Overunity.com Archives

Have a look at this new nanoparticel carbon in cellulose paper cell:

http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=2280&setappvar=page(1)

Very interesting !

It is a very interesing idea to put conductive carbon or graphite into
its own cellulose paper and thus build bigger conductive graphite paper plates this way.

Now what was new to me is, that there exists ionic liquids,
that have just ions in them.

That is the perfect fuel for these paper electrodes, as a supercapacitor
is just working this way, that it has a soaked up ions in its electrode mesh.

Thus the ions charge up the electrode plates and when one electrode
plate has positive ions in them and the other electrode plate has
negative ions in them you can connect a load between the electrodes and
a current will flow...

Now, how do we get cheap ionic liquids ?

How can we just charge up water and sperate it, so that one
can get one bottle full of OH- ions and one bottle
of H3O+ ions ?

Any idea ?

Put one graphite paper plate in OH-
and another one in H3O+ and
voila you have a very nice refillable battery/supercapacitor
which can be refilled just by the ionic liquids !

Regards, Stefan.

Does anyone find their paper:

"Flexible Energy Storage Devices Based on Nanocomposite Paper"

anywhere on the net and can post it here ?
Many thanks.

Hi Stephan,

Just have one container of Acid (H₃O⁺ <--> H⁺ + H₂O) Say hydrochloric or sulfuric acid, that will give you your hydronium ions.

and the other container of Base ( H₂O <--> H⁺ + OH^-) say sodium or potassium hydroxide, that will give you your hydroxide ions.

Wait a minute, lol, does this sound like a battery? Very interesting. It will probably work just like a battery too.

Advantages? Not sure.

Hi ResinRat,
no, we need a ionic liquid
where we don?t have charge equilibrium !

So how can we extract from water just the OH- ions for example ?
or have more OH- ions in water than H+ ( or H3O+) ions ?

Can this be done by charging up water somehow in 2 containers ?
One which will be more positive and one will be more negative ?

Hmm,I am puzzled and mixed up now...
Does an acid have more H+ ions than its Minus ions ?

and
Does a Base have more OH- ions than Positive H+ ions ?

Quote from: hartiberlin on August 24, 2007, 01:14:01 PM
Hmm,I am puzzled and mixed up now...
Does an acid have more H+ ions than its Minus ions ?

and
Does a Base have more OH- ions than Positive H+ ions ?

Yes to both. The acid disassociates almost completely as in the case of hydrochloric acid (strong acid):
HCl --> H⁺ + Cl^- this automatically gives an excess of H⁺ ions in the aqueous solution. The only other compound the hydrogen ion has to bond with in the aqueous solution is the water molecule in this way: H₂O + H⁺ <--> H₃O⁺.

The base dissociates as well as with sodium hydroxide (strong base). NaOH --> Na⁺ + OH^-

This automatically gives an excess of OH^- ions in the aqueous solution. Since water by itself has a small dissociation constant it also dissociates naturally (very small concentration in normal water)

H₂O <--> H⁺ + OH^-.

So the excess OH^- ions in the base solution would push the equilibrium to the water side.   This should give you what you are looking for.

I am just not sure if the Na⁺ concentration of ions in the basic solution and the Cl^-in the acid solution would somehow alter the potential for making a current. Maybe this would be the reason it wouldn't work? I am not sure.

Sorry, I missed where it says that there is no water in this ionic liquid. Sorry Stephan. I'm on the wrong track.

G'day all,

Perhaps just a little off the subject, but have a look at this:

10/November/2005
Singapore Scientists Develop Personal Biochip Battery

(Singapore) -- Physicists in Singapore have succeeded in creating the first paper battery that generates electricity from urine. This new battery will be the perfect power source for cheap, disposable healthcare test-kits for diseases such as diabetes.

Scientists in research groups around the world are trying to design ever smaller ?biochips? that can test for a variety of diseases at once, give instant results, and, crucially, can be mass produced cheaply. However, until now, no one has been able to solve the problem of finding a power source as small and as cheap to fabricate as the detection technology itself.

Led by Dr. Ki Bang LEE, a research team at Singapore?s Institute of Bioengineering and Nanotechnology (IBN) have developed a paper battery that is small, cheap to fabricate, and which ingeniously uses the bio-fluid being tested (e.g. urine) as the power source for the testing device.

The chemical composition of urine is widely used as a way of testing for telltale signs of various diseases and as an indicator of a person?s general state of health. For example, the concentration of glucose in urine is a useful diagnostic tool for diabetics. The lead researcher, Dr. LEE, envisions a world where people will easily be able to monitor their health at home using disposable test-kits that do not need lithium batteries or external power sources.

Dr. LEE said, ?We are striving to develop cheap, disposable credit card-sized biochips for disease detection. Our battery can be easily integrated into such devices, supplying electricity upon contact with bio-fluids such as urine.?
Page 7 of 12 ATIP Japan Office Harks Bldg, 1F 6-15-21 Roppongi Minato-ku Tokyo 106-0032 Japan www.atip.org

The battery unit is made from a layer of paper that is steeped in copper chloride (CuCl) and sandwiched between strips of magnesium and copper. This ?sandwich? is laminated to keep it together. Lamination involves wrapping the ?sandwich? in transparent plastic film and passing it through a roller heated to 120?C. The final product has dimensions of 60 mm x 30 mm, and a thickness of just 1 mm (a little bit smaller than a credit card).

Writing in the Journal of Micromechanics and Microengineering, Dr. LEE describes how the battery was created and quantifies its performance. Using 0.2 mL of urine, they generated a voltage of around 1.5 V with a corresponding maximum power of 1.5 mW. Dr. Lee?s research team also found that the battery?s performance (such as voltage, power or duration) may be designed or adjusted by changing the geometry or materials used.

?Our urine-activated battery would be integrated into biochip systems for healthcare diagnostic applications,? says Dr. LEE. He envisions a world where people will easily be able to monitor their health at home, seeking medical attention only when necessary. ?These fully integrated biochip systems have a huge market potential,? adds Dr. LEE.
The work complements the "Intelligence Toilet" system, created by Japan's largest lavatory company, Toto, that can measure sugar levels in urine, blood pressure, body fat, and weight, but costs nearly US$3000.

(Source: Journal of Micromechanics and Microengineering)

Hans von Lieven

Hi Hans,
it is not an urine battery, but just an urine ACTIVATED battery !

The consuming elements are still copper and mostly the magnesium metals !
The urine is just the electrolyte, but the most expensive consumed materials
are copper and magnesium in this design...

If anybody finds a battery solution, where only the urine is consumed,
please post it here.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Quote from: ResinRat2 on August 24, 2007, 01:50:40 PM

Quote from: hartiberlin on August 24, 2007, 01:14:01 PM
Hmm,I am puzzled and mixed up now...
Does an acid have more H+ ions than its Minus ions ?

and
Does a Base have more OH- ions than Positive H+ ions ?

Yes to both. The acid disassociates almost completely as in the case of hydrochloric acid (strong acid):
HCl --> H⁺ + Cl^- this automatically gives an excess of H⁺ ions in the aqueous solution. The only other compound the hydrogen ion has to bond with in the aqueous solution is the water molecule in this way: H₂O + H⁺ <--> H₃O⁺.

The base dissociates as well as with sodium hydroxide (strong base). NaOH --> Na⁺ + OH^-

This automatically gives an excess of OH^- ions in the aqueous solution. Since water by itself has a small dissociation constant it also dissociates naturally (very small concentration in normal water)

H₂O <--> H⁺ + OH^-.

So the excess OH^- ions in the base solution would push the equilibrium to the water side.   This should give you what you are looking for.

I am just not sure if the Na⁺ concentration of ions in the basic solution and the Cl^-in the acid solution would somehow alter the potential for making a current. Maybe this would be the reason it wouldn't work? I am not sure.

Hi ResinRat and All,

I did yeasterday an experiment with 25 % vinegar acid in one drinking glas with a graphite rod
in there and in a second drinking glas NaOH solution from a lye pipe cleaner with also a graphite rod
in there as the second electrode.

If you connect the 2 drinking glasses with a soaked paper saltwater "bridge" made from paper
towel soaked into saltwater, then you will get a voltage onto
the 2 graphite rods of about 0.1 Volts.
If I replaced the saltwater soaked paper towel with an alufoil
bridge touching in the first glas the acid and in the other
glas the NaOH solution base,
the voltage was about 0.2 Volts, but the short circuit current was quite low,
in the range of only 50 mikroamps, not very useful.

So as a base or acid solution is still
neutral all in all in its own charge, this does not work.
So we really need ionic liquids, where the liquid already is "charged".

So we need 2 ionic liquids, one charged positively and one charged negatively
to get a good fuel cell.

Regards, Stefan.

the ionic fluid is a specialized liquid that "accepts" oins very easily.

the charge is applied with an electric current. and is already at about a 2% effeciency.

meaning 98% of the electricity used was wasted in the charging process.
if you were to find a way to convert ALL of the ion-pairs in both fluids back into electricity you would only get back 2% of the energy required to energize the fluids.

this stuff was designed more for experimental purposes than as an economically viable medium for energy transfer.

Hi Stefan,

I was looking back on this and I wonder if the use of powerful magnets could help separate the charges. I am thinking of a positive side of one magnet exposed on one side of a container and the negative side of another magnet exposed on the other side of the container. This should concentrate the charges on opposite sides of the container. This would also repel like charges to further segregate the ions.

Would this be enough to generate a current directly from the liquid? In this case I am thinking of any liquid that separates completely, as say an NaOH or KOH solution. I don't happen to have any powerful magnets to try this with, and I also don't have the carbon rods either; but I think you can see what I am getting at.

NaOH ---> Na⁺ + OH^- solution.

Na⁺ on one side of the container and OH^- ions on the other side of the container.

No salt bridge needed, all in the same container.

Just an idea.

Quote from: hartiberlin on August 24, 2007, 12:43:15 PM
Does anyone find their paper:

"Flexible Energy Storage Devices Based on Nanocomposite Paper"

anywhere on the net and can post it here ?
Many thanks.

Flexible energy storage devices based on nanocomposite paper

Victor L. Pushparaj *, Manikoth M. Shaijumon *, Ashavani Kumar *, Saravanababu Murugesan , Lijie Ci *, Robert Vajtai, Robert J. Linhardt, Omkaram Nalamasu *, and Pulickel M. Ajayan *

Departments of *Materials Science and Engineering and Chemical and Biological Engineering, and Center for Biotechnology and Interdisciplinary Studies, Rensselaer Nanotechnology Center; Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY 12180

Communicated by Mildred S. Dresselhaus, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, July 11, 2007 (received for review February 23, 2007)

=> see attachment!

G'day all,

Dave, do you mean an arrangement like this one below?

Hans von Lieven

 ;D Hi Hans,

Yes, yes, you have the general idea.  ;D

Would it matter if it was two magnets or connected like you show?

This was just a Crazy-Friday Idea that came to me this morning. (That's a crazy idea I have on a Friday.)

Thanks for the graphics.

try this 4 a super battery,carpenters flat pencil for the positive,a scew for the neg or zink,mix a solution of regular bleach,white vinegar, table salt,got over 2 volts,alway use carpenters flat pencil,as pos tryed diffrent metals for neg,got voltage with just plain water.
                                                                                                      jrader

Quote from: ResinRat2 on December 14, 2007, 06:09:05 PM
;D Hi Hans,

Would it matter if it was two magnets or connected like you show?

G'day Dave,

I really don't know. It just seemed to be the natural thing to do to use a single magnet in the arrangement. Only trial will show if something different happens with two magnets.

Alternatively, what do you think of using a static electricity field instead, say with about 10 KV potential between electrodes that are placed where the magnet poles are now. There would not be any current flowing so it would need very little energy to maintain the field.

Short of trying these things there is really no satisfactory way of telling what, if anything, happens in this arrangement. I guess I have to get some caustic soda  ;D

Hans von Lieven

Hi Stefan,

Replying to an old thread. How is this for an example of creating ionically charged water?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A&feature=PlayList&p=2A541A1A1EF48674&playnext=1&index=2

If you don't allow the static to discharge, you will have charged water in each container. One H₃O⁺ and the other OH^-.

Kvolts of potential.

Sorry, link didn't work.

This is the correct link address:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A&feature=PlayList&p=2A541A1A1EF48674&playnext=1&index=2

The words of the instructor, Walter Lewin, say it all. "This is the most remarkable thing I've seen in my entire life."

Can a battery be made from this?

Crazy Friday Idea:

Battery charging station based off the Kelvin Water Drop Generator.

Static charges batteries.

Walter Lewin video on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A&feature=PlayList&p=2A541A1A1EF48674&playnext=1&index=2

I wonder what would happen if the water was not allowed to discharge and it was instead run through the hydrogen and oxygen sides of a fuel cell? Wouldn't we then get a current produced from the H₃O⁺ water going through the hydrogen inlet port and the OH^- water going through the oxygen port?

Hmmmmm...

@ Resin

Fascinating video!

As the lecturer was asking, it makes me think about why the effect spreads the water.

It also makes me wonder a host (lot) of other things like:

What is it about the kinetic motion of water falling that is allowing it's electrons protons to be stripped by falling through an electrically conductive tube? Static friction w/ the air?

How does each conductive tube choose the polarity it achieves?

Why does the conductive tube as it nears saturation spread the water (attract the opposite charge than the one that saturates it)?

If you'd ground one side, which polarity would the other take (positive I assume)?

If you did that (grounding), would the non-grounded side result in the ionic fluid that Stephan is looking for?

Amazing stuff! It makes me look at rain in a whole new way.

Thanks for posting this!

To me this thing looks amazing. I know it's been around for a couple of hundred years and I am sure many people have tried to develop  a power supply out of the design. I just can't  believe the potential of 15,000 volts. The amps must be very, very tiny; but I can't help thinking that if the right design was developed it could somehow run a very low power water pump that could get the water back up into the top reservoir.

Just a dream, probably. I am sure the power generated by the falling water drops would still not be enough to power a pump to get the water back up. It could though, as you said, probably produce the ionized water that Stefan is looking for as H₃O⁺ and OH^- charged in separate containers that carbon rods could be inserted into to generate a power supply.

I wish I could find the follow-up video that explains it in detail, but I have not been able to locate it yet.

I agree, it is fascinating.

this might help

- Electric charge
· Coulomb’s law
· Electric field
· Electric flux
· Gauss’ law
· Electric potential
· Electrostatic induction
· Electric dipole moment

for a short explanation
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/emotor/kelvin.html

@ Resin

Actually, if some HHO production experimentation proves out (high volts/low amps) to significant production, I think your 1st HHO idea would be a sure fire winner!

Given the production of enough gas, steam (either through heating water or the exhaust of the HHO flame) could condensate above the upper collector (dripper) and be self fueling.

@ NOP

Gratzi. I was not aware of Kelvins experiement and the eskimo.com link provided some answers that the video did not (grounded drippers, etc.)

Still some interesting things to ponder. ;)

If water dripping produces voltage, would steam in the same setup do the same? or you could run it off the sun, use the evaporation/condensation to bring the water to the top, that is, if the effect still works in a closed environment


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                                / CONNDENSATION  I
                              /                           ^     I
  _______________/                                   I
/  H20   ______H20___________/       ^       I
v          v              I                                     I
I I        I I              I                       ^            I
I I        I I              I                STEAM         I
\/         \/              I                                    I
                           I                                    I
-           -             I                                    I
                           I                                    I
I    I     I   I            I                                    I
I    I\  / I   I            I                                    I
       X                  I                                    I
I    I/   \I   I            I                  ^^^^^            I
I    I     I   I            I               STEAM          I
                           I                                    I
WATER>>>>>>>>>>>>                            I
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                                        HEAT




post from KOEN in topic: Condensation/Vaporisation electoral generator idea


Hi everyone,

I've had an idea for an electrical generator based on vaporisation and
condensation of fluids, and I welcome any replies or comments on this.

Basic idea is based on the fact that vapours (like steam for example)
create a charge on the surface on which they condensate. This charge
is normally negative. Oppositely, when vapour forms, the surface (or substance)
they vaporise from gains a positive charge.
(the "Mills Law of Electron Transfer Via Matter State Changes," says that
when matter changes states, (solid to liquid, liquid to solid, liquid to gas
or gas to liquid), there will be a corresponding transfer of electrons.)

Based on this, imagine the following and extremely simple setup:
A steel cylinder that is closed at the bottom and open at the top,
upon which is fixed an isolating cylinder that is open at the bottom and
top, so that it connects perfectly with the bottom container, upon which
in turn is fixed another metal cylinder, open at the bottom and closed at
the top. The top should be a cone, with the 'tip' pointing downward.
If necessary, heat (actually cooling) fins may be attached to this.
There is a liquid in the bottom part of this setup, such as water.
Now we heat the water using a simple heater or fire from the bottom.
Water will form vapour, this will rise up, and condensate against the cone
'lid'. The drops will drip down into the bottom part of the container,
where they will again vaporise after some time, and this process will continue.
Very straightforward, I would say.
Now let's say we attach wires to the top and bottom part, and attch the
ends to a capacitor. In theory, if there was only vaporisation and condensation
going on, the top of our container should induce a negative charge in the
connected capacitor plate, while the bottom part of the container
should induce a positive charge on its respective plate.
BUT! The phenomenon of thermo- (or pyro-) electricity is well known, and this
involves electrons moving from a hot conductor into a cold(er) one.
This would mean that the bottom part, which is directly heated by our heat
source, should induce a negative charge in the wire and connected
capacitor plate. More so if we would connect the wire from the colder
top with the wire from the hot bottom part...

Question: Would the negative charge formed by condensation on the
top part of our container be smaller, greater, or equal to that induced
in the bottom by heating it? And also, would the positive charge
that should be generated in the bottom by vaporisation outweigh the
negative charge induced pyroelectrically in the bottom part? 
I have not calculated this, and I'm sure there are some involved in the
art that are more adept at calculating such matters than I am.
I welcome input from anyone who is willing to calculate this.

Possible solution in case both the top and bottom part show to
generate negative charge, even though one may be less than
the other, could be to use diodes and either connect both to their
own seperate negative capacitor plates, or connect each to its own
negative capacitor plate. The positive capacitor plate(s) could then
either directly or through a diode be connected to the ground.
In any case the charge of the capacitor could of course be used.

If the connection of the bottom wire needs a heat sink in order
for the possible thermoelectric effect to produce useable charge,
one could be sunk into the ground. In this case we may need to
use a transformer to use the current flow produced by this, the
secondary output of this can again be routed to the respective
plates of the capacitor.

Other possible variations would be to use a liquid other than water,
that might provide a greater electron exchange... Mercury might
provide a greater exchange of electrons... It also needs much less
heat to form vapour... Downside here is that mercury is poisonous
and therefore hard to obtain in many countries.

So, what do you guys think about this idea??
Please reply if you have any comments, ideas, suggestions or other
reactions. 

Kind regards,
Koen

Hi Koen,

One of the desired conditions for this to work was listed that the humidity level needs to be kept as low as possible. That would probably be difficult in a closed system, especially one that uses steam unless you could isolate the two sides somehow to keep the air on the static generating side dry. Just like at home when you have low humidity in the air and it is easier to generate a static spark.

It takes a lot of energy to produce steam. Solar is good, and it would be better than burning some fuel source. I just was hoping to get something running that could operate both day and night and didn't depend on solar power. In that case you might as well just use solar cells to generate the electricity.

Still thinking about this one. Looking for inspiration.

@ resinrat- that was repost of koen's post from another topic, just to give credit where its due....

Quote from: PYRODIN123321 on January 27, 2009, 12:14:46 PM
@ resinrat- that was repost of koen's post from another topic, just to give credit where its due....

LOL! That's funny, sorry, I was going by the signature at the bottom.

My dumb! LOL!

Hey ResinRat!!

look at this!

http://www.impactlab.com/2009/01/24/new-way-to-produce-hydrogen-discovered/ (http://www.impactlab.com/2009/01/24/new-way-to-produce-hydrogen-discovered/)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205125336.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/02/050205125336.htm)

I'll post it in the HHO thread too.

I read the articles, very interesting. This looks like it will be an interesting area of research but they don't really describe the specialized techniques they use to form these clusters. Did you notice that once the hydrogen is formed on the cluster that the site that the OH^- ion binds to is no longer open to reacting until they develop a way to pull that ion away from the cluster again? So it looks to me like they still have much more development that is needed to get anything useful out of this type of research as far as hydrogen gas formation goes.

What you did is give me a spark of inspiration though. I wonder if the side of the water that is collected from the water drop generator with the H₃O⁺ ions is subjected to normal electrolysis without anything added to it would have a lower energy requirement to break the Hydrogen - water bond, thus producing hydrogen gas much more easily.

Also, what would happen if aluminum electrodes were used to produce electrolysis in the side that collects the OH^- ions from the reactor?

It might give ionic water that can produce hydrogen at a lower energy requirement than normal deionized water without electrolytes added.

Thanks PYRODIN123321

Any time bro!