Hi ALL,
user Mike ( HMM) from the gn0sis forum has built a modified
Bedini Cole Window motor which he can run without batteries for
hours and can charge up empty capacitors !
Here is his video which is really amazing !
This is what we havebeen looking for all the time.
It is a classic Lenz law violation !
Here attached is the video of his motor in action.
It is a Windows Media Video WMV File and you need Windows Media Player
or Media Player Classic to view it.
Mike has also documented all the things of his motor.
I will post this and all the pics in the next replies !
Regards, Stefan.
Here are attached to this message
( you must be logged into the forum to get the files)
a few pictures of this breakthrough motor !
Here are some more pics attached.
The modification from Mike is, that
he has wound a trifilar coil ( 3 coils interwoven)
instead of just 2 coils as in the original Bedini-Cole Window motor.
The third coil is used to be put in series with the main second
coil at intervals with a Solid State relay, so the capacitor is charging up much faster
and it keeps the motor spinning.
Regards, Stefan.
Here are the scope shots directly taken at
the 3 coils showing voltage over time.
Attention: the last 3rd coil has a different scope deflection timing.
( it is about 2 times faster,so you can see the pulses better)
Hmmmmm... Looks quite amazing!
One thing I noticed was the voltage of the cap starts climbing before the rotor is even spun. I'm not sure what is giving this motor its excess energy, but I'm planning on replicting it as soon as I can afford the parts.
Great documentation!
Thanks again stefan,
~Dingus
Here are some help tips from Mike( User HMM)
Yes 6 magnets on rotor n-s-n-s-n-s. The key to (over)unity is to time switch 1 correctly this can be done a number of ways. I will help you with all of this but first you must get your motor to run. Follow the first circuit I posted remember to wind the stator with two or more wires bifiler will work fine I use trifiler. Good Luck
The value of the cap is not critical I use 47000uf computer cap although any large electrolytic cap should do. the stator is one coil bifiler wound then split evenly where the shaft goes through.
follow the first cct and yes trigger is smaller wire. The hall effect transistor is to activate sw1 I use a solid state relay for sw1.
wind as much turns as possible try to get above 46 ohm.
the main winding on my motor is 46 ohms
so 40-60 ohms sorry about that
cheers
Mike
in the video the motor was powered by capicitance only. no battery. Trifiler wound
If you add a load the motor will slowly come to a stop.
cheers
Mike
Yes feedback, and play with sw1 timing
**I must tell you I use the third winding on my stator coil as a generator winding to charge the cap up from 0v, then when the transistors begin to pulse the back emf through sw1 brings the voltage on the cap even higher till it levels and the motor is then runing at unity (this is just what I think is hapening and I could be missing somthing here)
OK
Mike
@Marco I don't Know how long the motor can run for, but I always stop it after a few hours or so. I am scared to leave it running unattended (a fire or explosion would not be good)the running voltage is higher when I give it a big spin by hand. so far every time I ran it the voltage has always leveled off some where bellow 12v or so my cap is good up to 25v
More infos from Mike:
The trigger coil is for motor timing, The hall effect is for charge timing.
I had found the motor would not run after a couple wires were swiched around by accident. coil polarity is very important.
>Mike,
>Does your circuit use the exact same components like those that are from that image on >the Bedini page?
yes same as Bedini/Cole.
All components are the same except for the added parts a hall IC and a ss relay and also third winding.
cheers
Mike
My new relay has an LED indicator, I will give it a try.
Main winding is connected at the collectors. follow Bedini/Cole circuit
study the scope shots I posted and you will get an idea of timing. Two EMF spikes per cycle
one more thing before I go
When you go to run your motor have a AM radio close to the stator coil you should here two cracks brodcasted for every magnet pair passing. a quick way to tell if you are hooked up correctly.
cheers mike
This link is very good
http://www.fight-4-truth.com/Schematics.html
must check it out
I learned alot from these illustrations, look at the commutator to see the timing
I use (28 gauge .012 in. main)
(30 gauge .010 in. trigger, generator)
I get a little over 40 ohms each
the main winding is longer than the generator and trigger windings. I did not count #turns sorry.
I must say that my stator coil is wider
Mike
Mike,
Thank you for doing this on an open forum.
Thank you for showing the pictures, drawing, schematics, and scope shots; and thank you for allowing it to be seen by the world.
More infos:
Thats cool mike, I was checking on this site:-
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
.3mm diam = 28gauge
.254 diam = 30 gauge
@ Stefan
I think the third winding is allways charging the cap
the ss relay puts the main winding in series with the third winding at the correct time, take into account the rectifier diode in between them.
Mike
===============
Mike has blown up a few parts of his motor after
letting it run through the whole night !
Probably the voltage on the cap did rise too much !
He wrote then back:
ps: looks like the hall ic is not working and also the PNP, the ss relay is fine
I have no more hall ic's and only a few PNP's.
This suxs
Scope shots were taken dirrectly off the coil.
I will post more detail when I have my motor running again.
cheers Mike
I will scavenge up a hall ic from something.
stefan,
I don't know if all is needed for the circuit.I just know that this is how I got it to run longer. how long I dont know so far maby a couple hours. I belive it is working at or near unity. i will swap the bad parts now and try to get it running again.
As for the posistion of my flywheel magnets I will give that info later after I have finished my testing.
cheers
Mike
Oh and the scope shots, the third winding shot scope is set to diffrent scope timing.
yes the original circuit will charge the cap
my modification charged the cap from 0v faster
yes somthing is wrong with the cap.
If I charge it with 12v it will not hold long
and spark from discharge is week.
Still looking for a hall ic any ideas where to find one 3030
also did anyone find this paticular cap I have only one and the place where I got it, BG Micro no longer has any.
maby another big cap will take its place.
Quick.. Post this information in as many forums as possible.. Make copies of all this information. This looks to be the real deal.. Get the the information out before the suppresion starts.
QuoteOne thing I noticed was the voltage of the cap starts climbing before the rotor is even spun.
I have seen this effect after shorting out large computer caps myself. They will 'bounce' back a few volts immediately after removing the short so that does not worry me. On the skeptic side I could think that with all that wire he could be transmitting energy to the system (RF) and it is using that energy to run. Someone else on this forum did that and had everyone going for awhile. This motor I think is the real deal... The information feels and looks right. Of course until a couple of people actually replicate it there will always be questions but their appears enough information publish to actually replicate.. Time will tell.. I figure less than a week and we will all know. If it is the real deal then I think a Tunecharger may make the most of any excess energy.
http://www.tunecharger.com/perso-24418.htm
Yes, the bouncing of the voltage of a discharged cap is normal.
There are already some people trying to replicate this motor.
In about 2 to 3 days we will know, if these people also
have success with it.
I will post updates.
Many thanks again to Mike to make this publically available.
Regards.Stefan.
Here are still the PDF datasheet Files of the used transistors and the Solid State Relay.
Here is the video of the original
Bedini-Cole motor.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3562588371166049574
You can see, that at the end of this video at about 2:05
the rotor spins also up, after it has stopped, so the cap
already has some voltage left to start the rotor...
But the modification of Mike is much better !
Regards, Stefan.
this is a bit over my head but i will make copies, once it's a proven fact that we have overunity and along with replications, we should mass distribute starting with open source communities.
thank you very much Mike.
peace
The original thread is here:
http://www.gn0sis.com/component/option,com_joomlaboard/Itemid,33/func,view/catid,41/id,3043/#3043
As many people working on this as possible in the same place would be good. We've got three, maybe 4 people attempting to replicate, with one successful replication thus far.
As many independent replicators as possible is what is needed. If we get a ton of people working on this, we can refine it and improve it. Applying principals of other devices as etc.
This, so far, has been a great project, and I'm proud it's happened at my site.
Everyone is welcome if you don't already have accounts there.
Rich
Many thanks to Rich to have hosted it at his site.
Here is an updated circuit diagram Mike just posted there,
attached to this message.
You must be logged in here to the forum to see it.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 14, 2007, 09:53:26 PM
Quick.. Post this information in as many forums as possible.. Make copies of all this information. This looks to be the real deal.. Get the the information out before the suppresion starts.
This motor and circuit has been on John Bedini's website for atleast 7 years, just ignored by everyone. I don't think there is any way to suppress it now as its been out so long. We have suppressed it ourselves by ignoring the info on John Bedini's site, he has always said, all the answers are all on his site, but we have all been blind.
D.
Quote from: CTG Labs on February 15, 2007, 06:05:43 AM
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 14, 2007, 09:53:26 PM
This motor and circuit has been on John Bedini's website for alteast 7 years, just ignored by everyone. I don't think there is any way to suppress it now as its been out so long. We have suppressed it ourselves by ignoring the info on John Bedini's site, he has always said, all the answers are all on his site, but we have all been blind.
D.
Not by everyone!
Das wird sicher einen einfachen Grund haben , warum das scheinbar ignoriert wird . Es gab bestimmt Hunderte Menschen die dies erfolglos probiert haben. Pese
-------------
That will have a simple reason surely, why that is apparently ignored. It gave determines hundreds to peoples the this unsuccessfully tried. Pese
Stefan,
Please ask Mike if alternatives to this Crouzet relay device can be used.
This component seems, "oddly specific." There are many makers of relays. Perhaps others will work as well?
Also, instead of showing a black-box schematic to this device, may we see the relay details in recognizable schematic form?
Oh, and if it is all here, somewhere, then please just tell me that need to develop a flair for the obvious. :)
Thanks,
Rosphere
this is only optocoppler (led to triac /scr)
you can do nothing with this in "bedini?s"
ciruits.
Pese
Here are the Bedini Circuits again:
http://pixerve.de/42507/pese.html
http://pixerve.de/42508/pese.html
Many Ywars in my URK
Might be interesting though to check with other switches, especialy with CMOS transistors (http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/4125) instead of thyristor at the output.
As is known, a thyristor uses a negative resistance region and it would be interesting to know on the same circuit what is the contribution of ss relay, beside Bedini-Cole efect and/or Mike efect.
Thanks for sharing, this very generous from you Mike. Let open-source prove its power now.
Peace.
@ barbosi
you cant use this solid state relais at this DC ciruiits .
Also not an 12 Volt
also the are not fast enough.
real contact relais are not to replace
in some circuits !
This MSC Cmos Opto -Relais are designed for kogic circuits (are fast , but can only used at about 100mAmps. !!!!!
IT IS "DC" BUT : TO WEAK FOR BEDINI CIRCUITS
----------------------
That "negative resistance" from SCR is unknow to me .
I have "invented" the Negistor , Jears before "Popular" Electronics have copied this
from ELEKTUUR , Nederlands , /that was described from me as : "S?gezahn-generator"
If you know more , pls mail to me (see Profil)
G.Pese
Quote from: pese on February 15, 2007, 09:29:38 AM
@ barbosi
you cant use this solid state relais at this DC ciruiits .
Also not an 12 Volt
also the are not fast enough.
real contact relais are not to replace
in some circuits !
This MSC Cmos Opto -Relais are designed for kogic circuits (are fast , but can only used at about 100mAmps.
----------------------
That "negative resistance" from SCR is unknow to me .
I have "invented" the Negistor , Jears before "Popular" Electronics have copied this
from ELEKTUUR , Nederlands , /that was described from me as : "S?gezahn-generator"
If you know more , pls mail to me (see Profil)
G.Pese
By solid state I didn't mean coil&contacts.
For a regular Thyristor the negative region is shown in first picture.
Source: http://www.eng.uwi.tt/depts/elec/staff/rdefour/ee33d/s4_tchar.html
For optic thyristor, see the pdf file, page 3, fig 1.
Source: http://www.opticsexpress.org/viewmedia.cfm?id=119186&seq=0
Regards
@barbosi
also not to use
like negistor you can use
diac diac neon-bulb
but is not Right neg.res.
lamda diodes are better
http://pixerve.de/59336/a-fe-lambda.html
http://pixerve.de/59337/a-fe-lambda.html
http://pixerve.de/59339/a-fe-lambda.html
also read , what you ca fin over KRON (G.E.)
this is als an better way.
Pese
Quote from: pese on February 15, 2007, 09:29:38 AM
@ barbosi
you cant use this solid state relais at this DC ciruiits .
Also not an 12 Volt
also the are not fast enough.
real contact relais are not to replace
in some circuits !
G.Pese
I think Pese is saying, the solid state relay shown in the photo is not intended for DC opertion as it is marked for AC switching and indicates that its switching voltge range starts above 12V. These relays are made for AC and DC switching. The AC versions typically use Triacs whilst the DC versions use FET's for switching. i'm wondering exactly how this particular relay is working in the circuit.
Ok gents, what am I missing here?
The relay is marked for 4-32V DC (control) and 36-550VAC @10A (load). Where is the "12V" figure coming from?
Also, if it can switch AC, why can't it switch DC? I can see how the opposite wouldn't work (using an SS DC relay to switch AC).. but why would there be a problem with this relay in this circuit?
Are you suggesting BS here? I mean, it does *appear* to work just fine as-is!
All I was sugesting was:
1. As shown in datasheet, the relay uses Thyristors/triacs which both have a region of negative resistance. Hence a source of free energy might be those components (and I was not commenting if those are the most eficient components among others)
Having said that,
2. A method to determine if the excess of energy is coming from the relay (aka components with negative resistance), might be to replace the relay with another type whith CMOS at the output. This second type of relay should not have that negative resistance, hence the motor should not sustain its motion.
I was only curious if we can determine where is coming from the excess energy. Is the relay or not? Bottom line, the final task of this quest is to identify the source(s) of free energy and how to tap it(them).
All the best.
I would be interested in the following data:
A) energy used to start motor
B) time motor ran
C) RPM recordings throughout run - (does it decay?)
D) energy used to stop motor - (= or > start?)
E) energy stored in capacitor
A - D + E = usable energy / B = KWH
Also would be useful to know if energy from capacitor could be harvested and to what point it could be discharged to and still power the motor.
Hmm,
I also wonder, how this Solid State Relay really functions...
From the PDF File I posted it can be seen that it is a "Zero Volt Turn On"
model type.
That normally means, that the relay only switches on, when
the applied load voltage crosses the zero region.
Normally these are used to switch AC loads like incand. bulbs at the
zero crossing voltage region and then just switch off,
when the AC is going through zero Volts again, cause they are thyristor
controlled...
Hmm, what also puzzles me, the datasheet also says,it has a delay
of about 8.33 milliseconds to turn on and off..
This seems pretty long,also for normal 220 Volts switching operation
as one 50 Hz wave is already only 20 milliseconds long...
Hmm...
Mike should try it with other switches, as this is indeed
really hard to say, what the SS relay is doing in this circuit.
Much easier to replicate would be a reed relay switch,if this would work
to.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 15, 2007, 11:38:27 AM
...
Hmm, what also puzzles me, the datasheet also says,it has a delay
of about 8.33 milliseconds to turn on and off..
This seems pretty long,also for normal 220 Volts switching operation
as one 50 Hz wave is already only 20 milliseconds long...
...
The delay can be compensated from the sync wheel.
I agree also about your comments concerning the relay.
I guess a faster and easyer method is to replace the relay and hall with a reed switch. Not only is cheaper, but also would help to determine if the relay has a contribution to this. Regardless the lifetime of reed contacts, it would be nice if the
same motor will still run.
Thanks.
Mike posted the voltage on each coil alone
measured by a scope,
when he disconnected the 3 coils from his unit and
measured the voltage alone on each coil and
just did turn the rotor by hand.
He got at the about same RPM:
4.5v ac main winding( 2nd coil)
2.2v ac trigger winding ( 1st coil)
2.8 v ac third winding (3rd coil , induction coil at graetz bridge)
Let's try to resume the facts.
What was introduced in Mike's design?
1. the relay
2. the third coil
3. details about the size of the coils (ohmic)
What we still don't know? (other questions might arise later)
1. Is important to mark in schematic the start of the third coil with respect to the same winding sense?
2. What (hiden) role plays the solid state relay? Can this be replaced with a reed switch? If not, we need to determine what makes all the difference if we use the relay. Can be used another type of solid state relay?
3. What would be an optimum ratio between the windings? The size mathers? How much? (but this point 3 is for tunning, first most important thing is to succesfully replicate the motor by as many as possible).
Any other opinions are more than welcomed.
By studying the scope trace from coil 3, I would sugest also another modification as shown in the picture. It should bring two more spiks on the down slope. It should charge the capacitor faster.
Why are there 2 spikes anyway? beats me for now... other important things are runing now.
Quote from: barbosi on February 15, 2007, 12:41:42 PM
Let's try to resume the facts.
What was introduced in Mike's design?
1. the relay
2. the third coil
3. details about the size of the coils (ohmic)
What we still don't know? (other questions might arise later)
1. Is important to mark in schematic the start of the third coil with respect to the same winding sense?
2. What (hiden) role plays the solid state relay? Can this be replaced with a reed switch? If not, we need to determine what makes all the difference if we use the relay. Can be used another type of solid state relay?
3. What would be an optimum ratio between the windings? The size mathers? How much? (but this point 3 is for tunning, first most important thing is to succesfully replicate the motor by as many as possible).
Any other opinions are more than welcomed.
Does the relay actually turn off?
Is the cap in fact faulty? It would appear to be so.
Quote from: Hoppy on February 15, 2007, 01:08:28 PM
Does the relay actually turn off?
Is the cap in fact faulty? It would appear to be so.
I only resumed what we know and what we don't, trying to get organised some tests ment to extract the theory of operation.
I have not replicated yet the setup, however I would like to understand how this is working.
Here are dual channel scope shots from Mike.
He did scope the main ( 2nd coil) and the trigger coil ( 1st coil)
and the second scope shot is the main coil with the 3rd coil ( induction coil)
This is the voltage on the coils without the coils being connected to anything else.
The rotor just was spun by hand .
You can see, that the main coil has a much higher output voltage, cause
it has more turns of wire.
This test was just to see, how the voltage would look on the coils,
when the rotor was spun by hand.
The induction looks like a real sine wave.
If I used my Newman magnet rotor inside a Newman coil,
I had more like a Sine^2 function induction voltage.
Regards, Stefan.
Attched the 2 pics.
Here are 3 pics from Dave, Marco and Dom,
who are currently replicating the Mike motor.
Dave is only missing his new magnets
and Dom needs to change a few things
on his coil switching and Marco still needs
needs to build the switching circuit.
Hopefully we will soon see a working replication.
Stay tuned.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: barbosi on February 15, 2007, 01:04:17 PM
By studying the scope trace from coil 3, I would sugest also another modification as shown in the picture. It should bring two more spiks on the down slope. It should charge the capacitor faster.
Why are there 2 spikes anyway? beats me for now... other important things are runing now.
Hmm Barbosi,
I wonder, if your idea does not short out
the 3rd coil all in all ?
I guess the blue diode must go somehwere else....hmmm..
ponder...ponder...
@all
An halve wave is now short circuit !
So an full-wave bridge cant work !
Pese
@legendre
The Input (that what is normal the Relay-coil):
is here 4V --- to x Volt DC this is only an driver voltage for an LED inside
(Resistor is build inside)
Also inside is an Photodetector that drive an triac ( possibly also 1 SCR in fullwave bridge) so it van only switch AC . (WITH DC on output Relay will only close and not more open)
Pese
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 15, 2007, 01:57:08 PM
Here are dual channel scope shots from Mike.
He did scope the main ( 2nd coil) and the trigger coil ( 1st coil)
and the second scope shot is the main coil with the 3rd coil ( induction coil)
This is the voltage on the coils without the coils being connected to anything else.
The rotor just was spun by hand .
You can see, that the main coil has a much higher output voltage, cause
it has more turns of wire.
This test was just to see, how the voltage would look on the coils,
when the rotor was spun by hand.
The induction looks like a real sine wave.
If I used my Newman magnet rotor inside a Newman coil,
I had more like a Sine^2 function induction voltage.
Regards, Stefan.
Attched the 2 pics.
And what was disconnected? (the rotor was spun by hand)
Here we miss the magic spikes.
I would love to have a picture with time measurements on the spikes... What is their width? I want to determine the nature of those spikes. Where are they coming from?
Is it me, or the third coil doesn't have a closing path to the ground through the bridge? (maybe I'm just tired)
Barbosi,
this was just a test to see, how high the voltage would go,
if the coils were not connected to anything...
Just a test to see at what RPM what voltage would show
up at the coils...
Yes,with the SS relay the circuit is pretty complicated and I hope
Mike gets his motor to run also just on a reed relay switch
substituted for the SS relay.
Dave said in the other forum,
it is better first to replicate the original Mike motor
with all HIS components and IF we got it to work ,
THEN we should only change things...
Dave,
you are right, I agree.
If Mike gets it to run again with his new
hall IC maybe he can first then post again a few
scope shots at shunts, so we can also see the current
flowing in the device and then later try to substitute
the SS relay versus just a reed switch.
Many thanks.
I agree to, we shouldn't lose the first working thing. In fact it should be preserved for later showcase in a museum. It's a milestone.
In other tone, please have another look to the full_circuit.jpg!
I don't understand how the hall device fire the relay. Must be something wrong in this drawing (or maybe not?????) what gets the relay at its"coil"? Maybe the red trace from the relay should go to GND? Is this a mistake in the drawing?
I think we need a cleaner redraw with complete respect from the working motor.
Also, can we have more pictures: sync wheel & hall, Rotor's magnets (how many)...
Barbosi and all,
please be patient.
Mike is not that fast and probably works on a shoestring budget and
also has only time to work at evenings on it
and is still waiting for his new HALL IC to arrive.
Barbosi, your circuit is wrong, it will short out the 3rd coil.
The hall IC has an open collector transitor, which pulls the internal
LED and series resistor of the SS Relay to ground, when energized by the
rotating magnet at the additional axis sync wheel.
Then it triggers optically the 2 triacs in the SS relay
and makes them conducting..
How the 2 triacs again close and at which exact time
period is not yet clear to me...
It would be best, if Mike could later try to replace
the SS relay with a reedswitch and see, if this will work too...
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 15, 2007, 03:26:02 PM
...
The hall IC has an open collector transitor, which pulls the internal
LED and series resistor of the SS Relay to ground, when energized by the
rotating magnet at the additional axis sync wheel.
...
What hall IC is it? (looking for datasheet)
My point is the hall IC has in input, ground, and output (not important now if is open colector or drain or nothing at all).
The principle is: while near magnet, what is at input is refleted at the output (sometimes inverted)
The way I see it in the picture, the middle pin is ground, the left pin is input, and the remaining pin is the output. The only way I see the relay is "energised", is if the output is inverted. Because the other pin of relay's IN is at "+".
So the type of hall IC is quit important.
If anyone have a second look at the schematic, will notice this "peculiarity".
I apologise if I ofend somehow, someone, but I insist around this subject but this is how we willingly and conciously get the whole information.
With regard to the second diode, I'm not convinced yet it shorts the coil, I rather think a further diferential aproach could take advantage of the second alternance.
But first thing first and most important, lets see this puppy runing again. and have it documented properly.
Thanks.
Other unanswered questios:
1. related to timing (I further retract the sugestion I made concerning the sync wheel), why the motor spins in both directions? Is the hall IC sensitive enough to open while the magnet is still far away?
2. Why the components got burned? Beside hall IC was there any other component? It helps to determine the failure root cause.
3. How much raises the voltage on capacitor?
4. Wouldn't be nice if it would be possible to computerized log the voltage on the cap while the motor is runing for long time?
5. Could it take a load to drive a G field machine at least?
an moter that must not powering and not work , will not take
power from the battery (smallest consumtion!)
see the bedini circuit , its the same without the L3 Coil
dont replace the contact with reed-contact or semiconductors
http://pixerve.de/42508/pese.html
Hi All,
By having again a look at my sloppy posted circuit diagramm
and at the main scopeshot,
I did redraw, how the circuit looks,
when all transistors are conducting.
As coil 1 ( trigger coil) plays no role
in energy output, I have not drawn it into the circuit.
Attached the compensation circuit.
I just have checked how possibly the main coil
voltage scope shot works.
Have a look at this:
The flat line in the scope shot is the DC voltage
level of the cap.
The first spike is the switch off of the SS relay.
At this time current still flows from Main coil to 3rd coil,
as the 3rd coil has less induction voltage.
Then the second spike is the switch off of the transitors and the main coil is then again floating at the scope
and shows its induction voltage from the magnet rotor.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 15, 2007, 02:32:40 PM
Dave said in the other forum,
it is better first to replicate the original Mike motor
with all HIS components and IF we got it to work ,
THEN we should only change things...
This is all well and good, but has anyone had success in finding this part?
I searched and found that it is an obsolete part. Mike had better find alternative parts that are readily available or his design will be obsolete as well.
What else can we use here Mike?
This seems to be the only stumbling block. Mike gives wire diameters and resistance values so we can calculate a coil length if we need to, (or even adjust lengths/turns as we go.) However, we can not adjust a missing component.
Okay, Mike came back today and announcing this:
OK guys I got the hall ic and the motor is working again
here are the scope shots taken across cap neg. and ss relay output before diode.
scope set at 2v per div. at 10 ms per div.
first shot is with hall sensor hooked up and the second is without it hooked up
scope shots
taken across cap neg. and ss relay output before diode.
scope neg to cap neg
I had another look.
The transistors turn on and off at A and C
and the SS Relay turns on and off at B and C.
If Mike would shift the on/off timing of the
SS Relay just into the center of the transistor on/off
period, there where the wavehill is highest, he could
probably get even more charging out of the cap, cause the
current is higher then inside the coils ?
Or is the coil current also 90 degrees shifted versus the
coil current as normal coil theory states ???Hmm...
At least this could be easily tried, if Mike would
shift his magnet on the sync wheel a few degrees forward
or backward...or just fix the sync wheel a few degrees
shifted to the axis..
Mike can you try this ?
So I guess the conducting Ontime of the SS Relay is between
the 2 spikes.
What puzzles me is, that if the hall sensor was put off,
we still see an Ontime of the SS Relay..... ????
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 15, 2007, 07:58:48 PM
Okay, Mike came back today and announcing this:
OK guys I got the hall ic and the motor is working again
Perhaps Mike could put some sort of spark gap on his cap to prevent overcharging, then see how long it runs?
Oh, and please ask Mike exactly where we can order this obsolete Crouzet part, GN-84131100?
Rosphere--All must contribute.
Hey All.
I think that everyone should be focusing on getting replication information from Mike instead of asking him to do this and that test. More people need to replicate and then the questions can be divided among the working replications. As it is now poor Mike is going to have his head spinning from trying to do all the request tests. It appears now there are several people going their own way for replication without trying to duplicate exactly what Mike has done before changing the mix. This is doomed to failure. Mike appears to have a working unit so that is the best starting point instead of everyone thinking that they 'know' how it works.
..soap box on...
First there needs to be one or two moderators of a sticky post that contains exact replication information and these moderators should be the ones that can only update the post with current information. Already I see half a dozen circuit diagrams with conflicting information being posted. Which one is correct. We need a common depository of information such as wire gauge, winding resistance, size of form, magnets used, parts used, etc.... without having to read through hundreds of posts some of which are conflicting. This will also reduce the stress on Mike as everyone is asking the same questions every twenty posts. First Mikes states the resistance is 40 ohms and then it is 46 ohms of the windings. Some people think that this is trival but this can make a very big difference as it pertains to the length of wire used and the number of windings Mike put on the motor since he did not count the number of turns. At the current direction we will not have one working replication and people will be pissed at Mike when they should be pissed at themselves for not performing an exact replication. Please.. someone get this organized...
... soapbox off...
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 15, 2007, 10:01:20 PM
I think that everyone should be focusing on getting replication information from Mike instead of asking him to do this and that test.
... soapbox off...
I do not care if uses my spark gap suggestion. That was for his benefit. I believe I read here somewhere that he blew out his last test rig leaving it running all right. I did not ask him to fix it and restart it. He did this on his own. If his cap could discharge once in a while then his motor may still be running in the morning. ::)
And I am trying to get replication information. Every part on this thing is easy, except for the one obsolete black-box item. If Mike could replace this with a more common, still in production part then maybe there would be more replicating going on and a lot less whining. ::)
@All,
According to http://solid-state-relay.crouzet-usa.com/
Crouzet part, GN-84131100
is replaced by 84137100
Let me introduce my friend: google!
AM
QuoteAnd I am trying to get replication information.
Me too. My point exactly. With everyone asking Mike to try this or that configuration the needed replication information is comming at a trickle pace. Basic information is missing or buried deep in post. Information I would like answered so I can start replicating are:
1. Size of form used for coil
2. Exact resistance of each coil and the size of wire with that goes with each resistance reading. From number 1 and 2 here we can figure out how many turns he has on each of the coils. I do not want to try to wind the coils by guessing the number of turns only to find I was off by 10 turns.
3. Magnets used and source for magnets.
I do not need scope shots of this or that. I do not need him to try reed switchs or other setups. These things I can do when I have one running. I just want to duplicate what he has first then we all can figure out how it works later..
Quote from: Rosphere on February 15, 2007, 08:11:59 PM
Perhaps Mike could put some sort of spark gap on his cap to prevent overcharging, then see how long it runs?
If you wired a spark plug to the cap, it would fire when a propper wattage is reached. Much like shorting it with a screw driver, but the bigger the gap the larger the cap. heh!
Good luck,
~Dingus
@all
some help to semiconductors.
in bedinis circuit are the mps8099 8599
it do not neet this special type number.
this is nothing else ordinaery chip inside
als following us or european type numbers.
(i selled over years transistor-chips to
transistor manufacturers - so i have the knowledge)
(give attention that this ony an 500mA device that
(possibly can replaced with 1Amp devices.)
Origine devices are :
US types 2N als EN MPS 2907(A) PNP also 2905
2222(A) NPN also 2219
Euopean BC327 PNP
BC337 NPN
If some ask over semiconductors ,pls use my e-mail
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 15, 2007, 10:01:20 PM
Hey All.
I think that everyone should be focusing on getting replication information from Mike instead of asking him to do this and that test. More people need to replicate and then the questions can be divided among the working replications. As it is now poor Mike is going to have his head spinning from trying to do all the request tests. It appears now there are several people going their own way for replication without trying to duplicate exactly what Mike has done before changing the mix. This is doomed to failure. Mike appears to have a working unit so that is the best starting point instead of everyone thinking that they 'know' how it works.
..soap box on...
First there needs to be one or two moderators of a sticky post that contains exact replication information and these moderators should be the ones that can only update the post with current information. Already I see half a dozen circuit diagrams with conflicting information being posted. Which one is correct. We need a common depository of information such as wire gauge, winding resistance, size of form, magnets used, parts used, etc.... without having to read through hundreds of posts some of which are conflicting. This will also reduce the stress on Mike as everyone is asking the same questions every twenty posts. First Mikes states the resistance is 40 ohms and then it is 46 ohms of the windings. Some people think that this is trival but this can make a very big difference as it pertains to the length of wire used and the number of windings Mike put on the motor since he did not count the number of turns. At the current direction we will not have one working replication and people will be pissed at Mike when they should be pissed at themselves for not performing an exact replication. Please.. someone get this organized...
... soapbox off...
Hello:
new to this forum. Have working O/U pulse motors on the bench... BUT don't ask for details as the work is proprietary! Hydrocontrol above is correct, you are not asking the right questions, and not paying enough attention to the exact details of Mike's work.
A few turns the wrong way, wrong size, barium vs strontium ferrite magnets, and exact timing - any one of these parameters wrong by a small amount and your version will either not work, or work too poorly to overcome friction!
I have precise optical encoder/computer based feedback/control of Fire and Duty cycle timing of the pulses which I can change on the fly. Resolved to 1/2 degree of mechanical motion of the rotor. You can only get a gain within a very narrow regime of timing of the FIRE [on] and DUTY[span before off] settings - IF you have everything else right. i.e. geometry, materials, coil, core of coils etc.
Also it appears Mike has this wired inadvertently backwards based on the original scope traces. It is not wired to be a "motor" based on the main coil trace. The ON condition voltage should be the sum of the capacitor or battery voltage, plus the intrinsic Counter EMF being produced by the main coil as rotor turns!!!
The fact his trace shows the ON time at near zero volts, says the main coil is wired as a generator! (and applying an outside voltage to the generator mode, will then cancel the Counter EMF so to speak, and draw all the capacitor's charge out as a high current, dropping the voltage to near zero)
The exact size and radius and spacing of the magnets along with the exact material of the magnets is ultra important. Also Bedini's drawing shows a hexagonal steel core inside the rotor magnets for flux return path, and this will interact with the coils aside from magnets too. Has Mike used a steel core or air core for the rotor magnets?
I have a pulse motor version which can interchange coils of different wire size and turns counts. one coil produces 105% gain and another 135% gain all things equal. Also the "best" coil and core, and altering the magnets from 20mm dia x 40 mm long, to 25mm dia x 6 mm long alters the gain significantly too. These changes aside from a very exact and narrow window of timing settings being required!
Ask the right questions or you will NEVER replicate this machine! I would like to replicate it, but with a fully equipped CNC machine shop and extensive electronics and instrumentation - I am unable to even start without more detail. Stabbing in the dark could take years and hundreds of trial and error steps.
Mike is getting in the range of 200% to 300% gain else it could not self run. Something in his details is completely different than a "normal" pulse motor set up, as the best I have gotten so far is ~135% gain.
Cheers.
Hi DMBoss,
great to have you here !
You are very welcome.
Yes, unfortunately Mike is a bit slow in answering questions
and we have to be patient.
He seems to have a heavy job besides his hobby,
so gets only time in the nights to play
with his "toy".
He now answered, that he will try to build a second device,
so he could replicate it himself.
I hope he will soon answer our questions to the exact
ohmic resistance of all 3 coils
and all other exact specifications.
Guys, documentation is very important.
I have lost already a circuit in a Xenon tube-
oscillator setup, where I only
realized later, that I had more gain in output,
but did change a few wires and did not note the
exact setup and later could not find anymore the exact
old setup...too bad..
so please document instantly all your circuits, so you could
later replicate it yourself.
Many thanks and be patient with Mike.
P.S: John Bedini did send me an email and will
soon present his motor on his website also.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: DMBoss on February 16, 2007, 06:03:42 AM
Also it appears Mike has this wired inadvertently backwards based on the original scope traces. It is not wired to be a "motor" based on the main coil trace. The ON condition voltage should be the sum of the capacitor or battery voltage, plus the intrinsic Counter EMF being produced by the main coil as rotor turns!!!
The fact his trace shows the ON time at near zero volts, says the main coil is wired as a generator! (and applying an outside voltage to the generator mode, will then cancel the Counter EMF so to speak, and draw all the capacitor's charge out as a high current, dropping the voltage to near zero)
To Illustrate my comment above, please see the attached image of a scope trace. Scope is a 4 channel Tektronics TDS5034B with differential voltage probes, and clamp on current probe.
Channel 4 monitors the FIRE pulse from the digital feedback and control system using an optical encoder and PCI card with software to provide the pulse motor controller (using high capacity MOSFET's to switch fast and provide BEMF feedback or shunting). Scope is triggered on the negative going pulse of the FIRE signal; which is an absolute shaft position based on the settings of the software and the absolute encoder signal.
Channel 1 is the coil voltage, and channel 2 is the current to that coil. The math 1 waveform is the True instantaneous power of the coil. (measure and gating for the actual True power are not on in this shot)
You can see the intrinsic "Counter EMF" in the voltage trace before the drive power pulse is initiated. The applied drive pulse (here from a battery) must rise above this "CEMF" produced by the motor coil/magnet else motor force will not occur.
Mike's trace shows no such condition. He has got it wired "backwards" to normal "motor" operation. (which is part of the key as to why he gets something anomalous in my opinion) (combined with his third coil and it's switching regime too)
Cheers
Hi DMBoss,
I know from former communication with you,
that you are a real expert and it is nice to see,
that you have these great measurement equipment and setups
and can tell us some real insights into the theory also.
Maybe you can try to replicate the Mike setup much more quickly
than others can do this over here.
It seems Mike?s setup is a Motor/Generator all in one device.
It also seems, that his main coil has more windings than the other 2
coils seems to be important , so the counter EMF is maybe suppressed
at the right moments...and the rotor so can freely move on or
gets a push forward...
Please post more of your insights, when you have the time to do so.
Many thanks in advance and please let?s crack the theory behind this
Mike motor together by brainstorming.
I hope Mike will soon post more scopeshots, so we
can compare it with your results.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: AhuraMazda on February 15, 2007, 11:02:42 PM
@All,
According to http://solid-state-relay.crouzet-usa.com/
Crouzet part, GN-84131100
is replaced by 84137100
Let me introduce my friend: google!
AM
Ah, very nice. Thank you. Let us now hope that interchangeability is not affected; will this replacement part work equally well?
I suppose it would be rude to ask Mike to try this replacement part. So, I will purchase one and slap it on my,... well, I guess I will need to build the rest of the motor from the ground up before I can try it out.
But I might accidentally introduce a random design variable or two. If my replication does not work then do I blame the replacement part or do I blame something else?
Stefan, the other three at gnosis you mentioned earlier, do any of them plan to use this replacement part found by AhuraMazda, or some other part?
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 16, 2007, 02:54:23 AM
I do not need scope shots of this or that. I do not need him to try reed switchs or other setups. These things I can do when I have one running. I just want to duplicate what he has first then we all can figure out how it works later..
I agree.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 16, 2007, 06:41:32 AM
Hi DMBoss,
I know from former communication with you,
that you are a real expert and it is nice to see,
that you have these great measurement equipment and setups
and can tell us some real insights into the theory also.
Maybe you can try to replicate the Mike setup much more quickly
than others can do this over here.
It seems Mike?s setup is a Motor/Generator all in one device.
It also seems, that his main coil has more windings than the other 2
coils seems to be important , so the counter EMF is maybe suppressed
at the right moments...and the rotor so can freely move on or
gets a push forward...
Please post more of your insights, when you have the time to do so.
Many thanks in advance and please let?s crack the theory behind this
Mike motor together by brainstorming.
I hope Mike will soon post more scopeshots, so we
can compare it with your results.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan:
My results use a much different geometry at present. And there may indeed be some "quantum" level interaction with the actual transistors here, which my controller can not duplicate.
But the root details of the material, geometry, coil parameters are of utmost importance no matter what manner of control is used.
As to insights into the underlying principles - I am limited due to some proprietary concerns in what I can share. Besides I do not believe that "freely sharing" info is the best way to get this technology to the masses. I have proven on the bench that 100 year old patents work, and are over unity. A patent is the most public of documents, in a standardized format so it can be replicated. If literally hundreds of such "free sharing" occurrances to date has not done anything then sharing alone will not do the job!
Something useful has to be marketed to the massed to convince them, and to challenge the dogma of science to get off their programmed doctrine. We know they will simply ignore, debunk with lies, or dismiss published accounts of O/U. But a device that works, sold to millions of people, and they [acedemics] can no longer ignore it.
Recall pundits scribbled equations on blackboards for months after the Wright Brother's flew a plane, apparently proving mathematically that heavier than air flight was impossible! So even with one working model - or a dozen they will not change their dogma!
Sorry to preach here - but selling products that are O/U to the masses is the only way to change a large number of hearts and minds. And then some things have to be kept quiet to appease the investors along the way.
Yes Mike is combining motor and generator action here by adding the 3rd coil. You can "change hats" too as every motor can act as a generator and every generator as a motor. That's part of the key here....
I already have a pretty good idea why his machine works - but need the details to replicate it properly. (some posts identified the right idea, but put it in the wrong place when speaking of negative impedance) (if he has inverted the polarity of normal "motor" action as I postulated, then this makes a serious negative impedance action at the "main" coil - but alone this does nothing but make rotor drag - there's more to it)
cheers.
Quote from: Rosphere on February 16, 2007, 06:52:12 AM
Quote from: AhuraMazda on February 15, 2007, 11:02:42 PM
@All,
According to http://solid-state-relay.crouzet-usa.com/
Crouzet part, GN-84131100
is replaced by 84137100
Let me introduce my friend: google!
AM
But I might accidentally introduce a random design variable or two. If my replication does not work then do I blame the replacement part or do I blame something else?
If I may attempt to clarify my cautions about replicating without exact details:
these devices are not unlike an internal combustion engine, in the sense MANY exacting parameters must be just right else you get no "fire"!
you must have the geometry of the engine right, the valve timing, the spark timing and energy, the fuel air mixutre has to be in a very narrow range - the outside air temperature affects the vaporization of the fuel - etc.
Anyone who has had their car not fire on a cold wet morning with bag plug wires knows what I mean!
Now before you ever knew how to make such an engine work, you see one and think you can go to your basement and make your own work! Not so easy unless you know all the exact details of the operating parameters!
Get any one of the many influencing parameters out of the working envelope, and your car won't start. Same with this device in an analogy sense.
It may be simple, but not necessarily easy!
To answer, you either blame yourself for not having all the details right, or Mike's machine didn't work. I cannot see anything in his video to lead me to believe his machine does not work though. But there may be hidden aspects - some impurity or flaw in a material or incorrectly relayed connections or the like.... or as mentioned a few hundred turns difference in coil could make it not work too!
Cheers.
Here is a writeup of user DOM,
who has tried to replicate the Mike motor,
but has notyet the right coil configuration.
But it is a nice guide for people wanting to rebuild the Mike motor.
I post this in 2 version, one in Microsoft WORD format
and one in OpenOffice ODT format.
As we are looking for OpenSource energy publishing,
we can also use OpenSource software.
Regards, Stefan.
Here is the OpenOffice ODT version of the DOM document
attached to this message.
( You must be logged into the forum to be able to download it)
heres a bunch of pictures and the video from the overunity forum, and some from gn0sis.
http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/bedinicole/bedinicolepack1.zip (http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/bedinicole/bedinicolepack1.zip)
http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/bedinicole/bedinicolepack1withoutvideo.zip (http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/bedinicole/bedinicolepack1withoutvideo.zip)
also, heres the gn0sis doc
http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/bedinicole/My_Replication_of_Windows_Bendini.doc (http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/bedinicole/My_Replication_of_Windows_Bendini.doc)
looking forward to seeing the john bedini version of mikes thing.
Stefan,
Can you create ONE sticky with a list of questions and then fill them in as they are answered. I see no point in me (or anyone else) blindly building a replication if the basic information is not there to replicate from. I would love to try to replicate this but without correct information it is a waste of my time and materials. The form size of the coils is very important as well as wire size, each wires resistance, direction of windings, type of magnets, magnet purchase source, core material that magnets are attached too, shaft material, etc..
The number of turns on the form is critical due to the magenetic field cutting across the # wire lines and since Mike did not count the number of turns we will need the above information to try to back calculate the number of turns. My initial calculations indicate the 600 feet of 28g wire was used but it makes a difference if that is spread over a 6, 8, or 12 inch diameter form as it will change the actual number of turns. Direction of turns can be critical as well. We need the basic information and it does not appear to exists so everyone is just randomly trying things. This is not a good way to replicate.
No offence to Dom but posting information of what Dom did is interesting but since Dom's version is not self running it only muddies what is the correctly needed information. We can not have everyone building one like Dom's only to find out that Dom's will not work. We need everyone to build one like Mike's first and at the moment only Mike can provide that information that we need. Please Mike.. Take a couple of hours to measure and document what you have then post that information so the rest of us can start a real replication.. Thanks, Tom :)
Stefan,
I have few simple questions if you could ask:
1. The trifilar winding suggest all 3 coils have the same lenght. Did Mike use the trifilar winding in his motor?
2. Where is the start of the third coil? The schematic could be updated with just a simple dot.
Thanks.
Hi,
Is it possible to use one coil, and curcuit, for each pair of magnets in the rotor?
One claims this is not an overunity motor, but what about the loss in bearings and air resistance? To overcome that, the motor has to be, right ?
Br.
Vidar
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 14, 2007, 10:38:36 PM
Here is the video of the original
Bedini-Cole motor.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3562588371166049574
You can see, that at the end of this video at about 2:05
the rotor spins also up, after it has stopped, so the cap
already has some voltage left to start the rotor...
But the modification of Mike is much better !
Regards, Stefan.
This motor seem to slow down right after he stop spinning it by hand. I can see this by study the "interference" between cameras picture per second and the rotating magnets. When he stop this by hand, there is still power inside the capacitor. and together with the switching system the capacitor runs the motor for a short while, while charging out...
Br.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on February 16, 2007, 09:30:47 AM
Hi,
Is it possible to use one coil, and curcuit, for each pair of magnets in the rotor?
One claims this is not an overunity motor, but what about the loss in bearings and air resistance? To overcome that, the motor has to be, right ?
Br.
Vidar
Correct. It IS over unity if it can self power against the bearing and wind friction. Friction is an "output" and in fact heats the room!!!!
If there is no battery or nuclear source, and it will self run after giving it a shove, and continue to increase the capacitor voltage while self turning the rotor, it is over unity - none can argue otherwise!
is it "useful"? - one can argue that line of thought, but what is "useful" is subjective. if you want to heat some space, or if you want only shaft output - these two have different definitions of what is useful!
Conservation doctrine says that if you isolate a system, then the energy input to system must equal energy output - period end of argument. If you have no visible input yet are heating the bearings and moving air due to the rotor motion, these are in fact energy outputs and local conservation has been upset! (but not if you consider the underlying energy stored in the vacuum - the fallacy of conservation doctrine is the "isolated system" qualifier. Physics freely admits there is no such thing as a truly isolated system in universe) (you have an energy pump from the unseen vacuum of what ever you choose to call this energy reservoir)
cheers
Hi Stefan,
Always keep an eye on you site and this thread is a doozie. Do you have a timing diagram for one magnet/coil/Hall effect cycle? The scope shots are good but the label is imcomplete. I believe the TIMING and duty cycle of the pulses are absolutely critical to the operation of this device.
It appears from the schematic that the cap is always charged by the 3 coil via the bridge rectifier and additional energy is shot in via the single diode/hall effect sensor/SS relay at specific times. Can you tell from the scope shots just when the Hall effect/SS relay connect to the cap to push an additional burst into that cap relative to the motor pulses?
Has Mike also said that he has had a successful run using just reed relays for the additional boost/pulse circuit?
I think it is also most important that we understand the theory and principal and not get hung up on this wire, that wire, this part, that part............
It would seem that the basic Bedini motor also with a third winding would work in this circuit!
Thanks
Ben K4ZEP
Hi all,
Mike says the power coil is about 46 ohms and 28 guage
and the trigger and 3rd winding is a little over 40 ohms
and 30 guage. he says the power coil is longer than trigger
and 3rd so he obviously didn't wind them together or he did
and ran out of trigger and 3rd wire but had power wire left
and kept winding that.
He says he didn't count turns.
46 ohms and 28 guage
Is it accurate that 28 guage has 0.06489691929951409 ohms per foot
and if so 46/0.06489691929951409 = 708.816 feet long. That is
exactly how long that wire is if it is at 20 degrees celsius
or 68 F. That is at almost room temp. I only used a calculator
assuming this temp for the ohms/foot for 28guage.
Does this calculation look accurate?
Unless knowing the ohms of the 30 guage windings, we can't
know the length.
But if a little over 40, lets say 41 ohms and 30 gauge at same temp.
ohms/foot is: 0.10319014368443319
so 41 / 0.10319014368443319 = 397.324 feet long.
That is a huge difference in length between the two.
With 708 feet of 28 guage and 397 of 30 guage for 2 wires,
do you think the looks of Mike's window motor coil can have that
much wire?
looking at the foot long of each I would guess he had
700 feet of 28 and 400 feet of 30 X 2
That would seem to be a logical rounded length for him to have
or purchase or whatever.
What do you all think? Does the calculations above jive?
Thanks,
Aaron
Similar results I got here, hence the trifilar winding I think is more a recomandation rather than the way Mike did it.
Also, I believe he originaly started with 2 coils, attempting to replicate Benini-Cole motor. The very same coils (possibly bifilar winding) were used later when he added the third coil.
To bad, it seems he didn't record how he manufactured the coils.
It seems though Mike is trying now to replicate his own motor, so hopefully he'll be successful and will provide more info about the coils and others.
Cross fingers.
it looks like the magnets are cheap $1 rectangle radio shack magnets
stacked 2 on top of each other and place every 60 degrees nsnsns.
can this be confirmed?
Those magnets are about 1" wide and 2" long.
The outer spool ends look about 1 magnet length long or about 2"
but the inner spool that the magnets are glued to looks about 1.5".
the magnets are about 1/2" thick so 4 magnet thickness + spool
that is around 3.5" total rotor width from magnet face to magnet face
180 degrees from each other. Can that spool and magnet configuration
dimensions be confirmed?
Looking at the pic, it does look like the coil can have that much wire
700' of 28 and 400 each of 30
The coil looks about 3 magnet lengths long so almost 6"..maybe 5-5.5".
It looks about 4 magnet widths tall so 4".
Anyway, that is the dimentions of the wrapping of the coil it seems.
Can this dimension be confirmed?
I'd like to make it just like Mike and knowing the wire length, coil wrap
dimensions, magnet type and size and spool size. when that is known,
good duplication can be started I think.
Thanks,
Aaron
Dear all,
Is anyone building? Or just watching?
I am just waiting the arrival of magnets and will be able to present (I hope) some results on Monday.
Dave.
Quote from: CTG Labs on February 16, 2007, 02:04:46 PM
Dear all,
Is anyone building? Or just watching?
I am just waiting the arrival of magnets and will be able to present (I hope) some results.
Dave.
I started the mechanical part, but I'm short on SS relay. What type is your hall IC? Do you know if is the same as Mike is using?
Thanks.
Hi,
For now I justed used a Hall IC I had laying around. I figured that I would use what I have first to check the results, then if no luck I will order the exact (as best as possible) parts that Mike has. (no point ordering extra if another Hall IC will work)
Dave.
Quote from: qiman on February 16, 2007, 01:54:04 PM
it looks like the magnets are cheap $1 rectangle radio shack magnets
stacked 2 on top of each other and place every 60 degrees nsnsns.
can this be confirmed?
Those magnets are about 1" wide and 2" long.
The outer spool ends look about 1 magnet length long or about 2"
but the inner spool that the magnets are glued to looks about 1.5".
the magnets are about 1/2" thick so 4 magnet thickness + spool
that is around 3.5" total rotor width from magnet face to magnet face
180 degrees from each other. Can that spool and magnet configuration
dimensions be confirmed?
Looking at the pic, it does look like the coil can have that much wire
700' of 28 and 400 each of 30
The coil looks about 3 magnet lengths long so almost 6"..maybe 5-5.5".
It looks about 4 magnet widths tall so 4".
Anyway, that is the dimentions of the wrapping of the coil it seems.
Can this dimension be confirmed?
I'd like to make it just like Mike and knowing the wire length, coil wrap
dimensions, magnet type and size and spool size. when that is known,
good duplication can be started I think.
Thanks,
Aaron
From http://www.crouzet-usa.com/catalog/_gnip20.shtml
The dimensions of ss relay: 2.250" x 1.750" x 1.380"
You can compare now with magnet dimensions you assumed.
Hi Stefan,
I was reading EMdevices' comments on gn0stic site and I copletely agree with his observations related to the spikes.
Please let him know about another experiment I was working on, initiated by Ossie Callan:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1868.0.html
It has scope pictures too.
This might help to increase the number of spikes, hence the energy stored on capacitor.
Meanwhile I will try to see how I could use Ossie's schematic for a similar efect and try to run from capacitor only. Should I say the multiple spark were from a reed switch? I don't want to make people nervous, so I won't say it... ::)
Regards.
I would like to build one myself. I have 6 pcs 5mm x 5mm x 100mm neo-magnets. This should do I hope. I also would like to see the timing diagram for everything. it's easier to build when the drawings and timing is correct.
I see some discussions around the coils, and how many windings there are. We know all necessary data except the length for one turn. So it should be easy to calculate the number of turns. However, I do not think the number of turns is critical - an approximate should do.
Br.
Vidar
Hi All,
9 pages of messages in 2 days, this project is on fire!!
Solid state relay:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=182278
about 25GBP
Expensive, so I suggest the chip type solid state relay is a better alternative.
Lower operating voltage/current.
No ferrous core means you need hundreds of turns of thin wire to get any kind of voltage induced in the coil.
Using neo magnets will probably allow the use of thicker wires, but it is probably better to start off with ceramic 8 magnets first (much cheaper).
I am keen to get started on this project. This looks like the real thing this time.
You can strip the hall effect IC out of a CPU fan motor/floppy disk drive.
Regards
Rob
Dave wrote:
QuoteIs anyone building? Or just watching?
I want to. I have a lot of the parts to at least start. I have access to a machine shop. The only things is I may be short on is wire. I am waiting until Mike post some feedback for the questions I asked (and others) a few post back concerning construction. I want to at least start building with the correct information instead of guessing so I have a shot on a working replication.. This random replication without enough detail is going to kill the replications because they most likely will not work. Things like not enough turns, or too many, or winding the wrong direction are going to be killers for this replication project. Starting with a true replications is the only sure way for success and a true replication requires detailed information. I know on the other forum EM has all sorts of ideas, theories and shortcuts he is posting for making a motor which I feel is great but is diluting the real focus of a true replication of Mike's motor which I thought was the goal. If EM actually gets a working motor I would be willing to replicate but he would have to have detailed information which is where I am with Mike's motor right now. The proof is going to be in the details. Mike appears to have done something unique otherwise all these Bendi replications would be self-running years ago. Later, Tom :)
Quote from: barbosi on February 16, 2007, 03:11:37 PM
Hi Stefan,
I was reading EMdevices' comments on gn0stic site and I copletely agree with his observations related to the spikes.
Please let him know about another experiment I was working on, initiated by Ossie Callan:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1868.0.html
It has scope pictures too.
This might help to increase the number of spikes, hence the energy stored on capacitor.
Meanwhile I will try to see how I could use Ossie's schematic for a similar efect and try to run from capacitor only. Should I say the multiple spark were from a reed switch? I don't want to make people nervous, so I won't say it... ::)
Regards.
I noticed also that EMdevices has ready a litle motor setup to build. Please let him know that modified Ossie_motor can be tested pretty fast (faster that me at the moment) according to the next schematic. I missed the neon lamp on the colector, but if he reads the post (including my observations/explanations) I indicated, he will get it.
Thanks and I apologise, don't want to hog the thread, but we might be on something here.
Hi Stefan,
Fantastic work! I've been looking for ages for something like this.
Eventually.. I'd love to replicate this experiment, but for now I was wondering if I could help by creating detailed and clear cad diagrams for the electronics and rotor setup you have working there.
I think that would help others (and me) to replicate this without making obvious mistakes. Cad stuff is what I do professionally and working on diagrams for this would help me understand it more.
Anyway the offer is there. Drop me a mail at charles_machin@fastmail.fm for some cad examples or to discuss this further.
Thanks, Charles
Quote from: DMBoss on February 16, 2007, 07:05:08 AM
Something useful has to be marketed to the massed to convince them, and to challenge the dogma of science to get off their programmed doctrine. We know they will simply ignore, debunk with lies, or dismiss published accounts of O/U. But a device that works, sold to millions of people, and they [acedemics] can no longer ignore it.
Recall pundits scribbled equations on blackboards for months after the Wright Brother's flew a plane, apparently proving mathematically that heavier than air flight was impossible! So even with one working model - or a dozen they will not change their dogma!
Sorry to preach here - but selling products that are O/U to the masses is the only way to change a large number of hearts and minds. And then some things have to be kept quiet to appease the investors along the way.
I sure agree with you there! I'll extend that and think that even if you drive up to a debunker's house in a fuelless car and take them for a 2000 Km drive in it, they'd still deny it - it's a metaphysical thing.
Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona, US
http://HoytStearns.com
Hi,
Just looking over Mike's circuit diagram that he sketched.
The SS relay appears to divert a back emf pulse (from the main coil) via a diode through the FWBR into the capacitor while the pnp transistor is switched on.
I think this circuit needs the two transistors, for powering up the main coil, to allow this flexibilty.
Does anyone else agree with this idea?
Did Mike say the motor will run for several hours without the SS relay?
I have watched the video several times and you can see the rotor speed up by probably 2x or even 3x the initial speed when started by hand.
I have loads of ideas for improving the flux density through the coil (coil sets) by sandwiching the coil between 2 rotating magnets in a disk layout - but first to re-create Mike's masterpiece.
Rob
.
Well, I've started my replication of it, and I have to say it's going quite well. Rotor's done, I've got a good shaft and bearings, I've got a full set of (hopefully) appropriate electronics and the coil winding is in progress.
My only problem is the lack of information on the method of coil winding, that is troubling me the most, as far as the replication is concerned.
I wish we knew whether Mike's coils are true bifilar/trifilar wound? (ie 2/3 wires next to each other wound simultaneously (?)) or are they simply wound one after another and squashed together into one large coil.
As it stands, my first stator is going to be basically one coil wound after another, because I've only got one spool of wire (pulled out of mains wiring of a 12V trannie), although I'm winding them on a wide flat spool, so each winding is on top of each other and once they've finished and squashed together each winding will be mixed with each of the others.
Anyway, I'm photo documenting the entire process, I'll post them once I've got further into it and have some results.
Andrew
QuoteAm I missing something here? as I cannot see that this could be anything but an increase
In the total energy of the system. but the builder states otherwise?
The builder is just being cautious as most good builders would be. He is afraid of some measurement error or some unknown effect to come crashing down on him so he is being like a good researcher and being skeptical of what is happening. More of a denial effect.
Hoyt wrote :
QuoteI sure agree with you there! I'll extend that and think that even if you drive up to a debunker's house in a fuelless car and take them for a 2000 Km drive in it, they'd still deny it - it's a metaphysical thing.
Right on. If any of us get a working replication many of us will just watch it for hours thinking that 'this can not be happening' because we have been almost conditioned to accept that it is not possible. Once it sinks in we will start to see that we may have been lied to for years.. That is why I want to get my own working replication going so I can watch it for a few hours and let reality set in. Then I can let others watch it for hours and watch the reality show on their faces.. That would be worth it.. Later, Tom :)
Quote from: corona on February 16, 2007, 09:22:03 PM
Well, I've started my replication of it, and I have to say it's going quite well. Rotor's done, I've got a good shaft and bearings, I've got a full set of (hopefully) appropriate electronics and the coil winding is in progress.
My only problem is the lack of information on the method of coil winding, that is troubling me the most, as far as the replication is concerned.
I wish we knew whether Mike's coils are true bifilar/trifilar wound? (ie 2/3 wires next to each other wound simultaneously (?)) or are they simply wound one after another and squashed together into one large coil.
As it stands, my first stator is going to be basically one coil wound after another, because I've only got one spool of wire (pulled out of mains wiring of a 12V trannie), although I'm winding them on a wide flat spool, so each winding is on top of each other and once they've finished and squashed together each winding will be mixed with each of the others.
Anyway, I'm photo documenting the entire process, I'll post them once I've got further into it and have some results.
Andrew
Andrew,
please wind trifilar and the main (2nd coil) has about twice as much windings
as the 2 other coils.
Mike said in one posting, that he used a trifilar setup.
You can see this from the scope shots, that the main winding (2nd coil)
gets about twice the induction voltage than the other 2 coils,
so it has about twice the winding turn numbers than the 2 other coils.
Probably the closer the distance of the 3 coils is and the more
interwoven the coils are the better it is.
That is a fact in all aircore coil designs.
So put the 3 wire very closely together or even twist (drill) them
before winding them up.
Just put the 2 shorter wire coils into the center of the
longer wire coil and wind all 3 wires together as one big window coil loop.
The second main coil will then have at both ends more turns.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
Oh well, if it doesn't work for me then the first thing to blame is my coil, because I've already finished it. The three coils are well and truly mixed and packed together, but are not properly trifilar wound.
I'm pretty happy with myself, the mechanism is finished and I've only been working on this for 4 hours so far....Now it's time to assemble some electronics... I'll be back soon.
Well done Corona,
Please keep us updated !
I just realized that Mike indeed did probably invert the
scope shot of the third coil.
Look at the attachment.
Now I will explain, how I think it works:
1. At A the transistors conduct and the 2nd main coil
is switched across the cap and the 3rd coil ( minus the
voltage at the diodes)
As the induction voltage of the 2nd main coil is
about twice as large, the voltage suddenly jumps to the
higher level seen at A, cause 2md coil still has higher voltage at this point.
Now Voltage falls, cause the 2 coils are parallel and
current starts to compensate to flow through both coils
and from cap to coil2 also...
2. Due to the induction of both coils the voltage rises
again. As the displayed voltage is at coil 3 and it is
still decoupled from cap via the 2 diodes from greatz bridge,
we don?t see a constant voltage, buta rising one...
(cap is enough decoupled at this time via the diodes)
3.At point B the hall sensor kicks the SS relay conducting
until C. During this period we actually see the
cap voltage at coil 3 minus the voltage of the diode
at the SS relay.
Why the voltage is jumping up at B is still
a bit puzzling to me, but it is probably cause
the resistance to coil2 is lowered and coil2 always has a higher induction voltage, so the voltage level jumps to
coil?s 2 induction voltage level.
4. Now from point B to point C the voltage is falling
at the cap, cause both coils (2nd and 3rd) are now in parallel
and the load resistance for the cap is lower and thus the voltage sinks faster.
(Look at my posted compensation diagram for better insight again)
5. At point C the SS relay is put into nonconducting mode, so the Coil3 voltage, what we see on the scopeshot again falls to its own induction voltage level, which is lower
than the combined induction voltage level from coil2 and3 together, so the voltage jumps onto a lower level...!
6. What is important to note is, that from
the very far left to the very far right of the whole
screen the actual voltage rises, as you can see from the
buttoms of the spikes !
Reread this a few times and it will get clear to you.
Regards, Stefan.
This is pretty cool stuff. I wonder how much power output one of these motor/generator.. things could produce? You don't think they would only put out enough to power themselves, and themselves only - hopefully not!
P.S: The transistors switch off also at point C.
The trick of the whole motor seems to be, that
he switches between 2 different coils ( coil 2 and coil 3)
which have different induction voltages !
Thus during the compensation of the voltages, when both
coils are parallel the rotor gets a kick through the
higher current ( at point A) and
during point B and C the cap is recharged again
by changing again the configuration of the coils
versus the cap and thus again the cap is recharged
and the voltage jumps at it at point B
and fromPoint B to C the enhanced current also kicks
the rotor again back...
So it is a contant changing of the coils and induction
voltages via these switches and it seems one coil
at least needs to have a much higher induction voltage
and thus a higher turn number.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: Charlie_V on February 16, 2007, 11:49:53 PM
This is pretty cool stuff. I wonder how much power output one of these motor/generator.. things could produce? You don't think they would only put out enough to power themselves, and themselves only - hopefully not!
Has Mike said how long his motor has ran, has it stopped?
The principle can be scaled up into the KiloWatts or also MegaWatts range !
If we can understand the underlying principle we have found the
way to put a "waterwheel" into the river of the magnetflux so we can tap this
endless energy flow...
As the machine is now built with all its huge airgaps, it is very inefficient.
If we understand the right principle behind it, it is only a matter of the right engineering
and scale up via computer and finite element simulations and optimizing
the used materials...
The race in on ! ;)
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 16, 2007, 11:57:22 PM
So it is a contant changing of the coils and induction
voltages via these switches and it seems one coil
at least needs to have a much higher induction voltage
and thus a higher turn number.
Regards, Stefan.
Hmm, didn?t Steven Mark say with his TPUs,
that you can put the 3 coils in parallel or serial or other different
combinations ???
Maybe he is also just constantly switching his coils back and
forth, sometimes in series, sometimes in parallel, so
he always gets these compensations currents which
kick again the inductions up and down ???
Another help:
If you just superimpose the voltage from
coil 2 onto the upper posted scopeshot of coil 3 you will see,
that at point A and B the voltage just jumps to the level of
the induction voltage of coil 2 !!!
This is the main secret of the motor I guess and
somehow kicks the rotor some more and thus
also enhances again the induction voltage and thus the cap charges up also and the rotor accelerates !
I guess now we know, how this "sucker" works ! ;):laugh:
Regards, Stefan.
So, you have passive switching (of sorts) between 3 different coils. Each time you switch it charges the capacitor and only allows current to flow in each coil for a very short amount of time, enough to kick the magnets but not enough to drain the capacitor. The capacitor is charging faster than its draining. Do I got the basic picture or am I off?
Assuming I'm understanding this correctly, if you put a load on the capacitor, that drew more than what was charging, everything would crawl to a halt. This means there's a window; if you drew limited amounts of power that enabled the capacitor to continue recharging, then you should have power output for as long as the magnet's last (since once their fields are gone everything should stop). Obviously this is more of a generator than a motor - since putting a load on the axial kills it.
This is very interesting, especially the fact that this shouldn't degauss the magnets. Would the energy "pumped" from the capacitor be more than what it took to generate the permanent magnet's field - over the operational life time of the device? Something tells me it would; the energy stored in a permanent magnet is very small - even for neodymiums.
On a personal note: I still feel my generator will work better, BUT I won't talk about that till its working ;)
Well, the basic electronics is built, and the unit is running in motor mode (ie from a power supply). My coils aren't too good - they're too long! It doesn't run continuously in motor mode unless I have 2 coils in parallel for the drive winding. as such I have the 3rd coil, the relay switched one, not connected to electronics but to the power coil. :-S
Haven't tried self running yet, need to get this coil issue sorted first I reckon. maybe if I can get more magnets onto the rotor it'd do the job....
yep, wider magnets got it continuously from 2 coils, but I still have to use the smallest coil for the main drive.
Now another question;
The hall sensor. Does anyone know where is it mounted / how it is triggered?
Do you just have it near the rotor so the magnets can trigger it as they fly past? If so I guess it's a case of trial and error to find the best position.
Charlie,
exactly that it is in my opinion. This way you can extract much much more energy than the magnets need to be built.
Corona, Mike did use an additional wheel on the shaft to mount a magnet there for a hall ic.
no I haven't got a separate wheel for hall, that's what I'm not sure about. Why would you want the hall to fire only once per revolution? Is it something about only tapping energy occasionally?
Regardless of that, I'm not sure if my ss relay is working.... I'm getting no dc resistance through it when I trigger it, I know it's an ac device but it should switch on, and latch on, when it's switching dc..... afaik?
back to it...
Hi Corona,
The ss relay is a DC model not AC, look at the spec. 84131100
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?sku=182278
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/72162.pdf
The AC relay is the cheap one, the DC version is about 2-3 times more expensive.
I think the hall sensor is mounted just above the black pulley, and a small magnet on the pulley appears to trigger it once a revolution.
Seems odd though, I would have thought you could trigger it six times/rev.
Regards
Rob
Hello there
would like to do also a replikation,but my knowlege about the wire sizees is poor.
Is it possible,that you provide a short list of Wiresizes in mm2,so i can go to the Market to buy some.
Thanks in advance
regards from Duisburg
Helmut
Hi Helmut,
Mike says:
Quote
I use (28 gauge .012 in. main)
(30 gauge .010 in. trigger, generator)
I get a little over 40 ohms each
So thats:
wire no.
28 gauge = 0.0126" = 0.32mm
30 gauge = 0.0100" = 0.25mm
http://www.comax.uk.com/wire_gauge_chart.htm
Rob
megaman, the relay is an ac relay, it's specified for 36 - 530V AC output, which is essentially the same as mine....which would explain why I'm not getting dc resistance, because my dc probably isn't high enough to get through the output stage. The DC specification is just the control voltage.
helmet, a good page for wire diameter/weight conversions is here:
http://amasci.com/tesla/wire1.txt
Hi Stefan
the trigger winding is 0.25 mm(30 AWG), the main is 0.32mm (28AWG)..But how about the first winding? Is the same as the trigger?And all of them have the same impedance, 40- 46 ohm?
Many thanks,
Cristian
Hi Corona,
Mike used a DC solid state relay (I think are based on MOSFETs and an led), I suspect your solid state AC relay is probably made from two SCRs which only turn off when you cross the zero threshold.
There are a lot of cheap (chip type) DC ss relays you can buy that handle up to 500mA at 350V DC for about 2GBP.
Granted, these may not work as well as the heavy duty relay Mike used.
Hi All,
On the wire front, how about this as an idea: use multi-stranded enameled wire (4 strands), wind say 1000 turns:
1 for trigger
1 for generator
2 in series for the main.
You could tap off at say 500 turns so you could use a shorter trigger wire and add the extra 500 on the end of the main say (in series).
500 turns trigger
1000 turns generator
2500 turns main
The possibilities are endless.
This way you can wind one coil straight off a 0.5Kg 4 core bobbin.
http://wires.co.uk/acatalog/st_wire.html
wires.co.uk sell a 4 X 0.224MM SOLDERABLE EN STRAND GR2 500 GR
Regards
Rob
Megaman,
Look at post 2260 at the beginning of this thread and read the top line on the relay in the photo. It's an AC relay (36 - 530V) with a DC operating coil (4-32V DC).
However, now look at Mike's schematic and notice the diode in series with this relay between the SSR and FWBR. Why then do we need an AC relay when one cycle is blocked by this diode? A DC MOSFET based relay should work in theory.
Megaman wrote: -
"Hi Corona,
Mike used a DC solid state relay (I think are based on MOSFETs and an led), I suspect your solid state AC relay is probably made from two SCRs which only turn off when you cross the zero threshold.
There are a lot of cheap (chip type) DC ss relays you can buy that handle up to 500mA at 350V DC for about 2GBP.
Granted, these may not work as well as the heavy duty relay Mike used."
Hi All,
Magnets arrived today!
-Just thoughts... I guess Mike just decided to build a window motor, but didnt know what turns or anything, so he just put something decent together with what he had. Then once he got it running from a battery, he started playing with the control circuit and added some stuff. Probably he just had this relay laying around (as its not made anymore), hooked it up and continued playing and got this effect.
Probably as long as the drive coil has a high resistance so as not to discharge the cap to quickly and you employ the same firing and coil connections, it will probably work.
What are the chances he just happened to wind the right no of turns, etc. Its more likely as long as you follow the same procedure of the coils and timing, it will work!
Without Mike giving us exact dimensions and magnet field strength, etc, we have to just follow the general idea.
Mike has been bombarded with so many questions he cannot answer quick enough and now he has gone quite and whos fault is it? Ours as usual.
Dave.
I wouldn't be too concerned that he's gone quiet the last few hours some people do have other life they need to attend to. But I agree in that him being busy building his second, we should follow in what footsteps we can see and try building our own in the meantime.
speaking of building our own, mine is working fine as a motor (running on a power supply), except that it needs a high voltage to run. I've got it running on caps, but the caps are bing fed from a power supply through a resister. This way I can monitor the cap voltage to try to tune it. Except that there doesn't seem to be much I can change. ideally once I hit the sweet spot the cap voltage will start to rise, but it hasn't yet. my biggest concern is that if te cap voltage drops below around 12.8V the motor stops. This is far too high to be starting from to get it self running, as Mike's measurements showed that his coils give out ~4V when turned by hand, which means the motor must start fine from that voltage.
I think I'll have to find better wire to make a new coil. :(
Since I had success earlier by adding more magnets, I added extra magnets again, but now it's got worse, it needs two coils in parallel to get it to drive again.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 17, 2007, 04:02:08 AM
Corona, Mike did use an additional wheel on the shaft to mount a magnet there for a hall ic.
Maybe the same number of magnets mounted on the mainshaft (6)
Hi Corona and Hoppy,
Sorry for the slip up, yes I checked the spec again and yes the although the input is DC and starts at 4V the output requires AC and starts at 36Vrms.
According to the spec the relay does have two SCR's, but as I understand it they need to cross the zero potential to switch off.
Reading further looks as if once you drop the output below the hold voltage it will turn off, so does it mean the following happens:
1. hall effect trigger to turn on the relay, which coinsides with back emf.
2. pulse is collected at anything above 36volts.
3. As the pulse potential drops, output turns off at the hold voltage whatever that is.
4. the turn off from the hall IC is maybe ignored.
Hmm.... so does that mean the main coil needs a back emf of greater than 36V to feed the capacitor?
Maybe this is why it is only triggered once per rev. as more collections would create too much drag on the system.
So a standard solid state DC (in and out) relay may not do the trick and you need the same part.
Could this part be the *magic* that powers the overunity?
Dave,
The ss relay may no longer be manufactured but this part is available at Farnell in one for about 25GBP + vat
Just search for 84131100 on http://uk.farnell.com
I think its free postage over 20GBP.
Edited:
AhuraMazda mentioned the replacement part is 84137100, this has a lower AC output 24-280VAC, so this may perform better or worse, only time will tell.
Regards
Rob
Thanks Rob,
I'm registered there and just ordered one.
Regards,
Dave.
I've just got my motor-mode unit running at a much lower voltage by joining two of my coils in series for the trigger, ie a slower speed is needed to get the 0.6v transister trigger. This means that now my drive coil is half the resistance & length of the trigger. In light of MeggerMan's theory of the ss relay only conducting the top 36V+ of the back emf to the cap, it might be worth putting a longer coil on the 3rd coil too to get the higher voltage more easily.
I still don't think I'm going to get any closer to self running without a new coil. And now darn it I've started suggesting changes before I have a fully working unit...I hate that...oops.
You know, Erfinder's circuit (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,133.80.html) seems to be doing the same thing only he's not using solid state devices. He does make things a little cryptic with "ancient" measuring systems and coil weight ratios (I'm still a little skeptic about that). I looked into the referenced Tesla patents he gave and there might be something there. Although I haven't read them in detail, it appears Tesla figured out a way to charge a capacitor with way less power input than normally required. Remember solid state was not around in 1896, he was doing this with coils and capacitors. So, there might be a completely analog approach to this.
This reminds me, I found a patent Tesla made that converted AC to DC with only coils and transformers. It wasn't a compact type device like we have today but still rather interesting. When I was in school, they never mentioned methods of transforming AC to DC without diodes!
Thanks MegerMan and Corona
Now i can help myselve to get the right wire
without to waist Money in dead kapital.
About the Bearings i will dismount a old Drilling Maschine
and take the rod as well.
Regards from Duisburg
Helmut
One other thing - Meggerman, great idea on the stranded copper wire, I didn't know you could get that stuff, until I remembered it for it's other name - litz wire. I think litz typically has the higher numbers of strands, but if we can find it in smaller numbers (or just pair up x numbers of strands) we're really set to make coil building easy.
if only I could find a source in australia, I really don't want to have the wait and expense of purchasing overseas. All the hobby stores here seem to only have 25g rolls when looking at the .2mm .3mm range, and this isn't going to be enough length to get the recommended resistance, if I've done my calcs right. If they just had 50g rolls I could buy 3 rolls and twist them together, no worries. I certainly don't want to have to buy 6 rolls at AUD$7-8 each, considering I haven't had to spend a cent so far.
Hi corona:
For large spools of wire, just look up places that wind transformers. I get my roll in ten pound sizes. Gives many thousands of feet per spool. Price is usually by copper weight price.Not sure that will help you there in AU but worth a shot.
sugra
In most drawings that show magnet pole polarity, they're all north pole out, and I see most if not all constructions have an even number of magnets on the rotor. Won't the voltages cancel on opposite sides of the coil --am I missing something? I think an odd number of magnets would be better.
It also seems that if you alternated magnet polarities and butted them up to each other you'd get a stronger field.
This is not a mono-pole motor, its N S N S N S facing out.
Regards,
Dave.
Nop, With n-s n-s n-s configuration with this kind of coil you add power (ampere). If you put n-n n-n n-n you cancel the power (no value). Other think, with odd magnet, you will get half ampere since only one magnet work per time in comparison of two magnet in this configuration.
And for your information, the more speed magnet travel, more voltage you get.
Alp
Sergio
Quote from: hstearnsjr on February 17, 2007, 12:18:51 PM
In most drawings that show magnet pole polarity, they're all north pole out, and I see most if not all constructions have an even number of magnets on the rotor. Won't the voltages cancel on opposite sides of the coil --am I missing something? I think an odd number of magnets would be better.
It also seems that if you alternated magnet polarities and butted them up to each other you'd get a stronger field.
Re obtaining winding wire.Firms that wind transformers are fine, but scarce. Virtually every town has a firm that rewinds industrial electric motors. Look in yellow pages under motor rewinds, or electric motor rewinds. You will need to know the Weight of wire needed. In the UK wire sizes are in metric.
I understand that the inventor of this device wishes to remain anonymous. He could still make money when he has an easily repeatable design, by publishing an e-book with precise details. If he is busy, he could get someone else to do it for him, but it must show exact details and diagrams for idiots such as me. People would be willing to pay, or at least I would. Meanwhile we must wait patiently for info.
Quote from: sergio007 on February 17, 2007, 02:19:54 PM
...with odd magnet, you will get half tension since only one magnet work per time in comparison of two in this configuration.
I think the same tension because the same flux has to return through the space between the magnets -- just negative direction.
Correction: for "unipolar" and odd number above is true I think.
Quote from: hstearnsjr on February 17, 2007, 12:18:51 PM
In most drawings that show magnet pole polarity, they're all north pole out, and I see most if not all constructions have an even number of magnets on the rotor. Won't the voltages cancel on opposite sides of the coil --am I missing something? I think an odd number of magnets would be better.
It also seems that if you alternated magnet polarities and butted them up to each other you'd get a stronger field.
Hi Hoyt,
QuoteWon't the voltages cancel on opposite sides of the coil --am I missing something? I think an odd number of magnets would be better.
NO.
If you look the motor with the rotor going vertical:
The coil winding direction on the left is going up and on the right it is coming down, therefore when the coil is energised the flux lines will rotate in opposite directions around the two vertical winding limbs.
Also an odd number of magnets will mean that one magnet will be lined up with the winding correctly and one will not and will be most likely be in the wrong position.
Its all one coil so you cannot switch off one winding.
The design is fine as it is, just needs refining for better efficiency.
Regards
Rob
recent john bedini gn0sis post.. :)
Mike,
This is great work, It seems you have created a great debate in the energy community, that's good they need it.
As stated these drawings and machines have been on my internet sight since the internet started. I'm not here to find fault in anything you have done. I'm going to point out that unless everybody in this group follows your variation to the T
"They are doomed to failure", In replicating your motor.
The Window Motor is very close to the many I have built over the years, however unless everybody has your exact details, wire size, lengths in feet, switching devices, exact circuit wiring and so on, they will never reproduce it. The first thing to state here is that their is a big difference between efficiency and COP of the system. In the motor you reproduced your efficiency is around 99.9 but the COP is over 100% that is why the "CAP charges" up. The next problem is that your hall device can not work correct, because of the Radiant spike, if you walk away the Hall will soon burn out and that part will hinder your performance.
So I will state for the record right here the Motor section is not over unity and your statement is correct.
The Group needs to understand what they are building, they are building a machine that takes advantage of a simple trigger system, you must supply the trigger to cause the effect to happen. It is that trigger that causes things to happen, it's known as a sharp gradient. Sharp gradients cause normal EM systems to do real funny things since it is not in the normal text. For example the correct sharp pulse can trigger a battery to recharge itself, it can cause a capacitor to recharge itself and so on.
You are dealing with quantum systems when you cause this to happen, and they look totally different from the standard EM systems, when you combine the two you have real trouble.
Normal EM systems are designed to never be over unity and you only have meters and scopes that see only this, you can not see in the Quantum level with your instruments.
The original Maxwell equations allow the production of The term FREE ENERGY, the paper is on the internet and also it can be found on Tom Bearden's Internet Sight.
I'm Not here to have a debate with any people that think they know better, I do not want to discuss the TURBO CHARGER, which was mine in the beginning, I do not want to discuss Glow bulbs, or I think that this is what is going on, because it's not what is going on.
You Have made a great leap in what you did and posted to the internet in this group along with the Video.
John Bedini
Running off battery...
Hi Dave,
Good work.
What voltage/current are you using to drive it?
I have just completed a cardboard mockup to get an idea of dimensions and layout - it looks really crap made from cardboard, but you get the idea.
Hope to get the router table out tomorrow to chop up some 10mm acrylic sheet.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard1.jpg&hash=1ea6032c0456064058f9c48e84c00f3b6dda19fe)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard2.jpg&hash=23cdbff4aa73cb6b5a7fd798eec557016ceaef4d)
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(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard4.jpg&hash=c4cce0267cf75df0a3f6a3778bc24e4c051a841c)
Regards
Rob
Hi All,
I am very interested in the macro perspective of the energies that may be at work here. Let me explain. With the SSG we have always been aware of only two energies. One being the back emf pulse and the other being the transistor switching off transient or RE pulse as we have come to call it. Of these two energies we know that the back emf pulse is a real energy that can charge a battery or capacitor. But the RE pulse, even though we could see it on our scopes, we could never really prove it of any use. On it's own, the RE pulse can't power a fly. We only assumed it may be having some sort of magical excess energy charging effect when coupled with the back emf pulse.
More recently, I had decided to let go of the idea that the switching transient we see, is itself the REAL RE pulse and that the RE pulse is actually hidden in the back emf pulse. This is because of my reed motor work, where even though there a more switching transients, I found that even if I filtered them out with the low pass filter I could still manifest apparent OU results. That is not so say that they may have been still having an effect prior to the low pass filter, but just that they weren't directly effecting the batteries being charged...
Ok, now let's look at Mike's modified Bedini-Cole motor. For all intents and purposes, as far as energies go, it could also be seen as John's original trifilar SG motor. With such a motor, I see that there are actually three energies at work here and not just the two I have described. There is both the back emf and RE pulse being the first two. But this motor/circuit having a pick up generator coil, being the 3rd winding, actually creates a 3rd energy. This is both an inductive energy from the power winding's back emf pulse and is also an inductive energy from the passing magnets. In this case, using N-S-N-S poles, this inducting energy from the magnets can be more effective than that of a monopole motor.
Now let's compare Mike's motor to the original SG trifilar motor. I believe this is the key to what is creating the extra energy in the capacitor. The original SG motor did not have any direct linking of the 3rd energy from the generator winding. Mike's motor does and it does it at a certain time. It directs the RE pulse (transistor switch off pulse) which comes out of the bottom transistor's collector (in Stefan's hand drawn circuit) up through the main coil (2nd winding) and back through both the 3rd winding and also through the FWBR back to the capacitor.
Now when we look at duplicating what is going on here. We MUST make this exact design of the motor. That is because there is a number of key things it does and allows for it to work. First of all, it's N-S-N-S orientation is very important for the 3rd generator winding to generator the large power required to charge such a big capacitor. Now second of all, and I think even more importantly, the coil is just an air coil wound around the rotor with no core! This is almost the key for this motor to work. The large air coil will both pass and use the HF RE pulse coming from the bottom transistor. If we used an iron core, it will make the coil act as a low pass filter. The RE pulse will not get used or directed appropriately....
Regards,
Ossie Callanan
Hello everyone. I have worked on electromechanics for a long time. I love thinking of ou and zp energy ideas as a hobby and told myself that it would never become an obsession. After watching this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rl1dI9YCi8 I think im going to start making it an obsession. ;D
The monopole motors ARE n-s-n-s-n-s-n-s, etc...
Actually it is n-ss-n-ss-n-ss-n-ss
ss=supersouth or scalar south that is squeezed out between both north
facing magnets.
Surely the meaning of "mono"-pole means one pole, ie all north poles facing outwards.
In the window motor every other outward face is north and the others are south.
D.
Rob,
I had just literally got home from work last night and finished it off, was just connected to a 12v 1.3aH battery drawing about 120mA.
Full hook up and tests to come...
D.
I would like to download this entire thread for safe keeping and for offline use. Can I do this easily? Thanks :)
I found the post from Callanan to be very interesting. The only criticism is his use of unexpleined abbreviations. Remember other people work in different disciplines, and these terms mean different things to different people. What is the meaning of SSG, RE, SG ? Also can we all agree on a name for a Bridge Rectifier? Dont want to be picky, but clear unambiguous information is the road to replication. Heres wishing rapid success to all the builders, and massive overunity.
Apologies.
Simplified School Girl (SSG) motor.
Radiant Energy (RE) pulse.
School Gril (SG) motor.
High Frequency (HF)
Anyone, is it impossible, 100% of the time, to draw and use any power at all from the batteries inside of a multimeter through the probes?
Stefan, has Mike run his motor without the multimeter attached and does the motor operate any differently?
To be convinced, the skeptical mind will need to rule out the slimmest possible use of any familiar energy sources. A second area of interest is this unfamiliar and obsolete SS-Relay. Does it contain a battery added before, (or after,) market?
Stefan, how are the 3 gn0sis rep's proceeding and what exactly are they using for the SS-Relay?
I personally think that we have a real breakthrough here. :)
But these university-planted voices in my head.... ???
It is happening 100% of the time, thats how the meter works.
I dont know if he has run it without the meter for long times though.
Regards,
Dave.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 14, 2007, 10:34:02 PM
Here are still the PDF datasheet Files of the used transistors and the Solid State Relay.
Danke Stefan !
Nic, a old ret.engineer
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 17, 2007, 07:22:57 PM
Hi Dave,
Good work.
What voltage/current are you using to drive it?
I have just completed a cardboard mockup to get an idea of dimensions and layout - it looks really crap made from cardboard, but you get the idea.
Hope to get the router table out tomorrow to chop up some 10mm acrylic sheet.
SUCCESS !
Nic
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard1.jpg&hash=1ea6032c0456064058f9c48e84c00f3b6dda19fe)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard2.jpg&hash=23cdbff4aa73cb6b5a7fd798eec557016ceaef4d)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard3.jpg&hash=1612e62b9b9c1561658925272f9fdf4913141d59)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard4.jpg&hash=c4cce0267cf75df0a3f6a3778bc24e4c051a841c)
Regards
Rob
Hi All,
I just came back from a trip.
Too bad, Mike did not come back to the other forum
during the last 2 days, but maybe he was just on work
or is now trying to build the second modell he wanted to build.
Anyway, nice work being done now by all people here.
Keep on at it.
If I get to the PC this night again, I will
try to look into the last 2 scope shots, that Mike posted
and try to ponder, what we see in them.
P.S. Mike must have probably more than just 1 magnet on this syncwheel,
which sits on his axis and triggers the hall IC.
He probably has 3 magnets sitting there, as he has 6 magnets inside
the rotor, so as 2 rotor magnets give one sine induction wave, he needs
probably 3 sync wheel magnets to trigger the hall IC once in
every sine wave of the rotor.
Is this correct ?
I just finished the mechanical parts of my prototype. It's not too similar to the original, but it's what I could do quicklly by commandeering a Braun juicer from the kitchen, and the degaussing coil from a computer monitor:
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini001.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini001.jpg)
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini002.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini002.jpg)
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini003.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini003.jpg)
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini004.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini004.jpg)
I'll probably use a commercial inductive pickup, and a 555 timer to do the pulsing, and maybe even use a microprocessor to fine tune it.
The oscilloscope trace is 5 volts/div and 10 mSec/div when using the internal motor of the juicer to spin up. Later, if this works, I can use the internal 3600 RPM induction motor as an induction generator to extract power :-) .
More later...
Rob
That is very cool! and does not look crap, very creative.
Love the way people can be creative with things to hand, Keep up the good work.
Regards
Sean.
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 17, 2007, 07:22:57 PM
I have just completed a cardboard mockup to get an idea of dimensions and layout - it looks really crap made from cardboard, but you get the idea.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FCardboard1.jpg&hash=1ea6032c0456064058f9c48e84c00f3b6dda19fe)
Regards
Rob
Hi Hoyt,
Couple of things:
1. The window coil needs to be as per the spec, the turns do not look enough.
2. The coil needs to circle the the rotor, you cannot double back like you have done.
3. Are you clips magnetic?
4. How much friction have you got on this rotor?
Typically it should be able to spin for about 10 seconds if you give a small flick.
If you use sapphire bearings you could get the rotor to spin for nearly one minute with a small spin.
5. A timing circuit is a bad idea, you need a feedback system. If you start straying that far from the original idea you will end up way off track.
Sorry for the critisism.
Regards
Rob
Quoteauthor=hstearnsjr I'll probably use a commercial inductive pickup, and a 555 timer to do the pulsing, and maybe even use a microprocessor to fine tune it.
Let me know if you need any help knocking up a Microprocessor controller for the timing.
I can write up some code for the Microchip Pic range of Controllers easly enough.
I have promised myself one project at a time this end as head all over the place jumping back and forth from each one and not finishing any!. So have decided to stick with the Torbay replication but will be starting work on my pulse motor next, so will need to knock up circuit and some Pic code to control the timing.
I am looking at using Optical sensors fed into the processor for trigger and output to a mofset to take the load of the coil. Was going to use a simple serial menu from the processor back to the PC to enable the fine tuning of the trigger with any delay you wish to specify.
Regards
Sean.
Sean,
Whats your location in the UK?
Dave.
I have spent hours studying this project. It must be 20 years since I built anything electronic. I would love to replicate this, but there are a number of things I dont understand. The main question is, What triggers the Hall effect device, and where exactly is it mounted. It seems pointless to me to have a separate sync wheel with the same number of magnrts as on the rotor. Having thought about it, you probably need a separate wheel with say all northpoles to trigger the device, wheras the rotor has alternating poles, and so you cannot trigger it off the rotor. Can anyone put me wise?
Also, could anyone do a quick diagram showing the MOTOR ONLY with the components necessary to run it from a battery, for those of us just starting. Also, what are the odds on cracking it without a scope? I have only a primitive one, and I last used it 20 years ago. Any help appreciated.
Hi to all,
first of all, there seems to be a lot of people who just don't know what bifilar or trifilar wound wire is!
Bifilar does not mean just to have two spools of wire on a coil. It however means you have to wind both wires togheter. So a trifilar coil needs 3 wires that have to be wound togheter the same time! Hence, every wire has the same length! Since Mike stated that the wires have not the same length the coil cannot be true trifilar!!!
I have built a motor but the motor does not run itself. If the 66000 ?F cap is charged to 12V the motor spins up and runs for a few seconds. This shows the very low power consumption of the motor. However this motor has a very low efficiency. (Efficiency has nothing to do with overunity!!)
The enclosed picture showes the motor.
There are two alterations I will do next.
First to improve the bearing of the rotor, which is only a porous bearing at the moment, in order to decrease friction loss.
Second, I will use another coil. This one is made is true trifilar winding. One wire is 0,25mm and the other two have 0,56mm in diameter. About 350 turns. I will change it to all 0,25mm to increase the numbers of turn.
However there is a problem. The more turns the coil has the more BEMF Voltage can be received on the other hand the less repelling action ca be achieved, because of the need of higher voltage.
PK
Nice motor! Good work!
Dave.
Quote from: CTG Labs on February 18, 2007, 02:23:06 PM
Sean,
Whats your location in the UK?
Dave.
Cornwall this end Dave
What about you?
Regards
Sean.
Quote from: MeggerMan on February 18, 2007, 01:48:10 PM
Hi Hoyt,
Couple of things:
1. The window coil needs to be as per the spec, the turns do not look enough.
2. The coil needs to circle the the rotor, you cannot double back like you have done.
3. Are you clips magnetic?
4. How much friction have you got on this rotor?
Typically it should be able to spin for about 10 seconds if you give a small flick.
If you use sapphire bearings you could get the rotor to spin for nearly one minute with a small spin.
5. A timing circuit is a bad idea, you need a feedback system. If you start straying that far from the original idea you will end up way off track.
Sorry for the critisism.
Regards
Rob
I thought I'd replied to this, but it didn's show up, so again:
Thank you for your suggestions, that's why I posted.
The rotor spins about 30 seconds from about 100 RPM.
I think the coil effectively does surround the magnets -- I just doubled over the coil making electrically one coil [11.2 ohms], then just bent it to fit.
The hose clamps are stainless steel, just barely magnetic, and the cable clamps are plastic.
See the position sensor I was planning to use on the left in this photo of another project, which triggers the timer:
http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/RWGrayMotor3.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/RWGrayMotor3.jpg)
Did you also require voltage or current feedback in addition to position sensing?
I'll wind another proper coil when I get the wire and have time.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Hoyt
Hi,
one further note I just thought about:
The window motor is actually a double Adams motor. Therefore it might be interesting to built an Adams motor but with no core in the coil. This motor has the advantage to not use a window shaped coil and the need of less copper to achieve more turns.
This is what I can try, too.
PK
You might get even better results by using Schottky diodes in the bridge as the forward drop is much lower (but the reverse leakage (~20k) is much higher). If not that, germanium diodes or synchronous rectification using FETs. I've got some old germanium transistors around, I'l think I'll try those first (collector-base junction diode).
Hi Dave,
good to see your motor running longer and
better with the feedback.
Can you please post a few scopeshots,
so we can see, how and when and how long the trigger
coils starts the transistors to conduct ?
As I still have a hard time to intepret the scopeshots
from Mike, I really need some other scopeshots to
compare them versus the ones from Mike.
How long will the transistors stay in conduction mode ?
Maybe Mike did also invert at least one
coil in its outer connections, so we might have
a 180 degrees phase shift in one coil ?
What I also realized is now, that Mike INDEED DID INVERT
the scopeshots !
As he took the first scopeshots directly at the coils,
if you apply a positive voltage to a coil and cut off the
current, immediately you always get a NEGATIVE going voltage BackEMF pulse !
As Mike?s scopeshots had the pulses into the POSITIVE direction, we know, he must have accidently put the
scopehead pins 180 degrees turned around onto the coils
or had a pressed INVERT button at the scope input.
So we now know, that we have to invert all the scopeshots
from Mike, as all have the spikes going positive, which in
fact must go into the negative direction !
Then these scopeshots also make sense !
P.S: To All who are replicating in this moment
the Mike motor and also have a scope.
Could you please post a few scopeshots,
also directly the voltage at the cap and
the current into the cap at a shunt
and the voltage at all 2 or 3 coils ?
(Dom is only having 2 coils so far)
I really need to compare your scopeshots
with Mike?s scopeshots to see, when exactly
the switching of the transistors take place
and some other things.
It does not matter, if you don?t yet have the
HALL IC and the SS Relay, but it would be
good, if you have this 3 transistor circuit already
running with at least the first 2 coils.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: The negative very short duration BackEMF pulses of the Mike motor
don?t have the right polarity to charge up the cap,
but they are also too short to have any big impact !
The pulses which really charge up the cap in Mike?s Motor
are the pulses, that are in between that event during the SS Relay on
and off phase.
If you invert all the scope shots from Mike you can see it even better,
that the voltage of this time interval always increases during the 3 or 4 cycles
seen on the scope.
So the spikes have a more negative impact not to
charge the cap, so it probably would run best, if the coils
don?t have too much inductance, so the spike energy is less.
So the Mike Motor does not run on Radiant Energy as there is
also no battery involved, where it could be converted into
real energy.
So it is very different from the motors of John Bedini, who need
to create these pulses to convert the Radiant Energy directly inside
the batteries ( probably due to the slow ion movement of the electrolyte?s ions..)
I guess the Mike motor just converts on very tricky way via coil
configuation switching just the available constant magnetflux into
electrical energy.
Regards, Stefan.
I'm currently in the process of making a new coil, so once that's done I'll be able to take some scope shots.
The only decent length of wire available to me is far too thin, around 0.1mm or smaller, so i'm making a 12 core twisted strand, which I can then join together in multitudes of configurations to test out different coil configurations. There's actually two slightly different diameter wires, they both look like 0.1mm on the small scale of the (high precision) vernier's I'm using at work, but the reisistances are quite different, I think one might be 0.08mm and the other 0.12mm. So in my final twisted wire I'll have 6 strands of thin, 6 strands of thick, lots of different configurations to try there.
I'm going to set up a turns counter too when I make my final coil, so as to have some comprehensive specs on my coil.
I'll post some pictures of my twisting & winding apparatus I set up if anyone wants some extra ideas on how to make bifilar/trifilar twisted wire.
Andrew
Here are the 1st and second main and 3rd coil scope shots corrected.
( Inverted and commented)
Watch how the flat line in the coil2 scopeshot
is the cap voltage when this coil2
is switched across the cap via the transistors.
You can see, that the cap voltage is just increasing over time !
In the scope shot of the 3rd coil,
you can see at point A in time always the 3rd coil
is put via the graetz diodes onto the main 2nd coil
and that Point A then shows the cap voltage.
You can see, that this Point A voltage increases over time.
Also the negative spikes would normall discharge the
cap and just the switching of the SS Relay of the third coil
to the main 2nd coil brings this additional energy somehow in.
It is a case for dL/dt switching and research.
Maybe it has also to do with parametrical
excited resonance via the dL/dt change.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: corona on February 18, 2007, 05:51:00 PM
I'm currently in the process of making a new coil, so once that's done I'll be able to take some scope shots.
Andrew
Hi Andrew
i just got the idea to use on each coil a adjustable coilresistor in series.
By this way you culd simulate different lenght of wire,to play with the resistens of the circuit.
Helmut
..
Quote from: fesearcher on February 18, 2007, 02:28:17 PM
The enclosed picture showes the motor.
There are two alterations I will do next.
First to improve the bearing of the rotor, which is only a porous bearing at the moment, in order to decrease friction loss.
Second, I will use another coil. This one is made is true trifilar winding. One wire is 0,25mm and the other two have 0,56mm in diameter. About 350 turns. I will change it to all 0,25mm to increase the numbers of turn.
@fesearcher
You've made an impressive device but from my arm chair it appears there is a large gap between the magnet and the coil. You should try to keep this distance to a minimum.
For bearings I would suggest ceramic bearings but these can be very expensive.
Regards
AM
Quote from: CLaNZeR on February 18, 2007, 02:40:41 PM
Cornwall this end Dave
Regards
Sean.
Would this be Sean of Plymouth?
AM
The best
Boca Bearing for the ceramic bearings.
They make little RC race car ceramic bearings as well.
Would be good for this project.
argona369 wrote:
QuoteRemember, Duplication replication modification.
I am ROTFL... I will be surprised if anyone gets a self running motor within the next month (++) with the approaches taken so far. Shotgun approaches seldom work. :o I maybe wrong (hope I am) and someone may get lucky. ::) I wonder if Mike knew what a Pandoras box he opened. :P Without Mike providing a few more details a real replication effort is most likely to fail. I suspect Mike is were I would be if I had a self running motor in front of me. First eurphoria, then disbelief, then shock, then paranoia as tons of people are after him for more information. Is anyone surprised he went underground. Not me.. Perhaps he will come back in a couple of weeks.. I see John Bedini has joined the fray as well since it was based on his window motor (thanks) but so far I have only seen one video of a self running motor off of common capacitor and not a battery and that is Mike's video. So my hat is off to Mike for achieving what others had hoped to achieve. Mike.. if you happen to be reading this then ..Great job Mike.. Hope you are well and thanks for a glimmer of hope.
Hi has anyone seen Turbo lately?
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 18, 2007, 10:18:22 PM
argona369 wrote:
QuoteRemember, Duplication replication modification.
I am ROTFL... I will be surprised if anyone gets a self running motor within the next month (++) with the approaches taken so far. Shotgun approaches seldom work. :o I maybe wrong (hope I am) and someone may get lucky. ::) I wonder if Mike knew what a Pandoras box he opened. :P Without Mike providing a few more details a real replication effort is most likely to fail. I suspect Mike is were I would be if I had a self running motor in front of me. First eurphoria, then disbelief, then shock, then paranoia as tons of people are after him for more information. Is anyone surprised he went underground. Not me.. Perhaps he will come back in a couple of weeks.. I see John Bedini has joined the fray as well since it was based on his window motor (thanks) but so far I have only seen one video of a self running motor off of common capacitor and not a battery and that is Mike's video. So my hat is off to Mike for achieving what others had hoped to achieve. Mike.. if you happen to be reading this then ..Great job Mike.. Hope you are well and thanks for a glimmer of hope.
I concur. Haphazard replication without knowing the details or worse with thinking you know what/why makes it work without any data to go on are a recipe for failure.
I have found what appears to be a serious teaching and example of prior art of the working principle Mike has stumbled upon.
See attached patent by Alexander, US3913004.
It uses a motor-generator with closely coupled coils acting as transformer between the motor/primary and generator/secondary.
Mike's relay is nonsense and can't conduct as it is for AC and switches on/off at zero crossing, and only operates well above the voltage he has here.
But his "generator coil" (3rd coil) is always connected to the capacitor through the FW bridge!
If this were true, then I reasoned I should be able to do some tests on the bench to verify the principle. I did so with an old Adams style pulse motor that has dual wound coils.
I can get more charge going to the capacitor than is delivered to the motor coils. BUT only under very tight specifications! This test bed cannot self run - but it can indicate what makes Mike's and Alexander's device work. (however it told me the right ballpark of things to do to make a decent replication of Mike's motor/generator)
The optimal coil ratios are important as the generator coil has the FWD diode drop to contend with. So generator coil has to be more turns than motor coil as Alexander teaches and my bench tests revealed as well.
1:1 ratio of generator to motor coil turns yields no charge on capacitor. 2:1 ratio makes a tiny gain in excess charge. 3:1 ratio is worse in that far more charge is used for motoring than is generated here with optical timing.
the best so far is a ratio of 3:2, or 1.5:1. That is for every 1 turn of motor coil you need 1.5 turns of the generator coil. (the geometry magnetic fields, and coil wire resistance will affect things greatly - what Alexander found was for a commercially available motor generator that he rewound)
Generator coil should be larger wire size than the motor coil for lower DC resistance or the same DC resistance as the motor coil even though it is longer wire length. (well I am guessing here based on what makes the best lowering of the motor coil's Counter EMF by the transformer action - only experiment will tell for sure. But the coil impedance ratio is an important factor and Mike did use two different wire gauges. I'm not as sure about the correct coil resistance values as I am about the rest of the info in this message)
Timing is ultra critical and will NOT work to make excess charge even if the coils were perfect! the timing envelope needs to be adjustable - so work that into the transistor circuit and/or the trigger winding turns count. (the voltage is nearly sine like, and trigger window needs to be a slice starting at about 10-30% above zero for ON, and then about 10-30% before it crosses zero again - only one half the waveform is for motoring action while generator action proceeds all the time with the FW bridge) (I know exactly why this might work if I am right about the Alexander action, from considerable experience with pulse motors that are O/U on the bench but the explanation is too long for now)
Also note the US patent office issued a patent to Alexander 30 years ago for an over unity machine, where he specifically claims 300% gain in useful output! So conspiracy theorist's arguments about "suppression" are dashed. The only suppression is our own ignorance and the members of the flat earth society in academia that refuse to look at claims of O/U still, due to the ingrained dogma.
Also maybe knowing that Mike is merely replicating a form of Alexander's teaching might lift some of the burden he may feel at being this "pioneer" when in fact the knowledge is already out there.
Mike merely made an electronically commutated version of Alexander in my view, and from my preliminary tests on the bench. I have enough detail to try one now, although my ballpark values may need adjusting when Murphy kicks you in reality. It may or may not work the first time out. testing and analysis of results of the first one.... and then modifications may be required to get it right.
Cheers
Quote from: hstearnsjr on February 18, 2007, 01:29:32 PM
I just finished the mechanical parts of my prototype. It's not too similar to the original, but it's what I could do quicklly by commandeering a Braun juicer from the kitchen, and the degaussing coil from a computer monitor:
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini001.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini001.jpg)
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini002.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini002.jpg)
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini003.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini003.jpg)
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini004.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini004.jpg)
I'll probably use a commercial inductive pickup, and a 555 timer to do the pulsing, and maybe even use a microprocessor to fine tune it.
The oscilloscope trace is 5 volts/div and 10 mSec/div when using the internal motor of the juicer to spin up. Later, if this works, I can use the internal 3600 RPM induction motor as an induction generator to extract power :-) .
More later...
Nice, but you should use 2, or 6 magnets. With four placed N, S, N, S, the equal poles passing the coil in oposite direction will not make any voltage out...or are they placed N, N, S, S?
Br.
Vidar
Quote from: dean_mcgowan on February 19, 2007, 04:26:31 AM
Hi has anyone seen Turbo lately?
He is mostly at the gn0sis forum and is also trying to build
the Mike motor now.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: DMBoss on February 19, 2007, 06:56:23 AM
the best so far is a ratio of 3:2, or 1.5:1. That is for every 1 turn of motor coil you need 1.5 turns of the generator coil. (the geometry magnetic fields, and coil wire resistance will affect things greatly - what Alexander found was for a commercially available motor generator that he rewound)
@DMBoss,
many thanks for this insight.
Yes, I also think it has to be the right impedance and coil turn number
setup to work in a selfrunning mode.
Do you also think, that also other coils can be used?
Normal coils with just a bigger inner diameter ?
Also can this only work in aircore coils or can also
iron or ferrite cores be used for even more efficiency ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
Do you know where the inventor Mike is located so that one can visit him, if it's OK? Also, it seems that the motor should be placed in a Faraday cage to avoid the speculation that it may be tapping into the local radio station as energy source. Remember the recent flop with that guy from Australia (or New Zealand, I forget).
For reasons best known to himself, Mike is absent for the time being,meanwhile others inluding me are replicating, or will be soon. Ther are still things we are not sure about. Firstly, is the relay supposed to operate the same number of times as there are magnets on the rotor. Secondly, what is the mark space ratio of its on/off times.It would be fairly easy to omitt the relay, and do the switching with a form of commutator, on which you could vary both the timing and pulse width. Only real tests would determine if this would work.According to a posting on the GnOsis site, several replications of mikes work have been acheived. Can anyone show a link to the videos? I am doing my best to be patient. I have some of the gear ready to start building, but being busy at work, I really need more info to justify spending precious time, tobe in with at least some hope of success. Just like many others I guess. Any help with my Questions? Please.
Hi to all,
this is my update to my window-motor:
I have just altered a fiew things to dramatically improve it.
First I replaced the porous bearing with a high efficient low loss ball bearing.
Second I replaced the coil using only 0,25mm copper wire.
The coil is made of:
fist winding has 1000 turns (for trigger)
second and third winding are true bifilar about 3750 turns, each.
(concerning the original circuit of the bedini cole motor) I replaced the input transistor at the trigger coil with a BS 170 V-MOSFET and the 1N914 diode with a 6,2V Z-Diode parallel to 10k the 10 ohms has now 1k. This decreases trigger current more than 100 times!! PNP is BC640-16 and NPN is BC639-16.
I have not build the solid state circuit with hall sensor. The third coil is connected to bridge rectifier but there is no different if third coil is used or not!
At 12V the motor does 215 RPM.
66000 ?F Cap used.
MEASUREMENT:
12V supply connected to cap motor startetd by a slight push and speeds up to 215 RPM.
Then 12V supply disconnected!
Time until total stop of rotor measured:
With all coils connected at circuit motor needs 275 seconds
Without coils connected motor need 59 sconds to stop!
Vast difference!
All measurements are validated by several trials.
This shoes even motor does not run itself at the moment, energy is gained and stored back in cap.
(New motor design -> see picture)
PK
QuoteCorona wrote:
My relay is also rated as zero switch on, but definitely does switch on half way through the pulse, probably because the pulse height is small enough for the relay to call is zero.
Hi Corona,
that is very interesting.
As these SS relays probably have voltage comparators
with thresholds
in them, the SS Relay will switch probably at the lower voltages around zero to maybe 10 to 12 Volts.
This is probably the "window" in which the SS Relay works
and switches on, when it gets a pulse from the hall IC.
As Mike said it levels off at around 12 Volts,
this could be the voltage level, where the SS Relay does
not work anymore , because it is a "zero switching type"
and thus the voltage is then higher as the " zero window" and a pulse of the hall IC does not fire the SS-Relay on,
so the voltage does not rise much anymore higher
at Mike?s cap then.
So if he would have used a different SS Relay or a reed relay switch for it, he could have probably increased the voltage much more on his cap with longer run times !
His Hall IC parts failure was probably then more related to the
negative voltage spikes destroying the the transistors
in the Hall IC.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Mike and Corona, in which direction do your spikes go ?
Positive or negative ?
I really want to know, if I was right, that Mike?s
posted scope shots were inverted... thanks.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 19, 2007, 01:30:46 PM
Hi Stefan,
Do you know where the inventor Mike is located so that one can visit him, if it's OK? Also, it seems that the motor should be placed in a Faraday cage to avoid the speculation that it may be tapping into the local radio station as energy source. Remember the recent flop with that guy from Australia (or New Zealand, I forget).
Omnibus,
it seems Mike has signed off the Gn0sis.com forum,
where he was a member.
I guess he could not stand all the questions about what to do
next or he wanted to build the next machine in silence or he is shy of all
the attention he has got.
As I saw the thread there pretty late I came in there myself pretty late
and only fater Mike has posted the video I got very exited and asked many
technical questions to get as many details from Mike as we could get.
To me he still was an anonymous user there, but I guess Rich Weber, who
runs the gn0sis.com site knows him longer and maybe a few other
members over there.
So I only know his first name Mike and I also don?t know, from where he is.
Maybe he will come back one day and present a 2nd rebuild machine ?? Who knows..
Too bad he also changed his email address as Rich Weber told us.
I even did not know his email address.
But as Dave from ctglabs now has posted a video, where he runs
his motor just on a capacitor, ( although he has not clearly stated,
how long it will run on it ??!), I guess a few other people
are very near a working replication of a selfrunner motor.
I agree, that is is bad, that Mike just quit and we have
nobody who can visit him and prove as eyewittness, that there is
no RF power nearby powering it.
But we will see, what the other guys will get with their replications.
Dave is probably very near a working replication.
Regards, Stefan.
Here is the latest video from Dave ( ctglabs).
Dave can you please let us know, howlong your motor runs this way ?
Does it charge or discharge the cap ?
Many thanks.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4896962042907307732 (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=4896962042907307732)
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 19, 2007, 05:38:52 PM
it seems Mike has signed off the Gn0sis.com forum, where he was a member.
Who is John Galt?
Stefan,
I posted on the other forum its not OU and I posted on the video site its not OU. Please calm down and READ IT.
D.
Quote from: CTG Labs on February 19, 2007, 07:00:27 PM
Stefan,
I posted on the other forum its not OU and I posted on the video site its not OU. Please calm down and READ IT.
D.
Hi Dave,
this is not a very scientific way, just to post a speculative video and not telling,
what we exactly see the you doing it ere.
You did not answer any questions about it yet...
Are you too busy to write a few sentences of what you measured in the video setup ?
No disrespect to you, but why are you doing it this speculative way ?
Thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi,
Would someone care to tell me why this generator ignores Lenz's law? If I can understand this, it'll make me more eager to make this device.
Thanks
following your link to youtube, there is another video about a bedini-motor claimed:
"This motor has been on the same batteries for over 15 years."
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2770895228858583089
maybe serious!?
i rmember it was big truck batteries .
and the bedini motor must not power any load or work,
so in comsume nor "real" power.
Unde this condition , truck lead batteries (better : Edison iron batteries) will have power 15 years if they was one time loaded. The consumtion is (i think) in some milliwat perhour
and no reload needs.
Pese
Thanks, ah, i see and agree!! Using a cap is much more demonstrative
So,
nobody yet haven taken scopeshots of their replication ?
Pleasepost scopeshots.
It is the only waywe will know, what is going on.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
another ctglabs video:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7189218454647911507
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 19, 2007, 11:10:22 PM
Quote from: CTG Labs on February 19, 2007, 07:00:27 PM
Stefan,
I posted on the other forum its not OU and I posted on the video site its not OU. Please calm down and READ IT.
D.
Hi Dave,
this is not a very scientific way, just to post a speculative video and not telling,
what we exactly see the you doing it ere.
You did not answer any questions about it yet...
Are you too busy to write a few sentences of what you measured in the video setup ?
No disrespect to you, but why are you doing it this speculative way ?
Thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan,
The motor is NOT OU, it does NOT RUN ITSELF (YET).
I am very busy building another motor and performing tests. If you cannot wait for my replies then I suggest you take all the money you make from your adverts and build a motor yourself then you can get all the scope shots you want.
Otherwise please wait and have some patience.
Dave.
Sorry no scope shots from me yet either :-S
my new coil is going to be 12 core twisted wire, which can them be hooked up in whatever combination i feel like experimenting with. I need so may cores because the wire is only about 0.1mm diameter, which I've concluded was the reason for the poor performance of my first coil.
I got sidetracked today designing a new version of my datalogger *shameless plug* http://www.floppyspongeonline.com/automation/datalogger.php (http://www.floppyspongeonline.com/automation/datalogger.php) to use as a turns counter. overkill I know, but seeing as I had a couple of the loggers kicking round the factory I've been whipping up some new software to count the turns for me. This way I'll have a very complete set of specifications if/when I have a working window motor. It's a pity I don't know the exact wire diameter, but if it does work then I'm sure I can find a micrometer to measure them exactly (there are two slightly different thicknesses used).
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
Another way to count turns very easily and very cheaply, is a pedometer device (walking meter/calorie counter).
Take out the spring loaded magnet/weight and use an external magnet to trigger the small internal reed switch.
I bought one about a month ago just for this purpose.
Should possible to couple it to a cordless drill to wind a thousand turns in next to no time.
Rob
yeah, that would have worked very well....although I'd have to buy something then. It was more that I already had my dataloggers.....and setting it up for the turn counter exposed some problems in the software, which I've spent the day redesigning out. My boss wanted me to do the redesign anyway because he wants to use one of the loggers on his RC cars to do all sorts of funky acceleration/shock absorber/speed logging to tune the car special....but now I'm just getting off topic.
To date I haven't spent a single cent on this motor project, everything has been scrap I've kept around, now who's calling all my mess rubbish ;)
btw to anyone replicating, WiLi on the Gnosis board had a good idea for hall effect switches:
Quoteif you need hall switches (that means magnetically triggered solid state switches) and dont have a source for that, just look into your PC-junkyard. Every single ventilator or cooling fan from a power supply or so contains such a little Hall switch. It looks like a transistor, has three legs and is situated on the circuit board somewhere near the magnetic cylinder carrying the fan blades.
I've used ones out of the brushless motors in cdrom's to date (I've been pulling a few of them apart lately) but they're the type with a linear voltage out, not the switching type. I suspect the fan motor ones will be switching, making them much more suitable.
Andrew
@CTG Labs,
The reality of overunity (violation of the principle of conservation of energy) has been proven beyond doubt in the case of SMOT (cf. analysis of http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2383887636280790847 schematically shown in http://omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif).
Practical application of the fact that overunity is real is only an engineering problem. Not an easy one, at that. Some who are attempting to put it in practice may succeed others may not succeed. The fact that there will be researchers who will not succeed in clothing the phenomenon of overunity in a practical engineering device doesn?t overturn the reality of overunity.
To prove that a device violates the principle of conservation of energy is only necessary to show that the output energy is more than the input. It is not at all necessary to show that it can run itself, as appears to be your understanding. You say your device doesn?t run itself (yet). However, does it produce more energy than the energy consumed? If so, can you show data (scope shots etc.) which can demonstrate that?
It is quite difficult to prove conclusively that something is overunity on paper by measureing all inputs and outputs, because how do we measure the exact amount of energy that is going into the friction of the system, or quantify all possible energy sources involved (radio waves being picked up by windings?) and even if you do get everything and it tallies up, it's going to be hard to present these findings to the world, as everyone's more than likely to say you must have made a mistake somewhere.
On the other hand if you've got something that runs itself, it is clearly obvious to any untrained eye that you have something special, and it is easy to demonstrate what you have. This is why I believe it is crucial to get something that is a clearly obvious 'overunity' type device which can run in a closed loop.
Please don't start posting other so called overunity devices, the smot is not proven overunity, as you haven't measured all energy in and out (remember to include all the energy imparted by your hand placing the ball in the smot, and the energy used to hold the ball still initially before letting it go, not just the basic potential energy based on it's height and gravity). btw that gif doens't appear to work, I just get a fortunecity logo.
If anything in putting out more energy than is going in, it has to be possible to make it run itself, ie if you are getting 101% out you should be able to tap off the extra 1% and use the 100% to keep it running.
?It is quite difficult to prove conclusively that something is overunity on paper by measureing all inputs and outputs, because how do we measure the exact amount of energy that is going into the friction of the system, or quantify all possible energy sources involved (radio waves being picked up by windings?) and even if you do get everything and it tallies up, it's going to be hard to present these findings to the world, as everyone's more than likely to say you must have made a mistake somewhere.?
This is incorrect. There is science and it applies the scientific method. If you want to disregard the scientific method, that?s another story.
In the case of the discussed SMOT, as shown in the cited links, the inputs and outputs are understood very well even if the SMOT is not in a closed loop and is not self-running. SMOT is an overunity device beyond any doubt.
That SMOT is violating beyond doubt the principle of conservation of energy is easier to demonstrate than to try to manufacture a working self-sustaining device for that purpose. Manufacturing of self-sustaining device meets with enormous purely engineering (not scientific) problems and inability to make one is in no way a proof that the principle of conservation of energy isn?t violated. It only proves that the concrete researcher is unable to practically construct a self-sustaining device.
Of course, it won?t hurt to show a self-sustaining device for the purposes of proving violation of the principle of conservation of energy. However, as already said, it is not mandatory.
Again, SMOT is proven beyond any doubt that is an overunity device and all of its input and output energies are very well understood.
QuoteThe reality of overunity (violation of the principle of conservation of energy) has been proven beyond doubt .....
This maybe true however nothing beats having a mechanical device running WITHOUT a battery and powering a couple of LED's (if possible) at the same time. The average layperson is more impressed with this then with a battery attached even if the battery is being charged. Too many 'slight of hand' demonstrations has lead to a 'souring' of the perception of even units that appear to be producing anything close to overunity. The people performing 'slight of hand' demonstrations is long and growing longer each day. Tilley being one at the top of the list but there are a lot of others which add to the 'scam' labeling of possible working units... ::) Sigh.. An now we have Mr. Bedini casting shadow on Mike's video by stating that something is 'strange' if you step though it frame by frame without actually coming out stating what is the concern and where in the video the concern is located... :-\ On top of that we have claims of him running a motor with just a capacitor months ago yet only after Mike's video is shown does this new video come to light.. Seems this would have been a 'important' milestone and should have been pushed a little sooner. ??? I wonder if the cavemen fought as much over who discovered fire. :D
Now on the other hand people are going to argue about how much energy was put into the magnets and can you get that energy out without depleteing the magnets. Still I am working on my replication with the hope of having a novelty sitting one my desk spinning away WITHOUT a battery.. ;D
We should not forget that the magnets used in the WM are made with energy taken from an external source. Does anyone know how much electrical energy is required to produce lets say a ceramic grade 8 magnet? With this information, we could then determine for how long the WM would need to continuously run before the true accumulative energy produced by the WM generator plus energy consumed by the motor equals the energy used to create the magnets. If this time was exceeded then I'm happy to declare it OU. This issue has been raised before but somewhat dismissed in my opinion by saying that the magnets will not loose strength. However, this will only be proved or disproved by running the WM for a long enough period of time.
@hydrocontrol,
First, depletion of magnets is non-issue. To magnetize a piece of magnetic material from scratch one needs to apply field created by several hundred watts for less than a second. Thus, even if full de-magnetization occurs (which is never the case) the energy ?released? would be a couple of hundred joules, not enough to explain the claims of even the most modest inventors of overunity machines.
Also, I agree that it?d be nice to have a device running without a battery while powering a couple of LED?s but this will only be an engineering achievement. As I said, not achieving self-sustaining construction is only a proof that the concrete constructor hasn?t been able to achieve one and not that the principle of conservation of energy isn?t violated which is the scientifically important fact. Scientifically, violation of the principle of conservation of energy is a proven fact and now what remains is to have a handy constructor make a practical self-sustaining device based on that violation.
Omnibus wrote:
QuoteAlso, I agree that it?d be nice to have a device running without a battery while powering a couple of LED?s but this will only be an engineering achievement.
But it would be a MAJOR engineering achievement if it can be built repeatably from a simple set of plans and worked EVERYTIME. Not just one out of twenty tries. ::) The only way to change the 'Mainstream' of science is to sit something in front of people that shows undeniable evidence. Having a device sitting on thousands of peoples desks is one of the best ways to 'change' mass perception. The only way to change the masses is to change the perception and that normally requires hitting them over the head with it. ;D
One of the best ways I could think of is to produce a table/desk top cool looking novelty item that everyone just 'has' to have. A wally-world $30. item. After it has been sitting on their table/desk running for a year then just point and shout 'there..your proof of overunity'... but then the next thing you know the governments will be 'outlawing' magnets as hazardous for us. :-[
Seems just recently a scientist at Purdue U that claimed cold fusion was finally vindicated with positive replication from another University. Will we ever see it to fruitation.. Not likely in our lifetime.. Why.. becuase it is not 'Mainstream' science.. Too bad civilizations are too short sighted... :'(
sorry, omnibus, i just can't see any OU in the video.
1 ball enters magnetic field at 8.5 cm -> potential energy goes up (0.5 cm x weight ball)
2 ball falls -> potential energy becomes inertial energy
3 ball leaves magnetic field -> inertial energy becomes less ( as if ball was falling from 8.5 cm height and not from 9.0 cm).
have a nice day, seeandbelieve
@seeandbelieve,
The best way to understand this is to look at omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif.
The gravitational potential energy spent is mgh1 while the gravitational potential energy lost is mg(h1 + h2), that is, greater than the gravitational potential energy spent which is a clear violation of the principle of conservation of energy. All this in a closed loop in the magnetic field which means that no magnetic potential energy has been spent or lost.
@hydrocontrol,
The best way is if science was functioning properly, considering the evidence and not resorting to dishonesty as is the case nowadays.
Like I said, there is ample evicence (cf. SMOT) that the principle of conservation of energy is violated, at that, very reproducibly. No more than that is needed for a true scientist to acknowledge the violation.
As for the practical application, it will come in time, as in may other cases when scientific discoveries have found their place in practical devices.
Please use the proper thread for this debate.
Thanks.
@barbosi,
This is the proper thread.
I'm sorry, I thought this is about a self running motor and atepmts to replicate it.
Since your debate I cannot clasify as News, and is not related to SMOT (no one here in this theard confront thier tests results on different setups), how abot a new thread in " Theory of overunity and free energy" section?
I hardly can see the link between Mike's motor and SMOT.
And people are watching for good news related to Mike's replication.
Me 0.02$
PS: However, if you feel like this is the right place, go ahead; personaly I have no problem ignoring the new trend. Sooner or later another news will put the thread on track.
Regards.
You are correct Barbosi. This should be about the self running motor and replications. My apologies. Going back to replicating now. Should have something to show tomorrow. Now if only my wire arrives..
Quote from: Hoppy on February 20, 2007, 10:25:32 AM
We should not forget that the magnets used in the WM are made with energy taken from an external source. Does anyone know how much electrical energy is required to produce lets say a ceramic grade 8 magnet? With this information, we could then determine for how long the WM would need to continuously run before the true accumulative energy produced by the WM generator plus energy consumed by the motor equals the energy used to create the magnets. If this time was exceeded then I'm happy to declare it OU. This issue has been raised before but somewhat dismissed in my opinion by saying that the magnets will not loose strength. However, this will only be proved or disproved by running the WM for a long enough period of time.
I've heard this myth repeated over and over again in discussions on magnet motors. Magnets do not and cannot "run down" when used in a motor. Magnets do demagnetise over time, but you can't make it happen quicker by for instance opposing two magnets.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2007, 11:58:00 AM
Like I said, there is ample evicence (cf. SMOT) that the principle of conservation of energy is violated, at that, very reproducibly. No more than that is needed for a true scientist to acknowledge the violation.
Nonsense, SMOTs do not in any way violate conservation of energy - if they did, it would be very simple to link up a few of them and have the ball go round indefinitely. Try it - it doesn't work.
I can't believe how people fall for this kind of thing over and over again. People are so willing - eager - to believe that you can build free energy devices that they'll take at face value, and not ever question whether it is possible that the video is faked. A pair of AAA cells in that arrangement will keep the motor spinning for several days.
Let me make a prediction - in a month's time, no one will have managed to replicate this. People will still be trying, and wondering whether they're using the right relay, or if their wire is a gauge too thick.
Agreed. Even if they do replicate and don't use batteries or other trickery, how will they prove that their motors can run for extended periods of time by showing short videos.
Quote from: grunff on February 20, 2007, 02:56:52 PM
I can't believe how people fall for this kind of thing over and over again. People are so willing - eager - to believe that you can built free energy devices that they'll take at face, and not ever question whether it is possible that the video is faked. A pair of AAA cells in that arrangement will keep the motor spinning for several days.
Let me make a prediction - in a month's time, no one will have managed to replicate this. People will still be trying, and wondering whether they're using the right relay, or if their wire is a gauge too thick.
You can prove with video for sure. For a start making one that is high enough resolution to see every little detail would be good. Then f you pick up the device and spin it around on picture, so that one can see there are no external wires, then closeup of all the components so one can see there are no batteries hidden and attached, especially if the frame is made from a clear plastic to show you haven't hidden one inside the frame, and so on.
But aside from that, I'm currently undertaking a science degree in research and development, if(when) I get my motor replication going, I' going to take it to uni with me and do my next research project on it, and study within an accepted academic framework the operation and optimization of this device. But that's just my little dream for the future, the point of it is that a video isn't the be-all and end-all as far as proof goes. You can always have someone verify the design for you, chartered engineer for example, or someone from the New Energy Congress. There are lots of methods of proving such a technology.
And heck, you can still do a lot with a relatively short video, Mike's was definitely long enough, a minute of so of that motor spinning (and accelerating) was more than enough to show there's something special there. If someone effectively did that video in higher resolution and did the whole checking all sides and under it to prove there's no external wires, then you're set.
Omnibus, I certainly don't mean to discount scientific method, I'm effectively studying it, and know just how important it is in a proof to convince the scientific population, but there have been lots of devices that have been scientifically proven and still dismissed by the scientific community, this is why I say we need something a lot more obvious and in-your-face.
No scope shots yet from anybody ?
If you have a motor also only running on a power supply,
please post somescopeshots, so we can see, where the spikes
are going.
I really want to see, if Mike really did accidently invert all his scopeshots.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
@grunff,
?Nonsense, SMOTs do not in any way violate conservation of energy - if they did, it would be very simple to link up a few of them and have the ball go round indefinitely. Try it - it doesn't work.?
Nonsense is your statement. On the contrary SMOTs do violate conservation of energy even if a few of them are not linked up to have the ball go round indefinitely. This has to be understood once and for all so that discussions such as this can be put in the right perspective. Discussions such as this are only about some engineering aspects of applying the fact that conservation of energy can be violated (proven by SMOT). Nothing more. It is not true, as some here have incorrectly indicated, that in order to prove violation of conservation of energy a self-sustaining motor has to be constructed and demonstrated.
That?s why this is the right place for such discussions.
Also, for a device to violate the principle of conservation of energy is only necessary to demonstrate that the energy obtained is more than the energy consumed. It is not at all mandatory to demonstrate a self-sustaining motor for the purposes of proving violation of conservation of energy. Demonstrating a self-sustaining motor is only an engineering achievement and not accomplishing such only proves that the particular constructor hasn?t been able to make use of the violation of conservation of energy. Not that such conservation isn?t real.
Unfortunately, so far, as Stefan points out, no scientific proof has been shown confirming that the devices presented in this thread produce more energy than they consume. If that?s the case (that is, if the devices in this thread don?t demonstrate more energy out than in) all these efforts are a waste of time with regard to the topic discussed and should be abandoned. Again, not that no self-sustaining device has been shown in this thread but in this thread no device has been shown conclusively to produce more energy than the energy spent for its running as it is shown to be the case for SMOT.
QuoteI've heard this myth repeated over and over again in discussions on magnet motors. Magnets do not and cannot "run down" when used in a motor. Magnets do demagnetise over time, but you can't make it happen quicker by for instance opposing two magnets.
I think that there is reasonably credible evidence of certain configurations that relatively quickly demagnetize magnets. For sure heating neos will damage them.
I have followed this "Mike" motor thing on several sites over the past week or so. At this point I believe his video was faked. If his video was not a fake, it is by far the most impressive device I have seen.
I don't believe that anybody has produced a self-runner to date. There are numerous people implying that they have built one or more self-running devices, but they seem to become very evasive when you start asking specific questions about them. (questions that should be easy to answer if you actually had one.) You get all kinds of reasons why self-runners aren't important, etc.
My translation of "self-runners aren't important" is: "I don't have one, and never have had one".
I don't find the Bedini video to be nearly as impressive as Mikes. The Bedini video looks believable. Mikes looks unbelievable. That's why if it is for real it is the real deal. Since Mike disappeared, I believe it was a fake that would soon be exposed.
I hope I'm wrong.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2007, 03:45:50 PM
Nonsense is your statement. On the contrary SMOTs do violate conservation of energy even if a few of them are not linked up to have the ball go round indefinitely. This has to be understood once and for all so that discussions such as this can be put in the right perspective. Discussions such as this are only about some engineering aspects of applying the fact that conservation of energy can be violated (proven by SMOT). Nothing more. It is not true, as some here have incorrectly indicated, that in order to prove violation of conservation of energy a self-sustaining motor has to be constructed and demonstrated.
Well, I know you're incorrect, but in the interest of science, let's investigate this further.
What data can you present to show that a SMOT violates conservation of energy?
Wow, another SMOT thread...
Great... ::)
@grunff,
?Well, I know you're incorrect, but in the interest of science, let's investigate this further. What data can you present to show that a SMOT violates conservation of energy??
On the contrary, you are incorrect.
I repeat especially for you:
The best way to understand this is to look at omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif.
The gravitational potential energy spent is mgh1 while the gravitational potential energy lost is mg(h1 + h2), that is, greater than the gravitational potential energy spent which is a clear violation of the principle of conservation of energy. All this in a closed loop in the magnetic field which means that no magnetic potential energy has been spent or lost.
@Dingus_Mungus,
SMOT is the crux of the matter in these discussions.
All,
please don?t post any SMOT related discussion into this thread,
otherwise I will delete it.
This thread is only for the Mike modification motor.
You can post SMOT related things into the other SMOT threads...
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan. (admin)
Have not seen this posted.
This is a better drawn circuit diagram version of the Mike motor modification
thanks to user EMdevices.
See the attached picture.
Many thanks to EMdevices.
@Stefan,
Referring to SMOT is unavoidable in any thread related to devices violating principle of conservation of energy since it is the only one so far demonstrating that violation beyond doubt. At that very easily and reproducibly. SMOT also helps understand why it isn't necessary to have a self-sustaining device in order to claim violation of the conservation of energy. The only necessary thing to demonstrate such violation is to prove that output energy is more than the input.This point isn't understood by many dealing with the area of overunity. Not to say that most overunity devices are conceptually stemming from SMOT.
Understanding of the above is crucial for anyone trying to replicate Mike's device as well. It is the lack of understanding of the above that prevents many of those carrying out experiments to present actual data of the input and output energy thinking that the only thing that matters is whether or not the device is a self-sustaining one.
Omnibus,
this is a thread for the replication attempts and for measurements
around the Mike motor.
If you want to discuss the theory behind it,
please open a new thread, but to ALL, please leave this thread
just for technical data details of replications and measurement
discussion.
Many thanks for understanding.
Regards,Stefan.
Quote from: Omnibus on February 20, 2007, 05:54:53 PM
The best way to understand this is to look at omnibus.fortunecity.com/smot.gif.
The gravitational potential energy spent is mgh1 while the gravitational potential energy lost is mg(h1 + h2), that is, greater than the gravitational potential energy spent which is a clear violation of the principle of conservation of energy. All this in a closed loop in the magnetic field which means that no magnetic potential energy has been spent or lost.
The above statement makes zero sense. If you'd like to discuss this further, how about explaining, step by step, what you think is happening.
Omnibus, if the metal sphere can be stopped above H1 and beyond the field m>g then a simple ladder will complete the loop. Mainstream science states this cannot be done. Stopping the sphere below H1 is not proof of anything.
@Stefan,
Technical details and measurement discussion isn't occurring properly, as you can clearly see, because there is a widespread misunderstanding that what matters is to have a self-sustaining motor and mothing else. You yourself asked several times for data but to no avail.
My point is to have more details and data even if no self-sustaining device is available yet. I have no desire to discuss the essence of SMOT here (there's not much to discuss about it anyway; violation of energy conservation by SMOT is evident). I only used it as an example of a device clearly demonstrating violation of energy conservation without being a self-sustaining one so that those replicating Mike's device would feel encouraged to post actual data.
@grunff,
Not at all. I'm not going to do this. I've said enough about it and it's up to you to understand it. Besides, this is not a thread to discuss evident things. This is a discussion of Mike's device and I used SMOT only as an illustration of how a device can violate conservation of energy without being a self-sustaining one.
@bitRAKE,
?Omnibus, if the metal sphere can be stopped above H1 and beyond the field m>g then a simple ladder will complete the loop. Mainstream science states this cannot be done. Stopping the sphere below H1 is not proof of anything.?
This is evidently wrong and I?m not going to discuss it here.
Can we get back to the window motor now?
D.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 20, 2007, 06:09:51 PM
Have not seen this posted.
This is a better drawn circuit diagram version of the Mike motor modification
thanks to user EMdevices.
See the attached picture.
Many thanks to EMdevices.
Not exactly the way was posted: 1 has no connection to +12V, nor GND. In this picture is more a symbol.
However, this symbol (1) & 2 make together a good replacement for reed switch. Or the other way around...
However, I tried lately to play with SSG & apply Mike's principle with 3-rd coil. I found the hard way (by building) another mechanical fixture that HDD berings are much beter than regular ones (duh!). I couldn't believe my eyes the difference. the speed was roughly 1/3 and I could literaly hear the waste of energy.
So lesson 1 (at least for me), excelent mechanical setup is a must.
Regards.
Quote from: CTG Labs on February 20, 2007, 07:37:13 PM
Can we get back to the window motor now?
D.
Hi Dave,
can?t you at least tell us,
if the spikes in your scopeshots are positive or negative,
if you don?t want to share them here ?
I really must know, if Mike inverted his scope shots accidently.
Many thanks.
Quote from: barbosi on February 20, 2007, 07:39:49 PM
Not exactly the way was posted: 1 has no connection to +12V, nor GND. In this picture is more a symbol.
However, this symbol (1) & 2 make together a good replacement for reed switch. Or the other way around...
Regards.
Hi Barbosi,
yes, the 1 and 2 parts are not exactly the things Mike
used, as he used a Hall ICwith an open collector transistor to
switch the internal LED of the SolidState Relay.
This way the SS Relay was switched on and off.
But you are right.
Part 2 in EMdevices drawing could
probably substituted by just a reed switch positioned
at the right distance around the magnets and part 1 would
not be needed.
Then the reed switch would just close for a few miliseconds
and open up again, when the magnet has passed by.
Too bad, noboy yet has posted scopeshots.
It would be okay to post scopeshots also, if you
drive your motor from a power supply.
The most important scopeshot now needed is the
scopeshot of the voltage at coil 2 and directly at the capacitor
during operation, when then transistors are switching.
Also the charging current at the cap would be great
to have as the voltage on a shunt there.
By the way, by looking at the transistors one user told me,
that the transistors Mike used in his videos are probaby
not the types MSPxxxxx as these are much smaller...
so Mike probably used different transistors.
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan,
I dont know where Mike took the readings. If they are across the cap then they must be right because the spikes must be positive to charge the cap and in any case would have come through the bridge so...
If he read it across the coil, then they must be negative because they come from back emf of the coil as the field collapses back upon the coil after the transistor turns off then in my opinion it was inverted.
Perhaps he was reading two channels at once and needed common ground and used one channel back to front and forgot to invert it.
Are you happy now?
D.
Hi Dave,
many thanks for the scope shot.
But where was it taken ?
At the cap or at the main coil ?
Why are there so many oscillations going on ?
From the corrected scopeshot
scope_main_coil_corrected.jpg
it seems you are confirming, that the spikes go negative
and Mike did indeed posted inverted scopeshots,
so my corrected versions are correct.
Do you agree ?
Maybe you transistor circuit is not
tuned or setup right or has too much amplification, so you get
these huge oscillations at the switching voltages ?
Regards, Stefan.
The scope is connected where the bridge is connected to the main drive coil.
If indeed this is where he took the measurement, then yes, I confirm it must have been inverted.
There are many spikes because as the magnet passes the trigger coil a feedback oscillation is created then between the drive coil and the trigger coil which lasts until the magnet leaves the other side of the coil and it is these spikes in my opinion which can charge the cap.
Early days yet. More when my new motor is ready.
D.
Hi
How fast can the rotor run?
I have an idea how to improve the efficiency of the drive circuit.
Usual diodes, developed for 50 or 60Hz mains supply rectifier are quite slow. When the current changes the direction quickly, they need some time to close. It is called 'recovery time' in the datasheets. During this time, the current can return back and the energy is lost. For all applications, where the frequency is higher than few kHz's or very narrow pulses are rectified, use diodes that are marked as "fast diode" or "for TV line output". I dont know which diodes are available in your home country, but try to replace all diodes, including the bridge ones by the fast types.
And the same about the power transistors driving the main coil. I can recommend Motorola's MJ15003 for NPN and MJ15004 for PNP. They can drive up to 15A and 200V at up to 15MHz safely and are available worldwide. They are used in well known Leach amplifier too.
The small transistor can be BC546 or similar.
Also use the capacitor with "Low ESR" mark. If you dont have the capacitor with reduced ESR (Equivalent Serial Resistance), you can use ordinary types too, but build the battery of smaller capacitors instead of using one big capacitor. The internal resistance of parallel connected capacitors will be didided by the number of them. So 10x2200microfarads are better than 22 000 in one bottle.
This will save some energy.
Tom
Okay, ALL,
I am back from my cellar and cleaning up my old
Newman machine.
Was a good idea back then to partition the coil into 3 subcoils... ;)
Here it is.
Stay tuned for some scopeshots.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: CTG Labs on February 20, 2007, 08:10:05 PM
The scope is connected where the bridge is connected to the main drive coil.
If indeed this is where he took the measurement, then yes, I confirm it must have been inverted.
There are many spikes because as the magnet passes the trigger coil a feedback oscillation is created then between the drive coil and the trigger coil which lasts until the magnet leaves the other side of the coil and it is these spikes in my opinion which can charge the cap.
Early days yet. More when my new motor is ready.
D.
Hi Dave,
thanks for the info.
Now we know for sure, that Mike accidently has inverted all his scopeshots,
probably due to the common ground setup and he forgot to press then
the invert button
on his scope input channel.
Dave, why do you want to build a new motor ?
Can?t you just try to tune the current one ?
With some iron plates glued onto the rotor,
so you will have a hexagonal rotor you could probably easily
stick the rest of your magnets onto your rotor.
Then you could try to use a reed relay switches to switch
instead of the transistors and SS relay for instance.
The trick seems to be to switch at least 2 different voltage
coils
in series and then in parallel across the cap while
the rotor is turning at the right intervals.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi,
Gustav Pese just emailed me this link.
This is pretty interesting reading, if one
is switching coils:
http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/indkick.html
Regards, Stefan.
Normally with coils you have Voltage_induction = L x di/dt
Now if you also change L over time it must be something like:
Voltage_induction = d ( L(t) x i(t) ) / dt
which has a much different solution, where more energy important terms
come up.
IMO Pese's link to 'Inductive Kick' is getting to the heart of what is going on in the WM and other energiser devices. Nothing magic just understanding what inductors and caps do in different configurations by transferring energy back and forth. What we can be sure of is that this process is not perpetual. Thanks for posting this Pese. Although I am aware of the theory, I had not seen this particular document.
I just cant help notice the similarity between this Bedini-Cole motor and the PM (permanent magnet) stepper motor. The PM stepper motor has similar rotor (N-S-N-S-...) magnet arrangement, but different stator winding.
If you used a bipolar PM stepper motor before, you'll probably notice the similarity (not exactly the same) of the transistor driver circitry (H-bridge) that can also achieve total isolation of the coil and also the bridge diode configuration for the back emf handling.
some years back I used the PM stepper motor for some industrial applications and I remembered I had a lot of problems with the "unwanted" spikes here and there. Normally the standard driver circuit just "short out" the spikes to the supply lines. But I remember once I did use part of the back emf (using zener diode), not completely "throwing" it away, and it did manage to DECREASE the power requirement for the motor. I was quite amazed since only a few old technical notes mentioned of this zener diode usage, while the majority of technical notes available just simply told me to short out the back emf, what a waste of energy !
Well, the main difference with the Bedini-Cole setup is that I didn't use ANY capacitor for the back emf reservoir, and unlike this Bedini-Cole motor, I didn't use any timing circuitry for back emf feedback. As soon as the driving pulse stops, the back emf is captured, or should I say "not thrown away".
Maybe if I used some sort of timing circuitry for the back emf feedback, I might get a sharper and higher back emf spike. And if I used a capacitor it might be more beneficial for the whole setup.
Well, I'm not saying a PM stepper motor can operate as a self runner, since there are also a lot of differences between the 2 motors. But I am saying that from my personal experience the use of back emf (feedback) has a significant effect on the reduction of power usage.
Considering that most EE studies nowadays is to minimize and eliminate the spikes and other "switching" noises, I believe we know very little of their potential if we were to use them instead. if we were to MAXIMIZE them, I believe the idea of a self runner is not so far fetched. ;D I hope so...
Hi All,
I just did this test with my Newman coil and a stack of a few 9 Volts NiMH batteries and a graetz bridge
from 1N4007 and 2 different capacitors !
Wow, I can just charge up the 0.22 uF cap in a few seconds and only with a few open and closing
of sw1 to about a few hundred volts in about 3 seconds and
the same goes , if I replace this cap instead with a 15.000 uF 30 Volts type
I had lying around, I can get this cap to charge up to 15 Volts and even higher in 3 seconds
by just tapping sw1 a few times and giving the rotor a slow push inside ths coil !
When I short out then the 15 Volts charged up 15.000 uF cap , it gives me a real good spark
at the connections !
This is amazing, how fast these caps charge up.
Okay, my opencircuit voltage from the coil is around 800 to 1000 Volts peak to peak from this about 16,9 kOhm
DC resistance coil with about 4,65 Kg of copper wire.
I have now still all 3 partitial coils of my Newman coil in series as it was before.
Now I will use the charged up cap to pulse this charge into a partial coil of this Newman coil.
Let?s see how this works....
Have to repair first the commutator of this machine
for snyced operation though...
Stay tuned for more !
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: See attached circuit diagramm. Sorry for the sloppy drawing, but I rather
make experiments than to draw longer time in a circuit design program...
But at least I am doing circuit diagrams at all ! ;) Do you hear this Dave ???? ;)
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 21, 2007, 10:53:58 AM
Hi All,
I just did this test with my Newman coil and a stack of a few 9 Volts NiMH batteries and a graetz bridge
from 1N4007 and 2 different capacitors !
Wow, I can just charge up the 0.22 uF cap in a few seconds and only with a few open and closing
of sw1 to about a few hundred volts in about 3 seconds and
the same goes , if I replace this cap instead with a 15.000 uF 30 Volts type
I had lying around, I can get this cap to charge up to 15 Volts and even higher in 3 seconds
by just tapping sw1 a few times and giving the rotor a slow push inside ths coil !
When I short out then the 15 Volts charged up 15.000 uF cap , it gives me a real good spark
at the connections !
This is amazing, how fast these caps charge up.
Okay, my opencircuit voltage from the coil is around 2000 Volts peak to peak from this about 16.8 kOhm
DC resistance coil with about 10Kg of copper wire.
I have now still all 3 partitial coils of my Newman coil in series as it was before.
Now I will use the charged up cap to pulse this charge into a partial coil of this Newman coil.
Let?s see how this works....
Have to repair first the commutator of this machine
for snyced operation though...
Stay tuned for more !
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: See attached circuit diagramm. Sorry for the sloppy drawing, but I rather
make experiments than to draw longer time in a circuit design program...
But at least I am doing circuit diagrams at all ! ;) Do you hear this Dave ???? ;)
Considering the inductance of the coil, I would sugest to rerun the experiment without the switch. Just to understand if the voltage is induced in coil, then rectified, how fast the capacitor is charging? After this experiment, can you determine what is the contribution of the switch? (In term of charging time)
Thanks.
Okay,
here is the first scope shot.
This is the open circuit voltage from my Newman coil.
I just did give the rotor magnet inside the coil a push and
let it spin and had the scope connected to the coil.
Here you can see a typical (sine)^2 function of the voltage.
The peak to peak voltage goes about from about 1100 Volts slowly down,
while the rotor magnet inside the coil is rotating at about 2 revolutions per second.
The scope was set to
200 Volts/div
and
100 ms/div
Sorry for the double waveform on there, but the camera
was set to 2 seconds of exposure, so it recorded again the next beam coming in
from left.
Regards, Stefan.
Barbosi, when I tap the switch the voltage just jumps on the cap !
It is amazing how fast it charges up the cap this way.
Without tapping the chargeup is much slower...
So you can see how much energy is inside this spark,
when SW1 opens !
Normally in Newman machines it is used to light up via RF bursts some neon
tubes. Here we just catch is as electrical energy inside the cap ! ;)
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 20, 2007, 05:59:13 PM
please don?t post any SMOT related discussion into this thread,
otherwise I will delete it.
Please don't delete the thread.
Instead, just delete *all* of the off-topic messages by Omnibus.
If you were to do this, then eventually he'd figure out that he cannot ignore your wishes.
@Fred,
well I leave the Omnibus posting in here,
but I will soon create a new topic, where I only can post and
there I will just post a summary of all the important postings from this thread,
this will then be just a educational summary thread, where no discussion is possible.
It willonly feature technical details, so somebody, who wants to rebuild this machine
has all compressed in one place.
As the forum software unfortunately has not yet a moderation feature, where I could
check postings before they are posted, I will leave this thread as it is.
I am supporting tolerance and free speech, so I don?t like to censor anything,
until it is hate or rassism postings..
Thanks for understanding.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Omnibus, you don?t need to post an answer to this, otherwise the flamewars
will probably come up again, which I don?t want..
Thanks.
Here are the exact dimension and parameter of my
coil:
coil is wound 3 coils over each other.
diameter of the copper laque wire:
0,17 mm
length of the wholecoil wire all in all
total of all 3 partial coils:
22250 Meters
total weight of all the copper wire : 4,65 Kg.
inner diameter of the coil: 24 cm.
height of the coil: 30 cm
ohmical resistance of the 3 partial coils:
RL1-2: 9,0 KOhm
RL3-4: 2,4 KOhm
RL5-6: 5,5 KOhm
total DC resistanece of all 3 partial coils : 16,9 KOhm.
The inductance of the whole coil was measured via the timeconstant
T= L/R .
it was : L1-6: 170 Henry.
Winding turn numbers from all 3 coils in series : ca. 29000.
You can see more pics of the coil and the old Newman setup
at:
www.overunity.com/newman2
( look into the 3rd machine pics )
ALso checkout the folder:
www.overunity.com/newman
Okay now for our German friends over here:
Spule: Die Spule wurde aus 3 einzelnen Teilspulen ?bereinander gewickelt, um auch
einmal den Strom in der Spule messen zu k?nnen.
Durchmesser des Kupferlackdrahtes : 0,17 mm.
L?nge des Drahtes aller 3 Spulen : ca. 22250 Meter.
Gewicht des gesamten Kupferdrahtes : 4,65 Kg
Innendurchmesser des Spulenk?rpers : ca. 24 cm.
H?he der Spule : ca. 30 cm.
Spulenwiderst?nde der einzelnen Teilspulen:
RL1-2: 9,0 KOhm
RL3-4: 2,4 KOhm Gesamtwiderstand aller 3 Teilspulen : 16,9 KOhm.
RL5-6: 5,5 KOhm
Die Induktivit?t der Gesamt-Spule wurde wiederum ?ber die Zeitkonstante der
Spule T= L/R gemessen. Sie betrug : L1-6: 170 Henry.
Windungszahl aller 3 Teilspulen zusammen : ca. 29000.
So here are the next tests.
I connected the scope to the Newman coil now as Mike did it.
Okay, it is not yet the exact circuit as Mike has,
but I wanted to show that the spikes goes negative this way and that
Mike indeed did accidently invert his scopeshots.
Here is attached the circuit diagram for the 2 tests and 3 scopeshots.
The first 2 scopeshots were taken with a 0.22 uF / 1000 Volt type capacitor at the graetz bridge
and the 3rd scopeshot was taken with a 150000 uF / 30 Volts type cap at the graetz bridge.
You can see, that when Sw1 is opening, there is a sharp negative spike.
The battery voltage was already much lower then than 50 Volts, cause the batteries
were pretty discharged from other nonrelated experiments before... so in the last scopeshot
they are only around 20 Volts under load when the coil is applied via sw1.
Interesting to see is, that if the capacitor is still discharged,
as it was in the case of the 15000 uf cap , you get almost a rectangular
negative spike !
Okay, now I will try to get something working with using the 3 partial coils
from my Newman coil and switch back and forth between 2 or 3 coils
and use a positive feedback from the charged up cap from the graetz bridge.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: the first 2 scopeshots do not show the supplied battery voltage, cause
I had to trigger at a later point in time, cause I did the switching manually and it was
otherwise not possible to take the pictures without a storage scope, which I don?t own...
@Stefan,
This is a very good idea to gather all important postings in one thread. Now it's very messy and confusing and most of the data hangs unexplained. If possible, please, make a summary of the concept and what has been demonstrated so far. Thanks.
I've updated my "juicer" motor per some suggestions. It will run with external 10 volt supply at about 100 RPM. Now I need to get a better pulse generator with adjustable pulse width and phase angle. Note that the capacitor is charged with the 69 ohm coil but the discharge occurs thru the 11.2 ohm black coil. I only need one 2n3055 transistor to do the discharging because the charging and discharging circuits are isolated. I use 4 2N404 germanium transistors diode connected ( collector and base connected together) as the bridge rectifier because the forward drop is only 0.2 volts for germanium. Note also that the charging coil threads 4 magnets at a time.
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini013.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini013.jpg)
http://HoytStearns.com/Steorn/Bedini009.jpg (http://hoytstearns.com/Steorn/Bedini009.jpg)
Hello load of sharp thinkers/clever builders individuals
@Harti_Berlin
170 Henries, you must be crazy!
Beware not to distub the space-time as to reinvent the Philadelphia experiment and being lost in any parallel time line. We need you.
My 2cents:
Some people are saying : this is not OU.
Of Course: OU is imposssibe! A device that runs by itself for hours, with no battery after being slightly flicked up,is, obviously, *not* an OU apparatus. ;D However I whish I could act the same way with my car. OK. It stalls under a load. But is it not worth to be experimented instead of (and while) being criticized? ???
IMHO, this is a semantic nit picking. Perhaps Harti_Berlin should change his web domain name? Instead of "overunity.com", may I suggest him : "COP_Greater_Than_One_Dot_Com"? ;D
Of course I'm kidding.
Else: I had not taken the time to follow this very thread during a couple of days and now I'm absolutely lost!
Actually : I'm also (you bet I'm) attempting to reproduce the Mike device as accurate as possible.
I have "nearly" all the stuff. Please notice that I have aleready built 3 working (=running) versions of the SG Bedini motor. These "motors" are not "self running" and seems? imho? to have a non conventional behavior). I'm far from a scientist, just a computer programmer.
As I was saying : I have got "nearly" all the parts (including the relay and the trans).:
So - should anybody still be reading this post- answer my question which is?: Do you absolutely need this "mysterious" 3030 hall probe? could anybody tell me more about it?
Best
Hi,
AFAIK the hall used is a low power hall effect sensor with common emitter output, that means that the output is connected to ground when magnet is near and not connected to anything(floating) when magnet is away.
The more standard tye of hall effect sensor has a voltage output that is proportional to the magnetic flux it detects, this type should be usable with an extra transistor and resistor so that the transistor switches on/off as you move magnet near/away.
I started doing it this way, but my hall seemed to chew up a lot of power, and ran hot (this was running it through a 5V zener reg, so I don't know why it was hot).
So now I'm looking for a better hall switch. One suggestion is to look in old computer fans, the cheaper the better. These fans all have hall's in them, and many of them will be the switching type of hall you want, although the first fan i pulled apart was a high quality one with ball bearings and a seperate ic in it, and the boring standard hall effect, nota switching one.
@NerzhDishual
You could also substitute the Hall IC via a reed relay switch,
which is turned on,when the magnet passes by.
You could probably notreach such high RPMs, but for a first quick
test this would be okay.
As the hall ICjust switches its open collector transistor on and
thus energizes the LED inside the SS relay, that could also be done
by a reed relay switch.
Regards, Stefan.
@hstearnsjr
looks good your "Juicer" motor.
Do you drive the rotor via this juicer motor too ?
Or is it just only using the bearings and the shaft from it ?
Could you post a circuit diagram ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 21, 2007, 07:22:14 PM
@hstearnsjr
looks good your "Juicer" motor.
Do you drive the rotor via this juicer motor too ?
Or is it just only using the bearings and the shaft from it ?
Could you post a circuit diagram ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
I did not use the juicer motor when running, but the juicer induction motor is very handy when taking measurements ( voltage/rpm on both coils, and 63000 uF capacitor charging time / RPM etc. ).
I'll send a schematic when I draw one and photograph it ( I don't have schematic entry software -- any suggestions? ). It's just an inductive pickup, a 555 timer, and a 2N3055 transistor from the capacitor.
Re: placing magnets
With my juicer motor, I found the easy way to position the magnets without having them move and stick together is to put a thin steel plate over the top of the rotor. The magnets stick to that and I can slide them to the proper position. Then I tighten the straps and peel off the steel plate. Before I did that the magnets slid together and made it very hard to position them. I still have two magnets stuck together and I can't get them apart [ :-( ] . I think I'll have to make a wooden tool to separage them. I think I need a whole set of non-magnetic tools if I continue with this research.
PeterLindemann wrote:QuoteStefan,
This forum is about trying to replicate Mike's variation of John's Window Motor, or John's Window Motor directly. I really think bringing your Newman Motor model into this group is a distraction, as well as being completely irrelevant.
I wish all of your Newman Motor posts could be removed from the forum, scope shots and all!
Peter
Hello Peter and ALL,
I am not using the Newman coil in a Newman configuration.
I am now using this coil just as an Replacement for the Window-Coil.
I just want to see, if it also works with such a normal coil.
ALso as you could see, my open circuit voltage at the coil has about the same voltage output waveform as the Mike motor modification, although it is much higher, cause I have more windings...
So I think these are valid tests...
I don?t use any Newman things with it, just the coil
and the magnet inside the coil.
I hope this makes it all clear.
Please just forget the word "Newman" about it...
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hstearnsjr on February 21, 2007, 08:03:00 PM
Re: placing magnets
With my juicer motor, I found the easy way to position the magnets without having them move and stick together is to put a thin steel plate over the top of the rotor. The magnets stick to that and I can slide them to the proper position. Then I tighten the straps and peel off the steel plate. Before I did that the magnets slid together and made it very hard to position them. I still have two magnets stuck together and I can't get them apart [ :-( ] . I think I'll have to make a wooden tool to separage them. I think I need a whole set of non-magnetic tools if I continue with this research.
What about winding a coil around the Space,where the Magnets stick together
And than suply this coil with a dc ,to create a magnetic field,that works against the Field that both Magnets use to be kombined.?
It might be helpful to separate them.
however good luck
Helmut
I have collected most of the items required and have started to build a window motor as close as possible to the instructions gleaned from Mike. (Pics attached)
The wire for coils 1 & 3 is 0.25mm dia and coil 2 is 0.315mm. Each coil has a total resistance of 45 ohms, wound trifilar with the extra coil 2 length divided equally at the beginning and end . Coil 2 is 417 turns and Coils 1 & 3 are 263 turns.
The magnets are ferrite 150mm x 12mm x 6mm.
The spindle is mounted on roller bearings removed from an old VCR guide roller and spins quite freely, at least 30 seconds with a hand spin.
Now this is where I must show my ignorance of electronics:
Applying 12 VDC to any of the coils causes the rotor to jiggle around, but not to rotate.
Should it be able to spin with a constant current applied, or does it need to be switched on and off at the appropriate point.?
Checking the charging from coil 2 with a hand spin, shows around 2.5V.
I?m looking for some guidance here. Are there any formulas regarding the ratio of coil size and magnet strength etc. Will the coil/magnet arrangement be right when coil 2 can generate around 6V DC at the sort of speed Mike was showing in his video?
My next step was to try a bigger coil, and perhaps some stronger magnets, but I don?t really want to waste my time if someone is prepared to share their experience.
Thanks in advance
SPP-48
SPP-48
nice mechanical setup,
Do you use hall ic, transistors circuit?
i want to build window motor too, but need coils&mechanic parts. i bought electronic
parts.Hall ic is : 3119U (output 25mA) with datasheet, but i didnt find 3020 datasheet.
&neodmium strong magnets.
For optimum coil calculations ,"coil maestro" software can be use.
0.3mm, 48 ohm, R=150mm coil inductance : ~50 mH.
Okay,
SPP-48 now you have a nice motor with the right coils.
Now you need to apply the electronics to switch the coils in the right
timing.
Have a look again at Mike?s last circuit diagram:
And here the circuit diagram again from
EMDevices.
Note, that the Hall IC and SS Relay ( part 1 and 2) are just sketched,
so they just show their function, but not their real inner workings !
By the way, in which posting did Mike say, he used only 10 Ohms for the resistor
at the trigger winding in front of the diode and the 2st transistor ?
In Bedini?s original circuit the resistor was 7,5 KOhm !
EMdevices please clarify.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Here is again the original Cole motor circuit diagram, just posted by John Bedini.
There the first resistor is 7,5 KOhm.
This video is interesting:
http://rpmgt.org/Window1.wmv
@Stefan,
I came in late in this discussion but made an effort to read the initial 20 pages in the gnOsis forum as well as some of the latest postings here. I really hope I?m wrong but I have a feeling that this is another, this time a little more elaborate, playing with people?s enthusiasm. We?ve seen things first hand, I?m sure you won?t deny this. Recall Danny from Ohio, recall Torbay or that other guy with the Bessler wheel, recall @mervace etc. This time it appears that the fraud is taking a different approach appearing for some time extremely cooperative and seemingly providing undeniable evidence. Why is he doing this is another story. I hope it?s not paranoia but I?ve a feeling someone is trying to punish ?those cuckoo?s believing in free energy? in an innovative way, in a way that hasn?t been tried before by making it appear he?s cooperative and sharing. At that, in the same breath presenting something obviously overunity while claiming with a straight face it?s not while laughing at the whole crowd of suckers who fell for his scam.
If the above is wrong this so-called @Mike should come forth once again, should reappear from his den and should allow someone to visit him and carry out independent studies of his now-infamous-motor. If that doesn?t happen in the coming days I don?t see why one should try to replicate a phantom. Unless someone other than @Mike has his own data proving more energy out than in even if the motor he has is still not self-running.
Omnibus,
from the timing and the postings on gn0sis I
have the feeling, that it is not a hoax.
I think Mike just was a beginner and did
not realize what kind of juwel he had built.
As he just said, it is a unity motor and did not realize,
that indeed it is overunity and also because of some other
questions he asked, how to measure, I think our many
questions were too much for him and maybe some people
also emailed him too many times and now he just wants to have
some quiet time to build his second device...
Also as DMBOSS said, that he is already at 135 %,
it seems to be a valid system.
Please be patient.
A few other people are just a few steps away to complete their
rebuild motors.
Also Bedini and Lindeman are looking now into modifying
their original motors.
Regards, Stefan.
.
I work for myself as a washing machine repair man, and became interested in this last week when business was quiet. The job is now megga busy again,so no chance of any building at present. Ther are obviously many very skilled people with good tools working to copy mikes work . My approach would be to build the basic rotor and coils like mike. Then I would try an all mechanical switched approach, which does not stop conversion to transistors later. Mech switching eliminates diode losses. Drive the motor via a commutator similar to the one sshown on fight-4-truth.com website.Use only 2 brushes [ the two on diagram marked SCR andmotor on diagram. Feed motor coil from power source via the 2 brushes]. You can now use a second commutator to connect coil3 to cap. Using these type of commutators, you can vary the timing, pulse width, number of lobes on the commutator, the number of puses per revolution. Cheap simple, and you can see what is going on.
Dear Stefan,
here are the screen shots of my device. I have also included the circuit design of my electronics which is modified. The trigger coil is of course the first coil, the power coil is the one that drives the motor and the pickup coil is the third one. The current ist measured over a 10 ohm resistance. (Positive current is consuming current). The scaling is described in the picture. Before each measurement I charged the cap to 12V and removed the power supply.
PK
@neptune
yes I think this also could be done by the right mechanical commutators.
Good luck on your setup.
@fsearcher.
Many thanks for the scope shots and the PDF File with the
circuit diagram.
How do you connect L2 to L3 ?
This is not shown inside the PDF File.
Do you also use a SolidState Relay or where do you get the
spikes from ?
Do you also have a picture of your actual device ?
Where did you actually take the current.jpg shot at ?
At the 10 Ohm shunt ?
Where was exactly connected ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
I'm not convinced, all of the videos show this motor being wired up to something. I'd like to see a video of this thing simply spinning alone.
Well, from a recent posting at gn0sis and from the new
scopeshots of user fesearcher it seems to get clear,
that what Mike did show us with his first3 scopeshots,
was just the waveforms from coil 1 to 3 but did not include the
switching of the Hall IC and the SS Relay !
The Hall IC switching can only be seen in one of the last 2 scopeshots Mike posted...
It seems, as user Jox pointed out, that the Hall IC is only energized once per revolution !
This energizing can only be seens once shortly in this attached scopeshot.
For clarification I have again inverted it, so the positive voltage is , when the cap is charged.
It is the very right last spike, where the SS Relay switches on.
Thus we have this big falling ramp voltage after it , which charges up the capacitor some more.
It got now clear to me through the scopeshots from Fesearcher, as he did not use
any L2 and L3 coupling as it seems, but already had the same scopeshots as Mike.
It seems, when L2 is switched off, then L1 and L3 get an induction pulse, which
triggers the L1 voltage to rise again and open up the transistor again to conduct and
also L3 can charge the cap at this instance then again, so the first 3 scopeshots from
Mike were just scopeshots without the SS Relay interaction seen.
Only this attached scopeshots shows the SS relay connection from L2 to L3 which brings
in this huge last charging pulse for the cap into the positive voltage direction.
Now the picture is getting much clearer.
Regards, Stefan,
All,
just as a reference, I will post here the
scopeshot of Fesearcher on the trigger coil
and his circuit diagram.
User Fesearcher has no SS Relay between L2 and L3 and you can see,
it is the same scopeshot as Mike had on the trigger coil.
Fesearcher said to me, his motor did run for 5 Minutes,
when charged by 12 Volts and used a 66 milliFarad cap.
You can see, that Mike?s first 3 scopehots are the same.
He just made them, when the SS Relay was not conducting !
Mike did get it only to work,
when he used the SS Relay to make a conection from L2 to L3.
Then the right dL/dt happens.
You can see, that Fesearcher has no connection between L2 and L3
and has the exact same scopeshots as Mike.
So Mike did only show us in the last 2 scopeshots he posted
the interaction with the SS relay when it makes the connection between L2 and L3.
I am interested in building one of these devices and have seen the video of the motor supposedly running without power, but would like to have verification from someone who has replicated the experiment before starting. Can anyone else show evidence that their motor runs without external power?
First post on this page.
Maybe you should read first, then ask questions...
cra1g3r: no there is no new motors built from mikes plans that are self running yet, although some seem quite close. Sorry we can't give you any guarantees yet. There are a lot of people working on replications though (myself included) so hopefully one of us will crack it soon. Feel free to join in as well.
There are other videos of similar original bedini devices around but none seem as convincing as Mikes (i wish his was a better resolution video though).
Andrew
Hello
Last Days i do some search to buy Wire
Result: 2 Eurocent per Meter 0.25mm2 , 0,3mm2
5000Meter cost incl.VAT 100?
service@elosal.de
Did someone make experience by solder wire to make it longer inside a coil?
Regards from Duisburg
Helmut
So you're saying Fsearcher can achieve the exact scopeshot as Mike, without having a self-running unit?
not quite exactly the same, fesearcher (and myself for that matter) hasn't got the big extra negative spike/jump Mike gets when he says his hall comes into play. Other than that our scope shots may have the same shape, but that doesn't mean the voltage levels are all the same.
Just a quick question regarding this self running overunity motor.
What kind of overunity percent are we talking about here?
Is 1 or 50% overunity?
Or is it just 0.1% overunity? ???
Just curious!
Honk, we are talking about 200 to 300 %, otherwise you would not get the rotor to accelerate and the cap to charge up with all the frictional losses.
@All,
Well, Mike just did take his first 3 scopeshots WITHOUT the hall ic and ss relay enabled. This can be seen, cause at least after 3 cycles there should have been otherwise the big pulse, which only shows up in the last scopeshot he posted. (ss-relay-with-hall.jpg)
Now listen:
the On switching of the ss relay will not be seen on the scopeshots, as long as the lower NPN transistor is not conducting !
You will then only see the big spike, when the trigger coil is again jumping its level and switches on the transistors.
Stefan appears to be rewinding his Newman Motor - and one wonders if years ago he originally used a similar design to that of the Naudin/David Motor - it was 9 years ago and reported by Naudin to have run for 4 minutes 30 seconds with NO power input and without a dedicated capacitor even. Who needs a cap with all that wire :)
This "antique" may have been under-appreciated at the time - and yet looking at it again, it has many similarities to the Window motor, and can easily be converted.
There are a number of faithful replications of Mike's design going on now - which are probably NOT showing the spiky noise which is seen in the "Dave" scope-shot. We do not know if that is important. The spikiness seen in the old shots of the Newman Motor are even far greater. Is the noise important? Is there a connection of spikes to so-called "negative current"?
It would be wonderful if there were several faithful replications of Mike's design on the record before attempting to advance that concept even further, but if anyone has on hand an old Naudin/David/Newman motor -- then it might be useful to convert that directly to three coils but keep at least one set of brushes.
Whether this Newman motor is even relevant to anything other than historical curiosity is not certain, but there is plenty of room to start trying some variations on the Mike theme, and perhaps Stephan is continuing with that effort. Especially important is the critical feature of that old design known as the "leaky commutator" which provides an even spikier scope shot (and so-called "negative" current).
In today's context, however, consider this possibility: IF this Newman Motor is redesigned and constructed with the advantageous 3 coil configuration of Mike, or even the two coil of Bedini, instead of one large coil (too large?), then who knows what it can accomplish as a longer "self-runner," compared to the 4+ minutes of the original ? Here is a quote:
"The speed is now 500 RPM at 626 Volts and the interesting effect noticed, is that the MOTOR RUNS ITSELF FOR about 4 min and 30 sec AFTER the power supply has been switched off ! In the previous version (v1.3) my Newman's machine, has stopped after 1 min maximum" Fortunately the site is still up:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/NMac0629.htm
At the bottom of the page there is a description of the brushes, which were thought to be important.
Hmmm ... coincidental or unrelated ?
Regards,
Jones
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 23, 2007, 11:09:34 AM
Honk, we are talking about 200 to 300 %, otherwise you would not get the rotor to accelerate and the cap to charge up with all the frictional losses.
That's not how overunity is defined.
The frictional losses is part of the motor design and if most of the generated
energy consumed by motor friction, then the overunity is max a 1 or 2 percent.
If you really had 200 to 300 % overunity, you could light a large lamp and still
keep the motor running.... This is the kind of overunity we desire. ;D
Honk, right, wait, until we have replicated the effect and understood it and then it is only engineering to scale it up.
Fesearcher just confirmed to me, that he did not have yet a connection between L2 and L3 and is now building his own SS relay from MosFets.
All, who have already a 3 coil motor, but are missing the ss relay could just try to use a mechanical switch in series with that diode to do the connection manually with their hand. Please let us know, what will happen then.
German translation:
Du k?nntest auf die Schnelle mal austesten, einfach einen Taster-Schalter in Serie mit einer Diode von L2 zu L3 zu legen und dann per Hand immer schnell tasten.. Was bringt das dann ?
Es kann sein, dass L3 180 Grad gedreht angeschlossen werden muss ! Viel Erfolg!
Hi Stefan,
here is the circuit of my solid state relais I have built. I kindly share it's circuit to everyone.
PK
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 23, 2007, 12:21:48 PM
Honk, right, wait, until we have replicated the effect and understood it and then it is only engineering to scale it up.
I wish you the best of luck and I look forward to read about your results. :D
Hi Helmut, before you spend a lot of money on wire, try buying it from your local Electric Motor Rewind Shop. Also has any body looked at the wire from the De-Gaussing coils of old televisions and monitors?
@Neptune
Thanks for the idea. I dont know,what is goin on here in Germany.
Prices are really at a high level.
Perhaps tomorrow i will try to get a fiew degaussing coils.Otherwise i hafe to take the spool that i have,but i guess it is 0,1mm2
After analysing the situation,i have decidet to make it a little different.
Maybe here are 10 Rebuilders and everyone does the same errektion.What happend?: all of them succseed or not.
I will try my setup with only 4 Magnets,because i think,if the coil is not able to move the Magnet to the next position,then it does not matter if there are 3 or 5 more magnets.
Thats why i will wind the coil as long,that (if i supply the Coil manualy with a preloadet cap )there is enaugh Power to move the Magnet strongly.The same coil supplyed from a battery must move the opposit direction with the same strenght.
This thest i will see with both coils.And then comes the switching sektion.
What do you think about making a coil quadrofilar?
Regards to all and
God bless the future
Helmut
Okay, here the SS Relay circuit again from Fesearcher as as JPEG pictures
attached to this message.
(You must be logged into the forum to see the picture)
Many thanks.
This is just in from Peter Lindemann:
PeterLindemann
Mike really did it! -
2007/02/23 22:05
Hi All,
John (Bedini) has figured out what Mike did. He will post the thread soon. There is only one scope shot from Mike that is important. When you understand this, it will work.
I take everything back when I said Mike didn't do it!
Mike gave you his real schematic and the scope shot when it is working properly.
Focus on his design, and approach your research systematically.
That's all I'm going to say.
John will say the rest!!!
Peter
Hi Fesearcher,
Thank you for the update on the trigger circuit, I just caught your post about the mosfets in time for when I placed my order for some parts.
I now have all the parts including that illusive ss relay 84131100.
You may find the details I have posted below of interest to compare your circuit with.
Hi WinMotor builders,
Ok update on that solid state relay Crouzet 84131100:
INPUT
=====
Input tested using a 12V 5W bulb connected to a 12V fixed DC power supply on the output and a variable voltage on the input.
Minimum turn on voltage:
2.8v @ 3.7mA
Also the following input currents were measured:
3.0V @ 5.45mA
3.5V @ 6.70mA
4.0V @ 7.00mA
20.0V @ 8.26mA
Removing the LED may be able to reduce the current slightly.
OUTPUT
======
Output tested using a 12V 5W bulb connected to a variable voltage DC power supply and 5V input.
Minimum operation voltage 7.1V
Also the following output currents were measured:
3.0V @ 0.17mA
3.5V @ 0.40mA
4.0V @ 6.60mA
4.5V @ 11.0mA
5.0V @ 14.0mA
5.5V @ 25.0mA
6.0V @ 30.0mA
6.5V @ 36.0mA
7.0V @ 42.0mA
7.1V @ 308.0mA (Fully on)
8.0V @ 324.0mA
12.0V @ 398.0mA
Also I noticed that once the 7.1V peak is reached the relay stays latched on until the voltage drops to zero where it is then released(electronically of course).
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Fss-relay1.jpg&hash=447d23c071010595be70df6d3303da828f69eae0)
Update on my rotor construction:
Aluminium U-chanel is a tight fit on the 50x19x10mm cermic magnets.
So you take a piece of u-chanel and make a series of cuts at 20mm intervals (10mm at each end):
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Fu-chanel-0.jpg&hash=53814643bd30b81a2a792e5e2984393362fb04bf)
Then slot in your 6 magnets:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Fu-chanel-0b.jpg&hash=35e56ab1701c5fb578aaa8837a3e9015d753e165)
Bend each section and form a circle like so:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Fu-chanel-1.jpg&hash=225608952a9b4d5e35bb102c86593e5fd223cbce)
End result again:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Fu-chanel-2.jpg&hash=0c6ee9cc9309911cafad4b46f4f7899b531eeac9)
Then make another to fit on the other ends of the magnets.
Regards
Rob
Rob,
looks nice your new rotor !
Here is the UGN3132 Hall IC datasheet from
Allegro.
It is the new part for the obsolete UGN3030
from Allegro.
Corona posted:
thanks for that stephen,
looking at the datasheet it appears that hall would be a latching type like mine, as it says the operate point is at 32 gauss and release point at -20 gauss, so a N will triger it and a S will release it. This is good.
For reference, my hall is a 3 pin unit that is in the same package as the datasheet one, pulled from a cheap 12V 80mm computer fan, one from out of a computer power supply. The fan had only the hall, a couple of resisters and a couple of transistors in it, no extra ic. these are the kind of fan you want to find these halls, really dirt cheap ones. better quality ones will have ic's for stall protection and the like, and will often have the standard linear output halls in them.
John_Bedini posted;
2007/02/24 00:55
Group,
I will start here, The first thing I want you to notice is the scope shot, this is the only scope shot you need to make this motor work. My work entails the study of all components in the system and what they do. Mike's drawings are correct, and the geometry is correct. Mike's voltages are also correct for the Bedini Cole motor. What happened to Mike was sad that he was questioned to death. Mike did not really know what it was that allowed the motor to run so long, which it did. I'm not Mike, but I can see all the confusing facts here from one point of view to the other.
I'm not saying they are wrong just confusing.
You can not change anything and have the motor work the same, as everything will make a difference.
You can look at it this way, if you are building a Chevy it's a Chevy and not a Ford.
The picture that is the most important is the picture below. notice when his solid state switch is switched it drives the scope very negative in one big pulse it's as plain as day that the switch must be discharging through the coil to give the motor an extra kick and it does.
More later as I run more tests.
John
Okay, John,
I totally agree.
Although, I posted this scopeshot already yeasterday inverted, as the big spike?s highest amplitude point seems to be the cap voltage at the switching point and this must be of course positive, if you measure the cap voltage into the positive direction.
Or are these negative spikes rectified via the graetz bridge into the cap ?
Was this scopeshot taken at L3 or at L2 ?
I guess it was taken at L3.
Hope you will soon post more of your success.
=============================
As I just have seen,
there is a difference between unipolar and bipolar HALL IC switches !
The Unipolar switches at 2 positive Magnetic flux density values
on and off with a threshold between them
and the Bipolar Hall IC , which Mike did use,
switches on at a positive flux density at around 20 mT
and switches of at around - 20 mT !
I wonder, what this means to the motor ?
Does it really switch off at all then,
when just a magnet is waived by in the sync wheel ?
Does the Hall IC ever get a negative flux density then ???
Hmm..
Anyway,
A cheap replacement Hall IC is the Siemens
TLE 4935.
Here is the PDF File.
It can be got for around 1 Euro,
e.g. at www.segor.de
hartiberlin wrote:QuoteAs I just have seen,
there is a difference between unipolar and bipolar HALL IC switches !
The Unipolar switches at 2 positive Magnetic flux density values
on and off with a threshold between them
and the Bipolar Hall IC , which Mike did use,
switches on at a positive flux density at around 20 mT
and switches of at around - 20 mT !
I wonder, what this means to the motor ?
Does it really switch off at all then,
when just a magnet is waived by in the sync wheel ?
Does the Hall IC ever get a negative flux density then ???
Hmm..
Well, hmm, to switch the Hall IC then OFF at all,
he would need a second magnet then to do this with the
inverse polarity !
But Jox said, he did only see one magnet on the sync wheel.
If the first magnet with a North pole facing the Hall IC switches it on, then another magnet must follow with a South pole, to switch it off....
Hmm, does this make sense ?
Maybe he did indeed have the unipolar type, which just
switches on, when one magnet approaches and switches
off, when this magnet leaves , as the field then goes to zero ?
Or how could it be done, that with one magnet only it will
switch on and off, when the magnet just passes by ?
Maybe by turning the magnet be 90 degrees, so the hall
sensor sees North pole approaching and when it leaves sees
the South pole leaving ?
Hmm, strange...
user z_p_e wrote:
It does not appear that the Allegro A3132 is a very "close" replacement for the UGN3030.
The 3132 is about 3x more sensitive, and it's rise and fall times are a magnitude slower.
Both part types require bipolar (i.e. + and - flux) to operate.
The UGN3019 however is unipolar. Equivalent Allegro part A1106.
==========================================
My reply:
Well I just have reread this thread
from the beginning, when Mike was still there.
Mike posted:
user HMM
2007/02/12 02:42
My new relay has an LED indicator, I will give it a try.
2007/02/14 02:41 stefan,
As for the posistion of my flywheel magnets I will give that info later after I have finished my testing.
cheers
Mike
2007/02/15 06:56
@dom I get 2.8v ac spinning by hand
try it with just the main coil to the bridge to the cap and see how fast you can charge the cap to 6v by hand and let me know your results
Mike
=====
1. So now we know, that he got the "new" SS Relay after he
had already done the selfrunning motor video,
so he used for it a different SS Relay, one with a black
top and without an LED in it !
2. He probably used 2 magnets inside the flywheel
(syncwheel) , otherwise he would not have written
"magnets", but just "magnet" !
3. He has got about the right voltage to energize
the SS-Relay at all from the measurement Rob did now make with his new SS relay.
The question is, if Mike did not use
a different SS relay first, as it had a black top and no LED...
Regards, Stefan.
Tonylab7 wrote:
Quote
Hi Stefan , if you read Mike's last post on page 20 , he was useing 3 magnets I believe.
I replied:
Tonylab7,
you are right,
Mike wrote there his last message:
2007/02/16 05:11 thank you Dom,
Lets build and then compare results
I am going to build another to the same specs and see if it performes the same.
When you get your motor to run on a battery, charge a cap off the bridge dc then time the ss relay to dump this charge back on the battery. when you get the correct timing the motor will draw little to no current from the battery. this will be the same timing for the moddified circuit. use three magnets in triangle formation.
Hope this helps
cheers mike
===============
Okay, now we know he used 3 magnets in the sync wheel
oriented in a triangle, so each at 120 degrees positioned
probably .
Now the question is, how was the polarity of these 3 magnets ?
Was it N-S-S or N-S-N ?
You always have one switchon point in the circle
and 2 switch off points, if you go round and round again...
So the first would be with 2 cycles:
N-S-S-N-S-S
and the second would be
N-S-N-N-S-N
So this would only change the duty cycle, which timing
would switch it longer ON or OFF, if he really used the bipolar version of the Hall IC, which needs
different polarity to switch off again.
But he said, when the Hall IC was broken, he was
"looking again for the 3030", which is the bipolar version...
So if North switches the Hall IC on and
South off, then in the first above case the ontime will
be 33,3 % to 66,6 % off
and in the second case the other way around, that means
66,6 % ontime and 33,3 % offtime.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi this is steve, Ive been doing some experiments with coils and bats. Mainly transformer type coils and single AA bats. Been noticing some unusual effect where the bats seem to charge up as they are in use but very slowly.
I wont give my exact designs yet since Im not sure what I will do with them yet, but basic designs are sinply coils usually those with three leeds on one side, two leeds on the other, wiring a transistor and a diode and to a led light to the three leds side. Which causes the coil to pulse with high voltage. I have even made one of these that uses the high voltage sent to a rectifier then to a second AA bat essentially charging one bat with another bat. In the bat to bat charger I Drained the bat I charged running a motor with it to be sure it was drained. Charged it 16 hours with my bat to bat charger and then used that recharged bat to run a motor for 14 hours. Seems to work. Also as to the unusual effects like I said using a single weak bat put in my coil pulser, the bats slowly charge up, This was not my bat to bat charger device here,,the bat can be seen to charge up either by leaving the meter connected to the bat as its in operation in the device and watching the numbers slowly rise in time, or by simply
testing it before and after use with the same overall reading results. I am using a single double AA bat in my coil pulsers. Im assuming the high voltage is somehow self charging the bat to some degree since I end up with higher reading after many hours or a day or nite of use whichever way it goes, basically 12 hours trials so far. And like I said leaving the meter connected to the bat ,,or simply turning the meter on and off over time,,same difference I see the numbers rising slowly,,not falling. Anyway for those interested just give it a try,,seems to be many ways to wire it so the transistor will cause the coil to pulse with high voltage. You can tell you have high voltage by several ways,,one the led will light or blink,,depending on how you wire it,,since the leds I use wont lite up except with 2 double aa bats. But one bat will work if its powered by high voltage from a coil running it,,or you can simple stick your tongue on the two output wires usually on the other side of the coil,,which by the way will zap you but it wont hurt to bad lol. Anyway something to look into no doubt. Ive noticed a new bat used in the coil flasher device will fall in digits,,usually on the 2000m dcv setting in no time,,however once a point is reached
they fall no more if the device is wired correctly.. And if you use a weak bat the digits which show up low on the meter will rise over time , usually several hours,,on the meter to a certain point then level off, tho they may keep rising if its powered longer.Once they level off they seem to remain there no matter how long you run the devices/pulsed coils.. All tho I have only ran them around 12 or so hours so far. On a few newer designs Im working on I have been getting the digits to keep rising but slowly with the hopes since I usually use weak bats to see if I am getting any results,,to maybe reach a design that would fully charge its own weak bat up all the way. Anyway hope that helps someone,,by the way if you want to contact me,,send me a pm in messenger under the name inhabitor2005
Hi Steve,
You can get a device radio controlled model makers use - Ripmax peak prodigy pro.
I can measure the capacity of a battery by drawing a constant current from it over a period of time.
Perhaps an easier method is to use very large electrolytic capacitors instead of batteries. You can work out the energy used and energy generated by the voltage and capacity of the capacitor.
Is there any way of connecting your device to be self running?
If the Winmotor works I will be doing the same as you and make a solid state version and apply the ideas obtained from the WinMotor to a modified MEG device.
I think you are on the right path, keep going and post some results.
Regards
Rob
Mr. DMBoss,
Good info.Thanks for Alexander's Pat.
Nic
Quote from: DMBoss on February 19, 2007, 06:56:23 AM
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 18, 2007, 10:18:22 PM
argona369 wrote:
QuoteRemember, Duplication replication modification.
I am ROTFL... I will be surprised if anyone gets a self running motor within the next month (++) with the approaches taken so far. Shotgun approaches seldom work. :o I maybe wrong (hope I am) and someone may get lucky. ::) I wonder if Mike knew what a Pandoras box he opened. :P Without Mike providing a few more details a real replication effort is most likely to fail. I suspect Mike is were I would be if I had a self running motor in front of me. First eurphoria, then disbelief, then shock, then paranoia as tons of people are after him for more information. Is anyone surprised he went underground. Not me.. Perhaps he will come back in a couple of weeks.. I see John Bedini has joined the fray as well since it was based on his window motor (thanks) but so far I have only seen one video of a self running motor off of common capacitor and not a battery and that is Mike's video. So my hat is off to Mike for achieving what others had hoped to achieve. Mike.. if you happen to be reading this then ..Great job Mike.. Hope you are well and thanks for a glimmer of hope.
I concur. Haphazard replication without knowing the details or worse with thinking you know what/why makes it work without any data to go on are a recipe for failure.
I have found what appears to be a serious teaching and example of prior art of the working principle Mike has stumbled upon.
See attached patent by Alexander, US3913004.
It uses a motor-generator with closely coupled coils acting as transformer between the motor/primary and generator/secondary.
Mike's relay is nonsense and can't conduct as it is for AC and switches on/off at zero crossing, and only operates well above the voltage he has here.
But his "generator coil" (3rd coil) is always connected to the capacitor through the FW bridge!
If this were true, then I reasoned I should be able to do some tests on the bench to verify the principle. I did so with an old Adams style pulse motor that has dual wound coils.
I can get more charge going to the capacitor than is delivered to the motor coils. BUT only under very tight specifications! This test bed cannot self run - but it can indicate what makes Mike's and Alexander's device work. (however it told me the right ballpark of things to do to make a decent replication of Mike's motor/generator)
The optimal coil ratios are important as the generator coil has the FWD diode drop to contend with. So generator coil has to be more turns than motor coil as Alexander teaches and my bench tests revealed as well.
1:1 ratio of generator to motor coil turns yields no charge on capacitor. 2:1 ratio makes a tiny gain in excess charge. 3:1 ratio is worse in that far more charge is used for motoring than is generated here with optical timing.
the best so far is a ratio of 3:2, or 1.5:1. That is for every 1 turn of motor coil you need 1.5 turns of the generator coil. (the geometry magnetic fields, and coil wire resistance will affect things greatly - what Alexander found was for a commercially available motor generator that he rewound)
Generator coil should be larger wire size than the motor coil for lower DC resistance or the same DC resistance as the motor coil even though it is longer wire length. (well I am guessing here based on what makes the best lowering of the motor coil's Counter EMF by the transformer action - only experiment will tell for sure. But the coil impedance ratio is an important factor and Mike did use two different wire gauges. I'm not as sure about the correct coil resistance values as I am about the rest of the info in this message)
Timing is ultra critical and will NOT work to make excess charge even if the coils were perfect! the timing envelope needs to be adjustable - so work that into the transistor circuit and/or the trigger winding turns count. (the voltage is nearly sine like, and trigger window needs to be a slice starting at about 10-30% above zero for ON, and then about 10-30% before it crosses zero again - only one half the waveform is for motoring action while generator action proceeds all the time with the FW bridge) (I know exactly why this might work if I am right about the Alexander action, from considerable experience with pulse motors that are O/U on the bench but the explanation is too long for now)
Also note the US patent office issued a patent to Alexander 30 years ago for an over unity machine, where he specifically claims 300% gain in useful output! So conspiracy theorist's arguments about "suppression" are dashed. The only suppression is our own ignorance and the members of the flat earth society in academia that refuse to look at claims of O/U still, due to the ingrained dogma.
Also maybe knowing that Mike is merely replicating a form of Alexander's teaching might lift some of the burden he may feel at being this "pioneer" when in fact the knowledge is already out there.
Mike merely made an electronically commutated version of Alexander in my view, and from my preliminary tests on the bench. I have enough detail to try one now, although my ballpark values may need adjusting when Murphy kicks you in reality. It may or may not work the first time out. testing and analysis of results of the first one.... and then modifications may be required to get it right.
Cheers
Hi, still very busy at work, so no building in the near future. Has anybody considered using the ceramic magnets from old Microwave ovens? These are disc shaped, about one cm thick and about 5 or6 cms diameter. They are very powerful but have a hole through the middle. WARNING. Microwaves have a cpacitor which may hold a charge of several thousand volts for moths after use. So discharge it in a sefe manner before tinkering. Do not try to use this cap on your motor as it has a built in "bleed" resistor.
Also, for securing magnets, plastic cable ties may work better than tape. To those doing research, I wish success.
MeggerMan wrote:Quote
Hi Stefan,
I can see you are excited, we all are, but I wish you would research more before posting incorrect / misleadng information on the forum.
I posted last weekend all the specs on various hall switches, one of which was the OHS3030U:
http://www.optekinc.com/pdf/OH090-0HS3100.PDF (http://www.optekinc.com/pdf/OH090-0HS3100.PDF)
which is UNIPOLAR.
Operate 205 gauss and release 160 gauss.
Therefore it would make more sense that this is indeed the one that Mike used.
You need to start building one rather than just talking about it.
Rob
Hi Rob,
well in one drawing Mike wrote,
that he is using a bipolar 3030 hall IC.
Do you think he mixed something up there ?
Maybe he meant inded unipolar and not just bipolar
and just mixed that up...Hmmm...
Too bad, Mike is not anymore here .
Does anybody still have private email contact with him ?
Maybe someone can ask him and let us know some answers...
Thanks for pointing out this PDF file above.
Sounds also more realistic to me, if he used this one.
Many thanks.
Best regards, Stefan.
Peter Lindemann wrote a nice guide about the eddy currents:
Hi All,
I?ve seen a few things in different people?s photos and comments that are worth addressing. My comments are based on my own experience in building these types of machines.
Dave, the pictures of your plastic frame are great. But before you start winding your coils on it, make sure that your winding frame is fully strain relieved from the bearing system mounts. Notice that John used other plastic pieces between the end frames for this purpose.
As for being able to use Neo Magnets in this motor, let?s look at the evidence. First, I didn?t see where Mike said he was using Neos or ceramics. So, do we know what kind of magnets he used?
Second, the very first Window Motor that John worked on for weeks and Ron Cole took to NBC and got confiscated DID have Neo Magnets in it. In those days, Neo Magnets were very expensive and each magnet in that motor cost more than $300 each. The motor had six of these magnets in it and cost more than $1800, just for the magnets. So, when he didn?t get it back, John was pissed off, to say the least! That motor operated at or near ?unity? like Mike?s, and the Neo Magnets did not stop it from working.
The only drag mechanisms I have seen in John?s new set-up have to do with small current leakages through the trigger coil circuit diode. When this is disconnected, the rotor will spin in the coil for a long time, and even charge the cap through the FWB with NO DRAG that I can observe, other than bearing friction.
So, I do not see that the Neo Magnets are causing a problem. They may be, but I don?t see it.
That said, eddy currents CAN be a problem anytime you are around magnetic fields this large. Any IRON that is not rotating nearby definitely will cause eddy current drag. This is also true for large pieces of Copper. Aluminum does not seem to cause as much drag as Iron or Copper. Some of you are mounting your magnets with aluminum end brackets to hold them to the rotor. As these aluminum pieces are situated BETWEEN the magnetic field of the magnet and the magnetic field of the coil, they may cause secondary interactions which are difficult to quantify. Just be mindful of any current carrying materials that are in the magnetic field and subject to the flux changes of the system.
Also, John and I have seen some situations where aluminum nearby these systems can actually be beneficial because of delayed eddy current behavior. The bottom line is, that eddy currents can be complex and problematic in some circumstances. So, the warning is worth investigating.
A simple test to see if the Neo Magnets are causing eddy current drag in your coils is to do a simple test to see how long the rotor will spin with the magnets on the rotor in the bearings, with NO COILS mounted on the frame. Then mount the coils and spin the rotor again, making sure that the coils are not connected to any other part of the circuit. If the rotor spins for the same amount of time, then eddy currents in the copper of the coils are NOT a problem. If the rotor spins for less time, then eddy currents in the copper of the coils ARE a problem, and the Neo Magnets should be replaced.
The main idea here is: Don?t guess! Run the experiment and find out.
Unregulated, the Window Motor works equally well as a motor or a generator, as the induction principle is the same. You can see this in the video Rick put up where he and I are testing one of John?s early models. When the rotor comes up to full speed, the back EMF (reverse generated voltage) reduces the motor current to ZERO on the 5-amp meter (in reality, about 20ma). To bias the benefit toward the generator side, the motor function must be regulated and PULSED at the right time, while the generator is just harnessed to charge the cap. This remains true, no matter what kind of magnet you use.
Enough for now,
Peter
To All, who have a Window motor already,
but can?t get it yet to run.
Did you try out yet to manually switch
the L2 to L3 connection ?
What will happen then ?
Does it give the rotor a kick
or does it stall the rotor ?
Please post the results of this test.
Maybe Dom or Ossi can do this test quickly and
let us know.
I think the Hall IC and SS-Relay can be very easily
substituted by something much simpler, like a reed
switch which can just be placed near the main rotor
and be closed by the main magnets.
This will also not use up any power from the cap.
Please everybody try this out and let us know,
what will happen.
Many thanks in adance.
Best regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
Just thought of something that may have been forgotten.
Any motor or generator ac/dc.....needs to seek its magnetic
center.....ie the shaft does float, very little but the bearings being used
could keep the shaft located out of Mag center. This will drasticaly effect
outputs of gen and amp draw of motors.
Just a thought
Regards
Jon
John_Bedini wrote:QuoteThe answer.
ss relay puts the main winding in series with the third winding at the correct time, take into account the rectifier diode in between them. I belive it is working at or near unity.I know that the third winding charges the cap.("" and I think somthing coming through the ss relay helps this charge)
Hi John,
you are absolutely right.
This was it, what I called dL/dt !
Through the SS-Relay you change the total inductance
of the whole system,
when the 2 coils are connected at the right time.
So that is very important, that somebody, who has this motor
now tries to make this test, what is going to happen,
when you manually switch L2 to L3 at the right time.
Will it kick the rotor ?
What will the cap voltage do ?
Hope somebody can do this test and post the results.
Would be good if you could also post a scopeshot.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
I am convinced Mike made a mix-up between unipolar and bipolar, like you say unipolar is the only one that makes sense otherwise you need either pairs of magnets on the rotor or a reverse pole magnet on the other side of the sensor.
Hi all,
Lots more testing tonight with a unipolar hall switch and ss relay. The small neo disks have a very concentrated field so it looks like as long as the small neos are 10mm inside the main magnets inner diameter then there will not be a problem.
Test: hall switch (Allegro A1101)connected to the ss relay(Crouzet 84131100), powered by a variable voltage bench supply. Test magnet is a 5mm x 3mm N40 disk neodymium.
Supply voltage was started at 2.8V and run up to 8.0V in 0.5V steps. Disk magnet needed to be less than 8mm from the IC to trigger it.
2.8V Off 2.41mA On 6.35mA
3.0V Off 2.64mA On 7.69mA
3.5V Off 3.23mA On 10.15mA
4.0V Off 3.47mA On 10.54mA
4.5V Off 3.50mA On 10.76mA
5.0V Off 3.51mA On 10.93mA
5.5V Off 3.52mA On 11.08mA
6.0V Off 3.53mA On 11.19mA
6.5V Off 3.54mA On 11.32mA
7.0V Off 3.55mA On 11.45mA
7.5V Off 3.56mA On 11.60mA
8.0V Off 3.58mA On 11.71mA
Update on the rotor, still need to make up the hub disks:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Frotor-2.jpg&hash=7b3776efcaf6f6aa45f592e7ad7fd2b354c91915)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Frotor-1.jpg&hash=bafe3d26131584ad8e4a5b0c761c611bf5ab3248)
Regards
Rob
Hi Rob,
many thanks for the update,
does that mean, you have actually connected L2 to L3 via
the Hall IC and the SS-Relay yet ?
Do you have a scope ?
How do the scopeshots look directly at the cap
or directly across the coils ?
How often do you connect L2 to L3 during one
rotation of the rotor ?
How long ?
How many milliseconds ?
Do you power the Hall IC now from an external powersupply ?
It sounds, as this is pretty much current wasted via this Hall IC and
SS Relay.
Fesearcher told me, he only needed 3 mA with his selfmade SS-Relay,
but he did it also not get it to work yet...
Hmm...
Maybe Mike did a few more errors in his circuit diagramm, not just
mixing up the Hall IC type ?
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 24, 2007, 03:27:55 PM
To All, who have a Window motor already,
but can?t get it yet to run.
.....
I think the Hall IC and SS-Relay can be very easily
substituted by something much simpler, like a reed
switch which can just be placed near the main rotor
and be closed by the main magnets.
This will also not use up any power from the cap.
Please everybody try this out and let us know,
what will happen.
Hi Stefan
Perhaps you can make a drawing to show the circuit
including a Reed?
regards
Helmut
Stefan,
As you can see, Rob has not built his motor yet! He is still making the end pieces to connect the magnet assembly to a shaft. His other measurements where do determine the ratings of the Hall IC and the relay.
PLEASE CALM DOWN or Build your own motor.
You say you are too busy to make a motor and dont have the parts yet you are soo eager to get every one else to do it for you. Generally if I really want to do something I MAKE TIME to do it. Why cant you?
D.
Hi all. Helmut, if you refer to Mikes original diagram, Just fit the reed in place of the SS relay shown in the diagram, and do not use a hall effect device. I think this is what Hartiberlin means. Personally, I would trigger this read by a small magnet fitted to a seperate wheel on the end of the shaft, rather than the main magnets. This way you can vary the timing. Also, could we all be nicer to Stefan, he is only doing his best to help us all.....
There is a basic question in all this which is keeping me awake at nights. I am not the worlds best when it comes to circuits, but I aint stupid either. Referring to Mikes original diagram, every body talks about the SS relay putting the motor coil in series with coil 3. I challenge anybody to explain the current path when this happens.
Suppose the motor coil puts out a pulse of current, as it must if it helps to charge the Capacitor. Its polarity is dependant on which main magnet pole is where ,at the instant the SS relay closes. The only output path from the lower end of the motor coil on the diagram is through the NPN transistor just below it . Current can flow through this transistor if it is switched on. The only problem is, the return path to the motor coil is via the diode near the Bridge rectifier, and this is not possible due to the diode being wrong way round.
If current tries to flow in the opposite direction, it is blocked by the NPN transistor, whether it is switched on or off.Is this what Mike meant when he said " taking into account the diode" ? Did I miss some thing here? Is this diode unique amongst diodes in that it will pass current in either direction? Cold it have been blown by overvoltage, and have become conductive in either direction? Dont just ignore this Inconvenient Truth, Post your oppinions please.............Neptune
Hello
During the Weekend i had made a start with my Motor.
I add some Pics to show you about the Setup.
The Chassis is made complet from Foam.
The Rod is made from Corbonfibre to keep every magnetic influence away.
The Rotor is from Fome as well
There are 4 Magnets only.Each lifts about 8.4 Kg.
At the Time , the Rotor can spin on the Rod,to keep Friction low.
If it works,it can be modified.
Quote from: neptune on February 25, 2007, 11:12:56 AM
Hi all. Helmut, if you refer to Mikes original diagram, Just fit the reed in place of the SS relay shown in the diagram, and do not use a hall effect device. I think this is what Hartiberlin means. Personally, I would trigger this read by a small magnet fitted to a seperate wheel on the end of the shaft, rather than the main magnets. This way you can vary the timing. Also, could we all be nicer to Stefan, he is only doing his best to help us all.....
Hi Neptune
You are absolutely right!
And i hope that Stefan has got a big Skin.
I think,that the hole Story is more exciting than a thriller in TV.
Hi Stefan,
you suggest to try to connenct L2 and L3 by hand triggered switch. You must be kidding!
The motor runs at about 3 rotations per seconds, 3 pair of magnets makes it 9 trigger moments per second. The switch has to be closed at the right time this is impossible to be done by hand. It could work but it rather won't.
PK
Quote from: fesearcher on February 25, 2007, 03:13:14 PM
Hi Stefan,
you suggest to try to connenct L2 and L3 by hand triggered switch. You must be kidding!
I think the excitement has gotten to him, hes lost it!
D.
QuoteThere is a basic question in all this which is keeping me awake at nights. I am not the worlds best when it comes to circuits, but I aint stupid either. Referring to Mikes original diagram, every body talks about the SS relay putting the motor coil in series with coil 3. I challenge anybody to explain the current path when this happens.
Suppose the motor coil puts out a pulse of current, as it must if it helps to charge the Capacitor. Its polarity is dependant on which main magnet pole is where ,at the instant the SS relay closes. The only output path from the lower end of the motor coil on the diagram is through the NPN transistor just below it . Current can flow through this transistor if it is switched on. The only problem is, the return path to the motor coil is via the diode near the Bridge rectifier, and this is not possible due to the diode being wrong way round.
If current tries to flow in the opposite direction, it is blocked by the NPN transistor, whether it is switched on or off.Is this what Mike meant when he said " taking into account the diode" ? Did I miss some thing here? Is this diode unique amongst diodes in that it will pass current in either direction? Cold it have been blown by overvoltage, and have become conductive in either direction? Dont just ignore this Inconvenient Truth, Post your oppinions please.............Neptune
I too have just noticed this. There is no path for current through the SS relay and third coil. The third coil is neither connected in parallel or series with the main coil!
Mike only drew the circuit out when we asked for it, he then traced the wires back. He did not have a diagram before hand, so in his rush it could be he just drew it back to front, there is no way to know now.
Dave.
Quote from: fesearcher on February 25, 2007, 03:13:14 PM
Hi Stefan,
you suggest to try to connenct L2 and L3 by hand triggered switch. You must be kidding!
The motor runs at about 3 rotations per seconds, 3 pair of magnets makes it 9 trigger moments per second. The switch has to be closed at the right time this is impossible to be done by hand. It could work but it rather won't.
PK
Hi,
FESearcher,
just connect to the shaft a bigger flywheel, e.g. a iron disc or
some other heavy weight parts, so it has a big mass.
Then just turn the shaft only at around 1 revolutions/sec and then you can tap the switch
easily 3 times/sec or more or less and see, if the cap voltage will rise or fall
and if the rev/sec will change !
That should be easy to do for you.
Regards, Stefan.
Just to confirm the diode is the right way round in the diagram!
Dave.
Hi all,
I have done some tests using solid state switching in a circuit modification as Mike has shown. I have not replicated his modification because I don't have the parts he used.
I have substituted his parts with parts or circuit configurations that do the same thing. I know this is not the way to this but with certain results I have so far I thought it might benefit others in exploring Mike's modification until all of us have his same parts and setup if that's possible.
I have used a small pick up coil that turns on a transistor instead of a hall switch. I have used this on it's own to replace both the hall switch and SS relay as well as used this to trigger an AC SS relay.
Connected to the circuit with a diode as Mike has shown, it does not self run. It does not produce a large negative pulse as in Mike's scope shot. But the motor will run normally with a battery power source.
Now here is what is interesting. If I place a small battery in series with the SS relay and diode such that the battery's positive is connected to the diode (obviously), then the motor will run without any other power source.
The motor does of course draw power from the small added battery that can be anything from a few volts. But the power is only a few milliamps.
So what I would like to point out here, is that with Mike's modification, I believe I have shown experimentally that if his SS relay were acting as an active device and not just a passive device, which is what it is, then I have clearly proved that the motor WILL self run as per his modification.
One more important thing to note. Even with the added small battery in series with the SS relay and diode, I still do not get such a large negative pulse like Mike shows in his scope trace. I do get an increase in size of this same pulse but not large like his. It seems that possibly the active component within his SS relay is adding considerable energy to produce such a large pulse he has shown...
Regards,
Ossie
QuoteEMdevices wrote:
I'm glad to see we are comming around and looking closer at what Mike has done.
To help in this effort I've composed the following diagram.
It is no mystery what Mike has done. By the way Stephan, these Scope shots are NOT INVERTED. Mike told us specificaly how he measured them, like I labled on the circuit (notice the ground symbol)
Notice, the swing happens because the diode BLOCKS. This is not the CHARGING phase, else the voltage would stay at this level..
Also note, that his Hall Sensor operates everyother cycle. He could improve his motor by getting another Hall sensor.
Hi EM,
well done.
As user Neptune on my forum told us,
that there is no current path at all from L2 ( which has a higher voltage)
to L3 or the other way around with Mike?s
circuit, the only thing, what the SS-Relay will do, is
SHORT-OUT the L3 coil !
This will probably give a big induction pulse into L1 and L2,
so that the Transistors are conducting and L2 will get this big kick induction voltage then.
This the the cause of big voltage spike we see.
That is also why it was hard to see, as it does not appear
directly but only via back-induction to L2 !
Hope this helps now to better understand the motor principle !
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: Compare again with my earlier posted compensation circuit diagram. There you can see, that the only
conduction path, when SS-Relay is switching on,
is the shortout of L3 via the 2 diodes, the one at the SS-Relay and the lower left diode.
Maybe it would even work better, when L3 is directly shorted out ?
P.P.S: The compensation diagram is drawn at the time, when the transistors are conducting, so the
L2 main coil is directly connected to the cap !
Hi again. In post no 327 above, Callanan describes an expriment with a small added battery, which blows my theory out of the water. [My theory that there is no output path for the motor coil to act as a generator, see above] . However, with this small battery[and no other ] in cicuit it should be easy to trace the current path. Put a milliamp meter in series with said battery, and disconnect various wires in turn, untill the current stops. Yes I know I am finding work for others, but it will help to solve this Puzzle. This might just be the most significant test in determining the role of the SS relay. Wishing massive overunity to all, Neptune.
I have also got my motor running, albeit slowly on two 1.2v rechargable batteries. I left it running overnight and to my surprise this morning (after 9 hours) it was still going at the same sort of speed. The battery voltage was fluctuating but still around 2.4 volts. I didn,t have time for more testing as I had to go to work, but am looking forward to see if it's still running when I get home this evening. I don't have a relay setup, just a homemade magnetic switch activated by two small opposed magnets on the flywheel.
SPP-48
Hi,
I think Mike didn't use the Transistors MPS8599 or MPS8099, because they are only available in a TO-92 case.
When you have a look on Mike's pictures you will see Transistors with a different case TO-220.
So it is possible that Mike uses different Transistors. For example MOSFET?s with an internal "SOURCE DRAIN DIODE".
This internal "SOURCE DRAIN DIODE" (it protects the device against reverse voltage) can give Mike's Circuit an other function.
shadow
this 2 transistors are very simple pnp npn transistors
TO-18 Versin is 2N2221 2N2907
TO 5 TO39 is 2N2219 2N2905
Pese
(40 years : PESE SEMICONDUCTORS)
since 5 years obsolete.
(http://095419.pdf)
I believe this is what the compensation circuit should look like to be like Mike's diagram.
I downloaded an image but I don't know how to reference it!
095419.pdf is the image name
(http://compckt.jpg)
There we go.
I think Stefan's drawing is incorrect and should be like this diagram.
It should be clear that "3rd coil" is always "generating" into the cap through the bridge. The diode prevents current from coil 3 from going through the ssr path. Of course it only charges the cap if the winding voltage is above the cap voltage at the time!
The ssr switches coil 2 through the diode and the bridge.
It is important to analyze the effect of the transistor that is at point "A" in the actual circuit.
Sorry for the poor scan. I must have some dead pixels in my scanner.
(http://compckt-plus)
This is what coil 3 will do (conventional current flow, not electron flow - I'm old school) when the coil is positive to the top.
(http://compckt-minus.jpg)
This is what coil 3 will do when the top is negative (again, conventional current flow shown)
(http://compckt-coil2.jpg)
This is what the ssr will try to do.
There are some questions in my mind on whether this can work, for several reasons:
1) if coil 3 is plus while coil 2 is plus (both dot terminals to the top, for example), coil 2 would have to be a higher potential than coil 3 to forward bias the diode, or it will go nowhere.
2) at point "A", there is a transistor. What the ssr will do depends upon what state the transistor is in, and some of the polarities, etc.
It is possible that coil 3 has the dot terminal at the bottom. This would allow coil 2 to work because the top of the bridge would be negative due to coil 3.
The transistor at point A is what I have trouble figuring out. If it is conducting, it would allow current flow in the wrong direction to charge the cap. If it is not conducting there could be a large impedance there that would cause a voltage drop there that causes coil 2 to be floating with reference to ground.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Hi Dingbat,
your circuit is not correct. Because of the diodes, L2 will never get powered by the cap. Actually in your circuit no coil will be powered at all, so the motor cannot run. The coils only serve as generators! However, if you bridge the extra diode and the one of the rectifier bridge by using the SS relay maybe this will do.
PK
I understand this circuit "in otger way"
L2 is an Pic up coil that take en energie(from L1 possibly)
so L2 can give up energie over the diodes to the cap .
even if L2 "spend" positive or negative pulses , the will find
the right polarity to load the condensor.
(think about to use fast switching diodes ! NO 1N400x 1N540X )
Pese
This circuit will work ,but i cant say , over Overunity.
Hi All,
I am hesitant to post this information for fear of being killed as the messenger but here goes : ::) I posted this in the gn0sis forum and no response so I added more information here.
There has been a lot of speculation of what Mike used for the SSR and how it was hooked up. Mike showed us still pictures that show one type of SSR while the actual video shows another type. :-[ The one in the video shows connectors in center of the SSR. I reviewed what Mike has written in the gn0sis thread I noticed he mentioned bgmicro as the place he got his capacitor. Based on this I did a search of BGmicro and look what I found.
http://www.bgmicro.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=10905
A dual SSR. Now this looks a lot like what he used in his running video motor and would make sense if he was ordering items from the same supplier. You guys maybe jumping up about about now and saying that must be it.. :o That must be the part. Hold on a second... Now go view the FULL length video that Rich of gn0sis posted of Mikes motor running. The newly added second half of the video is the important part. Watch very carefully as he pans closer to the motor while it is running. Freeze the video while it is showing the SSR. (there are a couple of stills posted in this thread as well) Look very carefully at the wires. The trigger wires go to the center pins. Look closely... Yep it looks like those wires goe to two right pins so that would be ground and B. Okay looks good.. so what of it,you think. Now look very closely and carefully at the wires going to the SSR output spade connectors. Look at the mounting holes of the SSR. Now look at those spade wire output again. Now look at the diagram faceplate of the standard dual SSR BGmicro link I posted above.. Now figure out what is wrong with this pictures.... :( Where are those output wires hooked up too... So what does the SSR do ???
The Answer... For those that do not want to take the time to check it out it is this. A dual SSR has a output on each end so we have output A at one end with spade connections and output B at the other end with spade connectors. Each end has labels 1 and 2. The input to trigger either one is from the four input pins in the middle of the SSR. So Mike has one wire hooked to spade pin 2 of SSR-A and pin 3 of SSR-B. Mike is triggering SRA-B. There are no connections between SRR-A pin 1 and SSR-B pin 2. So in the 'proof' video what is the SSR doing in this configuration.. Nothing.. >:(
I have a question for the builders of the window motor.
Has anyone taken a meter reading on how much power it takes to actually run the window motor itself? (How much power do the generating coils need to produce to run the motor?)
QuoteHi Dingbat,
your circuit is not correct. Because of the diodes, L2 will never get powered by the cap. Actually in your circuit no coil will be powered at all, so the motor cannot run. The coils only serve as generators! However, if you bridge the extra diode and the one of the rectifier bridge by using the SS relay maybe this will do.
PK
This is not a complete circuit, just the feedback portion of the system - see harti's earlier posts. This is just a simplified representation of the feedback portion of the system.
The motor gets powered by the cap shown, through transistors that are not shown. This diagram does not show the trigger coil either. You must look at the complete circuit for the rest of the details.
Sorry for the confusion.
@spp-48
hello spp, I,m glad you got a self runner too.
It seems nobody cares if someone else got another motor runing on it own
they are too busy trying to figure out how the first one works. but that's ok
it is part of the game right? :)
can you tell us if your motor was still running after you got home?
and can you also post a short video or at least pics?
and 1 last thing, can you describe what parts and config you used?
thanks in advance.
@slncspkr,
I also saw the posting of @SPP-48 and am waiting for his report after he comes back from work. It?s not that no one pays attention but everyone is so burnt out already that something like this sounding too good to be true must be substantiated a little more. No one needs another @Mike wetting everybody?s appetite and disappearing just when the dessert was to come.
Is it me or does anyone else notice that the gn0sis forum went from doing a Mike self running replication to a John Bedini battery running replication.. What ever happen to the self runner proof with NO BATTERY... guess it was not important...
@hydrocontrol,
This business with @Mike seems suspicious from the get-go. One cannot but notice how he was manipulating the enthusiasts only to disappear suddenly. What?s behind this is anyone?s guess. Boost the enthusiasm with far our claims to revamp something in which the community has virtually lost interest? I hate to see good people treated like this.
Hope to be proven wrong. Like I said, I?m waiting for @SPP-48 to report his findings.
Nice work guys :)
When I was searching web about the free energy devices i found this video on youtube.
Maybe it will help us to better understending the word of "field energy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yID01RjBzDE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM_s0dXRk48
I am also apologizing because of "offtopic"
;)
QuoteIs it me or does anyone else notice that the gn0sis forum went from doing a Mike self running replication to a John Bedini battery running replication.. What ever happen to the self runner proof with NO BATTERY... guess it was not important...
It's pretty easy to see what direction things are going there. I'm hearing a familiar sounding tune.
I'll leave it at that for now.
@Dingbat,
I had drawn today the same "compensation" circuit as you.
When we say, that the upper PNP is not conducting,
you are totally right.
About Point A you must know, that Mike did not use
the transistors he posted.
These just don?t exit in these cases...
There is no MPS8599 and MPS8099 in TO-220 !
Shadow wrote to me:
shadow
? Sent to: hartiberlin on: February 26, 2007, 07:40:35 PM ?
Hallo Stefan,
ich wei? nicht ob es schon diskutiert worden ist. Aber meiner Meinung nach verwendet Mike nicht die Transistoren MPS8599 und MPS8099 in seiner Schaltung. Auf dieser Seite http://www.gn0sis.com/component/option,com_joomlaboard/Itemid,33/func,view/id,2236/catid,41/limit,20/limitstart,60/
gibt Mike den Lieferanten f?r die oben genannten Transistoren an. Dort gibt es die Transistoren aber nur im TO-92 Geh?use. Auf seinen Bildern im Forum ist aber ganz andere Bauform zu sehen!!! Habe mir dann noch mal hier: http://www.alldatasheet.com/view.jsp?Searchword=MPS8099 mehrere Datenbl?tter zu diesen Transistoren angeschaut. Alle Datenbl?tter zeigen die Transistoren ausschlie?lich im TO-92 Geh?use!!! Das heisst, Mike muss hier andere Transistoren oder MOSFET?s verwendet haben. Eventuell solche mit einer Schutzdiode zwischen Emitter und Kollektor oder Drain und Source. Diese Schutzdiode w?rde in Zusammenhang mit L2 und L3 der Schaltung einen anderen Sinn geben...
Viele Gr??e
shadow
shadow
? Sent to: hartiberlin on: February 27, 2007, 07:58:14 PM ?
? You have forwarded or responded to this message. ?
Reply with quoteQuote ReplyReply Remove this messageRemove
Hallo Stefan,
habe gerade pese diese Nachricht geschickt, was denkst du dar?ber?
Hallo,
mir geht?s eigendlich um diesen fehlenden Strompfad der Spule L2 bei offenen Transistoren. MOSFET?s mit dieser internen Schutzdiode k?nnten diesen Strompfad schlie?en! Deshalb interessiere ich mich so f?r diese Transistoren die Mike verwendet.
Diese MPS8099 und MPS8599 hat er meiner Meinung nach nicht verwendet, weil es die meiner Meinung nach nur im TO-92 Geh?use gibt. Auf den Bilder ist aber eine die Bauform TO-220 zu sehen.
Es k?nnte doch also sein, dass seine verwendeten Transistoren (Typ unbekannt) diese Schutzdiode enthalten und den Strompfad schlie?en? Vielleicht ist das ein wichtiges Puzzelst?ck!
shadow
================================
So the lower NPN has probably a "Snubber" safety diode in it, so the path A
is condcuting in your compensation diagram...
Hmm, is the upper PNP also conducting due to this Snubber safety diode ?
Or doesn?t it have one ??
This is the big question... now...
Last time I checked my motor had been running continuously for 36 hours with the same 2 x 1.2v rechargeable batteries. When I measured the voltage last night it was 2.45v and this morning was 2.42v. They were 2.46v when they started.
I stopped it for a little while last night and tried some different capacitor configurations, as I don't have a BC 47000uF. I am using 2x10000uF 65v in series which are the biggest I have. I then reconnected the same batteries and left it running overnight and was still going this morning.
Now that I know that the motor works with only a low voltage I feel more encouraged to invest in the Hall, SSR and 47000uF capacitor.
Will keep the forum posted.
SPP-48
Tried to post this earlier but didn't go through.
H:\SPP-48_motor.AVI
@SPP-48
I am impressed!
This ist,what the forum makes to output more Brainwork.
As you discribe your Generator,led me think,dhat ,if the Caps are bigger,that the Batterys are no more needet.
Perhaps you can put a Starter Cap between the two others.
Helmut
ps. does have anybody have experience with a Oszilloskop Box ,that works via PC?
Is it a good deal or should i look after a normal one?
Hi!
I asked myself if I also should congratulate if someone can run his motor with a battery. This fact may be amazing. However, I have lots of motors that run on battery!
PK
Quote from: fesearcher on February 28, 2007, 05:17:58 AM
Hi!
I asked myself if I also should congratulate if someone can run his motor with a battery. This fact may be amazing. However, I have lots of motors that run on battery!
PK
Hi Fesearcher
I sounds,that you are not so much amused at the Moment.
LOL
Helmut
@fesearcher,
Since you have lots of motors that run on batteries you may have noticed that batteries discharge in time while running the motors. Won?t it be amazing if there?s a motor whose battery always stays charged while powering it?
Quote from: SPP-48 on February 28, 2007, 02:01:25 AM
I stopped it for a little while last night and tried some different capacitor configurations, as I don't have a BC 47000uF. I am using 2x10000uF 65v in series which are the biggest I have.
SPP-48
SPP-48, have you connected 2 serial 10.000uF capasitor? so total capasitor 5000uF,
You must be connect parallel for 20.000uF.
SPP,
gezin is correct - if you are going for a higher capacitance value, you must connect them in parallel. Your series connection yields 5000 uf at 130v.
Where did you get your long magnets?
Dingbat
QuoteSo the lower NPN has probably a "Snubber" safety diode in it, so the path A
is condcuting in your compensation diagram...
Hmm, is the upper PNP also conducting due to this Snubber safety diode ?
Or doesnÃ,´t it have one ??
This is the big question... now...
Stefan,
I can't read your german posts, but it sounds like your friend thinks the npn transistor may have an internal diode. My solution to the problem was going to be to add a diode around the transistor externally if it proves to be a problem.
I am having trouble deciding what the circuit will do if there is no diode there. We need the coil to kick into the capacitor, which will "collect" the electrons, so I'm not sure that current needs to flow through point "A" or not.
If you study the "critical" scope shot from Mike, consider that the scope ground probe is connected below the transistor. I believe that the scope ground is floating until the npn transistor is switched on. I think that this is why the scope trace is floating around, and why it dips toward the right side when the ssr is on. I think the dip is because the scope is properly grounded at that point, and the hump is indeed the main winding coming up to it's peak.
In short, I don't think there is a "dip" or "negative spike" in that scope shot. I think it is the scope becoming grounded when the npn transistor is on.
When the npn is on and the ssr is on (at the same time), the scope is effectively connected right across the main winding. I think the sinusoidal looking portion of the trace is the main winding positive peak. The downward shift of the wave is due to the grounding of the scope lead when the npn conducts.
That is what I think about "the negative spike".
Someone also argued on gn0sis that the spikes should be negative when the coil discharges. This is also false in my opinion. If you charge a solenoid with +24v, for example, when you suddenly disconnect the solenoid, it will produce a large POSITIVE (Correction - NEGATIVE, as z_p_e correctly points out below) spike as the magnetic field suddenly collapses. The voltage depends upon the solenoid parameters and how fast the discharge occurs. The faster the discharge, the higher the voltage. This is why a "freewheel" diode is commonly placed around a solenoid - to dissipate the arc produced when the solenoid is turned off.
Therefore, when the main winding transistors switch off, we should expect a large (NEGATIVE - corrected) spike to come from the main winding - (which is actually the wrong polarity to feed back to the cap.)
Have you looked at the scope shots being produced by the Bedini replication going on right now? Do you know where the scope leads are in those scope shots? They show 3 spikes and a hump for each cycle. Without knowing where the leads are, I don't know how to interpret them.
Dingbat,
The spike WILL be in the negative direction. The freewheeling diode does not conduct when your +24V is applied right?
Then the diode conducts when the inductor de-energizes, but in the opposite direction. This is basic electronics/ electrical theory. So relative to gnd and the +'ve supply, the inductor voltage IS inverted.
I don't understand why there is so much confusion about this easy, and well-known concept.
Mike's scope shots are inverted, as verified by my work (I'll post scope shots if anyone is interested), and fesearcher's scope shots.
Darren
@gezgin, dingbat
Thanks for the advice on the caps. I will try them in parallel.
The long magnets are from a local supplier www.lodestoneindustries.com.au
I have just checked the motor. It has now been running for 48 hours and the batteries still read 2.43v. I have noticed that it reads slightly higher at night. Perhaps it is affected by cooler temperature.
SPP-48
QuoteDingbat,
The spike WILL be in the negative direction. The freewheeling diode does not conduct when your +24V is applied right?
z_p_e,
Sorry for the confusion, and thank you for the correction. You are correct of course. I'm spending too much time thinking about this and confusing myself (as well as others, now).
Do you know where the scope readings are being taken on John's replication?
(http://overunityscope.jpg)
Scope image I am referring to.
QuoteI have just checked the motor. It has now been running for 48 hours and the batteries still read 2.43v. I have noticed that it reads slightly higher at night. Perhaps it is affected by cooler temperature.
That might be possible. I have a digital electronic bathroom scale that is drastically affected by temperature. It will change by several pounds with a few degree change. I can lose about 5 lbs instantly by putting the scale on the heat register for about 5 minutes and weighing myself again!
Dingbat,
Yes, that scope shot of John's is taken across the main or Drive coil ("motor coil" as John calls it). It is inverted.
Darren
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 27, 2007, 04:57:09 PM
Is it me or does anyone else notice that the gn0sis forum went from doing a Mike self running replication to a John Bedini battery running replication.. What ever happen to the self runner proof with NO BATTERY... guess it was not important...
I just figured there was a battery hidden somewhere in his mess of connections in the video(Hopefully I get proven wrong!).
So we have a battery operated motor that is extremely efficient, the trade-off being that little work can be generated from it while maintaining this efficiency?
I might as well build my own motor. It will use a ton of electricity. But it will also do a ton of work in very little time ;)
Hi Omnibus,
indeed to run a motor on battery that does not run down is something special. But when the original motor from Mike is said to be run on a single cap, then any replication should do the same to be called overunity motor. My motor can run on a cap for couple of minutes it will run over night on a battery by not discharging it to much. However to check if a design is overunity, the power source should be very small to make exact statements. Keep also in mind that there are uncertainties in measurement!
PK
P.S.: I have read and experienced so much in the past, I'm just very carefully in doing any statement and because of my profession I know how importand it is to accurate make research to make it believable and reproducible.
fesearcher,
Well, I can say it's good to have you aboard. Your approach is to be commended.
A question: Why did you wind your Generator coil the same no. of windings as the Drive coil? From Mike's scope shots, it appears that the Drive coil has twice the number of turns as the Trigger and Generator coils.
Regards,
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on February 28, 2007, 08:45:23 AM
I don't understand why there is so much confusion about this easy, and well-known concept.
Mike's scope shots are inverted, as verified by my work (I'll post scope shots if anyone is interested), and fesearcher's scope shots.
Darren
Hi Darren,
yes, please post scopeshots of your work together with a circuit diagram, so one can see,
where you did exactly measure them.
The others, who have posted scopeshots unfortunately never draw a circuit diagram with it,
so one never knows exactly, where they take these scopeshots.
This is where all the confusion comes from
Scopeshots WITHOUT circuit diagrams are WORTHLESS,
because only the experimentator knows, where he is measuring it !
Documentation is so important in our area of research !
Many thanks in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
QuoteScopeshots WITHOUT circuit diagrams are WORTHLESS,
because only the experimentator knows, where he is measuring it !
I agree very much with that remark.
QuoteDingbat,
Yes, that scope shot of John's is taken across the main or Drive coil ("motor coil" as John calls it). It is inverted.
Darren
Darren,
Can you describe each portion of the waveform and interpret what is going on to generate it?
Specifically there are 3 basic areas of the wave - the flat portion, the spikes, and the hump. The Bedini guys somewhere described the 3 spikes as when the trigger is firing, I think. I presume they mean the trigger coil is pulsing the transistors 3 times (sometimes twice). Right after the last pulse we get the hump.
Can you explain how you would interpret the waveform on the main coil?
I'm specifically trying to figure out the hump and the flat clipped looking areas. It is curious how the hump cuts off suddenly at the trailing edge.
Thanks,
Dingbat
Here is some news fromPeter Lindeman, who has visited
John Bedini:
2007/02/28 04:05
Corona and All,
I was at John?s shop today and this is what I saw. I arrived at about 10:30am. John?s motor was running on the bench. It was connected to a capacitor in parallel with an 18AH Garden Battery. This composite supply was being monitored by a digital bench meter (plug-in type) and read 12.66 volts. I brought my photo-tachometer to the shop, so I measured the speed of the motor. The first reading was 354.1 RPM at about 11:00am.
By this time, the meter started flashing 12.67 volts, once every minute or so, while holding steady at 12.66 volts most of the time. The oscilloscope was showing a steady wave-form with three high voltage spikes superimposed on the sine-wave. This is indicative of the motor ?triple-triggering? and sending three radiant spikes back to the battery/capacitor supply to recharge it.
We went to lunch and got back around 1:00pm.
By this time, the meter was reading a steady 12.67 volts and the speed had increased to 358 RPM. Rick took his film about this time, posted to this forum earlier. By 3:30pm, the speed topped out at 361.1 RPM. Shortly after this, I noticed that the oscilloscope was showing only two high voltage spikes in the wave-form, indicative of the motor ?double-triggering? and sending only two radiant spikes back to the battery/capacitor supply to recharge it. By 4:30pm the meter was reading 12.66 Volts again and the speed had dropped to 356.3 RPM.
At this point, John slowed the motor down a little more by pressing a little on the turning shaft. The scope immediately showed that as the motor slowed down, it started triple-triggering again, which in turn made the motor speed up and charge the battery/capacitor to a higher voltage. After a few more quick tests like this, it was pretty obvious that the motor was operating at the peak of its operational ?bell curve?. From this point, it was self-regulating between 354 RPM and about 361 RPM with a charge on the battery/capacitor supply between 12.66 volts and 12.67 volts. I left the shop at about 5:00pm.
The motor had run in this window all day, making up all of its losses and maintaining its speed and charge. The losses include the voltage drops through all of the transistors and diodes, which are a voltage loss against the power supply for both motor drive and generator recovery. Other losses include bearing friction and wind resistance. So, clearly, the unit is operating UNDER-UNITY, but the over-all COP is just above 1.
John plans to run the motor all night, so if the meter reads above 12.65 volts tomorrow morning, I?d say the system is stable.
As for the circuit, Corona, NO, John is not using the hall-SCR combination in this set-up. His ?feedback loop? uses only one more resistor and one more NPN transistor and creates a feedback in a slightly different location than Mike?s circuit. John always does his own experiments and solves for his own solution. So, he found a SECOND window where it works different than Mike?s. But John?s motor ran ALL DAY and didn?t take anything from the supply source.
Tomorrow should be interesting.
Peter
I don?t know, if this was posted yet,
but User MeggerMan wrote:
2007/02/26 22:52
The relay that Mike first used is/was possibly a dual output relay.
I have scoured the internet for a few hours and the nearest thing I can find is this:
http://www.celduc-relais.com/all/pdfcelduc/SCB345100.pdf
4-30V DC control
2 x 50A, 12V to 280V AC
So this explains the two spade connectors with no connections, these would be the "B" outputs and he needed to only use the "A" outputs.
==============
My comment.
Yes, it looks like this could have been used.
But from the PDF it seems that the 4 control pins of this double
channel SS-Relay are nearer to the one side of the outputs,
but in the pic from Mike?s video, these 4 pins seems to be
just in the center of the relay...
Hmm, also the relay seems to work only
from output voltage from 12 to 280 Volts,
but Mike?s motor is already accelerated from 0 Volts on
his cap !
Also the input only works, if the input to the relay is higher than 4 Volts,
but Mike?s cap is starting at 0 Volts and the rotor already accelerates !?
Also , how is the Relay switched off ?
The voltage at the SCR?s of the Relay must go under
a certain threshold level, so the Relay is at all
switched off again.
Does this apply when the pulse falls again ?
Regards, Stefan.
Quote from: xpenzif on February 28, 2007, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: hydrocontrol on February 27, 2007, 04:57:09 PM
Is it me or does anyone else notice that the gn0sis forum went from doing a Mike self running replication to a John Bedini battery running replication.. What ever happen to the self runner proof with NO BATTERY... guess it was not important...
I just figured there was a battery hidden somewhere in his mess of connections in the video(Hopefully I get proven wrong!).
So we have a battery operated motor that is extremely efficient, the trade-off being that little work can be generated from it while maintaining this efficiency?
I might as well build my own motor. It will use a ton of electricity. But it will also do a ton of work in very little time ;)
@xpenzif
Everyone who build up his own Motor,does one step forward.
Today i want to make some change on the Coils , but something went wrong.
Now i have konvertet the coils in to a Wig.That was a step back.
Tomorrow i start from the beginning.I still want have such a mashine.
I am shure we are on the right way .
Helmut
I have watched again the full video, but I
must say, the control pins for the double channel
SS-Relay, where only one channel is used seem
to be exactly in the center of the 4 output pins.
So I guess Mike still used a different SS-relay than this one:
All,
I added at the first posting of this thread now the Full version
of the Mike motor, as Mike posted 2 parts and the second part
was broken.Rich got the 2nd file part and fixed it and
put together now the full movie.
Many thanks to Rich for providing the full version.
In the full version you can see the SS-relay much better and the additional
sync wheel, where only 1 magnet is fixed to and triggers the SS_Relay only once
per 360 degrees rotation.
Regards, Stefan.
In a private discussion with user Gustav Pese and user shadow,
we came to the conclusion, that
Mike did not use these small MPSxxxx transistors.
But as Mike labeled his parts on one picture as
PNP and NPN he would not have done this,
if he had used N-MOSFETs
and P-MOSFETs or something simular.
So as he used TO220 case NPN and PNP
transistors, which TO220 NPN transistor has
such a freewheel safety diode integrated ?
I almost think his PNP transistor did NOT have this
freewheel safety diode integrated, so the current from
L2 can only flow to the SS-relay and not to
the cap, when the SS-Relay is switched on.
Gruss, Stefan.
mike motor work without any battery? the motor can run using one capacitor?
Hmm,
today John Bedini thinks the Mike motor modification is
a fraud.
Look at this, what the Bedini lab guys just posted:
Here is the Myth BUSTED:
http://www.rpmgt.org/TheMikeDuplication.wmv
I must say that I was mistaken. I thought it was not a battery at
first. But in the end after John played with all possibilities I did
suggest to try a 9v battery, while Peter mentioned we need to put a
resistor across it to slow down the affect. After trying a few
resistors we got the desired results as you see in the video.
Rick
ah :(, it's that i was thinking... when you see the video the voltage increase a little bit, when he discharge the capacitor, it's not a normal phenomenal :)
at least bedini confirm the hoax!
Well, I don't know if I'm ready to completely throw in the towel on Mike's mod, but if he did indeed cheat by using a battery, would the relay he used be large enough to hide a 9V battery in? I doubt it. If he did use a battery or batteries, they must have been quite small in size.
I have to admit, that after viewing the two scope shots showing with and without the Hall working, I could not understand haw Mike could be getting a positive spike (you have to invert the scope shot remember) when the L2 coil would clearly recoil in the opposite direction, or in other words, a negative spike.
When I did quickly try triggering the switch function performed by the ssr, I noticed only that the already exisiting NEGATIVE spike at that instant became larger. Mike's scope shot clearly shows a positive spike "riding" on top of the negative spike.
So, did he cheat? I for one am not certain yet, but I will try this battery trick to see if I can achieve the same scope shot Mike posted.
Regards,
Darren
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest Mike's fraudulant armpits!
I have many other choice words to say, but I don't want to seem angry and mean.
There are really quite a few mentally sick people in this world.
Thank you Myth-buster-type dudes! Sorry you had to go through all that trouble.
What is important is not that Mike?s motor was or was not a hoax, but that it inspired people to do something.
This stuff can?t be worked out scientifically. It has to happen by accident. And you have to try a lot of different things, some of them stupid, to enable the right accidents to happen.
My motor is still running on the original 2.4v battery after 60 hours. It is also activating a home-made magnetic switch twice in each revolution which means it is doing some work in addition to overcoming the bearing and air friction.
I am now looking at ways of getting the motor to produce the magic ?Tesla kick? that will allow me to remove the battery. I'm not claiming that it will happen, but if it hadn't been for Mike's video I would not have contemplated this project.
SPP-48
Get your motor runnin' .... Head out on the highway....
Lookin' for adventure ....In whatever comes our way....
so who has a battery-charging replication of the bedini/cole window energizer? it would at least be useful to document those (videos+circuit) so that people who want to charge their batteries using this method, can, and will find the pertinent information.
right?
@esaruoho,
If the only goal is to use this method to charge a battery then this is of no interest whatsoever. What is claimed is that a motor driven by a battery turns without discharging the battery. If that?s the case then it is an overunity motor which is a big deal. This is what SPP-48 has to demonstrate. Unfortunately, it is not clear what exactly happened to his battery after 60h of running. At the beginning he reported the voltage to be 2.46V, which is ~ 2.5V. After 60h he reports it as 2.4V. Let?s see what will happen after the motor runs for another 60h.
Please SPP-48, can you give us exact list of components you have used? and schematics? Your motor looks like a model we could start improving.
Thank you :)
Quote from: Omnibus on March 01, 2007, 12:52:41 AM
@esaruoho,
If the only goal is to use this method to charge a battery then this is of no interest whatsoever. What is claimed is that a motor driven by a battery turns without discharging the battery. If that?s the case then it is an overunity motor which is a big deal. This is what SPP-48 has to demonstrate. Unfortunately, it is not clear what exactly happened to his battery after 60h of running. At the beginning he reported the voltage to be 2.46V, which is ~ 2.5V. After 60h he reports it as 2.4V. Let?s see what will happen after the motor runs for another 60h.
well, what i meant was, if anyone has built a bedini/cole motor replication, that runs on batterise without discharging the batteries, WHILST charging batteries - and running continuously, thats what i meant by the first mail..
SPP-48
If you are using a non rechargeable battery you could notice a gradual voltage drop on the battery even if your motor was overunity due to the uneven current return of the motor during each cycle.
I suggest precharging a large capacitor ( >1000uF) to your battery voltage and place it in parallel with your battery (Observing polarity of course) The motor can stay running while you do this (and will if done correctly). With the capacitor connected you can then disconnect the battery, leaving only the capacitor to act as the battery. If the motor is under unity, the capacitor will only keep it going for a few seconds or minutes instead of weeks or months like a battery could. After all, the electric motor in a battery powered clock can run for many months even with all its energy robbing gears!
I suggest using a 1 Farad capacitor: available in most car stereo shops.
DerrickA
DerrickA, That sounds like a very good idea.
Acidbreaker is right !
Please spp-48, post on this forum the complete set of details of your actual system, such that we can try it too (schematics, dimensions, type of magnets etc.).
This will be very helpful for the comunity, in order to achive the goal of an acceptable number replications.
Many thanks in advance spp-48 !
The Show must go on !
Quote from: z_p_e on February 28, 2007, 09:16:47 PM
Well, I don't know if I'm ready to completely throw in the towel on Mike's mod, but if he did indeed cheat by using a battery, would the relay he used be large enough to hide a 9V battery in? I doubt it. If he did use a battery or batteries, they must have been quite small in size.
I have to admit, that after viewing the two scope shots showing with and without the Hall working, I could not understand haw Mike could be getting a positive spike (you have to invert the scope shot remember) when the L2 coil would clearly recoil in the opposite direction, or in other words, a negative spike.
When I did quickly try triggering the switch function performed by the ssr, I noticed only that the already exisiting NEGATIVE spike at that instant became larger. Mike's scope shot clearly shows a positive spike "riding" on top of the negative spike.
So, did he cheat? I for one am not certain yet, but I will try this battery trick to see if I can achieve the same scope shot Mike posted.
Regards,
Darren
Hi Darren,
yes, please try to replicate this setup with the battery, so wereally know, that with the battery
we get the same scopeshot as Mike posted.
Hi John, Rick and Peter,
many thanks for the last video, where you show,
that it can be faked with the battery.
1. Maybe you can still tell us, where you took the scope shot at exactly and what the scope ground reference was.
2. Is the circuit you had before with the Step1 and step2 thing still valid ? Will it still charge the battery while letting it run on the battery ?
3. Rich,
please try calling this guy Mike and try to get him
to answer, if it was a fake.
Don?t stop calling him, until you reach him and he is
saying something.
4. John, what is your best battery charger now doing ?
Do you already sell them or are they still in
research and development ?
Will you soon release a circuit diagram of a battery charger that works flawlessly and can be rebuild by anyone
for his own private use ?
I know you have patents on your devices, but will you make
something public, which could be used just for private
use ?
Many thanks to all.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S: I will keep trying to recharge batteries myself with a modified Newman setup with going to use special spark gap materials to enhance the back currents into the batteries, so I will still use mechanical contacts.
User Shadow just emailed me the transistors,
that use these freewheel safety diodes internally with a T0-220 case.
These are mostly Darlington transistors.
Maybe Mike used some of these ?
Here are the datasheets:
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/22000/STMICROELECTRONICS/BDX53C.html
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/25364/STMICROELECTRONICS/TIP110.html
Regards, Stefan.
Hmm,
many thanks for the answer.
It seems Mike used the Relay to add a battery inside it and mixed it up himself !
Many thanks for calling Crouzet !
Best regards, Stefan.
acg schrieb:
> Stefan,
>
> I searched all over and finaly talked to Crouzet. There is no such relay that has 4 pins in the exact middle with an output on the LEFT or RIGHT side. Please see the "Joe" folder in the Bedini_window_energizer group for pics of my SSRs. This also is part of a message I posted in that group:
> --------
>
> "...Yes, the dual SSR in my photos folder is also a Crouzet. I believe
> it is very close to the model Mike used too."
>
> "I asked both people from Crouzet and Crydom if there has ever been a
> dual relay that existed with 4 horizontal input pins in the exact
> middle of the SSR (like Mikes) with the output tabs configured on the
> LEFT and RIGHT sides, the answer was NO. The ouputs are always on
> the top and bottom I was told. "
> ------------------
>
> I also talked with an electronic store owner for 30 years, and he never heard of a "mike configed ssr".
>
> It looks like Mike's SSR was not doing anything!
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe
Hi Techpeople,
maybe it looks like a fake, what Mike said. But don't give up. Overunity is possible and will be reality soon - i think. As i could learn watching all construction here and there, there always seems one thing to be evident:
Three grades of energy serving principles.
1st grade: Normal Motors, which use much more energy to run, as they do work.
2nd grade: Constructions, which run "almost" itself. Two principles are balance out, so that they run easy. NO usefull work could be done with it.
3rd grade: Three energy delivering principles work in harmony and delivering more energy, as they consume (always thru free energy effects, not an isolated perpetuum motion is possible).
This construction here, as proofen by more than one replications, seems to be a consturction of the 2nd grade - as many half baken ideas. For example SPPs version shows, to overcome the notorious "sticky point" suprisingly little energy is needed. This is a sign of having two energy serving principles running well together. Here maybe
1. magnetic force
2. A more vertically wider coil than horizontaly (magnetic stator, switched by electronics)
Capacitor only conserves energy from moving masses to get a smooth movement and overcome downs and ups somewhere - its not an energy serving thing.
In my opinion, for successfull perpetuum motion, always 3 independent factors have to play together = more than 2!
What i also want to say with that: When Mike's thing is not a real perpetuum motion, don't waste your time, choosing other electronic parts or adjusting values here and there. There must be added an other basic principle, otherwise it will never run itself. Save your time! Spend it on research, not only on producing demo after demo. This is also one thing, i learned.
I was wondering if you could easily "cheat" this system myself. I have built a replication of Mike's device, and his circuit diagram is wrong in places. Namely the relay subcircuit. No conduction path exists for this subcircuit!
I used a reed switch and a single timing magnet on a separate disc. And then connected a SS relay too. The relay control circuit drains the capacitor faster than motoring, and the switched waveforms (when you connect the 3rd coil right to make a conduction path) between reed switch vs SS relay are identical. So the relay is not required.
Now the speculations about a fake relay - am I the only one how can see what parallax or perspective distortion does to a side view or what? Those control pins on the new longer video are NOT in the center of the device they are closer to the camera left side of the relay, similar to the spec sheet that was posted recently.
BUT I will say you can "fake" the operation in the video, and get the same voltage traces Mike relayed. Well not entirely on the waveforms. And you cannot make a hidden battery power the rotor with Mike's circuit - you have to change some things to do that.
I did it by taking my reed switch, and connecting one lead to the hidden battery, and then after the switch go to the + terminal of the "generator" coil. Then the - terminal of the generator coil must go back to this extra battery directly. it cannot make a path through the bridge to the capacitor and back to the extra battery!
BUT you can leave the bridge in place on the generator coils - and have this subcircuit of the reed switch and hidden battery - and it will then start from zero volts on the cap, with a slight turn of the shaft, the rotor accelerates and voltage climbs steadily on the cap.
Mine only needed 3V to achieve 280 rpm with only 450 turns on the motor coil and only 300 turns on the "generator" coil. The transistors still trigger and produce the spikes and "corners" of the waveform. But the rotor is being driven by the extra battery.
HOWEVER - two things which I cannot duplicate, or hide are as follows in this "cheat test":
1. When Mike stops the rotor, the cap voltage stays constant. When he gives the rotor a small start twist - the cap voltage immediately rises from the point it stopped at. BUT with my cheat test - no matter what I do, the cap voltage falls rapidly for several dozen revolutions - because the transistors are still turning on from the trigger coil and this drains the capacitor - until enough speed is achieved to start recharging again. Bedini's test also has his cap voltage drop when first starting after leaving voltage on the cap. Mike's did not!
2. I can get the two pulses that the reed switch is not ON for of the coil voltages to look just like Mike's. BUT every coil will see a huge peak/plateau during the reed switch/cheat battery pulse! Mike's scope traces - some of them have 4 or 5 cycles visible and no such tell tale sign of additional battery pulse is in evidence!
Now point 1 above could be explained by Mike not connecting the base trigger lead so his transistors are not even turning on - only the relay/cheat battery are active.
Point 2 above could be explained by Mike spinning the rotor by hand without the cheat battery and with transistors active, and taking the photos or the screen.
So my arguments are not foolproof.
But in my explorations I did find some interesting anomalies and can almost get it to self run. My turns ratios are wrong - that is for sure based on testing. And you have to wire things a little differently than Mike's diagram shows.
Here's one thing I did without the cheat battery, and with these experimentally made modifications (because the only way to duplicate his waveforms was to change the wiring): I spun up the rotor to a known speed (verified with scope freq measurement between cursors on 3 cycles, and with an external laser tachometer). Then let it run down until the rotor stops. I recorded how long this took and what the capacitor voltage fell to.
I did this with the active feedback of the switch circuit engaged vs without this active feedback. (making a parallel connection between motor and generator windings so motor coil "powers" the generator coil to make a motor force, while gated by the transitor turn on). With active feedback, the rotor took 3:45 to come to rest starting from 240 rpm, and cap was at 2.135 volts. Without active feedback rotor came to rest after only 3:05, and cap voltage was 1.987 volts.
With no drive or load on any coil, starting from 240 rpm as the above, the rotor takes 2:55 to come to rest.
So I repeated these tests several times and while each test run has slightly differing times, the relationships are the same. Shortest time to come to rest from a known speed is without anything connected to any coil. Next longest time is with the "motor" coil only being driven by the transistors and cap, with the generator at all times connected through bridge (which provides a path for the BEMF). And finally the longest time is with motoring coils active, and the feedback with switch - once per every 3 motor cycles where the two coils "bootstrap" each other - AND make a motoring force AND still push charge back into the capacitor.
So I have more output than input. But my "losses" are too high to let it self run. I have to increase my turns overall and make wire smaller size - brining the voltage higher and current lower for more force, and lower proportions of losses.
I don't know if I can make it work - but it might, even if Mike hoaxed us! But I think it is worth the new coil I have planned to test anyway.
Cheers
Quote from: hartiberlin on March 01, 2007, 05:43:47 AM
Hmm,
many thanks for the answer.
It seems Mike used the Relay to add a battery inside it and mixed it up himself !
Many thanks for calling Crouzet !
Best regards, Stefan.
acg schrieb:
> Stefan,
>
> I searched all over and finaly talked to Crouzet. There is no such relay that has 4 pins in the exact middle with an output on the LEFT or RIGHT side. Please see the "Joe" folder in the Bedini_window_energizer group for pics of my SSRs. This also is part of a message I posted in that group:
> --------
>
> "...Yes, the dual SSR in my photos folder is also a Crouzet. I believe
> it is very close to the model Mike used too."
>
> "I asked both people from Crouzet and Crydom if there has ever been a
> dual relay that existed with 4 horizontal input pins in the exact
> middle of the SSR (like Mikes) with the output tabs configured on the
> LEFT and RIGHT sides, the answer was NO. The ouputs are always on
> the top and bottom I was told. "
> ------------------
>
> I also talked with an electronic store owner for 30 years, and he never heard of a "mike configed ssr".
>
> It looks like Mike's SSR was not doing anything!
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe
QuoteSo, did he cheat? I for one am not certain yet, but I will try this battery trick to see if I can achieve the same scope shot Mike posted.
Darren,
Make sure to connect your scope ground below the npn transistor in the lower left of the circuit. This will give you a chance at reproducing the scope shot that Mike produced. See the posts on gn0sis for more detail.
I think if you connect right across the main coil (L2), you will get a waveform like CTG, which is the expected result. If Mike had connected above the transistor (right at the coil) I think his wave would have looked like CTG's
Quote from: derricka on March 01, 2007, 02:59:11 AM
SPP-48
If you are using a non rechargeable battery you could notice a gradual voltage drop on the battery even if your motor was overunity due to the uneven current return of the motor during each cycle.
I suggest precharging a large capacitor ( >1000uF) to your battery voltage and place it in parallel with your battery (Observing polarity of course) The motor can stay running while you do this (and will if done correctly). With the capacitor connected you can then disconnect the battery, leaving only the capacitor to act as the battery. If the motor is under unity, the capacitor will only keep it going for a few seconds or minutes instead of weeks or months like a battery could. After all, the electric motor in a battery powered clock can run for many months even with all its energy robbing gears!
I suggest using a 1 Farad capacitor: available in most car stereo shops.
DerrickA
"After all, the electric motor in a battery powered clock can run for many months even with all its energy robbing gears!"
I disagree... The rotor of SPP-48's motor is much heavier then that of a clock motor.
@SPP-48
After you complete your experiment with your current setup and get some results
with the state of batteries what you can do is to replace the magnets with a neutral material of the same weight and run the experiment under the same conditions.
We will then know how much work is done by the magnets and coils.
Best regards,
Devrim
I bought more capacitors and some reed switches today and dis-connected the 2 x 1.2v rechargeable batteries from my motor after 66 hours. The batteries read 2.42v.
I have now added 4 more 10,000uF 50v caps in parallel. I also replaced my home-made magnetic switch with a small glass reed switch.
The original batteries are now re-connected and the motor is running again.
The fluctuating voltages at the coils while running before the modifications (at 60 hours running) were : Coil1 (trigger) = 0.1 ? 0.5 vAC ,Coil 2 (Main) = 0.2 ? 2.6 vAC , Coil 3 (Induction) = 0.1 ? 0.9 vAC.
For those who have requested the construction details for the motor here they are:
Circuit is exactly as per Mike?s except that the PNP transistors are 2N3055 and NPN is MJ2955. The resistor values are from John Bedini?s circuit.
The wire for coils 1 and 3 is 30 AWG (0.25mm) and for coil 2 is 28 AWG (0.315mm).
The coil is twisted trifilar. I set up three wire rolls on a revolving wheel and twisted manually one full turn while winding one full turn. The board with the coil rotates (see photo).
I wound all three wires together for 700 turns then continued with the coil 2 wire for a total of 1074 turns (ran out of wire). Coils resistances are 154 ohms each.
The 6 magnets (see photo) are 150mm x 20mm x 6mm, 1000 gauss ferrite. I have two stacked on top of each other for a total of 1500 gauss each. They are mounted on a plastic tube with double sided tape, with insulation tape over the top for extra security. I used long magnets so as to maximise the amount of coil used for magnet interactions.
The spindle is from an old Fax machine, bearings from a video cassette recorder guide roller and flywheel from an old reel to reel record player (I never throw anything away).
There are two small neodymium magnets stuck to the flywheel with super-glue that activate a magnetic switch. (Since replaced with a reed switch).
Good luck.
SPP-48
I forgot to mention that I have no relay or hall effect sensor set-up as yet.
shouldn't you knock off the plastic fins on each end of the rotor shaft?.. that would add to air resistance.
Many thanks to John Bedini and colleagues for exposing what is probably a fraud. There are two things I would like to see now
1. Mike coming back to prove his device is genuine.
2. A copy of the electricity bill for John Berdinis home.
I guess,that the Rotor of SPP-48 Generator does have a weight more then 500grams
maybe 1000gram.And still we dont know about the parameters of the rechargeables
From 500 milliamps to 2 Amps it might be.Next question would be:How old they are.
What happend,if he takes a supercup with a resistor instead of the batterys.
The Caps have been switched in serie first,and the Motor was running. It was a low speed,but what happend,if he increase the speed manually.Does the Motor keep the speed,ore slows he down.
There are many questions and variations to prove. To me it shows like overunity at all.
Helmut
Quote
I'm still giving Mike a reasonable doubt along with some silent profanity. We have been shown by two of the best that it is possible to fake the self running motor but that does NOT mean that he did that!. I feel the jury or lack of it is still out. If I'm wrong, so be it....I have actually developed a taste for Crow I have eaten it so often....Caw Caw.....burp.
Quote
I agree with giving Mike reasonable doubt. I did not post the SSR picture and information to discredit Mike but to show that the SSR was not likely doing the intended job in the video of the self running motor. Just because it was not hooked up correctly does not mean that it was a hoax. Please note in the video that there are other wires that are parellel to ones that go to the SSR so there are other paths. Maybe someone that has good eyes should trace the wires in the video for more information and provide a circuit from video instead of what was posted. As for putting a battery in the SSR... Why bother. Most are sealed in epoxy.. It would be much easier to tape a battery to the back of the setup and run a couple of small wires. Mike gave out a lot of information before being driven off. One key item is trifilar windings, resistance of wires and gauge of wires. If all his windings were 46 ohms as Mike claimed but he used different gauge wire and it all came out equal at the end that what does that mean...(not that he actually said it came out equal but lets say for a second that it did) Tightness of turns. So if you have 3 spools of wire and the middle spool is the thinest and the outer spools are thicker how tight of turns around the middle thinner wire does it take to get them almost come out equal in length. So what does a trifilar winding get you anyways.. more inductive coupling perhaps.. and what does tighter turns get you.. even more inductive coupling perhaps... Just a couple of points to ponder... Anyway back to my corner winding away.
@helmut
The rechargeable batteries are from my Minidisc player, Sony 1.2v NiMh 2300mAH over 2 years old.
It was still running this morning (75 hours) , although the battery reading was 2.41v. The fluctuating voltage on coil 2 is slightly higher than before at 2.7v AC max.
I have tried spinning the motor faster by hand while running, but it gradually settles back to it?s normal slow pace (I will time it this evening, if it's still running!).
I have looked at getting a 1 Farad super cap, but they are rather expensive. The cheapest at around 100AUD
SPP-48
SPP-48
Assuming you are using 2 batteries in series I calculate your motor would have to be using less than 30 milliamps (average) of current, otherwise your batteries would now be dying. if your motor uses say, only 15 milliamps your battery could go for another 75 hours. Maybe you are lucky enough to borrow a 1F capacitor for a day, because if it ran for more than 10 minutes on that, it would be a contender for overunity. As it is, you may have to run your motor for month to be reasonably sure. At the very least, you have built an impressively efficient motor worthy of our respect!
P.S. if you keep a daily log of your battery voltage readings and post a picture of your battery arrangement we may know in a week....
Just a note here to fix a mistake on the transistors SP used. The 2n3055 is a NPN. Its what is in all of my motors of old. Not a real good choice either. Its slow on response time and not well suited for HV use. Easy to fry them.
sugra
<shameless ad> I have some 3.3F caps, 2.5 volts (but I've used them up to 3.4 volts).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290087883724
@sugra
Thanks for the advice on the transistors. I will look at replacing them with the MPS8099/8599.
@all
The motor was still running when I got to it this evening. The batteries were reading 2.41v after 85 hours. I disconnected and placed them aside while I tried out various other things.
I couldn't understand why I got a very low AC reading on coil1. The Bedini circuit showed a 10 ohm resistor between coil 1 and the transistor. I played with some different values and found that anything between 1K and 50K tripled the AC voltage from coil1 and gave about a 5% increase to the voltage from coils 2 and 3. I settled for 10k.
It still won't run for long without batteries.
I have just reconnected the original batteries and it's merrily chugging away.
SPP-48
QuoteI couldn't understand why I got a very low AC reading on coil1. The Bedini circuit showed a 10 ohm resistor between coil 1 and the transistor. I played with some different values and found that anything between 1K and 50K tripled the AC voltage from coil1 and gave about a 5% increase to the voltage from coils 2 and 3. I settled for 10k.
Did the motor speed change when you increased the resistance?
are you shure , that you can read the AC ??
This is not Sine !!
Peaks and Pulses ...
Not to read with AC Voltmeter !
Pese
Quoteare you shure , that you can read the AC ??
This is not Sine !!
Peaks and Pulses ...
Not to read with AC Voltmeter !
It would be interesting to see a scope shot of the trigger winding while the motor is running.
Hi nice & clever Mike_Modified_J_Bedini_Ron_Cole_Motor_Builders!
Sorry, but I have not the time to read all the posts. I have printed out the entire topic and I promise to read it (as soon as possible)...
My 2 cents however....
My silly question is : does anybody succeed to reproduce this (claimed?) self running motor (I mean : with a mere capacitor & *no* battery) ?
For my part, I have now received all the stuff including the trans., the very Crouzet relay the hall probe the magnets, the copper wire the 47 mili_Farad cap,. I had to made 4 different orders at 4 differents suppliers. Tedious and expensive as soon as ou sometimes have a minimum purchase. My aim is to reproduce this device as accurate as possible.
I have already wound a very beautifull (IMHO :))) square-shaped bifilar coil, built a wood frame and soldered the circuit. Pictures to come soon.
I'm also making some very simple computer calculations and asking a simple question.
This question is :
According to the vid the 47 mili_F cap seems to be charging up to 6 volts (during a single revolution?)
According to the formula : Vcap= Vsource * (1-e^(t/R*C)) should you not be able to draw some abacus to figure out what the R, the t and the Vsource could be and if it could match with what is is known about this device?
For example (should I'm not be mistaking): if you charge a 47 mili_F cap with 74 volts(Vsource), through a 10 ohm resistor during 1/25 seconds, the voltage across the said cap will be 6 volts.
Do you see what I mean? I'm missing something?
My thinking is that this device could actually work but must be very difficult to tune. Manner of the Finsrud device it sounds like a resonant apparatus.
Anyway, now, I have to build the 3th "window" coil, glue my 6 magnets on this plastic tubular rotor, find an axe which will fit my bearings, find an "inertial wheel" (?) and pray that all these parts are going to do something efficient :)).
BTW : should anybody be interested in : I have found the Crouzet Relay at :
http://www.radiospares.fr
command code (code commande) = 3212925
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffreenrg.info%2FBedini%2FReplications%2FCrouzet_Relay.jpg&hash=373c62c8dcec0a06d16602a52330826711a7e34f)
Best
Quote from: SPP-48 on March 01, 2007, 09:42:53 PM
@helmut
The rechargeable batteries are from my Minidisc player, Sony 1.2v NiMh 2300mAH over 2 years old.
It was still running this morning (75 hours) , although the battery reading was 2.41v. The fluctuating voltage on coil 2 is slightly higher than before at 2.7v AC max.
I have tried spinning the motor faster by hand while running, but it gradually settles back to it?s normal slow pace (I will time it this evening, if it's still running!).
I have looked at getting a 1 Farad super cap, but they are rather expensive. The cheapest at around 100AUD
SPP-48
@SPP-48 As longer as the Motor keep running,as closer we come to a stage,that overunity can not be denied.
About the Batterys i have Ideas as follows.
A cup is like a Battery a storage device.One difference is,that the cup rejekt its Power in another stage of polarity. This might cause a counter power in the arrangement of the trifilar coil.
At the Moment,it looks,that the Battery takes elektrons from the Coil and supplies the other coil as well.As you report,that after a manualy increase of the speed,the rotor speeds down to the low speed,led me think,that the bigger amplitude does not reach the driving coil. After i think it all ofer,i get the impression,that the required result ist not according to the size of the cup,than to the polarity
The solution might be qite easy to find.
In your Place i would try to make the cup working like the Recharchables do.
One point of a test could be to take a condensator without polarity .
Another test could be to connect a 1:1 transformer in series tu the cup,and closed up with a diode.
About the cups,i would propose to search by google after information to build a cup yourselve at home.As i can read,there are a lot of facilitys.
Regards from Duisburg
Helmut
@hartiberlin and all, I could be way off, but sometimes crazy ideas might give a project the push it needs. I got two ideas to mention.
1) We are trying to collect the current from the coils we placed on the stator by moving the magnets on a rotor right? We focus on the moving magnetic field outside of the rotor and never think about the moving magnetic field inside the rotor. Is there a way to add a 4th coil inside the rotor so that we can draw current from it?
2) In all these electromagnetic motors we move the magnets which is a lot of work! We have to overcome the friction of the bearings and air etc. If there would be a way to move the magnetic field the process would have been much more efficient and free from the restrictions of the material world.
Also, would you please take a look at the 25 sec. film in the following link. It might give you geniuses (I mean it) some brilliant new ideas.
http://www.izlee.com/video/hd6cp/
Best regards,
Devrim
Mike's scope shots, correctly inverted and time-aligned for better viewing and analysis:
Darren
I have modeled the Mike's mod of the BCWM below. This is a different approach, but once a good model is created, detailed analysis of the motor becomes easy to perform.
- The 47000u cap is pre-charged to 6V.
- Vreference is matched to the L1, L2, and L3 phase for easy reference if desired.
- The Hall and SSR is modeled with a sine source and switch with hysteresis.
- Motor rotation and induction is modeled with V1 and L4. This motor can be modeled as a transformer with 3 secondaries.
Darren
PS. Scope shots to come...
The scope shots:
Trigger, Drive, D2, Generator.
They aren't a perfect match, but close.
All except D2 are differential measurements, with V+ on high side, and V- on low side. D2 is referenced to GND, and is taken off the top of "Rscope".
S1 is not being triggered in these shots as V2 = 0V.
Darren
PS. Let me know of any suggestions, comments, or measurement requests.
Quote from: helmut on March 02, 2007, 11:26:34 PM
One point of a test could be to take a condensator without polarity .
Another test could be to connect a 1:1 transformer in series tu the cup,and closed up with a diode.
@helmut
Thanks for the suggestions I will try them. I also managed to buy (rather cheap) a small 1F supercap 5.5v and a 22F 5.5v that I will be trying (no, it's not a misprint-22Farads).
I disconnected the batteries for the weekend so that I can carry out some structured experiments. The batteries were reading 2.4V, and it took the motor 64 seconds to stop after disconnection from the batteries. The motor has been running on the same batteries for 105 hours.
I have now set up a mechanism which will give the rotor a quick spin and then let go, similar to a hand spin except that it will be consistent. Using this I have started to experiment with different capacitor values and configurations. I have started to notice some interesting results and will post when I have more data.
regards
SPP-48
Quote from: dingbat on March 02, 2007, 01:31:29 PM
Did the motor speed change when you increased the resistance?
@dingbat
I was running it on a 6V torch battery while experimenting with the resistors and it was going pretty fast anyway, but now that you mention it, I believe it did pick up.
regards
SPP-48
Quote from: pese on March 02, 2007, 04:32:28 PM
are you shure , that you can read the AC ??
This is not Sine !!
Peaks and Pulses ...
Not to read with AC Voltmeter !
Pese
@pese
But will it tell me the difference between many peaks and pulses and a few peaks and pulses.
SPP-48
Quote from: NerzhDishual on March 02, 2007, 05:22:19 PM
...I'm also making some very simple computer calculations and asking a simple question.
This question is :
According to the vid the 47 mili_F cap seems to be charging up to 6 volts (during a single revolution?)
According to the formula : Vcap= Vsource * (1-e^(t/R*C)) should you not be able to draw some abacus to figure out what the R, the t and the Vsource could be and if it could match with what is is known about this device?
For example (should I'm not be mistaking): if you charge a 47 mili_F cap with 74 volts(Vsource), through a 10 ohm resistor during 1/25 seconds, the voltage across the said cap will be 6 volts.
Do you see what I mean? I'm missing something?
My thinking is that this device could actually work but must be very difficult to tune. Manner of the Finsrud device it sounds like a resonant apparatus.
Hi NerzhDishual,
I think your calculations are ok but the charging time you consider 1/25 sec I think is way too rapid. Why do you see the cap charges up to 6V under one revolution; which is the video you estimated it from?
The video Stefan uploaded in the first post of this thread, didn't it?
( winmotor_full.wmv )
If we consider a 10 sec time period under which the 47mili_F cap charges up from about 0V to 4.5V (time between 00:12 to 00:22 from the video and the voltage from the meter), then calculation gives about 4.52V source voltage, right? (consider 40 Ohms coil resistance for R value, not 10 Ohms, ok?)
If this is so, then the voltage source is always a few tens of mili_V higher only than the cap voltage and this sounds correct through the 40 Ohms and during the slow charging time, I think.
In other words, I don't think we can say something is wrong / suspicious just from these calculations. It sounds reasonable. Agree?
Regards
Gyula
Hi ZPE ( Darren) many thanks for the insights,
please go ahead and post the sims, when they are done !
Many thanks.
Here is something, user EMdevices posted,
which I think is until now the best explanation for the scopeshots we have seen:
Hellow Everyone,
Wow, I don't check the forum for a day and things change 180 degrees. Don't get drunk Rich, not good for you
Please everyone,
let's not jump to conclusions. John, you've done good work, don't give up.
You might have missed this picture I put up, somebody didn't like it and thought it was confusing, but I received PMs telling me it was great. Not sure if you saw it John.
Remember, Mike said he started with your original circuits. Which means.....
... THE BOTTOM END OF THE MAIN COIL IS CONNECTED TO THE BRIDGE.
I'm just amazed so many people are going round and round in circles. Look at the photos, his coil wires are closely interwined if not even TOUCHING. I think Mike had the common sense to understand that. Also do people know what happens to a reverse biased semiconductor junction? What it behaves like? Stephan, good point about the integrated diode, I have some transistors that have that in them.
Now let me repeat, THE BIG SPIKE DOWNWARD ACROSS THE SOLID STATE RELAY, IS THE MAIN WINDING VOLTAGE, VISIBLE ONLY WHEN THE SWITCH IS CONNECTED AND THE DIODE BLOCKING. It's a floating voltage. Look at the offset. Do a circuit analysis for pete's sake. (or john's and Rich's sake LOL )
Ok, let's persevere. I'll post some interesting stuff soon. I got some solid state stuff to work
Sincerely,
EM
I'd like to go on record by pointing out that IF Mike DID NOT use any trickery or fakery to get the motor to run as shown in his video, then he has overunity.
AND;
Having said that, and IF (hopefully when) the ou mechanism is discovered, the model I have presented here paves the way for a "solid state", i.e. "motionless" version of the Mike-modified BCWM.
It's simply a quad-filar, loosely-coupled air-core transformer. Add a sinewave generator to Drive L4 and a schmidt-trigger/solid-state switch combination to switch in the "ou" from D2, and there you have it.
A battery is used to start the device. i.e. charge the cap, and once the oscillator and switches begin working, the battery could be disconnected.
Darren
Stefan,
I'd like to comment on EM's post, and no disrespect to him, but to be honest, I can't really make heads nor tails of what he is saying, nor what the point is he is trying to make.
EM, are you here?
Regards,
Darren
Hi, is anyone else having problems with access to gnOsis.com or is it just me? Can anyone come up with a link that works?
Just a note that may already have been done.
The induction of the main coil when the feild colapses back into the coil is feed through the NPN transistor as a diode and the bias resistor. This is the main diferance in the original design. The induction timing due to this is were coil three and the switch come into play.
It is also the reason the NPN burnt out.
Hope this helps folks.
For those looking for the Crouzet 84131100 10A relay Mike ended up using, but are having troubles finding it due to its obsolescence, it looks like the replacement is the 84134100.
It doesn't look like anyone stocks this part though, so I checked the 25A version, the 84134110, and there seems to be plenty of stock.
See http://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgpartlist.asp?partno=84134110&mfgid=5804&mfgname=Crouzet&mfg=Crouzet
Aside from being a 25A instead of a 10A, the 84134110 looks to be the same part, and should work well.
http://www.crouzet-usa.com/catalog/gordos/gnssr.pdf
Darren
It looks like Mike received the "touch safe" version of the SSR, so conceiveably, there could be watch batteries hidden under this "touch safe" cover. See the photos of his new white Crouzet relay.
Not saying there are, just a possibility.
Darren
Quote from: hotspringstrading on March 03, 2007, 02:33:10 PM
Just a note that may already have been done.
The induction of the main coil when the feild colapses back into the coil is feed through the NPN transistor as a diode and the bias resistor. This is the main diferance in the original design. The induction timing due to this is were coil three and the switch come into play.
It is also the reason the NPN burnt out.
Hope this helps folks.
Actually, I thought Mike said that the Hall and the PNP died, but it doesn't much matter. I have looked, and there are up to 600V spikes across both the NPN, and PNP transistors, so it is no wonder they may blow.
btw, I have tried the MJL1302A, and MJL3281A transistors as mentioned by John in one of his posts. These are generally used as audio outputs, and they are overkill here, but they seem to work the best so far in my model.
Darren
QuoteThe scope shots:
Trigger, Drive, D2, Generator.
They aren't a perfect match, but close.
All except D2 are differential measurements, with V+ on high side, and V- on low side. D2 is referenced to GND, and is taken off the top of "Rscope".
S1 is not being triggered in these shots as V2 = 0V.
Darren
Great work Darren. It is incredible how well the scope shots simulate what is being observed in reality. Your model must be pretty good.
I would like to see what happens when you trigger s1. I'll be interested to see what it does to the D2 scope simulation. (specifically if the "spike" becomes more distinct)
I would also like to see what happens if the trigger winding is set 180 degrees out of phase with the main winding. (because this would be an easy mistake to make)
Maybe this is the actual relay shown in Mikes video...
Quote from: Lance on March 03, 2007, 07:17:17 PM
Maybe this is the actual relay shown in Mikes video...
It certainly looks like it could be this one, or the 250 (zero-crossing) model, except for one small detail; according to the datasheet for this dual relay, each output is at each end where the mounting holes are. In Mike's video, he is not using the spade connectors this way. He would be using one terminal from each output according to this spec sheet, which of course would not do anything.
http://www.crouzet-usa.com/catalog/obsolete/dualssr.pdf
btw, this part is obsolete too.
Darren
QuoteI would also like to see what happens if the trigger winding is set 180 degrees out of phase with the main winding. (because this would be an easy mistake to make)
db, This is what the Drive coil looks like with the Trigger coil inverted....so it should be obvious with a scope.
Darren
The Generator coil scope shot with the MJL1302A and MJL3281A transistors. Getting closer I think. Transistors do make a difference in this model.
Edit. Sorry, I previously said Drive coil. This is the Generator coil shot.
QuoteStefan,
I'd like to comment on EM's post, and no disrespect to him, but to be honest, I can't really make heads nor tails of what he is saying, nor what the point is he is trying to make.
EM, are you here?
Regards,
Darren
Darren,
I'm not sure if I can explain this well, but I'm going to try.
On the gn0sis.com discussion, a big deal was made of the "spike" in that particular scope shot. It was even touted as the key to the operation of the device. EM noticed that the spike appears to be the top part of the sine wave across L2. (Which sort of debunks the supposed significance of the "spike")
I think EM's observation is significant. I agree with EM, that a portion of the trace is actually the L2 voltage. His overlay clearly shows which part of the waveform matches the L2 voltage, and how closely it matches. It doesn't look like some kind of magic spike when you see EM's diagram.
I think there are some important clues in that scope shot that come to light because of this observation, especially as to whether the ssr was really firing or not.
Because of where the scope was connected, I don't think we would see the exact L2 voltage on the scope unless the SSR was triggered (somewhat confirmed by your simulation).
That scope shot was the same as your D2 shot. This is why I wanted to see what happens when you trigger the ssr in your model. If you can reproduce Mikes scope shot with your D2 shot, including the ssr firing, I think it would be significant, because it would be evidence that Mike's ssr was really triggering when he took the scope shot. If we can conclude that it was triggering, we know almost how long it was triggering by doing some measuring on his scope trace.
Is your last shot the drive coil or the trigger coil? it looks like the trigger winding, but it is labelled drive.
Quote from: dingbat on March 03, 2007, 09:07:58 PM
Is your last shot the drive coil or the trigger coil? it looks like the trigger winding, but it is labelled drive.
Hi db.
That's actually the Drive coil as labeled. You will notice that the Trigger and Drive coil waveforms are very similar, both in my shots, and Mike's.
Darren
db,
Unfortunately, Mike took that scope shot in a really troublesome place, because it is of very high resistance looking both ways; into the diode D2, and back into the SSR. Consequently, just putting the scope probe on this point will affect the scope shot. What is the OFF resistance of the SSR? What is it's ON resistance? How does a "zero-cross" type SSR function?
I agree that what EM drew there does follow the L2 waveform.
There is more to this motor than meets the eye. Because everything is coupled, they all affect each other. Multiple feedback paths....ay!
I am still trying to get a better match for the D2 shot, but there are so many parameters. I could use some suggestions.
Regards,
Darren
Here's a starting point.
Two scope shots between D2 and the SSR. The SSR IS being triggered in these shots, and the red waveform indicates when the SSR is ON.
I used 1MEG for OFF resistance, and 0.1 Ohm for ON. This scope point is being pulled down by a 100MEG resistor.
The first shot is with the Vcheat at 0V (a piece of wire). The second is with Vcheat at 6V.
Any suggestions are welcome.
Darren
Quote
Unfortunately, Mike took that scope shot in a really troublesome place, because it is of very high resistance looking both ways; into the diode D2, and back into the SSR. Consequently, just putting the scope probe on this point will affect the scope shot. What is the OFF resistance of the SSR? What is it's ON resistance? How does a "zero-cross" type SSR function?
I agree that what EM drew there does follow the L2 waveform.
There is more to this motor than meets the eye. Because everything is coupled, they all affect each other. Multiple feedback paths....ay!
I am still trying to get a better match for the D2 shot, but there are so many parameters. I could use some suggestions.
The zero cross ssr typically means that the unit will switch on at zero load voltage, and off at zero load current. They are normally used on 50 or 60hz loads, and this on/off function causes minimum surge and arcing at the load. - turn the load on when the 60hz power is at zero volts, turn off when the current through the load is zero amps.
I was hoping that the portion of the trace where the ssr is on would be significantly different from where it is off. Unfortunately it looks like the 100 meg resistance makes more difference than the on/off function of the ssr in your simulation.
The scope is also grounded at a bad point. The only clear conduction path is through the bottom transistor, and it seems like that transistor would be open when the ssr is closed - but we're not really positive of the timing. I don't know what the transistor would model as in a non-conducting state. I think it would be a very high resistance with a diode in series, but it has been a long time since I studied transistor models. It seems to me like the scope ground would more or less be floating when the transistor is off, and Mikes trace looks like the ground is floating - until the ssr fires, and possibly when the transistor switches.
I'll have to think about it some more. sorry, no great suggestions right now.
Nice work, though.
db
Hi , A desperarate plea for HELP. THe gnOsis.com site seeems to have changed in appearance recently . and I can no longer get into it. Have the Energy Police closed it down, or what? It seems to be no longer listed on Google. Been trying now for at least 24 hours. If you have a link that works, or any info, Please help me. Neptune
gnosis.com web site working,
we need delete IE6/7 browser chaches, or mozilla Firefox browser program can be use.
Thanks db.
Do you think this particular ON/OFF function of the SSR is critical to model the effect properly?
The portion of of the waveform where the ssr is ON, at the moment just shows a positive spike imparted to the existing waveform. After this positive spike, the ON ssr actually seems to have little effect on the rest of the waveform.
I believe the scope is grounded where it should be...the "common". This is also where Mike said he grounded his scope if I recall correctly. Everything should be related back to this common, not the collector of Q2. When Q2 and Q3 are OFF, they are OFF. The only path L2 has at this point to either V+ or GND is through parasitic capacitances, in and around Q2 and Q3, or assymetrical switching of Q2 or Q3.
The timing of the S1 switch is correct I believe, as it coincides with the bemf spike from L2.
I've made some good progress in the last couple hours, so will hopefulyy have something worthwhile to post soon.
Regards,
Darren
Making some progress here.
I've now go the D2 shot pretty close. I've also figured out how to get the double negative pulse consistently (must use low beta transistors for Q2 and Q3!!!).
This D2 shot is with S1 triggered as shown, but with no cheat voltage. I've removed this Vcheat for now. So this is essentially Mike's circuit as published.
The spikes in Mike's shots are "stretched" or "slowed down" (lower Q ?) such that recovery after the initial spike transition is gentle and long rather than fast and short. Anyone have an idea what causes this in Mike's shots?
Regards,
Darren
QuoteDo you think this particular ON/OFF function of the SSR is critical to model the effect properly?
No - you can simulate the timing by changing your phase and voltage, which it appears you did quite effectively.
QuoteThe portion of of the waveform where the ssr is ON, at the moment just shows a positive spike imparted to the existing waveform. After this positive spike, the ON ssr actually seems to have little effect on the rest of the waveform.
I agree. I hoped it would be a little more dramatic. I attached an old post with Mikes "D2" scope shots for visual reference of how much his changed with and without the ssr functioning.
QuoteI believe the scope is grounded where it should be...the "common". This is also where Mike said he grounded his scope if I recall correctly. Everything should be related back to this common, not the collector of Q2. When Q2 and Q3 are OFF, they are OFF. The only path L2 has at this point to either V+ or GND is through parasitic capacitances, in and around Q2 and Q3, or assymetrical switching of Q2 or Q3.
I agree that you have the scope connected where Mike had it connected. I'm just not sure what the original scope shot was trying to show, based upon where it was connected. I thing Mike was responding to a request from Stefan, and didn't put the probes where they should have been. Then Mike disappeared before Stefan could correct it. The npn transistor in the path is a problem.
QuoteThe timing of the S1 switch is correct I believe, as it coincides with the bemf spike from L2.
I agree. Again, Mikes shots posted (the old "inverted" ones) for comparison.
(http://mikehmmoperation1.jpg)
Hi Gyulasun (& everybody),
Quote from: gyulasun on March 03, 2007, 11:52:27 AM
I think your calculations are ok but the charging time you consider 1/25 sec I think is way too rapid. Why do you see the cap charges up to 6V under one revolution; which is the video you estimated it from?
The video Stefan uploaded in the first post of this thread, didn't it?
( winmotor_full.wmv )
If we consider a 10 sec time period under which the 47mili_F cap charges up from about 0V to 4.5V (time between 00:12 to 00:22 from the video and the voltage from the meter), then calculation gives about 4.52V source voltage, right? (consider 40 Ohms coil resistance for R value, not 10 Ohms, ok?)
If this is so, then the voltage source is always a few tens of mili_V higher only than the cap voltage and this sounds correct through the 40 Ohms and during the slow charging time, I think.
In other words, I don't think we can say something is wrong / suspicious just from these calculations. It sounds reasonable. Agree?
Thanks a lot for your remarks. I do agree with all of them.
I use my spare time attempting to reproduce this device. I have not still taken the time to read all the posts. Of course: the more I wait the more I'm lost. :))
However, I have seen that this device is now controversed (you bet it is :))) and that a guy have made a faked one with a small hidden 9V battery. BTW : what are the motivations of this person?
So, I was just wondering: Why not making some simple calculations to 'roughly' figure out if this device could be 'possible'. I'm not a scientist. This 1/25 second was just an (unfortunate) example.
Actually:
you opened my eyes. I was so excited to get my own replication that I even did not take enough time to carefully watch the vid!
I had a more attentive view to this very vid and I saw that it actually tooks about 10 seconds to get the cap charged up to more than 4 volts...I also saw that this motor seems not to run so "smoothtly". Sounds like it were stalling during a split second. Perhaps is it the vid (or my computer) that is stammering?
If it is not the case that is a good point. An hidden battery would not make the motor behaving the same way? Would it?Best
db,
Thanks for the reply.
QuoteI hoped it would be a little more dramatic. I attached an old post with Mikes "D2" scope shots for visual reference of how much his changed with and without the ssr functioning.
I'd say those positive spikes are somewhat dramatic. The difference between Mike's and mine... I have not yet been able to figure the reason, but I speculate that it may have something to do with the ratios of inductance between the 3 coils. Both at switch ON and OFF of L2, one can clearly see part of the clean sine wave present for some of the waveform afterwards. This effect I have not yet duplicated, but I will be working on it. If I can sipher this out, I'm confident the model will then be almost complete.
I wonder if anyone out there that has wound these coils as per Mike, could measure their inductances and resistances. This would let me know if I am in the ball park. I am going to try doubling the inductance of L1 and L3 and see what effect that has.
Oh, and just in case anyone thinks the apparent offset difference in the two scope shots of Mike's (equivalent to my D2 shots) is significant or part of the effect, I would argue that this is not the case. It looks as though Mike moved the vertical offset on his scope in order to capture on the screen the ou spike when the Hall is ON.
Thanks,
Darren
The last post from the user z_p_e!!!
I think you are absolutelly correct it depends on right set up of the coils!!!
Follow this !!
Friends!! ;D
I think i have found out how it works (using brainwashing with my frineds also :-))
Please be very carefull about these experiments, because it can move two ways + -
And it can do wondefull or scarefull things!
Please be carefull, because maybe it is possible to increase the speed of rotation and it could explode or implode - depends of the rotation !!!! and other things (but i am a little bit scared to tell you ;-))
I am thinking about how to explain the theory the more simplest way that you and other people will understand this effect.
It is about making these things like a toys - the SPP-48 motor is that toy!!!
Please stay tuned, my brain capacity is expanding as i am focusing on this thing!!
Did you mention that? ;)
focus - lens :-)
I am really tired of thinking,
I will try to do an experiment which proves these facts.
And now the think why i am a little bit scared about this technology:
the picture in the attachment :-)
These pictures are taken out of a sound program which use kind of synthesis where a few math functions is aplied.
and this is the grahical look. The objects morph in each other just depends on the input parameters!!!!!!
Think of it!!!!!
This could proove the existence of god or something like that.
These images are mathematical patterns which are created when we are moving to the center or out of the center of the lens.
I have to think of this more because i feel i am close to understand the whole thing!
Look at the picture you can find the patterns in every where in all kind of sciences!!
We are close, all of us.
Just look or try to do some positive investigation on these things
I am sorry that i am "off topic" :-)) i am also working on a motor prototype with my friend
waiting for the magnets.
I will try to do experiment with two devices
one with 4 ferit magnets and one with 4 neodym magnets. (It will show the difference)
I just have to matematically calculate it to find out the best set up.
Please stick up for me, bot not a lot ;)
I will tell you more tomorow i am relly tired.....
Additionall:
accelerator of the particles at CERN is that motor but it is going the oposite way!
So it is i think dangerous - big explosion or implosion could occur if my theory will be proven as a fact......... that is the last idea before short sleep :) :)
QuoteI wonder if anyone out there that has wound these coils as per Mike, could measure their inductances and resistances. This would let me know if I am in the ball park. I am going to try doubling the inductance of L1 and L3 and see what effect that has.
These are Mike's description of his coils:
QuoteI use (28 gauge .012 in. main)
(30 gauge .010 in. trigger, generator)
I get a little over 40 ohms each
the main winding is longer than the generator and trigger windings. I did not count #turns sorry.
Mike's quote on the voltages of all the coils:
Quote
4.5v ac main winding
2.2v ac trigger winding
2.8 v ac third winding
The scope shots from his motor also give us good clues about the ratio between the coils.
Since the trigger and third winding actually have the same number of turns, and they are the same physical size, I would think they would be very close to the same inductance, even though the wire is slightly different size. The resistance would be a little different.
The "main" winding - L2 - must be a higher inductance than the other two - perhaps twice as much, since the voltage is close to twice the other two windings. (since the voltage would be proportional to the number of turns, and so would the inductance)
I would guess twice the inductance on L2, and twice the resistance.
He says the trigger and 3rd windings are about 40 ohms. I would guess L2 at 80 ohms.
For sure L2 has to have more turns than L3, because if it didn't it couldn't contribute to the charging due to the diodes.
db,
I calculated wire length from resistance and wire diameter. Then from this and the approximate dimensions of the coil, the number of turns was calculated.
From number of turns comes inductance. Since L2 has roughly twice as many turns as L1, and L3, L2 should have 4X the inductance, which is what you see on my diagram.
Here is the scope shot of all coils, open circuit, no switching, running at 666 RPM:
A D2 shot showing a more pronounced postive pulse similar to what Mike's looks like. I wonder if this is how Mike's would look if we could see more of the waveform?
Anyone want to take a shot at guessing how I got it to do this?
Darren
Hi Darren.
RPM 666.. funny..
QuoteAnyone want to take a shot at guessing how I got it to do this?
Sure.. I will take a shot.. How about position of coils or perhaps how the coils are wound above the magnets. You are so close.. You are almost there.. Check out the waveforms here.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/mromexp.htm
compare them to your wave forms.... Hummm.. Look at the overhead picture of the Mini-Romag.. Look at coils 1 and 4 and get rid of coils 2,3,5 and 6... What does it look like to you... ??? you are so close.. :o
Later,
Tom :)
QuoteAnyone want to take a shot at guessing how I got it to do this?
By inverting L3? (maybe reversing the scope leads?)
However you did it, that is more like the dramatic effect I was looking for.
Nice.
QuoteWHAT CAUSES THIS
The portion you have circled is where the trigger winding is transitioning on. I think this provides a more solid ground for the scope because the transistor is conducting. Hence the voltage shift on the scope. It must have something to do with the transistor switching on.
The next shift by the double spike is where the transistor switches off (and on and off again.) That's what I think, anyhow.
Fundamentally, I think Mike's scope was working with a "floating" ground, depending upon what state the transistor and ssr were in. Your simulations may have trouble exactly duplicating a nearly floating ground.
I'm very impressed with where you are. I think at this point you have successfully shown that the "spike" seen on Mikes scope shot is predictable by proper analysis of the system.
QuoteSure.. I will take a shot.. How about position of coils or perhaps how the coils are wound above the magnets. You are so close.. You are almost there.. Check out the waveforms here.
I studied the Naudin waveforms a few days ago after tao published them on gn0sis.com.
It is curious that Mike's (and others') are much more sinusoidal than the Naudin waveforms. I think I know why, but I'm waiting for more of a discussion to develop on that point. There are some interesting nuances brough out in that information that may be exploitable in the window motor. So far it doesn't look like anyone is producing the type of waveform that Naudin predicts with this kind of setup.
Yes, dingbat :)
That is the right way ;D
Here are two diagrams (I am removing the diagrams effective 3/10 at John Bedini's request) courtesy of John Bedini and Tom Bearden from their new book, "Free Energy Generation." I am currently attempting to duplicate this so I will likely need some help. I won't hesitate to contact John since he seems willing to help those who purchase the book. I'll likely need some additional help so hopefully we can help each other. I am a chemist/biologist so although I had an EE course in my Eng. Sci. undergrad degree, I haven't had any graduate work in the area but I read Bearden's Energy from the Vacuum two years ago and was very impressed, and the area seems now to have larger acceptance.
Guys,
What I did was add a single Diode D7. With D2 now, this constitutes a half-wave rectifier, only it is backwards to what would normaly be done. Perhaps Mike was testing with rectification on both L2 and L3, and this is what he came up with.
I'm not saying there is a hidden diode D7 in his circuit, just that this seems to give similar results for the D2 scope shot.
The 10 Ohm resistors were added to "reduce the gain' of Q2, and Q3. I've gone with TIP33 and TIP34 as these are closer to what Mike used.
Darren
Hi z_p_e,
which elec.simulation software ,circuitmaker,multisim..?
Dingbat wrote :
QuoteSo far it doesn't look like anyone is producing the type of waveform that Naudin predicts with this kind of setup.
I believe Naudin used a nicely wound bifilar air coil and everyone trying to reproduce Mikes setup is just clumping the wire together in a jumbled mess. This will make a very BIG difference. Bifilar in Naudin's case is winding the coil from one direction to the other and then running the single wire back to the first winding position and starting again. I am wondering if this method was what Mike was refering to as bifilar instead of twisting the wire together which is what everyone seems to think. :-[
Later,
Tom :)
QuoteI'm not saying there is a hidden diode D7 in his circuit, just that this seems to give similar results for the D2 scope shot.
Interesting. There was some discussion of the transistors possibly having "snubber" diodes in them. I wonder if a diode around one or more of the transistors would cause anything similar?
If you notice, there really is not a complete conduction path for L2 to discharge to the capacitor (because of the transistor). This caused some of the speculation about the snubber diodes in the transistors.
Maybe there is a creatively placed diode in Mike's circuit, or maybe a diode in the transistor will produce the same effect. (I assume a snubber diode would go from emmiter to collector, and be reverse flow of the transistor?)
db
Darren,
After trying to study your new diode location, I'm not sure your original model matches Mike's actual circuit.
I'm going to study it closer when I have more time, but look over how you have the full wave bridge and capacitor and ssr stuff connected. I don't think it is per Mike's schematic. If I'm right, it might explain some things.
In mike's schematic, L3 is directly connected to the fw bridge (ac inputs), and the capacitor is connected directly to the + and - points on the fw bridge. I'm not sure I'm following your schematic correctly, but I don't think you have it connected this way. There might also be issues with how you have the ssr and diode connected from L2 to the fw bridge. Don't have time to study it close right now, but double check it if you have time.
I'm pretty convinced your 47000 uf cap is not connected properly - it doesn't appear to connect directly to the + side of the fw bridge, which Mike's does.
db
Dingbat wrote: -
QuoteBy inverting L3? (maybe reversing the scope leads?
John Bedini's latest schematic on the GnOsis.com forum shows L3 connected in anti-phase to L1 and L2.
on the coil windings with out mike, we can only suspect. Did he center the trifiber method, or put it at one end with the longer coil wraped at one or the other end.
One would suspect he centered it for the most induction as in a transformer, reducing the copling problems, but this may not be so.
It is going to be folks will have to wind a bunch of coils to get were he was at.
How he gets the longer spike time is he used the magnetic induction in relation to the colapsing magnetic feild induction. Timing on this item is going to be tight.
Hi db.
I have already tried the snubber diode idea, and no effect.
If you have a close look at both mine and Mike's diagrams, you will see that they are the same, including the bridge, cap, and S1. I assure you that it is correct. Of course I've moved the FWBR output off the cap+ for now to drive a 100 Ohm load instead, but in my previous schema01 it was connected there.
The way D2 and D7 are configured right now is not to capture bemf, it capture emf, but only when S1 is ON. Why Mike did this is still a mystery right now. It would have been more "logical" to try and capture the bemf from L2 and send that to the cap+.
The bemf can be captured by feeding D2 from L2-2, and D7 from L2-1, but D7 will have to be GND referenced, not V+ referenced to do this.
Darren
Quote from: hotspringstrading on March 05, 2007, 12:16:11 PM
How he gets the longer spike time is he used the magnetic induction in relation to the colapsing magnetic feild induction. Timing on this item is going to be tight.
I haven't seen this longer spike due to induction. By inserting D7 I have been able to see it.
I can give you any timing you want...just let me know.
Darren
QuoteIf you have a close look at both mine and Mike's diagrams, you will see that they are the same, including the bridge, cap, and S1. I assure you that it is correct. Of course I've moved the FWBR output off the cap+ for now to drive a 100 Ohm load instead, but in my previous schema01 it was connected there.
That's what was throwing me off.
We are somewhat assuming that Mike actually knew exactly what he was doing, and that he had a purpose for it. I'm not sure that was the case.
It appears from his circuit and his comments (if you review everything he said on gn0sis before he disappeared) that:
1) L3 is always being tapped to the capacitor through the bridge - generating both halves of the cycle.
2) He thought somehow he was putting L2 in series with L3 for part of the cycle to increase the kick to the capacitor or something.
If Mikes circuit diagram is correct, it is unclear (to me) how L2 was supposed to feed the capacitor. (I'm not saying it doesn't, but I just don't completely understand how it would work as drawn) I can see that his intention was to tie L2 to the bridge, and to keep L3 from backfeeding to L2 (the blocking diode), etc., But I can't see how his circuit would have actually functioned as "planned?" without some addition.
I'm just rambling.
Sorry db,
But I did mention the 100 Ohm load in that other post. I added the 100 Ohm load so that the FWBR and D2 would see a load, because the cap was not providing one (it is pre-charged to 6V).
I think, unless someone has a better suggestion, I'll put the cap back in as the load, but I will add a battery to power the circuit. This way the cap can charge from 0V and we can see how circuit changes affect this rate of charge in the cap. The cap and battery +'s will not be connected together (i.e. the cap will be isolated and charged from the FWBR and D2).
Darren
Kind of off subject, but -
These are all quotes from gn0sis - mostly stuff that Mike said.
Reviewing it gives some clues on his thought process.
Quote2007/02/10 12:41
Hi Dom,
wind your coil yet?
look for about 6-8 ohms on the main winding this gives a large back EMF wich charges the cap quick at first.
I will try to attach the video of my window type motor now
cheers
Mike
Quote2007/02/11 05:16
Hey Dom,
The circuit will need a battery for power source.. Their are some modifications needed for acheiving unity, then you can get rid of the battery. Dont worry about that for now just get it to run with a battery.
Also I made a mistake the main winding on my motor is 46 ohms so 40-60 ohms sorry about thatsad
cheers
Mike
Quote2007/02/11 08:19
Yes feedback, and play with sw1 timing
o I must tell you I use the third winding on my stator coil as a generator winding to charge the cap up from 0v, then when the transistors begin to pulse the back emf through sw1 brings the voltage on the cap even higher till it levels and the motor is then runing at unity (this is just what I think is hapening and I could be missing somthing here)
OK
Mike
Quote2007/02/11 22:19
@Marco I don't Know how long the motor can run for, but I always stop it after a few hours or so. I am scared to leave it running unattended (a fire or explosion would not be good)the running voltage is higher when I give it a big spin by hand. so far every time I ran it the voltage has always leveled off some where bellow 12v or so my cap is good up to 25v
@D glad to here that you have started construction
cheers
Quote2007/02/11 22:51
Yes all correct. I am working on a diagram type schematic that should help. I will post it soon.
Mike
The trigger coil is for motor timing, The hall effect is for charge timing.
2007/02/12 02:15
allright after tracing all the wires I have come up with a diagram of the modification. and a close call, I had found the motor would not run after a couple wires were swiched around by accident. coil polarity is very important.razz
Quote2007/02/12 02:34
@Tao
yes same as Bedini/Cole.
All components are the same except for the added parts a hall IC and a ss relay and also third winding.
cheers
Mike
Quote2007/02/13 00:43
great work D.
you must get your window motor running,
then we can talk about charge timing and unity.
study the scope shots I posted and you will get an idea of timing. Two EMF spikes per cycle
I go back to work
Mike
Quote2007/02/14 01:52
@ Stefan
I think the third winding is allways charging the cap
the ss relay puts the main winding in series with the third winding at the correct time, take into account the rectifier diode in between them.
Mike
Quote2007/02/14 02:41
stefan,
I don't know if all is needed for the circuit.I just know that this is how I got it to run longer. how long I dont know so far maby a couple hours. I belive it is working at or near unity. i will swap the bad parts now and try to get it running again.
As for the posistion of my flywheel magnets I will give that info later after I have finished my testing.
cheers
Mike
Quote2007/02/14 02:57
yes the original circuit will charge the cap
my modification charged the cap from 0v faster
Quote2007/02/15 04:54
HMM wrote:
OK Stefan, on second look your circuit is correct.
the ss relay on your circuit looked wrong but I see it now
sorry Mike
No problem Mike,
at least we know now, that I did draw it right.
I am still puzzled if the lower NPN transistor is
still conducting, when you use the SS Relay ?
Do you charge up the capacitor just with the
spikes or also with the current waveform between the
2 spikes ?
2007/02/15 05:06
I know that the third winding charges the cap. and I think somthing coming through the ss relay helps this charge.
still trying to get my motor to work correctly, It has prooven to be harder than I thought.
I will post new scope shots soon
Mike
Quote2007/02/15 05:39
I just want to say that I have never claimed this to be overunity I think it is near unity the third winding charges the cap quickly and the motor runs of this charge for a long time not forever.
Mike
Quote2007/02/15 22:35
@Stefan
taken across cap neg. and ss relay output before diode.
scope neg to cap neg
2007/02/15 22:41
no it will not run long without hall sensing. I pulled the hall output to ss relay, I spun it by hand for the scope shot (without hall ss relay)
Quote2007/02/16 05:11
thank you Dom,
Lets build and then compare results
I am going to build another to the same specs and see if it performes the same.
When you get your motor to run on a battery, charge a cap off the bridge dc then time the ss relay to dump this charge back on the battery. when you get the correct timing the motor will draw little to no current from the battery. this will be the same timing for the moddified circuit. use three magnets in triangle formation.
Hope this helps
cheers mike
Here is some info that may be irrelevant, or it just might be a key to the whole problem of the current path for the motor coil to charge the cap. I have just been reading about a circuit where an ordinary NPN silicon transistor, which is NOT switched on , indeed it has nothing connected to the base. Yet it not only conducts in the "wrong direction", but exibits NEGATIVE RESISTANCE whilst doing so. When it comes to understanding circuits, I am just a thick ex-lorry driver. But what if I am right. Better brains than mine need to look at this, and dont dismiss it without looking. Google "negistor" and there are 2 sites of interest , one is Keelynet, and the other is, I think, a John Bedini site. Wasnt John saying something like this? Go on, take a look, You KNOW you want to. I have limited computor skills and cant post links, But one of the sites mentions a specific transistor that definitely shows these characteristics. Dont let this pass without comment....Neptune
This Bedini/Cole motor sounds an awful lot like what the guys over at Steorn are doing.
Sean McCarthy stated in an RTE radio interview that, "What we have developed is a way to construct magnetic fields so that when you travel round the magnetic fields, starting and stopping at the same position, you have gained energy... The energy isn't being converted from any other source such as the energy within the magnet. It's literally created. Once the technology operates it provides a constant stream of clean energy."
(from wikipedia)
this company names their technology "orbo" and only have patented one part of their system, because the patent office doesn't take patents having to do with the breaking of the supposed "laws of physics"
they say they will give specifications by the end of this quarter, and put it in the market by the end of '07.
check it out at www.steorn.com
With regard to transistor junction, i remember an Endless Amplifier on J Naudins site looked very interesting and have wondered if the phases could be adapted to drive a window motor, the energy appears betwen the transistor junctions.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/gsea21.htm
this is not absorber
this is not a amplifierer
this will not take any "free energy".
It is only an multivibrator that works
over 3 transistors than usually 2 transistors.
(not posh-pull , but rotating 120? switching)
cant be used for devices that members (here) are lockimg vor.
Gustav Pes?
http://pese/159m.com/fe/index.html
Quote from: gezgin on March 05, 2007, 09:15:21 AM
Hi z_p_e,
which elec.simulation software ,circuitmaker,multisim..?
I use OrCad PSpice. The best imo.
Darren
Dingbat wrote:
QuoteWe are somewhat assuming that Mike actually knew exactly what he was doing, and that he had a purpose for it. I'm not sure that was the case.
I am suspecting Mike was just trying random things and got it to work. The video segment of the self runner that clearly shows the dual SSR not hooked up leads me to believe that but there are other wires involved so a circuit path could be elsewhere.. Some other things he wrote indicate a level of random trying especially after he toasted his setup and was trying to get it to work again. Still I wish he would come back and confirm a few items to help us along. It could be he tried to replicate and could not get a second setup to work so he just silently left.
Later,
Tom :)
I have no experience in electrical engineering or whatever it is you're all using to understand and/or recreate the original item.
Can someone summarize what's going on now for me please. : )
Is this a false alarm?
Does it have any practical applications?
What does it mean to people at this stage?
Thanks in advance for any replies. I just want to get involved with the excitement. ; )
If it is really works I amready to buy it and I want to use it,
If it really work we can sell it easily
you can send one model to me
I will use it in my factory
and definitely more and more people will use it if it is cheaper then todays electriciy cost.
Is anybody from here canadian? ;)
The guys in the CERN are going wrong way ;)
that is the clue :)
Just an update for those interested. My motor has been running on the same batteries for 148 hours now, although the voltage is now at 2.38v. I expect it will stop shortly.
I have been trying different capacitor configurations. I now have a bank of 12 x 1000uF 63v in parallel as providing the best results. I found the 1F & 22F caps difficult to evaluate as I could not charge them up with hand spinning the motor. Once the cap was charged with a battery the motor just ran and ran. I stopped it as I realised that it might just as well be connected to a battery.
It's interesting to note in Dingbat's summary that Mike said to use three magnets on the flywheel. For what it?s worth my best results so far were when three magnets* were aligned between the rotor magnets - from the top : N * S - N * S - N * S. Although I still have a reed switch set-up without a relay.
I still need to order the hall IC and relay.
Regards
SPP-48
I am canadian..Albertain to be exact...what did you need acid?
@SPP-48
Thanks for the replay.
For a moment i was thinking,that you got it working as Mikes Motor and you were
preparing a Video Demonstration,to show us the myrical.
Who knows..perhaps it is a matter of a few days.
Can you please list some information about the Setup of your coil arangement.?
And perhaps some detais too.
My own setup is in rest,because i wait for the Osziloskop to be delivered.
So long every day i see the thread to be informed and i guess,that many do so.
Did you make mesurement about the weight of the Rotor? This might be a important parameter to kalkulate the Power,that was supplied by the system to keep the Rotor moving that long time.
Some ideas i have in mind.
One is,that there must be a simularity to a otto motor. To get the most Power out of the Piston,it ist important to setup the best Time/delay of the Point,that the spark is flashed.
In my opinion is the fashback (from the power out of the Cap) a very signifikant point in the relation between the magnet and the torque.
Perhaps it is easy to prove in your stetup such a adjustment.
Your Batterys do not increase the Voltage.It does not mean,that there are no Elektrons be moved to the Battery.It doese mean,that the voltage level is not
different enaugh to encrease the tension.
I which much succsess to you. At the end all of us will profit from this research.
Regards from Duisburg
Helmut.
One thing I am woundering is if the vom he used was damaged backfeeding voltage to the circuit.
Hi Acid
I am Canadian.
@helmut
I gave coil and magnet details in my reply #396 on 2 March.
@all
Can anyone tell me where the Crouzet GN84137100 can be bought from. The only source I have managed to find is Camis in the UK, but they don't seem interested in shipping to Australia.
Cheers
SPP-48
Hi SPP-48,
Try Farnell in the UK, they stock them.
I think they would be OK shipping to Oz.
Rob
Quote from: SPP-48 on March 07, 2007, 01:08:53 AM
@helmut
I gave coil and magnet details in my reply #396 on 2 March.
SPP-48
Thanks for the advise.Seems that i need new Glasses.
Helmut
Thanks Meggerman. I will give them a try.
Quote from: SPP-48 on March 07, 2007, 01:08:53 AM
@all
Can anyone tell me where the Crouzet GN84137100 can be bought from. The only source I have managed to find is Camis in the UK, but they don't seem interested in shipping to Australia.
Hi Spp ,
It might be worthwhile checking here first, this guy has 52 of the original switch (84131100) that Mike used. They appear to be surplus stock , so possibly at a good price too. The guy is in USA so it is still overseas for us.
http://www.hkinventory.com/public/OfferInventResult.asp?Order=1&pnums=84131100&crit1=&crit2=&category=&product=&keywords=&words=3&country=&postdate=&brand=&crit3=&crit4=0&datecode=
wow thats huge, might be better to just google 84131100 (exactly that no GN or anything ) its the first hit on page, some sort of component tradeing site .
hope this helps
Tony.
Quote from: tonyc on March 07, 2007, 05:12:47 AM
Quote from: SPP-48 on March 07, 2007, 01:08:53 AM
@all
Can anyone tell me where the Crouzet GN84137100 can be bought from. The only source I have managed to find is Camis in the UK, but they don't seem interested in shipping to Australia.
Hi Spp ,
It might be worthwhile checking here first, this guy has 52 of the original switch (84131100) that Mike used. They appear to be surplus stock , so possibly at a good price too. The guy is in USA so it is still overseas for us.
http://www.hkinventory.com/public/OfferInventResult.asp?Order=1&pnums=84131100&crit1=&crit2=&category=&product=&keywords=&words=3&country=&postdate=&brand=&crit3=&crit4=0&datecode=
wow thats huge, might be better to just google 84131100 (exactly that no GN or anything ) its the first hit on page, some sort of component tradeing site .
hope this helps
Tony.
Guys,
I've already done the research and given you an alternative back at message #425, but I'll repeat it here for your convenience:
QuoteFor those looking for the Crouzet 84131100 10A relay Mike ended up using, but are having troubles finding it due to its obsolescence, it looks like the replacement is the 84134100.
It doesn't look like anyone stocks this part though, so I checked the 25A version, the 84134110, and there seems to be plenty of stock.
See http://www.mectronic.com/scripts/mfgpartlist.asp?partno=84134110&mfgid=5804&mfgname=Crouzet&mfg=Crouzet
Aside from being a 25A instead of a 10A, the 84134110 looks to be the same part, and should work well.
http://www.crouzet-usa.com/catalog/gordos/gnssr.pdf
Darren
Hi Guys,
Ben has done a great work on this device and here are his latest findings
with pictures.
Hi All,
Where to start. I am going to load a series of photos in my section
label starting with Fig. 1 and go up from there. It will show the
progression of the motor, where it came from and how it has ended up.
I will all assume the group has a basic understanding of how the SSG
or Bedini Blocking Osc. motor works. My motor is built with 10
alternating N/S/N/S Neo 45 magnets on a small rotor at 36-Degree
intervals.
Basic specifications/parts:
10 magnets
1 Coil, Litz, wound with # 27/44 cotton-covered wire.
1 Transformer Bogen T-725
1 Transistor MPS 8099.
1 FWBR bridge 1N4007's
1 Diode mass 1N4007 X 10, part of RE internal loop.
2 pots 10K 10 Turn
1 "conditioned battery" U1 size, Wall Mart Special.
Conditioned means DEAD by discharging to 1 V repeatedly. This
results in a high impedance primary battery, a large capacitance and
a high potential capacity secondary battery all in package or "Node".
This motor absolutely started off life as a Bedini single ended
device to replicate Mike's motor. I soon became disillusioned but
decided to stay positive and well "geter done" myself.
First as all my previous post showed, I explored the abilities of my
motor, how fast it could run how slow it could and on/at what power
levels. I went from 8,000 rpm where it threw a magnet to 20 rpm at 1
ma DC.
The coil on my motor is very special but not impossible for others to
make, as it is built out of 27 strands of #44 wire, wound in the Litz
configuration. Yes, that is 27 strands of #44 wire which looks to be
smaller than a human hair. Out of the 27 strands, I chose 4 to be
the drive coil and 22 to be the motor coil. Hard on the eyes and
back ringing out those 4. Not easy to do but it can be done. This
also leaves us with a coil that is extremely close coupled, very
powerful magnetically with low hystersis using the Neo magnets. I am
not at all certain this is the only way to do it, I suspect the low
PM field motors would work but Rpm's are a priority here as within
each passage is a burst of Oscillatory action the produces the RE and
more pulses=more RE. My motor at 1200 rpm produces 90,000 RE
pulses/min! Yes, that is 15 pulses/magnet passage, 5 N magnet
passes/rev X 1200 or 75 pulses/rev X 1200=90,000 pulses! A few
pulses here and there just don't hack it in the real world.
Pulses=Power!
Lets start of with basic schematic.
Fig 1. It's been around, works great, no problem. Well it has
problems if used with NEOS but it basically is a real buzzer. Thanks
to John for his insight in making this system available to us. It
had switching speed problems, current problems if used with NEO's,
losses in the core but still a good design. Losses in the base diode
etc. An excellent place to start. Now If I mutilate any schematic,
I am drawing them from memory??bear with me.
Fig. 2 is the Bedini/Cole/Window motor most basic design. It is much
better as it is air core, more open coupled, free running and runs at
relative low rpms on relative low power if used with ceramic magnets
and the correct resistance in the motor base circuit. The use of Neo
magnets induces higher currents in the L2 circuit along with heating
of transistor, high hystersis losses, etc. There is a trade off here
in what to use.
Fig. 3. This was my first step in reducing current in motor with Neo
magnets. As I discovered my motor would run with multi K ohms in the
base circuit of my single ended circuit, I did NOT need the diode in
the base. That is with the MPS 8099. I offer no guarantees with any
other transistor. 8 days of 24 hours a day run time is living proof
of this. It works without it and lowers drain in the circuit. OK
this got rid of excess current in the base.
Fig 4. With a 6 ohm coil, a 30% duty cycle, I still had about 150-
200 ma in the collector circuit when my motor was running. I found
at this time that with the correct resistance, I could adjust my
motor to pulse like heck while the N magnet was passing with VERY
clean 50us pulse on, 100us pulse off, up to 15 times each power
magnet passage and still run. All waveforms if show later will be
collector to ground. THIS REDUCED MY current down to 50-80-ma
average. Still too high. At this time I had a potent RE generator
but it was going everywhere and nowhere at the same time. Even
though, it appeared to be 97-98% efficient like this it was still way
out of the park.
Fig. 4. STEP 2. I added a diode across the coil. Normally this can
be added here or across the transistor but I wanted to keep all that
energy IN the coil area. This is commonly used to short out BACK EMF
and protect the transistor but we do NOT want to protect, we want to
capture the generated back EMF and the RE produced by the multitude
of pulses in the inductor/transistor interface. This DIODE LOWERED
the average current down to where I could run on about 12-18 ma! at
7-800 rpm. AND IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY IN THIS CIRCUIT. Curiously,
I could measure current in I-1 of 15 ma and current I-2 would be in
the 45-ma range. There was a ratio of 3/1 circulating currents in
L2/D1 node but there was no way to use them. This ratio will be
found to be VERY important as we go along.
Now we have 1 power node consisting of a funky battery,
inductor/diode system in series with a transistor NPN junction and
return to the battery. A secondary base emitter junction which I
will let die a slow death here due to the high resistance, low
current in it. It might have importance but have not explored it at
this time.
This INTERNAL node (D1/L2 )with all the power being wasted in it was
the key but I was damned if I could figure out a way to get at it. I
tried a third winding, bridge with poor output; I tried large car
ignition coils with limited success and many times thought I was
unity only to be disappointed in the end. In the thousands of
questions I asked my self one answer stood out. What if I could take
part of that series circulating pulsating node RE and back EMF and
steer it back on the battery node? How to do it was the question.
It is a basic low resistance area with the driving coil being only 6
ohms so whatever I did had to be low resistance. I tried switches, I
tried open-ended coils, I tried SCR's Triacs, Diacs, SIDAC's, Voodo
and cursing under my breath and nothing worked.
With some gentle review from Tom Bearden in his letter, I found my
self thinking about nodes. RE nodes, Curentless nodes??..What? no
current? Negative electron flow, my mind got to flail away at a
seeming impossible problem. That damn battery/Cap/RE regenerator node
had its grip on me and I had to find a way to channel some of this RE
back on itself. My motor was Soooooo close, all I needed was .1% of
SOME kind of energy to kick it over the top. I knew that
conventional systems with their closed loop just DID NOT WORK. Lentz
law/effect saw to that?. Pure regeneration from a generator action
will NEVER work. Depression, lack of sleep, mind in hyperdrive and
lets try this, lets try that lets try impedance matching instead of
current or voltage. Let's try a LINE matching transformer. A
transformer it is but with a twist. I won't go into its theory just
let's say it passes RE like a champ. Here is the final Multi Node
representation of the motor in:
Fig 4. Notice there are 3 basic major nodes and 1 sub node,
unexplored. Loop 1-4. Loop 1 is the basic normal motor node, real
voltage and real current. Loop 2 is an internal node/loop, lots of
voltage, lots of current and lots of RE if my basic theory is
correct. REMEMBER all this is a bunch of theories I have from
observation. I do NOT know them to be facts. Then there is Loop 3,
The weird one! We will first discuss what I can measure and what I
can not and what effects are noticed. Then I will discuss the
circuit. There is a DC potential developed in this node referenced
to ground that varies from basically the battery voltage up to 150
volts depending on the loading resistance in the feedback loop.
Right now I have approximately 3000 ohms in series with the output.
I measure .210 V drop across that resistor which also results in a
measured .00007 amp (.07 ma) which is almost 1.47 millawatts! power
output or drain back into the central battery node. This definitely
will NOT move mountains! BUT when I connect this node back to the
central node/ battery the motor responds as if it was about a 10 ma
boost in current and appears to ignore the resistor. Without the
node, I was running 15 ma in the motor and 750-RPM. 45 ma in Node or
Loop 2. WITH THE NODE connected, I can drop the current in Loop 1 to
5.5 ma, Loop 2 node current is now about 16 ma (ratio of 3/1), loop 3
real current .07 ma, RPM 1200! And voltage constantly rises in the
central node/battery! About 1-3 mv every 15-min until some point is
reached I assume, I have not reached it yet. It has risen all day.
Also adjusting the resistor in Loop 3 DOES NOT EFFECT CURRENT IN LOOP
1 or two or motor speed! Motor loading does NOT effect Loop 3,2 or 1
except as it slows down the current goes DOWN. There is obviously
something going on in loop 3 that does NOT show up on normal metering
devices but it does show up in output of MOTOR! MOTOR RUNS FASTER
WITH LOOP 3 connected but draws less current in LOOP 1 by a factor of
2/3! I assume that there is some form of power flowing there that is
non-conventional. I hate that word assumes! But that's the way it
is.
OK, lets get down to the meat of the question. Here is the final
schematic.
Fig. 5.
A couple things should be noted. T-1 is a Bogen T-725 matching
transformer. Many more wires and combinations are available, These
are simply the ones I chose for maximum output and minimum loss in
the motor circuit. Notice all the diodes across L1-B and T-1. I
found that as I increased the diode count, the current in the loop
went up until I reached about 10 diodes then it leveled off.
Anything to increase the internal loop current. I have found that
the 10 UF cap across the FWBR is not needed and tends to slow down
the loop control. It works just fine without it. P-1 and P-2 are
10K 10 turn pots. I think P1 is about 2.2 K but that is just a guess
right now. Lower the resistance to start motor, increase as far as
possible to lower current in loop 1 while still maintaining RPM's.
P2 can be set anywhere from a dead short to 10 K, 2-3 K seems best
for positive charging in loop. To effectively monitor the battery,
you have to be able to measure 1-mv changes in the system. Without
that, you are in the dark. P-2 does not seem to effect motor speed
except when connected back to battery Positive then magic happens!
Its really simple, the devil is in the details. All diodes are
1N4007's single transistor, what more can I say.
I'm going to watch American Idol now.....I'm gone.
Enjoy
Ben
Here are a few more pics from Ben.
Some more pics from Ben:
Here is Ben?s latest video:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=5986403550740943376 (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=5986403550740943376)
Here seems to be the latest one which gets overunity:
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-223879493347270061 (http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-223879493347270061)
Hi guys,
Ben's design is fantastic. Not only does this appear to work, Ben has also supplied evrything one would need to replicate this - video, schematics, parts list, scope shots, meter readings, pictures and detailed instructions.
I for one will be trying to build one of these in the near future.
This may be my first post on this forum, but definitely not my last.
Keep thinking outside the square...
gandalf
Arg!
The suspense is killing me. How many people need to reproduce this before we have a general consensus that something's happening here?
Is there anything I can do to help?
I can model in 3D and produce something akin to animated technical illustrations.
Here are a few demos.
Steorn display (theoretical) (http://marunchak.co.uk/Steorn/Demo.html)
OU Device (this thread) (http://marunchak.co.uk/Steorn/OU.html) - banged together in a few minutes.
I'll work for free as long as it involves getting this out to people.
Guys!!!! get ready to MASS DISTRIBUTE this as OPEN SOURCE TECHNOLOGY!
As soon as this technology is confirmed in replications!
:)
Peace
Hi
Ok i have sussed the windings out.
The coils are made of 2 seperate windings that go either side of the bearing rod.
The main coil is in Parralel
the other 2 are in series.
trigger 387 feet but series coils would be 193 feet per coil
main Coil 12.5 Ohms each coil but in parralel =6.26 ohms
So Mike was right the first time his main coil is 6 Ohms.
My calculations are based on him saying his generator coils was about 40 Ohms
The picture makes it look like all coils are in Paralel but it is only the Main Coil and it shows because he has soldered the twisted ends as they go under the terminal.
Peter
.
Although, we need that car battery out of the picture. ;D
Battery OK for now. Gotta crawl before we can walk ;D
Quote from: Peterae on March 08, 2007, 06:21:28 AM
Hi
Ok i have sussed the windings out.
The coils are made of 2 seperate windings that go either side of the bearing rod.
The main coil is in Parralel
the other 2 are in series.
trigger 387 feet but series coils would be 193 feet per coil
main Coil 12.5 Ohms each coil but in parralel =6.26 ohms
So Mike was right the first time his main coil is 6 Ohms.
My calculations are based on him saying his generator coils was about 40 Ohms
The picture makes it look like all coils are in Paralel but it is only the Main Coil and it shows because he has soldered the twisted ends as they go under the terminal.
Peter
Hi Petrae
What you are saying is very interesting. Would you be able to elaborate or produce a sketch on how the coils would be connected in series and parallel within the circuit? I think my coil resistance might be too high at approx 150 ohms each.
I added a 10K variable resistor to each coil in turn to see what effect it would have on the motor performance. Coils 1 and 2 performed worse with higher resistance and were getting increasingly better as I was winding it down. I would have liked to be able to wind it down to below 150 ohms, to see if it would keep improving.
Although, when I placed the variable resistor between Coil 3 and the bridge rectifier the motor sped up and the capacitor voltage showed a slight increase. I have now replaced the variable with a 3.3K resistor.
For anyone who is still interested, the two 1.2v rechargeables finally gave up after running the motor for a total of 173 hours. The voltage was down to 2.28v.
I?ve ordered the Crouzet relay now and can?t wait to start playing with that.
Cheers
SPP-48
QuoteI?ve ordered the Crouzet relay now and can?t wait to start playing with that.
SPP-48,
If you look at Mike's video closeup of the dual ssr, you will see something odd...the 2 connections made on the ssr are not correct.
On both single and dual ssr's, the switch contacts are on the ends of the device where the "D" notches are. In Mike's video, he has connected to one terminal of SWA, and one terminal of SWB. Since the other two terminals are not connected, there is no way he is switching anything through this relay.
Darren
PS. Someone correct me if I am wrong please. I have checked the spec sheets for these relays. In the pic of Mikes setup with the new relay, it appears to be connected correctly.
Mike is not using a new style relay. His SSR in the video is hooked up wrong. Look very close at how new relays look compared to Mikes. It's easy to see.
Is there anyone here still interested in Mike's motor???
By the lack of activity, it seems to have died. I guess I'll stop posting then.
Darren
Hi All,
here are very encouraging reports of user EMdevices.
from user EMdevices
Re:The Bedini - Cole Window Motor - 2007/03/06 00:45
Hi everyone,
I took a photo for your enjoyment
1000 RPM running from 3.5 volts, current draw around 0.35 Amps.
Generator function is not yet fully connected
I'm only using motor pulse recycling (see diode)
The circuit is very simple as you can see, only one transistor and diode!! Mike could of done the same thing.
When I connect my generator function, OFF OF THE TRIGGER WINDING, all I'm adding will be the rectifier bridge!!!
The only reason for the 3 transistors in the original John Cole circuit was to work with 2 windings, but if more are used, there's no need for 3.
Also note I separated my trigger from motor pulse, no need to have them together, interactions develop and feedback that is not necessary, better to keep the functions separate.
But most importantly, NO NEED FOR HUGE WASTE OF WIRE. lol Theres a 'N' and a 'S' pole right next to each other, why go around to the other side and waste wire?
My bearings are very lossy. If I disconnect the power it stops in about 4 seconds, Once I hook up to new bearings I'm ready for "loop closure"
I'll post a complete circuit soon.
EM
And the wonderful simple circuit.
Resistance, number of loops, have the biggest influence on the opperating point of this Generator and Motor, in one unit.
Where the two forces from the Generator and Motor are equal, we have the operating point. It can be controlled very precisely, ASSUMING ONE KNOWS HOW TO DO THE ANALYSIS. I might show that one of these days.
That's right Rich, I have an inline resistor you can't see in the coil
In my previous posting with the motor I said I don't have the generator function FULLY implemented.
Two Generator functions exist.
1) The pulse to the coil to attract a pole, has current in an inductor and when the transistor shuts off this is captured back. I use this in the picture, the diode is there.
2) The generator coil acts like any old generator. This is captured from my trigger coil (plays a double role) and this flows through the rectifier bridge, NOT SHOW in the photo, so you're correct.
EM
P.S. I connected the generator function and pulled the POWER, and it struggled for about 20 seconds and then rapidly died, SO I'M SO FREAKING CLOSE, THOSE DAM BEARINGS GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Another photo with motor stoped showing the magnets.
By the way, the RPM is about 1200 running off of only 3.5 volts (previously I mentioned 1000)
It spins and roars like a little devil
I need to start looking for those jewel bearings, good idea Rich.
EM
Hi Ben,
very good mention of those other losses. (diodes, transistor, etc..) Right now my biggest power drainer is the BEARINGS, because ....
I did tests and I can get a backEMF recycling efficinecy of about 90%
I used the same coil in a Blocking Oscillator configuration to do DC2DC conversion. Works wonderful!!!
AND IN MY MOTOR, I PULSE AT THE CORRECT TIME (ANGLE) WHEN THERE IS NO VOLTAGE INDUCED FROM ROTOR MOTION. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SO I'M NOT DUMPING POWER INTO A backEMF VOLTAGE (backEMF produced or induced by magnet motion).
THIS IS THE SECRET TO ALL THESE MOTORS, I SPOTED THAT FROM MIKES SCOPES A WHILE AGO, BUT WAITED TO SEE IF ANYBODY PICKED UP ON THAT, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE ONLY TAO, was on it with his JNL posting. Good for you tao, you sharp guy, when this is all over we'll have to toast!!.
So yes, this was my first atempt. Now I'm redesigning. New bearings and .... <drum roll>..... Neodymium Magnets !! I know I know, I said before not to use them, but you have to know why and how, and I know that. Stronger magnets allow for smaller loops and LESS RESISTANCE LOSS, at a particular speed. Way more efficient. The bedini cole circuit suffered because that resistor and diode arangement burned so much power like Peter pointed out and like I also mentioned early on in this madness
Keep up the enthusiasm guys !!!! The site is back as well, thanks Rich, had me worried there for a few days.
EM
P.S. Oh, you mentioned air losses, yes very good point, I need to put some tape over the magnets to minimize that as well. I don't have a good feel for how significant these losses are right now. Also, the generator coil WILL SLOW DOWN THE ROTOR, that's given, but HOW MUCH? There is a curve where the voltage drop due to drop in speed causes equilibrium, and that's where it will operate. Another way to control how much generator function is applied is to do what Mike did, with a hall sensor and switch and only turn the generator coil on for a small fraction of one revolution, sort of like a generator duty cycle. But if one does the analysis ahead of time they can find the operating point.
Ok, here's a curve showing the current in an inductor when we apply a set voltage. Most of you know this already, so bear with me.
What's important in efficiency is to operate in the bottom or linear region, before the current gets too high and the resistance of the windings start to drop the voltage "too much" which is arbitrary and plays into efficiency of DC2DC converters etc..
Just thought it might help, in the balancing act, like John said. We're walking the fence line here folks, carefull not to fall, ahhhhhhh, wowwww..
take care guys,
I'm going silent for a while, very busy at work, and I got this new motor to redesign.
EM
Gentlemen,
One more posting before I go away for a while.
Thanks Rob for the Bearing suggestion, it was you who suggested that first I belive. I shall see if I can get a hold of a meter.
Here's one drawing that will help everyone understand.
TOO MUCH GENERATOR ACTION AND IT WILL NOT WORK.
Look at the graph. I also modifyed my original circuit slightly and made it be only a HALF WAVE BRIDGE rectifier. Cuts the generator action by half and lowers the slope of the generator curve. If that's not enough for a set of coil parameters, we can also implement a switch and hall sensor arangement where we turn the generator ON FOR AN EVEN SHORTER TIME PERIOD LIKE MIKE DID.
By the way, this is not the only curve one can draw for a motor, there's other considerations like efficiency of coils, duration of pulse, etc.. This is just to give everyone a general visual idea of what we're working with.
Hope that helps everyone,
Sincerely,
EM
P.S. Please keep these drawings and circuits here at gn0sis.com Much appreciated!!
Also, I should add, if the generator curve is too low, it will not charge the capacitor fast enough and the voltage will drop, AND THE TORQUE CURVE WILL SHIFT DOWN. So this is a very fine balance or narrow window. One thing effects another. But there is a sweet spot. Most important, get the motor to work as efficiently as possible and to recyle it's pulses, maybe at 90% efficinecy or higher. Then play with the generator curve, and also minimize friction wherever possible. And of course timing plays a big part, which is where the secret is at
P.S: user EMdevices gave me permission to copy it over to here.
He will shorlty add a bigger documentation of it all.
@Darren,
please keep at it and keep us updated on your progress,
Many thanks.
Hi Spp
Mike said
I use (28 gauge .0126 in. main)
(30 gauge .010 in. trigger, generator)
I get a little over 40 ohms each
So
28 Gauge @ 6.49000 Ohms per 100 ft or 30 swg
30 Gauge @ 10.32 Ohms per 100 ft or 33 swg
mike had 40 Ohms for Trig and Gen coil 40 Ohms / 10.32 = 387 Feet of wire
but mike used 2 coils to get this in series so each coil was 193 Feet
so to work out resistance of main coil 1.93 Feet * 6.49 = 12.52 Ohms
but he has 2 of these in Paralel which gives 6.26 Ohms main winding.
Note Mike used Awg here in the uk we use Swg
so in the uk instead of 28 Awg we need 30 Swg
and 30 Awg we need 33 Swg
So to make mikes coil
you wind 2 seperated coils as follows
get 2 strands of 30 Awg 193 Feet long and 1 strand of 28Awg hold 3 ends
in a vice and use a drill to twine these tightly, this gives us a trifler wound length
of wire.
Now make another exactly the same.
1 coil lays one side of the Armeature spindle and the other coil the other side.
use Insulation tape to bind together.as in Mikes picture.
Connect the 2 main windings in parralel and solder the ends
Connect the 2 generator coils in series
connect the 2 Trigger coils in series.
Thats it done.
QuoteIs there anyone here still interested in Mike's motor???
By the lack of activity, it seems to have died. I guess I'll stop posting then.
Darren
Darren,
I have a lot of parts and wire and I'm trying to get a sense of direction before I start winding coils. The activity does seem to have died somewhat.
I don't know whether to try to copy Mike's motor or to evaluate what makes sense from his design and do something a little different. That is why your simulation is so interesting to me. It can provide quite a bit of direction which saves a lot of scrap wire and parts.
I am going to start on a project in the near future, but I don't know exactly what its going to look like. I'm trying to evaluate what is working and not working for people, and cut through the chaff to find the wheat, so to speak.
DB
DB,
I agree about modeling something if possible is a great way to learn, discover, and work out some kinks for a design before building it. Thuis is especially true if details are shaky as seems to be the case here.
That is why I have ventured to try modeling this motor first before I decide to build it. Of course there are limitations to this approach, and some things will only be determined by testing a real device. Nonetheless, it has been interesting so far, and I still have a few things to post. It would be nice however to get a little more feedback at times. I usually do not post unless I have something I feel is significant to discuss or present. The ssr connection in Mike's video is a good example, yet no one challenged me nor agreed with me.
If enough people agreed, or disagreed, this in itself could be all that is necessary to make one decide if the motor is a fake or not. It would just be nice to get a concensus one way or the other, or at least discuss it.
Will post something shortly.
Darren
PS. DB, good to know you're still interested in the motor, and curious about my work.
From observing Mike's video, it looks like the cap charges from 0V to about 5 volts in about 12 or 13 seconds.
The best I could do with my circuit was about 1.93 volts in 10 seconds. See my attached pics ("mine_10s.jpg", and "bcwm02.jpg"). My circuit utilizes 2 diodes (D2 & D7) in the "normal" way to capture the bemf from L2.
I have isolated the capacitor just so I can compare charging with different circuit changes.
Look at my drawing "bcwm01.jpg". This is close to Mike's original, but I have shorted out the switch S1. Now see the charging curve of the cap...pic "Mikes_10s_S1short.jpg". One or two more seconds and I'm sure the cap voltage would be very close to what Mike's achieved in his video.
That's a very fast charge by comparison to anything else, but don't get too excited about this because the cap is charging mainly via two mechanisms, 1) from the battery->Q3-C path, and 2) from the generator action of L2. Agreed?
Anyway, it gives a good insight into roughly what the fastest possible charging of the cap can be.
Darren
To All Relay seekers
If you looking for a solid state relay check out this fantastic device from International Rectifier
This device offers far lower loss (both input and output) than the Crouzet or Gordos relays discussed in our forum, and should make overunity easier to find. Once you read the data sheet, you will understand why the others are obsolete! Good luck everyone!
Derrick
Data sheet: http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/pvn012apbf.pdf
Specification summary:
50 Milli ohm on resisistance (lower than many mechanical switches!)
4000 volt isolation
4 amps max continous load AC or DC (8 amp pulse)
Requires only 5 ma turn on current (behaving like small LED)
Cost is approximatly $5 US
Quote from: derricka on March 09, 2007, 02:15:21 AM
Data sheet: http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/pvn012apbf.pdf
Specification summary:
50 Milli ohm on resisistance (lower than many mechanical switches!)
4000 volt isolation
4 amps max continous load AC or DC (8 amp pulse)
Requires only 5 ma turn on current (behaving like small LED)
Cost is approximatly $5 US
Hi Derrick,
I agree, this photovoltaic relay is a very useful-looking switch for many places but I do not think this is the best or one of the best switches for the windows motor. Why?
Its biggest drawback is the output voltage range is +/- 20V DC or AC peak voltage which is way too low for inductive switchers. Here we must have some hundred volts switching capability at least.
Another drawback ( though at low rotor RPMs it is tolarable ) is its low switching speed: see the 3 mili_sec turn-on and 0.5 mili_sec turn-off time.
A member here, fesearcher posted a solid state switch circuit, see this file solid_state.pdf at this same thread here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1988.msg24204.html#msg24204
which I consider one of the best and (cheap) solution to this problem. It is true its driving circuit needs an extra CMOS integrated circuit but offers much higher switching voltage capability (actually you can decide the MOSFET types for your needs!) and can be much faster than the photovoltaic switch.
Regards
Gyula
Hi gyulasun,
You are correct about the switching voltage, so for motor designs needing to handle high back EMF, I too would choose a different version (International Rectifier does offer versions of this relay going up to 400 volts, tradeoff is higher on resistance). As for the switching, speed I also agree it is slow compared to a MOSFET but plently fast for testing most of the motors being built here (certainly mine anyway). I just love them because they are so easy to use! Speaking of MOSFETs, do you think some of these circuit designs would benefit from using them instead of the bipolar transistors currently being used.? I know there are some tradeoffs here too, but I have always used MOSFETs for my PWM electric helicopter motors and always find them preferable to bipolar transistors.
Derrick
Quote from: Peterae on March 08, 2007, 05:20:22 PM
1 coil lays one side of the Armeature spindle and the other coil the other side.
use Insulation tape to bind together.as in Mikes picture.
Connect the 2 main windings in parralel and solder the ends
Connect the 2 generator coils in series
connect the 2 Trigger coils in series.
Thats it done.
Hi Peterae
It looks like I may have missed something major. I never realised that Mike used 2 separate lots of coils. I went back to the first post on this thread and looking at the photos of Mike's motor again, you are right. It does look like two coils side by side.
Many thanks
SPP-48
Quote from: derricka on March 09, 2007, 06:07:10 AM
Hi gyulasun,
You are correct about the switching voltage, so for motor designs needing to handle high back EMF, I too would choose a different version (International Rectifier does offer versions of this relay going up to 400 volts, tradeoff is higher on resistance). As for the switching, speed I also agree it is slow compared to a MOSFET but plently fast for testing most of the motors being built here (certainly mine anyway). I just love them because they are so easy to use! Speaking of MOSFETs, do you think some of these circuit designs would benefit from using them instead of the bipolar transistors currently being used.? I know there are some tradeoffs here too, but I have always used MOSFETs for my PWM electric helicopter motors and always find them preferable to bipolar transistors.
Derrick
Hi Derrick,
Well, the question is I think how closely can you make a solid state switch to a conventional mechanical switch? (current, breakdown voltage, speed, isolation resistance the main requirements) .
MOSFETs are good but suffer from the inherent body diode between its drain and source electrodes, this sometimes is good to have but in most of the cases a big drawback. Also, MOSFETs have a big input and output capacitances that increase input drive need and may contribute to poor switch-off isolation.
Regarding bipolar transistors, basically they are also useful switchers and I do not think they should ALWAYS be replaced by MOSFEts. It all depends on the application: what is to be switched? This may sound way to simple but it certainly needs practical experience what to choose. I think in the window motor case here the 3 bipolar transistors reflect back the state of the art of the 80's and surely perform fine. It is another question for instance if you wish to use Neo magnets instead of the ceramic ones, the induced voltages may be increased so those bipolar types need revising to withstand higher voltages than the present ones. And regarding Mike's solid state relay, the circuit from fesearcher here is a perfect substitute I think.
Yes I understand IR have photovoltaic relays for 400V and they are very convenient to use. They are also good here instead of the SST.
Thanks,
Gyula
Quote from: SPP-48 on March 09, 2007, 06:10:28 AM
Quote from: Peterae on March 08, 2007, 05:20:22 PM
1 coil lays one side of the Armeature spindle and the other coil the other side.
use Insulation tape to bind together.as in Mikes picture.
Connect the 2 main windings in parralel and solder the ends
Connect the 2 generator coils in series
connect the 2 Trigger coils in series.
Thats it done.
Hi Peterae
It looks like I may have missed something major. I never realised that Mike used 2 separate lots of coils. I went back to the first post on this thread and looking at the photos of Mike's motor again, you are right. It does look like two coils side by side.
Many thanks
SPP-48
SPP-48.
How can you tell for sure? It would be impossible to tell from the two pics we have of his motor. Also, in all the attempted replications of this motor I have seen, they all look like the coils could be two separate coils, but that is because the coil is being split before it goes around the axle, so for about half of one complete winding, the one coil mass will look like two.
Mike said the coils were wound bifilar/trifilar. You should probably stick with that. Also, I wouldn't be assuming anything else regarding the coil construction. He has given the wire sizes and resistances for all 3 coils. Generator and Trigger coils are the same. Any deviation from that and the chances of successful replication deminish accordingly.
Darren
QuoteFrom observing Mike's video, it looks like the cap charges from 0V to about 5 volts in about 12 or 13 seconds.
The best I could do with my circuit was about 1.93 volts in 10 seconds. See my attached pics ("mine_10s.jpg", and "bcwm02.jpg"). My circuit utilizes 2 diodes (D2 & D7) in the "normal" way to capture the bemf from L2.
I have isolated the capacitor just so I can compare charging with different circuit changes.
Look at my drawing "bcwm01.jpg". This is close to Mike's original, but I have shorted out the switch S1. Now see the charging curve of the cap...pic "Mikes_10s_S1short.jpg". One or two more seconds and I'm sure the cap voltage would be very close to what Mike's achieved in his video.
That's a very fast charge by comparison to anything else, but don't get too excited about this because the cap is charging mainly via two mechanisms, 1) from the battery->Q3-C path, and 2) from the generator action of L2. Agreed?
Anyway, it gives a good insight into roughly what the fastest possible charging of the cap can be.
Darren
I think this is good information. If anything seems a little out of line in Mike's video it is the charging rate of that capacitor. at 47,000 uF it is hard to believe how fast it charges.
There are a couple of ways to proceed. There seems to be a faction that is trying to reverse engineer exactly what Mike did, and treat it like every detail was critical to the operation of the device. If the exact ssr, or the exact coils, or the exact transistors are really that critical, I don't think I want to build that device.
To believe that each and every component has to be the same to observe "the effect" that we are assuming Mike brought to life, then it is too much of a quirk for me to chase.
I think if this device Mike made "works", then there is or will be an explanation for why it works, and there will be a wide range of ways to reproduce this effect, once it is understood.
I would rather try to understand (by using such analysis as Darren is doing, and other though processes and analysis) what is going on, what is possible by conventional explanations, and how big the gap is between conventional analysis and what is happening in Mike's video.
To that end, Darren's calculations show that conventional analysis of Mike's supposed circuit would probably not charge the capacitor as fast as the video shows. The gap between conventional analysis and Mike's video is probably a factor of at least two in the charging time of the capacitor. Thus we have to realize going in that a device will have to gain enough charge from somewhere to make up this difference.
Before I build, I would also like to have some idea of where the excess might come from. I'm not asking for proof or a complete understanding before I start winding coils, but I want to have some speculations as to what is going on. For that reason I am studying the Naudin, Bedini, and other information for theories on what might be happening.
Another analysis that I think is worthwhile is some basic calculations on what kind of power we want to see to claim anything useful is happening. To put things into perspective, it is easy for the average person to believe that a clock can run for a year or more on one winding, or for numerous years on one battery. We see this all the time. When we see a small motor running on what we think is a very small amount of power we tend to think some kind of magic is happening.
Just rambling.
DB
Dingbat
The best way i think is to start by replicating and proving Mike design, we dont know what makes it work, but by trying to build something different to find out is not the way to go, what ever caused Mikes to work is something we dont understand, the only way to understand is to play with and modify a working model.im still yet to here anyone who has a coil like Mikes, this could be critical, also the Steel Cupped washers that shield Torodial transformer were used by Mike to shield part of the Magnetic field from his Armeature, i would also think these are intentional, again i am yet to see anyone try these. Mike would have used them for a reason, it may just be his way of centering a plastic tube to mount the magnets on, but we dont know.Also there is clearance from the magnets to the disk washers is this critical to let flux bleed from the inner poles of the magnets.I can go on.
My point if you are going to prove Mikes design dont build something different.
All,
I want to say one thing here:
I am not trying to prove Mike's motor is a fake. On the contrary, I am hoping to discover the mechanism that would permit the operation we see in his video.
However, in light of seeing that the ssr in the video does not appear to be connected in such a way to achieve switching, AND noting the high rate of charge on his capacitor (as if S1 is shorted), one can't help but suspect there may be some fakery going on there.
I hope I'm wrong.
Darren
QuoteI think if this device Mike made "works", then there is or will be an explanation for why it works, and there will be a wide range of ways to reproduce this effect, once it is understood.
Absolutely! DB
The key phrase being "once it is understood". I think the best way to achieve understanding is to try as best as one can to copy the original.
If you build something different and don't achieve any "effect", how will you know if it is because there is no "effect" at all, or if it is because your build is not the same as the original?
In my humble opinion, the only detail we are really missing with Mike's motor is the exact transistor types he used. We do know the approximate size and therefore rating of them though, and that is why I have chosen the TIP33/34.
I'm not sure if the washers have any effect on his motor (I don't even see them), but there is another detail that most are missing, and that is that Mike's coil mass is wider than it is high....meaning it is more rectangular than it is square. Everyone seems to be making their coils more or less square.
Has anyone also noticed that he appears to be using two stacked magnets for each magnet?
Darren
hi all i am new to this site
it seems quite interesting all the different modles you have made
i have decided to give this a go also
i am an electrical fitter with 21 years in the motor winding industry
i have access to many machines and parts
i have my own lab which i studdy free energy
i will be posting pics of my divice so you can see my progress also
wish me luck as i wish every one the best
thanks
warren
Go for it Warren, and welcome!
Looking forward to seeing your motor.
Darren
Welcome, Warren. I have a lot of experience in the motor manufacturing equipment field. There are numerous manufacturers of motor winding equipment where I live. Did you work in the winding equipment field, or actually manufacturing motors?
Quotebut there is another detail that most are missing, and that is that Mike's coil mass is wider than it is high....meaning it is more rectangular than it is square. Everyone seems to be making their coils more or less square.
If you study the Naudin stuff that was posted on gn0sis.com, you can't help but conclude that there are far better strategies for how to shape the coils (my opinion).
I'm sorry, but I just don't think Mike actually knew what he was doing to the degree that everyone seems to think. Numerous people have replicated the Bedini/Cole window motor and reported various degrees of success, and a concensus that strange things happen with the arrangement.
Hello All
I would like to learn more from you.
Therfore i like to diskuss about the Theorie,to extrakt energie out of a selfpowering
generator,like we are all searching for.
I think:
If a cylinder with Magnets on the Surface is a Rotor on a Rod,that can spinn on a mount and ist framed with a aircoil. It is a basic Setup.
It is the same,as mike was doing.
Whether there are 2,4,6,10 Magnets on the Rotor dosend matter. As long as the coil generates a field,that makes the Rotor turning with a extern Power Supply.
And if i wind 6 more Coils to the Frame,it does not matter,as long as the operation with a singel coil is able to run the Motor.
So i get the idea,that the outgoing electricity out of the other 2,4,6 Magnets are free of charge.
According to the Number of windings there will be more or less voltage.
And if i imagine,that there is Space for more Frames ,than there is more abilitis to extrakt Electricity out via a Framecoil-arrangement. why not?
Just see the Rotoverter konstruction--in my Mind it is the same Story.
What do you think about this?
Regards from Duisburg
Helmut
Hi Helmut
Very interesting idea, if we prove Mikes system works, we maybe able to increase the net power in the rotor by about 10-15 times by doing that and off course increase generation vy 10 - 15 times.
Hi sharp & clever builders/experimenters/theoreticians
I'm very impressed by the high level of some of your posts.
Anyway, I'm slowly going on with my small replication.
L1 and L2 coils are interwoven (bifilar) and square shaped. (wound on a 10 cm * 10 cm cardboard frame).
L1 is 0.250 m/m diam and 84 ohms.
L2 is 0.315 m/m diam and 54 ohms.
L3 is 0.315 m/M diam and 59 ohms.
Too much?
The rotor is made of 6 N/S/NS/... ferrite magnets.
Should you be interested in, more pictures can be seen at :
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/ (http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/)
Best
Picture of L3 and Rotor:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffreenrg.info%2FWindow_Motor%2FRotor_and_Coil3.jpg&hash=c0c8cec0408e3b4e4b70e734281f3f226cc816b2)
NerzhDishual
Great Stuff Good Luck, i wish all my bits would arrive so i can get on.
Hi guys,
is this motor thing a modified compulsator, sounds a bit similar.
i think. tell me to 'trot on' if i'm way off. :-)
i would like to say thanks to darren and dingbat for there welcome
he is a few answers to dingbats questions
i have worked in many fields of motor rewinding
repairs to re-design to manufactoring motors
as i see the window motor at the moment
i think no one has taken the thought of the air gap which will make the motor
more effecent
the air gap is the distance between the magnet and the coil the closer the magnet passes the coil the more inductance the generator winding will get and you should be able to see more torque from the main winding driving the rotor
i am going to try fanning my coils a bit so the thickness is reduced the coil will seem wider but not so tall i will only fan it out across an inch or 25cm
the air gap i am going to try for will be about 2mm
i am going to uses the neodium n45 magnets i can buy them of ebay
my rotor shaft and rotor which will hold my magnets will be made of stainless steel
i will use sealed ball bearings to hold the rotor
all parts i will use will be non magnetic except the magnets them selves
well thats what i have in mind so far
i better get started
warren
Hi Warren
I would be carefull how much you fan out the coil as you need to remeber that the trigger coil is exactly that, and it relies on a crisp spike to trigger the drive transistor, also did you notice the steel washers either side of Mikes magnets, if so how do you think these would effect the flux path.
Good Luck.
ok guys here is some pics of my progress so far
hi peterae i am only spaning my coils about 1 inch
i am only going on what i have learnt through experiance
washers on rotors are used to balance the rotor
but making the air gap big is not a good thing
maybe i am making a mistake but i will test my coils as soon as i can
i am waiting on the magnets to come from ebay it may take 10 days to arrive
tommorrow i will get my electronic components from radio spares and build
the board
ps i am buying a crow i am not used to useing one so if any one can help it
would be great
hi Warren
Looks good, good luck, waiting for parts is really annoying, i am waiting on wire and varoius bits of hardware , and a day off which will be monday, i have my electronic components now, i got a nice 33,000 uf 63 volt cap from ebay which arrived yesterday, its big 76 diameter and 115mm height.Also with my explanation of mikes coils, i now see his confusion with the main resistance as i also got confused, he is using the thicker wire 6 Ohm coil as the Generator coil, and the 2 40 Ohm windings for main and trigger.
What do you have planed for your windings.
Peter
Warren
The washers i mean are 7cm diameter either side of his armeature.hes not using them to balace the rotor, take a look at the picture.
Quotehe is using the thicker wire 6 Ohm coil as the Generator coil, and the 2 40 Ohm windings for main and trigger.
Guys,
This is not correct. Read what Mike has said about the coils, and look at the scope shots. Start with what was given, anything else is a waste of time.
It is plain to see that the Generator and Trigger coils have nearly the same number of windings or turns. If the Gen coil was 6 Ohms, and the Trig coil 40 Ohms, there is no way these two voltages would be so close as shown in the scope shot.
Darren
are the washers maybe used as a shield from the bearings?...maybe sheild the other poles of magnets to prevent cancellation??
If you look at the picture the winding that goes to the bridge is thicker than the other 2 coils. and it appears to be made of two individual windings as you see the ends have been soldered before they go under the screw terminal.Bearing in mind that all 3 wires are Trifilar wound they are all the same length ,the only way to alter the length is to parralel and series each coil half appropiatley to change the resistance.
The Generator has to have a lower Ohmage than the other 2 coils because it a thicker Guage wire.
McGiver
It could be that the 7cm washers were there to shield, once i get all my bits i will try to see why they are there, i also notice that the magnets are closer to the right side of the washers.
this is the pic of mikes motor i have
it looks like the washers are a part of a wire reel or something he
has used to hold his magnets
i dont think there is any need to worry about this
may be a large washer acting as a flywheel would make sence
a fly wheel would help the rotor spin evenly
thanks
warren
Quote from: Peterae on March 10, 2007, 07:54:15 AM
If you look at the picture the winding that goes to the bridge is thicker than the other 2 coils. and it appears to be made of two individual windings as you see the ends have been soldered before they go under the screw terminal.Bearing in mind that all 3 wires are Trifilar wound they are all the same length ,the only way to alter the length is to parralel and series each coil half appropiatley to change the resistance.
The Generator has to have a lower Ohmage than the other 2 coils because it a thicker Guage wire.
So you are suggesting then that there are 4 coils, as there are 4 "ends" per side? Two ends are soldered together on each side.
btw, Mike said he wound trifilar, and that the Main (28 AWG) winding is longer.
My intepretation of that is he started with 3 wires, 2 @ 30 AWG, and 1 @ 28 AWG, and wound trifilar. At some point about half way through (258 turns by my calculation), he stopped with the 2@ 30 AWG and continued with the 28 AWG (Main) until he had about 473 turns with that wire alone.
This is what I have done with my model, and the waveforms seem to jive well. What do
your waveforms look like?
Darren
Hi z_p_e
No only 2 coils, each coil has 3 wires, The thick wire is soldered at the terminals suggesting it consists of 2 parralel wires.if you look at the cross section view of his coils in between the insulation tape there is no sign of any wire that is not Trifilar wound, doesnt mean im right, but i think it makes sense.What do you make of the Generator coil being thicker wire.
I know Mike said the main coil was 28 guage which would mean the thicker coil is the Main winding, but in the picture the thicker wire is connected to the Bridge, so Mike is saying something different to the construction in the Picture.Do you agree.?
What I meant to say Peter was 4 windings total. I guess it's easy to get "coil" and "winding" mixed up.
So now you are saying there are 6 windings in total? 2 coils with 3 windings each is what you have said. That is 6 windings total.
Now this is getting confusing.
Darren
PS. It does appear that the winding or windings going to the FWB are heavier gauge and/or two soldered together, however, one can not be absolutely certain because it is impossible to trace exactly where all the wires are leading in the pic.
Even if they are two parallel gen windings, how does that account for a nearly equal voltage to the Trig winding?
There is an earlier picture than you have without the SSR wired it clearly shows the bridge connected using crimp spade terminals to the 2 large wire connections.
If you look at your picture look at the gap between the wires where the axial runs there is a winding to the left and a winding to the right, now follow these down along the bottom you will see there are still 2 windings wound in black insulation tape.
The voltage that appears across a winding will be dependent on the load of that coil, if its open circuit it will be large, if it has 1ohm across it will be small, therfore the voltage on the scope will only show how much that coil has been loaded and driven at the same time.
LOL
Definition of Winding :Turns of wire around the core of the transformer
Definition of Coil : A length of wire wound around a form in multiple turns
Peter,
Could you please attach this picture so we can see what you're talking about?
Thanks,
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on March 10, 2007, 10:07:32 AM
Peter,
Could you please attach this picture or pictures so we can see what you're talking about?
Thanks,
Darren
Heres the picture
Something that is also interesting about this picture is if you look at the Power terminals on the breadboard there are 2 wires 1 red and other black going under the board as if to a battery.But this circuit layout was only meant to prove it worked with a battery anyway.He later added the ssr circuit.
Quote from: war123ren on March 10, 2007, 08:13:26 AM
this is the pic of mikes motor i have
it looks like the washers are a part of a wire reel or something he
has used to hold his magnets
i dont think there is any need to worry about this
may be a large washer acting as a flywheel would make sence
a fly wheel would help the rotor spin evenly
thanks
warren
Hi Warren,
The photo of mikes motor you just posted seems to have a couple of
donut magnets on the shaft as a flywheel with disks in-between.
It looks like a cylinder homopolar type of setup ?
without being connected though.
Check nmchcy11,12 gifs on this page,
http://lists.nau.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0206&L=phys-l&D=0&P=16657
ok, maybe if you read this, instead of the output being used for 'work' it gets fed back to running the motor...........
A compulsator is the short name for a compensated pulsed alternator, a form of power supply. As the name suggests, it is an alternator that is "compensated" (see below) to make it better at delivering pulses of electrical energy than a normal alternator.
The principle is very similar to an alternator, except that the rotor is usually kept spinning by its inertia (having been "spun up" by an external motor, or the compulsator itself having been used in reverse as an AC motor) and the small matter of the "compensation". The compulsator is used like a capacitor, to gather energy from a low-power source and store it, then generate a high-power output for a short period.
The windings of a compulsator are different from those of a normal alternator in that they are designed for minimal inductance. This allows the current in the windings to change very rapidly, which is why this "compensation" makes it better at delivering pulses.
The kinetic energy of a rotating object depends on the mass of the object, the shape of the object, and the square of the speed of rotation. Therefore, compulsators tend to have very light rotors that spin very fast in order to store the most energy in the available mass, and because too much mass in the rotor causes problems with the magnitude of centripetal force required to prevent the rotor from flying apart.
Compulsators are popular choices for high-end railgun power supplies. One possibility being considered is to build an electric tank that uses a conventional diesel engine for propulsion and to charge a compulsator. The compulsator would be used to power a railgun, and potentially other pulsed energy weapons (particularly electronic warfare systems); also, the compulsator could be used in non-pulsed mode to drive the tank with electric motors for limited periods as a kind of "quiet mode", which could be useful in urban combat.
OK I've gone back and done a re-examination of all the info and pics.
It appears that there is perhaps an error in what Mike told us, but my findings are not in agreement with Peter's.
Have a look at the attached pic. I've annotated it with references. It looks to me what Mike did when winding the coil-mass, was to solder all 3 wires together at one end before he started to wind. Then when he finished, the 3 wires were again separated, as evidenced by the residual solder that can be seen in the pic on two of the 3 wires on the left side (zoom in real well). The Gen+ wire looks twisted, but that is just remnants from when all 3 were twisted together.
If you look at the 3 wires to the right side, you can see that the Gen- wire is in fact the same size as the Main- wire, and that is a 28 AWG.
Mike told us the Trig and Gen wires were both 30 AWG, but that does not seem correct according to the picture.
I have analysed the motor and determined that the coil-mass dimensions are very close to:
w= 4.6"
h= 4.4"
so one complete loop ~ 18" or 1.5'
From this I have recalculated the Main inductance value. Using the voltage amplitude ratios from the sine scope shots, I then figured out the Trig and Gen inductances. They are very close, but now the Gen winding is with no. 28 wire, so its resistance is about half.
By analysing the D2 scope shot of Mike's, and extracting and analysing the audio from his video, I was able to determine that his motor is running at somewhere between 342 and 382 RPMs. I have chosen 345 for the rest of my analysis.
So, bottom line is there appear to be 3 windings, one of 30 AWG, and two of 28 AWG wire.
Darren
Hi Darren
Thanks for trying to see what im trying to understand,
The wires as you said look as if they have all been soldered, in this picture, to me it looks like each wire is a twisted pair, but you may be right about them being twisted when wound, then un twisted.
The trouble is now i have no idea of how he got those resistances.
I start construction tommorow, and i need to work these dam coils out.
But the Gen wire on the left looks twice as thick as the gen wire on the right Oh well.
OK OK
I give up.
I am going to make your coil above but what i will do is make 2 sets of coils 240 turns each that way i can use the second coil to play around altering the resistances and will use 1 strand to double L2 to 473 turns.
Have you made your version yet or are you just trying to get the parameters at the moment.
Peter
Quote from: Peterae on March 11, 2007, 06:31:30 AM
Hi Darren
The wires as you said look as if they have all been soldered, in this picture, to me it looks like each wire is a twisted pair.
I am only trying to get to the bottom of what he did.
The trouble is now i have no idea of how he got those resistances.
I start construction tommorow, and i need to work these dam coils out.
Help in this picture it looks like the Trigger coil is thinner.
But the Gen wire on the left looks twice as thick as the gen wire on the right
Hi,
If you take a look at the picture posted by war123 on the previous page, zoom in on the wires and then have a look at the edge of one of the cable ties. I think this will explain why you think there are 2 wires. Remember these are pretty low res photos that have also been compressed , so be careful how you interpret them. When you start zooming a photo that has been through a compressor it is not uncommon to find things that are totaly different to the original. I am tending to take more infomation from what Mike said rather than his photos. I believe that Mikes coils are not true trifiler (all 3 twisted together first to form one wire , then wound onto a coil former) , I think he just wound all 3 wires together onto a former without twisting them together first. Of course this is based on zooming into his photos , which contradicts what I just said ;-)
Hope this helps
Cheers
Tony.
Hi Tony
Opps i keep going back and altering what im saying, it seems to change from mineuet to minuet LOL.
Didnt realise you posted after.
I agree in 1 picture the cable ties look Like twisted pairs, but in the photo i just uploaded they dont, and all 3 wire ends look twisted. ?? :(
Because Darren has done such a good analysis i will try building his coil tommorow, Its the only way i will stay Sain :o
QuoteI think he just wound all 3 wires together onto a former without twisting them together first.
Tony,
I agree with you. But it looks like (and makes sense) that he twisted and soldered the one end together so they wouldn't separate or slip while winding.
btw, the wires do not have to be twisted to be considered bifilar or trifilar. As long as they are wound together. They can be wound in parallel rather than twisted to each other too.
Darren
QuoteI am going to make your coil above but what i will do is make 2 sets of coils 240 turns each that way i can use the second coil to play around altering the resistances and will use 1 strand to double L2 to 473 turns.
Peter.
Sounds good. I think you are saying that you are going to wind a quad-filar coil. That is what John Bedini suggested as an easy way to double up the L2 winding, just put them in series when done winding.
I don't know if there is much if any difference compared to winding one continuous L2...anyone?
I doubt that Mike did it this way though, but I suppose there could be a hidden series connection somewhere under the coil tape.
So in summary and to make it easy round numbers (a few turns difference is not critical I think):
L1: 30 AWG, 240 Turns, ~ 40 Ohms
L2: 28 AWG, 480 Turns, ~ 46 Ohms
L3: 28 AWG, 240 Turns, ~ 23 Ohms
Winding Former: 4.6" X 4.4"
Darren
QuoteI am going to make your coil above but what i will do is make 2 sets of coils 240 turns each that way i can use the second coil to play around altering the resistances and will use 1 strand to double L2 to 473 turns.
Peter.
Sounds good. I think you are saying that you are going to wind a quad-filar coil. That is what John Bedini suggested as an easy way to double up the L2 winding, just put them in series when done winding.
I don't know if there is much if any difference compared to winding one continuous L2...anyone?
I doubt that Mike did it this way though, but I suppose there could be a hidden series connection somewhere under the coil tape.
So in summary and to make it easy round numbers (a few turns difference is not critical I think):
L1: 30 AWG, 240 Turns, ~ 40 Ohms
L2: 28 AWG, 480 Turns, ~ 46 Ohms (single-continuous, OR bifilar-series)
L3: 28 AWG, 240 Turns, ~ 23 Ohms
Winding Former: 4.6" X 4.4"
All 3 trifilar, not twisted
Darren
Darren
I think what you mean by Quad-filar is basicaly 3 28 gauage strands and 1 30 gauage strand all together then series the L2 coil, now that is interesting because it would mean that ineffect i have created L2 how Tesla suggested for his Special Bifliar winding
I say im going to wind tommorow, i only get mondays off work, i ordered the dam wire friday, and am praying it will arrive tommorow or it will be another week :(
Hello All
The Question about the bifilar winding causes many more Questions.
But it might be helpfull to read the Books about this matter.
therevor i post a drawing
Helmut
Sorry for the bad pic i try to make it better
Quote from: Peterae on March 11, 2007, 10:12:05 AM
Darren
I think what you mean by Quad-filar is basicaly 3 28 gauage strands and 1 30 gauage strand all together then series the L2 coil, now that is interesting because it would mean that ineffect i have created L2 how Tesla suggested for his Special Bifliar winding
Hi Peter.
Yes that's exactly what I mean. 4 wires quad-filar, two of which (L2a and L2b in series) make up L2 if one wishes to do it this way.
I believe there are advantages to making L2 this way. Did Mike make his this way? One would think that he would have mentioned something about this odd detail, but he did not.
Regards,
Darren
Good luck with your winding, and perhaps you could do me a huge favor after they are wound.....measure the inductance and resistance of each. I'd like to compare that to my calculated values. Thanks, it would be much appreciated.
Hi Darren
I havent got an inductance meter, but i can measure the resistance, unless you no off an easy way to measure inductance.I'm still praying for the post man.
now when i wind the sides that go either side of the axial do i do half the turns one side and the rest of the turns the other side, or alternate left side 1 coil right side 1 coil ect.
I would think 120 left side of axal then 120 right side, of course the top and bottom will be side by side anyway, its just for the parting clearance for the shaft to turn.
Peter
Peter,
I was thinking something like using a low-pass filter made from the coil and a known resistor value.
See http://engr.nmsu.edu/~etti/fall96/electronics/induct/induct.html
I would start with a 10k resistor. You should end up using a frequency of about 7.45kHz. You can just tell me what the "x" value is and I'll crunch it through the equation. Let me know what value of "r" and "R" also to make this calculation possible.
As for winding the coil, I think what I would do is wind the coil-mass on a 4.6" X 4.6" former, then "split" the coil-mass at the sides and feed the axle through. If you are using a threaded bolt, make sure it is taped or heat-shrunk so you don't scar the varnish off any of the windings.
This should give you a "random" splitting of the 3 or 4 windings and therefore average out the coupling among them. Because you've had to split the windings on one side, it will shrink in length somewhat, and hence using 4.6" instead of the desired 4.4".
Hope that all made sense.
Darren
Ok got ya.
No problem.We will see how we go.
Guys,
A quick word about the magnets Mike used.
I believe they are a very common ceramic type, and they have the following dimensions:
3/8" X 7/8" X 1 7/8". Many places sell them (even some hardware stores like Home Depot)... here are a few with the best prices. If you can't find them, there is always Radio Shack, or The Source, but you'll pay double there. Going rate seems to be $1.99 US for 2.
http://www.magnetsource.com/Consumer%20Pages/Ceramic_Mags.html
http://www.allmagnetics.com/craft/ceramic.htm
http://hand-tools.hardwarestore.com/67-414-magnets.aspx
Mike stacked and glued two together to form one magnet, so you will need 12 magnets. It looks like he glued these to a wire spool to form his rotor. This spool looks to be between 1 7/8" and 2" in diameter.
I'm not sure if these are Grade 5 or 8 magnets....hopefully both will work.
There should be enough solid info now to go and build one of these!
Cheers,
Darren
Im in the UK and magnets are like impossible to find, but i have about 50 of a similar shape and size that mike used, that were given to me a year or 2 ago, i have to use them, i have no choice, they are 42mm long 9mm height 16mm wide Ceramic.i have studied Mikes rotor and am going to copy it as best as i can, i will use steel washers either side as he has inside the nuts, i am going to look at a spool of fishing line tommorow to see the size of the spool is correct and see if i can get 1 that will do, i wonce did a lot of fishing and the spools reminded me of what mike used.I have ordered Hall switches, i have an SSR, i used to be a professional Proto type engineer so i am very good at building electronics stuff and very good at fault finding as i have also been a test technician, a tv engineer for 20 years.and am now an art dealer LOL so if it doesnt work i should be able to sell it as abstract art. :)
I got all the Discrete components. All i need is time.
I will see how far i get tommorow, i dont have much test equipment, but i am in the market for a scope and have seen a handheld digital scope on ebay which i might order next week. i dont have a Sine generator for the inductance measurement yet, but i might buy a meter anyway we see.I wont be here during the build as im doing it else where.but will let you know tommorow about this time or a bit earlier.
It all balances on the wire arriving tommorow.
Peter
All Sounds good Peter. The magnets you have are fairly close, so should be ok.
Looking forward to seeing your progress.
For any builders out there that want an L or LC meter, here are a couple I have on my PC. I haven't built these, but they seem ok, especially the LC meter. It's about $99 for the kit.
The one that is just an L meter, is designed to measure only up to 5mH, but I think with some mods, it could go higher. Very simple circuit.
Regards,
Darren
Nice meter, but i dont want to get side tracked at themoment, i tend to build all my test equipment in the past, but looking on ebay i can order a dvm with inductance built in for ?19
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-DIGITAL-20H-LC-INDUCTANCE-CAPACITANCE-METER-LAB_W0QQitemZ150100889130QQihZ005QQcategoryZ4678QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This is what i am looking at on ebay , not sure i think it does inductance somehow as well, i have emailed them to ask
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=47878&image=33099661&images=33099609,33099616,33099632,33099661,33099702,33099757,33099772&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150097578349
Mind you the bandwidth is naff
Peter
Peter,
That VC301 meter doesn't appear to have inductance. See:
http://www.electroniccomponents.globalsources.com/gsol/I/Multimeter/a/9000000082185.htm
I do like the other one at ebay though...I'd go for it....in fact I'm going to see if it phishes from my ebay.ca
Darren
Hi Darren
yer seems cheap enough might take a week or two to come :(
The scope says this underneath
Accessories:
ET-01 double-plastic test lead sets
ET-02A Semiconductor temperature probe
ET-12 LCR test frame,
Notice the LCR test frame, i wonder what that is
Surely it doesnt mean Liquid Crystal Display LOL
Right im off to bed now, i am begining to think i am the only one on here building.
Well,
I just spent $19 GPB, thanks to Peter... ;D
I bought that one for $9.99 GPB, but it's $9 GPB shipping !
Oh well, I've needed one, and you're not going to find one any cheaper than this ;)
Darren
PS. That VC301 is nice, especially if you don't have a scope, but I wouldn't get my expectations too high to use it for this purpose....you might be disappointed.
Quote from: z_p_e on March 11, 2007, 09:35:28 AM
QuoteI think he just wound all 3 wires together onto a former without twisting them together first.
Tony,
I agree with you. But it looks like (and makes sense) that he twisted and soldered the one end together so they wouldn't separate or slip while winding.
btw, the wires do not have to be twisted to be considered bifilar or trifilar. As long as they are wound together. They can be wound in parallel rather than twisted to each other too.
Hi Darren , thanks for clearing that up , I wasn't sure if they needed to be twisted or just wound together. I just came in from winding my coil by twisting the wires together as I went..took me 4hrs. Wish you had told me 4hrs ago that it wasn't necessary to twist them first :-)
Oh well , I am happy that all 3 windings show around 35ohms , so no shorts or breaks hopefully.
I have pushed a piece of brass tube into the gap on each side of the coil , this is to protect the coil wires in case rotor shaft rubs on them. Will this cause me any problems?
Cheers
Tony.
Hi Tony.
Sorry you had already wound your coil...oh well, you'll have tighter coupling and a tighter wound coil-mass than most others. There's no reason to believe that this is a problem though, so hats off to you. Maybe you could send a pic?
Did you wind with the rotor in place, or insert it after as I suggested to Peter? Aside from taking 4 hours, how was it?
I don't think the brass tubing is going to interfere any more than a steel shaft will, and we know Mike used a threaded steel rod.
What size of wire etc?
Darren
I'm asking for help here guys, because I'm confused.
First there is this video from John that seems to verify the window motor can run on its own:
http://video.google.com/url?docid=-8484430750184911575
Then some time later we have John coming back with another video claiming that Mike faked his motor, and that he was cheating by using a hidden battery.
So John has at least 2 videos now showing his window motor running on nothing but a capacitor, yet he says Mike's is a fake.
Could someone clue me in please?
Why aren't we all building John's version of his window motor if it already is a self-runner?
Darren
Hi all
Please pardon my ignorance in these matters. Never having used an oscilloscope before, (I am an architect) I just bought a USB type and have been learning to use it.
I connected it to my motor using the previously posted diagram below.
This is what I got. It looks nothing like Mike?s shots, but It does have some rather large spikes every 3 or so cycles. The motor was running on a 5v battery and the spikes show at 21v on the scope. It didn?t make any difference if the hall sensor and SSR relay were operational or not. (I don?t have the Crouzet yet and was using another SSR).
What does it all mean !!!!!
Cheers
Sam
Dont know if this helps, but mike said 3 magnets in triangle shape for hall sensor, run as a motor with battery, then alter the timing untill very little power is drawn from battery.
Hi Darren
I have asked myself the very same thing, why are we so excited about mike's motor when John Bedini has a worker, Strange really cant tell tell you the answer.
I think John was just saying it could be Faked, i suppose you have to keep an open mind, i for one think Mike did get it working, there are going to be people that dont think that and people that are in the middle, John probably cant work out how it works(with regard to his own)so has doubts as to if it works.
But John has replicated Mike motor and is studying it.
John does not say that his motor runs for ever, just a long time that he has not specified to my knowledge.
Hi SPP
Glad there seems to be other people on here replicating, i will wait untill i get mine working so i can see whats happening, where did you get the scope and are you happy with it.
Nice job you got there, your motor should structurley be very sound ,have you put any steeples on it :)
Hoppy
21 years seem like a while to me.think it used batterys tho.im not an expert on Johns stuff.
i'm more worried about why Mike dissapeared, was it because too many questions were being asked, or some other reason, you do hear some nasty stories of people vanishing, being arrested ect, but Mike deliberatley said his was not OU and i feel it would be a bad idea to admit such a thing as well.
The only thing that gives me hope is the fact that hidden behind Mike's motor you can see the time and reasearch he had done to get this far.
We are having trouble getting upto speed even with his documentation.
Maybe Mike is just waiting for people to get upto speed, and then a magic appearance to help debug.
@SPP-48:
I painted and verticaly inverted your scope shot.
The part above red line is the energy that you put into sytem and the part below is the energy that you get out of the sistem. This is the part that charges your batteries.
I would say that you have achieved something great.
WOW
your wrote:
>I would say that you have achieved something great.
Hey, slow down a bit !
What you have measured is a voltage, not a wattage !
Power is VA (which means Volt*Ampere).
You need to measure Volt and Ampere (via a shunt) using a dual
channel oszilloscope. I could not explain it here in detail, read a good
book or google for it. A multimeter is useless when you are trying to
measure power in an inductive (coil) circuit.
But Watt here and Volt there - the one and only thruth is running on a cap !!!
BTW: In Johns video you can see how he speed up his device by hand. This "hitting by hand" inserts a very huge amount of energy into his cap! If he would disconnect all the elecrtical stuff it would run free at least 3 minutes with that amount of energy inserted. His video tells me, that he has nothing (that time). Mike instead touched his device slightly and it speed up automatically. Think about that...
Bye bitbo
PS: My parts arrive this week and my fingers can?t await to start building - keep you infornmed !
QuoteI'm asking for help here guys, because I'm confused.
First there is this video from John that seems to verify the window motor can run on its own:
http://video.google.com/url?docid=-8484430750184911575
Then some time later we have John coming back with another video claiming that Mike faked his motor, and that he was cheating by using a hidden battery.
So John has at least 2 videos now showing his window motor running on nothing but a capacitor, yet he says Mike's is a fake.
Could someone clue me in please?
Why aren't we all building John's version of his window motor if it already is a self-runner?
Darren
QuoteBTW: In Johns video you can see how he speed up his device by hand. This "hitting by hand" inserts a very huge amount of energy into his cap! If he would disconnect all the elecrtical stuff it would run free at least 3 minutes with that amount of energy inserted. His video tells me, that he has nothing (that time). Mike instead touched his device slightly and it speed up automatically. Think about that...
bitbo answers part of your question.
It is very telling to read through the gn0sis thread, paying very close attention to the evolution of the posts of John Bedini, his associates, and "disciples" (for lack of a better word). I'll leave it at that.
It is also valuable and informative to carefully go through every post of Mike.
QuoteHey, slow down a bit !
What you have measured is a voltage, not a wattage !
Power is VA (which means Volt*Ampere).
You need to measure Volt and Ampere (via a shunt) using a dual
channel oszilloscope. I could not explain it here in detail, read a good
book or google for it. A multimeter is useless when you are trying to
measure power in an inductive (coil) circuit.
But Watt here and Volt there - the one and only thruth is running on a cap !!!
I agree completely. All of the scope shots are somewhat meaningless without knowing the phase and amplitude of the currents in the system. Running on a capacitor is almost incontrovertible evidence.
Quotethe one and only thruth is running on a cap !!!
I think this is very important. I think that batteries in the system, even if for 20 years on the same battery, is not convincing. The size of motor we are talking about, running under no load, could run for a very long time on the size of batteries being used. One motor in this thread ran for almost a week on two very small batteries.
Doing what Mike's video showed is the only convincing "proof" of a functional system. Of course the whole setup would have to be examined for validity.
I am very bothered by batteries in the system. It would take years to prove anything was happening, and then you wouldn't be sure.
QuoteI connected it to my motor using the previously posted diagram below.
This is what I got. It looks nothing like Mike?s shots, but It does have some rather large spikes every 3 or so cycles. The motor was running on a 5v battery and the spikes show at 21v on the scope. It didn?t make any difference if the hall sensor and SSR relay were operational or not. (I don?t have the Crouzet yet and was using another SSR).
What does it all mean !!!!!
Sam,
Connecting the scope according to that drawing leads to potentially confusing results. It is somewhat uncertain what you will get with the scope connected there, partly because of where the ground lead is connected, and partly because of the diode and ssr.
I would like to make a motion that we collectively decide where to do scope measurements for future comparisons.
One location I would like to see is right across the capacitor - ground lead on negative side of cap, positive lead on the positve side of the cap. This would show us to what degree any of the spikes are getting to the cap.
Another location that is of interest is right across each of the 3 windings. Negative probe on the bottom of the windings (as drawn) and the positive lead on the top (dot terminal) of the windings. This is 3 separate scope shots.
Anybody else have any ideas on where scope shots should be taken? Or any comments on the drawing location?
Quote from: z_p_e on March 11, 2007, 07:37:09 PM
Hi Tony.
Sorry you had already wound your coil...oh well, you'll have tighter coupling and a tighter wound coil-mass than most others. There's no reason to believe that this is a problem though, so hats off to you. Maybe you could send a pic?
Did you wind with the rotor in place, or insert it after as I suggested to Peter? Aside from taking 4 hours, how was it?
I don't think the brass tubing is going to interfere any more than a steel shaft will, and we know Mike used a threaded steel rod.
What size of wire etc?
Darren
Hi Darren ,
Pic is attached , the coil is 80mm*90mm so it's prety small. I made the holes for the rotor axel after winding. I decided to removed the 2 brass guides (shown in pic) but the hole does slowly close onto the rotor axel. I will try to fix that with small timber wedges or try to hold it apart with cable ties. Two of the wires are aprox 100 meters of .254mm (30 gauge) and the 3rd is .3mm (28 gauge). I wound 3 layers of the .3mm first then started twisting then finished with 3 layers of 3mm. I ended up with 40 ohms on the .254 wires and 31 ohms on the .3mm. I was hopeing for over 40 ohms on all 3.
I have assembled and ran the motor useing only 2 of the windings and the standard Bendini window motor circuit. I am a little disapointed as it needs 15 volts and 0.1 amp to maintain its speed. This is due mainly to bearing alignment I think. I will fix that and try again. I want to get the motor running as well as I can before I add the extra circuit and use the 3rd winding.
Please note that I am a farmer and have little electronics knowledge so don't take any notice of what I do :-) But feel free to criticise.
Cheers
Tony.
Sam wrote:
QuoteThis is what I got. It looks nothing like Mike?s shots, but It does have some rather large spikes every 3 or so cycles.
On the contrary Sam, you are close. Your D2 shot is very similar to my own in fact. Of course you have your scope leads inverted, or the channel inverted, but that's ok.
The tops should be rounded somewhat as shown in pics shot. I have not been able to get this quite yet either, but still working on it.
Now you just have to time S1 to switch ON at the first downward spike.
With one timing magnet, you will have one larger spike every 3 cycles. That is ok for now, as there is no point in adding the other two magnets until the ou effect is seen.
One other thing, I have not been able to get the spike spacing as shown in Mike's and now Sam's scope shots. The spikes in my model are much closer together. Still trying to figure out what affects this double-spike spacing.
Oh, and the post saying the energy above 0V is what is put in, and the enrgy below 0V is what is put back, is not correct. This is simply a waveform, nothing more at the moment.
Dingbat is right in that this is a troublesome spot to be scoping, as I pointefd out some time ago, but still it is all we have of the ou effect, so I still use it as a reference. I agree that the 3 coils is also a good reference for comparisons....again these are all we have anyway.
See Sam's annotated scope shot below.
Darren
Two questions:
1. Am i am right, when assuming that Mike had the hall sensor fired only once per six magnets passing through ?
2. Does the trigger coil fire the motor 3 times or 6 times per revolution ?
Bye bitbo
Quote1. Am i am right, when assuming that Mike had the hall sensor fired only once per six magnets passing through ?
2. Does the trigger coil fire the motor 3 times or 6 times per revolution ?
1. Yes. In the video there appears to be only one timing magnet on the pulley. So the ssr switches ON and OFF once per rev.
2. It fires Q1-Q3 three times per revolution. 6 magnets alternated N-S creates 3 sine cycles per revolution.
Darren
PS. In my tests so far with my model, D2 does not conduct, even if S1 is switching ON coincident with L2's bemf spike.
Thanks for the constructive comments guys. As you can see I'm a total novice with the scope. I worked on it some more tonight before reading the posts so the shots are still inverted. I discovered something very interesting though. Firstly, the USB scope has a maximum of 20v, so when I went to 10x the spikes shot up to 5v which I assume translates to 50v. I also realised that by recording rather than reading at realtime I was able to increase the sensitivity and read the spikes on every cycle. Also, I got consistent double spikes by changing the value of the resistor on the first transistor. It is now set at 15K. See pic.
When I totally disconnected the hall IC there was no change on the scope. When I removed the SSR, the pattern went to a sine wave. See pics. I put the relay back and the scope was reading exactly the same with only the output pins 1 and 2 (see pic) on the relay connected across the switch.
@Peterae
The USB scope is called Poscope Basic which I got from Jaycar Electronics. I believe it's available in Europe and the US. I'm only just starting to come to grips with it, but I would say that it is fairly basic and has only very limited adjustment. It is cheap at $270 AUD when compared to real ones, but I believe will suit my purpose for this project. It also needs a fairly high spec Windows PC to run. Info is available on the net.
Tomorrow I may post some shots taken at the Cap and the coils as suggested (the right way up).
Cheers
Sam
Sam,
You currently have your scope connected according to the diagram in your earlier post, right?
Do you have the negative of the scope connected to the negative side of the capacitor, and the positive lead connected between the ssr and the diode?
And you are positive that there is not an invert function on the scope?
DB
I thought I would post the results of some experiments for rotor weights and flywheels.
The motor is setup without the 3rd coil or extra cct connected. I have my meter connected to the 3rd coil (reading AC volts) and am useing it as a tachometer or crude way to see energy produced. I am assuming voltage from the 3rd coil is a good indicator of speed and energy produced.
All tests repeated 3 times. Motor spun-up by hand and readings taken when they had settled back down to a constant voltage for 30 secs. Rotor is rubber wheels from a printer with 20mm*10MM*3mm neos stacked 2 high. Stacking the neos to reduce air gap and slight increase in mag strength made a HUGE difference. Motor would not run under 5.5 volts with just one neo and drew about 50ma. Now running at 3 volts and much less amp draw.
Voltage across 3rd coil. (connected only to meter)
With no extra fly wheel I read .89 volts
with 80 gramm flywheel I read .68 volts
with 180 gram flywheel I read .48 -.54 volts and motor is struggling
I can see no change in MA drawn by motor , but it is now running at insanely low Ma and it is very dificult to get an accurate reading. My amphere meter is 1 amp max and the needle is moving about the width of the needle from zero. I have no idea how accurate the meter is however. For some reason putting my multimeter in series with powersupply doesn't work.
Well it's not earth shattering but does tend to go against Mike's advice to use a heavy flyweel , so I thought I would share as some may now wish to experiment with total rotor weight as a result.
cheers
Tony.
Ok got me coil done, Quad-Filiar
coil 1 25.1 Ohms
coil 2 24.8 Ohms
coil 3 25 Ohms
coil 4 40.1 Ohms.
240 Turns.
Cant get a picy untill tonight, forgot to take camera to work :(
PS. the Inductance meter is on its way, but can take 1-2 weeks.
QuoteI am assuming voltage from the 3rd coil is a good indicator of speed and energy produced.
It is a great indicator of speed. It may or may not have anything to do with energy produced. If you are not able to draw any current from the 3rd winding, no power is there (.89v times 0amps = 0 watts = 0 energy)
A very interesting test would be to add a resistive load to the third winding and see how it affects the motor. Start with about a 1k resistor (less than 1ma load), then drop down to lower values and see what it does to the current and speed of the motor.
If you don't have an ammeter with better resolution you may not be able to tell anything conclusive though. Your multimeter may have a blown fuse in the ammeter circuit. This is a very common problem. You might check if it has fuses inside. This would give you a better check on what is going on with the current.
Quote from: Peterae on March 13, 2007, 06:50:15 AM
Ok got me coil done, Quad-Filiar
coil 1 25.1 Ohms
coil 2 24.8 Ohms
coil 3 25 Ohms
coil 4 40.1 Ohms.
240 Turns.
Cant get a picy untill tonight, forgot to take camera to work :(
PS. the Inductance meter is on its way, but can take 1-2 weeks.
Hey Peter,
I'm glad to see that the Ohms worked out pretty close to the predicted values.
Which meter did you end up buying? Mine is supposed to take a couple weeks also.
Hi Darren
Same one. :)
The inductance and capacitance meter.
I looking at a digital PC Scope next.
Guys,
I'm convinced that there is an error in Mike's drawing, and that is where he placed D2.
D2 should be sourced from the bottom of L2, not the top. Spikes from the top of L2 actually oppose the positive spikes induced in L3. This tends to counteract the charging effect on the capacitor.
Do a test by scoping the output of the FWB WITHOUT a capacitor load. Place a 1k Ohm resistive load if you like and monitor the difference when D2 is sourced by the top or bottom of L2.
Note that in the pictures we have of Mike's motor, we can not see where D2 is being sourced from.
Darren
@Peter.
Looking forward to seeing what your coils measure out to be with your new meter ;)
Hi Darren,
I posted a picture a while back which was a shot from Mikes video which shows the diode coming off the bridge and it was the same way round as the diagram.
Therefore:
- Either something else in his diagram is wrong.
- It was an oversight in his fake.
- Something unknown is going on with this odd configuration.
Of course, there is no knowing what the other end of the diode in the video is connected to!
Regards,
Dave.
It looks to me if you follow the diode connection of the bridge, it is connected to Gen - on the strip.The other end of the diode is 1 of the thick black wires works it's way around the back to the SSR.
The diagram is indeed wrong ,Winding 3 is connected the wrong way round in the diagram.
Actually i cant see a diagram that shows the polarity of the Gen winding LOL, but it is the oposite way you would think it drawn.
L2 wiring looks correct to me if you follow the Red lead from the SSr it goes to Main+
Hi Dave.
The bridge end of the diode connection is not in question. It is the source end that is...or was.
Upon closer examination of the photo showing Mike's setup with the new white Crouzet relay, one can conclude that the diode is in fact sourced from the Main+ end of L2 as per Mike's drawing. So I am wrong.
A black and red wire can be seen coming from behind the relay. The red goes to the Main+ terminal on the terminal strip (see my annotated photo, earlier post), and the black goes around back and appears to connect to the end of the diode which the other end is attached to the bridge.
This being the case, I have a theory about L2's actual function in the process, which I'll think about some before I post it. In short, L2 contributes nothing or very little "electrical" to the charging of the capacitor.
Darren
Also if you study the picture composed of bread board and strip (the picture made up of 5 pictures)
Note the colour of the crock clips on the bread board, now check the crock clips out on the proto board with the earlier picture where there is no SSR , they are different order even tho the crock clips on the strip board are in the same place.
I have seen some stuff with a newman motor, a winding normally producing 5v AC when shorted at maximum flux then released shortly after with an ssr give enough of a kick to trigger a neon to discharge.
I think the trouble with Mike is that he has shown us 3 builds, the one in the video is the known worker, but it is different to the other 2, not only is it reversed but the wiring layout is in a different direction ie the proto board is on opposite side, now ive been freezing the video at various places, i can trace the yellow it sticks out to Trig - and i am pretty sure ive got the Trig + going to the right place, but Main+ - seems interchanged, altho it is very difficult to see clearly.
If you look the green lead bottom right is blacker than the red lead botom left, now goto the strip ,the blacker of the 2 main coil crocks i would say is the left 1 of the main winding, which mean the order on the video is from left to right Tri - , main +, tri +, main-. Its impossible to be sure, from a technical point of view would that work.
For L2 to contribute, it must be a higher voltage than L3 (which it supposedly was in Mike's case) If there is any requirement on the coils, that would be one of them. I think L2 must have more turns than L3 if it is designed to contribute to the charging.
I have been curious about the phasing of the coils for a long time. I hope someone figures it out.
Try Owon colour LCD digital storage scope EDU5022.
I have ordered a scope from Owon directly (model PDS6062T), you can get them on ebay but there is no warantee or tech support and its the same price as directly from the manfacturer.
Watch the PC scopes as some have limited input voltage protection, the better scopes can take up to 400v and some hight still.
Rob
Hi Guys
Well? another exciting evening playing with the motor and oscilloscope.
I got the scope shots around the right way this time.
Also, I thought of taking readings without the battery powering the MBC (Mike-Bedini-Cole)motor, as it could have some misleading effect. I set up a small DC motor with a belt drive onto the flywheel. I powered the small dc motor with a 5.2v power supply (from a PC), which got the MBC motor spinning quite briskly.
I also reconnected the hall IC and SSR (not the Crouzet- has not arrived yet) as per Mikes diagram.
Most of the maximum voltage readings on the scope readout are 22.4v because that's the scope?s limit.
In the last pic the small separate drive motor was disconnected from the flywheel and the motor run with 2 AA rechargeables at 2.6V. The scope probes were connected to CAP Negative and between the SSR and D2 (as per Mike?s diagram).
Any knowledgeable advice and comments would be greatly appreciated.
I will also be trying Dingbat's suggestion about adding resistance to L3, and Darren's regarding connecting D2 and SSR to the bottom of L3 to see what happens.
Cheers
Sam
MeggerMan
Lovely scope good price too.
Thanks
Peter
I Keep looking at that video i swear that L2 is connected in oposite polarity.
Hi
ive got to go, have a look at this, can someone check if the order is correct as i think it is wrong for L2
This pic clearly shows Yellow,Green,Green,Red crocks from left to right.
OK
ive had a chance to check my findings, and they are that L1 and L2 are connected in reverse on the Video as opposed to the Photo of the static Board.
In the static photo he posted Green is on left of Q1 and Yellow on right of Q1
Red on the left of Q2 / Q3 and green on right.
but in the video
Yellow is on left and green on right of Q1
Green on left and red on right of Q2/Q3
and the crocks are the same way in the video as the picture.
Someone tell me i am mad and to shut up please.
What happend to Mike,that he does not show up to communicate
with us.
Many Questions could be answert by him.
Helmut
Peterae
"Someone tell me i am mad and to shut up please" ;D I wouldn't tell you that ;D But you definately confused me with all those colors, wires, and where they go ;)
Dave
Peter,
Yes, it looks like the leads are reversed on the breadboard in the two photos, while the order on the strip is the same.
However, remember that one pic was taken when Mike was only testing off the battery, and perhaps charging the cap separately from L3.
As long as L1 and L2 are in phase, this configuration works fine. It is not until you run the thing only off the cap that all 3 coils must be in phase, and Mike wouldn't have been aware of the reversal until he went to get all 3 coils working together.
Mike even mentioned that he accidently reversed one of the coils.
Darren
Hi Darren,
I wasnt sure if it would make a difference, the problem is we are all copying the Main picture, but the film circuit is slightly different, hope i am not annoying anyone just trying to pull the whole thing apart and see if i can find anything thats been missed.
Heres me coil.
another observation as well, i see the Hall sensor is not screened from the effects of the coil, not sure how close it has to be before it picks up and gets triggered by the main coil pulse.
Quote from: Peterae on March 13, 2007, 05:38:54 PM
Hi Darren,
I wasnt sure if it would make a difference, the problem is we are all copying the Main picture, but the film circuit is slightly different, hope i am not annoying anyone just trying to pull the whole thing apart and see if i can find anything thats been missed.
Heres me coil.
No annoyance at all Peter. I'm the same way.
Nice job on the coil. How did you get tape around the split areas?
Darren
A D2 scope shot for comment.
FWB is driving a 1k resistive load.
Darren
I'm very impressed. It's hard to believe its a simulation. Nice work.
And one more. The closest I've come yet.
FWB driving 150k Load.
Darren
Thanks DB.
I wouldn't be using simulation if I didn't have some confidence in it. I've been very impressed with many other sims I've done in the past. This is the first "motor" I've tried modeling.
Still, there is that distinct "curve" that is missing at the ON and OFF transitions.
Darren
Still boils down to being like a bottle of coke. Aint nothing like the real thing baby!
;D 8)
sugra
Hi Darren
that is amazing for a simulation.
I have never built a coil like this before, and have very few tools, because my wire didnt arrive, i went away and made a former.
The former made it easy to wind and place tape under the middles to hold it together while taking it off the former, i then tightly wound insulation tape across top and bottom, then seperated the side equally, then tightly wound insulation tape down each half, the key is to pull the tape hard so it stretches while carefully winding it around the wire, it then holds the opening for the shaft without moving.
By freeze framing the video i have drawn a circuit with all the wires i can see ,if i can see where they go i draw them ,if i dont know there destination, i draw where they head for.
The picture clearly shows the positive of the cap going to the ssr output terminal and also to the bridge, this does not match the circuit we have been given.
Also i cannot be sure of the polarity on the Gen Winding.
Since i posted the picture below, i have found a wire connected to M+ which appears to goto the bridge probably one of the wires thats labelled cant see.
Peter,
Nice job on the former. If I wind one, I'll do something similar.
I looked at your hand drawn circuit briefly, and it all looks as it should be except for the ssr source. You've shown it coming form the Gen+ terminal, but in the video it looks like it is either coming from the T+ or M+ terminals. As it is supposed to be sourced from the Main+, I would think it is safe to say that is where it is connected. So, nothing strange really?
There are one or two wires I'd like to verify myself too, and will do so later when I have more time. I'm off to work right now.
Also, it would be nice if we could sus out where the diode is in the video. I would say we should be looking for it being soldered to the end of a heavy black wire, and connected to the FWB.
Darren
Hi Darren
I am 100% positive the SSR is connected to the G+ or G- (not sure of winding polarity)terminal.
the next terminal to the left is M+ seems to inch its way to the bridge.
I have looked for the diode there is no sign of it.
I propose a circuit, i have not thought about the functional side, this is as i see it following the wires, i have guessed the possible position of the diode, because i can see the wire from M+ goto the bridge it must be in the left most Gen wire going to the bridge, this is the wire i cannot see anything off.
Hi Darren,
I know you love your SIMs! What are you hoping to find in your SIM? Just replicate the wave form using a virtual circuit or hope the virtual circuit will run itself!
Don't take that the wrong way either...
Dave.
Peter,
I suppose this configuration is possible. I may have even already tried this myself, as I have done 100's of sims with variations thus far.
Problem with this particular config, is there will be current splitting between L2 and the cap. So the cap will be charging itself so to speak. This is true, because you will notice in the video a yellow lead going from the cap+ to the breadboard to supply power to the Q's.
Darren
Hi Darren
I have just gone over what ive done and rechecked, i also verified the bridge connections with the technical data of a similar bridge to verify the +, - are in the right place and they are.
I have been unable to work out the wiring for the hall and ssr drive.
It would be good to verify when you have time, as this is the worker.
As for the simulation, I am glad you have the knowledge to do it, its another angle that is trying to figure it out, the more people that work to this, the more chance we have of finding the result.
If someone does find a way of getting something for nothing energy wise, i would be real interested to see if a sim can reproduce it, especially if it breaks all the rules we have in the text books.
Also
for anyone in the UK
Copper wire, hall switches and electronics components can be had at cpc.co.uk as sourcing some bits is not the easiest thing for us.
Peter,
Whats you location in the UK? (PM me if you prefer).
I am 10 miles South East of London Bridge.
Regards,
Dave.
Hi Dave
at work which is where i seem to be most of my life, near seaford,east sus.LOL East sus -/s=/e=/x .It wouldnt allow me to use the last 3 characters
Peter
Ok, Peter, not so far from me!
I prefer to shop at www.rapidonline.com
They don't have a minimum order and stuff comes the next day!
Regards,
Dave.
Hi Dave
I also use rapid and find them very good, but they did not do the hall sensors and didnt have the guage wire i needed.
They also dont have a min order but charge about ?5.00 for handling and postage on small orders.
Peter
QuoteHi Darren,
I know you love your SIMs! What are you hoping to find in your SIM? Just replicate the wave form using a virtual circuit or hope the virtual circuit will run itself!
Don't take that the wrong way either...
Dave.
I know you didn't ask me, but I think the simulation is very useful in helping weed out things that are not likely to work.
Obviously, if the simulation software is "by the book", we are not going to find evidence that a given system will self run. But, it can certainly keep us on paths that are likely to give similar results to Mike's, if indeed Mikes video was not faked.
I think it is also useful for showing that most of what is going on is not magic, and can likely be explained "conventionally". If Mike's motor was real, then obviously something beyond our "conventional" wisdom is going on. This doesn't mean that conventional wisdom will completely go away. I want to know in the end how much of a departure Mikes motor was from conventional analysis (if any). In other words, the simulation shows this will happen, but this is what really happened - the difference is what we have to explain in the end.
One thing that the simulation cannot predict (at least in it's current form) is the effect of the moving magnets. Darren has simulated the system as a transformer being driven by a primary. This will closely approximate what is going on, but it is not identical to rotating magnets to induce the windings.
I think that if Mikes motor is not a fake, the "trick" will be in some quirk in what is going on with the permanent magnet fields intersecting the coils, etc. Some little crack in lenz's law or something. Therefore I don't expect the simulation to predict overunity, because the rotating magnets are not actually simulated, and even if they were, a conventional simulation better not predict overunity.
Hi Dingbat, I see what you are saying.
I guess it depends what you are working on. If using batterys with either the mono-pole or the window motor, there is no excess energy in the motor. The effect takes place in the battery, so no sims will work.
We cannot see OU in a sim in any form, positive or negative, so in my view its very limited in its usefulness. Sure, you can use it to design switching controllers for your motor, but trying to anaylse where the energy maybe coming from in a SIM is just plain useless and I am not sure what can come of it.
On the other hand, at least you can see that the wave form is normal because it shows up in the SIM as Darren has shown. Its only missing the curve because there are no inductions from the magnets!
But that tells you what some people have always said, that you cannot see Negative energy on a scope! If the same wave form appears in a SIM then the answer is not in the scopes shots from Mike. What I mean is, yes, the scope shot shows the switching, etc, but it doesnt show Negative energy. You cant measure it, only see its effects.
If we are talking batterys, then we already know why it works. The fast almost currentless higher voltage spikes applied to the battery. John has told the answer many times.
Regards,
Dave.
QuoteHi Darren,
I know you love your SIMs! What are you hoping to find in your SIM? Just replicate the wave form using a virtual circuit or hope the virtual circuit will run itself!
Don't take that the wrong way either...
Dave.
Dave,
Pretty much most of what DB said.
For me it is pretty much the best way to initially get inside a circuit and explore any aspect of what is happening there. The ideal scenario is to have both the real motor built, and the model using simulation. I'd probably be a lot farther along by now if I had the motor sitting on my bench so I can bounce back and forth.
My preference is as DB said, to find out everything possible using the model before I go to build. I can do this 10 times faster with the model than anyone can do with their real motor. Further, there is virtually no limit to what can be "probed" in the model, whereas one would be very hard pressed to examine some of the points in the circuit that I am....and all simultaneously if I wish, with no limit to the number of channels.
Bottom line?... I wanted to learn about the somewhat complex interactions going on, and just to see if I could do it....an exercise in modeling if you like. I think I have accomplished my goal. If I find something odd, then that's bonus.
I don't expect to find the overunity mechanism if it in fact does exist, but I'm not ruling it out either.
Regards,
Darren
PS. I know there are few fans of what I am doing with modeling this motor. Doesn't bother me though ;)
Hi Darren,
Your points are taken. I use SIMs myself for certain things. I guess I just prefer to work with my hands and I think that in this field, there is only one answer, and thats to build and experiment with real devices.
However I do find your posts informative. But if you sim cannot add in the effects of the magnets spinning then I guess what you can do in the SIM is limited. Will you be building a test model to go along side your SIM work?
Dave.
I think Mikes video came first( it was looser), but i also think he took it apart to smarten the wires up and use wire ties, this explains the static pictures being different to the video.
I also think from the confusion that followed, he lost the working design, and decided to exit the scene to save face.
The second ssr he used would draw more current than the first, because of the LED every milliwatt counts in this game, so if he did get the second 1 working as he said he did he was at least showing an increase of captured power of 0.6 watts to drive the LED(I dont think he did).
If that is the case the only thing you can do is release the video, take a bit of credit and dissapear untill someone else reproduces his original design.
Of course he may also of been abducted by Aliens, who 2 months previous abducted him to show him how to build it, and because he screwed it up have now sent him to another planet for punishment. :)
I thought that was what this planet was for? I mean, why else do you think that they put a radiation belt around it for??
;D 8) ::)
sugra
I've already said in a previous post that what I can accomplish with this model is limited. I already acknowledged that.
When I feel I've exhausted all usefulness of the model, I may build the motor.
I've got more tests and work to do yet, and don't count out the Lenz effect to the rotor (i.e. magnet interaction) just yet!
Darren
Sorry Darren,
I don't read all the posts anymore because I am on so many forums and yahoogroups that I spend more time reading messages that doing research so I have restricted myself in forums and stuff to spend more time testing and experimenting because it was starting to get ridiculous.
Regards,
Dave.
No Problem Dave.
Where are you at right now?
Last I read you were using the balanced driver circuit of John's.
What's the advantage of using that circuit?
Darren
Hi Darren,
If you use the mono-pole circuit on the window motor you only activate on the north poles, ie on every other magnet passing. With the bipolar switch it changes the "polarity" on the driver coil on every other magnet. So the coil is activated 6 times per revolution, not just 3. If the coil was to activate on the other magnets, the polarity would mean the rotor would be pulled backwards not attracted and this was something I noticed quickly in my first motor which went in to oscillation and triggered the coil at the wrong time resulting in the rotor being pulled backwards at certain points slowing it down.
But I have been on vacation for a week and only been back a few days. I will be down the workshop tomorrow with Paul to finish it and we are also building a nice thick plexiglass mono-pole motor and also another window motor, a smaller one which has ferrites as my first one has neos.
Results will be posted once they are completed and able to be run and tested, etc which I hope I can start this weekend.
Dave.
Dave, which is the "bipolar" circuit?
The circuit Mike posted which is the one we're all talking about and using here, switches ON 3 times per revolution.
I assume the monopole is the one we're using, and you'll be soon going back to?
Darren
hi im new here and not an electronis expert but if you dont mind where would i find the stuff to build one and does anyone have any instructions on how to build one
sorry but those diagrams r confusing to me
Quote from: z_p_e on March 14, 2007, 03:52:39 PM
Dave, which is the "bipolar" circuit?
The circuit Mike posted which is the one we're all talking about and using here, switches ON 3 times per revolution.
I assume the monopole is the one we're using, and you'll be soon going back to?
Darren
Here Darren...
My ferrite window motor will use the mono-pole circuit, my neo one will use the full circuit.
Dave.
Darren
can you let me know if you manage to sim the circuit i sketched, from the film, i would be interested to see if it works, as i will probably build mine that way.
Cheers
Peter
Peter,
That circuit will not work exactly as drawn. There is no power path to the top of the transistor that drives the main coil. Also, the power to the main coil would dump right back to the capacitor through the diode and bridge. There must be some errors in it that will have to be corrected for it to work at all.
DB
Hi Dingbat
Yes i didnt draw the emitter connection to the positive supply,I was just wondering what the sim said, i can see what you are saying with respect to a DC supply,but i was curious about the path of spikes as the magnet field collapses from the main coil.
I am fairly confident i managed to draw the diagram as it has been built by Mike.
I would like someone else to verify my findings tho.
Still only a few days away now before i get to a stage where i have an experimental machine.
Peter,
On the schematic you've drawn, where do you want the diode inserted?
Do you want the Q3-E connected to cap+?
I'll run the sim once I know.
Darren
Hi Darren
The transistors are all connected up to the usuall power rails so yes Emitter to + cap.i am pretty sure the diode goes in the right hand side of the bridge.
Thats great
Thanks
Peter
PS how do you simulate the timing for the SSR firing.with respect to the main coil firing.
ok Peter.
I've already done the sim according to that. What points would you like to see probed?
Timing is easy. I just monitor Q3-C with one probe, and the output of S2, which is in place for this sole purpose (you can use your S1 also). S2's output is a nice clean pulse, and I adjust the phase until the switch closes just at the instant L2 collapses. I've attached an example. In this, you can see that the timing should be advanced 2 or 3 more degrees still.
Darren
PS. What I've looked at so far doesn't look too pretty ;)
Hi Darren
I dont know whats possible, would it be possible to see current flowing through the gen coil as L2 aproaches firing point - and as L2 gets switched off.
I would also like to see the effect the Gen coil has on the cap voltage as a N magnet pole approaches the Gen coil and the ssr fires.
Also same as above but when a S magnet pole approaches the Gen coil.
Thanks
Peter
It's all pretty basic electroincs really,trouble is i think i am looking for a strange effect, but i dont know what im looking for, i need to get my build done and try things.
I suppose what im after is a verification that the circuit will charge the cap, if so how well, and are there any small variations that look better. The fact that 2 wires from the cap goto the SSR and bridge, have showed me the circuit everyone is building is wrong.
Peter, See below.
So this is L2 current, and V at the FWB output. keep in mind that I have replaced the cap as a load with a 1k resistor. So there is no charging cap here, just what would be charging the cap IF it was there.
Darren
PS. What's possible to measure? Just about anything. Even power. Let me know if you want to review how I've got things connected for this sim run... it's kinda strange.
Hi Darren
what is keeping the voltage across the cap from falling, i presume there is a constant voltage source feeding it.Ok sorry there is no cap LOL.
Ok
total power comsumption, what is the best time to trigger the SSR and keep the total power consumption to a min.
I've been thinking about what Dave and DB mentioned regarding the passing magnets affecting the waveforms we're seeing both in the real motors and in my model.
I believe what is happening is a modulation of the coil core's permeability. The coil-mass is essentially an air-core coil, but as a pm approaches, the permeability of the area near the windings increases. This would be challenging to model I think, although probably not impossible if you're clever enough (which I'm probably not :'( ).
One other ting I've learned, and perhaps someone could confirm, is air-core coils generally do not have better than a 0.7 coupling coefficient. I have been using 0.95 thus far. When I adjusted it down to 0.7, and increased the coil's parallel capacitance, things started looking much closer to reality. One affect was the spreading out of the double-pulse. In mine thus far, they have been too close together, but now are almost the same spacing as shown in Mike's scope shots (~ 1.5 - 2.0 ms).
Darren
Quote from: Peterae on March 15, 2007, 08:45:58 AM
Hi Darren
what is keeping the voltage across the cap from falling, i presume there is a constant voltage source feeding it.
Yeah, as I mentioned, no cap in this circuit. Source is a battery.
OK great stuff
I would be interested in the timing of the SSR to minimize the current consumption.
Cheers Darren
PS hopefully those dam meters will arrive, i still need to get a scope to see what will be happening with my proto type.
It is so annoying sitting at work doing very little at the moment, i could be at home assembling. :'(
Hi Darren
Not sure if this is what you are looking for
http://www.cebik.com/link/link1.html
Air wound coils, no matter how closely coupled, will have a coefficient of coupling well below 1. For most cases, values of k from 0.3 to 0.6 are common with air wound coils. Table 1 provides a sampling of some variations in k and M with different values for L1 and L2.
Sample Values of M and k With Sundry Values of L1 and L2
L1 L2 LTA LTB M k
Values yielding k = 1
5 5 20 0 5 1.0
8 4 23.32 0.68 5.66 1.0
10 1 17.32 4.68 3.16 1.0
Values yielding M = 2.5
5 5 15 5 2.5 0.5
8 4 17 7 2.5 0.44
10 1 16 6 2.5 0.79
Values yielding M = 1.0
5 5 12 8 1.0 0.2
8 4 14 10 1.0 0.18
10 1 13 9 1.0 0.32
Note: Values of L1, L2, and M are inductances and may be read as Henrys,
milli-Henrys, or micro-Henrys, so long as the unit of measure is the same
for L1, L2, and M.
Table 1. Sample values of M and k with sundry values of L1 and L2.
Peter,
The timing is straight-forward I think.
Set for S1 "ON" just before L2 collapse. Turn S1 "OFF" before next Trigger. See the scope shot I just posted.
From what I have seen so far in my model, D2 only conducts during the transient spikes.
Obviously there is something still missing in the model, and that is the gradual roll-off after the spikes. This part is important I think because it's the ou bit as Mike implied.
My guess as to what this oddity is, is the generator voltage riding on the cap voltage. Doesn't make sense, but that's what it looks like to me.
Ok Darren.
Please note the post above about the k constant values, as i think you may have missed them because we posted at the same time.
Thanks.
OK, thanks for that Peter.
So it looks like you confirmed what I found out.
I'll try some values between 0.3 and 0.6 as well. These coils are not particularly closely-coupled.
Darren
PS. Hope you get your scope soon too. I'm also looking into DSO's.
One other thing I need to know about these coils is their self-resonant frequency. I'll then be able to determine the coil's parallel cap for the model.
Darren
could i use a Dip meter.
Sorry, not sure what a Dip meter is.??
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Altai-KDM-6-Dip-Meter-GDO_W0QQitemZ280092037861QQcategoryZ48701QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
probably too high frequency anyway.
Just want to raise a point here. It seems it is thought that Mike never came back to the forums because he couldn't get his motor running again after having a couple components die in his first unit.
I'm not sure where this came from, but here's a quote from Mike seemingly stating the opposite:
QuoteOK guys I got the hall ic and the motor is working again
here are the scope shots taken across cap neg. and ss relay output before diode.
This was the post that he gave us his D2 shots. It was shortly after this post that Mike disappeared.
Darren
QuoteI'm not sure where this came from, but here's a quote from Mike seemingly stating the opposite:
It was in Mikes post of 2007-02-15 22:05 on the gn0sis.com board. It was the post with the "D2" scope shots, as you indicate.
Second post on this page:
http://www.gn0sis.com/component/option,com_joomlaboard/Itemid,42/func,view/id,2236/catid,41/limit,20/limitstart,360/
Hi DB.
Thanks. Yeah I know the post came from gn0sis. I don't know however where the notion came from that the motor didn't work again.
Darren
I recently went back and reviewed all of Mikes posts in the gn0sis.com forum. It was very interesting. I find his posts to be almost more credible than his video. If the guy was a fake, he did an incredible job of being believable.
If you go back and look through all of his posts, you get the feeling that the guy just stumbled on to something and was doing his best to share what he had done. Compare his posts to those of John Bedini, or the posts in the Steven Marks thread. There is no comparison. Mike seemed to do everything he could to answer questions, help document, etc. The attitude of those who claim to be "masters" is completely different. They try to make puzzles and riddles out of every little thing, then they tell you they are doing it for your benefit. I really don't get it. (I think I do get it, but I don't think it needs to be spelled out here.)
DB
Dingbat, great post. Yes, it seems to me that Mike was genuine. I too hate the "come on, jump through the hoops" attitude of the so called masters.
regards
Albert
I ve found another wire, it now appears he got a wire running off M+ and M-.
Dont take this diagram as correct, its what i see when i follow the wires in the film,and they are very hard to see.
Guys,
I haven't yet begun tracing the wiring seen in Mike's video per Peter's drawing of it, but I must say that if Mike's scope shots are worth anything at all, so far the original circuit checks out.
It has been noted that R2 does not seem to be connected to gnd, and is on V+ instead. I have sim'd that too, and although it has no real affect on the coil waveforms, it does affect the D2 shot, and the D2 shot looks like Mike's only when R2 is on gnd.
I've pointed out that the ssr shown in the video doesn't seem like it would be switching anything, because of the connections, however, switching can be clearly seen in Mike's D2 scope shot.
What to make of it all? I don't know, just keep trudging on I guess.
It's too bad that Mike didn't give the volts/div and timebase settings for his 3 coils scope shots. So far the most confusion and apparent error(s) has been with the coils, and I feel it's important to get this right. Voltage levels are important. Which coil is which is important, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are mixed up somewhere. From looking closely at the ends where they are and were twisted together, it's not unreasonable to suspect they could be shorted together at one end.
Perhaps Mike discovered when he went to build his second copy, it did not work, because of a hidden error in the first one, and has been trying to find what this "error" is ever since.
One clue we can perhaps use to our advantage, is Mike suggested we connect a FWB to L2 and charge the cap from this, while running the motor from a battery. He said that with proper timing of S1 dumping the cap charge into the battery, Ibat should drop off to nearly zero. I'm not sure how this is possible, but I think it is more likely that Vbat stops decreasing over time. The idea being that the cap discharge received by the battery once every revolution replenishes what the battery used to run the circuit/motor in that revolution.
Having said this, what battery voltage did Mike run his motor from??? It would have to be: Vbat<=Vcap correct?
He also said that this configuration should charge the cap up to 6V while spinning the rotor by hand. These are good clues...use them.
Darren
Hi Darren
what do you make of the extra wire from the M-
I am also unable to see the bread board layout so i have asumed that to be correct in the film.
Peter
Quote from: Peterae on March 16, 2007, 08:21:50 AM
Hi Darren
what do you make of the extra wire from the M-
I am also unable to see the bread board layout so i have asumed that to be correct in the film.
Peter
Peter.
Yes very interesting, because what you have drawn there is approaching what I just described above. Originally, Mike had the bridge fed from L2, not L3. The way you have drawn it, it's like he added L3 and the SSR to this configuration later.
L3 would not be charging the cap continuously this way though.
As I said, Mike could have had things mixed up, although I keep goiong back to the waveforms, and for the most part they look the same using the circuit we were given.
I'll try this new circuit of yours later tonight when I get home.
Darren
Thanks Darren.
also worth noting, it has occured to me that if i take the layout on the video and reverse all the wires on the terminal strip from 1 end to the other, you have a prety close circuit, but with the windings for the main and gen swapped. so ineffect you have the gen winding across the bridge altho the gen winding then becomes the main winding.Its confused me -- it could confuse Mike if thats what happened as well
Peter
Peter.
Yeah, and after I determined that the Gen and Main wires were the same gauge, I thought this as well, that they could be swapped by mistake.
I ran a sim of this a number of days ago, and it didn't seem to change the waveforms much as I recall. I'll have to try this again and pay closer attention to the results this time.
Darren
PS. On the way to work, I think I've come up with a way to modulate the k factor (coupling coefficient) of the coils to simulate the magnet's proximity. ;)
Quote from: dingbat on March 16, 2007, 07:55:04 AM
I recently went back and reviewed all of Mikes posts in the gn0sis.com forum. It was very interesting. I find his posts to be almost more credible than his video. If the guy was a fake, he did an incredible job of being believable.
If you go back and look through all of his posts, you get the feeling that the guy just stumbled on to something and was doing his best to share what he had done. Compare his posts to those of John Bedini, or the posts in the Steven Marks thread. There is no comparison. Mike seemed to do everything he could to answer questions, help document, etc. The attitude of those who claim to be "masters" is completely different. They try to make puzzles and riddles out of every little thing, then they tell you they are doing it for your benefit. I really don't get it. (I think I do get it, but I don't think it needs to be spelled out here.)
DB
Guys you must have already heard many disappearance stories about valuable people who have invented stuff like water cars, no input generators.
For some people out there it is quite easy to track down somebody to their address from the IP numbers. Afterall, it does not make sense that Mike disappeared all of a sudden and a minute ago he was doing his best to help out by answering our questions.
I wish someone among you could get his phone number from his IP tracks. I really am worried about the guy.
Hi Darren
you are very clever.
Also i found this which i feel backs up what i have found with the diagram, this was posted when Mike was around, and its from John Bedini notes.
Looks similar.
Are those the transistors Mike used??? I think his were MPS as well.
Peter
Peter...lol ;)
The transistors Mike used were definately NOT the MPS8099/8599 as per John's schemtics. Mike used some medium power Q's, and that's why I've gone with the TIP33/34 (B).
That diagram is step 1 of what Mike did I think. Add a battery and S1 between Cap+ and bat+.
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on March 15, 2007, 08:49:28 AM
I've been thinking about what Dave and DB mentioned regarding the passing magnets affecting the waveforms we're seeing both in the real motors and in my model.
I believe what is happening is a modulation of the coil core's permeability. The coil-mass is essentially an air-core coil, but as a pm approaches, the permeability of the area near the windings increases. This would be challenging to model I think, although probably not impossible if you're clever enough (which I'm probably not :'( ).
One other ting I've learned, and perhaps someone could confirm, is air-core coils generally do not have better than a 0.7 coupling coefficient. I have been using 0.95 thus far. When I adjusted it down to 0.7, and increased the coil's parallel capacitance, things started looking much closer to reality. One affect was the spreading out of the double-pulse. In mine thus far, they have been too close together, but now are almost the same spacing as shown in Mike's scope shots (~ 1.5 - 2.0 ms).
Darren
Hi Darren,
I would like to reflect to
your text in bold above. My experiments with magnets in coils indicated that the permeability of a permanent magnet is very very close to 1! It means by inserting any permanent magnet into an air cored coil the self-inductivity of the coil remains practically the same.
Let me quote this text from link: http://www.magnetweb.com/Sect1C.htm
"Notice that the slope of the B vs. H curve, dB/dH=?o, at least for -Hci<H<+Hci. Now ?o is the permeability of free space, and dB/dH has this same value in air gap regions where there is no magnetic material (M=0),
so even though this ideal permanent magnet does have magnetization M, it appears to the surrounding media like an air gap! This will be important, for example, in determining the inductance of a coil in a magnetic circuit which also contains a magnet."
So if a permanent magnet approaches an air cored coil, the permeability will not change near the coil area just by the magnet's physical presence as if it were kinda iron core. This sounds strange indeed but is true even for the 'good old' ferrite/ceramic magnets too.
Regards
Gyula
Hi Gyula,
Thank you for the insight.
It seems this is called "recoil permeability", and is the slope of the magnet BH curve.
So I guess as odd as it seems, it is not necessary to include the magnet's influence on the coil's permeabilty, since it is pretty well the same as free space.
So, I wonder if anyone can think of ways pm-coil induction differs from coil-coil induction in this instance with the bcwm ?
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on March 16, 2007, 08:13:12 AM
It has been noted that R2 does not seem to be connected to gnd, and is on V+ instead. I have sim'd that too, and although it has no real affect on the coil waveforms, it does affect the D2 shot, and the D2 shot looks like Mike's only when R2 is on gnd.
Hi Darren
Firstly many thanks to you and Peter for keeping this thread alive.
Your comment above reinforces my feelings that something in the original posted circuit is not quite right regarding positive and negative connections. I will experiment.
My scope shots are getting a bit closer to Mike's (without the apparent OU dip), but the spikes on mine always go downwards and Mike's went up.
The attached pic shows Mike's scope shot roughly superimposed over mine, by aligning the spikes.
Cheers
Sam
QuoteSo, I wonder if anyone can think of ways pm-coil induction differs from coil-coil induction in this instance with the bcwm ?
I don't think there will be significant differences for purposes of the simulation. If Mikes waveforms are exactly sinusoidal I would be surprised, but they don't look far enough from it to make an issue of it.
This is the supposed modified version of the original Bedini circuit shown above.
Peter, can you look at the video and see if there is any way that this circuit looks correct. It is easy to see how one could go from the first circuit to this circuit, so it makes sense that this circuit might be correct. If you read Mikes posts, and look at the circuits he drew, this circuit looks right.
Did he actually connect it this way? Who knows?
What I'm trying to say is, I think this really represents Mikes design intent. I don't know whether he put it together this way, however. This circuit makes a lot of sense, except for the fact that there is no apparent complete path for L2 (Big winding in this diagram) to discharge into the cap. There might be some unexplained reason why the circuit worked.
We are in a sense trapping electrons in L2 when the transistors turn off. They may be finding some path back to the capacitor at a shifted potential level due to being blocked by the transistor or something strange. Arguably they have to be going somewhere when the magnetic field collapses.
Also, ignore component values and numbers - we probably agree that some of the component numbers and values are not what he really used.
Hi Dingbat
your diagram is not what i see in the video, i see 2 wires from the +cap ,1 going to the SSR and the other to the bridge,Also i see a wire coming off the Main+ coil and on the Main- coil which i think goto the bridge, so no i dont see your diagram in the film.
Peter
QuoteHi Dingbat
your diagram is not what i see in the video, i see 2 wires from the +cap ,1 going to the SSR and the other to the bridge,Also i see a wire coming off the Main+ coil and on the Main- coil which i think goto the bridge, so no i dont see your diagram in the film.
Peter
Peter,
Do you have the ability to post some views of the movie as stills? I am trying to compare circuits to the video, but I don't have the ability to go frame by frame and zoom in.
I am having a hard time making conclusions from the video, partly because it is such poor resolution.
Another thing worth note, the hall sensor must be connected to the + of the capacitor also. I think the wire that is going from the + of the capacitor and looks like it is going to the ssr might be going to the hall sensor.
Note this circuit posted by Mike at some time
QuoteArguably they have to be going somewhere when the magnetic field collapses.
DB, if you mean "somewhere" as being outside or beyond the point of the coil ends, this is not necessarily so.
Even though these are air-core coils, they are not ideal inductors. Just as every straight piece of wire has inductance, every coil has a "parasitic" parallel capacitor (Cp) and resistor (Rp), no matter how small or large, respectively.
If we DC energize a coil, then disconnect it entirely from the outside world, it's terminal voltage will reverse, and rise to such a level to dissipate energy in this parallel network, thus satisfying conservation of energy. We don't get all of the energy back electrically, because of heat losses due to Rs, and other losses due to Rp (core loss?), and Cp.
When L2 collapses, what paths does it see? Not only this parallel network, but two reverse-biased pn junctions. Is the impedance of these two reverse-biased pn junctions infinity? No. Do these to pn junctions also have parasitic capacitances...yes. So there are high impedance external and "internal" paths to close the loop when L2's field collapses.
Darren
Hi Dingbat
I have not been able to trace the Hall drive circuit, but i feel that can only work one way.
I was use a video editor that came with my PC, not even sure what it was called, but it allowed me to single frame and capture, i then saved the frame and use photoshop to zoom clean up , the only frames of any use are at the end of the video, altho some earlier shots allow for the distinquishing of rough direction, that cant be seen later on.I have not saved any of the frames as there are quiet a few.I am done with that now, but it would be good for you to verify what i have seen.
I will look at the software tommorow to see what it is called and let you know, as i think it is only a free demo, as it asks me to register every now and then.
I did post 1 frame here earlier.
In the following frame you can see the SSR red lead going to the Gen winding, and if you look very carefully there is a black wire shooting down and cutting across it which tucks in the terminal on the left of it, also if you look at the far right side of the terminal you will also see a wire from memory this 1 is from the main winding which goes to the bridge.
It takes some seeing and it helps to have many frames opened at the same time.
QuoteDB, if you mean "somewhere" as being outside or beyond the point of the coil ends, this is not necessarily so.
Even though these are air-core coils, they are not ideal inductors. Just as every straight piece of wire has inductance, every coil has a "parasitic" parallel capacitor (Cp) and resistor (Rp), no matter how small or large, respectively.
If we DC energize a coil, then disconnect it entirely from the outside world, it's terminal voltage will reverse, and rise to such a level to dissipate energy in this parallel network, thus satisfying conservation of energy. We don't get all of the energy back electrically, because of heat losses due to Rs, and other losses due to Rp (core loss?), and Cp.
When L2 collapses, what paths does it see? Not only this parallel network, but two reverse-biased pn junctions. Is the impedance of these two reverse-biased pn junctions infinity? No. Do these to pn junctions also have parasitic capacitances...yes. So there are high impedance external and "internal" paths to close the loop when L2's field collapses.
Darren
Agreed, but whatever residual charge is in the coil is going to dissipate rapidly, and it is going to take the easiest path it can. In the case of a car coil, it is across the spark plug gap. In this circuit, who knows. I'm just theroizing that if the motor wasn't fake, maybe the coil kicks against the transistor and discharges through the ssr, diodes and gets to the cap. Who knows. The polarity of the kick again becomes the problem with my theory.
Hi
Darren
How did the sim go :)
Peter
Hi Peter.
Just got home .5 ago. chatting with my wife in Peru at the moment....will do some sims a little later ;)
Darren
Before running a sim on Peter's new circuit, I'd like to take a closer look at D2 and its pulse.
First shot below you see the D2 shot, probably my best so far.
2nd shot, you see 4 plots together: the D2 again, the switch state of S1, the voltage acrss D2 to indicate when it can conduct, and the current through D2 to see if it's doing any real work.
The voltage pulse looks somewhat impressive, and even the ~800mA spike may seem impressive at first, but look at the 3rd shot below.
3rd shot, you see D2 current again, plot along with the D2 shot to give some perspective. The current spike is ~800mA, but its duration is too short to be of any real use.
Well, anyway that's what the model is producing at the moment.
Regards,
Darren
QuoteMy scope shots are getting a bit closer to Mike's (without the apparent OU dip), but the spikes on mine always go downwards and Mike's went up.
Sam,
I'm not sure if you've inverted your scope shot, but Mike's in your superimposed shot is inverted as he posted it.
I would encourage you to
not invert your channel, nor the scope leads when doing your measurements. Mike's scope shots are inverted, simple as that.
Mike's spikes go down too. Look at my scope shots. When the S1 timing is right, there will be a positive/negative spike, but it is still mostly negative. When S1 is not triggered, the spikes are only negative.
Could you please also post your L1, L2, and L3 shots? Thanks.
Darren
Hi Darren
looks good, have you considered the hall trigger switch time, the magnet in the film looks very wide between 5mm-8mm if you worked the diameter of the wheel out, then the rpm it should give and approximate on time.
Quote from: z_p_e on March 16, 2007, 10:10:45 PM
Could you please also post your L1, L2, and L3 shots? Thanks.
Darren
Darren
These are my Coil shots. I have also added a D2 shot with R2 connected to Positive.
Cheers
Sam
Hi Sam
nice to see another sim going.
Darren my Inductance meter arrived this morning.
Here are my windings
I wound quad-filiar
3 stands of 28AWG
1 strang of 30AWG
Trig strand = 40 Ohms at 13.14mH 30AWG
Main 2 * 28AWG in series = 50.2 Ohms at 49.6 mH
Gen = 25 Ohms 13.07 mH
These measurements were taken with the shaft in place but no rotor fitted.
Looks like winding the Main as 2 strands and putting in series has had quiet an effect on the inductance.
Quote from: Peterae on March 17, 2007, 05:53:24 AM
Hi Sam
nice to see another sim going.
Darren my Inductance meter arrived this morning.
Here are my windings
I wound quad-filiar
3 stands of 28AWG
1 strang of 30AWG
Trig strand = 40 Ohms at 13.14mH 30AWG
Main 2 * 28AWG in series = 50.2 Ohms at 49.6 mH
Gen = 25 Ohms 13.07 mH
These measurements were taken with the shaft in place but no rotor fitted.
Looks like winding the Main as 2 strands and putting in series has had quiet an effect on the inductance.
Wow, I'm impressed with how quick you got the meter.
I'm surprised my calculations were not closer, but that's ok, looks like the real measurements are about 42% of what I calculated.
The relative inductances you measured are almost exactly as expected Peter. And the series bifilar connection for L2 has had no effect at all on the inductance actually, since when the number of turns are doubled (which is what you have, 240x2), the inductances increases by 4. This is what you have, within 2% of theoretical.
Thanks for that. Now I can adjust my model a little.
Oh, btw, I'm pretty sure Sam's scope shots are of his real motor, not a sim.
Darren
Hi Darren
LOL
Thanks
Just started glueing the magnets, still plenty to do ,i will do some pics later.
Peter
Quote from: Peterae on March 17, 2007, 03:15:24 AM
Hi Darren
looks good, have you considered the hall trigger switch time, the magnet in the film looks very wide between 5mm-8mm if you worked the diameter of the wheel out, then the rpm it should give and approximate on time.
I've considered the S1 ON time several times in me ed, but I think only the turn-on time is somewhat critical. The ON time should be sufficient only to capture the bemf effects. OFF should occur before Q1, Q2, and Q3 turn ON again, as I have shown in the scope shots.
What seems to be missing so far in every shot is what appears to be the partial induction cycle from either L2, or L3. See pic below. as long as S1 is ON for this to occur, we're ok.
Darren
Hi Darren
when im up and running, and have managed to get a scope together, we can see what i get.
Still not ordered a scope yet but i am following one as we speak on an auction.
Im going to use ZTX551 and ZTX651 2 amp transistors as i have loads of these, and they are very robust, what sort of power dissipation should i expect from the drive transistors, just need to check that they will do, as they dont have collector heat tags.
Peter
Peter,
Looking at your circuit sim, Q2, and Q3 are averaging about 10mW, with peaks (very spikey) at about 300mW, so you should be ok with those Q's. Q1 seems to be averaging about 25mW, with almost no peaks.
If you find those Q's heating up a little (I really doubt it), you can always glue some metal tangs onto the flat surface of the package. This will help a little.
Darren
Cheers Darren
The other thing do you think i will be ok putting 3 magnets on each stack ,so 6 lots of 3 magnets.
I have enough gap for 3.
Also just spun up with 2 magnet stack and get 2.25 VAC with spin from hand on the main winding tho.
Peter
Hmm,
I've looked at Mike's setup (the collage photo) and I would estimate that he has an air gap of between 1 - 1.5cm between magnet and coil.
If 3 magnets brings you closer than 1cm, then I'd stick with two. If two is more than 1.5cm gap, then perhaps glue something to the bottom of the first magnet to prop it up a bit closer.
Darren
Ok Darren 2 it is i can bend the coil at the corners anyway to get the correct gap, i get abou 1.1 VAC by hand spinning on the Gen winding, altho i only have the shaft to spin, where as Mike had a flywheel. I think Mike got 2.5VAC
Quote from: Peterae on March 17, 2007, 08:37:09 AM
Cheers Darren
The other thing do you think i will be ok putting 3 magnets on each stack ,so 6 lots of 3 magnets.
I have enough gap for 3.
Also just spun up with 2 magnet stack and get 2.25 VAC with spin from hand on the main winding tho.
Peter
So that's about 3.2Vp. Mike implied that spinning the rotor by hand and feeding the bridge from L2 should charge up the cap to 6V didn't he?
What is your air gap with two magnets?
Cant put me cap on yet that measurement was OC
7mm gap at top and 7mm at bottom now ive bent the coil a bit.
Still plenty to get yet, i want some 8mm washers and nuts.and havnt got the resistors yet LOL, i can out on my day off Monday to get these, i have every thing else.
From Mike:
QuoteDirect measurements from mikes spun by hand:-
4.5v ac main winding
2.2v ac trigger winding
2.8 v ac third winding
That's:
L1: ~3.1Vp
L2: ~6.4Vp
L3: ~4.0Vp
It's interesting to note that in the video the cap always seemed to settle around 6V.
I would say he is getting twice what i have :'(
That also explains why his coil looks twice as wide as mine
Quote from: Peterae on March 17, 2007, 09:23:10 AM
I would say he is getting twice what i have :'(
Looking good Peter...nice work. ;)
I think he has more than everyone's replication thus far. You don't have much air gap so that can't be it. Do you know what the strength of your magnets are?
The ones Mike used are either 3450 or 3850 G, I can't remember which.
Darren
Thanks Darren
no sorry, these were given to me by a friend, these seem quiet powerfull to me.
It may just be the speed i am spinning it,as i only have an 8mm thread to twist where as Mike had a fly wheel.
Peter,
What is the diameter of your coil-mass at the split (each one), and in the area they are joined together as one?
Darren
I will check.
I just adjusted my electric drill to go as slow i could(which is still quiet fast LOL)its a presure sensitive trigger.I need to depress trigger on drill fully you see to get the same speed for all 3 windings.
I got
Main 6.9 VAC
Trig 3.1 VAC
Gen 3.3 VAC
so working out the ratio of mine to mikes that gives a factor of 1.53
so mike would be
Main 6.885 VAC
Trig 3.36 VAC
Gen 4.284
Peter
Ok not easy measuring diameter in situ cant get eye line to measure square.
TOP + BOTTOM = 16mm approx
Side 2* = 10mm approx.
I tried circumference as well top and bottom = 6cm
side 2* 4cm very approx again difficult to get fingers in.
Quote from: Peterae on March 17, 2007, 09:57:23 AM
Ok not easy measuring diameter in situ cant get eye line to measure square.
TOP + BOTTOM = 16mm approx
Side 2* = 10mm approx.
I tried circuferance as well top and bottom = 6cm
side 2* 4cm very approx again difficult to get fingers in.
OK.
I don't think you are too far off then. With your parallax error and my estimation error using Mike's photo, there is going to be a difference.
I came up with this:
each coil at split ~ 13mm diameter
coil-mass at top or bottom ~ 16 - 19mm "diameter"
Of course when they join, the coil-mass is more ellipse than circular, so this measurement is the wider dimension.
I am trying to find a cable/conduit fill ratio calculator online and plug in the windings to see what diameter it comes up with. But as I said, I don't think you're far off at all.
Darren
Peter,
Just a thought - do you have anything like the steel washer looking things that Mike had on the ends of his armature? There has been speculation about what (if anything) they do. Maybe they help concentrate the fields and give a better output voltage.
db
Hi Dingbat
Yes i pointed this out some time ago, i ordered 2 Toroidal transformer dished washers 7cm diameter, but then realised my eyes where leading me astray, i thought the side of the spool looked like steel, but in 1 of the photos i think it is plastic.
I do note he has washers and nuts on them, i will try my dished washers once im up and running, i got these from a guy on ebay for a ?1.00 LOL.
Just a comparison
Looks to me as if his is square, and therfore more turns.
I would say i could double the magnet length on my rotor by putting 2 side by side.
I would also say his is smaller.
It looks like you are pretty close. He is a little tighter at the corners than you. Other than that it looks like you have it.
db
Hi Dingbat
thanks, hope so :)
Peter
Guys,
I would appreciate your input on something.
I've been thinking about the k coupling factor in my model, and the real motor.
I've been assuming that the coupling coefficient between the pm-coils and coil-coils is equal.
Not to confuse field intensity with coupling coefficient, wouldn't there be tighter coupling between coil to coil, than from magnet to coil because of the relatively large air gap from magnet to coil?
I am thinking of using a coil-coil k of between 0.5 and 0.7, and a magnet-coil k of about 0.3
What are your thoughts?
Darren
Quote
I am thinking of using a coil-coil k of between 0.5 and 0.7, and a magnet-coil k of about 0.3
Since you know you have the coils about right now, how about getting the magnet k by adjusting at the appropriate frequency for voltages that approximately match Mike's?
I guess for the coil to coil you will have to go with .5-.7 if that is what is typical for coil to coil.
db
Hi
well i skipped work early and went and got my resistors.
Once fired up i could only get it to run at 17 volts at 110mA , a lot of the problem seems to be my bearings, because when i take some side pressure off, i managed 15 volts, i think i need some small spacer washers to hold the nuts off.I could do will lossening the grease up inside, altho they seem sealed, i have heard off people spliting the side off to wash the grease out, not sure if i want to do that. :'(
Lots of things to try , but no time.
Hi Peter
Your motor is really starting to look like Mike's.
I also twisted the wires on the coils, but kept the twisting rather loose, as on the photo of Mike's coil the wires don't appear to be twisted at all. I don't know if this will have any positive or negative effect.
I am about to build another motor, also replicating as far as possible the motor shown in the video, but will go for the tifilar setup as Mike described in an early posting:
"I use (28 gauge .012 in. main)
(30 gauge .010 in. trigger, generator)
I get a little over 40 ohms each
the main winding is longer than the generator and trigger windings. I did not count #turns sorry.
I must say that my stator coil is wider"
I built my first coil in accordance with the above, but scrapped it when I could not get coil voltages similar to Mike's and went for more turns and higher resistance. I now realise that the problem was not the coil, but the magnets and perhaps the coil/magnet spacing. My stacked magnets were only 1500g ferrite. I need stronger 3000+g with the 40 ohm coils.
Cheers
Sam
Hi Sam
good luck with your new build, on your working motor what was your min voltage that causes the rotor to run constantly.
It will be interesting to see the difference the new magnets make on your machine, mine are unknows so could be a possible problem, i think i will look around today for a source.
I'm going to try and balance my rotor today
Peter
Hopefully my new rotor will arrive tommorow. :D
Quote from: Peterae on March 18, 2007, 06:38:37 AM
Hopefully my new rotor will arrive tommorow. :D
:D
hi this is my progress so far
i have wound my stator and hve made my electronics board
i am still waiting on my magnets to arrive
thanks
warren
Hi Warren
Great stuff, what are your coil winding details.
Good luck
Peter
Great stuff going on here guys!
Here is my new ferrite magnet window motor...
Dave.
Quote from: SPP-48 on March 17, 2007, 04:27:31 AM
Quote from: z_p_e on March 16, 2007, 10:10:45 PM
Could you please also post your L1, L2, and L3 shots? Thanks.
Darren
Darren
These are my Coil shots. I have also added a D2 shot with R2 connected to Positive.
Cheers
Sam
Hi Sam.
Thanks for posting your coil shots.
Interesting that your underlying waveform looks to be more "triangle" than sine. L2 looks pretty close, but L3 looks to be a little off as the bottom excursion is somewhat flat. Something seems off a little.
It might be an idea to check your connections and wiring again. The L3 waveform shouldn't be affected this way should it?
What were your vert. and horiz. scope settings?
Darren
Warren,
Good stuff! Going for an exact replication ;)
What did you use for your rotor? Looks metalic.
Darren
Quote from: CTG Labs on March 18, 2007, 08:09:43 AM
Great stuff going on here guys!
Here is my new ferrite magnet window motor...
Dave.
As usual, nice work Dave!
What are your coil specs?
Hi Darren,
At the moment I have used 0.28mm wire for the trigger and drive, about 30ohms and 0.45mm wire for the gen coil.
The motor runs REAL fast once you start adjust the resistance to the base of Q1. The speed increases really fast, and the input current drops a lot to. But at the moment the input current starts around 200mA and once its up to speed is down to about 160mA or less. So I am going to add more turns to increase the resistance some more and bring the operating current down further.
My other motor runs on 3ma with Hall IC switching and good speed, so it is possible to get these running on basically nothing as John has always said.
What is interesting to me is that we can increase the speed and lower the power used at the same time. But as the speed increases the spike voltages increase too. For instance, at the lower speed the spikes are 50v, at max speed they are 180v.
More details later.
Dave.
Quote from: dingbat on March 17, 2007, 03:02:07 PM
Quote
I am thinking of using a coil-coil k of between 0.5 and 0.7, and a magnet-coil k of about 0.3
Since you know you have the coils about right now, how about getting the magnet k by adjusting at the appropriate frequency for voltages that approximately match Mike's?
I guess for the coil to coil you will have to go with .5-.7 if that is what is typical for coil to coil.
db
Guys,
It looks like my hunch turned out to be correct. Just playing a little with separate coupling factors, it's become apparent that this is the cause of the double-spike spacing, and the more pronounced and curvy DC-shift seen on the D2 shot when Q2/3 turn ON.
So, I'm re-doing the model using corrected inductances for the coils as per Peter's measurements he kindly posted, and with the pm-coil and coil-coil coupling at different values.
I will post new waveforms when I am happy with the results and I feel I am there. Once I am "there", the last frontier will be to search for that ever-elusive partial-cycle I highlighted in Mike's D2 shot with the hall switching in.
Can't be certain that this is the ou mechanism of the motor, but at least it gives us something to shoot for. If we can reproduce this waveform, we should have a better insight into what's going on in the motor.
Darren
Also, my work can be found here: http://www.ctglabs.com/window.htm
Test results, etc, will be posted when there are some...
Dave.
Dave,
Your observation of decreasing supply current with increasing speed is typical of most if not all pulse-type motors, isn't it?
As speed increases, the ON-time of the transistors decreases accordingly.
Increasing the base resistance of Q1 offers less (or equal) load to the motor and as a result it will spin faster. Less Lenz = more speed. Because induced voltage also increases with increasing speed, you may actually just be compensating for this by increasing the base resistance.... i.e. Ib remains constant.
I have an idea for a small circuit mod that will do this automatically for you, and hence keep the "Rb" value at optimum at all times. ;)
Darren
Dave,
One other simple solution to the varying Rb "problem", is to replace Q1 with a high gain transistor such as the 2N5210, or even use the MPS8099 (not as good Beta as the 2N5210) as originally from John's schematic.
With a high gain transistor as Q1, you should be able to start off with, and leave in a higher value resistor such as 1k or even 2k or so.
What are you using for transistors right now?
Darren
Well,
I spent about 2 hours yesterday looking over snaps from the video and the stills we have of the motor, trying to trace out the wiring as Peter has done also. It can make you crazy, especially since the video and stills are taken from opposite sides of the motor. ???
I concur with most if not all of Peter's findings. I can not see the diode anywhere, so can't confirm its placement.
I'm not saying that what Mike has there is per Peter's last drawing, but it sure appears that way.
I am fairly confident however that the posted waveforms will not match if the circuit is built that way, so each must decide for himself which circuit to use.
Darren
Hi Darren
Glad you checked out the diagram.you do go a bit blurry eyed after a while.
Glad you find as i have.
Peter
Hi Darren,
I agree that increasing speed lowers the current draw in pulse motors, but I have never really built or played with any specifically before so it never occurred to me until I started playing, but logical when you think about it!
I just used TIP31a and the PNP opposite just as its what I had to hand and wanted to get it running. Now it is running I can start to optimise the circuit.
Your idea for auto adjustment of the base current sounds good!
Dave.
Hi Dave
Whats the min voltage yours will sustain rotation at.
Peter
Peter,
It doesn't appear the same, no.
Here's what I sketched up while I was comparing the two. Sorry for the mess, this wasn't meant to be published. Not sure if it will make any sense, but...
Darren
QuoteYour idea for auto adjustment of the base current sounds good!
Dave,
I would encourage you to try first a high gain Q as I suggested. This would be the simplest, cleanest, and probably the best solution if it works. Just replace Q1 with a 2N5210 or MPS8099 or eq.
Keep increasing Rb until the motor won't start, then back it off say 20%. See what value you end up with.
Darren
Hi Darren
LOL very similar to what i sketched, apart from i had 3 wires the side you have put no wires or windings. SSR red ,M+ wire and M- wire.But im sure you found those.
Day off tommorow, so i can get some washers, balance my rotor, and have a play and who knows i might connect up the SSR.
Peter
Good stuff Peter.
Looking forward to seeing some waveforms, once you beg borrow, steal, or even buy a scope ;)
btw, I don't think it's so necessary to have a digital scope. It's great for easy transfer to the pc etc, and for a little better analysis, but you can do a lot with an analog scope.
I think I'm going to hold off on a DSO until the prices come down to reality. So for now, I'd prefer to spend the $500 or even $1000 on a good digital SLR and just take snaps of my scope.
Darren
Hi Darren
Yer im desperate for a scope, the mrs cant justify me buying a nice one :'(
but i can ;)
Quote from: Peterae on March 18, 2007, 01:36:11 PM
Hi Darren
Yer im desperate for a scope, the mrs cant justify me buying a nice one :'(
but i can ;)
Peter,
At these kind of prices, maybe you can convince the Mrs.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Hitachi-v-355-35mhz-dual-channel-oscilloscope-NR_W0QQitemZ280092823827QQcategoryZ104247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This essentially the same as my Hitachi, but mine is only 20MHz. I paid $940 CA when it was new :-\
I'm very happy with my Hitachi.
Darren
PS. In fact here is mine....going for a lowly $13 so far :'(
http://cgi.ebay.ca/HITACHI-OSCILLOSCOPE-V-212-20-MHz-9284322_W0QQitemZ260095973926QQcategoryZ3284QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Hi Darren
Ive just put an offer in for a 5022 that MegarMan mentioned they were asking ?139 + ?89 postage and packing, i have put an offer in for ?99.99 as i see from their feedback they have previously acepted it.
;)
PS By balancing the rotor i have got the min voltage to 14.5, and boy was the balance out, i used wooden circles for the rotor, that were cut using a circular hole saw.Still need washers on the end to butt up against the bearings.Not happy with the bearings still quiet stiff, might try a soak in light penertrating oil.
Peter
hi every one
i used plastic for center of rotor and a stainless steel sleve my shaft is stainless also this is metalic but not magnetic
main winding is 500 turns of 28 awg or .30mm
generator winding is 400 turns of 28 awg or .30mm
trigger winding is 250 turns of 30 awg or .254mm
i will give out resistances soon
thanks
warren
@Peter,
I re-wound the coils today and have been playing, but then I got a damn cluster headache which I get now and then and couldn't focus properly, so didn't get much done. To answer your question, I have only tried with a 12v battery so far. I do have a variable voltage/current power supply and will see the lowest operating voltage over next few days and post results.
@Darren,
Thanks for the advice regards the transistor, will make some changes over coming days.
Regards,
Dave.
Hi Dave
Thanks, I get headches sometimes which i just cant tolerate light's.
Warren sounds good, will be interesting to see performance.
Also using my circuit diagram, all wired apart from the hall side of the SSR, if i short the SSR out as if its on all the time, the Rotor speeds up and allows me to drop to a lower voltage of about 12 volts to maintain revs, i notice it seems to draw more current tho from the power unit.
If i swap the polarity of the Gen winding, it slows down the rotor and draws more current.
Peter
Wow, Peter.
That seems like a great deal even at 135 GBP! That works out to about $260 US. But of course they always get ya on the shipping.
Hope they accept your offer !
Re. the rotor, For RPM's less than 500, balancing is probably not so critical. Mike's doesn't look particularly fine-machined, but it runs fine at the rpm he is getting, which I believe is about 350-380 RPMs.
@ Dave,
Let me know how that transistor trial goes, and if no joy I'll design that other mod to auto-adjust Rb for ya. The larger Beta you can get for your Q1 transistor, (but not Darlington), the higher your top end RPM will be (to the motor's maximum) and still have the motor start. This is of course done in concert with the process I described earlier to find the maximum Rb value you can use. Give yourself 20% margin to be safe.
Darren
Hi Darren
lovely scope keep me fingers crossed.
Very interesting if i short the ssr out, it will start at low revs and work at low revs when voltage turned down, where as in any other configuration i need a lot more revs to sustain rotation.
If i leave the PSU hooked up, i could quiet easily do a Mike film, we will see if connecting the Hall up tommorow drops the current consumption, but has a similar effect.
Peter
PS being out of balance a lot cost me 2 volts min running voltage.
Peter,
Which configuration/connection are you using....yours or the original?
Mine, but havnt done hall drive to ssr yet, so have just shorted the output of the ssr together.
PS being out of balance a lot cost me 2 volts min running voltage.
Peter.
I guess as you say, it nust have been out quite a bit to make 2V difference. Mike's doesn't seem that bad, but there is a distinct knocking sound that can be heard in the video.
Looking forward to seeing your progress....get that scope!
;) Darren
Darren
LOL
Probably takes weeks :'(
I ordered some more magnets today, ready for my next rotor, they are extremly difficult to buy in the UK,Dave put me onto the place but i still dont see any specs for them.LOL, so i have emailed them.
Peter
My Setup is as follows:
Main : 0.30mm 48,7 ohm
Generator : 0.25mm 41.1 ohm
Trigger : 0,25mm 41,1 ohm
4 Magnets only N-S-N-S Helmut
Peter,
Yeah interesting. And I thought Canada sucked for being able to by "odd" items. I guess I'm lucky, but you'd be surprised how many things I've bought off ebay from the US, simply because I can't find it here.
For your magnets, shoot for the following, if you want to stay as close as possible to Mike's:
Dimensions: 22mm X 48mm X 10mm
Grade 5 or 8 (but I think 8 is better and more common)
Ceramic, 3850 G.
I just emailed this company to see if they would ship to the UK. Just for the heck of it...you never know. Here's the item:
http://hand-tools.hardwarestore.com/67-414-magnets/ceramic-block-magnets-622911.aspx
Darren
PS. Even Amazon in the US carries these magnets !!!
http://www.amazon.com/Master-Magnetics-07044-8x1-7-Magnet/dp/B000BQM0IS/ref=sr_1_111/103-5458146-2543021?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1174260300&sr=1-111
...available at Amazon.ca or Amazon.co.uk???? NO!
Interesting Helmut.
You decided to build one inside a round cylinder?
I'm not sure that will be as efficient as the "square" design because of the air-gap loss.
Good luck with it though ;)
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on March 18, 2007, 07:35:43 PM
Interesting Helmut.
You decided to build one inside a round cylinder?
I'm not sure that will be as efficient as the "square" design because of the air-gap loss.
Good luck with it though ;)
Darren
Hello Darren
I hope that this can be a Advantage.
Because until now i did not watch ,that fluxlines,in nature follow a sharp angel.
The coil itselve is nearly after mikes setup.
At the end ,the core should spin as the others...hopefully :-\
Helmut
Hi Darren
Thanks for the magnet links,
i will bear that in mind, i will try Amazon in the future.
I can confirm the ssr is working correctly, because shorting the output terminals has the same effect as driving the input of the SSR with voltage from the psu.
With the ssr shorted all the time i am now running at 8.5 volts with a reading of about 100mA on digital meter to sustain rotation. I am using an un-calibrated variable voltage and current supply .
I won the scope ;).
Peter
PS is it worth me trying the high gain Q1 with increased base resistor.
Helmut.
This is true, although with a high-permeability core, flux can be engineered to flow where we want.
My understanding of how to maximize both the generator and motor effects in this device is to have both the magnet pole face and coil windings as parallel to each other as possible. The shape of the coil on the ends is of no real concern, but ideally will be perpendicular to the magnet pole face to minimize interaction.
I guess that's why a square shape makes sense in this case.
And note that in practice, square cores are used all the time for transformers etc.
But having said this, I'm sure yours will run also. ;)
:) Darren
Peter,
Have you tried taking L3 and the SSR out of the circuit? How well does the motor work with just L1, L2? Do you have a cap in there as well? Try taking it out too if there is one.
See what it takes to run the motor now, and use that as a baseline.
I think one of the first goals after building the motor will be to see if it will run on 6V, as that is apparently what Mike's ran on. Do you agree?
It's interesting that the motor runs better with the SSR shorted. You're kinda shorting out one of the FWB diodes through L3 and D2 by doing that. But 8.5V @ 100mA is good so far ;) It also seems right in line with my model, because looking at the Q3-C current with the new inductance values, it is roughly a square-wave of current between 0mA and 80mA with a 6V supply voltage.
As far as adjusting Rb, I'd leave that at 10 Ohms for now. Just to stay in line with Mike's setup. You can always do the tweak later. Altering Rb will change the waveforms too.
Congrats on the scope ;)
Darren
Quote from: Peterae on March 18, 2007, 04:40:22 AM
Hi Sam
good luck with your new build, on your working motor what was your min voltage that causes the rotor to run constantly.
It will be interesting to see the difference the new magnets make on your machine, mine are unknows so could be a possible problem, i think i will look around today for a source.
I'm going to try and balance my rotor today
Peter
Hi Peter
My motor will run on 2 x 1.2v AA rechargeables. It ran (albeit slowly) for seven days on the same batteries. I spent a lot of time balancing the rotor and fitting a reasonably heavy flywheel.
Although it runs well under power I believe it has the wrong coil magnet ratio, as evidenced by the waveforms. The only thing that seems to change the waveforms is adding or removing magnets, but that can only go so far. I can't really do anything with the coil without damaging it. My 3 coils ended up at around 150 ohms each but the magnets (2 stacked) are only 1500 gauss. I think getting the right magnet coil ratio is the most important for a successful build.
So?another motor it is.
Cheers
Sam
re: magnet shop for shipment in EU
The other day I ordered some magnets from
http://www.ibsmagnet.de/
I rang them up after inserting the order and offered to pay in advance (to save on addtional charges) and they posted them from the shop im Germany to Italy with no problems.
(note: I am not in any way affiliated with the shop)
Sam,
That's encouraging to know that this motor can run on as low as 3 volts or so. Did you happen to monitor the current? I would guess you were using no more than 20mA.
So the waveform shape changes when you stack more magnets?
Keep your 150 Ohm coil around in case you want to try it again later.
Are you going to wind your next coil like Peter's?
Regards,
:) Darren
Hi Darren
been out most of the day, im going to tidy up my work bench, and get on with testing, i will take my cap out and the FWB and do tests with L1 and L2 only.
I hand a bit of an idea, not had chance to look into it yet, The main problem for people without Lathe and Mill is building a low friction Rotor, well i'm hopeing that roller scate wheel might be the correct diameter, you can buy these with low friction race bearings, all one has to do is glue magnets onto them, i can feel another rotor build comming when my magnets arrive.
Peter
Ok
Ive got me nuts and washers on, ive runit for half an hour now spraying WD40( a light Penatrating oil) at the bearings,and it just about sustains rotation at 4.5 volts, the current is very pulsed, if i set my meter to log the highest peak current it logs 25 mA.
This is only L1,L2 connected no cap.
Hi Sam
Wow 3 Volts.Good luck with the your next coils.
I think what ever it is about Mikes motor , i think it's going to be the coils that are the most crucial, but of course there are things like friction that i have seen can make all the difference, ive gone from 17.5 volts un balanced with new bearings to 4.5 volts with a balance and freeing the lubrication inside the bearings.
Peter
Quote from: Peterae on March 19, 2007, 01:33:17 PM
Ok
Ive got me nuts and washers on, ive runit for half an hour now spraying WD40( a light Penatrating oil) at the bearings,and it just about sustains rotation at 4.5 volts, the current is very pulsed, if i set my meter to log the highest peak current it logs 25 mA.
This is only L1,L2 connected no cap.
Hey Peter, nice going. You're getting a fine-tuned machine now by the sounds of it. I like the roller skate idea. Let us know how that works out, I might try that myself.
How fast is your meter? I just don't trust meters myself, unless I have been able to directly compare it to a scope measurement. Actual peaks could be significantly higher than what the meter is telling you. Most run of the mill meters don't respond well beyond a few kilohertz at best, unless they are spec'd much higher. When you get your scope, use a small series resistor with your battery and monitor the voltage across this sensing resistor with your scope.
Maybe a next step can be to systematicly add back into the circuit L3, bridge and cap and see how your running current is affected.
Darren
Hi Darren
The meter who knows, it was high spec bench meter i bougth about 25 years ago LOL.
I agree there is no way im going to get an acurate reading.
Ive just put a rubber bung on as a small fly wheel and glued a magnet on it, just finished re balacing for the magnet, only put 1 on at moment, i can alter the timing by undoing the nuts and turning it, im going to mount the Hall sensor next and power this seperatley and hook upto a home made frequency counter to moitor the rpm, i have to say that before when every thing was hooked up and the SSR was engerized it went a lot faster and lower current, it will be real interesting to see what happens now it's balanced.
Looking forward to the scope arriving, if you want a link to ebay item let me know.
I had an email saying it was shipped today.
Peter
PS connecting the cap does not make any difference to the rotational speed or sustainable speed,makes the current a bit more steady.
(http://mags001.jpg)
I was thinking about the magnet arrangement on this motor. It seems like there are two basic possibilities for the flux pattern, per the attached sketch.
Depending upon the spacing of the magnets, it looks like one of the two situations will occur. I'm not sure why this is bugging me, but it is. Has anyone given any thought to this? Any comments?
Hi
DB
its beyond me at the moment,im wearing my brain out testing LOL.
Cap only connected 4.5v 25mA
Cap + FWB + main coil hooked to FWB no apparent change to V or I
SSR shorted 4.5v 40mA much increasing revsm which allows me to turn down v to 4 v at which it draws 35mA.
Not tried the SSR switched yet.
Peter
No... Thats actually not what the flux fields look like on that kind of armature. The flux will flow from one magnet to the next to form a ring. Your flux drawing represents a monopolar armature. If you post the magnet dementions and materials/grade info, I will run a flux simulation tonight and post it here.
~Dingus
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 19, 2007, 05:14:54 PM
No... Thats actually not what the flux fields look like on that kind of armature. The flux will flow from one magnet to the next to form a ring. Your flux drawing represents a monopolar armature. If you post the magnet dementions and materials/grade info, I will run a flux simulation tonight and post it here.
~Dingus
My drawing is (supposed to be) like the armatures typical of this motor. 6 magnets, poles facing out, alternating. I don't see how this will form a ring. I guess I'm not an artist!
DB,
I think your sketch #1 is what you're going to see. As there is more spacing between each magnet, there will be flux loops within the same magnet as well as to the adjacent magnets.
Darren
Quote from: dingbat on March 19, 2007, 05:37:35 PM
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 19, 2007, 05:14:54 PM
No... Thats actually not what the flux fields look like on that kind of armature. The flux will flow from one magnet to the next to form a ring. Your flux drawing represents a monopolar armature. If you post the magnet dementions and materials/grade info, I will run a flux simulation tonight and post it here.
~Dingus
My drawing is (supposed to be) like the armatures typical of this motor. 6 magnets, poles facing out, alternating. I don't see how this will form a ring. I guess I'm not an artist!
Could you give me a rough length/width/hieght/material of each magnet?
Then I can SIM it later in FEMM, and post what the flux looks like...
Most people are using magnets that are approximately 3/8 to 1/2" thick, by 1" by 2", #8 ferrite, I think. Some have rotors where the magnets are almost touching at the corners, others have maybe 1/4" space on each side of the magnets.
Some are using the "Radio Shack" rectangular magnets that are about 1/4 thick by 3/4 x 1 or so, and stacking two of them. I do have some of these magnets that I could use.
Hmmmmmm... Interesting flux patterns...
Quote from: z_p_e on March 19, 2007, 12:15:26 PM
So the waveform shape changes when you stack more magnets?
Keep your 150 Ohm coil around in case you want to try it again later.
Are you going to wind your next coil like Peter's?
Regards,
:) Darren
Hi Darren
Regarding the magnets affecting the waveform, I was trying different things to see if I could get rid of the flat bottom on my waveform for L3.
Nothing seemed to effect it ? different diodes, transistors, resistors, etc. When I placed some small neo?s on top of the rotor magnets, the bottom of the waveform started to curve. See shots attached. I also removed one of the two stacked ferrite magnets from the rotor to observe the effect.
My next coil is gong to be L1&L3 -#30 @40ohms, L2 -#28 @46ohms which is as far as I can determine what Mike had. I will also be using the Radio Shack magnets he used.
Incidentally, I was playing with comparisons to Mike?s D2 scope shot and found that if I flipped it both horizontally and vertically, it looked more like one of my D2 shots.
Cheers
Sam
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 19, 2007, 06:47:06 PM
Could you give me a rough length/width/hieght/material of each magnet?
Then I can SIM it later in FEMM, and post what the flux looks like...
Hi DM
Would you be so kind as to run your flux sim on my rotor.
I think my magnets are too thin, with too much space in-between which may be causing my waveforms to be more pointy than normal.
Many Thanks
Sam
Hi Sam
just incase you missed my previous post Skate board wheels are 53mm and come with race low friction bearings :) ideal for glueing magnets on.
Peter
Quote
I think my magnets are too thin, with too much space in-between which may be causing my waveforms to be more pointy than normal.
Many Thanks
Sam
I think so too. I don't know if we can conclude that the pointy waveforms are bad, but I think the spacing is why yours are pointy, and why they flatten out between the poles. I think your flux will look more like #2 in my earlier diagram. It will probably affect how you have to set your hall sensor timing.
Hi All
I have been following this thread with great interest.
Forgive me if I am deviating from the topic,
(feel free to move my posting to a new thread if required)
but I think my question might be benificial to all readers:
What is your opinion on the Hans Coler 'Magnetstromapparat' and 'Stromerzeuger' ?
Apparently the Stromerzeuger could obtain an output of 6 kilowatts indefinitely,
with an input of a few watts from a dry battery.
Unfortunately this device was destroyed in WWII but a British Intelligence report was declassified a few years ago
which confirmed the existence of this invention and independent verification by two scientists, and the report also includes limited schematics.
Refer http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/coler2.htm
Full report: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3752/hcoler1.htm
Has anyone on this thread already tried to replicate the Coler invention?
Understanding Hans Colers' invention can maybe assist us in better understanding what happened with Mike's motor,
or are these two inventions too far way from each other?
Sam,
After looking at your last waveforms, I can see what is causing the flattening of one excursion of your waveform.
It appears that you have one diode backwards somewhere, or that there is one bad diode. Could even be possible that one diode is actually a zener, or a bad diode that is zenering.
You will notice that when you use less magnets, the waveform becomes more sinusoidal (see L3_less_mags_37). This indicates that the amplitude of the waveform is causing a diode junction somewhere to conduct. You would see the same effect if you could somehow lower the windings, or increase the air gap. Try slowing the rotor down by hand while it is running, and I bet you'll eventually see a nice clean sine wave, with the spikes.
Anyway, I think the "problem" you are seeing has nothing to do with your magnet spacing nor the coil inductance.
Remove the fwb and spin the rotor by hand while monitoring L3 with your scope. You should have a more or less sine wave now. There should be NO flattening. If there is, then L3 is being severely loaded by something on this one excursion. If it looks ok, now insert the fwb again and see if your flattening returns. With a good bridge, there should be little affect to the wave shape.
btw, what are you driving on the output side of the fwb?
You are using a 10X probe, so I suspect that we are looking at 1V/div , and not 0.1V/div ? If so, then you'll notice your "clipping" is occuring at about the knee voltage of a diode junction.
Darren
Quote from: Peterae on March 20, 2007, 07:23:09 AM
Hi Sam
just incase you missed my previous post Skate board wheels are 53mm and come with race low friction bearings :) ideal for glueing magnets on.
Peter
Thanks for the tip Peter. I think I've got some old skateboard wheels somwhere and I'll check them out. I'm glad to hear you got your motor running on 4.5v. It looks like you are on your way.
Cheers
Sam
Quote from: dingbat on March 20, 2007, 07:21:45 AM
It will probably affect how you have to set your hall sensor timing.
Hi DB
I have been experimenting with the hall sensor timing, and it does not appear to have a great effect on the waveforms. Although I have still not received the Crouzet relay and am using a 3132 bipolar hall sensor with another ssr.
Originally I had the three sensor magnets on the flywheel positioned at 15 degrees forward of the south rotor magnets which caused the hall trigger to correspond with each spike on the waveform. However this did not change the waveform. Moving the flywheel magnets to 20 degrees forward of South, caused a slight curvature of the top flat part of the waveform taken at D2 - bringing it closer to Mike's.
Cheers
Sam
Quote from: z_p_e on March 20, 2007, 07:55:04 AM
After looking at your last waveforms, I can see what is causing the flattening of one excursion of your waveform.
Hi Darren
Many thanks for your diagnosis. I will have a close look at the diodes.
Cheers
Sam
Sam,
What circuit are you working with? (I'm losing track of what everyone is doing!)
Are you using Mike's original modification of the Bedini, or some other circuit?
db
@SPP-48
6x12x150 mm Ceramic #8 magnets
53 mm rotor core
Dingus,
Was the core the same material in both models?
Can you do the first one again with a ferrous core? If you are really feeling ambitious, maybe both of them with a ferrous core?
db
Quote from: dingbat on March 20, 2007, 01:06:11 PM
Sam,
What circuit are you working with? (I'm losing track of what everyone is doing!)
Are you using Mike's original modification of the Bedini, or some other circuit?
db
Hi DB
I am definitely using Mike's modified Bedini-Cole circuit except that I still don't have all the exact components. These are my current substitutions:-
Diodes : 1N4004 (Also tried 1N4148)
Transistors : 2N3055(NPN), MJ2955(PNP) also tried MPSA069( NPN) and MPSA56(PNP).
Relay: RSR2ND-A24003
Hall Sensor: 6340 bipolar (also tried 3503 unipolar)
Capacitor: 6 x 10,000uF 50v
Bridge Rect: RBV-602
I have ordered the Crouzet relay from the UK but have been unable to locate the 1N910 diodes anywhere.
I would appreciate any assistance with recommended substitutions or suppliers that will ship to Australia.
Cheers
Sam
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 20, 2007, 07:33:55 PM
@SPP-48
6x12x150 mm Ceramic #8 magnets
53 mm rotor core
Wow - many thanks Dingus - definite gaps in the flux between the magnets.
Cheers
Sam
Sam,
That 1N910 diode is supposed to be a 1N914B diode, but a 1N4148 will work the same.
Out of curiosity, you tried a couple different transistor types. Did it make any difference to either the waveforms or motor performance?
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on March 20, 2007, 11:58:59 PM
That 1N910 diode is supposed to be a 1N914B diode, but a 1N4148 will work the same.
Out of curiosity, you tried a couple different transistor types. Did it make any difference to either the waveforms or motor performance?
Darren
I'll put the 1N4148 diodes back on, as I didn't have the scope when I tried these previously.
I could not detect any change whatsoever with the different transistors. The ones I tried (MPSA06 & MPSA56) were supposed to be alternatives for the MPS8099 & MPS8599 specified in the Bedini-Cole Circuit.
Sam
The real question here is: What was the original rotor/magnet configuration? Anyone have a photo with an object in it to use for digital size refrencing? What kind of flux pattern are you guys looking for? How large is the buffer zone between the windings and the rotor?
I'll re-sim both models with a ferrous core tomorow at work... Altho IMHO it would be easier for me to design a rotor for who ever would like to use it with of the shelf parts in a simulation. All I would need to know is what kind of flux pattern are you looking for: many peaks or a smooth cylinder?
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 21, 2007, 04:38:39 AM
The real question here is: What was the original rotor/magnet configuration? Anyone have a photo with an object in it to use for digital size refrencing? What kind of flux pattern are you guys looking for? How large is the buffer zone between the windings and the rotor?
I'll re-sim both models with a ferrous core tomorow at work... Altho IMHO it would be easier for me to design a rotor for who ever would like to use it with of the shelf parts in a simulation. All I would need to know is what kind of flux pattern are you looking for: many peaks or a smooth cylinder?
I don't think we know exactly the construction of Mike's rotor. I would say it is more similar to your first simulation than the second as far as magnet size and spacing. I don't recall whether there is any information on the materials in his rotor.
I do recall some of John Bedini's posts saying to use a ferrous rotor, but almost nobody is doing that.
As for what kind of flux pattern we want, I don't know. I'm trying to understand how changing some of the basic parameters of the rotor changes the flux pattern. In a normal motor we would want a high flux density where the coils intersect the rotor. With this motor I'm not sure.
It is clear that the spacing makes a big difference from what you did already. With the closer spacing we got a lot more flux density off the face of the magnets. I am wondering whether changing the core to something magnetically conductive will cause more or less flux out where the coils are passing by.
I still suspect that the flattening of Sam's waveforms has something to do with the drop of flux between the magnets because of his spacing. I still don't know that it really matters either.
I have been struck all along by how sinusoidal Mike's waveforms were. I did not expect that from seeing the motor. I expected something more like what Sam is getting. That is partly what made me start to wonder about what the exact flux pattern is or should be.
If it is trouble to do the extra sim's, don't worry about it.
Something i notice in the film is Mike is using the Black and Green terminals on the breadboard to power the electronics, but in the static build he uses red and black, what does the green terminal do on that type of bread board, how does it connect to the prototype area.?
Peter
Peter,
Those colored terminals are not connected to anything on this breadboard. The user must place jumpers from there to the board rails of choice.
I have this very same breadboard.
Darren
Hi Darren
that explains it then, so it doesnt matter which he uses.
Peter
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 21, 2007, 04:38:39 AM
The real question here is: What was the original rotor/magnet configuration? Anyone have a photo with an object in it to use for digital size refrencing?
Hi DM
I have been trying to draw up Mike's motor to scale, so that my next motor will be as close to his as possible.
The attached drawing is based on scaling the photo so that the magnets match the Radio Shack ones which I am led to believe he most likely used.
It looks like the magnets would have to be embedded into the rotor if he used that size block magnets.
Sam
Great stuff Sam
Just what is needed.
Peter
I think I know how this works!
Looking carefully at the video, I suspect there are some power wires under the carpet to make it look like it is overunity.
I put the inventor of this motor in the same category with the inventor of the Methernitha Testatika Machine.
Honestly people..Do you think that if you invented a machine that was over unity or very efficient in power conversion, then you put working mechanism on an excellent board as this one and not explain how it works? No you wouldn't nor would I. If certain individuals or groups of people say they have it and use some lame excuse for not discussing it totally and honestly then that person or group of person are "Snake Oil Salesman". They are not telling the truth pure and simple.
Anything that sounds to good to be true.....usually is.
I am not saying it is impossible to reach unity or perhaps overunity but if you post your machine on this board and say this is it, then PROVE IT with discussion and openness.
Quote from: dingbat on March 21, 2007, 06:58:26 AM
Quote from: Dingus Mungus on March 21, 2007, 04:38:39 AM
The real question here is: What was the original rotor/magnet configuration? Anyone have a photo with an object in it to use for digital size refrencing?
I don't think we know exactly the construction of Mike's rotor.
Exactly what I am talking about. Where is Mike and why doesn't he just tell everyone. A hand sketched drawing on a napkin will be ok...JUST TELL US. Tell us Mike...then you can ask us all the question, "Whose your Daddy now?"
@ dcmayfield
Everyone's entitled to their opinion as to the authenticity of what Mike presented to us.
However, his behaviour leading up to the point he disappeared is not consistent with someone who was trying to deceive. He had nothing to gain by it either, so what would be the point?
I assure you Mike is alive and well, and trying to figure how he himself did it.
@ Sam,
I've already done a similar dimensional analysis as you have done, and I posted my findings. In my analysis, everything fits; no embedding required.
One thing you have overlooked is the flange on the rotor. That is not where the diameter measurement should be taken as you have apparently done.
@ All, Feel free to use whatever coil details and dimensions, and magnet size you like; I'll be using what Mike used, and I've already posted all that is necessary to do just that.
Darren
Quote from: z_p_e on March 21, 2007, 05:13:01 PM
@ Sam,
I've already done a similar dimensional analysis as you have done, and I posted my findings. In my analysis, everything fits; no embedding required.
One thing you have overlooked is the flange on the rotor. That is not where the diameter measurement should be taken as you have apparently done.
Darren
Darren
You are right. Mike used a plastic wire spool as a rotor which I have now noticed in this other photo. There is no embedding, but this should not effect the overall dimensions.
Sam
QuoteThere is no embedding, but this should not effect the overall dimensions.
Sam
Right. Your width and height dimensions are exactly what I posted, only yours are in metric, and mine were in imperial. So your rotor diameter dimension is in error, and should be somewhere between 48-51 mm.
How did your troubleshooting go....find anything odd? Is your L3 waveform sinusoidal when spinning the rotor by hand?
Darren
Hi Sam
the only thing i will say with your diagram something must be wrong with the side elevation view because there should be gaps between the magnet.
Peter
Some interesting reading.
http://www.explorepub.com/articles/beardon/overunity.html
Peter
Heres an extract from Howard Johnsons web site relating to Permanent Magnet motors.
Maybe relavent.
When the air gap of the permanent magnet motor is increased, a curious but definite change takes place. There is a large decrease in the reading at south pole of the armature and an increase in the reading at the north pole. Thus, a Hall-effect sensing probe will give a higher gauss reading at the north pole and a decreasing count at the south pole. This helps explain why the thrust is better with a larger air gap than a smaller one. The attracting field is minimized and will not produce a locking force, while the repulsion of the crescent magnet is great enough to generate a thrust vector component that will drive the armature.
Peter
Quote from: dcmayfield on March 21, 2007, 03:46:25 PM
Looking carefully at the video, I suspect there are some power wires under the carpet to make it look like it is overunity.
I put the inventor of this motor in the same category with the inventor of the Methernitha Testatika Machine.
Honestly people..Do you think that if you invented a machine that was over unity or very efficient in power conversion, then you put working mechanism on an excellent board as this one and not explain how it works? No you wouldn't nor would I. If certain individuals or groups of people say they have it and use some lame excuse for not discussing it totally and honestly then that person or group of person are "Snake Oil Salesman". They are not telling the truth pure and simple.
Anything that sounds to good to be true.....usually is.
I am not saying it is impossible to reach unity or perhaps overunity.......
I suspect that you have not heard of the SMOT ramp.
Paul.
Well me roller skate bearings arrived today, i am now running at 4 volts 17-19mA.
Using my circuit from the film. I cant see any performance change from the SSR timing, so something is wrong with the circuit i have , not tried Mikes circuit yet, i will do that once my scope is here and i have done checks.
Peter
That's good progress Peter.
Keep up the good work ;)
Darren
PS. Could you update us with a new pic?
Hi Darren
Will do soon, my camera is at work at the moment, i need to bring it home first, also i missed the scope today, no one in, have arranged for delivery tommorow, and will super glue the MRS to the front door when i leave for work in the morning. ;D
Peter
Quote from: z_p_e on March 21, 2007, 11:53:01 PM
How did your troubleshooting go....find anything odd? Is your L3 waveform sinusoidal when spinning the rotor by hand?
Darren
Darren
I have replaced the diodes. No change. Spinning the motor manually gives L3 an entirely different waveform than when the motor is running off a battery. Pic attached.
While I'm waiting for components for the new motor, I just bought 12 more magnets identical to the ones on my existing rotor which I will fix in the gap between the existing magnets. That will reduce the gap between magnets to just a few mm.
Are you any closer to building a motor?
Cheers
Sam
Hi
I think i have found something that makes Mike's film seem Genuine.
My circuit seems to stop switching correctly below 2.5 volts, (altho i cant prove it without my scope).The SSR needs at least 3volts to work according my data sheet.
If you look at the video carefully, at the start of the video he shorts the cap out, and hand spins the rotor, well if you watch the strobe effect on the rotor it doesnt accelerate untill his volt meter reads about 4.25 ish volts(It free wheels while charging the cap).
I am seeing this effect with my motor, it doesnt accelerate until the voltage is over 4 volts.(but will free wheel,but of course i have a variable psu connected :()
Peter
Sam.
Judging from these latest waveforms, it is obvious there is something not quite right with your L3 coil...do you agree?
Are you sure everything was disconnected from L3 when you were spinning the rotor by hand?
Try this test with no battery, capacitor, SSR, D2 or FWBR connected to the circuit. Eliminate all possible loading points on L3.
Re. my motor, I'm tracking some more wire at the moment.
Darren
Quote from: dcmayfield on March 21, 2007, 03:46:25 PM
I think I know how this works!
Looking carefully at the video, I suspect there are some power wires under the carpet to make it look like it is overunity.
I put the inventor of this motor in the same category with the inventor of the Methernitha Testatika Machine.
Honestly people..Do you think that if you invented a machine that was over unity or very efficient in power conversion, then you put working mechanism on an excellent board as this one and not explain how it works? No you wouldn't nor would I. If certain individuals or groups of people say they have it and use some lame excuse for not discussing it totally and honestly then that person or group of person are "Snake Oil Salesman". They are not telling the truth pure and simple.
Anything that sounds to good to be true.....usually is.
I am not saying it is impossible to reach unity or perhaps overunity but if you post your machine on this board and say this is it, then PROVE IT with discussion and openness.
Mike got a lot of attention for it, but the only thing he forgot to do was sell the materials needed to build it. Anyways I'll give him or anyone else that gets this thing working $2500 if they can show me(in person).
Hi
and its a good thing he didnt offer to sell all the bits to do it, as he wouldnt have sold many, because everone would have thought it a scam.
That's what happens if you start tieing money to any of this stuff, the only way he could make a bit of money is to write a book LOL.
Peter
I can understand the skepticism exhibited by dcmayfield.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The alternative energy scene is fraught with fraudulent devices and false claims.
Wait for the replications of the Bedini Window Motor to stack up. If it is real it will be replicated by others and will preform as reported.
Better yet, pull the parts together and try it yourself. It seems simple enough to build.
I just may try a replication myself.
QuoteAll components are the same except for the added parts a hall IC and a ss relay and also third winding.
Leads me to beleive now ther is no extra diode in the circuit.
Since he useed the gen coil to start up the cap charge, then the switching charged the capacitor faster. and before running the thing says he switched the cap charge back to the battery at the proper time, thus reducing the current use untill he got the effect he found in wich the timing is then used strictly on the cap. This tells me he switched the cap out of the main curcit until the proper time.
in other words was charging the cap and switching it into the curcit at the right time to use cap charge to run circuit, instead of battery.
This means the gen coil is directly conected to the rectifyer. and the switch to curcit is such that the curcit is not on at all times with the switch engaged. In other words has it switched to normal onn switching it off saving current flow, posibly causeing and using the oscilations to further enhance charging Remeber what happens in one coil will transformer to the other.
Note I am Roystermule on the other form.
I have dumped all ideas diagrams etc on this mess and now starting over.
I will note that droping the bias by bring the curcit to positive creates an so far unstable oscilation when the triger curent transistor is brought to the right currrent leval. Such could be involved in this. So far not sure.
I have also noticed that the voltage levals can cause the circit to oscilate. It is voltage dependent and coil related.
Well so far this stuf is fun so I will continue.
An add on I forgot. Were in the curcit can the generated current on the main coil, triger coil keep the sytem working?
Ok looking over the original circuit thetriger transistor is used to create the higher charging effect by removing the diode and reversing the triger coil. Creates a switch that will trun off and on shorting the main coil during generator mode. Note one must reverse the trigger coil to get it to switch like this. Adjust the resistor to your coil will also have to be done. One could run the device with a secondary drive with a scope across the main to get this switching to be most effective with out any power conecter to curcit.
Note this makes atthe emmeter of the transistor the turn on of due to when it flows it shorts the main coil. An interesting tranformer effect to cause with the generated current to sped up the charge of the curcit.
Note the diode should be removed from the curcit. Hence were the diode comes from.
I think I understand but how about a schematic to be sure?
McGiver30
So far I am back to the original Bendini circuit without rectifyer conected, and no power trying to figure out wer the gen coil can go in a common emiter pnp curcit driven by the motor spining and the magnetic induction that can operate the common pnp amp. Were would the best place be to stick in the coil, or to create a switching to give the charge rate Mike shows in the vidio.
So far I am leaning that he put the coil on the pnp emiter parallel with the triger coil. Such would asist in the drive pulse.
It can also be switched with the resistor in the pnp collecter to npn. Still looking at how the set up will charge the cap the fastest.
Note something Mike asked as well as following other staments by him such as was how fast does the cap charge free handing it to six volts.
Well it make reason when I look at the vidio and see one side of the switch conected to battery.
I am now realy woundering about them little dots about the line in one scope shot. I am hoping folks do figure this thing out and there is not a hp transmiter around.
Just a note it is the three coils that can cause enough current to charge the cap. If these can not do it were is that charge coming from?
Ahh I am going twords mistake as in meter charging ( note charge rate does not happen until spin) But have seen some strange damage to digital meter myself; or one of them coils is picking up current from somewere.
Well i posted on the other form that the coil and switch are simple placed batween the rectifyer and the positive of Capacitor in the original vidio.
If this thig ran itself it is due to curcit in the SS relay, and folks we do not have numbers or scematics for that.
We do not know if it was transformer coupled or optical coupled much less which set up was the switching through.
I am now at 90 percent that it is a fake, thought the black box (switch) is still keeping me woundering.
Simply put folks that cap chage rate is unusual to say the least. Only validity to mikes vidio is that he thought simple that the coil switched of for the drive cycle was running this mess. It simply could not have done it. The only other part in wich he changed was the switch, and other componets after they failed. Hmm I am woundering it the original switch could have made it run. Ahh the flustration of wanting to belive.
Been looking into Solid state relays, Hmm some interesting things with the snuber, start up protection stuff.
Such can modify the wave form to better charge the cap.
The overvoltage protection on these items could have an interestig effect on the flyback espeacaly with the gen coil conected,
Funny thing is such curcits for use on this device will be frequency selective.
(http://superpolewave.jpg)
A guy posting on gn0sis.com is now able to produce this waveform. It looks pretty interesting when compared to Mikes "D2" waveform.
It appears that the S1 timing is about 180? out though.
Darren
If you un-invert Mike's back to the original polarity the shape of the waveforms are very similar (keep in mind that mike was switching once every 3 cycles, this one is once per cycle). The guy's circuit is different than Mikes, but judging by the shape of his waveform he is possibly getting closer to what Mike had.
Also, don't know where the scope was connected.
His "spike" is much higher (lower?) amplitude than Mikes. His capacitor is charging to 40v or something like that. (not self running)
Well, it can be argued either way actually as to which is a closer match.
In order to keep our sanity and do an accurate analysis, waveforms MUST be non-inverted, and the scope shots presented by Mike are inverted....that's a fact.
Best to wait to see if the circuit and scope placement data become available. Then one can do a better analysis of the scope shot.
Darren
Hi clever-witted Over-Unity dot com experimenters!
I have (almost) fisnished to build my motor. Pictures to come soon.
I'm carefully testing the stuff before connecting all the wires.
I have just wired the L3 coil, the diodes bridge and the cap.
When I hand rotate the rotor I do not succeed to charge the cap as fast as shown in the Mike Vid (winmotor_full). Of course, I can charge it but too slowly.
I guess that my magnets are not strong enough. I'm using 6 ferrite magnets (about 7 cm * 2.5 cm * 1.5 cm). The gap between the rotor and the coils are about the same as Mike's. The wires diameters are also the same and the coils resistances are higher (more turns).
So I'm a little bit disappointed.
I guess I will order stronger magnets (and also leather gloves to keep my fingers safe)...:))
BTW:
I'm using the same Crouzet relay.
According to my test, this relay needs about 3-4 volts to be "operative".
So, when the cap is discharged (Vcap < 3-4 volts) the cap is "free to be charged"
until it reachs about 3-4 volts.
So, IMO, If you use a Reed relay, the cap would not been able to be charged because
this relay is "immediately operative" and will (momentarily but "firmly" - during each rotor rotation) discharge it to feed the circuit. Do you see what I mean?
Any comment?
Best
NerzhDishual,
You are already using magnets quite a bit larger than what Mike used. If your magnets are already grade 8, going to larger magnets is not going to get you any further ahead.
You are not charging the capacitor as fast as Mike did. Well, welcome to the replicators' club. If it was that easy, it would have been done already.
There is something "else" that is creating this rapid charge effect, and for now, it still remains a mystery as to what that is.
Darren
After carfull consideration and seeing that the ringing of the curcit causing a multiple flyback ring during one cycle, the advent that the snuber curcit in the new switch is not the same as the original, resistor capacitor.
It is posible that make did make this work.
He had the switcth conected to the power supply in order to cut out the second switching of the curcit. When the old switch was in the open state, a capacitor in the switch stors a charge in its own capacitor that will help in the drive of the coil, Note the flyback is what charges it, as well as why the switch does not close.
He got the thing to a constent ring on the turn off, using the gen coil and rectifyer to charge the cap, while the fly back charged the capacitor in the relay. When curcit fired the second third fourth fith, the relay capacitor supllys the voltage to turn on the main coil. Of course this is a ramp due to it will eventualy not have enough energy to fire the coil.
Now to do it with out the original switch. I see hope. A capacitor across the switch so when disconected from the positive the cap will charge, the cap is isolated from flyback so the gen coil charges.
Ahh hope exists. More experments coming.
z_p_e
Why do you think Mike original shots are inverted? Hmm main firing line drops below zero to the negative current raiseing twords positive ( low current showing as a negate to positive voltage) and when stabalized magnetic fields get the magnetic induction causing a droping effect (negative curve).
Current flow is from negative to positive so fly back will be from positive to negative.
The scope goes high to show time in the off as the current starts to flow from a positive to negative direction. As current is high,at start of flyback voltage is at peak positive decresing to zero.
Mikes shots are correct. The scope shots you are comparing was taken were Mike said he made his. Scope shot is of a super pole motor using variation (mainly bypassed diode PNP). It is the same as Mikes second switch hall conected showing same set up.
Note it is a 70 % probability and with experments higher that the second switch does not work as the original did. The snuber curcit in to original sett up may have been supling a voltage the new one will not.
hotspringstrading,
This is not a criticism, but I must say that I can not understand much of what is in your posts. Probably my defect. So having said that, I can not argue with you, because I do not understand your position.
So I'll just say that those who believe inductors de-energize in a positive direction....don't just say they do, show me!
I can show you 3 different replicators' (that's 3 different people) scope shots that clearly show the cemf spikes in the NEGATIVE direction, and my model confirms this as well.
I strongly suggest that before anyone jumps to such unfounded conclusions....do some homework and/or experimentation of your own.
I realize that many here have little electronics experience, and most likely little practise with a scope, so confusion does happen occassionaly.
Stating that Mike's scope shots are correct as presented (i.e. not inverted) is only doing a dis-service to this project, especially to those with little experience.
Darren
Easy to confuse with scope stuff. Most folks do confuse current flow as voltage. Unless you use a current probe, it is the conversion of current to voltage you see on the scope.
Part of the problem with this item.
The scope shot in question is invalad any way.
The question in this sytem is how he charges the cap so fast.
The law does come into play during the gen cycle. No way around it even with centrifical force.
The only place the cap can be charged that fast is on the flyback cycle. Even worse to do so it must go with the ringing that can be made to happen by the switching curcit going on more than the extra time.
Problem is it can not be powered by the main capacitor, so how did Mike do such.
Well after looking over diferent curcits for them solid state relays, there is anoughter capacitor that can be used.
Sollid state relay was placed between positive and collecter of PNP. This is a normal closed switch, meaning it will open (turn off) with the hall IC. Has that other thing going for it there of reducing the loss over the PNP.
The rectifyer was only conected to the third (generator) coil.
The extra diode goes across the Main capacitor of corse so it will not short it. It also alowed the capacitor in the switch to feed current in the proper direction during the motor curcit turn on that will use that capacitor charge instead of the main one.
It is still a ballance I am working on. But it does give the main an extra boost, instead of loss that will be used to drive the motor.
The problem mike has is that when he got his new switch ;the curcitry was changed in them: It most likly will not do what Mikes original switch did. What was in the original is simply a capacitor and resistor posibly a diode ( some split the ac input) so that the switch in off position is an open.
The new one uses two capacitors and a transient surge protecter. Whole diferent game. With out putting a capacitor resistor in the curcit his motor never ran itself again.
If it was not for these fact I would easly say it was faked.
The hall or switch will not even kick in untill about 4.5 volts. The switch would have to be in the open position until voltage is reached or the cap would never charge enough to run the thing.
That this thing will run itself is even still in question; if the ballance can be achived . From Mikes vidio it should.
Folks have to remeber that those solid state relays are not a switch. in the normal terms. In this case it is an unknown box of electronic parts.
QuoteThe problem mike has is that when he got his new switch ;the curcitry was changed in them: It most likly will not do what Mikes original switch did. ......The new one uses two capacitors and a transient surge protecter. Whole diferent game. With out putting a capacitor resistor in the curcit his motor never ran itself again.
I believe if you go back and read Mike's posts,
he did in fact get the motor working again with the new Crouzet relay! So that theory is irrelevant.
QuoteThe hall or switch will not even kick in untill about 4.5 volts. The switch would have to be in the open position until voltage is reached or the cap would never charge enough to run the thing.
This is a good observation. So this means the cap initially charges only due to generator action from L3 (and possibly L2 if the circuit is as Peter traced it from the video), and possibly from L2's bemf?
It seems that if the cap
could charge that quickly without the ou mechanism (i.e. S1 & Hall) to 4.5 Volts, why would the ou part even be required for it to self-run?
Darren
http://home.valornet.com/hotspringstradingie/cmkie.jpg
if you folks are using the replacment ssr it will not work due to the snuber curcit has been changed. This can be replicated. The diode is for feedback to cause the triger coil to turn on the curcit.
Mike just left out the positive conecton to were the diode is.
Added "he did in fact get the motor working again with the new Crouzet relay!'
Nope: Mike never said self runing did he?
Quote from: hotspringstrading on April 02, 2007, 04:06:23 PM
http://home.valornet.com/hotspringstradingie/cmkie.jpg
if you folks are using the replacment ssr it will not work due to the snuber curcit has been changed. This can be replicated. The diode is for feedback to cause the triger coil to turn on the curcit.
Mike just left out the positive conecton to were the diode is.
Added "he did in fact get the motor working again with the new Crouzet relay!'
Nope: Mike never said self runing did he?
No Mike didn't say later that it was self-running. Mike
never said it was self-running, he said that it ran with only a capacitor. It was
working.
Later he had a few bad components, and it was not
working anymore. Then with his new Hall, cap, and SSR, he said it was
working again. Since everyone was congratulating him on getting it
working again, we have to assume that it was
working as before, because he did not say anything to the contrary, right?
QuoteThe diode is for feedback to cause the triger coil to turn on the curcit.
This is incorrect. The diode you pointed out in the diagram does not cause Q1 to turn ON, magnetic induction to L1 does.
btw, these SSR's are normally open, not closed.
Darren
LOL
Now we get to the strange stuff. Leave out the diode in the posting. Look at were I put the cap.
Flyback current will drain both sides of it to a positive state.
Not excactly what I excpected and will have to give an electron vacume some time to sink in to see if it could be causing something in this curcit to aid capacitor charge.
To make sure folks understand the electrons are pulled out of both sides of a capacitor. Both plate will attract free electrons creating curent twords both plates.
Z_P_E are you replicating or experminting with the curcit? Yea I might confuse some folks. Reality is that whole vidio, Mikes scematic etc is confusing. Know of any one that has got it to work yet? The junction stuff on the fly back easly will confuse most folks. The energy has to come from some were, and the charge rate shown in the vidio with out a battery is almost unbelivable. Something has to cause that.
Quote from: hotspringstrading on April 02, 2007, 08:42:57 PM
Z_P_E are you replicating or experminting with the curcit? Yea I might confuse some folks. Reality is that whole vidio, Mikes scematic etc is confusing. Know of any one that has got it to work yet? The junction stuff on the fly back easly will confuse most folks. The energy has to come from some were, and the charge rate shown in the vidio with out a battery is almost unbelivable. Something has to cause that.
Yes, I've been working with a simulation model thus far. I have ordered #28 wire as I only have #30 at the moment.
Several people have got the window motor to work on a battery, and even a short period on a capacitor. Is that what you mean by "working"? If not, then I don't believe anyone has a self-runner yet, no.
I agree with you, the charge rate seems phenomenal. In my tests, it is roughly equivalent to charging the cap directly from a 6V battery through a 600 Ohm resistor or so.
Maybe his cap is/was bad? But he indicated that with his new cap it is also working, so the bad cap theory may not wash either.
John has hinted that maybe Mike's capacitor is "conditioned". Well, I wonder if that would involve hitting the cap repeatedly with 100+V spikes? Someone should ask John if this would do anything strange to these caps; he has a lot of experience in charging caps with bemf.
Darren
::)
Some food for thought.
A 47000uF cap being charged with a 7V supply through a 500 Ohm resistor, in comparison to the voltage vs. time plot taken right from the video.
Darren
Hi Darren
thats interesting, thats 14ma to charge the cap,so with my motor drawing about 20ma + supplying 14ma to charge the cap, thats 70% more energy than is being used by the motor, so once this excess energy charges the cap to 7 volts where does the excess go after that?
Or does it mean that his machine is OU only below and upto 7volts where it then neutralizes any excess energy, also does this mean it is more OU at 6 volts than at 7 volts.
Your charge graph from the film, appears to show the lower the voltage is steeper , so therefore i may be correct that it appears more OU at 4 volts than at 7.
Food for thought.
Peter
Interesting on the charge rate with out any discharge. So again it has to be higher.
The dischare is compensated a bit by part of the start up being back feed to the cap through rectifyer.
Now comes the fun part. Calculate the discharge rate on the discharge. Being this is a capacitor it will not be the same as battery.
This is why I am looking at were the ringing can be made in the curcit during that part of the cycle, such would if self driven from flyback off of something in the switch cause an extream diferance in the charge rate. The time off the flyback to discharge rate would be fast, but the devices in those switches are fast.
It is the one window that can cause a change in the charge rate to discharge of capcitor.
I might be wrong and he was just bypassing the trasistor for reduction.
This is a normal on switch that is removed during flyback to let the trasistors do there flyback thing. LOL it still does it with the hall disconected.
So why does a switch that when opened seems not to do anything have to do with this I ask?
Added the normal closed versions of these relay will not close unless a ceartain curent is reached.
QuoteYour charge graph from the film, appears to show the lower the voltage is steeper , so therefore i may be correct that it appears more OU at 4 volts than at 7.
A capacitor charging to a particular voltage always forms a curve that looks like that.
It appears that the time constant of Mike's curve is right at 5 seconds, compared to 23.5 seconds for the 500 ohms, 47000 uf.
This means his circuit charges as though a voltage is applied through a resistance of about 100 ohms, or about 60ma charging current at the start of the charging.
Well after reading a lot of results on sites I see a trend. with a capacitor in the curcuit, after letting get to speed, disconecting the capacitor, the motor will run for a longer than no voltage sorce conected.
Even mikes had to build up a charge to get the thing going. eventualy peaks. Would have been interesting to see what happened to mikes at peak.
So from here I see two thing could be posible. One is that the curcit is cut out to let the device gen and then kick in to get it back up. Kinda like a clock. If set up right it could run a long time. Strangly enough it may have been what Mike did. A current cut off to free wheel untill current reaches drive currents again.
Two he would have have to have a window that is causing current to charge that chapacitor we do not see yet. I have already mentioned were this can be done if the sytem is set up with a capacitor across the switch and the curcit at the flyback becomes a ring.
Time will tell us wich he used I suspect.
c'mon guys let this treat not die.
I'm shure a lot of people still testing this motor trying to make work even if it seems it was a fake but who cares anyways? what's important it is the union of all brains as a whole so lets keeep trying we can do it.
here is some pics of my motor:
another one
Today did the Oszilloskope arrive.... without any Kable
So it needs some more Days,that i can mesure coils and so on.
But i will continue to work on the Motor.
The next coil aqrrangement is in Planing like Tesla use to encrease
the magnetism.
Each coil dividet in several sektions and wired crossover.
There are many many options left.
And what about Mike?
Did someone make a missing anoncement.
Happy Easter
Helmut
Mike has bee gone.
I don't post here often so please bear with me.
I think some of the confusion about whether or not Mike's motor's final state was working or not working is because of an email I received from him some time back.
He said, after he was driven off, he got a ton of phone calls and emails (how anyone got his email or phone number I have no idea). I had access to it because of being able to see his private profile after he left. Even then, I had to do some investigation to get his phone number.
At any rate. Mike said he started getting nervous. Apparently some of the calls were threatening, although he didn't say that specifically.
He said he gave his motor to his "electronics instructor" for safe keeping in all the confusion. Who told him never to post anything here, or at gn0sis.com again, and to drop out of the spotlight.
Mike said he then tried to replicate his original motor using the diagrams and stuff he posted for us, and was unsuccessful.
So. His original motors final state was working, but unavailable, and his latest attempt was a failure.
That is how I understand it.
Here is an exact copy of Mike's email to me. Posted here first folks.
Quote
OK Rich,
Please give John my E-mail address not my phone number I am going to change my phone number now. It is good to see John helping the group, and I want to thank him for making his lab notes available. As for my motor, I have brought it to my Electronics Instructor for safe keeping. We have done a number of test on the motor trying to understand what is going on. My instructor pointed out to me that there is a short in the coil windings, and this is why my second attempt failed to perform. My instructor is the one who told me not to post information online anymore.
I did not fake anything the motor works as I have stated.
As for the video I made, the motor is running off the capacitor charge. The SS relay was not hooked up for the video the motor works without the SS relay but will not run as long as with it hooked up I have said this before . I put the connector on the other relay channel because I did not want it to get pulled into the rotor as this happened before.
The scope shots are not inverted as far as I know.
I have built a number of pulse motors and I like the Bedini/Cole window version the best.
My modification was not planned I was just trying different things and came up with it.
I still believe that it is not over-unity, as everyone wants it to be.
people are turning this into something its not.
My plan was to help Dom with his replication.
I will give you the specs later.
Thanks
Mike
That is the first and last email I ever got from Mike.
I hope it clears some things up.
Regards,
Rich.
@z_p_e. My apologies. You know what I'm talking about.
Rich.
Correction. That was not the first and only, it was the second and last.
Here's the first.
Quote
Hey Rich,
Please do not call my house anymore.
we will use e-mail
So much has happened after posting my window replication on your site.
I have been bombarded with telephone calls and e-mails its ridiculous.
I do not have possession of the motor, and my second attempt failed to perform.
please respond with any questions you may have and I will try to answer.
thank you
Mike
Also, I don't know if it's true or not, but rumor has it that Stefan is in communication with HMM now.
Can you confirm this Stefan?
Rich
peterae, perhaps you can put together a diagram without the SSR, based on the one you traced out from the video.
Rich
Quote from: gn0stik on April 12, 2007, 04:50:44 PM
Also, I don't know if it's true or not, but rumor has it that Stefan is in communication with HMM now.
Can you confirm this Stefan?
Rich
Hi Rich,
this is not true,
Mike did never email at all.
He was only posting in your forum , so I also did not have
his email address...
You were the only one, who had his details.
Regarding this statement to you:
As for the video I made, the motor is running off the capacitor charge.
The SS relay was not hooked up for the video the motor works
without the SS relay but will not run as long as with it
hooked up I have said this before . I put the connector on the
other relay channel because I did not want it to
get pulled into the rotor as this happened before. So as the motor was then working without the help of the SS relay,
we should be able to get a simular motor working just with the 3 coils
alone.
Maybe the magnet on the syncwheel had also an effect to the induction
into the main 3 coils ?
Or maybe it just was all a fake ?
This is amazing to me. I have no idea how he found my site then. I thought everyone that was at gn0sis had to have come from here at one point or another. My site doesn't show up in google on the first page. I've never been interested in having my site extremely active like this one. I just cant figure out where he came from or how he found my site if he didn't come from here.
Rich
I will look back over the film tommorow, it should alter my diagram, as some assumptions were placed how the SSR was connected to the Gen winding and the diode, but the fact the SSR was not connected correctly means there must be another hidden wire connected to the GEN winding to replace the path from the SSR.
Peter
In light of the new information recently, several simulations were run to see how and if a short between windings would affect the waveforms across the L1, L2, and L3 coils.
I feel a short would most likely occur at the coil ends where they were twisted and soldered together, so that is what I have simulated here.
All combinations were tried except for the negative side, as there was little change from one to the other. Two cases only are shown below for the -'ve coil connection shorts.
Ignore the voltage probe labels shown in some of the plots as they are in error due to a glitch in the program I suspect. From top to bottom, all plots are L1, L2, and L3 respectively.
Darren
Hi Darren,
Well done!
(edited)
What sort of scope are you using and what software to plot the points, I have an Owon PDS 6062 and there are no voltage scales or timebase scales?
I have a feeling that the Bin file that the scope captures is a stanard layout but I could be wrong.
Looks like L1 + L2 shorted shows the trace that Mike posted but on L1, not the motor or generator coil???
Maybe the scope shot he posted was of the trigger coil then.
I think the short was part way through the winding so the scope trace for L1 would be less pronounced.
Is it possible for you to do the same test but at 3 or 4 taps part way through the 3 windings?
Have you seen any performance improvements/degrading with any of the shorts?
Regards
Rob
Hi Rob.
I haven't got this motor built yet. What you see in my last post are "scope shots" of a simulation model I have been working with since day 1.
I could simulate shorts part way through the windings, but that would involve a fair bit of work, and I feel a short most likely ocurred at one or both of the ends where they were twisted and soldered.
I think if the scope shots Mike presented are worthy of consideration at all, then one can conclude that the short most likely occurred at the -'ve end of the windings, as this seems to have the least affect on the waveforms. However, L2+ shorted to L3+ also could be possible because the waveform is still more or less intact.
Darren
Hello tenacious, inquisitive & sharp builders!
I finished my window motor replication one week ago.
It is running ... with a battery... (and with or without the cap).
What a wonderful achievement! Is is not ? :-\
Of course, it only needs a 4.5 volt batt to run firmly but slowly.
Of course, with a 12.5 volts batt and the cap it also runs faster even when the batt is only hand-connected "from time to time" (each second or less) to re-charge the cap. (Do you see what I mean?)
Anyway : it *does not* work "by itsef" as I naively expected. :((
I have done a lot of quick-and-fuzzy tests and measurements, for example: short
cuircuited the Crouzey relay output, short-cuircuited the diode.. etc..
I must be more accurate and systematic during my next testing.
BTW : I have already built 3 SSG Bedini's motors and these gizmos can charge a big cap very fast but in that case the scope show huge spikes and I have not seen such things with my window motor.
Best
PS: Thanks to z_p_e for is comment.
More pictures at http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/
Best pictures of the full motor to come soon.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffreenrg.info%2FWindow_Motor%2FWMot1.jpg&hash=fc47a004584648823703c36eb98bb86fad57b0d5)
A test has been performed using my model to compare the charging capability of coils L2 and L3.
Both coils were connected to their own FWBR and 47000u capacitor.
No coil switching was used, just sine wave induction from the magnet to coil. Same RPM for each.
After 3 seconds, L2 charged the cap to 500mV, and L3 charged its cap to 70mV.
One could conclude form this test that Mike did indeed have the FWB connected to L2 and not L3 as he posted, and as was traced out by Peter from the video.
What then is the purpose of L3? How could Mike have gotten it so wrong on his diagram?
In my post a few pages back, it was shown that from the video, 3V was reached in 3 seconds. How could this be?
Of course bemf will help charge the cap faster, but 1) will it charge it as fast as Mike's? and 2) the transistors wouldn't start switching (creating bemf) until the +V voltage reached somewhere between 2V to 3V, so that means no bemf for the first charging phase.
One theory I pose to you is this: Mike's capacitor had a relatively high ESR. Such a capacitor could give the illusion that it is being charged very quickly, especially if monitored with a digital voltmeter. In actuality, the voltage would be quite spikey if seen with a scope.
Being that Mike reported this particular capacitor later stopped working, tends to support this theory.
Any thoughts?
Darren
At this point my confidence is waning. I think that it is likely that the Mike motor was a fake.
If everything that Mike has allegedly said is true, his teacher has the working motor. If the motor really worked as the video showed, we have not seen the last of it. It will just take time for it to come out.
I might eventually construct a window motor or a ssg motor with the parts I have purchased, and I might not. There are enough people trying and failing. I probably can't add anything to the effort by duplicating something that is proving to not work by many other people. I'm not very interested in charging batteries, and that seems to be the only way for the window motor to do anything curious.
In regards to Mike's electronics teacher, and all that suposedly transpired, if true, I suspect the teacher may be more interested in capitalizing on the achievement for either himself, or him and Mike together.
I still feel the presentation was real, and Mike did achieve something. Look at Bedini's video demo of his motor...with only the two coils, and the Bedini/Cole switching circuit, it apparently will run for many minutes on only the capacitor after receiving a hefty spin to get it all going.
Some of the replications are running on only a few milliamps, and so it may take just a little bit more to get the motor to unity or slightly above. If Lenz has little effect on this motor as John mentions in the video (if I understand correctly), then it would seem logical that the 3rd generator coil may be all that is required to push the thing over the top. From some spin tests that Peter did though, it appears that Lenz is in fact alive and well in this window motor configuration.
With good rotor balancing, flywheel effect, and bearing tweaking, it should be possible to approach 95% efficiency or so. I think perhaps one other area of investigation to improve the overall efficiency, would be to use much heavier gauge wire for the windings.
Darren
Welcome back to the TPU Darren
You really did a fantastic job here ...absolutely awesome now about those spikes
I think that the "anomaly" is the same in both units...the tpu just makes lots of them
Lindsay
Hi Lindsay, thanks.
Perhaps the TPU does take advantage of these bemf spikes and the output is perpetuated by a spike cascade back and forth from control to collector and back again in resonance?
Maybe a solid-state version of one of the Bedini motors is not too far off from or dissimilar to the TPU.
Darren
QuoteWith good rotor balancing, flywheel effect, and bearing tweaking, it should be possible to approach 95% efficiency or so. I think perhaps one other area of investigation to improve the overall efficiency, would be to use much heavier gauge wire for the windings.
Production electric motors do this every day. Most high efficiency production motors are at least 93% efficient. Larger horsepowers are even higher. There is nothing unusual about 95% efficiency in production electric motors.
I have several small motors at home and at my office that have run for 3 or 4 years on a single AA battery. They have 3 concentric output shafts running at different speeds - one running at 1 rev/min, one at 1 rev/hour, 1 at 2 rev/day. They will probably run for several more years on the same battery. I call them "clocks".
Point is, there is nothing strange about motors that run on milliamps, or even microamps - when they aren't doing any real work. A motor that is doing no work (other than spinning on its bearings) should draw zero current, other than the copper losses.
DB,
I agree that there is nothing unusual about production motors having 95% efficiencies, and I didn't state that this was unusual.
I would venture to guess that Mike's motor is/was far less efficient, so he is overcoming this low efficiency to power the motor, and still keep the capacitor charge rising.
How many clocks have you seen that run on a precharged capacitor?
AA batteries pack a surprising amount of energy compared to what can be imparted to a large cap from a light spin of the rotor.
No matter how little the load, a motor is doing real work if it is spinning. The less efficient the motor, the more power required to maintain rotation.
It sounds like you would not be satisfied to see a self-running motor such as Mike presented? What if Mike tweaked the efficiency of his motor then implemented a 4th generator coil to power a LED. Wouldn't that impress and or convince you if it was done strictly from capacitor power, and for an indefinate time period? It would impress me.
Darren
Hi (lot of positive terms) guys!
For those who might be interested in my
Non-Running-as-Expected-Mike-Modified-Bedini-Cole-Window-Motor :
This thing is slowly but continuously running while powered with 3 cheap 1.5 volts (non refillable batteries). These batts cost me - a couple of months ago - one Euro for a set of 16. Actually, I have to thrown away most of them. :-\
It drawns about 25 mili amp. The voltmeter is showing less than 4 volts under load.
It shows about 4.3 volts without load (the batts are almost dead).
BTW : this voltage is also slowly but continuously falling... :)
The RPM is about 240 (=/=4 revolutions/sec). The Crouzet Relay LED is blinking at the same rate (of course).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Else: and this is an "half backed idea" (sorry for this half-off-topic-post):
I have just made some quick measurements with my tiny, faster (but no so efficient? (as it needs about 150 mili amp)) SSG3 Bedini motor. It runs with a set of 6 reffilable 1.2 volts batts.
I can charge a 22 000 micro Farad cap at 6 volt in about 2 seconds.
At 10 volts in about 5 seconds.
AT 15 volts in about 13 seconds.
Actually : the cap voltage is slightly increasing (about 2 volts) after I disconnect the wire.
BTW : I can charge a 4700 micro F. cap at more than 100 volts. This means that the output voltage of a SSG device is far more important than a window one.
I was just wondering whether I could not mofify the circuit to have my SSG3 motor running "almost" only on a cap (after having it filled by a batt and while hand- operating a switch). This would be the first "hand driven 'selfrunning' motor"! ;D
This could be dubbed the "oxymoron motor"... Could it not be?
Some pics on : http://freenrg.info/Bedini/Replications/
Best
ND,
Nice charging with your SSG3 motor.
Any idea what your SSG3 coil inductance and resistance is?
Of course the inductance of the coils used for the SSG motor are going to be magnitudes higher than that obtained with the air-cored window motor coils. As such, the bemf spikes and charging ability will be greatly enhanced in comparison.
Darren
Hello Zero_Point_Energy
Good questions... ???
I must have the measures somewhere in my documentation (perhaps jotted down on the coil itself). But exactly where? That is another question. Yes, I'm not a scientist!
I will see or measure them again and also try my "Oxymoron Motor" tomorrow.
So : more to come soon.
Best
Another possible theory as to the quick charging seen in Mike's video:
The 47000uF capacitor is really much smaller in value. This again would point to a defective capacitor.
We were also told that after replacing the capacitor, the motor was again working. ???
The way I see it, these are the variables that affect the charging rate of that capacitor:
1) capacitor value
2) inductance of coil
3) series resistance of same coil
4) speed of rotation (rpm)
5) supply voltage at which transistors can conduct
6) magnet strength
7) magnet/coil air-gap
Note: The most work done in the charging phase is right at the beginning when the cap voltage is 0V, and this work is largely if not completely furnished by the hand giving the rotor its initial spin.
I have shown that induction only at full rpm (345 rpm), will only charge that capacitor to 500mV in 3 seconds. Somehow, 3V must be reached in 3 seconds in order to match Mike's video.
I will attempt some simulations to see what the combined induction and bemf charging will do in my model.
Darren
Some interesting test results.
A circuit model was built using only 2 coils, the Main (L2), and the Trigger (L4). L1 is used for magnet induction.
The FWBR was placed across the Main coil for capacitor charging and bemf recovery.
A more detailed examination of Mike's video was performed using a video editor, and the resulting capacitor charging plot is shown in each chart for comparison.
In Chart01 and Chart02, the induction was adjusted to result in a 6V ending voltage after 50 seconds. This gave a reasonable match with the video charge plot.
The 3 tests were done as if the rotor was driven by an external motor at a constant speed, regardless of load. The idea is to test and compare the charging capability of L2 with induction only (no switching, and no DC source), induction and switching (DC source voltage is equal to cap voltage, but is buffered, hence NO LOAD on the cap), and induction and switching taking the DC source for switching directly off the capacitor, giving the cap a real load as it would see in "normal" operation of this motor.
Chart01 shows the 47000u capacitor voltage with induction only.
Chart02 shows the cap being charged by induction and any bemf that may be occurring. The cap is being buffered here, so it sees no load. The buffered cap voltage is fed to source the transistors. It is quite evident when the transistors in the video begin switching, as can be seen by the cap voltage falling off slightly.
Note that the switching/bemf does not appear to aid in charging the capacitor. In fact, the induction had to be increased by 8% to maintain the 6V end voltage. Reason? Likely because the coil is "partially shorted" for one excursion of the induced voltage, hence reducing the charging effect.
Chart03 shows the same setup as Chart02, except the capacitor is no longer being buffered, and it is sourcing the transistors directly. Note that the capacitor voltage would normally level-off as shown, but the cap voltage in the video continues to increase and appears to recover from its earlier fall-off.
What has NOT been modeled here, is the added rotor kick imparted by the Main coil once it starts switching. This would aid in charging the capacitor and sustaining rotation, but how much is unknown at the moment. Perhaps a next step will be an attempt to model this effect as well.
Darren
Hi tenacious, kind and sharing experimenters
@Z_P_E
Thanks for your informations and your diagrams.
You were asking:
QuoteAny idea what your SSG3 coil inductance and resistance is?
My measurements are :
L2 coil : (trigger): 4.2 ohms, 4.62 mili_h (wire diameter= 0.56 m/m (I suppose)).
L2 coils : 2.4 ohms 4.59 mili_h (wire d =0.4 m/m).
A bifilar coil. The core is made of glued welding rods 'cores'.
I have tried to have it 'self run' on a pre-charged and 'hand- opened-&-closed-switch'
47000 miro_F cap.
Guess what? It *does not* work.
It would have been too simple...
--------------------
Else_1 :
I have to make some others experiments on my non-self-working-window-mot.
Actually, as I already said, it works only on 4 vols/ 25 mili_amps.
This is not a lot of watts according to the fact that le Crouzet led is blinking and that this relay circuits is drawing some mili_amps too.
Else_2 :
Are you aware of the new Peter Lindemann DVD about "Electric Motor Secrets" :
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Review:Electric_Motor_Secrets_DVD_by_Peter_Lindemann (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Review:Electric_Motor_Secrets_DVD_by_Peter_Lindemann)
And also, BTW, aware of the following comments?
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Review:Electric_Motor_Secrets_DVD_by_Peter_Lindemann#More_research_should_have_been_done_before_the_DVD_was_released (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Talk:Review:Electric_Motor_Secrets_DVD_by_Peter_Lindemann#More_research_should_have_been_done_before_the_DVD_was_released)
Sometimes I feel a little bit fed up with all of these over-unity-COP-greater-than-one
contreversies, skirmishs, strifes, clashs, combats, figthings, quarrels (I will not copy and paste the synonym dictionnary : http://dico.isc.cnrs.fr/dico/en/search (http://dico.isc.cnrs.fr/dico/en/search) :)).
Perhaps should I better give up and hunt mussels?
Best
ND,
I see, it seems your coil is made with relatively large wire, and few turns. Most SSG motors I believe are wound using lighter wire and many many turns, creating "mega-coils".
I'll check on the video and comments you mentioned.
How are you measuring your current exactly?
Darren
Hi Z_P_E
To be more accurate (as far as I'm able to be :-\:
I have made 4 'bedini-like' motors.
3 SSGs.
http://www.freenrg.info/Bedini/Replications/SSG1.jpg (http://www.freenrg.info/Bedini/Replications/SSG1.jpg)
http://www.freenrg.info/Bedini/Replications/SSG2.jpg (http://www.freenrg.info/Bedini/Replications/SSG2.jpg)
http://www.freenrg.info/Bedini/Replications/SSG3.jpg (http://www.freenrg.info/Bedini/Replications/SSG3.jpg)
And one window motor. http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/ (http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SSG1 is made from a bicycle wheel and 12 magnets.
It runs slowly. I have made very few measurement on it.
It runs on a 4.5 amp / 12.5 vols bat and seems to be able to charge 2 others same bats. I have put a bicycle speed counter to see the RPM. As I can remember this RPM is about 60-100. On the picture you can see a small analogical DC amp meter but it is not wired!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------
SSG2 is made from 'recovery' stuff (from a meteorogical wind speed sensor).
It has 8 magnets (the same used for SSG1).
It run on a 720 mili_amps/9.6 volts bat (8*1.2volts) and is able to charge 2 others same depleted batts (I have not tried to charge more batts). I have made more measurements on it. It draws about 60-80 DC mili_amps (according to a digital meter) when the 2N3055 base is tuned with the 1K potentiometer.
I have also plotted some diagrams with one input bat and one output bat. On these diagrams one can see that the output batt voltage is increasing while the input batt voltage is 'less decreasing'. Perfect!
Due to a computer crash, I have lost these diagrams (I should had them saved somewere. But Where?). As you can see I'm not so organized :-\.
Anyway, the output bat was not so charged and the measured voltage was very optimistic... I mean : When one of these bats is normally charged (grid wired) it can run a small noisy motor during about one hour and when it it charged with my Bedini SGG2 'energiser' it can run the same motor during only 15 to 20 minutes.
Ok, my batts are not in a good shape but the SSG is not given for an over-unity device. Is it?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
SSG3 is made from a computer HD. The 8*2 fridge magnets are very very weak.
Indeed the coils turns are also 'weak'.
To me it is mere gizmo. It run on a 720 mil_amp 7.2 (6*1.2 volts) batt.
I have not even tried to charge others batts with it.
It can glow a small neon bulb (which can't be seen on the picture) and charge caps apparently very fast. But if you do the maths, I bet that you will see nothing unusual.
It does not draw less than 150-200 DC mili_amps even with the 2N3055 base 1K pot tuned.
Anyway, I was puzzled with the swiftness of this (bad) SSG3 cap charging (according to the Henries) versus the slowness of the window motor.
-----------------------------------------------
About the window motor:
6 magnets. (same magnets as for SSG1 and SSG2).
The coils were wounded on a 10 cm * 10 cm cardboards. These cardboards were cut off after the winding. The coils thickness are about 2 cm.
L1 and L2 are bifilar. L3 is not (it is wounded 'alone').
L3 is placed above L1-L2.
L1 (trigger) = 85 ohms - 65 mili_H (0.25 m/m = #33)
L2 = 53 ohms - 64 mili_H (0.40 m/m = #25)
L3 = 58 ohms - 83 mili_H (0.40 m/m = #25)
H'm ? something wrong with l3? I will check it tomorrow ???
--------------------------------------------------------------
If you are interested in I can do more measurements.
Best
Hi ND.
Thanks for all your measurements and post.
I am curious how you measure your current draw because I believe this is one area where most people are getting fooled by their meters.
Most people probably do not realize that unless their meter is a true RMS meter and with a decent crest factor, their measurements will be meaningless.
If not using a true RMS meter, then the only other method is to use a current shunt and an oscilloscope.
As far as measurements, yes your L3 coil for the window motor seems suspect when compared to the L2 values. After you have sorted out these two coils, I would appreciate seeing oscilloscope shots across all 3 coils while the motor is running. Vert and Horiz settings included would be helpful also.
Obviously you have put a lot of work and effort into your motors....well done.
Regards,
Darren
One conclusion as a result of my previous capacitor charging tests:
In order to charge the 47000u capacitor to the same end voltage, and at the same rate as shown in Mike's video, regardless if bemf is helping the charge or not, the open circuit coil voltage must be 7.5Vp, or 15Vpp when running at 345 RPM.
This assumes that Mike's motor had the capacitor mainly if not exclusively charging off the Main (L2) coil, and that this coil was constructed of #28 wire with 480 turns on a 4.4" x 4.6" rectangular former.
One coil (Peter's) constructed this way had a series resistance of about 50 Ohms, and an inductance of 49.6mH. This is what I have used in these tests with my motor model.
The next challenge is to figure out how once the transistors start switching and drawing current off the capacitor, the capacitor is able to recover from this current draw and continue to increase in charging voltage.
The following is a concept-drawing of one theory I conceived and will investigate next. L2 and L3 are always in series, but coil drive is only from L2.
Darren
Hi Darren,
well done.
Yes, I guess, if Mike?s motor is not a fake,
it must besomething like your new posted schematic,
as he said, he had mainly L2and L3 in series for better charging.
Looking forward to your building results.
Good luck.
Regards, Stefan.
For reference, below are Mike's original schematic as presented to us, and an updated schematic eliminating the S1/D2 connection between L2 and L3, and showing two possible shorts as mentioned by Mike.
From Mike's original schematic, L2 and L3 could be viewed as being either in series OR parallel. The point is now moot however.
If no shorts exist between L2 and L3, then their only interaction is through mutual coupling.
Darren
Quote from: mramos on May 05, 2007, 07:50:42 AM
z_p_e
What is the power source to drive the circuit? Something must power L1. Also is there any other power connections?
This is the Bedini/Cole Window Motor, so L1 is energized by the rotor magnets.
Mike's modification apparently allows this motor to self-run from only the capacitor shown in the diagram.
These 3 diagrams are block-diagram type drawings only, and anyone that has followed or built the BCWM will probably understand them.
Darren
there was another member that claimed a self runner motor somewhere in this tread,
remember?
how come we are not trying to replicate this one?
was not a self runner motor?
can some one post a link to it since I tried to find it but I cant. :-[
in the mean time here is some videos of my motor with 1.- 1.5 v
As far as I am aware, there are no other self-runners yet (at least not on video). If there were, you would have heard about it by now, and many others would be replicating.
Darren
yes, there was another guy claiming a self runner on this tread, I think he was using an ignition coil for something in the motor, maybe a nother member will remember.
back to my motor I hope it does not wreck with that speed.lol :D
found it
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1988.msg25096.html#msg25096
I'd be interested to know what became of Ben and his motor too. Seems he was only communicating here directly through Hartiberlin. Those Google video's that were linked to aren't there anymore either. Neither is EmDevices, who seems to have left these forums because he didn't like their free-for-all uncontrolled nature. It looked (to my untrained eyes) like he was working on something very similar to Ben's device, which Harti stated was overunity. The whole thing should have been given it's own thread instead of being a side-track to this one it was in. Maybe it was overunity, but not able to produce a useful amount of energy and so just got dismissed, I don't know. Seemed to be well documented though.
Hi bright'n brainy chaps.
Penaos eman ar bed ganeoc'h? (Breton ling.).
Sorry for reacting late. I had not so much time to play with this non-self-running window motor.
However I still have blown up a meter fuse and a transistor by short-circuited the cap while forgeting this cap was not alone = my manoevre also short-circuited the bat. :-\
Well done! My job is computer programming and I have the habit of doing some silly tests. I call it 'nose' or 'rough guess' reasoning. It does not explode anything when you make a mistake. Any computer programmer here who could understand me? This was and off topic digression... :)
------------------------------------------------------------
@Z_P_E: thanks a lot for your kind comments, your clear & simplified circuit drawings and also for your suggestions. I will try your modifications.
BTW: I just have done another measurement on L3 (having forgotten the previous one).
L3 is = 58 ohms - 83 mili_H (0.40 m/m = #25). As said earlier.
I do not know wy... Because it is 'alone' and a little bit wider?
OK : I will take pictures of oscilloscope shots.
------------------------------------------------------------
I have just tried this modification:
As already said, with a 3 (small, depleted and non refillable batteries) this motor is running slowly and is drawing about 20-25 mili amps (according to an digital amp meter).
Now, with a 6*1.2 volts small batteries it is running faster (of course) and it draws 50 mili amps (according to an analogical amp meter and after being 'stabilized').
I have wired an extra 5K potentiometer in series with the 10 ohms MPS 8099 base resistor. When having this pot fine tuned the motor draws less than 40 mili amps without any discernible change in the RPM.
Why 5K? : because with 1K it changes nothing... Why?
picture : http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Tr_Base.JPG (http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Tr_Base.JPG)
------------------------------------------------------------
Else, apart Z_P_E ideas (actually: what is the use of this diode and this (strange)Crouzet relay?), I'm planning to do some other experiments.
For those who should be interested in, 2 pictures:
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Modifs_1.JPG (http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Modifs_1.JPG)
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Modifs_2.JPG (http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Modifs_2.JPG)
Best
ND,
Changing the input resistor on Q1 will affect two things remember, 1) the load seen by L1, and 2) the voltage drop across the input resistor. Both will affect the timing, but should tend to cancel one another.
Mod#1 is a little odd (two different voltage sources in parallel), but why not. ;) Mod #2 I thought about too, but decided to stay with a single FWBR.
Looking forward to your test results.
Darren
Hi all
I have been quiet recently but still busy working on the motor.
I?m not sure if this is a breakthrough of some type, or if anyone else has had this effect, but while waiting for my Crouzet relay to arrive from the UK (still) I have been trying various reed switch arrangements.
If the negative or positive connection from the capacitor to the motor is interrupted with a reed switch angled a certain way in relation to the flywheel magnet, the charging voltage shoots up very quickly when the rotor is spun manually.
The scope shot taken at D2 shows spikes of around 25v, with the multimeter reading of around 13v DC.
There is a very small tolerance in the reed switch position, and the spikes suddenly disappear if the reed is moved ever so slightly. To find the best position I held it in my fingers and moved it around the flywheel magnets until I found the sweet spot and then set up a separate stand with stainless steel wire that could be bent into position.
Here are some pics.
Cheers
Sam
In the previous scope shot the 3 flywheel magnets were aligned midway between the N&S rotor magnets. In this shot, they are aligned with the south rotor magnet. I could not get any spikes from other alignments.
Sam
Hi Sam,
interesting !
Please try to document these setups some more with schematic
and maybe if you can a video.
Do these spikes charge the capacitor or what are you doing with the spikes ?
Regards, Stefan.
Evening All,
Just signed up tonight after finding my way here via youtube. Brain overload on the old magnet motors and overunity. Im an mechanical engineer caught up in this electrical world but had thoughts 15years ago (when i was 10) on a magnet motor design - nothing happened of cause - sucked into the world of the zombie but now together with a woman that is opening my eyes i wish to join the move to make this world better.
I tried to catch up with all the threads but 91 pages is A LOT! Is there a collected document of all the information necessary to replicate mikes motor if would appreciate the link - sorry if i missed it or am miles behind - i currently have square eyes!
Think i will struggle to talk the talk but will be watching with keen interest!
@ Metaphysical,
There is no single document that has all the "right stuff". In fact, it is uncertain what all the right stuff is at the moment.
Everyone seems to have done their "own thing".
The circuit presented may not be the actual circuit and connections, because the video seems to indicate a different connection scheme, although the circuit as presented DOES match well with the presented waveforms, as per the work I've done with a simulation model.
Mike initially indicated that the motor will not self-run without the modification he implemented, then later we find out that the modification is not even connected in the video, and clearly the motor is running on its own. Also, supposedly there is a short somewhere in his coils, and may be the cause of the unexplained energy gain, but this is uncertain.
So you see, nothing is clear cut here. We're all in the same boat, and you're welcome to gather the info as many others have, and come to your own conclusions and theories.
I invite you to scan through my posts in this thread. This will give you most of the info required to build the motor at least in the mechanical sense. The actual circuit connections is still a mystery, but I'm working with the original presented diagram for now.
Darren
@ Z_P_E
Thanks for the advice, i will continue to work my way through with the intention of joining the build.
If there are any other designs or documents that people are willing to post that would be cool - standing on the shoulder of giants! ;D
Hi (lot of positive qualifying terms) guys.
First of all: are your aware of these URLS. A must read IMO. If yes, sorry for jamming the forum.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-Runner (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-Runner)
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-runner:Details (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-runner:Details)
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-runner:Window (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-runner:Window)
This (fortunate) guy, "Rick" dub itself as a "philosopher".
He says that an accurate timing process is the key.
Now, what is saying SPP-48?
QuoteIf the negative or positive connection from the capacitor to the motor is interrupted with a reed switch angled a certain way in relation to the flywheel magnet, the charging voltage shoots up very quickly when the rotor is spun manually.
And also:
QuoteThere is a very small tolerance in the reed switch position, and the spikes suddenly disappear if the reed is moved ever so slightly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Else:
@Z_P_E.
I have made some measurements on the cap charging time with L2 coil only and also with L2+L3 connected as you indicated. With l2 + L3 it charges slightly faster but not above 6 volts (in more than 30 seconds). Some graphs to come (soon?).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the few of you that could still be interested in my (non-self-working-on-a-47000-micro-Farad-Cap-Modified-Window-Motor):
I have removed this hall probe. It drew about 15 milamps. The Crouzet relay was already removed. Now my 'motor' is only drawing 26 mili amps when connected to the 7.2 bats. I will purchase a tachymeter.
I'm just wondering if these Crouzet relay and Hall probe are of any use?
Perhaps some good reed switch
es are enough?
Best (and welcome to Metaphysical).
Hy,
Yes, forget the Mike Fraud, in france we say: "It's ? charlot" !
But go to PESWiki and see Rick Friedrich Replication, it's amazing, apparently John Bedini itself say this systeme it's a real step for the Bedini Technologie Free Community.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-Runner (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Bedini_SG:Self-Runner)
I hope this schematic, help use to quickly forget the monkey Mike (HHM).
Thanks
Molux
I'm not going to get too excited about Rick's "Self Runner" until someone does some real load testing on the charged batteries. The only parameter being tested is the terminal voltage on the batteries. In my opinion this is jumping to conclusions. The terminal voltage of the batteries is not a reliable indication of the condition of the batteries.
The motor hits the charging batteries with very high voltages. I think these voltage spikes may be artificially pumping up the voltage on the batteries, without really deep charging the batteries.
I would like to see someone loading the batteries in a controlled way to discharge them a known amount, then charge them again, etc. I am only seeing claims that voltages are going up on the batteries. No testing to see whether the batteries will do anything. I have batteries that check ok on voltage that won't hold any charge. I don't think just checking the voltage is good enough to make the claims being made.
DB,
What you said seems reasonable and logical.
Maybe Rick has been rotating the batteries?
Darren
QuoteMaybe Rick has been rotating the batteries?
I don't know. I don't think so, but asking any tough questions is highly discouraged - as though you are attacking them. I am bothered by the insistence on using batteries and using terminal voltage as the indicator that something is "working". I certainly wouldn't call the system "self running" until it has run for a few years of rotating the batteries or something.
I think that what might be happening could be more of a chemical effect in the batteries than tapping the zero point. I wish a battery expert would give some opinions on what happens when you pulse a battery with spikes much higher than the battery voltage, etc.
I also find it interesting how every time they make "an advance" in their devices they get very excited, even though they supposedly did the very same thing in 1984, and hundreds of times since. If what they are doing is so passe, and they have been doing the very same thing for 20+ years, why do they get so excited? "This is really it this time (but we've been doing this all along)". It is easy get the feeling they don't even believe themselves.
I get the feeling that they are nervous about really testing the batteries because it might disprove what they are doing. There are obvious ways to prove whether or not the system is gaining energy, but they seem to avoid the kinds of tests that would prove it. (rotating batteries, discharging the batteries through known loads for given time periods, etc.)
If they can remove a battery, discharge it through a fixed resistor bank for some number of minutes, record the terminal voltage before and after the battery discharges, rotate the battery back into the system, then keep doing this with all batteries, etc., they can prove that the system works in fairly short order. If they can't show this, they really have nothing of use.
These are just my opinions, of course.
db
Hy,
Yes dingbat, it's reasonable, and several test must be accomplish before claim it !
But i think this setup is more interesting than the mike fraud, so:
Instead of spending time under a fraud, spend your time under Rick Motor it's seem more reasonable. If you read all, you can see that Rick dont rotate batteries i just remember that the supply batterie apparently dont discharge.
I'm suspicous too, but with somes replications of Rick it close the debat.
I think Mike (HHM) replication may confuse some builders that spend her time and money under a joke, Bedini itself say it's a Fraud. I think Mike Joke down the Bedini technologies. You have to change the forum title, it's not true, and so this forum seems to quality growing down for the visitors.
Why some user continue to believe in the Mike fraud ? Because all on this board as to confuse us. i think it's a mistake ! They are other things more interesting and more probably realy working.
Molux
PS: When i finish my replication i wat to do what Dingbat say, i'm very suspicious about Memory effect or other physical chimical batterie effect, i want to know if battery really charger
PS2: I dont know if you have a fixed ip, in france lot of use have this, but i think mike rebecome here to profite to his joke, but probably the administrator can view by the IP the new pseudo of this villain, ans perhaps publish ip... here we can do something with it !
PS3: Excuse my bad english expression
@DB,
I can't say I disagree with what you're saying. Guess it's time to build these things and discover for ourselves what can be done with these systems?
@Molux,
Rick's information certainly is more clear than what was presented by Mike, but Mike's apparent discovery shouldn't be dismissed quite yet. Even John hasn't completely given up on it. Can anyone be 100% certain it is fake or real?...no.
It's up to each individual if they want to continue pursuing a self-running window motor as per Mike, so please respect that.
Regards,
Darren
I agree - it is probably time to build something and do some testing. If I had the time I would. I bought enough wire and magnets to do some testing but I haven't been able to decide exactly what to build, and I don't have much spare time. I am well equipped with tools and machines, but just can't make time to get with it.
Molux,
Keep us up to date on your replication. It will be interesting to see what you find.
I also agree with Darren that Mikes motor may not be fake. It might be, but it might not be. I think if it was real, it was some kind of "cul-de-sac" type effect like Tesla experimented with. The scope shots look like there are strange ground shifts, and the circuits look like there could be times when one of the coils is not properly grounded - maybe some kind of single wire effect is taking place - like Tesla circuits.
I like Rick's newest motor because it has aspects of the window motor, and aspects of the ssg motor. Makes it versatile for testing. I may do something like it if I get time. Only drawback is it takes a lot of wire to go all the way around the bike wheel with the window winding.
db
I all,
Ok, i have understood under the John Bedini vid?o have demonstrate completly the Fraud, but effectively perhaps i dont understand all very well. I'm going to investgate more about that. Here the famous video: http://www.syscoil.org/index.php?cmd=nav&cid=58 (http://www.syscoil.org/index.php?cmd=nav&cid=58).
But why does Mike dont appear just after the demonstration ?
Last days, i spend my time to buy pr?conized mat?rial, for exemple in france Lincoln R60 are not easy to find, and John Bedini say painted iron bars are not very well ! another exemple the copper sell in small quantity, etc... But when my replication are ready i say to you and i share my informations.(good or not)
Under all, you have right, everyone do what he want...
Molux
can i throw a oddball in here?
took me a couple of days to read the entire thread.....other things going on as well
since a few of you have reps working with bat, i was wondering if a slight change on another build might do anything:
instead of winding all 3 coils into one large mass, how about having either L2 or L3 wound separate and place it at an angle to the others?
darren, how much trouble would it be for you to affect that kind of change in your sim?
Quote from: charlie_r on May 19, 2007, 06:20:15 PM
darren, how much trouble would it be for you to affect that kind of change in your sim?
charlie_r,
That would not be too difficult if I understand correctly what you want to do. You want to advance or retard (re-position in time) either L2 or L3?
If so, I would decouple this coil from the other 3, add a second induction coil and either add or subtract phase angle to this second induction coil's generator (relative to the other generator) to create the angle offset.
What would this change/test accomplish in your opinion?
Darren
Hi bunch of clever, sharp-witted, brainy and ingenious chaps...
I do agree with all of your recent posts.
OK. That's ain't thinking.
Anyway:
1) (Dingbat):
QuoteThe only parameter being tested is the terminal voltage on the batteries. In my opinion this is jumping to conclusions. The terminal voltage of the batteries is not a reliable indication of the condition of the batteries.
.......................
I don't think just checking the voltage is good enough to make the claims being made.
I definitely also came into this conclusion.
2) (Molux):
QuoteYes, forget the Mike Fraud, in france we say: "It's ? charlot" !
I must confess that this assumption already flashed through my mind.
BTW: As I can catch It, you are French. RU Not? So I'm I (From Brittany).
Perhaps could we get in touch by phone?3) (Z_P_E):
QuoteCan anyone be 100% certain it is fake or real?...no.
Actually and inversely, IMO: nobody can.
-----------------------------------------------------
This post is not intended to 'grade' anybody. What I wanted to say -should it be 'off topic'- is that, IMO: Achieving 'OU' is sometimes (most of times?) a matter of hazard, chance, venture, fortune, indeed serendipity.
Actually, 'OU' seems to be a matter of resonance. ???
Any feedback?
Best
Salut(-e):
To reach resonance(receiving action) you have to get an "actor/actionator" !
Adeus
dL
Quote from: dingbat on May 19, 2007, 09:43:59 AM
I like Rick's newest motor because it has aspects of the window motor, and aspects of the ssg motor. Makes it versatile for testing. I may do something like it if I get time. Only drawback is it takes a lot of wire to go all the way around the bike wheel with the window winding.
db
Dingbat,
I don't usually post here too much, mostly just read.
Anyhow, good news! Ricks motor can be easily adapted to an existing window motor. You just need to add the extra coil but it must have the iron core to be effective (Lincoln R60 rods are best). I know of 1 successful replication already like this and another in progress. The most important part is the timing of the discharge pulse back into the primary battery.
Don't worry about the window winding you see in Rick's video.
You won't believe how easy it is once you've done it.
John (not Bedini)
@Darren:
sorry it's taken so long to get back to you on why i was suggesting de-coupling one of the windings.......
the waveform yuo all have been looking at on the wigglescopes looked kinda familiar, but it had been a long time since i'd worked with various waveforms so i needed to do a little research to confirm my suspisions.
those distortions in the basic sine wave appear to me to be kin to polyphasic harmonics. i just wanted to see if the sine wave "cleaned up" any if one of the windings was either advanced or retarded 15-20 deg.
if they are a type of harmonic distortion, it might explain a little of how the winmot could be used as an OU device.
what say you?
charlie
Guys,
just wanted to make one small correction to my last post - just so no one gets confused. I should have stated that if you are adding a bobbin type coil to be used to re-charge the primary it needs the iron core. If you are just adding another winding to a window motor (e.g. quadfilir) then obviously you don't need the iron core.
Sorry if I confused anyone.
John
.
It's on the wrong thread, it should be on the "12 times more energy output than input" with that pendulum and the hammer. Never mind.
Hello everybody!
For those who possibly might still be interested in: ;D
I have made some funny new experiments with my window motor.
[With the motor not loaded: I had removed this f' Crouzet relay and the hall probe. It was running pretty fast (sorry no tachometer yet) and was drawing less than 40 miliamps = 36-38 (analog meter).]
First experiment (the motor still not loaded):
I have added a reed relay and put a magnet on the 'inertia wheel'. The relay is 'on' during about 45? (= 1/8th) of the wheel rotation. I have 'choped' the bat with this relay . I mean: the bat is only feeding the circuit during 1/8th of the time.
The motor is still running (but slowler, of course). The analog amp meter needle is moving left and right and shows an average amp comsumption of about 15 mili amp (no capacitor added).
So: you can get a window motor moving with few mili amps and a 'choped feeding'.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Second experiment:
The motor is loaded with a 47 000 micro F cap *and* my SSG2 motor. I wait until the cap voltage is about 12 volts before hand launching the SSG. The two engines are running! The analog amp meter shows about 80 miliamps and the SSG neon bulb is glowing.
Circuit picture:
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Succesfull_WM_SSG_Modifs.jpg (http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Succesfull_WM_SSG_Modifs.jpg)
So: no overunity here :)
But : what about if I could charge-back the bat with the SGG?
Perhaps a step towards OU?
Explanations at:
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Planned_WM_SSG_Modifs.jpg
With this tricky thing:
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/JB-RC_Win_Mot_Switch.jpg
Best
PS:
@lancaIV
Meilleurs sentiments but I'm not sure to understand you fully...
Salut NerzDishual,
I,about my own,probably advocati duell, sometimes also not !
We need an impulse and a defined receptor,
the receptor,solid/gaseous/plasma phase,has to be in an " estimulative moment"
to get by the impulse the amplified=concentrated=uni-directional, force !
Ventil-/shielding effect !
Ate breve
dL
Salve LancaIV
Did you see the 1986 Jean-Jacques Annaud French movie "Le Nom de la rose" (Il nome della rosa - The name of the rose) from the Italian author Umberto Eco?
In this movie one of the monk is speaking a strange language which mix Latin and other Europeen tongues.
When I read your post I can't help thinking of this monk.
Please continue...
Best and kenavo ar c'henta?
"Im Namen der Rose",aber auch
Lancaster/York
Geschwister Scholl
Somebody said to me that I remembered him -from optical view-about this movie,
other ask me about Mr.Bean !
Deutschland,Marokko,Portugal,Italia : sanguis et terranis relationship
but non a new kind of "scipio africanus".
Ate logo
de Lan
Hello everybody.
Salve a tutti.
Bonjour ? tout le monde.
This thread is almost dead. OK.
Anyway, I have stumbled upon the following:
When - with my window motor - I chop,divide, hack, mince, slice (please choose the more appropriate word, if any :)) the input batt, the voltage of this 12.5V-4.5A/H lead bat is *not* decreasing as expected but very slightly increasing.
For example : I can read 13.01 volts at the begining and 13.03 volts an hour later. I have made a couple of experiments. The motor draws 20 ma. This 'phenomenon' ( ???) only occurs with a *lead* batt and not with any of these Ni-Cd things which I used to utilize.
OK, that ain't obvious overunity but it is the first time that I can observe this batt voltage behavior. Obviously the motor is doing some work while rotating and acting like a fan (and BTW charging a cap). Is it not?
To be more accurate: one experiment:
Under no load the input batt digital volt meter is showing 13.20 volts.
I hand-start the WM (with a non 'sliced' input batt).
At this time, it draws more than 100 ma (the analog amp meter needle is at stop).
After a while, the WM draws about 80 ma.
Then, I connect the reed (ILS) relay to 'slice' the input batt.
After being 'stabilized' the WM draws 20 ma.
The input batt digital volt meter is now showing 13.01 volts.
After an hour it is showing 13.03 volts.
The 470000micro_f cap voltage is showing more than 25 volts.
The L2 and L3 coils are not used to refill the batt but to charge the cap.
So why I am using this cap?
Just because this cap seems to 'stabilize' the WM and the different meters readings.
Circuit at :
http://freenrg.info/Window_Motor/Non_Bat_Consuming_WM.JPG
Perhaps, the end of the story could be :
A mere 2 coils (L1+L2) window motor with a reed-relay( or else)-chopped input *lead* bat could run without depleting the bat?
Best
ND.
At first glance the reed relay may look like it is contributing to this effect, but in reality, all that you are doing is putting two switches in series, and the combined ON time is now the resulting Q ON time.
In other words, one switch is redundant. If you want to achieve this same effect and have more control over the transistor ON-time and overall timing, get rid of the Trigger coil and use a Hall switch to trigger the main switching transistors.
Darren
Putting 2 switches in series always has an advantage of faster dI/dt current change
and it also helps in a Newman motor system, especially if coils
are used with it.
Yes, keep on trying and try to use copper-graphite switches
with sparks, that will help the battery stay alive and recharge it.
You have to tune the spark to get the best recharge effect into the battery while
running the motor.
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan,
Yes I agree that two switches in series may improve the switching process, but that's only when both are switched at the same time.
ND did not indicate if they were adjusted to switch at the same time, AND with the same ON-time, but I doubt they are. If this is the case, then all you get with two switches in series is one switch overriding the other. The same can be achieved with one switch that can be varied in ON time and dwell timing.
Darren
Hello I am new here
There are lots of posts here
Cany anyone tell me if managed to build SELF runing motor "window" with JUST capacitor?
what about motors that charges battery, what overunity percentage have been measured?
Grizli,
If you are interested in charging batteries motors, check Bedini?s work in :
www.icehouse.net/john34
Ney
Quote from: nfeijo on June 08, 2007, 09:02:53 AM
Grizli,
If you are interested in charging batteries motors, check Bedini?s work in :
www.icehouse.net/john34
Ney
I am also interested in self runing perpetual motion motors like this one: does it work?
According to the video: Yes.
Anyone else think this and the Newman "flower pot" motor are very similar in concept?
Yes. But need alot of wire on one coil, not even magnets rotating, series transistor switch the coil on and off. Have full wave rectifier across the coil. The pos. end back to battery. The neg. end to a spark gap to ground. (right materials)
It might work it if transmutation and polarization takes place at a high enough rate?
I came across this forum via http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=5rl1dI9YCi8
be cool if you can have 4x in parallel running - and charging a Heavy Duty 110AMP 12 Volt Leisure Battery
and when and where needed use a 12V DC - 230V AC Volt 1000 Watt Inverter to cycle off the charged battery
Shame I'm Crap at D.I.Y and working out all the OMS /u /resistance maths out
May of come up with a Little Board mod to stop CAPs from going bang But divert the power to a Battery / extra Super Cap
The Cut in relay Fires When the Spark gap goes
The one resister prevents the cap fully discharging throw the relay when fired will divert power that would be wasted into bigger storage (Battery / Super Cap)
When the Caps Discharged 40% into extra storage the Cut in / Cut out relay opens and allows the Cap to Recharge
Hopefully an Extra resistor will stop the Motor from stalling Being a veriable one should allow you to tweak it so the motor still has momentum as theirs a power drain as the cap sends the bulk over to storage
Programs used was Snagit - Screenshot tool
and a Demo Copy of Circuit Wizard from http://www.new-wave-concepts.com/
I guess this idea is dead...???
No explanation of how it's supposed to work or any way to extract any useful power besides running itself?
Or did I miss any vitals here?????
I think it had hidden batteries, if I recall correctly
A couple replications where able to make it run with hidden batteries but Mike claimed that it did not have hidden batteries. Of course Mike was not able to make a duplicate motor run so if the original creator can not make a successful replication I see no way of anyone else having success making one. ;) If Mike truly did have a working motor I suspect it was a combination of internal shorted windings and exact wiring placement. :-[ A little luck thrown in there somewhere. It is a shame that Mike can not slowly take apart his working motor and document what exactly he did to make it. Unfortunately this thread (and others) turned into a 'run a motor from a battery and try to recharge it' instead of the intended focus of getting a motor to run just off the magnets with NO battery which would have been remarkable. Add to that the deliberate effort to show how to fake it lead others to claim it was a fraud when in fact it looked like it might have been the real thing. :'( I still have a few ideas on how to make this work but I still need to finish other pressing projects before I get to yet another replication. Maybe if I ever get to retirement age... ;D
Is its documentation availible in a single file wih all circuits and diagrams.
Quote from: hartiberlin on February 14, 2007, 10:38:36 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3562588371166049574
This video does not conclusively show anything. For my mind not everything is fully explained. The battery could have been removed entirely to strengthen the validity but it wasn't. Also there is the little box sitting just underneath there with the 4 round plates on it. What is that? I understand there are upload limits regarding the video size, but this movie didn't go long enough.
I have just stumbled upon "free energy" and overunity machines in the last week and would dearly love them to be reality. But I am also a very skeptical person. Further, my technical expertise is pretty poor with regards to electronics and building such devices but I am working on it.
Further explanation of this video would be appreciated. Thanks.
Hi,
This thread has been dead for a while now, but now I have some ideas as to how Mike got his motor to work:
I think that he created a very basic Hortong circuit.
So if the solid state relay represents the silicon/germanium/arsenic semiconductor junction that is able to amplify the electron flow, this would explain its ability to self run. In essence you are depleting the mass of semiconductor metrial to create a vast supply of energy.
I did go a long way to creating this motor, even building an acrylic model of it.
I never got it to run as I was never happy with the magnet mouting on the rotor and never completed the circuit to drive it even though I have all the parts including the all important SSR.
So what I propose as an experiment is to:
1. provide a small amount of power into the storage capacitor via a bench supply.
2. pulse the Hall switch with a coil connected to a function generator.
3. replace the coil 3 with a bridge rectifier, cap and resistor or
wind a forth collector coil to pickup the output.
The idea here is to go down a solid state route (no motor) to find, by varying the input frequency, if switching power through the solid state relay can produce un-usual outputs.
It could certainly explain a lot of circuits that apear to draw power from no where, when all along it is possible that the silicon semiconductor material itself is being consumed and providing the energy source.
For example:
Stan Meyer's water fuel cell, SM's TPU, Mikes motor, Lutec motor etc etc.
And this(but does require tritium - heavy water poured onto a big porus diode junction):
http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-betavoltaic-10.1.html
http://www.betavoltaic.co.uk/page2.html
Its just an idea, but it would certainly explain a few things.
Regards
Rob
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FDSCN4981.jpg&hash=371734f81de8ba7e7b96b02c2cdb0e79a9cb341b)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2Fss-relay1.jpg&hash=447d23c071010595be70df6d3303da828f69eae0)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi100.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm25%2Fkingrs%2FDSCN4981.jpg&hash=371734f81de8ba7e7b96b02c2cdb0e79a9cb341b)
MeggerManI
Are you planning on finishing your motor?
I am new here and I havn't read the whole thread . I stopped shortly after Mike burnt out his motor then got it running again. I jumped to the end and saw that the topic has pretty much died.
I was wondering if you are planning on finishing your motor because I have a theory about magnet motors .
I have noticed that on the magnet motors that seem to work one of the things they often seem to have in common is that one set of magnets is quite a bit bigger than the other ...... 3 and a half times bigger seems to be a magic number.
I noticed that your rotor fills almost all the frame you made .
Common sense would seem to imply that getting the outer coil as close to the rotor as possable would make the motor stronger . If my theory is right, a good sized air gap is needed to make the magnetic field " big enough ."
As I said ......I am new here . I am still mostly reading and learning . I just thought I would throw my theory out there .
Just something to think about.
gary
i
@ toranarod
Ive been looking around for a soldering iron like your weller if you dont mind me asking where did you pick it up and how much was it . Thanks.
Joe
I built a very small scale Bedini-Cole window motor. I cannot get it to trigger. I am using 2 magnets, N, S.
I have only 120 turns of copper wire, it was all I had. It is 24 gauge power, 27 gauge trigger. I think this is too large, and not enough ohms resistance. I am not getting enough voltage to trigger most likely. What do you guys think?
I am ordering some 30 gauge wire if that is what is recommended. Can anyone recommend the different wire sizes for the power, trigger and then a 3rd charging winding. I have heard all sorts of various suggestions.
Almost everybody is rushing to judgment on Mike’s modified Bedini/Cole window motor.
If you look closely at Mike’s video and the fake imitation of Mike’s video (the one with the purposely hidden battery), you will notice three distinct differences between Mike’s motor and the fake one with a battery.
The first point of interest to notice is the flywheel. It’s obviously different than the one Mike used.
The second is the capacitor charge rate. In Mike’s video, it takes 49 seconds for the capacitor to reach 6VDC on the meter. In the fake video, it only takes 7 seconds for the capacitor to reach 6VDC. Mike’s charge rate is a realistic charge rate being that the motor windings are doing the charging. The battery assisted motor can’t help but climb too rapidly in too short a time which is characteristic of a battery’s involvement.
The third point of great importance is the solid state relay being used in Mike’s video verses the one being used in the fake one. They are CLEARLY different! Yes, the input voltage may be the same but I highly doubt the types are identical. Why is the “type†important? Because I work with these type of relays all the time at work and there are MANY different types of these relays with the exact same input voltage as well as amperage ratings. For example, there is the MOSFET type, the SCR type, the TRIAC type, the PHOTOTRIAC type, the ALTERNISTOR TRIAC type, and the PHOTO COUPLER type. Each may have a different effect on the circuitry (or side effect).
Even if they were of the same type, many of these solid state relays have built-in varistors which will ABSORB any surges or spikes (especially back EMF and sudden switching spikes) thus hindering any kind of charging operation such as the one in this motor. It’s no wonder the replication didn’t work without the hidden battery. The absence of a varistor in Mike’s solid state relay would account for why Mike eventually blew out his hall effect IC.
I’m not knocking John Bedini either. He is definitely a master motor builder and a personal mentor of mine but did he actually take apart Mike’s solid state relay and see if a battery was hidden inside? I don’t think so.
Here’s a guy (Mike) trying to help us achieve unity (and perhaps over-unity) and he’s been likened to a modern day snake oil salesman.
He was forthcoming with his schematics, exact capacitor used, exact solid state relay used and other helpful information on his modification. This is not the behavior of a con man. Fakes usually hold back critical details that prohibit you from replicating their work thus making it almost impossible to prove they are really fakes.
He could have gone to the naïve public and scammed them into giving him money for R&D or as investors in his device. HE DIDN’T!
Instead he shares his designs with websites such as ours only to be ridiculed, second guessed and basically called a liar! I would have disappeared too if I were him. The ingratitude of you naysayers.
Is the motive envy or maybe professional egos that were threatened? I’m sure Mike could have received plenty of this BS from the scientific community in the first place and skipped the need for a second serving on here.
Thank you for helping KILL the over-unity movement by persuading future inventors NOT to post their designs and insights here. After seeing what happened to Mike, I doubt anyone else will want an equal dose.
Hi, great feedback on Mike's motor! You are a great person. It takes a stronger person to stand up and help others rather than condemn them for thinking differently! Skepticism can not possibly help in the field of technology. Skepticism has ALWAYS prevented progress - ALWAYS.
Do you have a link you could post right here for the "REAL" video vs the "FAKE"?
Thank you for the kind words. I am currently building my own version of the Bedini/Cole window motor. I am having my flywheel and rotor both professionally machined to precise standards at which time I will build my own motor with my own circuitry.
I'm sorry I don't have a link for the fake version (not Mike's but the other one with the battery cheater) on hand but I do have a link to some professionals who have successfully replicated the window motor to prove to you that Mike's results are genuine and NOT fake!
They even show oscope shots so you see the waveforms!
I think all of you that ridiculed Mike owe him a BIG apology along with some very tasty crow to swallow!
Proof of Mike’s motor results confirmed at this site:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8484430750184911575
That was John Bedini! Cool video! That was very professional.
I have been wanting to build a window motor also. Perhaps I can get a couple pointers from you? I am a little confused about why there is a need for a trigger winding on the armature coil, as well as a hall effect transistor on the outside. Why does it need two trigger mechanisms? That is the main part I can't figure out. Bedini used 4 transistors on the one in his video, and he also uses an external hall effect. Why does he need 4 transistors, not 3 like the normal circuit calls for?
Here is the video for Bedini's window motor. It also runs on a capacitor. He says very clearly it has no LENZ'S law, so it can obviously generate more power than it can consume.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3562588371166049574&hl=en
I wish he would just give it a little spin and then leave it to run.
He keeps stopping and starting it.
Gives me the impression that if left alone for long it would slowly come to a stop.
If he claims it runs itself then he should leave it run to prove the point.
AbbaRue, you bring up a good point. John Bedini is always dodging the "closed loop" discussions. He says in all his videos that he likes to have batteries being charged, and he likes having secondary batteries, etc etc. He obviously isn't trying to prove that you can make a closed loop device. As you know John Bedini has been watched and warned by certain secret authorities. The exact warning they gave him may have included keeping quiet about perpetual motion machines. But this is speculation on my part. ???
Anyway Bedini's window motor does not look to provide any useful output energy, since it appears to be running exactly at 100% efficiency, no energy in, and no energy out. But then we have to remember that there is a tiny amount of work being done to keep the rotor spinning, even if it doesn't accelerate. WORK is being done for free. The fact that the energy produced is stronger than the drag of the bearings is enough to prove that he has created an over unity motor. The timing, and the size of the charging coils could alter the efficiency so it accelerates.
Also, If there is no Lenz law, that means the rotor could continue charging multiple auxiliary coils, these coils would use the free energy of the spinning rotor. This charging could cause further acceleration all with zero drag, hence free acceleration without any battery or other input energy.
I wish there were more and better videos on the window motor. Maybe Bedini will make another video on the window motor sometime?? Maybe someone who knows him can ask him to repeat the test? Nevertheless, if we trust what he says, and build a replica, we should be able to prove that it works.
Hi, this is my prototipe of window motor but now only works with one simple coil and triger, the dimensions of the magnets is 48x22x10 cm and works with 1.7 mA see the video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUqtp14wNrc
And sorry for my english.
Quote from: aTg on February 09, 2009, 02:06:26 PM
Hi, this is my prototipe of window motor but now only works with one simple coil and triger, the dimensions of the magnets is 48x22x10 cm and works with 1.7 mA see the video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUqtp14wNrc
And sorry for my english.
Interesting but I have a few remarks.
You don't seem to use a True RMS multimeter.
The report on 1.7mA could easily be wrong if you don't use the right equipment.
You ought to connect a small generator to the shaft and measure how much
you can load it down be for the motor stops running.
The most efficient range is when loaded down to half it's free running RPM.
If the RPM in your video is e'g 300, then load the generator until the motor
hit's 150 rpm and this is when you measure the output load in watts.
If the output is higher than the input at 1.2V x 0.0017A, 2mW, then you should
be able to loop the generator back to the motor and make a self runner.
But first of all, go buy a true rms multimeter.
Quote from: aTg on February 09, 2009, 02:06:26 PM
Hi, this is my prototipe of window motor but now only works with one simple coil and triger, the dimensions of the magnets is 48x22x10 cm and works with 1.7 mA see the video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUqtp14wNrc
And sorry for my english.
@aTG
Is your motor self running? I see a battery in your demonstration.
Regards
Not my engine is not OU just trying to show that low consumption is to produce movement, a new video here. Just 0.33 watts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAJkBKiUjxk
HI all,
i am new on this topics. I read on this device and i want to know whether it realy work?
Anybody have already a working replication? I will try to replicate it, too. I would to have a detailed video about this device. By this i could to make sure that this device no a hoax is. (No hidden battery, no hidden magnetic feld generator coil, etc .....) Than the replication is possible but ticklish. The point is whether a working machine is possible. Replication is a other question.
@Stefan,
has my privat message come into on your inbox?
HI all,
i am new on this topics. I read on this device and i want to know whether it realy work?
Anybody have already a working replication? I will try to replicate it, too. I would to have a detailed video about this device. By this i could to make sure that this device no a hoax is. (No hidden battery, no hidden magnetic feld generator coil, etc .....) Than the replication is possible but ticklish. The point is whether a working machine is possible. Replication is a other question.
@Stefan,
has my privat message come into on your inbox?
Hi there,
New to this. Is this a selfrunning overunity motor system OR motor run on batteries ?
Would you please also send me the details as well.
The discussion is confused! Can any one have summary of the discussion.
Is it worth to continue the investigation?
*free energy web master can you send message come into on the inbox?
I haven't read this entire post. But basically the window motor is unique in that it does not exhibit Lenz's law, at least according to Bedini's own words in his video. If you go and read the definition of Lenz's law, or you already know what Lenz's law is, then you will know that the only reason magnetic generators and motors have drag is because of Lenz's law. If you get rid of Lenz's law, you have 90% increase in efficiency, producing a motor capable of over unity.
The window motor is far cooler than the Bedini SSG motor, because the window motor can perform work. This motor has more practical value, but it's not practical to construct, as it is more difficult.
What I'm trying to figure out is what the difference is between the Bedini/Cole window motor circuit, and the regular SSG circuit?
This one looks amazingly powerful
http://www.youtube.com/user/shannrenn#p/a/u/2/hnHDRjO7BGE
Quote from: pcjunkie on November 24, 2009, 09:45:59 AM
This one looks amazingly powerful
http://www.youtube.com/user/shannrenn#p/a/u/2/hnHDRjO7BGE
No, it's a very, very weak machine. You can tell by its slow acceleration.
It it had any real useful torque then it would accelerate to maximum speed
in milliseconds. This motor seems incredibly weak and the slightest shaft load
will brake the motor to standstill.
Its running on one coil. He has space for 16.
Quote from: pcjunkie on November 27, 2009, 08:52:13 AM
Its running on one coil. He has space for 16.
No, he's actually using two coils.
The video was posted almost 3 month ago....where is the update on more coils.
Anyway, 16 coils mean 8 times more power consumed.
And he might get 8 x weak torque = still weak.
Please look more closely of this design. The magnetic coupling is terribly
due to the large airgap of this typical design. And bad magnetic coupling
is the same as wasting energy without getting anything in return.
But I admit it is quite an impressive build....
Mike,
Great job, when will you be allowing the public to come watch it operate?
Thanks,
Gammarayburst
One day to read this post, the final conclusion is: the window motor can not self-run? ?
http://jnaudin.free.fr/2SGen/indexen.htm
Future headline will read "Energy Forum's efforts achieve highest efficiency motor ever made" and done by non capitalists!
I not understand I cant download from here , why ?
info...
http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/muller_dynamo/