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Discussion board help and admin topics => Half Baked Ideas => Topic started by: Grim on October 30, 2007, 06:15:30 AM

Title: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Grim on October 30, 2007, 06:15:30 AM
An oldie, but a goodie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohap0KAo7kE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohap0KAo7kE)

The main obstacle is centrifugal force.
If the device were to continue increasing in speed, the 'arms' would all fly out, and it would decelerate.

However, if a load was applied, the machine could stabilise.

Granted, it is a bit of a rough device, but the potential is there...
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Grim on October 30, 2007, 06:18:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl8dM2wQB4k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl8dM2wQB4k)

Another view of the same thing...
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 30, 2007, 06:44:54 AM
don't think this will work on its own.

i think it needs a little help, maybe if we apply a smot somewhere.

peace.
Title: But seriously dude...
Post by: Grim on October 30, 2007, 07:21:43 AM
These perpetual motion toys accelerate until centrifugal force destroys the imbalance.

They need the speed to be regulated. Load is a useful regulator.

Start one by spinning it like mad, and it will stall.
Start one by gently tipping it into motion, and it will accelerate until it stalls.

The range is there to extract some energy, between zero and stall.

Just have to stop it over revving...
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Low-Q on October 30, 2007, 07:58:28 AM
Quote from: Grim on October 30, 2007, 06:15:30 AM
An oldie, but a goodie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohap0KAo7kE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohap0KAo7kE)

The main obstacle is centrifugal force.
If the device were to continue increasing in speed, the 'arms' would all fly out, and it would decelerate.

However, if a load was applied, the machine could stabilise.

Granted, it is a bit of a rough device, but the potential is there...

What one forgets, is that the momentum on the right side is the same as in the left side. It looks like the mass on left and right side is the same, but no.

Vidar
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: shruggedatlas on October 30, 2007, 12:53:18 PM
Quote from: Grim on October 30, 2007, 06:15:30 AM
An oldie, but a goodie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohap0KAo7kE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohap0KAo7kE)

The main obstacle is centrifugal force.
If the device were to continue increasing in speed, the 'arms' would all fly out, and it would decelerate.

However, if a load was applied, the machine could stabilise.

Granted, it is a bit of a rough device, but the potential is there...


I do not think that centrifugal force is the main obstacle.  The main obstacle is that everything that goes down must be lifted back up in order to have perpetual motion, and that is impossible with any wheel design.  Those things that flip out - you are just playing with leverage.  There is no overunity to leverage, just mechanical advantage.
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: hansvonlieven on October 30, 2007, 03:59:56 PM
The main problem Grim is not centrifugal force, the main problem is that the idea of a flapwheel does not work. Even Leonardo da Vinci found that out when he was experimenting with the idea. What you are looking at is a computer animation, not a machine.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: AB Hammer on October 31, 2007, 11:43:01 AM
LOL

Hans I your correct and wrong on this one. Yes it just don't work but, It is not a computer animation, but if you listen closely you will here the fan blowing on it to make it turn. I have one in my shop and am going to smot it to make it turn. I will show it when it is done. LOL
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: hansvonlieven on October 31, 2007, 03:35:25 PM
LOL Alan,

Yes, I thought this at first too but when I looked a bit closer I became convinced that it is a very clever 3D animation. Anyway, either way it is a scam. :-)

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 31, 2007, 05:40:47 PM
Quote from: AB Hammer on October 31, 2007, 11:43:01 AM
I have one in my shop and am going to smot it to make it turn. I will show it when it is done. LOL

try something like this :)

you may need to try many other ways too :)
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: AB Hammer on October 31, 2007, 06:31:02 PM
FreeEnergy

That one may be to heavy for my little magnets that I bought, so I better stick with the wooden one.
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: FreeEnergy on November 01, 2007, 01:20:59 AM
does anyone think this will work?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3540.0%3Battach%3D13995%3Bimage&hash=5aa53a813aa23a609c1f570d376cd2bdac453300)
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Joh70 on November 01, 2007, 08:31:15 AM
@Grim: I did such a wheel by my own last year, 2006. i already destroyed it, because it was not very good looking. it didn't run! But i learned much about it. Its not as easy as it looks. Everey flipping must be prepared carefully by the right distance. So everything which is won is lost on the way up, because the arms don't move inside enough.

i don't think it is a scam. why then should the inventor say "almost a pm" when he scams. in that configuration it could run, but only when it is manufactured precisely by machines with its optimum dimensions. may be the arabic pm was the first successful try-out of this. Disadvantag: Energy gain is relatively low.

@FreeEnergy: Please try it out. it looks interesting. has to be fine-tuned carefully. but only half-way of flipping must be driven by the smot. then it falls out by its own, when smot-magnets are not to strong and when it cannot fall back. then it could turn. try it out. wants to know what prevents it from running.
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: FreeEnergy on November 01, 2007, 04:15:35 PM
Quote from: Joh70 on November 01, 2007, 08:31:15 AM
@FreeEnergy: Please try it out. it looks interesting. has to be fine-tuned carefully. but only half-way of flipping must be driven by the smot. then it falls out by its own, when smot-magnets are not to strong and when it cannot fall back. then it could turn. try it out. wants to know what prevents it from running.

i dont have the tools or materials right now :(


Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Joh70 on November 01, 2007, 05:42:17 PM
what a pity! maybe later. i will do my next wheel soon, hopefully this year (other one).
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Low-Q on November 04, 2007, 03:55:52 AM
Quote from: FreeEnergy on November 01, 2007, 01:20:59 AM
does anyone think this will work?
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D3540.0%3Battach%3D13995%3Bimage&hash=5aa53a813aa23a609c1f570d376cd2bdac453300)
You forget that the magnet will affect the rotor pieces as you whish, but the same magnetic force is prerventing it to rotate. Magnetic force works like a "grip" on magnetic items. In this case you just delay the gravity force at the same time as you try to unbalance the wheel. These two forces equalizes each other perfectly, so you loose nothing, and win nothing.

Vidar
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: AB Hammer on November 04, 2007, 05:48:00 AM
Low-Q

Good answer, that is why I only recommend the paddle flipper for a magnet trick.
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Low-Q on November 04, 2007, 02:43:28 PM
I think none of these flip-devices will ever work. The reason is simple: The mass density at one side is perfectly the oposite of the relative torque at the same side, and the flip will never occour in advace to unbalance the wheel - always too late. Any attempt to interfere whith these devices so the flip might occour sooner, will allways produce a drawback that counteract on the rotation. Then it stops.

Vidar
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: Joh70 on November 04, 2007, 02:59:05 PM
@Low-Q: I agree your high-Q-statement! Indeed all kind of these linear forces concept wheel never run. Nonetheless Bessler's wheel ran, because it wasn't such easy, although it wasn't much more complicated, i think.
Title: Re: This perpetual motion machine...
Post by: AB Hammer on November 04, 2007, 04:34:18 PM
Try this

A smot/old paddle type which should make a nice toy. From one side it will look allot like the old paddle flipper but on the other side the magnets will be doing the flipping, instead of your finger making it flip. It uses wood of course and refrigorator magnets (the large ones) You place 1 embedded in the side of each flipper with N down, now on a stand you that will be in track with the magnets and place 2 with the N up side by side about 1/2 inch apart and the first lower than the other at an angle. You will have to play a bit with that angle and then watch it go. PS make sure your hinges work freely before attaching them.

This toy should get people into more SMOT