In order to focus the development of the Luling engine as much as possible and the use of the highest quality (metal) materials, I accepted the suggestion of Ufopolitics to start my own thread. My specialty is 3D printing and I would like to get the Luling motor working mechanically using this technique. Whether it will work we'll see, in theory, I don't see a problem that it wouldn't be possible. The great advantage of 3D printing is that the files can be blind printed elsewhere in the world and the machine assembled by people who have little or no understanding of technology. Even if it was just a plastic toy, no problem. Feel free to build with me but please keep your focus on the mechanically driven Luling motor.
This is where I am now. Many attempts behind my back. The push pin movement is still too slow. I also think my magnets are too weak. I have an eye on a mechanism that might work, although it will need to be designed on the spinning disk. All parts are printed with PETG. Perhaps this could later be upgraded to plastics that are much stronger once proof of concept is achieved. I try to work modularly in small parts as much as possible. If something has to be done again, it doesn't take that much time to print. The bottom plate is made to properly align the magnet units. Lots of work to do, but it doesn't matter.
Hello and Welcome Knovos!!
I am glad you have chosen to make your own Thread here!!
It will be good if you could make a small video, showing rotor hand spinning plus alignment on Neutralization, first just spinning freely without any actuator on.
First thing you must make sure, is that you have found the sweet spot for neutral gap, and tightly adjusted.
I see you have like 1/4 inch magnets, I have those too, they have a pretty small Magnetic Field, which you could easily view with a magnetic Viewing Film, it will serve you for guidance on the gap you should have, in order to obtain best results.
Normally I believe the ratio to separate magnets is somewhere around their size (I have 1/2 inch cubes, 52 grade, and I obtain best results, or best pushing force from repulsion at around 12-15 mm distance.)...
So, I believe you will need around 1/4 inch separation on the attraction stator.
It is great that you can also adjust the repulse magnet gap at stator.
I will be assisting you in case you have any questions or doubts.
Regards
Ufopolitics
Quote from: knovos on February 18, 2022, 12:00:40 PM
This is where I am now. Many attempts behind my back. The push pin movement is still too slow. I also think my magnets are too weak. I have an eye on a mechanism that might work, although it will need to be designed on the spinning disk. All parts are printed with PETG. Perhaps this could later be upgraded to plastics that are much stronger once proof of concept is achieved. I try to work modularly in small parts as much as possible. If something has to be done again, it doesn't take that much time to print. The bottom plate is made to properly align the magnet units. Lots of work to do, but it doesn't matter.
Knovos- I feel your pain. I got like 3 boxes like the one pictured full of parts that either didn't work quite right or from abandoned ideas.
Keep us posted and I look forward to the STL files when you get something..
Thank you very much!
It is too early for a video. The turning disk is way too wobbly and that's what you warned about, this must be really good. I don't want to use bigger bearings because the size needs to be as standard as possible. Special sizes prevent people from building a motor because they then have to order and wait a long time. But if I manage to make a good base, I'll come back with a video.
Quote from: floodrod on February 18, 2022, 01:39:26 PM
Knovos- I feel your pain. I got like 3 boxes like the one pictured full of parts that either didn't work quite right or from abandoned ideas.
Keep us posted and I look forward to the STL files when you get something..
Hahaha ;D There is another guy out there sitting on a mountain of plastic. Yea sooner or later there will be STL's all over the place for sharing 8)
Quote from: knovos on February 18, 2022, 01:44:08 PM
Thank you very much!
It is too early for a video. The turning disk is way too wobbly and that's what you warned about, this must be really good. I don't want to use bigger bearings because the size needs to be as standard as possible. Special sizes prevent people from building a motor because they then have to order and wait a long time. But if I manage to make a good base, I'll come back with a video.
Yeah, a wobbly disc rotor will throw out your neutralization gaps!
Try with a much wider center shaft, even using a couple of additional smaller discs bolted to rotor center, in order to thicken the rotating inner walls with shaft (may add some more friction though)...this two I think may help on wobbling...
If you are using small bearings, then you could also add a top bracket so shaft is turning on two points of rotation, upper and lower.
Cheers
Ufopolitics
Greetings knovos,
First let me say that I fully understand how Ufo's motor works (well done Ufo!).
I've been thinking about maybe trying a 3D printed version myself for a while and I wonder; what would you guys think about using a camshaft operated mechanism to deflect the magnet? Like a high performance ICE with a roller 'lifter' for minimum resistance, push rod and maybe even a rocker arm. We only need to move it a few mm, right?
I'm thinking the advantages would be that the spring could return some of it's force to the rotating assembly after passing TDC of the cam lobe, and the lobe being close to the center shaft would minimize power loss from leverage compared to an actuator at the edge of the rotor.
Regards,
Cadman
Quote from: Cadman on February 19, 2022, 09:04:12 AM
I've been thinking about maybe trying a 3D printed version myself for a while and I wonder; what would you guys think about using a camshaft operated mechanism to deflect the magnet? Like a high performance ICE with a roller 'lifter' for minimum resistance, push rod and maybe even a rocker arm. We only need to move it a few mm, right? I'm thinking the advantages would be that the spring could return some of it's force to the rotating assembly after passing TDC of the cam lobe, and the lobe being close to the center shaft would minimize power loss from leverage compared to an actuator at the edge of the rotor.
For what I understand what a camshaft is, the movement will be too slow. The push pin must go very vast like milliseconds if possible (a spike!).
If I understand wrong please post a picture to show what you mean.
I'm working on this idea now.
You can see an animation of this here:
Third mechanism in this vid at 00:54
https://youtu.be/X4g8FTn2iQo (https://youtu.be/X4g8FTn2iQo)
Quote from: knovos on February 19, 2022, 09:14:34 AM
For what I understand what a camshaft is, the movement will be too slow. The push pin must go very vast like milliseconds if possible (a spike!).
If I understand wrong please post a picture to show what you mean.
I don't think of it as milliseconds, but degrees of rotation. Even Ufo's pneumatic actuator isn't instantaneous.
I have to leave for a while but I can work up a 2D drawing and post it later if you think it would help. It's just in the idea stage so it won't be a ready to build assembly.
Could someone be so kind enough to post a video in this thread demonstrating the operating principle?
From a video I saw in another thread, it would seem the main operation works by chopping 2 similar flux fields quickly and timed right to utilize sliding / repulsion to create rotation. Would this be correct? How does "magnetic shielding" come into play?
After watching the video, and since I have time between projects, I whipped up a simple design on that principle (but a little less complicated) which I am pretty sure I can get working.
4 magnets at 90 degrees from each other are on the rotor. Another identical piece with the same magnet arrangement will be attached to a reciprocator. Utilizing a timing circuit, the reciprocator will chop in and out 4 times per revolution to kick the stator into rotation via sliding repulsion. I understand the other thread strictly prohibited input power, but I'm going that route for now.
What different operating parameters does the Luling magnet motor that is being designed here have?
Quote from: floodrod on February 19, 2022, 09:29:11 AM
Could someone be so kind enough to post a video in this thread demonstrating the operating principle?
https://youtu.be/ytCVQ-OZZmM
Quote from: knovos on February 19, 2022, 10:06:50 AM
https://youtu.be/ytCVQ-OZZmM
Thanks for that. Yeah- that's the same video I referenced. Seems I had the operation backwards. The inward stroke does not create the rotation in that demo- it's the separation from the attraction fields which are slightly off centered which causes it.
Quote from: floodrod on February 19, 2022, 10:19:36 AM
Thanks for that. Yeah- that's the same video I referenced. Seems I had the operation backwards. The inward stroke does not create the rotation in that demo- it's the separation from the attraction fields which are slightly off centered which causes it.
Hello Floodrod,
I am who built the model...as I have explained how it works on the video.
It would be VERY important that you all FIRST understand the MAIN Principle involved here:
Quoteit's the separation from the attraction fields which are slightly off centered which causes it.
Negative, I am not going to say you are 100% wrong, but that is not
the main force propulsing the rotor.
I have measured (with a Digital Push-Pull Gauge) the Repulsion Force, exactly at 180º apart, and it is mainly this force what generates rotation.
The separation of the Attract Field, as you said, since Bisector at rotor is slightly off, or away towards the rotation sense, it will cause "some" force, but very slightly, and only for very short timing.
The Main Concept here is FIRST about Balancing Magnetic Forces of opposed origin (Attract-Repulse) exactly at 180º apart. And here is where "the magic is"...So, the way this works is to WEAKEN one of the Field Forces, in order that the opposed one will gain FULL FORCEI mean guys, this principle is SO SIMPLE, so easy to understand, that I really don't see the point trying to complicate it with "cutting flux" or any other "theoretical assumptions" which have NOT being verified like I have done by now.
Now, how do I weaken my Attraction Field Force?
By setting the Attract GAP FURTHER AWAY from other Source (Rotor)
Once that I do that, the Repulsion will gain FULL FORCE...and the way it works is perfectly as simplest MATHEMATICAL DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL EQUATION.
The longer the separation distance of the Attract Field, the HIGHER and STRONGER the Repulsion would become.
And this could be measured to the exact Newtons/ mm Distance Travel with the Force Gauge and a "gig" you will need to make.
Note: It is pretty hard to achieve Neutralization perfect balancing of TWO MAGNETS, so staring with a FOUR MAGNETS setup, without getting first the "touch" to do it with only two magnets, simple...does not make any sense to me, honestly!!
And btw, I have tried "Magnetic Shielding" with the expensive metals required... And NOPE, it does NOT work...Magnetic DRAG from a Magnet to Steel, is still present.
And Guys, I am just trying for you NOT TO WASTE your time building useless stuff...or going the wrong paths...I want you to succeed all the way...
Cheers
Ufopolitics
Quote from: Cadman on February 19, 2022, 09:04:12 AM
Greetings knovos,
First let me say that I fully understand how Ufo's motor works (well done Ufo!).
I've been thinking about maybe trying a 3D printed version myself for a while and I wonder; what would you guys think about using a camshaft operated mechanism to deflect the magnet? Like a high performance ICE with a roller 'lifter' for minimum resistance, push rod and maybe even a rocker arm. We only need to move it a few mm, right?
I'm thinking the advantages would be that the spring could return some of it's force to the rotating assembly after passing TDC of the cam lobe, and the lobe being close to the center shaft would minimize power loss from leverage compared to an actuator at the edge of the rotor.
Regards,
Cadman
Hello Cadman!!
Long time friend!! (if you are the same member as in EF)
Thanks, and I am glad you do understand it perfectly!!
You do have a pretty great idea, as all you have said is right...
I said before that a Cam-Cam follower will not give the desired Spike over Time versus Distance of Magnet traveled...I did before a Graph to Knovos, explaining it why...
And do not get me wrong, a Cam-Cam follower may work as long as Timing is set correctly, meaning, the separation can NOT start when Magnets BISECTORS are perfectly aligned, or even WORST, if separation starts BEFORE Perfect alignment, this will cause a reverse force opposing rotation sense!!
A Cam-Cam follower may work if timed right, HOWEVER, to start motor you will need to "shrink" or "sharpen" that "Smooth Slope" generated by Cam and Actuator or follower...
That means you will need to spin that rotor very fast before it starts to "fire up" and keep a constant rotation...And the simplest way to do that is to add a small cord, wrapped around rotor shaft and pulling it, like you start a small lawnmower or weed eater ICE.
Now the HUGE difference is when you have achieved a very sharp response stroke, traveling a big distance at separation, with a very short, smooth "touch" of your "Triggering" mechanism.
When you have achieved that, then, it would take just ONE single turn, and your motor will start right away!!
Right now I am working on a setup, where by just pushing around 2mm at trigger (INPUT) , it will produce a very fast BACK & FORTH movement of around 15 mm backwards and then, iso facto, immediately, it will kick back 15mm to "Reset positioning" or back to "Neutral ON"...at OUTPUT.
And you can achieve that as well, it is based on Lever-Fulcrum advantages, roller levers, and combinations of both springs types, compression and tension (as return springs).
Regards Friend!!
Ufopolitics
Quote from: knovos on February 19, 2022, 09:22:06 AM
I'm working on this idea now.
You can see an animation of this here:
Third mechanism in this vid at 00:54
https://youtu.be/X4g8FTn2iQo (https://youtu.be/X4g8FTn2iQo)
Hi Knovos!!
Yes, I like that idea!!
Point is, you will have to measure the initial force (Input) required to push or "charge" that mechanism, and then compare it with your magnet force developed at the traveled distance it will generate.
And this is it guys!!...it is about simple comparison of forces, and if your mechanical input force is greater than magnet repulse force it will simply NOT work.
Now, remember there are ways to "trick" lowering the applied forces at input, using levers which reduce your force, by traveling a longer distance, but using much less force.
And here I will give you an example:
Say your magnet produces 20 Newtons of Force at approx 7mm of travel distance from Attract Stator Magnet...
Let say the mechanism that you developed -like shown here- needs like 30 Newtons of force to charge input spring...it does not look good here...BUT
Then, you use a 2:1 Ratio lever bracket where you will apply your trigger force at the longer side (2) and the shorter end of lever will connect and apply the force right at the Input spring.
Your result will cut your Input Force exactly at half of the 30 Newtons required, meaning, you will only need 15 Newtons to charge input spring...and vualá...you got it...it should run now.
The relation "Formula" to a very fast motor, is simple...the LESSER the Force required at Trigger or Input, the greater your Repulse Force would be, the Faster and Stronger your Motor will run.
Remember, your Input Force to Trigger your Mechanism will be "Your Motor Drag" opposing to rotation at every single stroke, and remember this triggering takes place TWICE per RPM.You need to plan all this in a 2D simple CAD...testing all your distances and strokes or turning rotations accurately.
Also you will need to first than anything,
measure your initial spring force, related to the distance traveled...it is very important to choose the right spring here...and only with a Digital Gauge like I have shown before, you could see the real data of all your setup...otherwise, you will only be "guessing" in your build model...and success is never guaranteed.
Cheers
Ufopolitics
PD: You will also will need to design a
Return mechanism, which recharges or "reloads" system automatically after discharge...
Quote from: Ufopolitics on February 19, 2022, 12:29:01 PM
Hello Floodrod,
I am who built the model...as I have explained how it works on the video.
It would be VERY important that you all FIRST understand the MAIN Principle involved here:
Negative, I am not going to say you are 100% wrong, but that is not the main force propulsing the rotor.
I have measured (with a Digital Push-Pull Gauge) the Repulsion Force, exactly at 180º apart, and it is mainly this force what generates rotation.
The separation of the Attract Field, as you said, since Bisector at rotor is slightly off, or away towards the rotation sense, it will cause "some" force, but very slightly, and only for very short timing.
The Main Concept here is FIRST about Balancing Magnetic Forces of opposed origin (Attract-Repulse) exactly at 180º apart. And here is where "the magic is"...
So, the way this works is to WEAKEN one of the Field Forces, in order that the opposed one will gain FULL FORCE
I mean guys, this principle is SO SIMPLE, so easy to understand, that I really don't see the point trying to complicate it with "cutting flux" or any other "theoretical assumptions" which have NOT being verified like I have done by now.
Now, how do I weaken my Attraction Field Force?
By setting the Attract GAP FURTHER AWAY from other Source (Rotor)
Once that I do that, the Repulsion will gain FULL FORCE...and the way it works is perfectly as simplest MATHEMATICAL DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL EQUATION.
The longer the separation distance of the Attract Field, the HIGHER and STRONGER the Repulsion would become.
And this could be measured to the exact Newtons/ mm Distance Travel with the Force Gauge and a "gig" you will need to make.
Note: It is pretty hard to achieve Neutralization perfect balancing of TWO MAGNETS, so staring with a FOUR MAGNETS setup, without getting first the "touch" to do it with only two magnets, simple...does not make any sense to me, honestly!!
And btw, I have tried "Magnetic Shielding" with the expensive metals required... And NOPE, it does NOT work...Magnetic DRAG from a Magnet to Steel, is still present.
And Guys, I am just trying for you NOT TO WASTE your time building useless stuff...or going the wrong paths...I want you to succeed all the way...
Cheers
Ufopolitics
Thank You. I reviewed the video slowly step by step and am now in understanding.
I am still going to finish my build, even though it is not the same. But I won't clog this thread with it. If I have anything worthy to show when done I will start my own.
I look forward to seeing updates from both you and Knovos.
Quote from: Ufopolitics on February 19, 2022, 12:52:22 PM
Hello Cadman!!
Long time friend!! (if you are the same member as in EF)
.........
And do not get me wrong, a Cam-Cam follower may work as long as Timing is set correctly, meaning, the separation can NOT start when Magnets BISECTORS are perfectly aligned, or even WORST, if separation starts BEFORE Perfect alignment, this will cause a reverse force opposing rotation sense!!
A Cam-Cam follower may work if timed right, HOWEVER, to start motor you will need to "shrink" or "sharpen" that "Smooth Slope" generated by Cam and Actuator or follower...
That means you will need to spin that rotor very fast before it starts to "fire up" and keep a constant rotation...
And the simplest way to do that is to add a small cord, wrapped around rotor shaft and pulling it, like you start a small lawnmower or weed eater ICE.
...
Hi Ufo! Yes that's me, I get around between here, OUR and EF. And yes a long time indeed!
I did a quick concept drawing and I can see everything you're saying. This one came up with 16 degrees to go from 0 to 3.5 mm. That could be reduced but not by much.
If I try this it will have to have a flywheel as well as a way to adjust the cam centerline timing, I think.
Remember the way they used to graph steam engine strokes? I can't remember what they called them, but what if you attached a degree paper to your rotor and a pen to your magnet and ran your motor to produce a stroke vs. rotation graph of the magnet. Well, that would be very interesting, but I don't seriously suggest you do that.
Good luck with your motor improvements! A lot of people are watching.
Regards,
Cadman
Quote from: Ufopolitics on February 19, 2022, 01:13:38 PM
Remember, your Input Force to Trigger your Mechanism will be "Your Motor Drag" opposing to rotation at every single stroke, and remember this triggering takes place TWICE per RPM.
Thank you Ufopolitics for all the advice. Everything is very clear to me. I ordered magnets the same size but N52's. I already saw in your video that mine are way too weak. I don't have measurement equipment for measuring forces in Newton or even a gauss meter. What I can do is make everything as light as possible, springs, slidings pushing forces whatever. There will be a lot of tweaking for sure. If it doesn't work I keep saying "then you are doing something wrong" the technique WORKS. In a week the magnets will be delivered, I will be back!
Quote from: Cadman on February 19, 2022, 03:18:36 PM
Hi Ufo! Yes that's me, I get around between here, OUR and EF. And yes a long time indeed!
I did a quick concept drawing and I can see everything you're saying. This one came up with 16 degrees to go from 0 to 3.5 mm. That could be reduced but not by much.
If I try this it will have to have a flywheel as well as a way to adjust the cam centerline timing, I think.
Remember the way they used to graph steam engine strokes? I can't remember what they called them, but what if you attached a degree paper to your rotor and a pen to your magnet and ran your motor to produce a stroke vs. rotation graph of the magnet. Well, that would be very interesting, but I don't seriously suggest you do that.
Good luck with your motor improvements! A lot of people are watching.
Regards,
Cadman
Hello Cadman,
That is great man, I know you are a heck of a builder, one of the best in EF, as Machinealive or Cornboy...!!
About your small cam concept is great, for the "triggering" or Input side, I mean, angles should be kept short and traveling distance also small for the Input...
However, the issue here is that it needs to be "amplified" or increased when it comes to the Magnet Distance retraction...and then 3.5mm is too short travel.
So, one of the ways I believe this can be solved in Mechanical Engineering is by the use of Levers, which also move within short angles.
I have achieved (in CAD up to now) from 2mm as Input of the trigger to 15mm of magnet travel distance (Output).
The second issue here, is the max force that it needs to be applied to separate magnet from the closest gap...However, according to my research and experimenting, the good news is that the MAX Force only needs to be applied for like 2-3mm.
Therefore I have ISOLATED different forces as first, the one to pull away magnet in first stage, around 2mm...then your triggering mechanism and travel longer distance would be easier to move back and forth...then ending with a Retur Spring, also in a separate configuration...
And the effect we are trying to recreate, replicate, achieve, is to be as close to the effect the pneumatic valve and piston generates...except, it will not have any external supply of nothing.
Regards friend!!
Ufopolitics
Hi Knovos & Ufo,
My main project is on hold due to eternal shipping so I'm making progress with this motor design, and materials for this are now on order. Simple roller cam actuated, snap action, full 15 mm trigger movement within 2 degrees rotation; triggering returns some energy to the rotation.
I don't want to clutter up your thread any further Knovos, so if my build starts to be viable I may ask Ufo for a thread.
Regards,
Cadman
Quote from: Cadman on February 21, 2022, 02:30:30 PM
I may ask Ufo for a thread.
Regards,
Cadman
Hello Cadman,
Great idea!!
You can go ahead and open a Thread, anytime you please my friend!
It would be great for references about your Diagrams, as it will show the progress...
Warm regards
Ufopolitics
This is the idea I've developed so far. I'm already building but the spike push mechanism (blue) still needs special attention. The red disk on the turntable is to determine the moment pushing the magnet. This red disc can therefore be turned and secured with a wing nut. Maybe also make a small dash division for the adjustment.
I designed the spiking mechanism open to see how it functions while spinning and to fix any problems. The red turndisk could also get a bearing to reduce friction.
Hello Knovos,
That looks good!!
Now, may I suggest you build your retracting mechanism(s) (Blue) away from where the magnets meet?
And I know you are using mainly plastic, but, Springs, and shafts are steel correct?
All steel surrounding fields, will interfere with the magnetic interactions, deviating field and causing to throw off your neutralization.
You could set blue on a side, or Higher above, then get actuator closer to border of rotor.
However, if you have all stainless steel shafts, nuts, bolts and Springs, meaning, all hardware-fasteners on blue mechanism, then it will not cause any interference and disregard my advice.
Regards
Ufopolitics
Only the yellow springs are made of metal the rest is all plastic.
Interference should not be a problem, but thanks for the warning I understand what you mean.
The plastic is PETG which is melted at 235C
From what I see now the plastic will be strong enough, but I don't know what happens if the RMPs go ski high :-)
Regards,
Knovos
Quote from: knovos on February 24, 2022, 04:05:45 PM
...but I don't know what happens if the RMPs go ski high :-)
Regards,
Knovos
Seriously, you should have a Knob which pulls backwards the attract magnet at Stator, and it overrides mechanism, before starting it...
By pulling back magnet it will kill neutralization...however, it will not stop it immediately...if your motor goes at pretty high RPM's... ;D
Regards
Ufopolitics
I built the engine but it still doesn't work. I'm still waiting for the stronger magnets. The spike mechanism is also far from working properly. I'm not really sure it's going to work, but I'm going to continue with it for now.
Thank you Ufopolitics for the great find of a better triggering mechanism at your own thread (making the mechanical Luling motor with metal parts). over here https://overunity.com/18946/lueling-magnet-motor-by-ufopolitics/msg564571/#new
There are several examples available on Thingiverse as a download like this one https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1504699
I have to print one to see how this exactly works and how to modify it for our goal. I like this one because it needs only a pen spring which should be available worldwide!
to be continued.
regards,
Knovos
Perhaps the kundel magnetic coupling could be a good alternative. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJu6IUlWzYI&t=163s
Quote from: floodrod on March 13, 2022, 11:22:21 AM
Perhaps the kundel magnetic coupling could be a good alternative. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJu6IUlWzYI&t=163s (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJu6IUlWzYI&t=163s)
Thanks but to difficult for me. Every idea or system needs to be redesigned to fit on the magnet motor.
I don't see that done easily.
Quote from: knovos on March 13, 2022, 12:34:00 PM
Thanks but to difficult for me. Every idea or system needs to be redesigned to fit on the magnet motor.
I don't see that done easily.
The locking riciprocation from the unidirectional rotation as shown by the electric drill looks like a turn key solution.
To see if this new piston system will work, I copied the drawing of Ufipolitics almost exactly. Finding the right springs is still a problem, but the 304 stainless steel springs look good ( I have to order them) First 3D print and see if there is enough strength. Maybe the small lever is too weak but there is an option to let it come from two sides, or scale everything up.
Hello Knovos,
Wow, nice and clean interpretation of that Piston concept!!
I see you have made it squared instead of a Cylindrical Piston...but it should work fine as well, just for you to start experimenting...until it works perfectly well.
There is a problem with the way you have set the Catch Lever-Trigger:
The Lever Catch hook MUST grab the Piston, NOT just the rear moving yellow part...otherwise the piston will be loose, freely moving, not locked in place.
For our application, we need the piston to be very solid in place when retracted, because the magnetic forces will kick it back when it is rotating., after passing the sticky point.
So, if Piston is loose, Neutralization will be lost when gap is spread by piston movement...and your Motor will not fire up!!
The BEST way to hook the Piston is right at its BOTTOM CENTER, but I see no problems doing that in your design...all you need is to set it right at center of the rear cap extrusion.
Then you need to make a hole on the rear yellow part so the lever can go through it, without touching it when moving it up-down.
EDIT-1 Or You could also grab Piston by the bottom of outer frame, then you do not need to go through yellow rear moving cap.
Related to the Spring...
This device works entirely on INERTIA FORCES (F)...So, all the Laws related to Inertia, where MASS IS NOT CHANGING, applies to it or:
F=mXA
Acceleration is given by the Spring Tension, plus the Traveled Distance multiplied by mass...remember, a longer traveled distance equals to more Time...and Accelerations= Velocity change over Time:
Edit 2 A= V final- V start / Time 1 - Time Final
or
Delta V divided Delta Time
This means that we must allow Piston to develop a nice velocity change in a short time, in order to gain more acceleration resulting in a greater Force
Meaning, your Piston needs to be pretty heavy (weight) related to spring tension.
If you have a plastic Piston, you could add some inner weights, preferably on the thicker part and center of it.
There are a huge variety of tension springs out there, i suggest to get first one which is easier to pull...just with your hands.
A too heavy springs to be spread apart, would require a much heavier weight at Piston...that is why I will build my piston in Steel.
But, basically both (spring and piston weight) are directly related to obtain higher Force.
On your design, I would make also a Front Outer Cap that could also be screwed on, just as the rear is build.
This is in order to be able to replace just the center piece to EXTENDED more, in case your device works, but it does not travel enough, and its force is too weak...then spring needs to be more tense or need to add more weight to piston...
Then I will suggest to use long screws (preferably stainless) with nuts-washers that pass by all three GREEN parts, Four, like you have, two upper and two lower...and make front cap also thick as rear one.
Realize that this END caps would be holding all the CONSTANT IMPACT, BANGING back and forth TWICE per RPM...so, the heavier you build this structure and main frame, the better.
Springs could be modified easily...by shortening it (reason I suggested to start with a softer spring)...to increase tension, by bending one circle at the desired distance where you feel pretty good tension, then with needle nose pliers bending it horizontally and cut it to leave the open hook shape...
Hope this helps
Regards
Ufopolitics
@Knovos,
One thing I have forgotten...
The Lever Catch Hook MuST BE at the very rear end of the Piston, just leaving a pretty thick and strong border where hook holds piston...
If you catch piston at center or further forward....hook will add friction when piston is going forward, so, the less surface of Piston that is in contact with hook the better.
And yes, we could also set another lever hook right on the top of Piston, which works linked to bottom one...so both open and close simultaneously...
I am also designing it in order that the rear moving cap extension pushes both levers linkages to FORCE the locking of piston.
But it is better not to complicate it more for Now...until you get it tested real good and happy with outcome...then it is running time!!
Regards
Ufopolitics
MORE ABOUT THE SPRINGS...
In my setup I used Four springs...However, to start with this... is better to start with TWO Springs, one upper and other lower...or sideways...or in Diagonal, but ALWAYS, apart at 180º, in order to BALANCE FORCES applied to piston AS ALSO the moving-pushing yellow plates not to angle then tend to get stock when sliding in tracks...
By adding more springs , even softer springs to this set up...you will be adding more force to your device...and so, your piston would need more mass-weight to be able to push enough tension on springs.
Then, for testing is better to start with lower parameters and adding more as testing forces increase...
HOWEVER, You need to know the EXACT Force required to pull apart your magnets, related to their spec's!!...Otherwise you will be "driving blindly"...
Every magnet, even same configurations and Spec's, have a varying Attraction Force...most of magnets you order on line have being tested very lightly...and they never have the same strength...of course...the variation between same magnets is not huge...However, for this Motor we do need to have an accurate measurement, whether for Neutralization or to eject magnets in attraction apart...
That is why I set my design to be able to ADJUST the GAP...which solves this issue on the Neutralization Stage...
However, on the setting of the Attract magnets mechanisms stage...we do not have a way to adjust Forces applied on Stator Magnets...and it is only on the Mechanism we are building, we can do that.
That is why I highly recommended the Digital Force Gauge...as it will also be used to measure your Springs Force, PLUS your Piston Force , MAINLY when going FORWARD!!
If your Piston does not have the enough force to pull magnet apart.. Your Motor simply will not run...
Or You could do it by Test and Fail, Test and Fail...until you hit the required force...but that is very time consuming, and materials wasted...
The choice is up to you... :)
Regards
Ufopolitics
Oh boy, while working on the prints and your advice I discovered that the yellow backplate could not move enough to the front because the lever hook itself blocked it. :(
I lowered it way more so there is now enough room for the yellow backplate to come forward but the swing is also very long now.
Thanks for all the remarks!
Let's move on.
regards,
Knovos.
Quote from: knovos on March 15, 2022, 10:17:48 AM
Oh boy, while working on the prints and your advice I discovered that the yellow backplate could not move enough to the front because the lever hook itself blocked it. :(
I lowered it way more so there is now enough room for the yellow backplate to come forward but the swing is also very long now.
Thanks for all the remarks!
Let's move on.
regards,
Knovos.
Hello Knovos, am sorry I did not noticed until this morning when I look closely at your setup...
Ok, To reduce the lever travel, you need to make the hook arm shorter, by getting the shaft where it pivots closer to Piston...
You may have to EXTEND DOWN your lower outer green case where lever-hook pivots...sorry!!
This way is much better as the force required to move the trigger (or longer lever on the other side of pivot point) will be much less (softer).
Also, the Hook size (height), try to make it as short as you could, however it must grab Piston well and solid... in order that your trigger travel will also be shorter...
You are doing great!!
Ufopolitics
My screenshot was not that good so you could not see it easily.
I did some more mods to make the swing short again.
The two hooks are grabbing more outside now
I can make the hook shorter but will look at it first how it works.
Ya, you trigger me again about the gauss meter.
When you are able to measure forces you know what you are doing.
I will take a look at Alie.
regards
Knovos
Yes, I see it clearly now!!
It looks great!!
I did your setup, plus I added a file where I will keep track...to answer with graphics...
I like the way you have the hook!!...it is double sided so it guarantees a very good grab-hooking of Piston.
Now a couple of suggestions... and look at my graph...
First I would use just two springs...and the BEST Position to set them is at Center of running Piston Shaft, in order that forces are distributed evenly...
Second, a reminder about Lever-Fulcrum laws written on graphic...D1 > D2
This is needed for softer, less force required for manipulation of trigger lever which connects to Rotor...
However, you could extend Trigger Level by adding an extra piece...
So, D2 or Hooker side lever should always be shorter than Trigger level D1.
Great job!!
P.D: Is NOT a Gauss Meter I was referring to...it is a Digital FORCE Scale!!!...to measure PHYSICAL FORCES on PULLING and PUSHING!!
EDIT 1:And also I am showing the Full Bolted outer housing as I have recommended...
As I am worried because of the banging back and forth...your screws to plastic will strip and come apart while running!!
PUSH-PULL DIGITAL FORCE SCALE 500 NEWTONS (https://www.ebay.com/itm/254757928597?hash=item3b50c17e95:g:4AQAAOSwWGBgwYXK)
Link above is from China...it is $49.00...or maybe you will find it cheaper and closer to you.
Believe me, you will need this tool to tune your Motor...for best performance, even if it runs and you are very happy...LOL.
Regards
Ufopolitics
GETTING YOUR TRIGGER SET.
Here is a graph of what you need at Trigger setup:
1- You need a MUCH SOFTER tension force spring than main Piston Spring as a Return Spring for Trigger.
2- Then You need a Trigger Lever STOP, in order to avoid Lever to get in the middle of the way of Piston traveling or with REAR yellow Plate.
Hello Knovos,
Also...
Your Lower Rear extrusion (where you are planning to set springs) at Yellow Rear Plate...I see it in the way for whole system to work properly. basically at high speed it will definitivelly seeing it crashing.
EDIT 1: I am seeing your piston and whole motor already running!!...as am also seeing all things that need to be corrected...to work wonderfully!!
So, I believe it would be better to just set Two Springs at center like I have shown...all you have to do is print two more yellow plates...or hold springs by bolts on plates.
A Graph to show you...
Thank you very much for all the suggestions. I think I have all the corrections covered.
Any new advice is welcome. I ordered the meter :D €38,-
regards,
Knovos
If the piston needs more weight I can print the model hollow stop half way the print, put a piece of lead in it and finish the print 8)
Hey Knovos,
What can I say??
IT LOOKS AWESOME MAN!!
Related to Piston weight...you can do it as you wrote before...or
You could print the Piston in two parts, with a rear cap bolted on with just one bolt in a center solid column you will leave inside and hollow AROUND, making sure some steel metal washers could fit inside...
This way you could try different weights...as getting inside steel washers...or even nuts... 8)
Take care
Ufopolitics
Thank You! I will print everything now and see how it goes.
And ya, of course, it is better to make the piston weight adjustable too.
regards,
Knovos
Hello Knovos,
Hope everything is Ok...
Here I will show how you need to have your Springs setup plus Distances to travel...Sorry, this is something I should have written and explain before!!
Since I have not build the Piston and have it working (I am still waiting for Springs) did not think about this IMPORTANT PART.
Meaning, Spring size contracted, Mounting Tension size plus Max extension Size will be DICTATING the size of your Wall to Wall Distance.
I have included a Graphic with the Three Positions that Spring could be...
FIG 1 Spring is exactly at Center of the Distance from Front Wall to Rear Wall...and nothing happens here...Spring is under some tension BUT not FULLY CHARGED AND LOCKED at Rear position, so it can not go anywhere.
FIG 2 BOUNCING/RETURN STAGE : Spring is under tension pulled by Front Plate plus Piston Weight plus Previous FORWARD Travel Velocity...Please note, Front Plate is NOT TOUCHING Front Wall!!
If Front (or Rear) Plates HIT EITHER WALLS the BOUNCING EFFECT or FORWARD MOVEMENT will NOT take place, it is Killed, Dead!!
FIG 3 SPRING CHARGED/LOCKED AT REAR Please note on this Stage, Rear Plate is NOT TOUCHING REAR WALL!!
And here is the tricky part...When Piston goes backwards and contacts the Back plate, it needs to have SOME BACK PLAY stretching Spring to the MAX and still be able to be LOCKED in place without touching rear Wall!!
Think about a Round Jumping Trampoline principle...it needs to be set ABOVE GROUND (Walls here)...and that Distance from floor will be dictated by the MAX stretch of the Trampolin...
If You are jumping...and because you have jumped too highor because your excesive weight, and you get to even touch the floor...you will not Bounce back up...
Same exact principle rules here...
Regards
Ufopolitics
I've been busy printing the parts, but made a few mistakes. It was all not solid enough, wrong material saving and wrong time-saving. I understand what you're saying about the springs. I didn't think about it that way and more or less blindly adopted your idea with the expectation that it would work. No problem, this is a big learning process and there will be a possible solution, I may have to make everything from scratch so be it, this machine will run! It's just a shame that we're probably the only ones in the world working on this technique. It would be nice if others get involved and offer the right solutions because they know a method that works. In the coming days, I will put the current model together, and maybe if you physically have it in your hands there will be an idea to solve this.
regards,
Knovos
Quote from: knovos on March 17, 2022, 10:04:40 AM
It would be nice if others get involved and offer the right solutions because they know a method that works.
regards,
Knovos
I'm working on it also. But I don't want to pollute your thread and really have nothing to show as of yet. My plan is to first get the main frame and actions working and running with electronics to start off.. Then when i know I have everything tweaked to work, then consider replacing the electronics with a mechanical solution as yous are discussing.
I'd be happy to post my progress and stl files here to share when I got something to show- BUT I will not stomp into your thread uninvited.
Good to know someone is still working on this technique. But what you say is correct. If you come up with electronic solutions then you make a completely different machine and it is better to open a thread yourself with this approach.
Hello again,
Basically, You need the Springs BEFORE making it...as Spring will set all TRAVEL DISTANCES.
And here is a Solution, without going and re-printing the outer housing again... ;)
Remember when I suggested to build the Outer Housing case in THREE PARTS?
As also I suggested to use a full bolt from wall to wall?
1- A Front Wall
2- A Rear Wall
3- Piston Housing
Well, I know You have a Rear Wall and a Center Housing which includes the Front Wall, according to your drawings...So, all you will need to do is either cut-divide the front wall from center housing...
or just make those two pieces separate again...
Just get four long enough Threaded Rod (a bolt without the head) and Nuts and washers...as I show on graphic below.
This way, when spring arrives you could set the right distance and test maximum stretch distance...
This Force that you apply in order to stretch spring to max, SHOULD BE MEASURED...in order to calculate Your PISTON WEIGHT or to choose the right spring.
In the case of the OTF Knife, the BLADE WEIGHT is COMPENSATED with Spring Specifications (Max Stretch) PLUS the TRAVELED DISTANCE...
So, main point here is that Plates can NEVER HIT the Rear or Front Plates!!
Later, once you have OTF Piston working beautifully...You still need to take Your Piston Force MEASURED delivered at the END STROKE*...
And this Force MUST BE GREATER than the Force it takes to separate your Attract Magnet...
*Measuring End Stroke Force: You need to set your Digital Gauge FACING Piston front shaft (tool comes with a Point attachment)...Gauge must be bolted on a plate where your OTF Piston assembly is also bolted on that plate...
Move your Piston loosely forward to the max...by hand, and make sure it contacts the gauge at its maximum stretch.
Then you CHARGE your Piston by retracting it and locking it...release trigger while looking at digital screen...As this Gauges (at least mine) does not retain measured newtons and resets back to zero as force ends and piston kicks back...it only shows measured force for less than a second.
It may take a few attempts to get the right measurement...or the average force after a few tests.
There is a lot of patience required in order to build this whole motor and be successful...and follow all steps guidelines...otherwise it will not work.
And after all of the above is achieved successfully...You still need to test Your Piston at high speed...in order to check your Trigger-Locking Latch mechanism is also working perfectly fine.
So, you will also need to build a Testing platform for this Testing...a simple one...a small electric motor that you could measure its RPM's...with a stick at shaft which hits your piston trigger lever and some type of switch at the end of piston, which counts the Strokes per minute...everytime it extends and hits switch.
This test is crucial in order to know your Piston does not makes "False Triggers" or do not lock well at high speeds...if it fails...then the locking system needs some fixing...
Realize the perfect piston needs to stroke twice per RPM...without any failures...so, just going 100 RPM's...it must do 200 strokes per minute...
Every Magnet have a SPECIFIC REPULSE FORCE...depending on size, geometry, grade etc,etc...and this Force will dictate the Max speed that your motor would go...if Piston-Trigger Mechanism responds accurately to every REPULSION STROKE (repulse force at angular momentum).
Regards
Ufopolitics
Hello Floodrod,
You are very welcome to open your own Thread here:
https://overunity.com/lueling-magnet-motor/ (https://overunity.com/lueling-magnet-motor/)
Then choose "New Topic"
And please, add your name to your Thread, for future easier access...like "Floodrod Luling Mechanical-Magnetic Motor Build"...or the like.
And yes, it is a great idea to use electronics to test your motor...or to test whatever...
Remember than in order to repair or even to diagnose an Engine, we all need a scanner connected to an ECM (Electronic Control Module) which tells the Faulty Codes...
And if you look at my previous post, I proposed Knovos a few tests...and one of them, the latest, Speed Stress Test requires to build a specific platform which triggers the Piston latch with a small electric motor...while measuring the strokes versus the RPM's of Motor...
And guys, for anyone that have seen my video...and does not responds to himself that this is an "Air Motor"...LOL....Knows that We can build this thing and make it SUPERB!!
Regards and Welcome to our Builder's Thread!!
Ufopolitics
Thank you both. I am actively watching both your builds and wish you both much success. I will take your invitation and open a thread when I have the basics in place :)
I'll have to wait for my pressure gauge first. This has now become too much trial and error.
I think I've found a great tool for making springs myself. In the description of that video is a download to these STL files. But when I searched deeper I even came across a .SCAD file where you can adjust all parameters of this model
https://youtu.be/QOz2l867N_4
https://github.com/jshessen/SpringFactory
You need to place the library files into the folder BOSL and use the latest (free) Open Scad application.
Of course, you will have to play with this to see what strengths you can achieve for what you need, but with the compression gauss meter, it will have to be very controllable. 8)
It's time for me to go bare-bones to admit that 3D printing falls short for these kinds of mechanical applications. It's a nice quick way of prototyping. But if you want a final product with the high precision and stability required, it becomes very difficult.
I managed to make several systems (photo1), but they all failed. Too many forces were required, or there was too much play in the material. I did find a perfect solution for the spinning disk, USE A HARDDRIVE BEARING.
You can use the hard drive housing and flip the bearing. This is where you attach the disc. Incredibly smooth spinning. But despite that, I ended up with a vertical version (photo 2).
Because the disc spins so great it is tempting for me to try to make an electronic pulse system on it. If that works, we can turn it into a closed loop system and see how much energy is left for harvesting.
Quote from: knovos on October 22, 2022, 09:39:47 AM
Because the disc spins so great it is tempting for me to try to make an electronic pulse system on it. If that works, we can turn it into a closed loop system and see how much energy is left for harvesting.
Hello Knovos,
I am glad to see you are still working on this project...(thumbs up) :)
I will be launching soon a new design based on the same
Lüling Neutralization principle, which changes radically the Stator Actuator we have been working on.
The new design consists on making the changes (turning ON/OFF Neutralization) on the Rotor, not on the Stator.
Which will also include a Stator mounted, fast acting actuator with minimal triggering angle and force.
This actuator I have already shown it on my main thread...as it also serves for the Stator switching design.
It is based on Three(3) Springs, two "twins" and a center trigger unbalancing, smaller spring, all attached to a "T" Pivot lever.
This time I am about 90% sure it will work...but it does have a lot of work, plus very high precision...as the rotor will have built in, four magnet-pistons, and the Stator will only need two(2) fixed magnets...and this would be just one "Module" of the whole engine...which ciould have 2,4,5, 6 or 8 modules attached to the same shaft.
I am gathering all materials for it...already have the neos, cylinders of 3/4 inch by 1/2 inch with sink holes for #8 screws...
The material I will be mounting this whole thing is clear plexiglass 1 1/2 inch 6 inch rotor...
I am making it clear so we could see all theinside hardware at work on my next video..."SELF RUNNING LÜLING MAGNET MOTOR".
Regards
Ufopolitics
Hey Ufopolitics!
I've seen the drawings. Not easy to understand what you mean. I am amazed and also excited that you are so confident that it is going to work, I really hope so. Maybe when the time comes and it really starts to work, I want to look again at whether it can still be done with 3D printed materials. It would be such a great exchange worldwide.
respect!
Leon.