...is one of the answers we are looking for...
what do you think?
edit - sorry i had to reword the subject to be more specific. thank you :) I think I got it this time.
http://www.jsd.claremont.edu/Physics/demo/thrmcvtr.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect
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?Thermoelectricity? If a closed loop is formed by joining the ends of two wires made of dissimilar metals and the two junctions of the metals are at different temperatures, an electromotive force, or voltage, will be produced that is proportional to the temperature difference between the junctions.
The thermoelectric effect can be demonstrated by making a device called a ?thermocouple.? You will need two copper wires and a length of steel wire, such as a straightened paper clip. Twist one end of each of the copper wires around the ends of the paper clip. Connect the free ends of the copper wires to a galvanometer. Observe the galvanometer as you place one copper-paper clip junction in ice water and the other end in a flame.
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Just in case you were not aware of this, here is something in this area that is under development:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Eneco_power_chip
Regards,
Mike
Quote from: mikey on November 22, 2007, 11:01:42 AM
Just in case you were not aware of this, here is something in this area that is under development:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Eneco_power_chip
Regards,
Mike
thanks, i will check it out :)
http://www.fujitaka.com/pub/peltier/english/thermoelectric_power.html
We need a "solar cell" that works efficiently at the frequency of waste heat.
Then we would need no cold pole, just stick this "heat solar cell" to the
heat source and you could extract some heat and convert it to elecricity...
This "heat solar cell" would just become colder as the surrounding when current would be
drawn from it and suck in the heat
automatically if electrical power would be drawn from it.
With it you could build a freezer (fridge) that generates electricity and does not need
electricity to run ! ;)
Hopefully some people in the microchip departments are already working on
such a "heat diode".
You would only need to put many million diodes with the right
microstructures in parrallel onto a wafer and make sure the
diodes are efficient at the thermal noise level.
You can also USE .
Peltier elements !!
Some type that you can buy to produce heat or frigid.
THEY WILL PRODUCE ELECTRICITY IF you hold both side to differnt temperaures.
(Heat up with Solar in parabol or fresnell , and cool down the antipod of peltier..)
PESE
What most of you seem to forget (except Stefan who actually says it in a way) is that thermoelectircal effect between two metals of different temperatures is well known, but also only usefull when there is actually quite a substantial temperature difference between the hot and the cold metal.
This can be tapped usefully when we actually have one hot metal (like an engine exhaust for example) and one cold one (which is cooled continually for example).
But that also implies we already have a clear seperation of hot and cold.
In normal environmental temperature, there is no such seperation (most of the time).
If there is no clear distinction between a hot and a cold area, normal thermoelectrical elements will not work.
What we want is an electronic component that will actually ABSORB heat energy and turn it into electrical output.
Note this is different from using the kinetic energy difference between the hot and cold metal to obtain an electron flow.
Ideally we would not even have a hot and a cold metal between which the electrons must flow.
So like Stefan states, it seems what we want is more like a solar cell that runs off photons in the infrared/heat range, which has electrons flow because of direct excitation due to the heat energy and the n-p effect that is so crucial to the operation of solar cells.
another possibly interesting option is this: the Zaev-capacitor array. (http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/nzaevncp.htm)
In short, it is a ninlinear ferroelectric capacitor array which appears to convert ambient/environmental temperature directly into electricity.
During its function, the temperature of the air directly around the array drops, and the electrical output is at 135% of the input.
I haven't seen any replications of this array at all, anywhere, but the documentation provided by mr. Naudin seems to be quite solid.
oh and @mikey: though it is indeed very interesting to keep an eye on that thermoelectric energy chip that Eneco has developed and patented, I think we must keep in mind that Eneco is an energy company and that in general energy companies are not at all anxious about providing the populace with free or even cheap energy. The fact that they have patented it probably means it will never be marketed at affordable prices. After all, killing your own business is stupid. Much like the hydrogen technology and the biofuels, I fear it will be presented as a possible solution to the energy crisis, but in actuality the energy companies are gearing up to make as much money as possible on what should have become a cheap and sustainable solution...
question: will this tech still work below zero temperatures? i.e -02 and -16 will give you electrical current. as long as you have temperature differences?
http://availabletechnologies.pnl.gov/technology.asp?id=85
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/5185/weird2.html
see attachment :)
Look at this:
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.modernmechanix.com%2Fmags%2Fqf%2Fc%2FScienceAndMechanics%2F6-1960%2Flrg_kerosene_radio.jpg&hash=a47fa96a6e9245a88a260c8b2b8a4f2ad95cd4a9)
Source: http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2007/10/05/kerosene-lamp-powers-radio/
Hans von Lieven
See my post http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,120.msg59797.html#msg59797
you might find it relates to this topic.....V
thanks vortex.
also can someone answer my previous question?
will the temperatures of below zero still work with this tech? let say -10 and -20 temperature will result in electrical current? should still work right?
my goal here is to use normal ambient room temperature for energy production.
i mean can i get reliable electricity using normal room temperature vs outside temperature? even when working with temperatures below zero?
thanks guys :)
Why not just reverse global warming... ;D
Tesla wrote.....
I read some statements from Carnot and Lord Kelvin (then Sir William Thomson) which meant virtually that it is impossible for an inanimate mechanism or self-acting machine to cool a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operate by the heat abstracted. These statements interested me intensely. Evidently a living being could do this very thing, and since the experiences of my early life which I have related had convinced me that a living being is only an automaton, or, otherwise stated, a "self-acting-engine," I came to the conclusion that it was possible to construct a machine which would do the same. As the first step toward this realization I conceived the following mechanism. Imagine a thermopile consisting of a number of bars of metal extending from the earth to the outer space beyond the atmosphere. The heat from below, conducted upward along these metal bars, would cool the earth or the sea or the air, according to the location of the lower parts of the bars, and the result, as is well known, would be an electric current circulating in these bars. The two terminals of the thermopile could now be joined through an electric motor, and, theoretically, this motor would run on and on, until the media below would be cooled down to the temperature of the outer space. This would be an inanimate engine which, to all evidence, would be cooling a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operating by the heat abstracted.
Up there for thinkin' mate..... ;)
@scotty1: You're just talking about a heat sink here. Even if we ignore the fact that we simply cannot build a huge metal heat sink that extends from the earths surface into space, it would still not be a good solution. We'd be better off using geothermal power plants.
@FreeEnergy: As far as I know thermocouples only work when there is actually HEAT that can dissipate accoring to the laws of thermodynamics. Heat is not the same as relative temperature difference. As far as I know, the Seebeck effect (thermionic emission) only occurs at certain temperatures, and not necessarily at certain temperature differences. It is similar to the phenomena of only seeing the Peltier effect (reverse of Seebeck effect: thermocouples cool the surrounding air when additional electrical energy is supplied) when electrical energy is put in, and not when more electricity is "sucked out". (excuse the laymens terminology here but I think what I mean is clear? It is the adding of the energy that causes the cooling effect, not the subtracting of the energy, even if the potential difference and the relative electron flow should be similar.)
Obviously it would be fantastic if we could simply make thermocouples that produce output on temp differences between -20 and zero degrees, as it would mean free power everywhere except on the poles, and it would probably mean huge amounts of output in hotter regions.
But as far as I know thermionic emission at those temperatures is simply not possible. Electrostatically stimulated emission as in "cold cathode" vacuum tubes is possible at those temperatures, but then we're talking about a whole different ballgame.
also, if we look at that Eneco thermocouple chip for example, we can see that although it is a really nice design and it operates in temperatures up to 600 degrees Celcius, it still only gives a maximum efficiency of 20 to 30%. So 70 to 80% of the heat energy still goes to waste. Which just shows that it's a "simple" thermocouple and not an actual heat-to-electricity convertor.
Quote from: scotty1 on November 26, 2007, 06:13:17 AM
Why not just reverse global warming... ;D
Tesla wrote.....
I read some statements from Carnot and Lord Kelvin (then Sir William Thomson) which meant virtually that it is impossible for an inanimate mechanism or self-acting machine to cool a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operate by the heat abstracted. These statements interested me intensely. Evidently a living being could do this very thing, and since the experiences of my early life which I have related had convinced me that a living being is only an automaton, or, otherwise stated, a "self-acting-engine," I came to the conclusion that it was possible to construct a machine which would do the same. As the first step toward this realization I conceived the following mechanism. Imagine a thermopile consisting of a number of bars of metal extending from the earth to the outer space beyond the atmosphere. The heat from below, conducted upward along these metal bars, would cool the earth or the sea or the air, according to the location of the lower parts of the bars, and the result, as is well known, would be an electric current circulating in these bars. The two terminals of the thermopile could now be joined through an electric motor, and, theoretically, this motor would run on and on, until the media below would be cooled down to the temperature of the outer space. This would be an inanimate engine which, to all evidence, would be cooling a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operating by the heat abstracted.
Up there for thinkin' mate..... ;)
thanks.
Quote from: Koen1 on November 26, 2007, 06:55:14 AM
@scotty1: You're just talking about a heat sink here. Even if we ignore the fact that we simply cannot build a huge metal heat sink that extends from the earths surface into space, it would still not be a good solution. We'd be better off using geothermal power plants.
@FreeEnergy: As far as I know thermocouples only work when there is actually HEAT that can dissipate accoring to the laws of thermodynamics. Heat is not the same as relative temperature difference. As far as I know, the Seebeck effect (thermionic emission) only occurs at certain temperatures, and not necessarily at certain temperature differences. It is similar to the phenomena of only seeing the Peltier effect (reverse of Seebeck effect: thermocouples cool the surrounding air when additional electrical energy is supplied) when electrical energy is put in, and not when more electricity is "sucked out". (excuse the laymens terminology here but I think what I mean is clear? It is the adding of the energy that causes the cooling effect, not the subtracting of the energy, even if the potential difference and the relative electron flow should be similar.)
Obviously it would be fantastic if we could simply make thermocouples that produce output on temp differences between -20 and zero degrees, as it would mean free power everywhere except on the poles, and it would probably mean huge amounts of output in hotter regions.
But as far as I know thermionic emission at those temperatures is simply not possible. Electrostatically stimulated emission as in "cold cathode" vacuum tubes is possible at those temperatures, but then we're talking about a whole different ballgame.
also, if we look at that Eneco thermocouple chip for example, we can see that although it is a really nice design and it operates in temperatures up to 600 degrees Celcius, it still only gives a maximum efficiency of 20 to 30%. So 70 to 80% of the heat energy still goes to waste. Which just shows that it's a "simple" thermocouple and not an actual heat-to-electricity convertor.
thanks :)
Quote from: scotty1 on November 26, 2007, 06:13:17 AM
Why not just reverse global warming... ;D
Tesla wrote.....
I read some statements from Carnot and Lord Kelvin (then Sir William Thomson) which meant virtually that it is impossible for an inanimate mechanism or self-acting machine to cool a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operate by the heat abstracted.
Not true! This is exactly what the dunking bird, also called the dippy drinking bird does.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdemoroom.physics.ncsu.edu%2Fmultimedia%2Fimages%2Fdemos%2F4C3130.jpg&hash=50725f2b63df3a0d2ea07ad4fec1ea2bac61731e)
The familiar Dunking Bird, invented by Miles Sullivan in 1946, is one of the most popular physics toys of all time.
For an explanation of how it works see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_bird
Hope this helps
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 26, 2007, 02:47:02 PM
Quote from: scotty1 on November 26, 2007, 06:13:17 AM
Why not just reverse global warming... ;D
Tesla wrote.....
I read some statements from Carnot and Lord Kelvin (then Sir William Thomson) which meant virtually that it is impossible for an inanimate mechanism or self-acting machine to cool a portion of the medium below the temperature of the surrounding, and operate by the heat abstracted.
Not true! This is exactly what the dunking bird, also called the dippy drinking bird does.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdemoroom.physics.ncsu.edu%2Fmultimedia%2Fimages%2Fdemos%2F4C3130.jpg&hash=50725f2b63df3a0d2ea07ad4fec1ea2bac61731e)
The familiar Dunking Bird, invented by Miles Sullivan in 1946, is one of the most popular physics toys of all time.
For an explanation of how it works see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drinking_bird
Hope this helps
Hans von Lieven
so this bird works below zero temperature?
My answer was in response to a general statement made. The device contradicts this.
By using a liquid in the bird that volatilises below zero and if you used something other than water in the glass, yes it would.
Hans von Lieven
Well I don't know, Hans...
Seems to me that the evaporating water clearly cools the "beak" as it evaporates,
and thus absorbs heat from the glass and vapour as the vapour condenses, which causes the vapour to condense and the "bird" to "peck" up some more water.
So far indeed there is clearly action caused by cooling the internal medium below that of its surroundings...
But the water needs to be replaced, and the vapour and fluid inside the glass "bird" can't really cool down very much, can it? Otherwise the nicely balanced trick depending on the tiny temperature gradient caused by the water evaporating and the internal pressure difference in the vapour caused by the condensation of the vapour in the "beak" won't work... Even if it did, the bird is certainly not known for its fantastic cooling, where frost forms on it after it has been going for a while ;)
In any case, from the wiki article you yourself supplied, quote:
QuoteThe drinking bird is basically a heat engine that exploits a temperature differential to convert heat energy to kinetic energy and perform mechanical work. Like all heat engines, the drinking bird works through a thermodynamic cycle.
<snip>
the bird will continue to dip even without a source of water, as long as the head is wet, or as long as a temperature differential is maintained between the head and body. This differential can be generated without evaporative cooling in the head -- for instance, a heat source directed at the bottom bulb will create a pressure differential between top and bottom that will drive the engine. The ultimate source of energy is heat in the surrounding environment.
A recent analysis showed that the evaporative heat flux driving a small bird was about 0.5 W, where as the mechanical power expressed in its motion was about 50 microwatts, or a total system efficiency of about 0.01%.
Damn unefficient I'd say ;)
But perhaps you are right, and perhaps we could figure out a combination of internal and "dipping" fluids that evaporate at just the right temperature difference below zero degrees. Although I suppose the entire thing should then be kept sealed off to keep the water replacement from evaporating into the environment, but that might work...
Should be easy to try with a normal "bird"; just set up the "bird" with a full cup of water, and seal the set in an air-tight container with something like a nail hanging above the cup of water so that the condensing water drips back into the cup (possibly use plastic to suspent it whic doubles as nice sloping surface, etc). Then put it somewhere in the living room and see how long it keeps running...
Still, smart thermocoupling or the Zaev array seem like better options to use heat difference for output.
You guy's don't understand Aussie humour do you....hehehehehe.
I would recommend reading the whole Tesla article, as the thermopile was just an analogy Tesla used to determine if he should look in that direction for a device to be constructed.....
http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_art09.html (http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_art09.html)
It's a bit over 1/2 way down.
-----------------------------------
Hey Hans...sorry I didn't get back yet....I nearly made that coil ages ago...still have the iron wire....never finished it.
G'day all,
@ Scottie LOL
@ Koen
There are some people seriously working on using this phenomenon to generate free energy. Find the MINTO WHEEL group in yahoo groups or just do a general search under this term and you will know what I am talking about.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 26, 2007, 06:12:20 PM
My answer was in response to a general statement made. The device contradicts this.
By using a liquid in the bird that volatilises below zero and if you used something other than water in the glass, yes it would.
Hans von Lieven
ok thanks, so what kind of liquid(s) would be good to use for the inside and outside of the bird?
also what do you think of sealing the bird inside a high ceiling container, and at the top have a sponge so that the liquid drips down back to the "drinking water"?
Why a sponge? How does a sponge increase the condensation rate of the water vapour in any way?
Quote from: Koen1 on November 27, 2007, 05:26:10 AM
Why a sponge? How does a sponge increase the condensation rate of the water vapour in any way?
thats why i am asking, just a thought.
Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 27, 2007, 01:19:46 AM
@ Koen
There are some people seriously working on using this phenomenon to generate free energy. Find the MINTO WHEEL group in yahoo groups or just do a general search under this term and you will know what I am talking about.
Oh I know about the minto wheel. I prefer other gravity wheels though. ;)
Hans? you there?
I'm sorry, Hans is currently being recharged. Please hold.
;)
Sorry guys, have a relative in hospital, so not much time for posting.
Talk to you later
PS: She is getting much better.
Hans
well I did a little searching and I cannot find an actual producer for the "Varicond" nonlinear capacitors...
It appears mr. Zaev used original Russian Variconds in his device.
Does anyone know where to obtain Variconds or similar nonlinear ferroelectric capacitors?
If nobody knows where to get them, perhaps we can figure out a way to make some relatively simple nonlinear capacitors ourselves?
It seems to me that rather than absorbing the excess heat input and converting it to electrical potential (which is what happens in 'normal' thermocouples where the positive energy difference between hot and cool metal is exploited and therefore only works within a specific temperature range and with an excess of heat which can 'sink' away into the cooler metal), we may want to actually absorb the heat energy in an active way, "sucking" the heat out of the air. This appears to be what the Zaev array does: the activity of the electric charges deposited on and removed from the capacitors according to his circuit and setup appears to stimulate energy absorption in the form of environmental heat, which shows up as additional charge in the output. An active over unity heat sucker device. :)
Sounds like it may be very worthwile to build a version.
I was actually considering building a simplified array first in order to test it. If it does indeed work, then why not build a proper air cooling unit based on the principle? In summer I could sit in a nicely cooled room, working on my computer that runs on the energy produced by the air cooler. for example. ;)
And just imagine the advantages in a hot climate! Can you just see the desert nomads sitting in their airconditioned tents, watching football on a tv powered by their air cooler?
In a period of global warming, this might just be the thing we need...
And of course there's a few other ideas that have bobbed up in my mind...
Imagine we take a 'normal' thermocouple, and we paint the hot metal black and leave it in the sun. We also take the cold metal, and we hook it up to the Zaev array (either directly, or through some form of efficient heat exchanger), so that the metal can be actively cooled by the Zaev array. Now we take the output generated by the thermocouple and feed it into the Zaev array. The Zaev array should now actively lower the thermocouples cold metal temp, thereby theoretically increasing the efficientcy of the thermocouple a little. And the energy output of the array should be higher than the input, so we now have output from a thermocouple powering a heat convertor cooling the thermocouple and outputting more than was put in.
Now if someone feels the need to do a proper energy calculation on this, I would be much obliged. :)
Quote from: FreeEnergy on November 27, 2007, 05:15:23 AM
Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 26, 2007, 06:12:20 PM
My answer was in response to a general statement made. The device contradicts this.
By using a liquid in the bird that volatilises below zero and if you used something other than water in the glass, yes it would.
Hans von Lieven
ok thanks, so what kind of liquid(s) would be good to use for the inside and outside of the bird?
also what do you think of sealing the bird inside a high ceiling container, and at the top have a sponge so that the liquid drips down back to the "drinking water"?
G'day Free,
I think this is what you want an answer for.
I'll answer the last question first. You only want a small amount of liquid to adhere to the top. The device relies on evaporation for its cooling effect. If you have surplus liquid there the surface of the liquid will evaporate and pull heat from the rest of the liquid first rather than from the bulb. This is not what you want.
As to what kind of liquids one might use is totally dependent on the environment in which the device operates, ambient temperature being the key factor.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on December 01, 2007, 12:24:15 AM
Quote from: FreeEnergy on November 27, 2007, 05:15:23 AM
Quote from: hansvonlieven on November 26, 2007, 06:12:20 PM
My answer was in response to a general statement made. The device contradicts this.
By using a liquid in the bird that volatilises below zero and if you used something other than water in the glass, yes it would.
Hans von Lieven
ok thanks, so what kind of liquid(s) would be good to use for the inside and outside of the bird?
also what do you think of sealing the bird inside a high ceiling container, and at the top have a sponge so that the liquid drips down back to the "drinking water"?
G'day Free,
I think this is what you want an answer for.
I'll answer the last question first. You only want a small amount of liquid to adhere to the top. The device relies on evaporation for its cooling effect. If you have surplus liquid there the surface of the liquid will evaporate and pull heat from the rest of the liquid first rather than from the bulb. This is not what you want.
As to what kind of liquids one might use is totally dependent on the environment in which the device operates, ambient temperature being the key factor.
Hans von Lieven
what liquid works best with temperature below zero if any?
First of all the question is why would you want to do it, and how low is the bottom temperature we are talking about.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on December 01, 2007, 12:38:23 AM
First of all the question is why would you want to do it, and how low is the bottom temperature we are talking about.
Hans von Lieven
why? because I'd like to keep the bird running.
we are talking about the lowest (below zero) temperature possible that we can work with.
Theoretically you could use liquid carbon dioxide or even liquid nitrogen but there would not be much point. You could still get it to work though but only very very slowly.
Remember the device is a HEAT engine. it relies on a liquid that evaporates at ambient and re-condenses say about 5 degrees lower.
At very low temperatures you have very little heat to work with and processes slow down accordingly until you reach absolute zero, at which point all molecular movement stops.
Heat is molecular hysteresis. The more movement, the hotter it gets.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on December 01, 2007, 12:51:02 AM
Theoretically you could use liquid carbon dioxide or even liquid nitrogen but there would not be much point. You could still get it to work though but only very very slowly.
Remember the device is a HEAT engine. it relies on a liquid that evaporates at ambient and re-condenses say about 5 degrees lower.
At very low temperatures you have very little heat to work with and processes slow down accordingly until you reach absolute zero, at which point all molecular movement stops.
Heat is molecular hysteresis. The more movement, the hotter it gets.
Hans von Lieven
very nice thanks.
so lets say i scale up a drinking bird (about 7-9 feet tall) using carbon dioxide or even liquid nitrogen (in regular room temperature), would that power up a laptop or a even a light bulb?
peace
p.s. hope your relative is doing much better.
You could not use liquid nitrogen or liquid carbon dioxide at room temperature, you would need an enormous amount of energy to cool it down to a liquid again.
As I said, you need a liquid that evaporates at ambient (in this case room temperature) and condenses again to a liquid say 5 to 10 degrees lower.
Hans von Lieven
and yes, she is getting better, probably able to go home next week. Thanks for asking.
Quote from: hansvonlieven on December 01, 2007, 01:15:08 AM
You could not use liquid nitrogen or liquid carbon dioxide at room temperature, you would need an enormous amount of energy to cool it down to a liquid again.
As I said, you need a liquid that evaporates at ambient (in this case room temperature) and condenses again to a liquid say 5 to 10 degrees lower.
Hans von Lieven
and yes, she is getting better, probably able to go home next week. Thanks for asking.
ok what liquid would be best for ambient temperature? i am really thinking of making a huge (7-9 feet tall) bird to power my laptop (hopefully).
Have a look at the Mintowheel forum on yahoo.
A mintowheel is essentially a rotary version of the dipping bird. The commonly used liquid is methylene chloride which is used because it does not burn. petroleum erher and hexane are also possible, so are a whole heap of other things. If you build the thing too big it will be very slow because a lot of liquid has to evaporate before the thing can tip over.
These devices are best kept small.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on December 01, 2007, 01:27:19 AM
Have a look at the Mintowheel forum on yahoo.
A mintowheel is essentially a rotary version of the dipping bird. The commonly used liquid is methylene chloride which is used because it does not burn. petroleum erher and hexane are also possible, so are a whole heap of other things. If you build the thing too big it will be very slow because a lot of liquid has to evaporate before the thing can tip over.
These devices are best kept small.
Hans von Lieven
thanks