hey all
i recently bought a drinking bird. i think its quite a fascinating toy. sadly, its just a toy. i think it'd be exciting if a device made use of the drinking bird to work. i thought of making such a thing. however, i realised that the output of the system is very little. the drinking bird has very little energy. of this energy, only some of it is wasted and the remaining is used for its motion. this small amount of wasted energy is so little that (according to my research and calculation) is not enough to even light 1 miserable LED!
do u guys have any ideas or suggestions as to how the drinking bird's output can be increased ??? i considered changing teh size but it would probably need to be as big as the taj mahal just to light up a lamp! your help is greatly needed as this is an important project.
if you guys have ideas on how else to use the drinking bird, please post them here as well. i will be more than happy to discuss them with you.
thanks!
G'day nush-sing-smp and all,
Designs based on the principle of the drinking bird that are capable of extracting meaningful quantities of power are called Minto wheels.
There is a forum on Yahoo that works on this, http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MintoWheel/ otherwise search the net, you will find any number of designs.
On this page is is Wally Minto's version:
http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/minto.html
Hans von Lieven
thanks a lot hansvonlieven,
the minto's wheel is a good invention. however, my question is: if the minto's wheel requires some energy to move, by removin this energy for other purposes, the wheel will stop its movement due to lack of energy, will it not? a similar problem arises with the drinking bird.
another question: assuming there is a lot of extra energy that we can use, how do we harness it?
thanks, once again,
cheers
Good question..
Try adding some high protein mix in the water. Sugar might also work.
Sorry. I couldn't resist that!
Quote from: nush-sing-smp on February 07, 2008, 06:46:45 AM
thanks a lot hansvonlieven,
the minto's wheel is a good invention. however, my question is: if the minto's wheel requires some energy to move, by removin this energy for other purposes, the wheel will stop its movement due to lack of energy, will it not? a similar problem arises with the drinking bird.
another question: assuming there is a lot of extra energy that we can use, how do we harness it?
thanks, once again,
cheers
I am not sure you understand how this contraption works.
This is a simple heat - gravity motor. It uses heat differential to move a body of liquid into an elevated position after which gravity takes over to restore equilibrium, resulting in movement. The amount of torque generated is proportional to the height and weight of the displaced liquid. This energy is usable, minus friction losses of course. It will always be low power and slow rotation or movement.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on February 07, 2008, 04:22:30 PM
I am not sure you understand how this contraption works.
This is a simple heat - gravity motor. It uses heat differential to move a body of liquid into an elevated position after which gravity takes over to restore equilibrium, resulting in movement. The amount of torque generated is proportional to the height and weight of the displaced liquid. This energy is usable, minus friction losses of course. It will always be low power and slow rotation or movement.
Hans von Lieven
thanks for explaining about how the the torque affects the amount of energy generated. but by withdrawing energy from the system, there will no longer be a heat differential, am i right? unless, you mean that the energy can be withdrawed so as to result in a heat differential (cool one end by withdrawing energy). then, the pool of water will no longer be needed. or, the thermal properties of either of the containers on each tube can be changed so as to result in a heat differential (eg, painting one silver and the other black).
here is another thought that is a bit off-point, hilarious and maybe unproffessional too.
can a minto's wheel just be made of 2 long, thin hourglasses. give it a slight push initiually and the system will move in a cycle. of course, many factors other need to be considered to build something like this but, since it just just a brief thought, i have not considered them
The best toy Ive seen is one involving a swinging man and a magnet that does not allow a rest state....he swings all day long so proving perpetual motion is possible with the use of gravity/magnets....
You are probably better off using a Stirling engine.
Google: Stirling engine (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=stirling+engine&hl=en&sitesearch=)
@All
I found this giant drinking bird that looks like a scaled up version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ-zeRCUicw&feature=related
Another one doing some work (end of vid):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIjXg5fvvas
Its based on evaporation of water from the fuzzy head, so its going to consume the water in the bucket eventually, which is not too much of a problem.
So a good drying day would be best, but I imagine the output power is not going to be that great no matter how big you make it.
Its interesting as to how it works.
Regards
Rob
Quote from: mapsrg on February 09, 2008, 01:19:32 AM
The best toy Ive seen is one involving a swinging man and a magnet that does not allow a rest state....he swings all day long so proving perpetual motion is possible with the use of gravity/magnets....
Sorry mate, if that was real, Perpetual Motion would have been solved long ago.
There is a battery, an electromagnet and an electronic circuit in the base that makes this sucker swing. SORRY.
Hans von Lieven
Yeah, Hans is right. It's a very simple circuit, but electromagnetically induced motion nevertheless.
Interesting though, there seem to be many people who believe that type of toy is a perpetuum mobile...
so lets assume that the drinking bird or the minto's wheel were to produce a large amount of output, how do we harness it?! generators? won't they interfere with the engine's movement? piston? i dunno!!
OK I think I have your answer. You need to find Granny Clampet and get some of her recipe drink. That ought to do it. ;D
i believe a micro-sterling, as mentioned above, would produce more output per delta-T than the drinking-bird
using the same low-temp-boiling-point-fluid
the power will still be fairly small, because of the low difference in temperature, but you should observe an increase in efficiency.
You are right Smoky,
Not only is the Stirling engine the most efficient heat engine ever built it is the most efficient motor ever built.
The problem with the Stirling engine has always been its power output, not its efficiency.
The drinking bird and the Minto wheel will never be more than toys. They are nice to play with but from a practical angle useless devices.
Hans von Lieven
hans do you think a stirling engine alone could power a small home? if it was scaled-up to a bigger size? maybe a solar powered stirling or maybe a magnifying glass can help too or just build a small fire :)
is it worth it?
how can i build this with off the shelf parts? anyone want to help?
cool http://youtube.com/watch?v=BBZDJn6B0cs
Quote from: FreeEnergy on February 12, 2008, 05:05:00 AM
hans do you think a stirling engine alone could power a small home? if it was scaled-up to a bigger size? maybe a solar powered stirling or maybe a magnifying glass can help too or just build a small fire :)
is it worth it?
how can i build this with off the shelf parts? anyone want to help?
You certainly could power a small home, or a large one for that matter, with a Stirling motor and an alternator. At one time Stirling motors were mass produced and used on farms and in remote locations. They could not compete with internal combustion engines because of their size to performance ratio. Today they are used virtually only by the military and are powering submarines as well as generators. The military likes them because they run very quietly and with virtually no vibration.
There is one company that is producing a Stirling motor type generator http://www.whispergen.com/main/technology/ I don't know too much about them or what they charge for such a device.
As to building one yourself, you really would need a reasonably well equipped machine shop, off the shelf parts are really not suitable.
Hans von Lieven
QuoteAs to building one yourself, you really would need a reasonably well equipped machine shop, off the shelf parts are really not suitable.
what if i buy off the shelf parts and take my parts to a machine shop so they can do minor cutting and welding for me? shouldn't be too expensive, i just have to find the right parts, shouldn't be so difficult.
well, essentially you can make a low-temp engine with a sealed alimunum can on a shaft. your gas is in the can, and as you heat it from the bottom it rises up the shaft, cools down and the can comes back down,
just attach a crank assembly to the top of the can and there ya go.
they made these things in the 1800's
The drinking bird uses ambient temperature as the heat source and the wet bulb temperature as the heat sink. Draw a rankine cycle using these temperatures and you will have yourself a low temperature gradient heat engine. Very little power with cold exhaust air as a by product. Worst case is you will have an evaporative cooler that powers it's self. Familiar with OTEC, Think of it as a desert version. Hot desert air heating ammonia and pre-cooled evaporative air as the heat sink. Heat exchanger design will be an important factor. Good luck.
Quote from: FreeEnergy on February 13, 2008, 03:05:20 AM
QuoteAs to building one yourself, you really would need a reasonably well equipped machine shop, off the shelf parts are really not suitable.
what if i buy off the shelf parts and take my parts to a machine shop so they can do minor cutting and welding for me? shouldn't be too expensive, i just have to find the right parts, shouldn't be so difficult.
FreeEnergy
By off the shelf parts I assume that you are thinking of mostly internal combustion engine parts .
A normal internal combustion engine can't be easily converted into a sterling engine because a sterling requires one set of cylinders to follow another by 90 degrees .
If you apply heat to one set of cylinders it runs one way ........if you apply heat to the other it runs the other way .
The most practical way I can think of to make a sterling engine with internal combustion engine parts would be to use 2 engines ...... link the crankshafts together 90 degrees apart . You would heat one of the engines and cool the other
The heads from both motors could be thrown out
The heads would be replaced with manifolds
Each manifold would go to the corasponding cylinder(s) on the other engine .
Keep in mind that the sterling engine runs on the relative pressure difference in the different parts of the cycle .
If you want the engine to have high efficency you would need the manifold to have a high thermal storage ability .
The heat is actually shuttled back and forth between the hot cylinder and the heat storage in the manifold.
The most practical way that I can think of to build a manifold like this would be to design a manifold filled with aluminum or copper tubes.The inside of it would look similar to the inside of a catalitic converter
Heat exchangers could be built into both ends of the manifold
The factor that limits the power output of a sterling engine most is the ability to transfer heat in to it and out of it .
gary
low-temp boilingpoint fliud, in a can on a verticle shaft.
small heat source underneath.
fluid in can turns to steam, and lifts, raising a set of magnets to create one of THESE::
http://pesn.com/2008/02/19/9500471_Gravity_Lamp/ (http://pesn.com/2008/02/19/9500471_Gravity_Lamp/)
which then creates power on its way down, the fluid cools back into a liquid, falls down to the heat source and the cycle repeats.
Quote from: sm0ky2 on February 29, 2008, 12:47:01 AM
low-temp boilingpoint fliud, in a can on a verticle shaft.
small heat source underneath.
fluid in can turns to steam, and lifts, raising a set of magnets to create one of THESE::
http://pesn.com/2008/02/19/9500471_Gravity_Lamp/ (http://pesn.com/2008/02/19/9500471_Gravity_Lamp/)
which then creates power on its way down, the fluid cools back into a liquid, falls down to the heat source and the cycle repeats.
When a liquid turns to steam it does not lose mass. The drinking bird works because the mass shifts beyond the balance point. If I understand you correctly the can is sealed so the mass cannot shift.
The drinking bird can be made more efficient if the liquid can be shifted without turning it to steam as this will avoid the loss of the latent heat of vaporization.
at below-steam temperatures.
there is a liquid more dense than the surrounding air, and the can falls.
when this liquid heats it turns to steam and rises to the top of the can yes.
the heat causes the can to rise.
there are working motors that operate like this, using 50-gallon metal drums
and a small camp fire. the drums rise 20 feet into the air.