https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WbaRZlUhNM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WbaRZlUhNM)
Great find by Stefan, thanks for reposting on YouTube.
Did it have a thread yet?
Lovely how his design can be tuned for the perfect air gap, per magnet.
Anyone with a 3D printer ought to be able to do a decent replication attempt if he's shared the files (he likely has but I didn't check), even easier.
My mind immediate goes to finding a way to curve the magnet (radially and vertically) so the balls or rotor can stay in a flat round plane with the smoothest torque possible. Sping load might substitute gravity to an extent, but you want a motor to work in any orientation and allow for shaking during operation.
Any serious reason to doubt the validy of the presentation?
I want to hope it's real . . . . But without it being shown on a glass (see-through) table or especially any independent duplications I lean toward skepticism. . .
That's a fair comment.
It'd love to see that on a glass table and then balls added until they start to interfere.
A clever feed ramp or twist and stop might manage to get in two or three balls per magnet.
I also hope it is no fake ...
Regards, Stefan.
If anyone wants to waste his time, here are the original STL files.
But it doesn't work. Like any other SMOT, V-gate or whatever. It's never possible to close the loop.
magnets under the table ?
Was discussed here a while back between a few builders
The perfect synchronizing of the spheres/balls
180 degrees out ...
Was mentioned as odd
Even with a well tuned motor driven rotor under the table, it still seem to be an original design.
The way those balls roll, how hard might it be to design and make a hidden rotor than that does particular job? You're dealing with balls that hop over the ridges fluently. Perhaps harder to fake than an enthusiastically accelerating magnet motor? I'm no builder though, please correct me if this is easy to fake after all.
People have tinkered with less promising looking motors before, this one here at least seems fun to tinker with.
Quote from: ramset on May 17, 2023, 06:03:13 PM
Was discussed here a while back between a few builders
The perfect synchronizing of the spheres/balls
180 degrees out ...
Was mentioned as odd
Good point
Might be possible that the second ball would happen to enter at the precise
moment for them to be 180 degrees out and remain so ?
2. There is no reason why it should work, the energy present as attraction
peaks when a ball is nearest a magnet, both in approaching and in escaping.
3. If this could work, there would be no need for a high point in the ramp at all.
My experience with steel spheres and magnets is that the magnet
tends to pull on the sphere from all sides causing the sphere to
no longer want to roll, instead it will try to slide. My disclaimer
is that I have only tested solid steel spheres, your mileage may
vary with something different.
At first I thought it not very likely the balls could sink 180 out.
But upon thinking it through some more, if it works then why couldn't they
sink at 180 out ? So, I edited my previous post.
But...
2. There is no reason why it should work, the energy present as attraction
peaks when a ball is nearest a magnet, both in approaching and in escaping.
3. The energy needed to pull or lift a ball up, to some specific height, is the same if along
a long ramp as if it is along a short ramp, either way. All that counts is the height of the lifting.
The same applies to its falling / rolling down.
4. If this could work, there would be no need for a high point in the ramp at all.
5. If this could work the ball could be mounted upon a swinging arm and the magnets
placed around the outside circumference of its swing. This does not work.
But I support anyone building experimenting, learning and sharing.
This is my own experimenting with what is essentially a linear variation
of a V gate design.
@
https://overunity.com/15482/thin-magnetic-ramp-experiment/msg488092/#msg488092
Definitely it was worth building and playing around with.
Quote from: Cloxxki on May 17, 2023, 12:25:21 PM
My mind immediate goes to finding a way to curve the magnet (radially and vertically)
Flexible plastic magnets will help you. In modern motors, this is mainly. It can be tied in a knot.
not sure how many of you were here during the Tri-Force catastrophe.
But if this works at all, one single gate will work
As he shows at the beginning.
This was HJ's first lesson as well, so this alone gives merit for at least an attempt at replication.
Clanzer was probably the closest to making one of these work
I hope he's alive and well out there somewhere
What i find interesting is the vertical orientation of the gate
This incorporates gravity in a unique way
Things to consider:
Angle of incline on acceleration (towards center of magnet)
And angle of incline during deceleration
Also momentum at the center point to overcome the small incline
(longer horizontally, and more gradual vertical transition)
and if this is enough to overcome the reverse force that would
otherwise pull the ball back up the shorter distance (steeper vertical)
Gets me thinking harder.
observations
1. The hight peak in the track is nearest to the exit end of the magnet.
2. The side of the track in which the ball gains speed, is longer than the
exiting side of the ramp.
3. On approach the ball has more distance closely exposed to the magnets field
and in which to gain speed and momentum than it has distance closely exposed
to the magnets field in which to lose speed and momentum after the height peak ?
4. The angle of approach of the ball to the magnet is in a direction which will
impart more force along the direction of its travel along the track
than
the angle of its departure from the height peak takes from the direction of its travel
along the track ?
Or stated another way.
The magnet's pull direction is more oblique after the height peak, and does not
as directly oppose the balls direction of momentum along the track
as does
the entrance side's pull from the magnet upon the ball's less oblique approach
contributes to the ball's gaining momentum in the direction of its travel along
the track ?
5. The force along the length of the magnet surface (left to right) at a given near
and same distance, is greatest near to the ends of the magnet. The force balances
(left to right) at the center of the magnet's length.
Build at least one segment ? Hell yes.
In addition to the above observations,
there is also the gravitational field acting to free the ball from the gate.
Gravitational vector is always downwards
Therefore: gravity represents the side leg of a right triangle.
The bottom leg being in the horizontal along the length of the track,
where the ball touches.
The Hypotenuse is then drawn from the ball to the center of the magnetic bar
The force vector of magnetism being along the Hypotenuse.
The shorter the Hypotenuse, the greater the force.
(observation the inventor keeps this weaker than gravity)
hypothesis: it is almost entirely a function of momentum that pushes the ball over the ramp.
Magnetism has very little effect on the vertical transition.
I think it is for this reason, (the specific use of gravity) that it was labeled a "smot"
rather than a gate
What would be the outcome if we used this type of small ramp track
With some of the other gates?
HJ? Tri-Force? V ?
What would be the outcome if we used this type of gate with a flat track
and omitted the ramps?
Agree
This is not within what I would call, the V gate family.
The commonalities in V gate devices
1. The presence of a series of escalations in
the strength of the force exerted as magnetic attraction,
upon a mobile and attracted object, by means of a series of magnets.
Typically this is a series of pairs of magnets.
2. The first attraction in the series, exerts the weakest attraction force.
3. The final attraction in the series, exerts the greatest attraction force.
4. The objective being, the escape of the mobile object from the final
attraction in the series by means of momentum.
Quote from: Willy on May 20, 2023, 07:59:05 AM
Agree
This is not within what I would call, the V gate family.
The commonalities in V gate devices
1. The presence of a series of escalations in
the strength of the force exerted as magnetic attraction,
upon a mobile and attracted object, by means of a series of magnets.
Typically this is a series of pairs of magnets.
2. The first attraction in the series, exerts the weakest attraction force.
3. The final attraction in the series, exerts the greatest attraction force.
4. The objective being, the escape of the mobile object from the final
attraction in the series by means of momentum.
V gates also exist with only a single pair of magnets acting as one gate
Such as two bar magnets at an angle
The same effect occurs with less strength using a 1/2 v gate
which is a single magnet at the same angle
Every Magnetic Gate functions exactly the same
They can all be simplified to the Howard Johnson
https://youtu.be/o6F9I5OiSTE (https://youtu.be/o6F9I5OiSTE)
even something as complex as this:
https://youtu.be/gzNyzSS3BYs (https://youtu.be/gzNyzSS3BYs)
As a former competitive cyclist, runner and skier, I know that potential energy (relative height) is a very efficient energy store.
I'm quite fond of "lower path" paradox where a sphere will reach a desitination fast if it's allowed follow a lower path, taking on speed, even if it needs to scale a final uphill to the destination. Gravity can help speed up travel, if you dig a deep tunnel to coast through.
I could imagine the magnet being modeled in a computer, and a path being chosen where the sphere takes a kind of orbital path through its flux influence. Perhaps the sphere doesn't get into deeper flux lines (stronger attraction), at least to the point of being locked in.
Height is gained on the roll up the ramp, at the cost if horizontal velocity into the "exit" point where we're used to see cogging. The combination of scaling the threshold of the peak and the gravitational pull could be enough to escape the magnet and roll toward the next with positive velocity.
If this works where all other attempts didn't, I wouldn't quite know why.
The rotation of the sphere also holds energy that upon slow down up the ramp is transferred into extra roll distance and/or height. Possible more crucially, the approach of any of the magnets is with more potential energy than the velocity observed by the magnet is greater than the mass it's working on. The uphill path prevents the slipping reported and helps extract that flywheel energy, transfer into height.
This immediately makes me wonder what a spindle type roller would do. High friction contact point materials or even a toothed interface between the rolling weight and the ramp, greater percentage of potential energy stored in the very rotation the of effective rolling flywheel.
If there is a builder, or group of builders, with the collective skillset to work on a replication, I hope it's both a fun and fruitful undertaking for them. Once verified, I can't wait to sink my teeth into getting as much surplus energy out as possible, in a design that is less dependent on gravity and orientation. As I see new energy systems right now, it's all about power density and it will be fun to tune the heck out of an anomaly like this.
@Cloxi
There are a few misnomers there i will try to explain
As i stated above: gravity overpowers magnetism in this device
the magnet isnt "lifting the ball"
Also by triangulation of the force vectors as i described,
we can see that even though the ball is moving upward,
which appears to be 'closer' to the magnet....
it is actually moving further away from the Center of the magnet
Which is the point of attraction.
The ball is a sphere: therefore equilibrium is a point where 1/2 of the sphere is
N and 1/2 is S
This is at the center of the bar magnet
Thats where the ball wants to go
Long ago, a member named Clanzer proved that the rotational momentum of the ball
is exactly the same value as the same mass on a cart with wheels
Therefore: the rotational momentum does not add anything that would not otherwise be there
I am still not certain that the ramps "do" anything
We may find the exact same results on a flat track
I've done some tests with balls and ramps, changes in velocity at different speeds
they all seem to follow the normal gravitational curve
and the distance from the center of magnetism where the ramps are:
the magnet isn't having a great affect on anything that ball is doing (up/down)
I'm sure people have seen the "magnetic shotgun"
Where 1 ball is placed at the center of magnetism
and another is allowed to accelerate into it
the ball exiting does so with a much greater force than required to insert the second ball
And the device resets by entrapping the second ball in the first one's place
meaning one energy input can result in multiple repetitive outputs with no additional costs
This has led to many attempts at a looped magnetic gun
Like a circular Newton's Cradle (which by the way cycles much longer than a linear one)
in the magnetic case: the approach increases in velocity with the sq rt of the distance
The exit decreases in negative acceleration with the square of the distance
while the strength of the magnetic field is independent of time:
acceleration and momentum are NOT!
I will note 1 important fact about magnetic gates
This is the permeability of free space
(and to a lesser degree, that of air)
At the boundary condition of the magnetic field is the boundary of a
(weaker) inverse field.
This field can become compressed in arrays or loops of gates
Resulting in a stronger barrier preceding the gate
distance between gates becomes very important under this condition
Too close will slow the ball
Too far and friction slows the ball
So, other than the in the form of the 3D printing file, are there specifications
available some where, of the shapes and dimensions of the two plastic parts,
the ball used and the magnet used in the video @
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WbaRZlUhNM
Quote from: sm0ky2 on May 20, 2023, 03:08:46 PM
Long ago, a member named Clanzer proved that the rotational momentum of the ball
is exactly the same value as the same mass on a cart with wheels
Therefore: the rotational momentum does not add anything that would not otherwise be there
We may find the exact same results on a flat track
You may need to word that a bit more specifically for it to be either correct of false.
When a mass falls along a path that forces rotation that rotation MUST come at the cost if advancement along the path. Same energy contained, just left advancement speed. A spindle on tracks just won't speed up like a ball, let alone a ball with a heavy center surrounded by low density material.
If this doesn't work, I'm sure a flat track will be no better, or even worse.
If it does work, I doubt it will also work flat. Making it work in a more industrial manner would be great fun.
Best might be if someone could convince the inventor to send over a working model. But if someone wants to commit for a replication: EPIC!
In my humble opinion...
The variations of this device from other such magnet ramp designs,
would not result in a self runner.
But still it remains, that I would like to see a practically identical replication done
by someone I trust.