Just info on the rotoverter I've started. The motor is a remanufactured 7.5 hp unknown model with squeeky bearings. It is a 230/460vac, 3450rpm motor wired for 460 but run with 121VAC line voltage. I am using mainly new capacitors but a couple are old. These are the MFDs: 3, 4, 5, 7.5, 10, 30, 50, 149. The motor takes about 5-10 seconds to spin-up using the 149 as a start capacitor and then switching it out. I built a test bank with STDP switches to completely isolate the caps during testing. The motor was allowed to stablize for about 30 seconds to a minute before accumalating the data. Some of the measurements would bounce alot so I took the highest and lowest that read on the amp meter (2% accuracy on 40 amp scale) at least three times in 30 seconds. Here are the results:
mfd amps
0 1.5
3 1.4
4 1.8
5 1.7
7.5 1.6 to 1.5
8 1.6
10.5 1.5
11.5 1.55
12 1.53
12.5 1.27 to 1.45
13 1.29 to 1.38
14 1.28 to 133
15 1.24 to 138
17 1.24 to 1.34
17.5 1.16 to 13
19 1.07 to 1.22
20.5 .98 to 1.19
21.5 .86 to 1.07
22.5 .86 to 1.02
24.5 .82 to 1.02
25.5 .88 to 1.02
26.5 .8 to .84
29.5 .77 to .96
30 .76 to .86
33 .77 to .87
34 .78 to .82
35 .8 to .86
37 .88 to .94
38 .93 to .94
39 .97 to 1.04
40 1.04 to 1.06
Best run is .82amps x 121VAC = 99.22 VA
I have a 12KW generator head but it is to large for such a small motor to drive for a load. I bought a 1200 watt generator just for the head but the crankshaft is also the generator head shaft so that's a no go also. I do have an old 3.5 compressor motor that uses caps for starting....does anyone know if anything special would have to be done in order to use this as a generator head? Any ideas that do not cost a lot of money and are easily adaptable will be greatly appreciated :)
Rich
Have you tried Frequency driving you RV yet?, it can reach up to a higher Hose power this way and maybe drive some thing near that, this way (Freq driving) the ZPE pulse width modulation states come in handy
Search on this compilation for frequency drives
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/files/RV%20energy%20saving%20applications%20and%20R%20and%20D.pdf
Regards
AShtweth
No, I've been using commercial 120VAC @ 60hz. From what I've read you should be able to make it work on straight line voltage. I did buy a rebuilt 84% effeciency Baldor 5hp, 1800 rpm motor for the generator that is coupled 1:1. I have not built my load circuit (100 watt bulbs) yet but this is pretty fun.
Rich
@oouthere
Good work. Once you have your cap bank on switches, life is so easy.
Here is a picture of my set-up I have been testing off and on the RV from DC-DC motors in loop, to AC-DC in loop, AC-Alternator now my next one is the AC-AC.
What is the rpm rating of your 12kva motor at that voltage. If it is low enough, you could try 2:1 or even 3:1 gear ratio.
My next tests will be with a very very larger coupler to give the prime mover some added inertia to fight against the drag.
I have tested with a 5ph leeson running a 108 amp alternator which I have simply modified the regulator to be able to apply the excitation voltage myself. The alternator won. There is too much drag and the prime mover starts heating up, even if you try other cap configurations.
The main problem with RV is it will be good under light loads but when you start asking more, it lacks the torque. From 5ph the RV renders the motor around 1.8hp or even less I am sure.
My capacitor bank holds 15 caps with 17 switches. Switch 1 is the main, swithches 2-9 are bank 1, switch 11 is bank 2 main, switches 12-17 are bank 2. This allows you to quickly find the start values, and when the motor runs full you can switch this side off and use the others as run cap.
Guys don't forget the extraction circuit you can use on your prime mover (tested in France and working to charge a secondary battery for free) or (untested) on your alternator.
there are step by step instructions on the RV peswiki page or in the compilations on this page, please sign the petition for now energy wastage in 1.8horpower motors and support the RV, its as easy as name email country thanks, helps us help you.
Peswiki RV
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Rotoverter
Support the RV here and Sign the no energy wastage
Petitions- http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/RotoVerter.htm
neon
Hi Oouthere, and congrats on the work you have done so far. You may be able to find a local model engineer to build a new shaft and bearings for your generator , maybe for nothing if you can "sell" him the idea of this technology. AC motors are not easy to use as generators, but not impossible either. I would say you need a generator capable of at least 300 watts. Look around your local scrapyard. A big DC motor , preferrably a permanent magnet one would be ideal. You may or may not have to use gears, or pulleys as a speed changer. You could load the generator with filament lamps or heavy resistance wire to calculate its output. The motors from scrap electric scooters are OK but rarely exceed 200 watts, and need high RPM.
A cheap alternative would be to build a "pony brake" and measure the output as Horse Power, and cnvert it into watts. Cheap to make,accurate results. Let us Know how it goes. My business allows me little time to play, but at least I can encourage do-ers like yourself. Neptune
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the encouragement as it really helps when beating your head on the wall! Wattsup, great job on the switches! I didn't think far enough ahead to buy two sets of caps so.....
I've bought out all of the switches at our local Home Depot and electronics store so the second test bank has not been started yet.
The 12KW generator head can either be wired for 120 or 240 and is rated at 1800 rpm. This is an industrial size head at perhaps 350lbs so it would be asking a lot for 1.8hp to budge it around.
As soon as I get a good understanding of the basic components and interactions I'll look into building the extraction circuit....this is a ladder for me so one step at a time.
Rich
Note- a sugesiton from Rain
To avoid bigger bangs and death of course such box has to be properly
isolated, also the switches need to be of high quality and switch
knobs als very well isolated. The switches should be able to withstand
quite high peak currents and voltages(possible inductive kicks of
several hundred volts or even thousands volts). The caps inside the
box should have proper 1-10Mohm bleed resistors to bleed off the
residual voltage in disconnected state. This avoids the situation when
at switch turn-on the cap voltage from previous disconnect is say
-300V and you turn it on at the exact moment when the grids voltage is
+300V =>> this results then a very big inrush current to the cap and
possibly the melting of poor switch contacts or weak wires
@ashtweth_nihilisti
Thanks for the heads up on the security issue.
@oouthere
If your 12kva generator runs at 1800 rpm and your prime mover runs at 3450 rpm, you can try to find a 2:1 ratio oil filled bevel gear (not worm gear) or belt drives and run it that way. The PM will be forcing much less and at that size generator you are bound to hit pay dirt at one point, as long as you do not ask to much from the generator.
I have to admit it has been tempting to place the 7.5hp on the 12kw head. I'll continue my current course as I managed to liberate another 9 switches from Home Depot (crying in the boxes they were!). I'm so far away from a city while at work it isn't even funny....it's tough finding parts!
I installed the new switches and have about 1/2 of the wiring completed. Perhaps I can find the caps tomorrow, finish the wiring and get an initial load test this weekend.
It seems mandatory to get a 1kw head! They are only using a 2hp engine so it would seem the 7.5hp would be able to pull the full load but probably closer to 110VAC instead of 120VAC plus we'd be losing a few hertz as well. It's all good though!
Rich
Well, I got the initial load results (6 100 watt bulbs) and I'm no where near o/u or even "u".
Rich
Rich, it depends on what application you are trying to utilize.
ATM you have the most efficient .8-1.8 horse power motor in the world, which can idle on the smell of a rag and give you more power on demand (energy savings).
If you wish to extract electrical resonance, then you need an extraction circuit, the latest one reported as working is by an open sourced engineer in France.
This is the NEON switching circuit, and only requires the prime mover to work. circuit cost 19.95$
Quote from: ashtweth_nihilisti on June 24, 2007, 09:40:14 PM
Rich, it depends on what application you are trying to utilize.
ATM you have the most efficient .8-1.8 horse power motor in the world, which can idle on the smell of a rag and give you more power on demand (energy savings).
If you wish to extract electrical resonance, then you need an extraction circuit, the latest one reported as working is by an open sourced engineer in France.
This is the NEON switching circuit, and only requires the prime mover to work. circuit cost 19.95$
Hello ashtweth_nihilisti
Can you help out with further information on that circuit.
Perhaps it is compatible with other Projekts on the Board
helmut
@ashtweth_nihili
Do you mean as shown on this web page?
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter
Under the heading "Power Extraction from Resonance".
If yes, the proponent of this indicates as follows;
"easy to apply to RV alternator as well -> this could be an easier way to get OU at single phase resonance"
Notice he says "single phase resonance" for a single phase alternator, but most alternators, mine included are three phase ac output passing triple rectified bridge to 12vdc. He also used the word "could" which implies also "could not".
@oouthere
Can you re-cap what you did and if you can put up a photo of your set-up?
Under PM fully loaded condition, what is the amperage?
What happens when you remove one bulb at a time from the grid?
Do you know that is many instances, you have to put the start cap back on when the Prime Mover is under load.
Start PM - Start cap on and run cap on
Idle PM - Start cap off and run cap on
Loaded PM - Start cap on and run cap on or off
And at Loaded PM, you may have to play around with the caps to maintain PM rotation otherwise it will begin to slow down and eventually stop. Also, watch out if the PM starts to heat up.
Here are two photos of some DC-DC tests (non-RV) I had done a little while back. Again here I was losing about .1 volts every 10 minutes. Won't get into this much deeper because it is pointless.
wattsup
Hello stefan and all,
okay maybe best to post this set up in RVreplicaiton yahoo groups then pst the answers back here, they can give more experienced technical advice, that set up can be improved please post you results there ;D
here is the Neon attached
if you find the Rv useful please help by signing a petition for non energy wastage, its as easy as and email and country
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/RotoVerter.htm
Quote from: wattsup on June 25, 2007, 11:21:34 AM
@ashtweth_nihili
Do you mean as shown on this web page?
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Rotoverter
Under the heading "Power Extraction from Resonance".
ash linked you to the neon detector switch circuit.
here is anothr image of it:
http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/neonpeak/NeonPeakDetectorSwitchingV1.3.JPG (http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/neonpeak/NeonPeakDetectorSwitchingV1.3.JPG)
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scene.org%2F%7Eesa%2Fmerlib%2Fneonpeak%2FNeonPeakDetectorSwitchingV1.3.JPG&hash=2f8def28194999d2469af19c24f047d8f721d8e5)
this coupled with the ashtweth pdf neon_new.pdf should all help. happy journeys!
@oouthere
Can you re-cap what you did and if you can put up a photo of your set-up?
It's a bit primitive compared to yours, but I'll get a picture up this weekend.
Under PM fully loaded condition, what is the amperage?
It's hard to find the best power condition as the rpms drop when the luminance increases. I'm putting out roughly 380VAC max but it bounces so much it's hard to get a good reading. The PM is maxing out with some sort of steady luminance at about 6 amps input.
What happens when you remove one bulb at a time from the grid?
I cannot remove bulbs since they are in series of 3-100 watts each. I can remove a parallel set at this point only
Do you know that is many instances, you have to put the start cap back on when the Prime Mover is under load.
I would place the start cap back in when the load started to overcome the PM but only long enough to not completely stall the PM.
[/quote]
@oouthere
You gave the values of your caps for the PM, but what are the voltage values of these caps.
One thing I totally overlooked on my set-up I just noticed one of the RV schematics in the document called "consolidated_knowledge.pdf" (page 14) available on the yahoo groups RVreplication web site shows a run cap of 22.5uf 1200v and a run cap of 90uf 600v whereas I have been using a variety of uf caps at 370 volts.
Also on this same schematic they are using four 370 volts caps on the generator side.
I will get these new cap values and try out my system again.
Do you have an AC clamp on ampmeter? Mine is an AC/DC type so it works great and easy to measure also off my DC alternator.
I am including the pdf file here.
Only a million things to do!
My voltages are 370V for all my caps. Sorry, still no pictures but I think I had it wired incorrectly and not tuning properly.
Just tuning the alternator with a cap bank and no load my best voltage so far is 414VAC @ 5.1 amps (2111 watts).
The PM is 121VAC @ 5.27 amps (637 watts). Not as good as the "text book case" but looking ok for my tests. No load test yet.
A stupid question...are you suppose to put the load in series with the cap bank or in parallel?
Thanks,
Rich
Editing in missed information:
Yes, I'm using a Sperry 40amp clamp meter for measurements.
In the "Laymen's RV STEP BY STEP" it shows their set-up for maximum voltage tuning at 11VDC (invertor) @ 30.6 amps (336.6 watts) for the PM and 165VAC @ 9.7amps (1600.5 watts).
@oouthere
Quote from: oouthere on July 18, 2007, 10:57:06 PM
Only a million things to do!
My voltages are 370V for all my caps. Sorry, still no pictures but I think I had it wired incorrectly and not tuning properly.
Just tuning the alternator with a cap bank and no load my best voltage so far is 414VAC @ 5.1 amps (2111 watts).
The PM is 121VAC @ 5.27 amps (637 watts). Not as good as the "text book case" but looking ok for my tests. No load test yet.
A stupid question...are you suppose to put the load in series with the cap bank or in parallel?
Thanks,
Rich
The capacitor bank should be one side of caps in series. One side of switches in series, One side of switches goes to each cap. You connect L3 to the cap series and L1 to the switch series.
How did you check the amperage of your alternator without a load?
The load should be in parallel to the caps.
I just purchased another inverter off of Ebay so I can start doing some more testing on a stand-alone loop system.
Keep on.
wattsup
In order to tune the alternator you shoot for maximum sustained voltage using the cap bank between two of the three legs. That's were the unloaded volts/amps comes into play.
After asking the load (series or parallel) question, I found notes further down the line that indicates all the different ways need to be tried in order tune for maximum efficiency.
Rich
Well, this is disappointing looking at this site:
http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/RotoVerter.htm
It appears my above figures of measuring the alternator are exactly in the same set-up (except I do not have the drain resistors on the caps) as listed above. If you look at it that way, yes it is overunity but it is not usable as this power is required to energize the rotor.
Rich
@oouthere
I really don't understand what you are saying about the panacea web site.
The bleed resistors are only there to make sure the caps lose all power when the system is turned off so you don't get an accidental shock. I personally don't use them and this does not interfere with the function of the caps or the RV method.
When you are talking about tuning your alternator on two of three legs, do you actually mean your PM and not the alternator. Are you using an alernator or a generator ont he other side of the PM?
To see what your alternator or generator is really producing, you have to put a load on it. While loaded you have to re-tune the PM. The you can take voltage and amperage readings.
I am also confused with RV directives. In one explanation they say to use 450V caps, in another they say use three times the applied voltage. I'm using 370V caps with 120V applied.
On my RV system I'm still testing with a 5HP PM and a 108 amp car alternator and results are not good. The alternator has so much drag before it produces some juice, I can amost swear I would require a car engine to turn it. LOL
I will look for a decent generator for my next trials.
Quote from: wattsup on July 19, 2007, 09:39:10 PM
@oouthere
I really don't understand what you are saying about the panacea web site.
The bleed resistors are only there to make sure the caps lose all power when the system is turned off so you don't get an accidental shock. I personally don't use them and this does not interfere with the function of the caps or the RV method.
I totally agree, I was just pointing out that is the only difference in their pictured set-up and mine.
When you are talking about tuning your alternator on two of three legs, do you actually mean your PM and not the alternator. Are you using an alernator or a generator ont he other side of the PM?
To see what your alternator or generator is really producing, you have to put a load on it. While loaded you have to re-tune the PM. The you can take voltage and amperage readings.
I am using a 5hp Baldor three phase motor for the alternator. In order for it to produce any voltage you must put a cap bank between two of the three legs or else it will not produce anything. You can hear the PM drag down when the caps charge. I'm simply measuring the voltage and amperage at the cap bank with no additional loading.
IMO, the readings are misleading....to the average browser you think they have a load and it's producing o/u, but once you start playing with these devices you understand that what is shown is not usable o/u but just what it takes to energize the rotor. Their readings are across a capacitor only, no load.
I am also confused with RV directives. In one explanation they say to use 450V caps, in another they say use three times the applied voltage. I'm using 370V caps with 120V applied.
On my RV system I'm still testing with a 5HP PM and a 108 amp car alternator and results are not good. The alternator has so much drag before it produces some juice, I can amost swear I would require a car engine to turn it. LOL
I will look for a decent generator for my next trials.
At this point I'm looking at the Deliverance circuit as they believe it can extract the energy without further loading the RV set-up. At this point I do not know but intend to continue playing with it as time and money are available.
We'll get it some day!
Rich
@oouthere
some things are not clear to me or you are making it unclear.
To resolve and clarify:
1. only thing that has to be tuned for resonance is Prime Mover with its mechanical load.
If Mechanical Load is changed, you allso must change capacitance to achieve resonance
what is mechanical load ?
Mechanical load is your alternator with electrical load attached. More electrical load , more mechanical load
for Prime mover.
2. You can allso achieve resonant points of prime mover if you build variabile frequency inverter 12VDC to 120V60hz-400Hz/220V50Hz-400Hz.
first set "mechanical load" at desired level (4-5 times the input should be - Input is 1/3 or 1/4 of max power of prime mover) then find resonace with inverter set at 50Hz/60Hz and vary capacity - when found leave it. after that try with changing freq for further tune.
3. Only after you find resonance with mechanical load and "desired" max Opower/Ipower ratio then you proceed
making circuits for aditional extraction.
Prime mover in rotoverter is Asyinchron Induction three phase motor.
Igor
Quote from: wizkycho on July 20, 2007, 04:11:12 AM
@oouthere
some things are not clear to me or you are making it unclear.
To resolve and clarify:
1. only thing that has to be tuned for resonance is Prime Mover with its mechanical load.
If Mechanical Load is changed, you allso must change capacitance to achieve resonance
Actually, you start first by tuning the PM and then you tune the alternator. The alternator is tuned by using a similar cap bank as the PM. The alternator cap bank is placed between any two legs of the three phase alternator. You tune the alternator to the highest sustainable voltage without bogging the PM. The three phase alternator will not produce any voltage or current without the use of the cap bank.
Sorry, I'm probably not that good at explaining myself.
Rich
what is mechanical load ?
Mechanical load is your alternator with electrical load attached. More electrical load , more mechanical load
for Prime mover.
2. You can allso achieve resonant points of prime mover if you build variabile frequency inverter 12VDC to 120V60hz-400Hz/220V50Hz-400Hz.
first set "mechanical load" at desired level (4-5 times the input should be - Input is 1/3 or 1/4 of max power of prime mover) then find resonace with inverter set at 50Hz/60Hz and vary capacity - when found leave it. after that try with changing freq for further tune.
3. Only after you find resonance with mechanical load and "desired" max Opower/Ipower ratio then you proceed
making circuits for aditional extraction.
Prime mover in rotoverter is Asyinchron Induction three phase motor.
Igor
Guys, I know we are all learning and probably the slowest of all is me. I ran across another document on the RV and apparently where I took my readings from the alternator is where you tune your load in series with the cap bank. The load must a resistive load (i.e. light bulb, heating element, etc). From my current understanding you take your best amperage/voltage tuning from the alternator and adjust your load to fit. I had 414VAC @ 5.1 amps so I'll probably need 5 parallel strings of 4-100 watt bulbs ran in series. Plus perhaps another parallel string of 4-25 watt bulbs to closely match the 2111 watt output.
I'm starting to understand this a little better now, but a lot of the RV documentation is redundant and cumbersome to rumage for the "glimmer of gold." So my next step will be to make-up the light strings and see how that goes.
Rich
@oouthere
I call the RV doc a Vulcan Mind-Meld. I think some of the doc was made with more of an intent to impress people by totally mixing them up. Some of the jargon is so repetative. But hey, that's the way it is.
Tuning is esentially done on both sides of RV. Like pulling on an elastic band. If the alternator is tuned to higher amps, this may slow the PM that then has to be tuned, that then makes the alternator turn faster, that then has to be re-tuned, etc, until you get to a point were both sides are at their best performance under the circumstances.
If you have a heating element, hair dryer, or other apperatus of know wattage, just use it on the load. Don't try to get the alternator fully loaded yet. Try to just get out a little more than your are putting it and write down those parameters. You can then quickly repeat the test and take it from there. Hope you have a hand held ampmeter.
I think your set-up has good potential for OU.
Hi Wattsup,
I read that the RV will act differently on different days...I just verified that. My previous best alternator output was 2,111 watts but today with the exact same switch settings is 420VAC @ 8.7amps which is 3,654 watts. Well, I just bought 2,000 watts worth of bulbs to match the previous load but with the increase of output it is not enough to sustain the cap charge. I was hoping to show an o/u condition today but.....
At any rate, this is the most interesting project I have taken (i.e. Joe Cell, Wankle magnet motor, Gary Effect motor....)
Rich
Editing in more info....the PM also used a little more power, 121VAC @ 5.4amps = 653.4 watts.
So the "inside the alternator" cop is 5.9 and it's only a matter of tuning it to the load at this point.