Have you all discovered that if you have two very long magnets, where you have a long north and south pole, there is almost no repulsion or attraction between them if you cross them like an "X" ?
What if it was possible to make a device that made them approach each other in that position (Remember almost no repulsion), and gradually slide both magnets out 90 degrees from each other so they at the end shaped a "<" or "V". Say that equal poles are facing each other. The idea is that the magnets are not meeting much repulsion in X configuration, and when the magnets are 1cm apart the direction of one magnet is moving along the other magnet making a "T", but as the magnets glides apart in 90 degrees, there is much repulsion. Well, this became complicated...
Do this make any hope to you guys?
Br.
Vidar
Hi Vidar,
Yes, what you describe makes sense but the mechanical setup to achieve the 90 degree turn may become cumbersome...
At another thread pese referred to some patent collection and I found patent US2976478 where a variable permeabilty magnetic circuit is built using two long rod magnets and utilizing just their center (Bloch wall) where repel/attract forces very weak indeed, (I mean Fig.5). Though you have not meant such setup above, I still see your thoughts good to do about something at the center of long magnets and worth elaborating on it further. A link to the patent: http://www.google.com/patents?id=4pBZAAAAEBAJ&dq=2976478
rgds
Gyula
Quote from: Low-Q on October 15, 2007, 10:08:09 AM
Have you all discovered that if you have two very long magnets, where you have a long north and south pole, there is almost no repulsion or attraction between them if you cross them like an "X" ?
What if it was possible to make a device that made them approach each other in that position (Remember almost no repulsion), and gradually slide both magnets out 90 degrees from each other so they at the end shaped a "<" or "V". Say that equal poles are facing each other. The idea is that the magnets are not meeting much repulsion in X configuration, and when the magnets are 1cm apart the direction of one magnet is moving along the other magnet making a "T", but as the magnets glides apart in 90 degrees, there is much repulsion. Well, this became complicated...
Do this make any hope to you guys?
Br.
Vidar
I also discovered the same thing about a year ago, but I never posted the finding on here because I thought that everybody on here already knew about it.
Now that you have shone some light on the subject, maybe new ideas might come to light. 8)
I have two long bar magnets in my hands right now, with their north and south poles marked, and they always have attraction no matter how I bring them together.
But the attraction does seem a little weaker when I do it the way you described. I think this is worth some experimenting.
My long neo-magnets are 70mm x 5mm x 5mm polarized in the short axis, not along the length of them. Even two equal poles facing, will attract eachother if they come close enough - placed 90 degrees.
This means one thing:
Magnetic lines which is facing each other directly like this " -> <- " or like this " <- <- " does not repel or attract eachother. To achieve most repel or attraction the lines must face each other in parallell like this " = " or " || ". In a very long magnet which is polarized in the short axis, the magnetic lines in the middle is allmost leaving the magnet in 90 degrees. Therefor there is very weak forces between the magnets right there - where the magnetic lines are also least densed. The goal must be how to utilize these properties to make a permanent magnet motor. I do not have the solution, but maybe some ideas will come up soon.
Br.
Vidar
Also see some interesting data and experiments from a patent in this thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3327.0
The patent data shows a simple way to bring two magnets together, 1 Joule of work to bring them together, 4 Joules of work when they push apart, I just can't think of any way to make this a cycle.
Quote from: ken_nyus on October 23, 2007, 10:16:20 AM
Also see some interesting data and experiments from a patent in this thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3327.0
The patent data shows a simple way to bring two magnets together, 1 Joule of work to bring them together, 4 Joules of work when they push apart, I just can't think of any way to make this a cycle.
yes. I have discovered the same. Allmost no force to push them together, but when I bring them out of balance, the free magnet is pushed away very rapidly - and very far. I will post a video showing this in a short while...
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on October 23, 2007, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: ken_nyus on October 23, 2007, 10:16:20 AM
Also see some interesting data and experiments from a patent in this thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3327.0
The patent data shows a simple way to bring two magnets together, 1 Joule of work to bring them together, 4 Joules of work when they push apart, I just can't think of any way to make this a cycle.
yes. I have discovered the same. Allmost no force to push them together, but when I bring them out of balance, the free magnet is pushed away very rapidly - and very far. I will post a video showing this in a short while...
Vidar
Here is the video. You must concider there is a handheld magnet in this test. I have no clue if this will work in a fully mechanical setup with no human influence. All I know is that I use very little force to move the hand held magnet (Right click and choose save it (almost 10Mb)):
http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/PA230067.AVI (http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/PA230067.AVI)
Hi Vidar,
Thanks for the video, very interesting. Would you tell when the bottom magnet is just kicking out do you feel the reaction force on the upper magnet in your hand? I think here the action-reaction law, usually you should feel a backward push of almost a similar strength on the upper magnet like the force the bottom magnet accelerates with.
One more question: after the approach of the upper magnet from above in the same way you showed, you start moving the upper magnet in the opposite direction (i.e. away from you), then the bottom magnet is kicking out also in the opposite direction (i.e. towards you)?
Thanks,
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on October 23, 2007, 04:52:17 PM
Hi Vidar,
Thanks for the video, very interesting. Would you tell when the bottom magnet is just kicking out do you feel the reaction force on the upper magnet in your hand? I think here the action-reaction law, usually you should feel a backward push of almost a similar strength on the upper magnet like the force the bottom magnet accelerates with.
One more question: after the approach of the upper magnet from above in the same way you showed, you start moving the upper magnet in the opposite direction (i.e. away from you), then the bottom magnet is kicking out also in the opposite direction (i.e. towards you)?
Thanks,
Gyula
Hi,
I can make a video showing all posibilities. Towards me, away from me and this from the side. Give me a few minutes, and I'll post a video.
Br.
Vidar
Here is 4 videos taken in four different angles, in four different directions. To answer the question about what forces I feel: I feel a force pushing the magnet away. When I hold both magnets in my hand, I can only verify that there is only pushing force, with a small attraction force, sticky point, right after the hand held magnet has leaved the pushed magnet. This sticky point is however much weaker than the pushing forces - as the video confirms, by actually pushing the magnet far away.
http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/left2right.avi (http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/left2right.avi)
http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/right2left.avi (http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/right2left.avi)
http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/away-from-me.avi (http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/away-from-me.avi)
http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/towards-me.avi (http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/towardes-me.avi)
This picture shows that two ecual poles attract each other in this position, but only when they come close enough:
http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/PA240082.JPG (http://www.lyd-interior.no/images/videos/PA240082.JPG)
Vidar
Hi Vidar,
Thank you for the videos, very kind of you, I was mainly interested in how big the repel back force on the upper magnet (you hold in hand) is from the bottom magnet when kicking out.
You mentioned you using 70mm x 5mm x 5mm Neo magnets that are polarised across the 5mm thickness, right? (Though the magnets you show in the picture/videos seem of rectangular cross sections (not a 5 x 5 square cross section but say 5 x 3) but I do not think this difference is important .)
I noticed in the videos that the bottom magnet's end which faces the upper magnet gets elevated in the air just after the kick out effect starts. This is due to attraction of the end of the bottom magnet to the middle part of the upper magnet during the kick out, right?
Regards
Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on October 25, 2007, 08:42:12 AM
Hi Vidar,
Thank you for the videos, very kind of you, I was mainly interested in how big the repel back force on the upper magnet (you hold in hand) is from the bottom magnet when kicking out.
You mentioned you using 70mm x 5mm x 5mm Neo magnets that are polarised across the 5mm thickness, right? (Though the magnets you show in the picture/videos seem of rectangular cross sections (not a 5 x 5 square cross section but say 5 x 3) but I do not think this difference is important .)
I noticed in the videos that the bottom magnet's end which faces the upper magnet gets elevated in the air just after the kick out effect starts. This is due to attraction of the end of the bottom magnet to the middle part of the upper magnet during the kick out, right?
Regards
Gyula
Yes, its right. I have many 2,5 x 5 x 70mm magnets - among many other 5 x 5 x 70, but the 2,5 x 5 x 70mm ones are easier to control.
When the magnets are facing equal polarity, the kick-off will eventually lift up the bottom magnet. The reason is that these magnets would stick together placed side by side. Did you by the way got the ansver to you question regarding the repel back force in my hand? Or do you need a more precise explanation?
Here is a picture of some of my assortments. All neos taken from broken ribbon tweeters I have had.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lyd-interior.no%2Fimages%2Fneos.jpg&hash=b2c8712be05e51606053d5f99e71477c46c46338)
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on October 26, 2007, 06:10:13 PM
Did you by the way got the ansver to you question regarding the repel back force in my hand? Or do you need a more precise explanation?
Hi Vidar,
Yes, I think you answered it, you felt the force pushing the bottom magnet away; it is obvious this pushing force you felt is more or less equal to the force with which the bottom magnet kicks out.
Nice collection of block magnets!
rgds, Gyula