simple thing thousands of times already.
George
George1, you are wright : physical processes with C. O. P. > 1., but work process meaning
Energy conversion processes with eta > 1
were,are,will be unknown and never achieveable.
When energy has his equivalence to mass : where do you get the mass-surplus ?
The C.O.P. is conventionally only used in closed thermo-dynamic cycle circuits called heat pumps or chiller, whose devices transmit heat from point A to point B. C.O.P <=> 1 , BUT : eta ever < 1
There are also in existance "external input-free pump" heat pumps, using the thermo-syphon principle.
Simple heat collecting devices
From Nernst to Nernst-Planck equitation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst%E2%80%93Planck_equation (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nernst%E2%80%93Planck_equation)
You are not have a battle against us or the peers and their test result review, you are in a battle against physical reality !
"A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER" can have several mWatt up to 10 Watts per square-centimeter surface,temperature from 50°Celsius up to 2200° Celsius :
1,23 Volt ( Nernst equitation) x low to high amperage : electrolyt ( liquid) volume : expansion ( gas,plasma)volume
Which equitations are used by a. Friction b. Cavitation c. Sonolumniscence devices ?
"Free Energy" ( often abused expression) and the definition : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbs_free_energy
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for your reply.
Good analysis, dear colleague. Would you be so polite to give us some time to consider carefully your last post?
I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on May 07, 2019, 06:44:41 AM
Hi tinu,
I am also sorry, but you are again entirely wrong. It seems to me that you are not reading at all any of our posts. Besides in one of your comments for example you claim that A is bigger than B and in the next comment of yours you claim just the opposite -- that A is smaller than B. And similar false claims and logical inconsistensies in all of your comments. Do you do this deliberately?
Please understand and accept the simple fact: there are physical processes which have COP > 1.
I am tired of explaining one and same simple thing thousands of times already.
George
Hi George1,
1. Please pinpoint my mistake now!
2. Please state a false claim and logical inconsistency in any of my comments!
3. As I said "no overunity here", please state where did I say that there are no processes of COP>1!
Please do the above now or immediately delete your post.
Thanks!
Quote from: George1 on April 16, 2019, 10:48:29 AM
Hi again Gyula,
And one more 81-pages research experimental work:
http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf (http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/Documents/MSc_2003/papagiannakis_i.pdf)
Ready experimental results, confirming COP > 1. Why don't we use them?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi George1,
This post is a blatant lie!
The cited paper speaks of efficiency measured between 73-84% (page 72). There is nowhere any mention about COP>1!
Why do you lie, George?
Who gave you the right to come here, lie and insult members?
Again, asking for second time, what exactly is your training and level of expertise?
Quote from: tinu on May 07, 2019, 11:31:07 AM
Hi George1,
This post is a blatant lie!
The cited paper speaks of efficiency measured between 73-84% (page 72). There is nowhere any mention about COP>1!
Why do you lie, George?
Who gave you the right to come here, lie and insult members?
Again, asking for second time, what exactly is your training and level of expertise?
Yes and page 6 : up/ over 90% - in future- and page 20 under 100% theoretical efficiencies !
Somebody here speaks " Hungarian"( not the Monty Python translation) ;) and could ask them
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006038048A1/fr (https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006038048A1/fr) what they mean with
" it's efficiency exceeds extremely "
as to read in their application device description
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WO&NR=2006038048A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=&date=20060413&DB=&locale=# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=WO&NR=2006038048A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=&date=20060413&DB=&locale=#)
I assume, by given text information :
efficiency same or < 98% University lab max
but higher 75% industrial average efficiency ( 2004 standart)
But by high production rate AND HYDROGEN PURITY
@George1
Given that the electrolyte container is well insulated.
1. When we electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen, heat is generated in the water. The temperature of the electrolyte rises.
2. If the electrolyte is well insulated, caloric losses through its container will be minimal.
Those caloric losses / their rate can be measured.
3. The volume of the electrolyte decreases during electrolysis ..
a. because water is transformed into H and O and leaves the electrolyte during the electrolysis.
b. because water vapor leaves the electrolyte during the electrolysis.
4. The H, the O and the water vapor all have a caloric content which they carry away from the electrolyte.
a. Specific calories were generated by the electrolysis process.
b. The transport of those calories from the electrolyte, cools the electrolyte.
c. Those calories are still present, but they are within the water vapor and HHO gasses.
5. What is the temperature of the Water vapor / HHO gas mixture that is produced during electrolysis ?
Answer 1. It has the same temperature as does the electrolyte, at the time of it's escape from the electrolyte.
Answer 2. Its temperature will increase with time / as the temperature of the electrolyte also increases during electrolysis.
6. If the Water vapor / HHO gas mixture is well insulated, caloric losses through its container will be minimal.
Those caloric losses / their rate can be measured.
7. water vapor does not burn.
HHO will burn.
8. Water (water vapor) can be removed / trapped by freezing (passing it through a long cold tube). The HHO
will not the freeze / be trapped.
9. The temperature of the water vapor before its separation from the HHO and the volume of the water (which we determine after
its separation from the HHO) informs us of the waters caloric content upon its production. This caloric content was generated by the electrolysis (allowing for
initial electrolyte temperature) and should be added to the caloric increase of the electrolyte.
10. Before combustion, the temperature of the HHO should be raised to the temperature it had when it was first generated / released from the electrolyte.
best wishes
To tinu.
-------------------------------------
Hi tinu,
You either never read my posts carefully or you never read them at all! And you always distort my words!
1) Firstly, I have explained clearly enough that the 81-pages experimental work contains experimental data which, if properly interpreted, would inevitably
lead to COP > 1. I have never mentioned that the 81-pages experimental work directly claims that COP > 1.
2) Secondly, we admit your superiority in the field of electric engineering. OK, you are right and we are wrong. What to argue about then? Please don't be angry with us and consider the COP > 1 heater as a part of the entertainment industry.
Take it easy and be happy! :D
Regards,
George
To lancaIV
----------------------
About the 81-pages experimental work -- please read my last post to tinu.
----------------------
Here are our answers to your penultimate post.
1) About eta -- you mean eta = Energy conversion efficiency, I guess. Well, this eta is actually an artificially created item, more or less. Of course in some cases its application is extremely suitable and convenient and there is no doubt about this. But in general the eta-based principle as if does not work properly. For example please consider a simple copper wire in an air environment (in your room) through which flows electric current. The wire generates only Joule's heat. The latter is transmitted in two ways -- the wire directly heats the surrounding air and at the same time generates infrared radiation which heats the surrounding objects like table, chairs, walls, carpets, etc. In this case (and in other many cases too) the transmission of energy from the heater to the surrounding environment gives eta = 100 %.
2) Important is the ratio outlet energy/inlet energy and it doesn't matter how would you call it -- COP, efficiency, etc.)
3) About the mass-surplus. Well, there isn't any mass-surplus at all. The quantity of the generated mass strictly obeys the first Faraday's law of electrolysis.
4) About the Nernst–Planck equation. Official scientific community and conventional orthodox scientists of any ranks do their best to avoid discussing a simple obvious fact -- the Einstein's theory of relativity and Max Planck's quantum mechanics CANNOT BE TRUE SUMULTANEOUSLY. Actually, let us directly say this, these two theories are two naive hypotheses, which generate more questions than answers and all of their postulates and mathematical costructions are questionable, doubtful and unreliable. These two hypotheses clearly illustrate the severe impotence of modern orthodox science.
5) And at last one small appeal for help. I see that you are an expert in the field of physics. So would you be so polite to have a look at the other topic of ours which is called "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE"? How to calculate force Fc and deceleration d? And how would the system behave if the blue component's mass is BIGGER THAN/EQUAL TO/SMALLER THAN the black component's mass?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
To Floor.
--------------
Hi Floor,
Thank you for your reply.
1) Please give us some time to consider carefully your last post. What are you actually suggesting -- a logical costruction, leading to some conclusion, or a step-by-step experimental procedure? Please explain, if possible.
2) And one small appeal for help. Would you be so polite to have a look at the other topic of ours which is called "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE"? How to calculate force Fc and deceleration d? And how would the system behave if the blue component's mass is BIGGER THAN/EQUAL TO/SMALLER THAN the black component's mass?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on May 08, 2019, 04:16:06 AM
To tinu.
...
2) Secondly, we admit your superiority in the field of electric engineering. OK, you are right and we are wrong. What to argue about then? Please don't be angry with us and consider the COP > 1 heater as a part of the entertainment industry.
Take it easy and be happy! :D
Regards,
George
Oh George, you are so kind today! I'm deeply touched!
Now that you admit my superiority, I sense the deepest feeling of personal accomplishment like I've never felt in a long time... For that, I'll give you a great tip for free!
You see, in the western world, especially USA but Europe too, there is a great need for cooling. The heating requirements are not extremely high because almost all buildings are very energy efficient and winters are not so cold. Demand for heating will be lower in the future too, and I'm certain you're familiar with global warming and its effects.
So, while heating is not a bad deal, cooling is far, far superior as market value.
On the same time, H2 and O2 are quite cheaply and commonly available, as they are used in many industries, including the welding sector but also the entertainment industry you seem to appreciate.
Consider this: instead of running your electrolyzer for producing H2 and O2, why not running it in reverse? Why not feeding it with H2 and O2 and have it working as an electric generator but, most importantly, as an extremely valuable cooler? A word of caution: not every electrolyzer can work in reverse but still, many advanced models shall work just fine. I'm not sure about COP>1 but maybe your lead researcher will dig into it. Think of it: produce electricity and cooling from cheap industrial H2 and O2 then maybe, if COP>1 use that electricity being produced to run you current electrolyzer in normal mode and maybe closing the loop? That would be fantastic, don't you think?! I mean, just think about: first electrolyzer feeds the second with electricity while the second, in return, feeds the first one with H2 and O2. And, as a bonus, you'll have free heating and cooling too and maybe some excess H2, O2 and electricity, depending on how large COP>1 will be! Well, what do you think?
Speaking of your lead researcher, what's his/her name?
I understand he/she has an invention that is for sale for 10 million dollars! Please invite him/her here to introduce himself/herself and his/her invention.
I'm sure he/ she will be more than welcome!
Regards!
[/font]
[/font]
Hi tinu,
1) Your idea sounds great, but could you be more specific?
2) About our leading researchers. (They are more than one.) Now they are preparing an answer related to your rejection of their COP > 1 concept. And for the present they would not like to be in the public eye.
Regards,
George
Hi George,
1. You have enough info for free, don't you think? Right now I'm on my annual leave and I'm sorry but my holiday is too expensive for expanding beyond that. I think I offered a generous tip already.
2. Oh, but a 10 million dollars invention is already out of anonymity! Multiple leading researchers? What a brilliant strategy! Yet, I'm only interested in the sole author of the invention to be sold. No offense but the rest are of no value to me. I insist you to introduce him/her here so we can have direct and unimpeded dialogue. An username will suffice for now although you should know well that an inventor can't be anonymous, right? Sooner or later (and better sooner!) he/she shall take full credit for the great discovery!
Where are you from George? What country?
Regards!
Hi tinu,
While waiting for our experts to to prepare their sophisticated answer I considered carefully your yesterday posts.
There is something false and incorrect in your calculations.
Please answer the 6 questions below.
=====================
1) Vps = power supply voltage = 2 Volts. Is this correct?
--------------------------------------
2) Ips = current flowing through the electrolyte = 1 Ampere. Is this correct?
--------------------------------------
3) (Vps) x (Ips) = (2 Volts) x (1 Ampere) = 2 Watts = power, generated by the power supply. Is this correct?
--------------------------------------
4) R = 0.77 Ohm = ohmic resistance of the electrolyte. Is this correct?
--------------------------------------
5) Assume that Vps = 1 Volt. What will be in this case the value of Ips, that is, Ips = ? Ips = 0 Ampere?
--------------------------------------
6) Assume that Vps = 1.23 Volts. What will be in this case the value of Ips, that is, Ips = ?
--------------------------------------
Please answer the above 6 questions separately and clearly.
--------------------------------------
Next questions will asked in my next post.
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi tinu,
Where are you, old swindler? ;) Will you answer my 6 questions? Because you have to answer still more questions except these 6 ones.
Regards,
George
Hi George,
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes, R=0.77 Ohm. This value is the equivalent resistance of liquid resistor DURING electrolysis only!
5. Vps=1V. No electrolysis is taking place. All power delivered by the power supply goes into Joule heating of electrolyte. Ips is unknown because R is unknown. In this regime R is not 0.77 Ohm but larger. Consequently, Ips=Vps/R. Surelly, 0<Ips<<1V/0.77Ohm. Ips can, of course, be easily measured.
6. Vps=1.23V. Still in Ohmic regime, while no electrolysis is taking place yet. All power delivered by the power supply goes into Joule heating of electrolyte. Ips is still unknown because R is unknown. Nonetheless, raising Vps further beyond 1.23V will start the electrolysis. This is a transient phenomenon, characterized by a relatively sharp increase in Ips because the equivalent resistance of liquid resistor (R) is dropping significantly due to an increase of ions concentration. However, it might be necessary to increase the voltage sufficiently high, until H2 and O2 will start forming bubbles, degassing out of the electrolyte and ensuring a stable regime for the electrodes. When full electrolysis kicks in, R is lowered to 0.77Ohm and Ips stabilizes at 1A.
Read carefully: I'm not here to answer your questions! Neither one of the members is. Now, having said that, the above small physics lesson is a favor I did for you. I won't do it again because on one hand, like I said, I'm on holiday and my vacation is rare and valuable and, on the other hand, this is basic knowledge and subject to bellow college-level class experiments. I'm well beyond that and you make me waste my time.
So, in conclusion:
(1). Please do your own experiments, publish the results here and then we can talk further, based on your actual data.
(2). Better yet, please bring in your leading scientist for further theoretical and practical discussions.
Again, please answer to the former question of mine:
(3). What is your formal training and expertise in the field?
(4). Where are you from?
We'll be hearing again when you fulfill (1)-(4).
In the meanwhile, please refrain yourself from posting invectives, fantasies and/or physical non-sense/absurdities, ok?
Regards.
Hi tinu,
I am already absolutely clear on the fact that you are (a) either an arrogant and ambitious ignoramus, whose expertise in electric engineering is equal to zero, or (b) an unskillful and clumsy manipulator, who is an agent of the BIG OIL (or other similar organization) and who tries to convince us that black is white. I will not waste my time any more (as well as the time of my team's colleagues) to answer your nonsense posts.
George
Dear George1,I am very sorry but have to deny : I am not an expert in physics, only an user.
I wish you fortune and success
wmbr
OCWL
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for wishing us fortune and success. And thank you for your good will and patience. I will keep you informed what happens.
Regards,
George
Hey George1,
probably you and some team members read this works and results and discuss about it :
http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/ (http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/)
------------------------------------
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=DE&NR=2733719A1&KC=A1&FT=D# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=DE&NR=2733719A1&KC=A1&FT=D#)
Compensation of magnetical ( attraction,repulsion)force
-------------------------------------
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20121011&CC=US&NR=2012256422A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20121011&CC=US&NR=2012256422A1&KC=A1#)
Above [ 0092,0093,0094]. related :
For example : when a nominal 1000 W and 1000 RPM generator by100 RPM only generates 1W,
100 RPM to 1000 RPM : ten times higher velocity ~ thousand times more power
how many Watts consumes a coupled motor to achieve this 100 RPM ?!
A. Continuous DC power motor B. Fractional AC pulse power motor
Hey lancaIV,
Thank you for your reply.
Welcome to our team of inventors-enthusiasts!
Your last post is very, very interesting! Please give us some time to consider it carefully! (Part of your last post's information was as if considered in some previous posts on this topic but I am not sure. I'll check this.)
I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
George
Hey again lancaIV,
And what about the link below?
https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/msg469903/#msg469903
Seems to be interesting and workable?
(Title "HHO as a real UO system", author John.K1, December 31, 2015. I wrote to this man many times, but he did not answer me.)
What do you think? What is your opinion about his suggestion?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
George1,
without to be or wishing to become member of your team :
the John.K1 idea is for me to " huge designed", probably usefull in mountains zones, beginning with 2000 and more meters the basic station and several hundreds or thousands meters higher by tubes the conversion station.
In small :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19760115&CC=DE&NR=2429086A1&KC=A1#
Hi lancaIV,
Yes, an obvious disadvantage of John.K1's idea is that it is a "huge designed". Let us concentrate again then on the "small designed". We started considering already your penultimate post. Very interesting! I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
George
What is invention ?
Invention is design of improvement and new technical standart or utility.
Free design :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2013011125A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20130110&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2013011125A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20130110&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
[0010] water heat function
+
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19920714&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19920714&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
Ohms law is guilty ,4 Watt from 100 Watt guilty , pulse duration= law duration : fractional second !
J/s to J/ fractional second= J/pulse duration or J/signal
Well, all links you have sent to me contain complex and sophisticated machines both as a theoretical conception and as a practical realization. Are there any working prototypes of these machines?
"Sophisticated" !?
10 000 000 US$/Euros patent fees ( lump sum ) ~ 200 000 000 US$/Euros FOB factory selling prices 5% royalty calculation
x factor 2 : standart ware end consumer price
x factor 6,10 : " exclusive" ware end consumer price
As inventor you have investor, producer and endconsumer responsibility !
win : win : win : win ratio
to make all glad , this is a wonder , husiastic or enthusiastic !
Competition : heater, hydrogen generator
f. e. http://www.rexresearch.com/eccles/1eccles.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/eccles/1eccles.htm)
Their technology is/ will be in next "open source".
Many alternatives and concepts :
https://overunity.com/electrolysis-of-h20-and-hydrogen-on-demand-generation/ (https://overunity.com/electrolysis-of-h20-and-hydrogen-on-demand-generation/)
Today to get a patent granted is anymore easy, the disclosure must be new, global new !
And never published :
so beside the WIPO-archiv " patent lawyer" has also to search in the global "Honor-Title" "Dipl.-/Dr./Master "- archives( Promotion,Dissertation,Habilitation) !
The patent office can grant an application, but there is no warranty of validity of this act !
http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/ (http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/)
ENERGY IMPULSE SECRETS
" electron emits photon"
page 12 (35) (36) : physical volume comparison
Is the electron volume part from the photon volume ?
Is the photon the electron his circumspherical heatwave , " Protuberanz" ?
Phonon, without volume? Definition. ! photon/ phonon ratio
Physical lifetime from electron, photon, phonon ? actio/reactio in Fermi-seconds and Nanometers
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon)
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon (https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonon) Ist die elementare Anregung (Quant) eines elastischen Feldes
Enthusiasmus : becoming Quant-izised by something, somebody to max. stage : Ekstase or Delirium
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=5&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19871201&CC=US&NR=4710655A&KC=A#
Physics can hypnotize people with electrodynamic waves/ vibrations/ oscillations !
But also in written/ broadcasted texture can be " hidden dynamic", ' sleeper awake' principle.
Our economy : from 100 trials 1 success and 99 fails
Hi lancaIV,
----------------------------------
1) First of all thank you for your last two posts. They are much detailed and full of interesting information. We will need some time to consider carefully you last two posts.
----------------------------------
2) Actually our two topics "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" and "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" could not be strictly considered as inventions. These two topics only reveal to the public two theoretical and fundamental scientific research works which can be successfully used (a) as a basic principle of operation of an extremely effective electric heater and (b) as a basic principle of operation of an extremely effective reactionless drive and/or energy generator, respectively. Our aim is to attract attention to our team as a generator of good technology ideas and projects. Our next project however can already be considered as an invention. It has an undeniable theoretical scientific foundation and a working prototype, which is practically ready for production on a large industrial scale. And we do not intend to patent it. We intend to sell it as a know-how. Our price is $10,000,000 (ten million dollars.)
-----------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on May 14, 2019, 07:04:57 AM
...
2) Actually our two topics "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" and "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" could not be strictly considered as inventions. These two topics only reveal to the public ...
... your incompetence!
This two topics only reveal your incompetence in physics and they are fundamentally erroneous, nothing more!
I finally agree with you for once! Of course they could not be considered as inventions. lol
Quote from: George1 on May 14, 2019, 07:04:57 AM
...
Our next project however can already be considered as an invention. It has an undeniable theoretical scientific foundation and a working prototype, which is practically ready for production on a large industrial scale. And we do not intend to patent it. We intend to sell it as a know-how. Our price is $10,000,000 (ten million dollars.)
I think your aim is to scam people so please cut the crap.
Nonetheless, if you think you have an invention to sell, please get out and go elsewhere. Here, we share information for free. Can you understand such a simple and yet marvelous concept: "share for free"?
And since there is no one here besides you, start using "I/me/mine", instead of "we/ours". Ok, your majesty? lol
tinu,
You are a pathological hater. You need a doctor. You have a very serious problem. You will be punished by your masters from the BIG OIL.
To lancaIV.
----------------------
These two seem to be interesting.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2013011125A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20130110&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19920714&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#
Need some more time to consider them carefully.
Yes, I know !
https://www.google.com/search?q=heatpad+swine&client=firefox-b-m&prmd=ivns&ei=vfvbXNXqMZnkgweQxa_gCg&start=10&sa=N (https://www.google.com/search?q=heatpad+swine&client=firefox-b-m&prmd=ivns&ei=vfvbXNXqMZnkgweQxa_gCg&start=10&sa=N)
page 2 : " Energy Consumption of heat pads..... "
page 3 : " COMPARISON OF HEAT LAMP... "
different power consume levels for the similar/ as same ambiental condition !
Up to -75% less ( pad/ lamp) or 300% more consume( lamp/ pad) !
Not included differences between heat lamps and differences between heat pads comparison. !
And heat pad temperature controller quality. !
[65 Watt heat pad x 0,6 ( Filip controler) x 0,75 ( CNT savings versus metal conductor) / 175 Watt heat lamp ]
=
https://web.archive.org/web/20160223060648/http://filip-tech.de/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20160223060648/http://filip-tech.de/)
his pads/ IR panels improved efficiency : before 1000 W, all improvements inclusive,after : in average 165 W
for humans,animals and liquids
Leveling the consume-peak down gives us the possibility to use solar cell voltaic heating, in-house photo-voltaic :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Paul+marzahn&IN=&CPC=&IC= (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=Paul+marzahn&IN=&CPC=&IC=)
Low cost electric heat pads : AC
https://m.alibaba.com/showroom/electric-heating-pad.html (https://m.alibaba.com/showroom/electric-heating-pad.html)
as resistor-net :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20041118&CC=WO&NR=2004100349A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20041118&CC=WO&NR=2004100349A1&KC=A1#)
Savings expected, but how much !?
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for your reply.
--------------------------------------
You are always well-informed about the latest and best technology breakthroughs. Congratulations for this ability of yours!
--------------------------------------
I have been considering carefully the Filip Tech GmbH website.
Peter Filip has written in his website that: ".....Our products offer an optimum for humans and animals with up to 50% less power consumption than other heating systems....." But if this is true and if the amount of the generated heat is preserved, then Mr. Filip's devices manifest COP = 200 %. Because if a standard copper wire is connected to a battery and consequently a DC current flows through it, then it generates heat. The electric energy, generated by the battery, entirely transforms into heat, that is, if the battery generates electric energy of 100 J, then the copper wire will generate 100 J of heat. And the COP of this system will be: COP = (100/100) x 100 = 100%.
If however the inlet electric energy is reduced to 50 J and if at the same time the outlet heat remains 100 J, then the COP of this system will 200 %, that is, COP = (100/50) x 100 = 200 %. This is correct, isn't it?
--------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi lancaIV,
1) What is your opinion about COP, which is manifested by Filip Tech GmbH's heaters? COP > 1, isn't it?
2) The same for Prof. Kanarev's devices. His approach to electrolysis is different from ours, but despite of this his machines and conceptions as if clearly show that COP > 1 is perfectly possible.
3) It seems to us that there is an INDIRECT worldwide inventors' pressure and attack against some basic postulates of physics. These basic postulates are true and correct IN GENERAL, of course, but at the same time they as if need some further development and update (as quantum mechanics is a further development and update of Newtonian mechanics for example). Don't you think so?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
1000 W to 270 W to 180-150 W object- + space-heating
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=U1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=202008006432&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en (http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=U1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=202008006432&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en)
Waterheating with infra-red waves
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=45&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20080327&CC=DE&NR=202007016567U1&KC=U1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=45&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20080327&CC=DE&NR=202007016567U1&KC=U1#)
George1, 2x fold efficiency in relation to conventional heaters does not mean C. O. P. : 2 by Physics !
Radiation/Convection/Conduction heat has his dis-/ad-vantages ! Each case his appropriate solution !
To feel physiological well in cold climate our individual body needs only an enclosure ( heat losts insulation) and max. electric 12 Watt heat power,
( in the 90' by thick cable- array 80 Watt, reduced by nanofibers use to 12 W)
the rest goes to relatively uncontroled space and object heating !
Beside ambient temperature the human genetical sensibility related humidity/ temperature/ moving air is not the same ! ( Tests in dry air cryo- climate chambers with thermografical skinreaction comparison)
Writing about C. O. P. is ever "Carnot thermo-dynamic cycle" related, reaching the ideal point : eta=1,
an up to 99% ideal point near device : diode-array
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19941018&CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19941018&CC=US&NR=5356484A&KC=A#)
a quantum- mechanical heat pump
Classical Voltage to quantum eV( ancient erg/ dyn- unit) and thermalaccustic unit : dB = thermal noise
To understand efficiency and C. O. P. I would recommend to study thermo- : Seebeck-/Peltier- elements,
for heating or cooling in use.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fclausmeier.tripod.com%2Fstrahlg.htm
Good explanations, lancaIV! Thank you very much for them.
1) But I was misguided by text, describing Mr. Filip's heaters. Actually it's a matter of a 50% decrease of the consumed energy as only the infrared component of the Joule's heat remains the same.
2) And the other misjudgment related to COP. Yes, I understand this. But actually this is a fault of those who write the related texts. They have to specify what exactly they mean.
3) About Seebeck-/Peltier- elements and effect. Thank you for this recommendation of yours! This is because some years ago together with a friend of mine we worked over a device based on Seebeck-Peltier effect. I will re-fresh my memory with pleasure.
4) Please give us some time to consider carefully the last posts you have sent to us.
Regards,
George
Working with thermal processes :
https://www.khanacademy.org/test-prep/mcat/chemical-processes/thermochemistry/a/endothermic-vs-exothermic-reactions
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for re-freshing my elementary school knowedge. You made me younger for a while! :) Although many things in our educational programs as if have to be re-considered. For example: "When chemical bonds are formed, heat is released, and when chemical bonds are broken, heat is absorbed." Who has ever seen a chemical bond? Or an atom? Or a molecule? These are abstractions, which work well in many practical cases, but at the same time they generate much more questions than answers. (Of course, this is my personal opinion and I woud not like to press anybody to agree with me.)
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi lancaIV,
Professor Kanarev's points of view and approaches are extremely interesting and original. It seems to me that (at least theoretically) some of his water-electrolysis-related research works unambiguously manifest outlet energy/inlet energy > 1. Keep reading.
What is your opinion about Prof. Kanarev's research works?
Regards,
George
Prof. Kanarevs view and experimental results are as same interessant/interestant as the " kids education method" :
peak to average to effective power ratio
15000 W are as same as 144 W but this 144 W are also as same as 1,44 W :
and this values applied give for example in electrolysis a C.O.P. about 3xfold and more
mad linear/dynamic science , pardon : today expressed " fuzzy logic "
How do climate experts calculate ? ;)
Hi lancaIV,
This for the climate experts calculations is well said! :D Congratulations!
So you are sceptic, aren't you? No rational part in his numerous research works at all? (I still have not read all of the Kanarev's research works.) Those, which I have read already however, contain too many sophisticated theoretical models, two many unknowns, too many hypothesys proclaimed as axioms/postulates, etc. So your recommendation is to stop reading as the Kanarev's approach is similar to the weather forecast calculations? :D
Regards,
George
No, George1, it is important to study the different works and experiments and their results from Kanarev !
It is about "dynamic" ! In theory and practise !
And comparison !
given example for a generator :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2012256422A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20121011&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2012256422A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20121011&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
Paragraph 92 related to Paragraph 94 : 1000/100 RPM but 1000/1 Watt power
SIMPLE KIDS THINKING ( Finger more/less calculation) :
when 100 Rotations are the 1/10 part from 1000 R., why I get only 1/1000 output ?
DYNAMICS
Professor Kanarev is trying to give the answer for all electric devices, motor/generator/transformer, and especially for pulse power by PWM apply (modulated signals in time and bandwidth !)
This " dynamic motive power magic" f.e. 1/10~1/1000 he tries to make understandable !
And 15000 W ~ 144 W ~ 1,44 W : this statement is conditionized ! By time and on/off- periods !
(Ab-)using numbers : 1 Wh = 3600 Ws= 3,6 KWs = 3600000 Wms = 3,6 MWms
Endo-/exothermic plays in ambient an important rule, included enthalpy ! I think you know about it. !
Use in simple manner :
http://www.iwilltry.org/b/heat-your-home-with-a-dehumidifier/ (http://www.iwilltry.org/b/heat-your-home-with-a-dehumidifier/) Pseudo- open cycle- C. O. P. ? Lesser humidity in air / lower the total C. O. P.
Humidifier/Nebulizer/Mister/Fogger
Counteract : https://www.google.com/search?q=air+conditioning+mister&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m (https://www.google.com/search?q=air+conditioning+mister&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m)
Also wrong are linear calculations for thermic devices :
Fujitsu as heat pump producer gives in their webpage the example about heat need with 15°C and 20°C amplitudeand explains an hundred percent power consume difference .
In their new experimental construction this company shows that this is not only heat pumps related :https://www.fenixgroup.cz/de (https://www.fenixgroup.cz/de)
So each degree temperature more above 15°C room heating means 20% more power consume. !And not 20°/15° is 33,3% more dividing with 5 degrees = 6,7 % more per °C
Another project from Belarus country:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxLbzvSows8
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxLbzvSows8)
Author's comments:
Quote...2 kW for heating 80 m2 room for a rabbit farm with poor thermal insulation...
The project is commercial, with its seeming simplicity, it contains everything that was acquired by many years of testing and thousands of successful and failed experiments. Therefore, it does not intend to publish the technical details of this device.
1. A very high voltage is applied to the cell.
2. If you reduce the voltage below the starting point of the electrolysis process, then whatever current strength you apply, heating will not be possible.
3. The heat system does not produce any gases, only heat.
4. Shock current can only if you take up the central part of the electrolyzer. In a commercial sample, the electrolyzer will be in a closed case. Everything else, including the radiators are not energized, the device also works in tandem with the RCD, this eliminates the possibility of electric shock.
Hi lancaIV,
Hi Sergh,
1) Please give me some time to cosider carefully your last posts.
2) Last week we were fully occupied with preparing a set of calorimetric experiments related to water-splitting electrolysis and this process took a lot of time. Experimental calorimetry is may be one of the most sophisticated branches of modern science.
I will write to you both in the nearest future.
Regards,
George
And F. Canarev is now alive and well?
It is close to me, and I am such a pig, I never went to him.
Did he take the heat emission of rabbits into account? A pig, for example, with the same mass, heats a room two to three times more than a human.
The surface of the pig's body is comparable to the average heating radiator. At a temperature of about 40 degrees. replaces one radiator. I once suggested using pigs for heating.
Not in Alice in Wonderland, a queen lay a pig under her feet for warmth. :)
George,
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19881019&CC=GB&NR=2203529A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19881019&CC=GB&NR=2203529A&KC=A#)
Small bedroom :assuming 6 sqm (" small") floor area
2,3 meters room hight
Room surface calculation
Wide: 3mtr x 2,3 x2 Length + 2 mtr x 2,3 x 2 + Tect 6 sqm = 29 sqm ( + 6 sqm floor)
assuming : K- value :1,5 W/ qm/ K ( window/door/walls energy losts)
Temperature amplitude : 0°C - 14,5° C = 14,5° degrees K
29 sqm x 1,5 x 14,5 = 630,75 Watt heat
/2: inside walls heat ~ 315 Watt heat
". .... in a small bedroom, 25 Watt may suffice,... "
Heat sources :
Enthalpy( condensation) gains,humans body heat emission, .......
1. The normal temperature in a residential area should be 22 - 24 degrees Celsius. A temperature of 18 degrees is not enough.
2. Heating becomes expensive at outside temperatures of 0 -10 degrees and below.
3. The insulation of real housing is relatively poor. Ventilation is carried out through the window. Lack of ventilation leads to dampness and mold on the walls.
Based on this, I assume that the power needed for heating a room of 12 square meters is 2 kilowatts for late autumn and 4 - 5 kilowatts for winter.
Sergh,
1. NO !
I reed some weeks before about 12°C ambiental in-house temperature in Australia.
In the 70' the average winter temperature in the british houses were belong 15°C.
First minimum limit : 0°C ice breaks sanitation tubes
Second minimum limit : 10-15°C condensation
Health risk : humid air movement and mildew/ mold
By wrong estatal politics I have to agree to your numbers but this means 100% overheating from basic need !
The right body wear for the right hot/cold ambient. !
3 physiologic degrees Kelvin by body heating ~ > 50% space energetic overheating
https://www.google.com/search?q=wristify+bracelet&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m (https://www.google.com/search?q=wristify+bracelet&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m)
human body all-weather nano-fiber enclosure let energy consumption falls to 12 Watt,independant from space area/volume in-/outside house
2."Expensive" is relative : to ultra-low/no heating need
Passive house experience in the 90' in Germany : only space heater = incandescent light bulb and human heat emission
3.And door(s).
Modern solution : Single-room air ventilation with heat recuperation
12 sqm floor area means +/- 45 sqm room surface( without floor) when you mean 40° K heat amplitude (-20 out/+ 20 in)and the room (90' construction standart) has K- value 1,0 ergo this means 1800 caloric units heat !
By infrared heating ( objects radiation) your heat source will consume in average 1800 x 0,37 x 0,6 =400 Watt electric units !
Academical pigs( suino/swine)/ humans body heating research& development worldwide let this numbers reach.
SCHWEINEKOERPER RE-/AGIEREN WIE MENSCHENKOERPER, BIOLOGISCHE IDENTITAET
SCHWEINEORGANE ALS MENSCHENTRANSPLANT, WHY Oeko-Schweine ?!
Does infrared heating affect human health? Has been tested the health effect of infrared heating on the long term?
Sergh, you mean specific nm bandwidth infrared radiation ,near/far !?
The sun radiation is also partial in the IR- spectrum.
IR-radiation is in use as medical therapy instrument.
12 Watt consume " body capsule wear"
http://rexresearch.com/cuinanoagwire/cuinanoag.html (http://rexresearch.com/cuinanoagwire/cuinanoag.html)
"on the long term" has to be seen in decades range, cause also without artificial IR- heating our body
during the evolution changed from one cell ( Amoebe) to multi-cell bodies( human- oid)
and the first changing preview for the next evolution step will be that our human body will loose the hair
Anyway, the measurements are incorrect.
Кроликов долой,и повторить. :) :D
http://biofile.ru/bio/18661.html (http://biofile.ru/bio/18661.html)
In western girls and boys language translated :
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fbiofile.ru%2Fbio%2F18661.html
Hmm ??? ,which measurements are incorrect ?
Could you explain it ?
Quote from: lancaIV on May 27, 2019, 07:40:08 AM
Sergh, you mean specific nm bandwidth infrared radiation ,near/far !?
The sun radiation is also partial in the IR- spectrum.
IR-radiation is in use as medical therapy instrument.
Not certainly in that way. Due to the nature of pure infrared radiation, there are some problems.
QuoteWhat is the harm of infrared radiation to humans? One of the likely adverse effects is drying of the skin surface. The skin surface, facing the IR source, heats up, the moisture from it evaporates, while the subcutaneous layers do not have time to warm up and the body does not react with perspiration. Drying of the skin occurs, sometimes burns. Judging by the reviews of infrared equipment, the effect of "baking" the skin is quite common in infrared saunas. The same effect is typical for infrared heaters in rooms.
The impact of intense infrared radiation on the human body was studied by physicians - physiotherapists, as well as specialists involved in labor protection. In physiotherapy, intensive IR sources have been used for a long time. However, this effect is short-term, strictly regulated. In some industries, for example, in steel shops and glass processing, people are exposed to IR radiation for a long time. Infrared radiation has been recognized as a high hazard factor.
The biochemical effect of exposure to short-wave infrared rays of the protection guide is explained there by a photochemical action, which is manifested when skin is absorbed by skin proteins and enzymatic processes are activated. When the intensity of irradiation of the exposed surface of the body is up to 175 W / m2, the presence of denaturation processes in protein molecules in combination with a violation of the permeability of cell membranes is noted, which can probably be the cause of changes in the membrane potential of blood cells and the appearance of self-antigen properties. Excessive exposure to infrared radiation causes thermal damage to the retina and the lens of the eye, which can lead to the development of cataracts. Obviously, there should be standards for safe infrared radiation.
Our body emitts in the infra-red spectrum , too !
Good/bad ? Mental emotion indication, fever/infection indication,......
Infrared-lamps for (sub-/percutan) skin treatment ( included emulsion/creme/balsam).
We have to differ between under-/over-dose ! Between medical use and simple room heat device !
W/sqcm power emission density and surface temperature !
Infrared- emission dries the walls over the time : wet walls lower the insulation efficiency,"cold radiation"
Quote from: lancaIV on May 27, 2019, 01:38:46 PMOur body emitts in the infra-red spectrum , too !
Our body, unlike heaters, emits a lower frequency range of IR.
Sergh,
each resistor emitts infra-red radiation.
But not each resistor is defined as " infra-red heater".
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=102014018647&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en (http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=102014018647&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en)
[0004] .... and thus corresponds to the electromagnetic radiation of the human substance. ....
1/273 = 1/ https://www.google.com/search?q=kelvin+temperature&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m (https://www.google.com/search?q=kelvin+temperature&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m)
( you like it complicated? Newest research results : < 0° K point reached )
It's a really interesting discussion! Need some time to get the essence of each point of view.
George,
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014161057A1 (https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014161057A1)
EXAMPLE 1
Instead 15x 110 Volts, 60 Watt bulbs
15x 110 Volts 60 Watt IR cnt heat panel
60 Watt IR cnt ~ 200 Watt conventional conductive heater
9V and 0,1 A input and 3000 caloric Watt- equivalent output
This is simple calculated theory/ hypothesis
Works Dr. Paiva device like descripted it will become reality !
Problem ,comercially ?
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=WO&NR=2014161057A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=&date=20141009&DB=&locale=# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=WO&NR=2014161057A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=&date=20141009&DB=&locale=#)
YES, DE : Non-Entry in national Phase
= no DE ergo no EP grant
Probably the need from the patent court decision
Hi lancaIV,
Hi dear friend,
You are always well informed about the latest technology news. Need some time to consider carefully your last post.
Regards,
George
Looking for a buyer of our revolutionary electric technology which is able to increase (twice as a minimum and more than 25 times as a maximum) the distance traveled by a standard electric vehicle on a single charge. (Please look at our last post in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?")
George
https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/ (https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/)
This israelitan inventor shows many ideas with surprising energy prices at the final, if explored !
0,1 US$ per Kg ( 37,58 KWh) Hydrogen means equivalent to 1 barrel ( 1600 KWh) crude oil :
5 US$ per barrel hydrogen costs equivalent
A hydrogen economy will not become more expensive but will for many consumer becomes cheaper !
3 liter (30 KWh) gasoline < 1 Kg hydrogen (37,58 KWh)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=9&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19950330&CC=DE&NR=4332378A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=9&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19950330&CC=DE&NR=4332378A1&KC=A1#)
0,1 US$ per 100 Km drive hydrogen costs
an engine - ready for hydrogen- and claimed to be better in efficiency than fuel cells :
http://www.proepowersystems.com/ (http://www.proepowersystems.com/)
This is interesting! Need some time to consider it carefully.
Hi guys,
1) We are selling a revolutionary electric technology for 10 (ten) million dollars. Our revolutionary electric technology increases (twice as a minimum and more than 25 times as a maximum) the distance traveled by a standard now-existing electric vehicle on a single charge. Our revolutionary electric technology is cheap, safe and reliable and is practically ready for production on a large industrial scale. There is a working prototype/experimental device.
2) In addition to our revolutionary electric technology we reveal ABSOLUTELY FREE the secret of the principle of operation of a revolutionary reactionless drive -- just like Baron Munchasen who lifted himself up by pulling his own hair. Please look at our two basic posts of July 21, 2018, 02:11:37 PM and May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM.
3) The combination of the previous item 1 and item 2 would lead inevitably to an unique reactionless propulsion vehicle -- no transmissions, no propellers, no high-velocity hot gases, no high-temperature resistant materials, no high-pressure resistant materials, no sophisticated design and no sophisticated technology and NO POLLUTION(!), but only a simple electromechanical system, able to cover effectively great distances.
Looking forward to your answer.
George
A small correction/addition to our last post.
The two basic posts of July 21, 2018, 02:11:37 PM and May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM are from another topic of ours, which is named "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?".
Quote from: lancaIV on June 07, 2019, 10:32:21 AM
https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014161057A1 (https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2014161057A1)
...
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=WO&NR=2014161057A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=&date=20141009&DB=&locale=# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=WO&NR=2014161057A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=&date=20141009&DB=&locale=#)
YES, DE : Non-Entry in national Phase
= no DE ergo no EP grant
Probably the need from the patent court decision
@IancaIV
As discussed in the patent, the wavelength of a muon undergoing Compton decay is 5.88324456243 x 10
-23 m. How do you think the authors of the patent created an oscillator at that extremely high frequency using just a PIC?
What does "no DE ergo no EP grant" mean?
https://www.everythingrf.com/rf-calculators/wavelength-to-frequency
https://www.google.com/search?q=muon+decay+frequency&client=firefox-b-m&oq=muon+decay+frequency&gs_l=mobile-heirloom-serp.3...294378.306014.0.307256.31.24.0.3.3.0.1031.11635.0j10j1j5-5j6j2.24.0....0...1c..34.mobile-heirloom-serp..22.9.1511.MWIH-APSsK4 (https://www.google.com/search?q=muon+decay+frequency&client=firefox-b-m&oq=muon+decay+frequency&gs_l=mobile-heirloom-serp.3...294378.306014.0.307256.31.24.0.3.3.0.1031.11635.0j10j1j5-5j6j2.24.0....0...1c..34.mobile-heirloom-serp..22.9.1511.MWIH-APSsK4)
Goto " muon rings and frequency"
muon " normal lifetime" and under " muon factor gamma 30 "aspect, time increase for charge trapping !The inventors wrote about amplyfied muon decay frequency.THz and beyond,Fermi level.
http://www.alternativephysics.org/book/MuonRelativity.htm (http://www.alternativephysics.org/book/MuonRelativity.htm)
SR analog : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPrSPqfVJhA (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPrSPqfVJhA) IT SEEMS THE MOTOR STANDS STILL
DE is the patent office short denomination for Deutschland/ Germany,which makes as country part from theEP : European Patent Contract.If one EP- estate recuse the grant the EP never will become valid or the applicant goes to the patent court andhas to argument by facts against this decision.
Hi guys,
===============
1) We are selling a revolutionary electric technology for 10 (ten) million dollars. Our revolutionary electric technology increases (twice as a minimum and more than 25 times as a maximum) the distance traveled by a standard now-existing electric vehicle on a single charge. Our revolutionary electric technology is cheap, safe and reliable and is practically ready for production on a large industrial scale. There is a working prototype/experimental device.
===============
2) In addition to our revolutionary electric technology we reveal ABSOLUTELY FREE the secret of the principle of operation of a revolutionary reactionless drive -- just like Baron Munchasen who lifted himself up by pulling his own hair. Please look at our two basic posts of July 21, 2018, 02:11:37 PM and May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM from another topic of ours, which is named "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?".
--------------------------
AND VERY IMPORTANT -- THE PRINCIPLE OF OPERATION OF OUR REVOLUTIONARY REACTIONLESS DRIVE MUST BE EVALUATED ONLY BY HIGHLY QUALIFIED EXPERTS IN THEORETICAL AND APPLIED MECHANICS!
===============
3) The combination of the previous item 1 and item 2 would lead inevitably to an unique reactionless propulsion vehicle -- no transmissions, no propellers, no high-velocity hot gases, no high-temperature resistant materials, no high-pressure resistant materials, no sophisticated design and no sophisticated technology and NO POLLUTION(!), but only a simple electromechanical system, able to cover effectively great distances.
===============
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Any comments related to our topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
George
To lancaIV.
-----------------------
Hi lancaIV,
Hi dear colleague,
1) Where did you disappear, my friend? You haven't sent interesting links for a long time.
2) And what is your opinion about the two posts of July 21, 2018, 02:11:37 PM and May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM from the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"? Zigzags imitate resistance, identical to friction, but without generating heat, don't they?
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Hi lancaIV,
Where are you, my friend? You haven't sent interesting posts for a long time.
Regards,
George
Hi guys,
Please have a look at the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?".
------------------------------
1) Here is an abstract from our post from May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM. "It is evident that we can always choose a suitable combination of (a) magnitude of force of friction, (b) length of segments s and (c) number and shape of zigzags, for which Fc = F'c, Fc > 0, F'c > 0, d = d', d > 0 and d' > 0." ANY OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS LAST CLAIM?
------------------------------
2) Because the lack of objections inevitably leads to a generation of a violation/exception of the rule/law of conservation of linear momentum. (I will remind again that any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.)
------------------------------
3) Previous item 2 inevitably leads on its behalf to a possibility of designing and manufacturing of a reactionless drive.
------------------------------
How to explain the things in a simpler and easier manner?
George
Hi guys,
Please have a look at the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?".
------------------------------
1) Here is an abstract from our post from May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM. "It is evident that we can always choose a suitable combination of (a) magnitude of force of friction, (b) length of segments s and (c) number and shape of zigzags, for which Fc = F'c, Fc > 0, F'c > 0, d = d', d > 0 and d' > 0." ANY OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS LAST CLAIM?
------------------------------
2) Because the lack of objections inevitably leads to a generation of a violation/exception of the rule/law of conservation of linear momentum. (I will remind again that any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.)
------------------------------
3) Previous item 2 inevitably leads on its behalf to a possibility of designing and manufacturing of a reactionless drive.
------------------------------
How to explain the things in a simpler and easier manner?
George
Quote from: F6FLT on February 03, 2019, 05:25:59 AM
The second case is false. You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat.
If overunity were so childish, it would have been known for a long time! We'll have to be much smarter.
@George1
I am curious as to where the energy of the oxidation-reduction potentials goes
to and in what form it then exists as ?
I never got around to asking FLT t6FL that question.
And then returning to your actual topic....
An industrial scale electrolysis / hydrogen gas generator could be located at the bottom of a
mountain. Simply put.
outputs
!. Resistive electric heating
2. Lift from the hydrogen rising
3. burning the hydrogen, heat (at the top of the mountain).
4. falling hot water.
floor
Hi Floor,
Hi dear friend,
Thank you for your reply. Recently I was fully occupied with some business not related to technologies and that's why I didn't write in the forum.
Your idea is wonderful and amazing. Please give me some time to consider it carefully.
I will write to you in the nearest future.
Best regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on July 26, 2019, 08:12:25 AM
Hi Floor,
Hi dear friend,
Thank you for your reply. Recently I was fully occupied with some business not related to technologies and that's why I didn't write in the forum.
Your idea is wonderful and amazing. Please give me some time to consider it carefully.
I will write to you in the nearest future.
Best regards,
George
1. Please don't refer to me as "dear friend" or my friend and so on. Its way too familiar (in my culture), and comes off as kind of creepy / insincere. I do realize that in many cultures, that manner of speech is not only common, but also quite acceptable.
2. As I previously stated, that's not my own idea. It was from some other user here at the forum.
floor
To Floor
---------------
1. It's ok -- I will follow the rules of your culture.
2. Anyway the idea is very good and perfectly possible to be realized in practice. Varying with the height of the mountain you can practically increase efficiency as much as you want. Don't you think so?
Looking forward to your answer.
George
To Floor.
-----------------
Any approximate calculations for the mountain's height and the related (a) rate of production of hydrogen and (b) inlet electric energy (voltage, current, time)? Could we replace the mountain with a high enough metal frame tower for example?
To all members of this forum's branch.
-------------------------------
1) Please have a look at the last post of ours (the last George's post a few minutes ago) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
2) An additional bonus is our concept related to the recent topic A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1. We will not argue whether any standard hydrogen generator has efficiency bigger than 1 or not. If somebody manages to make money by using this idea, then it's OK. With one recommendation only -- if you make money, then please do not forget about charity. Please do not forget those who have no shelter and who have nothing to eat.
George
Please have a look at our last post and read the text below.
-----------------------
Here is an abstract from our post from May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM. "It is evident that we can always choose a suitable combination of (a) magnitude of force of friction, (b) length of segments s and (c) number and shape of zigzags, for which Fc = F'c, Fc > 0, F'c > 0, d = d', d > 0 and d' > 0." (Experimentally proved) ANY OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS LAST CLAIM?
-----------------------
Many people here are simply afraid of truth. A very sad fact!
Please have a look at our last post in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
------------------
Here is an abstract from our post from May 16, 2019, 09:35:12 AM. "It is evident that we can always choose a suitable combination of (a) magnitude of force of friction, (b) length of segments s and (c) number and shape of zigzags, for which Fc = F'c, Fc > 0, F'c > 0, d = d', d > 0 and d' > 0." (Experimentally proved) ANY OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS LAST CLAIM?
-----------------------
No objections?
Still no objections? Shall we write a new textbook of physics?
We need (1) brave collaborators/partners of non-standard and original way of thinking and (2) 10 million dollars for further perfection of our next inventions as performing of precise, exact and high-quality scientific experiments is an EXPENSIVE business.
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Deep silence again? :)
STILL NO OBJECTIONS WITHIN A PERIOD OF MORE THAN ONE MONTH?
It is a matter of (1) a perpetual motion machine and (2) a reactionless drive simultaneously, isn't it? Where are the Nobel prize committee representatives? :)
Any candidates for buying the secret of our electric technology and/or for collaboration with us? (Our team welcomes new members of non-standard and original way of thinking.)
George1
Deep silence second month and still no objections? This unambiguously shows that it is really a matter of a serious technology breakthrough! And because of this the price of our electric technology has been increased. Our electric technology costs already 20 million dollars. (Please don't worry -- we are not greedy. The greater part of the money will be used for charity.)
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Please look at our last post (11:30:41 AM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
Please look at our last post (09:37:49 AM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
Please look at our last post (12:19:51 PM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
Please look at our last post (01:30:31 PM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
Please look at our last post (02:40:14 PM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
Please look at our last post (02:51:27 PM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
Not simple, but.. :-\
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StringhamRlowmassmhz.pdf
"Bublegate"
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/BubblegateKeyMilestones.shtml (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/bubblegate/BubblegateKeyMilestones.shtml)
Quote2005 UCLA scuttles DARPA-sponsored replication attempt of Taleyarkhan's bubble fusion experiment by deliberately adding noncondensable gases to the experiment, which kills bubble fusion result.
Hi Sergh,
Thanks a lot for the last interesting links you have posted here. Please give us some time to consider them carefully.
Furthermore please look at our last post (02:33:56 PM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?". Do you know some expert in theoretical and applied mechanics?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
This author claims to have created a heater with an over effect .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHorTh4TIuE
The technology he sells, but here, going clubbing, buy: https://t.me/obogrevayka
PS: From my side, it's not advertising. Just for information.
Quote from: George1 on October 19, 2019, 08:39:34 AM
Hi Sergh,
Thanks a lot for the last interesting links you have posted here. Please give us some time to consider them carefully.
Furthermore please look at our last post (02:33:56 PM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?". Do you know some expert in theoretical and applied mechanics?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Greetings, George!
Hmm .. I am pessimistic to such principles.
I think that some prerequisites are needed to search for free energy. The main condition is the lack of knowledge of any effects or their combinations.
Sorry, but it seems to me that macro mechanics has long been well studied.
Best regards,
Sergh
Hi Sergh,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) Well, on one hand you are absolutely right -- yes, it is true that macro mechanics has long been well studied. On the other hand however we have an experimentally proved principle of operation of a reactionless drive! And theory and experiment coincide in a perfect manner! But the evaluator of both theoretical and experimental results must be a highly qualified expert in theoretical and applied mechanics.
2) It is obvious that no member of this forum is an expert in theoretical and applied mechanics. So please help -- if you have some friend, who is a highly qualified expert in theoretical and applied mechanics, then please ask him to consider carefully the zigzag mechanical conception.
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Please look at our last post (09:40:07 AM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
Please look at our last post (02:49:54 PM) in the topic "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?"
I love your enthusiasm George
Let us expand upon this a little.
The 'fuel' generated as a by-produce of electric heat
can be used to perform work, or generate more heat
As long as the water trickles back into the electrolyte
To keep the 'resistance' value relatively constant
Now let us also consider the electrolyte under pressure.
The water-to-gas phase of the molecules and atoms
has a coefficient of expansion, which can then be used
to create hydraulic force, and operate a mechanical heater
or perform other work
Hi smOky2,
Thanks a lot again for praising of my enthusiasm, which is by the way a characteristic feature of any member our team!
As far as I could understand you develop further the concept related to the hydrogen generating heater. Sounds interesting! Would you be polite to be more specific?
We are ready for cooperation.
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Quite simply put, the phase change from liquid to gas changes the pressure.
If the electrolyzer is sealed, that pressure quickly builds up.
It can then be used to operate a hydraulic system of your design.
This energy is generally wasted or gone unnoticed.
Hi smOky2,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Your idea is really original and very, very interesting! Yes, you are absolutely right that the pressure of the released hydrogen (and may be oxygen?) is able to generate energy by using some kind of hydraulic construction. Any suggestions for how to design a simple experimental laboratory system?
Welcome in our team!
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Well yes. Fill the ladles with ROSH with this gas. :)
To kolbacict
-------------------
Is this a joke :) or you have some constructive suggestion? What is ROSH?
https://overunity.com/15773/gaia-rosch-aukw-auftriebskraftwerk-kpp-why-it-does-not-work/
Hi. no a joke
It will definitely work with gas from electrolysis, but it will be ineffective.
Hi, it will take some time to consider the things carefully. You claim that it is ineffective. Why do you think so?
in comparison with the compressor and compressed air, the volume of NGOs is orders of magnitude smaller.but it can be burned after lifting our bucket up. And return the energy spent by the electrolyzer. Unlike air.
I think you are talking about the below which has been posted on this forum a number of times but not yet built to my knowledge.
I looked into this years ago but for me the scale was too big to get into.
https://overunity.com/8047/buoyancy-cycle-mg-where-the-h-is-free/msg201083/#msg201083
There are a few drawings and discussion at the above link.
GSM
https://overunity.com/8047/buoyancy-cycle-mg-where-the-h-is-free/dlattach/attach/37748/image//
Yes, about that I mean.
And what conclusion have you come to that topic?
Have OU ?
To kolbacict and gsmsslsb.
-------------------------------
Hi guys,
Thank you for your replies. Please give me some time to consider carefully the links you have sent.
I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
George1
To smOky2.
--------------------------
Hi smOky2,
Where did you disappear my friend?Any suggestions for how to design a simple experimental laboratory system related to your idea?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Two sealed chambers connected by a hydraulic cylinder with a long stroke.
In one side: the electrolysis chamber builds up pressure as it generates gas.
On side 2, the piston compresses air, to be used as an energy storage medium.
Both chambers will maintain equal pressure.
If the piston is held in place, chamber 1 can be evacuated of the fuel gas,
to be used as an energy storage medium.
The compressed air can be stored in another container, chamber 2 allowed to return to 1ATM
and the piston returned to the equilibrium position.
For the cycle to begin again.
At the end of each cycle, you have discrete quantities of stored energy.
Which can be measured and compared to the input.
The fuel cell equation for electrolysis and reversal:
Already accounts for 100% of the electricity.
The energy stored in the pressure chamber is in excess of "Unity", by default.
Hi smOky2,
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, this design seems to be perfectly workable. Some calculations related to (1) the length of the stroke, (2) the sealed chambers dimensions and form and (3) the generation of hydrogen (and may be oxygen?) per unit of time? This would be an interesting three-components correlation.
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
I am sending again our post of March 26, 2019, 10:39:21 AM.
"Please have a look at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
The above solved problem has a potential which can be developed further. And here it is.
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.
Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
-----------------------------
Therefore the text above unambiguously shows that it is a matter of exact experimental data which is in perfect accordance with theory. Because I cannot imagine that three highly qualified experts in physics (yet strongly separated by time, space and nationality) would have made one and same mistake three times in a row. This is impossible!"
-----------------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above?
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your answers.
Regards,
George
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text of our previous post?
1. If free energy is obtained with some types of electrolysis:
- it can be assumed that certain chemicals in the electrolyte can initiate the breaking of chemical bonds. There may be some aggressive elements that are in a chemically neutral compound. During electrolysis, neutrality is violated, and due to this, "zero point energy" is captured. Maybe it's not sulfuric acid, maybe there was something else, as an impurity in the water from a conventional water supply system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleophile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleophile)
2. If not.. At a current of 7.9 amperes and a voltage of 3.9 volts on the cell, strong electrolysis probably occurred. Probably the current could change over time. It was necessary to integrate the results over time. When using conventional U, I or Power meters, there may be a large measurement error occured.
http://www.designer-iii.com/cco/RMS.pdf (http://www.designer-iii.com/cco/RMS.pdf)
In Soviet times, obtaining efficiency> 100% was publicly ridiculed and was considered inexperience and experimental errors.
In principle, as elsewhere in the World. Remember what happened with Fleischmann - Pons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fleischmann
Therefore, no real scientist will write in an explicit form about obtaining an efficiency> 100%, because he will be afraid that his colleagues will laugh at him and consider him a marginal.
(.....deep sigh)
I am not certain what your propaganda is trying to promote.
Are you selling books? Pimping out your favorite scientist?
What is the point of all of this?
Never mind
My point is simple.
How much Energy is required to bond a sulphur quadroxide to
the hydrogen molecule (H2) ?
Answer THAT, and we can talk about your "35% extra C.O.P."
To Sergh.
-------------------------
Hi Sergh,
Thank you for your reply.
----------------------------
(Here is the beginning of your last post text.)
1. If free energy is obtained with some types of electrolysis:
- it can be assumed that certain chemicals in the electrolyte can initiate the breaking of chemical bonds. There may be some aggressive elements that are in a chemically neutral compound. During electrolysis, neutrality is violated, and due to this, "zero point energy" is captured. Maybe it's not sulfuric acid, maybe there was something else, as an impurity in the water from a conventional water supply system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrophile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleophile
2. If not.. At a current of 7.9 amperes and a voltage of 3.9 volts on the cell, strong electrolysis probably occurred. Probably the current could change over time. It was necessary to integrate the results over time. When using conventional U, I or Power meters, there may be a large measurement error occured.
http://www.designer-iii.com/cco/RMS.pdf
In Soviet times, obtaining efficiency> 100% was publicly ridiculed and was considered inexperience and experimental errors.
In principle, as elsewhere in the World. Remember what happened with Fleischmann - Pons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fleischmann
Therefore, no real scientist will write in an explicit form about obtaining an efficiency> 100%, because he will be afraid that his colleagues will laugh at him and consider him a marginal.
(Here is the end of your last post text.)
------------------------------
YOU ARE NOT READING CAREFULLY MY POSTS! PLEASE READ VERY CAREFULLY AGAIN WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN IN MY LAST POST!
The traditional scientists as shown in our last post are giving only a standard water electrolysis process problem. AND OUR TEAM DEVELOPED IT FURTHER AND DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT STANDARD WATER ELECTROLYSIS PROCESS THEORETICALLY HAS EFFICIENCY/C.O.P. BIGGER THAN 1. That's all!
Looking forward to your answer.
George
To Sergh.
Please read carefully again our post containing the problem. We have described how to keep a constant neutrality.
Looking forward to your answer.
George
To smOky2.
----------------------------
No, I am not selling books! YOU ARE NOT READING CAREFULLY MY POSTS! I am only citing a standard problem which can be found in two different textbooks. Our team developed further this standard problem and draw the conclusion that standard water electrolysis theoretically has efficiency/C.O.P. bigger than 1. Please also read CAREFULLY my answers to Sergh.
Looking forward to your answer.
George
QuoteOur team developed further this standard problem and draw the conclusion that standard water electrolysis theoretically has efficiency/C.O.P. bigger than 1.
Didn't Stanley Meyer do this a little earlier?
p.s.
Quotelooking forward to your answer
tell him,waiting for an answer, like a nightingale of summer. :)
Hi kolbacict,
I am not familiar with the details related to Stanley Meyer's adventure. I know only for sure that he invented a water electrolysis car motor. And we invented a water electrolysis heater.
Looking forward to your answer. (Appreciating your humour! :))
George
Quote from: George1 on December 14, 2019, 02:49:59 AM
To smOky2.
----------------------------
No, I am not selling books! YOU ARE NOT READING CAREFULLY MY POSTS! I am only citing a standard problem which can be found in two different textbooks. Our team developed further this standard problem and draw the conclusion that standard water electrolysis theoretically has efficiency/C.O.P. bigger than 1. Please also read CAREFULLY my answers to Sergh.
Looking forward to your answer.
George
H + H2 + O + O2 burns at 10,000 degrees
And over time the total energy far exceeds what we use to create
The reaction.
Important: this is NOT a stoichiometric mixture!!!
Over unity in this subject was noted by Bulgarian Physicist
Yull Brown, and disputed by the top scientists in the field.
Brown's Gas will NOT react in a fuel cell with 100% efficiency.
It's a combustible fuel.
It's called "common ducted".
In their ionic state, the molecules bond together to form H2 and O2
This energy is retained like a hydrocarbon
When combusted you gain the H H O reaction
As well as the H2 + O, and added heat from extra O2
it's technically not "overunity" but it puts out more energy than we ourselves put in.
So in that sense, the two are indistinguishable.
Hi smOky2,
All you have written is correct but we are talking about different things. Please read carefully again my last post!
PLEASE DO NOT FEAR THE TRUTH!
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections?
Quote from: George1 on December 17, 2019, 04:37:23 AM
PLEASE DO NOT FEAR THE TRUTH!
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections?
Theoretical objection? No.
My personal theory is pretty close to yours, but with an efficient process
We don't meet any acid-tricks
This is the point I am trying to deliver to you.
My objection is Physical: the core of Physics.
Acid = energy
Base = potential to change energy
If you add an acid to a process, you are adding energy.
It required energy to make that acid.
Acid is a battery waiting for electrodes.
Mother Nature makes these with her Fruit.
Base is basic, all elements were there in the beginning
Base is your " ground".
Acid is your " +"
Base can help split H like acids too, because bases are not our ground state.
We need energy to make bases too.
H=1
A base of 0 is the same as an acid of 2
They are both +/- 1 from our H
H is +1 from our ground state!
That is our f.e.
Irrespective of Acid or Base!
Leave them alone,
Use only pure H2O
Hi smOky2,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
1) You have not theoretical objections? That's good! Cogratulations! At last one clever and brave person in this forum who does not fear the truth!
2) About acid and base. Yes, you are absolutely right, that acid and base need energy to be prepared. But this energy (let us call it E1) is much smaller than the total heat (let us call it E2) generated by any standard electrolyzer, that is, E2 > E1. (E2 is the sum of the joule's heat and the heat generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen in the process of electroysis.)
Secondly, if you keep cooling down the electrolyzer regularly, then the sulphuric acid volume (let us assume that the considered electrolyzer uses sulphuric acid) remains practically the same. The sulphuric acid practically does not evaporate. And from here there is practically no necesity for additional pouring of sulphuric acid. You have to add only water.
And thirdly, there are electrolytes like sea water (and many others), which are able to generate hydrogen by the method of electrolysis, and which does not need (specially generated) energy for their production. They can be found freely and easily in nature.
3) About "Irrespective of Acid and Base!". Sounds interesting! Some more details? Can we use a standard electrolyzer or we have to design another electroyzer construction?
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Deep silence again? :)
WHY DO YOU FEAR THE TRUTH? :o
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections?
George
Still no objections?
I am sending again our post of March 26, 2019, 10:39:21 AM.
"Please have a look at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
The above solved problem has a potential which can be developed further. And here it is.
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.
Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
-----------------------------
Therefore the text above unambiguously shows that it is a matter of exact experimental data which is in perfect accordance with theory. Because I cannot imagine that three highly qualified experts in physics (yet strongly separated by time, space and nationality) would have made one and same mistake three times in a row. This is impossible!"
-----------------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above?
YES OR NO?
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your answers.
Regards,
George
Deep silence again? Obviously no objections?
did such an experiment. Three phases of 230v were connected to the three plates.Alternating current, no diodes. But gas is coming, though not enough.My thoughts are that in the case of three phases, there is unidirectional rotation, as in an electric motor.Such an impromptu direct current.
George,
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19821029&CC=FR&NR=2504768A2&KC=A2# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19821029&CC=FR&NR=2504768A2&KC=A2#)
1/2 nominal voltage ~ 1/3 power consume
15 Watt nominal ~ 5 Watt real consume per bulb + instead 4,3 calories/hour 4,9 calories/hour heat emission
a little gain
Improveable ? Working with voltage conversion :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20160512&CC=WO&NR=2016070292A2&KC=A2# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20160512&CC=WO&NR=2016070292A2&KC=A2#)
Behind each consumed Wh electricity is invested " primary energy", this is the base number for a total OU or UU dynamic cycle efficiency !
In Germany : 1 KWh EE ~ 1,8 KWh PE ergo 180% thermodynamic efficiency need to reach Unity
Electrical gains, f. e. by power factor correction,does not mean linear physical gains :
comparison here before/after electrical input and pump power or lamp output
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=TW&NR=200627764A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=20060801&DB=EPODOC&locale=de_EP#
The electrolyzer transformer efficiency, water( or other electrolyt with/-out salts ) temperature + flow and pressure, these are all specific functions whose change efficiency numbers :
Transformer specific changes :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=de_EP&FT=D&date=20070716&CC=TW&NR=200727310A&KC=A#
George
Why are you seeking an objection?
And what is it that you wish to be objected against?
Objections to the amount of Hydrogen generated?
Objections to the electrical portion of the energy input?
Objections to the pretense under which it is presented?
Objections to the choice of acidic electrolyte?
Or are you explicitly seeking an explanation of the total energies
of the electrolysis reaction PH curve, with comprehensive data collected
for every known acid or base?
Perhaps with side by side experimental analysis of photolysis, sonic disintegration,
thermal decomposition, and magnetolysis under under comparable PH conditions?
How much time do you have to learn this field of research?
And if it were presented to you, would you even want to learn it?
————————————————————————————————————-
I don't have the patience to be your teacher. So to the above you are left
on your own...
But if you want the short answer, by dissolving the acid in water you are
forming hydronium and Hydrogen sulfide.
Released during electrolysis is Hydrogen, oxygen, and sulphur dioxide gas
Depleting the electrolyte which is pretty heavy given the low resistance per
electrode spacing in the book.
(By heavy I mean a very saturated aqueous solution)
As the electrolyte is depleted resistance increases, this is partially countered
by a decreasing volume of water. Circuit current is closely monitored, to keep
resistance constant throughout the experiment. Water and electrolyte must be
continuously added to sustain the reaction.
Other acids can be used, which are safer, more stable,
and have a lower decomposition rate.
If an organic acid is used, electrolyte cost becomes negligible.
Comparable Hydrogen production decreases because it is not as
large % of the decomposition byproducts.
But the reaction can be sustained for longer time without adding more acid.
HCL + salt can exceed production rates of H2SO4 with the cost of a faster
depleting electrolyte and a more dangerous chlorine gas byproduct.
The energy used in the formation of the acid and its compounds during the
reaction are easily calculated and play a major part in the breaking of ionic bonds.
depending on the temperature and particular conditions of electrolysis, recombination
energies may also need to be accounted for.
As new compounds are often formed during decomposition.
This also affects the stoichiometric balance of H2 : O.
Which will then require additional Oxygen input to reclaim the Hydrogen energy.
When comparing Hydrogen energy efficiency, there are apples, oranges, and bananas.
1) electrochemical energy: electrolysis : fuel cell recombination
2) electroreactive energy: electrolysis : using reactants in subsequent chemical reactions
3) thermochemical energy: electrolysis : heat of combustion
In the first scenario we compare apples to apples...
In the second we are using reactivity to save energy in another process.
In the 3rd, we are using the intense internal heat caused by recombination
and this 3rd scenario is mathematically advantageous.
In an ICE, there are problems with the increasing temperatures.
Making the implementation problematic.
However, in another Carnot cycle, similar to a steam cycle or sterling type
even at 50%, the thermal energy exceeds the electrical energy consumed.
I am not in a position to challenge the BTU equation, as my argument would
simultaneously negate the validity of every other constant I chose to use to
mathematically prove my theory.
But I believe what we consider "heat" is a local condition.
meaning one Kelvin here may not be 1 Kelvin elsewhere in the universe.
What we measure in "BTU" is a change in heat, from our perspective.
and the heat generated during combustion is based on the universal condition
not our local temperature measurement.
Resulting in a variance in our value of "energy".
This is further troubled by our choice of initial pressure before the combustion
event. Which greatly affects the temperature reached at the peak of the explosion.
Also, it is technically not an explosion, but an implosion.
The explosion we experience is the intense emission of heat in the form of a flamelike
plasma water vapor, that occurs moments after the implosion.
It is essentially "ionic-fusion".
Hi everyone,
Please have a look again at our post of January 04, 2020, 09:12:45 AM.
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against (1) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Prof. Srivastava's basic problem) and against (2) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Russian professors' basic problem)? YES OR NO?
Deep silence again? ;)
I will repeat again the question of my previous post. Do you accept the theoretically proved simple fact that (1) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Prof. Srivastava's version of the basic problem) and that (2) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Russian professors' version of basic problem)? YES OR NO?
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Deep silence again? And still no answer within a period of two weeks?
1) I will repeat again the question of my previous post. Do you accept the theoretically proved simple fact that (1) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Prof. Srivastava's version of the basic problem) and that (2) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Russian professors' version of basic problem)? Yes or no?
2) In one word, it is obvious that any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer can be considered as a heater, which has efficiency (COP) greater than 1. Do you accept this simple fact? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your answers.
George
Take this
https://m.phys.org/news/2014-01-nanoscale-standard-efficiency-limit.html
and combine with this
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/nanoscale-heat-transfer-100-times-stronger-than-previously-thought/
and you will find the answer. !
Hi lanca IV,
Thank your reply.
Well, we are talking again about different things.
1) The first link of your last post is about a nanoscale heat engine which exceeds standard efficiency limit. Ok, this only confirms the fact that efficiency bigger than 1 is perfectly possible. At the same time however this nanoscale heat engine has an entirely different principle of operation and for the present is practically an unconfirmed hypothesis. THE GERMAN SCIENTISTS NOWHERE DECLARE CLEARLY AND UNAMBIGUOUSLY LIKE US THAT ANY STANDARD HYDROGEN-GENERATING ELECTROLYZER CAN BE CONSIDERED AS AN ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1!
2) The second link of your last post is about a nanoscale heat transfer 100 times stronger than previously thought. Well, I will not argue about this. May be true, may be not. But the article considers HEAT TRANSFER and we are talking about HEAT GENERATION. These are obviously two entirely different things.
----------------------------
So let us focus again on the target.
----------------------------
3) I will repeat again the question of my last post. Do you accept the theoretically proved simple fact that (1) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Prof. Srivastava's version of the basic problem) and that (2) COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1 (this is our further development of Russian professors' version of basic problem)? Yes or no?
4) In one word, it is obvious that any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer can be considered as a heater, which has efficiency (COP) greater than 1. Do you accept this simple fact? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your PERSONAL answers.
George
Yes,it is acceptable ! Personally and by common science !
Electrolyzing is as cracking process also heat generating !
Sincerely
OCWL
poste scriptum : the global science is not in search for C.O.P. greater 1 hydrolysiss processes,these are existent,but mostly based by expensive elements and/or rare earth/Lanthaniden or by expensive equipment,to reach the point : high C.O.P. - ON DEMAND- hydrogen output production by lowest/competitive to alternatives costs !
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for your reply.
1) Oh, I am EXTREMELY pleasantly surprised that at last you personally accept the simple fact that any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer is actually an electric heater which has efficiency bigger than 1. You are a brave person! Congratulations!
2) But you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG that the mentioned in the above item 1 simple fact is accepted by the common science! ON THE CONTRARY, IT IS SEVERELY DENIED! Can you show us some publication, article, any written text, you tube clip, etc., which unambiguously and directly tells us that any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer is actually an electric heater which has efficiency bigger than 1?
3) In your last post you wrote:"... but mostly based by expensive elements and/or rare earth/Lanthaniden or by expensive equipment...". But this is not true! I would absolutely not agree with this! Hydrogen-generating electrolysis is in general one of the most cheap industrial processes! For example sea water hydrogen-generating electrolysis is extremely simple and cheap! (Not to mention and enumerate other methods of simple and cheap hydrogen-generating electrolysis.)
Looking forward to your answer. (Especially your answer related to the above item 2.)
George
To 3) cheap " a.grey b.blue c.green" hydrogen production is something to defined :
you mean costs fob source or costs for user/consumer :
new canadian startup Proton Technologies "Hygenic Earth Energy" project costs estimation : 0,1-0,5 US$/ Kg
Solarthermic hydrolysis in the arabian Peninsula for 1,5 -0,8 US$/Kg
judbarovski.livejournal.com CO2-emission free hydrogen 0,5 US$/Kg
To compare with crude oil : 1 barrel ~ 1600 KWh ~ 42,6 Kg hydrogen
Production process costs about 0,5 US$/Kg means simi!ar costs like actual shale gas market price !
January 2020 1 MMBTU shale gas : 2 US$
1 barrel crude oil ~ 5,46 MMBTU shale gas ~ 11 US$ barrel- equivalent
Shale gas prices actually without "carbon credit" CO2-certification costs are equivalent with 0,25 US$/Kg hydrogen production costs !
When we treat shale gas like natural gas - related CO2 emission - per MMBTU and
calculate by E.U. "carbon credit"- taxation program
for shale gas we have with 25 Euros/tonCO2 certifcation costs and 55 Kg CO2 emission per MMBTU an environmemtal related tax price increase about 1,375 Euros per MMBTU
or 7,5 Euros (~ 8,25 US$) CO2-tax per barrel -equivalent shale gas !
Conclusion :
19,25 US$/ barrel-equivalent shale gas included CO2-tax is the target of " cheap green hydrogen" !
~ 45 US$cents/Kg green hydrogen comercial market price
As energy-user it will be easier to generate electricity -on demand-with a generator which delivers 1 KWh electricity ≤ 1,5 US$cents ~ 24 US$/ barrel-equivalent electricity ( CO2-tax free )
To store hydrogen is costly ! And the handling with this gas dangerous !Hydrogen as fuel emitts vapor : the greenhouse gas NR 1 in the GHG-ranking !
To 1) and 2) a technical C.O.P. higher 1 is nothing special, but it is not a physical C.O.P. and the physical transformation process efficiency is smaller-same 1=100 per centum
C.O.P. ,efficiency ? : solarlight + titanoxid + water : physical ? chemical ? technical ?
A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER
Or
Pulse energy generator system
WO2018032008 Robert Burgener,Troy Atkin
C.O.P. : ? [ 0056/0057/0058/0059 : 2,0 + 2,13 + 3,2 +6 as output/input ratio number ]
Hi lanca IV,
But your last post pulse generator has nothing to do with our topic! This is something entirely different and has nothing to do with efficiency bigger than 1! I WILL REPEAT AGAIN: Can you show us some publication, article, any written text, you tube clip, etc., which unambiguously and directly tells us that any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer is actually an electric heater which has efficiency bigger than 1? (PLEASE FOCUS ON ELECTROLYZERS!)
Looking forward to your answer.
George
George, "appropriate technology" !
Efficiency ≥ 1 electrolysis from technical view : take a glas full with water and introduce ",chemslloy"- powderYou get a hydrolysis process !
Question by economic view : how much milligram hydrogen per hour and the hydrogen purity !
Not the efficiency stage is important for the industry but the costs of 1 Kg - nearly/pure- hydrogen production ,the 1 Kg hydrogen production velocity
andtoday cause mainstream criticism : carbon finger-/footpint free/poor !
When you write about " Simple Heater" and C.O.P.≥1 you have to define the parameters !
When I show you " simple heater"- concept/-s with C.O.P.≥ 1 you can not deny their existence and recuse it as " off-topic" !
Chemalloy,silver,palladium et cet. : anti- oxidant function !
Water : hydrogen + oxygen " anti-" : catalyzer effect splitter/divider
Have a nice weekend and probably " Carnivale"- feste
OCWL
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for your reply.
1) As if you are the only brave person here in this forum who dares to discuss a real theoretical breakthrough related to efficiency/COP > 1. Congratulations for this!
2) Your last post is very interesting. Please give us some time to consider it thoroughly and carefully.
3) When reading your last post at first glance however some questions appear immediately. And here are these questions.
3A) What do you mean exactly by using the phrase "introduce ",chemslloy"- powderYou get a hydrolysis process"? Please explain this in detail, if possible.
3B) What do you mean exactly by using the phrase "andtoday cause mainstream criticism : carbon finger-/footpint free/poor"?
3C) What do you mean exactly by using the phrases "Chemalloy,silver,palladium et cet. : anti- oxidant function ! Water : hydrogen + oxygen " anti-" : catalyzer effect splitter/divider"? You have arranged a series of words which as if need some additional explanation. Would you be so polite to explain this in detail, if possible?
4) It follows directly from our further development of Professor Srivastava's problem (please look at our previous posts) that every standard hydrogen generating electrlolyzer is actually a simple electric heater which has C.O.P./efficiency greater than 1. And what parameters to show -- any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer (from the small laboratory one to the biggest industrial electrolyzer that is bigger than a bus) has its parameters (power/energy consumption, rate of hydrogen production, hydrogen purity, etc.) which are adjusted and shown by the respective manufacturer.
5) We do not deny the possibility of existing of another heating technology THEORETICAL conception which has C.O.P./efficiency bigger than 1. Our question however was quite different and let us repeat it again: Can you show us some publication, article, any written text, you tube clip, etc., which unambiguously and directly tells us that any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer is actually an electric heater which has efficiency bigger than 1? (PLEASE FOCUS ON ELECTROLYZERS!)
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Hi lancaIV,
You still didn't answer our question. Let us repeat this question again: Can you show us some publication, article, any written text, you tube clip, etc., which unambiguously and directly tells us that any standard hydrogen-generating electrolyzer is actually an electric heater which has efficiency bigger than 1? (PLEASE FOCUS ON ELECTROLYZERS!)
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Palladium = Oxydant
Silver= Oxydant
Argentum-elements = Oxydants
Aluminium = Oxydant if not Oxidation-layered ergo anti- oxydation coating
https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f9/aluminum_water_hydrogen.pdf (https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f9/aluminum_water_hydrogen.pdf)
In the vicinity of room temperature, the reaction between aluminum metal and water to form aluminum hydroxide and hydrogen is the following: 2Al + 6H2O = 2Al(OH)3 + 3H2. The gravimetric hydrogen capacity from this reaction is 3.7 wt.% and the volumetric hydrogen capacity is 46 g H2/L.
https://phys.org/news/2007-05-hydrogen-aluminum-alloy-fuel-cells.html (https://phys.org/news/2007-05-hydrogen-aluminum-alloy-fuel-cells.html)
The gallium is critical to the process because it hinders the formation of a skin normally created on aluminum's surface after oxidation. This skin usually prevents oxygen from reacting with aluminum, acting as a barrier. Preventing the skin's formation allows the reaction to continue until all of the aluminum is used.
to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd157yBmNaM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd157yBmNaM)
active surface from 1 ccm solid aluminium versus surface area from 1 ccm nanoaluminium grains ?
Permanent Magnets = Oxydant ? EP0462103 ?!
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=EP&NR=0462103A4&KC=A4&date=&FT=D&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=EP&NR=0462103A4&KC=A4&date=&FT=D&locale=en_EP)
The magnetic amplifying assembly also produces other benefits such as increasing the pH of the water due to the reduction of hydrogen which bonds to the conduit. The available oxygen (aerobic activity) also increases 270 percent; and fewer BTU's are required per degree of temperature increase to heat the water.
When permanent magnets also electromagnets ,too !? What is electrolysis ? :P
With negative charge or positive charge ?
Hydrogen polarisation ? Oxygen polarisation ? Bonded !? Unbonded !?
Hydro - Oxid ~ water oxydation = splitting ; purity ? mole per sec/minute/hour ?
Hi lancaIV,
Interesting post. Please give us some time to consider it carefully. (But I would like to ask to be a little more specific and to express your thoughts in a little more clearer manner.)
George
Hi George.
Not all of the electrical energy becomes heat, during the electrolysis.
Some of the energy MUST have been spent to split the water / was not spent to heat the water. It's not split by the heat !
If the heating of the water by the passage of an electric current through it is a 100% efficient energy transformation,
then the breaking apart of the water molecules plus the heating is itself an O.U. event. This would be O.U. even before burning the H and O.
TO my understanding this is not the case. It's not O.U. .
Are there not electric charge potentials present in the H and O gases, which were not present in the water before electrolysis,
and which are the result of the electrolysis?
That ionization energy / potential is where some of the electrical energy put into the water goes during electrolysis.
If 100% of that ionization energy is transformed into heat when burning the H and O, then you have Unity, but still not O. U. .
But as I pointed out previously, If the electrolysis heating combined with the heat of H and O burning are = Unity (scientific convention holds this to be so)
Then.....
The H can be burned (heat gained) this = unity.
Energy gained as a rising of the H through the atmosphere before burning (Hydrogen balloon) is then O. U. .
Also
The H can be burned at a high altitude (mountain top) giving yet more O. U. as that of falling water.
The by product of that burning is water vapor.
floor
Hi Floor,
======================
======================
1) I am sending again our post of March 26, 2019, 10:39:21 AM.
"Please have a look at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
The above solved problem has a potential which can be developed further. And here it is.
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.
Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
-----------------------------
Therefore the text above unambiguously shows that it is a matter of exact experimental data which is in perfect accordance with theory. Because I cannot imagine that three highly qualified experts in physics (yet strongly separated by time, space and nationality) would have made one and same mistake three times in a row. This is impossible!"
-----------------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above?
YES OR NO?
==============================
==============================
2) As for the balloon variation I perfectly agree with you -- it is really an OU device. Shall we do it? Some approximate calculations?
==============================
==============================
Looking forward to your answers.
Regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on March 29, 2020, 10:13:12 AM
-------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above?
YES OR NO?
No
regards
floor
PS
Did you by chance find
some other references to
the hydrogen balloon On this forum
other than the single reference I (much earlier) posted
Hi Floor,
If you have no objections, then this means that you accept the simple fact any water electrolysis and hydrogen generating process theoretically has efficiency, which is bigger than 1.
----------------------------
Ok, there are already two brave persons in this forum (Floor and me) who accept the simple obvious fact that any standard water electrolysis process has efficiency, which is bigger than 1.
Any other brave persons in this forum who would share our revolutionary opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
George
I have no objections because I am not a chemist nor an physicist. Also, I am not familiar with the Russian texts / works you reference.
I doubt those authors actually intended to represent the electrolysis processes as O.U.
I doubt also that those authors / others, would have simply failed to notice that it was O. U. .
I think it's most likely that there has been, either a misinterpretation of, or an accidental misstatement of the electrolysis interactions. Other wise those authors might have
received a Nobel prize.
Do you agree ?
It (as I previously stated) seems to me that that resistive heating is unity (by definition) and
that the water molecule splitting will require additional energy.
Hi Floor,
Thank you for your reply.
I am tired of repeating one and same things over and over again for thousands of times. But I will do it again. (Not only for you but for any experts in physics and chemistry (if any in this forum).)
----------------------
It directly follows from Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solved problem and from our further development of this problem (our additional simple calculations) that any standard water electrolysis process THEORETICALLY has efficiency which is bigger than 1. And if THEORY is correct, then the related PRACTICE has to be also correct. And it directly follows from the last sentence that any standard water splitting and hydrogen generating electrolyzer has efficiency, which is bigger than 1.
----------------------
HOW TO EXPLAIN THE THINGS IN A SIMPLER AND EASIER MANNER?
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Quote from: George1 on April 12, 2020, 10:48:44 AM
It directly follows from Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solved problem and from our further development of this problem (our additional simple calculations) that any standard water electrolysis process THEORETICALLY has efficiency which is bigger than 1.
1. YOU say that it directly follows. This is your statement / folly
2. You did not say that Prof. S. L. Srivastava states or said that it directly follows.
3. What I said is that it is likely that Prof. S. L. Srivastava would have noticed the O.U.
and therfore he would also have straight forward / directly stated such.
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN THE THINGS IN A SIMPLER AND EASIER MANNER?
I'm done with you / your topics
Prof. S. L. Srivastava did not noticed the O. U. It's obvious. Otherwise he would become a Nobel prize winner. (The same for his Russian/Soviet colleagues 50 years ago.)
-----------------------------------
Please read carefully the text below.
-----------------------------------
1) THEORY and PRACTICE! Two words! It is a SIMPLE OBVIOUS FACT that if a certain scientific THEORY is correct, then the related PRACTICE has to be also correct. And if you have any objections against this SIMPLE OBVIOUS FACT, then you have some mental problems for sure.
2) In overunity.com and in besslerwheel.com/forum we (our team) released ABSOLUTELY FREE two pieces of THEORETICAL research, whose titles are " IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", respectively. For these two pieces of scientific THEORETICAL research is valid the statement in the previous item 1.
3) These two pieces of scientific THEORETICAL research (mentioned in the above item 2) unambiguously show (no serious and reasonable THEORETICAL objections within a period of two years in overunity.com and in besslerwheel.com/forum) that the law of conservation of energy and the law of coservation of linear momentum are not always correct. But there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact as any rule/law has its exceptions.
4) Our third piece of technology is a new electric technology which increases many times (at least twice as a minimum) the distance traveled by any standard electric vehicle on a single charge.
5) Our new electric technology has both THEORY and PRACTICE. In other words, we have a WORKING PROTOTYPE which perfectly confirms the correctness of the theoretical concept on which is based the principle of operation of our new electric technology. The latter is practically ready for production on a large industrial scale.
6) The secret of our new electric technology however is NOT FREE. It costs already 40,000,000 (forty) million dollars and this price will further rise if our first two pieces of THEORETICAL research (mentioned in the above item 2) do not win public recognition in the nearest future.
7) These 40,000,000 (forty) million dollars will be used mainly for charity and only a small part of this money will be used for some R&D work.
8) We (our team) are looking for buyers of the secret of our new electric technology (and of our next 7 (seven) inventions and technology innovations).
-------------------
George1
.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava did not notice the O. U. It's obvious. Otherwise he would become a Nobel prize winner. (The same for his Russian/Soviet colleagues 50 years ago.)
-----------------------------------
Please read carefully the text below.
-----------------------------------
1) THEORY and PRACTICE! Two words! It is a SIMPLE OBVIOUS FACT that if a certain scientific THEORY is correct, then the related PRACTICE has to be also correct. And if you have any objections against this SIMPLE OBVIOUS FACT, then you have some mental problems for sure.
2) In overunity.com and in besslerwheel.com/forum we (our team) released ABSOLUTELY FREE two pieces of THEORETICAL research, whose titles are " IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", respectively. For these two pieces of scientific THEORETICAL research is valid the statement in the previous item 1.
3) These two pieces of scientific THEORETICAL research (mentioned in the above item 2) unambiguously show (no serious and reasonable THEORETICAL objections within a period of two years in overunity.com and in besslerwheel.com/forum) that the law of conservation of energy and the law of coservation of linear momentum are not always correct. But there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact as any rule/law has its exceptions.
4) Our third piece of technology is a new electric technology which increases many times (at least twice as a minimum) the distance traveled by any standard electric vehicle on a single charge.
5) Our new electric technology has both THEORY and PRACTICE. In other words, we have a WORKING PROTOTYPE which perfectly confirms the correctness of the theoretical concept on which is based the principle of operation of our new electric technology. The latter is practically ready for production on a large industrial scale.
6) The secret of our new electric technology however is NOT FREE. It costs already 40,000,000 (forty) million dollars and this price will further rise if our first two pieces of THEORETICAL research (mentioned in the above item 2) do not win public recognition in the nearest future.
7) These 40,000,000 (forty) million dollars will be used mainly for charity and only a small part of this money will be used for some R&D work.
8) We (our team) are looking for buyers of the secret of our new electric technology (and of our next 7 (seven) inventions and technology innovations).
-------------------
George1
Hi everyone,
1) "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" up-to-now discussions unambiguously show that the law of conservation of energy and the law of conservation of linear momentum are not always correct. But there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact as any rule/law has its exceptions. That's all.
2) We are selling our next 8 (eight) inventions. As a first step we are selling a new electric technology, which increases many times (at least twice as a minimum) the distance traveled by any standard electric vehicle on a single charge. Actually we are selling a WORKING PROTOTYPE together with a full description of its principle of operation.
3) Our new electric technology can be successfully used in any battery-based electric device. For example if our new electric technology is used in an ordinary standard electric torch, then its working hours would be increased many times (at least twice as a minimum) preserving at the same time its standard rated intensity of light. So the electric torch industry could realize a good financial jump by using our new electric technology. (Please note that in many emergency cases the duration and the intensity of an electric torch light are of vital importance for saving of human lives for example.)
4) We have some ideas for how to sell our new electric technology. We are negotiating now with some big companies. At the same time however we are open for collaboration. If some member of this forum suggests a smart method of selling of our new electric technology and/or takes part in the selling process, then he/she would firstly earn good money and secondly, he/she would indirectly contribute to our charity causes.
----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Any buyer of our new electric technology? Any good idea for a successful selling of our new electric technology? (As mentioned in our previous post we are negotiating now with some big companies, but any help/any good idea is welcome.)
1) 40,000,000 (forty) million dollars! This is the price (for the present!) of our new electric technology that increases twice (as a minimum) the distance traveled by any standard electric vehicle on a single charge. Actually this new electric technology is our third piece of overunity conception (that is, let's say, 1W at the inlet, 2W at the outlet and efficiency = 2, respectively; the same for 1kW/2kW, 10kW/20kW, etc.), but this time it is experimentally proved. There is a working prototype which can be dullicated/copied as many times as you want (in several variations), if you are familiar with the related basic principle of operation.
-----------------------------------------
2) 1,000,000 (one) million dollars prize will be awarded to that member of this forum who can create a method for a successful selling of our third piece of overunity technology, mentioned in previous item 1.
(Note. Big companies seem to be heavy bureaucratic machines, which work in a very slow manner. Besides big companies' officers of different ranks as if tend to avoid taking responsibilities of any kind. Many of these officers (mainly in US) demonstrate total lack of business and/or technology competence. Furthermore our first two pieces of technology ("IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1") have not won public recognition yet and because of this they are still not famous enough and they are still of no interest to the general public. So as a final result the mentioned-in-our-previous-posts negotiations have been dragging on a little.
-----------------------------------------
3) 1,000,000 (one) million dollars prize will be awarded to that member of this forum who can create a method, which is able to win QUICKLY public recognition for the concepts, described in "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and in "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1". (If the concepts, described in "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and in "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", win public recognition, then the negotiations, mentioned in the above 'Note', would accelerate substantially for sure.
-----------------------------------------
4) It is evident that 2,000,000 (two) million dollars prize will be awarded to that member of this forum who can create simultaneously the two methods, described in previous items 2 and 3.
-----------------------------------------
So rack your brains and earn some good money, and invest it in your own OU projects. (I am sure that most members of this forum have OU (and other non-standard) projects of their own.)
1,000,000 (one) million dollars prize will be awarded to that member of this forum who can create a method, which is able to win QUICKLY public recognition for the concepts, described in "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and in "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1".
LET US PUSH FORWARD TOGETHER THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1,000,000 (one) million dollars prize will be awarded to that member of this forum who can create a method, which is able to win QUICKLY public recognition for the concepts, described in "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and in "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1".
Ok, we will not talk about money anymore. Let us try another approach.
1) Firstly," IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATRE THAN 1" must win public regognition and become an integral part of any standard textbook/manual of physics as quickly as possible. Besides our team (or at least one member of our team) must become a Nobel prize winner as this Nobel prize's money will used ENTIRELY for charity.
2) After realizing of previous item 1 we will release absolutely free the secret of our third invention (both theory and experiment) as well as the secrets of our next seven revolutionary and technology breakthrough inventions.
3) Thirdly, if the above item 1 is not realized successfully, then we will get back to the money-related variation, that is, the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
4) In one word, the realization of the above item 1 is actually a test for the stage of mental development of humankind. If the above item 1 is not realized soon, then this means that human society in general and its intelectual and scientific elite in particular are still at a primitive stage of mental development as they cannot properly evaluate obvious truths and revolutionary technology breakthroughs.
5) So do your best to help realizing the above item 1 as quickly as possible. Otherwise the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
Regards,
Ok, we will not talk about money anymore. Let us try another approach.
1) Firstly," IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" must win public recognition and become an integral part of any standard textbook/manual of physics as quickly as possible. Besides our team (or at least one member of our team) must become a Nobel prize winner as this Nobel prize's money will used ENTIRELY for charity.
2) After realizing of previous item 1 we will release absolutely free the secret of our third invention (both theory and experiment) as well as the secrets of our next seven revolutionary and technology breakthrough inventions.
3) Thirdly, if the above item 1 is not realized successfully, then we will get back to the money-related variation, that is, the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
4) In one word, the realization of the above item 1 is actually a test for the stage of mental development of humankind. If the above item 1 is not realized soon, then this means that human society in general and its intelectual and scientific elite in particular are still at a primitive stage of mental development as they cannot properly evaluate obvious truths and revolutionary technology breakthroughs.
5) So do your best to help realizing the above item 1 as quickly as possible. Otherwise the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
Regards,
LET US TOGETHER PUSH FORWARD THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
1) Firstly," IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" must win public recognition and become an integral part of any standard textbook/manual of physics as quickly as possible. Besides our team (or at least one member of our team) must become a Nobel prize winner as this Nobel prize's money will used ENTIRELY for charity.
2) After realizing of previous item 1 we will release absolutely free the secret of our third invention (both theory and experiment) as well as the secrets of our next seven revolutionary and technology breakthrough inventions.
3) Thirdly, if the above item 1 is not realized successfully, then we will get back to the money-related variation, that is, the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
4) In one word, the realization of the above item 1 is actually a test for the stage of mental development of humankind. If the above item 1 is not realized soon, then this means that human society in general and its intelectual and scientific elite in particular are still at a primitive stage of mental development as they cannot properly evaluate obvious truths and revolutionary technology breakthroughs.
5) So do your best to help realizing the above item 1 as quickly as possible. Otherwise the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
Regards,
electrolysis under pressure?
Many scientists died or were assassinated, many scientists like Tesla Stanley Meyer water car etc, or were threatened or had foul play or was proven fake.
Yea sure go ahead and patent or steal ideas yea sure you may be paid alot of money but i am very sure it will never be used by mankind.
Be careful what you do about disclosing what you know.
Bedini for one says he was threatened and there are many others in this field who got threatened and or other to stop, it is not what you think it is not a system that plays fair.
This stark reality has become more and more known through out time.
Dan.
Quote from: Floor on June 14, 2020, 01:23:04 PM
' '
Well i believe something created the universe, something created electric etc,
All of it returns to power to create giving even more power to create by using power to create.
It is a valid theory anyone will agree one way or another that something had the power to create everything otherwise we would not exist regarding the conception of cannot create nor destroy, it does not apply at all with what created everything.
If it were create nor destory then electric and everything else would not exist simply put as in what started it all.
The energy is inexposible meaning the energy is permanent meaning energy to create going back to power to create is perpetual at best, meaning the potential just multiplies to an unlimited amount so the energy of power to create going back into energy to create gives that energy back fully creating an even a more out than in, it does not get cut off from laws of energy as you know it, and the power to power to create potential is not wasted at all thus well even more power to create regarding the universes recycling system, power to create is unbalanced and it self generates in a way behind it all.
So energy to create going back into energy create as nature of energy always returns to it self, so from the beginning of where it began, began with power to create all by it self which created everything, so from the start it creates 3 energy for instance from 1 and then using that 3 energy back to the source of 1 it would not be even you would think it would be 6 but no this nature of energy to create does not behave like that, much more than 6.
With current thinking as i know creating it self or more out than in which is what power to create is well this is impossible with science but science is in error regarding the true nature of perpetual motion,
Perpetual motion and i do believe in it, is the power to create process and is the backbone of it all and holy grail where many have failed to find but not everyone.
But i do understand why well most reject perpetual motion, but if they ponder what created the universe well they will find perpetual motion, because the power to create is fully unbalanced unlike thinking everything has an equal opposing sides etc, this goes along with cannot create nor destroy simply put.
Most of the understanding of science hinges mostly on equal forces or the equalness which means no power to create or destroy but if they start thinking about power to create then things will be interesting.
Dan.
To lltfdaniel1
----------------------
Hi lltfdaniel1,
Thank you for your posts. Please give me some time to consider them carefully.
To Floor.
--------------------
Hi Floor,
Thank you for your post.
Electrolysis under pressure? Why not? Any idea?
LET US PUSH FORWARD TOGETHER THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Firstly," IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" must win public recognition and become an integral part of any standard textbook/manual of physics as quickly as possible. Besides our team (or at least one member of our team) must become a Nobel prize winner as this Nobel prize's money will used ENTIRELY for charity.
2) After realizing of previous item 1 we will release absolutely free the secret of our third invention (both theory and experiment) as well as the secrets of our next seven revolutionary and technology breakthrough inventions.
3) Thirdly, if the above item 1 is not realized successfully, then we will get back to the money-related variation, that is, the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
4) In one word, the realization of the above item 1 is actually a test for the stage of mental development of humankind. If the above item 1 is not realized soon, then this means that human society in general and its intelectual and scientific elite in particular are still at a primitive stage of mental development as they cannot properly evaluate obvious truths and revolutionary technology breakthroughs.
5) So do your best to help realizing the above item 1 as quickly as possible. Otherwise the price of our third invention is $40,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
Regards,
Hi everyone,
It is really surprising that obvious scientific truths cannot gain popularity quickly and easily among the members of the official science community. Do you have an explanation of this absurd fact?
Anyway let us repeat again the text of our last post with some small corrections and additions.
-------------------------------------------------------
1) Firstly," IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" must win public recognition and become an integral part of any standard textbook/manual of physics as quickly as possible. Besides our team (or at least one member of our team) must become a Nobel prize winner as this Nobel prize's money will used ENTIRELY for charity.
2) After realizing of previous item 1 we will release absolutely free the secret of our third invention (both theory and experiment) as well as the secrets of our next seven revolutionary and technology breakthrough inventions.
3) Thirdly, if the above item 1 is not realized successfully, then we will get back to the money-related variation, that is, the price of our third invention is ALREADY $50,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
4) In one word, the realization of the above item 1 is actually a test for the stage of mental development of humankind. If the above item 1 is not realized soon, then this means that human society in general and its intelectual and scientific elite in particular are still at a primitive stage of mental development as they cannot properly evaluate obvious truths and revolutionary technology breakthroughs.
5) So do your best to help realizing the above item 1 as quickly as possible. Otherwise the price of our third invention is $50,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future. (BUT PLEASE DO NOT THINK THAT WE ARE PATHOLOGICALLY GREEDY. ON THE CONTRARY! THE GREATER PART OF THESE $50,000,000 WILL BE USED FOR CHARITY AND ONLY A SMALL PART WILL BE USED FOR SOME R&D WORK.)
Regards
We tend to think that most of the official science community members are a kind of mafia, which oppresses and stops the technology progress. It is absolutely sure, of course, that there are exceptions, but how to find them? Anyway let us repeat again the text of our previous post.
-----------------------------------------
1) Firstly," IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" must win public recognition and become an integral part of any standard textbook/manual of physics as quickly as possible. Besides our team (or at least one member of our team) must become a Nobel prize winner as this Nobel prize's money will used ENTIRELY for charity.
2) After realizing of previous item 1 we will release absolutely free the secret of our third invention (both theory and experiment) as well as the secrets of our next seven revolutionary and technology breakthrough inventions.
3) Thirdly, if the above item 1 is not realized successfully, then we will get back to the money-related variation, that is, the price of our third invention is $50,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future.
4) In one word, the realization of the above item 1 is actually a test for the stage of mental development of humankind. If the above item 1 is not realized soon, then this means that human society in general and its intelectual and scientific elite in particular are still at a primitive stage of mental development as they cannot properly evaluate obvious truths and revolutionary technology breakthroughs.
5) So do your best to help realizing the above item 1 as quickly as possible. Otherwise the price of our third invention is $50,000,000 and this price will further rise in the nearest future. (Let us remind again the greater part of these $50,000,000 will be used for charity and only a small part will be used for some R&D work.)
Modify message
Hi everyone,
-----------------------------
The text below can be found in many of our previous posts. Anyway let us repeat it again.
-----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.
Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
-----------------------------
Therefore the text above unambiguously shows that it is a matter of exact experimental data which is in perfect accordance with theory. Because I cannot imagine that three highly qualified experts in physics (yet strongly separated by time, space and nationality) would have made one and same mistake three times in a row. This is impossible!"
-----------------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above?
YES OR NO?
why is no one answering? Is this person talking nonsense?
To kolbacict.
-----------------------
You are obviously an absolute amateur in the field of physics. Or even worse -- you are a person of bad will and most likely an agent of the BIG OIL/BIG MAFIA. It's a shame! How much did they pay you?
COP = 1.35 and COP = 1.37. A simple obvious fact. It unambiguously shows the incorrectness of the law of conservation of energy. (But you have to be a highly qualified expert in electrical engineering and in electrochemistry (or in physics as a whole) in order to understand what we are talking about.)
And yet the above mentioned obvious fact (COP = 1.35 and COP = 1.37) cannot gain popularity quickly and easily among the members of the official science community. Do you have an explanation of this absurd situation?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. S. Please look at our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09 PM, in order to understand how the two equalities COP = 1.35 and COP = 1.37 has been generated.
QuoteYou are obviously an absolute amateur in the field of physics.
This is mostly true.
Quotean agent of the BIG OIL/BIG MAFIA.
But this is not so. :)
I'm just wondering why the other participants are silent?
To kolbacict.
-------------------
Hi friend,
First of all I need to apologize for being as if a little more rude than necessary. It's my fault. Please excuse me for my, let's say to some extent, inadequate behaviour.
Secondly, the other participants (WHO ARE EXPERTS IN PHYSICS!) are silent because of one single and obvious reason. And this reason is the unambiguous and iron-made fact that our concept clearly shows that any standard hydrogen generating electrolyzer is actually a heater which has efficiency bigger than 1. (COP = 1.35 and COP = 1.37.)
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Deep silence again? What happens here in this forum? Aren't there any brave and competent (ENOUGH!) people here in this forum who are ready to accept the simple and obvious truth that the law of conservation of energy is not correct?
Modify message
Hi guys,
-------------------------
1) COP = 1.35. This means that the inlet energy is 1 J and the outlet energy is 1.35 J. Simple and clear.
2) COP = 1.37. This means that the inlet energy is 1 J and the outlet energy is 1.37 J. Simple and clear again.
3) In one word, there is an iron-made theoretical (THEORETICAL ONLY!) evidence that the law of conservation of energy is not correct in this particular case.
-------------------------
How to explain the things in a simpler and easier manner?
George
I wonder when in this forum will appear at least one brave person who will dare to say: "Yes, any standard hydrogen generating electrolyzer is OBVIOUSLY AND WITH NO DOUBT a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1." Where are you, brave forum members?
COP = 1.35. This means that the inlet energy is 1 J and the outlet energy is 1.35 J. Simple and clear. How long will it take for our concept to win public recognition?
Even if your electrolyzer has a heat efficiency of 1.37, heat pumps (freon) have it even higher. >3
am i right? What is the advantage of an electrolyser?
To kolbacict.
------------------------------------
Good question! The answer is simple however. Please look at the two links below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
The above two links answer clearly your question.
To kolbacict and to all other members of this forum, who are interested in the topic.
----------------------------------------------
Please look at the following five links below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilowatt-hour
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule%27s_laws
https://www.homerenergy.com/products/pro/docs/latest/electrolyzer_efficiency.html
The first link explains what is a conductor.
The second link explains what is a kilowhatt-hour (kWh).
The third link explains what is a Joule (J).
The fourth link gives the first Joule's law definition.
The fifth link gives some experimental data, that is, the electric energy, consumed by a standard hydrogen generator and the heat, generated by the released hydrogen, if the latter is burned/exploded. According to this fifth link a standard industrial water-splitting electrolyzer consumes 50 kWh of electric energy in order to produce 1kg of hydrogen. And if this 1 kg of hydrogen is burned/exploded, then the generated heat is 39.4 kWh, respectively.
----------------------------------------------
Please read very, very carefully the texts in the above links and understand very well what they are explaining exactly. And just then proceed to the text below.
----------------------------------------------
1) Let us assume that the first Joule's law is correct. Therefore 50 kWh of electric energy transforms entirely into 50 kWh of Joule's heat and in addition 1 kg of hydrogen is released, which if burned/exploded, generates 39.4 kWh of heat. So it is evident that the inlet energy is 50 kWh and the outlet energy is
50 kWh +39.4 kWh and we can write the inequality 50 kWh < 50 kWh + 39.4 kWh, that is, efficiency > 1. This is a technology breakthrough revolution 1.
----------------------------------------------
2) Let us assume that the law of conservation of energy is correct. In this case we have to write down the equality 50 kWh = 10.6 kWh + 39.4 kWh, where
10.6 kWh is the generated Joule's heat. It is evident that 50 kWh > 10.6 kWh and therefore the first Joule's law is not correct. This is a technology breakthrough revolution 2.
----------------------------------------------
3) Let us assume that the generated Joule's heat is smaller than 10.6 kWh. In this case both the law of conservation of energy and the first Joule's law are not correct. This is a technology breakthrough revolution 3.
----------------------------------------------
4) Let us assume that the generated Joule's heat is bigger than 10.6 kWh but smaller than 50 kWh. In this case both the law of conservation of energy and the first Joule's law are not correct. This is a technology breakthrough revolution 4.
----------------------------------------------
5) Let us assume that the generated Joule's heat is bigger than 50 kWh. In this case both the law of conservation of energy and the first Joule's law are not correct. This is a technology breakthrough revolution 5.
----------------------------------------------
6) In one word, it doesn't matter what will be your experimental results, related to the measurements of the generated Joule's heat. In any case you will have either
(a) a technology breakthrough revolution 1 or (b) a technology breakthrough revolution 2 or (c) a technology breakthrough revolution 3 or (d) a technology breakthrough revolution 4 or (e) a technology breakthrough revolution 5.
----------------------------------------------
(Note. In your calculations you can replace kWh with J (1 kWh = 3 600 000 J), but the facts will remain the same.)
-----------------------------------------------
7) Actually the experimental data are available (supposed to be guaranteed by the hydrogen generators' manufacturers) and it is only necessary to look at these experimental data and draw the related simple conclusions.
-----------------------------------------------
Everything seems to be correct, doesn't it?
-----------------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
George
Quote from: kolbacict on June 14, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
electrolysis under pressure?
Pressure is necessary for Electrolysis to occur.
At 0 Atm, and at (-) pressures, the process fails.
Mainly due to a great variation between water pressure and electric pressure. (tension)
This is different from atmospheric dispersion - where in water vapor is electrolyzed at 1ATM
Most electrolysis takes place at ~ 1 ATM out of convenience
And while there is little hard data on the subject, increases in pressure as well as sealed vessels
present some anomalies in energy measurements when changes in internal pressure exist.
To put it short and frank, it is possible to 'gain' energy values proportional to the liquid-gas phase change pressure difference.
Don't you believe in Stanley Meer's technology?
George
The easiest solution would be for you to register as an energy producer.
This will allow you to begin acquiring utility customers and generate a residual monthly income
from their power bills.
The more customers you acquire, the faster you can expand.
with a consumer base of approx. 260k customers: your income will approach $40Mil per month.
At 22k you will be pushing 40 mil per year
And with as little as 2300 customers you can reach your $40Mil goal in 10 years.
Quote3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
it seems to me a mistake that you consider here all the energy of electricity converting into heat.
To kolbacict.
---------------------
Hi kolbacict,
Thank you for your reply.
I am answering you immediately.
--------------------------------------------------
1) According to the first Joule's law if a standard DC source is connected to a standard conductor (no matter solid, liquid or gaseous), then the energy consumed by the conductor (this energy we called the inlet energy) turns entirely into Joule's heat (this heat we called outlet energy 1). Therefore we can write down the equality inlet energy = outlet energy 1
--------------------------------------------------
2) In any standard DC water electrolysis process however (while current passes through the water electrolysis electrolyte (which is a liquid conductor)) a portion of hydrogen is released and if this portion of hydrogen is burned/exploded, then an additional portion of heat is generated. This additional portion of heat we called outlet energy 2.
--------------------------------------------------
3) Having in mind the above items 1 and 2 we can write down the inequality inlet energy < outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2, which unambiguously shows that the sum of the two outlet energies is bigger than the inlet energy, that is, efficiency > 1. (And this is what we have discovered by our further development of Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solved problem.)
--------------------------------------------------
Do you accept the validity of the above considerations? Seems to be easy for understanding, doesn't it?
--------------------------------------------------
Looking for your answer.
To smOky2.
--------------------
Hi smOky2,
Thank you for your reply.
You wrote:"The easiest solution would be for you to register as an energy producer." This last sentence sounds very good at first sight. But would you be a little more precise, please? What exactly to do? What could be the first step for example?
Looking forward to your answer.
Hi.
Another source, this time German. only in Russian translation. I could not find English.
https://eknigi.org/engine/download.php?id=138928 (https://eknigi.org/engine/download.php?id=138928)
We read from page 16.
Hi kolbacict,
Thank you for your reply.
But what exactly do you mean? What to read and where in this link? Which book do you mean exactly and what is written there on page 1?
Not on page 1, but on page 16, sorry. What to read and where and in what language?
it is here.
wanted to translate, but there was no suitable program.
To kolbacict.
----------------------------
We found an expert in Russian who translated the text you had sent. But this text is full of incorrect assumptions and hypotheses. Who is the author of this text?
To kolbacict.
--------------------------------
Who is the author of this text and the related book? What is the title of this book?
QuoteWho is the author of this text and the related book? What is the title of this book?
yes, that's it!
https://eknigi.org/engine/download.php?id=138928 (https://eknigi.org/engine/download.php?id=138928)
To kolbacict.
-------------------------------
You are playing some strange game.
1) At first you are sending some Russian text, which is as if a part of some book. What is the title of this book in Russian (as it is obviously translated from German) and where to find it? (Our expert in Russian says that the translation quality is very bad.)
2) About the original German edition. Where to find it? (We have already an expert in German too.)
3) And at last, do you accept the validity of the first Joule's law, (a) which is supported by the official science and (b) which clearly states that if a standard conductor (no matter solid, liquid or gaseous) is connected to a standard DC source, then the electric energy consumed by this standard conductor (no matter solid, liquid or gaseous) turns entirely into heat?
Looking forward to your three answers.
To kolbacict.
--------------------------------
Where are you, my friend? Where did you disappear? You would answer my three questions?
The opposers of our electrolysis overunity heater lost entirely their psychic balance. Please look at the link https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/. (The title of the topic is just the same.)
Please look at https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/. Seems to be interesting.
Quote3) And at last, do you accept the validity of the first Joule's law, (a) which is supported by the official science and (b) which clearly states that if a standard conductor (no matter solid, liquid or gaseous) is connected to a standard DC source, then the electric energy consumed by this standard conductor (no matter solid, liquid or gaseous) turns entirely into heat?
I'm not sure if it is. I dont know. I'm just looking.
It's Ok. I understand. You can follow the same topic in besslerwheel.com/forum. For your convenience the greater part of the post there is given below.
========================================================
Let us assume that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
Therefore we can write down the inequalities
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2) <=> V > I x R (3) <=> V/R > I (4).
-----------------------
The last inequality (4) unambiguously shows that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------
The above considerations are not very precise however. In order to be precise enough we have to introduce the quantities v an i. In other words, we must write down the equality
(V - v) x (I - i) x t = ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t)+(Z x (I - i) x t x (HHV)) (5)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
v = minimum voltage necessary for the water-splitting electrolysis to begin
i = the related small decreasing of current I, caused by the presence of v.
And from here we can write down the inequalities
(V - v) x (I - i) x t > (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (6) <=>
<=> V - v > (I -i) x R (7) <=> (V - v)/R > I - i (8).
-----------------------------------------
The last inequality (8) shows again that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
------------------------------------------
It is evident that if V is much bigger than v (and I much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and in this case inequality (8) can be replaced with
inequality (4).
In one word, if equalities (1) and (5) are valid, then inequalities (4) and (8) are valid too. But this means that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------------------------
Ohm's law is the most basic and most fundamental axiom of electric engineering. No Ohm's law -- no electric engineering. Therefore equalities (1) and (5) are not valid and this fact confirms again the validity of our basic OU water-electrolysis-related concept, which is considered in this topic.
============================
Looking forward to your answer.
The yellow head with black spectacles in our previous post corresponds to number eight. (Some defect of the system obviously replaces number eight with stupid yellow head with black spectacles.)
Any comments, any opinions related to this topic? Any objections against the validity of our water electrolysis OU concept?
Quote from: George1 on October 24, 2020, 07:32:34 AM
Any comments, any opinions related to this topic? Any objections against the validity of our water electrolysis OU concept?
No comment on what you are presenting as I haven't studied it. However, I would like to point out the irony in regards to those who claim that free-energy tech is being suppressed.
There are those who repeatedly claim that free-energy tech is being suppressed and everyone here should be open-sourcing in order to save the world. Funny thing is that those same people can't even see the free-energy tech that's already in front of them. If people at a free-energy forum can't see it, how can we expect a world full of people with no interest in it to see it?
THAT is the
REAL problem that we face with free-energy tech!
To NdaClouDzzz.
-------------------------
Dear colleague,
Thank you for your reply. But some parts of your text seem to be a little difficult for understanding. Would you be so polite to explain them in detail, if possible?
George1
Here is a continuation/variation of our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00. (Please look at besslerwheel.com/forum. Almost the same text in the related topic of the same title.)
------------------------------------------------------
1) Let us assume again that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
------------------------------------------------------
2) Let us decrease n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (V/n) x (I/n) x t < ((I/n) x (I/n) x R x t) + (Z x (I/n) x t x (HHV)) (2)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
-------------------------------------------------------
3) Now let us increase n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (nV) x (nI) x t > ((nI) x (nI) x R x t) + (Z x (nI) x t x (HHV)) (3)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
--------------------------------------------------------
4) In one word, it is evident that:
a) equality (1) shows that efficiency is equal to 1;
b) inequality (2) shows that efficiency is bigger than 1;
c) inequality (3) shows that efficiency is smaller than 1.
---------------------------------------------------------
5) Therefore by regulating the value of V we can regulate and control the value of efficiency. In other words, efficiency can be either (a) bigger than 1 or (b) equal to 1 or (c) smaller than 1. And this depends on the value of V.
---------------------------------------------------------
6) let us remind again that in order to be more precise we have to use V - v instead of V and I - i instead of I, respectively. (For v and i please refer to our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00.) But if V (and V/n too!) is much bigger than v (and I (and I/n too!) much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and therefore (1), (2) and (3) are perfectly correct.
----------------------------------------------------------
7) In one word, we proved theoretically again that the law of conservation of energy is not always valid for any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process.
---------------------------------------------------------
The above theoretical considerations seem to be correct, don't they? What is your opinion? Please share it, if possible.
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Deep silence again? What happens here? How much time will it take for a simple obvious truth to win public recognition?
This is in jest of course but I do have a over unity heater in my apt right now. It mines ETC and keeps my apt at or above 83 degrees. At this moment it is returning a profit of $122 per month. I do no work for it other than watch. Nice heater huh?
thay
@George1
I don't think that you, your self, actually belive this is over unity.
Other wise, I think you would have shown us some experimental proof.
Please build an over unity water heater, and show us the measurements and methods.
Unfortunately, they don't answer me often too. so me have been to check the various assumptions yourself. :)
Quote from: Thaelin on November 07, 2020, 11:46:55 AM
This is in jest of course but I do have a over unity heater in my apt right now. It mines ETC and keeps my apt at or above 83 degrees. At this moment it is returning a profit of $122 per month. I do no work for it other than watch. Nice heater huh?
thay
Do you probably understand why inventors do not want to introduce their findings ?
70° ,assumption Fahrenheit ~ 21,1 ° Celsius 83 ° F ~ [(83 - 32)x5]/9 = ?
Average ? Ceiling level,floor level ?
Ecology does not interest you !?
Probably this we should understand as individuum ' sustainable behaviour' !?
Maximum and minimum by law in Germany : 17°(night)-22°Celsius(day) !( measure point ?)
In your country/estate ?
Appropriate heat device( central,decentral=1-room )
f.e.
US2013011125 Charles Souders 'Rolling lumens heating systems'
Address : Rochester Hills,MI/USA climate zone ?
"...... heated to and maintain a temperature of 70 degrees ."
Sincerely
p.s.: scola/ecole /escola/school/Schule : over 25°Celsius(shadow measurement)
=
HITZEFREI ! No lesson-/learning-condition !
Learning and the=l' l'earn(-ing)
Your apt - under actually Lock-down- not appropriate for ' home-schooling' ! 24/7 HITZEFREI ! 8)
It is ever interestant to compare our behaviour with social given benchmarks !
Child to Adult : why me and you not,too ?
Freedom of Future
THE TEXT BELOW IS FORBIDDEN FOR READING BY THOSE, WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH ARITHMETIC!
=============================================================================
Please consider CAREFULLY and THOROUGHLY the link below.
https://www.fuelcellstore.com/electrolyzer-65-e106
The link above describes a PEM electrolyzer and its operating characteristics. Three of them (most important ones) are given below for your convenience.
Power Consumption: 16 Watts at 4.0 VDC
Permissible Operating Voltage: 0 - 4 VDC
Permissible Operating Current: 0 - 4.4 A
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us consider two examples and compare them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) EXAMPLE 1. A standard copper wire is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. The voltage of the DC source is equal to 4 VDC. The copper wire consumes 16 Watts at 4 VDC within a period of 1000 seconds. And from here we can easily calculate (a) current I, which flows through the copper wire, (b) Ohmic resistance R of the copper wire, (c) electric energy E, which is generated by the DC source and (d) Joule's heat Q, which is generated by the copper wire. Simple arithmetic shows that I = 4 A (an ammeter would register a current of 4 A), R = 1 Ohm (an ohmmeter would register an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm), E = 16000 J and Q = 16000 J. Therefore efficiency of the copper wire (if considered as a Joule's heater only) is given by the equalities Q/E = 1 and 16000 J/16000 J = 1, respectively.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) EXAMPLE 2. The above described PEM electrolyzer is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. The voltage of the DC source is equal to 4 VDC. The above described PEM electrolyzer consumes 16 Watts at 4 VDC within a period of 1000 seconds. And from here we can easily calculate (a) current I, which flows through the above described PEM electrolyzer , (b) Ohmic resistance R of the above described PEM electrolyzer, (c) electric energy E, which is generated by the DC source and (d) Joule's heat Q, which is generated by the above described PEM electrolyzer. Simple arithmetic shows that I = 4 A (an ammeter would register a current of 4 A), R = 1 Ohm (an ohmmeter would register an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm), E = 16000 J and Q = 16000 J. Therefore efficiency of the above described PEM electrolyzer (if considered as a Joule's heater only) is given by the equalities Q/E = 1 and 16000 J/16000 J = 1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) In addition however AS A SIDE EFFECT (AS A BY-PRODUCT) the above described PEM electrolyzer releases a certain amount of hydrogen, which if burned/exploded, generates an additional heat H. Therefore the correct efficiency of the above described PEM electrolyzer (if considered as a heater) is given by the inequalities (Q + H)/E > 1 and
(16000 J + H)/16000 J > 1, respectively.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) Experimental data (Power Consumption: 16 Watts at 4.0 VDC), guaranteed by the manufacturer, and some simple arithmetic. One and same approach, but different final results.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5) The text above unambiguously leads us back to our first post of January 28, 2019, 08:58:40 AM.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOW MUCH TIME WILL IT TAKE FOR SIMPLE OBVIOUS TRUTH TO WIN PUBLIC RECOGNITION?
Do you have a calorimeter? Put this electrolyzer there,and measure the actual heat generation.
That would be interesting to me.And you, I think, too. :)
https://youtu.be/hlrhW33xk7U (https://youtu.be/hlrhW33xk7U)
Well, here's an alternating current electrolysis.No diodes, no rectifiers, just a transformer.
To kolbacict.
---------------------
Hi kolbacict,
Thank you for your reply.
1) About the alternating current electrolysis. Interesting, very interesting! Please give us some time to consider it carefully.
2) Please have a look again at our last post. Do you need a calorimeter in order to measure the Joule's heat, which is generated by the copper wire? Obviously not -- you take it for granted. The same for the PEM electrolyzer. It behaves just like the copper wire, if considered as a Joule's heater only, and because of this just like the copper wire it does not need a calorimeter in order to measure the generated Joule's heat. Simple logic, doesn't it?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi.
In the case of wire it is not necessary. In the case of an electrolyser, it is not obvious. I'd rather measure it.
In the case of alternating current, everything is simple. one of the two electrodes is made of niobium.When it is an anode, it is oxidized.And does not conduct current.Maybe someone will consider this a hoax, but it's interesting anyway. :)
To kolbacict.
============
============
Hi,
Thank you for your reply.
============
Yes, you are absolutely right that AC electrolysis is an interesting concept and let us not be in a hurry to reject it. As if it has some serious potential, which must be studied however precisely and thoroughly. Please give us some time to consider carefully the related link you have sent.
============
Please refer to our previous post, which describes the PEM electrolyzer.
--------------------------------
1) A standard copper wire is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. The voltmeter registers a voltage of 4VDC, the watt-meter registers a power of 16 Watts, the ammeter registers a current of 4 A, the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm and the clock registers a period of 1000 seconds, within which a current of 4 A flows through the copper wire.
Question 1: What is the value of the Joule's heat, generated by the copper wire?
Answer 1: The Joule's heat, generated by the copper wire, is just equal to 16000 J.
Question 2: Is it necessary to use a calorimeter for measuring this Joule's heat of 16000 J?
Answer 2: No, it is not necessary to use a calorimeter for measuring this Joule's heat of 16000 J. The latter is accepted to be true without any doubt by any electric engineer in the world.
--------------------------------
2) The PEM electrolyzer is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. The voltmeter registers a voltage of 4VDC, the watt-meter registers a power of 16 Watts, the ammeter registers a current of 4 A, the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm and the clock registers a period of 1000 seconds, within which a current of 4 A flows through the PEM electrolyzer.
Question 1: What is the value of the Joule's heat, generated by the PEM electrolyzer?
Answer 1: The Joule's heat, generated by the PEM electrolyzer, is just equal to 16000 J.
Question 2: Is it necessary to use a calorimeter for measuring this Joule's heat of 16000 J?
Answer 2: No, it is not necessary to use a calorimeter for measuring this Joule's heat of 16000 J. The latter is accepted to be true without any doubt by any electric engineer in the world.
--------------------------------
In one word, in this particular case the copper wire and the PEM electrolyzer are absolutely identical and equivalent, if both are considered as Joule's heaters only. As a generator of Joule's heat only, the PEM electrolyzer behaves just like the copper wire. Simple and clear.
--------------------------------
Do you accept the validity of the above extremely simple logic?
QuoteAnswer 2: No, it is not necessary to use a calorimeter for measuring this Joule's heat of 16000 J. The latter is accepted to be true without any doubt by any electric engineer in the world.
QuoteHamlet
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
:)
It is not obvious to me until I measure it myself in a calorimeter.
I would like it to be that way, because I have to spend on fuel.
Hi kolbacict,
-------------------------------
1) It is perfectly valid for the copper wire circuit that (a) the voltmeter registers a voltage of 4VDC, (b) the watt-meter registers a power of 16 Watts, (c) the ammeter registers a current of 4 A, (d) the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm and (e) the clock registers a period of 1000 seconds, within which a current of 4 A flows through the copper wire.
-------------------------------
2) It is perfectly valid for the PEM electrolyzer circuit that (a) the voltmeter registers a voltage of 4VDC, (b) the watt-meter registers a power of 16 Watts, (c) the ammeter registers a current of 4 A, (d) the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm and (e) the clock registers a period of 1000 seconds, within which a current of 4 A flows through the PEM electrolyzer.
-------------------------------
3) What is the difference between previous items 1 and 2?
The simplest calorimeter is a defined volume of water with a known heat capacity.Surrounded by thermal insulation.By the change in temperature, we solve about the number of joules. right?
You make me do it myself. You live well there.And here life is not sweet.I have to do many things that do not bring pleasure.But need to make a living. :)
Quote from: kolbacict on November 14, 2020, 12:27:16 PM
https://youtu.be/hlrhW33xk7U (https://youtu.be/hlrhW33xk7U)
Well, here's an alternating current electrolysis.No diodes, no rectifiers, just a transformer.
That video idea looks a bit dangerous is all it is at what I can see is a container
full of a liquid possible plain water fed by an isolation transformer or auto transformer.
What hapens wen all the water evaporates or some one picks it up while it's live ?
The circuit will break and there will be no current.
To kolbacict.
==================
Hi kolbacict,
Thank you for your reply. And my respect to your enthusiasm for seeking the truth despite of the difficulties in your life!
---------------------------------
May be it would not be necessary to use a calorimeter. Please read the text below, if you like. (The text below repeats some considerations from our previous posts.)
---------------------------------
1) It is perfectly valid for the copper wire circuit (which is hidden inside a black box 1) that (a) the voltmeter registers a voltage of 4VDC, (b) the watt-meter registers a power of 16 Watts, (c) the ammeter registers a current of 4 A, (d) the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm and (e) the clock registers a period of 1000 seconds, within which a current of 4 A flows through the copper wire.
-------------------------------
2) It is perfectly valid for the PEM electrolyzer circuit (which is hidden inside a black box 2) that (a) the voltmeter registers a voltage of 4VDC, (b) the watt-meter registers a power of 16 Watts, (c) the ammeter registers a current of 4 A, (d) the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 1 Ohm and (e) the clock registers a period of 1000 seconds, within which a current of 4 A flows through the PEM electrolyzer.
-------------------------------
3) Let us assume that an electric engineer must measure the Joule's heat generated by the load, which is hidden inside black box 1. Having in mind the readings of the measuring devices (voltmeter, ammeter, ohmmeter, watt-meter and clock) he/she would inevitably conclude that the Joule's heat, generated by the hidden load, is just equal to 16000 J.
------------------------------
4) Let us assume that an electric engineer must measure the Joule's heat generated by the load, which is hidden inside black box 2. Having in mind the readings of the measuring devices (voltmeter, ammeter, ohmmeter, watt-meter and clock) he/she would inevitably conclude that the Joule's heat, generated by the hidden load, is just equal to 16000 J.
------------------------------
5) In one word, any electric engineer in the world, without being interested what loads are hidden inside black boxes 1 and 2, would inevitably conclude that the Joule's heat, generated by any of the two hidden loads, is just equal to 16000 J. Any electric engineer in the world would only look at the readins of the measuring devices and after that he/she would only make some simple calculations leading to 16000 J of Joule's heat generated by any of the two hidden loads.
------------------------------
What is your opinion? Two black boxes and two unknown loads hidden inside these two black boxes. For the any of the two cases you have only the readings of the measuring devices (voltmeter, ammeter, ohmmeter, watt-meter and clock). How to get the Joule's heat generated by any of the two hidden and unknown loads?
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
Hi.
the resistance of the copper wire is constant and the power is constant for a long time.the resistance of the electrolytic cell will not be constant.there will be chemical reactions, electrodes will dissolve, changing the composition of the electrolyte.Although, within 1000 seconds it will be quite small.
Already will introduce an error.
Hi kolbacict,
Thank you for your reply.
Good answer indeed! Yes, an error could really appear just as you mention in your last post. This error however can be easily
eliminated by two parallel (simultaneous) ways. Firstly, you have to add regularly distilled water in the PEM eletrolyzer and
secondly, you have to cool down regularly that same PEM electrolyzer thus keeping constant its temperature and its Ohmic
resistance, respectively. It's simple.
(Please look also at our post of March 26, 2019, 10:39:21 AM, almost two years ago. It is written there that:"Constant pure/distilled water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's/electrolyzer's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.)
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hi.
If we running cold water continuously, how can we measure heat release?
But I suppose we can still measure it. the change in the composition of the electrolyte in 1000 seconds can be neglected. As the temperature rises, the cell resistance will drop. But we can use a power supply with output power stabilization. At 16 watts. And it will be reliable enough.
p.s. https://overunity.com/18709/the-optimum-electrode-waveform-for-watergas-production/msg553329/#new (https://overunity.com/18709/the-optimum-electrode-waveform-for-watergas-production/msg553329/#new)
Here, it seems people are already getting over-unity hydrogen.(over and above Faraday.) ;)
Hi kolbacict,
Thank you for your reply. It's a real pleasure to discuss the matter with you.
----------------------------
1) Well, you rise interesting questions related to precise calorimetric measuring. (The latter is in any case a sophisticated and complex field of knowledge.) You have some original measuring ideas as I can see. Perfect! Agree with them!
2) About the p.s. Yes, it's perfectly possible that these guys have designed some OU electrolysis process. As if there are many OU possibilities in this world. Need some time to consider their concept carefully.
----------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Hello George 1
You started this topic on 01/28/19.
Here is your original statement / claim / bait.
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?
Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If so, what and will you share that with us ?
I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...
floor
To kolbacict, to floor and to the other members of this forum, who are interested in the topic.
===============================
And here is one more mental exercise for entertainment only. :)
------------------------------------------------------
1) An unknown load is hidden inside a black box 1. The load is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. This circuit is equipped with (a) a voltmeter, (b) an ammeter, (c) an ohmmeter and (d) a watt-meter, which register 4VDC, 4 A, 1 Ohm and 16 Watts, respectively.
------------------------------------------------------
2) Another unknown load is hidden inside a black box 2. The load is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit. This circuit is equipped with (a) a voltmeter, (b) an ammeter, (c) an ohmmeter and (d) a watt-meter, which register 4VDC, 4 A, 1 Ohm and 16 Watts, respectively.
------------------------------------------------------
3) One of the unknown loads is the copper wire and the other unknown load is the PEM electrolyzer. (Please refer to our previous posts.) But you don't know in which black box is hidden the copper wire and in which black box is hidden the PEM electrolyzer, respectively.
------------------------------------------------------
4) Long before the above described measuring procedures we have checked and we have ascertained the fact that the PEM electrolyzer's operating characteristics (please refer to our previous posts) correspond to reality, that is, the PEM electrolyzer's manufacturer has done the job correctly.
------------------------------------------------------
5) Because of some emergency situation in an explosives manufacturing factory for example you have not at your disposal (or you are not allowed to use) any supplementary measuring devices like calorimeters, gas detectors/analyzers, infrared radiation detectors/analyzers, etc. You have at your disposal solely and only voltmeters, ammeters, ohmmeters and watt-meters. Besides you are not allowed to open/brеак any of the two black boxes too.
------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION: In which black box is hidden the copper wire? In black box 1 or in black box 2? (You have to guess because otherwise you have to run very quickly :) in order to avoid meeting with a possible unpleasant accident. Or perhaps it would be much better if you run quickly at once :) without doing any measurements and without trying to guess in which black box is hidden the copper wire?)
-----------------------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
==============================
P. S. If my sense of humour and my attempt to be amusing seem inadequate (more or less) to some members of this forum, then please excuse me. I am ready to apologize. But the question remains: In which black box is hidden the copper wire? In black box 1 or in black box 2? Can you guess this riddle by using solely and only voltmeters, ammeters, ohmmeters and watt-meters?
In which black box is hidden the copper wire? In black box 1 or in black box 2? (Using only voltmeters, ammeters, ohmmeters and watt-meters.)
By how the current changes during these 1000 seconds. In the case of copper wire, it will hardly change. :)
To kolbacict.
--------------------------
Good question! And here is the answer. Actually two answers.
1) Regularly cooling down the electrolyzer by some cooling agent, which can be for example the water used in your hot-water heating system.
2) The period of time is not necessary to be equal to 1000 seconds. The period of time could be equal to 100 seconds, 10 seconds or even 1 second. The electrlyte's Ohmic resistance will not change and will remain practically constant within a period of 10 seconds for example.
Let us focus again on pure theory.
---------------------------------------
Please have a look again at our post of October 31, 2020, 10:07:39 AM. For your convenience I am giving below the text of this post. (The text is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.)
===============================
Here is a continuation/variation of our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00. (Please look at besslerwheel.com/forum. Almost the same text in the related topic of the same title.)
------------------------------------------------------
1) Let us assume again that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
------------------------------------------------------
2) Let us decrease n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (V/n) x (I/n) x t < ((I/n) x (I/n) x R x t) + (Z x (I/n) x t x (HHV)) (2)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
-------------------------------------------------------
3) Now let us increase n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (nV) x (nI) x t > ((nI) x (nI) x R x t) + (Z x (nI) x t x (HHV)) (3)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
--------------------------------------------------------
4) In one word, it is evident that:
a) equality (1) shows that efficiency is equal to 1;
b) inequality (2) shows that efficiency is bigger than 1;
c) inequality (3) shows that efficiency is smaller than 1.
---------------------------------------------------------
5) Therefore by regulating the value of V we can regulate and control the value of efficiency. In other words, efficiency can be either (a) bigger than 1 or (b) equal to 1 or (c) smaller than 1. And this depends on the value of V.
---------------------------------------------------------
6) let us remind again that in order to be more precise we have to use V - v instead of V and I - i instead of I, respectively. (For v and i please refer to our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00.) But if V (and V/n too!) is much bigger than v (and I (and I/n too!) much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and therefore (1), (2) and (3) are perfectly correct.
----------------------------------------------------------
7) In one word, we proved theoretically again that the law of conservation of energy is not always valid for any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process.
---------------------------------------------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above? Is there any formula/logical construction in the text above which is incorrect and if yes, then why? Please focus solely and only on the analysis (line by line) of the text above.
================================
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
A hot discussion occurs in besslerwheel.com/forum. The title of the topic is just the same.
I am giving below again the text of our last post of October 18, 2020, 08:15:09 PM. The post's text is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.
====================
Let us assume that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
Therefore we can write down the inequalities
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2) <=> V > I x R (3) <=> V/R > I (4).
-----------------------
The last inequality (4) unambiguously shows that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------
The above considerations are not very precise however. In order to be precise enough we have to introduce the quantities v an i. In other words, we must write down the equality
(V - v) x (I - i) x t = ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t)+(Z x (I - i) x t x (HHV)) (5)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
v = minimum voltage necessary for the water-splitting electrolysis to begin
i = the related small decreasing of current I, caused by the presence of v.
And from here we can write down the inequalities
(V - v) x (I - i) x t > (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (6) <=>
<=> V - v > (I -i) x R (7) <=> (V - v)/R > I - i (8).
-----------------------------------------
The last inequality (8) shows again that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
------------------------------------------
It is evident that if V is much bigger than v (and I much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and in this case inequality (8) can be replaced with inequality (4).
In one word, if equalities (1) and (5) are valid, then inequalities (4) and (8) are valid too. But this means that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------------------------
Ohm's law is the most basic and most fundamental axiom of electric engineering. No Ohm's law -- no electric engineering.
==============================
Looking forward to your answer.
Number eight in brackets is replaced by some stupid head with black spectacles. Some error of the system.
Here is a copy (surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines) of my last post in besslerwheel.com/forum. The same topic, the same title.
============================
Let me explain again simple obviuos things. You are not reading carefully and thoroughly my posts and that's why you are distorting (either deliberately or not) my words.
-------------------------------------
1) V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1). This is the law of conservation of energy. Do you accept the validity of this item 1? YES OR NO?
--------------------------------------
2) V = I x R (2). This is the Ohm's law. Do you accept the validity of this item 2? YES OR NO?
--------------------------------------
3) If equality (1) is correct, then the inequalty V x I x t > (I x I x R x t) (3) must be correct too. Do you accept the validity of this item 3? YES OR NO?
-------------------------------------
4) If we divide both sides of inequality (3) by (I x t), then we will get the inequality V > I x R (4). The latter is a severe violation of the Ohm's law and that is why it cannot be true. Do you accept the validity of this item 4? YES OR NO?
------------------------------------
5) Inequality (4) is directly related to (directly follows from) equality (1) and as inequality (4) cannot be true, then equality (1) cannot be true either. Do you accept the validity of this item 5? YES OR NO?
------------------------------------
You have to answer the question "YES OR NO?" five times.
------------------------------------
I am really shocked that I have to explain the basic axioms of electric engineering to people who pretend to be qualified. Tragedy!
=================================
Quote from: Floor on November 22, 2020, 01:05:56 PM
Hello George 1
You started this topic on 01/28/19.
Here is your original statement / claim / bait.
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?
Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If so, what and will you share that with us ?
I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...
floor
E / I x R, but I x E = power as watts.
Ohms law applies to the transformation of amperage to heat (P = I x E)
Only in a theoretical PURELY resistive circuit is ALL of the electric energy transformed into heat.
If an electric circuit has a large magnetic component doing mechanical work (like a coil in a motor),
electric energy which would otherwise, have been transformed into heat, will be instead transformed into a magnetic force doing mechanical work.
quote from George1
"Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors"
end
Ohm's law IS valid for liquid resistors....
but...
in a liquid resistor, where in, electrolysis also occurs, some of the input
electrical energy is used to cause the water splitting. This is aside from
the electrical energy causing heat.
best wishes
floor
To Floor.
------------------------------
If there exist any energy Esw, which is necessary for splitting of water, then equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) must be transformed into
equalty V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (Esw) (1A). But despite of this transformation inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t remains valid.
To Floor.
------------------------------
If there exist any energy Esw, which is necessary for splitting of water, then equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) must be transformed into
equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (Esw) (1A). But despite of this transformation inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t remains valid.
Quote from: George1 on November 28, 2020, 07:52:14 AM
To Floor.
------------------------------
If there exist any energy Esw, which is necessary for splitting of water, then equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) must be transformed into
equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (Esw) (1A). But despite of this transformation inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t remains valid.
I find no explanation of the meaning of the expression you have used "Esw" in my internet searches.
1. The not so obvious. That energy from the electricity, which was not transformed into heat, is present in the ionization states of the derived gases.
2. The not so obvious. Your equations are misapplied. This has already been explained to you
several time in this topic.
3. The not so obvious. Some of the evolved gases will recombine into water before they escape from the electrolyte. BEFORE ! (they will recombine within the electrolyte).
Guess what ? This is an oxidation.
Guess what else ? It produces heat.
Guess what else again ? It is the SAME AMOUNT of heat energy that would have been produced per joule of electric energy when transformed directly into heat via resistance heating.
4. The obvious. The splitting of the water molecule by electrolysis DOES require an input
of energy.
5. The obvious. The heat evolved within the electrolyte due to electrical resistance heating is NOT
the cause of the water molecule splitting into H and O.
6. The obvious. That input energy which IS NOT transformed into heat DOES NOT just go away.
That energy is present in the ionization states of the gases evolved.
7. That ionization energy is transformed into heat when the gases are recombined as they are burned together.
8.The obvious. You, yourself do not believe the claim you are making is true.
I recommend that all interested readers, read through this topic from its start. It has some very good input from some very knowledgeable people.
floor
To Floor.
-------------------------------
But dear Floor, you are not reading carefully and thoroughly my posts. (If reading them at all.) Please read my posts, if possible.
1) Any outlet energy is put on the right side of the equation.
2) It is a matter of entirely Ohmic resistance.
3) Etc, etc.
To Floor.
-------------------------
Please read carefully my posts!
@George1
1. Didn't you know that the electrolysis plus the burning of the H and O is not O.U..
2. Didn't you know that this forum has had dozens of explorations of, and thousands of pages dedicated precisely to the examining of variations of the electrolysis process in an O.U. context ?
3. The electrical energy converted to heat energy in a PURELY resistive circuit is 1 per 1.
4. This is true for ANY PURELY resistive electric circuit whether the resistor is solid or liquid.
5. An electrical circuit is NO LONGER a PURELY resistive circuit when electrolysis occurs.
What next ?
You going to sell us on the phallicy that an electrically energized coil is O.U. because the magnetic field is in addition to the heat produced ?
Or that in a wire coil with an AC current, total resistance is only the ohmic and doesn't include impedance ?
Me thinkest thow knowest not the shit where of ye speak .....
I cry B.S. on you.
floor
To Floor..
--------------------------
Hi Floor,
Yes, you are absolutely right that some additional aspects of the problem have to be further clarified and discussed. And here they are.
--------------------------------------
1) Actually the correct equation is
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B),
where
V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer
I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1
Z x I x t x (HHV) = output energy 2 = heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
X = output energy 3 = sum of all additional energies, which are necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc.
----------------------------------
2) It is evident from the above equality (1B) that (V x I x t) is the sum and that (I x I x R x t), (Z x I x t x (HHV)) and (X) are the addends, respectively.
----------------------------------
3) According to the rules of standard arithmetic the sum is always bigger than any of the addends (forming that same sum). Therefore the
sum (V x I x t) is bigger than the addend (I x I x R x t). Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B).
----------------------------------
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
-----------------------------------
5) The last inequality (4B) as if shows a violation of Ohm's law. Because the correct mathematical expression for Ohm's law is V = I x R (5B), isn't it?
----------------------------------
Everything in the above considerations seems to be logically and mathematically correct, doesn't it? What is your opinion?
(I am not pressing you to accept the validity of anything at once. We are simply seeking for the truth together. I am not in a hurry. I will be patient. I promise.:))
Looking forward to your answer.
Respectfully yours,
George
@George1
1. Didn't you know that the electrolysis plus the burning of the H and O is not O.U..
2. Didn't you know that this forum has had dozens of explorations of, and thousands of pages dedicated precisely to the examining of variations of the electrolysis process in an O.U. context ?
3. The electrical energy converted to heat energy in a PURELY resistive circuit is 1 per 1.
4. This is true for ANY PURELY resistive electric circuit whether the resistor is solid or liquid.
5. An electrical circuit is NO LONGER a PURELY resistive circuit when electrolysis occurs.
What next ?
You going to sell us on the phallicy that an electrically energized coil is O.U. because the magnetic field is in addition to the heat produced ?
Or that in a wire coil with an AC current, total resistance is only the ohmic and doesn't include impedance ?
floor
To Floor.
-------------------------
Dear Floor,
You demonstrate again a shocking lack of understanding of basic terms and axioms of electric engineering. For example how could you even dare to compare directly and quantitatively HEAT and MAGNETIC FIELD? HEAT is measured in Joules (J) and INTENSITY(!!!!) OF MAGNETIC FIELD (not magnetic field itself, but only one of its properties!) is measured in Tesla (T). Do you know what is the difference between Tesla (T) and Joule (J)? How to discuss the matter with "expert" like you? Please firstly educate seriously yourself and just then take part in this discussion!
To all other QUALIFIED(!) members of this forum.
===============================
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
===============================
The text above, surrounded/limited up and down by doubled dashed lines is an abstract from our post of December 03, 2020, 10:53:16 AM.
Any comments and/or questions?
I am giving below again (with some small changes and additions) our post of December 03, 2020, 10:53:16 AM.
=====================
1) Actually the correct equation is
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B),
where
V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer
I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1
Z x I x t x (HHV) = output energy 2 = heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
X = output energy 3 = sum of all additional energies, which are necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc.
----------------------------------
2) It is evident from the above equality (1B) that (V x I x t) is the sum and that (I x I x R x t), (Z x I x t x (HHV)) and (X) are the addends, respectively.
----------------------------------
3) According to the rules of standard arithmetic the sum is always bigger than any of the addends (forming that same sum). Therefore the
sum (V x I x t) is bigger than the addend (I x I x R x t). Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B).
----------------------------------
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
-----------------------------------
5) The last inequality (4B) shows a severe violation of Ohm's law. (Because the correct mathematical expression for Ohm's law is V = I x R (5B), isn't it?)
-----------------------------------
6) The obvious invalidity of inequality V > I x R (4B) directly leads to the invalidity of equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B). Therefore the law of conservation of energy is not valid in this particular water-splitting electrolysis case. (I am tired of repeating hundreds of time one and same obvious fact: Any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.)
------------------------------------
Important note. This discussion is focused SOLELY and ONLY on water-slitting electrolysis! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
------------------------------------
Any questions and/or comments? (But questions and/or comments, which are reasonable and qualified!)
Hello George 1
You started this topic on 01/28/19.
Here is your original statement / claim / bait.
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?
Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If so, what and will you share that with us ?
I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...
@ George1
1. Didn't you know that the electrolysis plus the burning of the H and O is not O.U..
2. Didn't you know that this forum has had dozens of explorations of, and thousands of pages dedicated precisely to the examining of variations of the electrolysis process in an O.U. context ?
3. The electrical energy converted to heat energy in a PURELY resistive circuit is 1 per 1.
4. This is true for ANY PURELY resistive electric circuit whether the resistor is solid or liquid.
5. An electrical circuit is NO LONGER a PURELY resistive circuit when electrolysis occurs.
floor
To Floor.
===================
You are not reading my posts at all. This is not a discussion. This is your monologue. This is an old and clumsy manipulation trick, which does not work already in XXI century when there is an internet and most people are well informed and educated. You are obviously an agent of the official science mafia.
===================
I strongly believe and hope that the last sentence is not true. Let us check again (and for the last time) whether you are an agent of the official science mafia or not. Please read carefully the text below and answer 6 simple theoretical questions.
-----------------------------------
1) The correct equation for the law of conservation of energy for standard water-splitting electrolysis is
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B),
where
V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer
I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1
Z x I x t x (HHV) = output energy 2 = heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
X = output energy 3 = sum of all additional energies, which are necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc.
QUESTION 1. DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS ITEM 1?
----------------------------------
2) It is evident from the above equality (1B) that (V x I x t) is the sum and that (I x I x R x t), (Z x I x t x (HHV)) and (X) are the addends, respectively.
QUESTION 2. DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS ITEM 2?
----------------------------------
3) According to the rules of standard arithmetic the sum is always bigger than any of the addends (forming that same sum). Therefore the
sum (V x I x t) is bigger than the addend (I x I x R x t). Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B).
QUESTION 3. DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS ITEM 3?
----------------------------------
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
QUESTION 4. DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS ITEM 4?
-----------------------------------
5) The last inequality (4B) shows a severe violation of Ohm's law. (Because the correct mathematical expression for Ohm's law is V = I x R (5B).)
QUESTION 5. DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS ITEM 5?
-----------------------------------
6) The obvious invalidity of inequality V > I x R (4B) directly leads to the invalidity of equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B). Therefore the law of conservation of energy is not valid in this particular water-splitting electrolysis case.
QUESTION 6. DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THIS ITEM 6?
-----------------------------------
All we here in this forum are waiting for your 6 answers.
Hello George 1
You are not reading my posts at all. This is not a discussion. This is your monologue. This is an old and clumsy manipulation trick, which does not work already in XXI century when there is an internet and most people are well informed and educated.
You are obviously a scamming con man.
You started this topic on 01/28/19.
Here is your original statement / claim / bait.
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?
Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If so, what and will you share that with us ?
I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...
@ George1
1. Didn't you know that the electrolysis plus the burning of the H and O is not O.U..
2. Didn't you know that this forum has had dozens of explorations of, and thousands of pages dedicated precisely to the examining of variations of the electrolysis process in an O.U. context ?
3. The electrical energy converted to heat energy in a PURELY resistive circuit is 1 per 1.
4. This is true for ANY PURELY resistive electric circuit whether the resistor is solid or liquid.
5. An electrical circuit is NO LONGER a PURELY resistive circuit when electrolysis occurs.
You know that higher frequencies operate incandescent bulbs and heater elements to higher efficiencies, even at lower amp draws?
Quote from: Leely on December 14, 2020, 04:41:20 AM
You know that higher frequencies operate incandescent bulbs and heater elements to higher efficiencies, even at lower amp draws?
Him,George1,was remarked :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19920714&CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A#
and
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=4&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19990824&CC=US&NR=5942858A&KC=A#
but he stays in someones NIRWANA ,chronical case ::) ;) !?
Servus et Adele
Quote from: lancaIV on December 14, 2020, 04:54:30 AM
Him,George1,was remarked :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19920714&CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19920714&CC=US&NR=5130608A&KC=A#)
and
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=4&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19990824&CC=US&NR=5942858A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=3&ND=4&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19990824&CC=US&NR=5942858A&KC=A#)
but he stays in someones NIRWANA ,chronical case ::) ;) !?
Servus et Adele
Good. But if the efficiency the frequencies ran the heater elements could be used to run dc motors, tv etc, it would have been a great thing
Quote from: Leely on December 14, 2020, 05:27:59 AM
Good. But if the efficiency the frequencies ran the heater elements could be used to run dc motors, tv etc, it would have been a great thing
Sokolov,Vladimir recitating :
The present invention aims at achieving a considerably higher efficiency in feeding an electrical load as compared to the prior art, in particular in the case of ohmic loads, e.g. incandescent bulbs, but also with purely or mainly inductive or capacitive loads, which are of poor efficiency, so as to obtain an enhanced exploitation of electrical energy.
Sincerely
OCWL
I used a blocking oscillator with secondary, and found out that it ran three bulbs brightly than when I connected them directly to the battery. And they seemed to run longer than when they were connected directly to the battery. It seemed this was the same concept which Gerard Morini ran his loads. Or did he show any looped device?
This is George1 his tread,
so we should try to stay in-topic !
A. Efficiency ≤100% ≥0% input/output comparison
1.simple circuit
2.oscillation circuit
3.coil material,circuit elements reactive velocity/speed limit,specific frequency,
resonance frequency ,limit ,physical : resonance catastrophe ~ destruction ( solid to grain : ultra-sonic crusher )
Question as analog motor/generator related,AC !: conventional only AC-motor with no generator function
conventional AC-generator with no motor function
AC-motor as AC generator : over /under nominal RPM /non/net grid frequency
AC generator as motor : nominal generator RPM,as motor ?
What is "efficiency" ,nearly 100% but :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=richard+fradella&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=richard+fradella&IN=&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20121011&CC=US&NR=2012256422A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20121011&CC=US&NR=2012256422A1&KC=A1#)
0090] Generator power and efficiency with wind turbine drive is computed below, for a representative example of the present invention, at maximum shaft speed, mid-speed, and minimum usable speed, using a few simplifying approximations. Shaft speed, power, and the other variables in the computations herebelow are exemplary, and not intended as limiting the present invention in any way. This will help explain FIG. 1 and FIG. 2 configuration operation, distinctions and improvements over widely used prior art generators:
[0091] Let maximum speed equal 1000 revolutions per minute (rpm), mid-speed equal 500 rpm, and minimum speed equal 100 rpm. Also, let maximum stator current Imax=10 amperes, and nominal VDC=100 volts. Further, let Q1-Q4 power MOSFET ON resistance Rdson=0.01 ohm, inductor L1-L4 series pair winding resistance RL=0.1 ohm. Also, stator winding resistance Rs=0.15 ohm, stator voltage Vmax=100 volts at 1000 rpm, and fly-back (free-wheeling) diode D1-D8 forward drop Vf=1-volt at 10 amp. These parameters are consistent with a test prototype, according to the present invention, developed to generate power from wind turbines.
[0092] At 1000 rpm, Vmax=100 volts, so PWM duty-cycle (Ton)/(Ton+Toff) is essentially zero. Therefore, losses=Imax<2>(RL+Rs)+2 VfImax=(10 amp)<2>(0.25 ohm)+(2 volt)(10 amp), amounting to 45 watts loss. Output power=(Imax)*(Vmax)=(Imax)*(VDC)=(10 amp)(100 volts)=1000 watts. So, generator efficiency at maximum speed and maximum power is about 95% for this example of generator and integrated electronics parameters.
[0093] At 500 rpm, Imax=(10 amp)/(4)=2.5 amps; and Vmax=(100 volts)*(0.5)=50 volts. So PWM duty-cycle=1⁄2. Average pulse power generated=(Imax)*(Vmax)=(Imax)*(VDC)/2=(2.5 amp)(50 volt)=125 watts. Losses to maintain inductor current=Imax<2>(RL+Rs+Ron)=(2.5 amp)<2>(0.26 ohm)=1.6 watts. Fly-back diode losses=2 Vf*Imax/2=(0.6 v)(2.5 amp)=1.5 watts. So total losses=3.1 watts. Therefore, mid-speed generator efficiency is about 97%.
[0094] At 100 rpm, Imax=(10 amp)/(100)=0.1 amp; and Vmax=(100 volts)/(10)=10-volts. So PWM duty-cycle= 9/10. Average pulse power generated=(Imax)*(Vmax)=(Imax)*(VDC)/10=(0.1 amp)(10 v)=1 watt. Losses to maintain stator and inductor current=Imax<2>(RL+Rs+2*Rdson)=(0.1 amp)<2>(0.27 ohm)=0.0027-watt. Fly-back diode losses=(2*Vf)*(Imax)/10=(0.6 v)(0.1 a)/5=0.012 watts. So total losses=0.015-watt. Thus, generator efficiency at low speed is about 98%.
[0095] Note that, although the generator according to the present invention is self-starting (so that it need not be connected to a power source, to begin power generation), the minimum speed of the above power and efficiency computation must be reached, before the signal processing electronics will function as required. Also, MOSFET gate driver under-voltage lockout should prevent PWM drive to Q1-Q4 in FIG. 1 until the minimum voltage of approximately 8-volts is reached. Moreover, a few watts is needed from the stator windings, rectified by D9-D12, which is used to supply Power Control Electronics 5.
[0096] At the lowest usable shaft speed of 100 rpm in the above representative example, the 10-volt peak stator voltage generated would be adequate for all signal processing and PWM drive electronics, so this generator would be self-starting when turbine speed reaches 100 rpm. However, with a few watts quiescent power for the Power Control Electronics, power supplied to the load at 100 rpm would be zero until wind speed increases to above 100 rpm.
Wattoutput from nominal 1000W generator with nominal 1000 RPM :
variable speed diagram(m) variable velocity diagram(m)
Motor with nominal 1000 W and nominal 1000 RPM ?
Behaviour comparison with f.e. JNaudin push&pull
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=victor+arestov&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=victor+arestov&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20110804&CC=US&NR=2011187319A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20110804&CC=US&NR=2011187319A1&KC=A1#)
Work it out,with e-paper to paper copy and with different colours pencils=priorities something new,unexpected ? Norm :abnorm ?!
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20080812&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=7411363B2&KC=B2&ND=4# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20080812&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=7411363B2&KC=B2&ND=4#)
Description,recitation :
Efficiency=(100%)*(Mechanical power output)/(Electrical power input).
The present disclosure has evaluated numerous conventional motor-related circuits and identified new methods that realize power conservation that is approximately 150% to around 200% better than conventionally available motors.
electric motor/transformer physical -theoretical- efficiency versus industrial -warranty safety limited - motor/transformer efficiency
F.e. as reference
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=fred+miekka&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=fred+miekka&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search)
specific :
Increased power output is achieved by more completely utilizing the magnetic field of motor permanent magnets during running.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=11&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20020425&CC=US&NR=2002047346A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=11&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20020425&CC=US&NR=2002047346A1&KC=A1#)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20010710&CC=US&NR=6259347B1&KC=B1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20010710&CC=US&NR=6259347B1&KC=B1#)
The strips direct excess heat from within the interior to protrusions outside of the windings (and core) where forced air or thermally conductive potting compound extracts the heat. This technique provides for a significant reduction of weight and volume along with a substantial increase in the power density while operating at a modest elevated temperature above ambient.
2. Description of the Related Art
The power rating of present-day electrical devices, such as power transformers and motors, is limited by heat accumulation due to resistive losses in the copper windings and, in the case of power transformers, to losses from eddy currents and hysteresis within the iron or ferrite cores. It is not generally recognized that the magnetic flux within a transformer core remains approximately constant when the power output is increased. It is therefore unnecessary to increase the amount of iron or ferrite core material to increase the size of the transformer core in order to deliver more power. The trapped heat produced by the windings while operating at high power is the major limiting factor for high power transformers.
Different approaches have been attempted to try and remove heat from the core of power transformers. Some of these are the increasing of wire size to reduce resistive losses; immersion of the transformer in circulating coolant oil; air cooling of the transformer windings; increasing the operating frequency of the transformer to reduce windings; and increasing the thermal conductivity of the insulating potting compound around the transformer windings. All of these, however, impact on the mechanical size and weight of the transformer designs limiting the use of these applications. Without proper cooling the efficiency and reliability of these transformers and motors are considerably reduced.
...................
Experiment-Protocol/Report
Like Otto Sabljaric /Roberto TPU ECD "open source"-ing for peers review
https://docplayer.org/103574544-Tpu-ecd-energy-conversion-device-energkonverter-offenlegung-von-otto-sabljaric-roberto-notte.html (https://docplayer.org/103574544-Tpu-ecd-energy-conversion-device-energkonverter-offenlegung-von-otto-sabljaric-roberto-notte.html)
Only recommendation !
Sincere
OCWL
It's ok. It's just that some of us pass through the same tunnel at times to get the same thing.
Quote from: Leely on December 14, 2020, 05:27:59 AM
Good. But if the efficiency the frequencies ran the heater elements could be used to run dc motors, tv etc, it would have been a great thing
A little off topic, but worth a look: https://youtu.be/uNYUu1VL1aM (https://youtu.be/uNYUu1VL1aM)
Quote from: NdaClouDzzz on December 14, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
A little off topic, but worth a look: https://youtu.be/uNYUu1VL1aM (https://youtu.be/uNYUu1VL1aM)
and
(https://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.gif (https://overunity.com/Themes/default/images/post/xx.gif)) Re: Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGY (https://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg553901/#msg553901) «
Reply #22790 on: Today at 03:45:39 PM » Quote (https://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/22785/post/quote/553901/last_msg/553901/)
Quote
#22766 ?
Yes. similar. Also coaxial-waveguide.
In general, this topic with the Lithuanians has haunted me for many years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19941208&CC=DE&NR=4318270A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19941208&CC=DE&NR=4318270A1&KC=A1#)
D´accord ?
Sincere
OCWL
p.s.: https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=ES&NR=2265253A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20070201&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/mosaics?CC=ES&NR=2265253A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20070201&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
Quote from: NdaClouDzzz on December 14, 2020, 12:19:47 PM
A little off topic, but worth a look: https://youtu.be/uNYUu1VL1aM (https://youtu.be/uNYUu1VL1aM)
Yeah. If you see in the video where the motor was running, in my experiment, the torque of the motor did not exceed that of the battery, but the brightness and the heat from the bulb exceeded that of the battery. In other words, the motor may not have collected every power from the output. Maybe it will be of a good purpose to redesign the output rectification system, having in mind that the dc motor should run as strong as it ran directly from the input power or even stronger.
Quote from: Leely on December 15, 2020, 03:46:25 AM
Yeah. If you see in the video where the motor was running, in my experiment, the torque of the motor did not exceed that of the battery, but the brightness and the heat from the bulb exceeded that of the battery. In other words, the motor may not have collected every power from the output. Maybe it will be of a good purpose to redesign the output rectification system, having in mind that the dc motor should run as strong as it ran directly from the input power or even stronger.
I believe that what we see in the video I linked to above is what Don Smith referred to as "chasing the electrical side, it will die a heat death". At no point during that stage that he shows in the video should he be tapping it for electricity to power a load. Instead he should have forgone the second primary (black coil that he tapped to run the loads) and instead used the magnetic field from the first primary coil (parallel LC) to induce a very high voltage in the long tesla-like coil (which needs to be tuned to resonate with the primary coil), and then rectified that high voltage output to pulsating DC which then is used as the positive potential in an electrostatic induction scheme similar to that demonstrated by Don Smith to pull a much MUCH larger amount of negative charges (electrons) from earth ground than that used to run the whole system. Essentially this scheme takes the place of the hand-held device used by Don in his demo (see video's) and is what Don did in many of his systems and referred to as "magnetic resonance" (as in the primary LC). (In many of Don's devices he used multiple processes, and magnetic resonance was one of those processes. Which device/s used which processes has confused many researchers). If done properly, it is electrostatic induction on steroids and the means for all of the free-energy one could ever need. Basically you can look at it as a circuit that allows you to plug into the vast charge of the earth battery.
https://youtu.be/yLjt3y1_ceY?t=3892 (https://youtu.be/yLjt3y1_ceY?t=3892)
https://youtu.be/oyionE-sCis?t=3112 (https://youtu.be/oyionE-sCis?t=3112) (battery powered, no ground loop)
A little more on topic here: https://overunity.com/18239/the-solution/ (https://overunity.com/18239/the-solution/)
Quote from: NdaClouDzzz on December 15, 2020, 04:57:29 AM
I believe that what we see in the video I linked to above is what Don Smith referred to as "chasing the electrical side, it will die a heat death". At no point during that stage that he shows in the video should he be tapping it for electricity to power a load. Instead he should have forgone the second primary (black coil that he tapped to run the loads) and instead used the magnetic field from the first primary coil (parallel LC) to induce a very high voltage in the long tesla-like coil (which needs to be tuned to resonate with the primary coil), and then rectified that high voltage output to pulsating DC which then is used as the positive potential in an electrostatic induction scheme similar to that demonstrated by Don Smith to pull a much MUCH larger amount of negative charges (electrons) from earth ground than that used to run the whole system. Essentially this scheme takes the place of the hand-held device used by Don in his demo (see video's) and is what Don did in many of his systems and referred to as "magnetic resonance" (as in the primary LC). (In many of Don's devices he used multiple processes, and magnetic resonance was one of those processes. Which device/s used which processe/s has confused many researchers). If done properly, it is electrostatic induction on steroids and the means for all of the free-energy one could ever need. Basically you can look at it as a circuit that allows you to plug into the vast charge of the earth battery.
https://youtu.be/yLjt3y1_ceY?t=3892 (https://youtu.be/yLjt3y1_ceY?t=3892)
https://youtu.be/oyionE-sCis?t=3112 (https://youtu.be/oyionE-sCis?t=3112) (battery powered, no ground loop)
we R leving/leaving the topic,pardon-moi,George1 ! :
More than only 1 or 2 trials,a brider overview about diversity this "phenomen" related :
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=peswiki+magnetic+resonance+amplifier (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=peswiki+magnetic+resonance+amplifier)
+ Measurement Method comparison
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&ei=bpDYX92XF8ibgQbtjIDQAw&q=kanarev+pulse+power&oq=kanarev+pulse+power&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDIECAAQHlDPcVj7c2DbhQFoAHAAeACAAbgBiAGmA5IBAzAuM5gBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjdhuGO5M_tAhXITcAKHW0GADoQ4dUDCAw (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&ei=bpDYX92XF8ibgQbtjIDQAw&q=kanarev+pulse+power&oq=kanarev+pulse+power&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDDIECAAQHlDPcVj7c2DbhQFoAHAAeACAAbgBiAGmA5IBAzAuM5gBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXrAAQE&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjdhuGO5M_tAhXITcAKHW0GADoQ4dUDCAw)
!!!
http://www.rexresearch.com/mra/1mra.htm#error (http://www.rexresearch.com/mra/1mra.htm#error)
Clarification of MRA Test Conditions Institute for Advanced Studies / EarthTech International, Inc. Scott Little & H. E. Puthoff 3 February 1995
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_E._Puthoff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_E._Puthoff)
Therefore it was not a matter of MRA performance but a matter of measurement technique that disconfirmed the over-unity results.
In our original report we explained why the methods of McClain and Wooten yield erroneous results.
For the basic AC circuit theory that underlies our discussion we would recommend any of a number of excellent texts on this subject, for example "Principles of Linear Networks" by Friedland, Wing & Ash, McGraw-Hill, 1961
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=%22Principles+of+Linear+Networks%22+by+Friedland%2C+Wing+%26+Ash%2C+McGraw-Hill%2C+1961 (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=%22Principles+of+Linear+Networks%22+by+Friedland%2C+Wing+%26+Ash%2C+McGraw-Hill%2C+1961)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Kron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Kron)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diakoptics
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=%22Diakoptics+%E2%80%94+The+Piecewise+Solution+of+Large-Scale+Systems%22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor)
Gabor also researched how human beings communicate and hear; the result of his investigations was the theory of granular synthesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granular_synthesis), although Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people) composer Iannis Xenakis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iannis_Xenakis) claimed that he was actually the first inventor of this synthesis technique.
[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Gabor#cite_note-20) Gabor's work in this and related areas was foundational in the development of time–frequency analysis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time%E2%80%93frequency_analysis).
Quote from: NdaClouDzzz on December 15, 2020, 04:57:29 AM
I believe that what we see in the video I linked to above is what Don Smith referred to as "chasing the electrical side,...
You see, Don Smith had his variation, I have my variation, Babosa and leal have their variation, Nelson Rochas has his variation. You do not explain something based on only one man's opinion. Don Smith's work was purely from Tesla. That coil is Tesla coil, not Don Smith coil. Don Smith did Tesla's work, raw, unrefined. Variations today are still from Tesla.
The topic is that electrolysis of water is O.U..
I DO NOT say absolutely, that there hasn't been and cannot be any O.U..
I only say that there is No reason to believe that conventional
/ typical electrolysis is O.U. and that no evidence, NONE, has been
given by the topics originator, but instead, only the confused, misapplication of formulas.
floor
Quote from: Leely on December 15, 2020, 04:47:37 PM
You do not explain something based on only one man's opinion.
It's called economizing. You obviously got the gist, which was the intent. But thank you for the lecture ;)
Cheers
Quote from: Leely on December 15, 2020, 04:47:37 PM
You see, Don Smith had his variation, I have my variation, Babosa and leal have their variation, Nelson Rochas has his variation. You do not explain something based on only one man's opinion. Don Smith's work was purely from Tesla. That coil is Tesla coil, not Don Smith coil. Don Smith did Tesla's work, raw, unrefined. Variations today are still from Tesla.
Nikola Tesla (serbisch (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbische_Sprache)-kyrillisch (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrillisches_Alphabet#Serbisch,_Serbokroatisch_und_Montenegrinisch) Никола Тесла; * 10. Juli (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/10._Juli) 1856 (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/1856) in Smiljan (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiljan_(Kroatien)), Kroatische Militärgrenze (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kroatische_Milit%C3%A4rgrenze), Kaisertum Österreich (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaisertum_%C3%96sterreich); † 7. Januar (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/7._Januar) 1943 (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Daniel_Ruhmkorff (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Daniel_Ruhmkorff)
Heinrich Daniel Ruhmkorff (Rühmkorff) (15 January 1803 in Hanover (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover) – 20 December 1877 in Paris) was a German instrument maker who commercialised the induction coil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_coil) (often referred to as the Ruhmkorff coil.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Callan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Callan)
the " first transformer ",first DC/AC-inverter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grafton_Page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grafton_Page)
who developed innovative work with natural phenomena through direct observation and experimenting
Page developed a deep understanding of electromagnetism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism)
pursuing his own ill-fated dream of electromagnetic locomotion : we calls it "perpetuum mobile" ;)
challenging the rising scientific elitism that maintained 'the scientific do not patent' 8)
specific: Family life
"portable electrophorus,"
he experimented with electricity, demonstrated effects that no one had observed before, and improvised original apparatus that amplified these effects.
[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Grafton_Page#cite_note-6)
Scientific accomplishments
My work,not,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMR45cZbvDw&list=LLKk2eVKooIl1t6KHULYhEVQ&index=941 :P (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMR45cZbvDw&list=LLKk2eVKooIl1t6KHULYhEVQ&index=941)
Thomaner,peh,peh und noch amoi: peh ! ;D ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJ_wKSWZao :)
but information management,giving source find ,references
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%2013%3A7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans%2013%3A7)
AMPC (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:6-8&version=AMPC)Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, and honor to whom honor is due.
Application "induction coil" :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=FR&NR=667647A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19291018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=FR&NR=667647A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19291018&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
Multiple "induction coil"-s array/cascade :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19940318&CC=FR&NR=2695768A3&KC=A3# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=2&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19940318&CC=FR&NR=2695768A3&KC=A3#)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektromotorische_Kraft (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektromotorische_Kraft)
And CAUTION ! by experiments ! Life and fire danger !
Thank you for your numerous replies. As if all these replies confirm the validity my last post. So for your convenience I am giving it below again.
============================
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
============================
1) The correct equation, related to the law of conservation of energy in any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process, is
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B),
where
V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer
I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1
Z x I x t x (HHV) = output energy 2 = heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
X = output energy 3 = sum of all additional energies, which are necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc.
----------------------------------
2) It is evident from the above equality (1B) that (V x I x t) is the sum and that (I x I x R x t), (Z x I x t x (HHV)) and (X) are the addends, respectively.
----------------------------------
3) According to the rules of standard arithmetic the sum is always bigger than any of the addends (forming that same sum). Therefore the
sum (V x I x t) is bigger than the addend (I x I x R x t). Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B).
----------------------------------
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
-----------------------------------
5) The last inequality (4B) shows a severe violation of Ohm's law. (Because the correct mathematical expression for Ohm's law is V = I x R (5B), isn't it?)
-----------------------------------
6) The obvious invalidity of inequality V > I x R (4B) directly leads to the invalidity of equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B). Therefore the law of conservation of energy is not valid in this particular water-splitting electrolysis case. (Any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.)
------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
------------------------------------
DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THE TEXT ABOVE?
Thank you for your numerous replies. As if all these replies confirm the validity my last post. So for your convenience I am giving it below again.
============================
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
============================
1) The correct equation, related to the law of conservation of energy in any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process, is
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B),
where
V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer
I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1
Z x I x t x (HHV) = output energy 2 = heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
X = output energy 3 = sum of all additional energies, which are necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc.
----------------------------------
2) It is evident from the above equality (1B) that (V x I x t) is the sum and that (I x I x R x t), (Z x I x t x (HHV)) and (X) are the addends, respectively.
----------------------------------
3) According to the rules of standard arithmetic the sum is always bigger than any of the addends (forming that same sum). Therefore the
sum (V x I x t) is bigger than the addend (I x I x R x t). Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B).
----------------------------------
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
-----------------------------------
5) The last inequality (4B) shows a severe violation of Ohm's law. (Because the correct mathematical expression for Ohm's law is V = I x R (5B), isn't it?)
-----------------------------------
6) The obvious invalidity of inequality V > I x R (4B) directly leads to the invalidity of equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B). Therefore the law of conservation of energy is not valid in this particular water-splitting electrolysis case. (Any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.)
------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
------------------------------------
DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THE TEXT ABOVE?
::)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.n-tv.de/leute/Bezos-Ex-Frau-spendet-Milliardensumme-article22239996.html (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.n-tv.de/leute/Bezos-Ex-Frau-spendet-Milliardensumme-article22239996.html)
George1,offer YOU and YOURSELF ! And your solution !
Price ? Worth ? After " A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1"-topic 28 pages research and alternatives avaliation !
https://www.ideaconnection.com/inno-resources.html (https://www.ideaconnection.com/inno-resources.html) https://www.ideaconnection.com/inventions/ (https://www.ideaconnection.com/inventions/)
40 Mio. ::) to 10 Mio. ??? to 1 Mio. :P to 100 TSD. ;) currency ?
Sincere
OCWL
To lanca IV.
---------------------
Thanks a lot for your reply. We will consider carefully the links you have sent. And I will write to you in the nearest future
What is OCWL?:)
THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON STANDARD DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
===================
Let us try another THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!!!!!!!) approach.
---------------------
1) V = I x R (6-1). This is Ohm's law, which is absolutely valid for any solid, liquid and gaseous conductor. Ohm's law is the basic axiom of electric engineering and there is no doubt about its validity.
---------------------------------
2) Let us multiply both sides of equality (6-1) by (I x t), that is,
V = I x R (6-1) <=> V x (I x t) = I x R x (I x t) (6-2) <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t (6-3).
---------------------------------
3) The last equality (6-3) is the manifestation of the first Joule's law, (a) which directly derives from Ohm's law, (b) which is the second basic axiom of electric engineering and (c) which is absolutely valid for any solid, liquid and gaseous conductor. There is no doubt about the validity of the first Joule's law.
---------------------------------
4) In a standard DC water-splitting electrolysis however, while current flows through the electrolyte (which is a liquid conductor), a certain amount of hydrogen of mass m is released. The mathematical expression of this process is given by the equality m = Z x I x t (6-4).
---------------------------------
5) If the released hydrogen of mass m is burned/exploded, then an additional portion of heat H is generated. The mathematical expression, related to the generation of this additional portion of heat H, is given by the equality H = m x (HHV) = Z x I x t x (HHV) (6-5).
---------------------------------
6) Therefore in order to keep the correctness of the input/output energy ratio of the process we have to add (Z x I x t x (HHV)) to the right side of equality (6-3), that is,
V x I x t = I x I x R x t (6-3) <=> V x I x t < (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (6-6).
--------------------------------
7) Another additional portion of energy X is necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc. Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t < (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (6-7).
--------------------------------
8) Inequality (6-6) is an obvious violation of the law of conservation of energy for any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process. The same for inequality (6-7).
====================
DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!!!!!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THE TEXT ABOVE?
====================
THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON STANDARD DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
Quote from: George1 on December 17, 2020, 05:37:04 AM
To lanca IV.
---------------------
Thanks a lot for your reply. We will consider carefully the links you have sent. And I will write to you in the nearest future
What is OCWL? :)
This is called first names and father-line and mother-line family names !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_name (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_name)
Sincere
Oliver=first name Christoph = patronymics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronymic) or matronymics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matronymic). W.= father-line L.=mother-line :D ;) :)
To lanca IV.
---------------------
Hi Oliver,
Thanks a lot for your reply. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Best regards,
George
@George1
I have been sticking my nose in the books, to shore up my limited chemistry knowledge, so on.
I am continuing to do so, for now.
In doing so, I have found 1 brief mentioning (within a reasonably sound source), which
states that an efficiency of greater than 100% may theoretically be possible through
electrolysis, so on.
regards
floor
Quote from: George1 on December 17, 2020, 06:11:50 AM
To lanca IV.
---------------------
Hi Oliver,
Thanks a lot for your reply. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Best regards,
George
Good Morning !
I do not know You,George1!
You do not know me !
We are not in the position to communicate by first name !
People,who does not know each other ,ancient family internal too,Sie-zen sich - even the style ,RESPECT each !
Hyperphysics is royal dimension ! Behave alike ! Elsewhere !
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut_f%25C3%25BCr_Physik (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser-Wilhelm-Institut_f%25C3%25BCr_Physik) membership ! Title,function
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%25C3%25A9mie_Royale (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%25C3%25A9mie_Royale)
membership ! Title,function
for example https://www.lfhk.cuni.cz/Faculty/Organization-structure/Titles-in-Czech/ (https://www.lfhk.cuni.cz/Faculty/Organization-structure/Titles-in-Czech/) Dr. ?(rerum natura ?) Pavel Imris,CSc.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_rerum_natura (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_rerum_natura)
We all enter "the I "-multi-dimensional stage ,mirror ! Bridge,pons,Transponder : mens/corpus ! societas !
How we treats`(WE,we) others ,like ourself ?! Why not ? Cause ? Own TUTORIUM ?
In GERMAN :FSK https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Selbstkontrolle_der_Filmwirtschaft (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Selbstkontrolle_der_Filmwirtschaft)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Selbstkontrolle_der_Filmwirtschaft (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freiwillige_Selbstkontrolle_der_Filmwirtschaft)
Film-Komparsen : actually https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltbev%C3%B6lkerung (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltbev%C3%B6lkerung)
polites : https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Polites (https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Polites)
Schauspielrolle or acting role as humans and more " an-/organische Wesen"
Work-time : full concentration - mediativ- trial a.STILLGESTANDEN,b.STILLSITZEN,c.STILLLIEGEN
Free-time: free choice : RUEHREN/-D ! ;)
Sender Drei-Klang-/Farbe/-Mission
Empfaenger : Drei-Klang-/Farbe-/Gestaltung
Ueber Raum und Zeit
Here,in the forum,and outer ,24/365,25 ( for extremists ::) ) ALL HAS ITS CAUSE (- CAOS)
Let us a Diva and appendix ;D sing about our World https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&feature=share&v=NEpfvTdR5-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&feature=share&v=NEpfvTdR5-U)
Sweat,how she is closing her eyes and how well in Diva- 8) ( okay ;) ) Father synchronicity !
With my best regards
OCWL :)
p.s.: Collage ueber Raum und Zeit
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/jill-biden-ueber-kommentar-zu-doktortitel-er-nannte-mich-kiddo-a-39214bca-251d-435e-baa8-cc3648ca37f3 (https://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/jill-biden-ueber-kommentar-zu-doktortitel-er-nannte-mich-kiddo-a-39214bca-251d-435e-baa8-cc3648ca37f3)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_the_Apes_(1968_film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_of_the_Apes_(1968_film))
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonze (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonze)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedtime_for_Bonzo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedtime_for_Bonzo)
Ex-U.S.A. now N.W.O. : United States of Bonz , Bonzo = male and Bonza = female
Estates Confederation flagg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61lJlRR5zDL._AC_SL1200_.jpg (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61lJlRR5zDL._AC_SL1200_.jpg)
"US Bonzo Force 1" friendly wellcome with " 3 apes" flagg ! Bonztown,District Columbia formerly Washington ! New Capitale denomination !
Proudbonzo : https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/chimpanzee-with-civil-war-hat-picture-id181886990 (https://media.istockphoto.com/photos/chimpanzee-with-civil-war-hat-picture-id181886990)
The joule is the SI unit of energy.
work = force x displacement
or
joules of work (energy) = newtons of force x meters of displacement, in the direction of the applied force.
The work done in displacing an object 1 meter against a force of 1 newton = 1 joule of energy. This is also referred to as the energy expended.
A 1 kilogram mass (equal to 1000 grams) exerts , 9.8066500286389 newtons of force down
(in earth's standard gravity).
1000 grams = 9.8066500286389 newtons
and
9.8066500286389 / 1 newton = 0.10197162099999948436449906616771 grams
there fore
0.10197162129779282425700927431896 grams or approximately 102 grams exerts
1 newton of force down in standard gravity.
A mass of about 102 grams exerts 1 newton of force down in standard gravity.
If we lift a 102 gram object 1 meter, we do about 1 joule of work upon that object.
Power (watts) is equal to the joules expended per second of time.
1 joule per second = 1 watt of power
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
There is an inverse relationship between the force of gravity and the distance between the CENTERS of the two attracted objects.
If the distance is doubled, the gravitational force is decreased by a factor of 4. This is because the square of 2 is 2 x 2, which equals 4. If the distance between two objects is tripled, the force of gravity is decreased by a factor of 9. In this case, it is because the square of 3 is 3 x 3, which equals 9. This relationship is known as an inverse square relationship.
However, on the scale of a base ball in attraction to the earth, the distance between the CENTER of and the surface of, that base ball becomes insignificant within the calculation.
Similarly, a distance of 1000 meters above Earth's surface becomes insignificant in proportion to the distance from Earth's surface to its center.
There fore, a base ball weighs ALMOST exactly the same, whether it is 1 meter above, or 100 meters above the Earth's surface.
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
Coulomb force is the force due to electric charge. It is the repelling force between two electrons but also the attracting force between an electron and a proton. Both of which are due to electric charge.
Like unto a gravitational force, coulomb force also diminishes by the inverse of the square of the distance between the CENTERS of two particles (point sources).
However.....
Unlike the Earth, Sub atomic particles ( protons and electrons) are very very small and there fore, very small changes in the distance between the center of one particle and the center of another particle, causes a large change in the force present.
And unlike gravity, electric charge has two polarities.
The magnitude of the electric force between two "electrons" is directly proportional to the amount of one electric charge, q1, multiplied by the other electric charge, q2, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance r between their centers.
The fixed numerical value of the elementary charge e (of 1 electron) is 1.602176634×10−19 coulomb
and
One coulomb is the charge of 6241509074460762607.776 elementary charges (electrons)
and
The numerical value of theses two quantities are the multiplicative inverses of each other.
Like this... The coulomb is exactly 1/(1.602176634×10−19) which is approximately 6.2415090744×1018, elementary charges.
The charge of 6241509074460762607.776 protons is a + charge.
The same number of electrons has the same magnitude but opposite sign of charge.
That is − charge. 1 coulomb is 6241509074460762607.776 − charges.
The force from electric charge has other considerations as well.
example...
In calculating the force between two charged and macro world objects (for example two electrically charged plates), one must also consider the the area of the surfaces of those plates.
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
Quote from Wikipedia
"Until 2019, the International System of Standards (SI) defined the ampere as follows:
The ampere is that constant current which, if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross-section, and placed one meter apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to 2×10−7 newtons per meter of length ."
End of Wikipedia quote
That force of 2×10−7 newtons, per meter of length is the result of the magnetic field surrounding the two conductors.
That repulsion force is magnetic and is in due to, both the electric charge (coulomb charge) and the motion of the electrons along the conductor.
note...
This is not the coulomb force present as the repulsion between the electric charges.
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ......
The present (SI) quantification of the ampere (since May 2019).....
The ampere was then defined as one coulomb of charge per second. In SI, the unit of charge, the coulomb, is defined as the charge carried by one ampere during one second. However, this definition although not the SI standard until 2019, was in use within the earlier Centimeters Grams Seconds (CGS) system prior to 2019.
A current of one ampere is defined generally as one coulomb of −charge (electrons) going past a given point (generally in a conductor) per second, but strictly speaking, this could also be a current of + charge protons passing a given point in 1 second of time.
and
It seems as though there is no simple and straight forward way, to exactly correlate the force and displacement elements of mechanical work ( joule), to the process of arriving at its electrical energy equivalent ( joules).
FORCE
In SI terms the derived unit of voltage is the volt. The volt is a unit of the electric potential between two points. Voltage is a force, and is some times referred to as electromotive force.
MASS or CHARGE per unit of time
The ampere unit, definition, includes a time element (the second). It is a unit of a quantity per second. It is a current, a flow of electrons.
The Ampere is a time based unit of measurement.
ENERGY
The joule unit of measurement of energy
The Joule is not a time based unit.
The coulomb may be thought of as either, a quantity of 6.2415090744×1018 negative charges or as a quantity of 6.2415090744×1018 electrons.
Coulombs per second = amps...... Amps x volts = watts.
A force of 1 volt will move 1 coulomb of electrons through a resistance of 1 ohm in 1 second of time.
But...
In SI units, ELECTRIC WORK is stated as joules of energy per coulomb, where 1 volt = 1 joule (of work) per 1 coulomb (of charge or electrons)....
1 volt = 1 joule / 1 coulomb
where as
Electric power (1Watt) is 1 Volt of force x 1 coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor in one second.
Volt x Coulomb = Joule but Volt x Coulomb / Second = Power as Watts.
however....
There is no length of displacement specified, as is specified, in the force times displacement equation which defines mechanical work.
There is only the movement of a specific quantity of electrons (one coulomb) through a point. The coulomb unit is substituted for the displacement unit (meters).
That which is analogous to a mechanical reactive force (equal to and opposite force), is the electrical resistance (stated in units of ohms of resistance) opposing the voltage.
One coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor is one joule of work (no time element).
Force as newtons x displacement as meters = joules.
Force as volts x quantity as coulombs = joules.
One coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor in one second, is a flow RATE of 1 ampere (a current). Like unto gallons per minute. Time element.
The ampere is not a unit of some quantity of electrons, it is a unit of a rate of flow (1 coulomb of electrons per second).
mechanical.... force x displacement = joules or newtons x meters = joules electric.... force x quantity = joules or volts x coulombs = joules
mechanical..... force x displacement / time = watts or newtons x meters = joules and 1 joule / 1 seconds = 1 watt .... 1 joule per second = 1 watt electric..... force x quantity / time = watts or 1 volt x 1 coulomb = 1 joule and 1 joule / 1 second = 1 watt. But also, 1 coulomb / 1 second = 1 amperes and so 1 volt x 1 ampere = 1 watt.
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
where in we let
E = electromotive force
V = volts of electromotive force
T = time
S = time in seconds
I = electric current
C = coulomb of electrons
A = ampere of electric current, as in 1 coulomb / 1 second
and
E x I = P however, P x t indicates power with the time element canceled out (energy)....
because...
I (current) = Coulombs / Second ... this is a quantity of electrons passing some point in a conductor per second of time or a quantity of electrons passing some point / (DIVIDED BY) time or in other words an electric current, which may then be expressed in unit of amperes (A) as ....
Coulombs / Second = Amperes
and
C/S x S = C and C x V = Joules.... time was canceled out.
This is like unto 6 / 3 = 2 and 6 / 3 x 3 = 6, wherein the 3 is the time, stated in seconds.
E (electromotive force) as volts x coulombs of electrons = joules of electric energy.
There is no element of time involved in the equation. Time enters into it only once we turn to considering power and watts rather than simply, energy as joules. OK
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
quote from George 1
" V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer "
end of quote
First
V x I x t is correctly written as either E x I x T or written as V x A x T
Next
where in we let
E = electromotive force
V = volts of electromotive force
T = time
S = time in seconds
I = electric current
C = coulomb of electrons
A = ampere of electric current (as in 1 coulomb / 1 second)
quote from George 1 continued
"and which is consumed by the electrolyzer "
end of quote continued
This DOES NOT refer ONLY to the electric energy consumed / transformed by ohmic resistance into heat.
Next quote
"I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1"
end of quote
Not true...
I x I x R x t (E on RIGHT side of the equation) does not have the same value as does V x I x t = input energy on the left side of the equation.
The energy value of I x I x R x t (E on RIGHT side of the equation) (given by you as Q) should be in terms of its conversion to heat energy, minus the energy expended in electrolysis.
There will be less ohmic heating in the electrolyte because some of the energy is instead expended to cause electrolysis. Some of the I (electron current) will split the water instead of heating the water.
Fact .....
E x I x t (input) does not equal the output as the resistive heating alone, which would be evolved in the electrolyte due to purely ohmic resistance.
The rest of the equation and any calculation then become invalid.
best wishes
floor
see Jpg below
Energy expenditure within the LEDs, is due primarily to conversion
to light rather than conversion to heat.
while
Energy expenditure within the carbon resistor is directly to heat.
To Floor.
-----------------------------
You try to be a skillful manipulator, but you failed. You bombed all of us here in this forum with a cluster of absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors. These absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors in addition have practically nothing to do with our considerations. You are obviously an agent of the official science mafia. How much did they pay you? Shame on you!
To those members of this forum who are not agents of the official science mafia.he official science mafia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us get back to the first variation of our theoretical proof. It is given below again and is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.
====================
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
============================
1) The correct equation, related to the law of conservation of energy in any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process, is
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B),
where
V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer
I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1
Z x I x t x (HHV) = output energy 2 = heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
X = output energy 3 = sum of all additional energies, which are necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc.
----------------------------------
2) It is evident from the above equality (1B) that (V x I x t) is the sum and that (I x I x R x t), (Z x I x t x (HHV)) and (X) are the addends, respectively.
----------------------------------
3) According to the rules of standard arithmetic the sum is always bigger than any of the addends (forming that same sum). Therefore the
sum (V x I x t) is bigger than the addend (I x I x R x t). Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B).
----------------------------------
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
-----------------------------------
5) The last inequality (4B) shows a severe violation of Ohm's law. (Because the correct mathematical expression for Ohm's law is V = I x R (5B).)
-----------------------------------
6) The obvious invalidity of inequality V > I x R (4B) directly leads to the invalidity of equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B). Therefore the law of conservation of energy is not valid in this particular water-splitting electrolysis case. (Any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.)
------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
------------------------------------
DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THE TEXT ABOVE?
====================
Simply answer my last question.
To those members of this forum who are not agents of the official science mafia.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us get back to the first variation of our theoretical proof. It is given below again and is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.
====================
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
============================
1) The correct equation, related to the law of conservation of energy in any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process, is
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B),
where
V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer
I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1
Z x I x t x (HHV) = output energy 2 = heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
X = output energy 3 = sum of all additional energies, which are necessary (a) for splitting of water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms, (b) for collateral chemical reactions due to the impurity of the electrolyte, (c) for forming of bubbles etc., etc.
----------------------------------
2) It is evident from the above equality (1B) that (V x I x t) is the sum and that (I x I x R x t), (Z x I x t x (HHV)) and (X) are the addends, respectively.
----------------------------------
3) According to the rules of standard arithmetic the sum is always bigger than any of the addends (forming that same sum). Therefore the
sum (V x I x t) is bigger than the addend (I x I x R x t). Therefore we can write down the inequality V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B).
----------------------------------
4) Now let us divide both sides of inequality (2B) by (I x t), that is,
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2B) < = >
< = > (V x I x t)/(I x t) > (I x I x R x t)/(I x t) (3B) < = >
< = > V > I x R (4B).
-----------------------------------
5) The last inequality (4B) shows a severe violation of Ohm's law. (Because the correct mathematical expression for Ohm's law is V = I x R (5B).)
-----------------------------------
6) The obvious invalidity of inequality V > I x R (4B) directly leads to the invalidity of equality V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) + (X) (1B). Therefore the law of conservation of energy is not valid in this particular water-splitting electrolysis case. (Any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.)
------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. THIS DISCUSSION IS FOCUSED SOLELY AND ONLY ON DC WATER-SPLITTING ELECTROLYSIS! AND ON NOTHING ELSE!
------------------------------------
DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST THE TEXT ABOVE?
====================
Simply answer my last question.
To lancaIV.
------------------------
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for your reply.
1) Ok, let us keep the related distance. You are right, we do not know each other.
2) But you are sending very interesting links. Please give me some time to consider them carefully.
George
Quote from: George1 on December 21, 2020, 09:54:20 AM
To Floor.
-----------------------------
You try to be a skillful manipulator, but you failed. You bombed all of us here in this forum with a cluster of absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors. These absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors in addition have practically nothing to do with our considerations. You are obviously an agent of the official science mafia. How much did they pay you? Shame on you!
Bull S--t.
. Didn't you know that the electrolysis plus the burning of the H and O is not O.U..
2. Didn't you know that this forum has had dozens of explorations of, and thousands of pages dedicated precisely to the examining of variations of the electrolysis process in an O.U. context ?
3. The electrical energy converted to heat energy in a PURELY resistive circuit is 1 per 1.
4. This is true for ANY PURELY resistive electric circuit whether the resistor is solid or liquid.
5. An electrical circuit is NO LONGER a PURELY resistive circuit when electrolysis occurs.
What next ?
You going to sell us on the phallicy that an electrically energized coil is O.U. because the magnetic field is in addition to the heat produced ?
Or that in a wire coil with an AC current, total resistance is only the ohmic and doesn't include impedance ?
Me thinkest thow knowest not the shit where of ye speak .....
I cry B.S. on you.
You are obviously a scamming con man.
You started this topic on 01/28/19.
Here is your original statement / claim / bait.
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?
Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If so, what and will you share that with us ?
I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...
The topic is that electrolysis of water is O.U..
I DO NOT say absolutely, that there hasn't been and cannot be O.U..
I only say that there is No reason to believe that conventional
/ typical electrolysis is O.U. and that no evidence, NONE, has been
given by the topics originator, but instead, only the confused, misapplication of formulas.
The joule is the SI unit of energy.
work = force x displacement
or
joules of work (energy) = newtons of force x meters of displacement, in the direction of the applied force.
The work done in displacing an object 1 meter against a force of 1 newton = 1 joule of energy. This is also referred to as the energy expended.
A 1 kilogram mass (equal to 1000 grams) exerts , 9.8066500286389 newtons of force down
(in earth's standard gravity).
1000 grams = 9.8066500286389 newtons
and
9.8066500286389 / 1 newton = 0.10197162099999948436449906616771 grams
there fore
0.10197162129779282425700927431896 grams or approximately 102 grams exerts
1 newton of force down in standard gravity.
A mass of about 102 grams exerts 1 newton of force down in standard gravity.
If we lift a 102 gram object 1 meter, we do about 1 joule of work upon that object.
Power (watts) is equal to the joules expended per second of time.
1 joule per second = 1 watt of power
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
There is an inverse relationship between the force of gravity and the distance between the CENTERS of the two attracted objects.
If the distance is doubled, the gravitational force is decreased by a factor of 4. This is because the square of 2 is 2 x 2, which equals 4. If the distance between two objects is tripled, the force of gravity is decreased by a factor of 9. In this case, it is because the square of 3 is 3 x 3, which equals 9. This relationship is known as an inverse square relationship.
However, on the scale of a base ball in attraction to the earth, the distance between the CENTER of and the surface of, that base ball becomes insignificant within the calculation.
Similarly, a distance of 1000 meters above Earth's surface becomes insignificant in proportion to the distance from Earth's surface to its center.
There fore, a base ball weighs ALMOST exactly the same, whether it is 1 meter above, or 100 meters above the Earth's surface.
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
Coulomb force is the force due to electric charge. It is the repelling force between two electrons but also the attracting force between an electron and a proton. Both of which are due to electric charge.
Like unto a gravitational force, coulomb force also diminishes by the inverse of the square of the distance between the CENTERS of two particles (point sources).
However.....
Unlike the Earth, Sub atomic particles ( protons and electrons) are very very small and there fore, very small changes in the distance between the center of one particle and the center of another particle, causes a large change in the force present.
And unlike gravity, electric charge has two polarities.
The magnitude of the electric force between two "electrons" is directly proportional to the amount of one electric charge, q1, multiplied by the other electric charge, q2, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance r between their centers.
The fixed numerical value of the elementary charge e (of 1 electron) is 1.602176634×10^−19 coulomb
and
One coulomb is the charge of 6241509074460762607.776 elementary charges (electrons)
and
The numerical value of theses two quantities are the multiplicative inverses of each other.
Like this... The coulomb is exactly 1/(1.602176634×10^−19) which is approximately 6.2415090744×10^18, elementary charges.
The charge of 6241509074460762607.776 protons is a + charge.
The same number of electrons has the same magnitude but opposite sign of charge.
That is − charge. 1 coulomb is 6241509074460762607.776 − charges.
The force from electric charge has other considerations as well.
example...
In calculating the force between two charged and macro world objects (for example two electrically charged plates), one must also consider the the area of the surfaces of those plates.
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
Quote from Wikipedia
"Until 2019, the International System of Standards (SI) defined the ampere as follows:
The ampere is that constant current which, if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross-section, and placed one meter apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to 2×10^−7 newtons per meter of length ."
End of Wikipedia quote
That force of 2×10^−7 newtons, per meter of length is the result of the magnetic field surrounding the two conductors.
That repulsion force is magnetic and is in due to, both the electric charge (coulomb charge) and the motion of the electrons along the conductor.
note...
This is not the coulomb force present as the repulsion between the electric charges.
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ......
The present (SI) quantification of the ampere (since May 2019).....
The ampere was then defined as one coulomb of charge per second. In SI, the unit of charge, the coulomb, is defined as the charge carried by one ampere during one second. However, this definition although not the SI standard until 2019, was in use within the earlier Centimeters Grams Seconds (CGS) system prior to 2019.
A current of one ampere is defined generally as one coulomb of −charge (electrons) going past a given point (generally in a conductor) per second, but strictly speaking, this could also be a current of + charge protons passing a given point in 1 second of time.
and
It seems as though there is no simple and straight forward way, to exactly correlate the force and displacement elements of mechanical work ( joule), to the process of arriving at its electrical energy equivalent ( joules).
FORCE
In SI terms the derived unit of voltage is the volt. The volt is a unit of the electric potential between two points. Voltage is a force, and is some times referred to as electromotive force.
MASS or CHARGE per unit of time
The ampere unit, definition, includes a time element (the second). It is a unit of a quantity per second. It is a current, a flow of electrons.
The Ampere is a time based unit of measurement.
ENERGY
The joule unit of measurement of energy
The Joule is not a time based unit.
The coulomb may be thought of as either, a quantity of 6.2415090744×10^18 negative charges or as a quantity of 6.2415090744×10^18 electrons.
Coulombs per second = amps...... Amps x volts = watts.
A force of 1 volt will move 1 coulomb of electrons through a resistance of 1 ohm in 1 second of time.
But...
In SI units, ELECTRIC WORK is stated as joules of energy per coulomb, where 1 volt = 1 joule (of work) per 1 coulomb (of charge or electrons)....
1 volt = 1 joule / 1 coulomb
where as
Electric power (1Watt) is 1 Volt of force x 1 coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor in one second.
Volt x Coulomb = Joule but Volt x Coulomb / Second = Power as Watts.
however....
There is no length of displacement specified, as is specified, in the force times displacement equation which defines mechanical work.
There is only the movement of a specific quantity of electrons (one coulomb) through a point. The coulomb unit is substituted for the displacement unit (meters).
That which is analogous to a mechanical reactive force (equal to and opposite force), is the electrical resistance (stated in units of ohms of resistance) opposing the voltage.
One coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor is one joule of work (no time element).
Force as newtons x displacement as meters = joules.
Force as volts x quantity as coulombs = joules.
One coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor in one second, is a flow RATE of 1 ampere (a current). Like unto gallons per minute. Time element.
The ampere is not a unit of some quantity of electrons, it is a unit of a rate of flow (1 coulomb of electrons per second).
mechanical.... force x displacement = joules or newtons x meters = joules electric.... force x quantity = joules or volts x coulombs = joules
mechanical..... force x displacement / time = watts or newtons x meters = joules and 1 joule / 1 seconds = 1 watt .... 1 joule per second = 1 watt electric..... force x quantity / time = watts or 1 volt x 1 coulomb = 1 joule and 1 joule / 1 second = 1 watt. But also, 1 coulomb / 1 second = 1 amperes and so 1 volt x 1 ampere = 1 watt.
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
.... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
where in we let
E = electromotive force
V = volts of electromotive force
T = time
S = time in seconds
I = electric current
C = coulomb of electrons
A = ampere of electric current, as in 1 coulomb / 1 second
and
E x I = P however, P x t indicates power with the time element canceled out (energy)....
because...
I (current) = Coulombs / Second ... this is a quantity of electrons passing some point in a conductor per second of time or a quantity of electrons passing some point / (DIVIDED BY) time or in other words an electric current, which may then be expressed in unit of amperes (A) as ....
Coulombs / Second = Amperes
and
C/S x S = C and C x V = Joules.... time was canceled out.
This is like unto 6 / 3 = 2 and 6 / 3 x 3 = 6, wherein the 3 is the time, stated in seconds.
E (electromotive force) as volts x coulombs of electrons = joules of electric energy.
There is no element of time involved in the equation. Time enters into it only once we turn to considering power and watts rather than simply, energy as joules. OK
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
quote from George 1
" V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer "
end of quote
First
V x I x t is correctly written as either E x I x T or written as V x A x T
Next
where in we let
E = electromotive force
V = volts of electromotive force
T = time
S = time in seconds
I = electric current
C = coulomb of electrons
A = ampere of electric current (as in 1 coulomb / 1 second)
quote from George 1 continued
"and which is consumed by the electrolyzer "
end of quote continued
This DOES NOT refer ONLY to the electric energy consumed / transformed by ohmic resistance into heat.
Next quote
"I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1"
end of quote
Not true...
I x I x R x t (E on RIGHT side of the equation) does not have the same value as does V x I x t = input energy on the left side of the equation.
The energy value of I x I x R x t (E on RIGHT side of the equation) (given by you as Q) should be in terms of its conversion to heat energy, minus the energy expended in electrolysis.
There will be less ohmic heating in the electrolyte because some of the energy is instead expended to cause electrolysis. Some of the I (electron current) will split the water instead of heating the water.
Fact .....
E x I x t (input) does not equal the output as the resistive heating alone, which would be evolved in the electrolyte due to purely ohmic resistance.
The rest of the equation and any calculation then become invalid.
Dear Floor,
You want to convince all of us here in this forum that if 6 = 1 + 2 + 3, then 6 = 1. Congratulations! Fantastic achievement! You are a founder of an entirely new and revolutionary branch of mathematics! Take your medicine!:) Triple dose!:)
Quote from: George1 on December 23, 2020, 07:26:09 AM
Dear Floor,
You want to convince all of us here in this forum that if 6 = 1 + 2 + 3, then 6 = 1. Congratulations! Fantastic achievement! You are a founder of an entirely new and revolutionary branch of mathematics! Take your medicine!:) Triple dose!:)
@George1
If you see a math error, just point it out. I don't see one, at least not on my part.
and
no not 6 = 1 + 2 + 3, then 6 = 1
but
6 / 3 = 2 and 6 / 3 x 3 = 6 very well then, if this will clarify it for you
(6 / 3) = 2 and (6 / 3) x 3 = 6
In most circumstances energy is "conserved". This is what makes it seem (to some) that
any one looking for O.U. processes is nutty.
Looking for O.U. has been for me, a path of learning. To my mind, seeking O.U. is not
the exploration of how to get something from nothing, but rather the exploration of how
we might get energy from new and / or possibly little understood or even unknown
sources or methods.
Have we missed something ? Perhaps that the ordinary electrolysis of water is O.U. ?
If we have missed it, you for one, certainly have not demonstrated how.
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
Analogous to water through a multi-path pipe system, electric current divides between
any 2 or more paths, in proportion to the resistance to its flow along those paths.
In the electrolysis process, the electric current's path is divided (within the electrolyte)
into paths where in some of the energy is expended as heat via conventional
electrical resistance and some of the energy is expended in splitting the water molecules.
Like unto the water and the water pipe analogy, the total current entering those paths, is
equal to the total current exiting them.
In this case, the total energy in and out are equal as well. But that energy has been
transformed into other than a purely electromagnetic form.
E or I alone, neither amounts to power. But if there is a current flowing it is because an
electric potential has been realized. Where there exists an electric potential, current will flow
when the electrical resistance is low enough (E / I x R).
Your, cut and past repetition of formulas (whether chemical or electrical) does not equate to
an understanding of those formulas. If you have misunderstood them, just get it straight
and move forward. That's all.
If you make a few pennys from the views here, I don't begruge that. But the forum is not
a venue for / of con men selling false free energy devices.
We are talking solely and only about standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process.
---------------------------------------------------
Whatever experiments to do you actually measure constant voltage V, constant direct current I, constant Ohmic resistance R and time t. The real experimental values of V, I, R and t would give three simple mathematical expressions:
1) V = I x R. This is Ohm's law.
2) V x I x t = I x I x R x t. This is the first Joule's law.
3) V x I x t < (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)). This is the OU property of any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process.
----------------------------------------------------
Simple, clear and understandable. And anyone, who tries to reject this simple obvious truth, is either a clumsy and unskillful manipulator and/or a person, who has some severe mental problems.
George1 doesn't know basic electrity very well.
So for anyone interested in learning the basic electricity required to understand
the energy transfer and transformation involved in the dc electrolysis of pure water...
In addition to ohm's law as
E = I x R voltage = Amperage x Resistance
I x R = E
E / I = R
E / R = I
there is next also ......
Kirchhoff's first law
For any junction in an electric circuit, the sum of currents entering that junction is equal to the sum of currents exiting that junction.
Kirchhoff's second law
The sum of the electric potential (voltage) drops around any closed circuit is equal to zero.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
@ All readers
VERY NICE... complete course !
Basic electricty books. I have these in my own library (hard copies), classics / awsome.
https://archive.org/details/BasicElectricityVol1ToVol5VanValkenburgh/mode/2up
Best wishes
floor
The text below can be found in many of our previous posts. Anyway let us repeat it again for those, who understand simple things with great difficulty.
-----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.
Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
-----------------------------
Therefore the text above unambiguously shows that it is a matter of exact experimental data which is in perfect accordance with theory. Because I cannot imagine that three highly qualified experts in physics (yet strongly separated by time, space and nationality) would have made one and same mistake three times in a row. This is impossible!"
-----------------------------
IF YOU REJECT THE VALIDITY OF THE TEXT ABOVE, THEN YOU REALLY HAVE SOME MENTAL PROBLEMS! AND YOU HAVE TO SEE YOUR DOCTOR!
Some careful analysis unambiguously show that the agents, who are in the pay of the official science mafia in this forum, use 6 clumsy and unskillful manipulation methods for rejecting of obvious truths. And these 6 methods are as follows.
-----------------------------------------
1) Simulation of ignorance and/or lack of understanding.
2) Distorting of our words.
3) Writing of long texts, full of semi-truths, absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical/mathematical errors.
4) Writing of long texts, which have nothing to do with the discussed topic.
5) Direct ridiculous rejecting of obvious truths by using phrases like " This is impossible, because it is impossible and that's all!" and other similar howlers.
6) Various combinations of the above five,
-----------------------------------------
Our appeal is: Please do not fall under the influence of this forum's clumsy manipulators! These unworthy people are not seeking for the truth! They simply want to earn some money!
@ George1
Good morning, but no over unity here.
@ All readers
Interesting subject and topic and I think a good /educational read.
Particularly the input from those, other than the topics originator (George1).
best
wishes
floor
Read very, very, very carefully again our last post of January 03, 2021, 03:48:09 PM.
-------------------------------------------------
Here is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution:
Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
-------------------------------------------------
It is absolutely evident from Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution (a) that each second the electrolyte (the liquid conductor) consumes 31.86 J of electric energy and (b) that each second the electrolyte (the liquid conductor) generates 31.86 J of Joule's heat. Do you accept this simple obvious truth? Do you accept Prof. S. L. Srivastava's (and his two Russian colleagues' some 40 years ago) solution? Yes or no?
@ George1
The heat and gasses evolved in the electrochemical reactions due to the sulfuric acid
are not a process of simply the electrolysis of water.
Why would you or anyone else assume that the electrolysis of a sulfuric acid solution gives,
the same results as, or is the same process as is the electrolysis of pure water ?
If ones goal is the production hydrogen gas, then it is true that this process can be
more "efficient" at hydrogen production than is that of the electrolysis of pure water.
But it still remains that the process is no more so a COP >1 or over unity, than is the
burning of a piece of wood.
I get it now! That must be your secret / unrevealed, free energy for sale device. You're looking
for an investor to buy over unity fire wood. Very clever! Oops did I just reveal the secret ?
Sorry.
floor
To Floor.
-------------------
1) You do not answer my question, you old cheater!:) You are talking again about things that has nothing to do with the topic discussed. Your big mafia masters will not pay you your month salary. You keep failing in your attempts to manipulate the audience and to reject obvious facts.
2) I am asking again my question. The question is: Do you accept Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no?
Quote from: George1 on January 05, 2021, 07:13:19 AM
To Floor.
-------------------
1) You do not answer my question, you old cheater!:) You are talking again about things that has nothing to do with the topic discussed. Your big mafia masters will not pay you your month salary. You keep failing in your attempts to manipulate the audience and to reject obvious facts.
2) I am asking again my question. The question is: Do you accept Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no?
"1 You do not answer my question, you old cheater!:) "
George1, it is your topic, and you are the one that bears the responsibility of answering peoples questions.
There are I think perhaps a dozen times, questions have been asked of you in the topic and to which you have not responded. Instead you have ignored them and / or changed the subject of the discussion. As you have done just now by specifying sulfuric acid solution as the electrolyte, then once again attacking and accusing a poster.
"You are talking again about things that has nothing to do with the topic discussed. "
Lie ! The things which I have posted are directly and exactly relevant to the subject matter.
"Your big mafia masters will not pay you your month salary. "
More made up fantasy, lies and empty accusations on your part.
There are no "big mafia masters" where I live.
In the U.S, we handle this S--t when it pops up !
I think You must have watched too many American movies,
belived too much internet B.S..
If there is a disinformation agent in this topic, paid or strong armed or otherwise....
it is you bud.
"You keep failing in your attempts to manipulate the audience and to reject obvious facts."
Just more B.S. on your part. Information and some simple facts of the subject on my part .
"2) I am asking again my question. The question is: Do you accept Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no?"
Simply No not as you have misunderstood and misrepresented them.
If you place other chemicals (acidic or basic) and therefore other chemical reactions into the electrolyte you change the conditions of the electrolysis.
These will change the electrical conductivity / resistance of electrolyte and therefore also the
current flowing and the power consumption during the electrolysis. Also change the heat generated by ohmic / conventional resistance. Other conditions and outcomes as well.
To Floor.
--------------------------
You are obviously a stubborn cheater and manipulator, you old guy!:)
--------------------------
I am asking you again: Do you have any THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution?
YES OR NO?
@George1
What is the goal of your topic here ?
floor
To Floor.
-------------------------
You pretend to be an expert in theoretical and applied physics. I want you personally to answer a simple question. And this simple question is: Do you have any THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no?
(I want to stress upon the fact that your answer must be either "Yes" or "No". Simple and clear.)
Thank you George1
I am flattered my arguments have so impressed you..
BUT NO
There is not a single instance wherein, I have claimed,
any where in the entire Over Unity forum
to be an expert in theoretical and applied physics.
If I appear to have shown so very brightly, rest assured, this is only the
contrast between myself and your own dimness.
To Floor.
---------------------------------------
It is absolutely evident for all members of this forum that you have no reasonable arguments against the validity of our water-splitting electrolysis OU concept. Your masters will not pay you your month salary and they may even beat you because you keep failing in your desperate and clumsy attempts to reject obvious truths.
---------------------------------------
It is absolutely evident also that all members of this forum are severely tired of your dully repetitive, amateur and clumsy manipulation tricks. You have to change your repertoire. Use more creative and more variegated manipulation methods. Because you have become already a laughing-stock.
----------------------------------------
Read carefully the text below. I hope you will understand it at once. But if not, then I will explain it again as you tend to understand simple things with great difficulty.
-----------------------------------------
1) I am asking you a question: Are you a human being? Yes or no?
Your answer will be "Yes" for sure.
-----------------------------------------
2) I am asking you a question: Are you a donkey? Yes or no?
Your answer will be "No" for sure.
-----------------------------------------
Did you understand well the text above? Shall I repeat it again?
-----------------------------------------
Let us go on with our story.
-----------------------------------------
3) I am asking you a question: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no?
What is your answer? Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!!! Can't you understand this simple requirement???!!!
@George1
I have answered your question perhaps 5 times all ready.
Check this for your self.
Read your own topic... Idiot!
Additionally, as a gesture of GOOD WILL to you and your topic
some very knowledgeable in addition to others as EXPERTS in chemistry and / or
other fields of science have responded to your question.
Have some appreciation BECAUSE, while bad critics are a dime a dozen,
believe it or not, a GOOD critic is hard to come by.
All those who have answered, have answered in a resounding and qualified NO !
I have been participating in this topic because of the benefit I receive from THEIR
input. I have been using your topic to gain understanding in a field in which I
wish to increase my knowledge. Get it ? Were it not for input from other posters here,
your topic was dead long ago... Let it go, move forward. OR...
P_ss off
George
QuoteDear colleagues,
My name is George Sen. I am a member of a team of inventors-enthusiasts. Please have a look at the link
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
The link above describes a simple electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
What do you think about this electric heater? What is your opinion?
Looking forward to your answer.
That is a very interesting idea and I have been doing some similar conduction experiments with respect to the two capacitor paradox.
You are correct and my experiments proved it doesn't matter what kind of resistance is in the circuit. It can be a simple copper conductor, ohmic resistor or water resistor and the dissipation of energy will be identical. The kind of resistance has no bearing on the dissipation of energy which is in line with conventional electrical theory.
There is some interesting logic to be found in what you propose.
The free electrons in the electrical circuit which produced the electron current is finite. That is, by Faradays law all the electrons which left the (-) negative terminal must complete the circuit and return to the (+) positive terminal of the source. This is also the premise of what is known as Kirchhoff's laws saying we cannot gain or lose anything in the closed circuit. No electrons can be lost or gained to the electrolyte and energy/mass are conserved. However another law also applies which states the electron current must dissipate all it's energy as heat in the load resistance or the source resistance for energy to be conserved.
Thus we seem to have a contradiction where one law claims X must happen and another law which claims Y must happen but X-Y contradict one another.
Very interesting, nice catch.
To Floor.
---------------------------------------------
Everybody here in this forum can see that you lose your psychic balance. Your masters will beat you!:)
---------------------------------------------
1) Answer the question: Are you a human being? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
2) Answer the question: Are you a donkey? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
3) Answer the question: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
---------------------------------------------
4) A piece of ABSOLUTELY FREE technology breakthrogh information! And no public recognition within a period of many months! Absurd and ridiculous discussions within a period of many months for clarifying of simple obvious truths! This is a comedy! Tell your masters that our third piece of EXPERIMENTALLY PROVED technology breakthrough, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery, costs already $100,000,000! And each month this price will be increased with $10,000,000, that is, after one month the price will be $110,000,000, after two months the price will be $120,000,000, etc.
To Floor.
------------------------------
Answer the question: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
Looking forward to your answer.
@George1
Do you think the truth matters ?
Accept some responsibility for your self.
https://www.change.org/p/%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F-%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2/u/28283558 (https://www.change.org/p/%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F-%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2/u/28283558)
support, help the animals ...
To Floor
----------------------------
Hi Floor,
1) Your last post is much more moderate and much lesser charged with negative emotions.:) Thank you for it.
2) Yes, truth matters.
3) You wrote: "Accept some responsibility for your self." I can't understand this. What do you mean exactly?
4) Still no answer? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no". (Nobody presses you to answer immediately. Think over and over again and consider over and over again Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solved problem.)
To kolbacict.
----------------------------------
Yes, this is disgusting! Any idea how to help in some real and effective manner?
Quote from: George1 on January 13, 2021, 09:48:58 AM
To Floor
----------------------------
Hi Floor,
1) Your last post is much more moderate and much lesser charged with negative emotions.:) Thank you for it.
2) Yes, truth matters.
3) You wrote: "Accept some responsibility for your self." I can't understand this. What do you mean exactly?
4) Still no answer? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no". (Nobody presses you to answer immediately. Think over and over again and consider over and over again Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solved problem.)
I don't particularly enjoy and neither do I make it a point to bust up others peoples dreams.
But scamming on the O.U. forum will have it's own consequences.
Take a look George my friend, at some of your own expressions of
"negative emotions"
below.....
Georg1 quotes
"Dear colleagues,
My name is George Sen,"
Quote from: F6FLT on February 03, 2019, 05:25:59 AM
The second case is false. You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat.
If overunity were so childish, it would have been known for a long time! We'll have to be much smarter.
Quote from: George1 on February 03, 2019, 11:04:05 AM
To F6FLT.
--------------
You greatly surprise me, my friend! You are an expert in mechanics as well as in electric engineering! (And may be in any other field of technology?)
You have written: "
You have simply forgotten the oxidation-reduction potentials! The potential difference that will result in heating is therefore less than the one used. This means in other words that even for the same current, the energy used for producing hydrogen is not used to heat."
There is no sense in this composition of words. This is for example something like the following sentence: " The Moon is black and it walks around the green tree." Grammatically correct, but absurd.
Really George, no sense ?
Quote from: George1 on March 15, 2019, 10:01:57 AM
To F6FLT.
--------------
Hi F6FLT.
Thank you for your reply.
I haven't read even one reasonable comment of yours yet. Please study EXTREMELY carefully Gyula's comments, which are brilliant examples of expert analysis and high qualification.
Really not reasonable ?
Quote from: George1 on May 06, 2019, 05:53:28 AM
Hi tinu,
You are trying to manipulate all of us here in this forum -- you are trying to convince us that black is white. But you are not a skillful manipulator. You have to read still more books related to the art of manipulation. I will not argue with you.
George
Manipulator ?
Sorry George1, but NO, you don't speak for "all of us here in this forum".
This is just you trying to create an us and them dichotomy.. NO BURNO.
Baaad George1.
Some of your lies George1 called out @
https://overunity.com/18134/a-simple-electric-heater-which-has-efficiency-greater-than-1/msg534077/#msg534077
Quote from: George1 on May 09, 2019, 05:11:06 AM
Hi tinu,
Where are you, old swindler? ;) Will you answer my 6 questions? Because you have to answer still more questions except these 6 ones.
Regards,
George
Quote from: George1 on May 09, 2019, 08:52:46 AM
Hi tinu,
I am already absolutely clear on the fact that you are (a) either an arrogant and ambitious ignoramus, whose expertise in electric engineering is equal to zero, or (b) an unskillful and clumsy manipulator, who is an agent of the BIG OIL (or other similar organization) and who tries to convince us that black is white. I will not waste my time any more (as well as the time of my team's colleagues) to answer your nonsense posts.
George
Quote from: George1 on May 14, 2019, 10:49:33 AM
tinu,
You are a pathological hater. You need a doctor. You have a very serious problem. You will be punished by your masters from the BIG OIL.
Quote from: George1 on December 06, 2020, 10:07:07 AM
To Floor.
-------------------------
Dear Floor,
You demonstrate again a shocking lack of understanding of basic terms and axioms of electric engineering. For example how could you even dare to compare directly and quantitatively HEAT and MAGNETIC FIELD? HEAT is measured in Joules (J) and INTENSITY(!!!!) OF MAGNETIC FIELD (not magnetic field itself, but only one of its properties!) is measured in Tesla (T). Do you know what is the difference between Tesla (T) and Joule (J)? How to discuss the matter with "expert" like you? Please firstly educate seriously yourself and just then take part in this discussion!
Quote from: George1 on December 12, 2020, 09:43:16 AM
To Floor.
===================
You are not reading my posts at all. This is not a discussion. This is your monologue. This is an old and clumsy manipulation trick, which does not work already in XXI century when there is an internet and most people are well informed and educated. You are obviously an agent of the official science mafia.
===================
I strongly believe and hope that the last sentence is not true. Let us check again (and for the last time) whether you are an agent of the official science mafia or not. Please read carefully the text below and answer 6 simple theoretical questions.
-----------------------------------
Questions omitted by floor .................
-----------------------------------
All we here in this forum are waiting for your 6 answers.
Speaking for the entire community again George1?
Quote from: George1 on December 21, 2020, 09:54:20 AM
To Floor.
-----------------------------
You try to be a skillful manipulator, but you failed. You bombed all of us here in this forum with a cluster of absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors. These absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors in addition have practically nothing to do with our considerations. You are obviously an agent of the official science mafia. How much did they pay you? Shame on you!
Quote from: George1 on December 23, 2020, 07:26:09 AM
Dear Floor,
You want to convince all of us here in this forum that if 6 = 1 + 2 + 3, then 6 = 1. Congratulations! Fantastic achievement! You are a founder of an entirely new and revolutionary branch of mathematics! Take your medicine!:) Triple dose!:)
END of George1 quotes
Reign it in.
Take it in.
No body here is trying to cause you harm or mess with you. OK ?
peace
out
floor
To Floor.
--------------------------
Thank you for your reply.
Welcome to our team! We need people of strong character like you! Would you join our team? (Not pressing, only suggesting! :))
Anyway there is still no answer to our question: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
Keep waiting for your answer -- only one word -- either "yes" or "no".
Quote from: George1 on January 18, 2021, 08:20:59 AM
To Floor.
--------------------------
Thank you for your reply.
Welcome to our team! We need people of strong character like you! Would you join our team? (Not pressing, only suggesting! :))
Golly gee wiz! Strong character, wow ! Do you really think so ?
Thank you my friend and best buddy for life !
Of course I will join !
Together we will do great things. We will change the world !
How much does it pay ?
QuoteWelcome to our team!
I also want to. :)
p.s.
But I wonder if it is possible to decompose water in a cell only by reactive power?
This is when the current and voltage are out of phase. reactive power costs nothing to us.
Even the electric meter does not take it into account.
To Floor.
------------------------------
We are not talking about money! You are a friend! :)
To kolbacict.
-----------------------------
1) You are welcome to join our team too! :) Let us increase the number of people who are full of enthusiasm, and who are ready to change the world (as Floor said it well in his last post).
2) About your suggestion for decomposing of water in a cell only by reactive power. Sounds very interesting! Do you have some primary idea how/where to start from? Any theoretical/experimental research related to this topic?
Anyway let us remind again that there is still no answer to our question: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
Keep waiting for your answer -- only one word -- either "yes" or "no".
@George1
Get well soon.
floor
To Floor.
----------------------
Hi Floor,
Thank you for your reply. It's a pleasure to correspond with you.
Any non-standard "crazy" ideas? :) The latter are always welcome! :)
Regards,
George
There is still no answer to our question: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no". Simple and clear.
@George1
Why do you continue to seek to perpetuate this lie ?
Have you been diagnosed with a narcissistic disorder ?
You don't really believe the simple electrolysis of water is over unity do you ?
You are lying to say so, aren't you ?
Please just accept that this over unity premise you have presented is incorrect.
To Floor.
-----------------------------
Say either "yes" or "no"! Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"! All members of this forum are waiting for your answer!
@George1
It is appearant to all who read here, that you do not understand and neither
are you seeking to understand electrolysis.
Neither are you actually looking for a free energy device.
Why do you continue to seek to perpetuate this lie ?
Have you been diagnosed with a narcissistic disorder ?
You don't really believe the simple electrolysis of water is over unity do you ?
You are lying to say so, aren't you ?
Please just accept that this over unity premise you have presented is incorrect.
Stop trying to pollute the forum with your corrupt agenda.
We await your admission, of the the honest facts.
Or are you just another cheap scammer / disinformation agent ?
To Floor.
----------------------------------
All members of this forum clearly see that you are a cheater and an agent of the official science mafia. You are an unworthy person! How much do they pay to you? Shame on you!
-----------------------------------
ANSWER MY QUESTION: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"! Are you illiterate?
And you George, it is apparent, are some just a sleazy creep ? Is this right ?
First you flatter and butter people up with disingenuous praises. Yuk !
Then turn upon and attack the many who have demonstrated your baseless idea and claim
to be flawed.
None of us have believed you meant what you have been saying, from the very start.
Most immediately disregarded you and "your idea".
(By the way, its not YOUR idea. It's an idea which is practically as old as is electrolysis itself.
This doesn't mean it shouldn't be explored, it just means that it should be explored with honesty.)
But most have been too polite to tell you so.
Perhaps hoping that you would get over your insecurities and come to your senses.
Will you do stop pretending ?
I hope you are at least a little bit embarrassed and at least a little ashamed.
Your "team of experts" doesn't even really exist. You are a phony and a liar.
People like you who don't respect honesty, don't deserve the use of social media.
Conflict tends to breed hits and unfortunately corporations care more for money than they do for humanity. So were kind of stuck with people like you until we all find the answer, to this aspect of the social dilemma.
To those members of good will in this forum, who are honestly searching for the truth.
-----------------------------------------------
1) In one of his previous posts Floor asked me the question "DO YOU THINK THAT THE TRUTH MATTERS?" THIS IS A REALLY SHOCKING QUESTION! Such a question can be asked only by an unworthy person of absolute lack of morality. Such a person has a pathological and criminal way of thinking. Such a person is dangerous not only for this forum community members, but also for human society as a whole. This is an obvious fact.
2) So do not pay attention to Floor's comments. He is not searching for the truth. He is a professional (but clumsy) cheater. He simply wants to earn some money by trying to manipulate the audience. This is an obvious fact.
To Floor.
---------------------------------------
You quickly forgot my lesson. Let me remind you of it again.
---------------------------------------
1) Answer the question: Are you a human being? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
2) Answer the question: Are you a donkey? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
3) Answer the question: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
---------------------------------------------
4) A piece of ABSOLUTELY FREE technology breakthrogh information! And no public recognition within a period of many months! Absurd and ridiculous discussions within a period of many months for clarifying of simple obvious truths! This is a comedy! Tell your masters that our third piece of EXPERIMENTALLY PROVED technology breakthrough, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery, costs already $100,000,000! And each month this price will be increased with $10,000,000, that is, after one month the price will be $110,000,000, after two months the price will be $120,000,000, etc.
To Floor.
------------------------------
I WANT YOU PERSONALLY TO ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION. AND THIS SIMPLE QUESTION IS: DO YOU HAVE ANY THEORETICAL (ONLY THEORETICAL!) OBJECTIONS AGAINST PROF. S. L. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLUTION? YES OR NO?
ONLY ONE WORD -- EITHER "YES" OR "NO"!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR ANSWER.
To Floor.
-------------------------------
And don't ask me again your shocking question "DO YOU THINK THAT THE TRUTH MATTERS?"
@George1
You're a CLOWN.
Quote from: Floor on January 20, 2021, 10:41:05 AM
@George1
It is appearant to all who read here, that you do not understand and neither
are you seeking to understand electrolysis.
Neither are you actually looking for a free energy device.
Why do you continue to seek to perpetuate this lie ?
Have you been diagnosed with a narcissistic disorder ?
You don't really believe the simple electrolysis of water is over unity do you ?
You are lying to say so, aren't you ?
Please just accept that this over unity premise you have presented is incorrect.
Stop trying to pollute the forum with your corrupt agenda.
We await your admission, of the the honest facts.
Or are you just another cheap scammer / disinformation agent ?
george1,You makes me wondering about this ' technological potential ' !
#460 : 4 . 2/two to 15/fifthteen times capacity increase from any battery
actually 08/15 lead battery average 40 Wh - 80 Wh /Kg
1 KWh/Kg enhancement possible,with ordinary lead battery ?
Modern technology :
0,5 -1,5 KWh/Kg performance only as Alvin Marks Qensor battery technology known !
How changes the charge cycles number : stay,decline,increase ?
When You have positive answers then do not answer here but go to e-platform- manufacturer,whose wants to
improve actually activity radius and combustion engine cars to e-drive mobility !
Sincere
OCWL
To Floor
--------------------------------
1) Stop trying to convince all of us here in this forum that you are an imbecile! This will not save your a**! Your masters will not pay to you your month salary! On the contrary, your masters will punish you! Your masters will beat you! You have to run quickly! :) (Although I doubt that you could hide and avoid the slaps. :))
2) Tell your masters that our third piece of EXPERIMENTALLY PROVED technology breakthrough, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery, costs already $110,000,000! And after 20 days this price will be increased with $10,000,000, that is, after 20 days the price will be $120,000,000.
3) Do you understand well the essence of the above item 2? Shall I repeat it again?
To those members of good will in this forum, who are honestly searching for the truth.
-----------------------------------------------
Let me explain the essence of the clumsy and amateur manipulation tricks of this swindler Floor.
1) Sixteen times in a row I have been asking Floor one and same simple question. And this simple question was: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution?
2) Sixteen times in a row Floor has been avoiding to answer the above simple question by using only either "yes" or "no". Let me explain why this happened.
3) If Floor says "yes", then he would smash to smithereens the basic axioms of electric engineering as well as the expert skills and knowledge of highly qualified experts like Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.) and his two Russian colleagues (please look at our previous posts) some 40 years ago. (Actually Floor wants to convince all of us here in this forum that three highly qualified experts in theoretical and applied physics (yet strongly separated by time, space and nationality) have committed one and same error. This is impossible.)
4) If Floor says "no", then he must accept the validity of our OU water-splitting electrolysis concept.
5) That is how matters stand. But what could be expected of person like Floor, who asks questions like "Do you think that truth matters?"? The latter unambiguously shows Floor's gangster and swindling mentality.
To Floor.
-----------------------------------------------
I am asking you my question for the 17th time: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution? Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
To lancaIV.
-------------------------
Hi lancaIV,
Thank you for your post. Please give me some time to consider it carefully. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
George
@George1
You have not presented a theory.
The topic is that electrolysis of water is O.U..
I DO NOT say absolutely, that there hasn't been and cannot be any O.U..
I only say that there is No reason to believe that conventional
/ typical electrolysis is O.U.
and that
George1 has not presented any basis for a theoretical O.U. as such.
but also
neither has he given any experimental evidence, NONE,
but instead, only the confused, misapplication of formulas.
George1 doesn't know basic electricity very well.
So for anyone interested in learning the basic electricity required to understand
the energy transfer and transformation involved in the dc electrolysis of pure water...
In addition to ohm's law as
E = I x R voltage = Amperage x Resistance
I x R = E
E / I = R
E / R = I
there is next also ......
Kirchhoff's first law
For any junction in an electric circuit, the sum of currents entering that junction is equal to the sum of currents exiting that junction.
Kirchhoff's second law
The sum of the electric potential (voltage) drops around any closed circuit is equal to zero.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws
@ All readers
VERY NICE... complete course !
Basic electricity books. I have these in my own library (hard copies), classics / awesome.
https://archive.org/details/BasicElectricityVol1ToVol5VanValkenburgh/mode/2up
Quote from: George1 on December 21, 2020, 03:54:20 PM
To Floor.
-----------------------------
You try to be a skillful manipulator, but you failed. You bombed all of us here in this forum with a cluster of absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors. These absurd hypotheses and deliberately hidden theoretical errors in addition have practically nothing to do with our considerations. You are obviously an agent of the official science mafia. How much did they pay you? Shame on you!
Bull S--t.
. Didn't you know that the electrolysis plus the burning of the H and O is not O.U..
2. Didn't you know that this forum has had dozens of explorations of, and thousands of pages dedicated precisely to the examining of variations of the electrolysis process in an O.U. context ?
3. The electrical energy converted to heat energy in a PURELY resistive circuit is 1 per 1.
4. This is true for ANY PURELY resistive electric circuit whether the resistor is solid or liquid.
5. An electrical circuit is NO LONGER a PURELY resistive circuit when electrolysis occurs.
What next ?
You going to sell us on the phallicy that an electrically energized coil is O.U. because the magnetic field is in addition to the heat produced ?
Or that in a wire coil with an AC current, total resistance is only the ohmic and doesn't include impedance ?
Me thinkest thow knowest not the shit where of ye speak .....
I cry B.S. on you.
You are obviously a scamming con man.
You started this topic on 01/28/19.
Here is your original statement / claim / bait.
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
Since that time (10 months), have you conducted and presented any
experiment which would support your claim that a simple electrolysis process
which results in H and O release is over unity, once the H and O
are then burned ?
Have you learned anything in those 10 months, from this topic?
If so, what and will you share that with us ?
I for one, do not believe that you, your self, think this claim is O.U...
The topic is that electrolysis of water is O.U..
I DO NOT say absolutely, that there hasn't been and cannot be O.U..
I only say that there is No reason to believe that conventional
/ typical electrolysis is O.U. and that no evidence, NONE, has been
given by the topics originator, but instead, only the confused, misapplication of formulas.
The joule is the SI unit of energy.
work = force x displacement
or
joules of work (energy) = newtons of force x meters of displacement, in the direction of the applied force.
The work done in displacing an object 1 meter against a force of 1 newton = 1 joule of energy. This is also referred to as the energy expended.
A 1 kilogram mass (equal to 1000 grams) exerts , 9.8066500286389 newtons of force down
(in earth's standard gravity).
1000 grams = 9.8066500286389 newtons
and
9.8066500286389 / 1 newton = 0.10197162099999948436449906616771 grams
there fore
0.10197162129779282425700927431896 grams or approximately 102 grams exerts
1 newton of force down in standard gravity.
A mass of about 102 grams exerts 1 newton of force down in standard gravity.
If we lift a 102 gram object 1 meter, we do about 1 joule of work upon that object.
Power (watts) is equal to the joules expended per second of time.
1 joule per second = 1 watt of power
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....
There is an inverse relationship between the force of gravity and the distance between the CENTERS of the two attracted objects.
If the distance is doubled, the gravitational force is decreased by a factor of 4. This is because the square of 2 is 2 x 2, which equals 4. If the distance between two objects is tripled, the force of gravity is decreased by a factor of 9. In this case, it is because the square of 3 is 3 x 3, which equals 9. This relationship is known as an inverse square relationship.
However, on the scale of a base ball in attraction to the earth, the distance between the CENTER of and the surface of, that base ball becomes insignificant within the calculation.
Similarly, a distance of 1000 meters above Earth's surface becomes insignificant in proportion to the distance from Earth's surface to its center.
There fore, a base ball weighs ALMOST exactly the same, whether it is 1 meter above, or 100 meters above the Earth's surface.
.... .... .... .... .... .... ....
Coulomb force is the force due to electric charge. It is the repelling force between two electrons but also the attracting force between an electron and a proton. Both of which are due to electric charge.
Like unto a gravitational force, coulomb force also diminishes by the inverse of the square of the distance between the CENTERS of two particles (point sources).
However.....
Unlike the Earth, Sub atomic particles ( protons and electrons) are very very small and there fore, very small changes in the distance between the center of one particle and the center of another particle, causes a large change in the force present.
And unlike gravity, electric charge has two polarities.
The magnitude of the electric force between two "electrons" is directly proportional to the amount of one electric charge, q1, multiplied by the other electric charge, q2, and inversely proportional to the square of the distance r between their centers.
The fixed numerical value of the elementary charge e (of 1 electron) is 1.602176634×10^−19 coulomb
and
One coulomb is the charge of 6241509074460762607.776 elementary charges (electrons)
and
The numerical value of theses two quantities are the multiplicative inverses of each other.
Like this... The coulomb is exactly 1/(1.602176634×10^−19) which is approximately 6.2415090744×10^18, elementary charges.
The charge of 6241509074460762607.776 protons is a + charge.
The same number of electrons has the same magnitude but opposite sign of charge.
That is − charge. 1 coulomb is 6241509074460762607.776 − charges.
The force from electric charge has other considerations as well.
example...
In calculating the force between two charged and macro world objects (for example two electrically charged plates), one must also consider the the area of the surfaces of those plates.
.... .... .... .... .... .... ....
Quote from Wikipedia
"Until 2019, the International System of Standards (SI) defined the ampere as follows:
The ampere is that constant current which, if maintained in two straight parallel conductors of infinite length, of negligible circular cross-section, and placed one meter apart in vacuum, would produce between these conductors a force equal to 2×10^−7 newtons per meter of length ."
End of Wikipedia quote
That force of 2×10^−7 newtons, per meter of length is the result of the magnetic field surrounding the two conductors.
That repulsion force is magnetic and is in due to, both the electric charge (coulomb charge) and the motion of the electrons along the conductor.
note...
This is not the coulomb force present as the repulsion between the electric charges.
.... .... .... .... .... .... ....
The present (SI) quantification of the ampere (since May 2019).....
The ampere was then defined as one coulomb of charge per second. In SI, the unit of charge, the coulomb, is defined as the charge carried by one ampere during one second. However, this definition although not the SI standard until 2019, was in use within the earlier Centimeters Grams Seconds (CGS) system prior to 2019.
A current of one ampere is defined generally as one coulomb of −charge (electrons) going past a given point (generally in a conductor) per second, but strictly speaking, this could also be a current of + charge protons passing a given point in 1 second of time.
and
It seems as though there is no simple and straight forward way, to exactly correlate the force and displacement elements of mechanical work ( joule), to the process of arriving at its electrical energy equivalent ( joules).
FORCE
In SI terms the derived unit of voltage is the volt. The volt is a unit of the electric potential between two points. Voltage is a force, and is some times referred to as electromotive force.
MASS or CHARGE per unit of time
The ampere unit, definition, includes a time element (the second). It is a unit of a quantity per second. It is a current, a flow of electrons.
The Ampere is a time based unit of measurement.
ENERGY
The joule unit of measurement of energy
The Joule is not a time based unit.
The coulomb may be thought of as either, a quantity of 6.2415090744×10^18 negative charges or as a quantity of 6.2415090744×10^18 electrons.
Coulombs per second = amps...... Amps x volts = watts.
A force of 1 volt will move 1 coulomb of electrons through a resistance of 1 ohm in 1 second of time.
But...
In SI units, ELECTRIC WORK is stated as joules of energy per coulomb, where 1 volt = 1 joule (of work) per 1 coulomb (of charge or electrons)....
1 volt = 1 joule / 1 coulomb
where as
Electric power (1Watt) is 1 Volt of force x 1 coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor in one second.
1 Volt x 1 Coulomb = 1 Joule but 1 Volt x 1 Coulomb / Second = Power as 1 Watt.
however....
There is no length of displacement specified, as is specified, in the force times displacement equation which defines mechanical work.
There is only the movement of a specific quantity of electrons (one coulomb) through a point. The coulomb unit is substituted for the displacement unit (meters).
That which is analogous to a mechanical reactive force (equal to and opposite force), is the electrical resistance (stated in units of ohms of resistance) opposing the voltage.
One coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor is one joule of work (no time element).
Force as newtons x displacement as meters = joules.
Force as volts x quantity as coulombs = joules.
One coulomb of electrons passing a point in a conductor in one second, is a flow RATE of 1 ampere (a current). Like unto gallons per minute. There is a time element.
The ampere is not a unit of some quantity of electrons, it is a unit of a rate of flow (1 coulomb of electrons per second).
mechanical.... force x displacement = joules or newtons x meters = joules
electric.... force x quantity = joules or volts x coulombs = joules
mechanical..... force x displacement / time = watts or newtons x meters = joules and 1 joule / 1 seconds = 1 watt .... 1 joule per second = 1 watt
electric..... force x quantity / time = watts or 1 volt x 1 coulomb = 1 joule and 1 joule / 1 second = 1 watt.
But also, 1 coulomb / 1 second = 1 amperes and so 1 volt x 1 ampere = 1 watt.
.... .... .... .... .... .... ....
.... .... .... .... .... .... ....
where in we let
E = electromotive force
V = volts of electromotive force
T = time
S = time in seconds
I = electric current
C = coulomb of electrons
A = ampere of electric current, as in 1 coulomb / 1 second
and
E x I = P however, P x t indicates power with the time element canceled out (energy)....
because...
I (current) = Coulombs / Second ... this is a quantity of electrons passing some point in a conductor per second of time or a quantity of electrons passing some point / (DIVIDED BY) time or in other words an electric current, which may then be expressed in unit of amperes (A) as ....
Coulombs / Second = Amperes
and
C/S x S = C and C x V = Joules.... time was canceled out.
This is like unto 6 / 3 = 2 and 6 / 3 x 3 = 6, wherein the 3 is the time, stated in seconds.
E (electromotive force) as volts x coulombs of electrons = joules of electric energy.
There is no element of time involved in the equation. Time enters into it only once we turn to considering power and watts rather than simply, energy as joules. OK
.... .... .... .... .... .... ....
quote from George 1
" V x I x t = input energy = electric energy, which is generated by the DC source, and which is consumed by the electrolyzer "
end of quote
First
V x I x t is correctly written as either E x I x T or written as V x A x seconds
Next
where in we let
E = electromotive force
V = volts of electromotive force
T = time
S = time in seconds
I = electric current
C = coulomb of electrons
A = ampere of electric current (as in 1 coulomb / 1 second)
quote from George 1 continued
"and which is consumed by the electrolyzer "
end of quote continued
This DOES NOT refer ONLY to the electric energy consumed / transformed by ohmic resistance into heat.
Next quote
"I x I x R x t = Q = Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyzer = output energy 1"
end of quote
Not true...
I x I x R x t (E on RIGHT side of the equation) does not have the same value as does V x I x t = input energy on the left side of the equation.
The energy value of I x I x R x t (E on RIGHT side of the equation) (given by you as Q) should be in terms of its conversion to heat energy, minus the energy expended in electrolysis.
There will be less ohmic heating in the electrolyte because some of the energy is instead expended to cause electrolysis. Some of the I (electron current) will split the water instead of heating the water.
Fact .....
E x I x t (input) does not equal the output as the resistive heating alone, which would be evolved in the electrolyte due to purely ohmic resistance.
The rest of the equation and any calculation then become invalid.
In most circumstances energy is "conserved". This is what makes it seem (to some) that
any one looking for O.U. processes is nutty.
Looking for O.U. has been for me, a path of learning. To my mind, seeking O.U. is not
the exploration of how to get something from nothing, but rather the exploration of how
we might get energy from new and / or possibly little understood or even unknown
sources or methods.
.... .... .... .... .... .... ....
Have we missed something ? Perhaps that the ordinary electrolysis of water is O.U. ?
If we have missed it, you for one, certainly have not demonstrated how.
Analogous to water through a multi-path pipe system, electric current divides between
any 2 or more paths, in proportion to the resistance to its flow along those paths.
In the electrolysis process, the electric current's path is divided (within the electrolyte)
into paths where in some of the energy is expended as heat via conventional
electrical resistance and some of the energy is expended in splitting the water molecules.
Like unto the water and the water pipe analogy, the total current entering those paths, is
equal to the total current exiting them.
In this case, the total energy in and out are equal as well. But that energy has been
transformed into other than a purely electromagnetic form.
E or I alone, neither amounts to power. But if there is a current flowing it is because an
electric potential has been realized. Where there exists an electric potential, current will flow
when the electrical resistance is low enough (E / I x R).
Your, cut and past repetition of formulas (whether chemical or electrical) does not equate to
an understanding of those formulas. If you have misunderstood them, just get it straight
and move forward. That's all.
To Floor.
====================
You really need to see your doctor! Did you take your medicine this morning? :)
------------------------------------
All members of this forum can see that I am asking you my question for the 18th time: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution?
Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
You really become a laughing stock! :)
Quote from: George1 on January 23, 2021, 08:46:35 AM
To Floor.
====================
You really need to see your doctor! Did you take your medicine this morning? :)
------------------------------------
All members of this forum can see that I am asking you my question for the 18th time: Do you have any theoretical (only theoretical!) objections against Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution?
Yes or no?
Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
You really become a laughing stock! :)
@ George1
I realize that its not easy for a person such as your self to
get out of his narcissistic bubble. But such personality disorders
are destructive to the people around it. For their's and your own sake
you should
seek counseling.
I have just finished answering your query for the umpteenth time.
@
https://overunity.com/18134/a-simple-electric-heater-which-has-efficiency-greater-than-1/msg554897/#msg554897
@ George 1
ʻAʻohe kula a ʻaʻohe hana?
I feel for you bra.
You seem like a smart young man.
E mālama i kou hanohano a mālama i nā lāhui hanohano
To Floor.
======================
Did you walk straight into the trap, you old swindler? :) Your last "theoretical" article (January 22, 2021, 05:39:43 PM) is full of (a) absurd hypotheses, (b) deliberately hidden mathematical errors and (c) an enormous dose of insanity. You really suffer from some kind of severe mental defectiveness.
---------------------------------------
Let me divide my simple question into two even simpler sub-questions. This is because you understand simple things with great difficulty.
---------------------------------------
1) Firstly, Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.) wrote, that current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
I am asking you a question: Is this equation I = (m)/(Z x t) true? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
---------------------------------------
2) Secondly, Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.) wrote, that power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
I am asking you a question: Is this equation power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W true? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
---------------------------------------
All members of this forum are looking forward to your two answers. Each of your two answers must consist of one word only -- either "yes" or "no".
---------------------------------------
Do you understand well what I have written above? Shall I repeat it?
---------------------------------------
Obviously your masters kick seriously your a**! Did you get a thrashing? Some punches in the nose? Because as if the volume of your last insane "theory" (your post of January 22, 2021, 05:39:43 PM) is obviously directly proportional to the number of slaps you've got. :)
----------------------------------------
I will repeat again as you likely have some mental problems: Each of your two answers must consist of one word only -- either "yes" or "no".
Quote from: George1 on January 24, 2021, 06:58:10 AM
To Floor.
======================
Did you walk straight into the trap, you old swindler? :) Your last "theoretical" article (January 22, 2021, 05:39:43 PM) is full of (a) absurd hypotheses, (b) deliberately hidden mathematical errors and (c) an enormous dose of insanity. You really suffer from some kind of severe mental defectiveness.
1. Its not "theoretical". Its is comprised of standard definitions as I have
expressed them.
2. It contains no hypotheses at all. Again, its not theoretical, its contains standard
definitions, and explanations only.
3. It contains no deliberate mathematical errors (if you see one point it
out and I will gladly correct it).
4. Your childish insults only take away from your credibility.
floor
1) current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
---------------------------------------
2) Secondly, Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.) wrote, that power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
Will you you start with a clear and simple explanation of these formulas, in plain english
so that we beginners can easily understand them.
floor
To Floor.
----------------------------------
I would not dare to call you an idiot (my good manners do not allow me to do this), but you are doing your best to earn this "honorary" title.
-----------------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
-----------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 20th time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
-----------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 20th time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
The word Idiot offends you, while the words liar and cheat do not ?
That is the greatest kind of idiocy.
People usually respect when others have the courage to admit they were wrong.
Man up.
While it is true, that every one has at times lied and every one of us has cheated, and surely
will again in some manner, at some time in their future, this is not, and nothing can
justify taking a criminal path in life.
Were not talking about stealing a loaf of bread because you, or a someone's child
is in need of food here.
I can and I should accept that I, or anyone else is sometimes wrong, or even defending of
their error. At least for a time. But some things are not defensible.
So get off your B.S. stance and find something else to do with your time,
and if you are not an idiot then stop behaving as if you were.
To Floor.
-----------------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
-----------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 21th time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
-----------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 21th time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
To Floor.
-----------------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
-----------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 22nd time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
-----------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 22nd time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
To Floor.
-----------------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
-----------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 23rd time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
-----------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 23rd time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
To those members of good will in this forum, who are searching honestly for the truth.
-----------------------------------------------
Ok, let us start from the very beginning. Please read carefully and thoroughly the text below.
--------------------------------------------------------
1) Let us consider a standard SOLID conductor. This could be for example a standard copper wire.
1A) A standard SOLID conductor is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
1B) The circuit is equipped with a standard DC ammeter and with a standard DC ohmmeter.
1C) The ammeter registers a direct current, which is equal to 1A.
1D) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance, which is equal to 1Ohm.
1E) Each second the standard SOLID conductor consumes electric energy, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
1F) Each second the standard SOLID conductor generates Joule's heat, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
-----------------------------------------------------
2) Let us consider a standard LIQUID conductor (a standard electrolyte). This could be for example a zinc or copper sulphate solution or a sodium chloride (NaCl) solution (ordinary salty water) or whatever electrolyte you want. There are hundreds of standard ordinary electrolytes (LIQUID conductors).
2A) A standard LIQUID conductor is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2B) The circuit is equipped with a standard DC ammeter and with a standard DC ohmmeter.
2C) The ammeter registers a direct current, which is equal to 1A.
2D) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance, which is equal to 1Ohm.
2E) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor consumes electric energy, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
2F) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates Joule's heat, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
-----------------------------------------------------
3) In one word, the above two items 1 and 2 are an illustration of one of the basic axioms of electric engineering, which is given by the equality
A = I x I x R = B,
where
A = electric energy, which is consumed each second by the conductor
I = direct current, which flows through the conductor
R = Ohmic resistance of the conductor
B = Joule's heat, which is generated each second by the conductor
-------------------------------------------------------
4) Equality A = I x I x R = B is valid for any standard conductor (no matter solid, liquid or gaseous).
-------------------------------------------------------
5) Equality A = I x I x R = B can be found in any electric engineering beginner's guide/manual/textbook.
-------------------------------------------------------
6) But if the above mentioned axiom of electric engineering is not correct, then it's OK! Let us start creating then a new revolutionary branch of electric engineering with another basic axioms.
-------------------------------------------------------
Everything seems to be clear now, doesn't it? (But please ask questions, if any.)
-------------------------------------------------------
(to be continued)
To Floor.
-----------------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
-----------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 24th time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
-----------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 24th time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
To those members of good will in this forum, who are searching honestly for the truth.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No questions as far as I can see -- an indication that everything is clear from our post of January 27, 2021, 03:51:29 PM. This is good.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So let us proceed further with our explanations, which we started in our previous post of January 27, 2021, 03:51:29 PM .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Another basic axiom of electric engineering states that all LIQUID conductors (electrolytes) generate a great variety of additional effects (while direct current flows through them, i.e. while electrolysis takes place). Most frequently occurring and most important of these additional effects are as follows.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1A) Additional effect 1. Transferring of metals from one electrode to the other. Examples of such metals are silver, zinc, copper, aluminium, nickel, chrome, gold, iron, sodium and magnesium.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1B) Additional effect 2. Generation of chlorine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1C) Additional effect 3. Generation of oxygen.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1D) Additional effect 4. Generation of hydrogen.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1E) Additional effect 5. Some combination of the above four.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) Let us consider additional effect 1. Having in mind our previous post of January 27, 2021, 03:51:29 PM, we can write down that:
A) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor consumes electric energy, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
B) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates Joule's heat, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
C) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor transfers copper (or any of the above mentioned metals) from one electrode to the other.
Question: Can we burn/explode in some way the transferred copper in order to generate each second some additional portion of heat?
Answer: No, we can't. Metals are not inflammable under normal conditions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Let us consider now additional effect 2. Having in mind our previous post January 27, 2021, 03:51:29 PM, we can write down that:
A) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor consumes electric energy, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
B) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates Joule's heat, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
C) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates a certain amount of chlorine.
Question: Can we burn/explode in some way the generated chlorine in order to generate each second some additional portion of heat?
Answer: No, we can't. Chlorine is aggressive and dangerous for human health, but it is not inflammable under normal conditions.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) Let us consider additional effect 3. Having in mind our previous post of January 27, 2021, 03:51:29 PM, we can write down that:
A) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor consumes electric energy, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
B) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates Joule's heat, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
C) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates a certain amount of oxygen.
Question: Can we burn/explode in some way the generated oxygen in order to generate each second some additional portion of heat?
Answer: No, we can't. Oxygen supports the process of burning, but it is not inflammable by itself under normal conditions.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5) Let us consider additional effect 4. Having in mind our previous post of January 27, 2021, 03:51:29 PM, we can write down that:
A) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor consumes electric energy, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
B) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates Joule's heat, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
C) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates a certain amount of hydrogen.
Question: Can we burn/explode in some way the generated hydrogen in order to generate each second some additional portion of heat?
Answer: Yes, we can. And here is the exception. If we burn/explode hydrogen immediately after its releasing, then we could generate each second 0.35J of additional heat.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5-1) Therefore, having in mind the text above, we can write down that:
A) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor consumes electric energy, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
B) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates Joule's heat, which is equal to 1J, that is, (1A) x (1A) x (1Ohm) = 1J/s.
C) Each second the standard LIQUID conductor generates a certain amount of hydrogen.
D) Each second the released hydrogen is burned/exploded immediately after its releasing.
E) Each second the burning/exploding released hydrogen generates 0.35J of additional heat, that is, 0.35J/s.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5-2) In one word:
5-2A) The inlet electric energy, consumed each second, is equal to 1J/s.
5-2B) The outlet heat, generated each second, is equal to 1J/s + 0.35J/s = 1.35J/s.
5-2C) Efficiency = (1.35J/s.)/(1J/s) = 1.35 <=> Efficiency > 1.
5-2D) The latter is in perfect accordance with our further development of Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution. (Please refer to our previous posts.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything seems to be clear now, doesn't it? Please ask questions, if any. We'll be glad to answer.
Any comments, suggestions, questions?
Still no comments, suggestions, questions?
About making a real device. But such a real device is in plain sight of everybody. I will explain this in detail. Please read carefully and thoroughly the text below.
-------------------------------------
1) Have a look at your car's battery. What happens while you recharge it?
1A) Firstly, you generate Joule's heat. (Please refer to our previous posts.)
1B) Secondly, you generate hydrogen. If this hydrogen is burned/exploded, then a second portion of heat would be generated. (Please refer to our previous posts.)
1C) Thirdly, you store electric energy when the batterry is completely charged. If you connect the already completely charged battery to an ordinary Ohmic resistor (thus forming a circuit) and then if you discharge the battery, then a third portion of heat (this time again Joule's heat as in item 1A) would be generated.
--------------------------------------
2) In one word, we can write down that
(B + C)/(A) = 1.35 <=> (B + C + D)/(A) > 1.35 <=> Efficiency > 1.35
where
A = electric energy, which is consumed for recharging
B = first portion of heat, mentioned in item 1A
C = second portion of heat, mentioned in item 1B
D = third portion of heat, mentioned in item 1C
--------------------------------------
Simple, clear and understandable. Please refer again to our previous posts, if necessary.
--------------------------------------
3) As mentioned many times in our previous posts our DC electrolysis OU concept (which is our second technology breakthrough) is absolutely free.
--------------------------------------
4) Our third technology breakthrough however is not free. Our third technology breakthrough is for sale. Let us remind again that our third technology breakthrough increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard now-existing battery. Our third technology breakthrough has both a theory and a working prototype.
----------------------------------------
5) Besides we (our team) have designed another 7 technology breakthrough inventions, which are ready for selling too. (We are working now over our 11th invention.)
Any comments, suggestions, questions, which are related to our last posts?
Deep silence again? :) No questions, no comments?
Waiting for your comments and questions.
The same topic and the same title -- please follow our hot discussion in besslerwheel.com/forum. A single warrior against a battalion of furious rejectors. :)
Any comments, suggestions, questions?
Considering this thread is 2 years old, someone may have mentioned this before, but vapor-compression cycle heat pumps have a COP avg. of 3-4. Typical AC heat pumps used in millions of homes literally produce more heat than joule heating.
I'm just saying, joule heating may be simple, but it's not the most efficient use of energy for producing heat. So it's not really a shocker to achieve efficiencies greater than 100%.
Well i can understand that the efficiency over 100% is a perpetual element for sure.
Anyhow for any free thinking person would question mainstream science regarding how energy manifests and recycles it self like in nature because nature for sure does not waste energy like a normal electric circuit does as in cop under 1 or efficiency under 100% and if the cop and efficiency are under 100% for both then the understanding of mainstream is legit due to the energy configuration.
Circuits under 100% efficiency and cop is destroying the potential of nature and thus nature is completely opposite and thus for nature and the wasted circuit which are opposite have opposite laws of energy like as if it was incompatible.
Nature does not have energy dissipation so that problem in nature does not exist.
"How else should it be done then?", was always the immediate question. The answer is simple: "Exactly in the opposite way that it is done today!"
― Viktor Schauberger
What that quote means is that nature is perpetual with perpetual laws of energy, and the circuit that has energy that wastes as in no free energy is possible is incompatible and thus opposite/fully incompatible to each other.
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/171550.Viktor_Schauberger
In every case do the opposite to whatever technology does today. Then you will always be on the right track.
Viktor Schauberger
https://www.azquotes.com/author/37236-Viktor_Schauberger
Quote from: antijon on February 09, 2021, 12:35:32 PM
Considering this thread is 2 years old, someone may have mentioned this before, but vapor-compression cycle heat pumps have a COP avg. of 3-4. Typical AC heat pumps used in millions of homes literally produce more heat than joule heating.
I'm just saying, joule heating may be simple, but it's not the most efficient use of energy for producing heat. So it's not really a shocker to achieve efficiencies greater than 100%.
heat pump ' work C.O.P. ' is not efficiency !
during the thermodynamic= space temperature increase or cryodynamic cycle= space temperature decrease
the device PUMPS heat from heat deposit A to heat deposit B,
so we have the pump outer work/pump(-motor) own consume = C.O.P. !
In the past we have had by electric heat pump devices propagated BTU in Wattheat/Welectric C.O.P. 3,in real world temperature difference use average C.O.P. 2 (winter down to C.O.P. 1)
pump electromagnetic motors with 80% peak efficiencies(full load)
by each unit electric energy use invested 3 units primary energy ( electricity generation and network efficiency )
https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Primary_energy (https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Primary_energy)( there are also gasmotor-driven heat pumps in existence )
ergo from primary energy calculation total mechanical work C.O.P. ≤ 1 ,to PUMP= to MOVE ,not to generate,heat !
it does NOT GENERATE ( excluded : only in the electric motor windings ::) ) heat !
Even excluding the electric network losts and taking a wind wheel as heat pump drive we have to calculate with over 40% mechanical energy conversion losts = Betz-limit !
Next losts : circuit internal = turbulent/laminar flow
the flow medium/gas changes over the time its chemical strucure
the new device losts over the time peak efficieny through erosion = higher friction
We can compare the heat pump circuit with a solar collector circuit ,with/-out pump : thermo-syphon principle !
compressor heat pump versus absorption heat pump !
A good collector ,vacuum tube for example,converts/absorps in average 50% from incoming energy to compressed heat
From 100% free natural energy making 50% available,storeable !
(https://www.ee.co.za/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Vector%202012/siemens-111-fig-1.jpg (https://www.ee.co.za/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Vector%202012/siemens-111-fig-1.jpg))
photovoltaic device as "free energy converter" versus "free energy conductor" : up to 50 times( or 5000%) ,point of view a. more b. less effective !
5000% better but in total : underunity ! 1% versus 50% efficiency
50 times better but in total : underunity ! 1% versus 50% efficiency
Arithmetics and psychology :
A share with 100 base units worth looses 90% worth and wins 900% worth = process win/losts 0
100 -90% to 10 +900% to 100
A share with 100 base units worth wins 900% and looses 90% worth = process win/losts 0
100 +900% to 1000 -90% to 100
" -90% equates +900%" " +900% equates -90%"
Set theory is a good tool to study nature and humans their i/logics and sur/real behaviour ,up to ..... = { }
with or without " syntax error" ,geral syntax / individual his/her/its " syntax"
Pareto,Walras theory
Modern : fuzzy logics
Hyper-modern,learning,heat pumps are fuzzy logics incorporated !
a commercial 'conventional' heat pump example
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ramsond-9-500-BTU-3-4-Ton-Ductless-Duct-Free-Mini-Split-Air-Conditioner-and-Heat-Pump-110V-60Hz-27GW2/203013142 (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ramsond-9-500-BTU-3-4-Ton-Ductless-Duct-Free-Mini-Split-Air-Conditioner-and-Heat-Pump-110V-60Hz-27GW2/203013142)
heat pump 9500 BTU = 2785 W heat condution potential : given 1140 W electric consume
and by EE/PE factor 2,6 = 1140 x 2,6 = 2964 W primary energy input ,
http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/ (http://insideenergy.org/2015/11/06/lost-in-transmission-how-much-electricity-disappears-between-a-power-plant-and-your-plug/)
2785/2964 = C.O.P 0,94 by base primary energy input
2785/1140 = C.O.P. 2,44 by base electric energy input
The construction standarts today have as base "primary energy" so given number " Coverage Area (sq. ft.) : 400 "
2964 W/ 400 feets floor or 37,2 sqm = 80 W/sqm energy consume is far away ,and not allowed,
by modern economic construction normation ,low-e : 20 Wattpeak/sqm primary energy consume
and solar passive : 10 Wattpeak/sqm primary energy consume !
2964 Watt primary energy represents 148 sqm low-e and 296 sqm passive house floor area coverage !
https://isorast.de/ (https://isorast.de/) was in the 90´the trendsetter and " sponsor" from the https://passivehouse.com/ (https://passivehouse.com/) Dr.Feist Institute
Now,2021,Solar Passive House technology "open source/free" available !
Architecture design more than 2000 years old : gracian philosopher Sokrates his "solar house" concept !
http://www.naturalbuildingblog.com/sun-tempered-architecture-socrates-house/ (http://www.naturalbuildingblog.com/sun-tempered-architecture-socrates-house/)
old versus 2021 version comparison :
http://s5892.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/socrates-house.jpg (http://s5892.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/socrates-house.jpg)
https://i0.wp.com/www.bioenergyconsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/principles-passive-house.jpg?resize=768%2C439&ssl=1 (https://i0.wp.com/www.bioenergyconsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/principles-passive-house.jpg?resize=768%2C439&ssl=1)
New buildings constructor has cause "blower door tests" and "thermographical camera" not the chance to escape from these normations !
energy =
In thermodynamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics), the
exergy of a system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_(thermodynamics)) is the maximum useful work (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_work) possible during a process (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_process) that brings the system into equilibrium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_equilibrium) with a heat reservoir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_reservoir), reaching maximum entropy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy).
[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exergy#endnote_perrot) When the surroundings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surroundings_(thermodynamics)) are the reservoir, exergy is the potential of a system to cause a change as it achieves equilibrium with its environment. Exergy is the energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy) that is available to be used. After the system and surroundings reach equilibrium, the exergy is zero. Determining exergy was also the first goal of thermodynamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics). The term "exergy" was coined in 1956 by Zoran Rant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoran_Rant) (1904–1972) by using the Greek ex (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%90%CE%BE) and ergon (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%94%CF%81%CE%B3%CE%BF%CE%BD) meaning "from work (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(thermodynamics))"
[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exergy#cite_note-1)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exergy#endnote_rant56a), but the concept was developed by J. Willard Gibbs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Willard_Gibbs) in 1873.
[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exergy#endnote_gibbs1873) Energy is neither created nor destroyed during a process. Energy changes from one form to another (see First Law of Thermodynamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Law_of_Thermodynamics)). In contrast, exergy is always destroyed when a process is irreversible (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_process_(thermodynamics)), for example loss of heat to the environment (see Second Law of Thermodynamics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Law_of_Thermodynamics)). This destruction is proportional to the entropy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy) increase of the system together with its surroundings (see Entropy production (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_production)). The destroyed exergy has been called anergy.
[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exergy#cite_note-2) For an isothermal process (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isothermal_process), exergy and energy are interchangeable terms, and there is no anergy.
Sincere
OCWL
p.s.: so a real power in/power out C.O.P. 10 amplification device/circuit/system in need 8) ;)
it has been the solar passive/active house pro/contra decision in the 80´ which made construction so costly
more about the solar active house ? Phillips-house prototype,Aachen,1974
https://passipedia.org/basics/the_passive_house_-_historical_review/passive_versus_active_measures_in_europe_america (https://passipedia.org/basics/the_passive_house_-_historical_review/passive_versus_active_measures_in_europe_america)
70´standart :
Accordingly, with respect to "Normal" houses, it was
possible to reduce the heating requirement by a factor of 10 to 20 in all climatesAnother,here french R&D:
According to researches, Trombe walls are an effective technology for reducing heating energy, as much as 47% in residential cases (Balcomb, 1992) and, therefore, they can be used as an efficient and durable solar heating method.
http://ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2011/P_1487.pdf (http://ibpsa.org/proceedings/BS2011/P_1487.pdf)
To lancaIV.
----------------------------------
Hi there,
Thank you for your post.
Our OU electrolysis concept is not related in any way to the devices, described in your last post, but anyway this post is very interesting. Please give me some time to consider it carefully.
Lobby and -ism :
Positionpaper related a study from 2 swissian students :
https://www.bundesverband-infrarotheizung.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/111220_BemerkungStudieLuzern.pdf (https://www.bundesverband-infrarotheizung.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/111220_BemerkungStudieLuzern.pdf)
Prof. Dr. habil. H. Matschiner
page 3
So ist beispielsweise bekannt, dass eine 1800 W Heizung mit Glühdrähten und Keramikgrund nicht annähernd die Leistung einer 300 W IR-CNT-Heizung erbringt.
For example, it is known that a 1800 W heater with filaments and a ceramic base does not even come close to the output of a 300 W IR-CNT heater.
Physical in kcal output or physiological(=comfort) statement ?!
f.e. closed box : output/input 1800 W heater measurement
f.e. closed box : output/input 300 W heater measurement
6 times difference !
Primary energy per sqm/hour ?
Same problem :
"A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" teste method ?! ;)
To lancaIV.
-----------------------------------------------
Well, as if I can't understand something. It is a basic axiom of electric enginnering that for a standard solid resistor the consumed electric energy transforms entirely into Joule's heat (DC circuit). You claim that this is not true?
To lancaIV.
====================
You haven't read carefully my previous post.
Firstly, please read carefully and thoroughly my post of November 27, 2020, 10:17:39 AM. For your convenience it is given below. But please read it in original on page 25.
=====================
=====================
=====================
=====================
A hot discussion occurs in besslerwheel.com/forum. The title of the topic is just the same.
I am giving below again the text of our last post of October 18, 2020, 08:15:09 PM. The post's text is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.
====================
Let us assume that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
Therefore we can write down the inequalities
V x I x t > I x I x R x t (2) <=> V > I x R (3) <=> V/R > I (4).
-----------------------
The last inequality (4) unambiguously shows that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------
The above considerations are not very precise however. In order to be precise enough we have to introduce the quantities v an i. In other words, we must write down the equality
(V - v) x (I - i) x t = ((I - i) x (I - i) x R x t)+(Z x (I - i) x t x (HHV)) (5)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
v = minimum voltage necessary for the water-splitting electrolysis to begin
i = the related small decreasing of current I, caused by the presence of v.
And from here we can write down the inequalities
(V - v) x (I - i) x t > (I - i) x (I - i) x R x t (6) <=>
<=> V - v > (I -i) x R (7) <=> (V - v)/R > I - i (8).
-----------------------------------------
The last inequality (8) shows again that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
------------------------------------------
It is evident that if V is much bigger than v (and I much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and in this case inequality (8) can be replaced with inequality (4).
In one word, if equalities (1) and (5) are valid, then inequalities (4) and (8) are valid too. But this means that Ohm's law is not valid for liquid resistors.
----------------------------------------
Ohm's law is the most basic and most fundamental axiom of electric engineering. No Ohm's law -- no electric engineering.
==============================
Looking forward to your answer.
=========================
P.S. Number eight in brackets is replaced by some stupid head with black spectacles. Some error of the system.
To lancaIV. And here is also our post of November 24, 2020, 02:07:08 PM, p. 25. It is given below.
=================================
=================================
=================================
=================================
Let us focus again on pure theory.
---------------------------------------
Please have a look again at our post of October 31, 2020, 10:07:39 AM. For your convenience I am giving below the text of this post. (The text is surrounded/limited up and down by double dashed lines.)
===============================
Here is a continuation/variation of our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00. (Please look at besslerwheel.com/forum. Almost the same text in the related topic of the same title.)
------------------------------------------------------
1) Let us assume again that the energy consumed by the standard water-splitting electrolyzer is just equal to the sum of (a) the Joule's heat and (b) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. Therefore we can write down the equality
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1)
where
V = DC source voltage
I = DC current
R = Ohmic resistance
t = time
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
------------------------------------------------------
2) Let us decrease n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (V/n) x (I/n) x t < ((I/n) x (I/n) x R x t) + (Z x (I/n) x t x (HHV)) (2)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
-------------------------------------------------------
3) Now let us increase n times voltage V, that is,
V x I x t = (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x (HHV)) (1) <=>
<=> (nV) x (nI) x t > ((nI) x (nI) x R x t) + (Z x (nI) x t x (HHV)) (3)
where
n > 1
R = const.; for how to keep R constant please refer for example to our post of July 04, 2020, 01:38:09.
--------------------------------------------------------
4) In one word, it is evident that:
a) equality (1) shows that efficiency is equal to 1;
b) inequality (2) shows that efficiency is bigger than 1;
c) inequality (3) shows that efficiency is smaller than 1.
---------------------------------------------------------
5) Therefore by regulating the value of V we can regulate and control the value of efficiency. In other words, efficiency can be either (a) bigger than 1 or (b) equal to 1 or (c) smaller than 1. And this depends on the value of V.
---------------------------------------------------------
6) let us remind again that in order to be more precise we have to use V - v instead of V and I - i instead of I, respectively. (For v and i please refer to our previous post of October 18, 2020, 05:28:00.) But if V (and V/n too!) is much bigger than v (and I (and I/n too!) much bigger than i, respectively), then v and i can be neglected and therefore (1), (2) and (3) are perfectly correct.
----------------------------------------------------------
7) In one word, we proved theoretically again that the law of conservation of energy is not always valid for any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process.
---------------------------------------------------------
Do you have any theoretical (ONLY THEORETICAL!) objections against the text above? Is there any formula/logical construction in the text above which is incorrect and if yes, then why? Please focus solely and only on the analysis (line by line) of the text above.
================================
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Looking forward to your answer.
George1
Quote from: George1 on February 10, 2021, 09:57:03 AM
To lancaIV.
-----------------------------------------------
Well, as if I can't understand something. It is a basic axiom of electric enginnering that for a standard solid resistor the consumed electric energy transforms entirely into Joule's heat (DC circuit). You claim that this is not true?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating)
Joule heating, also known as
resistive,
resistance, or
Ohmic heating, is the process by which the passage of an electric current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current) through a conductor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductor_(material)) produces heat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat).
Joule's first law, also known as the Joule–Lenz law,
[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating#cite_note-BSE-1) states that the power (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)) of heating generated by an electrical conductor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductor) is proportional to the product of its resistance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistance_and_conductance) and the square of the current:
P ∝ I 2 R {\displaystyle P\propto I^{2}R} (https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/eebd9f8c2cf3ac1419096c3555c6dcc560db3d63 (https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/media/math/render/svg/eebd9f8c2cf3ac1419096c3555c6dcc560db3d63)) Joule heating affects the whole electric conductor, unlike the Peltier effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier_effect) which transfers heat from one electrical junction to another.
But : after theory change !
In 1841 and 1842, subsequent experiments showed that the amount of heat generated was proportional to the chemical energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_energy) used in the voltaic pile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaic_pile) that generated the template This led Joule to reject the caloric theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caloric_theory) (at that time the dominant theory) in favor of the mechanical theory of heat (according to which heat is another form of energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy)).
[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating#cite_note-APS-2) Resistive heating was independently studied by Heinrich Lenz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Lenz) in 1842.
[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating#cite_note-BSE-1) Speaking/writing about "Axiom" :
would this mean "universal" ,
the industry ,worldwide, would has have concentrated their production over the centuries to one,
THE PERFECT ELECTRIC TO HEAT CONVERTER,shortly:heater device
what did not happen ! ::)
A. functional application,heater output
B. temperature from heater surface
C. applied wire material ,dis-/advantages
D. far/near infrared radiation
..........
Some unconformal "very efficient heater" news during the last decade :
Measurement error (analog instruments versus electric sensoric instruments), ? ,
or wire configuration/material(mix)related , ? , :
10%,50%,100%,500% more efficiency claimed ? Measurement error preservation : 10%,25%,50 % ?
I.
http://www.rexresearch.com/suekran/suekran.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/suekran/suekran.htm)
A Denizli based company FUNIKA Teknoloji A.S. has invented a hybrid heating material called HIM to generate high heating energy using with low electricity. This new material is a chemical compound of many organic and inorganic materials so that it substitutes resistance wires used to convert electricity to heating energy to heat air, water or oil. It can be used in many areas such as; - heating homes and offices, - heating air, water or oil, - in electrical appliances using resistance wires, bars or plates, - to generate steam etc...
The official report has been given by Energy Dept. of Mugla University on 20th Feb. 2008 stating that coefficient of performance (COP) of HIM is 2.25 times more than standard resistance wires.
::) C.O.P. for a wire ? ;)
II. conventional (physics formulas) electric consume by given heat output volume ?
Ambiental,outer, temperature ,before/during heating process not given ! :-\
https://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=8843 (https://www.wireservice.ca/index.php?module=News&func=display&sid=8843)
Al Bernstein, Inventor:
»The sensational input from the public grid or from a small PV-system for 150 m2 heated areas, (calculated with 40-60 watts per square meter complying to new standards) like for a new single-family home or a suite, is ± 700 Watt/h (0,7kW/h, or ± 2389 BTU/h), which is below that of a kettle or a hair dryer - the output of the radiators / underfloor-heating system is ± 8 - 10 kW or ± 34130 BTU heating energy.
No additional auxiliary energy, heat pumps, oil, gas, pellet, fuel type burner and no approval from the energy provider is required (small consumers).
The constant system temperature of the radiators with max. 80 ° C correspond to the norm 90/70/20, while the constant floor heating system temperature (temperature of the heat carrier cells) is max. 50 ° C.«
34130 BTU equates x 0,293 = 10 000 W
III.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20030424&CC=US&NR=2003077078A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=4&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20030424&CC=US&NR=2003077078A1&KC=A1)
[0015] The present invention achieves low thermal conductivity, has a substantially uniform structure and allows for rapid heating efficiency. Energy savings of up to about 75% are realized over conventional heater elements and radiating infrared methods.
IV.
company Unites ,Ucraine, silicium-carbide wire
" You claim that this is not true? "
I do remark,I do not claim anything !
Related room-heating systems I remarked also :
Dr.Helmut Reichelt "thermotexx" 2 W/sqm area electric consume bio-resonant heating
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.slimlife.eu/reichelt_heizung.html (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.slimlife.eu/reichelt_heizung.html)
Gerhard Beier 4 W/sqm area electric consume bio-resonant heating
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=21&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20080925&CC=DE&NR=202008007815U1&KC=U1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=21&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20080925&CC=DE&NR=202008007815U1&KC=U1#)
For example, a room with a floor area of 20 m2 with approx. 80 Watts at a voltage of 35 volts to a body-friendly warmth of 18-20 ° C permanently.
Peter Filip 6 W/sqm area electric consume Graphit IR-heat panel
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=DE&NR=202008006432U1&KC=U1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20080724&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=DE&NR=202008006432U1&KC=U1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20080724&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)
The inventive applications mentioned above have improved the radiating element by five times from the original position. The surface without these applications required 1000 watts of energy in the first laboratory tests and thanks to the inventive aspects, the energy requirement could be reduced to 270 watts in order to achieve the same effectiveness.
- The applied electronic control of the core temperature of the heat conducting layer leads to further energy savings which increase up to 40%. The continuous measurements of the power consumption of the 270 watt element have shown a constant energy consumption of 150–180 watt / h.
Disputing about laws or applied "AXIOM"s also related :
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann-Statistik (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann-Statistik)
Happy reading wishing
OCWL
p.s.: " Let us focus again on pure theory."
Then work with Physics literature and search for all the applied theory related laws and to each law given conditioning
But included chemistry literature !
To lancaIV.
---------------------------------------
1) Interesting post, very interesting! Thank you for it. BUT:
1A) Most of these concepts (not to say all of them) are quite expensive, if applied practically.
1B) Many of these concepts are actually working hypotheses, whose validity is not completely proved. There are still too many unknown things, contradictions, ambiguous and uncertain theoretical and/or experimental results, etc.
2) While our standard DC water-splitting electrolysis OU concept is simple for understanding and simple and cheap for practical realization.
https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses
2.4 Water splitting with the pulse electrolysis
Many new patents on pulse electrolysis appeared in 1970-1990 (Horvath, 1976 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B16); Spirig, 1978 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B39); Themu, 1980 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B41); Puharich, 1983 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B32); Meyer, 1986 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B23); Meyer, 1989 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B24); Meyer, 1992a, 1992b (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B25); Santilli, 2001 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B34); Chambers, 2002 (https://www.intechopen.com/books/electrolysis/water-electrolysis-with-inductive-voltage-pulses#B5)) stating to be invented over-effective electrolysis (i.e. the current efficiency is higher than 100%).
The water splitting scheme described in these patents initiated a huge interest, but nobody has succeeded in interpreting these schemes and their performance mechanisms up to now, and what is more important, nobody has succeeded to repeated patented devices experimentally as well.
Probably by the above inventors patent applications in their citing documents or cited documents similar solutions to find !
Good luck
OCWL
To lancaIV.
-----------------------
Thanks a lot for your reply. It's a real pleasure to correspond with you! :)
Seems to be a bunch of sophisticated devices and concepts. Need some time to consider everything carefully.
Keep in touch.
Quote from: George1 on February 11, 2021, 08:21:30 AM
To lancaIV.
---------------------------------------
1) Interesting post, very interesting! Thank you for it. BUT:
1A) Most of these concepts (not to say all of them) are quite expensive, if applied practically.
What is "in geral","for You" quite expensive ?
In comparison : old building insulation costs !?
The possibility to reach "low-e standart" and home mobility/autonomy ?
1B) Many of these concepts are actually working hypotheses, whose validity is not completely proved. There are still too many unknown things, contradictions, ambiguous and uncertain theoretical and/or experimental results, etc.
The Filip IR-heater is/was commercial available ! 375 Euros/14 sqm area one panel
About the others I can not say much,only that after the "thermotex"-fail there was an other trial then called "Moletherm" https://www.m-therm.com/ (https://www.m-therm.com/)
2) While our standard DC water-splitting electrolysis OU concept is simple for understanding and simple and cheap for practical realization.
When we think about hydrolysis or hydrogen generation
https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/117497.html (https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/117497.html)
(7) It is sodium cycle (see http://judbarovski.livejournal.com/114930.html (http://judbarovski.livejournal.com/114930.html) ):
(a) 2 * (Na + H2O = NaOH + ½ H2)
(b) 2 NaOH + CO2 = Na2CO3 +H2O
(c) Na2CO3 + 2 C = (1100 C, 1 atm.) = 2 Na +3 CO – 801 kJ, when all sulfuric dirties being here in solid state can be simple avoided from liquid Na and gaseous CO
(d) 3 CO + 1.5 O2 = 3 CO2 + 841 kJ. 841 * 0.62 – 801 = - 280 kJ = 4.6 kg C/kgH2 and produces 841 * 0.4 /3.6/2 = 46.7 kWh electricity with net profit by its sale = 46.7 * (6 cents – ~2.8 (O&M)) =USD 1.5/kg H2
And totally:
H2O + 2 C + 1.5 O2 = H2 + 2 CO2, in sum consumes 12 + 4.6 = 16.6 kg C = USD 1.33 for coal + ~ 20% - 1.5 sold is electricity net profit.
It is USD 0.095/kg H2 being practically free, with 44 kg CO2 exhaust can be profitably utilized as in industry (e.g. for axalic acid production) as in agriculture for plants feeding.
USD 0.095/kg H2 : that we can call cheap,is it not ?
( on-site green-houses,44 Kg CO2 good for plants their growth )
To lancaIV.
-------------------------------
Hi there,
1) But I am not arguing with you, dear colleague! :) Everything you have written is correct. Need only some a little bigger periods of time to consider carefully and understand thoroughly the essence of your massive clusters of technology information. (The latter is good, but it takes time to "swallow".) :)
2) I would like to ask a question related to mechanics. Please have a look at the mechanic section, if possible.
The same topic and the same title -- please follow our hot discussion in besslerwheel.com/forum. An army of idiots against a single expert warrior. :)
Any comments, questions, recommendations, which are related to our standard DC water-splitting electrolysis OU concept?
A hot discussion in besslerwheel.com/forum. The same topic and the same title. Our opponents totally lost psychic balance. They try to reject the Joule's heat formula, which is one of the basic axioms of electric engineering! This is really a shocking absurd!
Any comments, questions, recommendations?
Ok, let us recapitulate our many-months correspondence and summarize it in one single text. And this text is given below.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1) Let us connect a standard DC source to a standard conductor thus forming a circuit.
--------------------------------------
2) We can write down the following two related equalities
V = I x R (1) <=> V x I x t = I x I x R x t (2),
where
V = voltage of the DC source
I = direct current, which flows through the conductor
R = Ohmic resistance of the conductor
t = time period, within which direct current flows through the conductor
----------------------------------------
3) Equality (1) is the mathematical expression of the Ohm's law.
-----------------------------------------
4) Equality (2) is the mathematical expression of the Joule's law of heating.
----------------------------------------
5) Equality (2) can be derived from equality (1) by multiplying both sides of (1) by (I x t).
-----------------------------------------
6) And vice versa, equality (1) can be derived from equality (2) by dividing both sides of (2) by (I x t).
-----------------------------------------
7) Equalities (1) and (2) are absolutely valid for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor.
-----------------------------------------
8) BUT standard liquid and gaseous (and even "vacuum"(!)) conductors have some special features, which are as follows.
----------------------------------------
8A) Liquid conductors. The minimum DC voltage, which is necessary for a standard DC water-splitting electrolysis to occur, is
equal to 1.23 V.
----------------------------------------
8B) Gaseous conductors. The minimum DC voltage, which is necessary for a spark (or arc) to occur, is equal to 2 kV,
where 2 kV = 2,000 V.
---------------------------------------
8C) "Vacuum" conductors. The minimum DC voltage, which is necessary for a direct current to flow through vacuum, is equal to 400 kV, where 400 kV = 400,000 V. This is the case of the so called cold-cathode emission.
---------------------------------------
Note. As if some kind of approximate and (for the present) vague tendency is on its way to be shaped: the lesser the mass dencity and/or hardness of a conductor, the bigger the minimum DC voltage, which is necessary for a direct current to flow through this same conductor.
--------------------------------------
9) A certain portion of hydrogen is generated while standard DC water-splitting electrolysis takes place. And if this portion of hydrogen is burned/exploded, then a certain portion of heat H is generated. Therefore we can write down the equality
H = Z x I x t x HHV (3),
where
H = heat, which is generated if the released hydrogen is burned/exploded
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
I = direct current, which flows through the electrolyte while standard DC water-splitting electrolysis takes place
t = time period, within which standard DC water-splitting electrolysis takes place
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen
---------------------------------------
10) Let us add (3) to the right side of (2) thus forming the inequality
V x I x t < (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x HHV) (4).
---------------------------------------
11) As a further development of our basic concept let us consider the standard process of recharging of a standard car's battery. In this case in addition to the releasing of hydrogen we store electric energy E. And further, (1) if we disconnect the charger from the already fully charged battery and (2) if we connect the already fully charged battery to a standard copper wire load for example (thus forming a circuit), and (3) if we discharge the battery, then the stored electric energy E transforms entirely into a second additional portion of Joule's heat K. Therefore we can add K to the right side of (4) thus forming the inequality
V x I x t < (I x I x R x t) + (Z x I x t x HHV) + (K) (5).
--------------------------------------
12) In one word, inequalities (4) and (5) unambiguously show that any standard DC water-splitting electrolysis process can be considered as a heater, whose efficiency is bigger than 1.
--------------------------------------
Everything seems to be clear now, doesn't it?
Looking forward to your answers, comments, recommendations, questions.
Symbol 8) in our previuos post to be read as eight (item eight). Some defect of the system transformed eight into an yellow head with black spectacles.
Any comments, questions, recommendations, related to our last post?
OHMIIC AND NON OHMIC RESISTANCE
The two most common types of electric resistors are carbon resistors and wire
wound resistors. The amount of current that will flow through these types of
resistors, is in proportion to the voltage applied to them. They function in accord
with ohms law. (E = I x R, R = E / I and I = E / R) with the exception that their
electrical resistance increases when their temperature is increased.
E is electromotive force and is measured in units of volts (V).
I is electric current FLOW and is measured in amperes (A).
R is resistance to electric current flow and is measured in units of ohms (Ω).
An electric current flowing through these common types of resistors causes heating
of the resistor.
The heating of these common types of resistors is in proportion to the magnitude of
the current flowing through the resistor.
But ......
Their resistance increases when their temperature increases.
If the heat generated by the electric current flow, is allowed to dissipate into the
surrounding environment, the resistor may reach an equilibrium between the heat
produced and the heat dissipated. The magnitude of its electrical resistance is then
stabilized.
Common resistors are rated in terms of the power as heat energy they can dissipate
(their wattage). Generally the larger the physical size of a resistor, the more heat it
can rapidly dissipate (the more wattage it can handle). This is because a larger surface
area is in contact with a greater amount of the surrounding air. Heat transfer is more
rapid when that contact area is greater.
A common electric resistor component AT A GIVEN TEMPERATURE, behaves in accord
with ohm's equations ( E = I x R, R = E / I and I = E / R ). The amount of electric
current that flows through a given resistor, is then in dependent upon the applied
voltage. Its resistance is "ohmic".
Other wise it is "non ohmic", in that Ohm's law does not account for change in its
resistance due to change in temperature.
Example:
A 40 watt, filament type (incandescent) light bulb passes a current of around 0.33 A)
WHEN IT IS AT ITS OPERATING TEMPERATURE.
( P power = E x I), (40 watts / 120 volts equals about 0.33 A)
Its resistance is about 363.6 Ω
WHEN IT IS AT ITS OPERATING TEMPERATURE.
(E / I = R), (120 V / 0.33 A = 363 Ω) .
Its resistance when MEASURED at room temperature is around 0.03 Ω.
120 V / 0.03 Ω = 4000 A. This would result in a (very brief) 480,000 watt power
dissipation (120 V x 4000 A = 480,000 watts), if the the supply system could deliver
that peak power draw before the filament reaches its operating temperature and
AT WHICH TIME its resistance has increased to 363.6 Ω
When operated at very low voltage and power input, a 40 watt incandescent lamp
behaves in accord with ohm's equations. When operated at high voltages and power
input, it is said to behave in a "non ohmic" manner. The current flowing through it
at a given voltage, has greatly decreased because of its high operating temperature.
Its resistance increased.
Electrolytes behave in accord with ohmic equations at a given temperature except that
there are also chemical reactions which affect and / or affected by temperature and resistance.
But also, also .....
the electrical resistance DOES change with simple temperature change.
Electric current through the electrolyte will decrease as the electrolytes resistance
has increased due to increase in its temperature. But the chemical activity of the
electrolyte will be affected by temperature as well. Many kinds of chemical reactions
occur faster at higher temperatures than they would occur at lower temperatures.
It seems complex, but to get past a need for temperature stabilization of an electrolyte
during experimentation, one may simply measure power as electric wattage input into
the system, while also accounting for the duration, in time, of the electrolysis.
Measure...
Power input (wattage). Use a watt meter.
Time duration of the electrolysis. Use a timer.
Temperature of the electrolyte before electrolysis. Use a thermometer.
Volume of the electrolyte. Use a measuring cup.
Temperature of the electrolyte at the end of the electrolysis Use a thermometer.
Volume of electrolyte remaining after electrolysis. Use a measuring cup.
Temperature of the evolved gases (including water vapor) at the finish time of the
electrolysis. Use a thermometer.
Volume of the H and O (including water vapor) while under normal atmospheric pressure
and also while at the same temperature as the electrolyte was at, at the end of the
electrolysis.
Remove the water vapor. Pass the gas mixture through a freezing pipe.
How much water was removed from the electrolyte as water vapor. Thaw the ice and
measure its volume with a measuring cup
Consider this thawed volume of water, to have been heated along with the rest of the
electrolyte and add these calories gained, to those gained from during the rest of
electrolyte's heating during the electrolysis.
Volume of the H and O at regular atmospheric pressure, with out the water vapor, but
also while knowing the temperature of the H and O..
Calculate the calories present within the gas which were gained by the gas during
its temperature increase during the electrolysis.
Calculate the Temperature of the high heat combustion of the H and O produced and
the calories that combustion will produce.
OR...
look all these things up in a reference source.
To Floor.
===================
I know that you аre a touchy man and that you get angry very easily. But risking to insult you seriously again I would repeat again: YOU ARE NOT READING MY POSTS AT ALL! AND THIS IS NOT A DIALOGUE AND THIS IS NOT AN HONEST DISCUSSION! THIS IS YOUR MONOLOGUE!
===================
In our post of January 03, 2021, 03:48:09 PM (this post's text has been published many times before in this topic) it is CLEARLY WRITTEN THAT: CONSTANT PURE WATER AND COOLING AGENT SUPPLY COULD KEEP CONSTANT THE ELECTROLYTE'S TEMPERATURE, HEAT EXCHANGE, MASS AND OHMIC RESISTANCE, RESPECTIVELY.
===================
AM I CLEAR NOW? READ CAREFULLY MY POSTS!!!!!
Yes it is obvious that you do not understand that it is not necessary
to cool the electrolyte, in order that one may conduct the experiment.
In fact cooling the electrolyte would complicate the measurements done
in the experiment.
I understand that you have stated that you do not intend to do experiment.
So your whole topic is without merit anyway, except for the input
from some posters other than your self.
To Floor.
======================
======================
FIRSTLY.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
-----------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 25th time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
-----------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 24th time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
======================
======================
SECONDLY.
The three equalities V = I x R (1), V x I x t = I x I x R x t (2) and H = Z x I x t x HHV (3) (that is, Ohm's law, Joule's law of heating and Faraday's laws of electrolysis, respectively) have been validated experimentally millions of times within a period of 200 years. And you reject this simple obvious truth!
Only on word, yes or no ?
Dream on.
To Floor.
======================
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 26th time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
----------------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 26th time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
======================
CHECKMATE!
https://endalldisease.com/hyperdrive-free-energy-gerard-morin/
Really amazing link! Where to search for detailed instructions for how to build this device? Any information?
Any comments related to our standard DC water-splitting electrolysis OU concept?
The text below can be found in many of our previous posts. Anyway let us repeat it again.
-----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively.
Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
------------------------------
Please read carefully our previous post.
-----------------------------------------
The key to a successful understanding of our OU concept consists of two consequent steps.
-----------------------------------------
Step 1. Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solved problem. (Please read carefully the first part of our previous post.)
-----------------------------------------
Step 2. Our further development of Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution. (Please read carefully the second part of our previous post.)
Deep silence again? :) What happens here? No brave members in this forum, it's evident. :)
Please look again at our post of March 05, 2021, 02:25:15 PM. A copy of this post is given below.
================
The text below can be found in many of our previous posts. Anyway let us repeat it again.
-----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
Solution: The power consumed is equal to 31.86 W.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) Let us calculate the current I. The current I is given by I = (m)/(Z x t) = 7.9 A,
where
m = 0.0001kg of hydrogen
Z = electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen
t = 1200 s
3) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = I x I x R x t = (7.9 A) x (7.9 A) x (0.5 Ohm) x (1200 s) = 37446 J = outlet energy 1.
4) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2.
5) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
5A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 37446 J + 14200 J = 51646 J
5B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
6) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 51646 J/38232 J = 1.35 <=> COP = 1.35 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to COP = 1.37, that is, we have again COP > 1.
------------------------------
1) We (our team) have created 11 (eleven) technology breakthroughs.
------------------------------
2) Two of the above mentioned 11 technology breakthroughs (entitled "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", respectively) are released freely here in this forum.
------------------------------
3) Our third technology breakthrough is an entirely new and revolutionary electric technology, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 (fifteen) times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery.
------------------------------
4) As a next step we would like to sell our third technology breakthrough and/or to enter a certain kind of collaboration of mutual benefit for production of our third technology breakthrough on a large industrial scale.
https://www.ideaconnection.com/ (https://www.ideaconnection.com/)
Do there your offer :
3) Our third technology breakthrough is an entirely new and revolutionary electric technology, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 (fifteen) times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery
Is this to understand like :
https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/battery-characteristics/battery-capacity#:~:text=%22Battery%20capacity%22%20is%20a%20measure,battery%20under%20certain%20specified%20conditions (https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/battery-characteristics/battery-capacity#:~:text=%22Battery%20capacity%22%20is%20a%20measure,battery%20under%20certain%20specified%20conditions).
rated Amp-h + INVENTION x 2 up to 15 times ?
Prediction example : 24 Volt x rated 85 Amp-h + your/group device/technique :
24 Volt x [ rated 85 Amp-h x (2-15)]
battery lifetime in charge cycles a. without / b. with INVENTION ,tested ? Experience ?
EXCLUSIVITY ? Patent applied ?! Utility model(l) application applied ?! Demonstration ready ?
Search machine : Venture Capital / forum / exposition !
or international inventor fairs/expositions like :
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.iena.de/ (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.iena.de/)
https://inventions-geneva.ch/en/home/ (https://inventions-geneva.ch/en/home/)
LET US PUSH FORWARD TOGETHER THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
=================
1) We (our team) have created 11 (eleven) technology breakthroughs.
------------------------------
2) Two of the above mentioned 11 technology breakthroughs (entitled "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", respectively) are released freely here in this forum.
------------------------------
3) Our third technology breakthrough is an entirely new and revolutionary electric technology, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 (fifteen) times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery.
------------------------------
4) Our third technology breakthrough is experimentally proved. Our third technology breakthrough has a working prototype
(accompanied by a detailed description of its principle of operation).
------------------------------
5) We would like either (a) to sell our third technology breakthrough only once or (b) to enter a suitable kind of collaboration of mutual benefit for production of our third technology breakthrough on a large industrial scale.
=================
LET US PUSH FORWARD TOGETHER THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
To lancaIV.
--------------------------
1) You wrote:"Prediction example : 24 Volt x rated 85 Amp-h + your/group device/technique : 24 Volt x [ rated 85 Amp-h x (2-15)]". Yes, that's it.
2) Please have a look at our last post. It is slightly modified (if compared to the post before our last post).
3) Please give me some time to consider carefully your last post. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
1) We (our team) have created 11 (eleven) technology breakthroughs.
------------------------------
2) Two of the above mentioned 11 technology breakthroughs (entitled "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", respectively) are released freely here in this forum.
------------------------------
3) Our third technology breakthrough is an entirely new and revolutionary electric technology, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 (fifteen) times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery.
------------------------------
4) Our third technology breakthrough is experimentally proved. Our third technology breakthrough has a working prototype
(accompanied by a detailed description of its principle of operation).
------------------------------
5) Our third technology breakthrough is not patented. Instead we would like to sell our third technology breakthrough as a trade secret and/or to enter a suitable kind of collaboration of mutual benefit for production of our third technology breakthrough on a large industrial scale.
------------------------------
6) Contact email address: randdgroup34@gmail.com.
To lancaIV.
----------------------------
This IdeaConnection link seems to be very interesting and useful. Thank you for sending it. Keep considering it. I'll write to you in the nearest future. (And welcome to our team! :) (Not pressing, only suggesting. :)))
What me as "industrial investor " would interest :
Most important points as question: a. Why this spread : 2x up tp to 15 times ? Physical arguments !
lead battery 80 Wh/Kg to 160Wh/Kg-1200 Wh/kg ?
lithium battery 200 Wh/Kg to 400 Wh/Kg - 3000 Wh/Kg ?
b. The battery life in charge cycles ,comparison with/and without device ? Shorter,same ?
f.e. lead carbon battery 1500 charge cycles x conventional Wh / improved Wh !?
From this amplified capacity : possible " Deep of Discharge,DoD" ?
https://www.mkbattery.com/blog/marine-batteries-deep-cycle-or-cranking (https://www.mkbattery.com/blog/marine-batteries-deep-cycle-or-cranking)
CRANKING BATTERIES
In order to get the burst of power needed to start an engine, a cranking battery needs to deliver a large current for a short amount of time--often 75-400 amps for anywhere between 5 and 15 seconds, depending on the boat's engine. Lead acid cranking batteries have more numerous, thinner lead plates than a deep cycle battery. This increased surface area allows for the flow of higher amps through the battery. However, if cranking batteries are frequently discharged to the same level as deep cycle batteries (which would happen if you also use cranking batteries for trolling and keeping systems going throughout the day), their lifespan is greatly reduced.
DEEP CYCLE BATTERIES
Deep cycle batteries are made to be able to frequently discharge and recharge. They're also built to give a lower amount of energy for a longer period of time. With thicker lead plates and reduced surface area, they're sturdy and made to discharge down to 20% regularly. Deep cycle batteries are great for the many energy needs of your boat after you've already started it, including navigation, lights, music, radar, etc. However, if they're asked to provide the starting charge for an engine, they won't always perform. It will depend on the battery's cranking amps rating (or the cold cranking amps), which is usually fairly low for deep cycle batteries.
Idea, patent/utility model : working out
Hundreds of batteries experimenting/partial : destroying to search for physical limits ,thousands of tests :
lab work for save and repeatable results !
+/- five years up to ten years before market entree
Lab R&D and ready to commerce and selling : Sony ( and other ) battery disaster !
https://www.google.com/search?q=sony+battery+accidents&rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT930PT930&oq=sony+battery+accidents&aqs=chrome..69i57.8336j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=sony+battery+accidents&rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT930PT930&oq=sony+battery+accidents&aqs=chrome..69i57.8336j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
Actually the preview are 500+ Wh/Kg batteries,also improveable ?
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/650_whkg_1400_whl_recharg_batt_new_era_elect_mobility_ymikhaylik_0.pdf (https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/650_whkg_1400_whl_recharg_batt_new_era_elect_mobility_ymikhaylik_0.pdf)
We do not know if such kind of battery is in labs actually in R&D work ,with such potential :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20021231&CC=US&NR=6501093B1&KC=B1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20021231&CC=US&NR=6501093B1&KC=B1)
GOALS FOR ADVANCED BATTERIES AND ENSOR (TM).
Time Frame 1992 1994 2000 1998
Type of Lead Acid Na-S-Ni Li Polymer ENSOR
Battery Hydride Li-Al-FeS2
kw hrs/kg .025-.040 .080-.100 .200 15 means 15 000 Wh/Kg
compared 12 900 Wh/Kg gasoline (petrol)
Range Miles 40-100 150-200 300 600
Recharge 6-8 <6 3-6 3-6 Time hrs
Life yrs 3-5 5 10 >15
Cost $/kw hr/kg $120-125 <$40-150 <$100 <$25.
Lower cost capacitor production https://patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=13385 (https://patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=13385) for http://ultrabattery.com/technology/ultrabattery-performance-benefits/ (http://ultrabattery.com/technology/ultrabattery-performance-benefits/)
Popularizing hybrid vehicle that cooperating battery and ICE is more promising than EV; The technology of hybrid vehicle is matured, fuel saving can attained 40%, Toyota hybrid cars Prius had been produced ten millions in last two decades. Hybrid vehicles mainly utilize nickel hydride batteries, storing energy is several ten times fewer than that of pure EV, without necessity of charging pile in addition; However, the high cost and short life of battery are still the bottlenecks for its popularization; Nowadays the price of a battery pack of Prius is $3000 USD, customers demand working life of battery over ten years, but Toyota can only provide eight years guarantee of working. Such price and working life have reached the limitation for nickel hydride battery, it still cannot be popularized.
Ultrabattery : the (here: lead-)battery with your device improving/improveable ?
The market beside electric mobility clearly home and industry battery banks !
Renewable energy surplus production (negative price ) storage !
Some coming improvements electricity storage related :
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.carmart.ch%2Fumwelt%2Fpreise-fuer-batterien-von-elektroautos-fallen-massiv-in-10-jahren-90%2F (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.carmart.ch%2Fumwelt%2Fpreise-fuer-batterien-von-elektroautos-fallen-massiv-in-10-jahren-90%2F)
https://aluminiuminsider.com/chinese-researchers-develop-aluminium-graphene-battery-charges-seconds/ (https://aluminiuminsider.com/chinese-researchers-develop-aluminium-graphene-battery-charges-seconds/)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321850509_Ultrafast_all-climate_aluminum-graphene_battery_with_quarter-million_cycle_life (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321850509_Ultrafast_all-climate_aluminum-graphene_battery_with_quarter-million_cycle_life)
https://www.google.com/search?q=biosolar+50000+cycles&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m (https://www.google.com/search?q=biosolar+50000+cycles&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-m)
In the 90´the industrial production prices,now : 2021 ? :
kw hrs/kg .025-.040 .080-.100 .200 15
Cost $/kw hr/kg $120-125 <$40-150 <$100 <$25.
For each Kg battery production price
+- $ 3-4 $ 4- 19 $500
Another End90´ R&D device :
http://www.bticcs.com/ (http://www.bticcs.com/) a battery charger with battery life improvement : up to 5 times,for example 1000 to 5000 charge cycles
+ fast(er) charging time
The industry works often with 900% and more production-endconsumer price margin calculation !
How much is the "capacity improver" production costs estimation ?
A device for the industrial process or as equipment to couple to the battery/-bank ?
Who is interested ,as VC or industrial investor,in battery/improver technology ,an example :
monetary backpacker from Aquion 1
Aquion declared bankruptcy in March after raising a total of $190 million in venture capital and debt
from investors including
Bill Gates, Gentry Venture Partners, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, Foundation Capital, Bright Capital, Advanced Technology Ventures, Trinity Capital Investment and CapX Partners, Yung's Enterprise, and Nick and Joby Pritzker.
and Aquion 2
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT930PT930&ei=HlNLYMX4MJGjUPKBksAG&q=salt+water+battery+aquion&oq=water+battery+aquion&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIGCAAQFhAeOgoILhCwAxBDEJMCOgcIABCwAxBDOgcILhCwAxBDOgQIABATOggIABAWEB4QEzoICAAQCBANEB5QroQBWLuZAWC4qAFoAXACeACAAXqIAeMGkgEDMS43mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBCsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT930PT930&ei=HlNLYMX4MJGjUPKBksAG&q=salt+water+battery+aquion&oq=water+battery+aquion&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIGCAAQFhAeOgoILhCwAxBDEJMCOgcIABCwAxBDOgcILhCwAxBDOgQIABATOggIABAWEB4QEzoICAAQCBANEB5QroQBWLuZAWC4qAFoAXACeACAAXqIAeMGkgEDMS43mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBCsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz)
George1,I am not an "industrial investor" !
I only show you some points which you should have in your "to do-list" before knocking on VC or industrial companies their doors !
And often they,the VC partners by themself ,are not technologic up to date,but have their network to and with many Universities or companies global and will do strategical questions which will have in-situ become answered !
Question/answer competition !
And they also work with service providers whose are observing in detective manner "search machine" inputs related guies like "George1" or other and to complete a person (team) psychologic/competence profile ( similar curriculum vitae ) !
Look here ,a little more professionell performance exposition :
https://adgex.com/ (https://adgex.com/)
R&D began 2007,we have now 2021 https://adgex.com/energyBRICK (https://adgex.com/energyBRICK) energyBRICK Timeline
https://adgex.com/EnergyBrick/Complex (https://adgex.com/EnergyBrick/Complex) https://adgex.com/EnergyBrick/Unit (https://adgex.com/EnergyBrick/Unit)
25 000 charge cycles
I worked with my father (R.I.P.) in his M&A trials and consultance ! I.N.S.E.A.D./Fontainebleau -MBA old school knowledge inside !
To lancaIV.
------------------------------
Hi lancaIV,
Welcome to our team! :)
1) Thanks a lot for your last post. It contains extremely valuable information and straight-to-the-focus-directing questions and thoughts.
Please give me some time to consider your last post carefully. (By the way as if you have the ability and the gift to be an industrial manager. :))
2) We modified slightly the text of our previous post. Please look at item 6 of our next post. Some recommendations/instructions?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
LET US PUSH FORWARD TOGETHER THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
=================
1) We (our team) have created 11 (eleven) technology breakthroughs.
------------------------------
2) Two of the above mentioned 11 technology breakthroughs (entitled "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", respectively) are released freely here in this forum.
------------------------------
3) Our third technology breakthrough is an entirely new and revolutionary electric technology, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 (fifteen) times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery.
------------------------------
4) Our third technology breakthrough is experimentally proved. Our third technology breakthrough has a working prototype
(accompanied by a detailed description of its principle of operation).
------------------------------
5) Our third technology breakthrough is not patented. Instead we would like to sell our third technology breakthrough as a trade secret and/or to enter a suitable kind of collaboration of mutual benefit for production of our third technology breakthrough on a large industrial scale.
------------------------------
6) Besides we would like to enter a suitable kind of collaboration of mutual benefit for a practical realization and for an industrial production on a large industrial scale of our first two pieces of theoretical research, (a) which are entitled "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" and (b) which are released freely here in this forum.
------------------------------
7) Contact email address: randdgroup34@gmail.com.
=================
LET US PUSH FORWARD TOGETHER THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
The text below is a slightly modified, shortened and more precise version of our post of March 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM.
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
kk So "you" want 20 times overunity HHO.. here it is....
Here is a new (4 years ago still active) company from New Zeland with locked down HHO tech,
they claim 20 overunity...I think these guys are just greedy bastards... get this, thay want to
partner up with a "major organisation with the financial strength"... what wankers...
Acca ...
https://www.h2innovativelab.com/ (https://www.h2innovativelab.com/)
[/font]
[/font]
Due to the nature of this highly disruptive technology the full identity of the parent company is
discreetly concealed from the public. However patent numbers are provided to approved
applications.
Galvanic Enhanced Electrolysis energy generation provides clean, safe, self-
sustaining electricity unlimited to geographic location.
A sustainable hydrogen based energy bridging the gap for hydrogen to become the ultimate fuel
of the future.
Our objective is to assign the patents and concealed intellectual property to a major
organisation with the financial strength.
H2IL discovered a method of combining energy at an ionic level, enabling the release of bound
hydrogen by harvesting a natural galvanic energy stored in abundant and low cost metals. The
energy content of the hydrogen is many time greater than the input catalyst electricity. This has
proven to enable self-sustaining energy generation with very little metal consumption.
The H2IL generation method also uses an energy stored in certain metals but abundant in supply.
A small amount of self generated electricity will excite and sustain a hydrogen generating
reaction. Energy is not being created, which is impossible, but simply transferred from one form
to another and supporting the laws of thermodynamics.
Conventional electrolysis of water with a 60% efficiency is not new. However, Galvanic Enhanced
Electrolysis is breaking through the efficiency barrier, enabling self-powering energy generation
and paving the way for the clean fuel of the future.
H2IL Galvanic Enhanced Electrolysis technology is fully developed over a 14 year period with
confidential I/P supporting the secured intellectual property for a robust technology acquisition.
Who Are We:
'H2 Innovation Lab' is a subsidiary branch of a manufacture and exporting company based in
Auckland New Zealand. Since 1996 the parent company had successfully patented and exported
specialized electronic analytical equipment into 71 major countries. Receiving product and
leadership awards, hosting international seminars and popular presence at trade shows
throughout the world. Since 1980 this innovative research and development company have
been dedicated to providing solutions to many technical challenges.
It is not the C.O.P. number which imports !
Yes,it is the hydrogen production price and gram(m) per minute/second process time and hydrogen purity !
What happens here ,water (mainly hydrogen + oxygen ) + tab substance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4X2h6YTv80 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4X2h6YTv80)
next factor : temperature
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbrP8q9lYA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbrP8q9lYA)
next factor : active area
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWN8xVuzuFI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWN8xVuzuFI)
active material in use :
water + palladium/platin/silver or chem-alloy ?
grain = active surface per gram,powder = active surface per gram ,nano-powder = active surface per gram
water in movement / electrolyt in movement ( s/whirl,centrifuge)
Here's what I found on my own ...
To Acca.
-------------------------------
Hi there,
You wrote that I "....want 20 times overunity HHO....". Please let me tell you that I have never mentioned anything of the sort! :) But anyway the link you have sent is interesting. Please give me some time to consider it carefully.
Regards,
To lancaIV.
------------------------------
Your analysis of Acca's post is interesting. Need some time however to understand it completely and thoroughly.
To kolbacict.
--------------------------------
Can't open the link. Could you send it in another way?
I myself can not download, why?
This archive seems to be stored on the site's server.
In any case, this is just a page from the aboveunity saved last year.
Here is a link to HHO videos, I am just shocked that this method may be the best way to split water..
Acca...
A short video covering snippets of the test series and designed for those who do not have the time to dig deep and view the complete test presentations along with the other 25 subject videos presented by H2IL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKURnM8GAY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrKURnM8GAY)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtal-Crd1YjA1i-IZ3TIGw/videos (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGtal-Crd1YjA1i-IZ3TIGw/videos)[/font]
To kolbacict.
---------------------------
Hi kolbacict,
Hi dear colleague,
Please send to me, if possible, the exact link, (a) which contains "aboveunity" and (b) from which you get the information.
To Acca.
-------------------------
Hi Acca,
Hi dear colleague,
1) Very, very interesting! Thanks a lot for your post. Need some time to consider everything carefully and understand it completely and thoroughly.
2) Do these guys sell such hydrogen-generating machines?
https://cloud.mail.ru/public/Vo2d/t6tJDu9mf (https://cloud.mail.ru/public/Vo2d/t6tJDu9mf)
Acca,reading their https://www.h2innovativelab.com/ (https://www.h2innovativelab.com/) site,
we have to calculate :
$0,34/Kg hydrogen = only the metal price from the galvanic electrolytic process
to read :
A Coefficient of Production (CoP) well in excess of 100% means the output energy is much greater than the input power. Combining an internal energy harvested from low-cost, abundant galvanic metals priced at just $0.34 per Kg of hydrogen and are exchanged every 40 to 80 days.
+ 2 KWh electricity per Kg hydrogen
+ process enclosing chamber and technology costs
+ water ,1 Kg hydrogen from 9 Kg water
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ developper/seller margin !
= total inclusing $1-1,5 per Kg hydrogen
same/similar price level for each Kg hydrogen
https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/117497.html (https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/117497.html)
when 1 Kg hydrogen equates 33,3 KWh ,1$ production costs per Kg means 3 $cents/KWh costs
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/rngwhhdm.htm (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/rngwhhdm.htm)
net costs per KWh (1 MMBTU = 293 KWh ) + CO2-certificate per ton CO2 costs !
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11 (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11)
Pounds of CO2 emitted per million British thermal units (Btu) of energy for various fuels
Natural gas 117.0
117 pounds /293 KWh = 0.18 Kg CO2 per KWh shale/natural gas
https://ember-climate.org/data/carbon-price-viewer/ (https://ember-climate.org/data/carbon-price-viewer/)
average 25 US$/ton ( shall increase to fixed 55 Euros/ton or +- 60 US$/ton )
from 0,45 $cent/KWh to 1,08 US$cents/KWh CO2-certification costs for natural/shale gas use
https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/117497.html (https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/117497.html)
several different processes offering ,claimed results
a. it is USD 1.15/kgH2 and 11 kg CO2
b. It is USD 0.7/kg H2 and 5.5 kg CO2
c. = USD 0.35/kgH2 and 22 kg CO2.
d. It is USD 0.095/kg H2 being practically free, with 44 kg CO2 exhaust can be profitably utilized as in industry (e.g. for axalic acid production) as in agriculture for plants feeding.
or https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2020/nr/c9nr10552b#!divAbstract (https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2020/nr/c9nr10552b#!divAbstract)
e. such hydrogen can be less USD 0.5/kg without any CO2 exhaust.
f. = USD 1.3/kg H2 minus a cost of 3 kg of pure graphite being very valuable by-product.
https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/graphite-price-per-kg.html (https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/graphite-price-per-kg.html)
ultra fine graphite powder : USD 0,45/Kg
1,3 minus 3 x 0,45 = ::) "positive " production costs
d. and e. real natural/shale gas market concurrence !
d. USD 0,095 /33,3 KWh = USD 0,84 per MMBTU shale gas price max ( included CO2 tax,actually USD 1,32 to USD 3,16 )
means shale gas - CO2 tax = negative price
https://www.worldoil.com/news/2020/6/3/natural-gas-prices-could-go-negative-on-global-oversupply (https://www.worldoil.com/news/2020/6/3/natural-gas-prices-could-go-negative-on-global-oversupply)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-natgas-waha-negative-idUSKCN1SS1GC (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-natgas-waha-negative-idUSKCN1SS1GC)
Waha averaged minus 40 cents per million British thermal units (mmBtu) for Wednesday. The last time Waha traded below zero was April 3 when it averaged a record low minus $4.28, according to data from Refinitiv.
e. USD 0,5 /33,3 KWh = USD 4,40 per MMBTU shale gas price max (included CO2-tax,actually USD 1,32 to USD 3,16)
To kolbacict.
---------------------------------
Interesting. Need some time to consider this link carefully. Can we find the same (or similar) information in some other links?
1) We (our team) have created 11 (eleven) technology breakthroughs.
------------------------------
2) Two of the above mentioned 11 technology breakthroughs (entitled "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1", respectively) are released freely here in this forum.
------------------------------
3) Our third technology breakthrough is an entirely new and revolutionary electric technology, which increases many times (twice as a minimum and more than 15 (fifteen) times as a maximum) the capacity of any standard electric battery.
------------------------------
4) Our third technology breakthrough is experimentally proved. Our third technology breakthrough has a working prototype
(accompanied by a detailed description of its principle of operation).
------------------------------
5) Our third technology breakthrough is not patented. Instead we would like to sell our third technology breakthrough as a trade secret and/or to enter a suitable kind of collaboration of mutual benefit for production of our third technology breakthrough on a large industrial scale.
------------------------------
6) Besides we would like to enter a suitable kind of collaboration of mutual benefit for an industrial production on a large industrial scale of our first two technology breakthroughs, (a) which are entitled "IS THIS A REACTIONLESS DRIVE OR A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE?" and "A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1" and (b) which are released freely here in this forum.
------------------------------
7) Contact email address: randdgroup34@gmail.com.
Lanca thanks for that response...
Geoorge1, "OVERUNITY" web sight is open forum for discussion of "FREE ENERGY" ...
For SALE technology is NOT to be SOLD HERE !!! ......
Understanding the principles of secret technology hidden from the people of Earth is discussed here.... Copying of this technology is understanding the working principles, and to free mankind form burning forests for wood to fuel cooking fires as well as burning oil used motor oil to cook, etc...
Try to live in Siberia without wood, you will die.. Try to live in Haiti without making charcoal from deforested wood... No wood left anymore only mudslides...
Hydrogen gas, is the technology to free some 3 billion miserable humans who live 3 dollars a day..
Global warming is a joke as on kamchatka there are some 30 active volcano's that pollute more than humans contribute to global warming..
The way to save planet Earth is to give FREE ENERGY to "ALL HUMANS" and turn the world into a resource based economy as OPPOSED to SLAVE MONETARY ECONOMY'S...Greed and POWER are the drivers of HUMAN MISERY around the world .. It does not matter if you live Mumbai slums or USA getto's.. Converting form monetary to resource based world allow humans to irrigate Sahara and live in central Siberia.. Humans will produce what is needed if energy is free.. Freezing water out of the air and using that water to irrigate the deserts. This is the WAR between people who have and those who have NOT.
Money is the division to that misery.. Free the, "the energy Machines", to the humans Earth..
My MISSION is to disclose secret FREE ENERGY to all humans... and who cares if you are a poor Russian or a poor American, or a human in Central Sudan. However the people who DO CARE are the enemy of humans, the stock holders of financial systems of the World.. MONEY is the corruptor of humans.. With FREE ENERGY humans evolve to a RESOURCE BASED SYSTEM...
Acca...
P.s. it is now here .. [/font]War against the human opressors has begun with FREE ENERGY machines, being now disclosed.. Too bad for oil...and radiation it's on the way out... Wake up... !!!
death of humans in "this FREE ENERGY" fight has already a large body count... in some of these video clips the inventors are dead... NOT by natural causes...
links below
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFuArIMy96M (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFuArIMy96M)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu_Cxb6ii8U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zu_Cxb6ii8U)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1msM3aYCXYA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1msM3aYCXYA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ecepoxsm4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ecepoxsm4)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wDr9tDxRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6wDr9tDxRw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyzuiwe5TGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyzuiwe5TGk)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvis7Z9WJyU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvis7Z9WJyU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUPTNxT-ghw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUPTNxT-ghw)[/font]
[/font]
Acca," ..... MONEY is the corruptor ..."
No ! Neither in a extreme capitalistic (strong individualistic) nor extreme communistic (strong social) social system !
Money exposes a Hirarchy/Class-rank !
Even in North-Corea you see a ranking society !Vaticano: also !
Money can be represented by a stone wheel(Micronesia),Milton&Bradley game plastic button,metal coin ,....... !
The selective use shows the money holder his priorities !
And/or his psychological/physical limits !
Macro-economy : credibility
Title,worth !? No (monetary)credit ! Cash to pay !
Work,worth !? No( monetary)credit ! Cash to pay ! Or "work-time"-barter !
Ground,worth !? No (monetary) credit ! Cash to pay ! Or ground with ground change !
"Money" is a physical ( Kg tender mass) social trade instrument ,portable !
Title and work = mass-free and ground(land) not portable !
Here we have a "political game" error since 1944 ,Bretton Woods conference !
No wonder,that 2/3 from the U.N. are/in/near estate bankruptcy ! ;)
Greater and smaller members .
I do not think that most parliamentaries are corrupt ,but they are non educated in fixed,"eternal",macro-economy laws (actio/re-actio equality)
"All Humans " : without limitation ? Have " all" the compensative right to get cheaply energy/power ?
How they treated Nature,up to date ?Which are their social-ethical standarts ?
Which their KWh per day consume ? Compared global minimum/average ?
What is the priority : the individual his education or " human as consumer/work server mass reproduction" ?!
The 1000 units investment with 3 units per KWh production/generation costs or the 100 units investment with 4-5 units per KWh production/generation costs
B.O.S. Build Operate Sell invest and administrate the power plant and selling -provider like- the output
When photo-/thermal voltaic cells will produce in future DC or AC electricity for 3,later down to 1 €cent per KWh,( we read in several studies about 10cents/Wp endconsumer prices )
why shall hydrogen be a better solution by 3 cents/KWh costs ?
"low cost solution" ,but high investment inside :
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/saltwater-aquion-emerged-from-bankruptcy-new-owner (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/saltwater-aquion-emerged-from-bankruptcy-new-owner)
Juline-Titans LLC acquired the bankrupt (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Aquion-the-Bill-Gates-and-Kleiner-Perkins-Funded-Advanced-Battery-Startup) Aquion at auction for $9.16 million (https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=129249256) on June 20. That price beat out a stalking-horse bid of $2.8 million (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/bankrupt-aquions-salt-water-battery-assets-sold-to-austrias-bluesky-energ) from Austrian energy storage firm BlueSky Energy. Aquion announced a resumption of operations July 21.
The bad news: $9.16 million is just a fraction of the $190 million in venture capital and debt the company had raised from investors
3US$ per day PPP-cash consumer earnings can be seen as 60 US$ per day PPP-credit system investor "money worth"
To Acca and to lancaIV.
----------------------------------------
Firstly, let me remind again something, which has been mentioned many times in our previous posts. (Please read carefully our posts.) Money, that would come from a possible selling of our technology secrets, would be used 90% for charity and 10% for R&D work. But it's OK, let us not talk about money. Let us find then together a suitable industrial manufacturer and enter a suitable collaboration of mutual benefit for production of our technology breakthroughs on a large industrial scale. Now this sounds good, doesn't it?
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/doe-technical-targets-hydrogen-production-electrolysis
George1,with these US-gov-targets you can compare your project goals and status quo !
Sincere
OCWL
So I here is my Hydrogen Oxygen Heater that I built from scrap parts, as the whole unit is made of aluminum to transfer heat to the outside.
It is filled with fish tank sand and Cordierite (crushed catalyst) about 2 inches on top...Need to heat up the cordierite with a flame torch to ignite the cordierite about 2 minutes. This heater consumes 150 watts of electrical energy and after about 30 minutes gets extremely hot so I reduce the voltage in to the HHO generator.. The COP is about 20 times and it is a (Low energy nuclear reaction) a level above chemical reaction. I will NOT debate on this topic period.. I will leave a link to a Korean company who has been in business now for 30 years doing HHO generators on the industrial scale now.. I am NOT talking small HHO kits... they use HHO gas to slice off 3 foot sections off steel like laser.. This is now in the major maturity market of HHO and still scientists have relegated this to a hobby and fringe science,, as European and US markets are still in the dark ages when to come to this technology..
Acca.. P.s.
Thanks to stupid western scientists who have never seen an implosion, and those that have seen it still consider that it is a condensation that cause the vacuum to form.. Look up LENR.. still fringe as power companies shun this topic.. Korea and China are in the energy spear of the future....NOT the West !!!
http://www.browngas.com/emain.htm (http://www.browngas.com/emain.htm)
https://browngas.en.ec21.com/ (https://browngas.en.ec21.com/)
Good morning,Acca !
Remembers DIY 3d plotter construction ! ::)
We have to differ :
heating device / hydrogen generator
HHO (Brown gas )/ pure 99,999.... % hydrogen
We do not need to discuss but only to state facts !
Each device will find the appropriate application !
The "stupid" western scientists [ was Mr."Yull Brown"(Ilya Velbov) as promotor from Oxyhydrogen western or eastern ;) by nature] are good in their trials,to find low cost,mass production,processes ,to reach total costs decreasing prices for industrial and private household consumer !
Scratch ( from industrial mass production ) is good for prototyping and experiments,not enough for all to find/get !
And what you tell us about your experience :
your shown device need heat sensors,whose by temperature level react and in-/decrease tension input !
Automatic ! Controlled !
Device destroying risc ! And local damages ( goods,life/health) !
Sincere
OCWL
p.s.: the hydrogen-promotors are actually loosing force :
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.businessinsider.de/wirtschaft/mobility/vw-mercedes-co-verabschieden-sich-von-ihren-wasserstoff-traeumen-das-spricht-gegen-den-h2-antrieb-c/ (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.businessinsider.de/wirtschaft/mobility/vw-mercedes-co-verabschieden-sich-von-ihren-wasserstoff-traeumen-das-spricht-gegen-den-h2-antrieb-c/)
your words " Korea and China are in the energy spear of the future....NOT the West !!! " and
article statement " Japan and South Korea are driving the technology forward " ;) ( and China )
the success from industrial battery technology ( and capacitor laboratory improvement results) is the handicap for hydrogen
https://interestingengineering.com/could-ultracapacitors-replace-batteries-in-future-electric-vehicles
"In the future, it is hoped the supercapacitor will be developed to store more energy than a Li-Ion battery while retaining the ability to release its energy up to 10 times faster - meaning the car could be entirely powered by the supercapacitors in its body panels," said the study's co-author Jinzhang Liu.[/font][/color]
"After one full charge, this car should be able to run up to 500km (310 miles) - similar to a petrol-powered car and more than double the current limit of an electric car."[/font][/color]
Lanca did you at least look at "BEST Korea" sight as this company is here today because of Brown ?? Your comment makes you sound like the Western scientist(s) (I am bring polite as not to piss you off) who seems to have relegated this technology to the dust bin and any credible comments will be seen as meaning less..
Over 30 years in HHO business and some 300 patents and awards and all you can say this is a scam.. Well you have the right to expose your preference. However Brown did start this whole thing even though he was a fool sometimes.. It's what he started and the result is and it is self evident by this company..
I have been building and generating Oxy /Hydrogen now for years and even the medical application for covid19 are alarming as it reduces the damage
to lungs as also extending life to humans, you might want to do more research as you are very good at it.
I also give my dogs water saturated with HHO and the animals live a long time as well as my organic garden gets watered with HHO gas water.. (Secret to very large vegetables, hint)..
Acca..
thanks for the previous links as they are very good..
As to Hydrogen it will take a center stage in the future especially in Korea, China, Japan... The West will be the last to use it as it's energy to way too cheep..to adopt Hydrogen...
P.s If you don't read Korean try a translation to your language through the web...
I read Korean as well as Russian and Polish.. I am very old and educated in chemistry and material sciences.. My hobby is LENR now...
I will leave it at that...
Good day... !!!
LENR sigh t[/font]https://www.youtube.com/user/FleischmannMemorial/videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/FleischmannMemorial/videos)[/font]
[/font]
Acca,explain me where it is written from my side : " (all you can say) this is a scam.. " ???
I studied this technology since more than 20 years !
And this was also often discussed over the last 15 years here in this forum !
some topic examples :
https://overunity.com/motors-or-vehicles-running-on-hho-or-hydrogen-only-no-gasoline/ (https://overunity.com/motors-or-vehicles-running-on-hho-or-hydrogen-only-no-gasoline/)
other list :
https://peswiki.com/directory:browns-gas (https://peswiki.com/directory:browns-gas)
f.e. Newgas Korea (http://www.newgas.co.kr/main/main.html)- Dealer of B.E.S.T. Brown Gas generators, Korea. ::)
To lancaIV.
---------------------------------
Hi lancaIV,
Thanks a lot for the link https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/doe-technical-targets-hydrogen-production-electrolysis
I will consider this link carefully and will write to you in the nearest future.
Please send to me, if possible, any other similar links containing companies/institutions, involved in hydrogen-generating activities. (As a mediator/supplier of such a valuable contact information you will be awarded, it goes without saying.)
Regards,
To Acca.
------------------------------------
Hi Acca,
You have sent very interesting things. Need some time to consider them carefully and understand everything completely and thoroughly. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
Acca
You are true "human" .. on a water planet hydrogen economy
Should change everything ( one big key anyway)
Your words inspire ... ( written previously about " it's time to change "
I take the hatchet to the exhaust pipe!!
LENR research needs more hands and eyes willing to change too
Covid has both harmed as well United our planet!!
East west north south ....
I could not find You tube you wrote MAGNET VORTEX ??
However here they do try to hinder such ?(giggle YouTube guys)
( Google trying to suppress recent book on another topic here)
//—-//—-
I cannot write the words to properly express my gratitude!!
Respectfully
Chet K
PS
Perhaps this LENR should get its own teaching /experiments spot
To ramset.
---------------------------
Hi Chet K,
Hi dear colleague,
Welcome to our team of new technologies enthusiasts!
Magnetic vortex? A few explanations about this phenomenon?
Sir
Please see post #556 on your topic here (#556 above)
ACCA post references his build and you tube channel !
LENR is most interesting research !
Respectfully
Chet K
Please send to me, if possible, any other similar links containing companies/institutions, involved in hydrogen-generating activities :
https://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogen+symposium&rlz=1C1AVFC_enPT930PT930&oq=hydrogen+symposium&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30l9.7825j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
all Universities global
all car manufacturer
Air Liquide,Linde ( Linde is a global leader in the production, processing, storage and distribution of hydrogen. )
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11090-016-9766-6 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11090-016-9766-6)
but related hydrogen-rich Syngas ,not pure hydrogen
type of electrolysis comparison.KWh/Kg input :
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11090-016-9766-6/tables/1 (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11090-016-9766-6/tables/1)
LENR or " cold fusion" paper :
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237276063_COLD_FUSION_BY_PLASMA_ELECTROLYSIS_OF_WATER (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237276063_COLD_FUSION_BY_PLASMA_ELECTROLYSIS_OF_WATER)
http://panacea-bocaf.org/kanarevelectrolysis.htm (http://panacea-bocaf.org/kanarevelectrolysis.htm)
His tests show at least 10 times the capacity but his data also suggests 4,000 times more hydrogen than the Wh input would predict. He also has measured very significant hydrogen generation when his cell is not powered.
from an inventor in the Lebannon :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2004156779A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20040812&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=2004156779A1&KC=A1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20040812&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=7&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20021121&CC=US&NR=2002170292A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=7&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20021121&CC=US&NR=2002170292A1&KC=A1)
Lanca
Your link again
http://panacea-bocaf.org/kanarevelectrolysis.htm (http://panacea-bocaf.org/kanarevelectrolysis.htm)
Plasma ....
Ran with no input?
LENR... ?
What is the chicken skeleton formed from?
The protein and yolk obviously do not contain so much calcium. ;)
George1 :
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4747925A/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US4747925A/en)
C.O.P average 3 for electric input and hydrogen energetic value
by cited/citing documents you will see different applicators and institutions
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4014777A/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US4014777A/en) "Brown gas" or oxy-hydrogen inventor/promotor
A good argument 1973 : The generation of cheap gas, up to 6 to 7 times cheaper than normal gas supplies.
this inventor (now R.I.P.) worked also with Kanarev
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070065765A1/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070065765A1/en)
https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2006108198&tab=PCTBIBLIO (https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=WO2006108198&tab=PCTBIBLIO)
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190186022A1/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190186022A1/en)
priority: 2011 publication : 2019 8)
[0082]
During this example, water was hydrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen gas (HHO) at a measured rate of 17.9 grams of water consumer per minute. Given that a mole of water has a mass of 18.0 grams, it follows that 0.994 moles of water were generated per minute. Since an ideal gas has a volume of 22.4 liters per mole, it also follows that the reactor generated 0.994×22.4=22.26 liters per minute or 1335.6 liters per hour of HHO. If a mole of hydrogen is 1.0794 grams, and if 1335.6×2/3/22.4=moles per hour of hydrogen are generated, this equates to 39.75 grams per hour of generated hydrogen. Recalling that the reactor and vacuum pump consume 0.5555 kilowatts (Kw) to generate 0.03975 kilograms (Kgs) in one hour, it follows that the reactor requires about 13.97 KwH to generate one kilogram of hydrogen. At a typical off-peak rate of about $0.17 per KwH for external power, the reactor can generate hydrogen for about $2.37 per kilogram, which has been found to be competitive.
13,97 KWh electric power input for 33,3 KWh hydrogen energetic value = C.O.P. ?
13,97 KWh electricity x 0,17 USD = 2,37 USD
They only calculated the electricity costs per Kg hydrogen,not the total investment costs per Kg !
near future :
water to hydrogen as heat source to high efficient heatelectric converter :
https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/173410.html?utm_source=3userpost (https://judbarovski.livejournal.com/173410.html?utm_source=3userpost)
C.O.P. 3 electrolysis x 0,8 ( for 80% conversion efficiency) = total 2,4 water to electricity system C.O.P.
conventional ic-engines actually C.O.P. 0,15 in average
But : innovative,standarts changing, ideas are not ever successfull,an example : https://www.axionpower.com/the-battery/ (https://www.axionpower.com/the-battery/)
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/energy-storage-setback-as-two-firms-fail (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/energy-storage-setback-as-two-firms-fail)
" ...... Axion invested about $50 million in adopting it for use in batteries .... "
The company was a veteran of the energy storage industry, having been founded in 2003. As reported in GTM (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/axions-lead-carbon-batteries-sweet-spot-for-micro-hybrid-vehicles#gs.7ph2DnA) back in 2009, Axion aimed to give lithium-ion a run for its money with an advanced lead-acid battery equipped with carbon electrodes.
The electrode technology, from a Russian company that had been developing it for superconductors, was supposed to give the battery a lifespan three to four times longer than batteries using traditional lead negative electrodes.
" Needing a long breath" and good, contract warranted,partners !
And how does browns gas melt exotic metals?
5000C ?? Or....titanium and other?
What is the hottest temp hydrogen gas can reach as " heat flame" ?
Under enuff heat all is consumed ... safely ( for atmosphere??
Could solution for plastic problem be remediated ? Heat to power plant ?
Would make plastic garbage into gold for needy areas ... if truly made environmentally friendly by extreme hydrogen temps?
Temperatures?
Cogen?
Clean up the plastic mess with SUPER high heat ( all toxic consumed??
And generate power?
Material with highest melting point : Wolframite also called Tungsten : 3422 ° C
Plasma torch flame = plasma jet melting temperature up to 7 x over Wolfram m.-p.: up to 40 000 °F (arc )
or 22500 ° K
Radio-active material decontamination possible !
Plastics vaporizing possible ! But is plastics to Syngas not more eco-logical/nomical ? Recycle process !
Yes tungsten
On plastic remediation....Any material consumed would add to combustion/available heat to make steam / power-plant ?
And yes the nuclear remediation of some material waste that Brown wrote about ( Canadian govt acknowledged?)
On plasma topic
Santilli ( spelling) cogen plasma reactors made gas and power ? with plasma from municipal sewage
Magnagas??
——///—////
I like ACCA's "LENR " heater
Would be sooo easy to prove the claim too
Member ION's "fixed loss to ambient" test protocol !
Have donor catalytic for experiment .... will hack out of car next few days .
The platinum catalyst increase the oxidation of hydrogen with oxygen.
This is cool and useful.
But.. to produce hydrogen from water a reverse catalyst is needed.
Another way.
It is a catalyst that enhances the separation of oxygen and hydrogen. Redox reactions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox). Reaction of hydrogen reduction from oxide.
The tension of chemical bonds using a catalyst. A little more - and the ties will be broken.
What is this catalyst?
We have member here Johan -1955
He shared several years back that very small (teeny) lithium soap (dish soap in market (Spain)
Had lithium soap as part of ingredient
Well
This added to water drops per liter ?
Changed hydrogen bond separation strength in ICE applications from 2000C ( no catalyst)down to 1000C with itty bitty Lithium
Some here did water fuel tests with Johan advice 50 % water with fuel
Johan had dyno test 35KW motor at 70%++ water ... w emulsified catalyst as above
Ran better than straight fuel
So perhaps lithium could work in electrolysis ( is in soaps ...grease for bearings ( car) etc etc ?
Will add to the test of ACCA magnetvortex heater
Post 556 here
Edit
I see I did not pay attention
ACCA wrote "cordierite " not exhaust catalytic dust ( was another vid here .. now seems removed that had same looking heater as above but used car catalyst dust ( platinum etc
https://www.corning.com/worldwide/en/innovation/materials-science/ceramics/what-is-cordierite.html (https://www.corning.com/worldwide/en/innovation/materials-science/ceramics/what-is-cordierite.html)
It seems to have replicated one old patent on low-temperature thermal dissociation.
Thermal dissociation of water vapor by heating the catalyst substance in a vacuum chamber to 450 C.
The problem is that the vacuum must be so good, as the forvacuum pump is capable.
-98 .. -99 kPa = not work.
-100 kPa = work ( I'm sorry, but I can't measure the pressure more accurately with a mechanical vacuum gauge (https://images.by.prom.st/65173943_w700_h500_poverka-vakuummetr.jpg).)
Temperature lower 420 С = not work.
Сatalyst substance - ordinary zeolite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinoptilolite). Zeolite-containing kitty litter (https://www.google.com/search?q=cat+litter+with+zeolite) performs slightly less well.
Hydrogen detector = MQ-8 module for Arduino, like this (https://aliexpress.ru/item/32787383336.html).
"Hydrogen detected" - more than 2.4 volts at the detector analog output, indicator LED is on.
But not usable yet:
High energy consumption for heating and a vacuum.
Probably another or modified catalyst substance is needed, like this (http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0104-66322018000100131).
How can this be?
We were kind of taught that a catalyst does not provide an energy gain.
The decomposition temperature can be lowered.The decomposition temperature can be lowered.
is not it ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm1mlxYX5v8
https://www.youtube.com/c/peterlang777/videos
Stanley Meyer:http://www.vodik.wz.cz/Meyer/meyerwfc/4826581b.jpg
Hi dear colleagues,
Thanks a lot for sharing of so many pieces of interesting technology information here. Need some time to consider everything carefully.
Regards,
Quote from: Acca on March 19, 2021, 02:33:29 AM
So I here is my Hydrogen Oxygen Heater that I built from scrap parts, as the whole unit is made of aluminum to transfer heat to the outside.
It is filled with fish tank sand and Cordierite (crushed catalyst) about 2 inches on top...Need to heat up the cordierite with a flame torch to ignite the cordierite about 2 minutes. This heater consumes 150 watts of electrical energy and after about 30 minutes gets extremely hot so I reduce the voltage in to the HHO generator.. The COP is about 20 times and it is a (Low energy nuclear reaction) a level above chemical reaction. I will NOT debate on this topic period.. I will leave a link to a Korean company who has been in business now for 30 years doing HHO generators on the industrial scale now.. I am NOT talking small HHO kits... they use HHO gas to slice off 3 foot sections off steel like laser.. This is now in the major maturity market of HHO and still scientists have relegated this to a hobby and fringe science,, as European and US markets are still in the dark ages when to come to this technology..
Acca.. P.s.
Thanks to stupid western scientists who have never seen an implosion, and those that have seen it still consider that it is a condensation that cause the vacuum to form.. Look up LENR.. still fringe as power companies shun this topic.. Korea and China are in the energy spear of the future....NOT the West !!!
http://www.browngas.com/emain.htm (http://www.browngas.com/emain.htm)
https://browngas.en.ec21.com/ (https://browngas.en.ec21.com/)
http://www.csrf.ac.uk/2020/09/hydrogen-for-heating/ (http://www.csrf.ac.uk/2020/09/hydrogen-for-heating/)
There You,Acca,will find the greatest followers and future ´hydrogen for heating ´ user !
Your delivered magnetvortex heater numbers 3000 Watt heat output by 150 electric Watts input changes the "blog calculations" !
demonstration and scientifical (eastern or western ) Uni laboratory input/output repeatable measurement would help ! ;)
Why not : Heriot-Watt Uni lab :
No discussion,measuring during operation ! ::)
Sincerely
OCWL
p.s.: high C.O.P. ?
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=de_EP&FT=D&date=20200514&CC=DE&NR=102018008797A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=de_EP&FT=D&date=20200514&CC=DE&NR=102018008797A1&KC=A1) C.O.P.: 10x
The aim of the development work is to save as much electrical energy as possible. Endurance tests prove that with the help of electrical energy, thermal energy in a ratio of 1 to 10 can be obtained with a saving effect of 90%! This established and verifiable performance opens up completely new avenues for the heating and hot water sector and could make storage an alternative technology to the combustion of fossil fuels such as gas and oil and could soon be part of the basic equipment of every house. Technical conception: The thermal conductivity of a liquid is the basis of the storage principle. Thermal energy by means of heat conduction in the form of heat in watts per Kelvin and meter is a temperature-dependent material constant. If current with a low voltage of 18-48 volts is passed through a specific liquid with two electrodes made of different materials, a potential difference arises. The flow speed of the positively charged photons increases many times over and thus leads to a temperature change in the memory.
The water temperature of 40-80 ° C reached is transferred to the domestic water to be heated in the storage tank and thus operates the heating system and water heater for the bathroom and kitchen. Main features: Polyfunctionality through two interconnected water tanks that realize the same radiator and hot water tank. The room air temperature is continuously regulated by thermostats. This process takes place silently and permanently, 24 hours a day. The domestic hot water temperature is also regulated. The high quality of the components, the low weight of the accumulator, and the ease of use and maintenance of the mechanical parts should be emphasized. The electrodes used are made of corrosion-resistant metals with a melting point of more than 800 ° C. The memory works permanently with a specified voltage and strength of the current, which is fed in either from the network or from a biometric volume
(photoelectric).
sourced by Artificial (24/365) Photo-Voltaic generator C.O.P.: 6- 12- 18 x
sourced A.PV -lamps by
magnetic generator C.O.P. : 8x
minimum 10 x 6 x 8 = high cascaded C.O.P ; min. 400 up to near 1000
The " blog calculations" are easily to become " technical up to date"-d and corrected
I am back, I have posted some clips on YouTube as they deal with HHO subject and the excess energy generated by the HHO gas it is still quite interesting
puzzle still... I tend to "not believe" in theory only my method of understanding that what I have done with the HHO gas and the energy that it carries is NOT one type of Hydrogen but multi-species of some heavy and lighter fractions based on what I have see by "doing my tests" I do not call these "experimants"..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfGIkH1C_ds&t=32s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfGIkH1C_ds&t=32s)[/font]
I am drinking HHO water and will use it to breathe it next week as the Chinese have done with Covid9 patients, since the recovery is based on immune
response it seems the HHO at 4% or less may be the key to extending life for all people.. Now you have to understand the this gas is very dangerous, I am suspecting that there is a heavy form that may accumulate in voids like natural gas.. I cannot explain where this form is from, I seen that in an old book by Walter Russel he studied elements based on a "tonality" and in his diagram he has elements beyond hydrogen quite intriguing as he was a brilliant man..
That is all I have to say as this HHO research has come to an end for me, I am studying the work of Viktor Leonov..
https://vladimir-leonov.livejournal.com/12365.html (https://vladimir-leonov.livejournal.com/12365.html)
http://leonovcontent1000.blogspot.com/ (http://leonovcontent1000.blogspot.com/)
Dr. Vladimir Leonov is a Russian theoretical physicist, experimenter and inventor. In 1996 he discovered the quantum of space-time (quanton) and superstrong electromagnetic interaction (fifth force). He is the author of the theory of Superunification, holds a number of important patents in the region of new energy and space technologies and is the founder of quantum power engineering. He published more than 200 scientific articles and 6 monographs:`
1. Leonov V. S. Quantum Energetics. Volume 1. Theory of Superunification. Cambridge International Science Publishing, 2010, 745 pages.
2. V.S. Leonov. Quantum Energetics: Theory of Superunification. Viva Books, India, 2011, 732 pages.
At present, V. Leonov heads his own laboratory working on the development of a new direction in power engineering-quantum energetics. An experimental model of a quantum engine which underwent successful tests was developed for the first time. New results were also obtained in the area of cold synthesis in studies of quantum heat generators, etc. Dr. V. Leonov was awarded a Russian government prize in the area of science and technology and in 2007 was included in 100 leaders of science and technology of CIS countries.
ACCA
Thank you for sharing
No one has posted their work here with HHO heaters before ( the actual builder sharing)
I have a question on you cell ?( type ?)
Do you use water unaltered?
Or?
And input to gas yield per watt ?
I will be helping other open source experimenters with this much needed information ( heat source)
Also seeing your almost 2 atmosphere vacuum ( how you connect/ make this ?
With gratitude
Chet K
Ps
Perhaps path towards more understanding is Nano
Member Sergh shared this from Mr.Lang
https://m.youtube.com/c/peterlang777/videos (https://m.youtube.com/c/peterlang777/videos)
PPS
You said you were old man ( look like strong Tarzan in vacuum vid ....( very well preserved... maybe Hho juice ?
Hot and interesting discussion occurs here, dear colleagues! Thanks a lot for it! It's obvious that this forum is full of smart people! :)
Hello Acca,
do you have platinum in the sand?
Greeting
Lota
Yes there is a old catalyst crushed at the top about an inch to two.. Sand is all the way to the bottom.. Will get back in a few days..
Acca...
Hello
Thank you. I still have a Catalyst and a Drycelle. Will build that up the next few days. Is the cell pulsed? I still have a Pll circuit for it. I'm going to test them.
Greeting
Lota
I wish him to eat this fish.
Came up with a way to measure the capacity of a Meer cell.
According to the Lissajous curve. I wonder if anyone has done this, or I am the first. :)
At the same time, you can measure phase shifts, at different frequencies ...
A really good discussion occurs here! Let me join it! :)
-----------------------------
We (our multinational team) have created 11 (eleven) technology breakthroughs.
-----------------------------
1) Please consider carefully and thoroughly the link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2ffyvdhjk
-----------------------------
2) The link above describes our first technology breakthrough.
---------------------------
3) The link above describes some simple experiments, which break (a) the law of conservation of mechanical energy and (b) the law of conservation of linear momentum. You can easily carry out these simple experiments in your garage as many times as you want. Any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.
---------------------------
4) We (our multinational team) are open to collaboration of mutual benefit (a) for a further perfection and development of our technology breakthroughs and/or (b) for a production of our technology breakthroughs on a large industrial scale.
---------------------------
5) We would like to ask you to popularize the link above as much as possible in internet (and anywhere else and in any possible way).
---------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
---------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Sincerely yours,
George1
We (our multinational team) have created 11 (eleven) technology breakthroughs.
-----------------------------
1) Please consider carefully and thoroughly the link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY
-----------------------------
2) The link above describes our first technology breakthrough.
---------------------------
3) The link above describes some simple experiments, which break (a) the law of conservation of mechanical energy and (b) the law of conservation of linear momentum. You can easily carry out these simple experiments in your garage as many times as you want. Any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special, tragic and disturbing in this fact.
---------------------------
4) We (our multinational team) are open to collaboration of mutual benefit (a) for a further perfection and development of our technology breakthroughs and/or (b) for a production of our technology breakthroughs on a large industrial scale.
---------------------------
5) We would like to ask you to popularize the link above as much as possible in internet (and anywhere else and in any possible way).
---------------------------
LET US PUSH FORWARD THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
---------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Sincerely yours,
George1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY
video does not play. removed.
p.s. Does this forum have any topics about wind turbines?
p.p.s. The video has already appeared. sorry.
The text below is a slightly modified, shortened and more precise version of our post of March 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM.
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY
----------------------------
The link above clearly shows how a few simple experiments, carried out in your garage, (1) can be the basis for designing of a simple mechanical reactionless drive machine and (2) can solve your personal energy problems (as well as the energy problems of the world as whole).
-----------------------------
Let us popularize the link above as much as possible in internet (and anywhere else and in any other way).
LET US PUSH FORWARD TOGETHER THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESS!
The text below is a slightly modified, shortened and more precise version of our post of March 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM.
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
EXPERIMENTALLY PROVED reactionless drive and perpetual motion are described in the link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY&ab_channel=PeterAxe
The link above describes a few simple reactionless drive and perpetual motion experiments. You can easily carry out these simple experiments in your garage as many times as you want.
Looking forward to your opinions, recommendations, questions.
Hello
I have built the sand heating. But still problems with the setback. Catalyst is from the Mercedes w124. After a few minutes, it ignites automatically. The temperature in the catalyst rises very quickly. I will try to grind the catalyst and mix it with sand.
greeting
Lota
Hi lota,
Hi dear colleague,
Thank you for your message. Some more details, if possible?
Looking forward to your answer.
The text below is a slightly modified, shortened and more precise version of our post of March 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM.
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
EXPERIMENTALLY PROVED reactionless drive and perpetual motion are described in the link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY&ab_channel=PeterAxe
The link above describes a few simple reactionless drive and perpetual motion experiments. You can easily carry out these simple experiments in your garage as many times as you want.
Looking forward to your comments.
Still no comments related to the link below?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY&ab_channel=PeterAxe
--------------------------
What happens here? Where is the new technologies pioneer spirit here in this forum?:)
--------------------------
Looking forward to your answers/comments.
Here's who has excess heat ... :)
https://www.academia.edu/19925139/Ultrasonically_excited_electrolysis_Experiments_at_Energetics_Technologies?email_work_card=view-paper (https://www.academia.edu/19925139/Ultrasonically_excited_electrolysis_Experiments_at_Energetics_Technologies?email_work_card=view-paper)
Quote from: lota on April 08, 2021, 12:29:41 PM
Hello
I have built the sand heating. But still problems with the setback. Catalyst is from the Mercedes w124. After a few minutes, it ignites automatically. The temperature in the catalyst rises very quickly. I will try to grind the catalyst and mix it with sand.
greeting
Lota
lota
Here a quick vid/explanation of what Acca is using , and how to harvest it
I suppose as we proceed ( I will also be building ) we can share process for smashing and mixing into sand
Years ago a YouTube group "waterforfuel " ( or something like that ) had shared some vids on HHO and catalytic reaction , at that time I thought some had analyzed the process for energy audit _power used to heat production _ efficiency...
There is remarkably simple caloric test method to prove this now !
I will be building smallest most efficient Hho cell possible for testing as time permits
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_u3WfZa_9ko (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_u3WfZa_9ko)
Here vid showing where material comes from (go from to 1-2 minute mark , rest of vid is process for harvesting platinum and noble
Metals
Thx
Chet
Ps to OP (original poster George) here
This is not typical to assume you are ok with this discussion in your topic
However seems to be tolerated?
Are you OK with this discussion here?
I will be starting separate topic at other open source forums if this proves viable
(And also here.. separate teaching section)
?
The text below is a slightly modified, shortened and more precise version of our post of March 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM.
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
EXPERIMENTALLY PROVED reactionless drive and perpetual motion are described in the link below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY&ab_channel=PeterAxe
The link above describes a few simple reactionless drive and perpetual motion experiments. You can easily carry out these simple experiments in your garage as many times as you want.
----------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The technology information described in the link above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in theoretical and applied mechanics. Otherwise nothing will come of it.
----------------------
Looking forward to your comments.
The link below describes a few simple experiments, which break the law of conservation of mechanical energy and the law of conservation of linear momentum. You can easily carry out these simple experiments in your garage as many times as you want.
And here is the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY&ab_channel=PeterAxe
---------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE 1. It is highly recommendable that the above mentioned experiments are evaluated and realized by a highly qualified expert (Ph.D.) in theoretical and applied mechanics. Otherwise nothing will come of it (most probably).
----------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE 2. The key question in the above mentioned experiments is how to reduce standard friction (where necessary) to a certain minimum limit, beyond which the experimental error (due to friction) is small enough and can be neglected. The answer is simple. You can use for example permanent magnet slides as shown in the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoW0A8hYs5A . (Permanent magnet slides reduce friction practically to zero and the measuring devices do not register any force of friction.) Aternatively you can use hundreds of other methods for reducing of friction (as much as necessary) as modern technologies allow this feat. We live in 21st century after all.
----------------------------------------
Looking forward to your comments after repeating the above mentioned simple experiments.
George1, where begins and where ends "simple heater" ?
2008 : http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET1108S39-41.pdf (http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET1108S39-41.pdf) Wärmegenerator von Hans Peter Bierbaumer
2013 : http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S10-18.pdf (http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S10-18.pdf) E3 Gravitherme mit COP = 50:1 - ein Zukunftsprojekt
translated "device"-claim :
" ...... In the prospectus description for E3 Gravitherme says that this heat generation system with
a COP> 50 is unique in the world.
A device with a heating output of 20 kW therefore requires less than 400 W connected load and
can easily be converted into a existing flow / return linea heater can be installed.
A Exhaust gas chimney is not required.
On Gas or oil can then with one of those Heating practically omitted entirely and the operating costs are exceptionally low. .... "
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20091022&CC=US&NR=2009263113A1&KC=A1 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20091022&CC=US&NR=2009263113A1&KC=A1)
Consumer of elec. energy as per voltmeter and ampere meter displays E1 = I × V × Δτ ,KJ 0.86 0.86 2.70 2.43
Energy of the heated solution, E2 = 4, 19 × m × Δt, kJ 27.53 30.72 87.05 48.43
Efficiency level of the cell as per voltmeter and ampere meter displays K = E2/E1 32.01 35.70 32.24 33.32
let us go to
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20120613&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=EP&NR=1875140B1&KC=B1&ND=4 (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20120613&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=EP&NR=1875140B1&KC=B1&ND=4)
there above written EP Register,entering :
https://register.epo.org/application?lng=en&number=EP05731926&tab=main (https://register.epo.org/application?lng=en&number=EP05731926&tab=main)
https://data.epo.org/publication-server/pdf-document?pn=1875140&ki=B1&cc=EP&pd=20120613 (https://data.epo.org/publication-server/pdf-document?pn=1875140&ki=B1&cc=EP&pd=20120613)
Veröffentlichungstag und Bekanntmachung des Hinweises auf die Patenterteilung: 13.06.2012 Patentblatt 2012/24
Publication date and announcement of the reference to the patent granted: 13.06.2012 Patentblatt 2012/24
technical data :
electric input : Verbraucher an el. Energie laut Voltmeter- und Ampermeteranzeigen E1=IxVx Δτ ,kJ 0,86 0,86 2,70 2,43
thermic output :Energie der erhitzten Lösung, E2= 4,19 xmx Δt, kJ 27,53 30,72 87,05 48,43
efficiency : Wirkungsgrad der Zelle laut Voltmeter- und Ampermeteranzeigen K=E2/E1 32,01 35,70 32,24 33,32
= between 3201% and 3570% conversion
Patentoffice peers acceptable numbers : granted ! 8) ;) :)
But http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S10-18.pdf (http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S10-18.pdf) ,ATTENTION,page 18 :
The "Austrian Society for critical thinking ", by the way the inventor of the Gravitherme for the Award "The Golden Board vorm Kopf "nominated for consistently ignoring the
Thermodynamics in energy multiplication and the pseudoscientific painting of his patent application
Whom we can trust ? ;D We have to think and decide : critically ! After device teste and measurement !
Btw : https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP05731926&lng=en&tab=event (https://register.epo.org/application?number=EP05731926&lng=en&tab=event)
11.05.2012 (Expected) grant published on 13.06.2012 [2012/24] (http://archive.epo.org/epo/pubs/bulletin/2012/bulletin1224.pdf)
https://www.wienerzeitung.at/nachrichten/wirtschaft/oesterreich/494114_Wasserstoff-Technologie-Firma-Hydrogen-Research-AG-pleite.html (https://www.wienerzeitung.at/nachrichten/wirtschaft/oesterreich/494114_Wasserstoff-Technologie-Firma-Hydrogen-Research-AG-pleite.html)
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.wienerzeitung.at/nachrichten/wirtschaft/oesterreich/494114_Wasserstoff-Technologie-Firma-Hydrogen-Research-AG-pleite.html (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.wienerzeitung.at/nachrichten/wirtschaft/oesterreich/494114_Wasserstoff-Technologie-Firma-Hydrogen-Research-AG-pleite.html)
Hydrogen technology company Hydrogen Research AG bankrupt
insolvency
After the death of founder Hans-Peter Bierbaumer, insolvent AG is wound up.
https://totenbilder.at/totenbild/bierbaumer-hans-peter (https://totenbilder.at/totenbild/bierbaumer-hans-peter) R.I.P. since 19.08.2012
granted after the applicant his death !
But: see EP Patent document !
Inventor(s):MICHAYLOVICH KANAREV PHILIPP [RU]
and we see that the bureaucracy works/(re-)act really slow :
article date from October 15, 2012, 3:45 pm Clock
related
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=EP&NR=1875140B1&KC=B1&FT=D&ND=4&date=20120613&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/inpadoc?CC=EP&NR=1875140B1&KC=B1&FT=D&ND=4&date=20120613&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP)
Event date :2013/10/31
Event code :BERE
Code Expl.:- BE: LAPSED
NEW OWNER :BIERBAUMER, HANS-PETER DR. H.C.
EFFECTIVE DATE :20130430 ( :o more than 1 year after his death ::) , "honoris causa" )
2008,....,2013,.....2020,2021,.....
E3 Gravitherme mit COP = 50:1 - ein Zukunftsprojekt E3 Gravitherme with COP = 50: 1 - a future project ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZbKHDPPrrc)
To lancaIV.
==================================
Ok, let us focus on the electric heater again.
==================================
The text below is a slightly modified, shortened and more precise version of our post of March 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM.
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your comments.
a. it is not a real life experiment
b. it is a tutorial question/answer statement ,with idealistic = theoretical ideal,lost-free,numbers
c. it is not hydrolysis,it is not thermolysis : it is " In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution" related
Known best pure electric input +
f.e.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/magnets-that-double-efficiency-of-water-splitting-could-help-usher-in-a-hydrogen-economy/3010618.article (https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/magnets-that-double-efficiency-of-water-splitting-could-help-usher-in-a-hydrogen-economy/3010618.article)
Not new experimental knowledge :
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2016442A/en (https://patents.google.com/patent/US2016442A/en)
Quote from: onepower on January 11, 2021, 08:06:32 PM
The free electrons in the electrical circuit which produced the electron current is finite. That is, by Faradays law all the electrons which left the (-) negative terminal must complete the circuit and return to the (+) positive terminal of the source. This is also the premise of what is known as Kirchhoff's laws saying we cannot gain or lose anything in the closed circuit. No electrons can be lost or gained to the electrolyte and energy/mass are conserved. However another law also applies which states the electron current must dissipate all it's energy as heat in the load resistance or the source resistance for energy to be conserved.
Thus we seem to have a contradiction where one law claims X must happen and another law which claims Y must happen but X-Y contradict one another.
Nice catch, indeed!
Have you resolved the contradiction? If so, please explain how, as to me it is a head-scratcher!
To lancaIV.
==================================
Ok, let us focus on the electric heater again.
==================================
The text below is a slightly modified, shortened and more precise version of our post of March 09, 2021, 02:46:35 PM.
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
To lancaIV.
======================
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given in our previous post.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 1st time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
----------------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 1st time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
George1 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcV02PjdYYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcV02PjdYYY) ,
You tried this funny "game" with Floor,now trial 2.0 ! Your chance : up to trial 84053,0 following actual number : Members: 84053
Happy weekend
OCWL
To lancaIV.
===================
You totally disappont me. You copy entirely the stupid and unskillful Floor's manipulation methods. And it is normally my counter-approach to be the same. Shame on you!
To lancaIV.
======================
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given in our today's post of 12:54:47 PM.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 2nd time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
----------------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 2nd time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
Sie verlieren so viel persoenliche Zeit,George1 !
Shame on you! :o Scham ! ::) Welch Schwaeche ! Okay, eine Volks-Trauer-Scham-Nano-Sekunde : Start-Stop ! Genug geschaemt !
Vielleicht sollte ein " Shame on You/ deontologisch:Fegefeuer/chama "- button installiert werden ;)
Ich vermute und ziehe deshalb schon vor :
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 3rd time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
und weil es dann so schoen lang werden koennte :
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the ......... time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
Nach 3 kommt 4 , wenn nicht auf Kommata zurueckgegriffen werden sollte : 3,1 ; 3,11 ; 3,111; ......
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 3rd time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
"All members ..... " : ich gebe hiermit bekannt,dass ich,als Teil des "All", darauf verzichte zu warten ! BASTA ,nochmoi ! :P
Und ein "persoenliches : Ja ! " beziehungsweise "persoenliches : Nein !" :
ICH SO WIE SIE WERDEN NIEMALS INNERHALB EINES DIGITALEN FORUMS PERSOENLICH WERDEN KOENNEN
( so unter virtuellen 4 Ohren gesagt )
"Only one word" : oh,da fuehlt man sich Dekaden zurueckgeworfen,Katechese betreffend :
Herr(schaften), nur ein Wort , so wird UNSER(e) Seel(e) gesund
ALS MENSCH VERFUEGT MAN UEBER VIEL ZEIT, DABEI FREI VON ULTIMATEN SOWIE MORATORIEN
Ein schoenes Wochenende wuenschend
OCWL
p.s.: you are refering a Prof. S. L. Srivastava tutorial (hand book) ,based by (rhetorical/specific moment) question/answer examples
To lancaIV.
======================
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 3rd time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
----------------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 3rd time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
The text below is a copy of our post of April 24, 12:50:36 PM. (The text below has been published many times in this forum topic.)
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your comments.
The text below is a copy of our post of April 24, 12:50:36 PM. (The text below has been published many times in this forum topic.)
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your comments.
=================================
P.S. Isn't there at least one brave member of this forum who dares to say that any standard water-splitting electrolyzer is a device, which has COP greater than 1?
Where is the brave new technologies pioneer spirit in this forum? What happens here? :)
Still no comments? As if nobody in this forum wants to save some money while heating his/her house during winter season? :)
The text below is a copy of our post of April 24, 12:50:36 PM. (The text below has been published many times in this forum topic.)
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your comments.
=================================
P.S. Isn't there at least one brave member of this forum who would dare to say that any standard water-splitting electrolyzer is a device, which has COP greater than 1? We (our team) are really surprised.
Any standard water-splitting electrolyzer has a COP, which is bigger than 1. Why don't you accept this simple truth?
Still no comments? Deep silence again? :)
Any standard water-splitting electrolyzer has a COP, which is bigger than 1. This the truth, if you accept the validity of Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution.
Still no public recognition of our concept? What happens here?
Deep silence again? :) Really surprised!
Any standard water-splitting electrolyzer has a COP, which is bigger than 1. Isn't there at least one brave member of this forum who dares to accept this simple obvious truth?
Looking forward to your comments. Show some more courage! :)
Please look again at the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX14NK8GrDY&ab_channel=PeterAxe and at the related comments section. In this comments section an egghead-wiseacre, whose pseudonim is Dark Light 2.1, does his/her best to reject obvious truths. This person Dark Light 2.1 is a real clown! Please follow this discussion, if you like. Seems to be interesting.
Still waiting for your comments related to our water-splitting electrolysis heater.
COP > 1 for any standard water-splitting electrolysis process. Looking forward to your comments.
Still no comments? Deep silence again? Very strange. :)
Still waiting for your comments.
The text below is a copy of our post of April 24, 12:50:36 PM. (The text below has been published many times in this forum topic.)
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Simple, clear and understandable. Silence will not stop the technology progress.
Looking forward to your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Looking forward to your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Simple, clear and understandable. And obvious. Why can't you accept obvious facts?
Looking forward to your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Still no comments?
Still waiting for your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. A simple obvious fact. Difficult to accept.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Valid for any standard water-splitting electrolysis process. Seems to be obvious.
Does anybody know what is a reciprocal catalyzation? (A colleague from another forum says that reciprocal catalyzation is another chemical process of COP > 1.)
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Millions of standard water-splitting electrolyzers all over the world equivalent to millions of heaters of new kind all over the world. And these millions of heaters of new kind are able to save millions of kilowatt-hours all over the world. And still no public recognition of this freely released (as an additional bonus!) new technology information. How's that? Isn't this an absurd? As if humankind as a whole suffers from some kind of mental coma? :)
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Still no comments?
Only to remind that COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. :) Looking forward to your comments.
Still no comments? Nobody here in this forum wants to save some electric energy in his/her household? :)
Where is the brave pioneer spirit here in this forum? :) Looking forward to your comments.:)
The text below is a copy of our post of April 24, 12:50:36 PM. (The text below has been published many times in this forum topic.)
----------------------------
Have a look again at the book "Solved Problems in Physics", 2004, Volume 2, p. 876, solved problem 12.97. The author of this book is Prof. S. L. Srivastava (Ph.D.)
The same book can be found at the link https://books.google.bg/books?id=rrKFzLB9KQ8C&pg=PA876&lpg=PA876&dq=%22electrochemical+equivalent+of+hydrogen%22&source=bl&ots=tQ8PSMLet3&sig=ACfU3U2HOLB78XHl2o3q-JanapzSK-McJA&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDpp2-zZXhAhWT5OAKHUfuBzUQ6AEwBHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22electrochemical%20equivalent%20of%20hydrogen%22&f=false
--------------------------
For your convenience I am giving below the text of the problem and its solution.
--------------------------
12.97. In the electrolysis of sulphuric acid solution, 100 mg of hydrogen is liberated in a period of 20 minutes. The resistance of the electrolyte is 0.5 Ohm. Calculate the power consumed. Electrochemical equivalent of hydrogen is 1.044 x 10 -8 kg/C.
SOLUTION.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava stops here his calculations.
(The related solution's set of equations is not given here in order to save time and space. This set of equations however can be found in the book or in the link above.)
--------------------------
WE DEVELOPED FURTHER PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM IN A NON-STANDARD MANNER.
OUR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF PROF. SRIVASTAVA'S SOLVED PROBLEM LED TO COP > 1.
HERE IS THE ESSENCE OF OUR APPROACH.
--------------------------
1) Let us calculate the inlet energy, that is, inlet energy = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J.
2) The Joule's heat, generated in the process of electrolysis is given by
Q = (I) x (I) x (R) x (t) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) x (t) = (31.86 W) x (1200 s) = 38232 Ws = 38232 J = outlet energy 1.
3) HHV of hydrogen is 142 000 000 J/kg. Therefore the heat H, generated by burning/exploding of 0.0001 kg of hydrogen, is given by
H = (HHV) x (m) = (142 000 000) x (0.0001) = 14200 J = outlet energy 2,
where
m = mass of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value oh hydrogen
4) Therefore we can write down the equalities:
4A) outlet energy 1 + outlet energy 2 = 38232 J + 14200 J = 52432 J
4B) inlet energy = 38232 J.
5) Therefore COP is given by
COP = 52432 J/38232 J = 1.37 <=> COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively. Besides 0.0001 kg of hydrogen (and the related amount of the already split pure water) is small enough and can be neglected as a factor influencing the electrolyte's temperature, mass and ohmic resisitance.
-----------------------------
And one more interesting fact.
Literally the same solved problem can be found in an old Russian (still from the Soviet times) book "Сборник задач и вопросов по физике", 1986, p. 130, solved example problem 71. The authors of this book are Р. А. Гладкова and Н. И. Кутиловская. In the Russian version the data is a little different, that is, time is 25 minutes, the amount of generated hydrogen is 150 mg, Ohmic resisitance is 0.4 Ohm and the calculated power is 37 W.
Russians also stopped their calculations at 37 W.
Our further development of the Russian version led to the same COP = 1.37, that is, we have again the same COP > 1.
-----------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE. The text above must be evaluated (SOLELY AND ONLY!) by highly qualified experts (Ph.D.) in electric engineering. Otherwise nothing will come out of it.
-----------------------------
Looking forward to your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Looking forward to your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Still no comments? No one here in this forum wants to save some small amount of electric energy? :)
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Still no positive comments? :)
Where is the brave pioneer spirit here in this forum? :) Where is the brave pioneer spirit, dedicated to new technologies? :)
Waiting for your comments.
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. You could put a standard water-splitting electrolyzer in your basement and save a lot of money while heating your home during winter season. :)
COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1. Nothing can be done against the truth. :)
The truth is your topic in just an attempted scam and click bait.
Your original stupid George1 scam attempt.
This is your original statement and attempt to get money. It is from the
first page of your topic here.
@
https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf
Last page of that PDF is shown below as "George1 stupid scam"
So if you can't get $10,000,000 then what?
You'll take the chump change from monetized hits here instead ?
How much does 138222 Views pay ?
You don't know nothing do you ?
One word answer only.
Yes or No
@George1
Do you George1, believe this simple electric heater has efficiency
greater than 1 ?
Answer is NO, isn't it ?
Personally I think a person has some right to challenge
the proofs of science, its dogmas and so on.
If only that were the purpose for which you started
this topic, I would have not objections ?
Are you still trying to sell your "secret" technology ?
To Floor.
----------------------------
Hi old cheater,:)
1) You again try to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner. Obviously you are not familiar enough with the art of successful manipulation. Your masters will not pay you your month's salary and will beat you. You have to run quickly!:)
2) Look again at my post of March 01, 2021, 03:58:45 PM. Let us proceed further with our previous questions as written in our post of March 01, 2021, 03:58:45 PM.
----------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 27th time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
----------------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 27th time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
@ George1
I repeat my simple question again.
You don't know nothing do you ?
One word answer only.
Yes or No
:)
floor
To JerryVolland an to Floor.
==========================
Hi paid agents of the official science mafia,
Your primitive manipulation techniques do not give any result, this is more than evident. Take some beginner's manipulation techniques guide and study it very, very carefully. Because otherwise you both simply resemble clowns! :)
=========================
Look again at our last post of June 28, 2021, 09:44:18 AM. Let us proceed further with our previous questions as written in our last post of June 28, 2021, 09:44:18 AM.
----------------------------
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution is given below.
Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution consists of two lines only.
LINE 1. Current through the electrolyte is given by I = (m)/(Z x t).
LINE 2. Power consumed = (I) x (I) x (R) = ((m)/(Z x t)) x ((m)/(Z x t)) x (R) = 31.86 W.
---------------------------------------
I am asking you (PERSONALLY!) my question for the 28th time: Is Prof. S. L. Srivastava's solution correct? Yes or no? Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
----------------------------------------
All members of this forum are waiting for your PERSONAL(!) answer for the 28th time. Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!
George
Sorry if I have missed it , your claim has it been built ?
You engage a few men here who build and show their work
Good result or not so good , honestly!
The scientific method or empirical testing with 100% transparency is how we advance .
Math can be a nice start , however your initial claim in post number one seemed simple?
And you mentioned a group you work with?
Have you built the device ? Is it open source ( forum theme)
Can you show it to scientific community here ?(demonstration / lab
Will you take a phone call to discuss this ?
Respectfully
Chet K
Or can the mentioned Professor take a call ?
To ramset.
--------------------------------
Hi ramset,
Hi dear colleague,
Thank you very much for your reply. Within a period at least two months your post is the first reasonable post, related to this topic. Please give us (our team) some time to consider carefully and thoroughly your text and answer all your questions in a proper manner. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
To ramset.
===================
Hi ramset,
Hi dear colleague,
Let us start our explanations. (All considerations in items 1 and 2 below have been experimentally proved within a period of 200 years. But despite of this let us consider again these basic axioms of standard electric engineering.)
----------------------------------
1) Assume that a standard SOLID conductor (a standard copper wire for example) is connected to a standard DC source (a standard fully-charged battery for example) thus forming a circuit. (This circuit is equipped with a standard ohmmeter and with a standard ammeter. Besides you have at your disposal a standard chronometer/clock.) Assume further that the Ohmic resistance R of the SOLID conductor is just equal to 1 Ohm. Assume also that current I of 1 A flows through the SOLID conductor within a period of 1 second. The electric energy, consumed by the SOLID conductor, is just equal to 1 Joule and the heat, generated by the SOLID conductor, is equal to 1 Joule too. The last sentence is a manifestation of the so called first Joule's law of heating. The latter is taken for granted by any electric engineer in the world. No electric engineer in the world measures the generated heat of 1 Joule BY USING OF CALORIMETRY METHODS. Every electric engineer in the world takes for granted the generated heat of 1 Joule.
-----------------------------------
2) The same for any standard LIQUID conductor (electrolyte). Assume that a standard LIQUID conductor (a water solution of CuSO4 for example) is connected to a standard DC source (a standard fully-charged battery for example) thus forming a circuit. (This circuit is equipped with a standard ohmmeter and with a standard ammeter. Besides you have at your disposal a standard chronometer/clock.) Assume further that the Ohmic resistance R of the LIQUID conductor is just equal to 1 Ohm. Assume also that current I of 1 A flows through the LIQUID conductor within a period of 1 second. The electric energy, consumed by the LIQUID conductor, is just equal to 1 Joule and the heat, generated by the LIQUID conductor, is equal to 1 Joule too. The last sentence is a manifestation of the so called first Joule's law of heating. The latter is taken for granted by any electric engineer in the world. No electric engineer in the world measures the generated heat of 1 Joule BY USING OF CALORIMETRY METHODS. Every electric engineer in the world takes for granted the generated heat of 1 Joule.
------------------------------------
3) The question is: Is there any LIQUID conductor (electrolyte), for which the generated heat is not equal to 1 Joule, that is, is there any LIQUID conductor (electrolyte), for which the generated heat is either smaller or bigger than 1 Joule? In other words, is there any LIQUID conductor (electrolyte), for which the first Joule's law of heating is not valid?
------------------------------------
4) If you are an expert in electric engineering, then please answer personally the question, mentioned in previous item 3. If you are not an expert in electric engineering however, then please ask your team's experts in electric engineering the same question.
------------------------------------
(Note. It is extremely important to clarify together the question, mentioned in item 3 above, as it is one of the fundamentals of our concept.)
------------------------------------
5) After clarifying together the question, mentioned in item 3 above, we will proceed further with our next explanations, which will consist of one or two sentences only, and which will show you how to save electric energy in an extremely simple manner.
------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
George
Seems I did a poor job asking the question,
Do you have test results from a working proof of concept ... or
Device ....
to show your simple claim of more power out that in ?
Can a viewing be arranged ( will you take a phone call ?)
To setup an independent lab investigation ?
Respectfully
Chet K
Ps
this is after all an open source forum
And there are members who will help advance a true scientific anomaly!
To ramset.
======================
Hi ramset,
Thank you for your reply.
Good! Very good!
1) To set up an independent lab investigation. Perfectly agree with this.
2) This is after all an open source forum. Yes, I agree. We will share entirely all details of our concept here in this forum.
3) There are members who will help advance a true scientific anomaly. Sounds good! We (our team) would be glad to co-operate with other new technology enthusiasts here in this forum.
4) I understood all your requirements. Please give me some more time to prepare and present here in this forum all our experimental results. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Regards,
To ramset.
===================
Hi ramset,
Hi dear colleague,
We (our team) are preparing now several texts, describing entirely several experiments of ours, respectively. We need some time. Please be patient, if possible. :)
Regards,
To ramset.
======================
Hi ramset,
Here is a detailed description of our first group of experiments.
======================
======================
EXPERIMENT 1.
1) A standard copper wire (a standard SOLID conductor) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through a copper wire of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
=======================
=======================
EXPERIMENT 2.
1) A standard sulphuric acid solution (a standard LIQUID conductor/a standard electrolyte) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through an electrolyte of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
-------------------------------------------
(Note. It is evident that the last items 1 - 7 of this Experiment 2 are absolutely identical to items 1 - 7 of previous Experiment 1. The latter is a clear manifestation of the first Joule' law of heating, which has been experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor.)
-------------------------------------------
8/ While a current of 7.98 A flows through the electrolyte within a period of 1 second however a certain amount of hydrogen has been generated. The mass of the generated hydrogen is just equal to 0.0000000833112 kg as follows from the first Faraday's law of electrolysis.
9) Please note that in order to get the mass of the released hydrogen we need solely and only (a) two experimental results (7.98 A and 1 second) and (b) two related measuring devices (an ammeter and a chronometer). No expert in electrochemistry in the world would measure the mass of the generated hydrogen by using of balance, scales or any other weighing machine. Every expert in electrochemistry in the world would take for granted this mass of 0.0000000833112 kg. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
10) If we burn/explode the released hydrogen, then a certain amount of heat would be generated. And this heat would be just equal to 11.83 J . In other words, we can write down the equality
H = (HHV) x (m) = 11.83 J,
where
H = heat generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg
m = mass of the released hydrogen = 0.0000000833112 kg
11) Please note that no expert in thermodynamics in the world would measure the generated heat of 11.83 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every expert in thermodynamics in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 11.83 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
12) In one word, on one hand we have a consumed electric energy of 31.84 J and this is the inlet energy. On the other hand we have (a) Joule's heat of 31.84 J and (b) heat H of 11.83 J, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. The sum of the two last pieces of energy is just equal to the outlet energy.
13) Therefore we can write down the inequalities
(31.84 J) + (11.83 J) > 31.84 J <=> 43.67 J > 31.84 J <=> outlet energy > inlet energy.
14) For the efficiency/COP of the above described process we can write down the equality
efficiency = COP = (43.67 J)/(31.84 J) = 1.37
15) And it is evident that COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
==============================
==============================
SUMMARY.
1) The above experimental results for inlet and outlet energies are based on:
a) the readings of three standard measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer);
b) the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor);
c) the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte);
d) the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years).
2) In one word, having in mind the text above we can conclude that any of the millions (either industrial or laboratory) standard electrolyzers all over the world is actually a heater, which has COP/efficiency greater than 1.
-----------------------------------------------------
(Note. Any standard (either industrial or laboratory) electrolyzer could be designed as a built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger. In this way there would be more emphasis on cramming more heat-transfer surfaces into less and less volume. This approach could be suitable for a better utilization of the released Joule's heat. Besides the same built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger design could be used for the box/container, in which the burning of the released hydrogen would take place. In this way as if there would be a better utilization of the heat, generated by the burning of the released hydrogen.)
------------------------------------------------------
3) If the first Joule's law of heating and/or the first Faraday's law of electrolysis and/or the value of the hydrogen's HHV proved to be experimentally invalid, then this fact would lead to the creation of entirely new and revolutionary branch of science and technology. The latter would be a wonderful alternative too.
===============================
===============================
That's all about our first group of experiments.
Looking forward to your answer.
To ramset.
======================
And here is a short description of our second group of experiments.
1) Actually our second group of experiments is absolutely identical to our first group of experiments (the latter being described in our previous post) with the only difference that Ohmic resistance is decreased 10 times and as a result the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.05 Ohm. In this case:
a) the consumed electric energy is equal to 3.184 J;
b) the generated Joule's heat is equal to 3.184 J too;
c) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen, is equal to 11.83 J (which is just the same as in our first group of experiments),
2) So for efficiency/COP we can write down the equalities
COP = ((3.184 J) + (11.83 J))/(3.184 J) <=> COP = (15.014 J)/(3.184 J) <=> COP = 4.72
3) It is evident that
COP = 4.72 <=> COP > 1.
4) In one word, (keeping constant current I and time period t) the smaller the Ohmic resistance R, the bigger the efficiency/COP.
----------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
----------------------------------------
P.S. We are working now over our third group of experiments and over the related descriptive text. But it is not an easy job. It will take some time.
George
The question simplified
Will your team give a demonstration at your location ( and allow measurements)??
Can you take a phone call to discuss this ?
Respectfully
Chet K
To ramset.
====================
Hi ramset,
Thank you for your reply.
1) Well, we (our team) will consider thoroughly and will think carefully over your suggestion for giving a demonstration at our location (and allow measurements, respectively).
2) If we agree with your suggestion, then what kind of experts (experts in what field of knowledge and expertise) would make the related measurements? And how many experts of yours would visit our laboratory?
3) Would your experts use our measuring devices or they would prefer to use their own measuring devices? (As mentioned in our previous posts the only necessary measuring devices are (a) a standard ammeter, (b) a standard ohmmeter and (c) a standard chronometer.)
4) How exactly would you suggest to realize a possible phone contact?
Looking forward to your answer.
-------------------------------------
P. S. Wouldn't be much easier for you if you just copy the two groups of experiments as described in our previous posts? Use only a standard copper wire, a standard laboratory electrolyzer and only three standard measuring devices (a standard ammeter, a standard ohmmeter and a standard chronometer), which you can use for measuring of (a) current of 1 A, (b) Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm (and after that of 0.05 Ohm) and (c) a time interval of 1 second, respectively. Simple, easy and clear DIY experiments, that can be carried out even in your garage. Don't you think so?
To ramset.
=====================
1) All you need is:
a) a standard copper wire;
b) a standard laboratory electrolyzer;
c) a standard ammeter;
d) a standard ohmmeter;
e) a standard chronometer.
2) Using the above five simply carry out (just copy) the experiments, described in our previous posts of July 03, 2021, 09:45:10 AM and July 05, 2021, 10:47:41 AM
---------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
====================
P.S. About your suggestion for a possible phone contact between your team and our team. To exchange phone numbers directly here in this forum seems to be not a very good idea. Because as if not all members of this forum are honest persons of good will. Don't you think so?
Chetkremens@gmail.com
To ramset.
=====================
Thank you for sending me your email. Your suggestion for a possible phone contact will be discussed among our team. The discussion will take some time however.
=====================
Meanwhile you could carry out (even in your garage!) the simple experiments, described below.
--------------------------------------
1) All you need (as a technology equipment) is:
a) a standard copper wire;
b) a standard laboratory electrolyzer;
c) a standard ammeter;
d) a standard ohmmeter;
e) a standard chronometer.
--------------------------------------
2) All you need (as a group of qualified experts) is:
a) an expert in electric engineering (Ph.D.);
b) an expert in electrochemistry (Ph.D.);
c) an expert in thermodynamics (Ph.D.).
--------------------------------------
3) Having at your disposal (a) the above mentioned technology equipment and (b) the above mentioned group of experts simply carry out (just copy) the experiments, described in our previous posts of July 03, 2021, 09:45:10 AM and July 05, 2021, 10:47:41 AM.
---------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Here an understanding of why I am here ( and many others)
A mission statement from your/our host ( Stefan Hartmann
When you are ready to talk ?
Let me know ,( but not about business , or investors or ?? this is wrong forum for that !)
Yes there are Angel Donors who would contribute to a scientifically vetted , world changing technology
Which would fit open source mission statement posted here!
Respectfully
Chet K
To ramset.
==================
Hi ramset,
1) Well, there is some misunderstanding here. May be I have not explained the things in a proper manner.
2) The new heater concept technology information, described here in overunity.com, is released ABSOLUTELY FREE!
3) We (our team) would not like to make money from this freely released technology information!
4) We (our team) would like to win only public recognition of our new heater technology concept! And that's all!
5) Can you help us to realize practically the previous item 4?
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
You have my email above
As mentioned prior
Only independent replication of claim once demonstrated at lab will accomplish your goal,
Global Open source community has incredible resources to accomplish this ,
Please call me to arrange a test demonstration at your lab.( perhaps even zoom or similar will suffice )
your scientist/team can take a call from one of our open source scientists?
After vetting claim at your lab , replications can begin with full pdf for open source
Release
Respectfully
Chet K
To ramset.
=====================
1) Global Open source community? What is this? Some kind of organization? Would you be so polite to provide some more information about this Global Open source community? Is this the community of this forum?
2) You wrote: "Your scientist/team can take a call from one of our open source scientists." Who are these open source scientists of yours and what are their names? And what are their phone numbers and/or emails? Or may be your open source scientists have some specialized websites?
--------------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
Regards,
As example
http://ikkem.com/iccf-23.php (http://ikkem.com/iccf-23.php)
LENR community is open source community
As mentioned already if you are interested In advancing
Your claim
We will need to talk about an actual demonstration of your claim
Showing your gain!
I can connect you with qualified persons to vet your claim and prove it's veracity
This has been mentioned several times already ?
For clarity persons would be associated with Global Open source LENR community !
As well as others dedicated to advancing science!
As mentioned
We would need to talk about setting this up at your lab!
Or wherever you can show your work and testing protocols.
Respectfully
Chet K
To ramset.
===================
Hi ramset/Chet K,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Please give me some time to consider carefully and thoroughly your last post. I will write to you in the nearest future.
Sincerely yours,
George 1
To ramset (1).
===================
Hi ramset,
1) Firstly, we would not like to reveal for the present the locations of our laboratories and/or the names of our team's members.
2) Secondly, let me explain again. Our concept has nothing to do with nuclear reactions. It is not necessary to engage experts in nuclear reactions. It is necessary to engage experts in electric engineering, electrochemistry and thermodynamics. (Engaging of experts in general physics would be acceptable and suitable too.)
3) Please send to me, if possible, the names (or pseudonims) and email addresses of at least 3 (three) experts of yours in order to contact them directly.
4) Fourthly, please look at our next post.
To ramset (2).
===================
Hi again ramset,
If you do not want to reveal the names/pseudonims of your experts and their email addresses, then simply copy the text below and show it to your experts. IF YOUR EXPERTS ARE REALLY EXPERTS, then they would immediately evaluate the essence of our concept and would immediately carry out the related experiments within a period of (no more than) 5 minutes.
----------------------------------
And here is the text for your experts.
===================
BEGINNING OF THE TEXT FOR YOUR EXPERTS.
===================
===================
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT BELOW DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
======================
Here is a detailed description of our first group of experiments.
======================
======================
EXPERIMENT 1.
1) A standard copper wire (a standard SOLID conductor) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through a copper wire of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
=======================
=======================
EXPERIMENT 2.
1) A standard sulphuric acid solution (a standard LIQUID conductor/a standard electrolyte) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through an electrolyte of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
-------------------------------------------
(Note. It is evident that the last items 1 - 7 of this Experiment 2 are absolutely identical to items 1 - 7 of previous Experiment 1. The latter is a clear manifestation of the first Joule' law of heating, which has been experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor.)
-------------------------------------------
8/ While a current of 7.98 A flows through the electrolyte within a period of 1 second however a certain amount of hydrogen has been generated. The mass of the generated hydrogen is just equal to 0.0000000833112 kg as follows from the first Faraday's law of electrolysis.
9) Please note that in order to get the mass of the released hydrogen we need solely and only (a) two experimental results (7.98 A and 1 second) and (b) two related measuring devices (an ammeter and a chronometer). No expert in electrochemistry in the world would measure the mass of the generated hydrogen by using of balance, scales or any other weighing machine. Every expert in electrochemistry in the world would take for granted this mass of 0.0000000833112 kg. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
10) If we burn/explode the released hydrogen, then a certain amount of heat would be generated. And this heat would be just equal to 11.83 J . In other words, we can write down the equality
H = (HHV) x (m) = 11.83 J,
where
H = heat generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg
m = mass of the released hydrogen = 0.0000000833112 kg
11) Please note that no expert in thermodynamics in the world would measure the generated heat of 11.83 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every expert in thermodynamics in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 11.83 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
12) In one word, on one hand we have a consumed electric energy of 31.84 J and this is the inlet energy. On the other hand we have (a) Joule's heat of 31.84 J and (b) heat H of 11.83 J, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. The sum of the two last pieces of energy is just equal to the outlet energy.
13) Therefore we can write down the inequalities
(31.84 J) + (11.83 J) > 31.84 J <=> 43.67 J > 31.84 J <=> outlet energy > inlet energy.
14) For the efficiency/COP of the above described process we can write down the equality
efficiency = COP = (43.67 J)/(31.84 J) = 1.37
15) And it is evident that COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
==============================
==============================
SUMMARY.
1) The above experimental results for inlet and outlet energies are based on:
a) the readings of three standard measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer);
b) the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor);
c) the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte);
d) the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years).
2) In one word, having in mind the text above we can conclude that any of the millions (either industrial or laboratory) standard electrolyzers all over the world is actually a heater, which has COP/efficiency greater than 1.
-----------------------------------------------------
(Note. Any standard (either industrial or laboratory) electrolyzer could be designed as a built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger. In this way there would be more emphasis on cramming more heat-transfer surfaces into less and less volume. This approach could be suitable for a better utilization of the released Joule's heat. Besides the same built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger design could be used for the box/container, in which the burning of the released hydrogen would take place. In this way as if there would be a better utilization of the heat, generated by the burning of the released hydrogen.)
------------------------------------------------------
3) If the first Joule's law of heating and/or the first Faraday's law of electrolysis and/or the value of the hydrogen's HHV proved to be experimentally invalid, then this fact would lead to the creation of entirely new and revolutionary branch of science and technology. The latter would be a wonderful alternative too.
===============================
===============================
That's all about our first group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
And here is a short description of our second group of experiments.
1) Actually our second group of experiments is absolutely identical to our first group of experiments (the latter being described in our previous post) with the only difference that Ohmic resistance is decreased 10 times and as a result the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.05 Ohm. In this case:
a) the consumed electric energy is equal to 3.184 J;
b) the generated Joule's heat is equal to 3.184 J too;
c) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen, is equal to 11.83 J (which is just the same as in our first group of experiments),
2) So for efficiency/COP we can write down the equalities
COP = ((3.184 J) + (11.83 J))/(3.184 J) <=> COP = (15.014 J)/(3.184 J) <=> COP = 4.72
3) It is evident that
COP = 4.72 <=> COP > 1.
4) In one word, (keeping constant current I and time period t) the smaller the Ohmic resistance R, the bigger the efficiency/COP.
===============================
===============================
There is a third group of experiments of ours, which has even a greater scientific, technology and commercial value than the above described two groups of experiments of ours. But for the present we would not like to reveal the secret of our third group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT ABOVE DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
===============================
===============================
END OF THE TEXT FOR YOUR EXPERTS.
===============================
Looking forward to your answer.
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT BELOW DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
======================
Here is a detailed description of our first group of experiments.
======================
======================
EXPERIMENT 1.
1) A standard copper wire (a standard SOLID conductor) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through a copper wire of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
=======================
=======================
EXPERIMENT 2.
1) A standard sulphuric acid solution (a standard LIQUID conductor/a standard electrolyte) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through an electrolyte of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
-------------------------------------------
(Note. It is evident that the last items 1 - 7 of this Experiment 2 are absolutely identical to items 1 - 7 of previous Experiment 1. The latter is a clear manifestation of the first Joule' law of heating, which has been experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor.)
-------------------------------------------
8/ While a current of 7.98 A flows through the electrolyte within a period of 1 second however a certain amount of hydrogen has been generated. The mass of the generated hydrogen is just equal to 0.0000000833112 kg as follows from the first Faraday's law of electrolysis.
9) Please note that in order to get the mass of the released hydrogen we need solely and only (a) two experimental results (7.98 A and 1 second) and (b) two related measuring devices (an ammeter and a chronometer). No expert in electrochemistry in the world would measure the mass of the generated hydrogen by using of balance, scales or any other weighing machine. Every expert in electrochemistry in the world would take for granted this mass of 0.0000000833112 kg. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
10) If we burn/explode the released hydrogen, then a certain amount of heat would be generated. And this heat would be just equal to 11.83 J . In other words, we can write down the equality
H = (HHV) x (m) = 11.83 J,
where
H = heat generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg
m = mass of the released hydrogen = 0.0000000833112 kg
11) Please note that no expert in thermodynamics in the world would measure the generated heat of 11.83 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every expert in thermodynamics in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 11.83 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
12) In one word, on one hand we have a consumed electric energy of 31.84 J and this is the inlet energy. On the other hand we have (a) Joule's heat of 31.84 J and (b) heat H of 11.83 J, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. The sum of the two last pieces of energy is just equal to the outlet energy.
13) Therefore we can write down the inequalities
(31.84 J) + (11.83 J) > 31.84 J <=> 43.67 J > 31.84 J <=> outlet energy > inlet energy.
14) For the efficiency/COP of the above described process we can write down the equality
efficiency = COP = (43.67 J)/(31.84 J) = 1.37
15) And it is evident that COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
==============================
==============================
SUMMARY.
1) The above experimental results for inlet and outlet energies are based on:
a) the readings of three standard measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer);
b) the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor);
c) the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte);
d) the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years).
2) In one word, having in mind the text above we can conclude that any of the millions (either industrial or laboratory) standard electrolyzers all over the world is actually a heater, which has COP/efficiency greater than 1.
-----------------------------------------------------
(Note. Any standard (either industrial or laboratory) electrolyzer could be designed as a built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger. In this way there would be more emphasis on cramming more heat-transfer surfaces into less and less volume. This approach could be suitable for a better utilization of the released Joule's heat. Besides the same built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger design could be used for the box/container, in which the burning of the released hydrogen would take place. In this way as if there would be a better utilization of the heat, generated by the burning of the released hydrogen.)
------------------------------------------------------
3) If the first Joule's law of heating and/or the first Faraday's law of electrolysis and/or the value of the hydrogen's HHV proved to be experimentally invalid, then this fact would lead to the creation of entirely new and revolutionary branch of science and technology. The latter would be a wonderful alternative too.
===============================
===============================
That's all about our first group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
And here is a short description of our second group of experiments.
1) Actually our second group of experiments is absolutely identical to our first group of experiments (the latter being described in our previous post) with the only difference that Ohmic resistance is decreased 10 times and as a result the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.05 Ohm. In this case:
a) the consumed electric energy is equal to 3.184 J;
b) the generated Joule's heat is equal to 3.184 J too;
c) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen, is equal to 11.83 J (which is just the same as in our first group of experiments),
2) So for efficiency/COP we can write down the equalities
COP = ((3.184 J) + (11.83 J))/(3.184 J) <=> COP = (15.014 J)/(3.184 J) <=> COP = 4.72
3) It is evident that
COP = 4.72 <=> COP > 1.
4) In one word, (keeping constant current I and time period t) the smaller the Ohmic resistance R, the bigger the efficiency/COP.
===============================
===============================
There is a third group of experiments of ours, which has even a greater scientific, technology and commercial value than the above described two groups of experiments of ours. But for the present we would not like to reveal the secret of our third group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT ABOVE DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
===============================
Looking forward to your answer.
There is a quantity of energy unaccounted for in your assessment George.
It is roughly 11J; more precisely the other half of the electrolysis equation,
which balances your inequality.
That is, the portion of electricity not directly converted to heat.
(38-11= ~ 27J converted directly to heat)
Please adjust your math.
My second point of mention will be the change in current over time.
As water molecules are split into their base gasses,
the resistance of your 'water circuit' changes. (in most physical configurations)
To sm0ky2.
===================
Hi sm0ky2,
Thank you for your two replies.
----------------------------------
1) Well, I will check whether the related value is 11.83 J or roughly 11 J as you say. But even if it is roughly 11 J, then the final result value will be practically the same. (The final result value will be actually a little smaller.) But anyway thank you for your valuable remark.
2) If the water-splitting electrolysis process takes place within a period of 1 second, then the current and the Ohmic resistance remain practically constant.
3) But yes, you are absolutely right, that if the water-splitting electrolysis process takes place within a period of, let's say, many hours without any interrruptions for example, then current decreases over time and Ohmic resistance increases over time. But this problem can be easily solved by simply adding pure water in the electrolyte. (Please have a look at our post of May 01, 2021, 11:48:47 AM, in which it is clearly explained that: ".......Constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively........". Please consider carefully and thoroughly our post of May 01, 2021, 11:48:47 AM, if you like.)
---------------------------------
Looking forward to your answer.
To sm0ky2.
====================
I would like to thank you again for your last two constructive and valuable comments. Hope that we could work together and co-operate.
Looking forward to your answer.
It cannot be exactly your 11.83J
Because there are other (minescule) energies emitting
often in RF, light (visible and otherwise), EM, etc.
Calorically all of these add up to our theoretical thermal value.
Do not forget, the reason changes in R become noticeable over time
Is because the molar count of water changes, as does concentration
of electrolyte. Even over 1 second of time this value can be calculated.
The hydronium and hydrogen ions carry their own electric charge and subsequently
moving fields, the mathematics on this become quite complex but can be reduced to
convection transforms which we do anyways to determine the thermal flow during combustion.
This can be controlled experimentally with an applied external electric field to obtain more
observable thermal conduction.
A more simplified experiment with similar results would be an arc-welder.
(or a spark gap to a thermally conductive plate and appropriate sensor)
We see experimentally the same thermal results even by omitting the extra steps.
In open air, hydrogen will (over several seconds) burn around 10,000F
An equivalent sustained spark will do the same.
Clausius isn't going to roll in his grave over this issue.
To sm0ky2.
======================
Hi sm0ky2,
But you are not reading my posts, dear colleague! Please read carefully an thoroughly again (and many times, if necessary) our two posts of July 21, 2021, 01:35:10 PM and of July 22, 2021, 12:32:49 PM.
---------------------------------------
But it's ok, let us start from the very beginning again. Please answer the four questions below.
---------------------------------------
1) Do you accept the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
2) Do you accept the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
3) Do you accept the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years). Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
4) Do you accept the validity of the simple obvious fact that while electrolysis takes place "...constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively..."? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
----------------------------------------
Looking forward to your four answers.
To sm0ky2 (and to all other colleagues, who are interested in this topic).
======================
Please read carefully an thoroughly (and many times, if necessary) our two posts of July 21, 2021, 01:35:10 PM and of July 22, 2021, 12:32:49 PM.
---------------------------------------
Please answer the four questions below.
---------------------------------------
1) Do you accept the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
2) Do you accept the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
3) Do you accept the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years). Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
4) Do you accept the validity of the simple obvious fact that while electrolysis takes place "...constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively..."? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
----------------------------------------
Looking forward to your four answers.
I do not accept your generalized summary.
You are missing information.
If you truly have the test apparatus you claim to have,
it should be very easy to observe the mistakes in your theory.
If you need further clues:
Measure the voltage drop across a resistor placed externally to the electrolysis chamber.
You will see that a good deal of the power going into the system does not end up at ground.
This is much different than the solid conductor.
To sm0ky2.
=====================
No, I am not missing information. But it is more than evident for all honest members of good will of this forum that you keep constantly distorting my words, and you keep constantly imitating lack of understanding thus trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner. You are simply the next clumsy manipulator, who tries to make some money by serving the official science mafia. You are simply an unworthy person! Shame on you!
=====================
Asking my four questions for the 2nd time.
---------------------------------------
1) Do you accept the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
2) Do you accept the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
3) Do you accept the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years). Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
4) Do you accept the validity of the simple obvious fact that while electrolysis takes place "...constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively..."? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
----------------------------------------
Looking forward to your four answers for the 2nd time.
To George1
You are missing information also it is evident for all honest members of good will of this forum that you constantly distort other peoples words, and are trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner.
You are nothing more than a troll presenting a false premise here, offering nothing and
having nothing to back your idiotic claim up with.
This is a stupid game you play.
Demand response to your stupid question forever more .
This is an interesting debate...
It looks like George is using the composition/division fallacy. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division
QuoteYou assumed that one part of something has to be applied to all, or other, parts of it; or that the whole must apply to its parts.
Often when something is true for the part it does also apply to the whole, or vice versa, but the crucial difference is whether there exists good evidence to show that this is the case. Because we observe consistencies in things, our thinking can become biased so that we presume consistency to exist where it does not.
He is arguing that just because experiment 1 is true and experiment 2 is also true that experiment 1 + 2 must also be true. In another variation one could argue a cat is real and a dog is also real which must mean a Dog-Cat must also be real but obviously isn't.
Most new to electrodynamics often make similar composition mistakes. Many decades ago when I first started I once thought that if a current source A charged battery B then by placing a light bulb between (A and B) I could do more work. However this was not the case and the dissipation of energy in the bulb reduced the battery charge current by an equivalent amount. These two concepts are very similar and George would seem to have made a similar error in my opinion.
Regards
AC
To those stubborn amateurs here in this forum, who simply reject obvious physical reality.
=============================================
=============================================
Don't beat about the bush! And stop generating endless rows of absurd and ridiculous arguments, which have nothing to do with the topic! Because you already resemble clowns!
==============================================
Read carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the short text below and answer the two simple questions at the end of the text!
==============================================
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply answer the above two simple questions.
Looking forward to your two answers.
Why do you ask others, instead of measuring these for your self ?
Perhaps, George, you do have all the information.
I should have said that "I" am missing information
"standard H2SO4 solution", (of what concentration?)
Approx. 15.96V (is this DC?, from a battery a power supply?)
What are the electrode materials and surface area?
Molar count or at least an approximate volume?
Distance between electrodes?
Because of the PH, i also need the starting temperature.
Or of course, if you feel you are correct, we can skip all of this
And you could just loop your system to make it power itself.
To Floor.
===============================
But you are not reading my posts, dear colleague! Please read carefully my post of July 21, 2021, 01:35:10 PM, which describes in detail a bunch of REAL EXPERIMENTS! For your convenience I am giving below again the text of my post of July 21, 2021, 01:35:10 PM.
===============================
===============================
BEGINNING OF THE TEXT.
===============================
===============================
===============================
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT BELOW DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
======================
Here is a detailed description of our first group of experiments.
======================
======================
EXPERIMENT 1.
1) A standard copper wire (a standard SOLID conductor) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through a copper wire of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
=======================
=======================
EXPERIMENT 2.
1) A standard sulphuric acid solution (a standard LIQUID conductor/a standard electrolyte) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through an electrolyte of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
-------------------------------------------
(Note. It is evident that the last items 1 - 7 of this Experiment 2 are absolutely identical to items 1 - 7 of previous Experiment 1. The latter is a clear manifestation of the first Joule' law of heating, which has been experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor.)
-------------------------------------------
8/ While a current of 7.98 A flows through the electrolyte within a period of 1 second however a certain amount of hydrogen has been generated. The mass of the generated hydrogen is just equal to 0.0000000833112 kg as follows from the first Faraday's law of electrolysis.
9) Please note that in order to get the mass of the released hydrogen we need solely and only (a) two experimental results (7.98 A and 1 second) and (b) two related measuring devices (an ammeter and a chronometer). No expert in electrochemistry in the world would measure the mass of the generated hydrogen by using of balance, scales or any other weighing machine. Every expert in electrochemistry in the world would take for granted this mass of 0.0000000833112 kg. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
10) If we burn/explode the released hydrogen, then a certain amount of heat would be generated. And this heat would be just equal to 11.83 J . In other words, we can write down the equality
H = (HHV) x (m) = 11.83 J,
where
H = heat generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg
m = mass of the released hydrogen = 0.0000000833112 kg
11) Please note that no expert in thermodynamics in the world would measure the generated heat of 11.83 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every expert in thermodynamics in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 11.83 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
12) In one word, on one hand we have a consumed electric energy of 31.84 J and this is the inlet energy. On the other hand we have (a) Joule's heat of 31.84 J and (b) heat H of 11.83 J, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. The sum of the two last pieces of energy is just equal to the outlet energy.
13) Therefore we can write down the inequalities
(31.84 J) + (11.83 J) > 31.84 J <=> 43.67 J > 31.84 J <=> outlet energy > inlet energy.
14) For the efficiency/COP of the above described process we can write down the equality
efficiency = COP = (43.67 J)/(31.84 J) = 1.37
15) And it is evident that COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
==============================
==============================
SUMMARY.
1) The above experimental results for inlet and outlet energies are based on:
a) the readings of three standard measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer);
b) the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor);
c) the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte);
d) the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years).
2) In one word, having in mind the text above we can conclude that any of the millions (either industrial or laboratory) standard electrolyzers all over the world is actually a heater, which has COP/efficiency greater than 1.
-----------------------------------------------------
(Note. Any standard (either industrial or laboratory) electrolyzer could be designed as a built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger. In this way there would be more emphasis on cramming more heat-transfer surfaces into less and less volume. This approach could be suitable for a better utilization of the released Joule's heat. Besides the same built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger design could be used for the box/container, in which the burning of the released hydrogen would take place. In this way as if there would be a better utilization of the heat, generated by the burning of the released hydrogen.)
------------------------------------------------------
3) If the first Joule's law of heating and/or the first Faraday's law of electrolysis and/or the value of the hydrogen's HHV proved to be experimentally invalid, then this fact would lead to the creation of entirely new and revolutionary branch of science and technology. The latter would be a wonderful alternative too.
===============================
===============================
That's all about our first group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
And here is a short description of our second group of experiments.
1) Actually our second group of experiments is absolutely identical to our first group of experiments (the latter being described in our previous post) with the only difference that Ohmic resistance is decreased 10 times and as a result the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.05 Ohm. In this case:
a) the consumed electric energy is equal to 3.184 J;
b) the generated Joule's heat is equal to 3.184 J too;
c) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen, is equal to 11.83 J (which is just the same as in our first group of experiments),
2) So for efficiency/COP we can write down the equalities
COP = ((3.184 J) + (11.83 J))/(3.184 J) <=> COP = (15.014 J)/(3.184 J) <=> COP = 4.72
3) It is evident that
COP = 4.72 <=> COP > 1.
4) In one word, (keeping constant current I and time period t) the smaller the Ohmic resistance R, the bigger the efficiency/COP.
===============================
===============================
There is a third group of experiments of ours, which has even a greater scientific, technology and commercial value than the above described two groups of experiments of ours. But for the present we would not like to reveal the secret of our third group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT ABOVE DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
===============================
===============================
===============================
END OF THE TEXT.
===============================
Do you have any objections against any part of the text above?
Looking forward to your answer.
To sm0ky2.
===============================
Ah, this is already another song! :) This is already a constructive dialogue! :)
We will consider carefully your last post and will write to you in the nearest future.
It is during experiment 2 where you have slipped one in.
You did not measure this quantity of 'heat'.
You ASSUMED it was there because of experiment 1.
However you did not account for the non-thermal energies, some of which result in free ions.
To sm0ky2.
=========================
Do you accept the fact/axiom, that the first Joule's law of heating is valid for any standard liquid conductor/electrolyte?
Read carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the short text below and answer the two simple questions at the end of the text!
==============================================
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply answer the above two simple questions.
Looking forward to your two answers for the 3rd time.
@George1
So..
1. We connect two electrodes, one to each end of a pine wood log.
2. We pass an electric current through the wood, until it heats
sufficiently enough to catch fire.
3. We measure the calories of heat produced by the resistive heating of the log.
4. We measure the calories of heat produced by the combustion of the log.
5. We measure the total electric power used during the process.
and VOILA
Over unity ?
floor
I would go and explain how the universe was created.
In every single scientific understanding the universe was created from nothing, does it make it over unity i am not quite sure how to explain in scientific understanding.
It is easy to understand that the concept that you cannot create nor destroy and the obvious question is that what created the universe if you cannot create to begin with?
Dan.
To lltfdaniel1.
===========================
Hi Dan,
Thank you for your post. The latter seems to very interesting. Would you be so polite to give some more details?
Regards,
To Floor.
=========================
ANSWER THE TWO QUESTIONS BELOW, YOU WISEACRE! ARE YOU ILLITERATE?!
=========================
Consider carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y and answer the two simple questions at the end of the text!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply answer the above two simple questions.
Looking forward to your two answers for the 4th time.
Quote from: Floor on August 06, 2021, 01:47:10 PM
@George1
So..
1. We connect two electrodes, one to each end of a pine wood log.
2. We pass an electric current through the wood, until it heats
sufficiently enough to catch fire.
3. We measure the calories of heat produced by the resistive heating of the log.
4. We measure the calories of heat produced by the combustion of the log.
5. We measure the total electric power used during the process.
and VOILA
Over unity ?
floor
Just answer the question George1
To Floor.
=========================
YOU KEEP FAILING TO MANIPULATE THE AUDIENCE IN A SUCCESSFUL MANNER AND BECAUSE OF THIS YOUR MASTERS WILL NOT PAY YOU YOUR MONTH'S SALLARY! AND EVEN WORSE -- YOUR MASTERS WILL BEAT YOU! YOU HAVE TO RUN QUICKLY!
=========================
Consider carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y and answer the two simple questions at the end of the text!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply answer the above two simple questions.
Looking forward to your two answers for the 5th time.
Answer this question George1
So..
1. We connect two electrodes, one to each end of a pine wood log.
2. We pass an electric current through the wood, until it heats
sufficiently enough to catch fire.
3. We measure the calories of heat produced by the resistive heating of the log.
4. We measure the calories of heat produced by the combustion of the log.
5. We measure the total electric power used during the process.
and VOILA
Over unity ?
floor
Quote from: George1 on August 08, 2021, 07:25:48 AM
To lltfdaniel1.
===========================
Hi Dan,
Thank you for your post. The latter seems to very interesting. Would you be so polite to give some more details?
Regards,
Yes this is only for food for thought,
Please visit this link, https://100777.com/spiritual/beings_having_a_physical_experience or read below
THE VOID OF NOTHINGNESS
Suddenly I seemed to be rocketing away from the planet on this stream of Life. I saw the earth fly away. The solar system, in all its splendor, whizzed by and disappeared. At faster than light speed, I flew through the center of the galaxy, absorbing more knowledge as I went. I learned that this galaxy, and all of the Universe, is bursting with many different varieties of LIFE. I saw many worlds. The good news is that we are not alone in this Universe!
http://jahtruth.net/etvisit.htm
As I rode this stream of consciousness through the center of the galaxy, the stream was expanding in awesome fractal waves of energy. The super clusters of galaxies with all their ancient wisdom flew by. At first I thought I was going somewhere; actually traveling. But then I realized that, as the stream was expanding, my own consciousness was also expanding (seeking - JAH) to take in everything in the Universe! All creation passed by me. It was an unimaginable wonder! I truly was a Wonder Child; a babe in Wonderland!
It seemed as if all the creations in the Universe soared by me and vanished in a speck of Light. Almost immediately, a second Light appeared. It came from all sides, and was so different; a Light made up of more than every frequency in the Universe. I felt and heard several velvety sonic booms again. My consciousness, or being, was expanding to interface with the entire Holographic Universe and more.
As I passed into the second Light, the awareness came to me that I had just transcended the Truth*. Those are the best words I have for it, but I will try to explain. As I passed into the second Light, I expanded beyond the First Light. I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond Infinity.
* The Truth that he - the Being part of a human+Being - is not human - JAH.
I was in the Void.
I was in pre-creation. I had crossed over the beginning of time - the First Word - the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness.
When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That's a mind-expanding thought, isn't it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang (theory) as a single event which created the Universe. I saw that the Big Bang (theory) is only one of an infinite number of (so-called) Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by supercomputers using fractal geometry equations.
The ancients knew of this. They said Godhead periodically created new Universes by breathing out, and de-creating other Universes by breathing in. These epochs were called Yugas. Modern science called this the Big Bang (theory). I was in absolute, pure consciousness. I could see or perceive all the Big Bangs or Yugas creating and de-creating themselves. Instantly I entered into them all simultaneously. I saw that each and every little piece of creation has the power to create. It is very difficult to try to explain this. I am still speechless about this.
It took me years after I returned to assimilate any words at all for the Void experience. I can tell you this now; the Void is less than nothing, yet more than everything that is! The Void is Absolute Consciousness; much more than even Universal Intelligence.
Where is the Void? I know. The Void* is inside and outside everything. You, right now even while you live, are always inside and outside the Void simultaneously. You don't have to go anywhere or die to get there. The Void is the vacuum or nothingness between all physical manifestations. The SPACE between atoms and their components.
* The Force - JAH.
King of kings' Bible - Thomas 1:6 But the Kingdom is within you and it is without you.
1:7 If you will know yourselves, then you will be known and you will know that you are the sons of the Living Father.
1:8 But if you do not know yourselves, then you are in poverty and you ARE poverty.
http://jahtruth.net/kofkad.htm
Modern science has begun to study this space between everything. They call it Zero-point. Whenever they try to measure it, their instruments go off the scale, or to infinity, so to speak. They have no way, as of yet, to measure infinity accurately*. There is more of the zero space in your own body and the Universe than anything else!
* How could a finite object measure infinity? How can infinity be zero, except in man's illogic? - JAH.
What mystics call the Void is not a void. It is so full of energy*, a different kind of energy that has created everything that we are. Everything since the (supposed - JAH) Big Bang is vibration, from the first Word, which is the first vibration.
* The Force - JAH.
http://jahtruth.net/starwar.htm
So creation is God exploring God's Self through every way imaginable, in an ongoing, infinite exploration through every one of us. Through every piece of hair on your head, through every leaf on every tree, through every atom, God is exploring God's Self, the great "I am". I began to see that everything that is, is part of God, literally, you, me. Everything is part of the Great Self. That is why God knows even when a leaf falls. That is possible because wherever you are, there is God, the center of the universe. Wherever any atom is, there is God in that atom, and God in the Void.
As I was exploring the Void and all the Yugas or creations, I was completely out of time and space as we know it. In this expanded state, I discovered that creation is about Absolute Pure Consciousness, or God, coming into the Experience of Life as we know it. Godhead is about more than Life and Death. Therefore there is even more than Life and Death to experience in the Universe!
http://jahtruth.net/noti.htm
I was in the Void and I was aware of everything that had ever been created. It was like I was seeing through God's eyes. I had become part of God. Suddenly I wasn't me anymore. The only thing I can say, I was looking through God's eyes. And suddenly I knew why every atom was, and I could see everything. The interesting point was that I went into the Void, I came back with this understanding that God is not there. God is here. That's what it is all about.
http://jahtruth.net/noti.htm
So this constant search of the human race to go out and find God ... God gave everything to us, everything is here - this is where we find Him.
When I realized this, I was finished with the Void, and wanted to return to this creation, or Yuga. It just seemed like the natural thing to do. Then I suddenly came back through the second Light, hearing several more velvet booms. I rode the stream of consciousness back through all of creation, and what a ride it was! The super clusters of galaxies came through me with even more insights.
I passed through the center of our galaxy, which is a black hole. Black holes are the great processors or recyclers of the Universe. Do you know what is on the other side of a Black Hole? We are; our galaxy; which has been reprocessed from another Universe. In its total energy configuration, the galaxy looked like a fantastic city of lights. Every sub-atom, atom, star, planet, even consciousness itself is made of light and has a frequency and/or particle. Light is living stuff. Everything is made of light, even stones. So everything is alive. Everything is made from the Light of God; everything is very intelligently formed.
Dan
xxx
Nice post dan
To Floor.
========================
THE SIMPLE OBVIOUS FACT, that you keep constantly avoiding to answer my two simple questions 15 TIMES IN A ROW (!), unambiguously shows that you are either a stubborn ignoramus and/or a paid agent of the official science mafia, who makes some money by trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner. In any case it is more than evident for all honest members of good will of this forum, that you are simply a professional (but clumsy) cheater and an unworthy person! How much do they pay you? Shame on you!
=========================
ANSWER THE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS BELOW!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 16TH TIME!
-------------------------------------------
Consider carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSWER THE ABOVE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 16TH TIME!
Humbug
To Floor.
========================
THE SIMPLE OBVIOUS FACT, that you keep constantly avoiding to answer my two simple questions 16 TIMES IN A ROW (!), unambiguously shows that you are either a stubborn ignoramus and/or a paid agent of the official science mafia, who makes some money by trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner. In any case it is more than evident for all honest members of good will of this forum, that you are simply a professional (but clumsy) cheater and an unworthy person! How much do they pay you? Shame on you!
=========================
ANSWER THE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS BELOW!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 17TH TIME!
-------------------------------------------
Consider carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSWER THE ABOVE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 17TH TIME!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your masters will beat you! You have to run quickly and hide somewhere!
To Floor and to Jerry Volland.
========================
ANSWER THE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS BELOW!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 18TH TIME!
-------------------------------------------
Consider carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSWER THE ABOVE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 18TH TIME!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your masters will beat you! Run quickly and hide somewhere!:)
To Floor and to Jerry Volland.
========================
ANSWER THE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS BELOW!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 19TH TIME!
-------------------------------------------
Consider carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANSWER THE ABOVE TWO SIMPLE QUESTIONS!
LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR TWO ANSWERS FOR THE 19TH TIME!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your masters will beat you! Run quickly and hide somewhere!:)
To Floor, to sm0ky2, to Jerry Volland and to all other wiseacres, who simply reject obvious physical reality.
=========================================================
Why don't you answer my two simple questions? You keep constantly avoiding to answer my two simple questions 19 times in a row. You have to write down two numbers only. Is this simple operation so difficult for you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asking my two simple questions for the 20th time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 20th time.
@George1
Didn't You mean to address that last post, to Floor, to sm0ky2, to Jerry Volland and to every
single other person who has ever responded to your topic ?
Because you have gotten the same response from practically every one,
who has ever posted here.
George1
QUOTE
"To Floor, to sm0ky2, to Jerry Volland and to all other wiseacres, who simply reject obvious physical reality.
=========================================================
Why don't you answer my two simple questions? You keep constantly avoiding to answer my two simple questions 19 times in a row. You have to write down two numbers only. Is this simple operation so difficult for you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asking my two simple questions for the 20th time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 20th time."
END QUOTE
Didn't You mean to address that last post, to Floor, to sm0ky2, to Jerry Volland and to every
single other person who has ever responded to your topic ?
Because you have gotten the same response from practically every one,
who has ever posted here.
To Floor.
==================
My last post was addressed to three wiseacres -- to you personally, to sm0ky2 and to Jerrry Volland. Am I clear now, you old swindler?
To Floor, to sm0ky2 and to Jerry Volland.
=========================================================
Why don't you answer my two simple questions? You keep constantly avoiding to answer my two simple questions 20 times in a row. You have to write down two numbers only. Is this simple operation so difficult for you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Asking my two simple questions for the 21st time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 21st time.
As I said, you have gotten the same response from virtually every one,
who has ever posted in your topics.
Ask you self why. Is it because you are stupid, that you fail to see the simple
obvious reality of this, or is it mental illness instead ?
It's not just three people, it's every one who has looked into your topics.
See for your self.
To Floor.
====================
All honest members of this forum can clearly see that you are simply a paid agent of the official science mafia, who tries to convince all of us here in this forum that black is white! Your clumsy manipulation tricks do not work anymore! Change your manipulation method and show some more creativeness, because otherwise you simply resemble a clown!
------------------------------------
Asking my two simple questions for the 22nd time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 22nd time.
As I said, you have gotten the same response from virtually every one,
who has ever posted in your topics.
Ask you self why. Is it because you are stupid, that you fail to see the simple
obvious reality of this, or is it mental illness instead ?
It's not just three people, it's every one who has looked into your topics.
See for your self.
To Floor.
======================
You obviously have lost your psychic balance! Your masters will beat you, let me remind to you this simple obvious fact! You fail to manipulate successfully the audience!
----------------------------------------
Asking my two simple questions for the 23rd time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 23rd time.
As I said, you have gotten the same response from virtually every one,
who has ever posted in your topics.
Ask you self why. Is it because you are stupid, that you fail to see the simple
obvious reality of this, or is it mental illness instead ?
It's not just three people, it's every one who has looked into your topics.
See for your self.
To Floor.
========================
You already resemble a clown! Your desperate and clumsy efforts to manipulate the audience do not give any results already and you will not be able to stop the technology progress!
--------------------------------------------
Run quickly! Your masters will beat you!
--------------------------------------------
Asking my two simple questions for the 24th time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 24th time.
-------------------------------------------
Run quickly! Your masters will beat you!
@George1
Your topics and comments are the verbal equivalent of feces.
Even feces has its place in this world (fertilizer). Its just that it doesn't belong here.
Your topic started out with claims of a free energy method along with a promise of a third
and undisclosed free energy device, which you asked some number of millions of dollars for.
A scam.
There is nothing new to your ideas.
You promised demonstrations and measurements but never delivered.
You have received many generous and honest observations, comment and suggestions
from numerous knowledgeable / expert people, but always it ends up with you throwing
around absurd accusations and insults, and flaming like some tantrum throwing child.
Ask you self why this is so.
Is it because you are stupid, that you fail to see the simple obvious reality of this,
or is it instead, some mental illness on your part ?
This has not been with just a few people, it's been with every one who has looked into
your topics.
@ All readers
I came into this topic, with an open mind / to honestly consider an idea.
I gave George1 the benefit of the doubt and even defended his idea.
Enough is enough though.
See the first pages of this topic. Its an attempt at a scam.
See the last page of the PDF @
https://overunity.com/18134/a-simple-electric-heater-which-has-efficiency-greater-than-1/msg530795/#msg530795
See for your self.
I for one, would support banning George1, from the forum.
To all honest members of good will of this forum, who are honestly searching for the truth.
=========================================================
Hi guys,
It is as if more than evident that this cheater Floor uses a few manipulation tricks, which are as follows.
1) Constant distortion of the opponent's words.
2) Imitation of pathological ignorance and/or pathological lack of understanding.
3) Using of direct insults and/or mockeries.
4) Talking about things, which have nothing to do with the topic discussed.
5) Some combination of the above four.
-----------------------------------
In one word, it is more than evident that Floor is a professional (but clumsy and unskillful) manipulator, who is a paid agent of the official science mafia. Floor makes some money by trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner.
-----------------------------------
Don't you agree with me?
To Floor.
==========================================
Asking my two simple questions for the 25th time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 25th time.
George1
Have you measured these values ?
To all honest members of good will of this forum, who are honestly searching for the truth.
=========================================================
It is more than evident that this cheater Floor uses a few manipulation tricks, which are as follows.
1) Constant distortion of the opponent's words.
2) Imitation of pathological ignorance and/or pathological lack of understanding.
3) Using of direct insults and/or mockeries.
4) Talking about things, which have nothing to do with the topic discussed.
5) Some combination of the above four.
-----------------------------------
In one word, it is more than evident that Floor is a professional (but clumsy and unskillful) manipulator, who is a paid agent of the official science mafia. Floor makes some money by trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner.
To Floor.
==========================================
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the two simple questions below.
Asking my two simple questions for the 26th time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 26th time.
I don't understand what you mean by electrolyte
To Floor.
==========================================
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the two simple questions below.
Asking my two simple questions for the 27th time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 27th time.
To Floor.
==========================================
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the two simple questions below.
Asking my two simple questions for the 28th time.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 28th time.
==========================================
P.S. Dear Floor! Dear colleague! Don't be afraid of truth! Don't be a coward! Tell your masters to mind their own business and be an honest and courageous person! Be a brave and courageous warrior! :) Like any member of our team!
Asking my two simple questions for the 29th time.
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the two simple questions below.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 29th time.
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Note. The correct two answers of the above two simple questions directly lead to a severe violation of the law of conservation of energy.
Don't be afraid of truth!
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Asking my two simple questions for the 30th time.
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the two simple questions below.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 30th time.
=======================================
Note. The correct two answers of the above two simple questions directly lead to a severe violation of the law of conservation of energy.
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Don't be afraid of truth!
Let us work together and not to confront!
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
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Asking my two simple questions for the 31st time.
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the two simple questions below.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
Looking forward to your two answers for the 31st time.
=======================================
Note. The correct two answers of the above two simple questions directly lead to a severe violation of the law of conservation of energy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us work together and not to confront!
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us popularize the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y in any possible way! Because the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better the life of any human being on Earth!
======================================
1) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes a new electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
2) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes solely and only real experiments.
======================================
Let us popularize the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y in any possible way! Because the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better the life of any human being on Earth!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
======================================
1) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes a new electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
2) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes solely and only real experiments.
======================================
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
Asking our four simple questions for the 32nd time.
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the four simple questions below.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
QUESTION 3: What is the mass of the released hydrogen, that is, how many kilograms of hydrogen does the electrolyte release while electrolysis takes place?
QUESTION 4: What is the value of the heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen, that is, how many Joules of heat is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen?
Looking forward to your four answers for the 32nd time.
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
======================================
1) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes a new electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
2) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes solely and only real experiments.
======================================
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
Asking our four simple questions for the 33rd time.
Having in mind the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y answer the four simple questions below.
QUESTION 1: What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2: What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
QUESTION 3: What is the mass of the released hydrogen, that is, how many kilograms of hydrogen does the electrolyte release while electrolysis takes place?
QUESTION 4: What is the value of the heat, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen, that is, how many Joules of heat is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen?
Looking forward to your four answers for the 33rd time.
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
======================================
1) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes a new electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
2) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes solely and only real experiments.
======================================
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
WHERE IS THE BRAVE PIONEER OU SPIRIT HERE IN THIS FORUM?! >:( :)
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Let us push forward together the technology progress!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
======================================
1) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes a new electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
2) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes solely and only real experiments.
======================================
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
WHERE IS THE PASSION FOR NEW OU TECHNOLOGIES HERE IN THIS FORUM?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
======================================
1) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes a new electric heater, which has efficiency greater than 1.
2) The link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y describes solely and only real experiments.
======================================
Let us popularize in any possible way the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAydFMDKj2Y as it contains an absolutely free new technology information, which is able to make better and easier the life of any human being on Earth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Let us push forward together the technology progress!
I have also reposted some stuff a couple times in the past because I thought it was important.
However if I ever caught myself spam posting something 44 times I would have to take a good hard look in the mirror and seriously question my mental health. Have you given any thought to your actions here?.
I'm not concerned about myself and I don't care if you repost this a million times. I'm just wondering to what end and why your tormenting yourself like this?.
Regards
AC
Such a design, a ring in a ring. There is no connection between the windings.
Good solution for magnetic amplifier ... ;)
nice..
To kolbacict.
=========================
Hi kolbacict,
Hi dear colleague,
Your last post seems to be interesting. Some more details?
Regards,
It was just sleep my,that design , you will not believe it. :)
I thought it would be a overunity,but turn out just no magnetic coupling between windings.
No magnetic coupling between windings, might be useful !
Play with it some more ?
also
Were off topic here.
To kolbacict.
========================
No magnetic coupling? Sounds very interesting. And what is the ratio between primary and secondary winding numbers?
Regards,
Hmm.... An induction heater element could enclose the object being heated
rather than sitting under it