Here's a shot of my project, and a little about me too. I realize I've sort of popped out of nowhere, so this will give you a chance to see what I'm up to, and who I am.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CAC2209154B8B1D8
I know Ironhead and others have done something similar already. Hope it worked out... I hate beating down doors just to learn that someone else had already unlocked them. But so goes the pursuit of unlimited energy.
Feedback of any kind is appreciated.
Regards, Mark.
Welcome Aphasiac, been watching John aaron's vid's huh? Nice looking cell, we all look at everything a little bit differently so another set of eyes is always welcomed. We try to share experiences as well, (no need to go down the same failure path that maybe one of the other experimenters has right?) I look forward to your tests & results... just go about it safely...
welcome aboard,
rapttor
Quote from: rapttor on July 05, 2007, 04:35:52 PM
Welcome Aphasiac, been watching John aaron's vid's huh? ...Nice looking cell. . . . I look forward to your tests & results... just go about it safely.
Thanks, Raptor. And yes, I fell onto John Aaron's (aka Rich Berman's) vids first, and became hooked. This cell is definitely similar to his, though bigger plates and fewer of them, and a longer cell, hopefully to allow more water movement.
Thanks for the caveat. I will play carefully.. esp as I venture into RF territory. I've been reading the adventures of Otto, Jason, Roberto, et al., and so I'm duly warned that I know less than I think I do, which isn't much. lol.
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: Aphasiac on July 05, 2007, 04:05:22 PM
Here's a shot of my project, and a little about me too. I realize I've sort of popped out of nowhere, so this will give you a chance to see what I'm up to, and who I am.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CAC2209154B8B1D8
I know Ironhead and others have done something similar already. Hope it worked out... I hate beating down doors just to learn that someone else had already unlocked them. But so goes the pursuit of unlimited energy.
Feedback of any kind is appreciated.
Regards, Mark.
The only way this technology is going to help this world is to do it our selfs for our own little world we create and support .What I mean by this, is one backyard at a time.
So bang those doors down, this is for you . We must get back to the days where we created the things we need to live by what ever means possible and the so called impossible .We get so caught up in the Gov / Corps providing for us ,we tend to forget how to provide for our selfs . So good on ya for taking on this task ,Aphasiac.
I can tell you that what you are doing is not impossible, but you have alot of work and study ahead of you. I will go over a few things you might want to think about on this project in the near future . I have to get a few things together such as web pages and such . There are a bunch of numbers that say you can not do this ,forget them.
You will know when you turn the valve on if you need this or that to be changed in some way to archive your task.HHO extraction from water is not the only thing to think about in this case.The engine itself was designed to compress and combust a liquid fuel. There alone you must think in new ways.
One thing ,very important with HHO . Never let pressurized gas into the engine with out it turning and firing first or you might blow the motor apart.
Second , This is not gasoline it does not require compression to explode .
At this point compression is nothing but loss energy.
Third , Flashaback arrestors and small bubbler very close to the cell is a must. Put you cell as close to the intake as possible because you have liberated electrons in the gas,the gas will recombined back to water very quickly.
You could loss up to 50% of your gas turning back to water in a given distance.
All of these little details will hinder you outcome if not well thought out.
More to come
Just build it , It will teach you
IronHead
Great work Aphasiac,
Ironhead, your completely right, we can?t convince other people to get of there buts if we don?t.
Please help us with the high voltage setup back at the http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2 forum, you experiences are so helpful, maybe a little background on the electronics used.
Thanks,
Electronics are a process of addition and elimination for each Cell build and Cell type. I can get into the basics of what it takes to design a drive for a specific Cell stack. Some Cells can not be driven at all from what I have seen. This has to do with the design of the Cell itself. More on this later.
I will try and talk abit over at your forum. I have so many things going on with this now. Last time I took a count it was right around 1800 people in a bunch of Forums,Messages, Emails, YouTube and so on . Even my phone rings of the hook ,as they say.
I will do my best to pay your forum a visit.
IronHead
Thank you, IronHead! :-)
Dude no rush, the forum though is brilliant for help, people on there have had good success, there all the details get discussed, I?m not advertising it or anything it?s just that the forum is the best I?ve found so far for replicating the water fuel cell. Your help is great and will be appreciated there,
Dude no rush, the forum though is brilliant for help, people on there have had good success, there all the details get discussed, I?m not advertising it or anything it?s just that the forum is the best I?ve found so far for replicating the water fuel cell. Your help is great and will be appreciated there,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VypwKfECnKI
Here's a video update on my 12HP Snapper conversion project for those interested.
There's a shot of the cell running at 12V, 14Amps., as well as a few snaps pasted below.
(This is my 4th shot at uploading these, so Aphasiac is crossing his fingers and hoping this post doesn't show up in 3 other threads. lol)
I think this cell is producing very nicely, though there is a delay of a couple of seconds between when I apply power, and when it starts pumping out the HHO. I'm wondering if this is maybe because of the size of my plates, or possibly because I didn't charge the cell up in advance?
Also, you'll notice a thin ring of scum if you look closely enough. The water is distilled, but I wiped the inside of the tube out with a greasy rag before filling... next time I'll try paper towels. :P
Cheers, Mark.
Nice job . you got your self a sweet little 12 volter there.
Have you ever tried to seal the plates off from one another so
the voltage is forced to go through the plates ?
The Cell would produce abit better in the long run.
Anyway, great job keep up the good work.
A true builder ya be
IronHead
No, I haven't... but was planning to ask you about that!
How did you do it? I know you mentioned that you had success in another thread, but I forget how you said you did it... did you have them coated in teflon? And... if I can do this, then why can't I use any kind of metal and wrap it up... wouldn't the plastic protect the metal from breaking down?
So many questions.
Oh... and I think the Turtle is rubbing off on you; now I'm having visions of Johhny Depp on the High Seas when I read your words. lol.
Thanks, IH.
LOL
Metal is conductive so you don't want that. Acrylic or Plexiglas is a good way to go.
Any hardware store should have small sheets you can buy. Just get enough to cover the 4 sides . Boxing the Cell stack in leaving the top and bottom open . GOOP is a good glue to use to do this as it does not break down in the process .You can get that just about all stores as well . This is a good way to start .
I will make a drawing for you tonight if you want to give it a go.
One other thing is the water level . I have found that the water level should be right
around the level of the plates if you go much higher than the cell takes alot more amps
,lower and the cell does not produce well .Does not have to be exact , just close.
Have fun
IronHead
Ok, I'll try it out on my next cell build. There's no space in this configuration. Don't worry abt the drawings... I can ask you for them when the time comes if needed... but I think I've got the basic idea.
More importantly... what are you using for a pulse/freq generator? I've got about 30 difft schematics, but from what I've read, some work, some don't. Is there one in particular that I should be looking at?
I've got an old cold war era EICO signal generator here... ;P And a closet full of parts for breadboarding. Just trying to establish my best build.
Thanks, Mark.
Oh wait! Now I know what you mean. I thought you were suggesting that I cover each individual plate, which didn't make a whole lotta sense to me. But this kinda does. I mean, I see the logic. I think. Yeah. I do. I'll try it. lol.
lol ok
If you need a basic schematic let me know.
Yes, please! :-)
While I work on that watch this videos if yo have not already .The end of this first video shows how to deliver Hydrogen to the engine . Try and watch it all if you have not . This is about straight Hydrogen but you are also using Oxygen which can be thought of as an enhancer . Does not matter the intake system should be setup the same way. This is just so much easier than for me to explain if you have not already done this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQl1q7XJ6Ng
EDIT
Try this it will help in production.
Then attach and drop it into the container :)
Oh and you don't need a real thick Plexiglas here.
I just made it thick so you can see it.If the fit is abit to tight just bevel
the edges with a sander.
Frequency,amps and voltage control
All my S-Cells use controllable PWMs . The large ones are Kurtis controllers
that have been moded .But the 48330 ESC Speed Control is my fav
this is mid volts,big amp, programmable controller .
http://robotcombat.com/marketplace_speedcontrollers.html
My Cells are made in a specific way
for resonance. This is why I dont tell people to buy these
type controllers . They might not work on there cell design as the design itself can be the problem.Not all Cells will work in frequency .So it is best to experiment in a small cell with a little 40$ PWM to start out. There are many thing you can do to tune the cell and signs that you learn when the cell responds to a change. This is also why the Cell I teach is a free floating plate system . So the plates can be removed and respond freely .
Its very complicated to explain. I am learning more and more how to do that every day.
Yeah, I think I'm going to try both. That is, feeding a line through the carb, and also removing it and rigging something up like he does in the next video. I'll try them both and see which one the engine likes best.
I've also got a second carb for this engine that I can play around with. But I'm going to cookup a backflow bubbler first. Plenty of time; I don't care if I come in last, as long as I win. lol.
Yes but... won't that restrict waterflow? How does the water get in around the cells and the hydrogen escape?
Heh... I'll try it; afterall, I've got nothin' to lose!
self pumping in through the bottom out through the top . and if you add a pump it will increase even more output.
the cool thing about GOOP is you can pull the stuff off like a rubber band most of the time. I would also say to sand all the plates down with a 24 or 36 grit to open the surface up this also will aid in production. Sanding in a vertical fashion is what I have found to work the best.
Do you know mozon1967 on YouTube . He is also working on a tractor.
Really nice guy . He just had a pretty scary explosion a few days ago
http://www.youtube.com/user/mozon1967
Yep, I've been watching in the background. Haven't contacted him yet... maybe I should handshake. :P
Have been trying not to bug people too much until I'm a little further along. There's only so many hours in a day for all of us. Doesn't seem right to borrow other people's time too much until I've at least proved that I'm serious.
Mark.
What a day.
I installed a bubbler, but... no bubbles?
Added a dash of electrolyte. Overheated my coil & blew my primary fuse. Visited a half dozen stores for a replacement fuse. Nobody carries that style.
Bypassed fuse. Lots of activity in the cell but still no bubbles.
Leaks. Must be leaks.
I borrowed a suggestion (I think from IH's thread) to turn the cell upside down. Nice. I can't find the reference now, but thank you to whoever suggested it.
All the gas had been pushing out through the holes for my charge terminals, which is a little scary since the only accidental pop I've had so far was caused by the spark from taking a gator clamp off the terminal without cutting the power first.
I'm starting to appreciate the importance of safety and... perseverance.
And to think...this is only the beginning.
IronHead: if you're reading this... it's okay to stop laughing now. :-)
Cheers, Mark.
Last week, I hooked my (10x) 3"x11" plates up to a 400watt 110v inverter... but fried the inverter.
This weekend I drained the water, added new distilled water with no electrolyte, and put 12v to the cell for 5 mins to warm it up. There was virtually no draw, sparse activity in the cell.
I replaced the 400watt deal with a 1kw, 115v AC inverter fused @ 20amps. Plugged-in the cell, and popped my fuse.
I decided to try hooking my unit up to the power mains, which produced absolutely no activity and blew a 20 amp fuse after 5 mins of runtime. I don't understand why I would get good activity in the cell @ 12v & 10a, and then nothing when I bump up to 115V! And why is there so much draw with absolutely no electrolyte?
So... I'm now planning to put this project on the back burner for a little bit, and get my hands on some new Stainless and set myself to work at reproducing IH's test cell. And I'll go from there. In spite of my 12v successes with this cell, I know it's not producing enough to run my 12HP engine. It's time for me to join the rest of the class.
The good news is: my 12HP engine and gen head will be ready and waiting for me when I come out the other side. lol.
Cheers, Mark.
Yo, Mark;
If ya cain't reduce the conductivity of yer water, try deionized water if y'all can get some. Better yet, go thru the cell and double yer spacing. Conductivity is a function of gap times dielectric coefficient of water, or the reciprocal of that, I think.
D I water only in the cell, and slowly adding a one molar solution of KOH [ that's 56.1 grams divided by percentage purity = add this weight to 1 litre D I water] will get you there, as long as y'all mix thoroughly whenever ye add. Stick an air hose in the bottom af cell and let the bubbles mix it fer ya. Jes a little whisper of air.
Turtle
Thanks, Turtle... but I still don't understand why there was absolutely no production @ 115v. Does this make any sense to you?
Try adding a diode to change the ac to dc, not a rectifier... ;)
@chuukie;
A single diode will allow half-wave ac to reach the cell, and the pulsing may indeed be beneficial. The bridge rectifier is four diodes in a diamond configuration, and when properly arrayed, will provide constant full wave (albeit 120 Hz) DC out.
@ Aphasiac;
Don't tell me yer sendin' AC to that thar monster... Say it ain't so, Martha!?!
AC won't git y'all where you wanna go. Gots to be DC with each plate maintaining the same polarity all the time. By pulsing, we refer to sending a pulse of DC current, then shutting it off fer a time, thenceforth applying said pulse once again, ad infinitum ad nauseum. Not unlike the light bub in yer flashmight whenever ye turn the switch on and off in rapid succession.
AC reverses the polarity 60 times a second (or whatever yer system runs at) and there ain't no time for the electrolytic process to get underway before the current turns around and heads the other direction.
Yes, there are systems that use AC riding on a DC main... we ain't goin' there in this thread (and I know next to nuthin' about that at this stage anyhow).
Mark, ol' buddy... y'all ain't lost it, have ye? Say it ain't so!!!
Turtle
lol. See, I knew you guys were using high volts DC current, but never questioned the obvious... I just thought it sounded cleaner and easier than having car batteries stacked ten high. And yes, I understand the whole concept of pulsing, although I also thought I read that some people are switching the polarity to improve output?
--Mark.
Quote from: Aphasiac on July 12, 2007, 03:36:51 PM
I borrowed a suggestion (I think from IH's thread) to turn the cell upside down. Nice. I can't find the reference now, but thank you to whoever suggested it.
Linnard Griffin HHO thread... Great new video there of RR2's closed loop.
The ac will short, but if you put a Diode in you have that covered, a rectifier will work on ac mains( in house) but not with an inverter, at least not with mine, cheap diodes at radio shack... and rectifiers, but not much in the amps dept. I only ad this because you say you have tried the inverter... this is some what gutsy...(dangerous) caution is advised, high voltage ac, or dc can... well obviously, kill you. thats all I am saying, love the project! Chuck
AC driven polarity switching on this type of Cell seems to have no positive effects at any frequency I have tried. Straight brute force DC works very well. Now of course this is much different from AC frequency riding a DC backbone like you see in the clipped alternator systems.
I would just start out with a rectifier like this to get you some nice high voltage DC going .
Rectifiers
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=166
.
Quote from: IronHead on July 23, 2007, 02:50:45 PM
I would just start out with a rectifier like this to get you some nice high voltage DC going .
Rectifiers
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=166
I just ordered up two of them. As well as some 9amp Diodes.
In the meantime, I'll get to work on my leaks. I sealed the electrode terminal holes up with autogoop. But the goop just isn't strong enough. Maybe I'll try the model glue idea of Turtle's.
--Mark.
Quote from: Bouzouki on July 24, 2007, 08:14:42 PM
Try making some new water. Distilled is the worst thing to use.
... this IronHead guy is off his flippin rocker.
you should check out this guys knowledge I think he has aussie help or something. lol
@ Bouzouki: Thanks for the advice, though the cell I'm referring to here is a little different.
Oh, and... the one thing that strikes me as odd about your IH comments is... seems to me you're using his cell design, aren't you? lol.
We're workin' toward a common goal here, which means that no matter how you choose to crack your nut, we're all sane in here.
Proudly Humble,
Mark.
Thats all a quote from me man even the part about this guy is off his flipping rocker as in third person :)
The only part of that post that is not quote is him saying I am aussie or working with aussie techniques
This is true I have learned from everything in the HHO world from Joe to Meyer and much more .
Ironhead
Ahhhh, ok. All makes good sense now. :P
Cheers!
@ Aphasiac
Just passing through checking out the different kinds of controllers used here, physical make up and the likes. I live in an apartment complex so this kind of thing is out for me.
On the gas leaks you are having. I ran into a glue that you might try out. Its called gorilla glue. Once it sets, its there for good. Not sure if it will withstand the KOH tho. Just a thought for you to try.
Also there is a fellow trying SS screen and laying it horizontal and seems to get a lot more gas that way. Stephan knows of him. Good luck to you all.
thaelin
@aphasiac;
higher voltage bridges. I use 'em and ain't burnt one up yet
http://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?numrec=10&sort=1&search=rectifier&UID=2007021700051064
@thaelin;
Gorilla glue is polyurethane based, and should hold up cuz that's similat to goop, I think. But gorilla glue expands as it cures, and the "foam effect" may give yer joints the squirts- ain't tried it yet but worth a try.
Learn from the mistakes of others- in this business y'all may not get a second chance
<somber grin>
Turtle
I installed one of those bridge rectifiers as Ironhead and KiethTurtle suggested, along with a 400watt rated dimmer switch. I got nothing through the DC-AC inverter, but blew the pot. So I replaced with an 800watt pot, and still nothing but lots of humming. Bypassed the pot. Still nothing. Connected to the power mains, running through the Rectifier, and still nothing. Absolutely no activity in the cell at 115Volts, 30 AMPS DC (3,400 WATTS) !!!!
Hook 12V/24V batteries up in series, and I get activity. Why is this? I don't want 500lbs of battery. I want to make this inverter work! and... with less power, not more! lol.
What am I doing wrong?
Please don't take offense at this, I mean no harm. The rectifier has two sine wave signs,,,the ac is connected to these opposite corners, the dc out wires are connected to the other two corners.
@ Yikes: lol. no offence taken. But of course... it is hooked up with the AC line from the Inverter to the AC marked posts on the rectifier. And then +/- DC running from the DC connects of the rectifier to the Cell.
BTW: I love your avatar!
--Mark.
Both your avitars creep me out...
J/K :D
~Dingus Mungus
Not to be too off topic, yeah yikes, your avatar is freakishly scary. I wouldn't want to get that ostrich after me. LOL Them are some scary as hell teeth on that sucker. hehe
Same goes for David Spade... :D
LOL ;D. We're getting waaaay off topic here guys. Let's get it back to Aphasic's problem
It's all good. Everyone needs a break from reality.
Speaking of diversions from reality... Spade is my doppleganger.
Thanks a lot, Dingus. :P
lol.
I got 3 names for ya...
Kristy Swanson, Lara Flynn Boyle, Danneel Harris
Nothing I would worry about...
~Dingus
lol. After I've resolved my rectifier issues. Hydrogen first. Air-brush girls will just have to get in line.
Have you tested the DC legs with a DMM?
If voltage is there it may be your plates...
Try sand papering your plate faces, or moving them closer together.
If you're over amping the inverter you may need to add some space.
Good luck!
~Dingus Mungus
Good news,aphasiac;
I have jes procured an aged but working 12 hp riding mower, elec start, etc. I'm looking forward to comparing notes.
Mebbe we can enter 'em in the race at the fair...
<grin>
Turtle