Hi,
here is a nice video to see,
how hydrogen must be fed into a combustion engine:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1400360016821042640
Great video link. This almost makes me wonder if HHO delivery couldn't be regulated by using standard or slightly modified fuel injectors. Hmmm. Wheels turning.........
I thought you just run a hose to the air intake
The above video is if you are using pressurized hydrogen .
You can run a hose right to the air intake . But in an HHO Cell many people like to use the advantage of vacuum as you extract more HHO from water in an electrolyzer when under vacuum . So we look for the highest vacuum at idle and the highest at acceleration .
You really dont need alot of HHO at idle as the engine takes little fuel to idle. But some like to squeeze all the fuel millage they can get so this is the resign for the idle vacuum line.
The problem with this is the vacuum changes as you accelerate . So we are looking for where these changes are and how to tap them without causing Hydrogen to get into places it should not be.
ok cool. on another topic, did anyone find a cheap place on the net to find SS yet?
Quote from: IronHead on August 03, 2007, 11:07:33 PM
This is if you are using pressurized hydrogen .
Understood. Engine finds it's own air/fuel mixture by speed. Revs too high, mixture leans out. Ignition timed at or near TDC mitigates heat buildup even when leaned way out. It still makes me wonder about possibile application to HHO on demand. I'll let the subconscious work on it now overnight and see what it comes up with in the morning. Cheers.
ZFF
Engine on 100% HHO . The first thing to take into consideration is that when burning HHO there is little time for heat to migrate as HHO burn so fast. The engine will and does run much cooler on HHO gas. If you can produce that much HHO. The way I have found to control it is electronics . Large programmable PWM (48330 Motor Controller) with pot on the throttle along with TPS connected to the ECM listed below . Start the low point at lets say 20 amps and the full throttle at 100 amps or whatever might be required always having pressure build just above required to run the engine, an accumulator .
With full on HHO you would produce enough HHO to pressurize so in this case you would inject the HHO with injectors and controller . This system would also control timing curves via crank trigger or other. The best thing I have found to do all of this is . http://www.megasquirt.info/
This is just the way I do it and not the end all be all.
I have a tendency to over build everything.
Keep on it , it can be done
IronHead
If pure HHO runs cooler, what all the crap about SS valves, ceramic coating the pistons and cylinders, etc? Is it just that? Crap?
yup pretty much. I thought the same at one time, but there is no need for ceramic coating or stainless exhaust . People thought the water content was so high you needed SS but this is not true .How much water do you blow out the tailpipe that was sitting in the pips all night . . Ceramic was done by BMW because they thought that Hydrogen burning at such a high temp would cause melt down but did not consider with high O2 content the burn time would not allow migration.
I would do SS valves as the valve do take abit of heat on there thin edge .Other than that there is no need for all the other stuff. Again this would be for pure H and air or HHO. HHO is much more powerful and faster burning. with just H you do lose some power over gasoline , and the temps are abit higher. Some report up to 15%to 25% power lose. With HHO that would be a 20+% increase in power and much lower heat.
Many people are now reporting with the larger S-Cell installed having a n increase they can feel although there have been no dyno test I know of yet. There will be some reports soon from people I have been working with through email coming to the HHO thread talking about results.
IronHead
how much would that be in MPG. This company can get a 45% mpg increase, apparently. I was almost going to buy from hydrogen-boost.com until I saw that the device itself only attchieves about a 12% increase, and the rest is the driving habbits and matanence. This co. I don't see any dicliamers like that, they say in their FAQ "This is a simple "bolt-on" solution." I hope so
http://www.chechfi.ca/sotesti.htm
wow ! these company's are coming outa the wood work.It is about time.
All I can say is it seems to be working. HHO is in the market to stay.
For those that are not able to build such a thing.
I would reseach the company well and even give them a call ,they might
have a nice drop in solution for you .
Back to the topic, I've been playing with various configurations of feeding just ahead of the butterfly in the intake ductwork. At right angles to the air flow with a wedge cut facing downstream, 3/8" ID tube, best vacuum at WOT, 6000 RPM is 0.3" Hg.
Best vacuum overall has a right angle fitting in the tube going into the duct facing downstream toward the plenum, then a small section of tubing into a funnel just a bit larger than 1/2 the diameter of the duct at the mouth. Any larger than that I believe would restrict air flow too greatly. Same throttle and RPM, ~1.25" Hg.
There are no leaks. The system is sound. If anyone has any hard data on the vacuum signals they are getting by accurate measurement at this feed point, please share them with us here. Thanks.
ZFF
Just a quick FYI, with a 3/8" tube in my Honda plenum duct, wedge cut facing the butterfly, I am pulling about 6" of water. Not sure what the relation is to mercury. I'm guessing it's pretty close to the 0.3" mercury I barely see on my vacuum guage. Today I am building a venturi to suspend inside the duct made from 1" ID and 3/4" ID pvc glued inside each other and filed out by hand. I hope to have some accurate comparison data for you in a few days.
ZFF
Inducting Hydrogen thru the air intake seems like it wuld cause the same kinda problems asocitated with water injection.This site here has alot of informatiom about water injection and I think wuld be a more reliable soltution to place the Hydrogen in with the best water injection configuration to esstablish a decent bennifit from actually use'n it but ya never know till ya try or can find somebody that has and can prove it.http://www.enginerunup.com/shop.php/pictures/i_9.html
I think someone else mentioned it, but is it possible to use the fuel injection rails to introduce the hydroxy into the engine? I want to try as much as possible to introduce the hydroxy into the engine of the cars I am working with. I have a '90 Dynasty that currently just needs me to replace some fuel lines that lead to the rails from the main fuel lines and a '90 Grand Am that I need to find an engine for.
Quote from: Draco Rylos on August 13, 2007, 04:50:27 PM
I think someone else mentioned it, but is it possible to use the fuel injection rails to introduce the hydroxy into the engine? I want to try as much as possible to introduce the hydroxy into the engine of the cars I am working with. I have a '90 Dynasty that currently just needs me to replace some fuel lines that lead to the rails from the main fuel lines and a '90 Grand Am that I need to find an engine for.
I too would like to know if anyone has done this. I doubt they would flow enough volume though. Seems to me that you would have to accumulate hydrogen alone under pressure to mix with air and/or O2.
I know that under normal conditions, the fuel rails are under high fluid pressure which causes the injectors to spray the fuel like they do. Most people that have been experimenting with hydroxy have been getting lower pressures from their cells. Then they use the vacuum to draw the hydroxy into the cylinders. There is an inherent danger of using the fuel rails though, because of the hydrogen could leak out of the rail when the engine is not running and cause explosive gases to build up under the hood. That seems to be one downside that I have thought about when trying to figure out how to run an engine using the fuel rails and fuel injectors. The injectors would probably have to be modified as well to get enough gas into the cylinder to maintain the engine RPMs. I have also seen some files that have pressure cutoff switches that turn the cell off when the cell reaches a certain pressure, sometimes low pressures sometimes higher pressures.
Hi ZFF,
I too tried to reply to your latest EFIE mods on Youtube (posted today - Sat. 1st Sept 2007), I think the problem lies in a Javascript error on the page - maybe they wrote for IE7 but forgot to test it on other browsers like IE6/Firefox 2 etc.
Its quite amazing that such a small amout of HHO in the mix can effect the oxygen sensor output so much, was it about 500mV without and 600mV with HHO.
If you add HHO into the fuel directly before it gets to the injectors, surely this will cause an air lock and mis-inject of fuel.
How about passing the HHO through an air stone into the fuel so that the HHO is disolved into the fuel - if that is possible. Maybe similar to the Geet process.
I suppose if you can get the hydrogen and oxygen atoms to bind with the petroleum molecules then you have a fuel that burns cleanly, creates less heat and more importantly, greater downward force on the piston.
After all, if the fuel was to burn very very slowly then the piston would probably not move at all.
Regards
Rob
Or perhaps inject the HHO with a T just befor the fuel pump so it is on the low pressure side, is drawn in and presurized to be delivered with the fuel. I am also wondering if the o2 extenders theat pull the sensor out of the exhaust streem work to control the signal or is the computer chip better?
Thanks
Rickter
Nice Idea but the pump will cavitate That is unless your talking about diaphram pump Chet
I think the best bet while running a HHO gasoline mix to inject the HHO into the intake. Reasons being is, HHO being in a gaseous state mixes easier with other gases(in this case, Oxygen) where as it doesn't mix so easily with a liquid and could cause pockets of HHO resulting in a unstable burn where one burn has more or less HHO or gasoline than another burn. Also I'm pretty sure that no HHO cell produces more pressure than any vehicles fuel pump so if your try injecting the HHO into the gas line between the pump and injector rails your probably going to get more gasoline in your HHO line than HHO in your engine.
I believe fuel pumps run upwards of 55psi and trying to run a hydrogen cell that high is suicide making injecting HHO into the intake your most reliable, safest and therefore your best bet. probably the same for trying to run straight HHO and no gasoline. unless you could retrofit the current injectors to inject HHO instead, but even still i think you'd see better performance from the vacuum of your intake which is suppose to help your cell create more HHO in return.
So if i understood correctly...people have been running straight HHO (no gasoline) into there engines with no need to replace parts with stainless steel?? even exhaust?? i am going to have nightmares once i try gettin my engine to run on straight HHO, i can see myself prying off the head and seeing nothing but rust. anyone know of a site where they have documented fairly extensive tests with both HHO/gasoline mixes and straight HHO?
i think, the easiest mothod to prevent rust, instead of coating your engine internals with ceramic meterial, witch would be expensive, maybe we could switch back to gasoline for the last couple of minutes to dry everything up.... instead of having a "turbo timer" that runs the engine too cool off after the car is shut off maybe we could have a hydrogen timer to run the car on gas for a pre detemined amount of time to eleviate any concerns with rust... what???
Hello all,
I have been searching the net for a calculation I am trying to make. I have found some calculators, but I would like for someone to verify the numbers. I hope someone can help.
I am trying to get how many liters/minute of gas come out of a pipe with .062 diameter inches at 5 PSI. I'm not concerned with the length of the pipe or the smoothness of the walls. I'm just looking for the volume one could expect out of this setup.
I didn't know where else to put this question.
Thank you
put one hose in a bucket of water under a 2 liter bottle filled with water, then use a stop watch to see how long it takes
@vdubdipr
Yes I understand how to measure HHO output as you described. I am looking for a validation of the amount that should be produced at 5 PSI described in my previous post. I suppose I should tell you why this is important to me. A video I saw on youtube showed a 5 HP engine idling on straight hydrogen supplied from a tank. The narrator commented that the gas was fed into the engine directly into the intake (there was no carburetor). There was 5 PSI coming out of the end of the feed tube which had been reduced at the end to .062 diameter. This is a good benchmark for knowing how much gas needs to be produced to run an engine.
Thank you
Last summer I tested a small electrolysis cell that produced quite little amount HHO. No difference in the engine sound/tone was noticed when I powered the cell. So I attached it to my -87 Mazda 929 2.0i. No pulseing or nothing, just straight to battery via a relay.
After a 5 days the engine broke, bearing plate between the crankshaft and piston rod melted, because there was no oil! :)
No oil leakage either, so it was weird... ???
Now I saw a comment on YouTube that if the ignition is not retarded, this will happen. HHO will be ignited and burned before the piston get's to the top dead center, trying to push the piston backwards so to speak... This is true ofcourse, cause the HHO burns much faster than gasoline, that must be ignited early.
But, is it true that this (not retarding ignition) can cause the oil to burn/consume much faster???
This was quite expensive experiment since machining cost ~400€ and other parts ~150€.... :P
I will make bigger cell with Mayer pulsing power source soon, this time I'll adjust the ignition :)
Some pics ...
http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfTwkqax-kkJxyDDjvt4kLQKgPq3eo7FOzuE07ZYJH_P5DuBbYAy2UtgzYK0QyfjT-c/mazda01.jpg (http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfTwkqax-kkJxyDDjvt4kLQKgPq3eo7FOzuE07ZYJH_P5DuBbYAy2UtgzYK0QyfjT-c/mazda01.jpg)
http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfSo-IEwsEGp6STlfQ5J7SPSkV1i0leMJwyWNwvd1GWMEpMZHfFHSz1lRvC1tddUPIo/mazda929-2.0i-motor.jpg (http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfSo-IEwsEGp6STlfQ5J7SPSkV1i0leMJwyWNwvd1GWMEpMZHfFHSz1lRvC1tddUPIo/mazda929-2.0i-motor.jpg)
http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfQzemGPS33sqaXDMtrus3ymIgFGCsoXafcrxmnPy5d_CO12sWpIkp03OcVnM3IRf2Q/mazda-crankshaft.jpg (http://mfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com/y1pddlMuCifWfQzemGPS33sqaXDMtrus3ymIgFGCsoXafcrxmnPy5d_CO12sWpIkp03OcVnM3IRf2Q/mazda-crankshaft.jpg)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pddlMuCifWfQKSeh0JKehmmfmS8-pieFUb2trQyVdXKHub081ckhLzoAEECvhsNz_eCMoIlupRQk%2FIMG_2568.JPG&hash=8991421c60f08ef77c8c417c9e3c4c32c7b07963)
@joemumu
Here is a calculator that can be used I think. It tells that flow rate is 4.27 litres/minute (261 in^3 / minute) or (0.151 ft^3 / minute)
I'm not sure but this is what it says, if the pipe length is 100mm (3.93in). If the length increases, flow rate goes down.
Here is the calculator:
http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/airflow/index.htm (http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/airflow/index.htm)
oh sorry, ive seen the same w/ the john deere and also wanted to do that. so i built a cell that would hold up to pressure because i couldnt think of a way to put it under pressure later, my cell can hold 135 psi but i got it up to 27 psi and then thought if a diesel engine uses heat from compressed air at 145 ish psi to ignite diesel gas i should stop so i did, figuring hydroxy is alot more unstable. i just havent had the money to create that much hho since then, because well, the walleyes are running right now so that where all my spending money goes..fishing
@sulake
Thank you for verifying those numbers. It seems as though it would take almost 5 liters/min to keep a 5HP engine running at idle. If these numbers are correct it seems as though we'll be running HHO supplementing petroleum use at the moment. To me, this is still a viable add on, as Zerofossilfuel reported a 20% increase in gas mileage. If I recall correctly he was producing 1.74 l/min with what seemed to be a fairly compact fuel cell. If you haven't seen his videos on youtube, I suggest you check them out. He has amassed a great deal of knowledge and shares data freely with us all.
Sorry to hear about your engine. IMHO I would be skeptical of the damage being blamed on the HHO alone. 5 days doesn't seem like much time to do that damage. Is your engine computer controlled? The condition you described would cause preignition as you said. The computer would retard the timing with the signal it gets from the knock sensor. If your vehicle is equipped with O2 sensor(s) the signal to the computer would make it richen the fuel to compensate for the extra O2 it sensed.
The no oil thing is really goofy. How many miles/km does the engine have? Has anyone seen this before?
There is a wealth of information on this site. How long have you had your current fuel cell in operation? Or how long would you estimate it has been under power and producing HHO? I'm sure someone will be able to help you figure out why your HHO production seems low as well as any other issues you might encounter. It takes some time to condition the plates. They seem to produce more HHO after extended use. Good luck.
QuoteNow I saw a comment on YouTube that if the ignition is not retarded, this will happen. HHO will be ignited and burned before the piston get's to the top dead center, trying to push the piston backwards so to speak... This is true ofcourse, cause the HHO burns much faster than gasoline, that must be ignited early.
<a href="http://premium.hotlinkfiles.com/files/1195962_wjfdv/Chapter10_Automotive_Systems.pdf"> Chapter 10_Automotive_Systems <a/> check out pages 10-55 thru 10-57 it explains well why you need to delay your ignition. i find it hard to say that if your running a HHO and Gasoline mix to blame it on the HHO itself, trying to run straight HHO in a engine without adjusting your timing would surely ruin an engine quickly.
it takes a sec to load, it's a big pdf
QuoteAfter a 5 days the engine broke, bearing plate between the crankshaft and piston rod melted, because there was no oil!Ã,Â
No oil leakage either, so it was weird...
@sulake, it is possible that the increased and more rapid combustion damaged a piston ring, especially if your engine was igniting the fuel just before or at TDC (top dead center) did your car burn some oil and produce smoke once you added the cell or before you added the cell? did you notice any oil in the radiator fluid? It is also possible that the added combustion blew a seal or gasket and leaked the oil onto the ground while you were driving it, but if your engine didn't leak the oil out onto the ground and you weren't burning it then something doesn't match up, cause 3 or so quarts of oil doesn't just disappearÃ, :)
Hi All, I hope that i am posting a remark in the right way, a bit new to all this if you will excuse any mistakes please.
I Live in South Africa and we have been hit with the largest fuel price jump in history, and are due to have another this month. Petrol (gas) is now R9.15 a litre, that's about $4.75 a gallon. I have always studied (where possible without the internet before '95) about free energy, i started before Mr EV Gray passed away and was quite surprised to hear of Mr S Meyer's passing. what's going on?..... I would like to ask these questons to the whole forum if possible and would value each and every view and will try to answer each one. This is bigger than the people that are trying to squash it.
I was building a compressed air motor in the 80's without much success, Money was the main issue, the secondary is that you try to make a living before you can make money. this led to my shelving of the plan before completion.
this has led me to the Hydrogen models that you guys are on about.
I have purchased plans for the Run your car on water by Power, have read and got plans for fuel cells by Boyce and am deciding what method to follow,
Boyce uses multiple cells in the electrode section and uses the coil to alter the pulse length and steps up to a 3 phase system, Power uses a coil in the generator, what is the gain or loss between the two, Power's system generates Ortho and Para Hydrogen but Boyce only discusses the generation of Hydroxy gas, are we talking about the same thing here or not. does Boyce's system create the two and use collectively, as Power's system explains the Ortho hydrogen as the fuel and the Para Hydrogen as the Octane boosting.( which can both be adjusted for different driving conditions.)
Stanley Meyer uses 6 SS electrodes in the generator but does not use a coil in the electronics or in the generator.
Then everything was becoming clear and i started reading about the Joe Cell, what the......
Hydrogen fuel cells are starting to make sense and someone comes out with this marvel, what must we do, build fuel cells or build Joe Cells?....
Back to hydrogen generation.
Will each Type of generator generate enough hydrogen, (para, Ortho or hydroxy) to run the motor vehicle without the need for any petroleum fuel?
In Diesel motors, what is the retarding amount required? diesel motors ignite the fuel under pressure at 8-10 degrees BTDC. the ignition to explosion delay is about 16 - 18 degrees meaning that the hydrogen gas will explode when the piston is still at the BTDC position and not yet at ATDC, How are you guys getting the timing right in the diesel injection system.
When i asked what happened to the O2 that is being generated by electrolysis i was told that it became aluminium oxide and sank to the bottom of the generator, is this true and where does the aluminium come from to oxidise.
Are there any other plans out there
And please, I will appreciate any answers
Regards
Andy
@ EnergymadAndy
I am still very new to the electronics of how these more complex fuel cells work and not yet created one cause i am still in the process of researching them so i can't give much info on your first questions.
As for your question about adjusting your ignition...each vehicle make model and year are different as you go from older to newer years you go from cars with distributors to cars with electrical timing ignition. The first being a easier way of changing your cars timing and ignitions by adjusting your distributer, and the later being harder but more accurate and hardly ever needing to be changed, but i believe the way you can easily change the newer models is to purchase a conversion kit and hook up a laptop or computer to the cars computer.
I don't if you've heard but i guess Europe made a car than runs on only compressed air and there finally bringing it to the U.S. it can get to around 150 miles on one tank and theres a option to be able to add a small 2-stroke motor and be able to go 600 miles off a 5gallon gas tank. not 100% sure on those figures but i know there somewhat close. kinda interesting though :D
Thanks Jonny Q
will check it out but I must say I am more interested in the HHO system at the moment
gathering the materials, just looking for the right method,
No info to add for me?
Thanks
Andy
The Stanley Meyers replication has seemed to catch my eye. You get a good amount of HHO gas produced with a small amount of amps if it's done right. Thats the style of cell i plan on making, i ordered the parts to make the D14 circuit to go along with it. that is whats pulses the amps and frequency to the electrodes which is suppose to increase the gas production while keeping the amps the same.
Not sure if read the post on this site about building that replication but here it is anyway. P.S. its a long post ;) <a href="http://www.overunity.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=943bd11fe93201a7eb0a428c699a5aa4&topic=3079.msg45012#msg45012"> Stanley Meyers replication<a/>
Quote@sulake, it is possible that the increased and more rapid combustion damaged a piston ring, especially if your engine was igniting the fuel just before or at TDC (top dead center) did your car burn some oil and produce smoke once you added the cell or before you added the cell? did you notice any oil in the radiator fluid?
@JonnyQ
No there was no oil in the radiator fluid and the piston rings where good so I put the old ones back. I couldnââ,¬â,,¢t see any seal damage or leakage spot. This engine has about 205000miles behind so it consumes some oil normally too. But not this much, newer. It must be the faulty ignition time that caused extra load before TDC.
Anyway, the engine is now working like a new. Ready for new experimentsââ,¬Â¦
I will try to study the Mayer cell and to test if I can get the cell work like it suppose to. In a resonance state where the gas production is in maximum.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmfiekw.tuk.livefilestore.com%2Fy1pddlMuCifWfT3k7TM5CY-MxGDdfRdEF2kcEKLhTFUbg9-wDO3HZpnSh6WVOiD-kpW4LiA2OZLclY%2Fmayer_resonant_cavity.jpg&hash=6a15a862211ab33bf8bc3359c4ff1f5a06f88434)