I know what you are thinking. I have posted in the wrong topic and that this should be moved to the Electrolysis section. What this post concerns, though, is what I think Stan was hiding or leaving out of his patents, videos, or any documentation that I have found, is a piezoelectric element inside the negative cathode tube or plate. So, in essence, the inner tube would be an electrode/transducer. I am currently researching piezoelectric materials for use in my next experiments in hopes of confirming my gut feeling that Stan used cavitation and electrolysis to get the amounts of gasses he was producing.
A small reference I found in US patent 4798661, FIG. 7. Described as... "a crossectional perspective of a multiple layer sandwich resistive element for inhibiting electron leakage". He also states... "In this embodiment of the current inhibitor connected to the inner plate having the negative voltage applied thereto, comprises a stainless steel sandwich with a resistive material therebetween. The stainless steel is a poor conductive material and hence will restrict to some extent the electron flow. Other poor conductive material may be used in lieu of the stainless steel. The electron inhibitor is connected in the same manner as resistor, between the inner plate having the negative potential connected to it and ground. The resistive value of the electron inhibitor is chosen empirically to a closest value, thereafter the total value of the resistance is fine tuned by the resistor connected serially between the inner plate and ground. To alter the resistive value of the electron inhibitor, the resistive material comprising a mixture with a binder is altered in the percentage of resistive material to binder."
What an odd way to add resistance, don't you think? He calls it an "electron inhibitor" and not a resistor. This puzzled me for a long time until I learned the fundamentals of sonochemistry and cavitation. In a nutshell, we can vibrate liquids at ultrasonic speeds to get a desired affect only achievable at certain frequencies and/or multiples of frequencies such as harmonics and polyphonic tones. Cavitation is partly the fracturing of the molecules caused by the vibration. Today we use this technology in devices such as ultrasonic cleaners and chemical reaction chambers for mixing and increasing chemical reactions up to a million fold.
Now, the question next for me was, "What is electrolysis?".
e?lec?trol?y?sis [i-lek-trol-uh-sis, ee-lek-] ?noun
Physical Chemistry. the passage of an electric current through an electrolyte with subsequent migration of positively and negatively charged ions to the negative and positive electrodes.
Well, if it's well known that cavitation can increase chemical reactions up to a million fold, then, why not electrolysis? It's a chemical reaction. Let's look into this a little further...
A piezoelectric ceramic element exposed to an alternating electric field changes dimensions cyclically, at the frequency of the field. The frequency at which the element vibrates most readily in response to the electrical input, and most efficiently converts the electrical energy input into mechanical energy -- the resonance frequency -- is determined by the composition of the ceramic material and by the shape and volume of the element.
As the frequency of cycling is increased, the element's oscillations first approach a frequency at which impedance is minimum (maximum admittance). This frequency also is the resonance frequency. As the frequency is further increased, impedance increases to a maximum (minimum admittance), which also is the anti-resonance frequency. These frequencies are determined by experiment
This explains why Stan was getting parallel LC resonance characteristics out of a series LC circuit. In his earlier designs, the use of the VIC was not yet implemented which proves the chokes are not as important as some believe. It's the old trick of watching the right hand while the left hand does the work unseen. He wants you to think it's all in the circuitry when in fact it's in the cell.
When ever you see a video of Stan describing how the "Water Fuel Cell" worked, he would always say: "Let the voltage do the work." Any of you out there whom have experimented with electrolysis of water painstakingly know that more voltage causes more current to flow. It's a catch22. By simply utilizing piezoelectric materials in a proper configuration, we can achieve, very easily, high levels of voltage and still only consume about 500 mA.
Having all this and more in mind, I am at the point of devising a inexpensive and readily available material for use as a piezoelectric material. I have found many pre-manufactured elements but what I am truly looking for is what Stan may have used with his so called binder. One possibility would be to use corona dope mixed with quartz powder. I know very little in this area, so, please, if you have any pertinent information about how to go about building my own piezoelectric material, let me know. Quartz seems to be the best choice for it's properties and low cost. It would also seem rather difficult to cut a perfect fit solid crystal into a tube.
enough writing for now, back to research. Thanx for reading my post and any comments you might have. Cheers!
Heairbear
It is a good idea to mix conventional electrolysis with ultrasonics.
I found a couple nearly relavant links and look forward to your results.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oNZcLyCR_Q
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/jmsc/1998/00000033/00000011/00339017;jsessionid=1ep9zh54lqhet.alexandra
Just of the top of my head,
As to the material Stan might have used only three come readily to mind, Cane sugar, Rochelle salt and zinc oxide. All three are piezoelectric. Since cane sugar and Rochelle salt are water soluble that really only leaves zinc oxide as a likely contender.
Hope this helps
Hans von Lieven
Interesting idea
Have a look at wikipedia on piezo electricity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity#High_voltage_and_power_sources
A lot of interesting info, like electric lighters using piezo electric crystal to obtain high voltages and resulting sparks....
Thank you Hans and oystla!
oystla, you are the first person to actually read something about this technology and comment on it to me. I have been talking to others about it and they all think I'm out of my mind. Or, at least that is the impression I get. You made my day with that link. Thank you!
Hans, do you have any more info on zinc oxide? I've looked around and didn't find much and I thought maybe you might have a secret stash of links to some good reading.
Thanks again and have a great day!
HI all,
@HB
Keeley got OU using a Quarts Xtal in series with a hand wound TX a res. and a cap.. driven by a near audio vari. freq generator. The problem is the Tx core material (barium something someting)
he used has been made unavailable by the company that made it. Thanks DOD (sarc..)
The quarts Xtal was $25 from a Tex. comp. I'de try a Tweeter disc. Mabee break off a piece till you get reasonance.
When I read those Keeleys E-Mails 3 years ago it inspired me because I've always believed electronics has secrets that could put energy vendors above ground and we could be Jetsons, not Flintstones burning fossil fart ruining beautiful earth.
Thinking it was around 43khz? Fascinating!
DGM
I was about 40% right.
Heres what I read 3y ago.Check this out.
http://www.rexresearch.com/mra/1mra.htm
Good old Rex, Thanks Rex!
Cheers
Thanks Laserrod for that great info! That link answered a lot of my questions. Have you done any experimentation in this field of research? If you were doing this 3 years ago, I can only imagine what you know now. Talk to me, I'm all ears.
I bought a piezoelectric cylinder that measures 26mm OD, 22mm ID, and 13mm high. The resonant frequency of the element is 43Khz. The problem now is finding T304 close to 26mm ID to attach the element. Any ideas?
HairBear
HairBear,
Wasn't ignoring U, just forgot to check this thread!
I've been researching but no buildingyet .
Just use 2 part epoxy and pipe fitings?
I'm building some green & blue lasers and a rotating magnetic field device now.
Resonance of air coils and sparkgaps are on the priority list too.
Your welcome BTW!
Cheers
Edit:
T304? I'd just use any ol toriod around, find one that works.
I also thought the same thing with meyers cell , but found out its nothing more than what keely found out ages ago .. with resonance he was able to break water
i always thought stainless and other things in its most elemental form were salts and piezo's ...i am currently working on my magnetic motor from ed's coral castle
a piezoelectric generator
stan meyers using keely's work
There is some similar work taking place with quartz, rochelle salts, and piezo electric at
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=972.new;topicseen
Don
I dont think Stan Meyers got his over unity with the electrolysis. Look up the spark plug that he was using and then look up mono-atomic hydrogen.
I'm not trained in this area, but I had a similar thought last night after reading reports on Meyer's work, google them and found you folks.
Question: Is it possible that Meyer was using sonics to "stress" the bonds making it easier to split them via a secondary method like standard electrolysis? What would happen if you stress the bonds via sonics and had a tesla-like discharge near the transducer creating the sonic pulse? If the bonds were already under stress how much additional energy would be required to split them, especially near the transducer?
I read last night that water had a resonant frequency of 45.8 khz.
have we considered the resonant frequency of the actual tubes themselves?
it would seem that a peizo would not be necessary under this analysis.
Stan Meyer's Water Fuel Cell Technical brief is located here, for anyone who wants to read it. It's quite detailed and may provide more clues to his technology. Just scroll down until you see,
Stanley A. Meyer, 1995. Water Fuel Cell - Technical Brief. I'd attach it here but it's too large
http://www.theorionproject.org/en/research.html
Regards
Steve
If you are interested in a water fuel cell, you might find the work that Jim Hunt (309-734-0452) in Galesburg, Ill is doing.....Jim Hunt <cscinventorsclub@hotmail.com>
Below is an old link; but it will provide the basics.
http://www.registermail.com/stories/111007/MAI_BESD12VP.GID.shtm
add an "L" to the end of the above link
that's actually a pretty interesting story there......
anyone out there with a whimhurst, that could run a few preliminary tests ?
pulsed "lightning" electrolysis AKA Plasmatic Induction
canada765, welcome to overunity.com and I for one thank you for the link you pervided. It does indeed shed more light on how Stan was able to produce enough hydrogen to power a cumbustion engine as well as other fuel burning applications.
I was wondering why people were not pulsing the current supplied to their cells. This is said to be very crucial in the splitting of hydrogen from water. Not only does it provide a higher voltage but it also helps keep the cells cooler. Also it must be known that pulsing currents also have back EMF's and or collasping feilds that can be utilized.
I for one have been against the burning of any fuel but this link you provided makes me think twice about it. Thnk you again for proving us with that link.
Conditining of tube is must and really it improves output, I tried with 302 SS tubes for 7 days in tap water some thimes calcium hydroxide mixed
CFL White Coating- I dont know much about chemestry Please explain water to hydroxyl radicals
Hydrooxyl is same as HHO ?? ???
Another variation on existing CFL technologies are bulbs with an external nano-particle coating of "titanium dioxide".
Titanium dioxide is a photocatalyst, becoming ionized when exposed to UV light produced by the CFL.
It is thereby capable of converting oxygen to ozone and water to hydroxyl radicals,
which neutralize odors and kill bacteria, viruses, and mold spores.
Can anyone answer the following?
Suppose you were to use 1000w to make Brown's gas. Will using the 1000w over a time period (e.g. 10 minutes) produce the same amount of gas as compared to using all of the 1000w in a burst?
Quote from: trog601 on April 28, 2008, 03:23:04 PM
Can anyone answer the following?
Suppose you were to use 1000w to make Brown's gas. Will using the 1000w over a time period (e.g. 10 minutes) produce the same amount of gas as compared to using all of the 1000w in a burst?
no.
you can actually configure that 1Kw in several ways and each will have it's own performance rating for the particular electrolyzer being used. the key is to find the optimal performance voltage/current for your electrolyzer set-up.
in most devices low voltage / high curent produces the most gas for the total power consumption. but i have seen some that perform better at low voltage / low current over a longer time = more gas for total power input.
so, i would say its device dependent.
Here is a new type of electrode!
I copied from EE times
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Startup QuantumSphere Inc. has claimed that its nanoparticle coatings could make hydrogen easy to produce at home from distilled water, which can bring the cost of hydrogen fuel cells in line with that of fossil fuels.
The company says it has perfected the manufacture of highly reactive catalytic nanoparticle coatings that could increase the efficiency of electrolysis, the technique that generates hydrogen from water. Moreover, the coatings could also eliminate the need for expensive metals like platinum in hydrogen fuel cells.
Boasting 1,000 times the surface area of traditional materials, the coatings can be used to retrofit existing electrolyzers to increase their efficiency to 85 percent?exceeding the U.S. Department of Energy's goal for 2010 by 10 percent. The scheme holds the promise of 96 percent efficiency by the time cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells hit automobile showrooms, according to the company.
"Instead of switching 170,000 gas stations over to hydrogen, using our electrodes could enable consumers to make their own hydrogen, either in the garage or right on the vehicle," said Kevin Maloney, president, CEO and co-founder of QuantumSphere. "Our nanoparticle-coated electrodes make electrolyzers efficient enough to provide hydrogen on demand from a tank of distilled water in your car."
Nano-coated batteries
The first commercial product inspired by QuantumSphere's technology will debut later this year. A battery using a cathode coated with the startup's nanoparticles offers increased energy density 5x over alkaline cells and power by 320 percent. The first commercial non-rechargeable batteries with this increased capacity will be announced by an as-yet-unnamed major U.S. battery maker in 2H 08.
QuantumSphere also claims to be able to improve rechargeable nickel-metal-hydride batteries to the point where they perform better than the less environmentally friendly Li-ion batteries popular today.
The startup plans to first retrofit existing electrolysis equipment with its nanoparticle electrodes to boost efficiency. Next, it intends to partner with original equipment manufacturers to design at-home and on-vehicle electrolyzers for making hydrogen from water for fuel cells. Finally, the company wants to work with fuel cell makers to replace their expensive platinum electrodes with inexpensive stainless-steel electrodes coated with nickel-iron nanoparticles.
QuantumSphere's nanoparticles are available in four formulations: nickel cobalt, iron cobalt, nickel iron and silver copper. According to the Freedonia Group Inc., the nanoparticles can be sold directly into the catalyst metals market, which it predicts will edge up to $4.7 billion this year.
QuantumSphere is also expected to have an impact on the battery market, which Freedonia estimates will grow to more than $5 billion by 2009. Portable fuel cells and direct hydrogen generation are markets that are growing even faster, with fuel cells estimated to top $11 billion by 2013, according to Wintergreen Research Inc., and hydrogen generation to exceed $15 billion by 2016, according to Clean Edge Inc.
Nanoparticle project
QuantumSphere was founded in 2002 with just $100,000 of private funding and still has not taken in any venture capital, although it did have a public funding round last year. The company's founding goal was to create a thimble full of the nanoparticles it invented. But now, just over five years later, it claims to have surpassed its original goal with a manufacturing plant capable of producing tons of nanoparticles per year.
QuantumSphere claims its current manufacturing capacity is enough for both the battery and electrolysis markets. With an eye on future growth, however, the company has partnered with the OM Group Inc. for mass-producing nanoparticles when QuantumSphere can no longer meet demand.
After perfecting the original invention, for which QuantumSphere was awarded a patent last year, the company hired an engineering team to adapt the nanoparticles for particular applications. Leading that team was director of fuel cell research Kimberly McGrath, a prot?g? of George Olah, the 1994 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry. Olah, inventor of the direct liquid-methanol fuel cell, serves as a scientific adviser to QuantumSphere.
"We have formulated a nanoparticle coating that has a very high surface area, enabling inexpensive coated stainless-steel electrodes to exceed the performance of the expensive platinum electrodes used today," said McGrath. "We start with raw material that covers about the size of a sheet of paper, but after converting into nanoparticles, it covers a soccer field."
The nanoparticles are perfect spheres, consisting of a couple hundred atoms measuring from 16nm to 25nm in diameter. They are formed by means of a vacuum-deposition process that uses vapor condensation to produce highly reactive catalytic nanoparticles, for which the engineering team has formulated several end-use applications.
"Our biggest engineering challenge was finding a way to get the nanoparticles to stick to metal electrodes," McGrath said. The company has solved that problem, she said, "enabling existing electrolysis equipment to realize a 30 percent increase in hydrogen output just by retrofitting our coated electrodes."
QuantumSphere projects that the efficiency of electrolysis using its nanoparticle-coated electrodes, now at 85 percent, can be increased to 96 percent by the time hydrogen fuel cell automobiles are in wide use. Adjusting for rising gasoline prices, QuantumSphere projects that performing electrolysis at home to power hydrogen fuel cells will be less expensive than burning fossil fuels.
The company has also made progress in its quest to eliminate the need for expensive platinum electrodes inside the fuel cell itself, claiming that today it can replace half a fuel cell's platinum with nanoparticle-coated stainless steel. QuantumSphere hopes to demonstrate fuel cells with no platinum at all in the coming years.
- R. Colin Johnson
Bottom line: electrode the size of 8.5*11 area expands to a football field surface area!
i think what he is describing as an "electron inhibitor" is in all actuality - a low quality, home-made semiconductor.
like a "doped" non-conductor (binder). to make it partially conductive/capacitive, backing up the pipeline if you will. Standard analysis tells us that the voltage will fluxuate. Current - set to a constant by the resistive factor - the voltage will build up to a break-down point, conduct to the next portion of the "inhibitor material" and drop, thne build back up. so the output freq. will be a very high frequency signal with any productive current draw.
The frequency is determined by the current
as well as other factors involved in the mixture of poor-conductor + binder
the binder is most likely a non-conductive adhesive of sorts.... would be my guess
consistency between devices with this type of semiconductor is highly unreliable. This is why millions of dollars are spend growing crystals into perfection.
This inherent flaw is probably why he includes the additional resistive factor to bring the total resistance up to where he wants it to be. <<--- which i might add seems rather ingenious, and may have usefull application in semiconductor engineering.
the question i am left with is:: Is it the slowing-down ("inhibiting") of the electricity that causes the effect?
or is it the high-frequency produced by the electron inhibitor splitting the water?
all his technical garble in the patent is rediculous...
~~~~~~ < -- split your wave with a rectifier,. take the top half to one plate (+),
the bottom half to the other (-).
with variable pulses so you can adjust the freq.
[HV transformer would be nice, in my opinion, with adjustable center-tap ]
MOhm trim-pot to ground on each
plates seperated by water. distilled water if you are going for accurate production measurements..
if you just want to make some gas, ordinary water should do fine :)
woud be best to make a (non-conductive) mount for your plates, that allows you to fine-tune the spacing
then just sit there and adjust freq / V / R until you get the most gas.
why he needs an "electron inhibitor" i dont know.... probably to confuse people.
If you want a 2mm space, yur looking @ +/- 150Ghz ,, 5mm = +/- 60Ghz
I have abandon my tests with piezo materials due to the complexity and cost of the materials. The more I find about about the "demo cells", the more I see garage tech. Capacitor70 seems to have some good results with his work on the s1r replication and I would like to see that be successful. I will be taking a different approach to replicating Stan's demo cell with the alternator. So, I'm off to the bench again...
Again...
Stan Meyer experimenters kits for sale on ebay: item# 130239169501 http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Stanley-Meyer-experimenters-set_W0QQitemZ130239169501QQihZ003QQcategoryZ155062QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Quote from: HeairBear on July 14, 2008, 10:29:48 PM
I have abandon my tests with piezo materials due to the complexity and cost of the materials. The more I find about about the "demo cells", the more I see garage tech. Capacitor70 seems to have some good results with his work on the s1r replication and I would like to see that be successful. I will be taking a different approach to replicating Stan's demo cell with the alternator. So, I'm off to the bench again...
Again...
You are right on track and that is coming from someone that has done a year of full time research and spent tens of thousands of dollars. If you look at the center cell in Meyer's original cell, you see a clip hanging over the top. That is where the piezo device would have been sitting. Also, if the piezo was in series with the inner and outer tubes, it would in fact inhibit electron flow and voltage would all that would pass between the cell walls.
It is also possible that Meyer was using a spark gap located in the center cell to produce the ultrasonic energy. You first post regarding cavitation is more important to OU than you may know. In fact, I do not think it is possible to produce an OU device without cavitation since that is where the mass to energy conversion takes place - electron clustering as a result of the shockwave and then electron cascade as a result of the electron clusters exploding outward and then that electron cascade is the mass to energy conversion.
In Meyer's Canada patent, he patented underwater plasma electrolysis and in the notes you cited regarding semiconductive material is the piezo version - all the same thing. This would also explain how the cell could produce electricity since two conductors will have a charge form between them.
Me thinks that Stan was using a spark gap running at 42.8KHZ in that center tube.
Want more proof? Read Stans (pretending to be his twin brother) patent application where he starts out talking about how the tubes ring like bells. ;-) Nothing will produce a sharper ping than a spark gap and a solid state version of the m1s9??? whatever circuit (any high amp DC spark gap will do) would be the perfect way to produce that. Many high power lasers use a spark gap to fire also so that may be a source for a circuit.
Keep up the good work, you are on the right track.
Could anyone explain to me what would happen if you simply broadcast, at say 5 watts, the radio frequency of 45.8 khz right next to a plastic container filled with water while at the same time applying voltage to electrodes inside the water at the same time? Would not radio waves be able to destablize the water molecules just as sound waves can break glass when its resonance is reached?
Go easy on me. I'm just asking :)
Yes, google Kanzius...
Quote from: HeairBear on January 01, 2009, 11:49:59 PM
Yes, google Kanzius...
I took your lead and googled Kanzius. He is extracting hydogen on demand from ordinary sea water. He is not even electrofying the water or in other words, using a conventional electrollisis method with the radio waves. Radio waves alone are enough to liberate the hydrogen.
The only problem is, the efficiency is only around 70 percent in comparison to Faraday's equations.
Now, I will just bet that you can produce a radio signal with less electricity than the machine this guy was using.
Quote from: OscarMeyer on January 02, 2009, 02:15:21 PM
I took your lead and googled Kanzius. He is extracting hydogen on demand from ordinary sea water. He is not even electrofying the water or in other words, using a conventional electrollisis method with the radio waves. Radio waves alone are enough to liberate the hydrogen.
The only problem is, the efficiency is only around 70 percent in comparison to Faraday's equations.
Now, I will just bet that you can produce a radio signal with less electricity than the machine this guy was using.
well he is putting the hydrogen tank inside his radio wave machine and then back out and the water can be burned. not everything is converted to hydrogen directly and he is not applying energy over the whole time.
where do you got your 70 percent from?
The focus here seems to be on mixing
ultrasonic sound vibrations with a
standing voltage to perform the work,
but the story doesn't seem to end there.
Once liberated, the effect of vibration
still continues on the gases themselves.
Here is an example of what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUPE0Z9V82E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9cUgPdA_s
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Ohmasa_Gas_by_Japan_Techno_Co.%2C_Ltd.
Although Stanley used piezo elements
on the bottom of all of his tubes.
It may not have been only for the split,
but to condition the pairing afterwards.
The notch out of the outer pipe's top edge
like on a church's pipe organ's pipes to tune it
would raise the pitch to match the inners pipe's
naturally higher pitched resonance.
Thus making them a resonant cavity
where the gases are pairing off.
Please note that unlike the unstable gas pairs
from plain brute-force Faraday electrolysis
that seek to equalize with vengence,
and will explode when compressed.
The above gas can be stored, and the Hydrogen
doesn't leach through the storage container's walls.
Here is an explaination I bumped into.
Credit: Michael R. Himes
I think the hydrogen oxygen bond at nano scale
is augmented by sodium in the transition between
water and the Ohmasa Gas formation.
The electrolyte bond with hydroxyl is broken
at the gas formation boundary and retained
by the gas molecules because of the
nano sized bubbles affinity and charge polarity
at the transition to a gas.
A mass spectrum of the Gas may produce evidence
of hydroxyl in the Gas molecules equally bonded
to hydrogen and oxygen.
A check of the Ph of the water in the exhaust
would give an elevated acid level if this were true.
The increased molecular size may account for
stable storage because the container will not permit
passage of this large a molecule.