I have just joined overunity because i was fascinated with the Charles campbell power wheel, An idea that i think could actually work. But i am not a highly educated person and the ideas that may cause it to fail are not readily apparent to me. I have always been fascinated with perpetual motion and free energy and thought/think it is still very possible.
Now to the subject of my post, "Working gravity wheel ?"
Hypothetically
I just created a working wheel, I have no idea what it is and am not that savvy with many things. I start searching to see if i created something that already exists. I search the web, Youtube, Goggle, Yahoo and get directed form one place to the next but don't find anywhere a "WORKING" demonstration of a self spinning wheel.
I do however run across hundreds of posts/ letters and claims from people saying that they are just weeks/ minutes/ one more adjustment away from a working wheel and the battle for free energy is won.
I look at the post date, or the date the paper was written, or the time the video was posted and find that these claims are sometimes weeks,months and even years old.
Based upon my hypothetical working wheel I know that the idea is as simple and groundbreaking as the airplane wing. I comes to me so easily i assume that it must also be what everyone else is talking about. So why is it not here. Why do people make the claim just based on a concept. I assume that many people like to share their ideas so that others can learn from their failures and the forces of gravity can be used someday to better the human race.
BUT. the hypothetical creator of the device is poor as dirt. Would love to share it but does not want to die a poor man. Many have said that the money from interviews and lectures would more than bring riches. But what would the creator do if he was not that type of person that was going to travel the world explaining the concept. What if he didn't have the education. What then, also if the idea is as simple as the Lift applied to a wing, once announced everyone will announce of course, we knew that all along, it obvious now. Scientists and scholars will quickly descend upon it improving and modifying the idea and the initial inventor will be forgotten.
My question which may have been answered so feel free to redirect me but, if everyone is weeks/minutes away then what happened to the wheel ? Where are they?
Also.
If anyone is the first to figure out the Secret to harnessing gravitational pull to create repeatable oscillation of a wheel that creates torque and is sustainable. How do they get credit for it. ? Bessel left so many vague statements about his supposed wheel that any thing that is round and spins could be called a Bessler wheel. But is it really?. Anyone who discovers a wheel would want the wheel to be there wheel. How does that happen?
@Dgraphic911
Hypothetically:
If you are able to present a working Wheel,thats nice.
But if you want to get big profit out of it,there is no chance!
You told us to be not highly educated.No Problem with that.
Also most very high skilled ones are not able to convert there ideas i a working model.
Because you have to manage a Produktion circuit.
Than you have to find or build a marketing prossedure.
You will have new best friends Friends very soon,as never happend bevore.
But better not to look out for Partners.Corse they want to make there own
profit and mostly they are not interestet to move just one finger without to be payed
in shares or other needs.
Sorry,but i can give you not a good outlook.
In your place,i would just open source it with my name and if there are pics or docs,put a date on it.
So if it will work as you believe,you might be the one ,
who get the OU price,and be known as the hero guy,who saves the world.
It is yust my opinion.
Because:
Many Posters will call you a fraud,bevor you finnished the last instruktion to build one.
If some replikations do not work,the call you a liar.And you will feel as a target.
So what you need first,is nerves as strong as steel ropes.
Yust read the several Forums about small projekts.
Many inventors leave after a view days and do not show up anymore.
Burned Hopes are left. Thats it.
helmut
@Dgraphic911
I can understand your apprehensions. Here you will get constructive critisism, mixed with some unrealistic optimmism mixed with a dash of ridicule, all mashed together to give you a god enough idea on if your idea is good or not.
As for holding rights, etc., I posted the following some time ago and am now working on my version 2 with a plastic wheel. The thread is relevant also.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3070.msg45101.html#msg45101
Anyone in the world can now use it as they please to modify and improve. It almost turns on its own as is.
So everything will depend on what your idea is. If it is to change an already existing design by 1/2 a degree, then obviously don't expect major applause, but if the idea is so great that it breaks the barriers of known gravity constrainst, then expect to be recognised. You may not like it, and you may even run from the attention, but that is your choice. Noone made a rule saying the maker of free energy will have a degree from Dale Carnegie. You are who you are and your idea is your idea. Posting it here will only solidify that fact.
I do not have a working wheel. Sorry, But .
If their is burried treasure under a spot on a piece of ground, and for hundreds on years people walk past it. And they all say its here somewhere. Then when the person who actually discovers the treasure. Should they "not expect major applause" just because everyone else was so close. Is close really good enough that they can then take credit.
It will most likely be a wheel, so does everyone who said its a wheel get to say "i was right" "i was almost done"
I did not start this thread to be a antagonist so i hope if it continues that it is not taken that way. Also i want to correct my first post that says i believe Chas's invention to work. I believe his Generator /motor combination to be a working concept of Over Unity. And i applaud him and others that are using it to further efficiency of eletricity. I do not believe his gravity wheel works/ AT ALL.
The thought behind my post was, I can see why it may already exist and someone said forget it, I also can see why it did not catch on/purchsed in the 1700's or earlier.
@wattsup
Thank you for the redirect, I applaud your efforts and money spent on the pursuit. I looked at your design and would like to interject a laymans opinion. If its not to presumptious of me. I noticed you said in your text that it almost spun. I don't see how going from almost spinning to spinning will then be a multiplyer of torque enough to create any useable force.
I noticed a video on YOUTube of a piece of bismuth so small that its diamagnetic properties allowed it to be repelled by 100lb +_ pull neo magnet. it would repell and fall perpetually. But useless, since any scaling of the bismuth makes it to heavy to be pushed. I amy be misunderstanding that, so if i'm wrong sorry.
Forgive me if i use the wrong names of actions within items.
Also
I have questions, and maybe some answers, i just need to make sure i'm not a moron before i make my opinions known. I wanted to start this thread so that a timeline would be establised.
@Dgraphic911
There are two realms, one is perpetual motion (such as my wheel endeavors), the other is free energy. You can have perpetual motion without being able to provide free energy simply because one side will be a tad heavier then the other providing the transfer of energy from one side to the other in a continuous basis. At least that is the goal. Yes it is impossible to do, but 100 years ago, so was going to the moon. lol
The other and in my view the most important realm is that of free energy which occupies probably 80% of the efforts on this board. Here the sky is the limit. You can produce from 1 watt over unity to 1 million watts. It does not matter. As long as it is not using an outside "known" source like catching radio waves, etc., or feeding off the stray energy of a high voltage hydro electric transmission lines.
I personally find the first realm to be much more relaxing since it is more motion intuitive and there is no intention to produce anything but continuous motion and if you fail, you are still left with a nice piece of modern art. lol
The later realm is the big one, the one that the world needs to survive the next 1000 years. Anyways back to your dilemma.
Listen, anyone would love to be paid for an idea. If your idea is so good, then you really have to give it a name, make some drawings to show exactly what and why the idea is so great. If you post it here and some industry decides to take it and start making whatever with it, there is nothing to prevent such a company or companies from paying you indirectly a portion of earnings as a royalty. I'm a businessman myself and if I took someones idea here and made systems and sold them, you can be sure I would keep a portion for the main man. Many here would.
The other alternative, given that I understand you do not have the financial capability to make the device and patent it, you can print out what is called an NCND (Non Circumvention and Non Disclosure document) or a simple confidentiality contract, and with such a contract you can contact directly some of the local industries in your area. Ask them to sign the contract so this protects you, then show them the idea and see if they would be willing to partner with you to make it a reality. They would provide the main development skills and finances required and you would work with them as an outside partner. Some could even pay you while to assist in the development since companies can write this off in their expenses.
So there are choices. The simplest choice is open source and let the market look after it as it may. The other is industry and that requires more sophisticated protections and much more leg work on your part.
The bottom line is, you can have an idea, and not have the means to bring it, to fruition. But the basic no nonsense method is, make it and sell it. Forget the protections, cause the people that will try to steal your idea will do it either way. Just make it, and sell it. The more people who make it and sell it, the more chances you will have of getting something back as the main man. Some will say no, others will be more then happy to put a percentage aside for you. The more people that start, the more you can expect to make.
@ wattsup,
thank you for being the only one who will humor the new guy ! I'm sure most expect the new dreamers to show up with a bunch of old ideas and then just fade away like a bad dream. I do not believe that to be my case. I have had a vision and am going to see it through. I bet that's what they all say. I have always had visions of things that work in my head but never had the time. Now i do :(
Since you have enjoyed playing with "the Unachievable" over the years if you would allow me to bother you with some ideas. I have a very simple one that i am working on that came to me in a vision. it should not take months to complete, actually should be done in days. Its my own idea and seems to be pretty origional. But i'll save that half baked idea for after i fail at it to share with everyone.
Some of the ideas that get shown are somewhat complicated to produce and the Drafting programs some people are using are amazing.
One idea that came to me last night, I'm sure everyday someone has a brand new thought that everyone else has had 10 times before but.
WHAT IF?
I have 2 wheels, just rims, if we assume the overall height of our wheel to be 24" lets say the outer wheel has the diameter of 24" OD and 22"ID ,and the inner wheel has the OD of 21" and the ID of 19". If both of the wheel were separeted by rollers, then when the outside wheel rotated clockwise the inner would rotate counter (i think) .
If the Weights travel from 12oclock to 6 oclock on the outside wheel and then up the inside wheel from 6 back to 12 on the same side. The inner wheel stays stationary and the outer spinsAlso the outer never has balls on the left. It would seem to me that the inner wheel would have less travel and require less leverage to carry less balls. If their was always one more ball (continuous chain of balls) on the outside it would cause it to spin. Maybe.
This protoype would require much more machining than i can accomplish just to find that my hypothesis if way off. Let me know how many times this has been suggested. And why it fails, if you don't mind.
@Dgraphic911
Yes we all think we are right with our ideas. But usually you should test the idea on paper by at least turning the design every 2-3 degrees for at least 45 degrees.
But from what I can understand with your idea, to change the weight from outer to inner you will still require energy to lift it up there, and chances are this energy will not be available. I would need more details though to see if it can hold up.
From experience, it is not possible to create such a wheel if there is only one thing happening. One transfer from outer to inner, one ball moving from left to right, one shift of left to closer center, etc. There has to be more off-events created during the complete turn and each event cuts away at the normal non-momentum for such wheels that eventually want to just stop at a balanced position. The more events you can create the better. The simple one slide schemes don't work.
But in all cases, before you build, make drawings as mentioned above, and check each position from the center line. If at each 2-3 degree angle, you are always more on the right, this has the best chance.
The main point in any wheel system is the wheel itself. IT MUST BE PERFECTLY BALANCED without the shifting weights. If this is not done, then the off-balance of the wheel will slowly eat away at any momentum the weights shifting can build up. Remember that when you draw your design, the wheel is perfect and the axle is dead center. But when the wheel is made, even with a cad design and cut with an automated water jet machine, the wheel WILL NOT be balanced. Then each weight has to be weighed to make sure they are all equal. Taking 8 billiard balls and thinking they are all the same will not work. Make sure they are.
Lastly some designs use gears, smaller wheels, etc., and each one of these will also eat away at the overall momentum. This is hard to see in the drawing itself since we will have the tendency to see the drawing working in our minds and not consider the surface tensions of the wheels, the tension of gears, etc. Even the pitch of a gear tooth can make or brake a design.
Thank you, your a gentleman.
Its tough to decide who is actually here to help and who is here to discourage and "borrow from others " after telling them their ideas don't work. I have noticed some people will put down an idea in the original post only to repost several weeks later with "hey i just thought"
Are there any members located in the North Eastern US, how would i find this out?
Dgraphic911
This is a fun game, but with hopes of a serious outcome. To get with other people to help you, try to find one you can trust and that is not easy. I am studying to help others from one of the old timers in this game by the name of Ralph Rlortie. He is my Mentor and I am learning to help others by being there Mentor. I have one talented man that I work with in France at this time, but with out permission his name will remain unspoken. secrecy is very important and ideas will remain only between those agreed upon. This is the type of relation that will help the best in my opinion, and limit it to 2 or 3 per group to share ideas with and keep all correspondence, encase one of your group tries to take credit without the others.
I have full trust in Ralph and my friend in France, but I don't share ideas between them, nor will I mix them without the permission from the other. This is the way to work and keep clear separate folders.
I hope this will help you in your quest.
Sorry but the design will not work like wattsup said. If you use the system to power itself that will not work. You need to look out of the box to find the answer. But it's a nice try. keep up the good work.
OK i quit then, thanks, i only lasted a week. Best of luck with the introduction of your working wheel. ;)
Have anyone of your considered using mathematical optimization (solution finder) techniques to find the best wheel arrangement with the given constraints (mass of wheel, number of balls, mass of balls)? Of course, for optimization to work you have to come up with a generalized formulation of a wheel. Well, the wheel itself and the balls have a pre-defined form, but the form of "guides", and their number can vary a lot. This is what should take the most work. Intuitively this can be easy, but it won't be optimal. Only computer-aided optimization can yield good results (this is how computer fans are designed now after exhausting man's own ability). One general optimization method that can have such complex problem resolved is "digital evolution" algorithm which is close to DNA evolution in formulation. You need to express several "free variables" that this algorithm can adjust, and a function that calculates "cost" of the wheel based on free variables (obviously the most optmial wheel will have the lowest "cost"). After a good set of "free variables" for the wheel is found, you can include a "test sequence" inside the "cost" function that, for example, processes several cycles of the wheel doing a physical simulation. Then, after performing some calculations, you may calculate the "cost". If the wheel does not even rotate during simulation, its "cost" is close to infinite.
basic physics games like armadillo run can be great for prototyping a design, but when you get a design that works (i have 2 distinct designs so far that spin forever, can be held in place for a minute and then released, or even spun in the opposite direction by dropping a weight onto it, and when those weights drop off the wheel, it IMMEDIATELY reverses direction), you realize that there is a chance you are exploiting a glitch in the low-level simulation engine used.
i guess ill go ahead and post the armadillo run level, so anyone with that game can view the design. id use fraps but i dont have any experience with that program. if anyone else wants to post a video in avi or other format feel free.
note: I DESPERATELY WANT an inuitive physics simulation tool similar in interface to armadillo run, but with magnets, joints/hinges/pulleys, 2d/3d building/simulation, buoyancy!, viscosity!, air/liquid pressure!, etc.
i downloaded "working model" and installed it in demo mode, but in the 2 times that ive opened it, i could only intuitively create some simple shapes and watch them fall when i pressed play.
armadillo run + more tools/materials + a much more accurate simulation engine = an easier path to successful designs in the public domain, magnet, gravity, buoyancy, air/liquid pressure, and leverage motors specifically.
This is my first post here. Hi everyone.
seanthelight@gmail.com
I agree Chas Campbell's wheel looks promising. http://youtube.com/watch?v=2qyvX9j5i3U
The best page to start understanding the challenges of Gravity Wheel can be found in Wikipedia at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
Quote from: SeanTheLight on March 02, 2008, 12:07:58 AM
i downloaded "working model" and installed it in demo mode, but in the 2 times that ive opened it, i could only intuitively create some simple shapes and watch them fall when i pressed play.
seanthelight@gmail.com
G'day sean,
Have a look at the anchor tool in Working Model, This allows you to fix in space whatever component needs it.
Hans von Lieven
BTW, your file will nor run in the demo version
OK i thought i quit but really i needed to finish my unsuccesful model...LOL
I thought like so many it was inches away, but. I am overweight by 50% almost 90% of the time and still the 10% thats not overweighted to the prominent side allows the wheel to find a spot of equilibrium. It has caused me to make a major shift in my thinking. I believe that the wheel actually has to work with just one weoght or pair of weights, whatever the builder chooses.
The pulsing is the wheel starting over at TDC and beginning its next revolution. But to build the wheel with the thought that another separate set of weights is helping you lift the rising pair is wrong ..."i believe". i could be very wrong ;)
My tests from here on will consist of just finding a way to get one weight completely around the wheel by itself....
I can draw tons of pictures with theoretical overweighting but it seems from my humble and inefficient first attemtp that a working picture is not enough. I was bitten by the PM bug only several weeks ago and would like to also know if their is a support group for those trying to quit. I has consumed to much time already. Just kidding.
My coworker jokingly mentioned that the search for perpetual motion may be the only thing that is perpetual about it.. Oh well
my 2 Cents. good luck to all.
Quote from: hansvonlieven on March 02, 2008, 07:35:21 PM
G'day sean,
Have a look at the anchor tool in Working Model, This allows you to fix in space whatever component needs it.
Hans von Lieven
BTW, your file will nor run in the demo version
Thank you Hans for the input on working model. (I've decided to go through all available tutorials instead of asking any more questions).
Ive made a video to show the gravity wheel design. I tried posting it to youtube, but apparently there is a delay between when you upload the video, and when it appears (if at all?). So instead of waiting for that, I've posted the video to rapidshare, you can find it here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/97405195/ASRautovideo_05.avi.html
If this is worth a seperate thread, let me know so we can discuss it. If not, enjoy the amateur video show. ;)
Sorry sean,
I cannot get your avi to work. my machine tells me the file is corrupt.
Hans von Lieven
Well thats frustrating. Perhaps it was the video codec I used?
Any suggestions on how or where i could upload a video file so that it is available for others to watch?
Is an extremely slow turning perpetual motion wheel even worth the effort, if it cannot generate significant working torque?
Quote from: Dgraphic911 on March 05, 2008, 04:37:21 PM
I believe that the wheel actually has to work with just one weoght or pair of weights, whatever the builder chooses.
The pulsing is the wheel starting over at TDC and beginning its next revolution. But to build the wheel with the thought that another separate set of weights is helping you lift the rising pair is wrong ..."i believe". i could be very wrong ;)
My tests from here on will consist of just finding a way to get one weight completely around the wheel by itself....
Interesting theory. What force will you be using to raise the weight back into starting position? (or in magnet motor terms, how will you push it through the gate). Gravity exerts a downward force (towards center of earth) on all the mass in your wheel evenly. putitng a single weight in the wheel, almost assures there is no other force available to overcome "gate" in the first weights path.
My wheel is "pulling in" the weight on the gate side, to create an imbalance on the weight side (lever). Normally this system fails because the hinged weights also have a gate they need to pass through (the "flipping over" at the top of rotation), the weight should have been "standing" at top dead center, to reflect the correct starting point. the tension/spring effect of the cloth on my wheel is regulating this motion, to:
1) prevent the weight from moving past the gate in the first place (limiting the fall angle).
2) springing the weight back into starting position as it nears top dead center
As stated in my last post, I've made a video of my wheel but am having trouble sharing it with others. Help in regards to that would be appreciated.
SeanTheLight
What is your youtube name so I can see the video of your wheel for I cant find it on the link.
Well turns out youtube found my avi as corrupt also. I used vp61 codec, and as great a codec as it was for recording, its been an absolute nightmare for playback on others computers. :\
so, currently there is no video that others can watch, but there is a vp61 video I've already made and uploaded. I'm now in the process of looking for better settings or a better program to re-record a demonstration video. I tried to record using microsoft video 1 codec, and the file size was > 200mb.
summary: armadillo run level and vp61 video are available, anything else I will need help with or some time to figure it out on my own.