Hello to all, who have already tried and installed an HHO electrolizer into a car with a fuel injection system
I want to install an HHO device into my old Volkswagen Golf 3 car.
It is an automatic transmission car with 75 PS and a Bosch Mono Jetronic fuel injection system.
Since I am not such a "autonut builder",
but want to test it , how much really such a HHO Elektrolyzer will help to reduce the fuel usage, I would like to inquire whether someone knows,
where one introduces best the detonating gas with a Golf3, without one must change anything at the oxygen sensor.
I telephoned yesterday with a friend, who is been versed with cars and he meant, I would have in my VW Golf 3 a Bosch mono Jetronic fuel injection system...
So, how can one build it best, in order to introduce the HHO gas there?
Generally I have also have one in principle question in addition...
How is the fuel usage to become lower, if the oxygen sensor with electronics measures the necessary gasoline quantity and afterwards the injection gasoline controls?
If one introduces the HHO gas thus behind the oxygen sensor, thus directly at the aspirating connecting piece then, then the engine gets still exactly the same much gasoline, since we did not change the oxygen sensor. What does then the additional HHO do ?
Can one drive then with lower number of revolutions with more power ?
Actually one would have to "hack" also the oxygen sensor electronics, so that there would be fewer gasolines injected, right ...?
Thus everything looks very complicated with fuel injection systems and therefore I ask myself whether it will be at all beneficial
to try it with fuel injection systems in an engine?
Thank you very much in advance.
Regards, Stefan.
hello hartiberlin!
first off I would like to say that this is a tremendous place for information!! This is my first post although I have been on the boards absorbing all the information for some time.
You are absolutely correct in your assumption that you have to "fool" the cars computer because of the oxygen sensor. If you do not manipulate the voltage output from the sensor to the computer the car will sense a lean condition from the HHO gas and actually try to compensate by adding more fuel. I have noticed many people who have added an electrolyzer to thier vehicle without modification to the oxygen sensor output and still claim an improvement in fuel consumption... It is possible, but to really benefit from the HHO it is necessary to change the sensor output.
due to HHOs powerful burn and the fact that it can effectively "boost octane" so to speak, it should be acceptable to run the engine leaner than the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7 to 1 that they require..
if you look on youtube ZeroFossilFuels made what is called an "EFIE" to manipulate the output of his oxygen sensor. It appears to not be very complicated. Im sure he has schematics somewhere for it ;D
I hope this helps somewhat... :)
good day! :D
You will also want to check here for his post about it. I think I remember him saying that there is some errors in the method. On that note I had a few questions and maybe zero will post more here about it. I have 3 O2 sensors in my truck 1 off each exhaust manifold and one off the catylitic converter. I was wondering what I may have to do to adjust those. I do have a program from www.digimoto.com that monitors the computer and puts up a nice graphical interface so you can see exactly what the o2 sensors are reading. the program was relatively inexpensive compared to it's versitality. I will try to get maybe some video of it in action monitoring the o2 sensors.
the oxygen sensors that come off the manifolds are the ones that you have to override. The sensor behind the catalytic is just a secondary to basically measure the effectiveness of the converter.
(thats generally how it works anyway.. it might be a little different depending on the make of the vehicle)
*edit* there is a company called www.hydrogen-boost.com that sells an electronic oxygen sensor overide has part of a complete effenciency package.
the basis of the circut is...
the o2 sensor outputs from 0 to 1 volt depending on the air/fuel ratio( 0 too lean, 1 too rich). the easiest way to find the necessary voltage to tell the computer it is at the 14.7 to 1 stoich. ratio is to wait for the vehicle to warm up and then measure the voltage coming from the 02 sensor. Once you have that reading its just a matter of designing a simple circut that will output that voltage. If you really wanted to get fancy you could run a 2 way switch with the newly created circut and a air/fuel ratio gauge. wire the switch up so the circut sends the output to the computer but the o2 sensor sends its voltage to the gauge. that way you could see the actual air/fuel ratio but still be compensated by the new circut inputing the voltage to the computer.. ( i hope this is making sense.. sometimes I cant perfectly describe my ideas.. please bare with me)
:)
Biggest part I worry about with this is under no load an during load the o2 sensor voltage will vary? Or since the hho would be a constant, you just have to offset for that differnece.
QuoteCERAMIC AND TEFLON COATING
Ceramic coating is not just for headers and turbine housings. It's also used on internal engine components. The main reason is to retain heat in the combustion chambers. Heat is power and the less that is lost to the engine itself means more to the ground. Heat keeps up exhaust velocities and that means a better flowing engine. It's also a way to prevent hotspots on combustion chamber parts, preventing detonation from occurring. This is normally a shop only procedure. If you plan on having it done, get the piston domes, valve faces, exhaust valve backsides, and combustion chamber roofs coated.
Teflon coating is mainly used on the piston skirts, but can be used on anything that encounters friction. Bearings, bearing surfaces, valve stems, etc, can all be Teflon coated. The Teflon coating lowers component friction freeing up more power, but also adds to engine component life. Piston clearances can be smaller, allowing a tighter clearance between the piston and the cylinder wall. This prevents power robbing and engine damaging piston ring blow-by.
http://asog.net/content/view/19/25/
Meyer mentioned Teflon coating was necessary to run on this gas alone. (common ducted oxyhydrogen) I have no idea what it costs of course. :)
I think we want pictures of the current state of the mobile already Mr Hartman. That's should give a good idea of what it's worth to do with? It will be great to see you build this and get it documented here with films, pdf's and photos. :-)
Quote from: readyakira on November 09, 2007, 12:45:31 PM
Biggest part I worry about with this is under no load an during load the o2 sensor voltage will vary? Or since the hho would be a constant, you just have to offset for that differnece.
actually to really see how the o2 sensor is working you should hook up an air/fuel gauge. running at idle or just past, the gauge is bouncing back and forth like crazy.. but when you put a load on it, the gauge stays closer to stoich.. when you floor it.. it goes to rich..
that is where having an air/fuel gauge hooked up would come into play.. on the bypass circut for the computer you could have a potentiometer and adjust it for the readout on the air/fuel gauge under load..
your concern is a good one though
All an O2 sensor is , is a temperature sending unit . To correct the signal for HHO use this.
http://www.eagle-research.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=15
And if you want even better performance and economy with you gasoline/HHO engine install a set of these.
http://www.directhits.com/
If you want your HHO and gasoline to burn at similar timing , inject a little bit of your exhaust gases into the HHO line or Cell . This will help stop pre-ignition . Make sure you use a flashback arrestor in the HHO line.
Safety , Us a solenoid and a manual switch that gets its power from the ignition system. This assures that the Cell shuts down when the engine stops running and the key is off . If you do not do this and wire it direct with a switch and forget to shut the Cell off, the next time you start that engine it will be full of HHO and it will go BOOM. So wire to the keyed ignition side of your fuse box.
If you would like a diagram of this Message me and I will work on something for you.
IronHead
My understanding is to inject the HHO into the air intake manifold, this would simplify the connection, typically the Mass airflow sensor (MAS) is located there and it is connected to the engine manifold and air filter by a plastic duct. you can drill a hole there (before the MAS and after the air filter), and put a connector in for the HHO gas inlet. put this close to the MAS unit.
The other thing is what IronHead has mentioned above. This is of course for HHO assist system.
Ironhead,
I have heard of the directhits but have not purchased them yet, have you tried them?
You want to connect the HHO line directly into the intake plenum away from the break booster as much as possible .Use 1/2" or 5/8" vacuum hose to do this .Other types of hose will collapse.
Yes I use this electronic re-curve system (EFIE) and the DirectHit boosters on my 2000 4.0 Fuel Injected Cherokee . The power increase alone is well worth it. As far as the MPG savings that all depends on your Cell design and Alternator type. I use this type of alternator for very high full time loads , I use up to 100 amps 24VDC in my Cells . These are PWM controlled from 0 to 100 amps at 24 volts and are connected to the throttle via 5k pot to the controller but you dont need to go that far.
High end alternator link
http://www.electrodyne.com/index.html
I suggest you build a dryer/bubble with safe caps something like this. This is a bit more than you need for a basic system but you get the idea. For the wool you need pure 316L wool so it does not rust. you can find it here
AISI 316L Stainless Steel Wool
http://briwax-online.com/GMTStainless.html
Quote from: IronHead on November 09, 2007, 04:03:52 PM
I use this type of alternator for very high full time loads , I use up to 100 amps 24VDC in my Cells . These are PWM controlled from 0 to 100 amps at 24 volts and are connected to the throttle via 5k pot to the controller but you dont need to go that far.
High end alternator link
http://www.electrodyne.com/index.html
That brings up another Idea I had that would prob be a ways down the road as I have yet to build the generator big enough and efficient enough. But anyways I was thinking, for alternators, what do you think about 2 alternators frame mounted in the drive shaft area and belt driven from the power of the drive shaft (my car is a truck) and some sort of switching unit that turns them on during decelleration. If my thinking is correct, this would use the inertia of the vehicle to turn the alternators, thus reduceing the load applied to the engine. It should also assist in reducing wear on the brake system as they should put a load on the driveshaft thus helping it to slow down?
Quote from: starcruiser on November 09, 2007, 03:51:19 PM
My understanding is to inject the HHO into the air intake manifold, this would simplify the connection, typically the Mass airflow sensor (MAS) is located there and it is connected to the engine manifold and air filter by a plastic duct. you can drill a hole there (before the MAS and after the air filter), and put a connector in for the HHO gas inlet. put this close to the MAS unit.
The other thing is what IronHead has mentioned above. This is of course for HHO assist system.
As said above I think the line needs to be after your throttle plate. If you place it between the MAS and throttle plate, you would have the chance of (pumping) excessive amounts of HHO into the intake which would probably mess up and adjustments you have made to the way the computer reacts to the added HHO. There has been talk in places of using 2 lines one in the intake plenum, and one in the duct leading to the throttle plate, since under full accelleration the there is hardly any vaccum in the engine to draw with. Best of course would (I think) be if you could route a line for each cylinder as close to the intake valves as possible. This is the place where vacuum should be highest when the engine needs it most as it is the bottleneck of the cylinders.
you will not produce enough HHO to pump into the engine it will never pressurize as long as the engine is running , you pull the HHO off via engine vacuum.When your engine is running your Cell is under constant vacuum. Even though the vacuum drops there is still enough to draw in the HHO. It has yet to be determand if more HHO is produced under high vacuum though it appears that way . Does not matter really if your just getting started in this and want to get some fuel millage enhancement. Just Build It , install it and go from there.
EDIT for my lack of proper reading.
Hi Stefan,
Have you installed the HHO in your Golf? would you please give us your experience with it, Photos, Pdfs, Videos would be great as I have the same car and wondering about the best way to get around the sensors.
Cheers
Sfephan, I was also curious if you had any success with the VW. I also have a question on a normaly aspirated mercedes 4CYL diesel ,I dont want to blow the head off .I see big rigs claim to use Booster's.I'm sure it's possible ,just not sure about ratio .If any one has experience with hho booster and non turbo diesel I would GREATLY appreciate a little guidence thanks chet
Many regard this as the definitive document on boosting cars with hydroxy gas:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.pdf
and the experts are to be found here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/
There are dangers. This gas is highly explosive - bubblers are essential.
consider also the Workingwatercar group if you want a pure hydroxy solution
but be advised that it is a much more difficult build.
Paul.
Paul thankyou VERY much for the info, chet
Quote from: ramset on February 27, 2008, 08:59:17 PM
Sfephan, I was also curious if you had any success with the VW. I also have a question on a normaly aspirated mercedes 4CYL diesel ,I dont want to blow the head off .I see big rigs claim to use Booster's.I'm sure it's possible ,just not sure about ratio .If any one has experience with hho booster and non turbo diesel I would GREATLY appreciate a little guidence thanks chet
Sorry guys,
have not had any time yet to play with these concepts.
I am collecting now only the needed infos and will
try to get to it in April to June this year.
Also need first to build an own electrolyzer or
go with a commercial one.
So let the solutions come in.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi, I have a 1985 VW Sirocco which is just about the same as your golf. I have had different system in the car for over a year now, and have never had a flash back with it hook up like this. I tied into the main vacuum line just after the intake manifold with a T valve, and that line goes strait too the hho device. I don't use a bubbler or flash supressent type of set ups, strait too the tank. I use a water mister installed in the intake system to keep the tempretures below hydrogens flash point of 500 degrees and too cool any hot spots in the whole intake system. I used water too solve water related problems ;). Here is a video showing the vacuum electrolysis unit working in the car: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=GMYNiE-KOn4
If you have any questions feel free to ask.
Have you read the study by Arizona State on the use of hydrogen in internal combustion engines? That will keep you safe in adding hydrogen to internal combustion engines, for knowlege is power, and better safe than sorry. :)
Well, I hope that helps you out for we have the same type of car and I have had no problems with it hooked up this way for over a year now.
Oh! I don't use any salts of any kind just God given rain water. I am working on Dingle/Meyer type techology but that is still in the R&D phase once I get it working I will finally be off of gasoline for all time :o
H20Power
Impressive video!
How do you manage to get such good gas production while not using any electrolyte?
It does not look like a series cell design?
Hi, I spaced the plates .020 inch apart and yes is a parallel type cell. I belive I used 18 or 19 plates in all. The close spacing and the effects of vacuum on electrolysis make a big differance.
H20 thanx a bunch for all that info . That Arizona study is great Chet
Quote from: h20power on March 02, 2008, 02:34:36 PM
Hi, I spaced the plates .020 inch apart and yes is a parallel type cell. I belive I used 18 or 19 plates in all. The close spacing and the effects of vacuum on electrolysis make a big differance.
H20Power
Thanks for the info!
How thick are your plates?
Do you have any idea how much gas you are making, i.e. liters per minute @ how many amps?
The plates are .01 inches thick and it is making aproximently 3L/min, but the output of the cell goes up and down with the demands of the engine, due to the Vacuum effects on electrolysis, and it take from 7-10 amps. Remember it's only rain water no salts added of anykind.
h20power
WOW! Thats very impressive!
Are you saying that by merely moving the plates much closer (0.2" apart) and placing them in a parallel configuration, you are getting these good results, or are you using any other tricks to get to these figures? :)
H20 plain water is a HUGE benefit here {obvious to you] you mention a water mist system as an add on to your hydroxy can you share any of this in a brief schem .my jaw dropped when I saw your video with plain water and your very thin gauge material thanx chet
Hi Everyone, Yeah no tricks, it's just plain rain water. This is a good water mister: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html. There are other brands but this one works very well.
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=239. Just get the base model for most of us don't need the other stuff.
This is where I got the shims: http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/shsp.cfm and the stainless steel too.
H2Power thanks again for the info .Do you have anything monitoring your intake plenum temperature ,Chet
H20 I see bye your other posts you have a lot of irons in the fire, I can see your objective and you are definately in the spirit of this forum as am I , I know time is a factor for all of us .If you could give more info on your present system at your convienience It would be great Chet
No, not on the intake temps at least not so I can read it.
Quote from: h20power on March 03, 2008, 06:15:07 PM
Hi Everyone, Yeah no tricks, it's just plain rain water. This is a good water mister: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/cp.html. There are other brands but this one works very well.
http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=239. Just get the base model for most of us don't need the other stuff.
This is where I got the shims: http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/shsp.cfm and the stainless steel too.
H20power
That's amazing!
Are you using straight DC or are you pulsing your cell?
Why did you need polyester shims?
Could you give us any tips on the construction of your cell, i.e. how to maintain such a small gap between the plates without touching each other?
Thanks again for answering our questions.
Hi Passion1, I am using a PWM, and I used the shims to seal the unit and get the spacing I wanted. The shims work great in that they are right on the money on spacing, I put them on the ends where the bolts you see on the cell is it runs the full length from top to bottom same size as the plates, but only a 1/4 wide...I chanel the water through the plates. But this cell for the most part is just a gas saver, the other cell is in the works.
H20power
Thank you for the answer!
Are you pulsing the cell with a specific frequency or is the PWM merely used to control the voltage/amps? Are you using any inductors with the PWM?
Hi, I use the PWM just to put it under some sort of control, nothing more.
Hi H2OPower,
Thanks a lot so far for all your support.
I have 2 questions please.
1 - The Hydrogen Cell is connected throw 1 path in your Golf correct? because I saw other cars (mostly big cars) it is connected throw 2 paths 1 the intake manifold (when the engine is on but the car is not moving) and 2 (the main wide air flow used when the car is running or the RPM is high) but I guess we have only 1 path in the Golf right?
2 - When your are pressing the GAS pedal to move the car, how to Motor will know that it should not take more GAS and should depend more on the Hydrogen?
Thanks a million.
MG
I have it in a VW Sirocco, but to try an answer the question. The effects of vacuum on eletrolysis kinda act like a self regulating unit. If the demand is high on the engine so is the vacuum, when the demand is low, the vacuum pressures created are lower. I hooked up to the main vacuum line feeding the brake booster on the car right at the intake manifold, and it goes strait to the cell.
The effects of a vacuum on electrolysis Here is the math of the process:
At 1 ATM 298k the energy requirments are W = PDV = (101.30 x 10^3 Pa)(1.5 moles)(22.4 x 10^-3 m^3/mol)(298K/273K) = 3.715 KJ
At .2 ATM and 298k the energy requirments are; W = PDV = (20.260 x 10^3 Pa)(1.5 moles)(22.4 x 10^-3 m^3/mol)(298K/273K) = 0.7431 KJ
At .1 ATM and 298k the energy requirments are; W = PDV = (10.130 x 10^3 Pa)(1.5 moles)(22.4 x 10^-3 m^3/mol)(298K/273K) = 0.3715 KJ
Note that is take lest energy to break water down with higher vacuum pressures, but note the power being fed into the cell stays constant so you get more gas as a result.
I hope this helps you out.
H20 I have a question .In my part of the U.S.A. families of lower income are having to spend monies they do not have to attempt to pass emmision standards[set bye the state] for their cars .I know you are on a mission to run on straight hydroxy, however the simpler design booster could get most of these cars thru emmisions without sending them to the scrap yard which would be a win win situation for the taxpayer[no car no work we all pay] and the families [a good car that gets better milage and cleaner emmisions ].I wish to donate my time and effort to help these families with this problem [in an election year and a very good cause] and I am VERY sincere .My question can I use you're cell design without a pwm and with a bubbler and still use rain water to get the job done [Emmisions] your comments greatly appreciated Chet
Ramset,
That cell disign was ment for use with a vacuum, but it's purpose is just to save on gas. Things that you don't see in my video are a water flow pump and a water mister. The cell is quite simple other than having two chambers in one. One chamber is for the electrolysis and the other for the water level and water flow pump. I don't like bubblers to me they are a waste of time, Stanley Meyer didn't use one nor does Dr. Daniel Dingel. The key is to understand the use of hydrogen in internal combustion engines. I already posted the Arizona study that will aid in putting hydrogen safely into the engine. I just took advantage of the weakest spot in an engines design with respect to effeicency.
Now in using my design as long as you don't intend to sell it sure be my guest. The cost for the cell only is around $80-90 dollars. Water mister is around $190 dollars with shipping, and the water flow pump is around $50 dollars. The other cell or new WFC I posted is ment only for Dingel/Meyer type of technology and will cost over $250 dollars for the metal and tank only.
The way I made the cell is like this the plates are negetive postive negetive ect.., and are 3x6. The plastic shims are cut 1/4x3 and are at both sides of the plates giving an 3x5 working area. Now I made this for 3 phase power suply but it can be used as normal with just one contection on either side of the tank. You will have too drill a larger hole on the side you don't want to thread into for the connections, and fill that hole with the same thinkness as the metal with plastic shims so everything seals up right, other than that it was very simple and I leave it up to you on how you want too build it. I used 19 plates I think all spaced .020 apart. When making them you will have to put in the shims for the full length or you will never get it flat then when it is all tighten up pull the unused shims out. The tank is made of 1/2 inch acrylic too withstand a blow back if it happens, better too use 3/4 if you are sure you will get some blow back from time too time. It is built like a tank very strong. I don't play around with fuel of any type, to this date I have never poped off a single bubble of hho with fire. I don't play with my work, I keep the proper focuse at all times. Hydrogen is too be respected at all times, and I have no time for fun and games. The connections are outside of the tank no wire is too be in the tanks at anytime that way the electricty goes only where you want it too go, and that is in the plates for production of hho gas. Even the tubing I use is ment for the job at hand: http://www.sisweb.com/vacuum/sis/steelhos.htm and the level switch I used for the auto fill;
http://www.liquidlevel.com/products_switches_standard_vt_LS-14-190.asp
I hope this helps you out some.
H20 thanx for the reply I am trying to keep costs to a minimum[like the smack booster] and safety to a maximum like your design no electrolyte just rain water thanx again Chet
Quote from: h20power on March 05, 2008, 05:55:38 PM
Ramset,
That cell disign was ment for use with a vacuum, but it's purpose is just to save on gas. Things that you don't see in my video are a water flow pump and a water mister. The cell is quite simple other than having two chambers in one. One chamber is for the electrolysis and the other for the water level and water flow pump. I don't like bubblers to me they are a waste of time, Stanley Meyer didn't use one nor does Dr. Daniel Dingel.
h20power
Thank you for the information!
What I do not understand is why your design can run the hydrogen straight into the engine
without any explosion while, almost without exception, everybody else says a bubbler
is a must?
I can see your design works, but I want to understand why the bubbler is not necessary.
What are you doing differently than other?
How do we guarantee our safety without the bubbler? Thanks again for your explanations.
Hi passion1 ,
As far as I know I am the only one that has connected too the main vacuum line on the car other than the Joe Cell guys and I don't think that I have seen them having any blow backs either, but I keep it safe by not letting the tempertures in the intake system reach 500 degrees, the flash point of hydrogen, with the addtion of the water mister. When reading the Arizona Study, the one thing they where very clear on is cooling all hot spots in the intake system. My solution to this problem was the use of water, by way of introducing a water mist into the intake system. The water mist absorbs the heat thus keeping it from flashing the hydrogen. It has shown to work very well so far. Dingle uses some sort of aluminium tank with rubber in it and Meyer a quenching circuit. But when I read the college study that was my solution too the problem. Water mist will stay at 100 degrees until it has truned into steam, but the water flow is continue'es so that makes it very unlikely the intake system will get much over 100 degrees.
As you can see I just solved the problem a different way, but I did prepair for the worst in that the containor is built to withstand a flash back if it happens, even the hose lines can take the pressure. But if it does blow back it first has too over come the vacuum that is in the containor, for my car it's 12-30 mm Hg. I race around with my car a lot and like I said I have never had a blow back yet. So now you have at least three different ways that others have done it without the use of a bubbler.
I took the science aproach in keeping the temps down well below that of hydrogens flash point. Water is a great heat absorber so I used it to solve the problem I read about in the college study.
h20power
BRILLIANT is all I can say!!
Hello H2
Just 1 more question to understand more about the gas flow, now if the car is on but like in a traffic Jam or something and generating hydrogen with the same rate as like running on the highway, where then the extra generated hydrogen goes after words which was generated during the traffic?
Is it this the same thing that something like the MAP Sensor Enhancer would do?
Thank you.
Mag while I'm not an expert on this [H20 cell] his cell works on vacuum suction relevant to engine RPM the more RPM [highway speeds] the more production less RPM [ traffic conditions] less production .In high production cells potentiometers or something similar to a throttle positioning censor is used to control gas production hope this helps Chet
The effects of vacuum on electrolysis is more like self-regulating supply and demand, when it comes to an engine. The more demand you put on it the more vacuums produced and the more hho sucked into the combustion camber. That's the best explaination I can give for how it all works.