where I live the water will freeze during the winter. How can I prevent that?
I'm not sure if using anti-freeze to the water would enhance or hinder the electrolysis process.
I Don't believe anybody tried using those blue toilet thingy's to keep the unit clean either :)
I guess this is a problem that most of will be facing at some stage... I wonder what old Meyer's answer to this was?
Anyway, in the old days of wet electrolytic capacitors, they prevented the electrolyte from freezing by adding 30% ethylene glycol, otherwise known as everyday car anti-freeze.
Obviously their capacitors were not designed to function as our wfc, but I would expect this anti-freeze to be fairly stable and inactive otherwise they would have had issues with plate contamination or gases given off.
It might be useful to find out how the manufacturers of 'hydroboosters' get around this problem.
I'm personally some way off worrying about this yet, but hopefully that time will come.
Interesting...so they did use anti-freeze after all.
Now I guess...was the mixture still drinkable afterward, wood be the burning...or not so burning question, as the case may be?
Apparently somebody has yet to try the 'blue brick' technique tho :)
Sorry Capz, lost me again.
Why would you want to drink the water in the electrolyser?
I've been pondering freezing as well, it is well below freezing where I live and the cell I'm putting together is to be used as a booster in my vehicle :( Guess I'll have to play around with different anti-freeze components and post what I find.
Does anyone know of bad/corrosive fumes coming out of these anti-freeze components?
As I said above they used to use ethylene glycol in wet electrolytic capacitors and they would certainly have had problems if dangerous fumes were generated in use.
However, as we will have current flow through the cell and water ionising, there might well be reactions not specifically recorded anywhere that we have to be mindful of.
Guess it will be suck-it-and-see!
Yep, just do it. Guess I'm in a good position to test the theory.
Have a nice day.
Alcohol can be used to stop the freezing in water?
where I live the water will freeze during the winter. How can I prevent that?
Water in a glass, toilet, bath tub, pond ????
People around here that have fish ponds put in a bubbler. As long as the water is moving it will be harder to freeze.
Quote from: MrMag on December 04, 2007, 08:48:10 PM
where I live the water will freeze during the winter. How can I prevent that?
Water in a glass, toilet, bath tub, pond ????
People around here that have fish ponds put in a bubbler. As long as the water is moving it will be harder to freeze.
My guess is that it would not be very efficient to agitate water in a car while it sits dormant.
Looking up the properties of an electrolyte such as Potassium Hydroxide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_hydroxide
We see that it has a saturation point in water of 1.0 grams KOH able to dissolve in only 0.5 grams of water.
The freezing point depression of water can be calculated from the molal freezing point constant for water which is defined as:
Kf = 1.86 ?C - kg. water
Moles Solute
So if we make a Table with the calculated values for the freezing point depression of water as Potassium Hydroxide is added we get the following:
%KOH in Water Freezing Point (?C) Freezing Point (?F)
0 0.0 32.0
10 -3.7 25.4
20 -8.3 17.1
30 -14.2 6.4
40 -22.1 -7.8
50 -33.1 -27.7
Once you start getting above 40% KOH in water the viscosity of the solution starts to increase and that is why I stopped at 50% solids.
Theoretically the saturation point of KOH in water is 1.5grams KOH will dissolve in 0.5 grams of water. Calculating that freezing point depression we get a freezing point of:
(1.86?C ? kg water) (1.0 grams KOH) ( 1 mole KOH) = -66.3?C
( Moles KOH) (0.0005 kg water) ( 56.1 g. KOH)
Which is -87?F. Of course this is theoretical and doesn't take into account solubility changes at lower temperatures. I think the water would be of such high viscosity it would barely move, but it does show how salt based electrolyte can lower the freezing point of water on its own.
Axuelly, I was just kidding about the 'blue toilet brick' - and about drinking the water from the electrolyser...and now I hear people drink the water from the 'joe cell'.
Go figure huh :)
I think some type of alcohol would be best. But your cell can't get hot or the alcohol would boil off and be burnt in the engine. This wouldn't be an issue for the engine but you would have to replace the alcohol everytime you shut off your vehicle.
Ethanol boils around 172F, 78C and methanol 147F,64C. Windshield washer fluid is mostly alcohol, HEET is methanol, some fuel stations sell ethanol (don't know the percents.)
Thanks guys...I'll have a go at testing your ideas once I get my cell built and conditioned. May be a while before I'm finished due to schedule, blah blah...
Do you suppose there's any way to store enough solar energy to heat the water? Without making my car a rolling solar panel that is.
Maybe some heat tape? like the kind you use in houses for wrapping water lines up north to keep them from freezing? I don't know if you can get something like that in a 12v. or, maybe a heater like they used for heating oil in engine blocks way north?
In
Thanks FREeENY, I can see how that will help with the freezing problem. I don't know why you deleted your post though.
I've been doing even more searching on these boosters. here they give a way for to solve the freezing prob. http://www.fuelfromh2oofarkansas.com/
I've read in an article that they take 2 month's to cleans the engine, whatever that means, to see the increase in MPG. are engine's really that dirty? This was not for MagDrive it was for HFI.