so heres my idea.
we take a 40-50hp gas effiecient engine and hook up maybe 6 or more (30 volt)alternators to the engine and then you hook them up in series to an AC electric motor that is connected to the tranmission of the car.(note the 40-50hp motor is not hooked up to the transmission)
would this be enough to power a 1200 pound Car? :-\
I remember something similar to this idea that was posted way back when I was a freshman in college and was working a part time job in the nuclear lab at Atlantic Richfield.(1984 or thereabouts). Only back then they were talking about using only a 5 hp lawnmower engine to power a generator that would charge a bank of batteries in an electric car. So you would have the 5 hp gas engine going at a constant ideal speed and you would drive using the electric motor at whatever speed you desired.
I think it was published in Popular Science or Popular Mechanics or maybe Discover Magazine. Don't remember which. Touted as a "hybrid vehicle". Gas was a great deal cheaper back then, LOL!!! That's probably why it died.
Thought it was a great idea back then, but never saw it materialize.
G'day Dave and all,
I remember these designs, there were a spate of them all around the same central idea.
The main problem with this type of arrangement, if I remember correctly, was the enormous weight such a car had to carry around using the standard lead-acid batteries of the time. In order to get any range and performance at all you had to have quite a few of them, which then required a larger motor which then required a bigger generator, which then required more batteries........ ad infinitum. It never really worked with anything bigger than a golf cart.
Today with advances in battery technology and improved efficiency of internal combustion engines it may well be worth having a second look at this.
Hans von Lieven
I was kinda thinking that this type of design wouldn't need any batteries. So the alternators feed directly to the Electric motor.(assuming their would be some kind of potentiometer to lower or increase voltage in between them.)
G'day crash,
If you do that you lose the advantage of the design. By having the generator operate at a constant speed and torque you can optimise fuel consumption. Acceleration and deceleration costs disproportionately more fuel. That is the whole idea. Also during periods when the vehicle is at a standstill the generator can still provide an energy reserve to the batteries. This means a smaller generator than would otherwise be required.
Hans von Lieven
Hi Hans,
I never really followed up on what happened to that area of research. (hybrids) I remember when I first heard that the big American car companies were putting out hybrids, the first picture that came to my mind was the lawnmower engine design. Then I saw they all had regular automotive engines and I just lost interest.
I agree though, you do need the battery bank to smooth out the running of the engine. With the advances in battery technology since the early 1980's I am sure (no doubt) that it is now feasible to design a hybrid that does use a small lawnmower type engine. Just leave it running until the battery bank is fully charged, then have it automatically stop. Not too difficult. That would be an answer to long distance for an electric car.
Looks like a good area for somebody who has the mechanical skills to tinker with it.
Wow, you really brought back my old college day memories. Good ones though. :)
Hi, Im new. This is a very interesting forum. I believe what you are talking about may be what this GM concept is trying to do.. http://www.clickondetroit.com/autoshow/10690055/detail.html
I have been saying this for years. This is exactly the way diesel locomotives work. The engine drives a generator which actually powers the train. Considering the way we all use motor vehicles, this makes much more sense. The advent of regenerative braking only adds to the mix. I had always envisioned a small motor, not unlike a motorhome generator motor, running at a constant, and efficient rpm and charging the batteries only when needed. This would not be perfect but, I believe it would increase the range and efficiency of any electric car out there. Now GM has come up with the same idea. For most driving, the gas motor would not come on all that much and, you could either recharge it on the grid, or by pouring more gas into the little engine. This technology has been around for years, I didn't invent it. If it has worked for trains for this long, why are we so slow to adapt it to the motor vehicle?
Bill
Hey Guys, A real Newby here!
Came across this thread and the subject reminded me of an article from Mother Earth News way back in July/August 1979
the web page is http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative-Energy/1979-07-01/An-Amazing-75-MPG-Hybrid-Electic-Car.aspx
Hope this helps out
if you generate hydrogen from from water and run this generator with hydrogen you wont need gas.....what a gas
TTFN
wow that would REALLy be interesting if anything like this could be done
think if i could rip out my 2,5 liter volvo engine and have a eletric enginge instead *dreaming*..the wheigt of the engine is gone and perhaps have a batterypack on the same weight perhaps
hmm..a "kit" with parts to use to use would be sold all over the world
i have been lying awake about this last night...COLUD this be a good idea?
well i am woundering about the COST..i mean..a eletric engine that can produce about 150-200 horsepower, and a batterypack (and the size of that??) and a generator for that...i have NO clue what so ever what this could cost to get...anyone knows? and the (lithion?) batterypack..how big could it be..if its to big i wont fit into a car
rip out the engine and gearbox of an car...and have the eletric engine in there? and perhaps the batterypack?
@Kallstrom 74:
Others can correct me on this if I am wrong but, I remember doing some research on electric vehicle conversions and the HP of an electric motor does not have to be anywhere near the HP of the engine it replaces. I recall a full size van conversion to electric that ran just fine with a 50 hp electric motor. And, an electric motor does not require a transmission, more weight savings.
Bill
Your right Bill,
An electric motor can develop mucho torque for its size. We have small electric mixers in the lab that would rip your hand off if you're not careful. (well, maybe not ALL the way off, but it would sure do some damage.). I know when I'm doing high torque dispersions these babies can crank out the power. It's downright scary!! I'm always worried about the possibility of getting a sleeve or gloved hand caught. (shuddering at the thought)!
In the world of boating, the usual rule of thumb when replacing is 1hp electric = 3hp gas.
I run a 1hp electric inboard engine in my 16ft, 2400lb sailboat.
The other rule of thumb is you can think of the torque curve of an electric engine as flat, whereas in a gas engine you have to get somewhere near the top of the rpm range to get top torque. In an electric the full torque is available from 1 to max rpm.
.
hi all
i did a quick search on DIY electric car conversion forums and found a few
http://tinyurl.com/27mv3g gets you to the DIY Electric Car Forums > EV Conversions
and http://tinyurl.com/35f8a8 to the Wikibooks Electric vehicle conversion/Resources page
torque comes in full in the low rpm range while hp comes in full in the high rpm range in a curve.
yes the electric motor ( not engine ) comes in full on from zero to max rpm what ever that would be
i once thought about converting my 89 S10 to electric, it was going to have a fifty horse motor
with two 12 volt by 12 battery packs and have a 5500 watt gen set to charge it when needed for
long trips ( thats two 144 volt packs that would be used one pack at a time, while using one pack the other would be charged ) anyway, that was my dream. tell me yours.
TTFN
My dream, and I have had this thought for years, is to place a small gas engine, not unlike a motorhome generator, in the trunk of an electric car. the engine runs at a constant rpm when the switch is thrown by the batteries being too low. It would not be enough to fully run the motor at highway speeds....but, it would charge the bats while stopped at a light, a drive-thru, or parked at work. This is the way diesel/electric trains have worked for years...not my original idea.
The hybrids available today to me are a joke. Too expensive and the mileage is worse than we have achieved 20 years ago, and the bats have to be replaced after 3 years or so at about $3,000 plus. The ONLY good thing about the hybrids is the regenerative braking system, this is very useful to recapture some of the energy that we used to accelerate while stopping.
Think about a small gas motor running a generator on demand in the trunk. suddenly, the range for your electric vehicle goes from 75 miles to well over 300. Yes you might have to fill up the 5 gallon tank every so often but....this is my dream. Any others???
Bill
thanx for the replys...so the eletric engine can be smaller then..great news :) about 50 to 60 ph eletric then!?
i was looking at the link that h20mojo had on his post..and there they used a starter engine from a airplane...where can i find that kind of a moter (or any good motor)?
and i was thinking about the lawnmover motor...is there any small fuel efficient motor? diesel perhaps? or a wankelmotor (less wearing?) a lawnmower i think is NOT designed to be economic? ;)
just a perhaps stupid question!? the transmission. will the car just run on the eletric motor without the transmission? just bolt the engine to the PROPSHAFT?
in the link they still used the transmission
i wish that i could build this kind of car... :)
Since the torque of the electric motor is constant from 0-max. rpm, no transmission is required. I have seen some conversions where they leave the transmission in but, I believe that this was done because it was easier to use the transaxle assembly than it would have been to design from scratch another way to get the power to the axles. Myself, I would not use the trans, even more weight gone and that helps quite a bit. Just my thoughts from what I have read.
Bill
okey..so how can i figure out the speed of the car then? is that determined from the rpm? so it wont top about 60km/h or anything..here in sweden we have 120km/h at the highway
I was thinking about that today while driving around. I think I would remove everything and mount two bearings that would align with the axles and create a shaft to connect them. May have to have some clutch device to compensate for the different speeds of the wheels while turning. From this shaft, you can mount the motor and drive the shaft with a wide ribbed belt on a grooved pulley like a timing belt set up. I guess you would have to calculate the ratio for the desired speed base on the rpm of the motor used. Or, I guess one could mount two motors, smaller ones, for each of the drive axles in a direct drive configuration. Then you would have to calculate the diameter of the tire and the rpm of the motor to see what speed you would get.
I have not tried any of this. I am sure there are many people who have done conversions and would either sell you the plans/or parts required. With some research, I think one could figure it out on their own though. To me, if someone else, or a bunch of people, have already done the experimentation, there is no sense in rediscovering what they have found. It should not be that hard which is why I am so very not impressed with the hybrids offered by the big car makers. Not a giant leap forward in my opinon, but several steps back.
Bill
well thats sounds like much difficult and a long work..cant the cars transmission be used like the one on "mother earth news" perhaps?
yes i agree with you, the car manufacters dont wanna change their concept of a car...i think that it would be in their interest to make things like this..much more that that is done now
Quote from: kallstrom_74 on October 23, 2007, 01:39:25 PM
well thats sounds like much difficult and a long work..cant the cars transmission be used like the one on "mother earth news" perhaps?
yes i agree with you, the car manufacters dont wanna change their concept of a car...i think that it would be in their interest to make things like this..much more that that is done now
Use the "finish" GASOLIN ELECTRIC JAPANESE HYPRID CARS
(i belive also from Opel,Germany , and let run it on Propan/Butan.
(Any Gasoline Motror will work on GAS)
www.pese.cjb.net
What I have been messing with is using electrolysis separated water to power a small 5hp motor to turn a generator and use the exhaust (water) to return as fuel for the motor. Use the motor to power a 5kw generator to charge a few 12v batteries (small ones for the electrolysis) and a large capacitor bank which is significantly lighter than a battery bank (at less range). It would work, but I really think there is energy to be found elsewhere besides a generator...
Here's a dream on this issue:
http://www.teslamotors.com/
Near your home and short commutes you just plug it in overnight to recharge.
Small 5hp powered generator in the trunk (or somewhere) that runs until the batteries are charged.
Probably get 200+ mpg on gasoline for long trips; and you will look SHARP ;D riding in it too!!!
Perfect for us nearly 50 year old males. lol. :D
hey guys I'm back
if your interested, Mother Earth News latest mag in the book shelf section has a couple of interesting books, one called "Convert It" which is a hands on guide to convert a gas powered car into a electric car, and the other is "HYBRID CAR BLUEPRINTS", i think is based on the July 79 article.
like i said before, my dream is to build one powered by two 144 volt packs, but using one at a time, when one is being used the other is being charged by a small 5 kw gen set fueled by hydrogen on demand system so that i dont use any gas, that could go maybe, well how far could go on a gallon of water?
Thats my dream, but right now I,m studing on how to make the HOD system,
TTFN
This car seems to be about as good as it gets up til now.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060724.006/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
Jason
wow thats a mini I would love to have..but sadly i need a bif family van! :(
okey..lets se some things here...the mini have a small fossile fuel engine that produces 15kw at constant rate.. to a "super" generator? is this what we could need if we wanna convert our cars perhaps
okey..one motor and a generator..and some software that controlls all the power...where can we look for this kind of small engines
Quote from: Jason on October 25, 2007, 11:26:44 AM
This car seems to be about as good as it gets up til now.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060724.006/pml-builds-640hp-electric-mini
Jason
Here is the link to the PML website. Check out the "Hy-Pa Drive"
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/
i was looking in a swedish site called "nyteknik.se" and found an aricle (http://www.nyteknik.se/art/53304) that toyota has in secret tried out lituim-jon batteies in their cars...in the model VITZ (yaris)
and that in japan you could get a hybridkit for that model for about 5500 sek ( 856 usd).
..wow..anyone knows anything about this??
i think about this all the time...
i cant figure out how to calculate any of this..if i would have a eletric engine that have about 170 tp 200 hp...(dont know what kind) how many batteries would be needed? 4, 10 or how many?.AND..is there any generator that could load the batteries? how many Kw hould it have to produce?
can anyone please tell me anything about this..i will just go crazy about this
Swap the batteries for ultra caps and the idea would be even better
please explain that! do you recharge the caps faster or what?
Well yeah thats one advantage. Regen braking could try to charge faster than some batteries would like. Also fast aceleration will over stress batteries. The main advantage is the virtualy infinate number of charge/recharge cyles with caps. If they can make them as power dense and as cheaply as equivilent batteries like they say they will be able todo in a little while then theres realy no reason why not to use them.