Here are some pictures of my tubes with the white powdery coating on them. I conditioned them for 4 hours @ 12v 1A. I changed the water every 20 mins and let the tubes dry in front of a fan for 10 mins. I have also included a picture of my old setup that i tryed to condition without taking them out to dry and they just turned black. So the key here is to let them dry so that the coating has time to form.
Tubes drying
Tubes from old setup that I did not take out to dry, just turned black...
Quote from: Duranza on September 10, 2007, 12:37:03 PM
Here are some pictures of my tubes with the white powdery coating on them. I conditioned them for 4 hours @ 12v 1A. I changed the water every 20 mins and let the tubes dry in front of a fan for 10 mins. I have also included a picture of my old setup that i tryed to condition without taking them out to dry and they just turned black. So the key here is to let them dry so that the coating has time to form.
Nice work, can you yet confirm that your white powder is non-conductive by testing with a meter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx2uEsbTt8Y
Thanks!, keep up the good work.
It sure is nonconductive... I get no reading with a meter. The best part is that bubbles don't stick to it...
I'm using T304 for both tubes and my positive one is corroding with oxidation. I wonder if T316 would too.. If it doesn't I might have to try switching. I have heard that you can use titanium for the possitive and SS for the negative. I still got lots of experimenting to do.
Here is a picture of my bifilar pancake chokes between acrylic disks.
Quote from: Duranza on September 11, 2007, 02:40:57 PM
Here is a picture of my bifilar pancake chokes between acrylic disks.
Now thats impressive!, can you explain how you wound it and the former you used?
Oh, and the number of turns including wire gauge please.
I used 22 swg magnet wire bifilar wound with 100 turns. The coil was wound between 2 acrylic disks that are sandwiched with a 24 swg spacer in the center. It was real easy to do, and seems to reduce the amps big time. The positive side if the cell is connected to the one of the inside leads of the pancake and the negative is connected to the outside.
The bifilar choke has four leads, no? And yer only using both ends of the same wire, outer edge and from the center?
Nice approach- wonder what the mag field looks like around it?!?
Turtle
Yes there are 4 leads. Outside ones are to negative cell tube and pulse positive in, and the inside are to positive cell and negative pulse in.
My next step is to make 2 bifilar pancakes side by side. One for each electrode and connect them like tesla's patent. That should be interesting.
Quote from: Duranza on September 10, 2007, 12:37:03 PM
Here are some pictures of my tubes with the white powdery coating on them. I conditioned them for 4 hours @ 12v 1A. I changed the water every 20 mins and let the tubes dry in front of a fan for 10 mins. I have also included a picture of my old setup that i tryed to condition without taking them out to dry and they just turned black. So the key here is to let them dry so that the coating has time to form.
I found the same thing with regards to leaving the tubes in the water, in the last 24 hours after redoing my tubes(cleaning and annealing) I've built up quite an oxide layer, I also discovered another interesting but undesirable effect, if you have the current below a certain threshold(less than 300ma in my case) then the crud starts badly, I've found that around 300 to 350ma for 30 minutes then dried over a stove to be very effective at building up good oxide layers.
Quote from: RunningBare on September 11, 2007, 11:47:54 PM
Quote from: Duranza on September 10, 2007, 12:37:03 PM
Here are some pictures of my tubes with the white powdery coating on them. I conditioned them for 4 hours @ 12v 1A. I changed the water every 20 mins and let the tubes dry in front of a fan for 10 mins. I have also included a picture of my old setup that i tryed to condition without taking them out to dry and they just turned black. So the key here is to let them dry so that the coating has time to form.
I found the same thing with regards to leaving the tubes in the water, in the last 24 hours after redoing my tubes(cleaning and annealing) I've built up quite an oxide layer, I also discovered another interesting but undesirable effect, if you have the current below a certain threshold(less than 300ma in my case) then the crud starts badly, I've found that around 300 to 350ma for 30 minutes then dried over a stove to be very effective at building up good oxide layers.
That's right on, but also do not go over 4 amps or the coating will flake off... I had an OOps last night trying to build it up some more with higher amps but it just flaked off like dandruf lol....
Threz a lot unsaid so try follow d conditionin process given by Ravi
>>>>Dats why Ravi's conditionin process has a max of 3 Amps!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Given procedure:
1. Donot use any resistance on the negative side when conditioning the pipes.
2. Start at 0.5 Amps on freq gen and switch off after 25 mins for 30 mins
3. Goto 1.0 Amps for 20 min and stop for 30 min
4. Goto 1.5 Amps for 15 min and stop for 20 min
5. Goto 2.0 Amps for 10 min and stop for 20 min
6. Goto 2.5 Amps for 5 min and stop for 15 min
7. Goto 3.0 Amps for 120 to 150 secs. need to check if WFC getting hot...if it does you need to reduce the time.
AFTER THE 7 STEPS ABOVE LET THE WFC STAND FOR ATLEAST AN HOUR BEFORE YOU START ALL OVER AGAIN.
You would hardly see any gas generation at the beginning but it makes a lot of brown muck.....change the water after every cycle initially. DONOT touch the tubes with bare hands if the tube ends need to be cleaned of muck use a brush but donot touch!! As per my experience the brown muck if left in water for the next cycle heats up the water and you need to avoid this.
Then you see the reduction in generation of the brown stuff over a period of time and at a point the pipes dont make any brown stuff atall. You would have had very good generation of gas by now. You get a whitish powdery coat on the surfaces. Never touch the pipes with bare hands once this comes on.
DO THE CONDITIONING IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA OR PREFERRABLY CLOSE THE TOP AND VENT THE GAS OUT IN THE OPEN.
AS THE WFC IS LEFT ON FOR QUITE SOMETIME EVEN SMALL AMOUNT OF GENERATION CAN GET ACCUMULATED IN A CONSTRICTED SPACE AND COULD BE A HAZARD.
The above process to be done after annealing the pipes....see to it that no oxide formation is left on the pipes...use a detergent to wash off the pipes and rinse them thoroughly with fresh water.....assemble the setup including the leads and base.....finally flush the pipes with lots of fresh water......donot touch the pipes with bare hands after this.......
Good Luck and happy conditioning......RAVI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
::) Gh. J.
chokes, or inductors, when the one end is OPEN, the coil becomes a CAPACITOR, when the pulse is shorter in length (time wise) than the length of the 'speed of transmission' of the coil. Below that frequency, the coil is 'invisible' to the load. This means, that if you need VERY high speed capacitance, that is FASTER than ANY capacitor, you need a large value coil. What you do, is you place it in the circuit the same way you would put a capacitor, ie, the positive to the hot line and then the other end of the cap to 'ground'. In this case, you do NOT close the circuit. You leave the 'ground' end of the coil OPEN, and the other end connected to where you need the high speed capacitance.
This is specific to buffering high speed DC rails in amplifiers of any sort, or a similar application. There will be a resonance. Exploit it.
I don't care what any given capacitor may be like. This is notably faster, when it comes to delivering pulse current.
Thanks for that informative reply Prophmaji. I have seen my power supply voltage go up from 13V to 14.2 with out the inductors being connected to the cell, but in series to eachother while adjusting frequencies... Nothing happens when the are left OPEN though....
Ok, it's been nearly 48 hours of testing my method of tube conditioning and it works!
As I stated earlier I put a large capacitor 3300mfd on the slow section of the pulser circuit, adjusted the mark/space till I got about 20 seconds on time 70 seconds off time, at the start of this process the inside of the outer tubes had rust on them, now they are shiney!, it should be noted that over this period of time I change the water and dry out the tubes so that the oxide layer on the inner tube becomes firmly fixed, the drying process is done over a warm stove gently, if the heat from the stove is too high then the up draft will carry away some of the loose oxide before drying is complete.
Ravi's is one method for oxidizing/conditioning and a good one, but it is not the only method.
ETA: the on current used in the process was 300 ma for my setup at 12 volts, this may vary depending on the number of cells, I only have two.
I have been using 500ma with mine after the flaking accident, and it's working great. I have found out why my tubes were rusting. It's beacuse i let the water get too brown. If I change the water sooner the stay clean. I'm using three tube sets. There has to be a math constant equation to keep it simple as far as voltgage/amps with tubes quantity.
Quote from: RunningBare on September 13, 2007, 06:14:25 AM
Ok, it's been nearly 48 hours of testing my method of tube conditioning and it works!
As I stated earlier I put a large capacitor 3300mfd on the slow section of the pulser circuit, adjusted the mark/space till I got about 20 seconds on time 70 seconds off time, at the start of this process the inside of the outer tubes had rust on them, now they are shiney!, it should be noted that over this period of time I change the water and dry out the tubes so that the oxide layer on the inner tube becomes firmly fixed, the drying process is done over a warm stove gently, if the heat from the stove is too high then the up draft will carry away some of the loose oxide before drying is complete.
Ravi's is one method for oxidizing/conditioning and a good one, but it is not the only method.
ETA: the on current used in the process was 300 ma for my setup at 12 volts, this may vary depending on the number of cells, I only have two.
Hi Runningbare,
Seems like you have a pretty straightforward way to do conditioning. I guess I'm gonna try it too when i have my replication done. Can you let us know how often you change water and dry the coating?
regards
Robert
I change the water when I see it begin to turn a pinkish color, it is actually rust but looks pink in the early stage, or if I'm feeling lazy I wait till the brown muck has collected on the surface ;D
Do not leave it too long when conditioning, it will eat your tubes before the oxide protection is in place, depending on your setup the ideal current for conditioning will have to be by trial and error, keep it low enough so the water does not heat up, but not too low, I've found anything below 200ma on mine seems to have a reverse effect, it does seem that 300ma for 30 minutes does me ok, then I dry the tubes as indicated earlier.
Quote from: dutchy1966 on September 13, 2007, 10:09:11 AM
Hi Runningbare,
Seems like you have a pretty straightforward way to do conditioning. I guess I'm gonna try it too when i have my replication done. Can you let us know how often you change water and dry the coating?
regards
Robert
Ok... another update... The coating has to be permeable to work... I tryed teflon coating some plates to test. After a few runs I got no bubbles at all. I figured that either i need a whole lot more voltage or the coating has to let some water though. The coating sure is nonconductive when dry, but not when humid. Lots more to work with... I'll post anything new....
Quote from: Duranza on September 15, 2007, 05:23:52 AM
Ok... another update... The coating has to be permeable to work... I tryed teflon coating some plates to test. After a few runs I got no bubbles at all. I figured that either i need a whole lot more voltage or the coating has to let some water though. The coating sure is nonconductive when dry, but not when humid. Lots more to work with... I'll post anything new....
If the coating is too thick then even the back emf from the coils will not overcome it, the tubes are capacitors in effect but they are being hit by a DC pulse, this will charge them until there is no potential difference so no more current flow.
The circuit will always need a current flow for the coils to do there work, this would happen through the waters own resistance where the tubes are not coated, eg inside of inner tube and outside of outer tube, if your using distilled water then the resistance will be too high for the coils to build a current charge.
Would you recomend using electrolyte with the coated plates? My first test was in distilled and then tap water and none worked... Only if more people were getting their hands dirty.... One of us will reach the goal sooner or later.....
Personally I will not use any electrolyte other than what is already in the tap water, this is the Meyer way and in my opinion how it should be replicated, adding electrolyte kinda defeats the purpose of "replicating" Meyers work, if however your tap water has low conductivity(which would be unusual given all the chemicals they throw into it!), then you may need to add something.
The claim by Stan Meyers was "HHO from tap water", and thats the way I'm replicating.
Quote from: Duranza on September 15, 2007, 10:11:11 AM
Would you recomend using electrolyte with the coated plates? My first test was in distilled and then tap water and none worked... Only if more people were getting their hands dirty.... One of us will reach the goal sooner or later.....
Well I just read the Stanley used Delrin as an insulator. No wonder he always stated you can use any water, even sea water. Having the SS insulated prevents oxidation, but you need to build up a big charge for it to work. This is coming from H2earth's so i trust it's credability. I'll keep at it and i'll just use tap water with the insulated plates until I get results.
Gentlemen: Please go to the news forum and read the 'white gold' thread in it's entirety, for some hints as to what exactly might be going on here. Don't worry too much if it's a bit strange for you. I know that some of you are going to have the odd 'epiphany' about what you are exactly doing, if you go over there and sift through the stuff I have posted. Read the entire thread. Also read the ER1200 water torch thread. (resonance systems and superconducting ceramic oxides)
While both threads will not spell anything out in perfect clarity..they will provide immense food for thought as to what exactly is going on here with the required oxide layers, and what exactly they may be. I would expect that if one were to make a solution from dead sea salts or the like (with distilled water) and used that create the oxide layer, the results might be more to your liking......an experiment that needs to take place, possibly..after you read both threads.
To add food for thought on top of what I say, go to the ZPE forum..and find the recent (one month old, or so) of the Russian supercapacitor that stores 900 times the energy of regular capacitor, via gold-nanoparticles.
Newby question, lhave my pipes and my circuit box D14 can l condition my pipes with this only. Apologies for ignorance but l'm totally out of my depth with techno speak. l'm producing heaps of small bubbles but no build up of powder. lf l can use my D14 on low output 30min on, dry, another 30m, dry, etc is that it, thanks
Regards
Peter
The way I found best is to Pulse them at the lowest frequency that will let you get to 200-300ma. Set the gating for a long off and short on bursts. Change the water as soon as it turns yellow. Don't let it get to brown or your pipes will rust.
Quote from: Prophmaji on September 12, 2007, 10:02:57 PM
chokes, or inductors, when the one end is OPEN, the coil becomes a CAPACITOR, when the pulse is shorter in length (time wise) than the length of the 'speed of transmission' of the coil. Below that frequency, the coil is 'invisible' to the load. This means, that if you need VERY high speed capacitance, that is FASTER than ANY capacitor, you need a large value coil. What you do, is you place it in the circuit the same way you would put a capacitor, ie, the positive to the hot line and then the other end of the cap to 'ground'. In this case, you do NOT close the circuit. You leave the 'ground' end of the coil OPEN, and the other end connected to where you need the high speed capacitance.
This is specific to buffering high speed DC rails in amplifiers of any sort, or a similar application. There will be a resonance. Exploit it.
I don't care what any given capacitor may be like. This is notably faster, when it comes to delivering pulse current.
The way my old prof taught me to understand this..was clear. He was instrumental in the design and implementation of the original radar [dew line] systems in the upper parts of Canada [alaska, etc] to serve as a early warning system on the old 'cold war' era.
When explaining the reasoning behind proper termination of electrial motor systems in conjunction with switches..the discussion turned to
inductive reactance. When a switch is opened, and there is an inductive load in series with this switch..the collapse of the stored energy in the INDUCTOR, not the capacitor.... will eventually, possibly even quickly, cause the switch to fail. He clearly explained that the energy stored in the inductor was actually connected to, on the most basic level..
every atom in the universe, in terms of alignment (if we wanted to be technically correct about it!)..and would have to realign, or repolarize itself, with regards to the polarized energy field, or current field surrounding it..from it's charged state...to it's uncharged state. Basically, you have a largely infinite change from DC current field to...nothing.......that must be converted to a voltage field..then back to a current/voltage spike..down the wire of the capcitor. The original current field must go somewhere. and it does. When the inductor has a open end..it has a voltage field that is identical throughout the lenght of the wire. When you have the voltage levels in the DC rail it is connected to..attemplting to drop in value..it cannot..as suddenly there is a difference in the voltage on one end of the inductor..compared to the other..and suddenly the static voltage field is turned into a extreme high speed dumping current field. But only for the time period that is expressed by the time factors involved inthe speed of propogation down that inductor's wire length.
And..most specifically..when that 'charge state' collapse, for a infinitesimally short period of time..the energy spike was actually INFINITE..but..we could not actually capture and record that infinitely huge and delicate leading edge.
Basically..a temporal disassociation and reconnection effect. Aligned into one state then changed to the next. This follows maxwell's equations in terms of the field considerations.
So..first you have this static charge state of the DC flow and energy field in the inductor. then the DC is 'cut'. the field must collapse. The instantaneous leading edge of the Field collapse..is infinite. For an infinitesimally small time period.
Capacitors have lagging time considerations due to inductive reactance and the fact that the energies must flow through a coiled conductor and coiled pathways. You would instinctively think that a really good capacitor is faster. But no.
in a circuit where you would use a capacitor where the foil lead is connected to the DC rail..and the other lead is connected to ground..a large value inductive coil..with the one inductor's lead connected to the same point on the DC rail as the foil leadÃ, of the capacitor..and the other lead on the coil is connected to NOTHING...that creates a 'statically charged' high speed coil. When the DC rail attempts to fluctuate in value..the capacitor steps in and dumps energy into the DC line. In the case of the INDUCTOR..which is coupled as stated..the coil will dump the energy it statically holds..at a MUCH FASTER rate thanthe capacitor..as it is a mode of 'inductive collapse' as it tries to maintain a static energy level within itself..it is doing what inductors do..it is
RESISTING change in it's charge or 'current field' value.
But, most importantly..it is ONLY doing this as FAST as the energy can travel down the enameled wire, ie, about 80% or so (depends on the given inductor design) of the speed of light or the speed of energy propagation down the wire that describes the length of wire in the inductor. SO..the 'energy dump' (inductive collapse) reaches a 'limit' in 'time it will dump energy into the DC rail' which is exactly equivalent to the length of wire and the speed of propagation in that wire. The longer the wire in the inductor..the longer it acts like a
open ended high speed capacitor.
If the inductor is coupled the way it is normally used in a circuit..this effect does not manifest itself as clearly.
This high speed collaping spike can be effectively used to drive the pulse current more effectively in the replication of Myer's work.
That is the entire point for my seeming ramble. My explanation is not technically perfect, but hopefully you guys get the point.
Only just seen this thread guys.
Some interesting stuff here... but where is Duranza nowadays? Can't find him on the OUPower forum either.
The electrode oxide layer is a real interest of mine at present. To me the oxide layer (Chromium Oxide) will build up on the anode due to oxidation, and be enhance by the presence of pure O2, but these guys seem to be getting a white crud build up on the cathode, which they are also trying to work for them.
Now, as ss only really corrodes badly in an oxygen deficient environment, we have to assume that the ss cathode has lost its natural protective chromuim oxide layer and other elements of the ss are reacting... but what with... the hydrogen? Whatever is happening at the cathode should be a reducion rather than oxidation reaction, so it seems to me that the white crud is unlikely to be an oxide of sorts. That is not to say that it's dielectric properties do not go into enhancing the properties of the water capacitor, it's just another mystery to ponder... unless someone already knows the answer!
An interesting point was made by someone above somewhere, that a teflon coated electrode did not work at all, as it was simply too good an insulator. This again would tend to indicate that not only are we relying on a oxide layer to act as a dielectric, but also to breakdown once a certain charge level has been reached, before self-healing again.
All very interesting and very relevant.
I'm at present conversing with Bob Boyce on another forum, and thought, as many of you are probably aware of Bob, that I'd bring the conversation over here.
So, for anyone interested it would seem that my ideas on cell conditioning and its function within the wfc are at real odds with his.
He calls the dielectric oxide layer, a 'catalytic coating'. Don't know why yet. He claims to know what is happening in his cell when its being pulsed, but I'm not so sure. I'm hoping he can explain it in scientific terms and provide some reaction equations.
This is his post:
QuoteFarrahDay,
Testing was done woth both the 304/304L and 316/316L. I only gave the worst performer and best performer as a comparison. Carbon content only made a slight difference;
304 = 198%
304L = 200%
316 = 235%
316L = 238%
The addition of molybdenum was suspected to be the main factor in the performance difference. This was confirmed by the addition of traces of molybdenum to KOH electrolyte during the conditioning of 304L. The resultant catalytic coating performed just as well as that obtained from properly prepared 316L. The traces of nickel and molybdenum that are liberated during the cleansing phase of 316 or 316L play a big role in the makeup of this catalytic layer that is formed during conditioning.
I am very aware of why my system performs the way it does. Meyer relied upon the conditioned coating (which takes some time to develop), just as mine does. Only my design uses multiple cells in series to make an even higher impedance cell stack. In my system, the catalytic coating does not have to be so thick, nor does it have to be dielectric. Mine . Applied DC potential is kept below that threshold to entrain the water, and the 3 high frequency pulses are applied through the toroidal transformer that carries that entraining potential. The result is the entraining potential is modulated with the desired waveforms. These pulses do occur in trains with relaxation intervals.
I think the main difference between my system and Meyers is that mine uses electrolyte to increase conductivity within the water and multiple cells to build high impedance, while Meyer required more of a dielectric layer to reach high impedance. The Meyer method results in only surface action that does not penetrate deeply into the water, while my method uses the conductivity of the electrolyte to carry the modulated energy throughout the water completely. This is why cells using my method do not just evolve bubbles at the electrode surfaces, but throughout the entire liquid volume.
For those that do not understand the underlying energy brought about by pulsing inductors, the Meyer system may look like it works differently than it really does. Just like mine, anyone looking at it just assumes that it is just a brute force DC system. While it can be used in that way at higher applied potential / current, that is not the way it works in resonance mode. Both systems are far more than they appear, as they are energy systems coupled to water cells with the intent of coupling specific evironmental energy into the water for disassociation purposes. People like Bedini and Beardon may understand this sort of energy only too well, but I really do not expect most other people to understand this. Especially those that are so thoroughly entrenched in traditional science that they cannot see beyond it.
Bob
To me Bob's post brings up more questions than it answers, but maybe he will be more forthcoming in future posts. However, there are things that ring alarm bells for me. One being the fact that he talks about impedance, but never mentions the capacitance of his multicell wfc... and for anyone familiar with Bob's 100 x (6" x 6") plate cell, that's what he has, a lot of series capacitors.
This bit rings some alarm bells for me as it seems to be a direct contradiction of itself. Bob states:
QuoteI think the main difference between my system and Meyers is that mine uses electrolyte to increase conductivity within the water and multiple cells to build high impedance, while Meyer required more of a dielectric layer to reach high impedance
If he wants greater impedance, why add electrolyte to increase conductivity? There appears to be a certain illogic to that statement.
The other thing is his reference to his design having a catalytic coating that does not need to be dielectric?? Strange as that's surely exactly what it will be... a dielectric! He also states his design, 'uses the natural barrier voltages of water (electrolyte) to metal contact to build up an accumulated effective high impedance'. This sounds like Meyer speak to me. What this means is anyones guess.. has anyone ever heard of
the natural barrier voltage of water?Bob might be right and my ideas might be totally wrong, but if his ideas are going to infIuence my thinking in anyway then I need him to provide some real science to support and explain some of his statements.
You may or may not have already seen this post elsewhere, but to balance the argument, this is my post and what I think more likely is happening:
Quote[When pulsing a square wave, unlike a sinewave where the voltage rises gradually, the square wave voltage is almost instantly at maximum. Now, across the resonant charging cct inductor, the voltage is 90 degrees out of phase with the current through it - the voltage leads, the current follows. Now, if the tiny little fast moving electrons can't keep up with the voltage, the relatively massive bulky ion impurities in the tap water certainly will not be able to do so.
Therefore we have a voltage across our wfc before the electrons get there, and well before the ions get there. As this goes on, charges are accumulating on the electrodes, waiting to exchange charges with the ions in the water, but... the electons at the cathode (and +ve holes at the anode) will be gathering far more quickly than the ions. A bottle neck forms and the charges on the electrodes continue to accumulate until massive dielectric breakdown occurs. At this stage, rapid ionisation of the water occurs and we get lots of gas, but as there is such an excess of charges on the electrodes, that no great surge of current through the electrical cct will occur. We are simply using up these charges, while the rest of the electrical cct carrys on the charging process. It will be important that the charges on the electrodes are not totally depleted, or else this would cause heavy current to be drawn through the electrical cct.
Hence, unlike normal dc electrolysis, the electrodes have an excess of stored charges, which can effectively be used before current is required to flow through the electrical cct. That is why a pulsed cct only draws a low current through the cct.
Here's an analogy:
Think of dc electrolysis as your house mains cold water supply running through to your kitchen tap. If you turn on the tap, that water mains pressure forces the water out. If however, you turn off the mains water supply at the stopcock, then no water flows when you turn on the tap.
Now think of pulsed electrolysis as your house hot water supply, where you have a storage (header) tank in the loft. Mains cold water is used to fill up the loft storage tank - like charging up a capacitor. Now again, you turn off your mains water at the stopcock, so no water can flow from in the cold water circuit. However, when you turn on your hot water tap and it will flow, and continue to flow until the storage tank empties, and during this time it requires no cold water supply, i.e, thanks to the storage tank, the hot water can flow for a time without drawing on the cold water.
Think of the voltage as the mains cold water pressure, the hot water storage tank as our 'water capacitor' and the hot water running with the mains cold water turned off as the exchange of charges between the ions and the electrodes.
Now, here is my thinking behind the signal pulses and components of the resonant charging cct.
Firstly, the main frequency pulse. We will want this to be quite high, as high frequency through an inductor will create a high resistance to current flow - hence the inductor acts as our natural current limiter. Note: I'm dismissing all ideas of resistive wire to restrict current, as this would simply waste power, whereas an inductor will store energy and release it back into the cct with only a very small loss of power.
The modulation of the high frequency pulses. Now I've heard mention that this is used to control the gas output in order to accelerate/decelerate a vehicle. However, I don't think we have that to worry about yet. So I believe that more likely the modulation of the high frequency by a lower frequency is what provides the 'off' time that allows the dielectric to reform.
I emphasise that this is only my personal theory of operation, but to date, as far as I can tell it's the only one that has been put forward that offers any kind of scientific explanation to go along with it.
Feel free to respond with your thoughts.
_________________
Farrah Day./quote]
Anyone following my other thread will see that using concentric tubes, my test cell is holding a charge well, in fact it's very hard to discharge it!
It would appear then that even 'unconditioned' ss tubes possess a good enough layer of chromium rich oxide to act as a dielectric. Yes it is leaky, but then all electrolytic capacitors are. That said, it takes hours and hours to fully discharge by itself.
Farrah Day,
This is my first post on any of the news groups after watching them for several months. I have developed a simple Meyers system and am currently only using brute force DC current at 6v and 12V. I have to start somewhere. Next will be to build the pulse circuites. (Forgive spelling mistakes, oddly I know when I make one but I can't always reslove the spelling errors).
On last conditional before I get to my point. I have avoided posting in the past because I'm get frustrated with the quasi-science babble. I will do my best to only post thoughts that have sources to back them up. I don't mind left field ideas but it does bother me people try to make things up just because (seemingly) they want to post something to look smart. I just ask for people to back up their thoughts through sources or stateing it is there opinion. Remember college or high school where you had to site your sources. Farrah Day I do think you have do well explaining yourself in the past. That, I hope, was my only rant
After following for months and with my own experiments I want to comment on Bob's point about impedence and the use of an electorlyte. The meyer's system produces a high impedence on the tubes. Bob's system creates a catalyst in the water. My simple understanding is we want to affect the water not the tubes, so it makes sense to inhibit electric activity to the tubes and increase electric activity to the water. By increasing the impedance on the tubes you 'force' the water to be charged more before the current can flow. I'm not sure (at least I say this part), but I think the electrolte would have the same effect. It creates a condition where the electricity is 'happier' to flow through the water before moving to the tubes.
My tubes are getting conditioned very nicely. Lots of white crap and it does seem to produce gas faster and quicker. I say seems because I don't have a fancy system to measure gas output yet. Baby Steps... Baby steps.
Water Gauss
Hi WG
I agree it best to start from known science in order that you have a good background understanding on which to base future experiments on.
There are many people who dont have a clue what they are talking about on these forums. People with no science knowledge whatsoever. People who read a few patents, think they know it all, and just spout or quote, as you so nicely put it, 'quasi-science babble', that neither they or anyone else understands. There's a lot of it about unfortunately.
QuoteBob's system creates a catalyst in the water. My simple understanding is we want to affect the water not the tubes, so it makes sense to inhibit electric activity to the tubes and increase electric activity to the water.
What is the catalyst... KOH? If so, why does he call it a catalyst and not simply the electrolyte?
This link is to Bob's electrolyser design. In one design he's using 101 plates and full wave rectified 150V across the lot. To me this seems to simply be very efficient dc pulsed standard electrolysis. It does not seem to compare to the Meyer set up at all.
http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf
Having had a good look through the electrolyser details on this link, I can find no supplied explanation of what is occuring or why. That is, there seems to be a lack of scientific evaluation in terms of the reactions that are actually taking place. Again I'm left with more questions than answers. Bob claims to be getting up to 1000% more gas produced than the maximum for standard electrolysis of equivalent power. If so this is quite phenomenal.
Bob details etching of the ss plates with light sand paper. Off-hand I can't remember the reason he states for doing this, but it's not to increase the capacitance of the cell, which it would do by many times, I would etch the surface of my ss tubes specifically to increase the surface area, and hence the capacitance, (by as much as 50 times!) Another thing Bob mentions is the formation of bubbles from out of the water between the cells rather than from on the plates. What I would like to know, is how you can actually confirm this with vigorous bubbling from plates spaced just 3mm apart.
Unfortunately Bob has not yet responded to a few questions I posed after his post, so I'm in the dark as to what he is using at present and how he thinks it works. I think his post posed more questions that it gave answers, and I'm not convinced by what he said.
My theories are certainly at odds with his, but then my wfc is not comparable if he is effectively just using 1.5 volts across each cell.
Perhaps he will be a little more forthcoming soon.
Farrah Day,
I miss spoke when I said catalyst. I should have said electrolyte. A catalyst typically helps in chemical reactions and is in integral to the chemical reaction. The electrolyte helps with the conductivity typically of a liquid, which is what is happening. It is purely conjecture but I bet Bob's cell will eventually build up a similar coating on his plates. The electrolyte would just help the process along until the oxidization builds up.
I've seen a pattern in Bob's posting.. He posts for a while then goes away. Give him some time he should respond, especially if you are 'kind'. Also in Reading past threads he is not inclined to respond to groups that bash or question him. I think he just does his thing, but he does seem helpful to those who are willing to take time to develop a report with him. I'm waiting to develop my cell more before I ask questions. I am greatfull for the postings Bob does provide and that he has not dropped out all togeather like some have.
There is enough info in past postings for me to work on first. Bob and Ravi have been clear that if you follow the D14.pdf AND also make the supplemental changes (using the coil thingy I'm still trying to understand, and adding a capacitor somewhere I forgot) you will get the same results. For me I must first do myself and then I can ask questions. Often my questions are answered just when I do first.
I am unqualified to compare electronic designs between Bob and Meyer's. So rather than pretend I know or have a legitimate knowledge, I'll bow out at this time. Give me some time and then I can weigh in with a credible voice.
I hope to be of better help in the future to you and the group. Right now I'm going to go work on my cell.
And now because I think it is funny I'm going to say some CFCT (Crazy Fuel Cell Talk). "If you take the elastic condition of the NFN plate and put it under a pyramid you can produce 30% H 70%O and 20%N, but only if your positive thought waves are in-line with the cell".
Water Gauss
WG
Bob actually talks about a catalyst, but he also talks about a 'catalytic layer'. There's no other way for me to put this, but I think those terms he uses are incorrect and confusing.
The oxide layer is not catalytic, it does not initiate the reaction. If anything the KOH that introduces ions into the water will initiate more reaction so would be better termed as the catalyst, but to my mind both terms are misleading in this context.
Bob, I know can be a bit touchy if you approach him the wrong way, and you might have noticed that tact and diplomacy are not my strong points, but his post is too vague for my liking. I feel that like Meyer he sometimes uses jargon that is meaningless, as in the 'natural barrier voltage of water'... I mean, what the hell is that... has anyone ever heard that term used before???
I don't intentionally put anyone down unless it is clear that they are talking utter nonsense and bullshitting, that said, I get very frustrated when people like Bob, who are obviously looked up to, post and then just disappear without answering any questions that have been asked. Its almost as if they don't have to justify themselves... which I think is arrogant and wrong. I don't trust Bob, or anyone that tells you they know what is happening, but then can't be bothered to back up their claim with a little science.
There you go, you've got me ranting again!
A couple things,
I also have noticed that my cell holds a charge after it has been taken out of the water. I t.
ested the new meter on many other things to see if maybe it was the meter that was the issue. Nope when I went back to the cell I got about 1/2 a volt. I could only sometimes short it out, depending on how I was attempting to short out the cell.
Back to catalyst... Well I can not disagree with Bob about the layer possiblty being a catalyst. Again refering to a catalitic converter on a car. The converter is basically filled with small ball bearings covered with gold and platiunum or a honey comb structure. It is why the catalyictic converters are so expensive. The Gold and Platiunm cause the Nitrogen of the NOx gas to find a new friend in the presious metals. If I remember correctly it only works at high temp because the electrons of the precious metals have to jump to the next outer electron shell to have enough pull on the Nitrogen. Anyway the Oxygen takes it really personally Nitrogen found a new friend throws a fit and leaves with its already paired O buddy. (It is some serious high school drama in the gasious world.) Oxygen now having left leaves Nitrogen feeling really sad and since Gold and platiunum really are loners and normally don't do with in co-dependant chemical relationships, Nitrogen finds a true friend in another Nitrogen, they pair up and drift off in a stable relationship.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter2.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
Anyway for us and for 316 stainless-steel, well read this first..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel
I think the chromium(III) oxide for may do something simiular with H20 as the gold and platimum do in the CC for NOx. It might bond with the Oxygen, free the the hydrogen pair and regroup with another Oxygen. Wouldn't bet my jepordy daily double on this idea, but it is something to think about.
Ok off to bed
Water Gauss
I found this article talking about the use of KOH and why our cells are acting like batteries after the current has been removed.
http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/h2homesystem.pdf
Remember with any source of information, it is only as good as it's sources. This seems to be credible.
Water Gauss
WG
If you take a look at my other thread you'll see that I now realise why I have the voltage sitting there after the power is switched off. The voltage and current during discharge can do work, as I popped a LED across my test cell and this illuminated for quite some time before the voltage dropped too far.
Today I'm starting to condition my large test cell.
My test cell is now starting to get the white compound build up on the cathodes.
Originally I had assumed that the protective oxide layer on the ss was the source of the dielectric, but it would appear that it is the cathode that is creating the dielectric, not the anode. We know from Ravi's tests that the white coating is an insulator, but as it's on the cathode which is oxygen defficient during electrolysis, it surely can't be an oxide.
Clearly the protective oxide layer on the ss cathode is removed, allowing corrosion of the metal beneath, but what is it that we then produce. What reaction is taking place?
It must be a reduction reaction, but what exactly is reacting? Any chemist out there know, or want to hazard an educated guess as to what this white coating is?
Initially I'd compared our wfc to a 'wet electrolytic capacitor', but know I see that this is not a correct analogy, in that it is the anode that has the dielectric oxide layer in a 'wet electrolytic capacitor', not the cathode. That said, current is not designed to flow through a wet electrolytic capacitor as in our wfcs, and apart from inherent leakage current, only does so in the case of dielectric breakdown.
Time to regroup and rethink things then.
Here's something interesting that I found.
I believe this emphasises the conditioning process our wfc's need to go through before they become efficient capacitors. It also confirms Ravi's description of the time-consuming process
QuoteElectrolytic: Electrolytic caps are named for the chemicals that cause the dielectric to exist. Electrolytic caps have plates wound from a long, thin strip of aluminum foil. The dielectric is a thin (several atoms thick) coating of aluminum oxide (an excellent insulator). The aluminum oxide is formed by a chemical reaction between the electrolyte and the aluminum, in the presence of an electric field. This formed dielectric gives the capacitors some unique advantages and disadvantages. Electrolytic caps have very large capacitances per unit space, since the dielectric is so thin. The dielectric can tailored to allow voltages up to about 450 VDC, the upper limit for electrolytic caps. The disadvantages of the electrolytic come from the electrolyte, and how the dielectric is formed. The electrolyte will dry up in time, causing the capacitors to gradually decrease in capacitance. Pushing the capacitor beyond its ratings (either voltage, polarity, or ripple current) will increase the pressure in the cap until it either vents (and loses electrolyte) or explodes. The other problem is that if the electrolytic cap is not used for a long time, the dielectric becomes thinner, decreasing the voltage it can withstand. The dielectric needs an electric field (charge) in order to maintain its strength.
Electrolytics that have been unused (either in storage or in unused equipment) can have their dielectric layers restored by slowly applying increasing levels of DC voltage. The procedure can take days. Electrolytics suffer from accelerated aging at elevated temperatures. A rule of thumb is that their life is cut in half for each 10 degree Celsius rise above ambient (25C). For all these reasons, electrolytics have a limited life and the user may expect to replace them at some time in the future. Excess hum on a power supply, unstable rolling picture on a monitor are often signs of an electrolytic nearing the end of its useful life. Electrolytic capacitors have a substantial amount of leakage and Dielectric Absorption. This can be a problem in timing circuits, and often limits their use. Some designs (like the 555 timer) minimize these faults by operating the capacitor at voltages where this is less of a problem. The temperature stability of electrolytics is poor and seldom specified
Hi Farrah Day,
First of all I's like to say I'm following your tests with great interest. I like the way you aproach things, scientific but with an open mind. I think I'm gonna pick up again where i left off a while ago (lack of time). I've got most of it ready to follow you in your tests. I've got my tubes ready (20mm/25mm 1mm spacing). I have 6 tubes of 20 cm, SS 316L. The pulser as per D14 is build but still needs testing.
What I'd like to know from you is how you have assembled the tubes in the acrylic tube. I have had them in there already but there is hardly any space left to prevent shorting when I was using jubilee clips (hose clamps). What is your view on this? I have 110 mm acrylic tube. I'd like to have a setup which is easy to disassemble, so I can change the tubes or inspect them.
Therefore I'm debating to use another type of container for the tubes. Maybe some sort of square container with more space.
How are you going about this?
Regards Robert
One idea leads to another and...
First I thought of anodizing aluminium and then I ended up with this:
http://www.midwesternanodizing.com/stainlesspassivate.html
With Dogs' current and promising work on the electronics side of the wfc subject, and in light of the fact that it again appears that conditioning maybe crucial to success I thought I'd bring this thread back up.
I'm going to try to speed up the conditioning of my electrodes by getting hold of some calcium carbonate to add to my tap water.
2 litres of tap water with a flat teaspoon of calcium carbonate stirred in.
Test cell left running in this electrolyte for 4 hours at 0.5 amp. Test cell removed, let dry out and then repeated.
Picture below then shows the amount of white coating (now assumed to be calcium hydroxide) that was created after just 8 hours at 0.5 amp dc.