This Board is set up to encourage experimentation of NMR as a potential source of over unity-energy. Nuclei having a magnetic moment precess around a magnetic field at the Larmor frequency. If all the nuclei in a sample can be made to precess in synchronism then they can act like a perpetual generator supplying power. That this may be possible is evidence by Ramsay (one of the early researchers into NMR) where he describes the experiment as a spin system at negative temperature where he states "It was found for example that, when a negative temperature spin system was subjected to resonance radiation, more radiant energy was given off by the spin system than was absorbed". The attached paper gives details of the experiment.
Smudge
Here the topic was started back in 2016 ,however I believe some health issues of a few participants did cause it to fall off the page
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3322.msg56207#msg56207
Chet K
Smudge, I think this avenue is valuable to study!
The paper Smudge reffers to: Here (https://books.google.com.au/books?id=CxTtCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA397&lpg=PA397&dq=Ramsay+It+was+found+for+example+that,+when+a+negative+temperature+spin+system+was+subjected+to+resonance+radiation,+more+radiant+energy+was+given+off+by+the+spin+system+than+was+absorbed&source=bl&ots=BzuSO0Ey9_&sig=ACfU3U25q49F7_PpxR6Cd2cXXeHn0aJ3kw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjB5rn6tuzpAhXe4zgGHQnIBOYQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Ramsay%20It%20was%20found%20for%20example%20that%2C%20when%20a%20negative%20temperature%20spin%20system%20was%20subjected%20to%20resonance%20radiation%2C%20more%20radiant%20energy%20was%20given%20off%20by%20the%20spin%20system%20than%20was%20absorbed&f=false)
Floyd Sweet did study EPR, Electron Paramagnetic Resonance. View Here (http://www.hyiq.org/Downloads/Magnetic%20Resonance%20by%20Floyd%20A.%20Sweet.%20PH.%20D.pdf).
I have a problem with this however!
One must think Energy Transfer Mechanism!
Thermionic Converter, or "Generator", is not yet practical in small Energy Machines with large Outputs. So, IMHO we need to think Charge inside the Copper Wire, and getting this Charge to Move - Smudge and I disagree on this (https://overunity.com/18493/cyril-smith-aka-smudge-builders-group/), so for this reason, I will not go any further and let Smudge explain to you all how this works.
Best wishes, stay safe and well,
Chris Sykes
Can we please keep this thread clear of distractions. This is not EPR and this is not a Thermionic Converter.
Anyone can build a proton spin magnetometer using water as the proton source which has a NMR frequency of around 2KHz in the earth's field (pdf's below). Here on this bench we are using a novel geometry to attain uniformity of magnetic field as supplied by a pair of magnets at a field level where the resonant frequency is much higher than 2KHz, but still within the capability of the home experimenter. This may allow us to realize Ramsey's observation that the power radiated exceeds the power absorbed.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on June 06, 2020, 04:49:04 AM
Anyone can build a proton spin magnetometer using water as the proton source which has a NMR frequency of around 2KHz in the earth's field (pdf's below). Here on this bench we are using a novel geometry to attain uniformity of magnetic field as supplied by a pair of magnets at a field level where the resonant frequency is much higher than 2KHz, but still within the capability of the home experimenter. This may allow us to realize Ramsey's observation that the power radiated exceeds the power absorbed.
Smudge
The papers you quoted are very interesting but they show that it needs sophisticated electronic circuits to do the measurements. The fine tuning of the frequencies is tricky and the circuit boards need a certain layout to avoid cross-disturbances.
At least your papers and the ones cited started me to think hard. It is intriguing.
I like the set up with the circular water tube and the pancake coils left and right (including the disk magnets), which seems doable at home.
I have a function generator, but it then needs a pretty good circuit to reach the necessary power (Voltage and Amperage) to drive the pancake coils. Also the measuring of the output is not trivial because of the calibration. Does a scope suffice? How big is the difference in the output coil with and without water in the circular tube? The difference could be only in the dielectric properties and not in the magnetic resonance?
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
Thank you for your interest in this.
Quote from: conradelektro on June 06, 2020, 05:13:01 AM
The papers you quoted are very interesting but they show that it needs sophisticated electronic circuits to do the measurements. The fine tuning of the frequencies is tricky and the circuit boards need a certain layout to avoid cross-disturbances.
Don't get carried away by those magnetometer papers. As magnetometers they are used to measure very small changes in the earth's field and we are not doing that. We don't need the sophistication used there.
QuoteI have a function generator, but it then needs a pretty good circuit to reach the necessary power (Voltage and Amperage) to drive the pancake coils.
If you need a power amplifier then maybe someone on this forum could help with this.
QuoteAlso the measuring of the output is not trivial because of the calibration. Does a scope suffice?
Since we are dealing with sine waves a scope should suffice.
QuoteHow big is the difference in the output coil with and without water in the circular tube? The difference could be only in the dielectric properties and not in the magnetic resonance?
With no water present there should be no output, as input and output coils are at 90 degrees to each other. It is the gyratory property of the protons in the water that couple the input to the output.
Smudge
@Smudge: Thank you for your answers, it clarified a lot.
About the power amplifier:
As I recall, one wants several hundred Volts in the pancake coils, so, an audio speaker amplifier will not do it?
The frequency required for the pancake coils would be 4.25 MHz, which an audio speaker amplifier also can not do.
A power amplifier to several hundred Volts at 4.25 MHz is therefore not that easy. Should the pancake coils get short pulses or a sine wave?
My function generator can do up to 20 MHz sine waves and up to 5 MHz square waves (pulses). I do not want to over complicate the experiment, just wanting to understand the requirements for a possible build in relation to my meager skills.
RF power amplifiers are quite expensive (5000.-- and more):
https://www.bellnw.com/manufacturer/Electronics-and-Innovation/210L.htm (https://www.bellnw.com/manufacturer/Electronics-and-Innovation/210L.htm)
https://www.bellnw.com/manufacturer/Electronics-and-Innovation/1020L.htm (https://www.bellnw.com/manufacturer/Electronics-and-Innovation/1020L.htm)
Greetings, Conrad
Would this RF amplifier be good for the experiment?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/100KHz-60MHz-RF-Power-Amplifier-5W-Liner-Amplifier-RF-Broadband-HF-Amp/383126732260 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/100KHz-60MHz-RF-Power-Amplifier-5W-Liner-Amplifier-RF-Broadband-HF-Amp/383126732260)
100KHz-60MHz RF Power Amplifier 5W Liner Amplifier RF Broadband HF Amp (about $ 90.--)
Description: The RF amplifier is a linear power amplifier with low distortion and wide frequency range, which can be used for various forms of signal amplification. Worked as a final stage power amplifier, it can be applied to TPMS transmission, wireless charging and other communications or remote control, enhancing the transmission power and prolonging the transmission distance. And it also can act as a driver amplifier to promote a final stage high power amplifier. This medium-, long- and high- wave frequency amplifier is suitable for universities, research institutes and radio lovers.
Parameters:
- Frequency: 100 KHz-60 MHz
- Single Power Supply: 12-15V, 0.9A
- Gain: the default is 37dB. (If you need other gains, please contact with our customer service staff.)
- Input Power: 1mW (0dBm); Output Power: 4W
- Working Voltage: 12V (Output Power reaches 6W when the operating voltage comes to 15V)
- Resistance: 50Ω
- THD: - 18dBc Typical Value (Max. output power)
- Input & Output Connector: SMA Female
- Size: 103 x 90 x 50mm (Excludes the size of the input & output connector and the power connector)
Package Included:
- 1 x Radio Frequency Amplifier
This shows that a good RF power amplifier is not easily built at home.
There are 2.5 Watt Chinese RF amplifiers (1 - 1000 MHZ) for about $ 50.-- available.
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on June 06, 2020, 08:44:59 AM
@Smudge: Thank you for your answers, it clarified a lot.
About the power amplifier:
As I recall, one wants several hundred Volts in the pancake coils, so, an audio speaker amplifier will not do it?
The frequency required for the pancake coils would be 4.25 MHz, which an audio speaker amplifier also can not do.
A power amplifier to several hundred Volts at 4.25 MHz is therefore not that easy.
It is quite standard practice to drive from a low voltage low impedance source into a series resonant LC circuit where the inductance obtains a much higher voltage. If your resonant circuit has a Q of 100 then the several hundred volts needed comes from a source of just several volts. Audio speaker amplifiers have output impedance of just a few ohms but of course may only cover the audio spectrum. Others may have an output impedance of 50 ohms. This value must be taken into account when calculating the Q.
QuoteShould the pancake coils get short pulses or a sine wave?
Sine waves, the CW system applies sine waves. The pulse NMR system is more complex and not recommended at this stage.
QuoteMy function generator can do up to 20 MHz sine waves and up to 5 MHz square waves (pulses). I do not want to over complicate the experiment, just wanting to understand the requirements for a possible build in relation to my meager skills.
That should be quite adequate.
Smudge
Quote from: conradelektro on June 06, 2020, 09:41:05 AM
Would this RF amplifier be good for the experiment?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/100KHz-60MHz-RF-Power-Amplifier-5W-Liner-Amplifier-RF-Broadband-HF-Amp/383126732260 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/100KHz-60MHz-RF-Power-Amplifier-5W-Liner-Amplifier-RF-Broadband-HF-Amp/383126732260)
100KHz-60MHz RF Power Amplifier 5W Liner Amplifier RF Broadband HF Amp (about $ 90.--)
I would say that would do nicely. The Chinese ones you mentioned could also be used.
Regards
Smudge
What large value should the capacitor have to match the 50 Ohm source of the RF amplifier shown in my post above? (100KHz-60MHz RF Power Amplifier 5W Liner Amplifier RF Broadband HF Amp)
I did a simple calculation for Q=1 of the circuit:
U * I = 5 Watt , U = I * 50 Ohm
From this follows: I = 0,31 and V = 15,8
Greetings, Conrad
Quote from: conradelektro on June 06, 2020, 02:16:46 PM
What large value should the capacitor have to match the 50 Ohm source of the RF amplifier shown in my post above? (100KHz-60MHz RF Power Amplifier 5W Liner Amplifier RF Broadband HF Amp)
I did a simple calculation for Q=1 of the circuit:
U * I = 5 Watt , U = I * 50 Ohm
From this follows: I = 0,31 and V = 15,8
Greetings, Conrad
Well it all depends on your inductance value for the pair of pancake coils. The variable capacitor (shown as 100pF max) will tune to the desired frequency and the fixed capacitor has to be much greater than whatever that tuned value comes to. And the frequency to tune to will depend on the magnitude of the applied field from the magnets. A good guide to get high Q is for the fixed capacitor to be be at least 10 times the variable one, possibly even 100 times. I will try to do a spreadsheet where you can input your inductance value, the resistance of the coils (taking into account skin effect), the tuned capacitor value, the fixed capacitor value, the generator voltage and the generator source impedance. Hopefully it will give you a chart of the voltage across the pancake coils against frequency showing it peaking in the typical resonant manner.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on June 07, 2020, 11:20:08 AM
Well it all depends on your inductance value for the pair of pancake coils. The variable capacitor (shown as 100pF max) will tune to the desired frequency and the fixed capacitor has to be much greater than whatever that tuned value comes to. And the frequency to tune to will depend on the magnitude of the applied field from the magnets. A good guide to get high Q is for the fixed capacitor to be be at least 10 times the variable one, possibly even 100 times. I will try to do a spreadsheet where you can input your inductance value, the resistance of the coils (taking into account skin effect), the tuned capacitor value, the fixed capacitor value, the generator voltage and the generator source impedance. Hopefully it will give you a chart of the voltage across the pancake coils against frequency showing it peaking in the typical resonant manner.
Smudge
Thank you for your help.
I will try to print the circular water tube with my 3D-Printer within the next days. It will be interesting whether this will be possible.
And then I will order the following RF amplifier from China. The resistance of the output is not clear, but I hope to be able to figure it out. The EUR 22,04 will not hurt me, even if all is in vain. May be I can set up a revolutionary radio station if all fails.
https://www.ebay.at/itm/1-1000MHz-2-5W-HF-VHF-UHF-FM-Transmitter-RF-Power-Amplifier-AMP-For-Ham-Radio/192772405806 (https://www.ebay.at/itm/1-1000MHz-2-5W-HF-VHF-UHF-FM-Transmitter-RF-Power-Amplifier-AMP-For-Ham-Radio/192772405806)
Broadband RF small power amplifier, suitable for all types of radio transmission, such as: short-wave FM wireless remote control, FM radio station transmission, amateur radio 135-175MHz, 380-470 MHz walkie-talkie and other launches. The low-frequency input 2mW can output 2.5W maximum power, and the maximum output can be 2W at 500MHz. The maximum output can be 1.5W at 800MHz. The maximum output can be 1.0W at 1000MHz. The amplifier housing has a heat dissipation function and can work stably for a long time.
Technical parameters:
1) Operating frequency: 1-1000 MHz 2) Output power: input power: 2mW (3dBm)
2.5W (34 dBm) low frequency end (100 MHz) 2.0W (33 dBm) IF terminal (500 MHz)
1.5W (31 dBm) high frequency end (800 MHz)
1.0W (30 dBm) high frequency end (1000 MHz)
3) Working voltage: 15V (DC)
4) Operating current: 430 mA (determined by output power)
5) RF connector: standard SMA female
6) Dimensions: 82*71*25 mm (length * width * height)
7) Product weight: 90 g (the housing has heat dissipation function)
Getting the RF amplifier will take up top a month, so, do not hold your breath.
Greetings, Conrad
Conrad:
Fairly standard amp, most likely 50ohm impd. Typical for most.
thay
Quote from: Thaelin on June 07, 2020, 11:46:01 AM
Conrad:
Fairly standard amp, most likely 50ohm impd. Typical for most.
thay
Thank you for the reply.
What do you think about it's input impedance? I want to drive it with my 50 Ohm function generator (sine wave at about 4 MHz).
https://www.peaktech.de/produktdetails/kategorie/dds-multifunktionsgeneratoren/produkt/peaktech-4060.871.html (https://www.peaktech.de/produktdetails/kategorie/dds-multifunktionsgeneratoren/produkt/peaktech-4060.871.html)
Greetings, Conrad
@Smudge: would a "140 mm / 60 mm / 20 mm" Feritt ring magnet also work? It seems to be difficult to get disk magnets larger than with a 100 mm diameter.
With the 140 mm ring magnet the 100 mm circular water tube would be in the middle of the ring (between the 60 mm inner diameter and the 140 mm outer diameter).
Greetings, Conrad
Conrad:
D/l the user manual pdf for that unit and refer to page 56. At the top is says you also have a Power Amp built into it. Be ware of it tho. Do not over drive the RF amp as you will destroy the pre-amp side in it. Your SG says it will do max 10 W to an 8 ohm load. You will be doing a 50 on the RF side. Start out low voltage and low amplitude to get the best results.
thay
Quote from: Thaelin on June 08, 2020, 01:46:42 AM
Conrad:
D/l the user manual pdf for that unit and refer to page 56. At the top is says you also have a Power Amp built into it. Be ware of it tho. Do not over drive the RF amp as you will destroy the pre-amp side in it. Your SG says it will do max 10 W to an 8 ohm load. You will be doing a 50 on the RF side. Start out low voltage and low amplitude to get the best results.
thay
@thay: thank you for the information, helps a lot.
I tried to find the user manual PDF online, but no success. Do you have a link? Or you could attach the PDF file?
Greetings, Conrad
Conrad:
I will try but the last 3 times it has just hung up for me:
thay
Quote from: Thaelin on June 08, 2020, 05:56:10 AM
Conrad:
I will try but the last 3 times it has just hung up for me:
thay
@thai: Sorry, I thought you have found a PDF user manual of the RF power amplifier from China. But it is helpful that you read the function generator manual more carefully than I ever did.
I could 3D-print a circular tube as specified by Smudge, see the attached photo. My Creality Ender III Pro which I bought recently for EUR 230.-- managed the difficult bridging when printing the hollow tube without supports. Clearly, I did not want supports inside the circular hollow tube.
If an experimenter needs a similar circular tube I am willing to print one and send it by mail. The experimenter either pays me EUR 1000.-- or simply asks nicely.
Now I need to know, whether (140 mm / 60 mm / 20 mm) ring magnets which I talked about in my post above will be good for the replication (instead of disk magnets).
Greetings, Conrad
Conrad: I wonder what would happen if the tube was filled with liquid mercury, and a spinning vortex of mercury could be created.Would it fly off by itself... As some antigravity space craft seam to use mercury for their drive systems. Sorry for the off topic. Just some thoughts that came to mind. As it seams to me that as inward vortex is what can draw extra external energy into a closed system.
NickZ
Quote from: conradelektro on June 07, 2020, 02:09:27 PM
@Smudge: would a "140 mm / 60 mm / 20 mm" Feritt ring magnet also work? It seems to be difficult to get disk magnets larger than with a 100 mm diameter.
With the 140 mm ring magnet the 100 mm circular water tube would be in the middle of the ring (between the 60 mm inner diameter and the 140 mm outer diameter).
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
That magnet size would be ideal. I like your tube construction by printing, hope it works out OK. I have created a spread sheet for the input circuit solving the equations but it is quite complex and does something silly at the resonant frequency. It is a math problem (something like dividing by zero) which needs sorting out.
Smudge
Quote from: NickZ on June 08, 2020, 11:43:03 AM
Conrad: I wonder what would happen if the tube was filled with liquid mercury, and a spinning vortex of mercury could be created.Would it fly off by itself...
@NickZ: Mercury poisoning would happen!
@Smudge: Thank you for your calculations, it is not urgent. Attached a drawing of the setup I am thinking about.
Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad,
That's a great graphic and exactly what's needed (except it doesn't show the toroidal coil wound on the ring but I am sure that will follow).
Keep up the good work.
Smudge
Quote from: conradelektro on June 08, 2020, 08:08:49 AM
My Creality Ender III Pro which I bought recently for EUR 230.-- managed the difficult bridging when printing the hollow tube without supports. Clearly, I did not want supports inside the circular hollow tube.
You could also use a hexagonal cross section which would be easier to print. 3D printed objects are not really watertight so you might need to refill from time to time. Treating the printed tube with a flame for a very short time, only melting the surface, might seal the surface.
Interesting thread BTW. NMR is an interesting topic.
@skywatcher: interesting, I will test the watertightness of my printed tube. On first sight and with a "blow-test" my tube seems to be tight, but I will do a test over days.
@Smudge: after a long contemplation, I decided to abandon a build and further tests. My electronic skills are not adequate and I do not want to go to the public workshop where I could set up the whole thing because of the Coronavirus (I am an old man who should not get the virus).
My very little contribution is the attached PDF-file which contains links to the necessary equipment (RF amplifier, capacitors, magnets). And if someone wants a 3D-printed circular tube, please send me a PM with a shipping address. I am prepared to produce and ship a few for free. I can also send the .stl file which has to be fed to the slicer for your 3D-printer (to produce the g-code). But if you have access to a 3D-printer you would want to designe the tube yourself.
Greetings, Conrad
@skywatcher and all experimenters: my 3D-printed tube is not watertight.
After a while at the lowest point (if the tube is suspendet vertically) water dissipates through the 1 mm thick PLA (which consists of 0.2 mm strands stuck together by heat).
Such a tube has to be treated with paint. Heat, I guess, would distort the shape of the tube before melting it uniformly.
Skywatcher taught me an important lesson.
Greetings, Conrad
Conrad, your contribution here has been greatly appreciated ,I am contacting a few who can carry this open source effort forward here. also asking about simple methods to seal the fixture [shellac or] that would not effect the experiment.
tremendous gratitude
Chet K
PS, there are a few more builders topics coming to the forum.[one water Fuel topic too [heating..or ?
Quote from: conradelektro on June 09, 2020, 05:02:06 AM
@skywatcher and all experimenters: my 3D-printed tube is not watertight.
After a while at the lowest point (if the tube is suspendet vertically) water dissipates through the 1 mm thick PLA (which consists of 0.2 mm strands stuck together by heat).
Such a tube has to be treated with paint. Heat, I guess, would distort the shape of the tube before melting it uniformly.
Skywatcher taught me an important lesson.
Greetings, Conrad
I have made good experiences with heat treatment of 3D printed PLA parts. Not only for sealing, they are also looking better sometimes after heating the surface. I use a small gas torch (size like a lighter, but with a blue flame, you can get them in 1€ stores) and if you do it right this will not distort the shape, it's only necessary to slightly melt up the surface. You need the right lighting angle to see the PLA melting. As soon as it gets shiny, you have to stop heating. After this treatment it should be watertight. Maybe you should increase the thickness of the wall a little bit. 1mm is very thin. Maybe 1.5 or 2 mm would be better.
That's the kind of torch i'm using:
https://www.amazon.de/Sturmfeuerzeug-Feuerzeug-nachf%C3%BCllbar-Gasbrenner-Flambierer/dp/B01MYC8683/
If the heating method doesn't work, i would suggest using epoxy resin or UV-curable glue to seal the surface. I would not use paint.
Quote from: skywatcher on June 09, 2020, 01:14:13 PM
If the heating method doesn't work, i would suggest using epoxy resin or UV-curable glue to seal the surface. I would not use paint.
@skywatcher@ thank you for the information, also for the link to the lighter. I started 3D-printing with my own printer three months ago and there is still much to learn. I use Autodesk Fusion 360 (the non commercial licence), do you know a better technical drawing program. And Ultimaker Cura 4.5 was o.k. so far as a slicer. I also tried PrusaSlicer but did not find a convincing profile for my Creality Ender III pro, but it worked any way.
I wanted to by a Prusa Mini 3D-Printer, but the delivery time was/is September. Maybe I buy an Original Prusa i3 MK3S kit eventually, but it also has a long lead time (5 to 6 weeks). Hopefully my Ender III pro lasts till Prusa comes up with a new modell.
Greetings, Conrad
I'm using OpenSCAD: https://www.openscad.org/ (https://www.openscad.org/)
It's like a programming language. For technical things which consist of geometrical shapes it's very good, and it doesn't require much ressources. You don't even need to install it. I'm not a friend of huge software packages like CAD programs where you have 73 different methods to draw a simple line, and you need 4 weeks of training to draw your first cube. I rarely use more than 2% of the functions such programs have, so i prefer software which only has these 2%...
The hollow torus with 2 tubes would only be a few lines of code in OpenSCAD.
I use Cinema 4d. There is a free version that should let you do what you need for printing. There is blender. It does fantastic stuff but more complicated to get into unless your really into renderings and animation, film... That is what I was going for with cinema but since I know it, it makes the process good for me. like a .05mm difference on the 3d environment and your printer will do a good job of making that change in print. Love these printers.
There is another 3d prog that seems very good but it is online, dont remember what it is, ill look.. Has some tools I wish I had. I just dont like any of my work being out in the open like that. its nobodies business if I make a better toilet paper dispenser let alone what we are striving for.. ;)
Mags
At the moment this topic is at itsu bench here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82540;topicseen#msg82540 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82540;topicseen#msg82540)
of course any results will be posted on this board or if others here become interested and want to build here ...quite certain full support will follow.
Many thanks to Conrad for his wonderful offer, efforts and contributions..
with Gratitude Chet K....Ps this update posted with itsu's permission.
an update [with permission]
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82565;topicseen#msg82565 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82565;topicseen#msg82565)
as written earlier, support is always offered here for open source experimenters wishing to Join in or try other variations [perhaps make suggestions ?
respectfully Chet K
PS personally I find this fascinating and the cooperation between members...IMO the best part.
Quote from: ramset on June 22, 2020, 09:56:51 AM
an update [with permission]
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82565;topicseen#msg82565 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82565;topicseen#msg82565)
as written earlier, support is always offered here for open source experimenters wishing to Join in or try other variations [perhaps make suggestions ?
respectfully Chet K
PS personally I find this fascinating and the cooperation between members...IMO the best part.
magnetic field detector arrives video https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82620;topicseen#msg82620 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82620;topicseen#msg82620)
latest update
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82659;topicseen#msg82659 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82659;topicseen#msg82659)
with gratitude Chet K
update
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82768;topicseen#msg82768
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82854;topicseen#msg82854
shared with much gratitude
Since current in each winding of symmetrical coil is opposed to the other wouldn't the magnetic field tend to cancel each other out? Current flows one direction then loops back on itself so therefore I would think they would cancel each other.
Asking out of curiosity since I've never seen that configuration.
Sir
Fellows are very busy ATM
However I will be certain your question is noticed
Thank you for the interest and question.
Respectfully
Chet K
Quote from: kajunbee on July 04, 2020, 12:19:38 PM
Since current in each winding of symmetrical coil is opposed to the other wouldn't the magnetic field tend to cancel each other out? Current flows one direction then loops back on itself so therefore I would think they would cancel each other.
Hi Kajunbee,
These are not solenoidal coils, they are flat pancake coils. We don't use the axial field that passes through the coils, we use the radial field that passes over the flat surface of the coils. In the bucking configuration the axial fields from each coil do indeed oppose each other, but the radial fields between the two coils are additive.
Smudge
update of progress
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg82915;topicseen#msg82915
Quote from: Smudge on July 05, 2020, 04:43:38 AM
Hi Kajunbee,
These are not solenoidal coils, they are flat pancake coils. We don't use the axial field that passes through the coils, we use the radial field that passes over the flat surface of the coils. In the bucking configuration the axial fields from each coil do indeed oppose each other, but the radial fields between the two coils are additive.
Smudge
So would I be correct in saying that you effectively create a Quadrapole magnetic field also referred to as anti-Helmholtz magnetic trap. Looking forward to your response and thank you for your time.
Quote from: kajunbee on July 06, 2020, 10:57:58 PM
So would I be correct in saying that you effectively create a Quadrapole magnetic field
Yes, two magnetic dipoles back to back create a linear magnetic quadrupole. But normally the terms dipole or quadrupole are reserved for poles that are points sources, and that is not the case for current loops. For the pancake coils it is quite difficult to define where the poles are, they are spread out through space. If you put a cylindrical box around both coils then the two flat surfaces of that cylinder can be considered say N poles while the curved surface is a S pole (or vice versa). That may look like a tripole and many people fall into the trap of calling it a tripole, but in fact when two dipoles are brought together so that the mating poles merge into each other you end up with just three poles, but the correct name is a linear quadrupole. (A square quadrupole has the two dipoles side by side and then there are four separate poles)
Smudge
Quote from: kajunbee on July 06, 2020, 10:57:58 PM
......................also referred to as anti-Helmholtz magnetic trap.
Such traps do not use pancake coils but yes, the two coils in opposition act somewhat like those traps. Classical Helmholtz coils create a cylindrical spatial region where samples may be put so as to be in a uniform axial field. This anti-Helmholtz arrangement using pancake coils creates an annular spatial region where our circular water sample may be put so as to be withing a radial field.
Smudge
Quote from: Smudge on May 26, 2020, 11:16:02 AM
This Board is set up to encourage experimentation of NMR as a potential source of over unity-energy. Nuclei having a magnetic moment precess around a magnetic field at the Larmor frequency.
If all the nuclei in a sample can be made to precess in synchronism then they can act like a perpetual generator supplying power.
That this may be possible is evidence by Ramsay (one of the early researchers into NMR) where he describes the experiment
as a spin system at negative temperature where he states "
It was found for example that, when a negative temperature spin system was subjected to resonance radiation,
more radiant energy was given off by the spin system than was absorbed". The attached paper gives details of the experiment.
Smudge
When someone speaks Chinese the only left for us Westerners form of communication is paper drawing and sign language for hearing- impaired individuals.
Language of physics uses characters of e.g English language adds to it its own symbols, forms equations, meanings and rules needed to communicate in this language.
So lets take Chinese trying to explain something in Chinese,+ sign+ drawings, but he doesn't know physics and is totally wrong.What would you learn from him?
Chinese students are occupying our American universities to be able to communicate in our universal English language.
But if they are not educated in language of physics than their English explanation may be incorrect.
So some of them who knows English and are in Physics can correct other Chinese..
Conclusion:
every language doesn't need to explain meaning of blocks of information widely known with words such as: Earth, air, flow, mechanics, baby, art, and so on..
But there are professionals in e.g mechanics and some others in science of e.g mechanics.
Their knowledge is higher than average Joe in that particular field.
________________________________
So you Smudge need to try to talk in language of physics using English descriptors .
But what if you only know English but only to some extend physics?
Well than you need help from these who speaks physics better..
But how do you know that someone is not wrong in physics and knows it better than you?
Well By using process of verification in the internet you can differentiate between e.g dull Russian troll and professional.
Yes : Talented Russian troll may fool you too because he is paid money for confusing you and sending into wrong path.
Yes: there are people like me who are not paid and dedicate their time for others to understand physics better.
Yes: I can be mistaken too , but that will be surprise to myself too.
__________________________________________________________
over unity-energy. doesn't exist never existed and will never exist.
perpetual generator supplying power.
perpetual motion is fiction. It doesn't exist never existed and will never exist.
Eather doesn't exist never existed and will never exist. but it was just a concept- a model rejected by science .
so these meanings or information blocks must be excluded as totally wrong till anyone will come with supporting it explanation.
But using these blocks to explain anything is wrong.
Example :
1. Using magic or God teaching to explain
difference between effect of sperm of human causing birth, and other mammals sperm causing the same.
2.
physics doesn't recognize any "gods or any magic" so these blocks must be excluded as false models of the past for physics we are just HUMAN ANIMALS whether you like it or not ....
____________________________________________________________
conclusion: we may find and I'm sure that there is way to use NMR
in the processes associated with energy conversion and energy extraction .And this alone is worth of my time here.
Wesley
I do thank you for this topic as it is important to our FE community
Wesley
.
Here another Update [with permission of experimenters]
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83026;topicseen#msg83026 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83026;topicseen#msg83026)
with respect
and gratitude Chet K
preliminary run thru [not ready to test yet ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57KryMiFsG8
and another experiment fixture with spec Data [yet to be run at the task]
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83066;topicseen#msg83066
Why they do what they do.... and what it actually means if successful ...
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83085;topicseen#msg83085
verpies post is brilliant.
In:
https://overunity.com/18335/wireless-energy-transfer-experiments-builders-board/msg547764/#msg547764 (https://overunity.com/18335/wireless-energy-transfer-experiments-builders-board/msg547764/#msg547764)
I presented an amplifier made for NMR.
But my question to you guys is we took electromagnetic energy and converted it to proton precession
we saw this energy on the oscilloscope and than what?
Can any one of you explain me what is the goal?
Wesley :)
In reply to Verpies rant, may I offer my own rant.
Quote
.........................In this entire endeavor (this thread) we are trying to convert the AC electric energy from the source into a third form of energy - the energy of proton's precession**, and to detect this energy.
I would not use the word "convert". Conversion of one form of energy into another brings in the whole thorny concept of CoE. I would say that in this endeavour we are trying to use the AC electrical energy of the source to
enable energy to be extracted from the perpetual precession motions of the protons. I think this "conversion" aspect comes from the quantum mechanical approach where you define the splitting of energy levels (see image below) which doesn't convey the actual precession motion of the spinning nucleus. I come from the old school where I believe the nucleus does actually spin and precess, that precession motion exists and is perpetual but is so random between atoms that it does not create observable signals. Yes you need to apply energy in order to see a signal, and certainly in the usual pulsed NMR experiments the quantum mechanical approach supplies the answer for the needed energies. But if the precession motions are perpetual and our energy input has merely taken away the randomness, why can't we keep this cohered state going forever and continually extract energy from those precessions? Ramsey's observations some 70 years ago suggests this may be possible. That then begs the question, why in the last 70 years has no one followed this up or found out how to do it? I think this may be due to the classical NMR experimental approach using solenoidal coils where the material sample containing the nuclei under investigation is within that coil. The scientists use "filling factor" to define the volume of the sample in relation to the volume of the solenoid. At 100% filling factor it is assumed that this gives maximum coupling between the sample and the coil. However those of us skilled in the art know that, if we treat the sample as a form of magnetic core, that core will suffer a demagnetization effect. The only way to eliminate such demagnetization is by use of very long thin solenoid-plus-cores, or the use of ring cores with toroidal windings. The former leads to problems in maintaining the uniformity of the crossed static field along the length of the solenoid, and as far as I know no one has attempted the use of the ring core approach. The cylindrical symmetry of the static field from disc magnets offers uniformity of the crossed field throughout the ring sample, and the toroidal coil offers maximum coupling with no demagnetization effects.
QuoteThis is a different form of energy from the two listed above. This difference is an exciting stuff in itself.
Yes, and if we achieve OU we know where the anomalous energy comes from
Quote**Of course the proton precession energy eventually gets converted to heat through spin relaxation.
That is true for pulsed NMR, but note that there are two relaxation times. The thermal relaxation is much longer than the dephasing relaxation. I think that CW operation offers the possibility that, after the initial switch-on absorption-energy has got the precessions cohered, the continued absorption energy rate needed to keep the phasing intact is lower than the radiated power extracted.
Smudge
More technique and Data acquisition from components .
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83163;topicseen#msg83163
Note to Conrad ...the file for the printed component you made and sent itsu ?
if still available [[you wrote about moving house
itsu needs it.. or if anybody else has received the water tube 3D file ?
I will ask for this post to be removed once there is response.
Link to open source NMR project here.
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83193;topicseen#msg83193
remarkable methods [trouble shooting] and progress
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83297;topicseen#msg83297
some tuning discussion and "dialing in"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulA76NW0fT4
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837185,00.html (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837185,00.html)
Quote from: Turbo on July 24, 2020, 01:47:53 AM
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837185,00.html (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837185,00.html)
Why have you posted a link to a 53 year old article on old CRT televisions? What has this to do with NMR?
Smudge
Smudge
When Turbo first posted link it connected
With entire story
A story or article that I believe I had read here in years past
In TPU topic maybe
Now I see link is as pic below
No real frame of reference or perspective and request to sign up for membership ?
IMO
a privilege to see the experiment unfold ...
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83535;topicseen#msg83535 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83535;topicseen#msg83535)
Yes, a very interesting experiment and a wealth of knowledge to be gained. I've been doing research on nmr so as to better follow what is being discussed. This lead me to some other questions. So as I understand the precession frequency is related to the strength of the static b field. And the static field will be provided by disk shaped magnets. Itsu stated that the precession frequency is 4.2 MHz. So I found a Larmor frequency calculator online and it gives a field strength of .1 Tesla. So if this is correct how do you determine the strength of the magnets that you will use. Is the magnetic field strength between 2 magnets additive. Meaning if one is 900 gauss and the other is 1000 gauss would you say the field strength is 1900 gauss or half or something in between. Also how does the separation distance effect the strength and uniformity of the field. I ask because according to the calculator a small deviation in field strength greatly influences the frequency. Hopefully this post makes sense to you and I'm not totally misunderstanding.
Hi kajunbee,
Ferrite magnets have been chosen because they will give a field strength of 0.1 Tesla at the water sample. To establish the field strength that a given magnet will provide you use the known remanent field characteristic of the magnet material (Brem) then create a load line on it. That load line is related to the demagnetizing factor for the magnet shape. That only gives you the surface field at the magnet poles, so you need more calculations to determine the field at some distance, and since the magnet poles are not point sources you cannot use the often quoted inverse square law relationship with distance. This whole process is very complicated so the easiest way to do it is by the use of finite element programs that are available. For the annular disc magnets we should really use a 3D program, but as I don't have one I used a 2D program called FEMM. Putting in the magnet dimensions and spacing and the ceramic characteristics this yielded the 0.1 Tesla value. As to your question, is the magnetic field between two magnets additive, the answer is yes but with qualification. If two magnets close together have opposing fields then there is the possibility that they can partially demagnetize, in which case you can't then simply subtract the original fields. This doesn't happen with NdFeB magnets because they are difficult to demagnetize, but force a ferrite magnet close to a NdFeB one and almost certainly the ferrite one will demagnetize or even get reverse magnetized.
Smudge
working thru inevitable sorting of unique test protocol to establish procedure [shared with permission of builders]
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83606;topicseen#msg83606 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83606;topicseen#msg83606)
up date on build
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83735;topicseen#msg83735
Plotting the path forward!
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5sahiruqkaq8iv46ntn103o516&topic=3924.msg83796;topicseen#msg83796 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=5sahiruqkaq8iv46ntn103o516&topic=3924.msg83796;topicseen#msg83796)
update
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83848;topicseen#msg83848
It is great to see such wonderful progress Chet! I see you have the best men on the job!
Best wishes, stay safe and well in these dire times,
Chris
Chris
Yes .. It is a privilege to watch such transparent Open source research on this level ...strangers working together globally.....absolutely wonderful example of what a true open source investigation looks like.
persons sharing their time .. skills and resources to help humanity.... and hopefully advance the science ...everybody wins regardless ...
and as witness here ...they can ask questions regarding the experiment as well [within reason, since it is a work in progress.
..nothing but gratitude here.
thx Chet
Quote from: EMJunkie on August 11, 2020, 09:26:27 AM
It is great to see such wonderful progress Chet! I see you have the best men on the job!
Best wishes, stay safe and well in these dire times,
Chris
It is also wonderful how transparent Chris thread is.
It is so transparent that I can not see any experiments.
Measurements are out of the question. We must have a faith.
And Chris thread is open source, it is open to all kind of beautiful commercials for his web site.
Wonderful place. I enjoy reading it every time.
Maybe if can add some music to commercials? That would be nice.
We all can learn from Chris.
He also use his best men for the job. Himself.
Probably nobody of his followers does not want to do for him,
they are too much occupied with other marvelous inventions ATM.
They got badges and points for that, which we dont have here.
And if they ever invent something, Chris will sell it so they can continue research,
and maybe Chris can visit Bahamas while members work.
Such a nobel leader.
In years he developed one or two aboveunity device (his words), he is still not sure is it one or two, but he will figure that in time.
Chris is wonderful researcher, transparent and open source orientated.
We should all follow him and obey to everything he asks.
I am so glad that we have such member here.
Please only NMR discussions regarding experiment below
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83849;topicseen#msg83849.
[or start separate topic for other discussions
Thx
Chet
Quote from: Smudge link="https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83843#msg83843" date=1597169605
Sorry for the delay in replying but I have been busy dealing with family matters. Going back to your data posted in reply 510 where you observed a resonance at 5.695MHz. I misunderstood the set up so my reply 512 where I thought this would be a problem was wrong. Your reply 518 showed the set up and (if we ignore the small phase delays along the coax cables) you had the pancake coils connected in parallel having an inductance that you quoted earlier as 4.9uH at the 16mm separation, and the signal was fed from transmitter to receiver through this inductance. The coax connections added lumped capacitance across each coil, and you also had earlier measurements of intra-turn capacitance of 174.75pF for a single pancake coil, which is far greater than the coax capacitance. Thus you had the signal being fed through a parallel LC circuit that calculates to have a resonance of 3.85MHz based on those values, whereas the actual resonance was that 5.695MHz. That created the dip in transmission. That is a good result since in the actual NMR experiment we want to use resonance to get maximum current into the coils, and we can easily lower the self resonance by adding capacitance. The bad news is that we cannot use the input matching circuit I originally proposed, which puts a high value capacitance in series with the one producing the resonance.
Now answering your specific questions, your method of connecting the coils via the S21 fixture and the Tee is simply connecting the parallel LC circuit across the 50 Ohm signal source. This is of course a complete mismatch at resonance and does not make use of the high Q that can be obtained with better matching. So I would expect the signal induced into the H-field sensor to follow a low Q resonance peaking at 5.9MHz. For the phase plot I would expect this be +90 degrees at the lowest frequency, falling as the frequency rises then rising again to pass through +90 degrees at that self resonant frequency, then rising towards +180 degrees.
To maximize the current into the coils we must use a high impedance source, and that requires a step-up transformer between the 50 ohm signal source and the coils. I am sorry that this wasn't made clear at the start, but I did not envisage the complex interleaved winding arrangements that would create such huge self capacitance.
Smudge
Aww, that's a shame, it appears there is a lot of problems in the NMR Experiment.
I hope the guys can get the problems sorted soon! Its great to see such a wonderful bunch of people working on this! Lets get to the bottom of this and see whats really achievable from the best minds on the planet! I hope, soon we can see some real progress!
Best wishes, stay safe and well in these dire times,
Chris
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83849;topicseen#msg83849 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83849;topicseen#msg83849)
Hoping things go better for you and family Cyril
Will keep your wife in our thoughts for speedy recovery.
Thanks for all you do,
I apologize for continuing Taunts above! ( most likely he would not allow this behavior
For an instant At his forum!
With gratitude
Chet
Wishing for a speedy and full recovery also!
No "taunt" was intended! Well wishing was!
Best wishes,
Chris
All is well
And the path continues
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83987;topicseen#msg83987 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg83987;topicseen#msg83987)
more experiments and investigation
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84121;topicseen#msg84121
Supplies arrived and now a new prototype
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84246#msg84246 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84246#msg84246)
some investigation and data from prototype
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJtPG3lDiEM
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84296;topicseen#msg84296
amazingly elusive and hard ground to cover [new untested protocols]
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84333;topicseen#msg84333
tremendous gratitude here.
That last pic is good but to drive like that is critical in terms of timing even the connecting leads have to be cut to match half and quarter wavelengths and its a key element in separating and extracting and decoupling the in and out coming signals from each other without overloading the pre amp.
Both should be close to exact opposites as possible on the Smith chart.
Can you verify which Pic [or in which post please ?
thanks for looking and commenting !
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84333;topicseen#msg84333
perseverance will hopefully help to sort the difficulties encountered when prototyping [open source prototyping ]
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84407;topicseen#msg84407
issues with scopes pop up from time to time .....
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84479;topicseen#msg84479 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84479;topicseen#msg84479)
Working through some issues
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=cgq059egus5ta8r2pf5cebngh7&topic=3924.msg84645;topicseen#msg84645 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=cgq059egus5ta8r2pf5cebngh7&topic=3924.msg84645;topicseen#msg84645)
The work continues
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84832;topicseen#msg84832 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg84832;topicseen#msg84832)
Update
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85126;topicseen#msg85126 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85126;topicseen#msg85126)
Component upgrade and pending comparison !
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85155;topicseen#msg85155 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85155;topicseen#msg85155)
https://overunity.com/17735/wesleys-kapanadze-and-other-fe-discussion-forum/msg552959/#msg552959
NMR and proton precession / magnetometers techniques
Wesley
Wesley
Thankyou for links and information ( Tips on how to hunt for the unusual? )
Here some updates from the trenches/benches !
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85410;topicseen#msg85410 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85410;topicseen#msg85410)
With gratitude
Chet K
Fabrication issues ( soldering?)
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85775;topicseen#msg85775 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg85775;topicseen#msg85775)
Suggestions welcomed
Respectfully
Chet K
Hi Chet,
I noticed that. From experience in the industry, I'll tell you magnet wire coating, HAPT, is a bitch. Most times, mechanical methods are employed, scraping, sanding, grinding, etc. Or the right combination of heat and pressure as used on small motor commutators. But I'd look for a different wire coating to start with.
Regards,
bi
Bistander
Thanks for comment and opinion
Here itsu keeps at the work
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg86416;topicseen#msg86416 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg86416;topicseen#msg86416)
Respectfully
Chet K
Now more fabrication and some data emerging
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg86527;topicseen#msg86527 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg86527;topicseen#msg86527)
Parts and pieces come together
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87110;topicseen#msg87110 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87110;topicseen#msg87110)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5IeLHGW7Qco&feature=youtu.be (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5IeLHGW7Qco&feature=youtu.be)
Some explanations of operation and
How it's done
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87228;topicseen#msg87228 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87228;topicseen#msg87228)
Much focus back onto the issues with building and designing such unique experiments/investigations
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87482;topicseen#msg87482 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87482;topicseen#msg87482)
With gratitude
Chet K
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.725 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.725)
Much going on ,
IMO
An absolute privilege to watch and learn .
With
Gratitude
Chet K
-75DB spikes ( notches?) point to ? https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87871;topicseen#msg87871 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg87871;topicseen#msg87871)
Honing in on spikes and ....what is the "dB" source or relevance ?
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg88059;topicseen#msg88059 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg88059;topicseen#msg88059)
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg88376;topicseen#msg88376 (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3924.msg88376;topicseen#msg88376)
Update