Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice.
1. A volume of water is frozen while at some great depth of water.
2. The water surrounding this ice is very near in temperature to the
freezing temperature of water.
3. The ice is contained within a highly temperature insulating vessel.
4. The insulating vessel has a neutral buoyancy in water.
What effect does water pressure have upon the freezing point of water ?
The freezing temperature of water remains nearly the same up to around
200 MPa or 29,007.5 PSI
1 foot of height of water in a column exerts 0.4335 psi
29,007.5 PSI divided by 0.4335 = 66914.6 feet or 20395.57 meters of depth
in water before there is a significant change in the freezing temperature of water.
The density of liquid water is 1 g/mL.
The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL
The ice is 8% less dense than the water.
Therefore, for every 1 Kilogram of water frozen at depth we get 8% of 1 Kilogram
of buoyancy in water.
1 kg = 9.80665 Newtons
9.80665 Newtons * 0.08 kilograms = 0.784532 newtons of buoyancy force for each
kilogram of ice.
0.7845 buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.
4.184 joules = 1 calorie.
It requires 4.184 joules to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree
centigrade.
It requires 4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.
Below about 200 meters depth, ocean water has an average temperature of 4°C (39°F).
Given that we begin with water at a temperature of 1 degree centigrade.
Given that our refrigeration device is 100% efficient.
5333 meters is the break even point.
The average of the ocean's depth is 3,700 meters while the Challenger Deep is approximately 10.925 meters.
Not great, but possibly O.U.
I have done a similar experiment. Fill a small steel jar with water upto 25%, close the lid and shake the jar up and down. Nothing will happen. But if you fill the jar (25%) with hot water giving out steam, close the lid and shake the jar up and down, the lid will fly off with high energy! What would be the reason for it?
Obviously pressure of steam.
QuoteThe Air in the jar rapidly heats when the jar is shaken. This is due to the
hot water mixing with the air.
Obviously,I was wrong. :(
Air expands when heated, it contracts when it is cooled down.
The Air in the jar rapidly heats when the jar is shaken. This is due to the
hot water mixing with the air.
This is not the same thing as a phase change of water turning to ice @
https://overunity.com/19442/buoyancy-device-by-phase-change-of-water-to-ice/msg576521/#msg576521
There is an associated change in volume of the insulated container,
What affect might this have on changes in temperature?
Begin freezing the water, and the effect causes an increase in temperature?
Theres also the weight of the refrigerator system, which will be much less buoyant than ice.
Causing a technical issue with the freezing.
It is an interesting concept, but i can see some issues that would first need to be addressed
Agree.
Lots of problems to over come with this process.
Thanks for the input.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on April 19, 2023, 02:07:59 PM
There is an associated change in volume of the insulated container,
What affect might this have on changes in temperature?
Begin freezing the water, and the effect causes an increase in temperature?
Theres also the weight of the refrigerator system, which will be much less buoyant than ice.
Causing a technical issue with the freezing.
It is an interesting concept, but i can see some issues that would first need to be addressed
Thanks again.
I gave very little detail, sorry
In my mind the ice was placed into the the insulating container after freezing.
In my mind the the refrigeration system remains at depth.
...
any liquid can be used which changes density with the temp.
considerations ..
The most change in volume per degree of temperature change.
Use of ambient temperature can bring water into very near to the phase
change temperature, either side, higher or lower.
Got other ideas - info ?
Quote from: Willy on April 19, 2023, 02:27:46 PM
Thanks again.
I gave very little detail, sorry
In my mind the ice was placed into the the insulating container after freezing.
In my mind the the refrigeration system remains at depth.
This helps, we can simplify a lot of things now.
So, if say the refrigerant system allows intake at depth
And the ejection port faces upwards:
The change in buoyancy could be harvested directly.
Then its a matter of depth vs cooling energy (electric or compression or ?)
Would need a large volume of water, not merely a column, to prevent cooling of the reservoir
Quote from: Willy on April 23, 2023, 09:51:45 AM
considerations ..
The most change in volume per degree of temperature change.
Use of ambient temperature can bring water into very near to the phase
change temperature, either side, higher or lower.
Got other ideas - info ?
I lost my lengthy reply.
Short version: look into temperatures and depths. I suspect close to freezing water will prove very hard to find.
It would be a cool experiment to make an ice cube near the surface and at the bottom of a lake, same water temperature, compare the energy needed. How much energy could be extracted needs to be realistically assesed.
I like tidal flows more. Only side effect might be that when we hamper ebb and flow, we're making the moon crash into Earth. It's only logical.
Here's an ancient Dutch concept for a tidal like in the North Sea.
My favourite thing about it is that this form of construction gets more efficient as it's built bigger.
Twice the length of surrounding structures...4x the water contained/drained per tide flow.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on April 23, 2023, 10:59:01 AM
This helps, we can simplify a lot of things now.
So, if say the refrigerant system allows intake at depth
And the ejection port faces upwards:
The change in buoyancy could be harvested directly.
Then its a matter of depth vs cooling energy (electric or compression or ?)
Would need a large volume of water, not merely a column, to prevent cooling of the reservoir
Conditions required.
1. near freezing temperature water
2, water with great depth.
3, " large volume of water, not merely a column"
"Then its a matter of depth vs cooling energy"
I think that with careful design and selection of installation location,
such a design could do more out than in.
An illustration to follow...
Cloxxki
Tidal harvest is a great way to go.
Vertical Ice sheets inside over sized insulating sandwich bags.
with a slow rise and descent, to minimize friction.
Thin sheets can exchange temp more rapidly than cubes (more exposed surface area).
Gear box below, magnetic linking from gear box to refrigeration unit's
mechanical drive. ? ? ?
combine the above with this
https://overunity.com/19449/hydraulic-product-of-water-phase-change/msg576872/#msg576872
Quote from: Willy on April 13, 2023, 05:23:35 PM
Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice.
Not great, but possibly O.U.
Thanks to
Willy for sharing his vision for phase transitions.
I feel that improving your idea and using a liquid-to-gas phase transition might have better results.
Because of the phase transition from liquid to gas,
there may be a volume change of more than 500 times.
Figure 1 is a schematic diagram of the assumption principle
Figure 2 shows the structure that may be self-running. It is another solar installation.
The heat of vaporization of water is approximately 2200KJ/KG
The heat of vaporization of Freon is 160KJ/KG
In Figure 2, many expansion boxes hanging on the chain,
each consisting of several thousand small boxes,
are designed to allow for faster heat exchange.
The lower part of each group of expansion boxes has a pressure resistant box with a valve.
The small box and the expansion box are one and move with the chain together.
Eliminates the complex piping and valves and sealing structures that may be required in Figure 1.
Freon emerges from the water at the top of the structure
and is cooled by local cold air into a liquid that flows into this small box.
The valve of the cartridge is then dialed to the closed state at the appropriate position in the chain operation.
The valve of the small box is toggled open at the bottom of the chain ring at the right position.
The liquid Freon in the small box is heated and vaporized at the bottom by lake water at 4 degrees Celsius.
The volume of gas Freon is increased, so that the expansion box floats up, and a larger buoyancy energy is obtained.
If the rotation speed is fast enough, it is not necessary to use car antifreeze.
Thank you as well.
Water expands upon freezing, due to crystalline structure formations within the ice.
This is not the same kind of process as the thermal expansion of other fluids / gases.
The exterior water pressure inhibits the ability of a gas to expand at depth,
much, much more so than that exterior water pressure affects the transitioning of
water to ice and its accompanying expansion.
Buoyancy device by phase change of water to ice.
1. A volume of water is frozen while at some great depth of water.
2. The water surrounding this ice is very near in temperature to the
freezing temperature of water.
3. The ice is contained within a highly temperature insulating vessel while riseing.
4. The insulating vessel has a neutral buoyancy in water.
What effect does water pressure have upon the freezing point of water ?
The freezing temperature of water remains nearly the same up to around
200 MPa or 29,007.5 PSI
1 foot of height of water in a column exerts 0.4335 psi
29,007.5 PSI divided by 0.4335 = 66914.6 feet or 20395.57 meters of depth
in water before there is a significant change in the freezing temperature of water.
The density of liquid water is 1 g/mL.
The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL
The ice is 8% less dense than the water.
Therefore, for every 1 Kilogram of water frozen at depth we get 8% of 1 Kilogram
of buoyancy in water.
1 kg = 9.80665 Newtons
9.80665 Newtons * 0.08 kilograms = 0.784532 newtons of buoyancy force for each
kilogram of ice.
0.7845 buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.
4.184 joules = 1 calorie.
It requires 4.184 joules to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree
centigrade.
It requires 4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.
Below about 200 meters depth, ocean water has an average temperature of 4°C (39°F).
Given that we begin with water at a temperature of 1 degree centigrade.
Given that our refrigeration device is 100% efficient.
5333 meters is the break even point.
The average of the ocean's depth is 3,700 meters while the Challenger Deep is approximately 10.925 meters.
Water expands upon freezing, due to crystalline structure formations within the ice.
This is not the same kind of process as the thermal expansion of other fluids / gases.
The exterior water pressure inhibits the ability of a gas to expand at depth,
much more so than
that exterior water pressure affects the transitioning of water to ice and its accompanying
expansion.
combine the above with this
Another observation.
Making sheet ice allows faster freezing, but also faster melting while
rising.
If the ice sheets are formed with lines of perforations, their own buoyancy (as they rise)
can be used to break the sheets into smaller sheets and then stack those smaller sheets into
a cube form. This, before they enter into a cube shaped insulating jacket. All or nearly all,
accomplished by the energy of their own buoyancy .
Interlude / direction change.
Correct me if I am wrong here, but
It is my understanding that the electrolysis of water into H and O
under pressures (i.e. under deep water) greater than atmospheric pressure (i.e. sea level)
DOES NOT DECREASE the efficiency of the electrolysis in terms of
Electrical (edit... joules and / or wattage) input per mass of gasses produced.
High pressures decrease the RATE of production (gas produced per unit of time)
but also simultaneously decrease the electric current flowing through the electrolyte
(per unit of time) ? ? ?
Efficiency in terms of energy input to energy output remains the same ? ? ?
The advantages of electrolysis
while under water pressure
as opposed to in atmosphere
1. The use of a supporting buoy at the top of the rise, in water as opposed to the use of a tower
or a lighter than air balloon buoy in atmosphere at the top of the rise.
2 The availability of neutral buoyancy rope in water as opposed to the unavailability
of a neutral buoyancy rope in atmosphere. A long rope gets very heavy in atmosphere.
3. Greater energy output per unit of rise distance.
Quote from: Willy on April 24, 2023, 12:16:50 PM
Efficiency in terms of energy input to energy output remains the same ? ? ?
Not much less will be the real output gas per current, but that's not the point.
Too little volume of gases is produced in absolute terms, or gigantic currents are needed.
Or you need to look for other chemicals that produce a larger volume of gas at a lower current.
Quote from: kolbacict on April 24, 2023, 02:13:14 PM
Not much less will be the real output gas per current, but that's not the point.
Too little volume of gases is produced in absolute terms, or gigantic currents are needed.
Or you need to look for other chemicals that produce a larger volume of gas at a lower current.
"Not much less will be the real output gas per current, but that's not the point."
Correction, this is very much so is a main point of this presentation.
"Too little volume of gases is produced in absolute terms. "
1. Your statement is unclear, since it does not tell us what
you mean by the phrase "absolute terms".
2. Mass of gases produced, not VOLUME. is that which I
spoke of.
3. The gases produced will have less volume at depth, than
they will have at sea level.
4. The gases remain buoyant at depth until their density matches
that of the water.
Question ? ... At what depth under water / at what pressure,
does oxygen, does hydrogen reaqch the same density as water?
Temperature is also a factor in this whole process.
5. The gases increase in buoyancy as they rise in the water.
"Or you need to look for other chemicals that produce a larger
volume of gas at a lower current."
I do not agree.
Your point is a valid one.
Thanks
EDIT... Your point is an important one and valid.
Thank you very much. Great input !
12,214,800 joules to produce 1 cubic meter of hydrogen at sea level (82 grams).
1 cubic meter of hydrogen by buoyancy in atmosphere can lift 1.2 kg of weight.
9.8 joules to lift 1 kilogram 1 meter
9.8 x 1.2 Kg = 11.76 joules to lift 1.2 Kg 1 meter
12,214,800 joules electrical input / 11.76 joules of energy gain as lifting per meter
= 1,038,674 meters in altitude. or 1,038,674 kilometers
3,407,723. feet or 645 miles altitude break even point.
There is a minimum rising distance IN ATMOSPHERE, of the hydrogen gas produced by the electrolysis in order to break even between, the joules of energy gained as gas rise, and the joules of energy input to do the electrolysis. The break even point occurs at 645 miles
elevation !
asdfasdfsadfsdfsdf
Given that the heat produced in an electrolyte plus the heat of the combustion of
the H and O produced, is equal to the input electrical energy to do the electrolysis
(unity), an over unity gain can be realized after the hydrogen's rise due to buoyancy
in atmosphere and then combustion at altitude. It is a small percentage O.U.
and difficult to make practical use of.
under water
Increase in the gas density will decrease the buoyancy force available from the gases.
The rate at which the density of the gasses increases as water pressure increases
(with greater depth), makes a break even point unobtainable ?
unless...
Combustion after the gas rise and the heat from the electrolysis are again taken into
account.
What I have been / am examining here (second part of this topic), if it is possible to
improve that O.U percentage via under water electrolysis
and if not,
then can it be more easily accessed when done under water.
or
perhaps, under water but also in part, above water?
Quote from: Cloxxki on April 23, 2023, 11:10:23 AM
I lost my lengthy reply.
Short version: look into temperatures and depths. I suspect close to freezing water will prove very hard to find.
It would be a cool experiment to make an ice cube near the surface and at the bottom of a lake, same water temperature, compare the energy needed. How much energy could be extracted needs to be realistically assesed.
I like tidal flows more. Only side effect might be that when we hamper ebb and flow, we're making the moon crash into Earth. It's only logical.
Here's an ancient Dutch concept for a tidal like in the North Sea.
My favourite thing about it is that this form of construction gets more efficient as it's built bigger.
Twice the length of surrounding structures...4x the water contained/drained per tide flow.
It inverts at some depth, a little backwards from the way logic wants us to look at it.
One might assume the higher pressure would increase the temperature
in some cases, this is true within a given depth range,
But at great depths, pressure greatly increases. Due to the PVT relationship, and the associated decrease in volume, temperature actually drops. (deep sea gets down to about 4 degrees above freezing)
Bottom of a lake should be better, because it is closer to the freezing point.
and the density under this pressure should tip the displacement equation in our favor.
a few criteria:
If your math is correct, you're looking at a maximum depth of around 10,000 ft
The refrigeration system should be designed to operate under pressure
and the heat exchange mechanisms will need to be as efficient/fast as possible.
aluminum has high thermal conductivity, however most refrigerator radiators are fragile
So maybe something from the computer/electronics industry, copper tubing, etc.
may consider replacing the paint on the compressor with a thermally conductive paint, if you use a compression based refrigerant system.
but to be honest; electronic or elastic systems can perform the same function
As can linear motors (sterling, acoustic, etc)
I would just keep in mind a fast transfer of heat to the lake when choosing materials in general.
for buoyancy energy generation (water, air, or any fluid)
the height of the column is the determining factor.
Filling a helium balloon high up in the air it doesnt have very far to rise
But fill it at the ground tied to a cable, you can compress more helium to than you used.
temperature difference also is important.
with helium in air (or a more dense gas) you want hot helium rising and cool it on the way down.
But for ice: you want just around or slightly below freezing.
Go too cold and it begins to contract again. Go too cold under very large pressures it will deuterate. (great heat and pressure can also but to a lesser degree)
you wont get that cold, and a lake probably isnt that deep
but there is a scale for ice (based on the purity) it will expand at the freezing point, then contract at a colder temperature.
hot water goes through this change at a temperature range also right around boiling, after it condenses and releases its trapped gasses.
It is this aspect of H2O that gives us this buoyancy condition.
(and subsequently why hot water floats)
your concept is very intriguing, i think with enough flushing this out, we may be able to create a working ice-buoyancy system.
sort of an after though:
If using a compression-based refrigerant system, there are two scenarios which stand out.
One is designing a system that makes use of the water pressure of the lake.
The other compresses the gas above water and expands it into an underwater chamber where the ice is made. (similar to the balloon system someone posted above, but using a static chamber to expand the gas and a heat exchanger to cool the water below freezing).
Also: need to think about part; as we don't want heat from the lake melting the ice on the way up via the heat exchange mechanisms.
RETURNING TO THE
BUOYANCY BY
WATER TO ICE PHASE CHANGE
SUBJECT
smoky2
Thanks for the observations and considerations given.
I expect, I'll need to examine and then cogitate upon it for a spell.
Probably, I will have some questions / need of some clarifications.
partial quote
Quote from: sm0ky2 on April 25, 2023, 12:55:30 PM
a few criteria:
If your math is correct, you're looking at a maximum depth of around 10,000 f
1 foot of height of water in a column exerts 0.4335 psi
29,007.5 PSI divided by 0.4335 = 66914.6 feet or 20395.57 meters of depth
in water before there is a significant change in the freezing temperature of water.
The density of liquid water is 1 g/mL.
The density of liquid water is 1 g/cm^3
The density of ice is 0.92 g/mL
The density of ice is 0.92 g/cm^3
The ice is 8% less dense than the water.
Therefore, for every 1 Kilogram of water frozen at depth we get 8% of 1
Kilogram of buoyancy in water.
1 kg = 9.80665 Newtons
9.80665 Newtons * 0.08 kilograms = 0.784532
newtons of buoyancy force for each kilogram of ice.
0.7845 buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.
4.184 joules = 1 calorie.
It requires 4.184 joules to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree
centigrade.
It requires 4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.
Below about 200 meters depth, ocean water has an average temperature of 4°C (39°F).
Given that we begin with water at a temperature of 1 degree centigrade.
Given that our refrigeration device is 100% efficient.
0.7845 buoyancy joules per kilogram of ice at 1 meter of depth.
4184 joules to raise 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree centigrade.
4184 / 0.7845 = 5333
5333 meters is the break even point.
smoky2
Is this the idea that was rolling around in your mind ?
Refrigeration system at the surface ?
Using an aspect of the idea from the post by panyuming here @
https://overunity.com/19442/buoyancy-device-by-phase-change-of-water-to-ice/msg576918/#msg576918
His "figure 2.jpg"
We can get all the free refrigeration we want.
Surface air temperature can be much colder than any thing we need.
Exchange heat with, for example ambient arctic air.
We could pump a refrigerated cooling fluid from the surface, through an
insulated tubing to depth while not having to overcome pressure at depth,
as long as the output end of the tubing returns to the height of the
water surface / height we pump the fluid from.
The energy cost is basically, overcoming friction in the tube while pumping.
Thanks again panyuming
Brain pools can certainly rock it... some times.
Quote from: Willy on April 24, 2023, 01:20:09 AM
Another observation.
Making sheet ice allows faster freezing, but also faster melting while
rising.
If the ice sheets are formed with lines of perforations, their own buoyancy (as they rise)
can be used to break the sheets into smaller sheets and then stack those smaller sheets into
a cube form. This, before they enter into a cube shaped insulating jacket. All or nearly all,
accomplished by the energy of their own buoyancy .
Decreasing the ice surface area to volume ratio slows down melting.
A neutral buoyancy, cubical insulating container for containing a large block of
ice, that's doable.
Splitting perforated ice sheets progressively down into smaller square sheets,
by use of their own rise due to buoyancy, that's doable.
Stacking the square ice sheets in to a cube, by use of their own rise due to
buoyancy, that's doable.
Placing them into a cubical insulating container, by use of their own rise due to
buoyancy, that's doable.
Closing and latching the sixth side of the containers, by use of their own rise due to
buoyancy, that's doable.
A neutral buoyancy rope or chain, that's doable.
Place the electric generator at the top of the rise
Reverse most of the process at the top of the rise.
These methods can function with liquid to solid phase changing
substances other than water. Any expansion greater than 8%
is of course desirable. As long as its not ice 9.
hill billy willy
I was going to do a air conditioning project using ice.
Working with AC companies in the past, I realize a 1 ton unit in the old day was 1ton of ice. But from the phase change of 32deg to 33deg to liquid the block of ice would produce 288,000 btu in a 24 hour time.
1 ton = 12,000 btu in 1 hour.
I was doing research using a efficient low power freezer of 120 watts to super chill water for campers, using solar during the day.
At night time a small low power pump could be used to convert that into cooling.
Tom
very nice
Keep in mind this is a liquid fluid, not a gas.
We increased the buoyancy, by freezing the water cube which surrounds the
neutral buoyancy cube at its center, more so than if we had frozen the water
while it was still in the trough.
because...
We had already increased the ratio of its exterior surface area (exterior volume) to
its mass, before it was frozen. Once frozen, The combination of the hollow ice cube
and enclosed solid cube are less dense than the equal mass of frozen water in the
trough.
The frozen water cube, will be more buoyant in water than will be the equal mass of
water as frozen in the trough.
The solid cube, alone, which is centered within the frozen cube is buoyancy neutral
in water.
No.
If the interior, solid cube is less dense than water, then yes.
If the interior, solid cube is denser than water then no.
If the interior, solid cube is as dense as water then no, no difference.
Only the water's expansion as ice makes a difference.
Other wise, a water filled balloon would be more buoyant than an empty one
of the same mass. :'(
But we don't need to stack square ice sheets in order to have a thin
layer of water to freeze !
I don't know that this is a new method or not, but I have never seen it before.
Electric energy derivation from buoyancy by means of water to ice phase change,
caused by the application of temperature differences between air and deep water. That's
pretty cool. But I was hoping to push this farther... like O.U..
0.08 joules in a 1 meter of rise of 1 kilogram of ice.
12.5 meters or 41. feet to give 1 joule.
1,250 meters or 4,101.05 feet to give 100 joules.
40 cm/s or 0.4 m/s per second as the rise speed by buoyancy (max).
4 meters rise in 10 seconds.
1 kilogram at 12.5 meters / 0.4 meters = 31.25 seconds per joule
31.25 kilograms or 8.2554 gallons of ice at 12.5 meters or 41 feet to give us 1 watt.
7.8125 kilograms or 2.06385 gallons of ice at 50 meters or 164 feet to give us 1 watt.
1,000 watts requires 7,812.5 kilograms at 50 meters or
7.8125 kilograms at 50,000 meters. You pick which one you prefer.
My next project...
a sled harness for frogs.
I looked on line and realized that I could buy decent quality frog harnesses
for less than the price of the materials to make my own.
The volume increase of liquid water to ice is 8%. 0.08 x (1 m^3) 1.000,000 cc =
80,000 cc expansion at 25,000 psi (or 1,757,673 grams per square centimeter).
Lets use that 80,000 cc expansion at 25,000 psi (1,757,674 grams per square centimeter),
to draw a vacuum in a plugged syringe.
Using a syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 1 cubic centimeter
of volume.
The syringe has 0 content before the draw and is neutral buoyant in water.
After the draw, the syringe has expanded to an increased exterior volume by
80,000 cc.... Latch the syringe at that position. It now has a buoyancy force in
water, of 80,000 grams.
1 psi = 70.3 grams per square centimeter (gsc).
Water pressure at 1 meter is 1.418552 psi
1.418552 psi = 99.73407564314581 gsc (grams per square centimeter)
Water pressure at 1 meter is 99.7340 gsc
1 meter of height of water in a column exerts 99.7340 gsc
1,757,674 gsc / 99.7340 gsc = 17,623. meters of water depth to match the
1,757,674 gsc generated by the water to ice expansion.
Using a syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 1 cubic centimeters
of volume (1 square centimeters of piston surface).
1,757,674 grams per square centimeter / 99.7340 gsc = 17,623 meters of water
depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion.
Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 2 cubic centimeters
of volume (2 square centimeters of piston surface).
17,623 / 2 = 8,811 meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion.
Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 4 cubic centimeters
of volume. (4 square centimeters of piston surface)
8,811 / 2 = 4,405 meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion
Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 8 cubic centimeters
of volume. (8 square centimeters of piston surface)
4,405 / 2 = 2,202 meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion
Using a larger diameter syringe where in, each centimeter of length draws 16 cubic centimeters
of volume. (16 square centimeters of piston surface)
2,202 / 2 = 1,101 meters of water depth to equal the pressure of the ice expansion
A syringe draw length of 80,00 centimeters by 16 cubic centimeters of volume
for each 1 centimeter of draw length = 1,280,000 cubic centimeters of volume.
12,800 kg of buoyancy.
12,800 kg of buoyancy x 1101 meters of rise = 14,092,800 joules.
It requires 4.184 joules to decrease the temperature of 1 cc of water by 1 degree
centigrade.
It requires 4,184,000 joules to decrease the temperature of 1 cubic meter of water by
1 degree centigrade.
The illustration below, may not represent the ideal shape for turning the water's
expansion into 80,000 linear centimeters at 25,000 psi.
Quote from: Willy on April 26, 2023, 05:51:18 PM
Keep in mind this is a liquid fluid, not a gas.
Yes i can confirm that the round (ball) ice cubes are much more buoyant than a square or rectangle cube of the same water volume. This removes changes in buoyant force for comparison.
(personally i never really agreed with the flattening of 3-D objects into a 2-D analogy. Usually the thought experiment involves losing the vertical dimensional translation. Which means the flat square should be larger than predicted)
I believe this is the water resistance (like wind resistance but much worse)
Keep in mind this was tested by a connecting rod attached to the top of the cube,
Leaving its' surface area exposed during the upward transition, and measuring the force over depth placed upon the rod.
Velocity improved results on all 3 icecube shapes,
Which tells me there is a stronger surface related resistance at slower velocities.
Generally with these tests, the forces at each point add up to the force at the surface when allowed to free-rise. (Some object become airborne, giving additional observational data)
However, in the case of test objects with different shapes (and constant surface area) the results may differ drastically.
Perhaps an oval (elliptical?) ice cube may improve on the sphere....
just my thoughts, haven't tried that yet.
Initially, I was just looking at the 8% density change and the energy potential developed
within that context. Kind of a warm up.
Now I have expanded the context to include the very large force available as ice expansion.
Its very cool.
Still a lot of details / possible snags / improvements remain to be worked through.
Thanks
Study the phase transition of liquid-gas with a volume change greater than 500 times,
and the liquid-solid phase transition with a volume change of 1.08 times,
Obviously more likely to succeed.
Quote from: panyuming on April 29, 2023, 07:04:36 PM
Study the phase transition of liquid-gas with a volume change greater than 500 times,
and the liquid-solid phase transition with a volume change of 1.08 times,
Obviously more likely to succeed.
Thank you for your responses.
The gases in response to the pressure due to submersion within fluids compress.
That compression is also an increase in the density of those gases.
Increased density means also, decreased buoyancy.
These two factors balance out nicely in all buoyancy devices based upon that method.
This results in a zero net gain in those devices when the heat energy within the gases
remains equal (when submerged and not submerged).
Sufficient temperature differences (from environmental exchanges) and the resulting gas
expansions and / or contractions can, no doubt, cause a buoyancy device to function.
EDIT...
If you know of a gas that does not conform to Boyle's law, please post it here.
Also, if your are aware of a substance that meets ALL of these criteria below ...
1. change in volume per calorie of heat is greater than the water to ice phase change.
2. can exert greater than 25,000 psi as a result of that phase change.
3. does not decrease in density as a result of an external pressure applied of 29,000 psi.
4. an external pressure applied of up to 29,000 psi does not prevent that phase change.
EDIT
3. does not INCREASE in density as a result of an external pressure applied of 29,000 psi.
A 14,092,800 joules to 4,184,000 joules of energy ratio or a
3.3682 joules out to 1 joule in ratio.
next
Release the latch on the 16 cubic centimeters (16 square centimeter surface area piston)
x 80,000 centimeters long float, now that it is at the surface / at sea level. It has a
vacuum relative to sea level air pressure.
That vacuum was 16 square centimeters by 1 cubic centimeter by 80,000 centimeters
in relationship to a water depth of 1101 meters. Now, at sea level, the vacuum is in
relationship to 1032.8092 grams per square centimeter (gsc) or 14.69 psi.
Some more energy out...
1032.8092 gsc of vacuum in the syringe relative to the sea level air pressure times
a displacement of 16 cubic centimeters times 80,000 centimeters as water volume
drawn in (outer side of syringe piston) before a pressure equilibrium is reached.
Now empty (full of water on the outside of the piston), the float/ syringe is again
neutral buoyant in the water. Send / tow it back down, under power of the next
rising float.
And
we still have some chunks of ice riesing, the buoyancy of which we can also harvest.
The fluids, gases used, depths, pressures, volumes and ratios are intended only as
exemplary. Other fluids, gasses used, depths, pressures, volumes and ratios in some
part or in total, can be applicable to the method presented.
EDITS
.. ..
Quote from: Willy on May 01, 2023, 05:09:38 PM
Release the latch on the 16 cubic centimeters (16 square centimeter surface area piston)
x 80,000 centimeters long float, now that it is at the surface / at sea level. It has a
vacuum relative to sea level air pressure.
It all need drawing.
Agree
It needs organized and drawings. I'll get to it when I can.
thanks
The process begins with the drawing below.
The freeze thaw pump is a heat exchanger for the adsorption of heat from water /
freezing of water. It should have been labeled as a freeze pump in the drawing.
Its energy source could be a heat radiator and pump located above the water's surface,
in cold arctic air. A cooling fluid is circulated between the radiator and the adsorber.
Cyclically the Ice is discarded and new water taken in and frozen.
The water expands upon freezing, presses a hydraulic fluid through a piston cylinder
and moves a piston. It is a water phase change driven, hydraulic press.
Note that, Only for simplifying of the math, did I assign a 1 square centimeter surface area to
the piston. As a result, this give a very long piston stroke (caused by the hydraulic pressure
/ fluid) 80,000 centimeters length. It will be more practical to have a larger piston diameter
and a shorter piston stroke. This would however, necessitate the changing of all of the various
mathematical ratios given in the exemplary model of its operation.
The hydraulic press / piston's motion is used to draw / pull a vacuum in another piston and
cylinder. I have referred to that other piston and cylinder as a syringe (like unto a syringe used for hypodermic injections but obviously much larger). That syringe pulls nothing into itself
as it expands. An empty space / vacuum in relationship to the surrounding water pressure
is created instead. The syringe is
LATCHED
in that position until it has arrived at the surface
of the water. I hope this helps for now.
EDIT
And math checked
1280 kilograms of buoyancy x 1101 meters of depth = 1,409,840 joules.
not 14,092,800 joules.
joules by ice rise from 1101 meters of depth is 0.8 kg x 1101 meters = 88.08 joules
80,000 cubic centimeters under vacuum against 14.7 psia at sea level = 8,108 joules
joules from water to ice expansion = 1,409,840 joules
Total = 1,418,036 joules
1,418,036 joules total out to 4,184,000 joules in
2.9674 to 1 less than 33% efficient
Probably more like 25% efficient after cooling fluid pumping cost.
:-[
but useful
Positives / informative
The difference in energy content of a vacuum "filled" float as the result of
temperature changes
from
the energy content of a gas filled float as the result of temperature changes.
Buoyancy neutral vertical drive chain (up and then down after rounding a gear, then up again
after rounding a second gear.