Hi all
Well here is my half baked idea. My English is not very good, so I hope that you all will understand the principle of how it works.
The idea is a combination of other technologies, that were jet discussed here in this forum.
1. Hydrogen production
2. ordinary water turbine-generator
3. combustion-engine with mechanical-heat-coupling OR hydrogen-oxygen fuelcell
Function:
Let us say we make hydrogen and oxygen via electrolysis in 100 meter depth or deeper. So we have to count with 100% electricity IN. As long as I know the producing of hydrogen via electrolysis has a COP of 0,8 in best case.
Now the hydrogen will raise through a pipe (the oxygen needs an own pipe) 100 meter to the top, because of its lightweight, and will be feed into a combustion engine. (). Through mechanical-heat-coupling this will us produce by a COP of 0,8 (too) heat and electricity (energy OUT).
I choose a combustion engine, because igniting the hydrogen will automatically suck the oxygen through the other pipe.
I don`t know if a hydrogen fuel cell will do the same.
Please keep now in mind, that we have a total loss from 40% from our 100% IN.
Now we take the exhaust from the engine, a.k.a. water, collect it in a tank and conduct it through a pipe 100 meter down to operate a water turbine with a generator to get electricity.
Remember 40% losses ??. BUT we have 100% of the water ?upstairs?.
100% water upstairs means 100% energy stored in the water.
Actually I don?t know the losses from a water-turbine-generator combination. But I guess that it could be around 25% and 35%. So assume 60% energy OUT
The last step to close the circle will be to conduct the water to the electrolysis-tank.
In sum we will have 60% of energy from our engine (mechanical-heat-coupling) and
round about 60% from our turbine, total of 120%.
Well this is half baked idea. I will try to draw a picture of that.
Please correct me if I am wrong with my maths, or better do your own maths and post the results.
I will be waiting for feedback.
Have a nice weekend.
2Tiger
This is an interesting concept. I don't know a lot about electrolysis but I have heard that if you split water into hydrogen and oxygen and run it through an internal combustion motor, the water that results can't be used to split again. I have no idea why this is. Your idea of the water turbine is interesting and maybe I misunderstand that you don't intend to re-use the water after the turbine for fuel for the engine again.
Bill
Hi Pirate
Thanks for your reply.
No you understood it well. My intention was to reuse the water.
As long as I know, you can reuse the water if you burnt it in a closed enviroment. The only thing is, that it must be pure and clean water (destilled).
But I may be wrong. Perhaps someone here in the forum has better knowledge in this area.
kr
2Tiger
Hi 2Tiger,
Why would the hydrogen raise through the pipe by itself?
Tinu
@tinu
Because of this: Source => Wikipedia
Hydrogen.....With an atomic mass of 1.00794 g/mol, hydrogen is the lightest element.
And if I am wrong, and it wouldn?t raise, we have a 4 stroke combustion engine.
One of the strokes sucks the combustion into the cylinder capacity. The energy therefore is allready
considered in the losses of a combustion engine.
So once started, the engine would help to lift(suck) the hydrogen out of the pipe.
The same will happen to the oxigen.
by
2Tiger
Ever took a mountain trip with your car? Noticed how difficult is for the engine working at high altitude and low pressure? The engine is designed to work at around 1 atmospheric pressure and the additional energy is not taken into consideration.
Hydrogen is the lightest gas indeed, but it does not know it. It does also not know that it?s air or something else around the pipe. Eventually the pipe itself will float and rise (if light enough) but not the gas inside it.
My point is that no matter if you carry up gases, liquids or solids, the energy spent in doing that is m*g*h. The same amount of energy you may recover by reversing the sense, if no losses.
Tinu
@Tinu
Quote
Ever took a mountain trip with your car? Noticed how difficult is for the engine working at high altitude and low pressure? The engine is designed to work at around 1 atmospheric pressure and the additional energy is not taken into consideration.
No I didn?t. But the reason why the the engine has problems is, because the athmospheric low pressure air contains less oxigen in the same amount of volume and this is of cause not good for the mixture (air-combustion) the engine needs to run properly.
Quote
Hydrogen is the lightest gas indeed, but it does not know it. It does also not know that it?s air or something else around the pipe. Eventually the pipe itself will float and rise (if light enough) but not the gas inside it.
The hydrogen does not know that? Then why do you think that eventually the pipe (if light enough) will know this?
One real example for this is the famous zeppelin Hindenburg. It "floated" in the air with a gas mixture inside and one of the gases in this mixture was hydrogen.
Assume that the pipe is open on top. The hydrogen will rise in the pipe, because air (heavier than hydrogen) will "fall" in the pipe and displace the hydrogen to the top.
Other example - Fill some oil and water in a glass and you will see, that the oil will float an the surface.
Indeed the oil will not know why it is swimming on the surface, but it does it anyhow.
Does this causes any losses in the system? No - it is a "natural" reaction between two elements, though physically explained.
kr
2Tiger
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Hindenburg did not rise up into the air as much as it was pushed up by being displaced by the heavier air surrounding it. Same result, different explanation.
Bill
Same result with oil, which is pushed up by the water?
Unfortunately hydrogen and air mix very well. Once the pipe is open, hydrogen is pushed up indeed, but it dilutes very quickly.
Tinu
Hi all
I think now it?s time for a draft.
There you can see, that the oxigen and hydrogen have particular pipes to the combustion engine.
The pipe(s) are of course close. Otherwise the hydrogen will not burn "clean".
O.K. now we need some energy to bring the to elements to the top.
Assume now for the hydrogen a pipe with a cross section area of 10 cm and a height of 100m, then you have an inside volume
of 0,7853 m^3 X with a massdensity of 0,0899 kg/m^3 you will get 0,070 kg for the hydrogen. To lift this 100m you will need 0,69 Nm .
For the oxigen, witch has half of that volume and a mass density of 1,429 kg/m^3 => 0,561 kg, you will need 5,5 Nm to lift this amount 100m.
The total amount of energy needed to lift both elements 100m through the pipe will be round about 6 Nm.
But as I stated before, this energy is already considered in the losses of the combustion engine.
I am sure, that an ordinary carburator needs more than 6 Nm to suck fluids like gasoline or diesel through thin needle-valves, or even the gasoline pump sucking the fluids out af a tank.
I hope that this system becomes more comprehensible.
kr
2Tiger
A most interesting idea.
It is true that the hydrogen gas produced from the electrolysis of water could be made to rise, but perhaps you would need something like a conveyor belt of balloons (!) to get the hydrogen gas to rise and when it got there you would need to apply energy to compress the gases before combustion would occur. then again, the belt might output energy itself too.
It all sounds very Rube Goldberg but it might work too.
You never know until you try it.
Hi all
Well, I have no doubts that the hydrogen and the oxigen will rise, because...
1. ...it will be sucked by the carburator of the combustion engine
2. ...applying a small amount of energy 6Nm (if necessary)
3. or pressure created by the elektrolysis
@magnusx
This is not a Rube Goldberg thing in no way! This kind of system allready exist. One of these is i.e. the combustion angine with
power heat coupling witch I choose for this idea.
You burne fuel in an engine to drive a generator to produce electricity. Additionally you "reuse" the losses of the engine (heat) with a
heatpump to warm up water.
In this half backed idea, I use electrolysis to "lift" the water and as byproduct I get hydrogen.
All the other components allready exist (power-heat coupling, water turbine, generator).
bye
2Tiger
Hi all
The main question I have is, is it possible to reuse the water after electrolysing and burning in order to re-electrolyse it again?
The other question is, where are the losses in the water-electrolysis? Maybe heat?
I would be greatful to hear any answers.
Thanks
2Tiger
I would let the oxygen escape in to the air and use air from out side because you will need more air then fuel to run a combustion motor. The exhaust then could be recycled back to the reservoir but you would still need to add to the reservoir to make up for the evaporation process that will take place.
The hydrogen will definatly rise thrugh the pipe,it won't mix with the water it's made from,try suspending water over air.In acually generating hydrogen will probably produce pressure in the pipe,as well as the ox pipe.The trick will be producing enough @700 cfm for a bb chevy per say.And also metering enough ox to have cumbustion.Lets not forget an all stainless motor to inhibet corrosion.Small obsticals sure, practical possibly, give it a whirl on a small scale model maybe 1/6th.