I know this is probably an old worn out topic, But I've only been a member here for a week and familiar with stanley meyers and his claims for 2 weeks.
I've read so much on the internet about creating hydrogen from water ,read all of meyers patents and so on.
I have an electronics background, and for the last 19 years, an electrician. I have a very good fundamental background in all forms of electricity. One thing that puzzles me, If Stan really created a dune buggy that ran realtime 100% hydrogen, Why can no one duplicate his results?
A) it's a big farce
B) the documents and schematics provided to the us patent office are not correct. ie...missleading
My first thought was it's all crap,.,,,,, then again, many claim he was so paranoid of losing a patent that just maybe.....he gave the patent office a phony schematic and explaination of the principle of operation. So as to mislead people who might steal idea, or maybe he thought the Govt would deem his idea a national defense invention and just take it. either way, he gave just enough info to obtain a patent.
the reason I think he provided phoney schematics for his process? I think I know how he did it, and soon, I will atempt to "fracture" water, and create H2 with little or No electrical input. (probably little)
Before you call me nuts, and hopefully without giving it all away for free. The secret is in a resonant circuit. If any of you electronic experts know how a resonant "tank" circuit works, you should be able to figure this out..
And to those of you who think this information should be let out for the good of the world...
Let me make a billion dollars on it first, It won't take long.
So why do I even write what I have? I'm looking for 1 or 2 or more people who have better skills in electronics than me to work together to make this work. I have plenty of money, I'm not gonna scam anyone, and trust me, no one will scam me so forget it.
since you have a lot of electrician experience why not help us with something a bit easier? like the dual mechanical oscillation system by Mr. Mikovic. closing the loop on this one should not be hard!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1763.0.html
Hey Free, LOL this is actually one thats got my attention, and i am working on it.
I am trying to create it on wm2d, and to my surprise, finding the right ratio of pendulem weight length of pedulem, rocker weight etc...it's a tough one( i've only had wm2d for 1 day so am new to that) I do believe at this point, if theres a mechanical closed loop possible, it will be this .....thanks for your endorsement of me. I mean encouragement.
PS gravity wheels wont work,, same amount of energy going down as up reguardless of how you look at it, call it an out of ballance wheel will only keep you chasing your tail.
In the finnal conclusion, that 1 lb weight that comes down one side must go back up the other. reguardless of the path it takes.
And I fear that the energy imposed on the anvil of the pedulem project is not as much as we are guessing from the sound eminated from the "smack" of that anvil. I bet it sounds more
impessive than it is, and the energy there is not enough to perpetuate the swing of the pendulem, I hope i'm wrong.
Oh, and BTW free, despite my lack of posts on here, I've spent a week almost, reading myself blind on here, I've read a lot of threads, I repect your opinions. A lot of people can call me a moron, if it came from you it would hurt. :)
g'day John
And not only that, how many posts do i gotta do till I'm not a newbie?
TY this a is a gratuitist post no reply required.
And one more thing, sorry to babble , Free, the closing the loop on the pedulem thing, it's gonna be a mechanical closed loop, your gonna lose too much going from mech to elec to mech again. g'day
Quote from: Alfang on December 17, 2006, 01:04:23 AM
And one more thing, sorry to babble , Free, the closing the loop on the pedulem thing, it's gonna be a mechanical closed loop, your gonna lose too much going from mech to elec to mech again. g'day
that's fine. we gotta try it first, and if anything we can go from mech to mech instead of mech to elec to mech. ;)
peace
also you bring up a good point on losing energy etc. for now i think the best way then is to close the loop from mech to mech like you said :) good job!
peace
Everyone take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqfiAXIs3Xc&NR
For me this is the way to go :D, I have already started on a new cell design that should do very well as a dielectric destroyer 8). Just having slight proplems with sizing it up right :-\. Need to take more measurements of the cars avaliable space for it. But I belive in fuel replacement systems not fuel mileage boosters ;). For in about 2025 we just might run out of oil, and then what ??? I just wish they never had Killed Mr. Myers, for even if he had been left alone it still would have taken time to change all of the systems over to his technology :'(. Now it seems time is running out, global warming they say will take it's course even if we do an all out stop of burning fossile fuels.
But as for me I am exited in getting my new EDS HCP cell built and the electronics to go with it. I hope it works ::) God Bless everyone with lots of luck on getting this stuff to work. Just me h20power..........
Quote from: h20power on March 10, 2007, 01:58:29 AM
Everyone take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqfiAXIs3Xc&NR
I was not too exited about this video when I saw it in full. Peter Lindman came across as expressing to know the secret behind every OU device. Now I wonder if his own car runs on hydrogen.
AM
Quote from: Alfang on December 17, 2006, 12:58:02 AM
And not only that, how many posts do i gotta do till I'm not a newbie?
TY this a is a gratuitist post no reply required.
The way you're postin it won't be long!!! ;D
Hi All,
Getting the electronics together is proving to be a real challange. Guess I have to make the varialbe charging choke, for I could find nothing online, and radio shack doesn't seem to carry anything anymore. Well the case cost me over 300 bucks, but it should hold up to the vacuums a car can produce, for my first cell imploded on me. I am going to try 1000 whinds with the 36 gage wire, since I found a diode that can handle the voltage, but I have to find the 36 gage wire first, lol. And I am still waiting on the cost of the stainless steel. Anyone know who sells a BUZ350 MOSEFT? All I find online is pdf's of the buz350. Someone once told me that the Myer's family will sue me if I started selling this kind of technology, but the patent runs out 6/27/07 and they killed Myer's just before he could come out with his newest design. I think the family will be glade to see that their kin's technology is going to change the world just as Myers had dreamed. I can't figure out the spark plug device that he had, so that will be up too someone else to figure out. Just me h20power doing what he can in his own small way. Keeping this topic alive is what Myers would have wanted.
Well, I got all of the stuff to make the electronics. I am going to wait until the WFC is built to finish the Voltage intensifire circut, going to try and match it with the WFC, for it seems the secondary whinding needs to be matched with the voltage needs of the WFC(water fuel capacitor). Anyone have any imput on this line of thinking?
Xogen's advertisment video,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl5Ej3lfBig&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Etecheblog%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%2Ftech%2Dgadget%2Fxogen%2Dtap%2Dwater%2Das%2Dfuel
Two of their patents I was able to find
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6126794&id=7LIFAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,126,794
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT6419815&id=qZQKAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,419,815
This is just about all you need to know on getting Mr. Meyer's technology to work, just note that you will need a VIC circut and too match the diodes used to the 555's and mosfet's switching speeds.
Well I was just looking for the MeyerRep.pdf file online and it seems the MIB guys have pulled it from just about everywhere, for it can't be found. See they are not messing with Magdrive for all he has is mileage boosters, but they are going through great lengths too stamp out Mr. Meyer's ideas. I am still shocked that I can find it online, not even on PESWiki.
So everyone best get this while they can for it can nolonger be found on the open net.
Quote from: AhuraMazda on March 10, 2007, 10:51:58 AM
Quote from: h20power on March 10, 2007, 01:58:29 AM
Everyone take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqfiAXIs3Xc&NR
I was not too exited about this video when I saw it in full. Peter Lindman came across as expressing to know the secret behind every OU device. Now I wonder if his own car runs on hydrogen.
AM
Maybe have a look at Peter Lindemann in his younger days:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6461713170757457294&q=tesla+longitudinal+wave
Tripled
He hasn't changed much in all these years.
Quote from: h20power on March 14, 2007, 11:15:46 AM
Hi All,
Getting the electronics together is proving to be a real challange. Guess I have to make the varialbe charging choke, for I could find nothing online, and radio shack doesn't seem to carry anything anymore. Well the case cost me over 300 bucks, but it should hold up to the vacuums a car can produce, for my first cell imploded on me. I am going to try 1000 whinds with the 36 gage wire, since I found a diode that can handle the voltage, but I have to find the 36 gage wire first, lol. And I am still waiting on the cost of the stainless steel. Anyone know who sells a BUZ350 MOSEFT? All I find online is pdf's of the buz350. Someone once told me that the Myer's family will sue me if I started selling this kind of technology, but the patent runs out 6/27/07 and they killed Myer's just before he could come out with his newest design. I think the family will be glade to see that their kin's technology is going to change the world just as Myers had dreamed. I can't figure out the spark plug device that he had, so that will be up too someone else to figure out. Just me h20power doing what he can in his own small way. Keeping this topic alive is what Myers would have wanted.
Why not just sell it underground and freely publish all schematics? That's what I would do. The more people that can do it the better. We all make money off it in the end if you think about it.
I am in the same thinking as you, but I still have some R&D too do. Take a look at what's in the wind: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KJPE6d2R9uo
This is from this drawing
Cool.
How about hooking up a flow meter for the gas at steady state so we can do an efficiency calculation?
(Mass flow)(energy density) / (voltage)(amperage)
I am still looking for the right frequecy, and have a very low buget for the project so bare with me, okay ???
The way to find the freq. is to adjust very slowly while monitoring current draw. We found that the freq range is very narrow. It also varies on the cell design and even water level.
There is a patent that describes a method of locking on to the freq. and have the electronics chase the proper freq. I will post the patent another time when I have it on hand if you don't know about this.
Quote from: turbosetch on May 12, 2007, 03:47:22 AM
The way to find the freq. is to adjust very slowly while monitoring current draw. We found that the freq range is very narrow. It also varies on the cell design and even water level.
There is a patent that describes a method of locking on to the freq. and have the electronics chase the proper freq. I will post the patent another time when I have it on hand if you don't know about this.
yeh you could use a phase locked loop with current sensing like they use on auto ham radio antenna matching tuners.
Quote from: h20power on March 14, 2007, 11:15:46 AM
Hi All,
Anyone know who sells a BUZ350 MOSEFT? All I find online is pdfs of the buz350.
I am pretty sure that this is it.
MOSEFT means "mosfet" (with a spelling mistake). Viz:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET
Paul.
In Dave Lawton's replication paper (link listed here somewhere, I've seen it), he has a parts listing so y'all can build yer very own pulse driver. That parts listing calls for the BUZ 350 MOSFET, but the comments say "or any 200 V 20 n-channel mosfet" I went to mouser.com and picked out one from the plethora listed there, actually got several cuz I burn 'em up.
Anyhow cost was about $8 USD a piece. This rocket science is getting expensive.
Keith
Hi all. This is my first post to this forum, but I've been following it for quite some time. My interests are mainly the Meyers Cell and the Bedini motor.
What it all comes down to is; if ya wanna play, ya gotta pay. I struggle with it too. I was very fortunate to have received a gift box of 316L stainless steel recently, as it is very expensive in these parts of the USA. I hope these forums will help me put it to good use.
Also just bought a crapload of neo mags, various configurations, just to smash my fingers with while thinking of water fuel cells. Amazing magnets! So impressed in fact, I've been gutting the dozens of failed hards drives I've been collecting for many years, quite a yield!
Y'all can get really good neos here
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=11
As for stainless, go to the supplier and ask for drops, what's leftover after the cut orders. I snarfed up on 20 ga 316L sheet for 20% of retail.
The deals are there if you wanna do the legwork.
Keith
Thanks for the advice. I'll try that whenever I decide to build a JoesCell (maybe, maybe not....still not sure I can figure the science behind them....I like measuring output, and I cannot yet decide how to approach measuring a Joescell). Presently, I believe I will have all the SS I need for a Meyers Cell.
I like what I'm reading from Ironman. I wonder how a SM type cell can be modified to "split the positive" Any ideas?
Well, I have entered the testing phase now. Sorry I don't come to the site very often, but I so busy these days. This is just a look at what I have been up too: http://youtube.com/watch?v=KJPE6d2R9uo
Thanks for sharing your test results. Do you have any info on gas production like volume per second? Do you think you can it down under 1 amp input like Meyers claimed?
I don't know, I feel like we're digging too much into the 'resonant' thing. I feel this is not the key. I think that the frequency of the high voltage pulse in WFC is important in the sense that the WFC must be able to accumulate charge (see the step voltage charging in SM patent) without introducing much current into it.
If you read SM patent WO9207861A1, you'll found out that different WFC configuration requires different "resonant" frequency. well, this didn't ring any bell in my head, cause I feel that the resonant frequency of water should be fixed regardless of WFC configuration. Ofcourse there are different kinds of water (impurities bla bla bla) that might justify the frequency difference but we are specifically targeting the H2O, not the impurities. Meaning the resonant frequency of H2O should remain the same, regardless of any impurities presence. We are not trying to resonate the impurities, just the H2O.
I think is the the high electric field (high voltage) that decomposes the water, not the frequency. The frequency is needed only as a way to "charge" the WFC without consuming much current. The water in WFC will decompose only when the WFC charge reaches high voltage (reaches water dielectric breakdown voltage). This way Stanley is able to get hydrogen from much less current.
In fact we don't need any kind of frequency AT ALL to decompose water (or to break down a dielectric in general), we just need a dc electric field (dc voltage), that all, PERIOD. We don't need high current, frequency etc.
If we treat water as a dielectric and we want to break down the water 'dielectric' to get hydrogen (& oxygen), actually what we need is just to expose the dielectric with a dc electric field (dc voltage) higher than its withstanding voltage strength (dielectric strength).
We know the dielectric strength of water, so we pretty much know the voltage (electric field) required to break down water in a specific distance. Now the challenge is to prevent current flow in the water. One way is like what Stan Meyer did, using high voltage pulses.
There is another way, that is to cover the electrode with material that can block the current flow, but do not block the electric field. (material with high dielectric constant & dielectric strength, like certain type of ceramic) Once you can do this, you can just use dc high voltage, no need frequency or any complicated electronics.
Look at patent US4427512 :
"WATER DECOMPOSITION METHOD AND DEVICE USING IONIZATION BY COLLISION" invented by Tay-Hee Hau, Korea, Jan 24, 1984
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/UpdatePage.html
This way you ABSOLUTELY minimize the current flow, yet still getting that hydrogen gas.
Now the problem is where can I buy the ceramic with the correct property ??? My background is electronics, not much on material things.
Would then it be reasonable to suggest that, since water is the electrolyte in the cell, which is a capacitor, then when once the charge-carrying capacity of the electrolyte is exceeded, the electrolye begins to break down? Thus, the effect is not resonance per se, but capacitor failure. However, resonance between the inductors and the capacitor itself allows the high voltage, which in turn pushes the electrolyte beyond the physical limits of charge acceptance, and breaks it down, just like overdriving any other electrolytic capacitor.
From what I've read this seems to best describe what's really goin' on it there.
I had a 16v 5000uF cap blow up on me just last week. Blew its guts all over the bench.
just my .02
Keith
@kentoot
"In fact we don't need any kind of frequency AT ALL to decompose water (or to break down a dielectric in general), we just need a dc electric field (dc voltage), that all, PERIOD. We don't need high current, frequency etc."
Okay, then what's to keep that voltage from arcing between the electrodes when y'all get it crankin' high enough to split water?
I think that's where the pulses come in; don't let it build enough charge (=amps) to jump the gap.
And with resonance there's a voltage spike in the tank circuit- out of phase, but the peak is still there, with less input emf.
I thought that's what Meyer's was after, but I ain't made it happen yet, so mebbe I'm don't get it after all.
Keith
Yes Keith, I agree with you, Stan's WFC is indeed relying on capacitor 'failure' (because of overvoltage) to produce gas, just like that capacitor of yours that blew up. They were both given voltages above the dielectric strength of the electrolyte, so the electrolyte decomposes and gas is produced.
By the way, I thought usually those big caps have some sort of venting hole to prevent excessive pressure build up?
I also agree with you that the inductor-capacitor resonance may help with charging the WFC, but do they really resonate ?? I just don't know. I mean I worked before with step-up regulator, switching power supply designs that can produce high voltages, but to my knowledge they don't require the inductor and capacitor to resonate together to produce such high voltages. Maybe it's a different story in WFC case, I dont know ...
But even if there is such resonance, I still think high voltage is the one that ultimately splits the water. That's why on Stanley WFC, the water get decomposed only when the WFC reaches certain high voltage (after several pulses), it will not decompose water on every HV pulse. if one was to assume that the resonance is responsible for splitting the water then every HV pulse should decompose the water, because the resonant frequency already kicked in.
"Okay, then what's to keep that voltage from arcing between the electrodes when y'all get it crankin' high enough to split water?"
well Keith, that's why on Tay-Hee Hau's patent the electrodes are not in contact with the water. The electrode is placed outside the water container. The water container itself is a very good isolator, so it will prevent any arc / current flow between the electrodes. But the container also need other characteristic to work, such as high dielectric constant and high dielectric strength. So it isolates the electrode, but because of the high dielectric constant, the electric field can still pass through the container to the water to decompose it. The high dielectric strength of the container (a lot higher than water) is just to make sure that the water breaks down first before the container. The dc high voltage value applied on the electrodes must be between the dielectric strength of the water and the container.
I think ceramic (not all kinds) pretty much qualify as the container.
Guys,
Well if it is a dielectric failure of the WFC, then the resonance is the sought after quantity.
Think about it, if the size of the WFC changes so does the capacitance right? So you include the inductors on either end of the WFC to create the ping pong effect of voltage and current between the coils and the WFC, the high voltages created due to the resonance effect will then cause the failure you are looking for, simple.
Now if you can match the resonance of the WFC and inductors to the NMR of the water then you should get a flash conversion, no?
The only issue here is when you convert the water to its basic components then the WFC capacitance changes hence the resonant freq changes.
Hi all,
Below you can see the WFC that we have produced. It is working fairly well.
A few confirmations, a conditioning must take place. When you first turn the cell on after making it, nothing happens. Slow it starts to work and after a couple of weeks of test runs, you can turn it on and lots of gas comes basically straight away.
We are running on 12v at 3amps at the moment.
SOME OBSERVATIONS:
Once the conditioning has taken place we can place the power supply, straight DC across the cell, no pulsing circuit, the same gas flow is produced.
It appears to be frequency independent. The frequency seems to make no different at this point.
I can only assume for now that we are not in the "meyer" window, no resonance or anything.
Regards,
Dave.
Well, I don't know Carl, there too many theories / explanations floating around about the WFC. You might have a point there, I mean nobody knows for sure, right ? I'm just trying to see things from a different angle.
From my experience, when I see a transformer (& inductors), diode and capacitor (WFC) in that configuration, I see a voltage step-up circuitry. That's why Stan was able to produce high voltage pulses from a lower (but wider) voltage pulses. And when the input pulse is off, there's another pulse coming out because of the back emf (of the transformer & inductor). So in my opinion this high voltage pulses do not require any new electronic theory, this is just from the existing theory of transformer, inductor & step-up circuitry.
So after Stan got the high voltage pulses going, how did he manage to charge the WFC ? I think this needs experimenting. Like what is the frequency of the HV pulse for a particular WFC ? Also what is the required amplitude of the pulse, what is the rest time between train of pulses and so on. For this I believe we need to get down 'dirty' and try to build a WFC for ourselves, there's no other way. Once we can see the WFC charging (voltage buildup between the electrodes) I think we have ourselves a Stan WFC replication.
I think it's very critical that when we experiment we know what to observe. Bubbles coming out from the electrodes is not important, as it could be just normal electrolysis. But one thing specific to Stan's WFC is the voltage build-up across the electrodes. We have to observe the electrode's voltage, I think this is quite critical. If we see the electrode's voltage rising upon each incoming pulse (step charging the WFC) then I think we might just hit the jackpot.
Also I think Stan's schematics is completely sound & valid, electronically speaking. It should do the job very well, we should just follow Stan's circuitry. In my opinion modifying it will just create more frustration & waste more time.
Dave,
I've got to say that's one great work of art you have there. simply amazing !!
@Dave,
That is a nice lookin' unit. I have been playing with water filter cases for mine, nothing to report of interest.
So you have built the VIC from the Stan Meyers doc's ? and experienced no difference in the cell gas output versus straight DC? Or have you just tried using a function gen and a FET setup instead for the moment?
@kentoot,
Same here on the different angles. My comment on the resonance is based on the theory of LCR circuits. I do agree that Stan's VIC uses a step up transformer circuit but the VIC does look like a series resonant circuit does it not?
From my understanding, the choke coils are tuned to resonance only to help deflect electrons away from the cell. the deflected electrons are then used in a load such as a light bulb. whats left in the cell is very little current and very high voltage potential. The liberated electrons from the splitting of the water are used as kind of like replacements for the ones that were deflected to complete the circuit. So, it's neither resonance nor a certain frequency that directly affects the splitting of the water, it's the very high voltage potential. The higher the voltage, the more attracted the the polarized particles of the water molecule become. When a state of resonance is reached (capacitive and inductive reactances equal), the two impedances cancel each other out and the total impedance drops to zero! Extremely high voltages can be formed across the individual components of series LC circuits at resonance, due to high current flows and substantial individual component impedances. The total impedance of a parallel LC circuit approaches infinity as the power supply frequency approaches resonance.
The gated pulses or duty cycles, I believe, were not stepped up in any way. Think of it as bending a wire back and forth till it breaks. several pulses and snap! Major gas release. repeat. I could maybe see the falling impedance making it seem as if the voltage or current were rising?
@Carl
Well yes, I agree, Stan does put the inductor & capacitor (WFC) in series. And does look like they can resonate given the right frequency. But lets not forget the diode ! If this LC circuit purpose is to resonate, then I would say the presence of a diode there is just about the worst thing you can have. If you want to 'stretch and contract' the water molecule using the resonant frequency, why do you need a diode for ? A LC resonant circuit should not have a diode. The diode will just reduce the 'stretch and contract' motion of the water molecule.
@HeairBear
Well, what I know about LC resonance is that the reactive part of the impedance is nullified (= zero), but the resistive part is still there, so total impedance is not zero. Although you can say that at resonance there exist only the resistive part of the impedance, or impedance = resistance. In real life you can see resonance when there is no phase shift between the voltage & current waveforms. And most likely at resonance you will not be able to reduce the current consumption.
Your explanation of bending a wire back and forth, does it mean you want to split water by stretching & contracting the water molecule until it breaks ? Is this the role of 'resonant' frequency in Stan's WFC ? If you look closely at Stan's patent, you'll see this is not the case. In fact Stanley just continuously stretch the water molecule bit by bit until it breaks, there is absolutely no oscillation taken place. So only stretching, never contract, only one way, hence the diode in the circuit.
So in my opinion the pulse frequency is not meant to oscillate the water molecule up and down, but it is for charging the WFC bit by bit, stretching the water molecule bit by bit, until such time where the voltage on the WFC exceeded the dielectric strength of the water and finally the water molecules break into hydrogen and oxygen !
If we were to apply directly a dc high voltage to a WFC, definitely we will consume a lot of current (unless ofcourse we use pure deionized water). That's why Stanley used HV pulses to charge his WFC bit by bit, reducing significantly the current consumption.
Some stuff here you might want to take notice of, apparently there is something missing with the published Lawton documents (Stanley Meyers demo cell replication).....
It seems like there are high voltage pulses missing from nearly all Meyer replications....
Read it for yourself:
http://my.opera.com/H2earth/blog/show.dml/779891
Technological Development
Over the past week, two inquisitive electrical engineers working with the H2earth Institute have apparently debugged the Meyer Replication document that has circulated on the Internet in PDF since it was compiled for the Practical Guide to Free Energy Devices from the work of U.K. Research Engineer Dave Lawton, in June of 2006.
While several investigators have attempted to replicate the Water Fuel Cell, Mr. Lawton appears to have most reliably succeeded. From the schematics compiled on his behalf for posting, it was anticipated that numerous other validations would soon follow. However, several experimenters have faithfully reproduced the published circuit, delivering the stipulated frequency, voltage, and waveform, to no effect.
We know why. The proper Frequency, Voltage, and Waveform are necessary, yet insufficient preconditions for the Meyer effect to occur. Modern electronic components are deceptively capable; people assume a MOSFET will perform all of the functions of larger, older classes of discrete components. Not so. The Resonant Charging Chokes in Meyer's schematics were not there for decoration. His resonant phenomena are more complex than simply shaking the water apart. There is electrical resonance in the circuit, there is electrical resonance in the water, and there is acoustic resonance in cell itself. There are likely standing wave amplification effects. Any harmonic and phase relationships between these electromagnetic and mechanical oscillations will be multivariant, and take years to fully characterize; fortunately, the WFC can be made to work before the science catches up to the engineering.
The first Lawton replication of the WFC utilized a modified alternator; it introduced the desired effects, and yielded gas production 3x Faradic levels, for the 56 watts of power provided to the cell. Based on this, a solid state schematic was designed, represented in CAD, and published, which would ostensibly offer the same performance as the clunky electromechanical alternator version. But, not so fast! A copper wound, ferrite rod Inductor, incorporated into Mr. Lawton's subsequently constructed solid state circuit (but not into the already published plans), made all the difference. The second Lawton replication, using the solid state circuit, again gave remarkable results.
Working directely with Dave Lawton and a brilliant engineering student in Central Florida who had constructed a beautiful replication of the WFC, the Institute's engineers were able to discover why the UK cell performed, while the [apparently identical] Florida cell yielded only the expected Faradic equivalent gas as it operated, while all of the signal parameters seemed the same. The resonance effects of the Inductor are subtle, yet profound. A "sidewards jitter", thought to be a scope artifact, turned out to indicate the presence of very brief (possibly <75ns), very sharp (possibly >35Kv) high voltage spikes, which Mr. Lawton's venerable analog instrumentation apparently missed due to the lower sampling rate of his occiloscope.
As this is being written, the UK cell is being outfitted with new precision gas flow instrumentation for a new series of test runs, and the Florida cell (already so equipped) is being given its missing Inductor. Within days, they will be operated in tandem, and, it is hoped, their levels of performance synchronized and thoroughly documented. Yet to be examined is the fact that while Meyer's patent contained just the one Resonant Charging Choke, his later Technical Brief showed two of them, one on either side of the cell in the circuit.
Robert
Excellent! I can't wait for the updated documentation.
@Robert
Excellent work, I also feel that the high voltage pulses is quite important in charging the WFC. I think the central issue of the WFC is to be able to accumulate charge and raise the WFC voltage.
From what I've seen in Stan's patent (WO9207861), the 2 inductors on either side of the WFC is actually part of the step-up transformer, they are not standalone inductors. This is because they are also wound on the toroid core of the transformer, they receive the flux from the primary winding, and so they become part of the secondary windings of the transformer.
Please also note that the 2nd inductor on the bottom of the WFC is meant to have variable winding. By looking at how this inductor is wound & connected with the transformer and the WFC, I would say that this inductor is actually working AGAINST the transformer & the top inductor. I would guess this serves as HV pulse damper, so Stan can adjust & tune the HV pulse amplitude. Maybe it's related to the WFC's geometry and conductivity of the water. If the HV pulse amplitude is too high maybe it will cause a spark / current flow across the WFC electrode. So my guess is that the variable inductor on the bottom side is meant for HV amplitude tuning.
heres a cut and paste from the "Meyer's Tech Brief" with all the illustration numbers edited out for easier reading.
Tri - Coil Construction
Resonant Choke Coils are composed of 430F or 430FR inductance stainless steel film coated (hi dielectric value) wire (typically .004 Ga. Or smaller) which are axially (spiralled) Bifilar wound about core bobbin, forming individual spiral-wrap (inner to outer circumference and being equally-length) coils electrically connected in sequencial order to form resistive pickup coil. Primary Coil (typically .030 Ga.) film coated magnet wire is longitudinal wrapped in space relationship on top of and layered bidirectional across spiral-wrap coils to complete bobbin cavity. Secondary pickup coil is, also, composed of individual spiral wrapped coils (typically .002 Ga. magnet wire) electrically connected in sequential order to form bobbin cavity which is placed on top of and in space relationship to primary coil cavity. Resonant bobbin assembly, primary bobbin assembly, and secondary bobbin
assembly, now, make up and structurally forms voltage intensifier (VIC) coil-assembly when electrical steel core material forms a close-loop magnetic induction pathway centrally through and around (VIC) coil-assembly.
Electromagnetic Interaction
The resultant tri-coil configuration (Inductance core - choke coils - primary coil - secondary coil), now, allows magnetic field coupling to pass through both resonant-coils and secondary coil simultaneously when primary coil is pulsed energized by way of incoming pulse-train. In doing so, magnetic flux-lines are induced into spiral-wrap coils to produce inductance coupling between each secondary spiral-coils which are parallel formed to expanding magnetic flux-lines producing step up voltage potential of positive
RE: Water Fuel Injection System Memo WFC 425
Stanley A. Meyer 6-4
electrical intensity (positive voltage potential) by way of inductance / capacitance interaction across
secondary coil-assembly while keeping opposition to electromagnetic build up to a minimum.Magnetic flux-lines being emitted on the opposite side of primary coil induces further increase in positive voltage potential since inductance / capacitance (Cd / DL) interaction is, also, occurring in both resonant charging chokes simultaneously in balance relationship to the same pulse sequent producing inductance coupling in parallel relationship to expanding field, as before. The resultant Pulsing Sequence allows voltage across Inductance Chokes while current flow lags by 90?. Together, external magnetic field, inductance coupling field, resistive value of stainless steel wire-coil, and the dielectric value (ohmic or resistive value) of water aids and performs amp restriction process while allowing applied voltage amplitude to be electrically transmitted without signal degradation. The resultant dynamic voltage potential, now, performs the Hydrogen Fracturing Process in such a way as to allow particle oscillation to take place as a ''Energy Generator" to further enhance thermal explosive energy-yield.
I don't have much experience with electronics, but I would like to build this device. How do I go about building a variable charging choke?
I get the part about the ferrite rod, but do I wrap the wire with one coil and then wrap over that with a separate coil?
In this example:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.waterforfuel.com%2Fimages%2F42216-38608%2Ftrue_vic_200.jpg&hash=029f3851b20910d41f06fd24988af54bf3304457)
After wrapping the primary coil, do I then wrap the first of 3 choke coils over that? Or should I make a toroid and have them all spaced out?
Thanks for you help.
Chuck
Anyone who is entrusted and serious about replicating or helping us replicate the water fuel cell please go to "http://www.waterfuelcell.org/Resources.html" and join the forum! Also it mite help to look at my other post WATER FUEL CELL: HIGH VOLTAGE: WHOLE PROCESS it shows everything I?ve learnt so far. How to build all the chokes transformers and capacitors and stuff!
All help is wanted!
Thanks,
Pulsed,
@chuck
Yes, it isn't so easy to build a variable inductor / transformer. But if the variable winding is indeed for HV pulse amplitude tuning, then I believe there is another solution. I believe you don't even need the variable winding if the input square wave duty cycle is adjustable, in Stanley's case it's fixed to 50%.
So I suppose you can try NOT putting the variable winding at all, just make the step-up transformer and the top fixed winding. The bottom variable winding is gone, so the on that side the WFC is connected directly to the transformer. Then you can adjust the HV pulse amplitude by varying the voltage and duty cycle of the input (primary) square wave.
On the winding location I think it doesn't matter all that much where you put the secondary windings on the toroid core. You can put it on top of the primary winding or put it on another area of the toroid.
On adjusting the duty cycle of the input wave, try not to saturate the transformer because it will cause excessive wasteful current consumption. So on adjusting the duty cycle, try with small ON values first (maybe 10% ON, 90% OFF) and increase the ON period bit by bit until your pulse can actually cause a voltage build-up on the WFC.
Also I believe in order to achieve the voltage build-up on the WFC, the WFC mechanical construction must follow closely Stan's configuration. If you decide to alter the electrode configuration or distance, then the transformer winding may also need to be changed. This is because a (pulse) transformer can only deliver so much energy before it saturates. If you increase the gap or area of the WFC electrodes, the transformer will have to be wounded some more turns so it will be able to store & deliver more power to the WFC. I believe the electronics and the WFC mechanical configuration is very much inter-related. we just can't design the WFC separately and expect the same electronics to work for all sort of WFC.
Quote from: kentoot on June 28, 2007, 12:01:01 PM
@chuck
On adjusting the duty cycle of the input wave, try not to saturate the transformer because it will cause excessive wasteful current consumption. So on adjusting the duty cycle, try with small ON values first (maybe 10% ON, 90% OFF) and increase the ON period bit by bit until your pulse can actually cause a voltage build-up on the WFC.
Kentoot
Thank you for the advice. When you say "adjusting the duty cycle, try with small ON values first", do you mean the duty cycle of each individual pulse must be 10% (instead of 50% as per Meyers patent) or are you referring to the gate duty cycle, i.e. to switch a train of pulses on for 10% of the time and off for 90% of the time?
I would think the latter, with no pulses at all for 90% of the duty cycle. I'm working with that chapps controller, but my scope cain't figger out the two different sets of pulses.
Or mebbe it's me...
Back to the pond,
Turtle
It's the duty cycle of individual pulse. The reason that 50% may not be valid is because we might not have the same exact electronics and WFC setup as Stan did. It might be fine for him, but it's a different story for us, since we change this and that to our own taste.
For example, if we use different kind of toroid core & different no. of turns, that means the saturation point will also be different. That's why we should try with a small ON duty cycle first, and slowly raise the ON period bit by bit until we can see a gradual voltage build-up on the WFC electrode.
What if we don't see that voltage build-up even at 99% ON duty cycle? well, please don't forget to put the diode in series with the transformer (this is an absolute must for charge build-up), if that's in place then my guess would be that the transformer doesn't have enough power to deliver the necessary HV pulse 'punch' to the WFC or there's something wrong with the WFC.
Maybe the WFC 'leaking' too much charge, in that case try to isolate the water between the electrodes as much as possible. If the charge in the water can 'move' to a lower potential point, then we have ourselves a leakage. The charge (and the water) should remain between the electrodes.
If the transformer is not good enough, maybe we should increase the turns (while the ratio remains intact), or increase the ratio, or maybe switch to a toroid with a bigger core dimension to allow more energy storage in the transformer. Who knows, it might just work. Or you could try to put the WFC electrodes slightly closer together. Well, anyway, this is all easy for me to say :), it's a lot tougher when you actually do it.
For the gated pulse train, I believe it's for the water to 'rest' or 'recover' (whatever that means) once the pulses successfully dissociate the water. So the pulses should stop once the water dissociate, let the water 'rest' (i'm not comfortable with this term :)) for a while before the voltage build-up process starts again with a new pulse train. So again the number of pulses needed for water dissociation maybe different from 1 configuration to another, I believe it's not a fixed no. of pulses. But let's not concentrate on this, concentrate first on getting the charge build-up successfully, first things first.
What you guys think of this one ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y__YCvFF8iM#
That video is not really worth commenting on.
I would not be surprised it if was put there by some paid oil company schmuck.
The logic behind the deduction that it is a scam based on the fact that there was a generator located in both the lab and the car is flawed.
This is an experimental system right?
Did they expect to see a finished product?
Give me a break!
FB
yeah i rated this crappy video 0, that deserve only that
disinformation video, obviously his system don't work on 110 volt anyway, it's using ac...
Yeah , but wich milliamps was Meyers measuring...
I think he pulsed the alternator and so got his ramped-pulses , maybe with
faseshifts.
But was he measuring between the puls-unit and the alternator, or
was he measuring whole system powerusage ???
(as he used mains power in this setup..)
I'm not saying it was a scam b.t.w. , just curious ;-)
Well, when I see a video with not much info in it except lots of bright red flashing displays ...hmm... most likely we don't have to take it seriously. It's just a joke, but not funny.
All along I knew Stan was not really a theoritical guy, his approach shows this. He was happy enough to get his system in a closed loop, supplying energy to a car, and move on to other things to improve his system. Posititvely thinking, if he was a theoritical guy, most likely he couldn't have went ahead and invent something like this. I feel that's why he didn't really touch much on the theoritical side, he didn't have the urge to do any extensive research in this aspect, he was pretty much a practical kind of guy. I believe he did get it to work, it's just that we can't get much detail measurements from his unit.
Knowing this fact that he was pretty much a pratical guy, I think we shouldn't take his theoritical explanations (in his notes / patent) so literally. Stan just tried his best to explain the things that happened in his cell, but that doesn't necessarily mean it actually happened that way. I believe he didn't put on purpose some disinformation to confuse / distract us, it's just his way of explaining things. So we should know how to read his patents, and extract the useful informations.
I believe if we want to replicate Stan's work, just do exactly that, REPLICATE, nothing else. Try to design something as close as possible to Stan's configuration. That way even if Stan's theory is a bit off, we can still get the system to work first. Our design should be based on his findings, not purely on his theories. If we venture off doing other things with Stan's theoritical explanation backing us up, well ... I think it's a long shot, but it IS possible ... who knows.
Regarding the milliamp readings, I really think we should just try it ourselves. This kind of detail measurements and other know how, I believe that's our task to find out. So that in the future it's easier to make Stan's system with different configurations.
Hi Kentoot ,
i think the alternator is a very important part of the Meyers setup
and maybe the effect is not reached without it...
Bob Boyce had succes with his cell's also due to an alternator issue;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2637.0.html
His posts have vallueable information , also on cell preperation etc.
on http://www.oupower.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=1
you can find more nice info , also from Bob Boyce
Thanks for the info Popeye, I'll look into it. It's a lot to digest :).
Yes, I agree that the alternator is very important. It's important because the alternator is able to deliver the necessary pulse to the cell. In fact, alternator, in many ways, is similar to a transformer. Why ? Because an alternator has wire coils (basically inductors) that generates the output voltage, just like a transformer secondary winding. In order to generate the output voltage, that coil receives a changing magnetic field. In an alternator, that changing field is from the rotating magnet on the rotor, while in a transformer, it's the primary coil.
Most alternator have more than 1 phase, this is to minimize the ripple when converting to DC (using bridge diodes, got modified in Bob Boyce's case ??). Also the rotor field is usually adjustable, to regulate the output voltage. Nevertheless, the concept of an alternator and a transformer is the same. I guess you could say that a transformer is some sort of solid state version of an alternator.
From what I've read, the alternaotor can be replaced by electronics, specifically hi-rate switching MOSFET transistors. Apparently these weren't as developed whenever Stan was doing his early work. One patent dated 1983 shows an elaborate mechanical device capable of producing the desired D C pulses needed to make his water fuel cell work.
Turtle
Yes, I agree, most likely the alternator role can be replaced with a switching device, such as MOSFET, and a transformer. I'll try my luck with the transformer & MOSFET.
Hi Everyone, this is too let everyone know I am still alive ;D
Newman's technology and tesla's works really help on understanding just what is going on.
This is a video too let you know just who is in charge of the planet: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&q=zeitgeist&total=662&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
This is a video of the work I am aiming at right now with Meyer's technology:
http://www.dispatch.com/dispatch/content/local_news/stories/extras/0707/hydro.html
I am short on funds as always so progress is slow, but I am makeing good head way in my understanding of it all 8). On that "Scam" video it is nothing more than an attemp to brain wash you with flashing images of the word, if one reads the court files on Stanley's court drama it is very clear that he was railroaded. They even put salt in it to make sure it wouldn't work, and refuse to let stanley speak. It was a joke of a case, and the Judge should be stripped of his title.
As for the coils all of them are bifilar wond, but once you read the Newman pdf. file you might, just like me, see the light, and know the "why", for without the "why" you are lost, just trying to copy, when it demands that you understand it.
I hope all of us trying the best of luck, and God speed to our sucess
"and know the "why", for without the "why" you are lost, just trying to copy, when it demands that you understand it."
IronHead surely knows that of which he speaks
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2057.890
At least we're all gettin' on the same page, or mebbe the same chapter of this here book...
Turtle
All,
I?ve been having great success with the transformer diode and bifilar chokes. I?m creating the same amount of gas and more with 0.1 amps, at 240 volts, that I would with my original power supply of 12 volts and 8 amps. This is still the same wattage used roughly, but I?m using high voltage low currant.
You are all doing great here, we are doing what we can back at the WFC forum, keep up the great work.
Pulsed,
With an alternator ,when you pulse the rotor coil you end up with
a pulsing sinewave . The negative part is blocked by the diode (meyers).
Kind of ramped pulse signal...(?!)
The signal/pause depending on alternator-RPM
With only a transformer and a puls generator you don't get the ramped signal.
You can even use an alternator (when not rotating) as an transformer with
adjustable coupling (?) (Coupling depending on rotor angle)
bla,bla ;-))
The ramped signal is one I overlooked. Rummaging around I found a couple good alternators I can tear into; now to find guidance on what to do whenever I get my claws on their innards...
Basking in the sun,
Turtle