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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: trevstar on February 12, 2020, 09:07:45 AM

Title: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: trevstar on February 12, 2020, 09:07:45 AM
Once again let me apologize if this  has been covered already.  I need your expert opinions. Let us say in a basic joule thief  you have .5 volts input and it lights up a 3 volt LED. Is it possible to replace the LED with ANOTHER joule thief which could then amplify the current to maybe 18 volts?   


The only issue I can think of is that the oscillating  current from the first joule might not be effective to run the 2nd joule  and might mess up the transistor operation in the 2nd joule thief.


Thanks.
Trevor
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: forest on February 13, 2020, 04:49:16 PM
yes,if you find a joule thief which can amplify current  ::)
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: trevstar on February 13, 2020, 10:37:05 PM
Well, to be precise.
Do you think it can increase 1.5 volts to 3 then the
2nd Joule thief raise it to 18?
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: forest on February 14, 2020, 01:52:50 AM
well, you should ask electronics gurus, but I do not see why it would not be possible with proper arrangement. You can simulate it with cheap chinese step up converters. Take 1.5V battery and one dc-dc converter to step up voltage to 9V and store in capacitor, then step up from there to 24V for example using second dc-dc converter. But that way you cannot step up power or energy
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: Raycathode on February 14, 2020, 09:10:23 AM
Quote from: forest on February 14, 2020, 01:52:50 AM
well, you should ask electronics gurus, but I do not see why it would not be possible with proper arrangement. You can simulate it with cheap chinese step up converters. Take 1.5V battery and one dc-dc converter to step up voltage to 9V and store in capacitor, then step up from there to 24V for example using second dc-dc converter. But that way you cannot step up power or energy
Why would you think that. in an interview, Tesla said he found cold energy could be produced by narrow pulses and also said above 700hz energy flows over the body a skin effect use that if you will.

Raymondo
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: Raycathode on February 14, 2020, 10:45:03 AM
Have a look at this guys videos i think he has already done this in one of them, I think it makes the spike much narrower.

 
JB-N107Lab
Published on Feb 1, 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dARlGrdvDU4
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: trevstar on February 14, 2020, 03:25:37 PM
Hi.
I saw the video and translated the description  in google translate he seems to be explaining about one wire and wireless transmission of energy.   Is there a location on the video where  he  goes into the joule thief?
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: Kangsteri on March 07, 2023, 06:23:50 AM
The issue with this is the pulsed DC. That's why it's not possible to run RGB LEDs with regular joule thief. You need to add capacitor to smooth it out after first step. Or other option is to use coned coil, that will remove the pulsing too. It's usually also possible to use multiple joule thief's in parallel for the first stage to make it more powerful. There is two different usages for the joule thief, most people search for circuit that is using least amount of current. But there is also ways to get more current if that's the goal. You can put shorted wire or low value ceramic capacitor through the toroid to draw more current. Or use magnet to adjust more inductance on the core.
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: pix on March 07, 2023, 08:54:34 AM
Joule Thief is just a boost converter.
Amplifies voltage.
Good for LEDs only.
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: Kangsteri on March 07, 2023, 09:26:12 AM
Lol. Someone needs a bit more imagination... Joule thief is the origin of Joule ringer and Bedini SSG. It's good to know the base where you build structures, never build on ice ;D
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: pix on March 07, 2023, 12:30:59 PM
A Joule Thief depends on the same principle as boost converters. It uses the collapsing magnetic field of an inductor to increase the voltage over the input, in that way, they are the same.[/font][/size]
Simplifier - Voltage-Regulated Joule Thief (neocities.org) (https://simplifier.neocities.org/joule)


Do not expect amps from BEMF spikes created by coil with collapsing magnetic field.
It is good to use with "dead" batteries to power LED.
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: skywatcher on March 07, 2023, 12:46:34 PM
Quote from: trevstar on February 12, 2020, 09:07:45 AM
Once again let me apologize if this  has been covered already.  I need your expert opinions. Let us say in a basic joule thief  you have .5 volts input and it lights up a 3 volt LED. Is it possible to replace the LED with ANOTHER joule thief which could then amplify the current to maybe 18 volts?   


The only issue I can think of is that the oscillating  current from the first joule might not be effective to run the 2nd joule  and might mess up the transistor operation in the 2nd joule thief.


Thanks.
Trevor

You can boost the voltage as high as you want, but this doesn't generate any energy.
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: pix on March 07, 2023, 12:49:40 PM
Quote from: skywatcher on March 07, 2023, 12:46:34 PM
You can boost the voltage as high as you want, but this doesn't generate any energy.


Amen  :)
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: Cadman on March 08, 2023, 08:21:08 AM
Quote from: forest on February 13, 2020, 04:49:16 PM
yes,if you find a joule thief which can amplify current  ::)

Exactly!

The usual joule thief is sort of a backward device if you want to increase the power out. Since it's the magnetic field doing the work the final output should be a greater amperage than given, since the strength of magnetic fields of coils are determined by ampere turns per meter.

Something I try to keep in mind is voltage does not exist in any equation for the strength of magnetic fields of coils. The magnetic field of a coil with 100 A-t at 200 volt and 1 amp is half as strong as a coil with 200 A-t at 0.5 volts and 1 amp.

Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: pix on March 08, 2023, 08:32:23 AM
No energy is stored/created in magnetic core.
Energy is stored in the air gap.
What you put "in", you will get "out" minus losses.

Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: Kangsteri on March 08, 2023, 08:42:13 AM
The core is used so you don't need to use that much copper mass. But it will also delay the resonance. I think joule thief might have some true potential, if it's used to light solar panels, like Tritium nuclear battery etc. It's possible to use crystal radio, earth batteries, etc. as source for micro collecting.
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 09, 2023, 10:34:11 AM
Quote from: trevstar on February 12, 2020, 09:07:45 AM
Once again let me apologize if this  has been covered already.  I need your expert opinions. Let us say in a basic joule thief  you have .5 volts input and it lights up a 3 volt LED. Is it possible to replace the LED with ANOTHER joule thief which could then amplify the current to maybe 18 volts?   


The only issue I can think of is that the oscillating  current from the first joule might not be effective to run the 2nd joule  and might mess up the transistor operation in the 2nd joule thief.


Thanks.
Trevor


First, current is not volts.
Current is amps




Volts are what is stepped up here
Current decreases, as a function of the voltage multiplier


But yes we can, in fact, daisy chain multiple joule thiefs
Secondary transistors are optional, but not required


https://youtu.be/h9RgjAgSQOg (https://youtu.be/h9RgjAgSQOg)



Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 09, 2023, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: pix on March 07, 2023, 12:30:59 PM
A Joule Thief depends on the same principle as boost converters. It uses the collapsing magnetic field of an inductor to increase the voltage over the input, in that way, they are the same.[/font][/size]
Simplifier - Voltage-Regulated Joule Thief (neocities.org) (https://simplifier.neocities.org/joule)


Do not expect amps from BEMF spikes created by coil with collapsing magnetic field.
It is good to use with "dead" batteries to power LED.


Theres a couple of ways to gain current.
As mentioned above you can use 2 transistors in parallel from the source in a straight forward way
Or
invert one out of phase for a current amplifier


to tap into the current without disrupting the circuit, use a secondary coil (transformer)
-> diodes to capacitors.



Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 09, 2023, 10:48:25 AM
Quote from: Cadman on March 08, 2023, 08:21:08 AM
Exactly!

The usual joule thief is sort of a backward device if you want to increase the power out. Since it's the magnetic field doing the work the final output should be a greater amperage than given, since the strength of magnetic fields of coils are determined by ampere turns per meter.

Something I try to keep in mind is voltage does not exist in any equation for the strength of magnetic fields of coils. The magnetic field of a coil with 100 A-t at 200 volt and 1 amp is half as strong as a coil with 200 A-t at 0.5 volts and 1 amp.


Yes and no. You are forgetting about the time factor.
There is a current ramp up time
And a current ramp down time
Preceeding and proceeding the current maximum.


It will ultimately follow the characteristics of the transistor
But in a general sense; the current approximates a triangle wave
0 to infinity in 1/2 T then infinity to 0 in the second half
the "average" current is usually what we deal with in a technical sense
Title: Re: Joule Thief To Amplify Joule Thief?
Post by: sm0ky2 on March 09, 2023, 10:59:59 AM
It also depends on where you are measuring
Across the transistor? Or across the coil?
the coil is quadrated, so you have a full wave for current
it actually goes in the other direction during the 'off' cycle
some arrangements can take advantage of this
however, keep in mind that the coil currents are much smaller magnitude
than the transistor current.


It is best practice to measure the transistor separately
And compare power measurements.


As voltage is also different on the other side
(negative voltages on the coil during the 'off' cycle  as well)


some very interesting things happen when we begin to siphon off and store the electricity
we think we know whats in the batteries, dead as they may be
and the earth batteries, small solar cells etc have been tested to exhaustion


yet a tiny JT can still cause explosions and burn up wires